Questions about EGOR

[garfield at pilgrimhouse.com]

On Sat, 09 May 1998 15:42:23 -0800, Ludis Langens <ludis at cruzers.com>
wrote:

>I'd probably be using EGOR inside of an OEM ECM which already has a
>power supply with an alphabet soup of features.  Plus it turns itself on
>and off as needed.  This supply is also used as the upper end reference
>for the AtoD.

OK, fine on the "features", that sounds good, but do you know what it's
headroom on it's regulated 5.0V current budget IS? I thot not. Nobody
does, so thas why I was pushing for running it off BAT+ if possible.
See, I'm a flyboy, so I don't take such liberties with the assumptions.
If "win, place, or show", is important to you, you won't either. Don't
add to your ECM's power budget unless you know WHAT it's power budget
IS. That was my point.

>50mA?  No problem.  BTW, most of GM's sensors run off of 5V.  (CTS, MAT,
>and some switches from the same supply as the CPU.  MAP and TPS from a
>second 5V.)

Of course I'm aware of this. I'm also aware that ALL such sensors are
included in the power budget of a box stock ECM, so you can't just slap
something more onto that without the info I was tryna provide you with,
as far as load is concerned. Problem is, with any box stock ECM, just
exactly HOW close to their power budget limit are they? If you know
this, you're smarter than me; thas why I was sayin, if in doubt, use
BAT+ and the regulator, cuz it cost's you next to nuthin.

>> >Is EGOR's 0 to 5V signal output range a "natural" range?
>>
>> "Natural"? that's a new one on me.
>
>What I meant is this:  Is there some physical phenomena requiring the 5V
>range?  For example, an old fashioned O2 sensor has a ~1V range 'cause
>that's the way it works.  Whereas 74xx TTL runs on 5V because some
>standards commitee decided so.  In other words, are you applying a 5V
>range to the sensor?  Or is it from an intermediate node which swings
>rail to rail?

Ahh, this is bloody splitting hairs; WHAT sensor that you know of has a
defined "natural" voltage range?, other than electrochemical stuff like
the stock O2 sensors. EGOR has been designed to yield a 0-5V sensor
range, cuz that's what most ECU's use as their supply range. And since
it's NOW a "measurement" sensor, rather than a mere switch, we're tryna
get the maximum dynamic range we can outta the supply rails. Since the
fundamental thing about EGOR (or for that matter any Ion pump O2 sensor)
is pumping Oxy ions to balance the normal O2 sensor, and as we HAVE
discussed previously, this is based on CURRENT levels, not voltage, one
has to pick a reference range for translating this current to voltage
levels suitable for use. Very rare to see ANY device or sensor related
in terms of it's output CURRENT!

>> Course, you gonna pay for that with increased supply
>> load, but it's still only another 10% of budget, so no sweat.
>
>The increased supply load comes from the other devices supply, not EGORs
>supply.  (Unless EGOR uses an output transistor with a beta of 1.)

WHAT?, not so dude, if EGOR is supposed to supply a certain voltage
output representing AFR, into a 1K load, it's EGOR's supply and output
device that has to supply the current to make that happen. Back to
basics.

>So I guess I'd need to put a 5:1 resistor divider on EGORs output, run
>that to the standard O2 input, and change the 4 or 5 PROM bytes needed
>to deal with the different voltage profile.

Again, WHAT?; you really gotta listen up; the output curve for EGOR
doesn't represent ANYTHING similar to an normal O2 sensor, and if you
wanted to map it into a similar kinda output, you'd certainly be
spending more than 4 or 5 bytes on storage, unless you were building a
bang-bang controller, in which case WHY on earth would you use EGOR? You
need to do your homework, dude.

>Well, you haven't described EGOR's internals or the exact sensor
>operation yet.  (That's OK - I'd rather you post confirmed results than
>educated speculation.)

Well, in the absense of complete schematics, a few ear lobes might be
appropriately applied, instead of your spurious questions. What exactly
DO you allege you need beyond what I've told you, and what we've
discussed in this thread so far?

>I was just repeating what the repair manual said.  I'm sure you can buy
>parts for all sorts of non-California cars in California.  (The reverse
>isn't always true - just try to find a California spec cat in the middle
>of Wyoming.  I got to drive to Montana with an open exhaust.)  The point
>is that I'm not likely to find one of these Civic's in a junk yard. 
>They are at least 5 years too new - unless they got run over by an 18
>wheeler.  And even then, it would have to be an out of state Victim er.
>Civic.

WHAT repair manual? Did you even BOTHER to check on availability of the
HONDA OEM part no. I have posted now THREE bloody times to the group? I
don't give a rat's ass if you CAN find one in a junk yard. That's YOUR
problem, not EGOR's. Sheesh, I give you the stinking HONDA part no. and
you're still whining? GEEZ, give me a brake. You wanna use this stuff,
or just CARP about it not all being automagic to yer doorstep, and outta
a junk yard to boot?

>Have you made any progress with figuring out the calibration resistor? 
>Anyone changing an O2 sensor in the pits during a race would like not
>having to recalibrate EGOR.

Well, Lulu, I'd suggest you just PASS on EGOR then, cuz you ARE gonna
have to recal to free-air to use a new sensor. Like I said, "Thanks for
playing. BZZZTTT!" Ain't that the PITTS!? B)

>You've implied that the NTK box does nothing with the O2 heater.  The
>Honda schematics imply that they do control the heater - perhaps to
>regulate the temperature.

I've not IMPLIED it, I've stated it outright. The SAE docs and the NTK
box documents suggest that there is little to be gained by even
regulating the heater voltage, let alone control it closed loop. Care to
share YOUR weath of information with the rest of the group? WHAT
schematics? Control of the heater? First I've heard of that. Why is
that, Lulu, if you have info to the contrary? POST IT! Don't just wave
it in the air. We'd all love to see it, I'm sure.

>If there is ever a group purchase of sensors, it should include a group
>purchase of the mating wiring harness connector.

Geezus, what a plebe.  A group purchase will try to achieve the lowest
price point on the SENSOR, period, regardless of what connector just
"happens" to be the love of HONDA's life at this particular model year.
IF you're gonna predicate your use of this sensor on the availability of
a "mating wiring harness connector", again I'd say, why dontcha just
PASS. When was the last time you found a "mating" OEM harness available
for anywhere less than 10X the cost of the device. I think you, guy,
have your head firmly impacted up a nice, warm dark place, and I am NOT
gonna waste any more of my time on ya. Just my personal opinion, mindya.

Sayonara, Lulu baby.

Gar