From jsg at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Thu Jan 1 11:15:28 1998 From: jsg at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (John S Gwynne) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 06:15:28 -0500 Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) Message-ID: Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archive to each mailing list is available through the following sources: 1) WWW. http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 2) ftp. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 3) Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". Digest mode is available for each mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe from the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW site (for diy_efi and efi332): http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg at coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 1 16:15:06 1998 From: dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net (Ron Tyler) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:15:06 -0500 Subject: GM/Delco chip numbers Message-ID: Kevin, "How to Tune...." was superseeded by "How to Mod..." (ISBN 0-87938-502-2). Classic Motorbooks no longer sells the former. Happy Trails, Ron Tyler Kevin Vannorsdel wrote: > > I notice two books available with similar titles. > > "How to Tune and Modify Chevrolet Fuel Injection" by Ben Watson and > > "How to Repair and Modify Chevrolet Fuel Injection" from Motorbooks > International. > > Any comments on the differences/value of these books? > > Thanks. > > ________________________________________________ > Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development > 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv at us.ibm.com From shannen at mcn.net Thu Jan 1 16:29:34 1998 From: shannen at mcn.net (Shannen Durphey) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:29:34 -0500 Subject: GM/Delco chip numbers Message-ID: Mike Fahrion wrote: > > > > EEPROM=TRUE. Can't give you many details, but we use a scantool to > > download calibration files from the PC in the boss' office and then > > upload them into the vehicle. Think this started in 94 or 95 Geo storm, > > and all GM vehicles, AFAIK, are now this way. If it's OBDII then it's > > probably EEprom. > > > > Hypertech makes a reprogrammer for Camaros and maybe 'vette's, too. Saves > > stock calibration so you can pass the smoggies. > > > > Around this time last year, Steve Cole of Mastertune fame was working on > > breaking the code. Don't know if he got anywhere. > > > To my knowledge, the GM OBDII systems now use Flash instead of > EEPROM. I believe Steve Cole (now of The Turbo Shop) has a > programmer now available to reprogram the flash through the vehicles > J1850 (OBDII-type) bus. Pretty sure I have a press release around > here somewhere for it. > > -mike > mfahrion at bb-elec.com ok. Umm... what's the difference? Shannen From dbrewste at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 1 17:37:03 1998 From: dbrewste at ix.netcom.com (Dick Brewster) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:37:03 -0500 Subject: raw gauge mechanisms Message-ID: I wouldn't be surprized if the "innards" cost more than a complete gauge. Have you cosidered just taking a standard gauge apart and using its innards. Dick > I remember a while back someone mentioned a source that sells the "innards" > for gauges, but have lost that message...I'm looking for some gauge mechanisms > to try and use with some gauge faces that I'm designing, so any help would be > greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot. > Van From H8carbs at aol.com Thu Jan 1 20:08:07 1998 From: H8carbs at aol.com (H8carbs) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:08:07 -0500 Subject: Turbo Sunbird Message-ID: In a message dated 97-12-31 17:48:16 EST, you write: << > I have access to an '88 Sunbird turbo chip and I have an EPROM Burner but I > don't know the style of the chip to read it. > >> This one is a 27128. You'll need to use an adapter as Peter mentioned, to connect to the 14 pairs of pins at the EPROM-end of the carrier. Mike V From orin at wolfenet.com Thu Jan 1 22:40:10 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:40:10 -0500 Subject: testing new modem Message-ID: Evidently it works. From mpc at genevaonline.com Thu Jan 1 23:09:45 1998 From: mpc at genevaonline.com (Andy) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:09:45 -0500 Subject: Aftermarket EFI systems? Message-ID: I have experience with the Holley Digital ECU. It is very similar to the Accel unit. E-mail if you have any questions. Andy Quaas From nacelp at bright.net Fri Jan 2 05:57:33 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:57:33 -0500 Subject: EPROMS Message-ID: I've been using 2732As, and now find out they are "supposed" to be 27c32s?. Now on the 27128, 27256, 27c128, 27c256, what do I do?. Is there a difference in the 27128 to 27c128, and my lil book shows a difference in programming pins, and voltages from 27128 to 27256's. Is there a "safe" way to try and read one first?. Thankx again Bruce nacelp at bright.net Cone shaped hat gettin too comfortable to want to take off From johnhess at cris.com Fri Jan 2 14:31:02 1998 From: johnhess at cris.com (John A. Hess) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:31:02 -0500 Subject: Turbo Sunbird Message-ID: The "special" adapter is not all that complicated. Just get yourself a PC board IDE header,. cut it to the number of pins that the EPROM actually uses (28), and spread the pins to fit your EPROM ZIF socket. Works fine and lasts a long time. H8carbs wrote: > In a message dated 97-12-31 17:48:16 EST, you write: > > << > I have access to an '88 Sunbird turbo chip and I have an EPROM Burner but > I > > don't know the style of the chip to read it. > > >> > > This one is a 27128. You'll need to use an adapter as Peter mentioned, > to connect to the 14 pairs of pins at the EPROM-end of the carrier. > Mike V From martin at mgass.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 2 15:01:47 1998 From: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk (martin at mgass.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:01:47 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: Anybody have ideas on the consequences of the following actions ?: a) On a GM vehicle, 2ltr 16V, ECU, CAT, EGR, knock sensor etc. Removing the CAT and running on Leaded fuel (higher octane rating). Would ECU be able to tell ?, would any sensors (eg lamda) get damaged ? b) At some later time reverting to unleaded then replacing the CAT, after allowing a suitable time/mileage to 'flush' out any lead deposits. c) What would be a suitable time/mileage...i.e. how long would any lead deposits linger in the engine ? Martin ----------------------------------------------------------- martin at mgass.demon.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------- From frederic.breitwieser at mcione.com Fri Jan 2 15:26:15 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at mcione.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:26:15 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: >a) On a GM vehicle, 2ltr 16V, ECU, CAT, EGR, knock sensor etc. > Removing the CAT and running on Leaded fuel (higher octane rating). > Would ECU be able to tell ?, would any sensors (eg lamda) get >damaged ? Howdy. Without a doubt, the O2 (Lambda) and Cat would be damaged with leaded fuel. Other than that, your car will adjust once a few gallons roam through the engine. I've done it, though not using the OEM computer, but an aftermarket system (Haltach in my case). Racing gasoline at the tracks, if leaded, generally has a higher octane level than unleaded pump gasoline, hence why this was necessary. >c) What would be a suitable time/mileage...i.e. how long would any >lead deposits linger in the engine ? Not very long, I'm going to guess here and say maybe a tankful or so. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ --- From sfgent at ac.net Fri Jan 2 16:25:47 1998 From: sfgent at ac.net (sfg) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:25:47 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk wrote: > > Anybody have ideas on the consequences of the following actions ?: > > a) On a GM vehicle, 2ltr 16V, ECU, CAT, EGR, knock sensor etc. > Removing the CAT and running on Leaded fuel (higher octane rating). > Would ECU be able to tell ?, would any sensors (eg lamda) get > damaged ? > > b) At some later time reverting to unleaded then replacing the CAT, > after allowing a suitable time/mileage to 'flush' out any lead > deposits. > > c) What would be a suitable time/mileage...i.e. how long would any > lead deposits linger in the engine ? > > Martin > ----------------------------------------------------------- > martin at mgass.demon.co.uk > ----------------------------------------------------------- Martin, I drove my '87 Blazer on leaded fuel for 2 years with the CAT installed, and never had the check-engine light come on. When I returned to the USA I installed a new CAT and drove it for a month or so, then passed the emissions test. I did have to refit the proper 195F thermostat to pass idle CO however (was running 180F). Steve From DemonTSi at aol.com Fri Jan 2 16:33:49 1998 From: DemonTSi at aol.com (DemonTSi) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:33:49 -0500 Subject: raw gauge mechanisms Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-01 14:04:18 EST, you write: << I wouldn't be surprized if the "innards" cost more than a complete gauge. Have you cosidered just taking a standard gauge apart and using its innards. >> >From what I rememeber, someone mentioned that some place was selling speedo innards for like under 20 bucks or something...so if that's the case, it would be cheaper that way. I did think about just buying some reliable, low-bucks gauges and just gutting them...but I looked at my auto meter boost gauge and couldn't really tell how everything would fit together (I'm not about to take this one apart either since it's my only one...). Thanks for the input...! Van From nacelp at bright.net Fri Jan 2 16:52:20 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:52:20 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: Does anyone know what they do for O2 sensors in places where they sell just leaded. I've heard that it's the same sensor, and some folks run the leaded (with no cat), and don't have much of a problem. Seems on some race car stuff they don't last very long, but is that do to high Exhaust Gas Temps?, any one, care to comment?. Then rumor has it that using a heated O2 sensor makes them much more livable on leaded. TIA Bruce From H8carbs at aol.com Fri Jan 2 17:21:02 1998 From: H8carbs at aol.com (H8carbs) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:21:02 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: > a) On a GM vehicle, 2ltr 16V, ECU, CAT, EGR, knock sensor etc. > Removing the CAT and running on Leaded fuel (higher octane rating). > Would ECU be able to tell ?, would any sensors (eg lamda) get > damaged ? O2 sensor will probably get (lead dep) contaminated and set a code. Buick racers often convert to the 3-wire (heated) sensors to combat this problem. The heated sensors hold up to leaded fuel much better that the simpler one-wire units. I have an AC/Delco unit right here. There are two numbers on the box. 213-16 and 10096129.. It is a heated O2 sensor for GMC Syclone/Typhoon 4.3 liter V6. The race fuels (Cam2, VP, etc) are heavily leaded, and a heated o2 sensor can live for 3-9 months under those nasty conditions. I think it's reasonable to assume that a heated sensor would live much longer with 'lightly'(?) leaded fuels. Check your prestent sensor to see if it is 1 or 3 wire design. If you switch from a single wire, to a 3 wire, contact me, and I'll find out the exact wiring etc. A more crude approach, which GMC used on Syclones that were shipped to SaudiArabia, would be to snip the sensor wire, and disable the O2 error flag in the ROM chip. It was known as the 'NM8' leaded gas chip, Base inj pulse & spark tables were a litlle different too. Sorry so long winded. Hope it helps Mike V From ayoung at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jan 2 17:31:56 1998 From: ayoung at ndirect.co.uk (Alastair Young) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:31:56 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: > a) On a GM vehicle, 2ltr 16V, ECU, CAT, EGR, knock sensor etc. > Removing the CAT and running on Leaded fuel (higher octane rating). > Would ECU be able to tell ?, would any sensors (eg lamda) get > damaged ? > > b) At some later time reverting to unleaded then replacing the CAT, > after allowing a suitable time/mileage to 'flush' out any lead > deposits. > > c) What would be a suitable time/mileage...i.e. how long would any > lead deposits linger in the engine ? Martin , Just something else that can be a problem is that the petrol filler nozzle is larger for leaded fuel and you will find that it won't fit into the smaller filler hole of unleaded petrol cars . Alastair Young ayoung at ndirect.co.uk From ayoung at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jan 2 17:36:23 1998 From: ayoung at ndirect.co.uk (Alastair Young) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:36:23 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: > Does anyone know what they do for O2 sensors in > places where they sell just leaded. I've heard that > it's the same sensor, and some folks run the leaded > (with no cat), and don't have much of a problem. Here in the UK Cats were not mandatory until 1992 , all the cars I have had pre 1990 did not have a O2 sensor fitted . Does anyone know if there is a O2 sensor that can be used with leaded fuel ? Alastair Young ayoung at ndirect.co.uk From mpc at genevaonline.com Fri Jan 2 17:53:06 1998 From: mpc at genevaonline.com (Squash) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:53:06 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: i thought that real unleaded fuel was outlawed in the US of A?? The "leaded" fuel that you can sometimes find has an additive in it. This is what i heard! -- Andy Quaas bruce plecan wrote: > > Does anyone know what they do for O2 sensors in > places where they sell just leaded. I've heard that > it's the same sensor, and some folks run the leaded > (with no cat), and don't have much of a problem. > > Seems on some race car stuff they don't last very > long, but is that do to high Exhaust Gas Temps?, > any one, care to comment?. > > Then rumor has it that using a heated O2 sensor > makes them much more livable on leaded. > TIA Bruce From sfgent at ac.net Fri Jan 2 18:18:02 1998 From: sfgent at ac.net (sfg) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:18:02 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: bruce plecan wrote: > > Does anyone know what they do for O2 sensors in > places where they sell just leaded. ...snip I fully expected my Blazer to go into open loop after extended use on leaded, so I watched it carefully just to see. Figured the O2 sensor would die and CAT would clog. Nothing happened. Fuel mileage actually improved a tad. Then after returning to USA, I again was amazed that I passed emissions with the same O2 sensor I had used on leaded gas overseas! I bought the Diacom kit before leaving, in anticipation of trouble w/lead. O2 mV changes were noted before, after and during lead. All was unremarkable (unheated OEM O2 sensor). Steve From sfgent at ac.net Fri Jan 2 18:20:11 1998 From: sfgent at ac.net (sfg) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:20:11 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: ...snip > Martin , Just something else that can be a problem is that the petrol > filler nozzle is larger for leaded fuel and you will find that it > won't fit into the smaller filler hole of unleaded petrol cars . > > Alastair Young > ayoung at ndirect.co.uk plastic mini nozzles for downsizing the tip are commonly available in leaded markets. Steve From e.schumacher at postoffice.worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 2 18:47:46 1998 From: e.schumacher at postoffice.worldnet.att.net (eric schumacher) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:47:46 -0500 Subject: EPROMS Message-ID: Reading is always safe and all versions are compatible. When it comes to writing each must have the correct alogrythim and voltage or the parts may be damaged. There is often a clue on the lid such as 12.5 indicates 12.5 volt programming. At 05:27 AM 1/2/98 +0000, you wrote: >I've been using 2732As, and now find out they are "supposed" to be 27c32s?. >Now on the 27128, 27256, 27c128, 27c256, what do I do?. Is there a > From phil at moller.com Fri Jan 2 20:58:39 1998 From: phil at moller.com (Phil Wiggins) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:58:39 -0500 Subject: EPROMS Message-ID: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD177D.FB08CA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What if somebody else wants to use that cone shaped hat? -----Original Message----- From: bruce plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net] Sent: Thursday, January 01, 1998 9:27 PM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: EPROMS I've been using 2732As, and now find out they are "supposed" to be 27c32s?. Now on the 27128, 27256, 27c128, 27c256, what do I do?. Is there a difference in the 27128 to 27c128, and my lil book shows a difference in programming pins, and voltages from 27128 to 27256's. Is there a "safe" way to try and read one first?. Thankx again Bruce nacelp at bright.net Cone shaped hat gettin too comfortable to want to take off ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD177D.FB08CA10 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhwUAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAEAIAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZp MzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAIB918BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QC AAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy 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-0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: What kind of E-prom is it in a efi unit belonging to a GM TBI unit, size type etc.. (chev,1989) / Janne From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 2 23:55:44 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:55:44 -0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: Jan W?nnman wrote: > > What kind of E-prom is it in a efi unit belonging to a GM TBI unit, size > type etc.. (chev,1989) > > / Janne If it is a 1227747 computer it is a 2732a intel type chip.......HTH -Carl Summers From clsnyde at ibm.net Sat Jan 3 14:34:20 1998 From: clsnyde at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:34:20 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > >a) On a GM vehicle, 2ltr 16V, ECU, CAT, EGR, knock sensor etc. > > Removing the CAT and running on Leaded fuel (higher octane rating). > > Would ECU be able to tell ?, would any sensors (eg lamda) get > >damaged ? > > Howdy. > > Without a doubt, the O2 (Lambda) and Cat would be damaged with leaded fuel. > Other than that, your car will adjust once a few gallons roam through the > engine. I've done it, though not using the OEM computer, but an > aftermarket system (Haltach in my case). Racing gasoline at the tracks, if > leaded, generally has a higher octane level than unleaded pump gasoline, > hence why this was necessary. > > >c) What would be a suitable time/mileage...i.e. how long would any > >lead deposits linger in the engine ? > > Not very long, I'm going to guess here and say maybe a tankful or so. > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > > --- When lead was taken out of the gas, it was determined that running one tankful of leaded in ten was more than enough to prevent damage to valves and seats on the older engines, for what that's worth. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B NOTE!!!! To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From yorker at deltanet.com Sat Jan 3 14:51:51 1998 From: yorker at deltanet.com (Robert Yorke) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:51:51 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: Frederic:

How has your experience been with the Haltec?  I'm thinking of buying the "GME6" version for my car (Their GME6 comes already plumbed to plug into the existing 24/32 pin-connectored GM harness and is already wired to work with the existing engine peripherals such as MAP, EGR, Torque Converter Clutch solenoid, etc; but not the knock sensor); the "jobber" price is $593.  Can you provide any user-experienced caveats on this company?

Many Thanks!


At 10:21 AM 1/2/1998 -0500, you wrote:
Snipped

>Without a doubt, the O2 (Lambda) and Cat would be damaged with leaded fuel.
> Other than that, your car will adjust once a few gallons roam through the
>engine.=A0 I've done it, though not using the OEM computer, but=20 an
>aftermarket system (Haltach in my case).=A0

Snipped

>Frederic Breitwieser
>Bridgeport, CT 06606
>
>http://www.xephic.dynip.com/
>
>---
> From nacelp at bright.net Sat Jan 3 15:54:13 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:54:13 -0500 Subject: EPROMS Message-ID: I do have a couple of spare hats, if ya want one I'll send it as an attachment (it's not broken in, no implied warranty, etc.) Claybrook, and nader refused to autograph them. So there is limited collector valve also. Bruce From wenning.motorsport at t-online.de Sat Jan 3 19:18:11 1998 From: wenning.motorsport at t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:18:11 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: > Anybody have ideas on the consequences of the following actions ?: > > a) On a GM vehicle, 2ltr 16V, ECU, CAT, EGR, knock sensor etc. > Removing the CAT and running on Leaded fuel (higher octane rating). > Would ECU be able to tell ?, would any sensors (eg lamda) get > damaged ? The ECU will realize the higher octane rate as the knock sensor?s detonation rate decreases. Leaded fuel will destroy your lambda sensor in a very short time!!! From pft101 at psu.edu Sun Jan 4 02:34:23 1998 From: pft101 at psu.edu (Paul Tholey) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:34:23 -0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: I would like to make a custom performance chip for my dad. He has a 1989 Blazer 1500. It has the 1227747 computer. Dose anyone have a stock or performance file? It would help so I would not have to bring the chip up to school, and therefore disable the truck. This will be my first time attempting such a task, any assistance would be much appreciated. Paul Tholey >Jan W?nnman wrote: >> >> What kind of E-prom is it in a efi unit belonging to a GM TBI unit, size >> type etc.. (chev,1989) >> >> / Janne > >If it is a 1227747 computer it is a 2732a intel type chip.......HTH >-Carl Summers > > From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 4 04:11:27 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:11:27 -0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: Paul Tholey wrote: > > I would like to make a custom performance chip for my dad. He has a 1989 > Blazer 1500. It has the 1227747 computer. Dose anyone have a stock or > performance file? It would help so I would not have to bring the chip up to > school, and therefore disable the truck. This will be my first time > attempting such a task, any assistance would be much appreciated. > > Paul Tholey > > >Jan W?nnman wrote: > >> > >> What kind of E-prom is it in a efi unit belonging to a GM TBI unit, size > >> type etc.. (chev,1989) > >> > >> / Janne > > > >If it is a 1227747 computer it is a 2732a intel type chip.......HTH > >-Carl Summers > > > > Paul, Regarding the file I just sent...Checksum is at 0 and 1 and is calculated from 0004 to 0fff......have fun. Make sure you correct that after making changes in the program. -Carl Summers From nacelp at bright.net Sun Jan 4 05:02:57 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:02:57 -0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: Could I see the file?. Is it a stock one or modified?. Inquiring minds blah blah blah, OK I'll admit it jus nosey. On a similiar note has anyone tried, heard, or played with the Az Speed+Marine Carprom thing?. Bruce Cone shaped hats are becoming a natinal trend-spread the word From nacelp at bright.net Sun Jan 4 05:14:51 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:14:51 -0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: OK, just something I ran into, on the 1227747, there is an entry for a "spark adder", which seems to be a figure that the ECM juggles in one hand while doing other things. Running 6d BTDC, and a 6d spark adder seems to work out nicely. Running less than 6 in the adder seems to make the performance tempermental, and higher numbers seem to make it lackluster. Someone probably has a more indepth view, but this is again one of those things that just work for me. HTH Bruce nacelp at bright.net From dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 4 05:28:28 1998 From: dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net (Ron Tyler) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:28:28 -0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: Cone shaped hats are becoming a natinal trend-spread the word Where can I purcahase one of these cone shaped hat's? From nacelp at bright.net Sun Jan 4 05:34:56 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:34:56 -0500 Subject: 2732 eprom removal Message-ID: On the GM 2732 series, there is another way to remove the chip, with your thumbs on the side with the fewest notches and forefinger opposite them squeeze the sides together, and bend the pins with that movement til they release. On the GN TType tech archives they have pics showing this. In the past I tried spreading them, and so far the squeeze seems less likely to ruin the chip. HTH Bruce nacelp at bright.net From cwebb at polarnet.com Sun Jan 4 07:17:16 1998 From: cwebb at polarnet.com (Ron & Cathy Webb) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:17:16 -0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: Ron Tyler wrote: > Cone shaped hats are becoming a natinal trend-spread the word > > Where can I purcahase one of these cone shaped hat's? They're bein' issued by the government. Ya get'em in those places that used to be called "schools"! From bcoop at totacc.com Sun Jan 4 16:18:17 1998 From: bcoop at totacc.com (Brad Cooper) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 11:18:17 -0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: What the hell is a cone-shaped hat? Ron Tyler wrote: > Cone shaped hats are becoming a natinal trend-spread the word > > Where can I purcahase one of these cone shaped hat's? -- Brad "Coop" Cooper 1989 Camaro RS 305 TBI, 160 degree thermostat, Edelbrock T.E.S., Turbo City TBI, Flowmaster muffler, High Flow cat, March Pulley's, Mallory HighFire IV, B&M Megashifter, Replica 427 Corvette Hood, 265/50 15's on Cragar DragStars. From bcoop at totacc.com Sun Jan 4 16:26:55 1998 From: bcoop at totacc.com (Brad Cooper) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 11:26:55 -0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: What type of eqipment are you using to modify the chip? Paul Tholey wrote: > I would like to make a custom performance chip for my dad. He has a 1989 > Blazer 1500. It has the 1227747 computer. Dose anyone have a stock or > performance file? It would help so I would not have to bring the chip up to > school, and therefore disable the truck. This will be my first time > attempting such a task, any assistance would be much appreciated. > > Paul Tholey > > >Jan W?nnman wrote: > >> > >> What kind of E-prom is it in a efi unit belonging to a GM TBI unit, size > >> type etc.. (chev,1989) > >> > >> / Janne > > > >If it is a 1227747 computer it is a 2732a intel type chip.......HTH > >-Carl Summers > > > > -- Brad "Coop" Cooper 1989 Camaro RS 305 TBI, 160 degree thermostat, Edelbrock T.E.S., Turbo City TBI, Flowmaster muffler, High Flow cat, March Pulley's, Mallory HighFire IV, B&M Megashifter, Replica 427 Corvette Hood, 265/50 15's on Cragar DragStars. From dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 4 20:06:57 1998 From: dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net (Ron Tyler) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:06:57 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: Howdy, Could someone please clarify what resistance each style of injector requires to live a long healthy life. Thanx in advance, Ron Tyler From cwebb at polarnet.com Sun Jan 4 20:40:43 1998 From: cwebb at polarnet.com (Ron & Cathy Webb) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:40:43 -0500 Subject: ECU numbers on GM Message-ID: Recently decided to take a close look at the GM ECU for a project. Don't know much about them, except they are 68HC11 based, with most of the chips identifiable. Where can I get info on what the 7 digit ECU numbers mean? 1227747 means what? Is This a hardware mod, or only a firmware rev? Can someone point me to a compendium of what is known about the things, so I don't re-invent the wheel? From martin at mgass.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 4 21:09:31 1998 From: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk (martin at mgass.demon.co.uk) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:09:31 -0500 Subject: Opel/Vauxhall's unconnected socket in the engine bay Message-ID: Thanks for the reply Alexander.. >Yes, it is. I own a Vectra B 2.0l 16V (model 1997) and a Tigra 1.6 16V (model >1996). Both have these connectors. I'll have a look at my cars and tell you >exactly the position after christmas. Interesting, I wonder where would one go to get a suitable plug to put in this socket ? ....What would the pin-outs be ? ..Is it an all-range effect or low.. mid.. top-end only ? Someone must know ! >They are too rich at full throttle and a lean mixture gains some horsepower from >the engine. Our technicians have already tried by changing the maps. Out of interest how do you go about changing the maps ? I presume you use a laptop PC connected via the ALDL with suitable software. Do you have any problem with prom checksums ? Roughly how much bhp gain could you get at top-end? Also what are your views on the current 2.0 16V tuning wise, I believe that they are a lot down (power-wise) on the earlier (approx. 1990) incarnation in the Astra GSI/GTE. I understand that the cams are set roughly the same but that valve sizes have been reduced and angles altered. I also understand that the current engine was a disappointment for Touring car racing and that the earlier engine has been re-homologated by running off a small batch of Vectras equiped with it.. >We can't remove the cat in Germany. Therefor we change the response time of the >lambda sensor in the eprom. After accelerating hard with a lean mixture it gets >rich again in order to cool the cat. I am not sure I understand this... are we saying that at full throttle the mixture is normally rich to preserve the cat ? and that the tune is to allow a period of leaner running followed then by a rich period to keep the cat happy ? I also observe that if one were to remove the cat then it would not be necessary to have a rich period, because there is nothing downstream to get damaged, also I presume you could go to the optimum lean setting ? >What is Diacom s/w??? Its US based diagnostic PC s/w for GM etc. (see rinda technologies, easy to find on the net). regards, Martin ---------------------------------------------------------- martin at mgass.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------- From lindross at inetdirect.net Sun Jan 4 21:27:46 1998 From: lindross at inetdirect.net (Scott Linder) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:27:46 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: Ron Tyler wrote: > Howdy, > > Could someone please clarify what resistance each style of > injector requires to live a long healthy life. > > Thanx in advance, Ron Tyler Ron, There is basicly two styles of injectors on the market. 1=high impedance 12-16 ohms 2=low impedance 1.5-3.0 ohms Both styles have a different purpose in life and each operate somewhat differently especially in the respect of applied current to operate. Usually tbi single units are low resistance but that is not always true as some port fuel ( ex: gm quad four) are low resistance also. Ohm testing is NOT a solid test as a injector winding may test perfect on a ohm test and fail under load. As a fuel injector reconditioning shop we current load test each injector 4-5 times during the reconditioning process as a quality control issue. What particular injector were you refering to and i can give you the exact specs. Jim Linder the injector " guru" www.lindertech.com From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Mon Jan 5 00:48:15 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:48:15 -0500 Subject: 2732 eprom removal Message-ID: bruce plecan wrote: > > On the GM 2732 series, there is another way to remove the > chip, with your thumbs on the side with the fewest notches > and forefinger opposite them squeeze the sides together, > and bend the pins with that movement til they release. > On the GN TType tech archives they have pics showing > this. In the past I tried spreading them, and so far the > squeeze seems less likely to ruin the chip. > HTH Bruce nacelp at bright.net After breaking the first holder I tried to remove a 2732 from I got a sharp knife and bent the pins in slightly(the side with 3 pins in each segment) and the eprom pops out then take the knife again and straighten all the pins at once......works for me.... -Carl Summers From synchris at ricochet.net Mon Jan 5 05:02:46 1998 From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 00:02:46 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: Scott Linder wrote: > Ron Tyler wrote: > > > Could someone please clarify what resistance each style of > > injector requires to live a long healthy life. > > There is basicly two styles of injectors on the market. > 1=high impedance 12-16 ohms > 2=low impedance 1.5-3.0 ohms > > Both styles have a different purpose in life and each operate somewhat > differently especially in the respect of applied current to operate. > ... I have a related question. I'm putting together an additional injector setup for my engine, and I'm one of those cranks who thinks that fuel evaporation isn't very complete, especially in a TPI setup. (Ok, call me neurotic or whatever ;) I'd like to Do Something about this supposed problem, so I plan on a quad TBI setup. (In addition to the stock TPI system) Once I figure out what flow rate injectors to use, how do I go about picking units with the finest possible spray? OTOH if this is a non-problem, or I'll be *causing* problems, please enlighten my just-gotta-go-messin-with-things butt. ;) Thanks all, Chris C. From nacelp at bright.net Mon Jan 5 06:25:30 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:25:30 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: ref Conlon In Grumpy Jenkins Book he covers Individual runner manifolds a little, ya might call one of the outfits that still sells a quad weber manifold setup to get the butterfly sizes. Off the top of my head as I recall they used 2"-2.062" butterflies, on the SBC. In the TPIS manual they show some injectors at 39+50 PSI spray patterns, ya might find that interesting. Supposedly the disc type have a "better" pattern, but they are expensive. RC Engineering (torrance CA?) does alot along these lines. Last month I did a post about compression ratio, BMFC, injector sizing. HTH Bruce nacelp at bright.net May be a court battle brewing over federal guide lines for crash testing cone shaped hats, may resort to donations to fight the evil empire. My oxygen saturation must be low, I'm beginning to beleive myself. From dzorde at geocities.com Mon Jan 5 08:53:18 1998 From: dzorde at geocities.com (dzorde) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 03:53:18 -0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: Well I've always been partial to collecting the ones that tend to hang around roadworks. Usually come in two sizes small, and extra tall. Also, come in handy when setting up motorkhana tracks. Dan dzorde at geocities.com >Cone shaped hats are becoming a natinal trend-spread the word > > > > Where can I purcahase one of these cone shaped hat's? > From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon Jan 5 10:33:48 1998 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 05:33:48 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: -> May be a court battle brewing over federal guide lines for -> crash testing cone shaped hats, Some people *need* cone shaped hats. "We are from France..." From gderian at cybergate.net Mon Jan 5 13:39:31 1998 From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:39:31 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: With non sequential port fuel injection, fuel puddles behind the intake valve. When the valve opens, residual exhaust blows it upstream causing good vaporization. Other things to try are heating the intake air and heating the fuel. I believe Honda's last turbocharged Formula 1 engine heated the fuel to 70 degrees C. Gasoline has an end point around 300 degrees. If you heat it to 150 or so, much of it will vaporize as it comes out of the injectors. Heat it to 300 and you can be injecting vapor. Under pressure in the fuel rail it would be liquid. As it flowed past the injectors, it would flash into vapor. I'm not recommending that you actually do this. I don't think I would want 300 degree fuel flowing around my car. Gary Derian Chris Conlon wrote: >I have a related question. I'm putting together an additional injector setup >for my engine, and I'm one of those cranks who thinks that fuel evaporation >isn't very complete, especially in a TPI setup. (Ok, call me neurotic or >whatever ;) I'd like to Do Something about this supposed problem, so I plan >on a quad TBI setup. (In addition to the stock TPI system) Once I figure out >what flow rate injectors to use, how do I go about picking units with the >finest possible spray? > >OTOH if this is a non-problem, or I'll be *causing* problems, please enlighten >my just-gotta-go-messin-with-things butt. ;) > > Thanks all, > Chris C. From dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net Mon Jan 5 14:30:52 1998 From: dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net (Ron Tyler) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 09:30:52 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: Scott, I am not refering to any particular injector. I've been asked on occasion what is neccessary and I would like to give a better answer than "I think you need.." My understanding has been that high impedance needed no resistance and that low needs around 5-6 ohms. Your saying that it's dependant on brand/model? Bosh would'nt be the same as Multec? Where does Peek&Hold/Saturated fit into this picture? Thanx again, Ron Tyler > > Ron, > > There is basicly two styles of injectors on the market. > 1=high impedance 12-16 ohms > 2=low impedance 1.5-3.0 ohms > > Both styles have a different purpose in life and each operate somewhat > differently especially in the respect of applied current to operate. > Usually tbi single units are low resistance but that is not always true > as some port fuel ( ex: gm quad four) are low resistance also. > Ohm testing is NOT a solid test as a injector winding may test perfect > on a ohm test and fail under load. > As a fuel injector reconditioning shop we current load test each > injector 4-5 times during the reconditioning process as a quality > control issue. > > What particular injector were you refering to and i can give you the > exact specs. > > Jim Linder > the injector " guru" > www.lindertech.com From bruno at icd.teradyne.com Mon Jan 5 16:04:10 1998 From: bruno at icd.teradyne.com (Christopher Bruno) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:04:10 -0500 Subject: Pintle caps and O-rings Message-ID: Hey gang, I have finished cleaning (well almost finished) the entire manifold and plenum of the GM TPI that I'm swapping into my S-10. So, I decided I would clean up the outside of the injectors (there was some surface rust on a few of them. Upon close inspection of them I noticed that the pintle cap was cracked on one of them. So, this pintle cap was easily removed and then I decided to try to remove the pintle caps on the others to make it easy to replace the lower o-ring. Well, I broke two more pintle caps before deciding that I shouldn't try this without some advice. So I have a couple of questions: -Does anybody know how to remove the pintle caps without breaking them? -Does anybody know a good supply (read CHEAP) for pintle caps and O-rings for Bosch injectors? Also, I wirebrushed the steel housing of the injectors to get the rust off using my bench grinder and the paint came off also (must have been a thin coat of paint). Anyways, the injectors look very cool when polished to a nice shine! Finally, there was a bit of discussion about injector cleaning a while back and backflushing, etc. And I would like to try to construct an assembly that would flush cleaning fluid through the injector in either direction (maybe by flipping a lever or switch or something). If I develop this assembly and create drawings for it would anybody else be interested in trying it out? Bruce, the circuit that you sketched a while back flipped the injector at a set frequency (if I'm not mistaken - just keep in mind that I'm an ME). Would it be possible to change one of the resistors in your circuit to a rheostat that would allow the duty cycle of the injector to change? This way you could run the injector at a lower frequency to wet and soak the injector, and then crank the frequency up a bit for the anticipated 'hammer' effect to clean the pintle (or whatever kind of injector there is). I was also thinking that a could design the fluid passages such that there would be a flutter in the fluid at the injector at certian flow rates. This flutter would act as an agitator to aid in the cleaning. To use this cleaner all that would be necessary would be compressed air and a 12volt power supply (this eliminates an expensive pump, though a pump could be used also). Any comments or suggestions? -- Christopher Bruno Teradyne 321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 Boston, MA 02118 617.422.2040 Office 617.422.2304 Fax bruno at icd.teradyne.com From phil at moller.com Mon Jan 5 17:02:47 1998 From: phil at moller.com (Phil Wiggins) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:02:47 -0500 Subject: Cone shaped hat Message-ID: A few of my friends act like I've already got one of those hats on. So I may just not know it's there, but send another one along anyway. Maybe you could just post the hat to the group so anyone that wants it can download it. Phil at moller.com From nacelp at bright.net Mon Jan 5 18:17:42 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:17:42 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: ref Derian That makes sense about the exhaust preheat. There have been a few comments about the Buick Turbo V-6s with SEFI, showing no improvement by actually being sequential, maybe a slight improvement in idle, but nowhere else. Kinda interesting also about Honda preheating the fuel, Kinda like Smokies Hot Vapor engine idea. Quess maybe Honda was first, if was during their F1 days. Bruce nacelp at bright.net Concerned citizens unite, the cone shaped hat attachment, has been stolen, Muldner, and Scully have supposedly taken the case. From iguest at lynx.dac.neu.edu Mon Jan 5 19:06:41 1998 From: iguest at lynx.dac.neu.edu (Iestyn Guest) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:06:41 -0500 Subject: Anyone heard of "Force Fuel Injection"?? Message-ID: Hi all - Has any one heard of Force Fuel Injection? Manufacturer of Hi-Performance Multi-port Electronic Fuel Injection Systems (EFI) There web page is http://www.force-efi.com/ I was thinking of doing business with these guys, and was wondering if anyone has had good experiences with them. Thanks very much. Iestyn Guest. From bruno at icd.teradyne.com Mon Jan 5 20:02:32 1998 From: bruno at icd.teradyne.com (Christopher Bruno) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:02:32 -0500 Subject: O-rings and Pintle caps Message-ID: In response to my own message I just thought I would let everybody know that I was able to order these from our own Jim Linder's Lindertech at a very reasonable price. And they even offered to mail them out and just have me mail them a check when I get them. It's nice to work with a trusting company. Hats off to you Jim.. -- Christopher Bruno Teradyne 321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 Boston, MA 02118 617.422.2040 Office 617.422.2304 Fax bruno at icd.teradyne.com From lindross at inetdirect.net Tue Jan 6 03:06:56 1998 From: lindross at inetdirect.net (Scott Linder) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:06:56 -0500 Subject: Pintle caps and O-rings Message-ID: Chris, We stock the bosch end caps and orings. A set of 8 caps and 16 orings is approx $ 13.00. The trick to removing the caps is heat, but some still break. We heat the caps prior to install at the recon shop. By the way we recondition, reverse flush, flow test, replace upper filters, orings, caps and ultrasonic clean each injector for $ 24.95 each. Check our web site at www.lindertech.com. Let me know if ya need the caps and orings. Jim Linder the injector " guru" Christopher Bruno wrote: > Hey gang, > I have finished cleaning (well almost finished) the entire > manifold and plenum of the GM TPI that I'm swapping into my S-10. > So, I decided I would clean up the outside of the injectors (there > was some surface rust on a few of them. Upon close inspection of them > I noticed that the pintle cap was cracked on one of them. So, this > pintle cap was easily removed and then I decided to try to remove the > pintle caps on the others to make it easy to replace the lower o-ring. > Well, I broke two more pintle caps before deciding that I shouldn't > try this without some advice. So I have a couple of questions: > -Does anybody know how to remove the pintle caps without > breaking them? > -Does anybody know a good supply (read CHEAP) for pintle > caps and O-rings for Bosch injectors? > > Also, I wirebrushed the steel housing of the injectors to get > the rust off using my bench grinder and the paint came off also (must > have been a thin coat of paint). Anyways, the injectors look very > cool when polished to a nice shine! > > Finally, there was a bit of discussion about injector cleaning > a while back and backflushing, etc. And I would like to try to > construct an assembly that would flush cleaning fluid through the > injector in either direction (maybe by flipping a lever or switch > or something). If I develop this assembly and create drawings for > it would anybody else be interested in trying it out? Bruce, the > circuit that you sketched a while back flipped the injector at a > set frequency (if I'm not mistaken - just keep in mind that I'm an ME). > Would it be possible to change one of the resistors in your circuit > to a rheostat that would allow the duty cycle of the injector to > change? This way you could run the injector at a lower frequency to wet > and soak the injector, and then crank the frequency up a bit for the > anticipated 'hammer' effect to clean the pintle (or whatever kind of > injector there is). > I was also thinking that a could design the fluid passages such > that there would be a flutter in the fluid at the injector at certian > flow rates. This flutter would act as an agitator to aid in the > cleaning. > To use this cleaner all that would be necessary would be > compressed air and a 12volt power supply (this eliminates an expensive > pump, though a pump could be used also). > Any comments or suggestions? > > -- > Christopher Bruno > Teradyne > 321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 > Boston, MA 02118 > 617.422.2040 Office > 617.422.2304 Fax > bruno at icd.teradyne.com From lindross at inetdirect.net Tue Jan 6 03:09:44 1998 From: lindross at inetdirect.net (Scott Linder) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:09:44 -0500 Subject: O-rings and Pintle caps Message-ID: Chris, ignore the previous e-mail from one of my guys. I had send them ourt to ya already. The real Jim Linder rbg :>) Christopher Bruno wrote: > In response to my own message I just thought I would let > everybody know that I was able to order these from our > own Jim Linder's Lindertech at a very reasonable price. > And they even offered to mail them out and just have me > mail them a check when I get them. It's nice to work > with a trusting company. > > Hats off to you Jim.. > > -- > Christopher Bruno > Teradyne > 321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 > Boston, MA 02118 > 617.422.2040 Office > 617.422.2304 Fax > bruno at icd.teradyne.com From lindross at inetdirect.net Tue Jan 6 03:22:13 1998 From: lindross at inetdirect.net (Scott Linder) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:22:13 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: Ron, injector resistance is a wide section of discussion. Ex: A Bosch unit in a 2.8 GM is usually from 15-16 ohms and the multec is approx 12 ohms. usually the ecm could handle the current from either unit but the bosch units would operate at a slightly lower current draw. peak and hold units are usually 1.5 to 3 ohms if in the GM product lines. High performance units are sometimes low resistance due to the pintle not wishing to lift at high pressures. Jim Linder the injector " guru" www.lindertech.com Ron Tyler wrote: > Scott, > > I am not refering to any particular injector. I've been asked on > occasion what is neccessary and I would like to give a better answer > than "I think you need.." > > My understanding has been that high impedance needed no resistance > and that low needs around 5-6 ohms. Your saying that it's dependant on > brand/model? Bosh would'nt be the same as Multec? > > Where does Peek&Hold/Saturated fit into this picture? > > Thanx again, Ron Tyler > > > > > Ron, > > > > There is basicly two styles of injectors on the market. > > 1=high impedance 12-16 ohms > > 2=low impedance 1.5-3.0 ohms > > > > Both styles have a different purpose in life and each operate somewhat > > differently especially in the respect of applied current to operate. > > Usually tbi single units are low resistance but that is not always true > > as some port fuel ( ex: gm quad four) are low resistance also. > > Ohm testing is NOT a solid test as a injector winding may test perfect > > on a ohm test and fail under load. > > As a fuel injector reconditioning shop we current load test each > > injector 4-5 times during the reconditioning process as a quality > > control issue. > > > > What particular injector were you refering to and i can give you the > > exact specs. > > > > Jim Linder > > the injector " guru" > > www.lindertech.com From lindross at inetdirect.net Tue Jan 6 03:23:50 1998 From: lindross at inetdirect.net (Scott Linder) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:23:50 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: Ron, go to www.lindertech.com and ask for our latest injection class handout with resistance specs and peggy will send ya a copy. include your snail mail address. Jim Linder Ron Tyler wrote: > Scott, > > I am not refering to any particular injector. I've been asked on > occasion what is neccessary and I would like to give a better answer > than "I think you need.." > > My understanding has been that high impedance needed no resistance > and that low needs around 5-6 ohms. Your saying that it's dependant on > brand/model? Bosh would'nt be the same as Multec? > > Where does Peek&Hold/Saturated fit into this picture? > > Thanx again, Ron Tyler > > > > > Ron, > > > > There is basicly two styles of injectors on the market. > > 1=high impedance 12-16 ohms > > 2=low impedance 1.5-3.0 ohms > > > > Both styles have a different purpose in life and each operate somewhat > > differently especially in the respect of applied current to operate. > > Usually tbi single units are low resistance but that is not always true > > as some port fuel ( ex: gm quad four) are low resistance also. > > Ohm testing is NOT a solid test as a injector winding may test perfect > > on a ohm test and fail under load. > > As a fuel injector reconditioning shop we current load test each > > injector 4-5 times during the reconditioning process as a quality > > control issue. > > > > What particular injector were you refering to and i can give you the > > exact specs. > > > > Jim Linder > > the injector " guru" > > www.lindertech.com From terryk at foothill.net Tue Jan 6 05:24:07 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:24:07 -0500 Subject: Pintle caps and O-rings Message-ID: I place the caps in boiling water and they soften enough to snap them on. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Linder To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Pintle caps and O-rings >Chris, >We stock the bosch end caps and orings. A set of 8 caps and 16 orings is >approx $ 13.00. >The trick to removing the caps is heat, but some still break. We heat the >caps prior to install at the recon shop. >By the way we recondition, reverse flush, flow test, replace upper filters, >orings, caps and ultrasonic clean each injector for $ 24.95 each. >Check our web site at www.lindertech.com. >Let me know if ya need the caps and orings. > >Jim Linder >the injector " guru" > > >Christopher Bruno wrote: > >> Hey gang, >> I have finished cleaning (well almost finished) the entire >> manifold and plenum of the GM TPI that I'm swapping into my S-10. >> So, I decided I would clean up the outside of the injectors (there >> was some surface rust on a few of them. Upon close inspection of them >> I noticed that the pintle cap was cracked on one of them. So, this >> pintle cap was easily removed and then I decided to try to remove the >> pintle caps on the others to make it easy to replace the lower o-ring. >> Well, I broke two more pintle caps before deciding that I shouldn't >> try this without some advice. So I have a couple of questions: >> -Does anybody know how to remove the pintle caps without >> breaking them? >> -Does anybody know a good supply (read CHEAP) for pintle >> caps and O-rings for Bosch injectors? >> >> Also, I wirebrushed the steel housing of the injectors to get >> the rust off using my bench grinder and the paint came off also (must >> have been a thin coat of paint). Anyways, the injectors look very >> cool when polished to a nice shine! >> >> Finally, there was a bit of discussion about injector cleaning >> a while back and backflushing, etc. And I would like to try to >> construct an assembly that would flush cleaning fluid through the >> injector in either direction (maybe by flipping a lever or switch >> or something). If I develop this assembly and create drawings for >> it would anybody else be interested in trying it out? Bruce, the >> circuit that you sketched a while back flipped the injector at a >> set frequency (if I'm not mistaken - just keep in mind that I'm an ME). >> Would it be possible to change one of the resistors in your circuit >> to a rheostat that would allow the duty cycle of the injector to >> change? This way you could run the injector at a lower frequency to wet >> and soak the injector, and then crank the frequency up a bit for the >> anticipated 'hammer' effect to clean the pintle (or whatever kind of >> injector there is). >> I was also thinking that a could design the fluid passages such >> that there would be a flutter in the fluid at the injector at certian >> flow rates. This flutter would act as an agitator to aid in the >> cleaning. >> To use this cleaner all that would be necessary would be >> compressed air and a 12volt power supply (this eliminates an expensive >> pump, though a pump could be used also). >> Any comments or suggestions? >> >> -- >> Christopher Bruno >> Teradyne >> 321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 >> Boston, MA 02118 >> 617.422.2040 Office >> 617.422.2304 Fax >> bruno at icd.teradyne.com > > > > From A70Duster at aol.com Tue Jan 6 05:31:22 1998 From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:31:22 -0500 Subject: Anyone heard of "Force Fuel Injection"?? Message-ID: I've dealt with him, but I bought a used large runner TPI system from Force a couple of years ago. Forget the exact name of the guy, but he seemed to know his stuff yet wasn't a snotty. Hope this helps... See ya, Mike From nacelp at bright.net Tue Jan 6 06:35:45 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:35:45 -0500 Subject: Page Problem Message-ID: Has anyone been able to get the home page or archives yet?????. Bruce Fox thinks the clipper chip may be involved with filtering the cone shaped hat attachment. Since DOJ didn't have clout to get it approved, the EPA did. From alaint at boisfrancs.qc.ca Tue Jan 6 07:13:11 1998 From: alaint at boisfrancs.qc.ca (Alain Toussaint) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 02:13:11 -0500 Subject: Page Problem Message-ID: witch URL,i'll try it now (already have 3 i.e. windows open so a fourth open is not a big deal) -----Message d'origine----- De : bruce plecan ? : diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date : 6 janvier, 1998 02:21 Objet : Re: Page Problem >Has anyone been able to get the home page or archives yet?????. >Bruce Fox thinks the clipper chip may be > involved with filtering the >cone > shaped hat attachment. Since > DOJ didn't have clout to get >it > approved, the EPA did. > From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Tue Jan 6 11:19:08 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:19:08 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: >When lead was taken out of the gas, it was determined that running one >tankful of leaded in ten was more than enough to prevent damage to >valves and seats on the older engines, for what that's worth. That's an interesting factoid, I certainly didn't know that. When unleaded first disappeared, I panic'd and had a 3-angle valve job done, as well an overall re-build done as to avoid the hassle entirely. Might have saved me a few bucks. Next time :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ --- From clsnyde at ibm.net Tue Jan 6 13:11:54 1998 From: clsnyde at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:11:54 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > >When lead was taken out of the gas, it was determined that running one > >tankful of leaded in ten was more than enough to prevent damage to > >valves and seats on the older engines, for what that's worth. > > That's an interesting factoid, I certainly didn't know that. When unleaded > first disappeared, I panic'd and had a 3-angle valve job done, as well an > overall re-build done as to avoid the hassle entirely. Might have saved me > a few bucks. > > Next time :) > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > > --- The three angle may have done more harm than good. If hardened seats were not installed you just removed the "protected" layer of the seat, exposing raw iron.The lead coating does not take much to develop, and lasts a long time. If you don't believe me, ask a catalytic converter! A small amount of TL is all that is required for protection. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B NOTE!!!! To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From bmccord at whittman-hart.com Tue Jan 6 15:19:49 1998 From: bmccord at whittman-hart.com (bmccord at whittman-hart.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:19:49 -0500 Subject: Dodge ECM Message-ID: Ok, I have been reading the posting for several weeks now and am ready to ask what I hope is a serious question. What type of ECM does Dodge use on there late 80's and early 90's project and can I read the codes etc from it in the same manner described for the GM and Ford units. ( Would like to play with the the GM and Ford toys but I only have a Dodge that in my toy box) 8-( I have a 87 dodge shadow with the 2.2 dodge 4 and fule injection, it isnt the Mit. engine. I would like to experiment with it some could someone give me a "place to start" Thanks Billy McCord billy.mccord at whittman-hart.com From nacelp at bright.net Tue Jan 6 15:25:48 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:25:48 -0500 Subject: Page Problem Message-ID: The one I can't get is HTTP://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi Had my server try it also, and only once since 12/23/97, have I been able to get there Thanks Bruce From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Tue Jan 6 16:50:58 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:50:58 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: >How has your experience been with the Haltec? I'm thinking of buying the >"GME6" version for my car (Their GME6 comes already plumbed to plug into >the existing 24/32 pin-connectored GM harness and is already wired to >work with the existing engine peripherals such as MAP, EGR, Torque >Converter Clutch solenoid, etc; but not the knock sensor); the "jobber" price >is $593. Can you provide any user-experienced caveats on this company? Overall, both I and my bud like the unit we have, not sure offhand which one, but next time I stare at the firewall I'll let you know. Its about a year old I'd guestimate, and my friend was the one who purchased it, just happens to be in a car of mine (good friend's are hard to find, right?). Anyway, it works very well, has never given us one aota of trouble, except for when we did something to it, such as select the wrong map, ground the power lead (we ran out of red wire), and some other equally stupid things. We found their technical support to be "okay". Not amazing, but certainly better than other vendors I've dealt with. They always returned phone calls, but were a little slow. Also, I sensed frustration on their part after we called a few times, but overall I think its a good system. We aren't running any emissions stuff on the car its installed on, so installation wasn't complex at all, and I'm not sure if their products do or do not support emissions. Hope I helped. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ --- From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Tue Jan 6 16:51:02 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:51:02 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: >The three angle may have done more harm than good. If hardened seats >were not installed you just removed the "protected" layer of the seat, >exposing raw iron.The lead coating does not take much to develop, and >lasts a long time. If you don't believe me, ask a catalytic converter! A >small amount of TL is all that is required for protection. I can't say for sure... this was years ago before I had the courage to unbolt anything larger than a breadbox, however the vehicle had a lot more mileage placed on it and ran strong for about 80k miles after the rebuild, which is when I sold the vehicle. Sorry, can't say for sure. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ --- From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 7 00:49:08 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:49:08 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: Does anyone have an 87 GN bin file?????is this a 2732a?? also, What is the reason to change this to Accel's DFI? Is it because the MAF is too restrictive?? or for user freindly programming???or both??I just got off the phone with a guy that had someone put a DFI in his GN and now wants it programmed,,,,haven't used one before but am assuming maps are maps,,,,anyone have suggestions or a copy of the DFI software so I can peek before car arrives??????I also had heard of someone's software,,,,anybody got a copy(breaker breaker) any help(or addresses) is greatly aprreciated...... Thanks, -Carl Summers From nacelp at bright.net Wed Jan 7 02:08:03 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:08:03 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Your mail reader is not using the MIME attachment standard. To read all of this message, use a MIME V1.0 compliant reader. Some parts of this message may be in a human readable form. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --884149655=_Mail_2_=847202339 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Got some Bins yep 2732A's --884149655=_Mail_2_=847202339 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="GN87.BIN" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 7s9CQu7PQkJGRkZGRkZGRu7PQkLuz0JCRkZGRkZGRkbuz0JC7s9CQkZGRkZGRkZG7s9CQu7P QkJGRkZGRkZGQ3NXY25zV2Nuf3t7W397e1tzV2Nuc1djbn97e1t/e3tbc1djbnNXY25/e3tb f3t7W3NXY25zV2Nuf3t7W397e1tmf39yZn9/ckZGf8t/f3/LZn9/cmZ/f3J/f3/Lf39/y2Z/ f3Jmf39yRn9/y39/f8tmf39yZn9/cn9/f8t/f3/LV0pGf1dKRn/OzltXzs5bV1dKRn9XSkZ/ zs5bV87OW1dXSkZ/V0pGf87OW1fOzltXV0pGf1dKRn/OzltXzs5bV1JKRkZSSkZGYkdSUmJH UlJSSkZGUkpGRmJHUlJiR1JSUkpGRlJKRkZiR1JSYkdSUlJKRkZSSkZGYkdSUmJHUlJCTs9K Qk7PSupCckLqQnJCQk7PSkJOz0rqQnJC6kJyQkJOz0pCTs9K6kJyQupCckJCTs9KQk7PSupC ckLqQnJCYkZ/RmJGf0ZKSkZKSkpGSmJGf0ZiRn9GSkpGRkp/SkZiRn9GYkZ/RkpKRkpKSkZK 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Wed Jan 7 03:49:02 1998 From: H8carbs at aol.com (H8carbs) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:49:02 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_884144100_boundary Content-ID: <0_884144100 at inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 98-01-06 20:13:45 EST, you write: << > Does anyone have an 87 GN bin file?????is this a 2732a?? also, What is > the reason to change this to Accel's DFI? Is it because the MAF is too Carl, you didn't ask me that! Well maybe you did...... Enclosed is the Stock 87, KennBell hot-flash, Conley Mag4, Eastern Performance and Street Lethal. 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Uk9NUEsBAhQAFAAAAAgAzmhQHC+SH0QHDAAAABAAAAwAAAAAAAAAAAAgAAAANAwAAFNUUlRM VEhMLlJPTVBLAQIUABQAAAAIAJmibxdUnOSF7gsAAAAQAAAMAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAAAGUYAABI T1RGTEFTSC5ST01QSwECFAAUAAAACACvKFAcJB4KGxcMAAAAEAAACwAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAB9 JAAAU1RPQ0s4Ny5ST01QSwUGAAAAAAQABADjAAAAvTAAAAAA --part0_884144100_boundary-- From terryk at foothill.net Wed Jan 7 04:06:34 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:06:34 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: More bins I tell you, I must have more bins! Thanks, these should be interesting. I need your opinion. My 2.8L V6 has 15.86 lbs injectors. An injector size calculation says I need 18 lb injectors for 180HP at 6000 RPM. But at wide open throttle, the O2 reads 950mV. Do I need bigger injectors? TK -----Original Message----- From: bruce plecan To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ; diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 7:21 PM Subject: Re: Grand National >Got some Bins yep 2732A's From H8carbs at aol.com Wed Jan 7 04:38:30 1998 From: H8carbs at aol.com (H8carbs) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:38:30 -0500 Subject: Are the injectors big enough.. Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-06 23:26:56 EST, Terry wrote: << > My 2.8L V6 has 15.86 lbs injectors. An injector size calculation says I need > 18 lb injectors for 180HP at 6000 RPM. But at wide open throttle, the O2 > reads 950mV. Do I need bigger injectors? >> IMO, the current injectors sound just fine. If you make any mods to move more air through the engine (air filter, exhaust.etc), keep an eye on that o2 number. My Daicom appears to read a little high if that's possible. It reads 950 and the OTC is at 900.. But your 950 equates to plenty'o fuel.. Mike V From H8carbs at aol.com Wed Jan 7 04:43:11 1998 From: H8carbs at aol.com (H8carbs) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:43:11 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: >> Does anyone have an 87 GN bin file?????is this a 2732a?? also, What is th >> That ZIP was NOT meant to go to the list server.. sorry to all ... From clendenc at execpc.com Wed Jan 7 04:47:30 1998 From: clendenc at execpc.com (Chad Clendening,) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:47:30 -0500 Subject: Dodge ECM Message-ID: I briefly looked into a supposedly dead shadow or daytona brain ( 2.2, no turbo). As long as you are not afraid of digging out the pc boards from the silicone potting ( not difficult just time consuming and messy) and desoldering the EPROM it should be possible. The system appears to be based on the 6811 (A8 or E9 pinout). Chad From nacelp at bright.net Wed Jan 7 05:20:58 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:20:58 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: Ref TBK 15lbs/hr, 6 injectors, total 90 lbs/hr. At .5 BMFC that's 180 HP. Easy. Quick double check 950 mV, fine. Just to 3x check do a plug cut. Might be nice to check for fly turds on the center porcelian, jus to make sure there ain't any trace knock. Bruce Talk about invasion of privacy, they had 8x10 color glossies with a typed discription on the back, of me in my cone shaped hat From orin at wolfenet.com Wed Jan 7 06:03:22 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:03:22 -0500 Subject: Webs site is at... Message-ID: http://esl.eng.ohio-state.edu I know someone was looking for it recently. Orin. From nacelp at bright.net Wed Jan 7 06:26:32 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:26:32 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: ref H8carbs your mail is bouncing Bruce nacelp at bright.net From terryk at foothill.net Wed Jan 7 06:31:22 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:31:22 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: You are the only person in the group to have ever done that. Nope, not one single one of us have ever made that mistake. Well maybe one. Or two.... Three tops. Four at the outside. Five .... Join the club. TK -----Original Message----- From: H8carbs To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 9:41 PM Subject: Re: Grand National > >>> Does anyone have an 87 GN bin file?????is this a 2732a?? also, What is > th >> > >That ZIP was NOT meant to go to the list server.. sorry to all ... > From pfenske at direct.ca Wed Jan 7 07:39:16 1998 From: pfenske at direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:39:16 -0500 Subject: O2 sensor Message-ID: I hope the chap on the vettenet doesn't mind me copying this for you guys. Pls be careful with bin files.. :peter For those interested in the Bosch lead tolerant O2 sensor, the part number you want is: 0 258 104 002 also known as LSM11. The correct "Quoted Life in a leaded environment is:" at max .6 g/liter Pb, 20-30,000 km at max .4 g/liter Pb, 30-50,000 km at max .15 g/liter Pb, 80,000 km 100LL AVGAS contains .56 g/liter Pb. I've been running mine since Oct 20th or so, without any problems yet on nothing but AVGAS. Cost is roughly $270. Doug Bazarnic '85 383 407.6 rwhp, 397.7 ft/lbs From aep19 at IDT.NET Wed Jan 7 08:20:28 1998 From: aep19 at IDT.NET (Tony Pucillo) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 03:20:28 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: Clare and Frederic: I've heard about the 3-angle valve job (well, had 'em doneon every one in recent years) as an improvement for breathing and seating, but nothing about lead/no lead, etc. Maybe they inserted hardened seats at the same time. About the time lead started getting really scarce, the benefits of the 3AVJ were really becoming known and would probably have been recommended for any valve job done about then. [Machine shops aren't dumb. It's a few more bucks, they make a bit more, you get a better product.] Tony Pucillo [I speak only for myself unless I say otherwise. One personality is quite enough, thank you.] "Castigat ridendo mores" From ludis at netcom.com Wed Jan 7 10:01:46 1998 From: ludis at netcom.com (Ludis Langens) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:01:46 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: Gee, now I know what car(s) some of you are interested in! Bruce, your "GN87.BIN" and "89TA.BIN" dumps contain garbage. The other two sumchecked fine, although the "TURBO42.BIN" had eight extra bytes at the end. Interesting that your "stock" PROM differs from Mike's by one byte (plus the sumcheck.) For future reference, what ECM number do these PROMs go with? And does someone have a dump (to post) of the 8K of soldered in ROM from this ECM? unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; Ludis Langens return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + ludis at netcom.com (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} From iguest at lynx.dac.neu.edu Wed Jan 7 12:55:23 1998 From: iguest at lynx.dac.neu.edu (Iestyn Guest) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:55:23 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD1B41.179E81D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All - Sorry to be a drag, but what is the formula for calculating injector size based on HP and RPM? Thanks very much, Iestyn Guest -----Original Message----- From: bruce plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 3:18 AM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Grand National Ref TBK 15lbs/hr, 6 injectors, total 90 lbs/hr. At .5 BMFC that's 180 HP. Easy. Quick double check 950 mV, fine. Just to 3x check do a plug cut. Might be nice to check for fly turds on the center porcelian, jus to make sure there ain't any trace knock. 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As long as you are not afraid of digging out the pc boards > from the silicone potting ( not difficult just time consuming and messy) > and desoldering the EPROM it should be possible. The system appears to > be based on the 6811 (A8 or E9 pinout). > > Chad The Chrylser motorsports catalog lists off road only ECM's for the trubo cars. I don't think they are expensive and allow modifications to the engine. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Wed Jan 7 15:18:27 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:18:27 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: >Well maybe one. Or two.... Three tops. Four at the outside. Five .... >Join the club. Just be glad it was a teenie-tiny bin file. I was on a different list a few years back and some a$$wipe emailed the list his swap file "inadvertantly". These were the days when the company I worked at had a nice fast pipe - 56kb. Ouch. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ --- From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Wed Jan 7 15:18:28 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:18:28 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: > I've heard about the 3-angle valve job (well, had 'em doneon every one >in recent years) as an improvement for breathing and seating, but >nothing about lead/no lead, etc. Fair enough - I have to be honest and say this is not my forte, but I'm learning :) >job done about then. [Machine shops aren't dumb. It's a few more >bucks, they make a bit more, you get a better product.] Absolutely - and they certainly don't want engines coming back for free of charge warranty work :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ --- From afn14222 at afn.org Wed Jan 7 15:29:59 1998 From: afn14222 at afn.org (Chief) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:29:59 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: At 09:06 PM 1/6/1998 PST, you wrote: >Got some Bins yep 2732A's >Attachment Converted: C:\Internet\ufeudora\Attach\GN87.BIN > >Attachment Converted: C:\Internet\ufeudora\Attach\89TA.BIN > >Attachment Converted: C:\Internet\ufeudora\Attach\STOCK87.BIN > >Attachment Converted: C:\Internet\ufeudora\Attach\TURBO42.BIN > Silly question: How would I read .bin files such as these? What apps do yall use? Freeware? Ed Hilker aka "Chief" '84 SS - 700R4 From k0ts at millcomm.com Wed Jan 7 15:48:48 1998 From: k0ts at millcomm.com (Joe F) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:48:48 -0500 Subject: New injectors? Message-ID: I was chatting with a woman recently and she mentioned she had just spent $700 to replace 5 injectors. The car is a Pontiac (don't know the engine) and it has 80k miles. 1. It sounds like injectors cost about $100 each. Is that the going rate from your "friendly" dealer? 2. Do injectors fail at what I think is "low" mileage? What happens to them? Why? She did say it was idling poorly and it now runs well. thanks joe From mfahrion at bb-elec.com Wed Jan 7 16:25:26 1998 From: mfahrion at bb-elec.com (Mike Fahrion) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:25:26 -0500 Subject: GM '96-'97 ECU? Message-ID: I want to play around with the computer out of a modern GM, but it would sure be a lot more convenient to not have it surounded by a car... If I get one from the junk yard, how much extra "stuff" would I need to get with it in order to do some basic communications? Any guesses? My vision to have just the computer, plug it into my own power supply, and be able to do some basic work right on my desk. Am I way off? Thanks -mike mfahrion at bb-elec.com From sganz at wgn.net Wed Jan 7 16:58:23 1998 From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:58:23 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: Do we have an archive of the bin files on the FTP site, might make for a good repository of them. Sandy At 10:35 PM 1/6/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-06 20:13:45 EST, you write: > ><< >> Does anyone have an 87 GN bin file?????is this a 2732a?? also, What is >> the reason to change this to Accel's DFI? Is it because the MAF is too > >Carl, you didn't ask me that! Well maybe you did...... > >Enclosed is the Stock 87, KennBell hot-flash, > Conley Mag4, Eastern Performance and Street Lethal. >Mike V > >Attachment Converted: "D:\EUDORA\DOWNLOAD\GN.zip" > From nacelp at bright.net Wed Jan 7 17:14:12 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:14:12 -0500 Subject: New injectors? Message-ID: Ref Joe $100 for a new injector depending on what it is ain't bad, but there are other options, some of the list members recondition them for a lot less. But some dealers have to sell x number of dollars of parts, and really ain'r out to do ya any favors. But it's like the old story, ya ever haggle over prices at the grocery?. Bruce Was thinking of forming a militia but the cone shaped hats would make us easy targets, From nacelp at bright.net Wed Jan 7 17:17:03 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:17:03 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: OK tried the new address, got the home page, bowling's stuff can't be found, and the archives closed, anyone got any clues??. Thanks Bruce Ring leader, 1st Platoon, Cone shaped hat brigade, From orin at wolfenet.com Wed Jan 7 18:50:12 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:50:12 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: > OK tried the new address, got the home page, bowling's > stuff can't be found, and the archives closed, anyone > got any clues??. Yes, ftp site is currently awol. Web sit will be returning to efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu soon. Orin. From amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us Wed Jan 7 19:05:10 1998 From: amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us (amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:05:10 -0500 Subject: GM '96-'97 ECU? Message-ID: Mike No. I have GM computer all very neatly mocked up. It has a fuel tank withe the pump and the TBI sets on top so it refills itself(with paint thinner) . there is a variable voltage powersupply sto simulate the sensors. There are test points to measure voltages, and there are switches to simulate faults. There was at least one company producing these for the educational market. Bob McKnight Phx AZ From c.pugsley at trl.telstra.com.au Wed Jan 7 23:00:48 1998 From: c.pugsley at trl.telstra.com.au (Craig Pugsley) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:00:48 -0500 Subject: GM 3.8 v6 - add supercharger. Message-ID: Hi there, Do any of the GM gurus out there know if the supercharger on the current 3.8 v6 will bolt directly onto a non-supercharged version of the same and if only the memcal needs to be changed? Considering this swap for my 1995 Holden commodore. I think despite it being RWD it is otherwise identical to the FWD 3.8 v6 sold in the USA. Cheers, Craig. From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 7 23:26:59 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:26:59 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: Iestyn Guest wrote: > > Hi All - > > Sorry to be a drag, but what is the formula for calculating injector size based on HP and RPM? > > Thanks very much The way I have always done it is: HP x BSFC divided by # of injectors= injector size.....note brake specific fuel consumption is generally .45 -.5 for aspirated applications and .55 for blown or turbo,,,,but have seen some pro stock motorcycles as low as .39.....hope that helps.... -Carl Summers From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Wed Jan 7 23:48:47 1998 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Steve Lamb) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:48:47 -0500 Subject: GM 3.8 v6 - add supercharger. Message-ID: >Do any of the GM gurus out there know if the supercharger on the current >3.8 v6 will bolt directly onto a non-supercharged version of the same >and if only the memcal needs to be changed? I doubt it, Craig, as with most turbo/supercharging there are usually other mods to the engine - for example to lower compression, strengthen bottom end (not always - depends on original NA design), different camshafts, etc, etc. As it happens my brother-in-law is an engineer at Holden's Lang Lang proving grounds so I can probably find out. I'll be seeing him on the weekend so I'll ask about this. You may be interested to know that the supercharged V6 from Holden (GM - Oz)) will only be offered as an auto. The reason being that Holden found in testing that the engine blew pistons regular as clockwork if it was 'lugged' (ie low revs/high load situations). The ECU could be programmed to overcome this with an auto, but manuals were beyond their control (so to speak). The potential warranty problems gave them nightmares, I suspect. >Considering this swap for my 1995 Holden commodore. I think despite it >being RWD it is otherwise identical to the FWD 3.8 v6 sold in the USA. I think you would need to swap in the entire engine/ECU package, but, as I said, I'll find out. There is also at least one aftermarket supercharger add-on being offered for these engines (I think). I've seen one of these on a VS (?) V8 ute - underbonnet installation was very impressive in terms of qaulity. Performance was also pretty impressive - at a Calder sprint meet the guy was only beaten in terms of times by a very quick TR8 and an RB26DETT powered 240Z. Check out some of the local performance mags, I'm sure you'll find an ad for these somewhere. Cheers Steve Lamb Department of Defence, DSTO Aeronautical and Maritime Research Laboratory 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From jshapiro at bit-net.com Thu Jan 8 00:17:12 1998 From: jshapiro at bit-net.com (Jody Shapiro) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:17:12 -0500 Subject: Fuel line pressure drop (fwd) Message-ID: Sorry if people see this twice, I sent it out once before but never saw it come through. -Jody ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 11:46:40 -0800 From: Jody Shapiro To: jshapiro at bit-net.com Subject: Fuel line pressure drop I'm forwarding along a question from a friend of mine who's having fueling problems with a supercharged V8 (LT1 Camaro Z28). He recently rebuilt the engine and has been chasing insufficient fuel problems since. Estimated crank horsepower at redline is ~600hp - the car has been on a DynoJet chassis dyno and was making 450 rear-wheel horsepower at 5000rpm when the stock injectors would lock up . Redline on the car is 6500rpm and the engine is centrifugally supercharged, so there's a lot more boost/power lurking in the higher rpm range. The original problem was injector lock up at 5000rpm with the stock 24 lb/hr injectors and the ~90psi of fuel pressure that the FMU was creating. The stock injectors were replaced with Ford SVO (Bosche) 30lb/hr injectors and the static fuel pressure decreased. A Vortech SuperFMU (adjustable rate) was installed at the same time and has been tuned for appropriate fuel pressure at full boost. The current problem is that with the engine off, fuel pumps on, the boost/fuel-pressure curve can be dialed in correctly and the desired full-boost fuel pressure set (using a regulated air supply to simulate boost). With the engine running and the car actually making a wide-open-throttle run, the fuel pressure starts dropping above 5500rpm and things lean out (leading to audible detonation - good thing there's forged pistons in there now!). Current suspicion is that either (or both) the fuel lines are too small, or the intank (stock) fuel pump and the T-Rex in-line fuel pump are insufficient. The original thought was that it was cheaper to try increasing the fuel supply line size, but after doing the following calculations, we're not so sure and current thinking is leaning towards putting a larger Bosche in-tank pump in to replace the 2 currently in use (stock + external in-line). If the following math is correct, it would appear that larger fuel lines don't buy you much. Yet, on most serious forced-induction setups, you see larger fuel lines in use. Comments? Thanks, -Jody ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 08:24:55 -0800 From: Jeff Stevens Reply-To: ba-f-body at f-body.org To: ba-f-body at f-body.org, f-tech at colossus.net Subject: [ba] Prof. Jeff does Fluid Mechanics (long) Spent some quality time with my old college Fluid Mechanics textbook studying Reynolds numbers, dynamic viscosity, friction factors, and other cool stuff. If there are any Mech Eng in the audience, I'd greatly appreciate a sanity check on this. Assumptions: inner diameter (ID) of stock fuel supply tube: 0.34" (.028') ID of proposed -8AN braided steel hose: 0.45" length of stock line, T-Rex pump to fuel rail: 15' length of rerouted -8 hose: 10' (routed up firewall instead of over fenderwell) max fuel useage: 330lb/hr (600hp with BSFC of 0.55) specific gravity of gasoline: 0.69 specific weight of water: 62.4lb/ft^3 relative roughness of tube: 0 (smooth pipe) dynamic viscosity of gasoline: 2*10^(-5) (any petrol. eng. out there? please check this!) density of gasoline: 1.3 slug per ft^3 Step 1: velocity in stock tube: (330 lb) ( hr ) ( ft^3 ) ( 1 ) ------ * -------- * ------------- * ---------------- ( hr ) (3600 sec) (.69 * 62.4 lb) (PI * .014^2 ft^2) equals 3.4 ft per second. Step 2: Reynolds number: (1.3 slug) (3.4 ft) (.028 ft) ( ft-sec ) -------- * ------ * ------- * ----------- ( ft^3 ) ( sec ) ( 1 ) (2*10^5 slug) equals about 6200. Step 3: friction factor: from textbook graph, with smooth pipe & Reynolds # of 6200: equals about .034. Step 4: lost head, "h" h = friction factor * (length/diameter) * (vel^2 / 2g) ( 15 ft ) (3.4^2 ft^2) ( sec^2 ) ..034 * ------- * ---------- * ----------- (.028 ft) ( sec^2 ) (2 * 32.2 ft) equals 3.3 ft Step 5: pressure drop, delta-p delta-p = specific weight * h (62.4 lb) ( ft^2 ) (3.3 ft) ..69 * ------- * -------- * ------ ( ft^3 ) (144 in^2) ( 1 ) equals about 1 psi Conclusion: A 600hp motor pulling 330#/hr of gasoline through the puny stock fuel line only causes a 1 psi drop in fuel pressure from the pump discharge to the fuel rail. If this is true, why bother increasing the size of the fuel line? A 1 psi drop is nothing. I must have an error somewhere. Can anybody help me find it? Jeff 96Z M6, Blackstone shortblock/heads/intake, Vortech s-trim/SuperFMU, 30#/hr, CompCams Xtreme/1.6 RR, AS&M headers/58, Random cat, Borla, Crane HI-6/PS-91, McLeod Street Twin, 3.73, poly from tranny back, IRS panhard/RTAs From SSchaaf at ERINet.com Thu Jan 8 00:31:11 1998 From: SSchaaf at ERINet.com (Scott Schaaf) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:31:11 -0500 Subject: EPROMS Message-ID: bruce plecan wrote: > > I've been using 2732As, and now find out they are "supposed" to be 27c32s?. > Now on the 27128, 27256, 27c128, 27c256, what do I do?. Is there a > difference > in the 27128 to 27c128, and my lil book shows a difference in programming > pins, and voltages from 27128 to 27256's. Is there a "safe" way to try and > read > one first?. > Thankx again Bruce nacelp at bright.net Cone shaped hat gettin too > > comfortable to want to take > > off It is safe to READ a '128 as a '256, USUALLY what you will get is one of three bin map files. 1. Lower half of '256 memory map blank, (FF) means chip is a '128, A14 tied Low 2. Upper half of '256 memory map blank, (FF) means same as above, just A14 tied High 3. Lower and Upper half of memory map identical. means A14 is floating. Now BURNING them is a different story. Scott... From SSchaaf at ERINet.com Thu Jan 8 00:33:03 1998 From: SSchaaf at ERINet.com (Scott Schaaf) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:33:03 -0500 Subject: Aftermarket EFI systems? Message-ID: Jesse R. Ortiz wrote: > > Has anyone here ever had any experience with a TEC II, Haltech, Simple > Digital Systems, Accel, or any other Aftermarket programmable engine > management systems? I'm wanting to get more info on the difficulty of > programming, and the results that they give, such how 'streetable' they > really are. Could they be used on a daily driven car without "headaches" > once they are programmed? How difficult was it to attach to the wiring on > the car such, such as for fuel pump, ignition switch, etc? > Thanks.. > Jesse. Accel's DFI system is SIMPLE to program. It also appears that it will plug DIRECTLY into SOME GM harnesses. Scott... From SSchaaf at ERINet.com Thu Jan 8 00:35:02 1998 From: SSchaaf at ERINet.com (Scott Schaaf) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:35:02 -0500 Subject: eprom in GM TBI unit ?? Message-ID: Jan W?nnman wrote: > > What kind of E-prom is it in a efi unit belonging to a GM TBI unit, size > type etc.. (chev,1989) > > / Janne I have a '90 Chevy van, 350V8, TBI. The eprom in this ECM is a 2732. Rather small compared to other ECMs. Scott... From SSchaaf at ERINet.com Thu Jan 8 00:43:21 1998 From: SSchaaf at ERINet.com (Scott Schaaf) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:43:21 -0500 Subject: ECU numbers on GM Message-ID: Ron & Cathy Webb wrote: > > Recently decided to take a close look at the GM ECU for a > project. Don't know much about them, except they are 68HC11 > based, with most of the chips identifiable. > > Where can I get info on what the 7 digit ECU numbers mean? > 1227747 means what? Is This a hardware mod, or only a firmware > rev? Can someone point me to a compendium of what is known about > the things, so I don't re-invent the wheel? GOOD LUCK!!! It APPEARS to be 68HC11,,, BUTTT, the pinouts DO NOT mach that of any HC11. Nor do any of the other 54 pin chips. I have been trying DESPARATLY to find out about these ECMs, and to no avail. If you get lucky, PLEASE let me know. Scott... From nacelp at bright.net Thu Jan 8 00:44:43 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:44:43 -0500 Subject: Grand National Message-ID: HP x BMFC= total injector size 400HP x .5 (BMFC) would need 200 lbs/hr.. Some considerations are ya don't want to run the injectors much over 85% duty cycle. But the .5 is easy with a heathy engine. Dropping the compression lower raises the BMFC some, If you putting a bunch of heat in the intake tract can mess things up, some motors will like more fuel for tract cooling, and others won't want it due to loss of VE. Some real light highly geared cars will like a little extra, cause the motor acclerates so quickly, kinda like needing a huge acclerator pump. .45 for well tuned, and some claim to get just over .4, but I've never gotten that good. Motorcycles, multi valve (more than 2 per cyl) outta do the .4 Cheers Bruce Cone hatted camando From jtravel at nmia.com Thu Jan 8 01:31:04 1998 From: jtravel at nmia.com (James Travelstead) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:31:04 -0500 Subject: 4L60-E & 4T60-E Transmission Message-ID: Hello, I have a little project going and was wondering if anyone has had any experience with the after-market transmission computers, that could offer advice on the right one for my project. Thanks Any and All From nacelp at bright.net Thu Jan 8 01:42:31 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:42:31 -0500 Subject: Fuel line pressure drop (fwd) Message-ID: Your numbers are great for a steady state rate of flow, but that is not the case for a EFI car, the area above the injector must instantly fill for it to be accurate the next time it opens. In a nut shell on my 320 HP with a light car, I wound up with 1/2" supply for two 90 #/hr injectors. IMHO due to the above, granted I'm only at 12 PSI. But, Your most accurate tool might be using a pressure guage on the return line, and make sure the is a 1 or more pounds of back pressure, or your motor is running outta fuel. On the Hi HP Buicks one of the answers is two intank pumps with one for NA, and both for boost conditions Then there's the basics clean filter road damage to a supply line. OEM Routing ie. on mine the lines wrapped around the trans, and ran along a exhuast pipe. Bruce . From amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us Thu Jan 8 03:05:14 1998 From: amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us (amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:05:14 -0500 Subject: Fuel line pressure drop (fwd) Message-ID: Jody At wide open and fuel pressure dropping, is there any fuel being returned to the tank via the pressure regulator. Probably not, but its a cheap check. I check cheap then easy parts of the system first. Any fuel filters in the line, tank? Blow the lines out? Bob McKnight Phx AZ PS When the TV don't work, check the power plug. From terryk at foothill.net Thu Jan 8 03:09:26 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:09:26 -0500 Subject: 4L60-E & 4T60-E Transmission Message-ID: Cray X-MP. -----Original Message----- From: James Travelstead To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:18 PM Subject: 4L60-E & 4T60-E Transmission >Hello, > >I have a little project going and was wondering if anyone has >had any experience with the after-market transmission computers, >that could offer advice on the right one for my project. > >Thanks Any and All > From dapiper at mail.one.net Thu Jan 8 03:21:57 1998 From: dapiper at mail.one.net (David Piper) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:21:57 -0500 Subject: Fuel line pressure drop (fwd) Message-ID: >I'm forwarding along a question from a friend of mine who's having fueling >problems with a supercharged V8 (LT1 Camaro Z28). He recently rebuilt the >engine and has been chasing insufficient fuel problems since. Estimated >crank horsepower at redline is ~600hp - the car has been on a DynoJet >chassis dyno and was making 450 rear-wheel horsepower at 5000rpm when the >stock injectors would lock up . Redline on the car is 6500rpm and the >engine is centrifugally supercharged, so there's a lot more boost/power >lurking in the higher rpm range. > We have observed 560 to 600 HP on our Dynojet with 10 psig boost on 110 octane. >The original problem was injector lock up at 5000rpm with the stock 24 >lb/hr injectors and the ~90psi of fuel pressure that the FMU was creating. >The stock injectors were replaced with Ford SVO (Bosche) 30lb/hr injectors >and the static fuel pressure decreased. A Vortech SuperFMU (adjustable >rate) was installed at the same time and has been tuned for appropriate >fuel pressure at full boost. > The max press we have used for these inj is 62 psig which will increase fuel flow 12%. You need 36 pph inj for 600 HP at 0.50 #/BHP-hr. The above examples were using 36 pph inj and the 600 HP one was maxed out at 0.85 lambda. >The current problem is that with the engine off, fuel pumps on, the >boost/fuel-pressure curve can be dialed in correctly and the desired >full-boost fuel pressure set (using a regulated air supply to simulate >boost). With the engine running and the car actually making a >wide-open-throttle run, the fuel pressure starts dropping above 5500rpm >and things lean out (leading to audible detonation - good thing there's >forged pistons in there now!). You have a fuel supply restriction; pump, filter or regulator or too much pressure set at FMU. Is the FMU installed backwards? > >Current suspicion is that either (or both) the fuel lines are too small, >or the intank (stock) fuel pump and the T-Rex in-line fuel pump are >insufficient. The original thought was that it was cheaper to try >increasing the fuel supply line size, but after doing the following >calculations, we're not so sure and current thinking is leaning towards >putting a larger Bosche in-tank pump in to replace the 2 currently in use >(stock + external in-line). The T-Rex is good for 190 lpm or 49 gph or 300 pph (=560 HP) but not at higher pressures. Stay below 60 psig with this pump, get 50 pph inj or repl pump. > >If the following math is correct, it would appear that larger fuel lines >don't buy you much. Yet, on most serious forced-induction setups, you see >larger fuel lines in use. Comments? Some feel that with a light, taller geared combination that the near instantaneous demand would starve the pump, but we don't believe it, since the fuel supply system is a closed loop in solid hydraulic lock. Inertial forces come into play in Top Fuel. You don't need to worry; 3/8" lines should be adequate. Do not detonate your motor. Your calcs assume too much, but expect 2-5 psi drop in a 3/8" line. There are entrance and exit losses, velocity heads and assumptions re fuel viscosity vs temp and the L/D for each bend in the hose. Keep me posted on your results. I will consult with our patrons. TurboDave(aka DynoDave) From clsnyde at ibm.net Thu Jan 8 04:05:06 1998 From: clsnyde at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:05:06 -0500 Subject: Leaded/Unleaded Message-ID: Tony Pucillo wrote: > > Clare and Frederic: > > I've heard about the 3-angle valve job (well, had 'em doneon every one > in recent years) as an improvement for breathing and seating, but > nothing about lead/no lead, etc. > > Maybe they inserted hardened seats at the same time. About the time > lead started getting really scarce, the benefits of the 3AVJ were really > becoming known and would probably have been recommended for any valve > job done about then. [Machine shops aren't dumb. It's a few more > bucks, they make a bit more, you get a better product.] > > Tony Pucillo > > [I speak only for myself unless I say otherwise. One personality is > quite enough, thank you.] > > "Castigat ridendo mores" No arguement frm me on the 3 angle - it was grinding the valves at all that I was thinking of, if the valve job was to help the low-lead/no-lead problem. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Having some ISP trouble - changing things around NOTE!!!! To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From bruno at icd.teradyne.com Thu Jan 8 21:37:19 1998 From: bruno at icd.teradyne.com (Christopher Bruno) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:37:19 -0500 Subject: ME looking for EE education! Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3AF24FD399DC8FC72B7AEBE9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello again everybody, I know I'm commonly complaining about being an ignorant ME on this list of mostly EE's but I figurered you guys could help me out here. In my quest for self- educating myself in electrical engineering (and for fast reliable cars) I got into this fuel injection project. Now, I'm going to try to create Bruce's circuit for a cleaning/testing station that I plan to build in the near future. However, before I usually build anything, I like to try to understand why it works the way it does. So today I downloaded the evaluation version of MicroSim's Pspice v. 7.1 and started entering in the circuit proposed by Bruce a few months ago. Anyways, I was hoping that one of you EE's could help me out. I've attached the schematic for Pspice of that circuit (I would have put it on the WEB site but it still seems to be down) and I was wondering if anybody could tell me how to finish this circuit so that I can see the output at the injector as if I had it on a scope. (or can I not do this at all?) Anyways, anybody who knows Pspice and can help me - I would appreciate it. Thanks! -- Christopher Bruno Teradyne 321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 Boston, MA 02118 617.422.2040 Office 617.422.2304 Fax bruno at icd.teradyne.com --------------3AF24FD399DC8FC72B7AEBE9 Content-Type: application/vnd.ms-schedule; name="injector.sch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="injector.sch" KnZlcnNpb24gNy4xIDIyMTIzNjU0NDMKdSA5OApYPyAyClY/IDIKUT8gMwpSPyA1CkM/IDQK PyAyCkBsaWJyYXJpZXMKQGFuYWx5c2lzCi5EQyAwIDAgMCAwIDEgMQouT1BUIDEgMSAxIDEg MCAwIDAgMCAwIDAgMCAwIDAgMCAwCkRJR01OVFlNWCAxCi5QUk9CRSAwIDEgMCAxIDAgMgpA dGFyZ2V0cwpAYXR0cmlidXRlcwpAdHJhbnNsYXRvcnMKYSAwIHUgMTMgMCAwIDAgaGxuIDEw MCBQQ0JPQVJEUz1QQ0IKYSAwIHUgMTMgMCAwIDAgaGxuIDEwMCBDQURTVEFSPVBDQgphIDAg dSAxMyAwIDAgMCBobG4gMTAwIEVESUY9UENCCmEgMCB1IDEzIDAgMCAwIGhsbiAxMDAgT1JD QUQ9UENCCmEgMCB1IDEzIDAgMCAwIGhsbiAxMDAgUEFEUz1QQ0IKYSAwIHUgMTMgMCAwIDAg aGxuIDEwMCBQQ0FEPVBDQgphIDAgdSAxMyAwIDAgMCBobG4gMTAwIFBST1RFTD1QQ0IKYSAw IHUgMTMgMCAwIDAgaGxuIDEwMCBUQU5HTz1QQ0IKYSAwIHUgMTMgMCAwIDAgaGxuIDEwMCBT 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I know the bolt pattern is not the same as the V8 700r4, but what is it? BOP? or is it unique? thanks, and please reply privately. --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve at imes.com From terryk at foothill.net Thu Jan 8 22:41:09 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:41:09 -0500 Subject: ME looking for EE education! Message-ID: I know Spice, but I never played with Pspice. I assume it just the UC Berk code with a new frontend. But I can't read the Pspice files. What's the question? TK -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Bruno To: EFI Mailing List Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 2:32 PM Subject: ME looking for EE education! >Hello again everybody, > I know I'm commonly complaining about being an >ignorant ME on this list of mostly EE's but I figurered >you guys could help me out here. In my quest for self- >educating myself in electrical engineering (and for fast >reliable cars) I got into this fuel injection project. > Now, I'm going to try to create Bruce's circuit >for a cleaning/testing station that I plan to build in >the near future. However, before I usually build anything, >I like to try to understand why it works the way it does. > So today I downloaded the evaluation version of >MicroSim's Pspice v. 7.1 and started entering in the circuit >proposed by Bruce a few months ago. Anyways, I was hoping that >one of you EE's could help me out. I've attached the schematic >for Pspice of that circuit (I would have put it on the WEB >site but it still seems to be down) and I was wondering if >anybody could tell me how to finish this circuit so that I >can see the output at the injector as if I had it on a scope. > (or can I not do this at all?) Anyways, anybody >who knows Pspice and can help me - I would appreciate it. > >Thanks! >-- >Christopher Bruno >Teradyne >321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 >Boston, MA 02118 >617.422.2040 Office >617.422.2304 Fax >bruno at icd.teradyne.com From JBarnes262 at aol.com Thu Jan 8 23:03:55 1998 From: JBarnes262 at aol.com (JBarnes262) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:03:55 -0500 Subject: Fuel line pressure drop (fwd) Message-ID: << It would appear that larger fuel lines don't buy you much. Yet, on most serious forced-induction setups, you see larger fuel lines in use. Comments? >> I find that larger lines are important on the intake to pumps to avoid cavitation, once a pump has got the inflow it needs it can overcome quite a pressure drop in the outfeed line. This is my experiance pipeing up factories, cars may be diferent :-) Jonathan. From amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us Thu Jan 8 23:36:49 1998 From: amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us (amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:36:49 -0500 Subject: ME looking for EE education! Message-ID: Cristopher I would suggest first just substituing a resistor in place of the injector. That will not give you an accurate picture, but it will let you play with the circuit and the scope. I haven't seen any info on how many HENRIES the injector coil has, but I'm sure somebody out there will come up with that information. I think it would also be nice to know the frequency that the injector was measured at. There is some stray capacitance in the windings that probably won't affect you too much. Bob McKnight Phoenix AZ From bruno at icd.teradyne.com Fri Jan 9 00:02:49 1998 From: bruno at icd.teradyne.com (Christopher Bruno) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:02:49 -0500 Subject: ME looking for EE education! Message-ID: TBK wrote: > > I know Spice, but I never played with Pspice. I assume it just the UC Berk > code with a new frontend. > > But I can't read the Pspice files. > > What's the question? > > TK The complete circuit is there except for the injector (and the fact that I couldn't find a TIP120 NPN transistor so I used a QN3764 or something like that). However, because the injector is not there that side of the transistor is tied directly to +12V (which I assume would be bad anyways = direct short). I thought that there must be some kind of device I could place there - perhaps a 'Voltage Probe' or something. So then I would be able to click on 'Simulate' and watch what the output should be at that node graphically - just as if I hooked up a scope to the real circuit at that point. However, because I just started using this Pspice today and have no real EE background, I'm sort of at a loss as to how to finish this. So I guess my question is, how do I moitor the voltage in a circuit on the simulation side of this program and what kind of device do I put in instead of the injector? Thanks! -Chris From kv at us.ibm.com Fri Jan 9 00:03:00 1998 From: kv at us.ibm.com (Kevin Vannorsdel) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:03:00 -0500 Subject: ME looking for EE education! Message-ID: I'll take a look at it too if you want- send the actual SPICE deck though... not the schematic. It's easier to debug if you just look at the actual deck (since the ckt is simple). ________________________________________________ Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv at us.ibm.com owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu on 01/08/98 10:29:38 AM Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ internet To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ internet cc: Subject: Re: ME looking for EE education! I know Spice, but I never played with Pspice. I assume it just the UC Berk code with a new frontend. But I can't read the Pspice files. What's the question? TK -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Bruno To: EFI Mailing List Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 2:32 PM Subject: ME looking for EE education! >Hello again everybody, > I know I'm commonly complaining about being an >ignorant ME on this list of mostly EE's but I figurered >you guys could help me out here. In my quest for self- >educating myself in electrical engineering (and for fast >reliable cars) I got into this fuel injection project. > Now, I'm going to try to create Bruce's circuit >for a cleaning/testing station that I plan to build in >the near future. However, before I usually build anything, >I like to try to understand why it works the way it does. > So today I downloaded the evaluation version of >MicroSim's Pspice v. 7.1 and started entering in the circuit >proposed by Bruce a few months ago. Anyways, I was hoping that >one of you EE's could help me out. I've attached the schematic >for Pspice of that circuit (I would have put it on the WEB >site but it still seems to be down) and I was wondering if >anybody could tell me how to finish this circuit so that I >can see the output at the injector as if I had it on a scope. > (or can I not do this at all?) Anyways, anybody >who knows Pspice and can help me - I would appreciate it. > >Thanks! >-- >Christopher Bruno >Teradyne >321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 >Boston, MA 02118 >617.422.2040 Office >617.422.2304 Fax >bruno at icd.teradyne.com From jtravel at nmia.com Fri Jan 9 01:15:12 1998 From: jtravel at nmia.com (James Travelstead) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:15:12 -0500 Subject: 4L60-E & 4T60-E Transmission Message-ID: TBK wrote: > > Cray X-MP. > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Travelstead > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:18 PM > Subject: 4L60-E & 4T60-E Transmission > > >Hello, > > > >I have a little project going and was wondering if anyone has > >had any experience with the after-market transmission computers, > >that could offer advice on the right one for my project. > > > >Thanks Any and All > > I tried it, but it's a tough fit! From clendenc at execpc.com Fri Jan 9 01:53:32 1998 From: clendenc at execpc.com (Chad Clendening,) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:53:32 -0500 Subject: ME looking for EE education! Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------940ED0A8D55FC703866940CB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This has had the injector modeled as an inductor in series with a resistor. It can be simulated and it works. I placed a diode in parallel with the injector as PSPICE would output a few KV if nothing would clamp the inductive kick. I have PSPICE 8.x and I don't know if earlier versions will read it. 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Thanks to you guys I was able to figure out that I hadn't checked the 'transient' box so it was solving the problem over time. Now that I have the model it is neat to see what changes to this circuit will do to the output. Does anybody happen to know the inductance and capacitance (if any) of the injector coils? Thanks! -- Christopher Bruno Teradyne 321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 Boston, MA 02118 617.422.2040 Office 617.422.2304 Fax bruno at icd.teradyne.com From jeremy at dtc.net Fri Jan 9 20:12:39 1998 From: jeremy at dtc.net (Jeremy Fleming) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:12:39 -0500 Subject: raw gauge mechanisms Message-ID: On 01-Jan-98, DemonTSi wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-01 14:04:18 EST, you write: ><< I wouldn't be surprized if the "innards" cost more than a > complete gauge. Have you cosidered just taking a standard gauge > apart and using its innards. >> >From what I rememeber, someone mentioned that some place was selling speedo >innards for like under 20 bucks or something...so if that's the case, it would >be cheaper that way. I did think about just buying some reliable, low-bucks >gauges and just gutting them...but I looked at my auto meter boost gauge and >couldn't really tell how everything would fit together (I'm not about to take >this one apart either since it's my only one...). >Thanks for the input...! >Van >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I bought one of American Science and Surplus' NipponDenso speedometers. It was only 3.75, and because it's a three wire electronic gauge, you could change the face and build an voltage -> frequency interface to display whatever you want. They have a website- sciplus.com ? not sure. Good luck Jeremy From johnd at islandnet.com Fri Jan 9 20:14:16 1998 From: johnd at islandnet.com (John Dammeyer) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:14:16 -0500 Subject: ME looking for EE education! Message-ID: At 07:05 PM 08/01/1998 -0500, you wrote: >TBK wrote: >> >> I know Spice, but I never played with Pspice. I assume it just the UC Berk >> code with a new frontend. So I guess my >question is, how do I moitor the voltage in a circuit on the >simulation side of this program and what kind of device do I >put in instead of the injector? > Pick a relay, solonoid or an inductor. A 12V relay will be slightly more acurate because the inductance changes as the armature moves in/out/away/towards the coil. I haven't looked at the circuit but note that there must also be a diode hooked up with the band (cathode) towards the 12V+. This is because as the transistor is turned off, the magnetic field produced by current flowing through the injector collapses and that field moves through the core and the winding generating a opposite polarity pulse much higher in voltage than 12 volts. Don't grump about it. It's the physics that makes the ignition coil function. 8-) John Automation Artisans Inc. is a company founded to provide unique, advanced technology software and hardware solutions to the manufacturing industry so that our customers can produce customized products at mass production costs. Automation Artisans Inc., PO Box 20002 Sidney, BC CANADA V8L 5C9 Ph. 1-250-544-4950 Fax 1-250-544-4954 From blazer40 at cobweb.net Fri Jan 9 20:15:41 1998 From: blazer40 at cobweb.net (Matt Teagarden) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:15:41 -0500 Subject: S-10 2.8L 700r4 Message-ID: no, 2.8 bolt pattern is differnt. At 04:50 PM 1/8/98 +0000, you wrote: >Sorry to drag this up again, but I was wondering what the final word was >on the 700r4 in the 2.8L S-10 truck. I know the bolt pattern is not the >same as the V8 700r4, but what is it? BOP? or is it unique? thanks, >and please reply privately. > >--steve > > >-- >Steve Ravet >International Meta Systems >http://www.imes.com >steve at imes.com > > 406/700R4 Just Try TO Keep Up!! (-/---------------------\ | / | | | |\ | / |_________| |_______| \__|________ | ____ ____ | | / \ Chevrolet / \ | [|___/ OO \________________/ 00 \___|] 0000 0000 00 00 Matt Teagarden Blazer40 at cobweb.net Pittsburgh, PA Http://www.cobweb.net/~blazer40 1985 406V8 S-Blazer S-10 list Administrator - http://www.cobweb.net/~blazer40/s10 Syclone & Typhoon list Administrator - http://www.syty.org From synchris at ricochet.net Fri Jan 9 20:17:07 1998 From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:17:07 -0500 Subject: fuel evaporation & injectors Message-ID: Gary wrote: > With non sequential port fuel injection, fuel puddles behind the intake > valve. When the valve opens, residual exhaust blows it upstream causing > good vaporization. Other things to try are heating the intake air and > heating the fuel. I believe Honda's last turbocharged Formula 1 engine > heated the fuel to 70 degrees C. Gasoline has an end point around 300 > degrees. If you heat it to 150 or so, much of it will vaporize as it comes > out of the injectors. Heat it to 300 and you can be injecting vapor. Under > pressure in the fuel rail it would be liquid. As it flowed past the > injectors, it would flash into vapor. Apart from the danger, & probably fried injectors, it sounds like fun! ;) If I get my own cone shaped hat, can I try it??? **j/k!!** This reminds me, what's the deal with Mitsubishi's GDI (gasoline direct injection?) engines? Is this a diesel type setup? I can't get anything but Mitsu's hype about more power, less emissions, more mileage. I did talk to RC Engineering, thanks all for the suggestion. They did agree that fuel evaporation is often incomplete, but didn't seem to see this as a problem. (Obviously FI *does* work.) I plan to satisfy my tweak compulsion by putting my additional injectors either in the throttle body or just after the supercharger, and picking very fine spray units. Good enuff I guess. Plus I may put a temperature sensor on the fuel rail; perhaps part of the design is that the rail itself will get pretty warm. If so, that's kinda elegant. Chris C. From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Fri Jan 9 20:18:38 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:18:38 -0500 Subject: ME looking for EE education! Message-ID: >fact that I couldn't find a TIP120 NPN transistor so I used Believe it or not, Radio Shack used to stock them, and can still order them. I used one in a guitar amp last summer. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ --- From javer96 at snowcrest.net Fri Jan 9 20:20:05 1998 From: javer96 at snowcrest.net (Jennifer Rose) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:20:05 -0500 Subject: S-10 2.8L 700r4 Message-ID: At 04:50 PM 1/8/98 +0000, you wrote: >Sorry to drag this up again, but I was wondering what the final word was >on the 700r4 in the 2.8L S-10 truck. I know the bolt pattern is not the >same as the V8 700r4, but what is it? BOP? or is it unique? thanks, >and please reply privately. > >--steve > > >-- >Steve Ravet >International Meta Systems >http://www.imes.com >steve at imes.com > >Hi Steve JTR's book on swapping v-8 into a s-10 shows both trans side by side. The bellhousings are very different. If your going to install v-8 need v-8 trans Vance From jalbury at tpgi.com.au Fri Jan 9 20:39:03 1998 From: jalbury at tpgi.com.au (Justin Albury) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:39:03 -0500 Subject: GM 3.8 v6 - add supercharger. Message-ID: Craig Pugsley wrote: > > Hi there, > > Do any of the GM gurus out there know if the supercharger on the current > 3.8 v6 will bolt directly onto a non-supercharged version of the same > and if only the memcal needs to be changed? > > Considering this swap for my 1995 Holden commodore. I think despite it > being RWD it is otherwise identical to the FWD 3.8 v6 sold in the USA. > > Cheers, > Craig. hi craig mate from the info i got from the vs and vt trainning school the supercharger will bolt onto any ecotech engine but the pistons and comp. ratio are different - that is : super charged 8.5:1 165kw at 5200 307Nm at 2300 flex plate balabce shaft balancer rocker covers & gaskets cam shaft & cam gear head gaskets injectors intake gaskets fuel pump control module memcal/prom wireloom probley left some items out but????? i was working on a vs statsman yesterday 9/1/98 .....very nice .... tech 1 gives heaps of info on whats happening.....ha but nothing like vt with tech 2 ....its hot! Justin From steve at imes.com Fri Jan 9 20:48:35 1998 From: steve at imes.com (steve ravet) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:48:35 -0500 Subject: S-10 2.8L 700r4 Message-ID: Jennifer Rose wrote: > > At 04:50 PM 1/8/98 +0000, you wrote: > >Sorry to drag this up again, but I was wondering what the final word was > >on the 700r4 in the 2.8L S-10 truck. I know the bolt pattern is not the > >same as the V8 700r4, but what is it? BOP? or is it unique? thanks, > >and please reply privately. > > > >--steve > > > >Hi Steve > > JTR's book on swapping v-8 into a s-10 shows both trans side by side. The > bellhousings are very different. If your going to install v-8 need v-8 trans > > Vance Got the book, seen the picture, done the conversion. Guess I didn't ask the question clearly. I know they're different, my question is: Does the 2.8L 700R4 have the same bellhousing pattern as anything else? Or is it a loner in the world of GM transmissions? thanks --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve at imes.com From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Fri Jan 9 21:53:28 1998 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:53:28 -0500 Subject: fuel evaporation & injectors Message-ID: One very simple thing to make life very easy. If you can the piss dribble injector stream directly onto the intake valve, such as by locating the nozzle in the valve pocket, then you have magic. It seems like the back side of the valve averages about 600 F or more depending on load. This should totally vaporize and keep vaporized the fuel. BTW, on a properly cammed engine, there is very little or no exhaust "reversion". It's a Mass velocity not wanting to change direction thing. Plus properly tuned exhaust's create a vacuum at intake opening and can actually over-scavenge the engine, drawing fresh fuel/air mix into the exhaust. Honda, and Cosworth on turbo racing engines place injectors into INLET of supercharger to maximize mechanical carboration of the fuel and take maximum advantage of the latent heat of evaporation. (Yes - even with an aftercooler) See Bruce Hamiltons Exhaustive Gasoline FAQ for discussion of Honda's fuel and air heating scheme. If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Other Obsessions: Ferro-Equinary , 1972 "Killer Whale" Mustang Currently Interred in the Peoples Democratic Republic of California - Stalag Montclair Puck da guns - ban Politicians!!!!! Robert Harris -----Original Message----- From: Chris Conlon [SMTP:synchris at ricochet.net] Sent: Thursday, January 08, 1998 8:56 PM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: fuel evaporation & injectors Gary wrote: > With non sequential port fuel injection, fuel puddles behind the intake > valve. When the valve opens, residual exhaust blows it upstream causing > good vaporization. Other things to try are heating the intake air and > heating the fuel. I believe Honda's last turbocharged Formula 1 engine > heated the fuel to 70 degrees C. Gasoline has an end point around 300 > degrees. If you heat it to 150 or so, much of it will vaporize as it comes > out of the injectors. Heat it to 300 and you can be injecting vapor. Under > pressure in the fuel rail it would be liquid. As it flowed past the > injectors, it would flash into vapor. Apart from the danger, & probably fried injectors, it sounds like fun! ;) If I get my own cone shaped hat, can I try it??? **j/k!!** This reminds me, what's the deal with Mitsubishi's GDI (gasoline direct injection?) engines? Is this a diesel type setup? I can't get anything but Mitsu's hype about more power, less emissions, more mileage. I did talk to RC Engineering, thanks all for the suggestion. They did agree that fuel evaporation is often incomplete, but didn't seem to see this as a problem. (Obviously FI *does* work.) I plan to satisfy my tweak compulsion by putting my additional injectors either in the throttle body or just after the supercharger, and picking very fine spray units. Good enuff I guess. Plus I may put a temperature sensor on the fuel rail; perhaps part of the design is that the rail itself will get pretty warm. If so, that's kinda elegant. Chris C. From pfenske at direct.ca Fri Jan 9 22:19:49 1998 From: pfenske at direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:19:49 -0500 Subject: prom holders Message-ID: Hi Carl Been lookin for a while I once saw a PN in a delco electronics catalog but I lost it. Bruce has been trying to find a source but the only one he found wants us to buy a truckload.. Interested? :peter At 08:07 AM 1/9/98 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone know where to buy the black holders for the 2732a's held in >the 1227747 computers and others????????Thanks, >-Carl Summers > > From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 10 16:26:37 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:26:37 -0500 Subject: prom holders Message-ID: peter paul fenske wrote: > > Hi Carl > > Been lookin for a while > > I once saw a PN in a delco electronics catalog but > I lost it. > > Bruce has been trying to find a source but the only > one he found wants us to buy a truckload.. > > Interested? > :peter > > At 08:07 AM 1/9/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Does anyone know where to buy the black holders for the 2732a's held in > >the 1227747 computers and others????????Thanks, > >-Carl Summers > > > > I guess that it would depend of the price of ea. and what minimum qty's are. Let me know....thanks, -Carl Summers From synchris at ricochet.net Sat Jan 10 17:12:30 1998 From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:12:30 -0500 Subject: fuel injector Spice model Message-ID: Hi, Was someone asking about Spice/PSpice models for fuel injectors? While reading the data sheet for the part mentioned below, I saw that their suggested model is a 2mH inductor in series with a 1 ohm resistor. They note that you may need to adjust the values somewhat, but this does sound at least close. Adrian C. Black wrote: > Hey guys, National Semiconductor makes a chip for driving fuel injectors. > > http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM1949.html > > It offers peak and hold and works in conjunction with a power transistor... Hope this helps, Chris C. From dubovsky at vt.edu Sat Jan 10 17:33:53 1998 From: dubovsky at vt.edu (Stephen Dubovsky) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:33:53 -0500 Subject: Holley TBI in Jeep? Message-ID: Hey guys, I need a TBI unit for my '84 2.5L inline 4 Jeep cherokee. I saw holley carried a single barrel 300cfm unit for 2.0L-2.5L GM engines of the same era (82-86). Is this thing going to be able to fit and has anyone had experience w/ it? It LOOKS similar, a big hole in the middle w/ 2 mounting holes for the 2 posts on the manifold. The Jeep used to use a carter carb. I figure, how many different sizes can there be;) I tried to give holley a call, but they don't open until monday;( Tnx, SMD From SSchaaf at ERINet.com Sat Jan 10 17:40:10 1998 From: SSchaaf at ERINet.com (Scott Schaaf) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:40:10 -0500 Subject: H8Carbs,,, Where are you?? Message-ID: Hey Mike, What happened? I can't get through to you anymore. Please email me if you have changed ISPs. Scott... From nacelp at bright.net Sat Jan 10 17:49:14 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:49:14 -0500 Subject: prom holders Message-ID: Carl: Some points of information: The GN/GNX/TTA/ MAF sensors max out at 250 grams/sec, which is about 500 CFM. A stout GN 231 can run off the top of this calibration at 3000 rpm The only cure is having the calibration rich enough so as you go over top, that there is enough fuel for WOT, max rpm. Lots of 10sec cars have been run in this manner. As far as limiting Air Flow everone has their own opinion, Cottrell over at TPIS with a stout SBC, shows a couple HP difference from MAP to MAF, nothing ground shaking. IMHO lots of folks run to much overlap, and if they try to run a limited amount of timing the intake valve has opened enough that some of the charge may be burnt with the valve open. If you keep the advance to about the valve open point you're OK. Which is why I think so many people like the Ruggles 3371, which is a -6d overlap cam. Jus some stuff to consider. Bruce From HeinGer at aol.com Sat Jan 10 18:13:22 1998 From: HeinGer at aol.com (HeinGer) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:13:22 -0500 Subject: S-10 2.8L 700r4 Message-ID: At a swap meet last month, I saw a Northstar 4.6L bolted to a 700-R4, the one with the 2.8L bellhousing. So, apparently, the 2.8L 700-R4 is a FWD pattern. This makes sense, since the 2.8 was developed for the 1980 X-bodies (FWD), and not retooling the engine bellhousing saved money. From nacelp at bright.net Sat Jan 10 18:26:31 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:26:31 -0500 Subject: fuel evaporation & injectors Message-ID: Where is Bruce Hamilton's FAQ's. Bruce Cone hatted crusader From nacelp at bright.net Sat Jan 10 18:26:33 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:26:33 -0500 Subject: ME looking for EE education! Message-ID: Matter fact Radio Shack (some of them) stock the TIP 120 Cat No 276-2068 , was like a buck something (as of last week) Bruce When going out of town be sure to pack a cone shaped hat, hey who cares what strangers thing From nacelp at bright.net Sat Jan 10 18:26:34 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:26:34 -0500 Subject: fuel evaporation & injectors Message-ID: CAUTION Cone shaped hats are flamable, trust me on this issue (been flamed plenty, current record since last raging fire oh bout 28 hrs). Bruce Beginning to think Muldner+Scully are too friendly with Reno, no results on missing attachments. From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Sat Jan 10 18:41:22 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:41:22 -0500 Subject: fuel evaporation & injectors Message-ID: >Honda, and Cosworth on turbo racing engines place injectors into INLET of >supercharger to maximize mechanical carboration of the fuel and take maximum >advantage of the latent heat of evaporation. (Yes - even with an aftercooler) Yes, this is very common. In fact, I used to do this myself on a carb'd engine, until I learned the hardway how destructive backfires are to supercharger blades covered with fuel mist. With Fuel Injection that's not a problem, but its something to consider. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ --- From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Sat Jan 10 18:41:23 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:41:23 -0500 Subject: fuel evaporation & injectors Message-ID: >This reminds me, what's the deal with Mitsubishi's GDI (gasoline direct >injection?) engines? Is this a diesel type setup? I can't get anything but >Mitsu's hype about more power, less emissions, more mileage. Basically, they eliminate the "swirl" problems around the valve when the fuel/air mixes, and the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder, supposively to atomize it much better. Maybe, maybe not. I can't really tell, but what they are doing is running the engines increadibly lean during non-load periods (coasting, downhill, idle, etc) on alternating cylinders, so there is enough "ooomth" to rotate the crank, but doesn't really blow a lot of fuel. This is how they achieve their high-mileage claim, at least according to the documentation. More than likely, it shall be the wave of the future. After all, why bother re-inventing an entire engine when you can just manage it differently. Costs less :) Excuse the sarcasm. I'm always fascinated by new ideas. There's a guy somewhere (saw it in HotRod) who is making a high-torque low-HP rotary engine, a 3 cycle engine, I'll look for the article and post the issue date, and there is a website in Tiawon or Korea with an interesting high-torque 1 cyl engine, that can be duplicated and run in parallel, giving a whopping 1/2" stroke. All attempts at achieving the same thing. Great mileage, okay power, and lots of government grant money. Excuse the sarcasm again :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ --- From MRASHAN at aol.com Sat Jan 10 18:41:48 1998 From: MRASHAN at aol.com (MRASHAN) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:41:48 -0500 Subject: S-10 2.8L 700r4 Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-09 16:07:58 EST, you write: << Got the book, seen the picture, done the conversion. Guess I didn't ask the question clearly. I know they're different, my question is: Does the 2.8L 700R4 have the same bellhousing pattern as anything else? Or is it a loner in the world of GM transmissions? thanks --steve >> Hey steve,,,,,,I have the chevy 2.8 in my jeep and my trans is a Chrysler torqueflight 999. Same bellhousing as yours. Good luck, Art. From nacelp at bright.net Sat Jan 10 18:44:31 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:44:31 -0500 Subject: prom holders Message-ID: Carl Summers please e-mail me, Bruce nacelp at bright.net From shannen at mcn.net Sat Jan 10 19:00:21 1998 From: shannen at mcn.net (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:00:21 -0500 Subject: S-10 2.8L 700r4 Message-ID: steve ravet wrote: > Jennifer Rose wrote: > Got the book, seen the picture, done the conversion. Guess I didn't ask > the question clearly. I know they're different, my question is: Does > the 2.8L 700R4 have the same bellhousing pattern as anything else? Or > is it a loner in the world of GM transmissions? > > thanks > > --steve > > -- > Steve Ravet > International Meta Systems > http://www.imes.com > steve at imes.com You've got a horse of a different color there. Trans bolts to 2.5l, 2.8l, and special replacement 3.4l RWD. Shannen From ludis at netcom.com Sat Jan 10 19:06:32 1998 From: ludis at netcom.com (Ludis Langens) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:06:32 -0500 Subject: ECU numbers on GM Message-ID: Scott Schaaf wrote: >GOOD LUCK!!! It APPEARS to be 68HC11,,, BUTTT, the pinouts DO NOT >mach that of any HC11. Nor do any of the other 54 pin chips. I have >been trying DESPARATLY to find out about these ECMs, and to no avail. >If you get lucky, PLEASE let me know. Don't expect to find a "real" HC11 in the ECM. I've taken a very quick look at a P4 class ECM. It has three large chips which appear to be 1) a custom CPU-core-only 68HC11, 2) a custom I/O and RAM chip, and 3) a custom timer chip similar to a 68332's TPU. There is also a medium size chip that is the custom limp-home mode controller. One of the smaller chips is likely a SPI interfaced A to D converter. And it wouldn't surprise me if there is also a SPI PIO chip. If you are looking at an older C3 class ECM, there will be a custom CPU-core- only 6801, one or two custom ROM/RAM/PIO combo chips, a custom timer chip, a custom A to D chip, the custom limp-home chip, and a custom [are you getting the picture yet?] oscillator & clock generator chip. Plus, a custom IAC driver chip, a custom ignition module interface chip, a custom power supply chip, and a semi-custom O2 sensor amplifier. It is safe to say that you won't find info on any of these custom chips in a Motorola data book. unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; Ludis Langens return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + ludis at netcom.com (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} From terryk at foothill.net Sat Jan 10 19:07:00 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:07:00 -0500 Subject: S-10 2.8L 700r4 Message-ID: They are the same bellhousing pattern, but the starter mounts are different between the FWD and and RWD version of the 2.8L/3.1L blocks From SSchaaf at ERINet.com Sat Jan 10 20:36:11 1998 From: SSchaaf at ERINet.com (Scott Schaaf) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:36:11 -0500 Subject: ECU numbers on GM Message-ID: Ludis Langens wrote: > > Scott Schaaf wrote: > >GOOD LUCK!!! It APPEARS to be 68HC11,,, BUTTT, the pinouts DO NOT > >mach that of any HC11. Nor do any of the other 54 pin chips. I have > >been trying DESPARATLY to find out about these ECMs, and to no avail. > >If you get lucky, PLEASE let me know. > > Don't expect to find a "real" HC11 in the ECM. I've taken a very quick look > at a P4 class ECM. It has three large chips which appear to be 1) a custom > CPU-core-only 68HC11, 2) a custom I/O and RAM chip, and 3) a custom timer > chip similar to a 68332's TPU. There is also a medium size chip that is the > custom limp-home mode controller. One of the smaller chips is likely a SPI > interfaced A to D converter. And it wouldn't surprise me if there is also a > SPI PIO chip. > > If you are looking at an older C3 class ECM, there will be a custom CPU-core- > only 6801, one or two custom ROM/RAM/PIO combo chips, a custom timer chip, a > custom A to D chip, the custom limp-home chip, and a custom [are you getting > the picture yet?] oscillator & clock generator chip. Plus, a custom IAC driver > chip, a custom ignition module interface chip, a custom power supply chip, and > a semi-custom O2 sensor amplifier. > > It is safe to say that you won't find info on any of these custom chips in a > Motorola data book. > > unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; > Ludis Langens return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + > ludis at netcom.com (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} They just GOTTA be different, Don't they!!! I would just like to know how the data is stored in the PROMs, I would like to build my own EFI on an old AMC V8. SOMEONE on this net has broken the Typhoon/Syclone ecm prom, and I will be looking for this ECM in the junk yards when it turns warm again. Scott... From nacelp at bright.net Sat Jan 10 20:55:01 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:55:01 -0500 Subject: Holley TBI in Jeep? Message-ID: Holley TBI in a Jeep Saw an ad for Mopar selling a retrofit of their own for doing this.. Might check that out Bruce From nacelp at bright.net Sat Jan 10 20:58:07 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:58:07 -0500 Subject: H8Carbs,,, Where are you?? Message-ID: H8Carbs is now ECMNUT I lost his address but that's his new "name" Bruce From nacelp at bright.net Sat Jan 10 21:31:00 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:31:00 -0500 Subject: ECU numbers on GM Message-ID: ref: scott schaaf If the guesstion is, where can you get a programmer for the 749 ECM Syclone computer it is at there web sit SYTY.Org Bruce Federal Guide Line Issue for cone shaped hats is on hold, they just realized most of the bureacrats in DC should be wearing them. From clsnyde at ibm.net Sat Jan 10 23:33:33 1998 From: clsnyde at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:33:33 -0500 Subject: Holley TBI in Jeep? Message-ID: Stephen Dubovsky wrote: > > Hey guys, I need a TBI unit for my '84 2.5L inline 4 Jeep cherokee. I > saw holley carried a single barrel 300cfm unit for 2.0L-2.5L GM engines of > the same era (82-86). Is this thing going to be able to fit and has anyone > had experience w/ it? It LOOKS similar, a big hole in the middle w/ 2 > mounting holes for the 2 posts on the manifold. The Jeep used to use a > carter carb. I figure, how many different sizes can there be;) I tried to > give holley a call, but they don't open until monday;( > > Tnx, > SMD What's wrong with a GM unit from, say a 2.5 S10 or Celebrity? Should be a simple bolt-on, as it is the same engine. Use the GM ECU, sensors, harness, etc - should be a dime a dozen at the auto-wreckers -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 11 01:49:52 1998 From: dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net (Ron Tyler) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:49:52 -0500 Subject: H8Carbs,,, Where are you?? Message-ID: His new address is... ECMnut at aol.com rt Scott Schaaf wrote: > > Hey Mike, What happened? I can't get through to you anymore. Please > email me if you have changed ISPs. > Scott... From jonzmatc at execpc.com Sun Jan 11 02:11:42 1998 From: jonzmatc at execpc.com (john ziino) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:11:42 -0500 Subject: Aftermarket EFI systems? Message-ID: Jesse R. Ortiz wrote: > > Has anyone here ever had any experience with a TEC II, Haltech, Simple > Digital Systems, Accel, or any other Aftermarket programmable engine > management systems? I'm wanting to get more info on the difficulty of > programming, and the results that they give, such how 'streetable' they > really are. Could they be used on a daily driven car without "headaches" > once they are programmed? How difficult was it to attach to the wiring on > the car such, such as for fuel pump, ignition switch, etc? > Thanks.. > Jesse. I have had a Haltech and Tec11 on a Pantera. The Haltech is very easy and can be programed in a few hours. The Tec is harder to program, but once you get it right, it is very streetable plus you also have ignition timing along with fuel control. I would go with the Tec unit if I had a choice. I have a heavy modified engine, with a large cam and the car is mostly street driven and idles at 950rpm with very good low end and great top end. The car was just chassis dynoed and had 451 rear horsepower with the potentional for another 50rwhp but the clutch started to slip. From yorker at deltanet.com Sun Jan 11 06:19:09 1998 From: yorker at deltanet.com (Robert Yorke) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:19:09 -0500 Subject: Aftermarket EFI systems? Message-ID: John: Can you provide any user experience with the Haltech? What were it's shortcomings, if any? I assume you took the Haltech off and then used the TEC II. TIA >> Jesse. > >I have had a Haltech and Tec11 on a Pantera. The Haltech is very easy >and can be programed in a few hours. The Tec is harder to program, but >once you get it right, it is very streetable plus you also have ignition >timing along with fuel control. I would go with the Tec unit if I had a >choice. I have a heavy modified engine, with a large cam and the car is >mostly street driven and idles at 950rpm with very good low end and >great top end. The car was just chassis dynoed and had >451 rear horsepower with the potentional for another 50rwhp but the >clutch started to slip. > From soh at smartt.com Sun Jan 11 07:22:46 1998 From: soh at smartt.com (Jerome Soh) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:22:46 -0500 Subject: Aftermarket EFI systems? Message-ID: > >and can be programed in a few hours. The Tec is harder to program, but > >once you get it right, it is very streetable plus you also have ignition > >timing along with fuel control. I would go with the Tec unit if I had a > >choice. I have a heavy modified engine, with a large cam and the car is > >mostly street driven and idles at 950rpm with very good low end and > >great top end. The car was just chassis dynoed and had > >451 rear horsepower with the potentional for another 50rwhp but the > >clutch started to slip. Which Haltech are you comparing the TEC II to? The E6A is supposedly a big improvement over the earlier systems so I'd be interested to hear what people have to say about it. Is the E8 out yet? Jerome From nacelp at bright.net Sun Jan 11 15:22:21 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:22:21 -0500 Subject: GM Bin files Message-ID: If you (anyone) have any bin files from 87-92 camaro, corvett, firebird I appreciate a copy (please include broadcast code, and 305/350 auto/man) I'm also hunting for 87-92 pick-up/astrovan/s-10 (those with 1227747 ecms)(again eng size, tranny type broadcast code) Any Syclone, Typhoon Any 87-88 GN TType, or 89TTA Please e-mail with any of the above you might have, Thanks Again Bruce nacelp at bright.net Cold weather precaution--wear large cone shaped hat, and under that, wear a small cone shaped hat From POSTMASTER at mcimail.com Sun Jan 11 15:41:35 1998 From: POSTMASTER at mcimail.com (POSTMASTER at mcimail.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:41:35 -0500 Subject: RECPT: GM Bin files Message-ID: Your Instant RECEIPT message of Sun Jan 11, 1998 12:46 pm EST was delivered on Sun Jan 11, 1998 12:40 pm EST. From wenning.motorsport at t-online.de Sun Jan 11 16:43:42 1998 From: wenning.motorsport at t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:43:42 -0500 Subject: Opel/Vauxhall's unconnected socket in the engine bay Message-ID: Sorry for the late answer, but I was really busy. martin at mgass.demon.co.uk schrieb: > Out of interest how do you go about changing the maps ? I presume > you use a laptop PC connected via the ALDL with suitable software. > Do you have any problem with prom checksums ? > Roughly how much bhp gain could you get at top-end? Yes, we?re emulating the software via laptop PC but I?m not allowed to give any details about this. We usually get a performance increase around 6-8 hp. > Also what are your views on the current 2.0 16V tuning wise, I believe that > they are a lot down (power-wise) on the earlier (approx. 1990) incarnation > in the Astra GSI/GTE. I understand that the cams are set roughly > the same but that valve sizes have been reduced and angles altered. > I also understand that the current engine was a disappointment for > Touring car racing and that the earlier engine has been > re-homologated by running off a small batch of Vectras equiped with it.. The performance secret of this engine is the inlet! Fit a single butterfly arrangement with some nice cams and you?ll have around 180 bhp. > I am not sure I understand this... are we saying that at full > throttle the mixture is normally rich to preserve the cat ? and that > the tune is to allow a period of leaner running followed then by a > rich period to keep the cat happy ? > I also observe that if one were to remove the cat then it would not > be necessary to have a rich period, because there is nothing > downstream to get damaged, also I presume you could go to the optimum > lean setting ? A rich mixture can?t be burned completely so the unburned fuel parts can cool the cat to prevent overheating. Without a cat you don?t need a fuel mixture period. I suggest 12,6:1 at full throttle for non turbos and 12:1 for turbo cars. Regards Alex. From jonzmatc at execpc.com Sun Jan 11 17:11:38 1998 From: jonzmatc at execpc.com (john ziino) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:11:38 -0500 Subject: Aftermarket EFI systems? Message-ID: Robert Yorke wrote: > > John: > > Can you provide any user experience with the Haltech? What were it's > shortcomings, if any? I assume you took the Haltech off and then used the > TEC II. > > TIA > > >> Jesse. > > > >I have had a Haltech and Tec11 on a Pantera. The Haltech is very easy > >and can be programed in a few hours. The Tec is harder to program, but > >once you get it right, it is very streetable plus you also have ignition > >timing along with fuel control. I would go with the Tec unit if I had a > >choice. I have a heavy modified engine, with a large cam and the car is > >mostly street driven and idles at 950rpm with very good low end and > >great top end. The car was just chassis dynoed and had > >451 rear horsepower with the potentional for another 50rwhp but the > >clutch started to slip. > > I had an F7 Haltec that was throttle position sensor only. I went to the Tec 11 because it had iginition combined with injection all in one program and had more parameters such as cold start, deceleration adjustments, etc. I think Haltech would work well, because they now have ingnition and fuel injection in there E9 computer. From bcoop at totacc.com Sun Jan 11 22:13:12 1998 From: bcoop at totacc.com (Brad Cooper) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:13:12 -0500 Subject: GM Bin files Message-ID: If anybody has thse files please send a copy to me also. Thank you. bruce plecan wrote: > If you (anyone) have any bin files from 87-92 camaro, corvett, firebird > I appreciate a copy (please include broadcast code, and > 305/350 auto/man) > I'm also hunting for 87-92 pick-up/astrovan/s-10 (those with > 1227747 ecms)(again eng size, tranny type broadcast code) > Any Syclone, Typhoon > Any 87-88 GN TType, or 89TTA > Please e-mail with any of the above you might have, > > Thanks Again Bruce nacelp at bright.net > > Cold weather precaution--wear large cone shaped > hat, and under that, wear a small cone shaped hat -- Brad "Coop" Cooper 1989 Camaro RS 305 TBI, 160 degree thermostat, Edelbrock T.E.S., Turbo City TBI, Flowmaster muffler, High Flow cat, March Pulley's, Mallory HighFire IV, B&M Megashifter, Replica 427 Corvette Hood, 265/50 15's on Cragar DragStars. From MBaxter at compuserve.com Mon Jan 12 05:58:40 1998 From: MBaxter at compuserve.com (Michael Baxter) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:58:40 -0500 Subject: Abrasive flow finishing Message-ID: Sorry for the late reply. It bounced the 1st time I posted it and dashed back to the line. Chris Conlon writes: >> Perhaps there's a difference between drag on an object in free space (planes, golf balls) and mass flow through a tube. << >> Supposedly when you have laminar flow over a surface the flow speed right at the surface is near 0, increasing (as distance squared) to whatever max value "far" from the surface. I *think* that this nice, smooth flow over the surface also provides maximum drag << >> The bumps cause turbulent flow, which results in little pockets of air where the "sandpaper" isn't touching you... and thus less drag. << The least skin friction happens when the flow is laminar. The most when it is turbulent. The dimples on a golf ball delay boundary layer separation further back along the surface and you have to take into account the golf ball is rotating making the dimples dynamically random. Boundary layer separation is the point of transition between laminar flow and turbulent flow. The more laminar flow over an airfoil, the less the drag. >> Someone with a better understanding of aerodynamics please feel free to correct and clarify this! << At least this is what I've been taught. The FAA recently changed some percentages in the "official" airfoil lift theory after god only knows how many years of pounding the old parameters into aviator's brains. Aerodynamics is still black magic, IMO. All I really know is if I rotate to 7 degrees nose-up, it flies and goes where I point it within reason :-) bmccord at whittman-hart.com writes: >> Every thing I studied was for water. So it my be a little different for air. << Air is a fluid and obeys all the laws of fluid dynamics. Terry Martin writes: >> Not less "sticky", which implies adhesion, but a micro laminar flow on the dimple or bump, which causes less turbulence in the main flow. In other words the reduction of turbulence by introducing a bump, exceeds the drag of the bump itself. << I agree. I believe the random dimples must be reducing the size/number of eddies. It's a great idea and I hope it works for the automotive world both under the hood and on the sheet metal. I'm not sure we'll be seeing random dimples showing up on aircraft wings like golf balls. We rely on turbulent air flow (boundry layer separation occurs between 25-33% back depending on the shape of the airfoil) for control effectiveness. Because of this, we won't see mechanics grinning from ear to ear with a ball peen hammer in one hand :-). When the controls surfaces don't have enough area during initial flight testing, the engineers add little metal tabs, called vortex generators, at random angles. Technically correcting a design deficiency. If random dimples show-up on aircraft wings, it'll be on new designs after much testing in a wind tunnel. -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter at Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 11-Jan-1998 From MBaxter at compuserve.com Mon Jan 12 05:58:40 1998 From: MBaxter at compuserve.com (Michael Baxter) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:58:40 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: "Gary Derian" writes: >> I believe Honda's last turbocharged Formula 1 engine heated the fuel to 70 degrees C. Gasoline has an end point around 300 degrees. If you heat it to 150 or so, much of it will vaporize as it comes out of the injectors. Heat it to 300 and you can be injecting vapor. Under pressure in the fuel rail it would be liquid. As it flowed past the injectors, it would flash into vapor. << Hmmm..I wouldn't think you would want the fuel to vaporize if it can be helped? Vapor takes up many, many more times more volume than fuel in micro-droplet form and will reduce the VE. There's a local injector guru here doing extensive research on injector spray patterns and droplet sizes on a dyno and in a lab using lasers to measure the the droplet size. When ever I drop-in for a visit, it's all I hear. "Droplet size...droplet size...droplet size." -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter at Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 11-Jan-1998 From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Mon Jan 12 12:54:16 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:54:16 -0500 Subject: GM Bin files Message-ID: Brad Cooper wrote: > > If anybody has thse files please send a copy to me also. Thank you. > > bruce plecan wrote: > > > If you (anyone) have any bin files from 87-92 camaro, corvett, firebird > > I appreciate a copy (please include broadcast code, and > > 305/350 auto/man) I was going to suggest if anyone had these files to upload them to the ftp site. Then I thought to include the ftp site address in my request. My attempt to find it failed. The EFI332 ftp site is there, but all the files I remember and the ones I put there are gone. Was there a diy-efi site? Am I going daffy? Is the site coming back if it's gone? Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Mon Jan 12 13:20:16 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:20:16 -0500 Subject: Abrasive flow finishing Message-ID: Michael Baxter wrote: > Aerodynamics is still black magic, IMO. > All I really know If you would call the F-18E/F program at McDonald-Douglas, oh excuse me, that's Boeing St Louis, you'd find lot's of agreement. Having one wing stop flying at .8 mach must be lots of fun! Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Mon Jan 12 14:32:11 1998 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:32:11 -0500 Subject: Bosch Message-ID: My Bosch book lists an aftermarket company with good stuff for Bosch - Micro Dynamics. Are they still around and how do I get a hold of them ??? Thanks If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Other Obsessions: Ferro-Equinary , 1972 "Killer Whale" Mustang Currently Interred in the Peoples Democratic Republic of California - Stalag Montclair Puck da guns - ban Politicians!!!!! Robert Harris From sganz at wgn.net Mon Jan 12 15:01:02 1998 From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:01:02 -0500 Subject: fuel injector Spice model Message-ID: I have a couple of the Injector driver boards that use the LM1949, so drop me a line and I'll save you a bunch of time. Sandy At 02:07 PM 1/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > >Was someone asking about Spice/PSpice models for fuel injectors? >While reading the data sheet for the part mentioned below, I saw >that their suggested model is a 2mH inductor in series with a 1 ohm >resistor. They note that you may need to adjust the values somewhat, >but this does sound at least close. > > >Adrian C. Black wrote: > >> Hey guys, National Semiconductor makes a chip for driving fuel injectors. >> >> http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM1949.html >> >> It offers peak and hold and works in conjunction with a power transistor... > > > Hope this helps, > Chris C. > > From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Mon Jan 12 15:08:55 1998 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:08:55 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: If it ain't vapour it ain't agonna burn. Period. See laws of physics - combustion section. Ideally, for maximum power, fuel "droplets" will enter the cylinder under their boiling temp, having absorbed the maximum heat from the mixture possible (thereby making it as dense as possible), and will then completely vaporize after the intake valve closes and prior to ignition. The rising cylinder temperature aids this process - but the rising pressure raises the boiling point and hinders it. Now, if you are not at full power, Wide open throttle - V E Schmee Eeee. For maximum power, fuel/air mix is like teenage sex - quantity matters more than quality. At less than WOT, the loss in VE incurred by external partial vaporization (boiling) of fuel is more than made up for by the increase in the quality of the mixture. Two basic ways to increase the quality of the mixture. Add heat to the mixture such as in exhaust crossovers or pre-heating the fuel, and add turbulence (carboration) such as swirl ports etc. The trick is to greatly improve the part throttle without hosing the full throttle ( this has been left to the class as an exercise for the last 100 years ). BTW the reason Honda chose 70 degrees C is not particularly magic. It's because that's the temp that results from pre-heating the fuel with the engine coolant. This, coupled with raising the intake air temp gave them bettor mileage and response. Vee Eee Scmee Eeee - with you have a turbo to shove the air in, the small difference in VE this results in was swamped by the turbo, and the mileage increase gave them a competitive advantage (pit stops yu know). If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Other Obsessions: Ferro-Equinary , 1972 "Killer Whale" Mustang Currently Interred in the Peoples Democratic Republic of California - Stalag Montclair Puck da guns - ban Politicians!!!!! Robert Harris -----Original Message----- From: Michael Baxter [SMTP:MBaxter at compuserve.com] Sent: Sunday, January 11, 1998 11:57 PM To: Blind.Copy.Receiver at compuserve.com Subject: Re: injector resistance "Gary Derian" writes: >> I believe Honda's last turbocharged Formula 1 engine heated the fuel to 70 degrees C. Gasoline has an end point around 300 degrees. If you heat it to 150 or so, much of it will vaporize as it comes out of the injectors. Heat it to 300 and you can be injecting vapor. Under pressure in the fuel rail it would be liquid. As it flowed past the injectors, it would flash into vapor. << Hmmm..I wouldn't think you would want the fuel to vaporize if it can be helped? Vapor takes up many, many more times more volume than fuel in micro-droplet form and will reduce the VE. There's a local injector guru here doing extensive research on injector spray patterns and droplet sizes on a dyno and in a lab using lasers to measure the the droplet size. When ever I drop-in for a visit, it's all I hear. "Droplet size...droplet size...droplet size." -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter at Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 11-Jan-1998 From lndshrk at xmission.com Mon Jan 12 15:17:27 1998 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:17:27 -0500 Subject: Bosch Message-ID: At 08:24 AM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >My Bosch book lists an aftermarket company with good stuff for Bosch - Micro >Dynamics. Are they still around and how do I get a hold of them ??? Micro dynamics made rising rate fuel regulators.. I don't think they are still available in the U.S. What type of system are you working on?? L-Jet?? K-Jet?? Motronic?? Jim C. From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Mon Jan 12 15:58:15 1998 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:58:15 -0500 Subject: Bosch Message-ID: Really Looking for "rising rate fuel pressure regulator" or similar such. Pressure range can go up to 100+ psi if possible. Adjusting the fuel pressure as a gross first order approximation to load (damped manifold pressure) - particularly on a turbo (planned) extends the span of control without getting into bigger injectors dog shit low end problem. In the process of rolling my own for an old work pick up truck (Dodge 360) that doesn't get into a lot of unobtainiam and expensiam high faluting stuff. I intend to thoroughly rape plunder and pillage my local used parts emporium. Equal opportunity Affirmative Action - Stealing liberally from all. Cheap is a desirable quality. Available is mandatory. On similar note - any one have lots of experience and knowledge that they would like to point me at about Basic Stamp Computers. Got into them just enough to realize that they didn't have what it took for my last "project", but it might be purrfectimo for the Bundymobee all. If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Other Obsessions: Ferro-Equinary , 1972 "Killer Whale" Mustang Currently Interred in the Peoples Democratic Republic of California - Stalag Montclair Puck da guns - ban Politicians!!!!! Robert Harris -----Original Message----- From: Land Shark [SMTP:lndshrk at xmission.com] Sent: Monday, January 12, 1998 9:16 AM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Subject: Re: Bosch At 08:24 AM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >My Bosch book lists an aftermarket company with good stuff for Bosch - Micro >Dynamics. Are they still around and how do I get a hold of them ??? Micro dynamics made rising rate fuel regulators.. I don't think they are still available in the U.S. What type of system are you working on?? L-Jet?? K-Jet?? Motronic?? Jim C. From nacelp at bright.net Mon Jan 12 16:42:27 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:42:27 -0500 Subject: GM Bin files Message-ID: ref: Joe the DIY_EFI is sometimes around, I think I've been there 4 times since the 23 of Dec.. Same for the 332 stuff. In case any of the powers to be are reading this, even when it's been up lately, some of the stuff I've downloaded has been scrambled. Bruce Driving tip, you can keep both hands on the steering wheel during high lateral g acclerations if your cone shaped hat has a chin strap. From nacelp at bright.net Mon Jan 12 16:45:26 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:45:26 -0500 Subject: Wanted GM Bin files Message-ID: If you have been waiting to avoid the rush now is the time to send them, 87-92 F-Body 87-92 Truck (747 ECM), Syclone Buick GN 89 TTA files. Could really use a (couple) of the 90-20 F-Body ones. Bruce From bcoop at totacc.com Mon Jan 12 16:54:06 1998 From: bcoop at totacc.com (Brad Cooper) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:54:06 -0500 Subject: BIN files Message-ID: What kind of program do I need to read BIN files? -- Brad "Coop" Cooper 1989 Camaro RS 305 TBI, 160 degree thermostat, Edelbrock T.E.S., Turbo City TBI, Flowmaster muffler, High Flow cat, March Pulley's, Mallory HighFire IV, B&M Megashifter, Replica 427 Corvette Hood, 265/50 15's on Cragar DragStars. From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon Jan 12 16:59:57 1998 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:59:57 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: -> There's a local injector guru here doing extensive research on -> injector spray patterns and droplet sizes on a dyno and in a lab -> using lasers to measure the the droplet size. When ever I drop-in for -> a visit, it's all I hear. "Droplet size...droplet size...droplet -> size." He's on the right track. Droplet size counts - that's one reason why Dell'Ortos always had better low and mid range power than Webers. But there's not that much you can do with a carb, and even less you can do with a typical solenoid type injector. Which is why I think Bosch had the right idea with the old CIS continuous system, which also let them snake a small diameter nozzle into the port and point it anywhere they wanted, rather than having to compromise things because of the bulk of the injector sitting atop the runner. From gderian at cybergate.net Mon Jan 12 17:32:41 1998 From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:32:41 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: Well said! Mr. Harris. Gary Derian >If it ain't vapour it ain't agonna burn. Period. See laws of physics - >combustion section. > >Ideally, for maximum power, fuel "droplets" will enter the cylinder under their >boiling temp, having absorbed the maximum heat from the mixture possible >(thereby making it as dense as possible), and will then completely vaporize >after the intake valve closes and prior to ignition. The rising cylinder >temperature aids this process - but the rising pressure raises the boiling >point and hinders it. > >Now, if you are not at full power, Wide open throttle - V E Schmee Eeee. For >maximum power, fuel/air mix is like teenage sex - quantity matters more than >quality. At less than WOT, the loss in VE incurred by external partial >vaporization (boiling) of fuel is more than made up for by the increase in the >quality of the mixture. Two basic ways to increase the quality of the mixture. > Add heat to the mixture such as in exhaust crossovers or pre-heating the fuel, >and add turbulence (carboration) such as swirl ports etc. The trick is to >greatly improve the part throttle without hosing the full throttle ( this has >been left to the class as an exercise for the last 100 years ). > >BTW the reason Honda chose 70 degrees C is not particularly magic. It's >because that's the temp that results from pre-heating the fuel with the engine >coolant. This, coupled with raising the intake air temp gave them bettor >mileage and response. Vee Eee Scmee Eeee - with you have a turbo to shove the >air in, the small difference in VE this results in was swamped by the turbo, >and the mileage increase gave them a competitive advantage (pit stops yu know). > >If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. >Other Obsessions: Ferro-Equinary , 1972 "Killer Whale" Mustang >Currently Interred in the Peoples Democratic Republic of California - Stalag >Montclair >Puck da guns - ban Politicians!!!!! >Robert Harris > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Michael Baxter [SMTP:MBaxter at compuserve.com] >Sent: Sunday, January 11, 1998 11:57 PM >To: Blind.Copy.Receiver at compuserve.com >Subject: Re: injector resistance > >"Gary Derian" writes: > >>> I believe Honda's last turbocharged Formula 1 engine heated the fuel to >70 degrees C. >Gasoline has an end point around 300 degrees. If you heat it to 150 or >so, much of it will >vaporize as it comes out of the injectors. Heat it to 300 and you can >be injecting vapor. >Under pressure in the fuel rail it would be liquid. As it flowed past >the injectors, it >would flash into vapor. ><< > >Hmmm..I wouldn't think you would want the fuel to vaporize if it can >be helped? Vapor takes up many, many more times more volume than fuel >in micro-droplet form and will reduce the VE. > >There's a local injector guru here doing extensive research on injector >spray patterns and droplet sizes on a dyno and in a lab using lasers to >measure the the droplet size. When ever I drop-in for a visit, it's all I >hear. "Droplet size...droplet size...droplet size." > > > -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter at Compuserve.com > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter > From Reno, NV USA on 11-Jan-1998 From carterh at crl.com Mon Jan 12 18:18:27 1998 From: carterh at crl.com (Carter Hendricks) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:18:27 -0500 Subject: subaru [subaru?] ecu. Message-ID: While looking at some vacuum tube schematics I stumbled across a site devoted to a subaru ecu. Japanese, but a lot of information / graphs. Let's see if I get this right: www.keisei.tsukuba.ac.jp/~kashima/gc8.html [all lower case]. 'don't know if this has been mentioned before. --Carter From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Mon Jan 12 18:42:45 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:42:45 -0500 Subject: BIN files Message-ID: >What kind of program do I need to read BIN files? The hard way is to use "debug.exe" as published with DOS and WIN95. However, most eprom programmers, which you need to take that image and "shove" it into an Eprom, can display it as well. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ --- From bowling at cebaf.gov Mon Jan 12 18:55:55 1998 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:55:55 -0500 Subject: subaru [subaru?] ecu. Message-ID: > > > While looking at some vacuum tube schematics > I stumbled across a site devoted to a subaru > ecu. Japanese, but a lot of information / > graphs. Let's see if I get this right: > > I did not know that Subaru ECU's used vacuum tubes. [I wonder if you really could build a vacuum tube ECU?] - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23606 (804) 249-7240 bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From gcouger at ionet.net Mon Jan 12 19:00:26 1998 From: gcouger at ionet.net (Gordon Couger) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:00:26 -0500 Subject: Abrasive flow finishing Message-ID: >Michael Baxter wrote: > >> Aerodynamics is still black magic, IMO. ----------- It's a lot worse than that. I like Albert Enstien's observation on turbulance. He seriously considered making his life's work turbulance but he decided that problem was not solvable. Gordon >> All I really know > >If you would call the F-18E/F program at McDonald-Douglas, oh excuse me, >that's Boeing St Louis, you'd find lot's of agreement. Having one wing >stop flying at .8 mach must be lots of fun! > >Joe Boucher >'70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban > From clsnyde at ibm.net Mon Jan 12 19:26:58 1998 From: clsnyde at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:26:58 -0500 Subject: subaru [subaru?] ecu. Message-ID: Carter Hendricks wrote: > > While looking at some vacuum tube schematics > I stumbled across a site devoted to a subaru > ecu. Japanese, but a lot of information / > graphs. Let's see if I get this right: > > www.keisei.tsukuba.ac.jp/~kashima/gc8.html > > [all lower case]. > > 'don't know if this has been mentioned before. > > --Carter Might be OK if you can read Japanese - I can't -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From nacelp at bright.net Mon Jan 12 19:43:16 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:43:16 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: If the fuel flashs into a vapor as it leaves the nozzle of the injector, then the same must happen at the fuel pressure regualtor (yes/no?), on a car with a return sytle regulator. Does anyone see away around this, or is that why it's not done, cause the car is then kinda fuel/air bomb ?.. Thanks Bruce Any one can have my hat when they pry it outta dead hands From jb24 at chrysler.com Mon Jan 12 22:24:47 1998 From: jb24 at chrysler.com (jb24 at chrysler.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:24:47 -0500 Subject: fuel evaporation & injectors Message-ID: >>>> >This reminds me, what's the deal with Mitsubishi's GDI (gasoline direct >injection?) engines? Is this a diesel type setup? I can't get anything but >Mitsu's hype about more power, less emissions, more mileage. Basically, they eliminate the "swirl" problems around the valve when the fuel/air mixes, and the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder, supposively to atomize it much better. Maybe, maybe not. I can't really tell, but what they are doing is running the engines increadibly lean during non-load periods (coasting, downhill, idle, etc) on alternating cylinders, so there is enough "ooomth" to rotate the crank, but doesn't really blow a lot of fuel. This is how they achieve their high-mileage claim, at least according to the documentation. <<<< Direct fuel injection for gas does a couple of things: allows extremely lean combustion, beyond what is normally ignitable and allows for elimination of part-throttle pumping losses by operating like a diesel during lean combustion (i.e. wide open throttle, no throttling at partial power). One other benefit is near elimination of acceleration enrichment. The lean combustion is accomplished by stratified charging the cylinder in the compression stroke by injecting late near the spark plug. The greater power claims are potentially explained by injecting downstream of the intake valve, thus not displacing any air with gasoline on intake (although only marginally). John Bucknell is jb24 at chrysler.com From tc75918 at hpnfssvr.mdhc.mdc.com Mon Jan 12 23:13:03 1998 From: tc75918 at hpnfssvr.mdhc.mdc.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:13:03 -0500 Subject: fuel evaporation & injectors Message-ID: Robert Harris wrote: > > One very simple thing to make life very easy. If you can the piss dribble > injector stream directly onto the intake valve, such as by locating the nozzle > in the valve pocket, then you have magic. It seems like the back side of the > valve averages about 600 F or more depending on load. This should totally > vaporize and keep vaporized the fuel. > So what's the temp at which the fuel/air mixture will spontaneously combust? 600 F seems awfully hot. Is there any danger of the fuel exploding instead of just vaporizing? --Dan From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Mon Jan 12 23:29:35 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:29:35 -0500 Subject: subaru [subaru?] ecu. Message-ID: >I did not know that Subaru ECU's used vacuum tubes. I don't think they do :) However the site is in japanese, so unless one of you bi-lingual folks want to translate... >[I wonder if you really could build a vacuum tube ECU?] Why not? A Vacuum tube works similar to a bi-polar transistor, with some interesting heat-related properties. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ --- From dubovsky at vt.edu Tue Jan 13 00:00:43 1998 From: dubovsky at vt.edu (Stephen Dubovsky) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:00:43 -0500 Subject: subaru [subaru?] ecu. Message-ID: ... >>[I wonder if you really could build a vacuum tube ECU?] Sure! >Why not? A Vacuum tube works similar to a bi-polar transistor, with some >interesting heat-related properties. > I think we are getting a little off subject here, but tubes do NOT work like bipolars. They work just like JFETS ;) Stephen Dubovsky From pfenske at direct.ca Tue Jan 13 00:33:34 1998 From: pfenske at direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:33:34 -0500 Subject: subaru [subaru?] ecu. Message-ID: Well the first Bendix Electrojector did in the mid fifties(not SBC continuous system) Took 30 secs before you could start the car gl:peter At 06:25 PM 1/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I did not know that Subaru ECU's used vacuum tubes. > >I don't think they do :) However the site is in japanese, so unless one of >you bi-lingual folks want to translate... > >>[I wonder if you really could build a vacuum tube ECU?] > >Why not? A Vacuum tube works similar to a bi-polar transistor, with some >interesting heat-related properties. > > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >--- > > From cwebb at polarnet.com Tue Jan 13 01:39:34 1998 From: cwebb at polarnet.com (Ron & Cathy Webb) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:39:34 -0500 Subject: Subaru legacy post 1995 ECU Message-ID: I have a friend who is trying to install a 1995 Subaru Legacy engine, with factory ECU intact, into a gyrocopter. He has reached the point that he can run it on the bench, and finds that after 3 minutes or so it goes into what sounds like limp home mode. Not over 4200 RPM. He thinks this is related to the OBD2 stuff. The ECU can't talk to the transmission, 4WD system, ABS system, or whatever, and eventually decides there is a TERRIBLE problem. Anybody know how to tell this thing to "shut up and soldier"? From avos at cochlear.com.au Tue Jan 13 02:22:01 1998 From: avos at cochlear.com.au (avos at cochlear.com.au) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:22:01 -0500 Subject: Subaru legacy post 1995 ECU Message-ID: I did a search on the diy_efi archive on subaru, and form memory there was information from a guy who installed a subaru engine in a kombi, and had and resolved this problem. You might want to check this out..... ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Subaru legacy post 1995 ECU Author: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 13/1/98 13:06 I have a friend who is trying to install a 1995 Subaru Legacy engine, with factory ECU intact, into a gyrocopter. He has reached the point that he can run it on the bench, and finds that after 3 minutes or so it goes into what sounds like limp home mode. Not over 4200 RPM. He thinks this is related to the OBD2 stuff. The ECU can't talk to the transmission, 4WD system, ABS system, or whatever, and eventually decides there is a TERRIBLE problem. Anybody know how to tell this thing to "shut up and soldier"? From avos at cochlear.com.au Tue Jan 13 02:26:55 1998 From: avos at cochlear.com.au (avos at cochlear.com.au) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:26:55 -0500 Subject: subaru [subaru?] ecu. Message-ID: I have made extensive use of this site. It is mainly japanese, but it has all the information necessary to talk to the JECS subaru ECU using an rs232 port and a max232 chip if you spend the time to analyse it. Email the site with any questions, I did. I used this information to down-load my standard map out of a legacy RS turbo. I emailed the guy from the site and he gave me the addresses of the fuel, timing and boost maps in the bin file, and I have had good success in remapping my standard ecu with a chip in the expansion slot of the ecu. If there are any subaru heads out there who want more info, please email me directly at avos at cochlear.com.au, as I have just had to unsubscribe from this list. Adrian ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: subaru [subaru?] ecu. Author: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu at INTERNET Date: 13/1/98 8:44 While looking at some vacuum tube schematics I stumbled across a site devoted to a subaru ecu. Japanese, but a lot of information / graphs. Let's see if I get this right: www.keisei.tsukuba.ac.jp/~kashima/gc8.html [all lower case]. 'don't know if this has been mentioned before. --Carter From dpainter at anv.net Tue Jan 13 03:21:02 1998 From: dpainter at anv.net (Dan Painter) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:21:02 -0500 Subject: Arctic Cat Snowmobile EFI Chip Info Message-ID: Just subscribed to this web site. WOW!! What a bunch of knowledge waiting to be tapped for those of us with strange projects. In particular, several years ago I managed an Arctic Cat snowmobile dealership and had to wade thru several chip changes by the manufacturer to get the EFI sleds running correctly. As I understand it, the ECUs were Subaru (JEC?) but chips could only be ordered from Arctic Cat. Has there ever been a post on Arctic Cat chips and/or the EFI system used by Cat? They recently brought out a batteryless EFI but I'm not familiar with this system. I'd appreciate any inputs. Thanks - Dan Painter From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Tue Jan 13 03:45:51 1998 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:45:51 -0500 Subject: fuel evaporation & injectors Message-ID: The point is simple. The fuel and air will pass the valve or it don't go into the engine. The valve face reaches combustion temp and is held at exhaust temp for at least half the time. Air flowing into the cylinder COOLS this valve - but heats the air reducing VE. Fuel sprayed here helps cool the valve. Upstream or where-ever its going to pass this point and this temp. Might as well use it if you can. If the first ingredient ain't Habanero, then the rest don't matter. Other Obsessions: Ferro-Equinary , 1972 "Killer Whale" Mustang Currently Interred in the Peoples Democratic Republic of California - Stalag Montclair Puck da guns - ban Politicians!!!!! Robert Harris -----Original Message----- From: d houlton x0710 [SMTP:tc75918 at hpnfssvr.mdhc.mdc.com] Sent: Monday, January 12, 1998 3:15 PM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: fuel evaporation & injectors Robert Harris wrote: > > One very simple thing to make life very easy. If you can the piss dribble > injector stream directly onto the intake valve, such as by locating the nozzle > in the valve pocket, then you have magic. It seems like the back side of the > valve averages about 600 F or more depending on load. This should totally > vaporize and keep vaporized the fuel. > So what's the temp at which the fuel/air mixture will spontaneously combust? 600 F seems awfully hot. Is there any danger of the fuel exploding instead of just vaporizing? --Dan From nacelp at bright.net Tue Jan 13 03:49:26 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:49:26 -0500 Subject: Subaru legacy post 1995 ECU Message-ID: Try swagaero at flash.net He's done some of that cloud stuff with em. Bruce Any body believe cone shaped hats have the optimum surface for cranial cooling?. From terryk at foothill.net Tue Jan 13 07:31:57 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:31:57 -0500 Subject: subaru [subaru?] ecu. Message-ID: Of course! It would be easy. It would take a kingman board the size of Texas and a lot of time though. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Bowling To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 1:55 PM Subject: Re: subaru [subaru?] ecu. >> >> >> While looking at some vacuum tube schematics >> I stumbled across a site devoted to a subaru >> ecu. Japanese, but a lot of information / >> graphs. Let's see if I get this right: >> >> > >I did not know that Subaru ECU's used vacuum tubes. > >[I wonder if you really could build a vacuum tube ECU?] > >- Bruce > > >-- >----------------------------------------------------- ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >----------------------------------------------------- > Bruce A. Bowling > Staff Scientist > Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility > 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23606 > (804) 249-7240 >bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling >----------------------------------------------------- ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >----------------------------------------------------- > From wrm at ccii.co.za Tue Jan 13 09:01:24 1998 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 04:01:24 -0500 Subject: Daewoo Cielo 150i chip Message-ID: Hi all My wife has a fairly new (10000km) Daewoo Cielo 150i (Opel look-alike with I *think* a GM engine) which has the normal emission-control flat spot just off idle. I know that most of the chip makers monitor this list, so: do any of you guys have a chip available? The local dudes (only 1500km away...) say something about an oscillator upgrade, which sounds real fishy to me. List semi-relavance: as soon as I get one of those round tuits I'll rip the FI box open and see what's inside :-) W From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Tue Jan 13 12:41:44 1998 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:41:44 -0500 Subject: subaru [subaru?] ecu. Message-ID: -> [I wonder if you really could build a vacuum tube ECU?] Sure. The Bendix Electrojector in the '50s, and the unnamed system Rochester played with. Of course, you had to warm up the tubes before you could go anywhere, and the Rochester one took up most of the passenger side floorboard of a full-sized car. That's why neither system went into production, and both companies stayed with mechanical FI. The Bosch mechanical system was high pressure, sequential, speed-density. The Rochester was continuous flow, low pressure, and mass air. Both worked just fine, but the amount of precision machining required for the control units made them expensive. It took the advent, not just of integrated circuits, but of *cheap* ICs, before electronic systems were practical. From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Tue Jan 13 14:08:08 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:08:08 -0500 Subject: Subaru legacy post 1995 ECU Message-ID: Ron & Cathy Webb wrote: > > I have a friend who is trying to install a 1995 Subaru Legacy > engine, with factory ECU intact, into a gyrocopter. > > He has reached the point that he can run it on the bench, and > finds that after 3 minutes or so it goes into what sounds like > limp home mode. Not over 4200 RPM. He thinks this is related to > the OBD2 stuff. The ECU can't talk to the transmission, 4WD > system, ABS system, or whatever, and eventually decides there is > a TERRIBLE problem. > > Anybody know how to tell this thing to "shut up and soldier"? I ran into problems with my TBI conversion because I didn't hook up the Vehicle Speed Sensor to the ECU correctly. I would quess the Subaru ECU is looking for something similar. How about tranny feedback? What ISN'T hooked up in this setup? Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Tue Jan 13 14:56:22 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:56:22 -0500 Subject: EFI Gyrocopters Message-ID: >Anybody know how to tell this thing to "shut up and soldier"? If you do not find anyone familiar with the Subaru ECM enough to help you out in making it ignore its environment, you might consider a Haltech or Electromotive Tec II type of system... for 4 cyl's without any real add-ons (Nitrious, turbo wastegates, etc) you can get a complete system in the under $1500 range. Might be out of your friend's price range, however it would make the entire problem go away, though introduce a minor tuning issue when you attach it. I'm familiar with the Haltech unit, and it does come with maps associated to different engines/displacements. Anyway, just an expensive though :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From steve at imes.com Tue Jan 13 16:18:42 1998 From: steve at imes.com (steve ravet) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:18:42 -0500 Subject: Daewoo Cielo 150i chip Message-ID: Wouter de Waal wrote: > > Hi all > > My wife has a fairly new (10000km) Daewoo Cielo 150i (Opel look-alike with I > *think* a GM engine) which has the normal emission-control flat spot just > off idle. On my S-10 Blazer which used to have the 2.8L v6, and a Chevy Corsica which also has the 2.8L v6, disconnecting the EGR solved this problem. The Blazer stored a trouble code when I did it, but the Corsica is great and has better off idle response now than it did new. I don't know if there is a chip upgrade that changes the EGR calibration, but there should be. --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve at imes.com From cwebb at polarnet.com Tue Jan 13 17:04:21 1998 From: cwebb at polarnet.com (Ron & Cathy Webb) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:04:21 -0500 Subject: Subaru legacy post 1995 ECU Message-ID: Joe Boucher wrote: > Ron & Cathy Webb wrote: > > > > > Anybody know how to tell this thing to "shut up and soldier"? > > I ran into problems with my TBI conversion because I didn't > hook up the > Vehicle Speed Sensor to the ECU correctly. I would quess the > Subaru ECU > is looking for something similar. How about tranny feedback? > What > ISN'T hooked up in this setup? Well...nothing other than the ECU, and all of the obviously necessary sensors are there. He couldn't find room for the transmission anywhere on the gyrocopter ;-} From crsm at oroboros.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 13 18:37:28 1998 From: crsm at oroboros.demon.co.uk (Chris Morriss) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:37:28 -0500 Subject: subaru [subaru?] ecu. Message-ID: In message <425568.7.uupcb at chaos.lrk.ar.us>, Dave Williams writes > >-> [I wonder if you really could build a vacuum tube ECU?] > > As an occasional builder of OTL (no output transformer) vacuum tube audio power amps, I can safely say that the same techniques for getting a controlled 20W or so into a 15 Ohm load would also drive the injectors. It would have to be a simple MAP sensed system only, with a timed injection pulse every crank rev, but it could be done if someone really wanted to do something strange. If anyone really wanted do do it for a show or similar, then the first thing to do is get some 6AS7 or 6080 low-impedance output triodes. (sorry, I've sold all mine, but I do have some 7534A/E130L low impedance pentodes that would manage the current) Then again, it's just too silly really isn't it?....mind you, the first audiophile EFI system would be amusing, you'd certainly get it featured in the car mags! -- Chris Morriss From jalbury at tpgi.com.au Tue Jan 13 19:26:27 1998 From: jalbury at tpgi.com.au (Justin Albury) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:26:27 -0500 Subject: Daewoo Cielo 150i chip Message-ID: Wouter de Waal wrote: > > Hi all > > My wife has a fairly new (10000km) Daewoo Cielo 150i (Opel look-alike with I > *think* a GM engine) which has the normal emission-control flat spot just > off idle. > > I know that most of the chip makers monitor this list, so: do any of you > guys have a chip available? The local dudes (only 1500km away...) say > something about an oscillator upgrade, which sounds real fishy to me. > > List semi-relavance: as soon as I get one of those round tuits I'll rip the > FI box open and see what's inside :-) > > W had one apart about 12 months ago....delco 808 and memcal but not programed the same and not the samd data streem (well couldnt get tech 1 to see it at all) as for the engine its gm. thats all i can say??? justin From rotax at ludd.luth.se Tue Jan 13 20:15:27 1998 From: rotax at ludd.luth.se (Daniel R. Henriksson) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:15:27 -0500 Subject: Volvo 760T -84... Message-ID: Does anyone know what type of EFI the Volvo 760 Turbo 1984 (B23ET) had when sold in Sweden? I've read many books but some says LH-Jetronic, some Motronic. It seems like it depends on which market the car was intended for. I'm planning on buying one of those Volvos, so I'm curious what I'l get. Are there any in-depth information on the early Motronic systems available on the net? (schematics, EPROM fuel/ign. map-layouts etc.) /Daniel Henriksson email:rotax at ludd.luth.se From nacelp at bright.net Tue Jan 13 20:18:23 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:18:23 -0500 Subject: Internet Phone Access Charges Message-ID: If ya want to keep local internet access calls free please let them know at isp at fcc.gov Bruce We will now continue with our regular programming From MBaxter at compuserve.com Tue Jan 13 20:18:55 1998 From: MBaxter at compuserve.com (Michael Baxter) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:18:55 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: Robert Harris writes: >> If it ain't vapour it ain't agonna burn. Period. See laws of physics - combustion section. Ideally, for maximum power, fuel "droplets" will enter the cylinder under their boiling temp, having absorbed the maximum heat from the mixture possible (thereby making it as dense as possible), and will then completely vaporize after the intake valve closes and prior to ignition. << I agree with you 100%. But Gary said "vaporize coming out of the injectors." That would reduce VE unless it was direct injection and I was wondering what Honda was thinking. I know Honda's engineers know what they're doing, just wondering what they're up to? There is a lot of R&D in the racing world to minimize the vaporization of fuel upstream of the intake valve and now Honda is doing it on purpose....they must know something the rest don't. !^NavFont02F02DB000EMGoHGxMH6AHIDD0921 -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter at Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 13-Jan-1998 From bruno at icd.teradyne.com Tue Jan 13 20:27:07 1998 From: bruno at icd.teradyne.com (Christopher Bruno) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:27:07 -0500 Subject: Binary file details... Message-ID: OK everyone. I know we have sort of touched on this but I don't know of any definite responses. If anybody that has these answers would prefer to e-mail me offline that's fine with me but here goes: I know that some of the people on the list have their own programmers and have been successful at reprogramming chips on their own. I have an '85 IROC TPI system and would like to be able to change some of the parameters around. Really I'm only concerned with timing advance adjustments, injector duty cycle adjustments and shutting off the EGR light (I don't have EGR heads so I'm concerned that the check engine light will come on). I have a programmer and can read the chips (I haven't tried yet but I'm pretty sure I can do it) and burn them myself so ALL I need to find out is what addresses the above items are located in and what the appropriate values are for each address. Thanks for all your help! -- Christopher Bruno Teradyne 321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 Boston, MA 02118 617.422.2040 Office 617.422.2304 Fax bruno at icd.teradyne.com From gderian at cybergate.net Tue Jan 13 22:41:49 1998 From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:41:49 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: I think Robert said, and I agree, that at part throttle VE is not important (VE schmee E), economy is. The last year for turbos in F1 were restricted by fuel consumption limits, not max power so the Honda guys were designing for the rules. They could always run a little more boost if they needed more power while maintaining fuel temperature for max. economy. Before the fuel economy rules in F1 the 1.5 liter engines were running 60 psi (all you can get with a single stage centrifugal compressor) boost and getting 1200+ hp. With the fuel regs, I think they were down around 700 hp or so. Thats why they did not worry about VE. I think they also had a thermostat in the intercooler to not overcool the intake air. Again, they were designing for economy, not max power. I don't remember the exact numbers but I think the specific fuel consumption was down below 0.40 lb per hp-hr. On a street engine with a turbo, you can usually boost enough to blow the crank out of the block. Designing for fuel economy seems like a good idea here, also. Gary Derian >Robert Harris writes: > >>> If it ain't vapour it ain't agonna burn. Period. See laws of physics - > >combustion section. > >Ideally, for maximum power, fuel "droplets" will enter the cylinder >under their >boiling temp, having absorbed the maximum heat from the mixture possible >(thereby making it as dense as possible), and will then completely vaporize > >after the intake valve closes and prior to ignition. > ><< > >I agree with you 100%. But Gary said "vaporize coming out of the >injectors." That would reduce VE unless it was direct injection and I was >wondering what Honda was thinking. I know Honda's engineers know what >they're doing, just wondering what they're up to? There is a lot of R&D in >the racing world to minimize the vaporization of fuel upstream of the >intake valve and now Honda is doing it on purpose....they must know >something the rest don't. > >!^NavFont02F02DB000EMGoHGxMH6AHIDD0921 > > -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter at Compuserve.com > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter > From Reno, NV USA on 13-Jan-1998 From cwt at teleport.com Tue Jan 13 23:56:46 1998 From: cwt at teleport.com (carl thompson) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:56:46 -0500 Subject: Volvo 760T -84... Message-ID: ---------- > From: Daniel R. Henriksson > To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Volvo 760T -84... > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 12:15 PM > > Does anyone know what type of EFI the Volvo 760 Turbo 1984 (B23ET) had when > sold in Sweden? > > I've read many books but some says LH-Jetronic, some Motronic. > It seems like it depends on which market the car was intended for. > > I'm planning on buying one of those Volvos, so I'm curious what I'l get. > > Are there any in-depth information on the early Motronic systems available > on the net? (schematics, EPROM fuel/ign. map-layouts etc.) > > > /Daniel Henriksson > > email:rotax at ludd.luth.se The Euro Spec 760 B-23ET high comp. used a Bosch L-Motronic with a crank fire EZK type ing system. You Volvo dealer will have a spec book the covers this eng although it was not for US sale. His book should have ing maps and Bosch part #s for all the parts. I have driven these in Sweden and they are quite strong. Have been a Voovo tech for 23 years and now am teaching at the local Comm Coll. Carl cwt at teleport.com From jr at ij.net Wed Jan 14 03:11:53 1998 From: jr at ij.net (Jesse R. Ortiz) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:11:53 -0500 Subject: GM MAP Sensors Message-ID: Does anyone here know which wires do what on the GM Map sensors? I'm also wondering what the signal range is on the two, and three bar map sensors. Is it just a voltage range, like 0-5v? Thanks... Jesse. From whisp at iocc.com Wed Jan 14 03:22:37 1998 From: whisp at iocc.com (Brian Dotson) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:22:37 -0500 Subject: TBI Injectors Message-ID: This question has probably been ask a hundred times but does anyone know what the drive requirements are for a stock GM TBI injector is. I am working on a project and need this info for a driver circuit board. Any help would be appreciated. Brian From dapiper at mail.one.net Wed Jan 14 03:43:39 1998 From: dapiper at mail.one.net (David Piper) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:43:39 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: >Before the fuel economy rules in F1 the 1.5 liter engines were running 60 >psi (all you can get with a single stage centrifugal compressor) boost and >getting 1200+ hp. Pleaase provide reference for interesting history of F1 turbo design. Thanks TurboDave dapiper at one.net West Chester, Ohio IZCC # 173 '77 280Z Custom Turbo Less Maintenance, More Performance. From terryk at foothill.net Wed Jan 14 04:50:21 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:50:21 -0500 Subject: GM MAP Sensors Message-ID: Gonna sound stupid here, but... Ground, +5V and output. Output is 0-5V for 0 to full scale. Full Scale is 1 BAR, 2 BAR or 3 BAR for each of the MAP versions. -----Original Message----- From: Jesse R. Ortiz To: DIY_EFI Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 7:59 PM Subject: GM MAP Sensors >Does anyone here know which wires do what on the GM Map sensors? I'm also >wondering what the signal range is on the two, and three bar map sensors. Is >it just a voltage range, like 0-5v? > >Thanks... > >Jesse. > > From shannen at mcn.net Wed Jan 14 05:42:39 1998 From: shannen at mcn.net (Shannen Durphey) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:42:39 -0500 Subject: Internet Phone Access Charges Message-ID: bruce plecan wrote: > If ya want to keep local internet access calls free > please let them know at isp at fcc.gov > Bruce We will now continue with our regular > programming All is not as it appears. http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Common_Carrier/Factsheets/ispfact.html From terryk at foothill.net Wed Jan 14 06:39:54 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 01:39:54 -0500 Subject: 90-92 Sonoma Rom Message-ID: Anybody got a 90-92 Sonoma truck file? 4.3L Vortec type. Thanks Terry Kelley From tony.cooper at virgin.net Wed Jan 14 08:40:30 1998 From: tony.cooper at virgin.net (Tony Cooper) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:40:30 -0500 Subject: Schematic Message-ID: Martin Scarr wrote: > > Hi Tony- > > Did you ever dig up that schematic you were going to send? > > Thanks > Martin Scarr Sorry Martin, and everybody else who is waiting for the turbo boost enrichment design, but here is the low down. We had a hard disk crash recently, and the design was lost, however, We are currently doing a re-design, shouldn't be long, so hold tight for a short while and I will post it as soon as we have reverse engineered the design. Please be patient.... Thanks Tony -- Sent By Tony Cooper. email: tony.cooper at virgin.net Allow at least 10 working minutes for reply. ;) From wrm at ccii.co.za Wed Jan 14 10:56:48 1998 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 05:56:48 -0500 Subject: Daewoo Cielo 150i chip Message-ID: Hi all Steve sez: >On my S-10 Blazer which used to have the 2.8L v6, and a Chevy Corsica >which also has the 2.8L v6, disconnecting the EGR solved this problem. I don't *think* the Daewoo has EGR. How would I know? Some kind of valve between the exhaust pipe and the inlet manifold? With a wire coming off that you accidentally unplug? We don't have emission control over here, more than half of everybody is still running leaded, and I would assume that the only emmision related stuff on the Daewoo would be the stuff that would have been to expensive to take out, or not worth taking out, like the FI and timing maps for the engine. I prefer my engines to idle BTDC, emission control seems to like it at ATDC :-) Justin: Delco 808? I'm a bit familiar with Bosch, but not the US stuff. Any info out anywhere? (Yea I know, dream on...) Thanks W From steveb at baydel.com Wed Jan 14 11:04:08 1998 From: steveb at baydel.com (Steve Boorman) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:04:08 -0500 Subject: Motronic idle CO settings Message-ID: I have just reset the idle CO level on a EURO 1988 Porsche 911 Carrera. It was high, approx 4% and is now adjusted to 1.2%, the FI is a Motronic (1.1 or 1.3???). The question is does anybody know if changing the idle CO will change the CO level for anything other than the idle throttle position. As this is a U.K. model it does NOT have a O2 sensor and is thus operating in an open loop mode. TIA -- --------------------------------- Steve Boorman steveb at baydel.com --------------------------------- From gderian at cybergate.net Wed Jan 14 13:09:26 1998 From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:09:26 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: Honda punlished an SAE paper after the turbos were outlawed. I don't have the number but it can be found at www.sae.org. I just looked there. It must be out of print but is still available. By the way, SAE has tons of really interesting papers. Gary Derian >>Before the fuel economy rules in F1 the 1.5 liter engines were running 60 >>psi (all you can get with a single stage centrifugal compressor) boost and >>getting 1200+ hp. > >Please provide reference for interesting history of F1 turbo design. > >Thanks > >>TurboDave dapiper at one.net West Chester, Ohio >IZCC # 173 >'77 280Z Custom Turbo >Less Maintenance, More Performance. From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Wed Jan 14 14:52:31 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:52:31 -0500 Subject: GM MAP Sensors Message-ID: > From: Jesse R. Ortiz > To: DIY_EFI > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 7:59 PM > Subject: GM MAP Sensors > > >Does anyone here know which wires do what on the GM Map sensors? I'm also > >wondering what the signal range is on the two, and three bar map sensors. > Is > >it just a voltage range, like 0-5v? > > > >Thanks... > > > >Jesse. > > > > You're in luck. I'm messing with a map sensor at home, leading up to an op amp circuit to modify the sensor signal to the ECU. I found a power supply from an ancient external modem that had a 1 amp, 5 volt output to power my test setup. The wires are: A) ground; B) signal back to the ECU; C) 5 volt signal to the sensor. Do you have the connector? The wire identification is on the plug. If I remember right, if you hold the sensor with the connector pointing up and the plug side of the sensor turned toward you, then the wires are A, B, C from left to right. You;ll have to wait till I get home to confirm. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From rotax at ludd.luth.se Wed Jan 14 15:21:51 1998 From: rotax at ludd.luth.se (Daniel R. Henriksson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:21:51 -0500 Subject: Bosch numbers...? Message-ID: Hi I need help on identifying these bosch parts. ECU 0 261 200 012 (Motronic ?.?, L or LH ?) Inj. 0 280 150 355 (Flowcapacity ?) AMM 0 280 202 035 (Hotwire or flaptype? Size?) Pressure regulator 0 280 160 213 (Pressure ?) (All parts reside under the hood of a Volvo 760 Turbo -84.) Thanks in advance... /Daniel, Sweden rotax at ludd.luth.se From steve at imes.com Wed Jan 14 15:25:31 1998 From: steve at imes.com (steve ravet) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:25:31 -0500 Subject: Daewoo Cielo 150i chip Message-ID: Wouter de Waal wrote: > > Hi all > > Steve sez: > > >On my S-10 Blazer which used to have the 2.8L v6, and a Chevy Corsica > >which also has the 2.8L v6, disconnecting the EGR solved this problem. > > I don't *think* the Daewoo has EGR. How would I know? Some kind of valve > between the exhaust pipe and the inlet manifold? With a wire coming off that > you accidentally unplug? EGR valves that I have seen are vacuum operated actuators, 2-3 inches in diameter, mounted to the intake manifold on a "stalk" a couple inches long. There are passages inside the head and intake that route exhaust into the intake, the vacuum valve allows the two to mix. Computer engines will probably also have a few wires going to the valve, the ECM pulse width modifies the vacuum signal to control when the valve opens. --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve at imes.com From dave at scarlet.buffalostate.edu Wed Jan 14 15:52:05 1998 From: dave at scarlet.buffalostate.edu (Dave Andruczyk) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:52:05 -0500 Subject: GM MAP Sensors Message-ID: > Does anyone here know which wires do what on the GM Map sensors? I'm also > wondering what the signal range is on the two, and three bar map sensors. Is > it just a voltage range, like 0-5v? Yep, the map sensor is typically just a variable resistor. o volts goies in one term, 5 volts on the other, and the middle line ( sometimes) is the output. ( wiper of the pot) you can tell which is which witha voltmeter.. ends have the highest resistance between them. Dave From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Wed Jan 14 16:16:45 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:16:45 -0500 Subject: GM MAP Sensors Message-ID: >The wires are: A) ground; B) signal back to the ECU; C) 5 volt signal to >the sensor. Do you have the connector? The wire identification is on >the plug. If I remember right, if you hold the sensor with the >connector pointing up and the plug side of the sensor turned toward you, >then the wires are A, B, C from left to right. That's what the map sitting in my garage says... A B C left to right. Curious - why are you modifying your MAP sensor output, going to tell the ECU you have more boost than you do, as to run a little richer? Just curious! Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From kv at us.ibm.com Wed Jan 14 16:36:02 1998 From: kv at us.ibm.com (Kevin Vannorsdel) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:36:02 -0500 Subject: GM MAP Sensors Message-ID: Has anyone ever looked at the MAP adjuster unit that Turbo City sells? They also have something called a "Mixture enhancement selector" or something like that. Supposedly it is also a MAP modifier. Any comments? ________________________________________________ Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv at us.ibm.com owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu on 01/14/98 02:45:34 AM Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ internet To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ internet cc: Subject: Re: GM MAP Sensors > From: Jesse R. Ortiz > To: DIY_EFI > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 7:59 PM > Subject: GM MAP Sensors > > >Does anyone here know which wires do what on the GM Map sensors? I'm also > >wondering what the signal range is on the two, and three bar map sensors. > Is > >it just a voltage range, like 0-5v? > > > >Thanks... > > > >Jesse. > > > > You're in luck. I'm messing with a map sensor at home, leading up to an op amp circuit to modify the sensor signal to the ECU. I found a power supply from an ancient external modem that had a 1 amp, 5 volt output to power my test setup. The wires are: A) ground; B) signal back to the ECU; C) 5 volt signal to the sensor. Do you have the connector? The wire identification is on the plug. If I remember right, if you hold the sensor with the connector pointing up and the plug side of the sensor turned toward you, then the wires are A, B, C from left to right. You;ll have to wait till I get home to confirm. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From clsnyde at ibm.net Wed Jan 14 17:23:00 1998 From: clsnyde at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:23:00 -0500 Subject: GM MAP Sensors Message-ID: Dave Andruczyk wrote: > > > Does anyone here know which wires do what on the GM Map sensors? I'm also > > wondering what the signal range is on the two, and three bar map sensors. Is > > it just a voltage range, like 0-5v? > > Yep, the map sensor is typically just a variable resistor. > o volts goies in one term, 5 volts on the other, and the middle line ( > sometimes) is the output. ( wiper of the pot) > > you can tell which is which witha voltmeter.. > ends have the highest resistance between them. > > Dave Except on some they are solid state, and although they ACT like a pot, they don't measure like one. On these animals the voltage on the second terminal varies with pressure, but an ohm-meter will not give you an indication. Sort of like a variable voltage regulator, varied by MAP. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From lndshrk at xmission.com Wed Jan 14 17:37:49 1998 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:37:49 -0500 Subject: Bosch numbers...? Message-ID: At 04:21 PM 1/14/98 +0100, you wrote: >Hi > >I need help on identifying these bosch parts. > >ECU 0 261 200 012 (Motronic ?.?, L or LH ?) Motronic ML 1.1 Most likely a soldered in EPROM with an 1802 processor >Inj. 0 280 150 355 (Flowcapacity ?) This I can't find.. although it's the same injector as the BMW Evo III (2.5l) M3 >AMM 0 280 202 035 (Hotwire or flaptype? Size?) Air FLOW meter.. flap type >Pressure regulator 0 280 160 213 (Pressure ?) 2.5 bar Jim From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Wed Jan 14 19:10:15 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:10:15 -0500 Subject: GM MAP Sensors Message-ID: Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Curious - why are you modifying your MAP sensor output, going to tell the > ECU you have more boost than you do, as to run a little richer? Just > curious! > Frederic Breitwieser According to Steve of Swagaero, using a GM fuel injection with a modified engine requires two general steps: 1) use an op amp circuit to pull the map circuit signal to where the ecu wants it to be; 2) Change the tables in the eeprom to a richer mixture to compensate for the different torque peaks and fuel demands of the modified engine. My Camaro idles at about 11 in-hg. My understanding is the ecm's want to see 18. 10 in-hg is about 3.00 volts out of the map and 18 is 1.37. I haven't figured out this circuit yet. I wad going to try to design a voltage requlator to output 5 volts so I could drive my setup in the Camaro for awhile, hooked up to a digital voltmeter. I bought a 5.1 zenier diode for about a buck, then I found a 5 volt, 1 amp chip regulator at Rat Shack for 1.65. Oh well. The next problem is figuring out how to find the tables in the eeprom bin files. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Wed Jan 14 19:13:04 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:13:04 -0500 Subject: GM MAP Sensors Message-ID: Clare Snyder wrote: > Except on some they are solid state, and although they ACT like a pot, > they don't measure like one. On these animals the voltage on the second > terminal varies with pressure, but an ohm-meter will not give you an > indication. Sort of like a variable voltage regulator, varied by MAP. > -- > _/\_ > --|-----([])-----|-- > S 0/ \0 B > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > E-Mail service is back to normal > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages > Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca > OR > Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the > spammers!!! > It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of > Turkeys!!! No (Solid Waste Materials)!! I thought I was going crazy trying to get a reading out of a map using just a resistance meter. Not until I fed it 5 volts could I get a change. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 14 19:40:41 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:40:41 -0500 Subject: GM MAP Sensors Message-ID: Kevin Vannorsdel wrote: > > Has anyone ever looked at the MAP adjuster unit that Turbo City sells? They > also have something called a "Mixture enhancement selector" or something like > that. Supposedly it is also a MAP modifier. Any comments? > I have one here and have never used it so I'll try it in the next few days and let you all know........ -Carl Summers > ________________________________________________ > Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development > 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv at us.ibm.com > > owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu on 01/14/98 02:45:34 AM > Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ internet > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ internet > cc: > Subject: Re: GM MAP Sensors > > > From: Jesse R. Ortiz > > To: DIY_EFI > > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 7:59 PM > > Subject: GM MAP Sensors > > > > >Does anyone here know which wires do what on the GM Map sensors? I'm also > > >wondering what the signal range is on the two, and three bar map sensors. > > Is > > >it just a voltage range, like 0-5v? > > > > > >Thanks... > > > > > >Jesse. > > > > > > > > You're in luck. I'm messing with a map sensor at home, leading up to an > op amp circuit to modify the sensor signal to the ECU. I found a power > supply from an ancient external modem that had a 1 amp, 5 volt output to > power my test setup. > > The wires are: A) ground; B) signal back to the ECU; C) 5 volt signal to > the sensor. Do you have the connector? The wire identification is on > the plug. If I remember right, if you hold the sensor with the > connector pointing up and the plug side of the sensor turned toward you, > then the wires are A, B, C from left to right. > > You;ll have to wait till I get home to confirm. > > Joe Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From compass at connect.net Wed Jan 14 20:00:54 1998 From: compass at connect.net (Bill Moffitt) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:00:54 -0500 Subject: Bosch numbers...? Message-ID: > >Inj. 0 280 150 355 (Flowcapacity ?) > > This I can't find.. although it's the same injector as > the BMW Evo III (2.5l) M3 > This injector is listed on our web page: http://www.connect.net/compass/technica.htm -- Bill Moffitt Principal Engineer Compass Avionics Incorporated 1002 N. Central Expwy. Suite 239 Richardson, TX. 75080 http://www.connect.net/compass From nacelp at bright.net Wed Jan 14 21:34:09 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:34:09 -0500 Subject: GM MAP Sensors Message-ID: For those of you working on the OpAmp Foolers remember the ECM looks at the MAP before start up to figure out what the rel baro pressure is, at least on the 747 series, so the op-amp should be "on" only with the engine running. Or ya will have some hiccups, or at least I did when using a resistor divider setup to try to fool the ECM about the vacuum signal. I tried a ten step TPS divider, and it was notchy, to me. HTH Bruce From PN.rodda at virgin.net Thu Jan 15 11:11:30 1998 From: PN.rodda at virgin.net (PN.rodda at virgin.net) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:11:30 -0500 Subject: Daewoo Cielo - WOUTER DE WAAL Message-ID: Wouter, I had a good look under the Cielo's bonnet (was home in Durban in May 1997 for a few days) and saw no evidence of EGR. Haven't looked at the the equivalent car in the UK (dang! forget the UK name ... Paul Rodda -------------------------- Opel 2.0 turbo Mini Cooper KAD 16v Mini Cooper Lancia Dedra 2.0 ie Fiat Panda From radcomms at ozemail.com.au Thu Jan 15 15:36:16 1998 From: radcomms at ozemail.com.au (radcomms at ozemail.com.au) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:36:16 -0500 Subject: Nissan ECU Connector Message-ID: Hi All, I've been subscribing to this list for some time, so it is about time I said hello ! I am looking for a source for ECU connectors as used by Nissan to suit the 300ZX Z32 (90 onwards) model. Would anyone have any idea as to a source ? All help appreciated. Thanks, Bob in Oz (Bob Rogers) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ROBERT K.ROGERS JRD Communications Pty Ltd Tel +613 95433811 25 - 27 Stafford Street Fax +613 9543-6353 HUNTINGDALE VICTORIA 3166 AUSTRALIA Mobile: 018 179796 WWW: http://www.jrd.com.au Email: radcomms at ozemail.com.au WWW2: http://www.netway.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pft101 at psu.edu Thu Jan 15 19:24:26 1998 From: pft101 at psu.edu (Paul Tholey) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:24:26 -0500 Subject: Line Lock and ABS Message-ID: I apologize for this being slightly off subject, but I would like to hear some speculation on a possible project of mine. I am a student at Penn State majoring in journalism. Have been a member of the list for about 1 year now. I wanted to write a simple tech article in hopes of getting it published. My idea was installing a roll control/line lock system on newer performance cars. The only problem I can foresee is how this may affect the ABS on some cars. My dad has worked for a Caddy dealer for the past 17 years. Recently, the Philadelphia area has been hit with a new type of emissions testing. The test is run on a dyno. I was figuring the ecm would read a line lock burnout to be no similar than a dyno run. In the dyno runs at my dad's dealership, the ABS light does come on. The system stops working until the key has been turned off. Once the car is started again, the ABS light is off, but the code is still stored in memory. I was thinking when the line lock is used to heat ties at the drag strip, and then to hold the car steady once staged, the ABS would have no real harm or help to the rest of the functioning car. I guess replies should be sent directly to me since this is not about EFI. If this is something others on the list would like to read, I would have no problem ccing the replies I get. Just drop me a line. Thanks, Paul Tholey pft101 at psu.edu From siaelec at accessus.net Fri Jan 16 15:31:51 1998 From: siaelec at accessus.net (SI Electronics) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:31:51 -0500 Subject: Chrysler SMEC Prom Message-ID: I would appreciate if anyone could let me know what EPROM is in the Chrysler SMEC units for year 88,89,90 2.2L, 2.5L, 3.0L THANKS SCOTT From mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Fri Jan 16 15:34:37 1998 From: mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Matt Beaubien) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:34:37 -0500 Subject: Subaru legacy ECM Message-ID: I don't have the original post but I believe SDS (www.sdsefi.com) is building/has built a special version of their EFI for homebuilt aircraft with Subaru engines. Check out their web site for more info. Matt Beaubien 3 x 510 1 x 300ZXT 1 x Civic 1200 From mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Fri Jan 16 15:38:28 1998 From: mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Matt Beaubien) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:38:28 -0500 Subject: injector resistance Message-ID: > >Before the fuel economy rules in F1 the 1.5 liter engines were running 60 > >psi (all you can get with a single stage centrifugal compressor) boost and > >getting 1200+ hp. > > Pleaase provide reference for interesting history of F1 turbo design. There's an SAE paper on the restriced boost F1 engines. I don't have the number handy though. They ran something like 86% toluene/14% xylene to achieve the mandated (R+M)/2 of 96ish octane. The toluene needed to be warmed under certain conditions because it doesn't vaporize very well. Because of their wacky fuel, I don't know how much can be applied to your average turbo engine. Matt Beaubien mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca From pfenske at direct.ca Fri Jan 16 17:01:18 1998 From: pfenske at direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:01:18 -0500 Subject: SAE J1708 Message-ID: Hi All sorry to bother you guys but does anyone have a copy of SAE J1708 which is a document on veh comms TIA:peter From dapiper at mail.one.net Fri Jan 16 17:07:40 1998 From: dapiper at mail.one.net (David Piper) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:07:40 -0500 Subject: Gas Analyzer Message-ID: What is the preferred Bosch hi flow fuel pump for EFI? Now using 0 280 254 957 (GFP 204). Is there a higher performance version? I need to flow 50 gph from 40 to 70 psi. TurboDave From Tregacorp at aol.com Fri Jan 16 17:35:27 1998 From: Tregacorp at aol.com (Tregacorp) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:35:27 -0500 Subject: Using PLC? Message-ID: I am interested in using a PLC to control a fuel injection system, anyone currently attempting this project, and is it feasible? I have seen someone using a pc, but would like to use a low cost plc. Kevin From clendenc at execpc.com Fri Jan 16 20:47:26 1998 From: clendenc at execpc.com (Chad Clendening,) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:47:26 -0500 Subject: Chrysler SMEC Prom Message-ID: I disected a 87 or 88 shadow 2.2, it has a 27c256 EPROM I don't know if this is the ECM you are talking about or not. From clendenc at execpc.com Fri Jan 16 20:47:27 1998 From: clendenc at execpc.com (Chad Clendening,) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:47:27 -0500 Subject: Chrysler SMEC Prom Message-ID: From sleonard at rocketmail.com Fri Jan 16 21:06:27 1998 From: sleonard at rocketmail.com (Steve Leonard) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:06:27 -0500 Subject: Injector info Message-ID: EFIer's I need some help. I'm starting to finishing work on my Turbo Suzuki GS1100E. The specs: 1133cc 10 to 1 compression inline 4, 4-valve engine Aerodyne variable vane Turbo,....320cfm Haltech F3 Batch-Fire controller Projected max rear wheel HP....210-220 on racing gasoline. It will have port injection. As I have not purchased any injector components, what rating and type of injector do you recommend. I have tried several of the available "injector sizing programs" but they each give me a different size. Anywhere from 18lbs/hr to 45lbs/hr. thanx - _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 16 21:23:13 1998 From: dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net (Ron Tyler) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:23:13 -0500 Subject: Motorola on Motorola Message-ID: Hey, Anybody know where I can find a GM 7749 burner for the Mac? No luck @ JDR Thanx -- Ron & Stephanie Tyler '72 LT1/T56 240Z WOT untill you see God... then BRAKE! From lndshrk at xmission.com Fri Jan 16 21:46:34 1998 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:46:34 -0500 Subject: TI 87C510 EPROM Message-ID: Has anyone seen this one before.. Used in a BOSCH Motorcycle control unit.. I had to read the number off the die under 100x magnification Jim From ECMnut at aol.com Fri Jan 16 23:28:32 1998 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:28:32 -0500 Subject: Motorola on Motorola Message-ID: Are there any affordable eprom burners for the Mac? Thanks MV From compass at connect.net Fri Jan 16 23:43:54 1998 From: compass at connect.net (Bill Moffitt) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:43:54 -0500 Subject: Subaru legacy ECM Message-ID: Take a look at Compass Avionics, Inc. We manufacture EFI exclusively for experimental aircraft. The web site is : http://www.connect.net/compass Matt Beaubien wrote: > I don't have the original post but I believe SDS (www.sdsefi.com) is > building/has built a special version of their EFI for homebuilt aircraft > with Subaru engines. Check out their web site for more info. > > Matt Beaubien > > 3 x 510 > 1 x 300ZXT > 1 x Civic 1200 -- Bill Moffitt Principal Engineer Compass Avionics Incorporated 1002 N. Central Expwy. Suite 239 Richardson, TX. 75080 http://www.connect.net/compass From RDSS-LARSON at worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 17 01:05:03 1998 From: RDSS-LARSON at worldnet.att.net (RICHARD LARSON) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:05:03 -0500 Subject: Using PLC? Message-ID: Tregacorp wrote: > > I am interested in using a PLC to control a fuel injection system, anyone > currently attempting this project, and is it feasible? I have seen someone > using a pc, but would like to use a low cost plc. > > Kevin I am a programmer of plc's of several brands. It would probably be feasible and quite easy to accomplish. Allen-Bradley now has a small processor called a micrologic 1000 which is comming out with a analog inut and output built. These units are about 7" long by 2" thich and 2.5: wide. They provide their own 24 vdc for devices and can run a 500 rung program in as little as 1 ms. I dont readily know if they have a dc powered unit but if Allen Bradley has gotten into this area, then other manufacturers have also or are already there. It would be qiute easy to do the mapping, timming, and analog input/outputs on a plc and the plc is designed for machine control. Also several manufacturers have quite a selection of MMI's (Machine-Man-Interface)software which interface the plc's directly with a PC for graphical analysis, display, and input/programming. the drawback is that some of these are high dollar. The Micrologics can be had for as little as 300.00 up depending on how many inputs and outputs you need. And no I don't work for any manufacturer of PLC's so I am not recomending any particular one over the other. I just happen to be using Allen Bradley in a current project. I would be curious if you pursue this and what your findings are. Hope I have shed some light and not told you what you already know. From whonea at codenet.net Sat Jan 17 02:59:42 1998 From: whonea at codenet.net (Will Honea) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:59:42 -0500 Subject: ALDL project Message-ID: I just snagged this group and spent the time to scan the archives on this topic - just what I needed, since I was in the process of 're-inventing the wheel', as it were. As the project has progressed as far as it has, the following document may provide some info for future reference as it (inevitably) progresses into OBDII. All the communications protocols are explained in detail - frames, formats, etc. No specific codes, but at least it defines the data formats! ftp://download.intel.com/design/intarch/papers/J1850_WP.PDF - or - http://134.134.214.34/design/intarch/papers/j1850_wp.pdf Now, if I can just paste enough of this together to figure out what the !@#$%^ is going on with my wife's Cadillac Cimmaron, I might be able to contribute a bit - MSEE, 25 years experience in data aquisition and analysis, I have access to PCB facilities if it ever gets that far. Will From wenning.motorsport at t-online.de Sat Jan 17 08:51:55 1998 From: wenning.motorsport at t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:51:55 -0500 Subject: TI 87C510 EPROM Message-ID: Land Shark schrieb: > Has anyone seen this one before.. > > Used in a BOSCH Motorcycle control unit.. > > I had to read the number off the die under 100x magnification > > Jim Yes, we?ve seen this eprom in a Fiat Bravo. Read it with your eprommer as a 87C510. Modify your maps then and program your data onto a 27C512 eprom using an adaptor. We?re offering this kind of adaptor but I don?t know about the price now. Send an e-mail if you?re interested. Regards Alex. From ludis at netcom.com Sat Jan 17 12:13:52 1998 From: ludis at netcom.com (Ludis Langens) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 07:13:52 -0500 Subject: Motorola on Motorola & Message-ID: Ron Tyler wrote: > Anybody know where I can find a GM 7749 burner for the Mac? No luck >@ JDR ECMnut wrote: >Are there any affordable eprom burners for the Mac? Jameco Electronics (800-831-4242) has two inexpensive serial port EPROM programmers. Part number 82384 ($199.95) handles up to 24 & 28 pin chips. Part number 81699 ($249.95) extends that to 32 pins. Both communicate via a serial port and use the Motorola (S19 & etc.) format for data. The only software you need on your computer end is a terminal emulator with capture capability. I've got the "smaller" of the two. It is working great with a Mac. But I wish I had gotten the "larger" version - in addition to the 32 pin chips, it has more selections for programming voltage and algorithm. Neither version will program the TMS2516, TMS2532, TMS2564, or the Motorola 24 pin 8K*8 EPROM. I had to build an adapter for 2532's. BTW, these programmers are made in Europe and they use a Motorola 6805 microcontroller. unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; Ludis Langens return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + ludis at netcom.com (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} From jac at wavecom.net Sat Jan 17 13:50:38 1998 From: jac at wavecom.net (John Carroll) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:50:38 -0500 Subject: Using PLC? Message-ID: I have considered trying exactly this. The robust input and output as well as the available interfaces make them appealing. My main concern is that in order to make the hardware fast enough to keep up with an engine, one would have to hijack the software and take over the entire operation of the device. I bet this will be about as much work as doing the same thing to an automotive ECU and the underlying base of engine oriented software does not exist. One would have to bootstrap the entire project. If some other group is dedicated to modifying PLCs the way this group is dedicated to ECUs, many of the problems may have been solved. A phone call to PLC Direct at 800-633-0405 will get anyone a catalog of current PLC technology. John Carroll > I am interested in using a PLC to control a fuel injection system, anyone > currently attempting this project, and is it feasible? I have seen someone > using a pc, but would like to use a low cost plc. John Carroll jac at wavecom.net From soh at smartt.com Sat Jan 17 17:43:00 1998 From: soh at smartt.com (Jerome Soh) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:43:00 -0500 Subject: Motorola on Motorola & Message-ID: > Jameco Electronics (800-831-4242) has two inexpensive serial port EPROM > programmers. Part number 82384 ($199.95) handles up to 24 & 28 pin chips. > Part number 81699 ($249.95) extends that to 32 pins. Both communicate via > a serial port and use the Motorola (S19 & etc.) format for data. The only > software you need on your computer end is a terminal emulator with capture > capability. Sorry for jumping in so late here, but can somebody tell where I can the equipment necessary to reprogram 92-97 Honda ECU's? I'm new to all this, and don't know where to start. Thanks for the help. Jerome From lindross at inetdirect.net Sat Jan 17 20:46:06 1998 From: lindross at inetdirect.net (Scott Linder) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:46:06 -0500 Subject: Injector info Message-ID: Steve, As a fuel injector reconditioning shop we have many injectors to chose from. I would recomend the late bosch dri style injector at approx 20 lbs. These as other are available to you for $ 24.95 each and we can then exchange for bigger//smaller lbs for 50% trade in. This will save ya some $ in the trial stages. Jim Linder the injector " guru" Doug Garriott the injector wizzard. at www.lindertech.com steve Leonard wrote: > EFIer's > I need some help. I'm starting to finishing work on > my Turbo Suzuki GS1100E. > The specs: > 1133cc 10 to 1 compression > inline 4, 4-valve engine > Aerodyne variable vane Turbo,....320cfm > Haltech F3 Batch-Fire controller > Projected max rear wheel HP....210-220 > on racing gasoline. > It will have port injection. As I have not purchased > any injector components, what rating and type of > injector do you recommend. > I have tried several of the available "injector > sizing programs" but they each give me a different > size. Anywhere from 18lbs/hr to 45lbs/hr. > > thanx > > - > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From mwatts at facility.cs.utah.edu Sat Jan 17 23:27:12 1998 From: mwatts at facility.cs.utah.edu (UUCC) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:27:12 -0500 Subject: Using PLC? Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Tregacorp To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 12:22 PM Subject: Using PLC? >I am interested in using a PLC to control a fuel injection system, anyone >currently attempting this project, and is it feasible? I have seen someone >using a pc, but would like to use a low cost plc. > >Kevin I'm about to make an honest attempt at using an USB (Universal Serial Bus) microcontroller manufactured by Cypress Semiconductor. It may turn out to have insufficient resources to do the job, but hey, for a buck a part I can't lose much sleep over it if it doesn't work out. My prototype that I coded for a laptop PC proved to me where the critical spots are and how much resolution is needed to do a good job. Hopefully timing doesn't leave me DIW. I'll likely have to throw some hardware at the problem since the uC may have a rough time with simultaneous events. We'll see... I'll let you know more as things develop if anyone is interested. Matt Watts University of Utah Formula SAE Racing _________________ From parsonsfamily at mindspring.com Sun Jan 18 10:53:57 1998 From: parsonsfamily at mindspring.com (J. Rob Parsons) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 05:53:57 -0500 Subject: SAE J1708 Message-ID: If you live near a university which has a library with a decent reference library, ask for "SAE Handbook". This multi-volume reference has all the J standards. Specifically, I know that North Carolina State University library, Raleigh, NC USA has a copy. At 09:01 AM 1/16/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hi All > >sorry to bother you guys but > >does anyone have a copy of > >SAE J1708 > >which is a document on veh comms > >TIA:peter > > From nacelp at bright.net Sun Jan 18 11:10:43 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 06:10:43 -0500 Subject: Memcals Message-ID: On the memcals like on the GM 165s there are 3 chips one being the eprom, what exactly do the other 2 do?. Yes donations are still being accepted for my .bin files for the 165, 730, 747, 148, and 749 GM computers... Thanks again Bruce Show her you care, and give the gift that she'll never forget, a Cone Shaped Hat From bowling at cebaf.gov Sun Jan 18 16:17:08 1998 From: bowling at cebaf.gov (Bruce Bowling) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:17:08 -0500 Subject: VATS signal? Message-ID: Can someone tell me the frequency, amplitude, and duty cycle of GM's VATS (Vehicle anti-theft System) signal, as injected into a GM ECU? Is this signal always the same between GM ecu computers? Thanks - Bruce -- ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23606 (804) 249-7240 bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- From nacelp at bright.net Sun Jan 18 17:34:27 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:34:27 -0500 Subject: VATS signal? Message-ID: VATS Signal Far as I know all are 30Hz, 0-5V, 50% duty cycle. HTH Bruce From nacelp at bright.net Sun Jan 18 17:44:54 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:44:54 -0500 Subject: VATS signal? Message-ID: Bruce Bowling none of your e-mail addresses seem to be accepting letters. Bruce From nacelp at bright.net Sun Jan 18 18:20:40 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:20:40 -0500 Subject: Memcal Message-ID: If this is a duplicate excuse me. On the GM Memcals there are three chips 1. Eprom, either 27128, or 27256, any others?. 2. "Ceramic" 14 pin, for ESC, knock sensor?, and is one less sensitive than another?. 3. 16 pin, network resistor?. TIA Bruce The proper fitment of a cone shaped hat, reguires the ears to hold it up...... From nacelp at bright.net Sun Jan 18 18:23:32 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:23:32 -0500 Subject: VATS Message-ID: ref: Bruce Bowling As far as I know they are all the same, 0-5V, 50% duty cycle 30Hz square wave. Bruce From terryk at foothill.net Sun Jan 18 18:57:58 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:57:58 -0500 Subject: VATS signal? Message-ID: What ECM, turn off the VATS bit. TK -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Bowling To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 2:03 PM Subject: VATS signal? >Can someone tell me the frequency, amplitude, and duty >cycle of GM's VATS (Vehicle anti-theft System) signal, >as injected into a GM ECU? Is this signal always the >same between GM ecu computers? > >Thanks - Bruce > > >-- >----------------------------------------------------- ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >----------------------------------------------------- > Bruce A. Bowling > Staff Scientist > Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility > 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23606 > (804) 249-7240 >bowling at cebaf.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling >----------------------------------------------------- ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >----------------------------------------------------- > From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Sun Jan 18 19:04:59 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:04:59 -0500 Subject: 7730 Message-ID: I am working on a TPI conversion using a 7730 processor....this vehicle has no EGR and I am desperate to find out where the area is to shut off the EGR table completely and turn off the diagnostics for the same....I cannot correct these areas in the main fuel map as this of course makes it go rich when cold as EGR function should be temp sensitive.....I have info on other processors if trade is necessary.....Thanks, -Carl Summers From ed28 at ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 18 19:28:03 1998 From: ed28 at ix.netcom.com (Ed) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:28:03 -0500 Subject: SAE J1708 Message-ID: Do a search at http://www.sae.org They have what you are looking for, even sofware, but it's not free... >sorry to bother you guys but >> >>does anyone have a copy of >> >>SAE J1708 >> >>which is a document on veh comms >> >>TIA:peter >> >> > > > From terryk at foothill.net Sun Jan 18 22:01:55 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:01:55 -0500 Subject: 7730 Message-ID: What rom? -----Original Message----- From: Carl Summers To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 4:38 PM Subject: 7730 >I am working on a TPI conversion using a 7730 processor....this vehicle >has no EGR and I am desperate to find out where the area is to shut off >the EGR table completely and turn off the diagnostics for the same....I >cannot correct these areas in the main fuel map as this of course makes >it go rich when cold as EGR function should be temp sensitive.....I have >info on other processors if trade is necessary.....Thanks, >-Carl Summers > From martin at mgass.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 19 06:32:31 1998 From: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk (martin at mgass.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 01:32:31 -0500 Subject: Daewoo Cielo 150i chip/ EGR valves Message-ID: Thoughts about EGR valves : Disconnecting the EGR connection to the ECU may cause check engine code....maybe another way is as follows : - If the EGR allows exhaust gas to enter the inlet by opening up passageways in the block (I can't see any obvious external connection on my 16V 2.0L GM) then why not physically remove the EGR from the block....fabricate a suitable blanking plate from a flat piece of metal to fit between the EGR and the block...then put the plate and EGR back on. This would prevent exhuast gas getting into the inlet whilst also keeping the ECU happy because it can see the EGR electrical connection and the EGR thinks it is working normally. - Also easy to remove at yearly emissions test time ! - Any effects likely on CAT ? Anybody have any views/comments ? Martin ----------------------------------------------------------- martin at mgass.demon.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------- From MikeTurner at kemet.com Mon Jan 19 09:42:12 1998 From: MikeTurner at kemet.com (Mike Turner) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 04:42:12 -0500 Subject: Crossfire Injection Message-ID: How similar are TBI and the old much-maligned Crossfire injection used on Corvette's? They both use two large injectors and no MAF. Can I use a TBI ECU to run a Crossfire manifold? If so, any suggestions about ECU number's, PROM numbers, wiring harness or sensor issues, etc? Any help would be appreciated. TIA. From andmaca at tig.com.au Mon Jan 19 10:16:04 1998 From: andmaca at tig.com.au (Andrew McKenzie) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 05:16:04 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: Hi all, I have a few questions on my EFI conversion. I have a Rover V8 that I'm going to convert from carbs to EFI. I have a late model plenum off an 1988 Range Rover 3.5L. My question is do any cheap programable efi controllers exist?. I visited Haltech personally and the said there F-9 system is perfect for the job. The down side is that the price of AUS$1500 + seting up on a dyno is way out of reach. I can use the factory Lucas L injection components but i'm told there very unreliable (AFM S\h AUS$500 and ECU S\h AUS$500). I don't need ignition control as the electronic hall effect distributor works great. Surely a low cost EFi controller is available? Any help would be appreciated. Also someone locally is using An AC-DELCO MAP system off a 1989 onwards Holden 5.0L V8, with reprogramed a EPROM ,mounted on a Rover V8 with good results. Is the DELCO system tunable and suitable for performance work? I'm also interested in building a 5.0L Rover V8 Stroker motor for dual fuel (EFI and LPG) use, any suggestions?. TIA. Andrew McKenzie Sydney, Australia 1980(?) Rover 3500 S V8 Series 1 Update 5 Speed Hybrid Phone: (H) 61 (2)9528-8899 From rmjones at cyberhighway.net Mon Jan 19 10:18:49 1998 From: rmjones at cyberhighway.net (Mike Jones) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 05:18:49 -0500 Subject: Using PLC? Message-ID: Please do let us know how you make out... Mike Jones Eastern Power Corp. ---------- From: UUCC Sent: Friday, January 16, 1998 10:33 PM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Using PLC? I'm about to make an honest attempt at using an USB (Universal Serial Bus) microcontroller manufactured by Cypress Semiconductor. It may turn out to have insufficient resources to do the job, but hey, for a buck a part I can't lose much sleep over it if it doesn't work out. I'll let you know more as things develop if anyone is interested. Matt Watts University of Utah Formula SAE Racing begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AX0`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 at 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M6)E``@0`0```&4```!03$5!4T5$3TQ%5%532TY/5TA/5UE/ M54U!2T5/551-24M%2D].15-%05-415).4$]715)#3U)0+2TM+2TM+2TM+492 M3TTZ555#0U-%3E0Z1E))1$%9+$I!3E5!4EDQ-BPQ.3DX``````(!"1 !```` M%@,``!(#``!W!0``3%I&=3*$1;W_``H!#P(5`J0#Y 7K`H,`4!,#5 (`8V@* MP'-E=.XR!@`&PP*#, at +D!Q,"@R(S#WIH96P#($1LNF<"@'T*@ C/"=D[%D]X M,C4U`H *@0VQ"V!N\& @4&QE81'PL"!D;R ;0 5 M=00 at J&MN;P?@:!QA>0A at FB `P&L;@ A@="X=D-,*A0J%36D=,4H"( >0U0J% M11M@= 224!Q@!)"R( A0?**T&8 (P*=\JZRF08&ED87DL'N `<'49"L!Y("9 ,' Q.3FR.#$`,#H9 MD!L at 32O_&2BM5&\N/RKK9&EY,E\-P&E -F$9D#(N`0GP9RYO:&EO+29P!Y!_!D))$0(@.! F MP 6P';9)_P5 `, P\$J!`Z!$91' 1X#:( N !3E %0-\&D%22&Z 'D%,2=P6P4D#_ M'6(=S$0`%/$;TAS2'$,$8/\64$0P3[$W8!E0!" -L$> _Q7 at 5#!4T0!P'- ? M$$Y0!" _"X ?X46!"8 =OD7!(%=?1<$?-D=55* P\&]4X%7U`9!H"H5&!;!3 MH M@!@#\044'\ #0/.$BCSV?/J\50N\@%7$`9& ```,`$! ``````P`1$ `` M``! ```#T``0````4```!213H@```` +``,`#33]-P``HDHD ` end From siaelec at accessus.net Mon Jan 19 10:45:33 1998 From: siaelec at accessus.net (SI Electronics) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 05:45:33 -0500 Subject: Chrsler Smecs Message-ID: Chad Clendening metioned he had disected a 2.2L 87-88 Shadow. Would you or anyone else have a cross of the chips and transistors on the board. They are Motorola parts but have Chrysler numbers on them. Thanks Scott From EAXMJHI at ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk Mon Jan 19 11:13:01 1998 From: EAXMJHI at ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk (Martin Hill) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 06:13:01 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: > Hi all, > I have a few questions on my EFI conversion. I have a Rover V8 that > I'm going to convert from carbs to EFI. I have a late model plenum off an > 1988 Range Rover 3.5L. My question is do any cheap programable efi > controllers exist?. I visited Haltech personally and the said there F-9 > system is perfect for the job. The down side is that the price of AUS$1500 + > seting up on a dyno is way out of reach. I can use the factory Lucas L > injection components but i'm told there very unreliable (AFM S\h AUS$500 and > ECU S\h AUS$500). I don't need ignition control as the electronic hall > effect distributor works great. Surely a low cost EFi controller is > available? Any help would be appreciated. Also someone locally is using An > AC-DELCO MAP system off a 1989 onwards Holden 5.0L V8, with reprogramed a > EPROM ,mounted on a Rover V8 with good results. Is the DELCO system tunable > and suitable for performance work? I'm also interested in building a 5.0L > Rover V8 Stroker motor for dual fuel (EFI and LPG) use, any suggestions?. TIA. > Andrew McKenzie > Sydney, Australia > 1980(?) Rover 3500 S V8 Series 1 Update 5 Speed Hybrid > Phone: (H) 61 (2)9528-8899 > There are a few companies now who do simple controllers for fi. They basically work off the engine speed and throttle position. They tend to be around u300. As for the stroker. If you have the 3.5 block, then real steel in the u.k. will do a stroker kit to take it to 4.3l, or with the 3.9 block this goes to 4.8l. Ian Richardson at Wildcat Engineering do some cranks, rods and pistons which are supposed to be stronger for the new pegasus block, which will take it to 5l, or if you are feeling really adventurous they have some modified blocks which you can take to 6l. Although the blocks are around u2000 for these. Martin From ECMnut at aol.com Mon Jan 19 11:31:34 1998 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 06:31:34 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-19 11:04:17 EST, you write: << I have a few questions on my EFI conversion. I have a Rover V8 that > I'm going to convert from carbs to EFI. I have a late model plenum off an > 1988 Range Rover 3.5L. My question is do any cheap programable efi > controllers exist?. I visited Haltech personally and the said there F-9 > system is perfect for the job. The down side is that the price of AUS$1500 + >> Andrew, you might want to check out "Simple Digital Systems". They have a "fuel only" system, as well as systems that can manage different type of ignitions. Browse to : http://www.sdsefi.com/ The pages are pretty informative. MV From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Mon Jan 19 12:40:30 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:40:30 -0500 Subject: Crossfire Injection Message-ID: Mike Turner wrote: > > How similar are TBI and the old much-maligned Crossfire injection used on Corvette's? They both use two large injectors and no MAF. > Can I use a TBI ECU to run a Crossfire manifold? If so, any suggestions about ECU number's, PROM numbers, wiring harness or sensor > issues, etc? Any help would be appreciated. TIA. Mike, You should e-mail Bruce Plecan he has used a 1227747 in an 84 crossfire,,,contact him,,,,, Nacelp at bright.net good luck, -Carl Summers From garfield at pilgrimhouse.com Mon Jan 19 12:59:45 1998 From: garfield at pilgrimhouse.com (Garfield) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:59:45 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:10:42 GMT0BST, "Martin Hill" wrote: >There are a few companies now who do simple controllers for fi. They >basically work off the engine speed and throttle position. Yo, Martin, name names, please. We're all ears. [Other than the Holley Analog Projection system, that is. Everybody knows about that one.] Garfield From steve at imes.com Mon Jan 19 13:42:50 1998 From: steve at imes.com (steve ravet) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:42:50 -0500 Subject: ALDL project Message-ID: Will Honea wrote: > > I just snagged this group and spent the time to scan the archives on this topic - just what I needed, since > I was in the process of 're-inventing the wheel', as it were. As the project has progressed as far as it > has, the following document may provide some info for future reference as it (inevitably) progresses into > OBDII. All the communications protocols are explained in detail - frames, formats, etc. No specific codes, > but at least it defines the data formats! > > ftp://download.intel.com/design/intarch/papers/J1850_WP.PDF > - or - > http://134.134.214.34/design/intarch/papers/j1850_wp.pdf > > Now, if I can just paste enough of this together to figure out what the !@#$%^ is going on with my wife's > Cadillac Cimmaron, I might be able to contribute a bit - MSEE, 25 years experience in data aquisition and > analysis, I have access to PCB facilities if it ever gets that far. > > Will Hi Will, I think you might be on the wrong track. SAEJ1850 is OBD-II which has only come around in the last couple years. Previously all manufacturers invented their own methods of communicating with ECMs. GMs diagnostic link was called ALDL, and came in two major flavors as noted in the archives, 160 baud and 8192 baud. Your wife's Cimmaron is ALDL, not OBD-II. Sorry... --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve at imes.com From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon Jan 19 14:53:33 1998 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:53:33 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: -> Yo, Martin, name names, please. We're all ears. [Other than the -> Holley Analog Projection system, that is. Everybody knows about that -> one.] After damning the ProJection on its technical merits, I actually got to ride in a vehicle ('48 Ford pickup with a 302) with one the other day. Fired up okay, idled fine, drove just fine. It *does* work despite being basically a throttle position sensor controlled rig. From garfield at pilgrimhouse.com Mon Jan 19 16:13:42 1998 From: garfield at pilgrimhouse.com (Garfield) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:13:42 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:45:00 -0500, dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) wrote: > After damning the ProJection on its technical merits, I actually got to >ride in a vehicle ('48 Ford pickup with a 302) with one the other day. >Fired up okay, idled fine, drove just fine. It *does* work despite >being basically a throttle position sensor controlled rig. Yeah, actually I didn't mean to diss the ProJ when I said "everybody knows about that one". Just stating a hysterical (oops, I mean historical 8) fact. Something very similar was used in Aviation with good success. I really WOULD like to know about ANY other "simplified" FI systems; it's a keen interest of mine at present. Any leads/names/etc. gratefully appreciated. Garfield From romans at pacbell.net Mon Jan 19 16:28:44 1998 From: romans at pacbell.net (Mark Romans) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:28:44 -0500 Subject: GM Bin files Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BD24DD.FA6160A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HiYa Bruce!!!! I just got this from a friend of mine. It is a Hypertech prom for an 87 305 blazer automatic 4wd. I changed byte 2+3 to 00 8E so MT Truck will read it. Add this one to your collection! 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Cielo 150i chip/ EGR valves Message-ID: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk wrote: > > Thoughts about EGR valves : > > Disconnecting the EGR connection to the ECU may cause check engine > code....maybe another way is as follows : > - If the EGR allows exhaust gas to enter the inlet by opening up > passageways in the block (I can't see any obvious external connection > on my 16V 2.0L GM) then why not physically remove the EGR from the > block....fabricate a suitable blanking plate from a flat piece of > metal to fit between the EGR and the block...then put the plate and > EGR back on. > This would prevent exhuast gas getting into the inlet whilst also > keeping the ECU happy because it can see the EGR electrical > connection and the EGR thinks it is working normally. > - Also easy to remove at yearly emissions test time ! > - Any effects likely on CAT ? > > Anybody have any views/comments ? > > Martin > ----------------------------------------------------------- > martin at mgass.demon.co.uk > ----------------------------------------------------------- Martin, On an efi vehicle that has egr capacity, it always has either an egr table or "coefficient" that changes the amount of fuel entering the engine when the egr is activated,,,,,,when you stop the exhaust from coming in the intake manifold and the computer still thinks it is there, it will definately go lean, and if there are diagnostics for this it will turn the check engine light on. The only way to stop this is to turn the temp request for egr all the way up(in the chip) so it will never try to open the egr,,this will also stop the light from coming on.....I know where this is in most of the GM computers but haven't found it in the 7730 with an AUJP bin file,,,so if anyone knows where this is please advise,,it would sure save me alot of time trying to find it....Thanks, -Carl Summers From whonea at codenet.net Mon Jan 19 17:10:20 1998 From: whonea at codenet.net (Will Honea) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:10:20 -0500 Subject: ALDL project Message-ID: ** Reply to note from steve ravet Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:31:00 +0000 > Hi Will, I think you might be on the wrong track. SAEJ1850 is OBD-II which has only come around in the > last couple years. Previously all manufacturers invented their own methods of communicating with ECMs. > GMs diagnostic link was called ALDL, and came in two major flavors as noted in the archives, 160 baud > and 8192 baud. Your wife's Cimmaron is ALDL, not OBD-II. Sorry... I'm only too aware of that . My feeling is that any sucessful solution on ALDL will likely lead to a follow-on OBD-II effort - all those old GM's are gonna die one of these days - mine is really trying (in more ways than one). I just stumbled in here. What's the status of efforts to access the ALDL? Slogging thru the archives, I got the feeling that it was getting pretty well along, at least as far as the raw aquisition effort went. Any progress on decoding specifc info from the link? And thanks for the reply. Will Honea whonea at codenet.net From clendenc at execpc.com Mon Jan 19 17:47:07 1998 From: clendenc at execpc.com (Chad Clendening) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:47:07 -0500 Subject: Chrsler Smecs Message-ID: The shadow ECM had a motorola processor, 52 pin PLCC, 2 hitachi 6321 interface chips, a few other DIP's, one power zip package, and a to-220 package device. All of the high power drivers were on a seperate board above the processor board. This may have been out of a 86 but I thought the guy said it was an 87. The processor power pand crystal pins matched those of a 6811 a8 or e9. Chad From steve at imes.com Mon Jan 19 18:05:27 1998 From: steve at imes.com (steve ravet) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:05:27 -0500 Subject: ALDL project Message-ID: Will Honea wrote: > I just stumbled in here. What's the status of efforts to access the ALDL? Slogging thru the archives, I got > the feeling that it was getting pretty well along, at least as far as the raw aquisition effort went. Any > progress on decoding specifc info from the link? And thanks for the reply. > > Will Honea > whonea at codenet.net In the archives you can find enough info to access both data streams via a PC printer port without using any additional hardware. I have seen some information on decoding the data, but not much. --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve at imes.com From ECMnut at aol.com Mon Jan 19 18:11:21 1998 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:11:21 -0500 Subject: ALDL project Message-ID: Will Honea wrote: > that it was getting pretty well along, at least as far as the raw > aquisition effort went. Any progress on decoding specifc info > from the link? And thanks for the reply. Does anyone have some data stream they can zipn' mail to me? Thx, MV From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Mon Jan 19 18:14:00 1998 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Steve Lamb) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:14:00 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: > I have a few questions on my EFI conversion. I have a Rover V8 that >I'm going to convert from carbs to EFI. I have a late model plenum off an >1988 Range Rover 3.5L. My question is do any cheap programable efi >controllers exist?. I visited Haltech personally and the said there F-9 >system is perfect for the job. The down side is that the price of AUS$1500 + >seting up on a dyno is way out of reach. I can use the factory Lucas L >injection components but i'm told there very unreliable (AFM S\h AUS$500 and >ECU S\h AUS$500). I don't need ignition control as the electronic hall >effect distributor works great. Surely a low cost EFi controller is >available? You can have my INJEC EM2 system for about $600, including sensors, etc (I've just bought a MOTEC). >Any help would be appreciated. Also someone locally is using An >AC-DELCO MAP system off a 1989 onwards Holden 5.0L V8, with reprogramed a >EPROM ,mounted on a Rover V8 with good results. Is the DELCO system tunable >and suitable for performance work? I'm also interested in building a 5.0L The software to reprogram the Delco unit costs about $800 and was developed by a guy in South Oz. It's called DynoKal or Kalmaker. I believe there has recently been - or is about to be - an article about the Delco in Zoom magazine. There was also a couple of technical articles in Silicon Chip. On the whole, the consensus appears to be that the thing is very impressive. With later versions (VR/VS Commodes) the system even allows control of the tranny. It is definately tunable for performance work. Cheers Steve Lamb Department of Defence, DSTO Aeronautical and Maritime Research Laboratory 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Mon Jan 19 18:16:20 1998 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Steve Lamb) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:16:20 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: >In a message dated 98-01-19 11:04:17 EST, you write: > >Andrew, you might want to check out "Simple Digital Systems". >They have a "fuel only" system, as well as systems that can >manage different type of ignitions. Browse to : > http://www.sdsefi.com/ These are remarkably similar to the locally made INJEC units. Steve Lamb Department of Defence, DSTO Aeronautical and Maritime Research Laboratory 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From JBarnes262 at aol.com Mon Jan 19 18:26:33 1998 From: JBarnes262 at aol.com (JBarnes262) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:26:33 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: Hello Garfield << I really WOULD like to know about ANY other "simplified" FI systems; it's a keen interest of mine at present. Any leads/names/etc. gratefully appreciated. >> One system is Emerald M3D management system, By Emerald Cams, tel ( U.K. ) 01717 377 114. U.K. pounds 434.75, including P.C. software, It will run a V8 by fireing injectors in two groups, and has ignition map as well as fuel. sensors are only throtle position, water temp, and revs. I'v no experiance of this system, but it looks to be an easy to use. Jonathan. From dzorde at geocities.com Mon Jan 19 21:20:40 1998 From: dzorde at geocities.com (dzorde) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:20:40 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: Try one of the Wolf units, I'm using the Wolf3D (has ignition), you could do with the Wolf2D (fuel only) at about AU$800. I think its AEMS in the east that does them. Very easy to set up via the handcontroller. Dan dzorde at geocities.com >>In a message dated 98-01-19 11:04:17 EST, you write: > >> >>Andrew, you might want to check out "Simple Digital Systems". >>They have a "fuel only" system, as well as systems that can >>manage different type of ignitions. Browse to : >> http://www.sdsefi.com/ > >These are remarkably similar to the locally made INJEC units. > > >Steve Lamb >Department of Defence, DSTO >Aeronautical and Maritime Research Laboratory >506 Lorimer Street >Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia > >Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 >Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 > >IZCC #180 > > > From lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au Mon Jan 19 21:50:21 1998 From: lambs at HOTBLK.dsto.defence.gov.au (Steve Lamb) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:50:21 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: >Try one of the Wolf units, I'm using the Wolf3D (has ignition), you could do >with the Wolf2D (fuel only) at about AU$800. I think its AEMS in the east >that does them. Very easy to set up via the handcontroller. Yes, they are quite impressive units. The INJEC I've been running is very similar to the Wolf2D. The guy to talk to at AEMS (Advanced Engine Management Systems) is Steve Taylor: Steven Taylor Steve Lamb Department of Defence, DSTO Aeronautical and Maritime Research Laboratory 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From andmaca at tig.com.au Tue Jan 20 00:15:40 1998 From: andmaca at tig.com.au (Andrew McKenzie) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:15:40 -0500 Subject: FI controller Message-ID: Hi all, I have a few questions on my EFI conversion. I have a Rover V8 that I'm going to convert from carbs to EFI. I have a late model plenum off an 1988 Range Rover 3.5L. My question is do any cheap programable efi controllers exist?. I visited Haltech personally and the said there F-9 system is perfect for the job. The down side is that the price of AUS$1500 + seting up on a dyno is way out of reach. I can use the factory Lucas L injection components but i'm told there very unreliable (AFM S\h AUS$500 and ECU S\h AUS$500). I don't need ignition control as the electronic hall effect distributor works great. Surely a low cost EFi controller is available? Any help would be appreciated. Also someone locally is using An AC-DELCO MAP system off a 1989 onwards Holden 5.0L V8, with reprogramed a EPROM ,mounted on a Rover V8 with good results. Is the DELCO system tunable and suitable for performance work? I'm also interested in building a 5.0L Rover V8 Stroker motor for dual fuel (EFI and LPG) use, any suggestions?. TIA. Andrew McKenzie Sydney, Australia 1980(?) Rover 3500 S V8 Series 1 5 Speed Hybrid Series 1 Update Phone 61 (2) 9528-8899 From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Tue Jan 20 00:40:35 1998 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:40:35 -0500 Subject: Chrsler Smecs Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Chad Clendening wrote: > The shadow ECM had a motorola processor, 52 pin PLCC, 2 hitachi 6321 > interface chips, a few other DIP's, one power zip package, and a to-220 > package device. All of the high power drivers were on a seperate > board above the processor board. > > This may have been out of a 86 but I thought the guy said it was an 87. > > The processor power pand crystal pins matched those of a 6811 a8 or e9. > > Chad > IIRC, the pre 87 Chrysler stuff used 2 seperate modules, the 87 used a SMEC, that is both parts in one housing and post 87 used a SBEC, everything integrated on one board. The 87 I have has a 6811 on it. > Jim Davies From arndp at hotmail.com Tue Jan 20 16:12:35 1998 From: arndp at hotmail.com (Arnd Petersmann) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:12:35 -0500 Subject: Management Unit for sequential F.I. Message-ID: Which Management Unit is really professional for a sequencial Fuel Injection on European Cars ? I use a single Injection like a Weber 45 DCOE , but F.I. ofcourse. Thanks in advance, Arnd ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From flanagan at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 20 17:04:18 1998 From: flanagan at worldnet.att.net (Scott Flanagan) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:04:18 -0500 Subject: Using PLC? Message-ID: I checked out Cypress Semiconductor's homepage (http://www.cypress.com/) and I wondered do you really have to order their 400 something dollar developer's kit? If not how do you program it without it? Could you please shed some light on this and please keep me, and the group informed on your progress. I consulted my friend's father who is an EE on using a PLC and he recommended using a USB. I am thinking about using a USB to make a digital distriburtless ignitoin system, kind of like the one made by the GA Tech FSAE team. And then progress on to the tougher task of controlling the fuel injection. Let me know of anything that can help me, thanks a lot. I can't wait until college and the FSAE program, it sounds like such a great program. -Scott Flanagan (flanagan at worldnet.att.net) > >I'm about to make an honest attempt at using an USB (Universal >Serial Bus) microcontroller manufactured by Cypress Semiconductor. >It may turn out to have insufficient resources to do the job, but hey, >for a buck a part I can't lose much sleep over it if it doesn't work out. > >My prototype that I coded for a laptop PC proved to me where the >critical spots are and how much resolution is needed to do a good >job. Hopefully timing doesn't leave me DIW. I'll likely have to throw >some hardware at the problem since the uC may have a rough time >with simultaneous events. We'll see... > >I'll let you know more as things develop if anyone is interested. > >Matt Watts >University of Utah >Formula SAE Racing >_________________ From clendenc at execpc.com Tue Jan 20 19:48:59 1998 From: clendenc at execpc.com (Chad Clendening,) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:48:59 -0500 Subject: Chrsler Smecs Message-ID: This one of mine must be the 87 then. I have a pile of the 2 part pre 87 logic modules using a 6803 processor. Other than finding info on the 6803 and waiting for it to get here, that system isn't bad to figure out. Chad Clendening From fierojo at bellatlantic.net Tue Jan 20 20:00:34 1998 From: fierojo at bellatlantic.net (wynman) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:00:34 -0500 Subject: Crossfire Injection WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW Message-ID: I have a set up conssiting of the two TBI, intake, linkage, New ECM anf PROMs for manual and automatic use. All for $200. Interested. At 09:36 AM 1/19/98 -0500, you wrote: >How similar are TBI and the old much-maligned Crossfire injection used on Corvette's? They both use two large injectors and no MAF. >Can I use a TBI ECU to run a Crossfire manifold? If so, any suggestions about ECU number's, PROM numbers, wiring harness or sensor >issues, etc? Any help would be appreciated. TIA. Sincerely, Joe Wynman > From dfh at superlink.net Wed Jan 21 10:09:58 1998 From: dfh at superlink.net (dfh) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 05:09:58 -0500 Subject: Motronics 1.0 Help Message-ID: I am trying to modify a 1984 Bosch Motronics 1.0 unit - the one with the RCA 1802 processor and the soldered in ROMS (4 of them!). It seems at least one company offers a modification package to add on a removeable ROM to this system. Does anyone have a circuit diagram or other information on how to modify this thing? I have actually gotten the binary code from a Porshe enthusiast, and started to decompile it. I was also able to find a 1802 assembler, so I'm all set to modify the code - just not sure how to get a new ROM into this thing. (I'd migrate to a Motronics 1.1 if I didn't have to change a raft of stuff in my 84 BMW to get it to work correctly.) David Hoerl dfh at superlink.net PS: anyone know what a Siemens "BB 0127" chip is? Its used in the ECU off the temperature sensor - must be a voltage-to-freq converter or similar... From martin at mgass.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 21 10:17:20 1998 From: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk (martin at mgass.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 05:17:20 -0500 Subject: GM 16pin Diagnostic Socket Message-ID: I have a 1996 GM 2.0L 16V that has a 16 pin diagnostic socket. - Does this 16pin socket mean its got OBDII, does the old 10pin ALDL socket not have OBDII ? Was this 10 pin socket predominantly used with Bosch ECUs and early SimTec ? When and with what ECU's was the 16 pin socket introduced ? - Anybody have any example freeware/shareware that can drive the diagnostics with a laptop PC that they could e-mail me ? - I am looking to write my own diagnostic/programming software, anybody have any advice ? - Anybody know where could I purchase a plug for the16 pin socket to connect it to a PC ? Martin ----------------------------------------------------------- martin at mgass.demon.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------- From fhoward at one.net Wed Jan 21 11:19:55 1998 From: fhoward at one.net (Frank Howard) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 06:19:55 -0500 Subject: GM 16pin Diagnostic Socket Message-ID: Hi- My name is Frank Howard in Cincinnati, Ohio. I mostly just lurk here and with EFI332. Carcomp at http://www.carcomp.com just introduced a software/hardware package for GM cars with OBDII. They call it GMTool. I believe it will retail for approximately $269. You can't write/build much for those few dollars. I haven't bought it yet but it does look good on the surface. Regards Frank martin at mgass.demon.co.uk wrote: > I have a 1996 GM 2.0L 16V that has a 16 pin diagnostic > socket. > > - Does this 16pin socket mean its got OBDII, does the old 10pin > ALDL socket not have OBDII ? Was this 10 pin socket predominantly > used with Bosch ECUs and early SimTec ? When and with what ECU's was > the 16 pin socket introduced ? > > - Anybody have any example freeware/shareware that can drive the > diagnostics with a > laptop PC that they could e-mail me ? > > - I am looking to write my own diagnostic/programming software, > anybody have any advice ? > > - Anybody know where could I purchase a plug for the16 pin socket to > connect it to a PC ? > > Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > martin at mgass.demon.co.uk > ----------------------------------------------------------- From rick-l at rocketmail.com Wed Jan 21 11:28:33 1998 From: rick-l at rocketmail.com (Richard J Lebens) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 06:28:33 -0500 Subject: j1850 Message-ID: I'm starting to play with the serial bus in a vehicle I own. Can anyone tell me what version of J1850 (vpw or pwm) is in a 1995 ford windstar mini-van. Also is there a source to buy a harris semi HIP7020 bus transceiver? Is this the correct device for this application? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Rick Lebens _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From orin at wolfenet.com Wed Jan 21 13:58:41 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:58:41 -0500 Subject: The bar has been raised.... Message-ID: You need to send it to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, not diy_efi-digest-owner. > While reading in a popular screwdriver I noticed that supposedly > the latest wrinkle in mustangs is supposed to come with a blower, > about 4.5 litres, and most interestingly an electric eye to > sense fuel type so it'll know whether you've got gas or alchol in it. > The power was supposed to be something like 600 on gas and 800 on alchol. > Anyhow, as we all know ford will screw it up so that each one will > only work on that particular car, but we also know that other more > reasonable folks will be doing it soon also, and we'll get our goodies > there, just have to wait a little longer. No mention was made about > the direct injection the japs are trying to convince everybody they > invented.(I'll stick with pre ww2 direct injected Mercedes) From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 21 21:29:38 1998 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:29:38 -0500 Subject: j1850 Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:31:23 -0800 (PST) > From: Richard J Lebens > Subject: j1850 > To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > > I'm starting to play with the serial bus in a vehicle I own. Can > anyone tell me what version of J1850 (vpw or pwm) is in a 1995 ford > windstar mini-van. Also is there a source to buy a harris semi > HIP7020 bus transceiver? Is this the correct device for this > application? Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks > Rick Lebens > ford uses pwm. free samples were available in mid 1995, call Harris HIP7020 is designed for vpw used by GM, basically just a EMC wave shaper. alex From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 21 21:57:10 1998 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:57:10 -0500 Subject: Using PLC? Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:01:20 -0500 > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: Scott Flanagan > Subject: Re: Using PLC? > Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu jan 15 1998 EDN article on USB said only sustained rates of 6 Mbps which is same as a ECP parallel port. I would check out FireWire. Alex > I checked out Cypress Semiconductor's homepage (http://www.cypress.com/) > and I wondered do you really have to order their 400 something dollar > developer's kit? If not how do you program it without it? Could you > please shed some light on this and please keep me, and the group informed > on your progress. I consulted my friend's father who is an EE on using a > PLC and he recommended using a USB. I am thinking about using a USB to > make a digital distriburtless ignitoin system, kind of like the one made by > the GA Tech FSAE team. And then progress on to the tougher task of > controlling the fuel injection. Let me know of anything that can help me, > thanks a lot. I can't wait until college and the FSAE program, it sounds > like such a great program. > > -Scott Flanagan (flanagan at worldnet.att.net) > > > >I'm about to make an honest attempt at using an USB (Universal > >Serial Bus) microcontroller manufactured by Cypress Semiconductor. > >It may turn out to have insufficient resources to do the job, but hey, > >for a buck a part I can't lose much sleep over it if it doesn't work out. > > > >My prototype that I coded for a laptop PC proved to me where the > >critical spots are and how much resolution is needed to do a good > >job. Hopefully timing doesn't leave me DIW. I'll likely have to throw > >some hardware at the problem since the uC may have a rough time > >with simultaneous events. We'll see... > > > >I'll let you know more as things develop if anyone is interested. > > > >Matt Watts > >University of Utah > >Formula SAE Racing > >_________________ > > From riddler at cyberus.ca Wed Jan 21 22:01:56 1998 From: riddler at cyberus.ca (Riddler) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:01:56 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! Message-ID: Hi , my name is Riddler (nickname). For those who want to know why i called myself Riddler,. it's because I always ask too much question. And oh ya,. sometimes I talk in riddle. That's why my friends call me Riddler,... Anyway,.. Here's my first question....? Why doe's almost everybody use the 68hc11 ,. 68hc16 microcontroller,. and almost nobody use MCS51 compatible(8031,.32,.51.,52) micro ? Thanks and hope to have a good time here ! Bye Bye Riddler _________________________________ Tech. Digital Equipement Corp. From whonea at codenet.net Wed Jan 21 23:19:29 1998 From: whonea at codenet.net (Will Honea) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:19:29 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! Message-ID: ** Reply to note from Riddler Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:01:23 -0500 > Why doe's almost everybody use the 68hc11 ,. 68hc16 microcontroller,. and almost > nobody use MCS51 compatible(8031,.32,.51.,52) micro ? Speed, speed, speed. (and no Harvard Archetecture to fight) Will Honea whonea at codenet.net From orin at wolfenet.com Thu Jan 22 01:24:44 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:24:44 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! Message-ID: > Why doe's almost everybody use the 68hc11 ,. 68hc16 microcontroller,. > and almost nobody use MCS51 compatible(8031,.32,.51.,52) micro ? Some Bosch Motronic use 8051 variants. Why 68HC11? Because it's easier to program. I think the 8051 FAQ describes the 8051 as bizarre... I certainly wouldn't choose it. Orin. From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Thu Jan 22 02:53:01 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:53:01 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! Message-ID: >Why doe's almost everybody use the 68hc11 ,. 68hc16 microcontroller,. >and almost nobody use MCS51 compatible(8031,.32,.51.,52) micro ? Howdy Riddler. 1. Well documented 2. Speed 3. Ongoing Support from Motorola 4. You can almost build an ECM on the training platform Now that things are getting interesting in the semiconductor field, Harris, NatSemi and Intel all have automotive specific semiconductors. YOu might want to check out the EFI332 website... they are using the 32 bit version of the 68HC series embedded processers, certainly a more robust choice. Welcome to the list ! Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From EAXMJHI at ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk Thu Jan 22 04:23:05 1998 From: EAXMJHI at ean2.mecheng.nottingham.ac.uk (Martin Hill) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:23:05 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! Message-ID: > >Why doe's almost everybody use the 68hc11 ,. 68hc16 microcontroller,. > >and almost nobody use MCS51 compatible(8031,.32,.51.,52) micro ? > Well, I'm using the 167 from seimens, it seems to be better than both of the others, previously I have used the 8051 and derivatives, and for efi, the 68332 from motorola, this had a new time processing unit. The 167 still beats it hands down though. Martin From jalbury at tpgi.com.au Thu Jan 22 07:45:47 1998 From: jalbury at tpgi.com.au (Justin Albury) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 02:45:47 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: Hi all do any of you fine fokes out in automotive cyber workshops know of injector available to inject LPG as a vapour rather than a liquid?? A mob in Sydney (Australia) called Gas Parts are working on this but still not available to the public.....or the trade for that matter.. any help would be tops! Justin From neil.poersch at mts.mb.ca Thu Jan 22 09:43:15 1998 From: neil.poersch at mts.mb.ca (neil.poersch at mts.mb.ca) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 04:43:15 -0500 Subject: Circuit Specialists Inc. Message-ID: Has anyone had any experience dealing with Circuit Specialists Inc. ? Are their products of reasonable quality? I want to build an O2 meter and use a digital panel meter instead of the usual LED display. Circuit Specialists offer digital panel meters for $10 each while Digikey and KNS are asking $40 - $80 each. At that much of a price differential I have to wonder if there is a major difference in quality also. Comments? TIA Neil From lndshrk at xmission.com Thu Jan 22 10:29:29 1998 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 05:29:29 -0500 Subject: Motronic and 8051 Message-ID: At 10:23 PM 1/21/98 -0800, you wrote: >> Why doe's almost everybody use the 68hc11 ,. 68hc16 microcontroller,. >> and almost nobody use MCS51 compatible(8031,.32,.51.,52) micro ? > >Some Bosch Motronic use 8051 variants. Actually MOST Motronic uses 8051.. Started w/ 1802 Then 8051, 8052, 80515/535, 80517 Then onto MCS-96 (80C196).. The latest (M5.2) uses a chip that doesnt seem to exist, the 87C196KN I say doesn't exist because the the answers you get from Intel when you ask about it.. Jim From zzehnack at stevens-tech.edu Thu Jan 22 11:37:18 1998 From: zzehnack at stevens-tech.edu (Zachary Zehnacker) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:37:18 -0500 Subject: Accell 4-Barrel TBI System Message-ID: We are considering using the Accell 4-Barrel TBI fuel injection setup on our Olds 455. We eventually would like to convert the manifold to port injection and use the same throttle body just for air, but due to lack of time will have to start out with the TBI. Does anyone know anything about this system? Can the computer be used to control the port injection when we switch over once we get the manifold ready? Could the Accel TPI computer control this throttle body? Thanks, Zachary Zehnacker From bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com Thu Jan 22 12:39:56 1998 From: bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com (bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:39:56 -0500 Subject: Circuit Specialists Inc. Message-ID: I've bought them and used them, but not in vehicle applications except I have a LED unit for the sandbuggy. I haven't gone over rough terain with it. I had the K&N uinit with the LED bargraph and never experienced any difficulties. My personal feelings are that the LED units are more rugged and less prone to vibration. I've had one LCD multimeter that rode along in the tool box lose its display. The LED units do take more power to operate. Bob McKnight Phoenix AZ From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 22 12:42:20 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:42:20 -0500 Subject: Edelbrock MPI kit Message-ID: Hi All, A while back I told everyone I was going to have an Edel mpi kit in to do some prom work and that I would give some feedback on what I saw.... This unit was a 94 454 4L80E,,,I did not sell it or install it, but was asked to check it out afterwards,,,,It ran very poorly except when under a load,,(70-100KPA),,I contacted Edelbrock and went through the on hold/transfer crap for almost an hour...finally got through to a programmer,,,,after a few Q & A's he said that the EDEL cam(btw this is the cam that is in their catalog for this app and was recommended, by Edelbrock Tech, to the customer,,evidently he had all the part numbers when he brought the truck to my buddy's shop) that was installed in it was wrong and to put a stock cam in it and it will run fine....I questioned him on the fact that their was an EXTREME amount of timing in the chip, and how could you possibly get, that much timing, with a stock cam, through CARB, and not increase the NOX. There was also a terrible surge on decel at around 3mph and block learn's were all over the place,,,and the engine would shake violently at light throttle....after a few querries I somehow got disconnected(hopefully not on purpose) and decided not to call back and sit on hold..... There is an idle fuel map (0-1600 rpm) that is set to shut off at 3 mph or 5% tps,,and the transition from idle to the main table was never calibrated,,,so I shut off the idle table and remapped the main then turned the idle table way up and remapped it,,,after setting the mph and tps back to stock it ran alot better but still had an occasional surge,,,,I beleive this was caused because they did not correct the injector offset vs battery voltage,,,since the problem was only on decel, I moved the mph, for idle table, to switch at 15 and left the tps alone,,this eliminated the surge,,,,maybe I didn't look hard enough but it appeared they did not change the EGR vs base pulse constant,,,I beleive this was contributing to the shaking at light throttle....Anyway I could not afford to spend a whole lot of time on it since I was doing it for free.... I have been doing alot of mods to Whipplecharged trucks and have thought of putting a intake,heads,hyd roller cam,blower,larger T.B. kit together. And if I ever plan to CARB approve this I think I might have to alter some of the stock code,,,,this is my question,,,,How do I go about finding the type of processor in these computers and where do I buy the assembler package so I can start to reverse engineer the code? (No, I can't do this myself,,,,,yet,,,,but freinds can help) The computers in question are: 1227747 16146299 16168625 16197427 One other question,,,the 8625 was used exclusively in 93 350 4L60E and is called an ECM and the 7427 was used from 94-95 and was called a PCM...in the 350's I can install a 94 chip into a 93 computer and have seen no change in anything(except the 94 chip has a much better trans program) they have the same plugs too....anybody know????anyway enough babbling,,,if anyone can help with the assembler package, I would sure appreciate it... Thanks, -Carl Summers From kv at us.ibm.com Thu Jan 22 13:54:55 1998 From: kv at us.ibm.com (Kevin Vannorsdel) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:54:55 -0500 Subject: Accell 4-Barrel TBI System Message-ID: Where do you find info on this Accell system? Do they make there own TB or use someone elses? ________________________________________________ Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv at us.ibm.com owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu on 01/22/98 10:02:25 AM Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ internet To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ internet cc: Subject: Accell 4-Barrel TBI System We are considering using the Accell 4-Barrel TBI fuel injection setup on our Olds 455. We eventually would like to convert the manifold to port injection and use the same throttle body just for air, but due to lack of time will have to start out with the TBI. Does anyone know anything about this system? Can the computer be used to control the port injection when we switch over once we get the manifold ready? Could the Accel TPI computer control this throttle body? Thanks, Zachary Zehnacker From steve at imes.com Thu Jan 22 14:18:05 1998 From: steve at imes.com (steve ravet) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:18:05 -0500 Subject: Edelbrock MPI kit Message-ID: Carl Summers wrote: > > Hi All, [deleted] > There is an idle fuel map (0-1600 rpm) that is set to shut off at 3 > mph or 5% tps,,and the transition from idle to the main table was never > calibrated,,,so I shut off the idle table and remapped the main then > turned the idle table way up and remapped it,,,after setting the mph and > tps back to stock it ran alot better but still had an occasional > surge,,,,I beleive this was caused because they did not correct the > injector offset vs battery voltage,,,since the problem was only on > decel, I moved the mph, for idle table, to switch at 15 and left the tps > alone,,this eliminated the surge,,,,maybe I didn't look hard enough but > it appeared they did not change the EGR vs base pulse constant,,,I > beleive this was contributing to the shaking at light throttle....Anyway > I could not afford to spend a whole lot of time on it since I was doing > it for free.... One comment here, A TPI chevy that I used to have would shut off the injectors during deceleration if the throttle was completely closed. If you left your foot off and coasted down to idle in say 2nd gear, there was a surge when the injectors came back on. > I have been doing alot of mods to Whipplecharged trucks and have > thought of putting a intake,heads,hyd roller cam,blower,larger T.B. kit > together. And if I ever plan to CARB approve this I think I might have > to alter some of the stock code,,,,this is my question,,,,How do I go > about finding the type of processor in these computers and where do I > buy the assembler package so I can start to reverse engineer the code? > (No, I can't do this myself,,,,,yet,,,,but freinds can help) > The computers in question are: > 1227747 > 16146299 > 16168625 > 16197427 > One other question,,,the 8625 was used exclusively in 93 350 4L60E and > is called an ECM and the 7427 was used from 94-95 and was called a > PCM...in the 350's I can install a 94 chip into a 93 computer and have > seen no change in anything(except the 94 chip has a much better trans > program) they have the same plugs too....anybody know????anyway enough > babbling,,,if anyone can help with the assembler package, I would sure > appreciate it... > Thanks, > -Carl Summers --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve at imes.com From orin at wolfenet.com Thu Jan 22 14:24:19 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:24:19 -0500 Subject: Circuit Specialists Inc. Message-ID: > I want to build an O2 meter and use a digital panel meter instead of the > usual LED display. Circuit Specialists offer digital panel meters for $10 > each while Digikey and KNS are asking $40 - $80 each. At that much of a > price differential I have to wonder if there is a major difference in > quality also. Comments? Are the Circuit Specialists displays backlit? Most of the Digikey ones are as I recall. I'd check how frequently the meter updates. Usually it's only a couple of times a second. You would want a low pass filter with a cutoff of around 1Hz before the meter to produce sensible results! You can see the O2 signal swing back and forth on LED type displays - if that's what you want of course. Orin. From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Thu Jan 22 14:43:52 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:43:52 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: My question is where is the code instructions for the 68mh11 chips used in the GM ECU's? Is it stored by the eeprom chip or on the rom chip? Or someplace else? I have pulled down some of the bin files off the diy-efi ftp site and with the help of a couple of kind hearted people, found a hex convertor and shown some table locations in a bin file. My baseline understanding is that both the code to operate the processor and the lookup tables are both on the eeprom. I understand there is a rom chip on the motherboard. What's in that? There are enough sparkies and computer types around here to help with some of the general questions. But I would like to check one fact I was told. I discoverd when looking at a raw hex file, the last two digits were not part of the code. The mentor informed me it was a checksum for that line. Here's the question. If I change the value of a table, do I also have to manually change the checksum for that line and possible for the entire file? Joe (ME in over his head) Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From zzehnack at stevens-tech.edu Thu Jan 22 14:54:55 1998 From: zzehnack at stevens-tech.edu (Zachary Zehnacker) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:54:55 -0500 Subject: Accell 4-Barrel TBI System Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Kevin Vannorsdel wrote: > Where do you find info on this Accell system? Do they make there own TB or use > someone elses? > http://www.mrgasket.com has an Accel section which has some information on it and has a downloadable version of the Accel engine/fuel management catalog. Zak From Terry_Sare at dell.com Thu Jan 22 15:40:55 1998 From: Terry_Sare at dell.com (Terry Sare) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:40:55 -0500 Subject: Using PLC? Message-ID: Umm, I am confuse here. The USB (Universal Serial Bus) is a point to point, master - slave communication link between a host and endpoint. That endpoint can be anything you wish it to be, mouse, keyboard, speakers, etc. The micro that supports the USB link simply contains a USB serial engine to handle the interface. The serial engine handles two rates: 12mbits/sec high speed or 1.5mbits/sec. Something to consider: 1. The host controls the link, currently Intel is the only real producer of host interface chips as part of their PIC3/4 chipset. Not real easy to use these thing. Software for interfacing to the host is very slim pickens' and documentation of the host interface is poor. There has been ads for other host controllers but most have been "real soon now" (Netchip comes to mind cause I have their eval board). 2. The link can support Isochronous, bulk, control, and interrupt packets. Isochrounous has no error checking but is for audio, video, etc. and a missing bit doesn't matter as much as on time delivery. Transfer rates from the spec indicate 1mbyts/sec. Bulk has smaller size, but has error checking built in. Rate is about 1Mbytes/sec. Control and interrupt are what they say they are and not relevant to moving data. 3. The micro type limits the above mention transfer rates, the Intel part only does about 600Kbytes/sec in bulk xfer, the Cyprus parts are for keyboards and mouse. That is according to their ads :-). The only way to achieve full speed is using an external SIE and a high speed micro (x186,332, etc.). 4. Unless you have software on your Wintel computer to support the USB link, you have no way to use the USB link. Remember, it is point to point, master slave. One USB device cannot talk to the other in peer to peer link. At least, not if you follow the spec. :-). Now, if somebody has some software source for controlling the USB host under DOS, I would love to see it. The USB is a nifty interface but since W9x is required -- doesn't do much good for playing with. Ouch, can you say long winded!!! No, I do not design with USB. I just have to deal with testing the host interface cause all of our computers have them. BTW, skip firewire for now, the spec is not really stable, the parts are not readily available, and what do you need a 100-400+mbit/sec link in a car for :-) umm on second thought don't answer that. And yes, I have seen firewire run and it is quick. Terry Sare terry_sare at dell.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Using PLC? Author: diy_efi-owner at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu at dell_unix Date: 1/21/1998 8:55 PM jan 15 1998 EDN article on USB said only sustained rates of 6 Mbps which is same as a ECP parallel port. I would check out FireWire. Alex snip > > -Scott Flanagan (flanagan at worldnet.att. net) > > > >Matt Watts > >University of Utah > >Formula SAE Racing > >_________________ > > From Tony.Idle at btinternet.com Thu Jan 22 16:00:13 1998 From: Tony.Idle at btinternet.com (Anthony Idle) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:00:13 -0500 Subject: TEST Message-ID: Well I got it! ---------- From: Bernt Frisk To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: TEST Date: 29 December 1997 17:23 I haven?t recieved any mals latley. I?m sending this as a test of my E-Mail adress. Please answer this mail, anyone. ---------- From neil.poersch at mts.mb.ca Thu Jan 22 16:30:00 1998 From: neil.poersch at mts.mb.ca (neil.poersch at mts.mb.ca) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:30:00 -0500 Subject: Circuit Specialists Inc. Message-ID: Orin, > Are the Circuit Specialists displays backlit? Most of the Digikey ones are as I recall.< Circuit Specialists' units are not backlit. Digikey has both types, backlit being more expensive, non-backlit still much, much more than Circuit Specialists. > I'd check how frequently the meter updates. Usually it's only a couple of times a second. You would want a low pass filter with a cutoff of around 1Hz before the meter to produce sensible results! You can see the O2 signal swing back and forth on LED type displays - if that's what you want of course.< The Circuit Specialists unit is 2 - 3 times per second, same as the others. I can add a low pass filter if needed but it may not be. Last summer I used my DVM directly to read the output of the O2 sensor without any problem. The typical LED unit has a resolution of 0.1 volts while I was using my DVM set to 0.01 resolution. I found that extra decimal point of resolution to be very helpful. I used it to set the jetting of the new carbs on my motorcycle and it was MUCH better than doing plug chops. I am always doing something to the motor so I want to free up my DVM and install a permanent readout to watch what is going on. You would be surprised what you see when you monitor on a day-to-day basis as compared to a one-shot tuning effort. Neil From riddler at cyberus.ca Thu Jan 22 18:35:13 1998 From: riddler at cyberus.ca (Riddler) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:35:13 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! *** THANKS !!!! *** Message-ID: Will Honea wrote: > Speed, speed, speed. (and no Harvard Archetecture to fight) Sorry for my lack of knowledge here but what is an Harvard Archetecture !? and why we have to "fight",.. is it so bad !?!? I worked with 68hc11 a little bit with the evaluation board from motorola about 2 years ago. I designed an electronic numerical dash for my car ( on a plywood,..) for my final project. It was ok,. I heard that 68hc11 is faster , better architecture , but somebody told me that 8051 has more interrupt !? I would like to say thanks to EVERYBODY for that first answer ! That was a nice welcome ! Thanks again! Now I'll try to get an 68hc11 to work with,. Is their any good place !? I would like to build a eeprom programer and my own devellopement board. Is it very different ,. programming Motorola type eeprom code,. the way he is separating data somehow !? Thanks in advance ! Riddler From snyder_enterprises at ibm.net Thu Jan 22 19:00:20 1998 From: snyder_enterprises at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:00:20 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: Justin Albury wrote: > > Hi all > > do any of you fine fokes out in automotive cyber workshops know of > injector available to inject LPG as a vapour rather than a liquid?? > > A mob in Sydney (Australia) called Gas Parts are working on this but > still not available to the public.....or the trade for that matter.. > > any help would be tops! > > Justin Check out GFI Control Systems in Kitchener Ont. 519-576-4270 -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From orin at wolfenet.com Thu Jan 22 19:20:31 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:20:31 -0500 Subject: Circuit Specialists Inc. Message-ID: > Circuit Specialists' units are not backlit. Digikey has both types, > backlit being more expensive, non-backlit still much, much more than > Circuit Specialists. Actually, that's typical. I got a backlit 16x1 LCD display locally for $8 (surplus), >$40 at DigiKey... same part! > > > I'd check how frequently the meter updates. Usually it's only a couple > of times a second. You would want a low pass filter with a cutoff of > around 1Hz before the meter to produce sensible results! You can see > the O2 signal swing back and forth on LED type displays - if that's what > you want of course.< > The Circuit Specialists unit is 2 - 3 times per second, same as the others. > I can add a low pass filter if needed but it may not be. Last summer I > used my DVM directly to read the output of the O2 sensor without any > problem. The typical LED unit has a resolution of 0.1 volts while I was > using my DVM set to 0.01 resolution. I found that extra decimal point of > resolution to be very helpful. I used it to set the jetting of the new > carbs on my motorcycle and it was MUCH better than doing plug chops. I am In your case, the reading isn't going to be fluctuating like the closed loop systems, so I'd guess you wouldn't want any filtering. Orin. From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 22 23:41:42 1998 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:41:42 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:15:49 +1100 > From: Justin Albury > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Vapour Injected LPG > Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Hi all > > do any of you fine fokes out in automotive cyber workshops know of > injector available to inject LPG as a vapour rather than a liquid?? > > A mob in Sydney (Australia) called Gas Parts are working on this but > still not available to the public.....or the trade for that matter.. > > any help would be tops! > > Justin > > check walboro alex From gcouger at ionet.net Thu Jan 22 23:59:44 1998 From: gcouger at ionet.net (Gordon Couger) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:59:44 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! *** THANKS !!!! *** Message-ID: >Will Honea wrote: >Sorry for my lack of knowledge here but what is an Harvard Archetecture >!? >and why we have to "fight",.. is it so bad !?!? > >I worked with 68hc11 a little bit with the evaluation board from >motorola about 2 years ago. I designed an electronic numerical dash >for my car ( on a plywood,..) for my final project. It was ok,. > >I heard that 68hc11 is faster , better architecture , but somebody >told me that 8051 has more interrupt !? I am partial to a 68HC11 I have written code for it for a lot of years. IMO it is better suited to engine controllers than an 8051. It has four lines that work beautifully for injector control and 7 hardware interrupts and a software interrupt. It was designed to be an engine controller. Support from Motorola, the net and freely available software are all better for the 68HC11 than Intel products. You can buy a board from New Micros for $80 bucks that comes with FORTH, small c and basic. I have seen some pretty decent project written in small c. I have used a lot of compilers and I would spend another $100 for a better compiler. I use Dunfield's compiler. I would also recommend INTORL. If you are a student you can get an educational version for $140.00. The commercial version is $1,500. Either one will do the job for any project that a 68HC11 can do. Gordon From whonea at codenet.net Fri Jan 23 00:28:54 1998 From: whonea at codenet.net (Will Honea) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:28:54 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! *** THANKS !!!! *** Message-ID: ** Reply to note from Riddler Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:34:43 -0500 > Sorry for my lack of knowledge here but what is an Harvard Archetecture !? and why we have to > "fight",.. is it so bad !?!? > Harvard Arch. machines separate data and program memory - the 8051 is a pain to work with from that standpoint. It also has a very limited stack which is not real good in multi-input systems. Speed-wise, the 68HCxx series runs rings around it. There is also a bit of bias here: I've never been impressed (positively, at least) by Intel's power consumption/disapation nor by their electrical ruggedness, at least when compared to Motorola or NSC with their extensive MIL lines. Will Honea whonea at codenet.net From chiasson at hutchtel.net Fri Jan 23 08:51:42 1998 From: chiasson at hutchtel.net (Joe Chiasson) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:51:42 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: > From: Justin Albury > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Vapour Injected LPG > Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 3:15 PM > > Hi all > > do any of you fine fokes out in automotive cyber workshops know of > injector available to inject LPG as a vapour rather than a liquid?? > > A mob in Sydney (Australia) called Gas Parts are working on this but > still not available to the public.....or the trade for that matter.. > > any help would be tops! > > Justin Depending on the size of engine you are using if you can get a hold of chrysler natural gas injectors they will work. Put injectors from the 5.2L NG on a 3.3L, it was a little weak when you stomped on it (injectors just could not pass enough fuel when needed), however under normal driving conditions the injectors worked fine. (Mind you I was useing the 3.3L natural gas computer, not the gasoline.) Servojet makes an injector can't remeber what for but I think it ethanol or alcohol or something like that, they work good with vapour propane injection if you have your own controller to program the maps. GFI has a "vapour injection" system, don't know if they would split it up and sell you any of the parts, if they have any parts. (Sort of having a system reliability problem right now. Walboro has a couple of injectors yet I don't beleive any are suited for vapour propane injection. GFI has a compuvalve system with some solenoids and injectors for trimming, which typically is injected into the air horn yet I have seen it set up as a continnous injection system. The vehicle I saw this on had absolutely no balls however. Now depending on what your needs are?? Do you know if these guys in Sydney (Gas Parts??) working on the vapour injector have any afiliation with Docklands Science Park (who have a liquid system based on a siemens dekka II bottom feed injector). j. From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Fri Jan 23 09:37:50 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 04:37:50 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: I don't understand why expanding lpg to a gas before injecting it would give big advantages. In the elevated temperatures of a working engine, even at high engine speeds , by the time the spark plug fires during the compression storke, lpg injected as a liguid would be completely changed to a gas. I haven't done a thermal analysis of this situation, but I think it's a good quess. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us Fri Jan 23 11:25:33 1998 From: amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us (amcknig at creighteld.k12.az.us) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:25:33 -0500 Subject: Circuit Specialists Inc. Message-ID: orin What are you using for a voltage divider network on the O2 sensor? Bob McKnight Phoenix AZ From sganz at wgn.net Fri Jan 23 11:42:16 1998 From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:42:16 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! Message-ID: The 68hc11 and friends are less strange then 80XX series. Nothing really wrong with them, just a bit on the odd (not bad, just odd) side from the instruction set and arcitecture stand point. The HC11' have a nice set of added on subsystems on the CPU, and are pretty easy to get going. This is my 2 cents. Sandy At 10:01 PM 1/21/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hi , my name is Riddler (nickname). For those who want to know why >i called myself Riddler,. it's because I always ask too much question. >And oh ya,. sometimes I talk in riddle. That's why my friends call me >Riddler,... Anyway,.. > >Here's my first question....? > >Why doe's almost everybody use the 68hc11 ,. 68hc16 microcontroller,. >and almost nobody use MCS51 compatible(8031,.32,.51.,52) micro ? > >Thanks and hope to have a good time here ! > >Bye Bye >Riddler >_________________________________ >Tech. Digital Equipement Corp. > > From bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com Fri Jan 23 11:51:45 1998 From: bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com (bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:51:45 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: Joe I think trying to inject liquid would be interesting. particularly with direct injection. The problem I have been told is that butane, propane are fantastic refrigerants (except they burn) and freeze everything around when they change state. Hence the big ole water heated vaporizers. Maybe somebody makes some cryogenic injectors. Bob McKnight Phoenix az From tony.cooper at virgin.net Fri Jan 23 12:04:31 1998 From: tony.cooper at virgin.net (Tony Cooper) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:04:31 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: Joe Boucher wrote: > > > I haven't done a thermal analysis of this situation, but I think it's a > good quess. > > Joe Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban Yep, you are dead right. Even on a cold engine the LPG will be gaseous by the time you set fire to it.... -- Sent By Tony Cooper. email: tony.cooper at virgin.net Allow at least 10 working minutes for reply. ;) From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 23 12:05:15 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:05:15 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: Joe Boucher wrote: > > My question is where is the code instructions for the 68mh11 chips used > in the GM ECU's? Is it stored by the eeprom chip or on the rom chip? > Or someplace else? > > I have pulled down some of the bin files off the diy-efi ftp site and > with the help of a couple of kind hearted people, found a hex convertor > and shown some table locations in a bin file. My baseline understanding > is that both the code to operate the processor and the lookup tables are > both on the eeprom. I understand there is a rom chip on the > motherboard. What's in that? > > There are enough sparkies and computer types around here to help with > some of the general questions. But I would like to check one fact I was > told. I discoverd when looking at a raw hex file, the last two digits > were not part of the code. The mentor informed me it was a checksum for > that line. Here's the question. If I change the value of a table, do I > also have to manually change the checksum for that line and possible for > the entire file? > > Joe (ME in over his head) Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban Joe, I have been told the 747 computer uses a 6809 processor, and the newer stuff uses the 68hc11,,,I don't know this to be true,,,,what is this 68mh11 you were referring to and if it is the specific gm processor does anyone have an assembly program for it????And,,,does anyone have an assembly program for the 6809 processor,,,,any help is appreciated.... As for checksums,,if you change anything in the lookup tables the checksum for that has to be corrected and are in various spots depending on the prom...as for the checksum for the code I don't know if there is one but am hoping to understand how to unassemble the code soon..(btw which is usually that huge lump of info at the end of the bin file, although I have seen additions to the code in other places) If any of the code gurus on board would please lend a hand finding a source to acquire the assembly stuff I would sure appreciate it..Thanks, -Carl Summers (snorkling about ten feet from the surface) From sleonard at rocketmail.com Fri Jan 23 12:30:11 1998 From: sleonard at rocketmail.com (Steve Leonard) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:30:11 -0500 Subject: Injector Advice Message-ID: EFIers This is a basic question for ya. We are having a debate about about the injection sequence of our KTM single. I want to use sequential injection, with two injectors, phasing the second injector as turbo boost increases. The other camp wants to use batch-fire, both injectors firing at the same time. They contend that the injectors will only need to be half the size of the sequential set-up, resulting in better injector sesolution as low flow. Any advice???????????? _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From gt6 at beachscene.com Fri Jan 23 12:37:24 1998 From: gt6 at beachscene.com (gt bradley) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:37:24 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: Joe Boucher wrote: > I don't understand why expanding lpg to a gas before injecting it would > give big advantages. In the elevated temperatures of a working engine, > even at high engine speeds , by the time the spark plug fires during the > compression storke, lpg injected as a liguid would be completely changed > to a gas. > > I haven't done a thermal analysis of this situation, but I think it's a > good quess. > > Joe Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban I agree, (but I'm not an expert), It seems that expanding the lpg to vapor would just displace more air, and as a liquid it would perform some inter-cooling as it went through the phase change. GT '72 914-6 From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Fri Jan 23 13:25:11 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:25:11 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com wrote: > > Joe > > I think trying to inject liquid would be interesting. particularly > with direct injection. The problem I have been told is that butane, > propane are fantastic refrigerants (except they burn) and freeze > everything around when they change state. Hence the big ole water > heated vaporizers. Maybe somebody makes some cryogenic injectors. > > Bob McKnight > Phoenix > az Let me restate I am not an expert on this subject. I agree when the lpg vaporizes, the temperature of the gas really drops. I know someone who converted a '93 Chevy truck. He is not a technical type, but he lead me to believe the conversion used his original injectors and just piped the lpg thru the fuel rail instead of gasoline. So what happens at the pressure regulator? I may have to look into this to satisfy my curiosity. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Fri Jan 23 13:33:41 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:33:41 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: Ooops. That was supposed to be 68hc11. I found the manual for the 68hc11 on the Motorola home page. I understand the actual chip in the GM ECU is slightly different from the 68hc11. Is the 6809 processor a Motorola product? IF not where could I find an instruction set or documentation? Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From orin at wolfenet.com Fri Jan 23 13:56:31 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:56:31 -0500 Subject: Circuit Specialists Inc. Message-ID: > What are you using for a voltage divider network on the O2 sensor? I take the sensor into thru a 1Mohm resistor to the inputs of two LM3914s. For low pass filtering, I add a .1 uF cap to ground after the resistor. The LM3914 voltage dividers are connected in series with a 499 ohm resistor in parallel with each to minimise any variance between the two chips. I drive the dividers from one of the voltage refs via a 1k trimpot (actually only 500 ohm trimpot is required, the value tends to be around 250 ohm). The other voltage ref goes to a 2k trimpot to ground to set the relative brightness of the LEDs between the two LM3914s. Give it 5V, 20 LEDs and that's about it. Orin. From jalbury at tpgi.com.au Fri Jan 23 14:13:15 1998 From: jalbury at tpgi.com.au (Justin Albury) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:13:15 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: Joe Boucher wrote: > > I don't understand why expanding lpg to a gas before injecting it would > give big advantages. In the elevated temperatures of a working engine, > even at high engine speeds , by the time the spark plug fires during the > compression storke, lpg injected as a liguid would be completely changed > to a gas. > > I haven't done a thermal analysis of this situation, but I think it's a > good quess. > > Joe Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban cost factor! think about it.... both my cars are delco efi & lpg......with vapour lpg i dont need a fuel pump in the lpg cylinder and im not running high line pressures in the engine bay. so apart from that i love the thought of liquid injection but the tanks with pumps in em are very$$$$$$...that is unless you guys in the states run a different system ....say take the lpg into the engine bay at tank pressure then regulate it to a lower pressure which even when the tank is low it will still give good pressure then inject it .......all i seem to have happen is injectors freezing .......ummm i spose you get that with lpg eh!??? any thoughts?? Justin From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Fri Jan 23 14:50:12 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:50:12 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: >Is the 6809 processor a Motorola product? IF not where could I find an >instruction set or documentation? Yes, it is. Also, your local Radio Shack might still have assembler manuals for their "Color Computer" from the late 80's, which gives all the instructions for that chip. Also "Microprocessor Instruction Sets", by Ian something, has the 6809, 6502, 8080, Z80, and a few others. This book is a dinosaur, you'll have to see if your library has it... try a college library, old books like this tend to rot on the shelves. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From orin at wolfenet.com Fri Jan 23 16:01:34 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:01:34 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: > >Is the 6809 processor a Motorola product? IF not where could I find an > >instruction set or documentation? > Yes, it is. Also, your local Radio Shack might still have assembler > manuals for their "Color Computer" from the late 80's, which gives all the > instructions for that chip. I have a copy of "6809 Assembly language programming" and may still have a copy of the 6809 cookbook. I'm pretty sure the asxxxx freeware assemblers include the 6809. For a disassembler, IDA Pro handles it (along with just about every microprocessor you can think of), but you can probably find one free by searching the web. Orin. From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Fri Jan 23 22:27:39 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:27:39 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: Orin Eman wrote: > > > >Is the 6809 processor a Motorola product? IF not where could I find an > > >instruction set or documentation? > > > Yes, it is. Also, your local Radio Shack might still have assembler > > manuals for their "Color Computer" from the late 80's, which gives all the > > instructions for that chip. > > I have a copy of "6809 Assembly language programming" and may still > have a copy of the 6809 cookbook. I'm pretty sure the asxxxx freeware > assemblers include the 6809. > > For a disassembler, IDA Pro handles it (along with just about every > microprocessor you can think of), but you can probably find one free > by searching the web. > > Orin. I did, I think. I did a search using hotbot and the phrase " microprocessor instruction set 6809 and found a bunch of stuff. I'm going to have to do this at home again. Can't spend that much time at work digging for this stuff. There is a large computer oriented swap meet in downtown Dallas the first Saturday of each month. I might find some of these books at that event. My accumulating these books and other web info is analogous to handing an uneducated tribesman a set of micrometers and asking to figure out if that crankshaft is out of spec. Gotta start somewhere. Thanks folks, Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From martin at mgass.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 23 22:43:40 1998 From: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk (martin at mgass.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:43:40 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: Carl wrote about checksums : ...Looks to me like most data areas and even the code is protected by checksums ? ..Sounds right to me....some time ago I worked on a mil project with an ex. Delco guy and he wanted to checksum code, data,.. everything ! Martin ---------------------------------------------------------- martin at mgass.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------- From martin at mgass.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 23 22:49:23 1998 From: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk (martin at mgass.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:49:23 -0500 Subject: Altering ECU Code/Data - GM16 pin OBD-II Message-ID: I want to know how to alter parameters on this complicated (surface mount EEPROM type) ECU. (SimTec) So far I have found out the following :. - Looks like Diacom is for monitoring only. - Query still in with CarComp Inc. -I know that Superchips know how to re-program via the OBD-II interface (which by the way I think is the ISO9141-2 and not SAEJ1850 interface 'cos only pins 3 thro 7, 12 and 16 have physical contacts)...Note the SuperTuner.2001 looks interesting. - Anybody else know how to do it ?. - I guess my real quest is how to get a 1996 GM2litre 16V to run fully open loop for performance reasons only. The CAT can be put back when returned to road use. In the UK Group N ECU's were available (189bhp) for pre-CAT early (non-EcoTech) 16V units, but not for later ones. Martin ---------------------------------------------------------- martin at mgass.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------- From martin at mgass.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 23 22:55:26 1998 From: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk (martin at mgass.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:55:26 -0500 Subject: GM 16Pin OBD-II Tip Message-ID: You can get the vehicle to flash its check engine stored codes on the fascia light by shorting pins 4 and 6 in the 16Pin OBD-II connector whilst the ignition(not engine) is on. Also does anybody know of, or use an IRC chatline to discuss EFI/ECU issues ? Martin ---------------------------------------------------------- martin at mgass.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------- From ezwingman at snet.net Sat Jan 24 00:15:16 1998 From: ezwingman at snet.net (Edward Zwingman) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:15:16 -0500 Subject: leaving this group Message-ID: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD2832.CACC3BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How do I stop getting mail from this group ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD2832.CACC3BA0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgUAAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAEAIAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZp MzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAIB918BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QC AAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18AAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAAul4 AQSAAQATAAAAbGVhdmluZyB0aGlzIGdyb3VwAAsHAQWAAwAOAAAAzgcBABcAEwAKACEABQAwAQEg gAMADgAAAM4HAQAXABMACQAeAAUALAEBCYABACEAAABCQzkyRThGQjVCMjhCRDExQTNGNjFFNThD QkZCQTUwRQCJBwEDkAYA7AcAACIAAAALAAIAAQAAAAsAIwABAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAQAAAAMA LgAAAAAAAgExAAEAAADEAAAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAEwAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA TVNQU1QuRExMAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTkRPV1NcbWFpbGJveC5wc3QAGAAA AAAAAADumG+mmj/REbLzREVTVAAAooAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAO6Yb6aaP9ERsvNERVNUAADCgAAA EAAAALyS6PtbKL0Ro/YeWMv7pQ4TAAAAbGVhdmluZyB0aGlzIGdyb3VwAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AID2 3HxcKL0BHgBwAAEAAAATAAAAbGVhdmluZyB0aGlzIGdyb3VwAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvShcfF9Q s4xilCUR0bL1moElS1oVAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAEwAAAGV6d2luZ21h bkBzbmV0Lm5ldAAAAwAGED+Rp6ADAAcQIgAAAB4ACBABAAAAIwAAAEhPV0RPSVNUT1BHRVRUSU5H TUFJTEZST01USElTR1JPVVAAAAIBCRABAAAAUAQAAEwEAACoCgAATFpGdfUfMvgDAAoAcmNwZzEy NXIyDGBjMQMwAQcLYG6RDhAwMzMPFmZlD5JPAfcCpANjAgBjaArAc4RldALRcHJxMgAAkioKoW5v ElAgMAHQhQHQNg+gMDUwNBQh8wHQFBA0fQdtAoMAUAPU+xH/EwtiE+EUUBOyGPQU0K8HEwKAApEI 5jsJbzAa3/plDjA1HAodIRzfHekb9P8eEhx/IE8gDR+PHb8cDxBg/DI4Jdom8SavJ7kb9CfivyZP Kh8p3SlfJ48rVDkOUB8upDABKCMwAAKCc3R56mwHkGgJ4HQAABNQA/BQZGN0bAqxXDJYYZhkanUx cAUQZ2gFQjsWMgwBYwnAMmADMHNufGV4FzAHsAWwAMACc3OxAFBzYjIUUDFgYRPw9FxrCeBwC5Ay PzKjCGDrMpALgGUxoHY5YAFAM5u/DDA0ZCgAN0AEoAuAZyfx6TTmYmEXEGQCIDWgNUbnMdAzkDuR IDExMw5QNp//N684vwBROfwAoDRuPH89hv8xJA/APo8/n0CvDlA570MP20QfPbMzAoITEGM2YEuh kzOQPbB0aTmQIEQBEKhhdWwFQFAKwGEJwOBhcGggRgIhNiQlQOhmaS0PkDgBQDkwUDPrRw8yo2IL IHIJUFJSFqDZUlJ3NCVBFwBwAdBNcn8zv0qfS6ZP0E6QBRACMC1DTzADYTogVG9XsFModWJqBZB0 V7BEYeh0ZTo2JDZP/1EPUh//Uy9UOTHAPaMOIUuhOrYOUJtVb1Z+UjmBFwEgSD2R+wSQNiQ3WW9a f1uPXJ05Dy9dvw+QaXAI0GIKsHQ4/0n6D1RGEF+/YMZqAGHQC1C8eS9PQFywCxFiRXM2JP8oAGM/ ZE9lX1yvVE9rX2xv7211V9JXdFipOW+/Mz8DMB1pszlzn3SveqBEb2P+dQeAAjAF0E8AGgF40ngw 93hwcVEBgG5YMABgCfBNoO99AAIBNeBeUmUA8H0AMYCScB6AXHYIkHdrC4B+ZGtAgKIE8AdAEGGA hHp+aw5QDgBxIj2CgoUCEG9vBUIXIRLyWMBtC1FYwCBQQzpcXFcAb07hbW9PMAMQB5CFME0N4ANg c3JvAYAgTwEgDeB/8FythuZFAMADEC5LcHR90G8XEHhwNSFncngBQH8Bbu8x0BrwiIRONGMDIBLz AID5BZBsdkGhRtAOcDXgixL/AZAAIIuigPF9QQHBixEW4J8PcAAARtAM0AGQIC4aEv+LCIJxi9FO cHjAjD+NT45fvw/ARtAFgY//kQ+SH2xrQN1G0GyPv5R/lYUpjowlQMeTX5g/lXRiICgCkZlf/4tT WVCXD5vPnN+d74uAYxD/nzKMD6Cfoa+OjCgAnz+kv/+lz6bfi4B4AKO/qU+qX6tknwr5AzB4L3k/ es17SLEQIiBLcCBJIDFwb3C8IGcXIE3QPdGH8iADUjggdGgEALTwA2B1cBMKhRoQAAC3cAMAEBAA AAAAAwAREAAAAAADAIAQ/////0AABzBAOJxXXCi9AUAACDBAOJxXXCi9AQsAAIAIIAYAAAAAAMAA AAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwACgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUAAAAAAAADAAWACCAG AAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAAtw0AAB4AJYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAA BAAAADguMAADACaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsAL4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAwgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADADKACCAGAAAA AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4AQYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAA AAAAAAAeAEKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBDgAggBgAAAAAA wAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAADAA00/TcAAPkf ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD2832.CACC3BA0-- From terryk at foothill.net Sat Jan 24 01:46:55 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:46:55 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! Message-ID: They both work, and if you are familar with one more, fine. I can make an Intel do the same thing, but I would have to approach some of it somewhat differently. The 809x series would work fine. But GM chose the Mot 68xx, so here we are. TK -----Original Message----- From: Sandy To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, January 23, 1998 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Hi everybody., new to this group ! >The 68hc11 and friends are less strange then 80XX series. Nothing really >wrong with them, just a bit on the odd (not bad, just odd) side from the >instruction set and arcitecture stand point. The HC11' have a nice set of >added on subsystems on the CPU, and are pretty easy to get going. > >This is my 2 cents. > >Sandy > >At 10:01 PM 1/21/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Hi , my name is Riddler (nickname). For those who want to know why >>i called myself Riddler,. it's because I always ask too much question. >>And oh ya,. sometimes I talk in riddle. That's why my friends call me >>Riddler,... Anyway,.. >> >>Here's my first question....? >> >>Why doe's almost everybody use the 68hc11 ,. 68hc16 microcontroller,. >>and almost nobody use MCS51 compatible(8031,.32,.51.,52) micro ? >> >>Thanks and hope to have a good time here ! >> >>Bye Bye >>Riddler >>_________________________________ >>Tech. Digital Equipement Corp. >> >> > From clsnyde at ibm.net Sat Jan 24 03:21:56 1998 From: clsnyde at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:21:56 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: Joe Boucher wrote: > > Orin Eman wrote: > > > > > >Is the 6809 processor a Motorola product? IF not where could I find an > > > >instruction set or documentation? > > > > > Yes, it is. Also, your local Radio Shack might still have assembler > > > manuals for their "Color Computer" from the late 80's, which gives all the > > > instructions for that chip. > > > > I have a copy of "6809 Assembly language programming" and may still > > have a copy of the 6809 cookbook. I'm pretty sure the asxxxx freeware > > assemblers include the 6809. > > > > For a disassembler, IDA Pro handles it (along with just about every > > microprocessor you can think of), but you can probably find one free > > by searching the web. > > > > Orin. > > I did, I think. I did a search using hotbot and the phrase " > microprocessor instruction set 6809 and found a bunch of stuff. I'm > going to have to do this at home again. Can't spend that much time at > work digging for this stuff. > > There is a large computer oriented swap meet in downtown Dallas the > first Saturday of each month. I might find some of these books at that > event. > > My accumulating these books and other web info is analogous to handing > an uneducated tribesman a set of micrometers and asking to figure out if > that crankshaft is out of spec. Gotta start somewhere. > > Thanks folks, > > Joe Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban I've got the complete edt-asm , OS9 and C stuff for the 6809 Color Computer, including the computer, disk drives, E-Prom burner, etc all in a box (or couple boxes) in storage somewhere here in Waterloo Ontario if someone's interested. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From ludis at netcom.com Sat Jan 24 09:50:20 1998 From: ludis at netcom.com (Ludis Langens) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 04:50:20 -0500 Subject: C3 ECM ROM dumping using a capacitor Message-ID: I've uploaded three short EPROM images to the efi332/diy-efi ftp directory at ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/ with the names Spit6870.S19, Spit7148.S19, and Spit7747.S19. They are for use in the 1226870 ('85 TPI and '85+ MPFI), 1227148 (Grand National and 3.8 SFI), and 1227747 (truck TBI) ECM's. When burned into a 2732 EPROM, which is then plugged into an ECM, they _should_ dump out the ECM's 8K of built-in ROM. (I don't have any of these ECM's to actually test them.) The dumping is at 9600 baud, 8-N-1 (actually 8-N-2), via the IAC driver. To convert the 0 to 12 volt IAC drive signal to an RS-232 voltage range, a series capacitor of about 1 uF is needed. If you are using an electrolytic cap, connect the positive lead to the ECM's "IAC A Lo" output (this should be pin C6 on the 32 pin connector.) Connect the negative lead to your computer's serial port's RxD line. (Also provide a ground connection from the ECM to your computer.) To view/capture the ROM dump, connect the ECM to your computer, run a terminal emulator on your computer (9600 baud, 8-N-1), and apply juice to the ECM. Within a tenth of a second, the EPROM should have taken over the ECM and started the dump. In case you miss the beginning, the ROM is dumped over and over until you shut the ECM off. If nothing happens (or you get garbage) try the other three IAC outputs - GM may have switched things around. These dumping EPROMs are meant for use on the bench, but it should be possible to dump an ECM while it is still in a vehicle. But please, don't try running the engine during the dump. Also, unhook the IAC - 9600 baud and the IAC don't go together. All three image files are in Motorola S19 hex format. The ROM is also dumped using this format. The image files are "ORGed" at the address at which the EPROM appears in the ECM's memory map. When burning an EPROM, you'll need to specify an address offset of $3000 or $D000. I'm interested to hear of the success or failure that anyone has with these ROM dumpers. unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; Ludis Langens return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + ludis at netcom.com (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} From chiasson at hutchtel.net Sat Jan 24 14:07:18 1998 From: chiasson at hutchtel.net (Joe Chiasson) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:07:18 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: Joe, Tony, GT and Justin by my opinion you are all correct. It would be more advantageous to inject as a liquid. For the most part at normal operating temperatures the lp would all vapourize in the cylinder before the spark. The deal is since this expansion is happening in the cylinder it displaces more air than if vapourizing before injecting. Also the sudden expansion in the cylinder does significantly reduce the temperature. On a mass flow basis when compared to gasoline injecting liquid into the cylinder will net you 5-10% more horse power, and vapour injection will loose 10-15% horse power. From a cost factor liquid is a lot more expensive because of a need for a pump wether it be internal to the cylinder or external (internal seems to work a lot better). Without a pump the lp suddenly expands to vapour at the tip of the injector freeezing it, with a pump depending on the spray patern of the injector you can get a nice pencil stream of liquid as it gradually expands to vapour. Joe from my experience I'm gonna have to say that this guy in his checy may have had the old injector(s) and fuel rail present but he was running the engine on vapour propane through the air horn (if this was an actual conversion or was he just playing around with lp I may have misinterpreted your mail). If however he has injecting liquid through the stock gasoline rail and injector(s) I would have to question how many vapour bubbles were present in the fuel after passing through the fuel rail regulator, I would have to question what temperature he was doing this at, and have to question after he shut it off how long did he have to sit before he could get the thing started again? ---------- > From: Justin Albury > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Vapour Injected LPG > Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 5:37 PM > > Joe Boucher wrote: > > > > I don't understand why expanding lpg to a gas before injecting it would > > give big advantages. In the elevated temperatures of a working engine, > > even at high engine speeds , by the time the spark plug fires during the > > compression storke, lpg injected as a liguid would be completely changed > > to a gas. > > > > I haven't done a thermal analysis of this situation, but I think it's a > > good quess. > > > > Joe Boucher > > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban > > > cost factor! > > think about it.... both my cars are delco efi & lpg......with vapour lpg > i dont need a fuel pump in the lpg cylinder and im not running high line > pressures in the engine bay. so apart from that i love the thought of > liquid injection but the tanks with pumps in em are very$$$$$$...that is > unless you guys in the states run a different system ....say take the > lpg into the engine bay at tank pressure then regulate it to a lower > pressure which even when the tank is low it will still give good > pressure then inject it .......all i seem to have happen is injectors > freezing .......ummm i spose you get that with lpg eh!??? > > any thoughts?? > > Justin From chiasson at hutchtel.net Sat Jan 24 14:31:30 1998 From: chiasson at hutchtel.net (Joe Chiasson) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:31:30 -0500 Subject: Chrysler 8.0L V-10 for the RAM Message-ID: 1> Does any body know the flow rates static and dynamic for the 8.0L V-10 pick-up truck engine. Wondering how similar the injectors ar to the 5.9L V-8 ( I realize there is a difference in displacement/cylinder.) 2> Not really dyi related but does anybody know the reliabilty of the 8.0L block. Ran compression and leakdowns on one that was mainly used to tow a horse trailer, truck still feals great yet there was up to 70% leakdown in multiple cylinders and less than 15% in others (truck had 21000 miles). Checked out another with 27000 miles and it also had multiple cylinders with leakdown above 65%. Checked out a 1998 with 500 miles and all the compression and leakdowns were similar and respectable. Did the tests multiple times hot/cold/rockers off etc still came up with the same results. To the question - does anybody know if there is a serious problem with cylinder head warpage on this engine????? this is the only thing I can equate this phenomenon to. does anybody have any other suggestions of what may be causing this???? thanks joe From rwhughe at hal-pc.org Sat Jan 24 15:49:31 1998 From: rwhughe at hal-pc.org (Robert W. Hughes) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:49:31 -0500 Subject: GM code location Message-ID: Save your energy hunting for 6809 stuff. It is a Motorola chip but the early GM computers use a 6801 derivative. They are more or less compatible at the source code level but differ internally. The 6801 is a 6800 with extra on-chip resources and a few added instructions. The 68HC11 is more of the same. On the subject of prom image files and checksums, if the file is in S19 format (each line starts with S1) there is a checksum at the end of each line. If a line is edited this checksum must be corrected or the PROM programmer will not accept it. Hex and binary formats contain just the data and hex format is much easier to edit. There is also a checksum in the prom image. If any changes are made this checksum must be corrected or the car will not run. The check engine light will just flash rapidly when the ignition is turned on. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering Houston, Texas rwhughe at hal-pc.org From bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com Sat Jan 24 17:06:39 1998 From: bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com (bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:06:39 -0500 Subject: Circuit Specialists Inc. Message-ID: OLIN THANKS Bob McKnightPhx Az From mfahrion at bb-elec.com Sat Jan 24 17:07:19 1998 From: mfahrion at bb-elec.com (Mike Fahrion) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:07:19 -0500 Subject: Altering ECU Code/Data - GM16 pin OBD-II Message-ID: > I want to know how to alter parameters on this complicated (surface > mount EEPROM type) ECU. (SimTec) > > So far I have found out the following :. > > - Looks like Diacom is for monitoring only. Right, and not OBDII > - Query still in with CarComp Inc. Also monitoring only (to my knowledge), but is OBD-II > -I know that Superchips know how to re-program via the OBD-II > interface (which by the way I think is the ISO9141-2 and not SAEJ1850 > interface 'cos only pins 3 thro 7, 12 and 16 have physical > contacts)...Note the SuperTuner.2001 looks interesting. If its a late model GM w/16 pin connector, its OBDII J1850 VPW. This at least applies to US models. > - Anybody else know how to do it ?. Steve Cole at TTS (The Turbo Shop) in California. They've got a product that allows you to reprogram some parameters through the GM OBDII interface. > - I guess my real quest is how to get a 1996 GM2litre 16V to run fully open loop > for performance reasons only. The CAT can be put back when returned to > road use. In the UK Group N ECU's were available (189bhp) for > pre-CAT early (non-EcoTech) 16V units, but not for later ones. > > Martin Good Luck -mike From Fisystems at aol.com Sat Jan 24 19:58:09 1998 From: Fisystems at aol.com (Fisystems) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:58:09 -0500 Subject: Altering ECU Code/Data - GM16 pin OBD-II Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-24 12:17:56 EST, you write: << Steve Cole at TTS (The Turbo Shop) in California. They've got a product that allows you to reprogram some parameters through the GM OBDII interface. >> Anyone know how to actually get a hold of Steve Cole? I have left several phone massages for him (8 to be exact) over the last three months and he has not returned my call's. I also placed an order with him some months prior and have not received it as well. Is it just me or does he just run his business this way? From yorker at deltanet.com Sun Jan 25 03:32:38 1998 From: yorker at deltanet.com (Robert Yorke) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:32:38 -0500 Subject: Altering ECU Code/Data - GM16 pin OBD-II Message-ID: I too have tried on several occasions to call/contact him; in my case I kept running into someone who evidently works there and whose role is to apparently run interference for him. The response to my query is always "He doesn't handle/do those kinds of jobs......" Based on your experience, as well as mine, it could be that "The Turbo Shop" has all the work it can handle regarding a currently hot product/service and has developed a bit of arrogance because of it...... At 02:54 PM 1/24/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-24 12:17:56 EST, you write: > ><< Steve Cole at TTS (The Turbo Shop) in California. They've got a > product that allows you to reprogram some parameters through the GM > OBDII interface. >> > >Anyone know how to actually get a hold of Steve Cole? I have left several >phone massages for him (8 to be exact) over the last three months and he has >not returned my call's. I also placed an order with him some months prior and >have not received it as well. Is it just me or does he just run his business >this way? > From gt6 at beachscene.com Sun Jan 25 04:42:46 1998 From: gt6 at beachscene.com (gt bradley) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:42:46 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: Joe Chiasson wrote: > Joe, Tony, GT and Justin by my opinion you are all correct. It would be > more advantageous to inject as a liquid. For the most part at normal > operating temperatures the lp would all vapourize in the cylinder before > the spark. You sound like you know what you are talking about. Could you conpare and contrast Liquid propane Gas and Compressed Natural Gas for this type of application? Do they make pulsed (as apposed to continuous) injectors for CNG? GT 914-6 From clsnyde at ibm.net Sun Jan 25 05:28:47 1998 From: clsnyde at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:28:47 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: gt bradley wrote: > > Joe Chiasson wrote: > > > Joe, Tony, GT and Justin by my opinion you are all correct. It would be > > more advantageous to inject as a liquid. For the most part at normal > > operating temperatures the lp would all vapourize in the cylinder before > > the spark. > > You sound like you know what you are talking about. Could you conpare > and contrast Liquid propane Gas and Compressed Natural Gas for this type of > application? Do they make pulsed (as apposed to continuous) injectors for CNG? > > GT > 914-6 CNG is always a gas, never a liquid. Low power density because of this - good for short hauls only. The tank is a lot heavier than a propane tank, and carries less fuel. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From chiasson at hutchtel.net Sun Jan 25 18:42:47 1998 From: chiasson at hutchtel.net (Joe Chiasson) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:42:47 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: > > You sound like you know what you are talking about. Could you conpare > and contrast Liquid propane Gas and Compressed Natural Gas for this type of > application? Do they make pulsed (as apposed to continuous) injectors for CNG? > > GT > 914-6 > Yeah Chrysler's (Bosch) CNG injectors, and Servojets (hear these need some kind of voltage amplifier to work, not sure) are pulsed injectors. Chrysler's CNG propgram has been on and off again over the last little while but I think you may be able to get the injectors at the dealer. As clare stated CNG tanks are heavier and carry less fuel because the NG is stored ad a vapour in most conventional systems. Thus your looking at a range of about 150-200 miles for conventional coversions. But they do have LNG storage tanks for vehicles, you get this big crogenic cylinder storing liquified NG which certainly increases your range (note still introduced into the engine compartment as a vapour). CNG has low power for the same reason vapour LP does, it displaces too much air. CNG if implemented properly will always have better emmisions, it is a cleaner fuel (mostly because its in a gaseous form it dosen't transport junk with it), and a cleaner burning fuel. Infrastructure controls the popularity of this fuel, when you have a limited range and refueling stations are far and few you could get yourself into problems. However if you heat your home with NG you can get yourself a compressor. The biggest problem I see with CNG is its storage pressure of 2000 - 3000 psi. Propane is stored as a liquid underpressure. But the operating range of a propane system is form 0 to 312.5 psi. All propane tanks have a pressure relief valve that either relives the tanks pressure at 250 psi, or 312.5 psi, sepending on what design guidline the company is building to. Because of this drastically lower pressure propane tanks can be made lighter and larger. Under chasis tanks can give you up to 350 miles depending on the application of course, and a bed mount tank in a pick up can get you up to 500-600 miles for a cylinder with a diameter the height of the bed. Injecting as a liquid you do not displace as much air, you cool the intake charge, and you get the most bang. The refueling infrastructure in Canada is amazing for propane, almost any where you can find gasoline you can find LP. The cost is excellent too for most of canada, the western provinces propane is <50% the cost if gasoline per Litre, in the middle provinces its around 60-65% that of gasoline. The infrastucture in the US in some areas is quite sufficient yet prices jump all over the place and sometimes they are higher per gallon than gasoline. If done properly a liquid system will have no hot driveability propblems, yet hot starting propblems are another issue. Because of all the engine heat soak back most of the underhood liquid will flash to vapour around 20-40 minutes after shutting off the engine. This vapour needs to be purged out of the system back to the tank(or into the manifold if you can controll it properly) before the vehicle will start. The chrysler system which uses a siemens dekka II bottom feed injector flushes propane through the lined on the key stroke cooling the tip of the injector and allowing it to start. The Vialle system, starts on gasloline and switches. So basically you are running into the inconvience of a cold starting diesel. Having to wait for the glow plugs to warm up in a diesel is analogous to waitng for the vapour to purge in a liquid system. A CNG system is probably the most expensive conversion due to the cost of the tanks and the higher design criteria. For the average application it has the least range and least power, better emissions. A Liquid Injection LP system is in the middle, mostly due to the cost of the tank (if you a pump inside) or an external pump. You have to have a pump if you are going to do a liquid system, under heavy engine loads tank presure can be sufficient, but under any other driving conditions the systems need that extra head above tank pressure. For the average application it has the most power, more range, and emmisions are comparable to Vapour injection. Vapour systems, the multipoint injection systems are of course are more expensive than TBI and carbureted. Depending on the system these can be comparably to the cost of liquid, some (GFI) alot more expensive, some (IMPCO) pretty damn cheap. Power is less than liquid but more than CNG. Range all depends on how the system is configured. If it is configured to meet emmission standards it less than liquid, but if you lean it right out you can get some good range, but sacrifice emissions. joe From wenning.motorsport at t-online.de Sun Jan 25 19:25:39 1998 From: wenning.motorsport at t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:25:39 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk schrieb: > Carl wrote about checksums : > > ...Looks to me like most data areas and even the code is protected by > > checksums ? > > ..Sounds right to me....some time ago I worked on a mil project with > > an ex. Delco guy and he wanted to checksum code, data,.. everything ! As far as I know most ECU?s don?t calculate the checksum of the whole binary file. I guess they calculate the checksum pagewise. So if you modify a map the correction of the checksum should be done somewhere near your modifications. Regards Alex Wenning wenning.motorsport at t-online.de From jalbury at tpgi.com.au Sun Jan 25 22:13:07 1998 From: jalbury at tpgi.com.au (Justin Albury) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:13:07 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: J > > Bob McKnight > > Phoenix > > az > Let me restate I am not an expert on this subject. I agree when the lpg > vaporizes, the temperature of the gas really drops. I know someone who > converted a '93 Chevy truck. He is not a technical type, but he lead me > to believe the conversion used his original injectors and just piped the > lpg thru the fuel rail instead of gasoline. So what happens at the > pressure regulator? > > I may have to look into this to satisfy my curiosity. > > Joe Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban i had a go at this myself but used a different regulator setup but all i could do was freeze injectors up ..... did the same thing using vapour and group a type injectors .......at high revs it would run out of fuel....and then freeze also.....ummmmm??? Justin From javer96 at snowcrest.net Mon Jan 26 03:29:54 1998 From: javer96 at snowcrest.net (Jennifer Rose) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:29:54 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: At 08:16 PM 1/25/98 +0100, you wrote: >martin at mgass.demon.co.uk schrieb: > >> Carl wrote about checksums : >> >> ...Looks to me like most data areas and even the code is protected by >> >> checksums ? >> >> ..Sounds right to me....some time ago I worked on a mil project with >> >> an ex. Delco guy and he wanted to checksum code, data,.. everything ! > >As far as I know most ECU?s don?t calculate the checksum of the whole binary >file. I guess they calculate the checksum pagewise. So if you modify a map the >correction of the checksum should be done somewhere near your modifications. > >Regards > >Alex Wenning >wenning.motorsport at t-online.de > >Hi All The checksum for gm 165 ecm. The code calulates checksum of 0009 thur 3FFF. If ya modify anything must recal total at 0006,7. Gm 730 ecm code is similar Vance > From bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com Mon Jan 26 03:52:02 1998 From: bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com (bamcknig at postoffice.syspac.com) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:52:02 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: Joe One thing that you forgot to mention about the Liquified Natural Gas (LNG) is that when you are not using it, you may have to vent some of it too keep the pressure-temperature ratio in the liquid area. I don't think that will affect many of us. I understand that they are putting together a transportation triangle in CA with one leg into Reno that would have the 18 wheelers using LNG because they have their engines running just about all the time and therefore would not have to vent. My understanding is that here in the Phx area that the LNG is a competitive fuel if you buy it in 10,000 gal quantities. Bob McKnight Phx AZ From richm at sykes.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 26 10:06:58 1998 From: richm at sykes.demon.co.uk (Rich Mauruschat) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 05:06:58 -0500 Subject: Simple FI Message-ID: << I really WOULD like to know about ANY other "simplified" FI systems; it's a keen interest of mine at present. Any leads/names/etc. gratefully appreciated.>> <> These guys are very helpful and genuinely interested in what they do, speak to Dave Walker (boss) or Karl (electronics wizard). There were some problems with V8 initially due to crossfireing resulting from the distributor being the rpm trigger, this I believe is all sorted now by using a crank mounted trigger instead. I have seen the software & it looks pretty straightforward. By the way, they also produce some very interesting cam profiles (spookily) for Ford 4-cyl (sohc pinto, x-flow, cvh). Rich. From wenning.motorsport at t-online.de Mon Jan 26 11:03:06 1998 From: wenning.motorsport at t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 06:03:06 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: > The checksum for gm 165 ecm. The code calulates checksum of 0009 > thur 3FFF. If ya modify anything must recal total at 0006,7. Gm 730 ecm code > is similar > > Vance I think it?s waste of time trying to find the checksum on all the different chips. Maybe GM does it the same way all the time but we?re busy with Bosch, Hitachi, Siemens, Delco, Weber Marelli and so on. It?s easier to modify the maps and find a suitable place (no code, no maps) to correct the checksum. E.g. if you?ve increased the values of a map, go and find a place next to your map where some $FF?s appear and decrease them until the checksum of the complete eprom is like the original one again. Regards Alex Wenning wenning.motorsport at t-online.de From terryk at foothill.net Mon Jan 26 14:54:35 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:54:35 -0500 Subject: GM Code Location Message-ID: This would be dangerous in the GM ECM's. TK -----Original Message----- From: Alexander Wenning To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 4:19 AM Subject: Re: GM Code Location > The checksum for gm 165 ecm. The code calulates checksum of 0009 > thur 3FFF. If ya modify anything must recal total at 0006,7. Gm 730 ecm code > is similar > > Vance I think it?s waste of time trying to find the checksum on all the different chips. Maybe GM does it the same way all the time but we?re busy with Bosch, Hitachi, Siemens, Delco, Weber Marelli and so on. It?s easier to modify the maps and find a suitable place (no code, no maps) to correct the checksum. E.g. if you?ve increased the values of a map, go and find a place next to your map where some $FF?s appear and decrease them until the checksum of the complete eprom is like the original one again. Regards Alex Wenning wenning.motorsport at t-online.de From tcraymond at email.msn.com Mon Jan 26 15:11:40 1998 From: tcraymond at email.msn.com (Tim Raymond) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:11:40 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: Hi everyone, I'm new to this list. I've been reading it for a couple weeks now and I could use some help. I'm in the process of trying to install a 5.0L HO from a 90 mustang in my 72. I've talked to the people at windsor-fox and they pointed out only a few mods that needed to be taken care of to get this thing to bolt in. My big problem is I don't know exactly what emmisions components I need in order to keep the computer from f-ing up. All I have now is the engine and anything attached directly to it. I don't currently have the computer or MAF sensor. I need to know if there are any other components that are not attached directly to the engine like the various solenoids, etc.. If anybody here has tried this and has any advice I would appreciate it. Tim From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Mon Jan 26 15:23:22 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:23:22 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: I was playing around in the garage Sunday before THE GAME setting up a power supply from an old modem to test some of the circuits you guys and girls have come up with. I was curious about a 7805 votage regulator I bought at Rat Shack. The back of the card said the input voltage was 35 volts. I thought that probably meant max voltage so I hooked up a 12 volt power supply to it. I was getting 5 volts out of it when it started smelling funny and a small spot on the chip started bubbling. Ooops. I think I shorted two of the leads coming out of the chip with the voltmeter probes. 1) Did that do it? 2) Inputing 12 volts didn't do it, did it? 3) Did having no load do it? 4) Does it need a heat sink which is why the back side was nice and shiney? I found a store near me that sells 6000 types of chips and surplus parts for a lot less than Rat Shack. But the hours are inconvenient and the owner is a jerk. Can't have everything. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From clsnyde at ibm.net Mon Jan 26 16:20:28 1998 From: clsnyde at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:20:28 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: Tim Raymond wrote: > > Hi everyone, > I'm new to this list. I've been reading it for a couple weeks now and I > could use some help. I'm in the process of trying to install a 5.0L > HO from a 90 mustang in my 72. I've talked to the people at windsor-fox and > they pointed out only a few mods that needed to be taken care of to get this > thing to bolt in. My big problem is I don't know exactly what emmisions > components I need in order to keep the computer from f-ing up. All I have > now is the engine and anything attached directly to it. I don't currently > have the computer or MAF sensor. I need to know if there are any other > components that are not attached directly to the engine like the various > solenoids, etc.. If anybody here has tried this and has any advice I would > appreciate it. > > Tim Buy the kit from Ford Motorsport - complete harness with all connectors, instructions, diagrams etc required. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From mpc at genevaonline.com Mon Jan 26 17:24:10 1998 From: mpc at genevaonline.com (Squash) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:24:10 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: I think a 7805 should work just fine with 12 volts. Not sure what you shorted together, but that sure wouldn't help! -- Andy Quaas From sganz at wgn.net Mon Jan 26 17:37:51 1998 From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:37:51 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: >Ooops. > >I think I shorted two of the leads coming out of the chip with the >voltmeter probes. 1) Did that do it? 2) Inputing 12 volts didn't do it, >did it? 3) Did having no load do it? 4) Does it need a heat sink which >is why the back side was nice and shiney? A short would do it, the 12V input is fine and depending on the load you _may_ need to heat sink it. No load should not cause a problem. > >I found a store near me that sells 6000 types of chips and surplus parts >for a lot less than Rat Shack. But the hours are inconvenient and the >owner is a jerk. Can't have everything. Sounds like a guy near me! Sandy From TEBUTLER at mccain.ca Mon Jan 26 17:58:10 1998 From: TEBUTLER at mccain.ca (BUTLER, Tom) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:58:10 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: Those 7805 regulators are pretty rugged devices. Shorting the output isn't a good thing to do, but should not cook it. Those things are supposed to have thermal overload protection. You're right...35 volts IS the maximum input. You should give the 78XX devices about 3 volts or mor above the regulated voltage as input. There are only two things I can think of which might have smoked your regulator. First, it may have been defective. Second, was that 12V DC and was the polarity correct??? Tom Butler > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Boucher [SMTP:BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com] > Sent: Monday, January 26, 1998 11:24 AM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Burned up my first chip! > > I was playing around in the garage Sunday before THE GAME setting up a > power supply from an old modem to test some of the circuits you guys > and > girls have come up with. I was curious about a 7805 votage regulator > I > bought at Rat Shack. The back of the card said the input voltage was > 35 > volts. I thought that probably meant max voltage so I hooked up a 12 > volt power supply to it. I was getting 5 volts out of it when it > started smelling funny and a small spot on the chip started bubbling. > > Ooops. > > I think I shorted two of the leads coming out of the chip with the > voltmeter probes. 1) Did that do it? 2) Inputing 12 volts didn't do > it, > did it? 3) Did having no load do it? 4) Does it need a heat sink > which > is why the back side was nice and shiney? > > I found a store near me that sells 6000 types of chips and surplus > parts > for a lot less than Rat Shack. But the hours are inconvenient and the > owner is a jerk. Can't have everything. > > Joe Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From kv at us.ibm.com Mon Jan 26 18:41:38 1998 From: kv at us.ibm.com (Kevin Vannorsdel) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:41:38 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: sparky (grin) 78xx regs have some pretty good protection built in for over current and thermal shutdown... I am surprised you blew it out... make sure that it is not plugged in backwards...(but if you actually got 5V out of it... that is not likely either). ________________________________________________ Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv at us.ibm.com owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu on 01/26/98 05:19:33 AM Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ internet To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ internet cc: Subject: Re: Burned up my first chip! I think a 7805 should work just fine with 12 volts. Not sure what you shorted together, but that sure wouldn't help! -- Andy Quaas From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Mon Jan 26 18:41:47 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:41:47 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: >HO from a 90 mustang in my 72. I've talked to the people at windsor-fox and >they pointed out only a few mods that needed to be taken care of to get this >thing to bolt in. My big problem is I don't know exactly what emmisions >components I need in order to keep the computer from f-ing up. All I have My advice is as follows, though a little on the expensive side. First, whenever possible, its best to swap the ENTIRE powertrain assembly over, including the ECM, harness, all sensors and hoses, etc, because then your troubleshooting will be reduced to "what did I forget to connect" versus "what does this ECM need?", a much simpler process. Being your vehicle is 1972, you don't need more than a PVC valve, a charcoal canister, and a cat converter. The rest of it you can toss, however your ECM will be expecting certain sensors and plumbing to be there. Your other alternative is to purchase something like a Haltach or Electromotive after-market engine management system, which you can hook up yourself.... both units have screw terminals and well-documented instruction booklets. How I would choose between the to choices, is to realize that an aftermarket ECM system would probably fall into the $1400-1800 range, and depending if you have to buy the missing components from a retailer, or can dig them out of a junkyard, you could save from there. Hope I helped :) BTW, the swap you are doing is fairly easy mechanically... did you bring the new transmission over as well? If you did, you have to have your driveshaft length changed, but other than that, its a nice, reliable setup. Plus, you don't have to spray crud in your motorcraft carb anymore :) Lastly, I do believe Ford does sell the appropriate harness for your setup through their Motorsports division, which most of the dealers have access to, part wise. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Mon Jan 26 18:41:48 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:41:48 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: >bought at Rat Shack. The back of the card said the input voltage was 35 >volts. I thought that probably meant max voltage so I hooked up a 12 >volt power supply to it. I was getting 5 volts out of it when it >started smelling funny and a small spot on the chip started bubbling. Max input voltage on the LM78xx series is 35V, however if you don't want to fry the unit, keep it under 28V for higher loads. In fact, the higher current you want to draw from it, the closer to about 15-16V you want to go, that seems to be the "ideal" for that chip, based solely on the many, many power supplies I've made where I've used one. >I think I shorted two of the leads coming out of the chip with the >voltmeter probes. 1) Did that do it? 2) Inputing 12 volts didn't do it, >did it? 3) Did having no load do it? 4) Does it need a heat sink which >is why the back side was nice and shiney? Yes, if you are going to draw over 500ma, then a heatsink is a necessity, linear power supply chips make a lot of heat, which is why they are inherently inefficient devices. Anyway, I'll save that lecture for another time . If you shorted the output and ground together, then yes, you'd draw a lot of current, but a modem adaptor couldn't supply enough current to toast the chip, assuming its a DC adaptor, and not an AC adaptor, like some of the PPI, Hayes, and ZOOM modems. Double check your adaptor type and connections, for if you have AC or reversed the voltage, the chip will be cooked :) >for a lot less than Rat Shack. But the hours are inconvenient and the >owner is a jerk. Can't have everything. Well, tradeoffs for everything. Just remember you are buying parts, not proposing marriage Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From orin at wolfenet.com Mon Jan 26 19:07:49 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:07:49 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: > I think I shorted two of the leads coming out of the chip with the > voltmeter probes. 1) Did that do it? 2) Inputing 12 volts didn't do it, > did it? 3) Did having no load do it? 4) Does it need a heat sink which > is why the back side was nice and shiney? You shouldn't have any trouble with 12V. You might want a small heatsink if you want to take 1A out of it at 5V - it will be dissipating 7W. If you are planning to run this off the car's electrical system, you will need a little protection before the 7805... I use 12V -> resistor -> 1N4004 -> 27V TVS to ground, big cap to ground, 7805 input. This protects the 7805 against various transients and voltage reversals on the 12 V supply. The big cap powers the 7805 during voltage dropouts on the 12V supply - use 100 to 300 uF, 35V. The resistor is mainly to help soak up transients rather than letting the TVS do all the job. I use 22 ohm 1/2W for a circuit requiring 100mA or so. 2.2 ohm 5W would be good for a circuit requiring 1A, but use a _big_ (1.5KE at least) TVS. Orin. From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Mon Jan 26 22:42:36 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:42:36 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: Gosh, Tell a little tale and look at all the help you get! Thank u, thank u, thank u very much. Appreciate the lessons. Jeo Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From sfgent at ac.net Mon Jan 26 23:27:34 1998 From: sfgent at ac.net (sfg) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:27:34 -0500 Subject: major domo Message-ID: Is this valid? Majordomo at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Can't get a msg into major domo. Thanks, Steve From mvwilli1 at worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 27 02:01:04 1998 From: mvwilli1 at worldnet.att.net (Mike Williams) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:01:04 -0500 Subject: major domo Message-ID: sfg wrote: > > Is this valid? Majordomo at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Can't get a msg into major domo. > Thanks, Steve showed up on my screen, should be working. From chiasson at hutchtel.net Tue Jan 27 02:39:27 1998 From: chiasson at hutchtel.net (Joe Chiasson) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:39:27 -0500 Subject: Vapour Injected LPG Message-ID: > > One thing that you forgot to mention about the Liquified Natural Gas > (LNG) is that when you are not using it, you may have to vent some of > it too keep the pressure-temperature ratio in the liquid area. I > don't think that will affect many of us. I understand that they are > putting together a transportation triangle in CA with one leg into > Reno that would have the 18 wheelers using LNG because they have > their engines running just about all the time and therefore would not > have to vent. My understanding is that here in the Phx area that > the LNG is a competitive fuel if you buy it in 10,000 gal quantities. > > Bob McKnight Phx AZ Yes sir I did forget to mention that, and is a very important point. That is an interesting situation with the 18 wheelers, shows that with the proper infrastructure in place (almost) anything can work. thanks, joe From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 27 03:16:56 1998 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:16:56 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! *** THANKS !!!! *** Message-ID: > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Priority: Normal > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:27:54 MST > From: Will Honea > Subject: Re: Hi everybody., new to this group ! *** THANKS !!!! *** > Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > ** Reply to note from Riddler Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:34:43 -0500 > > Sorry for my lack of knowledge here but what is an Harvard Archetecture !? and why we have to > > "fight",.. is it so bad !?!? > > > > Harvard Arch. machines separate data and program memory - the 8051 is a pain to work with from that > standpoint. It also has a very limited stack which is not real good in multi-input systems. Speed-wise, > the 68HCxx series runs rings around it. There is also a bit of bias here: I've never been impressed > (positively, at least) by Intel's power consumption/disapation nor by their electrical ruggedness, at least > when compared to Motorola or NSC with their extensive MIL lines. > > Will Honea > whonea at codenet.net > > > How about the dallas 40 MHz 8051?. I use PICS with RISC architecture 5 MIPS at 20MHz. with 25 mA high voltage ports. Development systems are the lowest cost. Alex From whonea at codenet.net Tue Jan 27 06:26:18 1998 From: whonea at codenet.net (Will Honea) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 01:26:18 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! *** THANKS !!!! *** Message-ID: ** Reply to note from xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:59:37 +0000 > How about the dallas 40 MHz 8051?. I use PICS with RISC architecture 5 MIPS at 20MHz. with 25 mA > high voltage ports. Development systems are the lowest cost. Still a PITA to program, especially if subsatntial computation is involved. It's also not my favorite part to design into hardware - too many 'special' features. As for Dallas, my only real experience with them was that they were always priced out of the product by virtually everyone else. As a practice, I try to use whichever processor best fits the task at hand since each has it's own strong points - as long as there is a viable second source. Will Honea whonea at codenet.net From tony.cooper at virgin.net Tue Jan 27 09:38:01 1998 From: tony.cooper at virgin.net (Tony Cooper) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 04:38:01 -0500 Subject: Hi everybody., new to this group ! *** THANKS !!!! *** Message-ID: Will Honea wrote: > > ** Reply to note from xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:59:37 +0000 > > How about the dallas 40 MHz 8051?. I use PICS with RISC architecture 5 MIPS at 20MHz. with 25 mA > > high voltage ports. Development systems are the lowest cost. > > Still a PITA to program, especially if subsatntial computation is involved. It's also not my favorite part to > design into hardware - too many 'special' features. As for Dallas, my only real experience with them was > that they were always priced out of the product by virtually everyone else. As a practice, I try to use > whichever processor best fits the task at hand since each has it's own strong points - as long as there is a > viable second source. > > Will Honea > whonea at codenet.net And what about the AVR chips from fingy (Forgot who now....sorry). They are slightly RISC, but quite quick for what they are. 1 mip per mhz - nice - and upto 16mhz... more nice. Plus the development system/software emulator is FREE - and they cost about the same as PICS do. Just me 2p's worth Tony -- Sent By Tony Cooper. email: tony.cooper at virgin.net Allow at least 10 working minutes for reply. ;) From tony.cooper at virgin.net Tue Jan 27 09:38:03 1998 From: tony.cooper at virgin.net (Tony Cooper) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 04:38:03 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: Joe Boucher wrote: > > I was playing around in the garage Sunday before THE GAME setting up a > power supply from an old modem to test some of the circuits you guys and > girls have come up with. I was curious about a 7805 votage regulator I > bought at Rat Shack. The back of the card said the input voltage was 35 > volts. I thought that probably meant max voltage so I hooked up a 12 > volt power supply to it. I was getting 5 volts out of it when it > started smelling funny and a small spot on the chip started bubbling. > > Ooops. I'm sorry Joe, but I just have to chuckle..... Reminds me of my first 'burning chip'...hehehehehee Shouldn't laugh, specially as you have taken the plunge and connected something up...Good on you. Some information for you for your future projects. The power disipation can be calculated as follows:- (Vin-Vout)*Idrawn = Watts heat produced Which translates to (12V in - 5V out ) * Current drawn (Lets say 0.5A) Which is 3.5 Watts. The device (7805) has approximatly enough area in free air to dissipate 0.2 Watt , so for this application, a heatsink of maximum 14 degrees C per watt (I don't like power devices getting hotter than 50 degrees) will disipate enough heat. Hope thisd helps (Hope this is accurate - I have been up all night working and my vision is a bit fuzzy!!!) Tony -- Sent By Tony Cooper. email: tony.cooper at virgin.net Allow at least 10 working minutes for reply. ;) From dchamber at pronet.net.au Tue Jan 27 09:52:41 1998 From: dchamber at pronet.net.au (David Chambers) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 04:52:41 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: Joe Boucher wrote: > > I was playing around in the garage Sunday before THE GAME setting up a > power supply from an old modem to test some of the circuits you guys and > girls have come up with. I was curious about a 7805 votage regulator I > bought at Rat Shack. The back of the card said the input voltage was 35 > volts. I thought that probably meant max voltage so I hooked up a 12 > volt power supply to it. I was getting 5 volts out of it when it > started smelling funny and a small spot on the chip started bubbling. > > Ooops. > > I think I shorted two of the leads coming out of the chip with the > voltmeter probes. 1) Did that do it? 2) Inputing 12 volts didn't do it, > did it? 3) Did having no load do it? 4) Does it need a heat sink which > is why the back side was nice and shiney? > > I found a store near me that sells 6000 types of chips and surplus parts > for a lot less than Rat Shack. But the hours are inconvenient and the > owner is a jerk. Can't have everything. > > Joe Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban One other thing you need to check is that if you run long input or output leads. ie > 6" you will need a small cap right on the input pins of the regulator. Say 10uf at 35V. It is also good practice to put the same size and value cap on the 5V output as well. These caps stop the 7805 oscillating and cooking itself. David Chambers From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Tue Jan 27 15:37:49 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:37:49 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: Tony Cooper wrote: > > I'm sorry Joe, but I just have to chuckle..... Reminds me of my first > 'burning chip'...hehehehehee > > Shouldn't laugh, Hey, that's the main reason why I told the story! Thought you guys would enjoy my hearing about my *first* time. Didn't expect all the help! Thanks again, Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From pfenske at direct.ca Tue Jan 27 16:01:22 1998 From: pfenske at direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:01:22 -0500 Subject: Burned chip! Message-ID: Hi Guys and Gals With the 7805 make absolutely sure you provide a low AC impedance one the input and output or they can oscillate. This is very unpredictable and varies greatly among brands.. An oscillation can set in and the chip will burn up. This has nothing to do with DC dissipation The gist is to use the two 1 uf caps recommended tantalums preferred because of their low impedance later:peter From tcraymond at email.msn.com Tue Jan 27 19:16:35 1998 From: tcraymond at email.msn.com (Tim Raymond) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:16:35 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: >Your other alternative is to purchase something like a Haltach or >Electromotive after-market engine management system, which you can hook up >yourself.... both units have screw terminals and well-documented >instruction booklets. This may be a stupid question, as I am not too familiar with it, but what about efi332 or any of the other diy ecu's? From kv at us.ibm.com Tue Jan 27 20:45:15 1998 From: kv at us.ibm.com (Kevin Vannorsdel) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:45:15 -0500 Subject: C3 EPROM socket Message-ID: I am gradually getting closer to playing the PROM swap game...and... I have come to really hate those little plastic PROM holders in the C3 ECM's. Last night I managed to stick a standard 24 pin (machined pin) IC socket into the C3 without using that goofy plastic thing. I then plugged the PROM into this new socket. Everything seems to function and I made it all the way into work without it vibrating loose or anything. Has anyone tried something like this? I am actually thinking now of plugging a ZIF socket into the above socket... and then PROM swaps will be NO problem... Any comments? ________________________________________________ Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv at us.ibm.com From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Tue Jan 27 21:39:16 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:39:16 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: >This may be a stupid question, as I am not too familiar with it, but what >about efi332 or any of the other diy ecu's? Howdy, By all means, the more involved the better... but from what I gathered from their website - the number of completed units, tested, running, and fully operational are in the lower numbers at this point. If I'm wrong, great, that would be super. However, there is a major difference between soldering your own system together, and having those testing issues to deal with, versus spending $1500 and bolting something on, and turning the key and hearing the roar. Just an opinion :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From gcouger at ionet.net Tue Jan 27 22:34:58 1998 From: gcouger at ionet.net (Gordon Couger) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:34:58 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: - >Tony Cooper wrote: >> >> I'm sorry Joe, but I just have to chuckle..... Reminds me of my first >> 'burning chip'...hehehehehee >> >> Shouldn't laugh, > >Hey, that's the main reason why I told the story! Thought you guys >would enjoy my hearing about my *first* time. Didn't expect all the >help! You'll burn a lot more before your done. Some are a lot more spectacular. Like blowing a 5 amp FET of the board next to your ear or having tantalum cap go up in flames. One thing that help to prevent this is to use a current controlled power supply the first time. Set the voltage and turn the current as low as it will go. Power up the circuit and slowly increase the current. You can catch it if it draws too much current. Gordon Gordon Couger 624 Cheyenne Stillwater, OK 74075 405 624-2855 GMT -6:00 From yorker at deltanet.com Tue Jan 27 23:24:06 1998 From: yorker at deltanet.com (Robert E. Yorke) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:24:06 -0500 Subject: C3 EPROM socket Message-ID: Kevin: I think what you're trying to do is a damned good idea; if you do come up with a ZIF socket conversion, please let us all know what you did and what hardware is involved. What was the 24-pin IC socket that you used so far? At 03:50 PM 1/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >I am gradually getting closer to playing the PROM swap game...and... > >I have come to really hate those little plastic PROM holders in the C3 ECM's. >Last night I managed to stick a standard 24 pin (machined pin) IC socket into >the C3 without using that goofy plastic thing. I then plugged the PROM into >this new socket. Everything seems to function and I made it all the way into >work without it vibrating loose or anything. > >Has anyone tried something like this? I am actually thinking now of plugging a >ZIF socket into the above socket... and then >PROM swaps will be NO problem... > >Any comments? > >________________________________________________ > Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development > 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv at us.ibm.com > > Riverside, CA 2 '88 GTs! From tcraymond at email.msn.com Wed Jan 28 00:51:06 1998 From: tcraymond at email.msn.com (Tim Raymond) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:51:06 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Frederic Breitwieser To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ; diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 5:46 PM Subject: Re: 72 Stang to EFI conversion >>This may be a stupid question, as I am not too familiar with it, but what >>about efi332 or any of the other diy ecu's? > >Howdy, > >By all means, the more involved the better... but from what I gathered from >their website - the number of completed units, tested, running, and fully >operational are in the lower numbers at this point. If I'm wrong, great, >that would be super. However, there is a major difference between >soldering your own system together, and having those testing issues to deal >with, versus spending $1500 and bolting something on, and turning the key >and hearing the roar. > >Just an opinion :) > > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) >2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) > big difference is I have a lot of time and not so much of the money. Besides, that's all of the fun stuff. It ain't fun until you get pissed off at it once or twice. But seriously, if anybody has any info on a diy ecu I would appreciate it. I have checked out the efi332 site but there aren't many details and it's kind of hard to fill in the holes in the archives between messages. It would be nice if they had one downloadable zip with all of the info. That's really the only I've found so far though. Well, thanks for the help. From stucky at interaccess.com Wed Jan 28 02:20:13 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:20:13 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: Tim Raymond wrote: > > Hi everyone, > I'm new to this list. I've been reading it for a couple weeks now and I > could use some help. I'm in the process of trying to install a 5.0L > HO from a 90 mustang in my 72. I've talked to the people at windsor-fox and > they pointed out only a few mods that needed to be taken care of to get this > thing to bolt in. My big problem is I don't know exactly what emmisions > components I need in order to keep the computer from f-ing up. All I have > now is the engine and anything attached directly to it. I don't currently > have the computer or MAF sensor. I need to know if there are any other > components that are not attached directly to the engine like the various > solenoids, etc.. If anybody here has tried this and has any advice I would > appreciate it. > > Tim Lets start from the beginning... A 90 5.0 is of the EEC IV vintage (OBDI). You will obviously have 8 fuel injectors in the intake, a throttle position sensor on the throttle body, and an intake air bypass valve on the plennum. The other important thing to have would be a MAP or a MAF. The engine and air temp sensors should also be on the engine. The main sensors needed for the fuel control would be TPS, MAP/MAF and ECT. IAT may also contribute. The other components are optional to an extent. The EGR valve and EVP or PFE sensor. These items can be omitted but: the computer will set a code and turn on the ck engine light. The computer may or may not retard ignition timing due to lack of EGR. The engine may or may not run hotter (probably not noticeable, only combustion temperatures should be effected) The thermactor air system. If the engine has an air pump (some 90 5.0l did, probably just trucks) The pump, check valves, air tubes, TAB solenoid, TAD solenoid, and muffler can go. (the muffler for the air vent). The computer will set a code during the KOER self test and may set a code while driving, but will not turn on the ck engine lamp or cause any noticable drivability problem at all. The canister purge system. This could be eliminated without any performance problems. No codes. No engine light. Do you need CANP to pass emissions tests for 72? Oh Yeah!! You'll need the oxygen sensor in the exhaust. Very important to closed loop operation and saving your pocket book from melting down catalytic converters. The power steering pressure switch could be eliminated, but you might want this with power steering. E-mail me if you have any specific questions Scott From Ccskidmore at aol.com Wed Jan 28 02:31:58 1998 From: Ccskidmore at aol.com (Ccskidmore) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:31:58 -0500 Subject: Briggs&Stratton Injection Message-ID: To the collective: I am gearing up to put together a small analog control system on a Briggs & Stratton 5 HP engine with a generator. The scope is a fuel injector using speed as feedback(1800rpm) as well as an O2 sensor to trim for emissions and fuel consumption. I have examined the archives, and found small bits of information on past projects but no definitive proven results. Especially to those of you who have experimented with these small engines, I would appreciate any guidance and suggestions; especially information on particular physical setups; injectors, size, part numbers, pulse width, driving circuit (LM1949?). Also experiences with EGO sensors (probably need to be heated?) or alternatives for emission feedback. Also thoughts on rpm feedback...inductive, frequency, external(package bought from NEWARK or somebody)???? Thank you for responses, ccskidmore From stucky at interaccess.com Wed Jan 28 02:36:55 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:36:55 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: Tim Raymond wrote: > > Hi everyone, > I'm new to this list. I've been reading it for a couple weeks now and I > could use some help. I'm in the process of trying to install a 5.0L > HO from a 90 mustang in my 72. I've talked to the people at windsor-fox and > they pointed out only a few mods that needed to be taken care of to get this > thing to bolt in. My big problem is I don't know exactly what emmisions > components I need in order to keep the computer from f-ing up. All I have > now is the engine and anything attached directly to it. I don't currently > have the computer or MAF sensor. I need to know if there are any other > components that are not attached directly to the engine like the various > solenoids, etc.. If anybody here has tried this and has any advice I would > appreciate it. > > Tim Me again. Something else I just thought of... the distributor with the TFI IV module and the harness with the SPOUT connector. Very important parts. MAP/MAF, TPS, ECT all play parts in advance curves. The pickup inside the distributor is also nesc. for the PCM. It sends a cranck signal to the PCM. Without it: no tach input, no injector pulse width output, etc. Reccomendation: check into a later model ford EEC IV engine management system that has a data stream. That way you can watch values and diagnose problems with a conventional scanner. Ford was late to jump this band wagon and it is a real shame. However, since I am Factory Ford trained, I understand how to diagnose problems in these systems and therefore have job security at my full time technical job. Talk to you later. Ex Factory Ford Tech Full time everything tech (currently) Scott From javer96 at snowcrest.net Wed Jan 28 03:28:30 1998 From: javer96 at snowcrest.net (Jennifer Rose) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:28:30 -0500 Subject: C3 EPROM socket Message-ID: At 03:50 PM 1/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >I am gradually getting closer to playing the PROM swap game...and... > >I have come to really hate those little plastic PROM holders in the C3 ECM's. >Last night I managed to stick a standard 24 pin (machined pin) IC socket into >the C3 without using that goofy plastic thing. I then plugged the PROM into >this new socket. Everything seems to function and I made it all the way into >work without it vibrating loose or anything. > >Has anyone tried something like this? I am actually thinking now of plugging a >ZIF socket into the above socket... and then >PROM swaps will be NO problem... > >Any comments? > >________________________________________________ > Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development > 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv at us.ibm.com > >Hi Kevin Just leave eprom in holder - just fab an adaptor to prom burner. Can purchase part from jameco or digikey. Vance From tcraymond at email.msn.com Wed Jan 28 04:45:06 1998 From: tcraymond at email.msn.com (Tim Raymond) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:45:06 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: >Oh Yeah!! You'll need the oxygen sensor in the exhaust. Very important >to closed loop operation and saving your pocket book from melting down >catalytic converters. > >The power steering pressure switch could be eliminated, but you might >want this with power steering. > >E-mail me if you have any specific questions > >Scott I have a couple of questions. Do I need the cats or can I ditch those. I have no emmisions tests to pass and as far as I know NY has no emmissions requirements for earlier cars. I'm planning on removing thermactor air. I think I'll keep the EGR. It wont hurt, but I don't think I have the vacumn regulator or solenoid or whatever it is. I can't find very clear info on the manuals I have. Where is the BAP mounted, I may or may not have that. I am also missing O2 sensors. I assume any junkyard O2 sensors will work. I'm not quite sure what to do about exhaust. Currently the car is stock '72 single exhaust. The '90 has headers. Third and final big problem is fuel delivery. Probably an inline pump, but I'll have to add a return line. I presently have the engine mostly disassembled so any mods here are easy. As soon as it warms up around here I can get to the car and find out more. Well, thanks for any help. It is going to be badly needed From e9329002 at student.uq.edu.au Wed Jan 28 13:11:32 1998 From: e9329002 at student.uq.edu.au (Christian Hack) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:11:32 -0500 Subject: VL Turbo Commodore ECCS Message-ID: Howdy, I realise this is a probably an majority American group which would only include Australian Commodores from VL Walkinshaw and VN onwards, but does anyone have any info on the Nissan ECCS found in 6 cylinder VL Commodores. All I know currently is that the system is based around the Motorola MC6802 processor (actually it's a Hitachi HD6802). Specifically I would like information about the Turbo & Automatic computer although the naturally aspirated version would suffice for most of the time. Apparently it is based on the Bosch Motronic system. Currently, I'm not really willing to desolder my ROM (128k x 8 I think) to disassemble since VL Turbo Auto engine computers are pretty expensive. BTW: For the Americans, the engine is a Nissan 3.0 litre inline 6, with the Nissan code RB30ET. The naturally aspirated version (RB30E also appeared in the Australian Skyline) I have the Electronics Australia article (about August 96 I think) which really only describes the fault diagnosis of the system. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Replies to the group _or_ by email are fine. Thanks Christian Hack From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Wed Jan 28 14:04:32 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:04:32 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: >big difference is I have a lot of time and not so much of the money. Same boat as me :) >Besides, that's all of the fun stuff. It ain't fun until you get pissed off >at it once or twice. But seriously, if anybody has any info on a diy ecu I >would appreciate it. I have checked out the efi332 site but there aren't All of the files, PCboard layouts, etc, are there, its a matter of hunting and finding it. I have downloaded most of it, however lost it when my hard drive foobared, otherwise I would have zipped it all for ya. They even have some of the code there. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Wed Jan 28 14:44:29 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:44:29 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: > > Oh Yeah!! You'll need the oxygen sensor in the exhaust. Very important > to closed loop operation and saving your pocket book from melting down > catalytic converters. > There must be a bunch of young punks on this list. This is the second time someone has mentioned catalytic convertors during this thread. They didn't appear on cars till '75. Joe (Old Fart) Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban I was in Jr. high when my Camaro was made and I didn't like it then! From pfenske at direct.ca Wed Jan 28 15:52:11 1998 From: pfenske at direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:52:11 -0500 Subject: Gm MPU Message-ID: HI Guys and Gals All the gm code I have seen C3, P4, and PCm dissembles quite nicely with a HC11 dissembler I have Sim6811 if you like There is a nice windows package UMPS which also does a host of processors. Unfortunately my demo has timed out.. As for processors I think the C3 has a "enhanced" 6801 structure The P4 is pre HC11. Known as the GMP4 chipset it was the HC11 that was based on this set. later:peter From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Wed Jan 28 16:27:09 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:27:09 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: >There must be a bunch of young punks on this list. This is the second >time someone has mentioned catalytic convertors during this thread. >They didn't appear on cars till '75. Must me "Old Fart" Joe . But, wouldn't it be great to make a low-pollution, overpowered Mustang? Every little bit helps :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From rwhughe at hal-pc.org Wed Jan 28 16:29:56 1998 From: rwhughe at hal-pc.org (Robert W. Hughes) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:29:56 -0500 Subject: C3 EPROM socket Message-ID: If you have had some experience removing IC's from circuit boards removing the factory socket and replacing it with a ZIF socket is easy. Remember the old socket doesn't have to come off in one piece but don't damage the circuit board. Save the socket pieces, re-assemble them, and plug this into a standard 24 pin socket. This gives you an adaptor for your programmer so you can read other peoples' proms. Meanwhile you can easily change your own prom without struggling with the RN adaptor. Just be sure to mark the pin 1 position prominently on the circuit board and observe it when swapping. 2732s have a zero survival rate when plugged in upside down. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering Houston, Texas rwhughe at hal-pc.org From wenning.motorsport at t-online.de Wed Jan 28 16:52:36 1998 From: wenning.motorsport at t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:52:36 -0500 Subject: Subaru & OBD2 ??? Message-ID: I have to do the electronics of the new Subaru Impreza 2.0l (85 kW). I saw some weeks ago a web address in this list with many informations about the OBD2 in this car. Has anybody ever programmed the Subaru via interface or has anybody developed a tool to do that? Can somebody tell me the web address again? Thank you. Regards Alex Wenning wenning.motorsport at t-online.de From steve at imes.com Wed Jan 28 18:16:42 1998 From: steve at imes.com (steve ravet) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:16:42 -0500 Subject: linux mall: linux CDs for $5 Message-ID: The Linux mall has linux CDs for free, you pay shipping ($5 in the US). You can chose from: Debian, Linux Pro by WGS, OpenLinux by Caldera, Red Hat Linux, or Slackware See http://www.LinuxMall.com/FreeCD.html -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve at imes.com From cwebb at polarnet.com Wed Jan 28 18:17:38 1998 From: cwebb at polarnet.com (Ron & Cathy Webb) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:17:38 -0500 Subject: Subaru & OBD2 ??? Message-ID: --------------4E84F971F7E8753168EA7142 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the address you want is Subaru (Japanese) . It is in japanese, but there are pictures, binary dumps, and even a Mitsubishi MELPS 7700 (the microcontroller used) disassembler. Concentrate a while, and a lot can be deciphered. There are demo tools for this uC available on the net (Assembler, C compiler, and simulator I've found) What do you mean by "do the electronics" ? If you get down to the level of attacking the hardware configuration of the ECU, or reprogramming, we can talk further... Alexander Wenning wrote: > I have to do the electronics of the new Subaru Impreza 2.0l (85 > kW). I saw some weeks ago a > web address in this list with many informations about the OBD2 > in this car. > > Has anybody ever programmed the Subaru via interface or has > anybody developed a tool to do > that? > > Can somebody tell me the web address again? Thank you. > > Regards > > Alex Wenning > wenning.motorsport at t-online.de --------------4E84F971F7E8753168EA7142 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the address you want is  Subaru (Japanese) . It is in japanese, but there are pictures, binary dumps, and even a Mitsubishi MELPS 7700 (the microcontroller used) disassembler. Concentrate a while, and a lot can be deciphered.

There are demo tools for this uC available on the net (Assembler, C compiler, and simulator I've found)

What do you mean by "do the electronics" ? If you get down to the level of attacking the hardware configuration of the ECU, or reprogramming, we can talk further...
 

Alexander Wenning wrote:

I have to do the electronics of the new Subaru Impreza 2.0l (85 kW). I saw some weeks ago a
web address in this list with many informations about the OBD2 in this car.

Has anybody ever programmed the Subaru via interface or has anybody developed a tool to do
that?

Can somebody tell me the web address again? Thank you.

Regards

Alex Wenning
wenning.motorsport at t-online.de

   --------------4E84F971F7E8753168EA7142-- From orin at wolfenet.com Wed Jan 28 19:19:15 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:19:15 -0500 Subject: VL Turbo Commodore ECCS Message-ID: > All I know currently is that the system is based around the Motorola > MC6802 processor (actually it's a Hitachi HD6802). Specifically I would > like information about the Turbo & Automatic computer although the > naturally aspirated version would suffice for most of the time. > Apparently it is based on the Bosch Motronic system. Who makes the ECU? Hitachi? What other chips are in the ECU? > Currently, I'm not really willing to desolder my ROM (128k x 8 I think) > to disassemble since VL Turbo Auto engine computers are pretty > expensive. Try finding a dead one in a junkyard... Orin. From tcraymond at email.msn.com Wed Jan 28 20:08:42 1998 From: tcraymond at email.msn.com (Tim Raymond) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:08:42 -0500 Subject: linux mall: linux CDs for $5 Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: steve ravet To: diyefi ; efi332 Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 2:25 PM Subject: linux mall: linux CDs for $5 >The Linux mall has linux CDs for free, you pay shipping ($5 in the US). >You can chose from: >Debian, Linux Pro by WGS, OpenLinux by Caldera, Red Hat Linux, or >Slackware > >See http://www.LinuxMall.com/FreeCD.html > Which one is the best suited for efi332? From Tregacorp at aol.com Wed Jan 28 20:23:15 1998 From: Tregacorp at aol.com (Tregacorp) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:23:15 -0500 Subject: business idea Message-ID: Hello, Just wanted to run an idea by you. Ok, I am sick of working 9-5 and want to work for myself. I have been researching starting a home business, and came up with the following idea. Providing people with a consulting service for the purchase of new and used cars. Basically for a fee, evaluate used cars with the customer, and give them an honest evaluation based on blue book value, my experiences, and internet resources. Currently there are sites, where you can see the accident history of any car, by the VIN number. I would also offer reports on used vehicles online via the internet, using newsgroup resources and other internet sites. Basically I would be compiling information that other people do not have time for. Future plans include a mobile repair van, and maybe a windshield repair operation. I am planning on doing this part time, until I am secure in leaving my current job. Do you think people would pay to have this information? What would you pay to have this information? Is there someone else doing this, that I don't know about in the area? Thank you for your time, Kevin From james at brc.ubc.ca Wed Jan 28 20:25:22 1998 From: james at brc.ubc.ca (James Weiler) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:25:22 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Scott Shotton wrote: > The power steering pressure switch could be eliminated, but you might > want this with power steering. > > E-mail me if you have any specific questions > > Scott > I didn't know the 5.0 '89-92 had a power steering pressure switch. Can you confirm? thanks jw From james at brc.ubc.ca Wed Jan 28 20:26:48 1998 From: james at brc.ubc.ca (James Weiler) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:26:48 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Scott Shotton wrote: > Reccomendation: check into a later model ford EEC IV engine management > system that has a data stream. That way you can watch values and > diagnose problems with a conventional scanner. Ford was late to jump > this band wagon and it is a real shame. However, since I am Factory > Ford trained, I understand how to diagnose problems in these systems and > therefore have job security at my full time technical job. > > Talk to you later. > Ex Factory Ford Tech > Full time everything tech (currently) > Scott > What years would this be? thanks jw From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 28 21:10:16 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:10:16 -0500 Subject: air pumps Message-ID: I wanted to thank everyone that helped me with the EGR problem on the AUJP 7730 I was working on....I have a question regarding the smog pump....This particular vehicle does not have one..and of course the aujp bin thinks it is supposed to...what happens when the computer opens the switch for the air pump????Does it change how it reads the O2???I am assuming there is an area in the prom to virtually elininate this from happening,,,or do I even need to worry about it???Has anyone played with this before???I could sure use some help(again).... Thanks, Carl Summers From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Wed Jan 28 21:57:40 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:57:40 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > But, wouldn't it be great to make a low-pollution, overpowered Mustang? There was an article in Car Craft a couple of years ago about a '68 GTO. The guy who owned it also owned a testing company for automotive enviromental controls. He had the 468 big block Pontiac running in the low 11's through catalytic convertor's and passing mid 80's enviromental standards for new cars. And he was running a Holley carb. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From ludis at cruzers.com Wed Jan 28 23:55:44 1998 From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:55:44 -0500 Subject: Burned up my first chip! Message-ID: Gordon Couger wrote: > You'll burn a lot more before your done. Some are a lot more spectacular. > Like blowing a 5 amp FET of the board next to your ear or having > tantalum cap go up in flames. This reminds me of the summer I was working on DC motor controllers as an intern. A triac in our power supply failed and took a bunch of other parts with it. This tripped the circuit breaker in our power source (you know, the one in the wall.) There was a bright flash of light - three feet in the air above the circuit board. I had to go tell my boss that 60% of the world's supply of a new type of FET (prototypes...) just blew up. Before that, there was the time that my boss grabbed the motor to stop it. The motor stopped, the driver board exploded. Good thing for office chairs with wheels. Bringing this slightly back on topic, that was the summer that I learned not to disconnect power from a blown up circuit right away. It is so much easier to find the bad parts when their cases are cracked open and smoking. Shutting the power off quickly won't save any additional parts - the damage has all been done already. Ludis Langens unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; ludis at cruzers.com return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + !! NEW address !! (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} From ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca Thu Jan 29 00:05:40 1998 From: ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:05:40 -0500 Subject: air pumps Message-ID: Hi Carl Nothin will happen with the air pump disconnected. The ecm doesn't take it into account Pwm is simple lookup. No feedback Ditto for the air switch. later:peter > Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:09:30 -0800 > From: Carl Summers > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: air pumps > Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > I wanted to thank everyone that helped me with the EGR problem on the > AUJP 7730 I was working on....I have a question regarding the smog > pump....This particular vehicle does not have one..and of course the > aujp bin thinks it is supposed to...what happens when the computer opens > the switch for the air pump????Does it change how it reads the O2???I am > assuming there is an area in the prom to virtually elininate this from > happening,,,or do I even need to worry about it???Has anyone played with > this before???I could sure use some help(again).... > Thanks, > Carl Summers > > From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Thu Jan 29 00:23:16 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:23:16 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: >enviromental controls. He had the 468 big block Pontiac running in the >low 11's through catalytic convertor's and passing mid 80's enviromental >standards for new cars. Me, I see no reason for high performance, with emmissions compliance. Especially since the testing is done at idle... that leaves a lot of flexibility (true, not as much as a 196x car with _no_ emissions), and for my mid-engine vehicle, that's why I didn't mind taking a shot with a 1986 Buick V6 - looking at the GN/GNX/TTA guys, they pull 11's regularly with cats, so its doable. Plus, if my project weighs less... about 1000 less... thats even more opportunity for high performance through a cat. That's one of the major reasons why I like the idea of "DIYEFI" more and more... you can program your ECM to perform several ways if you put the effort into it... legal street emissions with reasonable performance, and high performance on the track. Dual purpose in every can. >And he was running a Holley carb. Kewl :) BTW, I had a 66 GTO in High School :) Convertible :) One of my favorite cars :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From clsnyde at ibm.net Thu Jan 29 00:30:41 1998 From: clsnyde at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:30:41 -0500 Subject: Gm MPU Message-ID: peter paul fenske wrote: > > HI Guys and Gals > > All the gm code I have seen C3, P4, and PCm dissembles quite > nicely with a HC11 dissembler > > I have Sim6811 if you like > > There is a nice windows package UMPS which also > does a host of processors. Unfortunately my demo has > timed out.. > sTART YOUR COMPUTER, CHANGE THE DATE BACK TO "IN TIME" DATE, START THE PROGRAM, AND CHANGE THE DATE BACK TO TODAY'S DATE. Sorry for the caps, I accidentally hit the cap lock and I'm too lazy to retype it. _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 29 00:55:38 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:55:38 -0500 Subject: business idea Message-ID: Tregacorp wrote: > > Hello, > > Just wanted to run an idea by you. > > Ok, I am sick of working 9-5 and want to work for myself. I have > been researching starting a home business, and came up with the following > idea. > > Providing people with a consulting service for the purchase of new and > used cars. Basically for a fee, evaluate used cars with the customer, and > give them an honest evaluation based on blue book value, my experiences, and > internet resources. Currently there are sites, where you can see the accident > history of any car, by the VIN number. I would also offer reports on used > vehicles online via the internet, using newsgroup resources and other internet > sites. Basically I would be compiling information that other people do not > have time for. Future plans include a mobile repair van, and maybe a > windshield repair operation. I am planning on doing this part time, until I > am secure in leaving my current job. > > Do you think people would pay to have this information? > > What would you pay to have this information? > > Is there someone else doing this, that I don't know about in the area? > > Thank you for your time, > Kevin It sounds like a reasonable idea,but it also seems this would have to be an almost free service if planning it for the internet,,,,at that point all you can hope for is to have someone like Bill Gates take notice and want to buy it,,,, just my 2 cents worth.... -Carl Summers From nacelp at bright.net Thu Jan 29 00:59:47 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:59:47 -0500 Subject: air pumps Message-ID: ref: Carl Summers 7730 Air Pump Last material I had was that during warm up the air pumps "air" was injected at the exhaust manifolds to help with "afterburning" the rich cold start mixture, this was to quicken the heating of the O2 sensor. Once "warm" (coolant temp) the ecm would switch the air valve so that the air pump discharge was diverted to the center section of a monolithic converter, or upstream on a pellet type converter. With the O2 cold there would be no "readable difference" in O2v.. When warm it would be downstream, again no O2 difference. The only connection my diagram shows is F2 for grounding the air select solenoid, so I'd venture a quess of 200 ohm resistor to 12v would solve that. Might double check the OEM solenoid's tend to be 90 ohm. Generally doubling the resistance has worked for me, on other items, to turn off diagnostics when code not available. Any one else's input?. HTH Bruce Flu season warning: cone shaped hats do not resist virus or bacterial transferrs From nacelp at bright.net Thu Jan 29 01:26:50 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:26:50 -0500 Subject: ReBurned up a chip ha.. Message-ID: This goes way back to 64, I believe. Was in HS, and running electric slot cars, was experimenting with a low r. motor. Hit the on switch, and the lights went out. OK check breakers (had done this drill before), Hmmm breakers good, go upstairs and the neighborhood is dark (really gettin scareyyy). Turn on the emergency radio, and the whole eastern seaboard is darkened. Took several days for the power to come back on. Spent many sleepless nights thinking I was the straw that broke the camels back. Was waitin for the electric co detectives to show up, hey give a kid a break. Still don't like 110. Wound up being a problem at a Niagra Falls Generating station, as I recall. Bruce Pre Cone hatted story. From stucky at interaccess.com Thu Jan 29 01:27:12 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:27:12 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: Tim Raymond wrote: > > >Oh Yeah!! You'll need the oxygen sensor in the exhaust. Very important > >to closed loop operation and saving your pocket book from melting down > >catalytic converters. > > > >The power steering pressure switch could be eliminated, but you might > >want this with power steering. > > > >E-mail me if you have any specific questions > > > >Scott > I have a couple of questions. Do I need the cats or can I ditch those. I > have no emmisions tests to pass and as far as I know NY has no emmissions > requirements for earlier cars. I'm planning on removing thermactor air. I > think I'll keep the EGR. It wont hurt, but I don't think I have the vacumn > regulator or solenoid or whatever it is. I can't find very clear info on the > manuals I have. Where is the BAP mounted, I may or may not have that. I am > also missing O2 sensors. I assume any junkyard O2 sensors will work. I'm not > quite sure what to do about exhaust. Currently the car is stock '72 single > exhaust. The '90 has headers. Third and final big problem is fuel delivery. > Probably an inline pump, but I'll have to add a return line. I presently > have the engine mostly disassembled so any mods here are easy. As soon as it > warms up around here I can get to the car and find out more. Well, thanks > for any help. It is going to be badly needed The O2 sensor: don't get a used one. New ones should be less than $100. You can buy aftermarket adapters to weld onto the headers to mount the sensor. The fuel pump on the 90 is a high pressure in tank. That swap would not be practical. See if you can find an in-line pump in the aftermarket. The fuel system operates at aprox. 40 psi. The fuel pump should probably be able to deliver 60-80psi or more. I had one Ford with a bad pressure regulator peg my gage at 100psi. Yes, you will need a return line. The setup at the fuel rail should already be there. Depending on the fuel line already in the car, you may need to use high pressure fuel line for the feed side. Normal rubber fuel hose doesn't hold up to 40psi+ very well. OK... Now I have a diagram in front of me. The components you definately need: O2 sensors (my diagram for a 90 shows 2, one in each manifold/header) ECT, TPS, ACT MAP/BARO & MAF (my diagram shows both) Idle air bypass solenoid EEC power relay Fuel pump relay The components you may need: EGR valve EGR Vacuum regulator Clutch/Neutral switch Optional components: Canister Purge components. AC wide open throttle relay Power steering pressure switch NOTE!!!! There is a 22K ohm resistor in line on the IDM circuit. Between the TFI IV ignition module and pin 4 of the PCM. If you want a copy of the wiring diagrams, or If you want to know what year engine managmeny system will be easier (and work) with a 72/90... Let me know. I might even be able to get you a deal on quality aftermarket parts (ie. sensors) if you needed a handful of new ones. Let me know. Scott From stucky at interaccess.com Thu Jan 29 01:36:30 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:36:30 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: James Weiler wrote: > > On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Scott Shotton wrote: > > > The power steering pressure switch could be eliminated, but you might > > want this with power steering. > > > > E-mail me if you have any specific questions > > > > Scott > > > I didn't know the 5.0 '89-92 had a power steering pressure switch. Can > you confirm? > > thanks > jw I just checked a wiring diagram and I don't see one. Later. Scott From stucky at interaccess.com Thu Jan 29 01:40:54 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:40:54 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: James Weiler wrote: > > On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Scott Shotton wrote: > > > Reccomendation: check into a later model ford EEC IV engine management > > system that has a data stream. That way you can watch values and > > diagnose problems with a conventional scanner. Ford was late to jump > > this band wagon and it is a real shame. However, since I am Factory > > Ford trained, I understand how to diagnose problems in these systems and > > therefore have job security at my full time technical job. > > > > Talk to you later. > > Ex Factory Ford Tech > > Full time everything tech (currently) > > Scott > > > What years would this be? > thanks > jw The only way to really tell is to plug a scanner in and see if you have the option of a data line. There is no written text on this subject. That I know of at least. If I were a betting man, I would say that almost all Fords had it by 1994 model year. Some were earlier and some were later. By 96 (OBDII) all have it. But 94 is a safe bet for a Mustang. If one rolls into the shop, I'll check and let you know if I find something different. Scott From stucky at interaccess.com Thu Jan 29 01:43:09 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:43:09 -0500 Subject: air pumps Message-ID: Carl Summers wrote: > > I wanted to thank everyone that helped me with the EGR problem on the > AUJP 7730 I was working on....I have a question regarding the smog > pump....This particular vehicle does not have one..and of course the > aujp bin thinks it is supposed to...what happens when the computer opens > the switch for the air pump????Does it change how it reads the O2???I am > assuming there is an area in the prom to virtually elininate this from > happening,,,or do I even need to worry about it???Has anyone played with > this before???I could sure use some help(again).... > Thanks, > Carl Summers I think the only time the air is dumped upstream is before closed loop... no effect on O2. During closed loop it goes downstream of the O2... again, no effect. Scott From stucky at interaccess.com Thu Jan 29 01:44:37 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:44:37 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: Joe Boucher wrote: > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > But, wouldn't it be great to make a low-pollution, overpowered Mustang? > > There was an article in Car Craft a couple of years ago about a '68 > GTO. The guy who owned it also owned a testing company for automotive > enviromental controls. He had the 468 big block Pontiac running in the > low 11's through catalytic convertor's and passing mid 80's enviromental > standards for new cars. > > And he was running a Holley carb. > > Joe Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban The honeycomb style substrate of modern cats pose no exhaust restriction. Early bead style GM's on the other hand.... Scott From stucky at interaccess.com Thu Jan 29 01:52:12 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:52:12 -0500 Subject: air pumps Message-ID: bruce plecan wrote: > > ref: Carl Summers 7730 Air Pump > Last material I had was that during warm up the air pumps > "air" was injected at the exhaust manifolds to help with > "afterburning" the rich cold start mixture, this was to quicken > the heating of the O2 sensor. Once "warm" (coolant temp) > the ecm would switch the air valve so that the air pump > discharge was diverted to the center section of a monolithic > converter, or upstream on a pellet type converter. > With the O2 cold there would be no "readable difference" > in O2v.. When warm it would be downstream, again no > O2 difference. > The only connection my diagram shows is F2 for grounding the > air select solenoid, so I'd venture a quess of 200 ohm resistor to > 12v would solve that. Might double check the OEM solenoid's > tend to be 90 ohm. Generally doubling the resistance has worked > for me, on other items, to turn off diagnostics when code not > available. > Any one else's input?. > HTH Bruce Flu season warning: cone shaped hats > do not resist virus or bacterial transferrs The other air pump "mode" (if you will) is to dump. Especially during cold decel. Lots of HC mixed with air (O2) in an exhaust manifold starting to get hot= exhaust manifolds blowin off the sides of the block. What Fun! From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 29 01:54:51 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:54:51 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: Scott Shotton wrote: > > Tim Raymond wrote: > > > > >Oh Yeah!! You'll need the oxygen sensor in the exhaust. Very important > > >to closed loop operation and saving your pocket book from melting down > > >catalytic converters. > > > > > >The power steering pressure switch could be eliminated, but you might > > >want this with power steering. > > > > > >E-mail me if you have any specific questions > > > > > >Scott > > I have a couple of questions. Do I need the cats or can I ditch those. I > > have no emmisions tests to pass and as far as I know NY has no emmissions > > requirements for earlier cars. I'm planning on removing thermactor air. I > > think I'll keep the EGR. It wont hurt, but I don't think I have the vacumn > > regulator or solenoid or whatever it is. I can't find very clear info on the > > manuals I have. Where is the BAP mounted, I may or may not have that. I am > > also missing O2 sensors. I assume any junkyard O2 sensors will work. I'm not > > quite sure what to do about exhaust. Currently the car is stock '72 single > > exhaust. The '90 has headers. Third and final big problem is fuel delivery. > > Probably an inline pump, but I'll have to add a return line. I presently > > have the engine mostly disassembled so any mods here are easy. As soon as it > > warms up around here I can get to the car and find out more. Well, thanks > > for any help. It is going to be badly needed > > The O2 sensor: don't get a used one. New ones should be less than > $100. You can buy aftermarket adapters to weld onto the headers to > mount the sensor. > > The fuel pump on the 90 is a high pressure in tank. That swap would not > be practical. See if you can find an in-line pump in the aftermarket. > The fuel system operates at aprox. 40 psi. The fuel pump should > probably be able to deliver 60-80psi or more. I had one Ford with a bad > pressure regulator peg my gage at 100psi. Yes, you will need a return > line. The setup at the fuel rail should already be there. Depending on > the fuel line already in the car, you may need to use high pressure fuel > line for the feed side. Normal rubber fuel hose doesn't hold up to > 40psi+ very well. > > OK... Now I have a diagram in front of me. > > The components you definately need: > O2 sensors (my diagram for a 90 shows 2, one in each manifold/header) > ECT, TPS, ACT > MAP/BARO & MAF (my diagram shows both) > Idle air bypass solenoid > EEC power relay > Fuel pump relay > > The components you may need: > EGR valve > EGR Vacuum regulator > Clutch/Neutral switch > > Optional components: > Canister Purge components. > AC wide open throttle relay > Power steering pressure switch > > NOTE!!!! There is a 22K ohm resistor in line on the IDM circuit. > Between the TFI IV ignition module and pin 4 of the PCM. > > If you want a copy of the wiring diagrams, or If you want to know what > year engine managmeny system will be easier (and work) with a 72/90... > Let me know. > > I might even be able to get you a deal on quality aftermarket parts (ie. > sensors) if you needed a handful of new ones. > > Let me know. > > Scott Regarding the 02 sensor bung,,,it is an 18mm spark plug thread,,,,You can use a nut(just make sure it is short enough) or I have used a spark plug non-fouler and cut it to length,then weld on and chase threads,,,,hope this helps... -Carl Summers From stucky at interaccess.com Thu Jan 29 02:00:34 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:00:34 -0500 Subject: linux mall: linux CDs for $5 Message-ID: steve ravet wrote: > > The Linux mall has linux CDs for free, you pay shipping ($5 in the US). > You can chose from: > Debian, Linux Pro by WGS, OpenLinux by Caldera, Red Hat Linux, or > Slackware > > See http://www.LinuxMall.com/FreeCD.html > > -- > Steve Ravet > International Meta Systems > http://www.imes.com > steve at imes.com I appolagize but I have no Idea what you are talking about. If you are on a fuel injection topic, and I don't understand, I have the urge to investigate. Maybe it is a stupid question, but: What is linux? What does it do? What is it for? sorry, that's three questions. Thanks. From rwebb at polarnet.com Thu Jan 29 02:54:20 1998 From: rwebb at polarnet.com (Ron & Cathy Webb) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:54:20 -0500 Subject: ReBurned up a chip ha.. Message-ID: bruce plecan wrote: > This goes way back to 64, I believe. > Spent many sleepless nights thinking I was the straw that > broke the > camels back. Was waitin for the electric co detectives to > show up, Sooo - you were the one...J Edgar and I looked for years... Once when I was a 20 year old in the USAF (circa 1974), I was told to "spit shine" the inside of a RADAR cabinet for an inspection. I Turned off all the breakers, and went in with the shorting rod to discharge all the capacitors in the power supply. Got to a "feed through" that always was good for a little blue spark, said to the guy I was working with "watch this" -- BIG blue spark, followed by blindness, followed by the realization that I could see fine, it was just very dark. I had taken the entire base off the air, along with part of the town of Blaine Washington. From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Thu Jan 29 03:14:37 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:14:37 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: >The honeycomb style substrate of modern cats pose no exhaust >restriction. Early bead style GM's on the other hand.... Very true... a lot of the aftermarket cats are also non-restrictive. The practice of boring out the center with a 2" drill bit also works - leaves some cat material, reducing its effectiveness, but doesn't kill it entirely, so I've been told. Hey, I just like drilling holes :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Thu Jan 29 03:14:38 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:14:38 -0500 Subject: business idea Message-ID: >> Providing people with a consulting service for the purchase of new and >> used cars. Basically for a fee, evaluate used cars with the customer, and >> give them an honest evaluation based on blue book value, my experiences, and This exists, at least in the NY/tri-state area. My mom had used such a service when she bought a used Mercury Topaz, the came and helped negotiate the deal, inspected the vehicle and listed all the not-so obvious things that should be fixed before the car was accepted by my mom. I don't remember the cost, but I think it was in the $55-$65 range. The person who assisted my mom spent probably 45 minutes to an hour tops. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From clsnyde at ibm.net Thu Jan 29 03:38:44 1998 From: clsnyde at ibm.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:38:44 -0500 Subject: business idea Message-ID: Carl Summers wrote: > > Tregacorp wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > Just wanted to run an idea by you. > > > > Ok, I am sick of working 9-5 and want to work for myself. I have > > been researching starting a home business, and came up with the following > > idea. > > > > Providing people with a consulting service for the purchase of new and > > used cars. Basically for a fee, evaluate used cars with the customer, and > > give them an honest evaluation based on blue book value, my experiences, and > > internet resources. Currently there are sites, where you can see the accident > > history of any car, by the VIN number. I would also offer reports on used > > vehicles online via the internet, using newsgroup resources and other internet > > sites. Basically I would be compiling information that other people do not > > have time for. Future plans include a mobile repair van, and maybe a > > windshield repair operation. I am planning on doing this part time, until I > > am secure in leaving my current job. > > > > Do you think people would pay to have this information? > > > > What would you pay to have this information? > > > > Is there someone else doing this, that I don't know about in the area? > > > > Thank you for your time, > > Kevin > > It sounds like a reasonable idea,but it also seems this would have to be > an almost free service if planning it for the internet,,,,at that point > all you can hope for is to have someone like Bill Gates take notice and > want to buy it,,,, > just my 2 cents worth.... > -Carl Summers It's hard enough to get people to pay for repairs and other needed services - selling information, although theoretically a goldmine, is, in practice, a pile of Pyrite. Although an automotive purchace is likely the second largest single purchase in a person's life, and in aggregate likely the largest drain on a person's finances, it is likely the hardest field to make money on in information brokering. As for mobile service, again it sounds good, but everyone I know who has tried it has gone under. In milder climates it MAY be easier, but still no great guns. As for windshield repair - I don't know about where you live, but up here the market is super-saturated. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From fagunddj at tuns.ca Thu Jan 29 04:15:55 1998 From: fagunddj at tuns.ca (Dennis J Fagundo) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:15:55 -0500 Subject: 68HC11 powerful enough??? Message-ID: I have am working with a small group on developing a microcontroller based electronic ignition and fuel injection system for a go-kart (small 2-stroke, 100cc, 10,000rpm). I have seen numerous examples of using the motorola 68hc11 for both of these applications seperately but I would like to combine the function within a single processor. Is this chip fast enough to handle the real time lookups and calcs for both of these functions, both being time critical? Thanks Dennis ________________________________________________ Dennis Fagundo fagunddj at tuns.ca dfagundo at ibl.bm http://www.tuns.ca/~fagunddj Technical University of Nova Scotia _______________________________________________ From tcraymond at email.msn.com Thu Jan 29 04:48:35 1998 From: tcraymond at email.msn.com (Tim Raymond) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:48:35 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: >If you want a copy of the wiring diagrams, or If you want to know what >year engine managmeny system will be easier (and work) with a 72/90... >Let me know. > >I might even be able to get you a deal on quality aftermarket parts (ie. >sensors) if you needed a handful of new ones. > >Let me know. > >Scott I appreciate the help. I have wiring diagrams for the 90, but the are not that detailed. Only ford part numbers, no resistance values. The more information I can get my hands on the better. As far as parts go, I'm definately going to need the O2 sensors and probably some other parts so any help there would be great. Thanks again for the help. Tim From dapiper at access.one.net Thu Jan 29 06:07:07 1998 From: dapiper at access.one.net (TurboDave) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:07:07 -0500 Subject: ReBurned up a chip ha.. Message-ID: I was about 10 when I thought (maybe thats the wrong word...obsessed) I needed a bigger electromagnet for my magnetic eductor gun. Wound all the magnet wire off a deflection yoke onto the biggest bolt I cud find and plugged it into main. Boy that made a lot of noise at 60 Hz lying on my workbench. Had one hand on the plug just in case....reaction time measured in nanosec. One thing that's saved me all these years...you gotta have a safety valve....just in case reality overcomes theory. TurboDave From wenning.motorsport at t-online.de Thu Jan 29 09:51:00 1998 From: wenning.motorsport at t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 04:51:00 -0500 Subject: Subaru & OBD2 ??? Message-ID: Ron & Cathy Webb schrieb: > I think the address you want is Subaru (Japanese) . It is in > japanese, but there are pictures, binary dumps, and even a > Mitsubishi MELPS 7700 (the microcontroller used) disassembler. > Concentrate a while, and a lot can be deciphered. > > There are demo tools for this uC available on the net (Assembler, > C compiler, and simulator I've found) > > What do you mean by "do the electronics" ? If you get down to the > level of attacking the hardware configuration of the ECU, or > reprogramming, we can talk further... Thank you for your information. I have to get performance out of the electronics of the standard 2.0l engine and afterwards I have to fit the ignition and injection maps to an aftermarket supercharger. Do you know where the maps are stored? Does the processor use an internal or an external Rom? I?ve already ordered the data sheet for this processor. It shouldn?t be a problem to read the maps from an internal rom. As the ECU is programable by obd2-interface I think there?s an external flash memory inside. I have not seen the car yet. Do you know which eprom there?s inside? Can you give me the japanese web-address from subaru? I couldn?t find it. Thank you. Regards Alex. From gcouger at ionet.net Thu Jan 29 10:08:03 1998 From: gcouger at ionet.net (Gordon Couger) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 05:08:03 -0500 Subject: 68HC11 powerful enough??? Message-ID: > >I have am working with a small group on developing a microcontroller based >electronic ignition and fuel injection system for a go-kart (small >2-stroke, 100cc, 10,000rpm). > >I have seen numerous examples of using the motorola 68hc11 for both of >these applications seperately but I would like to combine the function >within a single processor. Is this chip fast enough to handle the real >time lookups and calcs for both of these functions, both being time >critical? It should do both with no trouble go for the 12 MHz version at ten grand you have to move fast. On a one lunger you shouldn't have any real problem. Good luck Gordon Gordon Couger 624 Cheyenne Stillwater, OK 74075 405 624-2855 GMT -6:00 From mpc at genevaonline.com Thu Jan 29 14:01:58 1998 From: mpc at genevaonline.com (Squash) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:01:58 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: You can also purchase it from jegs. Look in the holley pro-jection section. Its like 6 bucks or so. It works nicely! -- Andy Quaas From pfenske at direct.ca Thu Jan 29 14:25:21 1998 From: pfenske at direct.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:25:21 -0500 Subject: 68HC11 powerful enough??? Message-ID: Hya all I think the best article about HC11 actually a HC12 was in Circuit Cellar a few years ago. Check the DIY archives a few years ago. A chap built the controller fer a motorbike motor. later:peter At 04:07 AM 1/29/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >> >>I have am working with a small group on developing a microcontroller based >>electronic ignition and fuel injection system for a go-kart (small >>2-stroke, 100cc, 10,000rpm). >> >>I have seen numerous examples of using the motorola 68hc11 for both of >>these applications seperately but I would like to combine the function >>within a single processor. Is this chip fast enough to handle the real >>time lookups and calcs for both of these functions, both being time >>critical? > > >It should do both with no trouble go for the 12 MHz version at ten grand >you have to move fast. On a one lunger you shouldn't have any >real problem. > >Good luck >Gordon > >Gordon Couger >624 Cheyenne >Stillwater, OK 74075 >405 624-2855 GMT -6:00 > > > From bruno at icd.teradyne.com Thu Jan 29 15:13:58 1998 From: bruno at icd.teradyne.com (Christopher Bruno) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:13:58 -0500 Subject: ReBurned up a chip ha.. Message-ID: TurboDave wrote: > > I was about 10 when I thought (maybe thats the wrong word...obsessed) I > needed a bigger electromagnet for my magnetic eductor gun. Wound all > the magnet wire off a deflection yoke onto the biggest bolt I cud find > and plugged it into main. Boy that made a lot of noise at 60 Hz lying > on my workbench. Had one hand on the plug just in case....reaction time > measured in nanosec. One thing that's saved me all these years...you > gotta have a safety valve....just in case reality overcomes theory. > > TurboDave Heh, that reminds me of a story when I was bout the same age. I thought that if the little tiny filament in the lightbulb didn't burn out just because the filament was encased in gas, then using a more 'robust' filament would easily be able to light up without a bulb. So a took some lamp cord and at the open ends put about 1 sheet of folded up tin-foil. Plugged her in and 'KABOOM'. Scared me shitless. Gave my parents a lot of gray hairs that day... -- Christopher Bruno Teradyne 321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 Boston, MA 02118 617.422.2040 Office 617.422.2304 Fax bruno at icd.teradyne.com From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Thu Jan 29 15:48:51 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:48:51 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: > Depending on > the fuel line already in the car, you may need to use high pressure fuel > line for the feed side. Normal rubber fuel hose doesn't hold up to > 40psi+ very well. > Don't worry, you WILL have to replace the rubber fuel hose. There is more than one standard for this line but use fuel line manufactured to SAE J 30R9 standard. It will have that stamped on the hose. And use this type on the return line also. I don't know about the other standard I've seen. Just make sure it has a working pressure of 100 psi. Use that hose type with two clamps on each connection with the clamp screws 180 degrees from each other. You'll have no worries, mate. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From steve at imes.com Thu Jan 29 15:56:36 1998 From: steve at imes.com (steve ravet) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:56:36 -0500 Subject: linux mall: linux CDs for $5 Message-ID: Scott Shotton wrote: > > steve ravet wrote: > > > > The Linux mall has linux CDs for free, you pay shipping ($5 in the US). > > You can chose from: > > Debian, Linux Pro by WGS, OpenLinux by Caldera, Red Hat Linux, or > > Slackware > > > > See http://www.LinuxMall.com/FreeCD.html > > I appolagize but I have no Idea what you are talking about. If you are > on a fuel injection topic, and I don't understand, I have the urge to > investigate. Maybe it is a stupid question, but: > > What is linux? What does it do? What is it for? > > sorry, that's three questions. > > Thanks. Maybe I should have just sent that to the EFI332 list. The EFI332 project is being developed mostly under Linux, which is a freely available unix clone for PCs. Think of it as a replacement for Microsoft Windows. Not really EFI related, but it is EFI332 related, and I figured people on this list might also be interested. That's it... --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve at imes.com From peter at zeecube.com Thu Jan 29 16:34:50 1998 From: peter at zeecube.com (Peter Shoebridge) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:34:50 -0500 Subject: ISO 9141 Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BD2C99.12F311A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey all, Is 9141 just a different electrical standard, or do the message formats = differ? If so, where (and I'm prepared to pay for it) do I get the = details. I already have HS-3000 from SAE but I can't find the details of = 9141 on either their web site or ISO. Any clues? Peter ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BD2C99.12F311A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey all,
 
Is 9141 just a different electrical = standard, or=20 do the message formats differ? If so, where (and I'm prepared to pay for = it) do=20 I get the details. I already have HS-3000 from SAE but I can't find the = details=20 of 9141 on either their web site or ISO.
 
Any clues?
 
Peter
 
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BD2C99.12F311A0-- From nacelp at bright.net Thu Jan 29 16:56:33 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:56:33 -0500 Subject: drag race carolla update kinda long? Message-ID: Duane Reed: Ref the 148 749 ecm guestions the 148 uses hall sensors for crank, and cam, the 749 uses a reluctor/mag distributor Both use sat injectors. 148 uses ESC (seperate black box) for knock detection 749 has it in memcal 148 does have rev limiter, and speed limiter 148 uses 2,000 pulse per mile vehicle speed sensor 749 I do believe uses 40 tooth reluctor 148 has egr valve vac. source diagnostics. 749 MAP, 148 MAF 749 chip burner is sharewared at SYTY web site Only known current vendor for 148 is Steve Cole The Turbo Shop Modern Muscle discontinued their sales of it. TCC and advance program for 148 sharewared at GN TType site called Tweaker, If someone out there does know the diagnostics locations for turning them off, I'd really appreciate a copy. HTH Bruce Probably should have started wearing cone shaped hat after '64 incident. Jus prior to major power outage tested the wall socket impedance with a analog meter, needle had 3 bends in it, after testing. From nacelp at bright.net Thu Jan 29 17:02:28 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:02:28 -0500 Subject: ReBurned up a chip ha.. Message-ID: methinks there are are other qualified cone shaped hat candidates, or at least worth honorary mentions... From nacelp at bright.net Thu Jan 29 18:09:16 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:09:16 -0500 Subject: drag race carolla update kinda long? Message-ID: Ref the 148: I couldn't find any self diagnostic mention for TCC, engine fan, IAC, or Purge Soleniod. Not having a load for the IAC might put it in a tail spin, cause it will try to control the idle. On some "custom" applications excessive hunting for idle speed happens. On the GN TTA throttle body the IAC, screws into a "adapter" that bolts to the manifold. the has channels that bypass the butterfly. The ECM will try to move the timing, and mixture around to prevent stalls, in addtion to IAC. If your car has a distributor I'd look first at the 749, if DIS then I'd look at the 148, and figure out what signal conditioning might be needed if it uses other than hall effect switches, for the DIS. The 148 has a location for injector sizing, and would imagine the same for the 749. The 749 program at SYTY ya gotta have win95, and JAVA. If someone knows of a 3.1 version somewhere I'd like to know (SYTY members, don't know of one, either). HTH Bruce Still looking for 90-92 F-Body (V-8) bin files. From Billy_McCord at whittman-hart.com Thu Jan 29 18:12:41 1998 From: Billy_McCord at whittman-hart.com (Billy_McCord at whittman-hart.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:12:41 -0500 Subject: linux mall: linux CDs for $5 Message-ID: Linux is a "Unix Like" operating system for the IBM Compatable PC that is end user supported "shareware if you will" written by a guy named Linus hence Linus/Unix = LINUX Very robust little OS, that is good for hackin around etc... tons of software written for it many commercial Unix programs will run on a linux system. Some versions are easer to install than others. Thanks Billy stucky at interaccess.com on 01/27/98 09:25:41 PM Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: (bcc: Billy McCord/Whittman-Hart LP) Subject: Re: linux mall: linux CDs for $5 steve ravet wrote: > > The Linux mall has linux CDs for free, you pay shipping ($5 in the US). > You can chose from: > Debian, Linux Pro by WGS, OpenLinux by Caldera, Red Hat Linux, or > Slackware > > See http://www.LinuxMall.com/FreeCD.html > > -- > Steve Ravet > International Meta Systems > http://www.imes.com > steve at imes.com I appolagize but I have no Idea what you are talking about. If you are on a fuel injection topic, and I don't understand, I have the urge to investigate. Maybe it is a stupid question, but: What is linux? What does it do? What is it for? sorry, that's three questions. Thanks. From lndshrk at xmission.com Thu Jan 29 18:24:00 1998 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:24:00 -0500 Subject: ISO 9141 Message-ID: At 09:34 AM 1/29/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hey all, > >Is 9141 just a different electrical standard, or do the message formats differ? If so, where (and I'm prepared to pay for it) do I get the details. I already have HS-3000 from SAE but I can't find the details of 9141 on either their web site or ISO. Umm ISO standard 9141 is most certainly available from the American National Standards Institute.. ANSI.. If you are trying to do OBD-II stuff over ISO-9141, the product already exists and is cheap.. ISO-9141 and 9141/2 (aka 9141/CARB) are merely the base protocols for communication.. from there one of any one of a number of "Keyword Protocols" developed by the OEM's are used.. and they are proprietary.. Only the basic OBD-II stuff is "standard" and "available" Jim C. From askulte at emerald.tufts.edu Thu Jan 29 20:18:37 1998 From: askulte at emerald.tufts.edu (Andris) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:18:37 -0500 Subject: cyberdyne speed calibration box Message-ID: I'm planning on putting a T-56 tranny into my IROC as part of the twin turbo project, and would need to calibrate the VSS signal for my speedometer. As far as I know, it works on pulses per mile. I know the cyberdyne box lets you adjust this, but costs $100. Is there a circuit that I could build that will do this? Thanks everyone :) ********************Skulte Performance Designs******************** Andris Skulte askulte at tufts.edu http://www.eecs.tufts.edu/~askulte (617)627-1601 89 IROC M5 305 TPI 320 hp / 470 ft-lbs Leave late, drive faster, still get there first. ;) From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 29 21:24:12 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:24:12 -0500 Subject: 68HC11 powerful enough??? Message-ID: Dennis J Fagundo wrote: > > I have am working with a small group on developing a microcontroller based > electronic ignition and fuel injection system for a go-kart (small > 2-stroke, 100cc, 10,000rpm). > > I have seen numerous examples of using the motorola 68hc11 for both of > these applications seperately but I would like to combine the function > within a single processor. Dennis, I would think so since the 68hc11 does the fuel,timing and transmission on the 93-95 chev trucks.... -Carl Summers From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Thu Jan 29 22:36:58 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:36:58 -0500 Subject: cyberdyne speed calibration box Message-ID: Andris wrote: > > I'm planning on putting a T-56 tranny into my IROC as part of the twin > turbo project, and would need to calibrate the VSS signal for my > speedometer. As far as I know, it works on pulses per mile. I know the > cyberdyne box lets you adjust this, but costs $100. Is there a circuit > that I could build that will do this? Thanks everyone :) > > ********************Skulte Performance Designs******************** > Andris Skulte askulte at tufts.edu http://www.eecs.tufts.edu/~askulte > (617)627-1601 89 IROC M5 305 TPI 320 hp / 470 ft-lbs > > Leave late, drive faster, still get there first. ;) If there is I'd like to know it also. I ran into the speedometer wall when I did my conversion on the Suburban. VSS signal into the ecu is either 2000 pulses per mile or 4000. The trannies with the reluctor wheel and sensor coil are the 4000 and the trannies that output through a mechanical speedo cable are the basis for the 2000 pulse systems. The speedo system is a led bouncing light off a shiny arm in the back of the speedometer. The 4000 pulse system takes the reluctor and coil ac signal and converts it to a pulsed or on/off 12 volt DC signal. One of the sparkies here said $20 at Rat Shack could buy enough parts to make a circuit to do that. But he didn't offer to help. With forty teeth, that would mean 40 peaks every turn of the tranny output shaft. Right? Getting from there to an on/off signal is beyond me. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From steve.fargher at computerland.co.nz Thu Jan 29 22:53:09 1998 From: steve.fargher at computerland.co.nz (Steve Fargher) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:53:09 -0500 Subject: subaru sites... Message-ID: Hi there, I can't remember who wanted the Subaru sites, but here are some... http://www.subaru.cy.net/ This is Subaru is Cypress, a really good general info site... but it seems to be in the process of being rebuilt at the mo.... http://www.subaru-fhi.co.jp/ This is the official Japanese site (tho written in Japanese as well!) this has some cool pics, links to STi and their motorsport mag http://www.rallysport.com/subaru/subaru.htm This site belongs to a rally team in the Netherlands who are preparing a WRX for rallying... they may be able to provide more technical information http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~turbo/subaru.htm A private "shrine" to the WRX, but has a few good links. http://www.subaru.net/ another private page with some service related links. The best place to go would probably be Fuji Heavy Industries themselves, however, I can't find their web site.... Hope this helps! Regards, Steve. p.s. In New Zealand, a 4WD WRX/Legacy is the ultimate car to have!!! From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 29 23:02:10 1998 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:02:10 -0500 Subject: Subaru & OBD2 ??? Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:50:19 +0100 > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Subaru & OBD2 ??? > From: wenning.motorsport at t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) > Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > I have to do the electronics of the new Subaru Impreza 2.0l (85 kW). I saw some weeks ago a > web address in this list with many informations about the OBD2 in this car. > > Has anybody ever programmed the Subaru via interface or has anybody developed a tool to do > that? > > Can somebody tell me the web address again? Thank you. > > Regards > > Alex Wenning > wenning.motorsport at t-online.de > I can develope interface unit to read obd II data such as fuel trim if you need this to control your devices. Also have intercept unit for MIL light and trouble codes and signal modifier units. Can have prototype board in 2 weeks. Can also supply a OBD decoder to help decode dealer programming data, if they use it. CARB certification and emission data available. Alex From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 29 23:02:13 1998 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:02:13 -0500 Subject: GM 16pin Diagnostic Socket Message-ID: > From: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:47:40 +0000 > Subject: GM 16pin Diagnostic Socket > Priority: normal > Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > I have a 1996 GM 2.0L 16V that has a 16 pin diagnostic > socket. > > - Does this 16pin socket mean its got OBDII, does the old 10pin > ALDL socket not have OBDII ? Was this 10 pin socket predominantly > used with Bosch ECUs and early SimTec ? When and with what ECU's was > the 16 pin socket introduced ? > > - Anybody have any example freeware/shareware that can drive the diagnostics with a > laptop PC that they could e-mail me ? > > - I am looking to write my own diagnostic/programming software, > anybody have any advice ? > > - Anybody know where could I purchase a plug for the16 pin socket to connect it to a PC ? > > Martin > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > martin at mgass.demon.co.uk > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > I wrote scan tool program three years ago based on J1979 it looks like carcomp since uses tabbed folders. Interface was also based on SAE schematic. Have ISO 9141 and VPW. ISO 9141 is just 10.4 Kb rs232 so can probably connect straight to computer. I did get some sample connectors from DELPHI, the last I heard, they only sell a complete connector about $50.00 ? Some spade connectors will work Alex From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 29 23:03:09 1998 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:03:09 -0500 Subject: Altering ECU Code/Data - GM16 pin OBD-II Message-ID: > From: martin at mgass.demon.co.uk > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:36:28 +0000 > Subject: Altering ECU Code/Data - GM16 pin OBD-II > Priority: normal > Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > I want to know how to alter parameters on this complicated (surface > mount EEPROM type) ECU. (SimTec) > > So far I have found out the following :. > > - Looks like Diacom is for monitoring only. > > - Query still in with CarComp Inc. > > -I know that Superchips know how to re-program via the OBD-II > interface (which by the way I think is the ISO9141-2 and not SAEJ1850 > interface 'cos only pins 3 thro 7, 12 and 16 have physical > contacts)...Note the SuperTuner.2001 looks interesting. > > - Anybody else know how to do it ?. > > - I guess my real quest is how to get a 1996 GM2litre 16V to run fully open loop > for performance reasons only. The CAT can be put back when returned to > road use. In the UK Group N ECU's were available (189bhp) for > pre-CAT early (non-EcoTech) 16V units, but not for later ones. > > Martin > ---------------------------------------------------------- > martin at mgass.demon.co.uk > ---------------------------------------------------------- > You could try a simulator circuit for O2 sensor, then offset air flow voltage. Our maybe just disconnect O2 sensor, apply voltage of 0.1 volts if needed, the computer will then reprogram itself rich. Alex From pft101 at psu.edu Thu Jan 29 23:33:43 1998 From: pft101 at psu.edu (Paul Tholey) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:33:43 -0500 Subject: cyberdyne speed calibration box Message-ID: >The 4000 pulse system takes the reluctor and coil ac signal and converts >it to a pulsed or on/off 12 volt DC signal. One of the sparkies here >said $20 at Rat Shack could buy enough parts to make a circuit to do >that. But he didn't offer to help. With forty teeth, that would mean >40 peaks every turn of the tranny output shaft. Right? Getting from >there to an on/off signal is beyond me. > >Joe Boucher >'70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban All I know is that Street and Performance S-P at juno.com say that they make the adapters. From the sound of it, it is probably at a reasonable price too. Paul Tholey From mvwilli1 at worldnet.att.net Thu Jan 29 23:47:56 1998 From: mvwilli1 at worldnet.att.net (Mike Williams) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:47:56 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: I'm building a chrysler 440 for in my 4x4 picup and would like to use sequential efi. I sent mail to Electromotive and Felpro. Have'nt heard from them yet. Right now I'm triing to decide on the cam. Called Comp cams for advice, they said most mutiport efi makers don't recommend a cam 220 degrees duration @0.050. Is this right and why? P.S. Most of the material in this group is over my head but I'm learning. Thanks to you all...Mike From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 30 01:13:33 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:13:33 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: Mike Williams wrote: > > I'm building a chrysler 440 for in my 4x4 picup and would like to use > sequential efi. I sent mail to Electromotive and Felpro. Have'nt heard > from them yet. Right now I'm triing to decide on the cam. Called Comp > cams for advice, they said most mutiport efi makers don't recommend a > cam 220 degrees duration @0.050. Is this right and why? P.S. Most of > the material in this group is over my head but I'm learning. Thanks to > you all...Mike Mike, It has been my experience that cams with too much overlap don't like to idle at 14.7 afr,,,If you have a way to adjust your afr(closed loop) at say 1000 rpm and down, it can be taken care of,,,other wise you can run as large a cam as you want,,,One other note about large cams is they tend to have very little vacuum at low rpm and right off of idle increase their efficiency dramatically causing major changes required in the map,,,and if EGR is a factor the EGR tables have to be changed accordingly(as large overlap EGR's itself under manifold vacuum) It can be a nightmare to tune. But the horsepower increase of a large cam is always nice......hope this helps.... -Carl Summers From nacelp at bright.net Fri Jan 30 01:21:22 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:21:22 -0500 Subject: cyberdyne speed calibration box Message-ID: Not a sparkie, but the few facts I know are the ones like in the trucks use a hall effect type switch so it is a on/off signal. The car types may be a a/c generator which sent the signal to a buffer. What is the tanny out of, and what type of speedometer is the host vehicle. Given that might be able to help, a little. HTH Bruce From cwebb at polarnet.com Fri Jan 30 01:39:32 1998 From: cwebb at polarnet.com (Ron & Cathy Webb) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:39:32 -0500 Subject: Subaru & OBD2 ??? Message-ID: > Do you know where the maps are stored? No, but I'm told that the owner of that web site will respond to such questions. Does the processor use an internal or an external Rom? The EEPROM Type is also there I think It is external, and there is (on his version at least) a socket for a 27C1024. Unfortunately that is an obsolete chip, and 16 bits wide- a little magic with 2 27512's and some "ttl glue" can work (again so I'm told). I?ve already ordered the data sheet for this processor. The Mitsubishi web site (can't find it at the moment, but I was there the other day...) has all the data for downloading. It shouldn?t be a problem to read the maps from an internal rom. As the ECU is programable by obd2-interface. If you succeed, I'd be interested. > Can you give me the japanese web-address from subaru? I'd be surprised if Soob's much help - the auto OEM's are intentionally cryptic sometimes.... Ron From stucky at interaccess.com Fri Jan 30 01:40:39 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:40:39 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: Tim Raymond wrote: > > >If you want a copy of the wiring diagrams, or If you want to know what > >year engine managmeny system will be easier (and work) with a 72/90... > >Let me know. > > > >I might even be able to get you a deal on quality aftermarket parts (ie. > >sensors) if you needed a handful of new ones. > > > >Let me know. > > > >Scott > I appreciate the help. I have wiring diagrams for the 90, but the are not > that detailed. Only ford part numbers, no resistance values. The more > information I can get my hands on the better. As far as parts go, I'm > definately going to need the O2 sensors and probably some other parts so any > help there would be great. Thanks again for the help. > > Tim Let me know what sensors, computer, etc. you are going to need and I'll see how much of a deal I can get you. Scott From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 30 01:51:52 1998 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:51:52 -0500 Subject: ISO 9141 Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:23:53 -0700 > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > From: Land Shark > Subject: Re: ISO 9141 > Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > At 09:34 AM 1/29/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Hey all, > > > >Is 9141 just a different electrical standard, or do the message formats differ? If so, where (and I'm prepared to pay for it) do I get the details. I already have HS-3000 from SAE but I can't find t> > Umm ISO standard 9141 is most certainly available from the American National Standards Institute.. ANSI.. > > If you are trying to do OBD-II stuff over ISO-9141, the product already exists and is cheap.. > > ISO-9141 and 9141/2 (aka 9141/CARB) are merely the base protocols for communication.. from there one of any one of > a number of "Keyword Protocols" developed by the OEM's are used.. and they are proprietary.. > > Only the basic OBD-II stuff is "standard" and "available" > > Jim C. > In SAE HS-3000 the ISO doucument number and ANSI address is listed under references 2.1.2 of every document. I think there was a new updated standard referenced in FR. I developed module and scan tool 3 yrs ago. It seems that ISO 9141 is the most open std. since follows J1979 so all codes are available. I was rather surprised that J1979 is not used by GM since I thought was mandated. I just decoded GM VPW J1290 which is not very open, due to data packets. The manufactures are required to release all info. to scan tool makers. If you now how to obtain this info. let me know. I applied for membership in ETI but never heard anything, and phone calls where never returned. Alex From stucky at interaccess.com Fri Jan 30 01:59:05 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:59:05 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: Mike Williams wrote: > > I'm building a chrysler 440 for in my 4x4 picup and would like to use > sequential efi. I sent mail to Electromotive and Felpro. Have'nt heard > from them yet. Right now I'm triing to decide on the cam. Called Comp > cams for advice, they said most mutiport efi makers don't recommend a > cam 220 degrees duration @0.050. Is this right and why? P.S. Most of > the material in this group is over my head but I'm learning. Thanks to > you all...Mike A couple of sites to check would be Holley.com, edelbrock.com, force-efi.com I found a bunch with search engines and a little patience. A cam with too much duration does not produce adiquate vacuum at idle. The MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor will read low vac. at Idle (thinking there is a load on the engine) and increase injector pulse width. Basically dump fuel @ idle. That is the main reason I know. If you find out another, let me know. Just an Idea: if the 440 has the same intake bolt pattern as a currently fuel injected mopar (I don't know) you may be able to fabricate your own custom system with mopar and aftermarket parts. It would probably be expensive, but might be worth the effort. Scott From ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca Fri Jan 30 02:06:30 1998 From: ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:06:30 -0500 Subject: cyberdyne speed calibration box Message-ID: Hi Gang JTR sells a couple of neat VSS solutions in the 50 to 70$ range. Check out their book. The truck 40 tooth reluctor system needs a DRAC ie digital ratio adapter. This converts the high res VSS signal to 2000 and 4000 pulses per mile. To use this system raid any later S10 or PU and steal the drac. Mind you they are gearing tire spec. The led system is in a lot of GM car dashes. This gives the 2000 pulses per mile some ecms and cruise controls need. Have fun ya guys:peter From stucky at interaccess.com Fri Jan 30 02:08:02 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:08:02 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: Carl Summers wrote: > > Mike Williams wrote: > > > > I'm building a chrysler 440 for in my 4x4 picup and would like to use > > sequential efi. I sent mail to Electromotive and Felpro. Have'nt heard > > from them yet. Right now I'm triing to decide on the cam. Called Comp > > cams for advice, they said most mutiport efi makers don't recommend a > > cam 220 degrees duration @0.050. Is this right and why? P.S. Most of > > the material in this group is over my head but I'm learning. Thanks to > > you all...Mike > > Mike, > It has been my experience that cams with too much overlap don't like > to idle at 14.7 afr,,,If you have a way to adjust your afr(closed loop) > at say 1000 rpm and down, it can be taken care of,,,other wise you can > run as large a cam as you want,,,One other note about large cams is they > tend to have very little vacuum at low rpm and right off of idle > increase their efficiency dramatically causing major changes required in > the map,,,and if EGR is a factor the EGR tables have to be changed > accordingly(as large overlap EGR's itself under manifold vacuum) It can > be a nightmare to tune. But the horsepower increase of a large cam is > always nice......hope this helps.... > -Carl Summers Idea: if a vacuum switch that diverted a vacuum source to two different locations under two different conditions: 1. MAP could recieve manifold vac info off idle. 2. the vacuum source to the MAP could be diverted to a vac. canister. The vac canister could build vac during driving and hold vac with check valves. This way 18" could be applied to the MAP at idle. in theory... eliminating the rich idle problem. (maybe way out there, but I thought I'd share it anyway) Scott From lndshrk at xmission.com Fri Jan 30 02:24:44 1998 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:24:44 -0500 Subject: ISO 9141 Message-ID: At 08:33 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote: >I developed module and scan tool 3 yrs ago. It seems that ISO 9141 >is the most open std. since follows J1979 so all codes are available. Not for diagnosis other than OBD-II.. ISO-9141 is used for example for all Bosch Motronic diagnostics.. BUT.. 9141 only specifies the initial handshakes/hardware level stuff Beyond that, individual "keyword protocols" are used by the different manufacturers and are HIGHLY proprietary.. I divined the BMW/Porsche/etc protocols by reverse engineering of their darn DME source code.. Jim C. From dzorde at geocities.com Fri Jan 30 02:36:20 1998 From: dzorde at geocities.com (dzorde) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:36:20 -0500 Subject: 72 Stang to EFI conversion Message-ID: I just went and got the 10ft pack of 5/16" Dayco efi fuel hose. I'm using the standard (good quality) Dayco hose clamps (a single on each line is OK) with all the lines flared with the little bump on the end. Haven't had a problem so far. If you can't flare the little bump, most plumbing stores sell them for compression fittings, just get some of these and silver solder onto the end of the pipe. Dan dzorde at geocities.com >> Depending on >> the fuel line already in the car, you may need to use high pressure fuel >> line for the feed side. Normal rubber fuel hose doesn't hold up to >> 40psi+ very well. >> > >Don't worry, you WILL have to replace the rubber fuel hose. There is >more than one standard for this line but use fuel line manufactured to >SAE J 30R9 standard. It will have that stamped on the hose. And use this >type on the return line also. I don't know about the other standard >I've seen. Just make sure it has a working pressure of 100 psi. > >Use that hose type with two clamps on each connection with the clamp >screws 180 degrees from each other. You'll have no worries, mate. > >Joe Boucher >'70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban > From nacelp at bright.net Fri Jan 30 02:36:38 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:36:38 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: Gotta agree with Carl on the cam timing Two other items, in passing, the Map type sensors will generate very erratic idle voltages, and the ecm will just folow that. Dampening the signal mechanically, and elec I tried neither with any good results. I almost beleive there may be some inertia in the diapharm (of the sensor) itself which causes part of the problem. I'm running a 224d @.050, and it took alot to get it to idle. Meaning trying numerous timing mixture combinations, and reworking the pintles on the IAC. On the MAF type systems if their is any reversion the MAF sensor can get confused, it generates a signal proportional to air flow, either way, so you may have very rich spots which will need correcting, in the fuel tables. Given enough time you can get it, but be prepared to spend a BUNCH of time getting it right. This is a chart of my last chip the top being Kpa vertical rpm and the entries VE (mixture) 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 400 0 0 0 16 16 36 41 50 54 800 0 0 0 16 18 39 47 52 54 1200 0 0 0 29 45 50 51 57 60 1600 0 0 25 46 50 51 54 58 61 2000 0 0 51 49 51 53 57 59 62 Getting those jumps right is a 1 by 1 change and drive, item. As errattic as those numbers are, the motor is as smooth as silk (well for a EFI rump rump cam). HTH Bruce Cone hats are kewl.. From nacelp at bright.net Fri Jan 30 02:57:40 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:57:40 -0500 Subject: 27128 question Message-ID: Are the GM OEM memcal eproms 27128, 27c128s, 27128A, or something else?. This is in reference to the 165 ecm Then on the 730 ecm do they use the 27256, 27c256, or ?. Can they all be programmed at 12.5v, as a rule?. Enquiring minds blah blah blah. TIA again, Bruce From bcoop at totacc.com Fri Jan 30 03:02:52 1998 From: bcoop at totacc.com (Brad Cooper) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:02:52 -0500 Subject: ALDL connector Message-ID: Can somebody tell me how to build a connector so I can use my computer on my car. I need it it to fit the ALDL connection and go into the serial or parallel port on my computer. Thanks for any help. -- Brad "Coop" Cooper 1989 Camaro RS 305 TBI, 160 degree thermostat, Edelbrock T.E.S., Turbo City TBI, Flowmaster muffler, High Flow cat, March Pulley's, Mallory HighFire IV, B&M Megashifter, Replica 427 Corvette Hood, 265/50 15's on Cragar DragStars. From mvwilli1 at worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 30 03:36:27 1998 From: mvwilli1 at worldnet.att.net (Mike Williams) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:36:27 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: Thanks Bruce and Scott. Sounds like a 208 deg @0.050 would be alright. I have 3.21 gears in this truck so I assume i'm looking for torque as long as the drive train can stand it. Now if I can find some prices on seq efi I can get started. Mike bruce plecan wrote: > Gotta agree with Carl on the cam timing > > Two other items, in passing, the Map type sensors will > generate very erratic idle voltages, and the ecm will > just folow that. Dampening the signal mechanically, > and elec I tried neither with any good results. I almost > beleive there may be some inertia in the diapharm > (of the sensor) itself which causes part of the problem. > I'm running a 224d @.050, and it took alot to get it > to idle. Meaning trying numerous timing mixture > combinations, and reworking the pintles on the IAC. > On the MAF type systems if their is any reversion > the MAF sensor can get confused, it generates a > signal proportional to air flow, either way, so you > may have very rich spots which will need correcting, > in the fuel tables. > Given enough time you can get it, but be prepared to > spend a BUNCH of time getting it right. > > This is a chart of my last chip the top being Kpa > vertical rpm and the entries VE (mixture) > 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 > 400 0 0 0 16 16 36 41 50 54 > 800 0 0 0 16 18 39 47 52 54 > 1200 0 0 0 29 45 50 51 57 60 > 1600 0 0 25 46 50 51 54 58 61 > 2000 0 0 51 49 51 53 57 59 62 > Getting those jumps right is a 1 by 1 change and > drive, item. As errattic as those numbers are, the > motor is as smooth as silk (well for a EFI rump rump > cam). > HTH Bruce Cone hats are kewl.. From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com Fri Jan 30 04:06:18 1998 From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:06:18 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: > It has been my experience that cams with too much overlap don't like >to idle at 14.7 afr,,,If you have a way to adjust your afr(closed loop) >at say 1000 rpm and down, it can be taken care of,,,other wise you can >run as large a cam as you want,,,One other note about large cams is they Very true... you kinda have to decide whether you want low end, midrange, or high RPMs, and gear the engine towards it. Unless of course you can afford the Indy F1 Pnuematic Valve system. I wish. Anyway, here is a suggestion... if you want extreme power, low mid and high, consider putting the OEM cam back in, or a mild cam, and give a supercharger or turbo a fair shake. Even though the valves are open less than with a high-overlap cam, the additional pressure will fill the cylinders more than ambient air would. I have a supercharger on my 3.8L V6 FWD Lincoln, and I have to say, it *does* get out of its own way. In fact, I believe Paxton has a 440 kit for the Dodge Ram truck series... might be adaptable. Sorry for the tangent, but I just wanted to make a suggestion :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 4-Door Softtop Humvee (Hummer) 2000 Buick GTP (Mid-engine track car) --- From dapiper at access.one.net Fri Jan 30 04:17:38 1998 From: dapiper at access.one.net (TurboDave) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:17:38 -0500 Subject: ReBurned up a chip ha.. Message-ID: Yeah, its a wonder were still here to talk about it. Reminds me of a time..............Nah, too much confession is bad for the reputation. Turbo(one life left and counting)Dave > Heh, that reminds me of a story when I was bout the same age. I > thought that if the little tiny filament in the lightbulb didn't > burn out just because the filament was encased in gas, then using > a more 'robust' filament would easily be able to light up without > a bulb. So a took some lamp cord and at the open ends put about > 1 sheet of folded up tin-foil. Plugged her in and 'KABOOM'. Scared > me shitless. Gave my parents a lot of gray hairs that day... > > -- > Christopher Bruno > Teradyne > 321 Harrison Ave. MS/H63 > Boston, MA 02118 > 617.422.2040 Office > 617.422.2304 Fax > bruno at icd.teradyne.com From nacelp at bright.net Fri Jan 30 04:27:44 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:27:44 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: Ref the idea of a stored vac.. Tried that with a series of restrictors to the map, and then with fixed volume dampners and restrictors, to no avail (spent lots of time, and effort) then tried a series of TPS steps with voltage dividers to tamper with the map signal. Even with V steps as little as .07v of tps, drivability was notchy. IMHO the ECM looks for a increase of O2 v when it momentarily richens mixture, if it doesn't see this then it starts hunting with timing. It's real easy to wind up with an errattic idle. If someone has all the answers about what the ecm is doing at idle I'd love to hear it. It is a real balancing act of timing mixture, and IAC. It also has some sort of stall antisapator(?), so that if it thinks the engine is going to stall it takes measures to prevent that. The above is just what I've noticed, with a 747 ecm, and big cam. HTH Bruce Where would we be without cone shaped hats?. From mccabet at mediaone.net Fri Jan 30 04:28:52 1998 From: mccabet at mediaone.net (mccabet at mediaone.net) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:28:52 -0500 Subject: scantool Message-ID: > > I wrote scan tool program three years ago based on J1979 it looks like carcomp since > uses tabbed folders. Interface was also based on SAE schematic. Have > ISO 9141 and VPW. ISO 9141 is just 10.4 Kb rs232 so can probably > connect straight to computer. > I did get some sample connectors from DELPHI, the last I heard, they > only sell a complete connector about $50.00 ? Some spade connectors > will work > Alex Alex, I am trying to build my own version of an onboard scantool for my chrysler products. Would you be interested in sharing any code? I am primarily interested in talking to the diagnostic port. Thanks! -- Thomas McCabe -mccabet at mediaone.net '80 Cordoba, 340, Auto (904) w/ shift kit & 6500 Rpm shift points, 3.23 SG '83 Cordoba, 318, Auto '85 D250, 340, Auto '87 Lebaron, 2.2L Turbo I, Auto '89 Lebaron GTC, 2.2L Turbo II, A-555 5 Speed, MPSBEC '96 Dakota SLT Club Cab, Brilliant Blue, 5.2L, Auto, 3.55 SG, Gibson Cat-Back Exhaust, ARE A-234 15x7 rims w/ Dunlop GT Qualifiers 255R60-15, Molded running boards and flares, Lund bug shield, Cool Fronts, Ventvisors, and Extang Saber Tonno cover. From dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 30 04:31:15 1998 From: dcmckenna at worldnet.att.net (Ron Tyler) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:31:15 -0500 Subject: ReBurned up a chip ha.. Message-ID: bruce plecan wrote: > > methinks there are are other qualified > cone shaped hat candidates, or at > least worth honorary mentions... You guy's *say* you were kid's....but tell us the truth.. -- Ron & Stephanie Tyler '72 LT1/T56 240Z WOT untill you see God... then BRAKE! From lndshrk at xmission.com Fri Jan 30 05:04:20 1998 From: lndshrk at xmission.com (Land Shark) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:04:20 -0500 Subject: ISO-9141 Message-ID: At 10:24 PM 1/29/98 -0600, you wrote: >ISO 9141 is just 10.4 Kb rs232 so can probably > connect straight to computer. THWACK THWACK (Jim thumps head into PC) Will everyone PLEASE go read the spec.. ISO-9141 is not a fixed baud protocol.. 10.4kbps is the MAX speed of the protocol Actual speeds I've seen are: 2400, 4800, 4804 (yes, 04!), and 9600 in addition to 10.4 Here's how it works.. ECU's can either have a K line or a K & L line Initializing comms with the ECU's is either done by grounding the K or L or both lines or by transmitting a one byte address at FIVE baud (yes, 5) One this is done, the ECU transmits a 55h to the tester at the speed it wishes to communicate and waits a short 100's of millisecs delay for the tester to setup the baud.. The ECU then sends TWO "key bytes" which specify WHICH PROTOCOL and WHAT OEM .. the Tester transmits the inverse of the last keybyte.. VOILA.. DONE.. Everything else is part of the KEYWORD PROTOCOL involved.. The PROTOCOLS (Except for public ones like KW 2000, and CARB/OBD-II stuff) are proprietary to the manufacturer and held by FAKRA in Germany All FAKRA will tell you, is a list of the keywords and whom they belong to.. each protocol is (of course) different.. Knowing ONE in no case tells you anything about another! Jim PS: I'm sorry to be so anal about this stuff, but I'd rather not have someone run off on a wild goose chase.. to FULLY support ISO-9141 and 9141/2 is a very hard thing to do... especially when the spec is wrong/incomplete From snyder at huron.net Fri Jan 30 05:06:24 1998 From: snyder at huron.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:06:24 -0500 Subject: cyberdyne speed calibration box Message-ID: Paul Tholey wrote: > > >The 4000 pulse system takes the reluctor and coil ac signal and converts > >it to a pulsed or on/off 12 volt DC signal. One of the sparkies here > >said $20 at Rat Shack could buy enough parts to make a circuit to do > >that. But he didn't offer to help. With forty teeth, that would mean > >40 peaks every turn of the tranny output shaft. Right? Getting from > >there to an on/off signal is beyond me. > > > >Joe Boucher > >'70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban > > All I know is that Street and Performance S-P at juno.com say that they make > the adapters. From the sound of it, it is probably at a reasonable price too. > > Paul Tholey Should be a relatively simple flip-flop circuit to convert 4000 to 2000. use something like a 7474 - signal into the c, d tied to not Q, and output off Q. output changes every time input goes positive, giving devide by 2 square wave. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From terryk at foothill.net Fri Jan 30 05:37:37 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:37:37 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: It's my understanding (and oh great one is going to correct me on this, I can just feel it), that spark is used to control the idle as much as airflow in the GM FI engines. I watched as the timing would jump around like mad. Finally, that's what I learned. I'm running a .440" in/ex 212/12 duration cam and the idle is steady with tons of lope in my 2.8L V6. About 14 in of vacuum. Passes smog fine, but raises the eyebrows of the inspector. TK -----Original Message----- From: bruce plecan To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 9:12 PM Subject: Re: sequential efi on 440? >Ref the idea of a stored vac.. Tried that with a series of >restrictors to the map, and then with fixed volume dampners >and restrictors, to no avail (spent lots of time, and effort) >then tried a series of TPS steps with voltage dividers >to tamper with the map signal. Even with V steps as little >as .07v of tps, drivability was notchy. IMHO the ECM looks >for a increase of O2 v when it momentarily richens mixture, >if it doesn't see this then it starts hunting with timing. It's >real easy to wind up with an errattic idle. If someone has >all the answers about what the ecm is doing at idle I'd love >to hear it. It is a real balancing act of timing mixture, and >IAC. It also has some sort of stall antisapator(?), so that >if it thinks the engine is going to stall it takes measures to >prevent that. >The above is just what I've noticed, with a 747 ecm, and >big cam. >HTH Bruce Where would we be without cone shaped > hats?. > From nacelp at bright.net Fri Jan 30 05:38:57 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:38:57 -0500 Subject: drag race carolla update kinda long? Message-ID: Ugh what 76 toyo corolla used a v-6?. Now that I think about it weren't they all that U or R series engine?. Quick clue about the interval between firings would be are the terminals evenly spaced on the dist cap?. Bruce From terryk at foothill.net Fri Jan 30 05:40:42 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:40:42 -0500 Subject: ReBurned up a chip ha.. Message-ID: My mom says I was a kid, I believe it, and that settles it. Of course she also reminds me periodically of the numerous doctor visits from such experimentation. All those with permanent u-shaped burn marks on their fingers from the bobbie-pin in the wall socket test, raise their remaining four fingers............. TK -----Original Message----- From: Ron Tyler To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thursday, January 29, 1998 9:18 PM Subject: Re: ReBurned up a chip ha.. >bruce plecan wrote: >> >> methinks there are are other qualified >> cone shaped hat candidates, or at >> least worth honorary mentions... > > > You guy's *say* you were kid's....but tell us the truth.. > > >-- >Ron & Stephanie Tyler >'72 LT1/T56 240Z >WOT untill you see God... then BRAKE! > > From ollikainenv at mtv3.fi Fri Jan 30 07:08:29 1998 From: ollikainenv at mtv3.fi (Ville Ollikainen) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 02:08:29 -0500 Subject: Briggs&Stratton Injection Message-ID: At 21:24 27.1.1998 EST, Ccskidmore writes: >To the collective: > >I am gearing up to put together a small analog control system on a Briggs & >Stratton >5 HP engine with a generator. The scope is a fuel injector using speed as >feedback(1800rpm) as well as an O2 sensor to trim for emissions and fuel >consumption. I have examined the archives, and found small bits of >information on past projects but no definitive proven results. > > Especially to those of you who have experimented with these small >engines, I would appreciate any guidance and suggestions; especially >information on particular physical setups; injectors, size, part numbers, >pulse width, driving circuit (LM1949?). Also experiences with EGO sensors >(probably need to be heated?) or alternatives for emission feedback. Also >thoughts on rpm feedback...inductive, frequency, external(package bought from >NEWARK or somebody)???? I have modified a 10cc OS 60FS engine for fuel injection. I made a wire wrap board around Motorola 68HC711K4 controller, using fixed parameter tables for ignition timing and injector control. This engine is made for a supermileage vehicle (for more information of the concept, see www.sci.fi/~fmmc). Running your B&S engine with a generator makes things simple, I guess you could leave out feedback and get the parameters from a fixed table as well. The fuel consumption should not be the issue: Very few - if any - supermileage vecihles are using O2 sensors, yet figures like 4000 MPG are not unusual. The fuel system is pressurized by compressed air. In my project the biggest problem this far has not been the electronics, but the injector. The pulse width is awfully short, even at full throttle. I modified an old Kawasaki injector by reducing its valve opening (from 0.7 to 0.4 mm). I should reduce it further to use longer than 1 ms pulses. With a new coil (1 ohm resistance and small inductance) the injector became barely fast enough. The driving circuit is an open collector power transistor protected by a slow 3A fuse, very conventional... If you know a fuel injector made for small engines, please let me know. The use of this modified injector is not too optimal: I do not recommend a similar modification for anyone, if an alternative exists. In your case the engine volume is a lot bigger, so there are better chances to run it with a standard part. best regards Ville Ollikainen a proud member of Finnish Mileage Marathon Club From shannen at mcn.net Fri Jan 30 07:15:47 1998 From: shannen at mcn.net (Shannen Durphey) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 02:15:47 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: Scott Shotton wrote: > Mike Williams wrote: > > > > I'm building a chrysler 440 for in my 4x4 picup and would like to use > > sequential efi. I sent mail to Electromotive and Felpro. Have'nt heard > > from them yet. Right now I'm triing to decide on the cam. Called Comp > > cams for advice, they said most mutiport efi makers don't recommend a > > cam 220 degrees duration @0.050. Is this right and why? P.S. Most of > > the material in this group is over my head but I'm learning. Thanks to > > you all...Mike > snip > A cam with too much duration does not produce adiquate vacuum at idle. > The MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor will read low vac. at Idle > (thinking there is a load on the engine) and increase injector pulse > width. Basically dump fuel @ idle. > snip One thing to consider is that roller cams can allow faster valve opening and closing rates, thereby reducing overlap. This can help to a point. Also, "turning up" the idle speed (in the chip) can help some if the cam's a little too large. Neither of these will make a radical cam work. But...Mopar 440 might be very expensive engine to install roller lifters into. You might call Crane Cams, they kinda started the high performance computer cam business. Maybe they can come up with a grind for you using flat tappets. Shannen From ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca Fri Jan 30 07:38:59 1998 From: ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 02:38:59 -0500 Subject: 27128 question Message-ID: Hi Bruce I program all the gm eproms using the Cmos setting in my programmer. Works for me take care:peter From ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca Fri Jan 30 07:39:02 1998 From: ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 02:39:02 -0500 Subject: ALDL connector Message-ID: Howday A solution is to buy the auto xray connector and cable. Es about 35$ canadian which isn't much nowdays. cya:peter From shannen at mcn.net Fri Jan 30 08:26:40 1998 From: shannen at mcn.net (Shannen Durphey) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 03:26:40 -0500 Subject: cyberdyne speed calibration box Message-ID: Here's the brunt of my investigation: 1) when calibrated correctly, speedo cable spins at 1000 RPM (that's revolutions per mile). 2)early speed sensors were DC output, 2,000 ppm (pulses per mile) 3)early speed signals were cut in half for cruise control and multiplied 2X (i believe) for rear wheel ABS. Buffer is available still from GM 4) modern speed signals, specifically 700R4, 4l60E, are AC, 40 pulses per revolution of the driveline. 4.5) to find out how many ppm are sent to signal buffer, by 40 tooth sensor, divide 5280 by tire circumference in feet, multiply by rear axle ratio, and multiply by 40. A car with 29" tires and 3.72:1 axle produces 103,483.3 pulses per mile. 5) 91 to present pickup truck has DRAC, (Digital Ratio Adapter Controller), which can be programmed via jumpers to multiply and divide speed signals. DRAC also has outputs for cruise, ABS, and speedo. If interested, I can furnish some info, especially on programming DRAC. Speed sensor for this type vehicle is 40 tooth. 6)United Speedometer and Instrument, (800) 877-4798, sells speed signal generators. They build them to generate square wave (DC) or sine wave (AC) signals, in two, three, or four pulse per revolution configurations and install between speedo cable and trans. If converting, get DC type with appropriate # of output pulses. 7) It's been over three years since I installed C[rossfire]FI into my '57 pickup, so the above information is subject to correction as needed or wanted. Shannen Joe Boucher wrote: > Andris wrote: > > > > I'm planning on putting a T-56 tranny into my IROC as part of the twin > > turbo project, and would need to calibrate the VSS signal for my > > speedometer. As far as I know, it works on pulses per mile. I know the > > cyberdyne box lets you adjust this, but costs $100. Is there a circuit > > that I could build that will do this? Thanks everyone :) > > > > ********************Skulte Performance Designs******************** > > Andris Skulte askulte at tufts.edu http://www.eecs.tufts.edu/~askulte > > (617)627-1601 89 IROC M5 305 TPI 320 hp / 470 ft-lbs > > > > Leave late, drive faster, still get there first. ;) > > If there is I'd like to know it also. > > I ran into the speedometer wall when I did my conversion on the > Suburban. > > VSS signal into the ecu is either 2000 pulses per mile or 4000. The > trannies with the reluctor wheel and sensor coil are the 4000 and the > trannies that output through a mechanical speedo cable are the basis for > the 2000 pulse systems. > > The speedo system is a led bouncing light off a shiny arm in the back of > the speedometer. > > The 4000 pulse system takes the reluctor and coil ac signal and converts > it to a pulsed or on/off 12 volt DC signal. One of the sparkies here > said $20 at Rat Shack could buy enough parts to make a circuit to do > that. But he didn't offer to help. With forty teeth, that would mean > 40 peaks every turn of the tranny output shaft. Right? Getting from > there to an on/off signal is beyond me. > > Joe Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From whonea at codenet.net Fri Jan 30 09:12:13 1998 From: whonea at codenet.net (Will Honea) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:12:13 -0500 Subject: ALDL connector Message-ID: ** Reply to note from "peter paul fenske" Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:44:10 +0000 > A solution is to buy the auto xray connector and cable. Es about 35$ canadian which isn't much nowdays. Got a source for that? Will Honea whonea at codenet.net From MRASHAN at aol.com Fri Jan 30 09:37:17 1998 From: MRASHAN at aol.com (MRASHAN at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:37:17 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-30 00:56:23 EST, you write: << I'm running a .440" in/ex 212/12 duration cam and the idle is steady with tons of lope in my 2.8L V6. About 14 in of vacuum. Passes smog fine, but raises the eyebrows of the inspector. TK >> Well.......In my GM 2.8 Liter 60 degree V-6, I'm running a Crower cam with .470 in / .483 ex lift and durations of 226in / 234ex @ .050 With a B&M Supercharger and Holley Pro-jection. Has a very nice lope at idle which can be tuned out if i richen up the idle adjustments. Definitely has moved my power band into the 4000 rpm and higher range. and of course, fuel economy has decreased. This l'il jeep sounds nasty at WOT w/ dual flowmasters ! I only see about 7 " of vacuum at idle. Hope this helps..... Art. From wenning.motorsport at t-online.de Fri Jan 30 12:34:17 1998 From: wenning.motorsport at t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:34:17 -0500 Subject: Subaru & OBD2 ??? Message-ID: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com schrieb: > I can develope interface unit to read obd II data such as fuel trim > if you need this to control your devices. Also have intercept unit > for MIL light and trouble codes and signal modifier units. > Can have prototype board in 2 weeks. Can also supply a OBD decoder > to help decode dealer programming data, if they use it. > CARB certification and emission data available. > Alex Thank you for your reply. I need a tool to reprogram the ignition and injection of the Subaru. I would prefer a tool to program the memory via OBD2-connector. If it works properly and the horsepower gain of our modification is interesting I could sell about 100-150 of these programmers a year. How much do you charge for development and for each programmer? Where are you from? USA? (We?re in Germany) Regards Alex Wenning wenning.motorsport at t-online.de From stucky at interaccess.com Fri Jan 30 13:23:10 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:23:10 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: MRASHAN at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-30 00:56:23 EST, you write: > > << I'm running a .440" in/ex 212/12 duration cam and the idle is steady with > tons of lope in my 2.8L V6. About 14 in of vacuum. Passes smog fine, but > raises the eyebrows of the inspector. > > TK >> > Well.......In my GM 2.8 Liter 60 degree V-6, I'm running a Crower cam with > .470 in / .483 ex lift and durations of 226in / 234ex @ .050 With a B&M > Supercharger and Holley Pro-jection. Has a very nice lope at idle which can > be tuned out if i richen up the idle adjustments. Definitely has moved my > power band into the 4000 rpm and higher range. and of course, fuel economy > has decreased. > This l'il jeep sounds nasty at WOT w/ dual flowmasters ! > I only see about 7 " of vacuum at idle. > Hope this helps..... > Art. A little off the subject, but: Is your projection digital or analog? And, have you had any problems or agrivations with it? Thanks! Scott From snyder at huron.net Fri Jan 30 13:36:32 1998 From: snyder at huron.net (Clare Snyder) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:36:32 -0500 Subject: drag race carolla update kinda long? Message-ID: bruce plecan wrote: > > Ugh what 76 toyo corolla used a v-6?. Now that I > think about it weren't they all that U or R series engine?. > Quick clue about the interval between firings would be > are the terminals evenly spaced on the dist cap?. > Bruce Only the T and K (1200 and 1600 cc) went in at the factory in '76. Sounds like this guy is building a HOT ROD -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare at snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From johnhess at cris.com Fri Jan 30 13:42:19 1998 From: johnhess at cris.com (John A. Hess) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:42:19 -0500 Subject: drag race carolla update kinda long? Message-ID: --------------D261E1CA247B53E4E12AD909 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Duane Reed wrote: > hi just to to update any one listening, project 1976 toy Carrolla at > last encounter I has search ing the archives and hitting up > bystanders for info pertaining to GM's 1227148 and > 1227749 <> 1. can the gm ecu from a gn or syfoon(1227148 or > 1227749) handle a 60degree v engine seems to me that a cylinder will > still fire every 120 deg? if not how can I correct it? > Actually, I believe the GN fires every 60 degrees. Though the block > is 90 degrees, the crank is offset to provide for even timing. > 2. can some one explain advantages of ether ecu? 3. does > anybody know of which emissions equipment I can delete from gm > control?...tcc,egr, fuel vapor, fan, iac..etc that wont send the > computer into a tail spin 4. what kind of sensor is the cam/crank ? > hall effect? 5. knock sensor out put? hope to use the Toyota > because it should be tuned to engine? 6. stock injector peak n > hold/high or sat driver/low impedance ? 7. what other cars did > these ecu come from for junk yard searching? 8. any body do > something similar that knows of the gotchas to this? 9. are there > parts people have that they need to get rid of ? 10. any questions > I forgot to ask?<< >>thanks to every one that replied 1. it wont > hurt 2.seems the major difference is '148 is mass air controlled '749 > is manifold absolute pressure 3.still available for comment 4.yes hall > effect 5.I heard that its filtered in the ecm module? 6.the higher > impedance ones 7.148-->century 88/89 regal rivierra to name some most > with the 3.8l engine seemed to me the 749 was in newer > vehicles 8.one person suggested that I get the entire wire harness for > the engine 9. no answers 10. I have more any ways I choose the 148 ecm > mostly because price. picked up the parts from the wreckers today paid > 250 for engine wire harness, all sensors that plugged in to it, > ecm,crank pulley, camsprocket, these all came off a 86 century with > the 3.8l other things I problem should have taken fuse box?more > questions 1. which chip do I change/reprogram in the ecm big one or > the smaller one 2.does anybody know of which emissions equipment I > can delete from gm control?...tcc,egr, fuel vapor, fan, iac..etc that > wont send the computer into a tail spin 3.can some of the > controlled devices be reprogrammed for other things (ac relay to > activate nitrous solenoid/turn no water injection?) 4. the engine I > am using is a 3.0 liter ovhc not GM's 3.8 push rod can this be > adjusted for in the reprogram EASILY in the VE tables? 5.is there a > rev limiting capabilities in this computer can it be set 7000rpm 8000 > 9000+ now I'm dreaming well that is all I can think of for now, > besides my one finger is over strained now thank you for reading this > far Duane Reedduanered at pacbell.nospam.netremove "nospam" to reply --------------D261E1CA247B53E4E12AD909 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Duane Reed wrote:

 hi just to to update any one listening, project 1976 toy Carrolla at last encounter I has search ing the archives and hitting up bystanders  for info pertaining to GM's 1227148 and 1227749 <<snip>>    1. can the gm ecu from a gn or syfoon(1227148 or 1227749) handle a 60degree v engine  seems to me that a cylinder will still fire every 120 deg?  if not how can I correct it?
Actually, I believe the GN fires every 60 degrees.  Though the block is 90 degrees, the crank is offset to provide for even timing.
     2. can some one explain advantages of ether ecu?    3. does anybody know of which emissions equipment I can delete from gm control?...tcc,egr, fuel vapor, fan, iac..etc that wont send the computer into a tail spin    4. what kind of sensor is the cam/crank ? hall effect?    5. knock sensor out put? hope to use the Toyota because it should be tuned to engine?    6. stock injector peak n hold/high or sat driver/low impedance ?    7. what other cars did these ecu come from for junk yard searching?    8. any body do something similar that knows of the gotchas to this?    9. are there parts people have that they need to get rid of ?    10. any questions I forgot to ask?<<   >>thanks to every one that replied 1. it wont hurt 2.seems the major difference is '148 is mass air controlled '749 is manifold absolute pressure 3.still available for comment 4.yes hall effect 5.I heard that its filtered in the ecm module? 6.the higher impedance ones 7.148-->century 88/89 regal rivierra to name some most with the 3.8l engine   seemed to me the 749 was in newer vehicles 8.one person suggested that I get the entire wire harness for the engine 9. no answers 10. I have more any ways I choose the 148 ecm mostly because price. picked up the parts from the wreckers today paid 250 for engine wire harness, all sensors that plugged in to it, ecm,crank pulley, camsprocket, these all came off a 86 century with the 3.8l    other things I problem should have taken fuse box?more questions    1. which chip do I change/reprogram in the ecm big one or the smaller one    2.does anybody know of which emissions equipment I can delete from gm control?...tcc,egr, fuel vapor, fan, iac..etc that wont send the computer into a tail spin    3.can some of the controlled devices be reprogrammed for other things (ac relay to activate nitrous solenoid/turn no water injection?)    4. the engine I am using is a 3.0 liter ovhc not GM's 3.8 push rod can this be adjusted for in the reprogram EASILY in the VE tables?    5.is there a rev limiting capabilities in this computer can it be set 7000rpm 8000 9000+ now I'm dreaming  well that is all I can think of for now, besides my one finger is over strained now thank you for reading this far Duane Reedduanered at pacbell.nospam.netremove "nospam" to reply
  --------------D261E1CA247B53E4E12AD909-- From MRASHAN at aol.com Fri Jan 30 14:59:23 1998 From: MRASHAN at aol.com (MRASHAN at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:59:23 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-30 08:40:44 EST, you write: << With a B&M > Supercharger and Holley Pro-jection. Has a very nice lope at idle which can > be tuned out if i richen up the idle adjustments. Definitely has moved my > power band into the 4000 rpm and higher range. and of course, fuel economy > has decreased. > This l'il jeep sounds nasty at WOT w/ dual flowmasters ! > I only see about 7 " of vacuum at idle. > Hope this helps..... > Art. A little off the subject, but: Is your projection digital or analog? And, have you had any problems or agrivations with it? Thanks! Scott >> Hi Scott......I am using the analog 670 cfm pro-jection. It is a bit too large for my cid ( 173ci) , but even so, seems to perform fairly well considering its price. I still need to frequently adjust most settings to get proper driveability, but when its close......this l'il engine sounds angry ! Its mostly an off road trail and mud racing set up. I have gone through about 6 bad injectors in the last 4 years. later, Art. From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Fri Jan 30 15:45:36 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:45:36 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: > > Idea: > > if a vacuum switch that diverted a vacuum source to two different > locations under two different conditions: > > 1. MAP could recieve manifold vac info off idle. > 2. the vacuum source to the MAP could be diverted to a vac. canister. > The vac canister could build vac during driving and hold vac with > check valves. This way 18" could be applied to the MAP at idle. > > in theory... eliminating the rich idle problem. > > (maybe way out there, but I thought I'd share it anyway) > > Scott Another mechanical mind in an ocean of sparkies and software types! (I'd use the word geek, but I'll need these guys help at sometime and I don't want to piss them off.) I'm trying to develop a circuit that will feed the ecu the correct map sensor circuit, but it's for GM's. Ford uses a varing frequency signal and maybe also Chrysler. That's beyond me. See if you can find out how the Chrysler map works. The, no more than 220 duration @ .050 lift rule is for Chevy small blocks or similar displacement. A larger engine can handle more duration and idle decently. 220 duration @ .050 in a 2.0 liter 4 banger wouldn't idle at all. You could probably stretch the big block duration to 230 or maybe 235. (Do you feel lucky, PUNK?) I wonder how forgiving the Chrysler fuel injection systems are? Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban Bedford, TX From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com Fri Jan 30 17:12:28 1998 From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:12:28 -0500 Subject: cyberdyne speed calibration box Message-ID: Shannen Durphey wrote: > 4) modern speed signals, specifically 700R4, 4l60E, are AC, 40 pulses per > revolution of the driveline. > > 4.5) to find out how many ppm are sent to signal buffer, by 40 tooth sensor, > divide 5280 by tire circumference in feet, multiply by rear axle ratio, and > multiply by 40. A car with 29" tires and 3.72:1 axle produces 103,483.3 > pulses per mile. This info and calculation are correct, but the in '89 TBI system I installed in my Suburban, the 103,483.3 pulses are fed into the back of the speedometer housing where a circuit card converts it into the 4000 pulse per mile, 12 volt signal. I didn't have the speedo housing and was getting a no VSS code and no torque converter lockup. When hooked up to a digital VOM the tranny output would show a rising AC voltage signal as speed increased. The speedo housing, VSS output to the ecm on a VOM would quickly jump up to 6 volts and stay there. I was told this was an indication of a digital, on/off 12 volt signal. Joe Boucher '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban From PDatcuk at ewa.com Fri Jan 30 17:13:56 1998 From: PDatcuk at ewa.com (Peter Datcuk) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:13:56 -0500 Subject: Northstar +Haltech Message-ID: I am planning on swapping a Northstar V8 into my car this summer. I do not plan on using the stock transmission, and I believe that I will have troubles with the stock ECM without it due to the tight integration. So I think I am going to use an aftermarket fuel management system, maybe a Haltech unit. I would like to get the stock fuel and ignition tables out of the OEM ECM to provided a baseline in programing the new computer. Anyone have suggestions/ideas on the viability of doing this? Frankly, any info on the electronics, how to read the code, etc would be helpful. Pete Datcuk Sewell, NJ '87 4cyl 5sp parts car, 161,000 before retirement '87 4cyl 5sp metallic red w/wing, Konis in front and sway bar in rear, helluva nice stereo '67 Jeep Commando, in pieces at the moment. From ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca Fri Jan 30 17:46:38 1998 From: ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:46:38 -0500 Subject: ALDL connector Message-ID: Hi Gang Kms tools in Van area handles the connector Phone is 604-522-5599 remember the can dollar is approaching the peso cya:peter > ** Reply to note from "peter paul fenske" Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:44:10 +0000 > > > A solution is to buy the auto xray connector and cable. Es about 35$ canadian which isn't much nowdays. > > Got a source for that? > > Will Honea > whonea at codenet.net > > > From sknight at mich.com Fri Jan 30 18:22:10 1998 From: sknight at mich.com (Scott Knight) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:22:10 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: Hey Mike, Mike Williams wrote: > > I'm building a chrysler 440 for in my 4x4 picup and would like to use > sequential efi. I sent mail to Electromotive and Felpro. Have'nt heard > from them yet. Right now I'm triing to decide on the cam. Called Comp > cams for advice, they said most mutiport efi makers don't recommend a > cam 220 degrees duration @0.050. Is this right and why? P.S. Most of > the material in this group is over my head but I'm learning. Thanks to > you all...Mike Don't sweat the camshaft with a FelPro unit. I have one on my racecar and it is simple to tune the idle and off idle even with a camshaft that has well over 270 degrees @ .050". It idles at nearly atmospheric pressure, but there is enough resolution that you can tune those cells to work just fine with a little fiddling. Good luck. Later dates. -- Scott Knight mailto:sknight at mich.com http://www.mich.com/~sknight IRC: SS396man '95 Black Impala SS '95 Black Impala SS-crashed '96 Black K3500 Ext. Cab Duallie 7.4L Vortec '94 Ducati 900SS CR From pft101 at psu.edu Fri Jan 30 18:50:03 1998 From: pft101 at psu.edu (Paul Tholey) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:50:03 -0500 Subject: Northstar +Haltech Message-ID: I should be able to answer any questions, and get all necessary information on this conversion. My father works at a Caddy dealer in Philly. He has been there for 17 years, and is very sharp on the electronics and wiring. Reply diretally to me with specific questions. Paul Tholey pft101 at psu.edu At 12:15 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote: > I am planning on swapping a Northstar V8 into my car this summer. I do not plan on using the stock transmission, and I believe that I will have troubles with the stock ECM without it due to the tight integration. So I think I am going to use an aftermarket fuel management system, maybe a Haltech unit. I would like to get the stock fuel and ignition tables out of the OEM ECM to provided a baseline in programing the new computer. Anyone have suggestions/ideas on the viability of doing this? Frankly, any info on the electronics, how to read the code, etc would be helpful. > >Pete Datcuk >Sewell, NJ >'87 4cyl 5sp parts car, 161,000 before retirement >'87 4cyl 5sp metallic red w/wing, Konis in front > and sway bar in rear, helluva nice stereo >'67 Jeep Commando, in pieces at the moment. > > > > From orin at wolfenet.com Fri Jan 30 21:31:10 1998 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:31:10 -0500 Subject: FWD: Please don't put h*elp in subject Message-ID: > From: "Brian Antonishek" > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: H*lp! Which ECM? > Content-Type: text/plain > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:30:12 PST > How do I identify what GM computer is in my '93 S10 4WD Blazer? > I know this is probably an easy question but I couldn't > find the answer in the archives, on the web, or in my Helm > manuals. > I don't see any numbers on my chips or on the boards anywhere > that correspond to the computers mentioned in this > group: 165, 730, 747, 748, 749, etc. > Thanks for any help! > -Brian, antonishek at acm.org > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From bcoop at totacc.com Fri Jan 30 21:41:42 1998 From: bcoop at totacc.com (Brad Cooper) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:41:42 -0500 Subject: ALDL connector Message-ID: Will this connector be able to hook from ALDL slot to a computer? peter paul fenske wrote: > Hi Gang > > Kms tools in Van area handles the connector > > Phone is 604-522-5599 > > remember the can dollar is approaching the peso > > cya:peter > > > ** Reply to note from "peter paul fenske" Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:44:10 +0000 > > > > > A solution is to buy the auto xray connector and cable. Es about 35$ canadian which isn't much nowdays. > > > > Got a source for that? > > > > Will Honea > > whonea at codenet.net > > > > > > -- Brad "Coop" Cooper 1989 Camaro RS 305 TBI, 160 degree thermostat, Edelbrock T.E.S., Turbo City TBI, Flowmaster muffler, High Flow cat, March Pulley's, Mallory HighFire IV, B&M Megashifter, Replica 427 Corvette Hood, 265/50 15's on Cragar DragStars. From GoAPE at tiac.net Fri Jan 30 21:59:11 1998 From: GoAPE at tiac.net (Auburn Performance Equipment) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:59:11 -0500 Subject: FORD Service CD's Message-ID: Gentlemen, We are searching for partial or complete sets of Ford SBDS CD's. These CD's are widely used for servicing Ford vehicles at Ford/Lincoln/Mercury/Ford Truck dealers. They are regularly updated. Some Ford dealers just throw the old ones away. We would like to purchase a complete set if anyone has any. If anyone has any info about this please contact me. Thanks, Matt ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AUBURN PERFORMANCE EQUIPMENT We just don't sell and install parts, we make them perform. ATI Supercharger Winter Sale (ends Feb, 1) ORDER LINE 1-800-858-0070 24 hr FAX LINE (508)832-9566 TECH LINE (508)832-6765 WEBSITE & ON-LINE CATALOG: http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/index.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net Fri Jan 30 22:37:14 1998 From: InnovativeTechnologies at worldnet.att.net (Carl Summers) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:37:14 -0500 Subject: FWD: Please don't put h*elp in subject Message-ID: Orin Eman wrote: > > > From: "Brian Antonishek" > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: H*lp! Which ECM? > > Content-Type: text/plain > > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:30:12 PST > > > How do I identify what GM computer is in my '93 S10 4WD Blazer? > > > I know this is probably an easy question but I couldn't > > find the answer in the archives, on the web, or in my Helm > > manuals. > > > I don't see any numbers on my chips or on the boards anywhere > > that correspond to the computers mentioned in this > > group: 165, 730, 747, 748, 749, etc. > > > Thanks for any help! > > > -Brian, antonishek at acm.org > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Try looking on the computer itself,,,,,,If the computer controlls the trans,,it is probably a 16168625,,,,or get me the broadcast code of the stock prom and I'll be able to tell you.... -Carl Summers From nacelp at bright.net Fri Jan 30 23:33:57 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:33:57 -0500 Subject: ECM ID Message-ID: Orin There "should" be a paper label on the ECM itself. It will Either start with a 1227, followed by 3 digits, or 1615, followed by 4 digits. If not a parts house might help, but I'd be more tempted to seek a dealership for id. help. The 1615 is the newer series of numbers for the ECM, may be for PCMs, only, anyone?. The 165 refers to a 1227165, 747 refers to 1227747, 748, 1227748, and 749, 1227749. BTW there seems to me more mention of the 148 rather than 748. The 165,+730 used in some GM Cars 86-89 The 747 used in some GM trucks 87-93 749 Syclone/Ty various other turbo applic, and others 148 GN (86-87) TTA, and various other FWD HTH Bruce From clendenc at execpc.com Sat Jan 31 01:21:18 1998 From: clendenc at execpc.com (Chad Clendening,) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:21:18 -0500 Subject: scantool Message-ID: Tom: What Chrysler systems are you looking to do this for? I have been playing with the 85-7 EFI setup ... Chad From terryk at foothill.net Sat Jan 31 01:52:52 1998 From: terryk at foothill.net (TBK) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:52:52 -0500 Subject: ECM ID Message-ID: I looked at some 89-91 Quad 4's and they had 1600 series ECM's, not the expected 1200's. All of them can't be rebuild ECM's (most service replacements are 1600's). Any idea where the 1600's are used? TK -----Original Message----- From: bruce plecan To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 4:27 PM Subject: Re: ECM ID >Orin >There "should" be a paper label on the ECM itself. >It will Either start with a 1227, followed by 3 digits, >or 1615, followed by 4 digits. If not a parts house might >help, but I'd be more tempted to seek a dealership for >id. help. >The 1615 is the newer series of numbers for the ECM, >may be for PCMs, only, anyone?. >The 165 refers to a 1227165, 747 refers to 1227747, >748, 1227748, and 749, 1227749. BTW there seems >to me more mention of the 148 rather than 748. >The 165,+730 used in some GM Cars 86-89 >The 747 used in some GM trucks 87-93 >749 Syclone/Ty various other turbo applic, and others >148 GN (86-87) TTA, and various other FWD >HTH Bruce > From MBaxter at compuserve.com Sat Jan 31 01:59:38 1998 From: MBaxter at compuserve.com (Michael Baxter) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:59:38 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: Mike Williams writes: >> I'm building a chrysler 440 for in my 4x4 picup and would like to use sequential efi. I sent mail to Electromotive and Felpro. << Mike, Last I heard Electro. was still working on their sequential box. I have a sheet on the Fel-Pro (actually FP Products, division of Fel-Pro) sequential box at home. It looks promising but, I would have a lot of questions if I was considering one that aren't answered in their lit. Anyone else with input on the new FP sequential ECU? -- Michael Baxter, MBaxter at Compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MBaxter From Reno, NV USA on 30-Jan-1998 Desperately seeking '78-'79 Jeep J-20 axle cores complete w/ brakes! From nacelp at bright.net Sat Jan 31 04:30:14 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:30:14 -0500 Subject: ECM ID Message-ID: Personnally I haven't seen a 16------ used prior to 91. But, that isn't to say they weren't. If you have then that's a new one. There are some Body Control Modules used starting also in this era (that are 16------). The little I played with them, I really grew to dislike them almost instantly. At the time I didn't have internet access, and they just loved to throw codes. On one cop car TBI it looked for a MAP difference for EGR apply. It would set a code for the fuel pump 2 sec prime cycle, may have been for F/P v during crank. Played marry hell with 4066's and voltage dividers, and scr's for killing the codes. Managed good MPG, and was forgiving for getting the MPG, lackluster purpormance thou. HTH Bruce Old fart with Cone Shaped Hat, and still a kid, (well body permitting). At least when making new mistakes From nacelp at bright.net Sat Jan 31 04:41:28 1998 From: nacelp at bright.net (bruce plecan) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:41:28 -0500 Subject: ECM ID Message-ID: 1600----, also seem to be a new number series for pcm, bcm, ecm. May be a source code for tracking warranty replacements also. Some other manufacturers change part no, when changing vendors for tracking warranties, quailty control etc. Got digging in my inventory, some that still have the original paper tags, have a 16------ number on the lower half of of the perforated tag. Don't know if that really helps, but is all I have on the issue Bruce From stucky at interaccess.com Sat Jan 31 05:34:32 1998 From: stucky at interaccess.com (Scott Shotton) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:34:32 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: MRASHAN at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-30 08:40:44 EST, you write: > > << With a B&M > > Supercharger and Holley Pro-jection. Has a very nice lope at idle which > can > > be tuned out if i richen up the idle adjustments. Definitely has moved my > > power band into the 4000 rpm and higher range. and of course, fuel economy > > has decreased. > > This l'il jeep sounds nasty at WOT w/ dual flowmasters ! > > I only see about 7 " of vacuum at idle. > > Hope this helps..... > > Art. > A little off the subject, but: Is your projection digital or analog? > And, have you had any problems or agrivations with it? > > Thanks! > Scott > >> > Hi Scott......I am using the analog 670 cfm pro-jection. It is a bit too > large for my cid ( 173ci) , but even so, seems to perform fairly well > considering its price. I still need to frequently adjust most settings to get > proper driveability, but when its close......this l'il engine sounds angry ! > Its mostly an off road trail and mud racing set up. I have gone through > about 6 bad injectors in the last 4 years. > later, > Art. I might be able to save you some money if your injectors keep failing. Let me know what model # projection you run and/or injector part # and I can try to cross it to a different manufacturer that may have better quality control. Scott From kwk at echonyc.com Sat Jan 31 06:18:23 1998 From: kwk at echonyc.com (Kevin Krooss) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:18:23 -0500 Subject: Upgrading Motronic Message-ID: Hello, I'm new to the list. Glad I found it. I have a possibly foolish newbie type of question. Would there be any advantage (and is it possible) for me to upgrade my Motronic 1.1 to a newer version? Assuming I found one at a reasonable price in a junk yard somewhere. I currently have a 0261 200 150 which I understand is a 1.1 in my 1988 BMW 735iL. I'd like to have some of the more advanced trouble codes available. I understand this unit only has 4 basic codes. Thank you. From b.marzano at student.canberra.edu.au Sat Jan 31 06:44:43 1998 From: b.marzano at student.canberra.edu.au (Bruno!) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:44:43 -0500 Subject: HC sensing Message-ID: Hi all, I was wondering what sort of concentrations exist for HC in exhaust gas. I can get a range of HC sensors, one which i would have to pick as being suitable for automotive use. Thanks, Bruno. (b.marzano at student.canberra.edu.au) Dijon vu: The feeling you get when you think you've seen this mustard before. From shannen at mcn.net Sat Jan 31 07:51:26 1998 From: shannen at mcn.net (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 02:51:26 -0500 Subject: cyberdyne speed calibration box Message-ID: Joe Boucher wrote: > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > 4) modern speed signals, specifically 700R4, 4l60E, are AC, 40 pulses per > > revolution of the driveline. > > > > 4.5) to find out how many ppm are sent to signal buffer, by 40 tooth sensor, > > divide 5280 by tire circumference in feet, multiply by rear axle ratio, and > > multiply by 40. A car with 29" tires and 3.72:1 axle produces 103,483.3 > > pulses per mile. > > This info and calculation are correct, but the in '89 TBI system I > installed in my Suburban, the 103,483.3 pulses are fed into the back of > the speedometer housing where a circuit card converts it into the 4000 > pulse per mile, 12 volt signal. I didn't have the speedo housing and > was getting a no VSS code and no torque converter lockup. When hooked up > to a digital VOM the tranny output would show a rising AC voltage signal > as speed increased. The speedo housing, VSS output to the ecm on a VOM > would quickly jump up to 6 volts and stay there. I was told this was an > indication of a digital, on/off 12 volt signal. > > Joe Boucher > '70 RS/SS Camaro '81 TBI Suburban Yes. The analogue signal is converted to digital. What you are using to do the job would be done by the DRAC in the later TBI pickups w/o speedo cable. If you have a DVOM capable of showing Hz, you should see 67Hz at 60 mph at the ECM when all is correct. Shannen From MRASHAN at aol.com Sat Jan 31 07:53:03 1998 From: MRASHAN at aol.com (MRASHAN at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 02:53:03 -0500 Subject: sequential efi on 440? Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-31 00:51:50 EST, you write: << might be able to save you some money if your injectors keep failing. Let me know what model # projection you run and/or injector part # and I can try to cross it to a different manufacturer that may have better quality control. Scott >> Hey scott......thanks for the offer. I will keep you in mind next time it happens... Art From ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca Sat Jan 31 14:29:16 1998 From: ffnsp955 at bcit.bc.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:29:16 -0500 Subject: HC sensing Message-ID: HI Bruno Well the smog tests look fer 1 part per million to a max of 500 part per million where they tow the car Practically without cats I would say 100 ppm to 800 ppm gl:peter From epml at oninet.es Sat Jan 31 22:41:40 1998 From: epml at oninet.es (E. Martin) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:41:40 -0500 Subject: 27128 question Message-ID: -----Original Message----- De: bruce plecan Para: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Fecha: viernes 30 de enero de 1998 5:44 Asunto: Re: 27128 question >Are the GM OEM memcal eproms 27128, 27c128s, 27128A, >or something else?. This is in reference to the 165 ecm >Then on the 730 ecm do they use the 27256, 27c256, >or ?. > Can they all be programmed at 12.5v, as a rule?. >Enquiring minds blah blah blah. >TIA again, Bruce Hello Bruce from the other side of the Atlantic, Spain. About your question, It is not a rule that all the EPROMS are programmed at 12.5v. This is normal in modern EPOMS but each manufacturer have his own method. Try in www.hitex.com to link the manaufacturer and read about the best way to program each eprom. Sorry by me english. Best regards to all Enrique