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From: US4RMC::"diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu"
To:   DIY_EFI-Digest at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subj: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #196

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DIY_EFI Digest              Friday, 12 July 1996        Volume 01 : Number 196

In this issue:

	Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers
	RE: Bosch ECU Schematics
	Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers
	re: Re: cypress FPGA tools
	Re: Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers
	ALDL Communications...
	Re: Bosch Motronic AFM Spring Tension - Further Comments
	Re: Bosch Motronic AFM Spring Tension - Further Comments
	RE: GM mass airflow sensor
	Re: ALDL Communications...
	Re: GM Mass Airflow Sensor
	RE: EFI

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the 
DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ljp2 at ml471.CC.Lehigh.EDU (Louis J. Plebani)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:51:52 EDT
Subject: Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers

As part of my efi project I need to fabricate a manifold for my 427 ci FE
block Ford. In order to evaluate design alternatives, I would like to be
aware of the availability and price of potential components. Could someone
suggest suppliers for injectors, fuel rails, throttle bodies, Weber throttle
bodies (with injector boss), pumps, regulators, etc.

    Lou Plebani
    ljp2 at ml471.cc.lehigh.edu

------------------------------

From: "Orin Harding" <NAMGBR at msn.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 08:54:55 UT
Subject: RE: Bosch ECU Schematics

I don't know if this will be what you're looking for, but there is a company 
in the UK that makes what they call an "implant" for the BOSCH Motronic.  This 
allows complete user programming of the Motronic ECU.  The company is:
General Engine Management Systems Limited
Unit A1/D, Thorpe Techno Park
Crabtree Road, Egham, Surrey, TW2 8RN, England
Phone: +44 (0) 784 470525  Fax: +44 (0) 784 470527
Contact name: Richard Armitage

Hope this helps
Orin

Primary e-mail address: orin at deltacp.com
Secondary e-mail address: NAMGBR at msn.net
Check our WEB site:  www.deltacp.com
Phone/Fax: (910) 854-3232
Mobil Phone: (910) 601-8418

- ----------
From: 	owner-diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu on behalf of John Dammeyer
Sent: 	Thursday, July 11, 1996 7:33 AM
To: 	diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: Bosch ECU Schematics

At 06:09 PM 10/07/1996 -0400, you wrote:
>At 02:31 PM 6/11/96 +0000, you wrote:
>>I am looking for Bosch ECU Schematics for the following cars:
>>
>>BMW 530i, 1978
>>Datsun 280Z, 1975-1978
>>Datsun/Nissan 280ZX, 1979-1983 (incl. turbo).
>>
>>If anyone has any schematics for the ECUs for these cars, any or all 
>>of them, in any format, please let me know.  Also, if anyone knows of 
>>any good source of information on these systems, I'd love to see it.
>>

As I understand it the Bosch uses the CAN bus for communications.  Your
first step in reverse engineering or even monitoring the system would be to
determine which two wires make up RT+ and RT-.  Then attach a suitable CAN
card monitor and eavesdrop.  Coupled with logging other real time info such
as engine RPM there is a likelyhood that you would be able to determine
which messages say what.  But.... other than reporting some sort of status
or replacing completely a particular module I'm not sure what you'd do with 
it.

John.

Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud,
with arrows in their backs.
Automation Artisans Inc.      Ph. 604-544-4950
6468 Loganberry Place         Fax 604-544-4954
Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 7E6

------------------------------

From: Flavio.Corradini at bologna.marelli.it
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 16:34:28 +0200
Subject: Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers

- --openmail-part-007fa628-00000001
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> As part of my efi project I need to fabricate a manifold for my 427 ci FE
> block Ford. In order to evaluate design alternatives, I would like to be
> aware of the availability and price of potential components. Could someone
> suggest suppliers for injectors, fuel rails, throttle bodies, Weber throttle
> bodies (with injector boss), pumps, regulators, etc.
> 
>     Lou Plebani
>     ljp2 at ml471.cc.lehigh.edu
> 

- --openmail-part-007fa628-00000001
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After Market EFI Systems:

Magneti Marelli - Weber UK
42-46 Somers Road - Rugby
Warwickshire CV22 7DH - Great Britain
Tel. 44-1788/532302 - Fax 1788/532307


OEM EFI Systems:

Magneti Marelli - Weber USA
37483 Interchange Drive
Farmington Hills, MI 48335 - USA
Tel. 1-810/4715513 - Fax 810/4715530

- --openmail-part-007fa628-00000001
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+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| Magneti Marelli S.p.A.   Flavio Corradini                    |
| Engine Control Division  EMail: corradini at bologna.marelli.it |
| Via Timavo, 33           Tel.: +39 51 6157.835/6157.011      |
| I-40134 Bologna (ITALY)  Fax.: +39 51 6157.782/6157.020      |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my firm|
+--------------------------------------------------------------+

- --openmail-part-007fa628-00000001--

------------------------------

From: SRavet at bangate.compaq.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 9:53:39 CDT
Subject: re: Re: cypress FPGA tools

Darrell Norquay <dnorquay at awinc.com> Wrote:
| 
| Don't you mean Warp2?  Warp4 is the full enchilada, timing simulator and
| all, and it sells for US$5000!  I know, 'cause I just took a Cypress VHDL
| seminar last week, and got a copy of Warp2, along with a CD full of
| libraries, Warp2  for several platforms including the MAC and Sun, the 
VHDL
| text, and a 1 day intensive VHDL course for CDN$99.

Yes, WARP 2 is the package I was referring to.  Warp 2 is the full 
enchilada for CPLD devices.  Cypress CPLD parts have a very simple timing 
model, so the simulator is included.  For FPGAs, you do need the more 
expensive package, which also includes schematic capture, etc.

| 
|  >The download cable/software wasn't available at the time, although it 
|  >should be now.  I need to call back and see.  The download 
cable/software 
|  >works with all of the Cypress "ISR" chips (in system reprogrammable).  
| 
| The guys at the seminar gave me the impression that they haven't released
| their ISP devices yet, due out in August, I think.  They didn't mention 
the
| download cable + software.  Warp2 just generates JEDEC files which you 
need
| a pricey device programmer to use.

I'm pretty sure they offerred me some samples of the ISP devices, but maybe 
not.  Once they are available, if they aren't already, you won't need the 
pricey programmer.  That's what makes this deal so attractive.  For $200 
($99 for WARP 2, and $99 for the download software/cable) you can program 
your own CPLDs in VHDL.  Cypress is pretty generous with samples, also.



Steve Ravet
sravet at bangate.compaq.com
Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce...

------------------------------

From: Sandy <sandyg at interramp.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:23:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers

MSD Fuel systems in Texas has a bunch of stuff. Also you may want to find
TURBO magazine (not all places have it) but they always have a bunch of adds
for Injectors, and things like that.

At 08:51 AM 7/11/96 EDT, you wrote:
>As part of my efi project I need to fabricate a manifold for my 427 ci FE
>block Ford. In order to evaluate design alternatives, I would like to be
>aware of the availability and price of potential components. Could someone
>suggest suppliers for injectors, fuel rails, throttle bodies, Weber throttle
>bodies (with injector boss), pumps, regulators, etc.
>
>    Lou Plebani
>    ljp2 at ml471.cc.lehigh.edu
>

------------------------------

From: Donald Whisnant <dewhisna at ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:00:13 -0400
Subject: ALDL Communications...

A while back, several of you guys were hooking up your ALDL serial
connectors to your pc's ...  I believe I even received a copy of the
software to change the pc serial port to something near 8192 baud...
What I was wondering (since I'm planning to try to hook mine up
this weekend and do some reading) is what the signal levels are
on the aldl serial line ...  Is it 0 to 12v or is it 0 to 5v??  And,
is it inverted??  I was thinking about using either MAX203 or MAX233
RS-232 signal level converters, but they are designed for 0-5 with
standard non-inverted inputs ...  If it is inverted or is 0-12 
instead of 0-5, I'll need to put a transistor or two on the front
of the MAX chip to change it's level and/or polarity...  Either way
is no big deal and I'm hoping someone can answer this so that I
won't have to drag the oscilloscope outside to check it...

Thanks ....
Donald Whisnant
dewhisna at ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

From: Todd Knighton <knighton at net-quest.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:07:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Bosch Motronic AFM Spring Tension - Further Comments

Brad Anesi wrote:
> 
> Herewith the opinion of Don (ex-Alfa, now Fiat R&D):
> 
> 9. Significant changes cannot be made by DIY, nor without a dyno.

	Not so, key driveability issues can and always will be attacked 
by in car testing.  No dyno I've found yet can tell me how the thing 
will lurch along in traffic.

> 11. There are other ways of increasing fuel delivery such as raising rail
> pressure, larger nozzles, with larger AFM. But the intake runners and
> valves have to be sized accordingly.

	But why, when the maps are so readily available?

> 12. Our experiences with DIY modified EFI systems do not yield
> measurable differences.
	
	We've taken 911 Carrera's from 214 hp Normally aspirated to 
250+hp normally aspirated and all the way to 765 Hp turbocharged, I tend 
to think that's measureable!!
> 
> Conclusion: for DIY, it seems more cost effective to use carburetors and
> a modern ignition system, leaving original EFI system intact for use later
> at resale.

	This boy must be "SATAN", telling people on the DIY EFI list 
that Fuel injection should only be used later for resale and that 
carburetors are the only way to go.  What a Schmuck.  I'll put the OE 
EFI stuff up against carburetors any day.

Todd Knighton
Protomotive Engineering.

------------------------------

From: matthew at viewlogic.com (Matthew Wallis)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 17:28:11 EDT
Subject: Re: Bosch Motronic AFM Spring Tension - Further Comments

>  
>  > 12. Our experiences with DIY modified EFI systems do not yield
>  > measurable differences.
Todd,

Can you give some more details on this change.

>  
>      We've taken 911 Carrera's from 214 hp Normally aspirated to 
>  250+hp normally aspirated and all the way to 765 Hp turbocharged, I tend 
>  to think that's measureable!!
>  > 
>  > Conclusion: for DIY, it seems more cost effective to use carburetors and
>  > a modern ignition system, leaving original EFI system intact for use later
>  > at resale.

------------------------------

From: john spears <speartec at iquest.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 18:54 EST
Subject: RE: GM mass airflow sensor

I've seen several questions/comments about the output of GM MAF sensors. I
ran an airflow vs. frequency output today on the LT1 MAF that is used on the
high output aluminum head version (F and Y car) and also on the LT4 (Y car).
This is the largest diameter MAF sensor (3.5" O.D.) used on GM engines I
beleive, so it would support the most HP. The flow is in grams/second and
the output is in kilohertz.

         5gm/sec =  2 khz (idle)
        50gm/sec = 5.0khz
       100gm/sec = 6.7khz
       150gm/sec = 7.7khz
       200gm/sec = 8.5khz
       250gm/sec = 9.2khz
       300gm/sec = 9.7khz
       335gm/sec = 10 khz (max)

I hope that's of some value.

 John Spears

------------------------------

From: Gary W Harris <Gary_W_Harris at ccm.ch.intel.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 17:24:00 PDT
Subject: Re: ALDL Communications...

Text item: 

Don,

The serial data is 0--5 volt simplex, and needs to be converted to RS-232 for 
the PC.  I use a maxim chip powered from a 9-volt battery to do this.  A diode 
and pull-up resistor are also necessary to "wire-or" the PC TxD to the ECU's 
simplex data line.  This works great!  I have a schematic, but it's in Viewlogic
format.  I can snail-mail you if you send me your address.

Gary Harris

A while back, several of you guys were hooking up your ALDL serial
connectors to your pc's ...  I believe I even received a copy of the
software to change the pc serial port to something near 8192 baud...
What I was wondering (since I'm planning to try to hook mine up
this weekend and do some reading) is what the signal levels are
on the aldl serial line ...  Is it 0 to 12v or is it 0 to 5v??  And,
is it inverted??  I was thinking about using either MAX203 or MAX233
RS-232 signal level converters, but they are designed for 0-5 with
standard non-inverted inputs ...  If it is inverted or is 0-12
instead of 0-5, I'll need to put a transistor or two on the front
of the MAX chip to change it's level and/or polarity...  Either way
is no big deal and I'm hoping someone can answer this so that I
won't have to drag the oscilloscope outside to check it...

Thanks ....
Donald Whisnant
dewhisna at ix.netcom.com

Text item: External Message Header

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***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***.

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------------------------------

From: jimmy staton <staton at icon.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:31:37 -0500
Subject: Re: GM Mass Airflow Sensor

jimmy staton wrote:
> 
> RABBITT_Andrew at mv8.orbeng.com.au wrote:
> >
> > >>>I'm curious if anybody has a clue as to the upper (frequency
> > output) limit of the currently used GM mass-airflow sensor.<<<
> >
> > does 9600 Hz make any sense?
> 
> the GM manual I have has the freq listed as 30HZ-150HZ unless that has
> changed, last 1 I checked was out of an 1982 Firebird and that was
> right.

The GM training manual I have lists 2.8L,3.0L,3.8L as freq based type
it lists the 5.0L,5.7L & Bosch as analog.

------------------------------

From: Land Shark <lndshrk at xmission.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:31:53 -0600
Subject: RE: EFI

FORGIVE ME ALL .. I just HAD to answer this one .. a bit late due to the
holiday, but REPLY I MUST .. 

At 16:28 7/6/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Feel free to share with the EFI DIY list. Herewith the opinion of Don
>(ex-Alfa, now Fiat R&D):

 Ok .. well .. IMHO .. It's time for Fiat to hire me then..

>The EFI discussion is difficult: one must first know if the system is
>analog or digital and to which degree of autoadaptivity is provided.
>Example: Fiat uses/has used _many_ executions of Bosch Motronic alone,
>many L-Jet, Monotronic, Weber-Marelli, Rochester, Hitachi....

 We are talking about Bosch Motronic.. Digital Motor Electronics utilizing
 Multi-Point Fuel Injectors .. I have worked on Alfa, Ferrari, BMW, Porsche
 and VW systems .. my expertise is with mostly BMW .. others like Todd
 Knighton are the gurus at things like Porsches ..

>1. Forget that the closed loop O2 sensor function will correct, in the
>end, any minor changes upstream. It will, but that does not seem to be the
>issue. We talk open loop.

 Fine ..

>2. Spring tension makes a difference only during _transient_ movement and
>will enrichen until steady state, where it has no effect. There is no
>effect at WOT as you are already using the longest pulse found in the
>look-up table (MAP) for that set of parameters.

 Umm .. Motronic does NOT look up PULSE WIDTHS .. 

 It MEASURES air .. calculates LOAD from AIR and RPM and a constant (based
 upon injector size) then corrects for operation conditions (maps)
 to yeild injector PW ..

 Changing the "air" measurement DOES indeed change the AFR ..

 Not to argue this to death, but I've HAD cars on the 5 gas and SEEN it 
 happen when I had to UNDO the "tweaking" that someone had done to the
 "spring" in the AFM ..

>3. Remember, electrons are faster than air!

 And ..

>4. The base calibration is not always based on vane position: depends on
>system.

 On EVERY Motronic I have disassembled .. the base cal is directly
 correlated to the AFM or AirMass sensor Voltage output ..

>5. Even open-loop, later generations use autoadaptivity, which further
>permits default corrections for components operating outside their spec.
>ranges, within the ROM map.

 I'd like to see this .. I have seen no adaption outside of closed loop
 functionality .. I'm ready to sign the Fiat NDA ..

>6. Aside from AFM vs inputs to controller, this signal is further
>corrected by rpm, load, temps, etc., always cross-checking table for
>correct fuel delivery before the O2 sensor.

 Yup .. these are the "operating conditions" I spoke of above ..

 Although LOAD is in fact the BASIS for the fuel injection and not
 a "correction" to it ..

>7. To see the effects, get a J.C. Whitney A/F checker.

 NO WAY! .. all that will tell you is ..

 RICH or LEAN .. and that is that ... U need either a UEGO setup
 or a BOSCH LA-2 system

>8. In systems with separate ignition controllers, more benefits can be had
>by changing the spark map.

 Why not in systems with integrated spark also .. maps are easy to tweak!

>9. Significant changes cannot be made by DIY, nor without a dyno.

 UNTRUE .. I have brought BMW M3's from 240 to 278HP with the Torque
 raised from 225 to 252 lb/ft at peak .. this is VERY significant
 and only a bit of that tuning was EVER done on a dyno ..

>10. Perceptions and stop-watch times do not always concur.

 No, but a state of the art DynoJet dyno never lies!

>11. There are other ways of increasing fuel delivery such as raising rail
>pressure, larger nozzles, with larger AFM. But the intake runners and
>valves have to be sized accordingly.

 All KLUDGES, it is much easier to apply a complex mathematical function
 to the existing fuel maps ..

>12. Our experiences with DIY modified EFI systems do not yield measurable
>differences.

 Well, Fiat .. loan me a car, and I'll tune it tighter than you've ever
 seen one tuned .. 

 Jim Conforti

------------------------------

End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #196
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