From gmd at tecinfo.com Fri Mar 1 02:58:33 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 02:58:33 GMT Subject: Just a few GM TPI Questions Message-ID: FYI, my '58 chevy likes the '89 5.7L TPI engine. Performance is very good. Should there be a very slight detection of detonation (knock) at idle with engine hot? What about slightly moderate knock at full throttle going say...70mph? NO code 42, or other est codes are present, 42 will set when 'set timing' connector is disconnected. Has any one noticed bad idle quality when the air cleaner is not installed (MAF was connected)? The problem seems to have 'fixed' itself after instaling the air cleaner and one of the missing PVC hoses. Could fine dirt affect a hot wire MAF? Thanks, GMD From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Fri Mar 1 03:09:52 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (dn) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 03:09:52 GMT Subject: Hi-resolution Crank angle sensor Message-ID: Peter Wales wrote: > Ah ha, now I see it. However, getting an asymetrically toothed flywheel > won't be easy. Would this still work if the pickup was moved away from the > tooth to make only the peak of the tooth effective, thus changing the m/s > ratio artificially. In a nutshell, yes. The distance from the sensor to the tooth will have a dramatic effect on how much of the tooth's width the sensor "sees". This adjustment could, in fact, be made either mechanically or electronically. > As a matter of interest the Nissan 300 ZX Twin Turbo distributor has 2 > sensors in it. One reads crank angle from the 360 lines on the disc and the > other reads an encoded cylinder number from the 3 digit code. Japanese > engineering! I was actually surprised that no one was doing this. (until now, that is) This is a combination of a relative position sensor (the 360 lines) and an absolute position sensor (the 3 digit coded portion of the wheel) There are many examples of commercially available encoders of both types, but to my knowledge there is no combination of the 2 used in industrial position sensing. For a DIS type system, should be easy to substitute an optical encoder for the guts of the distributor and get any timing accuracy you want. Optical encoders are notoriously fragile, however, and you may have a hard time finding one that will live a long and fruitful life in the underhood environment... -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mymove at serv01.net-link.net Fri Mar 1 03:43:52 1996 From: mymove at serv01.net-link.net (Bill Sarkozy) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 03:43:52 GMT Subject: Totally tubular, man Message-ID: At 03:04 PM 2/29/96 -0800, you wrote: > >Where can I find mandrel bent "U" shaped aluminum and steel tubing for >fabricating intake and exhaust plumbing? > > Dan Bocek > dan at di.com > > Larson Engineering, Taylor, MI (313) 292-6643, among other places. Also, most header manufacturers supply "assorted bend" kits for headers, although they are all steel and are probably a little heavy for intake plumbing. Good luck...... From MTaylorfi at aol.com Fri Mar 1 04:56:45 1996 From: MTaylorfi at aol.com (MTaylorfi at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 04:56:45 GMT Subject: LO VS. HI Message-ID: What is the dynamic difference between low impedence peak-hold injectors and high impedence injectors. Tell me Tell me Tell me. See ya, Mike From andrewd at axonet.com.au Fri Mar 1 06:02:57 1996 From: andrewd at axonet.com.au (Andrew Dalgleish) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 06:02:57 GMT Subject: Hi-resolution Crank angle sensor Message-ID: On Thursday, 29 February 1996 20:01, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: [snip] > position sensing. For a DIS type system, should be easy to substitute an > optical encoder for the guts of the distributor and get any timing accuracy > you want. [snip] > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca > Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell > Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 > Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 > @ + > < > __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > I tried this about 10 years ago when I did my first 6809-based ignition system on a Nissan A14. The trouble was my system wasn't particularly reliable so I had to carry a normal distributor in the boot and swap them to get home :-) You also have a small amount of mechanical back-lash in the distributor drive. My ideal would be phase from the crank-shaft, and an index pulse from the cam-shaft for TDC. Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 From Mika.J.Tuominen at nmp.nokia.com Fri Mar 1 07:02:56 1996 From: Mika.J.Tuominen at nmp.nokia.com (Mika.J.Tuominen at nmp.nokia.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:02:56 GMT Subject: Ducted Fan Engine Message-ID: >If you reduce compression and fit a spark-ignition-system, you can = >use normal-gas without nitro and therefore won't have any corrosion = >inside the housing. Why not use use straight fuel with no nitro - no corrosion. (and yes, less power 10-15%) >A model-engine normally is very reliable for years (exept = >race-engines which sometimes make more than 32000 RPM!) Due to some experience, I agree... >But I would also prefer electrical motors.. I would say that, those are much easier to start! There is available very powerful electric motors to be used in electric r/c aeroplanes, those might be usable also. I think they = are available about same power levels as glow-plug model engines. Mika =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mika J. Tuominen Internet: mitu at nmoy.nmp.nokia.com Nokia Mobile Phones Ltd. Address: P.O.box 86, FIN-24101 Salo, Finland = From HIHA at GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Fri Mar 1 10:59:21 1996 From: HIHA at GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Hans Hintermaier) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:59:21 GMT Subject: ducted-fan-engine Message-ID: I wrote: >If you reduce compression and fit a spark-ignition-system, you can >use normal-gas without nitro and therefore won't have any corrosion >inside the housing. Sorry, I didn't read carefully! You were talking about jet-engines, not model-piston-engines. Of course, it wouldn't make too much sense with a piston-engine. This mailing-list also is a good english-training for me... Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de From jsg Fri Mar 1 11:10:12 1996 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:10:12 GMT Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) Message-ID: This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archives to all the mailing lists are available through Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". Digest mode is available for all of the mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe to the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW sites: diy_efi http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi efi332 http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html Other related sites: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/ http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu:80/hpe/hpe.html Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From renns at bserv.com Fri Mar 1 12:49:10 1996 From: renns at bserv.com (Roger Enns) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:49:10 GMT Subject: Totally tubular, man Message-ID: > >Where can I find mandrel bent "U" shaped aluminum and steel tubing for >fabricating intake and exhaust plumbing? > > Dan Bocek Check out the exhaust section of your JC Whitney catalog. They have a good selection of 45s, 90s, and 180s of various diameters. I have ordered a variety of sizes, and have been pleased with the product. Seems to me that all sizes were .050" wall thickness. Roger Enns (renns at bserv.com) From ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com Fri Mar 1 14:06:44 1996 From: ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com (ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:06:44 GMT Subject: Ducted Fan Engine Message-ID: I was referring to a Ducted Fan engine, which in my experience is a piston engine driving a fan, used in models of jet aircraft. I've been away from modeling for a couple of years, and other than one notable example, I was unaware that anyone had successfully built a model-size gas turbine. In general, model engines *are* long-lasting and basically reliable (I have some '70s vintage engines I wouldn't hesitate to fly again), but as a powerplant to drive a supercharger, there are better alternatives. How about a free-piston engine to drive the turbine directly? Or, yet, a combustion chamber (a la a real gas turbine engine) to generate hot gas? - Just another wacked-out thought... From knick at ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Fri Mar 1 15:03:21 1996 From: knick at ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Jens Knickmeyer) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:03:21 GMT Subject: Just a few GM TPI Questions Message-ID: wrote: > > Could fine dirt affect a hot wire MAF? I would say so. The Bosch hot wire systems clean the wire by heating it up after the engine is stopped. I do not know about other systems... Jens ('92 VW Polo-G40) From bs73 at prism.gatech.edu Fri Mar 1 15:16:44 1996 From: bs73 at prism.gatech.edu (Brad Sheridan) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:16:44 GMT Subject: LO VS. HI Message-ID: > > What is the dynamic difference between low impedence peak-hold injectors and > high impedence injectors. Tell me Tell me Tell me. > > Mike The low impedance injectors have a slightly shorter turn on time. Brad From BCLEMEN at CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU Fri Mar 1 15:48:06 1996 From: BCLEMEN at CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (bclemen@cms.cc.wayne.edu) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:48:06 GMT Subject: tubing and timing Message-ID: Alum. tubing bends can be purchased from: Woolf AircraftProd. 1-313-721-5330 GM's 2.2 4cyl. is currently using a 7 notch disc (6 even spaced 1 odd) on the crank and 1 notch disc on the cam for ign. From pjwales at magicnet.net Fri Mar 1 15:50:34 1996 From: pjwales at magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:50:34 GMT Subject: Ducted Fan Engine Message-ID: >How about a free-piston engine to drive the turbine directly? Or, yet, a >combustion chamber (a la a real gas turbine engine) to generate hot gas? > >- Just another wacked-out thought... You call that a whacked out thought? Try this. As you have plenty of gasoline on board so why not use a gasoline motor. A lawn mower engine or a weedwhacker would do nicely if geared up. It may not make enough power so you might have to turbocharge it. Which leads me to the final whacked out thought. Feed the exhaust from the weedwhacker engine into the input of the turbo thus using it as a backup boost generator. Connect the throttle of the weedwhacker to a servo controlled by boost pressure to maintain a closed loop system. Now you have full boost at idle. Thats a proper weedwhacker idea Peter Wales pjwales at magicnet.net President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From dschmidt at rain.org Fri Mar 1 15:55:48 1996 From: dschmidt at rain.org (David Schmidt) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:55:48 GMT Subject: Optical Dist sensors Message-ID: Nissan Sentras, and 240SX's from at least 91' up have this same setup, in case anyone wanted to tear one up from a junkyard. I would guess the Maxima has one too. It isn't just for their high end car! Dave > As a matter of interest the Nissan 300 ZX Twin Turbo distributor has 2 > sensors in it. One reads crank angle from the 360 lines on the disc and the > other reads an encoded cylinder number from the 3 digit code. Japanese > engineering! >I was actually surprised that no one was doing this. (until now, that is) From ehernan3 at ford.com Fri Mar 1 17:10:44 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:10:44 GMT Subject: Detonation at idle Message-ID: "Should there be a very slight detection of detonation (knock) at idle with engine hot?" No. You need ridiculous timing advace to knock at idle. You are probably(and unfortunately) hearing a mechanical problem such as piston slap or bad lifters. From mcmansp2 at u.washington.edu Fri Mar 1 19:48:29 1996 From: mcmansp2 at u.washington.edu (Sean McManus) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 19:48:29 GMT Subject: LO VS. HI Message-ID: Mike: If you want the "stuff" on injectors, pick up SAE Recommended Practice J1832. According to this document, peak and holds open with about a one msec delay and close with about a 1/2 ms delay. Saturated injectors open with about two ms delay and close with about a one ms delay. Seems that saturated works well on most applications, peak and hold more appropriate for engines with high specific output, say more than 100 hp/liter, where they need a lot of max flow but at the same time need good control for very small pulse widths (ie idle, low load and rpm). Sean McManus University of Washington Formula SAE Yamaha FZR 600 power On Thu, 29 Feb 1996 MTaylorfi at aol.com wrote: > What is the dynamic difference between low impedence peak-hold injectors and > high impedence injectors. Tell me Tell me Tell me. > > See ya, > > Mike > From tarun at aoi.ultranet.com Fri Mar 1 20:50:40 1996 From: tarun at aoi.ultranet.com (Tarun Patel) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 20:50:40 GMT Subject: Totally tubular, man Message-ID: Is JC Whitney catalog ON-Line ?? From einarp at ade.no Fri Mar 1 21:18:58 1996 From: einarp at ade.no (einarp) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 21:18:58 GMT Subject: Hi-res crank sensor. Message-ID: It seems I was not expressing myself very exact when I presented this: * x _ _ _ _ _ _ _/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_ I should also have mentioned that I assumed the sensor signals would be run through a zero crossing detector first. Like for example the LM1815. A short pulse would come out of it starting at the zero crossing of each sensor. That will again coincide with the point where it is "on the top of" the tooth, like "*" in the above drawing. The pulses out of "X" will come inbetween the pulses from "*". Set the pulse time short enough that the pulses from the two sensors will not be active at the same time even at the highest RPM. It should look something like this: __/\ _____/\ ______/\ _______/\ ____ Sensor "*" output \/ \/ \/ \/ ______/\ _______/\ ______/\ ______/\ __ Sensor "x" output \/ \/ \/ \/ ___II________II________II________II_____ Zero Cross "*" ________II________II________II________II_ Zero Cross "x" ___II___II___II___II___II___II___II___ OR of the above My point with this is that each of the two sensors are detected at a point of their waveform that is not dependent on the shape of the tooth, or the distance sensor/tooth. It's only depending on one sensor being above the middle of the tooth at the same time the other is midway between two teeth. If we had a nice sinewave shaped signal out of the sensor, it would have been much simpler. We could just detect positive and negative peaks of one sensor. But look at the sensor signal and you will see it looks more like my ASCII drawing than a sinewave at low RPM. It will approach a sinewave as speed increases and the "_" part (of the sensor signal) shrinks. I think some of the the previous postings assume a sinewave signal. For the DIY'er with lots of time on hand: Log the time interval between zero crossings related to each cylinder during cranking, and you can tell if one cylinder is low on compression relative to the others. It should be possible assuming you have 300 pulses per revolution as you would get from the above picking pulses off of a 150 tooth flywheel ring. -- einarp at ade.no ( Maserati Biturbo Spyder ) From gmd at tecinfo.com Fri Mar 1 23:25:46 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 23:25:46 GMT Subject: Detonation at idle Message-ID: At 12:09 PM 3/1/96 +0500, you wrote: >"Should there be a very slight detection of detonation (knock) at idle > with engine hot?" > >No. You need ridiculous timing advace to knock at idle. You are >probably(and unfortunately) hearing a mechanical problem such as >piston slap or bad lifters. > ====================================================== On my last 350 TBI engine, I noticed that if the engine was hot (190 deg. F) and the inlet air was hot, if you advanced the timeing you would hear what sounded like detonation. You did not have to go far! When the timeing was retarded the sounds would go away. Let me also add that you don't hear the sound just off idle and it's around the same sound level of the injectors clicks. The hood must be up to even hear the sounds. When under full throttle, I'm sure that it's slightly detonating. I'm not sure if the ECM is detecting 100% of the detanation. I once herd that the GM ESC will rattle just a little, some times, at full load. I've herd a TBI rattle with the nock sensor disconnected at full load. My TPI is no way near this. BTW 79,000 miles on the clock, car was driven every day, auh 'aggressively' but well pampered as far as maintenance is concerned. It kissed another car. Thanks for your input Dudes. GMD From jgn at li.net Sat Mar 2 01:14:40 1996 From: jgn at li.net (John Napoli) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 01:14:40 GMT Subject: Totally tubular, man Message-ID: It is not, but they have an 800 #. BTW, for mandrel-bent tubing, try your local muffler shop! Regards, John On Fri, 1 Mar 1996, Tarun Patel wrote: > Is JC Whitney catalog ON-Line ?? > > From samco at halcyon.com Sat Mar 2 18:23:12 1996 From: samco at halcyon.com (Sam Stoney) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 18:23:12 GMT Subject: u-bends Message-ID: >From: renns at bserv.com (Roger Enns) >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:48:34 GMT >Subject: Re: Totally tubular, man > >> >>Where can I find mandrel bent "U" shaped aluminum and steel tubing for >>fabricating intake and exhaust plumbing? >> >> Dan Bocek > >Check out the exhaust section of your JC Whitney catalog. I've bought a lot of tubing from JC Whitney. They are by far the lowest price I've found but they are inconsistant in both delivery and tube wall thickness. Usually I get 20 guage, but ometimes it comes as 18 guage or thicker. The stuff is real good for test pipes but if you're goung to make something real nice and chrome it or something go to Aircone in Henderson, NV. These guys are much more expensive, though. They will also make up tapers and colectors. As far as other materials: Kinsler sells AL U-bends; funny thing, they're not cheap. Not a very good selection, either. I don't know of another source for AL and I'd like to know of one. Aircraft Spruce sells thinwall Stainless u-bends. Their # is 800 824 1930. They have all sorts of other materials in their catalogue, and they sell in small quantities, too. Anybody got a lead for TI tubing? Sam From pecampbe at mtu.edu Sat Mar 2 21:56:53 1996 From: pecampbe at mtu.edu (Paul E. Campbell) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 21:56:53 GMT Subject: Hi-resolution Crank angle sensor Message-ID: Darrell A. Norquay wrote: > > As a matter of interest the Nissan 300 ZX Twin Turbo distributor has 2 > > sensors in it. One reads crank angle from the 360 lines on the disc and the > > other reads an encoded cylinder number from the 3 digit code. Japanese > > engineering! > > I was actually surprised that no one was doing this. (until now, that is) > This is a combination of a relative position sensor (the 360 lines) and an > absolute position sensor (the 3 digit coded portion of the wheel) There > are many examples of commercially available encoders of both types, but > to my knowledge there is no combination of the 2 used in industrial > position sensing. For a DIS type system, should be easy to substitute an > optical encoder for the guts of the distributor and get any timing accuracy > you want. Optical encoders are notoriously fragile, however, and you may > have a hard time finding one that will live a long and fruitful life in the > underhood environment... Okay..I didn't bother to mention this because I figured it was more trouble than it was worth but I was thinking in terms of optical encoders instead of magnetic ones because optical encoders are infinitely easier to work with for home construction because I can simply take a flat disk and drill hole patterns in it with much better precision than I think I could get away with making a toothed ring/gear. As for survivability, I think the only way to get an optical encoder to survive is to get it really good and sealed up. I'm thinking that the part that holds the interruptor modules should be part of a shroud that totally encases the optical encoder wheel except for maybe a hole at the bottom for drainage and a hole for the shaft that is turning. As for using the standard white/black markings, I don't think this is a good idea. Putting a hole completely through a disk lets you put sensors on either side and as long as the holes don't get clogged (easier to clean than munging up a nice optical encoder pattern on plain white paper) is probably just as easy to make. Also, standard emitter/receiver pairs are available for about $3 (check a Digikey catalog) that are already set up for that arrangement. The advantage of the magnetic encoder is that there's much less opportunity for the disk to get munged up since it is just a gear and will tend to centerfuge off anything that isn't sufficiently sticky (assuming you have it exposed). I don't know what your controller would think of having the encoder immersed half in water or some really nasty mud though. Now..to comment on a few other things that were said..the reason I was thinking in terms of totally analog PLL's instead of digital ones is that in analog, making up the various filters in the loops requires only a couple fairly cheap op-amps. Reading the resulting output can be done with counters. I was trying to come up with a way that the CPU could just read an external 8 bit register whenever it was ready and the hardware would handle most of the filtering before it got to the CPU. I figured a simple 1 or 2 pole filter on a PLL (which inherently cleans up noise and does the differentiation on the input signal) would be a cheaper and simpler route than doing all the data smoothing/cleaning in the CPU. You'll have to use an A/D on the error voltage then (okay..you can do slope integration and such but it's still A/D when you get down to it), but the loop does all the filtering. I was still trying to think in terms of something that could be easily constructed for the .1 kilobuck range. But..I just found out about the ADSP2181 this week so I may be tempted back into the totally digital filtering realm (the problem with the $10 ADSP2105 was the development system cost..the ADSP2181 development system is $90 which changes the picture significantly). From Mitsu16v at aol.com Sun Mar 3 03:44:48 1996 From: Mitsu16v at aol.com (Mitsu16v at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 03:44:48 GMT Subject: Ducted Fan Engine Message-ID: In a message dated 96-03-01 09:43:50 EST, you write: >How about a free-piston engine to drive the turbine directly? Or, yet, a >combustion chamber (a la a real gas turbine engine) to generate hot gas? > > Pardon my density... but... what IS a free-piston engine? From Mitsu16v at aol.com Sun Mar 3 03:50:50 1996 From: Mitsu16v at aol.com (Mitsu16v at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 03:50:50 GMT Subject: Ducted Fan Engine Message-ID: In a message dated 96-03-01 03:17:46 EST, you write: >There is available very powerful electric motors to be used in >electric r/c aeroplanes, those might be usable also. I think they >are available about same power levels as glow-plug model engines. Yeah there are some available that put out comparable levels of power.. but they're mainly equivalent to .049's and the like.. and when you put them in the high heat environs under the hood, the lifespan and the efficiency are going to go WAY down... :< Guess I'm gonna have to spring for that full on exhaust manifold and turbo system... :< Anybody got any other ideas about increasing the power?? I have heard there are some "run-what-ya-brung" type things to increase efficiency By tuning... From chanwe at ecf.toronto.edu Sun Mar 3 17:16:42 1996 From: chanwe at ecf.toronto.edu (CHAN WEN YEN) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 17:16:42 GMT Subject: rough idle -- help Message-ID: I'm repairing a 1990 Acura Integra with the 1.8 l engine (no MAF sensor) . The engine has a rough idle when the ambient air temperature is below zero and the engine is warm. The idle will dip as low as 500 RPM when the brake is applied (the car is not automatic) and will eventually settle just below the normal idle (normal idle - 750). The idle will also fluctuate +/- 50 RPM @ idle. During periods of rough idling the vacuum fluctuates rapidly +/- 1/4 inHG about 19 inHG. I have changed the air and fuel filters, the spark plugs, the distributor cap, the PCV valve, reset the base idle & advance, set the valve lash, removed the carbon from the intake manifold, throttle plate & valves and used about 4 doses of fuel injector cleaner (motormaster brand). After changing the air & fuel filters the idle was smooth & stable for about 5 min. I would appreciate any advice. Thanks. WenYen Chan chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca p.s. has anyone considered using 1) a nitromethane/methanol fuel blend (ie: model airplane fuel)? 2) a scuba tank with a high flow regulator feeding the intake instead of turbo. From bwarb at turbo.win-uk.net Sun Mar 3 19:57:44 1996 From: bwarb at turbo.win-uk.net (Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:57:44 GMT Subject: Turbo Lag Message-ID: Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, but it appears to me that this idea uses a pump of some kind to produce a tank of compressed air under low-load conditions. This tank of compressed air is then used when needed, to drive a compressor to produce, yes you've guessed it, compressed air. Once you've got your tank of compressed air, why not regulate it and blow it straight though your throttle body and cut out all those mechanical losses inherrant in the second pump/compressor ? Brian Warburton > >>Check this out, an air motor connected to a centrifugal blower. Air tools >frequently turn at very high speeds. A mid size air motor might be the >ticket. Imagine a small air tank and an electric or engine driven pump. >During low load, the pump tanks the air under high pressure. When boost is >needed, high flow solenoids open up and all hell breaks lose. Almost no >parasitic losses and instant gratification! This should be possible with off >the shelf components. As always, EFI would be needed to make the system >really work. >> > GMD From mymove at serv01.net-link.net Mon Mar 4 00:47:51 1996 From: mymove at serv01.net-link.net (Bill Sarkozy) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:47:51 GMT Subject: Turbo Lag Message-ID: At 07:40 PM 3/3/96, you wrote: >Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, but it >appears to me that this idea uses a pump of some kind to produce a >tank of compressed air under low-load conditions. This tank of >compressed air is then used when needed, to drive a compressor to >produce, yes you've guessed it, compressed air. Once you've got >your tank of compressed air, why not regulate it and blow it >straight though your throttle body and cut out all those mechanical >losses inherrant in the second pump/compressor ? > > Brian Warburton > >> >>>Check this out, an air motor connected to a centrifugal blower. Air tools >>frequently turn at very high speeds. A mid size air motor might be the >>ticket. Imagine a small air tank and an electric or engine driven pump. >>During low load, the pump tanks the air under high pressure. When boost is >>needed, high flow solenoids open up and all hell breaks lose. Almost no >>parasitic losses and instant gratification! This should be possible with off >>the shelf components. As always, EFI would be needed to make the system >>really work. >>> >> GMD > > I think you'll find that an air motor used to spin up a centrifugal compressor would require air at substantial pressure (i.e. >100 psi). A centrifugal turbine wouldn't have a prayer of delivering air at that pressure. You'd need the equivilent of an electric transfomer to convert low-pressure/high-volume air to the high-pressure/low-volume air required by the air motor.....or else compress the air directly using a (gasp!) belt-driven vane or piston compressor. The beauty of the turbocharger is that both the input and output sections are of similar "impedance" and no transformation is required. Bill From arthurok at ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 4 05:38:47 1996 From: arthurok at ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 05:38:47 GMT Subject: Turbo Lag Message-ID: i think a high output alternator w high voltage high frequency out put and some sort of electronic regulator device remember a 300 amp alternator could be made quite small and being 3 phase is easily rectified to 150 or 300 vdc maximum and being a rotating field alt. the power output could be easily regulated all you need is a special field or use a step up trans former . question ': howmany horse power does a turbochager TURBINE develope? i dont think it'sreally that much. few hp ???. believe me an electronic approach is much better than air .;but i do LIKE the hydralic motor approach but those thing turn quite slow and speed increasers arent always that reliable . From gfl at dilbert.hpl.hp.com Mon Mar 4 10:18:58 1996 From: gfl at dilbert.hpl.hp.com (Gerald Luiz) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 10:18:58 GMT Subject: Optical Dist sensors Message-ID: Actually, the 300ZX don't have a distributor...the disc is attached to the end of a camshaft. I didn't understand the comment about reading the code to determine the cyl #. They have the 360 slots as described. Concentric with those, they have holes every 60 deg., since it runs at cam speed and 6 cyl. These inner slots alternate widths and #1 (0 deg) is different from all the rest. If anyone is interested, I can post the manual page (not that much info except for the picture). Gerald Luiz gluiz at hpl.hp.com From pecampbe at mtu.edu Mon Mar 4 14:46:36 1996 From: pecampbe at mtu.edu (Paul E. Campbell) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:46:36 GMT Subject: Optical Dist sensors Message-ID: > Actually, the 300ZX don't have a distributor...the disc is attached to > the end of a camshaft. I didn't understand the comment about reading > the code to determine the cyl #. Easy..say you put 3 different optical sensors in. Then put a pattern in front of them that has black and white marks which are the binary codes for the cylinder (000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101, 110, 111). From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Mon Mar 4 18:36:21 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 18:36:21 GMT Subject: No Subject Message-ID: Item Subject: cc:Mail Text I have converted a carburetted, 4-cylinder, '75 MGB to Bosch L-Jetronic Fuel Injection. The car works fine and there are no problems with the conversion. The purpose was mostly to see if it could be done, and to improve on the mixture accuracy. No lambda sesor is used. The L-Jetronic uses the trottle position to change the A/F ratio. At about 2/3 full trottle a switch closes and enriches the mixture. Later versions of the Bosch system used manifold vacuum to activate a switch. I want to change my system to this method. I want to enrich the mixture when the manifold vacuum drops. Does anyone have the Bosch number for such a switch? Where can I get one? Or what kind of car has this part so I can get it from a junk yard? Any help is appreciated. Werner From mcmansp2 at u.washington.edu Mon Mar 4 22:09:12 1996 From: mcmansp2 at u.washington.edu (Sean McManus) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:09:12 GMT Subject: Fuel Maps Message-ID: My main question here is: How does everyone out there tune the fuel (and ignition) maps on their system? Ultimately, the engine should be put on a dyno and loaded in all sorts of conditions while the exhaust CO, HC, O2 and CO2 is monitored, as well as rpm, torque, manifold pressure, etc. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the funds for this type of testing. The alternate method that seems most feasible is using an on board O2 sensor based A/F meter such as Haltech's or K&N's, tuning the system by driving the car and watching the meter at various conditions. 1) Has anyone had any luck dialing in their system in this manner? 2) Can an O2 sensor based A/F meter be purchased or fabricated for less than the $150-$200 range that I've seen them going for so far? Thanks in advance, Sean McManus University of Washington Formula SAE Yamaha FZR 600 power, modified Haltech F3/Siemens fuel system From arthurok at ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 4 22:49:54 1996 From: arthurok at ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:49:54 GMT Subject: Message-ID: heres an idea take a gm map sensor and use the signal output 0- 5vdc to drive a schmitt trigger circuit with a variable trip point and settable hysterisis " all it takes is a op amp and a relay". From andrewd at axonet.com.au Mon Mar 4 23:09:35 1996 From: andrewd at axonet.com.au (Andrew Dalgleish) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:09:35 GMT Subject: Optical Dist sensors Message-ID: Generating the pattern is pretty easy with a PC and printer, although the resolution wouldn't be good enough. If you print it out at some huge resolution then reduce it photographically it'd be ok. Any photographer could do it for you. Or print it inverse then just use the film negative. You need at least two sensors anyway (one for cylinder #1 TDC and one for angular resolution), so going to 3 or more isn't going to be much dearer. Using two (or more) "tracks" with quadrature encoding could give you very fine angular resolution. ++++++++++++ --__--__--__ Sensor 1 _--__--__--_ Sensor 2 -_-_-_-_-_-_ Exclusive OR ++++++++++++ ---___---___ Sensor 1 _---___---__ Sensor 2 __---___---_ Sensor 3 -_-_-_-_-_-_ Exclusive OR ++++++++++++ (view this with a fixed-pitch font, eg Courier) Makes me wonder why I piddled around using counter chips all these years. Hmm... time to investigate multiple sensor arrays. I recall seeing a 16-pin DIP with 8 photo-transistors in it years ago. A British magazine had a kit to store programs, etc. on paper. Can anyone help my memory? Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 From gfl at dilbert.hpl.hp.com Mon Mar 4 23:10:16 1996 From: gfl at dilbert.hpl.hp.com (Gerald Luiz) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:10:16 GMT Subject: Optical Dist sensors Message-ID: > > > Actually, the 300ZX don't have a distributor...the disc is attached to > > the end of a camshaft. I didn't understand the comment about reading > > the code to determine the cyl #. > > Easy..say you put 3 different optical sensors in. Then put a pattern in front > of them that has black and white marks which are the binary codes for the > cylinder (000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101, 110, 111). > Right. I was actaully trying to say that I didn't understand the coding on the Nissan b/c it does not have black/white patterns...just holes/slots. They must detect the width of the pulse (slots different widths) to mark 60/120 etc. I wonder if the end of a slot corresponds to 60 deg or the beginning of a hole. I expect the former. Gerald Luiz gluiz at hpl.hp.com From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Mon Mar 4 23:45:48 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:45:48 GMT Subject: L-jetronic Message-ID: Item Subject: L-jetronic Hi James I'm new at this list, so I don't know if I should reply to each person, or send my reply to DIY_EFI. I never did see my own message, so I don't know how everyone else saw it. Am I getting other peoples messages? Anyway, James, you're not confused. The my L-Jetronic does have an air meter. It also has a lambda sensor. At 2/3 or more trottle a switch closes, and the lambda sensor circuit is disconnected, the mixture gets richer by about 4% for a little more power and knock protection. Later ( oh.... about '86) the trottle switch was replaced with a vacuum switch to sense the manifold. This way even when the trottle is opened only half way at low rpm, the vacuum drops, the switch closes and the mixture goes rich by ~4%. James, thanks for the offer of the '79 Supra, but no. I have all the parts I need, except this vacuum switch to replace the switch on the trottle shaft. The parts came from a '83 Renault Fuego. Most of the information came from the Bosch FI book ( I don't have the author handy) the the FI book by Hartman. Actual data is very hard to come by. I had no luck getting data from Bosch. If you need specifics I may be able to help. But not much. Werner ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________ Subject: Re: L-jetronic Author: Non-HP-james (james at brc.ubc.ca) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/4/96 4:21 PM Werner, I thought that the L-jetronic (1979 and on) used an air flow meter, manifold vacuum to control A/F ratio???? The later LH-jetronic added and oxygen sensor. Am I confused??? Anyway I have a friend with a '79 Toyota Supra that has died at my parents place. I might be able to persuade him to part it out. It has the LH-jetronic and except for a couple of fuel pressure hoses the system works fine. Are you interested at all???? The car has blown a head gasket and thus he's got to tow it away to a wrecker and he'll probably get nothing for it. Sorry Werner I forgot to ask you if your L-type was a speed density system??? Where did you get your parts from for the conversion (ie. what car that is?) Do you have a good reference book that gives physical data on different sensors?? Like resistance of different coolant temp. sensors and whether they change their resistance in a linear, geometric or logarithmic fashion????? Thanks in advance jw From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Tue Mar 5 00:13:54 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 00:13:54 GMT Subject: L-jet on an MGB Message-ID: Item Subject: 1.txt "unix headers" Could not convert BINARY FILE item to text. Will attempt to 'shar' item as file '01v3m87' at end of msg. ....................................................................... Item Subject: L-jet on an MGB Hi Andy When I started, I knew nothing. Now that I have done one, it seems very easy. What kind of car do you have. If you have a Renault engine, it should be a piece of cake. The MGB had special problems. It has a siamese intake port (Two intake valves with one intake hole on the head). Worse, the intake stroke for this siamese port is not symetrical. I had intentions of having port injection, but because of the siamese ports with non-symetrical intake stroke I decided to go the trottle body injection route. This is undesirable, and not necessary if you have individual ports per cylinder. The system I used was from a '83 Fuego. I used everything. The complication came two ways. 1. I had to match a trottlle body injector to the system. I used a Ford trottle body with a single Bosch injector. 2. The other trick was the mixture. I wanted to run at a richer mixture than the 'ideal'. Mostly because the manifold was not designed for a lean mixture. To mount the injectors, I suggest you try to get a FI manifold from a car with the same engine but at a later time. Lotus did a lot with Renault engines didn't they? If you have a modified Renault engine (Lotus Europa), check out the Jeff Hartman book 'Fuel Injection; Installation, Performance Tuning, Modification. Anyway mountings are available for injectors, that book gives some examples. Werner ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Re: L-jet on an MGB Author: Non-HP-ajh (ajh at diamond.idbsu.edu) at HP-ColSprings,shargw2 Date: 3/4/96 4:18 PM Werner, I'm thinking also of putting FI onto my 70's British car (Lotus). What did you think overall of your project? How did you deal with the intake manifold, esp. with installation of the injectors? Does the range of air and fuel flow rates seem reasonable? Did you acquire your L-jet new or salvaged? thanks, andy # This is a shell archive. Remove anything before this line, # then unpack it by saving it in a file and typing "sh file". # # Wrapped by HP OpenMail user on Mon Mar 4 17:13:13 1996 # # This archive contains: # 01v3m87 # # Error checking via wc(1) will be performed. LANG=""; export LANG PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:$PATH; export PATH rm -f /tmp/uud$$ (echo "begin 666 /tmp/uud$$\n#;VL*n#6%@x\n \nend" | uudecode) >/dev/null 2>&1 if [ X"`cat /tmp/uud$$ 2>&1`" = Xok ] then unpacker=uudecode else echo Compiling unpacker for non-ascii files pwd=`pwd`; cd /tmp cat >unpack$$.c <<'EOF' #include #define C (*p++ - ' ' & 077) main() { int n; char buf[128], *p, a,b; scanf("begin %o ", &n); gets(buf); if (freopen(buf, "w", stdout) == NULL) { perror(buf); exit(1); } while (gets(p=buf) && (n=C)) { while (n>0) { a = C; if (n-- > 0) putchar(a << 2 | (b=C) >> 4); if (n-- > 0) putchar(b << 4 | (a=C) >> 2); if (n-- > 0) putchar(a << 6 | C); } } exit(0); } EOF cc -o unpack$$ unpack$$.c rm unpack$$.c cd $pwd unpacker=/tmp/unpack$$ fi rm -f /tmp/uud$$ echo x - 01v3m87 '[non-ascii]' $unpacker <<'@eof' begin 660 01v3m87 M4F5C96EV960Z(&9R;VT@2YH<"YC;VT^#0I296-E:79E9#H at 8GD@9&EA;6]NX M9"YI9&)S=2YE9'4-"@DH,2XS-RXQ,#DN,38O,38N,BD@:60 at 04$Q-C,W-C$TX M.#D[($UO;BP at -"!-87(@,3DY-B Q-CHQ.#HP.2 M,# At 02:09 PM 4/3/96 -0800, you wrote: >2) Can an O2 sensor based A/F meter be purchased or fabricated for less >than the $150-$200 range that I've seen them going for so far? Here in Australia you can buy this in kit form for $20 from a place called Jaycar electronics. If you check out the DIY fuel injection web site there are also plans there for this type of meter. Adam Tate. [at at multiline.com.au] http://www.multiline.com.au/~atate/index.html From btm at usa.nai.net Tue Mar 5 03:34:45 1996 From: btm at usa.nai.net (Brad Martin) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 03:34:45 GMT Subject: watercooled VW EFI Q's Message-ID: Hello fellow listsurfers- I have several variations of the watercooled VW FI systems and I'd love some more info on them... My assortment includes about a dozen systems ranging from '77 Rabbit to '84 Rabbit GTI stuff (a very little Golf also). It appears to me that the earliest systems are completely mechanical... ie air flow meter controls fuel pressure in the loop, excess discarded back to tank. What are the pro & cons of a completely mech. system esp. in a racing app. (racing=Dirt pro-rally, hillclimb (paved & dirt), road race, autox)? Then you've got the electronic version both w/o & w/ O2 sensor & it seems that this is where there are some varying orifice dimensions across models & years, both in throttle body & air flow meter (whats the proper name for this?) How can I choose an optimum induction system diameter after engine mods? Does anyone have a schematic of the guts of the black box - both idle stabilzer and ignition control unit if possible? I know I'm firing off alot of questions, but I guess my general intent is to stir up the VW lurkers! Thanks! and here's my vote for an excellent forum... Regards- Brad Martin '92 Subaru SVX '84 VW Rabbit GTI ex-PRO Rally car, now all 'round racer/beater '83 VW Rabbit GTI PRO Rally Car wannabe - hillclimbs too '81 VW Scirocco S street car TBD '79 VW Scirocco ice racer ==== Also, you may want to check out: http://www.win.net/bmicad/welcome.html (bmi CAD's homepage) http://www.win.net/bmicad/strahome.html (Stealth Racing's homepage) http://www.win.net/bmicad/nehahome.html (New England Hillclimb Association's homepage) From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Tue Mar 5 04:00:38 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (dn) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 04:00:38 GMT Subject: Optical Dist sensors Message-ID: Andrew Dalgleish writes: > Generating the pattern is pretty easy with a PC and printer, although the > resolution wouldn't be good enough. If you print it out at some huge > resolution then reduce it photographically it'd be ok. Any photographer > could do it for you. Or print it inverse then just use the film negative. I actually did this one time to make my own encoder. I generated the pattern with a CAD program (Generic Cadd), output the file in Postscript, and printed it on the laser printer on clear transparency film. Worked great! The pattern came out crystal clear, I then glued the transparent film onto an aluminum disk and used reflective opto sensors to read it. I ended up using a commercial encoder, however, because the housing was too expensive to machine in quantity. I assume there would be a limit as to how small you could go using this method, but a decent laser printer could make the thing very small with very little loss in image quality. Using a CADD program, you can scale the drawing to any size you want. > You need at least two sensors anyway (one for cylinder #1 TDC and one for > angular resolution), so going to 3 or more isn't going to be much dearer. All you really need is the 2 quadrature tracks, plus a single "index" marker which generates a pulse once per revolution. In this manner, you have a sync pulse which tells you when you have gone one full turn, and simply reference everything to the sync pulse... > Makes me wonder why I piddled around using counter chips all these years. Look into the Hewlett Packard HCTL2016 chip - it has a complete quadrature decoder with digital filtering, and a 16 bit counter readable by any CPU. Works like a damn, and is really easy to use... > Hmm... time to investigate multiple sensor arrays. > I recall seeing a 16-pin DIP with 8 photo-transistors in it years ago. These were used in the ancient but venerable paper tape readers. I doubt if you could still find them, but I think TI used to make some. They still make linear CCD arrays, but these are kind of a pain to interface. You could always use discrete surface mount photo transistors, you can pack them really close together. This is what most optical encoder manufacturers use. Difficult to work with SMD components, though. regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Tue Mar 5 04:18:20 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (dn) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 04:18:20 GMT Subject: Optical Dist sensors Message-ID: Gerald Luiz wrote: > Right. I was actaully trying to say that I didn't understand the coding on > the Nissan b/c it does not have black/white patterns...just holes/slots. > They must detect the width of the pulse (slots different widths) to mark > 60/120 etc. I wonder if the end of a slot corresponds to 60 deg or the > beginning of a hole. I expect the former. Are the slots radial or circular? If they are radial, they may be just positioned every x degrees and give a pulse when they pass by the sensor. If they are circular, it may be that they use a Gray Code scheme, which gives a unique binary position indication for each pattern of holes. With this setup, there would have to be at least 3 sensors, corresponding to 3 sets of semicircular slots. With the radial method, there would only be 1 sensor. In either case, the sensors/light sources would be arranged in pairs, one on each side of the disk, and where there is a hole, the light would shine through and activate the sensor, no hole would block light and the sensor would be off. regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lowell at smartt.com Tue Mar 5 05:23:04 1996 From: lowell at smartt.com (lowell at smartt.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 05:23:04 GMT Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #64 Message-ID: >From: CHAN WEN YEN >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 12:16:27 -0500 >Subject: rough idle -- help > >I'm repairing a 1990 Acura Integra with the 1.8 l engine (no MAF sensor) >. The engine has a rough idle when the ambient air temperature is below >zero and the engine is warm. The idle will dip as low as 500 RPM when the >brake is applied (the car is not automatic) and will eventually settle >just below the normal idle (normal idle - 750). The idle will also >fluctuate +/- 50 RPM @ idle. During periods of rough idling the >vacuum fluctuates rapidly +/- 1/4 inHG about 19 inHG. > > I have changed the air and fuel filters, the spark plugs, the >distributor cap, the PCV valve, reset the base idle & advance, set the >valve lash, removed the carbon from the intake manifold, throttle plate >& valves and used about 4 doses of fuel injector cleaner (motormaster >brand). After changing the air & fuel filters the idle was smooth & >stable for about 5 min. Watch the voltage at the EACV (idle valve) or try pinching the hose to it. If the idle stops bouncing around, it could be sticky, or the ECU is being fooled somehow. Take the valve off and turn the key from off too accessory. It should open fully and close fully when the key is turned off. Things that affect EACV voltage would be: electric load detector, coolant temp sensor, throttle position, rpm, basicaly lots to look at. Try and get a factory shop manual for a good explanation of how it all works. From MTaylorfi at aol.com Tue Mar 5 05:37:15 1996 From: MTaylorfi at aol.com (MTaylorfi at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 05:37:15 GMT Subject: Optical Dist sensors Message-ID: Better to use grey code 000, 001, 011, 010, 110, 111, 101, 100. Only one bit is changed at a time. Useful in error checking.... See ya, Mike From MTaylorfi at aol.com Tue Mar 5 05:51:06 1996 From: MTaylorfi at aol.com (MTaylorfi at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 05:51:06 GMT Subject: Volumetric eff. Message-ID: I was wondering, does anyone know of a function that roughly follows the V.E. vs. RPM of an engine. Engine size, manifold pressure and intake temperature I'm sure affect V.E., but I'm just looking for a cheap estimate. All you MAP die-hards have made me rethink my already working MAF based EFI system. The $150 MAF sensor is pricey.. See ya and thanks in advanced!! Mike From arthurok at ix.netcom.com Tue Mar 5 07:16:58 1996 From: arthurok at ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 07:16:58 GMT Subject: Volumetric eff. Message-ID: thats why many cars dont use a maf or use one of inferior design or quality do you realize how much the customer would pay for a $150 item on a new car i dont think the ones that ford or gm uses cost that much for them to manufacture. From dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU Tue Mar 5 13:28:30 1996 From: dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU (David M Parrish) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:28:30 GMT Subject: Subaru EFI Message-ID: I'm trying to hack my way into the control box for a Subaru SVX engine made by JECS. The EPROM is a Fujitsu 27C1028 which I couldn't find in my meager databook collection. I tried reading the EPROM as a 27C1024, but just got garbage. I'm assuming the -28 is a protected device. Any suggestions? --- David Parrish From bowling at cebaf.gov Tue Mar 5 14:39:36 1996 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 14:39:36 GMT Subject: Message-ID: ~ ~ heres an idea take a gm map sensor and use the signal output 0- ~ 5vdc to drive a schmitt trigger circuit with a variable trip point ~ and settable hysterisis " all it takes is a op amp and a relay". ~ Does the GM MAP sensor put out a 0-5 volt signal? (I have always wondered). If so, could someone out there elaborate (on pinout, range, etc.)? - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Tue Mar 5 15:46:49 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:46:49 GMT Subject: L-jetronic Message-ID: Hi Orin Yes the car runs good with the Bosch system. I increased the pressure at the injector to 17.5lb, and loosened the spring at the air meter by two notches. That worked real good. I later found a way to increase fuel flow by modifying the analog computer. This allowed me to use a standard air meter. The thing I want to do now is delete the trottle switch for enrichment. I never got it to fit well. I am looking for a vacuum switch for the fuel enrichment. The L-Jetronic system you used has such a switch. Do you have the Bosch number or do you have one? The injector I am using is four times a standard 288 cc/sec flow. I am doing this by memory, so it may be wrong. I gave you the PN for that injector. Werner ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: L-jetronic Author: Non-HP-orin (orin at nr.infi.net) at HP-ColSprings,shargw2 Date: 3/5/96 7:45 AM -- [ From: Orin Harding * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Werner, Did you ever find out what the flow specs. are for the Ford (Bosch) injectors are??? I remember you said that you were having trouble with the system running lean on the "B"..I had the same problem when I tried your approach and never could get the thing to run as I would like. I also never overcame the cold start problems..You know, on very cold days it would idle very rough...Warm days ok, but cold days really bad. I have switched over to the Electromotive TEC II and it runs fine, although a little lean, but the system is very expensive and defeated the real purpose...A cheap replacement for the SU's or Zenith carbs...Let me know how you're making out ... Orin -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Monday, 04-Mar-96 04:45 PM From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com \ Internet: (werner_haussmann at hp-loveland-om2.om.hp.com) To: DIY_EFI at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu \ Internet: (diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu) Subject: Re: L-jetronic Item Subject: L-jetronic Hi James I'm new at this list, so I don't know if I should reply to each person, or send my reply to DIY_EFI. I never did see my own message, so I don't know how everyone else saw it. Am I getting other peoples messages? Anyway, James, you're not confused. The my L-Jetronic does have an air meter. It also has a lambda sensor. At 2/3 or more trottle a switch closes , and the lambda sensor circuit is disconnected, the mixture gets richer by about 4% for a little more power and knock protection. Later ( oh.... about '86) the trottle switch was replaced with a vacuum switch to sense the manifold. This way even when the trottle is opened only half way at low rpm, the vacuum drops, the switch closes and the mixture goes rich by ~4%. James, thanks for the offer of the '79 Supra, but no. I have all the parts I need, except this vacuum switch to replace the switch on the trottle shaft. The parts came from a '83 Renault Fuego. Most of the information came from the Bosch FI book ( I don't have the author handy) the the FI book by Hartman. Actual data is very hard to come by. I had no luck getting data from Bosch . If you need specifics I may be able to help. But not much. Werner ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________ Subject: Re: L-jetronic Author: Non-HP-james (james at brc.ubc.ca) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/4/96 4:21 PM Werner, I thought that the L-jetronic (1979 and on) used an air flow meter, manifold vacuum to control A/F ratio???? The later LH-jetronic added and oxygen sensor. Am I confused??? Anyway I have a friend with a '79 Toyota Supra that has died at my parents place. I might be able to persuade him to part it out. It has the LH- jetronic and except for a couple of fuel pressure hoses the system works fine. Are you interested at all???? The car has blown a head gasket and thus he's got to tow it away to a wrecker and he'll probably get nothing for it. Sorry Werner I forgot to ask you if your L-type was a speed density system? ?? Where did you get your parts from for the conversion (ie. what car that is?) Do you have a good reference book that gives physical data on different sensors?? Like resistance of different coolant temp. sensors and whether they change their resistance in a linear, geometric or logarithmic fashion????? Thanks in advance jw -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- From btm at usa.nai.net Tue Mar 5 16:01:36 1996 From: btm at usa.nai.net (Brad Martin) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:01:36 GMT Subject: Subaru EFI Message-ID: At 08:52 AM 3/5/96 +0000, you wrote: >I'm trying to hack my way into the control box for a Subaru SVX >engine made by JECS. The EPROM is a Fujitsu 27C1028 which I couldn't >find in my meager databook collection. I tried reading the EPROM as a >27C1024, but just got garbage. I'm assuming the -28 is a protected >device. Any suggestions? > >--- >David Parrish David- Wow, was I suprised to see your email! I own 2 SVX's and have wanted more info about the ECU, etc for a while. I do own the factory service manuals, but this is only a small help. Although my company designs small analog & digital PCB's, I personally have very little EPROM experience Pls let me know what you turn up!! (& I'll do the same of course!) Regards- Brad Martin President bmi CAD Services 8E Herman Drive POB 522 Simsbury, CT 06070-0522 860-658-0808 voice 860-658-0404 fax 860-379-6187 voice2 (call here first) 860-738-0471 fax2 sales at bmicad.win.net ==== Also, you may want to check out: http://www.win.net/bmicad/welcome.html (bmi CAD's homepage) http://www.win.net/bmicad/strahome.html (Stealth Racing's homepage) http://www.win.net/bmicad/nehahome.html (New England Hillclimb Association's homepage) (The Hacker) '92 Subaru SVX '84 VW Rabbit GTI ex-PRO Rally car, now all 'round racer/beater '83 VW Rabbit GTI PRO Rally Car wannabe - hillclimbs too '81 VW Scirocco S street car TBD '79 VW Scirocco ice racer From kking at HiWAAY.net Tue Mar 5 16:03:54 1996 From: kking at HiWAAY.net (Kenneth C. King) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:03:54 GMT Subject: Optical Dist sensors Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Mar 1996 MTaylorfi at aol.com wrote: > Better to use grey code > 000, 001, 011, 010, 110, 111, 101, 100. > Only one bit is changed at a time. Useful in error checking.... greetings: that's a great set for use in an 8 cyl car. for a 6banger, try: 000 001 011 010 110 100 fro a 4banger, try: 000 001 011 010 or: 00 01 11 10 (using 2 bits) "ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 "he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc From MSargent at gallium.com Tue Mar 5 16:09:46 1996 From: MSargent at gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:09:46 GMT Subject: Volumetric eff. Message-ID: Perhaps the best way to ball-park your VE curve is to use one of the engine simulator programs. Commercial programs, like Engine Analyzer ($80 at Summit) give VE figures as part of their "dyno" sheets. Bruce Bowling was working on an engine simulator. I don't know if he's gone any further with it, but the last time I looked it did not compute VE. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From sandberg_eric_f at space.honeywell.com Tue Mar 5 16:24:49 1996 From: sandberg_eric_f at space.honeywell.com (Sandberg Eric F) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:24:49 GMT Subject: No subject Message-ID: commands From ehernan3 at ford.com Tue Mar 5 16:50:34 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:50:34 GMT Subject: L-jet on an MGB Message-ID: "I had intentions of having port injection, but because of the siamese ports with non-symetrical intake stroke I decided to go the trottle body injection route. This is undesirable, and not necessary if you have individual ports per cylinder." Actually, there is nothing wrong with assymetrical intake ports for the DIYer. There are OEM applications with these kind of ports, and if we can make it work to meet strict emissions and fuel economy standards, you can make it work for DIY. Just be careful which at port you choose for injecting fuel. "I was wondering, does anyone know of a function that roughly follows the V.E. vs. RPM of an engine. Engine size, manifold pressure and intake temperature I'm sure affect V.E., but I'm just looking for a cheap estimate." There is no cheap estimate or generic function. The variables you mention and many others preclude the use of generic functions. I'd have to agree with M Sargent on the use of commercial programs for your best/cheapest bet. They aren't perfect, but will do for DIY. From Bohdan.L.Bodnar at att.com Tue Mar 5 16:53:00 1996 From: Bohdan.L.Bodnar at att.com (Bohdan.L.Bodnar at att.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:53:00 GMT Subject: Message-ID: GM and Chrysler MAP sensors have an output which is roughly between 0.1 and 4.9 volts. At atmospheric pressure, a GM or Chrysler MAP sensor designed for a self aspirated engine will output around 4.9 volts whereas a sensor designed for a supercharged engine will output around 2.5 volts. Ford's MAP sensors (and BMAP sensors) output a variable frequency. At atmospheric pressure, the frequency will be between 155 and 159 Hz. Please keep in mind that the voltage/frequency reading will be dependent on altitude, weather conditions, etc. Typical connections to the sensor: black (signal ground, NOT power ground), red (5.0 volts reference), green (output signal, sometimes called "signal return"). About a year ago I posted a table which gave output frequency vs. pressure for a Ford MAP sensor. Now, does anyone have one for Chrysler stuff? If so, would you kindly mail it to me? Thanks, Bohdan Bodnar bohdan.l.bodnar at att.com From bowling at cebaf.gov Tue Mar 5 17:52:49 1996 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:52:49 GMT Subject: Volumetric eff. Message-ID: ~ ~ Perhaps the best way to ball-park your VE curve is to use one of the engine ~ simulator programs. Commercial programs, like Engine Analyzer ($80 at Summit) ~ give VE figures as part of their "dyno" sheets. Bruce Bowling was working ~ on an engine simulator. I don't know if he's gone any further with it, but ~ the last time I looked it did not compute VE. ~ ~ Mike ~ +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ~ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | ~ | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | ~ +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ~ ~ No, I never put in VE, because its computation is difficult to get even in "ballpark" terms. Re-phrasing: the actual computation is straightforward, the inputs are massive, much more than an average person would tolerate while keeping their sanity. The $80.00 code utilizes an empirical equation, similar (or exactly) to: VE = 5600 * ((Horsepower)/(RPM * CID)) * 100.0 and will yield $80.00 results. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From lndshrk at xmission.com Tue Mar 5 18:00:13 1996 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 18:00:13 GMT Subject: Subaru EFI Message-ID: At 11:00 AM 3/5/96 GMT, you wrote: >At 08:52 AM 3/5/96 +0000, you wrote: >>I'm trying to hack my way into the control box for a Subaru SVX >>engine made by JECS. The EPROM is a Fujitsu 27C1028 which I couldn't >>find in my meager databook collection. I tried reading the EPROM as a >>27C1024, but just got garbage. I'm assuming the -28 is a protected >>device. Any suggestions? Yeah, I emailed Fujitsu's tech support ... Suggest you also call your local Fujitsu distributor Jim Conforti PS: WHATS THE PROCESSOR?? From JSTEIN at dpc2.hdos.hac.com Tue Mar 5 18:15:40 1996 From: JSTEIN at dpc2.hdos.hac.com (John T Stein) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 18:15:40 GMT Subject: Message-ID: Bruce Bowling wrote: > > Does the GM MAP sensor put out a 0-5 volt signal? (I have always wondered). > If so, could someone out there elaborate (on pinout, range, etc.)? > > - Bruce GM MAP sensors put out a 0-5 volt signal as you would expect. Be careful however, some of the GM MAPs have a positive scale factor and read ~5 volts at atmospheric pressure and ~ 0 at ~30 inches Hg vacuum while others have a NEGATIVE scale factor. This second type reads ~5 volts at ~ 30 inches Hg and 0 volts at atmospheric pressure. From experience, the sensor GM used on the '83 2.8 L v-6 was the second type while that used on the '87 2.5 L four was the first type. John From MSargent at gallium.com Tue Mar 5 18:41:55 1996 From: MSargent at gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 18:41:55 GMT Subject: Volumetric eff. Message-ID: > The $80.00 code utilizes an empirical equation, similar (or exactly) to: > VE = 5600 * ((Horsepower)/(RPM * CID)) * 100.0 > and will yield $80.00 results. I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one Bruce. Engine Analyzer works from the basic configuration of an engine (bore, stroke, valve size, nubmer of valves, CR, intake runner flow coefficient, carb or TB flow rating, etc.) and computes the VE. From the VE (and other parameters) it calculates torque and then using RPM calculates HP. It's fairly flexable in that it allows you to change things like intake and exhaust runner lengths to see the effects that tuning will have. The people who wrote Engine Analyzer claim it to be within +/- 15% of real world (i.e., dyno) results. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From lndshrk at xmission.com Tue Mar 5 20:58:29 1996 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:58:29 GMT Subject: Volumetric eff. Message-ID: Has anyone used DYNOMATION?? I'd like to BUY it, but cannot get anyone to contact me ... I even emailed the people from the DYNOMATION Home Page .. ARRGH! Any opinions of this software?? Jim From ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com Tue Mar 5 21:12:57 1996 From: ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com (ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:12:57 GMT Subject: MAP Sensor Message-ID: I just checked out a GM MAP sensor for my B&S system, and from a starting point of nothing, this is what I found out with a voltmeter and power supply. |-----------------| | ----- | |-----(o o o)-----| ----- 1 2 3 1 - Ground 2 - Output 3 - V+ (+5VDC) Output appears linear from 0V at full vacuum to +5VDC at 1Atm. I suspect the internals are a Motorola MPX51xx transducer or similar. It works, so I'm not going to disembowel it. The price was right (free) came off a mid-80's Olds midsize 4-banger. Cliff Ducharme From btm at usa.nai.net Tue Mar 5 21:24:17 1996 From: btm at usa.nai.net (Brad Martin) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:24:17 GMT Subject: Subaru EFI Message-ID: At 11:00 AM 3/5/96 -0700, you wrote: >At 11:00 AM 3/5/96 GMT, you wrote: >>At 08:52 AM 3/5/96 +0000, you wrote: >>>I'm trying to hack my way into the control box for a Subaru SVX >>>engine made by JECS. The EPROM is a Fujitsu 27C1028 which I couldn't >>>find in my meager databook collection. I tried reading the EPROM as a >>>27C1024, but just got garbage. I'm assuming the -28 is a protected >>>device. Any suggestions? > > > Yeah, I emailed Fujitsu's tech support ... Do you still have the address you used? I'd be interested fi you could foward it! Thanks- Brad From mds at mot.delcoelect.com Tue Mar 5 22:00:55 1996 From: mds at mot.delcoelect.com (Matt Sale) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:00:55 GMT Subject: MAP Sensor Message-ID: > > I just checked out a GM MAP sensor for my B&S system, and from a starting > point of nothing, this is what I found out with a voltmeter and power > supply. > > |-----------------| > | ----- | > |-----(o o o)-----| > ----- > 1 2 3 > > 1 - Ground > 2 - Output > 3 - V+ (+5VDC) > > Output appears linear from 0V at full vacuum to +5VDC at 1Atm. I suspect > the internals are a Motorola MPX51xx transducer or similar. It works, so > I'm not going to disembowel it. The price was right (free) came off a > mid-80's Olds midsize 4-banger. > > Cliff Ducharme > They're made by Delco Electronics. Matt Sale From bowling at cebaf.gov Tue Mar 5 22:45:10 1996 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:45:10 GMT Subject: Volumetric eff. Message-ID: ~ ~ I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one Bruce. Engine Analyzer works ~ from the basic configuration of an engine (bore, stroke, valve size, nubmer of ~ valves, CR, intake runner flow coefficient, carb or TB flow rating, etc.) ~ and computes the VE. From the VE (and other parameters) it calculates torque ~ and then using RPM calculates HP. ~ ~ It's fairly flexable in that it allows you to change things like intake and ~ exhaust runner lengths to see the effects that tuning will have. The people ~ who wrote Engine Analyzer claim it to be within +/- 15% of real world (i.e., ~ dyno) results. ~ ~ Mike ~ +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ~ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | ~ | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | ~ +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ~ ~ I believe in the cost/performance ratio method of rating codes, with the ratio being a constant. Unless Engine Analyzer is a true airflow solver (with user-defined mesh points, etc) and the user enters info like intake runner cross-section, inertial supercharge index, etc, it is dealing with approximations to the real modelled system. What are these approximations? Where did these approximations come from and are they generic enough for any system modelled? Does the writers of Engine Analyzer provide the complete numerical algorithm? Do they promise the +/- 15% correlation with the real world with any engine? A true airflow simulation would take many, many minutes to execute on a generic '386 PC (or hours). From this fact alone I conclude that Engine Analyzer is empirical in operation. If it works for a particular setup, then everything is fine. If someone held a gun to my head threatening to pull the trigger if Engine Analyzer did not match their particular hunk, then there is a good chance I'll end up like Kurt Cobain. But for an $80.00 program, it out-performs something costing say $50.00. (and since my WWW page calculations are free, they are totally untrustworthy!). - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From fawkacs at ozemail.com.au Tue Mar 5 22:54:26 1996 From: fawkacs at ozemail.com.au (Michael Fawke) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:54:26 GMT Subject: MC3334 question Message-ID: Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of analogue is _very_ limited.... On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian for another coil :) Thanks in advance. PS. Angle sensing using optical light/dark coding on a wheel is _really_ dark ages stuff. Missed pulse/Long pulse detection is much better. At least if the sensor fails the whole system stops - what do you think would happen with a binary encoded wheel? Ugh! - makes me shudder! Michael Fawke fawkacs at ozemail.com.au From andrewd at axonet.com.au Wed Mar 6 00:45:17 1996 From: andrewd at axonet.com.au (Andrew Dalgleish) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:45:17 GMT Subject: inductive vs optical Message-ID: On Wednesday, 6 March 1996 9:55, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: [snip] > > PS. Angle sensing using optical light/dark coding on a wheel is _really_ > dark ages stuff. Missed pulse/Long pulse detection is much better. > At least if the sensor fails the whole system stops - what do you think > would happen with a binary encoded wheel? Ugh! - makes me shudder! > > Michael Fawke > fawkacs at ozemail.com.au > > Make sure you're not confusing hardware probems with system design. Sensor problems give you the same problems regardless of sensor type (inductive, optical, ESP). If a sensor isn't working, you don't know what's happening. Period. Assuming your sensors are ok, the basic idea is to get the most information from the minimum number of sensors (hence $$$) Missing/short/long pulse detection needs either time or frequency based detection. (Any other's I've missed?) Car engines run over a relatively wide rpm range, so time-based detection is out. Frequency based detection is usually done by a phase or frequency locked loop, either analog or digital. Either way, you still have a fairly complex filter to design to ensure under/over-shoot doesn't cause false (extra or missing) triggering. Multiple sensors (inductive or optical) remove the need for any loop filter design. You do have to allow for sensor failure, and yes, you now have more sensors which could fail. If you use one sensor for angle and one for index, the detection is fairly simple. Assuming 1 per (cam) degree, 1 for index, if I get more than 720 degrees without an index, or less than 720 on the next index there is a problem. If you use two sensors for angle (eg quadrature encoding), you can test for either of these failing as well. Ok, so if the engine rocks backwards when you switch it off will confuse this, but you don't care at this point. I'd prefer to have the sensor checking than to know how far my engine rocks back :-) As others have pointed out if you encode your cylinder number in binary you are asking for trouble, Gray coding is far less error-prone. I think it is easier to use a state machine which is advanced once per cylinder. This can come from an extra sensor, or (IMHO preferably) from the angle divided down. Again, check the cylinder count is correct every time you receive an index pulse. Generally, I'd say an inductive sensor is more reliable than an optical sensor. The sensor itself isn't affect by voltage spikes as much as a LED, although the supporting analogue circuitry may be. Unfortunately, it's not easy to design an inductive pickup which will work from cranking speed through to red-line. An A14 goes from 200 to 10,000 rpm. (The push-rods start to flex at around 11,000 rpm.) If you add missing/short/long pulses to the design requirements, it gets harder. I can buy off-the-shelf optical sensors which provide a TTL signal I can plug into a computer. I can print my own encoding wheel and reduce it photographically. (The laser in a printer may be accurate to X DPI, but check the size of your toner granules.) Development time is the single most expensive part of any design. Hence three optical sensors (1 for index plus 2 for quadrature angle), a printed wheel, an EPLD, about 2 hours of programming, and I'm done. Incidentally at my last place of employment we used a proximity sensor which was placed *inside* the magnetic field of a 500MW power station generator to measure the stator to rotor gap for pole shift, thermal movement, etc. The sensor cost around US$5,000. Anyone want to buy one of these for their car? Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 From mfield at calypso.com Wed Mar 6 03:57:21 1996 From: mfield at calypso.com (Mark Field) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 03:57:21 GMT Subject: Turbo Lag Message-ID: On Sun, 03 Mar 1996 19:35:20 -0800 you wrote: >At 07:40 PM 3/3/96, you wrote: >>Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, but it >>appears to me that this idea uses a pump of some kind to produce a >>tank of compressed air under low-load conditions. This tank of >>compressed air is then used when needed, to drive a compressor to >>produce, yes you've guessed it, compressed air. Once you've got >>your tank of compressed air, why not regulate it and blow it >>straight though your throttle body and cut out all those mechanical >>losses inherrant in the second pump/compressor ? >> >> Brian Warburton >> >>> >>>>Check this out, an air motor connected to a centrifugal blower. Air tools >>>frequently turn at very high speeds. A mid size air motor might be the >>>ticket. Imagine a small air tank and an electric or engine driven pump. >>>During low load, the pump tanks the air under high pressure. When boost is >>>needed, high flow solenoids open up and all hell breaks lose. Almost no >>>parasitic losses and instant gratification! This should be possible with off >>>the shelf components. As always, EFI would be needed to make the system >>>really work. >>>> >>> GMD >> >> >I think you'll find that an air motor used to spin up a centrifugal >compressor would require air at substantial pressure (i.e. >100 psi). A >centrifugal turbine wouldn't have a prayer of delivering air at that >pressure. You'd need the equivilent of an electric transfomer to convert >low-pressure/high-volume air to the high-pressure/low-volume air required by >the air motor.....or else compress the air directly using a (gasp!) >belt-driven vane or piston compressor. The beauty of the turbocharger is >that both the input and output sections are of similar "impedance" and no >transformation is required. > > > Bill > > > Just my thought's on the subject of turbo lag. First let me say that my car has a turbo ( Garret/ Air-Research E-5A ?). My car is a '86 Mustang SVO with the 2.3 liter engine. From what I've read, and the people I've talked to, the snail (exhaust housing) is the biggest culpret for turbo lag. A small inlet increases the exhaust velocity allowing a faster spool time. The down side of this is an increase in back pressure as the engine RPM increases. A large inlet on the turbine side keeps the exhaust gas velocity low, but allows the engine to breath better at top end. A vicious circle it is. I've also seen posts about the variable vane exhaust housing that was available several years ago. From what I've read, and talking to some of my racing buddies, these didn't pan out as the vanes either warped from the extreme heat or failed to operate once the carbon deposits started to develope. A good idea, but not enough demand to warrant working out the bugs. Here's my thoughts on how to reduce turbo lag. Put the butterfly valve on the suction side of the compressor. If's there is little to no air in the compressor( my car pulls 23 inches of vacuum at idle ), it would take longer to stall the turbine. The down side to this, is the fact that the intake track has to be filled and repressured before boost can take place. But, with the turbine allready spinning from the lack of backpressure in the inlet housing, you would think that the turbo would spool up significantly faster than having to pedal uphill against a manifold full of air. I plan on trying this sometime in the near future when I can afford a new set of injectors. Mine currently have a severe case of the cracks from old age, and $600.00 doesn't come cheap. Anyhow, just my thoughts. Mark Field mfield at mail.calypso.com ***** Signature Cloak Engaged to conserve bandwidth****** From dapiper at one.net Wed Mar 6 04:05:50 1996 From: dapiper at one.net (David Piper) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 04:05:50 GMT Subject: Optical Dist sensors Message-ID: r"John DeArmond fanclub #13 Is anyone interested in the whereabouts of big John? Do the words no computers, american dream, Cleveland, TN, pork BarBQ and Chitlin' mean anything? TurboDave Less Maintenance, More Performance. From arthurok at ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 6 04:20:28 1996 From: arthurok at ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 04:20:28 GMT Subject: Subaru EFI Message-ID: if its a 28 pin package try reading it as a 27c128 thats the size gm uses in their newer memcal packs 128kbytes ofcode seems awfuly large for a little subaru ecm . From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Wed Mar 6 05:00:50 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (dn) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:00:50 GMT Subject: Message-ID: Bohdan Bodnar wrote: > GM and Chrysler MAP sensors have an output which is roughly between 0.1 and > 4.9 volts. This is to allow for mfg. tolerances to gurantee that any given unit will be within the 0-5V input range of the a/d converter. The zero offset also provides a little headroom for noise immunity. > At atmospheric pressure, a GM or Chrysler MAP sensor designed for a self > aspirated engine will output around 4.9 volts whereas a sensor designed > for a supercharged engine will output around 2.5 volts. This makes sense if you think in terms of absolute pressure instead of vacuum. A 0 - 30 PSIA sensor would read 1/2 scale at 1 Atm. Less than this is vacuum more than this is boost. A normally aspirated engine would only require the 0 - 14.7 PSIA half of this range. > Ford's MAP sensors (and BMAP sensors) output a variable frequency. At > atmospheric pressure, the frequency will be between 155 and 159 Hz. > About a year ago I posted a table which gave output frequency vs. pressure > for a Ford MAP sensor. Would you kindly email this to me, if you still have it kicking around? Actually, post it to DIY_EFI, there are probably more people who would like to see it. regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From fawkacs at ozemail.com.au Wed Mar 6 05:15:45 1996 From: fawkacs at ozemail.com.au (Michael Fawke) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:15:45 GMT Subject: inductive vs optical Message-ID: At 11:43 AM 6/3/1996 S, Andrew wrote: >Assuming your sensors are ok, the basic idea is to get the most >information from the minimum number of sensors (hence $$$) >Missing/short/long pulse detection needs either time or frequency based >detection. (Any other's I've missed?) >Car engines run over a relatively wide rpm range, so time-based detection >is out. >Frequency based detection is usually done by a phase or frequency locked >loop, >either analog or digital. >Either way, you still have a fairly complex filter to design to ensure >under/over-shoot doesn't cause false (extra or missing) triggering. I agree on the filtering part, but unless you are running an analogue controller there should be no problem with accurate time control when the input from the sensor in used to generate an interrupt to a processor. I must admit that the long-pulse system would be a real pain (I know the car manufacturers use it, but I have no idea how), but a missing or extra pulse is easy from a programming point of view..... as long as the CPU speed is adequate. Michael Fawke fawkacs at ozemail.com.au From sandyg at visix.com Wed Mar 6 06:42:15 1996 From: sandyg at visix.com (sandy) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:42:15 GMT Subject: MC3334 question Message-ID: At 09:55 AM 3/6/96 +1000, you wrote: >Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of >analogue is _very_ limited.... > >On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the >circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the >MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article >on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does >not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the >current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or >can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? > I don't have the circuit handy (i'm on the road), but I thought that it had the sense resistor. The value on the moto data sheet is .075Ohms I think. Their is also a variable resistor from that to form a simple divider network that is used to adjust the current that the limiting starts at. The thing that I remeber from Tim's stuff is that it was the exact same circuit as the moto data sheet. >Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have >seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when >used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with >a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian >for another coil :) The above mentioned setting of the variable resistor will set the maximum current that the coil is driven to. Sandy ********************************** Sandy Ganz sandyg at visix.com Visix Software Inc. ********************************** From arthurok at ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 6 07:54:43 1996 From: arthurok at ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:54:43 GMT Subject: Turbo Lag Message-ID: who needs air just inject nitrous oxide;maybe thats the answear electronicaly regulated injection just enough to compensate for turbo lag? From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Wed Mar 6 08:30:06 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (dn) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:30:06 GMT Subject: inductive vs optical Message-ID: > Andrew Dalgleish wrote: > Car engines run over a relatively wide rpm range, so time-based detection > is out. Why? As long as your timing resolution is high enough, and you don't rely on the micro for doing the quadrature or handling a zillion interrupts, a micro should be able to handle up to 7 or 8000 RPM easily. 8000 RPM is only about 1Khz. > Generally, I'd say an inductive sensor is more reliable than an optical > sensor. The sensor itself isn't affect by voltage spikes as much as a LED, > although the supporting analogue circuitry may be. An inductive sensor has the shortcoming of having much less resoulution. It would be extremely difficult to build an inductive pickup with a couple of hundred teeth small enough to fit in a distributor, whereas it's no problem with an optical encoder... > I can buy off-the-shelf optical sensors which provide a TTL signal I can > plug into a computer. I can print my own encoding wheel and reduce it > photographically. Development time is the single most expensive part of > any design. Hence three optical sensors (1 for index plus 2 for > quadrature angle), a printed wheel, an EPLD, about 2 hours of programming, > and I'm done. Check out HP (Hewlett Packard). They make an optical sensor setup that you can buy different resolution disks for, or make your own. They are the HEDS 5000, 6000, and 9000 series. They even make one with 360 cpr, and are very small in size. Coupled with an HCTL2000/2016 quadrature decoder chip, (X4 resolution, built in 12/16 bit counter w/direction, 8 bit parallel interface) you have an instant position sensing system with no programming or fabricating at all. regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Wed Mar 6 08:30:15 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (dn) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:30:15 GMT Subject: MC3334 question Message-ID: > Michael Fawke wrote: > Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of > analogue is _very_ limited.... Ya, I feel sorry for you electrically challenged individuals... (just kidding! 8-) > On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the > circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the > MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article > on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does > not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the > current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or > can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? After a little data book browsing, I see MC3334 has an overcurrent limit threshold of minimum 120 mV, typical 160 mV, maximum 190 mV. This means that at the current level you want to limit at, the voltage across the current sense resistor has to rise to around 160 mV to trip the current limiter circuit. In the data book, they show a circuit with a 0.075 ohm resistor, and a further adjustable voltage divider into pin 8 (the current limit input). This circuit is setup to limit at 5.5 A. If you multiply 5.5 by .075 ohm, you get 412 mV across the resistor Rs. This is divided further by a resistive divider circuit, comprised of RD1 and RD2. They give a formula in the data sheet for calculating RD1 and RD2 for the desired current limit. Tim Drury may not have used the current limit, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you use a coil which requires a separate ballast resistor. The different value for Rs in your circuit is 0.027 ohms, which would give a current limit of about 6 A. Your circuit possibly doesn't use the voltage divider shown in my data sheet, which is added to make the current limit adjustable. As far as finding a resistor for Rs, low value power resistors are kind of scarce. You could consider paralleling several smaller resistors to get the required value. Let's see, this resistor would dissipate about 2.5 W @ 6 A (I^2*R). You could parallel 4 X .1 ohm, 1W resistors (or 10 X .27 ohm .5W) to give .025 ohm @ 4W (.027 ohm @ 5W), more than sufficient for the task. > Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have > seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when > used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with > a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian > for another coil :) Any coil will work, the circuit works by limiting the maximum current into the coil (which keeps it from heating up at low RPM's), which also eliminates the need for the ballast resistor. The ballast resistor ALSO limits current at HIGH RPM's, though, which decreases ignition energy and kindof defeats the purpose... If you decide NOT to use the current limit in the MC3334, then you WOULD need the ballast resistor. To disable the current limit, tie pin 8 to ground. regards, dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From SWELTAN at physio.uct.ac.za Wed Mar 6 09:16:29 1996 From: SWELTAN at physio.uct.ac.za (SANDY) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:16:29 GMT Subject: Fuel Maps Message-ID: On 4 March, Sean wrote: > My main question here is: > How does everyone out there tune the fuel (and ignition) maps on their > system? > I would also be interested in the answer to that question. Has anyone used on-board dynos like the DynoLab or Schrick versions and if so, how succesful was it? Or do you run out of road before you finish one RPM/load combination? Sandy ====================================================================== DR. S.M. WELTAN DEPT OF PHYSIOLOGY Tel. No: (021) 406-6507 UNIVERSITY OF CAPE TOWN Fax No: (021) 47-7669 MEDICAL SCHOOL SOUTH AFRICA e-mail:sweltan at physio.uct.ac.za ====================================================================== From fawkacs at ozemail.com.au Wed Mar 6 10:16:17 1996 From: fawkacs at ozemail.com.au (Michael Fawke) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:16:17 GMT Subject: MC3334 question Message-ID: At 01:42 AM 6/3/1996 -0500, Sandy wrote: >At 09:55 AM 3/6/96 +1000, you wrote: >>Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of >>analogue is _very_ limited.... >> >>On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the >>circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the >>MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article >>on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does >>not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the >>current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or >>can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? >> >I don't have the circuit handy (i'm on the road), but I thought that it had >the sense resistor. The value on the moto data sheet is .075Ohms I think. >Their is also a variable resistor from that to form a simple divider network >that is used to adjust the current that the limiting starts at. The thing >that I remeber from Tim's stuff is that it was the exact same circuit as the >moto data sheet. > Hmmm - nope, the .075 ohm resistor is missing from Tim's circuit (the Net version anyway). What resistor do you use here? Obviously this is not something that you buy off the shelf.... Maybe several pieces of resistance wire to carry the current? Michael Fawke fawkacs at ozemail.com.au From mrb at mpx.com.au Wed Mar 6 11:39:38 1996 From: mrb at mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:39:38 GMT Subject: MC3334 question Message-ID: At 09:55 AM 6/03/96 +1000, you wrote: >Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of >analogue is _very_ limited.... > >On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the >circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the >MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article >on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does >not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the >current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or >can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? > >Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have >seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when >used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with >a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian >for another coil :) > >Thanks in advance. > >PS. Angle sensing using optical light/dark coding on a wheel is _really_ >dark ages stuff. Missed pulse/Long pulse detection is much better. >At least if the sensor fails the whole system stops - what do you think >would happen with a binary encoded wheel? Ugh! - makes me shudder! > >Michael Fawke >fawkacs at ozemail.com.au > > Mike, Most Nissan and Mitsubishi vehicles with engine management systems use optical timing disks. (Have a look in a VL Commodore distributor). As far as the coils go why not take your multimeter with you and measure the damn things if you are not sure. This is DIY EFI after all. regards, Mark Boxsell. From ehernan3 at ford.com Wed Mar 6 13:08:48 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:08:48 GMT Subject: Volumetric eff. Message-ID: "Unless Engine Analyzer is a true airflow solver (with user-defined mesh points, etc) and the user enters info like intake runner cross-section, inertial supercharge index, etc, it is dealing with approximations" I use a true airflow solver on the job. It's called MANDY, which stands for MANifold DYnamics, and is mentioned in papers submitted to various engineering societies and journals(most recently in SAE automotive Engineering last month).It's proprietary, but very accurate. Our mesh isn't user-defined, it's automatically generated. We do input runner lengths and cross-sectional areas(among other things), but there is no 'interial supercharge index', a term we've never heard of. If you mean 'inertial charging', true solvers will calculate it; it's an output, not an input. In spite of it's accuracy, we'll be the first to admit that it's still an approximation. From Bohdan.L.Bodnar at att.com Wed Mar 6 13:43:09 1996 From: Bohdan.L.Bodnar at att.com (Bohdan.L.Bodnar at att.com) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:43:09 GMT Subject: Message-ID: >Bohdan Bodnar wrote: > >> GM and Chrysler MAP sensors have an output which is roughly between 0.1 and >> 4.9 volts. > >This is to allow for mfg. tolerances to gurantee that any given unit will >be within the 0-5V input range of the a/d converter. The zero offset also >provides a little headroom for noise immunity. Actually, the voltage ranges are to allow the computer to test to see whether (1) the output's shorted to ground or (2) whether the output's open (i.e., voltage higher than about 4.9 volts). Noise immunity is achieved by low-pass filtering the signal. >> Ford's MAP sensors (and BMAP sensors) output a variable frequency. At >> atmospheric pressure, the frequency will be between 155 and 159 Hz. >> About a year ago I posted a table which gave output frequency vs. pressure >> for a Ford MAP sensor. > >Would you kindly email this to me, if you still have it kicking around? >Actually, post it to DIY_EFI, there are probably more people who would like >to see it. > >regards >dn I don't have it readily available. Time permitting, I'll dig it up (it's from some Ford training material) and post it early next week. Cordially, Bohdan Bodnar From BCLEMEN at CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU Wed Mar 6 14:30:26 1996 From: BCLEMEN at CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU (Byron Clemens) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:30:26 GMT Subject: VE Message-ID: According to the designer of Engine Analyzer the VE that is output from their program is calculated from many of the various inputs to the program and some estimates. If someone has what they feel is accurate real world data(VE) for a particular engine and they wish to send me the engine data required by EA I will run it through EAv2.5 and post the comparative VE numbers. BYRON CLEMENS BITNET: BCLEMEN at WAYNEST1.BITNET HUMAN RESOURCES APP SPEC I INTERNET: BCLEMEN at CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU 100 ANTOINETTE, ASB #1, RM 156.1 PHONE: (313) 577-2059 Detroit, MI 48202 FAX: (313) 577-8767 From pecampbe at mtu.edu Wed Mar 6 14:46:28 1996 From: pecampbe at mtu.edu (Paul E. Campbell) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:46:28 GMT Subject: inductive vs optical Message-ID: > Missing/short/long pulse detection needs either time or frequency based > detection. (Any other's I've missed?) Phase. But really all three are from the same general concepts. > Car engines run over a relatively wide rpm range, so time-based detection > is out. Incorrect. You need an adaptive system is all (measures changes in the AVERAGE rate or average pulse length, not absolute sensing). The amount of extra stuff to implement this is minimal (564 or a '4040 would probably be overkill). > Frequency based detection is usually done by a phase or frequency locked > loop, either analog or digital. > > Either way, you still have a fairly complex filter to design to ensure > under/over-shoot doesn't cause false (extra or missing) triggering. Excuse me? You run a single active filter loop giving you a second order response (practically infinite shaping possibilities for this case). Takes an op amp and a pair of resistors and capacitors. And it's not even text book..the PLL documentation I have is literally a case of "plug in the numbers" design. For those who want all digital, one uses a lag/lead type phase detector with a down/up input onto the register which stores the modulus on a count to N (or divide by N) register. > Multiple sensors (inductive or optical) remove the need for any loop > filter > design. You do have to allow for sensor failure, and yes, you now have > more sensors which could fail. Sensor sets cost about $3. PLL's cost about $2-$5 (depends on whether or not it's all digital). Pretty much a flip of the coin. > If you use two sensors for angle (eg quadrature encoding), you can test for > either of these failing as well. Ok, so if the engine rocks backwards when > you switch it off will confuse this, but you don't care at this point. > I'd prefer to have the sensor checking than to know how far my engine > rocks back :-) Another advantage of quadrature sensors is you are not entirely SOL if one goes out because it just cuts your resolution in half and negates the possibility of reverse direction sensing. > Generally, I'd say an inductive sensor is more reliable than an optical > sensor. > The sensor itself isn't affect by voltage spikes as much as a LED, > although the > supporting analogue circuitry may be. Inductive sensors require more signal conditioning and they should be fed by alternating current to prevent problems in residual fields. > Development time is the single most expensive part of any design. > Hence three optical sensors (1 for index plus 2 for quadrature angle), a > printed > wheel, an EPLD, about 2 hours of programming, and I'm done. Not in the case of DIY because more development time is GOOD. Remember that DIY's do not account for time so much as the thrill of designing and getting it working. It's not a "get it out the door" problem. I may get flamed with disagreement but "DIY" pretty much implies hobbyist. BTW..how in the world do you get hold of cheap FPGA/EPLD type programmers and the associated compilers? Unless it's a PAL or older GAL's, it seems that the manufacturers want on the order of $0.5-10K for the tools. From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Wed Mar 6 15:26:06 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:26:06 GMT Subject: L-jetronic Message-ID: Hi James There are several books that give details about the Bosch systems. I suggest you get the one by Charles 0. Probst, Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Management. Also find someone who has a copy of the British Car magazine, June & August '95.It talks a little about the minimum equipment needed. I suggest as minimum a fuel pressure gauge to about 60psi for port injection with electric injectors, a voltmeter, and a CO meter. I still don't seem to be on the DIY_EFI distribution, can you tell me if there have been any responses to my original request for information on a Bosch vacuum switch? Werner ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: L-jetronic Author: Non-HP-james (james at brc.ubc.ca) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/5/96 6:19 PM Thanks Werner and welcome to the list !! I usually reply direct instead of to the list (saves time sifting throught the list looking for people who have replied to you). Wow, I'm impressed with your conversion, how did you know it would work??? Similar engine size? I've got the Jeff Hartman book, I agree it's fantastic. I'd be really interested in hearing the story behind this job, your troubles and triumphs etc. I'd like to do something like this some day so I'm trying to learn from other peoples experiences. What equipment do you have for EFI that you can't live without?? I'm looking at fuel pressure guages and am having trouble deciding which one to get. Any advice??? One more thing, can you get me the ISBN number for the Bosch FI book?? Is this the one by Adler ?? Sounds like a good read. thanks again james From fcmefi at fishnet.net Wed Mar 6 15:43:24 1996 From: fcmefi at fishnet.net (Fred Miranda) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:43:24 GMT Subject: MC3334 question Message-ID: could it be, Tim used circuit resistances instead of an actual resistor? I did some coil testing 2 weeks ago in which I scoped the voltage drop across a clip lead leading to the driver ground. > You could consider paralleling several smaller resistors to get the >required value. Let's see, this resistor would dissipate about 2.5 W @ >6 A (I^2*R). You could parallel 4 X .1 ohm, 1W resistors (or 10 X .27 ohm >.5W) to give .025 ohm @ 4W (.027 ohm @ 5W), more than sufficient for the task. If you have good dwell control, the only time you'll approach these dissipation figures is at very high rpm when the duty cycle is highest. one last thing. does anyone know where to get the MC3334 (I could use 10-12) Fred From fcmefi at fishnet.net Wed Mar 6 15:43:25 1996 From: fcmefi at fishnet.net (Fred Miranda) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:43:25 GMT Subject: Fuel Maps Message-ID: >> My main question here is: >> How does everyone out there tune the fuel (and ignition) maps on their >> system? get the best O2 or other air fuel meter you can afford or borrow (an EGT-exhaust gas temp meter is also handy) then, after you get some baseline programming done in the driveway, go drive around. Data logging will make things much easier, esp when speeds climb and or traffic is a problem. the faster the car the harder it is to top end due to road and traffic conditions. as for the ign, I try to start with a curve similar to factory(if I have it) and then tweek it with the aid of the EGT and knock sensor Fred From MSargent at gallium.com Wed Mar 6 16:16:17 1996 From: MSargent at gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:16:17 GMT Subject: Turbo Lag Message-ID: > Here's my thoughts on how to reduce turbo lag. Put the butterfly > valve on the suction side of the compressor. If's there is little to I had a turbo Capri 2.3 with a carb upstream from the turbo. Lag was still a problem. Of course with that car, everything was a problem. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From MSargent at gallium.com Wed Mar 6 16:30:27 1996 From: MSargent at gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:30:27 GMT Subject: Volumetric eff. Message-ID: > A true airflow simulation would take many, many minutes to execute on a > generic '386 PC (or hours). From this fact alone I conclude that Engine > Analyzer is empirical in operation. On my old 486-66 it took perhaps 10 seconds to calculate, and that's only 10 points. You specify the start RPM, and the RPM step, and it calculates for those points until it has done 10 points. It's not my favourite way to specify this sort of thing, but in the end it solves the problems. As for Engine Analyzers accuracy, say hello to Courtney when you get home tonight. :-) I'll make a run and post the output here so people can see what EA outputs. It won't be until Friday, because I'm out of town tommorow. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From lndshrk at xmission.com Wed Mar 6 18:12:40 1996 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:12:40 GMT Subject: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Message-ID: It's a 1M (64k x 16bit) EPROM with MULTIPLEXED A/D lines .. The 28pin pkg has the following pinout ... 1 Vpp 2 n/c 3 *OE 4 *CE 5 n/c 6 AD0 7 AD8 8 AD1 9 AD9 10 AD2 11 AD10 12 AD3 13 AD11 14 GND 15 AD4 16 AD12 17 AD5 18 AD13 19 AD6 20 AD14 21 AD7 22 AD15 23 A16 24 n/c 25 *ALE 26 *BHE 27 *PGM 28 Vcc BTW, these EPROMS are NO LONGER PRODUCED :( Jim Conforti From jhansen777 at gnn.com Wed Mar 6 18:13:08 1996 From: jhansen777 at gnn.com (Jeff Hansen) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:13:08 GMT Subject: inductive vs optical Message-ID: I have been following the "Re: inductive vs optical" thread and quadrature keeps coming up. The _primary_ purpose for quadrature is to determine the direction of rotation. I'm pretty sure :-) that this is not important in this application. The _secondary_ purpose is to allow for a 4x multiplication of encoder resolution by using both edges of both sensors, this could be useful. I use encoders on just about every servo motor in every product that I have designed at work. I would not expect the 1000 line and 2500 line encoders that I use, to live very long under my hood. A 360 line encoder with an index pulse would be nice, but the only real improvement you will probably see would be simpler software. Don't you guys like software? [snip] > This brings up an interesting point... Hewlett Packard makes a chip > specifically for reading optical encoders, which may work great with this > type of system. Assuming you can get the 50% duty cycle waveforms as > mentioned above, (you could have some sort of sensitivity adjustment on > the sensors so it picks up the tooth halfway up and down each ramp) the > chip takes care of the *** QUADRATURE *** decoding and has a built in 16 bit counter [snip] > All you really need is the 2 *** QUADRATURE *** tracks, plus a single "index" marker > which generates a pulse once per revolution. In this manner, you have a sync > pulse which tells you when you have gone one full turn, and simply reference > everything to the sync pulse... [snip] > If you use two sensors for angle (eg *** QUADRATURE *** encoding), you can test for > either of these failing as well. Ok, so if the engine rocks backwards when > you switch it off will confuse this, but you don't care at this point. > I'd prefer to have the sensor checking than to know how far my engine rocks > back :-) Andrew , I know you understand. [snip] > Why? As long as your timing resolution is high enough, and you don't rely > on the micro for doing the *** QUADRATURE *** or handling a zillion interrupts, > a micro should be able to handle up to 7 or 8000 RPM easily. 8000 RPM is > only about 1Khz. Later - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Hansen Anaheim, California, USA JHansen777 at gnn.com http://members.gnn.com/JHansen777/car/index.htm Seven pounds of boost is a 'Good-Thing' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From bowling at cebaf.gov Wed Mar 6 18:42:17 1996 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:42:17 GMT Subject: Volumetric eff. Message-ID: ~ As for Engine Analyzers accuracy, say hello to Courtney when you get home ~ tonight. :-) ~ Darn - I was hoping that EA's results was garbage, so I would NOT have to go back home to Courtney. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU Wed Mar 6 20:00:59 1996 From: dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU (David M Parrish) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:00:59 GMT Subject: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Message-ID: > From: Land Shark > It's a 1M (64k x 16bit) EPROM with MULTIPLEXED A/D lines .. > BTW, these EPROMS are NO LONGER PRODUCED :( But thanks for the information, but - Now you REALLY made my day... Not only is it not standard, which means a custom reader/programmer and databooks that may not even be available anymore, but even if I were masochistic enough to reprogram the box, I can't get extra EPROMs for testing. --- David Parrish Bummed out. From staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us Wed Mar 6 21:36:28 1996 From: staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us (Jim Staff) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:36:28 GMT Subject: inductive vs optical Message-ID: > Check out HP (Hewlett Packard). They make an optical sensor setup that you > can buy different resolution disks for, or make your own. They are the HEDS > 5000, 6000, and 9000 series. They even make one with 360 cpr, and are very > small in size. Coupled with an HCTL2000/2016 quadrature decoder chip, > (X4 resolution, built in 12/16 bit counter w/direction, 8 bit parallel > interface) you have an instant position sensing system with no programming > or fabricating at all. Do you have information on the HED 1000? or know were I can get it. I recently aquired one for free and If I can use it that would save me $3.00.. Thanks.. Jim Staff From lndshrk at xmission.com Wed Mar 6 22:22:06 1996 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 22:22:06 GMT Subject: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Message-ID: At 03:25 PM 3/6/96 +0000, you wrote: >Not only is it not standard, which means a custom reader/programmer >and databooks that may not even be available anymore, but even if I >were masochistic enough to reprogram the box, I can't get extra >EPROMs for testing. How about you find your local FUJITSU seller .. I'll bet ya he has a burner to program these .. and MAYBE even a few blanks ... NEXT .. get the code read ... and disassembled .. Now, even if you CANT get any more .. you can always just make a little daughterboard on a header and use it to translate a regular 27C1024 into a multiplexed arrangement ... No biggie ... (this is where you EE types step in to help ;) Jim From fawkacs at ozemail.com.au Wed Mar 6 23:18:36 1996 From: fawkacs at ozemail.com.au (Michael Fawke) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:18:36 GMT Subject: MC3334 question Message-ID: >>Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have >>seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when >>used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with >>a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian >>for another coil :) >> >As >far as the coils go why not take your multimeter with you and measure the >damn things if you are not sure. This is DIY EFI after all. > > regards, > Mark Boxsell. > Because I have never had much luck in getting a sales person to allow me to open a sealed pack...... Michael Fawke fawkacs at ozemail.com.au From pjwales at magicnet.net Thu Mar 7 01:19:51 1996 From: pjwales at magicnet.net (Peter Wales) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 01:19:51 GMT Subject: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Message-ID: I just might be able to help out here. I have a gadget which can read 87256 devices which are latched 256 eproms, I'll check and see if it can read 1024 devices. I also have a source of 87256's and at the worst we can hook 4 of them upo as a development module. It'll be Friday before I can get to it though so be patient Peter Wales pjwales at magicnet.net President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Thu Mar 7 02:31:28 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (dn) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 02:31:28 GMT Subject: inductive vs optical Message-ID: Jeff Hansen writes > I have been following the "Re: inductive vs optical" thread and quadrature > keeps coming up. The _primary_ purpose for quadrature is to determine the > direction of rotation. I'm pretty sure :-) that this is not important in > this application. The _secondary_ purpose is to allow for a 4x > multiplication of encoder resolution by using both edges of both sensors, > this could be useful. You're right, direction is not an issue. But it does make sense to use quadrature for the error checking and x4 aspects, plus quadrature encoders are readily available. > Don't you guys like software? Solder is my favorite programming language :) regards dn PS - please set your editor to a more manageable line length - it's hard to read your messages. tnx -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From chanwe at ecf.toronto.edu Thu Mar 7 03:00:03 1996 From: chanwe at ecf.toronto.edu (CHAN WEN YEN) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 03:00:03 GMT Subject: free data books Message-ID: AMD will courier free data books to anyone who calls their APPLICATIONS HOTLINE. AMD's EPROM products data book (#17061B) may be of general interest. AMD also publishes , among other things, a cross reference guide. The number to call is (800) 222-9323 CANADA/USA, 0590-8621 FRANCE, 0130-813875 GERMANY. Wenyen Chan chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca From MTaylorfi at aol.com Thu Mar 7 04:59:40 1996 From: MTaylorfi at aol.com (MTaylorfi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 04:59:40 GMT Subject: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Message-ID: In a message dated 96-03-06 21:18:01 EST, you write: >87256's and at the worst we can hook 4 of them upo as a development module. > > From staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us Thu Mar 7 05:07:38 1996 From: staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us (Jim Staff) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:07:38 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: > Looks like a metal case TO-5 transistor with 8 leads and a lens on the end? > > If so, it's basically a reflective sensor with LED and photodetector on the > same die. I'ts focussed to a spot size of .190mm, 4.27mm in front of the > case. It has a photodiode with a single transistor preamp built in. > Shouldn't be too hard to interface to, but making the wheel is going to be > a bear. Why is the wheel going to be a bear. Spot size will allow me to use .2mm marks, the focal points a bit out there but I'll recess the sensor. But what is the output voltage? And the transition time? It's not a big deal because I'm using it on a digital counter circuit so all it has to do is generate a positive or negative going edge >2ns in diration. Opps by the way (I've never used these before) the reflection is the positive voltage right? Thanks... Cool beans! Jim Staff From staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us Thu Mar 7 05:09:33 1996 From: staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us (Jim Staff) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:09:33 GMT Subject: Equations.. Message-ID: I need help with equations for a MAP system. I have this general equation.. PV=nRTe P = pressure [assuming intake from MAP sensor] in KPA V = Displacement of Cylinder in Liters N = moles of atmosphere in Moles R = Universal gas constant : 8.31L/Kpa W/ KPA & Liters T = Absolute temp ?K of intake air [temp sensors job] Could you help me nail down the real units on these things? I'm a second year chemistry student, and I know this simple Gas law but I don't know the units in this Application!!! e = Volumetric Efficiency Unitless Could someone provide a formula to just get a cheap estimate of this term. I can't solve for it since I have no empirical data, also no staight substitutions work either: as the e terms will cancel. I have a briggs and stratton engine, and those bastards won't give me volumetric efficiency information at all. They said that it wasn't even availible. I said bullshit if the didn't know Ve they wouldn't know other general things like fuel consumption and torque. I even said I didn't care if the values weren't worth shit. Please help me, I'm a High school hobbiest. I have no access to high tech equipment like dyno's and bench equipment. My life sucks, Thanks for your concern, Jim Staff From MTaylorfi at aol.com Thu Mar 7 05:10:28 1996 From: MTaylorfi at aol.com (MTaylorfi at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:10:28 GMT Subject: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Message-ID: In a message dated 96-03-06 21:18:01 EST, you write: >87256's and at the worst we can hook 4 of them **upo** as a development module. > > ^^^ Peter, Don't you have a spell checker down there!!!! See ya, Mike From klopfer at eagle.natinst.com Thu Mar 7 05:18:48 1996 From: klopfer at eagle.natinst.com (Mike Klopfer) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:18:48 GMT Subject: fpga compilers Message-ID: I've seen free versions of MACH and Lattice isp series FPGA compilers, there's also some other free compilers I saw on a FPGA www site but none seemed to be for the big FPGAs. I don't know how the size of these FPGAs compares with big stuff from Altera or Xilinx. Also I saw an ad for Cypress VHDL compiler for $99. From fawkacs at ozemail.com.au Thu Mar 7 10:17:43 1996 From: fawkacs at ozemail.com.au (Michael Fawke) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:17:43 GMT Subject: Has anyone built their own EFI system yet? Message-ID: Has anyone actually got a working EFI system running yet? By that I mean a self-designed, computer based unit which will run an engine. >From reading the mail so far (only subscribed last week), it sounds like the electronics engineers are trying to develop discrete logic based systems, while the computing types are stuck on sensor design. How about everyone co-operating so we can all benefit? Michael Fawke fawkacs at ozemail.com.au From mrb at mpx.com.au Thu Mar 7 11:17:21 1996 From: mrb at mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:17:21 GMT Subject: inductive vs optical Message-ID: At 11:43 AM 6/03/96 S, you wrote: >Sensor problems give you the same problems regardless of sensor type >(inductive, optical, ESP). >If a sensor isn't working, you don't know what's happening. Period. Inductive pickups are a bitch to work with. There is "nothing to go wrong" but they are prone to RFI big time. (Although the LM1815 seems to work quite well) > >Car engines run over a relatively wide rpm range, so time-based detection > >is out. I would have to severely disagree big time with this comment. How the hell do you think 90% of the factory systems work !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >Generally, I'd say an inductive sensor is more reliable than an optical >sensor. A coil of wire is pretty reliable ! >The sensor itself isn't affect by voltage spikes as much as a LED, >although the >supporting analogue circuitry may be. True. > >Unfortunately, it's not easy to design an inductive pickup which will >work from >cranking speed through to red-line. Why ? Everyone (OEM's) does it. >Regards, >Andrew Dalgleish >Axon Research, Pty Ltd >6 Wallace Ave, >Toorak, VIC >3142 >AUSTRALIA >Tel +61-3-9826-5538 >Fax +61-3-9824-0083 > Sorry Andrew but when I see stuff that is a bit strange I have to point it out. regards, Mark Boxsell. From dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU Thu Mar 7 13:13:24 1996 From: dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU (David M Parrish) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:13:24 GMT Subject: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Message-ID: > How about you find your local FUJITSU seller .. I'll bet ya he has a burner > to program these .. and MAYBE even a few blanks ... > > NEXT .. get the code read ... and disassembled .. > > Now, even if you CANT get any more .. you can always just make a little > daughterboard on a header and use it to translate a regular 27C1024 into > a multiplexed arrangement ... > > No biggie ... (this is where you EE types step in to help ;) Yeah, yeah. But with working full time, driving two hours a day, building an airplane, rewiring an engine and designing an engine mount, following the '332 project and some competitive shooting on weekends, who has time to hassle with an odd ball EPROM? --- David Parrish Oh, did I mention playing entirely too much Doom? From atsakiri at ford.com Thu Mar 7 14:21:41 1996 From: atsakiri at ford.com (atsakiri at ford.com) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:21:41 GMT Subject: Equations.. Message-ID: > I need help with equations for a MAP system. I have this > general equation. > > PV=nRTe > P = pressure [assuming intake from MAP sensor] in KPA > V = Displacement of Cylinder in Liters > N = moles of atmosphere in Moles > R = Universal gas constant : 8.31L/Kpa W/ KPA & Liters > T = Absolute temp !K of intake air [temp sensors job] > > Could you help me nail down the real units on these > things? I'm a second year chemistry student, and I know this > simple Gas law but I don't know the units in this Application!!! Here's one set of units that'll work: P in pascals V in meters^3 n in moles R = 8.3143 joules/(mole*deg Kelvin) T in deg Kelvin > > e = Volumetric Efficiency Unitless > > Could someone provide a formula to just get > a cheap estimate of this term. I can't solve for it since > I have no empirical data, also no staight substitutions work > either: as the e terms will cancel. Yes, e is unitless. A very cheap formula is e(engine speed, manifold pressure) = 0.85. This is a great simplification of course, but is useful in getting started. [snip] Good luck, Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From ehernan3 at ford.com Thu Mar 7 14:42:08 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:42:08 GMT Subject: Equations.. Message-ID: Jim Staff, try this instead: PV=mRT, where P=pressure in pascals(not kPa) V=volume in m^3(cubic meters, not liters) m=mass of air in the volume, kg R=287 kJ/(K * kg) for air T=absolute temperature in K This one does away with moles. I'll make a bold assumption that you know what a derivative is(if not, we'll explain). Take the derivative of each side of that equation with respect to time and you get: P(dV/dt)=(dm/dt)RT, where t=time, seconds dV/dt=volume flow rate in m^3/s. A more common unit is CFM, but you can perform the conversion dm/dt=mass flow rate in kg/s. A more common unit is lbs/hr, but... Rearrange to solve for dm/dt, which is what you are really after: dm/dt=P(dV/dt)/(R*T) Now, R is constant, you can measure P with a MAP, T with an air charge temperature(ACT) sensor. Throw in Volumetric Efficiency(called eta, but I can't type in greek, so I'll call it N which looks similar) as a correction factor for dV/dt: dm/dt=P(N*dV/dt)/(R*T) Now dV/dt becomes a constant(it's your engine or cylinder displacement), and you need to predict N(that's you asked in the first place, huh?). That's tough to predict without any measuring equipment at all. You could assume a relatively safe, constant number like 70%, but without measuring SOMETHING, you'll never know how close that is or how it changes with rpm at wide open throttle(WOT). What are you building, kart? Powerplant? Tell us and I'm sure someone can help you figure out a way to qualitatively determine your WOT volumetric efficiency. I'm thinking you could try to monitor exhaust gas temperature(EGT) vs rpm, which can be done without a dyno. Hey, glad to see a high school student trying stuff like this. Life doesn't suck after all! From bowling at cebaf.gov Thu Mar 7 15:38:16 1996 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 15:38:16 GMT Subject: Equations.. Message-ID: ~ ~ Jim Staff, try this instead: ~ ~ PV=mRT, where ~ ~ P=pressure in pascals(not kPa) ~ V=volume in m^3(cubic meters, not liters) ~ m=mass of air in the volume, kg ~ R=287 kJ/(K * kg) for air ~ T=absolute temperature in K ~ ~ This one does away with moles. I'll make a bold assumption that you ~ know what a derivative is(if not, we'll explain). Take the derivative ~ of each side of that equation with respect to time and you get: ~ ~ P(dV/dt)=(dm/dt)RT, where ~ ~ t=time, seconds ~ dV/dt=volume flow rate in m^3/s. A more common unit is CFM, but you ~ can perform the conversion ~ dm/dt=mass flow rate in kg/s. A more common unit is lbs/hr, but... ~ ~ Rearrange to solve for dm/dt, which is what you are really after: ~ ~ dm/dt=P(dV/dt)/(R*T) ~ ~ Now, R is constant, you can measure P with a MAP, T with an air charge ~ temperature(ACT) sensor. ~ ~ Throw in Volumetric Efficiency(called eta, but I can't type in greek, ~ so I'll call it N which looks similar) as a correction factor for ~ dV/dt: ~ ~ dm/dt=P(N*dV/dt)/(R*T) ~ ~ Now dV/dt becomes a constant(it's your engine or cylinder ~ displacement), and you need to predict N(that's you asked in the first ~ place, huh?). That's tough to predict without any measuring equipment ~ at all. You could assume a relatively safe, constant number like 70%, ~ but without measuring SOMETHING, you'll never know how close that is ~ or how it changes with rpm at wide open throttle(WOT). ~ ~ What are you building, kart? Powerplant? Tell us and I'm sure someone ~ can help you figure out a way to qualitatively determine your WOT ~ volumetric efficiency. I'm thinking you could try to monitor exhaust ~ gas temperature(EGT) vs rpm, which can be done without a dyno. ~ ~ Hey, glad to see a high school student trying stuff like this. Life ~ doesn't suck after all! ~ This explanation is EXCELLENT!!!! This should go on the DIY_EFY WWW page. Good work, Mr. R) (whoever you are.....). - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From atsakiri at ford.com Thu Mar 7 16:00:38 1996 From: atsakiri at ford.com (atsakiri at ford.com) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:00:38 GMT Subject: Equations.. Message-ID: > PV=mRT, where I prefer that form too. Engineers seem to use m (mass), chemists seem to use n (moles). Either works as long as you keep track of the universal gas constant units. The notation I've seen includes a bar over the R for the molar version. _ R = R/M where M is a gases molecular mass (about 29 for air) > R=287 kJ/(K * kg) for air There may be a factor of 1000 problem here. Someone please check the following math! _ R = 8.3 J/(mole*K) _ R = R/M = { 8.3 J/(mole*K) } / { 29 g/mole } = 0.287 J/(g*K) = 0.287 kJ/(kg*K) > Hey, glad to see a high school student trying stuff like this. Yes, me too. Keep at it. Anthony Tsakiris Notation: P = pressure V = cylinder volume R = gas constant for a specific gas _ R = universal gas constant T = absolute temperature M = molecular mass --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From allnight at everett.net Thu Mar 7 16:09:58 1996 From: allnight at everett.net (Johnny) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:09:58 GMT Subject: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Message-ID: David M Parrish wrote: > > > How about you find your local FUJITSU seller .. I'll bet ya he has a burner > > to program these .. and MAYBE even a few blanks ... > > > > NEXT .. get the code read ... and disassembled .. > > > > Now, even if you CANT get any more .. you can always just make a little > > daughterboard on a header and use it to translate a regular 27C1024 into > > a multiplexed arrangement ... > > > > No biggie ... (this is where you EE types step in to help ;) > > Yeah, yeah. But with working full time, driving two hours a day, > building an airplane, rewiring an engine and designing an engine > mount, following the '332 project and some competitive shooting on > weekends, who has time to hassle with an odd ball EPROM? > David, you could eliminate all but the "building an airplane" from the above list and still not have enough time to screw around with an oddball EPROM. Now you can see why I went with the aftermarket system to get the prototype engine ready to fly, and then after that trying to do my own EFI for it. BTW, where are you in the building process now? -j- From orlin-s at rclsgi Thu Mar 7 16:27:55 1996 From: orlin-s at rclsgi (orlin steven jared) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:27:55 GMT Subject: Equations.. Message-ID: > PV=nRTe > P = pressure [assuming intake from MAP sensor] in KPA > V = Displacement of Cylinder in Liters > N = moles of atmosphere in Moles > R = Universal gas constant : 8.31L/Kpa W/ KPA & Liters > T = Absolute temp ?K of intake air [temp sensors job] > > Could you help me nail down the real units on these things? I'm a > second year chemistry student, and I know this simple Gas law but I don't know > the units in this Application!!! You're a second year chemistry student and you don't have a chem book with these units written inside the front cover ? %-) Pressure has dimensions: force/length squared Volume has dimensions: length cubed n has no dimensions (primary dimensions anyways) the units are moles T has secondary dimension, temperature (sometimes a primary dimension). Knowing the above, you can rearrange the equation and get the dimensions and therefor, units, of the universal gas constant (which I always forget myself). I have never seen the ideal gas law used in conjunction with volumetric efficiency like you state above, however. That doesn't mean that it isn't -I just haven't seen it. Maybe someone else can elaborate. There are many ways to calculate volumetric efficiency. I can bring in some formulas later. But typical values for spark ignition engines run about .5-1 (1 being an all out race engine). Steve From atsakiri at ford.com Thu Mar 7 16:57:27 1996 From: atsakiri at ford.com (atsakiri at ford.com) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 16:57:27 GMT Subject: Volumetric efficiency (Re: Equations..) Message-ID: With regard to determining volumetric efficiency ... You need some form of air flow meter to measure the actual amount of air that is inducted by the engine. (This actual measurement is then compared to the displacement of the engine.) The air flow meter doesn't have to be fancy or even electronic. Jim (Staff), the simplest approach I can think of is to use a standard orifice or a laminar flow meter. You can use a simple water manometer to measure the pressure drop across these devices (just make sure that all the air that goes into your engine goes through the device too - buy some duct tape). To convert from pressure drop to mass flow rate, you'll need to know the flow coefficient for the standard orifice or a calibration curve for the laminar flow meter. Ask your physics teacher if your school has such equipment. Anthony Tsakiris From ehernan3 at ford.com Thu Mar 7 17:26:38 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:26:38 GMT Subject: Equations.. Message-ID: > There may be a factor of 1000 problem here. Someone please > check the following math! > _ > R = 8.3 J/(mole*K) > _ > R = R/M = { 8.3 J/(mole*K) } / { 29 g/mole } = 0.287 J/(g*K) > = 0.287 kJ/(kg*K) Your math is correct, but I posted the wrong units in the formula. R is actually in units of J/(kg*K), not kJ/(kg*K) as I first posted. Substitue "R=287 J/(kg*K)" instead of "R=287 kJ/(kg*K)" and the units will work out in the formula as originally posted. Gee, you guys are sharp! Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From MSargent at gallium.com Thu Mar 7 18:07:21 1996 From: MSargent at gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:07:21 GMT Subject: Engine Analyzer Message-ID: Recently there has been some discussion about the accuracy of commercial programs like Engine Analyzer. I've been playing with Engine Analyzer, and I'm fairly impressed. They claim +/- 15% accuaracy between their calculations and a real dyno test. Here is a list of the inputs available to EA. This list was something I cribbed up to create a spec sheet for an engine, so there may be an error or two. You'll note that some inputs seem redundant. That is because EA allows you to enter a measured value, or if you don't have one it will estimate from other characteristics. For example, it I have an intake manifold tested on a flow bench, then I can enter those values directly. If not, then by entering shape, diameter, length, etc., EA will estimate the flow rating. Obviously, a measurement is more accurate than an estimate. ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- Engine Specifications Base Engine Bore, inches Stroke, inches Number of cylinders Compression ratio Clearance Head combustion chamber volume, cc's Piston dome volume, cc's Gasket thickness, inches Deck height, inches Mill Inches milled Percentage of bore area Accessories 0 - Race engine, no accessories, on dynamometer 1 - Production engine, no accessories, on dynamometer 1 - Race Drag engine, in vehicle 2 - Production engine, min. accessories, in vehicle 2 - Road race engine, in vehicle 3 - '1970s' production engine, in vehicle 4 - 'Pre 1970s' production engine, in vehicle Intake System Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Runner diameter, inches Runner width, inches Runner height, inches Oval/Rectangular shape (O/R) Runner length, inches Valve flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow, standard CFM Runner flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow (less runner), standard CFM Runner diameter, inches Flow (with runner), standard CFM Intake Type 1 - Dual plane manifold 2 - Single plane manifold (street) 3 - Single plane manifold (race) 4 - Production 'long runner' injected 5 - Individual runner (IR) carburetors 6 - Individual fuel injector stacks Intake heat (Yes/No) Carburetor/Throttle-body flow rating, CFM Total number of primary barrels Primary throttle diameter, inches Total number of secondary barrels Secondary throttle diameter, inches Vacuum secondary (Yes/No) Exhaust System Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Runner diameter, inches Runner width, inches Runner height, inches Oval/Rectangular shape (O/R) Runner length, inches Valve flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow, standard CFM Runner flow coefficient Flow bench test pressure, "H2O Number of valves per cylinder Valve diameter, inches Valve lift, inches Flow (less runner), standard CFM Runner diameter, inches Flow (with runner), standard CFM Exhaust system CFM rating, CFM Original engine HP Vehicle type (Race/Sport/Quiet) Cam/Valve Train Intake cam specifications Open @ 0.050", degrees BTDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Close @ 0.050", degrees ABDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Maximum lobe lift at tappet, inches Lash at valve, inches Rocker arm ratio Exhaust cam specifications Open @ 0.050", degrees BBDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Close @ 0.050", degrees ATDC Centerline Lobe centerline, crankshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Separation Lobe separation, camshaft degrees Duration @ 0.050", crankshaft degrees Maximum lobe lift at tappet, inches Lash at valve, inches Rocker arm ratio Cam advance, degrees Supercharger Supercharger present (Yes/No) Supercharger type (Centrifugal/Racing roots/Street roots/Turbo) Boost limit, "Hg Intercooler efficiency, % 0 - No intercooler 50 -Typical intercooler 100 - 'Perfect' intercooler 150 - 'Cooled' intercooler Centrifugal/Roots belt ratio Supercharger pulley diameter, inches Crank pulley diameter, inches Roots volume per revolution, cubic inches Relative turbo size (Small/Medium/Large/Xtra large) Calculate Performance Environmental conditions Barometric pressure, "Hg Intake air temperature, degrees Fahrenheit Relative humidity, % Relative humidity temperature, degrees Fahrenheit Elevation, feet Coolant temperature, degrees Fahrenheit Nitrous oxide specifications Nitrous oxide system rating, HP RPM to start nitrous RPM for full nitrous Gas/Alcohol (G/A) Rpm's to Run Starting RPM Number of Rpm's RPM increment Recommended runner dimensions For this RPM Specified intake runner length, inches ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- With all those inputs, EA also puts out a fairly complete "dyno sheet" as well as graphing torque and HP vs RPM (including overplotting two runs so you can see the differences. ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- ------ ENGINE COMMENTS --------------------------------------------------- Mercruiser MC470 Stock Rated at 170 HP; Suggested peak RPM is 4400 RPM ------ PROJECTED PERFORMANCE --------------------------------------------- RPM 600 1200 1800 2400 3000 3600 4200 4800 5400 6000 BRK TQ 190 208 218 220 222 222 207 187 164 139 BRK HP 21.8 47.6 74.8 101 127 152 166 171 169 159 EX PRS .1 .3 .8 1.5 2.4 3.5 4.4 5.1 5.7 6.1 IN VAC 0.0 0.0 .1 .2 .3 .4 .5 .6 .7 .7 VE % 67.7 74.5 78.9 81.4 83.8 85.8 83.0 79.5 75.3 70.2 CFM 28.3 62.3 99.0 136 175 215 243 266 283 293 FL FLW 10.4 22.9 36.3 49.9 64.3 78.9 89.0 97.6 104 108 BSFC .477 .480 .485 .496 .507 .518 .537 .571 .615 .678 BSAC 5.966 6.006 6.068 6.206 6.340 6.477 6.710 7.135 7.686 8.471 FRN HP 2 5 9 14 21 29 39 49 61 73 MACH # .063 .127 .190 .253 .317 .380 .443 .507 .570 .633 PSN SP 375 750 1125 1500 1875 2250 2625 3000 3375 3750 PSN GS 25 98 221 392 613 882 1201 1568 1985 2450 OV %VE -.4 -.4 -.4 -.4 -.3 -.3 -.3 -.3 -.2 -.2 IN VEL 23 47 70 93 116 140 163 186 209 233 IN TNP 0.0 0.0 .2 .5 1.0 1.5 1.8 2.1 2.3 2.4 IN OVP 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 EX VEL 38 77 115 153 192 230 268 307 345 384 EX OVP 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 -.1 -.3 -.7 -1.2 -1.5 OCTANE 130+ 120 110 105 100 100 95 90 85 85 ------ VALVE FLOW & CAM CALCULATIONS ------------------- --INT-- --EXH-- OVERLAP AREA, SQ IN*DEG 2.3 VALVE AVG FLOW COEF .284 .321 VALVE EXH/INT % 73.7 TOTAL AVG FLOW COEF .278 .312 TOTAL EXH/INT % 73.3 LOBE AREA, INCH*DEG 20.47 22.40 LOBE SEPARATION, CAM DEG 112.0 VLV AREA, SQ IN*DEG 252.2 185.9 LOBE CENTERLINES 107.0 117.0 ------ GENERAL ENGINE CALCULATIONS --------------------------------------- DISPLACEMENT, ccs 3670.6 DISPLACEMENT, cu in 223.95 STATIC VOL EFF, % 79.0 COMPRESSION RATIO 8.80 THEO. CRANK COMPRSSN, PSI 190 CLEARANCE VOLUME, ccs 117.6 CARB MINIMUM WOT RPM 870 EST INT CLOSING, DEG ABC 61.9 ------ RECOMMENDED RUNNER DIMENSIONS @ 5000 RPM ------- --AREA-- --DIA-- INTAKE DIMENSIONS ( FOR 1 RUNNER/CYLINDER ): REC INERTIA LEN, IN 11.7 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 3.17 2.01 SPEC INERTIA LEN, IN 11.0 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 2.98 1.95 REC LEN, 2ND PULSE 28.9 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 7.82 3.16 REC LEN, 3RD PULSE 20.8 REC AREA, SQ IN/IN 5.63 2.68 EXHAUST DIMENSIONS ( FOR 1750 FT/SEC & 1 RUNNER/CYLINDER ): REC LEN, 1ST PULSE 59.3 REC AREA, 300 FT/SEC 2.59 1.817 REC LEN, 2ND PULSE 27.0 PRIMARY TUBE O.D. 2.000 ---------------------------------- Cut Here ---------------------------------- Engine Analyzer comes with a 166 page manual explaining all of this, but I'll just repeat the explainations for the rows under PROJECTED PERFORMANCE to make the above example easier to understand. RPM Engines rotational speed in Revolutions Per Minute BRK TQ Brake Torque in foot pounds - usable net torque at flywheel BRK HP Brake Horse Power - usable net power at flywheel EX PRS Exhaust Pressuse in inches of mercury measured after manifold IN VAC Intake Vaccum in inches of mercury after the throttle body VE % Volumetric Efficiency as a percentage - % cylinder fills and remains CFM Flow rating of air into the engine in Cubic Feet per Minute FL FLW Fuel Flow in pounds per hour (gasoline or methanol) BSFC Brake Specific Fuel Consumption in pounds per horsepower hour BSAC Brake Specific Air Consumption in pounds per horsepower hour FRN HP Friction HorsePower - power lost in internal friction and accesories MACH # Mean or Average Mach Number - see paper SAE 790484 PSN SP Piston Speed in feet per minute PSN GS Piston Acceleration in Gs at TDC - helps establish a red-line OV %VE Overlap Contribution to Volumetric Efficiency- due to overlap scavenging IN VEL Average Intake Runner Velocity in feet per second IN TNP Intake Inertia Tuning Pressure in inches of mercury IN OVP Intake Overlap Pressure from Resonance Tuning in inches of mercury EX VEL Average Exhaust Runner Velocity in feet per second EX OVP Exhaust Overlap Pressure from Resonance and Inertia Tuning - ft/sec OCTANE Fuel Octane Required - estimated RM required for peak performance And finally: Engine Analyzer, v2.1 Performance Trends, Inc. PO Box 573 Dearborn Heights, MI 48127 1(810)473-9230 Summit Racing sells EA for about $80US. There is an Engine Analyzer Pro version which sells for around $500US and includes the following: - Valve train dynamics - Sophisticated detonation predictions - Full 4-cycle calculations for modeling of unusual or complex engine designs. (This feature significantly increases execution time.) Engine Analyzer is an MS-DOS program (runs under Windows 95). Requirements are minimal (IBM PC, XT, AT, PS/2 or 100% compatible; 512K of RAM, MS-DOS 2.0 or higher). Graphs are EGA resolution (or CGA if mono), but are acceptable. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From sandyg at interramp.com Thu Mar 7 18:33:33 1996 From: sandyg at interramp.com (Sandy) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:33:33 GMT Subject: MC3334 question Message-ID: I called newark, and they are in stock, so they said. At 07:42 AM 3/6/96 GMT, you wrote: >could it be, Tim used circuit resistances instead of an actual resistor? >I did some coil testing 2 weeks ago in which I scoped the voltage drop >across a clip lead leading to the driver ground. > >> You could consider paralleling several smaller resistors to get the >>required value. Let's see, this resistor would dissipate about 2.5 W @ >>6 A (I^2*R). You could parallel 4 X .1 ohm, 1W resistors (or 10 X .27 ohm >>.5W) to give .025 ohm @ 4W (.027 ohm @ 5W), more than sufficient for the task. > >If you have good dwell control, the only time you'll approach these dissipation >figures is at very high rpm when the duty cycle is highest. > >one last thing. does anyone know where to get the MC3334 (I could use 10-12) > >Fred > > From ehernan3 at ford.com Thu Mar 7 18:36:27 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:36:27 GMT Subject: Volumetric efficiency (Re: Equations..) Message-ID: > With regard to determining volumetric efficiency ... > > You need some form of air flow meter to measure the actual > amount of air that is inducted by the engine. (This actual > measurement is then compared to the displacement of the engine.) > The air flow meter doesn't have to be fancy or even electronic. > Jim (Staff), the simplest approach I can think of is to use > a standard orifice or a laminar flow meter. You can use a > simple water manometer to measure the pressure drop across > these devices (just make sure that all the air that goes > into your engine goes through the device too - buy some duct > tape). To convert from pressure drop to mass flow rate, you'll > need to know the flow coefficient for the standard orifice or > a calibration curve for the laminar flow meter. Ask your physics > teacher if your school has such equipment. Remember that one of Jim Staff's problems is that he has no dyno. This method requires steady state loading at WOT. I'd like to know what he's building first. From bowling at cebaf.gov Thu Mar 7 18:47:26 1996 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:47:26 GMT Subject: Equations.. Message-ID: ~ Substitue "R=287 J/(kg*K)" instead of "R=287 kJ/(kg*K)" and the units ~ will work out in the formula as originally posted. Gee, you guys are ~ sharp! ~ ~ Isn't it great??? This list is much more productive than a room full of engineers, and more fun. Who knows, one day there may be a official DIY_EFI conference (face-to-face)! - Bruce From MSargent at gallium.com Thu Mar 7 19:41:14 1996 From: MSargent at gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 19:41:14 GMT Subject: Engine Analyzer Message-ID: (Sorry about sending that twice. I thought I had cancelled it the first time.) Anyways... I was talking to Performance Trends, and Engine Analyzer is now up to v2.5 (and now sells for about $100US at Summit). The fellow I was talking to listed off a long list of changes, so I'll be updating my copy ASAP. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Thu Mar 7 21:09:26 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 21:09:26 GMT Subject: L-jetronic Message-ID: Hi James I am still not receiving any DIY_EFI messages except a few addressed to me. So if you see a reply to my request let me know. Thanks The ISBN numbers The Probst book 0-8376-0300-5 The bosch L-Jetronic pamphlet, only L-Jetronic, similar to a chapter in above book 1-85-226008-4 Your analog meter is fine. I do not recommend the use of the oxygen sensor with an intake manifold designed for a carburetter. Most likely it will not be able to run lean at low rpm. The oxygen sensor will run the car too lean at idle. CO meters are available from Moss Motors, JC whitney. expect to pay about $150 Nothin for EFI is cheap!!!! A fuel pressure gauge is a must. The range will depend on the type of system that you will be using. If you can get an oscilloscope, that is helpful once the car is running but not essential. Werner ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: L-jetronic Author: Non-HP-james (james at brc.ubc.ca) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/5/96 6:19 PM Thanks Werner and welcome to the list !! I usually reply direct instead of to the list (saves time sifting throught the list looking for people who have replied to you). Wow, I'm impressed with your conversion, how did you know it would work??? Similar engine size? I've got the Jeff Hartman book, I agree it's fantastic. I'd be really interested in hearing the story behind this job, your troubles and triumphs etc. I'd like to do something like this some day so I'm trying to learn from other peoples experiences. What equipment do you have for EFI that you can't live without?? I'm looking at fuel pressure guages and am having trouble deciding which one to get. Any advice??? One more thing, can you get me the ISBN number for the Bosch FI book?? Is this the one by Adler ?? Sounds like a good read. thanks again james From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Thu Mar 7 22:49:11 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:49:11 GMT Subject: Message-ID: Hi James You are, of course, correct. I was thinking about a throttle body. I don't recommend a running a O2 sensor with a throttle body unless the manifold is heated, or is designed for FI. Also it's worth considering if the engine is meant to run at stoichiometric. I prefer to run it at the mixture that was intended for the engine. Besides running a little rich gives a little more power and runs cooler. The problem is fuel condensing out in the manifold and thus changing the mixture (with a throttle body). And more - some of the '70's cars require a rich mixture for the smog stuff to work correctly. Not all Catalytic converters are '3 -way catalytic converters. Some are not even Catalytic (MGB) I've been told. These actually act like an afterburner, and need some fuel (rich) to keep things hot. I suspect the A/F meter you are mentioning for $30 are devices hooked up to the O2 sensor. Anything hooked to a normal O2 sensor can only measure the mixture around stoichiometric. It can't measure mixtures that are rich like you get with cars designed for carburettors or when you tune for max power. The CO meter I mentioned is something you stick up the tail pipe. Not as good as the ones at emission testing stations, but a lot cheaper. Ideally you want to measure the Air, Fuel ratio. none measure that directly. If you measure the Oxygen (Oxygen sensor) or the Carbon Monoxide CO meter (that measures exhaust density) you can infer the A/F mixture. I think I'm on the DIY EMI list now. I'll see if this message comes back to me. I still haven't had any replies to my original message. Werner Colorado ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Author: Non-HP-james (james at brc.ubc.ca) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/7/96 2:30 PM Hello again What's the theory behind why a O2 sensor won't work in a maifold that has been machined to accept injectors just upstream of the intake valve?? Or were you talking about throttle body injection ??? I've seen a couple of conversions (in books) that do this and incorporate an O2 sensor...I never thought of this before...interesting. What about A/F meters...I've seen some people talking about these...they a supposedly only $30.00 Ever used one or know what they are talking about??? I don't know what these measure HC, CO or CO2 ??? Ya I'll keep my eye peeled...I'll check out the DIY EFI home page later today and see if I can find the instructions I used to subscribe. See if they are any different to what you used. Say where are you located ?? I'm in Vancouver B.C. Canada. later and thanks for the ISBN numbers jw From salendro at melsa.net.id Fri Mar 8 00:48:08 1996 From: salendro at melsa.net.id (yudhiar ariestono) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 00:48:08 GMT Subject: LAMBDA SENSOR Message-ID: HELLO, DOES ANYBODY CAN HELP ME TO FIND A LAMBDA (OXYGEN) SENSOR SELLER IN SINGAPORE. THANKYOU. From jengel at FastLane.NET Fri Mar 8 03:23:16 1996 From: jengel at FastLane.NET (jengel at FastLane.NET) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 03:23:16 GMT Subject: Equations.. Message-ID: > From: Bruce Bowling > Isn't it great??? This list is much more productive than a room > full of engineers, and more fun. Who knows, one day there may be a > official DIY_EFI conference (face-to-face)! > > - Bruce > Great idea! Which continent? ;) je From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Fri Mar 8 05:01:38 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (dn) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 05:01:38 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: Jim: > Why is the wheel going to be a bear. Spot size will allow me to use .2mm > marks, the focal points a bit out there but I'll recess the sensor. This kind of accuracy requires photo reduction techniques, ya can't just bang one out on your dot matrix... Not cheep and not quick... You'd be much better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. > But what is the output voltage? And the transition time? No idea. The only app circuit I have for this is pretty easy, though. First, supply the LED (pin 6) via about a 120 ohm resistor to 5v, this will give you around 30 mA LED current. (pin 4 is LED ground) The detector circuit is dead simple. Tie the photodiode cathode (pin 3) to +5v. Put in a 100k resistor from pin 1 to +5v, this is RL. Put a 10 Meg feedback resistor from pin 1 to pin 2. Tie pin 8 to ground. That's all there is to it. Oh yeah, output voltage is also taken from pin 1. I have no idea what the output voltage from this circuit is, just breadboard it up and find out. You may need an extra stage of amplification and a schmitt trigger to clean it up for your counter logic. If you need more info than that, you'll have to contact HP and get some app notes, I haven't used the thing before, either... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From MTaylorfi at aol.com Fri Mar 8 05:35:06 1996 From: MTaylorfi at aol.com (MTaylorfi at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 05:35:06 GMT Subject: No Subject Message-ID: pplies to a static situation. Again rather boring for an engine... See ya, Mike From andrewd at axonet.com.au Fri Mar 8 09:09:21 1996 From: andrewd at axonet.com.au (Andrew Dalgleish) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:09:21 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: On Thursday, 7 March 1996 21:53, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: > > Jim: > > > Why is the wheel going to be a bear. Spot size will allow me to use .2mm > > marks, the focal points a bit out there but I'll recess the sensor. > > This kind of accuracy requires photo reduction techniques, ya can't just bang > one out on your dot matrix... Not cheep and not quick... Photo reduction isn't that expensive. I've done it by taking a shot with a 120 camera and using the negative. Most wedding photographers could do it for you, probably for a few beers. I've also seen a sticky metalic (so it doesn't stretch) tape with light/dark bands on it. You just wrap this around a shaft a few times until the stripes line up. > You'd be much > better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like > a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. That's less than 28 hours at 6000 rpm. Are you sure there isn't another 1000 in there? > > > But what is the output voltage? And the transition time? > > No idea. The only app circuit I have for this is pretty easy, though. > First, supply the LED (pin 6) via about a 120 ohm resistor to 5v, this will > give you around 30 mA LED current. (pin 4 is LED ground) > > The detector circuit is dead simple. Tie the photodiode cathode (pin 3) to > +5v. Put in a 100k resistor from pin 1 to +5v, this is RL. Put a 10 Meg > feedback resistor from pin 1 to pin 2. Tie pin 8 to ground. That's all > there is to it. Oh yeah, output voltage is also taken from pin 1. I have > no idea what the output voltage from this circuit is, just breadboard it up > and find out. You may need an extra stage of amplification and a schmitt > trigger to clean it up for your counter logic. > > If you need more info than that, you'll have to contact HP and get some > app notes, I haven't used the thing before, either... > Sounds a *lot* better than using separate led/phototransistor. > regards > dn > > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca > Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell > Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 > Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 > @ + > < > __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Senior Software Engineer Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 From tdrury at SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu Fri Mar 8 13:39:34 1996 From: tdrury at SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu (tdrury at SPBTED.gtri.gatech.edu) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:39:34 GMT Subject: MC3334 question Message-ID: > Hmmm - nope, the .075 ohm resistor is missing from Tim's circuit (the Net > version anyway). What resistor do you use here? Obviously this is not > something that you buy off the shelf.... Maybe several pieces of resistance > wire to carry the current? Oops. It got left off the schematic. When I couldn't find a 0.075 ohm resister I found some 12 guage wire and ran about an inch or so. Between the wire and the PCB ground plane I ended up with about 0.075 ohms. (yes, I did subtract off the resistance for the ohmmeter leads). -tim From bprozier at bnr.ca Fri Mar 8 14:28:43 1996 From: bprozier at bnr.ca (bryan (b.p.) rozier) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:28:43 GMT Subject: CO sensor for Leaded ? Message-ID: Hi folks, After downloading some of the circuits for CO meters from the web site I was planning to make one for my mini. However I saw a note (in the faq?) that said that all CO sensors are for unleaded fuel only :( However you can buy exhaust gas analysers which work on leaded (for biggish bucks) so there must be some around. Any ideas ? Are there any UK available cars with such a thing (adverse to spending money :) ) Cheers Bryan<------------------------------------------------------------------^ | B.P. Rozier | Alleged Software Engineer | bprozier at bnr.co.uk | | voice/vmail | Bell Northern Research | CBR1000F-J VROOOOM:) | | 01279 403746 | Harlow, Essex, England | OGRI. DoD #0xFOAD | v------------------------------------------------------------------> From MSargent at gallium.com Fri Mar 8 14:56:51 1996 From: MSargent at gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:56:51 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: > rated for 10,000,000 revolutions If traveling at 50 MPH, turning 2,000 RPM, that encoder will expire after 4,150 miles. You'll be changing encoders more often than most people change their oil. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From kking at HiWAAY.net Fri Mar 8 16:18:07 1996 From: kking at HiWAAY.net (Kenneth C. King) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:18:07 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, dn wrote: > better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like > a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. greetings: help me with the math... 10M revolutions at highway speed (2500 rpm) will be used up in 4000 min. (4000m * 2500r/m = 10Mrev) that's about 66 hour, or about 5 days (straight), which at 60 mph is about 4000 miles. did i do this correctly? if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! later, kc -- "ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 "he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc From MSargent at gallium.com Fri Mar 8 17:42:15 1996 From: MSargent at gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:42:15 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: > if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! It's truely awesome. I have Toyoto truck with 235,000 Km on it. If we assume an average speed of 100 KPH, thats 2,350 hours, or 141,000 minutes. If we assume 2,500 RPM then that is 352,500,000 revolutions. In all of that abuse, the only thing that has been changed in the engine is the head gasket. I'm not trying to start a "mines better than yours" thread here. I am trying to show that a DIY EFI project must be very reliable, or it will be a constant problem in a daily driver. (And even worse problems in a boat or a plane.) Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From colec at pr.erau.edu Fri Mar 8 19:25:10 1996 From: colec at pr.erau.edu (Corey Cole) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 19:25:10 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Kenneth C. King wrote: > On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, dn wrote: > > better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like > > a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. > greetings: > help me with the math... 10M revolutions at highway speed (2500 rpm) will > be used up in 4000 min. (4000m * 2500r/m = 10Mrev) that's about 66 hour, or > about 5 days (straight), which at 60 mph is about 4000 miles. did i do this > correctly? if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! > > later, > kc Actually, wouldn't it be 8000 miles since the distributor runs at half engine speed? Still not a good number, but we might as well get the math right. Corey Cole colec at pr.erau.edu '65 Skylark "Knowledge is power...but cubic inches help." Go #24!!!!! I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison and I went to pick her up in the rain. But before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, she got runned over by the darned old train... David Allen Coe Steve Goodman From jwills at ISI.EDU Fri Mar 8 22:02:16 1996 From: jwills at ISI.EDU (Jerry Wills) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:02:16 GMT Subject: Encoder (now reliability and qualified parts for diy_efi) Message-ID: >>>>> "Michael" == Michael F Sargent writes: Michael> I'm not trying to start a "mines better than yours" thread here. I am trying Michael> to show that a DIY EFI project must be very reliable, or it will be a constant Michael> problem in a daily driver. (And even worse problems in a boat or a plane.) If you believe that did-it-yourself EFI and daily driver go together without needing TLC before your oil changes, I believe your dreaming. The factories go way beyond the reasonable testing to get the bugs out of production cars. We have the advantage that many parts we will use to build 'our' systems, are already factory qualified, but the Auto enviroment/specs are worse than the mil specs ,in many cases. I would be proud if the system I put together, could just meet mil spec. I have tried to turn projects (like mech T.J. FI on a lotus)into daily drivers, and found that I was always looking over my shoulder. I save my projects for my toys, not my basic transport. I want EFI on my bike, that doesn't cost what the bikes worth :^) do the aftermarket chips for EECIV-V disable the learn and recalibrate modes, or just change the basic lookup tables? and can they extend the RPM to 10,500. Jerry Wills I'll have enough POWER when I can spin the tires at the end of the straight! 89 FJ DERSLYR, DoD#500 KotF(Flag) Mark Donahue, about 917's USC/Information Sciences Institute (USC/ISI) SoCal (310) 822-1511 x 236 90's cowboys, ride iron horses, and punch Deer!!! You done violated Physics, BOY! Assume the position..... (Rider 5/92) From ajh at diamond.idbsu.edu Fri Mar 8 22:14:52 1996 From: ajh at diamond.idbsu.edu (Andrew Huang) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:14:52 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: > if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! It's truely awesome. I have Toyoto truck with 235,000 Km on it. If we assume And the dumbest thing is when we see advertisements from GM that claim "99% of the GM cars and truck sold in the last 4 years still start everyday" Even Lotus, with Lucas electronics could truthfully make that claim. -andy From fawkacs at ozemail.com.au Fri Mar 8 22:31:58 1996 From: fawkacs at ozemail.com.au (Michael Fawke) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:31:58 GMT Subject: CO sensor for Leaded ? Message-ID: At 09:15 AM 8/3/1996 -0500, Bryan wrote: >Hi folks, > >After downloading some of the circuits for CO meters >from the web site I was planning to make one for >my mini. However I saw a note (in the faq?) that >said that all CO sensors are for unleaded fuel only :( > >However you can buy exhaust gas analysers which work >on leaded (for biggish bucks) so there must be some >around. Any ideas ? Are there any UK available cars >with such a thing (adverse to spending money :) ) There are two types of sensors, the 'standard' sensor for production cars which lasts forever :) and the wide-range sensors which have a life of ~500 hours for unleaded and ~50 hours for leaded. I know that Bosch sells the wide 'Motorsport' lambda sensor for ~$350 Australian. I think there may also be a long-life sensor for leaded - try talking to Link Electromotive in New Zealand (link at lynx.com.nz), the sell their 'Lambda Link' meter ($90 NZ) and also sell the sensors (~90 for unleaded and > $200 for leaded). Michael Fawke fawkacs at ozemail.com.au From MRocque at shl.com Fri Mar 8 23:11:57 1996 From: MRocque at shl.com (ROCQUE Mike (MSMail)) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:11:57 GMT Subject: Fuel injector optimum location Message-ID: Hi, DIY'ers I'm looking for some feedback on the optimal location of the injector on the intake system. It's a high pressure (55PSI) system on a Honda VTEC 1.8 L engine. It is used strictly for road racing. I'm also in the final stages of building a mold for a carbon fibre intake and need to know where to put the injector boss. I have read contradicting reports on the location of the injectors. Is it true that an injector mounted above the velocity stack ie outside the intake system at the mouth of throttle body...also assuming it is mouted far away to not reduce flow...that this will produce maximum power. I'm not concerned with emissions or mileage......however I'm concerned about hi pressure fuel on the atmosphere side of the system. What happens when I shut the throttle quickly..and get some fuel run-on. etc..? mike...... email mrocque at shl.com From cal at Rt66.com Fri Mar 8 23:23:49 1996 From: cal at Rt66.com (Cal Smith) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:23:49 GMT Subject: EFI for MR2 Message-ID: Dear DIY netter's, I am trying to solve a couple of problems and I think I am in the right place--I need to know if my thoughts are correct however, so that I won't bomb the list with inappropriate drivel. It seems to me from the DIY_EFI website that the majority of the effort of this list is steered into creating functional EFI/ECU systems from component digital parts, etc. My needs are functional fuel, ignition, turbocharger, and tire-traction management. I don't care whether I buy or build the control systems. To me the end result is a functional, well-performing automobile; not the building of a custom ECU system. If a manufacturer can deliver what I need at a fair price, I will pay for their product. My specific needs are an EFI system that I can control either through a custom controller-unit (ala SDS) or via PC laptop (If the PC is the solution, is the software included? If not, how much extra is SW?). I need to be able to control boost levels up to 3-bar and ignition with boost & rpm-dependent advance/retard. Most importantly with respect to ignition, I need to be able to have the staggered twin-plug timing which is so critical to the low-rpm operation of a Mazda rotaty (Wankel) engine. FWIW, I would also operate the system closed-loop at part-throttle. The engine is the 3-rotor, 2-litre variant of the wankel, so it will have six spark-plugs and six (staged) fuel-injectors. I merely need the ignition to trigger the proper spark--the amplification, coil, and spark-shaping will be handled separately. As for turbo control, I want to control pneumatic wastegate actuation via a solenoid which diverts actuation air away from the wastegate at low boost levels. Ideally the ECU would control the turbo to provide constant mass-flow through the engine regardless of rpm (yeah-right...anyway that's the goal...). As for traction-control, I want to control the wastegate actuator and the fuel-injectors to lower boost and/or cut out fuel from random cylinders entirely when the ABS signal from the front and rear wheels indicates greater than 15% slip of the rear wheels. Any advice you can give is greatly appreciated. If you know of an off-the-shelf system that meets my needs, please suggest it. Likewise, if you know of mods to existing units which could make these things happen, please drop a line. I just subscribed to the list and I hope my desires are in-line with the charter of this organization. Thanks, Cal Smith cal at cal-tech.com From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Fri Mar 8 23:31:29 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (dn) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:31:29 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: Everybody has an opinion on this one: > On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Kenneth C. King wrote: > > > On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, dn wrote: > > > better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like > > > a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. > > greetings: > > help me with the math... 10M revolutions at highway speed (2500 rpm) will > > be used up in 4000 min. (4000m * 2500r/m = 10Mrev) that's about 66 hour, or > > about 5 days (straight), which at 60 mph is about 4000 miles. did i do this > > correctly? if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! > Actually, wouldn't it be 8000 miles since the distributor runs at half > engine speed? Still not a good number, but we might as well get the math > right. > > Corey Cole colec at pr.erau.edu Whoa! I see what they mean about the abundance of sharpness on this list! We were referring to installing this thing on a Briggs + Stratton one lunger!!! Kids, don't try this at home on your V8!!! I realize that this is not a useful device for a car engine, but on a B+S it would work long enough for Jim to run his mileage contest and then some... I figure at 1000 RPM it'll last 160 hours, that's damn near the useful life of a B+S anyway. I didn't think he'd want to spend more on the encoder than the engine was worth! Shit, now I'm gonna get 2756 undeserved messages telling me what a bonehead I am.... Your'e right Jim, life sucks. regards, dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Mitsu16v at aol.com Sat Mar 9 04:39:16 1996 From: Mitsu16v at aol.com (Mitsu16v at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 04:39:16 GMT Subject: Info on Code or EPROM for 93 16V Eclipse Message-ID: Anyone know where I can get a chip for a 93 16 valve Eclipse? Or possibly where I can get the source code, and possibly any other mods I can make to the stock EFI: Thanks in advance! From arthurok at ix.netcom.com Sat Mar 9 04:46:56 1996 From: arthurok at ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 04:46:56 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: that little encoder is a digital pot the sort of thing you would turn with your fingers in that sort of application it'll last for many years From matny at isy.liu.se Sat Mar 9 13:27:40 1996 From: matny at isy.liu.se (Mattias Nyberg) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 13:27:40 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency Message-ID: Measuring the real air flow is not easy. The air flow meter is sensitive to swirl turbulent flow. Also the flow in an engine is pulsating. To measure corectly, the air flow meter must have laminar, steady flow, which is never the case in an engine. To overcome the proplem the air flow meter has to be calibrated in the position where it is going to be used. For example, in our lab we have a hot film air mass flow meter, which was sent away for calibration ($150). After the calibration we mounted the MAF in our lab and it measured the air mass flow with an error of about 25%. We concluded this when we got an volumetric efficiency of 1.1 ! Mattias Nyberg From CHarris233 at aol.com Sat Mar 9 18:04:49 1996 From: CHarris233 at aol.com (CHarris233 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:04:49 GMT Subject: Fuel injector optimum location Message-ID: Mike- Placement of the fuel injector always seems to generate a lot of "discussion". Unfortunately, there isn't always an easy answer, even in similar conditions. As an example, I'd like to point out the difference in injector location on two Indy car engines. The Ford-Cosworth variety places the injector low in the port, just above the inlet valve. This should enable more precise distribution between cylinders, though at some loss in fuel evaporation due to the slightly shorter travel. The Mercedes Benz-Ilmor (my job, BTW) places the injectors high above the trumpets. This gives slightly more time for fuel vaporization, but gives slightly less control over where the fuel ends up. In the end, it alls seems to be a toss-up for WOT running. If you run into problems with fuel distribution, moving the injectors downstream tends to help. If you want to try for a *minor* decrease in fuel consumption, move the injector upstream. At low rpms, placing the injector near the inlet valve can still give good fuel vaporization by timing the fuel delivery to strike the valve when closed. At WOT, pulse width and duty cycle conspire to reduce the usefuleness of worrying about when the injector opens. I wish there was a pre-packaged answer to your question. It would make life easier for a lot of us. As all the above tends to lead toward the dreaded cut-and-try method of development, could you consider molding you intake system with two injector locations? The unused locations could be plugged. This would give you the opportunity to try different locations without starting over. Good luck, and let us know how it goes. Charlie Harris From lndshrk at xmission.com Sat Mar 9 18:18:25 1996 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 18:18:25 GMT Subject: Info on Code or EPROM for 93 16V Eclipse Message-ID: At 23:40 3/8/96 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone know where I can get a chip for a 93 16 valve Eclipse? Or possibly >where I can get the source code, and possibly any other mods I can make to >the stock EFI: Thanks in advance! Well, how about starting by reading the STOCK EPROM to a file, and telling me what the processor is (or looks like) and the xtal speed ... You gotta start somewhere :) Jim C. From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Sat Mar 9 19:33:44 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (dn) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 19:33:44 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: Andrew Dalgleish wrote: > Photo reduction isn't that expensive. I've done it by taking a shot with > a 120 camera and using the negative. Most wedding photographers could do > it for you, probably for a few beers. You can't just use ordinary film for this type of work. It's way too grainy and imprecise for precision photo reduction. The film must be an ultra slow very high contrast film, used to be used a lot for printed circuit board artwork and photolithography. Also, to get precise reduction of the artwork, a very expensive and accurate bellows type camera with precision dolly is necessary. You need exactly X:1 reduction if the finished product is going to have the exact line widths and precise, sharp edges you need for an encoder. Just not the type of stuff Weddings'R'Us is going to have lying around. > I've also seen a sticky metalic (so it doesn't stretch) tape with > light/dark bands on it. You just wrap this around a shaft a few times > until the stripes line up. This would be ok for low res (a few pulses per revolution), but it would be nearly impossible to get it synched up exactly with the camshaft position, which you'd need for an engine controller. > That's less than 28 hours at 6000 rpm. Are you sure there isn't another > 1000 in there? When was the last time you saw a Briggs + Stratton doing 6000 RPM? > Sounds a *lot* better than using separate led/phototransistor. Still doesn't beat someone else doing all the hard stuff, + you just go down to your local supplier and pick one up. The pickup is the easy part, the optical disk is the black art... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From eric0019 at gold.tc.umn.edu Sat Mar 9 23:28:46 1996 From: eric0019 at gold.tc.umn.edu (Ryan A Erickson) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 23:28:46 GMT Subject: Copy of: CD Ignition SMPS? Message-ID: On 21 Feb 1996, George J. Murdoch wrote: > From: George J. Murdoch, 100517,2176 > TO: DIY_EFI, INTERNET:coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > DATE: 22/02/96 12:45 > > RE: Copy of: CD Ignition SMPS? > > I am interested in building CD ignition for driving 1 H.T. coil per cylinder > using small coils similar to that used on the SAAB 9000 DI 16V engine > I would be interested to know if anyone has any info on building a switch mode > P.S. for the above and any comments on CD ignition in general . > > Thanks > > George. > > > > Go to your local Saab dealer and ask for the Saab Trionic ignition management manual. I bought it about 2 years ago for some research I did for Honeywell on OBDII. It was $50 US at that time. I don't remember the exact name of the manual so you'll need a helpful tech person. It is written for Saab technicians. later, Ryan From MTaylorfi at aol.com Sun Mar 10 02:12:34 1996 From: MTaylorfi at aol.com (MTaylorfi at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 02:12:34 GMT Subject: CO sensor for Leaded ? Message-ID: Measure your exhaust gas temp... See ya, Mike From arthurok at ix.netcom.com Sun Mar 10 06:30:37 1996 From: arthurok at ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 06:30:37 GMT Subject: CO sensor for Leaded ? Message-ID: You wrote: > >Measure your exhaust gas temp... > >See ya, > >Mike > i dont think it's an equilivent measurement; . egt s are common on light aircraft for setting mixture but they dont have to pass emmission tests"yet" ie peak egt- 25 to 50 deg rich for power lean to peak for economy thats what my instructor told me and never lean below 3000 ft or at maximum power only at cruise. From wrl at access.digex.net Sun Mar 10 13:11:34 1996 From: wrl at access.digex.net (Bill Lewis) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:11:34 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: >> That's less than 28 hours at 6000 rpm. Are you sure there isn't >> another 1000 in there? > When was the last time you saw a Briggs + Stratton doing 6000 RPM? Modified Briggs and Stratton engines used for go-kart racing spin well over 5000. Bill From zurlo at execpc.com Sun Mar 10 14:52:05 1996 From: zurlo at execpc.com (Jim Zurlo) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:52:05 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency equations Message-ID: As mentioned by the guy from Ford, if you really want to accurately calculate volumetric efficiency then you must use a sophisticated program such as Ford's MANDY (can you send me a copy of that? :-)). However the book by Taylor & Taylor from MIT Press does have some equations that indicate how various changes effect volumetric efficiency. An example is the equation that shows how volumetric efficiency is affected by the ratio of Intake to Exhaust manifold pressure. For some applications that level of sophistication is sufficient. Jim Zurlo zurlo at execpc.com From JC_ZHOLIDAY at SEOVEC.OHIO.GOV Sun Mar 10 15:18:54 1996 From: JC_ZHOLIDAY at SEOVEC.OHIO.GOV (JC_ZHOLIDAY at SEOVEC.OHIO.GOV) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:18:54 GMT Subject: UEGO sensor Message-ID: I'm currently doing some research for a port fuel injection system that I want to build. I'm wanting it to be able to measure the true a/f ratio or at least as close as possible to it. What I'm needing is some information on interfacing with UEGO sensors. Also, I've seen a few posting and articles refering to SAE papers or journals, how can I get a hold of these? Ezekiel Holliday JC_ZHOLIDAY at SEOVEC.OHIO.GOV From grantb at nait.ab.ca Sun Mar 10 16:30:07 1996 From: grantb at nait.ab.ca (Grant Beattie) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 16:30:07 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Mar 1996, dn wrote: > When was the last time you saw a Briggs + Stratton doing 6000 RPM? Last race! My B&S does over 6000 every lap (a go-kart race). GB From gchan at compserv.senecac.on.ca Sun Mar 10 17:05:09 1996 From: gchan at compserv.senecac.on.ca (Gregory Chan) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 17:05:09 GMT Subject: Toyota ECU mods Message-ID: Hi all, I'm new on this list and am in search of any information which may give me an insight to how I can modify the ECU on an 85 Corolla GTS. I have already performed most of the external mods such as airflow meter, EGR valve, temp sensor pot and am currently looking into getting larger injectors. The stock Toyota ECU does not have numbers which I can understand (i.e. by checking in an ECG replacement guide) or a removable EPROM. Does anyone know of any mods to this ECU ( I have a spare one) or can put me on to a source of information? Thanks in advance. gchan at compserv.senecac.on.ca From lndshrk at xmission.com Sun Mar 10 17:07:56 1996 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 17:07:56 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency equations Message-ID: At 08:51 3/10/96 -0600, you wrote: >As mentioned by the guy from Ford, if you really want to accurately calculate >volumetric efficiency then you must use a sophisticated program such as Ford's >MANDY (can you send me a copy of that? :-)). Uhh .. what he said ;) >However the book by Taylor & >Taylor from MIT Press does have some equations that indicate how various >changes effect volumetric efficiency. An example is the equation that shows >how volumetric efficiency is affected by the ratio of Intake to Exhaust >manifold pressure. For some applications that level of sophistication is >sufficient. Could you give me a cite for said book, and also whoudl you be kind enough to summarize (or just dump) that formula ... I'm VERY curious as to the effect of Exhaust backpressure on Ve ... Jim (about to supercharge an M3) Conforti From jsturs at bart.nl Sun Mar 10 22:54:29 1996 From: jsturs at bart.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:54:29 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting? Message-ID: Could somebody please explain the relationship between EGT and mixture in a practical sense for tuning purposes, i.e. how would you actually go about setting fuel curves based on EGT readings? Later, Jim Sturcbecher jsturs at bart.nl From dhe1 at cornell.edu Mon Mar 11 00:36:59 1996 From: dhe1 at cornell.edu (Dan Elsberg) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 00:36:59 GMT Subject: Al u-bends Message-ID: We got tired of the high prices and low availability of Aluminum u-bends so we made a mandril bender. It was a _lot_ of work. (about a week of machining and then another couple of days playing around with the technique.) Anyway if anyone needs 1-3/8"x0.058 we may be able to work something out that would be a lot cheaper than the estimates we got from various other sources (one wanted $275 to bend 6 semi-circles (180 degrees) including the labor and material). E-mail me directly if you want to talk about it. If anyone wants a description of the tool we made e-mail me about that too. --dan -- Dan Elsberg (607) 272-1574 Cornell University, Engineering Physics dhe1 at cornell.edu From u933234 at student.canberra.edu.au Mon Mar 11 02:56:08 1996 From: u933234 at student.canberra.edu.au (Bruno!) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 02:56:08 GMT Subject: EFI without a lookup table Message-ID: Hi everyone, Is it possible to have an efi computer control the engine entirely in closed loop? I'd like to design a ecu which does not rely on having to be dyno-tuned, or other ways where the engine has to run at different loads, speeds, etc. The rationale behind this is I want to be able to design the computer, plug it in, and control the engine from day one. I understand that there are more things to consider, what they are exactly are slowly coming to me. For a start, I was thinking of using a MAP, TPS, and a crank angle sensor (for RPM) and intake air temperature for airflow metering, and an O2 sensor for mixture. When using a hall effect sensor, what is the material that the metal vane that passes through the gap made of? Iron or aluminium? Any thoughts or suggestions would be most welcome. Thanks. Bruno. ( u933234 at student.canberra.edu.au ) "If you've gotta go, go with a smile" From ehernan3 at ford.com Mon Mar 11 11:39:50 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:39:50 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency Message-ID: "We concluded this when we got an volumetric efficiency of 1.1 !" What makes you think having a volumetric efficiency of 1.1 makes your meter incorrect? It is entirely possible to get volumetric efficiencies greater than one. What engine? What rpm? What was it designed to do? From ehernan3 at ford.com Mon Mar 11 11:45:16 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:45:16 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency equations Message-ID: "...must use a sophisticated program such as Ford's MANDY (can you send me a copy of that? :-))...." Ah, no :( but I was impressed with someone's listing of inputs into the Engine Analyzer and that's only $80. MANDY would cost you some number with lots of zeros behind it plus a workstation to run it on. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From ehernan3 at ford.com Mon Mar 11 11:55:08 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:55:08 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting? Message-ID: ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From owner-diy_efi-outgoing at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Sun Mar 10 18:32 EST 1996 X-Sender: jsturs at bart.nl > Could somebody please explain the relationship between EGT and mixture in a practical sense for tuning purposes, i.e. how would you actually go about setting fuel curves based on EGT readings? > A very conservative method would be to tune A/F for the same EGT at WOT across the rpm range. A more aggressive approach would be to tune A/F for a shallow but constant rising slope vs rpm. There are lots of ideas as to a maximum EGT which you shouldn't exceed. Some like to use about 1800 F on dyno, but that's pretty short term. I love it when the exhaust glows red! Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From matthew at viewlogic.com Mon Mar 11 14:21:02 1996 From: matthew at viewlogic.com (Matthew Wallis) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:21:02 GMT Subject: Al u-bends Message-ID: > X-Sender: dhe1 at postoffice5.mail.cornell.edu > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 19:38:00 -0700 > From: dhe1 at cornell.edu (Dan Elsberg) > Sender: owner-diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Content-Length: 759 > > We got tired of the high prices and low availability of Aluminum u-bends so > we made a mandril bender. It was a _lot_ of work. (about a week of > machining and then another couple of days playing around with the > technique.) Anyway if anyone needs 1-3/8"x0.058 we may be able to work > something out that would be a lot cheaper than the estimates we got from > various other sources (one wanted $275 to bend 6 semi-circles (180 degrees) > including the labor and material). E-mail me directly if you want to talk > about it. > > If anyone wants a description of the tool we made e-mail me about that too. I would like to get a description of the tool. Any plans available? I need to do some bending of some 0.75", 0.035" Wall 5052 Al tubing. - Matthew > > --dan > > -- > Dan Elsberg (607) 272-1574 > Cornell University, Engineering Physics dhe1 at cornell.edu From pecampbe at mtu.edu Mon Mar 11 15:43:22 1996 From: pecampbe at mtu.edu (Paul E. Campbell) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:43:22 GMT Subject: EFI without a lookup table Message-ID: Bruno writes: > Is it possible to have an efi computer control the engine entirely in > closed loop? I'd like to design a ecu which does not rely on having to be > dyno-tuned, or other ways where the engine has to run at different loads, > speeds, etc. Yes. It's called an "adaptive algorithm" but it requires more CPU power than simple table lookups. BUT you will have to at least temporarily run open loop during warmup until your O2 sensor is functioning (unless you want to buy a sensor with a 4 digit price tag). > The rationale behind this is I want to be able to design the computer, > plug it in, and control the engine from day one. I understand that there > are more things to consider, what they are exactly are slowly coming to me. What you might also consider is if you came up with a generic map that would at least get the vehicle started, it could then do map updates and slowly tune itself. This is along the lines I've been thinking of. > When using a hall effect sensor, what is the material that the metal vane > that passes through the gap made of? Iron or aluminium? Has to be ferrous. So aluminum is out. From MSargent at gallium.com Mon Mar 11 16:37:38 1996 From: MSargent at gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:37:38 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting? Message-ID: > I love it when the exhaust glows red! Are Titanium valves geting cheaper? :-) +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From fparker at umich.edu Mon Mar 11 16:51:38 1996 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank Parker) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:51:38 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting? Message-ID: > > A very conservative method would be to tune A/F for the same EGT at > WOT across the rpm range. A more aggressive approach would be to tune > A/F for a shallow but constant rising slope vs rpm. There are lots of > ideas as to a maximum EGT which you shouldn't exceed. Some like to > use about 1800 F on dyno, but that's pretty short term. I love it when > the exhaust glows red! > > Ed Hernandez > Ford Motor Company > ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com > I have had a hard time getting a good relationship between absolute exhaust temp and a/f ratio and temp limits. I have taken data on my datalogger @ 100 times/sec monitoring fuel pressure, turbo boost, o2 sensor voltage and egt. The type k t/c was located about 3" from head exhaust outlet flange. I saw about 1650 deg F max at wot, with about 10sec @ max 8psi boost. I could adjust nonlinear fuel press regulator to add more fuel and see 50 deg temp drop. O2 sensor voltage went from about .82 to about .84, but std o2 sensors are very nonlinear here. Does anyone have comments on how egt temps change with thermocouple placement and what max limits may be????. The turbo mfr suggests 1750 max inlet temp. As a secondary question, are there any sources from the wide range o2 sensors other than the overpriced unit from Horriba ($2500-actually made by NGK)??? From atsakiri at ford.com Mon Mar 11 16:58:14 1996 From: atsakiri at ford.com (atsakiri at ford.com) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:58:14 GMT Subject: EFI without a lookup table Message-ID: > Is it possible to have an efi computer control the engine entirely in > closed loop? I'd like to design a ecu which does not rely on having to be > dyno-tuned, or other ways where the engine has to run at different loads, > speeds, etc. That would depend on what the variable(s) you're trying to control are. Current table-based routines are attempts at achieving desired torque, power, emissions, and fuel consumption, plus many more less quantifiable parameters like drivability, noise, shift quality, etc. There is also, at least for mass-produced vehicles, to minimize cost. That affects sensors, actuators, and computing power. (Where is that darn low-cost in-line torque sensor anyway? :) ) Add to this that engines behave very nonlinearly (just look at emissions versus fuel/air ratio) and you have a very challenging problem. > The rationale behind this is I want to be able to design the computer, > plug it in, and control the engine from day one. Wow. If you ever get to this point with a cost-effective design, companies will line up to buy it. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From matny at isy.liu.se Mon Mar 11 16:58:16 1996 From: matny at isy.liu.se (Mattias Nyberg) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:58:16 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency Message-ID: > > "We concluded this when we got an volumetric efficiency of 1.1 !" > > What makes you think having a volumetric efficiency of 1.1 makes your > meter incorrect? It is entirely possible to get volumetric efficiencies > greater than one. What engine? What rpm? What was it designed to do? The engine is a SAAB 2.3L standard production engine (fuel injection, no turbo, no EGR). The volumetric efficiencies close to 1.1 was obtained around 4000 rpm. Normally the vol. eff. should be 0.85 (see any engine book) which makes an error of (1.1-.85)/.85=29%. How can vol. eff. be greater than 1? Mattias Nyberg From atsakiri at ford.com Mon Mar 11 17:32:41 1996 From: atsakiri at ford.com (atsakiri at ford.com) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:32:41 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency Message-ID: > How can vol. eff. be greater than 1? A non-boosted engine can still have a volumetric efficiency greater than one. A highly tuned induction system can produce manifold pressure pulsations (at some engine speeds) which are higher than ambient pressure and which occur when the intake valve is open. Since volumetric efficiency is usually calculated using ambient pressure as the reference, the result ends up being greater than one. It's possible, but I don't think common. Anthony Tsakiris --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. From bowling at cebaf.gov Mon Mar 11 18:30:16 1996 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:30:16 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency Message-ID: ~ How can vol. eff. be greater than 1? ~ ~ Mattias Nyberg ~ Quoting from the superflow flow bench manual: "Inertial Supercharging Effect: When the intake valve starts to close, the fast moving air column tries to keep ramming itself into the cylinder. If the inlet valve is closed at just the right instant, the extra charge will be trapped in the cylinder (called inertial supercharging). Volumetric efficiencies up to 130 percent can be obtained......." They then go on to define the inertia-supercharge index Z, which is an empirical value which is a measure of the strength of the inertia supercharge. To compute this: 1) Find Cv = (valve flow (total) for one cylinder filling event at given test pressure) --------------------------------------------------- (Maximum flow possible at given test pressure) Cv is intake system flow rating (normalized) 2) Find average inlet valve area: A = Cv * (valve area in sq. inches) 3) Compute Z: Z=((RPM/126000)) * sqrt((CID * Inlet Length)/(A)) Z will usually be between 0.9 and 1.2 - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From orlin-s at rclsgi Mon Mar 11 19:29:52 1996 From: orlin-s at rclsgi (orlin steven jared) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:29:52 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency equations Message-ID: > >However the book by Taylor & > >Taylor from MIT Press does have some equations that indicate how various > >changes effect volumetric efficiency. An example is the equation that shows > >how volumetric efficiency is affected by the ratio of Intake to Exhaust > >manifold pressure. For some applications that level of sophistication is > >sufficient. > > Could you give me a cite for said book, and also whoudl you be kind enough > to summarize (or just dump) that formula ... I'm VERY curious as to the > effect of Exhaust backpressure on Ve ... > The book is called _The internal combustion engine in theory and practice_ It's by Charles Fayette Taylor, and the one you want for these formulas is Volume 1. There are several formulas for volumetric efficiency he gives. The one that includes the pressure ratio is the following: Ev = 0.285 + (r - Pe/Pi)/(1.4*(r - 1)) Don't expect super accurate answers from this formula, because he 'derived' it from experimental results for engines with small valve overlap and pressure ratios greater than 0.5 I would suggest reading the book. And if your engine is similar to what he tested, then your results will be better. He also includes graphs of Ev and every possible engine parameter. Volumetric efficiency defined, for an ideal fuel-air cycle is: Ev = Mi/(V1 - V2)pi where: Mi is the mass of fresh mixture supplied and pi is the density of this mixture at the pressure and temp. V1-V2 is the total displacement of the engine. Evolved into formulas you can use directly for engines: Ev = 2*mass flow rate of fresh mixture / (rpm * total displacement * inlet dens) You can also express this formula on the basis of dry air, and make it even more user friendly: Ev = 4*mass fl rate of dry air/(dens air * total piston area * mean piston spd) Where mean piston speed = 2 * stroke * rpm This is easier to use because you can calculate the density of dry air with good accuracy for your given temp/press. And the only thing you need is the mass flow rate of the dry air. To the guy who doesn't understand how you can get an Ev over 1, consider a forced induction situation, or a tuned supercharge effect from the intake design. Also consider that the strict definition of Ev only accounts for the mass of the mixture in the displacement volume -NOT including the combution chamber volume. Even so, unless you have an extremely large combustion chamber, or a forced induction, you should not rule out numerical inaccuracy in your calculations. But for the record books, you can have volumetric efficiencies over 1. Steve From orlin-s at rclsgi Mon Mar 11 19:33:18 1996 From: orlin-s at rclsgi (orlin steven jared) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:33:18 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting? Message-ID: > I have had a hard time getting a good relationship between absolute exhaust > temp and a/f ratio and temp limits. I have taken data on my datalogger @ > 100 times/sec monitoring fuel pressure, turbo boost, o2 sensor voltage > and egt. The type k t/c was located about 3" from head exhaust outlet > flange. I saw about 1650 deg F max at wot, with about 10sec @ max 8psi > boost. I could adjust nonlinear fuel press regulator to add more fuel and > see 50 deg temp drop. O2 sensor voltage went from about .82 to about .84, > but std o2 sensors are very nonlinear here. > Does anyone have comments on how egt temps change with thermocouple > placement and what max limits may be????. The turbo mfr suggests 1750 max > inlet temp. In my opinion, EGT's aren't really very useful in tuning AFR. You will spend more time and money doing this, and have more failures (most likely) than if you just plunked down the initial investment in the Horiba UEGO unit. The main advantage of EGT's is checking fuel distribution. > As a secondary question, are there any sources from the wide range o2 > sensors other than the overpriced unit from Horriba ($2500-actually made > by NGK)??? You may want to look into Bosch. Last I heard they were coming out with some type of a comparable unit, with UEGO sensors for $250 ea., instead of the $900 Horiba sensors. STeve From orlin-s at rclsgi Mon Mar 11 23:07:30 1996 From: orlin-s at rclsgi (orlin steven jared) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:07:30 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency Message-ID: > "Inertial Supercharging Effect: > > When the intake valve starts to close, the fast moving air column > tries to keep ramming itself into the cylinder. If the inlet > valve is closed at just the right instant, the extra charge will be trapped > in the cylinder (called inertial supercharging). Volumetric efficiencies > up to 130 percent can be obtained......." I think this is mentioned in the ASME paper "design of a tuned intake", probably where superflow got it from ;-) > They then go on to define the inertia-supercharge index Z, which > is an empirical value which is a measure of the strength of the > inertia supercharge. To compute this: > 3) Compute Z: > > Z=((RPM/126000)) * sqrt((CID * Inlet Length)/(A)) > > Z will usually be between 0.9 and 1.2 > This looks like a 'makeshift' Inlet Mach Index formula. (I could be wrong). The Inlet mach index is the ratio of the typical inlet velocity to the inlet sonic velocity. Z = ((b/D)^2 )* s /(Ci*a) pg 173 of Taylor's book. Where b = cylinder bore D = inlet valve diameter s = mean piston speed = 2 X rpm X stroke Ci = mean inlet flow coefficient a = local velocity of sound a can be calculated by multiplying a constant by the square root of the temperature (absolute). Ci is the hanger here. It correlates to the ratio of the lift/inlet valve diameter. But my guess is that for whatever you need to come up with a mach index for, an approximation is good enough ;) There are graphs for Ci in the book too. The reason why I have doubts that maybe this isn't the same "Z" factor as Bruce posted is because you don't want a value of over .6 for the inlet mach index. volumetric efficiency starts to drop off fast after that. I didn't hack through the math/units to compare the two, but they look similar. Steve From fawkacs at ozemail.com.au Mon Mar 11 23:19:33 1996 From: fawkacs at ozemail.com.au (Michael Fawke) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:19:33 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting? Message-ID: At 11:52 AM 11/3/1996 -0500, you wrote: >As a secondary question, are there any sources from the wide range o2 >sensors other than the overpriced unit from Horriba ($2500-actually made >by NGK)??? > Bosch makes a 'motorsport' wide range lambda probe. About $350 Australian. But they only have a life of about 500 hours for unleaded and 50 hours for leaded. Michael Fawke fawkacs at ozemail.com.au From andrewd at axonet.com.au Tue Mar 12 01:19:15 1996 From: andrewd at axonet.com.au (Andrew Dalgleish) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 01:19:15 GMT Subject: EFI without a lookup table Message-ID: On Monday, 11 March 1996 11:57, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: > > > Is it possible to have an efi computer control the engine entirely in > > closed loop? I'd like to design a ecu which does not rely on having to be > > dyno-tuned, or other ways where the engine has to run at different loads, > > speeds, etc. > > That would depend on what the variable(s) you're trying to control are. > Current table-based routines are attempts at achieving desired torque, > power, emissions, and fuel consumption, plus many more less quantifiable > parameters like drivability, noise, shift quality, etc. > > There is also, at least for mass-produced vehicles, to minimize cost. > That affects sensors, actuators, and computing power. (Where is that > darn low-cost in-line torque sensor anyway? :) ) How about a strain gauge on the tail-shaft? Calibrating it might be a bear... > > Add to this that engines behave very nonlinearly (just look at emissions > versus fuel/air ratio) and you have a very challenging problem. > > > > The rationale behind this is I want to be able to design the computer, > > plug it in, and control the engine from day one. > > Wow. If you ever get to this point with a cost-effective design, > companies will line up to buy it. > > > > > Anthony Tsakiris > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. > Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Senior Software Engineer Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 From gmd at tecinfo.com Tue Mar 12 01:27:53 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 01:27:53 GMT Subject: DIY FI facts Message-ID: At 02:01 PM 3/8/96 -0800, Jerry Wills wrote: >If you believe that did-it-yourself EFI and daily driver go together without needing >TLC before your oil changes, I believe your dreaming. The factories go way beyond the >reasonable testing to get the bugs out of production cars. We have the advantage that >many parts we will use to build 'our' systems, are already factory qualified, but the >Auto enviroment/specs are worse than the mil specs ,in many cases. I would be proud >if the system I put together, could just meet mil spec. > >I have tried to turn projects (like mech T.J. FI on a lotus)into daily drivers, and >found that I was always looking over my shoulder. > Jerry Wills ============================================================================ ========== I almost agree with you 100% on this one Jerry. But... I've been driving an up-graded '58 Chevy truck for ten years. I depend on it for everyday transportation (170 +miles/week) and she seldom lets me down (can't say that about some of the women in my life :). The only thing that's original is a few body parts. The main thing that I've learned about modifying auto machinery (FI, brakes, body, chassis, or what ever), is to know at what level to start D_I_Y_ing at. Have you ever herd of a "do it your self" person try to cast their own engine block or smelt their own alloys? My philosophy is, "when in question, see what the OEM uses and adapt it to your application". In most cases, not all, the OEM knows best. They've got better toys and have been playing with them much longer than most of us have. Occasionally, we (D_Y_I_ers) can slip up on something original. I don't know about you guys, but I do it strictly for fun. Keep the D_I_Y mentality alive! BTW, this is comming from a guy who is building a car... from scratch :-() GMD From mymove at serv01.net-link.net Tue Mar 12 01:40:58 1996 From: mymove at serv01.net-link.net (William Sarkozy) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 01:40:58 GMT Subject: Al u-bends Message-ID: At 07:38 PM 3/10/96 -0700, you wrote: >We got tired of the high prices and low availability of Aluminum u-bends so >we made a mandril bender. It was a _lot_ of work. (about a week of >machining and then another couple of days playing around with the >technique.) Anyway if anyone needs 1-3/8"x0.058 we may be able to work >something out that would be a lot cheaper than the estimates we got from >various other sources (one wanted $275 to bend 6 semi-circles (180 degrees) >including the labor and material). E-mail me directly if you want to talk >about it. > >If anyone wants a description of the tool we made e-mail me about that too. > >--dan > >-- >Dan Elsberg (607) 272-1574 >Cornell University, Engineering Physics dhe1 at cornell.edu > > > I'm very interested. Is the 1-3/8" diameter the only size you do? Bill From jshapiro at CS.Cornell.EDU Tue Mar 12 03:33:29 1996 From: jshapiro at CS.Cornell.EDU (Jody Shapiro) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 03:33:29 GMT Subject: EFI without a lookup table Message-ID: I'm cross-posting this to both the DIY_EFI list and the F-Body list because this topic has come up and I haven't seen anyone mention the item belower which looks interesting. >---------- >From: Andrew Dalgleish[SMTP:andrewd at axonet.com.au] >Sent: Monday, March 11, 1996 8:19 PM >To: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; jshapiro at cs.cornell.edu >Subject: RE: EFI without a lookup table > > >On Monday, 11 March 1996 11:57, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: >> There is also, at least for mass-produced vehicles, to minimize cost. >> That affects sensors, actuators, and computing power. (Where is that >> darn low-cost in-line torque sensor anyway? :) ) >> Anthony Tsakiris > >How about a strain gauge on the tail-shaft? >Calibrating it might be a bear... > >Andrew Dalgleish On page 54 of the Feb 96 issue of Chevy High Performance under the article "50 Hot New Parts" which talks about items from the SEMA show (Specialty Equipment Manufacturers Assocation): "Ever wondered what your engine's horsepower is at operating conditions? DYNOmite ((603)329-5645) has an onboard dyno that allows monitoring and recording of the horsepower at the driveshaft while the car is on the road. The key is an output-shaft-mounted strain gauge." -Jody --- http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Info/People/jshapiro/jshapiro.htm begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(CL#`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`) "```"````# ````,``# $````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F4!C:7-C;RYC;VT````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````$0`` M`&8M8F]D>4!C:7-C;RYC;VT``````P`5# (````#`/X/!@```!X``3 !```` M#@```"=&+4)O9'D at 3&ES="<````"`0LP`0```!8```!33510.D8M0D]$64!# M25-#3RY#3TT````#```Y``````L`0#H``````@'V#P$````$````````!7&# M`0B !P`8````25!-+DUI8W)OV 1SYO91$535 `````>`!X,`0`` M``4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````& ```&IS:&%P:7)O0&-S+F-O``@0`0```&4```!)34-23U-3+5!/4U1) M3D=42$E35$]"3U1(5$A%1$E9149)3$E35$%.1%1(148M0D]$64Q)4U1"14-! 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MD6=H'Q)*@1\P_0K +H"@>Z]\OW3?@.^!__^##3$>3I\:'(@?&AM4FHHPJ7I1 M-317$&8>)&4P\*\Z<00!;/&-(4,<\'8>P/Y(?\$ZX 207;$#@5Z0(. _'@`D M(1SB"L ;P%\1(")<-3!XX05 !\)0D*%S]B(D10&0;"3A>30C@@0 at PP-2'--3 M14U!(?!*0+$'X"A3< 60!S%T'L >16S@!2 BPCFA;G5F?V4B%A 1H(K/&M"$ M7XO)0;T$$&\?4"+RF&\:T"F:O^>+V%CFB at 4B12&@)#$Y0;\E01X0)%!=(2)P M"' @05'];'$G!"!*0!&A9K-<@P5 ?R 0!)!_) 6@'@`C@",!<^%M\4193D]? MH!/09R $*#890"DS,CDM\#4V-#5N,"!B`Y$"(.<&X L10$!Y;AQP9])T,D0I#Q'.(? M4*%#,R,5`V!A9&$'FZ+B(E MW_.*KQJR+4H>H; %*XA_X.&M@#HO+W>SP#-00SOH+TEN`A OCT @$#' UB]" MEK6G+G_@;86O3CL%%3$`N2 ```,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ```#T``0````4```!213H@`````,<9 ` end From mymove at serv01.net-link.net Tue Mar 12 04:53:46 1996 From: mymove at serv01.net-link.net (William Sarkozy) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 04:53:46 GMT Subject: Help on 2.3 litre turbo motor Message-ID: Hello group, My Thunderbird turbo-coupe starts at 35 psi fuel pressure and then jumps abruptly to about 85-90 psi after about 5 seconds of running. I presume this is abnormal since the manual says 30-45 psi at idle. Has anyone witnessed a similar problem or have any suggestions? I presume its a problem with the pressure regulator mounted on the fuel rail, but could it be (I don't know how) a clogged return line to the tank? Any suggestions or insights would be greatly appreciated. Thanks...... Bill From MTaylorfi at aol.com Tue Mar 12 05:54:11 1996 From: MTaylorfi at aol.com (MTaylorfi at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 05:54:11 GMT Subject: Long returns!!! Message-ID: To those people that cut and paste two paragraphs from a previous listing, just to add one or two sentences, please quit. Thanks in advance!! From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Tue Mar 12 06:17:07 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (Darrell Norquay) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:17:07 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: Ed Hernandez wrote: > A very conservative method would be to tune A/F for the same EGT at > WOT across the rpm range. A more aggressive approach would be to tune > A/F for a shallow but constant rising slope vs rpm. There are lots of > ideas as to a maximum EGT which you shouldn't exceed. Some like to > use about 1800 F on dyno, but that's pretty short term. I love it when > the exhaust glows red! Does the EGT sensor have to be close to the head? The reason I ask is that I have headers, and the only practical place to mount EGT's would be in the collectors. I assume that the temperatures would be somewhat reduced, but still proportional(?) How does the mixture affect EGT? Do lean mixtures produce lower or higher temps than rich ones? Can you determine if you are at stoich with this method (with any accuracy)? Is there a linear relationship between EGT and AFR or is it a complex function? Is this a practical/effective/reliable way to adjust mixture? Is it only useful at WOT, or does it maintain some validity at all throttle settings? What other factors affect EGT? regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From THOMAS5 at kihmaskin.kih.no Tue Mar 12 07:24:41 1996 From: THOMAS5 at kihmaskin.kih.no (Th.M.Boehm) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:24:41 GMT Subject: Suzuki Swift GTi Twincam 1.3 (87) Message-ID: I'm not into engine modification at all ,and I know this mail-list is a lot more hitech than I am. When that's said, I was just wondering if anybody has got some tips of parts (I've read about chiptuning!) I can easily modify or replace (Also the shops who supply them (I live in Europe)). If it demands special knowledge please tell me, or I'll probably ruin my engine. Thomas. From mrb at mpx.com.au Tue Mar 12 07:43:14 1996 From: mrb at mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:43:14 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency Message-ID: At 05:58 PM 11/03/96 +0100, you wrote: > >How can vol. eff. be greater than 1? > >Mattias Nyberg > Mattias, most good racing engines would typically see 120% over a limited RPM range. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. From ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com Tue Mar 12 13:19:51 1996 From: ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com (ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:19:51 GMT Subject: No Subject Message-ID: Darrell Norquay wrote: > How does the mixture affect EGT? Do lean mixtures produce lower or higher > temps than rich ones? > Can you determine if you are at stoich with this method (with any accuracy)? > Is there a linear relationship between EGT and AFR or is it a complex > function? > Is this a practical/effective/reliable way to adjust mixture? Is it only > useful at WOT, or does it maintain some validity at all throttle settings? The function beteen A/F mixture and EGT is non-linear (somewhat parabolic) with a peak that is NOT coincident with stoich. As you richen the mixture, the EGT goes down (which is why air cooled engines, particularly aircraft engines) are run very rich, As you lean past the peak, the EGT drops slightly (along with power) Obviously, there are other factors in play, and since the EGT also varies with power level using it as a substitute for a lambda sensor is a challenge in non-linear systems design. Check out _Combustion Engine Processes_ by L. Licty, published by McGraw-Hill. It's an older academic text on the subject, but has a plot on this function. Cliff Ducharme / A wing an a prayer... _______[*]_______ b / d From rac at ingenioeren.dk Tue Mar 12 13:28:58 1996 From: rac at ingenioeren.dk (Rolf Ask Clausen) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:28:58 GMT Subject: Simple carb-based systems, who? Message-ID: Hi, I've been lurking some time, and have a few really low-tech questions: I'm toying with my old Volvo Amazon (121, B20 engine) and has fitted an oxygen sensor in order to look a bit on the mixture and possibly use this data to adjust or change the carburettor setup. This works well with a simple bar graph display. Now to get on a bit, it seems a simple idea to use the lambda signal to control a valve in a small extra air pipe, bypassing the carb, and I know this has been done. The aim being to move the resulting mixture closer to stoich, ie. a low tech system improving on what I have without changing the whole thing. My question is: Who has done this? Are there any suppliers of some of this in kit form? What kind of electronics (computers?) are used? Venlig hilsen (Yours) Rolf Ask Clausen (BSc) Redaktionschef, Ingenicren (Managing editor, Ingenicren) ----------------------------------------------------------- Not agreeing is my job Phone: (+45) 31216810/3218 or (+45) 31216802 tone 3218 Fax: (+45) 31216701. Snail mail: Ingenicren, Skelbeekgade 4, PO.box 373, 1503 Kbh. V., Denmark Ingenioeren - Engineering Weekly - is Denmarks #1 technical journal. Our website is at http://www.ingenioeren.dk My homepage is at http://ing.dk/homepages/rolfclausen/ rac at ingenioeren.dk sig. modified mar. 12. ----------------------------------------------------------- From orlin-s at rclsgi Tue Mar 12 13:54:24 1996 From: orlin-s at rclsgi (orlin steven jared) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:54:24 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: > Does the EGT sensor have to be close to the head? The reason I ask is > that I have headers, and the only practical place to mount EGT's would be > in the collectors. I assume that the temperatures would be somewhat > reduced, but still proportional(?) It would be almost useless to put the EGT sensor in the collector. First, you wouldn't be able to tell squat about mixture distribution between cylinders. Second, in order to get *any* correlation between mixture and EGT temp, you'd have to check with a Horiba lambda sensor. And that is assuming that such a correlation would exist and give you consistant results. You have to use the EGT sensors about an inch or two away from the exhaust port, for best results. Incidentally, I don't know much about T/C's, but I know that certain ones are rated at certain temps, so where you put the thing would depend on what temperature range your T/C's can handle. > How does the mixture affect EGT? Do lean mixtures produce lower or higher > temps than rich ones? >From what I've seen, at mid RPM ranges, rich mixtures (below stoich) produce lower temps, while leaner mixtures produce higher temps. But this is not set in stone. It will depend on the operation of the particular engine being tested. And each relationship between mixture/EGT temp will most likely be different. Which brings me back to my original point (maybe someone elses too?). EGT's are best used for checking distribution, not mixture. > Can you determine if you are at stoich with this method (with any accuracy)? No. > Is there a linear relationship between EGT and AFR or is it a complex > function? It is probably complex, but as I said, could vary for each engine tested. > Is this a practical/effective/reliable way to adjust mixture? Is it only > useful at WOT, or does it maintain some validity at all throttle settings? > > What other factors affect EGT? The last time I checked, 8 thermocouples ran about $240. The readout box, which would give all 8 temps at once would cost about 2000-2500 to pay someone to construct. I'm not an EE guru, but maybe there are some people reading who could build this circuitry themselves for MUCH less. If so, I would think that it would be very cost effective in checking distribution. For fine tuning mixture, you simply need the UEGO sensor, Or some other gas analyzer method which can give you an absolute reading of AFR. Seat of the pants, and trial and error still work well though. Steve From wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca Tue Mar 12 21:22:05 1996 From: wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca (wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:22:05 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: My understanding is that (in general) the exhaust gas temperature is lower with a rich mixture and raises to a point as you get leaner, then starts to drop as you continue going lean. This may or may not be useful in trying to determine your AF ratio, but it is useful in determining when your pistons are about to seize in a two stroke. Polaris put a system on one of their production snowmobiles this year that monitors the exhaust gas temperature while you are at full throttle (like when racing across a lake). If the temperature gets dangerously high the monitor shuts down the ignition for an instant (like a rev limiter). Using a AFR sensor in a standard two stroke is not very practical as a mixture of burnt and unburned gets blown out the exhaust. I had considered using EGT feed back in a fuel injection system for two strokes to richen up the mixture if the temperature got to hot. I have read about a similar technique used by people who race two stroke motocross bikes in the desert. When they started to sense a lean condition, they would operate a finger controlled choke until the engine cooled a bit in order to prevent seizures. >The last time I checked, 8 thermocouples ran about $240. The readout box, >which would give all 8 temps at once would cost about 2000-2500 to pay someone >to construct. You could by a 486 computer and data acquisition card for less then that and end up with something a lot more flexible for a DIYer. Starting Line Products sells an adjustable EGT monitor called a Stutter Box for sleds ($136US for single cylinder, $181 for twin, $227 for triple). They also sell reasonably priced EGT gauges starting at $51US (2") $68US (3"),and $34US for a probe. SLP is at http://www.srv.net/shop/slp/slp.html email: slp at srv.net Royal Distributing (800-265-2970) also sells these gauges (3") $150CAN with a probe. Omega Engineering (800-TC-OMEGA) sells MANY different types of thermocouple probes and gauges as well. It is not overly difficult to construct a thermocouple conditioning circuit. One only needs an amplifier and a cold junction compensation circuit. You can even do away with the compensation if your circuit is always at the same temperature. There are many simple, documented circuits for reading thermocouples if you feel up to constructing one. Will McGonegal Mobile Sources Emissions Division Environment Canada wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca From broberg at asc.on.ca Wed Mar 13 00:26:07 1996 From: broberg at asc.on.ca (Robert Broberg) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:26:07 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: > How does the mixture affect EGT? Do lean mixtures produce lower or higher > temps than rich ones? When I received my flight training in an aircraft with a manual mixture control, I was taught to lean the mixture for cruise: starting with "full rich", lean until the EGT reaches a peak and then richen the mixture until the EGT drops ~50 F below peak. The peak EGT is at some point slightly richer than stoichiometric, and is the point of maximum power. Some pilots recommend running somewhat lean of peak EGT for maximum economy, ie. at stoichiometric. The EGT drops off rapidly when leaning past stoichiometric. Because the training aircraft only had one EGT probe (tied to one cylinder), richening the mixture slightly after reaching peak EGT accounts for cylinders that may run leaner (and hotter), and generally it's safer to run on the cool side. > Can you determine if you are at stoich with this method (with any accuracy)? > Is there a linear relationship between EGT and AFR or is it a complex > function? Unfortunately the EGT curve is rather flat near stoich, so it is hard to pin point with high accuracy. The relationship is not linear. > Is this a practical/effective/reliable way to adjust mixture? Is it only > useful at WOT, or does it maintain some validity at all throttle settings? Piston aircraft have been using this method (manually) for years. The mixture adjustment is usually done at part throttle, except at high altitude where the throttle is wide-open anyway. "Full rich" mixture is recommended for WOT at lower altitudes, to keep the CHT down. Rob Broberg broberg at asc.on.ca AFR = air/fuel ratio CHT = cylinder head temperature EGT = exhaust gas temperature stoichiometric = at chemically ideal AFR From u933234 at student.canberra.edu.au Wed Mar 13 01:16:53 1996 From: u933234 at student.canberra.edu.au (Bruno!) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:16:53 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca wrote: > It is not overly difficult to construct a thermocouple conditioning circuit. > One only needs an amplifier and a cold junction compensation circuit. You can > even do away with the compensation if your circuit is always at the same > temperature. Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos bottle(?) and tuck it under the dash somewhere? in the extremes of heat and cold it may help to measure the temp of the juction with a thermistor, to compensate for the possible change in temperature. Bruno. ( u933234 at student.canberra.edu.au ) "If you've gotta go, go with a smile" From blwalt at ecsis.ecsis.net Wed Mar 13 01:19:48 1996 From: blwalt at ecsis.ecsis.net (Brandon L. Walters) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:19:48 GMT Subject: EGT mixture/Tcouples Message-ID: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB104B.2D4AF7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The last time I checked, 8 thermocouples ran about $240. That's for nice ones w/connectors, right? FWIW, I like to buy the thermocouple wire on a 100' roll, from Omega or Marlin, and make my own. For really hot work, like heat treat furnaces, headers, etc, it's nice to have a friend with a TIG set, then you can (with practice) make very nice round bead junctions with type K wire. Just give it several twists so you can burn back 'till it sticks, before it pops back open. If you accept more error, extension grade T-Couple wire is cheaper. Fastening the bead under a washer or something would be cheaper than buying a probe tip or well. If your amplifier is in a cool place, and the exhaust is so hot, maybe you could get by just reading the millivolts and process that. An Alternate Source, for thermocouples, wire, and probes: Marlin Mfg. Corp 12404 Triskett Rd. Cleveland, OH 44111 (216)941-6200 Brandon Walters ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB104B.2D4AF7A0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ig8BAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABACAAAABSRTogUmVbMl06IEVHVCBtaXh0dXJlL1Rjb3VwbGVzAHgKAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcDAAwA EwAkAAwAAgAnAQEggAMADgAAAMwHAwAMABMADgAOAAIAEwEBCYABACEAAABDNTExNUE0NDM4N0ND RjExOUEzNzAwNjA4QzY3QjRBOAAJBwEDkAYADAUAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAA AAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBAGVR2fRC7AR4AcAABAAAAIAAAAFJFOiBSZVsyXTogRUdUIG1peHR1cmUv VGNvdXBsZXMAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbsQfXZKRFoRxnw4Ec+aNwBgjGe0qAAAHgAeDAEAAAADAAAA TVMAAB4AHwwBAAAAGgAAAFdpbmRvd3MvQlJBTkRPTlcvQlJBTkRPTlcAAAADAAYQvQGKbwMABxDl AgAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAVEhFTEFTVFRJTUVJQ0hFQ0tFRCw4VEhFUk1PQ09VUExFU1JBTkFCT1VU JDI0MFRIQVRTRk9STklDRU9ORVNXL0NPTk5FQ1RPUlMsUklHSFQ/RldJVyxJTElLRVRPQlVZVEhF VAAAAAACAQkQAQAAAIYDAACCAwAAEwUAAExaRnVaBVPs/wAKAQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArA c2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER4nN0ZW0CgzP3AuQHEwKAfQqACM8J2QKABwqBDbELYG5nMTAz DxRQCwoUUQvxID5UaExlIAtgE8AgdAdxICxJIBFwBZBrCYAsILY4GfAZgHIEYAWgdQtQPQeRcgOR AaAIYAVAJDIYNDAuCoUZcGF0J+8EIAIQBcADAGMZkAIgB5GUdy8FoG4ecGN0BbCGcxrgBRBnaHQ/ CoVhCoVGV0lXGuAaUGwGaRqwGfBvIGJ1eXcbEhsbHqBpFhAeURwwINkX4DAnG/AG8Gwa4ANSdCBP B4BnI6AFsAqFTZsKwCFQbhrgAHBkIADABSFxbSHwb3duLiAvIMAFsRYQB0BsIfBob/UFQHcFsGsa 4CFTGYAdgNcZ8CeRBUBmCHBuANAHkL4sCoUo8QSBH2ERwGMa4N5pHZIeEyGhEYB2GZAjoD8DUAiQ JkED8BsgI5FUSbxHIBGxGuAbIQOgeQhg9xpgAHAKhSgtMxNQANAaAO0eMCkmZCxwciHwHhMDYMp1 JkFiKrEgajFwL/FHAiAekS1CdHlwGZBLkyMTHOZKdRnRZ2kscb8rgC3RMLEHQBnwA/F0BCBecyGw LoUhwQShYgDQa7wgJxoAJDA0szABax9hhzGwHdE0o3BvcHMKhZ824zjwCfAc5gqFSWYuc38A0B4w BTEEYCNBBJADYHL9KxF4E9AAgSNxCcAqwR1QXi0IUSLnBAAaYmEzEHLdOi1GGcEJ8AuAZyIDMbP3 MXEEkCORdxnAGzElETXRzweAGyBAgihAdWwxkj62vxsRLtch0UCCI6ATUG9DceUaAHBCMndlJDA6 Ly5y/UGRbQtQBpAIkT6CC4Ajkf8FoAbwL7ALYB4wJhQiEjywfxGANDI+kTXhKAEa4ADAed9DcS6B CoUbgUNBZxHAIcCvIfAyABnRJ5FkQIZtN1H/NIAG8DWxJjJFYSnxBCBEIep0Rn1BA6BBTsAEkR2A /RmQUwhhSYId0hsrGuAjIvMmFEVjczoKhgGRJaUF0ExmZycgCFBycFSKMe0csTQdUAUQcxqwAkAH 8PZkHOZU80MbwCxwF6Ea0cBPSCA0NDFZ4FSKQCgyMTYpOVnQLa42AdAKdgqFQhwBZCNxXlcHQFFB ORYVMQBeIAAAAwAQEAEAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzAgobVkehC7AUAACDAgobVkehC7AR4APQABAAAA BQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAeHI= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB104B.2D4AF7A0-- From fawkacs at ozemail.com.au Wed Mar 13 02:02:35 1996 From: fawkacs at ozemail.com.au (Michael Fawke) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 02:02:35 GMT Subject: Suzuki Swift GTi Twincam 1.3 (87) Message-ID: At 08:28 AM 12/3/1996 MET-1, you wrote: >I'm not into engine modification at all ,and I know this mail-list is >a lot more hitech than I am. When that's said, I was just >wondering if anybody has got some tips of parts (I've read about >chiptuning!) I can easily modify or replace (Also the shops who >supply them (I live in Europe)). If it demands special knowledge >please tell me, or I'll probably ruin my engine. > >Thomas. > The GTI will gain absolutely _nothing_ from a chip change. In australia, several of the companies in the 'chipping' market have got their fingers burnt on GTI's by claiming up to 10Kw improvements. The biggest gain found (by independant testing) was from advancing the ignition timing 2 degrees, and it only gave couple of Kw above 7000rpm. The GTI engine is probably the most highly tuned (as standard) car engine you will ever find. Michael Fawke fawkacs at ozemail.com.au From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Wed Mar 13 02:51:58 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (Darrell Norquay) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 02:51:58 GMT Subject: Long returns!!! Message-ID: > To those people that cut and paste two paragraphs from a previous listing, Or worse, don't cut and paste at all... > just to add one or two sentences, please quit. Hear! Hear! I second this comment, especially directed at those who do not separate the reply from the body of the message. Squinting through 3 screenfuls of previously read messages to find the one liner is BORING! While we're bitchin, another pet peeve of mine is regarding line length. Please limit line length on your editors to 60-70 columns to prevent the one word every-other-line. Also, ensure that your editor is set to put a return char at the end of a line, my mail system crashes real good when it receives an 1824 character line. I hope this doesn't piss anyone off, it's not meant to. Just have a little consideration for the shrinking bandwidth on the Internet, and our poor tired ol' eyes... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From andrewd at axonet.com.au Wed Mar 13 03:26:50 1996 From: andrewd at axonet.com.au (Andrew Dalgleish) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 03:26:50 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: On Wednesday, 13 March 1996 12:14, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca wrote: > > It is not overly difficult to construct a thermocouple conditioning circuit. > > One only needs an amplifier and a cold junction compensation circuit. You > can > > even do away with the compensation if your circuit is always at the same > > temperature. > > Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg > shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos > bottle(?) and tuck it under the dash somewhere? in the extremes of heat > and cold it may help to measure the temp of the juction with a thermistor, > to compensate for the possible change in temperature. I have seen this done using a thermos full of iced water. The trouble is the ice melts. I guess it would be ok for short periods of time, like drag racing. You could use solid state cooling, but that's fairly expensive. Another possibility is to heat your cold junction (e.g. with a power transistor) to a *known* temperature which is hotter than ambient, but less than the hot junction temperature. You have to contend with the chicken and egg here. How do you measure the cold junction temperature in order to regulate it? I guess the real question is how much will this improve the measurement accuracy over just using ambient? > > Bruno. ( u933234 at student.canberra.edu.au ) > > "If you've gotta go, go with a smile" > > Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Senior Software Engineer Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 From dapiper at one.net Wed Mar 13 05:00:56 1996 From: dapiper at one.net (David Piper) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 05:00:56 GMT Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting? Message-ID: >Does anyone have comments on how egt temps change with thermocouple >placement and what max limits may be????. The turbo mfr suggests 1750 max >inlet temp. I observed 1300 F at the exh port during cruise, light load and max of 1450 at 15 psig boost intercooled on a Datsun L28 motor. I think anything above that on a stainless valve is asking for trouble. TurboDave Less Maintenance, More Performance. From tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Wed Mar 13 06:03:26 1996 From: tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (TAR) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 06:03:26 GMT Subject: M68000 family processors Message-ID: Hello fellow tinkerers: I am a recent graduate of Mechanical engineering from the University of Alberta, up here in Canada. I was hoping to glean some information regarding m68k processors as EFI controllers. Specifically, I am looking for information on sensor interface with the chip. I am not familiar with specific sensor outputs ie) does an O2 sensor change a resistance value with changing AFR? or does it produce it's own voltage output? Is the output a linear relationship? How about knock sensors?, MAF sensors? etc. I understand Motorolla makes a chip, the M68332 which is specifically configred for EFI uses. Is this true? I am proficient at M68k family assembly language, but I am not familiar with PAL's, PIA's PIC's and the like. Perhaps someone could point me in the right direction; FTP sites, books, web sites, personal experience etc. Any info you could give me would be greatly appreciated. I request this info so I may make an EFI system for my project car, a 1972 Toyota Celica. I have already designed IRS and fully adjustable suspension front and back. Future plans include Buick 231 V6, 5 speed stick, distributorless ignition with rev limiter and traction control, and of course EFI! Thanks a million gang. Todd- ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Todd Ratke E-mail: tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca or: ratke at nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| From tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Wed Mar 13 06:23:16 1996 From: tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (TAR) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 06:23:16 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: Interesting problem, I have an idea, it should produce acceptable results, but you will have to compensate for the offset voltage produced from the cold end of your thermistor not being @ 0C, this is not too difficult. How about placing the cold end of the thermistor in the coolant stream, preferable close to the thermostat? It won't give extremely accurate results, and it'll be way outta whack before the engine is warm, but the output should be within +/- 50F. The output will undoubtedly be innacurate as an absolute temp reading, how far off depending of course, on the accuracy of your thermostat, but if you are just looking for peak EGT, this should work. It sure would ease the problem of trying to maintain an ice bath, which is not wholly practical for daily use. Any feedback? Todd- |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| From: Todd Ratke e-mail: 7304-83Ave tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Edmonton, Alberta -or- T6B-0G6 ratke at nyquist.ee.ualberta.ca Ph: (403) 465-4036 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| From arthurok at ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 13 06:39:59 1996 From: arthurok at ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 06:39:59 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: the 50*f produces more power than peak egt i was told to NEVER run lean of peak because it can cause valve and cylinder overheating how about measuring head temp . the extra fuel is used to improve valve cooling. if no egt is availible leaning to roughness and then richen till she runs smooth works fine with a cs prop it works fairly well because the tach will not show anything below a dramatic power loss summit automotive has some fairly low cost egt units in there latest catalog. for much less than aircraft types. From SWELTAN at physio.uct.ac.za Wed Mar 13 07:42:10 1996 From: SWELTAN at physio.uct.ac.za (SANDY) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:42:10 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: > cylinders. Second, in order to get *any* correlation between mixture and > EGT temp, you'd have to check with a Horiba lambda sensor. And that is > assuming that such a correlation would exist and give you consistant results. Where are Horiba sensors obtainable. We tried a phone no that was given in Turbo mag, and the number didn't seem to exist. Does anyone have a phone or fax # or e-mail address? Sandy ====================================================================== DR. S.M. WELTAN DEPT OF PHYSIOLOGY Tel. No: (021) 406-6507 UNIVERSITY OF CAPE TOWN Fax No: (021) 47-7669 MEDICAL SCHOOL SOUTH AFRICA e-mail:sweltan at physio.uct.ac.za ====================================================================== From mrb at mpx.com.au Wed Mar 13 09:45:12 1996 From: mrb at mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:45:12 GMT Subject: Postscript viewer ? Message-ID: Can anyone suggest software to view *.ps (postscript) files that are found on the web site. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. From knick at ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Wed Mar 13 11:49:11 1996 From: knick at ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Jens Knickmeyer) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:49:11 GMT Subject: Postscript viewer ? Message-ID: wrote: > > Can anyone suggest software to view *.ps (postscript) files that are found > on the web site. > > regards, > Mark Boxsell > MRB Design. Mark, try Ghostview, a PD program to view postscript files. It is available for Unix (Linux!) and DOS and runs quite well. If you have a Linux package, then you already have ghostview around or you can post-install it easily. Otherwise, you should find the DOS and Linux versions on nearly any ftp-server. Jens ('92 VW Polo-G40) From knick at ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Wed Mar 13 11:51:51 1996 From: knick at ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Jens Knickmeyer) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:51:51 GMT Subject: Suzuki Swift GTi Twincam 1.3 (87) Message-ID: wrote: > > The GTI will gain absolutely _nothing_ from a chip change. In australia, > several of the companies in the 'chipping' market have got their fingers > burnt on GTI's by claiming up to 10Kw improvements. The biggest gain found > (by independant testing) was from advancing the ignition timing 2 degrees, > and it only gave couple of Kw above 7000rpm. The GTI engine is probably the > most highly tuned (as standard) car engine you will ever find. > Michael Fawke > fawkacs at ozemail.com.au I do not know for the Australian market, but ASAIK, the US GTi engines have a bit less power than the German engines, so that chip tuning could possibly give you 10kW in addition. Anyway, I agree with Michael: always be careful with chip tuning. There are good (and rather expensive) kits, and there is a LOT of crap available, esp. for supercharged engines. For my car (Polo-G40), there are kits which ruin the engine quite soon, so that I prefer to stay away from them. Just _my_ opinion... Jens From PBUIJS at estec.esa.nl Wed Mar 13 12:55:20 1996 From: PBUIJS at estec.esa.nl (P. Buijs QCL) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:55:20 GMT Subject: Postscript viewer ? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: note of 96-03-13 11:49 try http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ghostview/index.html cheers, Paul End of Message From fparker at umich.edu Wed Mar 13 13:04:43 1996 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank Parker) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:04:43 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: > > Where are Horiba sensors obtainable. We tried a phone no that was > given in Turbo mag, and the number didn't seem to exist. Does anyone > have a phone or fax # or e-mail address? > > Sandy > ====================================================================== > The Horiba UEGO sensor is available from Horiba @ 5900 Hines Drive, Ann Arbor, MI, USA; phone 313-213-6555. They market a "LAMDA CHECKER LD-01" universal wide range O2 sensor that will read from o.7 to 1.5 times 14.7 stio air fuel ratio.The sensor is made by Ceramic Sensor Ltd, NGK may make the electronics that lineariazes the output and gives a 0-5 volt linear output for a data logger. A very nice unit except since they remarket a allready made unit, the pricing is BAD. The sensor alone is $900 and the output is not linear and the whole unit is $ 2500. I sent email to Link in New Zealand, as they were reported as a possible other source, but no response yet. Anyone know other sources for sensor and/or schmatics for linearizing electronics???? From ehernan3 at ford.com Wed Mar 13 14:04:57 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:04:57 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting? Message-ID: > I love it when the exhaust glows red! > Are Titanium valves geting cheaper? :-) No, believe it or not ordinary valves will can withstand this. We have tried Ti, but they aren't worth the money for street applica- tions. We try them primarily for weight reduction(higher toss speeds, lower 1.5 order couple, reduced nose stresses), not for valve durability. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From ehernan3 at ford.com Wed Mar 13 14:19:35 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:19:35 GMT Subject: volumetric efficiency Message-ID: > > "We concluded this when we got an volumetric efficiency of 1.1 !" > > What makes you think having a volumetric efficiency of 1.1 makes your > meter incorrect? It is entirely possible to get volumetric efficiencies > greater than one. What engine? What rpm? What was it designed to do? The engine is a SAAB 2.3L standard production engine (fuel injection, no turbo, no EGR). The volumetric efficiencies close to 1.1 was obtained around 4000 rpm. Normally the vol. eff. should be 0.85 (see any engine book) which makes an error of (1.1-.85)/.85=29%. How can vol. eff. be greater than 1? You need to think more about what the engine books are trying to tell you, which is this: conventional carbuereted production engines have a typical max vol eff of ~85%. There are always fliers in any set of data. Today's production engines can easily exceed 90%, especially with fuel injection and tuned intakes. The project I am working on will achieve 103% vol eff at peak torque and 97% vol eff at peak power. This is with full exhaust and inlet sytems in place and will be a production engine. These are stellar numbers for a production engine, but are par for course for my target market. Still, 85% is at the low end of average for the data I've seen on today's engines. Vol eff values greater than one mean than you have achieved natural supercharging with a properly designed intake manifold working with a matched camshaft. This isn't a miracle, just rare. Race engines regularly achieve 100% or greater. Production engines are not far behind. Saab make good engines with high specific outputs. 110% might be high, but they certainly make more than 85%. In any case, books only give guidelines and averages. They are by no means absolute nor up to date with the latest technology. From KOHLERNET/GENERATORS/NassJeff%Kohler_Co+p at mcimail.com Wed Mar 13 14:37:01 1996 From: KOHLERNET/GENERATORS/NassJeff%Kohler_Co+p at mcimail.com (NassJeff) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:37:01 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: Try: Horiba Instruments, Inc. 17671 Armstrong Irvine, California 92714 1-800-446-7422 The phone number was good two days ago... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > cylinders. Second, in order to get *any* correlation between mixture and > EGT temp, you'd have to check with a Horiba lambda sensor. And that is > assuming that such a correlation would exist and give you consistant results. Where are Horiba sensors obtainable. We tried a phone no that was given in Turbo mag, and the number didn't seem to exist. Does anyone have a phone or fax # or e-mail address? Sandy From dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU Wed Mar 13 15:02:03 1996 From: dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU (David M Parrish) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:02:03 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: > Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg > shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos Nothing that extreme is needed. For accuracy, the cold junction has to be in ice, since the voltage output depends on the temperatures of both junctions. But if you don't care about absolute accuracy, you don't have any cold junction compensation at all. That's how aircraft EGT's are done. They just add a fudge factor to the meter markings, assuming the cold end will be at some reasonable cabin temp. If you want your EGT's to be accurate down to freezing, you can use an Analog Devices AD594. It's a thermocouple amp with built in ice point compensation and runs about ten bucks US. --- David Parrish EGT at sixty-seven degrees? Hmmm. I thought that engine was running awfully quiet... average cabin temp From kking at HiWAAY.net Wed Mar 13 15:45:26 1996 From: kking at HiWAAY.net (Kenneth C. King) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:45:26 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, David M Parrish wrote: > > Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg > > shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos > Nothing that extreme is needed. For accuracy, the cold junction has to [ munch ] > If you want your EGT's to be accurate down to freezing, you can use > an Analog Devices AD594. It's a thermocouple amp with built in ice > point compensation and runs about ten bucks US. greetings: has it been considered that if you attach the cold side to something in the intake plenum, then the air inlet temp gague could be used to determine the temp of the cold side of the thermo? this would require us to fix the temp in software, altho we could use the hardware to get a ballpark figure & tweak the final number based on how far off 0deg f we actually are... or is this another case of engineering overkill? :) later, kc -- "ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 "he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc From ie21142 at itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx Wed Mar 13 16:05:37 1996 From: ie21142 at itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx (Jose Vicente Loyola Matute) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:05:37 GMT Subject: EFI332 project Message-ID: >From: ie21142 at itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx (Jose Vicente Loyola Matute) >Subject: EFI332 project > >>To: diy-efi >>From: ie21142 at itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx (Jose Vicente Loyola Matute) >>Subject: EFI332 project >> >>Hello there! >> >>Does anybody knows where i can learn more about the efi332 project? >> >>I tried: >> >>>http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html >> >>and I get: >> >>>Error 404 >>> >>>Not found - file doesn't exist or is read protected [even tried multi] >>> >> >>thanks a lot! >> From fcmefi at fishnet.net Wed Mar 13 16:21:56 1996 From: fcmefi at fishnet.net (Fred Miranda) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:21:56 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: >> Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg >> shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos can someone explain "cold junction" does it have to do with the voltage produced at the junction of the thermocouple wire and your measuring circuitry? how do you interface a thermocouple? a cmos op amp? Fred From fridman at cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Mar 13 17:04:25 1996 From: fridman at cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:04:25 GMT Subject: EFI332 project Message-ID: > >>To: diy-efi > >>From: ie21142 at itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx (Jose Vicente Loyola Matute) > >>Subject: EFI332 project > >> > >>Hello there! > >> > >>Does anybody knows where i can learn more about the efi332 project? > >> > >>I tried: > >> > >>>http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/wwwhome/aden/efi332/332_index.html > >> > >>and I get: > >> > >>>Error 404 > >>> > >>>Not found - file doesn't exist or is read protected [even tried multi] > >>> > >> > >>thanks a lot! > >> Things must have been rearanged at the 332 homepage. Try this address: http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/~aden/web-docs/efi332/332_index.html RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman at cpsc.ucalgary.ca From fridman at cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Mar 13 17:27:36 1996 From: fridman at cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Robert Fridman) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:27:36 GMT Subject: M68000 family processors Message-ID: > Hello fellow tinkerers: > > I am a recent graduate of Mechanical engineering from the University of > Alberta, up here in Canada. I was hoping to glean some information > regarding m68k processors as EFI controllers. Specifically, I am looking > for information on sensor interface with the chip. I am not familiar with > specific sensor outputs ie) does an O2 sensor change a resistance value > with changing AFR? or does it produce it's own voltage output? Is the > output a linear relationship? How about knock sensors?, MAF sensors? etc. You came to the right group;) > I understand Motorolla makes a chip, the M68332 which is specifically > configred for EFI uses. Is this true? I am proficient at M68k family > assembly language, but I am not familiar with PAL's, PIA's PIC's and the > like. Perhaps someone could point me in the right direction; FTP sites, > books, web sites, personal experience etc. Any info you could give me > would be greatly appreciated. There is more information onthe M68332 project at the M68332 home page which can be access through the diy_efi www page at: http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi. BTW, if you need any 68020 chips sets (CPU,MMU,FPU), I have 4 sets for sale. RF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman at cpsc.ucalgary.ca From ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com Wed Mar 13 19:01:30 1996 From: ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com (ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:01:30 GMT Subject: EGT Message-ID: Fred Miranda wrote: > can someone explain "cold junction" > does it have to do with the voltage produced at the junction of > the thermocouple wire and your measuring circuitry? > how do you interface a thermocouple? a cmos op amp? A thermocouple is a junction between two dissimilar metals which produces a voltage dependent on temperature. When you join a Chromel and an Alumel wire (type K thermocouple used for EGT's) you have a junction. You also have two other junctions that are also thermocouples: Chromel Copper - v2 + + /-----------^---------------- + v1 < Meter - \-----------v---------------- - Alumel + v3 - Copper The voltage at the meter is v1 + v2 + v3. In a laboratory environment, you could put junctions 2 and 3 in an ice bath, and read the voltage v1, and by using a thermocouple reference table, look up the temperature. In the real world, most measuring devices either tie junctions 2 and 3 to a thermal mass of known temperature, or in the case of an analog meter, dismiss it entirely. The reference junction temperature (- 32 deg. F) is then added to the measurement. Another method is to use a cold junction compensator, which is a temperature- dependent voltage source. National Semiconductor makes one, although I don't remember the chip number. To measure the voltage, an opamp wired as a differential amp or high impedance single-ended DC amplifier can be used, or special purpose instrumentation amp can also be used. Differential amps are required when the junction is grounded. While laboratory instruments have a high input impedance (100 Meg is typical) as long as the junction is of sufficient cross-sectional area and the overall wire length isn't outrageous, a differential amp with a 200K ohm impedance will give reasonable results. Remember, a thermocouple can deflect an unpowered analog meter movement! Most types of thermocouples are somewhat non-linear, although for EGT, type K is reasonably flat (maximum variation of 10 degrees through the range of 800-1800 F). Cliff Ducharme From btm at usa.nai.net Wed Mar 13 19:34:52 1996 From: btm at usa.nai.net (Brad Martin) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:34:52 GMT Subject: Suzuki Swift GTi Twincam 1.3 (87) Message-ID: At 12:51 PM 3/13/96 MET, you wrote: > wrote: >> >> The GTI will gain absolutely _nothing_ from a chip change. In australia, >> several of the companies in the 'chipping' market have got their fingers >> burnt on GTI's by claiming up to 10Kw improvements. The biggest gain found >> (by independant testing) was from advancing the ignition timing 2 degrees, >> and it only gave couple of Kw above 7000rpm. The GTI engine is probably the >> most highly tuned (as standard) car engine you will ever find. >> Michael Fawke >> fawkacs at ozemail.com.au > >I do not know for the Australian market, but ASAIK, the US GTi engines >have a bit less power than the German engines, so that chip tuning could >possibly give you 10kW in addition. >Anyway, I agree with Michael: always be careful with chip tuning. There >are good (and rather expensive) kits, and there is a LOT of crap available, >esp. for supercharged engines. For my car (Polo-G40), there are kits which >ruin the engine quite soon, so that I prefer to stay away from them. > >Just _my_ opinion... > >Jens I think we are confusing rice burners with krautwagons here. From garyd at informix.com Wed Mar 13 21:18:27 1996 From: garyd at informix.com (Gary Dunn) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 21:18:27 GMT Subject: Al u-bends Message-ID: dan, I would seriously like to get more info on the tubing bender you designed for mandrel bending aluminum. Please let me know if plans are available. I have my own mill and lathe. Thanks, Gary From wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca Wed Mar 13 22:25:40 1996 From: wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca (wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:25:40 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: This message is intended for those who are interested in thermocouple information. >I have seen this done using a thermos full of iced water. The >trouble is the ice melts. >Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of >insulation, eg shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , >or in a thermos bottle(?) >How about placing the cold end of the thermistor in the coolant >stream,..... It won't give extremely accurate results,..... if you are >just looking for peak EGT, this should work. Every connection in the TC (thermocouple) system between dissimilar metals acts as a TC. Cold junction compensation is used to offset the effects of joining your TC to a measuring device (which has different metals in it). Using a cold junction allows you to read the voltage directly and get the temperatures from a TC reference table. 0C (zero Celsius) is usually used as the reference junction temperature, and in TC reference tables the TC voltage at 0C is 0 volts. For junction compensation of a TC you do not need an actual cold junction at 0C. You need to measure the temperature at the point where the TC probe is attached to your conditioning circuit. Both of the TC wires must be at the same temperature at the junction where they join into the conditioning circuit. If you know the temperature of the junction and you have a TC voltage/temperature look up table you can properly correct your TC voltage reading. To correct for the junction, look up what the voltage for your TC type is for the junction temperature. Add this voltage to the voltage reading from the TC leads at the junction. Then look up the final voltage in the TC reference table to get the actual TC temperature. Of course it is easiest to get a computer to do all this looking up and calculating. If your junction is always at the same temperature (like room temperature) you could always use the same offset voltage (depending on what accuracy you want). A circuit which adds in the proper compensation voltage based on the junction temperature can also be used. Using an ice bath and a second TC at 0C properly connected in with the first TC does the voltage addition for you if you prefer not to have a compact, easy to use, and portable system. If you are just looking for temperature peaks, take your two leads coming from your TC and attach a digital voltmeter in the millivolt range. When you get your highest meter reading you have reached your highest temperature. Curves can be substituted for the tables. Tables and curves are available from TC sources such as Omega Engineering. There is a very good description of TC principles in the Omega Engineering temperature catalog. Some suitable semiconductor devices for measuring the junction temperature are: AD590 - Analog Devices part that outputs 1 uA per degree Kelvin (very easy to use, require a resistor and voltage supply to get a voltage proportional to temperature). This device is good to 150C, so it can be used to measure other things as well. LM335 - National Semiconductor part similar to AD590 >If you accept more error, extension grade T-Couple wire is cheaper. Extension grade has similar characteristics to TC grade over a limited temperature range. The error outside this range may be quite large. Will McGonegal Mobile Sources Emissions Division Environment Canada wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca From staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us Wed Mar 13 22:34:57 1996 From: staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us (Jim Staff) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:34:57 GMT Subject: What's my project Message-ID: Edward Hernandez > What are you building, kart? Powerplant? Tell us and I'm sure someone > can help you figure out a way to qualitatively determine your WOT > volumetric efficiency. I'm thinking you could try to monitor exhaust > gas temperature(EGT) vs rpm, which can be done without a dyno. I'm building it for the Super Mileage Vehicle Competition; High School Level. For many of you in College and associated with the automotive engineers society (can't remember the 3 letter acronym) have done something very similar. The object is to build a vehicle that passes a bunch of regulations, on turn radius, length, with, hieght, weight, drivers wieght, engine horse power, engine type (Only a Briggs and Stratton!) with a very simple object. Get the most miles per gallon. Our vehicle from Eagan High School is one of the best in the state. We use a fiberglass composite body, we have hydralic disk brakes, and a very efficient low drag vehicle design. We only managed to get 139 MPG last year but set the stock class (No engine modifications run record with (around, after all it's been almost a year since then I don't really remember) 390 MPG!!! After that our motorcycle tranny ate it and died so we got docked for the laps we couldn't complete... Ohh well. The overall winner was Grand Rapids HS with 750 MPG. They use a mechanical injection system that was very ancient. Besides that I'm all done with my system except to build it. And to replace a part I can't find in units less than 25! If anyone out there has an extra 2 or 4 74AC11520's or 54AC11520's from Texas Instruments please let me know. Also If anyone is interested in helping our team, or wants more information. (We love donations the school only gives us $400 a year) you can send a letter to : Eagan High School Attn : Mr. Bob Knodt Independent School Distric 196 4185 Braddock Trail Eagan, MN 55123-1575 Mr. Bob Knodt is the instructor of the activity, if your wondering. If anyone here is real good with electronics I'll send them a copy of my schematic if they send a letter. I'd love to get it checked over. Also if anyone here would works at a place that does board etching of some kind and would like to make a gracious donation of etching my board I'd love that. I'd love it even more if someone out there could redo my board with an autorouter as I laid out all this stuff by hand. Time to stop my bleeding heart letter. Thanks for the help. Jim Staff From staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us Wed Mar 13 23:39:43 1996 From: staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us (Jim Staff) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:39:43 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: I think I'l go with the optical encoded disk with the HEDS 1000 as the detector. I only need 100 lines on the disk and the disk is 3 inches in diameter. I can make massive marks. Besides that I can print on a 1200 DPI Laser printer and then photographically generate the laminate wheel I need. Or even better I have a friend who is a machinist and I'd have him machine a disk with the right dimensions out of leaded steel with the right type of finish. Also a briggs want's to die below a typical 1500 RPM, without a load. Since we have a tranny with a nuetral we would die if we ever had to stop. Another thing is Briggs and strattons have a MTBF of several thousand hours. Of course you have to change the oil every 100 hours, and we use zinc impregnated synthetic oil to improve life. The life expectancy on the device you brought to my attention would still be useless to me. 10,000,000 ratations at 4000 rpm (Maximum acceleration RPM in this case) isn't that impressive. Also I need to run this bastard more than likely 100 hours just to hammer out the kinks. Life does suck!! **Attn** : If anyone out there has an port injector rated for ?15 lbs/hr and is willing to donate, give, or sell to me drop me a E-mail!!!!! Jim Staff From staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us Wed Mar 13 23:52:34 1996 From: staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us (Jim Staff) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:52:34 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: In message <3142D4CA.2715 at access.digex.net> writes: > >> That's less than 28 hours at 6000 rpm. Are you sure there isn't > >> another 1000 in there? > > > When was the last time you saw a Briggs + Stratton doing 6000 RPM? > > Modified Briggs and Stratton engines used for go-kart racing spin well > over 5000. > > Bill These folowing Mods could get a Briggs & Stratton 3.5HP well into that range. 1:) Turbocharger : I have already designed most the system, but for my application efficiency not power is important. 2:) Replace the crackshaft with a high efficiency crack. (I have one changed the horse power from 3.5 to 3.9!!!) These are cool things smaller with larger counterwieghts. They provide a smother ride too! 3:) Fuel injection. Especially with a turbocharger could get a briggs in the stratosphere as far as RPM goes. 4:) A new piston : You'd melt a standard piston real quick, they're a low grade aluminum, cheap as hell. Replacing it with a Stainless steel piston would make it nearly flame proof. 5:) A new connecting rod. Most are made of aluminum to, and would shear with no problem at that speed and Horse power. 6:) Increased compression ratio. A briggs and startton has a compression ratio of 4.7:1 max at the factory. I like 10:1 or 11:1 much better. 7:) Change Cam profile to a design more conducive to fuel injection. (A lot of these changes I've considered to do with my Super Mileage Vehicle) Walla: A Briggs that runs at ?10HP, and 7-8000 RPM. All from a 3.5HP I'm deranged, it's sick that I know so much about such a shitty old engine! Jim Staff From gmd at tecinfo.com Thu Mar 14 01:03:46 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 01:03:46 GMT Subject: TPI and thermostats Message-ID: Gentlemen, A while back I inquired about cold thermostat = more power for tuned port FI engines. As a testiment of my typicly bad luck, the original thermostat in the engine was stuck open. Temps were at record lows in MS, so I drove it as is for several days. Fuel economy was 10-11 mpg (city). After changing the thermostat to 180 (instead of 195 per GM) fuel economy did not improve much and, I still had heater temp problems. I changed the thermostat to a high quality 195 F unit and tossed the cheap 180F AUTOZONE unit. It looks like the final MPG figure for the week will be around 14 - 16 mpg, and the heater is putting out like Bessmer Furnace. Question: My TBI engine used a 180 F thermostat and got 12-13 mpg city. Is the difference software or engine thermodynamics? Why did the cold TPI motor fall on it's face? BTW, I could detect a slight increase in power. I can imagine that the electronics may have allowed the A/F ratio to thicken a bit and advanced the timeing as part of the 'warm up code'. The Chilton manual does list incorrect or damaged thermostat as a possible cause of low fuel economy. Hate to ask this one but, since I lost my pride due to a bad love affair years ago, here it goes :-[] Up to a limit, could one expect better economy at ...say...220F (secondary fan turn on point)? I am aware of the lubrication problems and detonation at high temps, what are others? thanks, GMD From grantb at nait.ab.ca Thu Mar 14 02:38:59 1996 From: grantb at nait.ab.ca (Grant Beattie) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 02:38:59 GMT Subject: EGT for mixture setting Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Bruno! wrote: > Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg > shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos > bottle(?) and tuck it under the dash somewhere? in the extremes of heat > and cold it may help to measure the temp of the juction with a thermistor, > to compensate for the possible change in temperature. Don't bother. Analog Devices (AD595) and Linear Tech (LT1025?) make cold junction compensator ccts and amps. The circuit becomes a no-brainer and the output voltage is 10mv/deg C. GB From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Thu Mar 14 04:33:34 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (Darrell Norquay) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 04:33:34 GMT Subject: UEGO sensor Message-ID: > Anyone know other sources for sensor and/or schmatics for linearizing > electronics???? About 4 years ago, we ran across a family of sensors manufactured by GTE Labs. Among the several flavors was an oxygen gas sensor. The model number was MGS-2000, and it measured 0-100% oxygen (equivalent AFR 0-40). The unit looks like a standard automotive O2 sensor, but with 6 leads. The sensor was developed in conjunction with Waukesha for their stationary engines, what they called the Waukesha Lean Burn Control System. It operates on an electrochemical pumping principle, using zirconia ceramics. It's output is a linear function of oxygen concentration. Unlike an automotive sensor, it does not require a reference gas port (air bleed), and you simply calibrate it in air to read 21% O2. I don't know if this was ever made into a commercial product, or how much it costs, but it could be worth looking into. The sensor has a heater (2 leads), a type K thermocouple for measuring internal temperature (2 leads), and the output, which is a current. Not too difficult to interface to, we actually got a sample of one of these to play with, but it was a different style which was optimised for reading methane gas. It didn't suit our application, but I still have it kicking around somewhere. At the time, I wasn't into EFI, so I didn't pursue it further. The address is: GTE Laboratories 40 Sylvan Road Waltham, Ma 02254 617-466-4123 , Contact: Joseph Cote As I said, this was a few years ago, so I don't know if the phone # / contact name is still valid. If anyone looks into this, keep us posted... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From r.dingli at ee.mu.OZ.AU Thu Mar 14 06:47:15 1996 From: r.dingli at ee.mu.OZ.AU (robert dingli) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 06:47:15 GMT Subject: Fuel injector optimum location Message-ID: Charlie Harris writes, > Placement of the fuel injector always seems to generate a lot of > "discussion". Unfortunately, there isn't always an easy answer, even in > similar conditions. As an example, I'd like to point out the difference in > injector location on two Indy car engines. The Ford-Cosworth variety places > the injector low in the port, just above the inlet valve. This should enable > more precise distribution between cylinders, though at some loss in fuel > evaporation due to the slightly shorter travel. The Mercedes Benz-Ilmor (my > job, BTW) places the injectors high above the trumpets. This gives slightly > more time for fuel vaporization, but gives slightly less control over where > the fuel ends up. Injector location can also affect throttle response. Injectors closer to the inlet valve provide a shorter path for the liquid film and better transient response. An SAE paper detailing Mazda's 1993 (??) LeMans engine (the 26B quad rotor that was mentioned a few weeks back) mentioned the benefits of at least a couple injector positions with respect to power and economy (they were running in a fuel quantity restricted class). I can't find the reference right now, but as Charles mentioned, injectors placed further up the inlet stream result in better vapourisation and mixing. There is also more time for the vapourising fuel to absorb heat from the air - cooling the inlet charge. The down side is an increase in response time. One of my project cars (Toyota Celica RA23, 3SG 16v) has the injectors mounted in the head which makes inlet manifold fabrication rather easy. regards, Robert -- Robert Dingli r.dingli at ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** From dzorde at aesprodata.com.au Thu Mar 14 06:58:51 1996 From: dzorde at aesprodata.com.au (dzorde at aesprodata.com.au) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 06:58:51 GMT Subject: TPI and thermostats Message-ID: A cold motor means the ECU is runnig open loop and rich, this could explain the bad fuel economy and why the power is not what it should be. The ECU does not (as far as I'm aware) go into closed loop until everything is reasonably warm. Dan dzorde at aesprodata.com.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: TPI and thermostats Author: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 3/14/96 2:37 PM Gentlemen, All gone thanks, GMD From dhe1 at cornell.edu Thu Mar 14 12:28:11 1996 From: dhe1 at cornell.edu (Dan Elsberg) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 12:28:11 GMT Subject: Al U-bender Message-ID: To all the folks who asked about the u-bender, I'll post something after I get back from my spring break (next wednesday). I'm just trying to get out of town right now. Sorry for the delay. --dan -- Dan Elsberg (607) 272-1574 Cornell University, Engineering Physics dhe1 at cornell.edu From jzalesny at ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 14 22:06:41 1996 From: jzalesny at ix.netcom.com (JimZ -92' AWD Tsi ) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:06:41 GMT Subject: Al u-bends Message-ID: >I would seriously like to get more info on the tubing bender you >designed for mandrel bending aluminum. Please let me know if plans >are available. I have my own mill and lathe. > >Thanks, >Gary A poor mans u-bender consists of a set of pipe benders from JC Whitney, clean fine sand, plugs for the pipes and t-clamps. On one end of pipe to be bent insert a plug and t-clamp it in. Fill other end of the pipe with sand until almost full. Insert the second plug into the open end and clamp the plug in. Bend the pipe using the pipe benders. The sand is the secret to keeping the even radius bend, it does not allow the pipe to compress. ___ _________________________________________________ ___ |___| _________________PIPE____________________________ |___| plug plug _________________________________________________ plug->|___|____________sand in pipe_________________|___|<-plug ^ ^ |____ ___| clamp clamp Works with all different size tubing. cheers JimZ From jac at wave.sheridan.wy.us Fri Mar 15 00:25:57 1996 From: jac at wave.sheridan.wy.us (john carroll) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:25:57 GMT Subject: thermocouples Message-ID: I use the AD594 device to compensate and linearize thermocouples. Does anyone have experience multiplexing in front of one? ----------------------------------------------- jac at wave.sheridan.wy.us john carroll From scicior at cp.uswc.uswest.com Fri Mar 15 14:40:18 1996 From: scicior at cp.uswc.uswest.com (Steve Ciciora) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 14:40:18 GMT Subject: thermocouples Message-ID: > I use the AD594 device to compensate and linearize thermocouples. > Just because the specs say something like "output is 10mV/Deg C" dosn't mean that these devices linerize themocouples. I don't think they do. -Steven Ciciora > Does anyone have experience multiplexing in front of one? > > ----------------------------------------------- > jac at wave.sheridan.wy.us > john carroll > > From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Fri Mar 15 15:26:31 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:26:31 GMT Subject: L-jetronic Message-ID: Hi Orin The Bosch trottle position comes in both rotations. The Weber trottle body used on the Renault is the opposite rotation of the Ford trottle body as you know. The German cars (BMW) have the trottle body switches in the other directioin. Even so I was not happy with the fit, and I prefer to sense the manifold pressure to go to enrichment. The manifold pressure switch was used on Volvo's and on late Renaults using the LU-jetronic. But I still don't know a PN or where I can get one. Nor do I know at what pressure the switch closes/opens. The trottle body injector I use for the MGB (1800cc) is a E43-AC, ~752cc/min @ 14.7lb/sqin. It's about 4 times the injector flow of the port injectors for the Renault i18 or Fuego. The MGB engine and manifold can't take the lean running condition of the design value for the L-Jetronic. It therefore idled poorly (too lean) and hesitated when accelerating. I was able to overcome all of that by loosening the spring of the air flow meter by two notches, and by increasing the fuel pressure to 17 lb/squin. The key for good idle and operation is to run at the design mixture level the engine and manifold. This means no lamda (O2) sensor. Decreasing the spring force on the air meter decreases the maximum air measuring capability (runs lean at wide open trottle), so I also toyed with the calibration of the air meter. Depending on the air meter you can increase the fuel flow by changing one of the reference resistor values in the air meter (thats the resistor that feeds the potentiometer). The last and best way is to modify the computer to put out more fuel by a fixed percent across the whole range of operation. This is a little more tricky and beyond my ability to describe here. With any of the changes above, the car ran good and idled just fine cold or hot. I never had any cold start problem with the system. It starts easily with at -10F. You might check the cold start injector circuit, and be sure that the cold start injector is designed for the fuel pressure you are using. You need a low pressure injector. You can get one from the old VW's that use trottle body injection. I really like the Electromotive unit. Did you program it, or are you using the program that comes with it. Werner --------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: L-jetronic Werner, Did you ever find out what the flow specs. are for the Ford (Bosch) injectors are??? I remember you said that you were having trouble with the system running lean on the "B"..I had the same problem when I tried your approach and never could get the thing to run as I would like. I also never overcame the cold start problems..You know, on very cold days it would idle very rough...Warm days ok, but cold days really bad. I have switched over to the Electromotive TEC II and it runs fine, although a little lean, but the system is very expensive and defeated the real purpose...A cheap replacement for the SU's or Zenith carbs...Let me know how you're making out ... Orin Hi Werner, I also had a hard time fitting a switch to the Ford throttle body and what I finally used were 2 micro switches on a bracket that I mounted where the idle air motor had been mounted. I never did like this approach. I looked into using the Bosch switch but as you know it's rotation is backwards and I never really came up with a good solution. The vacuum switch sounds like a good alternative. You never gave me the injector part number. You said you thought it was green color coded but when I talked to you, you couldn't remember. If you have time, please look it up and send it to me. If you know it's flow rate, please let me know that also. I also upped the fuel pressure to 17 or 18 PSIG and it did help a lot. You didn't say how you had overcomed the poor idle when cold problem. What have you done there?? Orin From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Fri Mar 15 15:51:35 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:51:35 GMT Subject: No Subject Message-ID: Item Subject: cc:Mail Text Hi James The L-Jetronic uses an air meter with a flap. Yes it is restrictive. My original plan was to get this system going. Put in the fuel delivery system, get the injector(s) working and just prove the feasabilty. Then I was going to move up to the fancy $1800 Electromotive TEC II system. It uses a Mass Air Flow meter. Anyway the L-jetronic seems to work well enough to satisfy me, but I am still itching to add a turbo, and for that I want to control the ignition and will probably need the Electomotive system. A later Bosch system called the LH-Jetronic was digital and used a MAF meter. This was used in the '80s on Volvo up to '88. The L series Bosch systems are very nice because they are so easy to adapt. They only use the ingnition coil signal. No fancy crank sensors are needed. Anyway the problem for hot rodders are that these systems were used mainly in relatively small engines except for Jaguar, BMW and the like. And for the price of those in a junk yard, you might as well use Electromotive systems. The L-Jetronics uses only the air meter signal (air temperature and Air flow, together they give air volume), the water temperature and the ignition (rpm and crank position) to calculate Fuel. Trottle position is not used except to enrich at 2/3 trottle and to cut out the fuel above 1500 rpm when at closed trottle. This is actually very accurate and very simple. The air meter gives out a voltage that changes logorithmically with the air flow. It also has a thermistor for air temperature. To use the L-Jetronic system You will have to find a car with about the same size engine as the one you want to adapt. This is most likely to be your biggest obstacle. Of course you could run two systems, one on each side of a V8. How big an engine are you using anyway? My suggestion is that you should try to get something working, and then keep working to make it better. You can always try to get started with the Holley trottle body. Used ones are often for sale by someone who has upgraded. This way you will get the basics in place like the fuel delivery, the high pressure pump, etc. For more information get the Probst book on Bosch systems. Good Luck Werner From dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU Fri Mar 15 17:54:33 1996 From: dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU (David M Parrish) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:54:33 GMT Subject: thermocouples Message-ID: > > I use the AD594 device to compensate and linearize thermocouples. > > > Just because the specs say something like "output is 10mV/Deg C" dosn't > mean that these devices linerize themocouples. I don't think they do. Nope. It amplifies and provides an ice reference, but doesn't do linearization. The polynomials to linearize the output of all the common thermocouples are well known and I've attached a small Pascal program I used for demonstration with the AD595 and a K thermocouple. You can use the polynomial in the controller firmware, or better yet, use this program to generate a look-up table. > > Does anyone have experience multiplexing in front of one? I may be a bit banger, but I know that mux'ing millivolt signals can be tricky. Any analog guru's out there? Program Kcouple; { AD595 outputV= (K voltage + 11uV)*247.3 K volt = outV/247.3 - 11uV K volt =4.043672e-5*digits - 1.1e-5 (10.24Vref) K volt =2.9631204e-5*digits - 1.1e-5 (15.00Vref) K volt =1.9754136e-5*digits - 1.1e-5 (15.00Vref, 2/3 gain) EGT max = 954oC (1750oF) K thermocouple: 0 to 1370 oC +/- 0.7 oC } var x : integer; v, T : double; Begin writeln(' x K mV T oC T oF'); { NNNN NN.NNNN NNNN.NNN NNNN NNNN.NNN NNNN } for x:=0 to 2047 do begin { v:= 4.043672e-5*x - 1.1e-5;} v:= 1.9754136e-5*x - 1.1e-5; T:= 0.226584602 + v*(24152.10900 + v*(67233.4248 + v*(2210340.682 + v*(-860963914.9 + v*(4.83506e10 + v*(-1.18452e12 + v*(1.38690e13 + v*(-6.33708e13)))))))); writeln(x:4,(v*1000):8:4,T:9:3,T:5:0,((T*9/5)+32):9:3,((T*9/5)+32):5:0); end; End. --- David Parrish Hey, don't laugh. I taught myself Pascal with the original Wirth compiler. From mike at cooper.zynet.co.uk Sat Mar 16 01:12:07 1996 From: mike at cooper.zynet.co.uk (Mike Rigby-Jones) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 01:12:07 GMT Subject: Encoder Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:52:04 GMT, you wrote: > > 1:) Turbocharger : I have already designed most the system, but for my >application efficiency not power is important. > 2:) Replace the crackshaft with a high efficiency crack. (I have one changed >the horse power from 3.5 to 3.9!!!) These are cool things smaller with larger >counterwieghts. They provide a smother ride too! > 3:) Fuel injection. Especially with a turbocharger could get a briggs in the >stratosphere as far as RPM goes. > 4:) A new piston : You'd melt a standard piston real quick, they're a low >grade aluminum, cheap as hell. Replacing it with a Stainless steel piston would >make it nearly flame proof. > 5:) A new connecting rod. Most are made of aluminum to, and would shear with >no problem at that speed and Horse power. > 6:) Increased compression ratio. A briggs and startton has a compression >ratio of 4.7:1 max at the factory. I like 10:1 or 11:1 much better. > 7:) Change Cam profile to a design more conducive to fuel injection. >(A lot of these changes I've considered to do with my Super Mileage Vehicle) > Walla: A Briggs that runs at ?10HP, and 7-8000 RPM. All from a 3.5HP I'm >deranged, it's sick that I know so much about such a shitty old engine! > > Jim Staff > Hey its good to know that some sad people still play with these things. I had several of these engines to play with some years back. I ported one and put larger valves in and raised the compression as much as possible, also got rid of the so called 'carb' and put on one from a Honda 125 OHC. Don't know what sort of power it got but the kart it was in went pretty well!!! I think you would have a major problem getting 10:1 compression from the beast. The area needed for the valves o move up and down pretty much limits the max compression especially if you put big valves in. Stainless steel piston???? Bit heavy I would have thought? Why not graft in a crank and piston from said Honda?? ( BTW most pistons tend to be flame proof!!!!) This would solve the con rod problem as well (I have seen several of these snap even when the engine was powering a mower) The flywheel is also a little suspect for high rpms. In fact its lethal so get rid of it or at least strengthen it in some way. As for a turbo, well it'd have to be VERY small just to be turned over by a B&S let alone produce boost. I managed to get some kind of vacuum pump from a old milking machine which could be used in reverse as a pressure pump. It was a vane device and had a fair displacement so I was toying with the idea of supercharging but never really got it finished. I think that would be the way to go instead of turbos. cheers Mike RJ From CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com Sat Mar 16 03:49:37 1996 From: CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com (Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 03:49:37 GMT Subject: BS ENGINES Message-ID: >> 4:) A new piston : You'd melt a standard piston real quick, they're a low >>grade aluminum, cheap as hell. Replacing it with a Stainless steel piston would >>make it nearly flame proof. > >Stainless steel piston???? Bit heavy I would have thought? Why not >graft in a crank and piston from said Honda?? ( BTW most pistons tend >to be flame proof!!!!) This would solve the con rod problem as well >(I have seen several of these snap even when the engine was powering a >mower) Aluminum pistons being flame proof?! Aluminum melts at around 1100F (used to work in an aluminum foundry). Flame temp inside an IC engine is around 1600F. At 1600F, aluminum is a really pretty BRIGHT orange liquid! The only thing that saves the piston is the limited time that the fuel/air is burning (relative to the total time) and the heat transfer to the cylinder. If you increase the amount of energy being generated in the combustion chamber (say by turbocharging or just increasing the breathing of the engine) enough, the piston will not be able to dump the extra energy to the cylinder and bam, you melt a nice hole in the piston. BTW, molten aluminum is not the best lube in the world! All in all, aluminum is not the best material for a piston. Unfortunately, a really great material (Carbon/Carbon Composites) costs about fifty times as much! Maybe someday we will all have pistons that CANNOT melt. Clint ccorbin at intel7.intel.com From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Sat Mar 16 20:33:17 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (Darrell Norquay) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 20:33:17 GMT Subject: thermocouples Message-ID: > I use the AD594 device to compensate and linearize thermocouples. > > Does anyone have experience multiplexing in front of one? > John: It's pretty difficult to multiplex the direct signals from thermocouples. Using an electronic approach, any type of analog multiplexer usually has a relatively high series resistance (compared to the t'couple) and introduces a lot of error. A mechanical approach (using relays) is better in some respects, but you still get a thermocouple effect from the metal in the contacts, as well as resistance, and it's slow. Mercury wetted reed relays may work, I've never tried this. In any case, you'd have to do the cold junction comp before the MUX anyway. A better approach would be to use some sort of a simple preamp circuit to bring the output of each thermocouple up to a more manageable level, and buffer the thermocouple output with a low impedence driver. You could then use a standard multiplexer chip and a final gain/offset stage to get a calibrated output. The Analog Devices AD594 has no linearization of the TC input. You can use some external components to improve the linearity, but a type K is reasonably linear anyway, (better than other TC types) and for this application you don't really care if the temp is 1294.8 deg or 1298.4 deg, a few degrees one way or the other isn't going to make a difference. Analog Devices has a relatively new chip, P/N AC1226, which does the cold junction comp, buffers the signal, and gives an output of 10 mV per degree C. It also has some rudimentary linearization built in, it's pretty general but does improve the linearity significantly. The device has a built in temperature sensor, and is extremely low power to minimze self heating, you would physically mount it right on your isothermal block where TC leads meets copper wire. I don't know the cost on these, but it should be reasonable. If you use one per TC, and then MUX these together into an A2D or display device of some kind, you should be able to come up with a relatively low cost system with good accuracy. If you don't feel up to building one, almost all manufacturers of PC A2D converter boards (National Instruments, Strawberry Tree, Burr Brown, etc.) have an optional multi-channel signal conditioner / terminal board that have cold junction comp and preamps built in. These usually run in the $150-$300 range, a bit dear but saves a lot of work, especially if you only need one. regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From elansi01 at mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com Mon Mar 18 18:03:47 1996 From: elansi01 at mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (Ed Lansinger) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:03:47 GMT Subject: BS ENGINES Message-ID: Clint Corbin wrote: >Aluminum pistons being flame proof?! Aluminum melts at around 1100F (used to >work in an aluminum foundry). Flame temp inside an IC engine is around 1600F. >[snip] >If you increase the amount of energy being generated in the combustion chamber >(say by turbocharging or just increasing the breathing of the engine) enough, >the piston will not be able to dump the extra energy to the cylinder and bam, >you melt a nice hole in the piston. >[snip] >All in all, aluminum is not the best material for a piston. Geez, Clint, that's an awfully harsh statement considering aluminum is the preferred material for production and many racing pistons these days, *including* turbocharged and supercharged engines. Aluminum being a more expensive material than steel, there must be a good reason that the OEMs use it. Actually, _exhaust gas temperature_ is around 1600F, flame temp in the combustion chamber is more like 3000F. Iron and steel are already starting to get rather weak around 1600F; 3000F will melt either. So piston durability must be a more complicated issue than simply one of material selection. As you allude, heat transfer is very important. Aluminum is a nice material from that standpoint, much nicer than steel. It's not clear to me that simply redoing the same aluminum design in steel will improve durability - strength at the same temperature goes up, but the piston temperature goes up because it can't transfer heat as quickly through itself to the walls, wrist pin, oil, intake air, etc., plus you have much greater stresses from the greater mass you are throwing around. Obviously, I'm not a piston designer. I have heard of people having lots of success with aluminum pistons and heads that use a (ceramic) thermal barrier coating. Maybe this would be a good solution to the original question (which I missed). Ed Lansinger GM Powertrain Premium V (Northstar/Aurora) Software & Calibration Group From ehernan3 at ford.com Mon Mar 18 20:49:19 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:49:19 GMT Subject: PIstons Message-ID: Ed Lansinger wrote "Aluminum being a more expensive material than steel, there must be a good reason that the OEMs use it." 1) It's light and won't yank the crankpins off the crank at 6000rpm. 2) It's much easier(read cheaper) to machine than steel. 3) You were correct about the rest, except than combustion temps can reach upwards of 4400 F(transient, but hot). Not bad for a calibrator; with some training, you be a decent piston engineer. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com Mon Mar 18 20:52:34 1996 From: ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com (ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 20:52:34 GMT Subject: RE BS ENGINES Message-ID: Ed Lansinger wrote: > I have heard of people having lots of success with aluminum pistons and heads > that use a > (ceramic) thermal barrier coating. Maybe this would be a good solution to the> original > question (which I missed). I like it - ceramic pistons/cylinders for B&S engines... >From what I have seen, the limiting factor on the B&S as far as HP production is concerned is the basic design (L-head, small valves, limited heat rejection capacity from the fin area, no pressure lubrication to cool the piston crown). You can put bigger valves in, enlarge the ports, regrind the cam lobes, and add a larger carburetor(throttle body) but the head design impedes bumping up the compression ratio from its lowly value, and without improved cooling, the engine will self-destruct from seizing if the crank or connecting rod doesn't break first. But I still think the're a great engine. My project engine was purchased in 1970 when I graduated from high school, cut acres of grass for many years until the mower deck rusted away, was lucky if it saw an annual oil change, and when I dissassembled it last fall before starting my senior project, I couldn't find a ridge at the top of the cylinder! The aluminum bore still had crosshatch marks in places and, other than exterior rust, corrosion and flaked paint, showed little signs of such abuse. For its intended purpose, that's hard to argue with. What was the original question? P.S. Ed - Great article in Circuit Cellar Ink. It helped me greatly. Cliff Ducharme From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Mon Mar 18 23:43:24 1996 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:43:24 GMT Subject: BS ENGINES Message-ID: Hi, I'm new to this list, but perhaps as a metallurgist I can help with some of this: >Clint Corbin wrote (in part): >>All in all, aluminum is not the best material for a piston. Ed Lansinger replied (in part): >As you allude, heat transfer is very important. Aluminum is a nice >material from that... Actually this is probably about the most important factor, but there is also the fact that aluminium alloys have a thin naturally forming protective coating of aluminium oxide which has a far higher melting point than the metal itself. Aluminium actually 'burns' in a similar manner to magnesium (ie exothermically) - remember the British ships with aluminuim superstructures which 'burned' for days after being hit with Exocet missiles during the Falklands war ?? >standpoint, much nicer than steel. It's not clear to me that simply redoing the same >aluminum design in steel will improve durability - strength at the same >temperature goes >up, but the piston temperature goes up because it can't transfer heat as >quickly through >itself to the walls, wrist pin, oil, intake air, etc., plus you have much >greater >stresses from the greater mass you are throwing around. Exactly, steel certainly has poor thermal conductivity relative to aluminium (and stainless steel is even worse). The greater reciprocating mass would mean lower engine speeds and performance, etc. Vehicles built in the early part of this century actually used cast iron pistons because aluminium metallurgy and particularly casting metallurgy, was in its infancy. But the speed of these engines was quite low, so the stresses on the cast components was kept to manageable levels. >I have heard of people having lots of success with aluminum pistons and >heads that use a >(ceramic) thermal barrier coating. Maybe this would be a good solution to >the original >question (which I missed). Just for interest, modern piston materials are actually a special aluminium/silicon alloy although engine builders have been experimenting with ceramics for a number of years now - I believe some diesel engines now use pistons 'crowned' with a ceramic barrier. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From sauron at linux.nycmetro.com Tue Mar 19 02:21:08 1996 From: sauron at linux.nycmetro.com (Sauron) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 02:21:08 GMT Subject: PIstons Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Edward Hernandez wrote: > Ed Lansinger wrote > > "Aluminum being a more expensive material than steel, there > must be a good reason that the OEMs use it." > > 1) It's light and won't yank the crankpins off the crank at 6000rpm. > 2) It's much easier(read cheaper) to machine than steel. > 3) You were correct about the rest, except than combustion temps can > reach upwards of 4400 F(transient, but hot). Not bad for a calibrator; > with some training, you be a decent piston engineer. > > > Ed Hernandez > Ford Motor Company > ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com > Yes, aluminum is a much easier material to work with, but iron or steel would be a techinically better choice, if the weight were less. Also, manufacturers rarely retool their operations for iron or steel, if aluminum gives a similar level of performance. From tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Tue Mar 19 04:01:35 1996 From: tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (TAR) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:01:35 GMT Subject: ICE ceramic coatings Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Stephen Lamb wrote: > ......... although engine builders have been experimenting > with ceramics for a number of years now - I believe some diesel engines now > use pistons 'crowned' with a ceramic barrier. Stephen, You are absolutely correct, This technology is being used in large displacement diesel engines normally found in Natural Gas tranmission facilities. I believe a number of manufacturers are toying with the concept for commercial applications. There are a number of definate advantages to using a ceramic barrier on piston crowns and cylinder heads. Ceramic coating technology is a fairly new field of application for both diesel and propane powered vehicles. In fact, the most common coating material I've heard being used is a Zirconium-Oxide blend. In deisel engines, the result of ceramic coatings is lower emissions (especially during throttle transitions) and improved engine efficiency. However, the materials engineers still have problems getting an even coating and have an even harder time preventing cracks in the coatings. The distinct advantage in propane powered vehicles comes not from the lowered emmissions, but rather from the insulating properties of Zirconium-Oxide. Propane tends to burn a lot hotter than gasoline engines, furthermore many people run higher compression ratios to gain some of the horsepower lost from a propane conversion. This usually results in decreased engine life. By using a ceramic coating, the heat normally transferred out the piston top and cylinder head is greatly reduced resulting in cooler oil and coolant temperatures. An added bonus is increased engine efficiency and a cleaner tail-pipe. One project I have on the go right now is a propane conversion on a 1996 Chrysler minivan. It is a competition among major universities accross North America sponsored in part by the SAE, called the LPGV challenge (Liquified Petroleum Gas Vehicle). One of the fuel systems we are working on is direct liquid propane injection and ceramic coated pistons and cylinder heads. Should prove to be an interesting project. PS: if any of you have tried this before, I would appreciate any information you could give me, we are all novices with direct injection and would sure like some insight into some solutions for this most difficult engineering problem. Thanks a million gang, Todd Ratke, tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca From warren at advgroup.co.nz Tue Mar 19 04:52:31 1996 From: warren at advgroup.co.nz (Warren Crowther) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:52:31 GMT Subject: Ignition Controller Message-ID: Does anyone know if there is any PCB artwork for programmable ignition controller project around?? I have the schematics, and i'll do my own if i can't find any. thanks _______________________________________________________________ Warren Crowther yeeehaaa! O Mobile (025) 870-155 Software Engineer ##\\-/_, DDI +649 3610625 warren at hypercom.co.nz -O----O-' Ph +649 3602834 x5625 Hypercom Communication Technologies Fax +649 3602840 From postmaster at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM Tue Mar 19 08:46:28 1996 From: postmaster at CABLER.CABLEREGINA.COM (by way of markus@cabler.cableregina.com Markus Lien) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:46:28 GMT Subject: Alternate fuel EFI Message-ID: Greetings from the Great White North (Canada) My interest in EFI first came when I assisted my father in law in transplanting a 5.0 multiport drivetrain into a '68 meteor then my father in transplanting a 2.5l TBI into his '85 Dodge Rampage. Both cars were imense successes and I believe Dodge could have made money from this car if they were to have done this themselves! My personal EFI story started 10 years ago when I converted my '68 GMC to run on propane. The original system consisted of an evaporator and a mixer, the evaporator is basically a large welding regulator set to supply a presure just below atmospheric and the mixer is two plates with a gap between them of about 1", the top plate has a smaller hole than the bottom plate. The mixer sits on top of the existing carb and gives the evaporator a vacuum signal. This system sucked! As soon as the air filter got dirty the system went rich, if barometric pressure was much different than the day the system was set, it went nuts, extreme temperatures seemed to throw it off. We have some extreme temperature swings of as much as 30Deg. celcius in a 24 hour period. Mileage ranged from 15 MPG to about 4 GPM (yes gallons per mile). I eventually came across (I'll call it an Electronic fuel control system) from a company called Technocarb. This system uses an O2 sensor, TPS and input from the tach lead (its intended to be used on and already EFI engine) it then uses a stepper motor to run a valve placed in between the evaporator and the mixer. This controls the amount of vacuum the evaporator see's. The ECM is a unit built by an Italian company, I think its called AFB, and appears to run off a fuel map until the O2 sensor is up to temp. The acuracy of this system is good, I am consistently running 18 MPG city or highway. The problem with this system is that the air flow through the mixer is poor, resulting in low power. Also my evaporator is starting to stick, this will be my 3rd one at $400 each. The ECM has a diagnostics port which gives a reading from 0 to 256, indicating the position of the fuel control valve. What I was thinking of was replacing the evaporator, mixer and fuel control valve with a TBI nozzle controlled by a circuit which 'translates' the fuel control valve position into an on/off pulse width. My questions are: Is my understanding of the way a TBI regulates fuel accurate? How well would the nozzle withstand the higher pressures of propane(up to 120 PSI)? when the vehicle sits and under the hood heat causes vapor in the fuel line how well would vapor blow through the nozzle at startup? How low can the fuel pressure go before the nozzle won't work(at -40 you can carry propane in a bucket)? finally, how many nozzles would I need to feed enough fuel? The engine is a 350 stroked to 383 using Kieth Black silv-o-lite pistons (on the topic of alluminum metallurgy wizardry). The cam is short duration with high lift combined with the longer stroke take better advantage of the slow burn characteristics of propane. Because propane is stable under pressure the heads are small chamber and have been shaved should give compression ratio of around 11:1 Sorry for the long-windedness but this is the result of 10 years of struggling to achieve a usable aternative fuel engine. Markus P.S. If you are wondering why anyone would do this it is because our government taxes the hell out of gasoline but leaves propane alone because it is envirnmentally sound. Go green, Save that planet! From markus at cabler.cableregina.com Tue Mar 19 08:55:29 1996 From: markus at cabler.cableregina.com (Markus Lien) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:55:29 GMT Subject: Direct injection propane Message-ID: >Todd Ratke asked if anyone has any experience with direct injected > propane. In talking to the manufacturer I mentioned in my previous message he told me about a chev 350 they set up on a test stand and simply connected LPG to the fuel line. He said that it would run for about 10 minutes before the manifold plugged with ice. With my system I was planning on mounting the injector nozzle at the end of a tube heated with engine coolant to fully vaporize the fuel before it hits the air stream. A more elaborate system could use a number of smaller tubes to facilitate multiport injection. Markus From Talltom at teleport.com Tue Mar 19 11:56:11 1996 From: Talltom at teleport.com (Talltom) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:56:11 GMT Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #80 Message-ID: Hello, hope you don't mind the ignorant asking questions.(I'm new to this list) All the talk about ceramics, aluminum, heat dissipation, coolant temperatures etc. is nice but what about fuel requirements in relation to thermal conductivity? Seems to me the less heat that is transfered out of the combustion chamber the higher the combustion chamber walls will be. Would seem that the higher the combustion chamber walls will increase temperature of air/fuel and cause preignition. An old wives tail(that's the way I want it!) says that b.b. chevy iron blocks used to make more power than similar aluminum blocks. The aluminum headed cars lately are able to get by with 11.5-1 compression on the same fuel that my cast iron headed 8.5-1 knocks on. (W/O boost) I know cummins and sae did some research on ceramics in the mid 80's but never knew results. Anybody have any ideas that would make any of this look coherent? From wrl at access.digex.net Tue Mar 19 13:10:19 1996 From: wrl at access.digex.net (Bill Lewis) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:10:19 GMT Subject: B&S ENGINES Message-ID: > You can put bigger valves in, enlarge the ports, regrind the cam > lobes, and add a larger carburetor(throttle body) but the head design > impedes bumping up the compression ratio from its lowly value, > and without improved cooling, the engine will self-destruct from > seizing if the crank or connecting rod doesn't break first. > But I still think the're a great engine. Back in my junior high school days, we used to "shave the head" by rubbing it against sandpaper on a glass plate. Then we ate away some between the valves and the edge of the cylinder wall. Later on I learned that was a common technique used on the Flathead Ford V8. Called "relieving" I think. I always prefered the Tecumseh because you can't set the ignition timing on a Briggs. Breaking connecting rods was always a problem until we found a place selling heavy duty rods made from aluminum bar stock. These small engines are tremendous fun. Bill From 72614.557 at compuserve.com Tue Mar 19 13:39:58 1996 From: 72614.557 at compuserve.com (Jim Steck) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:39:58 GMT Subject: direct injection propane Message-ID: >My questions are: Is my >understanding of the way a TBI regulates fuel accurate? How well would >the nozzle withstand the higher pressures of propane(up to 120 PSI)? >when the vehicle sits and under the hood heat causes vapor in the fuel >line how well would vapor blow through the nozzle at startup? How low >can the fuel pressure go before the nozzle won't work(at -40 you can >carry propane in a bucket)? finally, how many nozzles would I need to >feed enough fuel? 1) 'EFI' controls fuel delivery by adjusting pulse width of the injectors, but the pressure to the injectors has to be controlled. There are several pressures used, but for TBI it's about 1 bar above manifold pressure. The pressure regulator has a reference port to the manifold and maintains the pressure differential between fuel and manifold . . . reason . . . the injectors have a minimum 'open' time. If you had a high pressure differential across the injector at high manifold vacuum (like at idle), fuel delivery would be too much even at minimum 'open' time. If you pick a smaller injector to reduce flow at idle, you won't have enough flow at WOT. 2) I would not expect the injectors to be reliable above 6 or 7 bar (they might not open). 3) The vapor will cause hard starting, but it will surely pass through the injectors. 4) Most TBI systems I've seen (gasoline) use two injectors. Your flow rate seems to be similar. The injectors are available in different sizes. I don't know what the lubricating properties of propane are . . . perhaps none . . . or if the injectors will survive propane long term. Try calling Ak Miller in California (310) 949-2548 . . . call early (5 - 7 am Pacific time) and talk to AK. They use propane in many of their turbocharged systems (some very high horsepower). I don't know how they control (inject) it. -Jim Steck Are you using any kind of instrument to monitor the fuel mixture? For a modest price ($130 - $180 US) there are several (some better than others) meters that read the O2 sensor and give you an immediate display of mixture. From kking at HiWAAY.net Tue Mar 19 15:29:07 1996 From: kking at HiWAAY.net (Kenneth C. King) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:29:07 GMT Subject: BS ENGINES Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Stephen Lamb wrote: > Hi, I'm new to this list, but perhaps as a metallurgist I can help with > some of this: [ munch ] > Exactly, steel certainly has poor thermal conductivity relative to > aluminium (and stainless steel is even worse). [ munch ] greetings: perhaps, then, you could explain why going to stainless steel valves is an 'upgrade'? in light of it's poor heat transfer, what might be a reasonable material for an exhaust valve (due to excessive heat)? yea i know titanium is the 'best' due to weight & fatigue factors, but how well does it conduct heat? (anna one-a, anna two-a... :) later, kc (the inquisitive one) -- "ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 "he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc From fawkacs at ozemail.com.au Tue Mar 19 22:39:29 1996 From: fawkacs at ozemail.com.au (Michael Fawke) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:39:29 GMT Subject: Alternate fuel EFI Message-ID: At 03:46 AM 19/3/1996 -0500, you wrote: >What I was thinking >of was replacing the evaporator, mixer and fuel control valve with a TBI >nozzle controlled by a circuit which 'translates' the fuel control >valve position into an on/off pulse width. My questions are: Is my >understanding of the way a TBI regulates fuel accurate? How well would >the nozzle withstand the higher pressures of propane(up to 120 PSI)? >when the vehicle sits and under the hood heat causes vapor in the fuel >line how well would vapor blow through the nozzle at startup? How low >can the fuel pressure go before the nozzle won't work(at -40 you can >carry propane in a bucket)? finally, how many nozzles would I need to >feed enough fuel? Ford (Australia) offers an LPG conversion which uses the standard injectors (multi-point) to inject LPG. The injectors have a slot cut in the side of them and a second fuel rail fits over the outside. Liquid LPG comes from the tank and goes through the slot with unused LPG flowing out throught the normal fuel rail. I'm not quite sure how they do this last part.... The standard ECU is shut down and a second ECU is used - developed by Inject Racing Developments (Melbourne, Australia). The overall package was developed by Tickfords Engineering, but most LPG conversion centres are now making this available. Michael Fawke fawkacs at ozemail.com.au From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Tue Mar 19 23:38:39 1996 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:38:39 GMT Subject: ICE ceramic coatings Message-ID: >One project I have on the go right now is a propane conversion on a 1996 >Chrysler minivan. It is a competition among major universities accross >North America sponsored in part by the SAE, called the LPGV challenge >(Liquified Petroleum Gas Vehicle). One of the fuel systems we are working >on is direct liquid propane injection and ceramic coated pistons and >cylinder heads. Should prove to be an interesting project. PS: if any of >you have tried this before, I would appreciate any information you could >give me, we are all novices with direct injection and would sure like some >insight into some solutions for this most difficult engineering problem. There is a company over here (in South Australia, from memory) that has built an LPG injection system as an 'add-on' to the existing EFI system. Unfortunately I know little about its technical details, other than the fact that a demonstrator vehicle (locally built Ford) has been in research and testing for about a year now. It was shown on one of our science programs and appeared to run well apart from minor hiccups with the control electronics. I'm sorry I can't give more detail (hardly surprising given the commercial implications). Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From mymove at serv01.net-link.net Tue Mar 19 23:59:31 1996 From: mymove at serv01.net-link.net (William Sarkozy) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:59:31 GMT Subject: ICE ceramic coatings Message-ID: At 09:01 PM 3/18/96 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Stephen Lamb wrote: > >> ......... although engine builders have been experimenting >> with ceramics for a number of years now - I believe some diesel engines now >> use pistons 'crowned' with a ceramic barrier. > >Stephen, > >You are absolutely correct, This technology is being used in large > > PS: if any of >you have tried this before, I would appreciate any information you could >give me, we are all novices with direct injection and would sure like some >insight into some solutions for this most difficult engineering problem. > >Thanks a million gang, > >Todd Ratke, >tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca > > Pikes Peak racer and old-time-engineer extrordinaire Ak Miller probably has more experience with LPG powered vehicles than anyone in the nation. He can be reached in Pico Rivera, CA at (310) 949-2548. Cheers Bill From r.dingli at ee.mu.OZ.AU Wed Mar 20 01:08:35 1996 From: r.dingli at ee.mu.OZ.AU (robert dingli) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:08:35 GMT Subject: Alternate fuel EFI Message-ID: Michael Fawke and Stephen Lamb have both described the same LPG injection system. The system was developed by Liquiphase Injection (formerely known as Biocom) in South Australia and has received support from Ford Australia. The LPG efi system was developed by Injec Racing Developments who previously marketted an aftermarket efi product of dubious quality. Just to expand on some of the technical details.. The injectors are modified standard Bosch injectors as used on the Ford Falcon (6 cyl 4.0 litre). To overcome LPG vapourisation problems within the injectors (which tend to freeze them), they decided to create a bottom feed injector to minimize the flow path for the delivered fuel. This modification involves machining a slot into the base of the Bosch injector and fitting a separate LPG feed fuel rail. The unsed LPG is fed back to the tank via the standard petrol fuel rail and some solenoid valves. The LPG is fed to the engine by an in-tank efi pump. While the pump creates a pressure differential required to flow the LPG, the absolute pressure of the fuel is governed by the temperature of the tank (butane/propane vapour pressure) which varies greatly. The vapour pressure is far in excess of the pump pressure and hence a fuel pressure regulator wouldn't be able to maintain a constant pressure differential. While it is an interesting approach there are a few technical problems. The injectors, now running at much higher pressures, require a much higher operating voltage to pull them open. There is also the issue of machining debris falling into the injectors during the slot cutting operation and the errosion that would be expected within the injector due to LPG vapourisation. It would be interesting to see the injector durability stats. The recirculating injection system adds a lot of heat to the fuel which is returned to the tank. During initial runs they resorted to surrounding the tank with ice but I don't know of a long term solution. The last problem is the petrol/LPG switchover which I know is slow and cumbersome. I have heard stories of LPG bubbling through the petrol tank. Since LPG is such a good fuel (very cheap and easily obtainable in Australia) I can't see why they opted to make the system dual fuel in the first place. A single LPG fuel system would make more sense and solve many of the problems. Just my thoughts. Robert -- Robert Dingli r.dingli at ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** From 72614.557 at compuserve.com Wed Mar 20 02:54:53 1996 From: 72614.557 at compuserve.com (Jim Steck) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:54:53 GMT Subject: stainless steel valves Message-ID: >perhaps, then, you could explain why going to stainless steel valves >is an 'upgrade'? in light of it's poor heat transfer Durability at temperature . . . strength and corrosion resistance. The stems are usually chrome plated or steel stems welded to the stainless steel head. Conductivity works both ways . . . it doesn't heat up very fast either . . . >what might be a reasonable material for an exhaust valve >(due to excessive heat)? yea i know titanium is the 'best' due to >weight & fatigue factors, but how well does it conduct heat? My first choice would be silicon nitride . . . very poor conductivity . . . but no thermal mass. It makes nice turbine blades for turbochargers (Buick GNX), and some race engines have used it. It's even more expensive than titanium, and less forgiving of shock. -Jim Steck From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Wed Mar 20 03:23:06 1996 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 03:23:06 GMT Subject: Alternate fuel EFI Message-ID: >Ford (Australia) offers an LPG conversion which uses the standard injectors >(multi-point) to inject LPG. The injectors have a slot cut in the side of >them and a second fuel rail fits over the outside. Liquid LPG comes from >the tank and goes through the slot with unused LPG flowing out throught >the normal fuel rail. I'm not quite sure how they do this last part.... >The standard ECU is shut down and a second ECU is used - developed by >Inject Racing Developments (Melbourne, Australia). The overall package >was developed by Tickfords Engineering, but most LPG conversion centres >are now making this available. I bow to your greater knowledge. I didn't think they'd got to the production stage yet. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Wed Mar 20 03:24:55 1996 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 03:24:55 GMT Subject: BS ENGINES Message-ID: >From pistons to valves in one fell swoop......... >> Exactly, steel certainly has poor thermal conductivity relative to >> aluminium (and stainless steel is even worse). > [ munch ] >greetings: > perhaps, then, you could explain why going to stainless steel valves >is an 'upgrade'? in light of it's poor heat transfer, what might be a It's amazing the mystique and myths surrounding stainless steels. These materials benefit from their high chromium content (>10%) which generates a strongly adhereing oxide and imparts benefits similar to the oxide 'coating' on aluminium alloys. Thus, in their austenitic form (don't ask me to explain that !), they have good high temperature oxidation resistance and this is good for use in engines. However, there are a couple of problems with their use in engines. One is relatively poor thermal conductivity which gives a greater risk of burnt valves. The other is that they have thermal expansion rates approximatelt twice that of alloy steels which means that, all other things being equal, greater clearances must be used to compensate. So it's a balance really, but unless your exploring the limits of combustion (eg a really 'hot', turbo/super-charged engine) then I'd recommend sticking with a quality, austenitic steel valve. Certainly for street performance engines these would be more than adequate. >reasonable material for an exhaust valve (due to excessive heat)? yea >i know titanium is the 'best' due to weight & fatigue factors, but how >well does it conduct heat? (anna one-a, anna two-a... :) (Very) Generally speaking, titanium has about the same thermal conductivity as stainless. The advantage of titanium would be in the lower inertia of the valve system, but the cost would be considerably greater. My titanium mets' a bit rusty but I suspect that high temperature characteristics may be less than satisfactory. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Wed Mar 20 08:13:02 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (Darrell Norquay) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:13:02 GMT Subject: Propane Fuel Injection Message-ID: Todd Ratke writes: > Zirconium-Oxide. Propane tends to burn a lot hotter than gasoline > engines, furthermore many people run higher compression ratios to gain > some of the horsepower lost from a propane conversion. This usually > results in decreased engine life. By using a ceramic coating, the heat I have to disagree with you there, Todd. Propane engines tend to last a LOT longer than gasoline engines (all else being equal). Higher compression ratio does not shorten engine life appreciably per se, it's just that it tends to be used in high performance applications which demand more from an engine. The other advantages which propane shows over gasoline tend to more than balance out the added stresses that propane may impart on the combustion chamber. When was the last time you saw a gasoline powered engine run 500,000 miles between rebuilds - something that propane powered Taxis do on a regular basis... > normally transferred out the piston top and cylinder head is greatly > reduced resulting in cooler oil and coolant temperatures. An added bonus > is increased engine efficiency and a cleaner tail-pipe. Not to mention added thermodynamic efficiency which tends to extract more useable power per BTU of fuel... > One project I have on the go right now is a propane conversion on a 1996 > Chrysler minivan. It is a competition among major universities accross > North America sponsored in part by the SAE, called the LPGV challenge > (Liquified Petroleum Gas Vehicle). One of the fuel systems we are working > on is direct liquid propane injection and ceramic coated pistons and > cylinder heads. Should prove to be an interesting project. I would be most interested if you kept me posted on this. I haven't heard of this competition before, but I am very interested in fuel injection for propane. Besides, you're just down the road a piece... > PS: if any of > you have tried this before, I would appreciate any information you could > give me, we are all novices with direct injection and would sure like some > insight into some solutions for this most difficult engineering problem. I started a thread on this list a couple of months ago on propane EFI, and got some interesting replies... One was from an Aussie company who were developing a dual fuel port injection system. I could forward you some of the pertinent messages if you're interested... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Wed Mar 20 08:13:14 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (Darrell Norquay) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:13:14 GMT Subject: Alternate fuel EFI Message-ID: Markus wrote: > Greetings from the Great White North (Canada) How's it goin, eh? Ya hoser... > supply a presure just below atmospheric and the mixer is two plates > with a gap between them of about 1", the top plate has a smaller hole > than the bottom plate. The mixer sits on top of the existing carb and > gives the evaporator a vacuum signal. What the heck kind of a mixer is this? Thought I'd seen em all... > This system sucked! As soon as the air filter got dirty the system went > rich, if barometric pressure was much different than the day the system > was set, it went nuts, All propane mixers suck! I haven't found one yet that does a decent job of it. Tried Impco, OHG, and now I'm running a Century mixer, on my 350 Camaro engine. BTW, you can fix the air filter thing with a balance line. On your vaporizer (evaporator), on the top side where the large diaphragm is, there's a port which is normally just an atmospheric vent for the back of the regulator diaphragm. (May have a little brass screen in it) Tap this out to 1/8" NPT (it's the right size already), put in a large STRAIGHT hose barb for at least 3/8" ID hose. Run the hose to another fitting which goes through the air filter housing to the inside of the filter. This effectively references the vaporizer regulator to the pressure on the back side of the filter instead of just atmospheric. This will eliminate the running rich with a dirty filter. Or, you could just change the filter once in a while... :] > I eventually came across (I'll call it an Electronic fuel control > system) from a company called Technocarb. This system uses an O2 > sensor, TPS and input from the tach lead (its intended to be used on > and already EFI engine) it then uses a stepper motor to run a valve > placed in between the evaporator and the mixer. This controls the I'd be interested in some more details on this system, costs, who sells it, etc. > this system is good, I am consistently running 18 MPG city or highway. Damn, 18 MPG is just a dream with me, my engine gives about 12 around the city... > The problem with this system is that the air flow through the mixer is > poor, resulting in low power. Also my evaporator is starting to stick, > this will be my 3rd one at $400 each. Most propane mixers (carburetors) aren't designed for decent airflow. Add to that the fact that you usually have 2 carbs stacked one on top of the other, and you're lucky to flow 450 CFM... The Century mixer I'm using has excellent air flow, and a nifty setup for distributing the fuel into the airstream, but the fuel metering is sh*t. I want to do a TBI injection setup to start out, and possibly upgrade to port injection as time and money allow... BTW, you can buy rebuild kits for the vaporizer for around 30 bucks, beats hell out of buying a new one. Piece of cake to install, too. > of was replacing the evaporator, mixer and fuel control valve with a TBI > nozzle controlled by a circuit which 'translates' the fuel control > valve position into an on/off pulse width. My questions are: Is my > understanding of the way a TBI regulates fuel accurate? How well would > the nozzle withstand the higher pressures of propane(up to 120 PSI)? This is probably not gonna work. Problems you would encounter with liquid propane are: 1. sudden demand for fuel causes the fuel pressure to drop so fast that the propane "boils" in the fuel lines, causing gaseous fuel to go through the injector and lean out the mixture drastically, usually with nasty (read expensive) consequences. 2. Injecting liquid propane into a throttle body would freeze the thing solid in minutes. 3. I haven't found any fuel injector which would open above about 80-90 PSI. Some Aussies did some work with a port injection system running at full system pressure, but they had an in tank fuel pump which circulated fuel past the injector a la most OEM fuel injection systems. They had to jack up the voltage to the injector to something like 32 volts to get it to open. 4. It may be difficult to get the injector to work accurately with the widely varying fuel pressures you get with temperature. At low temperatures, it probably couldn't supply enough pressure for the injector to run the engine, and at high temperatures, you'd have too much pressure and couldn't get the injector to shorten up the pulse width enough. The current idea I'm working on is to use the fuel in the gaseous state, using half a standard vaporizer, (remove the fuel pressure regulator guts) and regulating it with a standard gas regulator to somewhere around 50-60 PSI (maybe higher). Feed this into a standard dual TBI type injector, and see what happens. The higher-than-normal fuel pressure should allow the injector to supply enough fuel (even though it's designed for liquid fuel) but not so high as to affect the opening time. > The engine is a 350 stroked to 383 using Kieth Black silv-o-lite Yeah, when my 350 bites it I'd like to go with a 383 conversion... Anyway, speaking of long winded... Keep in touch, man, I am serious about doing this. Propane should be the fuel of choice, at least here in Canada, an' it's CHEEP! I been running it for years, and bitching about the lack of performance the whole time. It's time we dun somethin 'bout it... regards dn -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- From HIHA at GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de Wed Mar 20 08:29:38 1996 From: HIHA at GNF99M.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de (Hans Hintermaier) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:29:38 GMT Subject: Stainless steel valves Message-ID: Someone wrote about titanium valves. I think you mean Titan-nitrid coated (once seen in a Harley sportster) They have a golden-looking finish. The best currently used valve material is "Inconel", once used in Bell's X-15 aircraft (or rocket?) to resist air-friction at Mach 23 and more. It is temperatur stabil up to 1200 C.(I hope I remember right). Today they use it for race car exthaust-pipes and big-diesel valves. It contains more then 50% of nichel. (Our metallurgist would know exact values?) TiN-coating a valve has similar functions as hard chroming. Hans hiha@ brain.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de From mrb at mpx.com.au Wed Mar 20 10:13:47 1996 From: mrb at mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:13:47 GMT Subject: Alternate fuel EFI Message-ID: At 09:40 AM 20/03/96 +1000, you wrote: > >Ford (Australia) offers an LPG conversion which uses the standard injectors >(multi-point) to inject LPG. The injectors have a slot cut in the side of >them and a second fuel rail fits over the outside. Liquid LPG comes from >the tank and goes through the slot with unused LPG flowing out throught >the normal fuel rail. I'm not quite sure how they do this last part.... >The standard ECU is shut down and a second ECU is used - developed by >Inject Racing Developments (Melbourne, Australia). The overall package >was developed by Tickfords Engineering, but most LPG conversion centres >are now making this available. > >Michael Fawke >fawkacs at ozemail.com.au > > Michael, Tickfords (and/or Ford) DO NOT SELL the Biocom system. The system Tickfords sells is a normal mixer type deal. The people who took over Biocom (I can't remember their name) had to redesign the ECU that Injec did because it wasn't doing the job. Ford (Australia) have tested the system at various times and have given minor support. I am not trying to give you a hard time however you should get your facts right before broadcasting stuff that goes all over the world. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. From ehernan3 at ford.com Wed Mar 20 19:40:19 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 19:40:19 GMT Subject: Stainless steel valves Message-ID: "Someone wrote about titanium valves.I think you mean Titan-nitrid coated (once seen in a Harley sportster) They have a golden-looking finish. The best currently used valve material is Inconel..." No, we have run real titanium valves. Be careful with the word 'best'. Inconel isn't light like titanium and therefore usuited for high rpm use. I don't remember the properties of Ti either, except to say that it was strong enough for the Blackbird. That said, it's funny how that plane leaked fuel until skin warmed up... Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From TLEAKE at novell.com Wed Mar 20 21:13:19 1996 From: TLEAKE at novell.com (Tom Leake) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:13:19 GMT Subject: Help with Torque converter lockup controller /Weber type Message-ID: I am trying to work through a little problem with my van. I am hoping some on the DIY-EFI list might help. I have a 83 Dodge Van I which I have installed an A518 Transmission (the big dodge OD automatic). When I installed the unit I discussed the lockup with a Mechanic who indicated that it would not hurt the trans to leave the TQ "unlocked up". I have since found from a transmission specialist that this is not true of this transmission. I can use a manual lockup switch, but since my wife drives the vehicle also and does not want to bother with details I need a more automated method. Is anyone aware of a dedicated lockup controller (not part of a complete Engine management system). It appears from the the Jeff Hartman bookd that I could use a DFI controller and convert the vehicle to a complete system, At the moment I am not prepared to invest in the complete EFI system (unless I could get a DFI controller very inexpensively). The other question is about EFI throttle bodies that match WEBER 45MM DCOE pattern. Are there any production vehicles that use a compatible throttle body, or is there a supplier that sells a such a beast. I have seen some pictured in Hartman's book, but the supplier was'nt clear to me. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks, Tom Leake From sandyg at interramp.com Wed Mar 20 22:51:05 1996 From: sandyg at interramp.com (Sandy) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:51:05 GMT Subject: BMW 323 Injection Message-ID: This is a change of pace for me, I just got a 1980 BMW 323i Alpina with a great 2.3L 6 cylinder! One problem with it however, is that the idle is unstable. It will 'motor boat' up and down, usually stalling out. Other times it is stable. I haven't as yet found out much about the system, I think it is a bosch j-tronic, it is all mechanical, fuel distributer, etc. Any ideas where to start looking? Sandy From fawkacs at ozemail.com.au Wed Mar 20 23:22:35 1996 From: fawkacs at ozemail.com.au (Michael Fawke) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:22:35 GMT Subject: Alternate fuel EFI Message-ID: At 08:13 PM 20/3/1996 +1000, you wrote: >Michael, > Tickfords (and/or Ford) DO NOT SELL the Biocom system. The >system Tickfords sells > is a normal mixer type deal. The people who took over Biocom (I can't >remember their name) had to redesign the ECU that Injec did because it >wasn't doing the job. >Ford (Australia) have tested the system at various times and have given >minor support. >I am not trying to give you a hard time however you should get your facts >right before broadcasting stuff that goes all over the world. > > regards, > Mark Boxsell > MRB Design. O.K., we all bow to your greater knowlege.... I saw a TV presentation on this system which I am sure was produced by Ford (the TV presentaion that is). Duncan, a friend of mine, is a close friend of the guy who developed the Inject Box (he only built it to run his Sports Sedan Corolla, so no prizes for complexity. The original development unit is now fitted to Duncan's Corolla). I was talking to Duncan about the direct LPG injection and he told me how Inject were the ones who developed the box for it. No mention of Biocom. When Ford started fitting LPG through Tickfords, I assumed this was the direct injection system, because I am sure that the original TV bit mentioned Tickfords. O.K., I was wrong. BTW, a woman I work with had her Fairlane converted to this system last year (from her description of what they fitted), and one of the 'petrol head' magazines did an article about six months ago on converting to this system and showed pictures of all the steps involved in fitting it. Michael Fawke fawkacs at ozemail.com.au From gmd at tecinfo.com Wed Mar 20 23:51:04 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:51:04 GMT Subject: Stainless steel valves Message-ID: At 09:29 AM 3/20/96 MET, you wrote: > The best currently used valve material is "Inconel", once >used in Bell's X-15 aircraft (or rocket?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Speaking of Inconel, I was considering purchasing some pre-cast alignment fixtures for a #6 oil fired super critical boiler. All vendors of this product agreed that a 50% nickle / 50% chrome alloy would be the most resistant metal to use at a 2,500 F furnace gas temp. I don't know what titanium would cost as a 2" x 4" x 24" rough cast bar but the 50/50 was about $600.00 each. GMD From 72614.557 at compuserve.com Thu Mar 21 00:57:33 1996 From: 72614.557 at compuserve.com (Jim Steck) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:57:33 GMT Subject: 45 DCOE throttle bodies Message-ID: >>The other question is about EFI throttle bodies that match WEBER 45MM DCOE pattern. Are there any production vehicles that use a compatible throttle body, or is there a supplier that sells a such a beast. I have seen some pictured in Hartman's book, but the supplier was'nt clear to me. >>Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks, Tom Leake Electromotive has DCOE type throttle bodies (40, 42, 45, 48, 50 and 55) and fuel rails - I don't have a price sheet on those parts. Electromotive, Inc. 14004-J Willard Road Chantilly, VA 22021 (703) 378-2444 FAX (703) 378-2448 TWM also has DCOE type throttle bodies, though I don't know if they have a 45 TWM Induction 325 Rutherford Street Goleta, CA 93117 (800) 331-4865 FAX (805) 683-6640 -Jim Steck From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Thu Mar 21 00:58:40 1996 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:58:40 GMT Subject: Stainless steel valves Message-ID: >I think you mean Titan-nitrid coated (once seen in a Harley sportster) >They have a golden-looking finish. Titanium Nitride is wear resistant coating now commonly found on cutting tools, etc. It is quite a thin coating, really. Stellite (cobalt based alloy) is an alloy more commonly used for valve seat faces. > The best currently used valve material is "Inconel", once >used in Bell's X-15 aircraft (or rocket?) >to resist air-friction at Mach 23 and more. It is temperatur stabil >up to 1200 C.(I hope I remember right). Today they use it for >race car exthaust-pipes and big-diesel valves. It contains more >then 50% of nichel. (Our metallurgist would know exact values?) Inconel is actually a brand name for a range of Nickel based 'super alloys' (eg Inconel 718), but there are also iron and cobalt based super alloys (examples being Incoloy 800 and Stellite 6B respectively). 1200C is right at the upper limit for the conventional super alloys and at these temperatures no significant load could be carried. Generally, 950C is regarded as the upper limit for load carrying applications. These materials form the bulk for application in aircraft gas turbine hot end components (eg combustion cans, turbine blades, etc.). These materials are *very* expensive and their use in ICE's of any description would be rare to say the least (the Stellite application to valves is the only one I can think of). >TiN-coating a valve has similar functions as hard chroming. In the sense that it is basically a coating for wear resistance, yes. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From markus at cabler.cableregina.com Thu Mar 21 04:21:08 1996 From: markus at cabler.cableregina.com (Markus Lien) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 04:21:08 GMT Subject: Alternate fuel EFI Message-ID: >What the heck kind of a mixer is this? Thought I'd seen em all... Vialle mixer, my description of it is a little slanted as I am offended that I actually puchaced such a poor system. >All propane mixers suck! I haven't found one yet that does a decent job >of it. Tried Impco, OHG, and now I'm running a Century mixer, on my 350 I first came in contact with this TechnoCarb company because the manufactuer a fantastic mixer. Their design uses the throttle plate from a Quadrajet carb and places it under a set of 4 large diameter anterior vented (not positive about the terminology) verturi. this system is incredibly accurate but I would be suprised if it even flows 450 CFM :-( on my 383 power flattens out at about 2500 RPM. Part number I used 4SS350 > >> I eventually came across (I'll call it an Electronic fuel control >> system) from a company called Technocarb. This system uses an O2 > >I'd be interested in some more details on this system, costs, who sells >it, etc. > John Carter is the founder and head engineer at Technocarb (604) 854-6264 I believe they have an 800 number now but I can't find it. John is very easy to talk to and eager to chat about projects and ideas (wonder if he has an E-mail account ;-)). They refer to their system as a "feed back" system refering to the fact it uses an O2 sensor to monitor AFR. Part number I used is EFS-400P. They build a TPS emulator for 75 bucks but it just uses RPM, therefore resulting in bad throttle response. I just mounted a TPS on my throttle plate and built a regulated 5 volt power supply to feed it. Throttle response is incredible! > >Damn, 18 MPG is just a dream with me, my engine gives about 12 around >the city... > I cheat! Low rear-end gearing boosts arount town mileage, adding an overdrive trans doubled my highway from 9 to 18. > BTW, you can buy rebuild kits for the vaporizer for around 30 >bucks, beats hell out of buying a new one. Piece of cake to install, too. > You guys with your Empco vaporizers! I'm green with envy, Vialle dosn't want anyone to open their evaporators. >The current idea I'm working on is to use the fuel in the gaseous state, >using half a standard vaporizer, (remove the fuel pressure regulator guts) >and regulating it with a standard gas regulator to somewhere around 50-60 >PSI (maybe higher). Feed this into a standard dual TBI type injector, and >see what happens. The higher-than-normal fuel pressure should allow the >injector to supply enough fuel (even though it's designed for liquid fuel) >but not so high as to affect the opening time. > I see my description of my Technocarb system was weak. what you have described here is very much a Vialle evaporator coupled with the Technocarb feedback control system! the electronically controlled power screw functions the way the TBI would with your plan. Rather than holding back a positive presure from the vaporizer it just restricts vacuum from the mixer. Maybe you have comeup with the improvement I need in my system! the Vialle evap could very easily be modified to supply a positive presure to the power screw. A couple of PSI would be sufficient as the power screw can open to a .75" orifice. I could then replace the mixer with something which simply mixes the air and vapor rather than generating a vacuum signal >> The engine is a 350 stroked to 383 using Kieth Black silv-o-lite > >Yeah, when my 350 bites it I'd like to go with a 383 conversion... > The 383 is a torque factory! real fat till the tiny mixer chokes the thing out! Not cheap though, my engine builder went all out, Stainless valves, Competition Cams propane performance cam, shaved heads and used the long connecting rods with the low deck KB pistons. $3400 and I wrote a piece software for capturing data from his dyno and located 3 extra 400 crankshafts. Add to this the money I've poured into fuel systems and I think I should have bought a multport 350 from a wrecked Z-28 ;-) !! > Propane should be the fuel of choice, at least here in Canada, >an' it's CHEEP! I been running it for years, and bitching about the lack Yea! except here in Saskatchewan where the ^%$^%$*#(*&*@ retailers are price fixing, propane has the same taxes here as Alberta but I'm paying $0.40 / Litre! (Ranting, Raving, Stomping) Markus From markus at cabler.cableregina.com Thu Mar 21 04:21:21 1996 From: markus at cabler.cableregina.com (Markus Lien) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 04:21:21 GMT Subject: Help with Torque converter lockup controller /Weber type Message-ID: > When I installed the unit I discussed the lockup with a Mechanic who > indicated that it would not hurt the trans to leave the TQ "unlocked up". >I have since found from a transmission specialist that this is not true of > this transmission. I am not familliar with the dodge equipment but the GM T700 R4 (overdrive trans) increases the oil flow through the trans cooler while the lockup is engaged. >I can use a manual lockup switch, but since my wife drives the vehicle > also and does not want to bother with details I need a more automated > method. Is anyone aware of a dedicated lockup controller (not part of a > complete Engine management system). I opted for the switch on the dash but did come across a factory system from GM used on the first couple of years that the T700 was available in a pickup. This system is simply a vacuum switch and (I think) a WOT switch. I did not chase this down much because I was comfortable with a toggle switch But if you find a good parts counter guy he will be able to help you out. I believe the year this was used was around '85 or '86. Overdrive tranny's really perk up the vintage iron! Markus From CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com Thu Mar 21 04:50:35 1996 From: CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com (Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 04:50:35 GMT Subject: BLACKBIRD Message-ID: >"Someone wrote about titanium valves.I think you mean >Titan-nitrid coated (once seen in a Harley sportster) They >have a golden-looking finish. The best currently used valve >material is Inconel..." > >No, we have run real titanium valves. Be careful with the word >'best'. Inconel isn't light like titanium and therefore usuited >for high rpm use. I don't remember the properties of Ti either, > except to say that it was strong enough for the Blackbird. >That said, it's funny how that plane leaked fuel until skin >warmed up... > >Ed Hernandez >Ford Motor Company >ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com About the Blackbird leaking, the skin of the aircraft (it has wet tanks) was made with super thin slits in them. When the airframe heated up at speed, the titanium expanded and forced these slits closed. Without them, the skin would buckle at high temperature. You have to admit, it takes balls to design a plane with holes in the fuel tank! Clint ccorbin at intel7.intel.com From CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com Thu Mar 21 05:24:22 1996 From: CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com (Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 05:24:22 GMT Subject: Stainless steel valves/titanium valves Message-ID: >Someone wrote about titanium valves. >I think you mean Titan-nitrid coated (once seen in a Harley sportster) Nope, they mean TITANIUM valves. They are extremely light weight and have a very high temperature resistance (the reason the SR-71 was made out of it) > The best currently used valve material is "Inconel", once >used in Bell's X-15 aircraft (or rocket?) >to resist air-friction at Mach 23 and more. It is temperatur stabil I don't know what the best current valve material is (personally, I would like to see popet valves go the way of the flat-head engines), but the X-15 only ran in the Mach 6 to Mach 7 range. Currently, there is no (that "they" are talking about) AIRCRAFT that can go Mach 23. All of the spacecraft pass through Mach 23 on the way to orbit, but they are not aircraft. And, they do not spend much time at speed in air. NASA was working on the X-30 (or is it the X-31?) Mach 25 aircraft, but the material problems were killing them. Don't know what happened to that project. Sorry this was so far off base. Clint ccorbin at intel7.intel.com From reh5 at Lehigh.EDU Thu Mar 21 06:22:18 1996 From: reh5 at Lehigh.EDU (Russ Highton Jr.) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 06:22:18 GMT Subject: BMW 323 Injection Message-ID: At 09:43 AM 3/20/96 -0500, you wrote: >This is a change of pace for me, I just got a 1980 BMW 323i Alpina with a >great 2.3L 6 cylinder! One problem with it however, is that the idle is >unstable. It will 'motor boat' up and down, usually stalling out. Other >times it is stable. I haven't as yet found out much about the system, I >think it is a bosch j-tronic, it is all mechanical, fuel distributer, etc. >Any ideas where to start looking? > >Sandy > > > I don't know exactly what is wrong with your car, but if you run it by the guys on the BMW digest mailing list(email me if you want info its great) they will surely be able to help. Russ Highton Jr. reh5 at lehigh.edu 1982 320i 55k From Talltom at teleport.com Thu Mar 21 12:15:38 1996 From: Talltom at teleport.com (Talltom) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:15:38 GMT Subject: thermal effects of combustion chamber Message-ID: One last try. Looking for somebody to bite on the discussion of aluminum pistons, valves, ceramic piston tops or coatings with respect to fuel and ignition requirements. I have an 84 jag with aluminum heads, 11.5-1 compression(factory) that went thru emmissions with 20 hydrocarbons and no CO. It's a completly stock v-12, and a dog. It does not ping on regular fuel. I have a 54 cornbinder with a turbocharged 500 cadilac eng. that pings on the same fuel at 9in. vacuum(it idles at 12) Cadilacs have been famous for being detonators but the combustion chamber looks reasonable to me.(Reassuring huh?) Yes I've played all the timing games. My question is could the difference in thermal conductivity between aluminum and cast iron and or inadequate coolant circulation in the heads be the cause? If heads have hot spots does anybody with an oz or two more IQ than me have any suggestions as to how to eleviate the problem? Yes I have thought of making like a canibal and drilling out the coolant holes in the bottom of the headgasket, but this seems just a little to close to neanderthal for me even. I would like to modify the cooling somehow so that it could take a 30 minute full throttle blast.(without nitrous) P.S. For you guys complaining about 12 mpg, I've got a 5.00-1 diff, and 27" tires behind a turboed 500 caddy, without an overdrive tranny. I'd be elated to bring it up to 6. From 72614.557 at compuserve.com Thu Mar 21 12:49:49 1996 From: 72614.557 at compuserve.com (Jim Steck) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:49:49 GMT Subject: Blackbird Message-ID: >About the Blackbird leaking, the skin of the aircraft (it has wet tanks) >was made with super thin slits in them. When the airframe heated up at >speed, the titanium expanded and forced these slits closed. Without them, >the skin would buckle at high temperature. You have to admit, it takes >balls to design a plane with holes in the fuel tank! Am I correct that the fuel was more of a jelly than a liquid? -Jim Steck From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Thu Mar 21 14:44:35 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:44:35 GMT Subject: BMW 323 Injection Message-ID: Hi Sandy One of the features of the L-Jetronic EFIs is that if the rpm are higher than 1500 when the trottle is closed (idle) then the fuel is cut off. This presents a problem if the idle is set too high. If the idle is set too high, the engine will rev up to about 1500, cut out, and then come back on at about 500-600 rpm. This will keep up all day until the trottle is opened slightly. This is especially annoying when trying to get started with a manual transmission. If you engage the clutch as the fuel is cut out, the engine dies. ...this is only one of many possibilities or course....but it's worth a try Werner ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: BMW 323 Injection Author: Non-HP-owner-diy-efi (owner-diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/20/96 7:43 AM This is a change of pace for me, I just got a 1980 BMW 323i Alpina with a great 2.3L 6 cylinder! One problem with it however, is that the idle is unstable. It will 'motor boat' up and down, usually stalling out. Other times it is stable. I haven't as yet found out much about the system, I think it is a bosch j-tronic, it is all mechanical, fuel distributer, etc. Any ideas where to start looking? Sandy From kking at HiWAAY.net Thu Mar 21 15:10:12 1996 From: kking at HiWAAY.net (Kenneth C. King) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:10:12 GMT Subject: Blackbird Message-ID: ]>About the Blackbird leaking, the skin of the aircraft (it has wet tanks) ]>was made with super thin slits in them. When the airframe heated up at ]>speed, the titanium expanded and forced these slits closed. Without them, ]>the skin would buckle at high temperature. You have to admit, it takes ]>balls to design a plane with holes in the fuel tank! ] ]Am I correct that the fuel was more of a jelly than a liquid? ] ]-Jim Steck greetings: my understanding was that the blackbird's *real* fuel was a jel at normal (for people) temperatures. i believe they used another (more liquid) fuel to get it rolling. the thinner fuel combined with the cold (and contracted) skin lead to the worst of the leaks. once at a 'reasonable' altitude, a big tanker would feed the bird the jel (preheated for flow?). this reduced the bird's takeoff weight and allowed the hot skins to be cooled by the fuel. once the plane was up to speed, the skin would expand and seal all the fuel in before too much could leak out. later, kc -- "ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 "he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc From ehernan3 at ford.com Thu Mar 21 17:19:44 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:19:44 GMT Subject: thermal effects of combustion chamber Message-ID: "Looking for somebody to bite on the discussion of aluminum pistons, valves, ceramic piston tops or coatings with respect to fuel and ignition requirements....500 Caddy vs '84 Jag V12" There are lots of reasons why the Caddy and the Jag react differently to the same fuel inspite of the Jag's higher compression: 1) The Jag is a 5.3L V12 while the Caddy is a whopping 8.2L V8. That means that each cylinder of the Jag is less than HALF the size of the Caddy. At equal burn rates, the Jag is much more likely to finish combustion before the end gas detonates than the Caddy. That said, I would venture an educated guess that the Jag chambers burn faster than the Caddy's, giving it another advantage. 2) Al has 3 three time the thermal conductivity of Fe. Therefore, you can run higher compression since Al heads will absorb more heat of compression than Fe. Incidentally, this heat gets transferred to the coolant, sent to the radiator and dumped to atmosphere INSTEAD of turning the wheels, so the only way to win with Al is to run higher compression. 3) Al has about twice the specific heat of Fe. Therefore, Fe heads are more susceptible to developing and maintaining hot spots than Al. If you'd like, you can polish the Caddy's combustion chambers to help, but I'm not sure you'd notice the difference. 4) You didn't mention the use of an intercooler, so assuming you don't have one, you've just raised the charge air temp before any compression takes place in the cylinders. See how this all stacks up against the Caddy? One way to take advantage of Fe is to run lower coolant temps. I wouldn't play with improving coolant circualtion in the heads unless you know where the problems are and how to fix them. It's easy to make it worse if you're guessing. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From fparker at umich.edu Thu Mar 21 17:55:06 1996 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank Parker) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:55:06 GMT Subject: thermal effects of combustion chamber Message-ID: > inadequate coolant circulation in the heads be the cause? If heads have hot > spots > does anybody with an oz or two more IQ than me have any suggestions as to > how to eleviate the problem? Yes I have thought of making like a canibal and > drilling out > the coolant holes in the bottom of the headgasket, but this seems just a > little to > close to neanderthal for me even. I would like to modify the cooling somehow > so that > it could take a 30 minute full throttle blast.(without nitrous) What is your timing on cad?? Probably way too aggressive. Do you have any sort of boost retard?? Best would be to replace stock ign with J&S knock retard system which is closed loop and usues Bosch sensor with DSP electronics to retard is hears knock. I use on turbo vtec engine @ 9.25 c/r with 8psi intercooled without any ping. Yes, alum heads help alot. > > From gtk110 at psu.edu Thu Mar 21 18:54:08 1996 From: gtk110 at psu.edu (gtk110 at psu.edu) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:54:08 GMT Subject: Blackbird Message-ID: >"ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life >with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you >tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 >"he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc > What the heck is this stuff??????..Please explain..is the soup made of LPG? and is "jim" the star trek jim? From gtk110 at psu.edu Thu Mar 21 18:54:22 1996 From: gtk110 at psu.edu (gtk110 at psu.edu) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:54:22 GMT Subject: Blackbird Message-ID: >"ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life >with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you >tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 >"he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc > What the heck does this mean...Ist the soup made of LPG anddoes it have a mixer???? is "jim" the Captain James T. Kirk of the Enterprise??? anyway.. Now that I am new to this list, and have viewed it for the last couple of days, I finally have something to add I remember reading an article on natural gas injection that was put in a 302cid Ford Mustang which, incidentally, utilized the FACTORY ECU. I think it was the April??(don't quote me on this) '95 issue of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords.... I also recall that the stated octane rating of the gas is 130....could anybody verify this, and if so, why not run a 10:1 compression, bump the timing up a little, and run 10 psi of boost???(can't do that with gasoline). This seems to be a logical alternative to gasoline. What's the cumbustion potential as compared with that of gasoline. It's a shame that such a useful petroleum product is usually burned of at the oil well.....Forgive me if these questions seem stupid...I'm only 20 yr old junior at Penn State majoring in Mechanical engineering and I hav'nt had the thermal engineering or heat transfer classes yet... Gannon Kupko gtk110 at email.psu.edu From mcmansp2 at u.washington.edu Thu Mar 21 19:01:16 1996 From: mcmansp2 at u.washington.edu (S. McManus) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 19:01:16 GMT Subject: BMW 323 Injection Message-ID: If it's all mechanical, that's K-jet (CIS). My '79 320i did exactly the same thing, extremely annoying. The fix for my car was to set the idle mixture to factory specs using an exhaust gas analyzer. First check for vacuum leaks, also pull the boot on the air flow meter and make sure the plate is centered (that's a fun one). Sean McManus On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Sandy wrote: > This is a change of pace for me, I just got a 1980 BMW 323i Alpina with a > great 2.3L 6 cylinder! One problem with it however, is that the idle is > unstable. It will 'motor boat' up and down, usually stalling out. Other > times it is stable. I haven't as yet found out much about the system, I > think it is a bosch j-tronic, it is all mechanical, fuel distributer, etc. > Any ideas where to start looking? > > Sandy > > > From n9540517 at henson.cc.wwu.edu Thu Mar 21 23:29:59 1996 From: n9540517 at henson.cc.wwu.edu (Seth Allen) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 23:29:59 GMT Subject: BMW 323 Injection Message-ID: The early K-Jetronics have a slightly unstable idle, and you have a gray markett car if you are in the US. Check all the ignition parts, and do a tune up, and check for vacuum leaks. This is the same system that was on VW Rabbits. People think that the FI messes things up, and start to fiddle. Usually the problem is a small maintenance issue. The basic idle setting is not elegant, but it works. Seth Allen, Owner of more CIS VWs than I care to admit. > Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:22:11 -0500 > From: Russ Highton Jr. > To: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: BMW 323 Injection > > At 09:43 AM 3/20/96 -0500, you wrote: > >This is a change of pace for me, I just got a 1980 BMW 323i Alpina with a > >great 2.3L 6 cylinder! One problem with it however, is that the idle is > >unstable. It will 'motor boat' up and down, usually stalling out. Other > >times it is stable. I haven't as yet found out much about the system, I > >think it is a bosch j-tronic, it is all mechanical, fuel distributer, etc. > >Any ideas where to start looking? > > > >Sandy > > > > > > > > I don't know exactly what is wrong with your car, but if you run it > by the guys on the BMW digest mailing list(email me if you want info its > great) they will surely be able to help. > Russ Highton Jr. > reh5 at lehigh.edu > 1982 320i 55k > > From Bohdan.L.Bodnar at att.com Thu Mar 21 23:47:55 1996 From: Bohdan.L.Bodnar at att.com (Bohdan.L.Bodnar at att.com) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 23:47:55 GMT Subject: BMW 323 Injection Message-ID: And, if the system is KE-Jetronic, setting the air/fuel mixture to the correct value merely requires a high impedance dwell meter. Connect the meter across the fuel pressure controling "injector" (for lack of a better term) and set the a/f mixture for a 50% average duty cycle (e.g., on 6 cylinders setting, adjust mixture for average reading of 30 degrees). Regards, Bohdan Bodnar From sandyg at interramp.com Thu Mar 21 23:50:35 1996 From: sandyg at interramp.com (Sandy) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 23:50:35 GMT Subject: BMW 323 Injection Message-ID: At 11:01 AM 3/21/96 -0800, you wrote: I'll be getting into it soon, that a good tip. Something odd, I found the wire to the O2 sensor disconnected just now, and will try reconnecting that an see if it helps. The odd thing is that I can guess what an O2 sensor function is with a mechanical injection???? Thanks again Sandy >If it's all mechanical, that's K-jet (CIS). My '79 320i did exactly the From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Fri Mar 22 00:45:50 1996 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 00:45:50 GMT Subject: Blackbird Message-ID: > I also recall that the stated octane rating of the gas is >130....could anybody verify this, and if so, why not run a 10:1 compression, I understood the RON for LPG was in the 105-110 range, or about the same as avgas >bump the timing up a little, and run 10 psi of boost???(can't do that with >gasoline). This seems to be a logical alternative to gasoline. What's the Certainly if you are running straight LPG with its higher octane rating, there would be great benefit from boosting the CR and having more suitable cam timeing. In Oz the vast majority of conversions are 'dual-fuel' meaning that you retain the petrol option. This made sense when LPG conversions were something of a novelty, but these days it has wide acceptance and there are now many, many LPG outlets - especially in the urban areas. In fact the local LPG associations don't recommend dual fuel conversions because of the 'compromise' tuning requirements which reduces efficiency on both fuels, but most people still appear to want the 'peace-of-mind' of having the petrol option. >cumbustion potential as compared with that of gasoline. It's a shame that >such a useful petroleum product is usually burned of at the oil... No argument there Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From markus at cabler.cableregina.com Fri Mar 22 07:24:24 1996 From: markus at cabler.cableregina.com (Markus Lien) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 07:24:24 GMT Subject: Blackbird Message-ID: > I remember reading an article on natural gas injection that was put >in a 302cid Ford Mustang which, incidentally, utilized the FACTORY ECU. I >think it was the April??(don't quote me on this) '95 issue of Muscle >Mustangs and Fast Fords.... I talked to a fellow who used a bone stock 350 chevy with TBI and the stock ECU and connected the LPG fuel line to it and it ran!! after about 10 minutes the manifold plugged with ice, a port injection may have the advantage of simply consuming any ice particles. > I also recall that the stated octane rating of the gas is >130....could anybody verify this, and if so, why not run a 10:1 compression, >bump the timing up a little, and run 10 psi of boost???(can't do that with >gasoline). This seems to be a logical alternative to gasoline. What's the >cumbustion potential as compared with that of gasoline. It's a shame that >such a useful petroleum product is usually burned of at the oil I am running a 350 chev stroked to 383 with shaved 64cc heads, should yield about 11:1 compression on propane and only have problems if I get stupid with timing. I am also running a cam which conserves cylinder pressure at low RPM. I read in a subsequent message that single fuel is a better option, STRONGLY agree, I doubt if my engine would run on pump gas without a knock sensor and an electronic distributor. >well.....Forgive me if these questions seem stupid...I'm only 20 yr old >junior at Penn State majoring in Mechanical engineering and I hav'nt had the >thermal engineering or heat transfer classes yet... > Gannon Kupko > gtk110 at email.psu.edu > no stupid questions, only un-answered ones! Markus From steveb at newkla.kla.com Fri Mar 22 14:47:47 1996 From: steveb at newkla.kla.com (steveb at newkla.kla.com) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:47:47 GMT Subject: Blackbird Message-ID: WRT SR-71 and it's fuel ... It turns out that there aren't deliberate holes in the SR-71's fuel tanks per se, the designers simply decided to use the wing surfaces as the con- tainers for the fuel rather than having separate tanks. Since the mater- ials expand under temperature they were actually designed to slide relative to each other as the individual pieces expanded. This allowed expansion of the pieces without changing the shape of the airfoil. The reason the tanks leaked is that fuel could seep between the sliding joints when the surfaces were cold. The fuel for the SR-71 is a form of kerosene, not any kind of gelatinous material. The interesting feature of the fuel (JP-8) is that it is actually very difficult to get it to burn! I've seen demonstrations where a lit match was tossed into a container of JP-8; the match was actually extin- guished by the fuel and vapors. To start the engine or light the after- burners it is necessary to inject tri-ethyl borane (TEB) into the engine. I think the TEB is a hypergolic material, which establishes a high enough temperature to support burning of the JP-8. It is actually interesting to watch an SR-71 motor start because the TEB injection causes a green flash in the engine. I guess that jet engines employ fuel injection, probably not DIY though :) but to bring the subject back toward automotive powerplants ... I went up to Beale AFB for an open-house when the SR's were active up there. As I was walking amongst the jets on the tarmac I heard a sweet-sounding V-8 on cam. I had noticed that there was a group of '50's american cars up ahead so I thought it was one of them. It turned out that I was wrong ... to spin the engines of the SR to the point where they could start they had built an APU that was built from a pair of Buick small-blocks, coupled together through turbo-hydramatic trannies, which would then connect to the shaft that spins the turbine/compressor shaft of the jet engine. They had really tricked the motors with all kinds of chrome and performance goodies. Ah, to get paid for doing your hobby ... :-) I hope that this slightly off-topic discussion doesn't bother too many of you, but you touched on one of my favorite subjects ... betcha couldn't tell! Steve Buchholz s_buchho at kla.com San Jose, CA (USA) From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Fri Mar 22 17:44:24 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (Darrell Norquay) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:44:24 GMT Subject: ignore this message Message-ID: I thought I told ya to ignore this! Just testing my mail system... pretty dead out there if it is working... dn -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Voice: (403) 243-2220 Calgary, Alberta, Canada Fax: (403) 243-2872 "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete ----------------------------------------------------------------- From grantb at nait.ab.ca Fri Mar 22 21:34:09 1996 From: grantb at nait.ab.ca (Grant Beattie) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:34:09 GMT Subject: Team SAE Edmonton Message-ID: A loosely related item: Edmonton, AB - Team SAE meeting Monday, March 25, 1996. Time 5:00pm - 6:00pm at Northern Alberta Institute of Technology, 11762 - 106 Street, Room A135. GB From fawkacs at ozemail.com.au Sat Mar 23 00:04:32 1996 From: fawkacs at ozemail.com.au (Michael Fawke) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:04:32 GMT Subject: Alternate fuel EFI Message-ID: The name of the company is 'Liquiphase', Australia 08 345 3500. Cost for a 6 Cyl Falcon is $2500 Aus, and they are working on a version for the Holden/Buick V6 engine. Michael Fawke fawkacs at ozemail.com.au From masmith089 at QNET.COM Sat Mar 23 02:45:44 1996 From: masmith089 at QNET.COM (masmith) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 02:45:44 GMT Subject: Stainless steel valves Message-ID: At 11:58 AM 3/21/96 +1100, you wrote: >> The best currently used valve material is "Inconel", once >>used in Bell's X-15 aircraft (or rocket?) >Inconel is actually a brand name for a range of Nickel based 'super alloys' >(eg Inconel 718), but there are also iron and cobalt based super alloys >(examples being Incoloy 800 and Stellite 6B respectively). 1200C is right >at the upper limit for the conventional super alloys and at these >temperatures no significant load could be carried. Generally, 950C is >regarded as the upper limit for load carrying applications. the Space Shuttlle Main Engine is about 80% Inconel alloys. I am not sure if Hydrogen embrittlement is a problem with any of you (does anyone do Hydrogen injection) but you have to watch out for it with inconels. (i am honestly not sure if it's only a cryogenic or high temp problem metallurgy is not my expertise) Matt Smith masmith089 at qnet.com Mailer Eudora 1.5.2 From colec at pr.erau.edu Sat Mar 23 20:45:30 1996 From: colec at pr.erau.edu (Corey Cole) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:45:30 GMT Subject: thermal effects of combustion chamber Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Edward Hernandez wrote: > > 1) The Jag is a 5.3L V12 while the Caddy is a whopping 8.2L V8. That > means that each cylinder of the Jag is less than HALF the size of the > Caddy. At equal burn rates, the Jag is much more likely to finish > combustion before the end gas detonates than the Caddy. That said, I > would venture an educated guess that the Jag chambers burn faster than > the Caddy's, giving it another advantage. I'm pretty sure that the Jag V-12 uses a "May" combustion chamber designed for ultrafast (real technical term there...ultrafast) combustion. It allowed the Jag engineers to go with sky-high (yet another technical term) compression ratios while still meeting emissions targets. For info on the May combustion chamber, check out Richard Stone's book "Introduction to the Internal Combustion Engine". There are three case studies on engine design, and the Jag V-12 happens to be one of them. Corey Cole colec at pr.erau.edu '65 Skylark "Knowledge is power...but cubic inches help." Go #24!!!!! I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison and I went to pick her up in the rain. But before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, she got runned over by the darned old train... David Allen Coe Steve Goodman From colec at pr.erau.edu Sat Mar 23 21:03:36 1996 From: colec at pr.erau.edu (Corey Cole) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:03:36 GMT Subject: Blackbird Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Mar 1996 steveb at newkla.kla.com wrote: > WRT SR-71 and it's fuel ... > > on cam. I had noticed that there was a group of '50's american cars up > ahead so I thought it was one of them. It turned out that I was wrong ... > to spin the engines of the SR to the point where they could start they had > built an APU that was built from a pair of Buick small-blocks, coupled > together through turbo-hydramatic trannies, which would then connect to > the shaft that spins the turbine/compressor shaft of the jet engine. They > had really tricked the motors with all kinds of chrome and performance > goodies. Not to quibble, but I've seen that particular card in a book...Them are Nailhead 425s, not small blocks...As a Buick fanatic, I try to keep up with every use these engines get. Corey Cole colec at pr.erau.edu '65 Skylark "Knowledge is power...but cubic inches help." Go #24!!!!! I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison and I went to pick her up in the rain. But before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, she got runned over by the darned old train... David Allen Coe Steve Goodman From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Sun Mar 24 15:29:22 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (Darrell Norquay) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:29:22 GMT Subject: CNG/LNG Message-ID: > I remember reading an article on natural gas injection that was put > in a 302cid Ford Mustang which, incidentally, utilized the FACTORY ECU. I > I also recall that the stated octane rating of the gas is > 130....could anybody verify this, and if so, why not run a 10:1 compression, > bump the timing up a little, and run 10 psi of boost???(can't do that with Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) does have an octane rating somewhere near to 130 - you can run 25 degrees initial advance, and upwards of 35 total. It's cheap, (at least here in Canada), and it has VERY low emissions. Having said that, it is stored in tanks at up to 3000 PSI, which means they are big, heavy, and they don't hold much fuel. Typically, range is very limited. It's hard to find fuelling stations, (getting a bit easier) and it takes half an hour to fill up. Plumbing and installation is very expensive, all stainless hard tubing (no hoses allowed). Doesn't have as high a specific energy rating (per lb) as gasoline, making fuel consumption much higher. All in all rather impractical for a street vehicle. There's no reason you can't run turbos and high compression with CNG, it's just that nobody does... (Taxis, couriers, etc use it somewhat, and our local gas company's service vehicles are all CNG - it figures) Propane (LPG), however, has a pretty good octane rating(110-115), is also cheap, clean, and the tanks and plumbing are much lighter and less costly since you only have to deal with a couple of hundred PSI. Tanks also hold more fuel since it is in a liquid state instead of a gas, and you can get it anywhere. Ideal fuel for use with turbos and superchargers. All in all IT IS a good fuel for a street/high performance vehicle. Both fuels promote long engine life because of the cleaner combustion and the fact that these fuels are not solvents like gasoline and don't wash the lubricating oils off cylinder walls and valve guides, etc, thus prolonging their life substantially. Half a million miles is not too unusual between rebuilds on a propane engine, if it was built specifically for propane in the first place... There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers... regards dn -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Voice: (403) 243-2220 Calgary, Alberta, Canada Fax: (403) 243-2872 "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete ----------------------------------------------------------------- From arthurok at ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 25 03:35:17 1996 From: arthurok at ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 03:35:17 GMT Subject: CNG/LNG Message-ID: natural gas is a great fuel for standby generators From r.dingli at ee.mu.OZ.AU Mon Mar 25 05:32:47 1996 From: r.dingli at ee.mu.OZ.AU (robert dingli) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 05:32:47 GMT Subject: CNG/LNG Message-ID: > > natural gas is a great fuel for standby generators > While on the topic of CNG/LPG... There is a fleet of port injected CNG taxis running around in Brisbane, Australia as well as some in New Zealand. For our single fuel application, the compression ratio was raised from about 9:1 to well over 15:1, and the resulting peak efficiency increased from about 30% to over 40%. Natural gas in Melbourne is relatively consistent (but not available in CNG form) with a RON of 140-142. In Brisbane and NZ the methane ratio can be as low as 90% lowering the RON to about 130. To test various methane / propane ratios, we recently installed a second set of gas injectors with an adjustable pulsewidth proportional to the base injector pulse from the Ford EECV ECU. Could this be the ultimate dual fuel combination? The project was set back a little last week when the dyno drive shaft flex coupling decided to let go and hurl itself through the bell housing and steel safety cover, across the lab, through a window and into the car park onto an unoccupied Nissan. Luckily no one was hurt, but the mechanical casaulties include the drive shaft, engine crankshaft, dyno shaft, bell housing (now lots of little pieces of aluminium) and safety cover. LPG in Australia can have as much as 50% butane which lowers the octane rating to just under 100. Unfortunately this is little better than the leaded fuel that about half the cars on our roads still use. rambling on... Robert -- Robert Dingli r.dingli at ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** From u933234 at student.canberra.edu.au Mon Mar 25 07:49:48 1996 From: u933234 at student.canberra.edu.au (Bruno!) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:49:48 GMT Subject: LPG injection Message-ID: A couple of you have mentioned that when propane (lpg) is injected into the manifold, the manifold soon freezes. What about circulating engine coolant around the base of the manifold where the injectors are mounted? i.e. possibly by running another line from coolant system, in a similar way a car's interior heater works, or having another water system which runs across the exhaust, pumped by an electric pump, temperature regulated by pump speed, fan, etc. The latter system i was thinking of using for a hot water demisting system for when the going gets cold. Bruno. ( u933234 at student.canberra.edu.au ) "If you've gotta go, go with a smile" From ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com Mon Mar 25 13:42:48 1996 From: ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com (ducharme at eiss1.psf.ge.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:42:48 GMT Subject: Injectors Message-ID: Does anyone have any flow rate information on various injectors (by part #, make/model/engine application) it doesn't appear to be the kind of thing available at the local auto parts store. The EFI Briggs & Stratton LIVES! I fired it up on EFI last night under manual control of the pulse width, and ran it for about 10 minutes. The MC68HC11 and signal conditioning circuits are funtioning properly. I'm a happy guy. It does appear that another injector might be more appropriate, as the one installed now is far too big flowwise. As it is, I'm only running about 10 PSI and the pulse widths are down in the 3-6 ms range. The strange thing about the injector is that the nozzle is plastic with a large (approximately .080" diameter) straight orifice, and squirts a collinear stream, not a spray... I've considered reworking the orifice to reduce flow/generate a conical spray. Anyone have any suggestions? Cliff Ducharme From fcmefi at fishnet.net Mon Mar 25 15:52:02 1996 From: fcmefi at fishnet.net (Fred Miranda) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:52:02 GMT Subject: Injectors Message-ID: >As it is, I'm only running about 10 PSI >and the pulse widths are down in the 3-6 ms range. The strange thing about the >injector is that the nozzle is plastic with a large (approximately .080" >diameter) straight orifice, and squirts a collinear stream, not a spray... it needs more pressure to form a spray if you have a decent injector don't wory too much about pulse widths down around the 1.5 ms range, I use 400cc/min injectors on my 323, and the pulse width at cruise is around 1.1-1.25ms in closed loop. Fred From gtk110 at psu.edu Mon Mar 25 17:30:09 1996 From: gtk110 at psu.edu (gtk110 at psu.edu) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:30:09 GMT Subject: LPG injection Message-ID: > >A couple of you have mentioned that when propane (lpg) is injected into >the manifold, the manifold soon freezes. What about circulating engine >coolant around the base of the manifold where the injectors are mounted? >i.e. possibly by running another line from coolant system, in a similar >way a car's interior heater works, or having another water system which >runs across the exhaust, pumped by an electric pump, temperature regulated >by pump speed, fan, etc. The latter system i was thinking of using for a >hot water demisting system for when the going gets cold. Just by reading this over, I like the idea of using the exhaust to warm the injectors, but i would not use water due to the localized boiling that may occur at the interface of the water/metal exhaust barrier. There would also be a great amount of pressure generated with plain water....I wonder if some type of oil would be any better. You could also impliment some type of thermostat to ensure that the injectors did not become too hot....Just some thoughts...any ideas anyone? Gannon gtk110 at email.psu.edu From n9540517 at henson.cc.wwu.edu Mon Mar 25 17:58:09 1996 From: n9540517 at henson.cc.wwu.edu (Seth Allen) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:58:09 GMT Subject: CNG/LNG Message-ID: Hi all, I am a student at Western Washington University's Vehicle Research Institute. I joined this mailgroup to hopefully learn how to build an EFI system for gasoline, but the discussion seems to be EFI for gaseous fuels. That's cool too... we have a Chrysler Neon here that runs on CNG. It has a filament wrapped carbon fiber CNG tank. good for 3600 psi maybe 4000, but we don't (can't) pump it that high. It also happens to be an electric hybrid... We ran 14.4:1 compression last year, but NOx emissions were high so we have stock pistons now. Right now we are "fooling" the gasoline EFI brain. It goes tooo rich on full throttle enrichment and displaces air in the intake ports. (We think). A fun idea would be to add Nitrous oxide. Not too practical though. Having trouble with a gasoline O2 sensor on CNG and the heat required to run it. It is a 3 wire O2 sensor, but the preheater isn't enough at idle. We are currently looking for a liquid fuel injection setup for propane for our propane minivan. The current strategy is impco carbs.... Vialle didn't want to donate any propane EFI equipment, and it was unclear that they had an adaptable unit. If anyone has any input or questions, just ask, or tell. Thanks for the bandwidth, Seth Allen WWU, Bellingham WA, USA > > While on the topic of CNG/LPG... > > There is a fleet of port injected CNG taxis running around in Brisbane, > Australia as well as some in New Zealand. For our single fuel application, > the compression ratio was raised from about 9:1 to well over 15:1, and the > resulting peak efficiency increased from about 30% to over 40%. Natural gas > in Melbourne is relatively consistent (but not available in CNG form) with > a RON of 140-142. In Brisbane and NZ the methane ratio can be as low as 90% > lowering the RON to about 130. > > To test various methane / propane ratios, we recently installed a second set > of gas injectors with an adjustable pulsewidth proportional to the base > injector pulse from the Ford EECV ECU. Could this be the ultimate dual fuel > combination? > > The project was set back a little last week when the dyno drive shaft flex > coupling decided to let go and hurl itself through the bell housing and > steel safety cover, across the lab, through a window and into the car park > onto an unoccupied Nissan. Luckily no one was hurt, but the mechanical > casaulties include the drive shaft, engine crankshaft, dyno shaft, > bell housing (now lots of little pieces of aluminium) and safety cover. > > LPG in Australia can have as much as 50% butane which lowers the octane rating > to just under 100. Unfortunately this is little better than the leaded fuel > that about half the cars on our roads still use. > > rambling on... > Robert > > -- > Robert Dingli r.dingli at ee.mu.oz.au > Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 > Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 > University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA > ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** > From kurt.bilinski at GAT.COM Mon Mar 25 21:04:35 1996 From: kurt.bilinski at GAT.COM (Kurt Bilinski) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 21:04:35 GMT Subject: No Subject Message-ID: I'm planning on building a tube frame, carbon fiber, car resembling a Mini Cooper or maybe an R5 Turbo. The drivetrain will be either a Nissan SE-R 2.0l DOHC 140hp or a Honda VTEC Prelude engine (190hp, 2.2liter). Altered factory computers are available aftermarket... for a price. Figure $200 for a used EFI computer, and $700 for the aftermarket mods... and I'm thinking, build my own. How hard could it be... Anyway, I'm new here, I'll have a look around and see what you guys are up to before asking questions. Kurt Bilinski From cyborne at murlin.com Mon Mar 25 22:31:04 1996 From: cyborne at murlin.com (Ryan Harrell) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:31:04 GMT Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system Message-ID: I was wondering if anybody knows if Chevrolet (or any aftermarket vendor) has a multi-port fuel injection system available for a 4.3L V6. I believe there is one, but I have no information on one. If so, does anybody know of a manufacturer who makes computers for these engines (Everybody seems to be obsessed with V8 engines). It would have to be flexible because I plan to take that engine, bore the cylinders to 4 1/8", install 18 degree heads from Chevrolet, and add a nitrus system to my '84 S-10. I'm hoping that this will be cheaper than a $5000 EFI blower system as well as ride better. Ryan Harrell cyborne at murlin.com "Of coarse you know, you could poke your EYE out with that thing." From gmd at tecinfo.com Mon Mar 25 23:54:59 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:54:59 GMT Subject: LPG + low octane pump gas Message-ID: Has any one herd of using low octane pump gas plus LPG or CNG as a possible octane booster? GMD From gmd at tecinfo.com Tue Mar 26 00:31:33 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 00:31:33 GMT Subject: Injectors Message-ID: At 08:47 AM 3/25/96 EST, Cliff Ducharme wrote: > >The EFI Briggs & Stratton LIVES! I fired it up on EFI last night under manual >control of the pulse width, and ran it for about 10 minutes. ============================================================================ ======= Cheers Buddy, there's nothing like slaping a cast aluminium or iron baby on the butt and hearing those first sounds infant machinery. Are you sure that the injector you are using is not fouled? If it's a bendix or bosh, top entry type injector try this: Remove the plastic cap. The injector pintel should be exposed (if it's from a late model car, the pintel might not be exposed). Clean it with old tooth brush and some carb cleaner. Spray inside of the injector while pressing the pintel. I disected a '76 caddy injector once. This was a top feed bendix type. Not difficult at all. I can see lots of problems with trying to machine the orfice without special equipment. If you send me a postage paid self addressed box, I send you a couple of the caddy injectors. I think you would give them a good home. Good luck dude, GMD From wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca Tue Mar 26 01:51:30 1996 From: wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca (wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:51:30 GMT Subject: GM serial line communications Message-ID: At the end of January there was some interest in reading the 8000 baud GM serial data line. I mentioned at the time that we had done this at our lab using an PC serial port. There is some minor circuitry involved in the interface to invert the signals. You also need to set up the serial port for this nonstandard baud rate. I wrote a program to set up a nonstandard baud rate. I am helping someone set up this communication link and I know there were others interested. If anybody else one wants a copy of the program to set up the correct baud rate or some of the source code I can forward the information to them. Perhaps there is a place that I can post this in the DIY EFI archives. Will McGonegal wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca Mobile Sources Emissions Division Environment Canada From n9540517 at henson.cc.wwu.edu Tue Mar 26 02:23:52 1996 From: n9540517 at henson.cc.wwu.edu (Seth Allen) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 02:23:52 GMT Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system Message-ID: The answer is yes.(See below). Haltech makes a system that will drop in and is EEPROM reprogrammmable for maps. Depending on the application, up to 30 psi boost is compatible with the sensors. For GM in particular, it is a plug in set. Between $1000-1600 depending on how many bells and whistles. You can control idle air stepper motors, torque converter lockup and all kinds of neat stuff with enough money. Seth Allen, WWU, WA, USA On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Ryan Harrell wrote: > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:33:48 -0600 > From: Ryan Harrell > To: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system > > I was wondering if anybody knows if Chevrolet (or any aftermarket vendor) has > a multi-port fuel injection system available for a 4.3L V6. I believe there > is one, but I have no information on one. If so, does anybody know of a > manufacturer who makes computers for these engines (Everybody seems to be > obsessed with V8 engines). It would have to be flexible because I plan to > take that engine, bore the cylinders to 4 1/8", install 18 degree heads from > Chevrolet, and add a nitrus system to my '84 S-10. I'm hoping that this will > be cheaper than a $5000 EFI blower system as well as ride better. > > Ryan Harrell > cyborne at murlin.com > > "Of coarse you know, you could poke your EYE out with that thing." > From cmorgan at efn.org Tue Mar 26 02:50:21 1996 From: cmorgan at efn.org (Charles Morgan) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 02:50:21 GMT Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system Message-ID: On 3/25/96 -0600, Ryan Harrell wrote: >I was wondering if anybody knows if Chevrolet (or any aftermarket vendor) has >a multi-port fuel injection system available for a 4.3L V6. I believe there >is one, but I have no information on one. If so, does anybody know of a >manufacturer who makes computers for these engines (Everybody seems to be >obsessed with V8 engines)... The turbocharged 4.3L V6 that Chevy used in the Typhoon/Cyclone models is true multi-port, but getting one of these would be darn near impossible (I've tried). The 4.3L Vortec V6 introduced by Chevy in 1992 is called "Central Multi-Port Fuel Injection" although it uses a single injector with poppet valves at each intake port. It's performance, however, is very adequate. Turbo City (714-997-1196) sells a multi-port kit for non-Vortec 4.3L V6s; I beleive they use a GM computer. Charlie Morgan From 72614.557 at compuserve.com Tue Mar 26 04:30:33 1996 From: 72614.557 at compuserve.com (Jim Steck) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 04:30:33 GMT Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection Message-ID: >I was wondering if anybody knows if Chevrolet (or any aftermarket vendor) >has a multi-port fuel injection system available for a 4.3L V6. Haltech's competition is : Electromotive 14004-J Willard Drive Chantilly, VA 22024 1-800-843-3889 They also use GM sensors. I've built three engines with their TEC systems . . . including two 300 horsepower 2.0 liter turbocharged Alfa Romeos. Their system has been very reliable (no failures in 100,000 cumulative miles) and is very flexible. Prices are similar to Haltech. -Jim Steck AutoComponenti P.S. I want to add water injection to one of the turbos . . . anyone have any experience with nozzles and solenoids that will stand up to 50/50 water methanol mix? From Frank_Mallory at srs.blkcat.com Tue Mar 26 05:41:52 1996 From: Frank_Mallory at srs.blkcat.com (Frank Mallory) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 05:41:52 GMT Subject: EFI for Bosch mech. injection Message-ID: Does anybody have any info on adapting the late-'60s Bosch mechanical injection to EFI? I understand it has been done in Germany. From sparks at probe.net Tue Mar 26 07:55:25 1996 From: sparks at probe.net (tom sparks) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:55:25 GMT Subject: Injectors Message-ID: Hey Cliff: Here's something off of the O2 sensor page. Let me know if it helps. BTW, What kind of injector are you using now? Best regards, Thomas Sparks > >>From KEN_MOSHER at gmgate.IMD.Sterling.COM Tue Apr 20 15:21:53 1993 SUBJECT: Injectors I ran across the following information about injectors and thought it may be of general interest: Manufacturer Part # Flow @ 45 psi ================================================ Lucas 5208006 15.8 lbs/hr Lucas 5207011 23.9 lbs/hr Bosch (Stock GN) 0-280-150-218 29.8 lbs/hr Bosch (Supercoupe) 0-280-150-756 32.0 lbs/hr Bosch (Porsche) 0-280-150-213 33.0 lbs/hr Bosch 0-280-150-911 33.0 lbs/hr Lucas 5207009 33.2 lbs/hr Lucas 5207008 40.1 lbs/hr Bosch 0-280-150-803 40.0 lbs/hr Lucas 5107010 52.0 lbs/hr AC Rochester MSD 2014 72.0 lbs/hr Bendix (red) GM25500139 82.0 lbs/hr AC Rochester MSD 2015 96.0 lbs/hr Bendix (white) GM (alcohol) 180.0 lbs/hr This data was gathered from ATR's literature enclosed in their 7th injector kit. Also, they note that the rated flow is NOT at rail pressure. The value at 45 psi is the differential pressure across the injector. In other words, if the fuel pressure is 65 psi @ WOT and the boost is set at 20 psi, the differential pressure is 45 psi. At 08:47 AM 3/25/96 EST, you wrote: >Does anyone have any flow rate information on various injectors (by part #, >make/model/engine application) it doesn't appear to be the kind of thing >available at the local auto parts store. > >The EFI Briggs & Stratton LIVES! I fired it up on EFI last night under manual >control of the pulse width, and ran it for about 10 minutes. The MC68HC11 and >signal conditioning circuits are funtioning properly. I'm a happy guy. > >It does appear that another injector might be more appropriate, as the one >installed now is far too big flowwise. As it is, I'm only running about 10 PSI >and the pulse widths are down in the 3-6 ms range. The strange thing about the >injector is that the nozzle is plastic with a large (approximately .080" >diameter) straight orifice, and squirts a collinear stream, not a spray... > >I've considered reworking the orifice to reduce flow/generate a conical spray. > >Anyone have any suggestions? > > >Cliff Ducharme From talltom at teleport.com Tue Mar 26 09:18:04 1996 From: talltom at teleport.com (talltom) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:18:04 GMT Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #86 Message-ID: Has anybody had any success with electronic port injected liquid propane with O2 sensor and turbos? How much compression/boost? What happens when you go to far? Is there such a thing as to far? >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: Darrell Norquay >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 16:44:21 MDT >Subject: CNG/LNG > >> I remember reading an article on natural gas injection that was put >> in a 302cid Ford Mustang which, incidentally, utilized the FACTORY ECU. I > >> I also recall that the stated octane rating of the gas is >> 130....could anybody verify this, and if so, why not run a 10:1 compression, >> bump the timing up a little, and run 10 psi of boost???(can't do that with > >Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) does have an octane rating somewhere near to >130 - you can run 25 degrees initial advance, and upwards of 35 total. >It's cheap, (at least here in Canada), and it has VERY low emissions. >Having said that, it is stored in tanks at up to 3000 PSI, which means >they are big, heavy, and they don't hold much fuel. Typically, range is >very limited. It's hard to find fuelling stations, (getting a bit easier) >and it takes half an hour to fill up. Plumbing and installation is very >expensive, all stainless hard tubing (no hoses allowed). Doesn't have as >high a specific energy rating (per lb) as gasoline, making fuel consumption >much higher. All in all rather impractical for a street vehicle. There's >no reason you can't run turbos and high compression with CNG, it's just >that nobody does... (Taxis, couriers, etc use it somewhat, and our local gas >company's service vehicles are all CNG - it figures) > >Propane (LPG), however, has a pretty good octane rating(110-115), is also >cheap, clean, and the tanks and plumbing are much lighter and less costly >since you only have to deal with a couple of hundred PSI. Tanks also hold >more fuel since it is in a liquid state instead of a gas, and you can get >it anywhere. Ideal fuel for use with turbos and superchargers. All in all >IT IS a good fuel for a street/high performance vehicle. > >Both fuels promote long engine life because of the cleaner combustion and >the fact that these fuels are not solvents like gasoline and don't wash the >lubricating oils off cylinder walls and valve guides, etc, thus prolonging >their life substantially. Half a million miles is not too unusual between >rebuilds on a propane engine, if it was built specifically for propane in >the first place... > >There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers... > >regards >dn > > >- -- > >- ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca > Datalog Technology Inc. Voice: (403) 243-2220 > Calgary, Alberta, Canada Fax: (403) 243-2872 > > "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete >- ----------------------------------------------------------------- > From talltom at teleport.com Tue Mar 26 09:51:48 1996 From: talltom at teleport.com (talltom) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:51:48 GMT Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #86 Message-ID: Awhile back a "calibrator" with the GM aurora-northstar group posted something. I'd like to see if I can get him to answer a couple of questions that I can't seem to get answers to. 1. Approx 20 years ago one of the GM engineers used a F.I. caddy 500 in a motorhome and supposedly attained some 27.?? mpg. I have some of this stuff and have never seen results even close, and don't really expect to. All that aside, any chance of getting a rundown on exactly what was done on this expieriment? 2. as one who knows just enough about engineering(I'm a dropout!) to be totally useless, I've noticed that while there seem to be dataloggers and dyno programs none appear to be integrated. With what is today available it would seem to me that a program and hardware should be available that could be strapped to a vehicle, keep a log of the conditions and output, and by varying timing and mixture determine optimum fuel mixture, spark timing, and shift points to achieve any specified performance goal. Has this been done? If so, by who? How long will it be before I can afford it?(I finally got something I've wanted for 30 years, a 46 hudson.-not!) From talltom at teleport.com Tue Mar 26 12:13:21 1996 From: talltom at teleport.com (talltom) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:13:21 GMT Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #87 Message-ID: >------------------------------ > >From: Charles Morgan >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 18:51:05 -0800 (PST) >Subject: Re: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system > >On 3/25/96 -0600, Ryan Harrell wrote: >>I was wondering if anybody knows if Chevrolet (or any aftermarket vendor) has >>a multi-port fuel injection system available for a 4.3L V6. I believe there >>is one, but I have no information on one. If so, does anybody know of a >>manufacturer who makes computers for these engines (Everybody seems to be >>obsessed with V8 engines)... > >The turbocharged 4.3L V6 that Chevy used in the Typhoon/Cyclone models is >true multi-port, but getting one of these would be darn near impossible >(I've tried). The 4.3L Vortec V6 introduced by Chevy in 1992 is called >"Central Multi-Port Fuel Injection" although it uses a single injector with >poppet valves at each intake port. It's performance, however, is very >adequate. Turbo City (714-997-1196) sells a multi-port kit for non-Vortec >4.3L V6s; I beleive they use a GM computer. > >Charlie Morgan > >------------------------------ > >From: Jim Steck <72614.557 at compuserve.com> >Date: 25 Mar 96 23:27:29 EST >Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection > >>I was wondering if anybody knows if Chevrolet (or any aftermarket vendor) >>has a multi-port fuel injection system available for a 4.3L V6. > >Haltech's competition is : > >Electromotive >14004-J Willard Drive >Chantilly, VA 22024 > >1-800-843-3889 > >They also use GM sensors. I've built three engines with their TEC systems . . . >including two 300 horsepower 2.0 liter turbocharged Alfa Romeos. Their system >has been very reliable (no failures in 100,000 cumulative miles) and is very >flexible. Prices are similar to Haltech. > >- -Jim Steck >AutoComponenti And for those "obsessed" with v8's I believe the 96 Chev 454 also uses whatever G.M. calls it's version of Bosch's constant injection system. Haven't seen one, but have read that it operates on the same barn door blowing in the breeze configuration and poppet valves in the ports. From fcmefi at fishnet.net Tue Mar 26 13:25:56 1996 From: fcmefi at fishnet.net (Fred Miranda) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:25:56 GMT Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection Message-ID: I've built three engines with their TEC systems . . . Their system >has been very reliable (no failures in 100,000 cumulative miles) and is very >flexible. Prices are similar to Haltech. > >-Jim Steck >AutoComponenti you have been lucky. both the TECs I have have failed. the first (a TEC1) died after 8 months in my autocross Spitfire. the second (TEC2) developed an intermitant problem after about 2 years and 30kmiles in the 323. Fred From 72614.557 at compuserve.com Tue Mar 26 13:44:23 1996 From: 72614.557 at compuserve.com (Jim Steck) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:44:23 GMT Subject: injector sizing Message-ID: Here are some more injectors at the low end of the flow range. This was taken from a Bosch sizing chart (in German) . . . now about 5 years old. There certainly will be more choices by now. Even the new motorcyles are using EFI. Manuf. Part # Flow @ 2.5 bar ================================================ Bosch 423700 21.4 (Porsche) Bosch 423710 16.7 (Alfa Romeo) Bosch 423719 13.6 (Renault) Bosch 423731 17.0 (BMW) Bosch 423732 16.7 (BMW) Bosch 793725 24.2 (Audi) Bosch 793730 24.2 (Audi) Bosch 793733 24.2 (Audi) -Jim Steck AutoComponenti From 72614.557 at compuserve.com Tue Mar 26 15:04:34 1996 From: 72614.557 at compuserve.com (Jim Steck) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 15:04:34 GMT Subject: TEC Message-ID: >>I've built three engines with their TEC systems . . . >>Their system has been very reliable (no failures in 100,000 cumulative miles) > and is very flexible. Prices are similar to Haltech. >> >>-Jim Steck >>AutoComponenti >you have been lucky. >both the TECs I have have failed. the first (a TEC1) died after 8 months in my >autocross Spitfire. the second (TEC2) developed an intermitant problem >after about 2 years and 30kmiles in the 323. I hope it continues. The oldest system was installed 8 years ago and has seen 60,000 miles. The only problem I've ever had was a magnetic pickup I damaged by mounting it a little too close to the trigger wheel (the crank moved around more than I expected). That created an intermittant problem that was solved by replacing the pickup. -Jim From slcall at most.fw.hac.com Tue Mar 26 16:39:18 1996 From: slcall at most.fw.hac.com (Stephen Callender) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:39:18 GMT Subject: Returned Maial Message-ID: If you were trying to contact the following, please note the correct address. mrdown at most.fw.hac.com "Michael R. Downs [Mike] Either the user name or host name was incorrect. Also the domain most.magec.com has been changed to most.fw.hac.com because of the purchase of Magnavox by Hughes Aircraft. The domain magec.com will disappear after March 26, 1996. Message headers follow: ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 554 ... Mail loop detected 554 sendall: too many hops (30 max) ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05979; Tue, 26 Mar 96 06:18:56 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005955; Tue Mar 26 06:16:36 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05952; Tue, 26 Mar 96 06:16:33 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005921; Tue Mar 26 06:14:17 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05918; Tue, 26 Mar 96 06:14:14 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005896; Tue Mar 26 06:12:59 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05893; Tue, 26 Mar 96 06:12:56 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005852; Tue Mar 26 06:10:22 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05848; Tue, 26 Mar 96 06:10:20 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005821; Tue Mar 26 06:08:52 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05818; Tue, 26 Mar 96 06:08:50 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005784; Tue Mar 26 06:07:16 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05781; Tue, 26 Mar 96 06:07:13 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005732; Tue Mar 26 06:04:40 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05729; Tue, 26 Mar 96 06:04:37 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005644; Tue Mar 26 06:02:04 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05637; Tue, 26 Mar 96 06:02:01 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005585; Tue Mar 26 05:59:21 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05582; Tue, 26 Mar 96 05:59:18 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005541; Tue Mar 26 05:56:45 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05538; Tue, 26 Mar 96 05:56:42 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005509; Tue Mar 26 05:54:21 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05506; Tue, 26 Mar 96 05:54:18 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005463; Tue Mar 26 05:51:51 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05460; Tue, 26 Mar 96 05:51:48 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005431; Tue Mar 26 05:49:33 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05427; Tue, 26 Mar 96 05:49:30 EST Received: from gw1.magec.com(151.168.2.3) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005408; Tue Mar 26 05:48:14 1996 Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05405; Tue, 26 Mar 96 05:48:12 EST Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu(128.146.90.150) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI005381; Tue Mar 26 05:46:13 1996 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for diy_efi-digest-outgoing id KAA02046; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:00:11 GMT Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for DIY_EFI-Digest-Send at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu id KAA02040; Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:00:08 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:00:08 GMT Message-Id: <199603261000.KAA02040 at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu> From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu To: DIY_EFI-Digest at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #87 Sender: owner-diy_efi-digest at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Stephen Callender Magnavox/Hughes Aircraft Corp 219-429-6557 slcall at most.fw.hac.com From jfisher at mail.utexas.edu Tue Mar 26 16:48:57 1996 From: jfisher at mail.utexas.edu (Jeff Fisher) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:48:57 GMT Subject: crank/cam + ignition/fuel 68332 timing relationships Message-ID: As more and more of my EFI code comes together I'm begining to deal with timing and TPU issues. One that I just can't figure out is the relationship between ignition and fuel injection signals: If you use a crank sensor, you can set up the PSP (position-synchronized pulse generator) TPU function to fire the ignition coils every 90 degrees. No problem. But, I do not see how you can set up this function to fire the fuel injectors from the crank sensor, since they would inject every other complete revolution of the crank. Can you specify angles greater than 360 degrees in PSP? Likewise, if you go with a cam only sensor, you can set up all of the injectors using the PSP function, but the coils would have to fire 2 times for every cam sensor revolution. Is there a way to make the TPU take care of rescheduling the PSP event?? I know you could handle this by having the CPU rewrite the configuration of PSP every time the crank turns over, or every half time the cam turns over. But this seems wrong. It defeats the purpose of the TPU being able to function independantly of the CPU. How would you do it? Thanks, Jeff Fisher From cosc19wi at Menudo.UH.EDU Tue Mar 26 16:49:35 1996 From: cosc19wi at Menudo.UH.EDU (Chan Lui) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 16:49:35 GMT Subject: unusbscribe Message-ID: unusbscribe DIY_EFI cosc19wi at menudo.uh.edu From jsg Tue Mar 26 17:10:35 1996 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:10:35 GMT Subject: crank/cam + ignition/fuel 68332 timing relationships Message-ID: -------- In message , you write: | As more and more of my EFI code comes together I'm begining to deal with | timing and TPU issues. One that I just can't figure out is the | But this seems wrong. It defeats the purpose of the TPU being able to | function independantly of the CPU. | | How would you do it? Use the PMMX, PSP12, and PSP3 TPU functions instead :). (see http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/rodb/tpu/tpu.html) This code was made for a 58X wheel, but I would think you could modify it for other sensors if needed. Any reason why your using PSP? John S Gwynne Gwynne.1 at osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bowling at cebaf.gov Tue Mar 26 17:36:04 1996 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:36:04 GMT Subject: TEC Message-ID: ~ ~ >>I've built three engines with their TEC systems . . . ~ >>Their system has been very reliable (no failures in 100,000 cumulative miles) ~ > and is very flexible. Prices are similar to Haltech. ~ >> ~ >>-Jim Steck ~ >>AutoComponenti ~ ~ >you have been lucky. ~ >both the TECs I have have failed. the first (a TEC1) died after 8 months in my ~ >autocross Spitfire. the second (TEC2) developed an intermitant problem ~ >after about 2 years and 30kmiles in the 323. ~ And dealing with the personnel at Electromotive ranks right up with removing one's own eye will Channelock pliers (with no pain killers). And they have lawsuits with almost everyone on the planet (with me probbly being the next one on the list). I wonder if they won the $10 million dollar lawsuit against GM (who supposedly stole their ideas)? - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From salendro at melsa.net.id Tue Mar 26 18:17:57 1996 From: salendro at melsa.net.id (yudhiar ariestono) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 18:17:57 GMT Subject: lambda sensor Message-ID: Does anybody have any info on adapting a lambda sensor to my toyota engine (7K series engine, 1800 cc)? because the stock ecu did not have one (BTW it is an open loop system and i want to modified it into a close loop system). What type of lambda sensor that matched to my engine, and where i can get it? please help me!!!!!! thank you!!!!!!! From jwills at ISI.EDU Tue Mar 26 18:26:09 1996 From: jwills at ISI.EDU (Jerry Wills) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 18:26:09 GMT Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection Message-ID: >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Steck <72614.557 at compuserve.com> writes: Jim> P.S. I want to add water injection to one of the turbos Jim> . . . anyone have any experience with nozzles and solenoids that Jim> will stand up to 50/50 water methanol mix? The old and crude way was a windshield washer setup, and you change the voltage, to change flow. In "Turbocharging" by Hugh McGinas he describes some diff setup and making your own jets for it. Jerry Wills I'll have enough POWER when I can spin the tires at the end of the straight! 89 FJ DERSLYR, DoD#500 KotF(Flag) Mark Donahue, about 917's USC/Information Sciences Institute (USC/ISI) SoCal (310) 822-1511 x 236 From Shaw_C at FS107.NPT.NUWC.NAVY.MIL Tue Mar 26 19:28:59 1996 From: Shaw_C at FS107.NPT.NUWC.NAVY.MIL (Shaw, Chris) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:28:59 GMT Subject: No Subject Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB1B20.A843CE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe DIY_EFI shaw_c at fs107.npt.nuwc.navy.mil ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB1B20.A843CE20-- From staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us Tue Mar 26 21:47:15 1996 From: staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us (Jim Staff) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:47:15 GMT Subject: Injectors Message-ID: > and the pulse widths are down in the 3-6 ms range. The strange thing about > the > injector is that the nozzle is plastic with a large (approximately .080" > diameter) straight orifice, and squirts a collinear stream, not a spray... > > I've considered reworking the orifice to reduce flow/generate a conical > spray. > > Anyone have any suggestions? > > > Cliff Ducharme It would be cool if you could send those schematics to me! (I've got mine done for the PC card) I've had injector problems. I've had problems just getting one, that works. I did however hook up an injector that ran like a carb, it was effected by the engine speed. So it sucked, but anyway it worked ok. It was similar to the one you described, if it's jet black, has a plastic face and fires a stream instead of a conic mist, it's most likely similar to the one I got off an ford, but unfortunatly I had an accident. I had it in the dyno (Which no longer works) I got up to 4.7 hp on my 3.0hp briggs when the improvised carb with port injector exploded. Back to the real topic, there are injectors that are rated for 15.8lbs/hr, that means a 17% duty cycle for a 3.5 hp @ 400 rpm. They are Lucas parts # 5208006 If you find a place that sells them tell me I can't find a local place that carries them. (There are only 3 local, and 1 other place I looked at.) Check out bowlings engine page to get information of injector sizing. BTW : Did you ever find Volumetric efficiency curves for these engines?? If not I'll just run the system with dynamic correction (Which is a bitch). From lndshrk at xmission.com Tue Mar 26 21:52:00 1996 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 21:52:00 GMT Subject: Honda "leanburn" Sensors Message-ID: I need to convert the output from a Honda Leanburn Sensor (or a Bosch/NTK UEGO) into a 0-1 volt signal for use by an ECU .. Does anyone have any ideas how to do this .. Does anyone know what type of sensor the Honda one is??? Does it output a Voltage, or is it a constant-voltage "watch the current" one?? Jim Conforti lndshrk at xmission.com From staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us Tue Mar 26 22:42:12 1996 From: staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us (Jim Staff) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:42:12 GMT Subject: Multi Spark Ignition... Message-ID: Has anyone here ever played with multi spark ignition? Where instead of firing once the plugs fire 5 to 20 times very quickly. I saw one of them a few days ago on an S10 chevy, it picked up it's power 40% according to the engine dyno!!!! I was thinking about making a DIY version, having flutter on 500ns intervals. I know that it will burn out the ignition coils I have (junk ford coils), I think that would be a cool ignition inprovement for my Briggs, also I was wondering for all you people out there that know what you're doing. Is a 6amp @ 100V transistor enough to switch the power conections to an injector and a standard ignition coil? Thanks, Jim Staff From MSargent at gallium.com Tue Mar 26 23:43:33 1996 From: MSargent at gallium.com (Michael F. Sargent) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 23:43:33 GMT Subject: Multi Spark Ignition... Message-ID: That's a Multiple Spark Discharge unit you probably saw. They are commercially available from MSD and available at any speed shop. Since they sell for just over $100, I wouldn't bother building one. I have the marine version in my boat (MSD 6M-2). They don't burn out coils, but replacing your coil with a strong aftermarket coild doesn't hurt. I used the MSD potted high vibration part. As for 40% increase in power ... bull****. Someone is really putting you on. Either that or that S10 must have been just barely running. On my boat I noticed a definate improvement in idle quality, and ease of starting. It also no longer "loads up" when idling, and so I can transition from a slow idle to full throttle without any stumble or hesitation. However, there was no noticable difference in top end speed with the MSD in place. A 40% increase would have resulted in the top end increasing by about 8 MPH (from 45 MPH to 53 MPH), but top end is still around 45. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent at gallium.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Wed Mar 27 03:20:27 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (Darrell Norquay) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 03:20:27 GMT Subject: Multi Spark Ignition... Message-ID: Jim: > Has anyone here ever played with multi spark ignition? Where instead of firing > once the plugs fire 5 to 20 times very quickly. I saw one of them a few days ago Got one in my beater. Works great. Easier starting, better idle, very slight increase in power, but 40%??? No way... > know that it will burn out the ignition coils I have (junk ford coils) It won't burn out the coils, the output is current limited... > for all you people out there that know what you're doing. Is a 6amp @ 100V > transistor enough to switch the power conections to an injector and a > standard ignition coil? Injector, maybe, coil no. You need a high voltage (450V) transistor for the coil driver, because the coil gives high back-emf when you switch it off. Also, you will need some transient protection diodes and possibly a zener or two to protect the transistor. Ed Lansingers article in Circuit Cellar Ink #63 (Oct 95) has a pretty good example of how it should be done. The output transistor is an SK10117. Rating would need to be at least 15A, 450V. (for the cheap solution, use the horizontal output transistor from an old TV) As far as the injector goes, if it is a low resistance (1-2 ohms), you will need to current limit the driver. Resist the urge ;) to just use a resistor to limit current, it will dissipate much too much power and drop the voltage enough so the injector may not open. Use active current limiting. If it is a high resistance (10-15 ohms), just hook one terminal directly to the +12 rail, and the other to the transistor. The transistor will complete the circuit to ground. The injector will have a much lower back_emf than an ignition coil, but the transistor voltage rating will still need to be around 100V, with a current rating at least 50% higher than the injector draws to provide a good safety margin. You will still need some clamping circuitry to protect the transistor from transients. regards dn -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Voice: (403) 243-2220 Calgary, Alberta, Canada Fax: (403) 243-2872 "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete ----------------------------------------------------------------- From mymove at serv01.net-link.net Wed Mar 27 03:51:18 1996 From: mymove at serv01.net-link.net (William Sarkozy) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 03:51:18 GMT Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection Message-ID: At 10:25 AM 3/26/96 PST, you wrote: >>>>>> "Jim" == Jim Steck <72614.557 at compuserve.com> writes: > >Jim> P.S. I want to add water injection to one of the turbos >Jim> . . . anyone have any experience with nozzles and solenoids that >Jim> will stand up to 50/50 water methanol mix? > >The old and crude way was a windshield washer setup, and you change >the voltage, to change flow. In "Turbocharging" by Hugh McGinas he >describes some diff setup and making your own jets for it. > > > Jerry Wills >I'll have enough POWER when I can spin the tires at the end of the straight! >89 FJ DERSLYR, DoD#500 KotF(Flag) Mark Donahue, about 917's >USC/Information Sciences Institute (USC/ISI) SoCal (310) 822-1511 x 236 > > > My new boat motor will be using this same technique for detonation control. I'll be running on gasoline under low power, and then iinject M85 or water/methanol solution under boost conditions. My plan is to salvave a roller-vane fuel pump from a port fuel-injected junker. These units usually put about 80-90 PSI. Normally the pump won't run. At about 0" manifold absolute pressure, I'll start the pump, the pressure being regulated by an adjustable orfice (needle valve) in the return line. My DFI system has an additional output to interface to a nitrous oxide system. When a programmed combination of throttle position and boost conditions are met, the output goes high. I'll set it for about 10 PSIG and use this output to open a solenoid valve to the supply jet(s). Here's where I'm lost. My turbo man says to build a plate to sandwich behind the throttle body on my GM TPI system and inject there. I can only imagine the rear cylinders getting most of the juice and melting pistions in the front. The alcohol will not be totally vaporized and will therefore have some inertia, no? It would be relatively easy for me to add individual jets in the runners below the plenum. I think this would be a superior setup. Another concern is the water/methanol mix. I'd like to use M85 (15% gasoline, 85% methanol) and adjust my fuel map to cut back on the gasoline at WOT while I add the juice. Several people have expressed concerns about the different flame propogation rates of methanol versus gasoline. Incidently, the DFI unit also adjusts the ignition lead (plus or minus, programmable) when the nitrous-oxide interface output is high. I suppose using a water/methanol mix really doesn't add fuel, but only acts as a detonation deterrant? If anybody has any ideas on this or has done something similar, I'd like to hear from them. Bill From dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Wed Mar 27 03:51:27 1996 From: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca (Darrell Norquay) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 03:51:27 GMT Subject: LPG + low octane pump gas Message-ID: George: > Has any one heard of using low octane pump gas plus LPG or CNG as a possible > octane booster? Yeah, I actually tried this once. I hooked up a standard pressure regulator to a propane tank, (vapor outlet), and plumbed the output of the regulator into the air cleaner. I drilled and tapped a hole into the regulator housing on the back side of the regulator diaphragm, stuck in a fitting, and plumbed a hose into manifold vacuum. The idea was to set the regulator so it was at zero pressure at idle, and as manifold vacuum dropped when the throttle was opened, it would allow the regulator to open up and inject propane into the carb. Sort of a vacuum enrichment valve (similar in principle to an EFI fuel pressure reg)... Results were inconclusive. The problem I was trying to overcome was pinging in the engine no matter how much I cranked back the timing. Turns out it was a completely different problem (it was the transmission - be damned if it didn't sound and act EXACTLY like detonation! The fourth mechanic I took it to finally figured it out) so I abandoned the idea. Later, I converted the engine to LPG fuel anyway, so it got shelved permanently. This is a simple thing to try, anyone who has detonation problems should look into it... regards dn -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn at dlogtech.cuc.ab.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Voice: (403) 243-2220 Calgary, Alberta, Canada Fax: (403) 243-2872 "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete ----------------------------------------------------------------- From klopfer at eagle.natinst.com Wed Mar 27 04:06:16 1996 From: klopfer at eagle.natinst.com (Mike Klopfer) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 04:06:16 GMT Subject: LPG injection Message-ID: I was looking at a SAE book on the Natural Gas Vehicle Challenge and several of the entries used Bosch injectors which I'm guessing are standard pintle type injectors used in gasoline vehicles. I took a quick glance at the paper from some Nebraska university and it talked about having two levels of pressure regulation the final one supplying the injectors at 100psi (as I remember). It also seemed that they used two injectors per cylinder to get enough flow. This lead me to wonder what are the reasons for wanting to inject liquid propane instead of propane vapor. From the various threads on the subject I gather that there might be some problem getting the liquid to a vapor at low temperatures. I'd guess that it takes less injection time to inject a given mass of fuel as a liquid. Wouldn't you need some pressure regulator in either case? I suppose the density of propane vapor would vary considerably with the temperature but as long as it followed the ideal gas law it should be easy to compensate for. mike From r.dingli at ee.mu.OZ.AU Wed Mar 27 04:57:13 1996 From: r.dingli at ee.mu.OZ.AU (robert dingli) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 04:57:13 GMT Subject: LPG injection Message-ID: Mike writes, > > I was looking at a SAE book on the Natural Gas Vehicle Challenge and > several of the entries used Bosch injectors which I'm guessing are standard > pintle type injectors used in gasoline vehicles. I took a quick glance > at the paper from some Nebraska university and it talked about having > two levels of pressure regulation the final one supplying the injectors at > 100psi (as I remember). It also seemed that they used two injectors per > cylinder to get enough flow. This lead me to wonder what are the reasons > for wanting to inject liquid propane instead of propane vapor. From the > various threads on the subject I gather that there might be some problem > getting the liquid to a vapor at low temperatures. I'd guess that it takes > less injection time to inject a given mass of fuel as a liquid. Wouldn't > you need some pressure regulator in either case? I suppose the density of > propane vapor would vary considerably with the temperature but as long as > it followed the ideal gas law it should be easy to compensate for. Based on some of our work with port injected CNG and propane, The benefits of injecting as a liquid as I see them are: - inlet charge cooling - simple multi port control - no gas carburettor restrictions The technical problems to be adressed: - any vapourisation within the lines or injector will adversly effect flow The LPG would need to be pumped to a pressure higher than the vapour pressure in the tank to avoid vapourisation due to higher temps/ lower pressure along the lines - injector lubrication - injector degradation due to internal cavitation - inlet charge over cooling Injection as a gas is possible using specialised injectors, but doesn't offer the benefit of intercooling the air stream. Using the vapouriser to cool an air-con system rather than using a compressor would utilise some of the cooling affect. This could be a suitable alternative for some applications. Robert -- Robert Dingli r.dingli at ee.mu.oz.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** From dzorde at aesprodata.com.au Wed Mar 27 07:09:14 1996 From: dzorde at aesprodata.com.au (dzorde at aesprodata.com.au) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 07:09:14 GMT Subject: injector pulse width Message-ID: Hope someone can help, I have put a TPI of a 305 camaro ('84 of memory) onto a 350 block. The cam is something like a 28/63 (fairly moderate for a mild cam). Does anyone have any idea how much fuel the 305 injectors flow (I think they are Bosch units) ? and the maximum pulse length required for the 350 using the same injectors (using the standard 305 fuel rail regulator)? Is it correct the 305 uses a 38PSI regulator, while the 350 uses a 40PSI regulator ? In fact does anyone have a fuel map printout for either a 305 or 350 they could mail me ? It may make it easier to start setting up the map. Any help appreciated Dan dzorde at aesprodata.com.au From mrb at mpx.com.au Wed Mar 27 09:07:07 1996 From: mrb at mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 09:07:07 GMT Subject: Multi Spark Ignition... Message-ID: At 10:41 PM 26/03/96 GMT, you wrote: > Has anyone here ever played with multi spark ignition? Where instead of firing >once the plugs fire 5 to 20 times very quickly. I saw one of them a few days ago >on an S10 chevy, it picked up it's power 40% according to the engine dyno!!!! I >was thinking about making a DIY version, having flutter on 500ns intervals. I >know that it will burn out the ignition coils I have (junk ford coils), I think >that would be a cool ignition inprovement for my Briggs, also I was wondering >for all you people out there that know what you're doing. Is a 6amp @ 100V >transistor enough to switch the power conections to an injector and a standard >ignition coil? > > Thanks, > Jim Staff > > Jim, What most people don't realise with the MSD is that (on a V8) over about 4000 RPM, maybe less I can't remember the actual RPM, the MSD becomes a "normal" single fire CDI. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. From fparker at umich.edu Wed Mar 27 12:36:51 1996 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank Parker) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:36:51 GMT Subject: Injectors Message-ID: > > and the pulse widths are down in the 3-6 ms range. The strange thing about > > the > > injector is that the nozzle is plastic with a large (approximately .080" > > diameter) straight orifice, and squirts a collinear stream, not a spray... > > > > I've considered reworking the orifice to reduce flow/generate a conical > > spray. > > > > Anyone have any suggestions? At the 10 psi you mentioned, you will get a stream. Most injectors I have tested need at least 30 ps i to generate a conical spray. Frank > From fparker at umich.edu Wed Mar 27 12:44:00 1996 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank Parker) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:44:00 GMT Subject: Multi Spark Ignition... Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, Michael F. Sargent wrote: > That's a Multiple Spark Discharge unit you probably saw. They are commercially > available from MSD and available at any speed shop. Since they sell for just > over $100, I wouldn't bother building one. > > > As for 40% increase in power ... bull****. Someone is really putting you on. > Either that or that S10 must have been just barely running. > You should also realize that the multiple spark last for about 20 deg of engine rotation. Once you get past about 2500 rpm , it is a single spark system. If your stock ignition is functioning properly, a MSD or similar normally will yield just a few hp. Helps best on idle, loading up, etc.. Frank > +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > From ampike at nsn.net Wed Mar 27 13:16:13 1996 From: ampike at nsn.net (Andrew Pike) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:16:13 GMT Subject: unusbscribe Message-ID: unusbscribe DIY_EFI ampike at 100jamz.com From bowling at cebaf.gov Wed Mar 27 14:53:50 1996 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:53:50 GMT Subject: Multi Spark Ignition... Message-ID: ~ ~ Jim, ~ What most people don't realise with the MSD is that (on a V8) over ~ about 4000 RPM, maybe less I can't remember the actual RPM, the MSD becomes ~ a "normal" single fire CDI. ~ ~ regards, ~ Mark Boxsell ~ MRB Design. ~ ~ Since the MultiSpark issue has been brought up, *someone* in the past had reversed-engineered the box and was going to post the schematic??? Also, does anyone know what Autotronics states is the number of sparks per cylinder event at idle? John told me he gets something like 3 sparks at idle - I think that their (Autotronics) advertisements were something like 10 or 20. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From jsg Wed Mar 27 17:38:24 1996 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 17:38:24 GMT Subject: GM serial line communications Message-ID: -------- In message <9602258278.AA827815632 at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca> , you write: | At the end of January there was some interest in reading the 8000 baud GM ser | ial | or some of the source code I can forward the information to them. Perhaps th | ere | is a place that I can post this in the DIY EFI archives. | | Will McGonegal | wmcgonegal at rr.etc.ncr.doe.ca Files can currently be placed on coulomb for retrieval via email. Our WWW sites (DIY_EFI and EFI332) are [probably] also available. I now have a working computer that will serve as a more permanent ftp site for the group, but I still have to find an Ethernet drop. Soon.... John S Gwynne Gwynne.1 at osu.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fparker at umich.edu Wed Mar 27 19:08:56 1996 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank Parker) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:08:56 GMT Subject: Multi Spark Ignition... Message-ID: > Since the MultiSpark issue has been brought up, *someone* in the past had > reversed-engineered the box and was going to post the schematic??? > > Also, does anyone know what Autotronics states is the number of sparks > per cylinder event at idle? John told me he gets something like 3 sparks > at idle - I think that their (Autotronics) advertisements were > something like 10 or 20. > > - Bruce > ----------------------------------------------------- The MSD box fires for 20 deg of engine rotation and converts to single spark @ about 2500 rpm with V-8 engine. I have schmatic of MSD box which MSD sent to me years ago when I was doing the electrics on all the Roush Mustang and Capri Trans-Am race cars.( 21 cars built in 24 mo) Send me a email if you are interested. Newer six series boxes appear the same. Frank Parker> From ehernan3 at ford.com Wed Mar 27 21:35:10 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 21:35:10 GMT Subject: Multi Spark Ignition... Message-ID: >I saw one of them(multi-spark units) a few days ago on an S10 chevy, >it picked up it's power 40% according to the engine dyno!!!! I really doubt that kind of improvement from an engine from a relatively modern vehicle. What year? What engine? And most importantly, what was the base ignition system that was costing them 40% power? I assume this is peak power. What about torque readings across the rest of the rpm range? What kind of condition was the rest of the engine in? I changed plug wires and picked up more than that, but my wires were in really old and in bad shape(I'm a cheapskate, see? Also a skeptic:) From ehernan3 at ford.com Wed Mar 27 21:38:26 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 21:38:26 GMT Subject: Multi Spark Ignition... Message-ID: >That's a Multiple Spark Discharge unit you probably saw. They are >commercially available from MSD and available at any speed shop. MSD ignitions stop multiple sparks at around 3000rpm, which is why they have no effect at peak power. It's nice to know they cleaned up your idle and subsequent transients. From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Wed Mar 27 22:10:00 1996 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 22:10:00 GMT Subject: Multi Spark Ignition... Message-ID: -> What most people don't realise with the MSD is that (on a V8) over -> about 4000 RPM, maybe less I can't remember the actual RPM, the MSD -> becomes a "normal" single fire CDI. MSD tells you that up front. Though for some reason people tend to get all excited about it, it's no secret, and there's no real advantage to multiple sparks over three or four thousand RPM, which is pretty hard to do with a stock-type coil feeding eight cylinders. It takes time to charge and discharge the coil, you know. You could go to a specially wound coil, but since there's little advantage at high RPM anyway, that's the province of expensive racing "engine management systems", not $125 CDI controllers. ====dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== From speartec at iquest.net Wed Mar 27 22:59:42 1996 From: speartec at iquest.net (john spears) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 22:59:42 GMT Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection Message-ID: I've been observing the list for awhile, thought I'd through my $.02 in. The 4.3L CPI engine is a huge improvement over the TBI version. Although it only uses one injector, the CPI design allows you to deliver the fuel where it belongs and also allows for some nice manifold air tuning in the process; thins you just can't do when you're carrying an A/F mixture. I've done about three of these engines and have turned out well. What would be ideal is to find a damaged one in the junkyard and get the manifold assembly for your engine. I use the factory ECM on most of my projects as they are fairly cheap and have all the bases covered. A little EPROM programming to cover your specifics and you're on your way! John Spears Speartech Fuel Injection Systems From speartec at iquest.net Wed Mar 27 23:18:17 1996 From: speartec at iquest.net (john spears) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 23:18:17 GMT Subject: 96 Chevy 454 Message-ID: There was some talk in digest #88 about the 96 454 Chevy. This engine: RPO L29 is actually a true sequential port fuel injection engine with 8 injectors mounted on a fuel rail in the usual manner. The 96 small-blocks for trucks, i.e., 5.0L (RPO L30), and the 5.7L (RPO L31), are in fact sequential central port injected engines. GM refers to this as "SCPI". These engines use a group of eight injectors molded together at the top of the intake manifold, with a tube and poppet valve from the bottom of each injector down to it's respective port. The 4.3L for 96 also takes on this form. These engines become more difficult to adapt to other applications using their original ECM's due to the added complexity of OBD II regulations for 1996. The 454 however could be set up pretty easily using an earlier small block TPI ECM. John Spears Speartech Fuel Injection Systems From speartec at iquest.net Thu Mar 28 00:03:47 1996 From: speartec at iquest.net (john spears) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 00:03:47 GMT Subject: TPI info Message-ID: In response to in digest 88 looking for TPI info: The 305 injectors are 19 lb/hr while the 350 injectors are 22 lb/hr. The fuel pressure regulators vary by year only, not by engine size. In 1985 (the first year for the TPI engine), the fuel pressure was lower; I beleive about 33 psi with idle vacuum and about 39-40 psi@ 0 vac. It was raised in 1986 and since then it has typically been around 36 psi with idle vacuum and 45psi @ 0 vac. An adjustable fuel pressure regulator is a very handy tuning tool on these engines as it will not only compensate for 305 injectors on a 350 engine, but also for other engine mods with a given ECM calibration! John Spears Speartech Fuel Injection Systems From gmd at tecinfo.com Thu Mar 28 02:17:26 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:17:26 GMT Subject: injector pulse width Message-ID: At 03:16 PM 3/27/96, you wrote: > > > Hope someone can help, > > I have put a TPI of a 305 camaro ('84 of memory) onto a 350 block. > The cam is something like a 28/63 (fairly moderate for a mild cam). > > Does anyone have any idea how much fuel the 305 injectors flow (I > think they are Bosch units) ? > > and the maximum pulse length required for the 350 using the same > injectors (using the standard 305 fuel rail regulator)? > > Is it correct the 305 uses a 38PSI regulator, while the 350 uses a > 40PSI regulator ? > > In fact does anyone have a fuel map printout for either a 305 or 350 > they could mail me ? It may make it easier to start setting up the > map. > > > Any help appreciated > > > Dan dzorde at aesprodata.com.au ============================================================================ ============> Dan, I think TPI started in 1985 and these systems are different from the '86 and up. Welcome to the TPI club, does your mouth still water when you look at it? Per Frank "Choco" Munday's book, TPFI, he states that 305/350 injectors will work reasonably well if exchanged as a complete set. This refers to the MAF type TPI systems up to '89, and exclude your '85 baby (even though it's MAF equiped). His book only covers the '86-'89 models, but I think the injector swaping rule will apply to your system also since it's a MAF type. Choco goes on to say that he can not tell the difference below 4,500rpm. Thats big in small and small in big. > >There are differences in the operating pressures. Per chilton, 44psi for 5.0 & 37psi for 5.7 22lbs/hr flow rate for the 350 per Ben Watsons chevy fuel injection book (no 305 data). BTW guys, The '89 TPI in my '58 is running great! All bugs have been worked out and I've clocked over 600 trouble free city miles already. The R700 is comming soon. Dan, if you can give the symtoms, I sure one of us gurus could help. Good luck GMD From gmd at tecinfo.com Thu Mar 28 02:17:43 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:17:43 GMT Subject: attachment questions Message-ID: Thanks Will, I got your attached file in the following format. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ The following is an attached File item from cc:Mail. It contains eight bit information which had to be encoded to insure successful trans- mission through various mail systems. To decode the file use the UUDECODE program. --------------------------------- Cut Here --------------------------------- begin 644 serset.exe M35IP 0X 7 9 "8$)J3$ 0! !%!P ' +, #( S0 -( #D M Z0 .X 0 !0$ H! = 0 (@$ " 0 @P$ )8! "@ 0 TP$ .T! / @ *P( #4" !- @ 5P( M )@" "N @ LP( +@" #' @ X@( .<" #L @ , , $4# !* P Blah blah blah.... What or where can I find UUDECODE? I take it, you are using cc-Mail? Is the attached file an executable file? Thanks a million Will. GMD From tfaugno at qualcomm.com Thu Mar 28 02:43:58 1996 From: tfaugno at qualcomm.com (Terry Faugno) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:43:58 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: First off, introductions. My name is Terry Faugno. I work in San Diego, California at a company called Qualcomm Inc. We researched, developed, and are now marketing digital cellular telephony equipment. My interest in DIY EFI is based on a passion for performance, and a love of tinkering. My ultimate goal is to find a Porsche 911/912 or 944 or a 924, install either a Buick 231 V6 or a small block Chevy engine, and fabricate a SMPI fuel delivery system, super or turbocharger, and, as you'll read below, a constantly variable valvetrain system. My desire is to see how much horsepower can be derived from a smallish engine (300 CID maximum), without sacrificing engine longevity. I selected the Porsche body(ies) as it has an inbuilt capability for high performance, and they're quite stylish to boot. Now the off-topic, but related post mentioned in the subject header: I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a limitless variety of "virtual camshaft" profiles, like Honda's VTEC, or any of the available variable valve timing schemes. Only more so, as one is not limited to 2 profiles. That's the gist of my question. Thank you in advance for any information that any of the subscribers to this list might provide. Thanx, Terry From ricrain at airmail.net Thu Mar 28 02:47:00 1996 From: ricrain at airmail.net (Ric Rainbolt) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:47:00 GMT Subject: injector pulse width Message-ID: > I have put a TPI of a 305 camaro ('84 of memory) onto a 350 block. > The cam is something like a 28/63 (fairly moderate for a mild cam). > > Does anyone have any idea how much fuel the 305 injectors flow (I > think they are Bosch units) ? > > and the maximum pulse length required for the 350 using the same > injectors (using the standard 305 fuel rail regulator)? > > Is it correct the 305 uses a 38PSI regulator, while the 350 uses a > 40PSI regulator ? > According to a catalog I have from Performance Fuel systems, the following Bosch injectors are used: GM 5.0 TPI is a 19 lb/hr @ 43 PSI inector (12 ohms). GM 5.7 TPI is a 22 lb/hr @ 43 PSI inector (12 ohms). At least according to this list, all GM products are 43 PSI and all Ford products are 39 PSI. Hope this helps, Ric Rainbolt ricrain at airmail.net From jac at wave.sheridan.wy.us Thu Mar 28 03:07:37 1996 From: jac at wave.sheridan.wy.us (john carroll) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 03:07:37 GMT Subject: VW Bosch injection Message-ID: My name is Justin Carroll. I am using my father's account. I have a 1976 Volkswagon Bus and am looking for information about the Bosh fuel injection system that came stock in this vehicle. I would really like schematics of the controller/computer and the sensors. Does anyone know of an after market computer or know of anyone who has built a controller for the system? Thanks ----------------------------------------------- Justin Carroll @ jac at wave.sheridan.wy.us From ricrain at airmail.net Thu Mar 28 03:09:36 1996 From: ricrain at airmail.net (Ric Rainbolt) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 03:09:36 GMT Subject: EFI for Bosch mech. injection Message-ID: >Does anybody have any info on adapting the late-'60s Bosch mechanical >injection >to EFI? I understand it has been done in Germany. > I understand that the later Bosch mechanical systems had closed loop operation utilizing an O2 sensor and a "fuel frequency" valve. This valves duty cycle was varied by an analog circuit to achieve the desired level of enrichment. At some throttle level, the closed loop is defeated and the system returns to the preset levels prescibed by the air mass plate. Hope this helps, Ric Rainbolt ricrain at airmail.net From jshapiro at CS.Cornell.EDU Thu Mar 28 05:03:50 1996 From: jshapiro at CS.Cornell.EDU (Jody Shapiro) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 05:03:50 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: >From: Terry Faugno[SMTP:tfaugno at qualcomm.com] >Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 1996 1:43 PM >To: DIY_EFI at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... > > First off, introductions. My name is Terry Faugno. I work in San Welcome to the list! >Now the off-topic, but related post mentioned in the >subject header: > >I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had >developed a system that replaces camshafts with >computer controlled solenoids to actuate the valve train. >Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to >start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a You may be referring to Lotus' active electro-hydraulic valvetrain. If so, you may want to take a look at: Dobson, C. and Drake, T. 1991 "Emissions Optimization by Camshaft Profile Switching" SAE Paper 910838 -Jody --- http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Info/People/jshapiro/jshapiro.htm begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@@%`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`&0!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F`' ``0```"T```!2 M13H at 3V9F('1O<&EC+"!B=70@QCU=O`!X,`0`` M``4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````& ```&IS:&%P:7)O0&-S+F-O``@0`0```&4```!&4D]-.E1%4E)91D%5 M1TY/4TU44#I41D%51TY/0%%504Q#3TU-0T]-4T5.5#I7141.15-$05DL34%2 M0T at R-RPQ.3DV,3HT,U!-5$\Z1$E9149)0$-/54Q/34)%3D=/2$E/+5-4```` M``(!"1 !````)@0``"($```*" ``3%I&=4%J]JO_``H!#P(5`J@%ZP*#`% " M\@D"`&-H"L!S970R-P8`!L,"@S(#Q0(`<')"<1'B1W at 80!U9VYO6U--5(Q0.@`P((- <74'0-$%H&UM+B'Q70J'&T^_'%\= M9P9@`C >/Q]+5PF PFX'D&1A>2P%T K $1%P(#(W*' Q.3D"-BD at .C0S(%!- M;R*/(Y\DKR `;R8/'TM$@$E97T5&24 %H!9U%: &T"X)\& 01 $(" :0?!)('?]!;!K01$& M`CEO/><\A2?@[R'B0G W(#<0:$)P&= 3P)XA/(4\A3Y_'85.;P?@FT.-(/S\< M22=V0G!1`0L@?3? =01@"' $($18T)0<_\1@ & !" # M\$-6 at 5N .G("$'(#@5SP<3)N9/]MHVQA:P$OLDOQ`V )P$)0WU: M/(]NYSQX;K]9"& XP>T at 4&)"0=P:7HPX$&Q-X @4$/_744IP -@&D!B, 8`7=%QXU(B!@!!12G M87,1("&"4# X,SA'S"U*701P>8=FB)!UQ6@"0'#P.B\O=XF@(C!!X 6A1R at 0 M8B Q$B]);@(0+\Q094KP8C O:EUA2P!K`V"+ARZ),&UUQ14Q``&-D ```P`0 M$ $````#`!$0`````$ `!S @&1;\8AR[`4 `"# @&1;\8AR[`1X`/0`!```` .!0```%)%.B `````L;P` ` end From jshapiro at CS.Cornell.EDU Thu Mar 28 05:09:16 1996 From: jshapiro at CS.Cornell.EDU (Jody Shapiro) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 05:09:16 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: Resend, but this time with the no RTF/WINMAIL.DAT crap from MS Exchange. Sorry about that... >From: Terry Faugno[SMTP:tfaugno at qualcomm.com] >Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 1996 1:43 PM >To: DIY_EFI at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... > > First off, introductions. My name is Terry Faugno. I work in San Welcome to the list! >Now the off-topic, but related post mentioned in the >subject header: > >I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had >developed a system that replaces camshafts with >computer controlled solenoids to actuate the valve train. >Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to >start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a You may be referring to Lotus' active electro-hydraulic valvetrain. If so, you may want to take a look at: Dobson, C. and Drake, T. 1991 "Emissions Optimization by Camshaft Profile Switching" SAE Paper 910838 -Jody --- http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Info/People/jshapiro/jshapiro.htm From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Thu Mar 28 05:09:56 1996 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 05:09:56 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: > I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system >that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the >valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to >start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a >limitless variety of "virtual camshaft" profiles, like Honda's VTEC, or any >of the available variable valve timing schemes. Only more so, as one is not >limited to 2 profiles. I think it was Renault (?) that developed a pneumatically operated valve system for their F1 engines some years back. Don't know much about it or how successful it was. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From ravalent at liii.com Thu Mar 28 05:38:31 1996 From: ravalent at liii.com (Bob Valentine) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 05:38:31 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, Stephen Lamb wrote: > > I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system > >that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the > >valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to > >start searching from? Try this month's Automotive Industries. It's the annual "Motors" issue... They have a few pages devoted to a system that's been developed to do valve acutaction with electromagnets - efficiently! > >From a performance standpoint, one could program a > >limitless variety of "virtual camshaft" profiles, like Honda's VTEC, or any > >of the available variable valve timing schemes. Only more so, as one is not > >limited to 2 profiles. Just about. The problem for the longest time has been acutating the valves without drawing huge amounts of electrical power. Just think, 20 years from now you can make your 500hp V8 idle sounding like a 200k mile junker. Press the keypad and you're back to your normal profile. 8^) --> Bob Valentine <-- --> ravalent at liii.com <-- "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined" From tfaugno at qualcomm.com Thu Mar 28 07:00:35 1996 From: tfaugno at qualcomm.com (Terry Faugno) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:00:35 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: >I think it was Renault (?) that developed a pneumatically operated valve >system for their F1 engines some years back. Don't know much about it or >how successful it was. All righty then! Thanx for the lead. I've cruised to several Renault sites and dropped a few enquiries about. Should be interesting to see what kind of response I get. Thanx, Terry From dchannon at cs.newcastle.edu.au Thu Mar 28 07:02:33 1996 From: dchannon at cs.newcastle.edu.au (David Channon) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:02:33 GMT Subject: The EFI project status Message-ID: Hi, Sorry but I am a very keen newbie to this group and I am interested in building the EFI project you are developing. I would like to know the status as the web page states that the board will be ready this month. In addition, how do I place my name down to purchase the parts and board(s) etc etc as I assume you can arange a bulk purchase. Finally, can you tell me if the project EFI system is suited to a turbo application and what information (Books etc) cover EFI and turbos (I am grafting a duel turbo system to a 289/302W V8). Thanks in advance, Regards David. ps: If this is not an appropriate place to ask these question please direct me to an appropriate forum. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- David Channon .-_|\ Department of Computer Science / \ The University of Newcastle \.--._/ NSW, 2308, AUSTRALIA v Email : dchannon at cs.newcastle.edu.au URL : http://wwwcs.newcastle.edu.au/Research/VMRG/dchannon.html ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Virtual Memory is like an orgasm, It's better if you don't fake it!" -- S Cray From SJCHU at CSUPomona.Edu Thu Mar 28 08:09:02 1996 From: SJCHU at CSUPomona.Edu (SJCHU at CSUPomona.Edu) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:09:02 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: A company out here in Southern California had sucessfully ran an engine with electric solenoid. Actuaaly, two company had bbeen developing the technology. I think one of them is call Digi-Valve or something like that. can't remeber. the article was in Turbo magazine. Jacky C. From staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us Thu Mar 28 09:35:11 1996 From: staffj at freenet.msp.mn.us (Jim Staff) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 09:35:11 GMT Subject: Multi Spark Ignition... Message-ID: > I really doubt that kind of improvement from an engine from a > relatively modern vehicle. What year? What engine? And most > importantly, what was the base ignition system that was costing them > 40% power? I assume this is peak power. What about torque readings > across the rest of the rpm range? What kind of condition was the rest > of the engine in? I changed plug wires and picked up more than > that, but my wires were in really old and in bad shape(I'm a > cheapskate, see? Also a skeptic:) This is what I know about the engine, it was made in the early 80's, and is used in racing. The multi-spark ignition the vehicle isn't industry made it DIY. That was why I was fondering if making it switch very quickly (On the order of 500-750ns) would contribute to my power. At that speed I could have multi spark at any RPM. My application only goes to 4K anyway. The main point of my first post was whether or not this is a good idea, and would it improve my efficiency? Jim Staff From CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com Thu Mar 28 10:31:41 1996 From: CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com (Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:31:41 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: Folks, Just thinking. The MSD units go to single spark at around 3k, right? If I am not mistaken, all of these units only use one coil to fire up to eight cylinders. Therefore, the COIL is still firing four times per revolution anyway. Almost all of the ignition systems proposed to date only fire at the most once per rev (wasted spark systems). Some even want to use one coil per cylinder! It would appear that we should be able to implement a multispark system that goes to much higher revs than the MSD unit. How many sparks per event would depend upon the coil charge and discharge time, but we all want to charge with real high currents anyway.... Just some thoughts on the subject. As an aside to this, there has been a lot of bandwidth spent on the subject of one coil per cylinder. To tell you the truth, I do not see any advantage of one coil per cylinder over one coil per two cylinders. The exception being extremly high RPM (10000+) motors. The proposals to date have all involved much extra hardware and software complexity to impliment. What justifies this? (Don't take that wrong. I do not see how it is justified and I was wondering how the folks who are for it see things) I must give it one thing: It looks really sharp! Not to mention you can put the coil almost right on the plug to minimise RF emisions and power lose to the plug. But anyway, were's the beef? Clint ccorbin at intel7.intel.com From mrb at mpx.com.au Thu Mar 28 11:06:18 1996 From: mrb at mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:06:18 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: At 06:43 PM 27/03/96 -0800, you wrote: > > I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system >that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the >valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to >start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a >limitless variety of "virtual camshaft" profiles, like Honda's VTEC, or any >of the available variable valve timing schemes. Only more so, as one is not >limited to 2 profiles. > That's the gist of my question. Thank you in advance for any >information that any of the subscribers to this list might provide. > > Thanx, > Terry > > Terry, Renault developed a system using pneumatics. However what most people don't understand is that they are replacing the valve springs with "air bags" NOT ACTUATING THE VALVES. To my knowledge all current F1 engines have pneumatic valve trains. This is why they are able to pull the massive rpm they use. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. From gallant at oasys.dt.navy.mil Thu Mar 28 12:21:25 1996 From: gallant at oasys.dt.navy.mil (Robert Gallant) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:21:25 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: > Just thinking. The MSD units go to single spark at around 3k, right? So on my Rx7 (ignition signal looks like a 4 cyl) its multi spark up to 6000 rpm. Aside from multispark, doesn't the MSD supply a higher voltage to the coil. Later Rob gallant at oasys.dt.navy.mil From knick at ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Thu Mar 28 12:36:40 1996 From: knick at ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Jens Knickmeyer) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:36:40 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: wrote: > > I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system > that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the > valve train. Mercedes Benz started using a pneumatic valve control system in their cars for the German Touring Car Championship. They were quite successfull... Jens From allnight at everett.net Thu Mar 28 12:46:21 1996 From: allnight at everett.net (Johnny) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 12:46:21 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544 wrote: > As an aside to this, there has been a lot of bandwidth spent on the > subject of one coil per cylinder. To tell you the truth, I do not see > any advantage of one coil per cylinder over one coil per two cylinders. > The exception being extremly high RPM (10000+) motors. The proposals to > date have all involved much extra hardware and software complexity to > impliment. What justifies this? (Don't take that wrong. I do not see > how it is justified and I was wondering how the folks who are for it see > things) I must give it one thing: It looks really sharp! Not to mention > you can put the coil almost right on the plug to minimise RF emisions and > power lose to the plug. But anyway, were's the beef? Some engines cams have too much overlap to get away with firing on the exhaust stroke. I admit, it has to be a total crackler before you will run into this problem, but it has been done. As far as the short leads to the plug goes, the coolest by far is to have the coil mount/attach directly to the end of the plug... no wire as such. There isn't always enough room physically to do this, but it can be achieved. Actually, integral plug/coils are an ancient thing from some pre-1930's aircraft engines. Where did we get off the track? -j- From glassjo at vs-ulm.dasa.de Thu Mar 28 13:53:32 1996 From: glassjo at vs-ulm.dasa.de (Joachim Glasstetter) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 13:53:32 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: hey Jens, Deine Teilname an der Efi list hat Deine Anwesenheit bestaetigt!! ;-) hihi es gibt kein Verstecken! Bis gleich, Joachim :-)))))) From ehernan3 at ford.com Thu Mar 28 13:54:34 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 13:54:34 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: Several OEMs are doing this or designing engines that do this, namely, one coil per spark plug. Where's the beef? 1) No plug wires. Like someone correctly guessed in their post, if you have no plug wires, you don't have to contend with RFI and losses across the wires. You still have to contend with RFI and losses within the coil itself, but that's an existing problem. You also eliminate one connection when you eliminate the plug wires. That's one less thing to breakdown and leave you stranded. Sure, you just added a bunch of 12 volt wires to the each coil, but it's much easier to deal with 12V than 12kV-45kV. 2) Spark energy. Firing once every two revs means you can charge longer and deliver more energy per spark than firing three or four times each rev. 3) Multistrike/multiple spark. You can extend the multistrike rpm range all the way to redline instead of have to go single strike at 3000-4000rpm. Now it gets really interesting... 4) Combustion sensing. You can read the resistance across the gap after firing the plug and determine if you misfired or if it the flame went out. You can then strike the plug again until you are satisfied that you've burnt everything! Jacob's Electronics claim they can do this with one coil firing many cylinders, but imagine how much better you can do it if you have an independant circuit for each cylinder. This is literally on demand multistrike capability and can extend your lean limits and/or reduce feedgas emissions. 5) Independant cylinder knock control. With two knock sensors, you can determine which cylinder is knocking and alter that cylinder's spark advance without screwing with the remaining cylinders' spark advance. So, the beef is, with coil per plug, you are one step closer to controlling several one cylinder engines instead of controlling a V6 or V8 or I4. There are tradeoffs, but if you really need some of these things(especially extending the lean limits and reducing emissions), you will pay for them. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From bnell at utk.edu Thu Mar 28 14:06:26 1996 From: bnell at utk.edu (Bob Nell) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 14:06:26 GMT Subject: Computer Controlled Valve Timing Message-ID: While at the 96 Detroit SAE Convention I picked up a brochure from a company named Aura. Their EVA's (Electromagnetic Valve Actuators) Look like just what you're looking for. Aura Systems, Inc. 2335 Alaska Avenue El Segundo, CA 90245 310/643-5300 FAX 310/643-8719 They had some other interesting products as well... At 06:43 PM 3/27/96 -0800, you wrote: > First off, introductions. My name is Terry Faugno. I work in San >Diego, California at a company called Qualcomm Inc. We researched, >developed, and are now marketing digital cellular telephony equipment. My >interest in DIY EFI is based on a passion for performance, and a love of >tinkering. > My ultimate goal is to find a Porsche 911/912 or 944 or a 924, >install either a Buick 231 V6 or a small block Chevy engine, and fabricate a >SMPI fuel delivery system, super or turbocharger, and, as you'll read below, >a constantly variable valvetrain system. My desire is to see how much >horsepower can be derived from a smallish engine (300 CID maximum), without >sacrificing engine longevity. I selected the Porsche body(ies) as it has an >inbuilt capability for high performance, and they're quite stylish to boot. > > Now the off-topic, but related post mentioned in the subject header: > > I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system >that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the >valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to >start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a >limitless variety of "virtual camshaft" profiles, like Honda's VTEC, or any >of the available variable valve timing schemes. Only more so, as one is not >limited to 2 profiles. > That's the gist of my question. Thank you in advance for any >information that any of the subscribers to this list might provide. > > Thanx, > Terry > > > > From tangen at norcross.amrt.slb.com Thu Mar 28 14:32:51 1996 From: tangen at norcross.amrt.slb.com (Wayne Tangen) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 14:32:51 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: wrote: > I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system >that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the >valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to >start searching from? Aura Systems Inc. in El Segundo, California holds a patent on exactly what you describe. The devices are currently only prototypes. See a short blurb at this Motorcycle Online web page for more details: http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcdaily/day0178.html Wayne Tangen ================================================================= Wayne Tangen tangen at amrt0001.norcross.amrt.slb.com Electrical Engineer Voice: 770-417-2959 x3165 AMRT Fax: 770-417-2961 3155-A Northwoods Pkwy. Norcross, GA 30071 AMRT is a Joint Venture Partnership between Motorola, Inc. and Schlumberger Industries, Inc. ================================================================= From dschmidt at rain.org Thu Mar 28 15:47:20 1996 From: dschmidt at rain.org (David Schmidt) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 15:47:20 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: In the new issue of Chilton's automotive industries, they did an article on a company called AURA in California that is making some neat electrical components for cars, such as an integrated flywheel/alternator/starter. Also highlight was a solenoid activated valve train. They have springs that hold the intake and exhaust valves in mid open position. A CLOSE and OPEN solenoid is activated to either close or open the valve. Since solenoids don't work well over large distances, keeping the valve spring loaded in the half lift position, they are able to use lower current solenoids. Apparently they've been modifying some major manufacturer's engines and sending them back for performance reviews. Interesting stuff. At 04:09 PM 3/28/96 +1100, you wrote: >> I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system >>that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the >>valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to >>start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a >>limitless variety of "virtual camshaft" profiles, like Honda's VTEC, or any >>of the available variable valve timing schemes. Only more so, as one is not >>limited to 2 profiles. > >I think it was Renault (?) that developed a pneumatically operated valve >system for their F1 engines some years back. Don't know much about it or >how successful it was. > >Cheers > >Stephen Lamb >Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL >506 Lorimer Street >Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia >Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 >Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 > >IZCC #180 > > > From dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU Thu Mar 28 16:07:49 1996 From: dmp at bmesun1.MCG.EDU (David M Parrish) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:07:49 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: > From: Johnny > directly to the end of the plug... no wire as such. There isn't always > enough room physically to do this, but it can be achieved. Actually, > integral plug/coils are an ancient thing from some pre-1930's aircraft > engines. Where did we get off the track? Some of the reasons given for coil-per-cylinder is the reason I'd like to keep same on the Subaru SVX engine I'm working on. I've never really cared much for distributor caps and hi-tension wires. --- David Parrish From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Thu Mar 28 16:12:06 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:12:06 GMT Subject: Electronic valves Message-ID: Hi BMW? developed a system using piezo-electric stacks about 10-15 years ago. There was an article in Road &Track about it... but I don't have it. More recently (about a year ago) Turbo magazine had an article about solenoid operated valves. They were operated by electronics from Electromotive. I think I still have the magazine. When I find it, I'll give you the date and manufacturer of the head. I also don't remember the engine under the test. Werner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to start searching from? From fparker at umich.edu Thu Mar 28 16:43:28 1996 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank Parker) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:43:28 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: > went out. You can then strike the plug again until you are satisfied > that you've burnt everything! Jacob's Electronics claim they can do > this with one coil firing many cylinders, but imagine how much better > you can do it if you have an independant circuit for each cylinder. > This is literally on demand multistrike capability and can extend your > lean limits and/or reduce feedgas emissions. Jacobs describes normal physics as applying only to them. Their box is nothing special. It does not have any special circuit like as seen in recent SAE papers on monitoring spark ionization current. It is a neat idea. > > 5) Independant cylinder knock control. With two knock sensors, you can > determine which cylinder is knocking and alter that cylinder's spark > advance without screwing with the remaining cylinders' spark advance. This is available now in the aftermarket from J&S. I use their box with Bosch sensor. It can retard each cylinder selectively and you end up with separate timing curves for ea cylinder. Or it can retard all the same. Frank Parker > From Charles_Flick_at_ya721 at platinum.brooks.af.mil Thu Mar 28 16:51:14 1996 From: Charles_Flick_at_ya721 at platinum.brooks.af.mil (Charles_Flick_at_ya721 at platinum.brooks.af.mil) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:51:14 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: CNN did a story on one of these system ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Author: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET-HUB Date: 3/27/96 10:30 PM First off, introductions. My name is Terry Faugno. I work in San Diego, California at a company called Qualcomm Inc. We researched, developed, and are now marketing digital cellular telephony equipment. My interest in DIY EFI is based on a passion for performance, and a love of tinkering. My ultimate goal is to find a Porsche 911/912 or 944 or a 924, install either a Buick 231 V6 or a small block Chevy engine, and fabricate a SMPI fuel delivery system, super or turbocharger, and, as you'll read below, a constantly variable valvetrain system. My desire is to see how much horsepower can be derived from a smallish engine (300 CID maximum), without sacrificing engine longevity. I selected the Porsche body(ies) as it has an inbuilt capability for high performance, and they're quite stylish to boot. Now the off-topic, but related post mentioned in the subject header: I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a limitless variety of "virtual camshaft" profiles, like Honda's VTEC, or any of the available variable valve timing schemes. Only more so, as one is not limited to 2 profiles. That's the gist of my question. Thank you in advance for any information that any of the subscribers to this list might provide. Thanx, Terry From Utgarhoth at aol.com Thu Mar 28 16:56:34 1996 From: Utgarhoth at aol.com (Utgarhoth at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:56:34 GMT Subject: TEC Message-ID: If I were them, I'd sue GM too. I'm are currently using an Electromotive multi-coil ignition system on a '66 Coronet. I happened to be in a GM dealer about a month ago, and I noticed the very same ignition system on a brand-new Aurora. Looking further around the showroom, I came to the conclusion that GM must have bought the Electromotive ignition system. Does anyone know if this was licensed or simply stolen from Electromotive? --- R. Andrew Broadhurst From Utgarhoth at aol.com Thu Mar 28 16:56:45 1996 From: Utgarhoth at aol.com (Utgarhoth at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:56:45 GMT Subject: VW Bosch injection Message-ID: Justin Carroll wrote requesting information on his VW Bus Injection System, so being a VW and Bosch fan, I thought I'd just jump in on this one... I believe that all injected air-cooled VW's used Bosch CIS Mechanical injection, which doesn't really have a "computer" at all. Just a temperature sensor for the cold-start enrichment injector, and a mechanical metering system. I have the same system on my '79 SAAB, and I have a '74 Beetle which, well, hmm... is using dual Solex Carbs and no FI as yet. CIS is very simple and reliable and works quite well, particularly in small 4 cylinder engines. Bosch publishes an excellent book on their fuel injection systems, and there is abundant information on CIS in the Bosch Automotive Handbook as well. Another source of good information is the Robert Bentley official VW service manuals. --- R. Andrew Broadhurst From Utgarhoth at aol.com Thu Mar 28 16:56:51 1996 From: Utgarhoth at aol.com (Utgarhoth at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:56:51 GMT Subject: Pneumatic Valve Actuators Message-ID: All modern F1 engines use pneumatic valve actuators. This, of course, requires an air compressor on board, and some very fast, high-precision pneumatic valvegear. This allows them to vary the timing profiles and turn 16 to 18 thousand RPM and make rediculous amounts of power. Expect to pay half a million dollars to adapt your current engine, though. Pushrods and rocker arms are good for 8500-9000 RPM and overhead cams up to 12 or 14 thousand, if properly designed. I would stick to one of these conventional technologies. As for solenoid or electro-hydraulic actuation, they have both been done. The real problem here, though, is the vast amount of energy required by the electrical circuts to power them at high RPM. --- R. Andrew Broadhurst From n9540517 at gonzo.cc.wwu.edu Thu Mar 28 17:11:28 1996 From: n9540517 at gonzo.cc.wwu.edu (Seth Allen) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:11:28 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Terry Faugno wrote: > Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:43:50 -0800 (PST) > From: Terry Faugno > To: DIY_EFI at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... > > First off, introductions. My name is Terry Faugno. I work in San > Diego, California at a company called Qualcomm Inc. We researched, > developed, and are now marketing digital cellular telephony equipment. My > interest in DIY EFI is based on a passion for performance, and a love of > tinkering. > My ultimate goal is to find a Porsche 911/912 or 944 or a 924, > install either a Buick 231 V6 or a small block Chevy engine, and fabricate a > SMPI fuel delivery system, super or turbocharger, and, as you'll read below, > a constantly variable valvetrain system. My desire is to see how much > horsepower can be derived from a smallish engine (300 CID maximum), without > sacrificing engine longevity. I selected the Porsche body(ies) as it has an > inbuilt capability for high performance, and they're quite stylish to boot. > > Now the off-topic, but related post mentioned in the subject header: > > I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system > that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the > valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to > start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a > limitless variety of "virtual camshaft" profiles, like Honda's VTEC, or any > of the available variable valve timing schemes. Only more so, as one is not > limited to 2 profiles. > That's the gist of my question. Thank you in advance for any > information that any of the subscribers to this list might provide. > > Thanx, > Terry > Yep, Aura systems has an EVA system but it's a prototype. Electronic valve actuation, kind of like a subwoofer driver with coilspring assist. But is is still being developed, we (WWU) couldn't get one for a university research project, so it is probably a while before you can get one..... Looks promising though.. Seth Allen Bellingham, WA > > From ehernan3 at ford.com Thu Mar 28 17:36:57 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:36:57 GMT Subject: TEC Message-ID: Andrew Broadhurst wrote: "If I were them, I'd sue GM too. I'm are currently using an Electromotive multi-coil ignition system on a '66 Coronet." I missed the thread of this system. Can you tell me more about it? I have a '63 Chevy Impala SS that I'm making grandoise plans for. Email me privately if you think you're repeating yourself to the list. From ehernan3 at ford.com Thu Mar 28 17:48:59 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:48:59 GMT Subject: Independent cylinder knock control Message-ID: "This is available now in the aftermarket from J&S. I use their box with Bosch sensor. It can retard each cylinder selectively and you end up with separate timing curves for ea cylinder. Or it can retard all the same." Can you describe your ignition system? The two extremes I imagine are 1) single coil distributor system or 2) crank triggered coil per plug. How does J&S box control each cylinder if it isn't option 2)? Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Thu Mar 28 18:07:13 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:07:13 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: Item Subject: cc:Mail Text Thanks Ed for the detailed tutorial one coil per cylinder. Werner From gtk110 at psu.edu Thu Mar 28 18:46:14 1996 From: gtk110 at psu.edu (gtk110 at psu.edu) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:46:14 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: > As far as the short leads >to the plug goes, the coolest by far is to have the coil mount/attach >directly to the end of the plug... no wire as such. Yes, good idea, but would'nt the coil then gain an excess of heat that it really do better without? Unless you're talking about the epoxyed style type similar to the ones Ford uses....but wouldn't heat also affect these too? Gannon gtk110 at email.psu.edu "Gripping the wheel, his knuckles went white with desire...the wheels of his Mustang exploded on the highway like a slug from a .45... True death... 400 horsepower, maximum performance piercing the night... This is BLACK SUNSHINE!" From gtk110 at psu.edu Thu Mar 28 18:51:03 1996 From: gtk110 at psu.edu (gtk110 at psu.edu) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:51:03 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: > >4) Combustion sensing. You can read the resistance across the gap >after firing the plug and determine if you misfired or if it the flame >went out. You can then strike the plug again until you are satisfied >that you've burnt everything! Jacob's Electronics claim they can do >this with one coil firing many cylinders, Do you know any more about the Jacob's Electronics stuff you referred to here? Gannon gtk110 at email.psu.edu "Gripping the wheel, his knuckles went white with desire...the wheels of his Mustang exploded on the highway like a slug from a .45... True death... 400 horsepower, maximum performance piercing the night... This is BLACK SUNSHINE!" From rodb at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 28 18:57:51 1996 From: rodb at cs.ubc.ca (Rod Barman) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:57:51 GMT Subject: TEC Message-ID: > Does anyone know if this was licensed or simply stolen from Electromotive? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha .... I'll be smiling all day. Thanks --rod. From bowling at cebaf.gov Thu Mar 28 18:59:15 1996 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:59:15 GMT Subject: TEC Message-ID: ~ ~ If I were them, I'd sue GM too. I'm are currently using an Electromotive ~ multi-coil ignition system on a '66 Coronet. I happened to be in a GM dealer ~ about a month ago, and I noticed the very same ignition system on a brand-new ~ Aurora. Looking further around the showroom, I came to the conclusion that ~ GM must have bought the Electromotive ignition system. Does anyone know if ~ this was licensed or simply stolen from Electromotive? ~ ~ ~ --- R. Andrew Broadhurst ~ But are we sure that electromotive was the one who originally developed the idea and that they are in the position of suing someone else? Electromotive also stated to a friend of mine that they were going to pursue legal proceedings against Silicon Systems over the 67F687 chip. I kinda doubt that Electromotive was the original inventor of all of this technology. - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From fparker at umich.edu Thu Mar 28 20:12:39 1996 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank Parker) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:12:39 GMT Subject: VW Bosch injection Message-ID: > > I believe that all injected air-cooled VW's used Bosch CIS Mechanical > injection, which doesn't really have a "computer" at all. Just a temperature > sensor for the cold-start enrichment injector, and a mechanical metering > system. I have the same system on my '79 SAAB, and I have a '74 Beetle > which, well, hmm... is using dual Solex Carbs and no FI as yet. CIS is very > simple and reliable and works quite well, particularly in small 4 cylinder > engines. Bosch publishes an excellent book on their fuel injection systems, > and there is abundant information on CIS in the Bosch Automotive Handbook as > well. Another source of good information is the Robert Bentley official VW > service manuals. > > --- R. Andrew Broadhurst That is not true. Early VW fuel inj was "D" Jetronic which was speed density. Was installed first if I remember correct on mid 60's VW hatchback aircooled engines. Frank > > From fparker at umich.edu Thu Mar 28 20:42:52 1996 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank Parker) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:42:52 GMT Subject: Independent cylinder knock control Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, Edward Hernandez wrote: > "This is available now in the aftermarket from J&S. I use their box > with Bosch sensor. It can retard each cylinder selectively and you > end up with separate timing curves for ea cylinder. Or it can retard > all the same." > > Can you describe your ignition system? The two extremes I imagine are > 1) single coil distributor system or 2) crank triggered coil per plug. > How does J&S box control each cylinder if it isn't option 2)? > The system is very fast and uses DSP processing. It assumes that if it hears knock that it is from the last cylinder that fired , so it retards that cylinder the next time it fires. It works with the revision software that I have up to 7500 rpm. Last time I talked to designer, I believe he had a version that works up to 10,000 rpm. Mounting of the sensor is critical. There was a SAE paper of a few years ago about the best place to mount, the end result being down low on a rigid rail or boss. I mounted mine near oil pan railing, low and away from any valve train noise. The system has a analog output so you can monitor retard. Ouput of 0-1.25 volts corresponds to 20 deg of retard (max). I built a led monitor using a LM3914 ic to display the output. Also toke retard output and many others like fuel pressure and turbo boost etc and ran to datalogger and took data at 100 times/sec. Output in selective retard is a series of pulses, the amplitude proportional to retard. If I richened up fuel, I could see knock signal drop off, then out as I got a/f ratio correct. The system is super!! Frank Parker 93 Civic EX vtec custom turbo 89 S-10/much mod L-98 V-8 96 Contour SE From ehernan3 at ford.com Thu Mar 28 21:13:52 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:13:52 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: "Do you know any more about the Jacob's Electronics stuff you referred to here?" I don't have their catalogue with me. I seem to recall that they wrote a paper, too, but I'm not sure. I'll try to bring the 1-800 number to work tomorrow. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From jwills at ISI.EDU Thu Mar 28 21:27:32 1996 From: jwills at ISI.EDU (Jerry Wills) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 21:27:32 GMT Subject: Pneumatic Valve Actuators Message-ID: >>>>> "RAB" == Utgarhoth writes: RAB> All modern F1 engines use pneumatic valve actuators. This, of RAB> course, requires an air compressor on board, and some very fast, RAB> high-precision pneumatic valvegear. This allows them to vary the RAB> timing profiles and turn 16 to 18 thousand RPM and make RAB> rediculous amounts of power. Expect to pay half a million RAB> dollars to adapt your current engine, though. Pushrods and RAB> rocker arms are good for 8500-9000 RPM and overhead cams up to 12 RAB> or 14 thousand, if properly designed. I would stick to one of RAB> these conventional technologies. then there is the desmo system with openers and closers, Ducati motorcycle use them and their current rpm limit 13.500 rpm, and its from piston speed, not valve gear. The valves are ~30mm in size. RAB> As for solenoid or electro-hydraulic actuation, they have both RAB> been done. The real problem here, though, is the vast amount of RAB> energy required by the electrical circuts to power them at high RAB> RPM. and the reliability Jerry Wills I'll have enough POWER when I can spin the tires at the end of the straight! 89 FJ DERSLYR, DoD#500 KotF(Flag) Mark Donahue, about 917's USC/Information Sciences Institute (USC/ISI) SoCal (310) 822-1511 x 236 90's cowboys, ride iron horses, and punch Deer!!! You done violated Physics, BOY! Assume the position..... (Rider 5/92) From Utgarhoth at aol.com Thu Mar 28 22:05:09 1996 From: Utgarhoth at aol.com (Utgarhoth at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:05:09 GMT Subject: TEC (Ignition System) Message-ID: >I missed the thread of this system. Can you tell me more about it? I have a '63 Chevy >Impala SS that I'm making grandoise plans for.. Electromotive makes and sells a crank-triggered multi-coil ignition system. For V-8 applications, it uses 4 coils, one coil for every 2 cylinders. That gives the coil a much longer time to saturate than a typical single coil ignition system, typically resulting in greater spark energy. In a 4 cylinder engine, the same system can be used with a single coil per cylinder. I believe they also make a 3 coil model for 3 cylinder and 6 cylinder applications. Basically the same ignition system is used in their fuel injection driver, but the Coronet's fuel injection is being handled by a Haltech box, hence no need for the full TEC injection/ignition system. After working for some time in the engine compartment of a '66 Coronet, particularly mounting the multi-coil ignition and wiring it it, I was astonished to find an item of virtually the same size and shape mounted under the hood of a brand new Aurora on the sales floor of a GM dealer! I just assumed that GM had bought the rights to the design from Electromotive, but that may not be the actual case after all. For American cars, I am much more knowlegeable about Mopar engines and cars than GM, so I'm quickly headed into a grey area here speculating about the GM designs. Maybe someone who knows more about GM and GM electronics can offer some more input into this discussion. My comment came about someone mentioning a lawsuit between Electromotive and GM over their multi-coil ignition system. Maybe I should have included a bit more detail. Unfortunately I wiped out all my old mail messages and I'm not sure about the start of the thread either. Anyway, it's probably not that important. From 72614.557 at compuserve.com Thu Mar 28 22:26:16 1996 From: 72614.557 at compuserve.com (Jim Steck) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:26:16 GMT Subject: one coil / cylinder Message-ID: >To tell you the truth, I do not see any advantage of one coil per >cylinder over one coil per two cylinders. The exception being >extremly high RPM (10000+) motors. The proposals to date >have all involved much extra hardware and software complexity to >impliment. What justifies this? (Don't take that wrong. I do not see >how it is justified and I was wondering how the folks who are for it see >things) I must give it one thing: It looks really sharp! Not to mention >you can put the coil almost right on the plug to minimise RF emisions >and power lose to the plug. But anyway, were's the beef? Spark plugs wear faster when they're not firing a charge . . . not important unless you're trying to built a 100,000 between tune-ups engine. I can also cause problems in turbocharged engines with lots of cam overlap. There can be enough charge in the cylinder at the end of the exhaust cycle to fire . . . and then burn back into the intake. -Jim Steck AutoComponenti From Utgarhoth at aol.com Thu Mar 28 22:33:59 1996 From: Utgarhoth at aol.com (Utgarhoth at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:33:59 GMT Subject: VW Bosch injection Message-ID: >That is not true. Early VW fuel inj was "D" Jetronic which was speed >density. Was installed first if I remember correct on mid 60's VW >hatchback aircooled engines. >Frank Frank Parker may be right about the earliert "D" Jetronic '60 VW air cooled engine... I honestly haven't worked on one, and have never seen one. Most of my experience in VW's is limited to Beetles and Buses. It sure sounds interesting, though! The earliest VW with EFI *I* have seen is a '76 Super Beetle with CIS. I'm sure that the bus engine in question would be CIS, however, since it was also a late 70's model. --- Andrew From rmadursk at galaxy.galstar.com Thu Mar 28 22:49:43 1996 From: rmadursk at galaxy.galstar.com (Ron Madurski) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:49:43 GMT Subject: Switching from carb to FI on a Ford (fwd) Message-ID: : :The subject says it all, well most of it anyway. I want to get rid of :the old unreliable inefficient carb on my 84 F-150 4.9L. (It's my tow :vehicle so this is sort of Auto-X related). I don't see any reason why :I shouldn't be able to convert to a TBI system (Throttle Body Injection) :I just don't know where to start to look. : :So if anyone has done this to their vehicle I'd like to hear the pros :and cons of it based on your experiences. As well as your manufacturer :and cost. : :Thanks. : I got your address from one of the guys on the autocross list. I have subscribed and read the welcome and I think that this post fits in with the purpose of the list. I was also contemplating converting to an MSD type of ignition to totally elimanate the original ECU, it seems from the welcome that it may be possible to use the original ECU. One of the major problems I am having is with the EEC_IV system the ignition is electronically adjuting the timing. Since one or more of my sensors is spewing erroneous reading I have had to disconnect the SPOUT (or is it the SEA) connector and I just leave the timing advanced slightly from the Base timing. Base is 10deg and I have it advanced to 16deg. So, that said, any suggestions? -- Ron Madurski rmadursk at galaxy.galstar.com From jwills at ISI.EDU Thu Mar 28 22:50:03 1996 From: jwills at ISI.EDU (Jerry Wills) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:50:03 GMT Subject: VW Bosch injection Message-ID: >>>>> "Frank" == Frank Parker writes: Frank> That is not true. Early VW fuel inj was "D" Jetronic which was Frank> speed density. Was installed first if I remember correct on mid Frank> 60's VW hatchback aircooled engines. Thats where I got my first solenoid injectors from. Lots of resistors and caps in the box,analog wonder, just waiting to change valve with temp :^) Jerry Wills I'll have enough POWER when I can spin the tires at the end of the straight! 89 FJ DERSLYR, DoD#500 KotF(Flag) Mark Donahue, about 917's USC/Information Sciences Institute (USC/ISI) SoCal (310) 822-1511 x 236 From mrb at mpx.com.au Thu Mar 28 23:14:50 1996 From: mrb at mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 23:14:50 GMT Subject: Pneumatic Valve Springs ! Message-ID: At 11:56 AM 28/03/96 -0500, you wrote: >All modern F1 engines use pneumatic valve actuators. > > --- R. Andrew Broadhurst They use "air bags" instead of mechical valve springs. The pneumatics DO NOT ACTUATE THE VALVES. This is a very common misconception as demonstrated in this list !!!! regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. From gmd at tecinfo.com Thu Mar 28 23:21:48 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 23:21:48 GMT Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Message-ID: > > >At 09:52 PM 3/26/96 GMt, I wrote: >>> If you send me a postage paid self addressed box, I will send you a >couple of the >>> caddy injectors. I think you would give them a good home. >> >At 09:52 PM 3/26/96 GMT, Jim Staff wrote: >>I'm wondering if I could get in on the same deal, Also it's tax deductable I'm >>connected to a school to! All I need is your address, and I'll have school >send >>you a prepaid padded envelope (Better than a box). >> >>What is the PSI preference and the flow rate of these injectors? >> >> Thanks, >> Jim Staff >>___________________________________________________________________________ >____________ >>My address and Phone number are as follows: > >George M. Dailey >507 california Street >Greenville, Mississippi 38701 >601-332-3634 > >The injectors are (two types) DK 181247 and 1181281. the latter is stamped >Bendix but they all look identical. All of the injectors came off of a '76 & >'78 Caddy with, I think, a 350cid engine. BTW, for those DIY_FIers who were >discussing exotic triggering methods for FI systems, this system used two >reed switches at the base of the distributer and a revolving magnet! I think >the injectors operate at 32psi and flow 21lbs/hr (don't quote me on this) >Ahhh... "tax deductable" two words that go great together. Make sure those >school administrators include the proper (blank) tax documentation in the >padded envelope and I'll throw in a map sensor or two! > >GMD > > From allnight at everett.net Fri Mar 29 00:56:34 1996 From: allnight at everett.net (Johnny) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:56:34 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: gtk110 at psu.edu wrote: > > > As far as the short leads > >to the plug goes, the coolest by far is to have the coil mount/attach > >directly to the end of the plug... no wire as such. > > Yes, good idea, but would'nt the coil then gain an excess of heat that it > really do better without? Unless you're talking about the epoxyed style > type similar to the ones Ford uses....but wouldn't heat also affect these too? Well, this is the 90's after all. I would think that heat could be engineered around. If I recall correctly (which rarely happens anymore) the first engines to use the integral coil were air cooled. Talk about heat. -j- From mymove at serv01.net-link.net Fri Mar 29 01:00:17 1996 From: mymove at serv01.net-link.net (William Sarkozy) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:00:17 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: At 06:43 PM 3/27/96 -0800, you wrote: > First off, introductions. My name is Terry Faugno. I work in San >Diego, California at a company called Qualcomm Inc. We researched, >developed, and are now marketing digital cellular telephony equipment. My >interest in DIY EFI is based on a passion for performance, and a love of >tinkering. > My ultimate goal is to find a Porsche 911/912 or 944 or a 924, >install either a Buick 231 V6 or a small block Chevy engine, and fabricate a >SMPI fuel delivery system, super or turbocharger, and, as you'll read below, >a constantly variable valvetrain system. My desire is to see how much >horsepower can be derived from a smallish engine (300 CID maximum), without >sacrificing engine longevity. I selected the Porsche body(ies) as it has an >inbuilt capability for high performance, and they're quite stylish to boot. > > Now the off-topic, but related post mentioned in the subject header: > > I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system >that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the >valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to >start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a >limitless variety of "virtual camshaft" profiles, like Honda's VTEC, or any >of the available variable valve timing schemes. Only more so, as one is not >limited to 2 profiles. > That's the gist of my question. Thank you in advance for any >information that any of the subscribers to this list might provide. > > Thanx, > Terry > > > Check out the lates issue of TURBO & HI-TECH PERFORMANCE magazine. They ran an article about an organization which builds Porsche/Chevrolet hybrids. They're smog legal as well. From prasad at ada.com Fri Mar 29 01:03:57 1996 From: prasad at ada.com (Krishna Prasad) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:03:57 GMT Subject: Pneumatic Valve Springs ! Message-ID: >They use "air bags" instead of mechical valve springs. The pneumatics DO NOT >ACTUATE THE VALVES. How do the valves open and close ? Can anyone explain how the Pneumatic Valves work. It can be addressed just to prasad at ada.com if you feel its outside DIYFI stuff.. Thanks Krishna From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Fri Mar 29 01:12:44 1996 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:12:44 GMT Subject: VW Bosch injection Message-ID: >>That is not true. Early VW fuel inj was "D" Jetronic which was speed >>density. Was installed first if I remember correct on mid 60's VW >>hatchback aircooled engines. > >>Frank > >Frank Parker may be right about the earliert "D" Jetronic '60 VW air cooled >engine... I honestly haven't worked on one, and have never seen one. Most of >my experience in VW's is limited to Beetles and Buses. It sure sounds >interesting, though! The earliest VW with EFI *I* have seen is a '76 Super >Beetle with CIS. I'm sure that the bus engine in question would be CIS, >however, since it was also a late 70's model. Perhaps I'm getting my acronyms confused here, but isn't CIS really just a sort of 'sophisticated' mechanical injection system ?? - ie not 'electronic' (EFI) at all ?? (I'm new to this group, so forgive my ignorance). My understanding is that D-Jetronic was the first true production EFI system and was used over here in such cars as the Volvo 164E. It differed from the later L-Jetronic system in a number of significant ways: 1. A 'MAP' sensor was used to determine engine load. 2. A separate pair of mechanical 'points' installed in the distributor were used to trigger the injectors 3. The injectors were fired in groups. In the case of the 6 cylinder 164E this was in two groups of 3. 4. The TPS was designed to sense throttle 'rate' as well as idle and WOT. 5. The injectors delivered the full amount required by each cylinder in one 'hit' as opposed the the L-Jetronic system where the amount is delivered in two 'lots'. This also meant that the injectors for the D-Jetronic system were designed for a higher flow rate. I know a bit about the D-Jetronic system as a couple of years ago I adapted it to run on a Nissan Skyline (2.8L, 6-cylinder). It didn't work very well, but I didn't have the time to sort out the bugs and it got shelved. Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From dzorde at aesprodata.com.au Fri Mar 29 01:42:16 1996 From: dzorde at aesprodata.com.au (dzorde at aesprodata.com.au) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:42:16 GMT Subject: injector pulse width Message-ID: >Per Frank "Choco" Munday's book, TPFI, he states that 305/350 injectors >will work reasonably well if exchanged as a complete set. This refers to >the MAF type TPI systems up to '89, and exclude your '85 baby (even though >it's MAF equiped). His book only covers the '86-'89 models, but I think the >injector swaping rule will apply to your system also since it's a MAF type. >Choco goes on to say that he can not tell the difference below 4,500rpm. >Thats big in small and small in big. > >There are differences in the operating pressures. Per chilton, 44psi for >5.0 & 37psi for 5.7 >22lbs/hr flow rate for the 350 per Ben Watsons chevy fuel injection book (no >305 data). >BTW guys, The '89 TPI in my '58 is running great! All bugs have been worked >out and I've clocked over 600 trouble free city miles already. The R700 is >comming soon. >Dan, if you can give the symtoms, I sure one of us gurus could help. >Good luck >GMD Thanx for the info. The system is infact of a TPI of a 305 '85 F-body according to the fuel rail number. However the system is now MAP sensing. Can anyone confirm that what I have done seem right. I have the ECU water temp sensor mounted in one of the three holes in the front of the manifold, the air temp sensor is mounted in the hole on the underside at the back of the plenumb chamber, and the MAP ensor vacuum line is taken of the back corner of the plenumb chamber. The cam is: inlet - open 23 deg, close 61 deg (I think) exhaust - open 68 deg, close 26 deg (I think) The engine only seem to run evenly at a stoic of 11.5, CO=5%-7% (very rich) at idle. When you try and improve on this and actually load up the engine, the engine starts to jerk around quite violently and only seem to settle down slightly in the low rpm range when you give it lots of fuel. Is it possible to calculate a theoretical fuel map for my computer, either a VE value or an inject time pulse width for the rpm range that we can follow ? If this is possible can someone please send me the formulas ? By the way, I'm using the old type HEI dizzy, and when we checked the ignition, it looked like one bank of the engine had a problem (the pulses were not all level, but went up and down and up and down) but I have been told that the wrong air/fuel ratio can cause this. Anyone have any ideas ? Is it a timing problem ? Is it a fuel problem ? Much help needed here Dan dzorde at aesprodata.com.au From JVP at qsi.com Fri Mar 29 02:14:44 1996 From: JVP at qsi.com (Jim Pearl) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:14:44 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... I know I know!!! Message-ID: Electromotive is the company that's currently working this!!! They're local and in one of their latest catalogs I spotted this system being tested on a VW motor. It's also been written up in Turbo magazine. It uses one of their FI boxes to run it, pretty neat! ---------- >From: Stephen Lamb[SMTP:lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au] Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 1996 11:09 PM To: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: Terry Faugno Subject: Re: Off topic, but related subject matter... > I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system >that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the >valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to >start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a >limitless variety of "virtual camshaft" profiles, like Honda's VTEC, or any >of the available variable valve timing schemes. Only more so, as one is not >limited to 2 profiles. I think it was Renault (?) that developed a pneumatically operated valve system for their F1 engines some years back. Don't know much about it or how successful it was. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C<#`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`&0!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F`!X,`0````4```!33510```` M`!X`'PP!````# ```$I64$!14TDN0T]-``,`!A#H"!-;`P`'$ 8$```>``@0 M`0```&4```!%3$5#5%)/34]4259%25-42$5#3TU004Y95$A!5%-#55)214Y4 M3%E73U)+24Y'5$A)4U1(15E214Q/0T%,04Y$24Y/3D5/1E1(14E23$%415-4 M0T%404Q/1U-)4U!/5%1%1%1(``````(!"1 !````)P4``",%``!C" ``3%I& M=;6&6W[_``H!#P(5`J@%ZP*#`% "\@D"`&-H"L!S970R-P8`!L,"@S(#Q0(` M<')"<1'B?,C4U`H '"H$- ML0M@;F@(!@@= @N 9=\F at B@` M$; $("&[1B. !N#&> >1)E @P["P@$U 1P'0>,"' 'G &(0J%"HML M:3$X,,$"T6DM,30T#? ,T/,NHPM9,38*H -@$] PPP,$9& M?0-A.C'.,$8,@@8`$]!P$QV@`Z!,80;06U--&%10. at M@!M!S0$B 3U1"3$LN M9!/ +F\W8 W "?!C*4!G;^!V+F%U73%O,GT&8#<",#.O-+M7"8 AP'-D-&%Y M*^!-"L 1<" R0C M,$8X@!AG;F]%'SG.=6)JIQRA1S\TNU)E3$!/#="1*T%P:6,KX&)U!4#W%Z B M at B%@ D= J%/K]5 MLQ>@"U$X$!ZA-A!S$8#_`8 $( /P'9 =PT\@!) =P7L", -@;!R03[$&\ GP M;\YI-W K0@#0='4BD1V"?5BF=@= '3$

P/QR0!!%>, B!+$$A\2)V[R)072$#(%H&(F<"+G!H<>LKX"X`:QU M2 (@/3 >D?!65$5#8.,>$5BF(?3_(3!>, ,0`: 4S]H,1^Q!/ = MH >!)H!/;O\?,01@(+$G$"O at 7Q$ALAUA_4FP=&>K(_(G(!'@:J90W?,C@!_A M;FLKL1]07Q%.((IN.(!L!4 H/RE5I/U7BG AP%5 'G!ATA\Q5]'_7J CXEXS M"H4D=64A*E8<8,]#\2DA)%%6L2!Y5.$$($IB`-!K)H @1 (@)_,%0&$S;74] ML0&@"& %0+=U006P"H5H85%/T&-9P=QS9D.0=350W4,=H 20KG-0[#6*"H5$ M-:!T)H"/(?#?C?(!35$\KX)!!35),"H4U,#Y0ODP%L =Q at A()T7'V1 at 0` M=U;Q`X$$($()\"%@)?!)ZD-3\#,!T#<4L"F at 7I&7+@!GEDD0;$Q *S8<8)0S M(#Y ,CY0-S49T(F&IF%XB?PP.#ES[?1:0XA (RXA4.R.GU&/+U*?,((*A1;! M`),@``,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! `` 5`#T``0````4```!213H@`````!06 ` end From JVP at qsi.com Fri Mar 29 02:21:35 1996 From: JVP at qsi.com (Jim Pearl) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:21:35 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: In case you're interested - there's a company written up in Turbo magazine this month that's doing V8 conversions for the 911 bodystyle. It uses a remote mounted water pump and some strange accessory routing but overall it looks great! Let me know if you'd like more details, I might even be able to find the Electromotive info but you'd be better off calling or writing them, I'll look for the number - I've seen it posted recently I think... ---------- >From: Terry Faugno[SMTP:tfaugno at qualcomm.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 1996 12:43 PM To: DIY_EFI at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... First off, introductions. My name is Terry Faugno. I work in San Diego, California at a company called Qualcomm Inc. We researched, developed, and are now marketing digital cellular telephony equipment. My interest in DIY EFI is based on a passion for performance, and a love of tinkering. My ultimate goal is to find a Porsche 911/912 or 944 or a 924, install either a Buick 231 V6 or a small block Chevy engine, and fabricate a SMPI fuel delivery system, super or turbocharger, and, as you'll read below, a constantly variable valvetrain system. My desire is to see how much horsepower can be derived from a smallish engine (300 CID maximum), without sacrificing engine longevity. I selected the Porsche body(ies) as it has an inbuilt capability for high performance, and they're quite stylish to boot. Now the off-topic, but related post mentioned in the subject header: I've heard rumours that a company somewhere had developed a system that replaces camshafts with computer controlled solenoids to actuate the valve train. Has anyone here heard the same, or know a logical point to start searching from? From a performance standpoint, one could program a limitless variety of "virtual camshaft" profiles, like Honda's VTEC, or any of the available variable valve timing schemes. Only more so, as one is not limited to 2 profiles. That's the gist of my question. Thank you in advance for any information that any of the subscribers to this list might provide. Thanx, Terry begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B,#`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`&0!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F`' ``0```"T```!2 M13H at 3V9F('1O<&EC+"!B=70@18)P`!X,`0`` M``4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````# ```$I64$!14TDN0T]-``,`!A!S!,NG M`P`'$+D&```>``@0`0```&4```!)3D-!4T593U5214E.5$5215-4140M5$A% M4D5304-/35!!3EE74DE45$5.55!)3E154D)/34%'05I)3D542$E334].5$A4 M2$%44T1/24Y'5CA#3TY615)324].4T9/4E1(13DQ``````(!"1 !````0 <` M`#P'``#@"P``3%I&=3'2?=__``H!#P(5`J@%ZP*#`% "\@D"`&-H"L!S970R M-P8`!L,"@S(#Q0(`<')"<1'B?,C4U`H '"H$-L0M@;F0A@ M)ST7H" +@!/0%Z 3P60 at 4"T@=&@=H2<$(&&''* #< JP;GD@=P40(P) "? @ M=7 =82!4BPAP!N @`,!G87H+@%\T6YV!) `D (@!"#'`A %P!Y!(#DQ'& &X,)D$[%Y;&4N'' %0'YU$; > MHA>@!& 3T"%Q=1L=@1X`=R(`!) @<'7K'P`>L&X>`',#0;R,1!T #(!^ (!`&QI:R8"'4$-L &0&0,0&YK+C@`"H4*BRR0,00X M, +1:2TQ-#3/#? ,T#H3"UDQ- at J@`V#_$] P`!X0/#<*ASKK## [MOI&`V$Z M/3X[M at R"(# $D"$HT49A=6U4;T6O0"M$24!97T5&24 %H'6+%S &T"X)\&P"(` M'KDR at AWQ]E%"I1QQ8R3P1X EH1&P>TA""8 L"H4-L",0%S!P_V)Q)T,*P#41 M*]$`P%V $<#](G)D+? ?@ = '*!5$ I QPM@(\%5$&5P: (@'T#^94*0!2 ' M@ (P6Y(*A1UVWR "3:$OP$WP7")B',$>`'\"(!ZQ"K $$"-1(Y-C<'+_(Z$# M at 2B 8Z4J83"!,D *A?\I,2RP!1!.L0J%689;L4Y _RDP5@$P#DR-&*6=PN 3S$J$64?@!Y1'K%" MI6;P8S20,C,<8%9)`%UQXW,`P"H1`F!O="%#?1Y0=F:Q&J @\6.D0B!BMP40 M'+ E\6$*A4' 4"W ?F8*4 ,@#; LD",1'T!SWQ.S+:!5@&KQ,O)T(%(1 =P)Q IWRV@`_ >0"D1"H5S`- & M at 5]4@")RA*47,"@A=A^ >7]=(A&P+^(=\2/B<'8D8BCY")!S*7MR*D$1@!ZA M7@:_"X I@ ,0!4 ,GD=,O]FX27Q)**$8B\1 M!N EX%:-W5F&3BO1(^(R02U47QX`_S:2*W$","-1'?$@$2/B58;W'E!\0 20 M.I#_680UPY8A_PL@): G$ AA;[$A\1ZY)Y+^=QY2BV$>`&,7=.(3LSB67YDS M%Z +42B!'*%MA'!A_P& !""&0A[3*2""@@(A`V#/8),GD"30*\!I9&^S`-#_ M>E!O$AY!"H5^HQXP?P(D\/Y(BX,=`"$!FG288Y5C6_'_+: %L2NS; )E0#*! M-H$=KP2V@ M+)-(`B!'X!Z15OA414.D4Q\A"H6LD2/B_F%^$ ,0?E5^.FSQ+> B@>=PH@>! M)/!/;C=A+.,GD/][8Z+B(5$KP(:FJW.)@B" ]Q'@K?9MGE0A]"/B94!:0_\@ MD!] 0I =P2-1)/"X`3?@_QSR( )\0'X0J-(CHJ_X,++_:T%;0IDE'S&PE56! M!/(U8?]OLR$SA%$K82WS.[&(H VPYY#OP5^WMFYX8I;#C[>'_T$";:U6G%:? M5Z]8O J%%L$"`,KP`P`0$ `````#`!$0`````$ `!S `WR\('AV[`4 `"# ` =WR\('AV[`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B `````6=H` ` end From JVP at qsi.com Fri Mar 29 02:25:27 1996 From: JVP at qsi.com (Jim Pearl) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:25:27 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: My biggest interest would be to find a system that would allow me to fire my EFI HO Ford motor on a waste spark system. I've been told by a guy here that he's done this using some weird rotor out of another Ford application that would fire the opposing cylinders. Since this guy is 90% B.S. I've never been sure he was right and frankly I'd think the spark would take the least resistive path anyway... Any ideas? I'm using an Accell 300+ system now after my MSD died (5 years old). So far I've not gotten it out on a dry road while running right (plug problem) but I can tell you it ran poorly without the MSD - it was very noticeable. Couldn't even spin the tires in second from a roll much less third. Power was way down... I think the Accell has restored the power and it's tiny - very nice! ---------- >From: Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544[SMTP:CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com] Sent: Thursday, March 28, 1996 4:31 AM To: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Folks, Just thinking. The MSD units go to single spark at around 3k, right? If I am not mistaken, all of these units only use one coil to fire up to eight cylinders. Therefore, the COIL is still firing four times per revolution anyway. Almost all of the ignition systems proposed to date only fire at the most once per rev (wasted spark systems). Some even want to use one coil per cylinder! It would appear that we should be able to implement a multispark system that goes to much higher revs than the MSD unit. How many sparks per event would depend upon the coil charge and discharge time, but we all want to charge with real high currents anyway.... Just some thoughts on the subject. As an aside to this, there has been a lot of bandwidth spent on the subject of one coil per cylinder. To tell you the truth, I do not see any advantage of one coil per cylinder over one coil per two cylinders. The exception being extremly high RPM (10000+) motors. The proposals to date have all involved much extra hardware and software complexity to impliment. What justifies this? (Don't take that wrong. I do not see how it is justified and I was wondering how the folks who are for it see things) I must give it one thing: It looks really sharp! Not to mention you can put the coil almost right on the plug to minimise RF emisions and power lose to the plug. But anyway, were's the beef? Clint ccorbin at intel7.intel.com begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(BH#`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`&0!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F';L!'@!P``$````H````4D4Z($UU M;'1I)S=&5M`H,SMP+D!Q,"@S02S!3%?0J BPC/"=D[%Y\R-34"@ <*@0VQ M"V!N9S$P,V\44 L*%6(,`6,`0 70>> @8FEG9P>0!4 +@)<3T!>@'0%W"&!L M9!R at P&4@=&\@9 at N '@#X82!S$[,>0!& ':8'0'\7, ?@!X >1!>@(& 4 7 `B >P7=A%Q/!'N *L6L>Y2X at 2?PG=AXP'B ) M\!Y!'?(T&=U')!H'6$?5"6 .B<$(&0"("6R! `@=9\`D!J@'N #``-@(C-U!4!O9A[ 3FXB("6!(;1A< M0:?IC'X!I(G$?:2#3*2$B M8.4IT&\G(V-Y*? >H 20ZG,CX%,+@&,FI25")N& .3 E($(N4R/E[R:0)" % MP"13>3/0$: B8!WP*2SA'F%_"L$NM"(@)3 B(!/0`Z!I9RBA*)(B at F1R M') #8&&='@!W)M SP"@0=6X#`&LG03!T* M0=2=0$U!O^P)@$^ I'* HD2%P M*A D@;TW8GD(8#P2,2$TL&\%L+\Q80/P'V H at BN".3(M/!+_,#(O(1R0*0$J M`#/0/T$CX',(41WP;B<%0"\1+Y%P_PN *W,J,!UQ'2$>X 61,.//`W >P0-@ M-W%M=1%P,['O!!$FP0L@(^!0($ I03 R\S5!)F%W;C5R(7 QV#0M9,38*H"@A!9 %0"U?4C<*AU#K##!1MD8#83I_4SY1M at R" M1$ L<1Y0`Z!,740RD2]')+)5$%!A$QS@!< P-5 @ M6U--`%10.D-#3U)""$E.0%J05$5,-Y(N'3)L+ at 6@;5U2WY]3[09@`C!5'U8K M5&@(<'1S9#50+ 70"L!'H3(".&!P,3DY-B T9#HS'&!!35O?4^U43F]>'U8K M.7!Y7PW :4Y !: =X -P8BX)\&?D+F\FT&\M$\ ?@$0 at C0F =6'_7.YU8FI1 M\3MD'U8K31W@*C C)71UWPW0,,,I%$'2,)%S3C]/0WPS-E"W%%$+\E17!O!K M]',L;IQ*)Q!"$C'Q)S'_(^!?X4)4/> \("V1'F >47\G(CVA(R0?@0K "& > MH3/>:V!P,',V0$Z622C0(7"V83A"!4!M-%$S06Y@"<"E!^PJ%%Z!V!O HD"I"-15SL+Q!; 1@'0%Y M&!T at 9W1A_RI"'O2 D0-@*^%+PAY at 8$#_$] *A7I#(-,?@2N"@L,"('\M,8"R M at 6$YL"+#'@`C*G/_.H$ZH2!Q1.(*A2+ `C >0M=ZFX"R+%8A<[!)'Y^ J4_]Z]0J%$7(< MX###.7 $\)F$_X!28' _HHZ1>1*+!IEU0;+_-!$'0)-#F/<(@`C $(/\U M%W.ADA[ `) -L!Y"_R;"?E,OTC!!)%,>T!

("L1ZA_R%P2/-&@09Q)T&_8BN"`A#_<;$]81Y at N")^ M$3P2JT at QTMYGB;"^$D> '0%G-((\(M\FE!J@:H"-,A$J00J%0)) `G!"!7L3_P= @L,P=)A%/L.2T at N !W#S! `> M,%)&1-!X<2I!GI+^9 J%3#07,'FQHS/+U'.A_D(HD3448'!(L28R*X(D47QF M/VZ<5O.9!@6A5]% _ULS6QENG&Z?;Z]PO J%%L$"`-E@``,`$! ``````P`1 M$ ````! ```#T``0````4```!213H@ &`````%+\ ` end From gmd at tecinfo.com Fri Mar 29 02:38:23 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:38:23 GMT Subject: injector pulse width Message-ID: Martin, I brought this book from Clasic MotorBooks 1-800-826-6600. The book is titled "Small Block Chevrolet Tuned Port Fuel Injection" Published by Graffiti, and part of (I guess) there "Hot Rodder's Handbook" series Copyright 1995 in Australia. It's the most consise book I've read, on exactly what it takes to make these systems work in other vehicles. Very good. It's full of little tidbits like what gear you need to run the big HEI distributer on an '89 TPI with a roller cam. ISBN 0 949398 01 2 The "build from scratch" project is temporarly stalled. Two reasons, TPI in the truck new lover in my life. I have big plans for the project and I will keep fellow hackers informed. GMD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- At 08:03 AM 3/28/96 -0800, you wrote: > > >On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, George M. Dailey wrote: >> >> Per Frank "Choco" Munday's book, TPFI, he states that 305/350 injectors will >> work reasonably well if exchanged as a complete set. This refers to the MAF > >George- > >Can you tell me a little more about this book? I didn't see it on the >DIY_EFI reading list. > >"uudecode" is a program to decode certain Mac(?) files. You can get a >decoding program by ftp from oak.oakland.edu, or from other ftp sites. >Some versions of Winzip also will decode uuencoded files. > >How goes the "build from scratch" project? > >Martin Scarr > > From Frank_Mallory at srs.blkcat.com Fri Mar 29 02:43:05 1996 From: Frank_Mallory at srs.blkcat.com (Frank Mallory) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:43:05 GMT Subject: EFI for Bosch mech. injection Message-ID: d> * From: ricrain at airmail.net (Ric Rainbolt) >Does anybody have any info on adapting the late-'60s Bosch mechanical >injection >to EFI? I understand it has been done in Germany. > d>I understand that the later Bosch mechanical systems had closed loop d>operation utilizing an O2 sensor and a "fuel frequency" valve. This d>valves d>duty cycle was varied by an analog circuit to achieve the desired d>level of d>enrichment. At some throttle level, the closed loop is defeated and d>the d>system returns to the preset levels prescibed by the air mass plate. I think maybe you have the later Bosch CIS system in mind. Bosch started off with a mechanical gas FI in 1954 (used on the Mercedes 300SL); then they went to the D-Jetronic system with "brain box" in 1971; then to the mechanical CIS system; finally to CIS with closed-loop control. There is no air mass plate on the early mechanical systems. When applying closed-loop control to the earlier mechanical systems, I believe that control is effectuated via the barometric compensator, which can be used to vary the position of the control rack in the pump and thus vary the amount injected. From Frank_Mallory at srs.blkcat.com Fri Mar 29 02:43:06 1996 From: Frank_Mallory at srs.blkcat.com (Frank Mallory) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:43:06 GMT Subject: attachment questions Message-ID: d> Thanks Will, I got your attached file in the following format. d>---------------------------------------------------------------------- d>------ d>------------ d>The following is an attached File item from cc:Mail. It contains d>eight bit information which had to be encoded to insure successful d>trans- d>mission through various mail systems. To decode the file use the d>UUDECODE d>program. d>--------------------------------- Cut Here d>--------------------------------- d>begin 644 serset.exe d>M35IP 0X 7 9 "8$)J3$ 0! !%!P ' +, #( S0 -( #D d>M Z0 .X 0 !0$ H! = 0 (@$ " 0 @P$ )8! "@ 0 TP$ .T! / @ *P( #4" !- @ 5P( d>M )@" "N @ LP( +@" #' @ X@( .<" #L @ , , $4# !* P d>Blah blah blah.... d>What or where can I find UUDECODE? I take it, you are using cc-Mail? d>Is the attached file an executable file? There's a PD program UUEXE... floating around; I have it on this BBS, if you would care to go to the trouble of downloading it or obtaining it via Fidonet file request. But I'me sure you can find it on any of the large FTP servers. I've gone to the trouble of applying UUDECODE or MIME to some of these messages and found that what you get out of it is a message in WordPerfect or some other word processor format. So unless you have the appropriate word processor, you can't read it even after going to the trouble of decoding it. For the life of Ime, I can't figure out why they don't simply output their message in ASCII and save everybody the trouble. From JVP at qsi.com Fri Mar 29 02:53:37 1996 From: JVP at qsi.com (Jim Pearl) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:53:37 GMT Subject: Independent cylinder knock control Message-ID: I've heard of the J&S system - it sounded great and if not for my DFI.... Currently I use a GM sensor hooked into my DFI. I was told to mount it on the HEAD (!) and am pretty sure I'm getting false knock from the valvetrain. The sensor uses a small box from GM between it and the computer. I've seen monitoring boxes for turbo GNs and would love to adapt one for my system. Anyone have any ideas? I just want to know when it's thinking it sees knock without having to use my laptop. I've done some electronics work but it's been years and most of the little bit of design knowledge I had has drained away.. TIA! ---------- >From: Frank Parker[SMTP:fparker at umich.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 28, 1996 9:43 AM To: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Independent cylinder knock control On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, Edward Hernandez wrote: > "This is available now in the aftermarket from J&S. I use their box > with Bosch sensor. It can retard each cylinder selectively and you > end up with separate timing curves for ea cylinder. Or it can retard > all the same." > > Can you describe your ignition system? The two extremes I imagine are > 1) single coil distributor system or 2) crank triggered coil per plug. > How does J&S box control each cylinder if it isn't option 2)? > The system is very fast and uses DSP processing. It assumes that if it hears knock that it is from the last cylinder that fired , so it retards that cylinder the next time it fires. It works with the revision software that I have up to 7500 rpm. Last time I talked to designer, I believe he had a version that works up to 10,000 rpm. Mounting of the sensor is critical. There was a SAE paper of a few years ago about the best place to mount, the end result being down low on a rigid rail or boss. I mounted mine near oil pan railing, low and away from any valve train noise. The system has a analog output so you can monitor retard. Ouput of 0-1.25 volts corresponds to 20 deg of retard (max). I built a led monitor using a LM3914 ic to display the output. Also toke retard output and many others like fuel pressure and turbo boost etc and ran to datalogger and took data at 100 times/sec. Output in selective retard is a series of pulses, the amplitude proportional to retard. If I richened up fuel, I could see knock signal drop off, then out as I got a/f ratio correct. The system is super!! Frank Parker 93 Civic EX vtec custom turbo 89 S-10/much mod L-98 V-8 96 Contour SE begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C0#`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`&0!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F`' ``0```"<```!213H at 26YD M97!E;F1E;G0 at 8WEL:6YD97(@:VYO8VL at 8V]N=')O; ```@%Q``$````6```` M`;L=(LB<<'+[;HC<$<^5\D1%4U0`````'@`># $````%````4TU44 `````> M`!\,`0````P```!*5E! 45-)+D-/30`#``80D\NZHP,`!Q"0!P``'@`($ $` M``!E````259%2$5!4D1/1E1(14HF4U-94U1%32U)5%-/54Y$141'4D5!5$%. 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H MY /P'6 (8 5 -%$H0I\C<2'B('$+8 4P;W NA8YD,K(>H > (&5L!9!;*B O M46,$(#%P<"& '+!B)6)W'4 - ML "09P. at -D([L&2_* `AL1& '1 1@ 0 at 9"HR%1[Q821 >2#Q5$E!CB$*A0J+ M/O Q.# "T>!I+3$T- WP#-!$D_D+63$V"J #8!/0.] >0%]&MPJ'16L,,$8V M1 at -A.K]'OD8V#())00!P*2!0"L !(Q!R6U--5% Z(Q- 2^- =6T\(&@N^0F M=5U'7TAM!F ",$F?ETJK*I (<',R8'DL!= C"L 1<" R.%)0,3F .38 at .3HT M,Q2P9DU-OTAM5&]/_TJK9,AI>5\-P&E !: QD$T#<&)-8!J at +F\W0&]V+1/ M'U!E36)3WT[.=9QB:CO!5?]*JU)E7& Z21[1< GP#; E,6-Y?S[P'M$%P"CD M!: ", -@;/-"OT/#,S9%-Q11"_)&-OU at K$\#H%'14E!2T%)B4P/94E!%9"1 M'0%(!)$?@2QE>B0P1D(Z8*P^(/XB*I $`!Y@*W$IT ,0`:#O/S$V4 at N '5-A M`8 $D # ?TOQ(!$I4AVA) (AXAUA:<\%P"P29[<%DP`Z =Y#4P*I(L\/DC@&5X*B 3X >1(< ' M<+QA9T&Q'W 7H&>W,29P_P"0&J _,06@`Q%7T!/ >5'O+D %L1WE!;$R)G % M`$N2_7Z19R@`%Z%^!%[ !< +4/9U6/!GMT at V83L`!Y$=HC\L$F U;QT?P1YQ M! !N)^\E<04P>D)_P#]W?BJ3'?3[:'$"'6 ?4834'-)S_PJ%*.2*](42*3 at +8#617T?_BO-$8("R M4E >H!YB;K2*U/\*A8Y9:5%[@7,"'+ ><8\R_G-N(SQB/$%M(AUB%Z Y0/\` MD'I2'3 L\'RQD(I XARALW(!(W$W-40P;J!P,['>3(ARDF,AP &0;",2(W'_ M/]0$D%)0(< LT#[PE( -)N H06&:MTQ-,SE$D!Y@ M8_^8TP0`"U$@@!UBKZ0SP2B at _R. (W C$&ZFKZ4]\S2B( #OH$&+YC[PNK%F M"E"!(9,!_R=S+8,PHP;@/D(1P+BP'X+_2X&8TQ]0KU* D2UT(O' ,Y^:M at 5 M&L"70))B\7(!O7*9DEA2'1 N M\7\HU J%/_+(44& .G =(69_I),#H#CB)%$AP**0'V$O_[3Q'U!9,+-T.] J M=8>')W!=@4$A0JU+>F"L.5.00_-P8+BA15 at IP$9A<%316"L8*]AOV+/"K(% M%L$`W/ ``P`0$ `````#`!$0`````$ `!S" *L9E(AV[`4 `"#" *L9E(AV[ 7`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B `````%C,` ` end From CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com Fri Mar 29 03:12:56 1996 From: CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com (Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 03:12:56 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: >Several OEMs are doing this or designing engines that do this, namely, > one coil per spark plug. Where's the beef? > >1) No plug wires. Like someone correctly guessed in their post, if you > have no plug wires, you don't have to contend with RFI and losses >across the wires. You still have to contend with RFI and losses within >the coil itself, but that's an existing problem. You also eliminate >one connection when you eliminate the plug wires. That's one less >thing to breakdown and leave you stranded. Sure, you just added a >bunch of 12 volt wires to the each coil, but it's much easier to deal > with 12V than 12kV-45kV. I agree that this can only be done with one coil/cylinder >2) Spark energy. Firing once every two revs means you can charge >longer and deliver more energy per spark than firing three or four >times each rev. What is the saturation time of the coil? If you are charging at a fast rate, I still see no advantage with one coil/cylinder over one coil/two cylinders. >3) Multistrike/multiple spark. You can extend the multistrike rpm >range all the way to redline instead of have to go single strike at >3000-4000rpm. Even with one coil/two cylinders you stil have four times (on a 8 cylinder) the number of coils than the MSD has. Just how high do you need to take the motor anyway? >Now it gets really interesting... > >4) Combustion sensing. You can read the resistance across the gap >after firing the plug and determine if you misfired or if it the flame >went out. You can then strike the plug again until you are satisfied >that you've burnt everything! Jacob's Electronics claim they can do >this with one coil firing many cylinders, but imagine how much better >you can do it if you have an independant circuit for each cylinder. >This is literally on demand multistrike capability and can extend your > lean limits and/or reduce feedgas emissions. Once more, with the wasted spark system, you could do all of this with out a problem. The only exception that I have heard of would be a engine with extremely long intake and exhaust duration. Not a problem on just about any engine going on the street. >5) Independant cylinder knock control. With two knock sensors, you can >determine which cylinder is knocking and alter that cylinder's spark >advance without screwing with the remaining cylinders' spark advance. Any again, why does one coil/cylinder do this any better than the wasted spark system? >So, the beef is, with coil per plug, you are one step closer to >controlling several one cylinder engines instead of controlling a V6 >or V8 or I4. There are tradeoffs, but if you really need some of these >things(especially extending the lean limits and reducing emissions), >you will pay for them. Except for the first item, almost all of this was the advantages one coil/ cylinder has over a standard distributor system, not over the wasted spark system. I am also heavily into car audio, so getting rid of one source of RFI is tempting though... Clint ccorbin at intel7.intel.com From jac at wave.sheridan.wy.us Fri Mar 29 04:12:56 1996 From: jac at wave.sheridan.wy.us (john carroll) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 04:12:56 GMT Subject: off topic but interesting Message-ID: The discussion of propane and cng fueled engines reminds me of a fleet of Peterbuilt log haulers that use propane introduced into the induction system to replace some of the diesel. The concept could be useful to others. The system works as follows. Advancing the pedal first causes propane vapor to be introduced to the air stream, increasing power. The diesel injectors introduce fuel at a low level and provide ignition source and timing. As the pedal is advanced, more and more propane is added. At the point where the fuel vapor displaces so much air as to destroy the economic and mechanical efficiency of the hybrid, the call for additional power increases diesel and reduces propane until, at maximum power, the engine runs entirely on diesel. It may be that transition takes place at a point where the propane/air mixture is still sufficiently lean that dentonation is not a problem, They claim that over all and particularly at mid-power operation, there is a net benefit. The value of the system is certainly a function of the relative cost of diesel and propane. Does any one think the propane was taxed? I believe they run a kiln on propane as well. I am certain the systems are commercial, but I have no idea of the source. The most exciting corollary of this system that I have observed was when a diesel powered drill rig hit a natural gas tranmission line at about six feet. Every one abandoned ship without hitting the fuel cut off and the engine ran away as the engine began inducing gas along with air. A brave soul (the owner) went back and shut the fuel off before the engine came apart or a fire started. ----------------------------------------------- jac at wave.sheridan.wy.us john carroll From mymove at serv01.net-link.net Fri Mar 29 05:19:55 1996 From: mymove at serv01.net-link.net (William Sarkozy) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 05:19:55 GMT Subject: injector pulse width Message-ID: At 09:41 AM 3/29/96, you wrote: > > >>Per Frank "Choco" Munday's book, TPFI, he states that 305/350 injectors >>will work reasonably well if exchanged as a complete set. This refers to >>the MAF type TPI systems up to '89, and exclude your '85 baby (even though >>it's MAF equiped). His book only covers the '86-'89 models, but I think the >>injector swaping rule will apply to your system also since it's a MAF type. >>Choco goes on to say that he can not tell the difference below 4,500rpm. >>Thats big in small and small in big. >> >>There are differences in the operating pressures. Per chilton, 44psi for >>5.0 & 37psi for 5.7 > >>22lbs/hr flow rate for the 350 per Ben Watsons chevy fuel injection book (no >>305 data). > >>BTW guys, The '89 TPI in my '58 is running great! All bugs have been worked >>out and I've clocked over 600 trouble free city miles already. The R700 is >>comming soon. > >>Dan, if you can give the symtoms, I sure one of us gurus could help. > >>Good luck >>GMD > >Thanx for the info. > >The system is infact of a TPI of a 305 '85 F-body according to the fuel rail >number. However the system is now MAP sensing. Can anyone confirm that what I >have done seem right. I have the ECU water temp sensor mounted in one of the >three holes in the front of the manifold, the air temp sensor is mounted in the >hole on the underside at the back of the plenumb chamber, and the MAP ensor >vacuum line is taken of the back corner of the plenumb chamber. > >The cam is: inlet - open 23 deg, close 61 deg (I think) > exhaust - open 68 deg, close 26 deg (I think) > >The engine only seem to run evenly at a stoic of 11.5, CO=5%-7% (very rich) at >idle. When you try and improve on this and actually load up the engine, the >engine starts to jerk around quite violently and only seem to settle down >slightly in the low rpm range when you give it lots of fuel. > >Is it possible to calculate a theoretical fuel map for my computer, either a VE >value or an inject time pulse width for the rpm range that we can follow ? > >If this is possible can someone please send me the formulas ? > >By the way, I'm using the old type HEI dizzy, and when we checked the ignition, >it looked like one bank of the engine had a problem (the pulses were not all >level, but went up and down and up and down) but I have been told that the wrong >air/fuel ratio can cause this. Anyone have any ideas ? > >Is it a timing problem ? Is it a fuel problem ? > >Much help needed here > > >Dan dzorde at aesprodata.com.au > > > When my T-Bird starting running ratty, I traced the problem to a bad fuel pressure regulator....it would start out fine at power-up, then jump to 85-90 psi. I have no way of monitoring the O2 sensor, so I don't know whether the injectors had trouble opening at the high pressure, or whether it just ran super fat because of the increased pressure. If you don't have the diagnostic gear, try a remote tire pressure gage which will connect right on the fuel rail. Be careful, though.....if the Bourdon tube breaks, you'll have fuel everywhere. Bill From tfaugno at qualcomm.com Fri Mar 29 05:56:41 1996 From: tfaugno at qualcomm.com (Terry Faugno) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 05:56:41 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... I know I know!!! Message-ID: At 09:10 PM 3/28/96 -0600, you wrote: >Electromotive is the company that's currently working this!!! They're local >and in one of their latest catalogs I spotted this system being tested on a >VW motor. It's also been written up in Turbo magazine. It uses one of their >FI boxes to run it, pretty neat! Which issue, and what's Electromotive's phone number?!?!? Thanx, Terry From tfaugno at qualcomm.com Fri Mar 29 06:28:47 1996 From: tfaugno at qualcomm.com (Terry Faugno) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 06:28:47 GMT Subject: Off topic, but related subject matter... Message-ID: At 09:17 PM 3/28/96 -0600, you wrote: >In case you're interested - there's a company written up in Turbo magazine >this month that's doing V8 conversions for the 911 bodystyle. It uses a >remote mounted water pump and some strange accessory routing but overall it >looks great! Let me know if you'd like more details, I might even be able >to find the Electromotive info but you'd be better off calling or writing >them, I'll look for the number - I've seen it posted recently I think... I'm aware of Renegade Hybrids and their Porsche/Chevy/American V8 conversions. What I want info on is any companies that make solenoid/non-camshaft actuated valvetrains. What's Electromotive's number? That and someone mentioned Aura... I'll be finding info on them ASAP... Thanx, Terry From arthurok at ix.netcom.com Fri Mar 29 07:53:37 1996 From: arthurok at ix.netcom.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 07:53:37 GMT Subject: injector pulse width Message-ID: a refrigeration works fine for checking gm mpi pressure just remember to blow if clean with "air" before using on refrigeration equipment From einarp at ade.no Fri Mar 29 09:23:22 1996 From: einarp at ade.no (Einar Sjaavik) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:23:22 GMT Subject: Separate coils / knock retard. Message-ID: There is no need for separate coils to do knock retard on a per cylinder basis. The controller just needs to know how many cylinders it's controlling. If it's a 6cyl. engine, just wait 5 cylinders then retard the next. Do this for each and every cylinder. You could also measure the average noise level and use this to modify the threshold you define as knock. This way the influence of valve noise can be made less of a problem. On the other hand; if you have valve or bearing noise, the engine could be saved by the resulting power loss from a retard. And you have an indication something is wrong. Just remember it need not be the ignition itself. It can be an advanced state of engine wear just fooling the knock sensor. And could you please cut everything except maybe a few lines when responding? Much of the time I don't bother to search through the echo to find _your_ statement. Result is it doesn't get through. And as to the "bother" of sending attachments; please don't. -- einarp at ade.no ( Maserati Biturbo Spyder ) From ricrain at airmail.net Fri Mar 29 10:49:29 1996 From: ricrain at airmail.net (Ric Rainbolt) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:49:29 GMT Subject: TEC Message-ID: >If I were them, I'd sue GM too. I'm are currently using an Electromotive >multi-coil ignition system on a '66 Coronet. I happened to be in a GM dealer >about a month ago, and I noticed the very same ignition system on a brand-new >Aurora. Looking further around the showroom, I came to the conclusion that >GM must have bought the Electromotive ignition system. Does anyone know if >this was licensed or simply stolen from Electromotive? Uh, no. Here's what I have heard about this. I think you are confused about the appearance of the TEC II and it similarity to that of the new GM ignition systems. The reason for the similarity is... Electromotive uses the GM twin-tower coils for their ignition sparking, making it look strikingly (ha, what a pun) similar to the GM unit. The lawsuit involves a "technology" whereby the spark timing is controlled nearly independently to the CPU using a digital PLL circuit quite simlar to the Silicon Systems 68Fxxx(?) chip. Since I am convinced that the man who runs Electromotive didn't invent PLL's (or even digital PLL's), I personally think the suit is hogwash. Just a personal opinion. If you can't compete, sue. Ric Rainbolt ricrain at airmail.net From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Fri Mar 29 11:45:02 1996 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:45:02 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: -> subject of one coil per cylinder. To tell you the truth, I do not -> see any advantage of one coil per cylinder over one coil per two -> cylinders. There is no functional difference. However, if your spark curve is under software control, it allows you to dispense with the distributor, which can give a "cleaner" installation. You could also use SAAB or Fordson tractor coils, which just pop on over the spark plug, and dispense with plug wires entirely. From mrb at mpx.com.au Fri Mar 29 11:58:07 1996 From: mrb at mpx.com.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:58:07 GMT Subject: Pneumatic Valve Springs ! Message-ID: At 05:03 PM 28/03/96 -0800, you wrote: > >>They use "air bags" instead of mechical valve springs. The pneumatics DO NOT >>ACTUATE THE VALVES. > >How do the valves open and close ? Can anyone explain how >the Pneumatic Valves work. It can be addressed just to >prasad at ada.com if you feel its outside DIYFI stuff.. >Thanks >Krishna > Krishna, with a "normal" camshaft of course !! The pneumatics replace the valve springs only. Normal cam, normal camshaft. The "air springs" solve most of the problems of metal springs. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. From SWELTAN at physio.uct.ac.za Fri Mar 29 12:57:19 1996 From: SWELTAN at physio.uct.ac.za (SANDY) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:57:19 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: > that you've burnt everything! Jacob's Electronics claim they can do > this with one coil firing many cylinders, but imagine how much better > you can do it if you have an independant circuit for each cylinder. > This is literally on demand multistrike capability and can extend your > lean limits and/or reduce feedgas emissions. Is that system actually installed in any OEM cars yet? Has anyone out there actually USED a Jacobs Electronic system? I've been trying for ages to find out how it really compares throughout the rev range with the MSD, Microdynamics and the multiple coil systems. Any response will be appreciated. With all this talk of lawsuits, any negative comments should possibly be mailed directly to me! Sandy ====================================================================== DR. S.M. WELTAN DEPT OF PHYSIOLOGY Tel. No: (021) 406-6507 UNIVERSITY OF CAPE TOWN Fax No: (021) 47-7669 MEDICAL SCHOOL SOUTH AFRICA e-mail:sweltan at physio.uct.ac.za ====================================================================== From wrl at access.digex.net Fri Mar 29 13:19:04 1996 From: wrl at access.digex.net (Bill Lewis) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:19:04 GMT Subject: VW Bosch injection Message-ID: VW has used several injection systems over the years: D-Jetronic, 1968-197? This system uses manifold pressure and an all analog electronic control box. I think it was first used on 1968 VW Type 3. Also used on Porsche 914, Saab, Volvo, and who knows what else. L-Jetronic, 1975- This system uses an air flow meter (flapper box) and a hybrid analog/digital control box. Available with and w/o an oxygen sensor. I think it was first used on 1974 Porsche 914 1.8. Very common on BMW, etc. Used on VW Bug from 1975 and late Bus / Vanagon. Motronic, This is an all digital control unit, using either an air flow meter or a mass air sensor. I think it was first used on BMW but shows up on just about all European makes. With and and w/o oxygen sensor and knock sensors. Used by VW on the VR6. K-Jetronic, 1973 into the '90s. Commonly called CIS. This started out as a purely mechanical continuous flow system. First used in 1973 Porsche 911T. VW picked it up for the Rabbit. Seen on many European makes. In 1982 it became K-Jetronic Lambda, which incorporated an oxygen sensor, a control unit, and a duty cycle solenoid valve to modify the original mechanical system. About 1985, KE-Jetronic, the duty cycle valve was replaced by a voice coil actuator and a more complicated control unit. Added digital ignition control at the same time. Digifant is a VW invention that's kind of a cross between L-Jetronic and Motronic. Found in things like 1990 Golf and Jetta. Bill From FIScot at aol.com Fri Mar 29 13:41:22 1996 From: FIScot at aol.com (FIScot at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:41:22 GMT Subject: Attachments making post unreadable... Message-ID: Jim ? (JVP at qsi.com), please stop sending the 'winmail.dat' attachments to your posts! This makes (for me) the post unreadable, and I have to delete all your posts before I can read my mail. Not to mention the 'winmail.dat' files that end up on my hard-drive. Please stop.... Thanks, Scot Sealander FIScot at aol.com From p.m.shackleton at hud.ac.uk Fri Mar 29 14:59:12 1996 From: p.m.shackleton at hud.ac.uk (Paul Shackleton) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:59:12 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: > You could also use SAAB or Fordson tractor coils, which just pop on over the >spark plug, and dispense with plug wires entirely. Which models/years of SAAB? From ehernan3 at ford.com Fri Mar 29 15:10:36 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 15:10:36 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: "My biggest interest would be to find a system that would allow me to fire my EFI HO Ford motor on a waste spark system. I've been told by a guy here that he's done this using some weird rotor out of another Ford application that would fire the opposing cylinders." Ford's waste spark system is distributorless, so your friend is 100% BS. Why would you want to fire two plugs at once if you have the new Accel system which is a single coil system? That would fire the coil twice as often and would give you no benefits but would definitely drop your spark energy! Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From gallant at oasys.dt.navy.mil Fri Mar 29 15:35:06 1996 From: gallant at oasys.dt.navy.mil (Robert Gallant) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 15:35:06 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: With all the talk about multispark....Is there any difference between aftermarket coils. The LITTLE MSD coils have a LITTLE price, the BIG Jacobs and Mallory coils have a BIG price. Is there any difference other than $/size. The MSD has a warning about the high voltage out of the box. Does this make difference between coils have more or less of an affect on spark? Thanks for the info. Rob gallant at oasys.dt.navy.mil From kking at HiWAAY.net Fri Mar 29 15:37:16 1996 From: kking at HiWAAY.net (Kenneth C. King) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 15:37:16 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: greetings: i decided not to quote the extra-long posts on coil-on-plug setup... question- can't you have your cake and eat it too? put the coil on each plug, but wire them in opposing pairs? you get back to the wasted spark and half as many firing events per revolution. would the plug on the exhaust stroke provide sufficient resistance on the secondary side to shunt the bulk of the primary current into the cyl that's on the combustion stroke? (obviously they need to be wired in paralell, not in series! :) or would too much of the curent be drained by the coil on the exhaust stroke? later, kc (a frustrated ee traped for a decade in the software world! ): -- "ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 "he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc From gtk110 at psu.edu Fri Mar 29 16:07:57 1996 From: gtk110 at psu.edu (gtk110 at psu.edu) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:07:57 GMT Subject: Switching from carb to FI on a Ford (fwd) Message-ID: >: >:The subject says it all, well most of it anyway. I want to get rid of >:the old unreliable inefficient carb on my 84 F-150 4.9L. (It's my tow >:vehicle so this is sort of Auto-X related). I don't see any reason why >:I shouldn't be able to convert to a TBI system (Throttle Body Injection) >:I just don't know where to start to look. >: >:So if anyone has done this to their vehicle I'd like to hear the pros >:and cons of it based on your experiences. As well as your manufacturer >:and cost. >: >:Thanks. >: > > >I got your address from one of the guys on the autocross list. I have >subscribed and read the welcome and I think that this post fits in with >the purpose of the list. > >I was also contemplating converting to an MSD type of ignition to >totally elimanate the original ECU, it seems from the welcome that it >may be possible to use the original ECU. One of the major problems I am >having is with the EEC_IV system the ignition is electronically adjuting >the timing. Since one or more of my sensors is spewing erroneous >reading I have had to disconnect the SPOUT (or is it the SEA) connector >and I just leave the timing advanced slightly from the Base timing. >Base is 10deg and I have it advanced to 16deg. > >So, that said, any suggestions? > > > >-- >Ron Madurski >rmadursk at galaxy.galstar.com > > You might be able to adpt the late model FI system from that of a 5.0 mustang... I just happen to have a speed density sysyem lying around...wires ecu and all....the only problem you might run into with this is the process of getting an electronic fuel pump and the fuel rails to mount the injectors...I dont know if you'll be able to use the stock intake but even if you have to use a mustang/cougar plenum (preferably an '87 up plenum), the truck will breath better and make more power plus you get tha added benefit of using mustang hop up parts, including superchargers....all with great idle quality and good mpg. Just some thoughts...oh yeah, emoving the spout connector will also cut down your total advance...this thing must be sluggish. Gannon "Gripping the wheel, his knuckles went white with desire...the wheels of his Mustang exploded on the highway like a slug from a .45... True death... 400 horsepower, maximum performance piercing the night... This is BLACK SUNSHINE!" From ehernan3 at ford.com Fri Mar 29 16:08:01 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:08:01 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: >That would fire the coil twice as often and would give you no >benefits but would definitely drop your spark energy! Oops, no it would fire the coil just as often, but across twice as many gaps. Still, it doesn't make sense to do that with a system like the one you have. Jeez, now I'm correcting myself! Does that make me pretty sharp or pretty dull? Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com Fri Mar 29 16:27:41 1996 From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com (WERNER_HAUSSMANN at HP-Loveland-om2.om.hp.com) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:27:41 GMT Subject: Electronic valves Message-ID: Hi Terry Turbo magazine July '94 FDC 50153 ISSN 0894-5039 Suppliers mentioned; Aura Systems Inc, EVA (Elelctronic Valve Actuators) designers 310-643-5300 BC TEchnologies, Team Organizer 714-730-6274 Electromotive inc, electronics 703-378-2444 Pantera Specialists, System Integrators and Seller They advertise a EVA system in Turbo Magazine 714-250-1797 Werner ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Electronic valves > Hi > > BMW? developed a system using piezo-electric stacks about 10-15 years ago. > There was an article in Road &Track about it... but I don't have it. > > More recently (about a year ago) Turbo magazine had an article about > solenoid operated valves. They were operated by electronics from > Electromotive. I think I still have the magazine. When I find it, I'll > give you the date and manufacturer of the head. I also don't remember the > engine under the test. > Thanks, Werner. I'd appreciate greatly if you could dig it up and give me the companie's name, address, and phone/fax numbers. Also, any pertinent highlights from the article. And an issue number /Year and month so I can see if they have back issues in stock. Thanx, Terry From ehernan3 at ford.com Fri Mar 29 16:35:42 1996 From: ehernan3 at ford.com (Edward Hernandez R) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:35:42 GMT Subject: Multispark Message-ID: This is a reply to Clint Corbin. I'll try to include as little as possible form his post, so I apologize up front for the generous snipping and clipping. "What is the saturation time of the coil? If you are charging at a fast rate, I still see no advantage with one coil/cylinder over one coil/two cylinders." I do not know the saturation times of "the" coil. Besides, coils are designed to suit different applications(single coils vs eight vs waste spark). If the saturation times are low enough then, true, that's one less reason for going coil per plug. However, the load on a coil per plug is much less than the load on a coil per two plugs (assuming by this you meant waste spark). In addition, half the spark plugs on wastespark systems erode the ground electrode faster than the center electrode, so if you want 100,000 mile tune up intervals, you need double platinum plugs OR customers/dealers/mechanics who are willing to take the care to install the two kinds of single platinum plugs in the correct cylinders. Guess how often we count on them to do it right! Thus, we have to install the fancy plugs in each cylinder to idiot proof the tuneup. "Even with one coil/two cylinders you stil have four times (on a 8 cylinder) the number of coils than the MSD has. Just how high do you need to take the motor anyway?" How does 7 grand stike you? You have to remember that you can't apply an analogy like that to an OEM. I've heard(i.e., this is not fact) that MSD's do not last long. There is a saying in circle track racing about how many MSD units you need: one in the car, one in the pits, and one on the way back to MSD for replacement/repair. OEM stuff has to last much longer than this(and you know it often doesn't!). Again, with waste spark, you have to jump two gaps, meaning during your saturation time, you need to store more energy. "Once more, with the wasted spark system, you could do all of this (combustion sensing) with out a problem." I would debate that since you are trying to sense across two gaps, one of which is exposed to expanded burnt charge and the other to expanding and burning change. Surely ion sensing is easier and more robust across a single gap compared to two in series. "Any again, why does one coil/cylinder do this(independant cylinder knock control) any better than the wasted spark system?" You have me there. That's just a strategy change, so the software guys would complain which is easier/more convenient but they'd live. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From fparker at umich.edu Fri Mar 29 17:52:55 1996 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank F Parker) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:52:55 GMT Subject: Independent cylinder knock control Message-ID: > I've heard of the J&S system - it sounded great and if not for my DFI.... > Currently I use a GM sensor hooked into my DFI. I was told to mount it on > the HEAD (!) and am pretty sure I'm getting false knock from the > valvetrain. The sensor uses a small box from GM between it and the > computer. I've seen monitoring boxes for turbo GNs and would love to adapt > one for my system. Anyone have any ideas? I just want to know when it's > thinking it sees knock without having to use my laptop. I've done some > electronics work but it's been years and most of the little bit of design > knowledge I had has drained away.. TIA! > The mounting on the head is a very bad idea. Use the stock GM location on the bottom of block near oil pan rail. The gm box is a crude bandpass filter and works poorly-gives alot of false retard. A number of companies sell a monitor which appear to be a stock gm sensor connected to simple dc meter thru a diode. Frank Parker > > From sandyg at interramp.com Fri Mar 29 19:10:13 1996 From: sandyg at interramp.com (Sandy) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 19:10:13 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: I saw some mention the Champion is making a coil-per-plug part in Automotive Engineering a while ago. I have no part numbers, it may just be a replacment or something of that sort. Sandy From DI706 at ACADEMIC.CALPOLY.EDU Fri Mar 29 19:38:10 1996 From: DI706 at ACADEMIC.CALPOLY.EDU (DI706 at ACADEMIC.CALPOLY.EDU) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 19:38:10 GMT Subject: Uncl: Re: Switching from carb to FI on a Ford (fwd) Message-ID: From: Lynn Mosher, Industrial Technology, Cal Poly We have been working on a commercial product for about 2 years and will do our beta test on our own electronics on a 62 Corvette tomorrow. More when we get ba ck from our "drive". From tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Fri Mar 29 20:08:28 1996 From: tratke at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (TAR) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 20:08:28 GMT Subject: Pneumatic Valve Springs ! Message-ID: Mark, What about valve float at 'higher' rpm's? I realize the pneumatic system probably has less inertia than metal springs, but I still can't see how they could effectively curb this problem without some type of Desmo system (like that used on Ducati's). Any insight? Todd- On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Mark Boxsell wrote: > >How do the valves open and close ? Can anyone explain how > >the Pneumatic Valves work. It can be addressed just to > >prasad at ada.com if you feel its outside DIYFI stuff.. > with a "normal" camshaft of course !! The pneumatics replace > the valve springs only. Normal > cam, normal camshaft. The "air springs" solve most of the problems of metal > springs. > regards, > Mark Boxsell > MRB Design. From 3mh31 at qlink.queensu.ca Sat Mar 30 00:12:48 1996 From: 3mh31 at qlink.queensu.ca (Hadzic Muhammed) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 00:12:48 GMT Subject: TEC Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Mar 1996 Utgarhoth at aol.com wrote: > If I were them, I'd sue GM too. I'm are currently using an Electromotive > multi-coil ignition system on a '66 Coronet. I happened to be in a GM dealer > about a month ago, and I noticed the very same ignition system on a brand-new > Aurora. Looking further around the showroom, I came to the conclusion that > GM must have bought the Electromotive ignition system. Does anyone know if > this was licensed or simply stolen from Electromotive? > > > --- R. Andrew Broadhurst > My two cents... I've recently bought the TEC II system from Electromotive and part of thier sales pitch was that GM licenced the design for the coils from them. They claimed that they had the patent rights on the coils. Muhammed From tfaugno at qualcomm.com Sat Mar 30 01:34:26 1996 From: tfaugno at qualcomm.com (Terry Faugno) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 01:34:26 GMT Subject: Info on EVA companies. Message-ID: Called Aura and Pantera today. Got ahold of people who actually knew what they were talking about. Aura, tried a permanent magnet system, only went to 7K or so RPM. Switched to electromagnets, say they have signed contracts with Chrysler and other OEMs, expect to see engines with the camless valve train in a few years, possibly 1999 or so. No plans to sell aftermarket kits themselves, but they are *quite* aware of the potential market of enthusiasts and have tentative plans to work with an established aftermarket company to make a retrofit kit. Pantera, talked to owner's son. Had a lot to talk about. Supposedly, Aura bought their magnets or some system component from them. They have a 2.3l Ford engine that showed 10% HP and Torque gain, and 25% emissions decrease. They now have a system that they claim can rev up past 10KRPM safely. They will perform conversions to customer's cylinder heads, but at $1000/valve. Lets out the amatuer enthusiasts, at least for now. They intend to OEM to the big 3 and others, but aren't going to leave the enthusiasts in the cold either. Right now, it's all blue-sky. In 5 years, expect to see VTEC owners selling their cars off, or converting to camless valvetrains. Aura seemed to indicate that their product was mature enough to hand over to Chrysler and let them develop it on their cars. That's all I have on that subject for now. I asked for literature from both companies, and will let you know when it arrives. Later, Terry From rmadursk at galaxy.galstar.com Sat Mar 30 03:42:41 1996 From: rmadursk at galaxy.galstar.com (Ron Madurski) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 03:42:41 GMT Subject: Uncl: Re: Switching from carb to FI on a Ford (fwd) Message-ID: : : :From: Lynn Mosher, Industrial Technology, Cal Poly :We have been working on a commercial product for about 2 years and will do our :beta test on our own electronics on a 62 Corvette tomorrow. More when we get ba :ck from our "drive". : Great, I'll tell you what when you get the 'vette running right I'll trade you for my truck and you can work on it :-) Good luck. : -- Ron Madurski rmadursk at galaxy.galstar.com From rmadursk at galaxy.galstar.com Sat Mar 30 03:47:58 1996 From: rmadursk at galaxy.galstar.com (Ron Madurski) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 03:47:58 GMT Subject: Switching from carb to FI on a Ford (fwd) Message-ID: :> :> :You might be able to adpt the late model FI system from that of a 5.0 :mustang... I just happen to have a speed density sysyem lying around...wires :ecu and all....the only problem you might run into with this is the process :of getting an electronic fuel pump and the fuel rails to mount the :injectors...I dont know if you'll be able to use the stock intake but even :if you have to use a mustang/cougar plenum (preferably an '87 up plenum), :the truck will breath better and make more power plus you get tha added :benefit of using mustang hop up parts, including superchargers....all with :great idle quality and good mpg. Would the 8 cylinder hardware still work with the 6 cylinder engine? The 4.9L is a straight 6. :Just some thoughts...oh yeah, emoving the spout connector will also cut down :your total advance...this thing must be sluggish. Uhh, yup. It's a pig alright and I'm getting tired of it. How much would you want for the harware you have (if it can be used on my 6Cyl). Thanks for teh reply. : : Gannon : : "Gripping the wheel, his knuckles went white with desire...the wheels : of his Mustang exploded on the highway like a slug from a .45... : True death... 400 horsepower, maximum performance piercing the :night... : This is BLACK SUNSHINE!" : : -- Ron Madurski rmadursk at galaxy.galstar.com From fcmefi at fishnet.net Sat Mar 30 04:25:36 1996 From: fcmefi at fishnet.net (Fred Miranda) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 04:25:36 GMT Subject: Info on EVA companies. Message-ID: At 05:34 PM 3/29/96 -0800, you wrote: > Called Aura and Pantera today. Got ahold of people who actually knew >what they were talking about. > Pantera, talked to owner's son. Had a lot to talk about. Supposedly, >Aura bought their magnets or some system component from them. They have a >2.3l Ford engine that showed 10% HP and Torque gain, and 25% emissions >decrease. They now have a system that they claim can rev up past 10KRPM >safely. They will perform conversions to customer's cylinder heads, but at >$1000/valve. Lets out the amatuer enthusiasts, at least for now. They intend >to OEM to the big 3 and others, but aren't going to leave the enthusiasts in >the cold either. This is pure BS. they did have the Ford engine going but it would hardly rev. maybe saw 5krpm no load. The motor barely ran, I don't know where the got the figures for hp and emissions. Quite a salesman that kid. Fred From tfaugno at qualcomm.com Sat Mar 30 06:35:04 1996 From: tfaugno at qualcomm.com (Terry Faugno) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 06:35:04 GMT Subject: Info on EVA companies. Message-ID: At 08:24 PM 3/29/96 GMT, you wrote: >This is pure BS. they did have the Ford engine going but it would hardly >rev. maybe saw 5krpm no load. The motor barely ran, I don't know where >the got the figures for hp and emissions. >Quite a salesman that kid. Well, I didn't say I'd seen any proof... I do intend to go up to Orange County and check out the place. They say (again, I'm relaying what I was told) that they have a electromagnet based system that works better than the permanent magnet system. Also, as a Dodge Neon owner, the guy mentioned that they make a replacement PCM for the Neon, which allows full access to the fuel and spark tables and such. He said the basic box starts at $1k... I'd want to see one installed and working. He also indicated that Chrysler bought the rights to the Neon's (and presumably other Chryco cars) DIS system from them... Anyone have any info to contest this claim? I thought that Chrysler designed and built it themselves. I'll have to check with the people on the Neon mailing list. Later, Terry From 193.92.133.35 at beryl.kapatel.gr Sat Mar 30 15:06:12 1996 From: 193.92.133.35 at beryl.kapatel.gr (George Theologitis) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:06:12 GMT Subject: Motronic Look-Up Tables Message-ID: The following two 12x12 matrixs are the advance and fueling look-up tables converted in dec, from a Bosch Motronic ECU with a map sensor. The problem is that, I'm not sure for the direction of engine speed (RPMs) and Load signal. (top to down, left to right ....) Any help is welcome.... Advance: 53 53 53 56 59 63 63 54 51 50 50 50 58 59 59 62 66 66 66 63 58 54 54 54 65 65 69 69 70 70 70 70 60 58 58 58 77 77 77 77 77 77 73 73 68 65 63 63 90 90 90 90 86 86 79 77 73 66 64 64 98 98 98 93 90 86 83 81 74 69 65 65 97 97 97 96 93 89 85 83 75 70 68 68 99 99 93 91 90 90 86 83 79 70 65 65 98 101 93 93 89 89 83 79 75 67 65 65 99 99 98 90 90 87 83 79 79 70 65 65 98 98 94 90 90 85 83 83 79 70 65 65 98 98 94 97 86 86 83 83 79 70 65 65 Fuel Map 113 113 113 113 113 114 116 117 118 127 132 148 122 122 122 122 122 123 123 126 126 132 137 149 133 133 133 139 139 139 140 140 141 146 148 151 139 139 141 149 153 153 153 155 155 160 162 161 134 138 140 143 144 148 149 152 154 157 163 166 136 144 146 152 155 156 158 160 161 165 168 171 132 132 138 143 148 154 156 158 161 165 168 176 122 122 127 134 139 145 149 151 156 163 170 179 127 128 138 146 155 159 162 169 172 177 181 190 123 123 141 142 156 164 170 172 177 178 182 189 124 126 140 158 169 179 179 180 182 184 195 201 121 121 136 147 170 179 183 185 186 186 190 199 Thanks in advance! From sparks at probe.net Sat Mar 30 15:52:26 1996 From: sparks at probe.net (tom sparks) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:52:26 GMT Subject: lambda sensor Message-ID: At 12:43 AM 3/27/96 +0700, you wrote: >Does anybody have any info on adapting a lambda sensor to my toyota >engine (7K series engine, 1800 cc)? because the stock ecu did not have >one (BTW it is an open loop system and i want to modified it into a >close loop system). >What type of lambda sensor that matched to my engine, and where i can >get it? >please help me!!!!!! >thank you!!!!!!! > > Here's a web address that is a good primer on O2 sensors: http://ram.chem.tulane.edu:8080/f-body/trivia/o2sensor.html Hope it helps Best regards, Thomas Sparks From lndshrk at xmission.com Sat Mar 30 17:12:22 1996 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 17:12:22 GMT Subject: Motronic Look-Up Tables Message-ID: At 17:06 3/29/96 +0200, you wrote: >The following two 12x12 matrixs are the advance >and fueling look-up tables converted in dec, Why yes, they are :) >from a Bosch Motronic ECU with a map sensor. What application?? >The problem is that, I'm not sure for the direction >of engine speed (RPMs) and Load signal. (top to down, >left to right ....) That much is easy, since you have the spark table ... Down is increasing RPM, and Across to the right is Increasing LOAD .. if you would be so kind as to post the 28 bytes BEFORE this data for EACH table, I can tell you EXACTLY what RPMS, and LOAD values are for the sites!! >Any help is welcome.... Also, If you get me the code, I can tell you exactly how the internal table values relate to the real world for spark and such ... >Advance: > 53 53 53 56 59 63 63 54 51 50 50 50 > 58 59 59 62 66 66 66 63 58 54 54 54 > 65 65 69 69 70 70 70 70 60 58 58 58 > 77 77 77 77 77 77 73 73 68 65 63 63 > 90 90 90 90 86 86 79 77 73 66 64 64 > 98 98 98 93 90 86 83 81 74 69 65 65 > 97 97 97 96 93 89 85 83 75 70 68 68 > 99 99 93 91 90 90 86 83 79 70 65 65 > 98 101 93 93 89 89 83 79 75 67 65 65 > 99 99 98 90 90 87 83 79 79 70 65 65 > 98 98 94 90 90 85 83 83 79 70 65 65 > 98 98 94 97 86 86 83 83 79 70 65 65 The fuel map always has a BASE value of 128 (0x80) and is a multiplicative correction to LOAD to get the injection time In your engine.. LOAD must be calculated from MAP and RPM >Fuel Map > 113 113 113 113 113 114 116 117 118 127 132 148 > 122 122 122 122 122 123 123 126 126 132 137 149 > 133 133 133 139 139 139 140 140 141 146 148 151 > 139 139 141 149 153 153 153 155 155 160 162 161 > 134 138 140 143 144 148 149 152 154 157 163 166 > 136 144 146 152 155 156 158 160 161 165 168 171 > 132 132 138 143 148 154 156 158 161 165 168 176 > 122 122 127 134 139 145 149 151 156 163 170 179 > 127 128 138 146 155 159 162 169 172 177 181 190 > 123 123 141 142 156 164 170 172 177 178 182 189 > 124 126 140 158 169 179 179 180 182 184 195 201 > 121 121 136 147 170 179 183 185 186 186 190 199 I can really help you more if you show me the actual code, in fact I can probably have it reversed for you in a few hours ... It's kind of a hobby with me :) Jim Conforti lndshrk at xmission.com From gmd at tecinfo.com Sun Mar 31 02:12:06 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 02:12:06 GMT Subject: Switching from carb to FI on a Ford (fwd) Message-ID: At 04:43 PM 3/28/96 -0600, you wrote: I want to get rid of the old unreliable inefficient carb on my 84 F-150 4.9L. (It's my tow vehicle so this is sort of Auto-X related). I don't see any reason why >:I shouldn't be able to convert to a TBI system (Throttle Body Injection) >:I just don't know where to start to look. >:So if anyone has done this to their vehicle I'd like to hear the pros >:and cons of it based on your experiences. As well as your manufacturer >:and cost. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I'm sure you are aware of the Holly complete kit systems so.... On my '58 chevy truck, prior to TPEFI, I used an '89 GM throttle body system off of a truck. The swap was relatively easy. There should be a posting of this somewhere. To BRIEFLY summarize: get ECM, throttle body, pump, all sensors, electrical connectors, 7 term HEI distributer, lots of wiring,and a service manual for the TBI system Fab the harnes per the service manual Test the system (off the vehicle) via check engine light and other indicators Fabricate an adapter plate for throttle body to intake manifold carb mount Modify exiesting fuel lines for a return fuel flow configuration. Install TBI Fuel pump Install Throttle body and prefabed & pretested harness Install 7 term HEI distributer. crank engine and work out any bugs It's that simple. I drive Maxine ('58 chevy) every day and did not miss a beat. I did every thing possible, without disabling the truck, first. What was left, was completed in 6 hours. Total project cost was about $250.00 (give or take a little) Now, for your ford... (let the flames begin!!) I THINK you could adapt this same system (GM TBI) to your 351 / 302 ford with one extra step. Replace your exiesting ignition module with the GM 7 term HEI ignition module. Yes, your ford engine will be following 350 / 305 TBI fuel and timming curves. I don't think this will be much of a problem. I'm not sure what ford has available as far as OEM TBI systems but they don't have a good reputation of parts interchangability between years. See what they have FIRST. Find out how difficult a conversion could possibly be. I'm about to mail my complete TBI system to a friend with an 265cid '84 olds cutlass. You guesed it.... Since the system is 350 based we expect a need for smaller injectors, 4.3 or 3.8L v6 might be the ticket. He might get lucky and not need too do any thing. One more thing, If you have one of those "ford pissing on a Chevy" window stickers you would have to remove it after the GM conversion. In this part of the country those are shooting graphics. You could receive lead from both sides :-) Good luck GMD From gmd at tecinfo.com Sun Mar 31 02:37:38 1996 From: gmd at tecinfo.com (George M. Dailey) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 02:37:38 GMT Subject: injector pulse width Message-ID: At 09:41 AM 3/29/96, you wrote: > > >>Per Frank "Choco" Munday's book, TPFI, he states that 305/350 injectors >>will work reasonably well if exchanged as a complete set. This refers to >>the MAF type TPI systems up to '89, and exclude your '85 baby (even though >>it's MAF equiped). His book only covers the '86-'89 models, but I think the >>injector swaping rule will apply to your system also since it's a MAF type. >>Choco goes on to say that he can not tell the difference below 4,500rpm. >>Thats big in small and small in big. >> >>There are differences in the operating pressures. Per chilton, 44psi for >>5.0 & 37psi for 5.7 > >>22lbs/hr flow rate for the 350 per Ben Watsons chevy fuel injection book (no >>305 data). > >>BTW guys, The '89 TPI in my '58 is running great! All bugs have been worked >>out and I've clocked over 600 trouble free city miles already. The R700 is >>comming soon. > >>Dan, if you can give the symtoms, I sure one of us gurus could help. > >>Good luck >>GMD > >Thanx for the info. > >The system is infact of a TPI of a 305 '85 F-body according to the fuel rail >number. However the system is now MAP sensing. Can anyone confirm that what I >have done seem right. I have the ECU water temp sensor mounted in one of the >three holes in the front of the manifold, the air temp sensor is mounted in the >hole on the underside at the back of the plenumb chamber, and the MAP ensor >vacuum line is taken of the back corner of the plenumb chamber. > >The cam is: inlet - open 23 deg, close 61 deg (I think) > exhaust - open 68 deg, close 26 deg (I think) > >The engine only seem to run evenly at a stoic of 11.5, CO=5%-7% (very rich) at >idle. When you try and improve on this and actually load up the engine, the >engine starts to jerk around quite violently and only seem to settle down >slightly in the low rpm range when you give it lots of fuel. > >Is it possible to calculate a theoretical fuel map for my computer, either a VE >value or an inject time pulse width for the rpm range that we can follow ? > >If this is possible can someone please send me the formulas ? > >By the way, I'm using the old type HEI dizzy, and when we checked the ignition, >it looked like one bank of the engine had a problem (the pulses were not all >level, but went up and down and up and down) but I have been told that the wrong >air/fuel ratio can cause this. Anyone have any ideas ? > >Is it a timing problem ? Is it a fuel problem ? > >Much help needed here > > >Dan dzorde at aesprodata.com.au ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++ Dan, If I were you, I would START by follow this GENERAL diagnostic procedure. Start writting down things you have checked and there results. There are a lot of things that can fail on a TPI system. I'm almost sure that the '85 TPI used a MAP and MAF sensor. The '85 is a stand alone system as far as electronics are concerned. Verify that the ignition system is working properly and that each plug is firing. Check your fuel pressure and make sure that it is being Vacuume compensated. There should be no fuel on the Vacuume side of the pressure regulator. GET A SERVICE MANUAL for the system. Chilton or if possible, OEM. What type of trouble codes are being sent? I can't give much more advice without knowing more (a lot more) details. In general, be certian the mechanical portion of the engine is in good shape. Look for the simple things first like cold start valve leaks, vacuume leaks. Good luck and be patient & persistant. GMD From CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com Sun Mar 31 08:57:25 1996 From: CCORBIN at INTEL7.intel.com (Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 08:57:25 GMT Subject: Multispark Message-ID: >(assuming by this you meant waste spark). In addition, half the spark >plugs on wastespark systems erode the ground electrode faster than the >center electrode, so if you want 100,000 mile tune up intervals, you >need double platinum plugs OR customers/dealers/mechanics who are >willing to take the care to install the two kinds of single platinum >plugs in the correct cylinders. Guess how often we count on them to >do it right! Thus, we have to install the fancy plugs in each cylinder >to idiot proof the tuneup. >and burning change. Surely ion sensing is easier and more robust across >a single gap compared to two in series. Ed, Ok, I can see the advantages of one coil per plug. Of course, most of this started out of a discusion about DIY EFI, so the 100,000 mile tune up is kind of irrelevant. But then, you are not looking at this from a diyers point of view. What problems would there be in having one TPU channel fire two coils? It would still be a type of wasted spark (so you save 4 TPU channels), but you would have the same polarity on all of the plugs. And, you would only have to do the ion sensing across one gap. If you really can't stand to have the plug fire on the wasted spark, could you drive the ignition driver with a latch? The cylinders would be paired in and "odds or evens" type system (just the way they are in the wasted spark system) and a normal output port from the micro would select which cylinder out of the pairs would fire. The TPU channel for the cylinder pair would feed both cylinders. The cylinder select line would go straight to the even cylinders and be inverted to feed the odd cylinders. The TPU and the select line would be ANDed together to control the latch. Possible? What problems do you see? But anyway, thanks for the input Ed. Clint Corbin ccorbin at intel7.intel.com From cyborne at murlin.com Sun Mar 31 18:49:37 1996 From: cyborne at murlin.com (Ryan Harrell) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 18:49:37 GMT Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection Message-ID: john spears wrote: > > I've been observing the list for awhile, thought I'd through my $.02 in. The > 4.3L CPI engine is a huge improvement over the TBI version. Although it only > uses one injector, the CPI design allows you to deliver the fuel where it > belongs and also allows for some nice manifold air tuning in the process; > thins you just can't do when you're carrying an A/F mixture. I've done about > three of these engines and have turned out well. What would be ideal is to > find a damaged one in the junkyard and get the manifold assembly for your > engine. I use the factory ECM on most of my projects as they are fairly > cheap and have all the bases covered. A little EPROM programming to cover > your specifics and you're on your way! > > John Spears > Speartech Fuel Injection Systems As the original poster of this 4.3 discussion, I'd like to know if anybody has some information on Vortec's supercharger they are designing for the V6 engine. I called Fuel Injection Specialities, whose name I found in a magazine, for info. They stated that Vortech would have a sequential central-port injection supercharger in a couple of months. Also, FI Specialties priced the SCPI kit at $1895 and I was wondering if anybody knew of a cheaper price anywhere else. I'd like to ask Mr. Spears how hard would it be to adapt a centrifugal supercharger not designed for SCPI to it. The reason for this is because ATI Technologies makes an extremely powerful superchager that I'd like to use. Also, I plan to racing heads, roller cam, bore out the engine, and just about any other idea I can find to produce more horsepower (my goal for this engine is around 500-600HP on a $6000 budget) However, I know little about programming EPROMs, and have no idea on what equipment or software is required for reprogramming (although I am willing to learn). If you can recommend a book or other instrucion tool to help me I'd be appreciative. Finally, is there any R&D going on for a true port injected 4.3L V6? I GREATLY APPRECIATE all the help I've gotten from this mailing-list From colec at pr.erau.edu Sun Mar 31 21:18:24 1996 From: colec at pr.erau.edu (Corey Cole) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 21:18:24 GMT Subject: Pneumatic Valve Springs ! Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, TAR wrote: > > What about valve float at 'higher' rpm's? I realize the pneumatic system > probably has less inertia than metal springs, but I still can't see how > they could effectively curb this problem without some type of Desmo system > (like that used on Ducati's). Any insight? > The pneumatic system has essentially no mass compared to metal springs. Plus you can use an ultra high spring rate without having to worry about how you are physically going to make that spring rate happen in the limited space available. And where they are used, you don't have to worry about breaking a spring (however, I'd like to see a pneumatic system in production cars .) Finally, you don't have to worry about resonant frequencies like you do with metal springs. Corey Cole colec at pr.erau.edu '65 Skylark "Knowledge is power...but cubic inches help." Go #24!!!!! I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison and I went to pick her up in the rain. But before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, she got runned over by the darned old train... David Allen Coe Steve Goodman From s2184002 at cse.unsw.edu.au Sun Mar 31 23:34:07 1996 From: s2184002 at cse.unsw.edu.au (Chris Howard) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 23:34:07 GMT Subject: Pneumatic Valve Springs ! Message-ID: Hi, > >What about valve float at 'higher' rpm's? I realize the pneumatic system >probably has less inertia than metal springs, but I still can't see how >they could effectively curb this problem without some type of Desmo system >(like that used on Ducati's). Any insight? > Valve float is caused by resonance of the valve spring when it is excited at its natural frequency or a harmonic thereof. A typical natural frequency of a valve spring is around 700 Hz (42000 rpm). So at 7000 camshaft rpm, if there is a strong sixth harmonic in the cam lift profile, the spring will be in resonance and the effective spring force will be diminished or eliminated, unless there is adequate damping of the springs. This damping is generally provided by friction between the inner and outer springs, but is not a total solution. What is desired is that the natural frequency be much higher such that it corresponds to at least the ninth harmonic of cam speed as the higher harmonics have smaller components. A pneumatic valve spring is just a enclosed column of gas within the space previouusly occupied by the coil springs. The natural frequency of a typical such system is around the 5kHz mark (300000 rpm). So with a pneumatic valve spring at 7000 camshaft rpm, it will be the about the 40th harmonic which will excite the pneumatic spring. These higher harmonics have negligible effect, so the pnuematic spring is virtually "float free". If anyone wants any more info, reply by email as i'm not quite sure valve springs are a part of the FI system :) Chris Howard Computer Science University of New South Wales email: s2184002 at cse.unsw.edu.au Web: http://www.usyd.edu.au/~choward From JVP at qsi.com Sun Mar 31 23:41:29 1996 From: JVP at qsi.com (Jim Pearl) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 23:41:29 GMT Subject: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Message-ID: His explanation was that he had a rotor that had two prongs on it. However, I could never figure out this might work. It would allow the spark to take the path of least resistance and not fire the other plug? This rotor was supposedly out of a 351 truck distributor.. Why fire two plugs? Waste fire! I'd love to take a shot at burning any unused fuel left in the chamber... ---------- >From: Edward Hernandez (R)[SMTP:ehernan3 at ford.com] Sent: Thursday, March 28, 1996 11:09 PM To: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Multispark stuff and other thoughts "My biggest interest would be to find a system that would allow me to fire my EFI HO Ford motor on a waste spark system. I've been told by a guy here that he's done this using some weird rotor out of another Ford application that would fire the opposing cylinders." Ford's waste spark system is distributorless, so your friend is 100% BS. Why would you want to fire two plugs at once if you have the new Accel system which is a single coil system? That would fire the coil twice as often and would give you no benefits but would definitely drop your spark energy! Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3 at ed8719.pto.ford.com From JVP at qsi.com Sun Mar 31 23:53:50 1996 From: JVP at qsi.com (Jim Pearl) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 23:53:50 GMT Subject: Independent cylinder knock control Message-ID: Would like to know more about these meters. Worse comes to worse I'll purchase a set of LEDS and a an IC to drive them. As for mounting it to the lower engine - this is a 5.0 Ford - no "stock" mounting boss exists.. I've got a 351W n the stand - I'll examine it and look for likely spots but I'm betting there won't be an easy one. Duttweiler told me to use the back of the head and provided a block of threaded aluminum to assist me in bolting it up, I used the front of the head on an accessory stud. I'm not running much advance and it does retard - pulling it off allows knock - rock and a hard place I guess. This is why I want to monitor it - to try and get an idea as to how much false knock it's getting. DFI provides no adjustment to the sensitivity and no way to monitor it save through a laptop. I'm tempted to buy one of the "boxes" available to monitor it but they're not cheap and I'm fairly certain their simple inside... ---------- >From: Frank F Parker[SMTP:fparker at umich.edu] Sent: Friday, March 29, 1996 6:52 AM To: diy_efi at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Independent cylinder knock control > I've heard of the J&S system - it sounded great and if not for my DFI.... > Currently I use a GM sensor hooked into my DFI. I was told to mount it on > the HEAD (!) and am pretty sure I'm getting false knock from the > valvetrain. The sensor uses a small box from GM between it and the > computer. I've seen monitoring boxes for turbo GNs and would love to adapt > one for my system. Anyone have any ideas? I just want to know when it's > thinking it sees knock without having to use my laptop. I've done some > electronics work but it's been years and most of the little bit of design > knowledge I had has drained away.. TIA! > The mounting on the head is a very bad idea. Use the stock GM location on the bottom of block near oil pan rail. The gm box is a crude bandpass filter and works poorly-gives alot of false retard. A number of companies sell a monitor which appear to be a stock gm sensor connected to simple dc meter thru a diode. Frank Parker > >