From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Fri Jan  1 00:11:15 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:11:15 -0500
Subject: Chemical warfare
Message-ID: <mailman.18403.1369893079.12317.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:47:45 +0000 xxalexx at ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>Would hydrogen peroxide work?  I thought this was used as rocket
>fuel, and also to clean cuts and teeth.  Should have a large 
>pecentage of H2 and O2 available.  Is cheap and can be found in 
>all drug stores.
>alex

The H2O2 that you buy in a drugstore is rather watered down.  I believe
that it is around 2%, but it could be less.

It also deteriorates fairly rapidly.  In the presence of a catylist
(silver will work, I think), it breaks down really rapidly to H2O and O2.
 The jet backpacks that you see in the James Bond movies really exist. 
The center tank contains gas under pressure that is used to push the H2O2
out of the outer tanks, through a catylist screen, and into the exhaust
nozzles.  The exhaust is steam and oxygen.  I believe that the entire
charge lasts about fifteen seconds.

You could probablly mix appropriate amounts of H2O2 and alcohol together
and come up with a monopropellant.  I don't know enough chemestry to be
able to speculate on how well it would work.

Ray Drouillard


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From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Fri Jan  1 00:11:16 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:11:16 -0500
Subject: Chemical warfare
Message-ID: <mailman.18404.1369893079.12317.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Um... Mr Breitwieser?  Are you the type who likes to put old CDs in the
microwave for ten seconds or so?  Did you ever make Estes rockets when
you were a kid?  Do you still do it?  (I can't wait until my son gets old
enough!)  How about a bit of dry ice in a two liter soft drink (pop,
soda, whatever you call it wherever you live) bottle?  How about a high
powered rifle and a plastic milkjug full of water?  Bubble acetylene
through silver nitrate and put the resultant precipitate into someone's
cigarette?  Fill a really lightweight plastic from the cleaners with
natural gas, let it float way up in the air, and ignite it?

I'm beginning to like this list more and more.  Now, If I could only
remember where I saw that web site with even more good ideas.

Ray Drouillard


On Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:26:03 -0500 Frederic Breitwieser
<frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com> writes:
>>In my (*ahem*) "spare time" I like to design and build explosives,
>>kind of a hobby left over from earlier years. In particular I
>
>I have a project for ya...  one of the other lists I run a gent did this
>with amusing success:
>
>supplies:
>
>1 metal bucket, with a few inches of deisel fuel in the bottom
>1 hefty bag of packing peanuts
>
>slowly dissolve the packing peanuts into the bucket, until you have no
more
>peanuts.  Leave overnight, and you should have a solid block of smelly
"gook".
>
>Dump bucket over, placing solid gook on driveway, stick a papertowel
>underneath, light papertowel :)
>
>You have just made a basic solid fuel.  I tried this, its fun !!!!!!
>
>
>Frederic Breitwieser
>Bridgeport, CT 06606

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From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Fri Jan  1 00:11:30 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:11:30 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.18405.1369893079.12317.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:47:34 -0500 Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com>
writes:
>Any electronics gurus out there familiar w/ voltage boosters / 
>regulators?  There's a manufacturer out there specializing in 
>aftermarket parts for turbo cars that sells an adjustable voltage 
>regulator that will supply 12-16v (@ up to 40a) from a battery source 
>of 8-12v, to boost the stock fuel pump output.
>
>Any idea what circuitry is involved?  The price of this gadget is $250 
>or so, which probably means you could put it together for $50 (?).  If 
>the stock pump is not up to the needs of a hopped up engine, this 
>seems like a neat gadget.
>
>Barry
>

My understanding is that it is simply a switching voltage regulater -
much like the one in your computer.  In fact, you could probablly modify
a computer power supply to do the job.  You have to know what you're
doing, though.  A better plan might be to scam the parts from a stack of
old supplies and build it from scratch.

Switching power supplies have the unique feature of being able to step
the voltage up as well as down.  They are very efficient because there
are no inherent I2R losses.  There are losses because the components are
not perfect, but those losses are not inherent to the design, the way
they are with a standard power supply.

Radio Shack makes an excellent little book (like the Engineers'
Notebooks) that explains how they work.

Briefly:  A switching transister switchies a DC voltage on and off
through an inducter to the load.  There is a diode across the transister
to allow current to flow from the "return" line when the transister is
switched off.  The inducter stores energy when the transister is switched
on, and supplies it when the transister is switched off.  Switching
speeds are generally in the kilohertz (or higher) range.  A higher
switching speed allows the use of a smaller incucter.

It is the switching power supply that generates most of the RF noise in a
computer.

Ray Drouillard, BSEE

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From dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us  Fri Jan  1 00:41:01 1999
From: dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us (David Sagers)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:41:01 -0500
Subject: 350 Pontiac engine
Message-ID: <mailman.18406.1369893079.12317.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If these will fit they are about the best log style manifold around for the money on an engine that going to be used for a street car.

Description Pair of GM SBC exhaust manifolds with the big 2.25" opening from the high performance 1LE Z28, can be used with AIR tubes. $75 obo. 	

Contact:	David Sagers PO Box 901272 Sandy, Utah 84090-1272 USA 			
Telephone:	(801) 339-1488 			
E-Mail:	Reply to Ad 			
Web Site: http://www.dragstore.com



>>> Roy <Spectric at globalnet.co.uk> 12/31 4:54 PM >>>
Hello & a happy new year to all

I am tunning a Pontiac Firebird with a 350 Gm engine and am seeking information on exhaust headers.  Anybody recomend a type or supplier for these please, bearing in mind i have relocated the oil filter. 

Also i will be replacing the old 2 barrel carb and manifold with a pair of 4 barrel carbs, fuel injection will arrive later !  Anybody got any laying around they wish to sell ?

If not again what should i be looking for ?


              Thanks for your help Roy






From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Fri Jan  1 00:42:52 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:42:52 -0500
Subject: Chemical warfare
Message-ID: <mailman.18407.1369893079.12317.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 04:56 PM 12/31/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Um... Mr Breitwieser?  Are you the type who likes to put old CDs in the
>microwave for ten seconds or so?  Did you ever make Estes rockets when
>you were a kid?  Do you still do it?  (I can't wait until my son gets old
>enough!)  How about a bit of dry ice in a two liter soft drink (pop,
>soda, whatever you call it wherever you live) bottle?  How about a high
>powered rifle and a plastic milkjug full of water?  Bubble acetylene
>through silver nitrate and put the resultant precipitate into someone's
>cigarette?  Fill a really lightweight plastic from the cleaners with
>natural gas, let it float way up in the air, and ignite it?

My Favorite is about 2 cups of liquid Nitrogen in a 2 liter pop bottle and
run like heck!

LN2 expands roughly 700 times as it changes state from a liquid to a vapor!


Nitrogen Tri-iodide is fun too!

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Fri Jan  1 03:08:15 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 22:08:15 -0500
Subject: Chemical warfare
Message-ID: <mailman.18408.1369893079.12317.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>  did this with amusing success:
>

Somewhere on the net (in Ohio, I think) someone lights a charcoal grill in 15
seconds with liquid oxygen. Lots of good pictures. I think LOx would be as good as
anything, and it cools the charg as it vaporizes..

Just more hair braned ideas.

I think the Amonium Nitrate + Urea (includes water) thru the fuel jets of a NOx
system would be fun to try (without the Nox). Anybody have a dyno mule with a
separate NOx fuel system????  Let us know how much to run...

Tom



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Fri Jan  1 03:22:24 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 22:22:24 -0500
Subject: Drive by wire and the wish to survice the experience.
Message-ID: <mailman.18409.1369893079.12317.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> >Very inventive - but bogus (IMHO).

Has anyone looked at the new Vette??? It is DBW!   Tom



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan  1 04:27:38 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 23:27:38 -0500
Subject: Has anyone looked at this
Message-ID: <mailman.18410.1369893079.12317.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Fenske <pfenske at bcit.bc.ca>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Has anyone looked at this

Again, Thanks
Bruce


>
>
>Hi Bruce
>
>To set the cy select insert $00 not FF for V8
>This allows the code to bypass the scaling
>
>:peter
>
>Merry Christmas and a Appy New year
>
>



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Fri Jan  1 05:07:17 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 00:07:17 -0500
Subject: Chemical warfare
Message-ID: <mailman.31394.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 09:09 PM 12/31/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>  did this with amusing success:
>>
>
>Somewhere on the net (in Ohio, I think) someone lights a charcoal grill in 15
>seconds with liquid oxygen. Lots of good pictures. I think LOx would be as 
>good as
>anything, and it cools the charg as it vaporizes..

That's the George Goble home page... He's at some University in the mid west.
Pretty cool!

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From arcstarter at hotmail.com  Fri Jan  1 06:01:00 1999
From: arcstarter at hotmail.com (Bill the arcstarter)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 01:01:00 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31395.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg wrote:
>And, while I am straying off list subjects--has anyone else seen the 
>news about a British photographer having applied for a patent for 
>using what is known in his trade as a "slave flash unit" for many 
>non-photographic applications, one of which was mounting such a unit 
>as one would mount either a driving and/or a back-up light for the 
>purpose of completely washing out the film image in a photo-radar 
>camera???? :-) (I happen to hate big brother stuff every bit as much 
>as I hate snake oil!!)

Oh - that sounds nice.  I had thought about a constant IR lamp blaring 
on the plate to fog the film.  Possibly via infrared leds/diode 
modules...  Most b/w film is sensitive to IR or so I'm told...

-Bill



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From tparker at nznet.gen.nz  Fri Jan  1 08:26:29 1999
From: tparker at nznet.gen.nz (Tom Parker)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 03:26:29 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31396.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bill the arcstarter <arcstarter at hotmail.com> wrote:

[killing speed camera photos]

>Oh - that sounds nice.  I had thought about a constant IR lamp blaring
>on the plate to fog the film.  Possibly via infrared leds/diode
>modules...  Most b/w film is sensitive to IR or so I'm told...

This might work, but I would think you would need a rather powerful source.
In order to completely burn out the film  you need a huge amount of light, I
have got usable images from film overexposed by 3 or 4 stops.

I imagine a flash aimed at the number plate would be most effective. If the
flash is pointing at the camera, and is near the plate, you might have some
luck, but the camera will be doing its best to keep the light from the flash
in the area of the film where the flash is, not where the plate is. You would
only get light that is scattered inside the camera going from the flash to the
image of the number plate.

At least, this is how I see it.

The other problem with slave flash units is that they are very sensitive. If
they see any kind of very fast rising light source, they go off.
Photographers have problems with slaves triggering off strobes in shop windows
far away from where they are photographing...

The local police claimed that the idea would not work. They didn't give any
convincing reasons for it. They went on about how fast the shutter is, but the
flash is much much faster...

--
Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/



From s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au  Fri Jan  1 09:19:01 1999
From: s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au (Mos)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 04:19:01 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31397.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

An option I have been exploring was to use an LCD panel infront of the
number plate which turns opaque when it detects a flash. I've seen things
like that used on welding goggles, but I'm wondering whether it would be
fast enough to activate in the case of a flash? How fast are the slave
flash units? Would they activate before the light from the flash reaches
the camera?
The LCD would in reality need to activate before the light reached the
number plate. If the sensor is mounted on the bumper, considering light
travels at around 3e+8m/s it doesn't leave much time for the LCD to
activate, but since it's been done with welding goggles I guess it could
work...
Just a thought..
Mos.
Oh yeah, Happy New Year  :)

On 1 Jan 1999, Tom Parker wrote:

M>Bill the arcstarter <arcstarter at hotmail.com> wrote:
M>
M>[killing speed camera photos]
M>
M>>Oh - that sounds nice.  I had thought about a constant IR lamp blaring
M>>on the plate to fog the film.  Possibly via infrared leds/diode
M>>modules...  Most b/w film is sensitive to IR or so I'm told...
M>
M>This might work, but I would think you would need a rather powerful source.
M>In order to completely burn out the film  you need a huge amount of light, I
M>have got usable images from film overexposed by 3 or 4 stops.
M>
M>I imagine a flash aimed at the number plate would be most effective. If the
M>flash is pointing at the camera, and is near the plate, you might have some
M>luck, but the camera will be doing its best to keep the light from the flash
M>in the area of the film where the flash is, not where the plate is. You would
M>only get light that is scattered inside the camera going from the flash to the
M>image of the number plate.
M>
M>At least, this is how I see it.
M>
M>The other problem with slave flash units is that they are very sensitive. If
M>they see any kind of very fast rising light source, they go off.
M>Photographers have problems with slaves triggering off strobes in shop windows
M>far away from where they are photographing...
M>
M>The local police claimed that the idea would not work. They didn't give any
M>convincing reasons for it. They went on about how fast the shutter is, but the
M>flash is much much faster...
M>
M>--
M>Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
M>           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/
M>

--
+----------------------------------------------------+
|           Jealousy is a lifelong curse...          |
|     Reality is the only obstacle to happiness.     |
|              Taciturnity is aurous.                |
+----------------------------------------------------+
| Lukasz Szymanski,                       /\/\OSFET  |
| 3rd Yr, BE(Comp)/MBiomedE                       |--+
| The University of New South Wales            __||<-+
| Email: s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au                 |--|
| Web: http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~s2193387/         |
+----------------------------------------------------+



From geoffsue at one.net.au  Fri Jan  1 10:39:24 1999
From: geoffsue at one.net.au (Geoff Richards)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 05:39:24 -0500
Subject: Power ground
Message-ID: <mailman.31398.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Anyone have time to explain the difference between 'ground' and
'powerground'?
TIA
Geoff



From BossOz at aol.com  Fri Jan  1 14:38:14 1999
From: BossOz at aol.com (BossOz at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 09:38:14 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31399.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 12/31/98 6:16:23 PM Central Standard Time,
cosmic.ray at juno.com writes:

<< egulator that will supply 12-16v (@ up to 40a >>
If all you want is 16v the cars alternator can supply that easily
But a performance pump would be the one to go


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Fri Jan  1 16:18:49 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 11:18:49 -0500
Subject: Chemical warfare
Message-ID: <mailman.31400.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Um... Mr Breitwieser?  Are you the type who likes to put old CDs in the
>microwave for ten seconds or so?  Did you ever make Estes rockets when

Ray, simple answer : Yes, when I was younger :)  Now, I just detonate
engines ;)


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Fri Jan  1 16:33:54 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 11:33:54 -0500
Subject: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31401.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On 01 Jan 99 21:13:41 +1200 "Tom Parker" <tparker at nznet.gen.nz> writes:
>Bill the arcstarter <arcstarter at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>[killing speed camera photos]
>
>>Oh - that sounds nice.  I had thought about a constant IR lamp blaring
>>on the plate to fog the film.  Possibly via infrared leds/diode
>>modules...  Most b/w film is sensitive to IR or so I'm told...
>
>This might work, but I would think you would need a rather powerful
source.
>In order to completely burn out the film  you need a huge amount of
light, I
>have got usable images from film overexposed by 3 or 4 stops.
>
>I imagine a flash aimed at the number plate would be most effective. If
the
>flash is pointing at the camera, and is near the plate, you might have
some
>luck, but the camera will be doing its best to keep the light from the
flash
>in the area of the film where the flash is, not where the plate is. You
would
>only get light that is scattered inside the camera going from the flash
to the
>image of the number plate.
>
>At least, this is how I see it.
>
>The other problem with slave flash units is that they are very
sensitive. If
>they see any kind of very fast rising light source, they go off.
>Photographers have problems with slaves triggering off strobes in shop
windows
>far away from where they are photographing...
>
>The local police claimed that the idea would not work. They didn't give
any
>convincing reasons for it. They went on about how fast the shutter is,
but the
>flash is much much faster...
>
>--
>Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
>           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/
>

I would point the flash at my plate to avoid being accused of blinding
other drivers.  Also, since my plate is blue with white letters, I would
put a blue filter on the flash to reduce the contrast between the letters
and the background.  Another option would be to project an image on the
plate with the flash.  If it is lit with blue light that has a mottled
"texture", it would be extremely difficult to read.  You wouldn't need to
use enough brute power to wash out the film, that way.  Just obscure the
image.

Ray

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From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Fri Jan  1 18:53:20 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 13:53:20 -0500
Subject: Power ground
Message-ID: <mailman.31402.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

EE designers like to separate all grounds digital, analog and
power.  This can avoid transient voltage spikes on one ground
line affecting another ground line, or any voltage differences on
ground lines.  There are some design schemes to reconnect the 
grounds such as the Starr, found in alot of A/D reports   
alex
> Anyone have time to explain the difference between 'ground' and
> 'powerground'?
> TIA
> Geoff
 


From rwebb at ptialaska.net  Fri Jan  1 19:15:39 1999
From: rwebb at ptialaska.net (Ronald T. Webb)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 14:15:39 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31403.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I like your idea of an LCD screen similar to the expensive welding hoods. The
opaquing action would not have to outrun the light, only go dark before the camera
lens had collected sufficient light. Anybody know the shutter speed used?

Maybe, instead of going completely opaque, we can display large text, light on a
dark background... the camera could be induced to record some appropriate expletive,
instead of the license number ;-}

Mos wrote:

> An option I have been exploring was to use an LCD panel infront of the
> number plate which turns opaque when it detects a flash. I've seen things
> like that used on welding goggles, but I'm wondering whether it would be
> fast enough to activate in the case of a flash? How fast are the slave
> flash units? Would they activate before the light from the flash reaches
> the camera?
> The LCD would in reality need to activate before the light reached the
> number plate. If the sensor is mounted on the bumper, considering light
> travels at around 3e+8m/s it doesn't leave much time for the LCD to
> activate, but since it's been done with welding goggles I guess it could
> work...
> Just a thought..
>



From sganz at wgn.net  Fri Jan  1 19:42:09 1999
From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 14:42:09 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31404.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

You would sell a lot in Scottsdale Arizona ;-). I was there on business,
and they had the Photo Radar BS things all over the place. I think they got
me in my rental car, just havent seen the ticket yet.  Really pissed me of
the more I thought about the whole thing, next thing you know I'll have a
camera on my front door making sure my socks match and then a printer at
the end of the walkway to pick up my fine.

Sandy

At 10:15 AM 12/31/96 -0900, you wrote:
>I like your idea of an LCD screen similar to the expensive welding hoods. The
>opaquing action would not have to outrun the light, only go dark before the 
>camera
>lens had collected sufficient light. Anybody know the shutter speed used?
>
>Maybe, instead of going completely opaque, we can display large text, light 
>on a
>dark background... the camera could be induced to record some appropriate 
>expletive,
>instead of the license number ;-}
>
>Mos wrote:
>
>> An option I have been exploring was to use an LCD panel infront of the
>> number plate which turns opaque when it detects a flash. I've seen things
>> like that used on welding goggles, but I'm wondering whether it would be
>> fast enough to activate in the case of a flash? How fast are the slave
>> flash units? Would they activate before the light from the flash reaches
>> the camera?
>> The LCD would in reality need to activate before the light reached the
>> number plate. If the sensor is mounted on the bumper, considering light
>> travels at around 3e+8m/s it doesn't leave much time for the LCD to
>> activate, but since it's been done with welding goggles I guess it could
>> work...
>> Just a thought..
>>



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan  1 20:02:17 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 15:02:17 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31405.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Sandy <sganz at wgn.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 01, 1999 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: oops... (was Re: Nology)

Everthing was fine till ya mentioned socks, now Grumpy, Doc, Sleepy, and
Dopey
are all PO'd.  I hate when that happens, last time weapons cleaning took
place
shortly there after.
Happy Hew Year's from CSH, HQ
Bruce, and the Staff


>You would sell a lot in Scottsdale Arizona ;-). I was there on business,
>and they had the Photo Radar BS things all over the place. I think they got
>me in my rental car, just havent seen the ticket yet.  Really pissed me of
>the more I thought about the whole thing, next thing you know I'll have a
>camera on my front door making sure my socks match and then a printer at
>the end of the walkway to pick up my fine.
>
>Sandy
>
>At 10:15 AM 12/31/96 -0900, you wrote:
>>I like your idea of an LCD screen similar to the expensive welding hoods.
The
>>opaquing action would not have to outrun the light, only go dark before
the
>>camera
>>lens had collected sufficient light. Anybody know the shutter speed used?
>>
>>Maybe, instead of going completely opaque, we can display large text,
light
>>on a
>>dark background... the camera could be induced to record some appropriate
>>expletive,
>>instead of the license number ;-}
>>
>>Mos wrote:
>>
>>> An option I have been exploring was to use an LCD panel infront of the
>>> number plate which turns opaque when it detects a flash. I've seen
things
>>> like that used on welding goggles, but I'm wondering whether it would be
>>> fast enough to activate in the case of a flash? How fast are the slave
>>> flash units? Would they activate before the light from the flash reaches
>>> the camera?
>>> The LCD would in reality need to activate before the light reached the
>>> number plate. If the sensor is mounted on the bumper, considering light
>>> travels at around 3e+8m/s it doesn't leave much time for the LCD to
>>> activate, but since it's been done with welding goggles I guess it could
>>> work...
>>> Just a thought..
>>>
>



From ECMnut at aol.com  Fri Jan  1 20:31:25 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 15:31:25 -0500
Subject: 350 Pontiac engine
Message-ID: <mailman.31406.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


If it has a Pontiac 350 V8, Summit Racing (Akron, Ohio, USA) lists
headers with .049" mandrel bent tubes, blah-blah-blah..
 for US$79.50   Summit Part# SUM-G9020
Chevy V8 is # SUM-G9005
Do you know which V8 you have?
Plugs below manifolds=Chev
Plugs above manifolds=Pontiac
HTH
Mike V
>  I am tunning a Pontiac Firebird with a 350 Gm engine and am seeking 
> information on exhaust headers.  Anybody recomend a type or supplier for 
> these please, bearing in mind i have relocated the oil filter. 
>  


From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Fri Jan  1 20:48:35 1999
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 15:48:35 -0500
Subject: Random thoughts
Message-ID: <mailman.31407.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Water injection and corrosion and other such concerns.  You do understand that
the combustion of the hydrogen component of fuel with oxygen results in water
and that that's typically about two gallons of water for every gallon of
gasoline burned. Adding water is kinda like peeing in a river - not gonna
change much ( as far as corrosion goes )

Acetone.  Octane about 120 or so.  Primary use as an anti-phase separation
agent at about 10%.  Extreme affinity with water.  Blends with alcohol, water,
gasoline, nitromethane and most other fluids.  Auto ignition temp from about
that of methanol alcohol to over 1000F depending on who and how its tested.
Stoic about 9.5 to 1, heat energy higher that of ethanol, but lower that
gasoline.  Used since moby dick was a minnow to blend various fuel components
that are subject to phase separation together.  Low flash point in comparison
to Nitromethane and Alcohol is helpful in igniting such mixtures easier.

Model fuel.   Typically a blend of Lubricant ( Castor Oil or synthetic castor
oil), methanol and nitromethane.   Nitro percentage ranges from zero to 60 %.
Price varies on percentage.   Model boat fuel - 60% nitro runs about 35$ US
per gallon.  Synthetic castor oil preferred by the modelers.  Note - adding
acetone to this would make it blendable in a water injection system.

Nitromethane and gasoline.  Up to 10% nitromethane can be blended with
gasoline by preblending the nitromethane with equal parts nitro and acetone.
Nitropropane or Nitrobenzene preferred as they blend much better and can be
used at higher ratios.   Higher amount of nitro really should be introduced as
separate BI-FUEL system if you intend to keep burning gasoline.

H2O2 - Hydrogen peroxide.  8% max over the counter.  33% max industrial.
Higher % require special handling included full body suits.  An unpleasant
side effect of neat H2O2 is that it will virtually instantaneously dissolve
human flesh to the bone.  Be careful of any joy juice you make that involves
H2O2  - Hydrazine for example, explodes ( not burns!) on contact with H2O2.
Many other nitrogen based compounds have greatly accelerated burn
characteristics around H2O2.  Note - H2O2 is an early combustion product and
some sources seem to suggest that the addition of some amount of these
products such as formaldehyde or H2O2 will spike the combustion and result in
faster combustion during the induction period.  One of the reasons hydrazine
results in big power boosts in very small percentages is that it adds free
hydrogen and large amounts of energy in the early induction period. This
greatly assists in the tearing apart of the HC molecule and making its energy
available faster.

Mono propellants - be very wary.  Any fuel either a blend of chemicals, or a
true chemical monopropellent  ( Mono - latin for one - one chemical as a
propellent - not a blend mix or whatever ), is subject to flash back.  I.E.
once ignited, it needs no outside source of oxygen or ignition to keep burning
- you don't want it to start traveling back to the storage tank do you.  

Ammonia Nitrate - commercially available as fertilizer.  Totally dissolves in
water.  Minerals drop out.  You may seriously consider using the resultant
stew as water injection. Solves the problem of not being blendable with
petroleum based fluids nicely. 

Just some catching up thoughts - was out of the PDRC for a couple of weeks.

The Luddites were RIGHT!!

Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From ECMnut at aol.com  Fri Jan  1 21:48:12 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 16:48:12 -0500
Subject: Has anyone looked at this
Message-ID: <mailman.31408.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 12/31/98 4:54:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pfenske at bcit.bc.ca writes:

>  To set the cy select insert $00 not FF for V8
>  This allows the code to bypass the scaling

 I'm always getting in over my head..
Uh, what is this scaling you write about??
Please tell me more..
Thanks,
Mike V


From rwebb at ptialaska.net  Fri Jan  1 21:58:31 1999
From: rwebb at ptialaska.net (Ronald T. Webb)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 16:58:31 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31409.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


--------------02BC8155D03A4C2BCB9EEA49
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Oh yea - one more thing - you don't need to trigger the LCD from a camera flash, just
drive it from a RADAR detector. Pick the signal off the red LED, and throw in a 10
second delay before the LCD is allowed to return to normal.

Now we have :
                        LCD hood - $250
                        RADAR detector : $100
                        555 delay timer    : $.50     555 design

Remember - Never build it if you can buy it...



--------------02BC8155D03A4C2BCB9EEA49
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>Oh yea - one more thing - you don't need to trigger the LCD from a camera
flash, just drive it from a RADAR detector. Pick the signal off the red
LED, and throw in a 10 second delay before the LCD is allowed to return
to normal.
<p>Now we have :
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
LCD hood - $250
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
RADAR detector : $100
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
555 delay timer&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : $.50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://www.schematica.com/Free/Free.htm">555
design</a>
<p>Remember - Never build it if you can buy it...
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;</html>

--------------02BC8155D03A4C2BCB9EEA49--



From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Fri Jan  1 22:47:56 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:47:56 -0500
Subject: Has anyone looked at this
Message-ID: <mailman.31410.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



APPY NEUVE YAR ( My head still hurts but )

Gm ecms(ECU) read time in ticks between ref pulses. The time between
ref pulses for a 4 cyl is twice as long as for a V8.

So for a 4 cyl we scale by ($80/256) for a V6 by ($C0/256)

This gives up the same ticks/rpm we would get for a V8 application

So we can use the same code..

Tell Bruce to make sure the M0 M1 decode is right for the
calpak used.

:peter





ECMnut at aol.com on 01/01/99 01:47:12 PM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To:      diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu                   
                                                              
 cc:      (bcc: Peter Fenske/BCIT)                            
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: Re: Has anyone looked at this                       
                                                              








In a message dated 12/31/98 4:54:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pfenske at bcit.bc.ca writes:

>  To set the cy select insert $00 not FF for V8
>  This allows the code to bypass the scaling

 I'm always getting in over my head..
Uh, what is this scaling you write about??
Please tell me more..
Thanks,
Mike V





From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan  1 23:16:03 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 18:16:03 -0500
Subject: Has anyone looked at this
Message-ID: <mailman.31411.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Fenske <pfenske at bcit.bc.ca>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 01, 1999 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: Has anyone looked at this


OK, what's the M0 M1 decode, 
I was working with a memcal from a 89 F-Body 1227165 ecm.
My head hurts, just wish it was from the bubbly.  
Bruce      M Stewart failed to show for X-Mas, New Years Eve, and
              New Year's Day she just might find herself off the CSH. HQ
              auto invite list..............      

>
>
>APPY NEUVE YAR ( My head still hurts but )
>Gm ecms(ECU) read time in ticks between ref pulses. The time between
>ref pulses for a 4 cyl is twice as long as for a V8.
>So for a 4 cyl we scale by ($80/256) for a V6 by ($C0/256)
>This gives up the same ticks/rpm we would get for a V8 application
>So we can use the same code..
>Tell Bruce to make sure the M0 M1 decode is right for the
>calpak used.
>:peter
>
>
> Subject: Re: Has anyone looked at this                       
>pfenske at bcit.bc.ca writes:
>>  To set the cy select insert $00 not FF for V8
>>  This allows the code to bypass the scaling
> I'm always getting in over my head..
>Uh, what is this scaling you write about??
>Please tell me more..
>Thanks,
>Mike V




From tparker at nznet.gen.nz  Sat Jan  2 01:01:47 1999
From: tparker at nznet.gen.nz (Tom Parker)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 20:01:47 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31412.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ronald T. Webb <rwebb at ptialaska.net> wrote:

>I like your idea of an LCD screen similar to the expensive welding hoods. The
>opaquing action would not have to outrun the light, only go dark before the
>camera lens had collected sufficient light. Anybody know the shutter speed
>used?

There are two sources of light used to expose the film. First is the flash
from the speed camera, the second is the ambient light hanging around. The
shutter speed is likely to be around 1/125 to 1/250 of a second, certainly no
faster than 1/500. Camera flahes have very short durations. I don't know how
quickly the light builds up from the flash, but any trigger circuit would need
to detect the flash building up and get the LCD opaque before enough light had
arived.

The effect of the ambient light would be interesting, since this light is
always there, and the flash is triggered somewhere in the middle of the
exposure. The shutter opens fully, then the flash fires, and the shutter
closes. Depending on the power of the flash and the distance from the camera
to the car, ambient light would probably have no real effect on the image.

--
Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/



From JemisonR at tce.com  Sat Jan  2 02:49:20 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 21:49:20 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31413.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Do you have a source for this LCD Hood?   This is starting to get
interesting!

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ronald T. Webb [SMTP:rwebb at ptialaska.net]
> Sent:	Tuesday, December 31, 1996 4:58 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: oops... (was Re: Nology)
> 
> ? 
> 
> Oh yea - one more thing - you don't need to trigger the LCD from a camera
> flash, just drive it from a RADAR detector. Pick the signal off the red
> LED, and throw in a 10 second delay before the LCD is allowed to return to
> normal. 
> 
> Now we have : 
> ??????????????????????? LCD hood - $250 
> ??????????????????????? RADAR detector : $100 
> ??????????????????????? 555 delay timer??? : $.50???? 555 design
> <http://www.schematica.com/Free/Free.htm> 
> 
> Remember - Never build it if you can buy it... 
> ? 
> ?


From rwebb at ptialaska.net  Sat Jan  2 02:57:44 1999
From: rwebb at ptialaska.net (Ronald T. Webb)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 21:57:44 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31414.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Those hoods are available at any welding supply house.

Jemison Richard wrote:

> Do you have a source for this LCD Hood?   This is starting to get
> interesting!



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  2 04:40:54 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 23:40:54 -0500
Subject: Random thoughts
Message-ID: <mailman.31415.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Water injection and corrosion and other such concerns.
>
>Ammonia Nitrate - commercially available as fertilizer.  Totally dissolves in
>water.  Minerals drop out.  You may seriously consider using the resultant
>stew as water injection. Solves the problem of not being blendable with
>petroleum based fluids nicely.
>
ERRHM--

"Minerals drop out"--?? You mean something precipitates out when you
dissolve the prell in water?? Any idea what?? Or what is usual??

Got any data handy on  the effect of % by weight NH4-NO3  dissolved in H2O
on freexing temperature of the H2O??

Sounds to me like this might well out-do alky as a practical antifreeze for
an H2O injection system!!!  Might even be available in, say, Baja!!---- :-)
(Not that one should expect to need antifreeze there, but you know how it
is!)

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  2 04:49:28 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 23:49:28 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31416.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Oh yea - one more thing - you don't need to trigger the LCD from a camera
>flash, just
>drive it from a RADAR detector. Pick the signal off the red LED, and throw
>in a 10
>second delay before the LCD is allowed to return to normal.
>
Great thinkin' as to how to turn on any such countermeasures!!

Mebbe a mottled pattern high intensity light, filtered to match a plate
color and aimed at the plate would work better (and cheaper) than an LED
screen. (Plus it would, technically, not be "obscuring" the plate.) Make it
a thirty second delay, and add a light for the rear plate just to be sure!

Nest question--what do we use to trigger (turn on) the same lights in the
presence of one of the roadside smog sniffers (which I think are infra-red
based.)

Regards, Greg




From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Sat Jan  2 06:21:40 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 01:21:40 -0500
Subject: S19 Files
Message-ID: <mailman.31417.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've noticed some people have posted up ROM Dumps as Motorola S19 files.
Does anybody have or know where to get an S19 - Bin converter?.

Regards

Ross Myers



From orin at wolfenet.com  Sat Jan  2 08:57:37 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 03:57:37 -0500
Subject: S19 Files
Message-ID: <mailman.31418.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> I've noticed some people have posted up ROM Dumps as Motorola S19 files.
> Does anybody have or know where to get an S19 - Bin converter?.

http://www.mcu.motsps.com/freeweb/pub/ibm/s2bin.exe

Orin.


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Sat Jan  2 10:54:28 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 05:54:28 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31419.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???

Regards  Tom

BossOz at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/31/98 6:16:23 PM Central Standard Time,
> cosmic.ray at juno.com writes:
>
> << egulator that will supply 12-16v (@ up to 40a >>
> If all you want is 16v the cars alternator can supply that easily
> But a performance pump would be the one to go





From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan  2 13:43:02 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 08:43:02 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator/fuel pump strategy
Message-ID: <mailman.31420.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Sharpe <twsharpe at mtco.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 02, 1999 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: Voltage regulator

My thoughts on the Big Pump are using a PWM scheme, anything below
x amount of TPS, or x MAP, and it goes on.  Really early in the timing of
events so as to have time to be up to speed, for big demand.  Popular
Electronics had a Motor Speed Contoller Article within the last 2 years
that gave some details about freq for the PWM, and used a couple 555
to run a Power MOSFET, which could be ganged for big outputs.
Cheers
Bruce      Doc is Happy we got like a foot of snow overnight,  and he
               wants to go skiing.  Time to get the boat and trailer out..
              


>How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
>
>Regards  Tom
>
>BossOz at aol.com wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 12/31/98 6:16:23 PM Central Standard Time,
>> cosmic.ray at juno.com writes:
>>
>> << egulator that will supply 12-16v (@ up to 40a >>
>> If all you want is 16v the cars alternator can supply that easily
>> But a performance pump would be the one to go
>
>
>



From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan  2 14:56:46 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:56:46 -0500
Subject: Has anyone looked at this
Message-ID: <mailman.31421.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/1/99 5:56:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, pfenske at bcit.bc.ca
writes:

>  Tell Bruce to make sure the M0 M1 decode is right for the
>  calpak used.

And just what the heck is THAT?   8~)
Thanks,
MikeV


From btisdale at cybersol.com  Sat Jan  2 15:05:59 1999
From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 10:05:59 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31422.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks to all who responded to my question on the fuel pump voltage booster.

Replacing the stock pump w/ a higher output unit just became mandatory for me, however.  I was getting a code 'rich' and found the fuel pressure reg stuck @ 90psi, with leakback thru the pressure line.  Replaced the regulator, but apparently working @ 90+psi caused something in the tank (pump? pulsator?) to spring a leak.  Project for next weekend!

Thanks - Barry	 	


From Dodge1979 at webtv.net  Sat Jan  2 16:24:27 1999
From: Dodge1979 at webtv.net (Roger Anderson)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 11:24:27 -0500
Subject: conversion....
Message-ID: <mailman.31423.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

anyone know how to convert inches(mg?) manifold pressure (aviation) to
psi?
thanks,
rog



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  2 16:32:42 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 11:32:42 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31424.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
>
>Regards  Tom
>
Oh Yeah, it will!!!

Regards, Greg




From steve.ravet at arm.com  Sat Jan  2 16:46:51 1999
From: steve.ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 11:46:51 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: EFI software]
Message-ID: <mailman.31425.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Didn't someone upload the fit.zip file that went with the injector
flowbench article from PE magazine?  I thought so, but I can't find it. 
Anyway, if someone has it, or knows where it is on the FTP site, please
let me know so I can help this person, and add a link in the FTP site
index.  thanks

--steve


--
Steve Ravet
sravet at arm.com
Advanced Risc Machines, INC
www.arm.com
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Steve Ia am having trouble find a site to download the file (fit.zip) that
is talked about in Members nd Projects section.  It is in the article from
the Performance Engineering Magazine on building a injector flow bench.
I have tried to get in touch with John De Armond the author, but have no
success.  If you could give me a hint as where I might be able to download
this file it would be a big help.  Thanks Randy Calley



--------------6075ED02A33B765A2D5EF048--



From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan  2 16:55:35 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 11:55:35 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31426.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/2/99 11:38:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

> >How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>  >capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???

Some Buick & Syphoon turbo blokes use a *staged* pump
arrangement that allows you to pre-set the boost level at which
a second in-tank pump is switched on.  The kit includes a 30amp
relay and wire harness, etc   I believe one such kitt is available from ATR
Some users of this setup report a 2-5 psi jump in pressure when the 
extra fuel volume, from a second Walbro 308 pump, hits the FP regulator .
 I only wish to own/operate such a thirsty beast in my lifetime.  8~)
    Mike V


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan  2 17:01:05 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:01:05 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31427.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bill the arcstarter wrote:
> 
> Greg wrote:
> >And, while I am straying off list subjects--has anyone else seen the
> >news about a British photographer having applied for a patent for
> >using what is known in his trade as a "slave flash unit" for many
> >non-photographic applications, one of which was mounting such a unit
> >as one would mount either a driving and/or a back-up light for the
> >purpose of completely washing out the film image in a photo-radar
> >camera???? :-) (I happen to hate big brother stuff every bit as much
> >as I hate snake oil!!)
> 
> Oh - that sounds nice.  I had thought about a constant IR lamp blaring
> on the plate to fog the film.  Possibly via infrared leds/diode
> modules...  Most b/w film is sensitive to IR or so I'm told...
> 
> -Bill
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
But video tape is not? Digital photography allows them to "lift" numbers
from dirty plates etc by changing Gamma correction.


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan  2 17:14:03 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:14:03 -0500
Subject: Power ground
Message-ID: <mailman.31428.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Geoff Richards wrote:
> 
> Anyone have time to explain the difference between 'ground' and
> 'powerground'?
> TIA
> Geoff
I'll give it a crack.
In a DC power system on a car, the negative(usually) terminal uses a
"chassis ground" for power "return".This is your "power ground". It can
have a voltage drop of up to .1 volt across it for accessory and
charging loads, and up to one volt for starter loads.
For signal circuits, such as sensors, sometimes the .1 volt drop across
the frame ground could cause calibration errors, so a "signal ground" is
provided. Sometimes the signal can even "float" above chassis ground, as
through a protection diode with a, say, .6 volt forward voltage drop.
Can't use chassis ground return for such a signal.
Hope this helps understand it.


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan  2 17:55:35 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:55:35 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: EFI software]
Message-ID: <mailman.31429.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Ravet <steve.ravet at arm.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 02, 1999 11:59 AM
Subject: [Fwd: EFI software]

Numerous folks have looked for fit., but I haven't heard of anyone finding
it.
Bruce


>Didn't someone upload the fit.zip file that went with the injector
>flowbench article from PE magazine?  I thought so, but I can't find it.
>Anyway, if someone has it, or knows where it is on the FTP site, please
>let me know so I can help this person, and add a link in the FTP site
>index.  thanks
>
>--steve
>
>
>--
>Steve Ravet
>sravet at arm.com
>Advanced Risc Machines, INC
>www.arm.com



From John.Andrian at usa.net  Sat Jan  2 17:56:38 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:56:38 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31430.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Tom Sharpe wrote:
> 
> How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
> capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
> 
> Regards  Tom
> 
Already been done by Paxton.
"The Brain Pump Computer automatically reduces your high output fuel
pump's flow during street operation for improved efficiency. With the
flip of a switch, it creates a 2.4 voltage drop, reducing fuel flow and
allowing the pump to run cooler during street operation enhancing its
longlevity. Flip the switch back, and the pump returns to its normal
high volume flow."
Could be trigered by TPS or MAP.
Summit Racing part nu. pax-8002048 $119.95



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sat Jan  2 18:01:55 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:01:55 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31431.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 04:55 AM 1/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
>

That would be almost as bad as overvoltage...  Under voltage can kill them
as well.
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan  2 18:52:39 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:52:39 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31432.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: David A. Cooley <n5xmt at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Voltage regulator

Hence, the proper answer of PWM.
Bruce


>>How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>>capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
>
>That would be almost as bad as overvoltage...  Under voltage can kill them
>as well.
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be
approximated.
>===========================================================
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  2 18:55:04 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:55:04 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31433.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>In a message dated 1/2/99 11:38:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
>writes:
>
>> >How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>>  >capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
>
>Some Buick & Syphoon turbo blokes use a *staged* pump
>arrangement that allows you to pre-set the boost level at which
>a second in-tank pump is switched on.  The kit includes a 30amp
>relay and wire harness, etc   I believe one such kitt is available from ATR

Who and where is ATR??

>Some users of this setup report a 2-5 psi jump in pressure when the
>extra fuel volume, from a second Walbro 308 pump,

See the comment below, but this jump is simply demonstrating what I am
talking about below in terms of accuracy of pressure regulation. The port
in the regulator used is not big enough, plus it needs time to react.

Who is Walbro, where are they.??

Basically, I am looking for sources for good quality, large volume, but
really don't have to be high pressure, submersible fuel pumps.
Controlled voltage to a pump is still more elegant than staging, since
varying voltage to a DC motor varies its speed (and therefore the volume
output) infinitely.  Hence the desire for variable speed pump drive. Tom is
RIGHT! Running a big pump at lower voltage/speed most of the time will do
the job, and increase pump life IMPRESSIVELY!
If one wants to get seriously complicated, it is very feasible to vary the
speed of one pump, and then stage in a second, constant speed pump for big
loads. (The first, variable speed, pump slows back down when the second
pump first comes on, then speeds back up as load increases further.)

 hits the FP regulator .

It is way easier (and much more efficient and accurate) to regulate
pressure precisely if flow through the pressure regulator is fairly
constant.

> I only wish to own/operate such a thirsty beast in my lifetime.  8~)

The output would certainly be nice, but maybe with about 10% less thirst
would be even nicer!! :-)

Regards, Greg
>    Mike V




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  2 19:01:21 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:01:21 -0500
Subject: conversion....
Message-ID: <mailman.31434.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>anyone know how to convert inches(mg?) manifold pressure (aviation) to
>psi?
>thanks,
>rog

29.92 inches of mercury = 14.69 psia=1 atmosphere.

So, 1 inch of HG =  .491 psi.

Going on memory of the numbers, this is plenty accurate for engine work,
but DO NOT use it for calibrating an altimeter which might be depended upon
to keep you from flying into the ground (As in SPLAT :-(  !!! )

Regards, Greg




From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan  2 19:25:26 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:25:26 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31435.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

<< >Some Buick & Syphoon turbo blokes use a *staged* pump
> >arrangement that allows you to pre-set the boost level at which
> >a second in-tank pump is switched on.  The kit includes a 30amp
> >relay and wire harness, etc   I believe one such kitt is available from ATR
 
> Who and where is ATR?? >>
Sorry, about that
Applied Technologies and Research, Inc (ATR)
17040 S. Hwy 11
Fair Play, SC 29643
(864) 972 3800
(864) 972 4900 FAX


From sganz at wgn.net  Sat Jan  2 19:27:22 1999
From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:27:22 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31436.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Someone, might be barry grant ties the engine rpm to a controller that cuts
the voltage to the pump. Would be pretty easy to make with  a couple of parts. 

Sandy

At 04:55 AM 1/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
>
>Regards  Tom
>
>BossOz at aol.com wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 12/31/98 6:16:23 PM Central Standard Time,
>> cosmic.ray at juno.com writes:
>>
>> << egulator that will supply 12-16v (@ up to 40a >>
>> If all you want is 16v the cars alternator can supply that easily
>> But a performance pump would be the one to go
>
>



From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Sat Jan  2 19:31:52 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:31:52 -0500
Subject: Power ground
Message-ID: <mailman.31437.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  I have a 1982 280ZX turbo with the Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection.  I have been told that after modifying timing, etc. the battery ground should be disconnected for a period of time in order to reset the ECM.  I have also been told that both, negative and positive, terminals should be disconnected.  The time interval has been anywhere from 5 min to overnight.  Does the power ground,  as described below, explain why both terminals should be disconnected to reset the ECM??  Or am I reading to much into what is being said?  Could someone please tell me the correct way to reset the ECM?

At 12:14 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Geoff Richards wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone have time to explain the difference between 'ground' and
>> 'powerground'?
>> TIA
>> Geoff
>I'll give it a crack.
>In a DC power system on a car, the negative(usually) terminal uses a
>"chassis ground" for power "return".This is your "power ground". It can
>have a voltage drop of up to .1 volt across it for accessory and
>charging loads, and up to one volt for starter loads.
>For signal circuits, such as sensors, sometimes the .1 volt drop across
>the frame ground could cause calibration errors, so a "signal ground" is
>provided. Sometimes the signal can even "float" above chassis ground, as
>through a protection diode with a, say, .6 volt forward voltage drop.
>Can't use chassis ground return for such a signal.
>Hope this helps understand it.
>
>


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sat Jan  2 19:40:33 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:40:33 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31438.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 11:52 AM 1/2/99 -0700, you wrote:

>>Some Buick & Syphoon turbo blokes use a *staged* pump
>>arrangement that allows you to pre-set the boost level at which
>>a second in-tank pump is switched on.  The kit includes a 30amp
>>relay and wire harness, etc   I believe one such kitt is available from ATR
>
>Who and where is ATR??
>

Applied Technologies and Research in Fairplay, SC


>
>Who is Walbro, where are they.??
>

Walbro is a pump manufacturer... they make a lot of the AC/Delco pumps and
the aftermarket replacements.


===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sat Jan  2 19:41:46 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:41:46 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31439.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:

>
>Hence, the proper answer of PWM.

Exactly!
The pump still sees full voltage, it just has it for a limited time!

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  2 19:43:00 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:43:00 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31440.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>At 04:55 AM 1/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>>capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
>>
>
>That would be almost as bad as overvoltage...  Under voltage can kill them
>as well.

NO. For a shunt would DC motor, Voltage relates to speed, Current to
torque. Field current and voltage want to be pretty constant for correct
excitation.

Too high a current (cooks the insulation with heat) or a voltage high
enough to break down the insulation are the two failure modes for motor
windings (this applies to all types of motors.)

For series wound DC motors, more complex, but voltage control of speed
still works, and without hurting durability, as long as you do not stall
one (with an overload) with too high a current going through it. You just
cannot expect to get full rated torque at lower applied voltages, cuz you
will not have enough excitation.  Even so, with a liquid cooled motor, like
most fuel pumps are, it is pretty hard to cook one this way.

What you need to watch with a PWM scheme for lowering the voltage to a DC
motor is to have good filtering/smoothing on the output to the motor--the
high frequencies from the PWM switching can be quite hard on the windings
from a mechanical standpoint.

Regards, Greg
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>===========================================================




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sat Jan  2 19:44:02 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:44:02 -0500
Subject: Power ground
Message-ID: <mailman.31441.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 01:32 PM 1/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>  I have a 1982 280ZX turbo with the Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection.  I 
>have been told that after modifying timing, etc. the battery ground should 
>be disconnected for a period of time in order to reset the ECM.  I have also 
>been told that both, negative and positive, terminals should be 
>disconnected.  The time interval has been anywhere from 5 min to overnight.  
>Does the power ground,  as described below, explain why both terminals 
>should be disconnected to reset the ECM??  Or am I reading to much into what 
>is being said?  Could someone please tell me the correct way to reset the ECM?

The memory of the computer is stored in RAM that is fed by the car battery
(thru the appropriate regulators etc).
Due to the low current drain of the RAM, you'll need to disconnect one
battery terminal (not both) and probably leave them off for 5 minutes for
all capacitors in the ECM to fully discharge.
Later,
Dave

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan  2 19:54:36 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:54:36 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31442.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/2/99 2:02:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

> 
>  Who is Walbro, where are they.??
>  
They make fuel pumps..Not sure where they are located..
There are often "group purchases" going on on the 
Buick and Syclone/Typhoon lists to buy there products..
The pump I was referring to is an in-tank unit that produces 
255 litres per hour at 38 psi..  GroupPurchase prices are 
generally around US$100 or maybe a little less.. 
Mike V.


From jqadir at direct.ca  Sat Jan  2 19:56:09 1999
From: jqadir at direct.ca (jq)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:56:09 -0500
Subject: Sensor Sampling Rates
Message-ID: <mailman.31443.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Does anyone know the sampling rate of each of the sensors?

specifically '90 L98 (350 V8)



From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Sat Jan  2 20:52:35 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 15:52:35 -0500
Subject: oops.......... smog patrol ........
Message-ID: <mailman.31444.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If you are running headers with a low restriction exhaust system a properly 
placed air inlet tube in the vicinity of the collectors will draw in fresh 
air or could be connected to a compressed air tank. Drag racers have been 
using this method for years to evacuate the oil pan ( neg. pressure) to 
help seal the rings. A few year ago Car Craft ran an article on a 455 
Pontiac race motor and getting it to pass the '92 standards IM240 emission 
test. They used this method to introduce 02 upstream of the cat's. You need 
an low differential pressure anti-reversion valve typically used in late 
'70 early '80's AIR systems. Sure wish that my wife didn't through out that 
edition. The article ran Aug. '95 or Aug. '96.

----------
From: 	Greg Hermann[SMTP:bearbvd at sni.net]
Sent: 	January 1, 1999 9:49 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: oops... (was Re: Nology)

>Oh yea - one more thing - you don't need to trigger the LCD from a camera
>flash, just
>drive it from a RADAR detector. Pick the signal off the red LED, and throw
>in a 10
>second delay before the LCD is allowed to return to normal.
>
Great thinkin' as to how to turn on any such countermeasures!!

Mebbe a mottled pattern high intensity light, filtered to match a plate
color and aimed at the plate would work better (and cheaper) than an LED
screen. (Plus it would, technically, not be "obscuring" the plate.) Make it
a thirty second delay, and add a light for the rear plate just to be sure!

Nest question--what do we use to trigger (turn on) the same lights in the
presence of one of the roadside smog sniffers (which I think are infra-red
based.)

Regards, Greg





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From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Sat Jan  2 20:52:45 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 15:52:45 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31445.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Any know of a source for these pumps?

----------
From: 	ECMnut at aol.com[SMTP:ECMnut at aol.com]
Sent: 	January 2, 1999 9:54 AM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters

In a message dated 1/2/99 11:38:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

> >How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>  >capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???

Some Buick & Syphoon turbo blokes use a *staged* pump
arrangement that allows you to pre-set the boost level at which
a second in-tank pump is switched on.  The kit includes a 30amp
relay and wire harness, etc   I believe one such kitt is available from ATR
Some users of this setup report a 2-5 psi jump in pressure when the 
extra fuel volume, from a second Walbro 308 pump, hits the FP regulator .
 I only wish to own/operate such a thirsty beast in my lifetime.  8~)
    Mike V


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From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Sat Jan  2 20:52:54 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 15:52:54 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31446.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Any contact info for Walbro ?

----------
From: 	David A. Cooley[SMTP:n5xmt at bellsouth.net]
Sent: 	January 2, 1999 12:40 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters

At 11:52 AM 1/2/99 -0700, you wrote:

>>Some Buick & Syphoon turbo blokes use a *staged* pump
>>arrangement that allows you to pre-set the boost level at which
>>a second in-tank pump is switched on.  The kit includes a 30amp
>>relay and wire harness, etc   I believe one such kitt is available from ATR
>
>Who and where is ATR??
>

Applied Technologies and Research in Fairplay, SC


>
>Who is Walbro, where are they.??
>

Walbro is a pump manufacturer... they make a lot of the AC/Delco pumps and
the aftermarket replacements.


===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


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From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Sat Jan  2 21:02:07 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 16:02:07 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31447.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

http://www.walbro.com/product/auto_pro/el_fpump.htm



----------
From: 	ECMnut at aol.com[SMTP:ECMnut at aol.com]
Sent: 	January 2, 1999 12:54 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters

In a message dated 1/2/99 2:02:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

> 
>  Who is Walbro, where are they.??
>  
They make fuel pumps..Not sure where they are located..
There are often "group purchases" going on on the 
Buick and Syclone/Typhoon lists to buy there products..
The pump I was referring to is an in-tank unit that produces 
255 litres per hour at 38 psi..  GroupPurchase prices are 
generally around US$100 or maybe a little less.. 
Mike V.


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end



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan  2 21:05:48 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 16:05:48 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31448.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

David A. Cooley wrote:
> 
> At 04:55 AM 1/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
> >capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
> >
> 
> That would be almost as bad as overvoltage...  Under voltage can kill them
> as well.
> ===========================================================
>            David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>      Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>        I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
> ===========================================================
Actually, no. An AC motor is definitely sensitive to low voltage, for
various reasons. A DC motor does NOT suffer this way. A 24 volt motor
will run on 12 volts virtually forever, as long as the load placed on it
does not cause it to overload and overheat, or most dangerous, stall.
Using PWM control is better yet, as it does NOT reduce the peak
voltage/torque at all - it just modulates it. PWM control on a DC type
motor reduces speed without APPRECIABLY reducing torque.This "chopper"
type control, with feedback, could be used to control fuel pressure as
accurately as the current vacuum modulated spring type regulators - if
you can also control "bypass" to avoid vapour problems.


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan  2 21:16:36 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 16:16:36 -0500
Subject: Power ground
Message-ID: <mailman.31449.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence Wood wrote:
> 
>   I have a 1982 280ZX turbo with the Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection.  I have been told that after modifying timing, etc. the battery ground should be disconnected for a period of time in order to reset the ECM.  I have also been told that both, negative and positive, terminals should be disconnected.  The time interval has been anywhere from 5 min to overnight.  Does the power ground,  as described below, explain why both terminals should be disconnected to reset the ECM??  Or am I reading to m
>
Most (japanese) ECUs have several power supplies - at least one of which
is full time, non switched, to maintain non-volatile memory (it's
volatile with power disconnected) On a Toyota, for instance, there was
both an ECU 1 and an ECU 2 fuse. Removing the right one would reset the
codes on the ECU in about 15 seconds - unless you had the brake pedal
depressed, in which case enough voltage filtered through to maintain the
memory. Removing both terminals will definitely ensure the memory is
dumped, but will also, in all likelihood, loose all settings on your
radio etc.
Remember, CMOS memory is basically a whole slew of capacitors which hold
a voltage to indicate o logic one, and no voltage for logic zero (unless
you are running negative logic, where it is reversed) Virtually vo
"power" or current flow is required - so ANY voltage applied to the
circuit can prevent resetting.

 
> At 12:14 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Geoff Richards wrote:
> >>
> >> Anyone have time to explain the difference between 'ground' and
> >> 'powerground'?
> >> TIA
> >> Geoff
> >I'll give it a crack.
> >In a DC power system on a car, the negative(usually) terminal uses a
> >"chassis ground" for power "return".This is your "power ground". It can
> >have a voltage drop of up to .1 volt across it for accessory and
> >charging loads, and up to one volt for starter loads.
> >For signal circuits, such as sensors, sometimes the .1 volt drop across
> >the frame ground could cause calibration errors, so a "signal ground" is
> >provided. Sometimes the signal can even "float" above chassis ground, as
> >through a protection diode with a, say, .6 volt forward voltage drop.
> >Can't use chassis ground return for such a signal.
> >Hope this helps understand it.
> >
> >


From wsherwin at idirect.com  Sat Jan  2 21:18:37 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 16:18:37 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31450.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Just a thought..............How about running two parallel in-tank pumps &
socks, at full voltage, all of the time, and installing two bypass
regulators in the return side of the fuel recirculating loop so as to avoid
non-linear pressure response?  This could ensure ample flow, adequate
control, and less electronic gadgetry?

Both Bosch and Walbro have some hefty, in-tank, submersible pumps that in
tandem can feed well beyond 1000 Hp!




-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 02, 1999 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters


>>In a message dated 1/2/99 11:38:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bearbvd at sni.net
>>writes:
>>
>>> >How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>>>  >capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
>>
>>Some Buick & Syphoon turbo blokes use a *staged* pump
>>arrangement that allows you to pre-set the boost level at which
>>a second in-tank pump is switched on.  The kit includes a 30amp
>>relay and wire harness, etc   I believe one such kitt is available from
ATR
>
>Who and where is ATR??
>
>>Some users of this setup report a 2-5 psi jump in pressure when the
>>extra fuel volume, from a second Walbro 308 pump,
>
>See the comment below, but this jump is simply demonstrating what I am
>talking about below in terms of accuracy of pressure regulation. The port
>in the regulator used is not big enough, plus it needs time to react.
>
>Who is Walbro, where are they.??
>
>Basically, I am looking for sources for good quality, large volume, but
>really don't have to be high pressure, submersible fuel pumps.
>Controlled voltage to a pump is still more elegant than staging, since
>varying voltage to a DC motor varies its speed (and therefore the volume
>output) infinitely.  Hence the desire for variable speed pump drive. Tom is
>RIGHT! Running a big pump at lower voltage/speed most of the time will do
>the job, and increase pump life IMPRESSIVELY!
>If one wants to get seriously complicated, it is very feasible to vary the
>speed of one pump, and then stage in a second, constant speed pump for big
>loads. (The first, variable speed, pump slows back down when the second
>pump first comes on, then speeds back up as load increases further.)
>
> hits the FP regulator .
>
>It is way easier (and much more efficient and accurate) to regulate
>pressure precisely if flow through the pressure regulator is fairly
>constant.
>
>> I only wish to own/operate such a thirsty beast in my lifetime.  8~)
>
>The output would certainly be nice, but maybe with about 10% less thirst
>would be even nicer!! :-)
>
>Regards, Greg
>>    Mike V
>
>



From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Sat Jan  2 21:26:20 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 16:26:20 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31451.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  In case you want to salvage a unit off of a junker:  1982 Nissan Turbo units have a Fuel Pump Control Modulator that "monitors engine conditions (engine rpm, cylinder head temp, injector operating pulse width, etc.) and controls the voltage supplied to the fuel pump."  The pumps draws battery voltage when: engine cranking, above 3,200 rpm, injector pulse width above 3.5 m sec, cylinder head temp of 100 deg C (212 deg F), battery voltage below 9.8V:  other than those conditions it draws 9.8V.  The unit can be found just above the ECCS control unit on drivers side, inside car. 

At 07:43 PM 12/31/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Tom Sharpe wrote:
>> 
>> How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>> capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
>> 
>> Regards  Tom
>> 
>Already been done by Paxton.
>"The Brain Pump Computer automatically reduces your high output fuel
>pump's flow during street operation for improved efficiency. With the
>flip of a switch, it creates a 2.4 voltage drop, reducing fuel flow and
>allowing the pump to run cooler during street operation enhancing its
>longlevity. Flip the switch back, and the pump returns to its normal
>high volume flow."
>Could be trigered by TPS or MAP.
>Summit Racing part nu. pax-8002048 $119.95
>
>


From ChvyRs92 at aol.com  Sat Jan  2 22:37:37 1999
From: ChvyRs92 at aol.com (ChvyRs92 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:37:37 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31452.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I have a 92 Camaro that had a v-6 in it, I recently purchased a 92 Corvette
LT-1 motor with both computers (the ECM, and the CCM ). My big problem is
figuring out how to wire the new motor. I know of a few aftermarket companies
that sell wiring harnesses, but they are pretty expensive and I don't know if
I really need them because I have the stock Corvette harness. I am also
curious if I need to disable the VATS or can I wire it up to the module
currently in my 92 Camaro? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sat Jan  2 22:50:46 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:50:46 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31453.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'll check and see

At 01:54 PM 1/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Any contact info for Walbro ?
>
>----------
>From: 	David A. Cooley[SMTP:n5xmt at bellsouth.net]
>Sent: 	January 2, 1999 12:40 PM
>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
>
>At 11:52 AM 1/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>>Some Buick & Syphoon turbo blokes use a *staged* pump
>>>arrangement that allows you to pre-set the boost level at which
>>>a second in-tank pump is switched on.  The kit includes a 30amp
>>>relay and wire harness, etc   I believe one such kitt is available from ATR
>>
>>Who and where is ATR??
>>
>
>Applied Technologies and Research in Fairplay, SC
>
>
>>
>>Who is Walbro, where are they.??
>>
>
>Walbro is a pump manufacturer... they make a lot of the AC/Delco pumps and
>the aftermarket replacements.
>
>
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>===========================================================
>
>
>
>

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From steve.ravet at arm.com  Sat Jan  2 22:58:51 1999
From: steve.ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:58:51 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: EFI software]
Message-ID: <mailman.31454.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



ECMnut at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi Steve,
> sorry to bother you without the answer you seek...
> Is this injector flowbench article online ???
> I'd love to see it..
> Thanks,
> Mike V
> Chardon, Ohio

Yes, the flowbench article is on the diy_efi WWW page, under the members
and projects link.  It's 20 jpeg images that were scanned from the
magazine.  If anyone can OCR those to text files please step forward.

--steve

--
Steve Ravet
sravet at arm.com
Advanced Risc Machines, INC
www.arm.com


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sat Jan  2 23:25:37 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:25:37 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31455.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Have you ever considered going with an AWD setup?  Perhaps the Audi setup
>would work.  They split the torque between the front and rear wheels
>using a Zexel Torsen type differential.  That way, all four wheels will
>grab, but the front will not tend to spin out and rob power from the rear
>when the front end starts to get light.

Nope, can't say that I have. I spent a lot of time trying to "fangle" or
fabricate such a system, and unless I mounted the engine behind the rear
axle, aka VW Bug, I didn't see a way of doing it with OEM/Junkyard parts.

I did however come up with two solutions - one require extensive
fabrication, one not.

The first would be to go rear-engine, and use a 180 degree rotated subaru
manual tranny (AWD), and go from there.

The second would be to tap the ring gear in a FWD Eldorado transmission
(early 80's), also mounted upside down.  Neither appealed to me out of
effort, weight, and putting the engine behind the rear axle. a 50/50 weight
distribution really excites me :)

>What does Lambroghini use for its Diablo?  Could one of those transfer
>cases be obtained for less than a mint?  Does Porsche have any AWD
>models?

Not sure about the Lambo, but I believe Porsche does have a AWD vehicle,
but if I do remember correctly, its rear-mounted engine wise.


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sat Jan  2 23:25:37 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:25:37 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31456.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Go for the stage II. You want to be able to accelerate from 100 to 150 like a
>CanAm car.  Most transmissions are limited by torque in low gear (&
second) on

Naaaah, I won't be pounding on it that much, since the vehicle weight is
not enough to support the power level, unless there is enough downforce.  I
won't be at that point on the street hopefully, if I am, something is
seriously wrong (or my radar detector is working <G>).  Seriously, I am
gravely concerned about the power/weight ratio, and might add extra weight
in the form of making the sprung weight (i.e. roll cage) much stronger,
thicker, better triangulated.

>racer) will hook up), it will last for ever. if you are worried, just use a
>marginal clutch and replace it every year or so. (Or just keep your foot
out of
>it in low).

I don't mind replacing clutches, if that saves the transmission.

>about the Porsche more than the Audi as the Porsche is designed for high
RPM HP
>and the Audi more for street torque. What is the Torque output of the

Not sure what the specs of either are as rated from the Factory.  Kennedy
Engineering, who makes various adaptors for the Porsche & VW Bug transaxles
to other engines (chevy 350 for example) rate the Porsche unit (G50-50) to
700 HP.  I for one think that's in 5th gear, at 200 MPH.  I can't see 1st
gear taking that.  Like you said, the Porsche's make their power at the
mid/top ends, not at 1500 RPM for the most part.

The Audi 016 transaxle which is the one I have (or is it 013, I forget), is
rated to 400 HP, but again, its at the higher RPMs.  A friend of mine has a
5 cyl turbo motor that was dyno'd at 450 HP (at the flywheel), and has
shredded 1st gear when popping the clutch at higher RPMs.  Of course, this
car is not designed for what he's using it for (german made 4-door sleeper)

>Porsche?)  Look at the diameter of the output shafts (pinion shafts) and
>bearings, pick the larger.

Good advice, thank you :)

>One more thing about Turbo motors.  If your motor sounds funny and you
pull the
>pan off an there are a dozen pieces of piston skirt laying in the bottom
of the
>pan, it's detonation. Been there, done that, won that T-shirt.

Yes, been there done that.  However I didn't get a T-Shirt Tom, who gave
you yours? <grin>


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sat Jan  2 23:25:38 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:25:38 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31457.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Do you have any pictures of your monster engine, I would love to hear more 
>details.Very impressing acomplishment .

I have them, unfortunately they are on a laptop that I dropped. The drive
is okay, I just need to transplant it into something that works, since the
display/systemboard is garbage :)

The homemade manifold does look pretty cool.  Picture dinosour rib cage
with injectors all over it :)


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Sat Jan  2 23:35:48 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:35:48 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31458.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Folks,
        I have used an RPM activated switch from Mallory(I am sure MSD's would
work too) to turn on the Boost a Pump from Kenne Bell or Whipple.....You can
insert a resistor (has built in 2 way weatherpack)to control how much you want
the boost a pump to increase the voltage...no resistor = 21.5 volts  2k
resistor = 17 volts.....also can use the rpm switch activated from the MAF
meter instead so at a certain airflow the pump is squeezed on, then use
another to shut a solenoid in the return line if even more fuel is required at
a higher MAF.....just some thoughts....
-Carl Summers


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  2 23:44:03 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:44:03 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31459.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>
>>Hence, the proper answer of PWM.
>
>Exactly!
>The pump still sees full voltage, it just has it for a limited time!

C'mon--the PWM switch LOWERS the AVERAGE voltage by switching teh FULL
voltage on and off rapidly. As I said, you want good smoothing of the
output, cuz the rapid pulsing IS what will dissassemble the windings!

Regards, Greg
>
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>===========================================================




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  2 23:44:05 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:44:05 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31460.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>David A. Cooley wrote:
>>
>> At 04:55 AM 1/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> >How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
>> >capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
>> >
>>
>> That would be almost as bad as overvoltage...  Under voltage can kill them
>> as well.
>> ===========================================================
>>            David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>>      Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>>        I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>> ===========================================================
>Actually, no. An AC motor is definitely sensitive to low voltage, for
>various reasons.

An AC motor will make full torque below its rated speed if the
voltage/frequency ratio given to it is the same as at its rated speed. At
any given frequency and speed, the voltage which an AC motor needs to
produce a given fraction of its rated torque is the same proportion of its
rated voltage as the torque load is of the motor's rated torque. Feeding
the motor more than the required voltage when it is loaded to less than its
rated torque (as is commonly done) results in an efficiency loss due to an
increase in the IR loss in the windings.

A DC motor does NOT suffer this way. A 24 volt motor
>will run on 12 volts virtually forever, as long as the load placed on it
>does not cause it to overload and overheat, or most dangerous, stall.

The current/load/speed/torque characteristics for a shunt wound DC motor
were outlined in an earlier post.

A series wound DC motor's characteristic is a hyperbolic curve: very high
torque at low speed, very low torque at very high speed. As long as your
particular torque/speed requirement is not above this curve, it will do the
job. If you overload it with too much torque, it will slow down, or even
stall, trying to meet the load. Stalling IS NOT detrimental to a series
wound motor so long as it has enough cooling to dissipate the heat produced
by the IR loss in its windings by the applied current (which, of course, is
a function of the applied voltage). Said cooling can be produced by any
combination of the following, even if the motor is stalled: adequate frame
size, submersion in a liquid, or a separately driven cooling fan.
Naturally, a cooling fan driven by the motor shaft will not give any
cooling if the motor is stalled.

Consider the following: diesel-electric railroad locomotives use DC
traction motors. they have switchable windings, but in starting to move a
train from rest, the traction motors are put in a series wound
configuration. And they are most certainly asked to produce a VERY high
torque while stalled, and then while running at a VERY low speed!! (At
higher speeds, locomotive motors are switched through various combinations
of series/shunt and into full shunt at high speeds.)

The moral of this story is that ADEQUATE HEAT DISSIPATION of IR losses in
the windings and eddy current losses in the core is the key to making any
electric motor live a long, happy life. (As long as you do not act like a
racer, and spin it fast enough to make its windings fly apart!!)  8-)

>Using PWM control is better yet, as it does NOT reduce the peak
>voltage/torque at all - it just modulates it. PWM control on a DC type
>motor reduces speed without APPRECIABLY reducing torque.

To claim that there is not enough inductance in the motor windings to
smooth out the highs and lows of the PWM voltage notches is living in
dreamland or a sign of having ingested too much egg-nog!!

Regards, Greg




From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Sat Jan  2 23:45:02 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:45:02 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31461.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/2/99 2:47:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, ChvyRs92 at aol.com
writes:

<< Subj:	 92 Corvette LT-1
 Date:	1/2/99 2:47:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	ChvyRs92 at aol.com
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 I have a 92 Camaro that had a v-6 in it, I recently purchased a 92 Corvette
 LT-1 motor with both computers (the ECM, and the CCM ). My big problem is
 figuring out how to wire the new motor. I know of a few aftermarket companies
 that sell wiring harnesses, but they are pretty expensive and I don't know if
 I really need them because I have the stock Corvette harness. I am also
 curious if I need to disable the VATS or can I wire it up to the module
 currently in my 92 Camaro? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
Hello,
     In my opinion I think it would be best to get the GM service manuals for
both vehicles so you have an accurate schematic for both wiring
harness'....then start cutting.......If you have a prom reader/burner  I'm
sure one of us on this list could give you the address info to eliminate your
VATS....otherwise you might want to spend a couple of bucks and send it to one
of us willing to do some custom work on the chip for you.....Hypertech,JET and
others can do this also..........hth's
-Carl Summers


From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan  2 23:45:54 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:45:54 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator, now fuel system boosters
Message-ID: <mailman.31462.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/2/99 3:59:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mpiccioni at attcanada.net writes:

> Any know of a source for these pumps?
>  
Ron Gregory, who sometimes lurks this list,
runs group purchase activities for the Syclone/Typhoon list.
The 255 lph pump was under $100 US (with install kit) when I 
bought one through him in May.  His email is 
           rgregory at chrysalis.org
255 lph is supposed to be enough for 700hp.
Never been there..Works great with my 350hp V6.. 
HTH
Mike V


From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Sat Jan  2 23:48:01 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:48:01 -0500
Subject: Power ground
Message-ID: <mailman.31463.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Clarence L.Snyder wrote:

> > Anyone have time to explain the difference between 'ground' and
> > 'powerground'?
> > TIA
> > Geoff
> I'll give it a crack.
> In a DC power system on a car, the negative(usually) terminal uses a
> "chassis ground" for power "return".This is your "power ground". It can
> have a voltage drop of up to .1 volt across it for accessory and
> charging loads, and up to one volt for starter loads.
> For signal circuits, such as sensors, sometimes the .1 volt drop across
> the frame ground could cause calibration errors, so a "signal ground" is
> provided. Sometimes the signal can even "float" above chassis ground, as
> through a protection diode with a, say, .6 volt forward voltage drop.
> Can't use chassis ground return for such a signal.
> Hope this helps understand it.
> 

So in other words, high amperage and low amperage devices should have
seperate ground paths to the battery??



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan  2 23:53:49 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:53:49 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31464.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 2 Jan 1999 EFISYSTEMS at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/2/99 2:47:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, ChvyRs92 at aol.com
> writes:
> 
> Hello,
>      In my opinion I think it would be best to get the GM service manuals for
> both vehicles so you have an accurate schematic for both wiring
> harness'....then start cutting.......If you have a prom reader/burner  I'm
> sure one of us on this list could give you the address info to eliminate your
> VATS....otherwise you might want to spend a couple of bucks and send it to one
> of us willing to do some custom work on the chip for you.....Hypertech,JET and
> others can do this also..........hth's
> -Carl Summers
> 

I am working on reverse engineering the addresses for a 93 Z28 LT1 A4
which I believe uses the same computer and probably almost the same
prom for both 92/93.  If you have a prom burner you might send me a
copy and I will see how different it is.  

Mine is an A4 so if yours came from a non-A4 there might be some
differences there.

			Roger



From steve.ravet at arm.com  Sat Jan  2 23:55:51 1999
From: steve.ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:55:51 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31465.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Pete Fenske can tell you about the VATS.  I faced a similar wiring
problem when I put a V8 in my S-10 Blazer (replaced the 2.8 which is
probably exactly what you did also).  Anyway, if you have the ECM and
engine harness then you are 90% there.  The only things that pass
through the bulkhead connector are sensors that drive dash gauges, A/C
controls, wiper controls, fused and unfused power and ground, fuel pump
power, and some other things like that.  If you look at the pinout of
the bulkhead connectors for both the engine and the car, you'll see that
they are mostly the same wires.  You just need to connect them
appropriately.  Here's what I did:

I wanted to keep the old engine intact as much as possible, so I went to
a junkyard and bought a bulkhead connector that matched the one in my
truck.  If you go buy one get one that is close to your model including
year and options.  That way you'll get all the right wires in all the
right colors.  Cut the wires as long as possible.  Or you can cut up
your bulkhead connector if you don't care about it.

Cut off the LT1 bulkhead connector, you won't be using it.  Cut it also
so that the wires are as long as possible.  Wire by wire, connect
matching wires from the LT1 bulkhead to the Camaro bulkhead.  Having the
schematics for both helps trememdously.  At first, twist and tape them,
using bright green or red tape.  Then start the car to see if it runs
OK.  If it seems OK, use good crimp on connectors to permanently connect
the wires, and solder them after crimping.  The bright tape helps
locating the connections.

Put the wires back into the black plastic loom that they were in, and
cut the wires to a sensible length so they run in a nice bundle.  I know
this isn't very specific, but every swap like this is unique.  write me
back if you have more questions.

--steve

ChvyRs92 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have a 92 Camaro that had a v-6 in it, I recently purchased a 92 Corvette
> LT-1 motor with both computers (the ECM, and the CCM ). My big problem is
> figuring out how to wire the new motor. I know of a few aftermarket companies
> that sell wiring harnesses, but they are pretty expensive and I don't know if
> I really need them because I have the stock Corvette harness. I am also
> curious if I need to disable the VATS or can I wire it up to the module
> currently in my 92 Camaro? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

--
Steve Ravet
sravet at arm.com
Advanced Risc Machines, INC
www.arm.com


From KD6JDJ at aol.com  Sun Jan  3 00:04:39 1999
From: KD6JDJ at aol.com (KD6JDJ at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:04:39 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31466.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  An engine swap can be a rewiring career. I bought a book from Steve Smith
Autosports that impresses me. It is written by a couple of very experienced
guys who try to educate you on how to do --what you are doing , with
installing an injected motor into your Camero.
  My book is out on loan. Steve is in Orange or Santa Ana California.

   Jerry 


From AL8001 at aol.com  Sun Jan  3 00:16:28 1999
From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:16:28 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31467.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 99-01-02 18:49:42 EST, bearbvd at sni.net writes:

>The current/load/speed/torque characteristics for a shunt wound DC motor
>were outlined in an earlier post.
>
>A series wound DC motor's characteristic is a hyperbolic curve: very high
>torque at low speed, very low torque at very high speed. 

It's good to know shunt/ series motor theory.  Though it's full effect is lost
on the original app discussed ( running a OEM fuel pump at a < or > voltage)
Most if not all OEM intank or external pumps are permanent magnet style.  The
Holley Blue or Red pump may have field coils as well as some other aftermarket
pumps.

As for running a pump at reduced voltage.  The ~85 Merkur XR4Ti 2.3 Turbo (
same engine as a SVO Mustang) uses a resistor wire simillar to a ignition
resistor.  The ~ 86 Reanult Alliance ( ala American Motors) used a regular
ingition ballast resistor in series with the pump.   

I seem to remember some make of car using a resistor to reduce pump noise as
low throttle openings. Then bypassing the resistor near WOT to insure adequate
fuel flow.

I think late model Chryslers use a variable (most likely PWM ) fuel pump on
their single line EFI systems.  They have eliminated the return line on some
engines.

Harold


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan  3 00:17:54 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:17:54 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31468.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 06:25 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Have you ever considered going with an AWD setup?  Perhaps the Audi setup
>>would work.  They split the torque between the front and rear wheels
>>using a Zexel Torsen type differential.  That way, all four wheels will
>>grab, but the front will not tend to spin out and rob power from the rear
>>when the front end starts to get light.
>
>Nope, can't say that I have. I spent a lot of time trying to "fangle" or
>fabricate such a system, and unless I mounted the engine behind the rear
>axle, aka VW Bug, I didn't see a way of doing it with OEM/Junkyard parts.
>
>I did however come up with two solutions - one require extensive
>fabrication, one not.
>
>The first would be to go rear-engine, and use a 180 degree rotated subaru
>manual tranny (AWD), and go from there.
>

Not sure if the Porsche 930 is AWD, but it's transaxle can handle a VERY
modified Chevy 350...
Guy in Los Angeles had a Porsche 911 with an honest 450 HP 350 V8 and a 930
transaxle... Went for a ride once that scared even me!

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan  3 00:29:27 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:29:27 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31469.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

All my info on burning out fuel pumps came from listening to the guys that
race GN's...  Guess I should have listened to my electronics theory instead!
There is something to be said for running a larger guage wire from the
battery to a relay and the relay to the pump, switching the relay from the
old pump supply wire... The GN list did a test a while back... Voltage at
the pump while running (13.6V at the battery) was only 11 volts or so with
the factory wiring... adding the "hot wire" as they called it bumped
voltage to 13.2 or so and the volume of the pump increased considerably.
The GN web page has some charts one of the guys made relating voltage to
fuel volume on several different pumps.
http://www.gnttype.org/gnttype/www 
and look in Tech Info
Later,
Dave


===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan  3 00:36:58 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:36:58 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31470.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If the original poster writes me, I'll send a 555 circuit for trial.
Include our address in text, please.
Bruce



From KD6JDJ at aol.com  Sun Jan  3 00:40:13 1999
From: KD6JDJ at aol.com (KD6JDJ at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:40:13 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31471.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  This bit of information MAY be of interest to thoes of us who want to
homebrew a DC motor control by reducing its voltage input.
  Put forward biased diodes in series with the motor to lower its received
voltage. Each diode will lower the  voltage to the motor by about 3/4 volts. 
  The locked shaft (or stall) torque is greatly improved when diodes are used
in place of resistors. 
  
    Jerry


From John.Andrian at usa.net  Sun Jan  3 00:40:38 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:40:38 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31472.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence L.Snyder wrote:
> 
> David A. Cooley wrote:
> >
> > At 04:55 AM 1/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
> > >How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
> > >capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
> > >
> >
> > That would be almost as bad as overvoltage...  Under voltage can kill them
> > as well.
> > ===========================================================
> >            David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
> >      Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
> >        I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
> > ===========================================================
> Actually, no. An AC motor is definitely sensitive to low voltage, for
> various reasons. A DC motor does NOT suffer this way. A 24 volt motor
> will run on 12 volts virtually forever, as long as the load placed on it
> does not cause it to overload and overheat, or most dangerous, stall.
> Using PWM control is better yet, as it does NOT reduce the peak
> voltage/torque at all - it just modulates it. PWM control on a DC type
> motor reduces speed without APPRECIABLY reducing torque.This "chopper"
> type control, with feedback, could be used to control fuel pressure as
> accurately as the current vacuum modulated spring type regulators - if
> you can also control "bypass" to avoid vapour problems.

The Carrol supecharging company has a unit capable of this.Its called a
Superpumper.They say " Electronicaly regulates fuel pump pressure in
response to manifold pressure. Replaces FMU on supercharged Mustangs,
Camaros and other vehicles for more power. Adjust your fuel curve from
inside the cockpit. Can actually increse the fuel pump's output by 20%
more."
Sounds interesting for forced induction applications but has the same
rerstrictions as FMU(rising rate fuel pressure regulators-usually 6:1
ratio of fuel press. increse over manifold press. increase when manifold
press. positive.). Boost limit is around 10 psi. At least I wouldnt like
driving injectors at over 90psi for any length of time.
For anyone interested their phone is +12018351660.



From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Sun Jan  3 00:42:13 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 19:42:13 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31473.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:25:33 -0500 Frederic Breitwieser
<frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com> writes:
>>Have you ever considered going with an AWD setup?  Perhaps the Audi
setup
>>would work.  They split the torque between the front and rear wheels
>>using a Zexel Torsen type differential.  That way, all four wheels will
>>grab, but the front will not tend to spin out and rob power from the
rear
>>when the front end starts to get light.
>
>Nope, can't say that I have. I spent a lot of time trying to "fangle" or
>fabricate such a system, and unless I mounted the engine behind the rear
>axle, aka VW Bug, I didn't see a way of doing it with OEM/Junkyard
parts.
>
>I did however come up with two solutions - one require extensive
>fabrication, one not.
>
>The first would be to go rear-engine, and use a 180 degree rotated
subaru
>manual tranny (AWD), and go from there.
>
>The second would be to tap the ring gear in a FWD Eldorado transmission
>(early 80's), also mounted upside down.  Neither appealed to me out of
>effort, weight, and putting the engine behind the rear axle. a 50/50
weight
>distribution really excites me :)
>
>>What does Lambroghini use for its Diablo?  Could one of those transfer
>>cases be obtained for less than a mint?  Does Porsche have any AWD
>>models?
>
>Not sure about the Lambo, but I believe Porsche does have a AWD vehicle,
>but if I do remember correctly, its rear-mounted engine wise.
>
>
>Frederic Breitwieser
>Bridgeport, CT 06606
>
>Homebrew Automotive Website:
>http://www.xephic.dynip.com/
>
>1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
>1989 HMMWV
>1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
>1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
>2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

Without knowing the details of your vehicle, I can't be sure what would
fit.  I was thinking along the lines of a standard front
engine/tranny/t-case assembly mounted in the middle of the vehicle
backwards.  This would leave you with the task of dealing with an offset
rear driveshaft, but that won't cause much trouble if you going with
four-wheel independant suspension.

Ray Drouillard

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From arcstarter at hotmail.com  Sun Jan  3 01:21:13 1999
From: arcstarter at hotmail.com (Bill the arcstarter)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:21:13 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31474.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

It was written:

>>Using PWM control is better yet, as it does NOT reduce the peak
>>voltage/torque at all - it just modulates it. PWM control on a DC 
>>type motor reduces speed without APPRECIABLY reducing torque.
>
>To claim that there is not enough inductance in the motor windings to
>smooth out the highs and lows of the PWM voltage notches is living in
>dreamland or a sign of having ingested too much egg-nog!!

Actually you can (and will) instantaneously change the voltage across an 
inductor (motor winding) w/o an instantaneous change in the current.  
Nothing in physics says otherwise.

I suppose the question is one of *what* damages the motor - rapid force 
oscillations (caused by rapid changes in current - something which is 
limited/prevented by the self-inductance of the windings) or some form 
of (?) dielectric breakdown across the windings caused by rapid voltage 
fluctuations... ?

The big boys do use specially insulated magnet wire on the larger (1-10 
hp) motors designed specifically for use with chopper drives.  I'm not 
sure if a smaller motor (like a fuel pump) would care one way or the 
other.

If you build such a chopper - be sure to include a flyback or snubber 
circuit to prevent your fet/transistor from going POOF due to the 
inductive kickback. :-)

-Bill
(building a 10000 watt phase controlled SCR driver for my stick welder)
Wanna know how to turn OFF an SCR?  See my page:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6160/hvtank/hvtank.html


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From Dodge1979 at webtv.net  Sun Jan  3 01:22:08 1999
From: Dodge1979 at webtv.net (Roger Anderson)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:22:08 -0500
Subject: corvairs?????
Message-ID: <mailman.31475.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Anbody know of someone who might have adapted an efi system for a
corvair engine?
rog

bucks, we just ran out of time...



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sun Jan  3 01:27:50 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:27:50 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31476.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> >At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Hence, the proper answer of PWM.
> >
> >Exactly!
> >The pump still sees full voltage, it just has it for a limited time!
> 
> C'mon--the PWM switch LOWERS the AVERAGE voltage by switching teh FULL
> voltage on and off rapidly. As I said, you want good smoothing of the
> output, cuz the rapid pulsing IS what will dissassemble the windings!
> 
> Regards, Greg
> >
> >===========================================================
> >           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
> >     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
> >       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
> >===========================================================
DC motors designed for PWM control are of the "universal" variety, with
laminated cores - capable of running on AC as well as DC - or permanent
magnet field with laminated armatures. Yes, the inductance DOES tend to
smooth out the peaks - but try running two identical motors at the same
reduced "average" voltage - one with a pwm and one with a resistor. You
know what you will find. Right, the PWM controlled motor will have
significantly more torque, assuming the pwm controller is properly built
and designed. Just try out an electronic controlled variable speed drill
vs a resistance controlled variable speed drill.


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sun Jan  3 01:29:18 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:29:18 -0500
Subject: Power ground
Message-ID: <mailman.31477.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Jim Davies wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Clarence L.Snyder wrote:
> 
> > > Anyone have time to explain the difference between 'ground' and
> > > 'powerground'?
> > > TIA
> > > Geoff
> > I'll give it a crack.
> > In a DC power system on a car, the negative(usually) terminal uses a
> > "chassis ground" for power "return".This is your "power ground". It can
> > have a voltage drop of up to .1 volt across it for accessory and
> > charging loads, and up to one volt for starter loads.
> > For signal circuits, such as sensors, sometimes the .1 volt drop across
> > the frame ground could cause calibration errors, so a "signal ground" is
> > provided. Sometimes the signal can even "float" above chassis ground, as
> > through a protection diode with a, say, .6 volt forward voltage drop.
> > Can't use chassis ground return for such a signal.
> > Hope this helps understand it.
> >
> 
> So in other words, high amperage and low amperage devices should have
> seperate ground paths to the battery??
Not necessarily:
but devices that are VOLTAGE SENSITIVE, particularly at low voltages,
should have their own ground circuit.


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan  3 01:44:50 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:44:50 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31478.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill the arcstarter <arcstarter at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Voltage regulator

Looks like the beginning for a good ignition set-up, cordin to Doc.
Bruce


snip
>
>-Bill
>(building a 10000 watt phase controlled SCR driver for my stick welder)
>Wanna know how to turn OFF an SCR?  See my page:
>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6160/hvtank/hvtank.html
>
>




From ChvyRs92 at aol.com  Sun Jan  3 01:57:44 1999
From: ChvyRs92 at aol.com (ChvyRs92 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 20:57:44 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31479.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Jerry,
Thanks. Let me know the name of the book when you find out. So you are from
Ca. too?
Jeff


From arcstarter at hotmail.com  Sun Jan  3 02:36:25 1999
From: arcstarter at hotmail.com (Bill the arcstarter)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 21:36:25 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31480.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Frederic Breitwieser wrote:

>>Sounds like an A-833 trans.  Ever had one apart?  Mine needs 
>>synchros... 
>
>Nope, just had the top cover off and peered inside, and can visually 
>see the bent forks.  its that bad.  but, it shifts, and hopefully its
>repairable without too much effort.  If the forks/syncro's are not
>available, which they should be considering how many years this 
>tranny was available, I might go syncro-less.  Though it is a truck, 
>not a race car.

Any chance you just need forks?  The forks can be replaced w/o pulling 
the trans apart!

>I've found that to be with Chryslers in general.  I've found ZERO 
>dodge trucks in the five or six junkyards that I frequent - and on a 
>trip to Raleigh in the beginning of the month I found a few and 
>scavanaged parts I needed - like the brake cables for the parking 
>brake.

Yea, same here.  I got my bellhousing from Binghamton, NY and I live in 
Ohio.  The yards around here had ZERO and the best they could do was get 
one via locator for $250!  Robbery!  I ended up paying $60 for the one 
from NY.  I consider myself lucky at that price.

Apparently there are yards in the New England area with loads of 
moparts...

-Bill

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From arcstarter at hotmail.com  Sun Jan  3 02:42:12 1999
From: arcstarter at hotmail.com (Bill the arcstarter)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 21:42:12 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31481.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Peter Fenske wrote:

>Trannys cont.
>
>Had a 833 apart when young. Did  manage to get it back together
>
>The trick was to fab a dummy shaft so to fit the counter shaft into 
>the case. The dummy shaft needs to be a few thou less in dia
>so it will slip out the back whilst you put in the shaft from the 
>front.

Yea, thats what the guys down at the shop suggested.  One guy had a 
piece of (!) broomhandle which he claimed was workable in a bind...

>Mucho better than trying to use grease to put in the counter
>shaft bearings. The darn things always fall out

One guy used floorwax to retain the needles.  To each his own.

>Oh yes Mopar Perf has a special pilot bushing just for auto.
>No machining needed.

Oh?  I was told the auto-only motors had no hole at all - ie - the pilot 
journal on the input shaft would hit the end of the crank where the hole 
should be.

But I could be wrong on this.  I haven't seen an auto-only crank.  The 
one I pulled off of an auto had the proper pilot hole.  A bit of 
de-rusting, a new pilot bushing and all was well.

-Bill

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From KD6JDJ at aol.com  Sun Jan  3 03:10:09 1999
From: KD6JDJ at aol.com (KD6JDJ at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:10:09 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31482.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  Jeff Jeff JEFF
  The Chev - late model engine - swapping book is titled  Chevrolet TPI & TBI
Engine Swapping . I bought mine from Steve Smith at hit office in the city of
Orange.
  I just recently loaned mine to a young friend who is thinking of swapping.
  I live in Los Alamitos Ca ( near Long Beach ) . My travels take me to many
parts of LA.
If you have any interest (and patience) , I may drop it off for youto see
within a month , if you are in the L A area.

    Jerry


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan  3 03:34:14 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:34:14 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31483.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>
>It's good to know shunt/ series motor theory.  Though it's full effect is lost
>on the original app discussed ( running a OEM fuel pump at a < or > voltage)
>Most if not all OEM intank or external pumps are permanent magnet style.  The
>Holley Blue or Red pump may have field coils as well as some other aftermarket
>pumps.
>
>As for running a pump at reduced voltage.  The ~85 Merkur XR4Ti 2.3 Turbo (
>same engine as a SVO Mustang) uses a resistor wire simillar to a ignition
>resistor.  The ~ 86 Reanult Alliance ( ala American Motors) used a regular
>ingition ballast resistor in series with the pump.
>
>I seem to remember some make of car using a resistor to reduce pump noise as
>low throttle openings. Then bypassing the resistor near WOT to insure adequate
>fuel flow.
>
>I think late model Chryslers use a variable (most likely PWM ) fuel pump on
>their single line EFI systems.  They have eliminated the return line on some
>engines.
>

Ahem--well, a motor with a PM field has a rather constant level of
excitation, so it seems pretty safe to say that it would act pretty much
like a shunt wound motor--speed will vary with voltage, and torque will
vary with current. Your examples prove the point that low voltage will not
hurt them. Setting fuel pressure too high will, because it would require
enough torque (current) to cause meltdown.

Regards, Greg

>Harold




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan  3 03:54:59 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:54:59 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31484.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Greg Hermann wrote:
>>
>> >At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Hence, the proper answer of PWM.
>> >
>> >Exactly!
>> >The pump still sees full voltage, it just has it for a limited time!
>>
>> C'mon--the PWM switch LOWERS the AVERAGE voltage by switching teh FULL
>> voltage on and off rapidly. As I said, you want good smoothing of the
>> output, cuz the rapid pulsing IS what will dissassemble the windings!
>>
>> Regards, Greg
>> >
>> >===========================================================
>> >           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>> >     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>> >       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>> >===========================================================
>DC motors designed for PWM control are of the "universal" variety, with
>laminated cores - capable of running on AC as well as DC - or permanent
>magnet field with laminated armatures. Yes, the inductance DOES tend to
>smooth out the peaks - but try running two identical motors at the same
>reduced "average" voltage - one with a pwm and one with a resistor. You
>know what you will find. Right, the PWM controlled motor will have
>significantly more torque, assuming the pwm controller is properly built
>and designed. Just try out an electronic controlled variable speed drill
>vs a resistance controlled variable speed drill.

OK--voltage relates to speed--current relates to torque. same as a shunt
wound DC motor. The PWM reduces the (average) voltage, but does not limit
the (average) current the way a resistor does. The picture is now coming
into focus a bit clearer! I still say a smoothing filter on the motor lead
side of the PWM switching device is very good for the motor. Likewise, a
filter upstream of the PWM switching device is good for everything else in
the neighborhood. (Like digital devices of one sort or another!) :-)

A couple of loops of power and motor, and even control leads around
(separate) ferrite cores is also not a bad idea, if you want to get serious
about reducing the noise.

Greg




From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sun Jan  3 04:24:34 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:24:34 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31485.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Without knowing the details of your vehicle, I can't be sure what would
>fit.  I was thinking along the lines of a standard front

Its a mid-engined chassis from scratch engine behind drivers, in front of
axle, using the FWD audi transaxle (for now). THe porsche G50-50 unit is
identical in regards to axle height/distance from bellhousing, though
weights 4 lbs more.

>rear driveshaft, but that won't cause much trouble if you going with
>four-wheel independant suspension.

Vette IRS in the front, and custom in the back, IRS 4-link, much like the
original GT-40 hopefully with better math associated with it :)


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sun Jan  3 04:29:46 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:29:46 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31486.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Oh?  I was told the auto-only motors had no hole at all - ie - the pilot 
>journal on the input shaft would hit the end of the crank where the hole 
>should be.

This is true, nothing a 3/4 bit on a milling machine can't fix :)  Just
that centering it will be a challenge.  I haven't found out how deep it
needs to be, but maybe I can measure this off the length of the input shaft
once I get the tranny out.  I'd really like to shove in a 6-speed or a
5-speed.  4000 RPM at 70 MPH is a bit much.


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sun Jan  3 04:29:58 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:29:58 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31487.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Any chance you just need forks?  The forks can be replaced w/o pulling 
>the trans apart!

Not sure, I haven't ripped it out yet.  Hoping that's the case.

>Yea, same here.  I got my bellhousing from Binghamton, NY and I live in 
>Ohio.  The yards around here had ZERO and the best they could do was get 

Really?  I haven't found dodge anything up here.  THough I now have a
bellhousing that my transmission supposively will fit into.  We'll find out
for sure when the engine is yanked out.

I will be EFI-ing this engine, and probably going one large turbo, or two
small turbos.  I've learned a lot from my radical V6 experimentation, and
will be duplicating some of the lessons learned on this 383 B block.  Just
had it overbored .030, linebored, and its in great, great shape.

>Apparently there are yards in the New England area with loads of 
>moparts...

Really?  I haven't found one yet.  Everyone here in CT squish dodges faster
than they can get them in !!!!!


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From ChvyRs92 at aol.com  Sun Jan  3 04:40:04 1999
From: ChvyRs92 at aol.com (ChvyRs92 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:40:04 -0500
Subject: Engine book
Message-ID: <mailman.31488.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Jerry, 
	I work in Pacoima Ca., but I don't want to make you waste your time driving
to loan a book to a stranger. If you think the book is worth it I will order
it from a catalogue so I can have a copy of it for my small, but growing
library of car stuff. I am currently waiting for a couple of books I ordered
from Summit Racing. One of them is from JTR (Jaguars That Run) I guess they
specialize in that sort of thing too. I appreciate the offer though (and if I
can't find one I might take you up on it after all).
Jeff


From mpilkent at ptw.com  Sun Jan  3 04:46:20 1999
From: mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:46:20 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31489.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Jeff, is this you?  Welcome to the efi list.

Mike Pilkenton

-----Original Message-----
From: ChvyRs92 at aol.com <ChvyRs92 at aol.com>
To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 02, 1999 3:24 PM
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1


>I have a 92 Camaro that had a v-6 in it, I recently purchased a 92 Corvette
>LT-1 motor with both computers (the ECM, and the CCM ). My big problem is
>figuring out how to wire the new motor. I know of a few aftermarket
companies
>that sell wiring harnesses, but they are pretty expensive and I don't know
if
>I really need them because I have the stock Corvette harness. I am also
>curious if I need to disable the VATS or can I wire it up to the module
>currently in my 92 Camaro? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>



From mpilkent at ptw.com  Sun Jan  3 04:56:12 1999
From: mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:56:12 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31490.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

All this talk on fuel pumps brings up a question I have had.  Where can I
find an aftermarket fuel pump for FI.  All the ones I have seen are for
carb. engines.  I need one that puts out about 50 psi for the 3.1L V6 motor
and can be mounted outside the tank.

Mike
(3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion)




From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Sun Jan  3 05:35:19 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:35:19 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31491.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  Following this thread with great interest!  What is PWM??

At 08:27 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Greg Hermann wrote:
>> 
>> >At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Hence, the proper answer of PWM.



From geoffsue at one.net.au  Sun Jan  3 05:40:48 1999
From: geoffsue at one.net.au (Geoff Richards)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:40:48 -0500
Subject: GM V6
Message-ID: <mailman.31492.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Am interested in info on 3.8l V6 as fitted to Holden vehicles (Aus)
I believe they are Buick engines but do not understand the 
relationship between them and GM.
Would someone be able to enlighten me to this and what other
vehicles used this engine in the States so when reading different posts
I can understand a little better :-)
What is the GN type site referred to as read on this list?
If this is what I am lookin' for could I have the address please
Thanks
Geoff



From ARoss10661 at aol.com  Sun Jan  3 06:00:41 1999
From: ARoss10661 at aol.com (ARoss10661 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 01:00:41 -0500
Subject: GM V6
Message-ID: <mailman.31493.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 99-01-03 00:46:41 EST, you write:

<< Am interested in info on 3.8l V6 as fitted to Holden vehicles (Aus)
 I believe they are Buick engines but do not understand the 
 relationship between them and GM.
 Would someone be able to enlighten me to this and what other
 vehicles used this engine in the States so when reading different posts
 I can understand a little better :-)
 What is the GN type site referred to as read on this list?
 If this is what I am lookin' for could I have the address please
 Thanks
 Geoff >>


Buick 3.8 liter engines have the same bolt patterns as Oldsmobiles and
Pontiacs.  Chevy's had a diffrent bolt pattern.  GM in its infinite wisdom
couldnt consolidate things enough to make life simple.  The GN engines are
turbocharged engines found in upscale Buick regals.  Hope this tidbit of info
helps
Al


From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com  Sun Jan  3 08:14:36 1999
From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 03:14:36 -0500
Subject: corvairs?????
Message-ID: <mailman.31494.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Roger Anderson wrote:

> Anbody know of someone who might have adapted an efi system for a
> corvair engine?
> rog
>
> bucks, we just ran out of time...

Er, check some 'Vair pages on the web...I've seen one that was turbo'd,
intercooled etc.
If you want to go big money, try TWM - they have throttle bodies in the
Weber IDA-3 pattern.
Porsche Bosch componentry might also be available slightly cheaper(?) if
you can find used.

Good Luck!

Aaron



From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com  Sun Jan  3 08:56:15 1999
From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 03:56:15 -0500
Subject: GM V6
Message-ID: <mailman.31495.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Geoff Richards wrote:

> Am interested in info on 3.8l V6 as fitted to Holden vehicles (Aus) I
> believe they are Buick engines but do not understand the relationship
> between them and GM.

Geoff,
   GM is the parent company, and Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac,
Oldsmobile, and GMC Truck are their divisions.  Oh, and so is Saturn -
almost forgot them. Mostly they just build the same basic cars in different
styles for various target consumer groups, and have since before WWII.
   Back in the early '70s GM started allowing the different divisions to
trade engines back and forth so that the Olds you got might have a Chevy V8
or a Buick V6 in it...or your Pontiac Trans Am might have a 403 Olds...it
can get pretty confusing, but basically the Buick V6 has been around since
the early '60s and is a child of the aluminum Buick 215 cum Rover 3.5 V8.
It has been sold in Jeeps, passenger cars in probably all of GM's
divisions, etc. The turbo versions are available in Buick Regals (of which
a Grand National is one), primarily, with a few going into GMC
Syclone/Typhoon trucklets (would that make them utelets to you? :-) and
Anniversary Edition Trans Ams. There are probably others that got the
turbo.
   Engine is still produced, I believe, and is available in supercharged
form in the Pontiac Grand Prix.

Now will you please explain Australia's muscle car era to me?

Aaron



From soren at rio.com  Sun Jan  3 09:09:22 1999
From: soren at rio.com (soren)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 04:09:22 -0500
Subject: GM V6
Message-ID: <mailman.31496.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

><< Am interested in info on 3.8l V6 as fitted to Holden vehicles (Aus)
> I believe they are Buick engines but do not understand the
> relationship between them and GM.
> Would someone be able to enlighten me to this and what other
> vehicles used this engine in the States so when reading different posts
> I can understand a little better :-)
> What is the GN type site referred to as read on this list?
> If this is what I am lookin' for could I have the address please
> Thanks
> Geoff >>
>Buick 3.8 liter engines have the same bolt patterns as Oldsmobiles and
>Pontiacs.  Chevy's had a diffrent bolt pattern.  GM in its infinite wisdom
>couldnt consolidate things enough to make life simple.  The GN engines are
>turbocharged engines found in upscale Buick regals.  Hope this tidbit of
info
>helps
>Al

    From my experience with Buick engines and minimal research on Holden
vehicles, I believe that the Holden 3800 is fairly similar to the GM series
II 3800.  I have found that the naturally aspirated Holden 3800 actualy puts
out about the same stock HP as the supercharged SII 3800.  It is found in
various modern (1996 and up) Buick vehicles including the Regal, Riviera and
Park Avenue, as well as the Pontiac Grand Prix. The older (1980s) Buick
Grand National had a 3800 but it was in a rear-wheel drive setup and had
different electronics and was, of course, turbo'd.

Soren Rounds




From scirocco at mail.bip.net  Sun Jan  3 11:39:33 1999
From: scirocco at mail.bip.net (Roland Johansson)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 06:39:33 -0500
Subject: SV: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31497.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

First it didn't show up in my mind but when thinking of this
idea a drawback appeared to me. All the welding helmets I been
looking thruu (two) are having a big green filter, looks like
that might be a problem. But why not have a LCD showing the
plate number and turning it off when a flash appear?
Hm, have to go to my fathers house and make a close examination
of his helmet in the evening



Roland Johansson
Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82
> >I like your idea of an LCD screen similar to the expensive
welding hoods. The
> >opaquing action would not have to outrun the light, only go
dark before the
> >camera lens had collected sufficient light. Anybody know the
shutter speed
> >used?
> 
> There are two sources of light used to expose the film. First
is the flash
> from the speed camera, the second is the ambient light hanging
around. The
> shutter speed is likely to be around 1/125 to 1/250 of a
second, certainly no
> faster than 1/500. Camera flahes have very short durations. I
don't know how
> quickly the light builds up from the flash, but any trigger
circuit would need
> to detect the flash building up and get the LCD opaque before
enough light had
> arived.
> 
> The effect of the ambient light would be interesting, since
this light is
> always there, and the flash is triggered somewhere in the
middle of the
> exposure. The shutter opens fully, then the flash fires, and
the shutter
> closes. Depending on the power of the flash and the distance
from the camera
> to the car, ambient light would probably have no real effect
on the image.
> 
> --
> Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
>            - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/



From tparker at nznet.gen.nz  Sun Jan  3 12:33:31 1999
From: tparker at nznet.gen.nz (Tom Parker)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 07:33:31 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31498.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net> wrote:

>>At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Hence, the proper answer of PWM.
>>
>>Exactly!
>>The pump still sees full voltage, it just has it for a limited time!

>C'mon--the PWM switch LOWERS the AVERAGE voltage by switching teh FULL
>voltage on and off rapidly. As I said, you want good smoothing of the
>output, cuz the rapid pulsing IS what will dissassemble the windings!

Won't the smoothing system turn it into a lower constant voltage? If you have
enough capacatance across it, it will just average out the pulses.

Or do you mean not this much smoothing, but enough to take the sharp edges of
the transitions between on and off?


--
Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/



From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan  3 15:08:29 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:08:29 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31499.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence Wood <clarencewood at centuryinter.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: Voltage regulator

Pulse Width Modulation.  On time measured as a %.  Depending on application
the frquency can be taylored to application.  So you wind up picking a
frequency
of how fast, and how long to apply power.
Bruce


>  Following this thread with great interest!  What is PWM??
>
>At 08:27 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Greg Hermann wrote:
>>>
>>> >At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>Hence, the proper answer of PWM.
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan  3 15:19:05 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:19:05 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31500.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pilkenton <mpilkent at ptw.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: fuel pumps

A/C Delco, has a book that shows all their pumps vital specs., and what they
look like.  Remember when doing an intank, that means a tank R+R for any
pump work.  Personally while not as silent, I like a big dumb noisy one I
can
fix with out a hoist, and 2 friends.  Twice I've wound up changing pump
brushes on the side of the road (less than 20 mins)..  I also carry a spare
ignition module,
cap rotor some long plug wires, fuel filter  and only once been towed home,
in
many years/miles of driving.
Bruce


>All this talk on fuel pumps brings up a question I have had.  Where can I
>find an aftermarket fuel pump for FI.  All the ones I have seen are for
>carb. engines.  I need one that puts out about 50 psi for the 3.1L V6 motor
>and can be mounted outside the tank.
>
>Mike
>(3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion)
>
>



From KD6JDJ at aol.com  Sun Jan  3 15:38:09 1999
From: KD6JDJ at aol.com (KD6JDJ at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:38:09 -0500
Subject: Engine book
Message-ID: <mailman.31501.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  Jeff

  I think that you will like the 'late model Chevy' engine transplant book. I
dont get up as far as Pacoima very often anyway. Still, my original offer
stands.
  Just in case you get more interested -- The book is # S 195
                  They show their Web address:WWW.ssapubl.com
                                                           714 639 7681

   Jerry


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan  3 16:01:54 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:01:54 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31502.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>  Following this thread with great interest!  What is PWM??
>
>At 08:27 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Greg Hermann wrote:
>>>
>>> >At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>Hence, the proper answer of PWM.

Pulse Width Modulation--rapid on/off switching --the % of time on
determines the average % of supply voltage delivered.

Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan  3 16:06:03 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:06:03 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31503.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net> wrote:
>
>>>At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hence, the proper answer of PWM.
>>>
>>>Exactly!
>>>The pump still sees full voltage, it just has it for a limited time!
>
>>C'mon--the PWM switch LOWERS the AVERAGE voltage by switching teh FULL
>>voltage on and off rapidly. As I said, you want good smoothing of the
>>output, cuz the rapid pulsing IS what will dissassemble the windings!
>
>Won't the smoothing system turn it into a lower constant voltage? If you have
>enough capacatance across it, it will just average out the pulses.
>
>Or do you mean not this much smoothing, but enough to take the sharp edges of
>the transitions between on and off?

As far as I am concerned, the smoother the better!

Greg
>
>
>--
>Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
>           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/




From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Sun Jan  3 16:07:12 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:07:12 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31504.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

JEG'S 1-800-345-4545

At 08:52 PM 1/2/99 -0800, you wrote:
>All this talk on fuel pumps brings up a question I have had.  Where can I
>find an aftermarket fuel pump for FI.  All the ones I have seen are for
>carb. engines.  I need one that puts out about 50 psi for the 3.1L V6 motor
>and can be mounted outside the tank.
>
>Mike
>(3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion)
>
>
>


From Galadar at worldnet.att.net  Sun Jan  3 16:45:18 1999
From: Galadar at worldnet.att.net (Jon Fedock)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:45:18 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31505.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

BMW, Ford (some), and VW/Audi all use external high pressure pumps. I am
using one from a VW on my TPI Trans Am with no starvation problems. YMMV

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pilkenton <mpilkent at ptw.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: fuel pumps


>All this talk on fuel pumps brings up a question I have had.  Where can I
>find an aftermarket fuel pump for FI.  All the ones I have seen are for
>carb. engines.  I need one that puts out about 50 psi for the 3.1L V6 motor
>and can be mounted outside the tank.
>
>Mike
>(3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion)
>
>
>



From Dodge1979 at webtv.net  Sun Jan  3 16:56:38 1999
From: Dodge1979 at webtv.net (Roger Anderson)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:56:38 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Re: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31506.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


--WebTV-Mail-298361717-268
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

Bosch offers several efi fuel pumps-


--WebTV-Mail-298361717-268
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Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 10:02:48 -0600
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
From: Clarence Wood <clarencewood at centuryinter.net>
Subject: Re: fuel pumps
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JEG'S 1-800-345-4545

At 08:52 PM 1/2/99 -0800, you wrote:
>All this talk on fuel pumps brings up a question I have had.  Where can I
>find an aftermarket fuel pump for FI.  All the ones I have seen are for
>carb. engines.  I need one that puts out about 50 psi for the 3.1L V6 motor
>and can be mounted outside the tank.
>
>Mike
>(3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion)
>
>
>

--WebTV-Mail-298361717-268--


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan  3 17:08:59 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:08:59 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31507.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>JEG'S 1-800-345-4545
>
>At 08:52 PM 1/2/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>All this talk on fuel pumps brings up a question I have had.  Where can I
>>find an aftermarket fuel pump for FI.  All the ones I have seen are for
>>carb. engines.  I need one that puts out about 50 psi for the 3.1L V6 motor
>>and can be mounted outside the tank.
>>
>>Mike
>>(3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion)
>>
>>
>Kinsler Fuel Injection, Troy,  Michigan, (248) 362-1145 stocks a wide
>variety of them.

Greg >




From rwhughe at hal-pc.org  Sun Jan  3 17:57:59 1999
From: rwhughe at hal-pc.org (Robert W. Hughes)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:57:59 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31508.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>  In my opinion I think it would be best to get the GM service manuals for
> both vehicles so you have an accurate schematic for both wiring
> harness'....then start cutting......

If this idea appeals to you check out Alldata on the web.
(http://www.alldata.com/) They offer a CD with service information
mostly derived from the Helms manuals and one disc with coverage of two
cars would cost about $50 as opposed to $80-$120 each for the Helms.
They also have the advantage of being able to print pages of the
drawings which you can then mark up without destroying your expensive
manuals.
-- 
Robert W. Hughes (Bob)
BackYard Engineering
Houston, Texas
rwhughe at hal-pc.org


From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Sun Jan  3 18:04:07 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:04:07 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31509.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/2/99 9:49:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, mpilkent at ptw.com
writes:

<< All this talk on fuel pumps brings up a question I have had.  Where can I
 find an aftermarket fuel pump for FI.  All the ones I have seen are for
 carb. engines.  I need one that puts out about 50 psi for the 3.1L V6 motor
 and can be mounted outside the tank.
 
 Mike
 (3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion) >>

I was at The NBAA (business jets and such) convention and talked to some
people from Weldon Pump. They make some used on both normally aspirated and
injected motors. They have a Motorsports Calogue, and have a number of big
name racers running them.  How about 180 gph at 100 psi? Very nice people to
talk with. I talked with one of the engineers and he was saying that the big
guys were running up around 200 psi for some of the efi racing systems. It was
about a year and a half ago, but they are a big name in Aviation and other
pumps. Rebuildable too. Hope the Area Codes are still good. But the address
should be good. Might be a group buy situation in the making. 
My contact was  

Robert F. Milar
Special Accounts Manager
po box 46479
640 Golden Parkway
Oakwood Village, Ohio 44146
Tel 904-797-7787
Fax 904-797-0205

Good luck, I had a 383 Opel Kadett years ago.
Fred Harmon
Fred Harmon Precision Machining.


From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Sun Jan  3 18:18:06 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:18:06 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31510.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/2/99 10:16:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
clarencewood at centuryinter.net writes:

<< Following this thread with great interest!  What is PWM?? >>

PMW is Pulse Width Modulation. In motor control it is fantastic. It is used
for controlling speed and torque on motors. It is the backbone of the
machining industry. We have motors with encoders that control the velocity of
the tables on milling machines at exact speed to acurracies of 0.0001 inch or
less and can achieve velocities from 0 to over 1000 inches a minute without
losing position. Computer control allows three or more to be used to contour
with accuracies stated before. All this with constantly varying load for the
cut and the weight of the parts. Also used in printers and plotters.
it is an on/off switch of the power at a constant (usually) voltage kind of
like if you using a thermostat to keep a constant temperature in your house.
Just a thermostat for speed or in this case, pressure. Simple idea but the
control can be fantastic in use. Has anyone started on a pressure switch
controlled PMW drive. I would love to play with it. Maybe even machine some
parts if need be.

Fred Harmon
Fred Harmon Precision Machining


From steve.ravet at arm.com  Sun Jan  3 20:06:49 1999
From: steve.ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:06:49 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31511.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I know you're not supposed to followup your own posts, but I forgot to
mention a couple things:

For sure you'll want the schematics for both cars.  I'd recommend buying
both factory service manuals from Helm.  Expensive, but not much
compared with what you've already got in it (and what's left to
spend...)  I have an Alldata CD and personally I'm not impressed.  If I
were doing it again I'd put the money towards a Helm manual.  Other
people like the Alldata CD, though.

Also, you may want to look at the TPI/TBI engine swapping manual from
Jags that run (www.jagsthatrun.com)  It's aimed at putting EFI engines
into older non-EFI cars but it has some good words on wiring.

Some good advice that the JTR book had was make the engine think it's in
the original car as much as possible.  That means using all the
accessories and sensors from the original car (even things like the
charcoal cannister).  That reduces the amount of hacking you have to do
on the harness.

Sit down with both schematics and figure out all the wiring in advance. 
I typed it all into a spreadsheet.  Then take it outside and start
cutting.

--steve

> > I have a 92 Camaro that had a v-6 in it, I recently purchased a 92 Corvette
> > LT-1 motor with both computers (the ECM, and the CCM ). My big problem is
> > figuring out how to wire the new motor. I know of a few aftermarket companies
> > that sell wiring harnesses, but they are pretty expensive and I don't know if
> > I really need them because I have the stock Corvette harness. I am also
> > curious if I need to disable the VATS or can I wire it up to the module
> > currently in my 92 Camaro? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

--
Steve Ravet
sravet at arm.com
Advanced Risc Machines, INC
www.arm.com


From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com  Sun Jan  3 20:18:40 1999
From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:18:40 -0500
Subject: corvairs?????
Message-ID: <mailman.31512.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

funny you mention this, I am thinking of buying a 67' corvair and I was
thinking about this.
there are the tube manifold adapters that would allow you to run a tbi
system. otherwise you might need the '140 hp heads and then you might be
able to drill holes for injectors.

Clark's sells 140 heads as well as I think corvair underground.


I would think a gm v-6 system would do the trick. something of the same or
slightly larger displacement.

Ted.

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Willis [mailto:darkmonahue at awwwsome.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 1999 12:11 AM
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: corvairs?????




Roger Anderson wrote:

> Anbody know of someone who might have adapted an efi system for a
> corvair engine?
> rog
>
> bucks, we just ran out of time...

Er, check some 'Vair pages on the web...I've seen one that was turbo'd,
intercooled etc.
If you want to go big money, try TWM - they have throttle bodies in the
Weber IDA-3 pattern.
Porsche Bosch componentry might also be available slightly cheaper(?) if
you can find used.

Good Luck!

Aaron


From steve.ravet at arm.com  Sun Jan  3 20:25:49 1999
From: steve.ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:25:49 -0500
Subject: PICs and X-10
Message-ID: <mailman.31513.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is way off topic so if you can help me please reply privately.  I'm
helping my brother-in-law with a project using PIC microcontrollers
along with X-10 home automation stuff.  Specifically I want to use a PIC
to control a TW523 interface module.  I know there are PIC experts and
probably X-10 experts here, if you're one please get back to me. 
Thanks,

--steve

--
Steve Ravet
sravet at arm.com
Advanced Risc Machines, INC
www.arm.com


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Sun Jan  3 21:12:53 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:12:53 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31514.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Sat, 02 Jan 1999 17:20:40 PST "Bill the arcstarter"
<arcstarter at hotmail.com> writes:
>It was written:
>
>>>Using PWM control is better yet, as it does NOT reduce the peak
>>>voltage/torque at all - it just modulates it. PWM control on a DC 
>>>type motor reduces speed without APPRECIABLY reducing torque.
>>
>>To claim that there is not enough inductance in the motor windings to
>>smooth out the highs and lows of the PWM voltage notches is living in
>>dreamland or a sign of having ingested too much egg-nog!!
>
>Actually you can (and will) instantaneously change the voltage across an

>inductor (motor winding) w/o an instantaneous change in the current.  
>Nothing in physics says otherwise.
>
>I suppose the question is one of *what* damages the motor - rapid force 
>oscillations (caused by rapid changes in current - something which is 
>limited/prevented by the self-inductance of the windings) or some form 
>of (?) dielectric breakdown across the windings caused by rapid voltage 
>fluctuations... ?
>
>The big boys do use specially insulated magnet wire on the larger (1-10 
>hp) motors designed specifically for use with chopper drives.  I'm not 
>sure if a smaller motor (like a fuel pump) would care one way or the
other.
>
>If you build such a chopper - be sure to include a flyback or snubber 
>circuit to prevent your fet/transistor from going POOF due to the 
>inductive kickback. :-)
>
>-Bill
>(building a 10000 watt phase controlled SCR driver for my stick 
>welder)
>Wanna know how to turn OFF an SCR?  See my page:
>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/6160/hvtank/hvtank.html

I would take a lesson from the switching regulater designs.  Put a diode
across the source that'll be reverse biased when the "chopper" transister
is on.  When the transister turns off, the energy stored in the inductor
would forward bias the diode.  That way, the current will decay more
slowly and not produce the inductive "kick".

Also, I would use a high frequency.  That way, the current wouldn't decay
much when the transister is turned off.  This would reduce the amplitude
of the mechanical vibrations.

Ray Drouillard

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From orin at wolfenet.com  Sun Jan  3 21:14:17 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:14:17 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31515.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> BMW, Ford (some), and VW/Audi all use external high pressure pumps. I am
> using one from a VW on my TPI Trans Am with no starvation problems. YMMV

Only some Audi.  The 5000/200 series use an in-tank pump (it _can_
be R&R'd from the trunk tho').

Orin.


From israels at MNSi.Net  Sun Jan  3 21:44:16 1999
From: israels at MNSi.Net (todd israels)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:44:16 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31516.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 01:17 PM 1/3/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 1/2/99 10:16:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>clarencewood at centuryinter.net writes:
>
><< Following this thread with great interest!  What is PWM?? >>
>
>PMW is Pulse Width Modulation. In motor control it is fantastic. It is used
>for controlling speed and torque on motors. It is the backbone of the
>machining industry. We have motors with encoders that control the velocity of
>the tables on milling machines at exact speed to acurracies of 0.0001 inch or
>less and can achieve velocities from 0 to over 1000 inches a minute without
>losing position. Computer control allows three or more to be used to contour
>with accuracies stated before. All this with constantly varying load for the
>cut and the weight of the parts. Also used in printers and plotters.
>it is an on/off switch of the power at a constant (usually) voltage kind of
>like if you using a thermostat to keep a constant temperature in your house.
>Just a thermostat for speed or in this case, pressure. Simple idea but the
>control can be fantastic in use. Has anyone started on a pressure switch
>controlled PMW drive. I would love to play with it. Maybe even machine some
>parts if need be.
>
>Fred Harmon
>Fred Harmon Precision Machining
>
>
	I have also been following this thread.  Yes PWM is a great way to control
a motor, especialy if accuracy in speed or position is required.  This
would be of great advantage if the return line to the tank can be
eliminated by using PWM and a presure sensor.  
	There was a control modual mentioned that droped 2.4 volt at low throtel
openings and could be made very simply with 3 or 4 rectifier diodes in
series and a NC (so failure wont cause fule starvation) relay contact.
Energize relay at low throtel openings.  To activate use a microcontroler
or a simple opamp 1:1 for isolation and low load and a second opamp as a
comparitor to trigger.  
	On an unEFI note Fred do you have a simple motor speed controler that has
PWM output and +10,-10 volt signal input?  This is for personel
experimentation with a Galil Motion card(scraped due to bad axis) and cheap
DC motors and surplus encoders.  Simple and cheap are the main objectives,
to leave more resources availabe for program development.  

				Todd Israels
 




From israels at MNSi.Net  Sun Jan  3 21:51:53 1999
From: israels at MNSi.Net (todd israels)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:51:53 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31517.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

	Did Dodge not use EFI on late 80's pickups and cant that be put on an
older engige or swap entire engine?  I dont know Dodge maybe you do have to
reinvent the wheel.  If you have room to the front of the engine you can
swap in a Viper engine?(yes I know VERY $$ and hard to find at least in
Ontario Canada)



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan  3 22:14:03 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 17:14:03 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31518.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 04:56 PM 1/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>	Did Dodge not use EFI on late 80's pickups and cant that be put on an
>older engige or swap entire engine?  I dont know Dodge maybe you do have to
>reinvent the wheel.  If you have room to the front of the engine you can
>swap in a Viper engine?(yes I know VERY $$ and hard to find at least in
>Ontario Canada)
>

The problem with Chrysler EFI is the computers are potted and sealed... No
chip to replace... Makes it kind of hot-rodder or custom unfriendly.
Not sure if the 383 was ever injected though... (or what, if any, EFI parts
would swap from a 360 or 318)

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From israels at MNSi.Net  Sun Jan  3 22:19:16 1999
From: israels at MNSi.Net (todd israels)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 17:19:16 -0500
Subject: Chemical warfare
Message-ID: <mailman.31519.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 12:12 PM 12/31/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 10:40 AM 12/31/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>  The FBI has set up a system where they scan all, I repeat, ALL, e-mail 
>>messages looking for *key words*.  When their system finds one of the key 
>>words they begin an investigation of the individual who sent the e-mail, as 
>>well as those who received the mail.  As an aside note: when the *hackers* 
>>found out about this, they liberated the key word list from the FBI and 
>>flooded the net with messages that contained one or more of the key words.
>
>Actually, the FBI has better things to do with their time.

>
>As for EFI content, I now have a 68HC11EVB sitting here...  any suggestions
>on where to start to make it a controller? (Maybe for a lawnmower first
>then work my way up to the bigger stuff!)
>
>Later,
>DAve
>
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>===========================================================
>
	This has been done by several aftermarket ECM manufacturers including a
member in Australia that designed and sold a system of this type.
Unfortunetly I doubt they will share much helpful information but they
might since these systems are getting old and have or will be replaced with
a new generation.  
	On a more helpful note assighen I/O to devices and sensors, T chosen
sensors to exsisting ones and monitor and data log these devices.  I perfer
Boneyard sensors that are easily replaceable at any parts store.  This step
is optional but should provied a good learning experince, Write your
software and compare under driving conditions with factory EFI system.  
	When all is done and working a simple batch fire or throtle body system
simmaler to GM up to about 93 should be possible. I first got my 68HC11
Board for this purpose but got impatiant to drive the car and a Quadrajet
was so easy and quick.  
	Please keep me and most probably the rest of the list updated on your
progress.  

				Todd Israels

	



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan  3 23:06:00 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 18:06:00 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31520.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>>
>	I have also been following this thread.  Yes PWM is a great way to control
>a motor, especialy if accuracy in speed or position is required.  This
>would be of great advantage if the return line to the tank can be
>eliminated by using PWM and a presure sensor.
>
>				Todd Israels
>
There was a thread a couple of months ago, on this subject--some auto
mfgrs. are now beginning to do exactly this, although, I am quite certain,
mostly in the interest of less parts and less fuel line, together with
lower evap emissions potential, rather than in the interest of a better
system.

I would maintain that it would be BEST to use PWM control of the fuel pump
TOGETHER WITH a mechanical pressure regulator. Belt AND suspenders
approach, but it would maintain some circulation of fuel through the system
(so as to keep it cool and purged of any vapor) as well as allowing
extremely accurate, consistent function of the mechanical fuel pressure
regulator.

Regards, Greg




From tparker at nznet.gen.nz  Sun Jan  3 23:06:02 1999
From: tparker at nznet.gen.nz (Tom Parker)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 18:06:02 -0500
Subject: SV: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31521.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Roland Johansson <scirocco at mail.bip.net> wrote:

>First it didn't show up in my mind but when thinking of this
>idea a drawback appeared to me. All the welding helmets I been
>looking thruu (two) are having a big green filter, looks like
>that might be a problem. But why not have a LCD showing the
>plate number and turning it off when a flash appear?
>Hm, have to go to my fathers house and make a close examination
>of his helmet in the evening

That's a good idea! However, in this part of the world, I would expect to get
nicked for it. The police won't be very impressed with a number plate that
obviously isn't reflective and is probably designed to avoid them...

--
Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan  3 23:30:16 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 18:30:16 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31522.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>	Did Dodge not use EFI on late 80's pickups and cant that be put on an
>older engige or swap entire engine?  I dont know Dodge maybe you do have to
>reinvent the wheel.  If you have room to the front of the engine you can
>swap in a Viper engine?(yes I know VERY $$ and hard to find at least in
>Ontario Canada)

I think he's already up to using a 383 ("B" big block). These and the "RB"s
(raised deck) went away I think in '76 or so, before EFI. A 383 (or better
yet a 413/426/440 RB) is so far superior to a 318/340/360 as to be almost
funny.  Have not heard a lot of noise one way or the other yet, but I have
not heard of many V-10's in things like boats yet. Nor have I seen any
Moparts aftermarket advertising for  V-10's. The fact that the same folks
are resurrecting the elephant (426 Hemi) prolly speaks pretty powerfully to
which block is the better one!! I would almost bet that you could acquire a
new Hemi for the same money as a low mileage Viper motor!! May well be
close to the same story for a low mileage V-10 truck motor!!

And I know EXACTLY how I would choose to spend the loot if it were me doing
it!!!

If nothing else is at hand, I am sure that Blower Drive Service could
whistle up an intake set up for (port) injectors for a B (or an RB) engine.
But watch it, the manifold for an RB is wider on account of the higher
decks. Yes, manifold spacers are commonly available.  But I have never seen
any "unspacers"!! Maybe someone who specializes in rescuing and
deprogramming "Moonies" could help with this, though! :-)

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan  4 00:26:07 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:26:07 -0500
Subject: SV: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31523.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Roland Johansson <scirocco at mail.bip.net> wrote:
>
>>First it didn't show up in my mind but when thinking of this
>>idea a drawback appeared to me. All the welding helmets I been
>>looking thruu (two) are having a big green filter, looks like
>>that might be a problem. But why not have a LCD showing the
>>plate number and turning it off when a flash appear?
>>Hm, have to go to my fathers house and make a close examination
>>of his helmet in the evening
>
>That's a good idea! However, in this part of the world, I would expect to get
>nicked for it. The police won't be very impressed with a number plate that
>obviously isn't reflective and is probably designed to avoid them...

Nope, I like the idea of shining a light, filtered through a filter same
color as one of the major plate colors, and mottled, at the plate, and
triggering the light on, plus a delay on, either with a radar detector or a
the flash, or maybe the flash detection as a back-up to the radar detector
(belt and suspenders again)!
Might not need the mottling of the light if, for instance with a white on
green plate, the filtered light could make the white numbers look just as
green as the green field of the plate to the black and white film in the
camera! But it seems as though if you mottled the light in the two colors
of the plate, it would get virtually impossible to read the numbers off the
film! Maybe  a light filtered with a rotating filter giving alternation
between the two colors. or two alternating strobes, one filtered to match
each of the major colors of the plate could wash out the film the best.

Regards, Greg
>
>--
>Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
>           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/




From memvive at globetrotter.qc.ca  Mon Jan  4 01:00:37 1999
From: memvive at globetrotter.qc.ca (H Villemure)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 20:00:37 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31524.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thank you Dave,

this is pretty impressive on a V engine with single turbo. Did they come
with T03 turbos? What turbine and compressor trims? Also, I would like
to know if they had a symmetric exhaust manifold? Else I would not put
big money on the car's lifetime?

> A Stock (FACTORY) Grand national will whip out mid 13's in 70 degree
> weather on factory tires... this is on 17PSI boost
> They are 3.8L (231 CI)
> Factory rated them at 245 HP, 330 Lb/Ft torque... A factory car on a dyno
> was putting 245HP at the rear wheels!
> That made crank HP about 300.
> For very few dollars (Bypass the catalytic converter, new chip and better
> tires) the GN's would nail high 12 second 1/4 mile times at 106-107MPH...
> For $1000, you could have low 12's.
> This is all with a 3500 Lb car!!!
> 
> Lawrence Conley of Humble, TX took his 86GN and got it running 9.90's.
> Factory block, forged pistons, ported/polished heads, bigger cam, bigger
> turbo etc... And it was as streetable as the day it was bought (Except
> getting in and out of the roll cage was a pain!)
> His last TR, an 83 regal with a stage II 4.1L V6 was 1200+ HP, and ran a
> best of 7.83 @ 178MPH in the 1/4 mile... all on a single turbo, no Nitrous,
> and on 117 octane VP C16 racing fuel.
> 
> Later,
> Dave

-- 
Helene V.
___________________
"If it ain't broke, make it faster"
Celica Supra 1982 & 1983
Owners of the great Celica Supra cars welcome to mk2 at onelist.com  :)




From ECMnut at aol.com  Mon Jan  4 01:42:47 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 20:42:47 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31525.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/3/99 8:06:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
memvive at globetrotter.qc.ca writes:

> 
>  this is pretty impressive on a V engine with single turbo. Did they come
>  with T03 turbos? What turbine and compressor trims? Also, I would like
>  to know if they had a symmetric exhaust manifold? Else I would not put
>  big money on the car's lifetime?
>  


From javer96 at snowcrest.net  Mon Jan  4 01:53:10 1999
From: javer96 at snowcrest.net (Vance Rose)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 20:53:10 -0500
Subject: Engine book
Message-ID: <mailman.31526.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 11:39 PM 1/2/1999 EST, you wrote:
>Jerry, 
>	I work in Pacoima Ca., but I don't want to make you waste your time driving
>to loan a book to a stranger. If you think the book is worth it I will order
>it from a catalogue so I can have a copy of it for my small, but growing
>library of car stuff. I am currently waiting for a couple of books I ordered
>from Summit Racing. One of them is from JTR (Jaguars That Run) I guess they
>specialize in that sort of thing too. I appreciate the offer though (and if I
>can't find one I might take you up on it after all).
>Jeff
>
>Hi All

	Jtr has several book available. Can order direct. They also have a webb
page with info on their books. Just do a webb search for jtr.

Vance


From ECMnut at aol.com  Mon Jan  4 01:55:53 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 20:55:53 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31527.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Yep, don't have one, but have played with chips for a number of
friends, and It's very impressive when a 3700 lb family car with air 
conditioning, power windows, power sunroof (you get the idea)
can drive to the drag strip, bolt on a set of stickies and turn 10's.
That's with a big turbo, bigger intercooler and injectors, but that's 
still pretty impressive.  The Buick V6 (pushrod, 2 valve) engine is
really a work horse.  BTW, they have a 'sort of' stainless tube 
header arrangement.  .I believe the stock turbo was a T3..
The web site has tons of info at: 
                  http://ni.umd.edu/gnttype/www/
Mike V

> 
>  this is pretty impressive on a V engine with single turbo. Did they come
>  with T03 turbos? What turbine and compressor trims? Also, I would like
>  to know if they had a symmetric exhaust manifold? Else I would not put
>  big money on the car's lifetime?
>  


From Efi at cardozo.org  Mon Jan  4 02:08:10 1999
From: Efi at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:08:10 -0500
Subject: Plans for complete EFI system now online (ECU6)
Message-ID: <mailman.31528.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

have recently completed a near-final phase of a throttle-body EFI system. It is
a complete adaptive learning system for which I have 
provided schematics, PC board layout and software. I'm also interested in
other's feedback and ideas. Anyway, you can check it out at: 
http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/
Al



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Mon Jan  4 02:38:58 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:38:58 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31529.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 05:44 PM 1/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Thank you Dave,
>
>this is pretty impressive on a V engine with single turbo. Did they come
>with T03 turbos? What turbine and compressor trims? Also, I would like
>to know if they had a symmetric exhaust manifold? Else I would not put
>big money on the car's lifetime?
>

I think the factory was a variant of the T03, but can't remember for sure.
I believe the exhaust housing was a .60 or .62 A/R.
The exhaust manifolds were "kind of" tubular headers...
Fairly equal length runners.  In stock trim and modified with chips, boost
cranked up, cooler thermostat etc, they will run 150,000 miles with no
problems (If they are well maintained)... According to the man that
designed the GN engine (Bernard Santavy) the engine was built to handle
600HP reliably.
Later,
Dave

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From edwards at mail.sunbeach.net  Mon Jan  4 02:47:30 1999
From: edwards at mail.sunbeach.net (Pedro Haynes)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:47:30 -0500
Subject: TurboS
Message-ID: <mailman.31530.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I am truing to find some Nissan Zparts

Any one know where to find the Z18 turbo, or the head manifolds, and turbo
or the whole engine?

Pedro.



From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Mon Jan  4 02:59:01 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:59:01 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31531.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Industrial speed controller are available off the shelf that have an analog 
input to control output speed. If anyone is interested I could get the 
part/model #'s, we use them at work to control a 24Vdc blower motor but 
they work just fine @ 14V.

----------
From: 	Clarence L.Snyder[SMTP:clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net]
Sent: 	January 2, 1999 2:05 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: Voltage regulator

David A. Cooley wrote:
>
> At 04:55 AM 1/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >How about using a big pump and cutting the voltage when all that
> >capacity is not required? Will the pump last longer, etc.???
> >
>
> That would be almost as bad as overvoltage...  Under voltage can kill 
them
> as well.
> ===========================================================
>            David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>      Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>        I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be 
approximated.
> ===========================================================
Actually, no. An AC motor is definitely sensitive to low voltage, for
various reasons. A DC motor does NOT suffer this way. A 24 volt motor
will run on 12 volts virtually forever, as long as the load placed on it
does not cause it to overload and overheat, or most dangerous, stall.
Using PWM control is better yet, as it does NOT reduce the peak
voltage/torque at all - it just modulates it. PWM control on a DC type
motor reduces speed without APPRECIABLY reducing torque.This "chopper"
type control, with feedback, could be used to control fuel pressure as
accurately as the current vacuum modulated spring type regulators - if
you can also control "bypass" to avoid vapour problems.



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From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Mon Jan  4 02:59:45 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:59:45 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31532.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Try Liberty Gear just outside Detroit for A833 parts, Joe carries parts for just about any 4 spd. 

----------
From: 	Bill the arcstarter[SMTP:arcstarter at hotmail.com]
Sent: 	January 2, 1999 7:35 PM
To: 	diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu; frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com
Subject: 	Re: EFI on a Dodge 318

Frederic Breitwieser wrote:

>>Sounds like an A-833 trans.  Ever had one apart?  Mine needs 
>>synchros... 
>
>Nope, just had the top cover off and peered inside, and can visually 
>see the bent forks.  its that bad.  but, it shifts, and hopefully its
>repairable without too much effort.  If the forks/syncro's are not
>available, which they should be considering how many years this 
>tranny was available, I might go syncro-less.  Though it is a truck, 
>not a race car.

Any chance you just need forks?  The forks can be replaced w/o pulling 
the trans apart!

>I've found that to be with Chryslers in general.  I've found ZERO 
>dodge trucks in the five or six junkyards that I frequent - and on a 
>trip to Raleigh in the beginning of the month I found a few and 
>scavanaged parts I needed - like the brake cables for the parking 
>brake.

Yea, same here.  I got my bellhousing from Binghamton, NY and I live in 
Ohio.  The yards around here had ZERO and the best they could do was get 
one via locator for $250!  Robbery!  I ended up paying $60 for the one 
from NY.  I consider myself lucky at that price.

Apparently there are yards in the New England area with loads of 
moparts...

-Bill

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From ECMnut at aol.com  Mon Jan  4 03:37:04 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:37:04 -0500
Subject: TurboS
Message-ID: <mailman.31533.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/3/99 9:51:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
edwards at mail.sunbeach.net writes:

<< 
 Any one know where to find the Z18 turbo, or the head manifolds, and turbo
 or the whole engine? >>
Yep... are you near Cleveland, Ohio, USA?
Have friend that sells used import engines.. 
Usually has the Nissan turbo stuff in stock..
What year is it??
Mike


From gderian at cybergate.net  Mon Jan  4 04:07:43 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 23:07:43 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31534.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

A couple thoughts:

Transmissions only see  torque.  Power ratings are not technically correct.
If someone is rating a trans for power, find out the rpm range and calculate
the torque they really mean.  The only effect power has is to heat up the
lube.  An oil cooler can fix that problem.  Usually its the output side that
breaks when in 1st gear due to the torque multiplication.

Intercoolers are great for cooling compressed intake air resulting in higher
mass flow.  Water injection is great for its anti-detonation qualities.  Use
both!

A heavy flywheel absorbs torque when the car is accelerating, especially in
the lower gears.  This reduces the stress in the transmission.  It also
smooths the torque which also helps.  But don't dump the clutch, here the
flywheel weight hurts the trans.  I think a soft clutch is a great way to
save transmissions.

180 degree headers on a V-6?  Wouldn't routing each bank into a turbo (3
into 1) result in 120 deg and every other pulse into each turbo?  Same for
intake.

AWD is really great for low traction conditions and year-round driving.
Rear wheel drive with a mid engine and sticky tires should be nearly as good
on dry pavement with way less complexity.  How and where do you drive?

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>




From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan  4 05:55:11 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 00:55:11 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31535.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>A couple thoughts:
>
>Transmissions only see  torque.  Power ratings are not technically correct.
>If someone is rating a trans for power, find out the rpm range and calculate
>the torque they really mean.  The only effect power has is to heat up the
>lube.  An oil cooler can fix that problem.  Usually its the output side that
>breaks when in 1st gear due to the torque multiplication.
>
>Intercoolers are great for cooling compressed intake air resulting in higher
>mass flow.  Water injection is great for its anti-detonation qualities.  Use
>both!
>
>A heavy flywheel absorbs torque when the car is accelerating, especially in
>the lower gears.  This reduces the stress in the transmission.  It also
>smooths the torque which also helps.  But don't dump the clutch, here the
>flywheel weight hurts the trans.  I think a soft clutch is a great way to
>save transmissions.
>
>180 degree headers on a V-6?  Wouldn't routing each bank into a turbo (3
>into 1) result in 120 deg and every other pulse into each turbo?  Same for
>intake.
>
>AWD is really great for low traction conditions and year-round driving.
>Rear wheel drive with a mid engine and sticky tires should be nearly as good
>on dry pavement with way less complexity.  How and where do you drive?
>
>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

All true, in theory, but what I said about using a light flywheel and crank
stands, especially if you are using sticky tires, and especially for
racing. Most tranny failures are caused by impact loading, which happens
when flywheel inertia hits the gears against good traction on the other end
of things if the driver is the least bit careless with the clutch.

A soft clutch can keep you from finishing--and would therefore be a poor
choice, at least in my estimation. Plus, a lightweight flywheel  and crank
means a MUCH quicker car, which is what racing is all about!

If you doubt the bit about inertia loading being the thing which will break
a driveline, try driving a semi with a lowboy trailer with a piece of heavy
equipment on board sometime--with a GCVW in the 100K range.
A Cummins 855, and even more emphatically a KT-6 or a Cat 3406 could never
be accused of being low rotating inertia engines, there are obvious gobs of
traction available in this sort of a case, and it is as easy as sneezing to
shuck teeth off of ring gears or shear a driveline on this kind of a rig!

To the point that most competent drivers of such rigs only touch the clutch
when starting out from rest, and never touch the throttle when touching the
clutch! It is just way too easy to get real expensive repair bills any
other way!!

Regards, Greg




From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com  Mon Jan  4 07:07:24 1999
From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 02:07:24 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31536.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


--------------50B958DAB5410CD9DA92E805
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Gary Derian wrote:

> A couple thoughts:
>
> Transmissions only see  torque.  Power ratings are not technically correct.
> If someone is rating a trans for power, find out the rpm range and calculate
> the torque they really mean.  The only effect power has is to heat up the
> lube.  An oil cooler can fix that problem.  Usually its the output side that
> breaks when in 1st gear due to the torque multiplication.
>
>

Just a note: considering the torque curve of your engine might not be a bad idea
when selecting a transmission.  When BMC (or whoever they were at that point)
converted the old (!) B-series engine for diesel use, they began breaking
transmissions due to the high cyclic torque output of the engine - in other
words, the torque was powerful enough at low RPM to break things because it was
applied in a few strong, slow, individual pulses, not in many weaker pulses as a
gasoline engine would to produce the same torque output at a higher RPM.

Just my two cents

Aaron

--------------50B958DAB5410CD9DA92E805
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML>
&nbsp;
<P>Gary Derian wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>A couple thoughts:
<P>Transmissions only see&nbsp; torque.&nbsp; Power ratings are not technically
correct.
<BR>If someone is rating a trans for power, find out the rpm range and
calculate
<BR>the torque they really mean.&nbsp; The only effect power has is to
heat up the
<BR>lube.&nbsp; An oil cooler can fix that problem.&nbsp; Usually its the
output side that
<BR>breaks when in 1st gear due to the torque multiplication.
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
Just a note: considering the torque curve of your engine might not be a
bad idea when selecting a transmission.&nbsp; When BMC (or whoever they
were at that point) converted the old (!) B-series engine for diesel use,
they began breaking transmissions due to the high <U>cyclic</U> torque
output of the engine - in other words, the torque was powerful enough at
low RPM to break things because it was applied in a few strong, slow, individual
pulses, not in many weaker pulses as a gasoline engine would to produce
the same torque output at a higher RPM.
<P>Just my two cents
<P>Aaron</HTML>

--------------50B958DAB5410CD9DA92E805--



From tkkhoo at hotmail.com  Mon Jan  4 07:39:05 1999
From: tkkhoo at hotmail.com (Khoo Teck-Khoon)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 02:39:05 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31537.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am 
interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the 
air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with 
electronics, but I've seen similar products. Therefore, I hope that 
anyone of you super geniuses can help me. In Malaysia, I couldn't find 
such a product. And to import it in would cost me an arm and leg due to 
the import duties. Thank you.

Regards
tkkhoo at hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From stuart at kenelec.com.au  Mon Jan  4 09:09:59 1999
From: stuart at kenelec.com.au (Stuart Bunning)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 04:09:59 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31538.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I have not tried but would be interested in the results.

You can get digital multimeters that have a duty cycle input this should
work and not cost much.
Some multimeters have a dwell for  checking ignition dwell/points gap which
may work for injectors????

If anyone has this type of multimeter one could they try it for us..


At 11:38 PM 3/1/99 PST, you wrote:
>I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am 
>interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the 
>air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with 
>electronics, but I've seen similar products. Therefore, I hope that 
>anyone of you super geniuses can help me. In Malaysia, I couldn't find 
>such a product. And to import it in would cost me an arm and leg due to 
>the import duties. Thank you.
>
>Regards
>tkkhoo at hotmail.com
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>


Best Regards,

STUART BUNNING
SALES ENGINEER
KENELEC PTY LTD

23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
AUSTRALIA

PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
EMAIL:  stuart at kenelec.com.au
WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/



From dhigh at hitachi-eu.com  Mon Jan  4 10:17:44 1999
From: dhigh at hitachi-eu.com (David-HMSE Higham)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:17:44 -0500
Subject: Drive by wire and the wish to survive the experience.
Message-ID: <mailman.31539.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

     Some general points/ideas.
     
     Sensor diagnostics - 
     Generally sensor failures are detected either hi and lo range, when 
     out of range a fail count is started. When this count equals a defined 
     limit then a sensor hard fault is set, and a default value is 
     substituted. If the sensor value goes back into range then a recovery 
     count is started, when this equals a limit then the sensor has 
     recovered, the hard fault is cleared and sensor value is used again. 
     Other features are usually incorporated such as limiting the number of 
     hard faults per mission and storing faults to E2PROM etc.
     
     DBW safety - 
     The 5v to wiper seems like a good idea, I will give that a try!
     
     On a DBW (Drive By Wire), the ECU would have calc'd the demanded 
     throttle position. If the TPS is deemed failed, then I assume the ECU 
     would enter some limp home mode (reduced power etc), and as stated 
     below, would uses MAF and RPM to estimate TPS for continued safety 
     checking. 
     
     Just to confirm DBW uses a Driver demand signal from the pedal, uses 
     this to calc throttle position set via a stepper motor, with TPS used 
     as feedback. (No throttle cable present.)??????
     
     Sensor Sampling - 
     Somebody inquired general sensor sampling rates. The sensors can be 
     slip into fast and slow sampling (posibly medium also.) Coolant temp 
     for example would be a slow sample >100ms where as MAF and MAP would 
     be much faster <10ms (could be speed dependant). It generally depands 
     on the control loop within which these sensors are used.
     
     Any comments?
     
     Cheers,
     
     Dave


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Drive by wire and the wish to survice the experience.
Author:  "David A. Cooley" <n5xmt at bellsouth.net> at Internet-hel
Date:    31/12/98 15:48


At 03:36 PM 12/31/98 -0500, you wrote:
>It would kill both sides, but your control circuit would know 
>*immediately* that there was a failure. Any setup, with any >number 
of levels of redundancy, can *still* fail. The key point >then is 
that you be able to *know* it's failed. An ordinary TPS >setup gives 
you no such luxury; this slight change does, with >almost no extra 
hardware. There's nothing to stop you from running >dual (triple, 
quad, etc) TPSs as well, depending how much >redundancy you need, as 
opposed to failsafe, which is what I said >this trick does. (Though 
personally I'd consider an LVDT on the >throttle cable as backup 
instead, in my experience they're more >reliable.)
     
Actually, the TPS does have a way of knowing there is a failure...
In the cal, they program max hi and min low voltages that are valid... If 
the TPS input falls outside this range, it disables TPS, and estimates TPS 
from MAF or MAT and RPM etc.
Later,
Dave
     
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From georg at redxch.wcape.gov.za  Mon Jan  4 10:22:48 1999
From: georg at redxch.wcape.gov.za (Georg Lerm)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:22:48 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31540.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi 

I have some time ago posted a file to the ftp site in the incoming 
directory.The name of the file is pwmeter.zip

It  measures the on time of the injector in milliseconds to 0.1 ms 
resolution if I remember correctly.Resolution could be increased.

If somebody is willing to give me some idea or specification or an 
example of what needs to be measured, I could change the code to do
this.
Is this referenced to rpm or is it just the on versus off time 
of the injector.

Regards
Georg
Georg Lerm
Chief Technician
Clinical Engineering
Red Cross Hospital
Cape Town
South Africa
Tel. +27 21 658-5120
Fax. +27 21 658-5120


From scirocco at mail.bip.net  Mon Jan  4 10:29:46 1999
From: scirocco at mail.bip.net (Roland Johansson)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:29:46 -0500
Subject: SV: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31541.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The european Audis use both an intank pump to feed and a high
pressure pump outside the tank. Might have been changed for
later cars.



Roland Johansson
Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82
> > BMW, Ford (some), and VW/Audi all use external high pressure
pumps. I am
> > using one from a VW on my TPI Trans Am with no starvation
problems. YMMV
> 
> Only some Audi.  The 5000/200 series use an in-tank pump (it
_can_
> be R&R'd from the trunk tho').
> 
> Orin.



From janne at navigate.se  Mon Jan  4 11:22:28 1999
From: janne at navigate.se (Jan Wännman)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:22:28 -0500
Subject: schematic program
Message-ID: <mailman.31542.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi !

I?m looking for a good and cheap scematic program, I have noticed in
some of uploaded files that there are a lot differet schematic programs
ourund, so what do you suggest ?? Anything running under Linux maybe?

/ Janne

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Janne W?nnman 

http://www.navigate.se/~janne/janne.htm
_________________________________________


From chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca  Mon Jan  4 13:42:58 1999
From: chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca (Wen Yen Chan)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:42:58 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31543.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello,

In most of the DC motor drive circuits I've played with the only filtering
between the controller and the motor was there to cut down the RFI. 
Generally the inductance of the motor coils and the inertia of the rotor
is enough to smooth out the pulsations. Due to the coil inductance and the
freewheeling diodes the current through the motor is fairly constant (at a
given setting) even though the input voltage may be turning on and off. The
average current through the motor's coils is roughly (the average input
voltage - the back EMF)/(DC coil resistance). The magnitude of the ripple
(pk-pk) is roughly ((Peak input voltage)-(back EMF)-(average current)*(DC
coil resistance))/(2*(switching freq)*inductance). The back EMF is
proportional to speed and motor flux.


On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Tom Parker wrote:

> Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net> wrote:
> 
> >>At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>Hence, the proper answer of PWM.
> >>
> >>Exactly!
> >>The pump still sees full voltage, it just has it for a limited time!
> 
> >C'mon--the PWM switch LOWERS the AVERAGE voltage by switching teh FULL
> >voltage on and off rapidly. As I said, you want good smoothing of the
> >output, cuz the rapid pulsing IS what will dissassemble the windings!
> 
> Won't the smoothing system turn it into a lower constant voltage? If you have
> enough capacatance across it, it will just average out the pulses.
> 
> Or do you mean not this much smoothing, but enough to take the sharp edges of
> the transitions between on and off?
> 
> 
> --
> Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
>            - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/
> 
> 



From chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca  Mon Jan  4 13:46:43 1999
From: chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca (Wen Yen Chan)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:46:43 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31544.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello,

Jacobs electronics manufactures a product called the AccuVolt. I think
they have a model rated @ 100 A with an adjustable output (9-16 volts).
The device is a regulated switching p.s.



On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Barry Tisdale wrote:

> Any electronics gurus out there familiar w/ voltage boosters / regulators?  There's a manufacturer out there specializing in aftermarket parts for turbo cars that sells an adjustable voltage regulator that will supply 12-16v (@ up to 40a) from a battery source of 8-12v, to boost the stock fuel pump output.
> 
> Any idea what circuitry is involved?  The price of this gadget is $250 or so, which probably means you could put it together for $50 (?).  If the stock pump is not up to the needs of a hopped up engine, this seems like a neat gadget.
> 
> Barry
> 



From pford at qnx.com  Mon Jan  4 14:02:27 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:02:27 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31545.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Sat, 6 Jan 1990, Frederic Breitwieser wrote:

> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1990 21:53:59 -0500
> From: Frederic Breitwieser <frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Water Injection Thread
> 
> Greetings,
> 

BIG snip of very interesting stuff

> 
> A cheesy knock sensor schematic leached off the web fed a third input to
> the op-amp circuit so if the engine knocked, it alky'd itself just to be
> sure detonation was squashed, squashed, squashed.


do you rememberwhere to find this schematic ??


> 
> Frederic Breitwieser
> Fairfield County CT
> http://www.xephic.dynip.com/
> 1989 500cid Twin-Turbo HMMV
> 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
> 1973 460cid Lincoln Continental
> 1975 Dodge D200 3/4 Ton Club Cab
> 2000 Buick Twin-Turbo GTP (in progress)
> 
> "Forced Induction as a Way of Life!"
> 
> 
> 

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From JemisonR at tce.com  Mon Jan  4 14:30:52 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:30:52 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31546.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Header tuning is done to help scavenge the cylinder and ensure a clean fresh
charge.  Turbo charging does the same thing by increasing the pressure at
the intake side.  The turbine on the exhaust side represents a restriction.
If it didn't the turbine wouldn't turn!  As such, no tuning of the exhaust
is going to help move the gases through the pipes any faster or better.  You
could make the turbine less restrictive but this is tuning the turbo to
higher rpms with more lag time on the bottom end.

Most turbine kits have fairly short runs to maintain as much heat as
possible (the realm of turbos is the realm of thermodynamics).  It is the
energy of the exhaust gases that drives the turbine.  So, short runs, even
insulate the pipes to retain as much heat as possible.  On the back side of
the turbo, make the exhaust pipe as large as you like! 

Also turbine housings determine the characteristics of the turbo.  Larger
housings produce higher HP by passing more exhaust gas allowing the
compressor charge to purge the cylinder but can leave a hole on the bottom
end as there is a lag in changing the speed of the turbo.  Smaller turbine
housings are much more responsive and can change compressor speed much more
quickly but can become restrictive at higher rpms.  this is the reason some
cars have multiple turbos.  To cover holes on the bottom while providing the
necessary volume at the top end.  

If your application can produce max hp with a single turbo while at the same
time not experiencing lag on the bottom end, money spent on multiple turbos
is wasted money.  On the other hand, if you can only obtain max volume with
a setup that leaves a lag at the bottom end, it is possible the only
recourse will be 2 (or more) turbos.

Quick recap:  A good turbine combination is the marriage of the right
compressor with the right turbine housing.
	compressor must be large enough to supply sufficient volume of air
required at max rpm
	The turbine determines how fast the compressor spins. 
	Bigger turbine housings will flow more exhaust gases but will take
longer to change the speed of the turbo (expecially at low 
		low rpms)
	Smaller turbine housings will flow less exhaust gas but will spin up
much faster (no bottom end hole). 
	There is no advantage to be gained by trying to "tune" the exhaust
by either pipe length or pipe matching at collectors.

Good luck!

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Gary Derian [SMTP:gderian at cybergate.net]
> Sent:	Sunday, January 03, 1999 10:39 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Water Injection Thread
> 
> A couple thoughts:
> 
> Transmissions only see  torque.  Power ratings are not technically
> correct.
> If someone is rating a trans for power, find out the rpm range and
> calculate
> the torque they really mean.  The only effect power has is to heat up the
> lube.  An oil cooler can fix that problem.  Usually its the output side
> that
> breaks when in 1st gear due to the torque multiplication.
> 
> Intercoolers are great for cooling compressed intake air resulting in
> higher
> mass flow.  Water injection is great for its anti-detonation qualities.
> Use
> both!
> 
> A heavy flywheel absorbs torque when the car is accelerating, especially
> in
> the lower gears.  This reduces the stress in the transmission.  It also
> smooths the torque which also helps.  But don't dump the clutch, here the
> flywheel weight hurts the trans.  I think a soft clutch is a great way to
> save transmissions.
> 
> 180 degree headers on a V-6?  Wouldn't routing each bank into a turbo (3
> into 1) result in 120 deg and every other pulse into each turbo?  Same for
> intake.
> 
> AWD is really great for low traction conditions and year-round driving.
> Rear wheel drive with a mid engine and sticky tires should be nearly as
> good
> on dry pavement with way less complexity.  How and where do you drive?
> 
> Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
> 


From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan  4 14:32:01 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:32:01 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31547.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Gary Derian wrote:
>
>> A couple thoughts:
>>
>> Transmissions only see  torque.  Power ratings are not technically correct.
>> If someone is rating a trans for power, find out the rpm range and calculate
>> the torque they really mean.  The only effect power has is to heat up the
>> lube.  An oil cooler can fix that problem.  Usually its the output side that
>> breaks when in 1st gear due to the torque multiplication.
>>
>>
>
>Just a note: considering the torque curve of your engine might not be a
>bad idea
>when selecting a transmission.  When BMC (or whoever they were at that point)
>converted the old (!) B-series engine for diesel use, they began breaking
>transmissions due to the high cyclic torque output of the engine - in other
>words, the torque was powerful enough at low RPM to break things because it was
>applied in a few strong, slow, individual pulses, not in many weaker
>pulses as a
>gasoline engine would to produce the same torque output at a higher RPM.
>
>Just my two cents
>
>Aaron
>
Betcha they made the flywheel heavier , among other parts of the conversion!

Greg




From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan  4 14:39:41 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:39:41 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31548.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Georg Lerm <georg at redxch.wcape.gov.za>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

Which reminds me when I try to look at anything, I get a drop down box, and
asked what viewer,  what do I select?.    The options are like excel, cs,
cdphoto,
etc..
Thanks
Bruce


Hi

I have some time ago posted a file to the ftp site in the incoming
directory.The name of the file is pwmeter.zip

It  measures the on time of the injector in milliseconds to 0.1 ms
resolution if I remember correctly.Resolution could be increased.

If somebody is willing to give me some idea or specification or an
example of what needs to be measured, I could change the code to do
this.
Is this referenced to rpm or is it just the on versus off time
of the injector.

Regards
Georg
Georg Lerm
Chief Technician
Clinical Engineering
Red Cross Hospital
Cape Town
South Africa
Tel. +27 21 658-5120
Fax. +27 21 658-5120




From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Mon Jan  4 14:47:21 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:47:21 -0500
Subject: Voltage regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.31549.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence Wood wrote:
> 
>   Following this thread with great interest!  What is PWM??
> 
> At 08:27 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Greg Hermann wrote:
> >>
> >> >At 01:55 PM 1/2/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>Hence, the proper answer of PWM.
Pulse Width Modulation, or a "chopper"


From s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au  Mon Jan  4 14:47:51 1999
From: s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au (Mos)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:47:51 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31550.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Ronald T. Webb wrote:

M>
M>
M>Oh yea - one more thing - you don't need to trigger the LCD from a camera flash, just
M>drive it from a RADAR detector. Pick the signal off the red LED, and throw in a 10
M>second delay before the LCD is allowed to return to normal.

Ahh, but the point here is to only obscure the number plate when the
picture is being taken, so there is no way a cop can see the plate being
obscured.. Yes, in Australia you do get chase cars accompanying car
mounted speed cameras, and they will look funny at something that wlooks
weird for ten seconds (If you're gonna display a different number, remember
it wont look normal unless u only do things like change U's to O's, or F's
to E's.. u still need the reflective crap to show thru).
What about painting the reflective stuff with opaque paint? Still the same
colour, just much less reflective.
On another note.. If you get a radar detector.. Why the hell would you need
to cover ur plate??? Oh yeah, do shadow detectors in US really cost only
$100???

M>Now we have :
M>                        LCD hood - $250
M>                        RADAR detector : $100
M>                        555 delay timer    : $.50     555 design
M>
M>Remember - Never build it if you can buy it...

What??? ;ppp

Cheers, Mos.

M>
M>
M>

--
+----------------------------------------------------+
|           Jealousy is a lifelong curse...          |
|     Reality is the only obstacle to happiness.     |
|              Taciturnity is aurous.                |
+----------------------------------------------------+
| Lukasz Szymanski,                       /\/\OSFET  |
| 3rd Yr, BE(Comp)/MBiomedE                       |--+
| The University of New South Wales            __||<-+
| Email: s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au                 |--|
| Web: http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~s2193387/         |
+----------------------------------------------------+



From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Mon Jan  4 15:52:17 1999
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:52:17 -0500
Subject: Water vs Intercooler
Message-ID: <mailman.31551.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Now that all the theoretical discussions are winding down and everyone is
reconvinced they were right and Corky Bell is GOD, I thought perhaps a very
small minority of you might want to  look at the results someone got actually
testing water injection in the later half of the twentieth century.  

http://home.ccci.org/Key_Information/MerkurPage.htm



The Luddites were RIGHT!!

Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From afgun at mongoose.dearborn.sgi.com  Mon Jan  4 15:56:06 1999
From: afgun at mongoose.dearborn.sgi.com (Andrew F. Gunnesch)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:56:06 -0500
Subject: more on schematic program
Message-ID: <mailman.31552.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I found a number of schematic and routing programs at
http://www.industry.net/c/mn/_swcircuits

I have yet to try any of them out.  I need to create a smalle
(20-30 components) board.  Does anyone have any suggestions or
recommendations of any of these utilities?


From DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jan  4 16:00:23 1999
From: DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com (Dan Llewellyn2)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:00:23 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31553.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>

The Porsche 930 is a 4 speed 2WD transaxel.  It is very strong.A friend of mine
used one with a 650HP (actual dyno reading)
3.4 liter a 1.4 bar.  The transmission had no problems at all.


> Not sure if the Porsche 930 is AWD, but it's transaxle can handle a VERY
> modified Chevy 350...
> Guy in Los Angeles had a Porsche 911 with an honest 450 HP 350 V8 and a 930
> transaxle... Went for a ride once that scared even me!





From clive at problem.tantech.com  Mon Jan  4 16:01:32 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:01:32 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31554.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> Header tuning is done to help scavenge the cylinder and ensure a clean fresh
> charge.  Turbo charging does the same thing by increasing the pressure at
> the intake side.  The turbine on the exhaust side represents a restriction.
> If it didn't the turbine wouldn't turn!  As such, no tuning of the exhaust
> is going to help move the gases through the pipes any faster or better.  You
> could make the turbine less restrictive but this is tuning the turbo to
> higher rpms with more lag time on the bottom end.

totally wrong
because turbo exhausts are operating under higher pressures
they are even more responsive to exhaust tuning than NA cars
properly designed headers befroe a turbo cna make massive power gains

Clive 


From lkurek at anl.gov  Mon Jan  4 16:07:15 1999
From: lkurek at anl.gov (Kurek, Larry)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:07:15 -0500
Subject: Need H_elp with an 89 MPFI 2.8 V6 (Need MAF...)
Message-ID: <mailman.31555.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Guys:

I am having a slight problem with the 2.8 MPFI motor I put in my S10 in
place of the old carb motor with the hole in the side of the block :)

I was driving home last night and it started cuting out at anything between
off idle to about half throttle...kind of like it was running out of gas,
but it wasn't since I JUST filled up the tank. The fuel pump is new, and is
getting great pressure, so I don't think it is a fuel problem. However...the
motor seemed to fix itself and run great again. No SES light either. Once I
got home, I decided to check the obvious....coil connectors, wires, etc
etc...all seemed fine. However, after a quick test drive, I popped the hood
and it almost died out on me.. came back, and set an SES light...code 34,
low MAF reading. So, I backprobed the MAF connector and all was OK, I
checked for any loose connections and didn't see any either, so i reset the
ECM and it seemed OK. Well, on the drive to work this morning, same damn
thing. Again, a code 34. One of the causes for this code is a leak between
the MAF and the throttle body. I checked this as well, and the only thing
that MAY be a problem, is the temperature sensor bung I siliconed into the
elbow. The silicone looks to have pulled back just a bit and there may be a
SLIGHT opening into the elbow. Could this be enough to cause a problem? I
can't emphasize enough how small of a leak this may be. Are these MAF
sensors that sensitive? FWIW, I am also running an open element K&N filter,
and it has recently gotten quite cold here (Chicago area). 

Sooo....any ideas?  How do I go about testing the MAF itself? Like I
mentioned above...the connector checks out fine with +B, ground, and +5v. 

Does anyone have a spare MAF that they would be willing to part with? This
is a three wire MAF out of an 89 Camaro 2.8 V6. It isn't the hot wire
variety, but seems to use a thermistor instead?

Finally, I did note that the lights on the car dim on occasion for a few
seconds at a time. Could this be a bad alternator? Could this cause the
problems with the MAF? I'm stretching here guys...I don't want to get
stranded in sub-zero temperatures in the middle of nowhere...

Thanks!


Larry


From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Mon Jan  4 16:13:40 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:13:40 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31556.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/2/99 9:05:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, mpilkent at ptw.com
writes:

<< Subj:	 Re: fuel pumps
 Date:	1/2/99 9:05:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 All this talk on fuel pumps brings up a question I have had.  Where can I
 find an aftermarket fuel pump for FI.  All the ones I have seen are for
 carb. engines.  I need one that puts out about 50 psi for the 3.1L V6 motor
 and can be mounted outside the tank.
 
 Mike
 (3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion)
  >>
Mallory 4060 FI   (good for approx 300hp)  or if your really making some power
use a 5110 FI (good for approx 1150 hp)...usually $135 and $250
respectively.......
-Carl Summers


From gderian at cybergate.net  Mon Jan  4 16:14:00 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:14:00 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31557.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I think we agree about flywheel effects.  My point is that a heavy flywheel
will smooth out engine torque variation when the clutch is engaged but can
increase shock loads when starting out, a two edged sword.  My preference is
to have as light a flywheel as I can stand for driveability.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>
>All true, in theory, but what I said about using a light flywheel and crank
>stands, especially if you are using sticky tires, and especially for
>racing. Most tranny failures are caused by impact loading, which happens
>when flywheel inertia hits the gears against good traction on the other end
>of things if the driver is the least bit careless with the clutch.
>
>A soft clutch can keep you from finishing--and would therefore be a poor
>choice, at least in my estimation. Plus, a lightweight flywheel  and crank
>means a MUCH quicker car, which is what racing is all about!
>
>If you doubt the bit about inertia loading being the thing which will break
>a driveline, try driving a semi with a lowboy trailer with a piece of heavy
>equipment on board sometime--with a GCVW in the 100K range.
>A Cummins 855, and even more emphatically a KT-6 or a Cat 3406 could never
>be accused of being low rotating inertia engines, there are obvious gobs of
>traction available in this sort of a case, and it is as easy as sneezing to
>shuck teeth off of ring gears or shear a driveline on this kind of a rig!
>
>To the point that most competent drivers of such rigs only touch the clutch
>when starting out from rest, and never touch the throttle when touching the
>clutch! It is just way too easy to get real expensive repair bills any
>other way!!
>
>Regards, Greg
>



From s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au  Mon Jan  4 16:14:30 1999
From: s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au (Mos)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:14:30 -0500
Subject: SV: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31558.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Roland Johansson wrote:

M>First it didn't show up in my mind but when thinking of this
M>idea a drawback appeared to me. All the welding helmets I been
M>looking thruu (two) are having a big green filter, looks like
M>that might be a problem. But why not have a LCD showing the
M>plate number and turning it off when a flash appear?

Because an LCD panel does not consitute a legal number plate. If you get
pulled over for anything, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to work out
something funny is happening. I very much doubt an LCD panel showing the
numbers would be convincing. Also the welding mask LCD panels turn opaque 
entirely. You would need to obtain an LCD panel that has individual
sections in it to make up the differnet numbers and letters. 
In Australia you are allowed to have clear plastic number plate covers,
hence an LCD panel can be made to look like one of those.

Cheers, Mos.

M>Hm, have to go to my fathers house and make a close examination
M>of his helmet in the evening
M>
M>
M>
M>Roland Johansson
M>Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82
M>> >I like your idea of an LCD screen similar to the expensive
M>welding hoods. The
M>> >opaquing action would not have to outrun the light, only go
M>dark before the
M>> >camera lens had collected sufficient light. Anybody know the
M>shutter speed
M>> >used?
M>> 
M>> There are two sources of light used to expose the film. First
M>is the flash
M>> from the speed camera, the second is the ambient light hanging
M>around. The
M>> shutter speed is likely to be around 1/125 to 1/250 of a
M>second, certainly no
M>> faster than 1/500. Camera flahes have very short durations. I
M>don't know how
M>> quickly the light builds up from the flash, but any trigger
M>circuit would need
M>> to detect the flash building up and get the LCD opaque before
M>enough light had
M>> arived.
M>> 
M>> The effect of the ambient light would be interesting, since
M>this light is
M>> always there, and the flash is triggered somewhere in the
M>middle of the
M>> exposure. The shutter opens fully, then the flash fires, and
M>the shutter
M>> closes. Depending on the power of the flash and the distance
M>from the camera
M>> to the car, ambient light would probably have no real effect
M>on the image.
M>> 
M>> --
M>> Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
M>>            - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/
M>

--
+----------------------------------------------------+
|           Jealousy is a lifelong curse...          |
|     Reality is the only obstacle to happiness.     |
|              Taciturnity is aurous.                |
+----------------------------------------------------+
| Lukasz Szymanski,                       /\/\OSFET  |
| 3rd Yr, BE(Comp)/MBiomedE                       |--+
| The University of New South Wales            __||<-+
| Email: s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au                 |--|
| Web: http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~s2193387/         |
+----------------------------------------------------+



From JemisonR at tce.com  Mon Jan  4 16:56:02 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:56:02 -0500
Subject: SV: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31559.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've followed this thread with some interest (as I hate the concept of
ticket by pix) but I haven't heard a convincing solution yet.  What ever
happened to just covering up the plate with plastic, a hinged panel, etc?  I
only blast through these things at night when no ones around.  That being
the case, no one is going to be following me to see what my plate looks
like.  I'm just starting to think, maybe low tech is the way to go here, ha!

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Mos [SMTP:s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au]
> Sent:	Monday, January 04, 1999 11:13 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: SV: oops... (was Re: Nology)
> 
> On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Roland Johansson wrote:
> 
> M>First it didn't show up in my mind but when thinking of this
> M>idea a drawback appeared to me. All the welding helmets I been
> M>looking thruu (two) are having a big green filter, looks like
> M>that might be a problem. But why not have a LCD showing the
> M>plate number and turning it off when a flash appear?
> 
> Because an LCD panel does not consitute a legal number plate. If you get
> pulled over for anything, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to work out
> something funny is happening. I very much doubt an LCD panel showing the
> numbers would be convincing. Also the welding mask LCD panels turn opaque 
> entirely. You would need to obtain an LCD panel that has individual
> sections in it to make up the differnet numbers and letters. 
> In Australia you are allowed to have clear plastic number plate covers,
> hence an LCD panel can be made to look like one of those.
> 
> Cheers, Mos.
> 
> M>Hm, have to go to my fathers house and make a close examination
> M>of his helmet in the evening
> M>
> M>
> M>
> M>Roland Johansson
> M>Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82
> M>> >I like your idea of an LCD screen similar to the expensive
> M>welding hoods. The
> M>> >opaquing action would not have to outrun the light, only go
> M>dark before the
> M>> >camera lens had collected sufficient light. Anybody know the
> M>shutter speed
> M>> >used?
> M>> 
> M>> There are two sources of light used to expose the film. First
> M>is the flash
> M>> from the speed camera, the second is the ambient light hanging
> M>around. The
> M>> shutter speed is likely to be around 1/125 to 1/250 of a
> M>second, certainly no
> M>> faster than 1/500. Camera flahes have very short durations. I
> M>don't know how
> M>> quickly the light builds up from the flash, but any trigger
> M>circuit would need
> M>> to detect the flash building up and get the LCD opaque before
> M>enough light had
> M>> arived.
> M>> 
> M>> The effect of the ambient light would be interesting, since
> M>this light is
> M>> always there, and the flash is triggered somewhere in the
> M>middle of the
> M>> exposure. The shutter opens fully, then the flash fires, and
> M>the shutter
> M>> closes. Depending on the power of the flash and the distance
> M>from the camera
> M>> to the car, ambient light would probably have no real effect
> M>on the image.
> M>> 
> M>> --
> M>> Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
> M>>            - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/
> M>
> 
> --
> +----------------------------------------------------+
> |           Jealousy is a lifelong curse...          |
> |     Reality is the only obstacle to happiness.     |
> |              Taciturnity is aurous.                |
> +----------------------------------------------------+
> | Lukasz Szymanski,                       /\/\OSFET  |
> | 3rd Yr, BE(Comp)/MBiomedE                       |--+
> | The University of New South Wales            __||<-+
> | Email: s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au                 |--|
> | Web: http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~s2193387/         |
> +----------------------------------------------------+


From ECMnut at aol.com  Mon Jan  4 17:12:57 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:12:57 -0500
Subject: Was Water Injection , now header impact on turbos
Message-ID: <mailman.31560.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

First, let me say that I'd like to hear D. Cooley or 
 F.Breitwieser comment on this topic.

There are often exceptions to rules and trends, but
the following is mostly my opinion, formed while
playing with turbos (as a hobby) for 20 years:

Actually, with many *mild* turbo applications, 
there IS some performance to be gained
by altering primary tube size/length, but I *think* it has
more to do with volume of the tubes..  Turbo Buick
owners who install the popular Hooker headers often
report a loss of bottom end & midrange torque
as well as slower spool-up, while sometimes adding to 
the high RPM power levels.  The effect is similar 
to going to a larger AR turbine housing.  For milder 
applications, there is a thoery, that keeping the
primary tube as short (small volume) as possible
tends to more directly expose the turbine to desirable
low rpm exhaust pulses, which aid in spool-up or
possibly allow you to use a slightly larger turbine 
housing.   There are other factors, but the factory
header/manifold is a good example of the small 
volume exhaust tract, when compared to the Hooker 
Headers.  Just to counter the above argument, 
 when you employ a REALLY high flowing  
 manifold/cam/port arrangement, the advantages
of going *BIG all around* outweigh the pulse benifits
of the small volume headers.  The size of the exhaust
tract (tube ID & length) are a critical part of the total 
"package" that many Turbo racers stress, when 
 discussing and planning modifications to their turbo
cars & trucks.
Comments? yes? no? maybe?
Mike V.  Thread bender for a day..

In a message dated 1/4/99 9:51:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, JemisonR at tce.com
writes:

> 	The turbine determines how fast the compressor spins. 
>  	Bigger turbine housings will flow more exhaust gases but will take
>  longer to change the speed of the turbo (expecially at low 
>  		low rpms)
>  	Smaller turbine housings will flow less exhaust gas but will spin up
>  much faster (no bottom end hole). 
>  	There is no advantage to be gained by trying to "tune" the exhaust
>  by either pipe length or pipe matching at collectors.
>  


From rwhughe at hal-pc.org  Mon Jan  4 17:27:40 1999
From: rwhughe at hal-pc.org (Robert W. Hughes)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:27:40 -0500
Subject: SV: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31561.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

My welding helmet LCD filter is about 1 1/4 x 3 inches and cost $120. It
is a purple tint(dark) when turned off and green when on and not
triggered. It is much too dark at any time to put over a license plate
and have the plate be readable. There may be an internal filter
responsible for some of this opacity but I'm not going to tear it up to
find out - this is probably the best welding accessory ever made.
-- 
Robert W. Hughes (Bob)
BackYard Engineering
Houston, Texas
rwhughe at hal-pc.org


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Mon Jan  4 17:28:53 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:28:53 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31562.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Bruce Plecan wrote:

> 
> Which reminds me when I try to look at anything, I get a drop down box, and
> asked what viewer,  what do I select?.    The options are like excel, cs,
> cdphoto,
> etc..
> Thanks
> Bruce

Depends on the file type.  For most of the files on the FTP site, you
just select "save to disk" or something like that and tell it where to
save it.  Netscape asks you that when it sees a file type that it
doesn't know how to display (like .zip, .exe, others).  If you download
and install winzip (like from www.shareware.com) it'll "register" the
.zip extension, so the next time you click on a .zip file netscape will
know to run winzip for it.  Same with .pdf if you install acrobat
reader, etc.

As far as reading duty cycle, couldn't you make up a circuit with an
opamp buffer, and a resistor/capacitor to filter the signal, then read
the voltage with a digital voltmeter?  0v=0%, 12v=100%?

Or, just go buy a cheap analog voltmeter with a needle.  It's reading
will vary from 0-12 depending on duty cycle.

--steve

> 
> Hi
> 
> I have some time ago posted a file to the ftp site in the incoming
> directory.The name of the file is pwmeter.zip
> 
> It  measures the on time of the injector in milliseconds to 0.1 ms
> resolution if I remember correctly.Resolution could be increased.
> 
> If somebody is willing to give me some idea or specification or an
> example of what needs to be measured, I could change the code to do
> this.
> Is this referenced to rpm or is it just the on versus off time
> of the injector.
> 
> Regards
> Georg
> Georg Lerm
> Chief Technician
> Clinical Engineering
> Red Cross Hospital
> Cape Town
> South Africa
> Tel. +27 21 658-5120
> Fax. +27 21 658-5120


From rwhughe at hal-pc.org  Mon Jan  4 17:37:41 1999
From: rwhughe at hal-pc.org (Robert W. Hughes)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:37:41 -0500
Subject: corvairs?????
Message-ID: <mailman.31563.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> I would think a gm v-6 system would do the trick. something of the same or
> slightly larger displacement.

The system off of a 2.8L GMV6 should be just about perfect. The system
off of a Fiero V6 would probably be best since this was a high
performance unit with a MAP sensor. Even the PROM tables would probably
be very close except for engine temp (my Corvair used to run 300-400deg
head temp where my Fiero runs 195). The two engines are similar in bore
and stroke and camshaft timing and the 2.8 distributor is the small type
so its guts could probably be transplanted into the Corvair distributor,
The biggest problem would be the intake. Ideally you would mill off the
intake manifold and add 6 individual runners to a plenum mounted above
the fan with the throttle body mounted on this. This would require a
modified throttle linkage like the single four-barrel installation.
There would be a lot of detail changes but it would be a really neat car
when complete.
-- 
Robert W. Hughes (Bob)
BackYard Engineering
Houston, Texas
rwhughe at hal-pc.org


From gderian at cybergate.net  Mon Jan  4 17:39:43 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:39:43 -0500
Subject: GM V6
Message-ID: <mailman.31564.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The Syclone/Typhoon uses the Chevy 4.3 liter V-6, not the Buick 3.8 V-6.
The Buick is 3/4 of old 215 V-8 (stretched with a taller deck, longer
stroke, bigger bore) as you said.  The 4.3 Chevy V-6 is 3/4 of a 350 Chevy
V-8.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

<snip>
>can get pretty confusing, but basically the Buick V6 has been around since
>the early '60s and is a child of the aluminum Buick 215 cum Rover 3.5 V8.
>It has been sold in Jeeps, passenger cars in probably all of GM's
>divisions, etc. The turbo versions are available in Buick Regals (of which
>a Grand National is one), primarily, with a few going into GMC
>Syclone/Typhoon trucklets (would that make them utelets to you? :-) and
>Anniversary Edition Trans Ams. There are probably others that got the
>turbo.
>   Engine is still produced, I believe, and is available in supercharged
>form in the Pontiac Grand Prix.
>
>Now will you please explain Australia's muscle car era to me?
>
>Aaron



From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Mon Jan  4 17:53:57 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:53:57 -0500
Subject: Need H_elp with an 89 MPFI 2.8 V6 (Need MAF...)
Message-ID: <mailman.31565.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Howday

Best way to check a FM MAF is with a scope. Use a reg scope or
an ignition analyzer in the low volts position.

You should see a steady square wave which changes frequency with airflow

:peter




From ECMnut at aol.com  Mon Jan  4 18:07:45 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:07:45 -0500
Subject: GM V6
Message-ID: <mailman.31566.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/4/99 12:47:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
gderian at cybergate.net writes:

> The Syclone/Typhoon uses the Chevy 4.3 liter V-6, not the Buick 3.8 V-6.
>  The Buick is 3/4 of old 215 V-8 (stretched with a taller deck, longer
>  stroke, bigger bore) as you said.  The 4.3 Chevy V-6 is 3/4 of a 350 Chevy
>  V-8.

Gary is correct.. 4 of my friends have Turbo Buicks, and other than
the cigarete lighter, and some metric bolts, not much interchanges
with my Syclone.  Worth mentioning, is that the Buick has
stronger pistons, similar flowing ex-ports, 30-35% better intake ports,
Smoother idle and beter off-idle response (maybe due to SFI?)..
About the only thing they don't do better than the Syclone pickup is haul 
manure..  
HTH
Mike V


From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan  4 18:12:45 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:12:45 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31567.1369893288.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: steve ravet <Steve.Ravet at arm.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

Yes, but after you do the zip thing.........  He mentioned pwmeter, which is
zip,
ya fine, unzip, and I still can't see anything, other than a drop down
window.
Just for grins try something with a .asm file extension, on a windows
machine.
Some of us don't make a living with this stuff, and hit dead ends.
  Yes I do have the winzip, and that ain't the problem.  It's what comes
next......
Bruce
  Sorry but I've asked this a couple times and all I get is use winzip, and
that
has nothing to do with what I'm asking..



Depends on the file type.  For most of the files on the FTP site,

I'm not asking about most, I'm asking about pwmeter........

 you
>just select "save to disk" or something like that and tell it where to
>save it.  Netscape asks you that when it sees a file type that it
>doesn't know how to display (like .zip, .exe, others).  If you download
>and install winzip (like from www.shareware.com) it'll "register" the
>.zip extension, so the next time you click on a .zip file netscape will
>know to run winzip for it.  Same with .pdf if you install acrobat
>reader, etc.
>
>As far as reading duty cycle, couldn't you make up a circuit with an
>opamp buffer, and a resistor/capacitor to filter the signal, then read
>the voltage with a digital voltmeter?  0v=0%, 12v=100%?

Ya, I could if I wanted to study to be an EE.  So I just plug along with
a dwell meter...
  If I wanted that thou, I wouldn't ask for the other.  I'd really like to
read to at least .x, if not .xx, thou.........
>
>Or, just go buy a cheap analog voltmeter with a needle.  It's reading
>will vary from 0-12 depending on duty cycle.
>
>--steve
>
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> I have some time ago posted a file to the ftp site in the incoming
>> directory.The name of the file is pwmeter.zip
>>
>> It  measures the on time of the injector in milliseconds to 0.1 ms
>> resolution if I remember correctly.Resolution could be increased.
>>
>> If somebody is willing to give me some idea or specification or an
>> example of what needs to be measured, I could change the code to do
>> this.
>> Is this referenced to rpm or is it just the on versus off time
>> of the injector.
>>
>> Regards
>> Georg
>> Georg Lerm
>> Chief Technician
>> Clinical Engineering
>> Red Cross Hospital
>> Cape Town
>> South Africa
>> Tel. +27 21 658-5120
>> Fax. +27 21 658-5120
>



From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Mon Jan  4 18:35:29 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:35:29 -0500
Subject: Turbo header tuning
Message-ID: <mailman.31568.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  Clive, have thought that pre-turbo tuning would help but everyone I have spoken to has claimed minimal benefits.  Would really like to hear more on the subject. 

At 11:03 AM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> 
>> Header tuning is done to help scavenge the cylinder and ensure a clean fresh
>> charge.  Turbo charging does the same thing by increasing the pressure at
>> the intake side.  The turbine on the exhaust side represents a restriction.
>> If it didn't the turbine wouldn't turn!  As such, no tuning of the exhaust
>> is going to help move the gases through the pipes any faster or better.  You
>> could make the turbine less restrictive but this is tuning the turbo to
>> higher rpms with more lag time on the bottom end.
>
>totally wrong
>because turbo exhausts are operating under higher pressures
>they are even more responsive to exhaust tuning than NA cars
>properly designed headers befroe a turbo cna make massive power gains
>
>Clive 
>
>


From rauscher at icst.com  Mon Jan  4 18:36:56 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:36:56 -0500
Subject: I'm back
Message-ID: <mailman.31569.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Wow, I go away for a few weeks, and look at this:

    Water injection
    PWM fuel pumps

    and
    
    My favorite: blowing up Buick engines (wish I was there).


Not only that, but I've not even caught up yet.

To the AZTY question guy, Sorry 'about not answering, but
I hope that Bruce summed it up well enough.


Now, on to what I've been doing. What, with the holidays
and all, had a little free time.

Have a working Bi-Phase stepper motor controller circuit
up and running. I'll be writing this up and putting it
into the 'incoming' area. (Oh, this is for control of GM
IAC's) Uses four chips, TTL/CMOS, real simple. Run/single
step, forward/reverse, and variable speed.


Also have a better write-up on how to modify GM TBI fuel
pressure regulators. I've modified one, so I figured I'd
do a write-up on it. Most likely will help out someone in
the future (if anything, after reading this, they may opt
out and just buy one).


About the PWM fuel pumps. If anyone's interested I have a 
circuit that I've used to control R/C electric motors and
I also used it for a HO model train engine controller.

I'll see if I can find it. The actual PWM creation circuit is
simple, just a comparator and some resistors and a capacitor.
Use this to drive whatever transistor, MOSFET, IGBT is suited
to cranking on the volts to the fuel pump.



BobR.

I guess you could say I've had a cone shaped hat on for a bit...
(had to remove it whence welding on the Wife's Buick, interfered
with the helmet).

--







From realsquash at yahoo.com  Mon Jan  4 18:41:19 1999
From: realsquash at yahoo.com (andy quaas)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:41:19 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31570.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

accel makes one.  Its expensive, but they make one.

Andy


---EFISYSTEMS at aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/2/99 9:05:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mpilkent at ptw.com
> writes:
> 
> << Subj:	 Re: fuel pumps
>  Date:	1/2/99 9:05:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
>  From:	mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton)
>  Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>  Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>  To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>  
>  All this talk on fuel pumps brings up a question I have had.  Where
can I
>  find an aftermarket fuel pump for FI.  All the ones I have seen are
for
>  carb. engines.  I need one that puts out about 50 psi for the 3.1L
V6 motor
>  and can be mounted outside the tank.
>  
>  Mike
>  (3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion)
>   >>
> Mallory 4060 FI   (good for approx 300hp)  or if your really making
some power
> use a 5110 FI (good for approx 1150 hp)...usually $135 and $250
> respectively.......
> -Carl Summers
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From clive at problem.tantech.com  Mon Jan  4 19:11:47 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:11:47 -0500
Subject: Turbo header tuning
Message-ID: <mailman.31571.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
>   Clive, have thought that pre-turbo tuning would help but everyone I have spoken to has claimed minimal benefits.  Would really like to hear more on the subject. 


read Hugh McInnes book on turbos
he recommends full header systems for turbo engines

Clive 
> 
> >> Header tuning is done to help scavenge the cylinder and ensure a clean fresh
> >> charge.  Turbo charging does the same thing by increasing the pressure at
> >> the intake side.  The turbine on the exhaust side represents a restriction.
> >> If it didn't the turbine wouldn't turn!  As such, no tuning of the exhaust
> >> is going to help move the gases through the pipes any faster or better.  You
> >> could make the turbine less restrictive but this is tuning the turbo to
> >> higher rpms with more lag time on the bottom end.
> >
> >totally wrong
> >because turbo exhausts are operating under higher pressures
> >they are even more responsive to exhaust tuning than NA cars
> >properly designed headers befroe a turbo cna make massive power gains
> >


From thergen at svn.net  Mon Jan  4 19:43:21 1999
From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:43:21 -0500
Subject: Need H_elp with an 89 MPFI 2.8 V6 (Need MAF...)
Message-ID: <mailman.31572.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I had a 2.8 with a bad MAF.  Rapping on the MAF with a screw driver (don't
smash it) would cause the car to stumble at idle.  I think the car had
about 20k miles on it at the time.

With a bad MAF, I found drivability was acceptable (not great) if I simply
disconnected the MAF.  There was a MAP only prom available (search the
TSBs) for my application that could be used instead of replacing a bad
MAF. 

At 115k miles, the alternator went bad (I think the six year old battery
contributed to its death).  It was the 100 amp model.  The diode bridge
was partially visible (remove plastic cover off back of alternator case)
and the diode's package looked blistered from heat.  It ran very hot
compared to the replacement unit.

Silicone may not have been the best choice for sealing the [air] temp
sensor.  The O2 sensor may be affected.  Anyone have comments on this?

The same vehicle could also develope an unstable idle after highway
driving while sitting at a stop light for an extended period.  It turns
out the O2 sensor was lazy, but no trouble codes were set.  Replacing the
O2 sensor fixed the problem.

Chicago huh?  Is your S10 4wd? I felt fortunate to get a plane out of
there after the holidays before the snow hit.

hth,
Tom


On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Kurek, Larry wrote:

> Guys:
> 
> I am having a slight problem with the 2.8 MPFI motor I put in my S10 in
> place of the old carb motor with the hole in the side of the block :)
> 
> I was driving home last night and it started cuting out at anything between
> off idle to about half throttle...kind of like it was running out of gas,
> but it wasn't since I JUST filled up the tank. The fuel pump is new, and is
> getting great pressure, so I don't think it is a fuel problem. However...the
> motor seemed to fix itself and run great again. No SES light either. Once I
> got home, I decided to check the obvious....coil connectors, wires, etc
> etc...all seemed fine. However, after a quick test drive, I popped the hood
> and it almost died out on me.. came back, and set an SES light...code 34,
> low MAF reading. So, I backprobed the MAF connector and all was OK, I
> checked for any loose connections and didn't see any either, so i reset the
> ECM and it seemed OK. Well, on the drive to work this morning, same damn
> thing. Again, a code 34. One of the causes for this code is a leak between
> the MAF and the throttle body. I checked this as well, and the only thing
> that MAY be a problem, is the temperature sensor bung I siliconed into the
> elbow. The silicone looks to have pulled back just a bit and there may be a
> SLIGHT opening into the elbow. Could this be enough to cause a problem? I
> can't emphasize enough how small of a leak this may be. Are these MAF
> sensors that sensitive? FWIW, I am also running an open element K&N filter,
> and it has recently gotten quite cold here (Chicago area). 
> 
> Sooo....any ideas?  How do I go about testing the MAF itself? Like I
> mentioned above...the connector checks out fine with +B, ground, and +5v. 
> 
> Does anyone have a spare MAF that they would be willing to part with? This
> is a three wire MAF out of an 89 Camaro 2.8 V6. It isn't the hot wire
> variety, but seems to use a thermistor instead?
> 
> Finally, I did note that the lights on the car dim on occasion for a few
> seconds at a time. Could this be a bad alternator? Could this cause the
> problems with the MAF? I'm stretching here guys...I don't want to get
> stranded in sub-zero temperatures in the middle of nowhere...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> Larry
> 



From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan  4 20:12:06 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:12:06 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31573.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>
>> Header tuning is done to help scavenge the cylinder and ensure a clean fresh
>> charge.  Turbo charging does the same thing by increasing the pressure at
>> the intake side.  The turbine on the exhaust side represents a restriction.
>> If it didn't the turbine wouldn't turn!  As such, no tuning of the exhaust
>> is going to help move the gases through the pipes any faster or better.  You
>> could make the turbine less restrictive but this is tuning the turbo to
>> higher rpms with more lag time on the bottom end.
>
>totally wrong
>because turbo exhausts are operating under higher pressures
>they are even more responsive to exhaust tuning than NA cars
>properly designed headers befroe a turbo cna make massive power gains
>
>Clive

OK--time for my $.02!!

Clive is absolutely right. I am becoming convinced as time goes by that
tube volume is the essential factor in the design of ANY header--it appears
to me that it wants to be about 125--140% of individual cylinder
displacement. Larger diameter, and shorter for higher rev ranges, smaller
diameter and longer for lower rev ranges, but always in the stated volume
range. MAYBE slightly larger diameter for headers on a turbo, cuz the gas
in them is denser, and therefore suffers more friction loss in flowing
through a given tube size. Sound velocity in a gas (of a given molecular
weight) varies ONLY with temperature, so tubes for a turbo motor may also
want to be a bit LONGER, cuz they are HOTTER.

The tricky part with turbo headers is that any turbine, at a given mass
flow rate, will make the same power at a lower pressure ratio if the inlet
temp to it is HIGHER. And, since the outlet pressure of the turbine is
predetermined by the atmosphere and the exhaust system, lower inlet temps
to the turbo mean more back-pressure on the engine, and therefore less net
output at the same boost level. Therefore, to make turbo headers work
properly, and to really see HOW MUCH GOOD they REALLY do for an engine's
performance, you DAMN WELL HAVE TO insulate them--(we all know how much
heat tube headers throw off!!) And , if you are going to insulate the
exhaust on a turbo motor, it had damn well better either be cast out of
duriron (very high nickel cast iron) or fabricated properly (spelled TIG
welding done with a full internal argon purge) out of 321 and/or 347
stainless steel. (If you want it to last for any length of time.)

I do not think that any of us think that Hooker fabricates their headers at
this level of technology. (And I kinda doubt that they have anybody who
would have a clue where to start!) The fact that headers made the right way
out of 321 SS work, and with extremely high reliability, has been well
proven on huge radials by people like Curtiss-Wright and Pratt & Whitney.
If you do not have the resources to do it yourself, Burns Stainless, for
one, can do whatever you might want, the right way, in 321 SS, or is quite
happy to sell you the bits and pieces with which to do it yourself. BUT, it
AIN"T cheap, even just to purchase the materials!!!

Now for the more sophisticated stuff. First of all, any turbine runs more
efficiently with a STEADY inlet pressure. Any engine runs more efficiently
with tube headers--turboed or not. How to reconcile these two things?? It
is known as a pressure recovery accumulator. If you have room, (a mighty
big if) run the header tubes into a typical, properly sized
convergent-divergent collector, and THEN  run the megaphone from the
collector into an accumulator chamber which feeds the gas to the turbine,
at a fairly steady pressure. This pressure will also be distinctly higher
than the pressure which the engine "sees" at the throuat of the collector
(you are now converting the velocity energy in the exhaust gasses back into
static pressure with a reasonable degree of efficiency!)

The next place where there is a LOT of unexplored potential (and less need
for room to explore it) is at the outlet of the turbine. The gas comes out
of the turbine in a tight spiral at a velocity of about Mach .75 in most
cases. Most downpipe designs just dump it into a way bigger pipe, creating
a jump to lower velocity, turbulent flow, an extremely inefficient process.
There is a lot of room for creative thinking in fabricating a downpipe
transition piece which would convert some of this (very significant amount
of) velocity  energy in the gasses back into static pressure as the gas
enters the downpipe! Why would this help?? cuz the turbine would now "see"
a static pressure at its outlet which might even be below the atmospheric
pressure at the end  of the tailpipe!! And because , at given temperature
and mass flow conditions, turbines make power depending on the absolute
pressure ratio across them, you would get the same turbine power output
with less backpressure on the engine, and, therefore, more power for free.
YES, you would need a bigger turbine wheel and housing, cuz the DENSITY of
the gas flowing through the turbine would be lower at the now lower
pressures even though the mass flow would be the same.

Regards, Greg




From gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu  Mon Jan  4 20:46:01 1999
From: gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu (Gregory A. Parmer)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:46:01 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: EFI software]
Message-ID: <mailman.31574.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Steve Ravet wrote:
> Didn't someone upload the fit.zip file that went with the injector
> flowbench article from PE magazine?  I thought so, but I can't find it. 
> Anyway, if someone has it, or knows where it is on the FTP site, please
> let me know so I can help this person, and add a link in the FTP site
> index.  thanks

I had been looking for it, then someone else posted it. Grab it
from "ftp://ftp.acesag.auburn.edu/pub/users/gparmer". Included are
"fit.zip" and "fitphoto.zip". I think fitphoto may be software
John (?) used to take pictures for the magazine.

Happy Testing,
-greg



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Mon Jan  4 20:51:01 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:51:01 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31575.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: steve ravet <Steve.Ravet at arm.com>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 12:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor
> 
> Yes, but after you do the zip thing.........  He mentioned pwmeter, which is
> zip,
> ya fine, unzip, and I still can't see anything, other than a drop down
> window.
> Just for grins try something with a .asm file extension, on a windows
> machine.
> Some of us don't make a living with this stuff, and hit dead ends.
>   Yes I do have the winzip, and that ain't the problem.  It's what comes
> next......

OK.  In the case of pwmeter, you get these files:

 PWMETER.C
 AT892051.H
 PWMETER.HEX
 PWMETER.PS
 PWMETER.S01
 PWMETER.TXT


pwmeter.txt is a document that tells you what everything else is

pwmeter.c is a C program, along with at892051.h.  You need a C compiler
to use these, and it needs to be specific to the device that you are
going to put the program into (looks like an Atmel microcontroller,
similar to PIC).

pwmeter.hex is a hex file.  That's the end result of compiling the C
program, and the .hex file is ready to be read into a device programmer.

pwmeter.ps is a postscript file, can be read by the program
"ghostscript" or can be sent straight to a postscript printer.  Most
likely a schematic.  

pwmeter.s01 is a schematic that could be read by Tango schematic
software, if you had it.  Since you probably don't, just print out the
postscript file instead.

With that said, the pwmeter.txt is skimpy on details.  How exactly does
this thing tell you what the pulse width is?  I don't have ghostscript
installed so I can't read the .ps file.  Georg, got any more details?

--steve


From rauscher at icst.com  Mon Jan  4 21:07:00 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:07:00 -0500
Subject: IAC controller circuit
Message-ID: <mailman.31576.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>




OK, finally got it together. I finished the schematics and
the write-up on the stepper motor control circuit. It's all
been uploaded to the 'incoming' site.

Files:

Stepdrv.txt         The what/how/why and where.
StepDrv1.gif        Image, page 1 of schematics
StepDrv2.gif        Image, page 2 of schematics


Now, before anybody jumps up and down about the hand
drawn schematics, well, I'm a software guy. I almost
had to use a crayon ;) {the sharpest nearby items are
the corners on my keyboard}.

The purpose of this circuit/project is to be able to
control the IAC by itself. That is, you can extend or
retract the pintle at will. This is a stand-alone
controller.

Have fun, any questions, I'll be here for awhile. (At
least 'til next vacation/holiday).


BobR.

Who put silly-putty on the point of his cone shaped
hat 'lest I cut myself.


--




From gderian at cybergate.net  Mon Jan  4 21:07:00 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:07:00 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31577.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Good info, Greg.  One question, though.  Wouldn't the sound energy in the
exhaust from a tuned system direct more energy to the exhaust turbine?
Turbines may like to have a steady flow but shouldn't additional energy
help?  I thought that was the idea behind dual scroll exhaust housings.  A
megaphone would convert velocity into pressure but the exhaust ultimately
has to speed up again (and drop pressure) to flow through the exhaust
housing.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>snip<
>Now for the more sophisticated stuff. First of all, any turbine runs more
>efficiently with a STEADY inlet pressure. Any engine runs more efficiently
>with tube headers--turboed or not. How to reconcile these two things?? It
>is known as a pressure recovery accumulator. If you have room, (a mighty
>big if) run the header tubes into a typical, properly sized
>convergent-divergent collector, and THEN  run the megaphone from the
>collector into an accumulator chamber which feeds the gas to the turbine,
>at a fairly steady pressure. This pressure will also be distinctly higher
>than the pressure which the engine "sees" at the throuat of the collector
>(you are now converting the velocity energy in the exhaust gasses back into
>static pressure with a reasonable degree of efficiency!)
>
>Regards, Greg
>



From calley at ionet.net  Mon Jan  4 21:28:50 1999
From: calley at ionet.net (HP User)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:28:50 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: EFI software]
Message-ID: <mailman.31578.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks Greg and Steve,  I have it now and will look it over to see if it
may help me. Thankyou again. Randy
  

----------
> From: Gregory A. Parmer <gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Cc: Steve Ravet <steve.ravet at arm.com>; calley at ionet.net
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: EFI software]
> Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 12:45 PM
> 
> 
> On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Steve Ravet wrote:
> > Didn't someone upload the fit.zip file that went with the injector
> > flowbench article from PE magazine?  I thought so, but I can't find it.

> > Anyway, if someone has it, or knows where it is on the FTP site, please
> > let me know so I can help this person, and add a link in the FTP site
> > index.  thanks
> 
> I had been looking for it, then someone else posted it. Grab it
> from "ftp://ftp.acesag.auburn.edu/pub/users/gparmer". Included are
> "fit.zip" and "fitphoto.zip". I think fitphoto may be software
> John (?) used to take pictures for the magazine.
> 
> Happy Testing,
> -greg
> 


From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan  4 22:01:22 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:01:22 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31579.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: steve ravet <Steve.Ravet at arm.com>
To: diy_efi <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

So it's still a matter of having the secret decoder ring to be able to use
it.
Bruce


>
> PWMETER.C
> AT892051.H
> PWMETER.HEX
> PWMETER.PS
> PWMETER.S01
> PWMETER.TXT
>
>
>pwmeter.txt is a document that tells you what everything else is
>
>pwmeter.c is a C program, along with at892051.h.  You need a C compiler
>to use these, and it needs to be specific to the device that you are
>going to put the program into (looks like an Atmel microcontroller,
>similar to PIC).
>
>pwmeter.hex is a hex file.  That's the end result of compiling the C
>program, and the .hex file is ready to be read into a device programmer.
>
>pwmeter.ps is a postscript file, can be read by the program
>"ghostscript" or can be sent straight to a postscript printer.  Most
>likely a schematic.
>
>pwmeter.s01 is a schematic that could be read by Tango schematic
>software, if you had it.  Since you probably don't, just print out the
>postscript file instead.
>
>With that said, the pwmeter.txt is skimpy on details.  How exactly does
>this thing tell you what the pulse width is?  I don't have ghostscript
>installed so I can't read the .ps file.  Georg, got any more details?
>
>--steve
>



From mitcho at netcom.com  Mon Jan  4 22:25:27 1999
From: mitcho at netcom.com (mitcho)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:25:27 -0500
Subject: 92 Corvette LT-1
Message-ID: <mailman.31580.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 02:19 PM 1/3/99 -0600, Steve Ravet wrote:

>Also, you may want to look at the TPI/TBI engine swapping manual from
>Jags that run (www.jagsthatrun.com)  It's aimed at putting EFI engines
>into older non-EFI cars but it has some good words on wiring.

The "Chevrolet TPI & TBI Engine Swapping" book advertised at Steve Smith
Autosports (http://www.ssapubl.com/prod06a.html) Jerry is talking about
*is* the manual mentioned above by Mike Knell of Jags That Run.  It is also
available from Summit and no doubt other folks.

It is an excellent book for someone who has never done this sort of thing
before.  My own plans include fuel injection for a variety of sixties V8
Chevrolets as well as a basic V8 conversion of a Jaguar XJ-6 Series I.

At the risk of making him hate me, I'll mention that Mike Knell's email
address is available at the JTR Webpage, and he does personally answer his
email.  For all I know he's a member of this mailing list.


Mitch

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitch Barrie's Chevelles:  http://www.employees.org/~ozyman/carstuff
Southern California Chevelle Caminos: http://www.chevelles.net/scccc



From gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu  Mon Jan  4 22:51:39 1999
From: gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu (Gregory A. Parmer)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:51:39 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31581.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Khoo Teck-Khoon wrote:
> I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am 
> interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the 
> air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with 

For a relative sort of deal, see 
http://sura1.jlab.org/~bowling/fieye.html
It is a *very* simple idea.

For more accurate results, an analog voltmeter connected to the
ECM side of the injector should give reasonable data...as in 12v=0% 
duty cycle, 0v=100% duty cycle.

-greg



From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Mon Jan  4 22:53:31 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:53:31 -0500
Subject: IAC controller circuit
Message-ID: <mailman.31582.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  Wonderful!  But, how do I access the 'incoming' site?

At 04:03 PM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>
>OK, finally got it together. I finished the schematics and
>the write-up on the stepper motor control circuit. It's all
>been uploaded to the 'incoming' site.
>
>Files:
>
>Stepdrv.txt         The what/how/why and where.
>StepDrv1.gif        Image, page 1 of schematics
>StepDrv2.gif        Image, page 2 of schematics
>
>
>Now, before anybody jumps up and down about the hand
>drawn schematics, well, I'm a software guy. I almost
>had to use a crayon ;) {the sharpest nearby items are
>the corners on my keyboard}.
>
>The purpose of this circuit/project is to be able to
>control the IAC by itself. That is, you can extend or
>retract the pintle at will. This is a stand-alone
>controller.
>
>Have fun, any questions, I'll be here for awhile. (At
>least 'til next vacation/holiday).
>
>
>BobR.
>
>Who put silly-putty on the point of his cone shaped
>hat 'lest I cut myself.
>
>
>--
>
>
>


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Mon Jan  4 23:09:04 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:09:04 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31583.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>http://sura1.jlab.org/~bowling/fieye.html
>It is a *very* simple idea.

Very simple idea, however I'd buffer the LED using a CMOS 4049 inverter or
possibly a 4011 quad nand wired as an inverter, as it accomplishes the same
thing, but doesn't allow the LED to draw ANY current off the injector.
Prolly wouldn't make a difference, but why waste current :)

Just a thought.

As far as using a meter, obviously an analog meter would be better, as the
response to things would be slower than a digital, even though digital
meters display every 1/4 or 1/8 of a second.  Just something about a needle
that I still like :)


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan  4 23:28:16 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:28:16 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31584.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Gary Derian wrote---

Wouldn't the sound energy in the exhaust from a tuned system direct more
energy to the exhaust turbine?
>Turbines may like to have a steady flow but shouldn't additional energy
>help?

Additional energy is always good--I think the real question here is how
good you can make your convergent-divergent collector nozzle and how good
you  can make the convergent nozzle from the accumulator to the turbine--if
the gain in turbine efficiency from having a steady feed pressure and
velocity exceeds the nozzle losses, you will have won, if not, converging
the collector directly into the turbine nozzle might well do better.

Somehow, I think that building some stuff, and instrumenting it properly,
and testing it would be a whole lot easier than trying to do the calcs!!!

 I thought that was the idea behind dual scroll exhaust housings.

It kind of is, but I think the idea of the split housings is even more to
prevent interference between exhaust pulses from adjacent cylinders in the
firing order as they are fed into the turbine nozzle(s).

A megaphone would convert velocity into pressure but the exhaust ultimately
>has to speed up again (and drop pressure) to flow through the exhaust
>housing.

It sure does--but what calcs I HAVE done indicate that the gas velocity
coming out of the turbine feed nozzle(s) needs to about match the velocity
of the tips of the turbine blades for decent turbine efficiency to
happen--this velocity is again about Mach .75  AVERAGE in a typical case.
Get too much pulsation at this point, and you will begin to get Mach 1
(choked) flow--ain't no more gas gonna go through the nozzle--so things
will get seriously constipated during part of the pulse, and screw up the
header tuning. At Mach .75, it wouldn't really take much pulsation at all
to produce an increase in back pressure, either, even if you are not
pulsing it strongly enough to choke it.

Which is kinda why I think smoothing the flow out might be a net win, even
though there are losses through two more nozzles to make up for.

DO NOT misunderstand me, these wanderings are theoretical conjecture at
best--if I shut up and build something, test it, and it proves out, then I
would (and will!) be more forceful about it!
>
Regards, Greg




From wsherwin at idirect.com  Mon Jan  4 23:37:25 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:37:25 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31585.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Another thought..............how about an old "surplus" oscilloscope hooked
up to the injector circuit.  This would provide a pretty good
visual/graphical representation of duty cycle and phasing?

Various companies also manufacture "plug-n-play" notebook oriented
automotive oscilloscope modules.

Have fun;
Walt.



-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory A. Parmer <gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor


>
>On Sun, 3 Jan 1999, Khoo Teck-Khoon wrote:
>> I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am
>> interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the
>> air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with
>
>For a relative sort of deal, see
>http://sura1.jlab.org/~bowling/fieye.html
>It is a *very* simple idea.
>
>For more accurate results, an analog voltmeter connected to the
>ECM side of the injector should give reasonable data...as in 12v=0%
>duty cycle, 0v=100% duty cycle.
>
>-greg
>



From wayneb at foxboro.com.au  Tue Jan  5 00:01:31 1999
From: wayneb at foxboro.com.au (Wayne Blair)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:01:31 -0500
Subject: 460 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.31586.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Could any of you send me a picture/image (or link to) of any factory (or
after market) EFI Intakes for 460/429 engines.

thanks



<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< bye >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
wayne
[Brisbane Australia]


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Tue Jan  5 00:13:07 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:13:07 -0500
Subject: IAC controller circuit
Message-ID: <mailman.31587.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming

Clarence Wood wrote:
> 
>   Wonderful!  But, how do I access the 'incoming' site?
> 
> At 04:03 PM 1/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >OK, finally got it together. I finished the schematics and
> >the write-up on the stepper motor control circuit. It's all
> >been uploaded to the 'incoming' site.
> >
> >Files:
> >
> >Stepdrv.txt         The what/how/why and where.
> >StepDrv1.gif        Image, page 1 of schematics
> >StepDrv2.gif        Image, page 2 of schematics
> >
> >
> >Now, before anybody jumps up and down about the hand
> >drawn schematics, well, I'm a software guy. I almost
> >had to use a crayon ;) {the sharpest nearby items are
> >the corners on my keyboard}.
> >
> >The purpose of this circuit/project is to be able to
> >control the IAC by itself. That is, you can extend or
> >retract the pintle at will. This is a stand-alone
> >controller.
> >
> >Have fun, any questions, I'll be here for awhile. (At
> >least 'til next vacation/holiday).
> >
> >
> >BobR.
> >
> >Who put silly-putty on the point of his cone shaped
> >hat 'lest I cut myself.
> >
> >
> >--
> >
> >
> >


From tkkhoo at hotmail.com  Tue Jan  5 00:53:24 1999
From: tkkhoo at hotmail.com (Khoo Teck-Khoon)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:53:24 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31588.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:51:37 -0600 (CST)
>From: "Gregory A. Parmer" <gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor
>
>
>For a relative sort of deal, see 
>http://sura1.jlab.org/~bowling/fieye.html
>It is a *very* simple idea.
>
>For more accurate results, an analog voltmeter connected to the
>ECM side of the injector should give reasonable data...as in 12v=0% 
>duty cycle, 0v=100% duty cycle.
>
>-greg
>

I've seen the diagram and still confused somewhat. Anyway, is it 
possible to wire a LED to the ECU side of the injector wire and just 
look at the amount of time the LED is lighted. Perhaps, a continuous on 
would indicate 100% injector duty or is it the other way? Would this 
load the circuit to the injectors as I only know the pin for injector 
no. 1 on the ECU?

Regards

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan  5 01:05:08 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:05:08 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31589.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi again--

One more thing about insulating headers--

Already said the headers need to be made out of 321 SS if you are gonna
insulate them and want them to live for any length of time.

Another aspect of this is that once you have insulated the header tubes,
obviously, they will get hotter, and therefore experience a bunch more heat
expansion than uninsulated header tubes do. And stainless has a somewhat
higher coefficient of expansion than plain carbon steel, so you will be
fighting a double whammy with insulated 321 SS headers in terms of tube
growth from cold engine to fully hot, sustained WOT header tube operating
conditions.

Specifically, you had better allow for about .080" of growth in length per
foot of tube length. If you do not allow for it, this is MORE than enough
growth to cause things to disassemble themselves!!! (NASTY ways of doing
it, too, like breaking bolts off at the head, breaking flanges off of the
head, breaking turbine housings, breaking turbo mounting brackets, etc.!!
The 321 SS is tough, stiff, and strong enough at high temps, even in only
16 or 18 gauge thickness, to vent its wrath at captivity on almost anything
else foolish enough to be in its way!!

Also, cuz of the differential in thermal expansion between stainless and
plain steel and/or iron, the older boys have told me that the best plan is
to fab the header flanges out of carbon steel (min. 3/8" thick, I would be
inclined more toward 7/16" or 1/2"). They have also told me that the wire
of choice for welding the 321 SS tubing to the carbon flanges is 308 SS.
(347 wire for welding 321 tube to 321 tube.) These same older boys did not
mention what to use for header flanges meant to mate with them thar
new-fangled aluminium heads----

Now, as for the expansion joints that you are almost bound to need to make
the fool things work without breakin' sumthin':

Any creative thoughts on this subject are more than welcome!

Best idea I have come up with, so far, is to use a regular tube into the
second tube swedged larger slip joint, just like on stock exhaust pipe
joints--but no clamp, and be sure that the inner tube sticking into the
swedged part of the other tube is NOT QUITE bottomed  (1/8" clear end
play??) in the final assembly position.  Then weld a rolled bellows looking
device on over the outside of the slip joint to seal it. Such bellows are
available (IN 321 SS!!) in  an innumerable variety of appropriate sizes and
thicknesses (and with plain tube ends) from, for one,  an outfit by the
name of Hyspan.

This is all obviously a LOT of effort to get more out of a motor, but
hey--why do we spend our time here if not for just that reason???

Regards, Greg




From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Tue Jan  5 01:23:36 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:23:36 -0500
Subject: Need H_elp with an 89 MPFI 2.8 V6 (Need MAF...)
Message-ID: <mailman.31590.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

You maybe experiencing throttle blade icing. If the problem reoccurs remove 
the air filter and check for ice buildup. In the winter it's usually a good 
idea to run the stock air cleaner with the hot air pipe going to the 
exhaust manifold.

----------
From: 	Kurek, Larry[SMTP:lkurek at anl.gov]
Sent: 	January 4, 1999 9:08 AM
To: 	'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'
Subject: 	Need H_elp with an 89 MPFI 2.8 V6 (Need MAF...)

Guys:

I am having a slight problem with the 2.8 MPFI motor I put in my S10 in
place of the old carb motor with the hole in the side of the block :)

I was driving home last night and it started cuting out at anything between
off idle to about half throttle...kind of like it was running out of gas,
but it wasn't since I JUST filled up the tank. The fuel pump is new, and is
getting great pressure, so I don't think it is a fuel problem. 
However...the
motor seemed to fix itself and run great again. No SES light either. Once I
got home, I decided to check the obvious....coil connectors, wires, etc
etc...all seemed fine. However, after a quick test drive, I popped the hood
and it almost died out on me.. came back, and set an SES light...code 34,
low MAF reading. So, I backprobed the MAF connector and all was OK, I
checked for any loose connections and didn't see any either, so i reset the
ECM and it seemed OK. Well, on the drive to work this morning, same damn
thing. Again, a code 34. One of the causes for this code is a leak between
the MAF and the throttle body. I checked this as well, and the only thing
that MAY be a problem, is the temperature sensor bung I siliconed into the
elbow. The silicone looks to have pulled back just a bit and there may be a
SLIGHT opening into the elbow. Could this be enough to cause a problem? I
can't emphasize enough how small of a leak this may be. Are these MAF
sensors that sensitive? FWIW, I am also running an open element K&N filter,
and it has recently gotten quite cold here (Chicago area).

Sooo....any ideas?  How do I go about testing the MAF itself? Like I
mentioned above...the connector checks out fine with +B, ground, and +5v.

Does anyone have a spare MAF that they would be willing to part with? This
is a three wire MAF out of an 89 Camaro 2.8 V6. It isn't the hot wire
variety, but seems to use a thermistor instead?

Finally, I did note that the lights on the car dim on occasion for a few
seconds at a time. Could this be a bad alternator? Could this cause the
problems with the MAF? I'm stretching here guys...I don't want to get
stranded in sub-zero temperatures in the middle of nowhere...

Thanks!


Larry



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`
end



From christianh at edmi.com.au  Tue Jan  5 01:47:35 1999
From: christianh at edmi.com.au (Christian Hack)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:47:35 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31591.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

For those who can't view the pwmeter.ps file i've put a GIF of the
schematic in /incoming for everyone

ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/pwmeter.gif

It's pretty big though. If that still causes probs let me know and I'll
try some other tricks. The main problem is that it will difficult to read the text
if I decrease the resolution too much. A decent GIF viewer should let you scale
and view it yourself.

Christian Hack
christianh at edmi.com.au
EDMI Pty Ltd
Ph : (07) 3888 3066
FAX : (07) 3888 3583




From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Tue Jan  5 02:07:27 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:07:27 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31592.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:05:28 -0500 "Gary Derian" <gderian at cybergate.net>
writes:
>I think we agree about flywheel effects.  My point is that a heavy
flywheel
>will smooth out engine torque variation when the clutch is engaged but
can
>increase shock loads when starting out, a two edged sword.  My 
>preference is
>to have as light a flywheel as I can stand for driveability.
>
>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

An engine with more cylinders will have a smoother output torque.  V8s
tend to be smooth.  V12s are even smoother (though I have to admit that I
don't know this by experience - yet).

Ray

___________________________________________________________________
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From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Tue Jan  5 02:08:42 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:08:42 -0500
Subject: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31593.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Because an LCD panel does not consitute a legal number plate. If you get
>pulled over for anything, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to work out
>something funny is happening. I very much doubt an LCD panel showing the
>numbers would be convincing. Also the welding mask LCD panels turn
opaque 
>entirely. You would need to obtain an LCD panel that has individual
>sections in it to make up the differnet numbers and letters. 
>In Australia you are allowed to have clear plastic number plate covers,
>hence an LCD panel can be made to look like one of those.
>
>Cheers, Mos.

How clear does it have to be?  Could it be designed similar to a HUD, or
perhaps have diffraction grating etched in?  It would be close to
invisible to the naked eye.

Better yet, how about etching or molding a very small corner reflector
pattern into the side closest to the plate?  This would cause a glare to
be reflected back at any strong light source (flash).

Standard reflectors, such as you see on bicycles, next to the freeway,
and on the back of cars use a corner reflector pattern.  That's what the
triangular pyramid pattern is for.

Totally passive - how's that for elegant?


Ray Drouillard

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From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Tue Jan  5 02:08:46 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:08:46 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31594.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>AWD is really great for low traction conditions and year-round driving.
>Rear wheel drive with a mid engine and sticky tires should be nearly as
good
>on dry pavement with way less complexity.  How and where do you drive?

If that's the case, why does the Lambroghini use AWD?

AWD is useful when traction is a problem.  This could mean moderate
speeds with a slippery surface, or high speeds and lateral acceleration
on a sticky surface.  It's just another way to have a bigger performance
envelope to push.

The main advantage of a mid engine is that the mass is near the center of
rotation when the vehicle is going around a corner.  This makes it more
maneuverable.  It also makes it easier to spin out.  Performance comes
with a price :)

Yes, it helps the designer achieve 50/50 weight distribution, but there
are other ways of doing it.  The Corvette engineers did it by putting the
engine in the front and the transmission in the back.

Another advantage of AWD is that all four wheels are pulling right from
the start.  With a 50/50 weight distribution, you will have twice the
ability to apply force to the pavement from a dead stop.  I know that
accelerating adds down force to the back wheels and removes it from the
front wheels, but AWD allows a forward force equal to the weight of the
car * the coefficient of friction, rather than some fraction of the
weight * the CF.

I know that dragsters are RWD, but that is a specialized application. 
Typically, the front wheels bear very little weight or lift right off the
ground.  Also, some of the acceleration force is used to add downward
force to the rear wheels.  Draw a vector diagram sometime if you have a
hard time imagining this :)

___________________________________________________________________
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From JemisonR at tce.com  Tue Jan  5 02:25:45 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:25:45 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31595.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thank you, thank you!

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Christian Hack [SMTP:christianh at edmi.com.au]
> Sent:	Monday, January 04, 1999 8:50 PM
> To:	'diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu'
> Subject:	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
> 
> For those who can't view the pwmeter.ps file i've put a GIF of the
> schematic in /incoming for everyone
> 
> ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/pwmeter.gif
> 
> It's pretty big though. If that still causes probs let me know and I'll
> try some other tricks. The main problem is that it will difficult to read
> the text
> if I decrease the resolution too much. A decent GIF viewer should let you
> scale
> and view it yourself.
> 
> Christian Hack
> christianh at edmi.com.au
> EDMI Pty Ltd
> Ph : (07) 3888 3066
> FAX : (07) 3888 3583
> 


From djwest at subcorp.com.au  Tue Jan  5 02:37:36 1999
From: djwest at subcorp.com.au (West, David)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:37:36 -0500
Subject: Old Thread - pulse width
Message-ID: <mailman.31596.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello all and happy new year.

To all the people that had input on the pulse width and broken turbo 
discussion - thanks.

I finally fixed the car - out of the old 4 cylinder and back into the 
turbo - wahooo

I found the problem to be a faulty hot wire flow meter.

Unfortunately, I tested the flow meter on the bench and it was within 
GM Spec at the start of the investigation. This is also why the ECCM 
didn't flag it as a problem.

When I re-visited the flow meter, after checking everything else under 
the sun,  I found the dynamic spec (using vacuum cleaner) to be within 
spec but on the upper limit.

I then sourced a new meter and it fixed the problem after clearing a 
shit load of fuel out of the exhaust system.

I suppose the moral of this story is:

'Just because a component is within spec doesn't mean that it works 
correctly.'

Bye for now

David West








From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan  5 02:53:25 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:53:25 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31597.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Hack <christianh at edmi.com.au>
To: 'diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

I really must be losing it, I can't find it.  If someone sees it please send
it to me,
Bruce


>For those who can't view the pwmeter.ps file i've put a GIF of the
>schematic in /incoming for everyone
>
>ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/pwmeter.gif
>
>It's pretty big though. If that still causes probs let me know and I'll
>try some other tricks. The main problem is that it will difficult to read
the text
>if I decrease the resolution too much. A decent GIF viewer should let you
scale
>and view it yourself.
>
>Christian Hack
>christianh at edmi.com.au
>EDMI Pty Ltd
>Ph : (07) 3888 3066
>FAX : (07) 3888 3583
>
>



From mpilkent at ptw.com  Tue Jan  5 03:05:24 1999
From: mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:05:24 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31598.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks everyone for the leads.  Got some research to do at the parts
counter.

Mike
(3.1L V6 Opel GT conversion)




From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com  Tue Jan  5 03:13:20 1999
From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:13:20 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31599.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Raymond C Drouillard wrote:
> 
> >AWD is really great for low traction conditions and year-round driving.
> >Rear wheel drive with a mid engine and sticky tires should be nearly as
> good
> >on dry pavement with way less complexity.  How and where do you drive?
> 
> If that's the case, why does the Lambroghini use AWD?

For all the obvious reasons.  Last time I looked at them (little joke
ther) AWD was optional though.  There are plenty of people who prefer
the  more direct FEEL and pointability of RWD to the stability and
real-world traction of AWD.
   RWD has the potential for a bit more fun, but AWD is harder to lose
control of.  All depends on what you want to do with your car.

Just my two cents

Aaron
ICQ # 27386985


From Fisystems at aol.com  Tue Jan  5 03:21:52 1999
From: Fisystems at aol.com (Fisystems at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:21:52 -0500
Subject: Electromotive problems....
Message-ID: <mailman.31600.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 12/30/98 8:23:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, CEIJR at aol.com
writes:

<< I have encountered intermittent problems with an Electromotive TEC II in a
 couple of instances. Each time, the ECU has completely lost its place and
shut
 down because of spark wire interference with the pickup lead from the crank
 trigger. After being sure that installation gives maximum separation, the
only
 problems have been with "low resistance" wires. Best results have been with
 street rf suppression wires, where the ECU has been rock solid. It is
 predicted that those won't last as long as some others, but they have worked
 better than more expensive spiral wound, etc. 
 												Charlie Iliff >>
Electromotive has a new pickup to correct this problem. 
Ken


From John.Andrian at usa.net  Tue Jan  5 03:38:35 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:38:35 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31601.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Khoo Teck-Khoon wrote:
> 
> I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am
> interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the
> air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with
> electronics, but I've seen similar products. Therefore, I hope that
> anyone of you super geniuses can help me. In Malaysia, I couldn't find
> such a product. And to import it in would cost me an arm and leg due to
> the import duties. Thank you.
> 
> Regards
> tkkhoo at hotmail.com
> 

You can find an injector duty cycle monitor with schematic at
http://sura1.jlab.org/~bowling/pwmeasure.html

Cheers
John Andrianakis



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Tue Jan  5 03:43:36 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:43:36 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31602.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

More on preTurbo exhausts... If they are long for pressure leveling, then you
have more area to insulate, and more heat loss,  therefor, shorter is better
and HPC coat everything to keep the heat in.  Heat is as important as
pressure.

If you can provide the dimensions, Mr Ed in Chicago can build them.

regards  Tom



From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan  5 03:45:09 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:45:09 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31603.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>
>Yes, it helps the designer achieve 50/50 weight distribution, but there
>are other ways of doing it.  The Corvette engineers did it by putting the
>engine in the front and the transmission in the back.
>
Hey--all the Corvette guys did was copy. Alfa's "Alfetta" FI cars of the
late '40's did that before there even WAS a Corvette--Not to mention the
early Pontiac Tempests, with their "rubber band" driveshafts!!




From clendenc at execpc.com  Tue Jan  5 04:01:34 1999
From: clendenc at execpc.com (Chad Clendening)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:01:34 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31604.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

What about making a SIMPLE PWM to DC converter for a DMM?  I figure this will
run about $2.00.  Maybee 3 if you have to go to a retail store.

Use a 10 volt regulator so the voltage is at a level most people can easily
divide in their heads.

Invert/ cleanup the PWM signal, using a bipolar setup as a common emitter, the
collector of that should have  ( near) 0 volts when the PWM is off, and near
10 volts when the PWM is on.  Connect this signal to the gates on both the
FET's. The drain leads of both fets are connected together in addition to a
filter resistor.  The source of the N channel is conntected to ground and the
source of the P is connected to +10.  The other lead of the filter resistor is
connected to a filtering capacitor ( this will also be the output of the
circuit) and the other side of the resistor is grounded.

The output of the circuit should be a 0 to 10 volt signal proportional to the
duty cycle x 10.  As long as the RC is correct ( big enough) , even a cheap
DMM should display the duty cycle OK

If this is too confusing I may be able to draw it in magic marker.

Chad




From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jan  5 04:08:36 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:08:36 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31605.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am 
> interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the 
> air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with 
> electronics, but I've seen similar products. Therefore, I hope that 
> anyone of you super geniuses can help me. In Malaysia, I couldn't find 
> such a product. And to import it in would cost me an arm and leg due to 
> the import duties. Thank you.
> 
If intersested in microprocessor, I wrote some intro to PIC C 
programs to do simple timing, will give 1us resolution, 65 ms range. 
with rs232 output.  search under PIC 101.  Place a 500K resistor
in series with input.
alex


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jan  5 04:36:24 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:36:24 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31606.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The $99 rad shack scope probe could work.
Is made in Germany and sold under a lot of different names.
alex
> Another thought..............how about an old "surplus" oscilloscope hooked
> up to the injector circuit.  This would provide a pretty good
> visual/graphical representation of duty cycle and phasing?
> 
> Various companies also manufacture "plug-n-play" notebook oriented
> automotive oscilloscope modules.
> 


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Tue Jan  5 04:52:00 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:52:00 -0500
Subject: Off Subject - Gas Grills
Message-ID: <mailman.31607.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Would one of you Australians find me a source for one of those fabulous
Aus. gas grills with the brass burners, cast iron grills, and Jarrah
wood trolley carts? I want a three burner unit but there are no dealers
in Il. and none that I can find in the US that will do mail order.

please reply off list.  Thanks in advance   Tom Sharpe
twsharpe at mtco.com



From ludis at cruzers.com  Tue Jan  5 07:24:36 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 02:24:36 -0500
Subject: 1227748 PROM dumps
Message-ID: <mailman.31608.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

A while ago Steve Ravet asked for PROM dumps for the 1227748 ECM for the
2.5 L4 engine.  I've uploaded 13 to the incoming directory.  Two are for
the 1228321 ECM which uses the same circuit board as the '7748.  The
'7748 was originally used with the "R"/"U" and "K" engines.  I didn't
keep track of what vehicle some of the PROMs came from - they could be
any three of these.

1227748
  Program code @ $C008 (aka $4008): 72 ($48)
    ABLT6730.S19  1987 2.0 "K" auto 2000ppm
    ACMA9517.S19  auto 4000ppm
    ACMB9524.S19  auto 2000ppm
    ACMC9528.S19  auto 4000ppm
    ACMF9538.S19  1987-88 Fiero 2.5 "R" auto 2000ppm
    ACMH9544.S19  1987-88 Fiero 2.5 "R" stick 2000ppm
    ADSJ2829.S19  auto 4000ppm

  Program code: 72 ($48) w/alterations (bug fix?)
    ALWM6770.S19  1987-88 Fiero 2.5 "R" auto 2000ppm
    ANAM1667.S19  auto 4000ppm
    ATBS3453.S19  1987-88 Fiero 2.5 "R" stick 2000ppm

  Program code: 112 ($70)
    ATXD7724.S19  1991 2.2 "G"

1228321
  Program code: 80 ($50)
    ARRN7099.S19  1989 2.0 "1" auto 4000ppm
    ARRP7103.S19  1989 2.0 "1" auto 4000ppm

It looks like I've got a good poker hand forming in the ACMs and ARRs. 
Here's how the transmission and VSS options are selected:

Program code 72:
 $C244 (aka $4244) bit %10000000 : 0 == auto, 1 == stick
 $C246 (aka $4246) bit %00100000 : 0 == 2000 ppm, 1 == 4000 ppm

Program code 80:
 $C009 (aka $4009) bit %00000001 : 0 == auto, 1 == stick
 $C009 (aka $4009) bit %00001000 : 0 == 2000 ppm, 1 == 4000 ppm

The 2000ppm digital VSS signal (from the instrument cluster) is input on
WHITE-23.  The 4000ppm AC VSS sensor inputs at BLACK-6.  BLACK-13
grounds the other side of the VSS sensor.  When using an ECM connected
VSS sensor, the ECM outputs a 4000 ppm digital VSS on WHITE-22 and a
2000 ppm digital VSS on WHITE-3.

BTW, the 2000 ppm mode is only used in J-bodies (Sunbird, etc.) and
P-bodies (Fiero).  This means that the ACMB PROM must be from a J-body
('cause it's not on the list for a Fiero.)

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/



From orin at wolfenet.com  Tue Jan  5 08:59:19 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 03:59:19 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31609.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> What about making a SIMPLE PWM to DC converter for a DMM?  I figure this will
> run about $2.00.  Maybee 3 if you have to go to a retail store.

> Use a 10 volt regulator so the voltage is at a level most people can easily
> divide in their heads.

Forgo the 10V and you could use a 74HC14 - inverts and cleans up the
signal nicely.  Run it a little over 5V supply (it will take up to 7V
according to the Motorola data book) so you get a 0 to 5V output.
Use a resistor in series with the input, a few k should be OK.  Add
a 5V zener if you are paranoid.  A filter cap on the input isn't
a bad idea either.

Use an old 4000 series CMOS chip and you could run it off 10V!

Orin.


From orin at wolfenet.com  Tue Jan  5 09:03:53 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 04:03:53 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31610.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> > I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am 
> > interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the 
> > air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with 
> > electronics, but I've seen similar products. Therefore, I hope that 
> > anyone of you super geniuses can help me. In Malaysia, I couldn't find 
> > such a product. And to import it in would cost me an arm and leg due to 
> > the import duties. Thank you.
> > 
> If intersested in microprocessor, I wrote some intro to PIC C 
> programs to do simple timing, will give 1us resolution, 65 ms range. 
> with rs232 output.  search under PIC 101.  Place a 500K resistor
> in series with input.


I have PIC16C84 code for a duty cycle meter - drives a 2 digit
multiplexed LED display.  I'll upload the code to the ftp site
when I get chance.

Orin.


From Cputter at sed.sun.ac.za  Tue Jan  5 09:13:21 1999
From: Cputter at sed.sun.ac.za (Putter C)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 04:13:21 -0500
Subject: Motronic Interface ?
Message-ID: <mailman.31611.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi,

Has anybody got an idea which protocal is ussed byt the bosch motronic
1.5/2.5 ECUs?
The diagnostics port on my car looks nearly like the ALDL ports and not like
OBD-II.

What is the equivalent to to Vauxhaul Astra (UK) {OPEL Astra (RSA)} in the
rest of the
world, maybe somebody has go some info on the computer, but published it
under another
name ?

Cheers
Carlo

Happy holidays to ya all.


From Cputter at sed.sun.ac.za  Tue Jan  5 09:14:21 1999
From: Cputter at sed.sun.ac.za (Putter C)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 04:14:21 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31612.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_000_01BE388A.57950D30
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi

Just a correction, the dutycycle of the injectors does not realy mean
anything,
it is the open time that is normally of interest. The dutycycle however can
give
you an indication of feul-economy.

Cheers
Carlo Putter
South Africa

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Stuart Bunning [SMTP:stuart at kenelec.com.au]
> Sent:	Monday, January 04, 1999 11:09 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Injector Duty Monitor
> 
> 
> I have not tried but would be interested in the results.
> 
> You can get digital multimeters that have a duty cycle input this should
> work and not cost much.
> Some multimeters have a dwell for  checking ignition dwell/points gap
> which
> may work for injectors????
> 
> If anyone has this type of multimeter one could they try it for us..
> 
> 
> At 11:38 PM 3/1/99 PST, you wrote:
> >I've searched the archives but could not find anything relevant. I am 
> >interested to make my own injector duty monitor..sort of like the 
> >air/fuel ratio..Can this be done? I am not very familiar with 
> >electronics, but I've seen similar products. Therefore, I hope that 
> >anyone of you super geniuses can help me. In Malaysia, I couldn't find 
> >such a product. And to import it in would cost me an arm and leg due to 
> >the import duties. Thank you.
> >
> >Regards
> >tkkhoo at hotmail.com
> >
> >______________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> STUART BUNNING
> SALES ENGINEER
> KENELEC PTY LTD
> 
> 23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
> MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
> AUSTRALIA
> 
> PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
> FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
> EMAIL:  stuart at kenelec.com.au
> WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/

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From gderian at cybergate.net  Tue Jan  5 13:08:03 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:08:03 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31613.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks, Greg, for the good discussion.  I never thought about the Mach 1
stuff in the exhaust housing.  At Mach 1, though, flow through a nozzle is
only dependant on density (upstream pressure).  Velocity cannot increase
with pressure drop but flow can still increase as density increases.  In
other words, sucking harder will not produce more flow but pushing harder
will, albeit at a reduced rate (kink in curve) since velocity cannot
increase.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>


<big snip>
>
>DO NOT misunderstand me, these wanderings are theoretical conjecture at
>best--if I shut up and build something, test it, and it proves out, then I
>would (and will!) be more forceful about it!
>>
>Regards, Greg
>



From gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu  Tue Jan  5 13:24:33 1999
From: gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu (Gregory A. Parmer)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:24:33 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31614.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> >For a relative sort of deal, see 
> >http://sura1.jlab.org/~bowling/fieye.html
> >It is a *very* simple idea.
> 
> I've seen the diagram and still confused somewhat. Anyway, is it 
> possible to wire a LED to the ECU side of the injector wire and just 
> look at the amount of time the LED is lighted. Perhaps, a continuous on 

Even the color route is relative. Brightness could be done, but
I suspect it'd be less than useful. The bi-color LED is only
a coupla bucks (unless you have to pay S&H).
-greg



From rauscher at icst.com  Tue Jan  5 13:33:56 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:33:56 -0500
Subject: incoming
Message-ID: <mailman.31615.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Clarence wrote:

>Subject: Re: IAC controller circuit
>
> Wonderful!  But, how do I access the 'incoming' site?
>


    Point the 'ole browser at this:


ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/


Lots of goodies in there...


BobR.

--




From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Tue Jan  5 14:00:05 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:00:05 -0500
Subject: Postscript
Message-ID: <mailman.31616.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello David;           
                   Sorry it took so long to get back on line, the move was a
mess, If you could  let me know how much the 
                     OTC 2000 with shipping  will be I will cut a check for
you as soon as I get your address off list
 
Thanks Don 

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	David A. Cooley [SMTP:n5xmt at bellsouth.net]
	Sent:	Wednesday, December 30, 1998 10:32 AM
	To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
	Cc:	frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com
	Subject:	Re: Postscript

	At 09:23 PM 1/7/90 -0500, you wrote:
	>Not to be annoying,
	>
	>However I'm trying to view John Gwyne's 68HC000 schematic, as well
as
	>several of hte EFI332 schematics off the DIYEFI website.  I
installed
	>Ghostview, a popular and robust postscript viewing application, as
well as
	>attempted to import into visio, MS word, Excel, Powerpoint, etc,
with no
	>luck.  The schematic is entirely unreadable.
	>
	>has anyone converted John's diagram to a lame format like GIF, JPG,
or even
	>better, PDF?
	>

	Some of the stuff on the FTP site I think was mis-named... I renamed
some
	of the unviewable .ps files to .pdf and acrobat read them perfect!

	===========================================================
	           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet:
N5XMT at bellsouth.net
	     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
	       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be
approximated.
	===========================================================


From pford at qnx.com  Tue Jan  5 14:10:54 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:10:54 -0500
Subject: aldl protocol
Message-ID: <mailman.31617.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  Hi Folks;
 does anybody have the protocol used by gm on the aldl port.
i have a 92 tracker and want to play around with some settings

THANKS

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan  5 14:52:55 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:52:55 -0500
Subject: aldl protocol
Message-ID: <mailman.31618.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Ford <pford at qnx.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 9:33 AM
Subject: aldl protocol

There is lots of info about the ALDL, in the archives, but, are you trying
to access
the calibrations thru the ALDL?.  The only ones that I know that have that
access,
are the late Flash Prom series.  If your's does allow that would you share
how it's
done.
  The ALDL can be used for diagnostics, and a scanner can be had for less
than the time to invent the link, well again in the archives is alotta
material.
Bruce


>  Hi Folks;
> does anybody have the protocol used by gm on the aldl port.
>i have a 92 tracker and want to play around with some settings
>
>THANKS
>
>Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
>QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
>(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews
>(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan  5 15:45:02 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:45:02 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31619.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory A. Parmer <gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor


On the ecm bench I use LED's and much over idle they are just pretty much
on.
IMHO, to do anything meaningful means actually measuring the pulses width.
Bruce.

>
>> >For a relative sort of deal, see
>> >http://sura1.jlab.org/~bowling/fieye.html
>> >It is a *very* simple idea.
>>
>> I've seen the diagram and still confused somewhat. Anyway, is it
>> possible to wire a LED to the ECU side of the injector wire and just
>> look at the amount of time the LED is lighted. Perhaps, a continuous on
>
>Even the color route is relative. Brightness could be done, but
>I suspect it'd be less than useful. The bi-color LED is only
>a coupla bucks (unless you have to pay S&H).
>-greg
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan  5 15:48:44 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:48:44 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31620.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Thanks, Greg, for the good discussion.  I never thought about the Mach 1
>stuff in the exhaust housing.  At Mach 1, though, flow through a nozzle is
>only dependant on density (upstream pressure).  Velocity cannot increase
>with pressure drop but flow can still increase as density increases.  In
>other words, sucking harder will not produce more flow but pushing harder
>will, albeit at a reduced rate (kink in curve) since velocity cannot
>increase.

Also dependent upon temperature, since Mach 1 increases with increasing
temp, but you knew that---

And since increasing the back-pressure on an engine will increase the EGT
(due to less downward T/P shock during blowdown), at least with a
turbocharger turbine nozzle, the flow will increase a bit more linearly
with increasing backpressure than your statement implies when dealing with
an engine /turbocharger pairing.

(I have a FAIRLY decent handle on what is happening qualitatively here, but
PLEASE don't ask for NUMBERS!!!)

The "pushing harder" (higher density) to get more flow through the nozzle
part would mean more back-pressure on the recip part of the engine, which
would mean more pumping losses, and hence less net output. (which, in turn,
translates to lower efficiency), which brings us back full circle! Exactly
why I SUSPECT that a well done pressure recovery accumulator on a good set
of turbo headers might make for a net gain!!

Thanks for the discussion, Gary. The back and forth definitely stretches
the knowlege envelope quite a bit!!
WHICH IS FUN!!!

I think the REAL unexplored gain is in (more efficient) pressure recovery
from the Mach .75 velocity in the gas spiral at the turbine outlet, though.
The circumferential component of the flow in that gas is distinctly greater
than the axial component. Some way of straightening the helical flow out,
and turning all (more) of that velocity back into static pressure would
truly be a FREE increase in the pressure ratio across the turbine, with all
of the performance improvements that that implies!!! Plus, I do not think
that a device for doing it would take up all that much space! Also, no
moving parts involved and decently low temps, so ALMOST as reliable as
taxes!
>
Greg

>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>
>
><big snip>
>>
>>DO NOT misunderstand me, these wanderings are theoretical conjecture at
>>best--if I shut up and build something, test it, and it proves out, then I
>>would (and will!) be more forceful about it!
>>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>




From pford at qnx.com  Tue Jan  5 16:09:22 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 11:09:22 -0500
Subject: aldl protocol
Message-ID: <mailman.31621.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:56:01 -0500
> From: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: aldl protocol
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Ford <pford at qnx.com>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 9:33 AM
> Subject: aldl protocol
> 
> There is lots of info about the ALDL, in the archives, but, are you trying
> to access
> the calibrations thru the ALDL?.  The only ones that I know that have that

I'm trying to down load the calibrations, planning on eventualy doing a 
custom controller

> access,
> are the late Flash Prom series.  If your's does allow that would you share
> how it's
> done.

when i pop the ecu open I'll report whats inside ( I'll try to draw a 
schematic)

>   The ALDL can be used for diagnostics, and a scanner can be had for less
> than the time to invent the link, 

wheres the fun in that 8*) , actualy this is a learning project as well, 
I am a class a mechanic and now a programmer, and want to try programming 
this beast

>well again in the archives is alotta

is there a search engine, and what are any helpful shortcuts

thanks


> material.
> Bruce
> 
> 
> >  Hi Folks;
> > does anybody have the protocol used by gm on the aldl port.
> >i have a 92 tracker and want to play around with some settings
> >
> >THANKS
> >
> >Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
> >QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
> >(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews
> >(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8
> >
> 
> 

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan  5 16:33:05 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 11:33:05 -0500
Subject: aldl protocol
Message-ID: <mailman.31622.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Ford <pford at qnx.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: aldl protocol


Go to   http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi
 hit archives, and seard title or content for aldl gcar diagnostics
programming 101  programming 808, then just read the whole
archives a couple times,  HOHOHAHA, welcome
Bruce

>
>I'm trying to down load the calibrations, planning on eventualy doing a
>custom controller
>
>when i pop the ecu open I'll report whats inside ( I'll try to draw a
>schematic)
>
>>   The ALDL can be used for diagnostics, and a scanner can be had for less
>> than the time to invent the link,
>
>wheres the fun in that 8*) , actualy this is a learning project as well,
>I am a class a mechanic and now a programmer, and want to try programming
>this beast
>
>>well again in the archives is alotta
>
>is there a search engine, and what are any helpful shortcuts
>
>thanks
>
>
>> material.
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>> >  Hi Folks;
>> > does anybody have the protocol used by gm on the aldl port.
>> >i have a 92 tracker and want to play around with some settings
>> >
>> >THANKS
>> >
>> >Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
>> >QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
>> >(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews
>> >(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M
1W8
>> >
>>
>>
>
>Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
>QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
>(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews
>(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8
>



From rwebb at ptialaska.net  Tue Jan  5 16:56:06 1999
From: rwebb at ptialaska.net (Ronald T. Webb)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 11:56:06 -0500
Subject: aldl protocol
Message-ID: <mailman.31623.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've got the engine/ecm/etc for a '92 tracker, that I will be using in a
homebuilt aircraft project.

The ECM is NOT GM. It is made by Mitsubishi, based on the MELPS 7700
microcontroller (6502 upgrade popular in Japan). The components are proprietary,
and I cannot even identify the EPROM with certainty.

Mitsubishi's web site is quite good, with a lot of data sheets for these chips,
but the chip that I think is the EPROM does not compute...It may be a RIOT chip
(ROM-I/O-Timer).

It would be interesting to follow your project, and I may be able to help...

Pat Ford wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:
>
> > Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:56:01 -0500
> > From: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > Subject: Re: aldl protocol
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pat Ford <pford at qnx.com>
> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> > Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 9:33 AM
> > Subject: aldl protocol
> >
> > There is lots of info about the ALDL, in the archives, but, are you trying
> > to access
> > the calibrations thru the ALDL?.  The only ones that I know that have that
>
> I'm trying to down load the calibrations, planning on eventualy doing a
> custom controller
>
> > access,
> > are the late Flash Prom series.  If your's does allow that would you share
> > how it's
> > done.
>
> when i pop the ecu open I'll report whats inside ( I'll try to draw a
> schematic)
>
> >   The ALDL can be used for diagnostics, and a scanner can be had for less
> > than the time to invent the link,
>
> wheres the fun in that 8*) , actualy this is a learning project as well,
> I am a class a mechanic and now a programmer, and want to try programming
> this beast
>
> >well again in the archives is alotta
>
> is there a search engine, and what are any helpful shortcuts
>
> thanks
>
> > material.
> > Bruce
> >
> >
> > >  Hi Folks;
> > > does anybody have the protocol used by gm on the aldl port.
> > >i have a 92 tracker and want to play around with some settings
> > >
> > >THANKS
> > >
> > >Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
> > >QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
> > >(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews
> > >(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8
> > >
> >
> >
>
> Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
> QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
> (613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews
> (613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Tue Jan  5 17:05:12 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:05:12 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31624.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

New pwmeter.zip file uploaded to the ftp site in incoming.

This one has a .gif and .pdf version of the schematic in addition to the
.ps version.  Plus, Georg wrote me a note explaining a little more how
the circuit works, which I've put into the pwmeter.txt file.  I'll also
include his note here:

-------------------------------------------------------
As for the description, it  might be a long one, but i will try and 
keep it short.

If you look at the schematic, you will see that the signal can be 
taken from across the injector or the ecu[switchable]. It is 
optically isolated from the vehicle to eliminate any problems. The 
signal is inverted by the mosfet and the original and inverted signal 
is fed to the interrupt pins of the micro. The reason for this is that 
the int' pins are  neg. edge triggered, and because we want to 
measure pulses widths and period, this is the way it has to be 
configured. 

Now all the micro bit does is when it gets triggered when the 
injector is switched on , a previously configured 16 bit counter 
starts a count with 1us rate. When the injector is shut off, the 
counter stops. This is all done with interrupts, so that all the 
other tasks the micro has to do can carry on without spending time in 
timing loops, ie. handles display routines when not measuring.

Now that the counter has a count eg. 12354 counts x 1us = 12.345ms
This get saved and the counter reset to for the next injector pulse.
The saved value gets displayed on the LCD display in milliseconds. 
Updating of the display is done as and when pulse arrive. If no 
pulses arrive the display will hold the last pulse width.

If you look at the code you will see the bulk of the code is to 
handle the lcd wrt. to formatting the output of it.

Now we could modify the code to measure the period  between injector 
pulses, we could  calculate the duty cycle from that in terms of 
on/off time and percentage. I nfact you could display all of this on 
a 2 line display.That is on-time[ms], off time[ms] and duty cycle[%]. 
If you have eperience with micro's, it should be easy. 
------------------------------------------------------------------

So, this is a circuit that measures the pulse width and displays it on
an LCD screen.  Some small changes would make it calculate duty cycle as
well.

The LCD is part number M1632.  I found 49 of them in stock for $13 ea at
http://www.eio.com/lcd.htm

I've added all this info to a new pwmeter.zip and uploaded it to
ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/pwmeter.zip.  You still need a
device programmer to program the atmel microcontroller though...

--steve


From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Tue Jan  5 17:07:46 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:07:46 -0500
Subject: ECM Wiring Diagram
Message-ID: <mailman.31625.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello David; Just got back on line today. Off line could you please give me
the cost for the OTC 2000 including shipping
                    And I will cut you a check.               Thanks   Don

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	David A. Cooley [SMTP:n5xmt at bellsouth.net]
	Sent:	Tuesday, December 29, 1998 3:03 PM
	To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
	Subject:	Re: ECM Wiring Diagram

	At 03:46 PM 12/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
	>
	>I'm confused by this.  If the white wire doesn't go to the ECM,
where does it
	>go and what is it's purpose?  Can I still get it from inside the
car somewhere
	>like I originally thought, or will I have to run that dreaded wire
out to the
	>coil?

	It runs from the ignition module to the ignition coil.  There is an
	ignition pulse feed to the ECM in the car, but it is a VERY low
current
	signal and loading it with an accessory such as a remote starter
could
	cause problems (IE Burn up the ECM)...
	If there was a factory option for a tach, the wiring harness should
have a
	wire leading to the dash just waiting for a tach... they liked to
use one
	harness for all the vehicles so as not to have different parts for
the same
	make/model.
	A wiring diagram would help you a lot!
	If there was no in-dash tach option, then you will need to tap into
the
	white wire that goes from the distributor module to the - side of
the
	ignition coil.  When you run it through the firewall of the car,
make sure
	you use a grommet!
	Later,
	Dave

	===========================================================
	           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet:
N5XMT at bellsouth.net
	     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
	       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be
approximated.
	===========================================================


From rauscher at icst.com  Tue Jan  5 18:13:55 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:13:55 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31626.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>




On this subject, what is it that we really want to
measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?

The two designs presented (B. Bowling and C Hack),
are nice. But getting access to a PIC programmer
can be a problem. JDR carries a bunch of PIC's, and
the OTP 16C56 can be had for $4.50US, not bad. A
AT89C2051 w/flash is $7.00US, plus Christian's
design reads out on an LCD screen, nice again.


If there's enough interest, would someone with a
PIC programmer burn up a bunch for a group purchase?


The other thing that can be done, is to use some
analog stuff, integrate the pulse, and read it out
with a DVM. Have it able to measure from say, 0 msec
up to a max of 20 msec?

If that's what we need, I'll do the design.

Anybody?


BobR.

--







From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan  5 19:00:48 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:00:48 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31627.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: rauscher at icst.com <rauscher at icst.com>
To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 1:25 PM
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor

IF your doing anything serious ya need pulse width, with at least  20.x
millisecond
maybe higher (more that 20), and a resolution of at least .x millisecond.
I'd perfer
.xx, with possibly an adjustment for dampening the flickering of numbers.
  Reading with a dwell meter is OK, and 1000x better than nothing but that's
about it.
  Bruce

>
>
>
>On this subject, what is it that we really want to
>measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?
>
>The two designs presented (B. Bowling and C Hack),
>are nice. But getting access to a PIC programmer
>can be a problem. JDR carries a bunch of PIC's, and
>the OTP 16C56 can be had for $4.50US, not bad. A
>AT89C2051 w/flash is $7.00US, plus Christian's
>design reads out on an LCD screen, nice again.
>
>
>If there's enough interest, would someone with a
>PIC programmer burn up a bunch for a group purchase?
>
>
>The other thing that can be done, is to use some
>analog stuff, integrate the pulse, and read it out
>with a DVM. Have it able to measure from say, 0 msec
>up to a max of 20 msec?
>
>If that's what we need, I'll do the design.
>
>Anybody?
>
>
>BobR.
>
>--
>
>
>
>
>



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Tue Jan  5 19:13:15 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:13:15 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31628.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



rauscher at icst.com wrote:
> 
> On this subject, what is it that we really want to
> measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?

Duty cycle, right?  The time available to inject fuel decreases with
increasing RPM.  So (for example) a 1 ms pulse at idle, every 20 ms is a
lot different than a 1 ms pulse at a higher RPM every 5 ms.  Just picked
those numbers out of the air. Don't think of it as PWM, where the
frequency never changes.

> 
> The two designs presented (B. Bowling and C Hack),
> are nice. But getting access to a PIC programmer
> can be a problem. JDR carries a bunch of PIC's, and
> the OTP 16C56 can be had for $4.50US, not bad. A
> AT89C2051 w/flash is $7.00US, plus Christian's
> design reads out on an LCD screen, nice again.

It's Georg's design, if you're talking about pwmeter.zip.  Sounds like
the whole thing could be built for $40 or so.  I'd be willing to buy one
if someone can program the atmel parts, and if someone can modify the
program to display both on time and duty cycle.

--steve


From orin at wolfenet.com  Tue Jan  5 19:46:01 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:46:01 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31629.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> If there's enough interest, would someone with a
> PIC programmer burn up a bunch for a group purchase?

I can burn PICs if necessary.

Orin.


From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Tue Jan  5 21:30:34 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:34 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31630.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 08:45 AM 1/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
(snip)
>I think the REAL unexplored gain is in (more efficient) pressure recovery
>from the Mach .75 velocity in the gas spiral at the turbine outlet, though.
>The circumferential component of the flow in that gas is distinctly greater
>than the axial component. Some way of straightening the helical flow out,
>and turning all (more) of that velocity back into static pressure would
>truly be a FREE increase in the pressure ratio across the turbine, with all
>of the performance improvements that that implies!!! Plus, I do not think
>that a device for doing it would take up all that much space! Also, no
>moving parts involved and decently low temps, so ALMOST as reliable as
>taxes!
>>
>Greg

  I was just reading about the "Banjo-type" turbine discharge, in Hugh MacInnes's Turbochargers.  On page 72 he states that Dennis Sevier, Chief Engineer of Bristol replaced an elbow, which cost power on acceleration and at top end, with the banjo-type fitting and found that it "worked at least as well as a straight exhaust".
  Does anybody know where a feller could get a banjo-type fitting?
IZCC #3426
 1982 280ZX Turbo GL
 1966 El Camino
 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle
 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine)
 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower
Clarence Wood
Software&Such...
clarencewood at centuryinter.net
Savannah, TN.


From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan  5 22:33:25 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:33:25 -0500
Subject: Slight corrrection on VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.31631.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Some days, weeks, months ago, some one mentioned that the VSS
has nothing to due with engine fueling, well I wanted to make sure, but yes
it does on the BCC AUJP.  Closed throttle with a VSS
signal decreasing, does do a 0 injector oulse width, according to diacom.
Also. appears in some 87-89 165 Vette stuff.  Those
were not stock (vette) but I'd doubt a chip burner had the knowledge to
invoke it.
  It also, did this open or closed loop.
Cheers
Bruce       What's that Doc?, if I hit send it goes to the list?. OK, let's
                 see delete or send, oops



From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan  5 23:04:19 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:04:19 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31632.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>At 08:45 AM 1/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>(snip)
>>I think the REAL unexplored gain is in (more efficient) pressure recovery
>>from the Mach .75 velocity in the gas spiral at the turbine outlet, though.
>>The circumferential component of the flow in that gas is distinctly greater
>>than the axial component. Some way of straightening the helical flow out,
>>and turning all (more) of that velocity back into static pressure would
>>truly be a FREE increase in the pressure ratio across the turbine, with all
>>of the performance improvements that that implies!!! Plus, I do not think
>>that a device for doing it would take up all that much space! Also, no
>>moving parts involved and decently low temps, so ALMOST as reliable as
>>taxes!
>>>
>>Greg
>
>  I was just reading about the "Banjo-type" turbine discharge, in Hugh
>MacInnes's Turbochargers.  On page 72 he states that Dennis Sevier, Chief
>Engineer of Bristol replaced an elbow, which cost power on acceleration
>and at top end, with the banjo-type fitting and found that it "worked at
>least as well as a straight exhaust".
>  Does anybody know where a feller could get a banjo-type fitting?

Nope, but I would be interested too!! I have been pondering on those banjos
too, also thinking about straintening vanes inside a backwards megaphone
with a cone inside, and some other ideas that would really cause a
fabricator to cuss loudly!!

All thoughts on this welcome!!

To give you all some idea of what I am talking about, on a 350 HP engine,
there is about 29 HP worth of energy just in the momentum (calculated above
the momentum of the gas in an exhaust pipe flowing at 200 fps.) of the gas
leaving the turbo turbine!!! (Not talking about heat energy here, just
momentum!!!) If you could recover just recover 60% of that , that would be
about a 5% improvement in output, essentially for FREE !!!

Let's get some ideas flowing!!

Regards, Greg




From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com  Tue Jan  5 23:08:35 1999
From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:08:35 -0500
Subject: Turbine Discharge (was Water Injection Thread)
Message-ID: <mailman.31633.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence Wood wrote:
> 
> At 08:45 AM 1/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
> (snip)
> >I think the REAL unexplored gain is in (more efficient) pressure recovery
> >from the Mach .75 velocity in the gas spiral at the turbine outlet, though.
> >The circumferential component of the flow in that gas is distinctly greater
> >than the axial component. Some way of straightening the helical flow out,
> >and turning all (more) of that velocity back into static pressure would
> >truly be a FREE increase in the pressure ratio across the turbine, with all
> >of the performance improvements that that implies!!! Plus, I do not think
> >that a device for doing it would take up all that much space! Also, no
> >moving parts involved and decently low temps, so ALMOST as reliable as
> >taxes!
> >>
> >Greg
> 
>   I was just reading about the "Banjo-type" turbine discharge, in Hugh MacInnes's Turbochargers.  On page 72 he states that Dennis Sevier, Chief Engineer of Bristol replaced an elbow, which cost power on acceleration and at top end, with the banjo-type fitting and found that it "worked at least as well as a straight exhaust".
>   Does anybody know where a feller could get a banjo-type fitting?
> IZCC #3426
>  1982 280ZX Turbo GL
>  1966 El Camino
>  1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle
>  1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine)
>  1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower
> Clarence Wood
> Software&Such...
> clarencewood at centuryinter.net
> Savannah, TN.
Damn, Clarence, you beat me to that one.  This is something I'm very
interested in too - any leads??

Aaron

ICQ # 27386985


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Tue Jan  5 23:41:31 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:41:31 -0500
Subject: Slight corrrection on VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.31634.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> Some days, weeks, months ago, some one mentioned that the VSS
> has nothing to due with engine fueling, well I wanted to make sure, but yes
> it does on the BCC AUJP.  Closed throttle with a VSS
> signal decreasing, does do a 0 injector oulse width, according to diacom.
> Also. appears in some 87-89 165 Vette stuff.  Those
> were not stock (vette) but I'd doubt a chip burner had the knowledge to
> invoke it.

That's decel cutoff, isn't it?  I used to own an '89 vette with the
digital dash.  One of the many things the dash would do was read out
instantaneous mpg.  I distinctly remember that if you let off the gas,
say in second gear and around 30 mph (like slowing for a stop sign),
about a half second after getting off the gas there would be a small
lurch, and the mpg meter would peg at 99.  When you slowed to the point
that rpm was almost idle, like 1200 or so, there was a much more
noticeable lurch and the mpg meter would drop to a reasonable value. 
The service manual also confirmed that the ECM would shut off fuel
delivery under some deceleration conditions.  Mine was standard, does
the automatic bin do this?  seems like an auto could stall without the
drivetrain keeping the engine turning.

--steve

>   It also, did this open or closed loop.
> Cheers
> Bruce       What's that Doc?, if I hit send it goes to the list?. OK, let's
>                  see delete or send, oops


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Wed Jan  6 00:06:11 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:06:11 -0500
Subject: Slight corrrection on VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.31635.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, steve ravet wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> That's decel cutoff, isn't it?  I used to own an '89 vette with the
> digital dash.  One of the many things the dash would do was read out
> instantaneous mpg.  I distinctly remember that if you let off the gas,
> say in second gear and around 30 mph (like slowing for a stop sign),
> about a half second after getting off the gas there would be a small
> lurch, and the mpg meter would peg at 99.  When you slowed to the point
> that rpm was almost idle, like 1200 or so, there was a much more
> noticeable lurch and the mpg meter would drop to a reasonable value. 
> The service manual also confirmed that the ECM would shut off fuel
> delivery under some deceleration conditions.  Mine was standard, does
> the automatic bin do this?  seems like an auto could stall without the
> drivetrain keeping the engine turning.
> 
> --steve

I did notice there is some code in the TCC lockup routines that do
things different based on coasting above or below a certain speed.
Also torque convertors work just fine in reverse, so at higher speeds
the torque convertor will still be turning the engine just not a 1:1
speed.  At lower speeds the computer may be doing something to keep it
from stalling.  Mine has not dropped below idle speed while I am
coasting so it is doing someting.

		Roger
		93 Z28 A4



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Wed Jan  6 00:16:36 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:16:36 -0500
Subject: Slight corrrection on VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.31636.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 05:39 PM 1/5/99 -0600, you wrote:

>That's decel cutoff, isn't it?  I used to own an '89 vette with the
>digital dash.  One of the many things the dash would do was read out
>instantaneous mpg.  I distinctly remember that if you let off the gas,
>say in second gear and around 30 mph (like slowing for a stop sign),
>about a half second after getting off the gas there would be a small
>lurch, and the mpg meter would peg at 99.  When you slowed to the point
>that rpm was almost idle, like 1200 or so, there was a much more
>noticeable lurch and the mpg meter would drop to a reasonable value. 
>The service manual also confirmed that the ECM would shut off fuel
>delivery under some deceleration conditions.  Mine was standard, does
>the automatic bin do this?  seems like an auto could stall without the
>drivetrain keeping the engine turning.

Yep..
The auto's do it as well.
The MPH/RPM points are different to ensure the engine won't stall though.

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From ehall at together.net  Wed Jan  6 00:25:50 1999
From: ehall at together.net (Ezra Hall)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:25:50 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31637.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is my first post to this list. I am on digest mode. Nice to join this
group of knowledgeable folks! I am an electrical engineer by profession, but
I am working on an automotive project (in my spare time,haha ) and need a
wide range Lambda sensor for it. The Bosche web site describes a Planer
wide-band Lambda sensor, but all of my calls to their corporation have
proved useless with regards to obtaining a P/N for a sensor that will work
on my vehicle (the electrical connector is not important, I can solder). Any
suggestions as to which vehicles use Lambda sensors with a wide range? I
would like it to extend at least to a 12.6:1 Air/Fuel ratio. I know these
beasts exist.

  Thanks for any assistance you can provide!

Ezra Hall
ehall at together.net



From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Wed Jan  6 00:25:58 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:25:58 -0500
Subject: GM PCM Auto Trans control
Message-ID: <mailman.31638.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Has anybody been playing around with the P6? PCM's that also control trans
shifts, not just TCC lockup, but 1-2, 2-3 etc shifts?.
If so, is the calibrations for shift firmness & shift points like a standard
table?.
It seems most cars have a Econ/Pwr setting for trans control, although,
maybe I shouldn't find this out cause I'd have axle snapping / front wheel
launch setting instead ;-)

Ross Myers



From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan  6 00:32:08 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:32:08 -0500
Subject: Slight corrrection on VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.31639.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: steve ravet <Steve.Ravet at arm.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: Slight corrrection on VSS

snip

The AUJP is an auto calibration
Bruce


  Mine was standard, does
>the automatic bin do this?  seems like an auto could stall without the
>drivetrain keeping the engine turning.
>
>--steve
>




From mwichstr at online.no  Wed Jan  6 00:33:34 1999
From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:33:34 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread /turbo turbin 
Message-ID: <mailman.31640.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>




> > >Thanks, Greg, for the good discussion.  I never thought about the Mach
1
> >stuff in the exhaust housing.  At Mach 1, though, flow through a nozzle
is
> >only  >>
I have allso never thought about this point my self, thanks Greg.
I think that the design of manifolds must follow application.
in a regular standard car with backpressure exiding boost pressure at high
rpms, where you need fast spool up as possible I think your better of with
a manifold with as little volume as possible,without destroing the flow to
much.
This means little heat loss from manifold ,(fast spool up)When the exhaust 
has passed the turbin it can not do any negative backpressure work anymore.
There fore the small volume of manifold is a bennefit in the high
backpressure 
aria.At least I think it will work over a greater aria than the timing of
pulses in a tubular manifold.It would be interesting to discower how a
turbo with one turbin for each cyl.mounted just outside the exhaus outlet
of the engine head would work.As you say , the pulses will be strong and
evently break the mach 1 . many small turbines calls for high leakage
.maybe not a god Idee after all.
In a turbo aplication with focus on maximum output I would go for headers.
When the turbine is mached for max efficensy at high rpm.At what point 
do we want the pulses to help us?At the point just before the boost starts?
Long not isolated headers will lose a lot of the precius energy we have
when
we need it as most, when boost is starting , this means less efficient
aria, at high rpm this lost energy does not play a major role, maybe we
want it to cool the exhaust as much as possible , because we have to much
of it.(We have discussed earlier the possibility of insulating the inside
of the exhaust tubes....was it possible?)  What about using a twin entry
turbo and connect the two enties with an extra wast gate walve at the point
where backpressure exides boost pressure.This will increase the turbine
envelope,and that is the main problem 
with turbo chargers .The efficient turbine work aria is to small . Maybe
thats why chryslers turbine car was no sucsess. Garret has started
massproducing 
turbines with wariable nossle, you will not need a wastegate any more...
No more dumping of energy.
Many do a modification to the turbines( to expand their ranges?) some
cut/clip the wings on the outlet part of turbine wheel , some increase the
outlet circumference diameter to a bigger dimension than the turbine wheel.
Its a pitty that turbine efficency charts is difficult to get ,all I have
seen is compressor maps , their range of efficency is much greater.....
Backpressure will increase faster if you have a little turbine wheel with
the greatest nossle/exhaust hausing (mach 1 at more places on the way trou
the turbine?), then is better to have one of the smallest 
exhaust housings on a big turbine wheel, I think this gives you not the
best peek efficiency but a wider aria.
I have seen two stroke engines with tuned expansion cambers and turboes no
the end, tremendus output! Drag snowsleds with efi and tuned expansion 
cambers and turbo.....WOW
Maybe we must alter the engine to give a strong exhaust puls to take full
advantage of this in a 4 stroke.
With the hat safe on my head.(cone shape)
espen
Please run an english spell check before reading.....I dont have one.....it
shows......



From christianh at edmi.com.au  Wed Jan  6 01:03:50 1999
From: christianh at edmi.com.au (Christian Hack)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:03:50 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31641.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
> 
> On this subject, what is it that we really want to
> measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?
> 
> The two designs presented (B. Bowling and C Hack),
> are nice. But getting access to a PIC programmer
> can be a problem. JDR carries a bunch of PIC's, and
> the OTP 16C56 can be had for $4.50US, not bad. A
> AT89C2051 w/flash is $7.00US, plus Christian's
> design reads out on an LCD screen, nice again.

Just want to make the point that I can take _no_ credit
for the pwmeter.zip design. The guy who did it is Georg Lerm.
I'm just a mere PS to GIF converter boy (That's where you
start when you're a junior at CSH HQ - hopefully I'll get
a promotion soon).

> 
> If there's enough interest, would someone with a
> PIC programmer burn up a bunch for a group purchase?
> 

I have designs for PIC programmer that can be whipped on
a bread board in less than an hour and will program almost
any PIC. Only requires two voltage regs, an open collector 
hex inverter and a coupla transistors/resistors/capacitors.


Christian Hack
christianh at edmi.com.au
EDMI Pty Ltd
Ph : (07) 3888 3066
FAX : (07) 3888 3583




From christianh at edmi.com.au  Wed Jan  6 01:08:27 1999
From: christianh at edmi.com.au (Christian Hack)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:08:27 -0500
Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #10
Message-ID: <mailman.31642.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> Now we could modify the code to measure the period  between injector 
> pulses, we could  calculate the duty cycle from that in terms of 
> on/off time and percentage. I nfact you could display all of this on 
> a 2 line display.That is on-time[ms], off time[ms] and duty cycle[%]. 
> If you have eperience with micro's, it should be easy. 

I program these things at work and at home so if Georg can't find the time
to change his program I might be able to help out here if anyone wants. That's assuming
I get some time to work on and release the new version of MapEdit (Sorry guys,
I know I said early December but I have 101 things to do at the moment - perhaps
in a month or so?)


Christian Hack
christianh at edmi.com.au
EDMI Pty Ltd
Ph : (07) 3888 3066
FAX : (07) 3888 3583




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Wed Jan  6 01:16:56 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:16:56 -0500
Subject: GM PCM Auto Trans control
Message-ID: <mailman.31643.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 03:41 PM 1/5/99 +1100, you wrote:
>Has anybody been playing around with the P6? PCM's that also control trans
>shifts, not just TCC lockup, but 1-2, 2-3 etc shifts?.
>If so, is the calibrations for shift firmness & shift points like a standard
>table?.
>It seems most cars have a Econ/Pwr setting for trans control, although,
>maybe I shouldn't find this out cause I'd have axle snapping / front wheel
>launch setting instead ;-)
>
>Ross Myers
>

Ross,
I've been playing around a bit... I have a 95 Buick LeSabre with the 3800
Series I V6.
I uploaded a picture of the internals of my PCM to the Incoming site, file
name is: 
 GM-P6-PCM.jpg
Also, the ROM is  95-lesabre.bmyu1714.bin  from the /pub/diy_efi/bins
directory.

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From tparker at nznet.gen.nz  Wed Jan  6 01:25:35 1999
From: tparker at nznet.gen.nz (Tom Parker)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:25:35 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31644.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Mos <s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au> wrote:

>What about painting the reflective stuff with opaque paint? Still the same
>colour, just much less reflective.

In NZ if they catch you covering your plate in any way, you are in big
trouble. If a copper was following you, he might notice that your  plate
doesn't refelect like it should. At night, even dirty Plates light up from
100's of metres away.

My personal system would look a bit odd on most cars. I drive a mini which has
a number plate hanging under the front bumper, with the bottom edge about 4
inches above the ground. Mine is rather loosely attached and is bent in such a
way that it hangs straight when you are stationary, but flies up under the
bumper enough to dissapear when you are moving.

The only problem is if you see the camera and hit the brakes, then it probably
reappears.

Doesn't work on the rear plate though.

--
Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/



From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Wed Jan  6 02:43:24 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:43:24 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31645.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>older engige or swap entire engine?  I dont know Dodge maybe you do have to
>reinvent the wheel.  If you have room to the front of the engine you can

Yes, they did.  This is an option for the 318, however I'm moving to a 383,
and want to inject the thing in a multi-port fashion for a variety of
reasons.  I have already collected most of the GM parts necessary to do
this, and the crank sensor will be the most intricate.  Everything else is
either a tapped hole or a wire :)

>swap in a Viper engine?(yes I know VERY $$ and hard to find at least in
>Ontario Canada)

They are fairly expensive in the US as well, and not that common.  If I
were to consider that route, I'd dump the cash and go with the cummins
deisel, just because the cost should be less, and certainly deisel can be
used for towing :)

Diesel I don't know, gas I do, so I think I'll stick with the 383 since I
have it, and most of the EFI parts.  Should be a fun fabrication thing :)


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Wed Jan  6 02:43:24 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:43:24 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31646.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Mucho better than trying to use grease to put in the counter
>shaft bearings. The darn things always fall out

Good advice, thank you.

>Oh yes Mopar Perf has a special pilot bushing just for auto.
>No machining needed.

So Peter, let me get this straight - my understanding is that I can use an
auto crank with the manual transmission by using a special mopar part?


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Wed Jan  6 02:43:36 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:43:36 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31647.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I think he's already up to using a 383 ("B" big block). These and the "RB"s
>(raised deck) went away I think in '76 or so, before EFI. A 383 (or better
>yet a 413/426/440 RB) is so far superior to a 318/340/360 as to be almost
>funny.  Have not heard a lot of noise one way or the other yet, but I have

Yes, I happen to be in your camp on this - no replacement for displacement,
and I'm working out the measurements on using a 440 RB crank inside a 383 B
block.  Obviously, the block/mains -or- the crank will have to be machined
down to fit, since the diameter of the 440 crank is so much thicker on the
journals.  I've received private suggestions both ways, and I dropped the
440 crank at the machine shop this morning to get their educated guess on
the issue.

Everyone say.... "stroker".

>not heard of many V-10's in things like boats yet. Nor have I seen any
>Moparts aftermarket advertising for  V-10's. The fact that the same folks

The V10 is a good engine, I've driven both flavors - truck and viper - its
a great, responsive powerplant that's not as noisy as I expected.  Modern
technology.  But the damn things are so expensive.  Crate version from
Mopar is in the 5k+ range if my memory serves me correct.  Don't quote me.

>are resurrecting the elephant (426 Hemi) prolly speaks pretty powerfully to
>which block is the better one!! I would almost bet that you could acquire a
>new Hemi for the same money as a low mileage Viper motor!! May well be
>close to the same story for a low mileage V-10 truck motor!!

Mopar recently re-introduced a redesigned hemi engine, with little
crossover from the original molds.  My understanding was the tooling for
the original hemi series was dumped (as was the poli series) after the
manufacturing was done, and Mopar engineers recently (last few years)
reverse engineered their own product, and re-invented the wheel,
supposively better.

>And I know EXACTLY how I would choose to spend the loot if it were me doing
>it!!!

383 with a turbo and some EFI crap :)

>decks. Yes, manifold spacers are commonly available.  But I have never seen
>any "unspacers"!! Maybe someone who specializes in rescuing and

Um, milling machine :)

I'm going to fabricate the manifold anyway, if I can find the blueprints
for the OEM manifold/block/heads, much the way the "Buick Power Source"
does for the Buick V6 engines (231/252 RWD series).  With this information,
I can draw it into AutoCad and have three plates made - left head, right
head, and valley cover, bolt them down, weld them together (braze
actually), and fabricate intake runners to a large box.

Worked for the Buick V6, should work with the Mopar 383.  This is one of
the things I do like about EFI (other than the obvious ones) - with a dry
manifold your manifold design can be off or lazy, and the thing will still
work quite well.  When we did the radical Buick V6, we completely
fabricated the manifold without any mathematics at all.  The only thing we
did calculate was a 1.5 ratio of intake plenum versus the displacement of
the engine.  yes, I'm somewhat of a corky bell fan :)


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Wed Jan  6 02:43:41 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:43:41 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31648.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>The problem with Chrysler EFI is the computers are potted and sealed... No
>chip to replace... Makes it kind of hot-rodder or custom unfriendly.

Very true.  And the stuff in the 80's I've never seen an aftermarket module
that intercepts signals and modifys them the same way they have to mid 90's
RAM trucks.  THough the older stuff is neat - a computer in an air cleaner
is a neat idea :)

>Not sure if the 383 was ever injected though... (or what, if any, EFI parts
>would swap from a 360 or 318)

Not that I can tell, and we all know the big block disappeared.  Its 318 or
360, and that's it.  If you get a non-magnum engine, the 318 and 360
intakes of the same eras are pretty much compatible, but the magnum parts
are drilled or milled slightly differently, just enough not to fit.

I'm very close to deciding that the final solution will be this:

	Mopar 383 engine, .030 over
	Custom dry intake with integral oil cooler welded into the intake log (for
water cooling)
	One large undetermined turbo
	GM Camaro/Firebird/Corvette ECM from the early 90's
	rest of the GM sensors, wires, and assorted accessories.

I intend to build to 400 HP and 450 ft/lbs of torque if I can get it
reliably.  I tend to blow motors apart with all the experiments these days :)


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Wed Jan  6 03:14:09 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:14:09 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31649.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Clarence Wood wrote:

>   Does anybody know where a feller could get a banjo-type fitting?
>

make it IMHO --- looks like the brake line to caliper connection or the donut with a pipe used on
top of the carb on old Paxton setups to connect the blower to the carb. Basically the turbine outlet faces a flat (or convex) surface with the flow going in all directions to be collected again and routed away 90 deg. from the inlet.    (I Think)

Regards  Tom



From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Wed Jan  6 03:20:30 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:20:30 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31650.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:45:05 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
>
>>
>>Yes, it helps the designer achieve 50/50 weight distribution, but there
>>are other ways of doing it.  The Corvette engineers did it by putting
the
>>engine in the front and the transmission in the back.
>>
>Hey--all the Corvette guys did was copy. Alfa's "Alfetta" FI cars of the
>late '40's did that before there even WAS a Corvette--Not to mention the
>early Pontiac Tempests, with their "rubber band" driveshafts!!

OK, Greg... I bow to your superior knowledge of vintage cars :)  The
oldest thing I ever drove (besides some military vehicles) was my Dad's
'67 Ambassador Wagon.

I remember seeing something interesting at my favorite mechanic's shop. 
It was an automatic transmission and differential in one unit bolted
between the rear wheels (independent rear suspension).  I believe that
the torque converter was attached to the engine.  It was an American car
from the '50s or '60s ('60s, I think).  Do you have any idea what it is?

I also remember seeing an old Lincoln that had a double-cardon on both
ends of the driveshaft.  I had heard that having a double-cardon at both
ends will allow the driveshaft to drop out of alignment, but the joints
on the Lincoln were retained by some pieces of spring steel.

Ray

___________________________________________________________________
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From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 03:33:13 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:33:13 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread /turbo turbin
Message-ID: <mailman.31651.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>> > >Thanks, Greg, for the good discussion.  I never thought about the Mach
>1
>> >stuff in the exhaust housing.  At Mach 1, though, flow through a nozzle
>is
>> >only  >>

.At what point  do we want the pulses to help us?At the point just before
the boost starts?
>Long not isolated headers will lose a lot of the precius energy we have
>when
>we need it as most, when boost is starting ,

Not if they are coated, inside and out and insulated--then the energy has
nowhere to go!!

Or maybe inject some water into the exhaust manifold when the throttle ix
opened, but the turbo has not yet spooled up. This would increase the
volume of the gasses greatly, even though dropping the temp. Prolly would
act like a temporarily smaller nozzle for spool up!

>the turbine?), then is better to have one of the smallest
>exhaust housings on a big turbine wheel, I think this gives you not the
>best peek efficiency but a wider aria.

I will have to ponder on this one, may well be you are right.

>I have seen two stroke engines with tuned expansion cambers and turboes no
>the end, tremendus output! Drag snowsleds with efi and tuned expansion
>cambers and turbo.....WOW

This is awfully close to what I am talking about with a "pressure recovery
accumulator"!! You givd me hope that one would work as I expect on a four
stroke!!!

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 03:33:15 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:33:15 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31652.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>This is my first post to this list. I am on digest mode. Nice to join this
>group of knowledgeable folks! I am an electrical engineer by profession, but
>I am working on an automotive project (in my spare time,haha ) and need a
>wide range Lambda sensor for it. The Bosche web site describes a Planer
>wide-band Lambda sensor, but all of my calls to their corporation have
>proved useless with regards to obtaining a P/N for a sensor that will work
>on my vehicle (the electrical connector is not important, I can solder). Any
>suggestions as to which vehicles use Lambda sensors with a wide range? I
>would like it to extend at least to a 12.6:1 Air/Fuel ratio. I know these
>beasts exist.
>
>  Thanks for any assistance you can provide!
>
>Ezra Hall
>ehall at together.net

Honda VTEC's use an NGK which is way superior to the Bosch unit.

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 03:36:11 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:36:11 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31653.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>> Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
>>
>> On this subject, what is it that we really want to
>> measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?
>>
Duty cycle relates to horsepower, pulsewidth to torque--which do you wanna
know??

Regards, Greg




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Wed Jan  6 03:40:26 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:40:26 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31654.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 10:07 PM 1/5/99 -0500, you wrote:

>
>I remember seeing something interesting at my favorite mechanic's shop. 
>It was an automatic transmission and differential in one unit bolted
>between the rear wheels (independent rear suspension).  I believe that
>the torque converter was attached to the engine.  It was an American car
>from the '50s or '60s ('60s, I think).  Do you have any idea what it is?

That was an Oldsmobile... Not sure the year and model, but the "driveshaft"
was a spring-steel shaft for flexibility and went from the Flywheel of the
engine to the transaxle/torque-converter assy in the rear.

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Wed Jan  6 03:44:28 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:44:28 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31655.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 08:32 PM 1/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>> Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
>>>
>>> On this subject, what is it that we really want to
>>> measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?
>>>
>Duty cycle relates to horsepower, pulsewidth to torque--which do you wanna
>know??

Huh?
Duty cycle is the ratio of on to off time of the injector... this you need
to know so you don't have to run your injectors static at WOT and Max
RPM... Pulsewidth will tell you how long the injector is open so you know
how much fuel is being injected...

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan  6 04:01:02 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:01:02 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31656.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor

Nope, think ya need another cup of coffee, the PW is just more accurate.
One less computation/average.  If your doing a point by point comparasion
the pw is more accurate, IMHO
Bruce  


>>> Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
>>>
>>> On this subject, what is it that we really want to
>>> measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?
>>>
>Duty cycle relates to horsepower, pulsewidth to torque--which do you wanna
>know??
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>



From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Wed Jan  6 04:15:05 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:15:05 -0500
Subject: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31657.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On 06 Jan 99 01:23:21 +1200 "Tom Parker" <tparker at nznet.gen.nz> writes:
>Mos <s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au> wrote:
>
>>What about painting the reflective stuff with opaque paint? Still the
same
>>colour, just much less reflective.
>
>In NZ if they catch you covering your plate in any way, you are in big
>trouble. If a copper was following you, he might notice that your  plate
>doesn't refelect like it should. At night, even dirty Plates light up
from
>100's of metres away.
>
>My personal system would look a bit odd on most cars. I drive a mini
which has
>a number plate hanging under the front bumper, with the bottom edge
about 4
>inches above the ground. Mine is rather loosely attached and is bent in
such a
>way that it hangs straight when you are stationary, but flies up under
the
>bumper enough to dissapear when you are moving.
>
>The only problem is if you see the camera and hit the brakes, then it
probably
>reappears.
>
>Doesn't work on the rear plate though.
>
>--
>Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
>           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/
>

In Michigan, we don't have front plates :)

If they decide to put them back on (the state did away with them when I
was a kid), I'll know what they're up to.

Ray Drouillard


___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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From twsharpe at mtco.com  Wed Jan  6 04:32:47 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:32:47 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31658.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Christian Hack wrote:

> > Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
> >
> > On this subject, what is it that we really want to
> > measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?

V8 @ 1000 rpm = .060 sec/rev = .120 sec per 4cycles or .030 (30ms) per
intake event (approx)

Duty cycle = (pulse width/cycle)/(time/cycle)

We can easily calculate DC from PW and RPM. (assuming 1 pulse per 4
cycles)
DC = PW/(120/rpm) or PW*RPM/120

V8 @ 7000 rpm = .00857 sec/rev = .0171 sec/4c or .004286 (4.29ms) sec /
intake event

How big of an injector can do that???? ( I need 120 pounders!)

I think we need PW......  Regards  Tom






From twsharpe at mtco.com  Wed Jan  6 04:34:42 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:34:42 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31659.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



David A. Cooley wrote:

> At 10:07 PM 1/5/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >
> >I remember seeing something interesting at my favorite mechanic's shop.
> >It was an automatic transmission and differential in one unit bolted
> >between the rear wheels (independent rear suspension).  I believe that
> >the torque converter was attached to the engine.  It was an American car
> >from the '50s or '60s ('60s, I think).  Do you have any idea what it is?
>
> That was an Oldsmobile... Not sure the year and model, but the "driveshaft"
> was a spring-steel shaft for flexibility and went from the Flywheel of the
> engine to the transaxle/torque-converter assy in the rear.
>

Pontiac Tempest. (I don't know if Olds had a variant).  Tom



From rotax at ludd.luth.se  Wed Jan  6 04:36:01 1999
From: rotax at ludd.luth.se (Daniel R. Henriksson)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:36:01 -0500
Subject: Pinout Bosch HotWire AMM...
Message-ID: <mailman.31660.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I need the pinout and signal specifications on the Bosch
HotWire AirMassMeters, it's the old style 
0280 212 005 (-85 Saab) or 0280 212 011 (-92 Saab), 
any similar device would do...

These are my guesses so far:

Pin	Function
1:	AMM-something???
2:	+14Volts
3:	Burnoff??????
4:	Ground
5:	AMM-something???
6:	AirTemp?????

I'm in the process of building a AFM-to-AMM adaptor computer.

Any advice would be appreachiated!

/Daniel Henriksson	
rotax at ludd.luth.se


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Wed Jan  6 04:44:56 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:44:56 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31661.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 10:36 PM 1/5/99 -0600, you wrote:

>> That was an Oldsmobile... Not sure the year and model, but the "driveshaft"
>> was a spring-steel shaft for flexibility and went from the Flywheel of the
>> engine to the transaxle/torque-converter assy in the rear.
>>
>
>Pontiac Tempest. (I don't know if Olds had a variant).  Tom
>

I stand corrected!
I called my brother and he told me about 5 minutes ago the same thing...
(It was his car!)
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Wed Jan  6 04:54:28 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:54:28 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread /turbo turbin
Message-ID: <mailman.31662.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Greg Hermann wrote:

> At the point just before
> the boost starts?
> >Long not isolated headers will lose a lot of the precius energy we have
> >when
> >we need it as most, when boost is starting ,
>
> Not if they are coated, inside and out and insulated--then the energy has
> nowhere to go!!
>
> Or maybe inject some water into the exhaust manifold when the throttle ix
> opened, but the turbo has not yet spooled up. This would increase the
> volume of the gasses greatly, even though dropping the temp. Prolly would
> act like a temporarily smaller nozzle for spool up!
>
> >the turbine?), then is better to have one of the smallest
> >exhaust housings on a big turbine wheel, I think this gives you not the
> >best peek efficiency but a wider aria.
>
> I will have to ponder on this one, may well be you are right. ( wide is good)
>
> >I have seen two stroke engines with tuned expansion cambers and turboes no
> >the end, tremendus output! Drag snowsleds with efi and tuned expansion
> >cambers and turbo.....WOW ---

RPM constant - variable transmission ---------------------- Tom

> This is awfully close to what I am talking about with a "pressure recovery
> accumulator"!! You givd me hope that one would work as I expect on a four
> stroke!!!
>
> Regards, Greg

You have to consider if you need spool up help or max efficiency under boost. In
my limited experience with a T04B on a 350 Chevy, the only time spool up was a
problem was full throttle acceleration from a standing start. That could have
been fixed by a loose converter, a transmission brake or just better brakes. The
GN boys have found a cure.

Above 2000 rpm steady state conditions, the boost gauge was hooked straight to
the throttle. No noticable lag at all under any conditions... smooth response
and boost. Throttle response was not as instantenous as the EFI on my NA motor,
henseforth, it would not go sideways if you wacked the throttle comming out of a
corner, just smooth power.  maybe easier to drive???

IMHO the large volume in the accumulator will have a very detrimental effect on
spool up. It may have an effect on max HP (efficiency) but we only run there at
WOT and high rpm like real racers.. down the back straight at Elkart Lake... but
most of the passing is done out of the corners.. except Nascar where all are
equal. I don't think you can have your cake with ice cream.

just another .02    Tom





From rotax at ludd.luth.se  Wed Jan  6 04:55:55 1999
From: rotax at ludd.luth.se (Daniel R. Henriksson)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:55:55 -0500
Subject: The Guts of LH-Jetronic...
Message-ID: <mailman.31663.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'm in the process of reverse-engineering the Bosch
LH-Jetronic ECU (0280 000 534) and are wondering if 
there is anyone out there who has done it before or 
has information to share or maybe wants to help??

The actual ECU can be found on Saab 9000 turbos,
the same family of ECUs has also been used on 
Volvos 700 and 240.

I have a partly commented dissasembly and have done 
some schematics research.

Best Regards 
Daniel Henriksson
rotax at ludd.luth.se


From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 05:45:15 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 00:45:15 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31664.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>
>I'm going to fabricate the manifold anyway, if I can find the blueprints
>for the OEM manifold/block/heads, much the way the "Buick Power Source"
>does for the Buick V6 engines (231/252 RWD series).  With this information,
>I can draw it into AutoCad and have three plates made - left head, right
>head, and valley cover, bolt them down, weld them together (braze
>actually), and fabricate intake runners to a large box.

Isn't the valley cover part of the gasket, not part of the manifold on a
B??? Been a while-- :-)
>
Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 05:47:32 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 00:47:32 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31665.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>Mucho better than trying to use grease to put in the counter
>>shaft bearings. The darn things always fall out
>
>Good advice, thank you.
>
a hard maple dowel close to the right size works pretty well, too--plus you
do not need an oxy-acetylene hacksaw to cut an old one to the shorter
length!!

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 05:52:20 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 00:52:20 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31666.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>They are fairly expensive in the US as well, and not that common.  If I
>were to consider that route, I'd dump the cash and go with the cummins
>deisel, just because the cost should be less, and certainly deisel can be
>used for towing :)
>
>Diesel I don't know, gas I do, so I think I'll stick with the 383 since I
>have it, and most of the EFI parts.  Should be a fun fabrication thing :)
>
>
Ahhh--but if you are gonna do that, find a 6CT (from a piece of heavy
equipment, or sumthin') instead of a 6BT like they use in the trucks--505
inches instedda 360--- hee hee--nuthin beats inches!! The C Cummins is only
two or three inches longer then the B!!

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 05:54:45 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 00:54:45 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31667.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Clarence Wood wrote:
>
>>   Does anybody know where a feller could get a banjo-type fitting?
>>
>
>make it IMHO --- looks like the brake line to caliper connection or the
>donut with a pipe used on
>top of the carb on old Paxton setups to connect the blower to the carb.
>Basically the turbine outlet faces a flat (or convex) surface with the
>flow going in all directions to be collected again and routed away 90 deg.
>from the inlet.    (I Think)

I think you are right Tom, but my thought is to make it with a tangential
pipe connection, rather than a radial one like the brake fittings or the
one in McInnes' picture! Again, 321 SS would be the material of choice.

Regards, Greg
>
>Regards  Tom




From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Jan  6 05:57:40 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 00:57:40 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31668.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ah yes.  As popularized in "My cousin Vinny", I believe it was a 65 or
66.

Shannen
diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> At 10:36 PM 1/5/99 -0600, you wrote:
> 
> >> That was an Oldsmobile... Not sure the year and model, but the "driveshaft"
> >> was a spring-steel shaft for flexibility and went from the Flywheel of the
> >> engine to the transaxle/torque-converter assy in the rear.
> >>
> >
> >Pontiac Tempest. (I don't know if Olds had a variant).  Tom
> >
> 
> I stand corrected!
> I called my brother and he told me about 5 minutes ago the same thing...
> (It was his car!)
> ===========================================================
>            David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>      Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>        I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
> ===========================================================



From georg at redxch.wcape.gov.za  Wed Jan  6 06:02:26 1999
From: georg at redxch.wcape.gov.za (Georg Lerm)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:02:26 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31669.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


If you chaps want pre-programmed micros I wouls be able to do them 
for you. I would have to do some investigation as to how much the 
devices would cost and of course the dreaded shipping costs. Most of 
the run of the mill device programmers will burn these micros. 
Nothing special needed. I use an expro 80 programmer which i bought 
back in '92 and that can program them.

All the components are standard. The LCD I used is I had in my junk 
box. Most standard type LCD's will work. Should be a 16 character 2 
line display capable of working in a 4-bit mode.

if you were use a display other than what I have listed, please 
remember to check the pinouts of the display. All the signal names 
should be the same. Might be a good idea to get a spec sheet.

I see that this particular display uses backlighting. My display did 
not have that future. One would have to make provision for that 
'cause there different types available. The LED type seems great, but 
sucks a lot of juice. A 9v 6LR6 type battery as known as a PP3 will 
last long.

I would suggest buying display without backlighting and a reflective 
type.THis type enables you to view the characters without 
backlighting. Usesless in bad light tough[almost dark]. I suppose 
bacllighting would be an anwer.

There is a pdf at the site Steve mentioned. have a look at that.
http://www.eio.com/cgi-bin/byteserver.pl/m1632.pdf

I would suggest using the L1682. It is reflective. Same working as 
the M1632. No backlighting circiut required.
 http://www.eio.com/cgi-bin/byteserver.pl/l1682.pdf


later....
Georg





Georg Lerm
Chief Technician
Clinical Engineering
Red Cross Hospital
Cape Town
South Africa
Tel. +27 21 658-5120
Fax. +27 21 658-5120


From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 06:06:09 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:06:09 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31670.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>On Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:45:05 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Yes, it helps the designer achieve 50/50 weight distribution, but there
>>>are other ways of doing it.  The Corvette engineers did it by putting
>the
>>>engine in the front and the transmission in the back.
>>>
>>Hey--all the Corvette guys did was copy. Alfa's "Alfetta" FI cars of the
>>late '40's did that before there even WAS a Corvette--Not to mention the
>>early Pontiac Tempests, with their "rubber band" driveshafts!!
>
>OK, Greg... I bow to your superior knowledge of vintage cars :)  The
>oldest thing I ever drove (besides some military vehicles) was my Dad's
>'67 Ambassador Wagon.

Hey, Ray--

My dad couldda whupped your dad :-)--he had a VERY late '64 GTO
tri-power/four speed/posi/two door SEDAN (post)--late summer '64, and late
enough that it got, from the factory, the '65, higher rise heads and
manifold, 360 HP 389 anna Muncie instedda a B/W T-10!! Boy, am I sorry that
one ever got away!! That was one QUICK mutha--the 64's were about 350
pounds lighter than the '65's, and the '65 tri-power engine was a WHOLE lot
more than 12 HP stronger than the '64's, which was what the factory
claimed!!
>
>I remember seeing something interesting at my favorite mechanic's shop.
>It was an automatic transmission and differential in one unit bolted
>between the rear wheels (independent rear suspension).  I believe that
>the torque converter was attached to the engine.  It was an American car
>from the '50s or '60s ('60s, I think).  Do you have any idea what it is?

'61--'62--maybe '63  Tempest automatic transaxle.
>
>I also remember seeing an old Lincoln that had a double-cardon on both
>ends of the driveshaft.  I had heard that having a double-cardon at both
>ends will allow the driveshaft to drop out of alignment, but the joints
>on the Lincoln were retained by some pieces of spring steel.

Caddy used to use CV drive-shaft joints like that too--quieter and
smoother, cuzza no accel/decel of the driveshaft as it rotates. There is a
little sphere and socket in the center that keeps 'em aligned. Mid '70's
Chevy full-time 4x4 trucks used a similar joint at the transfer case end of
their front drive shaft, too.

Regards, Greg
>
>Ray
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 06:08:10 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:08:10 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31671.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>At 10:07 PM 1/5/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>
>>I remember seeing something interesting at my favorite mechanic's shop.
>>It was an automatic transmission and differential in one unit bolted
>>between the rear wheels (independent rear suspension).  I believe that
>>the torque converter was attached to the engine.  It was an American car
>>from the '50s or '60s ('60s, I think).  Do you have any idea what it is?
>
>That was an Oldsmobile... Not sure the year and model, but the "driveshaft"
>was a spring-steel shaft for flexibility and went from the Flywheel of the
>engine to the transaxle/torque-converter assy in the rear.

I dint know the early Cutlass was that much of a Tempest clone!!

Greg
>
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>===========================================================




From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 06:12:27 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:12:27 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31672.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 10:49 PM
>Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor
>
>Nope, think ya need another cup of coffee, the PW is just more accurate.
>One less computation/average.  If your doing a point by point comparasion
>the pw is more accurate, IMHO
>Bruce
>
>
>>>> Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
>>>>
>>>> On this subject, what is it that we really want to
>>>> measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?
>>>>
>>Duty cycle relates to horsepower, pulsewidth to torque--which do you wanna
>>know??
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>What for more coffe--to pour on Doc??

Duty cycle=fuel per unit time, which relates to work per unit time, which
is what horsepower is.

Pulse Width = fuel per revolution, which relates to work per revolution,
which comes down to torque.

Where am I wrong here??

Regards, Greg




From racing_ecu at gmx.net  Wed Jan  6 06:15:41 1999
From: racing_ecu at gmx.net (Claus Christensen)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:15:41 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31673.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ezra,

as far as I know it is not possible to just change the Lambda sensor because
your standard ECU or some attachement of it includes special electronics to
amplify the tiny signal the sensor provides  that is special to the type of
sensor used. So when you change the sensor you ecu would probably confuse
lambda readings and consequently would not be working.
Things are different if you use some programmable ECU like our EFI332
project. Then you can talk to the folks you got it from about which sensor
to choose.
If you just want to view the lambda readings there are some (quite
expensive) devices on the market that come with an additional wide-band
sensor to mount in the exaust. They will show you the current lambda on a
LCD screen.

All the best,

Claus



From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 06:16:08 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:16:08 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31674.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>At 08:32 PM 1/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>> Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
>>>>
>>>> On this subject, what is it that we really want to
>>>> measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?
>>>>
>>Duty cycle relates to horsepower, pulsewidth to torque--which do you wanna
>>know??
>
>Huh?
>Duty cycle is the ratio of on to off time of the injector...

Yep, which is fuel quantity per unit time, which relates directly to work
per unit time, which is what horsepower is.

 this you need
>to know so you don't have to run your injectors static at WOT and Max
>RPM...

Pulsewidth will tell you how long the injector is open so you know
>how much fuel is being injected...

Fuel quantity per revolution, which relates real directly to torque.

I agree with what you say about what you are checking for, tho.

Regards, Greg
>
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>===========================================================




From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 06:20:49 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:20:49 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread /turbo turbin
Message-ID: <mailman.31675.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>
>IMHO the large volume in the accumulator will have a very detrimental effect on
>spool up.

I'm ONLY talking about an accumulator with MAYBE 1/2 engine revolution
worth of exhaust volume storage, not a waste heat recovery muffler---

Greg
>
>just another .02    Tom




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Wed Jan  6 06:47:22 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:47:22 -0500
Subject: GM P6 PCM Info
Message-ID: <mailman.31676.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Just uploaded the pinout for the GM P6 PCM to the incoming dir...
File name is: GM_P6_pin.rtf  It's in Rich Text Format.

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com  Wed Jan  6 08:20:38 1999
From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 03:20:38 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31677.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> Ah yes.  As popularized in "My cousin Vinny", I believe it was a 65 or
> 66.
> 
Close, guys, but the flexi-shaft swing axle Tempests were 61-61, maybe
even 60, but for sure 64 and up were live axle and very conventional.
   BTW the Olds F85/Cutlass and Buick Skylark were closely related, but
i don't know if they used the swing axle/transaxle setup or not.
   Interesting (to me) side note to tese cars is that this is where
Buick intro'd the old aluminum 215 V8, which would become the 231 V6 we
all know and love.  Even better is that Oldsmobile offered both an NA
and a turbocharged version of that engine, complete with some kind of
anti-detonant fluid injection! And this was still no later than '63, as
in '64 all these cars became standard A-bodies, sharing a platform with
the '64 Chevelle.

Had to jump in...

Aaron

ICQ # 27386985
   

> > >> That was an Oldsmobile... Not sure the year and model, but the "driveshaft"
> > >> was a spring-steel shaft for flexibility and went from the Flywheel of the
> > >> engine to the transaxle/torque-converter assy in the rear.
> > >>
> > >
> > >Pontiac Tempest. (I don't know if Olds had a variant).  Tom
> > >
> >
> > I stand corrected!
> > I called my brother and he told me about 5 minutes ago the same thing...
> > (It was his car!)


From ehall at together.net  Wed Jan  6 11:17:28 1999
From: ehall at together.net (Ezra Hall)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:17:28 -0500
Subject: Wide Band O2
Message-ID: <mailman.31678.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce,
 Thank you for the response. I have already built an LED meter to monitor
Lambda sensor operation. My problem is locating a Lambda sensor itself that
will cover a wider range of Lambda. The stock sensor covers a very narrow
range, at least that is what I have read and observed. I want coverage to
Lambda=.86,A/F=12.6:1, MAX POWER. I have heard that newer Hondas use a wider
band Lambda sensor so they can run more lean, anyone know? I think these are
4-wire Lambda sensors, 2 for the heater, 2 for the sensor element.
Thanks!
 Ezra
ehall at together.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
To: ehall at together.net <ehall at together.net>
Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 9:15 PM
Subject: Wide Band O2


>Lots of stuff in the archives for building one, but no one has done that
>yet.  Project name was EGOR.  If ya want a hand holler.  I can't offer
>much maybe just where to look for some stuff.
>  Best of Luck Bruce
>
>



From joelsmama at tpgi.com.au  Wed Jan  6 12:33:22 1999
From: joelsmama at tpgi.com.au (Niki Albury)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:33:22 -0500
Subject: Delco 639
Message-ID: <mailman.31679.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi all

Have any of you guys come accross a DELCO 16208639???
they have no memcal......same size as a 165/808
They come out od the 94 Holden Barina 1.4 Auto

Justin



From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan  6 12:38:45 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:38:45 -0500
Subject: Wide Band O2
Message-ID: <mailman.31680.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ezra Hall <ehall at together.net>
To: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
Cc: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: Wide Band O2

I just told ya the Archives talk all about a true wiide range sensor under
the
name EGOR.  It uses the Honda sensor.  Do a search under EGOR
Bruce


>Bruce,
> Thank you for the response. I have already built an LED meter to monitor
>Lambda sensor operation. My problem is locating a Lambda sensor itself that
>will cover a wider range of Lambda. The stock sensor covers a very narrow
>range, at least that is what I have read and observed. I want coverage to
>Lambda=.86,A/F=12.6:1, MAX POWER. I have heard that newer Hondas use a
wider
>band Lambda sensor so they can run more lean, anyone know? I think these
are
>4-wire Lambda sensors, 2 for the heater, 2 for the sensor element.
>Thanks!
> Ezra
>ehall at together.net
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
>To: ehall at together.net <ehall at together.net>
>Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 9:15 PM
>Subject: Wide Band O2
>
>
>>Lots of stuff in the archives for building one, but no one has done that
>>yet.  Project name was EGOR.  If ya want a hand holler.  I can't offer
>>much maybe just where to look for some stuff.
>>  Best of Luck Bruce
>>
>>
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan  6 12:50:30 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:50:30 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31681.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor


>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
>>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>>Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 10:49 PM
>>Subject: Re: Injector Duty Monitor
>>
>>Nope, think ya need another cup of coffee, the PW is just more accurate.
>>One less computation/average.  If your doing a point by point comparasion
>>the pw is more accurate, IMHO
>>Bruce
>>
>>
>>>>> Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
>>>>>
>>>>> On this subject, what is it that we really want to
>>>>> measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?
>>>>>
>>>Duty cycle relates to horsepower, pulsewidth to torque--which do you
wanna
>>>know??
>>>
>>>Regards, Greg
>>>
>>>What for more coffe--to pour on Doc??
>
>Duty cycle=fuel per unit time, which relates to work per unit time, which
>is what horsepower is.
>
>Pulse Width = fuel per revolution, which relates to work per revolution,
>which comes down to torque.
>
>Where am I wrong here??

Not that your wrong, just why would it matter?.  I started off asking for
just a way to read Pulse width..  The cup of coffee comment was meant as a
take a break, at times around here seems like things get
analysed to death, when all that thought ain't needed.
  For approximate stuff a dwell meter works fine, and diacom works on many
things, so the only stuff left is what diacom won't work on,
that you need accuracy, is working on a C-3.
Bruce

>
>Regards, Greg
>
>



From gderian at cybergate.net  Wed Jan  6 13:20:36 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:20:36 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31682.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Corvairs also had that setup, after all, they shared chassis with the 61-63
Tempest.  There are lots more Corvair parts around since they were in
production thru '69.

BTW, I don't think its fair to say the Corvette guys copied the Alfa.  There
are only so many solutions to where to put the engine/trans/drive wheels.
Just because the Corvette guys chose the same solution as the
Alfa/Porsche/Ferrari etc. doesn't mean they copied.

Chassis design hasn't really progressed much in the last 40 years.  Today,
cars have much stiffer chassis and more attention is paid to toe change from
cornering loads and suspension travel.  Modern tires have high cornering
stiffness and are more sensitive to toe and steering angles (which is why
suspension designs pay more attention to those things) but the basics are
the same.  The good stuff from the 50's is pretty good.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>>
>>I remember seeing something interesting at my favorite mechanic's shop.
>>It was an automatic transmission and differential in one unit bolted
>>between the rear wheels (independent rear suspension).  I believe that
>>the torque converter was attached to the engine.  It was an American car
>>from the '50s or '60s ('60s, I think).  Do you have any idea what it is?
>
>'61--'62--maybe '63  Tempest automatic transaxle.
>>




From ECMnut at aol.com  Wed Jan  6 13:50:52 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:50:52 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31683.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/5/99 10:36:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

> 
>  Honda VTEC's use an NGK which is way superior to the Bosch unit.

Is this a wide range sensor, and which models/engines used it?
Thanks,
Mike V


From ECMnut at aol.com  Wed Jan  6 13:57:33 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:57:33 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31684.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/6/99 8:33:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gderian at cybergate.net writes:

> Corvairs also had that setup, after all, they shared chassis with the 61-63
>  Tempest.  There are lots more Corvair parts around since they were in
>  production thru '69.

Gary,
what type of powertrain did the tempest use?  
I though the Tempests were front engine..
Thanks,
Mike V


From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 14:08:16 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:08:16 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31685.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>   Interesting (to me) side note to tese cars is that this is where
>Buick intro'd the old aluminum 215 V8, which would become the 231 V6 we
>all know and love.

And before it morphed into that,or the Rover V-8, there were a bunch of 255
inch versions, built by Traco, among others, which powered the very first
Can-Am type cars!!

Regards, Greg




From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Wed Jan  6 14:11:20 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:11:20 -0500
Subject: GM P6 PCM Info
Message-ID: <mailman.31686.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> Just uploaded the pinout for the GM P6 PCM to the incoming dir...
-> File name is: GM_P6_pin.rtf  It's in Rich Text Format.

 Um.  Okay.

 Why didn't you use plain old ASCII so everyone could read it?
                                                                                                                     


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Wed Jan  6 14:42:29 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:42:29 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31687.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Raymond C Drouillard wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:45:05 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
> >
> >>
> >>Yes, it helps the designer achieve 50/50 weight distribution, but there
> >>are other ways of doing it.  The Corvette engineers did it by putting
> the
> >>engine in the front and the transmission in the back.
> >>
> >Hey--all the Corvette guys did was copy. Alfa's "Alfetta" FI cars of the
> >late '40's did that before there even WAS a Corvette--Not to mention the
> >early Pontiac Tempests, with their "rubber band" driveshafts!!
> 
> OK, Greg... I bow to your superior knowledge of vintage cars :)  The
> oldest thing I ever drove (besides some military vehicles) was my Dad's
> '67 Ambassador Wagon.
> 
> I remember seeing something interesting at my favorite mechanic's shop.
> It was an automatic transmission and differential in one unit bolted
> between the rear wheels (independent rear suspension).  I believe that
> the torque converter was attached to the engine.  It was an American car
> from the '50s or '60s ('60s, I think).  Do you have any idea what it is?
> 
> I also remember seeing an old Lincoln that had a double-cardon on both
> ends of the driveshaft.  I had heard that having a double-cardon at both
> ends will allow the driveshaft to drop out of alignment, but the joints
> on the Lincoln were retained by some pieces of spring steel.
> 
> Ray
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
The transaxle was almost definitely a tempest (baby pontiac) of the
early sixties.
As for the double cardon joints on the Lincolns, they were a GENUINE
pain in the posterior. Virtually impossible to rebuild with any level of
success, and expensive as the dickens.


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Wed Jan  6 14:45:15 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:45:15 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31688.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> That was an Oldsmobile... Not sure the year and model, but the "driveshaft"
> was a spring-steel shaft for flexibility and went from the Flywheel of the
> engine to the transaxle/torque-converter assy in the rear.
> 
> ===========================================================
>            David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>      Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>        I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
> ===========================================================
Olds F85 was twin to the Tempest. Buick had a twin too, but it was, to
the best of my knowledge, conventional in power-train layout.


From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Wed Jan  6 15:07:01 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:07:01 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31689.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Tom Sharpe wrote:

> > >It was an automatic transmission and differential in one unit bolted
> > >between the rear wheels (independent rear suspension).  I believe that
> > >the torque converter was attached to the engine.  It was an American car
> > >from the '50s or '60s ('60s, I think).  Do you have any idea what it is?
> >
> > That was an Oldsmobile... Not sure the year and model, but the "driveshaft"
> > was a spring-steel shaft for flexibility and went from the Flywheel of the
> > engine to the transaxle/torque-converter assy in the rear.
> >
> 
> Pontiac Tempest. (I don't know if Olds had a variant).  Tom
> 
> 
Buick olds and Pontiac compacts in the early 1960s were fairly similar and
used a setup like this, based on the powerglide 2 speed. Pontiac cobbled
together a 4 speed version for racing but it was never very plentiful.
Corvair transaxles were similar in layout also except the engine was
bolted onto the rear.




From clive at problem.tantech.com  Wed Jan  6 15:13:09 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:13:09 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31690.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> In a message dated 1/6/99 8:33:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> gderian at cybergate.net writes:
> 
> > Corvairs also had that setup, after all, they shared chassis with the 61-63
> >  Tempest.  There are lots more Corvair parts around since they were in
> >  production thru '69.

Corvairs did not have this setup
they we rear engine mid tranmission/drive case like VW and Porsche

Clive 

> 
> Gary,
> what type of powertrain did the tempest use?  
> I though the Tempests were front engine..
> Thanks,
> Mike V



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Wed Jan  6 15:14:46 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:14:46 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31691.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> Ah yes.  As popularized in "My cousin Vinny", I believe it was a 65 or
> 66.
> 
> Shannen
> diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> >
> > At 10:36 PM 1/5/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> > >> That was an Oldsmobile... Not sure the year and model, but the "driveshaft"
> > >> was a spring-steel shaft for flexibility and went from the Flywheel of the
> > >> engine to the transaxle/torque-converter assy in the rear.
> > >>
> > >
> > >Pontiac Tempest. (I don't know if Olds had a variant).  Tom
> > >
> >
> > I stand corrected!
> > I called my brother and he told me about 5 minutes ago the same thing...
> > (It was his car!)
> > ===========================================================
> >            David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
> >      Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
> >        I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
> > ===========================================================
Just checked the "bible" - the "standard catalog of American cars" and
found the '61 and '62 tempest with the "rope" driveshaft. '64 was a
different design - may have had the same trans, but I do not think so.
The F85 of the same years used the same basic body and pan, but
different power train. The buick was basically the same car as the olds,
with minor changes and an available V6 in '62. No mention of the unique
power-train layout on either Buick or Olds. It was my recollection that
only the Indy Four (half 389) was so equipped. The transmission was
known as the "TempesTorque". It "appears" only the 4 cyl automatic was
so equipped. Neither Olds, nor Buick, offered this combination (4 cyl
automatic) and all 6 and 8 cyl tempests used HydraMatic trans for
automatic .


From gderian at cybergate.net  Wed Jan  6 15:15:27 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:15:27 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31692.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The '61-63 F-85 Cutlass and Skylark were front engine V-8 or V-6 ('62) live
rear axle.  The Tempest was front engine slant 4 (1/2 of a 389) with the
rope drive and rear transaxle and shared the rear swing axle
suspension/transaxle with the Corvair.  I was very liberal with my use of
"shared" chassis.  Some parts are common.  The BOP's were unit body thru
'63.  In 64, they all went conventional body on frame front engine/rear
drive.  The Corvair, of course remained a unit body.

BTW, Repco (Jack Brabbham, Australia) used the 215 V-8 as a basis for a
Formula 1 engine using OHC heads.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>> Corvairs also had that setup, after all, they shared chassis with the
61-63
>>  Tempest.  There are lots more Corvair parts around since they were in
>>  production thru '69.
>
>Gary,
>what type of powertrain did the tempest use?
>I though the Tempests were front engine..
>Thanks,
>Mike V



From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Wed Jan  6 15:25:56 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:25:56 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31693.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Isn't the valley cover part of the gasket, not part of the manifold on a
>B??? Been a while-- :-)

On the buick, no.  But on the 383 B block, yes, but there's nothing
stopping me from making a one piece unit.  Looks easily enough.


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Wed Jan  6 15:26:43 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:26:43 -0500
Subject: GM P6 PCM Info
Message-ID: <mailman.31694.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Why didn't you use plain old ASCII so everyone could read it?

Because ASCII is not the standard anymore.  Anything windows is :)

<grin>


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-


From kenkelly at lucent.com  Wed Jan  6 15:34:28 1999
From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:34:28 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31695.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Boy this thread is bouncing around.

	The corvair had a transaxle, but was a rear engined pancake
6.

	The Pontiac tempest Buick Special, and Olds f85 shared
sheet metal, but not drive train. The Buick and F85 had a
normal transmission/rear, while the tempest had a rear
mounted transaxle with a flexible torque tube type
connection from the engine.

	The corvair and tempest didn't share a chassis.
		Ken

ECMnut at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 1/6/99 8:33:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> gderian at cybergate.net writes:
> 
> > Corvairs also had that setup, after all, they shared chassis with the 61-63
> >  Tempest.  There are lots more Corvair parts around since they were in
> >  production thru '69.
> 
> Gary,
> what type of powertrain did the tempest use?
> I though the Tempests were front engine..
> Thanks,
> Mike V


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Wed Jan  6 15:35:44 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:35:44 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31696.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote:
> 
> >
> > In a message dated 1/6/99 8:33:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > gderian at cybergate.net writes:
> >
> > > Corvairs also had that setup, after all, they shared chassis with the 61-63
> > >  Tempest.  There are lots more Corvair parts around since they were in
> > >  production thru '69.
> 
> Corvairs did not have this setup
> they we rear engine mid tranmission/drive case like VW and Porsche
> 
> Clive
> 
> >
> > Gary,
> > what type of powertrain did the tempest use?
> > I though the Tempests were front engine..
> > Thanks,
> > Mike V
The corvair transaxle was VERY similar to the tempest unit, turned end
for end and connected by a flexible shaft. I believe many parts were
interchangeable.


From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan  6 15:36:55 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:36:55 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31697.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>In a message dated 1/5/99 10:36:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
>writes:
>
>>
>>  Honda VTEC's use an NGK which is way superior to the Bosch unit.
>
>Is this a wide range sensor, and which models/engines used it?

Yes, it is wide range, and very quick response. VTEC engines. Honda part #
is in archives within last 10 weeks or so. Controlling it is not a simple
matter.
Jobber cost from Honda is in $110 USD range.

Regards, Greg

>Thanks,
>Mike V




From dhigh at hitachi-eu.com  Wed Jan  6 15:59:04 1999
From: dhigh at hitachi-eu.com (David-HMSE Higham)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:59:04 -0500
Subject: MAF and VE
Message-ID: <mailman.31698.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

     I'm looking into using a MAF as opposed to a MAP sensor. Could someone 
     confirm my thoughts that the value of air flow obtained from the 
     sensor, when compensated by MAT and BP can be used directly to 
     calculate injected fuel mass. (No need to worry about VE?) Am I 
     missing something?
     
     Thanks,
     
     Dave


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Wed Jan  6 16:13:44 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:13:44 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31699.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



ECMnut at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 1/5/99 10:36:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
> writes:
> 
> >
> >  Honda VTEC's use an NGK which is way superior to the Bosch unit.
> 
> Is this a wide range sensor, and which models/engines used it?
> Thanks,
> Mike V

If you guys go back to the archives, and do a search for "egor" you'll
come up with lots of information about wide range O2 sensors,
specifically the Honda one, used on VX (high mileage lean burn) Civics. 
It's available from the Honda dealer for $140 or so, but requires
special electronics.  A former list member had done quite a bit of
research on it, reading patents, etc.  It certainly sounded like a
doable project  if someone wants to pick up the ball...

--steve


From clive at problem.tantech.com  Wed Jan  6 16:37:10 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:37:10 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31700.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> If you guys go back to the archives, and do a search for "egor" you'll
> come up with lots of information about wide range O2 sensors,
> specifically the Honda one, used on VX (high mileage lean burn) Civics. 
> It's available from the Honda dealer for $140 or so, but requires
> special electronics.  A former list member had done quite a bit of
> research on it, reading patents, etc.  It certainly sounded like a
> doable project  if someone wants to pick up the ball...

I just read something that said the Jeep/Eagle
cars use a Titanium based
wide range O2 unit
could be cheaper that Honda Parts

Clive 


From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Wed Jan  6 17:01:30 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:01:30 -0500
Subject: GM P6 PCM Info
Message-ID: <mailman.31701.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> > Why didn't you use plain old ASCII so everyone could read it?

-> Because ASCII is not the standard anymore.  Anything windows is :)

"windows"?

 Where do I set that up in .bashrc?
 


From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Wed Jan  6 17:30:29 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:30:29 -0500
Subject: Banjo Turbine Discharge (was Water Injection Thread)
Message-ID: <mailman.31702.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  I have a friend in England who is into turbos.  Will ask him if he can dig up some information.

At 03:04 PM 1/5/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Clarence Wood wrote:
>> 
>> At 08:45 AM 1/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> (snip)
>> >I think the REAL unexplored gain is in (more efficient) pressure recovery
>> >from the Mach .75 velocity in the gas spiral at the turbine outlet, though.
>> >The circumferential component of the flow in that gas is distinctly greater
>> >than the axial component. Some way of straightening the helical flow out,
>> >and turning all (more) of that velocity back into static pressure would
>> >truly be a FREE increase in the pressure ratio across the turbine, with all
>> >of the performance improvements that that implies!!! Plus, I do not think
>> >that a device for doing it would take up all that much space! Also, no
>> >moving parts involved and decently low temps, so ALMOST as reliable as
>> >taxes!
>> >>
>> >Greg
>> 
>>   I was just reading about the "Banjo-type" turbine discharge, in Hugh MacInnes's Turbochargers.  On page 72 he states that Dennis Sevier, Chief Engineer of Bristol replaced an elbow, which cost power on acceleration and at top end, with the banjo-type fitting and found that it "worked at least as well as a straight exhaust".
>>   Does anybody know where a feller could get a banjo-type fitting?
>> IZCC #3426
>>  1982 280ZX Turbo GL
>>  1966 El Camino
>>  1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle
>>  1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine)
>>  1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower
>> Clarence Wood
>> Software&Such...
>> clarencewood at centuryinter.net
>> Savannah, TN.
>Damn, Clarence, you beat me to that one.  This is something I'm very
>interested in too - any leads??
>
>Aaron
>
>ICQ # 27386985
>
>


From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com  Wed Jan  6 17:33:52 1999
From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:33:52 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31703.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ken is completely correct. I've owned many corvairs, they shared nothing
with any Buick. they did not have a chassis either. they were all rear
engined flat -6's with a transaxle.

I believe the early Buick special did have some unique features, while the
engine was in front, and it had a usual rear axle, I think the auto trans
was mounted in the rear. There was something real unique about it, but I'm
not a Buick guy.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ken Kelly [SMTP:kenkelly at lucent.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, January 06, 1999 7:29 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Water Injection Thread
> 
> Boy this thread is bouncing around.
> 
> 	The corvair had a transaxle, but was a rear engined pancake
> 6.
> 
> 	The Pontiac tempest Buick Special, and Olds f85 shared
> sheet metal, but not drive train. The Buick and F85 had a
> normal transmission/rear, while the tempest had a rear
> mounted transaxle with a flexible torque tube type
> connection from the engine.
> 
> 	The corvair and tempest didn't share a chassis.
> 		Ken
> 
> ECMnut at aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > In a message dated 1/6/99 8:33:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > gderian at cybergate.net writes:
> > 
> > > Corvairs also had that setup, after all, they shared chassis with the
> 61-63
> > >  Tempest.  There are lots more Corvair parts around since they were in
> > >  production thru '69.
> > 
> > Gary,
> > what type of powertrain did the tempest use?
> > I though the Tempests were front engine..
> > Thanks,
> > Mike V


From kenkelly at lucent.com  Wed Jan  6 17:41:12 1999
From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:41:12 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31704.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Pontiac had a factory back drag car in 61 or 62 that used a
389 V8 with a rear transaxle. Ive seen it in a magazine
article, but it wasn't a regular production car. I think the
pontiac overhead Cam 6 came after the rear transaxle was
discontinued.

		Ken


Clarence L.Snyder wrote:

> Just checked the "bible" - the "standard catalog of American cars" and
> found the '61 and '62 tempest with the "rope" driveshaft. '64 was a
> different design - may have had the same trans, but I do not think so.
> The F85 of the same years used the same basic body and pan, but
> different power train. The buick was basically the same car as the olds,
> with minor changes and an available V6 in '62. No mention of the unique
> power-train layout on either Buick or Olds. It was my recollection that
> only the Indy Four (half 389) was so equipped. The transmission was
> known as the "TempesTorque". It "appears" only the 4 cyl automatic was
> so equipped. Neither Olds, nor Buick, offered this combination (4 cyl
> automatic) and all 6 and 8 cyl tempests used HydraMatic trans for
> automatic .


From Tedscj at aol.com  Wed Jan  6 17:49:23 1999
From: Tedscj at aol.com (Tedscj at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:49:23 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31705.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/6/99 12:38:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
StowT at PerkinsCoie.com writes:

<< I believe the early Buick special did have some unique features, while the
 engine was in front, and it had a usual rear axle, I think the auto trans
 was mounted in the rear. There was something real unique about it, but I'm
 not a Buick guy.
  >>
Having owned a '62 Buick Skylark, the unusual features (for the time) were
unibody construction (which was derived from the Corvair) and the Aluminum V8.
The shipping weight for this "midsize" American car was only 2700lbs!  It had
an auto mated to the engine in the typical way.
The Olds F85 was the same, and the Pontiac Tempest had unibody, Front engine
(half of a V8) and a trans. in the rear with a flexible driveshaft (my dad had
one of those.)

Ted


From pford at qnx.com  Wed Jan  6 18:06:20 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:06:20 -0500
Subject: GM P6 PCM Info
Message-ID: <mailman.31706.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Dave Williams wrote:

> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:47:00 -0500
> From: Dave Williams <dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: GM P6 PCM Info
> 
> 
> -> > Why didn't you use plain old ASCII so everyone could read it?
> 
> -> Because ASCII is not the standard anymore.  Anything windows is :)
> 
> "windows"?
> 

thats what my kid uses for games ( hes only 7 so I cut him some slack)

>  Where do I set that up in .bashrc?

you need to add a crap section at the end and don't forget to 
add in shutdown (aka reboot). the main failing of doing this
is the lack of the pretty blue screen   8*))


Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From rauscher at icst.com  Wed Jan  6 18:16:03 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:16:03 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31707.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



First, apologies to Georg for incorrect credits...

OK, it seems as though having both the ability to measure
both pulse width and duty cycle is desired.

A couple of folks have the capability to burn PIC's.
(Orin & Georg)

And, I believe Christian commented that he might have
some time to add the duty cycle if desired. Also mentioned
that he has a circuit to burn PIC's. 


So, one, do we really need the duty cycle measurement?
I'm still kinda' new to this, so I'm not sure how
important this is.


Two, do we want to do a group purchase/burn? Or, just on
an individual basis?


Myself, I figure that this can be a handy tool, I don't
really relish the thought of dragging out the scope
every time I want to check injector pulse width. Besides,
how to drive and run a scope at the same time!


BobR.


--




From EdDSP at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jan  6 18:28:30 1999
From: EdDSP at ix.netcom.com (Ed)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:28:30 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31708.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

re: wideband lambda sensor in Hondas

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> Yes, it is wide range, and very quick response. VTEC engines. Honda part #
> is in archives within last 10 weeks or so. Controlling it is not a simple
> matter.
> Jobber cost from Honda is in $110 USD range.

	More specific, 92-95 VTEC-E engines, which were designed for fuel
economy instead of power. 

-Ed


From mgr at mgrcorp.com  Wed Jan  6 18:39:39 1999
From: mgr at mgrcorp.com (Gwyn Reedy)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:39:39 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31709.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I don't remember it that way.

Chevy had the rear engine Corvair.
Pontiac had the 'half of a 389 V8' 4 cyl with rear transaxle and the
driveshaft you saw.
Olds and Buick had the 215 aluminum V8 with conventional transmission and
rear end technology.

The Pontiac transaxle shared a lot of components with the Corvair transaxle.

Gwyn Reedy
Brandon, Florida
mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Greg
> Hermann
> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 1:05 AM
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread

>
> >At 10:07 PM 1/5/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>I remember seeing something interesting at my favorite mechanic's shop.
> >>It was an automatic transmission and differential in one unit bolted
> >>between the rear wheels (independent rear suspension).  I believe that
> >>the torque converter was attached to the engine.  It was an American car
> >>from the '50s or '60s ('60s, I think).  Do you have any idea what it is?
> >
> >That was an Oldsmobile... Not sure the year and model, but the
> "driveshaft"
> >was a spring-steel shaft for flexibility and went from the
> Flywheel of the
> >engine to the transaxle/torque-converter assy in the rear.
>
> I dint know the early Cutlass was that much of a Tempest clone!!
>
> Greg
> >
> >===========================================================
> >           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
> >     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
> >       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be
> approximated.
> >===========================================================
>
>



From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Wed Jan  6 20:11:10 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:11:10 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31710.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  Several years ago I read an article on the design of a collector for V8's that produced a bolt-on 20 hp increase.  I thought the idea was very slick:  pair the tubes to their 180 out partner, baffle their exit into the collector.  In other words:  as tube #1 was pushing out exhaust the cylinder that tube #2 was servicing was on the power stroke;  as tube #2 started to extract it was helped by the vacuum created by the extraction of tube #1 which had just finished.
  My question is: why can't this be applied to the header of a turbo'd engine: pre-turbo.  I know that the turbine is already turning and therefor creating a vacuum; but, at velocities reaching .75 mach, wouldn't any tuning, like using the 180 out exhaust arrangement help??  I don't think the header tubes would have to be lengthened to any great extent but, the baffling would have to be in place.  Also, wouldn't the pairing of 180 out tubes help to more efficiently direct the vacuum created by the turbine?

Just a thought....


IZCC #3426
 1982 280ZX Turbo GL
 1966 El Camino
 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle
 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine)
 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower
Clarence Wood
Software&Such...
clarencewood at centuryinter.net
Savannah, TN.


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Wed Jan  6 20:37:50 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:37:50 -0500
Subject: difference between 16136965 and 1227747
Message-ID: <mailman.31711.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Comparing the ECM pinouts of these two, there are only a few
differences:

Cannister purge:  6965 has it, 747 doesn't.  How does cannister purge
work in 747?

AIR diverter:  747 doesn't have it.  Do the trucks have an AIR pump?  Or
just no diverter?

A/C relay:  the 747 has this marked "EAC solenoid".  Is that a misprint,
and it should be "AC relay"?  The 747 schematic shows it as a solenoid,
not a relay.

Power steering pressure:  Guess the truck doesn't have this either.

IAT:  747 is unused.  Isn't IAT needed to calculate air density?

Motivation for asking is (1) to convert my S-10 from 6965 to 747 and
participate in prog 101, and (2), to get rid of the AIR pump, which
makes it very difficult to get to stuff on the pass side of the engine. 
I have to replace an exhaust gasket on that side anyway, if I can dump
the AIR that'd be great.  In this application, AIR pumps only to the
passenger manifold anyway, not to the drivers side or to the cat.

thanks,

--steve


From wsherwin at idirect.com  Wed Jan  6 21:32:53 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:32:53 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31712.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The same UEGO sensor, with controller box, can be purchased directly from
NGK (USA).  The only drawback is that the voltage output from the box is
nonlinear with respect to Lamda.  So,  you have to either develope your own
Lamda/V curve, or use their approximate tranform chart.  Once "dialed in"
the response and accuracy are excellent, over quite a wide Lambda range.





-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?


>>In a message dated 1/5/99 10:36:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bearbvd at sni.net
>>writes:
>>
>>>
>>>  Honda VTEC's use an NGK which is way superior to the Bosch unit.
>>
>>Is this a wide range sensor, and which models/engines used it?
>
>Yes, it is wide range, and very quick response. VTEC engines. Honda part #
>is in archives within last 10 weeks or so. Controlling it is not a simple
>matter.
>Jobber cost from Honda is in $110 USD range.
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>>Thanks,
>>Mike V
>
>



From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Wed Jan  6 21:45:33 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:45:33 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31713.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I am interested in this thread as I would like to understand better the
dynamics of a turbocharged engine.  It was always my understanding that the
reason for a header over a manifold (in a turbo application)was to equalize
the pressures at the ports,,,not for any kind of scavenging effect because
there is pressure in the exhaust before the turbo usually equalling the intake
pressure(I'm not concerned with how fast the turbo spools up at this point of
the thread,,,, only with what is happening at full boost)  I guess my question
is how could there possibly be scavenging if the exhaust has 15lbs of
backpressure(for a number)???????Greg???Anyone???
-Carl Summers

In a message dated 1/6/99 12:14:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
clarencewood at centuryinter.net writes:

<< Subj:	 Turbo header design
 Date:	1/6/99 12:14:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 CC:	bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann), darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
 
   Several years ago I read an article on the design of a collector for V8's
that produced a bolt-on 20 hp increase.  I thought the idea was very slick:
pair the tubes to their 180 out partner, baffle their exit into the collector.
In other words:  as tube #1 was pushing out exhaust the cylinder that tube #2
was servicing was on the power stroke;  as tube #2 started to extract it was
helped by the vacuum created by the extraction of tube #1 which had just
finished.
   My question is: why can't this be applied to the header of a turbo'd
engine: pre-turbo.  I know that the turbine is already turning and therefor
creating a vacuum; but, at velocities reaching .75 mach, wouldn't any tuning,
like using the 180 out exhaust arrangement help??  I don't think the header
tubes would have to be lengthened to any great extent but, the baffling would
have to be in place.  Also, wouldn't the pairing of 180 out tubes help to more
efficiently direct the vacuum created by the turbine?
 
 Just a thought....
 
 
 IZCC #3426
  1982 280ZX Turbo GL
  1966 El Camino
  1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle
  1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine)
  1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower
 Clarence Wood
 Software&Such...
 clarencewood at centuryinter.net
 Savannah, TN.
 
  >>


From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com  Wed Jan  6 21:50:05 1999
From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:50:05 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31714.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> 
> I don't remember it that way.
> 
> Chevy had the rear engine Corvair.
> Pontiac had the 'half of a 389 V8' 4 cyl with rear transaxle and the
> driveshaft you saw.
> Olds and Buick had the 215 aluminum V8 with conventional transmission and
> rear end technology.
> 
<SNIP>

Pontiac also ofered the 389 V8 in the early Tempest at some point, as
well as several versions of the slant four (4bbl carb etc).
  Not sure about 6 cyl. though.
   BTW I earlier wrote that swing axle cars were 61-61....should have
read 61-63.

Aaron

ICQ #27386985


From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan  6 22:05:18 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:05:18 -0500
Subject: MAF and VE
Message-ID: <mailman.31715.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: David-HMSE Higham <dhigh at hitachi-eu.com>
To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 11:29 AM
Subject: MAF and VE

In the archives are pages upon pages of MAP/MAF stuff.  All the up and down
sides, are pretty well covered.  Doinn a search under MAP MAF VE Gram/sec
tables, will give ya lots of data
Bruce


>     I'm looking into using a MAF as opposed to a MAP sensor. Could someone
>     confirm my thoughts that the value of air flow obtained from the
>     sensor, when compensated by MAT and BP can be used directly to
>     calculate injected fuel mass. (No need to worry about VE?) Am I
>     missing something?
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Dave
>



From kenkelly at lucent.com  Wed Jan  6 22:07:24 1999
From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:07:24 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31716.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I haven't been involved in this thread, but let me point out
that scavenging is associated with the Dynamics of the
pressure, not the static average value. If you ignor the
static pressure rise do to the turbo blockage you will still
find the dynamics of the individual exhaust pulses. These
pulses can still be timed to cause scavenging. The negative
pressure that follows the pulse will be negative relative to
the pulse, but not in an absolute sense.

		Ken

EFISYSTEMS at aol.com wrote:
> 
> I am interested in this thread as I would like to understand better the
> dynamics of a turbocharged engine.  It was always my understanding that the
> reason for a header over a manifold (in a turbo application)was to equalize
> the pressures at the ports,,,not for any kind of scavenging effect because
> there is pressure in the exhaust before the turbo usually equalling the intake
> pressure(I'm not concerned with how fast the turbo spools up at this point of
> the thread,,,, only with what is happening at full boost)  I guess my question
> is how could there possibly be scavenging if the exhaust has 15lbs of
> backpressure(for a number)???????Greg???Anyone???
> -Carl Summers
> 
> In a message dated 1/6/99 12:14:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> clarencewood at centuryinter.net writes:
> 
> << Subj:         Turbo header design
>  Date:  1/6/99 12:14:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
>  From:  clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
>  Sender:        owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>  Reply-to:      diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>  To:    diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>  CC:    bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann), darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
> 
>    Several years ago I read an article on the design of a collector for V8's
> that produced a bolt-on 20 hp increase.  I thought the idea was very slick:
> pair the tubes to their 180 out partner, baffle their exit into the collector.
> In other words:  as tube #1 was pushing out exhaust the cylinder that tube #2
> was servicing was on the power stroke;  as tube #2 started to extract it was
> helped by the vacuum created by the extraction of tube #1 which had just
> finished.
>    My question is: why can't this be applied to the header of a turbo'd
> engine: pre-turbo.  I know that the turbine is already turning and therefor
> creating a vacuum; but, at velocities reaching .75 mach, wouldn't any tuning,
> like using the 180 out exhaust arrangement help??  I don't think the header
> tubes would have to be lengthened to any great extent but, the baffling would
> have to be in place.  Also, wouldn't the pairing of 180 out tubes help to more
> efficiently direct the vacuum created by the turbine?
> 
>  Just a thought....
> 
> 
>  IZCC #3426
>   1982 280ZX Turbo GL
>   1966 El Camino
>   1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle
>   1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine)
>   1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower
>  Clarence Wood
>  Software&Such...
>  clarencewood at centuryinter.net
>  Savannah, TN.
> 
>   >>


From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Wed Jan  6 22:18:39 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:18:39 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter?
Message-ID: <mailman.31717.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Walter,
     I keep hearing of this "magic" box and sensor but have not been able to
locate it for pricing,etc....Does this use the Horiba type(6 wire) or Honda
type(5 wire) sensor?  Gotta URL????Was their transfer function
close?????thanks
-Carl Summers

In a message dated 1/6/99 1:37:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wsherwin at idirect.com writes:

<< Subj:	 Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
 Date:	1/6/99 1:37:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 The same UEGO sensor, with controller box, can be purchased directly from
 NGK (USA).  The only drawback is that the voltage output from the box is
 nonlinear with respect to Lamda.  So,  you have to either develope your own
 Lamda/V curve, or use their approximate tranform chart.  Once "dialed in"
 the response and accuracy are excellent, over quite a wide Lambda range.
 
 
  >>


From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan  6 22:28:42 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:28:42 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31718.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Sherwin <wsherwin at idirect.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?


>The same UEGO sensor, with controller box, can be purchased directly from
>NGK (USA).  The only drawback is that the voltage output from the box is
>nonlinear with respect to Lamda.  So,  you have to either develope your own
>Lamda/V curve, or use their approximate tranform chart.  Once "dialed in"
>the response and accuracy are excellent, over quite a wide Lambda range.

Do you have a part number or price?.  Happen to know the range?.
Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:12 AM
>Subject: Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
>
>
>>>In a message dated 1/5/99 10:36:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>bearbvd at sni.net
>>>writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Honda VTEC's use an NGK which is way superior to the Bosch unit.
>>>
>>>Is this a wide range sensor, and which models/engines used it?
>>
>>Yes, it is wide range, and very quick response. VTEC engines. Honda part #
>>is in archives within last 10 weeks or so. Controlling it is not a simple
>>matter.
>>Jobber cost from Honda is in $110 USD range.
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Mike V
>>
>>
>



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Wed Jan  6 22:40:55 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:40:55 -0500
Subject: P6 Pinouts
Message-ID: <mailman.31719.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Sorry about that... Was trying to keep the format with Rich Text...
It's now in English as well... GM_P6_pin.txt
thanks,
Dave

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From gderian at cybergate.net  Wed Jan  6 22:53:21 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:53:21 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31720.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

A turbo raises both the intake and exhaust pressure.  Scavenging works when
the local pressure is reduced during the exhaust stroke or a pressure drop
is created across the combustion chamber during overlap.  Relative low
pressure can be achieved even though the general pressures are above
atmospheric.  Its like running the engine on Jupiter.  A really efficient
turbo setup can have a higher intake pressure than exhaust but most street
installations have higher exhaust than intake.  Even an atmospheric engine
has higher exhaust pressure than intake at WOT.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>


>I am interested in this thread as I would like to understand better the
>dynamics of a turbocharged engine.  It was always my understanding that the
>reason for a header over a manifold (in a turbo application)was to equalize
>the pressures at the ports,,,not for any kind of scavenging effect because
>there is pressure in the exhaust before the turbo usually equalling the
intake
>pressure(I'm not concerned with how fast the turbo spools up at this point
of
>the thread,,,, only with what is happening at full boost)  I guess my
question
>is how could there possibly be scavenging if the exhaust has 15lbs of
>backpressure(for a number)???????Greg???Anyone???
>-Carl Summers




From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Wed Jan  6 23:17:13 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:17:13 -0500
Subject: difference between 16136965 and 1227747
Message-ID: <mailman.31721.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi Steve and All

A few folks have replaced the camaro tbi ecm with the 747

Cannister with a 747 is done with using ported vacum just like
the pre ecm days

Mat can be aprox with CTC. Close nough for a truck

Some trucks do have air. Just depends on application
It is not necessary to have the ecm control Air injection.

The camaro ecm though has the tables extended to 5K rpm
the truck uses approx above 3K or so..
Doesn't make that much of a real difference..

Gl and have fun:peter




From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com  Wed Jan  6 23:24:20 1999
From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:24:20 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31722.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence Wood wrote:
> 
>   Several years ago I read an article on the design of a collector for V8's that produced a bolt-on 20 hp increase.  I thought the idea was very slick:  pair the tubes to their 180 out partner, baffle their exit into the collector.  In other words:  as tube #1 was pushing out exhaust the cylinder that tube #2 was servicing was on the power stroke;  as tube #2 started to extract it was helped by the vacuum created by the extraction of tube #1 which had just finished.
>   My question is: why can't this be applied to the header of a turbo'd engine: pre-turbo.  I know that the turbine is already turning and therefor creating a vacuum; but, at velocities reaching .75 mach, wouldn't any tuning, like using the 180 out exhaust arrangement help??  I don't think the header tubes would have to be lengthened to any great extent but, the baffling would have to be in place.  Also, wouldn't the pairing of 180 out tubes help to more efficiently direct the vacuum created by the turbine?
> 
> Just a thought....
> 
> IZCC #3426
>  1982 280ZX Turbo GL
>  1966 El Camino
>  1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle
>  1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine)
>  1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower
> Clarence Wood
> Software&Such...
> clarencewood at centuryinter.net
> Savannah, TN.

Clarence,
  This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing order,
as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together.  Commonly done in NA
headers and OEM manifolds too.  However, true 180 degree headers on a V8
typically take up a lot of space.
   The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine, which is
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.  Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are):

     1     2        you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is #6, #8's
     3     4        is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2.  
     5     6        
     7     8        Obviously these are all on opposite banks, so the
pipes need to travel around the engine some distance to collect in a 180
degree fashion. I really don't know much about whether the benifits 
would outweigh the extra bulk and length of the exhaust system, but I
suspect not.
   HOWEVER it must be said that this arrangement does offer a killer
sound in NA form!  A gentleman in town has a '53 (?) Studebaker with a
406 Chevy in it, using standard NASCAR 180-degree headers collected into
a single exhaust, and it will raise the hair on the back of your neck. 
Almost sounds like an exotic foreign supercar (or a flat-crank V8, come
to think of it)

HTH

Aaron

ICQ # 27386985


From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com  Wed Jan  6 23:28:57 1999
From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:28:57 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31723.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

EFISYSTEMS at aol.com wrote:
> 
> I am interested in this thread as I would like to understand better the
> dynamics of a turbocharged engine.  It was always my understanding that the
> reason for a header over a manifold (in a turbo application)was to equalize
> the pressures at the ports,,,not for any kind of scavenging effect because
> there is pressure in the exhaust before the turbo usually equalling the intake
> pressure(I'm not concerned with how fast the turbo spools up at this point of
> the thread,,,, only with what is happening at full boost)  I guess my question
> is how could there possibly be scavenging if the exhaust has 15lbs of
> backpressure(for a number)???????Greg???Anyone???
> -Carl Summers
> 
<SNIP>
   Keep in mind that even a NA engine always has at least atmospheric
pressure on the exhaust (and on the intake as well, at WOT) which is
around 15psi at sea level.
   Perhaps the key is in pressure differential between cylinders and
exhasut systems?  Just a guess...

Aaron

ICQ # 27386985


From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan  7 00:23:57 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:23:57 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31724.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Gwyn Reedy wrote:
>>
>> I don't remember it that way.
>>
>> Chevy had the rear engine Corvair.
>> Pontiac had the 'half of a 389 V8' 4 cyl with rear transaxle and the
>> driveshaft you saw.
>> Olds and Buick had the 215 aluminum V8 with conventional transmission and
>> rear end technology.
>>
><SNIP>
>
>Pontiac also ofered the 389 V8 in the early Tempest at some point, as
>well as several versions of the slant four (4bbl carb etc).
>  Not sure about 6 cyl. though.
>   BTW I earlier wrote that swing axle cars were 61-61....should have
>read 61-63.

The first 389 in any midsize Poncho, other than Jim Wangers' work, was in
the B body, '64, Tempest with the GTO option. Dad had one. That year, they
even had the cheek to spell out the option, as in "Gran Tourismo
Ommolagato"  (sp?) on the price sticker. I read it.

The four barrel option came on the 230 cid OHC (belt drive) in-line six
banger (first in '65).

Regards, Greg
>
>Aaron
>
>ICQ #27386985




From stuart at kenelec.com.au  Thu Jan  7 00:33:46 1999
From: stuart at kenelec.com.au (Stuart Bunning)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:33:46 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31725.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


IF YOU KNOW THE RPM AND DUTY CYCLE YOU CAN CALCULATE THE mS on time.
for example 3% duty cycle at idle 700RPM would be 700 RPM/60 = 11.666
REv's/second or Hz = 85.7ms and 3% of 85.7ms is 2.57 ms...




At 12:07 PM 4/1/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi
>Just a correction, the dutycycle of the injectors does not realy mean
>anything,
>it is the open time that is normally of interest. The dutycycle however can
>give
>you an indication of feul-economy.
>
>Cheers
>Carlo Putter
>South Africa
>


Best Regards,

STUART BUNNING
SALES ENGINEER
KENELEC PTY LTD

23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
AUSTRALIA

PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
EMAIL:  stuart at kenelec.com.au
WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/



From stuart at kenelec.com.au  Thu Jan  7 00:33:51 1999
From: stuart at kenelec.com.au (Stuart Bunning)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:33:51 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31726.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I just purchased (yesterday) a automotive multimeter that has duty cycle for
measuring injector pulse width it displayes the result in % on the LCD
display. It also has RPM AMP OHM and VOLT settings.

This meter I got from Dick Smith electronics in Australia was only AUS$89
I testesed it last night connecting the + lead to the injector output on the
ECU and the - input to a available ground. It gives me about 3% at idle on a
3.8 litre v6 commodore about 10% at light cruise 20-30% slight accel and i
have got it upto about 80% which was just before rev limit on my car in
second gear so it seems to work fine. I will check it on my bench ECU to
clarify accuracy but overall seems like a good buy..



At 11:06 AM 6/1/99 +1000, you wrote:
>> Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
>> 
>> On this subject, what is it that we really want to
>> measure? Duty cycle or the pulse width?
>> 
>> The two designs presented (B. Bowling and C Hack),
>> are nice. But getting access to a PIC programmer
>> can be a problem. JDR carries a bunch of PIC's, and
>> the OTP 16C56 can be had for $4.50US, not bad. A
>> AT89C2051 w/flash is $7.00US, plus Christian's
>> design reads out on an LCD screen, nice again.
>
>Just want to make the point that I can take _no_ credit
>for the pwmeter.zip design. The guy who did it is Georg Lerm.
>I'm just a mere PS to GIF converter boy (That's where you
>start when you're a junior at CSH HQ - hopefully I'll get
>a promotion soon).
>
>> 
>> If there's enough interest, would someone with a
>> PIC programmer burn up a bunch for a group purchase?
>> 
>
>I have designs for PIC programmer that can be whipped on
>a bread board in less than an hour and will program almost
>any PIC. Only requires two voltage regs, an open collector 
>hex inverter and a coupla transistors/resistors/capacitors.
>
>
>Christian Hack
>christianh at edmi.com.au
>EDMI Pty Ltd
>Ph : (07) 3888 3066
>FAX : (07) 3888 3583
>
>
>


Best Regards,

STUART BUNNING
SALES ENGINEER
KENELEC PTY LTD

23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
AUSTRALIA

PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
EMAIL:  stuart at kenelec.com.au
WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Thu Jan  7 00:43:42 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:43:42 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31727.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 12:23 PM 1/6/99 +1000, you wrote:
>
>IF YOU KNOW THE RPM AND DUTY CYCLE YOU CAN CALCULATE THE mS on time.
>for example 3% duty cycle at idle 700RPM would be 700 RPM/60 = 11.666
>REv's/second or Hz = 85.7ms and 3% of 85.7ms is 2.57 ms...

Remember this is a 4 stroke engine... so it's 11.666/2 = 5.833 intake
cycles/sec/cyl = 171.4ms, 3% of 171.4ms = 5.142ms on time

Later,
Dave

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From Galadar at worldnet.att.net  Thu Jan  7 01:07:18 1999
From: Galadar at worldnet.att.net (Jon Fedock)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:07:18 -0500
Subject: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31728.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


<snipperoo>

>Clarence,
>  This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing order,
>as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together.  Commonly done in NA
>headers and OEM manifolds too.  However, true 180 degree headers on a V8
>typically take up a lot of space.
>   The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine, which is
>1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.  Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are):
>
>     1     2        you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is #6, #8's
>     3     4        is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2.
>     5     6
>     7     8

#1 and #6 are 180 degrees apart on the distributor, not the crank. #1 and #4
are 180 degrees apart on the crank. Aren't they? What cylinders are grouped
together with NASCAR 180 degree headers?

Jon

<snip>



From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Thu Jan  7 01:15:14 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:15:14 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31729.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  I was using MacInnes's statement (page 70): Turbocharged-engine exhaust systems are different (than NA).  They duct the hot, high-pressure, high-velocity gases from the engine to the turbocharger. ...Any velocity or pressure lost in the exhaust system must be regained to the turbine housing.
  Wouldn't scavenging help keep pressure and velocity up?
  Don't be afraid to tell me I am barking up the wrong tree!  For me, this is a learning exercise.  But, MacInnes goes on to say: Let's say the exhaust gas comes out of the exhaust port of the engine at about 300 ft per sec.  
  At 300 ft per sec where does the 15 lbs of port pressure come into play??  I am not being sarcastic, just trying to learn.  Should I try to imagine a column of air traveling at that speed with 15 lbs of pressure? I am confused.  Information on how turbochargers work is hard to get.  I would really like to know where the pressure at the ports info came from as I would like to read about it as I am having trouble relating the equalization of intake pressure to the exhaust port pressure.  I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I don't understand.    
  

At 04:44 PM 1/6/99 EST, you wrote:
>I am interested in this thread as I would like to understand better the
>dynamics of a turbocharged engine.  It was always my understanding that the
>reason for a header over a manifold (in a turbo application)was to equalize
>the pressures at the ports,,,not for any kind of scavenging effect because
>there is pressure in the exhaust before the turbo usually equalling the intake
>pressure(I'm not concerned with how fast the turbo spools up at this point of
>the thread,,,, only with what is happening at full boost)  I guess my question
>is how could there possibly be scavenging if the exhaust has 15lbs of
>backpressure(for a number)???????Greg???Anyone???
>-Carl Summers
>
>In a message dated 1/6/99 12:14:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>clarencewood at centuryinter.net writes:
>
>   Several years ago I read an article on the design of a collector for V8's
>that produced a bolt-on 20 hp increase.  I thought the idea was very slick:
>pair the tubes to their 180 out partner, baffle their exit into the collector.
>In other words:  as tube #1 was pushing out exhaust the cylinder that tube #2
>was servicing was on the power stroke;  as tube #2 started to extract it was
>helped by the vacuum created by the extraction of tube #1 which had just
>finished.
>   My question is: why can't this be applied to the header of a turbo'd
>engine: pre-turbo.  I know that the turbine is already turning and therefor
>creating a vacuum; but, at velocities reaching .75 mach, wouldn't any tuning,
>like using the 180 out exhaust arrangement help??  I don't think the header
>tubes would have to be lengthened to any great extent but, the baffling would
>have to be in place.  Also, wouldn't the pairing of 180 out tubes help to more
>efficiently direct the vacuum created by the turbine?
> 
> Just a thought....
> 



From mgr at mgrcorp.com  Thu Jan  7 01:34:37 1999
From: mgr at mgrcorp.com (Gwyn Reedy)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:34:37 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31730.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Lots and lots of conflicting messages about these cars being posted.

AAron - maybe I kinda remember the 326 Pontiac engine being put into the 63
tempest, but not the big V8. When the 389 was put in the 64 Tempest
(contrary to GM front office policy on engine size in the 'compact' cars)
the GTO was born and that was one of the first muscle cars.

Gwyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Aaron
> Willis
> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 4:46 PM
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread
>
>
> Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> >
> > I don't remember it that way.
> >
> > Chevy had the rear engine Corvair.
> > Pontiac had the 'half of a 389 V8' 4 cyl with rear transaxle and the
> > driveshaft you saw.
> > Olds and Buick had the 215 aluminum V8 with conventional
> transmission and
> > rear end technology.
> >
> <SNIP>
>
> Pontiac also ofered the 389 V8 in the early Tempest at some point, as
> well as several versions of the slant four (4bbl carb etc).
>   Not sure about 6 cyl. though.
>    BTW I earlier wrote that swing axle cars were 61-61....should have
> read 61-63.
>
> Aaron
>
> ICQ #27386985
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan  7 01:48:55 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:48:55 -0500
Subject: Delco 639
Message-ID: <mailman.31731.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Niki Albury <joelsmama at tpgi.com.au>
To: DIY_EFI <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 7:52 AM
Subject: Delco 639

I can't find that number in any of my material
Bruce


>Hi all
>
>Have any of you guys come accross a DELCO 16208639???
>they have no memcal......same size as a 165/808
>They come out od the 94 Holden Barina 1.4 Auto
>
>Justin
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan  7 01:53:23 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:53:23 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31732.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence Wood <clarencewood at centuryinter.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: Turbo header design

As far as scavenging, some Turbo cams are 0 overlap.
The equal lenght, volume, temp, may be all to keep the pulses equally spaced
to
keep the energy applied to the turbo constant, or linear as possible.  While
it
is spinning fast acclerations/decclerations due to a poor exhaust wouldn't
help anything.
Bruce


>  I was using MacInnes's statement (page 70): Turbocharged-engine exhaust
systems are different (than NA).  They duct the hot, high-pressure,
high-velocity gases from the engine to the turbocharger. ...Any velocity or
pressure lost in the exhaust system must be regained to the turbine housing.
>  Wouldn't scavenging help keep pressure and velocity up?
>  Don't be afraid to tell me I am barking up the wrong tree!  For me, this
is a learning exercise.  But, MacInnes goes on to say: Let's say the exhaust
gas comes out of the exhaust port of the engine at about 300 ft per sec.
>  At 300 ft per sec where does the 15 lbs of port pressure come into play??
I am not being sarcastic, just trying to learn.  Should I try to imagine a
column of air traveling at that speed with 15 lbs of pressure? I am
confused.  Information on how turbochargers work is hard to get.  I would
really like to know where the pressure at the ports info came from as I
would like to read about it as I am having trouble relating the equalization
of intake pressure to the exhaust port pressure.  I am not saying that you
are wrong, just that I don't understand.
>
>
>At 04:44 PM 1/6/99 EST, you wrote:
>>I am interested in this thread as I would like to understand better the
>>dynamics of a turbocharged engine.  It was always my understanding that
the
>>reason for a header over a manifold (in a turbo application)was to
equalize
>>the pressures at the ports,,,not for any kind of scavenging effect because
>>there is pressure in the exhaust before the turbo usually equalling the
intake
>>pressure(I'm not concerned with how fast the turbo spools up at this point
of
>>the thread,,,, only with what is happening at full boost)  I guess my
question
>>is how could there possibly be scavenging if the exhaust has 15lbs of
>>backpressure(for a number)???????Greg???Anyone???
>>-Carl Summers
>>
>>In a message dated 1/6/99 12:14:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>>clarencewood at centuryinter.net writes:
>>
>>   Several years ago I read an article on the design of a collector for
V8's
>>that produced a bolt-on 20 hp increase.  I thought the idea was very
slick:
>>pair the tubes to their 180 out partner, baffle their exit into the
collector.
>>In other words:  as tube #1 was pushing out exhaust the cylinder that tube
#2
>>was servicing was on the power stroke;  as tube #2 started to extract it
was
>>helped by the vacuum created by the extraction of tube #1 which had just
>>finished.
>>   My question is: why can't this be applied to the header of a turbo'd
>>engine: pre-turbo.  I know that the turbine is already turning and
therefor
>>creating a vacuum; but, at velocities reaching .75 mach, wouldn't any
tuning,
>>like using the 180 out exhaust arrangement help??  I don't think the
header
>>tubes would have to be lengthened to any great extent but, the baffling
would
>>have to be in place.  Also, wouldn't the pairing of 180 out tubes help to
more
>>efficiently direct the vacuum created by the turbine?
>>
>> Just a thought....
>>
>



From wsherwin at idirect.com  Thu Jan  7 01:57:49 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:57:49 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31733.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ummm....................here's more fuel for the duty cycle fire.  DUTY
CYCLE, by definition, is the ratio of the ON time of an injector versus the
ULTIMATE time that it could be turned on per period.  This will vary
according to the fueling "mode" that the software engineer or OEM has chosen
(ie:  batch SSDF, batch SSSF, alternating TBI, single TBI, sequential,
phased sequential).

If you are worried about dynamic injector performance (as you should be)
then you have to consider the magnitude of the ON time versus the ULTIMATE
time available for injection.  This is why an oscilloscope is so invaluable
in determining injector "headroom", and why many duty meters are somewhat
meaningless, UNLESS you know the exact firing schedule of your system.
Beware,  a software package may flip modes based on preset operating
criteria!


Take Care;
Walt.



-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Bunning <stuart at kenelec.com.au>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Injector Duty Monitor


>
>IF YOU KNOW THE RPM AND DUTY CYCLE YOU CAN CALCULATE THE mS on time.
>for example 3% duty cycle at idle 700RPM would be 700 RPM/60 = 11.666
>REv's/second or Hz = 85.7ms and 3% of 85.7ms is 2.57 ms...
>
>
>
>
>At 12:07 PM 4/1/99 +0200, you wrote:
>>Hi
>>Just a correction, the dutycycle of the injectors does not realy mean
>>anything,
>>it is the open time that is normally of interest. The dutycycle however
can
>>give
>>you an indication of feul-economy.
>>
>>Cheers
>>Carlo Putter
>>South Africa
>>
>
>
>Best Regards,
>
>STUART BUNNING
>SALES ENGINEER
>KENELEC PTY LTD
>
>23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
>MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
>AUSTRALIA
>
>PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
>FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
>EMAIL:  stuart at kenelec.com.au
>WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/
>



From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Thu Jan  7 02:50:45 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:50:45 -0500
Subject: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31734.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

We have photo radar here in Alberta, most of the time they park on the 
right hand side of the road. All that is needed is to bend the right edge 
of the plate 45 deg. this way the camera can't read the last digit. It 
works.
/Marc

----------
From: 	Tom Parker[SMTP:tparker at nznet.gen.nz]
Sent: 	January 5, 1999 6:23 AM
To: 	Mos
Subject: 	Re: oops... (was Re: Nology)

Mos <s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au> wrote:

>What about painting the reflective stuff with opaque paint? Still the same
>colour, just much less reflective.

In NZ if they catch you covering your plate in any way, you are in big
trouble. If a copper was following you, he might notice that your  plate
doesn't refelect like it should. At night, even dirty Plates light up from
100's of metres away.

My personal system would look a bit odd on most cars. I drive a mini which 
has
a number plate hanging under the front bumper, with the bottom edge about 4
inches above the ground. Mine is rather loosely attached and is bent in 
such a
way that it hangs straight when you are stationary, but flies up under the
bumper enough to dissapear when you are moving.

The only problem is if you see the camera and hit the brakes, then it 
probably
reappears.

Doesn't work on the rear plate though.

--
Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/




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From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Thu Jan  7 03:26:29 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:26:29 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31735.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:31:22 -0800 "Walter Sherwin" <wsherwin at idirect.com>
writes:
>The same UEGO sensor, with controller box, can be purchased directly
from
>NGK (USA).  The only drawback is that the voltage output from the box is
>nonlinear with respect to Lamda.  So,  you have to either develope your
own
>Lamda/V curve, or use their approximate tranform chart.  Once "dialed
in"
>the response and accuracy are excellent, over quite a wide Lambda 
>range.

Really?  How much do they want for this device?  Are you talking about
one of those $1000.00 + units?

Ray

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From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Thu Jan  7 03:26:42 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:26:42 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31736.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>I also remember seeing an old Lincoln that had a double-cardon on both
>>ends of the driveshaft.  I had heard that having a double-cardon at
both
>>ends will allow the driveshaft to drop out of alignment, but the joints
>>on the Lincoln were retained by some pieces of spring steel.
>
>Caddy used to use CV drive-shaft joints like that too--quieter and
>smoother, cuzza no accel/decel of the driveshaft as it rotates. There is
a
>little sphere and socket in the center that keeps 'em aligned. Mid '70's
>Chevy full-time 4x4 trucks used a similar joint at the transfer case end
of
>their front drive shaft, too.

Do you have any idea where I can get such a critter?  My Grand Wagoneer
has a double cardon on the transfer case side of the front driveshaft,
but it doesn't have the ball and socket self-alignment gizmo.  That is
why there is a single cardon on the differential end.

Double cardon joints would be just the ticket for lifting a Jeep because
it would solve driveline angle vibration problems and add a few inches to
the length of the driveshaft at the same time.  All that would be left is
to use a drop pitman arm and extend the brake lines.

Ray

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From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Thu Jan  7 03:26:46 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:26:46 -0500
Subject: Wide Band O2
Message-ID: <mailman.31737.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ezra,

Just to let you know what you are up against:
The wide ratio lambda sensor is a different animal.  It actually contains
a standard HEGO sensor that is used in a feedback loop.  You need to
create a circuit that reads the voltage on the HEGO sensor and uses that
info to adjust the current that operates an oxygen ion pump.  The
resultant current is proportional to the lambda, but the curve has a
different slope on either side of stoich.

Just enough details to whet your appetite.  If you need more help, let me
know.

Ray Drouillard, BSEE


On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:19:19 -0500 "Ezra Hall" <ehall at together.net>
writes:
>Bruce,
> Thank you for the response. I have already built an LED meter to
monitor
>Lambda sensor operation. My problem is locating a Lambda sensor itself
that
>will cover a wider range of Lambda. The stock sensor covers a very
narrow
>range, at least that is what I have read and observed. I want coverage
to
>Lambda=.86,A/F=12.6:1, MAX POWER. I have heard that newer Hondas use a
wider
>band Lambda sensor so they can run more lean, anyone know? I think these
are
>4-wire Lambda sensors, 2 for the heater, 2 for the sensor
element.Thanks!
> Ezra
>ehall at together.net
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
>To: ehall at together.net <ehall at together.net>
>Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 9:15 PM
>Subject: Wide Band O2
>
>
>>Lots of stuff in the archives for building one, but no one has done
that
>>yet.  Project name was EGOR.  If ya want a hand holler.  I can't offer
>>much maybe just where to look for some stuff.
>>  Best of Luck Bruce

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From ludis at cruzers.com  Thu Jan  7 03:28:54 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:28:54 -0500
Subject: difference between 16136965 and 1227747
Message-ID: <mailman.31738.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

steve ravet <Steve.Ravet at arm.com> wrote:
> IAT:  747 is unused.  Isn't IAT needed to calculate air density?

The intake air temperature has a very small affect on fuel delivery. 
Here's a table (from a different ECM) used to calculate the injector
pulse width:

200 135 108  92  80  71  63  56  50  44  37  31  24  16   6  -8 -43 degC
165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,165,166,167,170,175

As you can see, there is almost no difference across normal
temperatures.  Only in that Illinois town a few nights ago would there
be a difference.

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/



From wsherwin at idirect.com  Thu Jan  7 03:37:41 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:37:41 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter?
Message-ID: <mailman.31739.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Guys!  NGK (USA)  is located in Michigan, and the last phone number that
I have for them is 1-810-489-0110.

The sensor is a TL-7111-W1 UEGO sensor ($600), the controller is a TC-6000
($400) and the wiring harness is TH-2009-W1 ($60).  The controller comes in
"A, B, C, D" versions, for  analysis of A/F ratios of 10-30, 14-54, 15-50,
and 10-15.5 respectively.  The output voltage is roughly 1-5 volts, and is
highly nonlinear.

The sensor harness connector utilizes 7 connections.  Basically, it is a
6-wire sensor (as made for Horiba and others) plus one other terminal for a
compensation resistance.

The repeatability and response are pretty good, but the life is short.  The
sensor does not like sudden contact with moisture!  To be super accurate,
you'll have to generate your own Voltage/Lambda transfer function, but for
relative tuning purposes the supplied NGK graph works fine.

All of this was collected 3 years ago, I'd love to hear from the list of any
similar products that have emerged since then?

Take Care;
Walt.



-----Original Message-----
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com <EFISYSTEMS at aol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter?


>Hi Walter,
>     I keep hearing of this "magic" box and sensor but have not been able
to
>locate it for pricing,etc....Does this use the Horiba type(6 wire) or Honda
>type(5 wire) sensor?  Gotta URL????Was their transfer function
>close?????thanks
>-Carl Summers
>
>In a message dated 1/6/99 1:37:00 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>wsherwin at idirect.com writes:
>
><< Subj: Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
> Date: 1/6/99 1:37:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
> From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
> Sender: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>
> The same UEGO sensor, with controller box, can be purchased directly from
> NGK (USA).  The only drawback is that the voltage output from the box is
> nonlinear with respect to Lamda.  So,  you have to either develope your
own
> Lamda/V curve, or use their approximate tranform chart.  Once "dialed in"
> the response and accuracy are excellent, over quite a wide Lambda range.
>
>
>  >>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan  7 04:20:21 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:20:21 -0500
Subject: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31740.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

><snipperoo>
>
>>Clarence,
>>  This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing order,
>>as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together.  Commonly done in NA
>>headers and OEM manifolds too.  However, true 180 degree headers on a V8
>>typically take up a lot of space.
>>   The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine, which is
>>1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.  Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are):
>>
>>     1     2        you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is #6, #8's
>>     3     4        is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2.
>>     5     6
>>     7     8
>
>#1 and #6 are 180 degrees apart on the distributor, not the crank. #1 and #4
>are 180 degrees apart on the crank. Aren't they? What cylinders are grouped
>together with NASCAR 180 degree headers?
>
>Jon
>
><snip>
 I think he meant 360 degrees--- :-)

Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan  7 04:21:51 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:21:51 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31741.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Lots and lots of conflicting messages about these cars being posted.
>
>AAron - maybe I kinda remember the 326 Pontiac engine being put into the 63
>tempest, but not the big V8.

Yep they did do that.

Greg




From ChvyRs92 at aol.com  Thu Jan  7 04:28:07 1999
From: ChvyRs92 at aol.com (ChvyRs92 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:28:07 -0500
Subject: Vats
Message-ID: <mailman.31742.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I have a 92 Camaro with a VATS Passkey System. I am going to try to hook it up
to a 92 corvette. Supposedly the passkey system would send a signal to the ECM
of the Camaro to let it start, but in a 92 Vett it sends a signal to the CCM
too. My question is can I wire the VATS system of the Camaro to the Vett? I
know that all the keys put out different levels of resistance and the passkey
system lets the ECM know it is O.K. to start, but is the signal put out by the
passkey system to the ECM/CCM specific? 


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Thu Jan  7 04:45:47 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:45:47 -0500
Subject: TempesTorque - Was Re: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31743.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> 
> Lots and lots of conflicting messages about these cars being posted.
> 
> AAron - maybe I kinda remember the 326 Pontiac engine being put into the 63
> tempest, but not the big V8. When the 389 was put in the 64 Tempest
> (contrary to GM front office policy on engine size in the 'compact' cars)
> the GTO was born and that was one of the first muscle cars.
> 
> Gwyn
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Aaron
> > Willis
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 4:46 PM
> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > Subject: Re: Water Injection Thread
> >
> >
> > Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't remember it that way.
> > >
> > > Chevy had the rear engine Corvair.
> > > Pontiac had the 'half of a 389 V8' 4 cyl with rear transaxle and the
> > > driveshaft you saw.
> > > Olds and Buick had the 215 aluminum V8 with conventional
> > transmission and
> > > rear end technology.
> > >
> > <SNIP>
> >
> > Pontiac also ofered the 389 V8 in the early Tempest at some point, as
> > well as several versions of the slant four (4bbl carb etc).
> >   Not sure about 6 cyl. though.
> >    BTW I earlier wrote that swing axle cars were 61-61....should have
> > read 61-63.
> >
> > Aaron
> >
> > ICQ #27386985
> >
One of my sources says only the 4 cyl was available in the TEMPEST up to
'63. If it had an 8 it was a LeMans. An 8 cyl LeMans was a 326. Period.
The other reliable source seems to indicate a very few 215 V6 engines
MAY have found their way into tempests in '61 and '62. No numbers to
support this, however, but specs show a different final drive ratio for
a V8 '61-'62 tempest - with transaxle.
In '64 the Indy 4 was dropped in favour of the 215 cdi inline 6
(basically a chevy but 3.75 X 3.25" BXS) The 389 GTO version of the
tempest came in 64.
The 230 (3.87X3.35) OHC was a 1965 addition. The 4 BBL Sprint version
came available in '67. In '68 the 3.8 (230 CID) was enlarged to 4.2
(250CID)(3.88X3.53)
Buick and Olds ALL used conventional driveline.

This information was researched from sources published by Canadian
Automotive Trade magazine and the Standard Catalog of American Cars, 3rd
edition, published by Krause Publications.

This re-enforces the memories I have of working on these cars in the
late sixties and early seventies when I maintained a few of them.

Hope this can put some closure on this subject :}


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Thu Jan  7 04:56:01 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:56:01 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31744.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Walter Sherwin wrote:
> 
> Ummm....................here's more fuel for the duty cycle fire.  DUTY
> CYCLE, by definition, is the ratio of the ON time of an injector versus the
> ULTIMATE time that it could be turned on per period.  This will vary
> according to the fueling "mode" that the software engineer or OEM has chosen
> (ie:  batch SSDF, batch SSSF, alternating TBI, single TBI, sequential,
> phased sequential).
> 
> If you are worried about dynamic injector performance (as you should be)
> then you have to consider the magnitude of the ON time versus the ULTIMATE
> time available for injection.  This is why an oscilloscope is so invaluable
> in determining injector "headroom", and why many duty meters are somewhat
> meaningless, UNLESS you know the exact firing schedule of your system.
> Beware,  a software package may flip modes based on preset operating
> criteria!
> 
> Take Care;
> Walt.
> >

DUTY CYCLE is calculated, by meters, as the percentage of time the
circuit is "asserted" between event triggers. This means that the
"period" is measured from injector opening to injector opening, or
injector closing to injector closing. The percentage of this period
occupied by the "asserted" mode, or injector energized, is read as DUTY
CYCLE. As such, there is NO requirement to know the firing mode of the
engine, or anything else. It WILL be accurate.
The DUTY RATIO is the ratio of time on vs time off and is generally not
used. This would be stated as 8:2, not 80%. Even with duty ratio, the
effect is the same - conversion is direct as long as the 2 numbers
(before and after colon) add up to 10.

I fail to see how the injection mode can affect this.


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Thu Jan  7 05:09:06 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:09:06 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar - was Re: oops... (was Re: Nology)
Message-ID: <mailman.31745.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Marc Piccioni wrote:
> 
> We have photo radar here in Alberta, most of the time they park on the
> right hand side of the road. All that is needed is to bend the right edge
> of the plate 45 deg. this way the camera can't read the last digit. It
> works.
> /Marc
> 
> ----------
> From:   Tom Parker[SMTP:tparker at nznet.gen.nz]
> Sent:   January 5, 1999 6:23 AM
> To:     Mos
> Subject:        Re: oops... (was Re: Nology)
> 
> Mos <s2193387 at cse.unsw.edu.au> wrote:
> 
> >What about painting the reflective stuff with opaque paint? Still the same
> >colour, just much less reflective.
> 
> In NZ if they catch you covering your plate in any way, you are in big
> trouble. If a copper was following you, he might notice that your  plate
> doesn't refelect like it should. At night, even dirty Plates light up from
> 100's of metres away.
> 
> My personal system would look a bit odd on most cars. I drive a mini which
> has
> a number plate hanging under the front bumper, with the bottom edge about 4
> inches above the ground. Mine is rather loosely attached and is bent in
> such a
> way that it hangs straight when you are stationary, but flies up under the
> bumper enough to dissapear when you are moving.
> 
> The only problem is if you see the camera and hit the brakes, then it
> probably
> reappears.
> 
> Doesn't work on the rear plate though.
> 
> --
> Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
>            - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/
> 
>                              Name: WINMAIL.DAT
>               Part 1.2       Type: MPEG Video (video/mpeg)
>                          Encoding: x-uuencode
Just "french" the plate - same effect, and legal.
When Ontario had Photo Radar they could not catch transport (semi)
trucks, because the rear plate of the cab was obscured, and the trailer
plate was untraceable. The flash had to shoot forward to avoid blinding
drivers (and tipping off oncoming traffic) The readability of the older
plates was pretty poor as well (not all are reflective) so tickets were
regularly issued to the wrong vehicle - including some that had been off
the road for several years and the plates not turned in.
Until transponders become standard (electronic toll roads like the
Ontario #407) photo radar will continue to be rather arbitrary and
failure prone - read that unfair. With electronic toll routes, radar
will be unnecessary, as average speed over random distances can be
calculated and the fine applied directly to your account. Driving with
unpaid fines amounts to theft of services, and can result in criminal,
not civil, liability when the fines excede $500.
Big Brother WILL be watching.
Now, the flip side.
You pull onto the toll road. If you do not pass the next scanning point
within, say, twice the expected time has passed, they automatically send
the wrecker out to look for you. Safety is enhanced as you never have to
accept "help" from a stranger. If someone is abducted from their broken
down vehicle, the authorities know EXACTLY who has been on that stretch
of road in the target time bracket.


From e.schumacher at worldnet.att.net  Thu Jan  7 06:07:26 1999
From: e.schumacher at worldnet.att.net (Eric Schumacher)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:07:26 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31746.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

3M makes some stuff they call Louver Film. It comes in a sheet (.062 or
,032 thick) and built like a venitian blind, so restricts the viewing
angle. Opaque off the design axis and clear on  axis.  We use it in the
dispay biz to control the viewing angle of flat panel displays. 

Lotsa Luck Eric
85 GTI with VR6 Power


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Thu Jan  7 07:32:37 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:32:37 -0500
Subject: Vats
Message-ID: <mailman.31747.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Howday

A vette is a different animal than a F body..

The ccm uses the 30/50 Hz signal and checks it.
If all ok a signal is sent on the data buss to the ecm..

Only way to do this is to set the vats bit off in the PCM..
Good thing for 92 this is in a calpak not too hard to do

take care:peter




From asaerong at usa.net  Thu Jan  7 07:42:23 1999
From: asaerong at usa.net (Alex Saerong)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:42:23 -0500
Subject: spiralmax
Message-ID: <mailman.31748.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

please dont send me this junkmail anymore ..i'll appreciate that
thank

----------
> From: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Daniel Peper <ace486 at cyberg8t.com>
> Cc: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; list <toyota-mods at cyberauto.com>
> Subject: Re: spiralmax
> Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 1:09 AM
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aaron Willis <darkmonahue at awwwsome.com>
> To: Daniel Peper <ace486 at cyberg8t.com>
> Cc: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
<diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>;
> list <toyota-mods at cyberauto.com>
> Date: Saturday, December 26, 1998 3:53 AM
> Subject: Re: spiralmax
> 
> 
> Just as efffective as putting magnets on your fuel liine, IMHO..
> Only reason they could work, is if the mixture was too lean, and
> by adding this restriction, richened the AFR...
> Bruce


From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Thu Jan  7 07:51:11 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:51:11 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31749.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/6/99 8:35:01 AM Pacific Standard Time,
kenkelly at lucent.com writes:

<< Boy this thread is bouncing around.
 
 	The corvair had a transaxle, but was a rear engined pancake
 6.
 
 	The Pontiac tempest Buick Special, and Olds f85 shared
 sheet metal, but not drive train. The Buick and F85 had a
 normal transmission/rear, while the tempest had a rear
 mounted transaxle with a flexible torque tube type
 connection from the engine.
  >>
On an interesting note. there is a Lotus 7 replica possibly a Westfield that
was running in Autocross with a Yamaha Vmax in front and a VW transaxle in the
rear. Think about that for a minute. Sequential gear box running to a multiple
ratio rear end with Reverse. You could trash the whole bellhousing just like
the later Hewland's that used the VW case. Flip it to get the axles level, and
the driveshaft low. Take out the extra gears for a hi-lo quickchange type
effect. no problem with rotation, the ring and pinion are symmetrical. A
little welding and machining, and you could have a nice compact little unit.
Fred Harmon


From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Thu Jan  7 08:39:47 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:39:47 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31750.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/6/99 4:10:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
darkmonahue at awwwsome.com writes:

<<This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing order,
as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together.  Commonly done in NA
headers and OEM manifolds too.  However, true 180 degree headers on a V8
typically take up a lot of space.>>

Yes, and fabrication is a nightmare. fitting them into a car with any
accesories is a real challenge unless you try to reverse the intake and exaust
like some of the Indy V8's that Ford did years ago. Now think about the fun of
trying to run TPI to that mess.

<< Almost sounds like an exotic foreign supercar (or a flat-crank V8, come
 to think of it) >>
As I remember from a lot of engine research, flat cranks and 180 degree
headers are great for max horsepower, at the expense of powerband width. I
also recall there being a major problem with intake resonance and reversion
with these systems. On a turbo it might not be a problem. but I would suspect
that a good short free flowing pair if 4 into 1 headers with an appropriate
size collector merging the pair into the turbo would be fine. Go look at some
old Indy Offenhauser Turbo 4 cylinders, some of those were simply a series of
exaust bends emerging from the heads and right into a log type manifold to the
turbo. Very simple, and very tight packaging.
Fred Harmon


From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Thu Jan  7 09:05:01 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 04:05:01 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter?
Message-ID: <mailman.31751.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/6/99 8:46:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
wsherwin at idirect.com writes:

<< Hi Guys!  NGK (USA)  is located in Michigan, and the last phone number that
 I have for them is 1-810-489-0110.
 
 The sensor is a TL-7111-W1 UEGO sensor ($600), the controller is a TC-6000
 ($400) and the wiring harness is TH-2009-W1 ($60).  The controller comes in
 "A, B, C, D" versions, for  analysis of A/F ratios of 10-30, 14-54, 15-50,
 and 10-15.5 respectively.  The output voltage is roughly 1-5 volts, and is
 highly nonlinear.
 
 The sensor harness connector utilizes 7 connections.  Basically, it is a
 6-wire sensor (as made for Horiba and others) plus one other terminal for a
 compensation resistance.
 
 The repeatability and response are pretty good, but the life is short.  The
 sensor does not like sudden contact with moisture!  >>

Just a question about usage then. How is it for a turbo App? Or would it have
to be downstream of the turbo to keep the temp down? And, you mention that
moisture is a problem. Does that mean that Water Injections would destroy it. 
On the same thought, has anyone tried water injection with a lambda sensor and
got readings? I wonder what a basic carb type engine with a sensor in the
exhaust would differ in readings with and without water. Any comments would be
appriecated.
Fred


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Thu Jan  7 09:08:54 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 04:08:54 -0500
Subject: Vats
Message-ID: <mailman.31752.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



OOPS

Sorry guys to correct myself.. The CCM doesn't play with signals
it measures the key pellet directly.. If the key code is correct
the info is sent to the ecm

:peter





From geoffsue at one.net.au  Thu Jan  7 11:09:57 1999
From: geoffsue at one.net.au (Geoff Richards)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:09:57 -0500
Subject: Wide range 02 sensor
Message-ID: <mailman.31753.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

List
When enquiring about purchase of wide range 02 sensor
was told that it was only good for approx 50 hrs
yet same sensor in car good for 100 000 k's more or less
many more hours than 50
Am I missing something?
ps: Any other mailing lists similar interests to this one can
be recommended
Thanks
Geoff



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Thu Jan  7 12:42:31 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 07:42:31 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31754.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Raymond C Drouillard wrote:

> >Caddy used to use CV drive-shaft joints like that too--quieter and
> >smoother, cuzza no accel/decel of the driveshaft as it rotates. There is
> a
> >little sphere and socket in the center that keeps 'em aligned. Mid '70's
> >Chevy full-time 4x4 trucks used a similar joint at the transfer case end
> of
> >their front drive shaft, too.
>
> Do you have any idea where I can get such a critter?

All early Broncos had them... Tom



From gderian at cybergate.net  Thu Jan  7 13:01:50 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:01:50 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31755.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

A reasonably close approximation to true 180 deg. headers can be made with
the old tri-Y approach.  As Aaron wrote, true 180 would require merging 1-6,
8-5, 4-7, 3-2 which is difficult to make.  Merging 1-5, 3-7, 4-6, 2-8
enables cylinder pairs to share an exhaust pipe without interfering and is
relatively easy to build.  This is common in high output European and
Japanese V-8 engines.  Ferrari, on the other hand, uses a flat crank to make
a true 180 header easy.  Formula 1 and CART V-8 engines also use flat
cranks.

Flat crank V-8's vibrate like 2 4cyl engines.  A 90 degree crank V-8 has
complete primary and secondary balance with only weights on the crank.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Willis <darkmonahue at awwwsome.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: Turbo header design


>
>Clarence,
>  This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing order,
>as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together.  Commonly done in NA
>headers and OEM manifolds too.  However, true 180 degree headers on a V8
>typically take up a lot of space.
>   The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine, which is
>1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.  Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are):
>
>     1     2        you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is #6, #8's
>     3     4        is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2.
>     5     6
>     7     8        Obviously these are all on opposite banks, so the
>pipes need to travel around the engine some distance to collect in a 180
>degree fashion. I really don't know much about whether the benifits
>would outweigh the extra bulk and length of the exhaust system, but I
>suspect not.
>   HOWEVER it must be said that this arrangement does offer a killer
>sound in NA form!  A gentleman in town has a '53 (?) Studebaker with a
>406 Chevy in it, using standard NASCAR 180-degree headers collected into
>a single exhaust, and it will raise the hair on the back of your neck.
>Almost sounds like an exotic foreign supercar (or a flat-crank V8, come
>to think of it)
>
>HTH
>
>Aaron
>
>ICQ # 27386985



From kenkelly at lucent.com  Thu Jan  7 13:50:43 1999
From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:50:43 -0500
Subject: Vats
Message-ID: <mailman.31756.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Peter,
	I am confused by your answer. I know that in the B & F-body
the key connects to a security module or accessory computer
that generates a pulsed signal. Older Vats used 30 Hz and
the newer units are 50Hz. This signal is applied to an ECM
or PCM pin and is necessary to get proper fuel flow. 

	How is the vette different?

		Ken

Peter Fenske wrote:
> 
> Howday
> 
> A vette is a different animal than a F body..
> 
> The ccm uses the 30/50 Hz signal and checks it.
> If all ok a signal is sent on the data buss to the ecm..
> 
> Only way to do this is to set the vats bit off in the PCM..
> Good thing for 92 this is in a calpak not too hard to do
> 
> take care:peter


From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan  7 14:13:50 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:13:50 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31757.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If someone is going to build one, please contact me (off list),
I'd like a couple, and it would be worth something to me to
have them.   (The measured on time style)
Thanks
Bruce



From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan  7 14:21:40 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:21:40 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter?
Message-ID: <mailman.31758.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hi Guys!  NGK (USA)  is located in Michigan, and the last phone number that
>I have for them is 1-810-489-0110.
>
>
>The sensor harness connector utilizes 7 connections.  Basically, it is a
>6-wire sensor (as made for Horiba and others) plus one other terminal for a
>compensation resistance.

All accurate info, except that the current version of the harness/sensor
uses five wires. The area code MAY have changed to 248. Ted Maatsura is the
name of NGK's manager at that office.

Regards, Greg




From EOA at spartek.com  Thu Jan  7 15:30:10 1999
From: EOA at spartek.com (Eric Aos)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:30:10 -0500
Subject: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31759.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>   The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine, which
is
>>1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.  Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are):
>>
>>     1     2        you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is #6,
#8's
>>     3     4        is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2.
>>     5     6
>>     7     8
>
>#1 and #6 are 180 degrees apart on the distributor, not the crank. #1
and #4
>are 180 degrees apart on the crank. Aren't they? What cylinders are
grouped
>together with NASCAR 180 degree headers?
>
>Jon
>
><snip>
> I think he meant 360 degrees--- :-)

Don't forget the 90deg Bank Angle so with #6 following #4 by 90, it
works out.


From mpitts at netspeak.com  Thu Jan  7 15:36:20 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:36:20 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31760.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Bruce and All,

Check this out:

http://www.radioshack.com/sw/swb/projects/stamp/pulse.htm

never built it myself, but looks like it oughta work.

-----Original Message-----
Bruce "CSH" Plecan mumbled something that sounded like:

If someone is going to build one, please contact me (off list),
I'd like a couple, and it would be worth something to me to
have them.   (The measured on time style)


From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan  7 15:38:16 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:38:16 -0500
Subject: GM P6 PCM Info
Message-ID: <mailman.31761.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: David A. Cooley <n5xmt at bellsouth.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 2:02 AM
Subject: GM P6 PCM Info

Thanks,
Bruce


>Just uploaded the pinout for the GM P6 PCM to the incoming dir...
>File name is: GM_P6_pin.rtf  It's in Rich Text Format.
>
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be
approximated.
>===========================================================
>



From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Thu Jan  7 16:51:34 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:51:34 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31762.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  The tri-Y approach sounds more like the article that I read.  In the article, there were collectors for each bank.  Damn!  I can't find the article!  It is here, under a pile of other treasures, somewhere.  Anyway, they talked about matching the cylinders on each bank to scavenge, put in short baffles that led into a cone shaped collector that narrowed into the exhaust pipe.  
  Now, I hate to share my ignorance with you all, but I have ran into a problem understanding what is probably the most basic operation of a V8 engine.  Here is what I did to determine what cylinders should be matched:

                Firing order         
          1  8  4  3  6  5  7  2
Stroke
  1.      P  C  I  E  P  C  I  E       (P=power,C=comp,I=intake,E=exht)
  2.      E  P  C  I  E  P  C  I
  3.      I  E  P  C  I  E  P  C
  4.      C  I  E  P  C  I  E  P

  Why is cylinder #6 at a power stroke while cylinder #1 is also at a power stroke?  I am trying to find out where each of the cylinders are, in their four stroke cycle, when cylinder #1 is at its Power stroke.  What am I doing wrong??  Where is cylinder #6, in its stroke cycle, when cylinder #1 is on the power stroke?

At 07:56 AM 1/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
>A reasonably close approximation to true 180 deg. headers can be made with
>the old tri-Y approach.  As Aaron wrote, true 180 would require merging 1-6,
>8-5, 4-7, 3-2 which is difficult to make.  Merging 1-5, 3-7, 4-6, 2-8
>enables cylinder pairs to share an exhaust pipe without interfering and is
>relatively easy to build.  This is common in high output European and
>Japanese V-8 engines.  Ferrari, on the other hand, uses a flat crank to make
>a true 180 header easy.  Formula 1 and CART V-8 engines also use flat
>cranks.
>
>Flat crank V-8's vibrate like 2 4cyl engines.  A 90 degree crank V-8 has
>complete primary and secondary balance with only weights on the crank.
>
>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Aaron Willis <darkmonahue at awwwsome.com>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 6:29 PM
>Subject: Re: Turbo header design
>
>
>>
>>Clarence,
>>  This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing order,
>>as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together.  Commonly done in NA
>>headers and OEM manifolds too.  However, true 180 degree headers on a V8
>>typically take up a lot of space.
>>   The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine, which is
>>1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.  Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are):
>>
>>     1     2        you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is #6, #8's
>>     3     4        is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2.
>>     5     6
>>     7     8        Obviously these are all on opposite banks, so the
>>pipes need to travel around the engine some distance to collect in a 180
>>degree fashion. I really don't know much about whether the benifits
>>would outweigh the extra bulk and length of the exhaust system, but I
>>suspect not.
>>   HOWEVER it must be said that this arrangement does offer a killer
>>sound in NA form!  A gentleman in town has a '53 (?) Studebaker with a
>>406 Chevy in it, using standard NASCAR 180-degree headers collected into
>>a single exhaust, and it will raise the hair on the back of your neck.
>>Almost sounds like an exotic foreign supercar (or a flat-crank V8, come
>>to think of it)
>>
>>HTH
>>
>>Aaron
>>
>>ICQ # 27386985
>
>


From clive at problem.tantech.com  Thu Jan  7 17:13:38 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:13:38 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31763.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
>   The tri-Y approach sounds more like the article that I read.  In the article, there were collectors for each bank.  Damn!  I can't find the article!  It is here, under a pile of other treasures, somewhere.  Anyway, they talked about matching the cylinders on each bank to scavenge, put in short baffles that led into a cone shaped collector that narrowed into the exhaust pipe.  
>   Now, I hate to share my ignorance with you all, but I have ran into a problem understanding what is probably the most basic operation of a V8 engine.  Here is what I did to determine what cylinders should be matched:
> 
>                 Firing order         
>           1  8  4  3  6  5  7  2
> Stroke
>   1.      P  C  I  E  P  C  I  E       (P=power,C=comp,I=intake,E=exht)
>   2.      E  P  C  I  E  P  C  I
>   3.      I  E  P  C  I  E  P  C
>   4.      C  I  E  P  C  I  E  P
> 
>   Why is cylinder #6 at a power stroke while cylinder #1 is also at a power stroke?  I am trying to find out where each of the cylinders are, in their four stroke cycle, when cylinder #1 is at its Power stroke.  What am I doing wrong??  Where is cylinder #6, in its stroke cycle, when cylinder #1 is on the power stroke?


you forgot the 90^ offste in the crank

Clive 


From realsquash at yahoo.com  Thu Jan  7 17:54:34 1999
From: realsquash at yahoo.com (andy quaas)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:54:34 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31764.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I just saw an atricle in car craft (i think) where they did a header
test.  On naturally aspirated engines, the tri-y design header created
more HP and torque across the operating range (on a very mild 350
SBC).  I switched from hooker generic headers to doug thorley tri-Y
and the performance boost was noticable.  The first thing i noticed
was the weird exhaust note!  I didnt change pipes or mufflers when i
switched, but the exhaust sounds completely different!

Just some experience nfo.

Andy


---Clarence Wood <clarencewood at centuryinter.net> wrote:
>
>   The tri-Y approach sounds more like the article that I read.  In
the article, there were collectors for each bank.  Damn!  I can't find
the article!  It is here, under a pile of other treasures, somewhere. 
Anyway, they talked about matching the cylinders on each bank to
scavenge, put in short baffles that led into a cone shaped collector
that narrowed into the exhaust pipe.  
>   Now, I hate to share my ignorance with you all, but I have ran
into a problem understanding what is probably the most basic operation
of a V8 engine.  Here is what I did to determine what cylinders should
be matched:
> 
>                 Firing order         
>           1  8  4  3  6  5  7  2
> Stroke
>   1.      P  C  I  E  P  C  I  E      
(P=power,C=comp,I=intake,E=exht)
>   2.      E  P  C  I  E  P  C  I
>   3.      I  E  P  C  I  E  P  C
>   4.      C  I  E  P  C  I  E  P
> 
>   Why is cylinder #6 at a power stroke while cylinder #1 is also at
a power stroke?  I am trying to find out where each of the cylinders
are, in their four stroke cycle, when cylinder #1 is at its Power
stroke.  What am I doing wrong??  Where is cylinder #6, in its stroke
cycle, when cylinder #1 is on the power stroke?
> 
> At 07:56 AM 1/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >A reasonably close approximation to true 180 deg. headers can be
made with
> >the old tri-Y approach.  As Aaron wrote, true 180 would require
merging 1-6,
> >8-5, 4-7, 3-2 which is difficult to make.  Merging 1-5, 3-7, 4-6, 2-8
> >enables cylinder pairs to share an exhaust pipe without interfering
and is
> >relatively easy to build.  This is common in high output European and
> >Japanese V-8 engines.  Ferrari, on the other hand, uses a flat
crank to make
> >a true 180 header easy.  Formula 1 and CART V-8 engines also use flat
> >cranks.
> >
> >Flat crank V-8's vibrate like 2 4cyl engines.  A 90 degree crank
V-8 has
> >complete primary and secondary balance with only weights on the
crank.
> >
> >Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Aaron Willis <darkmonahue at awwwsome.com>
> >To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
<diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> >Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 6:29 PM
> >Subject: Re: Turbo header design
> >
> >
> >>
> >>Clarence,
> >>  This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing
order,
> >>as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together.  Commonly done in NA
> >>headers and OEM manifolds too.  However, true 180 degree headers
on a V8
> >>typically take up a lot of space.
> >>   The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine,
which is
> >>1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.  Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are):
> >>
> >>     1     2        you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is
#6, #8's
> >>     3     4        is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2.
> >>     5     6
> >>     7     8        Obviously these are all on opposite banks, so
the
> >>pipes need to travel around the engine some distance to collect in
a 180
> >>degree fashion. I really don't know much about whether the benifits
> >>would outweigh the extra bulk and length of the exhaust system,
but I
> >>suspect not.
> >>   HOWEVER it must be said that this arrangement does offer a killer
> >>sound in NA form!  A gentleman in town has a '53 (?) Studebaker
with a
> >>406 Chevy in it, using standard NASCAR 180-degree headers
collected into
> >>a single exhaust, and it will raise the hair on the back of your
neck.
> >>Almost sounds like an exotic foreign supercar (or a flat-crank V8,
come
> >>to think of it)
> >>
> >>HTH
> >>
> >>Aaron
> >>
> >>ICQ # 27386985
> >
> >
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Thu Jan  7 18:31:11 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:31:11 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31765.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Tom Sharpe wrote:

> > >Caddy used to use CV drive-shaft joints like that too--quieter and
> > >smoother, cuzza no accel/decel of the driveshaft as it rotates. There is
> > a
> > >little sphere and socket in the center that keeps 'em aligned. Mid '70's
> > >Chevy full-time 4x4 trucks used a similar joint at the transfer case end
> > of
> > >their front drive shaft, too.
> >
> > Do you have any idea where I can get such a critter?
> 
> All early Broncos had them... Tom
> 
> 
CV joints made up from 2 standard cardan joints all have centering
devices. there are two common brands- saginaw and spicer. For some reason,
GM used a lot of spicers whereas others used the Saginaw. Go figure.
Anyway, every domestic 4X4 that had the transfer case bolted to the
transmission [and some that didnt] used a CV joint of this type on the
front shaft at the T case end it seems to me. The saginaw type has a
simpler but better [IMO] centering ball setup as compared to the spicer
because it is less likely to die an unrepairable death. OTOH, the saginaw
uses the frankenstein type plastic retaining setup for the cardan joints
which is a problem if you dont have a torch...

Many 70s GM cars also used the saginaw CV. Cheaper cars had one at the
rear axle, while more expensive cars had two, one at either end of the
driveshaft.

If I had to choose, I would stay with the saginaw over the spicer because
of the centering ball rebuildability thing.

Of course, a Tripod or a Rzeppa will handle more angularity than either of
the above... you could also dig up and use an old Mopar ball&trunnion
joint, which will also handle more angularity than the saginaw or spicer,
plus it is a plunge joint, so it handles the slipyoke problem, too.



From wsherwin at idirect.com  Thu Jan  7 19:30:22 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:30:22 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter?
Message-ID: <mailman.31766.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks Greg!

Walt.

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?Walter?


>>Hi Guys!  NGK (USA)  is located in Michigan, and the last phone number
that
>>I have for them is 1-810-489-0110.
>>
>>
>>The sensor harness connector utilizes 7 connections.  Basically, it is a
>>6-wire sensor (as made for Horiba and others) plus one other terminal for
a
>>compensation resistance.
>
>All accurate info, except that the current version of the harness/sensor
>uses five wires. The area code MAY have changed to 248. Ted Maatsura is the
>name of NGK's manager at that office.
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>



From aarona at fea.net  Thu Jan  7 19:30:51 1999
From: aarona at fea.net (Aaron Andrews)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:30:51 -0500
Subject: FI system opinion?
Message-ID: <mailman.31767.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Just wanted to get anyone's opinion on the Racetech SDS FI System that is a
complete programmable system
for $650, add $350 for a distributorless ignition and engine management
system?

TIA
Aaron



From wsherwin at idirect.com  Thu Jan  7 19:35:12 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:35:12 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31768.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>DUTY CYCLE is calculated, by meters, as the percentage of time the
>circuit is "asserted" between event triggers. This means that the
>"period" is measured from injector opening to injector opening, or
>injector closing to injector closing. The percentage of this period
>occupied by the "asserted" mode, or injector energized, is read as DUTY
>CYCLE. As such, there is NO requirement to know the firing mode of the
>engine, or anything else. It WILL be accurate.
>The DUTY RATIO is the ratio of time on vs time off and is generally not
>used. This would be stated as 8:2, not 80%. Even with duty ratio, the
>effect is the same - conversion is direct as long as the 2 numbers
>(before and after colon) add up to 10.
>
>I fail to see how the injection mode can affect this.



From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan  7 20:25:22 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:25:22 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31769.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



FOR THIS PARTICULAR V-8> (IT HAS A 90 degree crank)
>                Firing order
>          1  8  4  3  6  5  7  2

With this firing order, take every other cylinder in the firing order if
you want  180 degree (crank rotation) spaced pulses into a pair of 4 into 1
collectors:

1, 4, 6, & 7 go into one collector (two end cylinders from one bank, and
the two center cylinders from the other bank.

8, 3, 5, & 2 go into the other collector. (the two end cylinders on the
other side, and the two middles from the first side.

If you want PROPERLY done tri-wyes, go 1/2 way around the firing order, so
that the pulses in the pairs of tubes which combine at the first wye are
spaced evenly, 360 (crank) degrees apart:

1 & 6; 8 &5; 4 & 7; 3 & 2. As you can see, each pair takes one tube from
each bank of the motor.

Then, at the second wye, pair 1-6 with 4-7 and pair 8-5 with 3-2 so as to
get evenly spaced pulses at the second wye in each header.

If you wanna go with REALLY long tri-wye branches, (surprising how
fantastically good this is for street, high torque, & 4x4 type apps.) start
out with a regular set of 4 into one headers (of the smallest tube size you
can find), cut them off a bit before the collectors, and do the snaking
back and forth under the bell housing/tranny to get the correct first wye
pairings. The second branches want to be the same length as the first ones,
but there are no crossovers if you plan ahead. After the four second
branches combine into two (tertiary) pipes, you want a length of pipe of
length equal to all the first and second branches. At the end of that pipe,
you need a gap (no diameter change of offset in the pipe) in the pipe about
3/4 inch long. Put an empty plenum chamber around that gap. The volume of
the plenum needs to be maybe double the internal volume of the last
(single) length of pipe feeding it. Just run a full size tail pipe and low
restriction muffler behind the plenum (Not much vehicle length left after
this, anyway!)
The headers will effectively see the plenum as an open ended (to
atmosphere) pipe. DO NOT omit the plenum, it is worth quite a bit of HP and
response!
For street stuff, usually, primary tubes 1 trade size SMALLER than the size
which can be swedged square to fit into a flange and match the port
properly work out to be the correct size. (If a 1-7/8" tube can be squared
at one end and fitted into a flange so that the inside of that tube matches
the port shape, then run the primary tubes with 1-3/4 " tubing.) You want
the internal AREA of your primary tubes to be about equal to the
cros-sectional AREA of the exhaust port. The above is what usually works
out right. (Especially if the engine designer did his homework!) The extra
work involved in getting down to the smaller tube size is why most off the
shelf headers use too big a tube size!  Figure the length of the primary
tubes so that each of their internal volumes is about 140% of the
displacement of an individual cylinder. (For instance, for a 350 cid V-8,
using 1-3/4" tubes (which are about 1-5/8" inside diameter in 16 gauge
tube, this would mean you want (at least) 24 inch long primary tubes.) (And
if you are using lighter than 16 gauge tubing, don't bother!)
If the primaries are 1-3/4", then 2" is usually about right for the
secondaries, and 2-1/4" for the next ones. (A quarter inch increase in tube
size at each successive wye is usually about right.

1-3/4" diameter primary tube size was only an example. It is prolly BIG for
a street 350, 1-5/8" or 1-1/2" is more likely to be right (but with more
tube length so as to get to the same internal tube volume!)

If you build a set of tri-wyes this way, they will sound and run like
nothing else! The throttle response will be astounding! But it is a ROYAL
pain in the #@$% to do it!

All my experience says that the biggest gain from headers is from giving as
much of the exhaust gas as possible somewhere to go freely during the
"blowdown" part of the exhaust stroke--before the piston starts back up
significantly. Yes, it's nice to have a low pressure pulse in the exhaust
port at overlap, and that pulse helps to scavenge clearance gasses if you
have it there at the right time, but the longer you can keep the blowdown
stage flow sonic, the less work the engine will have to waste pumping
exhaust gas out of its cylinders, and the more sonic energy there will be
available for creation of a scavenging pulse!

Regards, Greg




From wsherwin at idirect.com  Thu Jan  7 20:27:04 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:27:04 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31770.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>
>DUTY CYCLE is calculated, by meters, as the percentage of time the
>circuit is "asserted" between event triggers. This means that the
>"period" is measured from injector opening to injector opening, or
>injector closing to injector closing. The percentage of this period
>occupied by the "asserted" mode, or injector energized, is read as DUTY
>CYCLE. As such, there is NO requirement to know the firing mode of the
>engine, or anything else. It WILL be accurate.
>The DUTY RATIO is the ratio of time on vs time off and is generally not
>used. This would be stated as 8:2, not 80%. Even with duty ratio, the
>effect is the same - conversion is direct as long as the 2 numbers
>(before and after colon) add up to 10.
>
>I fail to see how the injection mode can affect this.





I agree with everything you have said, but ONLY when the entire period
between event triggers can be used for the purpose of injection.  What if a
portion of the period between triggers is programmatically inhibited?

Consider this example...... A sequentially injected, V8, at 5000 RPM, with
say a 7ms commanded pulsewidth, and operating under the guidance  of a
control system which only permits injection to occur during a portion of the
engine airflow cycle defined by 20 degrees BTDC through to 40 degrees ABDC.

The period between consecutive "Start" triggers, for a given injector would
be about 24ms (lets call this "Maximum" time).   The period between the
"Start" trigger and the target "End" trigger for that same injector would be
about 8ms (lets call this "Ultimate" time).   The real Duty Cycle of the
injector would then be 7ms/8ms = 87.5%?       On the otherhand, would your
meter not interpret this as 7ms/24ms = 29%?

You can also run into a similar problem with TBI fueling, if the system you
are using can flip/flop from synchronous (event driven) delivery to
asynchronous (time driven) delivery.

If you don't agree then please let me know!  You're in Ontario too?  What
part?  Say "Hi" sometime, offline.


Take Care;
Walt.




From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan  7 20:31:51 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:31:51 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31771.1369893289.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

... you could also dig up and use an old Mopar ball&trunnion
>joint, which will also handle more angularity than the saginaw or spicer,
>plus it is a plunge joint, so it handles the slipyoke problem, too.

Is this the proper name for the things I have inside the (closed type)
steering knuckles of one of my Dana 70F steerable drive axles, which I have
always heard called (usually affectionately) "Chinese Puzzle Joints"??? Or
are they something else again??

Regards, Greg




From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan  7 20:37:07 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:37:07 -0500
Subject: 128K vs 256K Proms in one ecm
Message-ID: <mailman.31772.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Could some one splan to me why if the 739+749 use the same
PCB, why the 730 will not see a 128K prom, and a 749 sees 
either. 
730 using AUJP  749 using syclone campaign chip 
  On a 730 (92 Camaro), there is a 4th gear switch, that the ecm
"uses", anyone know for what?,  timing, fuel, TCC all seem the same
wiether it's on or off.
  There is a difference in TCC pinouts from 749 to 730.
The 730 basically leaves the EGR on all the time and flickers it once
in a while to test, it.  749 seems to not even flicker it, strange.

On the syclone idle if it's below 550 the IAC retracts, that's fine,
but as it exceeds 575 goin to a desired 600 the 600 jumps to 1250
anyone played with this??  Seems like would be lousy idling.
Bruce



From JemisonR at tce.com  Thu Jan  7 20:56:09 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:56:09 -0500
Subject: FI system opinion?
Message-ID: <mailman.31773.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Pricey!

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Aaron Andrews [SMTP:aarona at fea.net]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:31 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	FI system opinion?
> 
> Just wanted to get anyone's opinion on the Racetech SDS FI System that is
> a
> complete programmable system
> for $650, add $350 for a distributorless ignition and engine management
> system?
> 
> TIA
> Aaron


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Thu Jan  7 21:41:39 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:41:39 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31774.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Walter Sherwin wrote:
> 
> >
> >DUTY CYCLE is calculated, by meters, as the percentage of time the
> >circuit is "asserted" between event triggers. This means that the
> >"period" is measured from injector opening to injector opening, or
> >injector closing to injector closing. The percentage of this period
> >occupied by the "asserted" mode, or injector energized, is read as DUTY
> >CYCLE. As such, there is NO requirement to know the firing mode of the
> >engine, or anything else. It WILL be accurate.
> >The DUTY RATIO is the ratio of time on vs time off and is generally not
> >used. This would be stated as 8:2, not 80%. Even with duty ratio, the
> >effect is the same - conversion is direct as long as the 2 numbers
> >(before and after colon) add up to 10.
> >
> >I fail to see how the injection mode can affect this.
> 
> I agree with everything you have said, but ONLY when the entire period
> between event triggers can be used for the purpose of injection.  What if a
> portion of the period between triggers is programmatically inhibited?
> 
> Consider this example...... A sequentially injected, V8, at 5000 RPM, with
> say a 7ms commanded pulsewidth, and operating under the guidance  of a
> control system which only permits injection to occur during a portion of the
> engine airflow cycle defined by 20 degrees BTDC through to 40 degrees ABDC.
> 
> The period between consecutive "Start" triggers, for a given injector would
> be about 24ms (lets call this "Maximum" time).   The period between the
> "Start" trigger and the target "End" trigger for that same injector would be
> about 8ms (lets call this "Ultimate" time).   The real Duty Cycle of the
> injector would then be 7ms/8ms = 87.5%?       On the otherhand, would your
> meter not interpret this as 7ms/24ms = 29%?
> 
> You can also run into a similar problem with TBI fueling, if the system you
> are using can flip/flop from synchronous (event driven) delivery to
> asynchronous (time driven) delivery.
> 
> If you don't agree then please let me know!  You're in Ontario too?  What
> part?  Say "Hi" sometime, offline.
> 
> Take Care;
> Walt.
>From Waterloo Ontario - yes it would read as you state - but no problem.
What we are trying to do is make sure the injector is not "locked on" or
run in fire-hose mode. The "experts" say 80% is maximum, and in the
scenario you propose, anything approaching 80% would be impossible.


From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Thu Jan  7 22:09:55 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:09:55 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31775.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> My question is: why can't this be applied to the header of a turbo'=
-> d engine: pre-turbo.  I know that the turbine is already turning and
-> = therefor creating a vacuum; but, at velocities reaching .75 mach,
-> wou= ldn't any tuning, like using the 180 out exhaust arrangement
-> help??  =

 That's exactly how the factory exhaust on my Yamaha XJ650 Turbo is
configured.  It could be considered a long 180 collector or a short
second branch tri-Y.  The service manual says it smoothes the exhaust
pulses to make the turbo slightly more responsive than a normal
collector.
                                                                                                                         


From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan  7 22:18:26 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:18:26 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31776.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>
>>DUTY CYCLE is calculated, by meters, as the percentage of time the
>>circuit is "asserted" between event triggers. This means that the
>>"period" is measured from injector opening to injector opening, or
>>injector closing to injector closing. The percentage of this period
>>occupied by the "asserted" mode, or injector energized, is read as DUTY
>>CYCLE. As such, there is NO requirement to know the firing mode of the
>>engine, or anything else. It WILL be accurate.
>>The DUTY RATIO is the ratio of time on vs time off and is generally not
>>used. This would be stated as 8:2, not 80%. Even with duty ratio, the
>>effect is the same - conversion is direct as long as the 2 numbers
>>(before and after colon) add up to 10.
>>
>>I fail to see how the injection mode can affect this.
>
>
>
>
>
>I agree with everything you have said, but ONLY when the entire period
>between event triggers can be used for the purpose of injection.  What if a
>portion of the period between triggers is programmatically inhibited?
>
>Consider this example...... A sequentially injected, V8, at 5000 RPM, with
>say a 7ms commanded pulsewidth, and operating under the guidance  of a
>control system which only permits injection to occur during a portion of the
>engine airflow cycle defined by 20 degrees BTDC through to 40 degrees ABDC.
>
>The period between consecutive "Start" triggers, for a given injector would
>be about 24ms (lets call this "Maximum" time).   The period between the
>"Start" trigger and the target "End" trigger for that same injector would be
>about 8ms (lets call this "Ultimate" time).   The real Duty Cycle of the
>injector would then be 7ms/8ms = 87.5%?       On the otherhand, would your
>meter not interpret this as 7ms/24ms = 29%?
>
>You can also run into a similar problem with TBI fueling, if the system you
>are using can flip/flop from synchronous (event driven) delivery to
>asynchronous (time driven) delivery.
>
>If you don't agree then please let me know!  You're in Ontario too?  What
>part?  Say "Hi" sometime, offline.
>
>
>Take Care;
>Walt.

I disagree, Walt-- duty cycle is time on per event spacing, not time on per
max time allowed by the program. It is only semantics, but time on per
event spacing is what any normal meter will read, plus it is the definition
of duty cycle which will relate directly to fuel used per unit time and
thus directly to horsepower.

Greg




From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Thu Jan  7 22:25:43 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:25:43 -0500
Subject: Delco 639
Message-ID: <mailman.31777.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Have any of you guys come accross a DELCO 16208639???
>they have no memcal......same size as a 165/808
>They come out od the 94 Holden Barina 1.4 Auto
>
>Justin

Wasn't the Barina a re-badged Suzuki or something?, if it is a re-badge it's
probably using whatever Suzuki used in their equivilent, just with a Delco
P/N.
The Holden Calibra, it's says Holden, but it's full of Bosch electronics,
not Delco.

Regards

Ross Myers




From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan  7 22:38:46 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:38:46 -0500
Subject: Fw: 128K vs 256K Proms in one ecm
Message-ID: <mailman.31778.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Please ignore the 1250 idle comment
Bruce


-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
To: DIY_EFI <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 4:13 PM
Subject: 128K vs 256K Proms in one ecm


>Could some one splan to me why if the 739+749 use the same
>PCB, why the 730 will not see a 128K prom, and a 749 sees 
>either. 
>730 using AUJP  749 using syclone campaign chip 
>  On a 730 (92 Camaro), there is a 4th gear switch, that the ecm
>"uses", anyone know for what?,  timing, fuel, TCC all seem the same
>wiether it's on or off.
>  There is a difference in TCC pinouts from 749 to 730.
>The 730 basically leaves the EGR on all the time and flickers it once
>in a while to test, it.  749 seems to not even flicker it, strange.
>
>On the syclone idle if it's below 550 the IAC retracts, that's fine,
>but as it exceeds 575 goin to a desired 600 the 600 jumps to 1250
>anyone played with this??  Seems like would be lousy idling.
>Bruce
>



From aarona at fea.net  Thu Jan  7 22:59:34 1999
From: aarona at fea.net (Aaron Andrews)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:59:34 -0500
Subject: FI system opinion?
Message-ID: <mailman.31779.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Do you know of a cheaper easier to use solution?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jemison Richard <JemisonR at tce.com>
To: <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 12:56 PM
Subject: RE: FI system opinion?


Pricey!

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aaron Andrews [SMTP:aarona at fea.net]
> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:31 PM
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: FI system opinion?
> 
> Just wanted to get anyone's opinion on the Racetech SDS FI System that is
> a
> complete programmable system
> for $650, add $350 for a distributorless ignition and engine management
> system?
> 
> TIA
> Aaron




From ECMnut at aol.com  Thu Jan  7 23:01:12 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:01:12 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31780.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/7/99 5:19:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us writes:

> 
>   That's exactly how the factory exhaust on my Yamaha XJ650 Turbo is
>  configured.  It could be considered a long 180 collector or a short
>  second branch tri-Y.  The service manual says it smoothes the exhaust
>  pulses to make the turbo slightly more responsive than a normal
>  collector.
>                                                                             
How exactly is it? like two two-into-ones?
Thanks,
Mike V.


From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Thu Jan  7 23:01:17 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:01:17 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31781.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

WOW!  Thank you Greg!  
  Now, how do you accomplish the task of giving the exhaust gasses somewhere to go freely during the "blowdown" part of the exhaust stroke?  What is the best header design to accomplish this for turbo charged engines?  For NA engines?  Is there one technique that seems to be more effective than other techniques?  Is it pipe width, or length or both?
  Also, what is "sonic energy"?  I know it refers to sound but I have never thought of sound as being part of exhaust energy.  How does sonic energy create a scavenging pulse?  Is it something you have to design into the header?  If so, what is the criteria for the design?  I guess what I am trying to ask, is, how do you look for this in a specific header design?  What tells you that the header design uses sonic energy effectively?  How does the tri-wyes header relate to the above?  

At 01:21 PM 1/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
<snip>
>All my experience says that the biggest gain from headers is from giving as
>much of the exhaust gas as possible somewhere to go freely during the
>"blowdown" part of the exhaust stroke--before the piston starts back up
>significantly. Yes, it's nice to have a low pressure pulse in the exhaust
>port at overlap, and that pulse helps to scavenge clearance gasses if you
>have it there at the right time, but the longer you can keep the blowdown
>stage flow sonic, the less work the engine will have to waste pumping
>exhaust gas out of its cylinders, and the more sonic energy there will be
>available for creation of a scavenging pulse!
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>
>


From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan  7 23:19:10 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:19:10 -0500
Subject: FI system opinion?
Message-ID: <mailman.31782.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Andrews <aarona at fea.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: FI system opinion?


>Do you know of a cheaper easier to use solution?

Solution to what?.  What application, what are you doing?.
Bruce
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jemison Richard <JemisonR at tce.com>
>To: <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 12:56 PM
>Subject: RE: FI system opinion?
>
>
>Pricey!
>
>Rick
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Aaron Andrews [SMTP:aarona at fea.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:31 PM
>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> Subject: FI system opinion?
>>
>> Just wanted to get anyone's opinion on the Racetech SDS FI System that is
>> a
>> complete programmable system
>> for $650, add $350 for a distributorless ignition and engine management
>> system?
>>
>> TIA
>> Aaron
>
>



From scicior at uswest.com  Thu Jan  7 23:31:32 1999
From: scicior at uswest.com (Steven Ciciora)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:31:32 -0500
Subject: Duty Cycle Monitor Group Buy
Message-ID: <mailman.31783.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've believed that there has been a need for a duty cycle monitor for
some time, and have been looking for some time to build one, but with no
luck.  It seems like one or two people out there have plans.  I would be
willing to voulenteer to put together a kit (design PCB, order parts,
etc) for such a beast, if someone had some working source code.  I can
program PICs, too.  What _I_ would like to see on a display is on time
(in ms), off time, frequency (and/or RPM), and duty cycle (in %).  All
on an LCD Display.  

If anyone has some PIC source code, please let me know.

Steven Ciciora


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Fri Jan  8 00:09:23 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:09:23 -0500
Subject: GM P6 PCM Info
Message-ID: <mailman.31784.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Also made a plain text version...

At 10:41 AM 1/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David A. Cooley <n5xmt at bellsouth.net>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 2:02 AM
>Subject: GM P6 PCM Info
>
>Thanks,
>Bruce
>
>
>>Just uploaded the pinout for the GM P6 PCM to the incoming dir...
>>File name is: GM_P6_pin.rtf  It's in Rich Text Format.
>>
>>===========================================================
>>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be
>approximated.
>>===========================================================
>>
>

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From aarona at fea.net  Fri Jan  8 00:31:04 1999
From: aarona at fea.net (Aaron Andrews)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:31:04 -0500
Subject: FI system opinion?
Message-ID: <mailman.31785.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

What we are looking for is a solution to a 1.3/1.6ltr TBI injection system,
and or 1.3 Twincam MPI injection system. Something that can be preprogrammed
and setup as a kit. I have found this solution to the Twincam mpi and that
seems to work. The deal is that WE HAVE to go distributorless because of the
firewall (cam/disty run into the firewall and have to pound it out) This
application is for Suzuki Samurais/Sidekicks.

Aaron


----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
To: <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: FI system opinion?



-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Andrews <aarona at fea.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: FI system opinion?


>Do you know of a cheaper easier to use solution?

Solution to what?.  What application, what are you doing?.
Bruce
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jemison Richard <JemisonR at tce.com>
>To: <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 12:56 PM
>Subject: RE: FI system opinion?
>
>
>Pricey!
>
>Rick
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Aaron Andrews [SMTP:aarona at fea.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:31 PM
>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> Subject: FI system opinion?
>>
>> Just wanted to get anyone's opinion on the Racetech SDS FI System that is
>> a
>> complete programmable system
>> for $650, add $350 for a distributorless ignition and engine management
>> system?
>>
>> TIA
>> Aaron
>
>





From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Fri Jan  8 00:40:48 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:40:48 -0500
Subject: EFI on a Dodge 318
Message-ID: <mailman.31786.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Dear Frederic

It is a NAPA part. Outer dia 0.916 innner standard..
Don't have the #s handy

gl:peter

Ps remember to locktite the #@#$$%#@@# out it





Frederic Breitwieser <frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com> on 01/05/99
06:29:26 PM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To:      diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu,                  
          diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu                   
                                                              
 cc:      (bcc: Peter Fenske/BCIT)                            
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: Re: EFI on a Dodge 318                              
                                                              








>Mucho better than trying to use grease to put in the counter
>shaft bearings. The darn things always fall out

Good advice, thank you.

>Oh yes Mopar Perf has a special pilot bushing just for auto.
>No machining needed.

So Peter, let me get this straight - my understanding is that I can use an
auto crank with the manual transmission by using a special mopar part?


Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

Homebrew Automotive Website:
http://www.xephic.dynip.com/

1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 HMMWV
1973 Lincoln Continental (460cid)
1975 Dodge D200 3/4 ton Club Cab
2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car

-





From rah at horizon.hit.net  Fri Jan  8 00:43:04 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:43:04 -0500
Subject: 128K vs 256K Proms in one ecm
Message-ID: <mailman.31787.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> Could some one splan to me why if the 739+749 use the same
> PCB, why the 730 will not see a 128K prom, and a 749 sees 
> either. 
> 730 using AUJP  749 using syclone campaign chip 
>   On a 730 (92 Camaro), there is a 4th gear switch, that the ecm
> "uses", anyone know for what?,  timing, fuel, TCC all seem the same
> wiether it's on or off.
>   There is a difference in TCC pinouts from 749 to 730.
> The 730 basically leaves the EGR on all the time and flickers it once
> in a while to test, it.  749 seems to not even flicker it, strange.
> 
> On the syclone idle if it's below 550 the IAC retracts, that's fine,
> but as it exceeds 575 goin to a desired 600 the 600 jumps to 1250
> anyone played with this??  Seems like would be lousy idling.
> Bruce
> 
> 
The 93's seem to have switches for all gears, but there is some code
to dectect a downshift from 4th (basically if you aren't in 4th now
and your where last time then).   I appears to time the 4-3,4-2
downshift, and there is a parameter in the 93 prom that lists how long
it takes (0x05 passes).   It seems to prevent part throttle locking in
the 93's while a downshift is in progress.  I don't yet know what else
it is used for.  It also looks to be used for some other TCC type
things.  In the 92's is the TCC computer controlled yet?

			Roge



From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Fri Jan  8 00:50:02 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:50:02 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31788.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Greg Hermann wrote:

> ... you could also dig up and use an old Mopar ball&trunnion
> >joint, which will also handle more angularity than the saginaw or spicer,
> >plus it is a plunge joint, so it handles the slipyoke problem, too.
> 
> Is this the proper name for the things I have inside the (closed type)
> steering knuckles of one of my Dana 70F steerable drive axles, which I have
> always heard called (usually affectionately) "Chinese Puzzle Joints"??? Or
> are they something else again??
> 
Most closed [ball] type 4X4 front axle steering joints were Rzeppas but
dana/Spicer did make an elcheapo replacement that looked somewhat like a
rubics cube. dont know what brands/years used it, but I will bet that jeep
would be a likely candidate. But I dont think they ever used anything
bigger than a 44. IIRC, the first 4X4 to use anything bigger than a 44 was
mopar with some HD 3/4 ton front axles.



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan  8 00:50:53 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:50:53 -0500
Subject: FI system opinion?
Message-ID: <mailman.31789.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Andrews <aarona at fea.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: FI system opinion?

How about a Haltech E6GM, uses all gm stuff, list was 695 for the ecm
and software.
Bruce


>What we are looking for is a solution to a 1.3/1.6ltr TBI injection system,
>and or 1.3 Twincam MPI injection system. Something that can be
preprogrammed
>and setup as a kit. I have found this solution to the Twincam mpi and that
>seems to work. The deal is that WE HAVE to go distributorless because of
the
>firewall (cam/disty run into the firewall and have to pound it out) This
>application is for Suzuki Samurais/Sidekicks.
>
>Aaron
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
>To: <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 3:22 PM
>Subject: Re: FI system opinion?
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Aaron Andrews <aarona at fea.net>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 6:13 PM
>Subject: Re: FI system opinion?
>
>
>>Do you know of a cheaper easier to use solution?
>
>Solution to what?.  What application, what are you doing?.
>Bruce
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Jemison Richard <JemisonR at tce.com>
>>To: <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>>Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 12:56 PM
>>Subject: RE: FI system opinion?
>>
>>
>>Pricey!
>>
>>Rick
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Aaron Andrews [SMTP:aarona at fea.net]
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:31 PM
>>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>>> Subject: FI system opinion?
>>>
>>> Just wanted to get anyone's opinion on the Racetech SDS FI System that
is
>>> a
>>> complete programmable system
>>> for $650, add $350 for a distributorless ignition and engine management
>>> system?
>>>
>>> TIA
>>> Aaron
>>
>>
>
>
>



From ECMnut at aol.com  Fri Jan  8 00:51:49 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:51:49 -0500
Subject: 128K vs 256K Proms in one ecm
Message-ID: <mailman.31790.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/7/99 7:45:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rah at horizon.hit.net writes:

> In the 92's is the TCC computer controlled yet?

Yes it is.....
mike V


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Fri Jan  8 01:17:52 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:17:52 -0500
Subject: ECM and Chip help
Message-ID: <mailman.31791.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello all,
a friend is Looking to find a chip or ECM...
ECM part number is: 1226025
The chip broadcast code is APM or CDC.
These were used in the 1983 Carbureted Turbo V6 buick Regals.
Thanks,
Dave


===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From orin at wolfenet.com  Fri Jan  8 01:46:20 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:46:20 -0500
Subject: Duty Cycle Monitor Group Buy
Message-ID: <mailman.31792.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> I've believed that there has been a need for a duty cycle monitor for
> some time, and have been looking for some time to build one, but with no
> luck.  It seems like one or two people out there have plans.  I would be
> willing to voulenteer to put together a kit (design PCB, order parts,
> etc) for such a beast, if someone had some working source code.  I can
> program PICs, too.  What _I_ would like to see on a display is on time
> (in ms), off time, frequency (and/or RPM), and duty cycle (in %).  All
> on an LCD Display.  

> If anyone has some PIC source code, please let me know.

Look for dataaq.zip on the ftp site.  It drives a standard LCD,
does two duty cycles as-is.  It does RPM off flywheel teeth.
It uses a PIC 16C73.  A PCB design exists in EasyTrax if you
want AtoD, thermocouple inputs and RS232 output as well, though the PCB isn't
in the zip file.

It would need some work to make it a little more generic or
to display times as well as duty cycles.

As I mentioned earlier, I also have a PIC 16C84 design for a
2 digit duty cycle meter which I have yet to upload...

Orin.


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Fri Jan  8 01:59:07 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:59:07 -0500
Subject: Duty Cycle Monitor Group Buy
Message-ID: <mailman.31793.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Steven Ciciora wrote:

> I've believed that there has been a need for a duty cycle monitor for
> some time, and have been looking for some time to build one, but with no
> luck.  It seems like one or two people out there have plans.  I would be
> willing to voulenteer to put together a kit (design PCB, order parts,
> etc) for such a beast, if someone had some working source code.  I can
> program PICs, too.  What _I_ would like to see on a display is on time
> (in ms), off time, frequency (and/or RPM), and duty cycle (in %).  All
> on an LCD Display.  
> 
> If anyone has some PIC source code, please let me know.
> 
> Steven Ciciora
> 

I have some comments and questions.

What is a PIC?

I think you can build one with a comparator, two 12 bit counters, some
gates, a 10khz clock, and something to convert the numbers from the
counters to display on a lcd/led (I think there are chips to do
this).  It looks pretty simple to design especially at low
frequencies.

			Roger
			BSEE



From ECMnut at aol.com  Fri Jan  8 02:01:00 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:01:00 -0500
Subject: ECM and Chip help
Message-ID: <mailman.31794.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Dave,
looks like a heavily used ECM in 83 only...
Looks like just about any 2.8 GM in 83 used it.
It was available in:
83 Olds Ciera, 2.8
83 Pont Phoenix 2.8
83 Riv, nonturbo, 3.8
83 Chev Impala, 5.0
83 Chev.Camaro, 2.8 liter
83 Pont.Parisiene, 5.0
83 S10 truck, 2.8
83 Blazer, 2.8 
83 Chev.Citation, 2.8
83 Pont.Gran Prix, 5.0
83 Olds Omega, 2.8
83 Buick Skylark2.8
Chip will be different however..
Mike V

> Hello all,
>  a friend is Looking to find a chip or ECM...
>  ECM part number is: 1226025
>  The chip broadcast code is APM or CDC.
>  These were used in the 1983 Carbureted Turbo V6 buick Regals.
>  Thanks,
>  Dave


From chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  Fri Jan  8 02:08:12 1999
From: chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jake Sternberg)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:08:12 -0500
Subject: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale!
Message-ID: <mailman.31795.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I have an aluminum 215 cubic inch (3525 cubic centimeters) V8
from an oldsmobile/buick/triumph/TRV/land rover/etc.

This is the aluminum V8 everyone has been talking about. It's
so light you can pick up the block with one hand, and both
heads with the other.  The intake manifold is a one-finger
item.

Comes disassembled with pistons, rods, nuts, bolts, oil pump,
pickup screen, oil pan, heads, valve covers, valves, nuts,
bolts, front cover, rear cover, crank, camshaft, etc..
exhaust manifolds, intake manifold, flywheel, generator,
EVERYTHING. (no starter but i think a plain buick V6 will fit)

Includes transmission!  This is a weird item: automatic trans
with SIX positions/notches on the shifter arm (PRND321 ??) plus
a kickdown lever. NO TORQUE CONVERTER OR CLUTCH; it just has a
disc that looks like a clutch disc, but has boltholes instead of
a friction material.  It bolts onto the flywheel (included with
the engine) and drives the transmission directly.  This is all
that i know about the transmission.

This motor would make a great small car swap, as the entire setup
will weigh less than an iron 4 cylinder by far and is much meaner.
This motor is smaller than a chevy V8 by far enough that
mounting it in a volvo or something would be a piece of cake.

My price is $500 for everything, not including shipping.
I'm in austin, texas..

-jake
chickens at mail.utexas.edu




From JemisonR at tce.com  Fri Jan  8 02:19:19 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:19:19 -0500
Subject: FI system opinion?
Message-ID: <mailman.31796.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Sure!  There's a real nice one on the EFI332 page.  Or build your own.  I'm
shooting at using a PIC courtesy of some helpful information gleaned from
some really great and quite knowledgeable people on this list!

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Aaron Andrews [SMTP:aarona at fea.net]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 07, 1999 6:00 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: FI system opinion?
> 
> Do you know of a cheaper easier to use solution?
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Jemison Richard <JemisonR at tce.com>
> To: <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 12:56 PM
> Subject: RE: FI system opinion?
> 
> 
> Pricey!
> 
> Rick
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Aaron Andrews [SMTP:aarona at fea.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:31 PM
> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > Subject: FI system opinion?
> > 
> > Just wanted to get anyone's opinion on the Racetech SDS FI System that
> is
> > a
> > complete programmable system
> > for $650, add $350 for a distributorless ignition and engine management
> > system?
> > 
> > TIA
> > Aaron
> 


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Fri Jan  8 02:21:09 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:21:09 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31797.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Clarence Wood wrote:

> I am having trouble relating the equalization of intake pressure to the exhaust port pressure.  I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I don't understand.

Imagine a NA motor with a really bad exhaust on a dyno at see level (14.7 lbs). Go up a mountain to 10K feet and measure the power. What is the power? (down) What is the power relative to the "pressure"?

Take the motor to the bottom of a really, really deep mine, say where the barometric pressure pressure is 2 atmospheres, (14.7 lbs boost). Got the idea???  Measure the power. Is it better??? Now put a better exhaust system on it. What happens?

The better the turbo is sized, (the closer to the peak efficiency island it is operating in), the lower the exhaust pressure will be relative to the intake (and vice-versa). It could even be lower but probably isn't.

Regards  Tom



From ECMnut at aol.com  Fri Jan  8 02:22:42 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:22:42 -0500
Subject: Injector help...  Can anyone look these up?
Message-ID: <mailman.31798.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If anyone is in the know
with Japanese injectors, could you take a look at some
injector pics that I put on a page?
I have access to lots of Japanese engine parts, and have a bunch of
injectors that I've been trying to identify.  One kind person was
able to give me application & flow rates for a single injector, but
I lost his email address.  His name was Jason...
The injectors pics are at:
www.enzoco.com/mike/injector
TIA
Mike V


From e.schumacher at worldnet.att.net  Fri Jan  8 02:23:02 1999
From: e.schumacher at worldnet.att.net (Eric Schumacher)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:23:02 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31799.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

3M makes some stuff they call Louver Film. It comes in a sheet (.062 or
,032 thick) and built like a venitian blind, so restricts the viewing
angle. Opaque off the design axis and clear on  axis.  We use it in the
dispay biz to control the viewing angle of flat panel displays. 
Lotsa Luck Eric
85 GTI with VR6 Power


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Fri Jan  8 02:24:58 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:24:58 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31800.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Clarence Wood wrote:

>                 Firing order
>           1  8  4  3  6  5  7  2
> Stroke
>   1.      P  C  I  E  P  C  I  E       (P=power,C=comp,I=intake,E=exht)
>   2.      E  P  C  I  E  P  C  I
>   3.      I  E  P  C  I  E  P  C
>   4.      C  I  E  P  C  I  E  P

Close but... Now figure out the new LS1 motor and Fords.  They are different.

Tom



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Fri Jan  8 02:30:36 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:30:36 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31801.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Greg Hermann wrote:

> If you wanna go with REALLY long tri-wye branches, (surprising how
> fantastically good this is for street, high torque, & 4x4 type apps.)

Why not just reallllllly long 4 to 1 ???         Tom



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Fri Jan  8 02:54:36 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:54:36 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31802.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Greg Hermann wrote:

> ... you could also dig up and use an old Mopar ball&trunnion
> >joint, which will also handle more angularity than the saginaw or spicer,
> >plus it is a plunge joint, so it handles the slipyoke problem, too.
>
> Is this the proper name for the things I have inside the (closed type)
> steering knuckles of one of my Dana 70F steerable drive axles, which I have
> always heard called (usually affectionately) "Chinese Puzzle Joints"??? Or
> are they something else again??
>
> Regards, Greg

For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft, some 1/4
plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize.



From TMead17327 at aol.com  Fri Jan  8 03:10:55 1999
From: TMead17327 at aol.com (TMead17327 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:10:55 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31803.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/7/99 12:36:28 PM Central Standard Time,
clarencewood at centuryinter.net writes:

I think it should look like this:

 		1	8	4	3	6	5	7	2
1	0	P		C		I		E	
	90		P		C		I		E
2	180	E		P		C		I	
	270		E		P		C		I
3	0	I		E		P		C	
	90		I		E		P		C
4	180	C		I		E		P	
	270		C		I		E		P

The first column counts the strokes, and the second column indicates degrees
from top dead center of the #1 piston.

Visualize the  #1 and #2 pistons, whose rods are mounted on the same crank
journal, firing.  #2 fires (the P at the bottom right corner of the chart).
The #1/#2 journal rotates (along with the rest of the crankshaft, hopefully!!)
90 degrees, and #1 is at TDC (the P at the top left of the chart).  After
another 90 degrees of crank rotation, the #7/#8 journal , which is 180 degrees
off from the #1/#2 journal, has brought #8 to TDC (P in the "8" column).  90
degrees later, #7 is at TDC, but at the beginning of the intake stroke (I in
the "7" column).  You'll get the idea if you picture the whole thing rotating.

I hope after all that, I got it right!?

Tommy
TMead17327 at aol.com

  

<<                 Firing order         
           1  8  4  3  6  5  7  2
 Stroke
   1.      P  C  I  E  P  C  I  E       (P=power,C=comp,I=intake,E=exht)
   2.      E  P  C  I  E  P  C  I
   3.      I  E  P  C  I  E  P  C
   4.      C  I  E  P  C  I  E  P
  >>


From amattei at mindspring.com  Fri Jan  8 03:15:21 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:15:21 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31804.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I *think* this ECM came from a '85 TPI Camaro, but was unable to confirm
that from either the archives or Ludis' info page.

It has the outside sticker number 16052541, and a ROM ID of 16042431.

If anyone can give me a "Yup, that's from a Camaro", it would help me
out a lot!

Thanks!

-Andrew


From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 03:22:24 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:22:24 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31805.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>WOW!  Thank you Greg!
>  Now, how do you accomplish the task of giving the exhaust gasses
>somewhere to go freely during the "blowdown" part of the exhaust stroke?

Well, err, the long enough tubes which are small enough in diameter, and
have ienough internal volume are what seem to do that. As long as the
pressure in the cylinder is about 1.8 (or more times) the pressure in the
port when the exhaust valve opens, the gas flow into the port will be at
Mach 1. There are plenty of folks who would argue with me, but I believe
that the reason that you need shorter, larger diameter tubes for higher rpm
ranges is cuz the speed of sound in the exhaust gas is still about the
same--same temp, remember--and you still need the same volume of tube to
exhaust into in less time.

What is the best header design to accomplish this for turbo charged
engines?  For NA engines?

I (again folks will argue) think that the tri-wye type design is best for
fours and eights, either turbo or NA. Three into one for sixes. Same type
of design for all. The difference is after the throat in the collector.

 Is there one technique that seems to be more effective than other
techniques?  Is it pipe width, or length or both?

I believe in matching the tube VOLUME to the cylinder displacement, as I
described. shorter fatter tubes for higher engine speeds cuz the gas does
not move down the tube any faster, even though the engine is turning
faster.

>  Also, what is "sonic energy"?  I know it refers to sound but I have
>never thought of sound as being part of exhaust energy.  How does sonic
>energy create a scavenging pulse?  Is it something you have to design into
>the header?  If so, what is the criteria for the design?  I guess what I
>am trying to ask, is, how do you look for this in a specific header
>design?  What tells you that the header design uses sonic energy
>effectively?  How does the tri-wyes header relate to the above?

All I really meant to try to get across was that if you get a higher
proportion of the exhaust gas moving inside the header tubes at Mach 1, you
will have more momentum energy to make productive use of . Four into one,
tri-wye and individual stacks all have their own proponents for different
applications. Most folks will say that individual stacks are plenty good
enough when an engine only is asked to work hard AT OR ABOVE its torque
peak rpm.  Witness dragsters. I think most folks would agree that tri-wyes
have the widest torque band. Some would claim that four into ones will make
better top end power than a tri-wye. My preference is for tri-wyes, with
360 degree separation between pulses into the primary pairs of tubes.

I probably developed my (admitted) prejudice cuz for several years I had an
Alfa which used the tri-wye header design, It was a daily driver which made
about 170 HP out of only 100 cubic inches . It made a mockery out of claims
that tri-wyes do not make any top end power, and although its cams were
such that there was not a lot of torque below about 4600 rpm,, it would
pull smoothly from about 1200 rpm if you floored it in fifth gear and asked
it to! This despite very large venturis in its Webers and 11.5:1
compression ratio.
>
Answering all of your questions in detail would likely take at least a
decade of thorough study, and a couple of books!!

You might try reading "Scientific Design of Exhaust & Intake Systems" by
Phillip H. Smith, ISBN # 0-8376-0309-9. Amazon.com has it. It presents a
good start on the subject.

But remember--although headers do offer many improvements to an engine's
performance, it is pretty costly to build them in a manner that will be
reliable for a long time. This is why most manufacturers do not use them,
and why really good headers cost mebbe ten (or more) times as much as speed
shop #@$% !!

If you ever get a chance to stop in Harlingen, Texas, take a close look of
some of the exhaust plumbing on the old war-birds in the Confederate Air
Force. They (most) all had recip engines which were carefully engineered,
by some damn good, talented engineers, to get every last ounce of power,
and as much fuel economy (for longer range and/or lighter tanks) reliably,
from as little weight as possible, with money no serious object. There are
some fascinating  lessons in exhaust plumbing techniques to be learned
there!!
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>
>>




From AL8001 at aol.com  Fri Jan  8 03:22:48 1999
From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:22:48 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31806.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 99-01-07 22:06:53 EST, twsharpe at mtco.com writes:

>For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft, some 1/4
>plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize.
>
>
>

Some Ford Bronco II's ( small size) use that style for both ends of the rear
drive shaft.

Harold


From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 03:45:47 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:45:47 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31807.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>>
>Most closed [ball] type 4X4 front axle steering joints were Rzeppas but
>dana/Spicer did make an elcheapo replacement that looked somewhat like a
>rubics cube. dont know what brands/years used it, but I will bet that jeep
>would be a likely candidate. But I dont think they ever used anything
>bigger than a 44. IIRC, the first 4X4 to use anything bigger than a 44 was
>mopar with some HD 3/4 ton front axles.

Not so on use of bigger than a 44F. Dodge/Fargo W-300's (1 Ton) used a 70F
from I believe '58 until early '70's. Likewise with IH 1300 4x4's (1 Ton,
so called) and 1500 4x4's (1-1/2 Ton, so called). The Cornbinders all used
a Spicer 1480 series cardan joint inside the closed knuckle, most of the
Dodges used the one I was talking about inside the same size knuckle (which
is WAY larger than the regular closed knuckle on a Jeep or whatever else),
and it was a factory original. Never came across a Rzeppa joint in one of
the big knuckles. Also, never came across a Rzeppa in any of the little
ones much after about '55. After that they used (mostly, at least) 1310
series cardan joints.

First use of a 60 F I know of was in Dodge 3/4 Ton "Sno-Fiters" in the
early '70's, and same vintage Ford 3/4 Ton CREW cabs--the latter with the
same large size , closed knuckles. Those same big knuckles went on 44F;s in
Ford HD F-250's and IH 1200 (3/4 Ton) CREW cabs in the early '70's.

"So-called" used on the IH weight ratings cuz their idea of tons was sorta
like Hemi horsepower--quite a bit larger than anybody else's! Never seen a
1300 with less than 10K GVW rating on the factory tag, never seen a 1500
lighter than 14K , same place.

Regards, Greg




From Galadar at worldnet.att.net  Fri Jan  8 03:49:56 1999
From: Galadar at worldnet.att.net (Jon Fedock)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:49:56 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31808.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This thread greatly interests me because (to me) there is no better sound
than a NASCAR car at Talledega/Daytona/etc. where 180 degree headers are
used. I thought I almost understood what the term "180 degree headers"
meant, but evidently I am missing something. Questions posted below in
quoted posts:

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: Turbo header design


>A reasonably close approximation to true 180 deg. headers can be made with
>the old tri-Y approach.  As Aaron wrote, true 180 would require merging
1-6,
>8-5, 4-7, 3-2 which is difficult to make.  Merging 1-5, 3-7, 4-6, 2-8
>enables cylinder pairs to share an exhaust pipe without interfering and is
>relatively easy to build.  This is common in high output European and
>Japanese V-8 engines.

Do they have 4 exhausts exit the car? Or are there collectors further
downstream to make it duals or a single?

> Ferrari, on the other hand, uses a flat crank to make
>a true 180 header easy.  Formula 1 and CART V-8 engines also use flat
>cranks.


This I understand (WoooHooo!).

>Flat crank V-8's vibrate like 2 4cyl engines.  A 90 degree crank V-8 has
>complete primary and secondary balance with only weights on the crank.


    Care to elaborate on this a little? Are we talking about crank vibration
(hamonic balancer/flywheel) or something else over my head? Also, a Chevy
V-8 fires every 90 degrees of crank rotation. How does a flat crank V-8
fire? Every 180 degrees would make sense, but then it would take 4 turns of
the crank to hit all 8?! I am so confused......

>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>
Thanks for any input.
Jon Fedock




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 03:52:52 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:52:52 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31809.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Greg Hermann wrote:
>
>> If you wanna go with REALLY long tri-wye branches, (surprising how
>> fantastically good this is for street, high torque, & 4x4 type apps.)
>
>Why not just reallllllly long 4 to 1 ???         Tom

I'm prejudiced.

Greg




From ECMnut at aol.com  Fri Jan  8 03:59:56 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:59:56 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31810.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/7/99 10:18:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
amattei at mindspring.com writes:

> 
>  If anyone can give me a "Yup, that's from a Camaro", it would help me
>  out a lot!
Nope,
I think it is from something else.
The books are indexed by the car, not ECM.
Will keep looking


From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 04:04:29 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:04:29 -0500
Subject: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale!
Message-ID: <mailman.31811.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> I have an aluminum 215 cubic inch (3525 cubic centimeters) V8
> from an oldsmobile/buick/triumph/TRV/land rover/etc.
> 
<snip>
> Includes transmission!  This is a weird item: automatic trans
> with SIX positions/notches on the shifter arm (PRND321 ??) plus
> a kickdown lever. NO TORQUE CONVERTER OR CLUTCH; it just has a
> disc that looks like a clutch disc, but has boltholes instead of
> a friction material.  It bolts onto the flywheel (included with
> the engine) and drives the transmission directly.  This is all
> that i know about the transmission.
> 

This could be the hydramatic trans that first saw service in 55 Chevy
pickup and Olds(called the Jetaway in Olds).  It's got a "taurus
coupling" where the converter should be.  Is it aluminum or cast
iron?  The ones I've seen are cast, and weigh as much as a smallblock
Chebby.  Shift positions on the pickups were, in order, R N 1-4 1-3
1-2.  Don't know the Olds, but can get copies of original service
literature for both, if needed.

> This motor would make a great small car swap, as the entire setup
> will weigh less than an iron 4 cylinder by far and is much meaner.
> This motor is smaller than a chevy V8 by far enough that
> mounting it in a volvo or something would be a piece of cake.
> 

Is bellhousing pattern like triditional Buick/Olds/Pontiac?  What's
the engine originally from?
Shannen

> My price is $500 for everything, not including shipping.
> I'm in austin, texas..
> 
> -jake
> chickens at mail.utexas.edu



From ECMnut at aol.com  Fri Jan  8 04:17:39 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:17:39 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31812.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/7/99 10:18:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
amattei at mindspring.com writes:

> I *think* this ECM came from a '85 TPI Camaro, but was unable to confirm
>  that from either the archives or Ludis' info page.
>  
>  It has the outside sticker number 16052541, and a ROM ID of 16042431.

I can't find either number, but the "160" boxes tend to be 
"Electronic Spark Control Units", not ECMs tha control fuel
injection.  161 & 122 are popular ECM prefixes
HTH
Mike V


From Galadar at worldnet.att.net  Fri Jan  8 04:20:16 1999
From: Galadar at worldnet.att.net (Jon Fedock)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:20:16 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31813.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This clears up alot of questions. THANKS
Jon Fedock

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Turbo header design


>
>
>FOR THIS PARTICULAR V-8> (IT HAS A 90 degree crank)
>>                Firing order
>>          1  8  4  3  6  5  7  2
>
>With this firing order, take every other cylinder in the firing order if
>you want  180 degree (crank rotation) spaced pulses into a pair of 4 into 1
>collectors:
>
>1, 4, 6, & 7 go into one collector (two end cylinders from one bank, and
>the two center cylinders from the other bank.
>
>8, 3, 5, & 2 go into the other collector. (the two end cylinders on the
>other side, and the two middles from the first side.
>
>If you want PROPERLY done tri-wyes, go 1/2 way around the firing order, so
>that the pulses in the pairs of tubes which combine at the first wye are
>spaced evenly, 360 (crank) degrees apart:
>
>1 & 6; 8 &5; 4 & 7; 3 & 2. As you can see, each pair takes one tube from
>each bank of the motor.
>
>Then, at the second wye, pair 1-6 with 4-7 and pair 8-5 with 3-2 so as to
>get evenly spaced pulses at the second wye in each header.
>
>If you wanna go with REALLY long tri-wye branches, (surprising how
>fantastically good this is for street, high torque, & 4x4 type apps.) start
>out with a regular set of 4 into one headers (of the smallest tube size you
>can find), cut them off a bit before the collectors, and do the snaking
>back and forth under the bell housing/tranny to get the correct first wye
>pairings. The second branches want to be the same length as the first ones,
>but there are no crossovers if you plan ahead. After the four second
>branches combine into two (tertiary) pipes, you want a length of pipe of
>length equal to all the first and second branches. At the end of that pipe,
>you need a gap (no diameter change of offset in the pipe) in the pipe about
>3/4 inch long. Put an empty plenum chamber around that gap. The volume of
>the plenum needs to be maybe double the internal volume of the last
>(single) length of pipe feeding it. Just run a full size tail pipe and low
>restriction muffler behind the plenum (Not much vehicle length left after
>this, anyway!)
>The headers will effectively see the plenum as an open ended (to
>atmosphere) pipe. DO NOT omit the plenum, it is worth quite a bit of HP and
>response!
>For street stuff, usually, primary tubes 1 trade size SMALLER than the size
>which can be swedged square to fit into a flange and match the port
>properly work out to be the correct size. (If a 1-7/8" tube can be squared
>at one end and fitted into a flange so that the inside of that tube matches
>the port shape, then run the primary tubes with 1-3/4 " tubing.) You want
>the internal AREA of your primary tubes to be about equal to the
>cros-sectional AREA of the exhaust port. The above is what usually works
>out right. (Especially if the engine designer did his homework!) The extra
>work involved in getting down to the smaller tube size is why most off the
>shelf headers use too big a tube size!  Figure the length of the primary
>tubes so that each of their internal volumes is about 140% of the
>displacement of an individual cylinder. (For instance, for a 350 cid V-8,
>using 1-3/4" tubes (which are about 1-5/8" inside diameter in 16 gauge
>tube, this would mean you want (at least) 24 inch long primary tubes.) (And
>if you are using lighter than 16 gauge tubing, don't bother!)
>If the primaries are 1-3/4", then 2" is usually about right for the
>secondaries, and 2-1/4" for the next ones. (A quarter inch increase in tube
>size at each successive wye is usually about right.
>
>1-3/4" diameter primary tube size was only an example. It is prolly BIG for
>a street 350, 1-5/8" or 1-1/2" is more likely to be right (but with more
>tube length so as to get to the same internal tube volume!)
>
>If you build a set of tri-wyes this way, they will sound and run like
>nothing else! The throttle response will be astounding! But it is a ROYAL
>pain in the #@$% to do it!
>
>All my experience says that the biggest gain from headers is from giving as
>much of the exhaust gas as possible somewhere to go freely during the
>"blowdown" part of the exhaust stroke--before the piston starts back up
>significantly. Yes, it's nice to have a low pressure pulse in the exhaust
>port at overlap, and that pulse helps to scavenge clearance gasses if you
>have it there at the right time, but the longer you can keep the blowdown
>stage flow sonic, the less work the engine will have to waste pumping
>exhaust gas out of its cylinders, and the more sonic energy there will be
>available for creation of a scavenging pulse!
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan  8 04:22:27 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:22:27 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31814.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew K. Mattei <amattei at mindspring.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 10:28 PM
Subject: What's this ECM?

While by no means absolute I can't find either number
A 85 v-8 F Body should have a 1226870 I think
Bruce


>I *think* this ECM came from a '85 TPI Camaro, but was unable to confirm
>that from either the archives or Ludis' info page.
>
>It has the outside sticker number 16052541, and a ROM ID of 16042431.
>
>If anyone can give me a "Yup, that's from a Camaro", it would help me
>out a lot!
>
>Thanks!
>
>-Andrew
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan  8 04:27:12 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:27:12 -0500
Subject: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale!
Message-ID: <mailman.31815.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale!

Ya take off for months atta time, and then try to sneak in HA, gotcha
Bruce


>diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
>> 
>> I have an aluminum 215 cubic inch (3525 cubic centimeters) V8
>> from an oldsmobile/buick/triumph/TRV/land rover/etc.
>> 
><snip>
>> Includes transmission!  This is a weird item: automatic trans
>> with SIX positions/notches on the shifter arm (PRND321 ??) plus
>> a kickdown lever. NO TORQUE CONVERTER OR CLUTCH; it just has a
>> disc that looks like a clutch disc, but has boltholes instead of
>> a friction material.  It bolts onto the flywheel (included with
>> the engine) and drives the transmission directly.  This is all
>> that i know about the transmission.
>> 
>
>This could be the hydramatic trans that first saw service in 55 Chevy
>pickup and Olds(called the Jetaway in Olds).  It's got a "taurus
>coupling" where the converter should be.  Is it aluminum or cast
>iron?  The ones I've seen are cast, and weigh as much as a smallblock
>Chebby.  Shift positions on the pickups were, in order, R N 1-4 1-3
>1-2.  Don't know the Olds, but can get copies of original service
>literature for both, if needed.
>
>> This motor would make a great small car swap, as the entire setup
>> will weigh less than an iron 4 cylinder by far and is much meaner.
>> This motor is smaller than a chevy V8 by far enough that
>> mounting it in a volvo or something would be a piece of cake.
>> 
>
>Is bellhousing pattern like triditional Buick/Olds/Pontiac?  What's
>the engine originally from?
>Shannen
>
>> My price is $500 for everything, not including shipping.
>> I'm in austin, texas..
>> 
>> -jake
>> chickens at mail.utexas.edu
>



From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 04:31:26 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:31:26 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31816.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> I *think* this ECM came from a '85 TPI Camaro, but was unable to confirm
> that from either the archives or Ludis' info page.
> 
> It has the outside sticker number 16052541, and a ROM ID of 16042431.
> 
> If anyone can give me a "Yup, that's from a Camaro", it would help me
> out a lot!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Andrew
Got four letters+numbers from prom?  Would help.
Shannen



From clive at problem.tantech.com  Fri Jan  8 04:39:18 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:39:18 -0500
Subject: FI system opinion?
Message-ID: <mailman.31817.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> What we are looking for is a solution to a 1.3/1.6ltr TBI injection system,
> and or 1.3 Twincam MPI injection system. Something that can be preprogrammed
> and setup as a kit. I have found this solution to the Twincam mpi and that
> seems to work. The deal is that WE HAVE to go distributorless because of the
> firewall (cam/disty run into the firewall and have to pound it out) This
> application is for Suzuki Samurais/Sidekicks.
> 
> Aaron


I think ig you look at the stock ECM from a Kick that it is a GM part
cehck out out before you do anything else
they have been pretty well dissected and the stock ECM works well
on the 1600

a DIS system from a Quad4 may work with an ECM change using stock wiring
if you luck out

Clive 



From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 04:40:04 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:40:04 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31818.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

16042431 shows as a resistor network for the 85 tpi 5.0l, but only
part no I have for ecm is 1226870.  Not final by any means.  If all
else fails, call a GM dealer give him your # (should be preceeded by
the words "service number").  Ask him if it changes to the 6870. 
Should be a simple matter.

Shannen

Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> I *think* this ECM came from a '85 TPI Camaro, but was unable to confirm
> that from either the archives or Ludis' info page.
> 
> It has the outside sticker number 16052541, and a ROM ID of 16042431.
> 
> If anyone can give me a "Yup, that's from a Camaro", it would help me
> out a lot!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Andrew



From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 04:45:07 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:45:07 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31819.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>In a message dated 99-01-07 22:06:53 EST, twsharpe at mtco.com writes:
>
>>For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft, some 1/4
>>plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Some Ford Bronco II's ( small size) use that style for both ends of the rear
>drive shaft.
>
>Harold

No, no , NO--

If I'm a gonna do THAT much work, use one of the BIG Porsche half shaft CV
Joints. Summers Brothers sells 'em.

Greg




From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 04:48:46 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:48:46 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31820.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I apologise to the list and the writer for this, but I'm not recieving
any source info through my new isp, and without a siggy I can't tell
who  is sending what.  Hopefully the problem will be solved soon.

That said, I've heard stories about 350's swapped into Corvairs, and
rear mounted.  I thought the original powerplant was CCW rotation? 
Anyone?

Shannen


diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 1/6/99 8:33:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > gderian at cybergate.net writes:
> > >
> > > > Corvairs also had that setup, after all, they shared chassis with the 61-63
> > > >  Tempest.  There are lots more Corvair parts around since they were in
> > > >  production thru '69.
> >
> > Corvairs did not have this setup
> > they we rear engine mid tranmission/drive case like VW and Porsche
> >
> > Clive
> >
> > >
> > > Gary,
> > > what type of powertrain did the tempest use?
> > > I though the Tempests were front engine..
> > > Thanks,
> > > Mike V
> The corvair transaxle was VERY similar to the tempest unit, turned end
> for end and connected by a flexible shaft. I believe many parts were
> interchangeable.



From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 05:06:46 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:06:46 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31821.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> > ... you could also dig up and use an old Mopar ball&trunnion
> > >joint, which will also handle more angularity than the saginaw or spicer,
> > >plus it is a plunge joint, so it handles the slipyoke problem, too.
> >
> > Is this the proper name for the things I have inside the (closed type)
> > steering knuckles of one of my Dana 70F steerable drive axles, which I have
> > always heard called (usually affectionately) "Chinese Puzzle Joints"??? Or
> > are they something else again??
> >
> > Regards, Greg
> 
> For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft, some 1/4
> plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize.
The real work-a-holics use a hacksaw.  And don't tell me I can't cut a
straight line with a hacksaw.
Shannen



From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 05:16:37 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:16:37 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31822.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>    Care to elaborate on this a little? Are we talking about crank vibration
>(hamonic balancer/flywheel) or something else over my head? Also, a Chevy
>V-8 fires every 90 degrees of crank rotation. How does a flat crank V-8
>fire? Every 180 degrees would make sense, but then it would take 4 turns of
>the crank to hit all 8?! I am so confused......

Secondary vibration, due to the fact that piston accelerations are
different at the top and bottom of the stroke due to con rod angularity. A
four cylinder has an up and down shafing force at twice crank speed (which
is sometimes countered fairly well with two "balance shafts" counter
rotating at twice crank speed.) A flat crank V-8 is like two fours.  Too
late at night to try to describe the shaking which results. A 90 degree
crank V-8 is not in perfect primary and secondary balance, as Gary claimed,
but it is close. An in line 6 has inherently PERFECT primary and secondary
balance. Only reason for crank sounterweights inna 6 is to reduce bending
stress in the crank and block.

Tertiary balance is another matter--it has to do with connecting rod mass
distribution, and is generally accepted as being not too significant.
Efforts to obtain/improve it explain the long tangs sometimes seen
projecting above the small end on a connecting rod, and also the rather
large pads often seen on the bottom of the big and cap of rods.

Why the Super speedway headers sound so neat (as also did Ford Mark IV's
and Ford's four -cam Indy V-8's) is cause the individual exhaust pulses
into each of their two collectors are EVENLY SPACED (180 crank degrees
apart) , from whence the name. You cannot get that on a V-8 with a 90
degree crank without crossing tubes from side to side (bank to bank) to the
collectors. You do get it with a four into one header on each bank (without
crossovers) on a V-8 with a flat crank.

Regards, Greg




From georg at redxch.wcape.gov.za  Fri Jan  8 05:38:03 1999
From: georg at redxch.wcape.gov.za (Georg Lerm)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:38:03 -0500
Subject: Duty Cycle Monitor Group Buy
Message-ID: <mailman.31823.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Just to set the record straight. There seems a bit of confusion 
about. If not , I apologize in advance.

The statement made by Steven Ciciora is not correct. The list seems 
to think that the design I have posted uses a PIC. This is not true.
The microcontroller device I have used is an Atmel AT89C2051 micro
It uses the 8051-Architecture, for those are familiar with it.
Take a look at http://www.atmel.com/atmel/acrobat/doc0368.pdf
This give you an idea what the chip is all about.

Later...
Georg



I've believed that there has been a need for a duty cycle monitor for
some time, and have been looking for some time to build one, but with no
luck.  It seems like one or two people out there have plans.  I would be
willing to volunteer to put together a kit (design PCB, order parts,
etc) for such a beast, if someone had some working source code.  I can
program PICs, too.  What _I_ would like to see on a display is on time
(in ms), off time, frequency (and/or RPM), and duty cycle (in %).  All
on an LCD Display.  

If anyone has some PIC source code, please let me know.




From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 05:40:19 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:40:19 -0500
Subject: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31824.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> <snipperoo>
> 
> >Clarence,
> >  This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing order,
> >as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together.  Commonly done in NA
> >headers and OEM manifolds too.  However, true 180 degree headers on a V8
> >typically take up a lot of space.
> >   The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine, which is
> >1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.  Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are):
> >
> >     1     2        you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is #6, #8's
> >     3     4        is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2.
> >     5     6
> >     7     8
> 
> #1 and #6 are 180 degrees apart on the distributor, not the crank. #1 and #4
> are 180 degrees apart on the crank. Aren't they? What cylinders are grouped
> together with NASCAR 180 degree headers?
> 
> Jon
> 
> <snip>
Suppose it would make things easier to include "cam" or "crank". #6
is  180 cam degrees from #1.  Means that #8 reaches TDC at 630 crank
degrees.

Anyone willing to answer some "flat" crank questions off list?
Shannen



From wsherwin at idirect.com  Fri Jan  8 05:44:14 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:44:14 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31825.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>
>I disagree, Walt-- duty cycle is time on per event spacing, not time on per
>max time allowed by the program. It is only semantics, but time on per
>event spacing is what any normal meter will read, plus it is the definition
>of duty cycle which will relate directly to fuel used per unit time and
>thus directly to horsepower.
>
>Greg
>
>
I guess it all boils down to "For What Purpose" a person wants to know the
duty cycle of the injector.     If it is for the purpose of estimating fuel
per unit time, or horsepower, then a conventional duty meter will work fine.
If it is for the purpose of examining the remaining injector "headroom" of
your particular control system (ie: for injector sizing and tailbiting
issues), then you would need to look at things as previously outlined.
Yes/No?

Walt.



From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Fri Jan  8 05:47:41 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:47:41 -0500
Subject: ECM and Chip help
Message-ID: <mailman.31826.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I know where their is a complete vehicle ( as of 4 months ago), I can pass along info if requested.

----------
From: 	David A. Cooley[SMTP:n5xmt at bellsouth.net]
Sent: 	January 7, 1999 6:17 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	ECM and Chip help

Hello all,
a friend is Looking to find a chip or ECM...
ECM part number is: 1226025
The chip broadcast code is APM or CDC.
These were used in the 1983 Carbureted Turbo V6 buick Regals.
Thanks,
Dave


===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


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From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Fri Jan  8 05:47:45 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:47:45 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31827.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Got a 3M P/N for the stuff?
/Marc

----------
From: 	Eric Schumacher[SMTP:e.schumacher at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: 	January 6, 1999 11:08 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: Photo Radar

3M makes some stuff they call Louver Film. It comes in a sheet (.062 or
,032 thick) and built like a venitian blind, so restricts the viewing
angle. Opaque off the design axis and clear on  axis.  We use it in the
dispay biz to control the viewing angle of flat panel displays. 
Lotsa Luck Eric
85 GTI with VR6 Power


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From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Fri Jan  8 05:47:56 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:47:56 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31828.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

install a reverse rotation cam, distributor gears, starter, water pump and 
viola. reverse rotation engine are used frequently in dual engine marine 
applications.

----------
From: 	Shannen Durphey[SMTP:shannen at grolen.com]
Sent: 	January 7, 1999 9:46 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: Water Injection Thread

I apologise to the list and the writer for this, but I'm not recieving
any source info through my new isp, and without a siggy I can't tell
who  is sending what.  Hopefully the problem will be solved soon.

That said, I've heard stories about 350's swapped into Corvairs, and
rear mounted.  I thought the original powerplant was CCW rotation?
Anyone?

Shannen


diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
>
> Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 1/6/99 8:33:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > gderian at cybergate.net writes:
> > >
> > > > Corvairs also had that setup, after all, they shared chassis with 
the 61-63
> > > >  Tempest.  There are lots more Corvair parts around since they were 
in
> > > >  production thru '69.
> >
> > Corvairs did not have this setup
> > they we rear engine mid tranmission/drive case like VW and Porsche
> >
> > Clive
> >
> > >
> > > Gary,
> > > what type of powertrain did the tempest use?
> > > I though the Tempests were front engine..
> > > Thanks,
> > > Mike V
> The corvair transaxle was VERY similar to the tempest unit, turned end
> for end and connected by a flexible shaft. I believe many parts were
> interchangeable.




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end



From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 06:02:56 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:02:56 -0500
Subject: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale!
Message-ID: <mailman.31829.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 11:25 PM
> Subject: Re: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale!
> 
Oh, man.  Shoulda been wearin' a mask when I wrote.
Shannen
> Ya take off for months atta time, and then try to sneak in HA, gotcha
> Bruce
> 
> >diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> >>
> >> I have an aluminum 215 cubic inch (3525 cubic centimeters) V8
> >> from an oldsmobile/buick/triumph/TRV/land rover/etc.
> >>
> ><snip>
> >> Includes transmission!  This is a weird item: automatic trans
> >> with SIX positions/notches on the shifter arm (PRND321 ??) plus
> >> a kickdown lever. NO TORQUE CONVERTER OR CLUTCH; it just has a
> >> disc that looks like a clutch disc, but has boltholes instead of
> >> a friction material.  It bolts onto the flywheel (included with
> >> the engine) and drives the transmission directly.  This is all
> >> that i know about the transmission.
> >>
> >
> >This could be the hydramatic trans that first saw service in 55 Chevy
> >pickup and Olds(called the Jetaway in Olds).  It's got a "taurus
> >coupling" where the converter should be.  Is it aluminum or cast
> >iron?  The ones I've seen are cast, and weigh as much as a smallblock
> >Chebby.  Shift positions on the pickups were, in order, R N 1-4 1-3
> >1-2.  Don't know the Olds, but can get copies of original service
> >literature for both, if needed.
> >
> >> This motor would make a great small car swap, as the entire setup
> >> will weigh less than an iron 4 cylinder by far and is much meaner.
> >> This motor is smaller than a chevy V8 by far enough that
> >> mounting it in a volvo or something would be a piece of cake.
> >>
> >
> >Is bellhousing pattern like triditional Buick/Olds/Pontiac?  What's
> >the engine originally from?
> >Shannen
> >
> >> My price is $500 for everything, not including shipping.
> >> I'm in austin, texas..
> >>
> >> -jake
> >> chickens at mail.utexas.edu
> >



From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Fri Jan  8 06:17:41 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:17:41 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31830.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> > For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft, some 1/4
> > plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize.
> The real work-a-holics use a hacksaw.  And don't tell me I can't cut a
> straight line with a hacksaw.
> Shannen

Okay, you can't cut a straight line with a hacksaw.  I tried
this for my mid-engined car - needed a CV on each end,
mating 87 corvette IRS hubs to an Audi FWD transmission,
slopped in the back of the vehicle.  The first attempt was
what you suggested - cutting both the GM and the Audi axles,
inserting a 1/4" circular plate, and welding.  After two
attempts, I realized I couldn't weld them perfectly straight
using the wooden jig I made, so I asked a friend to
fabricate them from scratch.  Less balancing issues, one
piece, no worries about welds giving out (I don't weld as
good as most), etc.

A competent machine shop can spline both sides.


-- 

Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

http://www.xephic.dynip.com
1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
2000 Buick GTP (V6 twin turbo)


From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 06:24:41 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:24:41 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31831.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
>   The tri-Y approach sounds more like the article that I read.  In the article, there were collectors for each bank.  Damn!  I can't find the article!  It is here, under a pile of other treasures, somewhere.  Anyway, they talked about matching the cylinders on each bank to scavenge, put in short baffles that led into a cone shaped collector that narrowed into the exhaust pipe.
>   Now, I hate to share my ignorance with you all, but I have ran into a problem understanding what is probably the most basic operation of a V8 engine.  Here is what I did to determine what cylinders should be matched:
> 
>                 Firing order
>           1  8  4  3  6  5  7  2
> Stroke
>   1.      P  C  I  E  P  C  I  E       (P=power,C=comp,I=intake,E=exht)
>   2.      E  P  C  I  E  P  C  I
>   3.      I  E  P  C  I  E  P  C
>   4.      C  I  E  P  C  I  E  P
> 
>   Why is cylinder #6 at a power stroke while cylinder #1 is also at a power stroke?  I am trying to find out where each of the cylinders are, in their four stroke cycle, when cylinder #1 is at its Power stroke.  What am I doing wrong??  Where is cylinder #6, in its stroke cycle, when cylinder #1 is on the power stroke?
> 
Here.  There's been a couple of answers, this one looks easier to me.
; )

                  Firing order 
                1  8  4  3  6  5  7  2
Cam degrees  
   0/360        C     I     E     P
                   C     I     E     P
      90        P     C     I     E
                   P     C     I     I
     180        E     P     C     I
                   E     P     C     C
     270        I     E     P     C
                   I     E     P      E

Remember, for every 45 degrees of Cam revolution, there is a power
stroke.
Shannen



From robert_sgi at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  8 06:41:01 1999
From: robert_sgi at yahoo.com (Robert)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:41:01 -0500
Subject: FI system opinion?
Message-ID: <mailman.31832.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi, 

This issue of TBI or MPI injection and digital ignition for a 1.3 ltr
engine (but an old version of Renault's 1397 ccm) is keeping me busy
for a while.

I was digging and found out that the products of a company called
"Electromotive Inc." looks like the proper solution.

Here's the Web site:
http://www.electromotive-inc.com/home.htm

And look for TEC-2 (combined FI and distributorless digital ignition)
or HPV-3B (only the ignition, FI feature disabled).
Quite well documented. In order to easily search the site, go to "Site
Map".

Good luck.
Robert


---Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020
<clive at problem.tantech.com> wrote:
>
> > 
> > What we are looking for is a solution to a 1.3/1.6ltr TBI
injection system,
> > and or 1.3 Twincam MPI injection system. Something that can be
preprogrammed
> > and setup as a kit. I have found this solution to the Twincam mpi
and that
> > seems to work. The deal is that WE HAVE to go distributorless
because of the
> > firewall (cam/disty run into the firewall and have to pound it
out) This
> > application is for Suzuki Samurais/Sidekicks.
> > 
> > Aaron
> 
> 
> I think ig you look at the stock ECM from a Kick that it is a GM part
> cehck out out before you do anything else
> they have been pretty well dissected and the stock ECM works well
> on the 1600
> 
> a DIS system from a Quad4 may work with an ECM change using stock
wiring
> if you luck out
> 
> Clive 
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com  Fri Jan  8 06:46:20 1999
From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:46:20 -0500
Subject: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale!
Message-ID: <mailman.31833.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

what is it from ? I am very interested. I live up in seattle and this would
make a nice change for my 77 mgb


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jake Sternberg [SMTP:chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 07, 1999 6:08 PM
> To:	diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	aluminum block 215" V8 for sale!
> 
> 
> I have an aluminum 215 cubic inch (3525 cubic centimeters) V8
> from an oldsmobile/buick/triumph/TRV/land rover/etc.
> 
> This is the aluminum V8 everyone has been talking about. It's
> so light you can pick up the block with one hand, and both
> heads with the other.  The intake manifold is a one-finger
> item.
> 
> Comes disassembled with pistons, rods, nuts, bolts, oil pump,
> pickup screen, oil pan, heads, valve covers, valves, nuts,
> bolts, front cover, rear cover, crank, camshaft, etc..
> exhaust manifolds, intake manifold, flywheel, generator,
> EVERYTHING. (no starter but i think a plain buick V6 will fit)
> 
> Includes transmission!  This is a weird item: automatic trans
> with SIX positions/notches on the shifter arm (PRND321 ??) plus
> a kickdown lever. NO TORQUE CONVERTER OR CLUTCH; it just has a
> disc that looks like a clutch disc, but has boltholes instead of
> a friction material.  It bolts onto the flywheel (included with
> the engine) and drives the transmission directly.  This is all
> that i know about the transmission.
> 
> This motor would make a great small car swap, as the entire setup
> will weigh less than an iron 4 cylinder by far and is much meaner.
> This motor is smaller than a chevy V8 by far enough that
> mounting it in a volvo or something would be a piece of cake.
> 
> My price is $500 for everything, not including shipping.
> I'm in austin, texas..
> 
> -jake
> chickens at mail.utexas.edu
> 


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Fri Jan  8 06:50:41 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:50:41 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31834.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> I apologise to the list and the writer for this, but I'm not recieving
> any source info through my new isp, and without a siggy I can't tell
> who  is sending what.  Hopefully the problem will be solved soon.
> 
> That said, I've heard stories about 350's swapped into Corvairs, and
> rear mounted.  I thought the original powerplant was CCW rotation?
> Anyone?
> 
> Shannen

The infamous "Corveight" = used the Corvette 327, from what I remember.
Saw one at one of the Ontario shows this summer - think it was Waterdown
- possibly Barrie. About the only 'vair that could beat Don Yenko's 240
stinger.


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Fri Jan  8 06:56:00 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:56:00 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31835.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> >
> >    Care to elaborate on this a little? Are we talking about crank vibration
> >(hamonic balancer/flywheel) or something else over my head? Also, a Chevy
> >V-8 fires every 90 degrees of crank rotation. How does a flat crank V-8
> >fire? Every 180 degrees would make sense, but then it would take 4 turns of
> >the crank to hit all 8?! I am so confused......
> 
> Secondary vibration, due to the fact that piston accelerations are
> different at the top and bottom of the stroke due to con rod angularity. A
> four cylinder has an up and down shafing force at twice crank speed (which
> is sometimes countered fairly well with two "balance shafts" counter
> rotating at twice crank speed.) A flat crank V-8 is like two fours.  Too
> late at night to try to describe the shaking which results. 

The well known "big four buzz" common to modified Ford "B"s, Vauxhaul
2300s, and ford 2300s, as well as the Vegas (ouch!!) My '28 Chevy
National and Vauxhaul HC 2300 twin-carb both buzzed pretty good. Hard to
immagine two of them out of phase!!


From wsherwin at idirect.com  Fri Jan  8 06:59:09 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 01:59:09 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31836.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>




>From Waterloo Ontario - yes it would read as you state - but no problem.
>What we are trying to do is make sure the injector is not "locked on" or
>run in fire-hose mode. The "experts" say 80% is maximum, and in the
>scenario you propose, anything approaching 80% would be impossible.




Sounds to me like your reason for wanting to monitor "Duty Cycle" is to
primarily assess the remaining control headroom of your system and its
injectors?

It is true that you should size your injectors so as to obtain an 80%
maximum control duty cycle (you can run over 80%, but you have to know your
specific electromechanical dynamic injector constraints).

But, what do you want 80% of?..................In the earlier example, you
would want 80% of the time available for actual injection, or 80% of the
"Ultimate" time.

Once you use up 100% of the ultimate time, you will be out of control and
out of additional injection time,  even though your dash mounted duty
"meter"  would have you believe that you are at a super conservative 33%
duty cycle!

"Duty Meters" are great for certain tasks, I just think that they cannot be
universally applied to all injection control systems without an
understanding of what is to be measured and what is actually being measured.



Walt.



From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Fri Jan  8 07:00:03 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 02:00:03 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31837.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi Shannen and all

What happened with the 350 swap into the corvair as well as
the "kelmark" is they turned the transaxle upside down backwards
and the engine kept you company in the back seat
Not like the Porche V8 swaps UGG

:peter




From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Fri Jan  8 07:01:26 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 02:01:26 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31838.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Marc Piccioni wrote:
> 
> install a reverse rotation cam, distributor gears, starter, water pump and
> viola. reverse rotation engine are used frequently in dual engine marine
> applications.
> 
Not as common as they used to be - many are now geared for reverse
rotation. I believe the same trick was used on the corveight - flip the
ring and pinion in the transaxle to reverse the rotation - like on a
VW/porche


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Fri Jan  8 07:07:16 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 02:07:16 -0500
Subject: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale!
Message-ID: <mailman.31839.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote:
> 
> what is it from ? I am very interested. I live up in seattle and this would
> make a nice change for my 77 mgb

Was actually available from the factory with that engine - the MGBV8 and
MGBGTV8. A MUCH better combination than the horrendous MGC with the
Austin Princess / Austin Lorry engine (BIG six)
> >


From jqadir at direct.ca  Fri Jan  8 07:09:24 1999
From: jqadir at direct.ca (jq)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 02:09:24 -0500
Subject: Prom for 90 dodge trunks
Message-ID: <mailman.31840.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

r there any performance prom for a 
dodge half size truck?

not those tuner box that plug in on top of the ecm!!


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Fri Jan  8 07:10:50 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 02:10:50 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31841.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Bingo Kinda off

calpak ecm 16042431 stamped lists for 85-86 Fbody code F engine, MD8
trans..

Not sure what the heck this is but is cheep enough to order

:peter




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Fri Jan  8 07:17:43 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 02:17:43 -0500
Subject: Prom for 90 dodge trunks
Message-ID: <mailman.31842.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

There are no eproms available for Dodge vehicles... you have to buy a
complete computer assy with the perf cals in it. (You can get them from the
dodge dealer... Mopar Performance is the only company I know of that makes
them...)
Dodge (all chrysler) PCM's are potted and sealed... you'd destroy it trying
to get the epoxy off the circuit board to get at the prom to unsolder it.

Later,
Dave


At 11:07 PM 1/7/99 -0800, you wrote:
>r there any performance prom for a 
>dodge half size truck?
>
>not those tuner box that plug in on top of the ecm!!

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From aris at exmail.panafon.gr  Fri Jan  8 07:33:25 1999
From: aris at exmail.panafon.gr (HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 02:33:25 -0500
Subject: Digital contact breaker and timing advance eliminator
Message-ID: <mailman.31843.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi there,

could some body help. A first step to efi is surely a good intelligent
ignition system. Especially with regard to old engines in classic cars,
where the above can be applied expertly to preserve the ?original?
engine bay looks. The benefits to be had from such an approach are
important, and definitely very considerable in the case of highly tuned
old engines.

So how about a digital ignition system for my Fiat Dino 1971 2.4 litre
V6 engine (a Ferrari engine) currently on its original antiquated
Magnetti Marelli twin points (!) distributor (to cope with the 8000 odd
RPMs this engine is capable of), complete with original (read, horrible)
centrifugal advance mechanism.

The requirements are relatively simple:
1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick up
arranged to fire every 60 degrees.
2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism.
3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard unit
implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16
sites.
4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
degrees of detonation induced retard.
5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
(already fitted in my car).

Your replies will be highly appreciated

Regards,

Aris


From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com  Fri Jan  8 08:05:34 1999
From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 03:05:34 -0500
Subject: Duty Cycle Meter / A/F Ratio Meter
Message-ID: <mailman.31844.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Haven't been followignthis thread too closely, so I'm not sure if
you've discussed commercially available units yet.  I found this in the
Racer Wholesale catalog ('97, p. 87), looking for the Air/Fuel Meter
mentioned with the snake oil / polish discussion.

NEW INJECTOR AIR/FUEL RATIO MONITOR

"This new Injector Air/Fuel Monitor not only will help you tune your
air/fuel ratio but monitors your engines injection system
simultaneously.  This unit precisely monitors your injectors duty
cycles.  As you add headers, cams, bigger turbo, etc., you can monitor
the air/fuel mixture and injector performance.  As the engine leans out
and your injector duty cycle reaches 100%, it's time for bigger
injectors or more flow through the system.  This unit can save you
thousands of dollars in the trial-and-error of replacing expensive
injectors and expensive engine parts.  The unit works on virtually any
type of electronic fuel injection and comes with easy-to-follow
instructions."

TPI Air/Fuel Ratio Monitor...AUT-9902  $99.95
TBI Air/Fuel Ratio Monitor...AUT-9903  $99.95
Weld-on fitting.............K85-21688  $3.91
O2 sensor plug..............K85-21686  $3.55
High Resolution O2 Sensor....AUT-9900  $57.95


   Looks interesting to me.  Hopefully this will prove worthwhile to
someone.  Has anyone had any experience with thes units?
   Sorry if this has been discussed already.

Aaron

ICQ # 27386985


From doug at ddelectronics.com  Fri Jan  8 08:11:51 1999
From: doug at ddelectronics.com (Doug Bazarnic)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 03:11:51 -0500
Subject: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS
Message-ID: <mailman.31845.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Has anyone used / tried a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor?   I have a '95 Chevy 1/2
ton truck with a small blower making 9 lbs of boost, and I'm thinking of
trying a 2 BAR map sensor from Accel.   I assume all I'll have to do is
adjust my fuel settings.   I'm also assuming the stock computer won't throw
a fit with it.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks

Doug Bazarnic


From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Fri Jan  8 09:38:32 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 04:38:32 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31846.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks Tom!

At 10:04 PM 1/7/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 1/7/99 12:36:28 PM Central Standard Time,
>clarencewood at centuryinter.net writes:
>
>I think it should look like this:
>
> 		1	8	4	3	6	5	7	2
>1	0	P		C		I		E	
>	90		P		C		I		E
>2	180	E		P		C		I	
>	270		E		P		C		I
>3	0	I		E		P		C	
>	90		I		E		P		C
>4	180	C		I		E		P	
>	270		C		I		E		P
>
>The first column counts the strokes, and the second column indicates degrees
>from top dead center of the #1 piston.
>
>Visualize the  #1 and #2 pistons, whose rods are mounted on the same crank
>journal, firing.  #2 fires (the P at the bottom right corner of the chart).
>The #1/#2 journal rotates (along with the rest of the crankshaft, hopefully!!)
>90 degrees, and #1 is at TDC (the P at the top left of the chart).  After
>another 90 degrees of crank rotation, the #7/#8 journal , which is 180 degrees
>off from the #1/#2 journal, has brought #8 to TDC (P in the "8" column).  90
>degrees later, #7 is at TDC, but at the beginning of the intake stroke (I in
>the "7" column).  You'll get the idea if you picture the whole thing rotating.
>
>I hope after all that, I got it right!?
>
>Tommy
>TMead17327 at aol.com
>
>  
>
><<                 Firing order         
>           1  8  4  3  6  5  7  2
> Stroke
>   1.      P  C  I  E  P  C  I  E       (P=power,C=comp,I=intake,E=exht)
>   2.      E  P  C  I  E  P  C  I
>   3.      I  E  P  C  I  E  P  C
>   4.      C  I  E  P  C  I  E  P
>  >>
>
>


From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Fri Jan  8 09:38:35 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 04:38:35 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31847.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Eric,
  Is it possible for you to get some of this stuff and sell it to the members of the list?  I'd bet that if an individual ordered it they would have to buy a lot more than they needed.

At 10:08 PM 1/6/99 -0800, you wrote:
>3M makes some stuff they call Louver Film. It comes in a sheet (.062 or
>,032 thick) and built like a venitian blind, so restricts the viewing
>angle. Opaque off the design axis and clear on  axis.  We use it in the
>dispay biz to control the viewing angle of flat panel displays. 
>Lotsa Luck Eric
>85 GTI with VR6 Power
>
>


From ludis at cruzers.com  Fri Jan  8 10:57:52 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 05:57:52 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31848.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) wrote:
> A flat crank V-8 is like two fours.  Too
> late at night to try to describe the shaking which results.

I once worked through this mental exercise.  The four cylinder hop gets
turned into rotation back and fourth about the crank*.  The frequency is
the same as the power pulses.  In other words, the imbalance turns into
drive line pulses.  This info is from memory, and my original analysis
might have been wrong.  Its too late to double check my thinking.

* It might end up being about the center of mass, which would then mean
a more complex motion.

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/



From stuart at kenelec.com.au  Fri Jan  8 11:06:10 1999
From: stuart at kenelec.com.au (Stuart Bunning)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 06:06:10 -0500
Subject: Delco 639
Message-ID: <mailman.31849.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Some of the new DELCO's use flash rom's soldered directly to the board.
If this is the ECU I am thinking of it may have a space on the PCB where a
connector could be soldered to about half the size of the conventional
memcal socket. If you follow the traces on the pcb from this socket it
should go directly to the flash rom. If this is the ECU I think it may be
you can desolder the flash rom and solder in a socket/small adapter board
and use a convertional eprom. One of the daewoo's did this i read a magazine
article about.



 
At 11:33 PM 6/1/99 +1100, you wrote:
>Hi all
>
>Have any of you guys come accross a DELCO 16208639???
>they have no memcal......same size as a 165/808
>They come out od the 94 Holden Barina 1.4 Auto
>
>Justin
>
>


Best Regards,

STUART BUNNING
SALES ENGINEER
KENELEC PTY LTD

23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
AUSTRALIA

PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
EMAIL:  stuart at kenelec.com.au
WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/



From amattei at mindspring.com  Fri Jan  8 13:02:53 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:02:53 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31850.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Peter Fenske wrote:
> 
> calpak ecm 16042431 stamped lists for 85-86 Fbody code F engine, MD8
> trans..

I appreciate all the responses! OK, here's some more info. Peter, I
found that number you gave in Ludis' archives, and thought I might have
been mistaken, but the bar code sticker on the metal cover has the
number 16052541 on it :-/ The bar code sticker on the PCB inside has
"255001205585161"

OK, for the PROM information - I see "HLK" and "2315" on it. Reason I'm
asking... I *think* this came from a TPI305, but we want to use it on a
TPI350. I was hoping for a quick EPROM burn, but if I can't cross ref
it, I don't know if it'll take a standard available .bin or not :)

Thanks!

-Andrew


From ECMnut at aol.com  Fri Jan  8 14:00:08 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:00:08 -0500
Subject: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS
Message-ID: <mailman.31851.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/8/99 3:17:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
doug at ddelectronics.com writes:

> Has anyone used / tried a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor?   I have a '95 Chevy 1/2
>  ton truck with a small blower making 9 lbs of boost, and I'm thinking of
>  trying a 2 BAR map sensor from Accel.   I assume all I'll have to do is
>  adjust my fuel settings.   I'm also assuming the stock computer won't throw
>  a fit with it.

There are quite a number of activities tied to the MAP sensor reading.
Switching to a 2 bar sensor allows you to monitor twice the
pressure range with the same  same5 volts..  I suspect there 
will be some ide problems you will need to work out, as the
volt reading from the MAP sensor will be lower..
Idle will need some work, but athers have probably done this..
Which ECM & chip are you currently using?
How ar you providing enrichment under boost right now?
Mike V


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan  8 14:19:53 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:19:53 -0500
Subject: Duty Cycle Meter / A/F Ratio Meter
Message-ID: <mailman.31852.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Willis <darkmonahue at awwwsome.com>
To: EFI list <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 3:25 AM
Subject: Duty Cycle Meter / A/F Ratio Meter

To really be useful the sensor needs to be a wide ratio, one.  It also,
needs
temperature compensation, items not found in a $60 unit.  While better than
nothing, the accuracy and repeatability of these items suffers.
   If you read bach in the archives, search EGOR, and there is lots of info
about sensors
Bruce


>Haven't been followignthis thread too closely, so I'm not sure if
>you've discussed commercially available units yet.  I found this in the
>Racer Wholesale catalog ('97, p. 87), looking for the Air/Fuel Meter
>mentioned with the snake oil / polish discussion.

>High Resolution O2 Sensor....AUT-9900  $57.95
Aaron
>
>ICQ # 27386985
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 14:28:54 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:28:54 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31853.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>
>>I disagree, Walt-- duty cycle is time on per event spacing, not time on per
>>max time allowed by the program. It is only semantics, but time on per
>>event spacing is what any normal meter will read, plus it is the definition
>>of duty cycle which will relate directly to fuel used per unit time and
>>thus directly to horsepower.
>>
>>Greg
>>
>>
>I guess it all boils down to "For What Purpose" a person wants to know the
>duty cycle of the injector.     If it is for the purpose of estimating fuel
>per unit time, or horsepower, then a conventional duty meter will work fine.
>If it is for the purpose of examining the remaining injector "headroom" of
>your particular control system (ie: for injector sizing and tailbiting
>issues), then you would need to look at things as previously outlined.
>Yes/No?
>
>Walt.

Sure--Like I said above--only semantics.

--Greg




From btisdale at cybersol.com  Fri Jan  8 14:30:15 1999
From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:30:15 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread & CorvEight
Message-ID: <mailman.31854.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Fiberfab sold a fiberglass body & chassis kit called "Valkyrie" that used '65 Corvair drivetrain & mounted a SB Chev @ the "front" of the trans.  Built one of these.  Adapter plate & new input shaft mounted to the Corv gearbox, allowing the V8 to be mounted @ the forward end of the box.  Normal operation had the flat 6 hanging off the diff carrier to the rear & driving the gearbox w/ a long shaft that went thru the diff & trans.  Rotation was the same, so no internal work needed on the diff/trans - was also mounted "right side up", i.e., normally.

Drivetrain came out to be somewhat long, crank pulley of the V8 was @ your right elbow, firewall indented into cockpit.

Weight of mine was 1880 lbs, HP around 327 - best performer I've *ever* driven!

Barry


At 10:55 PM 1/7/99 -0800, Peter Fenske wrote:
>
>
>Hi Shannen and all
>
>What happened with the 350 swap into the corvair as well as
>the "kelmark" is they turned the transaxle upside down backwards
>and the engine kept you company in the back seat
>Not like the Porche V8 swaps UGG
>
>:peter
>
>
>


From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Fri Jan  8 14:31:46 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:31:46 -0500
Subject: aluminum block 215" V8 for sale!
Message-ID: <mailman.31855.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The torque converter (or fluid coupling) is inside the transmission. This is
probably the roto-hydramatic. The flywheel looks like a manual tans type and
like you said it connects to the trans with what looks like a clutch disk,
Full sized cars used this trans also
up to 1964. I have two from a  1964 Pontiac Catalina 389

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jake Sternberg [SMTP:chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 07, 1999 8:08 PM
> To:	diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	aluminum block 215" V8 for sale!
> 
> 
> I have an aluminum 215 cubic inch (3525 cubic centimeters) V8
> from an oldsmobile/buick/triumph/TRV/land rover/etc.
> 
> This is the aluminum V8 everyone has been talking about. It's
> so light you can pick up the block with one hand, and both
> heads with the other.  The intake manifold is a one-finger
> item.
> 
> Comes disassembled with pistons, rods, nuts, bolts, oil pump,
> pickup screen, oil pan, heads, valve covers, valves, nuts,
> bolts, front cover, rear cover, crank, camshaft, etc..
> exhaust manifolds, intake manifold, flywheel, generator,
> EVERYTHING. (no starter but i think a plain buick V6 will fit)
> 
> Includes transmission!  This is a weird item: automatic trans
> with SIX positions/notches on the shifter arm (PRND321 ??) plus
> a kickdown lever. NO TORQUE CONVERTER OR CLUTCH; it just has a
> disc that looks like a clutch disc, but has boltholes instead of
> a friction material.  It bolts onto the flywheel (included with
> the engine) and drives the transmission directly.  This is all
> that i know about the transmission.
> 
> This motor would make a great small car swap, as the entire setup
> will weigh less than an iron 4 cylinder by far and is much meaner.
> This motor is smaller than a chevy V8 by far enough that
> mounting it in a volvo or something would be a piece of cake.
> 
> My price is $500 for everything, not including shipping.
> I'm in austin, texas..
> 
> -jake
> chickens at mail.utexas.edu
> 


From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 14:35:41 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:35:41 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31856.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>From Waterloo Ontario - yes it would read as you state - but no problem.
>>What we are trying to do is make sure the injector is not "locked on" or
>>run in fire-hose mode. The "experts" say 80% is maximum, and in the
>>scenario you propose, anything approaching 80% would be impossible.
>
>
>
>
>Sounds to me like your reason for wanting to monitor "Duty Cycle" is to
>primarily assess the remaining control headroom of your system and its
>injectors?
>
>It is true that you should size your injectors so as to obtain an 80%
>maximum control duty cycle (you can run over 80%, but you have to know your
>specific electromechanical dynamic injector constraints).
>
>But, what do you want 80% of?..................In the earlier example, you
>would want 80% of the time available for actual injection, or 80% of the
>"Ultimate" time.
>
>Once you use up 100% of the ultimate time, you will be out of control and
>out of additional injection time,  even though your dash mounted duty
>"meter"  would have you believe that you are at a super conservative 33%
>duty cycle!
>
>"Duty Meters" are great for certain tasks, I just think that they cannot be
>universally applied to all injection control systems without an
>understanding of what is to be measured and what is actually being measured.
>
>
>
>Walt.

Which could be paraphresed for most tools. Things like oxy-acet torches and
1" drive breaker bars come to mind first for some strange reason! :-)

Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 14:46:41 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:46:41 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31857.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) wrote:
>> A flat crank V-8 is like two fours.  Too
>> late at night to try to describe the shaking which results.
>

>
>* It might end up being about the center of mass, which would then mean
>a more complex motion.

Yep, I think rotation would be about the center of mass of the engine.
Thanks, Ludis--you saved me a cup of coffee this AM that way!! :-)

Regards, Greg
>
>--
>Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
>Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/




From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan  8 14:50:47 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:50:47 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31858.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew K. Mattei <amattei at mindspring.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: What's this ECM?


1985, 5.0L. vin "F"
Bruce
>
>OK, for the PROM information - I see "HLK" and "2315" on it. Reason I'm
>asking... I *think* this came from a TPI305, but we want to use it on a
>TPI350. I was hoping for a quick EPROM burn, but if I can't cross ref
>it, I don't know if it'll take a standard available .bin or not :)
>-Andrew




From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan  8 15:02:14 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:02:14 -0500
Subject: Digital contact breaker and timing advance eliminator
Message-ID: <mailman.31859.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 <aris at exmail.panafon.gr>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 3:48 AM
Subject: Digital contact breaker and timing advance eliminator


>The requirements are relatively simple:
>1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick up
>arranged to fire every 60 degrees.

Crane Camshafts in Florida, USA, makes a universal optical ignition.

>2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism.
>3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard unit
>implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16
>sites.

Commercially MSD, Holley make said units,  kits are available from
Australia, for a DIY.  Use the optics to trigger a oem ecm, and just
use the ignition part of that.  If you want to do a total DIY visit 332EFI,
you can get there off the diy_efi home page.

>4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
>degrees of detonation induced retard.

If you search the archives lots of material on this.  Be sure to include
ION in your search.
Bruce

>5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
>breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
>(already fitted in my car).
>
>Your replies will be highly appreciated
>
>Regards,
>
>Aris
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan  8 15:25:35 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:25:35 -0500
Subject: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS
Message-ID: <mailman.31860.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Bazarnic <doug at ddelectronics.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 3:32 AM
Subject: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS


 I have a '95 Chevy 1/2
>ton truck with a small blower making 9 lbs of boost, and I'm thinking of
>trying a 2 BAR map sensor from Accel.   I assume all I'll have to do is
>adjust my fuel settings.   I'm also assuming the stock computer won't throw
>a fit with it.

The MAP is not a Plug+Play, change item.  It's signal is also used for
figuring out barometric pressure.  So to change it means finding and
changing all the barometric calculations.  The Accel unit is probably
sold for use with a system they sell, that uses a 2 bar calibration.
  I've only heard of two guys change a ecm from one MAP sensor to
another range of MAP, both times was way over 6 months of work.
  Yours being a PCM, I'm assuming it's an auto tranny.  Means even
more work.   Clever use of a Haltech E6GM ecm might be an option.
Bruce
>
>Any info would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>Thanks
>
>Doug Bazarnic
>



From mpitts at netspeak.com  Fri Jan  8 15:27:17 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:27:17 -0500
Subject: 1 Bar, 2 Bar, and 3 Bar MAPS
Message-ID: <mailman.31861.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



<<Has anyone used / tried a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor?   I have a '95 Chevy 1/2
ton truck with a small blower making 9 lbs of boost, and I'm thinking of
trying a 2 BAR map sensor from Accel.   I assume all I'll have to do is
adjust my fuel settings.   I'm also assuming the stock computer won't throw
a fit with it.>>

You can't just change the MAP sensor, it will throw 
*everything* off. Almost every table in the PCM is 
indexed directly or indirectly from MAP.  Including 
some of the transmission tables (if you have an automatic). 
Try it, and you'll immediately see what I mean.  :)

IMO, the correct way to switch to a 2 or 3 bar MAP is 
to write a code patch that scales the new MAP's readings 
back into the 1 bar range for all of the existing tables 
and code.  But store the actual boost reading in RAM 
for your own use, if you want to increase injector DC 
or reduce timing.  This is what I did for my 93 CPI engine. 

It ain't easy though.  I spent every evening and every 
weekend for at least 3 months straight reverse engineering 
my PCM code before I had enough insight to make the code 
patch.  I would guess somewhere in the range of 300-500 
hours so far.

Unless you are prepared to write code patches for your 
PCM, you're better off just sticking with the 1 bar MAP 
and using the whatever you currently have to add the 
additional fuel for boost.

-Mike


From clive at problem.tantech.com  Fri Jan  8 15:27:26 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:27:26 -0500
Subject: Prom for 90 dodge trunks
Message-ID: <mailman.31862.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> There are no eproms available for Dodge vehicles... you have to buy a
> complete computer assy with the perf cals in it. (You can get them from the
> dodge dealer... Mopar Performance is the only company I know of that makes
> them...)
> Dodge (all chrysler) PCM's are potted and sealed... you'd destroy it trying
> to get the epoxy off the circuit board to get at the prom to unsolder it.
> 
> Later,
> Dave


epoxy can be decomposed using strong UV light or heat

takes a little time but it can be removed

Clive 

> 
> 
> At 11:07 PM 1/7/99 -0800, you wrote:
> >r there any performance prom for a 
> >dodge half size truck?
> >
> >not those tuner box that plug in on top of the ecm!!
> 
> ===========================================================
>            David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>      Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>        I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
> ===========================================================



From martins at efn.org  Fri Jan  8 15:32:52 1999
From: martins at efn.org (Martin Scarr)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:32:52 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31863.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:

<snip> 
> That said, I've heard stories about 350's swapped into Corvairs, and
> rear mounted.  I thought the original powerplant was CCW rotation? 
> Anyone?
> 
> Shannen

A 350 won't fit in the rear of a Corvair, it's too long.  A friend just
put a 4.3 in the rear, and it was a tight fit.  Yes, he built a reverse
rotation engine for it.

There were quite a few mid-engine Corvairs built using either the Crown
kit or the Kelmark kit.  The Crown used the 66-69 transaxle (with Saginaw
internals) in the stock location, and used an adapter and modified input
shaft to mate the SBC to the front of the transaxle.  

The Kelmark kit turned the transaxle end for end, and mated to the SBC.
This drives the ring gear on the 'coast' side, and it doesn't last.

Check out http://magi.com/~gaube/corvair/norris01.html for a *very* nice
buildup of a Crown car.

Martin Scarr
'65 Crown Corvair



From martins at efn.org  Fri Jan  8 15:37:20 1999
From: martins at efn.org (Martin Scarr)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:37:20 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31864.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Clarence L.Snyder wrote:

> Not as common as they used to be - many are now geared for reverse
> rotation. I believe the same trick was used on the corveight - flip the
> ring and pinion in the transaxle to reverse the rotation - like on a
> VW/porche

You cannot flip the r/p on a Corvair transaxle, unfortunately.



From JemisonR at tce.com  Fri Jan  8 16:34:49 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:34:49 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31865.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ooooo.   I'd bite!

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Clarence Wood [SMTP:clarencewood at centuryinter.net]
> Sent:	Friday, January 08, 1999 4:38 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Photo Radar
> 
> Eric,
>   Is it possible for you to get some of this stuff and sell it to the
> members of the list?  I'd bet that if an individual ordered it they would
> have to buy a lot more than they needed.
> 
> At 10:08 PM 1/6/99 -0800, you wrote:
> >3M makes some stuff they call Louver Film. It comes in a sheet (.062 or
> >,032 thick) and built like a venitian blind, so restricts the viewing
> >angle. Opaque off the design axis and clear on  axis.  We use it in the
> >dispay biz to control the viewing angle of flat panel displays. 
> >Lotsa Luck Eric
> >85 GTI with VR6 Power
> >
> >


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Fri Jan  8 16:37:14 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:37:14 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31866.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi Andrew

Just burn a 2732 with the 85 vette bin. I got one here somewheres from
my 85 vette if you really need it hollar. Nothin fancy and works in
camaro..

Ps I went to the 165 ecm. You just need the two maf relays to
upgrade. Well you gotta switch about 10 wires on the ecm plug

:peter




From rauscher at icst.com  Fri Jan  8 16:39:23 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:39:23 -0500
Subject: Uh-Oh, PICs
Message-ID: <mailman.31867.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>From: "Georg Lerm" <georg at redxch.wcape.gov.za>
>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:36:27 GMT-2
>Subject: Re: Duty Cycle Monitor Group Buy
>
>Just to set the record straight. There seems a bit of confusion 
>about. If not , I apologize in advance.
>
>The statement made by Steven Ciciora is not correct. The list seems 
>to think that the design I have posted uses a PIC. This is not true.
>The microcontroller device I have used is an Atmel AT89C2051 micro
>It uses the 8051-Architecture, for those are familiar with it.
>Take a look at http://www.atmel.com/atmel/acrobat/doc0368.pdf
>This give you an idea what the chip is all about.
>
>Later...
>Georg

Sorry 'bout that, it was probably me that started refering to it as a
'PIC'. If I may ask, what does PIC stand for? (Peripheral Interface
Controller?). And what is the difference between them and a u-controller?
(You can get technical, I can take it!)


Steve C. wrote:
>I've believed that there has been a need for a duty cycle monitor for
>some time, and have been looking for some time to build one, but with no
>luck.  It seems like one or two people out there have plans.  I would be
>willing to volunteer to put together a kit (design PCB, order parts,
>etc) for such a beast, if someone had some working source code.  I can
>program PICs, too.  What _I_ would like to see on a display is on time
>(in ms), off time, frequency (and/or RPM), and duty cycle (in %).  All
>on an LCD Display.  
>
>If anyone has some PIC source code, please let me know.
>

Wow, Steve likes to go all out. This would be an ideal setup! If anyone
does this, put me down for one of these.


BobR.


------------------------------





From JemisonR at tce.com  Fri Jan  8 16:39:27 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:39:27 -0500
Subject: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31868.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've got a car and a bike (both 4 cyl) with 180 degree cranks.  If you're
interested.

rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Shannen Durphey [SMTP:shannen at grolen.com]
> Sent:	Friday, January 08, 1999 12:38 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design
> 
> diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> > 
> > <snipperoo>
> > 
> > >Clarence,
> > >  This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing
> order,
> > >as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together.  Commonly done in NA
> > >headers and OEM manifolds too.  However, true 180 degree headers on a
> V8
> > >typically take up a lot of space.
> > >   The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine, which
> is
> > >1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.  Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are):
> > >
> > >     1     2        you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is #6,
> #8's
> > >     3     4        is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2.
> > >     5     6
> > >     7     8
> > 
> > #1 and #6 are 180 degrees apart on the distributor, not the crank. #1
> and #4
> > are 180 degrees apart on the crank. Aren't they? What cylinders are
> grouped
> > together with NASCAR 180 degree headers?
> > 
> > Jon
> > 
> > <snip>
> Suppose it would make things easier to include "cam" or "crank". #6
> is  180 cam degrees from #1.  Means that #8 reaches TDC at 630 crank
> degrees.
> 
> Anyone willing to answer some "flat" crank questions off list?
> Shannen


From JemisonR at tce.com  Fri Jan  8 16:39:29 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:39:29 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31869.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I have a flat crank 4.  Is that like two 2's!?????   I don't think I'm ready
to buy into this analogy.  What the 180 degree cranks will do is make your
life (from the standpoint of EFI and electronic ignition) much simpler as
you can cut the number of components in half (even the injectors if you want
to share ports with TPI) and make more horsepower at the expense of a little
more vibration.  I can't speak for v8 characteristics as I've never had one
but a 4 cyl 180 degree motorcycle will idle smoothly and create a boat load
of torque for it's size!

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ludis Langens [SMTP:ludis at cruzers.com]
> Sent:	Friday, January 08, 1999 5:57 AM
> To:	Diy_efi
> Subject:	Re: Turbo header design
> 
> bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) wrote:
> > A flat crank V-8 is like two fours.  Too
> > late at night to try to describe the shaking which results.
> 
> I once worked through this mental exercise.  The four cylinder hop gets
> turned into rotation back and fourth about the crank*.  The frequency is
> the same as the power pulses.  In other words, the imbalance turns into
> drive line pulses.  This info is from memory, and my original analysis
> might have been wrong.  Its too late to double check my thinking.
> 
> * It might end up being about the center of mass, which would then mean
> a more complex motion.
> 
> -- 
> Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
> Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/


From JemisonR at tce.com  Fri Jan  8 16:39:32 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:39:32 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31870.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I don't know the in's and out's of this 180 degree situation but as a frame
of reference, the Saturns use a 180 degree crank, 2 coils, fire 2 injectors
at a time, etc.  Runs dead smooth.  

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Clarence L.Snyder [SMTP:clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net]
> Sent:	Friday, January 08, 1999 1:56 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Turbo header design
> 
> Greg Hermann wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > >    Care to elaborate on this a little? Are we talking about crank
> vibration
> > >(hamonic balancer/flywheel) or something else over my head? Also, a
> Chevy
> > >V-8 fires every 90 degrees of crank rotation. How does a flat crank V-8
> > >fire? Every 180 degrees would make sense, but then it would take 4
> turns of
> > >the crank to hit all 8?! I am so confused......
> > 
> > Secondary vibration, due to the fact that piston accelerations are
> > different at the top and bottom of the stroke due to con rod angularity.
> A
> > four cylinder has an up and down shafing force at twice crank speed
> (which
> > is sometimes countered fairly well with two "balance shafts" counter
> > rotating at twice crank speed.) A flat crank V-8 is like two fours.  Too
> > late at night to try to describe the shaking which results. 
> 
> The well known "big four buzz" common to modified Ford "B"s, Vauxhaul
> 2300s, and ford 2300s, as well as the Vegas (ouch!!) My '28 Chevy
> National and Vauxhaul HC 2300 twin-carb both buzzed pretty good. Hard to
> immagine two of them out of phase!!


From mpitts at netspeak.com  Fri Jan  8 16:42:56 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:42:56 -0500
Subject: Prom for 90 dodge trunks
Message-ID: <mailman.31871.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>epoxy can be decomposed using strong UV light or heat
>>takes a little time but it can be removed

*This* is the kind of info that makes mailing lists such 
a great treasure.  Thank you!

I would guess an eprom eraser would supply sufficiently 
strong UV?

BTW: How much time is "a little time"?

Thanks!
-Mike



From gderian at cybergate.net  Fri Jan  8 16:55:30 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:55:30 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31872.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ultimately, it is best to merge all the exhaust tubes into a single muffler
(even if two pipes lead into it and out of it) to  raise the frequency of
the sound (the same effect as a balance tube).  The high frequency sounds
smoother and also is easier to silence, meaning less backpressure for a
given noise level.  I think it is typical for Hi-Po foreign V-8's to have
two into one cast iron manifolds with two downpipes that in turn merge into
a single cat for each side.  Alternately, having four smaller cats, one at
the first merge, gets the cats closer to the engine.  Today's cars have
their exhaust systems designed first for quick cat lightoff, then for
performance or cost.

A standard crank V-8 has a rotating couple (front pushes up while the rear
pushes down) of constant magnitude that is in the same direction as the
crank rotation.  This is easily counteracted by weights at the front and
rear of the crank.  Ever notice that the crank weights on the ends are not
opposite the journals?  The offset angle is 18 degrees.  These weights
cancel the rotating couple imbalance.

A flat crank is like 2 4cyls and each bank, as Greg indicated, has a
vertical shake at twice engine speed.  Placing two banks at 90 deg, each
with a vertical shake, results in a rotating force, but not a couple,  at
twice the engine rpm.

Obviously, every manufacturer but Ferrari, whose largest V-8 is 3.5 liters,
has chosen the 90 deg crank route for their V-8's.  It is my opinion that
the tri-Y setup on a 90 deg crank V-8 gives up very little if any to a true
180 deg exhaust for street engines.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>
>>A reasonably close approximation to true 180 deg. headers can be made with
>>the old tri-Y approach.  As Aaron wrote, true 180 would require merging
>1-6,
>>8-5, 4-7, 3-2 which is difficult to make.  Merging 1-5, 3-7, 4-6, 2-8
>>enables cylinder pairs to share an exhaust pipe without interfering and is
>>relatively easy to build.  This is common in high output European and
>>Japanese V-8 engines.
>
>Do they have 4 exhausts exit the car? Or are there collectors further
>downstream to make it duals or a single?




From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 17:04:30 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:04:30 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31873.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Peter Fenske wrote:
> >
> > calpak ecm 16042431 stamped lists for 85-86 Fbody code F engine, MD8
> > trans..
> 
> I appreciate all the responses! OK, here's some more info. Peter, I
> found that number you gave in Ludis' archives, and thought I might have
> been mistaken, but the bar code sticker on the metal cover has the
> number 16052541 on it :-/ The bar code sticker on the PCB inside has
> "255001205585161"
> 
> OK, for the PROM information - I see "HLK" and "2315" on it. 

Yup. Your eprom's from a camaro.  1985, 305HO, MFI, 4spd auto w/air.
The ECM will sometimes have several numbers on it.  The one we used in
the dealership was the "service number", and if it wasn't on there we
usually couldn't cross the other numbers.  The 'vette .bins which fit
the camaro ecm in 85.  The 'vettes had 350s.
Shannen

Reason I'm
> asking... I *think* this came from a TPI305, but we want to use it on a
> TPI350. I was hoping for a quick EPROM burn, but if I can't cross ref
> it, I don't know if it'll take a standard available .bin or not :)
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Andrew



From amattei at mindspring.com  Fri Jan  8 17:06:23 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:06:23 -0500
Subject: Uh-Oh, PICs
Message-ID: <mailman.31874.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

rauscher at icst.com wrote:
> Sorry 'bout that, it was probably me that started refering to it as a
> 'PIC'. If I may ask, what does PIC stand for? (Peripheral Interface
> Controller?). And what is the difference between them and a u-controller?
> (You can get technical, I can take it!)

Just about everything you want to know is at http://www.microchip.com -
a PIC is a RISC based microcontroller. Gotta get me some of that... ;)
Looks like a lot of fun! Available with EEPROM or OTP, in lots of
flavors. Digikey sells 'em pretty cheap too...

-Andrew


From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 17:12:56 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:12:56 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31875.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Shannen Durphey wrote:
> >
> > I apologise to the list and the writer for this, but I'm not recieving
> > any source info through my new isp, and without a siggy I can't tell
> > who  is sending what.  Hopefully the problem will be solved soon.
> >
> > That said, I've heard stories about 350's swapped into Corvairs, and
> > rear mounted.  I thought the original powerplant was CCW rotation?
> > Anyone?
> >
> > Shannen
> 
Actually, the stories I heard were in my home town, and the corvair
parked up the street from my girlfriend's house.  Reason I asked is
cause we called this guy "sparky" as in "hey, dude spark up another
one".  Always thought he was lacking a certain something (brain
cells??) needed to make the swap.  But I never looked at the car to
confirm the stories.

> The infamous "Corveight" = used the Corvette 327, from what I remember.
> Saw one at one of the Ontario shows this summer - think it was Waterdown
> - possibly Barrie. About the only 'vair that could beat Don Yenko's 240
> stinger.
That sounds like a fun car.
Shannen



From amattei at mindspring.com  Fri Jan  8 17:19:42 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:19:42 -0500
Subject: What's this ECM?
Message-ID: <mailman.31876.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Shannen Durphey wrote:
> Yup. Your eprom's from a camaro.  1985, 305HO, MFI, 4spd auto w/air.
> The ECM will sometimes have several numbers on it.  The one we used in
> the dealership was the "service number", and if it wasn't on there we
> usually couldn't cross the other numbers.  The 'vette .bins which fit
> the camaro ecm in 85.  The 'vettes had 350s.
> Shannen

Thanks for the verification, ya'll. Peter, I might be chatting with you
later about that '85 'vette .bin - 

PS - my company is moving in three weeks, and there are bins and piles
of electronic junk to be scrapped. Why are all the EE's scavenging
around like hungry vultures? <G>

-Andrew (Love that pile marked "Free stuff") ;)


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Fri Jan  8 17:29:40 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:29:40 -0500
Subject: Uh-Oh, PICs
Message-ID: <mailman.31877.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> Sorry 'bout that, it was probably me that started refering to it as a
> 'PIC'. If I may ask, what does PIC stand for? (Peripheral Interface
> Controller?). And what is the difference between them and a u-controller?
> (You can get technical, I can take it!)

In PCs, PIC stands for programmable interrupt controller.  In this
mailing list, PIC means a line of microcontrollers designed by Microchip
(www.microchip.com). Some have A/D built in, some have PWM built in,
etc.  All are cheap and pretty easy to use.

> Wow, Steve likes to go all out. This would be an ideal setup! If anyone
> does this, put me down for one of these.

I would also buy one of these.  Georg's design is nice as it has an LCD,
plus is opto-isolated from the injector signal.  I'd personally prefer a
PIC based design, but as long as someone else is doing the
programming....  :-)

--steve

> 
> BobR.
> 
> ------------------------------


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Fri Jan  8 17:38:38 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:38:38 -0500
Subject: Prom for 90 dodge trunks
Message-ID: <mailman.31878.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



With the dodge PCM thing somewhere is the exact location of
the rom on the board. Have seen it posted somewhere.
This is the location where the expoxy must be removed.
Clip the prom leads and solder in a zif socket..
Also some toxic chemicals will remove expoxy.

:peter




From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Fri Jan  8 17:40:51 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:40:51 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31879.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  After chasing, for over a year, a stumble that occurs as boost goes over 5 lbs I had the remarkable encounter with a person who knew exactly what caused the problem.  Strange, how solutions to problems present themselves!
  Anyway, he told me that the Nissan 280's have a problem with the ECM, or ECCS, connectors.  For some reason they become corroded and for some reason this causes a stumble.  He said that they, in his shop, pull the connectors and spray them with WD40.  Well, gasp!  Not trusting WD40 to the task I used CRC contact cleaner, worked the connectors in and out, and low and behold, the stumble disappeared!!!! (:>  ZM000000M
  Now, what can I do to solve this problem???  Is there some chemical that I can use that will stop the corrosion?  I thought about removing the connectors and using connectors like on my computer, that could be locked into place by set screws.  This is a lot of work.  Surely there must be something that can be sprayed, that will do the job!




From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 17:47:21 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:47:21 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31880.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> > > For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft, some 1/4
> > > plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize.
> > The real work-a-holics use a hacksaw.  And don't tell me I can't cut a
> > straight line with a hacksaw.
> > Shannen
> 
For a mere $19.95 plus shipping+handling I ship you the manual.  ; ) 
It's a skill older than lead bodyfiller.
Shannen

> Okay, you can't cut a straight line with a hacksaw.  I tried
> this for my mid-engined car - needed a CV on each end,
> mating 87 corvette IRS hubs to an Audi FWD transmission,
> slopped in the back of the vehicle.  The first attempt was
> what you suggested - cutting both the GM and the Audi axles,
> inserting a 1/4" circular plate, and welding.  After two
> attempts, I realized I couldn't weld them perfectly straight
> using the wooden jig I made, so I asked a friend to
> fabricate them from scratch.  Less balancing issues, one
> piece, no worries about welds giving out (I don't weld as
> good as most), etc.
> 
> A competent machine shop can spline both sides.
> 
> --
> 
> Frederic Breitwieser
> Bridgeport, CT 06606
> 
> http://www.xephic.dynip.com
> 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
> 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
> 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
> 2000 Buick GTP (V6 twin turbo)



From chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca  Fri Jan  8 18:23:56 1999
From: chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca (Wen Yen Chan)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:23:56 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31881.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello,

Poly Phenyl Ether seems to work well. Stabilant 22A works even better but
is bloody expensive. I prefer Stabilant 22A as it is a non conductive
liquid which becomes conductive when there is arcing between the contacts.
I use Stabilant 22A at work on connectors which are worn out but a real
pain to replace (200 pin connectors between rows of surface mount parts
for example).

Wen

On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Clarence Wood wrote:

>   After chasing, for over a year, a stumble that occurs as boost goes over 5 lbs I had the remarkable encounter with a person who knew exactly what caused the problem.  Strange, how solutions to problems present themselves!
>   Anyway, he told me that the Nissan 280's have a problem with the ECM, or ECCS, connectors.  For some reason they become corroded and for some reason this causes a stumble.  He said that they, in his shop, pull the connectors and spray them with WD40.  Well, gasp!  Not trusting WD40 to the task I used CRC contact cleaner, worked the connectors in and out, and low and behold, the stumble disappeared!!!! (:>  ZM000000M
>   Now, what can I do to solve this problem???  Is there some chemical that I can use that will stop the corrosion?  I thought about removing the connectors and using connectors like on my computer, that could be locked into place by set screws.  This is a lot of work.  Surely there must be something that can be sprayed, that will do the job!
> 
> 
> 



From WRN at valley-media.com  Fri Jan  8 18:45:12 1999
From: WRN at valley-media.com (William Northrup)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:45:12 -0500
Subject: Good work Greg..
Message-ID: <mailman.31882.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  The header design you spoke of is a very good design. There are easy
ways and lazy ways to kinda accomplish the same thing but they will
never reach that potential. I had a set try y's on my street Mustang that
worked and sounded awesome. As my Mustang grew into the full race
(road race) mode my needs changed. I built a set of custom try's (not a
set of fancy under the pan types) with oversized tubing. The oversized
tubing was used to soften jagged torque peaking. When you are in a long
right-hand sweeper at 120mph in oversteer, the sudden application of
torque is a bad thing. These headers teamed up with a merge in the
tertiary pipes works very well. The merge was accomplished by cutting
off the outside 1/2 off of two 3 inch 90's and welding them together in an
x or )( fashion. At about 6000 RPM this setup would develop a beautiful
Indy car like whine through 7500 RPM. Check out the next NASCAR
restrictor plate race. Look carefully at the exhaust system as they fly
through the air and you will see what I am talking about. 

Greg can you please elaborate more on that resonance/expansion
chamber you were talking about? Thanks!


From dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us  Fri Jan  8 18:54:02 1999
From: dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us (David Sagers)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:54:02 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31883.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The secretary here has a louver screen on the front of her monitor so that people can't read sensitive information over her shoulder.  The screen looks black if you are more than 30 degrees off center on the horizontal plane, but it does not block the view if you are above or below center.

The problem with louver film is that it would be very visible to the eye and you would be a target for police.  A better alternative would be a sheet of polarizing film.  Polarizing film would appear transparent to the naked eye but two polarizing filters crossed at 90 degrees block out all light.

I suspect that photoradar cameras have a polarizing filter set horizontal to cut back on glare.  A second polarizing screen, oriented vertical, over a license plate would block the view from a camera with a horizontally positioned polarizing filter.

You can check for a polarizing filter with another polarizing lens, such as a pair of sunglasses with polarizing lenses (mine were about $10 at Wal Mart).  Look through one polarizing lens at the photoradar and rotate the lens.  If the photoradar lens goes black then clear as you rotate your polarizing lens, the photoradar has a polarizing lens and you can use polarizing film to block the photoradar.

Most states don't have photo radar (yet!),  so you may not be interested in going to the trouble of getting a polarizing film to put over your license plate . . . Unless of course, you are concerned about secret government cameras tracking you as you drive down the road.



From dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us  Fri Jan  8 18:56:02 1999
From: dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us (David Sagers)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:56:02 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31884.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Edmund Scientific carries polarizing film.  On the net they are at http://www.edsci.com.  Click on optics then polarizing to see a list of products




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 19:13:46 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:13:46 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31885.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I don't know the in's and out's of this 180 degree situation but as a frame
>of reference, the Saturns use a 180 degree crank, 2 coils, fire 2 injectors
>at a time, etc.  Runs dead smooth.
>
>Rick
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:	Clarence L.Snyder [SMTP:clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net]
>> Sent:	Friday, January 08, 1999 1:56 AM
>> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> Subject:	Re: Turbo header design
>>
>> Greg Hermann wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >    Care to elaborate on this a little? Are we talking about crank
>> vibration
>> > >(hamonic balancer/flywheel) or something else over my head? Also, a
>> Chevy
>> > >V-8 fires every 90 degrees of crank rotation. How does a flat crank V-8
>> > >fire? Every 180 degrees would make sense, but then it would take 4
>> turns of
>> > >the crank to hit all 8?! I am so confused......
>> >
>> > Secondary vibration, due to the fact that piston accelerations are
>> > different at the top and bottom of the stroke due to con rod angularity.
>> A
>> > four cylinder has an up and down shafing force at twice crank speed
>> (which
>> > is sometimes countered fairly well with two "balance shafts" counter
>> > rotating at twice crank speed.) A flat crank V-8 is like two fours.  Too
>> > late at night to try to describe the shaking which results.
>>
>> The well known "big four buzz" common to modified Ford "B"s, Vauxhaul
>> 2300s, and ford 2300s, as well as the Vegas (ouch!!) My '28 Chevy
>> National and Vauxhaul HC 2300 twin-carb both buzzed pretty good. Hard to
>> immagine two of them out of phase!!

The Vega was so bad cuz its block was so #@$% light! (that lightness turned
into bigger amplitude shake) A pancake 8 is fine with a flat crank, cuz the
two fours cancel each others shake perfectly (except for a twisting moment
about the yaw axis through the center of mass if the bores are offset from
side to side). Had that morning coffee now!

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 19:21:55 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:21:55 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31886.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
>>
>> > > For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft,
>>some 1/4
>> > > plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize.
>> > The real work-a-holics use a hacksaw.  And don't tell me I can't cut a
>> > straight line with a hacksaw.
>> > Shannen
>>
>For a mere $19.95 plus shipping+handling I ship you the manual.  ; )
>It's a skill older than lead bodyfiller.
>Shannen

I believe that pipe fighters call it a "pipe-wrap"

Greg
>
>> Okay, you can't cut a straight line with a hacksaw.  I tried
>> this for my mid-engined car - needed a CV on each end,
>> mating 87 corvette IRS hubs to an Audi FWD transmission,
>> slopped in the back of the vehicle.  The first attempt was
>> what you suggested - cutting both the GM and the Audi axles,
>> inserting a 1/4" circular plate, and welding.  After two
>> attempts, I realized I couldn't weld them perfectly straight
>> using the wooden jig I made, so I asked a friend to
>> fabricate them from scratch.  Less balancing issues, one
>> piece, no worries about welds giving out (I don't weld as
>> good as most), etc.
>>
>> A competent machine shop can spline both sides.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Frederic Breitwieser
>> Bridgeport, CT 06606
>>
>> http://www.xephic.dynip.com
>> 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
>> 1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
>> 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
>> 2000 Buick GTP (V6 twin turbo)




From jqadir at direct.ca  Fri Jan  8 19:58:25 1999
From: jqadir at direct.ca (jq)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:58:25 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31887.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

uh guyz.

check w/ u'r state to see if altering u'r
license plate is illegal.

over here even obsuring it w/ a bike rack is
grounds for a ticket.


From dciobota at hiwaay.net  Fri Jan  8 20:09:05 1999
From: dciobota at hiwaay.net (Daniel Ciobota)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:09:05 -0500
Subject: Good work Greg..
Message-ID: <mailman.31888.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

William et al.,

 I can attest to the neat indy sound gained with the "x pipe" merge mentioned
in your post.  A couple of companies sell these for mustangs, mine is a Dr.
Gas unit.  I tried to custom make one myself, but the tight radius required
due to the short distance between the collectors made it nearly impossible
without using expensive tubing.  I believe Dr. Gas can sell you just the x
piece for about $80 in a 2.5" or 3" diameter tube size.
 Btw, the sound is really awesome; I've had more than one car follow me to
work and asking me how I got my stang to sound like a ferrari.  I always smile
when I tell them it's just exhaust...

 To William, can you e-mail me off line the details of your header system you
built?  I don't know what motor you have (mine's a late model 302), but I've
always believed a properly designed exhaust can be worth as much if not more
than all the other aftermarket boltons most people slap on their cars...  I'm
still searching for the best exhaust for my car.

Daniel


William Northrup wrote:

>   The header design you spoke of is a very good design. There are easy
> ways and lazy ways to kinda accomplish the same thing but they will
> never reach that potential. I had a set try y's on my street Mustang that
> worked and sounded awesome. As my Mustang grew into the full race
> (road race) mode my needs changed. I built a set of custom try's (not a
> set of fancy under the pan types) with oversized tubing. The oversized
> tubing was used to soften jagged torque peaking. When you are in a long
> right-hand sweeper at 120mph in oversteer, the sudden application of
> torque is a bad thing. These headers teamed up with a merge in the
> tertiary pipes works very well. The merge was accomplished by cutting
> off the outside 1/2 off of two 3 inch 90's and welding them together in an
> x or )( fashion. At about 6000 RPM this setup would develop a beautiful
> Indy car like whine through 7500 RPM. Check out the next NASCAR
> restrictor plate race. Look carefully at the exhaust system as they fly
> through the air and you will see what I am talking about.
>
> Greg can you please elaborate more on that resonance/expansion
> chamber you were talking about? Thanks!



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Fri Jan  8 20:12:28 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:12:28 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31889.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence Wood wrote:
> 
>   After chasing, for over a year, a stumble that occurs as boost goes over 5 lbs I had the remarkable encounter with a person who knew exactly what caused the problem.  Strange, how solutions to problems present themselves!
>   Anyway, he told me that the Nissan 280's have a problem with the ECM, or ECCS, connectors.  For some reason they become corroded and for some reason this causes a stumble.  He said that they, in his shop, pull the connectors and spray them with WD40.  Well, gasp!  Not trusting WD40 to the task I used CRC contact cleaner, worked the connectors in and out, and low and behold, the stumble disappeared!!!! (:>  ZM000000M
>   Now, what can I do to solve this problem???  Is there some chemical that I can use that will stop the corrosion?  I thought about removing the connectors and using connectors like on my computer, that could be locked into place by set screws.  This is a lot of work.  Surely there must be something that can be sprayed, that will do the job!

CRC makes a product for that purpose - can't remember the name. LPS 2
will do the job too. Even a silicone grease does wonders.


From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan  8 20:25:25 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:25:25 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31890.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> >diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> >>
> >> > > For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft,
> >>some 1/4
> >> > > plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize.
> >> > The real work-a-holics use a hacksaw.  And don't tell me I can't cut a
> >> > straight line with a hacksaw.
> >> > Shannen
> >>
> >For a mere $19.95 plus shipping+handling I ship you the manual.  ; )
> >It's a skill older than lead bodyfiller.
> >Shannen
> 
> I believe that pipe fighters call it a "pipe-wrap"
> 
> Greg
Shhh.  Not everyone knows a pipefitter.
Shannen



From james at brc.ubc.ca  Fri Jan  8 20:37:45 1999
From: james at brc.ubc.ca (James Weiler)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:37:45 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31891.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I second that motion.
jw


On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Clarence Wood wrote:

> Eric,
>   Is it possible for you to get some of this stuff and sell it to the members of the list?  I'd bet that if an individual ordered it they would have to buy a lot more than they needed.
> 
> At 10:08 PM 1/6/99 -0800, you wrote:
> >3M makes some stuff they call Louver Film. It comes in a sheet (.062 or
> >,032 thick) and built like a venitian blind, so restricts the viewing
> >angle. Opaque off the design axis and clear on  axis.  We use it in the
> >dispay biz to control the viewing angle of flat panel displays. 
> >Lotsa Luck Eric
> >85 GTI with VR6 Power
> >
> >
> 


From james at brc.ubc.ca  Fri Jan  8 20:41:56 1999
From: james at brc.ubc.ca (James Weiler)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:41:56 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31892.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

what about dielectric grease?Almost all the connections in the EEC-IV 
harness have this stuff in them.
jw


On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Clarence Wood wrote:

>   After chasing, for over a year, a stumble that occurs as boost goes over 5 lbs I had the remarkable encounter with a person who knew exactly what caused the problem.  Strange, how solutions to problems present themselves!
>   Anyway, he told me that the Nissan 280's have a problem with the ECM, or ECCS, connectors.  For some reason they become corroded and for some reason this causes a stumble.  He said that they, in his shop, pull the connectors and spray them with WD40.  Well, gasp!  Not trusting WD40 to the task I used CRC contact cleaner, worked the connectors in and out, and low and behold, the stumble disappeared!!!! (:>  ZM000000M
>   Now, what can I do to solve this problem???  Is there some chemical that I can use that will stop the corrosion?  I thought about removing the connectors and using connectors like on my computer, that could be locked into place by set screws.  This is a lot of work.  Surely there must be something that can be sprayed, that will do the job!
> 
> 
> 


From dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us  Fri Jan  8 20:54:36 1999
From: dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us (David Sagers)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:54:36 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31893.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

It is in most US States, but it's much cheaper than a moving violation ticket.  Also, this infraction is not aggressively enforced,

>>> jq <jqadir at direct.ca> 01/08 12:56 PM >>>
uh guyz.

check w/ u'r state to see if altering u'r
license plate is illegal.

over here even obsuring it w/ a bike rack is
grounds for a ticket.



From synchris at ricochet.net  Fri Jan  8 20:55:06 1999
From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:55:06 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31894.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 11:56 AM 1/8/99 -0700, David Sagers wrote:

> The secretary here has a louver screen on the front of her monitor
> so that people can't read sensitive information over her shoulder.
> The screen looks black if you are more than 30 degrees off center
> on the horizontal plane, but it does not block the view if you are
> above or below center.

Has everyone seen those billboards that show different images as
you move from dead-on to viewing from a shallow angle? *That's* what
we need alright! ;)  One with the State Governor's plate # would
be pretty popular...

Another issue with louver film is that the camera may be taking a
picture when you're well down the road, and thus it'd be seeing the
plate pretty much straight on. My car (thank you Toyota!) has the
plate in a recessed area compares to the taillights, which already
obscures a letter or 2 at extreme viewing angles.

> The problem with louver film is that it would be very visible to the
> eye and you would be a target for police.  A better alternative
> would be a sheet of polarizing film.  Polarizing film would appear 

Agree with the comments on polarizing. Perhaps this is part of a
solution to LIDAR as well? Actually while thinking about LIDAR
countermeasures I stumbled across "circular polarizing" filters,
used for laptop screens. Incoming light was polarized in such a
way that the reflected light didn't make it back through the filter
again. (Sorry, the details elude me.) Light coming *out* from the
laptop display got polarized once, but made it through ok. Maybe
you could mount such a filter 1" or so off the place, so that the
license plate lights would still illuminate it ok, but outside light
(LIDAR, photo radar flash) would not make it through as easily?

Does the plate itself (and/or the corner reflector material) also
have a polarizing effect too?


As for it being illegal to obstruct the plate, I'm sure it
technically is here (MD/DC/VA area in the USA), but lots of people
do it and seem to get by ok. Also at least in some places it would
be a cheap, no-points fix-it ticket, and if it saves you from an
expensive, points-carrying speeding ticket... well, might be worth
it.

   Chris



From rwebb at ptialaska.net  Fri Jan  8 20:59:59 1999
From: rwebb at ptialaska.net (Ronald T. Webb)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:59:59 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31895.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

One comment on photo RADAR. In Anchorage, Alaska, it was tried. The judges would not convict (they are elected) and the people raised hell.

The police are public employees. They can be reminded of that if enough voices are loud enough!

Sorry to get so far off topic.

David Sagers wrote:

> The secretary here has a louver screen on the front of her monitor so that people can't read sensitive information over her shoulder.  The screen looks black if you are more than 30 degrees off center on the horizontal plane, but it does not block the view if you are above or below center.
>
> The problem with louver film is that it would be very visible to the eye and you would be a target for police.  A better alternative would be a sheet of polarizing film.  Polarizing film would appear transparent to the naked eye but two polarizing filters crossed at 90 degrees block out all light.
>
> I suspect that photoradar cameras have a polarizing filter set horizontal to cut back on glare.  A second polarizing screen, oriented vertical, over a license plate would block the view from a camera with a horizontally positioned polarizing filter.
>
> You can check for a polarizing filter with another polarizing lens, such as a pair of sunglasses with polarizing lenses (mine were about $10 at Wal Mart).  Look through one polarizing lens at the photoradar and rotate the lens.  If the photoradar lens goes black then clear as you rotate your polarizing lens, the photoradar has a polarizing lens and you can use polarizing film to block the photoradar.
>
> Most states don't have photo radar (yet!),  so you may not be interested in going to the trouble of getting a polarizing film to put over your license plate . . . Unless of course, you are concerned about secret government cameras tracking you as you drive down the road.



From mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca  Fri Jan  8 21:28:59 1999
From: mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Matt Beaubien)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:28:59 -0500
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.31896.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce,

> >The requirements are relatively simple:
> >1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick up
> >arranged to fire every 60 degrees.
> 
> Crane Camshafts in Florida, USA, makes a universal optical ignition.
> 
> >2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism.
> >3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard unit
> >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16
> >sites.
> 
> Commercially MSD, Holley make said units,  kits are available from
> Australia, for a DIY.  Use the optics to trigger a oem ecm, and just
> use the ignition part of that.  If you want to do a total DIY visit 332EFI,
> you can get there off the diy_efi home page.

The Accel 49340 (IIRC) allows what the orginal poster is looking for. It
has adjustable vacuum/boost advance/retard as well as a N20 input. It may
require a magnetic reluctor-type signal to function though.

I don't think MSD makes something similar (you can only adjust the slope
and max advance as far as I know), and I'm not too familiar with the
Holley stuff. The Accel piece is ~$150-$200.

Hope that helps.


Matt.




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 21:37:13 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:37:13 -0500
Subject: Good work Greg..
Message-ID: <mailman.31897.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>  The header design you spoke of is a very good design.

Thanks! Just so as we all understand that there is no "IDEAL" header design!

 These headers teamed up with a merge in the
>tertiary pipes works very well. The merge was accomplished by cutting
>off the outside 1/2 off of two 3 inch 90's and welding them together in an
>x or )( fashion. At about 6000 RPM this setup would develop a beautiful
>Indy car like whine through 7500 RPM. Check out the next NASCAR
>restrictor plate race. Look carefully at the exhaust system as they fly
>through the air and you will see what I am talking about.

No need to look under those circumstances--there's a much easier way to
view it--look at a picture of it in the Burns Stainless catalogue!! :-)
<www.burnsstainless.com>
>
>Greg can you please elaborate more on that resonance/expansion
>chamber you were talking about? Thanks!

Picture a straight piece of pipe, appropriate size. Support it so that
neither piece will move when you are done with the bandsaw or tube cutter.
Make the first cut (square to the pipe) so that the length of the tertiary
tube to the cut from the merge of the secondary tubes to the cut is the
same length as the primary and secondary tubes. Make your second cut about
1/2' or 3/4" behind the first cut (don't need much length to the gap you
are creating.) (Remove the short piece!) :-)
Now build the plenum chamber around the gap so that the total volume of the
chamber is about twice the volume of the tertiary tube up to the first cut.
(more volume does not hurt, but about twice is about enough to do the job.)
Shape of chamber (oval, round, etc does not much matter, enough internal
volume is what does matter.) The chamber is concentric with the pipe, and
usually most of it is positioned ahead of the gap, sorrounding the tertiary
tube. From the gap back, it does not much matter what you do as to length,
so long as the tail pipe (and straight thru muffler or mufflers, if needed)
stay the same diameter as the tertiary pipe. The header will see the gap in
the pipe as an open end for pulse tuning. I SUSPECT that such a plenum may
even work better than an open pipe terminated at the same length as where
the first cut is.

I  think that the "cross" between the tertiary pipes on a system like you
described is a "lazy" way to get closer to the tuning of true, crossed over
180 degree headers on a V-8. If you are willing (and if it is possible, no
small if there!) to do true 180's, I do not think that the cross would do
much for you at all.

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 21:47:55 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:47:55 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31898.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>what about dielectric grease?Almost all the connections in the EEC-IV
>harness have this stuff in them.
>jw

There is some kind of whitish-clear silicone goop that Phone and Cable TV
guys use on outdoor connections which is killer for that purpose--but I
dunno a name or source for it.

Greg
>
>
>On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Clarence Wood wrote:
>
>>   After chasing, for over a year, a stumble that occurs as boost goes
>>over 5 lbs I had the remarkable encounter with a person who knew exactly
>>what caused the problem.  Strange, how solutions to problems present
>>themselves!
>>   Anyway, he told me that the Nissan 280's have a problem with the ECM,
>>or ECCS, connectors.  For some reason they become corroded and for some
>>reason this causes a stumble.  He said that they, in his shop, pull the
>>connectors and spray them with WD40.  Well, gasp!  Not trusting WD40 to
>>the task I used CRC contact cleaner, worked the connectors in and out,
>>and low and behold, the stumble disappeared!!!! (:>  ZM000000M
>>   Now, what can I do to solve this problem???  Is there some chemical
>>that I can use that will stop the corrosion?  I thought about removing
>>the connectors and using connectors like on my computer, that could be
>>locked into place by set screws.  This is a lot of work.  Surely there
>>must be something that can be sprayed, that will do the job!
>>
>>
>>




From pford at qnx.com  Fri Jan  8 21:58:29 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:58:29 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31899.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, David Sagers wrote:

> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 13:56:20 -0700
> From: David Sagers <dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Photo Radar
> 
> It is in most US States, but it's much cheaper than a moving violation ticket.  Also, this infraction is not aggressively enforced,

in the Ottawa Can. area it seems that if you didn't make the cop drop his 
doughnut he wont bother you

> 
> >>> jq <jqadir at direct.ca> 01/08 12:56 PM >>>
> uh guyz.
> 
> check w/ u'r state to see if altering u'r
> license plate is illegal.
> 
> over here even obsuring it w/ a bike rack is
> grounds for a ticket.

strange for the last two weeks my tracker has been coat in ice
 

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan  8 23:03:40 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:03:40 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31900.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>
>in the Ottawa Can. area it seems that if you didn't make the cop drop his
>doughnut he wont bother you
>
>>
In Colorado, if he spills his coffee, it's an equal number of points--go
straight to jail if he does both!

Greg




From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan  8 23:03:49 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:03:49 -0500
Subject: Wide Ratio Bosch O2
Message-ID: <mailman.31901.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Would anyone happen to know of an application, or part number
for a Bosch wide ratio O2 sensor.
  Other than NGK (NGT), and Bosch anyone know of any others?.
Not leaded resistant like the LSM-11, wide ratio.
Thanks in advance
Bruce





From israels at MNSi.Net  Fri Jan  8 23:33:40 1999
From: israels at MNSi.Net (todd israels)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:33:40 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31902.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 10:43 PM 1/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Got a 3M P/N for the stuff?
>/Marc
>
>----------
>From: 	Eric Schumacher[SMTP:e.schumacher at worldnet.att.net]
>Sent: 	January 6, 1999 11:08 PM
>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: Photo Radar
>
>3M makes some stuff they call Louver Film. It comes in a sheet (.062 or
>,032 thick) and built like a venitian blind, so restricts the viewing
>angle. Opaque off the design axis and clear on  axis.  We use it in the
>dispay biz to control the viewing angle of flat panel displays. 
>Lotsa Luck Eric
>85 GTI with VR6 Power
>
>
>
	I have heard a roumor that several layers of clearcoat applied to the
plate will give a simmilar result.  Mutch like you can see the rool if you
look directly at a rool of plastic film(seran wrap) but the rool soon
disapears as it rool away.  Dont know any details except a comment of 2
cans per plate.  
	A bike rack mounted on the hitch will work as well and probably not get
the police excited very often.  
		
		Todd Israels




From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Fri Jan  8 23:40:48 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:40:48 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31903.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Sounds great! Where is it sold?  Who makes it?  Maybe less expensive than backfire at full boost.  Do you have to buy in quantity?

At 01:23 PM 1/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Poly Phenyl Ether seems to work well. Stabilant 22A works even better but
>is bloody expensive. I prefer Stabilant 22A as it is a non conductive
>liquid which becomes conductive when there is arcing between the contacts.
>I use Stabilant 22A at work on connectors which are worn out but a real
>pain to replace (200 pin connectors between rows of surface mount parts
>for example).
>
>Wen
>



From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Sat Jan  9 01:14:09 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:14:09 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31904.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

try getting some electrical conductive grease from GM or Ford they sell 
small tube exactly for this purpose

----------
From: 	Clarence Wood[SMTP:clarencewood at centuryinter.net]
Sent: 	January 8, 1999 10:39 AM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	ECM connector cleaner

  After chasing, for over a year, a stumble that occurs as boost goes over 
5 lbs I had the remarkable encounter with a person who knew exactly what 
caused the problem.  Strange, how solutions to problems present themselves!
  Anyway, he told me that the Nissan 280's have a problem with the ECM, or 
ECCS, connectors.  For some reason they become corroded and for some reason 
this causes a stumble.  He said that they, in his shop, pull the connectors 
and spray them with WD40.  Well, gasp!  Not trusting WD40 to the task I 
used CRC contact cleaner, worked the connectors in and out, and low and 
behold, the stumble disappeared!!!! (:>  ZM000000M
  Now, what can I do to solve this problem???  Is there some chemical that 
I can use that will stop the corrosion?  I thought about removing the 
connectors and using connectors like on my computer, that could be locked 
into place by set screws.  This is a lot of work.  Surely there must be 
something that can be sprayed, that will do the job!





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From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Sat Jan  9 01:47:10 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:47:10 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31905.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/8/99 9:47:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, JemisonR at tce.com
writes:

<< I don't know the in's and out's of this 180 degree situation but as a frame
 of reference, the Saturns use a 180 degree crank, 2 coils, fire 2 injectors
 at a time, etc.  Runs dead smooth.  
 
 Rick >>
Yes, it is true that four cylinder motors use flat cranks, BMW twins run them
and a host of other uses. They equal power pulses. Triumph Twins used a a
single throw crank and suffered from lots of interesting balance problems when
they were raced, some experiemtation was done with opposing throws, but it
went to a 90/270 firing order. Actually better on slick tracks or with tire
restrictions, but sounds strange and a lot of trouble to do. I raced one of
the few ones locally that didn't try to shake apart. Ran about 78% total
weight for balance. Full weight flywheel helped. Flat cranks on V8's are
another matter, they treat the motor as two nested straight 4's. As a note
Chris Craft in England was making a V8 from two Yamaha 1100's on a 90 degree
crank case. Used Carrilo rods and custom crank. Never heard a price. Used all
stock parts from the base gasket up and made great power.
A note about uneven firing and such. Harley and Ducati have had advantages
over other bikes at times in racing. Harley's uneven power pulses allowed the
tires to plant better betwen pulses. Ducati twins were better off the corners
than the fours for the same relative reason. Some of the Japanese racing two
stroke fours were set up to pair the power strokes for the same reason. more
of a tractor torque instead of a jet. Didn't affect dyno HP, just
tractability.
Fred


From q_chen at usa.net  Sat Jan  9 03:39:29 1999
From: q_chen at usa.net (Qiang Chen)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:39:29 -0500
Subject: Inquiry
Message-ID: <mailman.31906.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello members,

Is there any body who can tell me what the percentage of the four
stroke motorcycle engine that is using EFI? What is the configuration
(CPU,RAM,ROM,I/O,PIN, Injector,Spark Plug, Battery) of a
typical EFIed motorcycle engine ECU, eg 250-500ml?

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,
Qiang Chen                         mailto:q_chen at usa.net



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan  9 04:02:08 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:02:08 -0500
Subject: 93 Z28 Disassembly - Found TPS voltage limits & default value
Message-ID: <mailman.31907.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I tackled the Throttle Load Axis Variable (it is used heavily to
determine TCC lockup).   I still don't understand exactly what
is is calculating, if someone wants to look at the flowchart,
it is at http://www.hit.net/~rah/F43B_F4C6.gif .    The 
part of the code that I don't understand the purpose of is the
A = A - B part, I don't understand exactly why.  The rest of
things are pretty clear.  I have the things that confuse me
marked as such.

Ok,  I found the limits of the TPS voltage.  If the voltage is
less than 0x0C or greater than 0xF6 then it uses 0x38 as the default value.  I expect with
the TPS failed things may run pretty odd.
The above limits are pretty clear from the flowchart.

The page for all of my info is at:

http://www.hit.net/~rah/promwork.html

                        Roger


From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Sat Jan  9 04:07:48 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:07:48 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31908.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Martin Scarr wrote:

> 
> 
> On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> <snip> 
> > That said, I've heard stories about 350's swapped into Corvairs, and
> > rear mounted.  I thought the original powerplant was CCW rotation? 
> > Anyone?
> > 
> > Shannen
> 
> A 350 won't fit in the rear of a Corvair, it's too long.  A friend just
> put a 4.3 in the rear, and it was a tight fit.  Yes, he built a reverse
> rotation engine for it.
> 
Never say never. It might not be too desireable to do, but I have seen it
done. a 327 not a 350 not that that makes any dimensional difference...




From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Sat Jan  9 04:15:25 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:15:25 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread [now U joints]
Message-ID: <mailman.31909.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Greg Hermann wrote:

> >> > > For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft,
> >>some 1/4
> >> > > plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize.
> >> > The real work-a-holics use a hacksaw.  And don't tell me I can't cut a
> >> > straight line with a hacksaw.
> >> > Shannen
> >>
> >For a mere $19.95 plus shipping+handling I ship you the manual.  ; )
> >It's a skill older than lead bodyfiller.
> >Shannen
> 
> I believe that pipe fighters call it a "pipe-wrap"
> 
> >> using the wooden jig I made, so I asked a friend to
> >> fabricate them from scratch.  Less balancing issues, one
> >> piece, no worries about welds giving out (I don't weld as
> >> good as most), etc.
> >>
Not that you should do this but...if you must cut a thin wall tube
straight buy a KD roller type exhaust pipe cutter, set up carefully and
rock on.




From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Sat Jan  9 04:21:26 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:21:26 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31910.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, jq wrote:

> uh guyz.
> 
> check w/ u'r state to see if altering u'r
> license plate is illegal.
> 
> over here even obsuring it w/ a bike rack is
> grounds for a ticket.
> 
Yes it is, but the numbskulls dont enforce it. They just announced it with
lotsa PR and then ran and hid. Its "invisible" to the police...

They are also BSing on the plastic plate covers, too. I got some seized
and when I set a court date, they "elected not to prosecute" political
correctness is sure confusing...





From Galadar at worldnet.att.net  Sat Jan  9 04:25:06 1999
From: Galadar at worldnet.att.net (Jon Fedock)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:25:06 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31911.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks for the information. I have visions of header tubes criscrossing
under everything I own now :).

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: Turbo header design


>>
>>    Care to elaborate on this a little? Are we talking about crank
vibration
>>(hamonic balancer/flywheel) or something else over my head? Also, a Chevy
>>V-8 fires every 90 degrees of crank rotation. How does a flat crank V-8
>>fire? Every 180 degrees would make sense, but then it would take 4 turns
of
>>the crank to hit all 8?! I am so confused......
>
>Secondary vibration, due to the fact that piston accelerations are
>different at the top and bottom of the stroke due to con rod angularity. A
>four cylinder has an up and down shafing force at twice crank speed (which
>is sometimes countered fairly well with two "balance shafts" counter
>rotating at twice crank speed.) A flat crank V-8 is like two fours.  Too
>late at night to try to describe the shaking which results. A 90 degree
>crank V-8 is not in perfect primary and secondary balance, as Gary claimed,
>but it is close. An in line 6 has inherently PERFECT primary and secondary
>balance. Only reason for crank sounterweights inna 6 is to reduce bending
>stress in the crank and block.
>
>Tertiary balance is another matter--it has to do with connecting rod mass
>distribution, and is generally accepted as being not too significant.
>Efforts to obtain/improve it explain the long tangs sometimes seen
>projecting above the small end on a connecting rod, and also the rather
>large pads often seen on the bottom of the big and cap of rods.
>
>Why the Super speedway headers sound so neat (as also did Ford Mark IV's
>and Ford's four -cam Indy V-8's) is cause the individual exhaust pulses
>into each of their two collectors are EVENLY SPACED (180 crank degrees
>apart) , from whence the name. You cannot get that on a V-8 with a 90
>degree crank without crossing tubes from side to side (bank to bank) to the
>collectors. You do get it with a four into one header on each bank (without
>crossovers) on a V-8 with a flat crank.
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>
>



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan  9 04:30:38 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:30:38 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31912.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence Wood wrote:
> 
> Sounds great! Where is it sold?  Who makes it?  Maybe less expensive than backfire at full boost.  Do you have to buy in quantity?
> 

The Stab22 IS expensive. When I bought mine (about seven years ago) it
was something like $47 US per ounce. came in a six ounce bottle if I
remember for close to $300 including shipping.
Works good on memory and processor sockets to avoid crashes - Sorry. I
don.t have manufacturers info - the company I worked for then is history
so I can't even check there. I have a couple ounces left.


From synchris at ricochet.net  Sat Jan  9 04:42:22 1999
From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:42:22 -0500
Subject: MTBE in gas, fuel line deterioration
Message-ID: <mailman.31913.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi everyone,

A wise-sounding fellow on another list was saying that MTBE in certain
pump gasolines can cause over-rapid deterioration of rubber fuel lines
in some older cars. (And that the MTBE was used to meet some relatively
new emissions-related legal requirements, say within the past few years.
Also I think this applied to California, and perhaps some other states,
but not necessarily to all states.)  He further claimed a ~30% increase
in engine bay fires in the time period covered.

So what I'm wondering is, should I worry that today's pump gas might
eat up rubber fuel lines extra quick? Would this only apply to "older"
cars, and if so, how old would "older" be? 10 years, 20 years?

Anyway it seemed like if this was a genuine issue, it'd be a pretty
serious thing, and worth some preemptive part replacement.

   Thanks,
   Chris C.



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan  9 04:56:53 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:56:53 -0500
Subject: MTBE in gas, fuel line deterioration
Message-ID: <mailman.31914.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Chris Conlon wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> A wise-sounding fellow on another list was saying that MTBE in certain
> pump gasolines can cause over-rapid deterioration of rubber fuel lines
> in some older cars. (And that the MTBE was used to meet some relatively
> new emissions-related legal requirements, say within the past few years.
> Also I think this applied to California, and perhaps some other states,
> but not necessarily to all states.)  He further claimed a ~30% increase
> in engine bay fires in the time period covered.
> 
> So what I'm wondering is, should I worry that today's pump gas might
> eat up rubber fuel lines extra quick? Would this only apply to "older"
> cars, and if so, how old would "older" be? 10 years, 20 years?
> 
> Anyway it seemed like if this was a genuine issue, it'd be a pretty
> serious thing, and worth some preemptive part replacement.
> 
>    Thanks,
>    Chris C.
There was a recall on some Nissan products for replacement of injector
coupling hoses for this reason - believe it affected Maxima sixes. On
the affected model there were a fair number of fires.


From JemisonR at tce.com  Sat Jan  9 04:59:39 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:59:39 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31915.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Fred,

Well, I've got 4 XS1100s and they definitely get a punch from the 180 design
(95hp) stock.  And this was 20 years ago.  The uneven torque helps when the
surface doesn't allow an even transfer of power (like dirt tracks for
instance).  Then the uneven machines have a definite advantage as the lull
between strokes helps the tire 'grab' the track again.  

On the 1100's though you don't notice any uneven firing.  2 cyl up each
power stroke but only one is on the power stroke.  The result is smooth
power pulses.

Like I said, Saturn uses the same basic setup right down to the ignition!
Can you swap them?  Well, not easily due to the fact the Saturn coils are
wired to run to a power control module which talks in turn to the ECM.  On
the Yamaha it is cruder.  But with proper wiring solutions, the coils would
work fine on a Yamaha.  What's more intriging, the fuel injection manifold
sure looks close to fitting the XS!  Nah, thought about it but have decided
on a custom fab unit.

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	FHPREMACH at aol.com [SMTP:FHPREMACH at aol.com]
> Sent:	Friday, January 08, 1999 8:46 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Turbo header design
> 
> In a message dated 1/8/99 9:47:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> JemisonR at tce.com
> writes:
> 
> << I don't know the in's and out's of this 180 degree situation but as a
> frame
>  of reference, the Saturns use a 180 degree crank, 2 coils, fire 2
> injectors
>  at a time, etc.  Runs dead smooth.  
>  
>  Rick >>
> Yes, it is true that four cylinder motors use flat cranks, BMW twins run
> them
> and a host of other uses. They equal power pulses. Triumph Twins used a a
> single throw crank and suffered from lots of interesting balance problems
> when
> they were raced, some experiemtation was done with opposing throws, but it
> went to a 90/270 firing order. Actually better on slick tracks or with
> tire
> restrictions, but sounds strange and a lot of trouble to do. I raced one
> of
> the few ones locally that didn't try to shake apart. Ran about 78% total
> weight for balance. Full weight flywheel helped. Flat cranks on V8's are
> another matter, they treat the motor as two nested straight 4's. As a note
> Chris Craft in England was making a V8 from two Yamaha 1100's on a 90
> degree
> crank case. Used Carrilo rods and custom crank. Never heard a price. Used
> all
> stock parts from the base gasket up and made great power.
> A note about uneven firing and such. Harley and Ducati have had advantages
> over other bikes at times in racing. Harley's uneven power pulses allowed
> the
> tires to plant better betwen pulses. Ducati twins were better off the
> corners
> than the fours for the same relative reason. Some of the Japanese racing
> two
> stroke fours were set up to pair the power strokes for the same reason.
> more
> of a tractor torque instead of a jet. Didn't affect dyno HP, just
> tractability.
> Fred


From cmorgan at efn.org  Sat Jan  9 05:11:31 1999
From: cmorgan at efn.org (Charles Morgan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 00:11:31 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31916.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 11:30 PM 1/8/99 -0500, Clarence L.Snyder wrote:
>The Stab22 IS expensive. When I bought mine (about seven years ago) it
>was something like $47 US per ounce. came in a six ounce bottle if I
>remember for close to $300 including shipping.
>Works good on memory and processor sockets to avoid crashes - Sorry. I
>don.t have manufacturers info - the company I worked for then is history
>so I can't even check there. I have a couple ounces left.

Stabilant 22A is made by:
D.W. Electrochemicals Ltd
97 Newkirk Rd, N., Unit 3
Richmond Hill, Ontario L4C 3G4, Canada
905/508-7500

An article on Stabilant 22A appeared in the April 95 issue of Hot Rod.  I
purchased some from Car Quest Auto Parts.  It was $41 (US) for an 18ml bottle.

Charles Morgan



From JemisonR at tce.com  Sat Jan  9 05:23:22 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 00:23:22 -0500
Subject: Inquiry
Message-ID: <mailman.31917.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Qiang,

There are many of the new motorcycles being offered that are being offered
(at least as an option) EFI.  Harley Davidson, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Honda
are all offering at least one model with EFI.  

If you start looking at bikes more than a couple of years old the ratio
drops very fast to something like (I'll guess 5%).  5 years back <1% (read
not many).  

If I understand the rest of your question correctly and you're asking about
EFI on motorcycles in the 250 - 500cc range (1ml = 1cc more or less -
standard conditions and all) I don't know that the question applies.  EFI is
expensive and tends to be offered right now on the larger (more expensive)
machines.  I don't personally know of any motorcycles being manufactured
with EFI under 850cc.  Someone else may be able to shed more light on this.

what would it take to set one up?  A completely different question.  I'm
working on putting EFI on a 1100 4 cyl inline 4 stroke.  I'm planning on
using a PIC (microcontroller) with 2 8bit A/D inputs and 16 digital i/o
lines for control.  There are several methods of setting the system up but
some people on the list have experimented (at least initially) with just
random firing the injections in bank mode at a perset duty cycle (emulating
the old constant flow injection systems).  Idle isn't great but past say
2000 works great.

There are people on this list much, much better than I that could correct
me, expound on these ideas and lead you in the right direction.

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Qiang Chen [SMTP:q_chen at usa.net]
> Sent:	Saturday, January 09, 1999 6:10 AM
> To:	EFI
> Subject:	Inquiry
> 
> Hello members,
> 
> Is there any body who can tell me what the percentage of the four
> stroke motorcycle engine that is using EFI? What is the configuration
> (CPU,RAM,ROM,I/O,PIN, Injector,Spark Plug, Battery) of a
> typical EFIed motorcycle engine ECU, eg 250-500ml?
> 
> Your help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Best regards,
> Qiang Chen                         mailto:q_chen at usa.net


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan  9 05:25:57 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 00:25:57 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31918.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Charles Morgan wrote:
> 
> At 11:30 PM 1/8/99 -0500, Clarence L.Snyder wrote:
> >The Stab22 IS expensive. When I bought mine (about seven years ago) it
> >was something like $47 US per ounce. came in a six ounce bottle if I
> >remember for close to $300 including shipping.
> >Works good on memory and processor sockets to avoid crashes - Sorry. I
> >don.t have manufacturers info - the company I worked for then is history
> >so I can't even check there. I have a couple ounces left.
> 
> Stabilant 22A is made by:
> D.W. Electrochemicals Ltd
> 97 Newkirk Rd, N., Unit 3
> Richmond Hill, Ontario L4C 3G4, Canada
> 905/508-7500
> 
> An article on Stabilant 22A appeared in the April 95 issue of Hot Rod.  I
> purchased some from Car Quest Auto Parts.  It was $41 (US) for an 18ml bottle.
> 
> Charles Morgan
That's closer to $75 per ounce.(35cc/ounce +/-)
It is usually used thinned with alky.


From mdporter at rt66.com  Sat Jan  9 05:25:57 1999
From: mdporter at rt66.com (Michael D. Porter)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 00:25:57 -0500
Subject: MTBE in gas, fuel line deterioration
Message-ID: <mailman.31919.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Chris Conlon wrote:
> 
> So what I'm wondering is, should I worry that today's pump gas might
> eat up rubber fuel lines extra quick? Would this only apply to "older"
> cars, and if so, how old would "older" be? 10 years, 20 years?

This came up on another list a while back, and the "new" additive wasn't
mentioned by name, but I presume they meant MBTE. Fuels using this
additive are in use in Albuquerque, but not in the rest of the state, so
I'm fairly certain that its use is restricted to those places with
ongoing smog problems indentified as such by the EPA, which would
include CA. It is simply an oxygenator, like alcohol. 

However, to answer your question, yes, I've heard the same thing about
older cars, but the break point for older, if I recall the message from
the other list correctly, was something like 1991. At any rate,
silicone-lined hose would likely take care of the problem.

Cheers.


From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Jan  9 06:01:22 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:01:22 -0500
Subject: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31920.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> I've got a car and a bike (both 4 cyl) with 180 degree cranks.  If you're
> interested.
> 
Thanks.  Greg H was kind enough to help.
Shannen
> rick
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shannen Durphey [SMTP:shannen at grolen.com]
> > Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 12:38 AM
> > To:   diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > Subject:      Re: 180 degree headers WAS:Re: Turbo header design
> >
> > diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> > >
> > > <snipperoo>
> > >
> > > >Clarence,
> > > >  This is easily done with an inline four having a 1-3-4-2 firing
> > order,
> > > >as you just pair cyl's 1-4 and 2-3 together.  Commonly done in NA
> > > >headers and OEM manifolds too.  However, true 180 degree headers on a
> > V8
> > > >typically take up a lot of space.
> > > >   The only firing order i am familiar with is for a GM engine, which
> > is
> > > >1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.  Picture the cyliders as two rows (which they are):
> > > >
> > > >     1     2        you can see that #1's 180 degree partner is #6,
> > #8's
> > > >     3     4        is #5, #4's is #7 and #3's is #2.
> > > >     5     6
> > > >     7     8
> > >
> > > #1 and #6 are 180 degrees apart on the distributor, not the crank. #1
> > and #4
> > > are 180 degrees apart on the crank. Aren't they? What cylinders are
> > grouped
> > > together with NASCAR 180 degree headers?
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > Suppose it would make things easier to include "cam" or "crank". #6
> > is  180 cam degrees from #1.  Means that #8 reaches TDC at 630 crank
> > degrees.
> >
> > Anyone willing to answer some "flat" crank questions off list?
> > Shannen



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan  9 06:08:20 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:08:20 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31921.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ok,

I have pretty much disassembled and deciphered the TCC lockup code,
and I feel I can add some code for a TCC lockup scheme, but I don't
want to go to the trouble of adding it if it won't help.

Without code changes (only data)

The current lockup occurs at 95 mph, which is way down in my rpm range for my engine,
about 4400 before lockup, 4000 after lookup.  I am going to change this so that it locks
up just before the end of the 1/4, somewhere around 105 or so.  

No code change required for this:
The second choice is to lock it up at say 76 in second gear and let it stayed locked
through 3rd also.

Here is the scheme that requires code adjustment:

The third choice is to lock it at 76 in 2nd, unlock it in the lower rpms in 3rd and lock
it back up just before the end of the quarter in 3rd.  The idea is to get the engine more
quickly through the lower rpms,
and lock the converter at the best moment to keep things around the
power band.  76 mph in 2nd puts me just a bit higher than my HP peak.  The locking before
the end of the 1/4 is because the car lurches pretty hard when the convertor locks, and
currently after it lurchs the engine hits low rpms and more slowly accelerates.

I know the GN guys had some schemes, are they similar to what I have and which one worked
the best?

I am also considering more serious code changes, such as adjustments to allow less fuel to
be injected in 1st and 2nd to get a more optimal mixture.

				Roger


From edwards at mail.sunbeach.net  Sat Jan  9 06:21:01 1999
From: edwards at mail.sunbeach.net (edwards at mail.sunbeach.net)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:21:01 -0500
Subject: now U joints
Message-ID: <mailman.31922.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft, some 1/4 
> > > plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize. 
> > 
> Okay, you can't cut a straight line with a hacksaw.  I tried 
> inserting a 1/4" circular plate, and welding.  After two 
> attempts, I realized I couldn't weld them perfectly straight 
> using the wooden jig I made, so I asked a friend to 
> fabricate them from scratch.  Less balancing issues, one 
> piece, no worries about welds giving out (I don't weld as 
> good as most), etc. 
> 
> A competent machine shop can spline both sides. 

There is a far easier way to do this, it will not be as neat but the result will be a much straighter shaft and it will be stronger too. You make up a sleeve of the right thickness slide the shafts into the sleeve and weld the sleev onto the shafts at the two ends. The two shafts are joined by the sleeve or coupling if you want to call it that. No need for gigs or do you have to worry about a warped weld. You must try for as tight a fit as possible before welding
If you have two different sizes of shafts you can make each side of the sleeve to the coresponding size of the shaft. 

Pedro


From clive at problem.tantech.com  Sat Jan  9 06:39:15 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 01:39:15 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31923.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> Fred,
> 
> Well, I've got 4 XS1100s and they definitely get a punch from the 180 design
> (95hp) stock.  And this was 20 years ago.  The uneven torque helps when the
> surface doesn't allow an even transfer of power (like dirt tracks for
> instance).  Then the uneven machines have a definite advantage as the lull
> between strokes helps the tire 'grab' the track again.  


all 4 cyl 4 strokes should be 180^ by default
anything else would be just plain dumb

Clive 


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Sat Jan  9 07:03:49 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 02:03:49 -0500
Subject: Good work Greg..
Message-ID: <mailman.31924.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann wrote:

> The header will see the gap in
> the pipe as an open end for pulse tuning. I SUSPECT that such a plenum may
> even work better than an open pipe terminated at the same length as where
> the first cut is.

Take a set of headers and add extensions to the collectors of the same size (3
1/2) and lightly spray the extensions with cheap black paint. Make a couple of
hard passes and the paint will change color at the point they should be cut
off.  This may also work to find the location of the plenum chamber. Engines
sound different when extensions are trimmed like described.  Tom



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Sat Jan  9 07:19:50 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 02:19:50 -0500
Subject: now U joints
Message-ID: <mailman.31925.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

edwards at mail.sunbeach.net wrote:

> For the work-a-holics, just make a drive shaft using an old shaft, some 1/4
> > > > plate steel, a lathe, welder, and an axle from a FWD GM midsize.

For the machine shop impared, always cut driveshafts at the end. I was just suggestion attaching commonly available CV joints to the ends of a standard drive shaft.    Tom



From trinity at golden.net  Sat Jan  9 08:34:08 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 03:34:08 -0500
Subject: 93 Z28 Disassembly - Found TPS voltage limits & default value
Message-ID: <mailman.31926.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I tackled the Throttle Load Axis Variable (it is used heavily to
>determine TCC lockup).   I still don't understand exactly what
>is is calculating, if someone wants to look at the flowchart,
>it is at http://www.hit.net/~rah/F43B_F4C6.gif .    The 
>part of the code that I don't understand the purpose of is the
>A = A - B part, I don't understand exactly why.  The rest of
>things are pretty clear.  I have the things that confuse me
>marked as such.
>

The first one is where the PCM determines the "low" TPS voltage. What it
does is, if the current TPS A/D counts are less than the stored minimum TPS
voltage ($016B), the logic will use a first-order lag filter routine (at
FB63) and a very, very slow filter constant (at 8681 which is 01h) to "add"
this new minimum TPS reading to the current minimum TPS reading. This way,
the PCM has a "baseline" voltage from which 0% TPS is "started".

The second one is where the PCM determines the difference between the
current TPS A/D counts and this "minimum TPS" voltage - the SBA. The result
is what is used to determine the percent above "closed" (i.e. the minimum
TPS voltage) the current TPS reading is.

As far as I can tell, the approximate (ignoring rounding) translation of the
code between F46F and F48A is:

    % = (CurrentAD - "ClosedAD") * 111 * 4 / 256

or

    % = (CurrentAD - "ClosedAD") / 1.73

where '%' ranges from 00h (0%) to FFh (100%).

If the "closed" TPS is, say, 30h counts (0.94V), the 100% TPS reading should
appear at about:

    255 = Delta / 1.73
    Delta ~= 147 counts

30h + 93h == C3h or about 3.82V 


Any and all corrections welcome.

Hope this helps.

--
Mike



From trinity at golden.net  Sat Jan  9 08:41:05 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 03:41:05 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31927.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Ok,
>
>I have pretty much disassembled and deciphered the TCC lockup code,
>and I feel I can add some code for a TCC lockup scheme, but I don't
>want to go to the trouble of adding it if it won't help.
>
>Without code changes (only data)
>
>The current lockup occurs at 95 mph, which is way down in my rpm range for
my engine,
>about 4400 before lockup, 4000 after lookup.  I am going to change this so
that it locks
>up just before the end of the 1/4, somewhere around 105 or so.  
>
>No code change required for this:
>The second choice is to lock it up at say 76 in second gear and let it
stayed locked
>through 3rd also.
>
>Here is the scheme that requires code adjustment:
>
>The third choice is to lock it at 76 in 2nd, unlock it in the lower rpms in
3rd and lock
>it back up just before the end of the quarter in 3rd.  The idea is to get
the engine more
>quickly through the lower rpms,
>and lock the converter at the best moment to keep things around the
>power band.  76 mph in 2nd puts me just a bit higher than my HP peak.  The
locking before
>the end of the 1/4 is because the car lurches pretty hard when the
convertor locks, and
>currently after it lurchs the engine hits low rpms and more slowly accelerates.
>
>I know the GN guys had some schemes, are they similar to what I have and
which one worked
>the best?
>
>I am also considering more serious code changes, such as adjustments to
allow less fuel to
>be injected in 1st and 2nd to get a more optimal mixture.
>
>				Roger
>
>

Regarding the TCC, the only thing I'd be careful of is engaging the clutch
too soon and plowing the maximum engine torque through it. Most TCCs aren't
designed to handle the full torque of the stock engine let alone the torque
of a modified motor and may be damaged if locked too soon.

I thought this was a problem for the GN crowd some time back where chips
were engaging the clutch to reduce driveline slippage (and thus get better
ETs/MPH) but the price was wasted converters after only a few runs...

--
Mike



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Sat Jan  9 09:37:18 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 04:37:18 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31928.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Roger Heflin wrote:

> I have pretty much disassembled and deciphered the TCC lockup code,
> and I feel I can add some code for a TCC lockup scheme, but I don't
> want to go to the trouble of adding it if it won't help.
>
> The current lockup occurs at 95 mph, which is way down in my rpm range for my engine,
> about 4400 before lockup, 4000 after lookup.  I am going to change this so that it locks
> up just before the end of the 1/4, somewhere around 105 or so.
>
> The second choice is to lock it up at say 76 in second gear and let it stayed locked
> through 3rd also.

Roger,

Why don't you use a toggle switch in your lap or on the shifter to manually lock/unlock the
converter. A couple of runs and you should have a pretty good idea what you want/need.

Another $0.02     Tom

PS I'm also worried about reliability locking the converter under WOT conditions. I would only
lock it to get a jump at the finish line (if you're bracket racing and you need it!)..



From adrian.teo at asu.edu  Sat Jan  9 12:28:13 1999
From: adrian.teo at asu.edu (Adrian Teo)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:28:13 -0500
Subject: Wide Band Lambda Sensor, where can I locate?
Message-ID: <mailman.31929.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Actually, only certain specific Honda models use the wide range O2 sensors. The
O2 sensor in question is the NTK UEGO 5 (or sometimes 8-wire) O2 sensoer.

This sensor is usually found in the following Hondas:
US Models
92-95 Civic VX
96+ Civic HX

>From Honda dealers they go for about $150 but you can find them at wrecking yards
from $30-$50.

-AT



Greg Hermann wrote:

> >In a message dated 1/5/99 10:36:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
> >writes:
> >
> >>
> >>  Honda VTEC's use an NGK which is way superior to the Bosch unit.
> >
> >Is this a wide range sensor, and which models/engines used it?
>
> Yes, it is wide range, and very quick response. VTEC engines. Honda part #
> is in archives within last 10 weeks or so. Controlling it is not a simple
> matter.
> Jobber cost from Honda is in $110 USD range.
>
> Regards, Greg
>
> >Thanks,
> >Mike V




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan  9 13:48:43 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:48:43 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31930.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 1:23 AM
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?

Don't lock the TCC under full throttle!.
The TCC is much softer than the other clutches in the tranny to prevent it
from chattering.  I've gone thru 4 or so tranny overhauls in my 700R4.  Last
guy said ditch the TCC, and you'll never break it again.  Well put 50,000
on it, and it's still alive.  Cording to him what kills the 700's 4L60's is
the
TCC fllaking off and contaninating the fluid, and at a microscopic level,
getting embedded in the other clutches, and then they fail so like the 3-4
clutch problem is really caused by the TCC.  I will admit, that I'm hell on
trannies,
with all the calibration testing I was doing, but going to a non-lock up
converter was the best tranny money I've spent.  If you don't drive hard
often, or mileage is your primary concern ignore the above.
  Also, comparing the 700 to the GN 200 isn't a good comapro in my book.
The 200 as installed in a stock gn is light years ahead of stock 700, in
my opinion.  Very early in the gn program, it was looked at to haul 4
guys with misc hardware at WOT in pursuit situations.  The 700 was
never really successful at that, from what I've seen/heard.
  Bruce


>Ok,
>
>I have pretty much disassembled and deciphered the TCC lockup code,
>and I feel I can add some code for a TCC lockup scheme, but I don't
>want to go to the trouble of adding it if it won't help.
>
>Without code changes (only data)
>
>The current lockup occurs at 95 mph, which is way down in my rpm range for
my engine,
>about 4400 before lockup, 4000 after lookup.  I am going to change this so
that it locks
>up just before the end of the 1/4, somewhere around 105 or so.
>
>No code change required for this:
>The second choice is to lock it up at say 76 in second gear and let it
stayed locked
>through 3rd also.
>
>Here is the scheme that requires code adjustment:
>
>The third choice is to lock it at 76 in 2nd, unlock it in the lower rpms in
3rd and lock
>it back up just before the end of the quarter in 3rd.  The idea is to get
the engine more
>quickly through the lower rpms,
>and lock the converter at the best moment to keep things around the
>power band.  76 mph in 2nd puts me just a bit higher than my HP peak.  The
locking before
>the end of the 1/4 is because the car lurches pretty hard when the
convertor locks, and
>currently after it lurchs the engine hits low rpms and more slowly
accelerates.
>
>I know the GN guys had some schemes, are they similar to what I have and
which one worked
>the best?
>
>I am also considering more serious code changes, such as adjustments to
allow less fuel to
>be injected in 1st and 2nd to get a more optimal mixture.
>
> Roger
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  9 14:22:22 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:22:22 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31931.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, jq wrote:
>
>> uh guyz.
>>
>> check w/ u'r state to see if altering u'r
>> license plate is illegal.
>>
>> over here even obsuring it w/ a bike rack is
>> grounds for a ticket.
>>
>Yes it is, but the numbskulls dont enforce it. They just announced it with
>lotsa PR and then ran and hid. Its "invisible" to the police...
>
>They are also BSing on the plastic plate covers, too. I got some seized
>and when I set a court date, they "elected not to prosecute" political
>correctness is sure confusing...

And you didn't even have to wear high heels to court to get them to back off??

Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  9 14:31:45 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:31:45 -0500
Subject: MTBE in gas, fuel line deterioration
Message-ID: <mailman.31932.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hi everyone,
>
>A wise-sounding fellow on another list was saying that MTBE in certain
>pump gasolines can cause over-rapid deterioration of rubber fuel lines
>in some older cars. (And that the MTBE was used to meet some relatively
>new emissions-related legal requirements, say within the past few years.
>Also I think this applied to California, and perhaps some other states,
>but not necessarily to all states.)  He further claimed a ~30% increase
>in engine bay fires in the time period covered.
>
>So what I'm wondering is, should I worry that today's pump gas might
>eat up rubber fuel lines extra quick? Would this only apply to "older"
>cars, and if so, how old would "older" be? 10 years, 20 years?
>
>Anyway it seemed like if this was a genuine issue, it'd be a pretty
>serious thing, and worth some preemptive part replacement.
>
>   Thanks,
>   Chris C.

My IMPRESSION has been that MBTE was an additive-used instead of
ethanal--in areas where "oxygenated" fuels have been mandated as an
emissions band-aid--such as the Denver area in the winter time. Supposedly,
the extra oxygen in the fuel would make vehicles typically run leaner under
conditions (combination of high altitude and cold weather in Denver) which
would make them run rich. Since Denver's problem was high CO, this approach
was the collective "wisdom" of the EPA parasites.

The mandate first began when carburetted cars were the norm. The parasitic
numbskulls have never figured out that vehicles with inlet air tract temp
compensation and HEGO sensors have obsoleted their supposed "wisdom". Liddy
Pineapple for Pres--Yeah, sure.

Regards, Greg




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan  9 14:41:46 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:41:46 -0500
Subject: 749 calibration in a 730
Message-ID: <mailman.31933.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well, after finding some faulty hardware, I got the syclone calibration
to run in a 730 ecm.  Doing so moved some pinouts about, for TCC,
and VSS, but it is seen by diacom, and things look ok.  I haven't
attempted to make this a legal calibration, so I'm ignoring the
air management valves, and EGR for now, but all the engine stuff
looks to be running right, and TCC works.
  I'll post a summary later today/tomorrow, but just had to babble/brag a
bit about it........
Bruce          When sharper Cone Shaped Hats are worn, it'll be done
                    here first.........



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan  9 14:46:04 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:46:04 -0500
Subject: PWMETER
Message-ID: <mailman.31934.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Has anyone built it?.
If I send the funds would someone buy/burn/program the chip for me?.
What display should I get?.
Is backlite "better"?
If this is rambling, please write me off list.
Thanks
Bruce       nacelp at bright.net



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  9 14:46:40 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:46:40 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31935.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Ok,
>
>I have pretty much disassembled and deciphered the TCC lockup code,
>and I feel I can add some code for a TCC lockup scheme, but I don't
>want to go to the trouble of adding it if it won't help.
>
>Without code changes (only data)
>
>The current lockup occurs at 95 mph, which is way down in my rpm range for
>my engine,
>about 4400 before lockup, 4000 after lookup.  I am going to change this so
>that it locks
>up just before the end of the 1/4, somewhere around 105 or so.
>
>No code change required for this:
>The second choice is to lock it up at say 76 in second gear and let it
>stayed locked
>through 3rd also.
>
>Here is the scheme that requires code adjustment:
>
>The third choice is to lock it at 76 in 2nd, unlock it in the lower rpms
>in 3rd and lock
>it back up just before the end of the quarter in 3rd.  The idea is to get
>the engine more
>quickly through the lower rpms,
>and lock the converter at the best moment to keep things around the
>power band.  76 mph in 2nd puts me just a bit higher than my HP peak.  The
>locking before
>the end of the 1/4 is because the car lurches pretty hard when the
>convertor locks, and
>currently after it lurchs the engine hits low rpms and more slowly accelerates.
>
>I know the GN guys had some schemes, are they similar to what I have and
>which one worked
>the best?
>
>I am also considering more serious code changes, such as adjustments to
>allow less fuel to
>be injected in 1st and 2nd to get a more optimal mixture.
>
>				Roger

I've been sorta lurking, reading the thread you have been talking about.
Now a couple of unsolicited comments on things you might want to consider.

If you are going to lock up the converter in 3rd, or whatever, and leave it
locked, you might want to consider whether there is some way to unlock it
briefly during the upshift, if it does not do this already on its own. Both
the tranny and the rear end will last a lot longer if it is unlocked during
shifts.

There is not much question that you will get more net power to the wheels
with the converter locked--if the engine is up into its power band. So
mebbe you want to think about a shorter rear axle ratio and locking it up
sooner rather than locking it up later. Of course, this might also require
more tire so as to avoid sitting at the starting line enveloped in a cloud
of smoke!

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  9 14:52:14 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:52:14 -0500
Subject: Good work Greg..
Message-ID: <mailman.31936.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Greg Hermann wrote:
>
>> The header will see the gap in
>> the pipe as an open end for pulse tuning. I SUSPECT that such a plenum may
>> even work better than an open pipe terminated at the same length as where
>> the first cut is.
>
>Take a set of headers and add extensions to the collectors of the same size (3
>1/2) and lightly spray the extensions with cheap black paint. Make a couple of
>hard passes and the paint will change color at the point they should be cut
>off.  This may also work to find the location of the plenum chamber. Engines
>sound different when extensions are trimmed like described.  Tom

Sounds (pardon the pun) good to me Tom--nothing like simple , available,
and to the point!! (in many parts of life!) Good one!

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  9 14:54:40 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:54:40 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31937.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>
>Regarding the TCC, the only thing I'd be careful of is engaging the clutch
>too soon and plowing the maximum engine torque through it. Most TCCs aren't
>designed to handle the full torque of the stock engine let alone the torque
>of a modified motor and may be damaged if locked too soon.
>
>I thought this was a problem for the GN crowd some time back where chips
>were engaging the clutch to reduce driveline slippage (and thus get better
>ETs/MPH) but the price was wasted converters after only a few runs...


Betcha they were not unlocking it during shifts---

Regards, Greg
>
>--
>Mike




From trinity at golden.net  Sat Jan  9 15:42:59 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:42:59 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31938.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>>
>>Regarding the TCC, the only thing I'd be careful of is engaging the clutch
>>too soon and plowing the maximum engine torque through it. Most TCCs aren't
>>designed to handle the full torque of the stock engine let alone the torque
>>of a modified motor and may be damaged if locked too soon.
>>
>>I thought this was a problem for the GN crowd some time back where chips
>>were engaging the clutch to reduce driveline slippage (and thus get better
>>ETs/MPH) but the price was wasted converters after only a few runs...
>
>
>Betcha they were not unlocking it during shifts---
>
>Regards, Greg

That, or it was because the breathed-on 3.8s are making 500+ ft-lbs of
torque and it was all being channeled through the puny (and probably stock)
TCC :)

--
Mike



From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan  9 15:47:37 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:47:37 -0500
Subject: 749 calibration in a 730
Message-ID: <mailman.31939.1369893290.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce,
Sounds very cool..  
Are we talking about  730 turbo development program?
They sure are easier to locate than the Syclone 749..
Did you do this in a 256k EPROM?
Just curious
Mike V.

In a message dated 1/9/99 9:45:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp at bright.net
writes:

> Well, after finding some faulty hardware, I got the syclone calibration
>  to run in a 730 ecm.  Doing so moved some pinouts about, for TCC,
>  and VSS, but it is seen by diacom, and things look ok.  I haven't
>  attempted to make this a legal calibration, so I'm ignoring the
>  air management valves, and EGR for now, but all the engine stuff
>  looks to be running right, and TCC works.
>    I'll post a summary later today/tomorrow, but just had to babble/brag a
>  bit about it........
>  Bruce          When sharper Cone Shaped Hats are worn, it'll be done
>                      here first.........


From CEIJR at aol.com  Sat Jan  9 15:53:17 1999
From: CEIJR at aol.com (CEIJR at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:53:17 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread & CorvEight
Message-ID: <mailman.31940.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I also had a Valkyrie, with stout 327. Learned a lot about brake balance,
spring rates, etc., sometimes very suddenly. The Fiberfab supplied kit to mate
the 327 to the front of the '66 and later Corvair transaxle was either
manufactured by Ted Trevor's Crown Engineering, or copied from it directly.
The cover plate and front input shaft certainly looked the same. The '65
transaxle wasn't nearly as strong. Crown also provided a kit to put two more
spider gears in the differential carrier. I ran autocrosses with stock
carrier, and only blew one set of the two-spider setup - on a downshift, not
on acceleration.
Mid-engine Corvair conversions were generally better than rear, but the BOP
215 aluminum v-8, with reverse rotation, made a pretty good rear-engine
installation. Strangest Corvair conversion? A front-engine installation of a
12 cylinder Jaguar.
													Charlie Iliff


From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan  9 16:12:00 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:12:00 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31941.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

 I too have a few toasted convertors from "the switch"...
Lots of GM drag lizards (myself included) rely on the 
lockup switch for slight ET improvements.  If you rig a 
switch to ground the ALDL TCC line, the convertor locks
in any gear, but 1st.  It feels like an extra shift occurrs 
just after the trans goes into second.. Wierd feeling..
There is also an override that unlocks
the convetor if the brake is applied.  This mod should
not be done with engines of serious power levels and
stock style convertors.  These numbers are vague, but 
GNs in the low 12's or so, and Syphoons in approx high
12's tend to smoke the clutches.  Convertors sometimes last
a season, sometimes less.  There are some HD aftermarket 
lock-up convertors with multi-disc packs, that are turning 10's, 
but they are so tough that they are breaking input shafts on 
when lockup occurs after the 1-2 shift.  After you get down 
into the 9's the trans of choice appears to be the old reliable 
TH-400 3 spd with a non-lockup convertor.
Opinions are very mixed on the use of lock-ups for racing, and the 
above approximations my be off in someones opinion too.
I can honestly say, that when the clutch is working properly,
using the lock-up switch results in only 10-15 hundreths of a 
second in my mid 12 sec truck.  Kind of an expensive trade-off.
Cheers,
Mike V 


From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Sat Jan  9 17:09:21 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:09:21 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.31942.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> > A 350 won't fit in the rear of a Corvair, it's too long.  A friend
-> just > put a 4.3 in the rear, and it was a tight fit.  Yes, he built
-> a reverse > rotation engine for it.

> Never say never. It might not be too desireable to do, but I have
> seen it done. a 327 not a 350 not that that makes any dimensional
> difference...

 John De Armond, former moderator of the hotrod at dixie.com mailing list,
reminesced several times about a former coworker who had a *396* Chevy
rear-mounted in his Corvair.  It was his daily driver.
                              


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan  9 17:10:24 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:10:24 -0500
Subject: Memcal  ID
Message-ID: <mailman.31943.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Anyone show a listing for a 4892 BHRJ, er what application it's for.
How about a BDKC 4895?.  The BDKC should be around 93-4
Bruce



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sat Jan  9 17:13:18 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:13:18 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31944.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 08:52 AM 1/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Don't lock the TCC under full throttle!.
>The TCC is much softer than the other clutches in the tranny to prevent it
>from chattering.  I've gone thru 4 or so tranny overhauls in my 700R4.  Last
>guy said ditch the TCC, and you'll never break it again.  Well put 50,000
>on it, and it's still alive.  Cording to him what kills the 700's 4L60's is
>the
>TCC fllaking off and contaninating the fluid, and at a microscopic level,
>getting embedded in the other clutches, and then they fail so like the 3-4
>clutch problem is really caused by the TCC.  I will admit, that I'm hell on
>trannies,
>with all the calibration testing I was doing, but going to a non-lock up
>converter was the best tranny money I've spent.  If you don't drive hard
>often, or mileage is your primary concern ignore the above.
>  Also, comparing the 700 to the GN 200 isn't a good comapro in my book.
>The 200 as installed in a stock gn is light years ahead of stock 700, in
>my opinion.  Very early in the gn program, it was looked at to haul 4
>guys with misc hardware at WOT in pursuit situations.  The 700 was
>never really successful at that, from what I've seen/heard.
>  Bruce

Bruce,
The trans guy is dead wrong.
The GN 200-4R trans was a beefed version of the Auto OD trans slated to go
behind a normally aspirated 160HP V6...  Buick had to do some fancy dancing
to get turbohydramatic to allow them to put the trans behind the turbo 6.
I had a non-intercooled 85 Buick T-Type, only 200HP and fried 9
transmissions, including snapping off the input shaft on one at 80,000 miles.
It was never designed to be used for extended High HP functions... (racing!)
The 700-R4 wasn't used because it would have taken a new case with the
proper bellhousing bolt pattern... it was a chevy/corporate bolt pattern.
Of all the GN's racing, the guys are running lock up converters, and
locking them up at WOT until they get into the 11 second bracket with no
problems...But the trans they use is a MUCH modified version of the stock
GN trans.  After that they go to the non-lockup 9 inch converters for
higher stall speed and no lock up is used only because the 9" has no room
for a clutch to handle the HP.  The factory lockup converter is a piece of
junk that comes apart, but the aftermarket Torque converters with lockup
are lightyears ahead of the factory parts.  There are a few GN's with 700's
installed that used adapter plates and they are really happy with the
combo... No internal trans mods (except the governor weights/springs to get
the trans to shift at the proper points for the turbo-6) and they are
running in the 11's

The 700 trans is strong enough to be used behind some very healthy V8's
with lockup without any mods but a trans cooler (external).
The problems that arise is if the TCC solenoid becomes plugged.  then the
TCC slips and will destroy itself... this happens in any trans with TCC.

Not sure where you're located, but the best person to ask about the 200-4R
and the 700-R4 is Mike Kurtz at PMAC in Houston, TX.
He's had the 200-4R living in 9 second cars!... I had asked him about the
700 for my buick and he said it wasn't necessary unless I really got up in
the HP...
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sat Jan  9 17:28:02 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:28:02 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31945.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 07:49 AM 1/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>
>>Regarding the TCC, the only thing I'd be careful of is engaging the clutch
>>too soon and plowing the maximum engine torque through it. Most TCCs aren't
>>designed to handle the full torque of the stock engine let alone the torque
>>of a modified motor and may be damaged if locked too soon.
>>
>>I thought this was a problem for the GN crowd some time back where chips
>>were engaging the clutch to reduce driveline slippage (and thus get better
>>ETs/MPH) but the price was wasted converters after only a few runs...
>

Actually, the only ones having problems were the ones with a LOT of engine
mods and a bone stock trans/TC.

>
>Betcha they were not unlocking it during shifts---
>

Even the majority of them with transmissions that didn't break under WOT
lock weren't unlocking them at the shift...
They use a toggle switch from pin F of the ALDL connector to ground

Later,
Dave

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Sat Jan  9 17:51:20 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:51:20 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.31946.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Greg Hermann wrote:

> >They are also BSing on the plastic plate covers, too. I got some seized
> >and when I set a court date, they "elected not to prosecute" political
> >correctness is sure confusing...
> 
> And you didn't even have to wear high heels to court to get them to back off??
> 
No...really. When I went to change the appearance date I saw the PC charge
was not on the sheet, so I asked, they checked and then told me the
Tax-n-Spenders had decided "not to proceed" with the charge. Of course,
now the governemnt do-gooders are off righting wrongs elsewhere...




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan  9 18:00:26 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:00:26 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31947.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: David A. Cooley <n5xmt at bellsouth.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?


>At 08:52 AM 1/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>Don't lock the TCC under full throttle!.
>>The TCC is much softer than the other clutches in the tranny to prevent it
>>from chattering.  I've gone thru 4 or so tranny overhauls in my 700R4.
Last
>>guy said ditch the TCC, and you'll never break it again.  Well put 50,000
>>on it, and it's still alive.  Cording to him what kills the 700's 4L60's
is
>>the
>>TCC fllaking off and contaninating the fluid, and at a microscopic level,
>>getting embedded in the other clutches, and then they fail so like the 3-4
>>clutch problem is really caused by the TCC.  I will admit, that I'm hell
on
>>trannies,
>>with all the calibration testing I was doing, but going to a non-lock up
>>converter was the best tranny money I've spent.  If you don't drive hard
>>often, or mileage is your primary concern ignore the above.
>>  Also, comparing the 700 to the GN 200 isn't a good comapro in my book.
>>The 200 as installed in a stock gn is light years ahead of stock 700, in
>>my opinion.  Very early in the gn program, it was looked at to haul 4
>>guys with misc hardware at WOT in pursuit situations.  The 700 was
>>never really successful at that, from what I've seen/heard.
>>  Bruce
>
>Bruce,
>The trans guy is dead wrong.

Then explain why his tranny is working long after the others would have
failed.

>The GN 200-4R trans was a beefed version of the Auto OD trans slated to go
>behind a normally aspirated 160HP V6...  Buick had to do some fancy dancing
>to get turbohydramatic to allow them to put the trans behind the turbo 6.

Yes, and once done was right.  The 200R was designed to do a WOT
high gear shift, and the 700R took 5 years of deployment to get that.

>I had a non-intercooled 85 Buick T-Type, only 200HP and fried 9
>transmissions, including snapping off the input shaft on one at 80,000
miles.

I've never heard of a GN thou with that sort of failure rate.

>It was never designed to be used for extended High HP functions...
(racing!)
>The 700-R4 wasn't used because it would have taken a new case with the
>proper bellhousing bolt pattern... it was a chevy/corporate bolt pattern.
>Of all the GN's racing, the guys are running lock up converters, and
>locking them up at WOT until they get into the 11 second bracket with no
>problems...

And most are trailer queens at that stage.  Or of limited street use.
I'm talking street car, not race car/trailer queen stuff.

But the trans they use is a MUCH modified version of the stock
>GN trans.  After that they go to the non-lockup 9 inch converters for
>higher stall speed and no lock up is used only because the 9" has no room
>for a clutch to handle the HP.  The factory lockup converter is a piece of
>junk that comes apart, but the aftermarket Torque converters with lockup
>are lightyears ahead of the factory parts.  There are a few GN's with 700's
>installed that used adapter plates and they are really happy with the
>combo... No internal trans mods (except the governor weights/springs to get
>the trans to shift at the proper points for the turbo-6) and they are
>running in the 11's

An 11 sec GN with a stock other than govenor 700R, I would have to see, to
beleive.
>
>The 700 trans is strong enough to be used behind some very healthy V8's
>with lockup without any mods but a trans cooler (external).

Then why at 300HP did I start killing them so often, and then deleting
the TCC instantly it lived.

>The problems that arise is if the TCC solenoid becomes plugged.  then the
>TCC slips and will destroy itself... this happens in any trans with TCC.

I'd had mine out several times, and appart and never saw any
evidence of even an accumulation of anything there.

I still stand by what I said, to avoid failures, don't lock it at WOT, or
run a non TCC converter, period.
Bruce
>
>Not sure where you're located, but the best person to ask about the 200-4R
>and the 700-R4 is Mike Kurtz at PMAC in Houston, TX.
>He's had the 200-4R living in 9 second cars!... I had asked him about the
>700 for my buick and he said it wasn't necessary unless I really got up in
>the HP...
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be
approximated.
>===========================================================
>



From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Sat Jan  9 18:20:22 1999
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:20:22 -0500
Subject: Stepper Motors
Message-ID: <mailman.31948.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Any clues for sources of inexpensive 12VDC small stepper motors ( but bigger
than those used in hard drives).  I think I may have a need if they are
reasonable in power, speed and price.

Thanks.

The Luddites were RIGHT!!

Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Sat Jan  9 18:54:30 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:54:30 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound vs. dialectic
Message-ID: <mailman.31949.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  A salesperson at AutoZone tried to sell me some heat sink compound stating that it was a dialectic.  Of course I challenged the statement and he told me that he had used heat sink compound to insure good connections.
  Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!


IZCC #3426
 1982 280ZX Turbo GL
 1966 El Camino
 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle
 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine)
 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower
Clarence Wood
Software&Such...
clarencewood at centuryinter.net
Savannah, TN.


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan  9 19:01:36 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:01:36 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31950.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Mike wrote:

> Regarding the TCC, the only thing I'd be careful of is engaging the clutch
> too soon and plowing the maximum engine torque through it. Most TCCs aren't
> designed to handle the full torque of the stock engine let alone the torque
> of a modified motor and may be damaged if locked too soon.
> 
> I thought this was a problem for the GN crowd some time back where chips
> were engaging the clutch to reduce driveline slippage (and thus get better
> ETs/MPH) but the price was wasted converters after only a few runs...
> 

Mine stock already locks the TCC under WOT.   At 95 mph it locks the
TCC no matter what, and so far I have not burned my TCC clutches out.
I am also willing to buy one of those multiclutch converters that are
supposed to survive this sort of abuse.  I already have one of the
Viligantie convertors, but the stock programming locked the TCC at WOT
already, which I thought was supposed to destroy the convertors
anyway, and so far has not (over 140 1/4 runs, 116k on tranny).

				Roger



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan  9 19:07:15 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:07:15 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31951.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 1:23 AM
> Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
> 
> Don't lock the TCC under full throttle!.
> The TCC is much softer than the other clutches in the tranny to prevent it
> from chattering.  I've gone thru 4 or so tranny overhauls in my 700R4.  Last
> guy said ditch the TCC, and you'll never break it again.  Well put 50,000
> on it, and it's still alive.  Cording to him what kills the 700's 4L60's is
> the
> TCC fllaking off and contaninating the fluid, and at a microscopic level,
> getting embedded in the other clutches, and then they fail so like the 3-4
> clutch problem is really caused by the TCC.  I will admit, that I'm hell on
> trannies,
> with all the calibration testing I was doing, but going to a non-lock up
> converter was the best tranny money I've spent.  If you don't drive hard
> often, or mileage is your primary concern ignore the above.
>   Also, comparing the 700 to the GN 200 isn't a good comapro in my book.
> The 200 as installed in a stock gn is light years ahead of stock 700, in
> my opinion.  Very early in the gn program, it was looked at to haul 4
> guys with misc hardware at WOT in pursuit situations.  The 700 was
> never really successful at that, from what I've seen/heard.
>   Bruce

Do you have any idea what that "chattering" sounds like?  I have a
high perf aftermarket and it makes odd noises sometimes that might be
described as chattering.  Also the company that I got the converter
from makes multiclucth TCC to survive the lockup at WOT.  I wonder if
the aftermarket torque convertors use a much tougher clutch?  I have
had the aftermarket convertor for most of my cars life (70k or more).

				Roger



From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sat Jan  9 19:07:55 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:07:55 -0500
Subject: Stepper Motors
Message-ID: <mailman.31952.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Any clues for sources of inexpensive 12VDC small stepper motors ( but bigger
> than those used in hard drives).  I think I may have a need if they are
> reasonable in power, speed and price.

Printers, IAC motors from the junkyard, older tape drives,
some VCR head steppers are 12V (but only rotate in one
direction, step it the other way they just hum), any old
audio tape drive made by Otari, CDROM motors (5V, but feel
free to make a simple power supply), many of the surplus
companies, www.eio.com, Mouser Electronics, sometimes even
Digikey to name a few.

-- 

Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

http://www.xephic.dynip.com
1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental
1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
2000 Buick GTP (V6 twin turbo)


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan  9 19:12:50 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:12:50 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31953.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> I've been sorta lurking, reading the thread you have been talking about.
> Now a couple of unsolicited comments on things you might want to consider.
> 
> If you are going to lock up the converter in 3rd, or whatever, and leave it
> locked, you might want to consider whether there is some way to unlock it
> briefly during the upshift, if it does not do this already on its own. Both
> the tranny and the rear end will last a lot longer if it is unlocked during
> shifts.
> 

If I rig it to detect 2nd gear, lock a say 75, and then unlock in 3rd
below 105, it should unlock pretty quickly while it is shifting.  That
also worried me, especially when I noticed there was code to unlock
things when a 4-3,4-2 downshift was occuring.  I think though this is
only an issue above 95 mph (that is where it locks no matter what,
even at WOT).

The problem is my powerband is pretty high, so I want to unlock it to
speed it through the non-powerband area.  Then it more a question of
messing around to determine the optimal speed to lock it.

> There is not much question that you will get more net power to the wheels
> with the converter locked--if the engine is up into its power band. So
> mebbe you want to think about a shorter rear axle ratio and locking it up
> sooner rather than locking it up later. Of course, this might also require
> more tire so as to avoid sitting at the starting line enveloped in a cloud
> of smoke!


I have enough tire for job.  So that is not really an issue.

> 
> Regards, Greg
> 
> 
> 



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan  9 19:23:06 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:23:06 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31954.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> 
> Then why at 300HP did I start killing them so often, and then deleting
> the TCC instantly it lived.
>

I am running over 300 hp (365hp), and the stock computer has been
locking it at wot (95mph) for over a year, and at 300hp for a year
before that and I have not (yet) had any problems, but I do have an
aftermerket convertor that could potentitally be alot harder than any
of the stock convertors.
 
> >The problems that arise is if the TCC solenoid becomes plugged.  then the
> >TCC slips and will destroy itself... this happens in any trans with TCC.
> 
> I'd had mine out several times, and appart and never saw any
> evidence of even an accumulation of anything there.
> 
> I still stand by what I said, to avoid failures, don't lock it at WOT, or
> run a non TCC converter, period.

GM by default locks the 4th gen A4 at wot.  It is at a different
speed on the 93's than the 95+ cars but, I would hope that had
tested this sort of  thing enough to know how long it would last,
maybe I just got a good tranny, mine is past 115k on a high hp engine,
with only a shift kit and better higher slip torque convertor added.

				Roger



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan  9 19:31:30 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:31:30 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound vs. dialectic
Message-ID: <mailman.31955.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Clarence Wood wrote:

>   A salesperson at AutoZone tried to sell me some heat sink 
>   compound stating that it was a dialectic.  Of course I challenged
>  the statement and he told me that he had used heat sink compound to
>  insure good connections.
>   Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!

A diaelectric is an insulator.  It does not maintain a good
connection, that is the whole idea.  Using heat sink compound to
insure a good connection would be really bad.  Most heat sinks the
case is ground and you want it to have a good connection with ground,
dielectric is supposed to not maintain a good connection.  Of course
if most of the people he was selling it to are using it in the spark
plug boots I really don't see it making that much of a difference.  In
the books I have the insulating material in a capacitor is called a
dielectric so that would lead me to believe that dielectric grease was
non-conduction.

			Roger



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan  9 19:47:19 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:47:19 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31956.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
 Bruce Plecan wrote:
>> From: Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net>
>> Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?

>> Don't lock the TCC under full throttle!.
>> The TCC is much softer than the other clutches in the tranny to prevent
it
>> from chattering.  I've gone thru 4 or so tranny overhauls in my 700R4.
Last
>> guy said ditch the TCC, and you'll never break it again.  Well put 50,000
>> on it, and it's still alive.  Cording to him what kills the 700's 4L60's
is
>> the
>> TCC fllaking off and contaninating the fluid, and at a microscopic level,
>> getting embedded in the other clutches, and then they fail so like the
3-4
>> clutch problem is really caused by the TCC.  I will admit, that I'm hell
on
>> trannies,
>> with all the calibration testing I was doing, but going to a non-lock up
>> converter was the best tranny money I've spent.  If you don't drive hard
>> often, or mileage is your primary concern ignore the above.
>>   Also, comparing the 700 to the GN 200 isn't a good comapro in my book.
>> The 200 as installed in a stock gn is light years ahead of stock 700, in
>> my opinion.

Let me clarify a point here, while I might be wrong when I refer to GN
I'm addressing the 86-87 Intercooled ones.  I'll in the future to write GNX,
and then everone will be clearer about which ones I refer to.

  Very early in the gn program, it was looked at to haul 4
>> guys with misc hardware at WOT in pursuit situations.  The 700 was
>> never really successful at that, from what I've seen/heard.
>>   Bruce
>
>Do you have any idea what that "chattering" sounds like?

Momentary vibration, sometimes felt, sometimes heard.

 I have a
>high perf aftermarket and it makes odd noises sometimes that might be
>described as chattering.

If strong enough to live at 300 for even a while, it's got harder clutch
linings in it, and it will tend to chatter.

 Also the company that I got the converter
>from makes multiclucth TCC to survive the lockup at WOT.  I wonder if
>the aftermarket torque convertors use a much tougher clutch?

Yes, they have to.   Also, remember all these plates to add area,
probably are adding some weight.  Then also displacing fluid from the
converter, so it's subject to even more heat,  all in all I don't see
any really good answers, and like I said my is living in it's current form.
For the money, and time for replacing converters when they fail to get a .1,
I'd dig some weight out, and worry more about details in tuning.

 I have
>had the aftermarket convertor for most of my cars life (70k or more).

What kind of ET's are you running, and how do you plan on going?.

Bruce
>
> Roger
>



From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Sat Jan  9 19:49:46 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:49:46 -0500
Subject: Stepper Motors
Message-ID: <mailman.31957.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Old printers had some fairly large ones.

:peter




From chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca  Sat Jan  9 19:50:46 1999
From: chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca (Wen Yen Chan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:50:46 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31958.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello,
 
I got my can at Electrosonic. They have 5 locations in Canada. The Toronto
branch is at 1100 Gordon Baker Rd,  Willowdale, Ontario,  M2H 3B3. Their
phone number is 416-494-1555 or 416-494-1555 (fax). Shipping is usually
overnight. Here are the cat #s:

	P.P.E.  -   801B-125G
	Stab. 22A  - stabilant22a 

Stabilant 22a is manufactured by D.W. Electrochemicals Ltd. 97 Newkirk
Road North , Unit 3, Richmond Hill Ontario Canada, L4c3g4.

On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Clarence Wood wrote:

> Sounds great! Where is it sold?  Who makes it?  Maybe less expensive than backfire at full boost.  Do you have to buy in quantity?
> 
> At 01:23 PM 1/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> >Poly Phenyl Ether seems to work well. Stabilant 22A works even better but
> >is bloody expensive. I prefer Stabilant 22A as it is a non conductive
> >liquid which becomes conductive when there is arcing between the contacts.
> >I use Stabilant 22A at work on connectors which are worn out but a real
> >pain to replace (200 pin connectors between rows of surface mount parts
> >for example).
> >
> >Wen
> >
> 
> 



From chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca  Sat Jan  9 19:52:52 1999
From: chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca (Wen Yen Chan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:52:52 -0500
Subject: ECM connector cleaner
Message-ID: <mailman.31959.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello,

I forgot to mention that Electrosonic sells the stuff in 3/4 ounce bottles
for $30 cnd.

On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Clarence L.Snyder wrote:

> Clarence Wood wrote:
> > 
> > Sounds great! Where is it sold?  Who makes it?  Maybe less expensive than backfire at full boost.  Do you have to buy in quantity?
> > 
> 
> The Stab22 IS expensive. When I bought mine (about seven years ago) it
> was something like $47 US per ounce. came in a six ounce bottle if I
> remember for close to $300 including shipping.
> Works good on memory and processor sockets to avoid crashes - Sorry. I
> don.t have manufacturers info - the company I worked for then is history
> so I can't even check there. I have a couple ounces left.
> 



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan  9 20:01:48 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:01:48 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31960.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?

If I was locking the converter, then I'd do it just over the flash speed of
the converter.  As I understand things, the torque multiplication is about
over
or should be as you reach max torque, and that should be a tad higher than
the stall speed of the converter.  Course IMHO, if your gettting that
serious then
a 200R makes even more sense since you get a set of closer gears, and
then run a higher (numerically) rear gear.  Just wish there was an electric
valve body for the 200R sitting on the floor here.  Then I'd go to a PCM.
Just outta curiousity how did you figure your at 365HP?.
Bruce


 Bruce Plecan wrote:
>> Then why at 300HP did I start killing them so often, and then deleting
>> the TCC instantly it lived.
>
>I am running over 300 hp (365hp), and the stock computer has been
>locking it at wot (95mph) for over a year, and at 300hp for a year
>before that and I have not (yet) had any problems, but I do have an
>aftermerket convertor that could potentitally be alot harder than any
>of the stock convertors.
>
>> >The problems that arise is if the TCC solenoid becomes plugged.  then
the
>> >TCC slips and will destroy itself... this happens in any trans with TCC.
>>
>> I'd had mine out several times, and appart and never saw any
>> evidence of even an accumulation of anything there.
>>
>> I still stand by what I said, to avoid failures, don't lock it at WOT, or
>> run a non TCC converter, period.
>
>GM by default locks the 4th gen A4 at wot.  It is at a different
>speed on the 93's than the 95+ cars but, I would hope that had
>tested this sort of  thing enough to know how long it would last,
>maybe I just got a good tranny, mine is past 115k on a high hp engine,
>with only a shift kit and better higher slip torque convertor added.
> Roger




From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan  9 20:05:57 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:05:57 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31961.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> What kind of ET's are you running, and how do you plan on going?.
> 
> Bruce

I am running about 12.7 at 108 right now.  My best 1/8 is 8.2 at 87.  One
thing I have noticed is that right after my 2nd-3rd shift, at 95 my
TCC locks and drops me about 500 rpm (from 4500 where I have decent
power to 3900-4000) where I don't, and I never really get back to the
powerband anywhere after the 1/8.  I figure on at least getting some
gain from moving the lockup from 95 to higher speeds so that I stay
better in the powerband.  It accelerates much better at 4500
(unlocked) than it does at 4000 (locked).   I am hopeing if I get
things tuned correctly I can get things down to more like a 12.2 or so
with just tuning.  I am running kind of rich below 4500, and in both
1st and 2nd gears (930-950 mv in 1st), and I believe I can make some
large improvements in that.  If nothing makeing the TC not lock should
be fairly help in 3rd.  It would also be helpful to make it lock in
2nd and allow me to go 2-3mph faster in 2nd therefore putting me
at higher rpms in 3rd.

I have done everything to the engine that can be done right now, I can
only enlarge the exhaust and headers more (go to a 3.5" single pipe),
or add nitrous (and destroy a tranny/rearend real soon).  

				Roger



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan  9 20:11:08 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:11:08 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.31962.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
> 
> If I was locking the converter, then I'd do it just over the flash speed of
> the converter.  As I understand things, the torque multiplication is about
> over
> or should be as you reach max torque, and that should be a tad higher than
> the stall speed of the converter.  Course IMHO, if your gettting that
> serious then
> a 200R makes even more sense since you get a set of closer gears, and
> then run a higher (numerically) rear gear.  Just wish there was an electric
> valve body for the 200R sitting on the floor here.  Then I'd go to a PCM.
> Just outta curiousity how did you figure your at 365HP?.
> Bruce

I am not worried about the torque multiplication.  I am just happy if
the torque convertor is slipping enough to put me at a higher torque
position on the engine.  Probably before the TCC was locking up at
somewhere around peak torque, now my peak torque is higher, I guess I
should lock it around peak engine torque.

The 365 hp was figured by using a rear wheel dyno (actually two
different rear wheel dynos that both agreed with 5hp (corrected)
several months apart).  So that is 365 rwhp, I don't really know what
I have at the engine.  The stock manual tranny vehicle was supposed to
loose at least 33 hp, so I figure at A4 loses more like 45-50
(assuming the losses don't increase with HP, and probably there is a
component that increases with HP and another component that does not).
So engine is somewhere around 410-415 hp.

				Roger



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan  9 20:13:14 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:13:14 -0500
Subject: Stepper Motors
Message-ID: <mailman.31963.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Robert Harris wrote:
> 
> Any clues for sources of inexpensive 12VDC small stepper motors ( but bigger
> than those used in hard drives).  I think I may have a need if they are
> reasonable in power, speed and price.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> The Luddites were RIGHT!!
> 
> Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore
Try old printers - the bigger the better - and old photo-copiers and
laser printers.


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan  9 20:17:43 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:17:43 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound vs. dialectic
Message-ID: <mailman.31964.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence Wood wrote:
> 
>   A salesperson at AutoZone tried to sell me some heat sink compound stating that it was a dialectic.  Of course I challenged the statement and he told me that he had used heat sink compound to insure good connections.
>   Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!
> 
> IZCC #3426
>  1982 280ZX Turbo GL
>  1966 El Camino
>  1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle
>  1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine)
>  1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower
> Clarence Wood
> Software&Such...
> clarencewood at centuryinter.net
> Savannah, TN.
Most - possibly not all.


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan  9 20:22:56 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:22:56 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound vs. dialectic
Message-ID: <mailman.31965.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Roger Heflin wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Clarence Wood wrote:
> 
> >   A salesperson at AutoZone tried to sell me some heat sink
> >   compound stating that it was a dialectic.  Of course I challenged
> >  the statement and he told me that he had used heat sink compound to
> >  insure good connections.
> >   Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!
> 
> A diaelectric is an insulator.  It does not maintain a good
> connection, that is the whole idea.  Using heat sink compound to
> insure a good connection would be really bad.  Most heat sinks the
> case is ground and you want it to have a good connection with ground,
> dielectric is supposed to not maintain a good connection.  Of course
> if most of the people he was selling it to are using it in the spark
> plug boots I really don't see it making that much of a difference.  In
> the books I have the insulating material in a capacitor is called a
> dielectric so that would lead me to believe that dielectric grease was
> non-conduction.
> 
>                         Roger
What you want is electrically neutral. A conductor would cause shorts
between connectors in a plug. The ideal is an insulator that displaces
easily from pressure points - like connector fingers/pins, sealing air 
and moisture from the connectors. A good dialectric or heat sink
compound meets this requirement, unless you are working with very low
current/low voltage signals where specialized stuff like the Stab22 is
required.
Do NOT use RTV silicone, as it produced Acetic acid as it cures (hense
the vinegar smell) which will (or can) corrode connections.


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sat Jan  9 20:53:58 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:53:58 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound
Message-ID: <mailman.31966.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>A salesperson at AutoZone tried to sell me some heat sink
>compound stating that it was a dialectic.  Of course I challenged
>the statement and he told me that he had used heat sink compound to
>insure good connections.
>Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!

Most heat sink compounds are diaelectrics, which is an
electronic insulator, but a thermally conductive substance. 
Most components mounted on a heat sink either use the heat
sink as a thermal dissapation device, or, if the heat sink
is part of the circuit (in the case of much larger
electronic devices sometimes), the part is bolted to the
heat sink to ensure a reliable electronic connection as well
as thermal conductivity.

While in college, I worked for a small manufacturing company
in NJ, where I had the opportunity to assemble electronic
motor brakes.  The devices varying in size from a 120V 5A
capacity up to a 660V 120A capacity often relied on the heat
sinks (which were 1/4" aluminum "C" channel about 2' long,
8" wide, and 2" high on the larger models) as a primary
conductor.  What I found "interesting" is they were using 0
guage cable, yet holding the parts to the heat sinks with
severely undersized screws, which are severely narrower than
the wires they crimped and bolted to the heat sinks.  The
point of the story is they apparently had the same
impression as your autozone friend, that the heat sink
compound conducts electricity - the larger devices this
company just attempted to introduce into the market kept
failing due to the limited current capacity of the small
mounting screws between the part and the heat sink - since
the compound doesn't conduct electricity very well.

Aside from the "goo" type of heat sink compounds, there are
a few other choices.  THere are these little mica washers
typically used over the years underneath TO-3 transister
cases, acting as an insulator for electricity, but a
reasonable conductor of heat.  Not as good as the compounds,
but they are easier to work with.  Some manufacturers have
had problems with human-assembled products because some
products receive more heat-sink compound than others, and
depending on how far to the limits the unit was designed,
"Pop" goes the unit.  Radio Shack experienced this with
their home receivers back in the late 70's for a brief
period.


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan  9 21:02:08 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:02:08 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.31967.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

 Hi All--

A week or so ago, someone asked me about the whereabouts of Bore Tech. Got it.

And it is Bore Tech, not Boretek, as I wrote. And in Ohio, not PA as I
wrote. Oh Well! Boy, was I wrong!

Bore Tech
5977 Hutchinson Road
Batavia, Ohio, 45103
(513) 625-8374 (voice)
(513) 625-2836 (FAX)

Saw an ad in a pals copy of "Vintage Views", a vintage motorcycle racing
as'sn. newsletter. It is some sort of a proprietary carbide conversion
which they do to the surface of the cast iron. They mention thermal and
friction advantages as well as "incredible" bore life.

Regards, Greg




From JemisonR at tce.com  Sat Jan  9 21:10:55 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:10:55 -0500
Subject: Turbo header design
Message-ID: <mailman.31968.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clive,

You're absolutely correct.  But of all the 4 stroke 4 cyls I've owned these
two are the only ones to make use of the fact and run nultiple cyls off same
coil, bank for injectors, etc.  Sorry for stating something which at least
on the outset seems obvious.

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020
> [SMTP:clive at problem.tantech.com]
> Sent:	Saturday, January 09, 1999 1:41 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Turbo header design
> 
> > 
> > Fred,
> > 
> > Well, I've got 4 XS1100s and they definitely get a punch from the 180
> design
> > (95hp) stock.  And this was 20 years ago.  The uneven torque helps when
> the
> > surface doesn't allow an even transfer of power (like dirt tracks for
> > instance).  Then the uneven machines have a definite advantage as the
> lull
> > between strokes helps the tire 'grab' the track again.  
> 
> 
> all 4 cyl 4 strokes should be 180^ by default
> anything else would be just plain dumb
> 
> Clive 


From aris at exmail.panafon.gr  Sat Jan  9 22:17:24 1999
From: aris at exmail.panafon.gr (HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:17:24 -0500
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.31969.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Matt, Bruce & Robert thank you very much. I will use your interesting
inputs to begin assembling a viable solution to my DINO engine problem.
I guess I will start looking for the web sites of Allison, Crane
Camshafts, Holley & MSD.

Bruce, can you pls provide info about the Australian DIY kits you
mention in your reply. Concerning the diy_efi web page and project
332EFI, I am aware of it but at this instant I have too litlle time to
get involved so deeply!

Regards

Aris
 ----------
From: Matt Beaubien
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Date: 08 January 1999 23:28

Bruce,

> >The requirements are relatively simple:
> >1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick up
> >arranged to fire every 60 degrees.
>
> Crane Camshafts in Florida, USA, makes a universal optical ignition.
>
> >2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism.
> >3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard unit
> >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least
16
> >sites.
>
> Commercially MSD, Holley make said units,  kits are available from
> Australia, for a DIY.  Use the optics to trigger a oem ecm, and just
> use the ignition part of that.  If you want to do a total DIY visit
332EFI,
> you can get there off the diy_efi home page.

The Accel 49340 (IIRC) allows what the orginal poster is looking for. It
has adjustable vacuum/boost advance/retard as well as a N20 input. It
may
require a magnetic reluctor-type signal to function though.

I don't think MSD makes something similar (you can only adjust the slope
and max advance as far as I know), and I'm not too familiar with the
Holley stuff. The Accel piece is ~$150-$200.

Hope that helps.

Matt.




From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Sat Jan  9 22:21:08 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:21:08 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound vs. dielectric
Message-ID: <mailman.31970.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  I found a tube of silicone dielectric compound (notice I learned how to spell it!) at NAPA: ECHLIN ML-3 contains dimethylpolysiloxane, $10.95 for 1 oz.  

At 03:23 PM 1/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Roger Heflin wrote:
>> 
>> On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Clarence Wood wrote:
>> 
>> >   A salesperson at AutoZone tried to sell me some heat sink
>> >   compound stating that it was a dialectic.  Of course I challenged
>> >  the statement and he told me that he had used heat sink compound to
>> >  insure good connections.
>> >   Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!
>> 
>> A diaelectric is an insulator.  It does not maintain a good
>> connection, that is the whole idea.  Using heat sink compound to
>> insure a good connection would be really bad.  Most heat sinks the
>> case is ground and you want it to have a good connection with ground,
>> dielectric is supposed to not maintain a good connection.  Of course
>> if most of the people he was selling it to are using it in the spark
>> plug boots I really don't see it making that much of a difference.  In
>> the books I have the insulating material in a capacitor is called a
>> dielectric so that would lead me to believe that dielectric grease was
>> non-conduction.
>> 
>>                         Roger
>What you want is electrically neutral. A conductor would cause shorts
>between connectors in a plug. The ideal is an insulator that displaces
>easily from pressure points - like connector fingers/pins, sealing air 
>and moisture from the connectors. A good dialectric or heat sink
>compound meets this requirement, unless you are working with very low
>current/low voltage signals where specialized stuff like the Stab22 is
>required.
>Do NOT use RTV silicone, as it produced Acetic acid as it cures (hense
>the vinegar smell) which will (or can) corrode connections.
>
>


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jan  9 22:49:25 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:49:25 -0500
Subject: Motronic Interface ?
Message-ID: <mailman.31971.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Has anybody got an idea which protocal is ussed byt the bosch motronic
> 1.5/2.5 ECUs?
> The diagnostics port on my car looks nearly like the ALDL ports and not like
> OBD-II.
> 
> What is the equivalent to to Vauxhaul Astra (UK) {OPEL Astra (RSA)} in the
> rest of the
> world, maybe somebody has go some info on the computer, but published it
> under another
> name ?
> 
ISO-9141?
alex


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan  9 22:53:57 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:53:57 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound
Message-ID: <mailman.31972.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 9 Jan 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote:

> >A salesperson at AutoZone tried to sell me some heat sink
> >compound stating that it was a dialectic.  Of course I challenged
> >the statement and he told me that he had used heat sink compound to
> >insure good connections.
> >Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!
> 
> Most heat sink compounds are diaelectrics, which is an
> electronic insulator, but a thermally conductive substance. 
> Most components mounted on a heat sink either use the heat
> sink as a thermal dissapation device, or, if the heat sink
> is part of the circuit (in the case of much larger
> electronic devices sometimes), the part is bolted to the
> heat sink to ensure a reliable electronic connection as well
> as thermal conductivity.
> 

My only worry would be that are heat sink compount always going to
provide insulation?  Or are some conductive enough to cause problems?
At least the dielectrics are supposed to be insulators.  I always
assumed that heat sink compound was supposed to conduct heat, and
anything else it happened to do besides that really depended on what
was in the heat sink compound.  It would make me believe it may even
depend on the brand how it performed as a insulator.

			Roger



From rwhughe at hal-pc.org  Sat Jan  9 23:08:18 1999
From: rwhughe at hal-pc.org (Robert W. Hughes)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:08:18 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound vs. dialectic
Message-ID: <mailman.31973.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!
Heat sink compound is a silicone and a dielectric. It is intended to
fill the voids between two flat pieces of metal. It has a lower heat
transmissivity than direct metal-metal but much better than
metal-air-metal so proper usage is a very thin film so as to fill the
voids with minimal metal-metal separation. 

Being a dielectric, it is a non-conductor of electricity which is not
the same thing as heat.
-- 
Robert W. Hughes (Bob)
BackYard Engineering
Houston, Texas
rwhughe at hal-pc.org


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jan  9 23:11:07 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:11:07 -0500
Subject: Injector Duty Monitor
Message-ID: <mailman.31974.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If you want a PC-DOS meter, you can hook into the game, rs232 or
printer inputs.  This can give you .xxx837  ms resolution.
If interest I could write a quick free ware.
You would need some type of buffered input.
There is a free working logic analyzer for printer port at 
 http://www.comnet.ca/~logixell/Demo.htm
The $99 Rad Shack recording digital scope probe is also handy.
alex

> IF your doing anything serious ya need pulse width, with at least  20.x
> millisecond
> maybe higher (more that 20), and a resolution of at least .x millisecond.
> I'd perfer
> .xx, with possibly an adjustment for dampening the flickering of numbers.
>   Reading with a dwell meter is OK, and 1000x better than nothing but that's
> about it.
>   Bruce
> 


From trinity at golden.net  Sat Jan  9 23:22:13 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:22:13 -0500
Subject: 93 Z28 Disassembly - Found TPS voltage limits & default value
Message-ID: <mailman.31975.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

A quick correction I just noticed while reading my own post:

>
>As far as I can tell, the approximate (ignoring rounding) translation of the
>code between F46F and F48A is:
>
>    % = (CurrentAD - "ClosedAD") * 111 * 4 / 256
>
>or
>
>    % = (CurrentAD - "ClosedAD") / 1.73

This should read "% = (CurrentAD - "ClosedAD") * 1.73"

>
>where '%' ranges from 00h (0%) to FFh (100%).
>
>If the "closed" TPS is, say, 30h counts (0.94V), the 100% TPS reading should
>appear at about:
>
>    255 = Delta / 1.73

This should read "255 = Delta * 1.73"

>    Delta ~= 147 counts
>
>30h + 93h == C3h or about 3.82V 
>

I think the rest is okay. Sorry for the confusion.

--
Mike



From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Sat Jan  9 23:39:23 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:39:23 -0500
Subject: Uh-Oh, PICs
Message-ID: <mailman.31976.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>rauscher at icst.com wrote:
>> Sorry 'bout that, it was probably me that started refering to it as a
>> 'PIC'. If I may ask, what does PIC stand for? (Peripheral Interface
>> Controller?). And what is the difference between them and a u-controller?
>> (You can get technical, I can take it!)
>
>Just about everything you want to know is at http://www.microchip.com -
>a PIC is a RISC based microcontroller. Gotta get me some of that... ;)
>Looks like a lot of fun! Available with EEPROM or OTP, in lots of
>flavors. Digikey sells 'em pretty cheap too...
>
>-Andrew
>

VERY popular now thanks to the Playstation world & ahhhh 'backup copies!! of
games'

Ross Myers



From JemisonR at tce.com  Sat Jan  9 23:53:58 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:53:58 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound
Message-ID: <mailman.31977.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I can't really do better than those that have already described differences
between heat sink compounds and dielectric grease.  You can get dielectric
grease at NAPA for about $5 USD.  

Rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Frederic Breitwieser [SMTP:frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com]
> Sent:	Saturday, January 09, 1999 3:49 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Heat sink compound
> 
> >A salesperson at AutoZone tried to sell me some heat sink
> >compound stating that it was a dialectic.  Of course I challenged
> >the statement and he told me that he had used heat sink compound to
> >insure good connections.
> >Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!
> 
> Most heat sink compounds are diaelectrics, which is an
> electronic insulator, but a thermally conductive substance. 
> Most components mounted on a heat sink either use the heat
> sink as a thermal dissapation device, or, if the heat sink
> is part of the circuit (in the case of much larger
> electronic devices sometimes), the part is bolted to the
> heat sink to ensure a reliable electronic connection as well
> as thermal conductivity.
> 
> While in college, I worked for a small manufacturing company
> in NJ, where I had the opportunity to assemble electronic
> motor brakes.  The devices varying in size from a 120V 5A
> capacity up to a 660V 120A capacity often relied on the heat
> sinks (which were 1/4" aluminum "C" channel about 2' long,
> 8" wide, and 2" high on the larger models) as a primary
> conductor.  What I found "interesting" is they were using 0
> guage cable, yet holding the parts to the heat sinks with
> severely undersized screws, which are severely narrower than
> the wires they crimped and bolted to the heat sinks.  The
> point of the story is they apparently had the same
> impression as your autozone friend, that the heat sink
> compound conducts electricity - the larger devices this
> company just attempted to introduce into the market kept
> failing due to the limited current capacity of the small
> mounting screws between the part and the heat sink - since
> the compound doesn't conduct electricity very well.
> 
> Aside from the "goo" type of heat sink compounds, there are
> a few other choices.  THere are these little mica washers
> typically used over the years underneath TO-3 transister
> cases, acting as an insulator for electricity, but a
> reasonable conductor of heat.  Not as good as the compounds,
> but they are easier to work with.  Some manufacturers have
> had problems with human-assembled products because some
> products receive more heat-sink compound than others, and
> depending on how far to the limits the unit was designed,
> "Pop" goes the unit.  Radio Shack experienced this with
> their home receivers back in the late 70's for a brief
> period.


From btisdale at cybersol.com  Sun Jan 10 00:22:18 1999
From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:22:18 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread & CorvEight
Message-ID: <mailman.31978.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Also learned lots about Ackerman geometry in the steering, transmission linkages, defrosters, wind up windows, airflow thru radiators (put mine in the rear) also.  Fun.

Barry

At 10:52 AM 1/9/99 EST, you wrote:
>I also had a Valkyrie, with stout 327. Learned a lot about brake balance,
>spring rates, etc., sometimes very suddenly.


From John.Andrian at usa.net  Sun Jan 10 02:43:56 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:43:56 -0500
Subject: Wide Ratio Bosch O2
Message-ID: <mailman.31979.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> Would anyone happen to know of an application, or part number
> for a Bosch wide ratio O2 sensor.
>   Other than NGK (NGT), and Bosch anyone know of any others?.
> Not leaded resistant like the LSM-11, wide ratio.
> Thanks in advance
> Bruce
I found a bosch part number somewhere in my notes for wide ratio O2
sensor but I am not sure if it is the lsm-11 or not. part nu:0258 002.
You could also contact Ole Buhl Racing at www.obr.dk, they make some
very high spec ecus that can be self mapped with wide ratio O2 sensors.
They also have a box that drives the sensor and gives a voltage output
to be interfaced with the ecu or an instrument. I dont know which make
sensors they use.
There is also one company that I came up browsing wich makes the ceramic
elements for wide ratio O2 sensors(not ngk/ntk). If you do a search with
keywords:ceramic,uego,manufacturer,wide band,oxygen,sensor etc. you
probably will find them.
Why are you searching for another sensor?(just a little curious)
Do you know the SAE paper number for the NTK uego sensor?
Thanks in advance.
John Andrianakis.




From db at vianet.net.au  Sun Jan 10 02:47:59 1999
From: db at vianet.net.au (Darryn Watson)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:47:59 -0500
Subject: Aussie GM 3.8 V6 coil packs
Message-ID: <mailman.31980.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:34:08 +0800, you wrote:

>Hi All 
>just a short question for the Aussie list members out there, I've started to get my feet wet with the EFI 332 project and was wondering if any one out there could shed some light on the triple coil packs used in these engines.  
>
>What I would like to know is 
>Is it possible to utilise only two of the three coils in this unit??
>
>The reason for my question is that I would like to use one on a 4 cylinder engine, I would also then have a spare coil pack for a backup.

Thanks very much every one I will find one way around it!!!

 I'll probabaly go hunting the wrecking yards for either of the GM
ones

Darryn


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 10 03:14:04 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:14:04 -0500
Subject: Wide Ratio Bosch O2
Message-ID: <mailman.31981.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: John Andrianakis <John.Andrian at usa.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: Wide Ratio Bosch O2


>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>> 
>> Would anyone happen to know of an application, or part number
>> for a Bosch wide ratio O2 sensor.
>>   Other than NGK (NGT), and Bosch anyone know of any others?.
>> Not leaded resistant like the LSM-11, wide ratio.
>> Thanks in advance
>> Bruce
>I found a bosch part number somewhere in my notes for wide ratio O2
>sensor but I am not sure if it is the lsm-11 or not. part nu:0258 002.
>You could also contact Ole Buhl Racing at www.obr.dk, they make some
>very high spec ecus that can be self mapped with wide ratio O2 sensors.
>They also have a box that drives the sensor and gives a voltage output
>to be interfaced with the ecu or an instrument. I dont know which make
>sensors they use.
>There is also one company that I came up browsing wich makes the ceramic
>elements for wide ratio O2 sensors(not ngk/ntk). If you do a search with
>keywords:ceramic,uego,manufacturer,wide band,oxygen,sensor etc. you
>probably will find them.
>Why are you searching for another sensor?(just a little curious)

Heard a rumor, and want to investigate.  Being a rumor, I'm not
comfortable quoting it.

>Do you know the SAE paper number for the NTK uego sensor?

I think you want the 920234

>Thanks in advance.
>John Andrianakis.
>
>



From e.schumacher at worldnet.att.net  Sun Jan 10 03:17:21 1999
From: e.schumacher at worldnet.att.net (Eric Schumacher)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:17:21 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound
Message-ID: <mailman.31982.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi 
Dielectric grease is a silicone compound manufactured by Dow Corning.
Thirty or fourty years ago it was used to promote heat transfer between
semiconductors and heat sinks. Heat sink compound is often the same grease
loaded with alumina or some such thermally conductive oxide. Niether are
electricaly conductive but dielectric grease is eaisly displaced.
Dielectric grease is excellent for use on electrical connections thay may
get damp as it is very impervious to water. Heat sink compund, since it is
loaded with ceramic should never be used in these applications.  If you
really want high conductivity both heat and electrical, silver loaded
dielectric grease is available, electricians use it between bus bars when
they bolt two together.
Lotsa Luck Eric
85 GTI with VR6 Power


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 10 04:31:20 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:31:20 -0500
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.31983.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 <aris at exmail.panafon.gr>
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 5:29 PM
Subject: Electronic timing advance


>Matt, Bruce & Robert thank you very much. I will use your interesting
>inputs to begin assembling a viable solution to my DINO engine problem.
>I guess I will start looking for the web sites of Allison, Crane
>Camshafts, Holley & MSD.
>
>Bruce, can you pls provide info about the Australian DIY kits you
>mention in your reply.

Company names as I recall were Jaycar, and Dick Smith Electronics.
I thought I had more info at hand, but had a HDD crash and lost more
than I thought.  May also, be a Mark Williams Electronics, maybe some from
au has a fresher memory of them or their sites.
Bruce

Concerning the diy_efi web page and project
>332EFI, I am aware of it but at this instant I have too litlle time to
>get involved so deeply!
>
>Regards
>
>Aris
> ----------
>From: Matt Beaubien
>To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Electronic timing advance
>Date: 08 January 1999 23:28
>
>Bruce,
>
>> >The requirements are relatively simple:
>> >1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick up
>> >arranged to fire every 60 degrees.
>>
>> Crane Camshafts in Florida, USA, makes a universal optical ignition.
>>
>> >2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism.
>> >3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard unit
>> >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least
>16
>> >sites.
>>
>> Commercially MSD, Holley make said units,  kits are available from
>> Australia, for a DIY.  Use the optics to trigger a oem ecm, and just
>> use the ignition part of that.  If you want to do a total DIY visit
>332EFI,
>> you can get there off the diy_efi home page.
>
>The Accel 49340 (IIRC) allows what the orginal poster is looking for. It
>has adjustable vacuum/boost advance/retard as well as a N20 input. It
>may
>require a magnetic reluctor-type signal to function though.
>
>I don't think MSD makes something similar (you can only adjust the slope
>and max advance as far as I know), and I'm not too familiar with the
>Holley stuff. The Accel piece is ~$150-$200.
>
>Hope that helps.
>
>Matt.
>
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 10 04:44:14 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:44:14 -0500
Subject: 2 Bar MAP V-8
Message-ID: <mailman.31984.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

To run the 2 bar (v-8) conversion (in a 1227730 ecm), this is what I've
found to be true (or should I say, is a summary, of what other knowledgable
folks shared with me):
  Use the normal 730 memcal, since it has the right knock filtering,
limp home calibrations.  The syty calibration is 128K long, where
the 730 F-Body cal is 256K long, you have to fill the first half of the
prom with zeros.  (Be sure you have the matching knock sensor).
One BCC that fits this discription is the AUJP.
  Since the PID is 1/2 as long, there might be a slightly rougher idle,
ie similiar to the 86-89 calibrations that are 128K long.  The last
sentence is for the EE types.
  Cylinder select at 0009 needs changed to 00.
  If your running a speedometer cable VSS then use C-6 for the VSS
input.
  If running a magnetic impulse (stock 90-92) then use B-9, and B-10,
and change 0334 from 2D to 6D.
  Move the TCC from F-6 to F-4.
If running Diacom a vin#   1GDCT14ZOM 0000000 will allow you
to monitor the ecm.
  The rest of the pinouts seem to be the same.  I didn't worry about the
air management valves, but the rad fan pin is the same, as well as the EGR
control.
  It's your responsibility to check the legality of such modifications,
if you want to use this information on a street vehicle, this is for
educational, and off road use.   I'm not an elec engineer or software
expert, and the above appears to be true in extensive bench testing.
Cheers
Bruce




From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Sun Jan 10 04:55:12 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:55:12 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.31985.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:02:03 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
<snip>
>Saw an ad in a pals copy of "Vintage Views", a vintage motorcycle racing
>as'sn. newsletter. It is some sort of a proprietary carbide conversion
>which they do to the surface of the cast iron. They mention thermal and
>friction advantages as well as "incredible" bore life.
>
>Regards, Greg

Getting rings to seat must be "incredible", too :)

Would you use cast iron, chrome, or molybdenum rings with a carbide bore?


Ray Drouillard

___________________________________________________________________
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From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Sun Jan 10 04:55:26 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:55:26 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound vs. dialectic
Message-ID: <mailman.31986.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Stick two probes of an ohmmeter into a glob of the stuff and find out :)

I believe that it is, but I always use insulation when mounting a
component that needs to be insulated from the heat sink.

Ray


On Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:55:54 -0600 Clarence Wood
<clarencewood at centuryinter.net> writes:
>  A salesperson at AutoZone tried to sell me some heat sink compound 
>stating that it was a dialectic.  Of course I challenged the statement 
>and he told me that he had used heat sink compound to insure good 
>connections.
>  Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!
>
>
>IZCC #3426
> 1982 280ZX Turbo GL
> 1966 El Camino
> 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle
> 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine)
> 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower
>Clarence Wood
>Software&Such...
>clarencewood at centuryinter.net
>Savannah, TN.
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 10 04:55:59 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:55:59 -0500
Subject: AUJP C/L+Learn enables
Message-ID: <mailman.31987.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On the AUJP, the Closed Loop, and Learn Temp enables appear to
be at 0350, and 0489.  The stock temps of 45dC work out to be 71h.
Cheers
Bruce      




From shannen at grolen.com  Sun Jan 10 04:56:31 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:56:31 -0500
Subject: Memcal  ID
Message-ID: <mailman.31988.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Anyone show a listing for a 4892 BHRJ, er what application it's for.
> How about a BDKC 4895?.  The BDKC should be around 93-4
> Bruce
I show a BDKC 6859 1993 G van 5.7, 4l60e, 3.42 ratio
Also, BHRJ 5896 fits 1994 4.3l W (Astro/S10 Vortech)

May be like a couple I have.  Is there any part # on either chip?
Shannen



From shannen at grolen.com  Sun Jan 10 05:28:46 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:28:46 -0500
Subject: 749 calibration in a 730
Message-ID: <mailman.31989.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Well, after finding some faulty hardware, I got the syclone calibration
> to run in a 730 ecm.  Doing so moved some pinouts about, for TCC,
> and VSS, but it is seen by diacom, and things look ok.  I haven't
> attempted to make this a legal calibration, so I'm ignoring the
> air management valves, and EGR for now, but all the engine stuff
> looks to be running right, and TCC works.
>   I'll post a summary later today/tomorrow, but just had to babble/brag a
> bit about it........
> Bruce          When sharper Cone Shaped Hats are worn, it'll be done
>                     here first.........
I'm looking forward to it.
Shannen



From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sun Jan 10 05:44:42 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:44:42 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound vs. dialectic
Message-ID: <mailman.31990.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> fill the voids between two flat pieces of metal. It has a lower heat
> transmissivity than direct metal-metal but much better than

Best explaination yet, good show Bob.  Metal is like Glass -
pourous!

This is the same reason why Rain-X works so well on
windshields!


-- 
Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

http://www.xephic.dynip.com
1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)


From gem at alphalink.com.au  Sun Jan 10 06:28:19 1999
From: gem at alphalink.com.au (paul)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:28:19 -0500
Subject: Aussie GM 3.8 V6 coil packs
Message-ID: <mailman.31991.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi There,
             This is my first message to this group so I hope I can help.We
use "double coil" coil packs on some of our family 11 GM engines.I think
Daewoo put them in their cars .I think it was in the 2.0lt espero.They need
a seven segment disc signal into the coil pack. good luck.     
PAUL. 

----------
> From: Darryn Watson <db at vianet.net.au>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Aussie GM 3.8 V6 coil packs
> Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 1:44 PM
> 
> On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:34:08 +0800, you wrote:
> 
> >Hi All 
> >just a short question for the Aussie list members out there, I've
started to get my feet wet with the EFI 332 project and was wondering if
any one out there could shed some light on the triple coil packs used in
these engines.  
> >
> >What I would like to know is 
> >Is it possible to utilise only two of the three coils in this unit??
> >
> >The reason for my question is that I would like to use one on a 4
cylinder engine, I would also then have a spare coil pack for a backup.
> 
> Thanks very much every one I will find one way around it!!!
> 
>  I'll probabaly go hunting the wrecking yards for either of the GM
> ones
> 
> Darryn


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Sun Jan 10 09:55:39 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 04:55:39 -0500
Subject: AUJP C/L+Learn enables
Message-ID: <mailman.31992.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi Bruce

Need anything for the AUJP. I did a bit once but
don't use it right now. Got VE tables, pe and such.

:peter




From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 10 15:22:19 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:22:19 -0500
Subject: Memcal  ID
Message-ID: <mailman.31993.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
Subject: Re: Memcal ID


>> Anyone show a listing for a 4892 BHRJ, er what application it's for.
>> How about a BDKC 4895?.  The BDKC should be around 93-4
>> Bruce
>I show a BDKC 6859 1993 G van 5.7, 4l60e, 3.42 ratio
>Also, BHRJ 5896 fits 1994 4.3l W (Astro/S10 Vortech)
>May be like a couple I have.  Is there any part # on either chip?
>Shannen

Dumb Bruce strikes again, The lettering was smeared, but using
glasses, and a magnifing glass those numbers/BCC's are right.
thanks
Bruce   I quess all 8 of us need new prescriptions, for glasses,
             and probably meds..
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 10 16:22:19 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:22:19 -0500
Subject: 730 Malf Flags
Message-ID: <mailman.31994.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is basically an extension of Programming 101, so if it's
confusing reading thru 101 will make it "readable".
This is for the 730 ecm, AUJP calibration.
0249
             12  13  14  15      16  21  22  23
024A
             24  25  26  31      32  33  34  35
024B  
             36  41  42  43      44  45  46  51
024C
             Continuation of 50 series malfunction codes
024D
             Appears to be even several more malfunction codes.

Again this is from brute force cracking, and is for educational 
purposes.  I'm not an EE, and the above appears correct to
me.  
Bruce      



From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sun Jan 10 16:49:01 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:49:01 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound
Message-ID: <mailman.31995.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> My only worry would be that are heat sink compount always going to
> provide insulation?  Or are some conductive enough to cause problems?

Again, it depends on the product.  When you purchase it, as
others suggested, you should stick your ohmmeter leads into
a dab of it to see its conductivity.  The way I design
things is to always bolt, crew or clamp the device to the
heat sink, therefore the heat sink is part of the circuit.

> anything else it happened to do besides that really depended on what
> was in the heat sink compound.  It would make me believe it may even

YOu're correct on this... different compounds give
better/worse heat and better/worse electrical properties
based on its make-up.

-- 
Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

http://www.xephic.dynip.com
1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan 10 17:00:15 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:00:15 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.31996.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:02:03 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
><snip>
>>Saw an ad in a pals copy of "Vintage Views", a vintage motorcycle racing
>>as'sn. newsletter. It is some sort of a proprietary carbide conversion
>>which they do to the surface of the cast iron. They mention thermal and
>>friction advantages as well as "incredible" bore life.
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>
>Getting rings to seat must be "incredible", too :)
>
>Would you use cast iron, chrome, or molybdenum rings with a carbide bore?
>
>
>Ray Drouillard

I talked to Bore Tech about a year ago, Ray. They want the bores finished
to their final size before you send them to them, and they want them
POLISHED to about an 8 u-inch finish--no cross hatch pattern stuff!!!
Obviously, this is a whole different ballgame from what we are used to!
Chrome rings are supposed to be the ticket--clearly they are the hardest
and longest wearing. My plan is to use forged pistons (from 2618 Al) and
have them hard anodized about .002" thick, so as to get both high strength
and excellent wear resistance (as well as the thermal advantages of the
hard anodizing). Not common knowlege, but Cummins hard anodizes at least
part of the pistons in some of their high horsepower 855's!

Bore Tech claims that the rings will seat OK with conventional use, my plan
is to come up a stray cylinder liner (from something else) which can be
finished to the correct bore, and also carbide treated.  Then use the liner
and an old piston (or make something) as a lap and a holder for the new
rings, and hand lap the rings to pre-seat them prior to assembly of the
motor.

Regards, Greg
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan 10 17:19:50 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:19:50 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.31997.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 10:00 AM 1/10/99 -0700, you wrote:

>
>Bore Tech claims that the rings will seat OK with conventional use, my plan
>is to come up a stray cylinder liner (from something else) which can be
>finished to the correct bore, and also carbide treated.  Then use the liner
>and an old piston (or make something) as a lap and a holder for the new
>rings, and hand lap the rings to pre-seat them prior to assembly of the
>motor.

I was always under the impression that the rings had to be seated to the
cyl they'd be working in, because the polish/hone patterns would be
different between bores.  The rings may seat well in the "spare" liner, but
then would have to re-seat all over again in the cyl they were destined
for...  I'd think that would cause excessive wear and increase end gaps.

Later,
Dave

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From johnhess at cris.com  Sun Jan 10 17:47:21 1999
From: johnhess at cris.com (John Hess)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:47:21 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound vs. dialectic
Message-ID: <mailman.31998.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

dialectic \ A process of reasoning based on the clash of one idea with its
opposite leading to a resolution of these ideas in the form of a truer or
more comprehensive concept.  (The new Britannica Webster Dictionary
Reference Guide).

I don't think so!

Could you possibly mean dielectric?  If so, the answer yes, no, maybe,
sometimes, always, and never;  but, not necessarily in that order.  There
are both conductive and non-conductive (dielectric) varieties of heat sink
compounds.


-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence Wood <clarencewood at centuryinter.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 1:20 PM
Subject: Heat sink compound vs. dialectic


>  A salesperson at AutoZone tried to sell me some heat sink compound
stating that it was a dialectic.  Of course I challenged the statement and
he told me that he had used heat sink compound to insure good connections.
>  Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!
>
>
>IZCC #3426
> 1982 280ZX Turbo GL
> 1966 El Camino
> 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle
> 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine)
> 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower
>Clarence Wood
>Software&Such...
>clarencewood at centuryinter.net
>Savannah, TN.
>



From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Sun Jan 10 18:32:40 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:32:40 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.31999.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

It would be interesting to take cylinder leakdown measurements at a regular interval and determine ring seating/wear rates.

----------
From: 	Greg Hermann[SMTP:bearbvd at sni.net]
Sent: 	January 10, 1999 10:00 AM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)

>On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:02:03 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
><snip>
>>Saw an ad in a pals copy of "Vintage Views", a vintage motorcycle racing
>>as'sn. newsletter. It is some sort of a proprietary carbide conversion
>>which they do to the surface of the cast iron. They mention thermal and
>>friction advantages as well as "incredible" bore life.
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>
>Getting rings to seat must be "incredible", too :)
>
>Would you use cast iron, chrome, or molybdenum rings with a carbide bore?
>
>
>Ray Drouillard

I talked to Bore Tech about a year ago, Ray. They want the bores finished
to their final size before you send them to them, and they want them
POLISHED to about an 8 u-inch finish--no cross hatch pattern stuff!!!
Obviously, this is a whole different ballgame from what we are used to!
Chrome rings are supposed to be the ticket--clearly they are the hardest
and longest wearing. My plan is to use forged pistons (from 2618 Al) and
have them hard anodized about .002" thick, so as to get both high strength
and excellent wear resistance (as well as the thermal advantages of the
hard anodizing). Not common knowlege, but Cummins hard anodizes at least
part of the pistons in some of their high horsepower 855's!

Bore Tech claims that the rings will seat OK with conventional use, my plan
is to come up a stray cylinder liner (from something else) which can be
finished to the correct bore, and also carbide treated.  Then use the liner
and an old piston (or make something) as a lap and a holder for the new
rings, and hand lap the rings to pre-seat them prior to assembly of the
motor.

Regards, Greg
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




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end



From mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net  Sun Jan 10 19:05:16 1999
From: mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:05:16 -0500
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg
Message-ID: <mailman.32000.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello,

I am thinking of modifying a stock Bosch 233 regulator to 
increase fuel pressure at a 2:1 ratio.  Since I am not an 
engineer, I would like to run this by some of you who are.

I am making the assumption that by increasing the diaphram 
surface area inside the regulator, I can increase the regulator's 
rate.  Is this correct?  So if I double the surface area, I should 
get a 2:1 rate.

If so, I have a friend with a mill who can make new billet tops, 
but where can I find suitable diaphram material?

I know there are other options such as an FMU or PWM Bosch 
regulators, but I want to do my own thing first, at minimal 
cost of course.

PS: I've searched the archives for pertinent info, but it's kinda 
tough without a boolean 'and' search option. :(

Thanks,
-Mike
==========================================
Mike Pitts
Delray Beach, FL
mpitts at emi.net
==========================================




From rbraun at enter.net  Sun Jan 10 19:45:50 1999
From: rbraun at enter.net (Randy)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:45:50 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound
Message-ID: <mailman.32001.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

OK, so after reading this thread I got that most HSC are insulators 
except the stuff that contains silver, Where do you get this stuff?, 
So on the CS-130 alternators the neg side of the diode pack is 
mounted to the case with HSC and has no screws to ground it. The 
screws are all insulated.  On my last rebuild I used T & B"copper 
kote" on the ends where the positive bolt goes thru it and on the 
other end where I added an 8-32 nut and bolt to hold it tight and 
ground it. the middle I put standard HSC.  Maybe the silver stuff 
should be used on the whole thing?    Looked like a major flaw in 
the design to me, as I have fixed about four of these all with dead 
neg side diodes.




Randy Braun
'77 C-10 pick-up, DFI-Tuned Port, 350
'82 Firebird, DFI, ZZ3
'91 GTA, Stock


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 10 19:58:22 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:58:22 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32002.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Piccioni <mpiccioni at attcanada.net>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)


>It would be interesting to take cylinder leakdown measurements at a regular
interval and determine ring seating/wear rates.
>
>----------
>From: Greg Hermann[SMTP:bearbvd at sni.net]
>Sent: January 10, 1999 10:00 AM
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Re: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
>
>>On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:02:03 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
>><snip>
>>>Saw an ad in a pals copy of "Vintage Views", a vintage motorcycle racing
>>>as'sn. newsletter. It is some sort of a proprietary carbide conversion
>>>which they do to the surface of the cast iron. They mention thermal and
>>>friction advantages as well as "incredible" bore life.
>>>
>>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>Getting rings to seat must be "incredible", too :)
>>
>>Would you use cast iron, chrome, or molybdenum rings with a carbide bore?
>>
>>
>>Ray Drouillard
>
>I talked to Bore Tech about a year ago, Ray. They want the bores finished
>to their final size before you send them to them, and they want them
>POLISHED to about an 8 u-inch finish--no cross hatch pattern stuff!!!
>Obviously, this is a whole different ballgame from what we are used to!
>Chrome rings are supposed to be the ticket--clearly they are the hardest
>and longest wearing. My plan is to use forged pistons (from 2618 Al) and
>have them hard anodized about .002" thick, so as to get both high strength
>and excellent wear resistance (as well as the thermal advantages of the
>hard anodizing). Not common knowlege, but Cummins hard anodizes at least
>part of the pistons in some of their high horsepower 855's!
>
>Bore Tech claims that the rings will seat OK with conventional use, my plan
>is to come up a stray cylinder liner (from something else) which can be
>finished to the correct bore, and also carbide treated.  Then use the liner
>and an old piston (or make something) as a lap and a holder for the new
>rings, and hand lap the rings to pre-seat them prior to assembly of the
>motor.

I'd think prelapping them, and then plating would be the answer.
That way any machining errors are corrected, first, and then the
plating would be uniform, in thickness.  Anyone know for sure if the
final machining on rings for the OD is grinding?????.
Bruce
>
>Regards, Greg
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
>
>
>



From mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net  Sun Jan 10 19:58:27 1999
From: mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:58:27 -0500
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg - #2
Message-ID: <mailman.32003.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Just cut my regulator open.  Could I change the spring 
to a lighter spring with a faster rate to alter the regulator's 
rate rather than messing with the diaphram size?

TIA,
-Mike
==========================================
Mike Pitts
Delray Beach, FL
mpitts at emi.net
==========================================




From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 10 20:26:40 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:26:40 -0500
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg - #2
Message-ID: <mailman.32004.1369893291.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pitts <mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 3:14 PM
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg - #2


>
>Just cut my regulator open.  Could I change the spring 
>to a lighter spring with a faster rate to alter the regulator's 
>rate rather than messing with the diaphram size?

Of the couple FMU type regulators I've seen pix of they all
use larger than gm style diaphams, and in the kits they
mention springs, and an orfice for changing rates.
Bruce
>
>TIA,
>-Mike
>==========================================
>Mike Pitts
>Delray Beach, FL
>mpitts at emi.net
>==========================================
>
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan 10 20:33:23 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:33:23 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32005.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>At 10:00 AM 1/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>
>>Bore Tech claims that the rings will seat OK with conventional use, my plan
>>is to come up a stray cylinder liner (from something else) which can be
>>finished to the correct bore, and also carbide treated.  Then use the liner
>>and an old piston (or make something) as a lap and a holder for the new
>>rings, and hand lap the rings to pre-seat them prior to assembly of the
>>motor.
>
>I was always under the impression that the rings had to be seated to the
>cyl they'd be working in, because the polish/hone patterns would be
>different between bores.  The rings may seat well in the "spare" liner, but
>then would have to re-seat all over again in the cyl they were destined
>for...  I'd think that would cause excessive wear and increase end gaps.

Not really so when dealing with an 8 u inch polished finish. If the bores
are the same diameter (within a couple of ten thousandths, and all
straight, no prob. I thought about lapping each set of rings to its own
hole, but decided that the extra block clean-up was a nightmare (not to
mention stray lapping compound) waiting to happen. (Lapping compound in
this case would be more like jewelers' rouge than what you are used to
thinking of for lapping valves. WAY finer.) Lots of serious HP boat motors
are pre-seated this way. It works. Also saves a LOT of break in debris from
floating around insside the engine.

Regards, Greg
>
>Later,
>Dave
>
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>===========================================================




From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Sun Jan 10 20:41:16 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:41:16 -0500
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg
Message-ID: <mailman.32006.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi Mike and all

Well you are right in a way.. Pressure ( MAP ) X area = force
This is balanced by spring force.. Displacement (x) = Force/ spring
constant.
The displacement (x) in a linear valve gives bypass flow.
Of course the bypass valve function is not linear.
Maybe one of the process guys can carry this further.

Point is that you should be able to achieve the same
results by using a different spring constant.

gl:peter




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan 10 20:45:47 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:45:47 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32007.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 01:33 PM 1/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Not really so when dealing with an 8 u inch polished finish. If the bores
>are the same diameter (within a couple of ten thousandths, and all
>straight, no prob. I thought about lapping each set of rings to its own
>hole, but decided that the extra block clean-up was a nightmare (not to
>mention stray lapping compound) waiting to happen. (Lapping compound in
>this case would be more like jewelers' rouge than what you are used to
>thinking of for lapping valves. WAY finer.) Lots of serious HP boat motors
>are pre-seated this way. It works. Also saves a LOT of break in debris from
>floating around insside the engine.
>

Just out of curiosity, what's the boretech treatment cost?
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan 10 21:07:57 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:07:57 -0500
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg - #2
Message-ID: <mailman.32008.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Just cut my regulator open.  Could I change the spring
>to a lighter spring with a faster rate to alter the regulator's
>rate rather than messing with the diaphram size?

I do not understand how you intend to get a "faster rate" from a "lighter"
spring?????

A softer rate spring would change the relationship of fuel pressure to
reference pressure--shift the line to the left as it were--giving lower
fuel pressure relative to a given reference pressure--and vice versa for a
stiffer rate spring, but neither would not change the "rate" (slope) of the
line. You need a bigger diaphragm to do what you are talking about.

But really, changing the rate of the spring will not have much more effect
than changing its length, as is done with an adjustable, linear rate
regulator.

If you want really STABLE regulation, you would need to use a device called
a "balanced port" regulator---but I rather doubt that any automotive fuel
pressure regulators have gone to this level of sophistication. A balanced
port regulator offers much lower "offset" (error) from its set-point with
changes in bypass flow than a conventional regulator is capable of
achieving.

But nice try!! :-)

Regards, Greg
>
>TIA,
>-Mike
>==========================================
>Mike Pitts
>Delray Beach, FL
>mpitts at emi.net
>==========================================




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan 10 21:26:21 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:26:21 -0500
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg - #2
Message-ID: <mailman.32009.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 02:02 PM 1/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Just cut my regulator open.  Could I change the spring
>>to a lighter spring with a faster rate to alter the regulator's
>>rate rather than messing with the diaphram size?
>
>I do not understand how you intend to get a "faster rate" from a "lighter"
>spring?????
>
>A softer rate spring would change the relationship of fuel pressure to
>reference pressure--shift the line to the left as it were--giving lower
>fuel pressure relative to a given reference pressure--and vice versa for a
>stiffer rate spring, but neither would not change the "rate" (slope) of the
>line. You need a bigger diaphragm to do what you are talking about.

Actually, you can change the rate with a spring...  Look at the "cargo
coils" sold by Dana for cars... they hav a progressively higher number of
coils per length near one end... (wound closer together at one end than the
other) as it's compressed, the rate increases... this way they are able to
have a low rate when the car is unloaded for comfort, and a higher rate
when it's loaded to keep it from bottoming out.  Done on a smaller scale it
could be done for a regulator, but there would be an awful lot of man (or
woman) hours into researching the proper spring to get the desired effect.
Later,
Dave

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net  Sun Jan 10 22:45:02 1999
From: mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:45:02 -0500
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg - #2
Message-ID: <mailman.32010.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>Could I change the spring to a lighter spring with 
>>a faster rate to alter the regulator's rate...

>I do not understand how you intend to get a "faster rate" from 
>a "lighter" spring?????

I may not understand or use the terms correctly, but here's 
the hypothesis which prompted my question.

The fuel pressure is lowered by vacuum on the top side 
of the diaphram.  This is the same side the spring is on.  
The pressure of the fuel is on the bottom side of the diaphram.

Every unit of vacuum lowers the fuel pressure by an equal 
amount.  So, vacuum compresses the spring.  My assumption 
is that if I make the spring *easier* to compress, the same 
amount of vacuum will raise the diaphram farther and result 
in even less fuel pressure for a given amount of vacuum. 

But then it occured to me, the diaphram surface area on which 
the fuel presses against, and the surface area of the vacuum 
side of the diaphram is equal.  So the vacuum is probably just 
acting as a delta to the fuel pressure only, not the spring, and 
the spring is probably just setting the base pressure.  In other 
words, a faster rate spring will simply compress more from the 
fuel pressure alone, then the delta created by vacuum will remain 
the same.  So I guess there's a good chance that using a spring 
of a different rate won't make any difference.

I know nothing about fluid mechanics, so please bear with me. 

After staring at this cut apart regulator some more, it occurs to 
me that I can easily decrease the surface area on the fuel side 
of the diaphram by making the return oriface much larger.  The 
area of the diaphram (on each side) is approx. 1.6 sq/in.  If I 
could reduce the area of the fuel side to 0.8 sq/in, will I achieve 
a 2:1 ratio??  Or is there a square or square root in there 
somewhere that means I can get a 2:1 ratio without halving 
the surface area?

Thanks,
-Mike
==========================================
Mike Pitts
Delray Beach, FL
mpitts at emi.net
==========================================




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan 10 23:03:17 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:03:17 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32011.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>At 01:33 PM 1/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>Not really so when dealing with an 8 u inch polished finish. If the bores
>>are the same diameter (within a couple of ten thousandths, and all
>>straight, no prob. I thought about lapping each set of rings to its own
>>hole, but decided that the extra block clean-up was a nightmare (not to
>>mention stray lapping compound) waiting to happen. (Lapping compound in
>>this case would be more like jewelers' rouge than what you are used to
>>thinking of for lapping valves. WAY finer.) Lots of serious HP boat motors
>>are pre-seated this way. It works. Also saves a LOT of break in debris from
>>floating around insside the engine.

My impression was that it would be between $35 and $85 per hole, depending
on size, etc.

Regards, Greg
>>
>
>Just out of curiosity, what's the boretech treatment cost?
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>===========================================================




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan 10 23:08:32 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:08:32 -0500
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg - #2
Message-ID: <mailman.32012.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>At 02:02 PM 1/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Just cut my regulator open.  Could I change the spring
>>>to a lighter spring with a faster rate to alter the regulator's
>>>rate rather than messing with the diaphram size?
>>
>>I do not understand how you intend to get a "faster rate" from a "lighter"
>>spring?????
>>
>>A softer rate spring would change the relationship of fuel pressure to
>>reference pressure--shift the line to the left as it were--giving lower
>>fuel pressure relative to a given reference pressure--and vice versa for a
>>stiffer rate spring, but neither would not change the "rate" (slope) of the
>>line. You need a bigger diaphragm to do what you are talking about.
>
>Actually, you can change the rate with a spring...  Look at the "cargo
>coils" sold by Dana for cars... they hav a progressively higher number of
>coils per length near one end... (wound closer together at one end than the
>other) as it's compressed, the rate increases... this way they are able to
>have a low rate when the car is unloaded for comfort, and a higher rate
>when it's loaded to keep it from bottoming out.  Done on a smaller scale it
>could be done for a regulator, but there would be an awful lot of man (or
>woman) hours into researching the proper spring to get the desired effect.
>Later,
>Dave

Even if it were practical to try that, the pressure curve of the resulting
regulator would be pretty strongly dependent on the "characterization" of
its bypass port!

Regards, Greg
>
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>===========================================================




From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Sun Jan 10 23:15:03 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:15:03 -0500
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg - #2
Message-ID: <mailman.32013.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi all,
      It has been my experience the only reason to change the spring is to
match it to your fuel pressure so as to put the spring into an area where
there can be sufficient movement and no coil bind....The diameter of the
diaphram is the controlling factor for pressure ratio increase/decrease(Think
about your power brake booster)...If you really want to start increasing
pressure ratios try making more chambers of diaphrams 2, 3 stages really start
cranking on the fuel pressure when boost hits these series of
diaphrams.....hth's
-Carl Summers

In a message dated 1/10/99 2:49:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, mpitts at ns-
alpha.emi.net writes:

<< 
 I may not understand or use the terms correctly, but here's 
 the hypothesis which prompted my question.
 
 The fuel pressure is lowered by vacuum on the top side 
 of the diaphram.  This is the same side the spring is on.  
 The pressure of the fuel is on the bottom side of the diaphram.
 
 Every unit of vacuum lowers the fuel pressure by an equal 
 amount.  So, vacuum compresses the spring.  My assumption 
 is that if I make the spring *easier* to compress, the same 
 amount of vacuum will raise the diaphram farther and result 
 in even less fuel pressure for a given amount of vacuum. 
 
 But then it occured to me, the diaphram surface area on which 
 the fuel presses against, and the surface area of the vacuum 
 side of the diaphram is equal.  So the vacuum is probably just 
 acting as a delta to the fuel pressure only, not the spring, and 
 the spring is probably just setting the base pressure.  In other 
 words, a faster rate spring will simply compress more from the 
 fuel pressure alone, then the delta created by vacuum will remain 
 the same.  So I guess there's a good chance that using a spring 
 of a different rate won't make any difference.
 
 I know nothing about fluid mechanics, so please bear with me. 
 
 After staring at this cut apart regulator some more, it occurs to 
 me that I can easily decrease the surface area on the fuel side 
 of the diaphram by making the return oriface much larger.  The 
 area of the diaphram (on each side) is approx. 1.6 sq/in.  If I 
 could reduce the area of the fuel side to 0.8 sq/in, will I achieve 
 a 2:1 ratio??  Or is there a square or square root in there 
 somewhere that means I can get a 2:1 ratio without halving 
 the surface area?
 
 Thanks,
 -Mike
 


From mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net  Sun Jan 10 23:25:46 1999
From: mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:25:46 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32014.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I took some measurements and did the math.  The area 
of the vacuum side of the FPR diaphram is 1.6 sq/in. 
I can reduce the area of the fuel side of the diaphram to 
1.0 sq/in.  Will this give me a rate of approx. 1.6:1?  

TIA,
-Mike
==========================================
Mike Pitts
Delray Beach, FL
mpitts at emi.net
==========================================




From ECMnut at aol.com  Sun Jan 10 23:38:27 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:38:27 -0500
Subject: 2 Bar MAP V-8
Message-ID: <mailman.32015.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Amazing..


From John.Andrian at usa.net  Mon Jan 11 00:34:37 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:34:37 -0500
Subject: Wide Ratio Bosch O2
Message-ID: <mailman.32016.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thank you for the SAE paper number Bruce. If I come up on something else
considering O2 sensors I will post it.
I have lately come up to some very strange Bosch O2 sensors fitted in
1997- model VW and Seat. They look like standard foor wire sensors(2 for
heater, 1 signal, 1 ecu ground) but when I tapped into the signal line I
saw a range of 0-1500mV and not the usual 0-1000mV. I thought that the
this 1 Volt range was the limit of the ceramic element's capability to
create voltage. Though these sensors are not wide ratio I remain
puzzled.???



From clive at problem.tantech.com  Mon Jan 11 00:43:56 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 19:43:56 -0500
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg - #2
Message-ID: <mailman.32017.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> But then it occured to me, the diaphram surface area on which 
> the fuel presses against, and the surface area of the vacuum 
> side of the diaphram is equal.  So the vacuum is probably just 
> acting as a delta to the fuel pressure only, not the spring, and 
> the spring is probably just setting the base pressure.  In other 
> words, a faster rate spring will simply compress more from the 
> fuel pressure alone, then the delta created by vacuum will remain 
> the same.  So I guess there's a good chance that using a spring 
> of a different rate won't make any difference.

consider the vacuum to be a 2nd spring
the 1st spring is a constant source 
the vacuum is a variable source
a diff rate spring will make a change in the variable generated
the base height of the spring sets the initial pressure

Clive 


From marquise at candw.lc  Mon Jan 11 01:10:44 1999
From: marquise at candw.lc (Martin Powlette)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:10:44 -0500
Subject: NON GROUP
Message-ID: <mailman.32018.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------C9629627C5581A1D77B7153E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I am looking for a consultant on Auto Shop Layout/Set-up and design. I
know most of you guys have something to offer so please do.  Things seem
to be working up for the new shop.  Anyone with info on tools, websites,
books or finger pointers etc etc please advice.

Martin

--------------C9629627C5581A1D77B7153E
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begin:          vcard
fn:             Martin Powlette
n:              Powlette;Martin
org:            Auto Service & Repairs Ltd
adr:            Box 1081;;;Castries;;;St.Lucia
email;internet: marquise at candw.lc
title:          Manager/Tech.
tel;work:       (758) 452-5590
tel;fax:        452-5590
tel;home:       452-6933
note:           " We'll keep you moving in the right direction"           
x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0
x-mozilla-html: FALSE
version:        2.1
end:            vcard


--------------C9629627C5581A1D77B7153E--



From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 11 02:28:57 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:28:57 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32019.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I took some measurements and did the math.  The area
>of the vacuum side of the FPR diaphram is 1.6 sq/in.
>I can reduce the area of the fuel side of the diaphram to
>1.0 sq/in.  Will this give me a rate of approx. 1.6:1?

Yes it will, Mike--but how (and to what) are you venting the rest of the
diaphragm area on the fuel side of it??  might be easier to just vent the
manifold side of the existing one to atmosphere, and add a second, bigger
one with manifold pressure on one side and atm. on the other. And, yes,
that way, you will have avoided having to figure a way to seal the rod that
ties the two together---

Regards, Greg
>
>TIA,
>-Mike
>==========================================
>Mike Pitts
>Delray Beach, FL
>mpitts at emi.net
>==========================================




From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 11 02:35:50 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:35:50 -0500
Subject: Non-linear fuel pressure reg - #2
Message-ID: <mailman.32020.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>> But then it occured to me, the diaphram surface area on which
>> the fuel presses against, and the surface area of the vacuum
>> side of the diaphram is equal.  So the vacuum is probably just
>> acting as a delta to the fuel pressure only, not the spring, and
>> the spring is probably just setting the base pressure.  In other
>> words, a faster rate spring will simply compress more from the
>> fuel pressure alone, then the delta created by vacuum will remain
>> the same.  So I guess there's a good chance that using a spring
>> of a different rate won't make any difference.
>
>consider the vacuum to be a 2nd spring
>the 1st spring is a constant source
>the vacuum is a variable source
>a diff rate spring will make a change in the variable generated
>the base height of the spring sets the initial pressure

But, to get a regulator that will give something approaching a constant
output pressure vs. load, you need a spring that is of a soft enough rate
to give  pretty constant force over the travel of the regulator valve. It
would be a grave mistake to try to get a rising rate out of regulator
offset!!

Regards, Greg
>
>Clive




From KD6JDJ at aol.com  Mon Jan 11 04:09:46 1999
From: KD6JDJ at aol.com (KD6JDJ at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:09:46 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound
Message-ID: <mailman.32021.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

 Randy
  I realize that you are not seeking my guidance when you wrote::So on the
CS-130 alternators the neg side of the diode pack is 
mounted to the case with HSC and has no screws to ground it. The 
screws are all insulated.  On my last rebuild I used T & B"copper 
kote" on the ends where the positive bolt goes thru it and on the 
other end where I added an 8-32 nut and bolt to hold it tight and 
ground it. the middle I put standard HSC.  Maybe the silver stuff 
should be used on the whole thing?    Looked like a major flaw in 
the design to me, as I have fixed about four of these all with dead 
neg side diodes.  
  But I have had a lot of experience with Delco designed alternators, and I
suggest that you consider your  design fix very carefully before you conclude
that 'they' have a design flaw.
  The CS 130 alternator does not have the reputation ( in my experience ) for
damaging negative diodes . It was my understanding that they are avalanch
diodes , expected to minimize the bad effects of transient voltage spikes . I
can get some very technical information if we need it  But, for now , I wanted
to submit to you that there may be another reason for the negative diode
failures that you have experienced.

  Also , how is the negative diode in your alternator connected to ground? I
understand that you have no screws to ground it , except the 8-32 that you
have added. I am certain that Delco intended to provide a GOOD connection
between the negative diodes and ground --- in a negative ground alternator.

  Or -- Have I misunderstood something here??

       Jerry


From mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net  Mon Jan 11 04:38:00 1999
From: mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:38:00 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32022.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>--but how (and to what) are you venting the rest of the diaphragm 
>area on the fuel side of it?? 

Ahhh, good question!

This one is easy.  But to understand it, you may need to have a cut 
open Bosch regulator in hand.

On the fuel side, the fuel from the rail forces the diaphram up, which 
opens a puck that seals a pipe which leads to the fuel return line.  

Around this puck is a rather large diameter "slug". If I braze a pipe 
into the bottom half of the regulator of the same diameter as this 
"slug", and at the proper height (critical), the "slug" should act as 
a new seal.  Nothing fancy.  Just a brazed pipe about 0.95" O.D. in 
diameter and 0.80" in height.  This will remove 0.70 sq/in of fuel 
pressure exposed surface from the bottom side of the diaphram.  
This new surface area is approx. 57% of the original area. 

There are other concerns, like, will the slug act as a proper seal? 
This can be easily remedied by micropolishing its surface (2000 
grit paper on glass)

In answer to your question above, the "venting" is to the fuel return 
line, if you can even call it venting.  It's more like a differential of 
pressure between the inside the regulator and the inside of the 
fuel return line.

I do believe this will require a lighter spring -or- a ring of precise 
thickness made to act as a shim to raise the top of the regulator 
since the original spring will now overpower the diaphram and 
cause the base pressure to skyrocket given the reduction of force 
coming from the fuel side of the diaphram. I prefer the ring method 
so I don't have to go hunting down a perfect spring.  Making the 
regulator adjustable will help with fine tuning.

I liked the idea of adding larger or multiple diaphrams, but that's 
too complicated for this home project and frankly, beyond my 
skillset.

Thanks for the input and questions, keep 'em coming!
-Mike
==========================================
Mike Pitts
Delray Beach, FL
mpitts at emi.net
==========================================




From alaint at cgocable.ca  Mon Jan 11 05:24:33 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 00:24:33 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32023.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

is there any website for the company,i just tried www.boretech.com and got
what look like a firearm company !!!

Alain T.

> My impression was that it would be between $35 and $85 per hole, depending
> on size, etc.
> 
> Regards, Greg
> >>
> >
> >Just out of curiosity, what's the boretech treatment cost?
> >===========================================================
> >           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
> >     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
> >       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
> >===========================================================
> 
> 
> 



From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 11 06:32:23 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 01:32:23 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32024.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>Around this puck is a rather large diameter "slug". If I braze a pipe
>into the bottom half of the regulator of the same diameter as this
>"slug", and at the proper height (critical), the "slug" should act as
>a new seal.  Nothing fancy.  Just a brazed pipe about 0.95" O.D. in
>diameter and 0.80" in height.  This will remove 0.70 sq/in of fuel
>pressure exposed surface from the bottom side of the diaphram.
>This new surface area is approx. 57% of the original area.
>
>There are other concerns, like, will the slug act as a proper seal?
>This can be easily remedied by micropolishing its surface (2000
>grit paper on glass)
>
>In answer to your question above, the "venting" is to the fuel return
>line, if you can even call it venting.  It's more like a differential of
>pressure between the inside the regulator and the inside of the
>fuel return line.

OK, but that should work well enough. But the one thing that still is of
concern--you are right, it is kinda hard to tell from remote--is that it
sounds as if you might be greatly increasing the effective area of the
relief port. If this is true, the modified regulator's response would be
VERY jumpy--all over the place. Not what you want at all. Like trying to
drive a small finish nail with a three pound single-jack.

Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 11 06:39:38 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 01:39:38 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32025.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>is there any website for the company,i just tried www.boretech.com and got
>what look like a firearm company !!!
>
>Alain T.

Dunno, but I sorta doubt it. Address and phone were in my first post the
other day. If they have a URL, I spect  they would be happy to give it to
you! 'Twas in Batavia, OH, area code 513.

Greg
>
>> My impression was that it would be between $35 and $85 per hole, depending
>> on size, etc.
>>
>> Regards, Greg
>> >>
>> >
>> >Just out of curiosity, what's the boretech treatment cost?
>> >===========================================================
>> >           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>> >     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>> >       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>> >===========================================================
>>
>>
>>




From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Mon Jan 11 07:58:38 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 02:58:38 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32026.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/10/99 1:24:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

<< Not really so when dealing with an 8 u inch polished finish. If the bores
 are the same diameter (within a couple of ten thousandths, and all
 straight, no prob. I thought about lapping each set of rings to its own
 hole, but decided that the extra block clean-up was a nightmare (not to
 mention stray lapping compound) waiting to happen. (Lapping compound in
 this case would be more like jewelers' rouge than what you are used to
 thinking of for lapping valves. WAY finer.) Lots of serious HP boat motors
 are pre-seated this way. It works. Also saves a LOT of break in debris from
 floating around insside the engine.
 
 Regards, Greg >>
You might try using your cylinder sleeve with a bit of Diamond Lapping
Compound. We used to use it on solid laps for very fine finishing on aluminum
and andodized surfaces for Hydraulic actuators. These were lapped for finish
and size and fitted with 0.0001-0.0002 slip fits. you might think about making
air cylinder operated vertical lap if you want to get it done quickly, also no
side load on the pistons that way.
Fred


From fagunddj at is2.dal.ca  Mon Jan 11 11:35:40 1999
From: fagunddj at is2.dal.ca (Dennis J Fagundo)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:35:40 -0500
Subject: IGNORE TEST MESSAGE
Message-ID: <mailman.32027.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Testing

________________________________________________

Dennis Fagundo
fagunddj at is2.dal.ca
dfagundo at ibl.bm

http://is2.dal.ca/~fagunddj
Technical University of Nova Scotia
_______________________________________________



From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 11 13:44:12 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:44:12 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32028.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>In a message dated 1/10/99 1:24:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
>writes:
>
><< Not really so when dealing with an 8 u inch polished finish. If the bores
> are the same diameter (within a couple of ten thousandths, and all
> straight, no prob. I thought about lapping each set of rings to its own
> hole, but decided that the extra block clean-up was a nightmare (not to
> mention stray lapping compound) waiting to happen. (Lapping compound in
> this case would be more like jewelers' rouge than what you are used to
> thinking of for lapping valves. WAY finer.) Lots of serious HP boat motors
> are pre-seated this way. It works. Also saves a LOT of break in debris from
> floating around insside the engine.
>
> Regards, Greg >>
>You might try using your cylinder sleeve with a bit of Diamond Lapping
>Compound. We used to use it on solid laps for very fine finishing on aluminum
>and andodized surfaces for Hydraulic actuators. These were lapped for finish
>and size and fitted with 0.0001-0.0002 slip fits. you might think about making
>air cylinder operated vertical lap if you want to get it done quickly, also no
>side load on the pistons that way.
>Fred

Hey---nice suggestion. Thanks, Fred. I was thinking of just using a spring
or some other sort of a flexible connection to the ring holder, but lazier
is always better!!!

Where to find the diamond lapping compound?? Is there a variety of grit
sizes?? If so which is best??

Regards, Greg




From pford at qnx.com  Mon Jan 11 13:52:26 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:52:26 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.32029.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Greg Hermann wrote:

> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:03:36 -0700
> From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Photo Radar
> 
> 
> >
> >in the Ottawa Can. area it seems that if you didn't make the cop drop his
> >doughnut he wont bother you
> >
> >>
> In Colorado, if he spills his coffee, it's an equal number of points--go
> straight to jail if he does both!
> 
> Greg
> 
 I thought in the 'States the cops could shoot you for that 8*)) 

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net  Mon Jan 11 14:14:53 1999
From: mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:14:53 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32030.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>might be easier to just vent the manifold side of the existing 
>one to atmosphere, and add a second, bigger one with 
>manifold pressure on one side and atm.

Greg,

I didn't pay this much attention at first, because it seemed 
beyond my capabilities.  Mostly because manufacturing a 
diaphram with the spring seat, etc would be impossible for 
me.  But the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

Maybe I can find an existing larger diaphram from a larger 
regulator, or and EGR valve, or a A/C vent mechanism, or 
cruise control, etc.  (Any other ideas?)  I would need one with 
a diameter of ~2" to achieve the desired rising rate.

Connecting the new top to the old bottom will be tricky part.

After my post last night about adding a larger diameter pipe 
to the outlet side of the reg., it later occured to me that it may 
not work either since, once the diaphram lifts to relieve pressure, 
the entire underside of the diaphram will be exposed to the fuel 
pressure.

Anyone have a cheap milling lathe for sale? 8-)

Thanks,
-Mike
==========================================
Mike Pitts
Delray Beach, FL
mpitts at emi.net
==========================================




From Cputter at sed.sun.ac.za  Mon Jan 11 14:49:37 1999
From: Cputter at sed.sun.ac.za (Putter C)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:49:37 -0500
Subject: Motronic Interface ?
Message-ID: <mailman.32031.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_000_01BE3D70.37EBD190
Content-Type: text/plain

I am thinking the same way.
On the wiring schematic of the car, there are 2 lines from the ECU to this
conector (RX&TX   or   Signal&Gnd ?).
I'll keep you informed on my findings.
Cheers
Carlo
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	xxalexx at ix.netcom.com [SMTP:xxalexx at ix.netcom.com]
> Sent:	Saturday, January 09, 1999 7:51 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Motronic Interface ?
> 
> > Has anybody got an idea which protocal is ussed byt the bosch motronic
> > 1.5/2.5 ECUs?
> > The diagnostics port on my car looks nearly like the ALDL ports and not
> like
> > OBD-II.
> > 
> > What is the equivalent to to Vauxhaul Astra (UK) {OPEL Astra (RSA)} in
> the
> > rest of the
> > world, maybe somebody has go some info on the computer, but published it
> > under another
> > name ?
> > 
> ISO-9141?
> alex

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------_=_NextPart_000_01BE3D70.37EBD190--


From rbraun at enter.net  Mon Jan 11 15:50:06 1999
From: rbraun at enter.net (Randy)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:50:06 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound
Message-ID: <mailman.32032.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The positive diode pack is stacked on top of the negative diode 
pack and the whole thing is screwed down to the case with three 
screws, all of which have plastic insulators on them, obviously 
needed since the screws pass through both diode sets.  The neg 
side is to conduct to the case just by clamping pressure to the 
case but this is through a layer of HSC.   Maybe Delco used a 
conductive HSC, but the factory stuff is the same white looking 
stuff I've always seen.

Negative diode failures are the most common cause of death for 
these alt's.  There is a new aftermarket design out, summit sells it, 
called the "iceberg"  It has fins on the rear case where the diodes 
mount.  I think my extra screw or conductive HSC , if I could find 
that, is the way to go.   105A is a lot of current to push through a 
resistive connection.


> 
>   Also , how is the negative diode in your alternator connected to ground? I
> understand that you have no screws to ground it , except the 8-32 that you
> have added. I am certain that Delco intended to provide a GOOD connection
> between the negative diodes and ground --- in a negative ground alternator.
> 
>   Or -- Have I misunderstood something here??
> 
>        Jerry
> 


Randy Braun     rbraun at enter.net
30th Ann. T/A coming soon....
91  GTA   for sale
82 Firebird


From elpare at coastalnet.com  Mon Jan 11 17:03:16 1999
From: elpare at coastalnet.com (eric and lisa)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:03:16 -0500
Subject: NON GROUP
Message-ID: <mailman.32033.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Try Classic Motorbooks 1-800-826-6600.  They have gobs of cool books on
anything automotive, and I mean anything.  They used to have  a book on how
to set up your shop.  I would give you the title, but I dont have a
catalogue at the moment.
Eric

----------
> From: Martin Powlette <marquise at candw.lc>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; toyota-mods at cyberauto.com
> Subject: NON GROUP
> Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 8:50 PM
> 
> I am looking for a consultant on Auto Shop Layout/Set-up and design. I
> know most of you guys have something to offer so please do.  Things seem
> to be working up for the new shop.  Anyone with info on tools, websites,
> books or finger pointers etc etc please advice.
> 
> Martin
> 


From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 11 17:05:48 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:05:48 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32034.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Later gm cruise control diaphragm is maybe 2 1/2".  Like the type
found on (guessing)89/90 astro van.
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> >might be easier to just vent the manifold side of the existing
> >one to atmosphere, and add a second, bigger one with
> >manifold pressure on one side and atm.
> 
> Greg,
> 
> I didn't pay this much attention at first, because it seemed
> beyond my capabilities.  Mostly because manufacturing a
> diaphram with the spring seat, etc would be impossible for
> me.  But the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.
> 
> Maybe I can find an existing larger diaphram from a larger
> regulator, or and EGR valve, or a A/C vent mechanism, or
> cruise control, etc.  (Any other ideas?)  I would need one with
> a diameter of ~2" to achieve the desired rising rate.
> 
> Connecting the new top to the old bottom will be tricky part.
> 
> After my post last night about adding a larger diameter pipe
> to the outlet side of the reg., it later occured to me that it may
> not work either since, once the diaphram lifts to relieve pressure,
> the entire underside of the diaphram will be exposed to the fuel
> pressure.
> 
> Anyone have a cheap milling lathe for sale? 8-)
> 
> Thanks,
> -Mike
> ==========================================
> Mike Pitts
> Delray Beach, FL
> mpitts at emi.net
> ==========================================



From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Mon Jan 11 17:07:18 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:07:18 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32035.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  Mike, I don't know what your budget is for this project but I have, on occasion had to make modifications under budget restraints.  In every case, I had to re-due the work because the material I had to work with could not handle the load.  I would like to recommend an alternative:  Mallory has a return type BDFPR (Boost Dependent Fuel Pressure Regulator) made out of billet aluminum for $69.95 (JEGS part # 650-4309).  The unit will still work if your engine is not a turbo.  It uses 4 set screws to hold the diaphragm and it is adjustable.  You could modify this unit, successfully, without the worry of material failure.  Remember that you are dealing with fuel: a sudden leak can cause tremendous damage!  This Mallory unit is the cheapest one that I have found that has the ability to be modified.  It is a three port unit (actually it has 4 port openings but is called a 3 port).  It comes with an assortment  of springs: 3-12 psi, 10-40 psi, 35-65 psi.  The vacuum index decreases !
about 1 psi for every 2 inches Hg; the boost index increases 1 psi for every 1 psi of boost.
  Now, with this unit you could easily install two diaphragms.  You could reduce the area of one by using two large washers, one on top and one on the bottom of the diaphragm, that extended into the chamber restricting the area of the diaphragm (washers with a smaller inside diameter than the original unit) and to hold the original diaphragm.  Drill the holes and get longer set screws.  By ordering a replacement diaphragm you could connect it to the first diaphragm, and by inserting a spacer, after drilling a hole to vent to the atmosphere, you would have the unit that Greg described.  The spacer would have to be made but could be done with non specialized tools.
  I have one and am going to increase the boost index to 6:1 via the method described above.
  Oh, THANKS GREG, for telling me how it has to be done!  
  


At 09:14 AM 1/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>might be easier to just vent the manifold side of the existing 
>>one to atmosphere, and add a second, bigger one with 
>>manifold pressure on one side and atm.
>
>Greg,
>
>I didn't pay this much attention at first, because it seemed 
>beyond my capabilities.  Mostly because manufacturing a 
>diaphram with the spring seat, etc would be impossible for 
>me.  But the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.
>
>Maybe I can find an existing larger diaphram from a larger 
>regulator, or and EGR valve, or a A/C vent mechanism, or 
>cruise control, etc.  (Any other ideas?)  I would need one with 
>a diameter of ~2" to achieve the desired rising rate.
>
>Connecting the new top to the old bottom will be tricky part.
>
>After my post last night about adding a larger diameter pipe 
>to the outlet side of the reg., it later occured to me that it may 
>not work either since, once the diaphram lifts to relieve pressure, 
>the entire underside of the diaphram will be exposed to the fuel 
>pressure.
>
>Anyone have a cheap milling lathe for sale? 8-)
>
>Thanks,
>-Mike
>==========================================
>Mike Pitts
>Delray Beach, FL
>mpitts at emi.net
>==========================================
>
>
>


From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 11 17:14:27 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:14:27 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound
Message-ID: <mailman.32036.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> The positive diode pack is stacked on top of the negative diode
> pack and the whole thing is screwed down to the case with three
> screws, all of which have plastic insulators on them, obviously
> needed since the screws pass through both diode sets.  The neg
> side is to conduct to the case just by clamping pressure to the
> case but this is through a layer of HSC.   Maybe Delco used a
> conductive HSC, but the factory stuff is the same white looking
> stuff I've always seen.
> 
> Negative diode failures are the most common cause of death for
> these alt's.  There is a new aftermarket design out, summit sells it,
> called the "iceberg"  It has fins on the rear case where the diodes
> mount.  I think my extra screw or conductive HSC , if I could find
> that, is the way to go.   105A is a lot of current to push through a
> resistive connection.
> 

I've seen many, many more mechanical failures in these than
electrical.  Mainly, the front bearing.  Maybe the area you're in has
to do with the type of failures you see.  
Shannen

> >
> >   Also , how is the negative diode in your alternator connected to ground? I
> > understand that you have no screws to ground it , except the 8-32 that you
> > have added. I am certain that Delco intended to provide a GOOD connection
> > between the negative diodes and ground --- in a negative ground alternator.
> >
> >   Or -- Have I misunderstood something here??
> >
> >        Jerry
> >
> 
> Randy Braun     rbraun at enter.net
> 30th Ann. T/A coming soon....
> 91  GTA   for sale
> 82 Firebird



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Mon Jan 11 17:20:07 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:20:07 -0500
Subject: Stepper Motors
Message-ID: <mailman.32037.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Not sure how big you need, but older hard drives and floppies (early
80's, think 8 inch floppies and full height 360K 5" floppies) had
steppers quite a bit larger than todays drives do.

If you need bigger than that, there was an article in radio electronics
a few years ago about turning an alternator into a stepper.

--steve

Robert Harris wrote:
> 
> Any clues for sources of inexpensive 12VDC small stepper motors ( but bigger
> than those used in hard drives).  I think I may have a need if they are
> reasonable in power, speed and price.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> The Luddites were RIGHT!!
> 
> Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From amattei at mindspring.com  Mon Jan 11 18:16:27 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:16:27 -0500
Subject: Stepper Motors
Message-ID: <mailman.32038.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well, heck, I might as well throw in a comment too ;)

How big and how many do you need? I've always saved steppers from my
junk stuff, and have just a few steppers. I know I have 'em from old
floppies, printers, plotters, etc. Whaddya need, and I'll see what's in
the old boxes. Haven't opened 'em in a while...

Heck, might even have some DEC motors from RL-02's, RX01's, etc. layin'
around...

Andrew "The E-stuff Pack Rat" M
And my wife tells me I'd never have a use for this stuff... :P

> Robert Harris wrote:
> >
> > Any clues for sources of inexpensive 12VDC small stepper motors ( but bigger
> > than those used in hard drives).  I think I may have a need if they are
> > reasonable in power, speed and price.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > The Luddites were RIGHT!!
> >
> > Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From thergen at svn.net  Mon Jan 11 18:24:48 1999
From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:24:48 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound
Message-ID: <mailman.32039.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I had both the bearing and later the diode failure mode on my alternator.

Does anyone have a source for those wrap around clamps needed on the CS130
alternators for retaining the replacement bearing after punching out
the old front bearing?

I think JC Whitney also carries the "iceberg" case.

Thanks,
Tom


On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:
> > Negative diode failures are the most common cause of death for
> > these alt's.  There is a new aftermarket design out, summit sells it,
> > called the "iceberg"  It has fins on the rear case where the diodes
> > mount.  I think my extra screw or conductive HSC , if I could find
> > that, is the way to go.   105A is a lot of current to push through a
> > resistive connection.
> > 
> 
> I've seen many, many more mechanical failures in these than
> electrical.  Mainly, the front bearing.  Maybe the area you're in has
> to do with the type of failures you see.  
> Shannen
> 



From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Mon Jan 11 18:40:53 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:40:53 -0500
Subject: Stepper Motors
Message-ID: <mailman.32040.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The article in Radio electronics by Don Lancaster talked about the
feasibility of an alternator as a stepper but he concluded the the step
angle would be to great  for practical uses. Most steppers are 1.8 deg
between  steps. The alternator would be in excess of 
30 degrees if I remember right. I want to try an alternator as a brushless
motor using 6 transistors to commutate the windings.
I have found  lazer Printers and plotters a good source for high torque
steppers. Copy machines might have the stepper you need also. If you have a
bi-polar stepper (4 wires) you can experiment with a IAC driver delco 23266
and some external power transistors.
Unipolar steppers (6 wires) are easier to drive and many circuits are on the
web if your search for stepper motor.
 
Don 
 


   
  

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	steve ravet [SMTP:Steve.Ravet at arm.com]
> Sent:	Monday, January 11, 1999 11:17 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Stepper Motors
> 
> Not sure how big you need, but older hard drives and floppies (early
> 80's, think 8 inch floppies and full height 360K 5" floppies) had
> steppers quite a bit larger than todays drives do.
> 
> If you need bigger than that, there was an article in radio electronics
> a few years ago about turning an alternator into a stepper.
> 
> --steve
> 
> Robert Harris wrote:
> > 
> > Any clues for sources of inexpensive 12VDC small stepper motors ( but
> bigger
> > than those used in hard drives).  I think I may have a need if they are
> > reasonable in power, speed and price.
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > The Luddites were RIGHT!!
> > 
> > Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From mpitts at netspeak.com  Mon Jan 11 19:00:24 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:00:24 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32041.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Budget isn't really a concern. I could just go buy an FMU 
if I wanted to.  But I like doing things myself when possible, 
I enjoy the challenge.  I'm not too concerned about spilling 
fuel either.  I wouldn't do anything that would risk a failure 
like that.

When you say 6:1, does that mean you are increasing the FP 
by 6 PSI for every 1 PSI of boost?  That seems like way too 
much. I run 24 PSI at the track, that would be nearly 150 PSI 
increase in fuel pressure!

Thanks,
-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence Wood
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: Fp regulator mods

>>I have one and am going to increase the boost index to 6:1 
>>via the method described above.


From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 11 19:28:37 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:28:37 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound
Message-ID: <mailman.32042.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Former local auto parts store sold rebuild kits which had the clamp. 
Think they were "quick start" kits which are also sold through JC
whitney.
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> I had both the bearing and later the diode failure mode on my alternator.
> 
> Does anyone have a source for those wrap around clamps needed on the CS130
> alternators for retaining the replacement bearing after punching out
> the old front bearing?
> 
> I think JC Whitney also carries the "iceberg" case.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom
> 
> On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:
> > > Negative diode failures are the most common cause of death for
> > > these alt's.  There is a new aftermarket design out, summit sells it,
> > > called the "iceberg"  It has fins on the rear case where the diodes
> > > mount.  I think my extra screw or conductive HSC , if I could find
> > > that, is the way to go.   105A is a lot of current to push through a
> > > resistive connection.
> > >
> >
> > I've seen many, many more mechanical failures in these than
> > electrical.  Mainly, the front bearing.  Maybe the area you're in has
> > to do with the type of failures you see.
> > Shannen
> >



From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Mon Jan 11 19:36:07 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:36:07 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32043.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/11/99 6:53:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

<< 
 Hey---nice suggestion. Thanks, Fred. I was thinking of just using a spring
 or some other sort of a flexible connection to the ring holder, but lazier
 is always better!!!
 
 Where to find the diamond lapping compound?? Is there a variety of grit
 sizes?? If so which is best??
 
 Regards, Greg >>

Thanks, glad you liked the idea. Thought a bit of work and a couple of sensors
on the air cylinder, you could make the lap programmable. 
You can get diamond lapping compound from most industrial supplies. Enco
Manufacturing has it 5 ml syringes with a soluble carrier for less than USD
10.00 per tube. Finest is 0-2 micron, coarsest is 36-54 micron.
Everyone on the list should get an Enco catalog. It is the Sears of machinery
both small and large. 
Enco Manufacturing
5000 W. Bloomingdale 
Chicago, IL 60639
1-800-use-enco
1-800-873-3626

On a similar note, there is a Nikasil facility somewhere in the states now.
they can coat cylinders with a Nickel Silicon coating by the explosion of a
filament wire. It has been used on Linerless cylinders from Porsche and a
number of small bore motocross bikes. Wish we had it when the Vegas were
around. Similar to Bore Tech in that you finish to size, and then coat. Works
fantastic as long as long you filter the air and oil. Good place for an Oberg
type filter.
Wish you luck on the experiment. Keep us posted.
Fred


From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 11 21:52:12 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:52:12 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.32044.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Greg Hermann wrote:
>
>> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:03:36 -0700
>> From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> Subject: Re: Photo Radar
>>
>>
>> >
>> >in the Ottawa Can. area it seems that if you didn't make the cop drop his
>> >doughnut he wont bother you
>> >
>> >>
>> In Colorado, if he spills his coffee, it's an equal number of points--go
>> straight to jail if he does both!
>>
>> Greg
>>
> I thought in the 'States the cops could shoot you for that 8*))

They only act that way east of the Mississippi . East of the Sierra/Cascade
crest and west of the 100th parallel, they don't ;even consider it, cuz
they assume that even more lead might come back the other way!! :-)

Greg
>
>Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
>QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
>(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews
>(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8




From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Mon Jan 11 22:10:33 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:10:33 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32045.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  Yes, 6 psi FP for every 1 psi boost.  I am basing this on Corky Bell's recommendation.  I have a friend who is running an L28ET (Nissan 2.8, in-line 6, FI, turbo) who is using Bell's BDFPR which is a 6:1 and he gets 17 psi of boost using stock injectors; his fuel pump has 110-120 cut off, GPH=60-70.  Seems a little high to me also, and to everyone I talk to, but I spoke to Corky Bell and he said that is what was needed.  

At 02:00 PM 1/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Budget isn't really a concern. I could just go buy an FMU 
>if I wanted to.  But I like doing things myself when possible, 
>I enjoy the challenge.  I'm not too concerned about spilling 
>fuel either.  I wouldn't do anything that would risk a failure 
>like that.
>
>When you say 6:1, does that mean you are increasing the FP 
>by 6 PSI for every 1 PSI of boost?  That seems like way too 
>much. I run 24 PSI at the track, that would be nearly 150 PSI 
>increase in fuel pressure!
>
>Thanks,
>-Mike
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Clarence Wood
>Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 1:19 PM
>Subject: Re: Fp regulator mods
>
>>>I have one and am going to increase the boost index to 6:1 
>>>via the method described above.
>
>


From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 11 22:27:00 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:27:00 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32046.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

 Mallory has a return type BDFPR (Boost Dependent Fuel Pressure Regulator)
made out of billet aluminum for $69.95 (JEGS part # 650-4309).  The unit
will still work if your engine is not a turbo.  It uses 4 set screws to
hold the diaphragm and it is adjustable.  You could modify this unit,
successfully, without the worry of material failure.  Remember that you are
dealing with fuel: a sudden leak can cause tremendous damage!  This Mallory
unit is the cheapest one that I have found that has the ability to be
modified.  It is a three port unit (actually it has 4 port openings but is
called a 3 port).  It comes with an assortment  of springs: 3-12 psi, 10-40
psi, 35-65 psi.

Hey--thanks for the part number. sounds like a deal!

>  Now, with this unit you could easily install two diaphragms.  You could
>reduce the area of one by using two large washers, one on top and one on
>the bottom of the diaphragm, that extended into the chamber restricting
>the area of the diaphragm (washers with a smaller inside diameter than the
>original unit) and to hold the original diaphragm.  Drill the holes and
>get longer set screws.  By ordering a replacement diaphragm you could
>connect it to the first diaphragm, and by inserting a spacer, after
>drilling a hole to vent to the atmosphere, you would have the unit that
>Greg described.  The spacer would have to be made but could be done with
>non specialized tools.
>  I have one and am going to increase the boost index to 6:1 via the
>method described above.
>  Oh, THANKS GREG, for telling me how it has to be done!

 --Carl had a hand in that TOO!!--THANKS!!

There are some 1:1 and 3:1 and 4:1 ratio pneumatic pressure corrected
pressure regulators available both for industrial steam line use and for
industrial (ammonia refrigerant) refrigeration systems.  I am SURE that
regulators intended for either of these applications would be appropriately
safe for fuel use! :-) But, none as good a deal as the Mallory unit! IMHO ,
Mallory makes FINE stuff!!

You can also easily do like Bell does with their rising rate unit, and use
a couple of orifices and a needle valve in the manifold pressure line to
the regulator so as to be able to fine tune the rate of rise once the
diaphragm sizes are close.

Another possibility, if you want REALLY accurate control, would be to
REDUCE the size of the port in the Mallory valve down to about .060"
diameter (with a bushing), get the control rate the way you want it as
discussed above, and then use the Mallory regulator as a PILOT valve to
operate an industrial grade control valve with a BALANCED port, and with
said port sized correctly for your particular flow situation!! Said
industrial valves in the size range we are talking about would prolly set
you back about one portrait of Ben (otherwise known as a "fun coupon"!!)
And you are talking about a truly bulletproof piece--good for ammonia, or
whatever, certainly OK for gasoline, and prolly literally able to make a
.38 Special slug bounce, if not a .357!!
>
Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 11 22:47:35 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:47:35 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32047.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>In a message dated 1/11/99 6:53:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
>writes:
>
><<
> Hey---nice suggestion. Thanks, Fred. I was thinking of just using a spring
> or some other sort of a flexible connection to the ring holder, but lazier
> is always better!!!
>
> Where to find the diamond lapping compound?? Is there a variety of grit
> sizes?? If so which is best??
>
> Regards, Greg >>
>
>Thanks, glad you liked the idea. Thought a bit of work and a couple of sensors
>on the air cylinder, you could make the lap programmable.
>You can get diamond lapping compound from most industrial supplies. Enco
>Manufacturing has it 5 ml syringes with a soluble carrier for less than USD
>10.00 per tube. Finest is 0-2 micron, coarsest is 36-54 micron.
>Everyone on the list should get an Enco catalog. It is the Sears of machinery
>both small and large.
>Enco Manufacturing
>5000 W. Bloomingdale
>Chicago, IL 60639
>1-800-use-enco
>1-800-873-3626
>
>On a similar note, there is a Nikasil facility somewhere in the states now.
>they can coat cylinders with a Nickel Silicon coating by the explosion of a
>filament wire. It has been used on Linerless cylinders from Porsche and a
>number of small bore motocross bikes. Wish we had it when the Vegas were
>around. Similar to Bore Tech in that you finish to size, and then coat. Works
>fantastic as long as long you filter the air and oil. Good place for an Oberg
>type filter.
>Wish you luck on the experiment. Keep us posted.
>Fred

Yeah--as always, some luck will be needed. Your use of the words "solid
lap" got me to thinking some more--mebbe the liner should be finished to
the same bore as the polished bores in the block, but with a cross-hatch
pattern from maybe #80 or #120 stones, and then be given the carbide
treatment. The thought is that maybe this approach would give the lapping
compound somewhere to "hide" and something to work against. What do you
think??

If Enco is Sears, does that make MSC = J C Penney's?? :-)

Regards, Greg





From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Tue Jan 12 00:52:25 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:52:25 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32048.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 03:21 PM 1/11/99 -0700, Greg wrote:
(snip)
>Another possibility, if you want REALLY accurate control, would be to
>REDUCE the size of the port

    Which port; return, input or valve?

>in the Mallory valve down to about .060"
>diameter (with a bushing), get the control rate the way you want it as
>discussed above, and then use the Mallory regulator as a PILOT valve to
>operate an industrial grade control valve with a BALANCED port, 

    Please explain how a BALANCED port works.
    Also, would the Mallory return port feed the IGCValve?  I am having trouble SEEING the final product; how would the fuel get back to the tank?  


>and with said port sized correctly for your particular flow situation!! >Said
>industrial valves in the size range we are talking about would prolly set
>you back about one portrait of Ben (otherwise known as a "fun coupon"!!)

    Where can I get a balanced port industrial valve and how do I explain to them what I want?


>And you are talking about a truly bulletproof piece--good for ammonia, or
>whatever, certainly OK for gasoline, and prolly literally able to make a
>.38 Special slug bounce, if not a .357!!
>>
>Regards, Greg
>
>
>


From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Tue Jan 12 00:55:12 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:55:12 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32049.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/11/99 3:39:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

<< Yeah--as always, some luck will be needed. Your use of the words "solid
 lap" got me to thinking some more--mebbe the liner should be finished to
 the same bore as the polished bores in the block, but with a cross-hatch
 pattern from maybe #80 or #120 stones, and then be given the carbide
 treatment. The thought is that maybe this approach would give the lapping
 compound somewhere to "hide" and something to work against. What do you
 think??
 
 If Enco is Sears, does that make MSC = J C Penney's?? :-)
 
 Regards, Greg
 
  >>
On the solid laps they often cut a small spiral groove to carry the lapping
compound and let the swarf (removed material) float out of the way. Honing to
size would be best, be careful about how coarse a finish you leave. The peaks
will wear away and the lap will go oversize very quickly. Might try a small
spiral grove in the bore. Interestingly, when they lap Granite surface plates,
they use a cast iron plate, and charge (the term for applying lapping compound
to a lap) the lap with dry diamond powder by crushing it into the cast iron
with a hardened steel roller and then working the high spots down like block
sanding. Might work well as it would keep the lap from dying as quickly. You
could charge the lap with a rod and a radiused race bearing by rotating it in
a lathe.
As for MSC, it is more like Neiman Marcus in comparison.
Fred


From stanicki at cgocable.net  Tue Jan 12 01:12:53 1999
From: stanicki at cgocable.net (Emmett)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:12:53 -0500
Subject: air/fuel gauge
Message-ID: <mailman.32050.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

March Custom rodder has add for
Dakota Digital air/fuel mixture gauge
Displays mV, works with 1 to 3 wire EGO
Phone 800-852-3228


From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Tue Jan 12 01:23:49 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:23:49 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32051.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The final machining operation is lapping, check out Federal Mogul's web site for details.

----------
From: 	Bruce Plecan[SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
Sent: 	January 10, 1999 1:01 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Piccioni <mpiccioni at attcanada.net>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)


>It would be interesting to take cylinder leakdown measurements at a regular
interval and determine ring seating/wear rates.
>
>----------
>From: Greg Hermann[SMTP:bearbvd at sni.net]
>Sent: January 10, 1999 10:00 AM
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Re: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
>
>>On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:02:03 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
>><snip>
>>>Saw an ad in a pals copy of "Vintage Views", a vintage motorcycle racing
>>>as'sn. newsletter. It is some sort of a proprietary carbide conversion
>>>which they do to the surface of the cast iron. They mention thermal and
>>>friction advantages as well as "incredible" bore life.
>>>
>>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>Getting rings to seat must be "incredible", too :)
>>
>>Would you use cast iron, chrome, or molybdenum rings with a carbide bore?
>>
>>
>>Ray Drouillard
>
>I talked to Bore Tech about a year ago, Ray. They want the bores finished
>to their final size before you send them to them, and they want them
>POLISHED to about an 8 u-inch finish--no cross hatch pattern stuff!!!
>Obviously, this is a whole different ballgame from what we are used to!
>Chrome rings are supposed to be the ticket--clearly they are the hardest
>and longest wearing. My plan is to use forged pistons (from 2618 Al) and
>have them hard anodized about .002" thick, so as to get both high strength
>and excellent wear resistance (as well as the thermal advantages of the
>hard anodizing). Not common knowlege, but Cummins hard anodizes at least
>part of the pistons in some of their high horsepower 855's!
>
>Bore Tech claims that the rings will seat OK with conventional use, my plan
>is to come up a stray cylinder liner (from something else) which can be
>finished to the correct bore, and also carbide treated.  Then use the liner
>and an old piston (or make something) as a lap and a holder for the new
>rings, and hand lap the rings to pre-seat them prior to assembly of the
>motor.

I'd think prelapping them, and then plating would be the answer.
That way any machining errors are corrected, first, and then the
plating would be uniform, in thickness.  Anyone know for sure if the
final machining on rings for the OD is grinding?????.
Bruce
>
>Regards, Greg
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
>
>
>



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From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Tue Jan 12 01:24:12 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:24:12 -0500
Subject: Stepper Motors
Message-ID: <mailman.32052.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Use a DC pancake motor if you need high torque, some of these units will put out over 1 ft/lb. and usually have 2048 step/rev.

----------
From: 	steve ravet[SMTP:Steve.Ravet at arm.com]
Sent: 	January 11, 1999 10:17 AM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: Stepper Motors

Not sure how big you need, but older hard drives and floppies (early
80's, think 8 inch floppies and full height 360K 5" floppies) had
steppers quite a bit larger than todays drives do.

If you need bigger than that, there was an article in radio electronics
a few years ago about turning an alternator into a stepper.

--steve

Robert Harris wrote:
> 
> Any clues for sources of inexpensive 12VDC small stepper motors ( but bigger
> than those used in hard drives).  I think I may have a need if they are
> reasonable in power, speed and price.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> The Luddites were RIGHT!!
> 
> Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


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/``4```!213H@`````'&3
`
end



From mayerk at idt.net  Tue Jan 12 02:06:50 1999
From: mayerk at idt.net (Ken Mayer)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:06:50 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32053.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:44:07 -0700
> 
[snip]
> >You might try using your cylinder sleeve with a bit of Diamond Lapping
> >Compound. We used to use it on solid laps for very fine finishing on aluminum
> >and andodized surfaces for Hydraulic actuators. These were lapped for finish
> >and size and fitted with 0.0001-0.0002 slip fits. you might think about making
> >air cylinder operated vertical lap if you want to get it done quickly, also no
> >side load on the pistons that way.
> >Fred
> 
> Hey---nice suggestion. Thanks, Fred. I was thinking of just using a spring
> or some other sort of a flexible connection to the ring holder, but lazier
> is always better!!!
> 
> Where to find the diamond lapping compound?? Is there a variety of grit
> sizes?? If so which is best??

MSC, Travers, J&L, KBC, Enco, Grand Tool Supply, Production Tool Supply,
etc.  iirc they all carry "Clover" brand in various grits.  Contact info
is in the rec.crafts.metalworking faq.  Follow the link from
www.loganact.com   btw Enco is owned by MSC.

Ken
:-)



From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 12 02:24:57 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:24:57 -0500
Subject: More sillines  at CSH, HQ
Message-ID: <mailman.32054.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well, we got 749 coding working in a 730, and now we been working
on trying to run 730 code ina 749, everything checks out except
I lost the TCC.  While they move things around with code, it would still
have to apprear at what would normally be an output, right?.
  I can run 749 code in a 730, and the TCC moved as noted, so 
wouldn't doing this have to work?.  Maybe a dead ecm?.
Any thoughts suggestions appreciated.
Bruce



From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 12 02:30:27 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:30:27 -0500
Subject: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out)
Message-ID: <mailman.32055.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long overloading
a driver would take.  If I wanted to see if something was going to
work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it take to
see if they fail?.
  I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8 cyl TPI ecm
  Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted.
I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that would be one
clue.
Cheers
Bruce



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Tue Jan 12 02:45:31 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:45:31 -0500
Subject: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out)
Message-ID: <mailman.32056.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long overloading
> a driver would take.  If I wanted to see if something was going to
> work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it take to
> see if they fail?.
>   I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8 cyl TPI ecm
>   Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted.
> I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that would be one
> clue.
> Cheers
> Bruce
> 
> 
Probably by default it will get warm under normal conditions.  You
would probably need to find out what temp would damage the driver
transisters.   If you know the max temp, you would then need to
measure the temp on the driver.  I guess if you where worried you
could put a sensor on the drivers and have it warn you if you
where getting close.  Also if you cool the drivers (fans
generally) that will most likely increase the lifetime of the
drivers.  Also to properly test, you would have to do the test
under at least two extreams (hot 108 maybe, and cold) either extream
could make the drivers burn out depending on how the other components
increase or decrease the current.    

On overloading there are several different ways, one way is to
overload and smoke almost immediately, but there are alot of other
situations where the lifetime of the driver is significantly reduced,
and this one is generally what will get you.    You could reduce the
lifetime from years, to months and just have it burn on you while
driving.

Semiconductors failure mode from being old is having the parts that
make it a transistor migrate to other parts where they are not
supposed to be.   Higher temps increase the migration rate, so running
it over temp may not fail it immediately, but can result in it failing
much sooner.

I have seen automatic (motion) light sensors that had 2x the power ran
through it.   The electriction replaced it twice and each one burned
out, before he figured out that it was massively overloaded, but took
days to actually burn out.   The how close things get to the max temp
will probably be the best way to tell.   If possible adding a bigger
heat sink will also improve chances.

			Roger



From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jan 12 02:52:37 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:52:37 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32057.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>     Where can I get a balanced port industrial valve and how do I explain to them what I want?
Check a hydraulics store.  They were or are very common in surplus 
catalogs.
alex


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jan 12 02:52:40 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:52:40 -0500
Subject: Motronic Interface ?
Message-ID: <mailman.32058.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> I am thinking the same way.
> On the wiring schematic of the car, there are 2 lines from the ECU to this
> conector (RX&TX   or   Signal&Gnd ?).
This could be K and L lines or maybe a CAN
alex
> I'll keep you informed on my findings.
> Cheers
> Carlo


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jan 12 02:52:53 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:52:53 -0500
Subject: Wide Ratio Bosch O2
Message-ID: <mailman.32059.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> Thank you for the SAE paper number Bruce. If I come up on something else
> considering O2 sensors I will post it.
> I have lately come up to some very strange Bosch O2 sensors fitted in
> 1997- model VW and Seat. They look like standard foor wire sensors(2 for
> heater, 1 signal, 1 ecu ground) but when I tapped into the signal line I
> saw a range of 0-1500mV and not the usual 0-1000mV. I thought that the
> this 1 Volt range was the limit of the ceramic element's capability to
> create voltage. Though these sensors are not wide ratio I remain
> puzzled.???
> 
I had some strange 0-3volt readings from a early 90's euro toyland 
cruiser. Most likely a resistive sensor.
alex.
  


From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 12 03:31:57 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:31:57 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32060.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>At 03:21 PM 1/11/99 -0700, Greg wrote:
>(snip)
>>Another possibility, if you want REALLY accurate control, would be to
>>REDUCE the size of the port
>
>    Which port; return, input or valve?

The valve port.
>
>>in the Mallory valve down to about .060"

Maybe .125", tho.

>>diameter (with a bushing), get the control rate the way you want it as
>>discussed above, and then use the Mallory regulator as a PILOT valve to
>>operate an industrial grade control valve with a BALANCED port,

Basically, the valve is arranged so that motion of the valve's plug so as
to open or close its port is neither resisted not aided by the pressure
differential across the valve.
>
>    Please explain how a BALANCED port works.

What the above means is that it takes very little force to move the valve's
plug through its full range from open to closed.

>    Also, would the Mallory return port feed the IGCValve?  I am having
>trouble SEEING the final product; how would the fuel get back to the tank?
>

The output flow from the Mallory valve, acting as a pilot valve is what
would open the main valve against a fairly light spring. You would pipe the
output of the Mallory valve to the actuator port of the main valve.
Usually, the main valve will have an internal orifice which bleeds this
actuation pressure to the return line, but the bleed orifice can also be
piped external to the main valve. Basically, when the fuel pressure is high
enough to open the pilot valve, the relief flow through the pilot valve
acts to open the main valve. If the fuel pressure drops below the control
point, the main valve closes in response to the lack of relief flow from
the pilot valve.
>
>
>>and with said port sized correctly for your particular flow situation!! >Said
>>industrial valves in the size range we are talking about would prolly set
>>you back about one portrait of Ben (otherwise known as a "fun coupon"!!)
>
>    Where can I get a balanced port industrial valve and how do I explain
>to them what I want?

I think I would be inclined to pick one intended for use to control
refrigerant flow, since refrigeration systems very commonly use their own
refrigerant to operate the system's control valves--they do it this way in
order to minimize the number of packings, etc. which might leak refrigerant
to the atmosphere--which is just what you want with a fuel system. These
valves are even OK to use with propane (it is sometimes used as a
refrigerant, particularly in refineries, where it doesn't much matter if
there is one more thing around to go BOOM!!).

Manufacturers of sontrol valves intended for use with refrigerants include
Parker/Refrigerating Specialties, Alco, Sporlan, Hubbell, Hansen/Danfoss,
Phillips. The valves can generally be had in either brass or ductile iron
(iron only in sizes way bigger than we would be interested in.) Be happy to
try to pick out a couple of part numbers if numbers are available as to
fuel flow, pump size, etc. A typical  HVAC&R wholesaler would be an
appropriate place to order/buy one. Some of the mfgr's will sell direct.
Get hold off list, and I will see if I can dig up a copy of a sectional
view of a valve like I am talking about to clear up your picture.
>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>
>>




From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Tue Jan 12 03:42:06 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:42:06 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.32061.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>They only act that way east of the Mississippi . East of the 
>Sierra/Cascade
>crest and west of the 100th parallel, they don't ;even consider it, cuz
>they assume that even more lead might come back the other way!! :-)

West of the 100th parellel?  Where's that?  500 miles north of the north
pole?  ;-)

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 12 03:43:41 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:43:41 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32062.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>In a message dated 1/11/99 3:39:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
>writes:
>
><< Yeah--as always, some luck will be needed. Your use of the words "solid
> lap" got me to thinking some more--mebbe the liner should be finished to
> the same bore as the polished bores in the block, but with a cross-hatch
> pattern from maybe #80 or #120 stones, and then be given the carbide
> treatment. The thought is that maybe this approach would give the lapping
> compound somewhere to "hide" and something to work against. What do you
> think??
>
> If Enco is Sears, does that make MSC = J C Penney's?? :-)
>
> Regards, Greg
>
>  >>
>On the solid laps they often cut a small spiral groove to carry the lapping
>compound and let the swarf (removed material) float out of the way. Honing to
>size would be best, be careful about how coarse a finish you leave. The peaks
>will wear away and the lap will go oversize very quickly. Might try a small
>spiral grove in the bore. Interestingly, when they lap Granite surface plates,
>they use a cast iron plate, and charge (the term for applying lapping compound
>to a lap) the lap with dry diamond powder by crushing it into the cast iron
>with a hardened steel roller and then working the high spots down like block
>sanding. Might work well as it would keep the lap from dying as quickly. You
>could charge the lap with a rod and a radiused race bearing by rotating it in
>a lathe.
>As for MSC, it is more like Neiman Marcus in comparison.
>Fred

Aha!! Maybe hone the liner/lap with a coarse set of stones, and then polish
it to final size, but leaving some of the deeper grooves showing!! Thus,
lots of smooth surface at finish size, and slower wear to oversize, but
plenty of grooves to "charge" with the lapping compound.

If memory serves, a pitch lap and rouge are what is used on glass for final
figuring and polishing of optical lenses and mirrors. Also know a fellow
who has been known to use toothpaste to lap gears from a motorcycle tranny
to each other.

Thanks!!

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 12 03:46:11 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:46:11 -0500
Subject: air/fuel gauge
Message-ID: <mailman.32063.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>March Custom rodder has add for
>Dakota Digital air/fuel mixture gauge
>Displays mV, works with 1 to 3 wire EGO
>Phone 800-852-3228

About impossible for it to do more than say rich/stoich/lean with a
standard HEGO sensor. For it to claim more is BS.

Greg




From chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  Tue Jan 12 04:01:04 1999
From: chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jake Sternberg)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:01:04 -0500
Subject: Aluminum V8 PICTURES
Message-ID: <mailman.32064.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I am still selling an aluminum 215 CI V8 engine
for $500.00 (not including shipping) to the first
person who sends the money.

Pictures are available at the following URL:
(sorry, no descriptions yet)

http://www.anet-chi.com/~stash/volvo/v8/

If you have any questions about this engine
(comes with a transmission!) or if you want
to buy it, email:  chickens at mail.utexas.edu

-jake



From prusch at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jan 12 04:38:08 1999
From: prusch at ix.netcom.com (Paul Ruschman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:38:08 -0500
Subject: Testing........
Message-ID: <mailman.32065.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

	Please ignore.

		Thank you,
Paul (BRAAP) Ruschman
'75 280 ZR-1
0-60, 4.2 sec.
1/4 mi, 12.3 @ 113 MPH
http://www.datsuns.com/projects/paulrproject.htm





From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 12 04:39:09 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:39:09 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods
Message-ID: <mailman.32066.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>     Where can I get a balanced port industrial valve and how do I
>>explain to them what I want?
>Check a hydraulics store.  They were or are very common in surplus
>catalogs.
>alex

Yep--this would be a better choice than refrigeration stuff--spent some
tome with nose in catalogues this evening. You want a pilot operated valve.

Greg




From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Tue Jan 12 10:07:43 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 05:07:43 -0500
Subject: carbide cylinder bore conversion (Bore Tech)
Message-ID: <mailman.32067.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/11/99 8:31:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

<< If memory serves, a pitch lap and rouge are what is used on glass for final
 figuring and polishing of optical lenses and mirrors. Also know a fellow
 who has been known to use toothpaste to lap gears from a motorcycle tranny
 to each other.
 
 Thanks!!
 
 Regards, Greg >>

Colin Chapman ( founder of Lotus cars) was rumored to have used valve lapping
compound to lap a pair of gears from different cars together to get a ratio
not availible. Of course, he only had about 40 HP running through them when
they were done, and it was for short term usage, so anything can happen.
Toothpaste is simply Diatomacious earth with clorine or ammonia as I recall.
We used Simichrome years ago for similar uses. You can buy powdered jewelers
rouge and other grits for mixing your own suspensions. Might try a Gun shop if
you can't find it locally. They use it for tumbling brass shell cases with
crushed walnut shells. Back in my youth (70's)  We used to use toothpaste to
lap the bearing races on our bicycles and skate board wheels. (old loose ball
days) and then add new bearings after the races had been polished. If you ever
need a flat mirror type finish on steel, use a flat plate, and after lapping
on the plate, put a piece of typing paper on it and lay some lines of buffing
compund on it like you were using a crayon. Lap and then finish with a final
lap on the blank paper. Used to make absolutely perfect faces on rivet setting
dies that wouldn't mark the paint in use that away. 
Fred


From scirocco at mail.bip.net  Tue Jan 12 10:14:42 1999
From: scirocco at mail.bip.net (Roland Johansson)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 05:14:42 -0500
Subject: SV: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out)
Message-ID: <mailman.32068.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If you place a finger on the drive transistor/or several and
start it with normal number of injektors, simulate full throttle
for longest on times. The transistor/s should get wam but not
burn your finger in about 10-15 minutes time, try with bigger
number of injektors, if you burn your finger you will be closer
to the limit, probobly over if out temp are high

This is not scientific but could give you a good estimation if
it will work. If the drivers get what you think is to hot, try
add a old computer fan and test again.


Roland Johansson
Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82



> Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long
overloading
> a driver would take.  If I wanted to see if something was
going to
> work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it
take to
> see if they fail?.
>   I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8
cyl TPI ecm
>   Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted.
> I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that
would be one
> clue.
> Cheers
> Bruce



From jpl_indigo7 at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 12 12:59:31 1999
From: jpl_indigo7 at hotmail.com (jimmy le)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:59:31 -0500
Subject: ca18det
Message-ID: <mailman.32069.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ive already done a lot of looking into this motor, I was once in the 
process of installing the turbo setup from the ca18 onto a ca20 motor... 
boing my 87 nissan 200sx.... in the us the ca18 came out in the pulsar 
gti and nx2000 gti's, all fwd and non turbo.  Here in the state the 
turbo 200sx came w/a ca18det no intercooler and was rwd, in japan the 
same motor came in the older 240sx being 89-90 and pulsars and efni's... 
what motor are you putting in what car??

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From pford at qnx.com  Tue Jan 12 13:42:39 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:42:39 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar
Message-ID: <mailman.32070.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Greg Hermann wrote:

> >> >
> >> >in the Ottawa Can. area it seems that if you didn't make the cop drop his
> >> >doughnut he wont bother you
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> In Colorado, if he spills his coffee, it's an equal number of points--go
> >> straight to jail if he does both!
> >>
> >> Greg
> >>
> > I thought in the 'States the cops could shoot you for that 8*))
> 
> They only act that way east of the Mississippi . East of the Sierra/Cascade
> crest and west of the 100th parallel, they don't ;even consider it, cuz
> they assume that even more lead might come back the other way!! :-)
> 

last time I was in Florida I got pulled over, them reached into the 
glove box for my wallet. when I turned back there was a pistol drawn and 
cocked. The cop later explained that if my car didn't have Canadain 
plate he probly would have shot me, and from then on to leave your hands 
on the wheel when stoped. Up here the cops don't like standing in the 
cold and most people don't have hand guns 

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From Cputter at sed.sun.ac.za  Tue Jan 12 13:44:19 1999
From: Cputter at sed.sun.ac.za (Putter C)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:44:19 -0500
Subject: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out)
Message-ID: <mailman.32071.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_000_01BE3E30.46DA3680
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi

I am not a expert on this, but if the ECU uses a current controlled driver
then it would force a constant current through a injector. This current is
the independant of the resistance and inductance of the injector. So if this
is the case then you can put as many injectors in series as possible ?! That
is if the turn-on current can be achieved by the voltage accross each
injector.

So the question is, what kind of driver are the ECU using, is it quasi
current controlled, open loop or square voltage driven?

Cheers
Carlo

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Roland Johansson [SMTP:scirocco at mail.bip.net]
> Sent:	Tuesday, January 12, 1999 12:02 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	SV: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out)
> 
> If you place a finger on the drive transistor/or several and
> start it with normal number of injektors, simulate full throttle
> for longest on times. The transistor/s should get wam but not
> burn your finger in about 10-15 minutes time, try with bigger
> number of injektors, if you burn your finger you will be closer
> to the limit, probobly over if out temp are high
> 
> This is not scientific but could give you a good estimation if
> it will work. If the drivers get what you think is to hot, try
> add a old computer fan and test again.
> 
> 
> Roland Johansson
> Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82
> 
> 
> 
> > Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long
> overloading
> > a driver would take.  If I wanted to see if something was
> going to
> > work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it
> take to
> > see if they fail?.
> >   I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8
> cyl TPI ecm
> >   Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted.
> > I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that
> would be one
> > clue.
> > Cheers
> > Bruce

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From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 12 14:39:26 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:39:26 -0500
Subject: air/fuel gauge
Message-ID: <mailman.32072.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Emmett <stanicki at cgocable.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 8:29 PM
Subject: air/fuel gauge

In the archives, there is a wealth of info., about O2 sensors (EGO, EGOR
are some topics).  
Bruce


>March Custom rodder has add for
>Dakota Digital air/fuel mixture gauge
>Displays mV, works with 1 to 3 wire EGO
>Phone 800-852-3228
>



From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Tue Jan 12 16:49:31 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:49:31 -0500
Subject: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out)
Message-ID: <mailman.32073.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  I would not worry about the current handling of the transistor that much
since the pulsed current rating is usually 5 times the 
  continuous rating. I would worry about the increased inductive kick when
the injector turns off. The zener diode that clamps this
energy may fail due to a higher voltage spike. The zener would degrade over
time and if it didn't short it would leave the transistor
 unprotected and the transistor would fail shortly after. Sooo beef up the
zener and everything should be fine , IMHO 
 
Don 



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Putter C [SMTP:Cputter at sed.sun.ac.za]
> Sent:	Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:34 AM
> To:	'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'
> Subject:	RE: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out)
> 
> Hi
> 
> I am not a expert on this, but if the ECU uses a current controlled driver
> then it would force a constant current through a injector. This current is
> the independant of the resistance and inductance of the injector. So if
> this is the case then you can put as many injectors in series as possible
> ?! That is if the turn-on current can be achieved by the voltage accross
> each injector.
> 
> So the question is, what kind of driver are the ECU using, is it quasi
> current controlled, open loop or square voltage driven?
> 
> Cheers
> Carlo
> 
> 	-----Original Message-----
> 	From:	Roland Johansson [SMTP:scirocco at mail.bip.net]
> 	Sent:	Tuesday, January 12, 1999 12:02 PM
> 	To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> 	Subject:	SV: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out)
> 
> 	If you place a finger on the drive transistor/or several and
> 	start it with normal number of injektors, simulate full throttle
> 	for longest on times. The transistor/s should get wam but not
> 	burn your finger in about 10-15 minutes time, try with bigger
> 	number of injektors, if you burn your finger you will be closer
> 	to the limit, probobly over if out temp are high
> 
> 	This is not scientific but could give you a good estimation if
> 	it will work. If the drivers get what you think is to hot, try
> 	add a old computer fan and test again.
> 
> 
> 	Roland Johansson
> 	Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82
> 
> 
> 
> 	> Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long
> 	overloading
> 	> a driver would take.  If I wanted to see if something was
> 	going to
> 	> work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it
> 	take to
> 	> see if they fail?.
> 	>   I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8
> 	cyl TPI ecm
> 	>   Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted.
> 	> I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that
> 	would be one
> 	> clue.
> 	> Cheers
> 	> Bruce


From alipper at cardozo.org  Tue Jan 12 18:32:21 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:32:21 -0500
Subject: EFI system plans.
Message-ID: <mailman.32074.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Mike, thanks for your interest.  I would very much be interested in further
developing the system into a marketable product.  As it is, it has all the
features of Holley's Projection Di and more (not including electronic
ignition).  In fact, I carefully examined the holley system when I
developed it.  It even reads in the lookup tables that the Holley system
uses and converts them to its own tables (which have greater resolution).

In general, the system runs quite well, with improved power and performance
right up to wide-open throttle.  The 8051 assembly work it needs is pretty
minimal (I did most of it, and this was my first experience with 8051).  I
hope I didn't scare people off with the warning about it not being a ready
to build and run system - this is a bit of an exaggeration as it's really
pretty complete, but it does require some knowledge of EFI and computers to
get it going.  What I posted was the basic info on the system, but I
certainly would be happy to provide more details for anyone who wishes.
Please send replies to both my email (efi at cardozo.org) and the newsgroup.
Thanks.

					Al

At 07:05 AM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi Al,
>
>I managed to download the files on your TBI EFI system and liked they way it
>was designed. I generally just get the DIY-EFI mail, read it and archive it
>in the hopes that some day I'll try my hand at building their EFI332 system,
>however your system I'm more familiar with, being it is an Intel 8031/32
>based system.  I haven't done any work with the 8031 in quite some time, but
>I'm familiar with its capabilities as a micorcontroller. If you ever plan on
>developing this system into a marketable system and need any more
>volunteers/victims for your system, I wouldn't mind helping out. I'm
>currently running the Holley Projection II system on a 1970 Bronco and I'm
>basically satisfied with it's design, but I ceartainly would like something
>that is more adaptable to the needs of off highway wheeling in the mountains
>(ie: changes in altitude). I don;tknow if you've had any replies to your
>email - by the looks of the DIY-EFI list(s), it appears they have ingored
>your post. Let me know if you plan on developing your system further - I can
>help in building/assembling electronic hardware and if pressed I can get
>back into relearing 803x assembly or basic.
>
>Michael J. Kupec
>mkupec at erols.com




From sganz at wgn.net  Tue Jan 12 19:37:50 1999
From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:37:50 -0500
Subject: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out)
Message-ID: <mailman.32075.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If the drivers are peak and hold style and the work as advertised, they
will do the peak, essentially until the trigger current is reached, the
hold at the hold current. So if you have 50 injectors you will only have
the hold current that the drive supports, so adding injectors is a waste O
time unless they are saturated types. I missed the start of the thread so
didn't get the reason for paralleling injectors, but you can't parallel
peak and hold style injectors, will not work as you think. Saturated
(15ohm) injectors will, and it just depends on the current capability of
the driver, and as you are trying to find out, how hot they will run. The
other thing to watch out for is that as you parallel the injector you also
increase the amount of current back into the flyback/clamp diode that is in
the circuit, so that is also another source of heat or problem.  Just some
food for thougth. 

Sandy

At 03:34 PM 1/12/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi
>
>I am not a expert on this, but if the ECU uses a current controlled driver
>then it would force a constant current through a injector. This current is
>the independant of the resistance and inductance of the injector. So if this
>is the case then you can put as many injectors in series as possible ?! That
>is if the turn-on current can be achieved by the voltage accross each
>injector.
>
>So the question is, what kind of driver are the ECU using, is it quasi
>current controlled, open loop or square voltage driven?
>
>Cheers
>Carlo
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:	Roland Johansson [SMTP:scirocco at mail.bip.net]
>> Sent:	Tuesday, January 12, 1999 12:02 PM
>> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> Subject:	SV: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out)
>> 
>> If you place a finger on the drive transistor/or several and
>> start it with normal number of injektors, simulate full throttle
>> for longest on times. The transistor/s should get wam but not
>> burn your finger in about 10-15 minutes time, try with bigger
>> number of injektors, if you burn your finger you will be closer
>> to the limit, probobly over if out temp are high
>> 
>> This is not scientific but could give you a good estimation if
>> it will work. If the drivers get what you think is to hot, try
>> add a old computer fan and test again.
>> 
>> 
>> Roland Johansson
>> Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long
>> overloading
>> > a driver would take.  If I wanted to see if something was
>> going to
>> > work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it
>> take to
>> > see if they fail?.
>> >   I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8
>> cyl TPI ecm
>> >   Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted.
>> > I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that
>> would be one
>> > clue.
>> > Cheers
>> > Bruce
>



From mpitts at netspeak.com  Tue Jan 12 20:43:29 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:43:29 -0500
Subject: Non Destructive testing (letting the smoke out)
Message-ID: <mailman.32076.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


What would be the effect of placing 3 saturated type 
injectors in parallel on one peak-n-hold driver?  

Will the peak function of the peak-n-hold driver be 
of benefit to opening the saturated injectors?

Do three 15 ohm injectors in parallel look like one 
5 ohm injector to the driver?

TIA,
-Mike

-----Original Message-----
<<Saturated (15ohm) injectors will, and it just depends 
on the current capability of the driver>>


From tc75918 at hprs9.msc.az.boeing.com  Tue Jan 12 20:53:59 1999
From: tc75918 at hprs9.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:53:59 -0500
Subject: Searchable archives question
Message-ID: <mailman.32077.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Who controls the archives for the list?  Would it be possible to change
the context (body) search to be a regexp instead of or-ing search
words together.  

It's next to useless for finding something if I have to wade through
700 messages because I can't narrow it down somewhat.

The Subject line search does use the regexp search which is why I ask.

thanks
--Dan


From tgordon at saginaw-city.k12.mi.us  Tue Jan 12 21:06:16 1999
From: tgordon at saginaw-city.k12.mi.us (Anthony Gordon)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:06:16 -0500
Subject: EFI system plans.
Message-ID: <mailman.32078.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Al,

I am currently using a lucas mechanical PI system and have been lurking on
the list for a while fooling to gain insight into converting the system to
EFI.  I woul welcome further info. and insights.

Thanks,

Tony Gordon

>get it going.  What I posted was the basic info on the system, but I
>certainly would be happy to provide more details for anyone who wishes.
>Please send replies to both my email (efi at cardozo.org) and the newsgroup.
>Thanks.
>
>					Al



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Tue Jan 12 21:51:37 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:51:37 -0500
Subject: Searchable archives question
Message-ID: <mailman.32079.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



d houlton x0710 wrote:
> 
> Who controls the archives for the list?  Would it be possible to change
> the context (body) search to be a regexp instead of or-ing search
> words together.
> 
> It's next to useless for finding something if I have to wade through
> 700 messages because I can't narrow it down somewhat.
> 
> The Subject line search does use the regexp search which is why I ask.
> 
> thanks
> --Dan

Dan, I maintain the WWW page, which includes the archive search. 
Improving the search engine is on my list of things to-do, but it hasn't
been done yet.  Basically there's a WAIS server that indexes and
searches the archive files, and something called SFgate that is an
interface between WAIS and the WWW page.  I don't know anything about
either of those so there's a steep learning curve to make this change.

If there's a WAIS or SFgate expert somewhere on the list, then speak up
'cause this is somewhere that I could use some help.

--steve


From wsherwin at idirect.com  Wed Jan 13 00:44:16 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:44:16 -0500
Subject: Non Destructive testing (letting the smoke out)
Message-ID: <mailman.32080.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>What would be the effect of placing 3 saturated type
>injectors in parallel on one peak-n-hold driver?





Three parallel injectors (@15 ohms & 3mH each) will give you an equivalent
circuit of 5 ohms & 1mH.   The "RL" combination of the equivalent circuit
versus the electrical characteristics of the injector current driver is what
is most important to you.  A peak&hold driver, GM 4/1 amp for instance,
must
"sense" 4 amps before transitioning to 1 amp of holding current.   Other
manufacturer's drivers have other current ratings, and may include
transition
timers which override the current considerations.  Two questions must
usually
be answered before deciding whether things will work/last.............1)can
the
current driver ever sense "4" amps through your new equivalent circuit,
and.................2)how "long" will it take for said circuit to build up
to "4" amps?

The first question is governed by I=E/R, or in our case 13.8volts/5ohms.
So, in our example, even with a good battery  we will never reach the 4 amp
transition and chances are pretty good that the driver will burn out
prematurely because it is not rated for significant use at levels over 1
amp.
In this example, the attainable current will be 2.76 amps or less.

The second question is governed by the "RL" time constant of our equivalent
circuit.  The current buildup of an "RL" circuit (which injectors are)  is
based on I=[E/R -(E/R * exp ((-Rt/L)))].  Basically,  saturated injectors
require
opening currents of 3+ amps for about 1ms, in order to ensure that the
injector
opens against mechanical inertia and hydraulic pressure.  Our example
parallel circuit will never transition from 4 to 1 amp (see above), so this
is
irrelevant.  But, you should run the numbers for your case, if you plan to
adhere
to peak&hold control.  If the peak&hold transition happens well before 1ms
(for saturated injectors) then chances are that your saturated
injectors will not open, especially in the presence of increased fuel
pressure.




>
>Will the peak function of the peak-n-hold driver be
>of benefit to opening the saturated injectors?



Depends upon what flavour of peak&hold driver that you have (see above).


>
>Do three 15 ohm injectors in parallel look like one
>5 ohm injector to the driver?


Sort of.  See above.  You should also include a series resistance of about
.5ohms, to account for line voltage drop and a "sensing" resistor.



If you want to mix/match injectors and drivers then it is usually best to
use
an external injector current driver box.  With such a setup, the OE driver
"triggers" an input signal for the external driver, and the external driver
(presumably peak&hold) drives the injector.  Accel have such a product,
under the name "VIC", or Variable Injector Controller.  Or, you could build
your own external driver circuit from industrial components.




Bye;
Walt.




From wsherwin at idirect.com  Wed Jan 13 00:57:44 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:57:44 -0500
Subject: Non Distructive testing (letting the smoke out)
Message-ID: <mailman.32081.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>




>Nother thing, what would be a "safe test" for how long overloading
>a driver would take.  If I wanted to see if something was going to
>work on injector drivers, how long in running them would it take to
>see if they fail?.
>  I have two items to test, running 16 injectors off of a 8 cyl TPI ecm
>  Running 4 P+H injectors where 2 are normally fittted.
>I would figure if the ecm gets only warm to the touch that would be one
>clue.
>Cheers
>Bruce



You've got two choices, either...........1)calculate the "RL" equivalent of
your new circuit, and deduce whether or not things will work with the
current driver that you have, or..........2)run your setup on a test bench.
Test bench time should be proportional to real world operating time.

Personally, I'd use an external injector driver, either purchased
"off-the-shelf" or homemade.

Bye;
Walt.



From sganz at wgn.net  Wed Jan 13 01:11:51 1999
From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:11:51 -0500
Subject: Non Destructive testing (letting the smoke out)
Message-ID: <mailman.32082.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The problem is that if you have a hold current of 1 amp, and the each of
the injectors takes 1 amp, the drive will hold the current at 1 amp, even
if their is a dead short (until the drive smokes). So will not work very
will. I slipped up in the comment on the first email about adding saturated
injectors, it still will not work. Peak and hold drivers work something
like this, it dumps the full voltage current into the injector, since the
injector is around 2 ohms, you get a very fast reaction, but the current if
left on for very long would smoke the coil, so after the initial quick zap,
the current is reduced to a safe level by some feedback that has a fixed
value, might be 1 amp, so as you add more injectors in parallel the current
will hold at 1 amp, and each injector will be getting less, in the case of
2 injectors, each would get 1/2 amp hold.  Saturated injectors are
basically a switch, so you can (within limits of the device) add additional
Saturated injectors.

Yes, pretty much 3 15 ohm injectors will look like one 5 ohm. BUT if you
are driving them with a satruated type, the power problem will not be that
bad, as the transistor is operating like a switch the  amount of power that
is dissipated in heat will be much much less then a saturated type. You
will still need to check for over heating as it may be designed with
minimal heat sinking, but you could easily fix that! Again as long as the
drive can deal with the extra current, you should be ok, just need to get
rid of the extra heat

Sandy


At 03:43 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>What would be the effect of placing 3 saturated type 
>injectors in parallel on one peak-n-hold driver?  
>
>Will the peak function of the peak-n-hold driver be 
>of benefit to opening the saturated injectors?
>
>Do three 15 ohm injectors in parallel look like one 
>5 ohm injector to the driver?
>
>TIA,
>-Mike
>
>-----Original Message-----
><<Saturated (15ohm) injectors will, and it just depends 
>on the current capability of the driver>>



From sfeaver at cgocable.net  Wed Jan 13 01:38:59 1999
From: sfeaver at cgocable.net (Scott Feaver)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:38:59 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32083.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Has anyone ever used a GM gage package in anything that they have adapted to
EFI?

The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90
Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird.  The difference is the 90 is a four cylinder
car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6.  The tach is reading about 50% higher in the V6
(which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to see, it receives
three).

If there is no simple solution, does anyone have a circuit that will delete
every third pulse from the spark module?  I don't know what voltage the
signal is, but it is a 3.1V6 with the distributorless 3-coil module.  Since
there fairly common, i'm hoping someone knows ;)

Thanks,
Scott



From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Wed Jan 13 01:40:06 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:40:06 -0500
Subject: Searchable archives question
Message-ID: <mailman.32084.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> Who controls the archives for the list?  Would it be possible to
-> change the context (body) search to be a regexp instead of or-ing
-> search words together.

 Just download the actual text to your local drive and use your own
tools.  Works much better than any of that Web stuff.
              


From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 13 02:27:55 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:27:55 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32085.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Feaver <sfeaver at cgocable.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 9:00 PM
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels


>Has anyone ever used a GM gage package in anything that they have adapted
to
>EFI?

I'm not an EE, but it is an air-core meter using a National Semiconductor
driver, 1949 comes to mind.  If you can't find
it it has been mentioned in the archives.
Bruce
>
>The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90
>Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird.  The difference is the 90 is a four cylinder
>car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6.  The tach is reading about 50% higher in the V6
>(which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to see, it
receives
>three).
>
>If there is no simple solution, does anyone have a circuit that will delete
>every third pulse from the spark module?  I don't know what voltage the
>signal is, but it is a 3.1V6 with the distributorless 3-coil module.  Since
>there fairly common, i'm hoping someone knows ;)
>
>Thanks,
>Scott
>



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Wed Jan 13 02:35:15 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:35:15 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32086.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 08:38 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Has anyone ever used a GM gage package in anything that they have adapted to
>EFI?
>
>The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90
>Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird.  The difference is the 90 is a four cylinder
>car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6.  The tach is reading about 50% higher in the V6
>(which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to see, it receives
>three).
>
>If there is no simple solution, does anyone have a circuit that will delete
>every third pulse from the spark module?  I don't know what voltage the
>signal is, but it is a 3.1V6 with the distributorless 3-coil module.  Since
>there fairly common, i'm hoping someone knows ;)

Scott,
Usually there is a resistor to be changed in a tach for the number of
cyls... not sure if the dash's had a switch or jumper or socketed resistor,
but I can't see them using 2 different tachs for the same year, different
engine... I'd pull the guage cluster and check around the tach circuitry.
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Wed Jan 13 04:47:01 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:47:01 -0500
Subject: EFI reference books - updated information
Message-ID: <mailman.32087.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Group,

I have just ordered the following 2 books:

Understanding Automotive Electronics
&
Ford Fuel Injection......


The reference list needs to be updated for the book by "Ribbens, William 
B., Mansour Norman P., et al, Understanding Automotive electronics"
The current information is: Fifth Edition ISBN 0768002117.

I will post a review after digesting the information.

/Marc



From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Wed Jan 13 04:52:59 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:52:59 -0500
Subject: More book info.....
Message-ID: <mailman.32088.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I missed adding the following information;

The ISBN # for "Automotive Sensors by M.H. Westbrook and J.D Turner" is 0750302933.

Current cost is $ 162.00.




From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Wed Jan 13 04:59:19 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:59:19 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32089.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Usually tach's use a RC circuit to integrate the ignition pulses into an 
average DC voltage which drive the actual meter, I suggest tracing out the 
tach's internal circuitry and finding the RC network. Repalcing the fixed 
resistor with a pot and calibrate the tach using a reference tach will get 
you going.

----------
From: 	Scott Feaver[SMTP:sfeaver at cgocable.net]
Sent: 	January 12, 1999 6:38 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Factory Instrument Panels

Has anyone ever used a GM gage package in anything that they have adapted 
to
EFI?

The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90
Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird.  The difference is the 90 is a four cylinder
car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6.  The tach is reading about 50% higher in the V6
(which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to see, it 
receives
three).

If there is no simple solution, does anyone have a circuit that will delete
every third pulse from the spark module?  I don't know what voltage the
signal is, but it is a 3.1V6 with the distributorless 3-coil module.  Since
there fairly common, i'm hoping someone knows ;)

Thanks,
Scott




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From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Wed Jan 13 05:12:27 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:12:27 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32090.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Howday

The GM tach uses the National aircore drive. It is in the
National special book. Also there are several diagrams

I think one of the JTR books showes how to change
from a 4 cy to a 6 to a 8. If memory serves me right
there is a resistor ic pack with the pertinent resistors

gl:peter




From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Wed Jan 13 07:17:27 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:17:27 -0500
Subject: Uploaded BIN to FTP
Message-ID: <mailman.32091.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi All,

For those who are interested I've uploaded a BIN to the DIY_FTP /incoming
dir.
The file is called VS_BSTK1451 (V6).BIN

It's from a 95/96 model VS Holden Commodore.
PCM is a #16210672, 3.8L V6, 4Spd Electronic Auto, Memcal uses 27010 (32
pin) ROM.

Regards

Ross Myers



From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Wed Jan 13 07:39:22 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:39:22 -0500
Subject: GM TACH Cont.
Message-ID: <mailman.32092.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Howday all

The National Air core meter chip is the LM1819.
I have fixed a few GM tachs replacing this chip..

The National web site I believe has online data sheets.

gl:peter




From tparker at nznet.gen.nz  Wed Jan 13 11:33:28 1999
From: tparker at nznet.gen.nz (Tom Parker)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 06:33:28 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.32093.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net> wrote:

>I am not worried about the torque multiplication.  I am just happy if
>the torque convertor is slipping enough to put me at a higher torque
>position on the engine.  Probably before the TCC was locking up at
>somewhere around peak torque, now my peak torque is higher, I guess I
>should lock it around peak engine torque.

I know virtually nothing about automatics, but if I had such a cammy engine
with a manual box, then I would just wring it out further before changing
gear. In my mini I slip the clutch and/or the wheels at about 3500-4000 rpm
until the wheels stop slipping, and the wring it out to 7000 or so. Changing
gear, even with a standard gearbox still keeps me in the power band.

Why can't you just move the shift points of the auto? I suppose they must be
difficult to change or you would have done it already, right?

--
Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/



From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Wed Jan 13 12:26:22 1999
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:26:22 -0500
Subject: Stepper Motors
Message-ID: <mailman.32094.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks for all the input on stepper motors.  Am working on putting together a
very simple fly by wire system and needed a certain way of setting small
valves.  Thanks again for the info.

1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant

Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Wed Jan 13 13:27:33 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:27:33 -0500
Subject: Fwd: ECM Module Help #1226823
Message-ID: <mailman.32095.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is from another list I'm on...
Anyone know what these are?


>X-Sender: machusak at popd.ix.netcom.com
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 06:41:13 -0500
>To: gnttype at gnttype.org
>From: Jeffrey Machusak <machusak at tbrg.com>
>Subject: ECM Module Help #1226823
>Sender: owner-gnttype at gnttype.org
>Reply-To: gnttype at gnttype.org
>
>I have several ECM Modules with the part # 1226823.  Does anybody what
>these are?  I can't find the number anywhere.
>
>
>Thanks
>Jeff

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Wed Jan 13 13:44:56 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:44:56 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32096.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

David, you should have the check today or tomorrow.  The instrument panel I
got to change my truck over to a tach has a
resistor on the back mounted in two clips.    Don 

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	David A. Cooley [SMTP:n5xmt at bellsouth.net]
> Sent:	Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:35 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Factory Instrument Panels
> 
> At 08:38 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Has anyone ever used a GM gage package in anything that they have adapted
> to
> >EFI?
> >
> >The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90
> >Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird.  The difference is the 90 is a four
> cylinder
> >car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6.  The tach is reading about 50% higher in the
> V6
> >(which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to see, it
> receives
> >three).
> >
> >If there is no simple solution, does anyone have a circuit that will
> delete
> >every third pulse from the spark module?  I don't know what voltage the
> >signal is, but it is a 3.1V6 with the distributorless 3-coil module.
> Since
> >there fairly common, i'm hoping someone knows ;)
> 
> Scott,
> Usually there is a resistor to be changed in a tach for the number of
> cyls... not sure if the dash's had a switch or jumper or socketed
> resistor,
> but I can't see them using 2 different tachs for the same year, different
> engine... I'd pull the guage cluster and check around the tach circuitry.
> ===========================================================
>            David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>      Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>        I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be
> approximated.
> ===========================================================


From ECMnut at aol.com  Wed Jan 13 15:07:09 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:07:09 -0500
Subject: ECM Module Help #1226823
Message-ID: <mailman.32097.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Dave,
It's not in my book, which covers 81-93 GM..
Any other possible (161xxxx, 160xxxx, 122xxxx) numbers on it?
Mike V


From ECMnut at aol.com  Wed Jan 13 15:22:54 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:22:54 -0500
Subject: ECM Module Help #1226823
Message-ID: <mailman.32098.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I couldn't find it in a book that lists Yankee cars.
It may be a valid number elsewhere..
HTH
Mike V


From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Wed Jan 13 15:36:44 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:36:44 -0500
Subject: Fp regulator mods (HELP)
Message-ID: <mailman.32099.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  I have contacted Hydraulics Analysis in Corinth Miss. and asked them about the industrial control valve with balanced port.  Here is what he said:  He had never heard of a balanced port, not that it didn't exist, just that he didn't know what it was.
  The minimum pressure for the valves were 500psi.
  He asked if the it was a three port valve: in, out, pilot.
  I read, to him, Greg's description of a balanced port valve and he didn't know what that was and asked if a pilot operated valve was the same as balanced port valve.  He said that the problem may be in semantics, that it could be called something else.
  He said he would check through his books and see what he could find; I am to call he back tomorrow.
  Can anybody give me some more specific information on finding a pilot operated industrial control valve with balanced ports??  

At 08:31 PM 1/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 03:21 PM 1/11/99 -0700, Greg wrote:
>>(snip)
>>>Another possibility, if you want REALLY accurate control, would be to
>>>REDUCE the size of the port
>>
>>    Which port; return, input or valve?
>
>The valve port.
>>
>>>in the Mallory valve down to about .060"
>
>Maybe .125", tho.
>
>>>diameter (with a bushing), get the control rate the way you want it as
>>>discussed above, and then use the Mallory regulator as a PILOT valve to
>>>operate an industrial grade control valve with a BALANCED port,
>
>Basically, the valve is arranged so that motion of the valve's plug so as
>to open or close its port is neither resisted not aided by the pressure
>differential across the valve.
>>
>>    Please explain how a BALANCED port works.
>
>What the above means is that it takes very little force to move the valve's
>plug through its full range from open to closed.
>
>>    Also, would the Mallory return port feed the IGCValve?  I am having
>>trouble SEEING the final product; how would the fuel get back to the tank?
>>
>
>The output flow from the Mallory valve, acting as a pilot valve is what
>would open the main valve against a fairly light spring. You would pipe the
>output of the Mallory valve to the actuator port of the main valve.
>Usually, the main valve will have an internal orifice which bleeds this
>actuation pressure to the return line, but the bleed orifice can also be
>piped external to the main valve. Basically, when the fuel pressure is high
>enough to open the pilot valve, the relief flow through the pilot valve
>acts to open the main valve. If the fuel pressure drops below the control
>point, the main valve closes in response to the lack of relief flow from
>the pilot valve.
>>
>>
>>>and with said port sized correctly for your particular flow situation!! >Said
>>>industrial valves in the size range we are talking about would prolly set
>>>you back about one portrait of Ben (otherwise known as a "fun coupon"!!)
>>
>>    Where can I get a balanced port industrial valve and how do I explain
>>to them what I want?
>
>I think I would be inclined to pick one intended for use to control
>refrigerant flow, since refrigeration systems very commonly use their own
>refrigerant to operate the system's control valves--they do it this way in
>order to minimize the number of packings, etc. which might leak refrigerant
>to the atmosphere--which is just what you want with a fuel system. These
>valves are even OK to use with propane (it is sometimes used as a
>refrigerant, particularly in refineries, where it doesn't much matter if
>there is one more thing around to go BOOM!!).
>
>Manufacturers of sontrol valves intended for use with refrigerants include
>Parker/Refrigerating Specialties, Alco, Sporlan, Hubbell, Hansen/Danfoss,
>Phillips. The valves can generally be had in either brass or ductile iron
>(iron only in sizes way bigger than we would be interested in.) Be happy to
>try to pick out a couple of part numbers if numbers are available as to
>fuel flow, pump size, etc. A typical  HVAC&R wholesaler would be an
>appropriate place to order/buy one. Some of the mfgr's will sell direct.
>Get hold off list, and I will see if I can dig up a copy of a sectional
>view of a valve like I am talking about to clear up your picture.
>>
>>>Regards, Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Wed Jan 13 15:46:29 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:46:29 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.32100.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On 14 Jan 1999, Tom Parker wrote:

> Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net> wrote:
> 
> >I am not worried about the torque multiplication.  I am just happy if
> >the torque convertor is slipping enough to put me at a higher torque
> >position on the engine.  Probably before the TCC was locking up at
> >somewhere around peak torque, now my peak torque is higher, I guess I
> >should lock it around peak engine torque.
> 
> I know virtually nothing about automatics, but if I had such a cammy engine
> with a manual box, then I would just wring it out further before changing
> gear. In my mini I slip the clutch and/or the wheels at about 3500-4000 rpm
> until the wheels stop slipping, and the wring it out to 7000 or so. Changing
> gear, even with a standard gearbox still keeps me in the power band.
> 
> Why can't you just move the shift points of the auto? I suppose they must be
> difficult to change or you would have done it already, right?
> 
The shift points are hard to change, supposely change springs by trial
and error.   I manually shift it with a shift light, and I believe I
am already shifting at the optimal point.  If I raise the shift point
200 rpm then I seem to go slower.  I have tested several times, and
the optimal shift light settings is at 6000, which means by the time I
shift it and the tranny finished that the engine has hit 6300-6400
rpm.  I have looked at the settings and the idea is to lock the TCC
high in 2nd and give me a few more mph in 2nd.  It looks like it
should give me 6 more mph before needing to shift.  I have devised a
way to do it without adding any code.  I will just need to change a
branch statement , and adjust some data.  I figure since it is already
locking up at WOT there should not be any more power at WOT in 2nd
than in 3rd where the factory already has it lockup.  Also as I play
to set it up it wil unlock when it goes into 3rd.

			Roger




From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Jan 13 16:37:47 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:37:47 -0500
Subject: Handy reference
Message-ID: <mailman.32101.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This page seems to link to summaries of factory service bulletins.

http://www.chekchart.com/direct.html

Shannen



From kv at us.ibm.com  Wed Jan 13 16:57:39 1999
From: kv at us.ibm.com (kv at us.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:57:39 -0500
Subject: Option Codes (Off Topic)
Message-ID: <mailman.32102.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>





Has anyone seen a listing (or know how I can get one) of the three digit
"option codes" and their associated options for a given vehicle?

I have a new (used) car and am wondering what the thing came with.

________________________________________________
  Kevin Vannorsdel     IBM Arm Electronics Development
   408-256-6492                Tie 276-6492     kv at us.ibm.com




From amattei at mindspring.com  Wed Jan 13 17:28:33 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:28:33 -0500
Subject: Option Codes (Off Topic)
Message-ID: <mailman.32103.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Assuming you've got a GM car (RPO codes), the Grand National page has
quite a bit of info (at http://ni.umd.edu/gnttype/www/rpo.html), or my
friend MadMike has most RPO codes for '67-92 Camaros at
http://www.nastyz28.com - under the "Camaro and Z28 info". There's other
stuff out there, but these are the 2 sites I know of immediately.

HTH,

-Andrew

kv at us.ibm.com wrote:
> 
> Has anyone seen a listing (or know how I can get one) of the three digit
> "option codes" and their associated options for a given vehicle?
> 
> I have a new (used) car and am wondering what the thing came with.


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Wed Jan 13 17:29:36 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:29:36 -0500
Subject: Option Codes (Off Topic)
Message-ID: <mailman.32104.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 kv at us.ibm.com wrote:
> 
> Has anyone seen a listing (or know how I can get one) of the three digit
> "option codes" and their associated options for a given vehicle?
> 
> I have a new (used) car and am wondering what the thing came with.
> 
On the GM cars it is generally in the factory service manual (helm).
If someone else on the list has the vehicle and year and a factory
service manual then they could tell you, or if you can get access to
a factory service manual.

			Roger



From rhoads at adi.com  Wed Jan 13 19:05:10 1999
From: rhoads at adi.com (David Rhoads)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:05:10 -0500
Subject: Injector Selection
Message-ID: <mailman.32105.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'm trying to track down a suitable set of injectors for the following,
any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

apprx 19 lb/hr, 2.5gm/s ... @ apprx 40psi
preferrably Peak & hold for a Port injection setup.
I'll need to know the resistance for driver circuitry.
Another preferance would be a cone valve with a narrow spray pattern.

Application, manufacturer and part # is also needed for the folks at the
parts counter.

Most of the information that I've been able to find on the www
seems to be missing at least one piece of this info.  Most tech
departments aren't willing/able to provide the info needed for even
thier own products.  Go figure!

TIA

-- 
. David Rhoads II  
. Applied Dynamics International
. 3800 Stone School Road, Ann Arbor, Mi 48108
. (734) 973-1300                                                
. rhoads at adi.com   website:  www.adi.com


From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Jan 13 19:07:35 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:07:35 -0500
Subject: Option Codes (Off Topic)
Message-ID: <mailman.32106.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If it's GM, I can sometimes help.  Also, there are "option code" books
which seem to float all around the dealership parts and service
departments.  Be aware, option code can change from year to year (look
at LT1 for example)

Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Has anyone seen a listing (or know how I can get one) of the three digit
> "option codes" and their associated options for a given vehicle?
> 
> I have a new (used) car and am wondering what the thing came with.
> 
> ________________________________________________
>   Kevin Vannorsdel     IBM Arm Electronics Development
>    408-256-6492                Tie 276-6492     kv at us.ibm.com



From jsg at donet.com  Wed Jan 13 20:16:33 1999
From: jsg at donet.com (jsg at donet.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:16:33 -0500
Subject: Searchable archives question
Message-ID: <mailman.32107.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

|Who controls the archives for the list?  Would it be possible to change
|the context (body) search to be a regexp instead of or-ing search
|words together.  

The or-ing is the default... you can do things like

  (schematic OR diagram) AND driver AND stepper

The directions on using that should be changed.

john


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Wed Jan 13 21:35:28 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:35:28 -0500
Subject: Injector Selection
Message-ID: <mailman.32108.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi David

Stock 5.0 mustang and 5.0 gm TPI should fill your bill although
they are saturated.

GL;peter





David Rhoads <rhoads at adi.com> on 01/13/99 11:04:34 AM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To:      diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu                      
                                                              
 cc:      sdscott at engin.umich.edu, desander at umich.edu(bcc:    
          Peter Fenske/BCIT)                                  
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: Injector Selection                                  
                                                              








I'm trying to track down a suitable set of injectors for the following,
any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

apprx 19 lb/hr, 2.5gm/s ... @ apprx 40psi
preferrably Peak & hold for a Port injection setup.
I'll need to know the resistance for driver circuitry.
Another preferance would be a cone valve with a narrow spray pattern.

Application, manufacturer and part # is also needed for the folks at the
parts counter.

Most of the information that I've been able to find on the www
seems to be missing at least one piece of this info.  Most tech
departments aren't willing/able to provide the info needed for even
thier own products.  Go figure!

TIA

--
. David Rhoads II
. Applied Dynamics International
. 3800 Stone School Road, Ann Arbor, Mi 48108
. (734) 973-1300
. rhoads at adi.com   website:  www.adi.com





From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 13 22:18:45 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:18:45 -0500
Subject: Injector Selection
Message-ID: <mailman.32109.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01BE3F19.3B77ECC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Fenske <pfenske at bcit.bc.ca>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: Injector Selection

Sorry to do it this way, but, it's the only way I have to get the info..
out..
Steve R  ya wanna post this at the archives?.
Cheers
Bruce


>
>
>Hi David
>
>Stock 5.0 mustang and 5.0 gm TPI should fill your bill although
>they are saturated.
>
>GL;peter
>
>
>
>
>
>David Rhoads <rhoads at adi.com> on 01/13/99 11:04:34 AM
>
>Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>
>
>
> To:      diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
>
> cc:      sdscott at engin.umich.edu, desander at umich.edu(bcc:
>          Peter Fenske/BCIT)
>
>
>
> Subject: Injector Selection
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I'm trying to track down a suitable set of injectors for the following,
>any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
>apprx 19 lb/hr, 2.5gm/s ... @ apprx 40psi
>preferrably Peak & hold for a Port injection setup.
>I'll need to know the resistance for driver circuitry.
>Another preferance would be a cone valve with a narrow spray pattern.
>
>Application, manufacturer and part # is also needed for the folks at the
>parts counter.
>
>Most of the information that I've been able to find on the www
>seems to be missing at least one piece of this info.  Most tech
>departments aren't willing/able to provide the info needed for even
>thier own products.  Go figure!
>
>TIA
>
>--
>. David Rhoads II
>. Applied Dynamics International
>. 3800 Stone School Road, Ann Arbor, Mi 48108
>. (734) 973-1300
>. rhoads at adi.com   website:  www.adi.com
>
>
>

------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01BE3F19.3B77ECC0
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Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="ford.txt.txt"



Flow       PSI  Resist Mfg.   Part    Color  Application

1.76 (14)  ??    2.25 Bosch  E3EE-BA  Blue   1983     1.6L
1.76 (14)  ??    2.35 ND     E4EE-AA  Blue   1984     1.6L
1.76 (14)  30   16.20 ND     E59E-AB  Gray   1985-6   2.3L Truck, 5.0L =
SEFI
1.76 (14)  33   14.50 Bosch  E67C-AB  Gray   1986     2.9L, 3.0L
1.76 (14)  33   14.50 Bosch  E67E-BB  Gray   1986     5.0L SEFI
2.45 (19)  40    2.25 Bosch  E6EE-AB  White  1985-6   1.9L
2.45 (19)  32   16.20 ND     E6TE-AB  Gold   1986     5.0L HO SEFI
2.45 (19)  33   16.20 DKK    E5TE-AB  Gold   1985-6   5.0L Truck
2.45 (19)  33   14.50 Bosch  E5TE-BB  Gold   1986     5.8L Truck
3.00 (23)  ??    2.40 Bosch  E4EX-AA  Black  1984-5   1.6L Turbo
3.86 (30) 35-45  2.40 Bosch  E3ZE-BA  Green  1983     2.3L Turbo
3.86 (30) 35-45  2.35 DKK    E4ZE-AA  Green  1984     2.3L Turbo
4.41 (35) 35-45  2.35 DKK    E5ZE-AB  Gold   1985-6   2.3L Turbo
4.54 (37)  40    2.25 Bosch  E3VE-A1A Green  1984-6   3.8L CFI
4.54 (37)  40    2.0  ND     E3VE-A2A Green  1984-6   3.8L CFI
5.81 (46)  33    2.40 Bosch  EOSE-A1A Blue   1980-3   5.0L CFI
5.81 (46)  33    2.00 ND     EOSE-A2A Blue   1983-4   5.0L CFI
5.81 (46)  33    2.25 Bosch  EOSE-A1A Blue   1984     5.0L CFI
6.60 (52)  32    2.25 Bosch  E4ZE-CA  Gray   1984-5   5.0L HO CFI
7.00 (56)  16    1.40 Bosch  E43E-AC  Blue   1985-6   2.3L HSC
8.00 (64)  16    1.40 Bosch  E53E-AB  Green  1985-6   2.3L HO HSC, 2.5L =
HSC

The flow rate is gm/sec and lb/hr in parenthesis.  The resistance is =
obvious.
The manufacturer is next, I think ND is Nippondeso (sp?), I can't place =
DKK.
The part number is constructed as follows.  All injectors carry a basic =
part
number 9F593, which is prefixed with a production release, and followed =
by
a revision/application code.  For example E3EE-BA from the table will be
E3EE-9F593-BA to your local dealer.  The tops of the injectors are color
coded, as a quick check to the technician to make sure an engine =
contains the
"same" injectors.  I included some sample applications which may help =
the
dealer if you are buying new, or yourself if scrounging in a junk yard.
I don't know what was used for the density of the fuel.  I typically use
0.79 (rounded up to 0.8 for "quickie" calculations), and I have seen =
John
use 0.775 for "racing" fuel.





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From wsherwin at idirect.com  Wed Jan 13 22:45:05 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:45:05 -0500
Subject: Injector Selection
Message-ID: <mailman.32110.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Dave, Kinsler Fuel Injection is right in your backyard and they have a
tremendous selection of injectors.  They are also quite helpful people.
You can look them up at 1-248-362-1145 in Troy, Michigan.




-----Original Message-----
From: David Rhoads <rhoads at adi.com>
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Cc: sdscott at engin.umich.edu <sdscott at engin.umich.edu>; desander at umich.edu
<desander at umich.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11:56 AM
Subject: Injector Selection


>I'm trying to track down a suitable set of injectors for the following,
>any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
>apprx 19 lb/hr, 2.5gm/s ... @ apprx 40psi
>preferrably Peak & hold for a Port injection setup.
>I'll need to know the resistance for driver circuitry.
>Another preferance would be a cone valve with a narrow spray pattern.
>
>Application, manufacturer and part # is also needed for the folks at the
>parts counter.
>
>Most of the information that I've been able to find on the www
>seems to be missing at least one piece of this info.  Most tech
>departments aren't willing/able to provide the info needed for even
>thier own products.  Go figure!
>
>TIA
>
>--
>. David Rhoads II
>. Applied Dynamics International
>. 3800 Stone School Road, Ann Arbor, Mi 48108
>. (734) 973-1300
>. rhoads at adi.com   website:  www.adi.com



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Wed Jan 13 23:30:44 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:30:44 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32111.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi all, I joined the list to gain more info on EFI operations
and maybe a little knowledge, If I don't get lost too quickly!

I have a 1987 Monte Carlo SS as a pet project. I recently
installed a built 406 and I've been contemplating an EFI swap.
Well, I stumbled onto a TPI setup from a 1985 5.0 Camaro and
contemplation time seems to be over :)

The 406 flows A WHOLE LOT MORE AIR than the 5.0 so I know I
need to use larger injectors. My guess was 28-32 Lb units but
I'm not sure. I've spoken with a few places about a custom
chip for the ECM but everyone seems to carry "Off the Shelf"
chips instead of doing any custom work. I'm unsure of my
options at this point.

Charles


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Wed Jan 13 23:42:11 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:42:11 -0500
Subject: Injector Selection
Message-ID: <mailman.32112.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Fenske <pfenske at bcit.bc.ca>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 4:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Injector Selection
> 
> Sorry to do it this way, but, it's the only way I have to get the info..
> out..
> Steve R  ya wanna post this at the archives?.
> Cheers
> Bruce

Done, look under Ford in the "OEM systems" section

--steve


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Wed Jan 13 23:45:17 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:45:17 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32113.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Charles Brooks wrote:

> Hi all, I joined the list to gain more info on EFI operations
> and maybe a little knowledge, If I don't get lost too quickly!
> 
> I have a 1987 Monte Carlo SS as a pet project. I recently
> installed a built 406 and I've been contemplating an EFI swap.
> Well, I stumbled onto a TPI setup from a 1985 5.0 Camaro and
> contemplation time seems to be over :)
> 
> The 406 flows A WHOLE LOT MORE AIR than the 5.0 so I know I
> need to use larger injectors. My guess was 28-32 Lb units but
> I'm not sure. I've spoken with a few places about a custom
> chip for the ECM but everyone seems to carry "Off the Shelf"
> chips instead of doing any custom work. I'm unsure of my
> options at this point.
> 
> Charles
> 
I don't think a 5.0 intake will flow enough air to feed a 406.  That
will be your major restriction.  There are aftermarket (ACCEL) intake
manifolds that should flow the required amounts but aren't cheap. 

On the custom chips, there are people on this list reverse engineering
their chips and determine what addresses need to be adjusted to get
the needed performance.  I am working on my 93 Z28 computer.

				Roger
				93 Z28



From ludis at cruzers.com  Wed Jan 13 23:56:01 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:56:01 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32114.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

"Scott Feaver" <sfeaver at cgocable.net> wrote:
> The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90
> Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird.  The difference is the 90 is a four cylinder
> car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6.  The tach is reading about 50% higher in the V6
> (which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to see, it receives
> three).

As other's have mentioned, GM likes to use the NatSemi chip.  GM's
circuit is almost the same as the schematic in NatSemi's data sheet.  An
RC combination calibrates the tach.  I doubt you can find a temperature
stable capacitor of the correct value.  So you should change the
resistor.  On the tach circuit board you'll find a thin (thick?) film
resistor pack (in a DIP package).  The resistor element on the top layer
is the calibration element.  You'll notice it is laser trimmed/cut. 
You'll need to bypass this resistor with your own.

What's the redline on the 2.0turbo tach?  The 3.1 might need a different
limit - probably 6000 rpm.  Of course this is just an instrumentation
issue.  The tach redline needn't agree with the ECM redline.

"David A. Cooley" <n5xmt at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Usually there is a resistor to be changed in a tach for the number of
> cyls... not sure if the dash's had a switch or jumper or socketed resistor,
> but I can't see them using 2 different tachs for the same year, different
> engine...

Wanna bet?  A parts book shows eight different tachs used in one model
of car over a five year range.  (L4 vs V6, US vs Canada, non-backlit vs
backlit, w/ oil gauge vs w/ volt gauge vs w/ no gauge)

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/



From dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us  Thu Jan 14 00:19:23 1999
From: dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us (David Sagers)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:19:23 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32115.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In putting a TPI on a 406 the factory settings work just fine with the 28 lbs injectors, but a built motor is very different than a stock motor.

For a stock 406 28 lb injectors are all that's needed.  If it's built the perhaps a 30 lb.  Also consider finding a programable system so that you can dial in the fuel & ignition curves to match your cam, headers, etc...  I would look for a computer that can be programmed from a lap top while you drive.  Other members can tell you how to burn new chips.  It's your choice.


>>> Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net> 01/13 4:30 PM >>>
Hi all, I joined the list to gain more info on EFI operations
and maybe a little knowledge, If I don't get lost too quickly!

I have a 1987 Monte Carlo SS as a pet project. I recently
installed a built 406 and I've been contemplating an EFI swap.
Well, I stumbled onto a TPI setup from a 1985 5.0 Camaro and
contemplation time seems to be over :)

The 406 flows A WHOLE LOT MORE AIR than the 5.0 so I know I
need to use larger injectors. My guess was 28-32 Lb units but
I'm not sure. I've spoken with a few places about a custom
chip for the ECM but everyone seems to carry "Off the Shelf"
chips instead of doing any custom work. I'm unsure of my
options at this point.

Charles



From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 14 00:42:34 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:42:34 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32116.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi, Charles.

The first thing to consider is that the early style TPI is a great
torque producer, but tended to run out of oomph! above 4500 rpm.  What
rpm range is your 406 built to make power in?

Next is that the larger the cam, the more "tuning time" needs to be
invested in order to get "bug free" driveability.  There are many
stories around of chip tuners who just couldn't get it right.

There is a lot of information contained in the letter archives for
this list, which can be linked to from here
http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/

And this page has a fuel injector size calculator:
http://sura1.jlab.org/~grippo/auto.html

Have fun, and welcome to the list.
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Hi all, I joined the list to gain more info on EFI operations
> and maybe a little knowledge, If I don't get lost too quickly!
> 
> I have a 1987 Monte Carlo SS as a pet project. I recently
> installed a built 406 and I've been contemplating an EFI swap.
> Well, I stumbled onto a TPI setup from a 1985 5.0 Camaro and
> contemplation time seems to be over :)
> 
> The 406 flows A WHOLE LOT MORE AIR than the 5.0 so I know I
> need to use larger injectors. My guess was 28-32 Lb units but
> I'm not sure. I've spoken with a few places about a custom
> chip for the ECM but everyone seems to carry "Off the Shelf"
> chips instead of doing any custom work. I'm unsure of my
> options at this point.
> 
> Charles



From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 14 00:45:14 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:45:14 -0500
Subject: Non List Content-
Message-ID: <mailman.32117.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

As a side note, my new ISP claims they cannot provide me with enough
email header info to distinguish where messages are from.  If anyone
has any experience with this, or happens to know of a source for some
info about it, I'd be obliged to ya.

Shannen



From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 14 00:54:16 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:54:16 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32118.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:

> 
> "David A. Cooley" <n5xmt at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > Usually there is a resistor to be changed in a tach for the number of
> > cyls... not sure if the dash's had a switch or jumper or socketed resistor,
> > but I can't see them using 2 different tachs for the same year, different
> > engine...
> 
> Wanna bet?  A parts book shows eight different tachs used in one model
> of car over a five year range.  (L4 vs V6, US vs Canada, non-backlit vs
> backlit, w/ oil gauge vs w/ volt gauge vs w/ no gauge)
> 
> --
> Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
> Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/

Yeah, I'm still trying to convert metric RPM into standard RPM.
Shannen



From soren at rio.com  Thu Jan 14 01:01:54 1999
From: soren at rio.com (soren)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:01:54 -0500
Subject: Option Codes (Off Topic)
Message-ID: <mailman.32119.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>If it's GM, I can sometimes help.  Also, there are "option code" books
>which seem to float all around the dealership parts and service
>departments.  Be aware, option code can change from year to year (look
>at LT1 for example)


    Most dealerships get more of those little white booklets than they can
actually use.  If you go down and ask for one at the parts counter, they
might sell or give one to you.  The option code booklets come out each year,
but they keep all old  codes that have not changed; some current booklets
list codes from more than 10 years ago.

Soren Rounds



From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 14 01:06:38 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:06:38 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32120.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: DIY_EFI Fuel Injection List <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:40 PM
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie

Your options, are dictated only by what you want to spend or learn.
If you have money, and just want to get something running as mentioned
a laptop programable ecm is an option.  If you have a laptop, and $695 to
$3,000.  If you want to learn, and crack the ecm program $150.
You want to use the oem ecm but forgo all the "cracking"  The Turbo Shop
has programs for "burning" chips.  Mechanically there isn't much difference
from what you have to a 89, but ecm/MAF wise there is a difference.
You could go to the 90-92 ecm, and go MAP.  Best thing is reading the
archives, and figure what works best for you.   Might read some about
Programming 101, if your starting at ground zero and really want to learn
something.
Cheers+Welcome
Bruce

>Hi all, I joined the list to gain more info on EFI operations
>and maybe a little knowledge, If I don't get lost too quickly!
>
>I have a 1987 Monte Carlo SS as a pet project. I recently
>installed a built 406 and I've been contemplating an EFI swap.
>Well, I stumbled onto a TPI setup from a 1985 5.0 Camaro and
>contemplation time seems to be over :)
>
>The 406 flows A WHOLE LOT MORE AIR than the 5.0 so I know I
>need to use larger injectors. My guess was 28-32 Lb units but
>I'm not sure. I've spoken with a few places about a custom
>chip for the ECM but everyone seems to carry "Off the Shelf"
>chips instead of doing any custom work. I'm unsure of my
>options at this point.
>
>Charles
>



From israels at MNSi.Net  Thu Jan 14 01:14:36 1999
From: israels at MNSi.Net (todd israels)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:14:36 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32121.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 08:38 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Has anyone ever used a GM gage package in anything that they have adapted to
>EFI?
>
>The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90
>Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird.  The difference is the 90 is a four cylinder
>car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6.  The tach is reading about 50% higher in the V6
>(which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to see, it receives
>three).
>
>If there is no simple solution, does anyone have a circuit that will delete
>every third pulse from the spark module?  I don't know what voltage the
>signal is, but it is a 3.1V6 with the distributorless 3-coil module.  Since
>there fairly common, i'm hoping someone knows ;)
>
>Thanks,
>Scott
>
>

	Somewhere in my Fiero notes I have information on wich capacitor to change
to recalibrate tach.  I had to recalibrate mine from 4 to V8 and also my
brothers 914 Porche.  I remember very few capacitors on the board and used
a 555 clock curcuit to calibrate.  Set the 555 to display 4000(L4) on the
bench then use capacitor substitution box to tune tac to 2000 RPM(V8) or
3000?(V6).  



From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Thu Jan 14 01:17:03 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:17:03 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32122.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi Charles

For the money the stock setup is ok. You peak rpm is gonna be
about 4500 rpm but the torgue is awesome.

Buy SVO injectors from ford. The 24# would do the job and run bout 200$ a
set.

As for calibrating your chip there is a lot of helpful people round here.

With the 406 you are facing the same lemma as me.
My vette runs a traction limited 13.2 at about 107 with the stock
manifold. The way to get bout a half second is to go with the tpis
miniram..But they cost in gold.. Bigger runners, the superram are
just a crutch when you deal with 383s and 406s..

gl:peter





Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net> on 01/13/99 03:30:34 PM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To:      DIY_EFI Fuel Injection List                         
          <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>                 
                                                              
 cc:      (bcc: Peter Fenske/BCIT)                            
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie                            
                                                              








Hi all, I joined the list to gain more info on EFI operations
and maybe a little knowledge, If I don't get lost too quickly!

I have a 1987 Monte Carlo SS as a pet project. I recently
installed a built 406 and I've been contemplating an EFI swap.
Well, I stumbled onto a TPI setup from a 1985 5.0 Camaro and
contemplation time seems to be over :)

The 406 flows A WHOLE LOT MORE AIR than the 5.0 so I know I
need to use larger injectors. My guess was 28-32 Lb units but
I'm not sure. I've spoken with a few places about a custom
chip for the ECM but everyone seems to carry "Off the Shelf"
chips instead of doing any custom work. I'm unsure of my
options at this point.

Charles





From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Thu Jan 14 01:20:23 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:20:23 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32123.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

TPIS says the only difference between the 5.0 and 5.7 TPI motors
is the chip in the ECU (Same ECU even). If this is true the intake
should be good for 400HP. I do expect more from this motor but
I'm willing to give up a little peak HP for a flatter torque curve
and better gas mileage. If the intake proves to be TOO restrictive
well, I'll have to cross that bridge when I come to it.

I'm not sure which ECU it is (I haven't taken posession of
everything yet) but I'm wondering if anyone has any experience
with the 1985 5.0 Camaro TPI system? If so can you point me
toward info on it?

Thanks,

Charles Brooks



Roger Heflin wrote:
> 
> I don't think a 5.0 intake will flow enough air to feed a 406.  That
> will be your major restriction.  There are aftermarket (ACCEL) intake
> manifolds that should flow the required amounts but aren't cheap.
> 
> On the custom chips, there are people on this list reverse engineering
> their chips and determine what addresses need to be adjusted to get
> the needed performance.  I am working on my 93 Z28 computer.


From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Thu Jan 14 02:04:11 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:04:11 -0500
Subject: Option Codes (Off Topic)
Message-ID: <mailman.32124.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Kevin,
      If you get a Gm service manual for your vehicle it has all the options
listed right in the front.....hth's
-Carl Summers

In a message dated 1/13/99 9:01:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, kv at us.ibm.com
writes:

<< Subj:	 Option Codes (Off Topic)
 Date:	1/13/99 9:01:39 AM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	kv at us.ibm.com
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 
 
 
 
 Has anyone seen a listing (or know how I can get one) of the three digit
 "option codes" and their associated options for a given vehicle?
 
 I have a new (used) car and am wondering what the thing came with.
 
 ________________________________________________
   Kevin Vannorsdel     IBM Arm Electronics Development
    408-256-6492                Tie 276-6492     kv at us.ibm.com
 


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Thu Jan 14 02:04:26 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:04:26 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
Message-ID: <mailman.32125.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've looked at several of them but frankly I'm not sure what
I should be looking for in a programmable EFI system. The
Accell DFI system seems popular and so do the Haltech
products. I must have looked at a dozen Mfr.'s. I was leaning
toward the Holley system but after receiving several messages
on the problems and deficiencies they have I changed my mind.
Which system(s) is/are considered the best?

Charles



David Sagers wrote:
> 
> In putting a TPI on a 406 the factory settings work just fine
> with the 28 lbs injectors, but a built motor is very different
> than a stock motor.
> 
> For a stock 406 28 lb injectors are all that's needed.  If
> it's built the perhaps a 30 lb.  Also consider finding a
> programable system so that you can dial in the fuel & ignition
> curves to match your cam, headers, etc...  I would look for a
> computer that can be programmed from a lap top while you drive.
>  Other members can tell you how to burn new chips.  It's your
> choice.


From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 14 02:08:55 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:08:55 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32126.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Fenske <pfenske at bcit.bc.ca>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: GM TPI tips for a newbie

The minirams always sounded nice, but puttting one togeter is a hassle.
One guy on the 3rd gen list spent literally months getting it bolted
together,
from the linkage, to everything he touched nothing fit.  I wasn't there so
this
is just rumor control.
Bruce


>Hi Charles
>For the money the stock setup is ok. You peak rpm is gonna be
>about 4500 rpm but the torgue is awesome.
>Buy SVO injectors from ford. The 24# would do the job and run bout 200$ a
>set.
>As for calibrating your chip there is a lot of helpful people round here.
>With the 406 you are facing the same lemma as me.
>My vette runs a traction limited 13.2 at about 107 with the stock
>manifold. The way to get bout a half second is to go with the tpis
>miniram..But they cost in gold.. Bigger runners, the superram are
>just a crutch when you deal with 383s and 406s..
>
>gl:peter
>




From amattei at mindspring.com  Thu Jan 14 02:11:22 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:11:22 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32127.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Charles Brooks wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure which ECU it is (I haven't taken posession of
> everything yet) but I'm wondering if anyone has any experience
> with the 1985 5.0 Camaro TPI system? If so can you point me
> toward info on it?

Well, not but three or four days ago, I posted about the 1985 5.0 TPI
Camaro ECM that I have (with TPI system). Here's a cut-paste from my
email from last week...

<paste>

I appreciate all the responses! OK, here's some more info. Peter, I
found that number you gave in Ludis' archives, and thought I might have
been mistaken, but the bar code sticker on the metal cover has the
number 16052541 on it :-/ The bar code sticker on the PCB inside has
"255001205585161"

OK, for the PROM information - I see "HLK" and "2315" on it. Reason I'm
asking... I *think* this came from a TPI305, but we want to use it on a
TPI350. I was hoping for a quick EPROM burn, but if I can't cross ref
it, I don't know if it'll take a standard available .bin or not :)

<endsnip>

I'm going to copy the 305 EPROM to a file tomorrow. Just for my archives
- I may be selling the system soon... I'm personally going to be working
with a 1989 L98 TPI system (165 ECM)... Thinking about following up with
the 730 Sy/Ty ECM test with a bench, then the motor ;)

Regards,

Andrew


From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 14 02:18:29 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:18:29 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32128.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: GM TPI tips for a newbie

85 ecm 1226870  32K Prom   (MAF)
86-89 1227165    128K Prom  (MAF)   89 version did away with 9th injector
90-92 1227730    256K Prom  (MAP)
The larger the prom the more room for program/switches/tables/settings,
more refinement.  
Bruce


>TPIS says the only difference between the 5.0 and 5.7 TPI motors
>is the chip in the ECU (Same ECU even). If this is true the intake
>should be good for 400HP. I do expect more from this motor but
>I'm willing to give up a little peak HP for a flatter torque curve
>and better gas mileage. If the intake proves to be TOO restrictive
>well, I'll have to cross that bridge when I come to it.
>
>I'm not sure which ECU it is (I haven't taken posession of
>everything yet) but I'm wondering if anyone has any experience
>with the 1985 5.0 Camaro TPI system? If so can you point me
>toward info on it?
>Thanks,
>Charles Brooks




From alipper at cardozo.org  Thu Jan 14 02:24:36 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:24:36 -0500
Subject: TBI EFI plans
Message-ID: <mailman.32129.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The complete plans and software for my EFI system are available at:
http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/

			Al

At 08:18 AM 1/13/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi Al Lipper
>
>I am interested in you efi system, but I do not know where you have posted
>the design. Can you send me a pointer please.
>
>Cheers
>Carlo




From alipper at cardozo.org  Thu Jan 14 02:24:43 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:24:43 -0500
Subject: Intel  80C51GB
Message-ID: <mailman.32130.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Indeed the 80C51GB is no longer made, however, Richar Quass wrote in a
recent posting:
	It appears that a number of them would be available till Dec'99. I was 
	looking at the 80c552, it may have some possibilities.
I purchased a few of them from Allied Electronics 800-433-5700, but that
was a while ago.  They cost about $17 each for the version with 8K OTP
memory.  As I mention in the README file, it makes sense to upgrade the
circuit to use a currently made chip.  The Phillips 87C552 seems to fit the
bill quite well, and may even have some advantages.  Furthermore, there may
even be some better chips out there this year (like some with flash memory
built in that can hold the program flash memory update routines (read the
README about FLOAD and this will make sense).  It's great to see so many
people working on this project.

			Al



At 10:39 PM 1/13/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi Al,
>
>I recently downloaded your 8051 based EFI project and really like your
>approach. I got quite enthusiastic, and started looking at sourcing parts.
>Today I had a look on Intel's web site to find that this version of the
>80C51 went obsolete and last orders were taken in October 98. I wondered if
>you know of a second source for this device or an alternative. I am hopping
>to fuel inject my  Rover V8(Buick 215) that's fitted in my Kit car
> http://www.g8stw.demon.co.uk/carproj.html ). Then guys who designed my car
>are sorting out the engineering side for me, and as a design engineer I am
>happy to do my own electronics. I hope the news of the processor doesn't
>cause your too many problems as you have such a great project it would be a
>shame to hold things up. Keep up the good work its a very nice approach.
>
>If you have any further info I would be very pleased to here from you.
>
>All the best
>
>John
>




From sfeaver at cgocable.net  Thu Jan 14 02:55:01 1999
From: sfeaver at cgocable.net (Scott Feaver)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:55:01 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32131.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

After looking over the circuits used on both tachs, I came to the conclusion
that the only difference was the capactor in the RC network.  On the
4-cylinder model, it was a .47uF cap, and the V6 one has a .33uF.  I just
swapped that part over to the turbo tach and all was well :)

The redline on the Turbo was 6000, on the V6 tach, it "orange-lines" at
5500, but red starts at 6000.  Max engine speed (as limited by the ecm) is
6200rpm.

Thanks everyone for their help.

One thing that I noted is, the resistor network was identical on both
boards.  And the circuit is very close to the one in the tech note from
National.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Ludis
> Langens
> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:51 PM
> To: Diy_efi
> Subject: Re: Factory Instrument Panels
>
>
> "Scott Feaver" <sfeaver at cgocable.net> wrote:
> > The reason I am asking is I need to adapt a tachometer module from a 90
> > Turbo Sunbird to a 91 Sunbird.  The difference is the 90 is a
> four cylinder
> > car, and the 91 is a 3.1V6.  The tach is reading about 50%
> higher in the V6
> > (which makes sense because for every 2 pulses it expects to
> see, it receives
> > three).
>
> As other's have mentioned, GM likes to use the NatSemi chip.  GM's
> circuit is almost the same as the schematic in NatSemi's data sheet.  An
> RC combination calibrates the tach.  I doubt you can find a temperature
> stable capacitor of the correct value.  So you should change the
> resistor.  On the tach circuit board you'll find a thin (thick?) film
> resistor pack (in a DIP package).  The resistor element on the top layer
> is the calibration element.  You'll notice it is laser trimmed/cut.
> You'll need to bypass this resistor with your own.
>
> What's the redline on the 2.0turbo tach?  The 3.1 might need a different
> limit - probably 6000 rpm.  Of course this is just an instrumentation
> issue.  The tach redline needn't agree with the ECM redline.
>
> "David A. Cooley" <n5xmt at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > Usually there is a resistor to be changed in a tach for the number of
> > cyls... not sure if the dash's had a switch or jumper or
> socketed resistor,
> > but I can't see them using 2 different tachs for the same year,
> different
> > engine...
>
> Wanna bet?  A parts book shows eight different tachs used in one model
> of car over a five year range.  (L4 vs V6, US vs Canada, non-backlit vs
> backlit, w/ oil gauge vs w/ volt gauge vs w/ no gauge)
>
> --
> Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
> Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/
>



From alipper at cardozo.org  Thu Jan 14 03:09:44 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:09:44 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32132.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

A number of people have sent me mail indicating a desire to work on the ECU
project - this is great!  I beleive that we can end up with a much better
system with a dozen people each focusing on a specific aspect of the
project than lots of people trying to do it by themselves.  If people are
interested in this, I would be happy to coordinate the development process,
as well as use my homepage as a central location for communicating project
status among people (http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/  It is also linked to
the projects section of the DIY_EFI web site).

In particular, we need people to specialize in the following areas:

- Programming the 8051 (or derivative with advanced features like counter
arrays)
- BASIC programming (Preferably with experience in real-time control systems)
- Detailed EFI operational theory (to help guide the programmers)
- Electronics design (with microprocessor/microcontroller experience)
- Automotive electronics experience (dealing with noise, driving high
currents, etc.)
- PC board layout & routing
- Building and testing the system on your own vehicle (for giving the
designers feedback)

There are probably many more areas that will arise as work progresses, but
for now, this should give us a good start.  Also, if anyone has the ability
to have balnk PC boards manufactured in small quantities for a low cost,
that would be great (I've already tried non-professional fabrication of
these boards, and they're way too dense and complex to have this work
reliably).  I've had some of them made so far and paid about $130 for four.
 If we could get the cost down, that would be good.

Someone asked for additional info on how well the system works.  I drove
around with it for about six months and it worked surprisingly well.  It's
still missing some "features" like an accellerator pump, has a slightly
rich mixture at idle and the learning routines need work, but otherwise it
was quite drivable.  Only once did I have a system failure, and that was
due to my neglecting to put any kind of a heat sink on the injector drivers
(I didn't think they were that hot...)

As far as who owns the result of a group effort like this, I think we all
should.  If it finds its way to the market someday, I believe that people
who contributed to the effort should receive a proportional part of any
profit.  But that's not really the point.  I'm in it for the fun and not
for the money, as I'm sure is true with everyone here.  So...If you have
time to devote to this project, let's get going! 

				Al

Al Lipper
efi at cardozo.org
(650) 322-9112




From quest100 at gte.net  Thu Jan 14 03:42:07 1999
From: quest100 at gte.net (Fran and Bud)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:42:07 -0500
Subject: Ecu6
Message-ID: <mailman.32133.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Al,
Your Ecu6 sounds like it may be appropriate for a couple of projects I have
to get started on.
Count me in for more info and whatever help I can provide.  (Skewed toward
the mechanical/hardware portions).
 Bud 



From alaint at cgocable.ca  Thu Jan 14 04:02:27 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:02:27 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32134.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> I don't think a 5.0 intake will flow enough air to feed a 406.  That
> will be your major restriction.  There are aftermarket (ACCEL) intake
> manifolds that should flow the required amounts but aren't cheap. 

possible suggestion here is to extrude hone the intake and enjoy the
torque,ummm....i wonder if the intake has enough meat so the extrude hone
process don't go through the intake ???

Alain

----signature----

No Keyboard found, Press any key to continue.

what is the any key ??

Windows 9x: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for  a 16 bit patch
to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for  a 4 bit microprocessor,
written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition.




From mkupec at erols.com  Thu Jan 14 04:20:39 1999
From: mkupec at erols.com (Michael J. Kupec)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:20:39 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32135.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Al,

Have you changed anything in the EFI.ZIP file since 3 Jan? I've tried to D/L
it tonight, but AOL keeps timing out during the transfer. If others are
having problems with getting the file, I can upload it to my web site for
others to retrieve.

Michael J. Kupec
mkupec at erols.com
http://members.xoom.com/BroncoMike
President of Off Camber Crawlers
http://www.off-road.com/~occweb
1970 "Calico" Bronco w/351W (in a constant state of
disassembly/refinement...)
1964 1/2 260 Convertible  w/PS, PB, & Power Top
1965 289 HP "K" Coupe w/PS, PB, & Pony Int. (Early '65, not a GT)

"To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often." - Winston
Churchill

I live with constant fear and danger every day...
    and sometimes she lets me go four-wheeling!

Get in, Sit down, Shut up, and Hold on!
-----Original Message-----
From: Al Lipper <alipper at cardozo.org>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>;
alipper at pop.thegrid.net <alipper at pop.thegrid.net>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 10:39 PM
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction


>A number of people have sent me mail indicating a desire to work on the ECU
>project - this is great!  I beleive that we can end up with a much better
>system with a dozen people each focusing on a specific aspect of the
>project than lots of people trying to do it by themselves.  If people are
>interested in this, I would be happy to coordinate the development process,
>as well as use my homepage as a central location for communicating project
>status among people (http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/  It is also linked to
>the projects section of the DIY_EFI web site).
>
>In particular, we need people to specialize in the following areas:
>
>- Programming the 8051 (or derivative with advanced features like counter
>arrays)
>- BASIC programming (Preferably with experience in real-time control
systems)
>- Detailed EFI operational theory (to help guide the programmers)
>- Electronics design (with microprocessor/microcontroller experience)
>- Automotive electronics experience (dealing with noise, driving high
>currents, etc.)
>- PC board layout & routing
>- Building and testing the system on your own vehicle (for giving the
>designers feedback)
>
>There are probably many more areas that will arise as work progresses, but
>for now, this should give us a good start.  Also, if anyone has the ability
>to have balnk PC boards manufactured in small quantities for a low cost,
>that would be great (I've already tried non-professional fabrication of
>these boards, and they're way too dense and complex to have this work
>reliably).  I've had some of them made so far and paid about $130 for four.
> If we could get the cost down, that would be good.
>
>Someone asked for additional info on how well the system works.  I drove
>around with it for about six months and it worked surprisingly well.  It's
>still missing some "features" like an accellerator pump, has a slightly
>rich mixture at idle and the learning routines need work, but otherwise it
>was quite drivable.  Only once did I have a system failure, and that was
>due to my neglecting to put any kind of a heat sink on the injector drivers
>(I didn't think they were that hot...)
>
>As far as who owns the result of a group effort like this, I think we all
>should.  If it finds its way to the market someday, I believe that people
>who contributed to the effort should receive a proportional part of any
>profit.  But that's not really the point.  I'm in it for the fun and not
>for the money, as I'm sure is true with everyone here.  So...If you have
>time to devote to this project, let's get going!
>
> Al
>
>Al Lipper
>efi at cardozo.org
>(650) 322-9112
>
>



From rwebb at ptialaska.net  Thu Jan 14 04:40:04 1999
From: rwebb at ptialaska.net (Ronald T. Webb)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:40:04 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32136.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


--------------64BE847F9CE6277A6239DC49
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Greetings -

This "ECU 6" sounds interesting. 2 suggestions

1- Before deciding to build our own processor board, look at  New Micro's
    They have several boards - fully functional - in the $30 to $80 range...

2 - Development software is easiest if not done with the cheap public domain
stuff -
     My own favorite is Embedded Workbench by  IAR . Their C development
system for the 8751 is like working with the old Turbo Pascal. They have a free
demo version that's still better than small C.

Just a suggestion. I also would get involved. Hardware or software...



Al Lipper wrote:

> A number of people have sent me mail indicating a desire to work on the ECU
> project - this is great!  I beleive that we can end up with a much better
> system with a dozen people each focusing on a specific aspect of the
> project than lots of people trying to do it by themselves.  If people are
> interested in this, I would be happy to coordinate the development process,
> as well as use my homepage as a central location for communicating project
> status among people (http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/  It is also linked to
> the projects section of the DIY_EFI web site).
>
> In particular, we need people to specialize in the following areas:
>
> - Programming the 8051 (or derivative with advanced features like counter
> arrays)
> - BASIC programming (Preferably with experience in real-time control systems)
> - Detailed EFI operational theory (to help guide the programmers)
> - Electronics design (with microprocessor/microcontroller experience)
> - Automotive electronics experience (dealing with noise, driving high
> currents, etc.)
> - PC board layout & routing
> - Building and testing the system on your own vehicle (for giving the
> designers feedback)
>
> There are probably many more areas that will arise as work progresses, but
> for now, this should give us a good start.  Also, if anyone has the ability
> to have balnk PC boards manufactured in small quantities for a low cost,
> that would be great (I've already tried non-professional fabrication of
> these boards, and they're way too dense and complex to have this work
> reliably).  I've had some of them made so far and paid about $130 for four.
>  If we could get the cost down, that would be good.
>
> Someone asked for additional info on how well the system works.  I drove
> around with it for about six months and it worked surprisingly well.  It's
> still missing some "features" like an accellerator pump, has a slightly
> rich mixture at idle and the learning routines need work, but otherwise it
> was quite drivable.  Only once did I have a system failure, and that was
> due to my neglecting to put any kind of a heat sink on the injector drivers
> (I didn't think they were that hot...)
>
> As far as who owns the result of a group effort like this, I think we all
> should.  If it finds its way to the market someday, I believe that people
> who contributed to the effort should receive a proportional part of any
> profit.  But that's not really the point.  I'm in it for the fun and not
> for the money, as I'm sure is true with everyone here.  So...If you have
> time to devote to this project, let's get going!
>
>                                 Al
>
> Al Lipper
> efi at cardozo.org
> (650) 322-9112

--------------64BE847F9CE6277A6239DC49
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Greetings -
<p>This "ECU 6" sounds interesting. 2 suggestions
<p>1- Before deciding to build our own processor board, look at&nbsp; <a href="www.newmicros.com">New
Micro's</a>
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They have several boards - fully functional - in
the $30 to $80 range...
<p>2 - Development software is easiest if not done with the cheap public
domain stuff -
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My own favorite is Embedded Workbench by&nbsp;
<a href="www.iar.com">IAR</a> . Their C development&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
system for the 8751 is like working with the old Turbo Pascal. They have
a free demo version that's still better than small C.
<p>Just a suggestion. I also would get involved. Hardware or software...
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<p>Al Lipper wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>A number of people have sent me mail indicating a
desire to work on the ECU
<br>project - this is great!&nbsp; I beleive that we can end up with a
much better
<br>system with a dozen people each focusing on a specific aspect of the
<br>project than lots of people trying to do it by themselves.&nbsp; If
people are
<br>interested in this, I would be happy to coordinate the development
process,
<br>as well as use my homepage as a central location for communicating
project
<br>status among people (<a href="http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/">http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/</a>&nbsp;
It is also linked to
<br>the projects section of the DIY_EFI web site).
<p>In particular, we need people to specialize in the following areas:
<p>- Programming the 8051 (or derivative with advanced features like counter
<br>arrays)
<br>- BASIC programming (Preferably with experience in real-time control
systems)
<br>- Detailed EFI operational theory (to help guide the programmers)
<br>- Electronics design (with microprocessor/microcontroller experience)
<br>- Automotive electronics experience (dealing with noise, driving high
<br>currents, etc.)
<br>- PC board layout &amp; routing
<br>- Building and testing the system on your own vehicle (for giving the
<br>designers feedback)
<p>There are probably many more areas that will arise as work progresses,
but
<br>for now, this should give us a good start.&nbsp; Also, if anyone has
the ability
<br>to have balnk PC boards manufactured in small quantities for a low
cost,
<br>that would be great (I've already tried non-professional fabrication
of
<br>these boards, and they're way too dense and complex to have this work
<br>reliably).&nbsp; I've had some of them made so far and paid about $130
for four.
<br>&nbsp;If we could get the cost down, that would be good.
<p>Someone asked for additional info on how well the system works.&nbsp;
I drove
<br>around with it for about six months and it worked surprisingly well.&nbsp;
It's
<br>still missing some "features" like an accellerator pump, has a slightly
<br>rich mixture at idle and the learning routines need work, but otherwise
it
<br>was quite drivable.&nbsp; Only once did I have a system failure, and
that was
<br>due to my neglecting to put any kind of a heat sink on the injector
drivers
<br>(I didn't think they were that hot...)
<p>As far as who owns the result of a group effort like this, I think we
all
<br>should.&nbsp; If it finds its way to the market someday, I believe
that people
<br>who contributed to the effort should receive a proportional part of
any
<br>profit.&nbsp; But that's not really the point.&nbsp; I'm in it for
the fun and not
<br>for the money, as I'm sure is true with everyone here.&nbsp; So...If
you have
<br>time to devote to this project, let's get going!
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Al
<p>Al Lipper
<br>efi at cardozo.org
<br>(650) 322-9112</blockquote>
</html>

--------------64BE847F9CE6277A6239DC49--



From mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net  Thu Jan 14 04:41:28 1999
From: mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:41:28 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32137.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>> It's still missing some "features" like an accellerator pump

Is this what delta TPS and delta MAP are used for?  If so, the 
routines to do this look pretty simple in GM equipment.

-Mike
==========================================
Mike Pitts
Delray Beach, FL
mpitts at emi.net
==========================================




From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Thu Jan 14 04:46:00 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:46:00 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32138.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/13/99 8:05:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
alaint at cgocable.ca writes:

<< Subj:	 Re: GM TPI tips for a newbie
 Date:	1/13/99 8:05:57 PM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu (DIY_EFI Fuel Injection List)
 
 > I don't think a 5.0 intake will flow enough air to feed a 406.  That
 > will be your major restriction.  There are aftermarket (ACCEL) intake
 > manifolds that should flow the required amounts but aren't cheap. 
 
 possible suggestion here is to extrude hone the intake and enjoy the
 torque,ummm....i wonder if the intake has enough meat so the extrude hone
 process don't go through the intake ???
 
 Alain
  >>
In my opinion the best scenario(if you have the ambition) would be to get the
90-92 tpi harness from Painless Wiring, buy the software from Turbo Shop for
the 7730 processor, and start tuning....you will need of course the eprom
burner and erasure...also a reasonable scanner and a way to monitor the
Air/Fuel Ratio.....if you really want to learn something this will be fun and
at alot of times frustrating....clue yourself into Bruce's 101 stuff...it will
be very helpful...and also the group here is also a good source of good
advise, as we all started somewhere....hth's
-Carl Summers


From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 14 05:01:31 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:01:31 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32139.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pitts <mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: ECU6 EFI system construction

Toss in delta quantity, and a coolant temp correction, and I think that
would take care of all of it.
Bruce          Doc said we needed a Mascot so we went to the Pet Shop
                  today.  Trouble was he got sick, and I wound up carring
him
                  out.  Security stopped me, and wanted me to pay for him.
                  Really hurt his feelings.


>>> It's still missing some "features" like an accellerator pump
>Is this what delta TPS and delta MAP are used for?  If so, the
>routines to do this look pretty simple in GM equipment.
>-Mike
>==========================================
>Mike Pitts
>Delray Beach, FL
>mpitts at emi.net
>==========================================
>
>



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Thu Jan 14 05:02:35 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:02:35 -0500
Subject: 93 Z disassembly - I have jsrs to non prom location.
Message-ID: <mailman.32140.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hey,

I have finished the TCC control routine, and I think I understand
all of it, except how the TCC actually gets triggered.  There aren't
any things checking the TCC bit and setting a register in the $1000
range.   I did find some odd code that does jsr into the $5000 range,
the prom is mapped from $8000-$FFFF, so $5000 would have to be
built into the computer's internals.    There about 10 of these jsrs
to different addresses in the $5000 range.  Does anyone have any
idea what these do?   If I really want to know bad, I will setup
a prom to read that range (while petting the watchdog), and output
that data to the aldl port.  I am thinking some of the hardware
operations (TCC and several others maybe) are being done there.

				Roger


From zxv at istar.ca  Thu Jan 14 06:12:52 1999
From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:12:52 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32141.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'm going to need an O2 bung installed in my exhaust right below my header,
is this something I can just drill out my exhaust and 'braze' the bung on?
I have no welding/brazing etc experience but wouldn't mind learning.......

gonna need it for my 4Di and EGO sensor I've rallied the parts for

thanks in advance

(not directly efi I guess but I'm sure you guys can answer this...)

PS still looking for a fine deal on a 486 notebook w/ modem and working
battery...

Ross Corrigan  /  Vancouver, Canada 
  IZCC#255          EZCC #45a    BCZCR        
1980 280ZX  w/ parts from '68,'86,'87,'95 Camaro, '66, '69, '82 'vette, 82
280ZX, '86, '88 300ZXT,  and more
68 327 9.5:1,  2830lbs dry, GTech times dropping steadily;^) 
ICQ # 11549358
http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml
http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg  'where a
Z belongs'


From edwards at mail.sunbeach.net  Thu Jan 14 07:12:15 1999
From: edwards at mail.sunbeach.net (Pedro Haynes)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:12:15 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32142.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

You need to weld the bung on. Never seen a brazing on an exhaust for all
the right reasons, some are: It sets up a cell (two different types of
metal) causing the more reactive metal, in this case steel to rust. We know
of the problems with rust and exhaust. In addition where the bung is to be
brazed is some times known to get red hot, depending on the drazing rod you
use, the damn thing may melt.


>I'm going to need an O2 bung installed in my exhaust right below my header,
>is this something I can just drill out my exhaust and 'braze' the bung on?
>I have no welding/brazing etc experience but wouldn't mind learning.......
>
>


From alaint at cgocable.ca  Thu Jan 14 07:20:55 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:20:55 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32143.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> PS still looking for a fine deal on a 486 notebook w/ modem and working
> battery...

www.ebay.com

----signature----

No Keyboard found, Press any key to continue.

what is the any key ??

Windows 9x: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for  a 16 bit patch
to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for  a 4 bit microprocessor,
written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition.



From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 14 07:21:15 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:21:15 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32144.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've been successful drilling a hole in the pipe/header large enough
for the sensor portion of the O2 sensor, and welding an 18mm spark
plug anti-fouler around the hole.  The anti-fouler needs to be cut
short enough so the sensor protrudes into the exhaust stream.  If you
find a source for more "professional" bungs, please post it.
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> I'm going to need an O2 bung installed in my exhaust right below my header,
> is this something I can just drill out my exhaust and 'braze' the bung on?
> I have no welding/brazing etc experience but wouldn't mind learning.......
> 
> gonna need it for my 4Di and EGO sensor I've rallied the parts for
> 
> thanks in advance
> 
> (not directly efi I guess but I'm sure you guys can answer this...)
> 
> PS still looking for a fine deal on a 486 notebook w/ modem and working
> battery...
> 
> Ross Corrigan  /  Vancouver, Canada
>   IZCC#255          EZCC #45a    BCZCR
> 1980 280ZX  w/ parts from '68,'86,'87,'95 Camaro, '66, '69, '82 'vette, 82
> 280ZX, '86, '88 300ZXT,  and more
> 68 327 9.5:1,  2830lbs dry, GTech times dropping steadily;^)
> ICQ # 11549358
> http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml
> http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg  'where a
> Z belongs'



From ludis at cruzers.com  Thu Jan 14 08:49:14 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 03:49:14 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32145.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com> wrote:
>
> > (L4 vs V6, US vs Canada, non-backlit vs
> > backlit, w/ oil gauge vs w/ volt gauge vs w/ no gauge)
>
> Yeah, I'm still trying to convert metric RPM into standard RPM.

Oil pressure in psi versus oil pressure in KPa's (for models with the
oil pressure gauge in the tach.)  Yes it's silly.

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/



From ludis at cruzers.com  Thu Jan 14 09:51:10 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:51:10 -0500
Subject: ECM Module Help #1226823
Message-ID: <mailman.32146.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> I have several ECM Modules with the part # 1226823.  Does anybody what
> these are?  I can't find the number anywhere.

A physical description might be useful.  What connectors does this ECM
use?  What does(do) the board(s) inside look like?  What chip numbers
does it use?

The 12268xx implies something first used in 1985.

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/



From realsquash at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 14 12:14:31 1999
From: realsquash at yahoo.com (andy quaas)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:14:31 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
Message-ID: <mailman.32147.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The holley DIGITAL systems are great.  Don't touch the analog ones.

Andy


---Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net> wrote:
>
> I've looked at several of them but frankly I'm not sure what
> I should be looking for in a programmable EFI system. The
> Accell DFI system seems popular and so do the Haltech
> products. I must have looked at a dozen Mfr.'s. I was leaning
> toward the Holley system but after receiving several messages
> on the problems and deficiencies they have I changed my mind.
> Which system(s) is/are considered the best?
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
> 
> David Sagers wrote:
> > 
> > In putting a TPI on a 406 the factory settings work just fine
> > with the 28 lbs injectors, but a built motor is very different
> > than a stock motor.
> > 
> > For a stock 406 28 lb injectors are all that's needed.  If
> > it's built the perhaps a 30 lb.  Also consider finding a
> > programable system so that you can dial in the fuel & ignition
> > curves to match your cam, headers, etc...  I would look for a
> > computer that can be programmed from a lap top while you drive.
> >  Other members can tell you how to burn new chips.  It's your
> > choice.
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From xwiredtva at email.msn.com  Thu Jan 14 12:14:58 1999
From: xwiredtva at email.msn.com (Xwiredtva)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:14:58 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32148.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>PS still looking for a fine deal on a 486 notebook w/ modem and working
>battery...


Check you local State Surplus. Around here they can be found as low as $150
but need a hard drive.





From mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net  Thu Jan 14 12:55:06 1999
From: mpitts at ns-alpha.emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:55:06 -0500
Subject: 93 Z disassembly - I have jsrs to non prom location.
Message-ID: <mailman.32149.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


My guess is that the JSR's into the $5000 locations are used 
for test equipment.  Is there a check for a particular word at $5000 
which sets a bit if present?   Then if the bit is set the routines are 
called?  Normally, the equipment isn't present so the routines are 
never called.

The TCC in my 93 is activated by setting a PWM output (at $306A) 
to 100% DC.

-Mike
==========================================
Mike Pitts
Delray Beach, FL
mpitts at emi.net
==========================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11:52 PM
Subject: 93 Z disassembly - I have jsrs to non prom location.


>Hey,
>
>I have finished the TCC control routine, and I think I understand
>all of it, except how the TCC actually gets triggered.  There aren't
>any things checking the TCC bit and setting a register in the $1000
>range.   I did find some odd code that does jsr into the $5000 range,
>the prom is mapped from $8000-$FFFF, so $5000 would have to be
>built into the computer's internals.    There about 10 of these jsrs
>to different addresses in the $5000 range.  Does anyone have any
>idea what these do?   If I really want to know bad, I will setup
>a prom to read that range (while petting the watchdog), and output
>that data to the aldl port.  I am thinking some of the hardware
>operations (TCC and several others maybe) are being done there.
>
> Roger
>



From ludis at cruzers.com  Thu Jan 14 14:26:19 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:26:19 -0500
Subject: 93 Z disassembly - I have jsrs to non prom location.
Message-ID: <mailman.32150.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net> wrote:
> I did find some odd code that does jsr into the $5000 range,
> the prom is mapped from $8000-$FFFF, so $5000 would have to be
> built into the computer's internals.    There about 10 of these jsrs
> to different addresses in the $5000 range.  Does anyone have any
> idea what these do?

The $500x addresses are hooks for GM to use when creating vehicle
calibration data.  They allow an extra calibration PROM to be added to
the running system.  The hooks invoke this extra PROM at key locations
such as computing the timing advance and injector pulse width. 
Someplace you should find some code that will disable all these hooks
unless it sees a "JMP $50xx" at one of these hooks.

> There aren't
> any things checking the TCC bit and setting a register in the $1000
> range.

Look for something that sends a byte out the SPI port, or programs a PWM
channel (the code with lots of $D000 and $DFFF constants.)

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/


From ECMnut at aol.com  Thu Jan 14 14:48:46 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:48:46 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32151.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Skip this post if you could care less about 400 SBCs
or drag racing..

With such a low RPM torque peak, some conservative
rear-end gears (3.55-4.10) will probably work well.
Peter mentioned traction linitations in a previous post.
I couldn't agree more.  IF you can keep it connected
to the pavement, the car should provide big fun..
The 400 SBC makes lots of torque without such a
TPI intake amplifying the issue.  With the stock runners, 
it should REALLY make torque by 3,500 RPM.   
Some years back, I had a 2700 lb bracket car with 
a 350 SBC, 5.13 gears decent heads, very mild hydraulic
 cam and a box-stock 750 Holley.  It turned 11.70s all 
day long.  It idled as smooth as a hoover vaccuum cleaner.  
Eventually, I replace the 350 shortblock with a 13:1 400 
shortblock, reusing the heads, cam & everything possible..
I reduced the rear-end gear from 5.13 to 4.10 because I was 
nervous about turning the "strokey" short-rod 400 too hard.
The first day out with the 400, it idled perfectly smooth at 
15 inches of vaccuum, and the car turned 10.80s....
Almost a full second improvement over the 350..
Even with the gear reduction, the car left the starting
line much harder than before.  A hard throttle stab
from a fast idle would pick the front tires up almost 
a foot.  The car was a small Vega with a 3 link suspension
and 14 inch wide slicks, so traction was usually available.
If I could have EFI'd this thing, I'm sure it would've been
faster and cleaner.  Even with a carb, I considered 
getting a tailpipe emmisions test done, but never found 
the time.  The engine stayed in the car until two years 
later, when I sold everything..
The 400 is really impressive as long as you keep the
RPMs low (below 6,000?)..  That includes the burnout.
Despite my persistent warnings about hi RPM death,
the rookie that bought my car liked the sounds of 8,000
RPM in the burnout area, and put a rod through the 
oil pan his first day at the track.. 
Good luck, I bet the 400 TPI combo will be fun..
Mike V


From zxv at istar.ca  Thu Jan 14 15:32:26 1999
From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:32:26 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32152.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 01:57 AM 1/14/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I've been successful drilling a hole in the pipe/header large enough
>for the sensor portion of the O2 sensor, and welding an 18mm spark
>plug anti-fouler around the hole.  The anti-fouler needs to be cut
>short enough so the sensor protrudes into the exhaust stream.  If you
>find a source for more "professional" bungs, please post it.
>Shannen

holley has them for ~$5 


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Thu Jan 14 15:48:16 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles  Brooks)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:48:16 -0500
Subject: TranslatingEPROM images to maps
Message-ID: <mailman.32153.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well, I have access to a burner at work and a few qualified people to assist me in burning a chip. I looked at the image for the 1226870 ECM and I'm curious how I go about translating the image to the fuel, spark and other maps I need to modify? 

Charles


From arcstarter at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 14 15:51:29 1999
From: arcstarter at hotmail.com (Bill the arcstarter)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:51:29 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32154.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com> wrote:

>I've been successful drilling a hole in the pipe/header large enough
>for the sensor portion of the O2 sensor, and welding an 18mm spark
>plug anti-fouler around the hole.  The anti-fouler needs to be cut
>short enough so the sensor protrudes into the exhaust stream.  If you
>find a source for more "professional" bungs, please post it.

I've seen O2 bungs (weld-on) available form JEGS - near the Holley 
Projection pages.  I think it was about $10??

(sorry - I don't have my catalog with me at the moment)

Another option is to find the thread size of the O2 sensor, and weld on 
an appropriate nut with that size thread.  If memory seves me - most O2 
sensors have some form of metric threads... (I did this once).  I brazed 
my O2 nut on w/o problems but the application wasn't super 
performance...  I was able to find a thin-enough nut (to keep the O2 
sensor up in the stream) at a bicycle shop or something odd like that...

Once I brazed a small nut onto a friend's headers on a 307 Chevelle, as 
a mounting point for the clutch return spring. :) That has held on for 
over a year w/o problems, and this guy beats the hell out that motor...

-Bill


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From rhoads at adi.com  Thu Jan 14 15:54:17 1999
From: rhoads at adi.com (David Rhoads)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:54:17 -0500
Subject: Injector Selection
Message-ID: <mailman.32155.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks for all the responses to my quest of finding an appropriate set
of injectors.  The ford.txt.txt list of injectors was very helpful as
well as the Kinsler Fuel Injection phone number.

Thanks again,

-- 
. David Rhoads II  
. Applied Dynamics International
. 3800 Stone School Road, Ann Arbor, Mi 48108
. (734) 973-1300                                                
. rhoads at adi.com   website:  www.adi.com


From rwhughe at hal-pc.org  Thu Jan 14 16:05:47 1999
From: rwhughe at hal-pc.org (Robert W. Hughes)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:05:47 -0500
Subject: 93 Z disassembly - I have jsrs to non prom location.
Message-ID: <mailman.32156.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>  I did find some odd code that does jsr into the $5000 range,
> the prom is mapped from $8000-$FFFF, so $5000 would have to be
> built into the computer's internals.    There about 10 of these jsrs
> to different addresses in the $5000 range. 

GM had a diagnostic device that apparently allowed monitoring and
controlling/changing operation of the ECM for development purposes. It
mapped itself into the $5000 range when plugged in. There should be
several places in your software where a set of locations in the $5000
area is checked for a specific set of values and if found jmp/jsr
transfers are then made to this area. These addresses show at $5800 and
above in my ECM (7170)
-- 
Robert W. Hughes (Bob)
BackYard Engineering
Houston, Texas
rwhughe at hal-pc.org


From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 14 16:24:32 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:24:32 -0500
Subject: TranslatingEPROM images to maps
Message-ID: <mailman.32157.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 11:14 AM
Subject: TranslatingEPROM images to maps


>Well, I have access to a burner at work and a few qualified people to
assist me in burning a chip. I looked at the image for the 1226870 ECM and
I'm curious how I go about translating the image to the fuel, spark and
other maps I need to modify?

Find the math in Programming 101, then get delco edit from the
archives.   Then running Delcoedit with the conversion factor you're
looking for look for repeating patterns.  You should be able to find the
main timing table at least that away.
  If you can disasssemble it, or ask if someone would, and then
read the code that would be the most accurate/best way.
  But lacking that the delco edit, and experimenting can get you
along fairly well.  There was/is another GME at FTP, that I think was
for a 6870, so you might give that a gander for what the tables
might look like.  The tables vary in location from some applications
to the next..
Bruce
>
>Charles
>



From kv at us.ibm.com  Thu Jan 14 16:40:52 1999
From: kv at us.ibm.com (kv at us.ibm.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:40:52 -0500
Subject: Option Codes (Off Topic)
Message-ID: <mailman.32158.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>





Guess I better do that this time around... those little Chilton books only
go so far...  are the factory manuals strictly dealer items?

I got your info in the mail...Thanks!!  I am thinking it over.  I have this
never ending need to modify yet I still feel the pain from the last "less
than satisfying" modification!

________________________________________________
  Kevin Vannorsdel     IBM Arm Electronics Development
   408-256-6492                Tie 276-6492     kv at us.ibm.com



EFISYSTEMS at aol.com on 01/13/99 05:51:15 PM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu

To:   diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
cc:    (bcc: Kevin Vannorsdel/San Jose/IBM)
Subject:  Re: Option Codes (Off Topic)





Hi Kevin,
      If you get a Gm service manual for your vehicle it has all the
options
listed right in the front.....hth's
-Carl Summers

In a message dated 1/13/99 9:01:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, kv at us.ibm.com
writes:

<< Subj:   Option Codes (Off Topic)
 Date:    1/13/99 9:01:39 AM Pacific Standard Time
 From:    kv at us.ibm.com
 Sender:  owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:     diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu





 Has anyone seen a listing (or know how I can get one) of the three digit
 "option codes" and their associated options for a given vehicle?

 I have a new (used) car and am wondering what the thing came with.

 ________________________________________________
   Kevin Vannorsdel     IBM Arm Electronics Development
    408-256-6492                Tie 276-6492     kv at us.ibm.com






From rah at horizon.hit.net  Thu Jan 14 16:58:17 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:58:17 -0500
Subject: 93 Z disassembly - I have jsrs to non prom location.
Message-ID: <mailman.32159.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Thanks.  That does match the kind of addresses I am seeing. 

				Roger

On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Robert W. Hughes wrote:

> >  I did find some odd code that does jsr into the $5000 range,
> > the prom is mapped from $8000-$FFFF, so $5000 would have to be
> > built into the computer's internals.    There about 10 of these jsrs
> > to different addresses in the $5000 range. 
> 
> GM had a diagnostic device that apparently allowed monitoring and
> controlling/changing operation of the ECM for development purposes. It
> mapped itself into the $5000 range when plugged in. There should be
> several places in your software where a set of locations in the $5000
> area is checked for a specific set of values and if found jmp/jsr
> transfers are then made to this area. These addresses show at $5800 and
> above in my ECM (7170)
> -- 
> Robert W. Hughes (Bob)
> BackYard Engineering
> Houston, Texas
> rwhughe at hal-pc.org
> 



From trinity at golden.net  Thu Jan 14 17:19:50 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:19:50 -0500
Subject: 93 Z disassembly - I have jsrs to non prom location.
Message-ID: <mailman.32160.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hey,
>
>I have finished the TCC control routine, and I think I understand
>all of it, except how the TCC actually gets triggered.  

I wrote to the list on Dec. 21, 1998:

>>Try looking at the logic starting at D1C9. I suspect the TCC is controlled
here >>though I've never seen a PWM output at $4008 :)

Did you look there yet? That's where I think it is.

>There aren't
>any things checking the TCC bit and setting a register in the $1000
>range.   I did find some odd code that does jsr into the $5000 range,
>the prom is mapped from $8000-$FFFF, so $5000 would have to be
>built into the computer's internals.    

Not necessarily. Look on the ECM board and you'll see a 60-pin edge
connector. Likely GM attaches equipment to this port and maps code hooks in
the $5xxx range for testing and development etc. Closely examine the section
of code that looks at $5000 (among others) and compares the 16-bit value
there to #$7E5x. Then look in your code for opcode '7E' and you'll see it's
a JMP. The ECM checks for the presence of something attached there by
examining the program code there. If it seems valid (JMP $5800 for example),
the ECM enables the hooks. This is what I gather at least. I might be wrong.

Look around DC3E in your code, Roger, to see where the ECM checks to see if
there's something valid at the $5xxx range.

>There about 10 of these jsrs
>to different addresses in the $5000 range.  Does anyone have any
>idea what these do?   If I really want to know bad, I will setup
>a prom to read that range (while petting the watchdog), and output
>that data to the aldl port.  I am thinking some of the hardware
>operations (TCC and several others maybe) are being done there.
>

No normal hardware operations are done in these routines. They are strictly
GM development and test areas.

In most P4-style ECMs, you'll find the outputs controlled by accessing the
$3xxx registers and some registers in the $4xxx range. Some odd animals like
yours that actually have stuff mapped to $1xxx don't automatically use them
for discrete control. In the case of your TCC, I think you'll see $4008 is
the control output and they send either 100% duty to turn it on or 0% duty
to turn it off.

If you do write a PROM, try emulating the essential code at D1C9 and have it
toggle the value written to $4008 and then look at the TCC output for
activity. Don't forget to include lots of COP resets all over the place.


--
 Mike



From chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  Thu Jan 14 17:27:06 1999
From: chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jake Sternberg)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:27:06 -0500
Subject: O2 bunghole answers!
Message-ID: <mailman.32161.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


If y'all are looking for a way to mount an oxygen sensor
on your exhaust pipe, i'll tell ya how I do it.

After calling lots of hardware suppliers including
"Austin Nut & Bolt Company" and being unable to find
ANY 18mm 1.5 pitch nuts, i realized "duh" and walked
down the street to "Austin Cycle Salvage" and dug through
a nut/bolt bin for about 43 seconds and grabbed a handful
of said nuts, which among other things are used for the
rear axle nut on yamaha's and other bikes.  I grabbed four
for my motorcycle project and another few for other stuff.
Total cost was $1.00 plus 7 cents tax.

The only one i've installed so far was into my schoolbus;
I took my oxyacetylene cutting torch (lazy mans' drill)
and burned an appropriate sized hole in the pipe, screwed
a dead oxy sensor into the nut and gripped it with 
vise-grips, and grabbed the MIG welder, oh yeah.. wire feed
for the lazy mechanic.  No inert gas, it uses flux-core wire.

It worked beautifully, just as you would want an oxy sensor
bunghole to turn out, with the sensor held just so in the
exhaust stream.  The only bug with the installation was when
i foolishly removed the dead oxy sensor while mig welding and
then touched the welding wire to the threads of the nut!
Ouch.. Fonked up two oxy sensors trying to figure out what
had happened, thinking the nut had warped.  Then i went at
the tiny blob of weld with a Dremel grinder and once again
sensors would thread in and out like a well-oiled spark plug.

My opinion on brazing a bung on:  It should work, no problem.
I could be wrong, but i intend to do it on my motorcycle so
we'll see.. i'm mounting those sensors about 3.5" from the
exhaust valves.

good luck,
-jake



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Thu Jan 14 17:30:45 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:30:45 -0500
Subject: Option Codes (Off Topic)
Message-ID: <mailman.32162.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



kv at us.ibm.com wrote:
> 
> Guess I better do that this time around... those little Chilton books only
> go so far...  are the factory manuals strictly dealer items?

factory manuals for GM and most other makes are available from Helm. 
www.helminc.com, they also have an 800 number.  You'll like it much
better than the chiltons.

--steve


From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 14 17:54:43 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:54:43 -0500
Subject: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32163.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com> wrote:
> >
> > > (L4 vs V6, US vs Canada, non-backlit vs
> > > backlit, w/ oil gauge vs w/ volt gauge vs w/ no gauge)
> >
> > Yeah, I'm still trying to convert metric RPM into standard RPM.
> 
> Oil pressure in psi versus oil pressure in KPa's (for models with the
> oil pressure gauge in the tach.)  Yes it's silly.
> 
> --
> Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
> Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/

Silly?  Imagine the technician's shock when he ordered a temp gauge
for an Anerican Olds Cutlass, only to find out that GM makes a metric
part for replacement.  And that the parts books don't mention it, but
GM automatically ships the metric part no. gauge out when the standard
gauge is ordered. Then try telling the customer that.  Good old GM.  
Shannen



From james at brc.ubc.ca  Thu Jan 14 19:59:49 1999
From: james at brc.ubc.ca (James Weiler)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:59:49 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32164.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

ross, I got my bungs from Mopac (in Burnaby) for about $8 each.  I 
drilled holes in the collectors for the headers and had them Mig welded 
in place.
HTH
james


On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Ross Corrigan wrote:

> I'm going to need an O2 bung installed in my exhaust right below my header,
> is this something I can just drill out my exhaust and 'braze' the bung on?
> I have no welding/brazing etc experience but wouldn't mind learning.......
> 
> gonna need it for my 4Di and EGO sensor I've rallied the parts for
> 
> thanks in advance
> 
> (not directly efi I guess but I'm sure you guys can answer this...)
> 
> PS still looking for a fine deal on a 486 notebook w/ modem and working
> battery...
> 
> Ross Corrigan  /  Vancouver, Canada 
>   IZCC#255          EZCC #45a    BCZCR        
> 1980 280ZX  w/ parts from '68,'86,'87,'95 Camaro, '66, '69, '82 'vette, 82
> 280ZX, '86, '88 300ZXT,  and more
> 68 327 9.5:1,  2830lbs dry, GTech times dropping steadily;^) 
> ICQ # 11549358
> http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml
> http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg  'where a
> Z belongs'
> 


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Thu Jan 14 20:55:23 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:55:23 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32165.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The "Turbo Shop" has been mentioned several times. Does anyone
have contact info for them?

Charles Brooks



EFISYSTEMS at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In my opinion the best scenario(if you have the ambition) would be to get the
> 90-92 tpi harness from Painless Wiring, buy the software from Turbo Shop for
> the 7730 processor, and start tuning....


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Thu Jan 14 21:02:07 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:02:07 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32166.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Yeah, it's quite torquey (Technical term :) in it's current state.
I'm willing to lose  a little at the higher RPM's for the gain in
torque down low along with the flatter torque curve, better
mileage, and driveability.  Since it looks like I have access to
equipment and people who know how to operate it I think I would
like to learn how to tweak the stock PROM to get what I need. Once
I'm a little more confident maybe I'll switch to a fully
programmable EFI system.

Charles


ECMnut at aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
> With such a low RPM torque peak, some conservative
> rear-end gears (3.55-4.10) will probably work well.
> Peter mentioned traction linitations in a previous post.
> I couldn't agree more.  IF you can keep it connected
> to the pavement, the car should provide big fun..
> The 400 SBC makes lots of torque without such a
> TPI intake amplifying the issue.


From dossi at aha.ru  Thu Jan 14 21:21:10 1999
From: dossi at aha.ru (=?windows-1251?B?xOzo8vDo6Q==?=)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:21:10 -0500
Subject: Option Codes (Off Topic)
Message-ID: <mailman.32167.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I have converted GM RPO table into MS Excel-97 spreadsheet, if someone
interested ask sysadmin to leave GM RPO.zip in /pub FTP or if not see in
incoming don't know how long.

Dmitri Ossipovitch

>
>
>
>
>Has anyone seen a listing (or know how I can get one) of the three digit
>"option codes" and their associated options for a given vehicle?
>
>I have a new (used) car and am wondering what the thing came with.
>
>________________________________________________
>  Kevin Vannorsdel     IBM Arm Electronics Development
>   408-256-6492                Tie 276-6492     kv at us.ibm.com
>
>
>



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Fri Jan 15 00:03:59 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:03:59 -0500
Subject: 93 Z disassembly - I have jsrs to non prom location.
Message-ID: <mailman.32168.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Mike wrote:

> >Hey,
> >
> >I have finished the TCC control routine, and I think I understand
> >all of it, except how the TCC actually gets triggered.  
> 
> I wrote to the list on Dec. 21, 1998:
> 
> >>Try looking at the logic starting at D1C9. I suspect the TCC is controlled
> here >>though I've never seen a PWM output at $4008 :)
> 
> Did you look there yet? That's where I think it is.
>

I did look there.  I am going to have to examine it closer, and more
carefully.   The TCC is bothering me less since I believe one way or
the other if the right bit of $0066 is set that the TCC will somehow
lock itself.   I have figured out how the injectors are controlled (at
least at the HW level, and timer level).  I am still working on
exaclty how it calculated the required pulsewidth.

 > >There aren't
> >any things checking the TCC bit and setting a register in the $1000
> >range.   I did find some odd code that does jsr into the $5000 range,
> >the prom is mapped from $8000-$FFFF, so $5000 would have to be
> >built into the computer's internals.    
> 
> Not necessarily. Look on the ECM board and you'll see a 60-pin edge
> connector. Likely GM attaches equipment to this port and maps code hooks in
> the $5xxx range for testing and development etc. Closely examine the section
> of code that looks at $5000 (among others) and compares the 16-bit value
> there to #$7E5x. Then look in your code for opcode '7E' and you'll see it's
> a JMP. The ECM checks for the presence of something attached there by
> examining the program code there. If it seems valid (JMP $5800 for example),
> the ECM enables the hooks. This is what I gather at least. I might be wrong.
> 
> Look around DC3E in your code, Roger, to see where the ECM checks to see if
> there's something valid at the $5xxx range.

That actaully tells me alot.  I will look at the code with these ideas
in mine.

> 
> >There about 10 of these jsrs
> >to different addresses in the $5000 range.  Does anyone have any
> >idea what these do?   If I really want to know bad, I will setup
> >a prom to read that range (while petting the watchdog), and output
> >that data to the aldl port.  I am thinking some of the hardware
> >operations (TCC and several others maybe) are being done there.
> >
> 
> No normal hardware operations are done in these routines. They are strictly
> GM development and test areas.
> 
> In most P4-style ECMs, you'll find the outputs controlled by accessing the
> $3xxx registers and some registers in the $4xxx range. Some odd animals like
> yours that actually have stuff mapped to $1xxx don't automatically use them
> for discrete control. In the case of your TCC, I think you'll see $4008 is
> the control output and they send either 100% duty to turn it on or 0% duty
> to turn it off.
> 
> If you do write a PROM, try emulating the essential code at D1C9 and have it
> toggle the value written to $4008 and then look at the TCC output for
> activity. Don't forget to include lots of COP resets all over the place.
> 

YOu would not want to make the watchdog happy.  It might bite.

Thanks.

				Roger



From alipper at cardozo.org  Fri Jan 15 01:05:23 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:05:23 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32169.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Mike, you have some good ideas about a display.  Actually, you have some
very good ideas about the display.  I ahd also planned to incorporate at
least a small LCD display, and incorporated an expansion connector on the
board for just that purpose.  It's the one that doesn't actually go
anywhere, but has 8 CPU I/O bits and Vcc.  I'll put you down for as someone
who can potentially help.

			Al


>     I also plan to someday incorporate a programmable
>multi-function-display (MFD as we call them in the aircraft business) which
>can display anything from engine parameters to digital maps and diagnostics.
>Basically this would only require about a 4" color LCD display much like
>those on palmtop or handheld computers that you would interface to the
>on-board computer.  With off-the-shelf SW appllications, you could virtually
>do and display anything you could do on you desktop.  With the addition of a
>cd-rom drive, digital maps, audio, etc, could even be added at very little
>costs.
>




From wilman at hkabc.net  Fri Jan 15 01:58:16 1999
From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:58:16 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
Message-ID: <mailman.32170.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



----------
> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
> Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 10:04 AM
> 
> I've looked at several of them but frankly I'm not sure what
> I should be looking for in a programmable EFI system. The
> Accell DFI system seems popular and so do the Haltech
> products. I must have looked at a dozen Mfr.'s. I was leaning
> toward the Holley system but after receiving several messages
> on the problems and deficiencies they have I changed my mind.
> Which system(s) is/are considered the best?
> 
> Charles
> 
I am using GEMS EM20. It is very good.
They are at http://www.gems.co.uk

> 
> 
> David Sagers wrote:
> > 
> > In putting a TPI on a 406 the factory settings work just fine
> > with the 28 lbs injectors, but a built motor is very different
> > than a stock motor.
> > 
> > For a stock 406 28 lb injectors are all that's needed.  If
> > it's built the perhaps a 30 lb.  Also consider finding a
> > programable system so that you can dial in the fuel & ignition
> > curves to match your cam, headers, etc...  I would look for a
> > computer that can be programmed from a lap top while you drive.
> >  Other members can tell you how to burn new chips.  It's your
> > choice.


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Fri Jan 15 02:37:57 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:37:57 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32171.1369893292.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Mike, you have some good ideas about a display.  Actually, you have some
> very good ideas about the display.  I ahd also planned to incorporate at
> least a small LCD display, and incorporated an expansion connector on the
> board for just that purpose.  It's the one that doesn't actually go
> anywhere, but has 8 CPU I/O bits and Vcc.  I'll put you down for as someone
> who can potentially help.

I haven't been following this thread (or any thread for that
matter) as much as I'd like, however I did download your
work Al to see what you've done and how you've done it. 
While my interest is primarily PC based EFI for a variety of
reasons, I too am interested in displaying the 
performance/status of the powertrain/vehicle to the driver
via LCD panels, in fact, I purchased from www.eio.com two
such $99 5.5" sharp NTSC displays in hopes of doing so.  I
intended at one time to utilize those old VIC chips from the
Commodore 64, as I had a few lying around as replacements,
but I can't seem to find the chips.  I wouldn't mind
participating in this if this shall be considered a group
participation thing.  ALso, very interested in the EFI of
course.

-- 
Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

http://www.xephic.dynip.com
1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Fri Jan 15 03:02:53 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:02:53 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
Message-ID: <mailman.32172.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

 > Which system(s) is/are considered the best?

Well Charles, they are all good, and they all suck.  <grin>

The Holley Projection system is more of an analog system,
like a carbeurator, with enough sophistication to make for a
reliable, stable air/fuel system.  Advantages are that its
replaces your carb, so your regular everyday existing intake
manifold would be just dandy, thus reducing the overall cost
of converting to EFI.  Another advantage, is you can change
the settings very easily, using either a "black box" or a
laptop, depending on which model you buy, and update your
settings if you decide to toss say, your stock cam, and
through in a "thumper" cam.  Its flexible, adaptable, and
works out of the box.  There are two major drawbacks that I
see - first, it uses your intake manifold, which means your
rough idle due to fuel "sheeting" on the walls of your
intake manifold still exist, and it doesn't utilize an O2
sensor (that I know of), therefore its not a feedback
system.  If you are concerned about emissions, this
obviously can become a problem.  Throttle Body EFI, where
you have few injectors (one to many) servicing many
cylinders, all experience this sheeting problem in a worse
case scenario.  Sheeting is when the fuel collects along the
intake runners, then as the miniscus of the fuel is
exceeded, it slothes off into your cylinders.  Another
example of a miniscus is when you overfill a glass of water,
and have the water higher than the glass, in a sort of
bubble - this is the miniscus - or the natural attraction of
molecules that is stronger than the force of gravity against
its own weight.  Sorry for the horrible explaination, its
been ages since I've opened a science book.  The other draw
back of a wet-style manifold is that certain cylinders
typically get more fuel than others, since the carb unit or
throttle body is located in the center - takes fuel longer
to travel longer distances.

Now, this means my opinion is that multi-port EFI offers a
lot of advantages.  First, is the sheeting problem
disappears entirely.  Because air is much more movable than
fuel, your manifold design is not as mission critical as in
a wet design, therefore you can get away with a lot more so
to speak in manifold use/design/construction.  Also, most,
if not all, multi-port injection systems (like Electromotive
& Haltech, two name two of many) can control each injector
independantly, based on feedback from an o2 sensor.  This
means that your computer, based on RPM, load, temperature,
manifold pressure of vaccuum, can determine the "right"
amount of fuel necessary to match the airflow, which you as
a driver determine with your gas pedal.  This higher level
of control obviously is more desirable, especially in a high
performance/low emissions application, but it really costs
more.  You have more sensors, fabrication if you are not
using and OEM EFI system on a similarly styled
same-manufacturer engine (as in, late model camaro EFI on a
1969 Caprice, for example).

I've never had the opportunity to play with the DFI system,
however I have played with both the mid 80's OEM GM systems,
as well as the Haltech ECMs and the Electromotive ECMs.  For
flexibility and control, I prefer the Haltech.  I managed
with a little electronic add-ons to drive three injectors
per cylinder mixing different fuels into a twin-turbo V6. 
With the Electromotive unit, I struggled and struggled to
get it right, which I never did.  Don't get me wrong, the
Electromotive is a good, reliable unit, and their tech
support is really good.  I asked them a lot of stupid
questions and they were patient and gave me a lot of good
answers.  When they didn't know, which was rare, they stated
such.  I also found that the electromotive units were easier
to start off - the "Maps" for generic engines were
reasonable and close to what I needed, therefore instead of
spending a day entering data, which are guesses at best, I
could use an existing map or profile, and "tweek" from
there.  In contrast, the Haltech unit was significantly more
flexible, but at the cost of being able to attach, turn on,
and at least start the motor and tweak from there.  The
included maps didn't fit my application at all.  THough, I'm
sure Haltech doesn't have lots of call for twin turbo 3 inj
per cyl V6 applications, to be entirely fair.

One of my many slow moving projects is to convert a Chrysler
383 stroker (431 cid) to run under the OEM GM system I have
leached from a junkyard, including all sensors, MAP, O2,
water temp, crank, etc.  The intake on the 383 has already
been milled to support an injector per cylinder, however I
have not welded in the bosses yet.  I still have the engine
apart trying to figure out the insides.  Anyway, long story
short, the only issue I see is fabricating the crank sensor
mounting bracket, and making it adjustable incase my bracket
is off.

There is a book by Jeff Hartmann, called "Fuel INjection
something", I don't recall the exact title, but it does
cover installation and tuning of the Holley system, the
Haltech system as well as the Electromotive system, and
basic theory, math formulas, in case you want to fabricate
your own system either from scratch, or from oem parts and
ECMs.

While this is not the answer you want to hear, I can't say
for sure that any one system is better than the other.  They
all have advantages and disadvantages over each other, and
different price ranges to boot.  I'd highly recommend Jeff
Hartman's book - for 20 bucks it gives you a good overview,
and some actual installations on specific units, and from
there, you can make a better choice.  Sorry I don't have the
exact title, but it has a black cover and you can't miss it
:)


-- 
Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

http://www.xephic.dynip.com
1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)


From spoonie at deltanet.com  Fri Jan 15 03:32:36 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:32:36 -0500
Subject: 93 Z disassembly - I have jsrs to non prom location.
Message-ID: <mailman.32173.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The JRS are to the GM heads up algo that is used to create 
to original factory cailb. GM'ers call this the "heads up system"
Ward Spoonemore

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Mike Pitts
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 1999 4:54 AM
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: 93 Z disassembly - I have jsrs to non prom location.



My guess is that the JSR's into the $5000 locations are used 
for test equipment.  Is there a check for a particular word at $5000 
which sets a bit if present?   Then if the bit is set the routines are 
called?  Normally, the equipment isn't present so the routines are 
never called.

The TCC in my 93 is activated by setting a PWM output (at $306A) 
to 100% DC.

-Mike
==========================================
Mike Pitts
Delray Beach, FL
mpitts at emi.net
==========================================
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 11:52 PM
Subject: 93 Z disassembly - I have jsrs to non prom location.


>Hey,
>
>I have finished the TCC control routine, and I think I understand
>all of it, except how the TCC actually gets triggered.  There aren't
>any things checking the TCC bit and setting a register in the $1000
>range.   I did find some odd code that does jsr into the $5000 range,
>the prom is mapped from $8000-$FFFF, so $5000 would have to be
>built into the computer's internals.    There about 10 of these jsrs
>to different addresses in the $5000 range.  Does anyone have any
>idea what these do?   If I really want to know bad, I will setup
>a prom to read that range (while petting the watchdog), and output
>that data to the aldl port.  I am thinking some of the hardware
>operations (TCC and several others maybe) are being done there.
>
> Roger
>



From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Fri Jan 15 03:37:12 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:37:12 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32174.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:57:08 -0500 Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
writes:
>I've been successful drilling a hole in the pipe/header large enough
>for the sensor portion of the O2 sensor, and welding an 18mm spark
>plug anti-fouler around the hole.  The anti-fouler needs to be cut
>short enough so the sensor protrudes into the exhaust stream.  If you
>find a source for more "professional" bungs, please post it.
>Shannen

You can get the bungs designed specifically for the sensors (they're
actually fairly thick) from Ramchargers (and probablly lots of other
speed shops), Summit Racing http://www.summitracing.com  and from Holley.
 If you buy the Pro-Jection kit, the bung comes with it.

Ray Drouillard

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Fri Jan 15 03:37:19 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:37:19 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32175.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:18:58 -0800 Ross Corrigan <zxv at istar.ca> writes:
>I'm going to need an O2 bung installed in my exhaust right below my
header,
>is this something I can just drill out my exhaust and 'braze' the bung
on?
>I have no welding/brazing etc experience but wouldn't mind 
>learning.......

A muffler shop can do it cheaply.  If you want to weld it, I would
suggest practicing on something equally thin before you try.  It's easy
to blow a hole through exhaust piping.


>
>gonna need it for my 4Di and EGO sensor I've rallied the parts for

If you want a looooong description of my experience of adding the 4Di
system to a Jeep, send me mail direct.

>
>thanks in advance
>
>(not directly efi I guess but I'm sure you guys can answer this...)
>
>PS still looking for a fine deal on a 486 notebook w/ modem and working
>battery...

You don't need a modem for the 4Di system - just an RS232 port.  Also,
the minimum system requirements for the 4Di software is a 286 with EGA
video.  I ended up buying a 486 DX2/50 and it is plenty fast.  I paid
around $300.00 for it (used) about a year ago.  You should be able to get
one for less now.

Also, I power it with the standard 110V transformer and a cheap ($20.00)
inverter.  The battery doesn't last long enough to suit me.

Ray Drouillard
'89 Jeep Grand Wagoneer
AMC 360, Edelbrock Performer manifold, 3" exhaust system, RV cam, Jacobs
Omni-Magnum, Holley Pro-Jection 4Di


>
>Ross Corrigan  /  Vancouver, Canada 
>  IZCC#255          EZCC #45a    BCZCR        
>1980 280ZX  w/ parts from '68,'86,'87,'95 Camaro, '66, '69, '82 
>'vette, 82
>280ZX, '86, '88 300ZXT,  and more
>68 327 9.5:1,  2830lbs dry, GTech times dropping steadily;^) 
>ICQ # 11549358
>http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml
>http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg  
>'where a
>Z belongs'
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From jweir at worldnet.att.net  Fri Jan 15 03:38:03 1999
From: jweir at worldnet.att.net (Jason Weir)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:38:03 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
Message-ID: <mailman.32176.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



WILMAN wrote:
> > I've looked at several of them but frankly I'm not sure what
> > I should be looking for in a programmable EFI system. The
> > Accell DFI system seems popular and so do the Haltech
> > products. I must have looked at a dozen Mfr.'s. I was leaning
> > toward the Holley system but after receiving several messages
> > on the problems and deficiencies they have I changed my mind.
> > Which system(s) is/are considered the best?
> >
> > Charles
> >
> I am using GEMS EM20. It is very good.
> They are at http://www.gems.co.uk
>

About how much did the EM20 cost if you don't mind me asking?  

Jason


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Fri Jan 15 04:08:43 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:08:43 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
Message-ID: <mailman.32177.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

A couple of points:

Holley makes some analog systems, but at least two (4D and 4Di) are
digital.  Both have O2 sensors and run in closed-loop mode quite well. 
In fact, they work without even being programmed in closed-loop mode at
cruise, though they get really stupid when you step on or release the
throttle.  A little programming and they run beautifully.

Some of the older kits have a closed-loop kit, which is an O2 sensor and
an extra box.  I have seen a picture of it, but know nothing about it
beyond that.

The Holley Pro-Jection 4Di box gives you unparelleled programming
ability, and the ability to record every sensor, play it back, graph it,
export it to Excel, or whatever you want to do for tuning purposes.

The 4Di unit will also control your spark advance.

What you said about a "wet" manifold is all true.  I have found that it
doesn't cause me any trouble, however.  Part of this might be because all
of the runners in my Edelbrock Performer manifold are the same size and
shape (except perhaps mirror imaged), with the exception that the lower
plane has a bit more vertical travel right under the throttle body.

Hey, it worked well with carburaters, and works even better with fuel
injection.

Ray Drouillard
'89 Jeep Grand Wagoneer
Pro-Jection 4Di (and other stuff)


On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 02:57:28 +0000 Frederic Breitwieser
<frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com> writes:
> > Which system(s) is/are considered the best?
>
>Well Charles, they are all good, and they all suck.  <grin>
>
>The Holley Projection system is more of an analog system,
>like a carbeurator, with enough sophistication to make for a
>reliable, stable air/fuel system.  Advantages are that its
>replaces your carb, so your regular everyday existing intake
>manifold would be just dandy, thus reducing the overall cost
>of converting to EFI.  Another advantage, is you can change
>the settings very easily, using either a "black box" or a
>laptop, depending on which model you buy, and update your
>settings if you decide to toss say, your stock cam, and
>through in a "thumper" cam.  Its flexible, adaptable, and
>works out of the box.  There are two major drawbacks that I
>see - first, it uses your intake manifold, which means your
>rough idle due to fuel "sheeting" on the walls of your
>intake manifold still exist, and it doesn't utilize an O2
>sensor (that I know of), therefore its not a feedback
>system.  If you are concerned about emissions, this
>obviously can become a problem.  Throttle Body EFI, where
>you have few injectors (one to many) servicing many
>cylinders, all experience this sheeting problem in a worse
>case scenario.  Sheeting is when the fuel collects along the
>intake runners, then as the miniscus of the fuel is
>exceeded, it slothes off into your cylinders.  Another
>example of a miniscus is when you overfill a glass of water,
>and have the water higher than the glass, in a sort of
>bubble - this is the miniscus - or the natural attraction of
>molecules that is stronger than the force of gravity against
>its own weight.  Sorry for the horrible explaination, its
>been ages since I've opened a science book.  The other draw
>back of a wet-style manifold is that certain cylinders
>typically get more fuel than others, since the carb unit or
>throttle body is located in the center - takes fuel longer
>to travel longer distances.
>
>Now, this means my opinion is that multi-port EFI offers a
>lot of advantages.  First, is the sheeting problem
>disappears entirely.  Because air is much more movable than
>fuel, your manifold design is not as mission critical as in
>a wet design, therefore you can get away with a lot more so
>to speak in manifold use/design/construction.  Also, most,
>if not all, multi-port injection systems (like Electromotive
>& Haltech, two name two of many) can control each injector
>independantly, based on feedback from an o2 sensor.  This
>means that your computer, based on RPM, load, temperature,
>manifold pressure of vaccuum, can determine the "right"
>amount of fuel necessary to match the airflow, which you as
>a driver determine with your gas pedal.  This higher level
>of control obviously is more desirable, especially in a high
>performance/low emissions application, but it really costs
>more.  You have more sensors, fabrication if you are not
>using and OEM EFI system on a similarly styled
>same-manufacturer engine (as in, late model camaro EFI on a
>1969 Caprice, for example).
>
>I've never had the opportunity to play with the DFI system,
>however I have played with both the mid 80's OEM GM systems,
>as well as the Haltech ECMs and the Electromotive ECMs.  For
>flexibility and control, I prefer the Haltech.  I managed
>with a little electronic add-ons to drive three injectors
>per cylinder mixing different fuels into a twin-turbo V6. 
>With the Electromotive unit, I struggled and struggled to
>get it right, which I never did.  Don't get me wrong, the
>Electromotive is a good, reliable unit, and their tech
>support is really good.  I asked them a lot of stupid
>questions and they were patient and gave me a lot of good
>answers.  When they didn't know, which was rare, they stated
>such.  I also found that the electromotive units were easier
>to start off - the "Maps" for generic engines were
>reasonable and close to what I needed, therefore instead of
>spending a day entering data, which are guesses at best, I
>could use an existing map or profile, and "tweek" from
>there.  In contrast, the Haltech unit was significantly more
>flexible, but at the cost of being able to attach, turn on,
>and at least start the motor and tweak from there.  The
>included maps didn't fit my application at all.  THough, I'm
>sure Haltech doesn't have lots of call for twin turbo 3 inj
>per cyl V6 applications, to be entirely fair.
>
>One of my many slow moving projects is to convert a Chrysler
>383 stroker (431 cid) to run under the OEM GM system I have
>leached from a junkyard, including all sensors, MAP, O2,
>water temp, crank, etc.  The intake on the 383 has already
>been milled to support an injector per cylinder, however I
>have not welded in the bosses yet.  I still have the engine
>apart trying to figure out the insides.  Anyway, long story
>short, the only issue I see is fabricating the crank sensor
>mounting bracket, and making it adjustable incase my bracket
>is off.
>
>There is a book by Jeff Hartmann, called "Fuel INjection
>something", I don't recall the exact title, but it does
>cover installation and tuning of the Holley system, the
>Haltech system as well as the Electromotive system, and
>basic theory, math formulas, in case you want to fabricate
>your own system either from scratch, or from oem parts and
>ECMs.
>
>While this is not the answer you want to hear, I can't say
>for sure that any one system is better than the other.  They
>all have advantages and disadvantages over each other, and
>different price ranges to boot.  I'd highly recommend Jeff
>Hartman's book - for 20 bucks it gives you a good overview,
>and some actual installations on specific units, and from
>there, you can make a better choice.  Sorry I don't have the
>exact title, but it has a black cover and you can't miss it
>:)
>
>
>-- 
>Frederic Breitwieser
>Bridgeport, CT 06606
>
>http://www.xephic.dynip.com
>1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
>1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
>1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
>2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From zxv at istar.ca  Fri Jan 15 04:47:49 1999
From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:47:49 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32178.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>gonna need it for my 4Di and EGO sensor I've rallied the parts for
>
>If you want a looooong description of my experience of adding the 4Di
>system to a Jeep, send me mail direct.

thanks, you actually sent it to me almost a year ago, still have it
archived and printed!  thanks again

>>PS still looking for a fine deal on a 486 notebook w/ modem and working
>>battery...
>
>You don't need a modem for the 4Di system - just an RS232 port.  Also,
>the minimum system requirements for the 4Di software is a 286 with EGA
>video.  I ended up buying a 486 DX2/50 and it is plenty fast.  I paid
>around $300.00 for it (used) about a year ago.  You should be able to get
>one for less now.

thanks for the modem info;-))  I was going to have Lingerfelter monitor my
tables and email back recc'd changes while on the fly;^)  Waiting to find a
solid 486DX system for <$300CD (200US), good thing I'm patient;-)

>Also, I power it with the standard 110V transformer and a cheap ($20.00)
>inverter.  The battery doesn't last long enough to suit me.

sounds great



From scirocco at mail.bip.net  Fri Jan 15 09:20:57 1999
From: scirocco at mail.bip.net (Roland Johansson)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 04:20:57 -0500
Subject: SV: Factory Instrument Panels
Message-ID: <mailman.32179.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Sounds like it's time for you boys to switch over 100% to the
metric system and don't get stuck in the middle. :-)



Roland Johansson
Scirocco 1,6l TIC -82
> > Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > (L4 vs V6, US vs Canada, non-backlit vs
> > > > backlit, w/ oil gauge vs w/ volt gauge vs w/ no gauge)
> > >
> > > Yeah, I'm still trying to convert metric RPM into standard
RPM.
> > 
> > Oil pressure in psi versus oil pressure in KPa's (for models
with the
> > oil pressure gauge in the tach.)  Yes it's silly.
> > 
> > --
> > Ludis Langens                               ludis (at)
cruzers (dot) com
> > Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: 
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/
> 
> Silly?  Imagine the technician's shock when he ordered a temp
gauge
> for an Anerican Olds Cutlass, only to find out that GM makes a
metric
> part for replacement.  And that the parts books don't mention
it, but
> GM automatically ships the metric part no. gauge out when the
standard
> gauge is ordered. Then try telling the customer that.  Good
old GM.  
> Shannen



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 15 14:24:29 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:24:29 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32180.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've been thinking about a simple EFI using a string of 555s.
Just like the "Normal" math would be, ie first 555, base pulse,
second Coolant temp correction, third MAP, and so on for like
6+ 555 all in series.  Trouble is this gets me, an addition of
correction factors, instead of multipling them, is this a major
problem?.  I realize this ain't gonna be as good as a oem,
ecm, but would like to get fairly close.
  I'm looking to keep this as much as an entry level thing, meaning
nothing but 555s, op-amps, and a final drive.  
  On a related note, does anyone know if the gm ecms use a 
standard "pinout" for the resistors in the netres?.  Is the netres
only for full limp home mode, meaning it goes to fixed timing?.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Cheers
Bruce  



From AL8001 at aol.com  Fri Jan 15 14:44:55 1999
From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:44:55 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32181.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 99-01-15 09:33:21 EST, nacelp at bright.net writes:

> I'm looking to keep this as much as an entry level thing, meaning
>nothing but 555s, op-amps, and a final drive.  

Something like this would be great for testing junk yard engines or moveing a
car that's a "work in progress" when the ECM and related parts are gone.

Harold


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Fri Jan 15 15:36:19 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles  Brooks)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:36:19 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
Message-ID: <mailman.32182.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>I am using GEMS EM20. It is very good. They are at 
http://www.gems.co.uk   <<


Can you tell me a little about your application?

I noticed that Haltech has a replacement for some of the 
Delco puters. They call it the "E6GM". I printed out the 
info sheet from the Haltech page, but they didn't have any 
specs, or a list of ECU's that it could replace. Does anyone 
have any info on this option?

Charles


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 15 16:15:14 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:15:14 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
Message-ID: <mailman.32183.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)


>>>I am using GEMS EM20. It is very good. They are at 
>http://www.gems.co.uk   <<
>
>
>Can you tell me a little about your application?
>
>I noticed that Haltech has a replacement for some of the 
>Delco puters. They call it the "E6GM". I printed out the 
>info sheet from the Haltech page, but they didn't have any 
>specs, or a list of ECU's that it could replace. Does anyone 
>have any info on this option?

With a repin does about any map delco appllication,  looks to be
an exact 808 Plug+Play, would make sense since they are in 
Australia.   Options for leading/trailing edge for ignition injector
firing figured by cyl number divide by,  22 entries per level for
fuel, 1-2-3 bar, and full time bar.  Remote programming by laptop.
If you find their site (in archives lacking any leads) it shows all
the tables/switches/options in demo download.  Full time baro 
is optional.
Bruce 
>
>Charles
>



From alipper at cardozo.org  Fri Jan 15 18:43:27 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:43:27 -0500
Subject: No welding needed for O2 sensor mounting
Message-ID: <mailman.32184.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

As part of the ECU6 project, we needed to develop a way for the average
backyard mechanic to securely mount the EGO (Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor to an
exhaust pipe without welding.  The result was the development of a remarkable
clamp-on bracket that has been working flawlessly for over a year on the test
vehicle.  I will try to post a picture and/or plans to the ECU6 project page
(http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/ )
 within the next couple of weeks.  Naturally, you do need to drill a hole in
the exhaust pipe, and making the mounting clamp requires some metal work, but
it's the sort of things someone with a metal shop can make a couple of in under
an hour.


                                Al

Al Lipper
efi at cardozo.org




From pjb at gt350.corp.sgi.com  Fri Jan 15 19:06:17 1999
From: pjb at gt350.corp.sgi.com (Pete Boggini)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:06:17 -0500
Subject: O2 bung brazing/welding?
Message-ID: <mailman.32185.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Raymond C Drouillard said:
>
>You can get the bungs designed specifically for the sensors (they're
>actually fairly thick) from Ramchargers (and probablly lots of other
>speed shops), Summit Racing http://www.summitracing.com  and from Holley.
> If you buy the Pro-Jection kit, the bung comes with it.
>

  I'd recommend against the K/N O2 bungs.  I bought two, drove my Mustang
to the muffler shop and asked him to weld them in.  He used a torch to 
burn the hole, then arc welded them in.  He had a bear of a time with them.
At first he thought there was a coating on my headers, but I told him they
were nothing special.  Then, when he tried to get the O2 that use used to
locate them out, it was very tough to get out.  He got the first one set up
and working (by using a tap), then he pulled a Perfection one off his shelf.  
It went in with no troubles.  He figured it was inferior metal used on the K/N 
unit, but they both cost about $10.00.  So, I'd recommend you just hit the muffler 
shop and ask them to weld them in and get them from the same shop, or get the same 
brand they use.  Perfection should be sold by most parts stores.

peterb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Boggini
Systems Administrator/Corporate Operations
E-mail: pjb at corp.sgi.com
Phone: (650)933-6858
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From alipper at cardozo.org  Fri Jan 15 19:27:07 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:27:07 -0500
Subject: EFI system plans - ZIP Error flag
Message-ID: <mailman.32186.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I just tried the download/unzip myself, and it seemed to work okay.  It
could be that AOL was having server problems.  No matter, it's fixed now.

			Al

At 10:55 PM 1/13/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Al,
>
>Just downloaded the zip file (http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/Ecu6.zip), and
>when I tried to unpack got an error (went into DOS and used zipfix, but
>came up with checksum error).  Also tried 2 different zip progs (WinZip 7.O
>and Archivist).  Did try a second download just in case - same problem.
>Will try from the office tomorrow just in case its ISP related (unlikely).  
>
>Have you tried a download/unpack lately?  I am just wondering whether AOL
>has mangled your files ....
>
>Cheers,
>
>Tony
>
>
>
>




From alipper at cardozo.org  Fri Jan 15 19:27:12 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:27:12 -0500
Subject: ECU6 development help
Message-ID: <mailman.32187.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bob, great to hear you're interested.  I'll put you down as a hardware
design person, if that sounds good to you?

			Al

Al Lipper
efi at cardozo.org

At 07:59 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm interested in your injection system
>
>It seems you desire to perhaps make this a commercial product, such as a
>build it yourself, or kit form.
>
>I have an electronics/process control background plus I'm working on a 2.3
>l Turbo EFI Ford (37 lb boost, Esslinger head, bla bla) not trying to give...




From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Fri Jan 15 19:29:02 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:29:02 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's 
Message-ID: <mailman.32188.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce, thanks for the info. This seems to be the cheapest way
to go as far as fully programmable systems go. For 695 you get
the computer and the software. It looks like most of the other
Mfr.'s (ACCELL comes to mind) sell the ECU and the S/W
separately.  I guess the next question is how much more detail
is available in something like the ACCELL DFI system?

If I decided to go with this OEM replacement, would I end up
buying the DFI 6 months down the road? I guess that's more of
a rhetorical question :)

Charles



Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> With a repin does about any map delco appllication,  looks to be
> an exact 808 Plug+Play, would make sense since they are in
> Australia.   Options for leading/trailing edge for ignition injector
> firing figured by cyl number divide by,  22 entries per level for
> fuel, 1-2-3 bar, and full time bar.  Remote programming by laptop.
> If you find their site (in archives lacking any leads) it shows all
> the tables/switches/options in demo download.  Full time baro
> is optional.


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 15 20:21:16 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:21:16 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's 
Message-ID: <mailman.32189.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: Programmable ECU's

It's probably over but call Rob at Force Fuel, Force EFI, in Miami FL, there
was just a group by for the 3rd Gen F-Bodies, where they were $550.
Some folksreally swear by the Accel, and the Hal stuff has been on the
market
for years, so somebody likes/is buying it.  I have a E6, but haven't
connected
it to anything yet, but it seems nice, and I like the full time Baro option.
I like mountain driving.
Bruce


>Bruce, thanks for the info. This seems to be the cheapest way
>to go as far as fully programmable systems go. For 695 you get
>the computer and the software. It looks like most of the other
>Mfr.'s (ACCELL comes to mind) sell the ECU and the S/W
>separately.  I guess the next question is how much more detail
>is available in something like the ACCELL DFI system?
>
>If I decided to go with this OEM replacement, would I end up
>buying the DFI 6 months down the road? I guess that's more of
>a rhetorical question :)
>
>Charles
>
>
>
>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>>
>> With a repin does about any map delco appllication,  looks to be
>> an exact 808 Plug+Play, would make sense since they are in
>> Australia.   Options for leading/trailing edge for ignition injector
>> firing figured by cyl number divide by,  22 entries per level for
>> fuel, 1-2-3 bar, and full time bar.  Remote programming by laptop.
>> If you find their site (in archives lacking any leads) it shows all
>> the tables/switches/options in demo download.  Full time baro
>> is optional.
>



From daholtz at axionet.com  Fri Jan 15 21:31:14 1999
From: daholtz at axionet.com (Don Holtz)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:31:14 -0500
Subject: Ignition coil inductance?
Message-ID: <mailman.32190.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello!

I am working on a device for testing ECM functionality.  When completed it
will be able to measure a variety of ECM parameters like injector duty, etc.

Can anyone guess at what a good "typical" primary-side ignition coil
inductance value might be?  A range of value would be good.

I need to know this because my tester is essentialy simulating engine
function while taking measurements.  So, I also need to simulate the
ignition circuitry too.

I hope this makes some sense.

Cheers,
Don







From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Fri Jan 15 21:37:59 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:37:59 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's
Message-ID: <mailman.32191.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Wow, that's a pretty decent discount. I'll have to try to get in on
a group buy in the future. 

Charles


Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> It's probably over but call Rob at Force Fuel, Force EFI, in Miami FL, there
> was just a group by for the 3rd Gen F-Bodies, where they were $550.
> Some folksreally swear by the Accel, and the Hal stuff has been on the
> market
> for years, so somebody likes/is buying it.  I have a E6, but haven't
> connected
> it to anything yet, but it seems nice, and I like the full time Baro option.
> I like mountain driving.
> Bruce


From mssinc at zoomnet.net  Fri Jan 15 22:22:48 1999
From: mssinc at zoomnet.net (mssinc at zoomnet.net)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:22:48 -0500
Subject: ECU6 development help
Message-ID: <mailman.32192.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Al,

I'm not a design type...fabrication, specifications, tuneing, and putting
people/things togather are my strong points. I also spent alot of time in
purchasing so I can help with contract fabrication of PCB, obtaining
materals etc. my in real life nick is halfprice, I earned it!!

Thanks

Bob Price

At 11:36 AM 1/15/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Bob, great to hear you're interested.  I'll put you down as a hardware
>design person, if that sounds good to you?
>
>			Al
>
>Al Lipper
>efi at cardozo.org
>
>At 07:59 PM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>I'm interested in your injection system
>>
>>It seems you desire to perhaps make this a commercial product, such as a
>>build it yourself, or kit form.
>>
>>I have an electronics/process control background plus I'm working on a 2.3
>>l Turbo EFI Ford (37 lb boost, Esslinger head, bla bla) not trying to
give...
>
>
>



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Fri Jan 15 23:38:56 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:38:56 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32193.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I did a little reading through the archives and came across a post
which mentioned that one drawback to the E6GM was that the RPM
increments were 1000RPM as opposed to 500RPM in another system.

Can someone explain the difference in operation and the effect on
programming as well as driveablity?

TIA,

Charles Brooks


From sebring at vnet.net  Fri Jan 15 23:39:22 1999
From: sebring at vnet.net (Jimmy)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:39:22 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32194.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Al,

I've also downloaded your files and am very interested.
I'm available to help on a PC based front end for
programming etc. I also have extensive automotive
EFI and other experience.

Jim Santoro

Sebring MX w/TPI
1977 Triumph Bonneville SJ (soon to be injected)
1986 Fiat X1/9
1935 Morgan SS Replica (under construction)
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederic Breitwieser <frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: ECU6 EFI system construction


>> Mike, you have some good ideas about a display.  Actually, you have some
>> very good ideas about the display.  I ahd also planned to incorporate at
>> least a small LCD display, and incorporated an expansion connector on the
>> board for just that purpose.  It's the one that doesn't actually go
>> anywhere, but has 8 CPU I/O bits and Vcc.  I'll put you down for as
someone
>> who can potentially help.
>
>I haven't been following this thread (or any thread for that
>matter) as much as I'd like, however I did download your
>work Al to see what you've done and how you've done it.
>While my interest is primarily PC based EFI for a variety of
>reasons, I too am interested in displaying the
>performance/status of the powertrain/vehicle to the driver
>via LCD panels, in fact, I purchased from www.eio.com two
>such $99 5.5" sharp NTSC displays in hopes of doing so.  I
>intended at one time to utilize those old VIC chips from the
>Commodore 64, as I had a few lying around as replacements,
>but I can't seem to find the chips.  I wouldn't mind
>participating in this if this shall be considered a group
>participation thing.  ALso, very interested in the EFI of
>course.
>
>--
>Frederic Breitwieser
>Bridgeport, CT 06606
>
>http://www.xephic.dynip.com
>1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
>1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
>1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
>2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)
>



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Fri Jan 15 23:56:27 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:56:27 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32195.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 06:39 PM 1/15/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I did a little reading through the archives and came across a post
>which mentioned that one drawback to the E6GM was that the RPM
>increments were 1000RPM as opposed to 500RPM in another system.
>
>Can someone explain the difference in operation and the effect on
>programming as well as driveablity?
>

Programming it may be easier, as there are only half as many steps as other
systems... the drawback is driveability, because the fuel and timing maps
are more interpolation than data...  Much more room for error.

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 00:03:48 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:03:48 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32196.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: DIY_EFI Fuel Injection List <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 6:57 PM
Subject: Haltech E6GM

1,000 rpm for a 12,000 rpm capacity calibration, 500 rpm resolution for a
6,000 rpm calibation.  Meaning no correction over 6,000 rpm not
that the ecm wouldn't work at higher speeds.
Bruce


>I did a little reading through the archives and came across a post
>which mentioned that one drawback to the E6GM was that the RPM
>increments were 1000RPM as opposed to 500RPM in another system.
>
>Can someone explain the difference in operation and the effect on
>programming as well as driveablity?
>
>TIA,
>
>Charles Brooks
>



From wilman at hkabc.net  Sat Jan 16 00:42:15 1999
From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:42:15 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
Message-ID: <mailman.32197.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



----------
> From: Jason Weir <jweir at worldnet.att.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
> Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 11:38 AM
> 
> 
> 
> WILMAN wrote:
> > > I've looked at several of them but frankly I'm not sure what
> > > I should be looking for in a programmable EFI system. The
> > > Accell DFI system seems popular and so do the Haltech
> > > products. I must have looked at a dozen Mfr.'s. I was leaning
> > > toward the Holley system but after receiving several messages
> > > on the problems and deficiencies they have I changed my mind.
> > > Which system(s) is/are considered the best?
> > >
> > > Charles
> > >
> > I am using GEMS EM20. It is very good.
> > They are at http://www.gems.co.uk
> >
> 
> About how much did the EM20 cost if you don't mind me asking?  
> 
> Jason


I think it is about 700 sterling.


From wilman at hkabc.net  Sat Jan 16 00:49:49 1999
From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:49:49 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
Message-ID: <mailman.32198.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



----------
> From: Charles  Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
> Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 10:33 PM
> 
> >>I am using GEMS EM20. It is very good. They are at 
> http://www.gems.co.uk   <<
> 
> 
> Can you tell me a little about your application?
>

I am running a Peugeot 405 Mi16 with the Gems ecu. The engine is 1900 c.c.,
4 cylinder and 16v.
It has sequential injection with 4 x 16 ohm injectors, close loop lambda
control, idle speed control valve dependent on coolant temperature and
engine revs also with compensation with A/C and P/S. It has a Bosch
Motronic type flywheel with speed sensor and a cam phase sensor. What
exactly do you want to know?









 
> I noticed that Haltech has a replacement for some of the 
> Delco puters. They call it the "E6GM". I printed out the 
> info sheet from the Haltech page, but they didn't have any 
> specs, or a list of ECU's that it could replace. Does anyone 
> have any info on this option?
> 
> Charles


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 16 01:13:57 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:13:57 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32199.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I did a little reading through the archives and came across a post
>which mentioned that one drawback to the E6GM was that the RPM
>increments were 1000RPM as opposed to 500RPM in another system.
>
>Can someone explain the difference in operation and the effect on
>programming as well as driveablity?
>
>TIA,
>
>Charles Brooks

Your fuel and timing maps are basically a matrix of (engine) load vs.
speed, with fuel/advance values at each point on the chart. Either MAF or
MAP is used as the load indicator, RPM as the speed indicator. Having
mapped points every 500 RPM (with respect to speed) results in twice as
many points on each chart as having them every 1000 RPM would. This leads
to more accurate tuning. On the best systems, RPM increments and load
increments are user selectable, and do not necessarily have to be evenly
spaced (for instance, you could choose to lay your RPM increments out so
that each higher one was an equal percentage greater than the one below!!)

Take a look at the web sites for MoTeC and/or Autronics if you want to get
a good idea of what programming options are available on higher end units.

Also, there was a thread a few weeks ago talking about the effect of the
minimum increment in injector pulse width of which a given ecu is capable
of incrementing, and the effect of that factor on a tuner's ability to get
an engine to idle in a civilized manner--particularly if using a big cam
and/or injectors. IMHO, a unit with a minimum pw increment of more than 16
us --preferably 8 or 10 us (us, not ms) is not worth a #$@% for a
STREETABLE hypo application. Check this out carefully before you buy!!

Regards, Greg




From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sat Jan 16 01:22:50 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:22:50 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32200.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Is the E6GM capable of 500 RPM resolution? It's hard to tell
from the Haltech page, and the post in the archives didn't
elaborate. If so then I don't see any problem for my
application. Hhmm, seems like I'm trying to talk myself into
the Haltech unit, A 500 dollar difference is a persuasive
argument  :)

Charles Brooks



Bruce Plecan wrote:
>  
> 1,000 rpm for a 12,000 rpm capacity calibration, 500 rpm resolution for a
> 6,000 rpm calibation.  Meaning no correction over 6,000 rpm not
> that the ecm wouldn't work at higher speeds.
> Bruce


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sat Jan 16 01:46:25 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:46:25 -0500
Subject: Programmable ECU's (Was GM TPI tips for a newbie)
Message-ID: <mailman.32201.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

That about covers it :)

I'm just trying to find out what types of systems people are using.
And if they are using them in applications close to mine.

Charles Brooks



WILMAN wrote:
 
> I am running a Peugeot 405 Mi16 with the Gems ecu. The engine is 1900 c.c.,
> 4 cylinder and 16v.
> It has sequential injection with 4 x 16 ohm injectors, close loop lambda
> control, idle speed control valve dependent on coolant temperature and
> engine revs also with compensation with A/C and P/S. It has a Bosch
> Motronic type flywheel with speed sensor and a cam phase sensor. What
> exactly do you want to know?


From thergen at svn.net  Sat Jan 16 01:51:39 1999
From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:51:39 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32202.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce,

Are you thinking of a string of one-shots and using a varying
voltage on
the control pins to vary the output pulse width?  If you're already going
to be using op-amps to scale the output of the sensors, you could probably
add/subtract the outputs of multiple op-amps together through resistors
and run that into the control voltage pin of a smaller number of 555s.

Since there's not 'learning' ability, the circuit might be very
engine/sensor specific.  Trying to apply it to an engine with a slightly
different offset in the TPS or MAP sensors compared to the original
engine/sensor combo it was tuned to might not work very well (without
retuning that is). The same could probably be said for other fi
controllers without feedback. 

Use capacitors with good temperature coefficients.  X7R caps would be
preferable to Z5U caps.

Good Luck! (meant in an encouraging way)
Tom

On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> I've been thinking about a simple EFI using a string of 555s.
> Just like the "Normal" math would be, ie first 555, base pulse,
> second Coolant temp correction, third MAP, and so on for like
> 6+ 555 all in series.  Trouble is this gets me, an addition of
> correction factors, instead of multipling them, is this a major
> problem?.  I realize this ain't gonna be as good as a oem,
> ecm, but would like to get fairly close.
>   I'm looking to keep this as much as an entry level thing, meaning
> nothing but 555s, op-amps, and a final drive.  
>   On a related note, does anyone know if the gm ecms use a 
> standard "pinout" for the resistors in the netres?.  Is the netres
> only for full limp home mode, meaning it goes to fixed timing?.
> Any thoughts appreciated.
> Cheers
> Bruce  
> 



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sat Jan 16 02:34:32 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:34:32 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32203.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hope you don't mind me doing a little psuedo research and asking
what the result of the thread was. Which ECU's had the finest
PW control?

Charles Brooks



Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> Also, there was a thread a few weeks ago talking about the effect of the
> minimum increment in injector pulse width of which a given ecu is capable
> of incrementing, and the effect of that factor on a tuner's ability to get
> an engine to idle in a civilized manner--particularly if using a big cam
> and/or injectors. IMHO, a unit with a minimum pw increment of more than 16
> us --preferably 8 or 10 us (us, not ms) is not worth a #$@% for a
> STREETABLE hypo application. Check this out carefully before you buy!!


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 02:47:11 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:47:11 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32204.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Haltech E6GM


>Is the E6GM capable of 500 RPM resolution? It's hard to tell
>from the Haltech page, and the post in the archives didn't
>elaborate. If so then I don't see any problem for my
>application. Hhmm, seems like I'm trying to talk myself into
>the Haltech unit, A 500 dollar difference is a persuasive
>argument  :)

If you find the demo software go - or + on the fuel timing table,
and you should see the 500 rpm steps off of Alt F tables it is
1000 rpm steps.  Sounds confusing til ya read/see the manual.
Bruce,  and does show very fine resolution in idle fuel as GH
mentions.
>
>Charles Brooks
>
>
>
>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>>
>> 1,000 rpm for a 12,000 rpm capacity calibration, 500 rpm resolution for a
>> 6,000 rpm calibation.  Meaning no correction over 6,000 rpm not
>> that the ecm wouldn't work at higher speeds.
>> Bruce
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 16 03:33:02 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:33:02 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32205.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Is the E6GM capable of 500 RPM resolution? It's hard to tell
>from the Haltech page, and the post in the archives didn't
>elaborate. If so then I don't see any problem for my
>application. Hhmm, seems like I'm trying to talk myself into
>the Haltech unit, A 500 dollar difference is a persuasive
>argument  :)
>
>Charles Brooks

Watch it--check the specs closely-- I think maybe the Haltech unit will
only change injector pw 64 us at a time. Might be part of the old "you get
what you pay for" syndrome!

Greg
>
>
>
>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>>
>> 1,000 rpm for a 12,000 rpm capacity calibration, 500 rpm resolution for a
>> 6,000 rpm calibation.  Meaning no correction over 6,000 rpm not
>> that the ecm wouldn't work at higher speeds.
>> Bruce




From quest100 at gte.net  Sat Jan 16 03:41:33 1999
From: quest100 at gte.net (Fran and Bud)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:41:33 -0500
Subject: Low Pressure Transducers
Message-ID: <mailman.32206.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Joel,
Has anyone answered your post about low pressure transducers?

I want to come up with a tool that will let me run tiny tubing to various
points on and in my truck, to locate and measure areas of hi and lo 
aerodynamic pressure.  Actual values are not too important - just pressure
at one location relative to another location.  

Would like to hear if you receive any leads.

Bud Todd
quest100 at gte.net


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 04:09:46 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:09:46 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32207.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Haltech E6GM


>>Is the E6GM capable of 500 RPM resolution? It's hard to tell
>>from the Haltech page, and the post in the archives didn't
>>elaborate. If so then I don't see any problem for my
>>application. Hhmm, seems like I'm trying to talk myself into
>>the Haltech unit, A 500 dollar difference is a persuasive
>>argument  :)
>>Charles Brooks
>Watch it--check the specs closely-- I think maybe the Haltech unit will
>only change injector pw 64 us at a time. Might be part of the old "you get
what you pay for" syndrome!
>Greg

The software reads one axis as milliseconds, and the increments
are (as an example)   4.032, 4.048, 4.064, 4.080, and 4.096.
Looks to be .000016, to me (course Doc always corrects me twice
when I start writing things with many zeroes, but he's out tonite).
Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>>>
>>> 1,000 rpm for a 12,000 rpm capacity calibration, 500 rpm resolution for
a
>>> 6,000 rpm calibation.  Meaning no correction over 6,000 rpm not
>>> that the ecm wouldn't work at higher speeds.
>>> Bruce
>
>



From gem at alphalink.com.au  Sat Jan 16 04:14:31 1999
From: gem at alphalink.com.au (paul)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:14:31 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32208.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi There,
             Maybe I can Help.I own a Haltech E6GM and an Autronic SMC
unit.
The E6GM has 22 fuel ranges every 500rpm up to 10500rpm or 17 fuel ranges 
every 1000rpm up to 16000rpm and 32 load points per range.
 These are the same for spark and fuel which gives a very precise
adjustment.
this is also interpolated to work out smaller increments.
This system is definately much more user friendly than the Autronic system.
Another great feature is the data logging but the laptop must be plugged in
for recording the info.I hope this info has been useful.
P.S    my E6GM ecm is for sale but I live in Australia so someone else out
there may be interested.
PAUL.
----------
> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Haltech E6GM
> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 12:22 PM
> 
> Is the E6GM capable of 500 RPM resolution? It's hard to tell
> from the Haltech page, and the post in the archives didn't
> elaborate. If so then I don't see any problem for my
> application. Hhmm, seems like I'm trying to talk myself into
> the Haltech unit, A 500 dollar difference is a persuasive
> argument  :)
> 
> Charles Brooks
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce Plecan wrote:
> >  
> > 1,000 rpm for a 12,000 rpm capacity calibration, 500 rpm resolution for
a
> > 6,000 rpm calibation.  Meaning no correction over 6,000 rpm not
> > that the ecm wouldn't work at higher speeds.
> > Bruce


From gem at alphalink.com.au  Sat Jan 16 04:23:54 1999
From: gem at alphalink.com.au (paul)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:23:54 -0500
Subject: Uploaded BIN to FTP
Message-ID: <mailman.32209.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ross,
          I tried to download the bin file to have a look but it came up
with a url fault .....any ideas on how to download it????????
PAUL.

----------
> From: Ross Myers <ponty at axis.jeack.com.au>
> To: EFI List <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Subject: Uploaded BIN to FTP
> Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:20 PM
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> For those who are interested I've uploaded a BIN to the DIY_FTP /incoming
> dir.
> The file is called VS_BSTK1451 (V6).BIN
> 
> It's from a 95/96 model VS Holden Commodore.
> PCM is a #16210672, 3.8L V6, 4Spd Electronic Auto, Memcal uses 27010 (32
> pin) ROM.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ross Myers


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan 16 04:37:35 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:37:35 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32210.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

thergen at svn.net wrote:
> 
> Bruce,
> 
> Are you thinking of a string of one-shots and using a varying
> voltage on
> the control pins to vary the output pulse width?  If you're already going
> to be using op-amps to scale the output of the sensors, you could probably
> add/subtract the outputs of multiple op-amps together through resistors
> and run that into the control voltage pin of a smaller number of 555s.
> 
question of clarification:
what is the "control voltage" pin? My understanding of the 555 operation
is the cap and resistance (cap between threshold {connected to discharge
for monostable}and ground - resistor from B+ to threshold) were an RC
"tank" circuit. The resistor controls the time required for the cap to
reach 2/3 of B+ voltage. A variable voltage will not do this properly.

If the control voltage on the threshold pin drops below 2/3 supply
voltage, you do not get a trigger.

How about running the 555 with a "floating ground" from 12 volts, and
the "threshold" or control voltage anchored from ground? As long as the
control voltage cannot exceed the supply voltage  it should work. By
varying the "floating ground" with a variable negative voltage regulator
you would have one input, and varying the threshold voltage source
(through a resistor) using something like a MAP sensor or TPS you would
have a second input. Varying the charge current control resistor would
give a third input.

Vary the source voltage, or "floating ground point" according to
temperature, charge voltage according to MAP or TPS, and charge current
resistor for "mixture control" fine tuning ( thinking of aircraft apps
here) and it might be doable? Mabee use an O2 sensor to feedback control
this fine adjustment for automotive use?

Let's hear the feedback.


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Sat Jan 16 04:45:21 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:45:21 -0500
Subject: Ignition coil inductance?
Message-ID: <mailman.32211.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Most of the coils that I have seen quoted range in the 10 - 30 Henry
range.



On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:31:04 -0800 Don Holtz <daholtz at axionet.com>
writes:
>Hello!
>
>I am working on a device for testing ECM functionality.  When 
>completed it
>will be able to measure a variety of ECM parameters like injector 
>duty, etc.
>
>Can anyone guess at what a good "typical" primary-side ignition coil
>inductance value might be?  A range of value would be good.
>
>I need to know this because my tester is essentialy simulating engine
>function while taking measurements.  So, I also need to simulate the
>ignition circuitry too.
>
>I hope this makes some sense.
>
>Cheers,
>Don
>
>
>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 04:50:45 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 23:50:45 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32212.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: thergen at svn.net <thergen at svn.net>
To: DIY_EFI <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: 555 EFI


>Bruce,
>
>Are you thinking of a string of one-shots and using a varying
>voltage on
>the control pins to vary the output pulse width? 

Exactly

 If you're already going
>to be using op-amps to scale the output of the sensors, you could probably
>add/subtract the outputs of multiple op-amps together through resistors
>and run that into the control voltage pin of a smaller number of 555s.

Well this is for kinda 332 for Dummies.  Just a see you can do it
operation.  Skill level requarded, knowing which end of soldering iron
gets hot.
>
>Since there's not 'learning' ability, the circuit might be very
>engine/sensor specific.  Trying to apply it to an engine with a slightly
>different offset in the TPS or MAP sensors compared to the original
>engine/sensor combo it was tuned to might not work very well (without
>retuning that is). The same could probably be said for other fi
>controllers without feedback. 

In this case, that is just fine, since it's meant to be a grow your own.
>
>Use capacitors with good temperature coefficients.  X7R caps would be
>preferable to Z5U caps.

Geez I almost made it all day with just one 3x5 card of notes.
Dang, grin 
Thanks
Bruce
>
>Good Luck! (meant in an encouraging way)
>Tom
>
>On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:
>
>> I've been thinking about a simple EFI using a string of 555s.
>> Just like the "Normal" math would be, ie first 555, base pulse,
>> second Coolant temp correction, third MAP, and so on for like
>> 6+ 555 all in series.  Trouble is this gets me, an addition of
>> correction factors, instead of multipling them, is this a major
>> problem?.  I realize this ain't gonna be as good as a oem,
>> ecm, but would like to get fairly close.
>>   I'm looking to keep this as much as an entry level thing, meaning
>> nothing but 555s, op-amps, and a final drive.  
>>   On a related note, does anyone know if the gm ecms use a 
>> standard "pinout" for the resistors in the netres?.  Is the netres
>> only for full limp home mode, meaning it goes to fixed timing?.
>> Any thoughts appreciated.
>> Cheers
>> Bruce  
>> 
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 05:00:17 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:00:17 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32213.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence L.Snyder <clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: 555 EFI


>thergen at svn.net wrote:
>>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Are you thinking of a string of one-shots and using a varying
>> voltage on
>> the control pins to vary the output pulse width?  If you're already going
>> to be using op-amps to scale the output of the sensors, you could
probably
>> add/subtract the outputs of multiple op-amps together through resistors
>> and run that into the control voltage pin of a smaller number of 555s.
>>
>question of clarification:
>what is the "control voltage" pin? My understanding of the 555 operation
>is the cap and resistance (cap between threshold {connected to discharge
>for monostable}and ground - resistor from B+ to threshold) were an RC
>"tank" circuit. The resistor controls the time required for the cap to
>reach 2/3 of B+ voltage.

Pin 5 sets B+ as you discribe it.
Bruce

 A variable voltage will not do this properly.
>
>If the control voltage on the threshold pin drops below 2/3 supply
>voltage, you do not get a trigger.
>
>How about running the 555 with a "floating ground" from 12 volts, and
>the "threshold" or control voltage anchored from ground? As long as the
>control voltage cannot exceed the supply voltage  it should work. By
>varying the "floating ground" with a variable negative voltage regulator
>you would have one input, and varying the threshold voltage source
>(through a resistor) using something like a MAP sensor or TPS you would
>have a second input. Varying the charge current control resistor would
>give a third input.
>
>Vary the source voltage, or "floating ground point" according to
>temperature, charge voltage according to MAP or TPS, and charge current
>resistor for "mixture control" fine tuning ( thinking of aircraft apps
>here) and it might be doable? Mabee use an O2 sensor to feedback control
>this fine adjustment for automotive use?
>
>Let's hear the feedback.
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 16 05:15:51 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:15:51 -0500
Subject: Low Pressure Transducers
Message-ID: <mailman.32214.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Joel,
>Has anyone answered your post about low pressure transducers?
>
>I want to come up with a tool that will let me run tiny tubing to various
>points on and in my truck, to locate and measure areas of hi and lo
>aerodynamic pressure.  Actual values are not too important - just pressure
>at one location relative to another location.
>
>Would like to hear if you receive any leads.

Mamac Systems--Minneapolis-(800) 843-5116 Model PR-274 or PR-275 have full
scale ranges down to as low as  0--0.1" H2O for about $150. Sur they can be
had in 24vdc supply, dunno about 12vdc tho.

Ashcroft also goes down to about this range, choice of 0.25%, 0.5%, or 1%
accuracy, depending on $$$, but reasonably competitive with Mamac.

Dwyer is a third name.

Regards, Greg
>
>Bud Todd
>quest100 at gte.net




From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan 16 05:22:00 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:22:00 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32215.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clarence L.Snyder <clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 11:57 PM
> Subject: Re: 555 EFI
> 
> >thergen at svn.net wrote:
> >>
> >> Bruce,
> >>
> >> Are you thinking of a string of one-shots and using a varying
> >> voltage on
> >> the control pins to vary the output pulse width?  If you're already going
> >> to be using op-amps to scale the output of the sensors, you could
> probably
> >> add/subtract the outputs of multiple op-amps together through resistors
> >> and run that into the control voltage pin of a smaller number of 555s.
> >>
> >question of clarification:
> >what is the "control voltage" pin? My understanding of the 555 operation
> >is the cap and resistance (cap between threshold {connected to discharge
> >for monostable}and ground - resistor from B+ to threshold) were an RC
> >"tank" circuit. The resistor controls the time required for the cap to
> >reach 2/3 of B+ voltage.
> 
> Pin 5 sets B+ as you discribe it.
> Bruce
> 
>
What do I connect to pin 5, through what, to control this? On the info I
have, this is the BYPASS pin and is tied to ground through a small cap
to despike. How do I use it to control pulse width? What degree of
adjustment is possible from this pin?

Another question -
What percentage pulse width change would be required from the MAP or TPS
input? What percentage from  engine temperature, assuming these were the
only inputs you were going to use other than the trigger (tach sync)?


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan 16 05:47:15 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:47:15 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32216.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence L.Snyder wrote:
> 
> Bruce Plecan wrote:
> >
> >
> > Pin 5 sets B+ as you discribe it.
> > Bruce
> >
> >
> What do I connect to pin 5, through what, to control this? On the info I
> have, this is the BYPASS pin and is tied to ground through a small cap
> to despike. How do I use it to control pulse width? What degree of
> adjustment is possible from this pin?
> 
> Another question -
> What percentage pulse width change would be required from the MAP or TPS
> input? What percentage from  engine temperature, assuming these were the
> only inputs you were going to use other than the trigger (tach sync)?

The only other thing I have seen this pin used for is a very simple FM
transmitter / signal generator where an audio signal is put onto an RF
signal for tracing purposes. - FM radio then picks up the signal in an
audible form. This is when used as astable.


From rwhughe at hal-pc.org  Sat Jan 16 05:52:16 1999
From: rwhughe at hal-pc.org (Robert W. Hughes)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:52:16 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32217.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> I've been thinking about a simple EFI using a string of 555s.
> Just like the "Normal" math would be, ie first 555, base pulse,
> second Coolant temp correction, third MAP, and so on for like
> 6+ 555 all in series.  Trouble is this gets me, an addition of
> correction factors, instead of multipling them, is this a major
> problem?.  I realize this ain't gonna be as good as a oem,
> ecm, but would like to get fairly close.

Another approach - the switching point (pulse width) on the 555 is
controlled by the voltage across the timing capacitor. When the voltage
rises to a certain percentage of the supply votage, the 555 switches. If
the capacitor value is constant and the resistor value is constant, the
only thing controlling this timing is the voltage applied to the
resistor. Obviously, this voltage must be high enough to trigger the 555
but it can be noticeably higher than the supply voltage. So, build an
op-amp circuit to add together the MAP voltage, the coolant temp
correction, perhaps even a function of engine speed vol eff curve) and
produce an output voltage of 5 to n volts. Run the 555 on 5 volts and
apply this voltage to the timing resistor. The timing resistor and
capacitor would be chosen for a pulse width slightly shorter than that
required for idle at 5 volts and the high voltage (n) would then be
chosen to give the maximum pulse width desired. You would probably need
a limiting circuit across the cap (like a 5v zener) to protect the 555
from the high voltage possible at high pulse widths and low speeds. The
major problem here is dynamic range, the wider the ratio of min to max
pulse width, the higher the voltage the op-amp circuit must produce.
-- 
Robert W. Hughes (Bob)
BackYard Engineering
Houston, Texas
rwhughe at hal-pc.org


From yorker at deltanet.com  Sat Jan 16 06:37:37 1999
From: yorker at deltanet.com (Robert E. Yorke)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:37:37 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32218.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Paul:

If you found it to be so user friendly, why do you want to sell it?  At any
rate, what is your asking price?


At 03:10 PM 1/16/1999 +1100, you wrote:
>Hi There,
>             Maybe I can Help.I own a Haltech E6GM and an Autronic SMC
>unit.
>The E6GM has 22 fuel ranges every 500rpm up to 10500rpm or 17 fuel ranges 
>every 1000rpm up to 16000rpm and 32 load points per range.
> These are the same for spark and fuel which gives a very precise
>adjustment.
>this is also interpolated to work out smaller increments.
>This system is definately much more user friendly than the Autronic system.
>Another great feature is the data logging but the laptop must be plugged in
>for recording the info.I hope this info has been useful.
>P.S    my E6GM ecm is for sale but I live in Australia so someone else out
>there may be interested.
>PAUL.
>----------
>> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> Subject: Re: Haltech E6GM
>> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 12:22 PM
>> 
>> Is the E6GM capable of 500 RPM resolution? It's hard to tell
>> from the Haltech page, and the post in the archives didn't
>> elaborate. If so then I don't see any problem for my
>> application. Hhmm, seems like I'm trying to talk myself into
>> the Haltech unit, A 500 dollar difference is a persuasive
>> argument  :)
>> 
>> Charles Brooks
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Bruce Plecan wrote:
>> >  
>> > 1,000 rpm for a 12,000 rpm capacity calibration, 500 rpm resolution for
>a
>> > 6,000 rpm calibation.  Meaning no correction over 6,000 rpm not
>> > that the ecm wouldn't work at higher speeds.
>> > Bruce




From KD6JDJ at aol.com  Sat Jan 16 06:43:13 1999
From: KD6JDJ at aol.com (KD6JDJ at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:43:13 -0500
Subject: Low Pressure Transducers
Message-ID: <mailman.32219.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  Please ignore this post if it is way off base , I just came across it.and
thought that I might suggest the use of a transparent tube with colored water
in it so that you can see how the level of the water varies (monitored by eye
) , as the pressure at one open end varies , with respect the other open end.
  The system works. But it is likely not what you are seeking. It is sure less
$$ than any other system .

     Jerry


From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Jan 16 07:01:22 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:01:22 -0500
Subject: Uploaded BIN to FTP
Message-ID: <mailman.32220.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

It's right here.  
ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/VS_BSTK1451%20%28V6%29.BIN
I had to right click on it in netscape, but it downloaded.

Shannen


diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Ross,
>           I tried to download the bin file to have a look but it came up
> with a url fault .....any ideas on how to download it????????
> PAUL.
> 
> ----------
> > From: Ross Myers <ponty at axis.jeack.com.au>
> > To: EFI List <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> > Subject: Uploaded BIN to FTP
> > Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:20 PM
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > For those who are interested I've uploaded a BIN to the DIY_FTP /incoming
> > dir.
> > The file is called VS_BSTK1451 (V6).BIN
> >
> > It's from a 95/96 model VS Holden Commodore.
> > PCM is a #16210672, 3.8L V6, 4Spd Electronic Auto, Memcal uses 27010 (32
> > pin) ROM.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Ross Myers



From thergen at svn.net  Sat Jan 16 07:55:15 1999
From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:55:15 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32221.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Picture an op-amp with the non-iverting input connected to pin 6 and the
inverting input connected to pin 5.  Pin 5 is also connected to a resistor
divider network that pulls it to 2/3 Vcc.  There is probably a symbolic
view on one of the semiconductor manufacturers sites.  I'm looking at the
cover of two different books that show this configuration. 

The 2/3 reference point can be yanked around to where you want by using
pin 5.  It can also affect the 1/3 reference for pin 2.

The pin numbers above assume the 8 pin package.

If you can't find an online reference, or it's still not clear, I could
probably try some ascii art to show the configuration.

Tom


On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Clarence L.Snyder wrote:

> Bruce Plecan wrote:
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Clarence L.Snyder <clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net>
> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> > Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 11:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: 555 EFI
> > 
> > >thergen at svn.net wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Bruce,
> > >>
> > >> Are you thinking of a string of one-shots and using a varying
> > >> voltage on
> > >> the control pins to vary the output pulse width?  If you're already going
> > >> to be using op-amps to scale the output of the sensors, you could
> > probably
> > >> add/subtract the outputs of multiple op-amps together through resistors
> > >> and run that into the control voltage pin of a smaller number of 555s.
> > >>
> > >question of clarification:
> > >what is the "control voltage" pin? My understanding of the 555 operation
> > >is the cap and resistance (cap between threshold {connected to discharge
> > >for monostable}and ground - resistor from B+ to threshold) were an RC
> > >"tank" circuit. The resistor controls the time required for the cap to
> > >reach 2/3 of B+ voltage.
> > 
> > Pin 5 sets B+ as you discribe it.
> > Bruce
> > 
> >
> What do I connect to pin 5, through what, to control this? On the info I
> have, this is the BYPASS pin and is tied to ground through a small cap
> to despike. How do I use it to control pulse width? What degree of
> adjustment is possible from this pin?
> 
> Another question -
> What percentage pulse width change would be required from the MAP or TPS
> input? What percentage from  engine temperature, assuming these were the
> only inputs you were going to use other than the trigger (tach sync)?
> 



From gem at alphalink.com.au  Sat Jan 16 11:11:41 1999
From: gem at alphalink.com.au (paul)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 06:11:41 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32222.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi All,
         The reason I am selling the haltech e6gm is that I bought another
race car ,from a guy called Doug robson whos name appears in the archive
files.
Doug if you read this contact me.......
My wife won't let me keep two race cars so I am selling bits and pieces and
or the whole car. the E6gm price is about AUS$1000 .A loom and sensors
could be supplied at a price.p.s only used on Sundays.
PAUL

----------
> From: Robert E. Yorke <yorker at deltanet.com>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Haltech E6GM
> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 5:31 PM
> 
> Paul:
> 
> If you found it to be so user friendly, why do you want to sell it?  At
any
> rate, what is your asking price?
> 
> 
> At 03:10 PM 1/16/1999 +1100, you wrote:
> >Hi There,
> >             Maybe I can Help.I own a Haltech E6GM and an Autronic SMC
> >unit.
> >The E6GM has 22 fuel ranges every 500rpm up to 10500rpm or 17 fuel
ranges 
> >every 1000rpm up to 16000rpm and 32 load points per range.
> > These are the same for spark and fuel which gives a very precise
> >adjustment.
> >this is also interpolated to work out smaller increments.
> >This system is definately much more user friendly than the Autronic
system.
> >Another great feature is the data logging but the laptop must be plugged
in
> >for recording the info.I hope this info has been useful.
> >P.S    my E6GM ecm is for sale but I live in Australia so someone else
out
> >there may be interested.
> >PAUL.
> >----------
> >> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> >> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >> Subject: Re: Haltech E6GM
> >> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 12:22 PM
> >> 
> >> Is the E6GM capable of 500 RPM resolution? It's hard to tell
> >> from the Haltech page, and the post in the archives didn't
> >> elaborate. If so then I don't see any problem for my
> >> application. Hhmm, seems like I'm trying to talk myself into
> >> the Haltech unit, A 500 dollar difference is a persuasive
> >> argument  :)
> >> 
> >> Charles Brooks
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Bruce Plecan wrote:
> >> >  
> >> > 1,000 rpm for a 12,000 rpm capacity calibration, 500 rpm resolution
for
> >a
> >> > 6,000 rpm calibation.  Meaning no correction over 6,000 rpm not
> >> > that the ecm wouldn't work at higher speeds.
> >> > Bruce
> 


From btisdale at cybersol.com  Sat Jan 16 14:02:50 1999
From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:02:50 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....
Message-ID: <mailman.32223.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Recent discussion on TCC lockups got me thinking (always a dangerous thing....).

Having installed the TCC lock switch, I've got a couple of questions for the performance gurus:

What advantage or disadvantage, during daily driving, to having the switch on or off?  Things just feel more 'solid' to me w/ the TCC lock on.

It makes sense to me that having the converter locked during Banzii runs will net a lower ET due to less loss thru the driveline - KB claims .2-.25 sec better.

BUT -

Shifts now occur @ about 500 rpm *less* engine speed (no slippage now).  W/O the TCC locked, my Syclone would shift @ (WOT) about 4300 rpm - just about at the HP peak - this is not ideal.  Ideally, we'd like to upshift on the 'far' side of the HP curve, to an approximately equal HP point on the rising side of the curve.  As it stands w/ the TCC locked, shifts occur @ *less* than the HP peak of the engine.  This seems to be in need of correcting - seems you'd like to raise the shift points to about 5000 RPM, past the HP peak, to keep the engine on the power curve better.

Would raising the shift points, at least to compensate for the now 'slipless' TC, be of benefit?  Seems there should be an additional .2 sec or so there also (?).

Right?  Wrong?  All wet??  Comments?

Thanks - Barry


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 14:39:15 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:39:15 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32224.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence L.Snyder <clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: 555 EFI


snip
>>
>What do I connect to pin 5, through what, to control this?

To just play with it a simple voltage divider of a pot and some resistors.

 On the info I
>have, this is the BYPASS pin and is tied to ground through a small cap
>to despike. How do I use it to control pulse width? What degree of
>adjustment is possible from this pin?

If you went to both extremes <2/3v, and v then 0-100%
>
>Another question -
>What percentage pulse width change would be required from the >MAP or TPS
input? What percentage from  engine temperature, >assuming these were the
only inputs you were going to use other >than the trigger (tach sync)?

The percentages will vary depending on application.  ie, by example,
a 460 CID, FE Ford is alot more cold blooded then a 1.6L 4 cylinder,
16 valve DOHC..

If you hunt around for various software demos, for some of the aftermarket
ecms you could read those tables, for a general idea.
When I get things a bite closer to bench running it, I'll be bench
running a oem calibration that is similiar to what my target engine
is, and then comparing that data.
Bruce
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 14:40:46 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:40:46 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32225.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence L.Snyder <clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: 555 EFI


snip

Try to find some of Forrest Mims III books, booklets are available from
Radio Shack
Bruce

>> >
>> What do I connect to pin 5, through what, to control this? On the info I
>> have, this is the BYPASS pin and is tied to ground through a small cap
>> to despike. How do I use it to control pulse width? What degree of
>> adjustment is possible from this pin?
>> 
>> Another question -
>> What percentage pulse width change would be required from the MAP or TPS
>> input? What percentage from  engine temperature, assuming these were the
>> only inputs you were going to use other than the trigger (tach sync)?
>
>The only other thing I have seen this pin used for is a very simple FM
>transmitter / signal generator where an audio signal is put onto an RF
>signal for tracing purposes. - FM radio then picks up the signal in an
>audible form. This is when used as astable.
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 14:58:06 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:58:06 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....
Message-ID: <mailman.32226.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com>
To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 9:15 AM
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....

Is the TCC your using designed for WOT use?...
There are lots of considerations, ie, tranny life, converter life,
reliability,
firing impulses, and power transfer.
  A $3 switch is cheap, but the tranny overhaul it may cost, by using it
expensive if the converter ain't designed for that use.
  I think GH's mention about switching it off during a gear change has
merit in high weight drivetrains like yours (4WD)..
  Remember some comments here are about specific cars, and not
universal laws.
    FIRST TRUE LAW OF TUNING, Assume nothing, and doument
everything.  Ya wanna play with shift points, first get a G-Tech, and
Diacom+, to find out if your going in the right direction.  ie raising shift
the shift point if your already out of fuel would not make sense.
  Seat of the pants tuning, is for the, wannabe's
   SECOND TRUE LAW RULE OF TUNING, speed costs money,
how fast can you afford to go?.
Using some common sense reduces this cost.
Cheers
Bruce
Cheers
Bruce


>Recent discussion on TCC lockups got me thinking (always a dangerous
thing....).
>
>Having installed the TCC lock switch, I've got a couple of questions for
the performance gurus:
>
>What advantage or disadvantage, during daily driving, to having the switch
on or off?  Things just feel more 'solid' to me w/ the TCC lock on.
>
>It makes sense to me that having the converter locked during Banzii runs
will net a lower ET due to less loss thru the driveline - KB claims .2-.25
sec better.
>
>BUT -
>
>Shifts now occur @ about 500 rpm *less* engine speed (no slippage now).
W/O the TCC locked, my Syclone would shift @ (WOT) about 4300 rpm - just
about at the HP peak - this is not ideal.  Ideally, we'd like to upshift on
the 'far' side of the HP curve, to an approximately equal HP point on the
rising side of the curve.  As it stands w/ the TCC locked, shifts occur @
*less* than the HP peak of the engine.  This seems to be in need of
correcting - seems you'd like to raise the shift points to about 5000 RPM,
past the HP peak, to keep the engine on the power curve better.
>
>Would raising the shift points, at least to compensate for the now
'slipless' TC, be of benefit?  Seems there should be an additional .2 sec or
so there also (?).
>
>Right?  Wrong?  All wet??  Comments?
>
>Thanks - Barry
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 15:09:14 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:09:14 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32227.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hmm, would someone who has some EE under their belt e-mail
me or respond to:

How would someone convert a 0-5v signal to a 3.333-5v signal
using a 324?.  Or is this the "killer".
Cheers
Bruce



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 15:15:56 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:15:56 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32228.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: thergen at svn.net <thergen at svn.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: 555 EFI

I just reread this and think maybe I got more.
Well, I'm gonna flood the list with dumb stuff today.
Anyway use like a 2M, and 1M resistor for the bias v to pin 5, and then
tie a 324 output to that to move it up?.
How would say a TPS 0-5 be feed to the 324?.
Cheers
Bruce

>Picture an op-amp with the non-iverting input connected to pin 6 and the
>inverting input connected to pin 5.  Pin 5 is also connected to a resistor
>divider network that pulls it to 2/3 Vcc.  There is probably a symbolic
>view on one of the semiconductor manufacturers sites.  I'm looking at the
>cover of two different books that show this configuration.
>
>The 2/3 reference point can be yanked around to where you want by using
>pin 5.  It can also affect the 1/3 reference for pin 2.
>
>The pin numbers above assume the 8 pin package.
>
>If you can't find an online reference, or it's still not clear, I could
>probably try some ascii art to show the configuration.
>
>Tom
>
>
>On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Clarence L.Snyder wrote:
>
>> Bruce Plecan wrote:
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Clarence L.Snyder <clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net>
>> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
<diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>> > Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 11:57 PM
>> > Subject: Re: 555 EFI
>> >
>> > >thergen at svn.net wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Bruce,
>> > >>
>> > >> Are you thinking of a string of one-shots and using a varying
>> > >> voltage on
>> > >> the control pins to vary the output pulse width?  If you're already
going
>> > >> to be using op-amps to scale the output of the sensors, you could
>> > probably
>> > >> add/subtract the outputs of multiple op-amps together through
resistors
>> > >> and run that into the control voltage pin of a smaller number of
555s.
>> > >>
>> > >question of clarification:
>> > >what is the "control voltage" pin? My understanding of the 555
operation
>> > >is the cap and resistance (cap between threshold {connected to
discharge
>> > >for monostable}and ground - resistor from B+ to threshold) were an RC
>> > >"tank" circuit. The resistor controls the time required for the cap to
>> > >reach 2/3 of B+ voltage.
>> >
>> > Pin 5 sets B+ as you discribe it.
>> > Bruce
>> >
>> >
>> What do I connect to pin 5, through what, to control this? On the info I
>> have, this is the BYPASS pin and is tied to ground through a small cap
>> to despike. How do I use it to control pulse width? What degree of
>> adjustment is possible from this pin?
>>
>> Another question -
>> What percentage pulse width change would be required from the MAP or TPS
>> input? What percentage from  engine temperature, assuming these were the
>> only inputs you were going to use other than the trigger (tach sync)?
>>
>



From e.schumacher at worldnet.att.net  Sat Jan 16 16:24:59 1999
From: e.schumacher at worldnet.att.net (Eric Schumacher)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:24:59 -0500
Subject: Low Pressure Transducers
Message-ID: <mailman.32229.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Joel
There is a panel "meter'' available called a MAGNA-HELIC used to monitor
the static pressure in clean rooms that does just this. New they would be
several hundred dollars, they are shown in the McMaster Caar catalog, but
they show up in Southern CA swapmeets for around $10.
Otherwise a manometer will do the job for ultra cheap.
Lotsa Luck Eric
85 GTI with VR6 Power


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Sat Jan 16 17:14:12 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:14:12 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.32230.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Roger Heflin wrote:

> > >I am not worried about the torque multiplication.  I am just happy if
> > >the torque convertor is slipping enough to put me at a higher torque
> > >position on the engine.

Not ever having run a lockup (except in mama's cars), My advice may be
questionable. IMHO, there are a couple of tenths to be had with race style, non
lockup converters  ... they can be tuned also. I had a 2400 lb, 482 BBC sand racer
w/ T350 and several converters. I had plenty of torque but it wouldn't MPH on the
big end. (4.3 sec @85 MPH in 300 feet!!!) Going to a custom converter solved my
problems. They can tune torque multiplication, stall, flash stall, and lockup %.
(stators, fin clearances and fin angles). I have a Fairbanks 10" rebuilt by TCI. I
asked for normal to minimal multiplication (I had too much torque) and as much
lockup as possible over 5000 rpm and efficiency. I didn't care about stall speeds
as most big motors can easily get a 10" converter over 2500 rpm.

It is now in my Cobra and gets 25+ mpg at 75 mph and stalls > 2500 with a small
block and runs 11 flat @ 125, shifting at 5900. The converter is not for sale. Go
figure.  Tom



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan 16 17:23:34 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:23:34 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32231.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

thergen at svn.net wrote:
> 
> Picture an op-amp with the non-iverting input connected to pin 6 and the
> inverting input connected to pin 5.  Pin 5 is also connected to a resistor
> divider network that pulls it to 2/3 Vcc.  There is probably a symbolic
> view on one of the semiconductor manufacturers sites.  I'm looking at the
> cover of two different books that show this configuration.
> 
> The 2/3 reference point can be yanked around to where you want by using
> pin 5.  It can also affect the 1/3 reference for pin 2.
> 

So this pin 5 could be labelled "offset?" In other words, it changes the
voltage that 2/3 of must be reached to trigger? Or put another way, does
it change the reference voltage of the comparator?
> >


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Sat Jan 16 17:29:04 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:29:04 -0500
Subject: Heat sink compound vs. dialectic
Message-ID: <mailman.32232.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



----Original Message-----

> From: Clarence Wood <clarencewood at centuryinter.net>

> Of course I challenged the statement and
> he told me that he had used heat sink compound to insure good connections.
> >  Is heat sink compound a dialectic?  Curious minds want to know!

What is the recommended method of attaching the big switching transistors to a
heat sink (case?) for the EFI332 project??????????????  Thanks  Tom



From villen01 at gel.ulaval.ca  Sat Jan 16 17:33:18 1999
From: villen01 at gel.ulaval.ca (Hugo Villeneuve)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:33:18 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32233.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 10:12 99-01-16 -0500, you wrote:
>Hmm, would someone who has some EE under their belt e-mail
>me or respond to:
>
>How would someone convert a 0-5v signal to a 3.333-5v signal
>using a 324?.  Or is this the "killer".
>Cheers
>Bruce
> 

First: Pass your 0-5V signal through a summing amplifier (one input is
3.333V and the other your signal). The resulting signal should be
3.333-8.333V.

Second: Pass your 3.333-8.333V signal through am amplifier with a gain of
0.333, or 1/3. Your signal should be 3.333-5V.

Of course, this approach requires an operational amplifier (like the 741 or
358) rather than a comparator like the 324. This idea was not tested
experimentally so...

	Hugo Villeneuve
	



From romans at pacbell.net  Sat Jan 16 18:03:13 1999
From: romans at pacbell.net (Mark Romans)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:03:13 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32234.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

TPIS's book, insider hints, on page 17 shows a chart with a 383 w/airflow
research heads, big mouth intake ported plenum, 58mm throttle body and
modified maf using for comparison purposes the stock runners, slp cast,
lingenfelter cast, tpis extruded and tpis siamesed runners.  Obviously the
stock runners at 1.470 diameter id were down from the others oh hp and but
torque was similar but at 700 to 1000 lower rpm band.  With the stock
runners it made 469.6 ft lbs at 3750 rpm's and 390 hp at 5750. The biggest
jump was to the siamesed runners (Which are no longer made by tpis) at 462ft
lbs at 4250 (Actually down) and 427.7 hp at 5750 rpms.  So the stock runners
are not that much of a limitation.  The whole thing works as a system.

I would recommend that anyone wanting to do any playing with a tpi system
buy the tpis book.  They have exhaustive flow tests on every component
documented in this book.

A 406 with a tpi ought to be a really fun combination.

Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: ECMnut at aol.com <ECMnut at aol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC


>Skip this post if you could care less about 400 SBCs
>or drag racing..
>
>With such a low RPM torque peak, some conservative
>rear-end gears (3.55-4.10) will probably work well.
>Peter mentioned traction linitations in a previous post.
>I couldn't agree more.  IF you can keep it connected
>to the pavement, the car should provide big fun..
>The 400 SBC makes lots of torque without such a
>TPI intake amplifying the issue.  With the stock runners,
>it should REALLY make torque by 3,500 RPM.
>Some years back, I had a 2700 lb bracket car with
>a 350 SBC, 5.13 gears decent heads, very mild hydraulic
> cam and a box-stock 750 Holley.  It turned 11.70s all
>day long.  It idled as smooth as a hoover vaccuum cleaner.
>Eventually, I replace the 350 shortblock with a 13:1 400
>shortblock, reusing the heads, cam & everything possible..
>I reduced the rear-end gear from 5.13 to 4.10 because I was
>nervous about turning the "strokey" short-rod 400 too hard.
>The first day out with the 400, it idled perfectly smooth at
>15 inches of vaccuum, and the car turned 10.80s....
>Almost a full second improvement over the 350..
>Even with the gear reduction, the car left the starting
>line much harder than before.  A hard throttle stab
>from a fast idle would pick the front tires up almost
>a foot.  The car was a small Vega with a 3 link suspension
>and 14 inch wide slicks, so traction was usually available.
>If I could have EFI'd this thing, I'm sure it would've been
>faster and cleaner.  Even with a carb, I considered
>getting a tailpipe emmisions test done, but never found
>the time.  The engine stayed in the car until two years
>later, when I sold everything..
>The 400 is really impressive as long as you keep the
>RPMs low (below 6,000?)..  That includes the burnout.
>Despite my persistent warnings about hi RPM death,
>the rookie that bought my car liked the sounds of 8,000
>RPM in the burnout area, and put a rod through the
>oil pan his first day at the track..
>Good luck, I bet the 400 TPI combo will be fun..
>Mike V
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 18:49:47 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:49:47 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32235.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Hugo Villeneuve <villen01 at gel.ulaval.ca>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: 555 EFI


snip

I maybe WAY over my head here, but.....
How about dividing the 0-5 by 3 (voltage divider), and then adding that with
a voltage with the summing amp., that way I don't need a second power
supply???.

741 or 358, which is better for an auto application?.
Bruce


>First: Pass your 0-5V signal through a summing amplifier (one input is
>3.333V and the other your signal). The resulting signal should be
>3.333-8.333V.
>
>Second: Pass your 3.333-8.333V signal through am amplifier with a gain of
>0.333, or 1/3. Your signal should be 3.333-5V.
>
>Of course, this approach requires an operational amplifier (like the 741 or
>358) rather than a comparator like the 324. This idea was not tested
>experimentally so...
>
> Hugo Villeneuve
>
>



From thergen at svn.net  Sat Jan 16 19:00:06 1999
From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:00:06 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32236.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Okay, who's gonna be the first one to say it would be easiear to skip all
the op-amps and use a PIC and some code?  ;) 


On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hugo Villeneuve <villen01 at gel.ulaval.ca>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: 555 EFI
> 
> 
> snip
> 
> I maybe WAY over my head here, but.....
> How about dividing the 0-5 by 3 (voltage divider), and then adding that with
> a voltage with the summing amp., that way I don't need a second power
> supply???.
> 
> 741 or 358, which is better for an auto application?.
> Bruce
> 
> 
> >First: Pass your 0-5V signal through a summing amplifier (one input is
> >3.333V and the other your signal). The resulting signal should be
> >3.333-8.333V.
> >
> >Second: Pass your 3.333-8.333V signal through am amplifier with a gain of
> >0.333, or 1/3. Your signal should be 3.333-5V.
> >
> >Of course, this approach requires an operational amplifier (like the 741 or
> >358) rather than a comparator like the 324. This idea was not tested
> >experimentally so...
> >
> > Hugo Villeneuve
> >
> >
> 



From thergen at svn.net  Sat Jan 16 19:01:48 1999
From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:01:48 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32237.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Clarence L.Snyder wrote:

> thergen at svn.net wrote:
> > 
> > Picture an op-amp with the non-iverting input connected to pin 6 and the
> > inverting input connected to pin 5.  Pin 5 is also connected to a resistor
> > divider network that pulls it to 2/3 Vcc.  There is probably a symbolic
> > view on one of the semiconductor manufacturers sites.  I'm looking at the
> > cover of two different books that show this configuration.
> > 
> > The 2/3 reference point can be yanked around to where you want by using
> > pin 5.  It can also affect the 1/3 reference for pin 2.
> > 
> 
> So this pin 5 could be labelled "offset?" In other words, it changes the
> voltage that 2/3 of must be reached to trigger? Or put another way, does
> it change the reference voltage of the comparator?
> > >
> 
Yes, pin 5 can change the reference voltage of the comparator and could be
labelled an "offset".  Pin 5 is tied directly to the reference voltage of
the comparator (for pin 6) in the symbolic picture I have of a 555.

Tom




From villen01 at gel.ulaval.ca  Sat Jan 16 19:38:22 1999
From: villen01 at gel.ulaval.ca (Hugo Villeneuve)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:38:22 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32238.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I made an inversion in my message regarding conversion of a signal 0-5V to
3.333-5V:

It should read like this:

First: Pass your 0-5V signal through an amplifier with a gain of
0.333, or 1/3. Your signal should be 0-1.666V.

Second: Pass your 0-1.666V signal through a summing amplifier (one input is
3.333V and the other your 0-1.666V signal). The resulting signal should be
3.333-5V.

	Hugo Villeneuve
	
 


From daholtz at axionet.com  Sat Jan 16 20:10:01 1999
From: daholtz at axionet.com (Don Holtz)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:10:01 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI:  Voltage level conversion
Message-ID: <mailman.32239.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Here is another idea:


Since the span of the voltage range that you want to move is smaller (and
not inverted), you can do the conversion WITHOUT using any kind of active
stage.  However, it may be necessary to use some buffering at the input or
output depending on the proceeding section of circuit.

Try this: use a simple resistive voltage divider to reduce the span of the
0-5V signal to  a 0-1.666 signal.  Then use a diode level shifter with high
impedance biasing to shift the range from 0-1.66V up to 3.333-5V.

There are many variations on this idea possible: use a 3 terminal
adjustable regulator as a voltage shifter.

How exact does this conversion need to be?

If you want me to draw up a diagram I will.  And email it to whoever wants.

Just ask.

Cheers,
Don



At 10:12 99-01-16 -0500, you wrote:
>Hmm, would someone who has some EE under their belt e-mail
>me or respond to:
>
>How would someone convert a 0-5v signal to a 3.333-5v signal
>using a 324?.  Or is this the "killer".
>Cheers
>Bruce
> 




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 20:46:37 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:46:37 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI:  Voltage level conversion
Message-ID: <mailman.32240.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Don Holtz <daholtz at axionet.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: 555 EFI: Voltage level conversion

The diode shifter is a new concept to me, I'd like a picture to look at
please.
          nacelp at bright.net
Bruce


>Here is another idea:
>Since the span of the voltage range that you want to move is smaller (and
>not inverted), you can do the conversion WITHOUT using any kind of active
>stage.  However, it may be necessary to use some buffering at the input or
>output depending on the proceeding section of circuit.
>Try this: use a simple resistive voltage divider to reduce the span of the
>0-5V signal to  a 0-1.666 signal.  Then use a diode level shifter with high
>impedance biasing to shift the range from 0-1.66V up to 3.333-5V.
>There are many variations on this idea possible: use a 3 terminal
>adjustable regulator as a voltage shifter.
>How exact does this conversion need to be?

Just repeatable.  Just so long as it doesn't do a bathtub curve.
\____/     Being able to move the slope up or down might be an
advantage.
Bruce
>
>If you want me to draw up a diagram I will.  And email it to whoever wants.
>Just ask.
>Cheers,
>Don
>>Hmm, would someone who has some EE under their belt e-mail
>>me or respond to:
>>How would someone convert a 0-5v signal to a 3.333-5v signal
>>using a 324?.  Or is this the "killer".
>>Cheers
>>Bruce




From mikem at southern.co.nz  Sat Jan 16 20:59:10 1999
From: mikem at southern.co.nz (Mike Morrin)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:59:10 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32241.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 11:00 am 1/16/99 -0800, thergen at svn.net wrote:
>Okay, who's gonna be the first one to say it would be easiear to skip all
>the op-amps and use a PIC and some code?  ;) 

Well I'll be second...

Actually, I have been musing with the idea of using multiple PICs, each
with a subset of the funnctionality of the ECU, one doing crank position
sensing, one doing injection pulse width calculation, one timing and
driving the injectors (and similar for ignition).  

The trick being to ensure that each device is only doing one time-critical
task, so that the worst case timing can be kept under control.

OTOH, you could just program an 8 pin PIC to behave like an "ideal" 555
with whatever charactoristics you want...

regards,

Mike


From btisdale at cybersol.com  Sat Jan 16 21:28:15 1999
From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:28:15 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....
Message-ID: <mailman.32242.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 10:01 AM 1/16/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Is the TCC your using designed for WOT use?...

Everything stock, transmission & converter-wise.  The converter locks *once* @ WOT during each 1/4 mile run - "stock", its @ about 95mph, 4th gear; with the switch, its soon after the 1-2 shift.  I can't see a problem w/ merely choosing the point in the run at which the lockup occurs - it happens anyway.   Aren't changing anything absolute here, just relative.

>FIRST TRUE LAW OF TUNING, Assume nothing, and doument
>everything.  Ya wanna play with shift points, first get a G-Tech, and
>Diacom+, 

Agree completely - I use the GTech & MPSI 9000 (poor man's Diacom) - it records 1/4 mile runs in their entirety, capturing *alternate* frames.  Not the best accuracy for this reason, but I'm working on a gadget to hook up to a PC to get every frame captured.  Theory first, then see if it works as expected in practice.

>SECOND TRUE LAW RULE OF TUNING, speed costs money,.....

Money and TIME, if you do your own repairs of broken stuff!

All of this is just bench racing at this point, as SW Michigan is *not* conducive to doing any runs @ the present time - can't find a clear road anywhere!  Anxiously awaiting springtime - words of wisdom - don't buy a SY in the depths of winter.  Most mods at this point are safety-related, i.e., boost gauge, FP gauge, trans cooler and such.  Have to wait till the weather breaks to do the tuning stuff.

>Cheers
>Bruce

Tata - Barry


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 21:33:21 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:33:21 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32243.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Morrin <mikem at southern.co.nz>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Cc: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: 555 EFI


>>Okay, who's gonna be the first one to say it would be easiear to skip all
>>the op-amps and use a PIC and some code?  ;) 
>Well I'll be second...


Well then start a thread about it and do something.  The 555 is for
those folks, ie like me who just don't "get it" about code.
With all the talk about Pics/Stamps, it's amazing no one has done
anything with them,  or if they have it's a secret.  
   The list is EFI, and 555 is as valid as anything else.
Hey, how about skip the Pic and go to a CPU, oh what that's 332...

>Actually, I have been musing with the idea of using multiple PICs, each
>with a subset of the funnctionality of the ECU, one doing crank position
>sensing, one doing injection pulse width calculation, one timing and
>driving the injectors (and similar for ignition).  
>The trick being to ensure that each device is only doing one time-critical
>task, so that the worst case timing can be kept under control.
>OTOH, you could just program an 8 pin PIC to behave like an "ideal" 555
>with whatever charactoristics you want...
>regards,
>Mike




From jqadir at direct.ca  Sat Jan 16 21:43:30 1999
From: jqadir at direct.ca (jq)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:43:30 -0500
Subject: 96 ford powerstroke
Message-ID: <mailman.32244.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

anyone have a solution for a
problem with a rough idle?
Ford has no idea!

also, has anyone found a good 
performance chip?


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 21:58:48 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:58:48 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....
Message-ID: <mailman.32245.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions.....

I see all the difference in the world, maybe a letter to B Hartman would
be in order
Bruce


>>Is the TCC your using designed for WOT use?...
>Everything stock, transmission & converter-wise.  The converter locks
*once* @ WOT during each 1/4 mile run - "stock", its @ about 95mph, 4th
gear; with the switch, its soon after the 1-2 shift.  I can't see a problem
w/ merely choosing the point in the run at which the lockup occurs - it
happens anyway.   Aren't changing anything absolute here, just relative.
snip
>>Cheers
>>Bruce
>Tata - Barry




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 22:02:41 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:02:41 -0500
Subject: 96 ford powerstroke
Message-ID: <mailman.32246.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: jq <jqadir at direct.ca>
To: DYI EFI <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 4:55 PM
Subject: 96 ford powerstroke

Columbus Diesel, Columbus, OH has fuel additives for diesels that work
really well, I just for the life of me can't come up with the brand name.
Stuff raises
Cetane, and works super, IMHO..  Usually the phone guys can answer
questions, well.
Bruce


>anyone have a solution for a
>problem with a rough idle?
>Ford has no idea!
>
>also, has anyone found a good
>performance chip?
>



From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Sat Jan 16 22:03:17 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:03:17 -0500
Subject: Uploaded BIN to FTP
Message-ID: <mailman.32247.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>It's right here.
>ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/VS_BSTK1451%20%28V6%29.BIN
>I had to right click on it in netscape, but it downloaded.
>
>Shannen
>
>
>>
>> Ross,
>>           I tried to download the bin file to have a look but it came up
>> with a url fault .....any ideas on how to download it????????
>> PAUL.


Well after seeing how the address appears above It must be one of those
Windows things, I thought spaces would be spaces, not %.

Ross



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 22:21:36 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:21:36 -0500
Subject: Synch or Sink?  EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32248.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I have two problems (well, OK, more then two), but for the moment
I have a v-8, and v-6  that I want to go DIS with.
  I'd like to trim off one point of the star on the shaft, and one one the
stationary piece, and then use a peak voltage detector to find when
the 7/5 points line up for a synch signal.
  That way the stock timing corrections would be intact, and no
custom machine work.   Also, this means being able to use the oem module,
and such.
  Any thoughts?
Bruce



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 16 22:26:58 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:26:58 -0500
Subject: Uploaded BIN to FTP
Message-ID: <mailman.32249.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Myers <ponty at axis.jeack.com.au>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: Uploaded BIN to FTP

Ross I sent you a copy of it last night
Bruce


>
>
>>It's right here.
>>ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/VS_BSTK1451%20%28V6%29.BIN
>>I had to right click on it in netscape, but it downloaded.
>>
>>Shannen
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Ross,
>>>           I tried to download the bin file to have a look but it came up
>>> with a url fault .....any ideas on how to download it????????
>>> PAUL.
>
>
>Well after seeing how the address appears above It must be one of those
>Windows things, I thought spaces would be spaces, not %.
>
>Ross
>



From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Jan 16 22:32:04 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:32:04 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....
Message-ID: <mailman.32250.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> At 10:01 AM 1/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >Is the TCC your using designed for WOT use?...
> 
> Everything stock, transmission & converter-wise.  The converter locks *once* @ WOT during each 1/4 mile run - "stock", its @ about 95mph, 4th gear; with the switch, its soon after the 1-2 shift.  I can't see a problem w/ merely choosing the point in the run at which the lockup occurs - it happens anyway.   Aren't changing anything absolute here, just relative.

Just a note, unless you've done some specific changes to run with TCC
off all the time, do not run continously without TCC on in 4th.  The
oil flow to the cooler is greatly reduced when tcc is off, and the
eventual result is overheat and R+R trans.  I realize you're talking
about 1/4 mile, but it's easy to forget to switch TCC on while on the
street.
Shannen



From AJLegere at aol.com  Sat Jan 16 22:33:22 1999
From: AJLegere at aol.com (AJLegere at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:33:22 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32251.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Mark,

Try our this site for a 406 SBC plus miniram.

http://www.d-p-g.com/CORVETTEFEVER/aug96/eL.htm

AJL


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 16 22:49:01 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:49:01 -0500
Subject: Low Pressure Transducers
Message-ID: <mailman.32252.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hi Joel
>There is a panel "meter'' available called a MAGNA-HELIC used to monitor
>the static pressure in clean rooms that does just this. New they would be
>several hundred dollars, they are shown in the McMaster Caar catalog, but
>they show up in Southern CA swapmeets for around $10.
>Otherwise a manometer will do the job for ultra cheap.
>Lotsa Luck Eric
>85 GTI with VR6 Power

Magna-Helic is made by Dwyer Instruments, Inc. (800) 872-9057.

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 16 23:00:51 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:00:51 -0500
Subject: TCC lockup - which scheme would give better performance?
Message-ID: <mailman.32253.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Roger Heflin wrote:
>
>> > >I am not worried about the torque multiplication.  I am just happy if
>> > >the torque convertor is slipping enough to put me at a higher torque
>> > >position on the engine.
>
>Not ever having run a lockup (except in mama's cars), My advice may be
>questionable. IMHO, there are a couple of tenths to be had with race style, non
>lockup converters  ... they can be tuned also. I had a 2400 lb, 482 BBC
>sand racer
>w/ T350 and several converters. I had plenty of torque but it wouldn't MPH
>on the
>big end. (4.3 sec @85 MPH in 300 feet!!!) Going to a custom converter solved my
>problems. They can tune torque multiplication, stall, flash stall, and
>lockup %.
>(stators, fin clearances and fin angles). I have a Fairbanks 10" rebuilt
>by TCI. I
>asked for normal to minimal multiplication (I had too much torque) and as much
>lockup as possible over 5000 rpm and efficiency. I didn't care about stall
>speeds
>as most big motors can easily get a 10" converter over 2500 rpm.
>
>It is now in my Cobra and gets 25+ mpg at 75 mph and stalls > 2500 with a small
>block and runs 11 flat @ 125, shifting at 5900. The converter is not for
>sale. Go
>figure.  Tom

Funny how things done right by people who know how, and who are given
enough info to work from tend to work right, ain't it Tom??

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 16 23:41:48 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:41:48 -0500
Subject: Uploaded BIN to FTP
Message-ID: <mailman.32254.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ross Myers <ponty at axis.jeack.com.au>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 5:24 PM
>Subject: Re: Uploaded BIN to FTP
>
>Ross I sent you a copy of it last night
>Bruce
>
>
>>
>>
>>>It's right here.
>>>ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/VS_BSTK1451%20%28V6%29.BIN
>>>I had to right click on it in netscape, but it downloaded.
>>>
>>>Shannen
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ross,
>>>>           I tried to download the bin file to have a look but it came up
>>>> with a url fault .....any ideas on how to download it????????
>>>> PAUL.
>>
>>
>>Well after seeing how the address appears above It must be one of those
>>Windows things, I thought spaces would be spaces, not %.

Not to be repetitive, BUT:

Windows 9x: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for  a 16 bit patch
to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for  a 4 bit microprocessor,
written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition.

:-)

Regards, Greg
>>
>>Ross
>>




From mpilkent at ptw.com  Sun Jan 17 00:30:10 1999
From: mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:30:10 -0500
Subject: engine tranny mating
Message-ID: <mailman.32255.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well I've included three list of experts so I hope someone can help me out.
I have a 3.1L GM V6 from a 92 Camaro (basically the 3rd generation 2.8L
motor) and a Borg Warner T5 tranny from a 87 S10 Pickup that I need to mate
together for my Kit car project.

    You may ask why not the T5 that came with the Camaro?  Well the T5 is
basically the same throughout the years but the S-10 version has the shifter
7 inches closer to the engine than the Camaro version that is all the way in
back.  Problem is the clutch assembly doesn't line up with the spline
location on the tranny input shaft.  The splines are the same, just too far
forward.  My guess is the Camaro flywheel is about 1/2 inch thicker than the
2.8 version putting the clutch and pressure plate closer to the tranny.
Anybody have any knowledge of these parts?  Any Fiero folks doing the 3.1L
conversion trick know if the flywheels and clutch parts from the Camaro are
different?  Will the 2.8 flywheels bolt to the 3.1 crank?

Thanks for any advice,
Mike



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan 17 00:40:06 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:40:06 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32256.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 12:34 PM 1/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 10:12 99-01-16 -0500, you wrote:
>>Hmm, would someone who has some EE under their belt e-mail
>>me or respond to:
>>
>>How would someone convert a 0-5v signal to a 3.333-5v signal
>>using a 324?.  Or is this the "killer".
>>Cheers
>>Bruce
>> 
>
>First: Pass your 0-5V signal through a summing amplifier (one input is
>3.333V and the other your signal). The resulting signal should be
>3.333-8.333V.
>
>Second: Pass your 3.333-8.333V signal through am amplifier with a gain of
>0.333, or 1/3. Your signal should be 3.333-5V.

Nope... Pass it thru a 1/3 gain amp and the level will be from 1.111 to 2.777V
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan 17 00:50:35 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:50:35 -0500
Subject: 96 ford powerstroke
Message-ID: <mailman.32257.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

That's a diesel, Right?
Rough idle can be lean injectors, air in the fuel lines, poor compression
on one cyl...
Then there is the definintion of what constitutes a rough idle... are you
just feeling it more? if so, the motor and trans mounts could be suspect.


At 01:41 PM 1/16/99 -0800, you wrote:
>anyone have a solution for a
>problem with a rough idle?
>Ford has no idea!
>
>also, has anyone found a good 
>performance chip?

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Sun Jan 17 01:13:40 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:13:40 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32258.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Use a pair of resisters as a voltage devider to reduce it to a 0-1.667
volt signal, then use an op-amp adder to add it to a steady 3.333 V
level.  You can find the diagram for a voltage adder (summing amplifier)
in any book on op-amps.

Ray Drouillard


On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:12:26 -0500 "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
writes:
>Hmm, would someone who has some EE under their belt e-mail
>me or respond to:
>
>How would someone convert a 0-5v signal to a 3.333-5v signal
>using a 324?.  Or is this the "killer".
>Cheers
>Bruce
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 17 01:50:16 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:50:16 -0500
Subject: DIS Integration
Message-ID: <mailman.32259.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Is the following correct?.

There are three Buick v-6 DIS setups

1.   85-87  RWD  that uses a crank sensor, and a cam posistion 
sensor that would go where the distributor would normally.

2.   FWD using a crank sensor, and then the cam sensor is in the
timing chain cover (meaning there are two seperate sensors).

3.  FWD where both the crank, and synch sensors are located 
on the crankshaft pulley.
Thanks
Bruce



From Tedscj at aol.com  Sun Jan 17 02:13:00 1999
From: Tedscj at aol.com (Tedscj at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:13:00 -0500
Subject: DIS Integration
Message-ID: <mailman.32260.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/16/99 8:56:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp at bright.net
writes:

<< s the following correct?.
 
 There are three Buick v-6 DIS setups
 
 1.   85-87  RWD  that uses a crank sensor, and a cam posistion 
 sensor that would go where the distributor would normally.
 
 2.   FWD using a crank sensor, and then the cam sensor is in the
 timing chain cover (meaning there are two separate sensors).
 
 3.  FWD where both the crank, and synch sensors are located 
 on the crankshaft pulley.
 Thanks
 Bruce
  >>

Well, I converted my car to DIS.  My DIS came from the FWD 2.8 and 3.1 V6's
from about '87 to '91 (maybe later) J-bodies.  But I don't think it was used
on any Buicks.
It utilizes ONE sensor reading off the crankshaft from about it's center (the
sensor goes in to the center of the block).  There are 7 pulses.  1 every 60
degrees (TDC, TDC+ 60, TDC+120, etc.) plus 1 additional at 10 degrees after
TDC for the sync.
I just welded some bolt heads on to the edge of one of my pulleys in the
appropriate places and then created a bracket for the sensor and it worked.
Again, there is only ONE sensor that transmits ALL pulses PLUS the sync pulse.

HTH
Ted


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 17 02:20:49 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:20:49 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32261.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond C Drouillard <cosmic.ray at juno.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: 555 EFI

OK, I found a diagram for a summing amp, but is uses a dual polarity
power source, anyone got a clue for how to do a summing amp with
just +5v power supply?.  Or can it be done with a single?.
Bruce


>Use a pair of resisters as a voltage devider to reduce it to a 0-1.667
>volt signal, then use an op-amp adder to add it to a steady 3.333 V
>level.  You can find the diagram for a voltage adder (summing amplifier)
>in any book on op-amps.
>
>Ray Drouillard
>
>
>On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:12:26 -0500 "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
>writes:
>>Hmm, would someone who has some EE under their belt e-mail
>>me or respond to:
>>
>>How would someone convert a 0-5v signal to a 3.333-5v signal
>>using a 324?.  Or is this the "killer".
>>Cheers
>>Bruce
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>



From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sun Jan 17 03:23:53 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 22:23:53 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32262.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> OK, I found a diagram for a summing amp, but is uses a dual polarity
> power source, anyone got a clue for how to do a summing amp with
> just +5v power supply?.  Or can it be done with a single?.

Easy... I've done this before... however certain op-amps,
with JFET inputs tend to lose some consistancy in their
amplifications or inverting... the LM324 and the 741 and
741C do just fine.

Put a 1k resistor between +V and the "virtual ground" and a
1k resistor between -V (real ground) and the "virtual
ground".  Then, you have a split power supply for Op-Amps. 
This works very well, and I've done this many, many times
for little amplifier projects where the pre-amp stage needed
to have a split powersupply, and I  didn't want to run two
9V batteries, just one.  Can you picture it, or should I do
a quickie GIF tomorrow?




-- 
Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

http://www.xephic.dynip.com
1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)


From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sun Jan 17 03:25:07 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 22:25:07 -0500
Subject: DIS Integration
Message-ID: <mailman.32263.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 1.   85-87  RWD  that uses a crank sensor, and a cam posistion
> sensor that would go where the distributor would normally.
> 
> 2.   FWD using a crank sensor, and then the cam sensor is in the
> timing chain cover (meaning there are two seperate sensors).
> 
> 3.  FWD where both the crank, and synch sensors are located
> on the crankshaft pulley.

The bottom two are absolutely correct, however I have
personally never seen the first, even though I'm sure it
exists.


From ludis at cruzers.com  Sun Jan 17 04:59:07 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:59:07 -0500
Subject: 24000 ppm VSS?
Message-ID: <mailman.32264.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've come across a PROM which appears to expect a 24000 pulse-per-mile
VSS.  Its the ANAM1667 used in the 1227748 ECM.  This PROM configures a
VSS interface chip to perform an extra "divide-by-6".  Other PROMs for
this ECM set it to "divide-by-1" mode.  The ANAM PROM also has an extra
factor of six in the VSS to vehicle speed calculation code (which gets
the VSS signal before the hardware divide).

Could this PROM be for a reluctor type VSS?  I should have kept track of
what type of car it came out of.

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/




From ludis at cruzers.com  Sun Jan 17 04:59:10 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:59:10 -0500
Subject: Schematic symbol for zero crossing detector
Message-ID: <mailman.32265.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I wish to create a schematic symbol for a chip which contains a zero
crossing detector.  Instead of just a black box, I'd like to make the
functionality obvious with a mini-schematic of a zero crossing detector.

The detector functions as follows:  If the input voltage is much below
zero, or much above zero, the digital output is "low".  If the input
voltage is close to zero, the output is "high".  This is different than
a simple comparator checking against zero volts.

Is there a standard symbol for this?  It could be drawn/built with two
comparators but the input would need lots of resistor biasing because
there is no negative power supply.

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/



From btisdale at cybersol.com  Sun Jan 17 05:48:22 1999
From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:48:22 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....
Message-ID: <mailman.32266.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Please explain -

Barry

At 05:01 PM 1/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 4:44 PM
>Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions.....
>
>I see all the difference in the world, maybe a letter to B Hartman would
>be in order
>Bruce



From mpitts at emi.net  Sun Jan 17 07:11:21 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 02:11:21 -0500
Subject: DIS Integration
Message-ID: <mailman.32267.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>> 1.   85-87  RWD  that uses a crank sensor, and a cam posistion
>> sensor that would go where the distributor would normally.

This correctly describes the system used on Buick Turbo engines 
of the 84-87 model years.  (And '89 TTA)

The crank hub has three interrupters equally spaced at 120 deg. 
The cam position sensor has one window.  All the cam position 
sensor is used for, as far as timing is concerned, is telling the 
module which crank interrupter is #1.  Fuel wise, it is used for 
the timing of the sequential fueling system, since it would be 
impossible to determine the proper sequential fuel timing from 
the crank (720 degrees per 6 injector rotation).

I am interested in adding DIS to my 4.3L Chevy V6.  Adding a 
method of determining the #1 cyl. is probably all that would be 
needed since the six point "star" inside the distributor could 
suffice as a crank sensor replacement as it provides 3 pulses 
for every 360 deg. of the crank.

-Mike




From gem at alphalink.com.au  Sun Jan 17 09:50:42 1999
From: gem at alphalink.com.au (paul)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 04:50:42 -0500
Subject: Fw: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32268.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



----------
> From: paul <gem at alphalink.com.au>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Haltech E6GM
> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 10:05 PM
> 
> Hi All,
>          The reason I am selling the haltech e6gm is that I bought
another
> race car ,from a guy called Doug robson whos name appears in the archive
> files.
> Doug if you read this contact me.......
> My wife won't let me keep two race cars so I am selling bits and pieces
and
> or the whole car. the E6gm price is about AUS$1000 .A loom and sensors
> could be supplied at a price.p.s only used on Sundays.
> PAUL
> 
> ----------
> > From: Robert E. Yorke <yorker at deltanet.com>
> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > Subject: Re: Haltech E6GM
> > Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 5:31 PM
> > 
> > Paul:
> > 
> > If you found it to be so user friendly, why do you want to sell it?  At
> any
> > rate, what is your asking price?
> > 
> > 
> > At 03:10 PM 1/16/1999 +1100, you wrote:
> > >Hi There,
> > >             Maybe I can Help.I own a Haltech E6GM and an Autronic SMC
> > >unit.
> > >The E6GM has 22 fuel ranges every 500rpm up to 10500rpm or 17 fuel
> ranges 
> > >every 1000rpm up to 16000rpm and 32 load points per range.
> > > These are the same for spark and fuel which gives a very precise
> > >adjustment.
> > >this is also interpolated to work out smaller increments.
> > >This system is definately much more user friendly than the Autronic
> system.
> > >Another great feature is the data logging but the laptop must be
plugged
> in
> > >for recording the info.I hope this info has been useful.
> > >P.S    my E6GM ecm is for sale but I live in Australia so someone else
> out
> > >there may be interested.
> > >PAUL.
> > >----------
> > >> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> > >> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > >> Subject: Re: Haltech E6GM
> > >> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 12:22 PM
> > >> 
> > >> Is the E6GM capable of 500 RPM resolution? It's hard to tell
> > >> from the Haltech page, and the post in the archives didn't
> > >> elaborate. If so then I don't see any problem for my
> > >> application. Hhmm, seems like I'm trying to talk myself into
> > >> the Haltech unit, A 500 dollar difference is a persuasive
> > >> argument  :)
> > >> 
> > >> Charles Brooks
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> Bruce Plecan wrote:
> > >> >  
> > >> > 1,000 rpm for a 12,000 rpm capacity calibration, 500 rpm
resolution
> for
> > >a
> > >> > 6,000 rpm calibation.  Meaning no correction over 6,000 rpm not
> > >> > that the ecm wouldn't work at higher speeds.
> > >> > Bruce
> > 


From gem at alphalink.com.au  Sun Jan 17 09:51:00 1999
From: gem at alphalink.com.au (paul)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 04:51:00 -0500
Subject: Fw: bin
Message-ID: <mailman.32269.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BE425A.625CEEA0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



----------
> From: paul <gem at alphalink.com.au>
> To: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
> Subject: Re: bin
> Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 8:43 PM
> 
> Hi ALL,
>            Here are two Haltech programs for anyone to view .The first is
> the VNV6 program, this came with my unit when I purchased it it is for a
> Holden commodore (AUST.) The second program is from my Gemini race car
> (isuzu I-mark in the U.S).It is for a 4 cylinder norm.asprirated Isuzu
twin
> cam .The engine made 120hp at the wheels.
> 
> ----------
> > From: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
> > To: paul <gem at alphalink.com.au>
> > Subject: Re: bin
> > Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 1:10 AM
> > 
> > Don't bother doing anything to them, just use the file extension
> > .6am, and send them as attachments to this same address.
> > The E6GM is a new animal for me, and I'm just trying to get a
> > bunch of files, so I can get a feel for what kind of car likes what.
> > THANKS
> > Bruce
> > 
> > 
> > >If you are asking me (PAUL) I have one or two that I could send as
long
> as
> > >you tell me how to send these files and where to.
> > >PAUL.
> > >
> > >----------
> > >> From: Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net>
> > >> To: gem at alphalink.com.au
> > >> Subject: bin
> > >> Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 3:49 PM
> > >> 
> > >> >From incoming,
> > >> ya got any haltech calibrations that you wouldn't mind sharing?.
> > >> With just a word about what it's for?.
> > >> Cheers
> > >> Bruce
> > >> 
> > >
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From dcsmith at gnttype.org  Sun Jan 17 10:03:40 1999
From: dcsmith at gnttype.org (DC Smith)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:03:40 -0500
Subject: DIS Integration
Message-ID: <mailman.32270.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> Is the following correct?.
> 
> There are three Buick v-6 DIS setups
> 
> 1.   85-87  RWD  that uses a crank sensor, and a cam posistion
> sensor that would go where the distributor would normally.
> 
> 2.   FWD using a crank sensor, and then the cam sensor is in the
> timing chain cover (meaning there are two seperate sensors).
> 
> 3.  FWD where both the crank, and synch sensors are located
> on the crankshaft pulley.
> Thanks
> Bruce

 I may be worng here, Bruce, but I think you pretty much covered it.

-- 
************************************************************************
Dan Smith                                  GSCA# 1459
St.Charles,Mo                
mailto:morepoweral at tetranet.net
http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral
************************************************************************


From aris at exmail.panafon.gr  Sun Jan 17 11:07:11 1999
From: aris at exmail.panafon.gr (HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 06:07:11 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32271.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Matt, Bruce & Robert,

after following your inputs and using the web as much as I could, I have
now found and ordered a XR 700 ignition unit from Crane Cams which WILL
definitely fit the original Magnetti Marell distributor of the Dino
engine and replace the twin contact breakers with an optical pick up.
This most definitely covers adequately the first part of my project,
i.e. replacement of the antiquated distributor points!

The next now is to disable the existing (horrible) centrifugal advance
mechanism, which is easy.

However the 3rd is to then need to insert a digital programmable
ignition advance / retard mapping unit between the optical interruptor
output and the ignition unit.

Hmmmm after looking in the WWW for ages I have been unable to locate
such a unit devoid of other frills or compromises (e.g. just turbo or
Nitrous Oxide retard which really is quite different from what I need).

My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ...
"... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
unit
implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16
sites.
4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
degrees of detonation induced retard.
5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
(already fitted in my car)...."

Any ideas will be highly appreciated.

Regards
Aris
 ----------
From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Date: 09 January 1999 23:48

Matt, Bruce & Robert thank you very much. I will use your interesting
inputs to begin assembling a viable solution to my DINO engine problem.
I guess I will start looking for the web sites of Allison, Crane
Camshafts, Holley & MSD.

Bruce, can you pls provide info about the Australian DIY kits you
mention in your reply. Concerning the diy_efi web page and project
332EFI, I am aware of it but at this instant I have too litlle time to
get involved so deeply!

Regards

Aris
 ----------
From: Matt Beaubien
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Date: 08 January 1999 23:28

Bruce,

> >The requirements are relatively simple:
> >1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick up
> >arranged to fire every 60 degrees.
>
> Crane Camshafts in Florida, USA, makes a universal optical ignition.
>
> >2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism.
> >3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard unit
> >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least
16
> >sites.
>
> Commercially MSD, Holley make said units,  kits are available from
> Australia, for a DIY.  Use the optics to trigger a oem ecm, and just
> use the ignition part of that.  If you want to do a total DIY visit
332EFI,
> you can get there off the diy_efi home page.

The Accel 49340 (IIRC) allows what the orginal poster is looking for. It
has adjustable vacuum/boost advance/retard as well as a N20 input. It
may
require a magnetic reluctor-type signal to function though.

I don't think MSD makes something similar (you can only adjust the slope
and max advance as far as I know), and I'm not too familiar with the
Holley stuff. The Accel piece is ~$150-$200.

Hope that helps.

Matt.




From amarch at icenet.com.au  Sun Jan 17 12:26:47 1999
From: amarch at icenet.com.au (Andrew March)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:26:47 -0500
Subject: EECSucka
Message-ID: <mailman.32272.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi

This is a general post to Ford owners interested in reading the ROM
inside their EEC-IV engine control unit for educational, research or
archive purposes. For plans on building a J3 service port reader (known
as the EECSucka) see http://www.icenet.com.au/~amarch/eec.htm

I've placed the design into the public domain for the delectation and
amusement of home constructors. Anyone wanting a proper Printed Circuit
Board or built up unit should contact me at amarch at icenet.com.au

At this stage there is no PCB available - I'm just trying to establish
if there is enough demand to justify tooling up. The more replies I get
the sooner this will happen. Projected cost for a bare PCB is Australian
$20 assuming 10 purchasers.

Also, could those who have already built this unit please let me know
how you fared? Thanks.

As my mailing list subsription may not yet be working, please post
replies to amarch at icenet.com.au.

Thanks.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew March                               PO Box 420 Subiaco
amarch at icenet.com.au                   WESTERN AUSTRALIA 6008
http://www.icenet.com.au/~amarch




From sschaaf at ERINet.com  Sun Jan 17 13:41:33 1999
From: sschaaf at ERINet.com (Scott Schaaf)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 08:41:33 -0500
Subject: Schematic symbol for zero crossing detector
Message-ID: <mailman.32273.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ludis Langens wrote:
> 
> I wish to create a schematic symbol for a chip which contains a zero
> crossing detector.  Instead of just a black box, I'd like to make the
> functionality obvious with a mini-schematic of a zero crossing detector.
> 
> The detector functions as follows:  If the input voltage is much below
> zero, or much above zero, the digital output is "low".  If the input
> voltage is close to zero, the output is "high".  This is different than
> a simple comparator checking against zero volts.
> 
> Is there a standard symbol for this?  It could be drawn/built with two
> comparators but the input would need lots of resistor biasing because
> there is no negative power supply.
> 
> --
> Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
> Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/



There IS a symbol for this,,, I think I have one at work.  If I can find
it, I will scan and send it to you.    If you look in Digi-Key, or
Newark catalogs, I think you might find a print of one in the
specialized I.C. area.

					Scott...


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 17 14:42:10 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:42:10 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....
Message-ID: <mailman.32274.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions.....


>Please explain -

By example, in first gear the engine acclerates at a rate of 2,000 rpm
per second, in third it's like 2,000rpm per 5.
  In third there is no gear multiplication (tranny wise).
  With a 6 it's much harder on the converter than a 8.  The firing
pulsations are 120d apart instead of 90d so the converter is being
more hammered by each engine power producing event.  The
Crank is moving as a series of accleration, and deccelerations,
rather than a smooth rotation.
  The less room the is for slippage their is in a drivetrain, the more
often, things break from shock loads.  ie Huge tires, double disc
clutch, short gears, 4 cyl engine, wide ratio tranny,  heavy car, figure on
carring, spare u-joints.
  AWD, like your's places such extra loads, transfer case, visc coupling,
differential, extra driveshaft, axles, and traction from the
other tires, and you want to eliminate any slippage.  And how much does your
truck weight?.
  How many syty broken trannies have you read about?.
  It's already marginal in my book, why ask for overloading it.
  The gear spacing from 1st to 2nd in the 700R is about the most
drastic in automotive use (automatic).   But, just so the car feels
good to Joe average they did that so they could use more like
freeway flyer gears, for MPG numbers.
   Hech, you can dial the boost up, so why not do that?.  Cause first
you want to make sure all the players, can handle the new load.
Fuel pump, chip calibration, go with that change.
  Sorry to go on, but I just hate seeing broken parts...
Again, just my 02 cents
Cheers
Bruce         We're starting a new class of car, instead of Pro Stock,
                   Pro Steet, Pro Cruise, we're working on Pro Zac.  For
                   those too crazy to know when to quit.
>
>Barry
>
>At 05:01 PM 1/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com>
>>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>>Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 4:44 PM
>>Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions.....
>>
>>I see all the difference in the world, maybe a letter to B Hartman would
>>be in order
>>Bruce
>



From Oliver.Jandousek at post.rwth-aachen.de  Sun Jan 17 15:26:13 1999
From: Oliver.Jandousek at post.rwth-aachen.de (The Stallion)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:26:13 -0500
Subject: No Subject
Message-ID: <mailman.32275.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello



From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 17 15:57:08 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:57:08 -0500
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32276.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 <aris at exmail.panafon.gr>
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 6:23 AM
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance


>The next now is to disable the existing (horrible) centrifugal advance
>mechanism, which is easy.
>However the 3rd is to then need to insert a digital programmable
>ignition advance / retard mapping unit between the optical interruptor
>output and the ignition unit.
>Hmmmm after looking in the WWW for ages I have been unable to locate
>such a unit devoid of other frills or compromises (e.g. just turbo or
>Nitrous Oxide retard which really is quite different from what I need).

Which means?.  You want someone to custom design something for
you?.  Your wanting to design your own?.  Or you need to adjust
what you want, to what's available.  Or dig further for answers.
Maybe use part of a oem ecm, for timing control.
Bruce  
>
>My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ...
>"... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
>unit
>implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16
>sites.
>4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
>degrees of detonation induced retard.
>5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
>breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
>(already fitted in my car)...."
>Any ideas will be highly appreciated.
>Regards
>Aris




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan 17 16:23:26 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:23:26 -0500
Subject: DIS Integration
Message-ID: <mailman.32277.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 03:20 AM 1/17/99 +0000, you wrote:
>> 1.   85-87  RWD  that uses a crank sensor, and a cam posistion
>> sensor that would go where the distributor would normally.
>> 
>> 2.   FWD using a crank sensor, and then the cam sensor is in the
>> timing chain cover (meaning there are two seperate sensors).
>> 
>> 3.  FWD where both the crank, and synch sensors are located
>> on the crankshaft pulley.
>
>The bottom two are absolutely correct, however I have
>personally never seen the first, even though I'm sure it
>exists.


The first is actually 84-87 RWD... it's the pair used by the Buick GN's.
(had an 85)

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From A70Duster at aol.com  Sun Jan 17 16:27:43 1999
From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:27:43 -0500
Subject: Pingin'
Message-ID: <mailman.32278.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

With coming into a '85 turbo EXP (w/ a turbo leaking oil into the intake side)
the car had EXTREMELY bad detonation.  When I repaired the turbo (stopped the
oil leak) the detonation went away (and all that blue smoke :) ).  I've heard
that oil in the air/fuel mixture causes detonation and I'd like to know why?
Any intelligent answers out there?? 

Thanks....


From JRECPA at aol.com  Sun Jan 17 16:47:15 1999
From: JRECPA at aol.com (JRECPA at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:47:15 -0500
Subject: Pingin'
Message-ID: <mailman.32279.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/17/99 9:33:29 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
A70Duster at aol.com writes:

<< With coming into a '85 turbo EXP (w/ a turbo leaking oil into the intake
side)
 the car had EXTREMELY bad detonation.  When I repaired the turbo (stopped the
 oil leak) the detonation went away (and all that blue smoke :) ).  I've heard
 that oil in the air/fuel mixture causes detonation and I'd like to know why?
 Any intelligent answers out there?? 
 
 Thanks....
  >>
Oil has a very low octane rating that is why.

James


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan 17 16:52:41 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:52:41 -0500
Subject: Pingin'
Message-ID: <mailman.32280.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 11:27 AM 1/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>With coming into a '85 turbo EXP (w/ a turbo leaking oil into the intake side)
>the car had EXTREMELY bad detonation.  When I repaired the turbo (stopped the
>oil leak) the detonation went away (and all that blue smoke :) ).  I've heard
>that oil in the air/fuel mixture causes detonation and I'd like to know why?
>Any intelligent answers out there?? 

Oil is of an extremely low octane (if used for fuel).  when the engine
starts sucking oil through the intake, it is mixed with the air fuel
mixture effectively reducing it's octane rating.  Even though you may be
running gas with a 93 rating, with enough oil you may be down to 80...
Like mixing kerosene with your gas... it lowers the octane.
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From israels at MNSi.Net  Sun Jan 17 17:27:35 1999
From: israels at MNSi.Net (todd israels)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:27:35 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32281.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 12:11 PM 1/17/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Matt, Bruce & Robert,
>
>after following your inputs and using the web as much as I could, I have
>now found and ordered a XR 700 ignition unit from Crane Cams which WILL
>definitely fit the original Magnetti Marell distributor of the Dino
>engine and replace the twin contact breakers with an optical pick up.
>This most definitely covers adequately the first part of my project,
>i.e. replacement of the antiquated distributor points!
>
>The next now is to disable the existing (horrible) centrifugal advance
>mechanism, which is easy.
>
>However the 3rd is to then need to insert a digital programmable
>ignition advance / retard mapping unit between the optical interruptor
>output and the ignition unit.
>
>Hmmmm after looking in the WWW for ages I have been unable to locate
>such a unit devoid of other frills or compromises (e.g. just turbo or
>Nitrous Oxide retard which really is quite different from what I need).
>
>My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ...
>"... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
>unit
>implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16
>sites.
>4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
>degrees of detonation induced retard.
>5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
>breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
>(already fitted in my car)...."
>
>Any ideas will be highly appreciated.
>
>Regards
>Aris
> ----------
>From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800
>To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Electronic timing advance
>Date: 09 January 1999 23:48
>
>Matt, Bruce & Robert thank you very much. I will use your interesting
>inputs to begin assembling a viable solution to my DINO engine problem.
>I guess I will start looking for the web sites of Allison, Crane
>Camshafts, Holley & MSD.
>
>Bruce, can you pls provide info about the Australian DIY kits you
>mention in your reply. Concerning the diy_efi web page and project
>332EFI, I am aware of it but at this instant I have too litlle time to
>get involved so deeply!
>
>Regards
>
>Aris
> ----------
>From: Matt Beaubien
>To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Electronic timing advance
>Date: 08 January 1999 23:28
>
>Bruce,
>
>> >The requirements are relatively simple:
>> >1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick up
>> >arranged to fire every 60 degrees.
>>
>> Crane Camshafts in Florida, USA, makes a universal optical ignition.
>>
>> >2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism.
>> >3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard unit
>> >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least
>16
>> >sites.
>>
>> Commercially MSD, Holley make said units,  kits are available from
>> Australia, for a DIY.  Use the optics to trigger a oem ecm, and just
>> use the ignition part of that.  If you want to do a total DIY visit
>332EFI,
>> you can get there off the diy_efi home page.
>
>The Accel 49340 (IIRC) allows what the orginal poster is looking for. It
>has adjustable vacuum/boost advance/retard as well as a N20 input. It
>may
>require a magnetic reluctor-type signal to function though.
>
>I don't think MSD makes something similar (you can only adjust the slope
>and max advance as far as I know), and I'm not too familiar with the
>Holley stuff. The Accel piece is ~$150-$200.
>
>Hope that helps.
>
>Matt.
>
>
>
>
	I came across a device that might suite your purpose but didnt notice
boost retard.  I have not had a chance to try this yet.  

try this address:	http://www.picnpoke.com/projects/ignition.html

I looked in help(Eudora Light) but couldent see how to add this as a link




From ludis at cruzers.com  Sun Jan 17 18:12:59 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:12:59 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI:  Voltage level conversion
Message-ID: <mailman.32282.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Don Holtz <daholtz at axionet.com> wrote:
> Since the span of the voltage range that you want to move is smaller (and
> not inverted), you can do the conversion WITHOUT using any kind of active
> stage.  However, it may be necessary to use some buffering at the input or
> output depending on the proceeding section of circuit.

Yes, that's quite right!  Why didn't someone point this out earlier?

> Try this: use a simple resistive voltage divider to reduce the span of the
> 0-5V signal to  a 0-1.666 signal.  Then use a diode level shifter with high
> impedance biasing to shift the range from 0-1.66V up to 3.333-5V.

No level shifter is required.  Use a voltage divider to 5V, instead of
GND like normal.  For example, connect a 2K resistor between the 0-5V
signal and the output node.  Then connect a 1K resistor between the
output node and 5V.  The output of this divider will be 3+1/3 to 5V.

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/



From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 17 18:17:03 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:17:03 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32283.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: todd israels <israels at MNSi.Net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance


This is Jaycar
Bruce
snip

 
>
>try this address: http://www.picnpoke.com/projects/ignition.html
>
>I looked in help(Eudora Light) but couldent see how to add this as a link




From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Sun Jan 17 18:18:10 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:18:10 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32284.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Any idea's where to get this book?


----------
From: 	Mark Romans[SMTP:romans at pacbell.net]
Sent: 	January 18, 1999 11:04 AM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC

TPIS's book, insider hints, on page 17 shows a chart with a 383 w/airflow
research heads, big mouth intake ported plenum, 58mm throttle body and
modified maf using for comparison purposes the stock runners, slp cast,
lingenfelter cast, tpis extruded and tpis siamesed runners.  Obviously the
stock runners at 1.470 diameter id were down from the others oh hp and but
torque was similar but at 700 to 1000 lower rpm band.  With the stock
runners it made 469.6 ft lbs at 3750 rpm's and 390 hp at 5750. The biggest
jump was to the siamesed runners (Which are no longer made by tpis) at 462ft
lbs at 4250 (Actually down) and 427.7 hp at 5750 rpms.  So the stock runners
are not that much of a limitation.  The whole thing works as a system.

I would recommend that anyone wanting to do any playing with a tpi system
buy the tpis book.  They have exhaustive flow tests on every component
documented in this book.

A 406 with a tpi ought to be a really fun combination.

Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: ECMnut at aol.com <ECMnut at aol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC


>Skip this post if you could care less about 400 SBCs
>or drag racing..
>
>With such a low RPM torque peak, some conservative
>rear-end gears (3.55-4.10) will probably work well.
>Peter mentioned traction linitations in a previous post.
>I couldn't agree more.  IF you can keep it connected
>to the pavement, the car should provide big fun..
>The 400 SBC makes lots of torque without such a
>TPI intake amplifying the issue.  With the stock runners,
>it should REALLY make torque by 3,500 RPM.
>Some years back, I had a 2700 lb bracket car with
>a 350 SBC, 5.13 gears decent heads, very mild hydraulic
> cam and a box-stock 750 Holley.  It turned 11.70s all
>day long.  It idled as smooth as a hoover vaccuum cleaner.
>Eventually, I replace the 350 shortblock with a 13:1 400
>shortblock, reusing the heads, cam & everything possible..
>I reduced the rear-end gear from 5.13 to 4.10 because I was
>nervous about turning the "strokey" short-rod 400 too hard.
>The first day out with the 400, it idled perfectly smooth at
>15 inches of vaccuum, and the car turned 10.80s....
>Almost a full second improvement over the 350..
>Even with the gear reduction, the car left the starting
>line much harder than before.  A hard throttle stab
>from a fast idle would pick the front tires up almost
>a foot.  The car was a small Vega with a 3 link suspension
>and 14 inch wide slicks, so traction was usually available.
>If I could have EFI'd this thing, I'm sure it would've been
>faster and cleaner.  Even with a carb, I considered
>getting a tailpipe emmisions test done, but never found
>the time.  The engine stayed in the car until two years
>later, when I sold everything..
>The 400 is really impressive as long as you keep the
>RPMs low (below 6,000?)..  That includes the burnout.
>Despite my persistent warnings about hi RPM death,
>the rookie that bought my car liked the sounds of 8,000
>RPM in the burnout area, and put a rod through the
>oil pan his first day at the track..
>Good luck, I bet the 400 TPI combo will be fun..
>Mike V
>



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MO[D"02$74DN20 at 6YL#H<8/^0 at 9'6QK at NT!>@25200D1%_;SB)GE4;I1*T0"0
M`F U@/^BV1>A;)"@,I!1F[M5-+F3_QV1G0)^L4R at 25 =<'#Q3+![D=9,`7:B
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MTD(#D$4_8<%VF< ?0O BT5&APB97!CXQ-?^0`1%P!Y%LT<-5+M!/<ZA%/[\F
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MTO_6:,YCS1-M at J@81D!=H;"4_T'!27&1UDUAI%%LDM2"WW/_`Y$I@$FQI*)]
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`
end



From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 17 18:42:20 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:42:20 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32285.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Piccioni <mpiccioni at attcanada.net>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 1:35 PM
Subject: RE: GM TPI in the 400 SBC


>Any idea's where to get this book?

Some years ago I got my from Jegs (800) 345-4545
Bruce
>
>
>----------
>From: Mark Romans[SMTP:romans at pacbell.net]
>Sent: January 18, 1999 11:04 AM
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
>
>TPIS's book, insider hints, on page 17 shows a chart with a 383 w/airflow
>research heads, big mouth intake ported plenum, 58mm throttle body and
>modified maf using for comparison purposes the stock runners, slp cast,
>lingenfelter cast, tpis extruded and tpis siamesed runners.  Obviously the
>stock runners at 1.470 diameter id were down from the others oh hp and but
>torque was similar but at 700 to 1000 lower rpm band.  With the stock
>runners it made 469.6 ft lbs at 3750 rpm's and 390 hp at 5750. The biggest
>jump was to the siamesed runners (Which are no longer made by tpis) at
462ft
>lbs at 4250 (Actually down) and 427.7 hp at 5750 rpms.  So the stock
runners
>are not that much of a limitation.  The whole thing works as a system.
>
>I would recommend that anyone wanting to do any playing with a tpi system
>buy the tpis book.  They have exhaustive flow tests on every component
>documented in this book.
>
>A 406 with a tpi ought to be a really fun combination.
>
>Mark
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ECMnut at aol.com <ECMnut at aol.com>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 6:36 AM
>Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
>
>
>>Skip this post if you could care less about 400 SBCs
>>or drag racing..
>>
>>With such a low RPM torque peak, some conservative
>>rear-end gears (3.55-4.10) will probably work well.
>>Peter mentioned traction linitations in a previous post.
>>I couldn't agree more.  IF you can keep it connected
>>to the pavement, the car should provide big fun..
>>The 400 SBC makes lots of torque without such a
>>TPI intake amplifying the issue.  With the stock runners,
>>it should REALLY make torque by 3,500 RPM.
>>Some years back, I had a 2700 lb bracket car with
>>a 350 SBC, 5.13 gears decent heads, very mild hydraulic
>> cam and a box-stock 750 Holley.  It turned 11.70s all
>>day long.  It idled as smooth as a hoover vaccuum cleaner.
>>Eventually, I replace the 350 shortblock with a 13:1 400
>>shortblock, reusing the heads, cam & everything possible..
>>I reduced the rear-end gear from 5.13 to 4.10 because I was
>>nervous about turning the "strokey" short-rod 400 too hard.
>>The first day out with the 400, it idled perfectly smooth at
>>15 inches of vaccuum, and the car turned 10.80s....
>>Almost a full second improvement over the 350..
>>Even with the gear reduction, the car left the starting
>>line much harder than before.  A hard throttle stab
>>from a fast idle would pick the front tires up almost
>>a foot.  The car was a small Vega with a 3 link suspension
>>and 14 inch wide slicks, so traction was usually available.
>>If I could have EFI'd this thing, I'm sure it would've been
>>faster and cleaner.  Even with a carb, I considered
>>getting a tailpipe emmisions test done, but never found
>>the time.  The engine stayed in the car until two years
>>later, when I sold everything..
>>The 400 is really impressive as long as you keep the
>>RPMs low (below 6,000?)..  That includes the burnout.
>>Despite my persistent warnings about hi RPM death,
>>the rookie that bought my car liked the sounds of 8,000
>>RPM in the burnout area, and put a rod through the
>>oil pan his first day at the track..
>>Good luck, I bet the 400 TPI combo will be fun..
>>Mike V
>>
>
>
>
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan 17 19:00:10 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:00:10 -0500
Subject: Pingin'
Message-ID: <mailman.32286.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>With coming into a '85 turbo EXP (w/ a turbo leaking oil into the intake side)
>the car had EXTREMELY bad detonation.  When I repaired the turbo (stopped the
>oil leak) the detonation went away (and all that blue smoke :) ).  I've heard
>that oil in the air/fuel mixture causes detonation and I'd like to know why?
>Any intelligent answers out there??
>
>Thanks....

Motor oil is generally pretty low octane stuff, and also high cetane,
whichever way you care to talk about it. It is an effective, if not good
diesel fuel, it likes to auto-ignite. A motor oil leak into the turbo
compressor on a (some are turbocharged) GMC two stroke diesel can cause it
to overspeed to destruction---

Regards, Greg




From romans at pacbell.net  Sun Jan 17 19:05:08 1999
From: romans at pacbell.net (Mark Romans)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:05:08 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32287.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Call TPIS at 612-448-6021 or look at their web page at...
http://www.tpis.com/

Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Piccioni <mpiccioni at attcanada.net>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 10:23 AM
Subject: RE: GM TPI in the 400 SBC


>Any idea's where to get this book?
>
>
>----------
>From: Mark Romans[SMTP:romans at pacbell.net]
>Sent: January 18, 1999 11:04 AM
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
>
>TPIS's book, insider hints, on page 17 shows a chart with a 383 w/airflow
>research heads, big mouth intake ported plenum, 58mm throttle body and
>modified maf using for comparison purposes the stock runners, slp cast,
>lingenfelter cast, tpis extruded and tpis siamesed runners.  Obviously the
>stock runners at 1.470 diameter id were down from the others oh hp and but
>torque was similar but at 700 to 1000 lower rpm band.  With the stock
>runners it made 469.6 ft lbs at 3750 rpm's and 390 hp at 5750. The biggest
>jump was to the siamesed runners (Which are no longer made by tpis) at
462ft
>lbs at 4250 (Actually down) and 427.7 hp at 5750 rpms.  So the stock
runners
>are not that much of a limitation.  The whole thing works as a system.
>
>I would recommend that anyone wanting to do any playing with a tpi system
>buy the tpis book.  They have exhaustive flow tests on every component
>documented in this book.
>
>A 406 with a tpi ought to be a really fun combination.
>
>Mark
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ECMnut at aol.com <ECMnut at aol.com>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 6:36 AM
>Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
>
>
>>Skip this post if you could care less about 400 SBCs
>>or drag racing..
>>
>>With such a low RPM torque peak, some conservative
>>rear-end gears (3.55-4.10) will probably work well.
>>Peter mentioned traction linitations in a previous post.
>>I couldn't agree more.  IF you can keep it connected
>>to the pavement, the car should provide big fun..
>>The 400 SBC makes lots of torque without such a
>>TPI intake amplifying the issue.  With the stock runners,
>>it should REALLY make torque by 3,500 RPM.
>>Some years back, I had a 2700 lb bracket car with
>>a 350 SBC, 5.13 gears decent heads, very mild hydraulic
>> cam and a box-stock 750 Holley.  It turned 11.70s all
>>day long.  It idled as smooth as a hoover vaccuum cleaner.
>>Eventually, I replace the 350 shortblock with a 13:1 400
>>shortblock, reusing the heads, cam & everything possible..
>>I reduced the rear-end gear from 5.13 to 4.10 because I was
>>nervous about turning the "strokey" short-rod 400 too hard.
>>The first day out with the 400, it idled perfectly smooth at
>>15 inches of vaccuum, and the car turned 10.80s....
>>Almost a full second improvement over the 350..
>>Even with the gear reduction, the car left the starting
>>line much harder than before.  A hard throttle stab
>>from a fast idle would pick the front tires up almost
>>a foot.  The car was a small Vega with a 3 link suspension
>>and 14 inch wide slicks, so traction was usually available.
>>If I could have EFI'd this thing, I'm sure it would've been
>>faster and cleaner.  Even with a carb, I considered
>>getting a tailpipe emmisions test done, but never found
>>the time.  The engine stayed in the car until two years
>>later, when I sold everything..
>>The 400 is really impressive as long as you keep the
>>RPMs low (below 6,000?)..  That includes the burnout.
>>Despite my persistent warnings about hi RPM death,
>>the rookie that bought my car liked the sounds of 8,000
>>RPM in the burnout area, and put a rod through the
>>oil pan his first day at the track..
>>Good luck, I bet the 400 TPI combo will be fun..
>>Mike V
>>
>
>
>
>



From tgordon at saginaw-city.k12.mi.us  Sun Jan 17 19:34:15 1999
From: tgordon at saginaw-city.k12.mi.us (Anthony Gordon)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:34:15 -0500
Subject: Air Volume Calculation
Message-ID: <mailman.32288.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I have a Triuph mechanical injection system on a 72 TR6.  Using a O2 sensor
helps tune the system, but it would a lot easier to tune if I could
eliminate the 6 separate throttle butterflies in the throttle bodies which
causes great synchronization problems.  

The engine is a 2498cc unit, and produces max BHP at 5300 rpm.  Is there a
calculation for the optimal area/size of a single throttle body that I
could use?  I am hoping that I can re-use a throttle body from a junk yard
so suggestions on type as well would also be most helpful.

TIA

Tony Gordon




From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 17 19:37:04 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:37:04 -0500
Subject: 24000 ppm VSS?
Message-ID: <mailman.32289.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ludis Langens <ludis at cruzers.com>
To: Diy_efi <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 12:16 AM
Subject: 24000 ppm VSS?


>I've come across a PROM which appears to expect a 24000 pulse-per-mile
>VSS.  Its the ANAM1667 used in the 1227748 ECM.  This PROM configures a
>VSS interface chip to perform an extra "divide-by-6".  Other PROMs for
>this ECM set it to "divide-by-1" mode.  The ANAM PROM also has an extra
>factor of six in the VSS to vehicle speed calculation code (which gets
>the VSS signal before the hardware divide).
>
>Could this PROM be for a reluctor type VSS?  I should have kept track of
>what type of car it came out of.

It's out of a 88 2.5L Vin R application. TSB P0233  
That all I got on it
Cheers
Bruce
>
>-- 
>Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
>Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/
>
>



From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Sun Jan 17 19:44:33 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:44:33 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32290.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Mark Romans wrote:

> Call TPIS at 612-448-6021 or look at their web page at...
> http://www.tpis.com/

> >TPIS's book, insider hints, on page 17 shows a chart with a 383 w/airflow
> >research heads, big mouth intake ported plenum, 58mm throttle body and

Actually, I'm just starting to make paper templates for my
Chrysler 383 for a sheet-metal intake, and will be using TPI
off a 1992 or 1993 Camaro, forget which year.  I managed to
get a good deal at the local boneyard for the ECM, wiring
harness from firewall to engine, all sensors, and the actual
TPI runners/manifold, plenum.  They want the manifold,
runners & plenum back, which is part of the deal, however
its of no use to me anyway, since I have a Chrysler.

THe www.tpis.com website is a great resource!

-- 
Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

http://www.xephic.dynip.com
1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)


From btisdale at cybersol.com  Sun Jan 17 19:46:59 1999
From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:46:59 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....
Message-ID: <mailman.32291.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce -

Thanks for the detailed explanation; I get the picture now, and agree w/ what you said.  Think I'll drop the TCC lockup, as this vehicle's my daily transportation, not a race machine.

As an afterthought, how about interrupting the ignition circuit, i.e., killing the engine for maybe 50msec, whilst the TCC's locking up?  Might be pretty hard to time accurately, but the clutch would essentially lock under no active engine load; there'd still be the inertia of the converter and a speed mismatch between the engine crankshaft & trans input shaft, but should be a lot easier on all components involved.  Probably not worth the effort ITO lower ETs, but would ease the situation, even w/ the factory applied lockup in 4th gear.

Just a thought - thanks again - Barry


From quest100 at gte.net  Sun Jan 17 20:20:29 1999
From: quest100 at gte.net (Fran and Bud)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:20:29 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32292.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>From TPIS! Couple of books available.  They are at www.tpis.com
Bud
----------
>From: Marc Piccioni <mpiccioni at attcanada.net>
>To: "'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Subject: RE: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
>Date: Sun, Jan 17, 1999, 6:07 PM
>

>Any idea's where to get this book?
>
>
>----------
>From:  Mark Romans[SMTP:romans at pacbell.net]
>Sent:  January 18, 1999 11:04 AM
>To:  diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject:  Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
>
>TPIS's book, insider hints, on page 17 shows a chart with a 383 w/airflow
>research heads, big mouth intake ported plenum, 58mm throttle body and
>modified maf using for comparison purposes the stock runners, slp cast,
>lingenfelter cast, tpis extruded and tpis siamesed runners.  Obviously the
>stock runners at 1.470 diameter id were down from the others oh hp and but
>torque was similar but at 700 to 1000 lower rpm band.  With the stock
>runners it made 469.6 ft lbs at 3750 rpm's and 390 hp at 5750. The biggest
>jump was to the siamesed runners (Which are no longer made by tpis) at 462ft
>lbs at 4250 (Actually down) and 427.7 hp at 5750 rpms.  So the stock runners
>are not that much of a limitation.  The whole thing works as a system.
>
>I would recommend that anyone wanting to do any playing with a tpi system
>buy the tpis book.  They have exhaustive flow tests on every component
>documented in this book.
>
>A 406 with a tpi ought to be a really fun combination.
>
>Mark
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ECMnut at aol.com <ECMnut at aol.com>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 6:36 AM
>Subject: Re: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
>
>
>>Skip this post if you could care less about 400 SBCs
>>or drag racing..
>>
>>With such a low RPM torque peak, some conservative
>>rear-end gears (3.55-4.10) will probably work well.
>>Peter mentioned traction linitations in a previous post.
>>I couldn't agree more.  IF you can keep it connected
>>to the pavement, the car should provide big fun..
>>The 400 SBC makes lots of torque without such a
>>TPI intake amplifying the issue.  With the stock runners,
>>it should REALLY make torque by 3,500 RPM.
>>Some years back, I had a 2700 lb bracket car with
>>a 350 SBC, 5.13 gears decent heads, very mild hydraulic
>> cam and a box-stock 750 Holley.  It turned 11.70s all
>>day long.  It idled as smooth as a hoover vaccuum cleaner.
>>Eventually, I replace the 350 shortblock with a 13:1 400
>>shortblock, reusing the heads, cam & everything possible..
>>I reduced the rear-end gear from 5.13 to 4.10 because I was
>>nervous about turning the "strokey" short-rod 400 too hard.
>>The first day out with the 400, it idled perfectly smooth at
>>15 inches of vaccuum, and the car turned 10.80s....
>>Almost a full second improvement over the 350..
>>Even with the gear reduction, the car left the starting
>>line much harder than before.  A hard throttle stab
>>from a fast idle would pick the front tires up almost
>>a foot.  The car was a small Vega with a 3 link suspension
>>and 14 inch wide slicks, so traction was usually available.
>>If I could have EFI'd this thing, I'm sure it would've been
>>faster and cleaner.  Even with a carb, I considered
>>getting a tailpipe emmisions test done, but never found
>>the time.  The engine stayed in the car until two years
>>later, when I sold everything..
>>The 400 is really impressive as long as you keep the
>>RPMs low (below 6,000?)..  That includes the burnout.
>>Despite my persistent warnings about hi RPM death,
>>the rookie that bought my car liked the sounds of 8,000
>>RPM in the burnout area, and put a rod through the
>>oil pan his first day at the track..
>>Good luck, I bet the 400 TPI combo will be fun..
>>Mike V
>>
>
>


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 17 20:22:49 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:22:49 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....  New Car Classification/Name
Message-ID: <mailman.32293.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions.....


>Bruce -
>
>Thanks for the detailed explanation; I get the picture now, and agree w/
what you said.  Think I'll drop the TCC lockup, as this vehicle's my daily
transportation, not a race machine.
>
>As an afterthought, how about interrupting the ignition circuit, i.e.,
killing the engine for maybe 50msec, whilst the TCC's locking up?

Piece of cake if your working with a ecm that controls tranny
functions, oh, thata be a PCM, gee they do that already, hmmm.
Rumor has it thou they reduce timing rather than interupt
the actual ignition firing.
Bruce          Well Doc has named my Firebird,, since it's not Pro
                    Stock, or Pro Street, or Pro Cruise, and as nutty
                    the ecm project has gotten, it's called  Pro Zac



snip
 >Just a thought - thanks again - Barry
>



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sun Jan 17 20:42:09 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:42:09 -0500
Subject: Pingin'
Message-ID: <mailman.32294.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> >With coming into a '85 turbo EXP (w/ a turbo leaking oil into the intake side)
> >the car had EXTREMELY bad detonation.  When I repaired the turbo (stopped the
> >oil leak) the detonation went away (and all that blue smoke :) ).  I've heard
> >that oil in the air/fuel mixture causes detonation and I'd like to know why?
> >Any intelligent answers out there??
> >
> >Thanks....
> 
> Motor oil is generally pretty low octane stuff, and also high cetane,
> whichever way you care to talk about it. It is an effective, if not good
> diesel fuel, it likes to auto-ignite. A motor oil leak into the turbo
> compressor on a (some are turbocharged) GMC two stroke diesel can cause it
> to overspeed to destruction---
> 
> Regards, Greg
As will a holed piston on ANY diesel without an air throttle.


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sun Jan 17 20:48:10 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:48:10 -0500
Subject: Air Volume Calculation
Message-ID: <mailman.32295.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Anthony Gordon wrote:
> 
> I have a Triuph mechanical injection system on a 72 TR6.  Using a O2 sensor
> helps tune the system, but it would a lot easier to tune if I could
> eliminate the 6 separate throttle butterflies in the throttle bodies which
> causes great synchronization problems.
> 
> The engine is a 2498cc unit, and produces max BHP at 5300 rpm.  Is there a
> calculation for the optimal area/size of a single throttle body that I
> could use?  I am hoping that I can re-use a throttle body from a junk yard
> so suggestions on type as well would also be most helpful.
> 
> TIA
> 
> Tony Gordon
I am assuming roughly 3 litres displacement? Try a throttle body from a
3 litre to 4 litre engine - possibly a Ford V6


From ECMnut at aol.com  Sun Jan 17 21:21:42 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:21:42 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....  New Car Classification/Name
Message-ID: <mailman.32296.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/17/99 3:25:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp at bright.net
writes:

> >
>  >As an afterthought, how about interrupting the ignition circuit, i.e.,
>  killing the engine for maybe 50msec, whilst the TCC's locking up?
>  
>  Piece of cake if your working with a ecm that controls tranny
>  functions, oh, thata be a PCM, gee they do that already, hmmm.
>  Rumor has it thou they reduce timing rather than interupt
>  the actual ignition firing.

I hadn't though of that.  As a rev limiter, the factory SyTys 
kill the fuel at 4700 RPM, then turn it back on after it
drops by about 200 rpm...   This makes for sort of a 
mechanical bull imitation, and since it is still under 
significant boost, it is usually accompanied by detonation 
too...   I guess you'd have problems if you cut the ignition
instead...  The exhaust would fill with fuel/air mix...
Not good when the fire returns to the engine...
Mike V


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Sun Jan 17 21:22:17 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:22:17 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32297.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

ECMnut at aol.com wrote:

> The 400 is really impressive as long as you keep the
> RPMs low (below 6,000?)..  That includes the burnout.
> Despite my persistent warnings about hi RPM death,
> the rookie that bought my car liked the sounds of 8,000
> RPM in the burnout area, and put a rod through the
> oil pan his first day at the track..

The stock car boys go 8000+ by replacing the block, crank, rods and
pistons. My stock block and crank uses 6" eagle rods ($320) and KB
pistons and is good for 7500 rpm but the EFI won't go past 6000 because
the injectors are too small. Be sure to get good heads, etc. if you want
power at 7000+.  Nuff said  Tom



From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 17 21:52:09 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:52:09 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32298.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Frederic Breitwieser <frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: 555 EFI


>> OK, I found a diagram for a summing amp, but is uses a dual polarity
>> power source, anyone got a clue for how to do a summing amp with
>> just +5v power supply?.  Or can it be done with a single?.
>
>Easy... I've done this before... however certain op-amps,
>with JFET inputs tend to lose some consistancy in their
>amplifications or inverting... the LM324 and the 741 and
>741C do just fine.
>
>Put a 1k resistor between +V and the "virtual ground" and a
>1k resistor between -V (real ground) and the "virtual
>ground".  Then, you have a split power supply for Op-Amps. 
>This works very well, and I've done this many, many times
>for little amplifier projects where the pre-amp stage needed
>to have a split powersupply, and I  didn't want to run two
>9V batteries, just one.  Can you picture it, or should I do
>a quickie GIF tomorrow?

I think I got it.  Will be trying stuff Mon/Tues so I'll holler if
it gets too smokey here.
Bruce              As nutty as the ecm stuff has gotten,  Doc and
                        Grumpy have renamed the Firebird  Pro Zac
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Frederic Breitwieser
>Bridgeport, CT 06606
>
>http://www.xephic.dynip.com
>1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
>1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
>1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
>2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)
>



From Galadar at worldnet.att.net  Sun Jan 17 21:57:33 1999
From: Galadar at worldnet.att.net (Jon Fedock)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:57:33 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32299.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello Group,
    I am FAR from an EE, but maybe a good start for 555 timing might  be
from a frequency-type MAF sensor? I know this kinda leads to port injection
because of the plumbing nightmares involved in TBI and a MAF, but .......
just an idea.
Jon Fedock



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sun Jan 17 21:58:46 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:58:46 -0500
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32300.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Have you looked at these? 
Here's the name of the system and the Summit P/N
Crane Cams Three Stage Retard Control	CRN-9000-0009

MSD Fixed Curve Timing Computer		MSD-8980
MSD Programmable Timing Computer	MSD-8981
MSD Adjustable Timing Control		MSD-8680
MSD Multi-step Retard Control		MSD-8972

All of them are pretty basic, no frills, timing control units
with varying methods and amount of control. I'd be pretty surprised
if one of these wouldn't work for your application.

Good Luck,

Charles BRooks




Somebody wrote:
> >Hmmmm after looking in the WWW for ages I have been unable to locate
> >such a unit devoid of other frills or compromises (e.g. just turbo or
> >Nitrous Oxide retard which really is quite different from what I need).


From wsherwin at idirect.com  Sun Jan 17 22:12:05 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:12:05 -0500
Subject: Air Volume Calculation
Message-ID: <mailman.32301.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

A really rough rule of thumb for a single monoblade wide open throttle
airflow rate is 140 cfm (@ 1.5"Hg pressure drop)  per square inch of open
throttle area (total bore area minus the throttle shaft cross-sectional
area).    Greatly oversized monoblades can reduce the pressure drop loss,
but they can also introduce tip-in control and part throttle driveability
problems.  Sometimes you can fabricate/attach a decreasing radius linkage to
mechanically "slow" the initial monoblade rotation with respect to
accelerator pedal travel if the later issue is a problem.

Have Fun;
Walt.



-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Gordon <tgordon at saginaw-city.k12.mi.us>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 12:12 PM
Subject: Air Volume Calculation


>I have a Triuph mechanical injection system on a 72 TR6.  Using a O2 sensor
>helps tune the system, but it would a lot easier to tune if I could
>eliminate the 6 separate throttle butterflies in the throttle bodies which
>causes great synchronization problems.
>
>The engine is a 2498cc unit, and produces max BHP at 5300 rpm.  Is there a
>calculation for the optimal area/size of a single throttle body that I
>could use?  I am hoping that I can re-use a throttle body from a junk yard
>so suggestions on type as well would also be most helpful.
>
>TIA
>
>Tony Gordon
>
>



From romans at pacbell.net  Sun Jan 17 22:33:57 1999
From: romans at pacbell.net (Mark Romans)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:33:57 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....
Message-ID: <mailman.32302.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Do what GM does (As well as others) and retard the timing when the trans
shifts and when the tcc locks.  GM calls it torque management.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: TCC switch & questions.....


>Bruce -
>
>Thanks for the detailed explanation; I get the picture now, and agree w/
what you said.  Think I'll drop the TCC lockup, as this vehicle's my daily
transportation, not a race machine.
>
>As an afterthought, how about interrupting the ignition circuit, i.e.,
killing the engine for maybe 50msec, whilst the TCC's locking up?  Might be
pretty hard to time accurately, but the clutch would essentially lock under
no active engine load; there'd still be the inertia of the converter and a
speed mismatch between the engine crankshaft & trans input shaft, but should
be a lot easier on all components involved.  Probably not worth the effort
ITO lower ETs, but would ease the situation, even w/ the factory applied
lockup in 4th gear.
>
>Just a thought - thanks again - Barry
>



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sun Jan 17 22:41:51 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:41:51 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32303.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Can someone tell me about the DFI batchfire setup? I just saw one
advertised and I'd like to get a little more info. 

Thanks,

Charles Brooks


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sun Jan 17 23:51:32 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:51:32 -0500
Subject: DIY_EFI FTP directory
Message-ID: <mailman.32304.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Does anyone have a description of the files in the FTP
directory? I don't really want to down load each file
just to see what it is  :)

Charles Brooks


From AL8001 at aol.com  Mon Jan 18 00:14:03 1999
From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:14:03 -0500
Subject: 24000 ppm VSS?
Message-ID: <mailman.32305.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 99-01-17 00:06:34 EST, ludis at cruzers.com writes:

>I've come across a PROM which appears to expect a 24000 pulse-per-mile
>VSS.  Its the ANAM1667 used in the 1227748 ECM.  This PROM configures a
>VSS interface chip to perform an extra "divide-by-6".  Other PROMs for
>this ECM set it to "divide-by-1" mode.  The ANAM PROM also has an extra
>factor of six in the VSS to vehicle speed calculation code (which gets
>the VSS signal before the hardware divide).
>
>Could this PROM be for a reluctor type VSS?  I should have kept track of
>what type of car it came out of.

This could be a prom for somthing equiped with anti lock brakes.   Some of the
Chevy trucks with rear wheel only anti lock, use the speedo sensor to feed the
anti lock and the ECM / speedo.  ( Instead of a seperate sensor located on the
rear axel houseing.)

Harold


From thormj at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 18 00:15:04 1999
From: thormj at earthlink.net (Thor Johnson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:15:04 -0500
Subject: Schematic symbol for zero crossing detector
Message-ID: <mailman.32306.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Is there a standard symbol for this?  It could be drawn/built with two
> comparators but the input would need lots of resistor biasing because
> there is no negative power supply.

If ya need a circuit for this, how 'bout using the output of a full wave 
rectifier?  

-Thor Johnson
thormj at iname.com



From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Mon Jan 18 01:21:24 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:21:24 -0500
Subject: Pingin'
Message-ID: <mailman.32307.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hmmm.... is that why they recommend that you put some motor oil into the
gasoline if you intend to run a multifuel (or diesel) engine on gasoline?

I remember that the Army "deuce-and-a-half" 2 1/2 ton 6x6 truck had a
multifuel engine.  Someone said that it has a throttle plate, but I never
actually got into one of them.

Ray


On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:00:05 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
>>With coming into a '85 turbo EXP (w/ a turbo leaking oil into the 
>intake side)
>>the car had EXTREMELY bad detonation.  When I repaired the turbo
(stopped the
>>oil leak) the detonation went away (and all that blue smoke :) ).  I've
heard
>>that oil in the air/fuel mixture causes detonation and I'd like to know
why?
>>Any intelligent answers out there??
>>
>>Thanks....
>
>Motor oil is generally pretty low octane stuff, and also high cetane,
>whichever way you care to talk about it. It is an effective, if not good
>diesel fuel, it likes to auto-ignite. A motor oil leak into the turbo
>compressor on a (some are turbocharged) GMC two stroke diesel can cause
it
>to overspeed to destruction---
>
>Regards, Greg

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From alaint at cgocable.ca  Mon Jan 18 03:47:26 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:47:26 -0500
Subject: Air Volume Calculation
Message-ID: <mailman.32308.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> I am assuming roughly 3 litres displacement? Try a throttle body from a
> 3 litre to 4 litre engine - possibly a Ford V6

umm....2498cc == 2.5 liters,so in this case it would lack a lot of low end
torque if you took a trottle body from a 4 liters engine,try a trottle
body from a BMW with the 2.7 engine (particularly the eta engine,they max
out at 5300rpm,so it would be a good size,later 2.5 engine trottle body
can be used too).

Alain

Windows 9x: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for  a 16 bit patch
to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for  a 4 bit microprocessor,
written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition.



From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 18 04:15:35 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:15:35 -0500
Subject: Pingin'
Message-ID: <mailman.32309.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hmmm.... is that why they recommend that you put some motor oil into the
>gasoline if you intend to run a multifuel (or diesel) engine on gasoline?
>
>I remember that the Army "deuce-and-a-half" 2 1/2 ton 6x6 truck had a
>multifuel engine.  Someone said that it has a throttle plate, but I never
>actually got into one of them.
>
>Ray
>
First thought is that it would keep the injector pump a whole lot
happier--but it darn sure would raise the cetane rating of the gasoline
too!!

Speaking of multi fuel motors--lemme mention the old Scout 800 short cab I
used to have, with a 196 cid four, with the (supposedly) export only
pistons and head--6.5 : 1 compression, but a REALLY sweet combustion
chamber design--guess it was designed to run on Pemex' (Mexico's) worst!!
It's favorite fuel mixture was  70% #2 diesel/ 30% unleaded regular. Ran
like STINK on it!! (Kinda always made me wonder how much boost it wouldda
stood----!! (On decent fuel!)

Regards, Greg




From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Mon Jan 18 06:38:49 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:38:49 -0500
Subject: Uploaded BIN to FTP
Message-ID: <mailman.32310.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ross Myers <ponty at axis.jeack.com.au>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 5:24 PM
>Subject: Re: Uploaded BIN to FTP
>
>Ross I sent you a copy of it last night
>Bruce


But I uploaded it!!!.

Someones lost here.

Ross Myers



From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jan 18 06:53:39 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:53:39 -0500
Subject: Chyrsler injector head
Message-ID: <mailman.32311.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This link describes features of engine. 
http://www.media.chrysler.com/wwwprkt/25aa.htm
wide spray in head injectors that shoot only when valve open.
28% power increase when using coil on plug ignition.
dual thermostat pulsed cooling system.
block and cylinder mods.
alex 


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jan 18 06:54:06 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:54:06 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32312.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Okay, who's gonna be the first one to say it would be easiear to skip all
> the op-amps and use a PIC and some code?  ;) 
> 
8 pin , 5 ch A/D, EEPROM, built in oscillator and power supply.
Put one and a MAP on each cyl.
alex  


From joelsmama at tpgi.com.au  Mon Jan 18 12:13:12 1999
From: joelsmama at tpgi.com.au (Niki Albury)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 07:13:12 -0500
Subject: Totaly off Track from EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32313.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

hi guys

Sorry about getting off track from EFI....but still using the same
devices that some of you guys use.......PIC chips....  Now I know that
they are very nice little chips but how do i make them do what i want
them to do????  If any of you guys have played with UHF/VHF radio then
you would prob know about repeater ID's.  For those who dont ( and are
intersted ) they simply give out an ID every 8 - 10 mins and after each
transmission will give out a little BEEP to indicate the TX is over and
the last little item is a TIME OUT Timmer, after 3 or so mins the radio
will time out and reset the timmer ......simple eh!!

so the info I need is:


* which PIC chip would I need ?

* how do I make it do the timming for the ID & time out

* can i make the PIC put out an audio BEEP????

the ID out put is to be a single shot to control a Voice chip for the ID
& if the PIC can not control the BEEP it also is to be a single shot.

well if any one can help .........please do!!

Justin

again ........sorry about off topic!!!




From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Mon Jan 18 12:55:17 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 07:55:17 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32314.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

You mentioned a program to crack the GM prom for tpi for about $150. I'm
interested, do you have any more info?  Does it work on 90,91 MAP
systems?

>----------
>From: 	Bruce Plecan[SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
>Reply To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Sent: 	Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:09 PM
>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: GM TPI tips for a newbie
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
>To: DIY_EFI Fuel Injection List <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 6:40 PM
>Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
>
>Your options, are dictated only by what you want to spend or learn.
>If you have money, and just want to get something running as mentioned
>a laptop programable ecm is an option.  If you have a laptop, and $695 to
>$3,000.  If you want to learn, and crack the ecm program $150.
>You want to use the oem ecm but forgo all the "cracking"  The Turbo Shop
>has programs for "burning" chips.  Mechanically there isn't much difference
>from what you have to a 89, but ecm/MAF wise there is a difference.
>You could go to the 90-92 ecm, and go MAP.  Best thing is reading the
>archives, and figure what works best for you.   Might read some about
>Programming 101, if your starting at ground zero and really want to learn
>something.
>Cheers+Welcome
>Bruce
>
>>Hi all, I joined the list to gain more info on EFI operations
>>and maybe a little knowledge, If I don't get lost too quickly!
>>
>>I have a 1987 Monte Carlo SS as a pet project. I recently
>>installed a built 406 and I've been contemplating an EFI swap.
>>Well, I stumbled onto a TPI setup from a 1985 5.0 Camaro and
>>contemplation time seems to be over :)
>>
>>The 406 flows A WHOLE LOT MORE AIR than the 5.0 so I know I
>>need to use larger injectors. My guess was 28-32 Lb units but
>>I'm not sure. I've spoken with a few places about a custom
>>chip for the ECM but everyone seems to carry "Off the Shelf"
>>chips instead of doing any custom work. I'm unsure of my
>>options at this point.
>>
>>Charles
>>
>
>


From rbraun at mail.enter.net  Mon Jan 18 13:14:53 1999
From: rbraun at mail.enter.net (Randy)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:14:53 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32315.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

1. replaces the stock ecm, not pin for pin, rewiring is needed.
2. does not use VATS
3. does not control EGR
4. knock retard is not progammable, timing is fully programmable.
5. does not use MAF, can be setup for speed density or alfa-n.
6. will not use Diacom, calmap is its own program, allows you to 
view or change anything.  No real diagnostics, (codes).
7.ECM alone is about $550 with wires and sensors kit is about 
$800
8. rev limit via fuel cutoff is programmable.
9. timing, fuel, idle speed, enrichment (TPS and MAP), cold 
enrich (aka choke), NOS control, fan on temp, these are all fully 
programmable. 
10. NOS control can be used for TH400 kickdown, I did 
this on my '77 truck. set by RPM and TPS %
11. TCC is controled only by RPM and MAP has no speed input.


If you need to pass some sort of emmission test on the EGR this 
system is not reccomended by me.
Both of my systems are the older spark/fuel management ECM's, 
Accel does have a newer ECM that can do SFI. over a grand as I 
recall.
Accel does make a piggyback system, I know nothing about that 
one.

I hope this helps, any more questions?

Later,




> Can someone tell me about the DFI batchfire setup? I just saw one
> advertised and I'd like to get a little more info. 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Charles Brooks
> 


Randy Braun
'77 C-10 pick-up, DFI-Tuned Port, 350, for Sale
'89 K2500 C6P stock
'82 Firebird, DFI, ZZ3
'91 GTA, Stock


From chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca  Mon Jan 18 13:23:22 1999
From: chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca (Wen Yen Chan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:23:22 -0500
Subject: Ignition coil inductance?
Message-ID: <mailman.32316.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello,

Most Honda coils are a couple millihenrys on the primary side and a couple
henries on the secondary.

Wen

On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Don Holtz wrote:

> Hello!
> 
> I am working on a device for testing ECM functionality.  When completed it
> will be able to measure a variety of ECM parameters like injector duty, etc.
> 
> Can anyone guess at what a good "typical" primary-side ignition coil
> inductance value might be?  A range of value would be good.
> 
> I need to know this because my tester is essentialy simulating engine
> function while taking measurements.  So, I also need to simulate the
> ignition circuitry too.
> 
> I hope this makes some sense.
> 
> Cheers,
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



From jason_rauch at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 18 13:52:25 1999
From: jason_rauch at hotmail.com (Jason Rauch)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:52:25 -0500
Subject: Is this DFI(Chyrsler injector head)
Message-ID: <mailman.32317.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello,
This link describes what I belive to be direct fuel injection, anyone 
heard of this? It is just a injector spraying fuel right into the 
cylinder bore, but I thought it needed special components to work with a 
very high fuel pressure and wasn't oem bound for quite some time.

www.media.chrysler.com/wwwprkt/25aa.htm

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From MBuckham at softwright.co.uk  Mon Jan 18 13:58:54 1999
From: MBuckham at softwright.co.uk (Mike Buckham)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:58:54 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32318.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>----------
>From: 	bearbvd at sni.net[SMTP:bearbvd at sni.net]
>Reply To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Sent: 	16 January 1999 01:13
>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: Haltech E6GM
>
>>I did a little reading through the archives and came across a post
>>which mentioned that one drawback to the E6GM was that the RPM
>>increments were 1000RPM as opposed to 500RPM in another system.
>>
>>Can someone explain the difference in operation and the effect on
>>programming as well as driveablity?
>>
>>TIA,
>>
>>Charles Brooks
>
>Your fuel and timing maps are basically a matrix of (engine) load vs.
>speed, with fuel/advance values at each point on the chart. Either MAF or
>MAP is used as the load indicator, RPM as the speed indicator. Having
>mapped points every 500 RPM (with respect to speed) results in twice as
>many points on each chart as having them every 1000 RPM would. This leads
>to more accurate tuning. On the best systems, RPM increments and load
>increments are user selectable, and do not necessarily have to be evenly
>spaced (for instance, you could choose to lay your RPM increments out so
>that each higher one was an equal percentage greater than the one below!!)
>
>Take a look at the web sites for MoTeC and/or Autronics if you want to get
>a good idea of what programming options are available on higher end units.

http:\\www.motec.com
http:\\www.autronics.com
>
>Also, there was a thread a few weeks ago talking about the effect of the
>minimum increment in injector pulse width of which a given ecu is capable
>of incrementing, and the effect of that factor on a tuner's ability to get
>an engine to idle in a civilized manner--particularly if using a big cam
>and/or injectors. IMHO, a unit with a minimum pw increment of more than 16
>us --preferably 8 or 10 us (us, not ms) is not worth a #$@% for a
>STREETABLE hypo application. Check this out carefully before you buy!!
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>
>


From pford at qnx.com  Mon Jan 18 13:59:07 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:59:07 -0500
Subject: DIS Integration
Message-ID: <mailman.32319.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 Tedscj at aol.com wrote:

> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:11:54 EST
> From: Tedscj at aol.com
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: DIS Integration
> 
> In a message dated 1/16/99 8:56:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp at bright.net
> writes:
> 
> << s the following correct?.
>  
>  There are three Buick v-6 DIS setups
>  
>  1.   85-87  RWD  that uses a crank sensor, and a cam posistion 
>  sensor that would go where the distributor would normally.
>  
>  2.   FWD using a crank sensor, and then the cam sensor is in the
>  timing chain cover (meaning there are two separate sensors).
>  
>  3.  FWD where both the crank, and synch sensors are located 
>  on the crankshaft pulley.
>  Thanks
>  Bruce
>   >>
> 
> Well, I converted my car to DIS.  My DIS came from the FWD 2.8 and 3.1 V6's
> from about '87 to '91 (maybe later) J-bodies.  But I don't think it was used
> on any Buicks.
> It utilizes ONE sensor reading off the crankshaft from about it's center (the
> sensor goes in to the center of the block).  There are 7 pulses.  1 every 60
> degrees (TDC, TDC+ 60, TDC+120, etc.) plus 1 additional at 10 degrees after
> TDC for the sync.
> I just welded some bolt heads on to the edge of one of my pulleys in the
> appropriate places and then created a bracket for the sensor and it worked.
> Again, there is only ONE sensor that transmits ALL pulses PLUS the sync pulse.
> 
> HTH
> Ted
>

how are you handling advance? I'm trying to pin the cavaler (sp??) dis 
module on my Landrover ( getting rid of the @#$!$# lucas stuff) and the 
engine is down abit in the advance with just the dis built in adv. 

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 18 14:35:22 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:35:22 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32320.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Guenther,Max <Mguenther at ASCO.COM>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 8:11 AM
Subject: RE: GM TPI tips for a newbie

You misreread what I said,  If you want to learn, and crack the ecm program,
about $150  which is different from a program to crack the ecm program
for $150.  First one, envolves learning.....
Cheers
Bruce

snip

>You mentioned a program to crack the GM prom for tpi for about $150. I'm
>interested, do you have any more info?  Does it work on 90,91 MAP
>systems?
  If you want to learn, and crack the ecm program $150.
>>You want to use the oem ecm but forgo all the "cracking"  The Turbo Shop
>>has programs for "burning" chips.  Mechanically there isn't much
difference
>>from what you have to a 89, but ecm/MAF wise there is a difference.
>>You could go to the 90-92 ecm, and go MAP.  Best thing is reading the
>>archives, and figure what works best for you.   Might read some about
>>Programming 101, if your starting at ground zero and really want to learn
>>something.
>>Cheers+Welcome
>>Bruce
snip>



From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 18 15:03:25 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:03:25 -0500
Subject: DIS Integration
Message-ID: <mailman.32321.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>
>how are you handling advance? I'm trying to pin the cavaler (sp??) dis 
>module on my Landrover ( getting rid of the @#$!$# lucas stuff) and the 
>engine is down abit in the advance with just the dis built in adv. 
>
>Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
>QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
>(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
>(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8
>



From rauscher at icst.com  Mon Jan 18 15:06:21 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:06:21 -0500
Subject: Astro ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.32322.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Was wondering if someone could help. I was at the
'U-pull-it' this weekend getting the final parts
for my EFI system.

Looking for a spare '747 ECM, I pulled from an
Astro van an ECM that wasn't what I expected.
I didn't get the year on the Astro van.


I don't remember the number too well, but it was
something like:

    124x136 The 'x' being a number.


It had the same form factor as a '747, so I pulled
the PROM cover. It had a masked ROM in the holder,
along with the resister pack, just like the '747.
I put the cover back and left it there, as I found
a true '747.


Is this possibly an updated version of the '747?
Should I have gotten it? What was it?


BobR.


--




From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Mon Jan 18 15:08:02 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:08:02 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32323.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Yeah, that helps. Sounds like a decent system. I saw it advertised
for 500 bucks and included the ECM and software. I want to use
a sequential system when I do the TPI swap though. 

Thanks again,

Charles Brooks

Randy wrote:
> 
> 1. replaces the stock ecm, not pin for pin, rewiring is needed.
> 2. does not use VATS
> 3. does not control EGR
> 4. knock retard is not progammable, timing is fully programmable.
> 5. does not use MAF, can be setup for speed density or alfa-n.
> 6. will not use Diacom, calmap is its own program, allows you to
> view or change anything.  No real diagnostics, (codes).
> 7.ECM alone is about $550 with wires and sensors kit is about
> $800
> 8. rev limit via fuel cutoff is programmable.
> 9. timing, fuel, idle speed, enrichment (TPS and MAP), cold
> enrich (aka choke), NOS control, fan on temp, these are all fully
> programmable.
> 10. NOS control can be used for TH400 kickdown, I did
> this on my '77 truck. set by RPM and TPS %
> 11. TCC is controled only by RPM and MAP has no speed input.
> 
> If you need to pass some sort of emmission test on the EGR this
> system is not reccomended by me.
> Both of my systems are the older spark/fuel management ECM's,
> Accel does have a newer ECM that can do SFI. over a grand as I
> recall.
> Accel does make a piggyback system, I know nothing about that
> one.
> 
> I hope this helps, any more questions?
>


From MBuckham at softwright.co.uk  Mon Jan 18 15:09:16 1999
From: MBuckham at softwright.co.uk (Mike Buckham)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:09:16 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32324.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Oops - I meant to forward this to someone, not reply. Sorry all.

>----------
>From: 	Mike Buckham
>Reply To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Sent: 	18 January 1999 13:59
>To: 	'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'
>Subject: 	RE: Haltech E6GM
>
>
>
>>----------
>>From: 	bearbvd at sni.net[SMTP:bearbvd at sni.net]
>>Reply To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>>Sent: 	16 January 1999 01:13
>>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>>Subject: 	Re: Haltech E6GM
>>
>>>I did a little reading through the archives and came across a post
>>>which mentioned that one drawback to the E6GM was that the RPM
>>>increments were 1000RPM as opposed to 500RPM in another system.
>>>
>>>Can someone explain the difference in operation and the effect on
>>>programming as well as driveablity?
>>>
>>>TIA,
>>>
>>>Charles Brooks
>>
>>Your fuel and timing maps are basically a matrix of (engine) load vs.
>>speed, with fuel/advance values at each point on the chart. Either MAF or
>>MAP is used as the load indicator, RPM as the speed indicator. Having
>>mapped points every 500 RPM (with respect to speed) results in twice as
>>many points on each chart as having them every 1000 RPM would. This leads
>>to more accurate tuning. On the best systems, RPM increments and load
>>increments are user selectable, and do not necessarily have to be evenly
>>spaced (for instance, you could choose to lay your RPM increments out so
>>that each higher one was an equal percentage greater than the one below!!)
>>
>>Take a look at the web sites for MoTeC and/or Autronics if you want to get
>>a good idea of what programming options are available on higher end units.
>
>http:\\www.motec.com
>http:\\www.autronics.com
>>
>>Also, there was a thread a few weeks ago talking about the effect of the
>>minimum increment in injector pulse width of which a given ecu is capable
>>of incrementing, and the effect of that factor on a tuner's ability to get
>>an engine to idle in a civilized manner--particularly if using a big cam
>>and/or injectors. IMHO, a unit with a minimum pw increment of more than 16
>>us --preferably 8 or 10 us (us, not ms) is not worth a #$@% for a
>>STREETABLE hypo application. Check this out carefully before you buy!!
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>
>>
>


From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 18 15:12:30 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:12:30 -0500
Subject: Malfunction Flag Q      DIS enhancement
Message-ID: <mailman.32325.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If someone wanted to use an ecm as a just a timing control
for a DIS, would just wiring up the ignition module, and 
disabling all the malfunction flags allow the ecm to do that,
with out it being in limp home mode?..
  Of course the power, and grounds for the ecm would be 
hooked up.
  Would using resistors of fixed values be necessary for
like TPS/MAP?..   or best to use them for CTS/IAT etc.?.
  Cheers
Bruce
  



From rauscher at icst.com  Mon Jan 18 15:27:24 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:27:24 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32326.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Ya know' thinking about this, it just may work. Trigger the
555 from the distributor, divided by whatever to fire the
injectors the number of times per rev.

Drive pin 5 (labeled 'control voltage' in the NS data book), from
a summing junction that has as input:

    change in TPS (open more, short duration)
    RPM
    MAP
    CTS

The only real downside, would be the VE. You would need to build
a non-linear function into the RPM/MAP areas.

If kept simple, just as a way of running a system, it might be
worth it. Maybe as a trunk 'backup system' for when the real
ECM dies too far from home?


BobR.


P.S. Bruce, for the TPS, no level shifting required. Just tie
one end of the TPS to +5v, the other end to +3.33v, Wha-la...

(get the 3.33v from a LM317 adj volt reg, or a resister divider).

--




From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 18 15:28:06 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:28:06 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32327.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: DFI info

Why SEFI?.  From what I've read other than a slight improvement in idle,
light cruise emissions there doesn't seem to be any real gains with it.
Bruce


>Yeah, that helps. Sounds like a decent system. I saw it advertised
>for 500 bucks and included the ECM and software. I want to use
>a sequential system when I do the TPI swap though.
>
>Thanks again,
>
>Charles Brooks
>
>Randy wrote:
>>
>> 1. replaces the stock ecm, not pin for pin, rewiring is needed.
>> 2. does not use VATS
>> 3. does not control EGR
>> 4. knock retard is not progammable, timing is fully programmable.
>> 5. does not use MAF, can be setup for speed density or alfa-n.
>> 6. will not use Diacom, calmap is its own program, allows you to
>> view or change anything.  No real diagnostics, (codes).
>> 7.ECM alone is about $550 with wires and sensors kit is about
>> $800
>> 8. rev limit via fuel cutoff is programmable.
>> 9. timing, fuel, idle speed, enrichment (TPS and MAP), cold
>> enrich (aka choke), NOS control, fan on temp, these are all fully
>> programmable.
>> 10. NOS control can be used for TH400 kickdown, I did
>> this on my '77 truck. set by RPM and TPS %
>> 11. TCC is controled only by RPM and MAP has no speed input.
>>
>> If you need to pass some sort of emmission test on the EGR this
>> system is not reccomended by me.
>> Both of my systems are the older spark/fuel management ECM's,
>> Accel does have a newer ECM that can do SFI. over a grand as I
>> recall.
>> Accel does make a piggyback system, I know nothing about that
>> one.
>>
>> I hope this helps, any more questions?
>>
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 18 15:33:36 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:33:36 -0500
Subject: Astro ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.32328.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: rauscher at icst.com <rauscher at icst.com>
To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 10:22 AM
Subject: Astro ECM

Those numbers don't make sense  1224xxx is from like 80/81..
Bruce


>
>
>Was wondering if someone could help. I was at the
>'U-pull-it' this weekend getting the final parts
>for my EFI system.
>
>Looking for a spare '747 ECM, I pulled from an
>Astro van an ECM that wasn't what I expected.
>I didn't get the year on the Astro van.
>
>
>I don't remember the number too well, but it was
>something like:
>
>    124x136 The 'x' being a number.
>
>
>It had the same form factor as a '747, so I pulled
>the PROM cover. It had a masked ROM in the holder,
>along with the resister pack, just like the '747.
>I put the cover back and left it there, as I found
>a true '747.
>
>
>Is this possibly an updated version of the '747?
>Should I have gotten it? What was it?
>
>
>BobR.
>
>
>--
>
>



From gderian at cybergate.net  Mon Jan 18 15:40:37 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:40:37 -0500
Subject: Is this DFI(Chyrsler injector head)
Message-ID: <mailman.32329.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Cylinder head - yes, combustion chamber - no.  An injector can be mounted in
the head and squirt into the intake port.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Rauch <jason_rauch at hotmail.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 8:57 AM
Subject: Is this DFI(Chyrsler injector head)


>Hello,
>This link describes what I belive to be direct fuel injection, anyone
>heard of this? It is just a injector spraying fuel right into the
>cylinder bore, but I thought it needed special components to work with a
>very high fuel pressure and wasn't oem bound for quite some time.
>
>www.media.chrysler.com/wwwprkt/25aa.htm
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



From spoonie at deltanet.com  Mon Jan 18 16:09:32 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:09:32 -0500
Subject: Astro ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.32330.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

There are only tow possible "122xxxx" ECM's in Astro's, the 1227747 and
1228062.
1227747 in Astro's 87 - 90
1228062 in Astro's 88 - 91

The 1227747 is more popular in standard duty (GVWW lt 8500 lbs) 5.0l & 5.7l
equipped C/K trucks, 86 - 92.

The 1227747 is calibration template type $42
the 1228062 is calibration template type $4E

Both types have the same hardware but different firmware and thus different
calibration lay outs.

Ward

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of
> rauscher at icst.com
> Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 7:02 AM
> To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Astro ECM
>
>
>
>
> Was wondering if someone could help. I was at the
> 'U-pull-it' this weekend getting the final parts
> for my EFI system.
>
> Looking for a spare '747 ECM, I pulled from an
> Astro van an ECM that wasn't what I expected.
> I didn't get the year on the Astro van.
>
>
> I don't remember the number too well, but it was
> something like:
>
>     124x136 The 'x' being a number.
>
>
> It had the same form factor as a '747, so I pulled
> the PROM cover. It had a masked ROM in the holder,
> along with the resister pack, just like the '747.
> I put the cover back and left it there, as I found
> a true '747.
>
>
> Is this possibly an updated version of the '747?
> Should I have gotten it? What was it?
>
>
> BobR.
>
>
> --
>
>



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Mon Jan 18 16:17:48 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:17:48 -0500
Subject: DIY_EFI FTP directory
Message-ID: <mailman.32331.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've begun putting one together.  There's a link on the main WWW page
called "ftp site index" or something like that.

People have been pretty good about notifying the list when they upload,
so if you're curious about a particular file try searching the archives
for the filename.

--steve

Charles Brooks wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have a description of the files in the FTP
> directory? I don't really want to down load each file
> just to see what it is  :)
> 
> Charles Brooks


From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Mon Jan 18 16:19:52 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:19:52 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32332.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The proms are programed in a large group of numbers and addresses in
hex.  I have no idea which values go with which function or how the maps
are arranged.  I have been looking for books on the subject but have not
found any which go any further than "try buying a performance prom".  
Any guidence would be appreciated. especially for a 90-91 MAP TPI
Thanks,
Max
>----------
>From: 	Bruce Plecan[SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
>Reply To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Sent: 	Monday, January 18, 1999 9:38 AM
>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: GM TPI tips for a newbie
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Guenther,Max <Mguenther at ASCO.COM>
>To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 8:11 AM
>Subject: RE: GM TPI tips for a newbie
>
>You misreread what I said,  If you want to learn, and crack the ecm program,
>about $150  which is different from a program to crack the ecm program
>for $150.  First one, envolves learning.....
>Cheers
>Bruce
>
>snip
>
>>You mentioned a program to crack the GM prom for tpi for about $150. I'm
>>interested, do you have any more info?  Does it work on 90,91 MAP
>>systems?
>  If you want to learn, and crack the ecm program $150.
>>>You want to use the oem ecm but forgo all the "cracking"  The Turbo Shop
>>>has programs for "burning" chips.  Mechanically there isn't much
>difference
>>>from what you have to a 89, but ecm/MAF wise there is a difference.
>>>You could go to the 90-92 ecm, and go MAP.  Best thing is reading the
>>>archives, and figure what works best for you.   Might read some about
>>>Programming 101, if your starting at ground zero and really want to learn
>>>something.
>>>Cheers+Welcome
>>>Bruce
>snip>
>
>


From southpaw at magiclink.com  Mon Jan 18 16:28:50 1999
From: southpaw at magiclink.com (Marti)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:28:50 -0500
Subject: 96 ford powerstroke
Message-ID: <mailman.32333.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

jq wrote:
> 
> anyone have a solution for a
> problem with a rough idle?
> Ford has no idea!
> 
> also, has anyone found a good
> performance chip?

I had a similar problem, also loss of smoothness and power at hard
throttle only when fully warm.  I was about to try playing with
modifying the oil temp signal to the ECU (the PS uses oil temp, not
coolant to set parameters) but sold the truck before I got around to it.

I have also heard that oil foaming (since engine oil at high pressure is
what actuates the injectors) is the culprit.

Don't have the URL any longer but search for 'Jason's Powerstroke Web
Page'.  This is a very well put together message board, and includes
tech tips.

Mike Jones


From amattei at mindspring.com  Mon Jan 18 16:29:43 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:29:43 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32334.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

"Guenther,Max" wrote:
> 
> The proms are programed in a large group of numbers and addresses in
> hex.  I have no idea which values go with which function or how the maps
> are arranged.  I have been looking for books on the subject but have not
> found any which go any further than "try buying a performance prom".

Well, allow me to jump in. I've been doing this for, oh, about week now
(yup, I'm a newbie too). What I found helpful was to go all over the
DIY-EFI web site - the archives, the Incoming FTP files, **Programming
101**, Tuning Tips, Ludis' info, downloaded 90% of the files in the ftp
incoming section, playing with Promedit (with gnuplot), Promgrammer
(from the syty.org site), GMER, many of the .bin files from the ftp,
etc... Just getting my feet wet. No, I'm no expert, but everyone's gotta
start somewhere, right? So far, I haven't found the "instant revelation"
page, but I think the info's all there, just takes some time for
assimilation...

Dig, dig, dig...

-Andrew


From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 18 16:34:56 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:34:56 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32335.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Guenther,Max <Mguenther at ASCO.COM>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 11:33 AM
Subject: RE: GM TPI tips for a newbie


>The proms are programed in a large group of numbers and addresses in
>hex.  I have no idea which values go with which function or how the maps
>are arranged.  I have been looking for books on the subject but have not
>found any which go any further than "try buying a performance prom".
>Any guidence would be appreciated. especially for a 90-91 MAP TPI
>Thanks,
>Max
>>----------
>>From: Bruce Plecan[SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
>>Reply To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>>Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 9:38 AM
>>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>>Subject: Re: GM TPI tips for a newbie
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Guenther,Max <Mguenther at ASCO.COM>
>>To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'
<diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>>Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 8:11 AM
>>Subject: RE: GM TPI tips for a newbie
>>
>>You misreread what I said,  If you want to learn, and crack the ecm
program,
>>about $150  which is different from a program to crack the ecm program
>>for $150.  First one, envolves learning.....
>>Cheers
>>Bruce
>>
>>snip
>>
>>>You mentioned a program to crack the GM prom for tpi for about $150. I'm
>>>interested, do you have any more info?  Does it work on 90,91 MAP
>>>systems?
>>  If you want to learn, and crack the ecm program $150.
>>>>You want to use the oem ecm but forgo all the "cracking"  The Turbo Shop
>>>>has programs for "burning" chips.  Mechanically there isn't much
>>difference
>>>>from what you have to a 89, but ecm/MAF wise there is a difference.
>>>>You could go to the 90-92 ecm, and go MAP.  Best thing is reading the
>>>>archives, and figure what works best for you.   Might read some about
>>>>Programming 101, if your starting at ground zero and really want to
learn
>>>>something.
>>>>Cheers+Welcome
>>>>Bruce
>>snip>
>>
>>
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 18 16:41:43 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:41:43 -0500
Subject: GM TPI tips for a newbie
Message-ID: <mailman.32336.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Guenther,Max <Mguenther at ASCO.COM>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 11:33 AM
Subject: RE: GM TPI tips for a newbie

Yes, they are.  If you look in the archives, for programming 101+808, they
show/explain the basics of trying to read a prom.  Also, search Delcoedit.
If you want to spend $15 at syty, there is Promgramming 98 which is a
fully disassembled 128K prom.  If you hunt in the archives, with in the
last several weeks I posted how to run the syty program in a 730.  That 
is a 2 bar MAP program, but will work in a distributor'd MAP gm application
using a 1227730 ecm.  Rather than just saying 90 MAP TPI, it would be
alot more meaningful to say what ecm, at least to me.
Bruce


>The proms are programed in a large group of numbers and addresses in
>hex.  I have no idea which values go with which function or how the maps
>are arranged.  I have been looking for books on the subject but have not
>found any which go any further than "try buying a performance prom".  
>Any guidence would be appreciated. especially for a 90-91 MAP TPI
>Thanks,
>Max




From eschumacher at ieeinc.com  Mon Jan 18 17:56:48 1999
From: eschumacher at ieeinc.com (Erick Schumacher)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:56:48 -0500
Subject: Photo Radar (non EFI)
Message-ID: <mailman.32337.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

 Hi MarcThe 3M louver film that might be suitable for obscuring your
licence plate  from side viewing is manufactured by 3M.  Their Part Number
is LCF-P ABR2-0-AG60  and sells for  $54.37 for a  12x10 sheet.  This
particular partnumber is for a anti glare surface and a hard coating to
make it more durable.  Raw stuff is about 15 % cheaper.  3M customer
Service  1800 328 7098

>Reply-To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>
>Got a 3M P/N for the stuff?
>/Marc
>
>- Marc Piccioni ---------
>From: 	Eric Schumacher[SMTP:e.schumacher at worldnet.att.net]
>Sent: 	January 6, 1999 11:08 PM
>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: Photo Radar
>
>3M makes some stuff they call Louver Film. It comes in a sheet (.062 or
>,032 thick) and built like a venitian blind, so restricts the viewing

Lotsa Luck Eric
85 GTI with VR6 Power


From A70Duster at aol.com  Mon Jan 18 18:01:58 1999
From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:01:58 -0500
Subject: Chyrsler injector head
Message-ID: <mailman.32338.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Quote from the page..

"Coil-on plug ignition provides individual, high-energy secondary coils which
are connected directly to each spark plug, providing more than a 28 percent
power increase over the former direct ignition system (DIS). "

Is that a 28% power increase of the engine or the ignition system.  I place my
bet on the ignition system.

See ya,

Mike


From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 18 18:05:32 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:05:32 -0500
Subject: Bin to ECM ID
Message-ID: <mailman.32339.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

A   BHDF   is used in a 95 "N" truck, anyone able to match this
to the ecm?.    ie 95 "N" truck used two ecms
Bruce



From rgregory at syty.org  Mon Jan 18 18:05:33 1999
From: rgregory at syty.org (Ron Gregory)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:05:33 -0500
Subject: Volvo FI help request
Message-ID: <mailman.32340.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I have a buddy with a FI Volvo (either '84 or '85), that is
acting up.  It will start fine, but about 30 seconds later,
it will start to pump black smoke everywhere...big-time rich.
He pulled plugs and they are wet and black...

He's replaced about everything I can think of...
air sensor, IAC(or whatever Volvo calls it),
fp regulator, temp sensor, O2 sensor,  etc.
He wasn't too sure how to test any of those
sensors, so he's just been using the 
"I'll swap it to see if it gets better" method
of auto repair

He hasn't touched the ECM, injectors, 
ignition module, or distributor.

Is there any sort of data stream coming out of the
ECM that we may be able to watch to get clues?
Will that ECM blink codes (a la Delco ECMs)?

Please respond directly.  I'm a digest subscriber, and I'm
sure most of the rest of the list couldn't care less...

Thanks,
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ron Gregory
rgregory at iname.com



From rauscher at icst.com  Mon Jan 18 18:22:23 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:22:23 -0500
Subject: Spark timing, '747
Message-ID: <mailman.32341.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>




In a previous post, Bruce mentioned:

>There is a spark adder, called main spark bias, which moves the
>entire table up or down in value.   So lets say your at 0 degrees
>advance with a spark bias of 10 degrees.   If you drop the spark
>bias to 0 then your initial timing of 0 becomes -10.   There are >some engines
that are fussy about the initial timing, and spark
>bias.
>Generally I find alot of engines like 6d initial, a spark bias of 6.
>Now just to really foul things up/and/or confuse them there is a >cold spark
bias.  Normally I have a fair amount there (15ish). 
>Then with the above 16-20d BTDC idle timing. 


>From what I know, for timing:

    Initial advance. This is the physical position of the
    distributor. Set this with timing light with bypass
    disconnected.

    Spark Adder (main spark bias). A location in the ECM mapping?
    Anyone know where this is?

    Cold spark bias. Again, mapping in the ECM?


This all pertains to the '747 ECM.


BobR.

--




From rauscher at icst.com  Mon Jan 18 18:40:42 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:40:42 -0500
Subject: Malfunction Flag Q      DIS enhancement
Message-ID: <mailman.32342.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



I've been wondering the same thing. I was going to try
it in the near future, but with a TBI/distrib system,
not a DIS. ('747 ECM). I'll just put everything in but
the throttle body, then see if I can drive it.

I don't really see why it shouldn't work...

BobR.



>If someone wanted to use an ecm as a just a timing control
>for a DIS, would just wiring up the ignition module, and 
>disabling all the malfunction flags allow the ecm to do that,
>with out it being in limp home mode?..
>  Of course the power, and grounds for the ecm would be 
>hooked up.
>  Would using resistors of fixed values be necessary for
>like TPS/MAP?..   or best to use them for CTS/IAT etc.?.
>  Cheers
>Bruce
>  

--




From jamesm at talarian.com  Mon Jan 18 18:48:56 1999
From: jamesm at talarian.com (James Montebello)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:48:56 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32343.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Ya know' thinking about this, it just may work. Trigger the
> 555 from the distributor, divided by whatever to fire the
> injectors the number of times per rev.

Congratulations.  You've just re-invented Bosch D-Jetronic. :-)




From Tedscj at aol.com  Mon Jan 18 18:50:30 1999
From: Tedscj at aol.com (Tedscj at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:50:30 -0500
Subject: DIS Integration
Message-ID: <mailman.32344.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/18/99 9:15:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, pford at qnx.com
writes:

<< how are you handling advance? I'm trying to pin the cavaler (sp??) dis 
 module on my Landrover ( getting rid of the @#$!$# lucas stuff) and the 
 engine is down abit in the advance with just the dis built in adv. 
  >>
I have installed the entire system on my car including computer ('7730), all
sensors, etc.  The computer is also controlling the fuel injection.
My original system was a bosch L-Jet.
The whole thing works pretty well, but I need to make some slight changes to
the fuel map.  However, I haven't bought a prom-burner-reader yet.  As long as
it stays in closed loop, every thing is fine.  When It goes into open loop, it
goes pretty rich (better than lean!) The BLM system only has 2 cells.  Idle
and Go!  This doesn't help the computer adjust to my fuel curve very well.

Ted


From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 18 18:56:44 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:56:44 -0500
Subject: Spark timing, '747
Message-ID: <mailman.32345.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: rauscher at icst.com <rauscher at icst.com>
Subject: Spark timing, '747
>In a previous post, Bruce mentioned:
>>There is a spark adder, called main spark bias, which moves the
>>entire table up or down in value.   So lets say your at 0 degrees
>>advance with a spark bias of 10 degrees.   If you drop the spark
>>bias to 0 then your initial timing of 0 becomes -10.   There are >some
engines
>that are fussy about the initial timing, and spark
>>bias.
>>Generally I find alot of engines like 6d initial, a spark bias of 6.
>>Now just to really foul things up/and/or confuse them there is a >cold
spark
>bias.  Normally I have a fair amount there (15ish).
>>Then with the above 16-20d BTDC idle timing.
>>From what I know, for timing:
>    Initial advance. This is the physical position of the
>    distributor. Set this with timing light with bypass
>    disconnected.
>
>    Spark Adder (main spark bias). A location in the ECM mapping?

Yes

>    Anyone know where this is?

yes,  0014, (warm engine)
>
>    Cold spark bias. Again, mapping in the ECM?

yes, 0015
>
>This all pertains to the '747 ECM.
So do my answers
Bruce
>BobR.




From rauscher at icst.com  Mon Jan 18 19:00:21 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:00:21 -0500
Subject: Astro ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.32346.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>From: "Ward Spoonemore" <spoonie at deltanet.com>
>
>There are only two possible "122xxxx" ECM's in Astro's, the
>1227747 and 1228062.
>
>1227747 in Astro's 87 - 90
>1228062 in Astro's 88 - 91
>

This is exactly what I thought, thats what threw me. The number
that I posted was from memory, but I looked at that ECM several
times, reading out the number. I found it installed in the stock
location, so I don't think that it was swapped by someone in the
yard.

The other thing, is that the number started as '124...', not the
usual '122...'. And it was the service number I read. I also walked
around the van checking the shape and emblems, it was an Astro van.

Weird.

Maybe I'll just go back and get it.


>The 1227747 is more popular in standard duty (GVWW lt 8500 lbs)
>5.0l & 5.7l equipped C/K trucks, 86 - 92.
>

Yep, these vans are where I've been getting the harness, sensors,
distrib, coil, ECM... for my swap. They are cheap and plentiful.
Heck, everything for a TBI swap is less than the price of a 
new carb.

>
>The 1227747 is calibration template type $42
>the 1228062 is calibration template type $4E
>
>Both types have the same hardware but different firmware and thus >different
calibration lay outs.
>

See this, new info. OK, how about these 'templates', have any
info on the calibration layouts? Anyplace I can go for info?


>
>Ward

BobR.   Who now has pencil and paper in his junkyard
        scouring toolbag.


--




From thergen at svn.net  Mon Jan 18 19:02:42 1999
From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:02:42 -0500
Subject: Chyrsler injector head
Message-ID: <mailman.32347.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

28% [spark, not engine???] power increase when using coil on plug
ignition.
Tom

On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 xxalexx at ix.netcom.com wrote:

> This link describes features of engine. 
> http://www.media.chrysler.com/wwwprkt/25aa.htm
> wide spray in head injectors that shoot only when valve open.
> 28% power increase when using coil on plug ignition.
> dual thermostat pulsed cooling system.
> block and cylinder mods.
> alex 
> 



From Teller.John at orbital.com  Mon Jan 18 19:20:15 1999
From: Teller.John at orbital.com (Teller.John at orbital.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:20:15 -0500
Subject: Volvo FI help request
Message-ID: <mailman.32348.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

My 91 Ranger did the same thing after a !@#$-head grease monkey managed to
fill the MAF sensor (Hot wire type) with oil while filling the crank case
(you have to see a 3.0L engine up close to understand how this can happen).
This caused the EEC to run the engine extremely rich, which produced loads
of black smoke...  Just a shot in the dark, as I don't know what sort of
system Volvo installs.

--- John





"Ron Gregory" <rgregory at syty.org> on 01/18/99 01:05:11 PM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To:      diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu                      
                                                              
 cc:      (bcc: John Teller/ORBVA)                            
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: Volvo FI help request                               
                                                              








I have a buddy with a FI Volvo (either '84 or '85), that is
acting up.  It will start fine, but about 30 seconds later,
it will start to pump black smoke everywhere...big-time rich.
He pulled plugs and they are wet and black...

He's replaced about everything I can think of...
air sensor, IAC(or whatever Volvo calls it),
fp regulator, temp sensor, O2 sensor,  etc.
He wasn't too sure how to test any of those
sensors, so he's just been using the
"I'll swap it to see if it gets better" method
of auto repair

He hasn't touched the ECM, injectors,
ignition module, or distributor.

Is there any sort of data stream coming out of the
ECM that we may be able to watch to get clues?
Will that ECM blink codes (a la Delco ECMs)?

Please respond directly.  I'm a digest subscriber, and I'm
sure most of the rest of the list couldn't care less...

Thanks,
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ron Gregory
rgregory at iname.com






From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 18 19:22:46 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:22:46 -0500
Subject: Astro ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.32349.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>See this, new info. OK, how about these 'templates', have any
>info on the calibration layouts? Anyplace I can go for info?

Programming 101 is just about the 747, and basic prom stuff.
>>
>>Ward
>
>BobR.   Who now has pencil and paper in his junkyard
>        scouring toolbag.
>
It's serious when ya have a staff 0f 7 tag along, and carry your
own prom book, and Hollander manual.
Bruce



From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 18 19:51:12 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:51:12 -0500
Subject: Chyrsler injector head
Message-ID: <mailman.32350.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Quote from the page..
>
>"Coil-on plug ignition provides individual, high-energy secondary coils which
>are connected directly to each spark plug, providing more than a 28 percent
>power increase over the former direct ignition system (DIS). "
>
>Is that a 28% power increase of the engine or the ignition system.  I place my
>bet on the ignition system.
>
>See ya,
>
>Mike

Marketing hype and love--Ain't they both grand???

Greg




From mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca  Mon Jan 18 20:15:04 1999
From: mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Matt Beaubien)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:15:04 -0500
Subject: ECU6 development help
Message-ID: <mailman.32351.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Al,

I'd like to congratulate you for being one of the very few people who have
actually managed to create a diy_efi system and live to tell about it on
the list ;-).

I think the best way to help development of your system is to have the
electronics and software readily available so it's easy for many people to
build and try out.  Seeing as how the s/w is available, that leaves the
h/w.  How much work would it be to use an off-the-shelf single board
computer with a small interface box to provide the same functionality? 
 This way, there's a much better chance of people assembling the parts
they need and getting it to actually work.  If there isn't much glue
circuitry needed between the SBC and engine, it could even be done without
a PCB, greatly simplifying things.

Looking a bit further out, would it be possible to port it to a PIC, or
are they not powerful enough?  A PIC could reduce the amount of support
circuitry and potentially lower construction costs.

As far as the current circuit goes, how hard would it be to convert the
injector driver to allow for multiport, batch-fired setup?  I will have a
1200cc Honda running in the "near future" with a Haltech system so I would
have the ability to compare the two systems.  I could even help out with
the programming, if it's still in BASIC ;-).

Good work.


Matt Beaubien
mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada



From fastski at excite.com  Mon Jan 18 20:17:54 1999
From: fastski at excite.com (fastski at excite.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:17:54 -0500
Subject: Water Injection Thread
Message-ID: <mailman.32352.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I think the closest ancestor to the Corvette (C5)is the 928 Porsche.  I
remember seeing parts from a number of them torn apart in the Powertrain
garage about the time they were doing the initial design work on the
Corvette powertain.




_______________________________________________________
Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/


From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 18 20:18:28 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:18:28 -0500
Subject: Volvo FI help request
Message-ID: <mailman.32353.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I have a buddy with a FI Volvo (either '84 or '85), that is
>acting up.  It will start fine, but about 30 seconds later,
>it will start to pump black smoke everywhere...big-time rich.
>He pulled plugs and they are wet and black...
>
>He's replaced about everything I can think of...
>air sensor, IAC(or whatever Volvo calls it),
>fp regulator, temp sensor, O2 sensor,  etc.
>He wasn't too sure how to test any of those
>sensors, so he's just been using the
>"I'll swap it to see if it gets better" method
>of auto repair
>
>He hasn't touched the ECM, injectors,
>ignition module, or distributor.
>
>Is there any sort of data stream coming out of the
>ECM that we may be able to watch to get clues?
>Will that ECM blink codes (a la Delco ECMs)?
>
>Please respond directly.  I'm a digest subscriber, and I'm
>sure most of the rest of the list couldn't care less...
>
>Thanks,
>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>Ron Gregory
>rgregory at iname.com

If it is not the coolant temp sensor (or the wiring to it) (this is what
has caused the described symptoms on every Volvo I have seen do this), try
nosing around to see whether something is causing the starting enrichment
injector to stay on all the time.

Regards, Greg




From mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca  Mon Jan 18 20:20:43 1999
From: mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Matt Beaubien)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:20:43 -0500
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32354.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> The next now is to disable the existing (horrible) centrifugal advance
> mechanism, which is easy.

Can you just not fix the centrifugal advance and use it with the Crane
(formerly Allison) unit?  That may be your easiest solution.

> My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ...
> "... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
> unit
> implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16
> sites.
> 4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
> degrees of detonation induced retard.
> 5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
> breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
> (already fitted in my car)...."

Did you check out the Accel 49340 timing computer?  I'm not sure it it's
compatible with your optical output but you can talk to them and find out.
More info can be found at www.mrgasket.com/accelnew.htm.

There's not provision for a detonation sensor.  They tend to be pretty
engine specific but there's a company called J&S that make such a device
(I don't know much about it).  

That's about it.


Matt Beaubien
mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
Edmonton, Alberta



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Mon Jan 18 20:30:48 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David Cooley)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:30:48 -0500
Subject: Volvo FI help request
Message-ID: <mailman.32355.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ron,
Those use a mechanical air flow sensor... the vane jams open and will make
it run pig rich.
It may be able to be cleaned, but it's doubtfull... All of them I have seen
have had to be replaced.
Take care,
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Gregory <rgregory at syty.org>
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 1:09 PM
Subject: Volvo FI help request


>I have a buddy with a FI Volvo (either '84 or '85), that is
>acting up.  It will start fine, but about 30 seconds later,
>it will start to pump black smoke everywhere...big-time rich.
>He pulled plugs and they are wet and black...
>
>He's replaced about everything I can think of...
>air sensor, IAC(or whatever Volvo calls it),
>fp regulator, temp sensor, O2 sensor,  etc.
>He wasn't too sure how to test any of those
>sensors, so he's just been using the
>"I'll swap it to see if it gets better" method
>of auto repair
>
>He hasn't touched the ECM, injectors,
>ignition module, or distributor.
>
>Is there any sort of data stream coming out of the
>ECM that we may be able to watch to get clues?
>Will that ECM blink codes (a la Delco ECMs)?
>
>Please respond directly.  I'm a digest subscriber, and I'm
>sure most of the rest of the list couldn't care less...
>
>Thanks,
>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>Ron Gregory
>rgregory at iname.com
>
>




From rauscher at icst.com  Mon Jan 18 20:49:27 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:49:27 -0500
Subject: Spark timing, '747
Message-ID: <mailman.32356.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Good answers seem to always bring more questions...

For some reason, I'll bet there's a location/value that defines a cold engine
vs. a warm engine?!

Probably not something that needs to be changed, but I just gotta ask.

While I'm asking, location 0017, right after the # of cyl, by just looking at
various
bin's, I get the feeling that this value is either a transmission type or
displacement
code? This one has been bothering me for some time.

BobR.

Thanks again.

Starting to feel like a kid at Christmas as a hint of warmth returns to the
garage.


>>    Spark Adder (main spark bias). A location in the ECM mapping?
>
>Yes
>
>>    Anyone know where this is?
>
>yes,  0014, (warm engine)
>>
>>    Cold spark bias. Again, mapping in the ECM?
>
>yes, 0015
>>
>>This all pertains to the '747 ECM.
>
>So do my answers
>Bruce
>>BobR.

--




From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 18 21:19:13 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:19:13 -0500
Subject: Spark timing, '747
Message-ID: <mailman.32357.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: rauscher at icst.com <rauscher at icst.com>
To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: Spark timing, '747
>
>Good answers seem to always bring more questions...
>For some reason, I'll bet there's a location/value that defines a cold
engine
>vs. a warm engine?!

Lots of temps., like for learn, closed loop, egr enable, TCC enable,
kinda like warm enough for what.
Bruce
>
>Probably not something that needs to be changed, but I just gotta ask.
>While I'm asking, location 0017, right after the # of cyl, by just looking
at
>various
>bin's, I get the feeling that this value is either a transmission type or
>displacement
>code? This one has been bothering me for some time.
>BobR.
>Thanks again.
>



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Mon Jan 18 21:56:39 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:56:39 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32358.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well, mostly because that's what was recommended to me. Can you point
me toward some literature that compares the two? I'd like to see an
unbiased comparison but I've been unable to dig one up. I assumed
(Along with the advice I was given) that going sequential reduced
fuel consumption and emissions while improving idle quality and
performance all by a good margin. Is this wrong, or exagerated?

Charles Brooks



Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 10:23 AM
> Subject: Re: DFI info
> 
> Why SEFI?.  From what I've read other than a slight improvement in idle,
> light cruise emissions there doesn't seem to be any real gains with it.
> Bruce
>


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Mon Jan 18 21:59:02 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:59:02 -0500
Subject: DIY_EFI FTP directory
Message-ID: <mailman.32359.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Uuhhh, I didn't think of searching the archives :)

Thanks will do,

Charles Brooks



steve ravet wrote:
> 
> I've begun putting one together.  There's a link on the main WWW page
> called "ftp site index" or something like that.
> 
> People have been pretty good about notifying the list when they upload,
> so if you're curious about a particular file try searching the archives
> for the filename.
>


From afgun at mongoose.dearborn.sgi.com  Mon Jan 18 22:05:39 1999
From: afgun at mongoose.dearborn.sgi.com (Andrew F. Gunnesch)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:05:39 -0500
Subject: Pingin'
Message-ID: <mailman.32360.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Jan 17, 11:52am, David A. Cooley wrote:
> Subject: Re: Pingin'
> At 11:27 AM 1/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >With coming into a '85 turbo EXP (w/ a turbo leaking oil into the intake
side)
> >the car had EXTREMELY bad detonation.  When I repaired the turbo (stopped
the
> >oil leak) the detonation went away (and all that blue smoke :) ).  I've
heard
> >that oil in the air/fuel mixture causes detonation and I'd like to know why?
> >Any intelligent answers out there??
>
> Oil is of an extremely low octane (if used for fuel).  when the engine
> starts sucking oil through the intake, it is mixed with the air fuel
> mixture effectively reducing it's octane rating.  Even though you may be
> running gas with a 93 rating, with enough oil you may be down to 80...
> Like mixing kerosene with your gas... it lowers the octane.

I had the exact same sort of problem...  inadvertently damaged an intake
valve stem seal.  Engine sucked lots of oil.  Bad knock sensor too, so it
sounded like I had a can of marbles shaking under the hood when I got on it.

Replaced the bad knock sensor and redid the valve stem seals and everything
is running great with the car now.


From life_speed at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 18 23:26:27 1999
From: life_speed at hotmail.com (life speed)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:26:27 -0500
Subject: Anyone try the Speed-Pro ECU?
Message-ID: <mailman.32361.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Folks,

I'm new to this list, but not to hotrodding.

I'm currently in the market for an ECU for my boat. I run a twin-turbo, 
intercooled 454 Chevy. Airresearch wastegates, Rajay turbos. It's an old 
Dunsmore motor.

I need better control of ignition timing and turbo boost. Down the road, 
I'll certainly add fuel injection.

So, what computers are best suited for the job, and most 
flexible/programmable? Some I've looked at are Haltech, Speed-Pro, 
Motec, and Electromotive.

One of the most important requirements, I think, would be ECU code 
stored in Flash so you could take advantage of future updates 
downloadable over serial cable.

Other features I would like:

Wide-band O2 sensor. (Is Speed-Pro the only one who offers this?) Yes, I 
know I can live without it, but why?

Control of two injectors per cylinder. Great for water injection, or 
high-octane race fuel under high boost conditions.

I would like some method of adjusting for pump gas/7psi boost or race 
fuel/15 psi boost conditions. It would be ideal if I could do this 
_without_ a laptop. This may be a matter of implementation. For example, 
I understand the Haltech unit has two mappable outputs, and you can 
trim-pot between the two to get a dashboard-adjustable dial to 
interpolate between the "Race" and "pump" boost maps. Any ideas?

Detonation sensor input. Again, not absolutely necessary, but why 
shouldn't I employ one?

Outputs for wastegate control. I think they all have this.

Crank trigger direct-ignition compatible. Probably a given.

The more modern the ECU, the further from obsolescence, and the longer 
the lifespan I should see from it. I would appreciate any info on 
internal hardware of the various ECU mfg's as well. It would be nice to 
know how much "horsepower" the little computers have. Could be a 
reasonable indication of their capabilities, as well.

Thanks in advance for the info.

-Lifespeed


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Mon Jan 18 23:33:00 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:33:00 -0500
Subject: Timing computer
Message-ID: <mailman.32362.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I just ran across this, if someone is interested give him a call.

Disclaimer: I DON'T KNOW THE GUY!

Charles Brooks


"Dan Bell
Averill Park, NY
phone #:518 674 3611 
E-Mail: Bell1862 at aol.com 

MSD 8980 Timing Computer NEW $50"


From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Tue Jan 19 00:23:14 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:23:14 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32363.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

When I was at a Research Lab we used a circuit to run the Dyno engines so I
know it works. I cant scan it but could fax it to
someone who could. The circuit triggers from dist pulses from the HEI module
REF lead to a cd4013 Flip/Flop and cd4538 Dual monostable. The Q output of
the 4013 goes to pin 2 of a 2 input And gate cd 4081. The Not Q goes to pin
5 of the 4081. Pins 1 and 6 of the 4081 are tied together and go to the Q
output of the 4538. The pulse width is controlled by a 100K pot and .1 mfd
cap on pin 2 of the 4538. Pins 4 and 3 of the 4081 go to power transistors
that fire the injectors. 10K resistors are in series with the base of the
transistors.  A Throttle position sensor can be used  in place of the 100K
pot and will vary the pulse width from  approx .5 to 10 Msec. If the TPS is
10K add resistors on each end of the pot to get 100K total. Place a switch
on the Bypass line of the HEI, open to start, Ground to run.  Now to the
part I haven't tested yet. A FORD MAP sensor outpus a frequency in relation
to the Vac present. Connect the output of the FORD MAP  to the HEI module
EST input. After the engine starts flip the switch to RUN and the FORD MAP
will output about 160 Hz to the HEI mod. This should advance the timing. As
you Rev the engine the Freq. will go down and  retard the timing. If you
want to add a coolant sensor and rather use a Voltage output MAP. Use a
Summing amp config on the input of the monostable and a VCO to control the
timing. Just my .02$ for a circuit that will run a engine for testing at a
junk yard or on a stand.

                                                            Don




> -----Original Message-----
> From:	AL8001 at aol.com [SMTP:AL8001 at aol.com]
> Sent:	Friday, January 15, 1999 8:45 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: 555 EFI
> 
> In a message dated 99-01-15 09:33:21 EST, nacelp at bright.net writes:
> 
> > I'm looking to keep this as much as an entry level thing, meaning
> >nothing but 555s, op-amps, and a final drive.  
> 
> Something like this would be great for testing junk yard engines or
> moveing a
> car that's a "work in progress" when the ECM and related parts are gone.
> 
> Harold


From alipper at cardozo.org  Tue Jan 19 00:44:27 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:44:27 -0500
Subject: ECU6 development help
Message-ID: <mailman.32364.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Good questions:
I originally had the system running on a Blue Earth Research micro-440e.
The problems I ran into were: 1) It didn't have enough memory because part
of it's address space was used for memory mapped components and 2) It
needed an external PC board with specialized hardware driver and input
filtering components.  It only takes another 5 or 6 chips (costing about
$35 total) and it becomes a self-contained ECU.  The interface board had
enough components on it that the proto-board version would have been far
easier to build (and have work reliably) if it were a PC board.  The design
can certainly be adapted to batch-fire injectors.

At the moment, we have a few people who are working on hardware
refinements, but still need someone who is a sharp 8051 programmer (esp.
someone who's familiar with the Phillips derivatives).  I think that if we
all work together, we should have an updated PC board layout ready to build
in a month or two.

			Al
Al Lipper
efi at cardozo.org


At 01:14 PM 1/18/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Al,
>
>I'd like to congratulate you for being one of the very few people who have
>actually managed to create a diy_efi system and live to tell about it on
>the list ;-).
>
>I think the best way to help development of your system is to have the
>electronics and software readily available so it's easy for many people to
>build and try out.  Seeing as how the s/w is available, that leaves the
>h/w.  How much work would it be to use an off-the-shelf single board
>computer with a small interface box to provide the same functionality? 
> This way, there's a much better chance of people assembling the parts
>they need and getting it to actually work.  If there isn't much glue
>circuitry needed between the SBC and engine, it could even be done without
>a PCB, greatly simplifying things.
>
>Looking a bit further out, would it be possible to port it to a PIC, or
>are they not powerful enough?  A PIC could reduce the amount of support
>circuitry and potentially lower construction costs.
>
>As far as the current circuit goes, how hard would it be to convert the
>injector driver to allow for multiport, batch-fired setup?  I will have a
>1200cc Honda running in the "near future" with a Haltech system so I would
>have the ability to compare the two systems.  I could even help out with
>the programming, if it's still in BASIC ;-).
>
>Good work.
>
>
>Matt Beaubien
>mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
>Edmonton, Alberta
>Canada
>



From aris at exmail.panafon.gr  Tue Jan 19 01:01:10 1999
From: aris at exmail.panafon.gr (HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:01:10 -0500
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32365.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce,
	I was overwhelmed by the response of these people as to where I
can look, and I will do so the moment I find a bit of time (dont forget
Christmas is over).
But to reply to your question, ideally I would like to find a ready made
unit, small enough to hide in the engine compartment (remember classic
car engine compartments must look "original").
In fact, going back to my electronics engineering years, I can "see"
what I am looking for in the form of a tiny 8751 based PCB with one
optical trigger input and a single transistor driver output emulating a
contact breaker. Add to this a converter to drive the 5 volts chip and
enough EMC protection and presto!!!
Concerning firmware, the necessary code (including watch dog functions
etc.) would easily be small enough to fit the on chip EPROM (or OTP). In
fact the whole thing would look strikingly similar to this "Injector
pulse width monitor" project I have been reading about the last few
weeks here!
Not withstanding my forthcoming search in the web, what I have come
across until now is either too big or too cumbersome or an overkill.

Best regards
Aris
 -----Original Message-----
From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 <aris at exmail.panafon.gr>
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 6:23 AM
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance


>The next now is to disable the existing (horrible) centrifugal advance
>mechanism, which is easy.
>However the 3rd is to then need to insert a digital programmable
>ignition advance / retard mapping unit between the optical interruptor
>output and the ignition unit.
>Hmmmm after looking in the WWW for ages I have been unable to locate
>such a unit devoid of other frills or compromises (e.g. just turbo or
>Nitrous Oxide retard which really is quite different from what I need).

Which means?.  You want someone to custom design something for
you?.  Your wanting to design your own?.  Or you need to adjust
what you want, to what's available.  Or dig further for answers.
Maybe use part of a oem ecm, for timing control.
Bruce
>
>My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ...
>"... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
>unit
>implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least
16
>sites.
>4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
>degrees of detonation induced retard.
>5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
>breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
>(already fitted in my car)...."
>Any ideas will be highly appreciated.
>Regards
>Aris




From ECMnut at aol.com  Tue Jan 19 01:05:11 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:05:11 -0500
Subject: Bin to ECM ID
Message-ID: <mailman.32366.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/18/99 1:08:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp at bright.net
writes:

> A   BHDF   is used in a 95 "N" truck, anyone able to match this
>  to the ecm?.    ie 95 "N" truck used two ecms
>  Bruce
too new fer my book...   What body is an "NB" truck?
Mike V


From arcstarter at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 19 01:19:30 1999
From: arcstarter at hotmail.com (Bill the arcstarter)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:19:30 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32367.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

rauscher at icst.com wrote:

>Ya know' thinking about this, it just may work. Trigger the
>555 from the distributor, divided by whatever to fire the
>injectors the number of times per rev.
>
>Drive pin 5 (labeled 'control voltage' in the NS data book), from
>a summing junction that has as input:
>
>    change in TPS (open more, short duration)
>    RPM
>    MAP
>    CTS
>
>The only real downside, would be the VE. You would need to build
>a non-linear function into the RPM/MAP areas.

That's the trick.  I think that the injection duration is a rather 
nonlinear function of all these variables.  Building an electronics pack 
to properly "stir" them together might be very challenging.  

Personally I'd go PIC/AVR with a multichannel A to D converter! :)

-Bill

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Tue Jan 19 01:56:56 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:56:56 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32368.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com wrote:
> 
> When I was at a Research Lab we used a circuit to run the Dyno engines so I
> know it works. I cant scan it but could fax it to
> someone who could. The circuit triggers from dist pulses from the HEI module
> REF lead to a cd4013 Flip/Flop and cd4538 Dual monostable. The Q output of
> the 4013 goes to pin 2 of a 2 input And gate cd 4081. The Not Q goes to pin
> 5 of the 4081. Pins 1 and 6 of the 4081 are tied together and go to the Q
> output of the 4538. The pulse width is controlled by a 100K pot and .1 mfd
> cap on pin 2 of the 4538. Pins 4 and 3 of the 4081 go to power transistors
> that fire the injectors. 10K resistors are in series with the base of the
> transistors.  A Throttle position sensor can be used  in place of the 100K
> pot and will vary the pulse width from  approx .5 to 10 Msec. If the TPS is
> 10K add resistors on each end of the pot to get 100K total. Place a switch
> on the Bypass line of the HEI, open to start, Ground to run.  Now to the
> part I haven't tested yet. A FORD MAP sensor outpus a frequency in relation
> to the Vac present. Connect the output of the FORD MAP  to the HEI module
> EST input. After the engine starts flip the switch to RUN and the FORD MAP
> will output about 160 Hz to the HEI mod. This should advance the timing. As
> you Rev the engine the Freq. will go down and  retard the timing. If you
> want to add a coolant sensor and rather use a Voltage output MAP. Use a
> Summing amp config on the input of the monostable and a VCO to control the
> timing. Just my .02$ for a circuit that will run a engine for testing at a
> junk yard or on a stand.
> 
>                                                             Don
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: AL8001 at aol.com [SMTP:AL8001 at aol.com]
> > Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:45 AM
> > To:   diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > Subject:      Re: 555 EFI
> >
> > In a message dated 99-01-15 09:33:21 EST, nacelp at bright.net writes:
> >
> > > I'm looking to keep this as much as an entry level thing, meaning
> > >nothing but 555s, op-amps, and a final drive.
> >
> > Something like this would be great for testing junk yard engines or
> > moveing a
> > car that's a "work in progress" when the ECM and related parts are gone.
> >
> > Harold
I'm intersted, and I have a scanner if you want to fax it to me drop me
a line off list and I'll give you my fax line #.


From trinity at golden.net  Tue Jan 19 02:15:56 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:15:56 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32369.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>rauscher at icst.com wrote:
>
>>Ya know' thinking about this, it just may work. Trigger the
>>555 from the distributor, divided by whatever to fire the
>>injectors the number of times per rev.
>>
>>Drive pin 5 (labeled 'control voltage' in the NS data book), from
>>a summing junction that has as input:
>>
>>    change in TPS (open more, short duration)
>>    RPM
>>    MAP
>>    CTS
>>
>>The only real downside, would be the VE. You would need to build
>>a non-linear function into the RPM/MAP areas.
>
>That's the trick.  I think that the injection duration is a rather 
>nonlinear function of all these variables.  Building an electronics pack 
>to properly "stir" them together might be very challenging.  
>
>Personally I'd go PIC/AVR with a multichannel A to D converter! :)
>

Was thinking the same thing. PIC16C672...8-pin DIP (or SO SMT pack),
4-channel A/D converter, interrupt on delta if memory serves. Pretty capable
part in a tiny package.


--
 Mike



From trinity at golden.net  Tue Jan 19 02:24:53 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:24:53 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32370.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>
>>Personally I'd go PIC/AVR with a multichannel A to D converter! :)
>>
>
>Was thinking the same thing. PIC16C672...8-pin DIP (or SO SMT pack),
4-channel A/D >converter, interrupt on delta if memory serves. Pretty
capable part in a tiny >package.

Oops...I should have said "12C672", not "16C672".


    

--
 Mike



From John.Andrian at usa.net  Tue Jan 19 02:40:40 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:40:40 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question
Message-ID: <mailman.32371.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Has anyone prom tuned the following bosch ecu: 0261 203 340/341?
I am having trouble locating the bytes that control the rev limiter.
Thank you.
John Andrianakis.




From orin at wolfenet.com  Tue Jan 19 02:53:02 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:53:02 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question
Message-ID: <mailman.32372.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> Has anyone prom tuned the following bosch ecu: 0261 203 340/341?
> I am having trouble locating the bytes that control the rev limiter.

What's it for?

Orin.



From synchris at ricochet.net  Tue Jan 19 02:55:31 1999
From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:55:31 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32373.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This sounded like fun so I decided to play with it some, at least on
paper. I have a question, though. What's the range of adjustment due
to CTS, and what does that adjustment look like? I'm thinking that
at "warm" temp or above, there is no adjustment, and below that temp,
the pulse width gets multiplied by some value. The colder the temp,
the larger the value. What would that max value be, though? 1.1? 
1.5? 2.0?  In other words, how much of a % difference does coolant
temp make in the pulse width? I'm thinking it's 50-100%, which means
I have to put it at a different place in my circuit.

>Okay, who's gonna be the first one to say it would be easiear to skip all
>the op-amps and use a PIC and some code?  ;) 

Hah! You beat me to it. This is more fun though. ;)

Also a nod to whoever pointed out that this is "just" D-Jetronic, I
was thinking exactly that myself. ;)

Anyway I'll try to get the circuit drawing into some format that
other people might be able to look at.

   Chris C.



From alipper at cardozo.org  Tue Jan 19 03:07:19 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:07:19 -0500
Subject: ECU6 - EFI plans and software now online
Message-ID: <mailman.32374.1369893293.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks to everyone who is helping with the ECU6 project.  It looks like
we'll have the next version ready within a couple of months (schematic, pc
board and software).  If anyone is experienced at 8051 programming and has
some time, we could certainly use help.  For those folks who just want to
build one, I'll try to keep you all updated on the project status.  The
current plans (schematics, PC board & software) are available at
http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/


			Al



From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jan 19 03:13:38 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:13:38 -0500
Subject: Is this DFI(Chyrsler injector head)
Message-ID: <mailman.32375.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Hello,
> This link describes what I belive to be direct fuel injection, anyone 
> heard of this? It is just a injector spraying fuel right into the 
> cylinder bore, but I thought it needed special components to work with a 
> very high fuel pressure and wasn't oem bound for quite some time.
> 
> www.media.chrysler.com/wwwprkt/25aa.htm
> 
There is a press release at www.sae.org  in another one of there
profit schemes publications stating that the 99 Mitsu. Dingo bat
will have GDI (gasoline direct injection).
alex


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Tue Jan 19 03:42:43 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:42:43 -0500
Subject: Pingin'
Message-ID: <mailman.32376.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Speaking of multi fuel motors--lemme mention the old Scout 800 short cab
I
>used to have, with a 196 cid four, with the (supposedly) export only
>pistons and head--6.5 : 1 compression, but a REALLY sweet combustion
>chamber design--guess it was designed to run on Pemex' (Mexico's)
worst!!
>It's favorite fuel mixture was  70% #2 diesel/ 30% unleaded regular. Ran
>like STINK on it!! (Kinda always made me wonder how much boost it
wouldda
>stood----!! (On decent fuel!)
>
>Regards, Greg

I have some experience with Pemex.  We drove out Jeep Grand Waggoneer
(from Detroit) to Mexico.  The freshly rebuilt engine ran great on the
way down, but kept getting worse and worse in Mexico.  Our Mexican
friends (who own an auto parts store and engine rebuilding shop) helped
us fix it up.  After all of that, getting another tank of Pemex (perhaps
with a lower water content?) made it run a lot better.  Once we got a
tank of gas at El Paso, it really improved, and got better with each tank
full.

That was with a carburater.  Now, it is injected and runs better than
ever.  I have a quart-sized filter/sediment bulb assembly that I'm going
to install before going down there again, though.  No telling what kind
of crud is in that stuff, and I surely don't want any in my injecters.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 19 03:44:04 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:44:04 -0500
Subject: TCC switch & questions.....
Message-ID: <mailman.32377.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Bruce -
> 
> Thanks for the detailed explanation; I get the picture now, and agree w/ what you said.  Think I'll drop the TCC lockup, as this vehicle's my daily transportation, not a race machine.
> 
> As an afterthought, how about interrupting the ignition circuit, i.e., killing the engine for maybe 50msec, whilst the TCC's locking up?  Might be pretty hard to time accurately, but the clutch would essentially lock under no active engine load; there'd still be the inertia of the converter and a speed mismatch between the engine crankshaft & trans input shaft, but should be a lot easier on all components involved.  Probably not worth the effort ITO lower ETs, but would ease the situation, even w/ the factory applied lockup in 4th gear.
> 

GM used to do that in the 50's and 60's when locking the overdrive
planetary in the 3spd+od manual trans.  Lotsa stories around about
shattered parts, blown mufflers and lost races.  And that's before
anything "electronic" was added...
Shannen

> Just a thought - thanks again - Barry



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Tue Jan 19 03:59:35 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:59:35 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32378.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Chris Conlon wrote:
> 
> This sounded like fun so I decided to play with it some, at least on
> paper. I have a question, though. What's the range of adjustment due
> to CTS, and what does that adjustment look like? I'm thinking that
> at "warm" temp or above, there is no adjustment, and below that temp,
> the pulse width gets multiplied by some value. The colder the temp,
> the larger the value. What would that max value be, though? 1.1?
> 1.5? 2.0?  In other words, how much of a % difference does coolant
> temp make in the pulse width? I'm thinking it's 50-100%, which means
> I have to put it at a different place in my circuit.
> 
> >Okay, who's gonna be the first one to say it would be easiear to skip all
> >the op-amps and use a PIC and some code?  ;)
> 
> Hah! You beat me to it. This is more fun though. ;)
> 
> Also a nod to whoever pointed out that this is "just" D-Jetronic, I
> was thinking exactly that myself. ;)
> 
> Anyway I'll try to get the circuit drawing into some format that
> other people might be able to look at.
> 
>    Chris C.
Stoich is 14.7:1? Cold enrichment can be as much as something like 8:1
or 6:1 from what I have been able to find - which is not much.

What pulse width difference are you looking at for MAP?
I figured about 50Ms for full power (1.5")at 4800 RPM, +/-and about .025
for idle 15" vacuum- this for a 4 cyl with batch fired X2 setup. Cold
enrich at idle could be as high as .050.

Interested in seeing your doodling.


From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 19 04:06:44 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:06:44 -0500
Subject: Non EFI, but could not resist sharing!!!
Message-ID: <mailman.32379.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>>      At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared
>> the
>> computer industry with the auto industry and stated:  "If GM had kept up
>> with
>> technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving
>> $25 cars that got 1000 miles to the gallon."
>>
>> In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release
>> stating: If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be
>> driving cars with the following characteristics:
>>
>> 1.  For no reason whatsoever your car would crash twice a day.
>>
>> 2.  Every time they repainted the lines on the road you would have to buy
>> a new car.
>>
>> 3.  Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason, and you
>> would just accept this, restart and drive on.
>>
>> 4.  Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause
>> your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have
>> to reinstall the engine.
>>
>> 5.  Only one person at a time could use the car, unless you bought
>> "Car95" or "Car NT" but then you would have to buy more seats.
>>
>> 6.  Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, reliable,
>> five times as fast, and twice as easy to drive, but would only run on 5%
>> of
>> the roads.
>>
>> 7.  The oil, water temperature and alternator warning lights would be
>> replaced by a single "general car fault" warning light.
>>
>> 8.  New seats would force everyone to have the same size butt.
>>
>> 9.  The air bag system would say, "Are you sure?" before going off.
>>
>> 10.  Occasionally for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out
>> and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lift the door handle,
>> turn the key, and grab hold of the radio antenna.
>>
>> 11.  GM would require all car buyers to also purchase a deluxe set of
>> Rand McNally Road maps (now a GM subsidiary), even though they neither
>> need them or want them. Attempting to delete this option would
>> immediately cause the car's performance to diminish by 50% or more.
>> Moreover, GM would become a target for investigation by the Justice
>> Department.
>>
>> 12.  Every time GM introduced a new model car buyers would have to learn
>> how
>> to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the
>> same
>> manner as the old car.
>>
>> 13.  You'd press the "start" button to shut off the engine.




From tigers at bserv.com  Tue Jan 19 04:07:09 1999
From: tigers at bserv.com (Bob Tom)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:07:09 -0500
Subject: Mopar PCM help request
Message-ID: <mailman.32380.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi, everybody.

I have a 1997 Dakota, 5.2L, auto. and, because Mopar
Performance does not have a performance computer out for
the 97+ Daks, I did as much research as I could and decided
to gamble on the MP performance computer for the '96 Dak.
Both are OBDII and, except for the major design and minor suspension
changes, everything seemed the same.

I received the computer last week and tested it today.  The performance
function seems to work fine but the gauges (water temp., oil pressure,
tach., battery, etc.) do not work at all.

My knowledge in this area is fairly elementary.  I have the '97 service
manual and am going over the wiring diagrams looking for possible fixes.

Any ideas or resources that I can look at would be greatly welcomed
and appreciated.

Bob
Burlington, Ont.




From JCsDOOR at aol.com  Tue Jan 19 04:15:44 1999
From: JCsDOOR at aol.com (JCsDOOR at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:15:44 -0500
Subject: Volvo FI help request
Message-ID: <mailman.32381.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ron,
 have you checked the wiring to the distr.
there are two metal clamps that hold the wires about 4 to 6 in. from the dist.
they have the habit of cutting the wires at this point.
 you didn't say if it was LH  or CIS.
if you have CIS check the warm up reg.
if you have LH you can un plug air meter and will still run fair, if it quits
smoking then air meter is bad.. it has been a few year sense volvos. now i
only have to work on saabs. write me off line and i can get you through it..


Jim Crance  JCsDOOR @aol.com


From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 19 04:39:30 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:39:30 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32382.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence L.Snyder <clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: 555 EFI

If this pans out would you toss a copy toward   nacelp at bright.net
Thanks
Bruce


>> >
>> > Harold
>I'm intersted, and I have a scanner if you want to fax it to me drop me
>a line off list and I'll give you my fax line #.
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 19 05:31:50 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:31:50 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32383.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: DFI info

I got my data by reading the archives here.
Bruce


>Well, mostly because that's what was recommended to me. Can you point
>me toward some literature that compares the two? I'd like to see an
>unbiased comparison but I've been unable to dig one up. I assumed
>(Along with the advice I was given) that going sequential reduced
>fuel consumption and emissions while improving idle quality and
>performance all by a good margin. Is this wrong, or exagerated?
>
>Charles Brooks
>
>
>
>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>> Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 10:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: DFI info
>>
>> Why SEFI?.  From what I've read other than a slight improvement in idle,
>> light cruise emissions there doesn't seem to be any real gains with it.
>> Bruce
>>
>



From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 19 06:33:22 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:33:22 -0500
Subject: 24000 ppm VSS?
Message-ID: <mailman.32384.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>From memory, 88 was right around the time that the speedometer cables
were dissappearing from the GM midsize cars.  This calibration fits an
88-89 AB body (Cutlass Cierra, Chevy Celebrity & similar) with 2.5l
and 3spd auto trans.  Quite possibly, it's from a car with a digital
dash and electronic cruise control.  It's superceded due to multiple
driveability
problems.

Shannen 

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> I've come across a PROM which appears to expect a 24000 pulse-per-mile
> VSS.  Its the ANAM1667 used in the 1227748 ECM.  This PROM configures a
> VSS interface chip to perform an extra "divide-by-6".  Other PROMs for
> this ECM set it to "divide-by-1" mode.  The ANAM PROM also has an extra
> factor of six in the VSS to vehicle speed calculation code (which gets
> the VSS signal before the hardware divide).
> 
> Could this PROM be for a reluctor type VSS?  I should have kept track of
> what type of car it came out of.
> 
> --
> Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
> Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/



From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 19 06:33:52 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:33:52 -0500
Subject: Astro ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.32385.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> >
> >See this, new info. OK, how about these 'templates', have any
> >info on the calibration layouts? Anyplace I can go for info?
> 
> Programming 101 is just about the 747, and basic prom stuff.
> >>
> >>Ward
> >
> >BobR.   Who now has pencil and paper in his junkyard
> >        scouring toolbag.
> >
> It's serious when ya have a staff 0f 7 tag along, and carry your
> own prom book, and Hollander manual.
> Bruce
Ya, but ya gotta smuggle the "research dept" in, else ya look too
proffessional and the prices go up.
Shannen



From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 19 06:34:13 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:34:13 -0500
Subject: Malfunction Flag Q      DIS enhancement
Message-ID: <mailman.32386.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If you're not too picky, this would probably be a good situation for
one of the carb'ed ECMs that's kicking around.  These were less likely
to go into limp-home, in my experience.  Plus, there were fewer
outputs and fewer monitored circuits!  Downside is you've got to find
the location for the timing map.
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> If someone wanted to use an ecm as a just a timing control
> for a DIS, would just wiring up the ignition module, and
> disabling all the malfunction flags allow the ecm to do that,
> with out it being in limp home mode?..
>   Of course the power, and grounds for the ecm would be
> hooked up.
>   Would using resistors of fixed values be necessary for
> like TPS/MAP?..   or best to use them for CTS/IAT etc.?.
>   Cheers
> Bruce
>



From rwebb at ptialaska.net  Tue Jan 19 06:35:05 1999
From: rwebb at ptialaska.net (Ronald T. Webb)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:35:05 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32387.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

My son just bought a '93 Grand Am with a 3.1l V6 and batch fire efi. I then got
a 94 chev corsica with the same engine but sefi. HP claimed is the same, they
both idle smooth, and he beats me in the "from here to the corner" 1/4 mile.

Doesn't look to me like there is any gain to the extra complexity...



Bruce Plecan wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 5:22 PM
> Subject: Re: DFI info
>
> I got my data by reading the archives here.
> Bruce
>
> >Well, mostly because that's what was recommended to me. Can you point
> >me toward some literature that compares the two? I'd like to see an
> >unbiased comparison but I've been unable to dig one up. I assumed
> >(Along with the advice I was given) that going sequential reduced
> >fuel consumption and emissions while improving idle quality and
> >performance all by a good margin. Is this wrong, or exagerated?
> >
> >Charles Brooks
> >
> >
> >
> >Bruce Plecan wrote:
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> >> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> >> Date: Monday, January 18, 1999 10:23 AM
> >> Subject: Re: DFI info
> >>
> >> Why SEFI?.  From what I've read other than a slight improvement in idle,
> >> light cruise emissions there doesn't seem to be any real gains with it.
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >



From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 19 06:44:58 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:44:58 -0500
Subject: Bin to ECM ID
Message-ID: <mailman.32388.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hmmm... Found BHDF/4632 for '94 7.4l VIN code N and 16196395.  Fits
3/4 and 1 ton pickups and vans, with 4l80E trans, and heavy GVW
rating  Note at the bottom says the '6395 PCM is replaced by the
16197427 PCM.
HTH
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> A   BHDF   is used in a 95 "N" truck, anyone able to match this
> to the ecm?.    ie 95 "N" truck used two ecms
> Bruce



From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Tue Jan 19 08:38:58 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:38:58 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32389.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Howday all

Hope you don't mind a excursion into history

Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.

One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.

Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
this..

Any ideas please

TIA:peter




From kevin at warpten.com  Tue Jan 19 10:32:25 1999
From: kevin at warpten.com (Kevin Crain)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 05:32:25 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32390.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Have you checked your float height?  Most dribbles I have seen were caused
by excessive gas in the float chamber, either due to float set too high or
leaking needle & seat.

-Kevin

On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Peter Fenske wrote:

> 
> 
> Howday all
> 
> Hope you don't mind a excursion into history
> 
> Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
> To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
> We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
> primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.
> 
> One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
> minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.
> 
> Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
> I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
> feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
> this..
> 
> Any ideas please
> 
> TIA:peter
> 
> 
> 



From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 19 13:53:31 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:53:31 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32391.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Chris Conlon wrote:
>>
>> This sounded like fun so I decided to play with it some, at least on
>> paper. I have a question, though. What's the range of adjustment due
>> to CTS, and what does that adjustment look like? I'm thinking that
>> at "warm" temp or above, there is no adjustment, and below that temp,
>> the pulse width gets multiplied by some value. The colder the temp,
>> the larger the value. What would that max value be, though? 1.1?
>> 1.5? 2.0?  In other words, how much of a % difference does coolant
>> temp make in the pulse width? I'm thinking it's 50-100%, which means
>> I have to put it at a different place in my circuit.
>>
>> >Okay, who's gonna be the first one to say it would be easiear to skip all
>> >the op-amps and use a PIC and some code?  ;)
>>
>> Hah! You beat me to it. This is more fun though. ;)
>>
>> Also a nod to whoever pointed out that this is "just" D-Jetronic, I
>> was thinking exactly that myself. ;)
>>
>> Anyway I'll try to get the circuit drawing into some format that
>> other people might be able to look at.
>>
>>    Chris C.
>Stoich is 14.7:1? Cold enrichment can be as much as something like 8:1
>or 6:1 from what I have been able to find - which is not much.
>
>What pulse width difference are you looking at for MAP?
>I figured about 50Ms for full power (1.5")at 4800 RPM, +/-and about .025
>for idle 15" vacuum- this for a 4 cyl with batch fired X2 setup. Cold
>enrich at idle could be as high as .050.
>
>Interested in seeing your doodling.

I would expect a LOT less cold enrichment with a dry runner manifold
situation than with a wet one tho!

Regards, Greg




From pford at qnx.com  Tue Jan 19 13:58:10 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:58:10 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32392.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Peter Fenske wrote:

> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:33:22 -0800
> From: Peter Fenske <pfenske at bcit.bc.ca>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
> 
> 
> 
> Howday all
> 
> Hope you don't mind a excursion into history
> 
> Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
> To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
> We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
> primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.

 take the top off the carb and the idle mixture screws,
jets and the emulsion tube and blow them out. generaly
this happens if the float is to high ( make sure that it 
is not gas soaked) or there is a block in the idle circuit

> 
> One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
> minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.

does it only happen around idle ( idle or pilot circuit )

it could also be crap in the power valve

> 
> Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
> I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
> feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
> this..
> 
> Any ideas please
> 
> TIA:peter

let me know how it turns out

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 19 14:06:17 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:06:17 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32393.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Howday all
>
>Hope you don't mind a excursion into history
>
>Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
>To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
>We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
>primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.
>
>One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
>minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.
>
>Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
>I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
>feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
>this..
>
>Any ideas please
>
>TIA:peter

Lower float level. Mebbe new needle valve. Mebbe clean float bowl vent.

Greg




From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 19 14:28:18 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:28:18 -0500
Subject: Bin to ECM ID
Message-ID: <mailman.32394.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Re: Bin to ECM ID

Well ain't that interesting, thanks
Bruce


>Hmmm... Found BHDF/4632 for '94 7.4l VIN code N and 16196395.  Fits
>3/4 and 1 ton pickups and vans, with 4l80E trans, and heavy GVW
>rating  Note at the bottom says the '6395 PCM is replaced by the
>16197427 PCM.
>Shannen




From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 19 14:43:25 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:43:25 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32395.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Fenske <pfenske at bcit.bc.ca>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 4:26 AM
Subject: Re: HALP Quadrajet dribbling

3.   Drop the float level
1a. Gas with a higher vapor pressure level
2.  Tad richer/more timing to lessen throttle opening
4.  Hidden tank with propane
1.  Less timinng (to reduce vac at idle)
Sometimes the winter blend fuel makes that really tough.
Bruce



>
>
>Howday all
>
>Hope you don't mind a excursion into history
>
>Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
>To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
>We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
>primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.
>
>One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
>minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.
>
>Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
>I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
>feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
>this..
>
>Any ideas please
>
>TIA:peter
>
>



From rauscher at icst.com  Tue Jan 19 14:47:36 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:47:36 -0500
Subject: Astro ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.32396.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Ward wrote:
>>
>>The 1227747 is calibration template type $42
>>the 1228062 is calibration template type $4E
>>
>>Both types have the same hardware but different firmware and thus 
>>different
>>calibration lay outs.
>>
>>
>>Ward

BobR wrote:
>
>See this, new info. OK, how about these 'templates', have any
>info on the calibration layouts? Anyplace I can go for info?

Bruce wrote:
>Programming 101 is just about the 747, and basic prom stuff.
>
>Bruce

I've read/studied/analysed/read-again everything that I can. This includes
the 101 stuff, the archives, other folks web sites... And now, Ward talks
about certain templates types for the different ECMs that include the 747.

His last line really is a kicker, "same hardware but different firmware and thus

different calibration lay outs".

Tantalizing information, go ahead, just tease us, we can take it <g>.

BobR.

--





From rauscher at icst.com  Tue Jan 19 14:53:26 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:53:26 -0500
Subject: Spark timing, '747
Message-ID: <mailman.32397.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


BobR wrote:
>>
>>Good answers seem to always bring more questions...
>>For some reason, I'll bet there's a location/value that defines a cold
>>engine
>>vs. a warm engine?!

>Lots of temps., like for learn, closed loop, egr enable, TCC enable,
>kinda like warm enough for what.
>Bruce
>

It was actually in reference to the spark bias crossover
temp. Cold spark vs. warm spark bias.


BobR.

--




From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Tue Jan 19 14:55:27 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:55:27 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32398.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Kevin Crain wrote:

> Have you checked your float height?  Most dribbles I have seen were caused
> by excessive gas in the float chamber, either due to float set too high or
> leaking needle & seat.
> 
If it has a foam type float rather than a brass type, replace it with a
new part. They slowly absorb fuel and sink, making the actual fuel level
different.




From JemisonR at tce.com  Tue Jan 19 15:03:13 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:03:13 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32399.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'm gonna make a wild guess that the carb wasn't doing the dribbling before
the CO adjust.  What did you do to meet your CO level?

rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	bearbvd at sni.net [SMTP:bearbvd at sni.net]
> Sent:	Tuesday, January 19, 1999 8:58 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
> 
> >Howday all
> >
> >Hope you don't mind a excursion into history
> >
> >Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
> >To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
> >We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
> >primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.
> >
> >One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
> >minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.
> >
> >Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
> >I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
> >feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
> >this..
> >
> >Any ideas please
> >
> >TIA:peter
> 
> Lower float level. Mebbe new needle valve. Mebbe clean float bowl vent.
> 
> Greg
> 


From rauscher at icst.com  Tue Jan 19 15:08:25 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:08:25 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32400.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Chris wrote:
>This sounded like fun so I decided to play with it some, at least on
>paper. I have a question, though. What's the range of adjustment due
>to CTS, and what does that adjustment look like? I'm thinking that
>at "warm" temp or above, there is no adjustment, and below that temp,
>the pulse width gets multiplied by some value. The colder the temp,
>the larger the value. What would that max value be, though? 1.1? 
>1.5? 2.0?  In other words, how much of a % difference does coolant
>temp make in the pulse width? I'm thinking it's 50-100%, which means
>I have to put it at a different place in my circuit.

Cold start/running can be be twice as much fuel. Going from a 14.7 afr
down to 6.0 afr for cold running. For starting, even more fuel.

So i guess a multiplier from 1 warm (no additional fuel), to 2.5 cold range
should be enough.

BobR.

--





From Terry_Sare at dell.com  Tue Jan 19 15:11:38 1999
From: Terry_Sare at dell.com (Terry_Sare at dell.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:11:38 -0500
Subject: Mopar PCM help request
Message-ID: <mailman.32401.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Check and see if your book wiring diagram list a CCD bus. If so, then all
the stuff in the instrument panel is driven by the engine computer through
that bus. I have a 98 Quad Cab and found this out when looking for the tach
signal. 

Anybody know anything about this bus -- it is 2 wire balanced pair, maybe
CAN or SCI protocol?


tks
ts

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Tom [mailto:tigers at bserv.com]
Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 5:06 PM
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Mopar PCM help request


Hi, everybody.

I have a 1997 Dakota, 5.2L, auto. and, because Mopar
Performance does not have a performance computer out for
the 97+ Daks, I did as much research as I could and decided
to gamble on the MP performance computer for the '96 Dak.
Both are OBDII and, except for the major design and minor suspension
changes, everything seemed the same.

I received the computer last week and tested it today.  The performance
function seems to work fine but the gauges (water temp., oil pressure,
tach., battery, etc.) do not work at all.

My knowledge in this area is fairly elementary.  I have the '97 service
manual and am going over the wiring diagrams looking for possible fixes.

Any ideas or resources that I can look at would be greatly welcomed
and appreciated.

Bob
Burlington, Ont.



From dito at sby.globalinfo.net  Tue Jan 19 15:52:51 1999
From: dito at sby.globalinfo.net (Dito)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:52:51 -0500
Subject: Mitsubishi VR Problems
Message-ID: <mailman.32402.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi

I have 1997 Mitsubishi VR (4-cyl, 4G63 Injection Engine) that might have a
problem.
After a long time of driving(approx 3-4 Hours) there is some problem
in the engine that the RPM is choppy (like run out of gas) when a normal 
driving and this is not always happen, just sometimes occur. I dont know 
what is happening at the engine. What is a general solution for this symptom?
and which part should be inspection for checking.

Thank you



From gderian at cybergate.net  Tue Jan 19 16:06:32 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:06:32 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32403.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Carb dribbling is usually caused by a sunk float or a leaky inlet needle.
Also, Q-jets are notorious for leaky plugs on the bottom of the float bowl.
Kits are available to stop this.  The plugs are visible on the bottom of the
carb  when the throttle base plate is removed.
Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>
>Howday all
>
>Hope you don't mind a excursion into history
>
>Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
>To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
>We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
>primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.
>
>One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
>minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.
>
>Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
>I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
>feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
>this..
>
>Any ideas please
>
>TIA:peter
>



From mpitts at netspeak.com  Tue Jan 19 16:15:52 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:15:52 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32404.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


The smoother idle of the SEFI system really comes into 
play when you have extremely large injectors, such as 
83#er's.  Generally these setups are found on race cars 
only.

I think SEFI on the street is more for economy than 
anything else.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Ronald T.
Webb
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 10:50 AM
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: DFI info


My son just bought a '93 Grand Am with a 3.1l V6 and batch fire efi. I then
got
a 94 chev corsica with the same engine but sefi. HP claimed is the same,
they
both idle smooth, and he beats me in the "from here to the corner" 1/4 mile.

Doesn't look to me like there is any gain to the extra complexity...


From oleg at Kutepov.usm.uni-muenchen.de  Tue Jan 19 16:28:52 1999
From: oleg at Kutepov.usm.uni-muenchen.de (oleg at Kutepov.usm.uni-muenchen.de)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:28:52 -0500
Subject: Mopar PCM help request
Message-ID: <mailman.32405.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> Check and see if your book wiring diagram list a CCD bus.

[skip]

> 
> Anybody know anything about this bus -- it is 2 wire balanced pair, maybe
> CAN or SCI protocol?
> 

It is similar to RS-485 and has 7812 baud rate. BTW, if some kind person
can scan the wiring diagram and upload it to incoming dir, that
would be nice. 

 Oleg.



From alipper at cardozo.org  Tue Jan 19 18:31:37 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:31:37 -0500
Subject: 8051
Message-ID: <mailman.32406.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Wayne,
	It's good to hear that someone with your experience is interested in the
project.  The amound of assembly work is minimal - perhaps trivial for an
experienced programmer (especially one who's worked with Intel and Phillips
parts before).  I would guess a few evenings would do it for the critical
stuff.  Essentially, we need interrupt service routines (ISR) and an
initialization routine converted from the Intel 80C51GB to the Phillips
80C552.  There are two main ISRs.  The first measures the suration between
ignition pulses (using a capture/compare) and save this as a 2-byte value,
at the same time, it fires the injectors.  The second reads a 2-byte value
representing the injector on-time (pulse width) turns off the injectors
after that time has elapsed.  Otherwise, there are some odd routines like
initializing ports and reading the A/D converter (to mirror it into bytes
accessible by the main program).  All the routines are in EFI02.ASM - maybe
you can take a look at it and get an idea of what's involved.  This is the
really important stuff.

In addition, we also need a flash-memory upload program (FLOAD.ASM) to be
adapted to work with the new 5v Flash memory we'll be using, a routine is
needed to detect rapid throttle movement (and return values indicating its
position and rate of change) and finally, something to detect if ignition
pulses have stopped (the engine isn't running).

If you can help with any of it, that would be great.  Thanks.


				Al

Al Lipper
efi at cardozo.org
http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/


At 02:52 PM 1/19/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Al 
>
>I wrote 8051 assembler for phillips and intel variants 5 or 6 years ago.
>I think you mentioned basic, C but  would be nice.
>Are you looking for some one with development tools.
>What needs doing ?
>I dunno how much time you need.
>
>
>
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< bye >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>wayne
>[Brisbane Australia]




From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 19 18:39:40 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:39:40 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32407.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pitts <mpitts at netspeak.com>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: DFI info

Ahhh Soo, Grasshopper returns to seat in back of room now,
and puts Cone Shaped Hat back on.  Just wish my chair
didn't face the corner.  But, makes sense when ya run
huge injectors
Bruce


>
>The smoother idle of the SEFI system really comes into
>play when you have extremely large injectors, such as
>83#er's.  Generally these setups are found on race cars
>only.
>
>I think SEFI on the street is more for economy than
>anything else.
>
>-Mike
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Ronald T.
>Webb
>Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 10:50 AM
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Re: DFI info
>
>
>My son just bought a '93 Grand Am with a 3.1l V6 and batch fire efi. I then
>got
>a 94 chev corsica with the same engine but sefi. HP claimed is the same,
>they
>both idle smooth, and he beats me in the "from here to the corner" 1/4
mile.
>
>Doesn't look to me like there is any gain to the extra complexity...
>



From Terry_Sare at dell.com  Tue Jan 19 18:48:55 1999
From: Terry_Sare at dell.com (Sare, Terry)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:48:55 -0500
Subject: Mopar PCM help request
Message-ID: <mailman.32408.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

No scanner unfortunately. The wiring diagram covers about 20+ pages in the
Factory manual for 98 RAM Pickup. What are you looking for?

7812 is weird baud rate. If I put a 485 transceiver on the bus will it
correctly translate the signal to TTL? Do you have any good references to
read for this bus?

ts

-----Original Message-----
From: oleg at Kutepov.usm.uni-muenchen.de
[mailto:oleg at Kutepov.usm.uni-muenchen.de]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 10:36 AM
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Mopar PCM help request


> 
> Check and see if your book wiring diagram list a CCD bus.

[skip]

> 
> Anybody know anything about this bus -- it is 2 wire balanced pair, maybe
> CAN or SCI protocol?
> 

It is similar to RS-485 and has 7812 baud rate. BTW, if some kind person
can scan the wiring diagram and upload it to incoming dir, that
would be nice. 

 Oleg.


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Tue Jan 19 18:49:59 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:49:59 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32409.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Mike Pitts wrote:

> 
> The smoother idle of the SEFI system really comes into 
> play when you have extremely large injectors, such as 
> 83#er's.  Generally these setups are found on race cars 
> only.
> 
> I think SEFI on the street is more for economy than 
> anything else.
> 
> -Mike
> 

I am not even sure how much help it gives you with economy.  See the
4th gen camaros.   The 93's where batch fire, and the 94+ are SEFI,
the EPA rating is very similar (maybe +1mpg on the highway), the
horsepower is identical in both.    So I guess if you were constrained
by the EPA and needed to improve mileage 1mpg then it is reasonable,
but I would not thinkg that would really be enough to interest most
of us.

					Roger



From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 19 18:56:53 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:56:53 -0500
Subject: Astro ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.32410.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: rauscher at icst.com <rauscher at icst.com>
To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: Astro ECM

You'll see that GM has lots of time and money just to make life difficult
for others.  Why when they use the same ecm, and same sensors,  on
different cars with the same tables why move the tables around?.
  I'll leave the corp politics out.
Bruce



>Ward wrote:
>>>The 1227747 is calibration template type $42
>>>the 1228062 is calibration template type $4E
>>>Both types have the same hardware but different firmware and thus
>>>different
>>>calibration lay outs.
>>>Ward
>BobR wrote:
>>See this, new info. OK, how about these 'templates', have any
>>info on the calibration layouts? Anyplace I can go for info?
>Bruce wrote:
>>Programming 101 is just about the 747, and basic prom stuff.
>>Bruce
>I've read/studied/analysed/read-again everything that I can. This includes
>the 101 stuff, the archives, other folks web sites... And now, Ward talks
>about certain templates types for the different ECMs that include the 747.
>His last line really is a kicker, "same hardware but different firmware and
thus
>different calibration lay outs".
>Tantalizing information, go ahead, just tease us, we can take it <g>.
>BobR.




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Tue Jan 19 19:04:54 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:04:54 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32411.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Lower the float level


At 12:33 AM 1/19/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Howday all
>
>Hope you don't mind a excursion into history
>
>Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
>To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
>We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
>primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.
>
>One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
>minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.
>
>Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
>I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
>feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
>this..
>
>Any ideas please
>
>TIA:peter
>
>

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Tue Jan 19 19:20:37 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:20:37 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32412.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 03:54 PM 1/19/99 +0100, you wrote:
>I'm gonna make a wild guess that the carb wasn't doing the dribbling before
>the CO adjust.  What did you do to meet your CO level?

The other problem that makes them dribble is the plugs in the bottom of the
bowl leak... they were a problem and the fix was a little JB Weld epoxy
over them and let it sit overnight before reassembly.
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Tue Jan 19 19:23:39 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:23:39 -0500
Subject: Mopar PCM help request
Message-ID: <mailman.32413.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 09:09 AM 1/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Check and see if your book wiring diagram list a CCD bus. If so, then all
>the stuff in the instrument panel is driven by the engine computer through
>that bus. I have a 98 Quad Cab and found this out when looking for the tach
>signal. 
>
>Anybody know anything about this bus -- it is 2 wire balanced pair, maybe
>CAN or SCI protocol?

If it's a 98, it's Most likely OBD_II.  I think Chryslers variant is ISO-9141
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Tue Jan 19 19:40:14 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:40:14 -0500
Subject: 555 EFI
Message-ID: <mailman.32414.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I have the basic circuit ready to fax to you , I just need your fax number
 
Thanks Don

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Clarence L.Snyder [SMTP:clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net]
> Sent:	Monday, January 18, 1999 7:57 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: 555 EFI
> 
> Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com wrote:
> > 
> > When I was at a Research Lab we used a circuit to run the Dyno engines
> so I
> > know it works. I cant scan it but could fax it to
> > someone who could. The circuit triggers from dist pulses from the HEI
> module
> > REF lead to a cd4013 Flip/Flop and cd4538 Dual monostable. The Q output
> of
> > the 4013 goes to pin 2 of a 2 input And gate cd 4081. The Not Q goes to
> pin
> > 5 of the 4081. Pins 1 and 6 of the 4081 are tied together and go to the
> Q
> > output of the 4538. The pulse width is controlled by a 100K pot and .1
> mfd
> > cap on pin 2 of the 4538. Pins 4 and 3 of the 4081 go to power
> transistors
> > that fire the injectors. 10K resistors are in series with the base of
> the
> > transistors.  A Throttle position sensor can be used  in place of the
> 100K
> > pot and will vary the pulse width from  approx .5 to 10 Msec. If the TPS
> is
> > 10K add resistors on each end of the pot to get 100K total. Place a
> switch
> > on the Bypass line of the HEI, open to start, Ground to run.  Now to the
> > part I haven't tested yet. A FORD MAP sensor outpus a frequency in
> relation
> > to the Vac present. Connect the output of the FORD MAP  to the HEI
> module
> > EST input. After the engine starts flip the switch to RUN and the FORD
> MAP
> > will output about 160 Hz to the HEI mod. This should advance the timing.
> As
> > you Rev the engine the Freq. will go down and  retard the timing. If you
> > want to add a coolant sensor and rather use a Voltage output MAP. Use a
> > Summing amp config on the input of the monostable and a VCO to control
> the
> > timing. Just my .02$ for a circuit that will run a engine for testing at
> a
> > junk yard or on a stand.
> > 
> >                                                             Don
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: AL8001 at aol.com [SMTP:AL8001 at aol.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:45 AM
> > > To:   diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > > Subject:      Re: 555 EFI
> > >
> > > In a message dated 99-01-15 09:33:21 EST, nacelp at bright.net writes:
> > >
> > > > I'm looking to keep this as much as an entry level thing, meaning
> > > >nothing but 555s, op-amps, and a final drive.
> > >
> > > Something like this would be great for testing junk yard engines or
> > > moveing a
> > > car that's a "work in progress" when the ECM and related parts are
> gone.
> > >
> > > Harold
> I'm intersted, and I have a scanner if you want to fax it to me drop me
> a line off list and I'll give you my fax line #.


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Tue Jan 19 19:42:14 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:42:14 -0500
Subject: HALP dribbling Thanks everyone
Message-ID: <mailman.32415.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi Rick, Bruce and all the other helpful people

The carb is fine, brass floats, expoxied plugs, level 11/32 and
tried a fact rblt one just to check. When adjusted both carbs do this.
Ported spark and 0 degrees inital.

Yep Rick you are right. I have to get the CO to less than 1.5%
to meet standard. If I leave it at 3% runs like a champ
no dribbling but is illegial

To get the cat to light you have to have less than 1%

You guys did get me thinking. In order to idle
properly with the lean mixture required a much
higher airflow is required. this tends to activate the
main booster, hence the dribbling.
Also the low vapor pressure used here in winter
is a contributation.

What we are gonna try and the CO meter likes it
is creating a massive air leak. HC goes up
but should be tolerable.

Just hope the smog guys don't see it

Thanks all:peter

And no this is not how the car will be driven later




From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 19 20:00:30 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:00:30 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32416.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Remember to consider emissions requirements when guessing as to OEM
decision making.  Emissions and liability...

Shannen


Mike wrote:
> 
> The smoother idle of the SEFI system really comes into
> play when you have extremely large injectors, such as
> 83#er's.  Generally these setups are found on race cars
> only.
> 
> I think SEFI on the street is more for economy than
> anything else.
> 
> -Mike
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Ronald T.
> Webb
> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 10:50 AM
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: DFI info
> 
> My son just bought a '93 Grand Am with a 3.1l V6 and batch fire efi. I then
> got
> a 94 chev corsica with the same engine but sefi. HP claimed is the same,
> they
> both idle smooth, and he beats me in the "from here to the corner" 1/4 mile.
> 
> Doesn't look to me like there is any gain to the extra complexity...



From rauscher at icst.com  Tue Jan 19 20:39:24 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:39:24 -0500
Subject: OT: 5 spd wanted
Message-ID: <mailman.32417.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



By brother is looking for a 5-spd for his '68 Camaro. Anyone
that has a T5 from a 3rd gen Camaro/Firebird that they wish
to sell, please contact me off list.

It needs to be in decent condition, this is for a street car.

BobR.

rauscher at icst.com

P.S. I'm in the southeast corner of PA.

--




From zxv at istar.ca  Tue Jan 19 20:53:48 1999
From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:53:48 -0500
Subject: HALP dribbling Thanks everyone
Message-ID: <mailman.32418.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>What we are gonna try and the CO meter likes it
>is creating a massive air leak. HC goes up
>but should be tolerable.

That could be a common fix of drilling 2 small holes in your primary
throttle plate as described by Roe etc for Qjet's having a hard time
staying in the idle circuit.  I can look up the specifics at home if you're
interested, just jumped in on this from work and only have this email so
maybe this was already mentioned..

good luck, I have to have mine aircared w/in 3 wks as well.

>Just hope the smog guys don't see it

Thankfully my pass/fail is only based on the sniffer and visuals only serve
as recc'd'n's to fix if it does fail the sniffer.

Not one smog item (cannister/cat/pump nada) on my 327 280ZX and a little
fiddling gets it through our sniffer's.  Limits aren't very picky till
later 80's etc in our area.

Ross Corrigan
mailto:zxv at istar.ca


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Tue Jan 19 20:54:38 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:54:38 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32419.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi David

How goes all the interesting things you
are always up too?

Know about the plugs. Usually JB em..
Or you can buy the fancy plugs..

Here the fuel actually comes outa the top
of the boosters..And as Bruce suggested
is prob due to excessive airflow required
for a lean mix.

tnx:peter





From sganz at wgn.net  Tue Jan 19 21:37:36 1999
From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:37:36 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32420.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The beloved QJet, my favorite carb!, A couple of things can cause the
dribble. Some QJets have bad seals under the wells for the pri jets, Check
under the main bowl for fuel leaks. Most QJet books show some repair for
this, the second thing is to check the accelerator pump as it may be
missing the ball bearing that stops fuel from getting sucked into the
engine (I think this is true, been a long time), Check for vacuum leaks
and general top gasket leaks, and use a vacuum gauge to see if it is
steady, if not, your enrichment circuits (the piston with the needles
attached) will pop up and will cause fuel to pour in. If this is the case
you will need to bump the idle a bit or find the leak, maybe bad pvc or
hose. Also sometimes you can cheat by bumping the timming to get some more
rpm at idle.

Sandy

At 12:33 AM 1/19/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>Howday all
>
>Hope you don't mind a excursion into history
>
>Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
>To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
>We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
>primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.
>
>One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
>minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.
>
>Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
>I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
>feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
>this..
>
>Any ideas please
>
>TIA:peter
>



From mpitts at netspeak.com  Tue Jan 19 21:51:34 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 16:51:34 -0500
Subject: DFI info
Message-ID: <mailman.32421.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


You are right.  When I wrote economy, I was actually 
thinking emissions.  Two 'E' words, brain overload! 8-)
usually they go together, but not always I presume.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Shannen
Durphey
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 4:01 PM
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: DFI info


Remember to consider emissions requirements when guessing as to OEM
decision making.  Emissions and liability...

Shannen


Mike wrote:
> 
> The smoother idle of the SEFI system really comes into
> play when you have extremely large injectors, such as
> 83#er's.  Generally these setups are found on race cars
> only.
> 
> I think SEFI on the street is more for economy than
> anything else.
> 
> -Mike


From John.Andrian at usa.net  Tue Jan 19 22:48:35 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:48:35 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question
Message-ID: <mailman.32422.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Orin Eman wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone prom tuned the following bosch ecu: 0261 203 340/341?
> > I am having trouble locating the bytes that control the rev limiter.
> 
> What's it for?
> 
> Orin.
Its found on 1.4 SPI Seat Ibizas. I have turbocharged one but I cant
find the rev limiter. Spent considerable time with the eprom emulator on
the car but no luck.
By the way I just found out that they ecu comes in another variation
Bosch:0261 203 360/361. It works with the same bin file.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
John Anrianakis.




From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Tue Jan 19 22:50:29 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:50:29 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32423.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If it hasn't been brought up already, I would check the idle air bleed
passages by running a fine wire through them to clean them out.
It is just a thought.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Sandy [SMTP:sganz at wgn.net]
> Sent:	Tuesday, January 19, 1999 3:42 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
> 
> The beloved QJet, my favorite carb!, A couple of things can cause the
> dribble. Some QJets have bad seals under the wells for the pri jets, Check
> under the main bowl for fuel leaks. Most QJet books show some repair for
> this, the second thing is to check the accelerator pump as it may be
> missing the ball bearing that stops fuel from getting sucked into the
> engine (I think this is true, been a long time), Check for vacuum leaks
> and general top gasket leaks, and use a vacuum gauge to see if it is
> steady, if not, your enrichment circuits (the piston with the needles
> attached) will pop up and will cause fuel to pour in. If this is the case
> you will need to bump the idle a bit or find the leak, maybe bad pvc or
> hose. Also sometimes you can cheat by bumping the timming to get some more
> rpm at idle.
> 
> Sandy
> 
> At 12:33 AM 1/19/99 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >Howday all
> >
> >Hope you don't mind a excursion into history
> >
> >Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
> >To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
> >We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
> >primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.
> >
> >One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
> >minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.
> >
> >Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
> >I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
> >feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
> >this..
> >
> >Any ideas please
> >
> >TIA:peter
> >


From pdatcuk at snip.net  Tue Jan 19 23:08:48 1999
From: pdatcuk at snip.net (Pete Datcuk)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 18:08:48 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32424.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Amazon.com has it.

Pete

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu 
> [mailto:mpiccioni at attcanada.net] On Behalf Of Marc Piccioni
> Sent:	Sunday, January 17, 1999 1:07 PM
> To:	'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'
> Subject:	RE: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
> 
> Any idea's where to get this book?
> 
> 


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From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Wed Jan 20 00:28:59 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:28:59 -0500
Subject: HALP dribbling Thanks everyone
Message-ID: <mailman.32425.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Peter Fenske wrote:
> 
> Hi Rick, Bruce and all the other helpful people
> 
> The carb is fine, brass floats, expoxied plugs, level 11/32 and
> tried a fact rblt one just to check. When adjusted both carbs do this.
> Ported spark and 0 degrees inital.
> 
> Yep Rick you are right. I have to get the CO to less than 1.5%
> to meet standard. If I leave it at 3% runs like a champ
> no dribbling but is illegial
> 
> To get the cat to light you have to have less than 1%
> 
> You guys did get me thinking. In order to idle
> properly with the lean mixture required a much
> higher airflow is required. this tends to activate the
> main booster, hence the dribbling.
> Also the low vapor pressure used here in winter
> is a contributation.
> 
> What we are gonna try and the CO meter likes it
> is creating a massive air leak. HC goes up
> but should be tolerable.
> 
> Just hope the smog guys don't see it
> 
> Thanks all:peter
> 
> And no this is not how the car will be driven later

Rework the booster venturi to make it a little less responsive, or get a
booster from a different carb if it is removeable. Your air bypass idea
also has merit - possibly reprofiling the throttle plates to get the
additional airflow running on the outside of the throat instead of down
the center might be an option.


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Wed Jan 20 01:03:14 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:03:14 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32426.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Is the vacuum advance ported or manifold? Going from ported to manifold
can increase your idle speed significantly with no increase in throttle
opening - possibly get you over the hump. I used to do this regularly on
slant sixes and 318s in the late 60s to late 70s.
> >


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Wed Jan 20 01:13:48 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:13:48 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32427.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

O.K. so the consensus seems to be that the improvement over
batch fire systems that is seen with a SEFI system is negligible.
So, how does the batch fire system operate with 8 injectors?
does it fire 1/8th of the fuel every 1/8th of the combustion
cycle? (I don't think it does :)  I just don't know what it does
do.

I had assumed that batch fire meant firing all injectors at the
same time... And that SEFI fired a single injector when that 
injectors' intake valve opened...

Does the batch fire only fire 2 at a time? 4?

I think what I'm going to do is buy the FIS PROM for the TPI
setup and dump it to study. After I buy a programmable system
I'll have the FIS PROM image to start with and fall back on in
the event I goof something up. Does that sound like a reasonable
line of pursuit, or a cop out?! LoL!


Charles Brooks


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Wed Jan 20 01:20:39 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:20:39 -0500
Subject: HALP dribbling Thanks everyone
Message-ID: <mailman.32428.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Peter Fenske wrote:

> You guys did get me thinking. In order to idle
> properly with the lean mixture required a much
> higher airflow is required. this tends to activate the
> main booster, hence the dribbling.
> Also the low vapor pressure used here in winter
> is a contributation.
>
> What we are gonna try and the CO meter likes it
> is creating a massive air leak. HC goes up
> but should be tolerable.

You might try openning the secondaries just a tad until you pass.....  Tom



From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan 20 01:37:44 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:37:44 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32429.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>If it hasn't been brought up already, I would check the idle air bleed
>passages by running a fine wire through them to clean them out.
>It is just a thought.
>
Ahhhh--you have learned much, Grasshoppah--but in this case, it is often a
pickled mosquito which is the culprit!!

Greg




From mpilkent at ptw.com  Wed Jan 20 02:07:57 1999
From: mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:07:57 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32430.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

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Al,  I checked out this site that Ron mentioned and it looks very =
promising.  For these prices, it seems almost too costly to reinvent the =
processor PCB.  I never heard any other feedback postings but what do =
you all think about using one of these off-the-shelf boards (cheap, =
upgradable, and available now) and then just designing an I/O board to =
mate to it?

Mike Pilkenton
-----Original Message-----
    From: Ronald T. Webb <rwebb at ptialaska.net>
    To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu =
<diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
    Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:53 PM
    Subject: Re: ECU6 EFI system construction
   =20
   =20
    Greetings -=20
    This "ECU 6" sounds interesting. 2 suggestions=20
   =20
    1- Before deciding to build our own processor board, look at  New =
Micro's=20
        They have several boards - fully functional - in the $30 to $80 =
range...=20
   =20
    2 - Development software is easiest if not done with the cheap =
public domain stuff -=20
         My own favorite is Embedded Workbench by  IAR . Their C =
development        system for the 8751 is like working with the old =
Turbo Pascal. They have a free demo version that's still better than =
small C.=20
   =20
    Just a suggestion. I also would get involved. Hardware or =
software...=20
     =20
   =20
   =20

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 =
transitional//en">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Al,&nbsp; I checked out this site =
that Ron=20
mentioned and it looks very promising.&nbsp; For these prices, it seems =
almost=20
too costly to reinvent the processor PCB.&nbsp; I never heard any other =
feedback=20
postings but what do you all think about using one of these =
off-the-shelf boards=20
(cheap, upgradable, and available now) and then just designing an I/O =
board to=20
mate to it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Mike Pilkenton</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Ronald T. Webb &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:rwebb at ptialaska.net">rwebb at ptialaska.net</A>&gt;<BR><B>To:=
=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu">diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio=
-state.edu</A>=20
    &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu">diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio=
-state.edu</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:53 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: ECU6 =
EFI=20
    system construction<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Greetings -=20
    <P>This &quot;ECU 6&quot; sounds interesting. 2 suggestions=20
    <P>1- Before deciding to build our own processor board, look =
at&nbsp; <A=20
    href=3D"www.newmicros.com">New Micro's</A> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
They have=20
    several boards - fully functional - in the $30 to $80 range...=20
    <P>2 - Development software is easiest if not done with the cheap =
public=20
    domain stuff - <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My own favorite is =
Embedded=20
    Workbench by&nbsp; <A href=3D"www.iar.com">IAR</A> . Their C=20
    development&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; system for the =
8751 is=20
    like working with the old Turbo Pascal. They have a free demo =
version that's=20
    still better than small C.=20
    <P>Just a suggestion. I also would get involved. Hardware or =
software...=20
    <BR>&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp;</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00E9_01BE43D6.14D4B820--



From Brian.Franchuk at drizzle.mm.com  Wed Jan 20 02:13:11 1999
From: Brian.Franchuk at drizzle.mm.com (Brian Franchuk)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:13:11 -0500
Subject: Converting vane type airflow meter to MAF
Message-ID: <mailman.32431.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I just joined this list a couple days ago so I applogize if this is a 
repeat question.  I am trying to determine the feasibility of 
converting the vane type airflow meter in my 88 BMW 535i to a MAF 
system.  My main reasons for doing this are the increased airflow to 
the engine (more HP) and the reliability (no moving parts).  My 
questions are:

1) Are my assumptions above correct?

2) How difficult is this conversion to do?  I am an embedded systems 
   programmer so the software isn't really a problem.  What I really 
   need to know is how complex is the conversion algorithm?  Do I 
   need to add a MAP or a trottle position sensor?

3) Are there any books you can recommend for this type of project?

4) Is there is good "hobbyist" MAF out there that will fit well to 
   this engine (3.5l ~6600 RPM ~220 HP).  I can deal with voltage or 
   pulse output.  I was thinking of using a sensor from a 5.0 l
   Mustang since it would be easy to find a replacement if necessary.

Thanks.

Brian Franchuk


From chrishil at utkux.utcc.utk.edu  Wed Jan 20 02:16:04 1999
From: chrishil at utkux.utcc.utk.edu (Chris Hill)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:16:04 -0500
Subject: Stand alone fuel injection
Message-ID: <mailman.32432.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Everyone,
	I am in the process of converting a motorcycle engine to EFI.  The
engine will run a M85 mixture (85% methanol, 15% gas) and be turbo
charged, and have an output of 25 hp/cylinder.  I was wondering what the
concensous would be on wha manufacturer to use for this kind of set-up.  

Thanks,  

Christopher E. Hill
University of Tennessee
1998 National Football champions
chill6 at utk.edu



From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jan 20 03:08:36 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:08:36 -0500
Subject: Mopar PCM help request
Message-ID: <mailman.32433.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> No scanner unfortunately. The wiring diagram covers about 20+ pages in the
> Factory manual for 98 RAM Pickup. What are you looking for?
> 
> 7812 is weird baud rate. If I put a 485 transceiver on the bus will it
> correctly translate the signal to TTL? Do you have any good references to
> read for this bus?
> 
I looked at some OBD2 diagnostic data on a Dodge Ram last year.
A astronomer decoded similiar data for a pre-obd mopar over a weekend 
and posted in archives.  It is a 2 wire Rx Tx  serial, you can invert 
to rs232.  The bytes I have are 8192 baud not from the ISO-K 
line and did not seem to be any  SAE spec.  Chrysler is adapting to 
CAN bus for non-diagnostic com.  If you can not find in archives I 
can repost.  If you get any bytes I can see if they are J2178 
decodeable.
alex    


From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 20 03:12:06 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:12:06 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32434.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: DIY_EFI Fuel Injection List <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:49 PM
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths


>O.K. so the consensus seems to be that the improvement over
>batch fire systems that is seen with a SEFI system is negligible.

Other than what M Pitts pointed out

>So, how does the batch fire system operate with 8 injectors?
>does it fire 1/8th of the fuel every 1/8th of the combustion
>cycle? (I don't think it does :)  I just don't know what it does
>do.
>
>I had assumed that batch fire meant firing all injectors at the
>same time...

Yes

 And that SEFI fired a single injector when that 
>injectors' intake valve opened...

Strategy varies about when to fire the injector, but once
per cylinders ignition pulse.
>
>Does the batch fire only fire 2 at a time? 4?

Usually all 8
>
>I think what I'm going to do is buy the FIS PROM for the TPI
>setup and dump it to study. After I buy a programmable system
>I'll have the FIS PROM image to start with and fall back on in
>the event I goof something up. Does that sound like a reasonable
>line of pursuit, or a cop out?! LoL!

What's FIS, and what are you working on?, ecm?.
Bruce
>
>
>Charles Brooks
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan 20 03:15:38 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:15:38 -0500
Subject: HALP dribbling Thanks everyone
Message-ID: <mailman.32435.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Peter Fenske wrote:
>
>> You guys did get me thinking. In order to idle
>> properly with the lean mixture required a much
>> higher airflow is required. this tends to activate the
>> main booster, hence the dribbling.
>> Also the low vapor pressure used here in winter
>> is a contributation.
>>
>> What we are gonna try and the CO meter likes it
>> is creating a massive air leak. HC goes up
>> but should be tolerable.
>
>You might try openning the secondaries just a tad until you pass.....  Tom

And setting the float level a bit lower than specified will delay the
beginning of the dribble also!

Greg




From Galadar at worldnet.att.net  Wed Jan 20 03:24:52 1999
From: Galadar at worldnet.att.net (Jon Fedock)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:24:52 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32436.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello Group,
    Just to make sure, you did set the timing with the 4-prong connector
disconnected didn't you? If not, timing would be significantly slower than
normal. Just a guess.
Jon

--
>> hose. Also sometimes you can cheat by bumping the timming to get some
more
>> rpm at idle.
>>




From curtp at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 20 03:28:58 1999
From: curtp at earthlink.net (Curt Platteborze)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:28:58 -0500
Subject: Injector Voltage
Message-ID: <mailman.32437.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I just made a test setup, fuel pump, reg and filter to test and clean my
Bosche  fuel injectors before I reinstall them in my motor.

Can someone tell me the voltage that is needed to fire the injectors? I know
they are driven by pulses from the PCM but not sure of the voltage.

Thanks,

Curt



From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan 20 03:51:39 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:51:39 -0500
Subject: Non EFI, but could not resist sharing!!!
Message-ID: <mailman.32438.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi, all--

After thinking some more on the little thing I wasted bandwidth with this
AM, it occurred to me that we could propose a way for our fine senators to
settle two major hassles--let slick stay in office, and let Microsoft out
of the anti-trust suit against it if slick will agree to appoint Gates, and
Gates will agree to serve as the head of the NHTSA for the balance of
slick's term!

Consider (from the first post):

 6.  Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, reliable, five
times as fast, and twice as easy to drive, but would only run on 5% of the
roads.

I would certainly be willing to impale an apple on my hood ornament in
order to be able to drive five times as fast, even if only on 5% of the
roads!! :-)

Regards, Greg




From ECMnut at aol.com  Wed Jan 20 03:57:03 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:57:03 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32439.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/19/99 8:19:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net writes:
 
>  Does the batch fire only fire 2 at a time? 4?
>  
With the GM stuff, I believe most of the 8 cylinder applications
have injector circiuts A & B, and they alternate..  4's & 6's 
depend on the ECM. Some fire all injectors together, some 
alternate..  This refers to batch fires, not SEFI..


From ECMnut at aol.com  Wed Jan 20 03:59:47 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:59:47 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32440.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/19/99 10:14:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nacelp at bright.net writes:

> >
>  >Does the batch fire only fire 2 at a time? 4?
>  
>  Usually all 8
>  >


From ron.boley at worldnet.att.net  Wed Jan 20 04:16:14 1999
From: ron.boley at worldnet.att.net (ron.boley)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:16:14 -0500
Subject: Injector Voltage
Message-ID: <mailman.32441.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Curt,

They are typically driven from the battery rail (12-14.5v) and switched
through a transistor in basic form.  Design and technology varies from
OEM to OEM.  

Keep in mind that you don't want to overheat the injector. Keeping a
liquid running through the injector helps keep it cool.  If your
technical or have a technical buddy it may be easy to rig up a test
circuit to do the pulsing.

Best of luck
Ron


Curt Platteborze wrote:
> 
> I just made a test setup, fuel pump, reg and filter to test and clean my
> Bosche  fuel injectors before I reinstall them in my motor.
> 
> Can someone tell me the voltage that is needed to fire the injectors? I know
> they are driven by pulses from the PCM but not sure of the voltage.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Curt


From trinity at golden.net  Wed Jan 20 04:25:23 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:25:23 -0500
Subject: Converting vane type airflow meter to MAF
Message-ID: <mailman.32442.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I just joined this list a couple days ago so I applogize if this is a 
>repeat question.  I am trying to determine the feasibility of 
>converting the vane type airflow meter in my 88 BMW 535i to a MAF 
>system.  My main reasons for doing this are the increased airflow to 
>the engine (more HP) and the reliability (no moving parts).  My 
>questions are:
>
>1) Are my assumptions above correct?
>
>2) How difficult is this conversion to do?  I am an embedded systems 
>   programmer so the software isn't really a problem.  What I really 
>   need to know is how complex is the conversion algorithm?  Do I 
>   need to add a MAP or a trottle position sensor?
>
>3) Are there any books you can recommend for this type of project?
>
>4) Is there is good "hobbyist" MAF out there that will fit well to 
>   this engine (3.5l ~6600 RPM ~220 HP).  I can deal with voltage or 
>   pulse output.  I was thinking of using a sensor from a 5.0 l
>   Mustang since it would be easy to find a replacement if necessary.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Brian Franchuk
>
>

I did a VAF ("volume air flow" which uses a moving-core measureing device
similar to a vane) to MAF conversion on my Probe GT using a PIC16C71, a
12-bit Linear Tech DAC and a Ford 55mm MAF from a 1992 Taurus.

In the case of the 2.5L V6 in my PGT, I can't say I saw a large increase in
power though the effect is noticeable - maybe 5HP. However, 55mm is quite
small and I'll be trying a 70mm or 73mm MAF in the spring. These are
available from Vortech and whatnot for about $190US new. I'm not sure if an
otherwise stock 2.5L V6 of 164HP flows enough air even at 7000RPM to see
55mm as a restriction but 3.5L @ 220HP might.

I didn't add any additional sensors to the PGT though I might add an IAT
correction to the conversion this spring. I characterized the setup at about
20oC ambient but I find the car runs rich when it's cold out and maybe a tad
lean when it's hot. I have a little pot on the controller I can use to
adjust the offset a tad rich or lean but it'd be nice to have this done
automagically by sensing IAT and using that to correct the mass-to-volume
conversion.

Check out my web site at http://www.golden.net/~trinity and find the MAF
conversion page. It's quite cheesy and more of an outline to what I did than
a technical treatise but it does describe how I characterized the setup by
placing both sensors in series, datalogging both simultaneously and creating
a look-up table from the resulting data. I may have to re-do this when I
switch to a 70mm unit.

I'd go with the Ford unit though I'd look into a 70mm Vortech unit first. I
think the garden-variety 5.0L used a 55mm (or so) MAF and you may want
something larger with a motor as you describe. GM sensors aren't too bad
airflow wise but I found their 30-150Hz output too slow for high-speed
conversion using my PIC-box. I wanted the linear output of the Ford MAF for
this reason. I also like the design airflow-wise of the Ford unit over the
GM for a given package size.

I think some late-80s 300ZXs also came with a very-nice looking MAF (I saw
such a MAF in a wreckers once and asked where it came from and that's what
he told me...300ZX). It looked like it'd flow Hurricane Andrew though I know
nothing of the output characteristics.


--
 Mike



From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 20 04:32:26 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:32:26 -0500
Subject: Injector Voltage
Message-ID: <mailman.32443.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: ron.boley <ron.boley at worldnet.att.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Injector Voltage

Did you read the article about injector cleaning/testing off the home page?.
Worthwhile
Bruce


>Curt,
>They are typically driven from the battery rail (12-14.5v) and switched
>through a transistor in basic form.  Design and technology varies from
>OEM to OEM.
>Keep in mind that you don't want to overheat the injector. Keeping a
>liquid running through the injector helps keep it cool.  If your
>technical or have a technical buddy it may be easy to rig up a test
>circuit to do the pulsing.
>Best of luck
>Ron
>Curt Platteborze wrote:
>> I just made a test setup, fuel pump, reg and filter to test and clean my
>> Bosche  fuel injectors before I reinstall them in my motor.
>> Can someone tell me the voltage that is needed to fire the injectors? I
know
>> they are driven by pulses from the PCM but not sure of the voltage.
>> Thanks,
>> Curt




From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 20 04:38:14 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:38:14 -0500
Subject: Converting vane type airflow meter to MAF
Message-ID: <mailman.32444.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Franchuk <Brian.Franchuk at drizzle.mm.com>
To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:28 PM
Subject: Converting vane type airflow meter to MAF

Where ya going to get the MAF?.  How are you going to determine
exactly how it works?.  Is it's ouput linear, etc?.  How are you going
to test it's calibration?.
  Might just think of a MAP sensor.  
If anyway possible put a palm scope on it and see exactly what it's
output is from idle to WOT.
Cheers
Bruce




I just joined this list a couple days ago so I applogize if this is a 
repeat question.  I am trying to determine the feasibility of 
converting the vane type airflow meter in my 88 BMW 535i to a MAF 
system.  My main reasons for doing this are the increased airflow to 
the engine (more HP) and the reliability (no moving parts).  My 
questions are:

1) Are my assumptions above correct?

2) How difficult is this conversion to do?  I am an embedded systems 
   programmer so the software isn't really a problem.  What I really 
   need to know is how complex is the conversion algorithm?  Do I 
   need to add a MAP or a trottle position sensor?

3) Are there any books you can recommend for this type of project?

4) Is there is good "hobbyist" MAF out there that will fit well to 
   this engine (3.5l ~6600 RPM ~220 HP).  I can deal with voltage or 
   pulse output.  I was thinking of using a sensor from a 5.0 l
   Mustang since it would be easy to find a replacement if necessary.

Thanks.

Brian Franchuk




From twsharpe at mtco.com  Wed Jan 20 05:34:59 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:34:59 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32445.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>      This "ECU 6" sounds interesting.  suggestions
>
I Likehttp://www.steroidmicros.com/and especially
http://www.interlog.com/~techart/myfiles/ad912.html

The HC11, 12 and 16 all share (almost) common assembler source.

count me in     Tom



From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Wed Jan 20 05:51:35 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:51:35 -0500
Subject: HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32446.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Try lowering the float level, this may result in a slight hesitation until 
the main circuit can start up due to requiring additional signal to pull 
fuel, but should clean up the dribble problem.

Let me know if it works.


----------
From: 	Peter Fenske[SMTP:pfenske at bcit.bc.ca]
Sent: 	January 19, 1999 1:33 AM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: HALP Quadrajet dribbling



Howday all

Hope you don't mind a excursion into history

Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.

One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.

Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
this..

Any ideas please

TIA:peter





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M<RB="HL?P @Q.# "T6DM,32>- WP#- M4PM9,38*H.L#8!/08P5 +2]W"H<N
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M`````P`1$ ````! ``<P0.6H*#=$O@% ``@P0.6H*#=$O@$>`#T``0````4`
,``!213H@`````,";
`
end



From rwebb at ptialaska.net  Wed Jan 20 06:21:49 1999
From: rwebb at ptialaska.net (Ronald T. Webb)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:21:49 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32447.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


--------------72D4BA2A4234EE25C73AD49F
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Mike Pilkenton wrote:

>  Al,  I checked out this site that Ron mentioned and it looks very
> promising.  For these prices, it seems almost too costly to reinvent
> the processor PCB.  I never heard any other feedback postings but what
> do you all think about using one of these off-the-shelf boards (cheap,
> upgradable, and available now) and then just designing an I/O board to
> mate to it?

If it helps, I am currently using one of their products for a remote
monitoring project at work. I've had real good luck with the company.

The boards can be had based on the 87535 - which is a virtual clone of
the '552. It also comes with small C assembler, basic, and forth.- on
top of that, there are drivers for keypad and LCD display (in C and
forth) .

all for $79 - hard to pass up

--------------72D4BA2A4234EE25C73AD49F
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
&nbsp;
<p>Mike Pilkenton wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;<font color="#000000"><font size=-1>Al,&nbsp;
I checked out this site that Ron mentioned and it looks very promising.&nbsp;
For these prices, it seems almost too costly to reinvent the processor
PCB.&nbsp; I never heard any other feedback postings but what do you all
think about using one of these off-the-shelf boards (cheap, upgradable,
and available now) and then just designing an I/O board to mate to it?</font></font>&nbsp;</blockquote>
If it helps, I am currently using one of their products for a remote monitoring
project at work. I've had real good luck with the company.
<p>The boards can be had based on the 87535 - which is a virtual clone
of the '552. It also comes with small C assembler, basic, and forth.- on
top of that, there are drivers for keypad and LCD display (in C and forth)


From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Wed Jan 20 06:28:47 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:28:47 -0500
Subject: Another File Uploaded
Message-ID: <mailman.32448.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hey all,

I've uploaded another P6 ECU BIN file.
Again from an Aussie Holden, I'm not sure on this ones application though,
V6, V6S or V8, Man or Auto I don't know. I will endeavour to find out, but
it is from a Commodore.

File is  - BWPJ1640.BIN (128K size)

Bye

Ross

P.S - Notice ,only 8 character file name this time ;-)





From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Wed Jan 20 07:27:49 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:27:49 -0500
Subject: FINIS HALP Quadrajet dribbling
Message-ID: <mailman.32449.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

--0__=aevOGP0jESxF4xXiBV1z0eNIDXbBh77aLmTbUOT3fvGrBvjfIv0wzi4U
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline



Hi Marc and all..

Thanks all for the good suggestions.. Yep Marc I will try lowering
the float level to 1" but with the current smog settings the
car will barely move..This is not gonna help that much

Turns out in one of my quadrajet books the hotter chevy engines
had a air bypass in the throttle body. Mule engines didn't have
this open.. So I can drill some holes in the throttle body to pass
more air. Easier than wearing out throttle shafts.

Thanks again every body for the kind help
:peter





Marc Piccioni <mpiccioni at attcanada.net> on 01/19/99 09:41:15 PM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To:      "'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'"               
          <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>                 
                                                              
 cc:      (bcc: Peter Fenske/BCIT)                            
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: RE: HALP Quadrajet dribbling                        
                                                              








Try lowering the float level, this may result in a slight hesitation until
the main circuit can start up due to requiring additional signal to pull
fuel, but should clean up the dribble problem.

Let me know if it works.


----------
From:     Peter Fenske[SMTP:pfenske at bcit.bc.ca]
Sent:     January 19, 1999 1:33 AM
To:  diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject:  Re: HALP Quadrajet dribbling



Howday all

Hope you don't mind a excursion into history

Relative has a quadrajet equiped car which must pass smog
To get the cat to light CO must stay below 1%
We can get this adjustment but dribbling from the
primary venturi booster sets in.. randomly.

One minute the CO is 0 % cat on and next
minute is 5% cat drowned not lit.

Does anyone remember how to cure venturi dribbling
I managed to do this once by increasing the idle
feed restrictions but smog won't allow me to do
this..

Any ideas please

TIA:peter






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From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Wed Jan 20 09:25:01 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:25:01 -0500
Subject: Mitsubishi VR Problems
Message-ID: <mailman.32450.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>Hi
>
>I have 1997 Mitsubishi VR (4-cyl, 4G63 Injection Engine) that might have a
>problem.
>After a long time of driving(approx 3-4 Hours) there is some problem
>in the engine that the RPM is choppy (like run out of gas) when a normal
>driving and this is not always happen, just sometimes occur. I dont know
>what is happening at the engine. What is a general solution for this
symptom?
>and which part should be inspection for checking.
>
>Thank you
>

Check the resistance of the stepper motor used for idle (near the throttle
body), it's a 6 pin plug, remove it, and measure across the outside top
pins.

[][][]
[][][]

You should get about 70 Ohms, same for the bottom row. If any of these are
open replace the stepper (This is a VERY common fault with Mits). Even
better when the stepper goes short and takes the ECM out with it!!.

HTH

Ross Myers



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Wed Jan 20 15:43:10 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles  Brooks)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:43:10 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32451.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>I think what I'm going to do is buy the FIS PROM for the 
TPI setup and dump it to study. After I buy a programmable 
system I'll have the FIS PROM image to start with and fall 
back on in the event I goof something up. Does that sound 
like a reasonable line of pursuit, or a cop out?! LoL! <<

>>What's FIS, and what are you working on?, ecm?. <<

Bruce, I'll be swapping an 85 TPI system onto a 406. I
believe that the ECU is a 780 from what some of the members
have posted and mailed me. Fuel Injection Specialties (FIS)
is a company in Florida that does quite a bit of custom
EFI stuff. They've been very helpfull in planning my project
and obtaining advice, part numbers, etc.

Charles Brooks


From amattei at mindspring.com  Wed Jan 20 16:08:21 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:08:21 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32452.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

ECMnut at aol.com wrote:
> 
> With the GM stuff, I believe most of the 8 cylinder applications
> have injector circiuts A & B, and they alternate..  

I popped open my 165 ECM the other day ('89 TPI 350) to check this out,
and though it has a left bank / right bank wiring, the traces are
soldered together on the ECM board. So, in the case of the Chevy TPI
8-cylinder motor, they all fire together. :) (IIRC, only has one
injector driver inside the ECM too.)

-Andrew


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jan 20 16:13:26 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:13:26 -0500
Subject: Converting vane type airflow meter to MAF
Message-ID: <mailman.32453.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> I just joined this list a couple days ago so I applogize if this is a 
> repeat question.  I am trying to determine the feasibility of 
> converting the vane type airflow meter in my 88 BMW 535i to a MAF 
> system.  My main reasons for doing this are the increased airflow to 
> the engine (more HP) and the reliability (no moving parts).  My 
> questions are:
> 
> 1) Are my assumptions above correct?
> 
> 2) How difficult is this conversion to do?  I am an embedded systems 
>    programmer so the software isn't really a problem.  What I really 
>    need to know is how complex is the conversion algorithm?  Do I 
>    need to add a MAP or a trottle position sensor?
> 
> 3) Are there any books you can recommend for this type of project?
> 
> 4) Is there is good "hobbyist" MAF out there that will fit well to 
>    this engine (3.5l ~6600 RPM ~220 HP).  I can deal with voltage or 
>    pulse output.  I was thinking of using a sensor from a 5.0 l
>    Mustang since it would be easy to find a replacement if necessary.
> 
> Thanks.
I did a simple intercept box using a PIC16C73 and a op-amp.
Used voltage divider to drop 10V vane output to PIC A/D modified
voltage in code using RAM interpolation  and outputed 10bit PWM to 
gain 2 intergration amp. Was designed for O2 sensor feedback.
There are some Asian kits to eleminate also.
alex  


From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Wed Jan 20 16:29:28 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:29:28 -0500
Subject: GM TPI in the 400 SBC
Message-ID: <mailman.32454.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> --Boundary_(ID_/S8U0Iqe/HM7HlfYTbqi1Q)
-> Content-type: application/ms-tnef; name=winmail.dat
-> Content-disposition: attachment; filename=winmail.dat
-> Content-transfer-encoding: base64
->
->
eJ8+Ii0XAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS
->  5NaWNy
->
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->  EAKAEB
->
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->  MALgAA
->
AAAAAwA2AAAAAAAeAHAAAQAAABoAAABSRTogR00gVFBJIGluIHRoZSA0MDAgU0JDAAAAAg
->  FxAAEA


 Do you have that in English?

==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                                                                                                        


From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Wed Jan 20 16:30:30 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:30:30 -0500
Subject: Converting vane type airflow meter to MAF
Message-ID: <mailman.32455.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> repeat question.  I am trying to determine the feasibility of
-> converting the vane type airflow meter in my 88 BMW 535i to a MAF
-> system.  My main reasons for doing this are the increased airflow to
-> the engine (more HP) and the reliability (no moving parts).

 I had the opportunity to pick through a pallet full of used Bosch and
Japanese vane air meters recently.  I noticed all of them had much
stiffer springs on the vane than I had expected from the descriptions in
the service manuals.  The meter I pulled off a running Supra was also
quite stiff.

 For part throttle the restriction from the air meter probably isn't an
issue, but I'm curious as to how much restriction a normal OEM vane air
meter has at wide open throttle.

 If your BMW is running, how about putting a vacuum guage downstream of
the meter and doing a few full-throttle runs with it?   Most OEM carb
setups will pull two to three inches of mercury at red line at full
throttle, in my experience.

==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                                                         


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Wed Jan 20 17:52:26 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:52:26 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32456.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Andrew K. Mattei wrote:

> ECMnut at aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > With the GM stuff, I believe most of the 8 cylinder applications
> > have injector circiuts A & B, and they alternate..  
> 
> I popped open my 165 ECM the other day ('89 TPI 350) to check this out,
> and though it has a left bank / right bank wiring, the traces are
> soldered together on the ECM board. So, in the case of the Chevy TPI
> 8-cylinder motor, they all fire together. :) (IIRC, only has one
> injector driver inside the ECM too.)
> 

Looking in the 93 Z28 programming there appear to be two different
drivers.  They are using two different timer registers to time the
injector open time, which would lead me to believe that they are
handled differently.    

				Roger



From thergen at svn.net  Wed Jan 20 18:10:39 1999
From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:10:39 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32457.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Does your '93 Z28 also have two O2 sensors?  This would make sense with
two separate timers controlling separate drivers.

Tom

On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Roger Heflin wrote:

> 
> 
> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Andrew K. Mattei wrote:
> 
> > ECMnut at aol.com wrote:
> > > 
> > > With the GM stuff, I believe most of the 8 cylinder applications
> > > have injector circiuts A & B, and they alternate..  
> > 
> > I popped open my 165 ECM the other day ('89 TPI 350) to check this out,
> > and though it has a left bank / right bank wiring, the traces are
> > soldered together on the ECM board. So, in the case of the Chevy TPI
> > 8-cylinder motor, they all fire together. :) (IIRC, only has one
> > injector driver inside the ECM too.)
> > 
> 
> Looking in the 93 Z28 programming there appear to be two different
> drivers.  They are using two different timer registers to time the
> injector open time, which would lead me to believe that they are
> handled differently.    
> 
> 				Roger
> 



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Wed Jan 20 18:35:43 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:35:43 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32458.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 thergen at svn.net wrote:

> Does your '93 Z28 also have two O2 sensors?  This would make sense with
> two separate timers controlling separate drivers.
> 
> Tom
> 
Yes it does.  And I guess that would make sense, with one O2 sensor
what is the point of not firing them all the same (8 at once).   The
93 has an O2 sensor for each bank so fires 4 at a time.

				Roger



From mpitts at netspeak.com  Wed Jan 20 19:08:51 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:08:51 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32459.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


In my '93 4.3L CPI PCM, there are also two drivers, 
each handled with two separate output compare timers. 
But, in the case of this calibration, they are fired  
identically.

One driver fires the CPI injector and the other is 
unused.  I am replacing the CPI injector with 6 
saturated type injectors.

I've thought of using one driver to fire 3 injectors 
180 degrees out of phase from the other 3 injectors to 
lessen the shock on the fuel rail. Would it even matter?? 
Is this what they call "bank to bank" injection??

Thanks,
-Mike

-----Original Message-----
Looking in the 93 Z28 programming there appear to be two different
drivers.  They are using two different timer registers to time the
injector open time, which would lead me to believe that they are
handled differently.    

				Roger


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Wed Jan 20 19:16:01 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:16:01 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32460.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi All

Gm does many different things..Some ecms like the 165 and the 730
have only one injector driver. Some like the 749 and the 747 have
two drivers. Usually though the injectors are grouped into 2
even if one driver is used..
The pcms 94 up have 8 drivers for sequential..

Also in the code is a pwm timer for synch injection and a asynch timer
for AE injection. so you will see two calculations for fuel.

There are also control bits for selection fire per rev or alternate bank
fire every 2nd rev(tbi)

gl:peter




From alipper at cardozo.org  Wed Jan 20 19:27:26 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:27:26 -0500
Subject: ECU6 EFI system construction
Message-ID: <mailman.32461.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

You folks have some good points about using an off-the-shelf processor board
rather than re-inventing one.  In fact, this is the way the last version of
ECU6 was built.  The current ECU6 processor board has already been designed and
built (I've been using one for over a year now).  The reason I didn't stick
with an off the shelf unit was 1) It didn't have the flexibility to incorporate
things like a Watchdog-timer reset, flash memory and battery-backed RAM in as
neat a way as I was looking for (at least not at the right price).  I really
tried to make it work this way, and eventually gave in to the fact that it
really wasn't much tougher to add the CPU and support components than to just
build the interface stuff on a PC board.  Not to say there isn't a board out
there which really will do the trick cheaply, but just a note on my personal
experience with it.  In either case, any help people can offer is great -
especially with programming.  

                                Al



>
>>
>> From: Ronald T. Webb <<mailto:rwebb at ptialaska.net>rwebb at ptialaska.net>
>> To:
>> <mailto:diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>>
<<mailto:diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>> Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: ECU6 EFI system construction
>>
>> Greetings - 
>>
>> This "ECU 6" sounds interesting. 2 suggestions 
>>
>> 1- Before deciding to build our own processor board, look at 
>> <www.newmicros.htm>New Micro's 
>>     They have several boards - fully functional - in the $30 to $80 range...
>>
>>
>> 2 - Development software is easiest if not done with the cheap public domain
>> stuff - 
>>      My own favorite is Embedded Workbench by  <www.iar.htm>IAR . Their C
>> development        system for the 8751 is like working with the old Turbo
>> Pascal. They have a free demo version that's still better than small C. 
>>
>> Just a suggestion. I also would get involved. Hardware or software... 
>>   
>>  
>





From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Jan 20 20:03:06 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:03:06 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32462.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

GM is hard to figure out.  The 2.8l and some 3.1l v-6 engines used a
double batch fire
arrangement, even though there was only one O2 sensor,.  Then, the
Vortech 4.3 used a single injector with 6 nozzles firing
simultaneously, and I think the Vortech smallblock is the same. 
However, the 7.4l vortech has 8 injectors and IIRC is sequential. 
I'll bet the 88,89 vintage Caddies were not single batch fire, though.
Nor were the 86 GN's. Then they go to extra lengths to redesign a
transfer case for a magnesium case because it's 8lbs lighter than
aluminum.  Ya just gotta wonder sometimes.
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 thergen at svn.net wrote:
> 
> > Does your '93 Z28 also have two O2 sensors?  This would make sense with
> > two separate timers controlling separate drivers.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> Yes it does.  And I guess that would make sense, with one O2 sensor
> what is the point of not firing them all the same (8 at once).   The
> 93 has an O2 sensor for each bank so fires 4 at a time.
> 
>                                 Roger



From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Jan 20 20:33:54 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:33:54 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32463.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> In my '93 4.3L CPI PCM, there are also two drivers,
> each handled with two separate output compare timers.
> But, in the case of this calibration, they are fired
> identically.
> 
> One driver fires the CPI injector and the other is
> unused.  I am replacing the CPI injector with 6
> saturated type injectors.
> 
> I've thought of using one driver to fire 3 injectors
> 180 degrees out of phase from the other 3 injectors to
> lessen the shock on the fuel rail. Would it even matter??
> Is this what they call "bank to bank" injection??
> 
> Thanks,
> -Mike
> 

Double batch fire.  Used in 1987 Olds Cutlass Supreme w/ 2.8l, for
example.
Shannen

> -----Original Message-----
> Looking in the 93 Z28 programming there appear to be two different
> drivers.  They are using two different timer registers to time the
> injector open time, which would lead me to believe that they are
> handled differently.
> 
>                                 Roger



From kenkelly at lucent.com  Wed Jan 20 21:37:16 1999
From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:37:16 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32464.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This only makes sense if the injectors are fired as left
bank and right bank. I would think you would gain more
benefit by grouping them in firing order rather than by
bank.

		Ken

Roger Heflin wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 thergen at svn.net wrote:
> 
> > Does your '93 Z28 also have two O2 sensors?  This would make sense with
> > two separate timers controlling separate drivers.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> Yes it does.  And I guess that would make sense, with one O2 sensor
> what is the point of not firing them all the same (8 at once).   The
> 93 has an O2 sensor for each bank so fires 4 at a time.
> 
>                                 Roger


From lkurek at anl.gov  Wed Jan 20 21:45:58 1999
From: lkurek at anl.gov (Kurek, Larry)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:45:58 -0500
Subject: GM 4.3L CPI Complete Manifold F/S
Message-ID: <mailman.32465.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If anyone is interested, I have a complete CPI system out of a 93 4.3L S10
available. It does not come with a harness/ECM, but otherwise includes all
of the hard parts. Best Offer.

I bought this as a project to update my 87 Astro to CPI, but have since
decided on stuffing a 350 in there :)

Let me know privately...

TTYL!

Larry


From lens at nydev.com  Wed Jan 20 23:05:59 1999
From: lens at nydev.com (LS)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:05:59 -0500
Subject: Load Questions from a newbee
Message-ID: <mailman.32466.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

What is this concept of load?
I hear it is calculated by MAF, by MAP, by Throttle Position,
by Air Flow meter. 
Any idea on the formulas?

Sorry if the question I am asking was already addressed.

	Thanks Len.


From lens at nydev.com  Wed Jan 20 23:22:57 1999
From: lens at nydev.com (LS)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:22:57 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question
Message-ID: <mailman.32467.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I have idenitcal question on the Motronic DME 0261 200 088 
and KLR 0227 400 145 units from Porsche 951 (944T)

MCU??? markings DME:
iB 57312  8738

MCU??? markings KLR:
iB 57391  8721    

Anybody dissassembled Bosch ECU's?

Fooled around with prom tables (fuel timing boost)?

How about AFM to MAF replacement in software?

                  Thanks Len.


From rotax at ludd.luth.se  Thu Jan 21 00:00:12 1999
From: rotax at ludd.luth.se (Daniel R. Henriksson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:00:12 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question
Message-ID: <mailman.32468.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

According to LS:
> I have idenitcal question on the Motronic DME 0261 200 088 
> and KLR 0227 400 145 units from Porsche 951 (944T)
> 
> MCU??? markings DME:
> iB 57312  8738
> 
> MCU??? markings KLR:
> iB 57391  8721    
> 
> Anybody dissassembled Bosch ECU's?
> 
Well, i've done some work on the 0261 200 012 box, 
it's a first generation Motronic found on turbo Volvos.

You can see some of my work at: 
www.ludd.luth.se:/~rotax/motronic.html

I'm currently working on a LH-Jetronic box (0280 000 534),
this system comes from a Saab 9000 Turbo.

Info about my findings will soon be available at:
www.ludd.luth.seL/~rotax/lh-jetronic.html

> How about AFM to MAF replacement in software?
> 
Well, i've started to build a converter-box, based on a PIC16C74
processor, nothing finished yet.

Do you have a bin file of your Motronic PROM?
I might be able to tell what type of CPU your box uses by looking
at the code.

/Daniel Henriksson


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Thu Jan 21 00:01:03 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:01:03 -0500
Subject: TPI on a 406
Message-ID: <mailman.32469.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

OK I just picked up all the TPI hardware. The ECU turned out
to be a 165 unit but the guy I bought it from swears it came
out of a 1985 Camaro. Is it possible that the 165 was used
toward the end of the year?

The harness is a complete stock harness, so I have a lot of
ringing to do to identify all the plugs and non-essential
portions of the harness.

Charles Brooks


From ferrariformulauno at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 21 00:07:52 1999
From: ferrariformulauno at yahoo.com (Andre Grandi)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:07:52 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question
Message-ID: <mailman.32470.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Len,

I think its the same as my 1985 745i which is factory turbo. The
processor in the DME is a 
CDP 1802 RCA type. Hard to find much stuff on this 'ol chip any more.
I dumped the prom in my dme but have yet to dissasemble it...Let me
know what you find..

Later,\
Andre




---LS <lens at nydev.com> wrote:
>
> I have idenitcal question on the Motronic DME 0261 200 088 
> and KLR 0227 400 145 units from Porsche 951 (944T)
> 
> MCU??? markings DME:
> iB 57312  8738
> 
> MCU??? markings KLR:
> iB 57391  8721    
> 
> Anybody dissassembled Bosch ECU's?
> 
> Fooled around with prom tables (fuel timing boost)?
> 
> How about AFM to MAF replacement in software?
> 
>                   Thanks Len.
> 

==

Andre
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Thu Jan 21 00:13:38 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:13:38 -0500
Subject: Load Questions from a newbee
Message-ID: <mailman.32471.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

It's an estimation of the load on the engine.  It's not just RPM because
you can be at high rpm with little load, like on the highway or revving
in neutral.

It's also not just throttle position, because you can have WOT without
load, like revving in neutral.

It's basically airflow divided by RPM.  airflow is either measured by
MAF, or estimated by MAP.

--steve

LS wrote:
> 
> What is this concept of load?
> I hear it is calculated by MAF, by MAP, by Throttle Position,
> by Air Flow meter.
> Any idea on the formulas?
> 
> Sorry if the question I am asking was already addressed.
> 
>         Thanks Len.


From gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu  Thu Jan 21 00:46:36 1999
From: gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu (Gregory A. Parmer)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:46:36 -0500
Subject: Load Questions from a newbee
Message-ID: <mailman.32472.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, LS wrote:
> What is this concept of load?
> I hear it is calculated by MAF, by MAP, by Throttle Position,

As I understand it...for GMs anyway...load on a
MAP system is a pressure, measured in kPa by the
MAP sensor. Essentially the inverse of vaccuum. 
Load on a MAF system is in grams/sec as measured
by the MAF sensor.

Hope that's correct and helpful. Looking at
some of the example software for editing tables
may give a better idea of how it's used. See
the website/ftp site for those.

-greg




From twsharpe at mtco.com  Thu Jan 21 01:58:04 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:58:04 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32473.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Ken Kelly wrote:

> This only makes sense if the injectors are fired as left
> bank and right bank. I would think you would gain more
> benefit by grouping them in firing order rather than by
> bank.

My ProFlow fires 4 sets of 2 injectors 1-8, 4-3, 6-5, 7-2. foue
circuits/timers/drivers, one O2 sensor.   Tom



From spoonie at deltanet.com  Thu Jan 21 03:27:15 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:27:15 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32474.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Tom
Your Edelbrock ProFlo is typical on several other EFI system's
actualy the tests I have run show little on no differace between L/R and
other systems.
In fact all EFI are on almost 100% at or near WOT.
Ward


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Tom Sharpe
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 5:59 PM
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths




Ken Kelly wrote:

> This only makes sense if the injectors are fired as left
> bank and right bank. I would think you would gain more
> benefit by grouping them in firing order rather than by
> bank.

My ProFlow fires 4 sets of 2 injectors 1-8, 4-3, 6-5, 7-2. foue
circuits/timers/drivers, one O2 sensor.   Tom



From spoonie at deltanet.com  Thu Jan 21 03:30:15 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:30:15 -0500
Subject: Mitsubishi VR Problems
Message-ID: <mailman.32475.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Nun 1, Check your fuel preesure and or fuel filters. 
Ward Spoonemore

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Ross Myers
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 12:06 AM
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Mitsubishi VR Problems




>Hi
>
>I have 1997 Mitsubishi VR (4-cyl, 4G63 Injection Engine) that might have a
>problem.
>After a long time of driving(approx 3-4 Hours) there is some problem
>in the engine that the RPM is choppy (like run out of gas) when a normal
>driving and this is not always happen, just sometimes occur. I dont know
>what is happening at the engine. What is a general solution for this
symptom?
>and which part should be inspection for checking.
>
>Thank you
>

Check the resistance of the stepper motor used for idle (near the throttle
body), it's a 6 pin plug, remove it, and measure across the outside top
pins.

[][][]
[][][]

You should get about 70 Ohms, same for the bottom row. If any of these are
open replace the stepper (This is a VERY common fault with Mits). Even
better when the stepper goes short and takes the ECM out with it!!.

HTH

Ross Myers



From spoonie at deltanet.com  Thu Jan 21 03:32:53 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:32:53 -0500
Subject: Load Questions from a newbee
Message-ID: <mailman.32476.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

MAP is absolute pressure. this is important is you plan to drive up the hill
to a lower ambient pressure.
KPA is 105 Kpa = 30 In MAP or about 0 in vac.
Ward

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Gregory A.
Parmer
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 4:47 PM
To: DIY_EFI
Subject: Re: Load Questions from a newbee



On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, LS wrote:
> What is this concept of load?
> I hear it is calculated by MAF, by MAP, by Throttle Position,

As I understand it...for GMs anyway...load on a
MAP system is a pressure, measured in kPa by the
MAP sensor. Essentially the inverse of vaccuum.
Load on a MAF system is in grams/sec as measured
by the MAF sensor.

Hope that's correct and helpful. Looking at
some of the example software for editing tables
may give a better idea of how it's used. See
the website/ftp site for those.

-greg




From spoonie at deltanet.com  Thu Jan 21 04:12:37 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:12:37 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32477.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Roger
Most GM systems change the injection triggering during various phases of
operation. Most start out as A - B batch and fire  every 12.5 msec, or on
every other Distributor Reference Pulse.

Some start out in int 12 msec mode and switch to A - B, some never come out
of the 12 msec mode. These features are programmable.

Some ECM's have programmable saturated drivers or "peak and Hold" and some
have variable phasing like spark advance. I tried all of these features and
could not tell much difference.

Ward

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Roger
Heflin
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 9:52 AM
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths




On Wed, 20 Jan 1999, Andrew K. Mattei wrote:

> ECMnut at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > With the GM stuff, I believe most of the 8 cylinder applications
> > have injector circiuts A & B, and they alternate..
>
> I popped open my 165 ECM the other day ('89 TPI 350) to check this out,
> and though it has a left bank / right bank wiring, the traces are
> soldered together on the ECM board. So, in the case of the Chevy TPI
> 8-cylinder motor, they all fire together. :) (IIRC, only has one
> injector driver inside the ECM too.)
>

Looking in the 93 Z28 programming there appear to be two different
drivers.  They are using two different timer registers to time the
injector open time, which would lead me to believe that they are
handled differently.

				Roger



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Thu Jan 21 04:16:17 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:16:17 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32478.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Ward Spoonemore wrote:

> Tom
> Your Edelbrock ProFlo is typical on several other EFI system's
> actualy the tests I have run show little on no differace between L/R and
> other systems.
> In fact all EFI are on almost 100% at or near WOT.
> Ward

There is an ongoing discussion about the need to inject all (or most) of the
fuel while the intake valve is open, probably starting before the valve
opens and ending before it is closed. It would require large P&H injectors
and lotta of pressure.

Any ideas or comments (or experiences).     Regards  Tom





From ECMnut at aol.com  Thu Jan 21 04:23:47 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:23:47 -0500
Subject: TPI on a 406
Message-ID: <mailman.32479.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/20/99 7:04:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net writes:

> OK I just picked up all the TPI hardware. The ECU turned out
>  to be a 165 unit but the guy I bought it from swears it came
>  out of a 1985 Camaro. Is it possible that the 165 was used
>  toward the end of the year?

Boneyard books show:
1226870 in 85,  1227165 in 86 & 87...
HTH's
Mike V


From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 21 04:55:00 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:55:00 -0500
Subject: TPI on a 406
Message-ID: <mailman.32480.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: DIY_EFI Fuel Injection List <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 7:12 PM
Subject: TPI on a 406

I'd check the pinout real close, the 6870, and 165 both have two
connector ecms, and maybe someone threw the 165 inna pile,
thinking it was the same thing.  I don't know if there is a 
difference in pinouts, but if the harness doesn't match the
pinout for a 165 then that's you answer, there is a 165 pinout
at 332 FTP.
   I've seen mechanical misfits at years ends, but never
emissions stuff.
Bruce


>OK I just picked up all the TPI hardware. The ECU turned out
>to be a 165 unit but the guy I bought it from swears it came
>out of a 1985 Camaro. Is it possible that the 165 was used
>toward the end of the year?
>
>The harness is a complete stock harness, so I have a lot of
>ringing to do to identify all the plugs and non-essential
>portions of the harness.
>
>Charles Brooks
>



From sganz at wgn.net  Thu Jan 21 05:00:02 1999
From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:00:02 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32481.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

One thing that is very inportant to remember about injection CIS vs Batch
vs SFI is on cars that have boost it is a problem to deal with lots of
boost when all injectors (or a bunch) are opened at the same time. SFI does
much better in those situations, as it is easier to deal with the fuel
pressure vs boost pressure problems.  The ideal system for me that would be
very easy to do was a concept that I posted a millenium ago, just do a SFI
Batch system (Pat Pend, (c) etc), where they are not in sync to anything,
but follow a SFI pattern. No engine sensor or sync is required (read
simple) and you get most all of the needed SFI benny's. No fuss no muss.
The over-engineering problem has plagued the efi332 project for sometime,
and getting something simple running is the way to go!

Some rambelings 

Sandy


From sganz at wgn.net  Thu Jan 21 05:02:55 1999
From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:02:55 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32482.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I think that injection of all the fuel during a period has some SMOG/Econ
bennifits, but can't remember if any power was gained (anyone?).  Others
have stated that the evaporation of the fuel sitting on the closed valve is
better then squirting raw liquid fuel (hard to burn) into a cylinder.  I
think that is why you don't see much power difference between SFI and BATCH
systems.

Sandy

At 10:17 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>Ward Spoonemore wrote:
>
>> Tom
>> Your Edelbrock ProFlo is typical on several other EFI system's
>> actualy the tests I have run show little on no differace between L/R and
>> other systems.
>> In fact all EFI are on almost 100% at or near WOT.
>> Ward
>
>There is an ongoing discussion about the need to inject all (or most) of the
>fuel while the intake valve is open, probably starting before the valve
>opens and ending before it is closed. It would require large P&H injectors
>and lotta of pressure.
>
>Any ideas or comments (or experiences).     Regards  Tom
>
>



From EdDSP at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jan 21 05:25:29 1999
From: EdDSP at ix.netcom.com (Ed)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:25:29 -0500
Subject: heated O2 sensor circuit question
Message-ID: <mailman.32483.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I plan on relocating my O2 sensor further down into the header since the
original spot reads off only 2 of the 4 cylinders. Thing is, the
original sensor is a single wire, and I think I'd need a heated one for
the new location. 
Any idea how to wire the heater circuit? Is it safe to wire the circuit
to a switched (engine on) power source or was the heaer designed to shut
off once it reaches operating temp?

-Ed


From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Thu Jan 21 06:58:53 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 01:58:53 -0500
Subject: Yet more Aussie GM Bin's Uploaded.
Message-ID: <mailman.32484.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

For those who scan Hex files for fun!!!

This lot is used in the VR & VS Holden Commodore (1994+).

BLCB is for 3.8L V6 Auto (Sorry no Numbers)
BLCD is for 3.8L V6 Man  (Sorry no Numbers)
BLJX6413 is for 5.0L V8 Man
BWCS9976 is for Police versions (not sure on trans config, probably V-6
auto).

Strange thing, it seems that the BLCB & BWCS don't have a Checksum!!, only
the Manual BIN's do $520C at $0006-$0007.

I know all these cars have Serial Data security check, gee if anybody finds
this disable byte I'll be their best friend ;-)

Get them all at the DIY_FTP.

Any thoughts on the checksums guys, or should I say lack of?.

Regards

Ross Myers




From aris at exmail.panafon.gr  Thu Jan 21 09:12:16 1999
From: aris at exmail.panafon.gr (HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:12:16 -0500
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32485.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Matt,
	the secret of a DINO engine always was (and is) tip top
ignition, in all aspects of it. The mechanical advance would be adequate
but not optimal. Most important, do not forget that what we pursue here
is a hobby!

Any way, as you will read else where in this thread, I have managed to
find what I am looking for with a little help from a friend.

Regards
Aris

 ----------
From: Matt Beaubien
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Electronic timing advance
Date: 18 January 1999 22:20

> The next now is to disable the existing (horrible) centrifugal advance
> mechanism, which is easy.

Can you just not fix the centrifugal advance and use it with the Crane
(formerly Allison) unit?  That may be your easiest solution.

> My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ...
> "... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
> unit
> implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least
16
> sites.
> 4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
> degrees of detonation induced retard.
> 5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
> breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
> (already fitted in my car)...."

Did you check out the Accel 49340 timing computer?  I'm not sure it it's
compatible with your optical output but you can talk to them and find
out.
More info can be found at www.mrgasket.com/accelnew.htm.

There's not provision for a detonation sensor.  They tend to be pretty
engine specific but there's a company called J&S that make such a device
(I don't know much about it).

That's about it.


Matt Beaubien
mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
Edmonton, Alberta



From aris at exmail.panafon.gr  Thu Jan 21 09:12:21 1999
From: aris at exmail.panafon.gr (HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:12:21 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32486.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks for the interest.
After a thorough check in Crane?s web site, I perceive CRN-9000-0001 not
as a proper timing advance computer, but rather, a device to ADD to a
working (presumably mechanical) advance mechanis, giving you the
opportunity to further MODIFY it.
Best regards
 ----------
From: mssinc at zoomnet.net
To: aris
Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
Date: 17 January 1999 15:20


Saw your post, thought this might be a place to look

Look at a Crane CRN-9000-0001 timing control box/rev limiter, if all
else
fails call/write crane..they are a helpful bunch.


At 12:11 PM 1/17/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Matt, Bruce & Robert,
>
>after following your inputs and using the web as much as I could, I
have
>now found and ordered a XR 700 ignition unit from Crane Cams which WILL
>definitely fit the original Magnetti Marell distributor of the Dino
>engine and replace the twin contact breakers with an optical pick up.
>This most definitely covers adequately the first part of my project,
>i.e. replacement of the antiquated distributor points!
>
>The next now is to disable the existing (horrible) centrifugal advance
>mechanism, which is easy.
>
>However the 3rd is to then need to insert a digital programmable
>ignition advance / retard mapping unit between the optical interruptor
>output and the ignition unit.
>
>Hmmmm after looking in the WWW for ages I have been unable to locate
>such a unit devoid of other frills or compromises (e.g. just turbo or
>Nitrous Oxide retard which really is quite different from what I need).
>
>My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ...
>"... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
>unit
>implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least
16
>sites.
>4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
>degrees of detonation induced retard.
>5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
>breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
>(already fitted in my car)...."
>
>Any ideas will be highly appreciated.
>
>Regards
>Aris
> ----------
>From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800
>To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Electronic timing advance
>Date: 09 January 1999 23:48
>
>Matt, Bruce & Robert thank you very much. I will use your interesting
>inputs to begin assembling a viable solution to my DINO engine problem.
>I guess I will start looking for the web sites of Allison, Crane
>Camshafts, Holley & MSD.
>
>Bruce, can you pls provide info about the Australian DIY kits you
>mention in your reply. Concerning the diy_efi web page and project
>332EFI, I am aware of it but at this instant I have too litlle time to
>get involved so deeply!
>
>Regards
>
>Aris
> ----------
>From: Matt Beaubien
>To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Electronic timing advance
>Date: 08 January 1999 23:28
>
>Bruce,
>
>> >The requirements are relatively simple:
>> >1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick
up
>> >arranged to fire every 60 degrees.
>>
>> Crane Camshafts in Florida, USA, makes a universal optical ignition.
>>
>> >2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism.
>> >3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
unit
>> >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at
least
>16
>> >sites.
>>
>> Commercially MSD, Holley make said units,  kits are available from
>> Australia, for a DIY.  Use the optics to trigger a oem ecm, and just
>> use the ignition part of that.  If you want to do a total DIY visit
>332EFI,
>> you can get there off the diy_efi home page.
>
>The Accel 49340 (IIRC) allows what the orginal poster is looking for.
It
>has adjustable vacuum/boost advance/retard as well as a N20 input. It
>may
>require a magnetic reluctor-type signal to function though.
>
>I don't think MSD makes something similar (you can only adjust the
slope
>and max advance as far as I know), and I'm not too familiar with the
>Holley stuff. The Accel piece is ~$150-$200.
>
>Hope that helps.
>
>Matt.
>
>
>



From aris at exmail.panafon.gr  Thu Jan 21 09:12:28 1999
From: aris at exmail.panafon.gr (HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:12:28 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32487.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Yes  Todd!
This is really EXACTLY what I was looking for!!! I believe this device
will more than serve my needs in all aspects, e.g. size & volume,
adaptability and cost.
Thank a lot for the lead!
Regards,
Aris

 ----------
From: todd israels
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
Date: 17 January 1999 19:32


At 12:11 PM 1/17/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Matt, Bruce & Robert,
>
>after following your inputs and using the web as much as I could, I
have
>now found and ordered a XR 700 ignition unit from Crane Cams which WILL
>definitely fit the original Magnetti Marell distributor of the Dino
>engine and replace the twin contact breakers with an optical pick up.
>This most definitely covers adequately the first part of my project,
>i.e. replacement of the antiquated distributor points!
>
>The next now is to disable the existing (horrible) centrifugal advance
>mechanism, which is easy.
>
>However the 3rd is to then need to insert a digital programmable
>ignition advance / retard mapping unit between the optical interruptor
>output and the ignition unit.
>
>Hmmmm after looking in the WWW for ages I have been unable to locate
>such a unit devoid of other frills or compromises (e.g. just turbo or
>Nitrous Oxide retard which really is quite different from what I need).
>
>My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ...
>"... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
>unit
>implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least
16
>sites.
>4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
>degrees of detonation induced retard.
>5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
>breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
>(already fitted in my car)...."
>
>Any ideas will be highly appreciated.
>
>Regards
>Aris
> ----------
>From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800
>To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Electronic timing advance
>Date: 09 January 1999 23:48
>
>Matt, Bruce & Robert thank you very much. I will use your interesting
>inputs to begin assembling a viable solution to my DINO engine problem.
>I guess I will start looking for the web sites of Allison, Crane
>Camshafts, Holley & MSD.
>
>Bruce, can you pls provide info about the Australian DIY kits you
>mention in your reply. Concerning the diy_efi web page and project
>332EFI, I am aware of it but at this instant I have too litlle time to
>get involved so deeply!
>
>Regards
>
>Aris
> ----------
>From: Matt Beaubien
>To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Electronic timing advance
>Date: 08 January 1999 23:28
>
>Bruce,
>
>> >The requirements are relatively simple:
>> >1. Replace the existing twin contact breakers with an optical pick
up
>> >arranged to fire every 60 degrees.
>>
>> Crane Camshafts in Florida, USA, makes a universal optical ignition.
>>
>> >2. Disable the original advance / retard mechanism.
>> >3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
unit
>> >implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at
least
>16
>> >sites.
>>
>> Commercially MSD, Holley make said units,  kits are available from
>> Australia, for a DIY.  Use the optics to trigger a oem ecm, and just
>> use the ignition part of that.  If you want to do a total DIY visit
>332EFI,
>> you can get there off the diy_efi home page.
>
>The Accel 49340 (IIRC) allows what the orginal poster is looking for.
It
>has adjustable vacuum/boost advance/retard as well as a N20 input. It
>may
>require a magnetic reluctor-type signal to function though.
>
>I don't think MSD makes something similar (you can only adjust the
slope
>and max advance as far as I know), and I'm not too familiar with the
>Holley stuff. The Accel piece is ~$150-$200.
>
>Hope that helps.
>
>Matt.
>
>
>
>
     I came across a device that might suite your purpose but didnt
notice
boost retard.  I have not had a chance to try this yet.

try this address:   http://www.picnpoke.com/projects/ignition.html

I looked in help(Eudora Light) but couldent see how to add this as a
link




From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 21 09:20:58 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:20:58 -0500
Subject: TPI on a 406
Message-ID: <mailman.32488.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hey, I might have thought of a clue for ya.  The 85 TPI had all the
intake bolt holes at the same angle, and will fit on any 85 and older
heads.  86 is usually the break year.  If the center two bolts are at
a different angle that the rest, you've probably got an 86+ unit.
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> OK I just picked up all the TPI hardware. The ECU turned out
> to be a 165 unit but the guy I bought it from swears it came
> out of a 1985 Camaro. Is it possible that the 165 was used
> toward the end of the year?
> 
> The harness is a complete stock harness, so I have a lot of
> ringing to do to identify all the plugs and non-essential
> portions of the harness.
> 
> Charles Brooks



From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 21 09:21:29 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:21:29 -0500
Subject: heated O2 sensor circuit question
Message-ID: <mailman.32489.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Don't know what you're driving, but I mounted the O2 sensor in my
pickup in the base of the LH collector, and it doesn't seem to fall
out of closed loop at the stoplights.

To answer your question, the GM sensors were wired to key on power,
and you need to make sure that the exhaust system is grounded to the
block if there isn't an exclusive heater ground.
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> I plan on relocating my O2 sensor further down into the header since the
> original spot reads off only 2 of the 4 cylinders. Thing is, the
> original sensor is a single wire, and I think I'd need a heated one for
> the new location.
> Any idea how to wire the heater circuit? Is it safe to wire the circuit
> to a switched (engine on) power source or was the heaer designed to shut
> off once it reaches operating temp?
> 
> -Ed



From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 21 09:24:23 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:24:23 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32490.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Tom, is there any chance that you know what the resistance of the
injectors is?
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Ken Kelly wrote:
> 
> > This only makes sense if the injectors are fired as left
> > bank and right bank. I would think you would gain more
> > benefit by grouping them in firing order rather than by
> > bank.
> 
> My ProFlow fires 4 sets of 2 injectors 1-8, 4-3, 6-5, 7-2. foue
> circuits/timers/drivers, one O2 sensor.   Tom



From realsquash at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 21 13:52:25 1999
From: realsquash at yahoo.com (andy quaas)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:52:25 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32491.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Is it true that none of the firing methods actually time the injector
to the intake stroke of that cylinder?  I would think that injecting
fuel on the other strokes would be a waste.  

Andy


---Sandy <sganz at wgn.net> wrote:
>
> I think that injection of all the fuel during a period has some
SMOG/Econ
> bennifits, but can't remember if any power was gained (anyone?). 
Others
> have stated that the evaporation of the fuel sitting on the closed
valve is
> better then squirting raw liquid fuel (hard to burn) into a
cylinder.  I
> think that is why you don't see much power difference between SFI
and BATCH
> systems.
> 
> Sandy
> 
> At 10:17 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >Ward Spoonemore wrote:
> >
> >> Tom
> >> Your Edelbrock ProFlo is typical on several other EFI system's
> >> actualy the tests I have run show little on no differace between
L/R and
> >> other systems.
> >> In fact all EFI are on almost 100% at or near WOT.
> >> Ward
> >
> >There is an ongoing discussion about the need to inject all (or
most) of the
> >fuel while the intake valve is open, probably starting before the
valve
> >opens and ending before it is closed. It would require large P&H
injectors
> >and lotta of pressure.
> >
> >Any ideas or comments (or experiences).     Regards  Tom
> >
> >
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From gderian at cybergate.net  Thu Jan 21 13:59:15 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:59:15 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32492.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Recent research on fuel droplet sizes has shown that injecting fuel onto a
closed intake valve, then letting a shot of exhaust hit it when the valve
opens (reversion) produces better and smaller droplets than the injector
itself can generate.  See the SAE Journal from a month or two ago.

With this info, SFI could be used to insure that all the fuel is injected
while the valve is closed, not open.  How are the SFI systems actually
timed?

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>




From kenkelly at lucent.com  Thu Jan 21 14:00:46 1999
From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:00:46 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32493.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

My comment was in reference to the idea that using two O2
sensors implied you could have two independent fuel controls
for the two injector drivers. The early ECM's & O2 sensors
were too slow to be able to react to individual cylinder
firings. There was an implication that the two O2 sensors
would allow independent fuel controls for the two injector
drivers. Since each O2 sensor is on a different bank, the
injectors would have to be grouped by bank to get this
independence. That would require some injectors to have
their whole injection cycle completed while the intake valve
is closed. I can't see how that would cause good fuel
mixture. I would think there would be a lot of fuel
seperation and pooling in the inlets that always fired while
the valve was closed. I would think at least from an
emmisions point that GM would gain more by having the
injectors ganged so that they fire closer too the intake
valve opening, than having them ganged by cylinder bank..
		Ken

Tom Sharpe wrote:
> 
> Ken Kelly wrote:
> 
> > This only makes sense if the injectors are fired as left
> > bank and right bank. I would think you would gain more
> > benefit by grouping them in firing order rather than by
> > bank.
> 
> My ProFlow fires 4 sets of 2 injectors 1-8, 4-3, 6-5, 7-2. foue
> circuits/timers/drivers, one O2 sensor.   Tom


From mikebr at sr.hp.com  Thu Jan 21 14:12:41 1999
From: mikebr at sr.hp.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:12:41 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32494.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Tom Sharpe wrote:
> 
> Ken Kelly wrote:
> 
> > This only makes sense if the injectors are fired as left
> > bank and right bank. I would think you would gain more
> > benefit by grouping them in firing order rather than by
> > bank.
> 
> My ProFlow fires 4 sets of 2 injectors 1-8, 4-3, 6-5, 7-2. foue
> circuits/timers/drivers, one O2 sensor.   Tom

Actually Tom, your ProFlow does fire the injectors in this order but not
in sync with the cylinders.  Wherever the motor happens to start
cranking over it starts spraying.  This is due to a bug in the code that
does not detect the #1 cylinder (the narrow pulse from the distributor).
I have reverse engineered the hardware and firmware on this system and
have corrected this bug.  If anybody out there has an Edelbrock ProFlow
and is interested in working together to improve it let me know as I
have functional schematics and documented source code (the code is full
of bugs I might add).  Been working steadily on this for over 7 months.

Mike


From mikebr at sr.hp.com  Thu Jan 21 14:18:09 1999
From: mikebr at sr.hp.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:18:09 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32495.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> Tom, is there any chance that you know what the resistance of the
> injectors is?
> Shannen
> 
> diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> >
> > Ken Kelly wrote:
> >
> > > This only makes sense if the injectors are fired as left
> > > bank and right bank. I would think you would gain more
> > > benefit by grouping them in firing order rather than by
> > > bank.
> >
> > My ProFlow fires 4 sets of 2 injectors 1-8, 4-3, 6-5, 7-2. foue
> > circuits/timers/drivers, one O2 sensor.   Tom

Shannen,
	I don't have my notes in front of me at work here but if my memory
serves me I beleive they are arround 25 ohms DC resistance.  I will
confirm this and let you know.

Mike


From mikebr at sr.hp.com  Thu Jan 21 14:25:59 1999
From: mikebr at sr.hp.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:25:59 -0500
Subject: heated O2 sensor circuit question
Message-ID: <mailman.32496.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ed wrote:
> 
> I plan on relocating my O2 sensor further down into the header since the
> original spot reads off only 2 of the 4 cylinders. Thing is, the
> original sensor is a single wire, and I think I'd need a heated one for
> the new location.
> Any idea how to wire the heater circuit? Is it safe to wire the circuit
> to a switched (engine on) power source or was the heaer designed to shut
> off once it reaches operating temp?
> 
> -Ed

Ed,
	On my Edelbrock/Webber ProFlow the heated sensor is powered off the
same circuit as the fuel pump.  I think that was done only for wiring
harness convenience.  I see no reason why it couldn't be powered thru
the ignition switch.  I believe it is a Bosch unit from a Ford.  Three
wires, +12v, ground, O2 sensor output.

Mike


From kenkelly at lucent.com  Thu Jan 21 14:26:28 1999
From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:26:28 -0500
Subject: TPI on a 406
Message-ID: <mailman.32497.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

V8 Camaro's have usually had a rough life. There is a very
good chance that peices you remove from an 85 camaro didn't
come from the factory in that car. Do you know the history
of the car! Was it on its 1st 2nd or 3rd engine?

		Ken

Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> Hey, I might have thought of a clue for ya.  The 85 TPI had all the
> intake bolt holes at the same angle, and will fit on any 85 and older
> heads.  86 is usually the break year.  If the center two bolts are at
> a different angle that the rest, you've probably got an 86+ unit.
> Shannen
> 
> diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> >
> > OK I just picked up all the TPI hardware. The ECU turned out
> > to be a 165 unit but the guy I bought it from swears it came
> > out of a 1985 Camaro. Is it possible that the 165 was used
> > toward the end of the year?
> >
> > The harness is a complete stock harness, so I have a lot of
> > ringing to do to identify all the plugs and non-essential
> > portions of the harness.
> >
> > Charles Brooks


From wsherwin at idirect.com  Thu Jan 21 14:39:22 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:39:22 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32498.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Why would it be a problem to deal with lots of boost when all the injectors
(or a bunch) are opened at the same time?   Is the problem associated with
pump pressure versus flow capacity, or with the actual manifold fuel
dynamics?  Just curious.

Walt.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sandy <sganz at wgn.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 9:37 PM
Subject: RE: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths


>One thing that is very inportant to remember about injection CIS vs Batch
>vs SFI is on cars that have boost it is a problem to deal with lots of
>boost when all injectors (or a bunch) are opened at the same time. SFI does
>much better in those situations, as it is easier to deal with the fuel
>pressure vs boost pressure problems.  The ideal system for me that would be
>very easy to do was a concept that I posted a millenium ago, just do a SFI
>Batch system (Pat Pend, (c) etc), where they are not in sync to anything,
>but follow a SFI pattern. No engine sensor or sync is required (read
>simple) and you get most all of the needed SFI benny's. No fuss no muss.
>The over-engineering problem has plagued the efi332 project for sometime,
>and getting something simple running is the way to go!
>
>Some rambelings
>
>Sandy



From mikebr at sr.hp.com  Thu Jan 21 15:02:25 1999
From: mikebr at sr.hp.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:02:25 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32499.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Gary Derian wrote:
> 
> Recent research on fuel droplet sizes has shown that injecting fuel onto a
> closed intake valve, then letting a shot of exhaust hit it when the valve
> opens (reversion) produces better and smaller droplets than the injector
> itself can generate.  See the SAE Journal from a month or two ago.
> 
> With this info, SFI could be used to insure that all the fuel is injected
> while the valve is closed, not open.  How are the SFI systems actually
> timed?
> 
> Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

Gary,
	On the Edelbrock ProFlow it is a function of RPM only.  Not much
resolution in the system so it can only advance the injector timing in
90 degree (crank degrees) chunks.  The break-points seem to be set up so
that most of the time the injector has finished firing before the intake
opens.  Some situations, like low rpm and high load it will still be
spraying while the valve is opening.

Mike


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Thu Jan 21 15:38:40 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:38:40 -0500
Subject: TPI on a 406
Message-ID: <mailman.32500.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The factory manuals are good about showing diagrams of every plug, their
pinouts and purpose.

--steve

Charles Brooks wrote:
> 
> OK I just picked up all the TPI hardware. The ECU turned out
> to be a 165 unit but the guy I bought it from swears it came
> out of a 1985 Camaro. Is it possible that the 165 was used
> toward the end of the year?
> 
> The harness is a complete stock harness, so I have a lot of
> ringing to do to identify all the plugs and non-essential
> portions of the harness.
> 
> Charles Brooks


From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 21 15:49:21 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:49:21 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32501.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi--

I just couldn't resist jumping beck into this one!!

Yes, Andy, you are right. Problems for most efi are:

1. Most injectors  do not have enough dynamic range to be able to inject
all the fuel for WOT power during just 80 to 100 degrees of crank rotation
AND be able to turn down far enough (Can't go to a short enough pulse
width) to inject a small enough quantity of fuel for proper fueling at
idle.

2. Most efi injectors do not atomize the fuel very well at all, period. So
tricks such as squirting fuel against the back side of a closed, hot intake
valve are used to get the fuel vaporized. (Vaporized is distinctly
different from atomized, this is not just a semantic point.)

There are OBVIOUS benefits to timing a squirt of WELL ATOMIZED fuel with
high inhale velocity in the intake ports. Anybody who doubts this
statement, get back to me after perusing some dyno data for an engine, any
properly tuned engine, equipped with an IR intake manifold with Weber,
Delorto, or Mikuni/Solex IR carbs. Pay particular attention to how LOW the
bsfc numbers are when it is tuned properly. Try the same engine with either
a standard carb and wet manifold or TPI. When running the TPI test,
restrict the Manifold runners with a choke the same size as whatever
venturis were used in the IR carbs, so that air flow is equal. We all know
that the IR carbs will seriously outperform the wet manifold. What is not
so obvious to all is that:

 1. The IR carbs will give lower bsfc at part throttle than the TPI,
because they atomize the fuel so much better.

2. The IR carbs will geve significantly more power, together with lower
bsfc,  (remember, air flow has been equalized) at WOT both because they
atomize the fuel very well, and because they time the shot of fuel with
high inhale velocity in the port.

There would be a lot less debate about this if anybody had ever bothered to
set up a true, change only one variable at a time, test of it. (I don't
know of any such tests.)

There are several very clear performance, economy, durability, and
thermodynamic benefits to getting well atomized, but not vaporized, fuel
inside the cylinder and getting the intake valve closed before much
vaporization takes place. The finer the atomization, the better, and the
less vaporization, the better. Good IR carbs do this pretty well. Efi,
(meaning TPI) despite all of its obvious airflow and metering accuracy
benefits does not do these two things very well at all with current
injector technology.

There are lots of folks in the industry working on developing ways to make
efi do these things better. I am working on the same thing as a hobby. When
I get an engine built, and get some test results, I will share them. But
some money is definitely going where my mouth is!!! That is so because I
believe that the above outline of the situation is sound
engineering/science and I want a better performing engine(s).

Regards, Greg



>Is it true that none of the firing methods actually time the injector
>to the intake stroke of that cylinder?  I would think that injecting
>fuel on the other strokes would be a waste.
>
>Andy
>
>
>---Sandy <sganz at wgn.net> wrote:
>>
>> I think that injection of all the fuel during a period has some
>SMOG/Econ
>> bennifits, but can't remember if any power was gained (anyone?).
>Others
>> have stated that the evaporation of the fuel sitting on the closed
>valve is
>> better then squirting raw liquid fuel (hard to burn) into a
>cylinder.  I
>> think that is why you don't see much power difference between SFI
>and BATCH
>> systems.
>>
>> Sandy
>>
>> At 10:17 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >Ward Spoonemore wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tom
>> >> Your Edelbrock ProFlo is typical on several other EFI system's
>> >> actualy the tests I have run show little on no differace between
>L/R and
>> >> other systems.
>> >> In fact all EFI are on almost 100% at or near WOT.
>> >> Ward
>> >
>> >There is an ongoing discussion about the need to inject all (or
>most) of the
>> >fuel while the intake valve is open, probably starting before the
>valve
>> >opens and ending before it is closed. It would require large P&H
>injectors
>> >and lotta of pressure.
>> >
>> >Any ideas or comments (or experiences).     Regards  Tom
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 21 15:55:03 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:55:03 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32502.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Why would it be a problem to deal with lots of boost when all the injectors
>(or a bunch) are opened at the same time?   Is the problem associated with
>pump pressure versus flow capacity, or with the actual manifold fuel
>dynamics?  Just curious.
>
>Walt.

Fuel flow dynamics (hammer, etc.,) in the fuel rails. Pump curve enters
into it as well, but not as strongly.

Greg
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sandy <sganz at wgn.net>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 9:37 PM
>Subject: RE: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
>
>
>>One thing that is very inportant to remember about injection CIS vs Batch
>>vs SFI is on cars that have boost it is a problem to deal with lots of
>>boost when all injectors (or a bunch) are opened at the same time. SFI does
>>much better in those situations, as it is easier to deal with the fuel
>>pressure vs boost pressure problems.  The ideal system for me that would be
>>very easy to do was a concept that I posted a millenium ago, just do a SFI
>>Batch system (Pat Pend, (c) etc), where they are not in sync to anything,
>>but follow a SFI pattern. No engine sensor or sync is required (read
>>simple) and you get most all of the needed SFI benny's. No fuss no muss.
>>The over-engineering problem has plagued the efi332 project for sometime,
>>and getting something simple running is the way to go!
>>
>>Some rambelings
>>
>>Sandy




From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Thu Jan 21 16:07:06 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:07:06 -0500
Subject: Knock Sensor
Message-ID: <mailman.32503.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Does anyone know if the knock sensor  module(ESC)is inside the ECM or
>seperate on a 90-91 vette tpi.  


From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Thu Jan 21 16:10:06 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:10:06 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32504.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> Recent research on fuel droplet sizes has shown that injecting fuel
-> onto a closed intake valve, then letting a shot of exhaust hit it
-> when the valve opens (reversion) produces better and smaller droplets
-> than the injector

 Sure.  But most engines simply squirt their fuel directly onto the
floor or wall of the intake port four or five inches away from the
valve.  Take a look at any American V8 or most V6s, for example.

 To get the injector to point at the valve requires a straight port from
the valve to the injector, with the air path curved down below the
injector's line of sight.  Very, very few engines do this.

==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                        


From rauscher at icst.com  Thu Jan 21 16:19:24 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:19:24 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32505.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Tom Sharpe wrote:
>
>My ProFlow fires 4 sets of 2 injectors 1-8, 4-3, 6-5, 7-2. foue
>circuits/timers/drivers, one O2 sensor.   Tom
>

In reading the archives, I thought the Pro-Flo used a '747 ECM,
which only has two drivers. Maybe a '749 is used, with 4 drivers?

I've tried to search the archive's, but to no avail...

BobR.

--





From lens at nydev.com  Thu Jan 21 17:00:59 1999
From: lens at nydev.com (LS)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:00:59 -0500
Subject: heated O2 sensor circuit question
Message-ID: <mailman.32506.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

All oxygen sensors 1,3,4 wire are the same in principal.
3 and 4 wire are heated. 4 wire has a signal ground instaed of using
exhaust manifold for ground.

The heating element lowers its current consumpiton with an increase
in its temperature. So it is self regulating, and does not require
special control.

		Good Luck
			Len.


From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 21 17:08:16 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:08:16 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32507.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The sometimes less than accurate GM classes I've attended teach that
injection should occur when the intake valve is closed,and be
completed immediately prior to intake valve opening.  This would make
use of the heat in the head of the valve help keep fuel from pooling.
This was mentioned earlier.  This might be GM's approach to sefi. 
According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating the valve,
preventing vaporization.
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Recent research on fuel droplet sizes has shown that injecting fuel onto a
> closed intake valve, then letting a shot of exhaust hit it when the valve
> opens (reversion) produces better and smaller droplets than the injector
> itself can generate.  See the SAE Journal from a month or two ago.
> 
> With this info, SFI could be used to insure that all the fuel is injected
> while the valve is closed, not open.  How are the SFI systems actually
> timed?
> 
> Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>



From sganz at wgn.net  Thu Jan 21 17:12:29 1999
From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:12:29 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32508.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

It becomes hard for the pressure that gets back into the fuel system, ie,
14lbs of boost will change the flow as instead of squirting against a
vaccum or light pressure, they now have to overcome what ever the boost is.
Sure boost adjusted regulators will help, but it get difficult to overcome
the dynamics of the pulses of each injector. Think of this if I have a pump
that does injection at 15lbs of fuel pressure and I have 15lbs of boost,
the fuel will not come out of the injector. Multiply this problem with more
open injectors and the fuel rail becomes very hard to regulate.

Sandy


At 09:38 AM 1/21/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Why would it be a problem to deal with lots of boost when all the injectors
>(or a bunch) are opened at the same time?   Is the problem associated with
>pump pressure versus flow capacity, or with the actual manifold fuel
>dynamics?  Just curious.
>
>Walt.



From realsquash at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 21 17:14:19 1999
From: realsquash at yahoo.com (andy quaas)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:14:19 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32509.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Doesn't a venturi atomize fuel very well in any case?  As stupid as it
sounds, why not make an intake that has a venturi for each port and
feed the fuel to the venturi at each intake port.  You'd have a lota
throttle shafts and such, but it would atomize the fuel better, no? 
What mechanical devices atomize fuel well?  How well does a mechanical
injection atomize fuel?  

Andy

p.s. what does IR stand for?  


---Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net> wrote:
>
> Hi--
> 
> I just couldn't resist jumping beck into this one!!
> 
> Yes, Andy, you are right. Problems for most efi are:
> 
> 1. Most injectors  do not have enough dynamic range to be able to
inject
> all the fuel for WOT power during just 80 to 100 degrees of crank
rotation
> AND be able to turn down far enough (Can't go to a short enough pulse
> width) to inject a small enough quantity of fuel for proper fueling at
> idle.
> 
> 2. Most efi injectors do not atomize the fuel very well at all,
period. So
> tricks such as squirting fuel against the back side of a closed, hot
intake
> valve are used to get the fuel vaporized. (Vaporized is distinctly
> different from atomized, this is not just a semantic point.)
> 
> There are OBVIOUS benefits to timing a squirt of WELL ATOMIZED fuel
with
> high inhale velocity in the intake ports. Anybody who doubts this
> statement, get back to me after perusing some dyno data for an
engine, any
> properly tuned engine, equipped with an IR intake manifold with Weber,
> Delorto, or Mikuni/Solex IR carbs. Pay particular attention to how
LOW the
> bsfc numbers are when it is tuned properly. Try the same engine with
either
> a standard carb and wet manifold or TPI. When running the TPI test,
> restrict the Manifold runners with a choke the same size as whatever
> venturis were used in the IR carbs, so that air flow is equal. We
all know
> that the IR carbs will seriously outperform the wet manifold. What
is not
> so obvious to all is that:
> 
>  1. The IR carbs will give lower bsfc at part throttle than the TPI,
> because they atomize the fuel so much better.
> 
> 2. The IR carbs will geve significantly more power, together with
lower
> bsfc,  (remember, air flow has been equalized) at WOT both because
they
> atomize the fuel very well, and because they time the shot of fuel
with
> high inhale velocity in the port.
> 
> There would be a lot less debate about this if anybody had ever
bothered to
> set up a true, change only one variable at a time, test of it. (I
don't
> know of any such tests.)
> 
> There are several very clear performance, economy, durability, and
> thermodynamic benefits to getting well atomized, but not vaporized,
fuel
> inside the cylinder and getting the intake valve closed before much
> vaporization takes place. The finer the atomization, the better, and
the
> less vaporization, the better. Good IR carbs do this pretty well. Efi,
> (meaning TPI) despite all of its obvious airflow and metering accuracy
> benefits does not do these two things very well at all with current
> injector technology.
> 
> There are lots of folks in the industry working on developing ways
to make
> efi do these things better. I am working on the same thing as a
hobby. When
> I get an engine built, and get some test results, I will share them.
But
> some money is definitely going where my mouth is!!! That is so
because I
> believe that the above outline of the situation is sound
> engineering/science and I want a better performing engine(s).
> 
> Regards, Greg
> 
> 
> 
> >Is it true that none of the firing methods actually time the injector
> >to the intake stroke of that cylinder?  I would think that injecting
> >fuel on the other strokes would be a waste.
> >
> >Andy
> >
> >
> >---Sandy <sganz at wgn.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think that injection of all the fuel during a period has some
> >SMOG/Econ
> >> bennifits, but can't remember if any power was gained (anyone?).
> >Others
> >> have stated that the evaporation of the fuel sitting on the closed
> >valve is
> >> better then squirting raw liquid fuel (hard to burn) into a
> >cylinder.  I
> >> think that is why you don't see much power difference between SFI
> >and BATCH
> >> systems.
> >>
> >> Sandy
> >>
> >> At 10:17 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Ward Spoonemore wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Tom
> >> >> Your Edelbrock ProFlo is typical on several other EFI system's
> >> >> actualy the tests I have run show little on no differace between
> >L/R and
> >> >> other systems.
> >> >> In fact all EFI are on almost 100% at or near WOT.
> >> >> Ward
> >> >
> >> >There is an ongoing discussion about the need to inject all (or
> >most) of the
> >> >fuel while the intake valve is open, probably starting before the
> >valve
> >> >opens and ending before it is closed. It would require large P&H
> >injectors
> >> >and lotta of pressure.
> >> >
> >> >Any ideas or comments (or experiences).     Regards  Tom
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >_________________________________________________________
> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 21 17:36:00 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:36:00 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32510.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The same but different.  Edelbrock Pro-flo is a pfi setup for 85 and
older engines which uses it's own ecu.  Edelbrock also makes a pfi
conversion for tbi pickups which uses the  stock wiring harness and
computer.
Shannen

diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
> 
> Tom Sharpe wrote:
> >
> >My ProFlow fires 4 sets of 2 injectors 1-8, 4-3, 6-5, 7-2. foue
> >circuits/timers/drivers, one O2 sensor.   Tom
> >
> 
> In reading the archives, I thought the Pro-Flo used a '747 ECM,
> which only has two drivers. Maybe a '749 is used, with 4 drivers?
> 
> I've tried to search the archive's, but to no avail...
> 
> BobR.
> 
> --



From jones.trevor at towerautomotive.com  Thu Jan 21 17:39:47 1999
From: jones.trevor at towerautomotive.com (Trevor Jones)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:39:47 -0500
Subject: Heated Oxygen Sensor
Message-ID: <mailman.32511.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'm not subscribed to this list yet but I'm hoping that some of you EFI
experts can help me out a little.  Since I'm not subscribed yet, any
comments need to be written directly to jones.trevor at towerautomotive.com.

I'm putting a Chevy 350 TBI into my '88 Jeep Wrangler.  The engine that I'm
using came from a '95 suburban with the 4LE60 tranny. It has what GM calls a
heated oxygen sensor instead of a standard oxygen sensor(difference
obviously being it has a positive lead and a ground to "heat" it up as well
as the sensor wire going to the PCM). This oxygen sensor is located on the
exhaust pipe AFTER the two banks of cylinders come together with a Y-pipe.
Would it be a problem if I installed the oxygen sensor on only one bank of
cylinders, or will this adversely affect the computer because it thinks it's
reading from BOTH cylinder banks?   Using only one bank of cylinders, it
would technically have a low reading and think the engine is running too
lean, bumping up the fuel mixture and actually making the engine run too
rich now. Since the engine is getting dual exhaust it isn't an option to put
the sensor on a pipe reading from both cylinder banks. Is this going to make
a difference or will it be so minor that it won't really matter??

Another option is to use a regular oxygen sensor(non-heated) that is made to
screw into the exhaust manifold on one side.  However, do the readings of
these two different kinds of sensors differ, throwing the PCM way off?  Now
the PCM would think it's getting a reading from a heated oxygen sensor off
both cylinder banks, when it's really just getting the reading from a
regular oxygen sensor on one cylinder bank.  Could the PCM or the chip
possibly be different depending on what type of oxygen sensor it had, or
would it function the same with either sensor??

Thanks for any help, it is GREATLY appreciated.

	TJ Jones




From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 21 18:01:17 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:01:17 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32512.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: andy quaas <realsquash at yahoo.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths

Check out Barry Gant's EFI system.  It uses venturi
Bruce


>Doesn't a venturi atomize fuel very well in any case?  As stupid as it
>sounds, why not make an intake that has a venturi for each port and
>feed the fuel to the venturi at each intake port.  You'd have a lota
>throttle shafts and such, but it would atomize the fuel better, no? 
>What mechanical devices atomize fuel well?  How well does a mechanical
>injection atomize fuel?  
>
>Andy
>
>p.s. what does IR stand for?  
>
>
>---Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi--
>> 
>> I just couldn't resist jumping beck into this one!!
>> 
>> Yes, Andy, you are right. Problems for most efi are:
>> 
>> 1. Most injectors  do not have enough dynamic range to be able to
>inject
>> all the fuel for WOT power during just 80 to 100 degrees of crank
>rotation
>> AND be able to turn down far enough (Can't go to a short enough pulse
>> width) to inject a small enough quantity of fuel for proper fueling at
>> idle.
>> 
>> 2. Most efi injectors do not atomize the fuel very well at all,
>period. So
>> tricks such as squirting fuel against the back side of a closed, hot
>intake
>> valve are used to get the fuel vaporized. (Vaporized is distinctly
>> different from atomized, this is not just a semantic point.)
>> 
>> There are OBVIOUS benefits to timing a squirt of WELL ATOMIZED fuel
>with
>> high inhale velocity in the intake ports. Anybody who doubts this
>> statement, get back to me after perusing some dyno data for an
>engine, any
>> properly tuned engine, equipped with an IR intake manifold with Weber,
>> Delorto, or Mikuni/Solex IR carbs. Pay particular attention to how
>LOW the
>> bsfc numbers are when it is tuned properly. Try the same engine with
>either
>> a standard carb and wet manifold or TPI. When running the TPI test,
>> restrict the Manifold runners with a choke the same size as whatever
>> venturis were used in the IR carbs, so that air flow is equal. We
>all know
>> that the IR carbs will seriously outperform the wet manifold. What
>is not
>> so obvious to all is that:
>> 
>>  1. The IR carbs will give lower bsfc at part throttle than the TPI,
>> because they atomize the fuel so much better.
>> 
>> 2. The IR carbs will geve significantly more power, together with
>lower
>> bsfc,  (remember, air flow has been equalized) at WOT both because
>they
>> atomize the fuel very well, and because they time the shot of fuel
>with
>> high inhale velocity in the port.
>> 
>> There would be a lot less debate about this if anybody had ever
>bothered to
>> set up a true, change only one variable at a time, test of it. (I
>don't
>> know of any such tests.)
>> 
>> There are several very clear performance, economy, durability, and
>> thermodynamic benefits to getting well atomized, but not vaporized,
>fuel
>> inside the cylinder and getting the intake valve closed before much
>> vaporization takes place. The finer the atomization, the better, and
>the
>> less vaporization, the better. Good IR carbs do this pretty well. Efi,
>> (meaning TPI) despite all of its obvious airflow and metering accuracy
>> benefits does not do these two things very well at all with current
>> injector technology.
>> 
>> There are lots of folks in the industry working on developing ways
>to make
>> efi do these things better. I am working on the same thing as a
>hobby. When
>> I get an engine built, and get some test results, I will share them.
>But
>> some money is definitely going where my mouth is!!! That is so
>because I
>> believe that the above outline of the situation is sound
>> engineering/science and I want a better performing engine(s).
>> 
>> Regards, Greg
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> >Is it true that none of the firing methods actually time the injector
>> >to the intake stroke of that cylinder?  I would think that injecting
>> >fuel on the other strokes would be a waste.
>> >
>> >Andy
>> >
>> >
>> >---Sandy <sganz at wgn.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think that injection of all the fuel during a period has some
>> >SMOG/Econ
>> >> bennifits, but can't remember if any power was gained (anyone?).
>> >Others
>> >> have stated that the evaporation of the fuel sitting on the closed
>> >valve is
>> >> better then squirting raw liquid fuel (hard to burn) into a
>> >cylinder.  I
>> >> think that is why you don't see much power difference between SFI
>> >and BATCH
>> >> systems.
>> >>
>> >> Sandy
>> >>
>> >> At 10:17 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Ward Spoonemore wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Tom
>> >> >> Your Edelbrock ProFlo is typical on several other EFI system's
>> >> >> actualy the tests I have run show little on no differace between
>> >L/R and
>> >> >> other systems.
>> >> >> In fact all EFI are on almost 100% at or near WOT.
>> >> >> Ward
>> >> >
>> >> >There is an ongoing discussion about the need to inject all (or
>> >most) of the
>> >> >fuel while the intake valve is open, probably starting before the
>> >valve
>> >> >opens and ending before it is closed. It would require large P&H
>> >injectors
>> >> >and lotta of pressure.
>> >> >
>> >> >Any ideas or comments (or experiences).     Regards  Tom
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >_________________________________________________________
>> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
>> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>



From gderian at cybergate.net  Thu Jan 21 18:05:24 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:05:24 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32513.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Carbon buildup on the back if an intake valve absorbs fuel.  During a
transition from part to full throttle, the carbon absorbs some of the added
fuel causing a momentary lean condition, just like a wet flow manifold.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>


>The sometimes less than accurate GM classes I've attended teach that
>injection should occur when the intake valve is closed,and be
>completed immediately prior to intake valve opening.  This would make
>use of the heat in the head of the valve help keep fuel from pooling.
>This was mentioned earlier.  This might be GM's approach to sefi.
>According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
>accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
>reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
>losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
>excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating the valve,
>preventing vaporization.
>Shannen
>
>diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
>>
>> Recent research on fuel droplet sizes has shown that injecting fuel onto
a
>> closed intake valve, then letting a shot of exhaust hit it when the valve
>> opens (reversion) produces better and smaller droplets than the injector
>> itself can generate.  See the SAE Journal from a month or two ago.
>>
>> With this info, SFI could be used to insure that all the fuel is injected
>> while the valve is closed, not open.  How are the SFI systems actually
>> timed?
>>
>> Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>



From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 21 18:09:49 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:09:49 -0500
Subject: Knock Sensor
Message-ID: <mailman.32514.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Guenther,Max <Mguenther at ASCO.COM>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 11:28 AM
Subject: Knock Sensor

If a 1227730, or 1227727ecm, there is no external ESC Module.
Bruce


>
>Does anyone know if the knock sensor  module(ESC)is inside the ECM or
>>seperate on a 90-91 vette tpi.  
>



From ludis at cruzers.com  Thu Jan 21 18:16:24 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:16:24 -0500
Subject: TPI on a 406
Message-ID: <mailman.32515.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

"Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
> I'd check the pinout real close, the 6870, and 165 both have two
> connector ecms, and maybe someone threw the 165 inna pile,
> thinking it was the same thing.  I don't know if there is a 
> difference in pinouts, but if the harness doesn't match the
> pinout for a 165 then that's you answer, there is a 165 pinout
> at 332 FTP.

The pinouts are subtly different.  From memory, A11 & B11 are analog
inputs (MAT, etc.) in one and grounds in the other.  Also, one of the
EST signals is moved.  The '165 is closer to the pinout of a '747.  Why
couldn't GM be consistent?

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/




From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Thu Jan 21 18:36:37 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:36:37 -0500
Subject: Knock Sensor
Message-ID: <mailman.32516.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi Guenther

In the 90-91 TPI applications the ESC module is located in the bluc
Calibration Pack which is located in the ECM.

gl:peter




From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 21 18:46:29 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:46:29 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32517.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths

Is this fact?, or theory?.
Bruce


>Carbon buildup on the back if an intake valve absorbs fuel.  During a
>transition from part to full throttle, the carbon absorbs some of the added
>fuel causing a momentary lean condition, just like a wet flow manifold.
>
>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>




From realsquash at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 21 18:57:27 1999
From: realsquash at yahoo.com (andy quaas)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:57:27 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32518.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I've seen the BG VFI.  I don't know anyone who uses it, either.  It
sure is a neat idea, tho.

Andy

---Bruce Plecan <nacelp at bright.net> wrote:
>
> 
> -----Original Message-----

le snipo
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 21 19:06:06 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:06:06 -0500
Subject: TPI on a 406
Message-ID: <mailman.32519.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ludis Langens <ludis at cruzers.com>
To: Diy_efi <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: TPI on a 406


>"Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
>> I'd check the pinout real close, the 6870, and 165 both have two
>> connector ecms, and maybe someone threw the 165 inna pile,
>> thinking it was the same thing.  I don't know if there is a 
>> difference in pinouts, but if the harness doesn't match the
>> pinout for a 165 then that's you answer, there is a 165 pinout
>> at 332 FTP.
>
>The pinouts are subtly different.  From memory, A11 & B11 are analog
>inputs (MAT, etc.) in one and grounds in the other.  Also, one of the
>EST signals is moved.  The '165 is closer to the pinout of a '747.  Why
>couldn't GM be consistent?
>Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
>Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/
>
>



From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Thu Jan 21 19:20:48 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:20:48 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32520.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:

> The sometimes less than accurate GM classes I've attended teach that
> injection should occur when the intake valve is closed,and be
> completed immediately prior to intake valve opening.  This would make
> use of the heat in the head of the valve help keep fuel from pooling.
> This was mentioned earlier.  This might be GM's approach to sefi. 
> According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
> accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
> reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
> losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
> excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating the valve,
> preventing vaporization.
> Shannen
> 
The way I heard it [at a Mopar school] is that the carbon accumulation on
the back of the intake valve acts like a sponge, absorbing enough gasoline
that the A/F mixture is upset. IIRC, only at low and medium cruise power.




From mikebr at sr.hp.com  Thu Jan 21 19:21:17 1999
From: mikebr at sr.hp.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:21:17 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32521.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

rauscher at icst.com wrote:
> 
> Tom Sharpe wrote:
> >
> >My ProFlow fires 4 sets of 2 injectors 1-8, 4-3, 6-5, 7-2. foue
> >circuits/timers/drivers, one O2 sensor.   Tom
> >
> 
> In reading the archives, I thought the Pro-Flo used a '747 ECM,
> which only has two drivers. Maybe a '749 is used, with 4 drivers?
> 
> I've tried to search the archive's, but to no avail...
> 
> BobR.
> 
> --
The Proflow uses a Magneti Marelli IAW ECU.  It has four independant
drivers/timers controlling the injectors as Tom states.

Mike


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Thu Jan 21 19:56:06 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:56:06 -0500
Subject: TPI on a 406
Message-ID: <mailman.32522.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I just talked to the guy I bought the stuff from. He said the manifold
is from a 1985 motor (bolts right up to my 406)and the rest of the
stuff is from a 1988 IROC Camaro. I was under the impression it came
off of a Vette but that seems to have been a mis-communication between
the two of us. No biggie, it's going to have a custom PROM one way or
the other.

Charles Brooks

Ludis Langens wrote:
> 
> "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
> > I'd check the pinout real close, the 6870, and 165 both have two
> > connector ecms, and maybe someone threw the 165 inna pile,
> > thinking it was the same thing.  I don't know if there is a
> > difference in pinouts, but if the harness doesn't match the
> > pinout for a 165 then that's you answer, there is a 165 pinout
> > at 332 FTP.
> 
> The pinouts are subtly different.  From memory, A11 & B11 are analog
> inputs (MAT, etc.) in one and grounds in the other.  Also, one of the
> EST signals is moved.  The '165 is closer to the pinout of a '747.  Why
> couldn't GM be consistent?
> 
> --
> Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
> Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/


From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 21 19:57:14 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:57:14 -0500
Subject: Yet more Aussie GM Bin's Uploaded.
Message-ID: <mailman.32523.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Myers <ponty at axis.jeack.com.au>
To: EFI List <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 2:29 AM
Subject: Yet more Aussie GM Bin's Uploaded.

I show the BLCB as being for the 16195699, are all of these for that ecm,
or is there no further data in that requard?.
Thanks Bruce


>For those who scan Hex files for fun!!!
>
>This lot is used in the VR & VS Holden Commodore (1994+).
>
>BLCB is for 3.8L V6 Auto (Sorry no Numbers)
>BLCD is for 3.8L V6 Man  (Sorry no Numbers)
>BLJX6413 is for 5.0L V8 Man
>BWCS9976 is for Police versions (not sure on trans config, probably V-6
>auto).
>
>Strange thing, it seems that the BLCB & BWCS don't have a Checksum!!, only
>the Manual BIN's do $520C at $0006-$0007.
>
>I know all these cars have Serial Data security check, gee if anybody finds
>this disable byte I'll be their best friend ;-)
>
>Get them all at the DIY_FTP.
>
>Any thoughts on the checksums guys, or should I say lack of?.
>
>Regards
>
>Ross Myers
>
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 21 20:01:23 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:01:23 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32524.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>The sometimes less than accurate GM classes I've attended teach that
>injection should occur when the intake valve is closed,and be
>completed immediately prior to intake valve opening.  This would make
>use of the heat in the head of the valve help keep fuel from pooling.
>This was mentioned earlier.  This might be GM's approach to sefi.
>According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
>accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
>reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
>losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
>excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating the valve,
>preventing vaporization.
>Shannen

The carbon (more accurately coke, the black kind)  is residue from the
gasoline. Run av gas and it won't happen :-) !! It can also restrict
breathing pretty drastically.

Greg
>
>diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote:
>>
>> Recent research on fuel droplet sizes has shown that injecting fuel onto a
>> closed intake valve, then letting a shot of exhaust hit it when the valve
>> opens (reversion) produces better and smaller droplets than the injector
>> itself can generate.  See the SAE Journal from a month or two ago.
>>
>> With this info, SFI could be used to insure that all the fuel is injected
>> while the valve is closed, not open.  How are the SFI systems actually
>> timed?
>>
>> Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>




From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 21 20:04:24 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:04:24 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32525.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Brown <mikebr at sr.hp.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths


Did this make a noticeable difference, finding and curing this bug?.
Bruce 

>I have reverse engineered the hardware and firmware on this system and
>have corrected this bug.  If anybody out there has an Edelbrock ProFlow
>and is interested in working together to improve it let me know as I
>have functional schematics and documented source code (the code is full
>of bugs I might add).  Been working steadily on this for over 7 months.
>
>Mike
>



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Thu Jan 21 20:09:25 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:09:25 -0500
Subject: Haltech E6GM
Message-ID: <mailman.32526.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I downlaoded the software but the damn thing switches screens so
fats I can't keep up long enough to change anything. Must be part
of the "Demo" so people don't just use it as is. Thanks anyway,
I'll take your word for it :)

Charles



Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> 
> If you find the demo software go - or + on the fuel timing table,
> and you should see the 500 rpm steps off of Alt F tables it is
> 1000 rpm steps.  Sounds confusing til ya read/see the manual.
> Bruce,  and does show very fine resolution in idle fuel as GH
> mentions.


From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 21 20:14:00 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:14:00 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32527.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Doesn't a venturi atomize fuel very well in any case?  As stupid as it
>sounds, why not make an intake that has a venturi for each port and
>feed the fuel to the venturi at each intake port.  You'd have a lota
>throttle shafts and such, but it would atomize the fuel better, no?
>What mechanical devices atomize fuel well?  How well does a mechanical
>injection atomize fuel?
>
>Andy
>
>p.s. what does IR stand for?
>
>
Sorry--IR= individual runner (with a throttle in each bore for carbs)

What atomizes the fuel so well in good carbs is the combination of an air
bleed jet, an emulsion tube (which, as the name implies, emulsifies the
fuel with the bleed air) , an auxiliary venturi (booster in Holley speak)
and a choke (venturi in Holley speak). Haven't tried it, but I do not think
just a venturi (the big one) would do much to help. Take a look at Barry
Grant's "VFI" system if you do not mind a wet manifold. They have made
considerable effort to get better fuel atomization out of injectors. IMHO
VFI is the best of the TBI options, by far.

As for how to atomize injected fuel VERY effectively--I intend to borrow
some technology from the world of large stationary boiler burners. The two
magic words in that area are steam atomization and air atomization!!

Regards, Greg




From lkurek at anl.gov  Thu Jan 21 20:29:36 1999
From: lkurek at anl.gov (Kurek, Larry)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:29:36 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32528.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ok then....explain how this works to me....

The carbon on the back of the intake absorbs fuel, so it results in a lean
condition? I can see this happening on startup...but what happens when the
carbon is saturated? It WON'T absorb any more fuel, so how does it still
affect fuel ratios? I doubt it is a matter of absorbing fuel when rich, then
releasing it when leaner...and I doubt it would have a significant impact
anyhow. 

I think this is one of those urban myths...or is it one of those mechanic
myth things? :)

Larry


> 
> On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> > The sometimes less than accurate GM classes I've attended teach that
> > injection should occur when the intake valve is closed,and be
> > completed immediately prior to intake valve opening.  This 
> would make
> > use of the heat in the head of the valve help keep fuel 
> from pooling.
> > This was mentioned earlier.  This might be GM's approach to sefi. 
> > According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
> > accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
> > reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
> > losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
> > excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating 
> the valve,
> > preventing vaporization.
> > Shannen
> > 
> The way I heard it [at a Mopar school] is that the carbon 
> accumulation on
> the back of the intake valve acts like a sponge, absorbing 
> enough gasoline
> that the A/F mixture is upset. IIRC, only at low and medium 
> cruise power.
> 
> 


From alaint at cgocable.ca  Thu Jan 21 21:38:58 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:38:58 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32529.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Did this make a noticeable difference, finding and curing this bug?.
> Bruce 
> 
> >I have reverse engineered the hardware and firmware on this system and
> >have corrected this bug.  If anybody out there has an Edelbrock ProFlow
> >and is interested in working together to improve it let me know as I
> >have functional schematics and documented source code (the code is full
> >of bugs I might add).  Been working steadily on this for over 7 months.
> >
> >Mike
> >

wonder if QNX might run on this,might have a lot less bug,possible problem
is finding some fuel injection code to run on the platform and the cost of
all this.

Alain Toussaint
Drummondville
Quebec,Canada
alaint at cgocable.ca




From sganz at wgn.net  Thu Jan 21 21:52:12 1999
From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:52:12 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32530.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 02:30 PM 1/21/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Ok then....explain how this works to me....
>
>The carbon on the back of the intake absorbs fuel, so it results in a lean
>condition? I can see this happening on startup...but what happens when the
>carbon is saturated? It WON'T absorb any more fuel, so how does it still
>affect fuel ratios? I doubt it is a matter of absorbing fuel when rich, then
>releasing it when leaner...and I doubt it would have a significant impact
>anyhow. 
>
>I think this is one of those urban myths...or is it one of those mechanic
>myth things? :)

Maybe the added weight of the now absorbed fuel causes a problem limiting
the engine RPM cuz' the valve train is now too damm heavy ;-).

Just having some fun...

Sandy


From villen01 at gel.ulaval.ca  Thu Jan 21 21:55:47 1999
From: villen01 at gel.ulaval.ca (Hugo Villeneuve)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:55:47 -0500
Subject: Ford list of injectors...
Message-ID: <mailman.32531.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi all,

	I saw a message from one of you some time ago saying that he received a
file named ford.txt concerning injector selection. Can someone indicate me
where to find this file?

	Thank-you, Hugo Villeneuve.


From goflo at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 21 22:10:53 1999
From: goflo at pacbell.net (goflo at pacbell.net)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:10:53 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32532.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Late 80s - Early 90s BMW had a cold-engine stumble caused by intake
valve carbon build-up. Usually went away after warm-up. There are
walnut shell on-the-car cleaners which address this problem.

Jack

Bruce Plecan wrote:

> Is this fact?, or theory?.
> Bruce
> 
> >Carbon buildup on the back if an intake valve absorbs fuel.  During a
> >transition from part to full throttle, the carbon absorbs some of the added
> >fuel causing a momentary lean condition, just like a wet flow manifold.



From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 21 22:16:42 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:16:42 -0500
Subject: Carbon pistons?.
Message-ID: <mailman.32533.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If anyone wants to buy me a couple sets, I'll report the results,
Cheers
Bruce        Doc has already got the ceramic glazing paint
                  chart out.   He thinks carbon fiber, ceramics
                  composites are all the same thing (all the c's
                  confuse the little guy)

>http://nctn.hq.nasa.gov/innovation/Innovation54/complic.htm.




From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 21 22:22:13 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:22:13 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32534.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
<snip>
> >According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
> >accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
> >reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
> >losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
> >excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating the valve,
> >preventing vaporization.
> >Shannen
> 
> The carbon (more accurately coke, the black kind)  is residue from the
> gasoline. Run av gas and it won't happen :-) !! It can also restrict
> breathing pretty drastically.
> 
> Greg
Lessee... Av gas was missing something, maybe detergents or the added
lubricants that are in auto gas?  Can't remember.  Is there any truth
to the story that unleaded av-gas is more correctly called low lead?  
Shannen



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Thu Jan 21 22:23:02 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:23:02 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32535.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Does anyone know what impedance the stock injectors are
for a 1988 TPI system? I need to swap to larger ones but
I don't know what impedance to look for.

Charles Brooks


From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 21 22:43:18 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:43:18 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32536.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I just found the bulletin.  It says the carbon deposits may have a
sponge like tendency and absorb fuel, affecting engine until it enters
closed loop. Also, carbon may act as insulator, preventing heat of
intake valve from aiding in fuel evaporation and causing cold weather
driveability problems such as stalling, hesitation, rough idle.  Most
likely, the "sponge effect" made for the hesitation that I felt.
Shannen

Jim Davies wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> > The sometimes less than accurate GM classes I've attended teach that
> > injection should occur when the intake valve is closed,and be
> > completed immediately prior to intake valve opening.  This would make
> > use of the heat in the head of the valve help keep fuel from pooling.
> > This was mentioned earlier.  This might be GM's approach to sefi.
> > According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
> > accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
> > reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
> > losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
> > excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating the valve,
> > preventing vaporization.
> > Shannen
> >
> The way I heard it [at a Mopar school] is that the carbon accumulation on
> the back of the intake valve acts like a sponge, absorbing enough gasoline
> that the A/F mixture is upset. IIRC, only at low and medium cruise power.



From amattei at mindspring.com  Thu Jan 21 22:45:09 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:45:09 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32537.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I measured the *resistance* with my VOM of a set of '85 305 TPI
injectors, and my '89 350 TPI injectors, and on both sets they ranged
from 16.2 to about 16.7, and I believe nominal is 16.4...

HTH,

Andrew

Charles Brooks wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know what impedance the stock injectors are
> for a 1988 TPI system? I need to swap to larger ones but
> I don't know what impedance to look for.
> 
> Charles Brooks


From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 21 23:34:17 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:34:17 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32538.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths

AV gas is/was extremely low ash.  Fouling plugs at 10,000' is not a minor
issue,
specially on a 4 cylinder.
Bruce

>Greg Hermann wrote:
>>
><snip>
>> >According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
>> >accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
>> >reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
>> >losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
>> >excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating the valve,
>> >preventing vaporization.
>> >Shannen
>>
>> The carbon (more accurately coke, the black kind)  is residue from the
>> gasoline. Run av gas and it won't happen :-) !! It can also restrict
>> breathing pretty drastically.
>>
>> Greg
>Lessee... Av gas was missing something, maybe detergents or the added
>lubricants that are in auto gas?  Can't remember.  Is there any truth
>to the story that unleaded av-gas is more correctly called low lead?
>Shannen
>



From PBRUNN at aol.com  Thu Jan 21 23:40:09 1999
From: PBRUNN at aol.com (PBRUNN at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:40:09 -0500
Subject: Ford list of injectors...
Message-ID: <mailman.32539.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_916961576_boundary
Content-ID: <0_916961576 at inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Here is the file you are looking for. I think you can also find it in the ftp
directory

regards

philipp

--part0_916961576_boundary
Content-ID: <0_916961576 at inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: text/plain;
	name="FORDTX~1.TXT"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Content-disposition: inline



Flow       PSI  Resist Mfg.   Part    Color  Application

1.76 (14)  ??    2.25 Bosch  E3EE-BA  Blue   1983     1.6L
1.76 (14)  ??    2.35 ND     E4EE-AA  Blue   1984     1.6L
1.76 (14)  30   16.20 ND     E59E-AB  Gray   1985-6   2.3L Truck, 5.0L SE=
FI
1.76 (14)  33   14.50 Bosch  E67C-AB  Gray   1986     2.9L, 3.0L
1.76 (14)  33   14.50 Bosch  E67E-BB  Gray   1986     5.0L SEFI
2.45 (19)  40    2.25 Bosch  E6EE-AB  White  1985-6   1.9L
2.45 (19)  32   16.20 ND     E6TE-AB  Gold   1986     5.0L HO SEFI
2.45 (19)  33   16.20 DKK    E5TE-AB  Gold   1985-6   5.0L Truck
2.45 (19)  33   14.50 Bosch  E5TE-BB  Gold   1986     5.8L Truck
3.00 (23)  ??    2.40 Bosch  E4EX-AA  Black  1984-5   1.6L Turbo
3.86 (30) 35-45  2.40 Bosch  E3ZE-BA  Green  1983     2.3L Turbo
3.86 (30) 35-45  2.35 DKK    E4ZE-AA  Green  1984     2.3L Turbo
4.41 (35) 35-45  2.35 DKK    E5ZE-AB  Gold   1985-6   2.3L Turbo
4.54 (37)  40    2.25 Bosch  E3VE-A1A Green  1984-6   3.8L CFI
4.54 (37)  40    2.0  ND     E3VE-A2A Green  1984-6   3.8L CFI
5.81 (46)  33    2.40 Bosch  EOSE-A1A Blue   1980-3   5.0L CFI
5.81 (46)  33    2.00 ND     EOSE-A2A Blue   1983-4   5.0L CFI
5.81 (46)  33    2.25 Bosch  EOSE-A1A Blue   1984     5.0L CFI
6.60 (52)  32    2.25 Bosch  E4ZE-CA  Gray   1984-5   5.0L HO CFI
7.00 (56)  16    1.40 Bosch  E43E-AC  Blue   1985-6   2.3L HSC
8.00 (64)  16    1.40 Bosch  E53E-AB  Green  1985-6   2.3L HO HSC, 2.5L H=
SC

The flow rate is gm/sec and lb/hr in parenthesis.  The resistance is obvi=
ous.
The manufacturer is next, I think ND is Nippondeso (sp?), I can't place D=
KK.
The part number is constructed as follows.  All injectors carry a basic p=
art
number 9F593, which is prefixed with a production release, and followed b=
y
a revision/application code.  For example E3EE-BA from the table will be
E3EE-9F593-BA to your local dealer.  The tops of the injectors are color
coded, as a quick check to the technician to make sure an engine contains=
 the
"same" injectors.  I included some sample applications which may help the
dealer if you are buying new, or yourself if scrounging in a junk yard.
I don't know what was used for the density of the fuel.  I typically use
0.79 (rounded up to 0.8 for "quickie" calculations), and I have seen John
use 0.775 for "racing" fuel.






--part0_916961576_boundary--


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Thu Jan 21 23:40:53 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:40:53 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32540.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Kurek, Larry wrote:
> 
> Ok then....explain how this works to me....
> 
> The carbon on the back of the intake absorbs fuel, so it results in a lean
> condition? I can see this happening on startup...but what happens when the
> carbon is saturated? It WON'T absorb any more fuel, so how does it still
> affect fuel ratios? I doubt it is a matter of absorbing fuel when rich, then
> releasing it when leaner...and I doubt it would have a significant impact
> anyhow.
> 
> I think this is one of those urban myths...or is it one of those mechanic
> myth things? :)
> 
> Larry
> 
> >
> > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:
> >
> > > The sometimes less than accurate GM classes I've attended teach that
> > > injection should occur when the intake valve is closed,and be
> > > completed immediately prior to intake valve opening.  This
> > would make
> > > use of the heat in the head of the valve help keep fuel
> > from pooling.
> > > This was mentioned earlier.  This might be GM's approach to sefi.
> > > According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
> > > accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
> > > reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
> > > losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
> > > excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating
> > the valve,
> > > preventing vaporization.
> > > Shannen
> > >
> > The way I heard it [at a Mopar school] is that the carbon
> > accumulation on
> > the back of the intake valve acts like a sponge, absorbing
> > enough gasoline
> > that the A/F mixture is upset. IIRC, only at low and medium
> > cruise power.
> >
> >
I don't know if it acts as a sponge or what, but the presence / absence
of carbon on the intake valves makes a SIGNIFICANT difference in
driveability. The 3.0 litre V6 in my aerostar had a BAD stumble off idle
when partly warmed up - to the point that on a cold day if I fired it up
and drove to the corner down the street it would invariably stall when
pulling away unless I floored it. Tried everything. Finally used a
"motor-vac" on it, which does an excellent job of decarbonizing - and
it's been perfect since.


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Thu Jan 21 23:47:48 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:47:48 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32541.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Shannen Durphey wrote:
> >
> > Greg
> Lessee... Av gas was missing something, maybe detergents or the added
> lubricants that are in auto gas?  Can't remember.  Is there any truth
> to the story that unleaded av-gas is more correctly called low lead?
> Shannen

In auto-speak it would be ultra high lead - higher lead content than the
old Sunoco 260.


From PBRUNN at aol.com  Fri Jan 22 00:01:00 1999
From: PBRUNN at aol.com (PBRUNN at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:01:00 -0500
Subject: Permatune CDI
Message-ID: <mailman.32542.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Is anybody experienced with this system?


From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan 22 00:43:18 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:43:18 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32543.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Here's some more interesting stuff.  During this time, the only
accurate test for measuring the effectiveness of fuel additives for
preventing carbon build up on valves was developed by BMW. A test
engine was run for an period of time, then the amount of accumulation
was measured.  Don't know if anything's changed since then.
Shannen

goflo at pacbell.net wrote:
> 
> Late 80s - Early 90s BMW had a cold-engine stumble caused by intake
> valve carbon build-up. Usually went away after warm-up. There are
> walnut shell on-the-car cleaners which address this problem.
> 
> Jack
> 
> Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> > Is this fact?, or theory?.
> > Bruce
> >
> > >Carbon buildup on the back if an intake valve absorbs fuel.  During a
> > >transition from part to full throttle, the carbon absorbs some of the added
> > >fuel causing a momentary lean condition, just like a wet flow manifold.



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Fri Jan 22 00:59:58 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:59:58 -0500
Subject: Ford list of injectors...
Message-ID: <mailman.32544.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

GO to the WWW page, click on OEM systems, then click on Ford...

--steve

Hugo Villeneuve wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
>         I saw a message from one of you some time ago saying that he received a
> file named ford.txt concerning injector selection. Can someone indicate me
> where to find this file?
> 
>         Thank-you, Hugo Villeneuve.


From ECMnut at aol.com  Fri Jan 22 01:03:06 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:03:06 -0500
Subject: Carbon pistons?.
Message-ID: <mailman.32545.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/21/99 5:20:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp at bright.net
writes:

> If anyone wants to buy me a couple sets, I'll report the results,
>  Cheers

Top Fuel teams tried CF con-rods prolly 15+ years ago, but they
were so tough, crank failures caused them to give it up...
I guess other metals, like aluminum absorb (some) shock of
combustion, where carbon fiber just passes it on...
It will be interesting to see what happens with the pistons.
MV


From AL8001 at aol.com  Fri Jan 22 02:30:59 1999
From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:30:59 -0500
Subject: Av gas(was: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths)
Message-ID: <mailman.32546.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 99-01-21 17:25:56 EST, shannen at grolen.com writes:

>Lessee... Av gas was missing something, maybe detergents or the added
>lubricants that are in auto gas?  Can't remember.  Is there any truth
>to the story that unleaded av-gas is more correctly called low lead?  
>Shannen
>
>
>

I've never run unleaded av gas and don't know if it exists. The small airports
I've been to only have 100LL or "Jet A".   I do run 100LL (100 octane Low
Lead, blue color) in a 
Formula Ford (1.6 carbed engine, looks like a Indy car only smaller) and a
porsche 914.

The fuel is really low lead, the plugs come out nearly white, the exhaust only
has a slight coating of lead.  Much better than the VP fuels C-15 green(
contains the maxium legal limit of 4.25 Grams per gallon- I think the number
is correct) I used to run, the plugs would be covered with lead.  Also if you
ran the engine too cold the plugs would look gray.

Last year 100LL was $ 1.25 US gal.  Two years ago VP C-15 was $ 4.50!
Airports will sell av gas to regular people, just don't ask them to pump it
into a car( bring a can) and please don't dump the can into the car while you
are there.

Av gas dosn't have a road use tax ( ~ .43 gal in PA) attached to it, so it's
illegal for a street car.  I've mixed 50/50 100LL and mid grade unleaded
street gas with good results.

Harold in PA


From javer96 at snowcrest.net  Fri Jan 22 02:45:01 1999
From: javer96 at snowcrest.net (Vance Rose)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:45:01 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32547.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 05:44 PM 1/21/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>I measured the *resistance* with my VOM of a set of '85 305 TPI
>injectors, and my '89 350 TPI injectors, and on both sets they ranged
>from 16.2 to about 16.7, and I believe nominal is 16.4...
>
>HTH,
>
>Andrew
>
>Charles Brooks wrote:
>> 
>> Does anyone know what impedance the stock injectors are
>> for a 1988 TPI system? I need to swap to larger ones but
>> I don't know what impedance to look for.
>> 
>> Charles Brooks
>
>Hi All	

	Ya can buy Ford 24lbs injectors for about 250.00. just don't tell die hard
gm people this- gets them all tweaked.

Vance


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Fri Jan 22 02:45:32 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:45:32 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32548.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Boy I started something.   I want to add IMHO that vaporization helps
economy/efficiency under cruse conditions but decreases effective intake
charge at WOT. Atomization helps cruse and WOT  conditions as well as not
hindering WOT.    Tom

Bruce Plecan wrote:

> Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
>
> Check out Barry Gant's EFI system.  It uses venturi
> Bruce
>
> >Doesn't a venturi atomize fuel very well in any case?  As stupid as it
> >sounds, why not make an intake that has a venturi for each port and
> >feed the fuel to the venturi at each intake port.  You'd have a lota
> >throttle shafts and such, but it would atomize the fuel better, no?
> >What mechanical devices atomize fuel well?  How well does a mechanical
> >injection atomize fuel?
> >
> >



From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 22 04:03:13 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:03:13 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32549.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Greg Hermann wrote:
>>
><snip>
>> >According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
>> >accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
>> >reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
>> >losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
>> >excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating the valve,
>> >preventing vaporization.
>> >Shannen
>>
>> The carbon (more accurately coke, the black kind)  is residue from the
>> gasoline. Run av gas and it won't happen :-) !! It can also restrict
>> breathing pretty drastically.
>>
>> Greg
>Lessee... Av gas was missing something, maybe detergents or the added
>lubricants that are in auto gas?  Can't remember.  Is there any truth
>to the story that unleaded av-gas is more correctly called low lead?
>Shannen

I was just making a funny--but for a race only motor av gas is a good deal.
Have a motorcycle racer buddy who has used nothing else for a LONG time. He
swears by it, and claims never at it. Says no need to drain the fuel system
(completely) when the bikes are parked for the winter. No gummy deposits
such as constantly screw up the operation of CD carbs, either. His favorite
demo is to pour splashes of av gas and car gas side by side on the concrete
driveway--the av gas spot is completely gone and totally dry pretty
quickly, the car gas leaves a little bit of sticky, gummy residue. With it
being that clean, mebbe the av gas does not NEED as much (or any)
detergent. I shall inquire as to the lead---

Obviously, the av gas has less high boiling components--but I SUSPECT that
the big difference as to intake valve coking is a function more of ash
content of the fuel--The coke is basically glazed on ash. I have also seen
it happen on intake valves with (IR) Weber carbs, incredibly thick. Since
the worst case I ever encountered was on a 2.0 liter 911 motor that never
ran anything but the old (very good) Amoco UL Super Premium, I strongly
suspected the ash level in the motor oil that was always used in the
engine. The oil came in a green can , and I promise it was NOT Wolf's Head,
although it implied ties to that same eastern state!! :-)

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 22 04:08:45 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:08:45 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32550.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 5:33 PM
>Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
>
>AV gas is/was extremely low ash.  Fouling plugs at 10,000' is not a minor
>issue,
>specially on a 4 cylinder.
>Bruce

More so on a single engine!!! :-)

Greg
>
>>Greg Hermann wrote:
>>>
>><snip>
>>> >According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
>>> >accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
>>> >reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
>>> >losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
>>> >excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating the valve,
>>> >preventing vaporization.
>>> >Shannen
>>>
>>> The carbon (more accurately coke, the black kind)  is residue from the
>>> gasoline. Run av gas and it won't happen :-) !! It can also restrict
>>> breathing pretty drastically.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>Lessee... Av gas was missing something, maybe detergents or the added
>>lubricants that are in auto gas?  Can't remember.  Is there any truth
>>to the story that unleaded av-gas is more correctly called low lead?
>>Shannen
>>




From twsharpe at mtco.com  Fri Jan 22 04:16:29 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:16:29 -0500
Subject: stock CPUs
Message-ID: <mailman.32551.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Does anyone know the processor configuration used in the Aurora and
Caddy Northstars?? They are V8 SFI with 4 dual coils.

TIa  Tom



From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 22 04:17:05 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:17:05 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32552.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Boy I started something.   I want to add IMHO that vaporization helps
>economy/efficiency under cruse conditions but decreases effective intake
>charge at WOT. Atomization helps cruse and WOT  conditions as well as not
>hindering WOT.    Tom

Nicely and neatly stated, Tom. I knew you knew that!! :-)

Greg
>
>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>
>> Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
>>
>> Check out Barry Gant's EFI system.  It uses venturi
>> Bruce
>>
>> >Doesn't a venturi atomize fuel very well in any case?  As stupid as it
>> >sounds, why not make an intake that has a venturi for each port and
>> >feed the fuel to the venturi at each intake port.  You'd have a lota
>> >throttle shafts and such, but it would atomize the fuel better, no?
>> >What mechanical devices atomize fuel well?  How well does a mechanical
>> >injection atomize fuel?
>> >
>> >




From alipper at cardozo.org  Fri Jan 22 04:17:41 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:17:41 -0500
Subject: ECU6 software
Message-ID: <mailman.32553.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Wayne, thanks for checking out the files.  We've got the hardware on its
way to being rev. 7 (Which I'll post the schematics for when it's together
and tested), so I'm looking forward to what you think of the software.  It
is a combiled BASIC, and it was selected partially because I know BASIC
very well, it is especially flexible (has many high-level functions) and it
was cheap ($300 compared to thousands for C compilers).  In any case, it's
plenty fast and seems to do the job nicely.  Though I'm sure C would be
even cleaner, this is what we have now.

			Al

>
>Ah but time dulls the skills, I'll check out the files you mention but it
>looks like a port not a create.
>That should be easier and quicker.
>I dont mind having a go at the other programming languages.
>I'll let you know soon how much I can offer
>
>A question though. Why BASIC( havent checked but assume it is a compiled
>basic for spped reasons)
>
>




From alipper at cardozo.org  Fri Jan 22 04:17:44 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:17:44 -0500
Subject: ECU6 programming
Message-ID: <mailman.32554.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

John, it would be great to have you working on the project.  Perhaps you
can look over the ASM files and see if it's the sort of things you're
comfortable with.  Wayne Blair is going to be helping with some of it also.
 Since there are largely seperate items that need work, it seems like your
efforts might complement eachother well.  Let me know what you think after
looking at the files.  Thanks.

			Al


At 03:35 PM 1/20/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I've done some programming of the 8051, but it has been 5 years and I have
>been working on numerous other microcontrollers and microprocessors since
>then, so I'm quite rusty.  I'd be glad to lend a hand.  I might even have a
>compiler floating around here at work from an old project...
>
>--- John
>
>




From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Fri Jan 22 04:47:43 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:47:43 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32555.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Greg Hermann wrote:

> There are lots of folks in the industry working on developing ways to make
> efi do these things better. I am working on the same thing as a hobby. When
> I get an engine built, and get some test results, I will share them. But
> some money is definitely going where my mouth is!!! That is so because I
> believe that the above outline of the situation is sound
> engineering/science and I want a better performing engine(s).

    What about the two injector per cylinder arrangement of some company whose
name I have forgotten.  IIRC, they had the first injector fire into the back of
the second injector.  At this point compressed air was shot in to atomize and
build up pressure.  Then the second injector shot a mixture in which 80% or
more was smaller than 10 microns.  Apparently they are already building marine
engines and have deals going with a few auto companies.  Anybody remember that
article or their website?  Btw, I am new here and will be working on a project
to make a sefi 400/455 Pontiac, but don't have a damned clue how to so any help
or suggestions would be great.

James Ballenger




From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Fri Jan 22 04:50:28 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:50:28 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32556.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Try lead fouling from using 100/130 in an engine designed for 80/87....... 
happened to me at 7000'.......... exciting time until I leaned out the 
engine enough to burn off the excess lead.......

----------
From: 	Bruce Plecan[SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
Sent: 	January 21, 1999 4:05 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths


-----Original Message-----
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths

AV gas is/was extremely low ash.  Fouling plugs at 10,000' is not a minor
issue,
specially on a 4 cylinder.
Bruce

>Greg Hermann wrote:
>>
><snip>
>> >According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
>> >accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
>> >reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
>> >losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
>> >excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating the valve,
>> >preventing vaporization.
>> >Shannen
>>
>> The carbon (more accurately coke, the black kind)  is residue from the
>> gasoline. Run av gas and it won't happen :-) !! It can also restrict
>> breathing pretty drastically.
>>
>> Greg
>Lessee... Av gas was missing something, maybe detergents or the added
>lubricants that are in auto gas?  Can't remember.  Is there any truth
>to the story that unleaded av-gas is more correctly called low lead?
>Shannen
>




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From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Fri Jan 22 04:50:32 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:50:32 -0500
Subject: Ford list of injectors...
Message-ID: <mailman.32557.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Any ideas what the corresponding Bosch P/N's would be ?


----------
From: 	PBRUNN at aol.com[SMTP:PBRUNN at aol.com]
Sent: 	January 21, 1999 4:32 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: Ford list of injectors...

Here is the file you are looking for. I think you can also find it in the ftp
directory

regards

philipp

<<File: FORDTX~1.DIC>>

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`
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From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 04:59:09 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:59:09 -0500
Subject: Prom dates, er codes
Message-ID: <mailman.32558.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

As I understand proms, a 27C128, and 27128A are functionally
the same, meaning they share CMOS technology.
  Anything else may have a different programming voltage, and
maybe of a slower operating speed??..

  On the few 512 proms I've seen they have all been "27512s", with
no As or Cs?.   The ""s are cause I not absolutely sure of that.
Thanks     Again reference to gm type memcals
Bruce



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Fri Jan 22 05:06:54 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:06:54 -0500
Subject: Av gas(was: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths)
Message-ID: <mailman.32559.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

AL8001 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-01-21 17:25:56 EST, shannen at grolen.com writes:
> 
> >Lessee... Av gas was missing something, maybe detergents or the added
> >lubricants that are in auto gas?  Can't remember.  Is there any truth
> >to the story that unleaded av-gas is more correctly called low lead?
> >Shannen
> >
> >
> >
> 
> I've never run unleaded av gas and don't know if it exists. The small airports
> I've been to only have 100LL or "Jet A".   I do run 100LL (100 octane Low
> Lead, blue color) in a
> Formula Ford (1.6 carbed engine, looks like a Indy car only smaller) and a
> porsche 914.
> 
> The fuel is really low lead, the plugs come out nearly white, the exhaust only
> has a slight coating of lead.  Much better than the VP fuels C-15 green(
> contains the maxium legal limit of 4.25 Grams per gallon- I think the number
> is correct) I used to run, the plugs would be covered with lead.  Also if you
> ran the engine too cold the plugs would look gray.
> 
> Last year 100LL was $ 1.25 US gal.  Two years ago VP C-15 was $ 4.50!
> Airports will sell av gas to regular people, just don't ask them to pump it
> into a car( bring a can) and please don't dump the can into the car while you
> are there.
> 
> Av gas dosn't have a road use tax ( ~ .43 gal in PA) attached to it, so it's
> illegal for a street car.  I've mixed 50/50 100LL and mid grade unleaded
> street gas with good results.
> 
> Harold in PA
In Canada it's illegal to put anywhere but into a plane - can't even buy
it to use in a race-car. I used to use it for engine storage - fill the
tank with av-gas and it's as fresh a year later as pump gas would be 3
days later. It does NOT absorb water as much as mogas.


From spoonie at deltanet.com  Fri Jan 22 05:45:27 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:45:27 -0500
Subject: Heated Oxygen Sensor
Message-ID: <mailman.32560.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Several GM app's have the o2 in only one side, but this is not a good idea
since one side tends to run hotter than the other, and thus different o2
results, which side would you choose, Which evee  one you picked woul not be
optimum.

I have the same instalation im my 95 Tahoe, and its a winner. This is the
last of the Lo5 engines for ever !
Ward



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Trevor
Jones
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 9:42 AM
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Heated Oxygen Sensor


I'm not subscribed to this list yet but I'm hoping that some of you EFI
experts can help me out a little.  Since I'm not subscribed yet, any
comments need to be written directly to jones.trevor at towerautomotive.com.

I'm putting a Chevy 350 TBI into my '88 Jeep Wrangler.  The engine that I'm
using came from a '95 suburban with the 4LE60 tranny. It has what GM calls a
heated oxygen sensor instead of a standard oxygen sensor(difference
obviously being it has a positive lead and a ground to "heat" it up as well
as the sensor wire going to the PCM). This oxygen sensor is located on the
exhaust pipe AFTER the two banks of cylinders come together with a Y-pipe.
Would it be a problem if I installed the oxygen sensor on only one bank of
cylinders, or will this adversely affect the computer because it thinks it's
reading from BOTH cylinder banks?   Using only one bank of cylinders, it
would technically have a low reading and think the engine is running too
lean, bumping up the fuel mixture and actually making the engine run too
rich now. Since the engine is getting dual exhaust it isn't an option to put
the sensor on a pipe reading from both cylinder banks. Is this going to make
a difference or will it be so minor that it won't really matter??

Another option is to use a regular oxygen sensor(non-heated) that is made to
screw into the exhaust manifold on one side.  However, do the readings of
these two different kinds of sensors differ, throwing the PCM way off?  Now
the PCM would think it's getting a reading from a heated oxygen sensor off
both cylinder banks, when it's really just getting the reading from a
regular oxygen sensor on one cylinder bank.  Could the PCM or the chip
possibly be different depending on what type of oxygen sensor it had, or
would it function the same with either sensor??

Thanks for any help, it is GREATLY appreciated.

	TJ Jones




From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Fri Jan 22 06:47:43 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:47:43 -0500
Subject: Non EFI, but could not resist sharing!!!
Message-ID: <mailman.32561.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/18/99 8:10:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

<< Subj:	 Non EFI, but could not resist sharing!!!
 Date:	1/18/99 8:10:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 
 >>      At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared
 >> the
 >> computer industry with the auto industry and stated:  "If GM had kept up
 >> with
 >> technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving
 >> $25 cars that got 1000 miles to the gallon."
 >>
 >> In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release
 >> stating: If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be
 >> driving cars with the following characteristics:
 >>
 >> 1.  For no reason whatsoever your car would crash twice a day.
 >>
 >> 2.  Every time they repainted the lines on the road you would have to buy
 >> a new car.
 >>
 >> 3.  Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason, and you
 >> would just accept this, restart and drive on.
 >>
 >> 4.  Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause
 >> your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have
 >> to reinstall the engine.
 >>
 >> 5.  Only one person at a time could use the car, unless you bought
 >> "Car95" or "Car NT" but then you would have to buy more seats.
 >>
 >> 6.  Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, reliable,
 >> five times as fast, and twice as easy to drive, but would only run on 5%
 >> of
 >> the roads.
 >>
 >> 7.  The oil, water temperature and alternator warning lights would be
 >> replaced by a single "general car fault" warning light.
 >>
 >> 8.  New seats would force everyone to have the same size butt.
 >>
 >> 9.  The air bag system would say, "Are you sure?" before going off.
 >>
 >> 10.  Occasionally for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out
 >> and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lift the door handle,
 >> turn the key, and grab hold of the radio antenna.
 >>
 >> 11.  GM would require all car buyers to also purchase a deluxe set of
 >> Rand McNally Road maps (now a GM subsidiary), even though they neither
 >> need them or want them. Attempting to delete this option would
 >> immediately cause the car's performance to diminish by 50% or more.
 >> Moreover, GM would become a target for investigation by the Justice
 >> Department.
 >>
 >> 12.  Every time GM introduced a new model car buyers would have to learn
 >> how
 >> to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the
 >> same
 >> manner as the old car.
 >>
 >> 13.  You'd press the "start" button to shut off the engine.


Hi Greg,
    I culdn't resist either..........The computer industry grows faster than
their marketing and much faster than their testing(debugging) and I never saw
this response from GM but I totally agree it is reasonsible ,,,,,but it also
says something for most of the aftermarket that doesn't release their product
until it's correct(as the OEM's try their hardest to do)....2 cents
-Carl Summers


From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Fri Jan 22 06:49:51 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:49:51 -0500
Subject: Yet more Aussie GM Bin's Uploaded.
Message-ID: <mailman.32562.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I show the BLCB as being for the 16195699, are all of these for that ecm,
>or is there no further data in that requard?.
>Thanks Bruce

I'll check the ECM useage, but I don't really have good access to that info
though, however with the no numbers comment, I ment the 4 numbers in the BCC
for the Memcal.

Seems you must have a decent list for Memcal usage Bruce?, I have a really
good one for stuff upto about 91/92, got anything for above that? (For
Holden).

Thanks

Ross Myers




From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Fri Jan 22 07:07:33 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 02:07:33 -0500
Subject: HALP dribbling Thanks everyone
Message-ID: <mailman.32563.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/19/99 11:49:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
pfenske at bcit.bc.ca writes:

<< Subj:	 RE: HALP dribbling Thanks everyone
 Date:	1/19/99 11:49:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 
 
 Hi Rick, Bruce and all the other helpful people
 
 The carb is fine, brass floats, expoxied plugs, level 11/32 and
 tried a fact rblt one just to check. When adjusted both carbs do this.
 Ported spark and 0 degrees inital.
 
 Yep Rick you are right. I have to get the CO to less than 1.5%
 to meet standard. If I leave it at 3% runs like a champ
 no dribbling but is illegial
 
 To get the cat to light you have to have less than 1%
 
 You guys did get me thinking. In order to idle
 properly with the lean mixture required a much
 higher airflow is required. this tends to activate the
 main booster, hence the dribbling.
 Also the low vapor pressure used here in winter
 is a contributation.
 
 What we are gonna try and the CO meter likes it
 is creating a massive air leak. HC goes up
 but should be tolerable.
 
 Just hope the smog guys don't see it
 
 Thanks all:peter
 
 And no this is not how the car will be driven later
  >>
Hi Peter,
        You haven't mentioned you're camshaft or heads or etc......but I have
had to drill the idle feed areas so as to increase the fuel flow at a lower
vacuum level.....if the idle vacuum is lower than the standard that the carb
was designed for, it is flowing less fuel, I may be way off base here but let
me know,,,,I have done alot of carb development before the EFI stuff.   hth's 
-Carl Summers


From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Fri Jan 22 07:22:54 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 02:22:54 -0500
Subject: More Holden stuff uploaded
Message-ID: <mailman.32564.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Just 1 more file uploaded today,

For a VR, 5L V8 Auto Commodore (around 94 model).

File is BLCC5074.BIN

Bye

Ross Myers



From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Fri Jan 22 07:49:03 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 02:49:03 -0500
Subject: Another Non EFI Question
Message-ID: <mailman.32565.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi All

Hate to ask you another non efi guestion but
on a dana 44 if when replacing a gear set
The replacement pinion is stamped +0
which is replacing a pinion stamped +1

This means I need a shim which is +1 thou
bigger..

Question is the pattern gonna be off significantly
if I use the old shim.

TIA:peter




From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Fri Jan 22 08:01:23 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 03:01:23 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32566.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Greg,
       I couldn't agree more...if you can program a computer to learn when the
intake valve closes and know the bsfc and know the mass fuel and mass air and
know the actual torque produced from an event(given igntion timing has been
introduced to optimize) there has to be a calcualtion that can result in a
generic rule.......fuel injection has so many variables that carb's have for
granted....the pulses that hit the boosters in a carb are relatively "easy" to
tune considering a "programmer" has no idea of the sonic wave of a engine
cycle vs rpm and exhaust and camshaft intake or exhaust events vs temp or
density...we have just begun to start learning what happens.....and we haven't
even started to talk about transport delays depending on temp or
distance......steady state is the easiest,,,,but then there are the
transients......how do you do it for every app?????  That's what I want to
know!!!!!.....Anyway I'll shutup now.........Thanks for listening
-Carl Summers

In a message dated 1/21/99 7:53:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

<< Subj:	 Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
 Date:	1/21/99 7:53:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 Hi--
 
 I just couldn't resist jumping beck into this one!!
 
 Yes, Andy, you are right. Problems for most efi are:
 
 1. Most injectors  do not have enough dynamic range to be able to inject
 all the fuel for WOT power during just 80 to 100 degrees of crank rotation
 AND be able to turn down far enough (Can't go to a short enough pulse
 width) to inject a small enough quantity of fuel for proper fueling at
 idle.
 
 2. Most efi injectors do not atomize the fuel very well at all, period. So
 tricks such as squirting fuel against the back side of a closed, hot intake
 valve are used to get the fuel vaporized. (Vaporized is distinctly
 different from atomized, this is not just a semantic point.)
 
 There are OBVIOUS benefits to timing a squirt of WELL ATOMIZED fuel with
 high inhale velocity in the intake ports. Anybody who doubts this
 statement, get back to me after perusing some dyno data for an engine, any
 properly tuned engine, equipped with an IR intake manifold with Weber,
 Delorto, or Mikuni/Solex IR carbs. Pay particular attention to how LOW the
 bsfc numbers are when it is tuned properly. Try the same engine with either
 a standard carb and wet manifold or TPI. When running the TPI test,
 restrict the Manifold runners with a choke the same size as whatever
 venturis were used in the IR carbs, so that air flow is equal. We all know
 that the IR carbs will seriously outperform the wet manifold. What is not
 so obvious to all is that:
 
  1. The IR carbs will give lower bsfc at part throttle than the TPI,
 because they atomize the fuel so much better.
 
 2. The IR carbs will geve significantly more power, together with lower
 bsfc,  (remember, air flow has been equalized) at WOT both because they
 atomize the fuel very well, and because they time the shot of fuel with
 high inhale velocity in the port.
 
 There would be a lot less debate about this if anybody had ever bothered to
 set up a true, change only one variable at a time, test of it. (I don't
 know of any such tests.)
 
 There are several very clear performance, economy, durability, and
 thermodynamic benefits to getting well atomized, but not vaporized, fuel
 inside the cylinder and getting the intake valve closed before much
 vaporization takes place. The finer the atomization, the better, and the
 less vaporization, the better. Good IR carbs do this pretty well. Efi,
 (meaning TPI) despite all of its obvious airflow and metering accuracy
 benefits does not do these two things very well at all with current
 injector technology.
 
 There are lots of folks in the industry working on developing ways to make
 efi do these things better. I am working on the same thing as a hobby. When
 I get an engine built, and get some test results, I will share them. But
 some money is definitely going where my mouth is!!! That is so because I
 believe that the above outline of the situation is sound
 engineering/science and I want a better performing engine(s).
 
 Regards, Greg


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 12:53:16 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:53:16 -0500
Subject: 85-90 ecm conversion
Message-ID: <mailman.32567.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

85 vette uses a 6870 ecm, and the dash is operated off of
the serial data line, or so it looks from the wiring diagram.
  I quess installing a 730 in it's place would render all the dash
functions useless?.
  Does anyone know if the dash from a 90 vette would be a
bolt-in to make this update possible?.
  Thanks in Advance
Bruce



From rauscher at icst.com  Fri Jan 22 12:55:19 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:55:19 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32568.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> --
>The Proflow uses a Magneti Marelli IAW ECU.  It has four independant
>drivers/timers controlling the injectors as Tom states.
>
>Mike

Ahh, thanks

BobR.


--




From bmarsh at turing.une.edu.au  Fri Jan 22 12:57:14 1999
From: bmarsh at turing.une.edu.au (Benjamin Marsh)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:57:14 -0500
Subject: Carbon pistons?.
Message-ID: <mailman.32569.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Anyone have any idea what a set of these things would cost?
:P
Ben

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> If anyone wants to buy me a couple sets, I'll report the results,
> Cheers
> Bruce        Doc has already got the ceramic glazing paint
>                   chart out.   He thinks carbon fiber, ceramics
>                   composites are all the same thing (all the c's
>                   confuse the little guy)
> 
> >http://nctn.hq.nasa.gov/innovation/Innovation54/complic.htm.
> 
> 


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 13:00:04 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:00:04 -0500
Subject: Another Non EFI Question
Message-ID: <mailman.32570.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Fenske <pfenske at bcit.bc.ca>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 3:01 AM
Subject: Another Non EFI Question

If the gears have been run (used) even with the correct shm, they may
make some noise.  The more hypoid to the gear set the less critical
it is.  Meaning on a straight bevel gear set it matters more than on a
hypoid.  
   A thou, I wouldn't worry over.  But, if you/customer is a perfectionist
might not be happy.
Bruce

>
>
>Hi All
>
>Hate to ask you another non efi guestion but
>on a dana 44 if when replacing a gear set
>The replacement pinion is stamped +0
>which is replacing a pinion stamped +1
>
>This means I need a shim which is +1 thou
>bigger..
>
>Question is the pattern gonna be off significantly
>if I use the old shim.
>
>TIA:peter
>
>



From mpitts at emi.net  Fri Jan 22 13:19:50 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:19:50 -0500
Subject: Fw: Is your car Y2K Ready?
Message-ID: <mailman.32571.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Check this scam out!!!!  Geez!  Pay $10 to ask this guy 
if your car is Y2k safe.  Gimmie a break.  I wonder how 
many poor souls will fall for this.

-----Original Message-----
From: Automotive Diagnostics, Inc <87193349 at 20891.com>
To: Friend at public.com <Friend at public.com>
Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 9:52 PM
Subject: Is your car Y2K Ready?

>IS YOUR CAR Y2K SAFE?
>      FIND OUT!
>       $9.95
>http://www.adiauto.com





From rauscher at icst.com  Fri Jan 22 13:51:20 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:51:20 -0500
Subject: Prom dates, er codes
Message-ID: <mailman.32572.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Bruce wrote:
>As I understand proms, a 27C128, and 27128A are functionally
>the same, meaning they share CMOS technology.
>  Anything else may have a different programming voltage, and
>maybe of a slower operating speed??..
>
>  On the few 512 proms I've seen they have all been "27512s", with
>no As or Cs?.   The ""s are cause I not absolutely sure of that.
>Thanks     Again reference to gm type memcals
>Bruce

OK, EPROM's and the codes, it can be a mess. For the following information I'm
using the National Semiconductor Memory Databook as a reference (1988 version).

Without the 'C' in the middle, IE: 27C256, it is NOT a CMOS EPROM. It is most
likely a NMOS part. 

As far as suffix's go:

    'B' is used for a higher speed version of an EPROM, for programming (500usec
prog pulse)
    'C' is for a very high speed version (access and prog pulse[100usec])
    'N' is used for a one time programmable
    'Q' is the package/window type, quartz
    'E' is for extended temp range
    'M' is for a military part, even greater temp range

(Can't find what National uses the 'A' for, although they do use it, their '512
is only
available as an 'A').

These suffix's can be combined:

    27C64BQM    high speed prog, quartz window, military temp range
    27C256QE    quartz window, extended temp range

National EPROMs also use NMC for a prefix: "National, Memory, Cmos"

After the letter suffix's, you will find some digits that define the access
speed of that part. This will be either 2 or 3 digits. This is the access
speed in nano-seconds.

Some full numbers:

    NMC27C512AQ120:

        120 nsec access time
        VCC = 5V +- 10%, 0C - 70C op range (commercial)
    

    NMC27C256CQ55

        55 nsec access time
        VCC = 5V +- 10%, 0C - 70C op range 


You can find additional information at Atmel's and Nationals' web sites. The
different
programming algorithm's can be interesting reading.

When I obtained EPROMS for this EFI project, I specified all National EPROMs
so that I could setup the programming for one chip manufacture. (I built my own
programmer). They are mostly the standard 27C256's with some 'E's mixed in.


HTH

BobR.

--






From mikebr at sr.hp.com  Fri Jan 22 14:08:57 1999
From: mikebr at sr.hp.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:08:57 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32573.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce,
	Haven't had enough time to tell yet.  Only started burning ROMs over
the Christmas holidays.  Been raining arround here so I have not been
able to make as many test runs as I would have liked.  This system is in
my '34 coupe.  Not the best test bed for rainy days.... too much
cleaning afterwards.  Nothing dramatic so far though.  I didn't even
know I had this problem till I started working on the code.  I think it
will make tuning a little more consistant.  Sometimes it would run real
good.  The next time a little off and you would have to correct for it.
Then the next time it was a little off the other way and you would have
to move the mixture back to where it was before.  Time will tell....
mike




Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Brown <mikebr at sr.hp.com>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 9:30 AM
> Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
> 
> Did this make a noticeable difference, finding and curing this bug?.
> Bruce
> 
> >I have reverse engineered the hardware and firmware on this system and
> >have corrected this bug.  If anybody out there has an Edelbrock ProFlow
> >and is interested in working together to improve it let me know as I
> >have functional schematics and documented source code (the code is full
> >of bugs I might add).  Been working steadily on this for over 7 months.
> >
> >Mike
> >


From daskren at bcpl.net  Fri Jan 22 15:00:47 1999
From: daskren at bcpl.net (David Askren)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:00:47 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32574.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>         Ya can buy Ford 24lbs injectors for about 250.00. just don't tell die hard
> gm people this- gets them all tweaked.
>
> Vance

Summit has them in the latest catalog from Ford Motorsport
Set of eight 19lb/hr $193
                   24lb/hr $199
                   30lb/hr $208
                   36lb/hr $369
Dave



From amattei at mindspring.com  Fri Jan 22 15:10:23 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:10:23 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32575.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

David Askren wrote:
> Summit has them in the latest catalog from Ford Motorsport
> Set of eight 19lb/hr $193
>                    24lb/hr $199
>                    30lb/hr $208
>                    36lb/hr $369

I've heard *rumor* that they don't *look* like they fit, but that they
actually fit fine. Guy on one of the Camaro lists sent his back 'cuz he
didn't think they fit. Turns out several others on the list were running
the same injectors with no prob.

When it comes time to put my engine back together ;) I'll be going with
(shhhh) the FoMoCo 24 lb'ers.

-Andrew (a die-hard Chevy fan, who knows the value of a buck)


From rgregory at chrysalis.org  Fri Jan 22 15:12:11 1999
From: rgregory at chrysalis.org (Ron Gregory)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:12:11 -0500
Subject: TPI trivia...
Message-ID: <mailman.32576.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

An article from Nov '95
4-Wheel & Off-Road,
called "How to buy EFI"

It talks all about the different TPIs...

*  TPI was produced from '85-'92
*  '85-'89 TPI used MAF
*  '85-'88 used cold-start injector
*  '86 started the one-piece rear main seal
*  '86 was last year for coil-in-cap HEI (F-body)
*  'Vettes kept big HEI through '92
*  '87 started center-bolt valve covers
*  '87 started hydraulic roller-cams
*  aluminum heads started in mid '86
    for 'vettes (never available for f-body)
*  '85 serpentine belts started in 'vette
*  '88 serpentine belts started in f-body

FYI,
~~~~~~
Ron Gregory                 Syclone VIN #1452
rgregory at iname.com          Garland, TX





From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Fri Jan 22 15:52:41 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:52:41 -0500
Subject: Service Manual
Message-ID: <mailman.32577.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Does anybody have a factory service manual for a 90' vette for sale?  I
just got the ECM  from one need the book.  Checked the price of a new
>book(from Hayes)!  Ouch.


From realsquash at yahoo.com  Fri Jan 22 15:58:19 1999
From: realsquash at yahoo.com (andy quaas)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:58:19 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32578.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Wouldn't carbon hinder flow around the head of the valve?  I see that
as the problem.

Andy

---"Kurek, Larry" <lkurek at anl.gov> wrote:
>
> Ok then....explain how this works to me....
> 
> The carbon on the back of the intake absorbs fuel, so it results in
a lean
> condition? I can see this happening on startup...but what happens
when the
> carbon is saturated? It WON'T absorb any more fuel, so how does it
still
> affect fuel ratios? I doubt it is a matter of absorbing fuel when
rich, then
> releasing it when leaner...and I doubt it would have a significant
impact
> anyhow. 
> 
> I think this is one of those urban myths...or is it one of those
mechanic
> myth things? :)
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> > 
> > On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:
> > 
> > > The sometimes less than accurate GM classes I've attended teach
that
> > > injection should occur when the intake valve is closed,and be
> > > completed immediately prior to intake valve opening.  This 
> > would make
> > > use of the heat in the head of the valve help keep fuel 
> > from pooling.
> > > This was mentioned earlier.  This might be GM's approach to sefi. 
> > > According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from
carbon
> > > accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
> > > reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
> > > losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust
is
> > > excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating 
> > the valve,
> > > preventing vaporization.
> > > Shannen
> > > 
> > The way I heard it [at a Mopar school] is that the carbon 
> > accumulation on
> > the back of the intake valve acts like a sponge, absorbing 
> > enough gasoline
> > that the A/F mixture is upset. IIRC, only at low and medium 
> > cruise power.
> > 
> > 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From ord at aei.ca  Fri Jan 22 16:03:24 1999
From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:03:24 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32579.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi - I am just returning to the list; I was previously a lurker here but other interests got in the way for a while.

Does anyone know where I can find some injectors that spray two cones?
Alternately, how about an injector where the spray is at a small (15 degree) angle relative to the body?
Or, in a perfect world, one that does both?  (Two cones, at an angle).
Worst case, I can try to work with some sort of deflector.

I am working on a project to deliver fuel at both valves on a multi-valve head.

Thanks,

Ord



From alaint at cgocable.ca  Fri Jan 22 16:34:32 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:34:32 -0500
Subject: Fw: Is your car Y2K Ready?
Message-ID: <mailman.32580.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

i received these e-mail in the past (not about Y2K but sent to
friend at public.com),if you receive it,i think there's maybe a bot looking
in mail archives to find e-mail address.....

AT

> Check this scam out!!!!  Geez!  Pay $10 to ask this guy 
> if your car is Y2k safe.  Gimmie a break.  I wonder how 
> many poor souls will fall for this.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Automotive Diagnostics, Inc <87193349 at 20891.com>
> To: Friend at public.com <Friend at public.com>
> Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 9:52 PM
> Subject: Is your car Y2K Ready?
> 
> >IS YOUR CAR Y2K SAFE?
> >      FIND OUT!
> >       $9.95
> >http://www.adiauto.com
> 
> 
> 
> 

Alain Toussaint
Drummondville
Quebec,Canada
alaint at cgocable.ca




From gderian at cybergate.net  Fri Jan 22 16:35:01 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:35:01 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32581.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

A deflector will collect the spray into a few big drops.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>Hi - I am just returning to the list; I was previously a lurker here but
other interests got in the way for a while.
>
>Does anyone know where I can find some injectors that spray two cones?
>Alternately, how about an injector where the spray is at a small (15
degree) angle relative to the body?
>Or, in a perfect world, one that does both?  (Two cones, at an angle).
>Worst case, I can try to work with some sort of deflector.
>
>I am working on a project to deliver fuel at both valves on a multi-valve
head.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ord



From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Fri Jan 22 16:35:29 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:35:29 -0500
Subject: 85-90 ecm conversion
Message-ID: <mailman.32582.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi Bruce and all

Sorry 90 up dash is an entirely different design.
You would have to change a whole bunch of things
to make it work

FYI the only thing the 85 dash needs from the ecm in
my vette is the mpg stuff. Every other sensor is independant
of the ecm.

gl:peter




From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Fri Jan 22 16:42:39 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:42:39 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32583.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

  Please give more information on "motor-vac".  How does it work?  How much does it cost?  Where do you get it?

Thanks,
Clarence

At 06:40 PM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
(snip)>I don't know if it acts as a sponge or what, but the presence / absence
>of carbon on the intake valves makes a SIGNIFICANT difference in
>driveability. The 3.0 litre V6 in my aerostar had a BAD stumble off idle
>when partly warmed up - to the point that on a cold day if I fired it up
>and drove to the corner down the street it would invariably stall when
>pulling away unless I floored it. Tried everything. Finally used a
>"motor-vac" on it, which does an excellent job of decarbonizing - and
>it's been perfect since.
>
>


From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Fri Jan 22 16:45:11 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:45:11 -0500
Subject: Service Manual
Message-ID: <mailman.32584.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Call Dave's books 1-920-921-8393 or Email dmasarik at thesurf.com  He got a 94
Vette manual for my buddy for $75 

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Guenther,Max [SMTP:Mguenther at ASCO.COM]
> Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 9:49 AM
> To:	'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'
> Subject:	Service Manual
> 
> 
> Does anybody have a factory service manual for a 90' vette for sale?  I
> just got the ECM  from one need the book.  Checked the price of a new
> >book(from Hayes)!  Ouch.


From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Fri Jan 22 16:56:54 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:56:54 -0500
Subject: Prom dates, er codes
Message-ID: <mailman.32585.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Could I bother you for some info on a 16196397  BKWX   ECM  it has was looks
like a small  cal pak  16171749   and under this number 1034148. It is a
under hood ECM and has an access door for the calpak.  The guy that gave it
to me  thinks it is off of a 96 camaro R/S with a V6.   Thanks for the help
Don

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 21, 1999 11:01 PM
> To:	DIY_EFI
> Subject:	Prom dates, er codes
> 
> As I understand proms, a 27C128, and 27128A are functionally
> the same, meaning they share CMOS technology.
>   Anything else may have a different programming voltage, and
> maybe of a slower operating speed??..
> 
>   On the few 512 proms I've seen they have all been "27512s", with
> no As or Cs?.   The ""s are cause I not absolutely sure of that.
> Thanks     Again reference to gm type memcals
> Bruce


From alipper at cardozo.org  Fri Jan 22 17:10:49 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:10:49 -0500
Subject: ECU6 - 8051 ASM files
Message-ID: <mailman.32586.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Rick,
	The files for the fuel injection system are available at
http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/

			Al


At 12:45 PM 1/22/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Sorry Al, I must have missed where the ECU6 is available from.  One more
>question.  Thanks for your help.  Great project.  
>
>rick
>




From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Fri Jan 22 17:39:39 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:39:39 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32587.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Motor vac was shown on shade tree mechanic last week. It is made by snap-on.
You disconnect your fuel and return line from the
 fuel rail connect them together so the fuel loops back to the tank. The
motor vac has its own gas tank and solvent tank, you set the pressure going
to the fuel rail.  

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Clarence Wood [SMTP:clarencewood at centuryinter.net]
> Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 3:09 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
> 
>   Please give more information on "motor-vac".  How does it work?  How
> much does it cost?  Where do you get it?
> 
> Thanks,
> Clarence
> 
> At 06:40 PM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
> (snip)>I don't know if it acts as a sponge or what, but the presence /
> absence
> >of carbon on the intake valves makes a SIGNIFICANT difference in
> >driveability. The 3.0 litre V6 in my aerostar had a BAD stumble off idle
> >when partly warmed up - to the point that on a cold day if I fired it up
> >and drove to the corner down the street it would invariably stall when
> >pulling away unless I floored it. Tried everything. Finally used a
> >"motor-vac" on it, which does an excellent job of decarbonizing - and
> >it's been perfect since.
> >
> >


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Fri Jan 22 17:56:45 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:56:45 -0500
Subject: Carbon pistons?.
Message-ID: <mailman.32588.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I wouldn't let breakage in a top-fuel engine deter me.  They'll probablly
work fine in something that runs on a more sane mixture.

Carbon pistons and connectiong rods hooked to a forged crank sounds like
it might be the ticket.

Ray


On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:58:57 EST ECMnut at aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 1/21/99 5:20:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>nacelp at bright.net
>writes:
>
>> If anyone wants to buy me a couple sets, I'll report the results,
>>  Cheers
>
>Top Fuel teams tried CF con-rods prolly 15+ years ago, but they
>were so tough, crank failures caused them to give it up...
>I guess other metals, like aluminum absorb (some) shock of
>combustion, where carbon fiber just passes it on...
>It will be interesting to see what happens with the pistons.
>MV
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Fri Jan 22 18:14:04 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:14:04 -0500
Subject: Another Non EFI Question
Message-ID: <mailman.32589.1369893294.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Peter Fenske wrote:

> 
> 
> Hi All
> 
> Hate to ask you another non efi guestion but
> on a dana 44 if when replacing a gear set
> The replacement pinion is stamped +0
> which is replacing a pinion stamped +1
> 
> This means I need a shim which is +1 thou
> bigger..
> 
> Question is the pattern gonna be off significantly
> if I use the old shim.
> 
No. 1 thou will not make a difference. Quite a few mfrs only offer shims
in 2 thou steps ...

My 2 cents, based on a few hundred Dana 35 to 70 ratio changes.




From afgun at mongoose.dearborn.sgi.com  Fri Jan 22 18:36:59 1999
From: afgun at mongoose.dearborn.sgi.com (Andrew F. Gunnesch)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:36:59 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32590.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Jan 21, 11:49pm, James Ballenger wrote:

>     What about the two injector per cylinder arrangement of some company
whose
> name I have forgotten.  IIRC, they had the first injector fire into the back
of
> the second injector.  At this point compressed air was shot in to atomize and
> build up pressure.  Then the second injector shot a mixture in which 80% or
> more was smaller than 10 microns.  Apparently they are already building
marine
> engines and have deals going with a few auto companies.  Anybody remember
that

Orbital Engine

http://www.orbeng.com.au/tech/di4ssae.htm

> article or their website?  Btw, I am new here and will be working on a
project
> to make a sefi 400/455 Pontiac, but don't have a damned clue how to so any
help
> or suggestions would be great.

Great scott!  Please keep me up-to-date on this project.  I want to FI a big
Poncho myself when I have the time to do the same.

--andrew


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 19:26:32 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:26:32 -0500
Subject: Is your car Y2K Ready?
Message-ID: <mailman.32591.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pitts <mpitts at emi.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 8:41 AM
Subject: Fw: Is your car Y2K Ready?

You mean me, and the boys wasted $80?.   Geez,
Gotta work Grumpy,Doc, Bashful,Sneezy, and Sleepy all
the harder now.
  OK, guys back to soldering those injectors together???.
Bruce


>
>Check this scam out!!!!  Geez!  Pay $10 to ask this guy 
>if your car is Y2k safe.  Gimmie a break.  I wonder how 
>many poor souls will fall for this.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Automotive Diagnostics, Inc <87193349 at 20891.com>
>To: Friend at public.com <Friend at public.com>
>Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 9:52 PM
>Subject: Is your car Y2K Ready?
>
>>IS YOUR CAR Y2K SAFE?
>>      FIND OUT!
>>       $9.95
>>http://www.adiauto.com
>
>
>



From gderian at cybergate.net  Fri Jan 22 19:34:03 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:34:03 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32592.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I haven't done the research myself but this makes good sense to me.  This is
a common problem and cleaning the valves cures it.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>
>Is this fact?, or theory?.
>Bruce
>
>
>>Carbon buildup on the back if an intake valve absorbs fuel.  During a
>>transition from part to full throttle, the carbon absorbs some of the
added
>>fuel causing a momentary lean condition, just like a wet flow manifold.
>>
>>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>



From flying.monkey at juno.com  Fri Jan 22 19:51:27 1999
From: flying.monkey at juno.com (WAYNE JOHNSON)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:51:27 -0500
Subject: Another Non EFI Question
Message-ID: <mailman.32593.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

+ means move it toward front of car. IMHO .001"  won't make that much
difference, but to do it right  you should check the pattern with gear
marking compound. Backlash may have to be adjusted, just remove thickness
from one side and add the same amount to the other side. Shoot for
.004-.008 backlash with pattern centered on drive side of tooth.

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:43:22 -0800 "Peter Fenske" <pfenske at bcit.bc.ca>
writes:
>
>
>Hi All
>
>Hate to ask you another non efi guestion but
>on a dana 44 if when replacing a gear set
>The replacement pinion is stamped +0
>which is replacing a pinion stamped +1
>
>This means I need a shim which is +1 thou
>bigger..
>
>Question is the pattern gonna be off significantly
>if I use the old shim.
>
>TIA:peter
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 19:51:33 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:51:33 -0500
Subject: Carbon pistons?.
Message-ID: <mailman.32594.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Marsh <bmarsh at turing.une.edu.au>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Cc: DIY_EFI <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: Carbon pistons?.

Key word would normally be Carbon Fiber, what messes that up is
licensed by NASA.
  Take the zip code of somewhere in LA, 2x and add your next three 
birthdays ages to it.  That should al least cover one,,,,
Bruce


>Anyone have any idea what a set of these things would cost?
>:P
>Ben
>
>On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:
>
>> If anyone wants to buy me a couple sets, I'll report the results,
>> Cheers
>> Bruce        Doc has already got the ceramic glazing paint
>>                   chart out.   He thinks carbon fiber, ceramics
>>                   composites are all the same thing (all the c's
>>                   confuse the little guy)
>> 
>> >http://nctn.hq.nasa.gov/innovation/Innovation54/complic.htm.
>> 
>> 
>



From kv at us.ibm.com  Fri Jan 22 20:01:05 1999
From: kv at us.ibm.com (kv at us.ibm.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:01:05 -0500
Subject: Is your car Y2K Ready?
Message-ID: <mailman.32595.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>





I called these guys outta curiousity... he was pretty decent with me.  Said
that 98% of the cars are OK but some luxury cars (GM)  (like Caddy)  report
the date to test equipment during diagnostics...   apparently this is kept
in the "Body Control Module"-  and will need some sort of upgrade when Y2K
rolls around...

I told him I couldn't even keep the clock right on my radio---  he
chuckled!

I am an eternal skeptic (but also somewhat ignorant) when it comes to these
things but he did seem *somewhat* believable...   I guess if I had a late
model Caddy I would look into it at least--- since I don't-  and never
will... (can't climb over rocks with one of them)-  I'll move on.

Anyway-  FYI.

________________________________________________
  Kevin Vannorsdel     IBM Arm Electronics Development
   408-256-6492                Tie 276-6492     kv at us.ibm.com



"Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net> on 01/22/99 11:29:43 AM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu

To:   diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
cc:    (bcc: Kevin Vannorsdel/San Jose/IBM)
Subject:  Re: Is your car Y2K Ready?






-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pitts <mpitts at emi.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 8:41 AM
Subject: Fw: Is your car Y2K Ready?

You mean me, and the boys wasted $80?.   Geez,
Gotta work Grumpy,Doc, Bashful,Sneezy, and Sleepy all
the harder now.
  OK, guys back to soldering those injectors together???.
Bruce


>
>Check this scam out!!!!  Geez!  Pay $10 to ask this guy
>if your car is Y2k safe.  Gimmie a break.  I wonder how
>many poor souls will fall for this.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Automotive Diagnostics, Inc <87193349 at 20891.com>
>To: Friend at public.com <Friend at public.com>
>Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 9:52 PM
>Subject: Is your car Y2K Ready?
>
>>IS YOUR CAR Y2K SAFE?
>>      FIND OUT!
>>       $9.95
>>http://www.adiauto.com
>
>
>






From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Fri Jan 22 20:06:44 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:06:44 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32596.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The Ford injectors will fit GM applications? Has anyone actually tested this on
a TPI system?


Charles Brooks

David Askren wrote:

> >         Ya can buy Ford 24lbs injectors for about 250.00. just don't tell die hard
> > gm people this- gets them all tweaked.
> >
> > Vance
>
> Summit has them in the latest catalog from Ford Motorsport
> Set of eight 19lb/hr $193
>                    24lb/hr $199
>                    30lb/hr $208
>                    36lb/hr $369
> Dave



From pford at qnx.com  Fri Jan 22 20:12:02 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:12:02 -0500
Subject: water injection But preturbo
Message-ID: <mailman.32597.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi There
 Sorry to dig up the same old thread but has anyone tried water injection 
in the exhaust?? correct me if I'm wrong but if you injected water ( not 
much) it turns into steam ( around 700X volume increase { foggy where i 
got that number}) and the turbo should spool up pretty fast. I don't see 
this as a full time thing but as a way to fight turbo lag

btw I've learned alot lurking here

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Fri Jan 22 20:23:04 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:23:04 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32598.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>On Jan 21, 11:49pm, James Ballenger wrote:
>Great scott!  Please keep me up-to-date on this project.  I want to FI a big
>Poncho myself when I have the time to do the same.
>
>--andrew
>
>I'd really rather have a Buick.  I was thinking a Buick 455 and two GM TBI on
> a dual quad intake.  Just make some adapters from four bbl to TBI's and GM
>HEI's are still available for that engine (junk yard).  Now for the
>PROM...........
>Max
>


From TEBUTLER at mccain.ca  Fri Jan 22 20:33:38 1999
From: TEBUTLER at mccain.ca (BUTLER, Tom)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:33:38 -0500
Subject: water injection But preturbo
Message-ID: <mailman.32599.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Don't know if they still do but B-52's used to inject water into their
exhaust on take-off for a much needed boost when fully laden.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Pat Ford [SMTP:pford at qnx.com]
> Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 4:12 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	water injection But preturbo
> 
> Hi There
>  Sorry to dig up the same old thread but has anyone tried water injection 
> in the exhaust?? correct me if I'm wrong but if you injected water ( not 
> much) it turns into steam ( around 700X volume increase { foggy where i 
> got that number}) and the turbo should spool up pretty fast. I don't see 
> this as a full time thing but as a way to fight turbo lag
> 
> btw I've learned alot lurking here
> 
> Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
> QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
> (613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
> (613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 20:38:21 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:38:21 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32600.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: injector impedance

Dun all the time.  Some designs vary but the O-Ring seals wind up in the
right place
Bruce


>The Ford injectors will fit GM applications? Has anyone actually tested
this on
>a TPI system?
>
>
>Charles Brooks
>
>David Askren wrote:
>
>> >         Ya can buy Ford 24lbs injectors for about 250.00. just don't
tell die hard
>> > gm people this- gets them all tweaked.
>> >
>> > Vance
>>
>> Summit has them in the latest catalog from Ford Motorsport
>> Set of eight 19lb/hr $193
>>                    24lb/hr $199
>>                    30lb/hr $208
>>                    36lb/hr $369
>> Dave
>



From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Fri Jan 22 20:45:54 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:45:54 -0500
Subject: Is your car Y2K Ready?
Message-ID: <mailman.32601.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> that 98% of the cars are OK but some luxury cars (GM)  (like Caddy)  report
> the date to test equipment during diagnostics...   apparently this is kept
> in the "Body Control Module"-  and will need some sort of upgrade when Y2K
> rolls around...

There are a lot of things that won't be y2k compliant, and I
would feel comfortable agreeing that some luxury cars have
dates buried in their code somewhere for logging purposes.

But in reality, if the date is wrong, does the car not
function?  Naaaah.  Just log the wrong date.  Me, I could
live with that !


-- 
Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

http://www.xephic.dynip.com
1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 20:45:58 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:45:58 -0500
Subject: Prom dates, er codes
Message-ID: <mailman.32602.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com <Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 12:09 PM
Subject: RE: Prom dates, er codes


95 Man tranny 3.4 camemo.
Bruce


>Could I bother you for some info on a 16196397  BKWX   ECM  it has was
looks
>like a small  cal pak  16171749   and under this number 1034148. It is a
>under hood ECM and has an access door for the calpak.  The guy that gave it
>to me  thinks it is off of a 96 camaro R/S with a V6.   Thanks for the help
>Don
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 11:01 PM
>> To: DIY_EFI
>> Subject: Prom dates, er codes
>>
>> As I understand proms, a 27C128, and 27128A are functionally
>> the same, meaning they share CMOS technology.
>>   Anything else may have a different programming voltage, and
>> maybe of a slower operating speed??..
>>
>>   On the few 512 proms I've seen they have all been "27512s", with
>> no As or Cs?.   The ""s are cause I not absolutely sure of that.
>> Thanks     Again reference to gm type memcals
>> Bruce
>



From frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com  Fri Jan 22 20:47:49 1999
From: frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:47:49 -0500
Subject: water injection But preturbo
Message-ID: <mailman.32603.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> in the exhaust?? correct me if I'm wrong but if you injected water ( not
> much) it turns into steam ( around 700X volume increase { foggy where i

Bob the computer guy suggested it, I tried it, and under
certain circumstances, you get more boost.  If, and only if
the headers are extremely hot, as in lots of high power
usage at high RPMs.  Once the headers cool off (i.e. idling
for a while), there seems to be no effect, and you crack
your headers.  Did this successfully.  Stainless headers
didn't crack though, once we upgraded.


-- 
Frederic Breitwieser
Bridgeport, CT 06606

http://www.xephic.dynip.com
1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 20:49:05 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:49:05 -0500
Subject: water injection But preturbo
Message-ID: <mailman.32604.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Pat Ford <pford at qnx.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 3:23 PM
Subject: water injection But preturbo

Hmm, makes ya wonder, don't it...
Bruce


>Hi There
> Sorry to dig up the same old thread but has anyone tried water injection 
>in the exhaust?? correct me if I'm wrong but if you injected water ( not 
>much) it turns into steam ( around 700X volume increase { foggy where i 
>got that number}) and the turbo should spool up pretty fast. I don't see 
>this as a full time thing but as a way to fight turbo lag
>
>btw I've learned alot lurking here
>
>Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
>QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
>(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
>(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8
>



From tparker at nznet.gen.nz  Fri Jan 22 21:12:26 1999
From: tparker at nznet.gen.nz (Tom Parker)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:12:26 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32605.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

HADJIASLANIS ARIS     1260 800 <aris at exmail.panafon.gr> wrote:

>after following your inputs and using the web as much as I could, I have
>now found and ordered a XR 700 ignition unit from Crane Cams which WILL

I have one of these in my Mini, they are pritty good.

>My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ...
>"... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
>unit
>implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16
>sites.
>4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
>degrees of detonation induced retard.
>5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
>breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
>(already fitted in my car)...."

I am attempting to build the system that is on the diy_efi web page. However,
due to lack of funds, and the fact that my brakes don't work right, I haven't
made much progress beyond deciding to use an off the shelf single board
computer and a custom interface board to go with it.

I plan to extend the design to take note of a MAP sensor, maybe a TPS sensor
and maybe also a knock sensor.

I looked at the picknpoke design (this is the kit that Jaycar in australia
sell). It has a two stage advance curve. You can specify the steepness of the
advance in two lines. It doesn't have a very good (IMO) vacuume advance
system, and the biggest problem is that you can't change the program without
reverse engineering it.

Having said that, it is cheap, and it is available now.

--
Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/



From kenkelly at lucent.com  Fri Jan 22 21:13:18 1999
From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:13:18 -0500
Subject: Service Manual
Message-ID: <mailman.32606.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I bought my 96 F-body Service manuals used from:

 Dan Brower 
factorya at tir.com

	It worked well for me and cost about half the factory
price.

			Ken

Guenther,Max wrote:
> 
> Does anybody have a factory service manual for a 90' vette for sale?  I
> just got the ECM  from one need the book.  Checked the price of a new
> >book(from Hayes)!  Ouch.


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Fri Jan 22 21:42:04 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:42:04 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32607.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Hi Charles

Yep am running Ford Motorsport 30LB injectors on
my vette. Work great. Actually they are bosch injectors.
Only small descrepancy is that they measure bout 14 ohms
versus gm multecs measure 16 ohms.. No muss

:peter





Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net> on 01/22/99 12:09:20 PM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To:      diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu                   
                                                              
 cc:      (bcc: Peter Fenske/BCIT)                            
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: Re: injector impedance                              
                                                              








The Ford injectors will fit GM applications? Has anyone actually tested
this on
a TPI system?


Charles Brooks

David Askren wrote:

> >         Ya can buy Ford 24lbs injectors for about 250.00. just don't
tell die hard
> > gm people this- gets them all tweaked.
> >
> > Vance
>
> Summit has them in the latest catalog from Ford Motorsport
> Set of eight 19lb/hr $193
>                    24lb/hr $199
>                    30lb/hr $208
>                    36lb/hr $369
> Dave






From mpitts at netspeak.com  Fri Jan 22 21:47:24 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:47:24 -0500
Subject: EFI on a big block
Message-ID: <mailman.32608.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


It's been done.  Jim Haas in Miami has a fuel injected 
and stroked Buick GS 455.  The last time I saw it, he 
was using a DFI.  I wouldn't be surprised if he's using 
a FelPro now.

His e-mail is Buick528 at aol.com if you want to get the 
low-down on the setup.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
>I'd really rather have a Buick.  I was thinking a Buick 455 and two GM TBI
on
> a dual quad intake.  Just make some adapters from four bbl to TBI's and GM
>HEI's are still available for that engine (junk yard).  Now for the
>PROM...........
>Max



From Teller.John at orbital.com  Fri Jan 22 21:49:53 1999
From: Teller.John at orbital.com (Teller.John at orbital.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:49:53 -0500
Subject: Is your car Y2K Ready?
Message-ID: <mailman.32609.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

No problem unless the car computer outsmarts itself when it detects time
going backwards (99-00) and decides its real time clock is defective.  The
results from this could be either a Check Engine Soon light (with Replace
ECU code stored) to resetting the of RTC time to something it thinks is
reasonable, like 01/01/94 00:00:00 (as does the Award BIOS in my cheap
Taiwanese Pentium when the rollover occurs).





Frederic Breitwieser <frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com> on 01/22/99
03:40:50 PM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To:      diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu                   
                                                              
 cc:      (bcc: John Teller/ORBVA)                            
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: Re: Is your car Y2K Ready?                          
                                                              








There are a lot of things that won't be y2k compliant, and I
would feel comfortable agreeing that some luxury cars have
dates buried in their code somewhere for logging purposes.

But in reality, if the date is wrong, does the car not
function?  Naaaah.  Just log the wrong date.  Me, I could
live with that !

<SNIP>




From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 21:50:14 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:50:14 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32610.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Parker <tparker at nznet.gen.nz>
To: HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance

Just as a minor point. The Italians have many many cars that get along
just fine without using a vac advance.  While USA/Eng/Asian have
relied on them for years, not so from across the other ocean.
And how many motorcycles bother with a vac advance?.
While a knock sensor sounds nice, a properly tuned would only need it
when junk gas is bought. They can also lure the owner into a false security.
Which I'm sad to say I'm finding happening way to often.

With a knock sensor no audible ping, so granny saves a few pennies here
and there on gas, but anytime she gets on it the timing retards, and carbon
builds
up unessecarily.  Enough builds, and eventually the little flakes break off
and hold an exhaust valve just slightly off it's seat. Valve runs too hot,
and
burns.  So granny never heard that she should have been running better
gas, since there was no ping, and now at 50K needs a valve job.
  If ya feel the need for running a KS, I'd strongly recommend a visual/
audible alert when it's triggered.
Bruce


>HADJIASLANIS ARIS     1260 800 <aris at exmail.panafon.gr> wrote:
>
>>after following your inputs and using the web as much as I could, I have
>>now found and ordered a XR 700 ignition unit from Crane Cams which WILL
>
>I have one of these in my Mini, they are pritty good.
>
>>My original posting to which you replied most kindly was ...
>>"... 3. Feed the optical pick up output to a digital advance / retard
>>unit
>>implementing a simple, programmable advance curve capable of at least 16
>>sites.
>>4. Optionally add an imput for a detonation sensor to provide a few
>>degrees of detonation induced retard.
>>5. The unit should just provide an output emulating a normal contact
>>breaker, to drive a separate high energy electronic ignition unit
>>(already fitted in my car)...."
>
>I am attempting to build the system that is on the diy_efi web page.
However,
>due to lack of funds, and the fact that my brakes don't work right, I
haven't
>made much progress beyond deciding to use an off the shelf single board
>computer and a custom interface board to go with it.
>
>I plan to extend the design to take note of a MAP sensor, maybe a TPS
sensor
>and maybe also a knock sensor.
>
>I looked at the picknpoke design (this is the kit that Jaycar in australia
>sell). It has a two stage advance curve. You can specify the steepness of
the
>advance in two lines. It doesn't have a very good (IMO) vacuume advance
>system, and the biggest problem is that you can't change the program
without
>reverse engineering it.
>
>Having said that, it is cheap, and it is available now.
>
>--
>Tom Parker - tparker at nznet.gen.nz
>           - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/
>



From wsherwin at idirect.com  Fri Jan 22 21:55:14 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:55:14 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32611.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Gary, would it be possible to redirect the flow even slightly with a
deflector, without creating globs of fuel?  What about a deflector with
holes and patterns and such?  I am just wondering aloud because it would be
nice to find a way to deflect fuel into a more favourable trajectory when
"EFI'ing" non EFI manifolds.  Anybody thoughts?

Thanks;
Walt.


-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: dual spray injectors


>A deflector will collect the spray into a few big drops.
>
>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>
>>Hi - I am just returning to the list; I was previously a lurker here but
>other interests got in the way for a while.
>>
>>Does anyone know where I can find some injectors that spray two cones?
>>Alternately, how about an injector where the spray is at a small (15
>degree) angle relative to the body?
>>Or, in a perfect world, one that does both?  (Two cones, at an angle).
>>Worst case, I can try to work with some sort of deflector.
>>
>>I am working on a project to deliver fuel at both valves on a multi-valve
>head.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Ord
>



From Chaasman at aol.com  Fri Jan 22 21:56:47 1999
From: Chaasman at aol.com (Chaasman at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:56:47 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32612.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/22/99 11:06:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, ord at aei.ca
writes:

> 
>  Hi - I am just returning to the list; I was previously a lurker here but 
> other interests got in the way for a while.
>  
>  Does anyone know where I can find some injectors that spray two cones?
>  Alternately, how about an injector where the spray is at a small (15
degree) 
> angle relative to the body?
>  Or, in a perfect world, one that does both?  (Two cones, at an angle).
>  Worst case, I can try to work with some sort of deflector.
>  
>  I am working on a project to deliver fuel at both valves on a multi-valve 
> head.
>  
>  Thanks,
>  
>  Ord
>  


Try a '96ish Tercel for "dual" cones... 

Carl


From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Fri Jan 22 22:10:40 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:10:40 -0500
Subject: Those Holden Bins I uploaded are N.G.
Message-ID: <mailman.32613.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Oops, seems I may have stuffed up with some previously uploaded Bins, I
thought they were all 27256, seems the auto trans ones must be 27512's.

This would include - BLCB, BWFU, and BWCS9976. Sorry if this has caused
any drama's for anybody, I'm pretty sure the Manual Bins are O.K as the
checksum works.

I'll have to re-read the others I uploaded, in the mean time the
BLCC5074.BIN Auto Bin I recently uploaded should be 100% O.K.

Check out from $4660 onwards, plain text!!!.

Bye

Ross




From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Fri Jan 22 22:13:47 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:13:47 -0500
Subject: Prom dates, er codes
Message-ID: <mailman.32614.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks for your help
                      Don

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
> Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 2:49 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Prom dates, er codes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---Original Message-----
> From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com <Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 12:09 PM
> Subject: RE: Prom dates, er codes
> 
> 
> 95 Man tranny 3.4 camemo.
> Bruce
> 
> 
> >Could I bother you for some info on a 16196397  BKWX   ECM  it has was
> looks
> >like a small  cal pak  16171749   and under this number 1034148. It is a
> >under hood ECM and has an access door for the calpak.  The guy that gave
> it
> >to me  thinks it is off of a 96 camaro R/S with a V6.   Thanks for the
> help
> >Don
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
> >> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 11:01 PM
> >> To: DIY_EFI
> >> Subject: Prom dates, er codes
> >>
> >> As I understand proms, a 27C128, and 27128A are functionally
> >> the same, meaning they share CMOS technology.
> >>   Anything else may have a different programming voltage, and
> >> maybe of a slower operating speed??..
> >>
> >>   On the few 512 proms I've seen they have all been "27512s", with
> >> no As or Cs?.   The ""s are cause I not absolutely sure of that.
> >> Thanks     Again reference to gm type memcals
> >> Bruce
> >


From TMead17327 at aol.com  Fri Jan 22 22:18:47 1999
From: TMead17327 at aol.com (TMead17327 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:18:47 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32615.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

"So granny never heard that she should have been running better
gas, since there was no ping"

Granny can't hear very well, anyway!

Tommy
TMead17327 at aol.com


From gderian at cybergate.net  Fri Jan 22 22:33:51 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:33:51 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32616.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I don't think so.  Think about spraying your hand with a garden hose nozzle.
Any drop that hits the deflector will glob up.  Like an oil pan windage
tray.  I suppose at some velocity the drops could bounce back off.  Anyone
else?

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>


>Gary, would it be possible to redirect the flow even slightly with a
>deflector, without creating globs of fuel?  What about a deflector with
>holes and patterns and such?  I am just wondering aloud because it would be
>nice to find a way to deflect fuel into a more favourable trajectory when
>"EFI'ing" non EFI manifolds.  Anybody thoughts?
>
>Thanks;
>Walt.
>
>
>>A deflector will collect the spray into a few big drops.
>>
>>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>>
>>>Hi - I am just returning to the list; I was previously a lurker here but
>>other interests got in the way for a while.
>>>
>>>Does anyone know where I can find some injectors that spray two cones?
>>>Alternately, how about an injector where the spray is at a small (15
>>degree) angle relative to the body?
>>>Or, in a perfect world, one that does both?  (Two cones, at an angle).
>>>Worst case, I can try to work with some sort of deflector.
>>>
>>>I am working on a project to deliver fuel at both valves on a multi-valve
>>head.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Ord
>>



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Fri Jan 22 22:34:05 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:34:05 -0500
Subject: Is your car Y2K Ready?
Message-ID: <mailman.32617.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Bruce Plecan wrote:

> You mean me, and the boys wasted $80?.   Geez,
> Gotta work Grumpy,Doc, Bashful,Sneezy, and Sleepy all
> the harder now.
>   OK, guys back to soldering those injectors together???.
> Bruce

They just had me send them a picture of my carb.  They'll get back to me
in two weeks and let me know if I have anything to worry about.

--steve


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Fri Jan 22 22:35:17 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:35:17 -0500
Subject: Ford injector s
Message-ID: <mailman.32618.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I just found the page, I think I'm going to pick up a set of 30Lb injectors.
At $208, it's less than half the price of the GM injectors!!

Charles Brooks




From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 23:01:47 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:01:47 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32619.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: dual spray injectors

Blowing atomized fuel at a flat wall has very little penalty, to nice pretty
ports.
It sounds crazy but shearing fuel/air, and flat walls aint that bad.
  Depending on your purpose, might due just as well letting the fuel take
it's
own course.  Blowing the fuel against a deflector, may do exactly the
opposite
of what you'd expect.  Intake air is very dynamic.
Bruce


>I don't think so.  Think about spraying your hand with a garden hose
nozzle.
>Any drop that hits the deflector will glob up.  Like an oil pan windage
>tray.  I suppose at some velocity the drops could bounce back off.  Anyone
>else?
>
>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>
>
>>Gary, would it be possible to redirect the flow even slightly with a
>>deflector, without creating globs of fuel?  What about a deflector with
>>holes and patterns and such?  I am just wondering aloud because it would
be
>>nice to find a way to deflect fuel into a more favourable trajectory when
>>"EFI'ing" non EFI manifolds.  Anybody thoughts?
>>
>>Thanks;
>>Walt.
>>
>>
>>>A deflector will collect the spray into a few big drops.
>>>
>>>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>>>
>>>>Hi - I am just returning to the list; I was previously a lurker here but
>>>other interests got in the way for a while.
>>>>
>>>>Does anyone know where I can find some injectors that spray two cones?
>>>>Alternately, how about an injector where the spray is at a small (15
>>>degree) angle relative to the body?
>>>>Or, in a perfect world, one that does both?  (Two cones, at an angle).
>>>>Worst case, I can try to work with some sort of deflector.
>>>>
>>>>I am working on a project to deliver fuel at both valves on a
multi-valve
>>>head.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>Ord
>>>
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 23:08:17 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:08:17 -0500
Subject: Those Holden Bins I uploaded are N.G.
Message-ID: <mailman.32620.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Myers <ponty at axis.jeack.com.au>
To: EFI List <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 5:21 PM
Subject: Those Holden Bins I uploaded are N.G.

It's conforting to see others qualify for CSHs
>g<
Cheers
Bruce


>Oops, seems I may have stuffed up with some previously uploaded Bins, I
>thought they were all 27256, seems the auto trans ones must be 27512's.
>
>This would include - BLCB, BWFU, and BWCS9976. Sorry if this has caused
>any drama's for anybody, I'm pretty sure the Manual Bins are O.K as the
>checksum works.
>
>I'll have to re-read the others I uploaded, in the mean time the
>BLCC5074.BIN Auto Bin I recently uploaded should be 100% O.K.
>
>Check out from $4660 onwards, plain text!!!.
>
>Bye
>
>Ross
>
>



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Fri Jan 22 23:28:46 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:28:46 -0500
Subject: Carbon pistons?.
Message-ID: <mailman.32621.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Marsh <bmarsh at turing.une.edu.au>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Cc: DIY_EFI <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 8:20 AM
> Subject: Re: Carbon pistons?.
> 
> Key word would normally be Carbon Fiber, what messes that up is
> licensed by NASA.
>   Take the zip code of somewhere in LA, 2x and add your next three 
> birthdays ages to it.  That should al least cover one,,,,
> Bruce
> 
> 

I don't think those pistons are carbon fiber.  They would almost have
to be a single cast piece of some sort.   I don't know how you would
do that with carbon, but that must be it.  Carbon fiber work is pretty
common (there is actually a operating plant about 200-300 meters away
from where I work making large amounts of carbon fiber).   I guess
they could have a process for putting together carbon fibre and then
running some process against it to solidify it together.  I expect we
are talking about thousands per piston though, but they would be
nitrous/blower/knock proof.

				Roger



From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 22 23:50:42 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:50:42 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32622.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Greg Hermann wrote:
>
>> There are lots of folks in the industry working on developing ways to make
>> efi do these things better. I am working on the same thing as a hobby. When
>> I get an engine built, and get some test results, I will share them. But
>> some money is definitely going where my mouth is!!! That is so because I
>> believe that the above outline of the situation is sound
>> engineering/science and I want a better performing engine(s).
>
>    What about the two injector per cylinder arrangement of some company whose
>name I have forgotten.  IIRC, they had the first injector fire into the back of
>the second injector.  At this point compressed air was shot in to atomize and
>build up pressure.  Then the second injector shot a mixture in which 80% or
>more was smaller than 10 microns.  Apparently they are already building marine
>engines and have deals going with a few auto companies.  Anybody remember that
>article or their website?  Btw, I am new here and will be working on a project
>to make a sefi 400/455 Pontiac, but don't have a damned clue how to so any help
>or suggestions would be great.
>
>James Ballenger

I Think you are talking about Orbital, their stuff is for direct, in
cylinder injection. Mercury Marine'sa DFI 200 motor uses Orbital stuff.
Could also be Splitcycle. Both from Oz.

Greg




From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 22 23:52:13 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:52:13 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32623.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Brown <mikebr at sr.hp.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths

I hope you plan on keeping "us" up to date.  Sounds really interesting.
Bruce


>Bruce,
 This system is in
>my '34 coupe.  Not the best test bed for rainy days.... too much
>cleaning afterwards.  Nothing dramatic so far though.  I didn't even
 Sometimes it would run real
>good.  The next time a little off and you would have to correct for it.
>Then the next time it was a little off the other way and you would have
>to move the mixture back to where it was before.
>mike




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 22 23:53:24 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:53:24 -0500
Subject: Av gas(was: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths)
Message-ID: <mailman.32624.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>In Canada it's illegal to put anywhere but into a plane -

No offense, but doncha love creeping socialism--or is it socialist
creeps??? :-)

can't even buy
>it to use in a race-car.

Regards, Greg




From PBRUNN at aol.com  Sat Jan 23 00:07:59 1999
From: PBRUNN at aol.com (PBRUNN at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:07:59 -0500
Subject: Bosch Injector List
Message-ID: <mailman.32625.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_917049726_boundary
Content-ID: <0_917049726 at inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

A list of bosch injectors and flow rates

hope it helps

philipp

--part0_917049726_boundary
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<META  name=3D"description" content=3D"Juha's Bosch injector datas">=0D
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d-jetronic, motronic, suutin, jetronic">=0D
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<TITLE>BOSCH SUUTTIMET, Bosch Fuel-Injectors</TITLE>=0D
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<P>=0D
<PRE>=0D
=0D
 (paineella 300kPa)=0D
-------------------------------------------------------------------=0D
                                 Moottori miss&auml; ko. suutinta=0D
 Bosch numero   Suihkutusm&auml;&auml;r&auml;   mm. k&auml;ytet&auml;&aum=
l;n=0D
-------------------------------------------------------------------=0D
 0 280 150 001  265 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 002  265 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 003  380 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 009  265 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 155 009  346 cm3/min      Saab Turbo=0D
 0 280 150 015  380 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 024  380 cm3/min      Volvo B30E=0D
 0 280 150 026  380 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 036  380 cm3/min      MB 4.5l=0D
 0 280 150 041  480 cm3/min      MB 6.9l V8 / Cadillac=0D
 0 280 150 043  380 cm3/min      BMW=0D
 0 280 150 100  185 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 121  178 cm3/min=0D
 B 280 410 144  434 cm3/min      Bosch R-SPORT=0D
 0 280 150 200  300 cm3/min      BMW=0D
 0 280 150 201  236 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 203  185 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 208  133 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 209  176 cm3/min      Volvo B200-B230=0D
 0 280 150 211  146 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 335  300 cm3/min      Volvo B230 turbo=0D
 0 280 150 400  437 cm3/min      Ford 4.5l=0D
 0 280 150 401  437 cm3/min      Ford=0D
 0 280 150 402  338 cm3/min      Ford=0D
 0 280 150 403  503 cm3/min      Ford=0D
 0 280 150 614  189 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 704  170 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 706  214 cm3/min      250kPa=0D
 0 180 150 712  214 cm3/min      250kPa Saab Turbo 2.3l=0D
 0 280 150 715  149 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 716  134 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 762  214 cm3/min      Volvo B230F=0D
 0 280 150 802  284 cm3/min      Volvo B200 turbo, Renault J7R turbo=0D
 0 280 150 804  337 cm3/min      Peugeot 505T=0D
 0 180 150 811  298 cm3/min      3.5kPa Porsche Turbo 944=0D
 0 280 150 814  384 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 834  397 cm3/min=0D
 0 280 150 835  397 cm3/min      Chrysler=0D
 0 180 150 951  346 cm3/min      Porsche Turbo=0D
-------------------------------------------------------------------=0D
=0D
 <A HREF=3D"http://www.co.jyu.fi/~rax/inject.pdf">table in .PDF -format!<=
/A>=0D
=0D
 Pelkistetty laskukaava jolla saadaan melko tarkasti=0D
 selville, mik&auml; on suuttimen tuoton oltava tietyn tehon=0D
 aikaansaamiseksi.=0D
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              7 * moottorin teho (kW)=0D
 cm3/min =3D -----------------------------=0D
                suuttimien lukum&auml;&auml;r&auml;=0D
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=0D
 Moottorin teho =3D 300kW=0D
 Suuttimien lukum&auml;&auml;r&auml; =3D 4=0D
=0D
 7 * 300(kW) / 4 =3D 525 cm3/min=0D
=0D
 N&auml;in ollen kunkin suuttimen tuotto pit&auml;&auml; olla luokkaa 525=
 cm3/min=0D
=0D
 Oletukset:=0D
=0D
        - lambda n. 0.85-0.9=0D
        - suuttimen aukiolo n. 90%=0D
        - polttoaineen tiheys n. 0.75=0D
=0D
</PRE>=0D
<UL><BR>=0D
 Kaavaa on vain suuntaa antava, mm. ilman kosteus,=0D
 l&auml;mp&ouml;tila sek&auml; polttoaineen=0D
 l&auml;p&ouml;tila (tiheys) vaikuttavat ratkaisevasti=0D
 lopputulokseen. Kaavan antama tuotto on kuitenkin=0D
 sit&auml; luokkaa ett&auml; m&auml;ntien sulaminen=0D
 ei pit&auml;isi olla ongelma, en kuitenkaan ota=0D
 vastuuta mik&auml;li n&auml;in kuitenkin k&auml;y;).=0D
 Loppujen lopuksi empiirinen tutkimus on=0D
 t&auml;ss&auml;kin asiassa rautaa, eli kannattaa=0D
 aina kysy&auml; joltakulta kenell&auml; on=0D
 k&auml;yt&auml;nn&ouml;n kokemusta ko.=0D
 moottorityypin virityksest&auml;, mik&auml; olisi sopivin suutin.=0D
</UL>=0D
</BODY>=0D
</HTML>=0D


--part0_917049726_boundary--


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 23 00:10:11 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:10:11 -0500
Subject: Another Non EFI Question
Message-ID: <mailman.32626.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hi All
>
>Hate to ask you another non efi guestion but
>on a dana 44 if when replacing a gear set
>The replacement pinion is stamped +0
>which is replacing a pinion stamped +1
>
>This means I need a shim which is +1 thou
>bigger..
>
>Question is the pattern gonna be off significantly
>if I use the old shim.
>
>TIA:peter

But if you are using a new inner pinion bearing, as you should, it might be
more than one thou off. Lotsa folks don't realize it, but the end to end
height of std. tolerance Timken type tapered roller bearings (inner race at
one end to outer race at the other end) varies about .008"! You will need
to reset the pinion depth to have it right. IIRC, the +.001 means to add
.001" to the standard pinion depth in the housing, as measured from the
centerline of the carrier bearings (the parting line of the carrier bearing
caps). So a +1 pinion replacing a 0 MIGHT require .001" LESS shim IF the
new bearing were the same height as the old one. Again, IIRC, the standard
pinion depth dimension for a Dana 44 is 2.625"---BUT CHECK ME ON ALL OF
THIS!!!

Regards, Greg




From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sat Jan 23 00:22:45 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:22:45 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32627.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

That's great to know, did you have any problems with the electrical
connector?

Charles

Peter Fenske wrote:

> Hi Charles
>
> Yep am running Ford Motorsport 30LB injectors on
> my vette. Work great. Actually they are bosch injectors.
> Only small descrepancy is that they measure bout 14 ohms
> versus gm multecs measure 16 ohms.. No muss



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 23 00:25:12 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:25:12 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32628.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hi - I am just returning to the list; I was previously a lurker here but
>other interests got in the way for a while.
>
>Does anyone know where I can find some injectors that spray two cones?
>Alternately, how about an injector where the spray is at a small (15
>degree) angle relative to the body?
>Or, in a perfect world, one that does both?  (Two cones, at an angle).
>Worst case, I can try to work with some sort of deflector.
>
>I am working on a project to deliver fuel at both valves on a multi-valve head.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ord

Try talking to Kinsler FI in Troy MI,--they oughtta know. IIRC, the double
cone units are out there.

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 23 00:25:13 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:25:13 -0500
Subject: Creeping nonsense
Message-ID: <mailman.32629.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>Time to Act - Governement wants to charge for Internet Use!  kathy
>>
>>
>>
>>Congress will be voting in less than two weeks.
>>CNN stated that the Government would in two weeks time decide
>>to allow or not allow a charge to your phone bill equal to a
>>Long Distance call EACH time you access the Internet.
>>
>>The address is http://www.house.gov/writerep/
>>
>>If you choose, visit the address above and fill out the
>>necessary form!
>>
>>If EACH one of us, forward this message on to others in a
>>hurry, we may be able to prevent this from happening!




From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sat Jan 23 00:26:38 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:26:38 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32630.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Do you know of any ready made gizmo's to do that? What do they trigger off of,
the sensor or the ECU? If there isn't any such animal currently what would be
the recommended trigger for a homemade job, sensor or ECU?

Charles Brooks



Bruce Plecan wrote:

>
>   If ya feel the need for running a KS, I'd strongly recommend a visual/
> audible alert when it's triggered.
> Bruce



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sat Jan 23 00:33:52 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:33:52 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32631.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I was wondering why you wanted to re-direct the spray pattern. If your going to
convert a manifold, how about milling the proper angle into the manifold the
first time?  If it looks like there will not be enough material to hold the
bosses you can add material (by welding) to the area where you need the
injector bosses located.

Charles Brooks



Walter Sherwin wrote:

> Gary, would it be possible to redirect the flow even slightly with a
> deflector, without creating globs of fuel?  What about a deflector with
> holes and patterns and such?  I am just wondering aloud because it would be
> nice to find a way to deflect fuel into a more favourable trajectory when
> "EFI'ing" non EFI manifolds.  Anybody thoughts?



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 23 00:45:00 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:45:00 -0500
Subject: Another Non EFI Question
Message-ID: <mailman.32632.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>+ means move it toward front of car. IMHO .001"  won't make that much
>difference, but to do it right  you should check the pattern with gear
>marking compound. Backlash may have to be adjusted, just remove thickness
>from one side and add the same amount to the other side. Shoot for
>.004-.008 backlash with pattern centered on drive side of tooth.

Pattern not centered on drive AND coast side of teeth is what indicates
incorrect pinion depth---

Regards, Greg
>
>On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:43:22 -0800 "Peter Fenske" <pfenske at bcit.bc.ca>
>writes:
>>
>>
>>Hi All
>>
>>Hate to ask you another non efi guestion but
>>on a dana 44 if when replacing a gear set
>>The replacement pinion is stamped +0
>>which is replacing a pinion stamped +1
>>
>>This means I need a shim which is +1 thou
>>bigger..
>>
>>Question is the pattern gonna be off significantly
>>if I use the old shim.
>>
>>TIA:peter
>>
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 23 00:49:03 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:49:03 -0500
Subject: water injection But preturbo
Message-ID: <mailman.32633.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>> in the exhaust?? correct me if I'm wrong but if you injected water ( not
>> much) it turns into steam ( around 700X volume increase { foggy where i
>
>Bob the computer guy suggested it, I tried it, and under
>certain circumstances, you get more boost.  If, and only if
>the headers are extremely hot, as in lots of high power
>usage at high RPMs.  Once the headers cool off (i.e. idling
>for a while), there seems to be no effect, and you crack
>your headers.  Did this successfully.  Stainless headers
>didn't crack though, once we upgraded.
>
>
>--
>Frederic Breitwieser
>Bridgeport, CT 06606
>
>http://www.xephic.dynip.com
>1993 Superchaged Lincoln Continental
>1989 500cid Turbocharged HWMMV
>1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab
>2000 Buick GTP (twin turbo V6)

Water into the exhaust has the same effect as making the A/R ratio
smaller--It will make a turbo spool faster if the nozzle is big for top
end--but you DO NOT want the water there when you get up to where the
nozzle is correct size. It will only serve to increase the backpressure on
the motor, just as a tighter nozzle would----

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 23 00:52:30 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:52:30 -0500
Subject: water injection But preturbo
Message-ID: <mailman.32634.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Don't know if they still do but B-52's used to inject water into their
>exhaust on take-off for a much needed boost when fully laden.

Well, yeah, but really, it was injected right about at the combustor--so
they could burn more fuel without melting stuff, and make LOTS more power,
but not too efficiently. Early 707's did the same thing. I think that
turbo-fan engines (which are essentially a turbo-prop with a ducted
propellor) superceded the need to do this.

Regards, Greg
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:	Pat Ford [SMTP:pford at qnx.com]
>> Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 4:12 PM
>> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> Subject:	water injection But preturbo
>>
>> Hi There
>>  Sorry to dig up the same old thread but has anyone tried water injection
>> in the exhaust?? correct me if I'm wrong but if you injected water ( not
>> much) it turns into steam ( around 700X volume increase { foggy where i
>> got that number}) and the turbo should spool up pretty fast. I don't see
>> this as a full time thing but as a way to fight turbo lag
>>
>> btw I've learned alot lurking here
>>
>> Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
>> QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
>> (613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews
>> (613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 23 01:29:17 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:29:17 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32635.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance

If your running a ESC Module, they have a diagram for a DIY one at the GN
Ttype
site,  or just us a 339/any comparator to the input of the KS to the ecm,
have
it trigger a 555 as a monstable for a sec., and use it's output for a LED,
relay
etc..   Some of the GN Ttype vendors (ie ATR, I think) have an animal for
sale.
   If your car doesn't have a ks then buy a matching ESC Module, and
matching knock sensor (well for gm's anyway).  and wire it up
I think the bias voltage from the esc to the ecm is 7v.  Set up the
comparator for 6, and then just a "filtered""real" knock will trigger it.
  I have played mix, and match with them, and while there is some
difference for those having trouble reading plugs, any thing is better
than nothing.  Like I'm currently using a v-8 ks with a 231 ESC Module
and for my combination it's perfect.
Bruce


>Do you know of any ready made gizmo's to do that? What do they trigger off
of,
>the sensor or the ECU? If there isn't any such animal currently what would
be
>the recommended trigger for a homemade job, sensor or ECU?
>Charles Brooks




From ord at aei.ca  Sat Jan 23 02:32:15 1999
From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:32:15 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32636.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The manifold is already efi, but it works in a poor way:  each cylinder has
two intake valves, but the injector is in the runner to one valve only.
That one is fine, it is aimed perfectly at the back of the valve.  The other
port gets no fuel at all, so the walls, valve stem and the back of the valve
get thickly coated with carbon and burned oil after a time.

Because of the arangement of the manifold and head, I can't just insert a
second injector aimed at the other valve without machining the heads (the
runner continues for another 4-5 inches in the head).

Ord Millar

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: dual spray injectors


>I was wondering why you wanted to re-direct the spray pattern. If your
going to
>convert a manifold, how about milling the proper angle into the manifold
the
>first time?  If it looks like there will not be enough material to hold the
>bosses you can add material (by welding) to the area where you need the
>injector bosses located.
>
>Charles Brooks
>
>




From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sat Jan 23 02:33:09 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:33:09 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32637.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks, I'll check out the Ttype sight tonight.

Charles

Bruce Plecan wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 7:36 PM
> Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
>
> If your running a ESC Module, they have a diagram for a DIY one at the GN
> Ttype
> site,  or just us a 339/any comparator to the input of the KS to the ecm,
> have
> it trigger a 555 as a monstable for a sec., and use it's output for a LED,
> relay
> etc..   Some of the GN Ttype vendors (ie ATR, I think) have an animal for
> sale.
>    If your car doesn't have a ks then buy a matching ESC Module, and
> matching knock sensor (well for gm's anyway).  and wire it up
> I think the bias voltage from the esc to the ecm is 7v.  Set up the
> comparator for 6, and then just a "filtered""real" knock will trigger it.
>   I have played mix, and match with them, and while there is some
> difference for those having trouble reading plugs, any thing is better
> than nothing.  Like I'm currently using a v-8 ks with a 231 ESC Module
> and for my combination it's perfect.
> Bruce
>
> >Do you know of any ready made gizmo's to do that? What do they trigger off
> of,
> >the sensor or the ECU? If there isn't any such animal currently what would
> be
> >the recommended trigger for a homemade job, sensor or ECU?
> >Charles Brooks



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan 23 03:25:11 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:25:11 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32638.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence Wood wrote:
> 
>   Please give more information on "motor-vac".  How does it work?  How much does it cost?  Where do you get it?
> 
> Thanks,
> Clarence
> 
> At 06:40 PM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
> (snip)>I don't know if it acts as a sponge or what, but the presence / absence
> >of carbon on the intake valves makes a SIGNIFICANT difference in
> >driveability. The 3.0 litre V6 in my aerostar had a BAD stumble off idle
> >when partly warmed up - to the point that on a cold day if I fired it up
> >and drove to the corner down the street it would invariably stall when
> >pulling away unless I floored it. Tried everything. Finally used a
> >"motor-vac" on it, which does an excellent job of decarbonizing - and
> >it's been perfect since.
> >
> >
It is a fuel system / engine cleaner unit that connects to the car and
draws a calibrated amount of fuel into  itself. You add a very
concentrated cleaner to the gas, which is then tun through the system,
from the filter forward under pressure. You run the engine through a
cycle with this beasy connected and the intake valves, cyls, lines, and
injectors are clean enough you couls eat off of them. I was a doubter
myself 'till my brother called me and said they needed a guinea pig for
the distributor to demonstrate the gizmo on - and knowing my AeroScare
was misbehaving, and he could not fix it.
Never know it was the same truck.
The unit is expensive - several thousand if I remember correctly, and my
brother has not bought one - yet. Apparently they are also "rotunda"
branded and sold to Ford dealers - and sold under several other brand
names. About the same size as an antifreeze recycler or bar fridge.


From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca  Sat Jan 23 03:30:38 1999
From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:30:38 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32639.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



No problem same connector..
They look a bit different though if stealth is your game(carb??)

:peter





Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net> on 01/22/99 04:25:22 PM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To:      diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu                   
                                                              
 cc:      (bcc: Peter Fenske/BCIT)                            
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: Re: injector impedance                              
                                                              








That's great to know, did you have any problems with the electrical
connector?

Charles

Peter Fenske wrote:

> Hi Charles
>
> Yep am running Ford Motorsport 30LB injectors on
> my vette. Work great. Actually they are bosch injectors.
> Only small descrepancy is that they measure bout 14 ohms
> versus gm multecs measure 16 ohms.. No muss






From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jan 23 03:37:33 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:37:33 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32640.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Check out Barry Gant's EFI system.  It uses venturi
> Bruce
> 
The drag racers like this because carburetors more responsive and 
faster off line and part throttle and fuel injection better at WOT?
At least that what Billy Mitchell and his injectorator say.
Also seemed to verify this when converting 12cyl. 12 barrel webers
to dual CIS, what a crime.  The CIS system was slush, the webbers
sounded like the engine just exploded.
In last days of carbs, FI always looked better at WOT but carb.
was better at part throttle and responded better.
Anything that helps atomization helps power, on dyno I was working
with a 1 barrel, so most benefits seemed to be in fuel distribution.
Best results was drilling holes in throttle shaft as venturi jets.
As stated below all in the atmoization.  
alex  
> >Doesn't a venturi atomize fuel very well in any case?  As stupid as it
> >sounds, why not make an intake that has a venturi for each port and
> >feed the fuel to the venturi at each intake port.  You'd have a lota
> >throttle shafts and such, but it would atomize the fuel better, no? 
> >What mechanical devices atomize fuel well?  How well does a mechanical
> >injection atomize fuel?  
> >
> >Andy
> >
> >p.s. what does IR stand for?  
> >
Independent runner.


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jan 23 03:37:57 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:37:57 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32641.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> The sometimes less than accurate GM classes I've attended teach that
> injection should occur when the intake valve is closed,and be
> completed immediately prior to intake valve opening.  This would make
> use of the heat in the head of the valve help keep fuel from pooling.
> This was mentioned earlier.  This might be GM's approach to sefi. 
> According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
> accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
> reduces performance.  I've seen the effects. It's very similar to
> losing the accelerator pump on a carb'ed engine, and the exhaust is
> excessively rich.  My thought was the carbon is insulating the valve,
> preventing vaporization.
> Shannen
> 
I always thought carbon caused hot spots, this would help 
vaporization.  You would be loosing the orginal design shape
of valve causing different cylinder entry conditions and also
reduction in flow, thou velocity would increase helping atomization.
alex


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jan 23 03:38:14 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:38:14 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32642.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> > Tom
> > Your Edelbrock ProFlo is typical on several other EFI system's
> > actualy the tests I have run show little on no differace between L/R and
> > other systems.
> > In fact all EFI are on almost 100% at or near WOT.
> > Ward
> 
> There is an ongoing discussion about the need to inject all (or most) of the
> fuel while the intake valve is open, probably starting before the valve
> opens and ending before it is closed. It would require large P&H injectors
> and lotta of pressure.
> 
> Any ideas or comments (or experiences).     Regards  Tom
> 
The new  Chrysler engine does this with injectors in head called wide
angle spray. web page posted in recent archive.
I have a old SAE book with some experiments on injection related to
valve timing, conclusion was to inject when valve closed.
alex 


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan 23 03:39:02 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:39:02 -0500
Subject: Av gas(was: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths)
Message-ID: <mailman.32643.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> >In Canada it's illegal to put anywhere but into a plane -
> 
> No offense, but doncha love creeping socialism--or is it socialist
> creeps??? :-)
> 
> can't even buy
> >it to use in a race-car.
> 
> Regards, Greg
Actually our air quality is bad enough already - a few days this summer
in Kitchener Waterloo area made LA look like clear skies. Anything that
helps me breath has to be considered as (possibly) worth while!


From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan 23 03:48:52 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:48:52 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32644.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ord,
it appears that Toyota's multivalve EFI engines eployed this injector design.
What sort of flow rates are you looking for? Sat. or P&H?
MIke V.

>  Does anyone know where I can find some injectors that spray two cones?
>  Alternately, how about an injector where the spray is at a small (15
degree) 
> angle relative to the body?
>  Or, in a perfect world, one that does both?  (Two cones, at an angle).
>  Worst case, I can try to work with some sort of deflector.
>  
>  I am working on a project to deliver fuel at both valves on a multi-valve 
> head.
  


From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan 23 04:00:59 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:00:59 -0500
Subject: Ford injector s
Message-ID: <mailman.32645.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Not sure if this applies, but a "set" on the GN/T-Type site is Qty6..
Don't know if you need 8.  Not sure of the app.  Where was the page?
MikeV

> I just found the page, I think I'm going to pick up a set of 30Lb injectors.
>  At $208, it's less than half the price of the GM injectors!!


From Tedscj at aol.com  Sat Jan 23 04:05:12 1999
From: Tedscj at aol.com (Tedscj at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:05:12 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32646.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/22/99 10:40:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
xxalexx at ix.netcom.com writes:

<< The drag racers like this because carburetors more responsive and 
 faster off line and part throttle and fuel injection better at WOT?
 At least that what Billy Mitchell and his injectorator say.
 Also seemed to verify this when converting 12cyl. 12 barrel webers
 to dual CIS, what a crime.  The CIS system was slush, the webbers
 sounded like the engine just exploded.
 In last days of carbs, FI always looked better at WOT but carb.
 was better at part throttle and responded better.
 Anything that helps atomization helps power, on dyno I was working
 with a 1 barrel, so most benefits seemed to be in fuel distribution.
 Best results was drilling holes in throttle shaft as venturi jets.
 As stated below all in the atmoization.  
 alex   >>
I just have to throw my .02 in.  I went from dual SUs to FI and it has never
"felt" as fast since. When I would jab at the gas from a stoplight, I used to
get rubber from a standstill very easily, and then a chirp in second (with an
auto. tranny). That never happens anymore.  The responsiveness just doesn't
"feel" the same anymore.
  BUT, my actual 0-60 times actually remained the same and mileage has gone
WAY up.
for what it's worth,
Ted


From chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  Sat Jan 23 04:23:57 1999
From: chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jake Sternberg)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:23:57 -0500
Subject: '7730 ECM 4 sale
Message-ID: <mailman.32647.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I'm selling a '7730 ECM from a cavalier or something.
You can have the cavalier Cal-Pak or a socketed Cal-Pak.
Comes with all three connectors with about 3" of wire
coming from them.

Bought it through this list for a project that has died.
Never hooked up (by me).  Came from a very fresh wreck.

Cheap.  Email me.

-jake   chickens at mail.utexas.edu



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sat Jan 23 04:29:27 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:29:27 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32648.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

HaHa! Nothing stealth about a TPI 406 where a carbed 305 used to be :)

Seriously as long as they don't spell "F O R D" when they sit next to
each other on the manifold I don't mind  ;)

Charles

Peter Fenske wrote:

> No problem same connector..
> They look a bit different though if stealth is your game(carb??)



From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jan 23 04:36:35 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:36:35 -0500
Subject: Carbon pistons?.
Message-ID: <mailman.32649.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Anyone have any idea what a set of these things would cost?
> :P
> Ben
> 
> On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> > If anyone wants to buy me a couple sets, I'll report the results,
> > Cheers
> > Bruce        Doc has already got the ceramic glazing paint
> >                   chart out.   He thinks carbon fiber, ceramics
> >                   composites are all the same thing (all the c's
> >                   confuse the little guy)
> > 
> > >http://nctn.hq.nasa.gov/innovation/Innovation54/complic.htm.
> > 
I was working on NASA and DARPA star war projects in late
eighties.  Main research was net shape high temperature materials
Would grow SiC,  BN, diamonds and diamond like carbon and
carbon metalics.  The purpose was to grow these materials on desired 
shape graphite mandrels for spaced base weapons to avoid machining.
Feasible to grow a piston, or use these materials as coatings.
A pure SiC piston would take 3-4 weeks of growth using H2 gas
and methyltrichloridesilane at 20 Torr and 1400 C.
For more info. check Morton International Advanced Materials
Dr. Raymond Taylor or Hemmit Desai
alex  


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sat Jan 23 05:01:22 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:01:22 -0500
Subject: Ford injector s
Message-ID: <mailman.32650.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Sorry by "Page" I meant the page in the Summit catalog. The $208 price is for a
set of 8.

Charles

ECMnut at aol.com wrote:

> Not sure if this applies, but a "set" on the GN/T-Type site is Qty6..
> Don't know if you need 8.  Not sure of the app.  Where was the page?
> MikeV
>
> > I just found the page, I think I'm going to pick up a set of 30Lb injectors.
> >  At $208, it's less than half the price of the GM injectors!!



From trinity at golden.net  Sat Jan 23 05:10:58 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 00:10:58 -0500
Subject: Those Holden Bins I uploaded are N.G.
Message-ID: <mailman.32651.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>Oops, seems I may have stuffed up with some previously uploaded Bins, I
>thought they were all 27256, seems the auto trans ones must be 27512's.
>
>This would include - BLCB, BWFU, and BWCS9976. Sorry if this has caused
>any drama's for anybody, I'm pretty sure the Manual Bins are O.K as the
>checksum works.
>
>I'll have to re-read the others I uploaded, in the mean time the
>BLCC5074.BIN Auto Bin I recently uploaded should be 100% O.K.
>
>Check out from $4660 onwards, plain text!!!.
>

That is indeed fascinating. It's interesting...I ran the bin though my HC11
disassembler and it actually produces meaningful code. The register block
seems to start at $3000 and at least a few registers appear true-blue HC11.

It's neat: the address space of the PROM straddles the register space and
there's program code sitting at $1000 and at $5000,  and there's some RAM
mapped in there too (e.g. $1800). There's some interesting address decoding
going on here.

BTW, is there a year and engine VIN# for this PROM? 3.8LV6? I figure late
model...maybe 1995?


--
 Mike



From ord at aei.ca  Sat Jan 23 14:19:28 1999
From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:19:28 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32652.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Mike,

Right now, I have 24 pound/hour injectors (DENSO for Ford), in the 14 Ohm
range.  I wouldn't want to go much over 30# at this time.  Fitting the
existing fuel rails would be a big plus.  These are the ones with O-Ring
seals at each end, ~14mm diameter, 84mm length (seal to seal).

Because the existing injector is so well places, I am starting to think that
I might be better off to add a second set.  Does anyone know if there are
smallish ones, for about 12-15 pounds/hour that Ford uses anywhere?

BTW:  Can someone give me a conversion factor to get from cm3/minute to
lbs/hour?

Thanks,
Ord

-----Original Message-----
From: ECMnut at aol.com <ECMnut at aol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: dual spray injectors


>Ord,
>it appears that Toyota's multivalve EFI engines eployed this injector
design.
>What sort of flow rates are you looking for? Sat. or P&H?
>MIke V.
>




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 23 14:36:43 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:36:43 -0500
Subject: Fw: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32653.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I got an off list mail, that I think warrants being commented on list.
Depending on you level of expertise you will find this interesting or
boring, and the "target" reader is the new guy.

I will acknowledge that a small light car is somewhat different
then a large american v-8 sedan.
  But, not since for the obvious reasons.  Look at the bore to
stroke, and rod lenght to stroke ratios of say in my example of
the X1/9.  They are great.  Look at how much valve diameter they
stuff into the cylinder head.  With roughly the same cam specs
my X was at >100/Liter, and my SBC is 320ish for 355, 10+%
better,  and by current standards ancient.  With these basic differences in
design, really show what a marvel EFI, since
without getting your hands wet, you can tune as necessary,
between these extremes, without having to spend years dinking
with Air Correction Jets, and emulsion tube volumes/wells..

>
>Ya, but this is a very light car where the load might not have been as
>high, and the engine reved to such a high RPM that loads were again not
>so high.

If you look at when a rod most often fails.  For those that don't know
it's after the intake valve is opening, and as the rod is moving away
from TDC.  It's in tension at this time, and while the crank is pulling it
down, the intake air tract volume is acting against this movement.
So as the rpm build these loads get much larger.   This pulling the
rod apart aspect IMHO is what makes S/T charged engines so
great.  Bearing maintance increases due to the power output, but
breaking rods min, and you don't have to spin the begibbers out
of it to make power.

Your example of nailling it in 3rd argues against this however.
>If we were talking about a large american car with a V8 couldn't the
>situation have been different.

Every engine is different.  Even say two twin engines.  If you noticed in
my last post I specifically mention using what I have, and then adjusting as
nessecary.  If I don't have a vacuum advance I'm not going to reengineer the
dissy to add it.  I will play for hours with dissy
spring weights, to get the right curve for what I have, and all the while
work with the carb to get the fuel right.
   What is kind of funny is on some of the tuner chips they just think
in terms of centri/vac curves rather than what you can do with the numbers
(just something to chew on)..

  Tuning/timing, is all about heat.  Making as much as you can, OR
NEED.
  At WOT you want to make lots of heat but not exceed the termal limits of
the engines components.
  During cruise you want to make just enough heat/energy to move
the car, with the min amount of fuel.

Now with the above said, you can readily see that the the combustion
chamber dictates what it's going to need to get the above done.
Bruce



From trinity at golden.net  Sat Jan 23 15:18:15 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:18:15 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32654.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I know this is a stupid question and it's not directly EFI-related, but can
someone educate me on the legalities, specifically, copyrights and
software/firmware,  associated with reading OEM PROMs, "reverse engineering"
them and even on "publishing" findings on, say, one's web page? Does reading
the PROM not constitute making a copy of the firmware? Is this automatically
"illegal"? 

I guess I make backup copies of some Microsquash software I buy and that's
legal so reading the binary out of the PROM could be seen as making a backup
copy. But what about publishing, in the public domain, information about
those PROM contents or even making the contents available for download by
others? Many have downloadable binaries on their sites and the diy_efi ftp
site is chalk full of them.

Suppose I wanted to publish on my web page a list of modifications I had
done to the PROM in my Probe GT (i.e. addresses, what the bytes were and
what they are now and why)...is this "bad"?

Suppose I wanted to show people how some logic worked so I published a few
lines of code from the output of my disassembler on my page...is this bad?

Suppose I wanted to show people tables...say, before (stock) and after
(modified)...is this bad?

I've noticed some people put "disclaimers" in their posts when mailing the
list with info like "This is for educational purposes only" or "This work
was accomplished without the aid of any <insert manufacturer name>
proprietary material" or some such. Are these really needed and if so, why?
How does their presence absolve the poster of any legal issues? Has anyone
ever received scary letters from GM or Ford or whatever?

I've long suspected that companies like G-Force, Dinan, Hypertech, ADS, JET
et al cannot possibly all have agreements with all of the car companies
whose PROMs they tweak...or do they? Somehow it seems unlikely that GM or
BMW or Volkswagen would disclose to them technical information about their
systems and what to modify. But how else would, say, Hypertech come out with
the Hypertech programmer for LT1s without such insider information so soon
after the new cars ('Vette, Impala SS etc) were released?

I know in the big scheme of things that this is really pretty small potatoes
but it has sorta bugged me for a bit. 

Any opinions? Any knowledge?

--
 Mike



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 23 15:47:11 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:47:11 -0500
Subject: Vapor vs Atomization, and the winner is
Message-ID: <mailman.32655.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'm not to sure I beleive all of what's been said about this lately.

A carb., while offering better atomization for metering might be good,
but alot of what gets metered winds up on the floor of the manifold
where it lays long enough to pick up some heat, and thus is vapor.
The exception being side drafts (and then mostly at higher rpms).

Also, On some manifolds, I've noticed clean trails of where the fuel
formed runners, or little streams of fuel going to the runners.

At low engine speeds, the fuel from a TPI might have time to just
fall on the floor of the runner, and trickle on down to the intake valve.
But, as rpm increase the air speed will help some in keeping it
atomized.

I wish someone had the time/energy to fire a couple injectors
horizontially, and say 45d off vertical, and see what the patterns
are really like, at like normally installed distance from injector to
opposite port wall, and just one shoot, say 1.7msec long like what
an idle pulse would be.  That might answer some questions.

If Harry Ricardo's statements about how fuel burns are true then the
vap/atm issue would just boil down to a couple degrees difference in
timing in actual practice.

One universal truth (for high performance)that I've noticed, and that works
for me, is keeping the intake manifold as cool as possible.
Trouble is a dual plane the distribution goes out the window.

One thing I'd like to do, is eliminate the Water cross over in the front
of the intake, and use a Y with remote thermostat housing (SBC),
and come up with a good recirculating themostat.

Then the comment about it not mattering since the injector wasn't
pointed directly at the valve head anyway.  Well, the inertia of the
fuel is going to carry the fuel till it hits something anyway since the
distances are so short, and the gravity will help it get to the head of
the valve anyway (at idle, low rpm).

For high peforkmance,  vapor isn't too good, since it would be more
prone to compression ignition, detonation.  Also, with these tendencies,
would be more touchy about fuel.

Nomex CSH, with chin strap, on
Bruce



From mpitts at emi.net  Sat Jan 23 16:09:34 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:09:34 -0500
Subject: Av gas
Message-ID: <mailman.32656.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Air quality isn't the concern.  AvGas probably burns cleaner! 
The gov's concern is that AvGas doesn't carry the same road 
tax as motor vehicle fuel.  (Because planes don't use roads) 


-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence L.Snyder <clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: Av gas(was: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths)


>Greg Hermann wrote:
>> 
>> >In Canada it's illegal to put anywhere but into a plane -
>> 
>> No offense, but doncha love creeping socialism--or is it socialist
>> creeps??? :-)
>> 
>> can't even buy
>> >it to use in a race-car.
>> 
>> Regards, Greg
>Actually our air quality is bad enough already - a few days this summer
>in Kitchener Waterloo area made LA look like clear skies. Anything that
>helps me breath has to be considered as (possibly) worth while!
>




From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sat Jan 23 16:30:12 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:30:12 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32657.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I think it goes along the lines of taking an existing patented design and making
an "improvement" on it. Which is NOT a violation of the law, and in fact is done
by large corporations ALL THE TIME. I have a former patent attorney for a
coworker, I'll ask him what he thinks on Monday.

Charles Brooks



Mike wrote:

> I know this is a stupid question and it's not directly EFI-related, but can
> someone educate me on the legalities, specifically, copyrights and
> software/firmware,  associated with reading OEM PROMs, "reverse engineering"
> them and even on "publishing" findings on, say, one's web page? Does reading
> the PROM not constitute making a copy of the firmware? Is this automatically
> "illegal"?



From wsherwin at idirect.com  Sat Jan 23 17:12:16 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:12:16 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32658.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Depending upon the manifold, it is sometimes difficult or even impossible to
"lay the injector over" to get a good shot along the axis of the head port.
As a consequence, much of the fuel winds up hitting the opposite port/runner
wall.  I've always thought that this is a less than optimal situation, even
though it does work!!

What sticks in my mind though, is if it truly is an inconsequential "thing"
then why have so many OEM's taken so much time and effort to align the spray
axis with the port axis, in most modern EFI engines?   A deflector would
help to replicate this feature, but as Gary pointed out it may also
globularize the fuel and cause other problems.  Oh well :(

Walt.


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: dual spray injectors


>I was wondering why you wanted to re-direct the spray pattern. If your
going to
>convert a manifold, how about milling the proper angle into the manifold
the
>first time?  If it looks like there will not be enough material to hold the
>bosses you can add material (by welding) to the area where you need the
>injector bosses located.
>
>Charles Brooks
>
>
>
>Walter Sherwin wrote:
>
>> Gary, would it be possible to redirect the flow even slightly with a
>> deflector, without creating globs of fuel?  What about a deflector with
>> holes and patterns and such?  I am just wondering aloud because it would
be
>> nice to find a way to deflect fuel into a more favourable trajectory when
>> "EFI'ing" non EFI manifolds.  Anybody thoughts?
>



From chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  Sat Jan 23 17:14:37 1999
From: chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jake Sternberg)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:14:37 -0500
Subject: 1999 truck PCM's ROM
Message-ID: <mailman.32659.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I have a PCM (powertrain Control Module a.k.a. ECM)
from a 1999 GMC sierra pickup truck.  The connectors
are almost bigger than the circuitboard itself.

Well, anyway.. i have it open, and here's the info
from the flash ROM chip:

Intel
16236995
AB28F400BX
E 5012
U7400142Q
Flash

44 pins

It's a surface mount device, but i plan to solder
little wires to it and to a connector so i can
plug it into my ROM burner (while it's in vivo).

Does anyone have any suggestions or information
as to whether this could be a bad idea or has
anyone done it?  I asked GM for a PCM programmer
kit but surprisingly, they refused to give me one.

Thanks!

-jake  chickens at mail.utexas.edu



From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Sat Jan 23 17:32:36 1999
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:32:36 -0500
Subject: Ford IAC
Message-ID: <mailman.32660.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Looking for specific information on the IAC used by Ford on its TBI pickups.
We have one in hand and are moving on a project using it.

It appears to be a solenoid operated ( like an injector ) device that opens
closes a shuttle valve.  The amount of time open appears to control the air
flow.

Needed is particulars so we can build a controller.  Namely - coil impedance,
frequency range - pulses per second, and pulse widths.   Any information on
flow rates would also be appreciated.

Its part of the Deviant Dark Sides plans to resurrect old technology, claim it
as our own and become list heroes.

On a similar note,  need an exhaust manifold for Christine - did any year big
car 460 have an oxygen bung built in - hate to weld on in myself.

1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"

Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From GoAPE at tiac.net  Sat Jan 23 17:45:17 1999
From: GoAPE at tiac.net (Auburn Performance Equipment)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:45:17 -0500
Subject: SpeedBrain
Message-ID: <mailman.32661.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Gentlemen,

I wanted to let you all know, for those of you that do not, that we 
have a released a high performance replacement for the Ford EEC-
IV.  Current models replace the stock computer systems for 89-95 
5.0 Mustangs.

It is a high performance computer system that, plugs right in, is fully 
tunable, datalogs, and will rev to 10k.

Feel free to learn more at our website at;
http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/sb.htm

Regards, 

Matt


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AUBURN PERFORMANCE EQUIPMENT 
Home of the world's fastest 4.6 Cobra!
1998 Winner 160mph class Big Bend Classic roadrace, Ft Stockton, TX
1998 Winner 160mph class Gamblers Run roadrace, Elko, NV
1998 Winner 165mph class Silverstate Classic roadrace, Ely, NV

We just don't sell and install parts, we make them perform.

ORDER LINE   1-508-752-7683  
24 hr FAX LINE (508)752-5269   TECH LINE (508)797-9728
WEBSITE & ON-LINE CATALOG: http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From claybu at sr.hp.com  Sat Jan 23 18:07:01 1999
From: claybu at sr.hp.com (Clay Buccellato)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:07:01 -0500
Subject: Fel-Pro EFI?
Message-ID: <mailman.32662.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> From: Mike Pitts <mpitts at netspeak.com>
> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:47:20 -0500
> Subject: EFI on a big block
> 
> It's been done.  Jim Haas in Miami has a fuel injected 
> and stroked Buick GS 455.  The last time I saw it, he 
> was using a DFI.  I wouldn't be surprised if he's using 
> a FelPro now.

Do you have any experience with the Fel-Pro unit? What are its strengths
and weaknesses? Is it re-programmable? (Not the A/F maps, but the CPU
code) Flash memory?

I'm considering one, as it seems to be one of the most capable units
available.
-- 
                                      -Clay


From alaint at cgocable.ca  Sat Jan 23 18:19:27 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:19:27 -0500
Subject: ryu@.es
Message-ID: <mailman.32663.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

is there someone here having a similar email address as this one:

ryu at .es

it's the second time i receive such BADLY addressed email and my mail
download app can't grok it so it stay on the server,i'm quite a bit tired
to ask the clueless tech support of cogeco cable to delete it from their
server

Alain Toussaint
Drummondville
Quebec,Canada
alaint at cgocable.ca




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 23 18:35:14 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:35:14 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32664.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Mike,
>
>Right now, I have 24 pound/hour injectors (DENSO for Ford), in the 14 Ohm
>range.  I wouldn't want to go much over 30# at this time.  Fitting the
>existing fuel rails would be a big plus.  These are the ones with O-Ring
>seals at each end, ~14mm diameter, 84mm length (seal to seal).
>
>Because the existing injector is so well places, I am starting to think that
>I might be better off to add a second set.  Does anyone know if there are
>smallish ones, for about 12-15 pounds/hour that Ford uses anywhere?
>
>BTW:  Can someone give me a conversion factor to get from cm3/minute to
>lbs/hour?
>
>Thanks,
>Ord
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ECMnut at aol.com <ECMnut at aol.com>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 11:36 PM
>Subject: Re: dual spray injectors
>
>
>>Ord,
>>it appears that Toyota's multivalve EFI engines eployed this injector
>design.
>>What sort of flow rates are you looking for? Sat. or P&H?
>>MIke V.
>>
Divide by 10 is pretty close.

Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 23 18:41:23 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:41:23 -0500
Subject: Vapor vs Atomization, and the winner is
Message-ID: <mailman.32665.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I'm not to sure I beleive all of what's been said about this lately.
>
>A carb., while offering better atomization for metering might be good,
>but alot of what gets metered winds up on the floor of the manifold
>where it lays long enough to pick up some heat, and thus is vapor.
>The exception being side drafts (and then mostly at higher rpms).
>
No disagreement--I was basing what I said on things like Alfas and Jags and
Porsches with VERY straight ports, and one throat per cylinder (conversion
onna Jag). This is where you can see the insanely lower WOT bsfc numbers.

Greg




From spoonie at deltanet.com  Sat Jan 23 18:53:11 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:53:11 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32666.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Magneti Marelli make dual pattern pico inject for use with two intake valve
system,
Ward

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Ord Millar
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 7:06 AM
To: Diy_Efi (E-mail)
Subject: dual spray injectors


Hi - I am just returning to the list; I was previously a lurker here but
other interests got in the way for a while.

Does anyone know where I can find some injectors that spray two cones?
Alternately, how about an injector where the spray is at a small (15 degree)
angle relative to the body?
Or, in a perfect world, one that does both?  (Two cones, at an angle).
Worst case, I can try to work with some sort of deflector.

I am working on a project to deliver fuel at both valves on a multi-valve
head.

Thanks,

Ord



From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Sat Jan 23 19:12:05 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:12:05 -0500
Subject: Av gas(was: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths)
Message-ID: <mailman.32667.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 99-01-22 22:41:09 EST, you write:

<< > can't even buy
 > >it to use in a race-car.
 >  >>
We used to run it in flattrack bikes, Triumph Hemi with 12.5 to on Hepolite
pistons. ran good, didn't ping, but tried it in a two stroke and lost most of
the power, most of the paint off the expansion chamber and threw flames out
the end of the pipe. Outboard racers told me they had experienced it to.A
frind of mine held several records and ran the lowest octane that didn't hurt
the pistons. Avgas is too slow burning for anything we do. Also remember that
Av motors are slow rpm, so slow buring fuel is used to push the entire
stroke.Unless the motor has a lot of compression, and pings, don't bother.
Besides, the 115/145 Avgas is long gone as I recall.
Fred


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Sat Jan 23 19:41:19 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:41:19 -0500
Subject: 1999 truck PCM's ROM
Message-ID: <mailman.32668.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

What is the CPU???   TIA  Tom

Jake Sternberg wrote:

> I have a PCM (powertrain Control Module a.k.a. ECM)
> from a 1999 GMC sierra pickup truck.  The connectors
> are almost bigger than the circuitboard itself.
>





From jweir at worldnet.att.net  Sat Jan 23 19:54:13 1999
From: jweir at worldnet.att.net (Jason Weir)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:54:13 -0500
Subject: Throttle Body sources
Message-ID: <mailman.32669.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I am looking for a source for a GM throttle body used on the 2.5 4 cyl
for my new project, actually its the same one used in the Fieros,
Ludis???.  I don't want to get a junkyard unit and wondering if anyone
has a source cheaper than the dealer, a reman would be fine... That was
a fairly common motor and it would seem that someone is selling those
things rebuilt... 

Did GM use any other single injector TBIs on any motors smaller than the
2.5, that still had the standard TPS, and IAC in it...

thanks Jason


From jweir at worldnet.att.net  Sat Jan 23 20:10:40 1999
From: jweir at worldnet.att.net (Jason Weir)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:10:40 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
Message-ID: <mailman.32670.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ok adding to my previous post, I have found that GM used a 300 CFM TBI
unit from 83 to 86 on their 1.8L engines, this unit will better suit my
purposes, now my project will be making the 7747 run this TBI unit, can
anyone tell me if I have the right connectors, the TPS and IAC will work
correctly.. Below is a link to Holley's OEM replacement version, which
has different connectors than then newer TBI's, but although the
connectors are different does that mean the the 7747 can't/won't work
with the IAC and TPS????

Jason
in over my head again, isn't this fun


From jweir at worldnet.att.net  Sat Jan 23 20:11:26 1999
From: jweir at worldnet.att.net (Jason Weir)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:11:26 -0500
Subject: oops
Message-ID: <mailman.32671.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I forgot to add the link in so here it is

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/FuelInj/OERTBI/f500-3.html


Jason


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 23 20:14:44 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:14:44 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32672.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ord Millar <ord at aei.ca>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: dual spray injectors

DIY Home Page, click on oem applications, click on ford, click on fuel
injectors
Bruce


snip
>I might be better off to add a second set.  Does anyone know if there are
>smallish ones, for about 12-15 pounds/hour that Ford uses anywhere?
>
>BTW:  Can someone give me a conversion factor to get from cm3/minute to
>lbs/hour?
>
>Thanks,
>Ord
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ECMnut at aol.com <ECMnut at aol.com>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 11:36 PM
>Subject: Re: dual spray injectors
>
>
>>Ord,
>>it appears that Toyota's multivalve EFI engines eployed this injector
>design.
>>What sort of flow rates are you looking for? Sat. or P&H?
>>MIke V.
>>
>
>



From jweir at worldnet.att.net  Sat Jan 23 20:16:16 1999
From: jweir at worldnet.att.net (Jason Weir)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:16:16 -0500
Subject: GM VIN CODES
Message-ID: <mailman.32673.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

here is a cool link to a great resource

http://www.ntcnet.com/~dragon64/gmcodes.html

Jason


From John.Andrian at usa.net  Sat Jan 23 20:27:56 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:27:56 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question
Message-ID: <mailman.32674.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

LS wrote:
> 
> I have idenitcal question on the Motronic DME 0261 200 088
> and KLR 0227 400 145 units from Porsche 951 (944T)
> 
> MCU??? markings DME:
> iB 57312  8738
> 
> MCU??? markings KLR:
> iB 57391  8721
> 
> Anybody dissassembled Bosch ECU's?
> 
> Fooled around with prom tables (fuel timing boost)?
> 
> How about AFM to MAF replacement in software?
> 
>                   Thanks Len.
I havent worked on that particular one but I found a prom file from the
fuel ecu and it looks simple. Cant realy tell without the emulator on a
working car.A friend is putting together a 944t and I will be checking
it out soon.I will post my findings asap.
I have worked on Bosch ecus from Fiat Punto GTs,Audi A4 turbo and some
late model BMW.
Most of the time I deal with Magneti Marelli ecus and some Weber.
John Andrianakis.




From John.Andrian at usa.net  Sat Jan 23 20:27:58 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:27:58 -0500
Subject: heated O2 sensor circuit question
Message-ID: <mailman.32675.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ed wrote:
> 
> I plan on relocating my O2 sensor further down into the header since the
> original spot reads off only 2 of the 4 cylinders. Thing is, the
> original sensor is a single wire, and I think I'd need a heated one for
> the new location.
> Any idea how to wire the heater circuit? Is it safe to wire the circuit
> to a switched (engine on) power source or was the heaer designed to shut
> off once it reaches operating temp?
> 
> -Ed
You can switch the heater on with the ignition switch.Its meant to be on
all the time.




From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan 23 21:16:16 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:16:16 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32676.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Not sure if I fully understand you... You have a "single spray" style
of injector right now, but want a slightly larger "two hole" injector?
Or do you want an additional small injector on each cylinder?
I have a shot of the two-hole injector at:
   http://www.enzoco.com/mike/injector/
It is #4 in the group of pics..  Would something like that work,
or are your current injectors pointed noticably toward one 
intake valve in each runner?  If you go the add-on route,
I have lots of 15 pound units.. Write me off-list if you need'em.
Mike V

>  Right now, I have 24 pound/hour injectors (DENSO for Ford), in the 14 Ohm
>  range.  I wouldn't want to go much over 30# at this time.  Fitting the
>  existing fuel rails would be a big plus.  These are the ones with O-Ring
>  seals at each end, ~14mm diameter, 84mm length (seal to seal).
>  
>  Because the existing injector is so well places, I am starting to think
that
>  I might be better off to add a second set.  Does anyone know if there are
>  smallish ones, for about 12-15 pounds/hour that Ford uses anywhere?


From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan 23 21:21:47 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:21:47 -0500
Subject: SpeedBrain
Message-ID: <mailman.32677.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> Gentlemen,

That applies to  *someone* here, I just know it.....
  
>  I wanted to let you all know, for those of you that do not, that we 
>  have a released a high performance replacement for the Ford EEC-
>  IV.  Current models replace the stock computer systems for 89-95 
>  5.0 Mustangs.

Darn, just when I thought they were corraled,  They go faster...
Mike V.   (mustang chaser)


From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Sat Jan 23 21:54:50 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:54:50 -0500
Subject: Those Holden Bins I uploaded are N.G.
Message-ID: <mailman.32678.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>That is indeed fascinating. It's interesting...I ran the bin though my HC11
>disassembler and it actually produces meaningful code. The register block
>seems to start at $3000 and at least a few registers appear true-blue HC11.
>
>It's neat: the address space of the PROM straddles the register space and
>there's program code sitting at $1000 and at $5000,  and there's some RAM
>mapped in there too (e.g. $1800). There's some interesting address decoding
>going on here.
>
>BTW, is there a year and engine VIN# for this PROM? 3.8LV6? I figure late
>model...maybe 1995?


I thought I wrote that info up, anyway, it's from a 1994 model Holden
Commodore (no VIN avail), with 5L V8 (Not a 305 Chev), 4spd Auto Trans. I'm
not sure on the PCM numbers but it has 2 plugs, a 24pin and 32pin, larger
than an 808, a P5 maybe?.

I found the checksum is stored at $6006+$6007, add all bytes from $5000 to
$FFFF then subtract bytes $6000 - $6007.

How bout Zipping that disassemble up and sharing?.

Regards

Ross Myers





From trinity at golden.net  Sat Jan 23 22:00:34 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:00:34 -0500
Subject: 1999 truck PCM's ROM
Message-ID: <mailman.32679.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>I have a PCM (powertrain Control Module a.k.a. ECM)
>from a 1999 GMC sierra pickup truck.  The connectors
>are almost bigger than the circuitboard itself.
>
>Well, anyway.. i have it open, and here's the info
>from the flash ROM chip:
>
>Intel
>16236995
>AB28F400BX
>E 5012
>U7400142Q
>Flash
>
>44 pins
>

Cool. Just in case you didn't know, 

ftp://download.intel.com/support/flash/memory/bootblock/2900501.pdf

is a datasheet for the A28F400BX 4-Mbit flash.


>It's a surface mount device, but i plan to solder
>little wires to it and to a connector so i can
>plug it into my ROM burner (while it's in vivo).
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions or information
>as to whether this could be a bad idea or has
>anyone done it?  I asked GM for a PCM programmer
>kit but surprisingly, they refused to give me one.
>

Considering how rare such a PCM is in wreckers yards at this point and how
expensive one must be from GM, I'd be loathe to try reading it in situ for
fear of damaging it or another device on the board. No chance of desoldering
it eh?


--
 Mike



From spoonie at deltanet.com  Sat Jan 23 22:45:21 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:45:21 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
Message-ID: <mailman.32680.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Not only will it work, and there is probably a calibration  chip that is
close to a "runner" for an engine close to that size.

But you need to ID the candidate engine by "RPO" code to find the chip.

Ward

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Jason Weir
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 12:11 PM
To: DIY_EFI Discussion Group
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747


Ok adding to my previous post, I have found that GM used a 300 CFM TBI
unit from 83 to 86 on their 1.8L engines, this unit will better suit my
purposes, now my project will be making the 7747 run this TBI unit, can
anyone tell me if I have the right connectors, the TPS and IAC will work
correctly.. Below is a link to Holley's OEM replacement version, which
has different connectors than then newer TBI's, but although the
connectors are different does that mean the the 7747 can't/won't work
with the IAC and TPS????

Jason
in over my head again, isn't this fun



From spoonie at deltanet.com  Sat Jan 23 22:45:22 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:45:22 -0500
Subject: '7730 ECM 4 sale
Message-ID: <mailman.32681.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ok I'll bite, how much ?
Ward

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Jake
Sternberg
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 8:24 PM
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: '7730 ECM 4 sale



I'm selling a '7730 ECM from a cavalier or something.
You can have the cavalier Cal-Pak or a socketed Cal-Pak.
Comes with all three connectors with about 3" of wire
coming from them.

Bought it through this list for a project that has died.
Never hooked up (by me).  Came from a very fresh wreck.

Cheap.  Email me.

-jake   chickens at mail.utexas.edu



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 23 23:24:48 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:24:48 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
Message-ID: <mailman.32682.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ward Spoonemore <spoonie at deltanet.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 5:53 PM
Subject: RE: 1.8 TBI and the 7747

Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?.
Bruce


>Not only will it work, and there is probably a calibration  chip that is
>close to a "runner" for an engine close to that size.
>But you need to ID the candidate engine by "RPO" code to find the chip.
>Ward




From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sat Jan 23 23:25:08 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:25:08 -0500
Subject: Av gas
Message-ID: <mailman.32683.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Mike Pitts wrote:
> 
> Air quality isn't the concern.  AvGas probably burns cleaner!
> The gov's concern is that AvGas doesn't carry the same road
> tax as motor vehicle fuel.  (Because planes don't use roads)
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clarence L.Snyder <clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 10:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Av gas(was: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths)
> 
> >Greg Hermann wrote:
> >>
> >> >In Canada it's illegal to put anywhere but into a plane -
> >>
> >> No offense, but doncha love creeping socialism--or is it socialist
> >> creeps??? :-)
> >>
> >> can't even buy
> >> >it to use in a race-car.
> >>
> >> Regards, Greg
> >Actually our air quality is bad enough already - a few days this summer
> >in Kitchener Waterloo area made LA look like clear skies. Anything that
> >helps me breath has to be considered as (possibly) worth while!
> >
No, the AV Gas is higher in lead than ANY licenced road fuel, and lead
has been BANNED for environmental reasons. I guess they figure up at
4000 feet it gets diluted before you breath it, but they are working  on
getting rid of it there too.


From mpitts at emi.net  Sun Jan 24 00:01:12 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:01:12 -0500
Subject: Fel-Pro EFI?
Message-ID: <mailman.32684.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Do you have any experience with the Fel-Pro unit? 

Not personally.

>What are its strengths and weaknesses? 

Pros:
Wideband O2 option
SEFI option
Modern PC software for the laptop
Cylinder by cylinder adjustable timing and fueling option
Probably others

Cons:
Don't know of any except maybe price.

>Is it re-programmable? (Not the A/F maps, but the CPU code) 

The code is only reprogrammable by the designers unless you 
open it, reverse it, and do it yourself.  (Voiding the warranty I'm sure)

>Flash memory?


Most likely EEPROM for tables and EPROM for code.

I'd love to have a Felpro to play with, but the cost is somewhat 
prohibitive for me at this time.

-Mike





From ord at aei.ca  Sun Jan 24 00:09:22 1999
From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:09:22 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32685.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I have to choose;  I can either move the injectors to higher in the manifold
before the runners split and use a twin spray type, or leave the existing
one alone and add one for the second valve.

Since the existing one is doing a good job for it's valve, I'm inclined to
add a second small one, and possibly also downsize the  existing one.  Seems
to me like it's better to have one in the right spot and one wrong that have
both sprays hitting the runner walls.  The downside is it means a second
fuel rail, and some electronics.  Since the additional injector is really
only needed to keep the valve and runner clean (and maybe help with some
low-prm torque?), I am hoping that I can get away with a less than ideal
placement.

Anyone have any recommendations?

Ord

-----Original Message-----
From: ECMnut at aol.com <ECMnut at aol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: dual spray injectors


>Not sure if I fully understand you... You have a "single spray" style
>of injector right now, but want a slightly larger "two hole" injector?
>Or do you want an additional small injector on each cylinder?
>I have a shot of the two-hole injector at:
>   http://www.enzoco.com/mike/injector/
>It is #4 in the group of pics..  Would something like that work,
>or are your current injectors pointed noticably toward one
>intake valve in each runner?  If you go the add-on route,
>I have lots of 15 pound units.. Write me off-list if you need'em.
>Mike V
>




From trinity at golden.net  Sun Jan 24 00:31:57 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:31:57 -0500
Subject: Those Holden Bins I uploaded are N.G.
Message-ID: <mailman.32686.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>
>I thought I wrote that info up, anyway, it's from a 1994 model Holden
>Commodore (no VIN avail), with 5L V8 (Not a 305 Chev), 4spd Auto Trans. 

Sorry. Musta missed that.

>I'm
>not sure on the PCM numbers but it has 2 plugs, a 24pin and 32pin, larger
>than an 808, a P5 maybe?.
>
>I found the checksum is stored at $6006+$6007, add all bytes from $5000 to
>$FFFF then subtract bytes $6000 - $6007.
>
>How bout Zipping that disassemble up and sharing?.
>

Done. Look for "blcclst.zip" (198739 bytes) in the incoming directory.

The ZIP contains 2 files. One is the .lst file which is the raw assembler
listing as run through my home-brew HC11 disassembler. Keep in mind a few
things:

1) The disassembler doesn't know about tables it encounters in the code and
just disassembles them too, sometimes causing minor misalignment errors
after the table. These misalignments never last more than a few bytes. I've
gone through and tried to identify most in-line tables by removing the
mnemonics beside them and fixing any slight misalignments that I noticed.
Some may still exist.

2) Because the processor is probably a later generation than the HC11, there
might be opcodes that aren't included in the HC11 set that are found in the
binary. I didn't immediately notice any but, again, some may exist.

3) I went through the raw binary and identified 4 main code blocks at 1000h,
1801h, 5000h and 9000h. I didn't notice others. If you find any, let me know.

The listing file is "blcc.lst", is quite large (some 15000 lines and 677038
bytes.)

The second file is a convenient tabulation of the complete image allowing
easy identification of bytes found at arbitrary locations. You'll see what I
mean when you see it. It's "blcc.tbl", is 2424 lines and 165617 bytes in size.

Both are plain ASCII text. Hopefully all the tab-stops and stuff line-up...


--
 Mike



From javer96 at snowcrest.net  Sun Jan 24 01:13:53 1999
From: javer96 at snowcrest.net (Vance Rose)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:13:53 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32687.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 03:09 PM 1/22/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>The Ford injectors will fit GM applications? Has anyone actually tested
this on
>a TPI system?
>
>
>Charles Brooks
>
>David Askren wrote:
>
>> >         Ya can buy Ford 24lbs injectors for about 250.00. just don't
tell die hard
>> > gm people this- gets them all tweaked.
>> >
>> > Vance
>>
>> Summit has them in the latest catalog from Ford Motorsport
>> Set of eight 19lb/hr $193
>>                    24lb/hr $199
>>                    30lb/hr $208
>>                    36lb/hr $369
>> Dave
>
>Yup

	have set of 24lbs in pu. 383 tpi cal smogg legal.


Vance


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sun Jan 24 01:23:51 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:23:51 -0500
Subject: SpeedBrain
Message-ID: <mailman.32688.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On your site it says you're working on a product for other makes of cars.
Do you know when the product for GM vehicles will be out?

Charles Brooks

Auburn Performance Equipment wrote:

> Gentlemen,
>
> I wanted to let you all know, for those of you that do not, that we
> have a released a high performance replacement for the Ford EEC-
> IV.  Current models replace the stock computer systems for 89-95
> 5.0 Mustangs.
>
> It is a high performance computer system that, plugs right in, is fully
> tunable, datalogs, and will rev to 10k.
>
> Feel free to learn more at our website at;
> http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/sb.htm
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> AUBURN PERFORMANCE EQUIPMENT
> Home of the world's fastest 4.6 Cobra!
> 1998 Winner 160mph class Big Bend Classic roadrace, Ft Stockton, TX
> 1998 Winner 160mph class Gamblers Run roadrace, Elko, NV
> 1998 Winner 165mph class Silverstate Classic roadrace, Ely, NV
>
> We just don't sell and install parts, we make them perform.
>
> ORDER LINE   1-508-752-7683
> 24 hr FAX LINE (508)752-5269   TECH LINE (508)797-9728
> WEBSITE & ON-LINE CATALOG: http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/index.htm
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From AL8001 at aol.com  Sun Jan 24 01:41:17 1999
From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:41:17 -0500
Subject: Throttle Body sources
Message-ID: <mailman.32689.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 99-01-23 14:58:32 EST, you write:

>Did GM use any other single injector TBIs on any motors smaller than the
>2.5, that still had the standard TPS, and IAC in it...
>
>thanks Jason
>
>

GM used in on the 1.8/ 2.0 Sunbird Overhead cam.  The 2.0/2.2 Cavalire
engine.  

Harold


From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sun Jan 24 01:41:51 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:41:51 -0500
Subject: SpeedBrain
Message-ID: <mailman.32690.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I checked out the site, does the Speed Brain come with the sensors and
wiring harness? You state that it is an additional cost for a couple of the
other systems listed in the comparison. Also when will a similar product be
available for GM applications?

Charles Brooks


Auburn Performance Equipment wrote:

> I wanted to let you all know, for those of you that do not, that we
> have a released a high performance replacement for the Ford EEC-
> IV.  Current models replace the stock computer systems for 89-95
> 5.0 Mustangs.
>
> It is a high performance computer system that, plugs right in, is fully
> tunable, datalogs, and will rev to 10k.



From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net  Sun Jan 24 02:05:24 1999
From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:05:24 -0500
Subject: injector impedance
Message-ID: <mailman.32691.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks, one other list member has them in his Corvette. I think that's the
route I'm going to take.

Charles Brooks



Vance Rose wrote:

>
>
>         have set of 24lbs in pu. 383 tpi cal smogg legal.
>
> Vance



From ECMnut at aol.com  Sun Jan 24 04:13:33 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:13:33 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
Message-ID: <mailman.32692.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/23/99 6:29:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp at bright.net
writes:

> 
>  Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?.
>  Bruce

None..
Mike V


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 24 04:39:54 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:39:54 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
Message-ID: <mailman.32693.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



I knew, you knew that, well maybe a couple other guys,do
Bruce

 
>>  Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?.
>>  Bruce
>None..
>Mike V




From pdatcuk at snip.net  Sun Jan 24 05:39:27 1999
From: pdatcuk at snip.net (Pete Datcuk)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:39:27 -0500
Subject: Throttle Body sources
Message-ID: <mailman.32694.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

   I happen to have one if you are interested.  Its been sitting for awhile,
but it worked when the engine was pulled..

Pete Datcuk
Mechanical Engineer
Sewell, NJ
'87 Fiero, some day to be Northstar'ed :-)
Quite a few credits away from that cone shaped hat....

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Jason Weir
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 2:55 PM
> To: DIY_EFI Discussion Group
> Subject: Throttle Body sources
>
>
> I am looking for a source for a GM throttle body used on the 2.5 4 cyl
<snip>



From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jan 24 05:54:01 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:54:01 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32695.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> I know in the big scheme of things that this is really pretty small potatoes
> but it has sorta bugged me for a bit. 
> 
> Any opinions? Any knowledge?
> 
I was looking at the copyright site yesterday, to see about 
copyrighting some software, you have to submitt up to 50 pages of
source code.  There is another site were you can search for 
copyrights.  I wonder who can look at the source code.
alex 


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jan 24 05:54:03 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:54:03 -0500
Subject: heated O2 sensor circuit question
Message-ID: <mailman.32696.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> I plan on relocating my O2 sensor further down into the header since the
> original spot reads off only 2 of the 4 cylinders. Thing is, the
> original sensor is a single wire, and I think I'd need a heated one for
> the new location. 
> Any idea how to wire the heater circuit? Is it safe to wire the circuit
> to a switched (engine on) power source or was the heaer designed to shut
> off once it reaches operating temp?
> 
wire to key on with fuse, keep wires away from driveshaft.
alex 


From fraser at forbin.com  Sun Jan 24 06:14:12 1999
From: fraser at forbin.com (Jennifer and Brock Fraser)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:14:12 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32697.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>I've long suspected that companies like G-Force, Dinan, Hypertech, ADS, JET
>et al cannot possibly all have agreements with all of the car companies
>whose PROMs they tweak...or do they? Somehow it seems unlikely that GM or
>BMW or Volkswagen would disclose to them technical information about their
>systems and what to modify. But how else would, say, Hypertech come out
with
>the Hypertech programmer for LT1s without such insider information so soon
>after the new cars ('Vette, Impala SS etc) were released?
>
>I know in the big scheme of things that this is really pretty small
potatoes
>but it has sorta bugged me for a bit.
>
>Any opinions? Any knowledge?

I can tell you (as a past Hypertech employee) that copying the stock binary,
making changes, and then selling it as your own work is NOT illegal.  This
has been a legal  issue of long debate.  Once the binary is modified, it is
no longer copyrighted material.  Re-selling of non-modified binaries IS
illegal, however.

To answer your question directly, it would be my guess that to display,
dissect, explain, or otherwise USE the stock image isn't illegal, but to
sell it would be.  There's no such thing as plagiarism on binary data...
modify just a byte, and then you can call it your own.  I'm sure things get
more complicated when you deal with commercial software that has user
interfaces and so forth... then the images and interface could be protected,
I'd assume.   Otherwise, you would see hack programs like "Microsoftish
Words" selling for 10 cents on the dollar of the original program, with all
the functionality.

And, Hypertech doesn't get any "inside information" from the manufacturers.
Time to market on new factory releases is only possible by purchasing the
first car in town of that model, getting started immediately, and working
hard.  Unforeseen technical challenges on selected models will always hurt
time to market, of course.

-Brock




From carmine at ibmoto.com  Sun Jan 24 06:49:50 1999
From: carmine at ibmoto.com (Carmine Nicoletta)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:49:50 -0500
Subject: carb and porting heads
Message-ID: <mailman.32698.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'm contemplating porting the cylinder heads of my 305 
(84 TA 5.0L HO engine, 4bl Quadrajet carb).  What effect
would this have on the stock settings for the carb?
Would the ECM PROM need to be changed? Any pointer would
be appreciated.  Thanks.

Carmine


From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Sun Jan 24 06:52:12 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:52:12 -0500
Subject: Carbon pistons?.
Message-ID: <mailman.32699.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> Key word would normally be Carbon Fiber, what messes that up is
> licensed by NASA.
> 
> >Anyone have any idea what a set of these things would cost?
> >:P
> >Ben

An interesting patent is 4683809, available from IBM {pictures, text as a
graphic] and the PTO [text in ascII]

a carbon-carbon piston does not need rings because of negligable [1/40 of
Al] heat expansion.


4546669 covers a fiber-reinforced synthetic con rod.




From doug at ddelectronics.com  Sun Jan 24 07:25:17 1999
From: doug at ddelectronics.com (Doug Bazarnic)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:25:17 -0500
Subject: Av gas
Message-ID: <mailman.32700.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I use nothing but AVGAS 100LL fuel in my '85 Corvette and on occasion in my
supercharged truck for towing in the summer.   Think of it as Turbo Blue,
but much cheaper! ($1.56 a gallon)

When running it in your computer controller car, make sure you use a lead
tolerant O2 sensor.  Otherwise a brand new non-lead tolerant 02 sesonr will
die in just under 1 tank of gas.  (I went thru a few of them before my lead
tollerant o2 sensor arrived)    I run AVGAS in the Vette because of my high
12.4 compression.   Mix that with 110+ degree days, and NO pump gas will work.

Planes use AVGAS for another reason -- because they are often at 100% power
more often and for longer durations than any street car engine.    How
often do you cruise at 75% throttle on the street? :)     

One other point...   AVGAS octane rating is derived differently than pump
gas.    It's octane numbers are derived from the J3 + J4 / 2 method,
whereas pump gas is Research + Motor / 2.  I haven't found any source that
explains what the j3 and j4 method are and how they compare to the R+M/2
method.

Point number two:  There are no plans to get rid of leaded fuel for
airplanes.   Planes made to this day require leaded fuel for valve sealing
and anti-detonation properties.   Unlike cars,  planes tend to stay in
service for many many decades.

People that have problems running AVGAS in vehicles must take note that it
is less dense and fuel mixture curves must be adjusted.  Those with 02
sensors need not worry. :)   AVGAS also does not idle well when it's cold
out.   You'd be surprised how light a 5 gallon can is.

The downside to AVGAS is the stink!  :)

Doug Bazarnic

http://www.primenet.com/~dougb/vette.html  
85  Vette 383 Auto 3.73 gears
407.6 HP & 397.7 ft/lbs @ rear wheels on AVGAS
11.887 @ 119.24 mph




From trinity at golden.net  Sun Jan 24 07:49:59 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:49:59 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32701.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>I can tell you (as a past Hypertech employee) that copying the stock binary,
>making changes, and then selling it as your own work is NOT illegal.  This
>has been a legal  issue of long debate.  Once the binary is modified, it is
>no longer copyrighted material.  Re-selling of non-modified binaries IS
>illegal, however.
>

This makes sense. I figure if I bought the car, I bought all the firmware
that came with it and I can do as I please with it, including showing it to
the world for all to see, as long as I don't make a profit from it.

Okay, so what about free-distribution then? If I buy a chip from ADS, make
copies of it and then give them to friends with the same car, there must be
some "illegality" in that since these guys are benefitting from ADS'
expertise but ADS is getting nothing from it...even if I didn't make a
profit from it. Basically, it's not my firmware to copy and distribute
(freely or not), right? 

<*sigh*> Any lawyers on the list?

>
>And, Hypertech doesn't get any "inside information" from the manufacturers.
>Time to market on new factory releases is only possible by purchasing the
>first car in town of that model, getting started immediately, and working
>hard.  Unforeseen technical challenges on selected models will always hurt
>time to market, of course.
>

I sorta figured GM wouldn't give/sell info to Hypertech. I guess I was
thinking that since Hypertech is the only one doing a "Power Programmer" (or
are there others now?) I figured they had an inside source for technical
info that the others couldn't crack by brute force reverse engineering.


--
 Mike



From ian at cobi.demon.co.uk  Sun Jan 24 14:10:27 1999
From: ian at cobi.demon.co.uk (Ian Jones)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:10:27 -0500
Subject: 1999 truck PCM's ROM
Message-ID: <mailman.32702.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

There are methods to read in situ but not the way you are suggesting doing
it. Your EPROM reader will supply 5V to the whole board and the processor
will start driving lines your EPROM reader is driving. Not good.

What processor is in the unit?

Ian

www.cobi.demon.co.uk

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Jake
> Sternberg
> Sent: 23 January 1999 17:15
> To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: 1999 truck PCM's ROM
>
>
>
> I have a PCM (powertrain Control Module a.k.a. ECM)
> from a 1999 GMC sierra pickup truck.  The connectors
> are almost bigger than the circuitboard itself.
>
> Well, anyway.. i have it open, and here's the info
> from the flash ROM chip:
>
> Intel
> 16236995
> AB28F400BX
> E 5012
> U7400142Q
> Flash
>
> 44 pins
>
> It's a surface mount device, but i plan to solder
> little wires to it and to a connector so i can
> plug it into my ROM burner (while it's in vivo).
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions or information
> as to whether this could be a bad idea or has
> anyone done it?  I asked GM for a PCM programmer
> kit but surprisingly, they refused to give me one.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -jake  chickens at mail.utexas.edu
>



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan 24 14:14:23 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:14:23 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32703.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 02:50 AM 1/24/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Okay, so what about free-distribution then? If I buy a chip from ADS, make
>copies of it and then give them to friends with the same car, there must be
>some "illegality" in that since these guys are benefitting from ADS'
>expertise but ADS is getting nothing from it...even if I didn't make a
>profit from it. Basically, it's not my firmware to copy and distribute
>(freely or not), right? 

But change the PromID and it's yours to sell etc.
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan 24 14:31:19 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:31:19 -0500
Subject: Av gas
Message-ID: <mailman.32704.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 12:24 AM 1/24/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I use nothing but AVGAS 100LL fuel in my '85 Corvette and on occasion in my
>supercharged truck for towing in the summer.   Think of it as Turbo Blue,
>but much cheaper! ($1.56 a gallon)
>
>When running it in your computer controller car, make sure you use a lead
>tolerant O2 sensor.  Otherwise a brand new non-lead tolerant 02 sesonr will
>die in just under 1 tank of gas.  (I went thru a few of them before my lead
>tollerant o2 sensor arrived)    I run AVGAS in the Vette because of my high
>12.4 compression.   Mix that with 110+ degree days, and NO pump gas will work.

I had always heard that, but ran the 100LL in my 85 Buick GN for 4 years on
a stock AC O2 sensor with no failures.
I was paying 1.83/gal in Bryan, TX.

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 24 14:56:35 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:56:35 -0500
Subject: carb and porting heads
Message-ID: <mailman.32705.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Carmine Nicoletta <carmine at ibmoto.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 2:00 AM
Subject: carb and porting heads

Get a copy of the installation instructions for the GM HO 350 retrofit,
they are/were available seperately.  It gives the part no. for the ecm
you want, chip no, KS + ESC module. 
  Then buy Doug Roe's Q-Jet book, the stock jetting even for a stock
engine stinks, IMHO..
Bruce 


>I'm contemplating porting the cylinder heads of my 305 
>(84 TA 5.0L HO engine, 4bl Quadrajet carb).  What effect
>would this have on the stock settings for the carb?
>Would the ECM PROM need to be changed? Any pointer would
>be appreciated.  Thanks.
>
>Carmine
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 24 15:02:06 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:02:06 -0500
Subject: Av gas
Message-ID: <mailman.32706.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: David A. Cooley <n5xmt at bellsouth.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: Av gas

It must vary some by refinery.  There are just too many different opinions,
about sensor life, and actual results.  While they might have x grams of
lead, they add whatever else they want to the brew.
Bruce


snipped below
>>When running it in your computer controller car, make sure you use a lead
>>tolerant O2 sensor.  Otherwise a brand new non-lead tolerant 02 sesonr
will
>>die in just under 1 tank of gas.
>
>I had always heard that, but ran the 100LL in my 85 Buick GN for 4 years on
>a stock AC O2 sensor with no failures.
 David Cooley N5XMT



From ord at aei.ca  Sun Jan 24 15:39:58 1999
From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:39:58 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32707.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I recently read something posted by an aftermarket developer who claimed
that it was illegal to distribute parts of the original code on his chips.
His solution was to only override some parts (mostly data values), and let
the untouched parts run from the ECU's EEPROM.

I would guess that it depends on whether or not I already had a factory ECU
with the same code in it.

Would Hypertech have been allowed to sell chips with copies of GM code to
people who didn't already have GM ECUs with the same code in them?  (Kind of
moot, since no one else would normally want it).

I remember hearing about a copyright case a while ago (but for PC software),
where the deciding issue ended up being the percentage of bytes that were
different from the original.

Ord


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike <trinity at golden.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 3:56 AM
Subject: Re: PROMs and Copyrights...


>>
>>I can tell you (as a past Hypertech employee) that copying the stock
binary,
>>making changes, and then selling it as your own work is NOT illegal.  This
>>has been a legal  issue of long debate.  Once the binary is modified, it
is
>>no longer copyrighted material.  Re-selling of non-modified binaries IS
>>illegal, however.
>>
>





From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan 24 16:09:45 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:09:45 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32708.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>I've long suspected that companies like G-Force, Dinan, Hypertech, ADS, JET
>>et al cannot possibly all have agreements with all of the car companies
>>whose PROMs they tweak...or do they? Somehow it seems unlikely that GM or
>>BMW or Volkswagen would disclose to them technical information about their
>>systems and what to modify. But how else would, say, Hypertech come out
>with
>>the Hypertech programmer for LT1s without such insider information so soon
>>after the new cars ('Vette, Impala SS etc) were released?
>>
>>I know in the big scheme of things that this is really pretty small
>potatoes
>>but it has sorta bugged me for a bit.
>>
>>Any opinions? Any knowledge?
>
>I can tell you (as a past Hypertech employee) that copying the stock binary,
>making changes, and then selling it as your own work is NOT illegal.  This
>has been a legal  issue of long debate.  Once the binary is modified, it is
>no longer copyrighted material.  Re-selling of non-modified binaries IS
>illegal, however.
>
>To answer your question directly, it would be my guess that to display,
>dissect, explain, or otherwise USE the stock image isn't illegal, but to
>sell it would be.  There's no such thing as plagiarism on binary data...
>modify just a byte, and then you can call it your own.  I'm sure things get
>more complicated when you deal with commercial software that has user
>interfaces and so forth... then the images and interface could be protected,
>I'd assume.   Otherwise, you would see hack programs like "Microsoftish
>Words" selling for 10 cents on the dollar of the original program, with all
>the functionality.
>
>And, Hypertech doesn't get any "inside information" from the manufacturers.
>Time to market on new factory releases is only possible by purchasing the
>first car in town of that model, getting started immediately, and working
>hard.  Unforeseen technical challenges on selected models will always hurt
>time to market, of course.
>
>-Brock

Thanks, Brock--good stuff for all to know and be aware of!

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan 24 16:13:26 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:13:26 -0500
Subject: Carbon pistons?.
Message-ID: <mailman.32709.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:
>
>> Key word would normally be Carbon Fiber, what messes that up is
>> licensed by NASA.
>>
>> >Anyone have any idea what a set of these things would cost?
>> >:P
>> >Ben
>
>An interesting patent is 4683809, available from IBM {pictures, text as a
>graphic] and the PTO [text in ascII]
>
>a carbon-carbon piston does not need rings because of negligable [1/40 of
>Al] heat expansion.

Is this in the patent--(no rings)--it sounds as though, with expansion this
low, it would expand less than the bore, and thus get looser when warmed
up, thus giving pretty spectacular blow-by if no rings???

Regards, Greg
>
>
>4546669 covers a fiber-reinforced synthetic con rod.




From mikebr at sonic.net  Sun Jan 24 19:09:06 1999
From: mikebr at sonic.net (Mike Brown)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:09:06 -0500
Subject: Ford IAC
Message-ID: <mailman.32710.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Robert,
	I don't what model Ford IAM that is used on the Edelbrock ProFlo other
than it is a Ford Unit.  I think it may even have a Ford partnumber on
it.  I can only tell you how the ProFlo unit deals with it.  Its DC
resistance is 8.6 ohms and driven from a hi current driver very simular
to an injector driver.  It is driven with a duty cycle modulated pulse. 
The total period is always 6.7ms  When current is applied to the coil
and the shuttle value is pulled back it lets more air in.  As it is
returned back past center less air passes.  The duty of the pulse varies
as needed to get to the desired target RPM.

Hope this is of some help,
mike



Robert Harris wrote:
> 
> Looking for specific information on the IAC used by Ford on its TBI pickups.
> We have one in hand and are moving on a project using it.
> 
> It appears to be a solenoid operated ( like an injector ) device that opens
> closes a shuttle valve.  The amount of time open appears to control the air
> flow.
> 
> Needed is particulars so we can build a controller.  Namely - coil impedance,
> frequency range - pulses per second, and pulse widths.   Any information on
> flow rates would also be appreciated.
> 
> Its part of the Deviant Dark Sides plans to resurrect old technology, claim it
> as our own and become list heroes.
> 
> On a similar note,  need an exhaust manifold for Christine - did any year big
> car 460 have an oxygen bung built in - hate to weld on in myself.
> 
> 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
> 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
> 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
> 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"
> 
> Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From mpitts at emi.net  Sun Jan 24 19:43:24 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:43:24 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32711.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I think that if the GM really wanted too, they could totally cripple 
the aftermarket prom industry (for GM cars anyway).  GM has 
attorneys on staff (probably hundreds if not thousands).  How 
many aftermarket chip companies could go up against that? 

My guess is that GM does not pursue the aftermarket chip 
companies because it would make for really bad PR.  Just 
my opinion.

As for reversing engineering and displaying your results. It's 
probably not really illegal, but if you were to receive a summons 
that GM was going to sue you in civil court to force you to cease 
and desist...would you fight it?   And if you would, how long would 
you fight it for?  In such an instance, it all boils down to who has 
more money to spend and/or lose.  A sad fact in our "sue happy" 
society.

-Mike




From clive at problem.tantech.com  Sun Jan 24 20:00:55 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:00:55 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32712.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> I think that if the GM really wanted too, they could totally cripple 
> the aftermarket prom industry (for GM cars anyway).  GM has 
> attorneys on staff (probably hundreds if not thousands).  How 
> many aftermarket chip companies could go up against that? 
> 
> My guess is that GM does not pursue the aftermarket chip 
> companies because it would make for really bad PR.  Just 
> my opinion.
> 
> As for reversing engineering and displaying your results. It's 
> probably not really illegal, but if you were to receive a summons 
> that GM was going to sue you in civil court to force you to cease 
> and desist...would you fight it?   And if you would, how long would 
> you fight it for?  In such an instance, it all boils down to who has 
> more money to spend and/or lose.  A sad fact in our "sue happy" 
> society.


and with the net you could just forward 100s of copiies to others who could
also forward it until GM could never possibly send a desist order to all 
parties involved

Clive 
> 
> -Mike
> 
> 



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Sun Jan 24 21:14:44 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:14:44 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question
Message-ID: <mailman.32713.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

(off list)

John Andrianakis wrote:

> Most of the time I deal with Magneti Marelli ecus and some Weber.

Hi John,

I'm looking for a Magneti Marelli ECU to replace (upgrade) the one used in
my Edelbrock ProFlow and another to scavange parts from. It uses an HC11 w/
32K rom and 4 seq. injector drivers. I would like to find one with an HC12,
HC16, or 68332 and 8 injector outputs.

Any ideas where I can find such an animal(s), ie. what cars use them?

Thanks in advance.  Tom Sharpe





From orin at wolfenet.com  Sun Jan 24 22:05:15 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:05:15 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32714.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



> I think that if the GM really wanted too, they could totally cripple 
> the aftermarket prom industry (for GM cars anyway).  GM has 
> attorneys on staff (probably hundreds if not thousands).  How 
> many aftermarket chip companies could go up against that? 

> My guess is that GM does not pursue the aftermarket chip 
> companies because it would make for really bad PR.  Just 
> my opinion.

Yes, bad PR and bad for sales...  there is a segment of the market
that considers the availability of 'performance enhancing' chips
a factor in what vehicle to purchase.  If GM stomp out the chip
vendors, and without a doubt they could, then they lose this
segment of the market.

So I think they are busy looking the other way.

As far as copyright is concerned, my guess (IANAL etc.) is that
it is technically illegal to sell a chip containing modified GM
code - it would be a derivative work.  Just changing a few bytes
or tables isn't sufficient...

However, GM would be hard pressed to prove any actual damages.  After all,
you need their hardware to run the code!

Now if someone was to sell their own hardware with GM code, I
would expect GM to stop them.

Orin.



From doug at ddelectronics.com  Sun Jan 24 22:14:47 1999
From: doug at ddelectronics.com (Doug Bazarnic)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:14:47 -0500
Subject: Av gas
Message-ID: <mailman.32715.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I had always heard that, but ran the 100LL in my 85 Buick GN for 4 years on
>a stock AC O2 sensor with no failures.
>I was paying 1.83/gal in Bryan, TX.

An old dirty O2 sensor will work for quite awhile due to the soot build up.
  However, when using a new one, the lead instantly coats it, thereby
ruining it.   I was using my stock '85 o2 sensor until I dropped an intake
valve and sent oil and coolant down the pipes.   It didn't work after that. :)

Doug Bazarnic












>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
>===========================================================
> 


From John.Andrian at usa.net  Sun Jan 24 23:20:43 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:20:43 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32716.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ord Millar wrote:
> 
> Hi - I am just returning to the list; I was previously a lurker here but other interests got in the way for a while.
> 
> Does anyone know where I can find some injectors that spray two cones?
> Alternately, how about an injector where the spray is at a small (15 degree) angle relative to the body?
> Or, in a perfect world, one that does both?  (Two cones, at an angle).
> Worst case, I can try to work with some sort of deflector.
> 
> I am working on a project to deliver fuel at both valves on a multi-valve head.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ord
Bosch has various injectors that spray two cones, I seen thm on BMW
multi valve engines.
What sort of flow rating are you looking for?
John Andrianakis.




From trinity at golden.net  Sun Jan 24 23:57:34 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:57:34 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32717.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>Yes, bad PR and bad for sales...  there is a segment of the market
>that considers the availability of 'performance enhancing' chips
>a factor in what vehicle to purchase.  If GM stomp out the chip
>vendors, and without a doubt they could, then they lose this
>segment of the market.
>

But GM has demonstrated that it's not really *that* interested in that
segment with the demise of the Impala SS and the rumored demise soon of the
Camaro and Firebird - arguably the main carlines that involved any
aftermarket computer "chipping" at all. I think more Trans-Am buyers will
tweak their computers than, say, Park Avenue owners.

Chip modifications have been around for quite some time, since the mid-80s
at least and GM apparently showed no interest in all of that time period to
do anything about "hacked" PROMs. I should ask myself "Why would they (or
any carmaker for that matter?) all of a sudden express an interest to stop
hobby-hackers?" 

In the early going (mid to late 80s), the outfits making money from GM PROMs
(the Hypertechs and ADSs etc, etc) were small in size and numbers and GM
could have leveraged it's not-inconsiderable legal clout to close down such
upstarts in a wink but chose, for whatever reason, not to. Maybe that's
evidence of tacit approval? Or maybe they had no legal way to do it? Maybe
things have changed in the legal field since the 80s vis a vis firmware
protection under copyright law?

Keep in mind that one of the tennets of OBD-II was non-removable "PROMs" -
that is, program/calibration memories that were not socketed so replacement
with higher-emission "performance" PROMs was, except for a vanishingly small
number of owners who are skilled in electronics, out of the question. But
this was not the choice of GM (I'm quite certain they'd have been happy not
having to re-engineer their entire powertrain control computer line) but
rather politicians.

>So I think they are busy looking the other way.

Apparently so. I guess all makers are looking that way since none of the
majors (that I know of) have mounted legal challenges to chippers. Maybe
you're right when you said above about the "market segment". I think of Ford
Motorsports, for instance: They *must* be aware that modules exist to
enhance EEC-IV systems but they don't seem to mind. In fact, they may see
such modules as encouraging the purchase of stuff from their own shelves.

>
>As far as copyright is concerned, my guess (IANAL etc.) is that
>it is technically illegal to sell a chip containing modified GM
>code - it would be a derivative work.  Just changing a few bytes
>or tables isn't sufficient...
>

That's what _I_ think too. 

But I've looked at an ADS chip for an '88 Z24 (P4) compared to the ATZA OEM
chip and they really did not change a whole lot of stuff yet they sell
(sold?) the thing for quite a tidy sum. Apparently, GM saw no reason to
intercede...

>However, GM would be hard pressed to prove any actual damages.  After all,
>you need their hardware to run the code!

Sort of the ultimate hardware key :)

>
>Now if someone was to sell their own hardware with GM code, I
>would expect GM to stop them.
>

Looking at traditional GM code, I'd say that for that hardware to work with
GM PROMs, it'd have to be designed pretty-much trace-for-trace the same as
the GM ECM since the code is so deeply integrated with the hardware, which
certainly would be grounds for an "Ahem...what do you think you're doing?"
letter.


--
 Mike



From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Mon Jan 25 00:43:12 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:43:12 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32718.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> I can tell you (as a past Hypertech employee) that copying the stock
-> binary, making changes, and then selling it as your own work is NOT
-> illegal.  This has been a legal  issue of long debate.  Once the
-> binary is modified, it is no longer copyrighted material.  Re-selling
-> of non-modified binaries IS illegal, however.

 By US law copying, modifying, and reselling code is a Federal crime.
Several states also have anti-hacking and anti-piracy laws that cover
this.

 Hypertech and others get away with their practices because the OEMs
have chosen, for whatever reasons, not to take them to court.  There
aren't any Copyright Police looking around for violations; GM or Ford or
whoever has to set the ball rolling.

 Just because Hypertech and others are not being prosecuted doesn't make
what they're doing legal - all any OEM would have to do is file, and it
would an open-and-shut rubber stamp trial.  There are ample precedents
on the subject of piracy of ROM code - IBM, Apple, and Phoenix BIOS all
filed suit against code pirates and won.

 I've discussed this subject with several chip vendors, who all seem to
engage in the same kind of wishful thinking as Hypertech.

 Personally, I don't think the chip vendors are hurting anyone, and by
some lights they might even be doing the OEMs a favor.  But the law says
what the chip vendors are doing is unlawful and actionable, and
pretending it isn't is merely self delusion.

==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                                                                                                                               


From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Mon Jan 25 00:43:15 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:43:15 -0500
Subject: Carbon pistons?.
Message-ID: <mailman.32719.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> a carbon-carbon piston does not need rings because of negligable
-> [1/40 of Al] heat expansion.

 Sure.  Same with a properly designed and fitted cast iron piston.
However, the tapered skirt at the bottom and rings on the top
dramatically reduce cylinder wall friction.

==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                 


From mwichstr at online.no  Mon Jan 25 00:45:08 1999
From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:45:08 -0500
Subject: Resolution.
Message-ID: <mailman.32720.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi !
Seeking a good solution to high powered streetable engines......some
questions pops up....
Where is the weak link in the Efi system when it comes to resolution?
MAP SENSOR: Going from 1 to 2bar halfs the resolution....3bar even worse.
Is staging map sensors a posibility?
0 to 5 volts  :  how acurate can the ecm measure the input from the
sensors?
Is 0 to 10 v better?  or frequensy?
ECM: Computers ability .
INJECTORS:Huge injectors on idle or high rpm must give bad resolution.
How fine can they do their task?

To expand the range of the system we have some options,Using staged
injectors,peak and hold drivers,  sequential efi and increasing rate fuel
pressure regulator. When triggering the injector 
just once insted of two each revolution you have a better chance of
avoiding 
to be in the non linear part of injector delivery at small opening
times.And one longer time means more acurate than two small?Batch fier is
once each 
revolution isnt it?
Is it possible to say what maximum injector that can be used  with a
reasonable idle resolution?
Is there some good info on this aria anywhere?
Espen Hilde


From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 25 01:18:06 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:18:06 -0500
Subject: Fw: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32721.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

What I've heard is the the auto industry was to make all the code
available to anyone wanting to develope a diagnostic tool that would
be compatible with automotive computers.  The EPA and GM are
still hassling it out (since 81).  Key words were anyone, and
diagnostic tools.
  So if they went after someone, then the EPA issue would have to be
settled, and even gm has limits to who it will fight.  So rather than have
to give it all away, they perfer to tie it up, and just let sleeping dogs
lie.
Bruce

>I think that if the GM really wanted too, they could totally cripple
>the aftermarket prom industry (for GM cars anyway).  GM has
>attorneys on staff (probably hundreds if not thousands).  How
>many aftermarket chip companies could go up against that?




From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 25 01:34:59 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:34:59 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32722.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Guenther,Max wrote:
> 
> >On Jan 21, 11:49pm, James Ballenger wrote:
> >Great scott!  Please keep me up-to-date on this project.  I want to FI a big
> >Poncho myself when I have the time to do the same.
> >
> >--andrew
> >
> >I'd really rather have a Buick.  I was thinking a Buick 455 and two GM TBI on
> > a dual quad intake.  Just make some adapters from four bbl to TBI's and GM
> >HEI's are still available for that engine (junk yard).  Now for the
> >PROM...........
> >Max
> >

I've got a 455 Buick in my 79 monte.  When EFI conversion time comes,
it includes an Edelbrock 4 bbl intake and 8 injectors.  It's been a
long time plan, and the car is now dissappearing in NE road salt.  But
when the time comes, that's what it gets.  

Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter should be
connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
points dizzy.

Shannen



From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 25 01:52:55 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:52:55 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32723.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence L.Snyder wrote:
> 
> Clarence Wood wrote:
> >
> >   Please give more information on "motor-vac".  How does it work?  How much does it cost?  Where do you get it?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Clarence
> >
> > At 06:40 PM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > (snip)>I don't know if it acts as a sponge or what, but the presence / absence
> > >of carbon on the intake valves makes a SIGNIFICANT difference in
> > >driveability. The 3.0 litre V6 in my aerostar had a BAD stumble off idle
> > >when partly warmed up - to the point that on a cold day if I fired it up
> > >and drove to the corner down the street it would invariably stall when
> > >pulling away unless I floored it. Tried everything. Finally used a
> > >"motor-vac" on it, which does an excellent job of decarbonizing - and
> > >it's been perfect since.
> > >
> > >
> It is a fuel system / engine cleaner unit that connects to the car and
> draws a calibrated amount of fuel into  itself. You add a very
> concentrated cleaner to the gas, which is then tun through the system,
> from the filter forward under pressure. You run the engine through a
> cycle with this beasy connected and the intake valves, cyls, lines, and
> injectors are clean enough you couls eat off of them. I was a doubter
> myself 'till my brother called me and said they needed a guinea pig for
> the distributor to demonstrate the gizmo on - and knowing my AeroScare
> was misbehaving, and he could not fix it.
> Never know it was the same truck.
> The unit is expensive - several thousand if I remember correctly, and my
> brother has not bought one - yet. Apparently they are also "rotunda"
> branded and sold to Ford dealers - and sold under several other brand
> names. About the same size as an antifreeze recycler or bar fridge.

Just to add a little to this, I used to do motor-vacs in the shop I
worked in.  They worked great, but recommended price was about
$80.00.  They are made by a co. owned by Snap-on.  Anyone interested
can search on the web, there's a page for them somewhere.

Now for the good stuff...  The special cleaner was similar to GM Top
Engine Cleaner.  So similar that we saved a bundle by switching to
it!  Concetration that seemed to work best was 1/2 can to 5 gals gas. 
Machine was simple 12V pump, tank, mechanically adjustable pressure
regulator, and timer.  So the DIY'ers can easily make one!  Hardest
part is making hoses to connect to FI system.  If you play your cards
right, the whole thing could be done for very little $$.  

Shannen



From ron.boley at worldnet.att.net  Mon Jan 25 01:55:38 1999
From: ron.boley at worldnet.att.net (ron.boley)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:55:38 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32724.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Mike wrote:
The bigger question on copying and modifying the OEM code is who out
here does emissions testing on the final results?  The OEM's spend huge
$$$ on testing and I suspect are on the hook for any changes that effect
emissions.  Do any aftermarket tuners who make PROM changes recertify
the cars or even test for emissions?

The thought of the trying to stand your ground with state and local
Environmental Groups/Associations, the EPA would make anyone pale.

Ron


> 
> >
> >Yes, bad PR and bad for sales...  there is a segment of the market
> >that considers the availability of 'performance enhancing' chips
> >a factor in what vehicle to purchase.  If GM stomp out the chip
> >vendors, and without a doubt they could, then they lose this
> >segment of the market.
> >
> 
> But GM has demonstrated that it's not really *that* interested in that
> segment with the demise of the Impala SS and the rumored demise soon of the
> Camaro and Firebird - arguably the main carlines that involved any
> aftermarket computer "chipping" at all. I think more Trans-Am buyers will
> tweak their computers than, say, Park Avenue owners.
> 
> Chip modifications have been around for quite some time, since the mid-80s
> at least and GM apparently showed no interest in all of that time period to
> do anything about "hacked" PROMs. I should ask myself "Why would they (or
> any carmaker for that matter?) all of a sudden express an interest to stop
> hobby-hackers?"
> 
> In the early going (mid to late 80s), the outfits making money from GM PROMs
> (the Hypertechs and ADSs etc, etc) were small in size and numbers and GM
> could have leveraged it's not-inconsiderable legal clout to close down such
> upstarts in a wink but chose, for whatever reason, not to. Maybe that's
> evidence of tacit approval? Or maybe they had no legal way to do it? Maybe
> things have changed in the legal field since the 80s vis a vis firmware
> protection under copyright law?
> 
> Keep in mind that one of the tennets of OBD-II was non-removable "PROMs" -
> that is, program/calibration memories that were not socketed so replacement
> with higher-emission "performance" PROMs was, except for a vanishingly small
> number of owners who are skilled in electronics, out of the question. But
> this was not the choice of GM (I'm quite certain they'd have been happy not
> having to re-engineer their entire powertrain control computer line) but
> rather politicians.
> 
> >So I think they are busy looking the other way.
> 
> Apparently so. I guess all makers are looking that way since none of the
> majors (that I know of) have mounted legal challenges to chippers. Maybe
> you're right when you said above about the "market segment". I think of Ford
> Motorsports, for instance: They *must* be aware that modules exist to
> enhance EEC-IV systems but they don't seem to mind. In fact, they may see
> such modules as encouraging the purchase of stuff from their own shelves.
> 
> >
> >As far as copyright is concerned, my guess (IANAL etc.) is that
> >it is technically illegal to sell a chip containing modified GM
> >code - it would be a derivative work.  Just changing a few bytes
> >or tables isn't sufficient...
> >
> 
> That's what _I_ think too.
> 
> But I've looked at an ADS chip for an '88 Z24 (P4) compared to the ATZA OEM
> chip and they really did not change a whole lot of stuff yet they sell
> (sold?) the thing for quite a tidy sum. Apparently, GM saw no reason to
> intercede...
> 
> >However, GM would be hard pressed to prove any actual damages.  After all,
> >you need their hardware to run the code!
> 
> Sort of the ultimate hardware key :)
> 
> >
> >Now if someone was to sell their own hardware with GM code, I
> >would expect GM to stop them.
> >
> 
> Looking at traditional GM code, I'd say that for that hardware to work with
> GM PROMs, it'd have to be designed pretty-much trace-for-trace the same as
> the GM ECM since the code is so deeply integrated with the hardware, which
> certainly would be grounds for an "Ahem...what do you think you're doing?"
> letter.
> 
> --
>  Mike


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Mon Jan 25 02:00:17 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:00:17 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32725.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Dave Williams wrote:

> 
>  By US law copying, modifying, and reselling code is a Federal crime.
> Several states also have anti-hacking and anti-piracy laws that cover
> this.
> 
>  Hypertech and others get away with their practices because the OEMs
> have chosen, for whatever reasons, not to take them to court.  There
> aren't any Copyright Police looking around for violations; GM or Ford or
> whoever has to set the ball rolling.
> 
>  Just because Hypertech and others are not being prosecuted doesn't make
> what they're doing legal - all any OEM would have to do is file, and it
> would an open-and-shut rubber stamp trial.  There are ample precedents
> on the subject of piracy of ROM code - IBM, Apple, and Phoenix BIOS all
> filed suit against code pirates and won.
>

There is a additional issue here.  IBM, Apple, and all of them the
others were copying and putting someone elses prom with their own
hardware. I don't think IBM or Apple would have messed with someone
taking one of their proms changing it and reselling it so long as 1
IBM or Apple prom was bought for each one sold, ie a license for the
original code. And each piece of GM hardware you would suppose would
have one license to run the GM code included with it.  Now if one of
the aftermarket companies made their own computer (or copyied someone
elses) and were making those and selling them with GM (or someome
elses code) then things would be pretty clear.  The derivative work
works so long as the person making the derivative has the proper
number of licesnes for all of his derivatives sold.  In most of the
aftermarket prom business that is the case.

 
>  I've discussed this subject with several chip vendors, who all seem to
> engage in the same kind of wishful thinking as Hypertech.
> 
>  Personally, I don't think the chip vendors are hurting anyone, and by
> some lights they might even be doing the OEMs a favor.  But the law says
> what the chip vendors are doing is unlawful and actionable, and
> pretending it isn't is merely self delusion.
> 
> ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
> I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
> my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
> =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
>                                                                                                                                
> 



From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Mon Jan 25 02:12:31 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:12:31 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32726.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>My guess is that GM does not pursue the aftermarket chip 
>companies because it would make for really bad PR.  Just 
>my opinion.

Aside from the bad PR, it would be bad for sales.  Let's say that they
kill the aftermarker "speed chips", but Ford doesn't.  Are you going to
buy a Camaro or a Mustang?

Ray

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 25 02:40:08 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:40:08 -0500
Subject: 1999 truck PCM's ROM
Message-ID: <mailman.32727.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Jake Sternberg wrote:
<snip>
>  I asked GM for a PCM programmer
> kit but surprisingly, they refused to give me one.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -jake  chickens at mail.utexas.edu
A PCM Programmer kit??  What are you trying to get?  

Shannen



From dzorde at geocities.com  Mon Jan 25 03:03:29 1999
From: dzorde at geocities.com (dzorde)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:03:29 -0500
Subject: EFI questions
Message-ID: <mailman.32728.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi everyone,

Been a while since I've had any questions so here goes.  Finally got around
to fitting an O2 sensor to my car (can say that on avgas it still works
after 20+ hrs of operation).  This car has a Wolf 3D running the engine
using MAP, TPS and associated temp sensors.   

Anyway my car has always been running with bright white tail pipes, hence I
figured it was lean.  With the O2 I have found something I can't explain.
The O2 is always around 0.82V going to 0.9V+ when accelerating (seems very
rich), however car runs beautifully. If you lean of the fuel maps to reduce
the O2 readings the car just won't run, seems like complete fuel starvation
as soon as you touch the accelerator (even tried hardwiring the heated O2
shell to the -ve battery terminal to ensure the voltage wasn't floating or
anything stupid).  Why can the car only run when rich (had it on a real gas
analyser and it said very rich as well) ?  Is it the high compression 12.8:1
(or so) ?

Another question, because the system is speed density, when you back of the
accelerator the engine unloads and picks fuel delivery for its new suited
map point (lower load range) causing the O2 to read almost 0V (very lean).
Is this normal for a speed density system ?  It seems correct to me as the
injection is based on looking up a base value in the map, but it doesn't
seem very healthy for the engine to lean of everytime you back of.  I have
been thinking this could be why I have white tailpipes as the car is
spending most of its time on and off the gas when racing.

Lots of questions, but this one has me puzzled.

rgds

Dan     dzorde at soanar.com.au  



From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 25 03:18:22 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:18:22 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32729.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>>
>>As far as copyright is concerned, my guess (IANAL etc.) is that
>>it is technically illegal to sell a chip containing modified GM
>>code - it would be a derivative work.  Just changing a few bytes
>>or tables isn't sufficient...

Somewhere in a memory bank is the number 10%--if you change that much, it's
considered yours. Can't remember where that came from, tho.
>
>But I've looked at an ADS chip for an '88 Z24 (P4) compared to the ATZA OEM
>chip and they really did not change a whole lot of stuff yet they sell
>(sold?) the thing for quite a tidy sum. Apparently, GM saw no reason to
>intercede...
>
>>However, GM would be hard pressed to prove any actual damages.  After all,
>>you need their hardware to run the code!

BINGO! No damages=No money=No lawyers! And yes, that summarizes my opinion
of MOST lawyers. Our British colleagues have their collective character
pretty well nailed what with calling a bunch of them "Solicitors"!!!

Plus--if you wanna talk about the ultimate case of theft of intellectual
property, and how far it got in court, take a look at Apple v. Macrosquish
over Windoze. And this is one where the court or jurors could actually
understand what they were looking at--not a bunch of 1's and 0's!!
>>>
>>Now if someone was to sell their own hardware with GM code, I
>>would expect GM to stop them.
>>
>
>Looking at traditional GM code, I'd say that for that hardware to work with
>GM PROMs, it'd have to be designed pretty-much trace-for-trace the same as
>the GM ECM since the code is so deeply integrated with the hardware, which
>certainly would be grounds for an "Ahem...what do you think you're doing?"
>letter.

A bunch of folks tried a similar approach with proprietary hardware, code,
communications protocols, etc. in the digital building controls industry.
There was some outright robbery going on in terms of parts, system
expansion, and service pricing once a building owner/property manager got
committed to one control hardware mfgr.

Through trade organizations (like BOMA) and with the help of design
professionals, who learned to write smarter specs, this general practice is
nearly whipped into submission at this time--open protocols, etc. are
becoming the norm very rapidly in the building controls industry.

What it is gonna take to straighten this $#% out in the auto industry is a
few big fleet buyers (hertz-Avis-Budget-Penske-etc.) getting collectively
smart and saying "ENOUGH OF THIS #$&*$#% !!!! We insist on open protocols,
etc.!! First one to do it is the one who will sell us all of our
vehicles!!"

OBDII is likely , in no small part, the direct result of these kinda folks
collectively lobbying in DC, and reaching a compromise with the GEEKS so as
to continue to foil the hot rodders!!
>
>
Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 25 03:44:08 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:44:08 -0500
Subject: Resolution.
Message-ID: <mailman.32730.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hi !
>Seeking a good solution to high powered streetable engines......some
>questions pops up....
>Where is the weak link in the Efi system when it comes to resolution?
>MAP SENSOR: Going from 1 to 2bar halfs the resolution....3bar even worse.
>Is staging map sensors a posibility?
>0 to 5 volts  :  how acurate can the ecm measure the input from the
>sensors?
>Is 0 to 10 v better?  or frequensy?
>ECM: Computers ability .

There are plenty of instrument grade pressure transducers available,
Ashcroft, for one, with 0.25% full scale accuracy and better repeatability
than that,  All you gotta do is know which counter to ask for them at, and
be prepared to pay for them. Your choice of 0-5V, 0-10V, or 4-20 ma output
signal. 4-20 ma is most popular signal output for industrial
instrumentation because of wiring open/short failures being so easily
detected with it. Similar accuracy/quality/choice is readily available in
any of the other sensors commonly used in an efi system. Cost/performance
ratio is the only question as to sensors. No question that a high
horsepower engine needs more "turndown ratio" than a stocker to be decently
streetable, and that higher turndown ratios require more accurate input
data, and that the auto mfgrs are not bloody likely to spend the money
required to be any more accurate than they need to be in order to meet
emissions regs with an average HP engine!!

Real questions here are :"How many bits wide are the A/D converters in the
ecu?" and "How many mapping points does the load/rpm matrix need to
contain?" and "How many bits wide is the fuel rate calculation (and tables)
in the ecu?" and ""What is the minimum time increment to injector pw which
the ecu will implement?" and "How many bits wide does everything need to be
in order to obtain the desired level of turndown to give your high HP
engine decent street manners?"

Staging injectors, and rising rate fuel pressure control are certainly a
help, particularly if there are fuel rail pressure and temp inputs to the
ecu for fuel rate corrections on the fly!

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 25 03:50:10 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:50:10 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32731.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>
>Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter should be
>connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
>control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
>points dizzy.

Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know of
any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)

Regards, Greg
>
>Shannen




From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 25 03:54:55 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:54:55 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32732.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Dave Williams wrote:
>
>>
>>  By US law copying, modifying, and reselling code is a Federal crime.
>> Several states also have anti-hacking and anti-piracy laws that cover
>> this.
>>
>>  Hypertech and others get away with their practices because the OEMs
>> have chosen, for whatever reasons, not to take them to court.  There
>> aren't any Copyright Police looking around for violations; GM or Ford or
>> whoever has to set the ball rolling.
>>
>>  Just because Hypertech and others are not being prosecuted doesn't make
>> what they're doing legal - all any OEM would have to do is file, and it
>> would an open-and-shut rubber stamp trial.  There are ample precedents
>> on the subject of piracy of ROM code - IBM, Apple, and Phoenix BIOS all
>> filed suit against code pirates and won.
>>
>
>There is a additional issue here.  IBM, Apple, and all of them the
>others were copying and putting someone elses prom with their own
>hardware. I don't think IBM or Apple would have messed with someone
>taking one of their proms changing it and reselling it so long as 1
>IBM or Apple prom was bought for each one sold, ie a license for the
>original code. And each piece of GM hardware you would suppose would
>have one license to run the GM code included with it.  Now if one of
>the aftermarket companies made their own computer (or copyied someone
>elses) and were making those and selling them with GM (or someome
>elses code) then things would be pretty clear.  The derivative work
>works so long as the person making the derivative has the proper
>number of licesnes for all of his derivatives sold.  In most of the
>aftermarket prom business that is the case.
>
Yep--what the chip makers are doing is a much closer analogy to what the
writer of a system extension or patch is doing than to theft. Simply
changing the way something runs from the original.

Regards, Greg




From orin at wolfenet.com  Mon Jan 25 04:00:37 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:00:37 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32733.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> Mike wrote:
> The bigger question on copying and modifying the OEM code is who out
> here does emissions testing on the final results?  The OEM's spend huge
> $$$ on testing and I suspect are on the hook for any changes that effect
> emissions.  Do any aftermarket tuners who make PROM changes recertify
> the cars or even test for emissions?

Well, Intended Acceleration has CARB approval for some of their
'modifications'.  What this actually involves is a different matter...

Orin.


From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 25 04:15:27 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:15:27 -0500
Subject: Resolution.
Message-ID: <mailman.32734.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

But, but, what about the filtering?.  Doesn't that fly in the  face
of needing absolutely accurate MAP sensing?.
  **Notice the question mark, I'm asking.
  This "filtering" is a funny animal, in so far as using larger ID/
loner sensor lines can make a vast difference on some
applications, and I've always had better response with smaller
shorter lines.
Bruce

 more accurate input
>data, and that the auto mfgrs are not bloody likely to spend the money
>required to be any more accurate than they need to be in order to meet
>emissions regs with an average HP engine!!
>
>Real questions here are :"How many bits wide are the A/D converters in the
>ecu?" and "How many mapping points does the load/rpm matrix need to
>contain?" and "How many bits wide is the fuel rate calculation (and tables)
>in the ecu?" and ""What is the minimum time increment to injector pw which
>the ecu will implement?" and "How many bits wide does everything need to be
>in order to obtain the desired level of turndown to give your high HP
>engine decent street manners?"
>
>Staging injectors, and rising rate fuel pressure control are certainly a
>help, particularly if there are fuel rail pressure and temp inputs to the
>ecu for fuel rate corrections on the fly!
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 25 04:26:20 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:26:20 -0500
Subject: EFI questions
Message-ID: <mailman.32735.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: dzorde <dzorde at geocities.com>
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:15 PM
Subject: EFI questions

When in doubt read the spark plugs.  AV can look lean, but the signs of
detonation are always present, from what I've seen.  Now, I'll fully admit,
it's been years since doing much AV gas reading.  Try a load of good
racing gas if you have trouble reading the AV stuff.  And I've got zero
time reading australian AV Gas.
  Pipe coloring is dead in my book.
Bruce



>Hi everyone,
>
>Been a while since I've had any questions so here goes.  Finally got around
>to fitting an O2 sensor to my car (can say that on avgas it still works
>after 20+ hrs of operation).  This car has a Wolf 3D running the engine
>using MAP, TPS and associated temp sensors.
>
>Anyway my car has always been running with bright white tail pipes, hence I
>figured it was lean.  With the O2 I have found something I can't explain.
>The O2 is always around 0.82V going to 0.9V+ when accelerating (seems very
>rich), however car runs beautifully. If you lean of the fuel maps to reduce
>the O2 readings the car just won't run, seems like complete fuel starvation
>as soon as you touch the accelerator (even tried hardwiring the heated O2
>shell to the -ve battery terminal to ensure the voltage wasn't floating or
>anything stupid).  Why can the car only run when rich (had it on a real gas
>analyser and it said very rich as well) ?  Is it the high compression
12.8:1
>(or so) ?
>
>Another question, because the system is speed density, when you back of the
>accelerator the engine unloads and picks fuel delivery for its new suited
>map point (lower load range) causing the O2 to read almost 0V (very lean).
>Is this normal for a speed density system ?  It seems correct to me as the
>injection is based on looking up a base value in the map, but it doesn't
>seem very healthy for the engine to lean of everytime you back of.  I have
>been thinking this could be why I have white tailpipes as the car is
>spending most of its time on and off the gas when racing.
>
>Lots of questions, but this one has me puzzled.
>
>rgds
>
>Dan     dzorde at soanar.com.au
>



From tmatthew at stny.lrun.com  Mon Jan 25 04:36:33 1999
From: tmatthew at stny.lrun.com (Thomas Matthews)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:36:33 -0500
Subject: Delco calibration
Message-ID: <mailman.32736.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Can anyone look up the calibration APYU out of an 89 Formula 350? I'm
wondering if it's current, and does anyone have a PN so I could order
another CALPAC from GM? Anyone know what the 89 305 5 speed CALPAC GM part
number is?
TIA,
Tom



From trinity at golden.net  Mon Jan 25 04:41:38 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:41:38 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32737.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


<*snip*>

>>Looking at traditional GM code, I'd say that for that hardware to work with
>>GM PROMs, it'd have to be designed pretty-much trace-for-trace the same as
>>the GM ECM since the code is so deeply integrated with the hardware, which
>>certainly would be grounds for an "Ahem...what do you think you're doing?"
>>letter.
>
>A bunch of folks tried a similar approach with proprietary hardware, code,
>communications protocols, etc. in the digital building controls industry.
>There was some outright robbery going on in terms of parts, system
>expansion, and service pricing once a building owner/property manager got
>committed to one control hardware mfgr.
>
>Through trade organizations (like BOMA) and with the help of design
>professionals, who learned to write smarter specs, this general practice is
>nearly whipped into submission at this time--open protocols, etc. are
>becoming the norm very rapidly in the building controls industry.
>
>What it is gonna take to straighten this $#% out in the auto industry is a
>few big fleet buyers (hertz-Avis-Budget-Penske-etc.) getting collectively
>smart and saying "ENOUGH OF THIS #$&*$#% !!!! We insist on open protocols,
>etc.!! First one to do it is the one who will sell us all of our
>vehicles!!"
>

"Open protocols" in what sense? OBD-II went a long way toward
standardization of extra-vehicular communication but even then they couldn't
get their shit together enough to give us a true "standard": we're stuck
with 16-pin OBD-II plugs with no less than 3 possible types of
communications interface (ISO, VPW and PWM at two possible rates
fercrissakes...) An OBD-II scanner that works on GM cars may not work on
Ford cars. I suppose it's not a true OBD-II scanner then...


I think I sense the thread drifting slightly off course from the spirit of
my original query so I'll restate it now that I've seen several learned
responses that gave me a bit of insight and direction:

How does copyright law affect us, as geeks, nerds, white-hat-hackers,
hobbiests and general gear-heads (or whatever you want to call us) insofar as:

- making a copy of a PROM image in ones own car or from a PCM/ECM in ones
possession
- uploading said PROM image to, say, the imcoming directory
- downloading any image from the incoming directory
- reverse engineering an image obtained either by reading a PROM or
downloading it
- publishing in the public domain, free of charge, findings of that reverse
engineering (for example, "Change byte at 81F4 to remove the speed limiter"
or "The byte at 81F4 describes the maximum TPS voltage before such and such
a code is set")

For now, I'll assume we as list members are in it for the "educational" or
otherwise "personal" uses and not for profit. I've seen arguments on both
sides (i.e. both "It's all okay" and "It's all illegal"), all of which are
convincing in their own way. 

So I'm guessing it's safe to assume that there's some level of illegality
involved in what 99% of us are doing but that since we aren't making money
at it, we are generally doing it for personal and/or educational purposes
and we are, after all, pretty small potatoes when it comes to threatening
the industrial complexes of Ford, GM, Nippon-Denso, Mazda et al, we are
probably at zero risk of raising the ire of the manufacturers.

Sounds reasonable right?


--
 Mike



From ChvyRs92 at aol.com  Mon Jan 25 04:55:22 1999
From: ChvyRs92 at aol.com (ChvyRs92 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:55:22 -0500
Subject: Wireing advice
Message-ID: <mailman.32738.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Quick question. Does anyone know if there are any companies out there that
would re-pin a bulkhead connector for one 92 chevy to another? I have the
schematics for both cars, but I have only been able to figure out about 2/3 of
it and I really can't say that I am absolutely certain that what I think I
have is right? 
Thanks,
	Jeff


From fraser at forbin.com  Mon Jan 25 05:24:36 1999
From: fraser at forbin.com (Jennifer and Brock Fraser)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:24:36 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32739.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



> By US law copying, modifying, and reselling code is a Federal crime.
>Several states also have anti-hacking and anti-piracy laws that cover
>this.
>
> Hypertech and others get away with their practices because the OEMs
>have chosen, for whatever reasons, not to take them to court.  There
>aren't any Copyright Police looking around for violations; GM or Ford or
>whoever has to set the ball rolling.
>
> Just because Hypertech and others are not being prosecuted doesn't make
>what they're doing legal - all any OEM would have to do is file, and it
>would an open-and-shut rubber stamp trial.  There are ample precedents
>on the subject of piracy of ROM code - IBM, Apple, and Phoenix BIOS all
>filed suit against code pirates and won.
>
> I've discussed this subject with several chip vendors, who all seem to
>engage in the same kind of wishful thinking as Hypertech.

Interesting viewpoint.  I'm not still in contact with the Hypertech owner,
so I can't confirm further, but I'm just repeating what he told me a few
years ago when I asked these very same questions.

Who knows, maybe he's paying the lawyer $250 an hour just to tell him what
he WANTS to hear.  haha  Considering the millions he has invested in the
business, I'd say that he has a pretty good handle on what his liability is.

I don't have any more confirmation, but this was a revisited issue when the
Power Programmers were designed for the reprogrammable applications...

Maybe the IBM, Apple, and Phoenix "hacking" examples are issues of lost
revenues?  GM doesn't lose any business when Hypertech sells a chip, and
maybe that's the key destinction.

I think we are digressing a bit from the original question.  The point is,
legal or not, if Hypertech can stay open for business for 12+ years, it's
safe to assume that the average Joe can post binary data and interpretations
on his web site.



>The bigger question on copying and modifying the OEM code is who out
>here does emissions testing on the final results?  The OEM's spend huge
>$$$ on testing and I suspect are on the hook for any changes that effect
>emissions.  Do any aftermarket tuners who make PROM changes recertify
>the cars or even test for emissions?

Hypertech does annual "spot checks" at certified labs covering a sampling of
the offered applications.  CARB (and EPA follows along) reviews the results
(an A-B-A  test) and also checks the other applications to make sure that
they are of the same "flavor".  Assuming all the applications follow the
same general patterns for the parameters that are modified, all the
applications are grandfathered in under one CARB E.O. number.  Exceptions
(such as the GM and Ford Diesels) are tested individually.  This makes all
Hypertech products legal for sale in both the Federal and California markets
even though not every chip (far from it) has been tested.  I'm not sure if
other non-chip companies play by the same rules or not -- camshafts, for
instance.  I don't think the other "chip" companies (at least the ones
servicing domestic cars and trucks- don't know about Dinan and Autothority,
etc...) are quite as compliant.




From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Mon Jan 25 06:47:30 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:47:30 -0500
Subject: Some more Holden Memcals
Message-ID: <mailman.32740.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi All,

I've just uploaded the 'corrected' Bin's from some more Holden stuff.

BWFU0810.BIN is from a 95/96 5L V8 Auto, using #16176424 PCM
BWCS9976.BIN is from a 94 Police car, possible PCM is #16195699 (The PCM
lists on the case a BKDA Memcal, but it is a Police PCM!!).

These 2 replace the incorrect versions of these I uploaded the otherday, the
checksum works for these so I assume we are on a winner.

Regards

Ross Myers



From synchris at ricochet.net  Mon Jan 25 07:21:38 1999
From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:21:38 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32741.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I'm not a lawyer either, but this is what I recall from my days as part
of a small software house.

At 02:05 PM 1/24/99 -0800, Orin Eman wrote:

>As far as copyright is concerned, my guess (IANAL etc.) is that
>it is technically illegal to sell a chip containing modified GM
>code - it would be a derivative work.  Just changing a few bytes
>or tables isn't sufficient...

Greg says 10% changed, the number I recall is 25%, but this had
been devised to cover books, movies, etc. I'm not sure how it tested
out in the courts for binary code, especially as opposed to source
code.

A lot of desktop software is "licensed" to you and part of the license
is an agreement that you won't reverse engineer it, etc. I'm not sure
how enforcable this is, but I am sure that Microsoft has more money
than you do (unless maybe Ross Perot is on this list, in which case
I apologize) and IMHO that's mostly all that matters - how much court
time can you afford?

>However, GM would be hard pressed to prove any actual damages.  After
>all, you need their hardware to run the code!

They don't have to prove any damages at all, IIRC. $25,000 per
instance of violation was the number I recall. Giving the software
away I think counts as selling it for $0, so you're still pinched.

OTOH with ECU PROMs, reverse engineering it should be ok unless it says
somewhere in the pile of papers you sign that it's not. (Which I doubt.)
Posting info you got from reverse engineering I *think* is ok, as
long as you're not posting big chunks of the original binary too.
Think of it as literary criticism, there's a de facto tradition of
"fair use" of small snippets of the original work. But info you got
from reverse engineering ("change $3acc from $00 to $ff to disable
blah blah blah") should be fine, as long as you aren't under a non-
disclosure agreement from GM or anything like that.

Anyway this is interesting enough for me to send to one of my lawyers
and seek a real answer.

   Chris C.



From synchris at ricochet.net  Mon Jan 25 08:21:50 1999
From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 03:21:50 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32742.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi again,

At 08:46 PM 1/21/99 -0600, Tom Sharpe wrote:

>Boy I started something.   I want to add IMHO that vaporization helps
>economy/efficiency under cruse conditions but decreases effective intake
>charge at WOT. Atomization helps cruse and WOT  conditions as well as not
>hindering WOT.    Tom

Ok, first I agree with all of this. Designing for big WOT power, *and*
for low BSFC at cruise is not the easiest combination in the world.

One thing that might work would be to have a 2 or 4 injector TBI setup,
with those injectors sized to get you up to maybe 25% of max power,
and relatively huge TPI injectors in each port. This way you can have
really big TPI injectors without worrying about idle quality. And, as
an added bonus, you probably will get a higher % of the fuel from the
TBI injectors to evaporate, which is probably a *good* thing for BSFC
at cruise. (Actually I don't know how the pumping work vs. compression
work numbers pan out... Greg?)


As for resolution of various ECU subsystems, this is a subject near
and dear to my heart. So I'll try to keep it short from boring y'all!
(Plus I don't have hard numbers to show, yet.)

Bruce wrote:

>But, but, what about the filtering?.  Doesn't that fly in the  face
>of needing absolutely accurate MAP sensing?.
> **Notice the question mark, I'm asking.
>  This "filtering" is a funny animal, in so far as using larger ID/
>loner sensor lines can make a vast difference on some
>applications, and I've always had better response with smaller
>shorter lines.

MAP filtering is an important issue IMHO, and I'm curious how OEs
handle it. The MAP signal spectrum has strong components based on
the RPM, which can vary over a 10:1 range, and components based on
the fixed lengths of intake elements. (And variable intakes, in
some cars.) As far as I'm concerned you need dynamic filtering,
which changes with RPM, if you want good throttle response over
a wide range. (The possible exception being a good accelerator
pump algorithm, which would essentially use the TPS to fill in
the data you miss by over-filtering the MAP signal.)

As far as the whole turndown ratio issue, are OE apps using a
regulated injector drive voltage (or current-sensing drive
circuits, better still), or is there still a low-battery injector
pulse width correction? (As with some really old stuff.) One more
good reason to go to peak and hold, IMHO, is that you can use a
5-6v regulated supply, which should be doable under almost all
battery conditions, and current-sense drivers which automatically
compensate for the change in injector resistance with temperature.
If you're trying to get accurate, short pulses from big injectors,
you need all the hardware assist you can get. (Note this mainly
applies to boosted engines which have a wider dynamic power range.
But boosted engines are mostly what interest me.)

...

Someone asked a bit ago about low-pressure sensors. I'm gonna come
off sounding like a damn Motorola ad here, but I really like their
pressure sensors. They have a couple designed specifically as MAP
sensors, and some others in lower and higher pressure ranges. The
ones I use are mostly temperature-compensated, and have a
conditioned 0-5v output. The bandwidth is reasonably high, though
you can get better accuracy if you filter it down some. (They don't
spec it as -3dB bandwidth, they spec it as 1msec response time from
10%-90% given a full-scale pressure pulse. I'm too tired to do the
math but think 500Hz or more.) Accuracy is conservatively spec'ed
at ~1%-1.5%, you can do better if you're willing to limit the
temperature extremes, filter down to lower bandwith, and do some
math on the output signal. (Also the lower pressure range units
have more error.) Not instrument-grade but damn good. More
importantly short term drift is low. Best of all they're cheap,
the last set of 2.5 bar absolute units I got were ~$16 each in
onesies. Anyways sorry for sounding like a damn ad, I don't get
a kickback, honest! I just like the damn things.

http://mot-sps.com/senseon/pressure.html


   Whew, ok, hope this interests someone.
   Chris C.



From wmcdonal at hutch.com.au  Mon Jan 25 09:11:30 1999
From: wmcdonal at hutch.com.au (Wayne Macdonald)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 04:11:30 -0500
Subject: dual spray injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32743.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


------ =_NextPart_000_01BE48A6.B9A56D70
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sagem have injectors with angled spray from two points.
the number on the injectors is 01D004A these are in injected Triumph motorcycles. I am not sure what the flow rate is.

Wayne.

----------
From: 	Ord Millar
Sent: 	Saturday, January 23, 1999 2:06 AM
To: 	Diy_Efi (E-mail)
Subject: 	dual spray injectors

Hi - I am just returning to the list; I was previously a lurker here but other interests got in the way for a while.

Does anyone know where I can find some injectors that spray two cones?
Alternately, how about an injector where the spray is at a small (15 degree) angle relative to the body?
Or, in a perfect world, one that does both?  (Two cones, at an angle).
Worst case, I can try to work with some sort of deflector.

I am working on a project to deliver fuel at both valves on a multi-valve head.

Thanks,

Ord



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From geoffsue at one.net.au  Mon Jan 25 10:44:26 1999
From: geoffsue at one.net.au (Geoff Richards)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:44:26 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32744.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



----------
<snip>
> According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
> accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
> reduces performance. 

How to remove this carbon ?
Possible with the myriad of 'carbon blast' type of miracle cures,
you know the cans of cleaners etc,run 'em through the engine
while running or pull the heads?
Geoff


From db at vianet.net.au  Mon Jan 25 11:51:43 1999
From: db at vianet.net.au (Darryn Watson)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 06:51:43 -0500
Subject: Resolution.
Message-ID: <mailman.32745.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>There are plenty of instrument grade pressure transducers available,
>Ashcroft, for one, with 0.25% full scale accuracy and better repeatability
>than that,  All you gotta do is know which counter to ask for them at, and
>be prepared to pay for them. Your choice of 0-5V, 0-10V, or 4-20 ma output
>signal. 4-20 ma is most popular signal output for industrial
>instrumentation because of wiring open/short failures being so easily
>detected with it.
Also because its not affected  the length of the wiring between sensor
and whatever its hooked into, no volt drop to worry about

Darryn



From ECMnut at aol.com  Mon Jan 25 11:55:26 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 06:55:26 -0500
Subject: Delco calibration
Message-ID: <mailman.32746.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/24/99 11:40:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tmatthew at stny.lrun.com writes:

> Can anyone look up the calibration APYU out of an 89 Formula 350? I'm
>  wondering if it's current, and does anyone have a PN so I could order
>  another CALPAC from GM? Anyone know what the 89 305 5 speed CALPAC GM part
Tom,
I can't find it in the OTC book...  What VIN code is the Firebird?
Mike V


From John.Andrian at usa.net  Mon Jan 25 12:08:09 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:08:09 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question
Message-ID: <mailman.32747.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Tom Sharpe wrote:
> 
> (off list)
> 
> John Andrianakis wrote:
> 
> > Most of the time I deal with Magneti Marelli ecus and some Weber.
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> I'm looking for a Magneti Marelli ECU to replace (upgrade) the one used in
> my Edelbrock ProFlow and another to scavange parts from. It uses an HC11 w/
> 32K rom and 4 seq. injector drivers. I would like to find one with an HC12,
> HC16, or 68332 and 8 injector outputs.
> 
> Any ideas where I can find such an animal(s), ie. what cars use them?
> 
> Thanks in advance.  Tom Sharpe
Unfortunately I havent come up a Magneti Marelli ecu with 8 injector
outputs since 8cylinder cars are very rare in Greece(unreasonably high
taxes on anything over 2000cc). I will look for one with the processors
you specify and I will let you know.
John Andrianakis.



From GoAPE at tiac.net  Mon Jan 25 13:32:35 1999
From: GoAPE at tiac.net (Auburn Performance Equipment)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:32:35 -0500
Subject: SpeedBrain 
Message-ID: <mailman.32748.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:44:25 -0500
Subject: Re: SpeedBrain

I checked out the site, does the Speed Brain come with the sensors 
and
wiring harness?

No, none are needed since we plug into the stock harness, using 
the ford conenctor adn use all the stock sensors already in place.

> You state that it is an additional cost for a couple of
the other systems listed in the comparison. Also when will a similar
product be available for GM applications?

We are planning them out now.

Thanks,

Matt


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AUBURN PERFORMANCE EQUIPMENT 
Home of the world's fastest 4.6 Cobra!
1998 Winner 160mph class Big Bend Classic roadrace, Ft Stockton, TX
1998 Winner 160mph class Gamblers Run roadrace, Elko, NV
1998 Winner 165mph class Silverstate Classic roadrace, Ely, NV

We just don't sell and install parts, we make them perform.

ORDER LINE   1-508-752-7683  
24 hr FAX LINE (508)752-5269   TECH LINE (508)797-9728
WEBSITE & ON-LINE CATALOG: http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Mon Jan 25 13:37:30 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:37:30 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32749.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> As far as copyright is concerned, my guess (IANAL etc.) is that it is
-> technically illegal to sell a chip containing modified GM code - it
-> would be a derivative work.  Just changing a few bytes or tables
-> isn't sufficient...
->
-> However, GM would be hard pressed to prove any actual damages.  After
-> all, you need their hardware to run the code!

 They don't have to prove damages for copyright violation.  All they
have to do is prove you copied some nontrivial portion of their code.

 Under the new copyright laws, they don't even have to have a copyright
notice in the code in order to press a case.
                                                                          


From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Mon Jan 25 13:37:47 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:37:47 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32750.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> Camaro and Firebird - arguably the main carlines that involved any
-> aftermarket computer "chipping" at all. I think more Trans-Am buyers
-> will tweak their computers than, say, Park Avenue owners.

 Truck chips are very popular.  More trucks out there than Camaros, too.


-> Chip modifications have been around for quite some time, since the
-> mid-80s at least and GM apparently showed no interest in all of that
-> time period to do anything about "hacked" PROMs. I should ask myself
-> "Why would they (or any carmaker for that matter?) all of a sudden
-> express an interest to stop hobby-hackers?"

 Same reason they no longer use socketed PROMs - the Fed.  All it would
take would be a memo from the EPA and the lawyers would start deciding
which vendors to make 'examples' of.

==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
     


From mgr at mgrcorp.com  Mon Jan 25 13:47:34 1999
From: mgr at mgrcorp.com (Gwyn Reedy)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:47:34 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
Message-ID: <mailman.32751.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Coupla questions.

Does any aftermarket vendor provide custom stall ratios on the variable
pitch converters?

What mechanism is used to control the pitch switch? Could that be adapted to
allow control of the clutch in a locking converter?

Gwyn Reedy
Brandon, Florida
mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Greg
> Hermann
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:50 PM
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
>
>
>
> >
> >Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter should be
> >connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
> >control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
> >points dizzy.
>
> Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know of
> any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
> idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
> let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
>
> Regards, Greg
> >
> >Shannen
>
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 25 14:00:52 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:00:52 -0500
Subject: Resolution.
Message-ID: <mailman.32752.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>But, but, what about the filtering?.  Doesn't that fly in the  face
>of needing absolutely accurate MAP sensing?.
>  **Notice the question mark, I'm asking.
>  This "filtering" is a funny animal, in so far as using larger ID/
>loner sensor lines can make a vast difference on some
>applications, and I've always had better response with smaller
>shorter lines.
>Bruce

There are strong fluctuations in MAP, size and frequency of fluctuations
depends on design of motor. Ecu needs an average value to perform its fuel
rate calcs.

Sooo--you can filter between the motor and the sensor or between the sensor
and the A/D converter or digitally after the A/D converter. (Or any
combination you want of these.) If you do it on an analogue electrical
basis between the sensor and the A/D converter, you would use an R/C
network--and the math of different size/length tubes between the  motor and
the sensor,  for doing it there, is virtually identical to that of an R/C
network should you choose to do it electrically. All kinds of ways to
accomplish the job digitally, if you choose to do it that way (look at
knock sensors).

If your sensor's response rate is not up to the frequency of the MAP
fluctuations from the engine, you will HAVE to use some mechanical
(connecting tube variations) filtering to avoid getting garbage output from
the sensor.

Regards, Greg
>
> more accurate input
>>data, and that the auto mfgrs are not bloody likely to spend the money
>>required to be any more accurate than they need to be in order to meet
>>emissions regs with an average HP engine!!
>>
>>Real questions here are :"How many bits wide are the A/D converters in the
>>ecu?" and "How many mapping points does the load/rpm matrix need to
>>contain?" and "How many bits wide is the fuel rate calculation (and tables)
>>in the ecu?" and ""What is the minimum time increment to injector pw which
>>the ecu will implement?" and "How many bits wide does everything need to be
>>in order to obtain the desired level of turndown to give your high HP
>>engine decent street manners?"
>>
>>Staging injectors, and rising rate fuel pressure control are certainly a
>>help, particularly if there are fuel rail pressure and temp inputs to the
>>ecu for fuel rate corrections on the fly!
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>




From rauscher at icst.com  Mon Jan 25 14:01:16 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:01:16 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32753.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



To trigger a 555 directly from the ESC module, do this:

    a) Run 555 from 12v car power (same for ESC module)
    b) Place a 10K ohm resister from pin 2 (trig) of the 555 to +12v
    c) Output of ESC through a .01uf disc capacitor to
        pin 2 of the 555.

This in effect, causes a short low going pulse on the trigger input of
the 555 whenever the ESC output goes low. The ESC output normally
sits at ~10volts, and pulses low for +-10-30msec depending upon the
severity of the knock.

Then as Bruce states below, run the 555 pulse duration long enough that
you can see the LED light. Or, place a small piezo beeper on the 555
output for an audio indication. (Depending on the type of piezo, you may
need another 555 enabled from the first, to create the tone freq).


BobR.

Who now has a 305 truck ESC module on the bench, trying to find
out the how/what/why/where of this unit.


> -----Original Message-----
>rom: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
>o: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>ate: Friday, January 22, 1999 7:36 PM
>ubject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
>
>If your running a ESC Module, they have a diagram for a DIY one at the GN
>Ttype
>site,  or just us a 339/any comparator to the input of the KS to the ecm,
>have
>it trigger a 555 as a monstable for a sec., and use it's output for a LED,
>relay
>etc..   Some of the GN Ttype vendors (ie ATR, I think) have an animal for
>sale.
>   If your car doesn't have a ks then buy a matching ESC Module, and
>matching knock sensor (well for gm's anyway).  and wire it up
>I think the bias voltage from the esc to the ecm is 7v.  Set up the
>comparator for 6, and then just a "filtered""real" knock will trigger it.
>  I have played mix, and match with them, and while there is some
>difference for those having trouble reading plugs, any thing is better
>than nothing.  Like I'm currently using a v-8 ks with a 231 ESC Module
>and for my combination it's perfect.
>Bruce

--





From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Mon Jan 25 14:09:52 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:09:52 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32754.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Dave Williams wrote:
> 
> -> I can tell you (as a past Hypertech employee) that copying the stock
> -> binary, making changes, and then selling it as your own work is NOT
> -> illegal.  This has been a legal  issue of long debate.  Once the
> -> binary is modified, it is no longer copyrighted material.  Re-selling
> -> of non-modified binaries IS illegal, however.
> 
>  By US law copying, modifying, and reselling code is a Federal crime.
> Several states also have anti-hacking and anti-piracy laws that cover
> this.
> 
>  Hypertech and others get away with their practices because the OEMs
> have chosen, for whatever reasons, not to take them to court.  There
> aren't any Copyright Police looking around for violations; GM or Ford or
> whoever has to set the ball rolling.
> 
>  Just because Hypertech and others are not being prosecuted doesn't make
> what they're doing legal - all any OEM would have to do is file, and it
> would an open-and-shut rubber stamp trial.  There are ample precedents
> on the subject of piracy of ROM code - IBM, Apple, and Phoenix BIOS all
> filed suit against code pirates and won.
> 
>  I've discussed this subject with several chip vendors, who all seem to
> engage in the same kind of wishful thinking as Hypertech.
> 
>  Personally, I don't think the chip vendors are hurting anyone, and by
> some lights they might even be doing the OEMs a favor.  But the law says
> what the chip vendors are doing is unlawful and actionable, and
> pretending it isn't is merely self delusion.
> 
> ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
> I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
> my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
> =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
> 
What you buy when you buy something with code in it is a licence to use
that code on the one device it is installed in. Some code suppliers
(read pogrammers) specifically prohibit dissassembly of their code for
ANY purpose.
Now, IF you have a licence to use the code on your ECU / car, you have a
licence to use it. If you modify it, as opposed to write new code (using
none of the original), you are still bound by that licence - one ECU.
You cannot sell the modified code. You cannot use it on another ECU.
However, if someone else has an ecu with licenced code, charging to
modify that licenced code for them could be construed as legal -
assuming there was no prohibition on dissassembling that code.
The only situation that allows reselling code is if you actually buy the
rights to the program and are supplied by the programmer with source
code. You then OWN the code, not just a licence to use the code. Even in
these situations, sometimes you are given a limited licence to
distribute the code, or to use it in your own product. For instance,
true type fonts are licenced to word processor programmers for inclusion
in there programs - and MS Windows is OEM licenced to comanies like IBM
and Compaq for distribution ONLY with their systems. They cannot sell a
copy to you if you own only a Gateway computer, for instance.


From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 25 14:12:06 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:12:06 -0500
Subject: SpeedBrain 
Message-ID: <mailman.32755.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
Subject: Re: SpeedBrain

I, for one would find it interesting, if there was a full demo online,
to see what/how things can be edited.  If there is, sorry, I missed
it.  
Bruce

I checked out the site, does the Speed Brain come with the sensors 
and
wiring harness?

No, none are needed since we plug into the stock harness, using 
the ford conenctor adn use all the stock sensors already in place.
> You state that it is an additional cost for a couple of
the other systems listed in the comparison. Also when will a similar
product be available for GM applications?
We are planning them out now.
Thanks,
Matt




From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 25 14:27:17 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:27:17 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32756.1369893295.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: rauscher at icst.com <rauscher at icst.com>
To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance

At one time I had a dozen or so esc on the bench, what exactly do you need
to know?.
In crash testing them, using a 555 to generate the KS they all seemed to
listen
to 2 frequencies.
If you want I think I got the diagrams for the 555s to generate the KS
signals.
The 555 generators kinda overwhelm the ESC so the results aren't terribly
accurate, if your tuning them.
Bruce


>To trigger a 555 directly from the ESC module, do this:
>    a) Run 555 from 12v car power (same for ESC module)
>    b) Place a 10K ohm resister from pin 2 (trig) of the 555 to +12v
>    c) Output of ESC through a .01uf disc capacitor to
>        pin 2 of the 555.
>This in effect, causes a short low going pulse on the trigger input of
>the 555 whenever the ESC output goes low. The ESC output normally
>sits at ~10volts, and pulses low for +-10-30msec depending upon the
>severity of the knock.
>Then as Bruce states below, run the 555 pulse duration long enough that
>you can see the LED light. Or, place a small piezo beeper on the 555
>output for an audio indication. (Depending on the type of piezo, you may
>need another 555 enabled from the first, to create the tone freq).
>BobR.
>Who now has a 305 truck ESC module on the bench, trying to find
>out the how/what/why/where of this unit.
>ubject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
>>If your running a ESC Module, they have a diagram for a DIY one at the GN
>>Ttype
>>site,  or just us a 339/any comparator to the input of the KS to the ecm,
>>have
>>it trigger a 555 as a monstable for a sec., and use it's output for a LED,
>>relay
>>etc..   Some of the GN Ttype vendors (ie ATR, I think) have an animal for
>>sale.
>>   If your car doesn't have a ks then buy a matching ESC Module, and
>>matching knock sensor (well for gm's anyway).  and wire it up
>>I think the bias voltage from the esc to the ecm is 7v.  Set up the
>>comparator for 6, and then just a "filtered""real" knock will trigger it.
>>  I have played mix, and match with them, and while there is some
>>difference for those having trouble reading plugs, any thing is better
>>than nothing.  Like I'm currently using a v-8 ks with a 231 ESC Module
>>and for my combination it's perfect.
>>Bruce




From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 25 14:42:29 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:42:29 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32757.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>
>One thing that might work would be to have a 2 or 4 injector TBI setup,
>with those injectors sized to get you up to maybe 25% of max power,
>and relatively huge TPI injectors in each port. This way you can have
>really big TPI injectors without worrying about idle quality. And, as
>an added bonus, you probably will get a higher % of the fuel from the
>TBI injectors to evaporate, which is probably a *good* thing for BSFC
>at cruise. (Actually I don't know how the pumping work vs. compression
>work numbers pan out... Greg?)
>
Before I got into the idea of air boosted, staged TPI injectors, I wuz
considering staging a Barry Grant VFI unit (primary) with big TPI secondary
injectors!! :-)
>

>
>Someone asked a bit ago about low-pressure sensors. I'm gonna come
>off sounding like a damn Motorola ad here, but I really like their
>pressure sensors. They have a couple designed specifically as MAP
>sensors, and some others in lower and higher pressure ranges. The
>ones I use are mostly temperature-compensated, and have a
>conditioned 0-5v output. The bandwidth is reasonably high, though
>you can get better accuracy if you filter it down some. (They don't
>spec it as -3dB bandwidth, they spec it as 1msec response time from
>10%-90% given a full-scale pressure pulse. I'm too tired to do the
>math but think 500Hz or more.) Accuracy is conservatively spec'ed
>at ~1%-1.5%, you can do better if you're willing to limit the
>temperature extremes, filter down to lower bandwith, and do some
>math on the output signal. (Also the lower pressure range units
>have more error.) Not instrument-grade but damn good. More
>importantly short term drift is low. Best of all they're cheap,
>the last set of 2.5 bar absolute units I got were ~$16 each in
>onesies. Anyways sorry for sounding like a damn ad, I don't get
>a kickback, honest! I just like the damn things.
>
>http://mot-sps.com/senseon/pressure.html

These sound awfully good for less than 10% of the cost of Ashcroft, Dwyer,
etc. instrument grade pressure transducers!!

Regards, Greg
>
>
>   Whew, ok, hope this interests someone.
>   Chris C.




From rauscher at icst.com  Mon Jan 25 15:29:28 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:29:28 -0500
Subject: Ramblings on P/B resricters
Message-ID: <mailman.32758.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Map sensors and power brake restricter's. In the prog 101 and
tunetips documents, Bruce waxed eloquently about the need to
restrict the vacuum line to the power brake booster. This is to
prevent a sudden change in vacuum due to applying the brakes from
affecting the MAP output.

In my quest of a DYI OEM system, I've come across some OEM
components that serve this purpose.

The first is a canister that connects inline with the P/B vacuum
line. They are typically black plastic, ~1.5" in dia, ~ 3.5" in
overall length. They have 3/8" barbed hose ends, one straight, the
other at 90 deg.

I've seen them on a lot of GM cars and trucks, GM must have bought
a tanker boat-load of these. You can find them inline of the P/B
hose on Astro's & full size vans, along with Buick and other GM
cars. I've even seen them at Pep-Boys for $8US as a 'P/B booster
filter', on the 'Help' rack.


For a cleaner installation, GM has updated the P/B booster check
valve. This is the unit that plugs directly into the P/B booster,
that prevents the loss of vacuum whenever the engine is off.

On a '92 Camaro, 3.1L V6, the check valve is also the restricter.
It also appears to be more restrictive than the canister. This unit
fits directly into the P/B booster of older GM's, say a first gen
Firebird booster.

The vacuum line fitting is larger thou, being 15/32" as opposed to
the 3/8" that is used on the older cars (minor).

HTH

BobR.

Who now has all sensors mounted, distributor and coil in place,
4bbl to TBI adapter built, and is getting ready to attack the
firewall with a hole saw.

--




From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Mon Jan 25 15:47:03 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:47:03 -0500
Subject: Chip pack
Message-ID: <mailman.32759.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I just got my 90 vette ecm in the mail and pulled out the chip.  Inside
the pack there is a home made looking monster on top of two smaller
chips(i dont know what the little chips are yet as I dont have the
courage to touch the monster)  Anyway what is it for?  Also does anyone
know the speed of the rom chip?  I found a 27c256- 150 is this ok.(i'd
leave the original alone)
Thanks, 
Max


From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 25 16:08:20 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:08:20 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32760.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Geoff Richards wrote:
> 
> ----------
> <snip>
> > According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
> > accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
> > reduces performance.
> 
> How to remove this carbon ?
> Possible with the myriad of 'carbon blast' type of miracle cures,
> you know the cans of cleaners etc,run 'em through the engine
> while running or pull the heads?
> Geoff
Apparently, walnut shell blasting.  GM claims that no chemical works,
but I would be interested in seeing the results from properly applied
Top Engine Cleaner.  A mechanic I worked with left some in a cylinder
on night while the head was out for reconditioning, and the piston
wiped clean like new in the morning.

Shannen



From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 25 16:15:05 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:15:05 -0500
Subject: EFI questions
Message-ID: <mailman.32761.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

dzorde wrote:
> 
<snip>
> Another question, because the system is speed density, when you back of the
> accelerator the engine unloads and picks fuel delivery for its new suited
> map point (lower load range) causing the O2 to read almost 0V (very lean).
> Is this normal for a speed density system ?  It seems correct to me as the
> injection is based on looking up a base value in the map, but it doesn't
> seem very healthy for the engine to lean of everytime you back of.  I have
> been thinking this could be why I have white tailpipes as the car is
> spending most of its time on and off the gas when racing.
> 
> Lots of questions, but this one has me puzzled.
> 
> rgds
> 
> Dan     dzorde at soanar.com.au
GM stuff leans out during decel and high rpm/no load.  It's not as
noticeable in the gas stuff, but the EFI diesels actually seem to shut
down during decel.  It's one way to help fuel economy.
Shannen



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Mon Jan 25 16:35:05 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:35:05 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32762.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

One of Garfield's last posts to the list was a summary of a conversation
he had with his attorney and a patent attorney about reverse
engineering.  It's too long to reproduce here, but it's in the archives
right here:

http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/archive/archive_num_100;lines=58166-58305

Bottom line is that the patent/copyright system is designed to protect
the inventions, while allowing others access to them, and allowing these
others to incrementally improve them.  While having their improvements
also protected.  

--steve

Mike wrote:
> 
> I know this is a stupid question and it's not directly EFI-related, but can
> someone educate me on the legalities, specifically, copyrights and
> software/firmware,  associated with reading OEM PROMs, "reverse engineering"
> them and even on "publishing" findings on, say, one's web page? Does reading
> the PROM not constitute making a copy of the firmware? Is this automatically
> "illegal"?


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Mon Jan 25 16:40:05 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:40:05 -0500
Subject: Chip pack
Message-ID: <mailman.32763.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Guenther,Max wrote:

> 
> I just got my 90 vette ecm in the mail and pulled out the chip.  Inside
> the pack there is a home made looking monster on top of two smaller
> chips(i dont know what the little chips are yet as I dont have the
> courage to touch the monster)  Anyway what is it for?  Also does anyone
> know the speed of the rom chip?  I found a 27c256- 150 is this ok.(i'd
> leave the original alone)
> Thanks, 
> Max
> 
I believe the other chip (the one that looks custom) is the esc
module (otherwise known as the knock sensor module/filter).  If you
mean by home made looking monster the blue container with the two
chips in it and a 68? pin IDC connector on the bottom (connector like
a ribbon cable from a IDE/SCSI internal disk drive, with 68 pins) that
that is what the two chips.   The other chip is the ROM of course.  I
have a connector rigged to be able to plug the monster (or at least
the pins that matter) into a prom programmer without removing it from
the set.   I will probably just take the top of the container off to
erase it, and program it in the containter.   I have read the chips ou
using this setup.


					Roger



From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 25 16:41:20 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:41:20 -0500
Subject: Delco calibration
Message-ID: <mailman.32764.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thomas Matthews wrote:
> 
> Can anyone look up the calibration APYU out of an 89 Formula 350? I'm

Most current version of APYU/3516 (as of June-ish 1998) is AUJM/3580
part no 16150500.  This fits 350, fed emissions, 700R4, 3.27 rear
gear, with air.  I don't find any reason why the new calibration was
issued.

> wondering if it's current, and does anyone have a PN so I could order
> another CALPAC from GM? Anyone know what the 89 305 5 speed CALPAC GM part
> number is?
> TIA,
> Tom
1989 Firebird w/ 305 pfi, 5spd, fed emissions, A/C, and 3.08 rear
ratio.  Part no. 16133478 cal. code APYX/3526
Have fun.
Shannen



From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 25 17:01:10 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:01:10 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
Message-ID: <mailman.32765.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> 
> Coupla questions.
> 
> Does any aftermarket vendor provide custom stall ratios on the variable
> pitch converters?
> 
At one time Kenne Bell did.  Looks like rebuilt/strengthened factory
converters, two styles.  1800/2600 rpm, and 1600/2400 rpm stall
speeds.
Kenne Bell, 10743 Bell Court, Rancho Cucamonga, California 91730;
(909) 941-6646.

> What mechanism is used to control the pitch switch? Could that be adapted to
> allow control of the clutch in a locking converter?
> 
Old stuff, used in 65-67 Buick and Olds.  Mechanical switches close
circuit, switches to high stall at idle, and at 70%+ throttle
opening.  Electrically, it's opposite the TCC.  Original switches and
linkage are tough to locate, might as well use a manual switch.

> Gwyn Reedy
> Brandon, Florida
> mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Greg
> > Hermann
> > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:50 PM
> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter should be
> > >connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
> > >control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
> > >points dizzy.
> >
> > Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know of
> > any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
> > idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
> > let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
> >
> > Regards, Greg
> > >
> > >Shannen
> >
> >



From spoonie at deltanet.com  Mon Jan 25 17:07:21 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:07:21 -0500
Subject: Delco calibration
Message-ID: <mailman.32766.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Your chip is GM p/n 16133476, for 89 F body L98 MD8 xmission, GW6 final
drive (3.27:1), ECM P/N 1227165

Superseeded by AUJM p/n 16150500

Ward

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Thomas
> Matthews
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 8:36 PM
> To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Delco calibration
>
>
> Can anyone look up the calibration APYU out of an 89 Formula 350? I'm
> wondering if it's current, and does anyone have a PN so I could order
> another CALPAC from GM? Anyone know what the 89 305 5 speed CALPAC GM part
> number is?
> TIA,
> Tom
>



From aris at exmail.panafon.gr  Mon Jan 25 17:11:10 1999
From: aris at exmail.panafon.gr (HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:11:10 -0500
Subject: Crane Cams regular telephone number
Message-ID: <mailman.32767.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Could one PLEASE provide me with a NON 800 i.e. regular telephone number
of Crane Cams (not distributor) so I can call them from Europe. All I
have is a fax number and an 888 telephone number which I cannot use from
Europe.

Thanks a lot in advance

Aris


From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Mon Jan 25 17:18:00 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:18:00 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32768.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I haven't tried this setup yet but see what you think of it. Since the KS is
a pizo device if a frequency is applied to it then vibrations
will be produced. If a plate was drilled and tapped for two KS and a signal
generator applied to one sensor and the ESC module connected to the other
one, I would guess you could very accurately map the range of a ESC. 
 
My .02$   Don  

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
> Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 7:32 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 7:36 PM
> Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
> 
> If your running a ESC Module, they have a diagram for a DIY one at the GN
> Ttype
> site,  or just us a 339/any comparator to the input of the KS to the ecm,
> have
> it trigger a 555 as a monstable for a sec., and use it's output for a LED,
> relay
> etc..   Some of the GN Ttype vendors (ie ATR, I think) have an animal for
> sale.
>    If your car doesn't have a ks then buy a matching ESC Module, and
> matching knock sensor (well for gm's anyway).  and wire it up
> I think the bias voltage from the esc to the ecm is 7v.  Set up the
> comparator for 6, and then just a "filtered""real" knock will trigger it.
>   I have played mix, and match with them, and while there is some
> difference for those having trouble reading plugs, any thing is better
> than nothing.  Like I'm currently using a v-8 ks with a 231 ESC Module
> and for my combination it's perfect.
> Bruce
> 
> 
> >Do you know of any ready made gizmo's to do that? What do they trigger
> off
> of,
> >the sensor or the ECU? If there isn't any such animal currently what
> would
> be
> >the recommended trigger for a homemade job, sensor or ECU?
> >Charles Brooks
> 


From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Mon Jan 25 17:18:14 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:18:14 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32769.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Shannen Durphey wrote:

> I've got a 455 Buick in my 79 monte.  When EFI conversion time comes,
> it includes an Edelbrock 4 bbl intake and 8 injectors.  It's been a
> long time plan, and the car is now dissappearing in NE road salt.  But
> when the time comes, that's what it gets.

    You mean the edelbrock efi system?  Or a regular wet edelbrock with 8 injectors
retrofitted? So far I think they only make the efi setup for 350 chevys, manifold
wont fit.

> Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter should be
> connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
> control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
> points dizzy.

    The previous owner put a switch pitch converter in my car, Firebird w/455
Pontiac.  Seems amazingly stupid to me, why the hell do I need to rev a Poncho
motor?

James Ballenger



From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 25 17:43:00 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:43:00 -0500
Subject: Non list-chasing ghosts.
Message-ID: <mailman.32770.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If there's anyone here who's run Racer Brown camshafts, esp. SB Chevy,
how did you like it/them?  Also, if anyone has an old spec card around
from an RB cam, please email the specs to me.  
Thanks,
Shannen



From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Mon Jan 25 18:07:09 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:07:09 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
Message-ID: <mailman.32771.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I know Poston Enterprises in Atmore Al. sold them as well.  Also may
want to check with TA Performance in Scottsdale AZ.  .  Poston had good
service, I usually buy from them.  Look in the back of muscle car mags
for a phone #, dont have one on me.  Kenne Bell seemed to be getting
more into the Turbo 6 market and left the old stuff behind(cant really
blame em'  not as many people hot roddin the 425 or 455 as there used to
be)

>----------
>From: 	Shannen Durphey[SMTP:shannen at grolen.com]
>Reply To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Sent: 	Monday, January 25, 1999 11:56 AM
>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
>
>Gwyn Reedy wrote:
>> 
>> Coupla questions.
>> 
>> Does any aftermarket vendor provide custom stall ratios on the variable
>> pitch converters?
>> 
>At one time Kenne Bell did.  Looks like rebuilt/strengthened factory
>converters, two styles.  1800/2600 rpm, and 1600/2400 rpm stall
>speeds.
>Kenne Bell, 10743 Bell Court, Rancho Cucamonga, California 91730;
>(909) 941-6646.
>
>> What mechanism is used to control the pitch switch? Could that be adapted
>>to
>> allow control of the clutch in a locking converter?
>> 
>Old stuff, used in 65-67 Buick and Olds.  Mechanical switches close
>circuit, switches to high stall at idle, and at 70%+ throttle
>opening.  Electrically, it's opposite the TCC.  Original switches and
>linkage are tough to locate, might as well use a manual switch.
>
>> Gwyn Reedy
>> Brandon, Florida
>> mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com
>> 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Greg
>> > Hermann
>> > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:50 PM
>> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> > Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter should be
>> > >connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
>> > >control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
>> > >points dizzy.
>> >
>> > Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know
>>of
>> > any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
>> > idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
>> > let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
>> >
>> > Regards, Greg
>> > >
>> > >Shannen
>> >
>> >
>
>


From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Mon Jan 25 18:09:30 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:09:30 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
Message-ID: <mailman.32772.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

As for control I just used a cheap micro switch.  looked cheesy but
works great! 

>----------
>From: 	Shannen Durphey[SMTP:shannen at grolen.com]
>Reply To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Sent: 	Monday, January 25, 1999 11:56 AM
>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
>
>Gwyn Reedy wrote:
>> 
>> Coupla questions.
>> 
>> Does any aftermarket vendor provide custom stall ratios on the variable
>> pitch converters?
>> 
>At one time Kenne Bell did.  Looks like rebuilt/strengthened factory
>converters, two styles.  1800/2600 rpm, and 1600/2400 rpm stall
>speeds.
>Kenne Bell, 10743 Bell Court, Rancho Cucamonga, California 91730;
>(909) 941-6646.
>
>> What mechanism is used to control the pitch switch? Could that be adapted
>>to
>> allow control of the clutch in a locking converter?
>> 
>Old stuff, used in 65-67 Buick and Olds.  Mechanical switches close
>circuit, switches to high stall at idle, and at 70%+ throttle
>opening.  Electrically, it's opposite the TCC.  Original switches and
>linkage are tough to locate, might as well use a manual switch.
>
>> Gwyn Reedy
>> Brandon, Florida
>> mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com
>> 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Greg
>> > Hermann
>> > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:50 PM
>> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> > Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter should be
>> > >connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
>> > >control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
>> > >points dizzy.
>> >
>> > Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know
>>of
>> > any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
>> > idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
>> > let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
>> >
>> > Regards, Greg
>> > >
>> > >Shannen
>> >
>> >
>
>


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Mon Jan 25 18:22:09 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:22:09 -0500
Subject: Wireing advice
Message-ID: <mailman.32773.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I don't know of anyone that would do that, but you can probably figure
it out yourself.  I've been through it and probably plenty of others
have also.  Post some schematics to the ftp site and ask away.

--steve

ChvyRs92 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Quick question. Does anyone know if there are any companies out there that
> would re-pin a bulkhead connector for one 92 chevy to another? I have the
> schematics for both cars, but I have only been able to figure out about 2/3 of
> it and I really can't say that I am absolutely certain that what I think I
> have is right?
> Thanks,
>         Jeff


From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 25 18:29:17 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:29:17 -0500
Subject: Chip pack
Message-ID: <mailman.32774.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Guenther,Max <Mguenther at ASCO.COM>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 11:06 AM
Subject: Chip pack

Yep, if it's got some clear goo type stuff on it that's part of the Knock
sensor
filtering.  If you do a search for syty  at their home page flip to chip
guide,
and you can see what if looks like to make sure it's oem
Bruce        The two smaller chips (plastic) is a netres, and the ceramic
one is
                more knock sensor stuff.  The eprom is soldered in........


>
>I just got my 90 vette ecm in the mail and pulled out the chip.  Inside
>the pack there is a home made looking monster on top of two smaller
>chips(i dont know what the little chips are yet as I dont have the
>courage to touch the monster)  Anyway what is it for?  Also does anyone
>know the speed of the rom chip?  I found a 27c256- 150 is this ok.(i'd
>leave the original alone)
>Thanks,
>Max
>



From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 25 18:32:55 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:32:55 -0500
Subject: Crane Cams regular telephone number
Message-ID: <mailman.32775.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Here is the phone and fax #.
(904) 258-6174, FAX: (904) 258-6167.
Here is where I found them.
http://www.cranecams.com/camshafts.htm

Shannen
HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 wrote:
> 
> Could one PLEASE provide me with a NON 800 i.e. regular telephone number
> of Crane Cams (not distributor) so I can call them from Europe. All I
> have is a fax number and an 888 telephone number which I cannot use from
> Europe.
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance
> 
> Aris



From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 25 18:36:21 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:36:21 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths/ overnight cleaning
Message-ID: <mailman.32776.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths


>Apparently, walnut shell blasting.  GM claims that no chemical works,
>but I would be interested in seeing the results from properly applied
>Top Engine Cleaner.

I used to use the stuff all the time with the overnight wait, worked 
great, for a while I used to wait two days and then change plugs.
The newer additive pakages they use around here greatly reduced
the need for this in the last 4-5 years.
Bruce



From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Jan 25 18:37:40 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:37:40 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32777.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

James Ballenger wrote:
> 
> Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> > I've got a 455 Buick in my 79 monte.  When EFI conversion time comes,
> > it includes an Edelbrock 4 bbl intake and 8 injectors.  It's been a
> > long time plan, and the car is now dissappearing in NE road salt.  But
> > when the time comes, that's what it gets.
> 
>     You mean the edelbrock efi system?  Or a regular wet edelbrock with 8 injectors
> retrofitted? So far I think they only make the efi setup for 350 chevys, manifold
> wont fit.
 
traditional carb'ed manifold, DIY converted.
> 
> > Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter should be
> > connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
> > control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
> > points dizzy.
> 
>     The previous owner put a switch pitch converter in my car, Firebird w/455
> Pontiac.  Seems amazingly stupid to me, why the hell do I need to rev a Poncho
> motor?
> 
Everyone's an expert until proven wrong.  If you decide to switch back
to stock pump and converter, I'll swap ya.
Shannen
> James Ballenger



From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 25 18:39:42 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:39:42 -0500
Subject: EFI questions
Message-ID: <mailman.32778.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Re: EFI questions


><snip>
>GM stuff leans out during decel and high rpm/no load.  It's not as
>noticeable in the gas stuff, but the EFI diesels actually seem to shut
>down during decel.  It's one way to help fuel economy.

Lots of Diacom+ recording show the injectors fully off during overrun.
Some back on by MPH, some by RPM or so it seems
Bruce

>Shannen
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Mon Jan 25 18:43:57 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:43:57 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32779.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com <Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com>
Subject: RE: FW: Electronic timing advance

Now that is clever, if working with a sensor with a pipe thread a hardware
store
black iron coupling would be perfect so they are in the same plane.
Bruce


>I haven't tried this setup yet but see what you think of it. Since the KS
is
>a pizo device if a frequency is applied to it then vibrations
>will be produced. If a plate was drilled and tapped for two KS and a signal
>generator applied to one sensor and the ESC module connected to the other
>one, I would guess you could very accurately map the range of a ESC.
>
>My .02$   Don
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
>> Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 7:32 PM
>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 7:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
>>
>> If your running a ESC Module, they have a diagram for a DIY one at the GN
>> Ttype
>> site,  or just us a 339/any comparator to the input of the KS to the ecm,
>> have
>> it trigger a 555 as a monstable for a sec., and use it's output for a
LED,
>> relay
>> etc..   Some of the GN Ttype vendors (ie ATR, I think) have an animal for
>> sale.
>>    If your car doesn't have a ks then buy a matching ESC Module, and
>> matching knock sensor (well for gm's anyway).  and wire it up
>> I think the bias voltage from the esc to the ecm is 7v.  Set up the
>> comparator for 6, and then just a "filtered""real" knock will trigger it.
>>   I have played mix, and match with them, and while there is some
>> difference for those having trouble reading plugs, any thing is better
>> than nothing.  Like I'm currently using a v-8 ks with a 231 ESC Module
>> and for my combination it's perfect.
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>> >Do you know of any ready made gizmo's to do that? What do they trigger
>> off
>> of,
>> >the sensor or the ECU? If there isn't any such animal currently what
>> would
>> be
>> >the recommended trigger for a homemade job, sensor or ECU?
>> >Charles Brooks
>>
>



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Mon Jan 25 18:53:24 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:53:24 -0500
Subject: Non list-chasing ghosts.
Message-ID: <mailman.32780.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> If there's anyone here who's run Racer Brown camshafts, esp. SB Chevy,
> how did you like it/them?  Also, if anyone has an old spec card around
> from an RB cam, please email the specs to me.
> Thanks,
> Shannen
On an old Valiant 273 4bbl it was a killer setup - fenderwell headers
helped, but it gave 383 and 440 'runners a run for their money.


From dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us  Mon Jan 25 18:54:07 1999
From: dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us (David Sagers)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:54:07 -0500
Subject: Crane Cams regular telephone number
Message-ID: <mailman.32781.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

CRANE CAMS INC..............................
(904) 252-1151 
530 FENTRESS BLVD 
DAYTONA BEACH FL 

http://www.cranecams.com/CraneCams.htm

You may want to book mark this address for the US West Dex Yellow pages directory

http://uswestdex.com/


>>> HADJIASLANIS ARIS     1260 800 <aris at exmail.panafon.gr> 01/25 10:06 AM >>>
Could one PLEASE provide me with a NON 800 i.e. regular telephone number
of Crane Cams (not distributor) so I can call them from Europe. All I
have is a fax number and an 888 telephone number which I cannot use from
Europe.

Thanks a lot in advance

Aris



From BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com  Mon Jan 25 19:32:41 1999
From: BoucherJC at lmtas.lmco.com (Joe Boucher)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:32:41 -0500
Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #59
Message-ID: <mailman.32782.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> From: HADJIASLANIS ARIS     1260 800 <aris at exmail.panafon.gr>
> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:06:00 +0200
> Subject: Crane Cams regular telephone number
>
> Could one PLEASE provide me with a NON 800 i.e. regular telephone number
> of Crane Cams (not distributor) so I can call them from Europe. All I
> have is a fax number and an 888 telephone number which I cannot use from
> Europe.
>
> Thanks a lot in advance
>
> Aris

Try (904)252-1151

Joe Boucher
'70 RS/SS Camaro  '81 TBI Suburban
^ (Crane equiped)    ^(Competition Cams equiped)



From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Mon Jan 25 19:36:16 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:36:16 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32783.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thank you Shannon!!
  I have all the material to make the unit!  One question: I assume that the timer was used on the pump, but, in any case, how long would you let the engine run for a 6 cylinder engine?  
  I guess I have another question: is it O2 safe?
  And another question: how big is the tank?

At 08:48 PM 1/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Clarence L.Snyder wrote:
>> 
>> Clarence Wood wrote:
>> >
>> >   Please give more information on "motor-vac".  How does it work?  How much does it cost?  Where do you get it?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Clarence
>> >
>> > At 06:40 PM 1/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> > (snip)>I don't know if it acts as a sponge or what, but the presence / absence
>> > >of carbon on the intake valves makes a SIGNIFICANT difference in
>> > >driveability. The 3.0 litre V6 in my aerostar had a BAD stumble off idle
>> > >when partly warmed up - to the point that on a cold day if I fired it up
>> > >and drove to the corner down the street it would invariably stall when
>> > >pulling away unless I floored it. Tried everything. Finally used a
>> > >"motor-vac" on it, which does an excellent job of decarbonizing - and
>> > >it's been perfect since.
>> > >
>> > >
>> It is a fuel system / engine cleaner unit that connects to the car and
>> draws a calibrated amount of fuel into  itself. You add a very
>> concentrated cleaner to the gas, which is then tun through the system,
>> from the filter forward under pressure. You run the engine through a
>> cycle with this beasy connected and the intake valves, cyls, lines, and
>> injectors are clean enough you couls eat off of them. I was a doubter
>> myself 'till my brother called me and said they needed a guinea pig for
>> the distributor to demonstrate the gizmo on - and knowing my AeroScare
>> was misbehaving, and he could not fix it.
>> Never know it was the same truck.
>> The unit is expensive - several thousand if I remember correctly, and my
>> brother has not bought one - yet. Apparently they are also "rotunda"
>> branded and sold to Ford dealers - and sold under several other brand
>> names. About the same size as an antifreeze recycler or bar fridge.
>
>Just to add a little to this, I used to do motor-vacs in the shop I
>worked in.  They worked great, but recommended price was about
>$80.00.  They are made by a co. owned by Snap-on.  Anyone interested
>can search on the web, there's a page for them somewhere.
>
>Now for the good stuff...  The special cleaner was similar to GM Top
>Engine Cleaner.  So similar that we saved a bundle by switching to
>it!  Concetration that seemed to work best was 1/2 can to 5 gals gas. 
>Machine was simple 12V pump, tank, mechanically adjustable pressure
>regulator, and timer.  So the DIY'ers can easily make one!  Hardest
>part is making hoses to connect to FI system.  If you play your cards
>right, the whole thing could be done for very little $$.  
>
>Shannen
>
>


From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 25 20:19:13 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:19:13 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32784.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Geoff Richards wrote:
>>
>> ----------
>> <snip>
>> > According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
>> > accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
>> > reduces performance.
>>
>> How to remove this carbon ?
>> Possible with the myriad of 'carbon blast' type of miracle cures,
>> you know the cans of cleaners etc,run 'em through the engine
>> while running or pull the heads?
>> Geoff
>Apparently, walnut shell blasting.  GM claims that no chemical works,
>but I would be interested in seeing the results from properly applied
>Top Engine Cleaner.  A mechanic I worked with left some in a cylinder
>on night while the head was out for reconditioning, and the piston
>wiped clean like new in the morning.
>
>Shannen

There's something that works, dunno what--years ago knew someone who had
what he called a cold tank in his shop. The stuff in it did NOT attack
aluminium, as the chemicals in a hot tank will, but it would (over a 24 to
48 hour soak) make an aluminium head look like new--chamber surfaces,
exhaust ports, inside of water jackets, everywhere!! And this was is the
days of leaded fuel, so the chamber surfaces and exhaust ports were pretty
nasty looking sometimes.

Wish I knew what the stuff in the tank was now!!!

Regards, Greg




From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Mon Jan 25 20:29:28 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:29:28 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32785.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

You are right, that would be a better setup and easier to fab together. I
will see if I can bench it next month
 
Don 

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
> Sent:	Monday, January 25, 1999 12:47 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com <Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com>
> Subject: RE: FW: Electronic timing advance
> 
> Now that is clever, if working with a sensor with a pipe thread a hardware
> store
> black iron coupling would be perfect so they are in the same plane.
> Bruce
> 
> 
> >I haven't tried this setup yet but see what you think of it. Since the KS
> is
> >a pizo device if a frequency is applied to it then vibrations
> >will be produced. If a plate was drilled and tapped for two KS and a
> signal
> >generator applied to one sensor and the ESC module connected to the other
> >one, I would guess you could very accurately map the range of a ESC.
> >
> >My .02$   Don
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
> >> Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 7:32 PM
> >> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >> Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> >> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> >> Date: Friday, January 22, 1999 7:36 PM
> >> Subject: Re: FW: Electronic timing advance
> >>
> >> If your running a ESC Module, they have a diagram for a DIY one at the
> GN
> >> Ttype
> >> site,  or just us a 339/any comparator to the input of the KS to the
> ecm,
> >> have
> >> it trigger a 555 as a monstable for a sec., and use it's output for a
> LED,
> >> relay
> >> etc..   Some of the GN Ttype vendors (ie ATR, I think) have an animal
> for
> >> sale.
> >>    If your car doesn't have a ks then buy a matching ESC Module, and
> >> matching knock sensor (well for gm's anyway).  and wire it up
> >> I think the bias voltage from the esc to the ecm is 7v.  Set up the
> >> comparator for 6, and then just a "filtered""real" knock will trigger
> it.
> >>   I have played mix, and match with them, and while there is some
> >> difference for those having trouble reading plugs, any thing is better
> >> than nothing.  Like I'm currently using a v-8 ks with a 231 ESC Module
> >> and for my combination it's perfect.
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >>
> >> >Do you know of any ready made gizmo's to do that? What do they trigger
> >> off
> >> of,
> >> >the sensor or the ECU? If there isn't any such animal currently what
> >> would
> >> be
> >> >the recommended trigger for a homemade job, sensor or ECU?
> >> >Charles Brooks
> >>
> >


From ron.boley at worldnet.att.net  Mon Jan 25 20:38:53 1999
From: ron.boley at worldnet.att.net (ron.boley)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:38:53 -0500
Subject: SpeedBrain
Message-ID: <mailman.32786.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Matt:

I looked at your site and read the contents on the SpeedBrain.  I'd like
to understand what the dynamic range of the SpeedBrain is versus the
Ford EEC-IV.  Is it a complete equivalent except for added
programmability or is it designed to cure other hi performance ills.

Is it more adaptable than EEC-IV? How would it handle a aftermarket cam
with sufficent overlap to reduce vacuum at idle.

Can you give me (us) some additional insight.

Thanks Ron


Auburn Performance Equipment wrote:
> 
> From: Charles Brooks <cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net>
> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:44:25 -0500
> Subject: Re: SpeedBrain
> 
> I checked out the site, does the Speed Brain come with the sensors
> and
> wiring harness?
> 
> No, none are needed since we plug into the stock harness, using
> the ford conenctor adn use all the stock sensors already in place.
> 
> > You state that it is an additional cost for a couple of
> the other systems listed in the comparison. Also when will a similar
> product be available for GM applications?
> 
> We are planning them out now.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Matt
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> AUBURN PERFORMANCE EQUIPMENT
> Home of the world's fastest 4.6 Cobra!
> 1998 Winner 160mph class Big Bend Classic roadrace, Ft Stockton, TX
> 1998 Winner 160mph class Gamblers Run roadrace, Elko, NV
> 1998 Winner 165mph class Silverstate Classic roadrace, Ely, NV
> 
> We just don't sell and install parts, we make them perform.
> 
> ORDER LINE   1-508-752-7683
> 24 hr FAX LINE (508)752-5269   TECH LINE (508)797-9728
> WEBSITE & ON-LINE CATALOG: http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/index.htm
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 25 20:43:53 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:43:53 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32787.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>One of Garfield's last posts to the list was a summary of a conversation
>he had with his attorney and a patent attorney about reverse
>engineering.  It's too long to reproduce here, but it's in the archives
>right here:
>
>http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/archive/archive_num_100;lines=5816
>6-58305
>
>Bottom line is that the patent/copyright system is designed to protect
>the inventions, while allowing others access to them, and allowing these
>others to incrementally improve them.  While having their improvements
>also protected.
>
>--steve
>
>Mike wrote:
>>
>> I know this is a stupid question and it's not directly EFI-related, but can
>> someone educate me on the legalities, specifically, copyrights and
>> software/firmware,  associated with reading OEM PROMs, "reverse engineering"
>> them and even on "publishing" findings on, say, one's web page? Does reading
>> the PROM not constitute making a copy of the firmware? Is this automatically
>> "illegal"?

But be aware that if you publish your work on your web page, that would
constitute a public disclosure of it. And you have one year from the date
of a public disclosure of an idea to file a patent application on anything
in that disclosure which might be patentable, or it automatically goes into
the public domain for all to use freely. Publishing  an idea to this list ,
or one like it would probably also constitute a public disclosure for the
purposes of starting the one year clock ticking.

Not as familiar with copyright law, but I think that if you note each page
(maybe just the title page) of something with the copyright symbol, you
have reserved the right to file for a copyright on it for a fixed length of
time after the date that you first distribute the material. (Forget whether
the length of time to actually file for a copyright is one, two or three
years.)

These are not legal opinions--just recollections from having dealt with the
issues involved on a personal and/or professional basis.

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 25 20:48:52 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:48:52 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
Message-ID: <mailman.32788.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Gwyn Reedy wrote:
>>
>> Coupla questions.
>>
>> Does any aftermarket vendor provide custom stall ratios on the variable
>> pitch converters?
>>
>At one time Kenne Bell did.  Looks like rebuilt/strengthened factory
>converters, two styles.  1800/2600 rpm, and 1600/2400 rpm stall
>speeds.
>Kenne Bell, 10743 Bell Court, Rancho Cucamonga, California 91730;
>(909) 941-6646.
>
>> What mechanism is used to control the pitch switch? Could that be adapted to
>> allow control of the clutch in a locking converter?
>>
>Old stuff, used in 65-67 Buick and Olds.  Mechanical switches close
>circuit, switches to high stall at idle, and at 70%+ throttle
>opening.  Electrically, it's opposite the TCC.  Original switches and
>linkage are tough to locate, might as well use a manual switch.
>
>> Gwyn Reedy
>> Brandon, Florida
>> mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com

What I am thinking here, at least for drag racing with a turbo motor, is to
have it on high stall until boost reaches a pre-set level, then switch it
to low stall once the turbo is well spooled up and the boost is high (for
better efficiency). No lock up clutch to fry that way---

Regards, Greg
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Greg
>> > Hermann
>> > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:50 PM
>> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> > Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter should be
>> > >connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
>> > >control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
>> > >points dizzy.
>> >
>> > Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know of
>> > any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
>> > idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
>> > let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
>> >
>> > Regards, Greg
>> > >
>> > >Shannen
>> >
>> >




From bearbvd at sni.net  Mon Jan 25 20:58:02 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:58:02 -0500
Subject: Non list-chasing ghosts.
Message-ID: <mailman.32789.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>If there's anyone here who's run Racer Brown camshafts, esp. SB Chevy,
>how did you like it/them?  Also, if anyone has an old spec card around
>from an RB cam, please email the specs to me.
>Thanks,
>Shannen

Jim (@ Racer Brown), still in business, is one pretty sharp dude. He used
to grind the cams for Mark Donahue's Trans-Am AMC racer. He is the one who
came up with the roller followers for that motor which acted like flat
tappets for the usual tech inspection that was used by SCCA at that time
for checking that aspect of the engine.

(The Javelin in question was the same one that had a solid rear axle with
about 1-1/2 degrees of negative camber on each rear wheel. This was done by
means of (I think) a curved spline on the outer end of a full floating axle
shaft. Pretty cute stuff. No wonder the class got sorta expensive to
run!!!) :-)

Regards, Greg




From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Tue Jan 26 00:38:26 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:38:26 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
Message-ID: <mailman.32790.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Guenther,Max wrote:

> As for control I just used a cheap micro switch.  looked cheesy but
> works great! 

Gee, thats what GM used for original equipment on the VP 400s ;->
BTW, the Super Turbine 2 speed used the same VP convertor in some years.
The V6 versions had the highest stall speed. 



From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Tue Jan 26 00:42:53 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:42:53 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32791.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:

> >     The previous owner put a switch pitch converter in my car, Firebird w/455
> > Pontiac.  Seems amazingly stupid to me, why the hell do I need to rev a Poncho
> > motor?
> > 
> Everyone's an expert until proven wrong.  If you decide to switch back
> to stock pump and converter, I'll swap ya.

Me, too. I have a good non-VP 400 pump etc. just sitting here waiting...



From lconley at hns.com  Tue Jan 26 00:48:22 1999
From: lconley at hns.com (lconley at hns.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:48:22 -0500
Subject: L-Jetronic resistor values
Message-ID: <mailman.32792.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Blueprinting a BMW K-75S motorcycle. Anticipate HP
peak will move forward due to retarding intake cam profile.

I'm looking to move the timing retardation and fuel cutoff
on the L-Jetronic about 500 RPM further out from the 8777
RPM and 8905 RPM points.

Can someone steer me towards the appropriate resistors?
Direction of resistance change? Amount of change?
Any other related tidbits? Related reading?

TIA, Lou "Louge" Conley





From wilman at hkabc.net  Tue Jan 26 00:48:51 1999
From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:48:51 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question
Message-ID: <mailman.32793.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



----------
> From: John Andrianakis <John.Andrian at usa.net>
> To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Bosch ecu question
> Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 12:17 PM
> 
> LS wrote:
> > 
> > I have idenitcal question on the Motronic DME 0261 200 088
> > and KLR 0227 400 145 units from Porsche 951 (944T)
> > 
> > MCU??? markings DME:
> > iB 57312  8738
> > 
> > MCU??? markings KLR:
> > iB 57391  8721
> > 
> > Anybody dissassembled Bosch ECU's?
> > 
> > Fooled around with prom tables (fuel timing boost)?
> > 
> > How about AFM to MAF replacement in software?
> > 
> >                   Thanks Len.
> I havent worked on that particular one but I found a prom file from the
> fuel ecu and it looks simple. Cant realy tell without the emulator on a
> working car.A friend is putting together a 944t and I will be checking
> it out soon.I will post my findings asap.
> I have worked on Bosch ecus from Fiat Punto GTs,Audi A4 turbo and some
> late model BMW.
> Most of the time I deal with Magneti Marelli ecus and some Weber.
> John Andrianakis.
> 


Could you give me some advise on locating particular maps on Marelli ECUs?

I work on quite a few Peugeot Maserati and Fiat/Lancia. 

I do have difficulty in locating some maps.


Wilman Lee


From villen01 at gel.ulaval.ca  Tue Jan 26 01:04:56 1999
From: villen01 at gel.ulaval.ca (Hugo Villeneuve)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:04:56 -0500
Subject: Methanol compatible Injectors & LM1949
Message-ID: <mailman.32794.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi all,

	1. I'm searching methanol (M85) compatible injectors rated at 25
pounds/hour. If someone have a contact or a place where to find them, let
me know.

	2. I want to use the National Semiconductors LM1949 for injector drive.
Since I have a four cylinder engine, is it possible to have only two LM1949
for driving the four injectors?

	Hugo Villeneuve.



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Tue Jan 26 01:05:55 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:05:55 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32795.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Greg Hermann wrote:

> Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know of
> any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
> idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
> let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)

Switch pitches are good for heavy cars with long gears - help out of the hole
and low rpm cruse. Adds about 1000 rpm - makes a 6 speed but most of the time
it's not really effective with a wide torque curve. Use a 700R4 with the right
converter, or for BIG motors, the T400 derivative, I forgot the number.
Regarde  Tom



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Tue Jan 26 01:12:24 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:12:24 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32796.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Greg Hermann wrote:

> >
> >One thing that might work would be to have a 2 or 4 injector TBI setup,
> >with those injectors sized to get you up to maybe 25% of max power,
> >and relatively huge TPI injectors in each port. This way you can have
> >really big TPI injectors without worrying about idle quality. And, as
> >an added bonus, you probably will get a higher % of the fuel from the
> >TBI injectors to evaporate, which is probably a *good* thing for BSFC
> >at cruise. (Actually I don't know how the pumping work vs. compression
> >work numbers pan out... Greg?)

I was thinking about the opposite, small sequential injectors squirting on the
valve for economy and a couple of big TPIs for WOT with all that wet flow.
Regards  Tom



From ECMnut at aol.com  Tue Jan 26 01:55:16 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:55:16 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question, Porche 944T
Message-ID: <mailman.32797.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I believe there are two (removable) 2732 eproms in that box...
One socket labeled "KLR", the other "DME"
If so, I may be able to assist you..  I believe the aftermarket chips
supply more fuel & a little more timing down low, but leave it
to the user, to bleed some of the wastegate boost signal in order
to achieve increased manifold pressure..
Do you have a dump of the chips, and where are you located?
Mike V.

> > > 
>  > > I have idenitcal question on the Motronic DME 0261 200 088
>  > > and KLR 0227 400 145 units from Porsche 951 (944T)
>  > > 
>  > > MCU??? markings DME:
>  > > iB 57312  8738
>  > > 


From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 26 02:23:45 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:23:45 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32798.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Tom Sharpe wrote:
> 
> Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> > Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know of
> > any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
> > idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
> > let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
> 
> Switch pitches are good for heavy cars with long gears - help out of the hole
> and low rpm cruse. Adds about 1000 rpm - makes a 6 speed but most of the time
> it's not really effective with a wide torque curve. Use a 700R4 with the right
> converter, or for BIG motors, the T400 derivative, I forgot the number.
> Regarde  Tom
That be the 4l80e, very heavy, very hungry for horses, but very
tough.  Dual stator torque convertor + tcc, electronically controlled
shifts, and did I mention it was heavy?
Shannen



From AJLegere at aol.com  Tue Jan 26 02:27:03 1999
From: AJLegere at aol.com (AJLegere at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:27:03 -0500
Subject: TPI on a 406
Message-ID: <mailman.32799.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Just a short comment on yr 'picked up'TPI.  I've gor an '87 TPI setup for the
exact same application.  The donor car was an '87 Firebird 350 with a '165.

AJL


From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 26 02:31:05 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:31:05 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32800.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence Wood wrote:
> 
> Thank you Shannon!!
>   I have all the material to make the unit!  One question: I assume that the timer was used on the pump, but, in any case, how long would you let the engine run for a 6 cylinder engine?
>   I guess I have another question: is it O2 safe?
>   And another question: how big is the tank?
> 
>
> >
>From memory, the tank is 5 gallons.  Run time depends on condition of
the engine, maximum timer setting was one hour.  Minimum 1/2 hour with
cleaner circulating through fuel rail, and engine off.  Remember to
connect pressure and return lines as close to the engine as possible. 
Routing is shown here:
http://www.motorvac.com/Professional%20Section/engine%20connections%20gas.htm
Yes, is sensor safe.
Shannen



From mharding at qonline.com.au  Tue Jan 26 02:33:58 1999
From: mharding at qonline.com.au (Matthew Harding)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:33:58 -0500
Subject: lookup resolution
Message-ID: <mailman.32801.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

i am toyiong with the idea of using a STAMP BS2SX as the heart of a simple
EFI system.  For anyone who doesn't know the STAMP, go to...

http://www.parallaxinc.com/

anyway, that doesn't really matter, my questions are regarding the
resolution of the lookup table, it is being designed primarily for my own
1.6 Litre Isuzu turbo engine, running 15 PSI boost max... therefore it will
be using a 2 bar MAP sensor, and will rev to around 8000 rpm

I was planning on using 16 RPM points and 64 load points, this would given
around 500 RPM and .5 PSI MAP resolution...

my questions; 

is this resolution high enough for a street driven engine ?

what sort of interpolation would i require, if any ?

would the engine still remain drivable without any interpolation... simple
chosing the next highest point in the lookup table ?



and some others, if you've got time :)

Is it ok to have the program say that whenever TPS = 0% simply go into
"idle mode" supplying a predetermined injector pulse ?

can anyone design a simple, adjustable curcuit for sensing when the
"accelerator pump" enrichment should be added... just something that went
HIGH when the TPS had been opened faster than a predetermine rate ?

is it ok to just use 1 bit for temp... ie, when the engine is below normal
operating temp add a set percentage to the injector pulse width, or does it
have to vary as the temp rises ?

I know, there is heaps of questions here, but any help would be greatly
appreciated...

thanks in advance

Matt



From wmcdonal at hutch.com.au  Tue Jan 26 02:49:38 1999
From: wmcdonal at hutch.com.au (Wayne Macdonald)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:49:38 -0500
Subject: LM9044
Message-ID: <mailman.32802.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


------ =_NextPart_000_01BE493A.8D3F0180
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Anyone know where I can get some of the LM9044 O2 amplifiers ?, Or an equivalent, Or a circuit diagram that will do the job.

Thanks
	Wayne.
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From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Tue Jan 26 02:57:01 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David Cooley)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:57:01 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32803.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Williams <dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us>
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 7:47 PM
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...



-> I can tell you (as a past Hypertech employee) that copying the stock
-> binary, making changes, and then selling it as your own work is NOT
-> illegal.  This has been a legal  issue of long debate.  Once the
-> binary is modified, it is no longer copyrighted material.  Re-selling
-> of non-modified binaries IS illegal, however.

By US law copying, modifying, and reselling code is a Federal crime.
Several states also have anti-hacking and anti-piracy laws that cover
this.

<SNIP>

Actually, they are not modifying code...
They are modifying look-up tables.  There is no copyright or patent that
covers timing curves, fuel curves etc... if there was, changing the advance
weights in your old distributor ignition car would have been illegal.




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Tue Jan 26 02:57:08 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David Cooley)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:57:08 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32804.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

That's called a high stall convertor with lockup.
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths


>
>>
>>Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter should be
>>connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
>>control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
>>points dizzy.
>
>Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know of
>any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
>idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
>let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
>
>Regards, Greg
>>
>>Shannen
>
>
>




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Tue Jan 26 02:57:25 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David Cooley)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:57:25 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32805.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

CARB never gives approval...
They issue Exemption Orders that state that the product in question does not
create emissions that exceed the particular model years limits.
CARB has gone after and sued several companies that claimed CARB issued
Approval or certification that a particular product performed as advertised
(in regards to HP & Torque...).

-----Original Message-----
From: Orin Eman <orin at wolfenet.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: PROMs and Copyrights...


>
>> Mike wrote:
>> The bigger question on copying and modifying the OEM code is who out
>> here does emissions testing on the final results?  The OEM's spend huge
>> $$$ on testing and I suspect are on the hook for any changes that effect
>> emissions.  Do any aftermarket tuners who make PROM changes recertify
>> the cars or even test for emissions?
>
>Well, Intended Acceleration has CARB approval for some of their
>'modifications'.  What this actually involves is a different matter...
>
>Orin.
>




From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 26 03:07:28 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:07:28 -0500
Subject: Methanol compatible Injectors & LM1949
Message-ID: <mailman.32806.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hi all,
>
>	1. I'm searching methanol (M85) compatible injectors rated at 25
>pounds/hour. If someone have a contact or a place where to find them, let
>me know.
>
Me too!!! Infact any info on methanol or ethanol compatible injectors, from
25# on up would be of help. Bosch?? Rochester?? Siemens?? Denso?? Lucas??
Detailed flow info (fuel/pressure/flow)???

Regards, Greg
>
>	Hugo Villeneuve.




From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 26 04:09:41 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:09:41 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32807.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Snip
, or is there still a low-battery injector
>pulse width correction? 

yes, in the few gm ecms, I've seen there has always been a v
correction table.
Snip

Would anyone happen to know, an easy way to lie to the ecm to
actually test this?.  Would something like a 1.0 ohm 10 watt 
resistor in series with the key power on or does the memory
wire have to drop also?.
On diacom they show a fuel pump voltage, is that the same as
what is used on the voltage correction table?.
Cheers
Bruce



From John.Andrian at usa.net  Tue Jan 26 04:18:32 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:18:32 -0500
Subject: Crane Cams regular telephone number
Message-ID: <mailman.32808.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

HADJIASLANIS ARIS 1260 800 wrote:
> 
> Could one PLEASE provide me with a NON 800 i.e. regular telephone number
> of Crane Cams (not distributor) so I can call them from Europe. All I
> have is a fax number and an 888 telephone number which I cannot use from
> Europe.
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance
> 
> Aris
Try +1 904 252 1151 for tel and +1 904 258 6167 for fax.




From John.Andrian at usa.net  Tue Jan 26 04:18:44 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:18:44 -0500
Subject: Bosch ecu question
Message-ID: <mailman.32809.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

WILMAN wrote:
> 
> ----------
> > From: John Andrianakis <John.Andrian at usa.net>
> > To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > Subject: Re: Bosch ecu question
> > Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 12:17 PM
> >
> > LS wrote:
> > >
> > > I have idenitcal question on the Motronic DME 0261 200 088
> > > and KLR 0227 400 145 units from Porsche 951 (944T)
> > >
> > > MCU??? markings DME:
> > > iB 57312  8738
> > >
> > > MCU??? markings KLR:
> > > iB 57391  8721
> > >
> > > Anybody dissassembled Bosch ECU's?
> > >
> > > Fooled around with prom tables (fuel timing boost)?
> > >
> > > How about AFM to MAF replacement in software?
> > >
> > >                   Thanks Len.
> > I havent worked on that particular one but I found a prom file from the
> > fuel ecu and it looks simple. Cant realy tell without the emulator on a
> > working car.A friend is putting together a 944t and I will be checking
> > it out soon.I will post my findings asap.
> > I have worked on Bosch ecus from Fiat Punto GTs,Audi A4 turbo and some
> > late model BMW.
> > Most of the time I deal with Magneti Marelli ecus and some Weber.
> > John Andrianakis.
> >
> 
> Could you give me some advise on locating particular maps on Marelli ECUs?
> 
> I work on quite a few Peugeot Maserati and Fiat/Lancia.
> 
> I do have difficulty in locating some maps.
> 
> Wilman Lee

Hard to say like this because different generations of ecus store data
in different ways. If you could send me a bin file I could take a look
at it. What kind of maps are you looking for? What equipment are you
using?



From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 26 04:41:01 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:41:01 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32810.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Tom Sharpe wrote:
>>
>> Greg Hermann wrote:
>>
>> > Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know of
>> > any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
>> > idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
>> > let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
>>
>> Switch pitches are good for heavy cars with long gears - help out of the hole
>> and low rpm cruse. Adds about 1000 rpm - makes a 6 speed but most of the time
>> it's not really effective with a wide torque curve. Use a 700R4 with the
>>right
>> converter, or for BIG motors, the T400 derivative, I forgot the number.
>> Regarde  Tom
>That be the 4l80e, very heavy, very hungry for horses, but very
>tough.  Dual stator torque convertor + tcc, electronically controlled
>shifts, and did I mention it was heavy?
>Shannen

Hi Shannen--

What are some typical vehicle apps for the 4180e???

Regards, Greg




From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Tue Jan 26 04:45:04 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:45:04 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32811.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Shannen Durphey wrote:

> traditional carb'ed manifold, DIY converted.

What angle in the manifold do you go with relative to 0 degrees?  closed loop, if so 2 o2
sensors? what kind of injectors and what kind of computer?

> Everyone's an expert until proven wrong.  If you decide to switch back
> to stock pump and converter, I'll swap ya.

    It's not doing me any good, I don't need to rev my engine to get power from the
thing.  The power band and redline look more like a diesel, 4500 rpm max.  I will be
getting a used TH-400, which I will be attempting to rebuild around may or so.  The old
tranny ,TH-400,has managed to blow one posi rearend, which I later learned had good 3.42
richmond gears in it, and is working on the next.  Looks like the very harsh shifts
actually blew out the preload and allowed the pinion to grind away the carrier, damn
shift kits.  I will gladly part with it for a few bucks over shipping around then if your
still interested.

James Ballenger





From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 26 04:48:33 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:48:33 -0500
Subject: lookup resolution
Message-ID: <mailman.32812.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>i am toyiong with the idea of using a STAMP BS2SX as the heart of a simple
>EFI system.  For anyone who doesn't know the STAMP, go to...
>
>http://www.parallaxinc.com/
>
>anyway, that doesn't really matter, my questions are regarding the
>resolution of the lookup table, it is being designed primarily for my own
>1.6 Litre Isuzu turbo engine, running 15 PSI boost max... therefore it will
>be using a 2 bar MAP sensor, and will rev to around 8000 rpm
>
>I was planning on using 16 RPM points and 64 load points, this would given
>around 500 RPM and .5 PSI MAP resolution...
>
>my questions;
>
>is this resolution high enough for a street driven engine ?

If you can, I would say go to twice as many rpm points (32) and use a
logarithmic scale to lay them out (equal percentage increase from each rpm
level to the next) for best streetability.
>
>what sort of interpolation would i require, if any ?

Linear interpolation at most, mebbe not necessary.
>
>would the engine still remain drivable without any interpolation... simple
>chosing the next highest point in the lookup table ?

Should prolly be OK, particularly if you go with 32 rpm points and make
them log scale.
>
>
>
>and some others, if you've got time :)
>
>Is it ok to have the program say that whenever TPS = 0% simply go into
>"idle mode" supplying a predetermined injector pulse ?

Might look at shutting off fuel on decel, and turn back on at low rpm.
>
>can anyone design a simple, adjustable curcuit for sensing when the
>"accelerator pump" enrichment should be added... just something that went
>HIGH when the TPS had been opened faster than a predetermine rate ?
>
>is it ok to just use 1 bit for temp... ie, when the engine is below normal
>operating temp add a set percentage to the injector pulse width, or does it
>have to vary as the temp rises ?

I think four, or even eight steps might be a lot better for streetability.

Regards, Greg
>
>I know, there is heaps of questions here, but any help would be greatly
>appreciated...
>
>thanks in advance
>
>Matt




From ECMnut at aol.com  Tue Jan 26 05:02:52 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:02:52 -0500
Subject: Injector reference halp needed..
Message-ID: <mailman.32813.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Anyone with the resources, you would really
make my week if you can give me flow ratings on
the following Mopar (Bosch) 4-banger injectors.

0 280 155 703
0 280 155 741

Danka  !
Mike V


From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 26 05:03:21 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:03:21 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32814.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>That's called a high stall convertor with lockup.

Sure it is--but it would be a whole lot easier on drivelines, especially
during shifts, and it would not fry from slipping, etc.!!!

Just stray thoughts.

Greg
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:00 PM
>Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter should be
>>>connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
>>>control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
>>>points dizzy.
>>
>>Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know of
>>any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
>>idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
>>let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>>
>>>Shannen
>>
>>
>>




From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Tue Jan 26 05:24:32 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:24:32 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32815.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Tom Sharpe wrote:

> it's not really effective with a wide torque curve. Use a 700R4 with the right
> converter, or for BIG motors, the T400 derivative, I forgot the number.

4L80E





From orin at wolfenet.com  Tue Jan 26 07:45:51 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:45:51 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32816.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

OK, wrong term...  the point is still valid with 'approval' replaced
with "Exemption Order".  They have it and aren't making claims
connecting CARB with advertised performance.

> CARB never gives approval...
> They issue Exemption Orders that state that the product in question does not
> create emissions that exceed the particular model years limits.
> CARB has gone after and sued several companies that claimed CARB issued
> Approval or certification that a particular product performed as advertised
> (in regards to HP & Torque...).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Orin Eman <orin at wolfenet.com>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:05 PM
> Subject: Re: PROMs and Copyrights...


> >
> >> Mike wrote:
> >> The bigger question on copying and modifying the OEM code is who out
> >> here does emissions testing on the final results?  The OEM's spend huge
> >> $$$ on testing and I suspect are on the hook for any changes that effect
> >> emissions.  Do any aftermarket tuners who make PROM changes recertify
> >> the cars or even test for emissions?
> >
> >Well, Intended Acceleration has CARB approval for some of their
> >'modifications'.  What this actually involves is a different matter...
> >
> >Orin.
> >




From orin at wolfenet.com  Tue Jan 26 07:54:44 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:54:44 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32817.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> Actually, they are not modifying code...
> They are modifying look-up tables.  There is no copyright or patent that
> covers timing curves, fuel curves etc... if there was, changing the advance
> weights in your old distributor ignition car would have been illegal.

Perhaps not for a simple curve, but the tables in ECUs are generated
from extended testing of the engine and are not simple curves.

It is irrelevant what the bits represent, be it code or data.
It's still covered by copyright.  For example, there is no such
thing as a data table on a PIC, it's all code, but there is a
method of using a code sequence for a data table.  You can't
make this code/data table distinction.

Orin.


From geoffsue at one.net.au  Tue Jan 26 08:27:16 1999
From: geoffsue at one.net.au (Geoff Richards)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:27:16 -0500
Subject: Cold hesitation
Message-ID: <mailman.32818.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi to all
would someone be willing to read this data list and help with stalling
problem cold?
This data was read via Tech 1 scan tool on a '93 model Holden
Commodore 3.8l V6 via the 'Snapshot method'
Problem occurs cold when first started and shifted into 'drive' and
throttle applied. After warm
up no problem
The data I have included is only the readings that have changed within the
'Snapshot' 
Columns are for time after start

DATA              1 sec                 5 sec                          10
sec 

RPM                 1523                 936                             
468
MAP                 1.01v                 1.41v                            
3.84
MAP                  29kpa                36kpa                       
82kpa
TPS                   .47v                    .47v                         
   .66v
TPS                     0%                    0%                           
   5%
O2                      1061mv             986mv                         
310mv
INJ PULSE        6.26ms              6.3ms                         18.09ms
INJ VOLTS        12.6v                  13.4v                         
12.7v
LTFT                   0                           -6%                     
     0
LTFT CELL        22                          22                            
4
LTFT DISABLED
AFR                     8.6:1                    10.3:1                    
   9.6:1
O2 STATUS         rich                      rich                          
lean
IAC                     98                             85                  
         104
SPARK ADV        +24                         +28                         +5

I can see that I'm experiencing a lean condition during this time
via the O2 sensor readings and inj pulse time but cannot work out what is
the cause
I do not understand why the LTFT is changing when it is apparently disabled
Why does MAP go so high ?
Is spark advance pulled down to avoid detonation while lean condition
exists?
Look forward to opinions and advice
TIA
Geoff            


From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Tue Jan 26 08:49:17 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:49:17 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
Message-ID: <mailman.32819.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I hate to blow it for the rest of us that know but in a 747 and others just
get a calpak from a 4 cyl(ex. S-10) and plug it in to a 747.....its just a
resistor network that gets the processor to understand the ticks while
cranking that it's a 4 cyl......then make sure you change the cyl select in
the lookup tables so the "timing" is correct......blah blah and then some
-Carl Summers

In a message dated 1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, nacelp at bright.net
writes:

<< Subj:	 Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
 Date:	1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 
 
 I knew, you knew that, well maybe a couple other guys,do
 Bruce
 
  
 >>  Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?.
 >>  Bruce
 >None..
 >Mike V
 
 
  >>


From geoffsue at one.net.au  Tue Jan 26 08:54:46 1999
From: geoffsue at one.net.au (Geoff Richards)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:54:46 -0500
Subject: Carbon build up
Message-ID: <mailman.32820.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

----------
<snip>
> According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
> accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
> reduces performance. 

How to remove this carbon ?
Possible with the myriad of 'carbon blast' type of miracle cures,
you know the cans of cleaners etc,run 'em through the engine
while running or pull the heads?
Geoff


From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Tue Jan 26 09:20:46 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:20:46 -0500
Subject: Non list-chasing ghosts.
Message-ID: <mailman.32821.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

No offense intended Shannen,,,,, but what about newer lobe technology!!!!!!
-Carl Summers

In a message dated 1/25/99 9:47:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shannen at grolen.com writes:

<< Subj:	 Non list-chasing ghosts.
 Date:	1/25/99 9:47:25 AM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu (diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu)
 
 If there's anyone here who's run Racer Brown camshafts, esp. SB Chevy,
 how did you like it/them?  Also, if anyone has an old spec card around
 from an RB cam, please email the specs to me.  
 Thanks,
 Shannen
  >>


From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 26 10:35:59 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:35:59 -0500
Subject: Non list-chasing ghosts.
Message-ID: <mailman.32822.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'm currently helping a guy put together an engine for an antique
stock car.  In the process, I've met several people who bragged about
these cams.  I'm curious about them now, and want to throw some
numbers into my engine simulations.  Seems like they were pretty hot,
and now you don't even hear about RB.

Since you're on the line, know of any reasonable sources for a set of
fuelie heade?  Gotta be straight plug.
Shannen

EFISYSTEMS at aol.com wrote:
> 
> No offense intended Shannen,,,,, but what about newer lobe technology!!!!!!
> -Carl Summers
>



From stuart at kenelec.com.au  Tue Jan 26 10:43:43 1999
From: stuart at kenelec.com.au (Stuart Bunning)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:43 -0500
Subject: Timing and diff ratio's
Message-ID: <mailman.32823.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Hi All

In the past I have swapped  the diff ratio on my old non-efi based car to a
lower ratio so I would get better lower ET's over the 1/4 mile and quick
acceleration off the lights.

BUT

If I was to do this with delco 808 based EFI car say go from standard 3.08:1
to 3.7:1 diff ratio would I need to alter the MEMCAL TIMING and FUEL maps at
all. To fully benifit from the diff change ??

I assume that as the motor would be under less load and rev quicker I could
benifit from changing the timing but what about fuel I assume as the motor
hasn't all of a sudden changes its VE there should not need to be any fuel
changes in the memcal...





 



Best Regards,

STUART BUNNING
SALES ENGINEER
KENELEC PTY LTD

23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
AUSTRALIA

PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
EMAIL:  stuart at kenelec.com.au
WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/



From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 26 10:52:09 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:52:09 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32824.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> >Tom Sharpe wrote:
> >>
> >> Greg Hermann wrote:
> >>
> >> > Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets forgotten--Anybody know of
> >> > any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or whether such an
> >> > idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching the pitch to
> >> > let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
> >>
> >> Switch pitches are good for heavy cars with long gears - help out of the hole
> >> and low rpm cruse. Adds about 1000 rpm - makes a 6 speed but most of the time
> >> it's not really effective with a wide torque curve. Use a 700R4 with the
> >>right
> >> converter, or for BIG motors, the T400 derivative, I forgot the number.
> >> Regarde  Tom
> >That be the 4l80e, very heavy, very hungry for horses, but very
> >tough.  Dual stator torque convertor + tcc, electronically controlled
> >shifts, and did I mention it was heavy?
> >Shannen
> 
> Hi Shannen--
> 
> What are some typical vehicle apps for the 4180e???
> 
> Regards, Greg
pickups and vans, motor homes, diesel trucks, all rated at 3/4 ton and
above, 1991 and newer.  They get much more common after 1994.  Really,
it is a THM400 with overdrive added.  
Shannen



From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 26 11:24:26 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:24:26 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32825.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

James Ballenger wrote:
> 
> Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> > traditional carb'ed manifold, DIY converted.
> 
> What angle in the manifold do you go with relative to 0 degrees?  
As close to optimum as possible.  Really, I'm going to have to sit
down with the manifold and an empty set of cylinder heads and start
taking measurements.  I'll also  get some different PFI intakes/heads
to see what factory stuff is like.  
>
>closed loop, if so 2 o2 sensors? what kind of injectors and what kind of computer?

Since this is a long term plan, it's subject to change.  Right now I'm
thinking about the 730 ecm and factory related stuff.  'course it
depends on the final power level of the engine.   I need to do more
efi swaps that require chip changes.  One "practice" run will involve
a 67 Chevelle, 7747 ecm, and Holley TBI.  Another will be
turbocharging a 93 cavalier/2.2l.  And in between, anyone I can talk
into converting to EFI.  I'm pretty sure that a couple of years will
expire before that car is converted. 
Shannen



From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 26 11:42:00 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:42:00 -0500
Subject: Carbon build up
Message-ID: <mailman.32826.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Walnut shell blasting is the recommended fix.  Can be done on the
vehicle if there's enough access to the intake ports. Like
sandblasting, but the crushed shells are harmless to the engine.  Any
in tank "miracle cures"  would be working a true miracle if they
helped this situation.  
Shannen

> 
> ----------
> <snip>
> > According to a service bulletin, the 3.8l engine suffers from carbon
> > accumulation on the back of the intake valve which significantly
> > reduces performance.
> 
> How to remove this carbon ?
> Possible with the myriad of 'carbon blast' type of miracle cures,
> you know the cans of cleaners etc,run 'em through the engine
> while running or pull the heads?
> Geoff



From chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca  Tue Jan 26 12:04:39 1999
From: chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca (Wen Yen Chan)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:04:39 -0500
Subject: LM9044
Message-ID: <mailman.32827.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello,

Try Newark electronics. 

Wen

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Wayne Macdonald wrote:

> Anyone know where I can get some of the LM9044 O2 amplifiers ?, Or an equivalent, Or a circuit diagram that will do the job.
> 
> Thanks
> 	Wayne.



From hodgson at utkux.utcc.utk.edu  Tue Jan 26 13:42:13 1999
From: hodgson at utkux.utcc.utk.edu (J W Hodgson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:42:13 -0500
Subject: Methanol injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32828.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Probably the best place to start is to look at the injectors used on
flex-fuel vehicles such as the Ford Taurus FFV.  GM and Chrysler (oops,
Daimler Chrysler) also produced flex-fuel vehicles.

	J. W. Hodgson
	Mechanical Engineering Dept	e-mail: jhodgson at utk.edu
	414 Dougherty Hall		http://web.utk.edu/~hodgson
	The University of Tennessee	voice: 	(423) 974-5294
	Knoxville, TN 37996-2210	fax:	(423) 974-5274




From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 26 14:13:43 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:13:43 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32829.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Shannen Durphey wrote:
>
>> traditional carb'ed manifold, DIY converted.
>
>What angle in the manifold do you go with relative to 0 degrees?  closed
>loop, if so 2 o2
>sensors? what kind of injectors and what kind of computer?
>
>> Everyone's an expert until proven wrong.  If you decide to switch back
>> to stock pump and converter, I'll swap ya.
>
>    It's not doing me any good, I don't need to rev my engine to get power
>from the
>thing.  The power band and redline look more like a diesel, 4500 rpm max.
>I will be
>getting a used TH-400, which I will be attempting to rebuild around may or
>so.  The old
>tranny ,TH-400,has managed to blow one posi rearend, which I later learned
>had good 3.42
>richmond gears in it, and is working on the next.  Looks like the very
>harsh shifts
>actually blew out the preload and allowed the pinion to grind away the
>carrier, damn
>shift kits.  I will gladly part with it for a few bucks over shipping
>around then if your
>still interested.
>
>James Ballenger

Did the rear have a crush sleeve for preload, or positive shims?? The
latter is a lot harder to do that to, conversions are usually available.

Regards, Greg




From rauscher at icst.com  Tue Jan 26 14:27:18 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:27:18 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32830.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



I guess it's mostly curiosity, with the thought that I may need to tweak the
tuning of the unit for other apps. It's been mentioned that the knock freq
is relative to the bore size. Being that I've several 305 ESC's and none from
a 350 (hard to find), well, I was just having some fun...

My results seem to be a little different then what you have found, but I'm 
not done yet. My first step was to hook the knock sensor output up to the
scope and rap on it with a metal rod. It looks just like you would expect
from a microphone, with a max output of ~3v (with a 'good' strike).

So, the ESC module is on the bench, +12v supply, scope on output, and
a function generator (sine wave), on the input. The ESC module is a HKM
from a '87 305 Chevy van.

It appears as though the module responds mostly to a rapid change in signal.
Either a sudden increase in amplitude, or a sudden change in frequency.
It appears that the freq range need be in the 2KHz to 17.5 KHz range.

I haven't found a 'sweet' spot that would cause a continuous knock signal
output. The max p-p volts input that I've been testing with is 2.5v. If I really
crank up the volts, I can get a continuous output at almost any input freq.

For the curious amongst us, the circuit is built on a thin ceramic plate
using silk-screened on resisters, some SMD capacitors, and a single
SMD chip (18 pin). The board was 'encapsulated' with a clear jelly like
substance that cleaned off with a toothbrush. The resisters are laser
trimmed for value.

BobR.

Who at this point is thinking that verifying the above on another module
would be a good idea. No sense in doing all this with a module that might
be/is bad.

Who is also thinking that a tape recording on a running auto, of the
knock sensor 'sounds' like something to try.


Bruce Plecan wrote:

>At one time I had a dozen or so esc on the bench, what exactly do you need
>to know?.
>In crash testing them, using a 555 to generate the KS they all seemed to
>listen
>to 2 frequencies.
>If you want I think I got the diagrams for the 555s to generate the KS
>signals.
>The 555 generators kinda overwhelm the ESC so the results aren't terribly
>accurate, if your tuning them.
>Bruce

BobR wrote:

>>Who now has a 305 truck ESC module on the bench, trying to find
>>out the how/what/why/where of this unit.


--




From mgr at mgrcorp.com  Tue Jan 26 15:16:00 1999
From: mgr at mgrcorp.com (Gwyn Reedy)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:16:00 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
Message-ID: <mailman.32831.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks for your response Max, and Shannen too.

Time to admit some ignorance. Haven't taken apart an automatic since I
rebuilt a powerglide back in the 70's.  Have driven Buicks with Dynaflow,
and a 66 Buick with 2 speed torque converter (my mom's car back then) and
various TH350s and TH400s and the 4l60E in my Impala.

Was under the impression that you can't put a locking torque converter on a
TH-350 or 400 because there is some kind of mechanical device (rod or
sleeve) that is in the trans and activates the locking of the clutches in
the converter. Seems like it would have to be that or else some kind of slip
rings to get electricity into the converter to lock an electrical clutch.

So what I'm asking is if the mechanism to switch the variable pitch torque
converter is similar enough to the mechanism of the locking torque converter
to be used for the latter. Not concerned about how the decision to switch
pitch or to lock comes about, but how does it get transmitted into the
converter.

Reason for the interest: I have a big block pickup with TH-400 and 3.08 rear
end. 4l80's are very expensive but is what I'd really like to have. If I
could get a locking converter to work on the truck I might spring for an aux
overdrive unit to mount behind the automatic and put in a 4.11 rear.

Do you have a reference to a site or book that explains the variable pitch
setup?

Gwyn Reedy
Brandon, Florida
mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]

On Behalf Of
> Guenther,Max
> Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 1:05 PM
> To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'
> Subject: RE: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
>
>
> As for control I just used a cheap micro switch.  looked cheesy but
> works great!
>
> >----------
> >From: 	Shannen Durphey[SMTP:shannen at grolen.com]
> >Reply To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >Sent: 	Monday, January 25, 1999 11:56 AM
> >To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >Subject: 	Re: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
> >
> >Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> >>
> >> Coupla questions.
> >>
> >> Does any aftermarket vendor provide custom stall ratios on the variable
> >> pitch converters?
> >>
> >At one time Kenne Bell did.  Looks like rebuilt/strengthened factory
> >converters, two styles.  1800/2600 rpm, and 1600/2400 rpm stall
> >speeds.
> >Kenne Bell, 10743 Bell Court, Rancho Cucamonga, California 91730;
> >(909) 941-6646.
> >
> >> What mechanism is used to control the pitch switch? Could that
> be adapted
> >>to
> >> allow control of the clutch in a locking converter?
> >>
> >Old stuff, used in 65-67 Buick and Olds.  Mechanical switches close
> >circuit, switches to high stall at idle, and at 70%+ throttle
> >opening.  Electrically, it's opposite the TCC.  Original switches and
> >linkage are tough to locate, might as well use a manual switch.
> >
> >> Gwyn Reedy
> >> Brandon, Florida
> >> mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >> > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Greg
> >> > Hermann
> >> > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:50 PM
> >> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >> > Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter
> should be
> >> > >connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
> >> > >control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
> >> > >points dizzy.
> >> >
> >> > Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets
> forgotten--Anybody know
> >>of
> >> > any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or
> whether such an
> >> > idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching
> the pitch to
> >> > let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
> >> >
> >> > Regards, Greg
> >> > >
> >> > >Shannen
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
>



From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Tue Jan 26 15:31:30 1999
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:31:30 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32832.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The question of your rights to hack GM or other ECU's vs the Manufacturers
boil down to two words -  Cubic Dollars.   If or when it is perceived by GM et
al to be in GM's interest to end the practice, it will end.   GM has
historically crushed competition without regard to anything other than it was
good for GM.  Count on it.

Start with sheer absolute weight of lawyers - how many thousand can you afford
to defend with?   Then if you do start to get an edge - how many cubic
lobbyist can you afford?  GM can and has had the law routinely changed to suit
GM.  

When it was in Bill Gates interest to crush OS-2, cheap counterfeit windows
flooded the market.  Now that it is not - the software police are out in force
and MS openly states that it intends to have the 100,000 $ prescribed by law
fines levied on individuals to end the practice.  Bill Gates can and is taking
everything including the house of anyone they catch.

Before you start to whine and snivel about rights - think campaign
contributions.  How many bucks to how many Klintonian officials campaigns can
you fatten vs GM.   Not fair?  - who said GM or life or God was fair?

And do not forget that the tax paid gnomes and drones of the evil empire
AmeriKa will gladly crush you with the full weight and force of law if it
pleases their masters.   Think not - remember Janet Reno's barbecue where 84
people found out what happens when thief religion was not BATF approved.

Am I cynical - absolutely.  Do I disapprove - absolutely NOT.   Do it, enjoy
the holiday - but don't be surprised when Cubic Dollars descend to end the
practice.

1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"

Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Tue Jan 26 15:46:03 1999
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:46:03 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32833.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The switch pitch convertor was used to replace low gear of the four speed
hydramatic transmission when GM upgraded the design to the "Turbo-Hydromatic"
and was available only with the 400 and only on the heavier cars.  

Not so much a starting gear as a "passing" gear.  Nice smooth "downshift"
unlike shifting gears - so as to not disturb the passengers and simply
smoothly allow a nice increase in power to swoop around the peasants.

Properly done it can save a lot of wear and tear on transmissions etc.  

My dream would be a switch pitch that would lock up. Then could have a heavy
duty and economical xmission.

1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"

Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From realsquash at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 26 16:21:45 1999
From: realsquash at yahoo.com (andy quaas)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:21:45 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32834.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Scully agrees with that one Mulder.


---Robert Harris <bob at bobthecomputerguy.com> wrote:
>
> The question of your rights to hack GM or other ECU's vs the
Manufacturers
> boil down to two words -  Cubic Dollars.   If or when it is
perceived by GM et
> al to be in GM's interest to end the practice, it will end.   GM has
> historically crushed competition without regard to anything other
than it was
> good for GM.  Count on it.
> 
> Start with sheer absolute weight of lawyers - how many thousand can
you afford
> to defend with?   Then if you do start to get an edge - how many cubic
> lobbyist can you afford?  GM can and has had the law routinely
changed to suit
> GM.  
> 
> When it was in Bill Gates interest to crush OS-2, cheap counterfeit
windows
> flooded the market.  Now that it is not - the software police are
out in force
> and MS openly states that it intends to have the 100,000 $
prescribed by law
> fines levied on individuals to end the practice.  Bill Gates can and
is taking
> everything including the house of anyone they catch.
> 
> Before you start to whine and snivel about rights - think campaign
> contributions.  How many bucks to how many Klintonian officials
campaigns can
> you fatten vs GM.   Not fair?  - who said GM or life or God was fair?
> 
> And do not forget that the tax paid gnomes and drones of the evil
empire
> AmeriKa will gladly crush you with the full weight and force of law
if it
> pleases their masters.   Think not - remember Janet Reno's barbecue
where 84
> people found out what happens when thief religion was not BATF
approved.
> 
> Am I cynical - absolutely.  Do I disapprove - absolutely NOT.   Do
it, enjoy
> the holiday - but don't be surprised when Cubic Dollars descend to
end the
> practice.
> 
> 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
> 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
> 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
> 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"
> 
> Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Tue Jan 26 16:38:25 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:38:25 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
Message-ID: <mailman.32835.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If you don't mind I,ll pop in with my experience with my 82 Trans Am Turbo
350C  with lock up converter.  A lock up converter will 
fit on a regular turbo hydro but it wont operate in the lock up mode because
the 350C Trans has a small shaft inside the main 
splined shaft. The ECM sends voltage to a solenoid in the Trans and the
solenoid applies fluid to the small shaft pushing it out.
I cut the converter open to see how the lock up worked and found the shaft
pushes a drum with friction material on the outer
edge of the drum against the converter housing that is bolted to the
flywheel causing a lock up. The switch pitch converter has
a stator with the fins on pins that can rotate a fixed amount. Normal pitch
would be say 17 degrees. When you mash the throttle and hit the microswitch
a solenoid in the Trans puts fluid into the hollow input shaft into a
passage in the converter and into the stator
this moves the fins to a 30 degree pitch causing more torque multiplication.
At cruising speed you go back to the 17 degree pitch to save gas. I don't
know if the upshift dropped out the fluid to get back to the 17 degree or
not. Please note the degrees of pitch are for example only I don't recall
the exact numbers.                Don


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Gwyn Reedy [SMTP:mgr at mgrcorp.com]
> Sent:	Tuesday, January 26, 1999 9:11 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	RE: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
> 
> Thanks for your response Max, and Shannen too.
> 
> Time to admit some ignorance. Haven't taken apart an automatic since I
> rebuilt a powerglide back in the 70's.  Have driven Buicks with Dynaflow,
> and a 66 Buick with 2 speed torque converter (my mom's car back then) and
> various TH350s and TH400s and the 4l60E in my Impala.
> 
> Was under the impression that you can't put a locking torque converter on
> a
> TH-350 or 400 because there is some kind of mechanical device (rod or
> sleeve) that is in the trans and activates the locking of the clutches in
> the converter. Seems like it would have to be that or else some kind of
> slip
> rings to get electricity into the converter to lock an electrical clutch.
> 
> So what I'm asking is if the mechanism to switch the variable pitch torque
> converter is similar enough to the mechanism of the locking torque
> converter
> to be used for the latter. Not concerned about how the decision to switch
> pitch or to lock comes about, but how does it get transmitted into the
> converter.
> 
> Reason for the interest: I have a big block pickup with TH-400 and 3.08
> rear
> end. 4l80's are very expensive but is what I'd really like to have. If I
> could get a locking converter to work on the truck I might spring for an
> aux
> overdrive unit to mount behind the automatic and put in a 4.11 rear.
> 
> Do you have a reference to a site or book that explains the variable pitch
> setup?
> 
> Gwyn Reedy
> Brandon, Florida
> mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]
> 
> On Behalf Of
> > Guenther,Max
> > Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 1:05 PM
> > To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'
> > Subject: RE: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
> >
> >
> > As for control I just used a cheap micro switch.  looked cheesy but
> > works great!
> >
> > >----------
> > >From: 	Shannen Durphey[SMTP:shannen at grolen.com]
> > >Reply To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > >Sent: 	Monday, January 25, 1999 11:56 AM
> > >To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > >Subject: 	Re: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
> > >
> > >Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Coupla questions.
> > >>
> > >> Does any aftermarket vendor provide custom stall ratios on the
> variable
> > >> pitch converters?
> > >>
> > >At one time Kenne Bell did.  Looks like rebuilt/strengthened factory
> > >converters, two styles.  1800/2600 rpm, and 1600/2400 rpm stall
> > >speeds.
> > >Kenne Bell, 10743 Bell Court, Rancho Cucamonga, California 91730;
> > >(909) 941-6646.
> > >
> > >> What mechanism is used to control the pitch switch? Could that
> > be adapted
> > >>to
> > >> allow control of the clutch in a locking converter?
> > >>
> > >Old stuff, used in 65-67 Buick and Olds.  Mechanical switches close
> > >circuit, switches to high stall at idle, and at 70%+ throttle
> > >opening.  Electrically, it's opposite the TCC.  Original switches and
> > >linkage are tough to locate, might as well use a manual switch.
> > >
> > >> Gwyn Reedy
> > >> Brandon, Florida
> > >> mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com
> > >>
> > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > >> > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Greg
> > >> > Hermann
> > >> > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:50 PM
> > >> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > >> > Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter
> > should be
> > >> > >connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain
> manual
> > >> > >control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from
> 455
> > >> > >points dizzy.
> > >> >
> > >> > Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets
> > forgotten--Anybody know
> > >>of
> > >> > any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or
> > whether such an
> > >> > idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching
> > the pitch to
> > >> > let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards, Greg
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Shannen
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >
> > >
> >


From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 26 16:52:22 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:52:22 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
Message-ID: <mailman.32836.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com <EFISYSTEMS at aol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 4:04 AM
Subject: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747

And then do what with the extra injector connection?.
As I read it he wanted to fire a single injector.
747 has two final drivers, 165 with it's single driver seemed to
be a more appropriate candidate.
   I still say for someone "new" to this, and with the limited amount
of domained info., starting with a ecm used for a similiar application,
is the only way to go.

  The only code I've actually seen used in 4-6-8 cylinder
applications, would at least tend to say to me there is more
to it than what you've said.
Cheers
Bruce



>I hate to blow it for the rest of us that know but in a 747 and others just
>get a calpak from a 4 cyl(ex. S-10) and plug it in to a 747.....its just a
>resistor network that gets the processor to understand the ticks while
>cranking that it's a 4 cyl......then make sure you change the cyl select in
>the lookup tables so the "timing" is correct......blah blah and then some
>-Carl Summers
>
>In a message dated 1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nacelp at bright.net
>writes:
>
><< Subj: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
> Date: 1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
> From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
> Sender: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>
>
>
> I knew, you knew that, well maybe a couple other guys,do
> Bruce
>
>
> >>  Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?.
> >>  Bruce
> >None..
> >Mike V
>
>
>  >>
>



From oleg at usm.uni-muenchen.de  Tue Jan 26 17:03:40 1999
From: oleg at usm.uni-muenchen.de (Oleg Gusev)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:03:40 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32837.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Robert Harris wrote:
> 
> When it was in Bill Gates interest to crush OS-2, cheap counterfeit windows
> flooded the market.  Now that it is not - the software police are out in force
> and MS openly states that it intends to have the 100,000 $ prescribed by law
> fines levied on individuals to end the practice.  Bill Gates can and is taking
> everything including the house of anyone they catch.
>
 
More and more people today run Linux and even some big corporations
support Open Source Software.

 Oleg.

-- 
AlphaBIOS message: 
"You have selected to switch to a different operating system.
 This computer will no longer be able to run Windows NT."


From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Tue Jan 26 17:34:08 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:34:08 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32838.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Robert Harris wrote:

> The switch pitch convertor was used to replace low gear of the four speed
> hydramatic transmission when GM upgraded the design to the "Turbo-Hydromatic"
> and was available only with the 400 and only on the heavier cars.  
> 
> Not so much a starting gear as a "passing" gear.  Nice smooth "downshift"
> unlike shifting gears - so as to not disturb the passengers and simply
> smoothly allow a nice increase in power to swoop around the peasants.
> 
VP convertors did give a noticeable diiference at lower speeds and they
were easily rewired to be switched low/high at will. Oddly enough, their
reason for existence was to reduce creep when idling in gear with the car
stopped.




From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 26 17:49:50 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:49:50 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
Message-ID: <mailman.32839.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> 
> Thanks for your response Max, and Shannen too.
> 
> Time to admit some ignorance. Haven't taken apart an automatic since I
> rebuilt a powerglide back in the 70's.  Have driven Buicks with Dynaflow,
> and a 66 Buick with 2 speed torque converter (my mom's car back then) and
> various TH350s and TH400s and the 4l60E in my Impala.
> 
> Was under the impression that you can't put a locking torque converter on a
> TH-350 or 400 because there is some kind of mechanical device (rod or
> sleeve) that is in the trans and activates the locking of the clutches in
> the converter. Seems like it would have to be that or else some kind of slip
> rings to get electricity into the converter to lock an electrical clutch.
> 
> So what I'm asking is if the mechanism to switch the variable pitch torque
> converter is similar enough to the mechanism of the locking torque converter
> to be used for the latter. Not concerned about how the decision to switch
> pitch or to lock comes about, but how does it get transmitted into the
> converter.
> 
> Reason for the interest: I have a big block pickup with TH-400 and 3.08 rear
> end. 4l80's are very expensive but is what I'd really like to have. If I
> could get a locking converter to work on the truck I might spring for an aux
> overdrive unit to mount behind the automatic and put in a 4.11 rear.
> 
> Do you have a reference to a site or book that explains the variable pitch
> setup?
> 
The reference of preference is "How to Work With and Modify the Turbo
Hydramatic 400 Transmission" by Ron sessions.  ISBN 0-87938-267-8 
Hopefully, there's an updated edition which includes the 4L80E.

Both the TCC and the variable pitch mechanisms are hydraulically
actuated through the stator shaft. The stall speeds in the VP are
changed by changing the angle of the stator blades.  The TCC is
applied by forcing a large piston with a thin layer of friction
material against the inside of the converter housing.  The  reason
that a THM350 tcc type converter won't work on the non tcc versions is
that the hydraulic passages and controls aren't present.  This is
assuming that the converter will even fit.  Hydraulically, there are
some similarities.  It's the mechanical problems you have to overcome,
like mismatched splines and drilling hardened shafts and making
auxiliary valve bodies.  I remember considering looking into using the
tcc type 350 converter on the variable pitch 400 pump, but I've since
found I'm satisfied with the v.p. converter.  In the 60's, the general
public didn't like the switch pitch, and GM dropped it.  Twenty years
later, the TCC was forced down our throats and we learned to live with
it.  Compared to the early TCC cars, the switch pitch is a dream to
run.

Now for your situation...  There's a THM350 with a TCC.  If your truck
is for fun and light duty usage, you could switch to a THM350. This
would also free up some horses.  Or maybe replace the trans gear set
for lower 1st and 2nd gear ratios.  They're available for both 350 and
400 trannys.  As far as putting a TCC on your non tcc trans, I don't
know of any easy solution.  If I were going to do it, I'd start by
finding out which parts differ between the 400 and 4L80E, and why, and
go from there.  I won't say it can't be done.  With enough time and
money, anything's possible.

Shannen

> Gwyn Reedy
> Brandon, Florida
> mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]
> 
> On Behalf Of
> > Guenther,Max
> > Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 1:05 PM
> > To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'
> > Subject: RE: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
> >
> >
> > As for control I just used a cheap micro switch.  looked cheesy but
> > works great!
> >
> > >----------
> > >From:        Shannen Durphey[SMTP:shannen at grolen.com]
> > >Reply To:    diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > >Sent:        Monday, January 25, 1999 11:56 AM
> > >To:  diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > >Subject:     Re: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
> > >
> > >Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Coupla questions.
> > >>
> > >> Does any aftermarket vendor provide custom stall ratios on the variable
> > >> pitch converters?
> > >>
> > >At one time Kenne Bell did.  Looks like rebuilt/strengthened factory
> > >converters, two styles.  1800/2600 rpm, and 1600/2400 rpm stall
> > >speeds.
> > >Kenne Bell, 10743 Bell Court, Rancho Cucamonga, California 91730;
> > >(909) 941-6646.
> > >
> > >> What mechanism is used to control the pitch switch? Could that
> > be adapted
> > >>to
> > >> allow control of the clutch in a locking converter?
> > >>
> > >Old stuff, used in 65-67 Buick and Olds.  Mechanical switches close
> > >circuit, switches to high stall at idle, and at 70%+ throttle
> > >opening.  Electrically, it's opposite the TCC.  Original switches and
> > >linkage are tough to locate, might as well use a manual switch.
> > >
> > >> Gwyn Reedy
> > >> Brandon, Florida
> > >> mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com
> > >>
> > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > >> > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Greg
> > >> > Hermann
> > >> > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:50 PM
> > >> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > >> > Subject: Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Was just thinking yesterday that the switch pitch converter
> > should be
> > >> > >connected to tcc control , and detent solenoid should remain manual
> > >> > >control.  BTW, 350 Buick HEI works, but must use drive gear from 455
> > >> > >points dizzy.
> > >> >
> > >> > Ahh--dangerous thoughts, and hardware that gets
> > forgotten--Anybody know
> > >>of
> > >> > any experience racing with switch pitch TH-400's????  Or
> > whether such an
> > >> > idea ever got tried with turbo motors??? :-) (Like switching
> > the pitch to
> > >> > let it rev up into the boost QUICKLY???)
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards, Greg
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Shannen
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >
> > >
> >



From alaint at cgocable.ca  Tue Jan 26 18:07:01 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:07:01 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32840.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> turbocharging a 93 cavalier/2.2l....

wonder if my brother would be interrested in this (he does have a 93 2.2l
cavalier).....

Alain Toussaint
Drummondville
Quebec,Canada
alaint at cgocable.ca





From kiec0014 at tc.umn.edu  Tue Jan 26 18:49:10 1999
From: kiec0014 at tc.umn.edu (Mark Kiecker)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:49:10 -0500
Subject: Methanol Injectors 
Message-ID: <mailman.32841.1369893297.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I have fuel injected my Honda motorcycle that runs on methanol, M85. 
The injectors I am using are BOSCH part number 0280155715, they run at
24#/hr.  They also make meth injectors that run at 29#/hr, but I haven't
needed them yet.
Hope this helps you out.


From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Tue Jan 26 19:38:48 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:38:48 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32842.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'd have to agree.  I did not know what it was for in my 63 Riviera.
Substituted a 65 Riv engine and trans and did not connect the Variable
pitch switch.  Had to idle it up kinda high so it would idle in gear.
Chirped everytime I went from park to drive.  Once I found out what it
was it turned out to be very smooth.

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Jim Davies [SMTP:jimd at vcc.bc.ca]
>Sent:	Tuesday, January 26, 1999 12:34 PM
>To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject:	Re: Switch Pitch
>
>
>
>On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Robert Harris wrote:
>
>> The switch pitch convertor was used to replace low gear of the four speed
>> hydramatic transmission when GM upgraded the design to the
>>"Turbo-Hydromatic"
>> and was available only with the 400 and only on the heavier cars.  
>> 
>> Not so much a starting gear as a "passing" gear.  Nice smooth "downshift"
>> unlike shifting gears - so as to not disturb the passengers and simply
>> smoothly allow a nice increase in power to swoop around the peasants.
>> 
>VP convertors did give a noticeable diiference at lower speeds and they
>were easily rewired to be switched low/high at will. Oddly enough, their
>reason for existence was to reduce creep when idling in gear with the car
>stopped.
>
>


From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 26 19:43:56 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:43:56 -0500
Subject: Non list-chasing ghosts.
Message-ID: <mailman.32843.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I'm currently helping a guy put together an engine for an antique
>stock car.  In the process, I've met several people who bragged about
>these cams.  I'm curious about them now, and want to throw some
>numbers into my engine simulations.  Seems like they were pretty hot,
>and now you don't even hear about RB.
>
>Since you're on the line, know of any reasonable sources for a set of
>fuelie heade?  Gotta be straight plug.
>Shannen

Hi Shannen---

Said it before, mebbe you missed it--RB is still in business, somewhere in
MD. Gotta phone # buried somewhere. Jim is well aware of newer tech stuff,
not a ghost or dinosaur at all.

Regards, Greg
>
>EFISYSTEMS at aol.com wrote:
>>
>> No offense intended Shannen,,,,, but what about newer lobe technology!!!!!!
>> -Carl Summers
>>




From pford at qnx.com  Tue Jan 26 20:36:48 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:36:48 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32844.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Guenther,Max wrote:

sounds like the new tc's have much more slippage, is that a correct 
assumption?? and the lockup tc is an attemp to restore what was lost
( I was a mechanic at a bmw,saab,subaru dealer in the 80's and live in 
car hell -> salted roads so I never got my hands on one of these)

> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:34:34 -0500
> From: Guenther,Max <Mguenther at ASCO.COM>
> To: "'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'"
     <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Subject: RE: Switch Pitch
> 
> I'd have to agree.  I did not know what it was for in my 63 Riviera.
> Substituted a 65 Riv engine and trans and did not connect the Variable
> pitch switch.  Had to idle it up kinda high so it would idle in gear.
> Chirped everytime I went from park to drive.  Once I found out what it
> was it turned out to be very smooth.
> 
> >
> >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Robert Harris wrote:
> >
> >> The switch pitch convertor was used to replace low gear of the four speed
> >> hydramatic transmission when GM upgraded the design to the
> >>"Turbo-Hydromatic"
> >> and was available only with the 400 and only on the heavier cars.  
> >> 
> >> Not so much a starting gear as a "passing" gear.  Nice smooth "downshift"
> >> unlike shifting gears - so as to not disturb the passengers and simply
> >> smoothly allow a nice increase in power to swoop around the peasants.
> >> 
> >VP convertors did give a noticeable diiference at lower speeds and they
> >were easily rewired to be switched low/high at will. Oddly enough, their
> >reason for existence was to reduce creep when idling in gear with the car
> >stopped.
> >
> >
> 

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From mgr at mgrcorp.com  Tue Jan 26 20:45:33 1999
From: mgr at mgrcorp.com (Gwyn Reedy)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:45:33 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32845.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

You learn a lot - I always figured the switch pitch was to help the Buick
dealers who had been selling shiftless Dynaflow for 15 years. Since the only
vehicle I had seen it on was a Buick Special (A-Body).

By the way, toward the end of the DynaFlow era, how many vane positions
could the converter be set to? Three at least. Or was it some kind of
infinitely variable position?

Interesting technology.

I agree with the gent who wold like a variable pitch, locking converter.
Would be quite handy.

Gwyn Reedy
Brandon, Florida
mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Jim Davies
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 12:34 PM
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Switch Pitch
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Robert Harris wrote:
>
> > The switch pitch converter was used to replace low gear of the
> four speed
> > hydramatic transmission when GM upgraded the design to the
> "Turbo-Hydromatic"
> > and was available only with the 400 and only on the heavier cars.
> >
> > Not so much a starting gear as a "passing" gear.  Nice smooth
> "downshift"
> > unlike shifting gears - so as to not disturb the passengers and simply
> > smoothly allow a nice increase in power to swoop around the peasants.
> >
> VP convertors did give a noticeable diiference at lower speeds and they
> were easily rewired to be switched low/high at will. Oddly enough, their
> reason for existence was to reduce creep when idling in gear with the car
> stopped.
>
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 26 20:50:55 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:50:55 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32846.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Scully agrees with that one Mulder.

Yep--and remember that John Adams (yes, that one) argued that the Bill of
Rights was unnecessary cuz "NO JURY WOULD EVER CONVICT ANYBODY UNDER AN
UNREASONABLE, UNJUST LAW, ANYWAY!"  Jury nullification was an accepted part
of English (and thus American, unless you are from Louisiana) law from when
the Magna Carta was signed until the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Mellons,
Morgans, Harrimans, etc. told the gummint that it should henceforth be
called "JURY LAWLESSNESS!!" The framers considered the jury of peers to be
the ultimate check and balance in their newly designed system of
government. Really, the law on this subject has NOT changed, they just try
to tell us that it has!!! Jurors have the right to judge the law as well as
the facts in any case before them! Think about it!!

Regards, Greg
>
>
>---Robert Harris <bob at bobthecomputerguy.com> wrote:
>>
>> The question of your rights to hack GM or other ECU's vs the
>Manufacturers
>> boil down to two words -  Cubic Dollars.   If or when it is
>perceived by GM et
>> al to be in GM's interest to end the practice, it will end.   GM has
>> historically crushed competition without regard to anything other
>than it was
>> good for GM.  Count on it.
>>
>> Start with sheer absolute weight of lawyers - how many thousand can
>you afford
>> to defend with?   Then if you do start to get an edge - how many cubic
>> lobbyist can you afford?  GM can and has had the law routinely
>changed to suit
>> GM.
>>
>> When it was in Bill Gates interest to crush OS-2, cheap counterfeit
>windows
>> flooded the market.  Now that it is not - the software police are
>out in force
>> and MS openly states that it intends to have the 100,000 $
>prescribed by law
>> fines levied on individuals to end the practice.  Bill Gates can and
>is taking
>> everything including the house of anyone they catch.
>>
>> Before you start to whine and snivel about rights - think campaign
>> contributions.  How many bucks to how many Klintonian officials
>campaigns can
>> you fatten vs GM.   Not fair?  - who said GM or life or God was fair?
>>
>> And do not forget that the tax paid gnomes and drones of the evil
>empire
>> AmeriKa will gladly crush you with the full weight and force of law
>if it
>> pleases their masters.   Think not - remember Janet Reno's barbecue
>where 84
>> people found out what happens when thief religion was not BATF
>approved.
>>
>> Am I cynical - absolutely.  Do I disapprove - absolutely NOT.   Do
>it, enjoy
>> the holiday - but don't be surprised when Cubic Dollars descend to
>end the
>> practice.
>>
>> 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
>> 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
>> 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
>> 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"
>>
>> Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From gderian at cybergate.net  Tue Jan 26 21:01:36 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:01:36 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32847.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Reducing pumping losses at cruise is a key element in improving fuel
economy.  Some tricks like V-8,6,4 were complicated and had many control
problems.  Taller gearing achieved some improvements but dropping cruise rpm
into the slip range of torque converters negated much of the improvements.
At first, reducing converter stall speed was used but performance really
suffered.  The next development was a TCC which permitted a higher stall
speed when needed but little or no slip during cruise.  Once TCCs were
available, overdrive automatics could be used to improve economy even more.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>sounds like the new tc's have much more slippage, is that a correct
>assumption?? and the lockup tc is an attemp to restore what was lost
>( I was a mechanic at a bmw,saab,subaru dealer in the 80's and live in
>car hell -> salted roads so I never got my hands on one of these)
>
>Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
>QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
>(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews
>(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 26 21:10:05 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:10:05 -0500
Subject: Non list-chasing ghosts.
Message-ID: <mailman.32848.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Yup, I caught it.  Thanks.  Found the phone # and address and
forwarded it to the car owner, too.  This is more of a hobby to me. 
With these antique stock cars, the guys want to run them "just like
they were".  Which means, in some cases, exact copies of the original
parts, and the stories to go with them.  I got interested in the
stories, I'm playing with the numbers in desktop dyno, just trying to
"see" what they were like.  It's just for fun.  
Shannen

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> >I'm currently helping a guy put together an engine for an antique
> >stock car.  In the process, I've met several people who bragged about
> >these cams.  I'm curious about them now, and want to throw some
> >numbers into my engine simulations.  Seems like they were pretty hot,
> >and now you don't even hear about RB.
> >
> >Since you're on the line, know of any reasonable sources for a set of
> >fuelie heade?  Gotta be straight plug.
> >Shannen
> 
> Hi Shannen---
> 
> Said it before, mebbe you missed it--RB is still in business, somewhere in
> MD. Gotta phone # buried somewhere. Jim is well aware of newer tech stuff,
> not a ghost or dinosaur at all.
> 
> Regards, Greg
> >
> >EFISYSTEMS at aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> No offense intended Shannen,,,,, but what about newer lobe technology!!!!!!
> >> -Carl Summers
> >>



From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Tue Jan 26 21:16:37 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:16:37 -0500
Subject: Non list-chasing ghosts.
Message-ID: <mailman.32849.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Shannen,
        If we're talking about some 461 casting double hump heads, you might
be in luck....let me know...
-Carl Summers

In a message dated 1/26/99 2:44:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shannen at grolen.com writes:

<< Subj:	 Re: Non list-chasing ghosts.
 Date:	1/26/99 2:44:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 I'm currently helping a guy put together an engine for an antique
 stock car.  In the process, I've met several people who bragged about
 these cams.  I'm curious about them now, and want to throw some
 numbers into my engine simulations.  Seems like they were pretty hot,
 and now you don't even hear about RB.
 
 Since you're on the line, know of any reasonable sources for a set of
 fuelie heade?  Gotta be straight plug.
 Shannen
 
 EFISYSTEMS at aol.com wrote:
 > 
 > No offense intended Shannen,,,,, but what about newer lobe technology!!!!!!
 > -Carl Summers
 >
 
  >>


From cbrooks1 at tqci.net  Tue Jan 26 21:17:38 1999
From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:17:38 -0500
Subject: TPI on a 406
Message-ID: <mailman.32850.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

One thing your going to need is a TPI manifold off of an 85 or 86 engine,
unless you're willing to do a little grinding on the four bolt holes in the
middle that hold the manifold to the head.

Charles Brooks




----- Original Message -----
From: <AJLegere at aol.com>
To: <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: TPI on a 406


>Just a short comment on yr 'picked up'TPI.  I've gor an '87 TPI setup for
the
>exact same application.  The donor car was an '87 Firebird 350 with a '165.
>
>AJL
>



From goflo at pacbell.net  Tue Jan 26 21:19:46 1999
From: goflo at pacbell.net (goflo at pacbell.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:19:46 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32851.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

FWIW, "jury nullification" is explicitly recognized in California's
constitution. Nonetheless, the common practice is for judges to ask 
prospective jurors if they will follow the instructions of the court
in matters of law. Those who refuse to agree to this are not allowed
to serve.

Jack

Greg Hermann wrote:
> Yep--and remember that John Adams (yes, that one) argued that the Bill of
> Rights was unnecessary cuz "NO JURY WOULD EVER CONVICT ANYBODY UNDER AN
> UNREASONABLE, UNJUST LAW, ANYWAY!"  Jury nullification was an accepted part
> of English (and thus American, unless you are from Louisiana) law from when
> the Magna Carta was signed until the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Mellons,
> Morgans, Harrimans, etc. told the gummint that it should henceforth be
> called "JURY LAWLESSNESS!!" The framers considered the jury of peers to be
> the ultimate check and balance in their newly designed system of
> government. Really, the law on this subject has NOT changed, they just try
> to tell us that it has!!! Jurors have the right to judge the law as well as
> the facts in any case before them! Think about it!!



From cbrooks1 at tqci.net  Tue Jan 26 21:27:07 1999
From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:27:07 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32852.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Yes the tables were arrived at by a long involved process. Just as the curve
in the distributor was arrived at after long painstaking extensive testing.
The only difference between the two is the method of achieving the curve. I
spoke with the ex-patent attorney at work. He said basically the same thing
as one of the previous posts. It all comes down to  $MONEY$ IF GM decides
that this is hurting their bottom line then they'll pursue it. He mentioned
that in 15 years of working in Patent law he had seen *4* cases that money
had not played an issue in. He stated that in almost all cases the
person/organization that won the suit was the one with the money to keep the
case in court the longest regardless of what the actual point of conflict in
design was.

Interesting, don't you think?

Charles Brooks


----- Original Message -----
From: Orin Eman <orin at wolfenet.com>
To: <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: PROMs and Copyrights...


>
>> Actually, they are not modifying code...
>> They are modifying look-up tables.  There is no copyright or patent that
>> covers timing curves, fuel curves etc... if there was, changing the
advance
>> weights in your old distributor ignition car would have been illegal.
>
>Perhaps not for a simple curve, but the tables in ECUs are generated
>from extended testing of the engine and are not simple curves.
>



From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Jan 26 21:41:20 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:41:20 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32853.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Pat Ford wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Guenther,Max wrote:
> 
> sounds like the new tc's have much more slippage, is that a correct
> assumption?? and the lockup tc is an attemp to restore what was lost
> ( I was a mechanic at a bmw,saab,subaru dealer in the 80's and live in
> car hell -> salted roads so I never got my hands on one of these)
> 
The tcc is an attempt to reduce 10% or so slippage present in the
converter.  Where is car hell located?
Shannen



From nacelp at bright.net  Tue Jan 26 22:12:33 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:12:33 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32854.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hmm, ya got me wondering now, cause mine wouldn't trigger very easy.  Took
12v as I recall..
  Also, the KS wouldn't it be very "spikish" in nature, rather than a
square wave, unless the on duration was very short.
Bruce

>My results seem to be a little different then what you have found, but I'm
>not done yet. My first step was to hook the knock sensor output up to the
>scope and rap on it with a metal rod. It looks just like you would expect
>from a microphone, with a max output of ~3v (with a 'good' strike).
>
>So, the ESC module is on the bench, +12v supply, scope on output, and
>a function generator (sine wave), on the input. The ESC module is a HKM
>from a '87 305 Chevy van.
>
>It appears as though the module responds mostly to a rapid change in
signal.
>Either a sudden increase in amplitude, or a sudden change in frequency.
>It appears that the freq range need be in the 2KHz to 17.5 KHz range.
>
>I haven't found a 'sweet' spot that would cause a continuous knock signal
>output. The max p-p volts input that I've been testing with is 2.5v. If I
really
>crank up the volts, I can get a continuous output at almost any input freq.
>
>For the curious amongst us, the circuit is built on a thin ceramic plate
>using silk-screened on resisters, some SMD capacitors, and a single
>SMD chip (18 pin). The board was 'encapsulated' with a clear jelly like
>substance that cleaned off with a toothbrush. The resisters are laser
>trimmed for value.
>
>BobR.
>
>Who at this point is thinking that verifying the above on another module
>would be a good idea. No sense in doing all this with a module that might
>be/is bad.
>
>Who is also thinking that a tape recording on a running auto, of the
>knock sensor 'sounds' like something to try.
>
>
>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>
>>At one time I had a dozen or so esc on the bench, what exactly do you need
>>to know?.
>>In crash testing them, using a 555 to generate the KS they all seemed to
>>listen
>>to 2 frequencies.
>>If you want I think I got the diagrams for the 555s to generate the KS
>>signals.
>>The 555 generators kinda overwhelm the ESC so the results aren't terribly
>>accurate, if your tuning them.
>>Bruce
>
>BobR wrote:
>
>>>Who now has a 305 truck ESC module on the bench, trying to find
>>>out the how/what/why/where of this unit.
>
>
>--
>
>



From alaint at cgocable.ca  Tue Jan 26 23:04:00 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:04:00 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32855.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Where is car hell located?

up from the usa-cnada border 'till north pole

> Shannen
> 
> 

Alain Toussaint
Drummondville
Quebec,Canada
alaint at cgocable.ca




From bearbvd at sni.net  Tue Jan 26 23:33:02 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:33:02 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32856.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Pat Ford wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Guenther,Max wrote:
>>
>> sounds like the new tc's have much more slippage, is that a correct
>> assumption?? and the lockup tc is an attemp to restore what was lost
>> ( I was a mechanic at a bmw,saab,subaru dealer in the 80's and live in
>> car hell -> salted roads so I never got my hands on one of these)
>>
>The tcc is an attempt to reduce 10% or so slippage present in the
>converter.  Where is car hell located?

I always thought it was at Colorado Fuel & Iron Co. (CF&I Steel) in Pueblo,
Colorado--where they make a lot of them into nails, spikes, and barbed
wire!! :-)

Regards, Greg

>Shannen




From AL8001 at aol.com  Tue Jan 26 23:58:03 1999
From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:58:03 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch (Caddy 8-6-4)
Message-ID: <mailman.32857.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 99-01-26 16:04:46 EST, gderian at cybergate.net writes:
< cut>
> Some tricks like V-8,6,4 were complicated and had many control
>problems.
<cut>


>From what I recall, the Caddy V8-6-4 (368 CID ?) wes doomed because of:

early electronic systems couldn't keep up with the engine.

The engine size was just too small, had they used the system on a 425, 472, or
501 CID engine it may of had a chance.

BTW, the Caddy system used solenoids that pulled circular wedge plates under
the rocker arm bolts.  ( the rocker arms were the single bolt type)  This let
the rockers flop up and down leaving both valves closed. 

I'm pretty sure the FI system was TBI.  It was definetly MAP.  

Harold


From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 27 00:56:39 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:56:39 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch (Caddy 8-6-4)
Message-ID: <mailman.32858.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: AL8001 at aol.com <AL8001 at aol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Re: Switch Pitch (Caddy 8-6-4)

gderian at cybergate.net writes:
>< cut>
>> Some tricks like V-8,6,4 were complicated and had many control
>>problems.
><cut>
>>From what I recall, the Caddy V8-6-4 (368 CID ?) wes doomed because of:
>early electronic systems couldn't keep up with the engine.

My recollection, was a poor design done cheaply, hoping later
software would cure a hardware problem, needless to say none
of it worked right.   I still chuckle with the idea of Caddy having VD,
variable displacement.
   To me it was like someone was pulling plug wires off as ya drove.
Some folks thought it was seamless.,,,,,,,,,,
Bruce
>




From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Wed Jan 27 02:25:49 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:25:49 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32859.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> > covers timing curves, fuel curves etc... if there was, changing the
-> advance > weights in your old distributor ignition car would have
-> been illegal.

 If it's a vehicle that falls under Federal smog regulations, changing
the advance weights in the distributor *is* illegal.  The Fed doesn't
bother to enforce their own regs; they pressure the local governments
into being the bad guys.

 In most states, changing tire size can be illegal.  In my state, for
example, you can run a taller tire than stock, but not a shorter one.
Why?  Nobody knows.  Nobody enforces it, either.  But it's there on the
books should they decide to mess with you.

==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                


From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Wed Jan 27 02:25:52 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:25:52 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32860.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> Actually, they are not modifying code...
-> They are modifying look-up tables.  There is no copyright or patent
-> that covers timing curves, fuel curves etc...

 US and European copyright law doesn't distinguish between "code" and
"data."
                                                                 


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Wed Jan 27 02:35:46 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:35:46 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32861.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Dave Williams wrote:

> 
> -> Actually, they are not modifying code...
> -> They are modifying look-up tables.  There is no copyright or patent
> -> that covers timing curves, fuel curves etc...
> 
>  US and European copyright law doesn't distinguish between "code" and
> "data."
>                                                                  

The real question is could someone buy say 100 books, and modify a
word and resell it?   I don't think this would violate copyright, and
under the same conditions buying a computer with the right to run a
given set of code, and adjusting it, should also not be a copyright
violaction.  You have right to one copy, you only have 1 copy, you
have just corrected/adjusted a byte.  Now if you sold that to others
that did not also have a legal license to run one copy (computer from
someone else other than original prom writer) then you could be in
trouble.


				Roger



From John.Andrian at usa.net  Wed Jan 27 02:50:37 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:50:37 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32862.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> Snip
> , or is there still a low-battery injector
> >pulse width correction?
> 
> yes, in the few gm ecms, I've seen there has always been a v
> correction table.
> Snip
> 
> Would anyone happen to know, an easy way to lie to the ecm to
> actually test this?.  Would something like a 1.0 ohm 10 watt
> resistor in series with the key power on or does the memory
> wire have to drop also?.
> On diacom they show a fuel pump voltage, is that the same as
> what is used on the voltage correction table?.
> Cheers
> Bruce

Not a very good idea but you could disconnect the altenator and watch as
bettery voltage went slowly downward. 
I havent even seen a gm ecu so I cant tell about the rest.
John Andrianakis.




From John.Andrian at usa.net  Wed Jan 27 02:50:38 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:50:38 -0500
Subject: Methanol compatible Injectors & LM1949
Message-ID: <mailman.32863.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> >Hi all,
> >
> >       1. I'm searching methanol (M85) compatible injectors rated at 25
> >pounds/hour. If someone have a contact or a place where to find them, let
> >me know.
> >
> Me too!!! Infact any info on methanol or ethanol compatible injectors, from
> 25# on up would be of help. Bosch?? Rochester?? Siemens?? Denso?? Lucas??
> Detailed flow info (fuel/pressure/flow)???
> 
> Regards, Greg
> >
> >       Hugo Villeneuve.

You can check with Kinsler, tel +1 248 362 1145, fax +1 248 362 1032 and
maybe RC Engineering at www.rceng.com.
As far as I know all injectors will work with alcohols- maybe you will
have to change the o-rings to EPR.?
John Andrianakis.



From trinity at golden.net  Wed Jan 27 02:56:19 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:56:19 -0500
Subject: BLCC5074 error codes
Message-ID: <mailman.32864.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Was poking around in the BLCC5074 code recently uploaded (sorry...forgot the
poster's name) and came across some malfunction codes I'm not familiar with.
Does the poster (or anyone familiar with this Holden 5L V8 (non-Chevy) BLCC
combination) know the related systems for the following codes:

17
19
26  (QDM fault maybe?)
27
36  (vacuum leak maybe?)
46  (VATS fail?)
56
57
66
72

There are a bunch of other codes in the PROM but they're not enabled in the
masks. The ones above are enabled but I'm not positive what they do.

For educational purposes only :)


--
 Mike



From GRUMPYNOMO at aol.com  Wed Jan 27 03:06:08 1999
From: GRUMPYNOMO at aol.com (GRUMPYNOMO at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:06:08 -0500
Subject: Crane Cams regular telephone number
Message-ID: <mailman.32865.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

if you are looking for Igniter systems from Crane Cams they can also be
purchased at FCECLtd at aol.com


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Wed Jan 27 04:04:24 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:04:24 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch TH-400 (was something else)
Message-ID: <mailman.32866.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Gwyn Reedy wrote:

> Was under the impression that you can't put a locking torque converter on a
> TH-350 or 400 because there is some kind of mechanical device (rod or
> sleeve) that is in the trans and activates the locking of the clutches in
> the converter. Seems like it would have to be that or else some kind of slip
> rings to get electricity into the converter to lock an electrical clutch.

There are lockup versions of the 350 and 400 (I think) depending upon the year
(late model). There were also some versions with very low stall converters for
better mileage. If you need OD, the only reasonable choice is the 4L80 (or the
700R4 for less than 450 HP or so, some even recommend the 200. They are all
lockup standard but can be fixed to run with a non-lockup converter.
Regards  Tom



From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Wed Jan 27 04:18:42 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:18:42 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32867.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Pat Ford wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Guenther,Max wrote:
> 
> sounds like the new tc's have much more slippage, is that a correct 
> assumption?? and the lockup tc is an attemp to restore what was lost

Yes, they can be looser than before because coupling-related slippage is
covered by the clutch.  First came the clutch, then came the higher stall
speeds. In the old days, tcc problems were often dealt with by side
cutting plier. Not a good idea anymore.




From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Wed Jan 27 04:24:42 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:24:42 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32868.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Gwyn Reedy wrote:

> By the way, toward the end of the DynaFlow era, how many vane positions
> could the converter be set to? Three at least. Or was it some kind of
> infinitely variable position?
> 
> I agree with the gent who wold like a variable pitch, locking converter.
> Would be quite handy.
> 
The VP convertor as used on TH400s and ST300s is a 3 element convertor
with adjustable stator vane angles. The DynoFlush was a one-speed trans
with a multi-element convertor [cant remember, about 5 elements, IIRC] it
did have a switch pitch feature but it was hydraulically actuated. Not
interchangeable...
 



From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 27 04:34:47 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:34:47 -0500
Subject: Injector reference halp needed..
Message-ID: <mailman.32869.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I got tired of the injectors flopping around so cable tied them into pairs,
and the tied each pair to a yard stick, so all are manageable now.
Rube Goldberg ain't got nothing on me........
Bruce



From mpilkent at ptw.com  Wed Jan 27 05:01:33 1999
From: mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:01:33 -0500
Subject: 92 Camaro ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.32870.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Could someone please help educate me on the 92 Camaro 3.1L V6 ECM program.
I am new to the programming scene and don't really understand the ECM
programs but I do do have a strong EE background.  What I would like to
learn is how to reprogram or program my own EEPROMs for this application.  I
remeber a message some time ago of someone offering this service to list
members??

    Can anybody give me a simple basic conversion of the ECM program so that
I might learn how these programs work.  Has anybody decoded the 92 Camaro
3.1L V6 program?  Sorry for all the questions but I have to start somewhere.

Mike



From mpilkent at ptw.com  Wed Jan 27 05:05:52 1999
From: mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:05:52 -0500
Subject: VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.32871.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Could someone tell me what functions the VSS signal might affect in the 92
3.1L V6 Camaro ECM.  The motor/ECM came off a manual tranny car and my
project car application won't have this signal available unless I install an
aftermarket speed sensor.  Do I need this signal?

Mike
V6 Opel GT



From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Wed Jan 27 05:28:49 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:28:49 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32872.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg,

That is very interesting.  Where can I get documentation on that fact?  I
am always interested in what the constitution REALLY says, rather than
some of the more <ahem> interesting interpretations that I have seen.

The next time I am called to jury duty, I would like to have in my hands
documentation that I have the right to judge the law as well as the
defendant.  That would keep me from being forced to convict someone of a
crime that shouldn't exist.

Of course, the real effect of such paperwork would probablly be to get me
excused from the jury.  I would need to find a way to keep that from
happening.

Ray Drouillard



On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:39:39 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
>>Scully agrees with that one Mulder.
>
>Yep--and remember that John Adams (yes, that one) argued that the Bill 
>of
>Rights was unnecessary cuz "NO JURY WOULD EVER CONVICT ANYBODY UNDER 
>AN
>UNREASONABLE, UNJUST LAW, ANYWAY!"  Jury nullification was an accepted 
>part
>of English (and thus American, unless you are from Louisiana) law from 
>when
>the Magna Carta was signed until the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Mellons,
>Morgans, Harrimans, etc. told the gummint that it should henceforth be
>called "JURY LAWLESSNESS!!" The framers considered the jury of peers 
>to be
>the ultimate check and balance in their newly designed system of
>government. Really, the law on this subject has NOT changed, they just 
>try
>to tell us that it has!!! Jurors have the right to judge the law as 
>well as
>the facts in any case before them! Think about it!!
>
>Regards, Greg
>>
>>
>>---Robert Harris <bob at bobthecomputerguy.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The question of your rights to hack GM or other ECU's vs the
>>Manufacturers
>>> boil down to two words -  Cubic Dollars.   If or when it is
>>perceived by GM et
>>> al to be in GM's interest to end the practice, it will end.   GM 
>has
>>> historically crushed competition without regard to anything other
>>than it was
>>> good for GM.  Count on it.
>>>
>>> Start with sheer absolute weight of lawyers - how many thousand can
>>you afford
>>> to defend with?   Then if you do start to get an edge - how many 
>cubic
>>> lobbyist can you afford?  GM can and has had the law routinely
>>changed to suit
>>> GM.
>>>
>>> When it was in Bill Gates interest to crush OS-2, cheap counterfeit
>>windows
>>> flooded the market.  Now that it is not - the software police are
>>out in force
>>> and MS openly states that it intends to have the 100,000 $
>>prescribed by law
>>> fines levied on individuals to end the practice.  Bill Gates can 
>and
>>is taking
>>> everything including the house of anyone they catch.
>>>
>>> Before you start to whine and snivel about rights - think campaign
>>> contributions.  How many bucks to how many Klintonian officials
>>campaigns can
>>> you fatten vs GM.   Not fair?  - who said GM or life or God was 
>fair?
>>>
>>> And do not forget that the tax paid gnomes and drones of the evil
>>empire
>>> AmeriKa will gladly crush you with the full weight and force of law
>>if it
>>> pleases their masters.   Think not - remember Janet Reno's barbecue
>>where 84
>>> people found out what happens when thief religion was not BATF
>>approved.
>>>
>>> Am I cynical - absolutely.  Do I disapprove - absolutely NOT.   Do
>>it, enjoy
>>> the holiday - but don't be surprised when Cubic Dollars descend to
>>end the
>>> practice.
>>>
>>> 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
>>> 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
>>> 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
>>> 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"
>>>
>>> Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore
>>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________
>>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From clive at problem.tantech.com  Wed Jan 27 05:47:03 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:47:03 -0500
Subject: Injector reference halp needed..
Message-ID: <mailman.32873.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> I got tired of the injectors flopping around so cable tied them into pairs,
> and the tied each pair to a yard stick, so all are manageable now.
> Rube Goldberg ain't got nothing on me........


careful
next thing you know you will be attaching them to spiral dowels with 
rope patterns and attaching gold leaf and ribbons

then you would have to call it the MSFIS
(Martha Stewart FI System)

Clive 


From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Wed Jan 27 06:27:16 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:27:16 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32874.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Oleg Gusev wrote:

> More and more people today run Linux and even some big corporations
> support Open Source Software.

    True.  Too bad even more people are added to the microsoft army than are linux
users.  I attended one of my girlfriends lectures on freebsd, a unix os.  The guy
stood up there in complete monotone droning for 50 minutes about how to change
directories and directory structure.  Good god, you can learn the same thing in less
than 5 min if you just jump in.  If you are familiar with dos, the principles are
similar.   Everybody else was sleeping, but I was really close to cracking.  Thank
god I'm not in computer science.

James Ballenger




From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Wed Jan 27 06:31:53 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:31:53 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32875.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Shannen Durphey wrote:

> Since this is a long term plan, it's subject to change.  Right now I'm
> thinking about the 730 ecm and factory related stuff.  'course it
> depends on the final power level of the engine.

It always seems to go up as you go along :-)

> I need to do more efi swaps that require chip changes.  One "practice" run will
> involve
> a 67 Chevelle, 7747 ecm, and Holley TBI.

    I am looking for a Holley TBI any leads would be great.  Any will do, but I was
leaning towards the projection 4di with o2 sensor.

James Ballenger




From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Wed Jan 27 06:39:55 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:39:55 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32876.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Greg Hermann wrote:

> Did the rear have a crush sleeve for preload, or positive shims?? The
> latter is a lot harder to do that to, conversions are usually available.

    I never even bothered to pull out the pinion to look.  The was like .75" of
play at the driveshaft side of the thing, it made me sick.  I figured out why
it all happened now though.

    The previous owner got the VR TH-400 and swapped it in, but the tranny
musta been 1" or more longer than the previous tranny.  When I got the car, the
tranny mount wasn't bolted down and the threads were stripped.  So I put a bolt
on the other side and bolted the thing down, I didn't even think about it.  I
figured the last guy just forgot or something.  Soon after my rear end went.
So I guess that the driveshaft  would buckle enough at the tailshaft and
u-joints to soften the blow at the pinion.  When I bolted it down, it must have
just pounded the poor rear into oblivion.  And I thought I was doing myself a
favor by hooking up the mount, damn.

James Ballenger



From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Wed Jan 27 06:44:54 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:44:54 -0500
Subject: More for the FTP....
Message-ID: <mailman.32877.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Uploaded another Holden Bin, this one is also used for a 1994/95 5L V8 Auto.

File - BMZC1766.BIN

Regards

Ross Myers



From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Wed Jan 27 06:55:28 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:55:28 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch (Caddy 8-6-4)
Message-ID: <mailman.32878.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



AL8001 at aol.com wrote:

> >From what I recall, the Caddy V8-6-4 (368 CID ?) wes doomed because of:
>
> early electronic systems couldn't keep up with the engine.

    My dad used to have one, '81 I think.  In its early years, it would switch to
8 under load 6 under most conditions and 4 when cruising.  I was VERY slow to make
changes for conditions though.
    I was just old enough to sneak out with it.  I learned to parallel park with
that thing in D.C., what a  job!  I always wanted to take the thing to a
demolition derby, but I think it was donated to charity.

    James Ballenger



From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Wed Jan 27 07:45:48 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:45:48 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32879.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi All,
       Yes,  exactly, in Calif. the judge instructs the jurors and if they
agree together that someone is right or wrong the judge can overturn it by
matter of "law" ..............it's disgusting.
-Carl Summers


In a message dated 1/26/99 1:27:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, goflo at pacbell.net
writes:

<< Subj:	 Re: Cubic Dollars
 Date:	1/26/99 1:27:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	goflo at pacbell.net
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 FWIW, "jury nullification" is explicitly recognized in California's
 constitution. Nonetheless, the common practice is for judges to ask 
 prospective jurors if they will follow the instructions of the court
 in matters of law. Those who refuse to agree to this are not allowed
 to serve.
 
 Jack
 
 Greg Hermann wrote:
 > Yep--and remember that John Adams (yes, that one) argued that the Bill of
 > Rights was unnecessary cuz "NO JURY WOULD EVER CONVICT ANYBODY UNDER AN
 > UNREASONABLE, UNJUST LAW, ANYWAY!"  Jury nullification was an accepted part
 > of English (and thus American, unless you are from Louisiana) law from when
 > the Magna Carta was signed until the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Mellons,
 > Morgans, Harrimans, etc. told the gummint that it should henceforth be
 > called "JURY LAWLESSNESS!!" The framers considered the jury of peers to be
 > the ultimate check and balance in their newly designed system of
 > government. Really, the law on this subject has NOT changed, they just try
 > to tell us that it has!!! Jurors have the right to judge the law as well as
 > the facts in any case before them! Think about it!!
 
 
  >>


From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Wed Jan 27 07:57:39 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:57:39 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32880.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I know this is non EFI but I have to say, awesome response Ray,  learn and
do.....it is truly the scope of what we all want......knowledge of what we
don't know or realize         and/or inhibiting people from taking it from us
without a fight.  2 cents
-Carl Summers


In a message dated 1/26/99 9:31:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cosmic.ray at juno.com writes:

<< Subj:	 Re: Cubic Dollars
 Date:	1/26/99 9:31:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 Greg,
 
 That is very interesting.  Where can I get documentation on that fact?  I
 am always interested in what the constitution REALLY says, rather than
 some of the more <ahem> interesting interpretations that I have seen.
 
 The next time I am called to jury duty, I would like to have in my hands
 documentation that I have the right to judge the law as well as the
 defendant.  That would keep me from being forced to convict someone of a
 crime that shouldn't exist.
 
 Of course, the real effect of such paperwork would probablly be to get me
 excused from the jury.  I would need to find a way to keep that from
 happening.
 
 Ray Drouillard
 
 
  >>


From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Jan 27 09:13:55 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:13:55 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch (Caddy 8-6-4)
Message-ID: <mailman.32881.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

James Ballenger wrote:
> 
> AL8001 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > >From what I recall, the Caddy V8-6-4 (368 CID ?) wes doomed because of:
> >
> > early electronic systems couldn't keep up with the engine.
> 
>     My dad used to have one, '81 I think.  In its early years, it would switch to
> 8 under load 6 under most conditions and 4 when cruising.  I was VERY slow to make
> changes for conditions though.
>     I was just old enough to sneak out with it.  I learned to parallel park with
> that thing in D.C., what a  job!  I always wanted to take the thing to a
> demolition derby, but I think it was donated to charity.
> 
>     James Ballenger

There was probably more charity in the accepting than the giving! 
Maybe they just didn't know what they were getting.
Shannen



From talltom at effectnet.com  Wed Jan 27 12:04:47 1999
From: talltom at effectnet.com (talltom at effectnet.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:04:47 -0500
Subject: Re cubic bucks.
Message-ID: <mailman.32882.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


In Oregon it's Article 1, section 8 of the state constitution. It sez "the jury shall
judge the law
and the fact". The hand you a note when you go into the jury pool, that while
technically
not a lie, it's the most artful job of truth stretching I've ever seen. It just so
happens that
the secretary of state was in the jury pool that I was, and I proved to him and a high
school history teacher that the jury IS the law, with a book that the secretary had
published.
What the judge asks is are you willing to follow the law, which I was, but I did not
tell him
that I knew more about than he was about to admit. You damn right I'll follow the law,
but he wouldn't like WHICH law.





From gderian at cybergate.net  Wed Jan 27 12:55:53 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:55:53 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32883.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

It is an oversimplification to call the DynaFlow a single speed
transmission.  The various elements of the torque converter were connected
to various elements of a planetary gearset.  The result is closer to a
continuously variable transmission than it is to a single speed one.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>>
>The VP convertor as used on TH400s and ST300s is a 3 element convertor
>with adjustable stator vane angles. The DynoFlush was a one-speed trans
>with a multi-element convertor [cant remember, about 5 elements, IIRC] it
>did have a switch pitch feature but it was hydraulically actuated. Not
>interchangeable...
>



From gderian at cybergate.net  Wed Jan 27 13:03:50 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:03:50 -0500
Subject: Non list-chasing ghosts.
Message-ID: <mailman.32884.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

My recollection is that Donahue used Toronado CV joints in the ends of the
axle housing to get the negative camber.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>
>(The Javelin in question was the same one that had a solid rear axle with
>about 1-1/2 degrees of negative camber on each rear wheel. This was done by
>means of (I think) a curved spline on the outer end of a full floating axle
>shaft. Pretty cute stuff. No wonder the class got sorta expensive to
>run!!!) :-)
>
>Regards, Greg
>



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Wed Jan 27 13:19:32 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:19:32 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32885.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 07:26 PM 1/26/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>-> > covers timing curves, fuel curves etc... if there was, changing the
>-> advance > weights in your old distributor ignition car would have
>-> been illegal.
>
> If it's a vehicle that falls under Federal smog regulations, changing
>the advance weights in the distributor *is* illegal.  The Fed doesn't
>bother to enforce their own regs; they pressure the local governments
>into being the bad guys.
>

But it's not copyright infringement.
===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From pford at qnx.com  Wed Jan 27 13:39:09 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:39:09 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32886.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:

> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:36:42 -0500
> From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Switch Pitch
> 
> Pat Ford wrote:
> > 
> > On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Guenther,Max wrote:
> > 
> > ( I was a mechanic at a bmw,saab,subaru dealer in the 80's and live in
> > car hell -> salted roads so I never got my hands on one of these)
> > 
> The tcc is an attempt to reduce 10% or so slippage present in the
> converter.  Where is car hell located?
> Shannen
> 

in the ottawa - kingston area of ontario Canada
( I live near kingston and commute 140 km each day)

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From rauscher at icst.com  Wed Jan 27 13:52:19 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:52:19 -0500
Subject: FW: Electronic timing advance
Message-ID: <mailman.32887.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Ah yes, this is the 64thousand dollar question, what is the KS output when
a knock occurs. Just how high (amplitude), is the signal?

Anybody out there ever look at the knock signal with a scope, and can
help us with the amplitude and possibly the period?

My scope needs 120VAC and a second person to drive whilst running it. Hmm,
I might just know someone who can help... This won't be easy, but I might give
it a go.

BobR.


Bruce wrote:

>Hmm, ya got me wondering now, cause mine wouldn't trigger very easy.  Took
>12v as I recall..
>  Also, the KS wouldn't it be very "spikish" in nature, rather than a
>square wave, unless the on duration was very short.
>Bruce

BobR wrote:

>>My results seem to be a little different then what you have found, but I'm
>>not done yet. My first step was to hook the knock sensor output up to the
>>scope and rap on it with a metal rod. It looks just like you would expect
>>from a microphone, with a max output of ~3v (with a 'good' strike).
>>
<snip>

--




From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Wed Jan 27 13:58:53 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:58:53 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32888.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi David, Don't know if you got my post awhile back, but the OTC2000 arrived
alive and well thanks again.
 
Don

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	David A. Cooley [SMTP:n5xmt at bellsouth.net]
> Sent:	Wednesday, January 27, 1999 7:19 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: PROMs and Copyrights...
> 
> At 07:26 PM 1/26/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >-> > covers timing curves, fuel curves etc... if there was, changing the
> >-> advance > weights in your old distributor ignition car would have
> >-> been illegal.
> >
> > If it's a vehicle that falls under Federal smog regulations, changing
> >the advance weights in the distributor *is* illegal.  The Fed doesn't
> >bother to enforce their own regs; they pressure the local governments
> >into being the bad guys.
> >
> 
> But it's not copyright infringement.
> ===========================================================
>            David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>      Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>        I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be
> approximated.
> ===========================================================


From rauscher at icst.com  Wed Jan 27 14:05:17 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:05:17 -0500
Subject: VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.32889.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Mike Pilkenton wrote:

>Could someone tell me what functions the VSS signal might affect in the 92
>3.1L V6 Camaro ECM.  The motor/ECM came off a manual tranny car and my
>project car application won't have this signal available unless I install an
>aftermarket speed sensor.  Do I need this signal?
>
>Mike
>V6 Opel GT


Mike, there is a ton of information in the archives, to go the DIY EFI home
page and follow the links. Personally, I believe that the VSS is important,
there is also info on what the signal looks like and some ideas and also
off the shelf solutions to this.

http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi

I got the following from there:

the following text is from:
http://www.jagsthatrun.com/Pages/SpeedSensors_Speedometer.html

-------- quoted text from webpage ------------

Without a VSS, the Chevrolet Fuel Injected engines will not run correctly,
and they will not pass a smog test.

Basically, the VSS tells the ECM how fast the vehicle is going. Most
people think the VSS is only used for the lock-up torque converter. The
VSS is also used to control the EGR valve, the charcoal canister purge
valve, the electric cooling fans, idle speed, and air/fuel ratio. This is
all explained in the Chevrolet shop manuals. 

It must be emphasized that the VSS is used to control the idle speed when
the vehicle is moving. Without the VSS, a vehicle may have stalling
problems under certain conditions.  Needless to say, this is dangerous. 
Raising the minimum idle speed with the adjusting screw can eliminate
stalling, but the engine will still not run optimally without a VSS. 

A lot of people think that running "closed loop" is best for fuel mileage. 
Closed loop simply means that the oxygen sensor is being used to monitor
the fuel/air ratio. Some of the Chevrolet fuel-injected engines are
programmed to run lean under certain conditions (called "highway mode") to
improve fuel mileage during steady cruise conditions. Without a VSS, the
engine computer (ECM) will not get the correct signals to run the engine
for best fuel mileage. There are a lot of programs in the ECM that depend
on the VSS. For best operation, the VSS needs to be connected and
functioning.

-------- end quoted text from webpage ------------

Here is a list of things affected by the VSS sensor.  This list covers
three different engines, two of them 4 cylinder TBIs.  All three
applications are from the same era as the 1226867 2.0 TBI.

Code 24
TCC lockup (auto)
Upshift light (manual)
IAC position learning (above 30 MPH)
Cooling fan control (not used in these applications)
Determine if manual transmission is in gear (compare VSS vs RPM)
Disable some idle speed control if manual in gear (see previous item)
Disable idle learn if moving
Enable idle learn if moving with manual in neutral
Prevent DecelFuelCutOff if manual in neutral
Prevent DecelFuelCutOff at very slow speeds
Top speed limiter (not used in these applications)

The third application adds one more item:

Amount to open IAC and rate at which to close it upon throttle closing

Note - the idle speed control logic is a rats nest of complicated code. 
It is hard to figure what really happens.

--




From gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu  Wed Jan 27 14:06:26 1999
From: gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu (Gregory A. Parmer)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:06:26 -0500
Subject: VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.32890.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Mike Pilkenton wrote:
> Could someone tell me what functions the VSS signal might affect in the 92
> 3.1L V6 Camaro ECM.  The motor/ECM came off a manual tranny car and my
> project car application won't have this signal available unless I install an
> aftermarket speed sensor.  Do I need this signal?

Hey Mike. For the long version, check the archives...but
in short...Idle, deceleration enleanment, EGR, and dashpot, I
think. Did I mention idle?  :)  Ya need the signal. The idle
air control (IAC) re-learns its position when you reach
30mph or so.
I installed mine w/o VSS and it was OK (not good, but OK) until
the first time I took out the IAC. Then all heck broke loose 
until I installed VSS.
-greg



From rauscher at icst.com  Wed Jan 27 14:18:15 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:18:15 -0500
Subject: 92 Camaro ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.32891.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



OK, this ECM uses a 27C256 EPROM, that is soldered into a carrier. You can
unsolder it and install a socket, as you will need to remove and replace it in
order to change EPROMS.

There are some list members that have been dissecting the '730 ECM, the only
problem is that they have been working on the V8 code. The V6 code is
completely different, I checked.

To start, goto the archives, http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi, and
search
on various keywords: prog, 101, 730 are good ones to start with. Bruce wrote
a series of prog 101 articles that explain a lot of how the tables look and what

they do.

Oh, there is also info on how to take care of the VATS.

BobR.


Mike wrote:
>Could someone please help educate me on the 92 Camaro 3.1L V6 ECM program.
>I am new to the programming scene and don't really understand the ECM
>programs but I do do have a strong EE background.  What I would like to
>learn is how to reprogram or program my own EEPROMs for this application.  I
>remeber a message some time ago of someone offering this service to list
>members??
>
>    Can anybody give me a simple basic conversion of the ECM program so that
>I might learn how these programs work.  Has anybody decoded the 92 Camaro
>3.1L V6 program?  Sorry for all the questions but I have to start somewhere.
>
>Mike

--




From c95fsg at cs.umu.se  Wed Jan 27 14:20:19 1999
From: c95fsg at cs.umu.se (Fredrik Skog)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:20:19 -0500
Subject: Injector query
Message-ID: <mailman.32892.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Hi all!

I have got hold of 4 injectors wich is suposed to flow well. No one seems
to now what they really are though. Is there anyone out there who nows
somthing about these?

They are black with a blue stripe painted all the way around it. They have
a bosch type o-ring connection and have dual spray holes. 
They have the following numbers printed on one side: D5162FA
And the following on the other side: 913512

The guy  who had them before me, told me that thay are from SAAB's test
institute here in sweden.

Thanx

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University

Fredrik Skog			       E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se
Taffelstr?ket 51		       WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog/
903 53 Ume?                            Phone: +46-(0)90-136365

		Living and dying laughing and crying
		Once you have seen it you will never be the same
		Life in the fast lane is just how it seems
		Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean   
							/MetallicA



From ernstd at nortelnetworks.com  Wed Jan 27 14:51:39 1999
From: ernstd at nortelnetworks.com (Ernst Denbroeder)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:51:39 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32893.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Pat - your in my backyard!  I live down the road in Belleville...  my wife
works in Kingston.

Cheers!
Ernst.
______________________________________________________________
 _  _  ___  ___ _____ ___ _
| \| |/ _ \| _ \_   _| __| |                  Ernst denBroeder
| .` | (_) | ` / | | | _|| |_                 Test Engineering
|_|\_|\___/|_|_\ |_| |___|___|               Carrier Solutions
               N E T W O R K S       ernstd at nortelnetworks.com
                       
250 Sidney Street                         Tel: +1 613 966 0100
Belleville                                ESN:    6   343 3636
Ontario   K8N 5B7                         Fax: +1 613 967 5336
CANADA                                    ESN:    6   343 5336
______________________________________________________________



> > The tcc is an attempt to reduce 10% or so slippage present in the
> > converter.  Where is car hell located?
> > Shannen
> > 
> 
> in the ottawa - kingston area of ontario Canada
> ( I live near kingston and commute 140 km each day)
> 
> Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
> QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
> (613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
> (613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8


From dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us  Wed Jan 27 15:00:03 1999
From: dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us (David Sagers)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:00:03 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32894.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Expelled, if you are lucky.  

A lady in Colorado was recently prosecuted because she failed to reveal her intentions to judge the law as well as the case.  She made the mistake of discussing this opening in jury deliberations.  Another juror informed the judge, and since the judge was interested in writing a book about the Fully Informed Jury movement, the judge charged her with some sort of misconduct, and I believe she was convicted.


>>> Raymond C Drouillard <cosmic.ray at juno.com> 01/26 10:08 PM >>>
Greg,

That is very interesting.  Where can I get documentation on that fact?  I
am always interested in what the constitution REALLY says, rather than
some of the more <ahem> interesting interpretations that I have seen.

The next time I am called to jury duty, I would like to have in my hands
documentation that I have the right to judge the law as well as the
defendant.  That would keep me from being forced to convict someone of a
crime that shouldn't exist.

Of course, the real effect of such paperwork would probablly be to get me
excused from the jury.  I would need to find a way to keep that from
happening.

Ray Drouillard



On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:39:39 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
>>Scully agrees with that one Mulder.
>
>Yep--and remember that John Adams (yes, that one) argued that the Bill 
>of
>Rights was unnecessary cuz "NO JURY WOULD EVER CONVICT ANYBODY UNDER 
>AN
>UNREASONABLE, UNJUST LAW, ANYWAY!"  Jury nullification was an accepted 
>part
>of English (and thus American, unless you are from Louisiana) law from 
>when
>the Magna Carta was signed until the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Mellons,
>Morgans, Harrimans, etc. told the gummint that it should henceforth be
>called "JURY LAWLESSNESS!!" The framers considered the jury of peers 
>to be
>the ultimate check and balance in their newly designed system of
>government. Really, the law on this subject has NOT changed, they just 
>try
>to tell us that it has!!! Jurors have the right to judge the law as 
>well as
>the facts in any case before them! Think about it!!
>
>Regards, Greg
>>
>>
>>---Robert Harris <bob at bobthecomputerguy.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The question of your rights to hack GM or other ECU's vs the
>>Manufacturers
>>> boil down to two words -  Cubic Dollars.   If or when it is
>>perceived by GM et
>>> al to be in GM's interest to end the practice, it will end.   GM 
>has
>>> historically crushed competition without regard to anything other
>>than it was
>>> good for GM.  Count on it.
>>>
>>> Start with sheer absolute weight of lawyers - how many thousand can
>>you afford
>>> to defend with?   Then if you do start to get an edge - how many 
>cubic
>>> lobbyist can you afford?  GM can and has had the law routinely
>>changed to suit
>>> GM.
>>>
>>> When it was in Bill Gates interest to crush OS-2, cheap counterfeit
>>windows
>>> flooded the market.  Now that it is not - the software police are
>>out in force
>>> and MS openly states that it intends to have the 100,000 $
>>prescribed by law
>>> fines levied on individuals to end the practice.  Bill Gates can 
>and
>>is taking
>>> everything including the house of anyone they catch.
>>>
>>> Before you start to whine and snivel about rights - think campaign
>>> contributions.  How many bucks to how many Klintonian officials
>>campaigns can
>>> you fatten vs GM.   Not fair?  - who said GM or life or God was 
>fair?
>>>
>>> And do not forget that the tax paid gnomes and drones of the evil
>>empire
>>> AmeriKa will gladly crush you with the full weight and force of law
>>if it
>>> pleases their masters.   Think not - remember Janet Reno's barbecue
>>where 84
>>> people found out what happens when thief religion was not BATF
>>approved.
>>>
>>> Am I cynical - absolutely.  Do I disapprove - absolutely NOT.   Do
>>it, enjoy
>>> the holiday - but don't be surprised when Cubic Dollars descend to
>>end the
>>> practice.
>>>
>>> 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
>>> 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
>>> 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
>>> 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"
>>>
>>> Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore
>>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________
>>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html 
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Wed Jan 27 15:38:14 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:38:14 -0500
Subject: VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.32895.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

What do you do if you dont have one?  Can you put one in a turbo 400?

>----------
>From: 	rauscher at icst.com[SMTP:rauscher at icst.com]
>Reply To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Sent: 	Wednesday, January 27, 1999 9:00 AM
>To: 	DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: VSS
>
>
>
>Mike Pilkenton wrote:
>
>>Could someone tell me what functions the VSS signal might affect in the 92
>>3.1L V6 Camaro ECM.  The motor/ECM came off a manual tranny car and my
>>project car application won't have this signal available unless I install an
>>aftermarket speed sensor.  Do I need this signal?
>>
>>Mike
>>V6 Opel GT
>
>
>Mike, there is a ton of information in the archives, to go the DIY EFI home
>page and follow the links. Personally, I believe that the VSS is important,
>there is also info on what the signal looks like and some ideas and also
>off the shelf solutions to this.
>
>http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi
>
>I got the following from there:
>
>the following text is from:
>http://www.jagsthatrun.com/Pages/SpeedSensors_Speedometer.html
>
>-------- quoted text from webpage ------------
>
>Without a VSS, the Chevrolet Fuel Injected engines will not run correctly,
>and they will not pass a smog test.
>
>Basically, the VSS tells the ECM how fast the vehicle is going. Most
>people think the VSS is only used for the lock-up torque converter. The
>VSS is also used to control the EGR valve, the charcoal canister purge
>valve, the electric cooling fans, idle speed, and air/fuel ratio. This is
>all explained in the Chevrolet shop manuals. 
>
>It must be emphasized that the VSS is used to control the idle speed when
>the vehicle is moving. Without the VSS, a vehicle may have stalling
>problems under certain conditions.  Needless to say, this is dangerous. 
>Raising the minimum idle speed with the adjusting screw can eliminate
>stalling, but the engine will still not run optimally without a VSS. 
>
>A lot of people think that running "closed loop" is best for fuel mileage. 
>Closed loop simply means that the oxygen sensor is being used to monitor
>the fuel/air ratio. Some of the Chevrolet fuel-injected engines are
>programmed to run lean under certain conditions (called "highway mode") to
>improve fuel mileage during steady cruise conditions. Without a VSS, the
>engine computer (ECM) will not get the correct signals to run the engine
>for best fuel mileage. There are a lot of programs in the ECM that depend
>on the VSS. For best operation, the VSS needs to be connected and
>functioning.
>
>-------- end quoted text from webpage ------------
>
>Here is a list of things affected by the VSS sensor.  This list covers
>three different engines, two of them 4 cylinder TBIs.  All three
>applications are from the same era as the 1226867 2.0 TBI.
>
>Code 24
>TCC lockup (auto)
>Upshift light (manual)
>IAC position learning (above 30 MPH)
>Cooling fan control (not used in these applications)
>Determine if manual transmission is in gear (compare VSS vs RPM)
>Disable some idle speed control if manual in gear (see previous item)
>Disable idle learn if moving
>Enable idle learn if moving with manual in neutral
>Prevent DecelFuelCutOff if manual in neutral
>Prevent DecelFuelCutOff at very slow speeds
>Top speed limiter (not used in these applications)
>
>The third application adds one more item:
>
>Amount to open IAC and rate at which to close it upon throttle closing
>
>Note - the idle speed control logic is a rats nest of complicated code. 
>It is hard to figure what really happens.
>
>--
>
>
>


From pford at qnx.com  Wed Jan 27 15:53:07 1999
From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:53:07 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32896.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Ernst Denbroeder wrote:

> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:51:11 -0500
> From: Ernst Denbroeder <ernstd at nortelnetworks.com>
> To: "'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'"
     <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Subject: RE: Switch Pitch
> 
> Pat - your in my backyard!  I live down the road in Belleville...  my wife
> works in Kingston.
> 
> Cheers!
> Ernst.
> ______________________________________________________________
>  _  _  ___  ___ _____ ___ _
> | \| |/ _ \| _ \_   _| __| |                  Ernst denBroeder
> | .` | (_) | ` / | | | _|| |_                 Test Engineering
> |_|\_|\___/|_|_\ |_| |___|___|               Carrier Solutions
>                N E T W O R K S       ernstd at nortelnetworks.com
>                        
> 250 Sidney Street                         Tel: +1 613 966 0100
> Belleville                                ESN:    6   343 3636
> Ontario   K8N 5B7                         Fax: +1 613 967 5336
> CANADA                                    ESN:    6   343 5336
> ______________________________________________________________
> 

Seem to be in a related job as well. are you h/w guy or s/w?
I have family in belleville.Do you remember quite a while back 
(mid 80's) there was was a hotel owner taken hostage ( the motor
 otel, I think it is near your work) she sang hymms and prayed so
loudly the gunman through himself out the window. 

yeap thats my aunt

is the subaru dealer in your town still the maytag dealer ( I think it 
was front street motors)
 
> > > The tcc is an attempt to reduce 10% or so slippage present in the
> > > converter.  Where is car hell located?
> > > Shannen
> > > 
> > 
> > in the ottawa - kingston area of ontario Canada
> > ( I live near kingston and commute 140 km each day)
> > 
> > Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
> > QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
> > (613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
> > (613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8
> 

Pat Ford                           email: pford at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.           WWW: http://www.qnx.com
(613) 591-0931      (voice)         mail: 175 Terrence Matthews          
(613) 591-3579      (fax)                 Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8



From dcsmith at gnttype.org  Wed Jan 27 16:01:23 1999
From: dcsmith at gnttype.org (DC Smith)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:01:23 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32897.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Raymond C Drouillard wrote:
> 
> Greg,
> 
> That is very interesting.  Where can I get documentation on that fact?  I
> am always interested in what the constitution REALLY says, rather than
> some of the more <ahem> interesting interpretations that I have seen.
> 


 Actually, Ray..
 If you are looking for someone to give you an interpretation of what
the united States Constitution says, you only need to look in the
mirror. (it's on the net)  Read it and believe it. The united States
Constitution wasn't written by a bunch of lawyers (and liars, apologies
to any liars). The way you read it, is the way the framing fathers meant
it to be. 
 The people trying to interpret it in any other manner than it reads,
are trying to manipulate it to suit their needs.

> The next time I am called to jury duty, I would like to have in my hands
> documentation that I have the right to judge the law as well as the
> defendant.  That would keep me from being forced to convict someone of a
> crime that shouldn't exist.

 You can do a search on the net for the FIJA or the Fully Informed Jury
Association. The FIJA is pretty much labeled as a bunch of nuts. That is
how the power mongers like to make people ignore the truth, by passing
them off as a bunch of nuts. You won't see the truth on the 6 o'clock
news, for sure. 

 If you bring the subject of jury nullification (or anything close),
when you are called to jury duty, you WILL be dismissed.
 I don't know (or care) about what anyone else thinks on the subject,
but our judicial system (among others) is WAY off base from the
intentions that were put forth in the Constitution. IMO
 
Uh.. EFI list.. um, sorry.. I just put together a Sable 4 door and a
station wagon (bad motors.. yeah, I know, she's spoiled), for my wife..
Both have a EFI V-6. (really NICE cars!) :) She doesn't try to snatch my
Buick as much anymore. BTW, I think I have the Peugeot sold! (It has
some Bosch system)

***********************************************************************
Dan Smith        AOSEE / CET           GSCA# 1459     12.13 at 112      
St.Charles, Missouri  uSA              
mailto:dcsmith at gnttype.org
http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral
***********************************************************************


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Wed Jan 27 16:15:30 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:15:30 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32898.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ray, have a look at the fully informed jury association at
www.fija.org.  FIJA espouses jury nullification as the most fundamental
check and balance in the US justice system.  The Supreme Court has ruled
more than once that juries have the right to judge the law, and the
potential punishment, in addition to the facts at hand.  Look for Sparf
and Hansen vs. United States.  In this decision, however, the Supreme
Court ruled that judges did not have to inform jurors of this fact. 
With the net result that today judges lie outright to jurors, saying
that the judge will supply jurors with the law, and the jury will only
decide the facts.

If you go into voir dire and volunteer this information you will
certainly be excused from jury duty, but you may be able to introduce
the concept to your fellow jurors.  If you don't speak up when the judge
asks you if you will follow his instructions, and he finds out that you
discussed nullification issues during deliberation, you may be charged
with contempt.  This happened to Laura Kriho, a juror in a minor drug
possession case in Colorado.  What she said in deliberation (supposed to
be totally secret) was leaked to the judge.  He was infuriated and
charged her with contempt.  The fact that a juror can be charged with
contempt for doing something the judge doesn't like should be absolutely
shocking, but it's received little or no attention.  So if you keep
silent during voir dire, and are selected for duty, then it might be
best to keep your mouth shut during deliberations and just hang the jury
(if that's what you believe should happen).

--steve

Raymond C Drouillard wrote:
> 
> Greg,
> 
> That is very interesting.  Where can I get documentation on that fact?  I
> am always interested in what the constitution REALLY says, rather than
> some of the more <ahem> interesting interpretations that I have seen.
> 
> The next time I am called to jury duty, I would like to have in my hands
> documentation that I have the right to judge the law as well as the
> defendant.  That would keep me from being forced to convict someone of a
> crime that shouldn't exist.
> 
> Of course, the real effect of such paperwork would probablly be to get me
> excused from the jury.  I would need to find a way to keep that from
> happening.
>


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Wed Jan 27 16:16:28 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:16:28 -0500
Subject: sorry about that
Message-ID: <mailman.32899.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I apologize for the public followup to Ray's question about jury
nullification, I intended to send that privately.  Certainly not EFI
related.

--steve


From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Wed Jan 27 16:59:21 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:59:21 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32900.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

EFI or not, Its worth talkin about!  Its why we live where we do!
Made in the USA 
Max

>----------
>From: 	DC Smith[SMTP:dcsmith at gnttype.org]
>Reply To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Sent: 	Wednesday, January 27, 1999 11:00 AM
>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: Cubic Dollars
>
>Raymond C Drouillard wrote:
>> 
>> Greg,
>> 
>> That is very interesting.  Where can I get documentation on that fact?  I
>> am always interested in what the constitution REALLY says, rather than
>> some of the more <ahem> interesting interpretations that I have seen.
>> 
>
>
> Actually, Ray..
> If you are looking for someone to give you an interpretation of what
>the united States Constitution says, you only need to look in the
>mirror. (it's on the net)  Read it and believe it. The united States
>Constitution wasn't written by a bunch of lawyers (and liars, apologies
>to any liars). The way you read it, is the way the framing fathers meant
>it to be. 
> The people trying to interpret it in any other manner than it reads,
>are trying to manipulate it to suit their needs.
>
>> The next time I am called to jury duty, I would like to have in my hands
>> documentation that I have the right to judge the law as well as the
>> defendant.  That would keep me from being forced to convict someone of a
>> crime that shouldn't exist.
>
> You can do a search on the net for the FIJA or the Fully Informed Jury
>Association. The FIJA is pretty much labeled as a bunch of nuts. That is
>how the power mongers like to make people ignore the truth, by passing
>them off as a bunch of nuts. You won't see the truth on the 6 o'clock
>news, for sure. 
>
> If you bring the subject of jury nullification (or anything close),
>when you are called to jury duty, you WILL be dismissed.
> I don't know (or care) about what anyone else thinks on the subject,
>but our judicial system (among others) is WAY off base from the
>intentions that were put forth in the Constitution. IMO
> 
>Uh.. EFI list.. um, sorry.. I just put together a Sable 4 door and a
>station wagon (bad motors.. yeah, I know, she's spoiled), for my wife..
>Both have a EFI V-6. (really NICE cars!) :) She doesn't try to snatch my
>Buick as much anymore. BTW, I think I have the Peugeot sold! (It has
>some Bosch system)
>
>***********************************************************************
>Dan Smith        AOSEE / CET           GSCA# 1459     12.13 at 112      
>St.Charles, Missouri  uSA              
>mailto:dcsmith at gnttype.org
>http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral
>***********************************************************************
>


From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Jan 27 17:19:31 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:19:31 -0500
Subject: sorry about that
Message-ID: <mailman.32901.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I, for one, am glad you messed up.
Shannen

steve ravet wrote:
> 
> I apologize for the public followup to Ray's question about jury
> nullification, I intended to send that privately.  Certainly not EFI
> related.
> 
> --steve



From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Jan 27 17:59:01 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:59:01 -0500
Subject: VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.32902.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

There are VSS units available which connect to the speedometer cable. 
In 1989, there were THM 400 trans used in pickups with fuel injection
which had a VSS.  You would need to go to the dealership and to
determine that the conversion is possible, and which parts are needed.

Guenther,Max wrote:
> 
> What do you do if you dont have one?  Can you put one in a turbo 400?
> 
> >----------
> >From:  rauscher at icst.com[SMTP:rauscher at icst.com]
> >Reply To:      diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >Sent:  Wednesday, January 27, 1999 9:00 AM
> >To:    DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >Subject:       Re: VSS
> >
> >
> >
> >Mike Pilkenton wrote:
> >
> >>Could someone tell me what functions the VSS signal might affect in the 92
> >>3.1L V6 Camaro ECM.  The motor/ECM came off a manual tranny car and my
> >>project car application won't have this signal available unless I install an
> >>aftermarket speed sensor.  Do I need this signal?
> >>
> >>Mike
> >>V6 Opel GT
> >
> >
> >Mike, there is a ton of information in the archives, to go the DIY EFI home
> >page and follow the links. Personally, I believe that the VSS is important,
> >there is also info on what the signal looks like and some ideas and also
> >off the shelf solutions to this.
> >
> >http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi
> >
> >I got the following from there:
> >
> >the following text is from:
> >http://www.jagsthatrun.com/Pages/SpeedSensors_Speedometer.html
> >
> >-------- quoted text from webpage ------------
> >
> >Without a VSS, the Chevrolet Fuel Injected engines will not run correctly,
> >and they will not pass a smog test.
> >
> >Basically, the VSS tells the ECM how fast the vehicle is going. Most
> >people think the VSS is only used for the lock-up torque converter. The
> >VSS is also used to control the EGR valve, the charcoal canister purge
> >valve, the electric cooling fans, idle speed, and air/fuel ratio. This is
> >all explained in the Chevrolet shop manuals.
> >
> >It must be emphasized that the VSS is used to control the idle speed when
> >the vehicle is moving. Without the VSS, a vehicle may have stalling
> >problems under certain conditions.  Needless to say, this is dangerous.
> >Raising the minimum idle speed with the adjusting screw can eliminate
> >stalling, but the engine will still not run optimally without a VSS.
> >
> >A lot of people think that running "closed loop" is best for fuel mileage.
> >Closed loop simply means that the oxygen sensor is being used to monitor
> >the fuel/air ratio. Some of the Chevrolet fuel-injected engines are
> >programmed to run lean under certain conditions (called "highway mode") to
> >improve fuel mileage during steady cruise conditions. Without a VSS, the
> >engine computer (ECM) will not get the correct signals to run the engine
> >for best fuel mileage. There are a lot of programs in the ECM that depend
> >on the VSS. For best operation, the VSS needs to be connected and
> >functioning.
> >
> >-------- end quoted text from webpage ------------
> >
> >Here is a list of things affected by the VSS sensor.  This list covers
> >three different engines, two of them 4 cylinder TBIs.  All three
> >applications are from the same era as the 1226867 2.0 TBI.
> >
> >Code 24
> >TCC lockup (auto)
> >Upshift light (manual)
> >IAC position learning (above 30 MPH)
> >Cooling fan control (not used in these applications)
> >Determine if manual transmission is in gear (compare VSS vs RPM)
> >Disable some idle speed control if manual in gear (see previous item)
> >Disable idle learn if moving
> >Enable idle learn if moving with manual in neutral
> >Prevent DecelFuelCutOff if manual in neutral
> >Prevent DecelFuelCutOff at very slow speeds
> >Top speed limiter (not used in these applications)
> >
> >The third application adds one more item:
> >
> >Amount to open IAC and rate at which to close it upon throttle closing
> >
> >Note - the idle speed control logic is a rats nest of complicated code.
> >It is hard to figure what really happens.
> >
> >--
> >
> >
> >



From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com  Wed Jan 27 18:05:01 1999
From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:05:01 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
Message-ID: <mailman.32903.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

ok, but for a small 4 cyl, why would I want a 747 vs a 165 ?? I woudln't
know which tables to modify etc. just curious, I'm just about ready to go
out and find a 165 ecu.

Ted Stowe

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	EFISYSTEMS at aol.com [SMTP:EFISYSTEMS at aol.com]
> Sent:	Tuesday, January 26, 1999 12:49 AM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
> 
> I hate to blow it for the rest of us that know but in a 747 and others
> just
> get a calpak from a 4 cyl(ex. S-10) and plug it in to a 747.....its just a
> resistor network that gets the processor to understand the ticks while
> cranking that it's a 4 cyl......then make sure you change the cyl select
> in
> the lookup tables so the "timing" is correct......blah blah and then some
> -Carl Summers
> 
> In a message dated 1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> nacelp at bright.net
> writes:
> 
> << Subj:	 Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
>  Date:	1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
>  From:	nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
>  Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>  Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>  To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>  
>  
>  
>  I knew, you knew that, well maybe a couple other guys,do
>  Bruce
>  
>   
>  >>  Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?.
>  >>  Bruce
>  >None..
>  >Mike V
>  
>  
>   >>


From DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jan 27 18:07:53 1999
From: DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com (Dan Llewellyn2)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:07:53 -0500
Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32904.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is not exactly EFI related - but my local sources have
been unable to help me.

I am trying to build an experimental transmission.  It uses
an internal gear (teeth on the inside) and a spur gear (teeth
on the outside) that rotates inside the first gear.  My only
requirement is that the internal gear needs to have exactly
twice the teeth of the spur gear (and mesh, of course).

I went some automatic transmission shops, but all the sets
of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
the cheapest way to get some quality gears.

Any ideas?

TIA

Dan L



From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan 27 18:08:44 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:08:44 -0500
Subject: PROMs and Copyrights...
Message-ID: <mailman.32905.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Dave Williams wrote:
>
>>
>> -> Actually, they are not modifying code...
>> -> They are modifying look-up tables.  There is no copyright or patent
>> -> that covers timing curves, fuel curves etc...
>>
>>  US and European copyright law doesn't distinguish between "code" and
>> "data."
>>
>
>The real question is could someone buy say 100 books, and modify a
>word and resell it?   I don't think this would violate copyright, and
>under the same conditions buying a computer with the right to run a
>given set of code, and adjusting it, should also not be a copyright
>violaction.  You have right to one copy, you only have 1 copy, you
>have just corrected/adjusted a byte.  Now if you sold that to others
>that did not also have a legal license to run one copy (computer from
>someone else other than original prom writer) then you could be in
>trouble.
>
>
>				Roger

Roger, I THINK you are correct, and on the right track. As I said before,
what the chip makers are doing and have done is most analogous to what the
writer of a system extension or system patch for a computer operating
system does--and it is pretty well established and obvious that that kind
of work is OK legally, and that it is legally OK to distribute such work to
licensed users of the target system for profit.

This is NOT a comment on what the EPA or CARB might think of it in re chips
for cars, but they are NOT the copyright or patent police.

Another point--for those who believe that the chip makers may be operating
on wishful thinking--THEY might have been willing to operate on a wish at
the beginning, although that is doubtful, given the investment that their
principals made in their businesses. But, as they grew, it is EXTREMELY
doubtful that their bankers or their bankers' lawyers would have allowed
them continue and grow on such a shaky legal basis!!

Furthermore, I am not aware of any licensing agreement which buyers of
(say) GM cars must execute in order to buy a car new (let alone anything
which would be binding on the buyer of a used car) in order to use the car
or the software included with/in it. No "not to copy", "not to modify", no
nothing. I suspect that you prolly have as much right to copy the ecu and
sell functionally similar copies in the aftermarket as you do to copy the
pistons, and sell functional copies of them in the aftermarket!! When you
buy a car, it, including all of the included software, is yours to use,
however you wish. Nothing remotely like what you agree to when buying and
using software for your computer. The basis for any such agreement would
prolly be further complicated by the fact that title to the car (and
included software) usually is vested in the dealer before it goes to the
buyer. In fact, the gummint even forces the mfgrs to honor their
warranties, despite modifications/non-mfgr parts to/used in a vehicle,
unless they can show that a given modification/non mfgr part was the direct
cause of the failure for which a warranty repair is being denied!!

Writing better software for a vehicle's ecu is legally NO different than it
would be for someone to design, build, and sell , say, a more durable
bracket for the power steering pump on some vehicle which habitually broke
such brackets. I do not believe that the MFGR can go after anyone for
software changes any more than they could go after someone for making the
bracket match their bolt patterns.

The same logic applies to innumerable aftermarket replacement parts. The
mfgrs have TRIED to stop aftermarket body parts (sheet metal) mfgrs--and
could not do it!! Best they could do was TV ads telling you why you should
pay more for their parts! (Of course it was the insurance industry who paid
the lawyers on the other side of that fracas, (they were fond of the
savings on crash repair claims) so things were evenly matched in terms of
who had enough money to pay the legal extortions involved. ) And there is
even an element of design originality and brand recognition in body parts!!

As warped as our legal system may be, not even GM gets to have things both
ways to this degree!! IMHO selling anything as "original equipment" is
about the only thing that the mfgrs can stop anyone from doing, no matter
whether hardware or software.

Regards, Greg




From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 27 18:32:22 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:32:22 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
Message-ID: <mailman.32906.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The 747 uses two injector drivers, and they fire alternately on every
ignition pulse.  The applications for 4 cyl TBI I recall are all single
head TBI's, so what do you do with the other injector line?.  Just
leave things dangleing isn't how I see to get it right.  I haven't seen
an oem application for a 4 cyl 747, and have no idea about what
table/sswitches/settings would be needed to change to run it that
way.
  The early S-10s used a 1227165 as a 4 cyl TBI, and with it's
single final drive, and it use being correct for what he was doing
looked like it would be a more likely doable arrangement..
  If you look at 808 they used it as a 4 cyl TPI, but with that there is
enough info., that that might be workable, as a TBI.
  There are all kinds of options but inho some seem more likely to
succeed.
  Personnally I'd probably wind up trying them all, but, I would start with
the easiest.
Cheers
Bruce



>ok, but for a small 4 cyl, why would I want a 747 vs a 165 ?? I woudln't
>know which tables to modify etc. just curious, I'm just about ready to go
>out and find a 165 ecu.
>Ted Stowe
 To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>> Subject: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
>> I hate to blow it for the rest of us that know but in a 747 and others
>> just
>> get a calpak from a 4 cyl(ex. S-10) and plug it in to a 747.....its just
a
>> resistor network that gets the processor to understand the ticks while
>> cranking that it's a 4 cyl......then make sure you change the cyl select
>> in
>> the lookup tables so the "timing" is correct......blah blah and then some
>> -Carl Summers
>> In a message dated 1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>> nacelp at bright.net
>> writes:
>> << Subj: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
>>  Sender: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>>  Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>>  To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>>  I knew, you knew that, well maybe a couple other guys,do
>>  Bruce
>  >>  Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?.
>>  >>  Bruce
>>  >None..
>>  >Mike V




From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan 27 18:35:23 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:35:23 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32907.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Gwyn Reedy wrote:
>
>> By the way, toward the end of the DynaFlow era, how many vane positions
>> could the converter be set to? Three at least. Or was it some kind of
>> infinitely variable position?
>>
>> I agree with the gent who wold like a variable pitch, locking converter.
>> Would be quite handy.
>>
>The VP convertor as used on TH400s and ST300s is a 3 element convertor
>with adjustable stator vane angles. The DynoFlush was a one-speed trans
>with a multi-element convertor [cant remember, about 5 elements, IIRC] it
>did have a switch pitch feature but it was hydraulically actuated. Not
>interchangeable...
>
IIRC--The DF used a five element converter--pump, turbine, and three
stators, do not recall any switch pitch being involved. Again, IIRC, the
tranny was 2 forward, 1 reverse, with a LOT of similarities to the Chebby
Power Glide. At the beginning, (late '40's) I think the only difference
between a Dyna Flow and a Power Glide was the name.

Regards, Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan 27 18:54:58 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:54:58 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32908.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Greg Hermann wrote:
>
>> Did the rear have a crush sleeve for preload, or positive shims?? The
>> latter is a lot harder to do that to, conversions are usually available.
>
>    I never even bothered to pull out the pinion to look.  The was like .75" of
>play at the driveshaft side of the thing, it made me sick.  I figured out why
>it all happened now though.
>
>    The previous owner got the VR TH-400 and swapped it in, but the tranny
>musta been 1" or more longer than the previous tranny.  When I got the car, the
>tranny mount wasn't bolted down and the threads were stripped.  So I put a bolt
>on the other side and bolted the thing down, I didn't even think about it.  I
>figured the last guy just forgot or something.  Soon after my rear end went.
>So I guess that the driveshaft  would buckle enough at the tailshaft and
>u-joints to soften the blow at the pinion.  When I bolted it down, it must have
>just pounded the poor rear into oblivion.  And I thought I was doing myself a
>favor by hooking up the mount, damn.
>
>James Ballenger

Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the companion
flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve beyond
where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too
long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them!

The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production
situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance
application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive
pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!!

Regards, Greg





From gderian at cybergate.net  Wed Jan 27 19:06:09 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:06:09 -0500
Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32909.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

There are companies with stock gears that may have what you want.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>



>This is not exactly EFI related - but my local sources have
>been unable to help me.
>
>I am trying to build an experimental transmission.  It uses
>an internal gear (teeth on the inside) and a spur gear (teeth
>on the outside) that rotates inside the first gear.  My only
>requirement is that the internal gear needs to have exactly
>twice the teeth of the spur gear (and mesh, of course).
>
>I went some automatic transmission shops, but all the sets
>of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
>are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
>sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
>buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
>the cheapest way to get some quality gears.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>TIA
>
>Dan L



From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Jan 27 19:27:06 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:27:06 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
Message-ID: <mailman.32910.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> The 747 uses two injector drivers, and they fire alternately on every
> ignition pulse.  The applications for 4 cyl TBI I recall are all single
> head TBI's, so what do you do with the other injector line?.  Just
> leave things dangleing isn't how I see to get it right.  I haven't seen
> an oem application for a 4 cyl 747, and have no idea about what
> table/sswitches/settings would be needed to change to run it that

Old days, same ecm was used in 83 F body 5.0 as in 83 X body with
2.5.  Only one injector connector.  I agree with starting from a
working calibration that's close, rather than trying to modify one
that isn't.  4 cyl 747 conversion probably better for someone who
enjoys tuning as much as driving.

Shannen

> way.
>   The early S-10s used a 1227165 as a 4 cyl TBI, and with it's
> single final drive, and it use being correct for what he was doing
> looked like it would be a more likely doable arrangement..
>   If you look at 808 they used it as a 4 cyl TPI, but with that there is
> enough info., that that might be workable, as a TBI.
>   There are all kinds of options but inho some seem more likely to
> succeed.
>   Personnally I'd probably wind up trying them all, but, I would start with
> the easiest.
> Cheers
> Bruce
> 
> >ok, but for a small 4 cyl, why would I want a 747 vs a 165 ?? I woudln't
> >know which tables to modify etc. just curious, I'm just about ready to go
> >out and find a 165 ecu.
> >Ted Stowe
>  To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >> Subject: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
> >> I hate to blow it for the rest of us that know but in a 747 and others
> >> just
> >> get a calpak from a 4 cyl(ex. S-10) and plug it in to a 747.....its just
> a
> >> resistor network that gets the processor to understand the ticks while
> >> cranking that it's a 4 cyl......then make sure you change the cyl select
> >> in
> >> the lookup tables so the "timing" is correct......blah blah and then some
> >> -Carl Summers
> >> In a message dated 1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> >> nacelp at bright.net
> >> writes:
> >> << Subj: Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
> >>  Sender: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >>  Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >>  To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >>  I knew, you knew that, well maybe a couple other guys,do
> >>  Bruce
> >  >>  Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?.
> >>  >>  Bruce
> >>  >None..
> >>  >Mike V



From talltom at effectnet.com  Wed Jan 27 19:29:13 1999
From: talltom at effectnet.com (espace)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:29:13 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32911.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well I for one am really impressed that this group has so many that know something of
nullification, and so many that are interested. Far from a normal group of bozos here!:-)


As for efi content, anybody here got any evidence of what effect washing down the cylinder
walls with fuel has on compression??? I've a rig of questionable background(85300zx turbo)
that is varying from 30#-85# and there's 18 hours labor in r&r'ing the heads. I'd really
hate to invest this much in the thing(gaskets are probably 300$) just to find that fuel
or condensate had caused such. It has only 100k miles on it.



From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Jan 27 19:30:31 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:30:31 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32912.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I heard once that the dynaflow lacked torque multiplication, and was
very high revving and noisy.  If I can remember, I'll try to dig out a
manual for it when I get back to my reference library.

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> >
> >> By the way, toward the end of the DynaFlow era, how many vane positions
> >> could the converter be set to? Three at least. Or was it some kind of
> >> infinitely variable position?
> >>
> >> I agree with the gent who wold like a variable pitch, locking converter.
> >> Would be quite handy.
> >>
> >The VP convertor as used on TH400s and ST300s is a 3 element convertor
> >with adjustable stator vane angles. The DynoFlush was a one-speed trans
> >with a multi-element convertor [cant remember, about 5 elements, IIRC] it
> >did have a switch pitch feature but it was hydraulically actuated. Not
> >interchangeable...
> >
> IIRC--The DF used a five element converter--pump, turbine, and three
> stators, do not recall any switch pitch being involved. Again, IIRC, the
> tranny was 2 forward, 1 reverse, with a LOT of similarities to the Chebby
> Power Glide. At the beginning, (late '40's) I think the only difference
> between a Dyna Flow and a Power Glide was the name.
> 
> Regards, Greg



From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan 27 19:33:13 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:33:13 -0500
Subject: Non list-chasing ghosts.
Message-ID: <mailman.32913.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>My recollection is that Donahue used Toronado CV joints in the ends of the
>axle housing to get the negative camber.
>
>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>
>>
>>(The Javelin in question was the same one that had a solid rear axle with
>>about 1-1/2 degrees of negative camber on each rear wheel. This was done by
>>means of (I think) a curved spline on the outer end of a full floating axle
>>shaft. Pretty cute stuff. No wonder the class got sorta expensive to
>>run!!!) :-)
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
Could well be!!--I never saw it. The looks on a lot of faces when he got
caught were pretty funny, tho!!

Regards, Greg




From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Wed Jan 27 19:47:42 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:47:42 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
Message-ID: <mailman.32914.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



"Stowe, Ted-SEA" wrote:
> 
> ok, but for a small 4 cyl, why would I want a 747 vs a 165 ?? I woudln't
> know which tables to modify etc. just curious, I'm just about ready to go
> out and find a 165 ecu.

Thanks to Bruce, the 747 is pretty well laid out on the WWW page.  Not
so for 165.  I'd like to use a 747 on my boat project but since it's 4
cyl I went with something else.

--steve


> 
> Ted Stowe
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com [SMTP:EFISYSTEMS at aol.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 12:49 AM
> > To:   diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> > Subject:      Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
> >
> > I hate to blow it for the rest of us that know but in a 747 and others
> > just
> > get a calpak from a 4 cyl(ex. S-10) and plug it in to a 747.....its just a
> > resistor network that gets the processor to understand the ticks while
> > cranking that it's a 4 cyl......then make sure you change the cyl select
> > in
> > the lookup tables so the "timing" is correct......blah blah and then some
> > -Carl Summers
> >
> > In a message dated 1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> > nacelp at bright.net
> > writes:
> >
> > << Subj:       Re: 1.8 TBI and the 7747
> >  Date:        1/23/99 8:45:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >  From:        nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
> >  Sender:      owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >  Reply-to:    diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >  To:  diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> >
> >
> >
> >  I knew, you knew that, well maybe a couple other guys,do
> >  Bruce
> >
> >
> >  >>  Oh, and what 4 cyl application used a 747?.
> >  >>  Bruce
> >  >None..
> >  >Mike V
> >
> >
> >   >>


From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan 27 20:02:39 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:02:39 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32915.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Expelled, if you are lucky.
>
>A lady in Colorado was recently prosecuted because she failed to reveal
>her intentions to judge the law as well as the case.  She made the mistake
>of discussing this opening in jury deliberations.  Another juror informed
>the judge, and since the judge was interested in writing a book about the
>Fully Informed Jury movement, the judge charged her with some sort of
>misconduct, and I believe she was convicted.

HI--

Yes, this did happen--I live in Steamboat Springs, CO, and it was in the
news here at the time. However, you did not read the fine print! What they
went after her for was for not informing the court of a possible
conflict--not for exercising her rights as a juror. It seems that she was
on the jury for a drug case, and she had pled nolo to a very minor drug
charge about 20 years previously. The prosecutor tried to claim that she
had deliberately concealed the conflict, and had pre-judged the case, but
perjured herself by claiming that she had no conflict in judging the case.
SHE WAS NOT PROSECUTED FOR KNOWING OR EXERCISING HER RIGHTS AS A JUROR (no
matter how much the media and the pols, judges, & lawyers wanted everybody
to believe that that was the case!) Whether she got convicted, did a plea
bargain, or got acquitted, I do not recall. The BS that the #@$% holes go
through to avoid having you know your rights as a juror would make slick
proud!!

Which makes me realize--mebbe I should remind our two Senators from CO of
just how trivial and obscure a perjury offense we in Colorado will
prosecute someone for. Perhaps they should weigh the above referenced case
during their deliberations on slick's fate!!!

Perhaps, to be on the safe side, those of us on this list should plead
conflict if ever called to serve as jurors for a speeding ticket trial----
:-)

Regards, Greg
>
>
>>>> Raymond C Drouillard <cosmic.ray at juno.com> 01/26 10:08 PM >>>
>Greg,
>
>That is very interesting.  Where can I get documentation on that fact?  I
>am always interested in what the constitution REALLY says, rather than
>some of the more <ahem> interesting interpretations that I have seen.
>
>The next time I am called to jury duty, I would like to have in my hands
>documentation that I have the right to judge the law as well as the
>defendant.  That would keep me from being forced to convict someone of a
>crime that shouldn't exist.
>
>Of course, the real effect of such paperwork would probablly be to get me
>excused from the jury.  I would need to find a way to keep that from
>happening.
>
>Ray Drouillard
>
>




From rauscher at icst.com  Wed Jan 27 20:04:17 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:04:17 -0500
Subject: VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.32916.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Max wrote (regarding a VSS):

>What do you do if you dont have one?  Can you put one in a turbo 400?

There are many ways to put one in.

Myself, I used the same unit that is used with the '747 ECM. This unit is
'driven' from the rear of the speedo. It has a IR LED and phototransister
that reflects off a rotating disk at the back of the speedo housing.

I made a unit that goes inline of the speedo cable, that has a disk attached,
that is black/white striped. The opto unit then just mounts to this.

Jags That Run sell 2 and 4 pulse units that go inline. There are units that
plug into the tranny that provide the pulses, but you lose the cable to
drive your speedo.

Magnets on the driveshaft with a pickup, taxi meters, aftermarket cruise
controls, it's almost endless.

Again, check the archives, toooonnnnns of info...

BobR.

--







From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 27 20:08:29 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:08:29 -0500
Subject: 1.8 TBI and the 7747          3.1 92 Cam 730ecm
Message-ID: <mailman.32917.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well, if folks are interested, in a 4 cyl TBI I do have a bin for one
(uses the 165),  BCC AUXH.  Someone, might double check,
that.  Using Promedit finding the timing fuel tables should be too
bad if you follow 101.  If it get to the stage to verify temp enable,
meaning you found something you think is right, but want to test
it on a bench ecm holler.

Same offer for the 92 v-6 730

Bruce

Stowe, Ted-SEA" wrote:
>> ok, but for a small 4 cyl, why would I want a 747 vs a 165 ?? I woudln't
>> know which tables to modify etc. just curious, I'm just about ready to go
>> out and find a 165 ecu.
>Thanks to Bruce, the 747 is pretty well laid out on the WWW page.  Not
>so for 165.  I'd like to use a 747 on my boat project but since it's 4
>cyl I went with something else.
>--steve




From mpitts at netspeak.com  Wed Jan 27 20:28:53 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:28:53 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.32918.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Hello,

Can someone give me the exact years, models and VIN 
identification codes for the Honda's which have the 
"lean burn" (ie:wideband O2) engines?

I'd like to try and hunt down a scrapyard ECM from 
one.

Thanks,
-Mike


From gderian at cybergate.net  Wed Jan 27 20:32:42 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:32:42 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32919.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The way I know, the crush sleeve is only used to hold the inner bearing
races against the pinion gear to keep the races from rotating relative to
the pinion.  It doesn't take any gear loads.  You could remove the crush
sleeve and loctite the inner races to the pinion.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>
>Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the companion
>flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve beyond
>where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too
>long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them!
>
>The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production
>situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance
>application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive
>pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!!
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>



From seachallenger at usa.net  Wed Jan 27 20:36:39 1999
From: seachallenger at usa.net (JJG)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:36:39 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32920.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Robert, I agree with you.
Greg, Ray,  Me too.  I would like the same documentation.
Regards,
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond C Drouillard <cosmic.ray at juno.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: Cubic Dollars


>Greg,
>
>That is very interesting.  Where can I get documentation on that fact?  I
>am always interested in what the constitution REALLY says, rather than
>some of the more <ahem> interesting interpretations that I have seen.
>
>The next time I am called to jury duty, I would like to have in my hands
>documentation that I have the right to judge the law as well as the
>defendant.  That would keep me from being forced to convict someone of a
>crime that shouldn't exist.
>
>Of course, the real effect of such paperwork would probablly be to get me
>excused from the jury.  I would need to find a way to keep that from
>happening.
>
>Ray Drouillard
>
>
>
>On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:39:39 -0700 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes:
>>>Scully agrees with that one Mulder.
>>
>>Yep--and remember that John Adams (yes, that one) argued that the Bill 
>>of
>>Rights was unnecessary cuz "NO JURY WOULD EVER CONVICT ANYBODY UNDER 
>>AN
>>UNREASONABLE, UNJUST LAW, ANYWAY!"  Jury nullification was an accepted 
>>part
>>of English (and thus American, unless you are from Louisiana) law from 
>>when
>>the Magna Carta was signed until the Rockefellers, Carnegies, Mellons,
>>Morgans, Harrimans, etc. told the gummint that it should henceforth be
>>called "JURY LAWLESSNESS!!" The framers considered the jury of peers 
>>to be
>>the ultimate check and balance in their newly designed system of
>>government. Really, the law on this subject has NOT changed, they just 
>>try
>>to tell us that it has!!! Jurors have the right to judge the law as 
>>well as
>>the facts in any case before them! Think about it!!
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>---Robert Harris <bob at bobthecomputerguy.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The question of your rights to hack GM or other ECU's vs the
>>>Manufacturers
>>>> boil down to two words -  Cubic Dollars.   If or when it is
>>>perceived by GM et
>>>> al to be in GM's interest to end the practice, it will end.   GM 
>>has
>>>> historically crushed competition without regard to anything other
>>>than it was
>>>> good for GM.  Count on it.
>>>>
>>>> Start with sheer absolute weight of lawyers - how many thousand can
>>>you afford
>>>> to defend with?   Then if you do start to get an edge - how many 
>>cubic
>>>> lobbyist can you afford?  GM can and has had the law routinely
>>>changed to suit
>>>> GM.
>>>>
>>>> When it was in Bill Gates interest to crush OS-2, cheap counterfeit
>>>windows
>>>> flooded the market.  Now that it is not - the software police are
>>>out in force
>>>> and MS openly states that it intends to have the 100,000 $
>>>prescribed by law
>>>> fines levied on individuals to end the practice.  Bill Gates can 
>>and
>>>is taking
>>>> everything including the house of anyone they catch.
>>>>
>>>> Before you start to whine and snivel about rights - think campaign
>>>> contributions.  How many bucks to how many Klintonian officials
>>>campaigns can
>>>> you fatten vs GM.   Not fair?  - who said GM or life or God was 
>>fair?
>>>>
>>>> And do not forget that the tax paid gnomes and drones of the evil
>>>empire
>>>> AmeriKa will gladly crush you with the full weight and force of law
>>>if it
>>>> pleases their masters.   Think not - remember Janet Reno's barbecue
>>>where 84
>>>> people found out what happens when thief religion was not BATF
>>>approved.
>>>>
>>>> Am I cynical - absolutely.  Do I disapprove - absolutely NOT.   Do
>>>it, enjoy
>>>> the holiday - but don't be surprised when Cubic Dollars descend to
>>>end the
>>>> practice.
>>>>
>>>> 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
>>>> 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
>>>> 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
>>>> 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"
>>>>
>>>> Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore
>>>>
>>>
>>>_________________________________________________________
>>>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]



From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 27 20:37:17 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:37:17 -0500
Subject: Project 101 note
Message-ID: <mailman.32921.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

When doing the 101 stuff early one, things were simple, but in the
last few days, I think I better refine some items.
   All the "stuff" you'll want to change/edit for doing a new calibration,
for a 165 or 730 will be between 0000 and 1000.  While that is a 
lot af area, it does narrow it down on the 128K, and 256K chips.
  Now on the 730's with the 256K proms, you might find what
look like 2 timing tables, and two spark tables.  That is correct.
one being idle, and one being road.  The road will apprear as all
the tables there are in 101, for timing, and spark.   The idle tables
generally look rather dumb in nature, ie not many changes, like a
whole corner of it might be 20d (an area 5x6)..   Also the rpm steps
might be 200 rpm so everything is very compressed.
  If some one has "more" correct accurate names for them please
post them.
  Again, this is for learning the technecs of engine management,
and design.  Using this information of a vehicle driven on a public
road may be illegal.  It is the users responsibility to address the
legal isssues.  Incorrect, improper, poorly informed changing of
the ecm's code, tables, switches, settings, can ruin a fine engine
very quickly it is again the users responsibility to check matters as
he goes.  For further details Please read the rest of programming
101/808, and tuning tips at the archives.
Bruce



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Wed Jan 27 21:03:33 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:03:33 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.32922.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Now there's a question for the archive search engine....  Here's what I
found:

Honda part number 395986 from 1993 Honda Civic VX
* This is a UEGO exhaust sensor:
* Cost $130ish
* Has same wires and colors as the NTK $600 sensor..
* Same compensating resistance in the plug too...
* The UEGO body markings are the same as the one from 
  Horiba ($900+) MEXA analyzer ..

* Honda wiring diags from Civic VX show same ckt. annotations
  as the NTK fax I received .. 

  For heater:     orange  Vh+
                  yellow  Vh-

  For Sensor:     red     Vs+
                  black   Vs- / Ip-
                  white   Ip+

--------------------------

That info used to be in the EFI reference list, but it's not in the
current parts list.  Probably should be added.

--steve

Mike Pitts wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Can someone give me the exact years, models and VIN
> identification codes for the Honda's which have the
> "lean burn" (ie:wideband O2) engines?
> 
> I'd like to try and hunt down a scrapyard ECM from
> one.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Mike


From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 27 21:07:31 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:31 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32923.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>The way I know, the crush sleeve is only used to hold the inner bearing
>races against the pinion gear to keep the races from rotating relative to
>the pinion.  It doesn't take any gear loads.  You could remove the crush
>sleeve and loctite the inner races to the pinion.

Ya gotta look close, first off it's helical cut, so the pinion is pushed
away from the ring, when loaded. The rear pinion bearing is a
fulcrum point for the pinion gear climbing the ring.  As the housing
twists, and bends everything in it moves around.
  It can get so bad on say a light 4 cyl car that you add a turbo to,
the the wear pattern can't be duplicated with Prussian Blue, before
disassembly...
Bruce

>
>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>
>>
>>Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the
companion
>>flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve
beyond
>>where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too
>>long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them!
>>
>>The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production
>>situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance
>>application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive
>>pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!!
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>
>



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Wed Jan 27 21:09:33 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:09:33 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.32924.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I think netscape ate my previous reply.  What an unadulterated piece of
trash it is.  Maybe it'll get better when AOL owns it (ha ha ha).

Anyway, questions about part numbers and the like are great for the
archive search engine.  Also you can check in the parts section of the
WWW page (although this sensor is not listed...)  Here's the answer:

Honda part number 395986 from 1993 Honda Civic VX
* This is a UEGO exhaust sensor:
* Cost $130ish
* Has same wires and colors as the NTK $600 sensor..
* Same compensating resistance in the plug too...
* The UEGO body markings are the same as the one from 
  Horiba ($900+) MEXA analyzer ..

* Honda wiring diags from Civic VX show same ckt. annotations
  as the NTK fax I received .. 

  For heater:     orange  Vh+
                  yellow  Vh-

  For Sensor:     red     Vs+
                  black   Vs- / Ip-
                  white   Ip+



Mike Pitts wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Can someone give me the exact years, models and VIN
> identification codes for the Honda's which have the
> "lean burn" (ie:wideband O2) engines?
> 
> I'd like to try and hunt down a scrapyard ECM from
> one.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Mike


From Tim.Van.Setten at CAS.honeywell.com  Wed Jan 27 21:18:16 1999
From: Tim.Van.Setten at CAS.honeywell.com (Van Setten, Tim (AZ75))
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:18:16 -0500
Subject: Intake Runner Length
Message-ID: <mailman.32925.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi All.  
I've been reading your posts here for awhile and learned alot, but now it's
time to ask for help.  We have been fuel injecting our sand rails here in
the southwest now for about 10 years or so.  We are using a speed density
system and also a dual-fuel setup.  We turbo charge our little girlie 2300cc
VW's in a 900 lb car and head to the sand dunes.  The dual fuel is
accomplished by adding a second set of injectors and injecting methanol only
under boost.  This makes these air-cooled engines very happy and stops all
of the pinging problems etc. associated with 15 lbs of boost.  
Now we are playing around with the drive-ability issues.  We want to try
different intake manifold combinations.  
The question is: What size and length should the intake runners be and also
what size should the intake plenum be?  Bruce Bowling's program addresses
the length, but he left out the "diameter" of the runner and I have to
believe that it will make a difference on how big it is.  Also, the
relationship of the plenum, is it sized to the max rpm, or to engine
displacement, or what?  Any comments would be very helpful.
Tim 



From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 27 21:26:51 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:26:51 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.32926.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

92-95 Honda Civic, 1.5L VTEC 5 wire  36531-P07-003.
I bought this number, and know it works.  It is an NTK,
and at least one laboratory grade WR O2 machine uses
it but with their own connector.
Bruce
>
>Honda part number 395986 from 1993 Honda Civic VX
>* This is a UEGO exhaust sensor:
>* Cost $130ish
>* Has same wires and colors as the NTK $600 sensor..
>* Same compensating resistance in the plug too...
>* The UEGO body markings are the same as the one from 
>  Horiba ($900+) MEXA analyzer ..
>
>* Honda wiring diags from Civic VX show same ckt. annotations
>  as the NTK fax I received .. 
>
>  For heater:     orange  Vh+
>                  yellow  Vh-
>
>  For Sensor:     red     Vs+
>                  black   Vs- / Ip-
>                  white   Ip+
>
>
>
>Mike Pitts wrote:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Can someone give me the exact years, models and VIN
>> identification codes for the Honda's which have the
>> "lean burn" (ie:wideband O2) engines?
>> 
>> I'd like to try and hunt down a scrapyard ECM from
>> one.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> -Mike
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan 27 21:36:35 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:36:35 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32927.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>The way I know, the crush sleeve is only used to hold the inner bearing
>races against the pinion gear to keep the races from rotating relative to
>the pinion.  It doesn't take any gear loads.  You could remove the crush
>sleeve and loctite the inner races to the pinion.
>
>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>
Yes, you are right that it does not take any gear loads, Gary. But if you
put a really impressive torque on the flange nut, you will get excessive
pre-load on the bearings. I prefer the concept of pre-stressing the pinion
shaft in tension between the two bearing against a solid shim. Plus, if you
put any intermittent (stray) axial load against the flange (as this guy did
with a too long drive shaft), the sleeve will get loose pretty quickly.

Basically, I HATE them, think they a production shortcut, and that their
only redeeming social value is cost savings, and that they should be
removed at the first opportunity. Most serious racers would agree with my
position, I think!!

Regards, Greg
>>
>>Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the companion
>>flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve beyond
>>where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too
>>long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them!
>>
>>The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production
>>situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance
>>application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive
>>pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!!
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>




From zxv at istar.ca  Wed Jan 27 21:42:40 1999
From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:42:40 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32928.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

just passing along this interesting 'kit' I just caught off another list

"Found this pretty cool looking program that acts as a home dyno and
produces HP and torque curves for 40 bucks and an inductive pickup off
your timing light it seems alot cheaper than a G-tech.  Everybodys got a
PC and a recorder of some kind don't they?

The website is listed below:

http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/homedyno/dynokit.htm"


Ross Corrigan  /  Vancouver, Canada 

 '80 327ZX   IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR        
Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the
straights

mailto:zxv at istar.ca     *New ICQ # 11549358
http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml
http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg


From ECMnut at aol.com  Wed Jan 27 21:49:23 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:49:23 -0500
Subject: Injector query
Message-ID: <mailman.32929.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Doesn't appear to be a Bosch number..  Any logo or designon it?
Mike V

> hey are black with a blue stripe painted all the way around it. They have
>  a bosch type o-ring connection and have dual spray holes. 
>  They have the following numbers printed on one side: D5162FA
>  And the following on the other side: 913512


From JemisonR at tce.com  Wed Jan 27 21:57:01 1999
From: JemisonR at tce.com (Jemison Richard)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:57:01 -0500
Subject: Intake Runner Length
Message-ID: <mailman.32930.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Tim,

Runner dia affects flow dynamics.  The larger the dia, the more air totally
will flow but the slower it will move and the slower the column of air in
the intake tube will react to changes in throttle position (causing lags in
response).  There is a formula for determining these runners but it escapes
me right now.  Check out Smith and Morrison's "Scientific Design of Intake
and Exhaust Systems).  This is in print and available through Amazon among
others.

rick

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Van Setten, Tim (AZ75) [SMTP:Tim.Van.Setten at CAS.honeywell.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:14 PM
> To:	'DIY-EFI'
> Subject:	Intake Runner Length
> 
> Hi All.  
> I've been reading your posts here for awhile and learned alot, but now
> it's
> time to ask for help.  We have been fuel injecting our sand rails here in
> the southwest now for about 10 years or so.  We are using a speed density
> system and also a dual-fuel setup.  We turbo charge our little girlie
> 2300cc
> VW's in a 900 lb car and head to the sand dunes.  The dual fuel is
> accomplished by adding a second set of injectors and injecting methanol
> only
> under boost.  This makes these air-cooled engines very happy and stops all
> of the pinging problems etc. associated with 15 lbs of boost.  
> Now we are playing around with the drive-ability issues.  We want to try
> different intake manifold combinations.  
> The question is: What size and length should the intake runners be and
> also
> what size should the intake plenum be?  Bruce Bowling's program addresses
> the length, but he left out the "diameter" of the runner and I have to
> believe that it will make a difference on how big it is.  Also, the
> relationship of the plenum, is it sized to the max rpm, or to engine
> displacement, or what?  Any comments would be very helpful.
> Tim 


From israels at MNSi.Net  Wed Jan 27 22:03:57 1999
From: israels at MNSi.Net (Todd Israels)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:03:57 -0500
Subject: VSS
Message-ID: <mailman.32931.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 09:01 PM 1/26/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Could someone tell me what functions the VSS signal might affect in the 92
>3.1L V6 Camaro ECM.  The motor/ECM came off a manual tranny car and my
>project car application won't have this signal available unless I install an
>aftermarket speed sensor.  Do I need this signal?
>
>Mike
>V6 Opel GT
>
>
>
	The VSS affects the operation of the speed cut out(usualy set at max for
stock tiers, but aerodinamic stability can be a factor if deffeted).
Accuracy of signal(pulses per mile) is improtant to work as desired.
	The VSS is also factored in to the TCC operation, and possibly shift light
and I assume requires an accurate signal.  
	One of my books states that VSS is also used for idle stablization and
driveability at low RPM.  In thier descriptions this appears to be a
Moving/still switch and no great accuracy required.  
	A simple /2 of VSS signal will raise speed cut out and not affect
driveability but do not know the affects on TCC operation.




From mayerk at idt.net  Wed Jan 27 22:22:21 1999
From: mayerk at idt.net (Ken Mayer)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:22:21 -0500
Subject: Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32932.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> From: Dan Llewellyn2 <DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com>
> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:19:35 -0500
> 
> This is not exactly EFI related - but my local sources have
> been unable to help me.
> 
> I am trying to build an experimental transmission.  It uses
> an internal gear (teeth on the inside) and a spur gear (teeth
> on the outside) that rotates inside the first gear.  My only
> requirement is that the internal gear needs to have exactly
> twice the teeth of the spur gear (and mesh, of course).
> 
> I went some automatic transmission shops, but all the sets
> of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
> are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
> sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
> buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
> the cheapest way to get some quality gears.
> 
> Any ideas?

Post your question to rec.crafts.metalworking.  There are a number of
sources for such gears.  Also take a look at the suppliers list on the
metalworking faq.  You can reach it through www.loganact.com, just follow
the links.

Ken
:-)



From mpitts at netspeak.com  Wed Jan 27 22:26:45 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:26:45 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.32933.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Thanks for the reply Steve.  I already know the number 
of the O2 sensor, what I need is a way to identify the 
*ECM* used in the same vehicle.  I want to go junkyarding 
and scrounging for one (ECM not the O2...although...if 
the O2 is there I will certainly snag it!)

So let me rephrase:

If I'm in a junkyard looking at a bunch of crushed Hondas, 
whats the easiest way to tell if one of them is the lean 
burn model?  Is the O2 sensor easily locatable and readable? 
Where is the ECM located in the car if I do find such a car? 
Is the 'VX' part of the outer badging on the car?  Are they 
more plentiful in particular geographic areas (ie: California 
or other problematic air quality centers)?  Should I just 
look under the hood of all the Hondas to see if they have a 
5-wire O2?

Thanks,
-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of steve ravet
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:52 PM
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Honda ident. request

Honda part number 395986 from 1993 Honda Civic VX
* This is a UEGO exhaust sensor:

<snip>


From mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca  Wed Jan 27 22:38:20 1999
From: mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Matt Beaubien)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:38:20 -0500
Subject: Example DFI maps.
Message-ID: <mailman.32934.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi all,

I'm helping a fried dyno his Ford 302 c/w Vortec R-trim, intercooler, SVO
heads etc.  He bought a DFI map from some guy with a "similar" combination
that has turned out to be way off. For instance, he had 10% fuel enrichment
from 150F on up...  In addition, it was so rich at an idle/startup, the IAC
couldn't supply enough air and ran like crap.  Taking 20% fuel away from it
everywhere helped a bunch, but still needs some fine tuning.  At an 1100 RPM
idle, the PW is ~1.9ms but seems to work ok for the big cam (~250 at .050"). 

I'm interested in general trends of constant map vs RPM, and map vs constant
RPM.  For a given MAP value, the PW should follow the torque curve, correct?
How much should the PW go up for an increase in MAP?

If anyone has any sample DFI maps they've created, I'd be very interested in
taking a look at them.  If the engine is blown (as in artificially
aspirated), so much the better ;-).

Thanks.


Matt Beaubien
mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
3 x 510
1 x 300ZXT




From jweir at worldnet.att.net  Wed Jan 27 22:46:39 1999
From: jweir at worldnet.att.net (Jason Weir)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:46:39 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32935.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

It works as advertised, not too sure of its accuracy but I do see
changes in the curves when changing calibrations.  The thing was
repeatable, what I mean is the same stretch of road at the same temp
through the same rpm range got the same resulting hp and tq curve.


Jason


Ross Corrigan wrote:
> 
> just passing along this interesting 'kit' I just caught off another list
> 
> "Found this pretty cool looking program that acts as a home dyno and
> produces HP and torque curves for 40 bucks and an inductive pickup off
> your timing light it seems alot cheaper than a G-tech.  Everybodys got a
> PC and a recorder of some kind don't they?
> 
> The website is listed below:
> 
> http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/homedyno/dynokit.htm"
> 
> Ross Corrigan  /  Vancouver, Canada
> 
>  '80 327ZX   IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR
> Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the
> straights
> 
> mailto:zxv at istar.ca     *New ICQ # 11549358
> http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml
> http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg


From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 27 22:57:32 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:57:32 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.32936.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I don't like these answers, but it is all I got.

>
>If I'm in a junkyard looking at a bunch of crushed Hondas, 
>whats the easiest way to tell if one of them is the lean 
>burn model?

Under hood emission sticker

  Is the O2 sensor easily locatable and readable?

Exhaust manifold right by radiator 

>Where is the ECM located in the car if I do find such a car? 

By passangers feet.

>Is the 'VX' part of the outer badging on the car?  Are they 
>more plentiful in particular geographic areas (ie: California 
>or other problematic air quality centers)?  Should I just 
>look under the hood of all the Hondas to see if they have a 
>5-wire O2?

Not all 5 wires are what ya want.
Bruce
>
>Thanks,
>-Mike




From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Jan 27 23:22:16 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:22:16 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32937.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

They claim the software doesn't estimate power, it measures it.  But
further down the page they tell you it's ok to estimate the variables
used in the horsepower calculations.  Ahh, well.  Kinda like using a
crush sleeve, eh?
Shannen

> 
Ross Corrigan wrote:
> 
> just passing along this interesting 'kit' I just caught off another list
> 
> "Found this pretty cool looking program that acts as a home dyno and
> produces HP and torque curves for 40 bucks and an inductive pickup off
> your timing light it seems alot cheaper than a G-tech.  Everybodys got a
> PC and a recorder of some kind don't they?
> 
> The website is listed below:
> 
> http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/homedyno/dynokit.htm"
> 
> Ross Corrigan  /  Vancouver, Canada
> 
>  '80 327ZX   IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR
> Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the
> straights
> 
> mailto:zxv at istar.ca     *New ICQ # 11549358
> http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml
> http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Wed Jan 27 23:28:32 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:28:32 -0500
Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32938.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:
> 
> This is not exactly EFI related - but my local sources have
> been unable to help me.
> 
> I am trying to build an experimental transmission.  It uses
> an internal gear (teeth on the inside) and a spur gear (teeth
> on the outside) that rotates inside the first gear.  My only
> requirement is that the internal gear needs to have exactly
> twice the teeth of the spur gear (and mesh, of course).
> 
> I went some automatic transmission shops, but all the sets
> of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
> are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
> sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
> buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
> the cheapest way to get some quality gears.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> TIA
> 
> Dan L
You will have to have at least one of the gears custom made. I have
TRIED to find automotive gearing for this exact setup - but looking for
just OFF the 2.0:1 ratio. There are a few sun gears (GM 700) that match
a few ring gears (ford c3 if I remember correctly) with the right lead
on the helix, but the ratio is too steep.


From bearbvd at sni.net  Wed Jan 27 23:44:01 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:44:01 -0500
Subject: Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32939.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>> From: Dan Llewellyn2 <DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com>
>> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:19:35 -0500
>>
>> This is not exactly EFI related - but my local sources have
>> been unable to help me.
>>
>> I am trying to build an experimental transmission.  It uses
>> an internal gear (teeth on the inside) and a spur gear (teeth
>> on the outside) that rotates inside the first gear.  My only
>> requirement is that the internal gear needs to have exactly
>> twice the teeth of the spur gear (and mesh, of course).
>>
>> I went some automatic transmission shops, but all the sets
>> of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
>> are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
>> sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
>> buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
>> the cheapest way to get some quality gears.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>
>Post your question to rec.crafts.metalworking.  There are a number of
>sources for such gears.  Also take a look at the suppliers list on the
>metalworking faq.  You can reach it through www.loganact.com, just follow
>the links.
>
>Ken
>:-)
Try Boston Gear.

Greg




From glc797 at bellsouth.net  Wed Jan 27 23:44:52 1999
From: glc797 at bellsouth.net (GARY CHAMBERLAIN)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:44:52 -0500
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <mailman.32940.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

unsubscibe



From nacelp at bright.net  Wed Jan 27 23:50:27 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:50:27 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32941.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Depends on what eh, means
Bruce        Doc's thinking about going to law school.......


>They claim the software doesn't estimate power, it measures it.  But
>further down the page they tell you it's ok to estimate the variables
>used in the horsepower calculations.  Ahh, well.  Kinda like using a
>crush sleeve, eh?
>Shannen




From dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us  Wed Jan 27 23:50:50 1999
From: dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us (David Sagers)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:50:50 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32942.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In answer to the request for a source and something to read for yourself, concerning the meaning of the US Constitution.  Find yourself a copy of the Citizens' Handbook.

It's a small (3.5" X 7") 45 page booklet that has the Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, the Constitution and a couple of other important documents.

My copy was printed by Freedom Partner's in Washington DC, 202 833-2234.  Also, most conservative book & tape stores will carry these booklets, and many organization give them away for the asking.  Even if you have to pay a  couple of bucks, it's worth it. 



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Wed Jan 27 23:57:31 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:57:31 -0500
Subject: Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32943.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> >> From: Dan Llewellyn2 <DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com>
> >> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:19:35 -0500
> >>
> >> This is not exactly EFI related - but my local sources have
> >> been unable to help me.
> >>
> >> I am trying to build an experimental transmission.  It uses
> >> an internal gear (teeth on the inside) and a spur gear (teeth
> >> on the outside) that rotates inside the first gear.  My only
> >> requirement is that the internal gear needs to have exactly
> >> twice the teeth of the spur gear (and mesh, of course).
> >>
> >> I went some automatic transmission shops, but all the sets
> >> of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
> >> are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
> >> sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
> >> buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
> >> the cheapest way to get some quality gears.
> >>
> >> Any ideas?
> >
> >Post your question to rec.crafts.metalworking.  There are a number of
> >sources for such gears.  Also take a look at the suppliers list on the
> >metalworking faq.  You can reach it through www.loganact.com, just follow
> >the links.
> >
> >Ken
> >:-)
> Try Boston Gear.
> 
> Greg
They don't have 'em. I looked.


From twsharpe at mtco.com  Thu Jan 28 00:02:27 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:02:27 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32944.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



espace wrote:

> Well I for one am really impressed that this group has so many that know something of
> nullification, and so many that are interested. Far from a normal group of bozos here!:-)
>
> As for efi content, anybody here got any evidence of what effect washing down the cylinder
> walls with fuel has on compression??? I've a rig of questionable background(85300zx turbo)
> that is varying from 30#-85# and there's 18 hours labor in r&r'ing the heads. I'd really
> hate to invest this much in the thing(gaskets are probably 300$) just to find that fuel
> or condensate had caused such. It has only 100k miles on it.

I had the same problem with my 500 mile motor. Mine was excessively rich between 2 and 4K rpm
at WOT then went lean. It washed the rings right out on the floor.   Regards  Tom





From c95fsg at cs.umu.se  Thu Jan 28 00:08:10 1999
From: c95fsg at cs.umu.se (Fredrik Skog)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:08:10 -0500
Subject: Injector query
Message-ID: <mailman.32945.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 ECMnut at aol.com wrote:

No it has nothing indicating from what manufacturer it's from.

> Doesn't appear to be a Bosch number..  Any logo or designon it?
> Mike V
> 
> > hey are black with a blue stripe painted all the way around it. They have
> >  a bosch type o-ring connection and have dual spray holes. 
> >  They have the following numbers printed on one side: D5162FA
> >  And the following on the other side: 913512
> 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University

Fredrik Skog			       E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se
Taffelstr?ket 51		       WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog/
903 53 Ume?                            Phone: +46-(0)90-136365

		Living and dying laughing and crying
		Once you have seen it you will never be the same
		Life in the fast lane is just how it seems
		Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean   
							/MetallicA



From mpitts at netspeak.com  Thu Jan 28 00:14:41 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:14:41 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32946.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Seems like if you had a fast (8192 baud) home brew scan tool, 
you could measure RPM and MPH and make the same calculations, 
probably a bit more precisely since you would have MPH as an 
input rather than a calculation.

Anyone know the math for this off-hand?  Might as well add it 
to my cutom scan software (for 16198625 PCM's only, sorry).

Cool idea though.  Very creative with the inductive coil into 
the microphone jack.

-Mike


From chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  Thu Jan 28 00:16:51 1999
From: chickens at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jake Sternberg)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:16:51 -0500
Subject: 92 cavalier ECM info!?
Message-ID: <mailman.32947.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I need to know what ECM was used in a
1992 cavalier with the 2.2L four banger (8 valve).

And also hopefully what calibration is used, and
if you have any BINs that work with that setup,
please send them.  Or maybe you have a wire harness
from that application.

thanks!!!!!
-jake       chickens at mail.utexas.edu




From twsharpe at mtco.com  Thu Jan 28 00:17:11 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:17:11 -0500
Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32948.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:

> This is not exactly EFI related - but my local sources have
> been unable to help me.
>
> I am trying to build an experimental transmission.  It uses
> an internal gear (teeth on the inside) and a spur gear (teeth
> on the outside) that rotates inside the first gear.  My only
> requirement is that the internal gear needs to have exactly
> twice the teeth of the spur gear (and mesh, of course).
>
> I went some automatic transmission shops, but all the sets
> of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
> are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
> sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
> buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
> the cheapest way to get some quality gears.

You can get 1.82/1 planetaries from Powerglides. (or a Lenco)  Tom



From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Thu Jan 28 00:26:30 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:26:30 -0500
Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32949.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:

> of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
> are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
> sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
> buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
> the cheapest way to get some quality gears.
> 
Cant think of any AT combinations that would do this. Try an industrial
supply house for something like this. Browning is a brand name that comes
to mind,  but there are many others.




From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Thu Jan 28 00:31:53 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:31:53 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32950.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Greg Hermann wrote:

> >
> IIRC--The DF used a five element converter--pump, turbine, and three
> stators, do not recall any switch pitch being involved. Again, IIRC, the
> tranny was 2 forward, 1 reverse,

If you put it in drive, it started in high gear [1 to 1 ratio] and didnt
shift. There was a low range, which was for "emergencies" and was engaged
by shifting into low. No DF started in low then shifted to high like a 2
speed.

 with a LOT of similarities to the Chebby
> Power Glide. At the beginning, (late '40's) I think the only difference
> between a Dyna Flow and a Power Glide was the name.
> 
There is about a 70 pound weight difference to start with...early PGs
didnt shift, they changed them about 1953 to start in low then upshift to
high gear, the same time that they changed to a 3 element convertor. 




From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 28 01:09:57 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:09:57 -0500
Subject: 92 cavalier ECM info!?
Message-ID: <mailman.32951.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Looks to take a 16134847, no bins, or harnesses here, thou
Bruce


>I need to know what ECM was used in a
>1992 cavalier with the 2.2L four banger (8 valve).
>And also hopefully what calibration is used, and
>if you have any BINs that work with that setup,
>please send them.  Or maybe you have a wire harness
>from that application.
>thanks!!!!!
>-jake       chickens at mail.utexas.edu




From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com  Thu Jan 28 01:14:43 1999
From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:14:43 -0500
Subject: '165 donor vehicle needed
Message-ID: <mailman.32952.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


hi.
after some research I've figured out that I should play with a 1227165. the
ludis page gives me some ideas as to the type of gm vehicle that had a 4 cyl
tbi application.

1987 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "E"
1988 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "E"
1989 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "E"
1990 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "E"
1991 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "E"
1991-93 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "A"

my app is for a 2.0 liter engine, and I need to run a tbi system, however
the junkyards I've talked to on-line about buying the wiring harness, ECU,
sensors, etc tell me that they can't find a gm truck that has one, (they
can't dig up the truck model). was this for a S-10 ? I need to tell them the
precise info, model, year , engine they aren't generally too creative with
'find me a '165' .

can someone give me a model example ? this didn't use a crank sensor or
anything too fancy like that did it ? 

thanks, Ted.


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Thu Jan 28 01:20:33 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:20:33 -0500
Subject: Project 101 note
Message-ID: <mailman.32953.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> When doing the 101 stuff early one, things were simple, but in the
> last few days, I think I better refine some items.
>    All the "stuff" you'll want to change/edit for doing a new calibration,
> for a 165 or 730 will be between 0000 and 1000.  While that is a 
> lot af area, it does narrow it down on the 128K, and 256K chips.
>   Now on the 730's with the 256K proms, you might find what
> look like 2 timing tables, and two spark tables.  That is correct.
> one being idle, and one being road.  The road will apprear as all
> the tables there are in 101, for timing, and spark.   The idle tables
> generally look rather dumb in nature, ie not many changes, like a
> whole corner of it might be 20d (an area 5x6)..   Also the rpm steps
> might be 200 rpm so everything is very compressed.

On my computer for a 93 Z28 with a 256Kbit, or 32KByte prom all of the
calibrations are 0x0000-0x1000 (mapped to 0x8000-0x9000).
0x9000-0xA000 is completely 0x00.   The code starts
at 0xA000 and runs pretty much to the end of the prom.

I am still trying to work out where alot of the tables are, and
exactly what everything controls.

			Roger



From jamesm at talarian.com  Thu Jan 28 01:27:54 1999
From: jamesm at talarian.com (James Montebello)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:27:54 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32954.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Seems like if you had a fast (8192 baud) home brew scan tool, 
> you could measure RPM and MPH and make the same calculations, 
> probably a bit more precisely since you would have MPH as an 
> input rather than a calculation.
> 
> Anyone know the math for this off-hand?  Might as well add it 
> to my cutom scan software (for 16198625 PCM's only, sorry).

 P = mass * (dV/dT) * V

 P is in Watts (/746 for HP)
 mass is in kg (*2.2 for lbs)
 dV is "delta V" (change in velocity, in meters/sec)
 dT is "delta T" (change in time, in seconds)
 V is in meters/sec (*3.3 for ft/sec)

This doesn't compensate for drag or driveline losses, which
the $40 software attempts to.  This does give you a repeatable
number with identical conditions, though.

james montebello


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Thu Jan 28 01:35:29 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:35:29 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32955.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Mike Pitts wrote:

> 
> Seems like if you had a fast (8192 baud) home brew scan tool, 
> you could measure RPM and MPH and make the same calculations, 
> probably a bit more precisely since you would have MPH as an 
> input rather than a calculation.
> 
> Anyone know the math for this off-hand?  Might as well add it 
> to my cutom scan software (for 16198625 PCM's only, sorry).
> 
> Cool idea though.  Very creative with the inductive coil into 
> the microphone jack.
> 

I tried using the diacom data to get this sort of info.  I have 7
samples per second 8192 baud.  It does not work.  The rpm and mph are
too coarse.  1mph and 25 rpm don't give enough resolution to be able
hp over a short range.  To get reasonably smooth data I was having to
average over 7-10 samples (almost a second, and a pretty wide rpm
range). At 7 samples per second, the mph takes several samples to
change, so you really cannot get accurate acceleration numbers, and
this was the reason for having to average over a wide range. 

If you adjusted the computer and had some way to get more accurate mph
numbers then it would probably be workable.  But with 1 mph resolution
it won't work very well.

You might be able to setup an interpolation type equation for the mph
and get alot better guess.   I have a program (quick basic) to read a
diacom dbf file and do this sort of processing.  I will revisit doing
this, since I already have some code that may work with interpolation.

				Roger



From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Thu Jan 28 01:55:44 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:55:44 -0500
Subject: Bosch/Buick crossbreed
Message-ID: <mailman.32956.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


 I've made some progress on my EFI transplant.  I have a '79 Buick 3.8
V6 going into my '84 Mazda pickup.  The engine was, of course,
carbureted in its original form.  I acquired an '82 Toyota Celica Supra
EFI setup for free, though it took almost three days to extract the
harness and bits from the Toyota.  The Supra's EFI is a Bosch L-Jetronic
made under license to Nippon Denso.

 The first order of the day was to acquire a Buick EFI intake manifold.
I managed to snag one, complete with rail, injectors, and regulator, for
$20.  The runners are visibly smaller than the ports in the heads, and
quite short, shorter than some tunnel ram intakes I've seen.  The
manifold is off an FWD car, so the throttle body will point back toward
the firewall in my application.  I will have to use an elbow to turn the
air path to get to the air filter.

 Oddly enough, the Supra's throttle body was about 3mm larger in
diameter than the hole in the Buick intake.  I whittled a 3/8" aluminum
adapter plate on the milling machine and drill press.  Since the
throttle body's linkage fouled the water neck (which is at the back of
the intake, as I'm using it) I flipped the throttle body upside down.
It will mean a little more work with the throttle linkage, but it fits a
lot better that way.

 The Buick fuel rail has a Bosch part number, and the Buick fuel
pressure regulator says "Bosch" right on it.  Hmm, I thought all that
stuff would be Rochester.  The regulator fouled the throttle linkage,
which I'd already flipped to avoid fouling the water outlet.  Dang.  I
sawed the regulator off just past the last injector boss.  The Supra's
regulator setup looked different, but worked the same way as the Buick
one, except instead of being attached to the rail itself, it is fed
through a line that attaches to the rail with a banjo bolt.  I sawed the
threaded boss off the Supra's fuel rail.  The OD of the Buick rail is
close to 3/4"; a nice side cut on the Supra's banjo boss with a 3/4" end
mill and it will be close enough.

 Looking at the Buick rail, I can't tell if it's welded, brazed, or
soldered together.  I'll be attaching the threaded boss to a ~4" long
space between the last two injectors; the plan is to braze it in place.
I'm kind of leery about soldering something like that.

 The Supra's injectors are odd - the ends are longer and smaller in
diameter than 'normal' Bendix type injectors.  They should work with the
proper O-rings - I will be checking on those later.

 The Buick was SEFI.  The L-Jetronic is batch, three at a time.  Ford
5.0 SEFI fuel tails are no more than 3/8"; the Buick rails are enormous
by comparison at 3/4".  I have a Bosch "pulsator" around somewhere, I'll
probably plumb that in.  Bosch puts them on the feed side, between the
rail and the pump.

 After finishing up the fuel rail, I get to make some metric to NPT
bushings to mount the Bosch water temp senders, etc.  Then I get to
untape the wiring harness and carefully extract all the EFI bits from
the rest.

 Hartman says in his EFI book that the L-Jet will recognize the spark
signal from a GM HEI.  Shouldn't be too long before I bench test the
thing.

==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                                                                                  


From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Thu Jan 28 01:56:34 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:56:34 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.32957.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> I heard once that the dynaflow lacked torque multiplication, and was
-> very high revving and noisy.  If I can remember, I'll try to dig out
-> a manual for it when I get back to my reference library.

 A friend had a '57 Buick with a 364? V8 back when we were in high
school.  It had the Dynaflow.  The car wasn't very fast off the line,
not as fast as a '56 Chevy with a 283 and Powerglide, but once it got
rolling, it felt pretty ordinary.

 After Ron put glasspacks on it, it was very strange.  The engine would
rev up when you pushed down on the pedal (the starter switch was built
into the gas pedal, btw) and just sit at a pretty constant RPM while the
car accelerated.  It did it before, but it wasn't as obvious with the
quiet mufflers.  It was a lot like a CVT.
                                                        


From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 28 01:59:12 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:59:12 -0500
Subject: 92 cavalier ECM info!?
Message-ID: <mailman.32958.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Jake Sternberg wrote:
> 
> I need to know what ECM was used in a
> 1992 cavalier with the 2.2L four banger (8 valve).
> 
ECM # is 16134847

> And also hopefully what calibration is used, and
Following part no's are latest cal.s for federal emissions and A/C.

Auto trans:   16184411 BCXT/4424
Manual Trans: 16191791 BFKV/2077

Note that this ecm is reprogrammable by the dealer.

>if you have any BINs that work with that setup,
> please send them.  Or maybe you have a wire harness
> from that application.
> 
> thanks!!!!!
> -jake       chickens at mail.utexas.edu



From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 28 02:00:46 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:00:46 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32959.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 8:50 PM
Subject: RE: <all> home dyno kit??

If you have ABS just pick a signal of a wheel speed sensor.  Divide it with
some
divide by ten counters an a couple 555's to run a 4066 on and off with a
stop
watch.
Cheers
Bruce


>> Seems like if you had a fast (8192 baud) home brew scan tool,
>> you could measure RPM and MPH and make the same calculations,
>> probably a bit more precisely since you would have MPH as an
>> input rather than a calculation.
>> Anyone know the math for this off-hand?  Might as well add it
>> to my cutom scan software (for 16198625 PCM's only, sorry).
>> Cool idea though.  Very creative with the inductive coil into
>> the microphone jack.




From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 28 02:21:04 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:21:04 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32960.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi All--

Some more thoughts on ecm's and their code and copyrights:

1. A copyright is something that must be actively obtained by the original
creator of copyrightable material. One of the active steps which must be
taken to protect one's copyright interests is to mark each copy of the
material with the symbol (c in a circle) and date, and the creator's name.
(This may be done only on the copyright page of a bound book, to be
sufficient.) For loose leaf stuff, like engineering plans or
specifications, it is far wiser to mark each sheet if you want protection.
As to PCB's, I believe that they need to be marked appropriately  if the
creator wants any protection. For software, I believe that each copy
distributed must contain a notice, and each diskette must be marked.

IF THESE STEPS ARE NOT CARRIED OUT, NO COPYRIGHT PROTECTION MAY BE CLAIMED!!!!

2. You can publish and distribute material (any of the above) with the
markings, and be protected, so long as you take appropriate steps to
perfect (complete) the copyright within a fixed length of time. This step
involves submitting a record copy of the material to DC, which gets
archived.

3. I have never looked--does GM (for instance) put the c in a circle symbol
on their ecu PCB's??? (BRUCE???)
(Together with the other required info.) I have seen this stuff on plenty
of PCB's, but dunno as to ecu's. IF THE COPYRIGHT SYMBOL AND OTHER REQUIRED
INFO IS NOT ON THE PCB, THE BOARD DESIGN IS PUBLIC DOMAIN. PERIOD!!! YOU
WOULD BE FREE TO COPY IT AT WILL!!!!

4. I know of no copyright info that you get (not to mention any agreement)
in re the software in the ecu that you get or execute when you buy the car
(see earlier post on this), so the software in mfgr ecu's has about gotta
be public domain stuff!!

HERE IS WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING:

Do any of the software oriented folks out there know what material you have
to submit to complete a copyright on software???? Or does anybody even
bother cuz of the development cycle being so short????

Is source code, etc. required as a part of the submission??

If I am wrong about the software in the mfgr ecu's being devoid of any
copyright protection, then all the documentation, as required to complete
the copyright, just as for any other kind of software should be public
record wherever it is that such archives are kept. (Prolly available on the
web!)

If the mfgrs really have copyrighted their ecu software, the copyright
archives might well be a treasure trove of info for hacking them, depending
on how much documentation must be submitted to get the copyright!!!!!!!

If, as I suspect very strongly, the mfgrs have not copyrighted their ecu
software, we,  and all the chip-makers too, are, in fact, free to do any
damn thing we want to with it, including pass out exact copies of it,
either for free or for profit!!

Either way, no bloody wonder the mfgrs are tight with the details of their
software!!

Regards, Greg




From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Thu Jan 28 02:29:48 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:29:48 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32961.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Not quite right......

The crush sleeve is used to set the front and rear pinion bearing pre-load, 
the front pinion bearing takes the thrust from the driveshaft. If the 
pinion nut comes loose then the pinion will move rearward and instantly 
chew the ring gear.

/Marc

----------
From: 	Gary Derian[SMTP:gderian at cybergate.net]
Sent: 	January 27, 1999 1:31 PM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths

The way I know, the crush sleeve is only used to hold the inner bearing
races against the pinion gear to keep the races from rotating relative to
the pinion.  It doesn't take any gear loads.  You could remove the crush
sleeve and loctite the inner races to the pinion.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>
>Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the 
companion
>flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve 
beyond
>where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too
>long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them!
>
>The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production
>situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance
>application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive
>pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!!
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>




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From spoonie at deltanet.com  Thu Jan 28 02:32:49 1999
From: spoonie at deltanet.com (Ward Spoonemore)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:32:49 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32962.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This is because the 8192 sample time is maxed at about 8 frames/sec. This is
an interrogate respond handshake system and it has real time interrupts to
prevent the engine from dying from over eager scanning.
Ward

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Roger
Heflin
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 5:35 PM
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'
Subject: RE: <all> home dyno kit??




On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Mike Pitts wrote:

>
> Seems like if you had a fast (8192 baud) home brew scan tool,
> you could measure RPM and MPH and make the same calculations,
> probably a bit more precisely since you would have MPH as an
> input rather than a calculation.
>
> Anyone know the math for this off-hand?  Might as well add it
> to my cutom scan software (for 16198625 PCM's only, sorry).
>
> Cool idea though.  Very creative with the inductive coil into
> the microphone jack.
>

I tried using the diacom data to get this sort of info.  I have 7
samples per second 8192 baud.  It does not work.  The rpm and mph are
too coarse.  1mph and 25 rpm don't give enough resolution to be able
hp over a short range.  To get reasonably smooth data I was having to
average over 7-10 samples (almost a second, and a pretty wide rpm
range). At 7 samples per second, the mph takes several samples to
change, so you really cannot get accurate acceleration numbers, and
this was the reason for having to average over a wide range.

If you adjusted the computer and had some way to get more accurate mph
numbers then it would probably be workable.  But with 1 mph resolution
it won't work very well.

You might be able to setup an interpolation type equation for the mph
and get alot better guess.   I have a program (quick basic) to read a
diacom dbf file and do this sort of processing.  I will revisit doing
this, since I already have some code that may work with interpolation.

				Roger



From jweir at worldnet.att.net  Thu Jan 28 02:49:16 1999
From: jweir at worldnet.att.net (Jason Weir)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:49:16 -0500
Subject: BP constant formula?
Message-ID: <mailman.32963.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Does anyone know of a formula to figure out what the base pulse width
constant should be given specific engine and injector sizing?  And why
would the BPW constant be higher in the lower map ranges than the higher
map ranges??    Jason


From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 28 03:30:06 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:30:06 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32964.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>In answer to the request for a source and something to read for yourself,
>concerning the meaning of the US Constitution.  Find yourself a copy of
>the Citizens' Handbook.
>
>It's a small (3.5" X 7") 45 page booklet that has the Declaration of
>Independence, Bill of Rights, the Constitution and a couple of other
>important documents.
>
>My copy was printed by Freedom Partner's in Washington DC, 202 833-2234.
>Also, most conservative book & tape stores will carry these booklets, and
>many organization give them away for the asking.  Even if you have to pay
>a  couple of bucks, it's worth it.

-------------------------

IIRC, that also the one that quote the supreme court cases on jury
nullification--

Greg




From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 28 03:31:58 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:31:58 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32965.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Depends on what eh, means
>Bruce        Doc's thinking about going to law school.......

Nahh--send Sleepy and Grumpy
>
>
>>They claim the software doesn't estimate power, it measures it.  But
>>further down the page they tell you it's ok to estimate the variables
>>used in the horsepower calculations.  Ahh, well.  Kinda like using a
>>crush sleeve, eh?

Geez, Shannen--you catch on quick!!!

>>Shannen




From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 28 03:37:09 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:37:09 -0500
Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32966.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:
>
>> of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
>> are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
>> sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
>> buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
>> the cheapest way to get some quality gears.
>>
>Cant think of any AT combinations that would do this. Try an industrial
>supply house for something like this. Browning is a brand name that comes
>to mind,  but there are many others.

Try an Allison rebuilder--I think there are some planetary set in some of
them that might get close, plus a lot of their planetary sets are straight
cut rather than helical.

Greg




From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Thu Jan 28 03:48:40 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:48:40 -0500
Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32967.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Jim Davies wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:
> 
> > of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
> > are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
> > sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
> > buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
> > the cheapest way to get some quality gears.
> >
> Cant think of any AT combinations that would do this. Try an industrial
> supply house for something like this. Browning is a brand name that comes
> to mind,  but there are many others.
Browning EPT does not have them either - been there, done that. Trust
me, you will need a custom gear. If you manage to find one it will not
be a ground and hardened gear. I'm thinking hay loader or dump rake -
cast gears - that's the only sourse I have found, and anything over
about 300 RPM is impossible with them.


From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 28 04:05:45 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:05:45 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32968.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Not quite right......
>
>The crush sleeve is used to set the front and rear pinion bearing pre-load,
>the front pinion bearing takes the thrust from the driveshaft. If the
>pinion nut comes loose then the pinion will move rearward and instantly
>chew the ring gear.
>
>/Marc

The front bearing also takes the gear thrust when the gears are loaded on
the coast side of their teeth. (like with regular cut gears, driving
forward in the front end of a 4x4)

One main point is, that with a crush sleeve, tightness of the nut is
limited, so it is way more likely to come loose---

Greg
>----------
>From: 	Gary Derian[SMTP:gderian at cybergate.net]
>Sent: 	January 27, 1999 1:31 PM
>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
>
>The way I know, the crush sleeve is only used to hold the inner bearing
>races against the pinion gear to keep the races from rotating relative to
>the pinion.  It doesn't take any gear loads.  You could remove the crush
>sleeve and loctite the inner races to the pinion.
>
>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>
>>
>>Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the
>companion
>>flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve
>beyond
>>where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too
>>long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them!
>>
>>The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production
>>situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance
>>application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive
>>pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!!
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
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>`
>end




From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Thu Jan 28 04:09:55 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:09:55 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32969.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well... the engine isn't broken in yet.  The rings aren't seated.

Ray


On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:13:03 -0800 espace <talltom at effectnet.com> writes:
>Well I for one am really impressed that this group has so many that 
>know something of
>nullification, and so many that are interested. Far from a normal 
>group of bozos here!:-)
>
>
>As for efi content, anybody here got any evidence of what effect 
>washing down the cylinder
>walls with fuel has on compression??? I've a rig of questionable 
>background(85300zx turbo)
>that is varying from 30#-85# and there's 18 hours labor in r&r'ing the 
>heads. I'd really
>hate to invest this much in the thing(gaskets are probably 300$) just 
>to find that fuel
>or condensate had caused such. It has only 100k miles on it.
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From JRECPA at aol.com  Thu Jan 28 04:39:29 1999
From: JRECPA at aol.com (JRECPA at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:39:29 -0500
Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32970.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/27/99 11:12:01 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com writes:

<< This is not exactly EFI related - but my local sources have
 been unable to help me.
 
 I am trying to build an experimental transmission.  It uses
 an internal gear (teeth on the inside) and a spur gear (teeth
 on the outside) that rotates inside the first gear.  My only
 requirement is that the internal gear needs to have exactly
 twice the teeth of the spur gear (and mesh, of course).
 
 I went some automatic transmission shops, but all the sets
 of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
 are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
 sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
 buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
 the cheapest way to get some quality gears.
 
 Any ideas?
 
 TIA
 
 Dan L
 
  >>
Are you trying to use the spur gear as a planetary set up or just a
single gear to gear ratio?

If you are trying for a planetary set up it won't work because there would
be no room for a sun gear. That is why they use 2 planetary gear sets
to get the ratios under 3 to 1.

James


From WATCHmeDRV at aol.com  Thu Jan 28 04:48:14 1999
From: WATCHmeDRV at aol.com (WATCHmeDRV at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:48:14 -0500
Subject: wanted: CORVETTE 4+3 Transmisson
Message-ID: <mailman.32971.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I need a 4+3 trans for a corvette the manual side is what I need not the
overdrive side. Email me or call me at 706-547-0052 leave a number and message
if no answer please.


From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 28 05:05:11 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:05:11 -0500
Subject: '165 donor vehicle needed
Message-ID: <mailman.32972.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Those ECM's are used in s+t trucks and blazers, and astrovans.  Hay,
ask your yard if they have the Hollander interchange # for that.

Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote:
> 
> hi.
> after some research I've figured out that I should play with a 1227165. the
> ludis page gives me some ideas as to the type of gm vehicle that had a 4 cyl
> tbi application.
> 
> 1987 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "E"
> 1988 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "E"
> 1989 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "E"
> 1990 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "E"
> 1991 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "E"
> 1991-93 truck 2.5 L4 TBI "A"
> 
> my app is for a 2.0 liter engine, and I need to run a tbi system, however
> the junkyards I've talked to on-line about buying the wiring harness, ECU,
> sensors, etc tell me that they can't find a gm truck that has one, (they
> can't dig up the truck model). was this for a S-10 ? I need to tell them the
> precise info, model, year , engine they aren't generally too creative with
> 'find me a '165' .
> 
> can someone give me a model example ? this didn't use a crank sensor or
> anything too fancy like that did it ?
> 
> thanks, Ted.



From wsherwin at idirect.com  Thu Jan 28 05:20:14 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:20:14 -0500
Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32973.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Why not sketch up exactly what you need, and pay a machine shop to
manufacture and heat treat them from appropriate material?  Any  good shop
should be able to, for some$$.

Walt.



-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence L.Snyder <clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear


>Jim Davies wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:
>>
>> > of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
>> > are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
>> > sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
>> > buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
>> > the cheapest way to get some quality gears.
>> >
>> Cant think of any AT combinations that would do this. Try an industrial
>> supply house for something like this. Browning is a brand name that comes
>> to mind,  but there are many others.
>Browning EPT does not have them either - been there, done that. Trust
>me, you will need a custom gear. If you manage to find one it will not
>be a ground and hardened gear. I'm thinking hay loader or dump rake -
>cast gears - that's the only sourse I have found, and anything over
>about 300 RPM is impossible with them.



From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 28 05:20:55 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:20:55 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32974.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well I just went all over a PCB, and find no C with circle anywhere
used a 3-4x lens, and don't see it.
Bruce

>3. I have never looked--does GM (for instance) put the c in a circle symbol
>on their ecu PCB's??? (BRUCE???)
>(Together with the other required info.) I have seen this stuff on plenty
>of PCB's, but dunno as to ecu's. IF THE COPYRIGHT SYMBOL AND OTHER REQUIRED
>INFO IS NOT ON THE PCB, THE BOARD DESIGN IS PUBLIC DOMAIN. PERIOD!!! YOU
>WOULD BE FREE TO COPY IT AT WILL!!!!
>Regards, Greg




From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 28 05:21:21 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:21:21 -0500
Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32975.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Clarence L.Snyder wrote:
> 
> Jim Davies wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:
> >
> > > of internal and planetary gears won't work because the planets
> > > are too small.  I was hoping internal and planets from different
> > > sets might work,  but haven't found a match.  I figured that
> > > buying some used automatic transmission gears would be
> > > the cheapest way to get some quality gears.
> > >
> > Cant think of any AT combinations that would do this. Try an industrial
> > supply house for something like this. Browning is a brand name that comes
> > to mind,  but there are many others.
> Browning EPT does not have them either - been there, done that. Trust
> me, you will need a custom gear. If you manage to find one it will not
> be a ground and hardened gear. I'm thinking hay loader or dump rake -
> cast gears - that's the only sourse I have found, and anything over
> about 300 RPM is impossible with them.

Did you check into any of the custom planetary sets made for
aftermarket trans companies like A1?
Shannen



From FHPREMACH at aol.com  Thu Jan 28 06:12:06 1999
From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:12:06 -0500
Subject: Non list-chasing ghosts.
Message-ID: <mailman.32976.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/27/99 11:41:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, bearbvd at sni.net
writes:

<< >(The Javelin in question was the same one that had a solid rear axle with
 >>about 1-1/2 degrees of negative camber on each rear wheel. This was done by
 >>means of (I think) a curved spline on the outer end of a full floating axle
 >>shaft. Pretty cute stuff. No wonder the class got sorta expensive to
 >>run!!!) :-)
 >>
 >>Regards, Greg >>

There was an article a few years ago about using a set of splines cut on a
curve and mated to a floating hub set at an angle. Could allow for both toe
and camber adjustments. It was in one of the circle track magazines. Sounded
like it could have possibilities with a Mumford link for roll control.
Fred


From mpitts at emi.net  Thu Jan 28 06:15:49 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:15:49 -0500
Subject: Bosch/Buick crossbreed
Message-ID: <mailman.32977.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


That sounds like a cool project.   But why not just use the EFI 
system off a FWD SFI Buick?  They are plentiful and cheap 
in the boneyards. 

Let us know when you fire it up!

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Williams <dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us>
Subject: Bosch/Buick crossbreed


I've made some progress on my EFI transplant.  I have a '79 Buick 3.8
V6 going into my '84 Mazda pickup.  The engine was, of course,
carbureted in its original form.  I acquired an '82 Toyota Celica Supra
EFI setup for free...snip




From mpitts at emi.net  Thu Jan 28 06:22:43 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:22:43 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32978.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>This is because the 8192 sample time is maxed at about 8 frames/sec. 

Not if you know how to send the command to directly read ram 
locations a single byte at a time, rather than asking for the entire 
diagnostic stream. 8-)

If I can get 64 bytes out 8 times per second, I should be able to 
get between 128 and 256 samples per second interrogating just 
two bytes (RPM and MPH).  So sample rate is not a problem. 

The earlier post about poor resolution made a good point (25 RPM 
and 1.0 MPH), you can however query the raw time between cam 
sensor pulses and the raw VSS count and do your own math to get 
as precise as you wish.  Or, at least I can do it with my PCM.

-Mike




From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Thu Jan 28 06:43:29 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:43:29 -0500
Subject: BLCC5074 error codes
Message-ID: <mailman.32979.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>Was poking around in the BLCC5074 code recently uploaded (sorry...forgot
the
>poster's name) and came across some malfunction codes I'm not familiar
with.
>Does the poster (or anyone familiar with this Holden 5L V8 (non-Chevy) BLCC
>combination) know the related systems for the following codes:
>
>17
>19
>26  (QDM fault maybe?)
>27
>36  (vacuum leak maybe?)
>46  (VATS fail?)
>56
>57
>66
>72
>
>There are a bunch of other codes in the PROM but they're not enabled in the
>masks. The ones above are enabled but I'm not positive what they do.


Well seeing as though I uploaded them I should try to help you out ;-)
I have a GM book for one of these cars around, I'll go hunting and see what
I can find.

BTW - Where were the Malf codes located?.

Regards

Ross Myers



From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Thu Jan 28 06:43:31 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:43:31 -0500
Subject: Last Holden Bin for a while?.
Message-ID: <mailman.32980.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ok,

This one is from a 94/95 V8 Manual, but the Engine is the upgraded HSV
185Kw. Also this ECM is an 082.

Find it on the FTP site-.

BMZL1790.BIN

Bye

Ross



From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Thu Jan 28 06:52:56 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:52:56 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32981.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

(snip)
>Do any of the software oriented folks out there know what material you have
>to submit to complete a copyright on software???? Or does anybody even
>bother cuz of the development cycle being so short????
>

  When writing windows programs, in the 'Help' menu box, the copyright and 'c' in a circle is present with date and author.  I have not really dug into this in depth but I believe that this procedure protects the software.  Hackers can remove this information and I have read of several software programmers who, to protect their work, have imbedded certain keystrokes, in the program, that when entered while the program was running, would display information about the copyright and author.  This technique won one independent programmer a bundle in court when he proved that he wrote the program, stolen and marketed by another company, by typing keystrokes which initiated a screen display showing his copyright information.

Clarence


From ludis at cruzers.com  Thu Jan 28 07:35:07 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:35:07 -0500
Subject: Identify this chip
Message-ID: <mailman.32982.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'm trying to identify a little jelly bean chip in an ECM.  The pin
connections don't match anything in any data book I have.  I think it is
some sort of one-shot timer.  It is in a tiny 14 pin surface mount
package.  The GM part number is 48504 (or probably 16048504).  Here are
the pin connections:

 14       Power (VCC)
  7       Ground (GND)
  1       No connect - must be NC or an output
 11       No connect - must be NC or an output
  8 & 9   Connected together, these are driven by an active high global
          enable, thus they must be enable/set/reset inputs
 12 & 13  Connected together, these are probably driven by the time
          processor chip, they are probably timer trigger inputs
  3       Output which controls a quad driver stage which controls a
          fan relay, this is probably a "Q" output
  2 & 4   Connected together and enabling a second quad driver channel,
          one is probably a "~Q" output, the other may be a retrigger
          input
  5 & 6   Connected together, a 3.3 uF capacitor connects between these
          pins and ground
  10      Connected to 5 & 6 via a 301K 1% resistor

It would seem like this is a 74121 or similar, but the pinout is wrong. 
Perhaps this is one of the chips whose pinout changed when it went to a
surface mount package.

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/



From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Thu Jan 28 08:06:27 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:06:27 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32983.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Greg Hermann wrote:

> >Not quite right......
> >
> >The crush sleeve is used to set the front and rear pinion bearing pre-load,
> >the front pinion bearing takes the thrust from the driveshaft. If the
> >pinion nut comes loose then the pinion will move rearward and instantly
> >chew the ring gear.

    In less than 500 miles, I can verify. Damnit.

> The front bearing also takes the gear thrust when the gears are loaded on
> the coast side of their teeth. (like with regular cut gears, driving
> forward in the front end of a 4x4)
>
> One main point is, that with a crush sleeve, tightness of the nut is
> limited, so it is way more likely to come loose---

    I didn't mention it before, but you could actually hear the pinion eating
the carrier away.  It would only happen at 25+ when coasting.  I came up with
some interesting driving styles to minimize the grinding :-|

James Ballenger



From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Thu Jan 28 08:10:30 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:10:30 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32984.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Greg Hermann wrote:

> Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the companion
> flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve beyond
> where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too
> long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them!

It would make a noise on the 1-2 shift, so I saw the bolts missing and thought the
driveshaft was jacknifing.  It still made the noise afterwards, in retrospect that
was probably the rearend massive death cry.  Damn.

> The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production
> situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance
> application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive
> pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!!

    Now I want to rebuild the sucker.  I will probably ask about this again when I
actually take the thing completely apart and can get and idea as to what some of the
doo-hickeys in there are.

    James Ballenger



From mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca  Thu Jan 28 08:10:53 1999
From: mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Matt Beaubien)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:10:53 -0500
Subject: More DFI q's...
Message-ID: <mailman.32985.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi all,

Just got back from some more dyno testing of the R-trim 302 Ford I'm helping
with.  It's a good thing I'm helping out, as who knows what the guys at the
shop would end up with.  I stepped out for a while and they were trying to
take timing out of it by adjusting the NO2 retard.  The engine isn't running
NO2 and the DFI isn't setup to do so...

Anyway, I've decided that I like the Felpro software _much_ better than
Calmap.  I seriously think that you could get away with not dynoing the
engine with the FP system, and probably end up with better maps (assuming
the FP has the UEGO.)  I haven't actually run an engine on the FP unit but I
can see how the s/w is much superior.  Accel has a lot of work to do one
Calmap to bring it even close to FP.

Anyway, we haven't done any heavy testing but managed to get 600 HP at 6000
RPM with ~21 psi boost. This is with no water running through the
intercooler (Vortec pump died) and very minimal tuning.  The owner was
expecting ~18 psi max so I don't know how much we'll see at 7000 RPM.  Water
in the intercooler will bring the boost down but probably not a whole lot. 
I personally wouldn't be pushin the engine so hard without proper
intercooling, but hey, it's not my motor ;-). 

One minor problem we're having right now is when the throttle is opened and
the load is applied, the revs climb, the motor hiccups, recovers, and then
climbs again.  It happens long enough after the throttle is open that I
don't think it's a TPS enrichment problem.  Just thinking about it now, I
think it might be the delta MAP enrichment as it could be triggered with the
rapidly rising boost.  The dyno operator has tuned a similar engine (don't
know if I want to see his maps...) and said that it hiccuped at what seemed
to be the transition to positive MAP and could not be tuned out.  I doubt
that statement and will do what I can to prove him wrong ;-).
 
I think if we can start a section on the homepage with maps (fuel and
timing) from various engines, factory tuned or not, it would be of great
help to those building/programming their own systems. 

Any comments or suggestions?  Thanks in advance.


Matt Beaubien
mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
3 x 510
1 x 300ZXT



From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Thu Jan 28 08:21:28 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:21:28 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch (Caddy 8-6-4)
Message-ID: <mailman.32986.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Shannen Durphey wrote:

> There was probably more charity in the accepting than the giving!
> Maybe they just didn't know what they were getting.

    Towards the end of it's life, some guy drove by and say the thing.  He stopped and
offered my mom $800 on the spot!  I remember now, we gave it to a tow truck driver who
brought in a parts car '79 bird for me.  He wanted to fix the thing up.  he he, good
luck to him.

James Ballenger



From Fisystems at aol.com  Thu Jan 28 08:24:08 1999
From: Fisystems at aol.com (Fisystems at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:24:08 -0500
Subject: Looking for injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32987.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Any Idea on good sources for injectors?
Thanxs
Maybe the injector guru...Any have his number?



From mharding at qonline.com.au  Thu Jan 28 08:45:54 1999
From: mharding at qonline.com.au (Matthew Harding)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:45:54 -0500
Subject: lookup resolution
Message-ID: <mailman.32988.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Firstly thanks for your input... one more quicky...

>If you can, I would say go to twice as many rpm points (32) and use a
>logarithmic scale to lay them out (equal percentage increase from each rpm
>level to the next) for best streetability.

so, are we talking closer together at low or high rpm ?

ie steps such as (very exagerated)

0, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000 rpm

or

0, 500, 1000, 2000, 3000, 3500, 4000, 4250, 4500, 4750, 5000, 5125, 5250

there's nothin logarithmic about that one, but i guess you get the idea ?



From talltom at effectnet.com  Thu Jan 28 09:29:02 1999
From: talltom at effectnet.com (espace)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:29:02 -0500
Subject: Switch pitch, or cubic Buicks 
Message-ID: <mailman.32989.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>

> From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:23:43 -0700
> Subject: RE: Switch Pitch
>
> >On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> >
> >> By the way, toward the end of the DynaFlow era, how many vane positions
> >> could the converter be set to? Three at least. Or was it some kind of
> >> infinitely variable position?
>

They were infinitely variable, I know, I took one apart(READ UNBOLTED IT) and I
think the stator is still in the basement.

   For the guys with wives nagging about all the auto parts you're hoarding, I took that
apart in 1967, and there's pieces still in the basement. So you can probably say you're better
than
some.:-)

>

> From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:25:57 -0500
> Subject: Re: Switch Pitch
>
> I heard once that the dynaflow lacked torque multiplication, and was
> very high revving and noisy.

Well I think they have torque multiplication, and they don't make near as much noise as
a bunch of Fords and Chevys with severe axle hop pounding their slicks up and down
and throwing ring gear pieces for blocks. It doesn't really matter much though, not a
one of them ever caught up with me to compare sound. Fas as the "high reving" goes,
hehehe, let's just say that a LOT of people have learned the hard way that 3500rpm
stall speed on a stock 59 LeSabre is tough to beat. In fact, I used to have my engine
OFF when everybody else was staging at the light, I cam out of the parking spot so hard
that I had to get a length on them in less than 50' and get their lane or wreck, well it
never failed. Burned up 7 trannies, but NEVER got beat off the line.
Anyhow, like I say, I think there's some torque multiplication there. Bye the way,
Corky Bell's dad won a whole display case full of trophies with a similar setup.
He sells switch pitch kits to this day far as I know.(I built one 15 years ago.)





From talltom at effectnet.com  Thu Jan 28 09:58:02 1999
From: talltom at effectnet.com (espace)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:58:02 -0500
Subject: Cubic Buicks
Message-ID: <mailman.32990.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Fully Informed Jury Association homepage -
http://nowscape.com/fija/fija_us.htm
Phone# 1-800-TEL-JURY



From talltom at effectnet.com  Thu Jan 28 10:10:02 1999
From: talltom at effectnet.com (espace)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 05:10:02 -0500
Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #66
Message-ID: <mailman.32991.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:51:00 -0700
>Subject: Re: Cubic Dollars

>Expelled, if you are lucky.
>
>A lady in Colorado was recently prosecuted because she failed to reveal
>her intentions to judge the law as well as the case.

Laura Kriho

 She made the mistake
>of discussing this opening in jury deliberations.  Another juror informed
>the judge, and since the judge was interested in writing a book about the
>Fully Informed Jury movement, the judge charged her with some sort of
>misconduct, and I believe she was convicted.

HI--

Yes, this did happen--I live in Steamboat Springs, CO, and it was in the
news here at the time. However, you did not read the fine print! What they
went after her for was for not informing the court of a possible
conflict--not for exercising her rights as a juror.

Me- Ah, I followed that one pretty close, and the issue as it was presented amongst
us was that not that there was a conflict, or she had had past involvement with drugs,
but her failure to volunteer that she believes that the war on some drugs is a farse,
despite the fact that she was never asked. Some of us feel that if one can be tried
for not answering questions that aren't asked as jurrors, we won't be jurrors, period.

It seems that she was
on the jury for a drug case, and she had pled nolo to a very minor drug
charge about 20 years previously. The prosecutor tried to claim that she
had deliberately concealed the conflict, and had pre-judged the case, but
perjured herself by claiming that she had no conflict in judging the case.
SHE WAS NOT PROSECUTED FOR KNOWING OR EXERCISING HER RIGHTS AS A JUROR (no
matter how much the media and the pols, judges, & lawyers wanted everybody
to believe that that was the case!) Whether she got convicted, did a plea
bargain, or got acquitted, I do not recall.

She got convicted of not volunteering information she wasn't asked, and it neted her
a few weekends community service.

The BS that the #@$% holes go
through to avoid having you know your rights as a juror would make slick
proud!!

Which makes me realize--mebbe I should remind our two Senators from CO of
just how trivial and obscure a perjury offense we in Colorado will
prosecute someone for. Perhaps they should weigh the above referenced case
during their deliberations on slick's fate!!!

me- Where's a good Islamic fundamentalist when ya need one?? He could have
gotten two for one the other day, Clinton and Paul.






From talltom at effectnet.com  Thu Jan 28 10:12:13 1999
From: talltom at effectnet.com (espace)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 05:12:13 -0500
Subject: Thermodynamics anybody???
Message-ID: <mailman.32992.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


My books are long gone, along with my brain,(pass the cone shaped hat) and I'm curious
if anybody here has done much work with intercooler design. I've got a 3 liter engine
that I'm considering  building an intercooler system fer, and if anybody's got any
numbers about intercooler requirements I'd like to take a look. The way I see it,
I could use a heater core or a/c evaporator for the hot side, and some sort of radiator
on the cool side. I'm looking fer heat load caused by say 30psi intake pressure at 7k
rpm, and corrolating that to optimal collector and diffuser sizes.
  I've got a Audi radiator with a elec fan on it that would work for a diffuser, but seems
like overkill and is heavy, empty. They alos use an auxiliary radiator that's about 50%
bigger in area than a heater core(and a lot thinner) that would be ideal if it's enough
to do it.

  So allright guys, here's your chance to show off... prove me dumb...




From Mguenther at ASCO.COM  Thu Jan 28 12:36:58 1999
From: Mguenther at ASCO.COM (Guenther,Max)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:36:58 -0500
Subject: Switch pitch, or cubic Buicks 
Message-ID: <mailman.32993.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

As far as the Dynaflow not being to fast, check the quarter mile times
on a 

63 and 64 Riviera.  Rather close.  Only real difference was the 63 was
dynaflow and the 64 was Super Turbine 400(dont ya just love the name?),
>not switch pitch though I think that was first in 65.  


From DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jan 28 13:01:16 1999
From: DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com (Dan Llewellyn2)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:01:16 -0500
Subject: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.32994.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>

I just need the single gear to gear ratio - it won't be a planetarysetup.  I
have already tried Browning, Boston, and a few others,
but their highest capacity stock gears are 5/16" face, straight cut,
and only good for a few horsepower.  I got a few quotes on
custom gears, but each quote was over $1,000 per gear (!).

I thought that if I could find some stock auto/truck gears that had the 2:1
ratio and meshed,  I could go to a junk yard or transmission shop
and pick some up inexpensively.  I have a GM350 internal gear with
66 teeth that only cost $10 - just don't have the matching spur gear.
Of course I am open to any other set that would work too.

Dan L

> Are you trying to use the spur gear as a planetary set up or just a
> single gear to gear ratio?
>
> If you are trying for a planetary set up it won't work because there would
> be no room for a sun gear. That is why they use 2 planetary gear sets
> to get the ratios under 3 to 1.
>
> James





From gderian at cybergate.net  Thu Jan 28 13:11:04 1999
From: gderian at cybergate.net (Gary Derian)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:11:04 -0500
Subject: DFI, Batch Fire, and other myths
Message-ID: <mailman.32995.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I accept that a weak crush sleeve limits the pinion flange torque which may
allow it to loosen, a good point that is, too, but gear loads are not
transmitted through the crush sleeve.

Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>

>>Not quite right......
>>
>>The crush sleeve is used to set the front and rear pinion bearing
pre-load,
>>the front pinion bearing takes the thrust from the driveshaft. If the
>>pinion nut comes loose then the pinion will move rearward and instantly
>>chew the ring gear.
>>
>>/Marc
>
>The front bearing also takes the gear thrust when the gears are loaded on
>the coast side of their teeth. (like with regular cut gears, driving
>forward in the front end of a 4x4)
>
>One main point is, that with a crush sleeve, tightness of the nut is
>limited, so it is way more likely to come loose---
>
>Greg
>>
>>The way I know, the crush sleeve is only used to hold the inner bearing
>>races against the pinion gear to keep the races from rotating relative to
>>the pinion.  It doesn't take any gear loads.  You could remove the crush
>>sleeve and loctite the inner races to the pinion.
>>
>>Gary Derian <gderian at cybergate.net>
>>
>>>
>>>Betcha it was a crush sleeve. The too long driveshaft pounded the
>>companion
>>>flange on the pinion into the sleeve hard enough to smush the sleeve
>>beyond
>>>where it was supposed to be, and the rest was history. No doubt the too
>>>long shaft was what got the rear mount bolts too (before you fixed them!
>>>
>>>The crush sleeves are cheap for the mfgrs to use in a production
>>>situation--beyond that they are not worth a #@$% !!!! For any performance
>>>application, or even just for a quality rebuild, a conversion to positive
>>>pinion preload shims is HIGHLY recommended for ANY rear axle!!!
>>>
>>>Regards, Greg




From DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jan 28 13:11:19 1999
From: DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com (Dan Llewellyn2)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:11:19 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.32996.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This dyno kit assumes (among other things) you are on
level ground.  At least were I live, level stretches of road where
you can get up to speed are rare.  If they incorporated the data
from a G-field measuring device, like an Analog Digital ADXL05,
you could calculate horsepower even if the road was not level.
Combined with an ignition signal (ignoring timing changes), you
could get a pretty good idea of performance.

I have the G-Tech and although it mostly works, it also assumes
level ground, no suspension loading, etc.  I have found it almost
impossible to get repeatable runs - but I don't have access to
a drag strip either.

Dan L

Roger Heflin wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Mike Pitts wrote:
>
> >
> > Seems like if you had a fast (8192 baud) home brew scan tool,
> > you could measure RPM and MPH and make the same calculations,
> > probably a bit more precisely since you would have MPH as an
> > input rather than a calculation.
> >
> > Anyone know the math for this off-hand?  Might as well add it
> > to my cutom scan software (for 16198625 PCM's only, sorry).
> >
> > Cool idea though.  Very creative with the inductive coil into
> > the microphone jack.
> >
>
> I tried using the diacom data to get this sort of info.  I have 7
> samples per second 8192 baud.  It does not work.  The rpm and mph are
> too coarse.  1mph and 25 rpm don't give enough resolution to be able
> hp over a short range.  To get reasonably smooth data I was having to
> average over 7-10 samples (almost a second, and a pretty wide rpm
> range). At 7 samples per second, the mph takes several samples to
> change, so you really cannot get accurate acceleration numbers, and
> this was the reason for having to average over a wide range.
>
> If you adjusted the computer and had some way to get more accurate mph
> numbers then it would probably be workable.  But with 1 mph resolution
> it won't work very well.
>
> You might be able to setup an interpolation type equation for the mph
> and get alot better guess.   I have a program (quick basic) to read a
> diacom dbf file and do this sort of processing.  I will revisit doing
> this, since I already have some code that may work with interpolation.
>
>                                 Roger





From Tim.Van.Setten at CAS.honeywell.com  Thu Jan 28 14:01:28 1999
From: Tim.Van.Setten at CAS.honeywell.com (Van Setten, Tim (AZ75))
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:01:28 -0500
Subject: Looking for injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.32997.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Any Idea on good sources for injectors?
> Thanxs
> Maybe the injector guru...Any have his number?
> 
What kind? Type, brand, flow rate, O-ring, Hose-barb?????


From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 28 14:17:09 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:17:09 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.32998.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>(snip)
>>Do any of the software oriented folks out there know what material you have
>>to submit to complete a copyright on software???? Or does anybody even
>>bother cuz of the development cycle being so short????
>>
>
>  When writing windows programs, in the 'Help' menu box, the copyright and
>'c' in a circle is present with date and author.  I have not really dug
>into this in depth but I believe that this procedure protects the
>software.  Hackers can remove this information and I have read of several
>software programmers who, to protect their work, have imbedded certain
>keystrokes, in the program, that when entered while the program was
>running, would display information about the copyright and author.  This
>technique won one independent programmer a bundle in court when he proved
>that he wrote the program, stolen and marketed by another company, by
>typing keystrokes which initiated a screen display showing his copyright
>information.
>
>Clarence

NEAT!!--But I still think that after some period of time, you need to file
an official copy to COMPLETE the copyright process--Anybody know about this
part??

Greg




From sureseal at nr.infi.net  Thu Jan 28 14:20:37 1999
From: sureseal at nr.infi.net (Grant Swaim)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:20:37 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.32999.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

From:           	"Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
To:             	<diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Subject:        	Re: Honda ident. request
Date sent:      	Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:00:41 -0500
Send reply to:  	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu

> I don't like these answers, but it is all I got.
> 
> >
> >If I'm in a junkyard looking at a bunch of crushed Hondas, 
> >whats the easiest way to tell if one of them is the lean 
> >burn model?
> 
> Under hood emission sticker
> 
>   Is the O2 sensor easily locatable and readable?
> 
> Exhaust manifold right by radiator 
> 
> >Where is the ECM located in the car if I do find such a car? 
> 
> By passangers feet.
> 
> >Is the 'VX' part of the outer badging on the car?  Are they 
> >more plentiful in particular geographic areas (ie: California 
> >or other problematic air quality centers)?  Should I just 
> >look under the hood of all the Hondas to see if they have a 
> >5-wire O2?
> 
> Not all 5 wires are what ya want.
> Bruce
> >
> >Thanks,
> >-Mike

The LAF Sensor currently is used only on the lean burn Civic which 
were:

92-95 VX
96-98 HX

All LAF sensors are 7 wire.

I write Honda training material and you can check out a training 
module on the LAF sensor at

http://www.tech2tech.net/training/laf.htm


Happy Motoring,
Grant Swaim - Webmaster
www.tech2tech.net


From sureseal at nr.infi.net  Thu Jan 28 14:20:54 1999
From: sureseal at nr.infi.net (Grant Swaim)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:20:54 -0500
Subject: Looking for Honda ECM Information
Message-ID: <mailman.33000.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi EFI Gurus,

I am new to the list and hope to be able to contribute some. I have 
been in the Honda service industry for almost 20 years. I currently 
develop specialty Honda tools and write Honda training material.

I write a fair amount on the Honda PGMFI system. My training 
modules are written at a service tech level. I would like to include a 
little more advanced information to keep the service pros interested.

I am particularly looking for engine control module (ECM) data. This 
is the kind of stuff that Honda keeps under tight control. I know 
some of you guys that have modified Hondas have more knowledge 
of this than I do.

The specific information I am interested in is about the ECM 
processing such as, how often does the processor read the inputs. 
What was the difference in speed and power of the processor 
before and after OBD-II. That type of information. Any information 
would be greatly appreciated !

By the way, I see a lot of discussion about the Honda LAF sensor 
in the archives. By the way Honda calls is a Lean Air Fuel sensor, 
instead of a Linear Air Flow sensor. I have written a training article 
on the sensor and you can see it at:

http://www.tech2tech.net/training/laf.htm


Happy Motoring,
Grant Swaim - Webmaster
www.tech2tech.net


From sureseal at nr.infi.net  Thu Jan 28 14:20:56 1999
From: sureseal at nr.infi.net (Grant Swaim)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:20:56 -0500
Subject: Looking for injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.33001.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

From:           	Fisystems at aol.com
Date sent:      	Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:23:14 EST
To:             	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject:        	Looking for injectors
Send reply to:  	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu

> Any Idea on good sources for injectors?
> Thanxs
> Maybe the injector guru...Any have his number?
> 

He has a site:

www.lindertech.com


Happy Motoring,
Grant Swaim - Webmaster
www.tech2tech.net


From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 28 14:27:05 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:27:05 -0500
Subject: lookup resolution
Message-ID: <mailman.33002.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Firstly thanks for your input... one more quicky...
>
>>If you can, I would say go to twice as many rpm points (32) and use a
>>logarithmic scale to lay them out (equal percentage increase from each rpm
>>level to the next) for best streetability.
>
>so, are we talking closer together at low or high rpm ?
>
>ie steps such as (very exagerated)
>
>0, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000 rpm

THIS WAY--same multiplier, or percentage, increase on each step up!! (Your
example doubled the rpm each step, Or 100%)

Greg




From nacelp at bright.net  Thu Jan 28 14:30:49 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:30:49 -0500
Subject: Thermodynamics anybody???
Message-ID: <mailman.33003.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: espace <talltom at effectnet.com>
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 5:21 AM
Subject: Thermodynamics anybody???

Spearco in I think Studio City, CA used to have a bunch of info., about
intercoolers in their catalog.  Tony Dequick on the Buick GN Ttype list
manufacturers some, might try to trace him down.
Bruce


>
>My books are long gone, along with my brain,(pass the cone shaped hat) and
I'm curious
>if anybody here has done much work with intercooler design. I've got a 3
liter engine
>that I'm considering  building an intercooler system fer, and if anybody's
got any
>numbers about intercooler requirements I'd like to take a look. The way I
see it,
>I could use a heater core or a/c evaporator for the hot side, and some sort
of radiator
>on the cool side. I'm looking fer heat load caused by say 30psi intake
pressure at 7k
>rpm, and corrolating that to optimal collector and diffuser sizes.
>  I've got a Audi radiator with a elec fan on it that would work for a
diffuser, but seems
>like overkill and is heavy, empty. They alos use an auxiliary radiator
that's about 50%
>bigger in area than a heater core(and a lot thinner) that would be ideal if
it's enough
>to do it.
>
>  So allright guys, here's your chance to show off... prove me dumb...
>
>



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Thu Jan 28 14:36:38 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:36:38 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33004.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> >(snip)
> 
> NEAT!!--But I still think that after some period of time, you need to file
> an official copy to COMPLETE the copyright process--Anybody know about this
> part??
> 
> Greg

>From what I remember, here in Canada, copyright exists as soon as you
say it does. The cheapest way to prove and protect copyright is to mail
the ORIGINAL of the document, with copyright notice included, to
yourself by registered mail. DO NOT open it, and put it in your safe
deposit box. The content must NOT have been revealed publicly at any
time previous to this posting without the copyright notice, or the
copyright is unenforceable.
Trade marks and trade names are property and must be registered, as must
patents - but copyright is a "right"that belongs to you untill you
release it to the public as public domain.


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Thu Jan 28 14:44:10 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:44:10 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33005.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Mike Pitts wrote:

> >>This is because the 8192 sample time is maxed at about 8 frames/sec. 
> 
> Not if you know how to send the command to directly read ram 
> locations a single byte at a time, rather than asking for the entire 
> diagnostic stream. 8-)
> 
> If I can get 64 bytes out 8 times per second, I should be able to 
> get between 128 and 256 samples per second interrogating just 
> two bytes (RPM and MPH).  So sample rate is not a problem. 
> 
> The earlier post about poor resolution made a good point (25 RPM 
> and 1.0 MPH), you can however query the raw time between cam 
> sensor pulses and the raw VSS count and do your own math to get 
> as precise as you wish.  Or, at least I can do it with my PCM.
> 

I redid the program with interpolation.  THe results were better, but
there are still unexplained peaks (not TCC lock, or shifts).  I
believe the problem is that the acceleartions we are talking about are
1 mph/(1 or 2 or 3) frames, and some times it will be 1mph/2 and
sometimes it will be 1mph/3 (same sort of thing with 1 and 2) but 1/2
and 2/3 are the dV/dt components and vary too much because of the
limited dt.   If I am running an average accelearation rate of say 1.7
frames per mph, I get some where dV/Dt is 1 and some where it is 1/2
and this makes a big difference in hp numbers.

The program I have does attempt to take care of wind resistance via
a number for hp drag at 60.  It uses that equation of 

drag =   drag_at_60 *  ( velocity^2 / 60^2 ) which should give a
pretty good estimate.

Later this week I will try interpolating by fitting a equation to the
data in an attempt to get more accurate time data.   Also with the
reading of the mph and rpm at a higher rate, and interpolating the mph
data I think we could actually get good numbers.   2-3 times the
number of data points per second would probably give good enough data
(even with the 1mph resolution) to get good info.  The other choice
would be to read out the ABS computer as I understand it has very
accurate mph data.

				Roger



From Tim.Van.Setten at CAS.honeywell.com  Thu Jan 28 14:47:25 1999
From: Tim.Van.Setten at CAS.honeywell.com (Van Setten, Tim (AZ75))
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:47:25 -0500
Subject: Thermodynamics anybody???
Message-ID: <mailman.33006.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

	We've been playing around with intercoolers and I stole mine out of
a Saab, but my engine is smaller than yours.  We got some good equaitions
from Spearco.  Check them out, but they want way too much money.  I perfer
to build my own...Tim.  http://www.spearcointercoolers.com/


> My books are long gone, along with my brain,(pass the cone shaped hat) and
> I'm curious
> if anybody here has done much work with intercooler design. I've got a 3
> liter engine
> that I'm considering  building an intercooler system fer, and if anybody's
> got any
> numbers about intercooler requirements I'd like to take a look. The way I
> see it,
> I could use a heater core or a/c evaporator for the hot side, and some
> sort of radiator
> on the cool side. I'm looking fer heat load caused by say 30psi intake
> pressure at 7k
> rpm, and corrolating that to optimal collector and diffuser sizes.
>   I've got a Audi radiator with a elec fan on it that would work for a
> diffuser, but seems
> like overkill and is heavy, empty. They alos use an auxiliary radiator
> that's about 50%
> bigger in area than a heater core(and a lot thinner) that would be ideal
> if it's enough
> to do it.
> 
>   So allright guys, here's your chance to show off... prove me dumb...
> 
> 


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Thu Jan 28 14:52:16 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:52:16 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33007.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Greg Hermann wrote:

> Hi All--
> 
> Some more thoughts on ecm's and their code and copyrights:
> 
> 1. A copyright is something that must be actively obtained by the original
> creator of copyrightable material. One of the active steps which must be
> taken to protect one's copyright interests is to mark each copy of the
> material with the symbol (c in a circle) and date, and the creator's name.
> (This may be done only on the copyright page of a bound book, to be
> sufficient.) For loose leaf stuff, like engineering plans or
> specifications, it is far wiser to mark each sheet if you want protection.
> As to PCB's, I believe that they need to be marked appropriately  if the
> creator wants any protection. For software, I believe that each copy
> distributed must contain a notice, and each diskette must be marked.
> 
> IF THESE STEPS ARE NOT CARRIED OUT, NO COPYRIGHT PROTECTION MAY BE CLAIMED!!!!

You *do not* have to file anything.  The originator has copyright
protection without filing.   Under the new rules that I believe the
major governments agreed on you do not even have to have the copyright
symbol on the document, you only have to be able to prove you were the
originator of the info (sometimes difficult).

> 
> 2. You can publish and distribute material (any of the above) with the
> markings, and be protected, so long as you take appropriate steps to
> perfect (complete) the copyright within a fixed length of time. This step
> involves submitting a record copy of the material to DC, which gets
> archived.

No recorded copy is required.

> 
> 3. I have never looked--does GM (for instance) put the c in a circle symbol
> on their ecu PCB's??? (BRUCE???)
> (Together with the other required info.) I have seen this stuff on plenty
> of PCB's, but dunno as to ecu's. IF THE COPYRIGHT SYMBOL AND OTHER REQUIRED
> INFO IS NOT ON THE PCB, THE BOARD DESIGN IS PUBLIC DOMAIN. PERIOD!!! YOU
> WOULD BE FREE TO COPY IT AT WILL!!!!
> 

Nothing is public domain automatically, the originator has to declear
it public domain.

> 4. I know of no copyright info that you get (not to mention any agreement)
> in re the software in the ecu that you get or execute when you buy the car
> (see earlier post on this), so the software in mfgr ecu's has about gotta
> be public domain stuff!!
> 
> HERE IS WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING:
> 
> Do any of the software oriented folks out there know what material you have
> to submit to complete a copyright on software???? Or does anybody even
> bother cuz of the development cycle being so short????
> 
> Is source code, etc. required as a part of the submission??
> 

As I said there is no submission process.  They use a submission
process for books I believe, but just because it is not submitted does
not mean they cannot get you.  


> If I am wrong about the software in the mfgr ecu's being devoid of any
> copyright protection, then all the documentation, as required to complete
> the copyright, just as for any other kind of software should be public
> record wherever it is that such archives are kept. (Prolly available on the
> web!)
> 
> If the mfgrs really have copyrighted their ecu software, the copyright
> archives might well be a treasure trove of info for hacking them, depending
> on how much documentation must be submitted to get the copyright!!!!!!!
> 
> If, as I suspect very strongly, the mfgrs have not copyrighted their ecu
> software, we,  and all the chip-makers too, are, in fact, free to do any
> damn thing we want to with it, including pass out exact copies of it,
> either for free or for profit!!
> 
> Either way, no bloody wonder the mfgrs are tight with the details of their
> software!!
> 
> Regards, Greg
> 
> 
> 



From jdennis at ipass.net  Thu Jan 28 14:59:38 1999
From: jdennis at ipass.net (Jamie Dennis)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:59:38 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33008.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

There is a free alternative to Home Dyno, that is supposed
to be better (at least than the early versions of Home Dyno).
It's called RevTest. The catch? It's not available for the
PC right now (though they do ask for offers of help developing
it). It is available for the Amiga, and it looks like there is
a version for UNIX partially completed.

The web site is: http://www.students.tut.fi/~k124775/revpro.html

The page also has good information on the theory behind the program.\\

-Jamie Dennis


From ECMnut at aol.com  Thu Jan 28 15:04:07 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:04:07 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.33009.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks Grant,
If I find one of these cars, is there a possiblity that
it will have a different engine than the lean burn, or
is the engine implied by the specific model designation?
Thanks,
Mike V

>  The LAF Sensor currently is used only on the lean burn Civic which 
>  were:
>  
>  92-95 VX
>  96-98 HX


From trinity at golden.net  Thu Jan 28 17:29:40 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:29:40 -0500
Subject: BLCC5074 error codes
Message-ID: <mailman.33010.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>
>Well seeing as though I uploaded them I should try to help you out ;-)
>I have a GM book for one of these cars around, I'll go hunting and see what
>I can find.
>
>BTW - Where were the Malf codes located?.
>
>Regards
>
>Ross Myers
>

There are several copies of malf codes kept during run time but the really
important ones (the ones that get set or cleared as each test is run) go
from $32 to $3A inclusive. An example:

$32 80-code 13
    40-code 14
    20-code 15
    10-code 16
    08-code 17
    04-code 18
    02-code 19
    01-code 21

...etc...

The list of malfunction codes (i.e. where the program gets the digits to be
flashed out on the CEL) can be found at $5F21. 

The enable masks can be found at $8925 to $892D inclusive.


--
 Mike



From synchris at ricochet.net  Thu Jan 28 17:43:53 1999
From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:43:53 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33011.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 08:24 AM 1/28/99 -0500, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:

>level ground.  At least were I live, level stretches of road where
>you can get up to speed are rare.  If they incorporated the data
>from a G-field measuring device, like an Analog Digital ADXL05,
>you could calculate horsepower even if the road was not level.

One thing I was gonna mention is the Analog Devices ADXL202, a
second generation, 2 axis +/- 5g accelerometer. It's even easier
to use than the first one, and has either a PWM output (you set
the frequency) and/or a linear analog output, per channel. This
is so easy you can hook the PWM input up to an audio amplifier
and listen to the sound change with acceleration. (Freq is
constant but the timbre changes. Or a simple 555 circuit will
get you variable frequency.)  In the Analog Devices tradition
of annoying package options it's a surface mount, but it's
still better than the damn (TO-10?) round can thing the last
one was mounted in. For just playing around, Digikey sells an
adapter board (Surfboards, by Capital Advanced Technologies,
p/n 9210CA-ND) which you can solder the chip onto and has a row
of pins on the side. SIP-style, about $7. The acclerometers
are surprisingly cheap too, pretty sure they're $30 or less in
ones, samples available.

I've thought about trying to make a better G-Tech sort of thing
with these, but definite accurate HP measurement with suspension
loading plus nonflat ground is still beyond what you can do with
just one, I think. If my math was right anwyay. You can get close,
though, with a couple simplifying assumptions. Now if you had *2*
modules, mounted fore and aft... nah. An exercise for the reader.

   Chris C.



From mgr at mgrcorp.com  Thu Jan 28 17:47:39 1999
From: mgr at mgrcorp.com (Gwyn Reedy)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:47:39 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.33012.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

There were comments about the similarity between the DynaFlow and
Powerglide. I'm wondering if there weren't more similarities between DF and
TurboGlide? The latter was a no-shift transmission.

Thinking back about all these earlier transmissions: Was Detroit slow to see
the need for better performance or was the market all attuned to smoothness
(or so thought Detroit)?

Smoothness oriented:
Chrysler fluid drive
Dynaflow
PowerGlide (starting off in 1:1)
Ford-o-matic starting off in 2nd, kickdown to 1st
Hydramatic converting to an internal fluid coupling in 1956 to smooth out
the shifts.

Not smooth, but not good performance:
3 speed manual transmissions
When 4 speeds came, very high first gear ratios. Nice close ratios, but a
tall gear to start with. (Was that so the trans cold hold the torque?)

At least there were manual shift overdrives... (I put one from a Chevy
behind the B-W automatic in my hot-rod Rambler station wagon once - worked
fine.) (Don't give me any s**t about that project or I'll have to tell all
about it...)

These days the engines are much improved, but lots of the flexibility,
performance, and economy we get is due to transmission improvements, IMHO.

Gwyn Reedy
Brandon, Florida
mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com



From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Thu Jan 28 17:53:09 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:53:09 -0500
Subject: Bosch/Buick crossbreed
Message-ID: <mailman.33013.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> That sounds like a cool project.   But why not just use the EFI
-> system off a FWD SFI Buick?  They are plentiful and cheap
-> in the boneyards.

 At local prices, "cheap" would be on the order of $500, plus I'd have
to fabricate my own harness.  Once I figure in my time on adapting the
Bosch I'll be pushing that, but at least I won't be giving my money to
the swine at the junkyards.

 Around here, for example, *no* yard will sell a wiring harness.  Not
even just before they feed the car to the crusher.  Why?  Who the hell
knows, but none of them will budge.
                                                                                                                            


From sureseal at nr.infi.net  Thu Jan 28 17:53:10 1999
From: sureseal at nr.infi.net (Grant Swaim)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:53:10 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.33014.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

From:           	ECMnut at aol.com
Date sent:      	Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:03:14 EST
To:             	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject:        	Re: Honda ident. request
Send reply to:  	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu

> Thanks Grant,
> If I find one of these cars, is there a possiblity that
> it will have a different engine than the lean burn, or
> is the engine implied by the specific model designation?
> Thanks,
> Mike V
> 
> >  The LAF Sensor currently is used only on the lean burn Civic which
> >  were:
> >  
> >  92-95 VX
> >  96-98 HX
> 

You should be safe by going by the model designation. Also will 
have 7 wires.
Happy Motoring,
Grant Swaim - Webmaster
www.tech2tech.net


From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Thu Jan 28 18:23:40 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:23:40 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33015.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi,
  quoting from "How to sell your Software" by Bob Schenot.  
  "A copyright protects the 'expression of an idea, not the idea itself'.  The actual copyright law is 17 United States Code, sections 101 through 810."
  "You do not need to do anything in the United States (since 1989) to have a copyright--it is automatic.  On the other hand, it is definitely to your advantage to include a 'notice' in your work...."
  "If an individual claims a copyright, that claim is good for his or her lifetime plus fifty years...."
  He goes on to talk about registering the copyright and says: "You can take legal action for infringement only after the copyright has been registered".
  He then states: "I question whether it makes sense to register (as opposed to claim) a copyright for software.  My reasoning is that, because you cannot copyright an idea, having protection for the source code is not very useful."
  Therein lies the confusion, in my mind anyway.  'Claiming' as opposed to copyright.  Since software can solve the same problem many different ways, the 'idea' comes into play when the problem is solved in a particular way.  Someone else can solve the same problem a different way without infringing on your software.  The only thing that copyright protects is the pirating of the entire program; your 'expression of an idea'.
  It is also important to mail a copy of your software to somebody out of state.  You need proof that it was 'published'.

Clarence
  


At 07:05 AM 1/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>(snip)
>>>Do any of the software oriented folks out there know what material you have
>>>to submit to complete a copyright on software???? Or does anybody even
>>>bother cuz of the development cycle being so short????
>>>
>>
>>  When writing windows programs, in the 'Help' menu box, the copyright and
>>'c' in a circle is present with date and author.  I have not really dug
>>into this in depth but I believe that this procedure protects the
>>software.  Hackers can remove this information and I have read of several
>>software programmers who, to protect their work, have imbedded certain
>>keystrokes, in the program, that when entered while the program was
>>running, would display information about the copyright and author.  This
>>technique won one independent programmer a bundle in court when he proved
>>that he wrote the program, stolen and marketed by another company, by
>>typing keystrokes which initiated a screen display showing his copyright
>>information.
>>
>>Clarence
>
>NEAT!!--But I still think that after some period of time, you need to file
>an official copy to COMPLETE the copyright process--Anybody know about this
>part??
>
>Greg
>
>
>


From orin at wolfenet.com  Thu Jan 28 19:07:49 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:07:49 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33016.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> At 08:24 AM 1/28/99 -0500, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:

> >level ground.  At least were I live, level stretches of road where
> >you can get up to speed are rare.  If they incorporated the data
> >from a G-field measuring device, like an Analog Digital ADXL05,
> >you could calculate horsepower even if the road was not level.

Yes, but you still need the speed input since the accelerometer
cannot tell the difference between acceleration and gravity...
As far as the horsepower calculation is concerned, you would
use the acceleration from the accelerometer and the speed from
another sensor...  The calculation (being mass * velocity * acceleration)
doesn't care whether the acceleration is due to gravity (going
uphill) or increase in speed.

> One thing I was gonna mention is the Analog Devices ADXL202, a
> second generation, 2 axis +/- 5g accelerometer. It's even easier

I looked at it when it first came out and the specs didn't look
very good to me.  It's bad enough getting .01g resolution out
of an ADXL05 with any reasonable bandwith and the 202 looked worse to me.

Orin.


From Teller.John at orbital.com  Thu Jan 28 19:42:29 1999
From: Teller.John at orbital.com (Teller.John at orbital.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:42:29 -0500
Subject: Boneyard Harnesses (was Bosch/Buick crossbreed)
Message-ID: <mailman.33017.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Try going to a U-Pull-It sort of junk yard.  The ones any where near here
(D.C. suburbs) are all pretty well organized and insured and thus do not
allow cretins such as I onto their lots.  As you get further from
metropolitan areas, and are willing to do the wrenching yourself, you can
pull just about anything you want.

The problem with harnesses is that the goons (employed there or otherwise)
that usually pull stuff out of the wrecks tend to cut connectors off
instead of unplugging them.  You have to find a real popular car that the
junk yard has lots of, or get there when the wreck is fresh to get that
sort of stuff intact...  Furthermore, harnesses are usually tied in tightly
to the chassis and snake around too many things in order to be quickly
(read cheaply) removed from the carcass.  I doubt you would pay what it
would cost to have a yard goon to pull one...





Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To:      diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu                   
                                                              
 cc:      (bcc: John Teller/ORBVA)                            
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: Re: Bosch/Buick crossbreed                          
                                                              









<snip>

Around here, for example, *no* yard will sell a wiring harness.  Not
even just before they feed the car to the crusher.  Why?  Who the hell
knows, but none of them will budge.





From mpitts at netspeak.com  Thu Jan 28 20:06:08 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:06:08 -0500
Subject: Bosch/Buick crossbreed
Message-ID: <mailman.33018.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


That's a real bummer.  Otherwise it would be sooo easy. 
Literally plug-n-play.  And easily tuneable with a '7148 
ECM since the info on this ECM has somewhat entered into 
the public domain (there's a reversed assembly listing on 
the TR homepage).

At my favorite yard, they would probably sell the *entire* 
FI system for $100 or less. (ECM, harness, fuel rail, 
injectors, sensors, coil pack, etc).  I wonder why they 
are so obnoxious in your area?

If anyone ever comes down to West Palm Beach, FL, I'll 
show where the best yard is at. :)  They're awesome.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----

 At local prices, "cheap" would be on the order of $500, plus I'd have
to fabricate my own harness.  Once I figure in my time on adapting the
Bosch I'll be pushing that, but at least I won't be giving my money to
the swine at the junkyards.

 Around here, for example, *no* yard will sell a wiring harness.  Not
even just before they feed the car to the crusher.  Why?  Who the hell
knows, but none of them will budge.
 



From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 28 20:11:13 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:11:13 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33019.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>  He goes on to talk about registering the copyright and says: "You can
>take legal action for infringement only after the copyright has been
>registered".

OK --this is what I was talking about--does anybody know what you gotta do
to "register" a copyright??

I freely admit to being WAY out of date on this, but it would seem that
they cannot sue you over it if they have not registered it.

Where does one register a copyright, and what has to be submitted to do it??

Regards, Greg




From Tedscj at aol.com  Thu Jan 28 20:40:48 1999
From: Tedscj at aol.com (Tedscj at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:40:48 -0500
Subject: Bosch/Buick crossbreed
Message-ID: <mailman.33020.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/28/99 3:16:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mpitts at netspeak.com writes:

<< If anyone ever comes down to West Palm Beach, FL, I'll 
 show where the best yard is at. :)  They're awesome.
  >>

Hey!  I'm in Indian River County!
Perhaps you could clue me in to a good yard or two.  Right now, I go to a U-
Pull it in Ft. Lauderdale to get parts.  It's a good yard, but awful far!
TIA,
Ted


From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Thu Jan 28 21:27:47 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:27:47 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33021.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Greg and all,
  I knew I should have included this.....  
Again all quotes from "How to sell your Software" by Bob Schenot.

"Registration seems to take about four months.  You can obtain the appropriate forms and get information from:

Register of Copyright
Library of Congress
Washington, DC 20559

Public Information: (202) 707-3000
Forms Hotline: (202) 707-9100

  "The copyright office publishes free circulars that will be useful to you--Circular1 ,'Copyright Basics'; Circular 2, 'Publications on Copyright'; and Circular 61, 'Copyright Registration for computer Programs.'
  "Registering a copyright requires you to submit the source code to the copyright office, where it is available to anyone.  While the copyright office instructs you to submit the first and last twenty-five pages of your source code and blank out all the trade secrets (up to 50 percent of the code), the legal community has questioned whether this would be sufficient, or if only that which is deposited would be protected."
  "In any case, there is general agreement that copyright is not a defense against reverse engineering.  Instead, I never let my source out to anyone...,but since my documentation contains all the 'public' information about the program, such as descriptions of key combination and screen layouts, I register a copyright on the documentation and help files and claim (but not register) a copyright on the program.  Since my documentation is embedded in the .exe, and the .exe won't run without it, I can't imagine how someone could violate my copyright on the program without simultaneously violating the registered copyright of the documentation."
  "If you do register a copyright on the program itself, be sure to read Circular 61 very carefully."
  "If you choose not to register, the law requires that you deposit two copies with the Library of Congress if the work is 'published.'  There are fines and other penalties for failure to comply."

Clarence



At 12:59 PM 1/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>>  He goes on to talk about registering the copyright and says: "You can
>>take legal action for infringement only after the copyright has been
>>registered".
>
>OK --this is what I was talking about--does anybody know what you gotta do
>to "register" a copyright??
>
>I freely admit to being WAY out of date on this, but it would seem that
>they cannot sue you over it if they have not registered it.
>
>Where does one register a copyright, and what has to be submitted to do it??
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>
>


From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Jan 28 21:39:05 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:39:05 -0500
Subject: Smooth strategy (was Re: Switch Pitch)
Message-ID: <mailman.33022.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

GM was and is very "smoothness" driven.  Gm's perception of customers,
especially in the Buick/Olds/Caddy markets is that they do not want to
feel any shifts whatsoever.  I will say, after working in 2 Chevy +
Olds dealerships, that Oldsmobile customers tend to be *very*
particular.  So much so that entire days are sometimes consumed in the
chasing of one or two mysterious squeaks.  

If you have any chances to roll around some of the car shows with well
restored examples from the early 40's to late 50's, you'll see that
the upper scale cars were designed to be very smooth.  In the
transmissions, there were vacuum powered clutches, variable speed
transmissions, standard trans with torque converters. Even
synchronizers were designed to improve "smoothness", as trucks into
the 50's were still being built without them. (Ever drive a vehicle
without synchros?) 

It seems there's a sort of balance between the "supply" and "demand"
in product offerings.  For many years, GM (and others) was able to
influence the demand through their supply.  Example?  How many people
realized how much they wanted a minivan before Chrysler introduced
one?  Because of this influence, and the fact that we as "performance
oriented" were a minority, OEM cars tended to cater to the "softer"
side, and their market at the dealership level grew around that.  

Now, I think that's changing, partly because of customer wants and
largely because of EPA influence.  And in a pattern which seems
typical to me, as the cars get more sophisticated, so do the
customers' expectations.  Remember the days when imported cars had
"nuttin buttons"?  They said "performance/mild/economy" or
"stiff/soft" and related to timing or suspension, but made no
difference to the seat of your pants. Regardless, there's still a
market for the people who want their cup holders replaced pronto but
don't realize there's a bad skip in the engine.

And that's it.  We compare what we want to what's available, and as
long as what's available doesn't change, our expectations stay at the
same level.  "Smoothness" has been a goal for years, and many buyers
expect that. Recently, there's been an increase in the "performance
oriented" market, and there are cars being built to supply it.  Maybe
someday there'll be enough market to make classically styled vehicles
with the latest and greatest drivetrains (and cupholders), and then
I'll be able to sell my toolboxes.

Naah.
Shannen


Gwyn Reedy wrote:
> 
> There were comments about the similarity between the DynaFlow and
> Powerglide. I'm wondering if there weren't more similarities between DF and
> TurboGlide? The latter was a no-shift transmission.
> 
> Thinking back about all these earlier transmissions: Was Detroit slow to see
> the need for better performance or was the market all attuned to smoothness
> (or so thought Detroit)?
> 
> Smoothness oriented:
> Chrysler fluid drive
> Dynaflow
> PowerGlide (starting off in 1:1)
> Ford-o-matic starting off in 2nd, kickdown to 1st
> Hydramatic converting to an internal fluid coupling in 1956 to smooth out
> the shifts.
> 
> Not smooth, but not good performance:
> 3 speed manual transmissions
> When 4 speeds came, very high first gear ratios. Nice close ratios, but a
> tall gear to start with. (Was that so the trans cold hold the torque?)
> 
> At least there were manual shift overdrives... (I put one from a Chevy
> behind the B-W automatic in my hot-rod Rambler station wagon once - worked
> fine.) (Don't give me any s**t about that project or I'll have to tell all
> about it...)
> 
> These days the engines are much improved, but lots of the flexibility,
> performance, and economy we get is due to transmission improvements, IMHO.
> 
> Gwyn Reedy
> Brandon, Florida
> mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com



From ludis at cruzers.com  Thu Jan 28 22:04:45 1999
From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:04:45 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33023.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

"Mike Pitts" <mpitts at emi.net> wrote:
> I should be able to 
> get between 128 and 256 samples per second interrogating just 
> two bytes (RPM and MPH).
>
> The earlier post about poor resolution made a good point (25 RPM 
> and 1.0 MPH), you can however query the raw time between cam 
> sensor pulses and the raw VSS count and do your own math to get 
> as precise as you wish.

At least some of the P4 ECMs compute the vehicle speed as a 16 bit
number - one byte for MPH and one byte for the fractional portion.  If
you peek at both of these bytes, it will give you the vehicle speed in
increments of 0.004 MPH.  This 16 bit value is filtered though, so you
might want to grab the raw VSS count and timestamp data anyway.

-- 
Ludis Langens                               ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com
Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies:  http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/




From stuart at kenelec.com.au  Thu Jan 28 23:18:44 1999
From: stuart at kenelec.com.au (Stuart Bunning)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:18:44 -0500
Subject: More DFI q's...
Message-ID: <mailman.33024.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


I agree.... Although no two engines are the same it sure does help to
compare maps from different configurations. It sure helps when you are
starting from scratch.
I am willing to setup such a page if anyone is interested in the idea and
interested in sending me the data to compile such a page. 

ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED ?????????

>>>I think if we can start a section on the homepage with maps (fuel and
>>>timing) from various engines, factory tuned or not, it would be of great
>>>help to those building/programming their own systems. 
>>>
>>>Any comments or suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>
>>>Matt Beaubien
>>>mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
>>>3 x 510
>>>1 x 300ZXT





Best Regards,

STUART BUNNING
SALES ENGINEER
KENELEC PTY LTD

23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
AUSTRALIA

PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
EMAIL:  stuart at kenelec.com.au
WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/



From bearbvd at sni.net  Thu Jan 28 23:52:52 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:52:52 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33025.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hi Greg and all,
>  I knew I should have included this.....
>Again all quotes from "How to sell your Software" by Bob Schenot.
>
>"Registration seems to take about four months.  You can obtain the
>appropriate forms and get information from:
>
>Register of Copyright
>Library of Congress
>Washington, DC 20559
>
>Public Information: (202) 707-3000
>Forms Hotline: (202) 707-9100
>
>  "The copyright office publishes free circulars that will be useful to
>you--Circular1 ,'Copyright Basics'; Circular 2, 'Publications on
>Copyright'; and Circular 61, 'Copyright Registration for computer
>Programs.'
>  "Registering a copyright requires you to submit the source code to the
>copyright office, where it is available to anyone.  While the copyright
>office instructs you to submit the first and last twenty-five pages of
>your source code and blank out all the trade secrets (up to 50 percent of
>the code), the legal community has questioned whether this would be
>sufficient, or if only that which is deposited would be protected."
>  "In any case, there is general agreement that copyright is not a defense
>against reverse engineering.  Instead, I never let my source out to
>anyone...,but since my documentation contains all the 'public' information
>about the program, such as descriptions of key combination and screen
>layouts, I register a copyright on the documentation and help files and
>claim (but not register) a copyright on the program.  Since my
>documentation is embedded in the .exe, and the .exe won't run without it,
>I can't imagine how someone could violate my copyright on the program
>without simultaneously violating the registered copyright of the
>documentation."
>  "If you do register a copyright on the program itself, be sure to read
>Circular 61 very carefully."
>  "If you choose not to register, the law requires that you deposit two
>copies with the Library of Congress if the work is 'published.'  There are
>fines and other penalties for failure to comply."
>
>Clarence
>
THANKS, Clarence!!! That hits the spot!!!!

After reading this, I think it is a pretty safe bet that GM et al have
never registered on little bit of their ecu code, so there is no way they
could sue over playing with it. It would not be too hard to call the public
info # and ask if copies of registered material are available on line for
review, and it would not be too much more trouble to get on their site and
do a search, so as to be sure.

BTW--if anyone finds GM source code on such a site, please pass along the
URL, etc. ---I think some of us might have the site a bit jammed up for the
next month or two!! :-)

Anybody wanna bet a dinner over whether it's there or not????

Regards, Greg
>
>
>At 12:59 PM 1/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  He goes on to talk about registering the copyright and says: "You can
>>>take legal action for infringement only after the copyright has been
>>>registered".
>>
>>OK --this is what I was talking about--does anybody know what you gotta do
>>to "register" a copyright??
>>
>>I freely admit to being WAY out of date on this, but it would seem that
>>they cannot sue you over it if they have not registered it.
>>
>>Where does one register a copyright, and what has to be submitted to do it??
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>
>>




From cbrooks1 at tqci.net  Thu Jan 28 23:53:03 1999
From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:53:03 -0500
Subject: Boneyard Harnesses (was Bosch/Buick crossbreed)
Message-ID: <mailman.33026.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

They must be copyrighted, HahA!  :)

Charles Brooks


>
>Around here, for example, *no* yard will sell a wiring harness.  Not
>even just before they feed the car to the crusher.  Why?  Who the hell
>knows, but none of them will budge.




From trinity at golden.net  Fri Jan 29 00:06:53 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:06:53 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33027.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>> At 08:24 AM 1/28/99 -0500, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:
>
>> >level ground.  At least were I live, level stretches of road where
>> >you can get up to speed are rare.  If they incorporated the data
>> >from a G-field measuring device, like an Analog Digital ADXL05,
>> >you could calculate horsepower even if the road was not level.
>
>Yes, but you still need the speed input since the accelerometer
>cannot tell the difference between acceleration and gravity...
>As far as the horsepower calculation is concerned, you would
>use the acceleration from the accelerometer and the speed from
>another sensor...  The calculation (being mass * velocity * acceleration)
>doesn't care whether the acceleration is due to gravity (going
>uphill) or increase in speed.
>

I've got on the backburner a little performance computer project that hasn't
yet come to much (no time of course). The  idea at the time was to use an
ADXL202 in PWM mode.

If the accelerometer is mounted orthogonally to the gravity vector, it's not
an issue since its contribution is zero (cosine of 90). I'd argue that most
of this "on the road" horsepower testing will take place on a remote, level
road with little traffic or hills etc. Once found, this road should made the
standard to avoid adding additional uncertainties. If using an accelerometer
on hilly roads, all bets are off unless one somehow characterizes the road
by driving slowly and steadily along the road, recording the accelerometer
and logging distance and then factoring the results out of acceleration runs
later.

After reading some of the "audio" ideas recently, I thought about a slightly
different way to do performance calculating, using just the primary ignition
coil signal and the statistics of the car in question.

Why not hook (say) an HC11 to the coil primary and time period between
edges. If the car is placed in, say, second gear and floored from 1000 to
7500RPM (my PGT fuel cut), one could use the ignition signal as both an RPM
reference and also as a "delta-RPM" signal to determine how fast the engine
is accelerating. On my PGTs V6, there's 3 pulses per revolution of the
crank...is this enough I wonder? Time to pull out the notebook and start
calculating.

When I was playing with a G-Tech, I did the "2nd-gear flooring" thing and
noted the maximum g-reading during the run. I used this g-value along with
the loaded radius of the front wheels, the mass of the car (as weighed on a
garbage dump scale) I determined the front-wheel torque required to produce
this acceleration. By knowing the transmission and final drive gear ratios,
and figuring in a 15% drivetrain loss fudge-factor, I was able to get pretty
close to the factory torque figures for the car. Knowing the approximate
speed at which this occured I was also able to then calculate approximate
wheel HP and engine HP, which again, were pretty close to the factory numbers.

Of course, one problem with this scheme is that wind resistance isn't
accounted for which tends to reduce the acceleration rate as vehicle speed
increases.

>> One thing I was gonna mention is the Analog Devices ADXL202, a
>> second generation, 2 axis +/- 5g accelerometer. It's even easier
>
>I looked at it when it first came out and the specs didn't look
>very good to me.  It's bad enough getting .01g resolution out
>of an ADXL05 with any reasonable bandwith and the 202 looked worse to me.
>

My biggest problem with these accelerometers is that they have such a huge
dynamic range (like +/- 5g) and my car is capable, in first gear, of maybe
0.6g and about 0.3g maximum in second gear (hey...that's what 2.5L, 164HP
and 3058-lbs of car gets you :). At 12.5%/g, this amounts to a change in
pulse width of 3.75%. Not much to maintain accuracy. At zero g and 1mS
period, the output is 500uS. 3.75% is about 18.75uS or about 38 counts of a
2MHz HC11 timer clock. Not much to work with.

Sorry for rambling ...


--
 Mike



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 00:45:29 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:45:29 -0500
Subject: More DFI q's...
Message-ID: <mailman.33028.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Bunning <stuart at kenelec.com.au>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: More DFI q's...

Don't be stunned by the silence to follow that comment.
Lots of folks will consider that a really good idea, but not much
action.  Darn few folks will give up something as time consumming
as a map, or prom address.
Bruce
>
>I agree.... Although no two engines are the same it sure does help to
>compare maps from different configurations. It sure helps when you are
>starting from scratch.
>I am willing to setup such a page if anyone is interested in the idea and
>interested in sending me the data to compile such a page.
>
>ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED ?????????
>
>>>>I think if we can start a section on the homepage with maps (fuel and
>>>>timing) from various engines, factory tuned or not, it would be of great
>>>>help to those building/programming their own systems.
>>>>
>>>>Any comments or suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Matt Beaubien
>>>>mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
>>>>3 x 510
>>>>1 x 300ZXT
>
>
>
>
>
>Best Regards,
>
>STUART BUNNING
>SALES ENGINEER
>KENELEC PTY LTD
>
>23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
>MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
>AUSTRALIA
>
>PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
>FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
>EMAIL:  stuart at kenelec.com.au
>WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/
>



From btisdale at cybersol.com  Fri Jan 29 00:48:49 1999
From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:48:49 -0500
Subject: Knock sensor specs
Message-ID: <mailman.33029.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Since the KS thread began, been thinking how important it is.  Did some poking around, after putting together the 555/LED monitor (which didn't work).

DC on the KS is 2.36v; solid rapping on the block near the sensor puts an AC voltage of maybe 0.015v tops on the sensor line.  Scan tool reads knocks, but the value presented can be anything from 1 to 255; when it hears a knock, new (seemingly random) value is set & held till the next 'knock' comes along.  Knock retard degrees always reads zero.

Don't think 0.01VAC is enough fluctuation to trigger the 555 reliably; even using a comparitor, that's barely enough signal to pick out of the background noise - lots of ignition wires nearby. 

Are these readings within normal limits??  Helm manual just says "an AC voltage should be present" (when rapping) - no value given, but 0.01v seems real low.

Thanks for any feedback - Barry


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 01:06:09 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:06:09 -0500
Subject: Intake Runner Length
Message-ID: <mailman.33030.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Van Setten, Tim (AZ75) <Tim.Van.Setten at CAS.honeywell.com>
To: 'DIY-EFI' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:30 PM
Subject: Intake Runner Length


 We are using a speed density
>system and also a dual-fuel setup.  We turbo charge our little girlie
2300cc
>VW's in a 900 lb car and head to the sand dunes.  The dual fuel is
>accomplished by adding a second set of injectors and injecting methanol
only
>under boost.  This makes these air-cooled engines very happy and stops all
>of the pinging problems etc. associated with 15 lbs of boost.

What for ecm?.

 We want to try
>different intake manifold combinations.


For plenum, start at engine displacement, and going as high as 2x
displacement wouldn't be a worry, as long as it worked.
When I can I build the plenum, so I can add layers of spacers.
I'd also, do that for runner lenghts if I were you.
Now, the runner diameters is a real nasty issue, ie lots of possibles.
Stock Car Racing Mag several years ago had an article about them
as I recall.
  With a VW head aren't you rather limited in port diameter?.
Bruce




From jweir at worldnet.att.net  Fri Jan 29 01:07:22 1999
From: jweir at worldnet.att.net (Jason Weir)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:07:22 -0500
Subject: fuel and timing map page
Message-ID: <mailman.33031.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Count me in, I'll offer what I got, and I can do some HTML if needed...
Jason

Stuart Bunning wrote:
> 
> I agree.... Although no two engines are the same it sure does help to
> compare maps from different configurations. It sure helps when you are
> starting from scratch.
> I am willing to setup such a page if anyone is interested in the idea and
> interested in sending me the data to compile such a page.
> 
> ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED ?????????
> 
> >>>I think if we can start a section on the homepage with maps (fuel and
> >>>timing) from various engines, factory tuned or not, it would be of great
> >>>help to those building/programming their own systems.
> >>>
> >>>Any comments or suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Matt Beaubien
> >>>mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
> >>>3 x 510
> >>>1 x 300ZXT
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> STUART BUNNING
> SALES ENGINEER
> KENELEC PTY LTD
> 
> 23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
> MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
> AUSTRALIA
> 
> PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
> FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
> EMAIL:  stuart at kenelec.com.au
> WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/


From cbrooks1 at tqci.net  Fri Jan 29 01:10:54 1999
From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (Charles Brooks)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:10:54 -0500
Subject: Unsubbing
Message-ID: <mailman.33032.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Unfortunately I am losing a little free time to work related matters for a
while. I'll be unsubbing for an unknown period of time. I've enjoyed my stay
quite a bit and look forward to further education from you guys with the
cone shaped hats :)

Good luck with your projects.

Charles Brooks



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 01:11:20 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:11:20 -0500
Subject: Knock sensor specs
Message-ID: <mailman.33033.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:58 PM
Subject: Knock sensor specs


>Since the KS thread began, been thinking how important it is.  Did some
poking around, after putting together the 555/LED monitor (which didn't
work).

The one off the GN has worked for others,,,,,,  What did you use for
trigger?.
>
>DC on the KS is 2.36v; solid rapping on the block near the sensor puts an
AC voltage of maybe 0.015v tops on the sensor line.  Scan tool reads knocks,
but the value presented can be anything from 1 to 255; when it hears a
knock, new (seemingly random) value is set & held till the next 'knock'
comes along.  Knock retard degrees always reads zero.

There are degrees of knock retard, and knock counts (0-255) the
knock counts are the number of counts heard in 1/8 of a second.
Some calibrations for some reason just run 0-255 knock counts, and
repeat that continually.
Bruce
>
>Don't think 0.01VAC is enough fluctuation to trigger the 555 reliably; even
using a comparitor, that's barely enough signal to pick out of the
background noise - lots of ignition wires nearby.
>
>Are these readings within normal limits??  Helm manual just says "an AC
voltage should be present" (when rapping) - no value given, but 0.01v seems
real low.
>
>Thanks for any feedback - Barry
>



From kv at us.ibm.com  Fri Jan 29 01:23:37 1999
From: kv at us.ibm.com (kv at us.ibm.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:23:37 -0500
Subject: Knock sensor specs
Message-ID: <mailman.33034.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>





I built the knock sense detector-  it works fine-  just hook it to the wire
going into the ECM though...  this is a full (rail-rail) logic signal.
Hooking it to the output of the knock sensor will not work.  When you look
at the ECM wire you should see a negative pulse when you rap the block.
All the 555 does is stretch it out so it is long enough that you can see it
on an LED or a beeper.

If you are still having probs...  let me know.

________________________________________________
  Kevin Vannorsdel     IBM Arm Electronics Development
   408-256-6492                Tie 276-6492     kv at us.ibm.com



"Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net> on 01/28/99 05:14:13 PM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu

To:   diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
cc:    (bcc: Kevin Vannorsdel/San Jose/IBM)
Subject:  Re: Knock sensor specs






-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:58 PM
Subject: Knock sensor specs


>Since the KS thread began, been thinking how important it is.  Did some
poking around, after putting together the 555/LED monitor (which didn't
work).

The one off the GN has worked for others,,,,,,  What did you use for
trigger?.
>
>DC on the KS is 2.36v; solid rapping on the block near the sensor puts an
AC voltage of maybe 0.015v tops on the sensor line.  Scan tool reads
knocks,
but the value presented can be anything from 1 to 255; when it hears a
knock, new (seemingly random) value is set & held till the next 'knock'
comes along.  Knock retard degrees always reads zero.

There are degrees of knock retard, and knock counts (0-255) the
knock counts are the number of counts heard in 1/8 of a second.
Some calibrations for some reason just run 0-255 knock counts, and
repeat that continually.
Bruce
>
>Don't think 0.01VAC is enough fluctuation to trigger the 555 reliably;
even
using a comparitor, that's barely enough signal to pick out of the
background noise - lots of ignition wires nearby.
>
>Are these readings within normal limits??  Helm manual just says "an AC
voltage should be present" (when rapping) - no value given, but 0.01v seems
real low.
>
>Thanks for any feedback - Barry
>






From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 01:25:23 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:25:23 -0500
Subject: Last Holden Bin for a while?.
Message-ID: <mailman.33035.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Myers <ponty at axis.jeack.com.au>
To: EFI List <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 1:54 AM
Subject: Last Holden Bin for a while?.

Whatza 082?, meaning what is the whole number?
Thanks
Bruce


>This one is from a 94/95 V8 Manual, but the Engine is the upgraded HSV
>185Kw. Also this ECM is an 082.
>
>Find it on the FTP site-.
>
>BMZL1790.BIN
>
>Bye
>
>Ross
>



From twsharpe at mtco.com  Fri Jan 29 01:33:23 1999
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:33:23 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33036.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce or Greg

One of you is going to love this!!!!

http://www.mot.com/AECS/General/AIEGSensors/Graphics/IPS.html

Get an extra (evaluation unit) and send it to me... Motorola's number is
1-800-521-6274.

Tom




From kenkelly at lucent.com  Fri Jan 29 02:06:14 1999
From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:06:14 -0500
Subject: 1999 truck PCM's ROM
Message-ID: <mailman.33037.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Jake,
 Last week I removed the two Flash chips from my 95 PCM. It was rather
non-destructive, and I put sockets in there place. I took a piece of copper
foil, and cut a hole in it just larger than the flash chip. I pressed it onto
the board surface to use a a heat protector. I then used a heat gun to remove
the chip. If you email me off list I will give you more detail on the procedure
I used. One of the techs at work who does a lot of Surface mount repair work
showed me the technique.

	Technology is moving forward. The 95 uses two 28F512 chips for a total of 1
meg. yours sounds like a 4 meg version, I thought the number should be 28F040
instead of 28F400. I know the 28F010 is a 1 meg chipm and the 28F020 is a 2 meg
chip.

		Ken

Jake Sternberg wrote:
> 
> I have a PCM (powertrain Control Module a.k.a. ECM)
> from a 1999 GMC sierra pickup truck.  The connectors
> are almost bigger than the circuitboard itself.
> 
> Well, anyway.. i have it open, and here's the info
> from the flash ROM chip:
> 
> Intel
> 16236995
> AB28F400BX
> E 5012
> U7400142Q
> Flash
> 
> 44 pins
> 
> It's a surface mount device, but i plan to solder
> little wires to it and to a connector so i can
> plug it into my ROM burner (while it's in vivo).
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions or information
> as to whether this could be a bad idea or has
> anyone done it?  I asked GM for a PCM programmer
> kit but surprisingly, they refused to give me one.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -jake  chickens at mail.utexas.edu


From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 29 02:24:03 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:24:03 -0500
Subject: Intake Runner Length
Message-ID: <mailman.33038.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Van Setten, Tim (AZ75) <Tim.Van.Setten at CAS.honeywell.com>
>To: 'DIY-EFI' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:30 PM
>Subject: Intake Runner Length
>
>
> We are using a speed density
>>system and also a dual-fuel setup.  We turbo charge our little girlie
>2300cc
>>VW's in a 900 lb car and head to the sand dunes.  The dual fuel is
>>accomplished by adding a second set of injectors and injecting methanol
>only
>>under boost.  This makes these air-cooled engines very happy and stops all
>>of the pinging problems etc. associated with 15 lbs of boost.
>
>What for ecm?.
>
> We want to try
>>different intake manifold combinations.
>
>
>For plenum, start at engine displacement, and going as high as 2x
>displacement wouldn't be a worry, as long as it worked.
>When I can I build the plenum, so I can add layers of spacers.
>I'd also, do that for runner lenghts if I were you.
>Now, the runner diameters is a real nasty issue, ie lots of possibles.
>Stock Car Racing Mag several years ago had an article about them
>as I recall.
>  With a VW head aren't you rather limited in port diameter?.
>Bruce

IIRC, at least for a hemi head and a round port, David Vizard used to say
0.9 times the diameter of the intake valve head was about right for the
port , throttle, stack, & everything. For a somewhat shrouded valve, and
less efficient port, my guess would be that something less than that would
work best---

Just my $.02

Regards, Greg




From John.Andrian at usa.net  Fri Jan 29 02:34:14 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:34:14 -0500
Subject: fuel and timing map page
Message-ID: <mailman.33039.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Jason Weir wrote:
> 
> Count me in, I'll offer what I got, and I can do some HTML if needed...
> Jason
> 
> Stuart Bunning wrote:
> >
> > I agree.... Although no two engines are the same it sure does help to
> > compare maps from different configurations. It sure helps when you are
> > starting from scratch.
> > I am willing to setup such a page if anyone is interested in the idea and
> > interested in sending me the data to compile such a page.
> >
> > ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED ?????????
> >
> > >>>I think if we can start a section on the homepage with maps (fuel and
> > >>>timing) from various engines, factory tuned or not, it would be of great
> > >>>help to those building/programming their own systems.
> > >>>
> > >>>Any comments or suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>Matt Beaubien
> > >>>mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
> > >>>3 x 510
> > >>>1 x 300ZXT
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > STUART BUNNING
> > SALES ENGINEER
> > KENELEC PTY LTD
> >
> > 23-25 REDLAND DRIVE
> > MITCHAM VICTORIA 3132
> > AUSTRALIA
> >
> > PHONE:  61 3 9873 1022
> > FAX:    61 3 9873 0200
> > EMAIL:  stuart at kenelec.com.au
> > WEB:    http://www.kenelec.com.au/
I would gladly give some files and info mostly on European OEM systems
if anyone is interested.
John Andrianakis.



From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Fri Jan 29 02:36:54 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:36:54 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.33040.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Gwyn Reedy wrote:

> There were comments about the similarity between the DynaFlow and
> Powerglide. I'm wondering if there weren't more similarities between DF and
> TurboGlide? The latter was a no-shift transmission.
>
Yes, the turboglide, dynaflow and the first 2 years of the powerglide were
similar, non-shifting, multi-element torque converter efforts from GM, who
did not wish to pay royalties for the Simpson planetary patent and also
didnt want to use Borg-Warners Ravigneaux-based transmissions.
 
> Thinking back about all these earlier transmissions: Was Detroit slow to see
> the need for better performance or was the market all attuned to smoothness
> (or so thought Detroit)?
> 
These 50s era horrible automatics were all GM. Ford was an early user of
the Ravigneaux, although the early ones were 2 speeds. GM really dropped
the ball [IMO] after the industry-first single coupling hydro went out of
production in 1956. It wasnt until the BW 400 came out in 1964 that they
had another first class automatic. Mopar, of course, introduced a Simpson
type 3 speed in 1955. Even Nash used 3 speed automatics in the 1950s.




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 29 03:20:23 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:20:23 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33041.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Bruce or Greg
>
>One of you is going to love this!!!!
>
>http://www.mot.com/AECS/General/AIEGSensors/Graphics/IPS.html
>
>Get an extra (evaluation unit) and send it to me... Motorola's number is
>1-800-521-6274.
>
>Tom

Hi Tom--

Neat device--prolly will save a bunch over another industrial type
transducer. THANKS!!

Regards, Greg




From mayerk at idt.net  Fri Jan 29 03:52:35 1999
From: mayerk at idt.net (Ken Mayer)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:52:35 -0500
Subject: Subject: Re: 2:1 Internal & Spur Gear
Message-ID: <mailman.33042.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> From: Dan Llewellyn2 <DanLlwln at ix.netcom.com>
> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:13:37 -0500
> 
> I just need the single gear to gear ratio - it won't be a planetarysetup.  I
> have already tried Browning, Boston, and a few others,
> but their highest capacity stock gears are 5/16" face, straight cut,
> and only good for a few horsepower.  I got a few quotes on
> custom gears, but each quote was over $1,000 per gear (!).
> 
> I thought that if I could find some stock auto/truck gears that had the 2:1
> ratio and meshed,  I could go to a junk yard or transmission shop
> and pick some up inexpensively.  I have a GM350 internal gear with
> 66 teeth that only cost $10 - just don't have the matching spur gear.
> Of course I am open to any other set that would work too.

Do you know what the diametrical pitch of the gear is?  If you can get
access to a milling machine and rotary table (or dividing head), you can
easily cut a spur gear.  Cutters will be in the $40-60 range.  If you can
turn a blank on a lathe, a machine shop that specializes in gear cutting
might be able to cut it for cheap on their gear hobbing machine.  If
you're near NYC, try Madison Gear & Sprocket in Hawthorne, NJ (973 area
code).  Also, try posting to rec.crafts.metalworking- someone there might
be able to make the gear.

Ken
:-)



From beking at home.com  Fri Jan 29 03:59:38 1999
From: beking at home.com (Barry E. King)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:59:38 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33043.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Okay, I'll bite.

How would one go about converting from a conventional system with a return
line to one without?


Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> >Bruce or Greg
> >
> >One of you is going to love this!!!!
> >
> >http://www.mot.com/AECS/General/AIEGSensors/Graphics/IPS.html
> >
> >Get an extra (evaluation unit) and send it to me... Motorola's number is
> >1-800-521-6274.
> >
> >Tom
>
> Hi Tom--
>
> Neat device--prolly will save a bunch over another industrial type
> transducer. THANKS!!
>
> Regards, Greg



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 04:27:30 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:27:30 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33044.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Barry E. King <beking at home.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: RE: Love This


Controlling fuel pump speed/pressure.  They give a little more info
next page.
Bruce

>How would one go about converting from a conventional system with a return
>line to one without?
>Regards,
>Barry




From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Fri Jan 29 05:34:59 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 00:34:59 -0500
Subject: Boneyard Harnesses (was Bosch/Buick crossbreed)
Message-ID: <mailman.33045.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Teller.John at orbital.com wrote:

> Try going to a U-Pull-It sort of junk yard.  The ones any where near here
> (D.C. suburbs) are all pretty well organized and insured and thus do not
> allow cretins such as I onto their lots.  As you get further from
> metropolitan areas, and are willing to do the wrenching yourself, you can
> pull just about anything you want.

    Any luck with local yards?  I have found that a AAACO will let you take
harness for just a few bucks, but if you even mention something more tangible
like a steering wheel or something they will price it up.  I guess harness'
aren't worth much in the Ft. Belvior area.

James Ballenger



From synchris at ricochet.net  Fri Jan 29 05:54:41 1999
From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 00:54:41 -0500
Subject: accelerometer based dyno ideas
Message-ID: <mailman.33046.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 11:07 AM 1/28/99 -0800, Orin Eman wrote:

>> At 08:24 AM 1/28/99 -0500, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:
>
>> >you can get up to speed are rare.  If they incorporated the data
>> >from a G-field measuring device, like an Analog Digital ADXL05,
>
>Yes, but you still need the speed input since the accelerometer
>cannot tell the difference between acceleration and gravity...

Yeah, sort of. There are a lot of intermediate levels depending on
how many simplifying assumptions you make. If you require the road
to be flat (not necessarily level) and suspension travel to be
effectively nil, you can subtract out the known constant 1g gravity
vector. (This assumes a 2-axis accelerometer, which the adxl202 is.)

If you try to solve the more realistic problem, and allow nonflat
roads and suspension travel, it gets trickier. For my own amusement
I've tried to see how much of that you could reliably factor out,
but haven't gotten too far.

>As far as the horsepower calculation is concerned, you would
>use the acceleration from the accelerometer and the speed from
>another sensor...

If you have the speed, from RPM, VSS or whatever, I guess you could
use that info in combination with the accelerometer info to
compensate for nonlevel (and perhaps nonflat?) roads. I haven't
really thought about this yet.

In any case you still need mass plugged in as a given, right?
To get horsepower rather than acceleration I mean.


>> One thing I was gonna mention is the Analog Devices ADXL202, a
>> second generation, 2 axis +/- 5g accelerometer. It's even easier
>
>I looked at it when it first came out and the specs didn't look
>very good to me.  It's bad enough getting .01g resolution out
>of an ADXL05 with any reasonable bandwith and the 202 looked worse
>to me.

I agree that getting a high resolution*bandwidth product out of the
xl05 is not easy, but I don't see how it's any worse for the xl202.
The noise spec is exactly the same for both parts. Maybe if you needed
to use the PWM output on the xl202 that would make it tougher, but
the raw analog signal is easily available too.  I'm not trying to
irritate anyone here, maybe there's just something I'm missing?

   Chris C.




From james at brc.ubc.ca  Fri Jan 29 05:58:07 1999
From: james at brc.ubc.ca (James Weiler)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 00:58:07 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33047.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of a 
one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.
thanks
jw


On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Barry E. King wrote:

> Okay, I'll bite.
> 
> How would one go about converting from a conventional system with a return
> line to one without?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Barry
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >Bruce or Greg
> > >
> > >One of you is going to love this!!!!
> > >
> > >http://www.mot.com/AECS/General/AIEGSensors/Graphics/IPS.html
> > >
> > >Get an extra (evaluation unit) and send it to me... Motorola's number is
> > >1-800-521-6274.
> > >
> > >Tom
> >
> > Hi Tom--
> >
> > Neat device--prolly will save a bunch over another industrial type
> > transducer. THANKS!!
> >
> > Regards, Greg
> 
> 


From Fisystems at aol.com  Fri Jan 29 06:11:59 1999
From: Fisystems at aol.com (Fisystems at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 01:11:59 -0500
Subject: Looking for injectors
Message-ID: <mailman.33048.1369893298.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/28/99 6:06:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Tim.Van.Setten at CAS.honeywell.com writes:

<< What kind? Type, brand, flow rate, O-ring, Hose-barb?????
  >>
24,27,32lb For GM TPI


From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Fri Jan 29 06:43:41 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 01:43:41 -0500
Subject: Last Holden Bin for a while?.
Message-ID: <mailman.33049.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Whatza 082?, meaning what is the whole number?
>Thanks
>Bruce

A 16183082, like an 808 but with faster ALDL.

Ross





From alaint at cgocable.ca  Fri Jan 29 07:04:21 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:04:21 -0500
Subject: netscape trashing e-mail was Re: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.33050.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> I think netscape ate my previous reply.  What an unadulterated piece of
> trash it is.  Maybe it'll get better when AOL owns it (ha ha ha).

wait untill they release the mail & news portion as OSS (OpenSource
Software),the only showstopper preventing them is that they use a
comercial database software for storing mail and they can't release THAT
source (it's from another company),they are considering using the gnu
database lib as replacement,when they do that,i expect a lot of hacker
will clean the app (and really shrink the size,can you say communicator 6
delivered on 3 floppy ??).

Alain Toussaint
Drummondville
Quebec,Canada
alaint at cgocable.ca




From alaint at cgocable.ca  Fri Jan 29 07:09:17 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:09:17 -0500
Subject: Intake Runner Length
Message-ID: <mailman.33051.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Stock Car Racing Mag several years ago had an article about them
> as I recall.

arggg....i think i had it,maybe still do (had to ditch 7 BIG box full of
mag some time ago),will check for it,if i don't reply untill monday next
week,i don't have it but i'll still let you know.

>   With a VW head aren't you rather limited in port diameter?.
> Bruce
> 
> 
> 

Alain Toussaint
Drummondville
Quebec,Canada
alaint at cgocable.ca




From alaint at cgocable.ca  Fri Jan 29 07:17:56 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:17:56 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33052.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of a 
> one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.
> thanks
> jw

ummm...maybe crafting a fuel pressure gauge ??

Alain Toussaint
Drummondville
Quebec,Canada
alaint at cgocable.ca




From thormj at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 29 07:50:59 1999
From: thormj at earthlink.net (Thor Johnson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:50:59 -0500
Subject: A slightly different tact on the "Mod Chip" question
Message-ID: <mailman.33053.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Unless someone wants to see all of this, I encourage direct email to me as a
way to keep this from polluting the list.

I saw the stuff on the Mod Chip question, but was wondering if this is legal:
You take the Ford/Chevy/Whathaveyou ECMs from junkyards/older clients (offer a
sort of trade-in deal), reprogram the maps & add a few "features", & sell them
back into service as "improved" ECM boxes.

You would never duplicate the code... only modify what they gave you to add
some value for your customers.

An analog to this that we are persuing for non-auto purposes is the placement
of custom code/logos into computer BIOSes, which seems to be the same to me...
but I welcome all opinions on this.

TIA,
Thor Johnson





From dzorde at geocities.com  Fri Jan 29 08:11:40 1999
From: dzorde at geocities.com (dzorde)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 03:11:40 -0500
Subject: EFI Questions
Message-ID: <mailman.33054.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Tried the plug cuts.  Looks nice and clean (no detonation) but I already
know that its OK on avgas.  Plugs are a medium grey, with probably a slight
browning of the ceramic tip (NGK BP6S plugs).  And yet the car is still
running very rich (I think around 0.8-0.9V is rich).  So how does a plug
look like its OK and yet all other indications are that its rich (got me
puzzled) ?

Dan     dzorde at soanar.com.au

-----Original Message-----
From:	Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
Sent:	Monday, January 25, 1999 12:29 PM
To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject:	Re: EFI questions


-----Original Message-----
From: dzorde <dzorde at geocities.com>
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:15 PM
Subject: EFI questions

When in doubt read the spark plugs.  AV can look lean, but the signs of
detonation are always present, from what I've seen.  Now, I'll fully admit,
it's been years since doing much AV gas reading.  Try a load of good
racing gas if you have trouble reading the AV stuff.  And I've got zero
time reading australian AV Gas.
  Pipe coloring is dead in my book.
Bruce




From dzorde at geocities.com  Fri Jan 29 08:14:10 1999
From: dzorde at geocities.com (dzorde)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 03:14:10 -0500
Subject: EFI Questions 
Message-ID: <mailman.33055.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

This computer has a manual rpm setting for fuel cut off during decel and I
have it turned of.  When you use it its like driving on a rev limiter, you
can feel when it cuts the fuel off.  Probably uses same subroutine as the
rev limiter.

Brings me back to the original question.  Has anyone noticed on a OEM speed
density system what happens when you get of the accelerator.  My system
jumps from a high load band to a light load band (seems logical), however as
this lighter load band is using a much smaller pulse width the engine
instantly goes very lean when entering this band from a heavy load band.
Does this seem right ?  What happens in a OEM system ?

Dan     dzorde at soanar.com.au 

-----Original Message-----
From:	Shannen Durphey [SMTP:shannen at grolen.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, January 26, 1999 12:11 AM
To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject:	Re: EFI questions


GM stuff leans out during decel and high rpm/no load.  It's not as
noticeable in the gas stuff, but the EFI diesels actually seem to shut
down during decel.  It's one way to help fuel economy.
Shannen



From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Fri Jan 29 08:33:35 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 03:33:35 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33056.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of
-> a one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.

 GM claims it is less likely to 'vapor lock', or boil the fuel in the
injector rails.  I always thought flushing the rail with fresh, cool
fuel with a recirculating system worked just fine, so their claim might
just be PR.

==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                                                               


From orin at wolfenet.com  Fri Jan 29 08:51:35 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 03:51:35 -0500
Subject: accelerometer based dyno ideas
Message-ID: <mailman.33057.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> At 11:07 AM 1/28/99 -0800, Orin Eman wrote:

> >> At 08:24 AM 1/28/99 -0500, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:
> >
> >> >you can get up to speed are rare.  If they incorporated the data
> >> >from a G-field measuring device, like an Analog Digital ADXL05,
> >
> >Yes, but you still need the speed input since the accelerometer
> >cannot tell the difference between acceleration and gravity...

> Yeah, sort of. There are a lot of intermediate levels depending on
> how many simplifying assumptions you make. If you require the road
> to be flat (not necessarily level) and suspension travel to be
> effectively nil, you can subtract out the known constant 1g gravity
> vector. (This assumes a 2-axis accelerometer, which the adxl202 is.)

Sure, assuming a flat level road etc., you only need one axis.
With an additional axis, vertical thru the car (a_p), you can measure
the angle of the car to the horizontal - it's cos-1(a_p/g)
The the force required to overcome gravity is m* g * sin(angle to horizontal).
The total force produced by the car is now the above plus
m * measured acceleration.

All in one - power is:

m * v * (forward accel + g * sin(cos-1(vertical accel/g)))

That's messy, so I looked at the vector diagram instead and found
you can replace the g * sin/cos-1 mess with square_root(g*g - a_p*a_p)

> If you try to solve the more realistic problem, and allow nonflat
> roads and suspension travel, it gets trickier. For my own amusement
> I've tried to see how much of that you could reliably factor out,
> but haven't gotten too far.

I'll think about that one later, though my guess is the above
correction gets most of it... if your sensors are at the center
of gravity of the car that is.

Actually, the inclination of roads changes fairly slowly,
so you could filter out most of the suspension movement
on the 'vertical' sensor and just get a reading of the
angle to horizontal.

> >As far as the horsepower calculation is concerned, you would
> >use the acceleration from the accelerometer and the speed from
> >another sensor...

> If you have the speed, from RPM, VSS or whatever, I guess you could
> use that info in combination with the accelerometer info to
> compensate for nonlevel (and perhaps nonflat?) roads. I haven't
> really thought about this yet.

> In any case you still need mass plugged in as a given, right?
> To get horsepower rather than acceleration I mean.

You always need mass... the formula is m * v * a 
mass times velocity times acceleration.

It comes from force * distance / time.  Distance / time is speed.
Force from mass * acceleration.  All is fine if all the force
is used accelerating the car.  If some is used to overcome the
effect of gravity, that's when we get inaccurate.

> >> One thing I was gonna mention is the Analog Devices ADXL202, a
> >> second generation, 2 axis +/- 5g accelerometer. It's even easier
> >
> >I looked at it when it first came out and the specs didn't look
> >very good to me.  It's bad enough getting .01g resolution out
> >of an ADXL05 with any reasonable bandwith and the 202 looked worse
> >to me.

> I agree that getting a high resolution*bandwidth product out of the
> xl05 is not easy, but I don't see how it's any worse for the xl202.
> The noise spec is exactly the same for both parts. Maybe if you needed
> to use the PWM output on the xl202 that would make it tougher, but
> the raw analog signal is easily available too.  I'm not trying to
> irritate anyone here, maybe there's just something I'm missing?

I looked at the PWM signal and couldn't see any reason to use
it over the ADXL05 with some filtering and a 10 bit AtoD.
I didn't look at the analog output specs for the '02.
The '05 output is d*mn noisy looking at the signal on the scope though!

I must admit that the Analog packaging options always seem
to put the part I want in the most irritating package - the
ADXL05 in the silly can and the AD597 either $15 in ceramic dip
or $4 in surface mount.  I solder surface mount for that difference!

Orin.


From mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca  Fri Jan 29 09:01:29 1999
From: mbeaubie at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Matt Beaubien)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:01:29 -0500
Subject: More DFI q's...
Message-ID: <mailman.33058.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Stuart,
 
> I agree.... Although no two engines are the same it sure does help to
> compare maps from different configurations. It sure helps when you are
> starting from scratch.
> I am willing to setup such a page if anyone is interested in the idea and
> interested in sending me the data to compile such a page. 

I'll send you the map of this supercharged Ford when everything gets all
wrapped up.  The full throttle stuff will be ok, as well as some of the
lower speed part throttle points, but that's about it as it's mainly a drag
car...

For those who are following along/interested, we had a interesting dyno
session with the 302 Ford tonight.  While looking over the Superflow
printouts, I noticed that the manifold pressure was given in " Hg, not psi.
So, we weren't running 21 psi the other day, it was more like 10 psi.  Also,
we found an extra 100 HP tonight without really trying.  It turns out the
blow-off valve was relieving itself, letting out a bunch of the precious
air.  After correcting the BOV problem, HP hit 800 with 13 psi and 6300 RPM
before the BOV relieved again.  Torque still hadn't peaked and I've still
only corrected glaring errors in the fuel map, and the timing is a
conservative 20ish degrees...  Wait till the thing is leaned out (EGT's
still below 1200), temps balanced through trim (200 degree spread with Hogan
sheetmetal manifold), and the spark smartened up...

I have a couple of questions still for those familiar with the DFI.  While
using the lame data logging (15 sec max interval), I had it log the base
fuel PW, the additive correction, the multiplicative correction, and
the gross PW.  The additive and mult correction stayed at zero the entire
time (even during TPS transients) but the gross PW varied.  Some times it
was even less than the base PW.  I looked through the maps and couldn't find
any that would take away from the base PW so I'm a little confused.  Can
anyone shed any light?

Thanks for everyones help.


Matt Beaubien
mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
3 x 510
1 x 300ZXT
Edmonont, Alberta




From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Fri Jan 29 12:07:05 1999
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:07:05 -0500
Subject: Dark Side Update
Message-ID: <mailman.33059.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Reviewing some mandatory reading of Dogma provided by the Supreme Grand High
Instigator in Arkansaw reveals some interesting insight.   The first practical
GASOLINE fuel injection was by Mercedes for aircraft engines using direct
cylinder injection.   Operational in 1939ish.   The whoosy port injection
system was invented to retain some of the benefits without the expense, and
even later yet, Continuous flow systems such as the Hilborn and Bosch CIS were
invented to reduce the costs of the then ridiculously overpriced port
injection systems.   Not quite what the dweebshite pronounce daily in their
infinite arrogance.  Was it Einstein? "The difference between genius and
stupidity is that genius has bounds" 

What is interesting to note is that all the early direct injection system
injected the fuel thru the side of the BLOCK and directly on to the exhaust
valve.  Both OHV and OHC - mainly Mercedes.  Timing was critical to the extent
that all the fuel had to get into the cylinder prior to the injector being
blocked by the uprising piston.  Now this is going to entail two holes in the
block per cylinder for the Dark Side demonic 8 - one for direct injection and
one for something else.  Better than a hole in the head - saylor?

Not having the benefit of having ME-101 Orthodoxy rammed home aurally by some
enlightened grad student who has never ran an engine on a dyno, silly me
actually believes what the squarehead engineers discovered - that over
hundreds of thousands of hours of testing on engines that their comrades lives
depended on, optimum power and economy ( both required for a fighter in
defense of the homeland ) was developed by using the hot exhaust valve to
vaporize the fuel.  The same baseline knowledge that went into the much later
port injection derivatives - aim the fuel at the back side of the intake valve
to keep as much fuel off the port floor as possible.  But - hey what did they
know - they only invented and perfected fuel injection before most of our
daddies were born.

So we haff discovered a cheap 8 cylinder desiel injection system and are now
proceeding on adapting it to at least one test engine.  Will blend some
synthetic 2 cycle oil initially to keep pump alive.  You haff no ideer of da
Konkoctions being considered for the fuel.  The initial target engine is a
flathead Ford V-8 - a far more recent "modern" design than those antique silly
overhead cammers, using the oldest fuel injection method - direct injection

And since I despise Gunnerman and actually understand Glassman and Ricardo,
there will be a blending chamber ahead of the inlet to the pump and a variable
blend of water, fuel and whatnot will get sucked into the pump and squirted
into the cylinder at 1500 to 2500 psi.  Homogenize that -  A-21 bright yellow
Pogue Carb Hype Shyte.  You might want to read Irwin Glassman's Combustion -
third edition to find out what really happens when a homogenized blend of fuel
and water is burned.   But don't let facts interfere with fantasy.

Control of the system will be easy. Drivers foot controls fuel, computer
catches up and controls air only.   We darksiders know that only two mixture
ratio's are "optimum" - pig rich - about .8 lambda and lean misfire - so we
don't even care about the air as long as its in between.  Another long story.
Think stepper motor to move the main air plates about, Ford IAC to feedback
and compensate for EGO.  More will be revealed.  Yes virginia, the dark side
is rapidly converging to a working EFI - without dweebish input or consent.

And if you are not prejudiced against knowledge, you might want to think about
the fact that a carb venturi generates a usable flow signal over about a 900
to 1 range vs most modern EFI ranges of 30 to 1 or so, and that Ford on some
of its Indy racer motors used a pressure sensor to measure the pressure drop
generated in a venturi to meter the fuel.  Reference a ridiculously sensitive
Ford one bar Map sensor to air above venturi, other side to vacuum, pressure
change corresponds to air flow - blow thru suck thru boost no boost makes nada
difference.  Light filter on output and would be totally insensitive to any
boost,  cam, intake air reversion or what ever without even burning up
computation or changing sensor.  Interested - ask me how someday when I don't
feel like all humanity sucks and reeks - probably before I go to work and face
the great unwashed retail public.

1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"

Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com  Fri Jan 29 13:33:50 1999
From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:33:50 -0500
Subject: Boneyard Harnesses (was Bosch/Buick crossbreed)
Message-ID: <mailman.33060.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In the IL. area a U-Pull-It harness goes for $11 with fuse box add $6

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Charles Brooks [SMTP:cbrooks1 at tqci.net]
> Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 5:56 PM
> To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:	Re: Boneyard Harnesses (was Bosch/Buick crossbreed)
> 
> They must be copyrighted, HahA!  :)
> 
> Charles Brooks
> 
> 
> >
> >Around here, for example, *no* yard will sell a wiring harness.  Not
> >even just before they feed the car to the crusher.  Why?  Who the hell
> >knows, but none of them will budge.
> 


From rauscher at icst.com  Fri Jan 29 13:56:26 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:56:26 -0500
Subject: More DFI q's...
Message-ID: <mailman.33061.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



If I'm reading this correctly, it is somewhat being done. Not just well
organized. In the DIY_EFI incoming and bin directories there are a
bunch of BIN's from mostly OEM systems. I've placed the one from
one of my vehicles there and Bruce has placed some of the ones he
worked up there also. 

For the record, I'm for it. I'll have no problem uploading my resulting
BIN from my current project. 

The biggest addition/advantage would be a better document describing
the engine/tranny/accessory combo for that BIN.

BobR.


Stuart wrote:

>I agree.... Although no two engines are the same it sure does help to
>compare maps from different configurations. It sure helps when you are
>starting from scratch.
>I am willing to setup such a page if anyone is interested in the idea and
>interested in sending me the data to compile such a page. 
>
>ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED ?????????
>
>>>I think if we can start a section on the homepage with maps (fuel and
>>>timing) from various engines, factory tuned or not, it would be of great
>>>help to those building/programming their own systems. 
>>>
>>>Any comments or suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>
>>>Matt Beaubien
>>>mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
>>>3 x 510
>>>1 x 300ZXT




From ECMnut at aol.com  Fri Jan 29 13:57:26 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:57:26 -0500
Subject: EFI Questions
Message-ID: <mailman.33062.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Dan,
 I believe most of the GM stuff shuts off the injectors for 
"coast down" conditions, but  they give a *blip* of max pulse 
width, once in a while, just to supply some fuel to keep the 
convertor lit.  
 I was recording dragstrip runs with a diacom, and could not 
figure out what was causing the injector pulse to spike from zero
 to 32ms(!) while coasting down at the end of the runs..
At 4000 rpm, that is something like 4 Revolutions of full
time injector spray.. I have a speed density 6cyl, 
where all of the injectors fire together....
I have a graph of a run at the bottom of the page, at
 http://www.enzoco.com/mike/syclone/monitor.htm
It is a tall page, so scroll downward if you are interested..
HTH
Mike V

In a message dated 1/29/99 3:20:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dzorde at geocities.com writes:
>  Brings me back to the original question.  Has anyone noticed on a OEM speed
>  density system what happens when you get of the accelerator.  My system
>  jumps from a high load band to a light load band (seems logical), however
as
>  this lighter load band is using a much smaller pulse width the engine
>  instantly goes very lean when entering this band from a heavy load band.
>  Does this seem right ?  What happens in a OEM system ?


From rauscher at icst.com  Fri Jan 29 14:23:17 1999
From: rauscher at icst.com (rauscher at icst.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:23:17 -0500
Subject: Knock sensor specs
Message-ID: <mailman.33063.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



15mV AC from the KS seems low, what did you use to measure the output? If a DVM,
remember
that it averages over a period of time.

To trigger your 555, you need to get the signal from the KS filter module. The
GN systems have this
as a seperate unit that plugs into the ECM harness. Easy to get to.  If your
system has this, tap
into the filter output, which goes low during knock detection. Trigger the 555
though a .01uf cap, with
a 10K Ohm pullup on the 555 trigger pin.

If your working on a '730 ECM, or another that the filter module is internal,
I'm not sure what to
tell you. You could either wire in an external filter or tap into the ECM for
the knock signal.

BobR.

Who needs to dust the wood chips and plaster off his cone shaped hat,
and get back to the bench to finish the KS filter work...



Barry wrote:
>Since the KS thread began, been thinking how important it is.  Did some poking
around, after putting >together the 555/LED monitor (which didn't work).
>
>DC on the KS is 2.36v; solid rapping on the block near the sensor puts an AC
voltage of maybe 0.015v >tops on the sensor line.  Scan tool reads knocks, but
the value presented can be anything from 1 to >255; when it hears a knock, new
(seemingly random) value is set & held till the next 'knock' comes >along. 
Knock retard degrees always reads zero.
>
>Don't think 0.01VAC is enough fluctuation to trigger the 555 reliably; even
using a comparitor, that's >barely enough signal to pick out of the background
noise - lots of ignition wires nearby. 
>
>Are these readings within normal limits??  Helm manual just says "an AC voltage
should be present" >(when rapping) - no value given, but 0.01v seems real low.
>
>Thanks for any feedback - Barry





From rah at horizon.hit.net  Fri Jan 29 14:43:47 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:43:47 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33064.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Mike wrote:

> >
> >> At 08:24 AM 1/28/99 -0500, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:
> >
> >> >level ground.  At least were I live, level stretches of road where
> >> >you can get up to speed are rare.  If they incorporated the data
> >> >from a G-field measuring device, like an Analog Digital ADXL05,
> >> >you could calculate horsepower even if the road was not level.
> >
> >Yes, but you still need the speed input since the accelerometer
> >cannot tell the difference between acceleration and gravity...
> >As far as the horsepower calculation is concerned, you would
> >use the acceleration from the accelerometer and the speed from
> >another sensor...  The calculation (being mass * velocity * acceleration)
> >doesn't care whether the acceleration is due to gravity (going
> >uphill) or increase in speed.
> >
> 
> After reading some of the "audio" ideas recently, I thought about a slightly
> different way to do performance calculating, using just the primary ignition
> coil signal and the statistics of the car in question.
> 
> Why not hook (say) an HC11 to the coil primary and time period between
> edges. If the car is placed in, say, second gear and floored from 1000 to
> 7500RPM (my PGT fuel cut), one could use the ignition signal as both an RPM
> reference and also as a "delta-RPM" signal to determine how fast the engine
> is accelerating. On my PGTs V6, there's 3 pulses per revolution of the
> crank...is this enough I wonder? Time to pull out the notebook and start
> calculating.
>

That is mostly what the home dyno kit does.   You collect the
information off of a spark plug, and then use that to calculate
acceleartion based on the rpm changes.  The program is setup to record
the data as a audio signal and then later process that audio signal on
a computer to get the info out.

The person who did the home dyno kit is on the f-body list, and did
communicate with him some while he was first building the device.
 

			Roger



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Fri Jan 29 14:47:07 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:47:07 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33065.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Barry E. King wrote:

> Okay, I'll bite.
> 
> How would one go about converting from a conventional system with a return
> line to one without?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Barry

Besides the physical conversion, you would need to add a input to the
computer that mesaures the pressure from the transducer, and use that
pressure to adjust the injector pulsewidths based on pressure.  So
beyond physcially converting your would need significant computer
adjustements (probably even computer hardware adjustments to get the
addition A/D input to use for the injector fuel pressure that is to be
used in the calculation of injector pulsewidths.

				Roger



From beking at home.com  Fri Jan 29 14:49:35 1999
From: beking at home.com (Barry E. King)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:49:35 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33066.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Yeah, saw that.  I guess I was more wondering how the plumbing end of it
would work.

Presumably modulating the fuel pump to achieve a more or less steady target
differential pressure is what would be required on the electrical end fo
things.  Ack.  Too many multi-syllabic words for this time of day.

Yet another computer function required.

Some days I feel like going back to carbs.  <g>


Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Bruce
> Plecan
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 9:30 PM
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Love This
>
> Controlling fuel pump speed/pressure.  They give a little more info
> next page.
> Bruce



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 14:51:05 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:51:05 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.33067.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The Honda Part Number 36531-P07-003 used in the 92-95 VTEC
Civics are 5 wire.  There are seven pins in the connector, 2 being
for a "calibration" resistor.  
  Where is the error here?.
Bruce

The LAF Sensor currently is used only on the lean burn Civic which 
were:
92-95 VX
96-98 HX
All LAF sensors are 7 wire.




From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 15:13:58 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:13:58 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33068.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: James Weiler <james at brc.ubc.ca>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM
Subject: RE: Love This

For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news".  It's being able to
manipulate
fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device.  As things sit now
for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost.  With this
device
a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible,
meaning
big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse widths.
Bruce


>Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of >a
one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.
>thanks
>jw
>




From EOA at spartek.com  Fri Jan 29 15:51:57 1999
From: EOA at spartek.com (Eric Aos)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:51:57 -0500
Subject: More DFI q's...
Message-ID: <mailman.33069.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I don't have anything yet (still collecting parts, and knowledge), but
I'll contribute when I have something worth looking at.

I agree.... Although no two engines are the same it sure does help to
compare maps from different configurations. It sure helps when you are
starting from scratch.
I am willing to setup such a page if anyone is interested in the idea
and
interested in sending me the data to compile such a page. 

ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED ?????????

>>>I think if we can start a section on the homepage with maps (fuel and
>>>timing) from various engines, factory tuned or not, it would be of
great
>>>help to those building/programming their own systems. 
>>>
>>>Any comments or suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>
>>>Matt Beaubien
>>>mbeaubie at ualberta.ca
>>>3 x 510
>>>1 x 300ZXT


From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Fri Jan 29 16:46:56 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:46:56 -0500
Subject: Knock sensor specs
Message-ID: <mailman.33070.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

 I missed some of this thread....where can I find the schematic for the knock sensor detector??

Clarence

At 06:22 PM 1/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
>I built the knock sense detector-  it works fine-  just hook it to the wire
>going into the ECM though...  this is a full (rail-rail) logic signal.
>Hooking it to the output of the knock sensor will not work.  When you look
>at the ECM wire you should see a negative pulse when you rap the block.
>All the 555 does is stretch it out so it is long enough that you can see it
>on an LED or a beeper.
>
>If you are still having probs...  let me know.
>
>________________________________________________
>  Kevin Vannorsdel     IBM Arm Electronics Development
>   408-256-6492                Tie 276-6492     kv at us.ibm.com
>
>
>
>"Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net> on 01/28/99 05:14:13 PM
>
>Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>
>To:   diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>cc:    (bcc: Kevin Vannorsdel/San Jose/IBM)
>Subject:  Re: Knock sensor specs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:58 PM
>Subject: Knock sensor specs
>
>
>>Since the KS thread began, been thinking how important it is.  Did some
>poking around, after putting together the 555/LED monitor (which didn't
>work).
>
>The one off the GN has worked for others,,,,,,  What did you use for
>trigger?.
>>
>>DC on the KS is 2.36v; solid rapping on the block near the sensor puts an
>AC voltage of maybe 0.015v tops on the sensor line.  Scan tool reads
>knocks,
>but the value presented can be anything from 1 to 255; when it hears a
>knock, new (seemingly random) value is set & held till the next 'knock'
>comes along.  Knock retard degrees always reads zero.
>
>There are degrees of knock retard, and knock counts (0-255) the
>knock counts are the number of counts heard in 1/8 of a second.
>Some calibrations for some reason just run 0-255 knock counts, and
>repeat that continually.
>Bruce
>>
>>Don't think 0.01VAC is enough fluctuation to trigger the 555 reliably;
>even
>using a comparitor, that's barely enough signal to pick out of the
>background noise - lots of ignition wires nearby.
>>
>>Are these readings within normal limits??  Helm manual just says "an AC
>voltage should be present" (when rapping) - no value given, but 0.01v seems
>real low.
>>
>>Thanks for any feedback - Barry
>>
>
>
>
>
>


From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Fri Jan 29 17:00:05 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:00:05 -0500
Subject: New Turbo from Garrett
Message-ID: <mailman.33071.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi all,
  I just got this info from another list, has anybody heard about this?

"I just read about a new turbo system in Automotive Industries magazine. 
Allied Signal Turbocharging (AKA Garrett) has just announced an 
oil-driven turbo. It is called the HydroCharger, and permits a blower 
speed independent of engine speed. It is intended for diesels, but 
adaptable to anything. It offers 'supercharger-like low end response and 
excellent packaging'. The drive motor is about half the size of the 
exhaust-driven turbine and is direct-coupled to the impeller. They also 
are working on a 'dry' tirbo using air bearings."

Clarence


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 17:04:43 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:04:43 -0500
Subject: Knock sensor specs
Message-ID: <mailman.33072.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Clarence Wood <clarencewood at centuryinter.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Knock sensor specs

The circuit involved here is for monitoring the ESC Modules input to the
ecm,
it's at the Turbo Buick GN-Ttype site in the Tech area.
Bruce


> I missed some of this thread....where can I find the schematic for the
knock sensor detector??
>Clarence
>>I built the knock sense detector-  it works fine-  just hook it to the
wire
>>going into the ECM though...  this is a full (rail-rail) logic signal.
>>Hooking it to the output of the knock sensor will not work.  When you look
>>at the ECM wire you should see a negative pulse when you rap the block.
>>All the 555 does is stretch it out so it is long enough that you can see
it
>>on an LED or a beeper.
>>If you are still having probs...  let me know.
 Kevin Vannorsdel     IBM Arm Electronics Development
 kv at us.ibm.com
>>>Since the KS thread began, been thinking how important it is.  Did some
>>poking around, after putting together the 555/LED monitor (which didn't
>>work).
>>The one off the GN has worked for others,,,,,,  What did you use for
>>trigger?.
>>>DC on the KS is 2.36v; solid rapping on the block near the sensor puts an
>>AC voltage of maybe 0.015v tops on the sensor line.  Scan tool reads
>>knocks,
>>but the value presented can be anything from 1 to 255; when it hears a
>>knock, new (seemingly random) value is set & held till the next 'knock'
>>comes along.  Knock retard degrees always reads zero.
>>There are degrees of knock retard, and knock counts (0-255) the
>>knock counts are the number of counts heard in 1/8 of a second.
>>Some calibrations for some reason just run 0-255 knock counts, and
>>repeat that continually.
>>Bruce
>>>Don't think 0.01VAC is enough fluctuation to trigger the 555 reliably;
>>even
>>using a comparitor, that's barely enough signal to pick out of the
>>background noise - lots of ignition wires nearby.
>>>Are these readings within normal limits??  Helm manual just says "an AC
>>voltage should be present" (when rapping) - no value given, but 0.01v
seems
>>real low.
>>>Thanks for any feedback - Barry




From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Fri Jan 29 17:15:35 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:15:35 -0500
Subject: netscape trashing e-mail was Re: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.33073.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



Alain Toussaint wrote:

> wait untill they release the mail & news portion as OSS (OpenSource
> Software),the only showstopper preventing them is that they use a
> comercial database software for storing mail and they can't release THAT
> source (it's from another company),they are considering using the gnu
> database lib as replacement,when they do that,i expect a lot of hacker
> will clean the app (and really shrink the size,can you say communicator 6
> delivered on 3 floppy ??).

The next version 5.0 is supposed to be around 5mb down from 14.5 mb.

James Ballenger



From trinity at golden.net  Fri Jan 29 17:25:29 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:25:29 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33074.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>That is mostly what the home dyno kit does.   You collect the
>information off of a spark plug, and then use that to calculate
>acceleartion based on the rpm changes.  The program is setup to record
>the data as a audio signal and then later process that audio signal on
>a computer to get the info out.
>

That'll teach me to read (more accurately "peruse") only a few posts on a
thread then post a follow-up...

Still, I'd have thought that doing this measurement in the "digital" domain
with a timer resolution of 500nS or better would produce better results than
in the audio domain with the associated noise and distortion etc.

After looking at the web page though I see the results look pretty good
though so things can't be that bad in audio-land. Neat.


--
 Mike



From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Fri Jan 29 17:27:54 1999
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:27:54 -0500
Subject: More DFI q's...
Message-ID: <mailman.33075.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



rauscher at icst.com wrote:
> 
> If I'm reading this correctly, it is somewhat being done. Not just well
> organized. In the DIY_EFI incoming and bin directories there are a
> bunch of BIN's from mostly OEM systems. I've placed the one from
> one of my vehicles there and Bruce has placed some of the ones he
> worked up there also.
> 
> For the record, I'm for it. I'll have no problem uploading my resulting
> BIN from my current project.
> 
> The biggest addition/advantage would be a better document describing
> the engine/tranny/accessory combo for that BIN.
> 
> BobR.

Bob - you are correct.  There are lots of bins in the incoming
directory.  Periodically I go thru, figure out what they are, add them
to the ftp site index list, and move them to the bins directory.  There
is also an section of the page for OEM systems and parts, currently GM
has a lot of info but there's not much for anything else.  Stuart's idea
is good, but I'd like to keep it all on the DIY_EFI server rather than
another.

--steve


From synchris at ricochet.net  Fri Jan 29 17:40:49 1999
From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:40:49 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33076.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


First let me say I'm really glad to hear about this. My possibly-vapor
lock problem came back yesterday (twas a bit warm), and since it mostly
seems to happen when the gas is real low (thus hotter), I had sometimes
wondered about a no-return fuel system. So I am definitely loving this.

I know Toyota uses the system in the 1ZZ-FE and claims lower evap
emissions as the reason, FWIW. Less vapor lock? I think it could go either
way depending, but a smallish amount of fuel being recirculated thru
a hot rail has got to get pretty warm.

I would think the pulsation damper would be even more critical, maybe
even something like a small pressurized resevoir would be needed? Does
anyone know if the actual no-return systems have some such thing?

I didn't see any actual part numbers or prices though. Do I have to
order these in GM-size lots? Eek.


At 08:47 AM 1/29/99 -0600, Roger Heflin wrote:

>Besides the physical conversion, you would need to add a input to the
>computer that mesaures the pressure from the transducer, and use that
>pressure to adjust the injector pulsewidths based on pressure.  So
>beyond physcially converting your would need significant computer
>adjustements (probably even computer hardware adjustments to get the
> ...

You could also manage this one with simple analog stuff. Get an
appropriate switching power supply or chip, and use it to drive the
fuel pump. Use the pressure transducer output to feed the power
supply reference input, such that it runs the pump more or less to
maintain the fuel pressure you want. Soooper easy.

You could even get Bruce's variable fuel pressure scheme with a tiny
bit more work. Add a reference voltage (from somewhere) representing
the desired fuel pressure. Put thru a comparator with the transducer
output. When the FP is too high, charge an integrator; when the FP
is too low, discharge it. Use the integrator output as reference
input to the power supply. (A bit of RC filtering may be needed too,
depending.)


Which reminds me, I have a simple circuit that I think will work ok
for the whole 555 EFI idea. (No 555's though, sorry.) But I have no
good way to get it to the world. Is there some freeware that'll let
me enter a simple schematic and end up with a .gif or something? I
suppose I could dig up a paint program if there's nothing else going.

   Chris C.



From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 18:13:48 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:13:48 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33077.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Conlon <synchris at ricochet.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:00 PM
Subject: RE: Love This

Send it snail mail to me and I can scan it.  If not too good, I'll get it
posted,
hehehehe..  Oh, OK I'll get it posted anyway, geeez
Bruce


snip
>Which reminds me, I have a simple circuit that I think will work ok
>for the whole 555 EFI idea. (No 555's though, sorry.) But I have no
>good way to get it to the world. Is there some freeware that'll let
>me enter a simple schematic and end up with a .gif or something? I
>suppose I could dig up a paint program if there's nothing else going.
>   Chris C.




From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Fri Jan 29 18:29:58 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David Cooley)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:29:58 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33078.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Chrysler uses a returnless system on the Neon and others...  There system
isn't anything special, it just has a standard FP regulator mounted to the
pump assembly in the tank and the "return" is just open to the inside of the
tank.  Basically they relocated the FP reg from the rail to the pump.
Later,
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Conlon <synchris at ricochet.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 12:52 PM
Subject: RE: Love This


>
>First let me say I'm really glad to hear about this. My possibly-vapor
>lock problem came back yesterday (twas a bit warm), and since it mostly
>seems to happen when the gas is real low (thus hotter), I had sometimes
>wondered about a no-return fuel system. So I am definitely loving this.
>
>I know Toyota uses the system in the 1ZZ-FE and claims lower evap
>emissions as the reason, FWIW. Less vapor lock? I think it could go either
>way depending, but a smallish amount of fuel being recirculated thru
>a hot rail has got to get pretty warm.
>
>I would think the pulsation damper would bee even more critical, maybe
>even something like a small pressurized resevoir would be needed? Does
>anyone know if the actual no-return systems have some such thing?
>
>I didn't see any actual part numbers or prices though. Do I have to
>order these in GM-size lots? Eek.
>
>
>At 08:47 AM 1/29/99 -0600, Roger Heflin wrote:
>
>>Besides the physical conversion, you would need to add a input to the
>>computer that mesaures the pressure from the transducer, and use that
>>pressure to adjust the injector pulsewidths based on pressure.  So
>>beyond physcially converting your would need significant computer
>>adjustements (probably even computer hardware adjustments to get the
>> ...
>
>You could also manage this one with simple analog stuff. Get an
>appropriate switching power supply or chip, and use it to drive the
>fuel pump. Use the pressure transducer output to feed the power
>supply reference input, such that it runs the pump more or less to
>maintain the fuel pressure you want. Soooper easy.
>
>You could even get Bruce's variable fuel pressure scheme with a tiny
>bit more work. Add a reference voltage (from somewhere) representing
>the desired fuel pressure. Put thru a comparator with the transducer
>output. When the FP is too high, charge an integrator; when the FP
>is too low, discharge it. Use the integrator output as reference
>input to the power supply. (A bit of RC filtering may be needed too,
>depending.)
>
>
>Which reminds me, I have a simple circuit that I think will work ok
>for the whole 555 EFI idea. (No 555's though, sorry.) But I have no
>good way to get it to the world. Is there some freeware that'll let
>me enter a simple schematic and end up with a .gif or something? I
>suppose I could dig up a paint program if there's nothing else going.
>
>   Chris C.
>
>




From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan 29 18:47:44 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:47:44 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33079.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Does anybody use a PWM fuel pressure regulator? Or know more about the
part referenced here?
http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/archive/archive_num_88;lines=6114-6151

 How about the aftermarket systems that come with tc/sc?   It just
seems funny to me to use mechanical regulators and vary pump speed,
instead of maintaining constant pump speed/volume and adjusting
regulated pressure.  It seems so simple, and no one does it, that
there must be a "catch".

Shannen
Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Weiler <james at brc.ubc.ca>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM
> Subject: RE: Love This
> 
> For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news".  It's being able to
> manipulate
> fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device.  As things sit now
> for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost.  With this
> device
> a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible,
> meaning
> big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse widths.
> Bruce
> 
> >Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of >a
> one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.
> >thanks
> >jw
> >



From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Fri Jan 29 19:13:45 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:13:45 -0500
Subject: Thermodynamics anybody???
Message-ID: <mailman.33080.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I just want to mention some experience I have had with water to air
intertcoolers......DO NOT use a radiator, the air blasting across the fins
makes them "walk" and break off in a short time and then go through your
engine.......You should use a sandwiched wafer style and you can make one
yourself(if you can weld or have a shop make one)...anyway my 2 cents
-Carl Summers



In a message dated 1/28/99 2:15:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
talltom at effectnet.com writes:

<< Subj:	 Thermodynamics anybody???
 Date:	1/28/99 2:15:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	talltom at effectnet.com (espace)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 
 My books are long gone, along with my brain,(pass the cone shaped hat) and
I'm curious
 if anybody here has done much work with intercooler design. I've got a 3
liter engine
 that I'm considering  building an intercooler system fer, and if anybody's
got any
 numbers about intercooler requirements I'd like to take a look. The way I see
it,
 I could use a heater core or a/c evaporator for the hot side, and some sort
of radiator
 on the cool side. I'm looking fer heat load caused by say 30psi intake
pressure at 7k
 rpm, and corrolating that to optimal collector and diffuser sizes.
   I've got a Audi radiator with a elec fan on it that would work for a
diffuser, but seems
 like overkill and is heavy, empty. They alos use an auxiliary radiator that's
about 50%
 bigger in area than a heater core(and a lot thinner) that would be ideal if
it's enough
 to do it.
 
   So allright guys, here's your chance to show off... prove me dumb...
 
 
 
  >>


From alaint at cgocable.ca  Fri Jan 29 19:21:17 1999
From: alaint at cgocable.ca (Alain Toussaint)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:21:17 -0500
Subject: computer in car
Message-ID: <mailman.33081.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello diy'ers,
	i found a great discussion on slashdot.org relating to crafting
computer to go in a car,lot of great info,here's the url:

go to http://slashdot.org/ ( http://www.slashdot.org/ work too)

click on the "Ask Slashdot: How do you build a PC for the car?" link

there you are,if you'd like to receive all the comment in one page,there
is a link for the flat mode.

Alain Toussaint
Drummondville
Quebec,Canada
alaint at cgocable.ca




From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 19:29:37 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:29:37 -0500
Subject: EFI Questions
Message-ID: <mailman.33082.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: dzorde <dzorde at geocities.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 3:23 AM
Subject: RE:EFI Questions


>Tried the plug cuts.  Looks nice and clean (no detonation) but I already
>know that its OK on avgas.  Plugs are a medium grey, with probably a slight
>browning of the ceramic tip (NGK BP6S plugs).  And yet the car is still
>running very rich (I think around 0.8-0.9V is rich).  So how does a plug
>look like its OK and yet all other indications are that its rich (got me
>puzzled) ?

Depending on the grayness, you might be running too much timing
too rich.  The gray is a sign of a sooty flame, meaning excess fuel,
running extra timing makes the motor seem like it's pulling better.
What for cooling temp ya running?.
Remember, I'm an ocean away and can't see you plugs, and just
trying to work off of what your reporting.
Bruce
>
>Dan     dzorde at soanar.com.au
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
>Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 12:29 PM
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Re: EFI questions
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: dzorde <dzorde at geocities.com>
>To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:15 PM
>Subject: EFI questions
>
>When in doubt read the spark plugs.  AV can look lean, but the signs of
>detonation are always present, from what I've seen.  Now, I'll fully admit,
>it's been years since doing much AV gas reading.  Try a load of good
>racing gas if you have trouble reading the AV stuff.  And I've got zero
>time reading australian AV Gas.
>  Pipe coloring is dead in my book.
>Bruce
>
>



From AL8001 at aol.com  Fri Jan 29 19:47:33 1999
From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:47:33 -0500
Subject: Anyone trigger a electronic IG module with points?
Message-ID: <mailman.33083.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi all, I have some old tractors/trucks and such that I would like to convert
to electronic IG.  Mostly because since they are limited use, the plugs tend
to carbon foul.

I would like to keep the points intact and just wire up the module and
realated parts. I could convert the dist to a pick up coil and such but would
rather not.

I'm thinking of a high ohm resistor from 12 V to the points.  Then tap the +
pickup coil input on the IG module to the points.  I would rather use somthing
common like a GM 4 pin/ Chrysler 5 pin/ or a Ford Duraspark.  The Ford 3 pin
dist mounted TFI looks good as well.


Thanks for the help.


From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 29 21:01:26 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:01:26 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.33084.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>The Honda Part Number 36531-P07-003 used in the 92-95 VTEC
>Civics are 5 wire.  There are seven pins in the connector, 2 being
>for a "calibration" resistor.
>  Where is the error here?.
>Bruce

Do not believe there is one, Bruce.

Regards, Greg
>
>The LAF Sensor currently is used only on the lean burn Civic which
>were:
>92-95 VX
>96-98 HX
>All LAF sensors are 7 wire.




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 29 21:01:27 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:01:27 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33085.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: James Weiler <james at brc.ubc.ca>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM
>Subject: RE: Love This
>
>For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news".  It's being able to
>manipulate
>fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device.  As things sit now
>for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost.  With this
>device
>a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible,
>meaning
>big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse widths.
>Bruce

Hey--if you wanna do it right--use a rising rate regulator IN COMBINATION
with a pwm voltage control to the fuel pump AND a calculated fuel pressure
correction to the injector pw calc. It would hafta be a primary--secondary
fuel pressure control loop to be stable--program what the fuel pump is
supposed to do according to load/rpm ()with a look-up table), let the
rising rate regulator fine tune the rail pressure (it would be A LOT more
accurate cuzza bypass flow rate being nearly constant), AND also use your
rail pressure input to apply a calculated correction to the injector pw on
the fly. Doing these things in combo would prolly improve the accuracy of
the fuel quantity delivered to the engine by at least 2 or 3%, particularly
under transient conditions!!

Also, you will NOT lose the DISTINCT ADVANTAGE of having some fuel
recirculating through the rails--to keep them cooler--this way. Methinks
that the GM comments about less emissions have only to do with keeping the
fuel TANK cooler and keeping the evaporative problem smaller by doing so.
If you get vapor in the rails--it has to either go through the injectors or
back to the tank--no where else it COULD go. And--IMHO--if it goes thru the
injectors, it will give you a lean episode, and a stumble at best, or, more
likely, a detonation episode. Fact is--I believe in putting a float vent at
the high point of the fuel rail plumbing, so as to be SURE that all vapor
goes back to the tank, and NOT into the injectors.

Regards, Greg
>
>
>>Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of >a
>one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.
>>thanks
>>jw
>>




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 29 21:01:30 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:01:30 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33086.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Does anybody use a PWM fuel pressure regulator? Or know more about the
>part referenced here?
>http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/archive/archive_num_88;lines=6114-6151
>
> How about the aftermarket systems that come with tc/sc?   It just
>seems funny to me to use mechanical regulators and vary pump speed,
>instead of maintaining constant pump speed/volume and adjusting
>regulated pressure.  It seems so simple, and no one does it, that
>there must be a "catch".
>
>Shannen

By now you prolly read my post on the subject. If you're doing nothing
else, put a #$%ing float vent on the high point of the rails. This will
cure vapor in the rails INSTANTLY!! And pump control in combo with a good
PR WILL give more accurate control. Variable pumping WILL work alone, but
not as well as in combo with a regulator (set up with pri/sec control). But
if you are doing variable pumping alone, for $#% sakes, use a float vent on
the rails, so as to get the #$#% bubbles back to the tank!!!

Regards, Greg


>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: James Weiler <james at brc.ubc.ca>
>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM
>> Subject: RE: Love This
>>
>> For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news".  It's being able to
>> manipulate
>> fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device.  As things sit now
>> for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost.  With this
>> device
>> a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible,
>> meaning
>> big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse widths.
>> Bruce
>>
>> >Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of >a
>> one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.
>> >thanks
>> >jw
>> >




From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 29 21:01:32 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:01:32 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33087.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>>
>I know Toyota uses the system in the 1ZZ-FE and claims lower evap
>emissions as the reason, FWIW. Less vapor lock?

DO NOT let mfgr BS about less evap emissions get confused with getting the
vapor bubbles out of the fuel rails!!!

Greg

I think it could go either
>way depending, but a smallish amount of fuel being recirculated thru
>a hot rail has got to get pretty warm.
>




From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 21:33:58 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:33:58 -0500
Subject: Anyone trigger a electronic IG module with points?
Message-ID: <mailman.33088.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: AL8001 at aol.com <AL8001 at aol.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 3:00 PM
Subject: Anyone trigger a electronic IG module with points?

Points need enough current thru them to "burn" the oxidation off.
Hence, better off to use hall effect or optical replacements for the
points. IMHO
Bruce


>Hi all, I have some old tractors/trucks and such that I would like to
convert
>to electronic IG.  Mostly because since they are limited use, the plugs
tend
>to carbon foul.
>
>I would like to keep the points intact and just wire up the module and
>realated parts. I could convert the dist to a pick up coil and such but
would
>rather not.
>
>I'm thinking of a high ohm resistor from 12 V to the points.  Then tap the
+
>pickup coil input on the IG module to the points.  I would rather use
somthing
>common like a GM 4 pin/ Chrysler 5 pin/ or a Ford Duraspark.  The Ford 3
pin
>dist mounted TFI looks good as well.
>
>
>Thanks for the help.
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Fri Jan 29 21:35:08 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:35:08 -0500
Subject: Anyone trigger a electronic IG module with points?
Message-ID: <mailman.33089.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hi all, I have some old tractors/trucks and such that I would like to convert
>to electronic IG.  Mostly because since they are limited use, the plugs tend
>to carbon foul.
>
>I would like to keep the points intact and just wire up the module and
>realated parts. I could convert the dist to a pick up coil and such but would
>rather not.
>
>I'm thinking of a high ohm resistor from 12 V to the points.  Then tap the +
>pickup coil input on the IG module to the points.  I would rather use somthing
>common like a GM 4 pin/ Chrysler 5 pin/ or a Ford Duraspark.  The Ford 3 pin
>dist mounted TFI looks good as well.
>
>
>Thanks for the help.

Years ago, Delta Products, from Grand Junction, CO , used to make a CD
ignition box--available either assembled or in kit form--- that used the
points for a trigger. One of the tricks was that you had to keep the
current thru the points high enough to keep them clean. With you resistor
approach, that would not be the case. Dunno whatever happened to Delta, or
if there is anything like their system around now. It was a fine ignition.
It even had a switch so you could go back to standard points ignition if
the electronics screwed up somewhere "inconvenient".

Regards, Greg




From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Fri Jan 29 21:36:29 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:36:29 -0500
Subject: New Turbo from Garrett
Message-ID: <mailman.33090.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Clarence Wood wrote:

> adaptable to anything. It offers 'supercharger-like low end response and 
> excellent packaging'. The drive motor is about half the size of the 
> exhaust-driven turbine and is direct-coupled to the impeller. They also 
> are working on a 'dry' tirbo using air bearings."
> 
Sounds a bit like the Merceded Benz 600 series V-12 blower drive from WW2




From rah at horizon.hit.net  Fri Jan 29 21:48:53 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:48:53 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33091.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Mike wrote:

> >
> >That is mostly what the home dyno kit does.   You collect the
> >information off of a spark plug, and then use that to calculate
> >acceleartion based on the rpm changes.  The program is setup to record
> >the data as a audio signal and then later process that audio signal on
> >a computer to get the info out.
> >
> 
> That'll teach me to read (more accurately "peruse") only a few posts on a
> thread then post a follow-up...
> 
> Still, I'd have thought that doing this measurement in the "digital" domain
> with a timer resolution of 500nS or better would produce better results than
> in the audio domain with the associated noise and distortion etc.
> 
> After looking at the web page though I see the results look pretty good
> though so things can't be that bad in audio-land. Neat.
> 
> 

I would guess that the trigger point or the center of a given spark
(measured in the audio-domain) is probably centered pretty
consistantly at the same point, and since you don't have to do things
real time you can take some time to analyze and determine exactly were
each pulse was centered.  And even if they varied a  bit, the average
should be pretty good.  I did some quick calcs, and 3000 rpm the pulse
spacing is 20 ms, and 3025 rpm is 19.83 ms (DIS), so if you have .1 ms
resolution you would be able to get better than 25 rpm accuracy at
this point.   And ao long as you have enough bandwidth to be able to
determine each pulse you should be able to do it.  My guess is that a
basic cheap take recorder should give you enough data to do the job.
A 6000 rpm pulse is 100 pps (DIS) or 50 pps (fire every other rpm), so
to get accurate and distinct centers you would not require that much
bandwidth (ie 1-2khz looks to be adequate)

				Roger



From wsherwin at idirect.com  Fri Jan 29 22:02:51 1999
From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:02:51 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33092.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hey Greg, don't burst a bubble......... :)  !

Missouri-Rola came through, a copy is in the mail.

Walt.



-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Love This


>>Does anybody use a PWM fuel pressure regulator? Or know more about the
>>part referenced here?
>>http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/archive/archive_num_88;lines=6114
-6151
>>
>> How about the aftermarket systems that come with tc/sc?   It just
>>seems funny to me to use mechanical regulators and vary pump speed,
>>instead of maintaining constant pump speed/volume and adjusting
>>regulated pressure.  It seems so simple, and no one does it, that
>>there must be a "catch".
>>
>>Shannen
>
>By now you prolly read my post on the subject. If you're doing nothing
>else, put a #$%ing float vent on the high point of the rails. This will
>cure vapor in the rails INSTANTLY!! And pump control in combo with a good
>PR WILL give more accurate control. Variable pumping WILL work alone, but
>not as well as in combo with a regulator (set up with pri/sec control). But
>if you are doing variable pumping alone, for $#% sakes, use a float vent on
>the rails, so as to get the #$#% bubbles back to the tank!!!
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>
>>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: James Weiler <james at brc.ubc.ca>
>>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
<diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>>> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM
>>> Subject: RE: Love This
>>>
>>> For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news".  It's being able to
>>> manipulate
>>> fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device.  As things sit
now
>>> for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost.  With this
>>> device
>>> a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible,
>>> meaning
>>> big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse
widths.
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> >Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of
>a
>>> one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.
>>> >thanks
>>> >jw
>>> >
>
>



From Tedscj at aol.com  Fri Jan 29 22:10:27 1999
From: Tedscj at aol.com (Tedscj at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:10:27 -0500
Subject: replace an EPROM with an EEPROM?
Message-ID: <mailman.33093.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Has anyone tried to replace an Eprom with and EEprom?
Specifically, Replace the 27c256 in a Memcal with a 28256?
Does anyone know if it would work?  or is the pinout somehow different?
The reason I'm interested in doing this is because it would be more economical
and efficient.

Also, what do people do about removing and replacing their Eproms from the
Memcals when reprogramming them?  Do you solder in ZIF sockets?

I want to start lookin at and modifying my Memcal, but have never done any of
this stuff before.

Thanks,
Ted


From nacelp at bright.net  Fri Jan 29 22:16:12 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:16:12 -0500
Subject: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap   ECM'sa smokin
Message-ID: <mailman.33094.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Todays' lesson so far is
series/parrarel injectors don't work, ie 2 groups (of 8 injectors) in
  series, and the slow injector openings don't happen.  Where a 
  stock setup will fire injectors to less than 1 msec.  the series/
  par, sign off at about 2.1
The intake air temp., correction makes little difference at idle,
  but at higher rpm makes a huge difference.
The above information is specific to a gm 1227730 using a AUJP
calibration.
More to follow
Cheers
Bruce



From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Fri Jan 29 22:25:42 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:25:42 -0500
Subject: Memcal's
Message-ID: <mailman.33095.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi People,
      While we're on the memcal subject....I am in need of approx 30 blue
memcal covers....(I had some meet an unfortunate death) Does anyone know where
to buy these or does anyone have some to sell??????Thanks,
-Carl Summers


From rah at horizon.hit.net  Fri Jan 29 22:27:13 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:27:13 -0500
Subject: replace an EPROM with an EEPROM?
Message-ID: <mailman.33096.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 Tedscj at aol.com wrote:

> Has anyone tried to replace an Eprom with and EEprom?
> Specifically, Replace the 27c256 in a Memcal with a 28256?
> Does anyone know if it would work?  or is the pinout somehow different?
> The reason I'm interested in doing this is because it would be more economical
> and efficient.
>

I would be interested in this answer.    That would accelerate the
erasing and reprogramming cycle quite a bit.
 
> Also, what do people do about removing and replacing their Eproms from the
> Memcals when reprogramming them?  Do you solder in ZIF sockets?
> 

Get a IDC wire wrap socket, and modify it with a dremel type tool, (it
is already the correct width and spacing to plug a memcal into, the
slots are wrong though, and it won't be long enough) and modify it to
allow you to plug the memcal in.   Bend the wire wrap socket's legs
enough to plug it into the programmer, and then just leave it there
and plug the memcal into it.   You will only have about 1/2 of the
memcal plugged into the IDC socket and the rest will be unconnected,
but nothing left is part of the prom.  YOu will need to figure the
correct way to plug it in (both the socket into the programmer and the
memcal into the socket) I have done then and used it to read out my
memcals, to do the erasing you would have to take off the top of the
memcal, and the window cover and put the whole thing in the eraser.


> I want to start lookin at and modifying my Memcal, but have never done any of
> this stuff before.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ted
>



From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Fri Jan 29 22:33:48 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:33:48 -0500
Subject: Anyone trigger a electronic IG module with points?
Message-ID: <mailman.33097.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce Plecan wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AL8001 at aol.com <AL8001 at aol.com>
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 3:00 PM
> Subject: Anyone trigger a electronic IG module with points?
> 
> Points need enough current thru them to "burn" the oxidation off.
> Hence, better off to use hall effect or optical replacements for the
> points. IMHO
> Bruce
> 
> >Hi all, I have some old tractors/trucks and such that I would like to
> convert
> >to electronic IG.  Mostly because since they are limited use, the plugs
> tend
> >to carbon foul.
> >
> >I would like to keep the points intact and just wire up the module and
> >realated parts. I could convert the dist to a pick up coil and such but
> would
> >rather not.
> >
> >I'm thinking of a high ohm resistor from 12 V to the points.  Then tap the
> +
> >pickup coil input on the IG module to the points.  I would rather use
> somthing
> >common like a GM 4 pin/ Chrysler 5 pin/ or a Ford Duraspark.  The Ford 3
> pin
> >dist mounted TFI looks good as well.
> >
> >
> >Thanks for the help.
> >
Point triggered electronic ignition has been around for a dog's age. Mid
- late seventies Toyota did it for several years. Worked great. Use a
hall effect module and the points will do the job just fine.


From mitcho at netcom.com  Fri Jan 29 22:45:39 1999
From: mitcho at netcom.com (Mitch)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:45:39 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33098.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 12:59 PM 1/28/99 -0700, Greg Hermann wrote:
>
>OK --this is what I was talking about--does anybody know what you gotta do
>to "register" a copyright??
>
>I freely admit to being WAY out of date on this, but it would seem that
>they cannot sue you over it if they have not registered it.

Nonsense.  If they can prove they originated it, and that you stole it (for
that is what is being advocated here), your ass is grass.  Assuming they care.

Mitch

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitch Barrie's Chevelles:  http://www.employees.org/~ozyman/carstuff
Southern California Chevelle Caminos: http://www.chevelles.net/scccc



From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Jan 29 23:08:58 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:08:58 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33099.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Greg Hermann wrote:
> 
> >Does anybody use a PWM fuel pressure regulator? Or know more about the
> >part referenced here?
> >http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/archive/archive_num_88;lines=6114-6151
> >
> > How about the aftermarket systems that come with tc/sc?   It just
> >seems funny to me to use mechanical regulators and vary pump speed,
> >instead of maintaining constant pump speed/volume and adjusting
> >regulated pressure.  It seems so simple, and no one does it, that
> >there must be a "catch".
> >
> >Shannen
> 
> By now you prolly read my post on the subject. If you're doing nothing
> else, put a #$%ing float vent on the high point of the rails. This will
> cure vapor in the rails INSTANTLY!! And pump control in combo with a good
> PR WILL give more accurate control. Variable pumping WILL work alone, but
> not as well as in combo with a regulator (set up with pri/sec control). But
> if you are doing variable pumping alone, for $#% sakes, use a float vent on
> the rails, so as to get the #$#% bubbles back to the tank!!!
> 
> Regards, Greg
I don't disagree.  Besides, doing so might bring about another
symbolic reply. ; ) 

I just wondered why I haven't seen any electronic pressure regulators
under PW control.  Automotive fuel pumps seem like a great place for
variables to accumulate, machined solenoids seem more accurate.  If
fuel injectors can be made, something similar should be possible as an
inline valve.  So why make circuits to control high current pump
rather than inline valve?  
shannen



From clarencewood at centuryinter.net  Fri Jan 29 23:17:52 1999
From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:17:52 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33100.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks Greg!  I think you have put your finger on a problem that I have been having.  Please elaborate on the float vent; on what junk cars can I remove one and where do I look for it on the car?

At 02:01 PM 1/29/99 -0700, Greg wrote:
(snip)
>But
>if you are doing variable pumping alone, for $#% sakes, use a float vent on
>the rails, so as to get the #$#% bubbles back to the tank!!!
>
>Regards, Greg
>
>
>>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: James Weiler <james at brc.ubc.ca>
>>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>>> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM
>>> Subject: RE: Love This
>>>
>>> For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news".  It's being able to
>>> manipulate
>>> fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device.  As things sit now
>>> for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost.  With this
>>> device
>>> a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible,
>>> meaning
>>> big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse widths.
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> >Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of >a
>>> one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.
>>> >thanks
>>> >jw
>>> >
>
>
>


From dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us  Fri Jan 29 23:31:58 1999
From: dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us (David Sagers)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:31:58 -0500
Subject: Different Strokes
Message-ID: <mailman.33101.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I'm building a twin turbo small block chevy for a 1981 Corvette, auto trans and all the power accessories.  It'll be used for a hotrod street car, primarily on weekends and sunny days.

In a conversation with the machine shop this afternoon the engine builder said I should consider going with a shorter stroke.  I can build a 4" stroke 434 ci, a 3.75" 406 ci, or a 3.48" stroke 355 ci engine.  The block I have is already clearanced for the 4" stroke so the additional cost of preparing the block isn't a factor.   I already own the 4" crank and rods, and the crank can be traded out for a shorter stroke without any additional cost.

The builder said that a short stroke engine will respond better to a turbo as it'll rev faster.  So I'm looking for someone with knowledge and experience with turbo engines.   Do I go with the shorter stoke that'll rev faster, or go with the 4" stroke that makes a lot of torque, especially in the low RPM ranges.  Low RPM torque seems to be important as this is going to be a street engine generally run in the lower RPM ranges.

Some of the things I want from the engine are throttle response and low rpm power.  I was hoping that by going with the big 434 ci engine I could over come some of the slow acceleration associated with turbo lag in small engines.



From jwallace at nist.gov  Sat Jan 30 00:04:25 1999
From: jwallace at nist.gov (Jay Wallace)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:04:25 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33102.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 07:06 PM 1/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>> At 08:24 AM 1/28/99 -0500, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:
>>
>>> >level ground.  At least were I live, level stretches of road where
>>> >you can get up to speed are rare.  If they incorporated the data
>>> >from a G-field measuring device, like an Analog Digital ADXL05,
>>> >you could calculate horsepower even if the road was not level.
>>


About 6 - 8 years ago (?) in Road & Track there was a Tech Tidbit
(or some such) article about accelerometers / stopwatch / coastdown
to determine rolling and wind resistance and horsepower. Does
anybody have the reference?

TIA,
Jay


From jamesm at talarian.com  Sat Jan 30 00:21:17 1999
From: jamesm at talarian.com (James Montebello)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:21:17 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33103.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> I just wondered why I haven't seen any electronic pressure regulators
> under PW control.  Automotive fuel pumps seem like a great place for
> variables to accumulate, machined solenoids seem more accurate.  If
> fuel injectors can be made, something similar should be possible as an
> inline valve.  So why make circuits to control high current pump
> rather than inline valve?  

They have been.  The Bosch CIS with Lambda system used a plain-jane
injector has an electronically controllable inline pressure regulator.
Used in several European cars in the 80s (VW, Porsche, and Volvo, to
name three). 

On the subject of dynamic fuel pressure regulators, the Digifant system 
used by VW in the late 80s had a vacuum-controlled pressure regulator 
that was simply plumbed directly to the intake manifold.  I suppose it 
would be possible to have this do most load compensation, and only vary 
PW by temperature and switches for fully-closed and fully-open throttle.  
Dunno if Digifant did this or not, but it sounds like just the kind of
thing the Germans would do.

james montebello


From mpitts at netspeak.com  Sat Jan 30 00:32:53 1999
From: mpitts at netspeak.com (Mike Pitts)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:32:53 -0500
Subject: Different Strokes
Message-ID: <mailman.33104.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

<<The builder said that a short stroke engine will respond 
better to a turbo as it'll rev faster.>>

Maybe he's not familiar with turbocharged street cars?

In my experience, turbocharged engines do not require alot 
of RPM to build exceptional power.  I never take my V6 past 
5500 RPM, yet I've run 11.38 @ 122.7. And that's just a measly 
little ole 3.8L engine in a full weight Buick with t-tops.  

You might want to chat with Harry Hruska at Precision Turbo 
and Engine in Indiana (219) 996-7832.  They have already 
built at least one twin turbo V8 vette which runs VERY fast!  

What are you planning to use for fuel?  EFI I hope. :)

-Mike


From ballengerj at sprynet.com  Sat Jan 30 00:52:53 1999
From: ballengerj at sprynet.com (James Ballenger)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:52:53 -0500
Subject: Different Strokes
Message-ID: <mailman.33105.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



David Sagers wrote:

> The builder said that a short stroke engine will respond better to a turbo as it'll rev faster.  So I'm looking for someone with knowledge and experience with turbo engines.   Do I go with the shorter stoke that'll rev faster, or go with the 4" stroke that makes a lot of torque, especially in the low RPM ranges.  Low RPM torque seems to be important as this is going to be a street engine generally run in the lower RPM ranges.

I've thought about a twin turbo Poncho 400 ;^)  How high do you need to rev to get full boost?  The smaller stroke responding better would make sense.  With enough boost, you could get plenty of torque and good hp.  How high are you going to rev this engine?

James Ballenger




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 30 01:07:29 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:07:29 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33106.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Hey Greg, don't burst a bubble......... :)  !
>
>Missouri-Rola came through, a copy is in the mail.
>
>Walt.
>
Well--I prolly oughtta quit using the top row characters so much, or I
might pop something!!

And Thanks!!

Regards, Greg




From dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us  Sat Jan 30 01:11:41 1999
From: dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us (David Sagers)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:11:41 -0500
Subject: Different Strokes
Message-ID: <mailman.33107.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Thanks for the lead on Precision Turbo.  As for fuel, yes it'll be EFI.

>>> Mike Pitts <mpitts at netspeak.com> 01/29 5:32 PM >>>
<<The builder said that a short stroke engine will respond 
better to a turbo as it'll rev faster.>>

Maybe he's not familiar with turbocharged street cars?

In my experience, turbocharged engines do not require alot 
of RPM to build exceptional power.  I never take my V6 past 
5500 RPM, yet I've run 11.38 @ 122.7. And that's just a measly 
little ole 3.8L engine in a full weight Buick with t-tops.  

You might want to chat with Harry Hruska at Precision Turbo 
and Engine in Indiana (219) 996-7832.  They have already 
built at least one twin turbo V8 vette which runs VERY fast!  

What are you planning to use for fuel?  EFI I hope. :)

-Mike



From mikem at southern.co.nz  Sat Jan 30 01:39:05 1999
From: mikem at southern.co.nz (Mike Morrin)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:39:05 -0500
Subject: Anyone trigger a electronic IG module with points?
Message-ID: <mailman.33108.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 02:46 pm 29/01/99 EST, AL8001 at aol.com wrote:
>I would like to keep the points intact and just wire up the module and
>realated parts. I could convert the dist to a pick up coil and such but would
>rather not.
>
>I'm thinking of a high ohm resistor from 12 V to the points.  Then tap the +
>pickup coil input on the IG module to the points.  I would rather use
somthing
>common like a GM 4 pin/ Chrysler 5 pin/ or a Ford Duraspark.  The Ford 3 pin
>dist mounted TFI looks good as well.

If the ignition module uses the MC3334 chip, then it wont work properly
with a digital (points) input, as the dwell compensation relies on a
floating DC path through the pick-up coil.

If you are using a standard coil and ballast resistor, it should be OK, but
you wont get HEI.

regards,

Mike




From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Sat Jan 30 01:44:32 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:44:32 -0500
Subject: Different Strokes
Message-ID: <mailman.33109.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi David,
       It has been my experience that it does take less time for the engine to
accelerate with a shorter stroke,,,but like you said the larger cu in will
give more streetable torque and that would probably be the trade off I would
take if I already had the parts as you do.....The biggest downfall of the 4"
arm is the fact that you have very little(if any...was this 350 mains or 400?)
journal overlap and if you are planning to make alot of hp(1000+) and/or
rpm,,expect this crank to crack probably after 30 1/4 mile blasts.....just
some experience....hth's
-Carl Summers


In a message dated 1/29/99 3:34:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, dsagers at ci.west-
valley.ut.us writes:

<< Subj:	 Different Strokes
 Date:	1/29/99 3:34:37 PM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	dsagers at ci.west-valley.ut.us (David Sagers)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 I'm building a twin turbo small block chevy for a 1981 Corvette, auto trans
and all the power accessories.  It'll be used for a hotrod street car,
primarily on weekends and sunny days.
 
 In a conversation with the machine shop this afternoon the engine builder
said I should consider going with a shorter stroke.  I can build a 4" stroke
434 ci, a 3.75" 406 ci, or a 3.48" stroke 355 ci engine.  The block I have is
already clearanced for the 4" stroke so the additional cost of preparing the
block isn't a factor.   I already own the 4" crank and rods, and the crank can
be traded out for a shorter stroke without any additional cost.
 
 The builder said that a short stroke engine will respond better to a turbo as
it'll rev faster.  So I'm looking for someone with knowledge and experience
with turbo engines.   Do I go with the shorter stoke that'll rev faster, or go
with the 4" stroke that makes a lot of torque, especially in the low RPM
ranges.  Low RPM torque seems to be important as this is going to be a street
engine generally run in the lower RPM ranges.
 
 Some of the things I want from the engine are throttle response and low rpm
power.  I was hoping that by going with the big 434 ci engine I could over
come some of the slow acceleration associated with turbo lag in small engines.
 
 
  >>


From thergen at svn.net  Sat Jan 30 01:47:55 1999
From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:47:55 -0500
Subject: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap   ECM'sa smokin
Message-ID: <mailman.33110.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bruce,

How are you measuring injector opening time?  Change in current?

Thanks for the info.

Tom

On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> Todays' lesson so far is
> series/parrarel injectors don't work, ie 2 groups (of 8 injectors) in
>   series, and the slow injector openings don't happen.  Where a 
>   stock setup will fire injectors to less than 1 msec.  the series/
>   par, sign off at about 2.1
> The intake air temp., correction makes little difference at idle,
>   but at higher rpm makes a huge difference.
> The above information is specific to a gm 1227730 using a AUJP
> calibration.
> More to follow
> Cheers
> Bruce
> 



From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jan 30 01:55:22 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:55:22 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33111.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>> (snip)
> >Do any of the software oriented folks out there know what material you have
> >to submit to complete a copyright on software???? Or does anybody even
> >bother cuz of the development cycle being so short????
> >
> 
>   When writing windows programs, in the 'Help' menu box, the copyright and 'c' in a circle is present with date and author.  I have not really dug into this in depth but I believe that this procedure> Clarence
>
Borland Inprise, does this, undocumented key combinations have been 
known to bring up a picture of one of the orginal developers of 
Delphi.
alex   


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 30 02:04:25 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:04:25 -0500
Subject: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap   ECM'sa smokin
Message-ID: <mailman.33112.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: thergen at svn.net <thergen at svn.net>
To: DIY_EFI <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap ECM'sa smokin

Diacom
Bruce


>How are you measuring injector opening time?  Change in current?
>Thanks for the info.
>Tom

> Todays' lesson so far is
>> series/parrarel injectors don't work, ie 2 groups (of 8 injectors) in
>>   series, and the slow injector openings don't happen.  Where a 
>>   stock setup will fire injectors to less than 1 msec.  the series/
>>   par, sign off at about 2.1
>> The intake air temp., correction makes little difference at idle,
>>   but at higher rpm makes a huge difference.
>> The above information is specific to a gm 1227730 using a AUJP
>> calibration.
>> More to follow
>> Cheers
>> Bruce
>> 
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 30 02:04:33 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:04:33 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33113.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>At 12:59 PM 1/28/99 -0700, Greg Hermann wrote:
>>
>>OK --this is what I was talking about--does anybody know what you gotta do
>>to "register" a copyright??
>>
>>I freely admit to being WAY out of date on this, but it would seem that
>>they cannot sue you over it if they have not registered it.
>
>Nonsense.  If they can prove they originated it, and that you stole it (for
>that is what is being advocated here), your ass is grass.  Assuming they care.

Nope--read the book---Clarence posted the relevant language----in order to
initiate a legal action for copyright infringement, they HAVE to have
registered the copyright. They will NOT register it, because then all (or
more than they want) of their source code would have to put into the public
record, for all (Go BRUCE) to see and study. They want not to do that badly
enough that they will not be suing anybody over using/selling/playing with
the stuff anytime soon.

Their lawyers are not stupid--if they sued you without having registered
the copyright on it, and you had anything approaching a decent lawyer,
their action would be dimissed for something along the lines of "failure to
state a claim for which relief can be granted" before the fool thing ever
got started. And, by statute, in most places, they can be held liable to
pay YOUR legal fees when something is dismissed that way--so don't be shy
about hiring a GOOD lawyer if it ever happens!

To make a long story short---- I'm not too worried!!

Regards, Greg
>
>Mitch
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Mitch Barrie's Chevelles:  http://www.employees.org/~ozyman/carstuff
>Southern California Chevelle Caminos: http://www.chevelles.net/scccc




From Chill4 at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jan 30 02:11:08 1999
From: Chill4 at ix.netcom.com (Chill4 at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:11:08 -0500
Subject: Different Strokes
Message-ID: <mailman.33114.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On 01/29/99 16:34:36 you wrote:
>
>I'm building a twin turbo small block chevy for a 1981 Corvette, auto trans 
>and all the power accessories..... 
>In a conversation with the machine shop this afternoon the engine builder 
>said I should consider going with a shorter stroke.  I can build a 4" 
>stroke 434 ci, a 3.75" 406 ci, or a 3.48" stroke 355 ci engine.....  
>The builder said that a short stroke engine will respond better to a turbo 
>as it'll rev faster.....  
>Low RPM torque seems to be important as this is going to be a street engine 
>generally run in the lower RPM ranges.

To keep this as short as possible I'll start by saying that for the reasons 
you were given (quicker revving, will work better with a turbo?) I 
completely disagree with your builder. Torque is king on the street and 
there will be a huge difference between a big engine and a smaller one in 
the lower rpm's. Now, I personally don't recommend the 41/8" bore engine for 
other reasons, and since you said you can build either a 434(4.155x4.00), 
406(4.155x3.750), or a 355(4.030x3.480), if that is the case you should have 
two blocks a 4" & a 4&1/8", I personally would consider an engine based on 
the 4" block. Anyway given the same size turbocharger, a larger engine will 
see much less turbo lag, and provide more bottom end torque, and once the 
boost comes in you'll be amazed at how fast the engine revs. However if you 
size the hot sides correctly even the smaller engine can get similar boost 
response (you can virtually have boost start when you want it to), but since 
you said you already have the crank and rods build the big engine and I 
think you'll be very happy with the performance. By the way I have a TT 355 
SBC and have no problem with boost response or turbo lag at all. I will be 
switching over to a single turbo (class rules) and I will size my torque 
converter and the turbine side to make sure I have proper spool up and 
response. I can help with turbo sizing for virtually any vehicle as I have 
experience in this area and I am also a distributor for turbochargers and 
other performance items for a few major manufacturers, if you or anyone else 
is looking for a good deal on some turbochargers or need more assistance on 
sizing or anything else email me directly.

Chris
Advanced Performance
Chill4 at ix.netcom.com



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan 30 02:27:18 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:27:18 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33115.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Jay Wallace wrote:

> At 07:06 PM 1/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >>
> >>> At 08:24 AM 1/28/99 -0500, Dan Llewellyn2 wrote:
> >>
> >>> >level ground.  At least were I live, level stretches of road where
> >>> >you can get up to speed are rare.  If they incorporated the data
> >>> >from a G-field measuring device, like an Analog Digital ADXL05,
> >>> >you could calculate horsepower even if the road was not level.
> >>
> 
> 
> About 6 - 8 years ago (?) in Road & Track there was a Tech Tidbit
> (or some such) article about accelerometers / stopwatch / coastdown
> to determine rolling and wind resistance and horsepower. Does
> anybody have the reference?
> 
No, but it is pretty easy to do.

Get the car to 65, and time how long it takes to get down to 55 in
neutral.  Given the car weight, you know how much energy was in the
car a 65, and you know how much energy is in the car at 55.  Subtract
those, and divide by the number of seconds.  here is the equations:

	energy = 1/2 * (( mph / 3600) *1609 ) ^ 2 * ( mass / 2.2 )
		 
So with a 3000 lb vehicle that takes 10 seconds in neutral we have:

	energy at 65 = 575 * ( 10 ^ 3)
	energy at 55 = 412 * ( 10 ^ 3)
	
	change in energy is: 163 (KW)

	change in energy per second: 16.3 KW
	
	1hp = 746 watts, so hp is 16.3 / 746 = 21.84 hp.

So,

	21.84 hp is required to overcome wind/friction at about 60mph.

			Roger

	



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan 30 02:35:48 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:35:48 -0500
Subject: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap   ECM'sa smokin
Message-ID: <mailman.33116.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote:

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thergen at svn.net <thergen at svn.net>
> To: DIY_EFI <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap ECM'sa smokin
> 
> Diacom
> Bruce
> 
> 
> >How are you measuring injector opening time?  Change in current?
> >Thanks for the info.
> >Tom
> 

How are you measuring it with diacom?  Are you lowering the opening
time until they don't open anymore?   

			Roger



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 30 02:39:34 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:39:34 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33117.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Thanks Greg!  I think you have put your finger on a problem that I have
>been having.  Please elaborate on the float vent; on what junk cars can I
>remove one and where do I look for it on the car?

I dunno of any cars that have used one!!! :-)

Basically all it is is like the float bowl of a carb working in
reverse--the float chamber would be connected to the high point of the fuel
rails--when the float chamber is full of liquid fuel, the float rises, and
closes a needle valve. The outlet side of the needle valve is connected to
your vent line back to the tank. If enough vapor collects for the float to
drop, the needle valve opens, and the vapor goes bye bye into the vent
system.

There are lots of float vents out there for various industrial piping
systems, but most weigh about 20 pounds, min.

There are tiny little ones out there, made out of sheet metal, for domestic
hot water heating systems, which would not take the fuel pressure--general
environmental/vibration conditions under the hood at all.

I have found one, made by Honeywell, which is rated 150psi, 250 degrees F,
which is OK as to  bulk/weight, and they rate it as OK for
water/glycol/petroleum based heat transfer fluids, so I think it MIGHT be
OK for use in an automotive fuel system. Have not tried it out yet--and I
would be pretty sure that Honeywell would have a whole litter of kittens if
they found out their product was being used that way, so I am a little
reluctant to state the part # of it. But that should not stop anybody from
getting hold of a Honeywell "Tradeline" catalogue at a local HVAC /controls
wholesaler and figuring out which part it is!!

Been thinking about asking somebody that makes quality fuel system
stuff--mebbe Barry Grant-- if they would be interested in making them
specifically for our intended use. Prolly would have to go through a bunch
of BS to show them why it's a needed part--and that would be a real PITA.

Regards, Greg
>
>At 02:01 PM 1/29/99 -0700, Greg wrote:
>(snip)
>>But
>>if you are doing variable pumping alone, for $#% sakes, use a float vent on
>>the rails, so as to get the #$#% bubbles back to the tank!!!
>>
>>Regards, Greg




From Brian.Franchuk at drizzle.mm.com  Sat Jan 30 03:04:33 1999
From: Brian.Franchuk at drizzle.mm.com (Brian Franchuk)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:04:33 -0500
Subject: O2 Sensor Question
Message-ID: <mailman.33118.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I just looked at the LAF O2 sensor web page at 
http://www.tech2tech.net/training/laf.htm and I thought of some 
questions:

1) What is the detection range of a typical lambda sensor?  I've 
   heard the range is very narrow.  

2) Can the detection range be increased?  The web page talks about 
   using a voltage to repel the oxygen ions to control the rate that
   the ions reach the diffusion chamber.  If voltage is applied to a 
   normal sensor, what will happen?  

Is there is good web page or book I can look at for more info.

Thanks

Brian F.


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 30 03:09:42 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:09:42 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33119.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: Love This

Easier than that, just mount the rails horizontial, and have the regulator
the
high point, and vapor that collects rises to the regulator and self purges
to the
gas tank.  On some oem applications the regulator is below the centerline
of the fuel rail so the rail accumulates the vapor, and at first WOT can go
thru
a purge mode..
   Course the actual cause of the vapor forming is what needs addressed.
As an example of the worst fuel line plumbing look at a 84 F-body with a
carb..
The fuel line runs right above the top of the tranny, and within 2-3" of the
exhaust.
   I wouldn't be surprised to find out road vibration plays a part in
fuel foaming.
Cheers
Bruce



>>Thanks Greg!  I think you have put your finger on a problem that I have
>>been having.  Please elaborate on the float vent; on what junk cars can I
>>remove one and where do I look for it on the car?
>
>I dunno of any cars that have used one!!! :-)
>
>Basically all it is is like the float bowl of a carb working in
>reverse--the float chamber would be connected to the high point of the fuel
>rails--when the float chamber is full of liquid fuel, the float rises, and
>closes a needle valve. The outlet side of the needle valve is connected to
>your vent line back to the tank. If enough vapor collects for the float to
>drop, the needle valve opens, and the vapor goes bye bye into the vent
>system.
>
>There are lots of float vents out there for various industrial piping
>systems, but most weigh about 20 pounds, min.
>
>There are tiny little ones out there, made out of sheet metal, for domestic
>hot water heating systems, which would not take the fuel pressure--general
>environmental/vibration conditions under the hood at all.
>
>I have found one, made by Honeywell, which is rated 150psi, 250 degrees F,
>which is OK as to  bulk/weight, and they rate it as OK for
>water/glycol/petroleum based heat transfer fluids, so I think it MIGHT be
>OK for use in an automotive fuel system. Have not tried it out yet--and I
>would be pretty sure that Honeywell would have a whole litter of kittens if
>they found out their product was being used that way, so I am a little
>reluctant to state the part # of it. But that should not stop anybody from
>getting hold of a Honeywell "Tradeline" catalogue at a local HVAC /controls
>wholesaler and figuring out which part it is!!
>
>Been thinking about asking somebody that makes quality fuel system
>stuff--mebbe Barry Grant-- if they would be interested in making them
>specifically for our intended use. Prolly would have to go through a bunch
>of BS to show them why it's a needed part--and that would be a real PITA.
>
>Regards, Greg
>>
>>At 02:01 PM 1/29/99 -0700, Greg wrote:
>>(snip)
>>>But
>>>if you are doing variable pumping alone, for $#% sakes, use a float vent
on
>>>the rails, so as to get the #$#% bubbles back to the tank!!!
>>>
>>>Regards, Greg
>
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 30 03:18:59 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:18:59 -0500
Subject: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap   ECM'sa smokin
Message-ID: <mailman.33120.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap ECM'sa smokin


>> Diacom
>> Bruce
>> >How are you measuring injector opening time?  Change in current?
>> >Thanks for the info.
>> >Tom

>How are you measuring it with diacom?

One of the parameters displayed by diacom is pulse width.
I just twist the knobs around on the ecm bench till I see what I want to
see.  ie turn the idle speed down to 250 rpm, at 30K/Pa, and see
how short of pulse the ecm is generating.

  Are you lowering the opening
>time until they don't open anymore?

Yep.  If they stop clicking/vibrating they ain't working.
There has also been mention of injectors fring/burning up, from being
run dry.  After a hour of clicking away, they were still room temp, and
the resistance is the same, granted their calibration might be history,
but they still click for further bench work.
Bruce

> Roger




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 30 03:25:07 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:25:07 -0500
Subject: O2 Sensor Question
Message-ID: <mailman.33121.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Franchuk <Brian.Franchuk at drizzle.mm.com>
To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 10:17 PM
Subject: O2 Sensor Question


I just looked at the LAF O2 sensor web page at
http://www.tech2tech.net/training/laf.htm and I thought of some
questions:
1) What is the detection range of a typical lambda sensor?  I've
   heard the range is very narrow.

The short story is:
The "normal" O2 sensor is more of a switch then anything.  Anything
much above or below 14.7 happens at about .5v..   The extremes
from .5v vary with EGT, and age, so aren't very accurate reliable.


2) Can the detection range be increased?  The web page talks about
   using a voltage to repel the oxygen ions to control the rate that
   the ions reach the diffusion chamber.  If voltage is applied to a
   normal sensor, what will happen?

Not that I've heard of for part one, and probably ruin it by appling voltage
to it.

Is there is good web page or book I can look at for more info.

read the acrhives under EGOR
Cheers
Bruce

Thanks
Brian F.




From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan 30 03:29:59 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:29:59 -0500
Subject: Memcal's
Message-ID: <mailman.33122.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

In a message dated 1/29/99 5:30:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
EFISYSTEMS at aol.com writes:

>      While we're on the memcal subject....I am in need of approx 30 blue
>  memcal covers....(I had some meet an unfortunate death) Does anyone know 
> where
>  to buy these or does anyone have some to sell??????Thanks,

Carl, don't say "buy", the wrong people get excited.. 8~)
gimme a snail mail address offline.. I have 2 or 3..
Maybe others have some....?
MIke V


From ECMnut at aol.com  Sat Jan 30 03:42:44 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:42:44 -0500
Subject: Different Strokes
Message-ID: <mailman.33123.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

 I have to agree with M.Pitts on the fact that turbos allow you to make
the big torque numbers without excessive RPM.  With a 4 inch stroke
in a small block chev, it sounds like your rod/stroke ratio will be
more suited for lower RPM duty.  You are adding a torque producer
(in the form of a turbo) to a 400-500 foot lb torque monster engine...   
I think your biggest headache will be traction.(can I come over?).8~)
Mike V.

> n a conversation with the machine shop this afternoon the engine builder
said 
> I should consider going with a shorter stroke.  I can build a 4" stroke 434 
> ci, a 3.75" 406 ci, or a 3.48" stroke 355 ci engine.  The block I have is 
> already clearanced for the 4" stroke so the additional cost of preparing the
> block isn't a factor.   I already own the 4" crank and rods, and the crank 
> can be traded out for a shorter stroke without any additional cost.


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Sat Jan 30 04:00:11 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:00:11 -0500
Subject: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap   ECM'sa smokin
Message-ID: <mailman.33124.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

It makes sense that injecters in series don't open as fast.  There is
more inductance.  It takes the current (and the magnetic field) longer to
build to maximum strength.

I would be inclined to use a transister to fire each one seperately.  A
2N3055 is pretty cheap.

Ray


On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:19:19 -0500 "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
writes:
>Todays' lesson so far is
>series/parrarel injectors don't work, ie 2 groups (of 8 injectors) in
>  series, and the slow injector openings don't happen.  Where a 
>  stock setup will fire injectors to less than 1 msec.  the series/
>  par, sign off at about 2.1
>The intake air temp., correction makes little difference at idle,
>  but at higher rpm makes a huge difference.
>The above information is specific to a gm 1227730 using a AUJP
>calibration.
>More to follow
>Cheers
>Bruce
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Sat Jan 30 04:00:12 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:00:12 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33125.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:42:20 -0800 Mitch <mitcho at netcom.com> writes:
>At 12:59 PM 1/28/99 -0700, Greg Hermann wrote:
>>
>>OK --this is what I was talking about--does anybody know what you gotta
do
>>to "register" a copyright??
>>
>>I freely admit to being WAY out of date on this, but it would seem that
>>they cannot sue you over it if they have not registered it.

They can register it first, then sue you.  It doesn't have to be
registered at the time of the offence, just at the time of the suit.

If you want to protect something that you wrote, put a copyright notice
on it and do something that will prove that it was written before such
and such a date.  Mailing it to yourself is a common method.  When you
find that your idea has been stolen, register the copyright, then let the
process server pay him a visit.  On your day in court, take the
still-sealed letter to court and open it in front of a bunch of
witnesses.

Ray

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 30 04:14:57 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:14:57 -0500
Subject: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap   ECM'sa smokin
Message-ID: <mailman.33126.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond C Drouillard <cosmic.ray at juno.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap ECM'sa smokin

But, the point was to get hard numbers, and observed results.
The attempt was going to be firing 16 injectors without add on electronics.
Bruce


>It makes sense that injecters in series don't open as fast.  There is
>more inductance.  It takes the current (and the magnetic field) longer to
>build to maximum strength.
>
>I would be inclined to use a transister to fire each one seperately.  A
>2N3055 is pretty cheap.
>
>Ray
>
>
>On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:19:19 -0500 "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
>writes:
>>Todays' lesson so far is
>>series/parrarel injectors don't work, ie 2 groups (of 8 injectors) in
>>  series, and the slow injector openings don't happen.  Where a 
>>  stock setup will fire injectors to less than 1 msec.  the series/
>>  par, sign off at about 2.1
>>The intake air temp., correction makes little difference at idle,
>>  but at higher rpm makes a huge difference.
>>The above information is specific to a gm 1227730 using a AUJP
>>calibration.
>>More to follow
>>Cheers
>>Bruce
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>



From btisdale at cybersol.com  Sat Jan 30 04:21:08 1999
From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:21:08 -0500
Subject: KS update...
Message-ID: <mailman.33127.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Added a 339 to the 555 KS display circuit - can now use the small AC signal directly from the KS w/o any problems - lots easier than probing around the ECM for hours.  

Thanks for all the help offered - Barry


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 30 05:07:10 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:07:10 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33128.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:50 PM
>Subject: Re: Love This
>
>Easier than that, just mount the rails horizontial, and have the regulator
>the
>high point, and vapor that collects rises to the regulator and self purges
>to the
>gas tank.  On some oem applications the regulator is below the centerline
>of the fuel rail so the rail accumulates the vapor, and at first WOT can go
>thru
>a purge mode..
>   Course the actual cause of the vapor forming is what needs addressed.
>As an example of the worst fuel line plumbing look at a 84 F-body with a
>carb..
>The fuel line runs right above the top of the tranny, and within 2-3" of the
>exhaust.
>   I wouldn't be surprised to find out road vibration plays a part in
>fuel foaming.
>Cheers
>Bruce
>
Yep, that works, but not the best (easiest or most accurate) thing on the
regulator. Regulator low, always in liquid, float vent high, to take care
of the vapor, if any is one step further. And , yep, it's one more piece to
bust. But it will get rid of the vapor virtually INSTANTLY, even after a
hot soak.

Proper plumbing practice is ESSENTIAL, either way. Good fuel piping has a
lot in common with proper refrigerant piping.

Regards, Greg
>
>
>>>Thanks Greg!  I think you have put your finger on a problem that I have
>>>been having.  Please elaborate on the float vent; on what junk cars can I
>>>remove one and where do I look for it on the car?
>>
>>I dunno of any cars that have used one!!! :-)
>>
>>Basically all it is is like the float bowl of a carb working in
>>reverse--the float chamber would be connected to the high point of the fuel
>>rails--when the float chamber is full of liquid fuel, the float rises, and
>>closes a needle valve. The outlet side of the needle valve is connected to
>>your vent line back to the tank. If enough vapor collects for the float to
>>drop, the needle valve opens, and the vapor goes bye bye into the vent
>>system.
>>
>>There are lots of float vents out there for various industrial piping
>>systems, but most weigh about 20 pounds, min.
>>
>>There are tiny little ones out there, made out of sheet metal, for domestic
>>hot water heating systems, which would not take the fuel pressure--general
>>environmental/vibration conditions under the hood at all.
>>
>>I have found one, made by Honeywell, which is rated 150psi, 250 degrees F,
>>which is OK as to  bulk/weight, and they rate it as OK for
>>water/glycol/petroleum based heat transfer fluids, so I think it MIGHT be
>>OK for use in an automotive fuel system. Have not tried it out yet--and I
>>would be pretty sure that Honeywell would have a whole litter of kittens if
>>they found out their product was being used that way, so I am a little
>>reluctant to state the part # of it. But that should not stop anybody from
>>getting hold of a Honeywell "Tradeline" catalogue at a local HVAC /controls
>>wholesaler and figuring out which part it is!!
>>
>>Been thinking about asking somebody that makes quality fuel system
>>stuff--mebbe Barry Grant-- if they would be interested in making them
>>specifically for our intended use. Prolly would have to go through a bunch
>>of BS to show them why it's a needed part--and that would be a real PITA.
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>>
>>>At 02:01 PM 1/29/99 -0700, Greg wrote:
>>>(snip)
>>>>But
>>>>if you are doing variable pumping alone, for $#% sakes, use a float vent
>on
>>>>the rails, so as to get the #$#% bubbles back to the tank!!!
>>>>
>>>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 30 05:11:20 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:11:20 -0500
Subject: O2 Sensor Question
Message-ID: <mailman.33129.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I just looked at the LAF O2 sensor web page at
>http://www.tech2tech.net/training/laf.htm and I thought of some
>questions:

This is about a wide range, or UEGO sensor, not a typical one.
>
>1) What is the detection range of a typical lambda sensor?  I've
>   heard the range is very narrow.

For the typical HEGO, it is indeed very narrow. It basically say oxygen
present or not present. Best to consider it as a digital, or on/off sensor.
>
>2) Can the detection range be increased?

No.

The web page talks about
>   using a voltage to repel the oxygen ions to control the rate that
>   the ions reach the diffusion chamber.  If voltage is applied to a
>   normal sensor, what will happen?

But this is talking about a wide band, or UEGO sensor.
>
>Is there is good web page or book I can look at for more info.

An SAE paper # on the UEGO sensors is in the archives.

Regards, Greg
>
>Thanks
>
>Brian F.




From mpitts at emi.net  Sat Jan 30 05:17:51 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:17:51 -0500
Subject: Rising rate fuel pressure regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.33130.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Some of you may remember my recent post about my desire to 
build a rising rate pressure regulator to mount in the stock location.  
Carl Summers informed me that he already has such a device.  

I just received one and all I can say is WOW!  What a nice piece 
of engineering work!  This is something I would expect to see on 
a Formula-1 racer.  

If you want to take a peek, I made up a little webpage with photo 
of Carl's regulator standing next to an OEM Bosch regulator. 

http://www.emi.net/~mpitts/reg.htm

-Mike




From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Jan 30 05:22:48 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:22:48 -0500
Subject: Copyright info, found this in the search
Message-ID: <mailman.33131.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

"Interested parties should submit 15 copies of their written
comments to the Office of the General Counsel, Copyright GC/I&R, P.O.
Box 70400, Southwest Station, Washington, D.C. 20024. "



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 30 05:29:26 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:29:26 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33132.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:42:20 -0800 Mitch <mitcho at netcom.com> writes:
>>At 12:59 PM 1/28/99 -0700, Greg Hermann wrote:
>>>
>>>OK --this is what I was talking about--does anybody know what you gotta
>do
>>>to "register" a copyright??
>>>
>>>I freely admit to being WAY out of date on this, but it would seem that
>>>they cannot sue you over it if they have not registered it.
>
>They can register it first, then sue you.  It doesn't have to be
>registered at the time of the offence, just at the time of the suit.
>
>If you want to protect something that you wrote, put a copyright notice
>on it and do something that will prove that it was written before such
>and such a date.  Mailing it to yourself is a common method.  When you
>find that your idea has been stolen, register the copyright, then let the
>process server pay him a visit.  On your day in court, take the
>still-sealed letter to court and open it in front of a bunch of
>witnesses.

Absolutely right, Ray--but what I am saying is that with regard to mfgr
ecu's and their source code, the mfgrs would rather DIE than make their
source code public record, so they would have to get their tail twisted
AWFULLY hard before they would register the copyright on it (which requires
putting their source code into public record) just so as to be able to sue
somebody over copying it.

Bottom line is, I am not worried, nor do I think somebody like Hypertech
needs to worry.

Regards, Greg
>
>Ray
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 30 05:48:31 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:48:31 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33133.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hermann <bearbvd at sni.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: Love This

I can understand the concern about the regulator, and vapor, having done a
fuel/vapor seperator, and included a clear section of tubing during
developement
(was carb.) the vapor is not a major issue, if bleed out-ie maybe 1-2-3%,
it's
when there is no effort for it to bleed out that it's a problem.
Bruce


>>Easier than that, just mount the rails horizontial, and have the regulator
>>the
>>high point, and vapor that collects rises to the regulator and self purges
>>to the
>>gas tank.  On some oem applications the regulator is below the centerline
>>of the fuel rail so the rail accumulates the vapor, and at first WOT can
go
>>thru
>>a purge mode..
>>   Course the actual cause of the vapor forming is what needs addressed.
>>As an example of the worst fuel line plumbing look at a 84 F-body with a
>>carb..
>>The fuel line runs right above the top of the tranny, and within 2-3" of
the
>>exhaust.
>>   I wouldn't be surprised to find out road vibration plays a part in
>>fuel foaming.
>>Cheers
>>Bruce
>>
>Yep, that works, but not the best (easiest or most accurate) thing on the
>regulator. Regulator low, always in liquid, float vent high, to take care
>of the vapor, if any is one step further. And , yep, it's one more piece to
>bust. But it will get rid of the vapor virtually INSTANTLY, even after a
>hot soak.
>Proper plumbing practice is ESSENTIAL, either way. Good fuel piping has a
>lot in common with proper refrigerant piping.
>Regards, Greg




From mpitts at emi.net  Sat Jan 30 06:53:43 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 01:53:43 -0500
Subject: O2 Sensor Question
Message-ID: <mailman.33134.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


Does this interest anyone?  

There are other papers on the same topic on this same site, keep 
looking.  If you find anything good, let us know!

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn10=US04498968

Thx,
-Mike




From mpitts at emi.net  Sat Jan 30 07:06:22 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:06:22 -0500
Subject: Even better
Message-ID: <mailman.33135.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


This one shows a very simple feedback circuit.

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn10=US04841934

-Mike




From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com  Sat Jan 30 07:19:06 1999
From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:19:06 -0500
Subject: Even better
Message-ID: <mailman.33136.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Mike,
    That number doesn't seem to work can you double check???
-Carl Summers

In a message dated 1/29/99 11:09:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, mpitts at emi.net
writes:

<< Subj:	 Even better
 Date:	1/29/99 11:09:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
 From:	mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
 Sender:	owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 Reply-to:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
 
 
 This one shows a very simple feedback circuit.
 
 http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn10=US04841934
 
 -Mike
  >>


From trinity at golden.net  Sat Jan 30 07:59:17 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:59:17 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33137.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>
>I would guess that the trigger point or the center of a given spark
>(measured in the audio-domain) is probably centered pretty
>consistantly at the same point, and since you don't have to do things
>real time you can take some time to analyze and determine exactly were
>each pulse was centered.  And even if they varied a  bit, the average
>should be pretty good.  I did some quick calcs, and 3000 rpm the pulse
>spacing is 20 ms, and 3025 rpm is 19.83 ms (DIS), so if you have .1 ms
>resolution you would be able to get better than 25 rpm accuracy at
>this point.   And ao long as you have enough bandwidth to be able to
>determine each pulse you should be able to do it.  My guess is that a
>basic cheap take recorder should give you enough data to do the job.
>A 6000 rpm pulse is 100 pps (DIS) or 50 pps (fire every other rpm), so
>to get accurate and distinct centers you would not require that much
>bandwidth (ie 1-2khz looks to be adequate)
>
>				Roger
>

If resolution is what you want (and we all do :), how about picking up the
peaks from the alternator output? Maybe they can be of some use other than
pissing-off stereo installers. 

I figure 6 peaks per alternator revolution (3-phases, full-wave rectified,
complete in one revolution). Since the alternator is "geared" to turn quite
a bit faster than the crank, you'd get much better resolution. All you'd
need to know is the alternator to crank speed ratio (pulley diameters would
suffice).




--
 Mike



From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Jan 30 09:29:18 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:29:18 -0500
Subject: Cubic Dollars
Message-ID: <mailman.33138.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well, I've spent a bunch of time looking at copyright stuff.  Some
summaries follow:

1)  The online method for looking for copyrights is archaic, leading
to #2

2)  I didn't find any copyrights by GM specifically pertaining to
software.  This is inconclusive by itself.

3)  The requirements for registering computer programs depend on
whether the program contains "trade secrets" or not.  $20.00, plus a
completed application, and 50 pages of code gets a copyright.  Code
can be "blacked out" if it contains trade secrets.  There are some
small variations to these requirements.

4)  The copyright office includes a disclaimer:  
"Copyright protection extends to all of the copyrightable
expression embodied in the computer program.  Copyright protection
is not available for ideas, program logic, algorithms, systems,
methods, concepts, or layouts."  

5)  Copyright information must be present in programs copyrighted
before 3/1/1989, but is not necessary after that date.  This is
primarily to reduce or prevent "Innocent violations"

6)  A certificate of copyright can be issued at any time up to 5 years
after the initial publication of the program, and the program is
considered copyrighted from the initial date of publication.

7)  Even if the copyright owner has lost no money, and an individual
has gained no profit from a violation, the owner may still file for
statutory damages, ranging from $200 to $2500 per incident for
illegaly bypassing copy protection and from $2500 to $25000 for
altering/falsifying copyright information.  This is in addition to any
criminal penalties.

8)  For the sake of copyright protection, "a technological measure
`effectively controls access to a work' if the measure, in the
ordinary course of it's operation, requires the application of
information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the
copyright owner, to gain access to the work."  (copy protection, here)

9)  The only argument for the above that I can see, and it's a
stretched one at that, is that by not placing the source code on the
eprom, (am I right here...op codes yes, source code no?) there's a
"process or treatment" required to gain access.

10)  In order to determine the "interoperability" of one program with
another, copy protection may be legally circumvented.  This falls
inder the heading "Reverse Engineering", which is somewhat vague. 
Taken in context, reverse engineering could be limited to reversing
the copy protection, or could include the entire program.  Either way
you must have a legal right to use the software which you are reverse
engineering.

11)  Since there is no specific agreement stating otherwise, I have to
assume that possession of an eprom, or possession of an ECM, or
possesion of the appropriate vehicle constitutes a legal right to use
the program.  I wonder what would happen in court if you introduced
the idea that the EPA requires that you have a right to use the
software if you own the vehicle, especially during the emissions
warranty period.

So.  If you own a vehicle which uses the computer for which the
program was designed, and you are running the program through
promgrammer, or tweaker, or any similar software with the intention of
evaluating how well the programs work together, there should be no way
to prosecute for copyright violations.

Mike, Since the copyright office requires code to be submitted with a
copyright application, and the code is available for public viewing,
there should be no problem with posting limited amounts of code. 
Stick to 50 lines max.  In addition, after eliminating everything not
covered by copyright (see #4), what is left of our simple code?  

All in all, I think it would be pretty difficult for GM to
successfully prosecute for copyright violations, as they don't seem to
have gone to any lengths to indicate copyright.  There's no security
of any kind on the program, no markings anywhere of copyrighted
material, and no part of the program which appears to be copyright
protected.  This is in stark contrast with GM's general approach, as
they are very thorough about adding their copyright information to
manuals, sales information, diagnostic materials, scan tools, shop
software, logos, and on and on. Since GM has set a reliable pattern
regarding copyright information, and there is none present in the
code, it must not be copyrighted.

Successful prosecution aside, GM's lawyers could break my bank in a
day.  If I had any doubts, I'd sure stay clear of 'em.

Here are links to the materials I butchered for this.
http://www.loc.gov/copyright
http://www.aimnet.com/~carroll/copyright/faq-home.html
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/
A listing of copyrights which have been granted since 1972 can be
obtained via ftp at 140.147.254.3.  I found some as old as 1962

If anyone follows my advice and ends up getting in trouble because of
it, don't come crying to me.  I'm a mechanic, not a lawyer.
Shannen



From ron.boley at worldnet.att.net  Sat Jan 30 11:38:09 1999
From: ron.boley at worldnet.att.net (ron.boley)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 06:38:09 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33139.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Adding to Rogers comments,

I would drive the pump in a PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) mode such that
I can control the pressure.  If we flip it around and I can control the
fuel pressure the engine controller can keep the Fuel Injector pulse
width fixed for longer periods of time.  While its not what I would do
with the faster CPU's these days it might make for a less expensive
engine controller which appeals to the marketing people

Ron



Roger Heflin wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Barry E. King wrote:
> 
> > Okay, I'll bite.
> >
> > How would one go about converting from a conventional system with a return
> > line to one without?
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Barry
> 
> Besides the physical conversion, you would need to add a input to the
> computer that mesaures the pressure from the transducer, and use that
> pressure to adjust the injector pulsewidths based on pressure.  So
> beyond physcially converting your would need significant computer
> adjustements (probably even computer hardware adjustments to get the
> addition A/D input to use for the injector fuel pressure that is to be
> used in the calculation of injector pulsewidths.
> 
>                                 Roger


From dcsmith at gnttype.org  Sat Jan 30 13:07:25 1999
From: dcsmith at gnttype.org (DC Smith)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:07:25 -0500
Subject: Code Tweaking (Was Cubic Dollars)
Message-ID: <mailman.33140.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Kind of along these lines...
 I got a phone call from a private investigator in Atlanta a while back.
He told me he had heard I play with a lot of performance chip for my
car, and was trying to pinpoint when chips had started to become
"tweaked" by individuals. It seems he had a client that was being sued
for selling performance chips. This nut case initiating the suit,
claimed he "invented" performance chips in 1994 or something. He told me
this 'nut' had even gone to try and sue GM for tweaking on their code.
Jeez, what an idiot for trying that one.. GM just shrugged this guy
off..
 I told the PI to join this list to get the "straight poop" on modifying
EFI chips.. Don't know if he ever did, or even remember what his name
was..
 I kinda got a kick out of that one, though.. :^)

Greg Hermann wrote:

> AWFULLY hard before they would register the copyright on it (which requires
> putting their source code into public record) just so as to be able to sue
> somebody over copying it.
> 
> Bottom line is, I am not worried, nor do I think somebody like Hypertech
> needs to worry.

***********************************************************************
Dan Smith      84 Regal   12.13 at 112 (so far)   GSCA# 1459
St.Charles, Missouri                
mailto:dcsmith at gnttype.org
http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral
***********************************************************************


From dcsmith at gnttype.org  Sat Jan 30 13:15:41 1999
From: dcsmith at gnttype.org (DC Smith)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:15:41 -0500
Subject: Rising rate fuel pressure regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.33141.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Mike Pitts wrote:
> 
> Some of you may remember my recent post about my desire to
> build a rising rate pressure regulator to mount in the stock location.
> Carl Summers informed me that he already has such a device.
> 

 Mike,
 WOW!
 Did that come off the space shuttle? :^) Nice Piece!!
 I don't know abbout mounting that on the fuel rail, though.
I saw a add on to a TTA at Bowling Green once, that was piped after the
stock regulator and had a huge diaphram on it. It just held back the
fuel pressure after the stock regulator,in the return line.
 That thing will need brackets to keep it from breaking the fuel rail
off.

> I just received one and all I can say is WOW!  What a nice piece
> of engineering work!  This is something I would expect to see on
> a Formula-1 racer.
> 
> If you want to take a peek, I made up a little webpage with photo
> of Carl's regulator standing next to an OEM Bosch regulator.
> 
> http://www.emi.net/~mpitts/reg.htm
> 
> -Mike

-- 
***********************************************************************
Dan Smith      84 Regal   12.13 at 112 (so far)   GSCA# 1459
St.Charles, Missouri                
mailto:dcsmith at gnttype.org
http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral
***********************************************************************


From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Sat Jan 30 14:09:14 1999
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:09:14 -0500
Subject: Cubic Nonsense
Message-ID: <mailman.33142.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

So one fine day as the pee-ants are standing around congratulating and
reassuring themselves that the elephant can't hurt them in a s___ stomping
contest, the elephant (GM) decides its going to end.

Hello - this is GM air quality PAC.  We are updating our campaign
contributions Mr ( fill in the blank politician ) and we seem to have
neglected helping to finance your fine work on the behalf of "concerned"
americans.  How many zeros would you like in this check?

Shortly afterwards the EPA issues new ruling's that vehicles with modified
ECU's must be re-certified with the duplicate of the manufacturers original
test certification at the modifiers/owners expense in a yet to be determined
government approved facility.  Then that certification is good only for the
specific make and model and year of the vehicle.  Further, since the emissions
system has been modified, the modifier takes full responsibility for the
remainder of the 100,000 mile emissions warranty.   If an end user vehicle
"fails" any smog test, it will be prima facia declared to be the modified
whatever"s fault which shall be restored to original manufacturers part prior
to retest.   Yada Yada Yada ISO 9001 - comply with federal regulation xxx
submit testing plan 180 days prior to testing for EPA review and approval
prior to testing - full disclosure of modifications - provide facilities for
on site EPA monitoring contractor

Ad absurdium.   Anyone ever dealing with the government knows that's just the
beginning.

Vehicles with modified emissions systems not certified as above or failing air
quality tests will be confiscated without recourse.  

And before you scream rights and other BS - you NEED to read the latest rules
on vehicle and property confiscation as regards to illegal aliens.
Essentially they boil down to this.  Give an illegal a ride with any "should
of known" or have one on your property and the government can seize it - even
if its a day laborer cutting your lawn.  And you think you can beat the
elephant when he choses to stomp?   Ker Plop - you're drowning in it, Thump
squish.  Your done.   And there ain't an aftermarket company whose gross
income match's GM, Ford or others booze and bimbos for Gummint Slush Fund.
Money, large quantities of untraceable dead presidents, in the "right" hands
gets anything GM wants.

So now that we are divided into two camps, brave pee-ants and the elephant
wary, what's to do.  EFI-555, EFI-332, Programming 101 - learn and share as
much as possible.  The elephant is now indifferent - enjoy its ignorance.
Back to EFI.

1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"

Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From mwichstr at online.no  Sat Jan 30 15:56:49 1999
From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:56:49 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33143.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


A sudden change in advance would indicate a increase in hp at that
point......
wouldnt it?
Electromotive and many other systems uses a wheel with many thoths,it could
give nice resolution for computing accleration, the home
dyno should be incorporated in the log system,something for 332efi?
put in some more advance at some points acclerate the car .the system
creating a map of + and - hp of pevious runs?Automatic advance calibration
....
together with egor and ion.....automatic calibrating efi isnt that what we
all are dreaming of?
just daydreaming again....
Espen Hilde


From mpitts at emi.net  Sat Jan 30 16:12:59 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:12:59 -0500
Subject: Even better
Message-ID: <mailman.33144.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>That number doesn't seem to work can you double check???

Hmmm, it seems to work fine for me.  Is anyone else having 
troubles with the hyperlink?

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn10=US04841934
 
-Mike 




From mpitts at emi.net  Sat Jan 30 16:28:22 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:28:22 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33145.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Any interest?  Is this a waste of bandwidth?

"This invention provides an self-calibrating buffer amplifier 
for a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor interface circuit 
which couples and processes a voltage signal proportional 
to pumping cell current to a level and reference voltage suitable 
for input to an A-to-D convertor. The goal of this invention is to 
increase the accuracy of air-to-fuel ratio control by continually 
correcting for the effects of offset quantities in the amplifier 
stage necessary to the interface circuitry. This goal is accomplished 
by an approach which effectively generates and subtracts these 
offset quantities from the processed signal. "

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=US05211154__

-Mike




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 30 16:31:52 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:31:52 -0500
Subject: Even better
Message-ID: <mailman.33146.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pitts <mpitts at emi.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: Even better

Works fine, in Arcanum, OH, but we do have Doc working this am..
Cheers
Bruce


>
>>That number doesn't seem to work can you double check???
>
>Hmmm, it seems to work fine for me.  Is anyone else having 
>troubles with the hyperlink?
>
>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn10=US04841934
> 
>-Mike 
>
>



From mpilkent at ptw.com  Sat Jan 30 16:38:46 1999
From: mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:38:46 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.33147.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Well I'm deep into my engine conversion project and need to install an
electric fuel pump for the EFI engine (3.1L V6).  Question is do I have to
put the fuel pump back in the tank or can I install the pump up by the
engine.  I know I need the high pressure type made for FI engines and not
the carb (low pressure).  Mounting anaftermarket in-line pump up by the
engine sure would be more convenient.  Any advice would be appreciated.

Mike Pilkenton



From mpitts at emi.net  Sat Jan 30 16:47:51 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:47:51 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33148.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>Electromotive and many other systems uses a wheel with many thoths,
>it could give nice resolution for computing accleration, ...

Also, if it has enough teeth, you can detect weak cylinders 
by comparing the waveform in the range of each cylinder. 
(ie: the teeth will slow ever so slightly for when a weak cylinder 
if firing)

>automatic calibrating efi isnt that what we all are dreaming of?

A Felpro with the wideband O2 option comes pretty darn close 
if not right on the money to the definition of self calibrating. 

And yes, I do dream of it. 8-)

-Mike




From quest100 at gte.net  Sat Jan 30 17:02:36 1999
From: quest100 at gte.net (Fran and Bud)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:02:36 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33149.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

For what it is worth, no one seems to have mentioned (or else I missed the
post) that many "in the tank" fuel pumps rely on the gasoline in the tank to
cool the pump and need at least 1/4 tank of gas to do this properly.

If I had a vapor problem, I would at least eliminate this as a possibility
by topping off my tank every time that it went below 1/2 and see if the
problem went away.  Particularly if the problem seems to be aggravated by a
near empty tank as one post mentioned.

Even a pump external to the tank, can be affected by other heat sources ,
lack of adequate air flow, etc. but would most likely not be affected by the
low fuel level.


----------
>From: Clarence Wood <clarencewood at centuryinter.net>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Re: Love This
>Date: Fri, Jan 29, 1999, 11:17 PM
>

>Thanks Greg!  I think you have put your finger on a problem that I have 
>been having.  Please elaborate on the float vent; on what junk cars can I 
>remove one and where do I look for it on the car?
>
>At 02:01 PM 1/29/99 -0700, Greg wrote:
>(snip)
>>But
>>if you are doing variable pumping alone, for $#% sakes, use a float vent on
>>the rails, so as to get the #$#% bubbles back to the tank!!!
>>
>>Regards, Greg
>>
>>
>>>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: James Weiler <james at brc.ubc.ca>
>>>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>>>> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: Love This
>>>>
>>>> For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news".  It's being able to
>>>> manipulate
>>>> fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device.  As things sit now
>>>> for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost.  With this
>>>> device
>>>> a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible,
>>>> meaning
>>>> big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse widths.
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>> >Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of >a
>>>> one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.
>>>> >thanks
>>>> >jw
>>>> >
>>
>>
>>


From John.Andrian at usa.net  Sat Jan 30 17:12:55 1999
From: John.Andrian at usa.net (John Andrianakis)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:12:55 -0500
Subject: Different Strokes
Message-ID: <mailman.33150.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

David Sagers wrote:
> 
> I'm building a twin turbo small block chevy for a 1981 Corvette, auto trans and all the power accessories.  It'll be used for a hotrod street car, primarily on weekends and sunny days.
> 
> In a conversation with the machine shop this afternoon the engine builder said I should consider going with a shorter stroke.  I can build a 4" stroke 434 ci, a 3.75" 406 ci, or a 3.48" stroke 355 ci engine.  The block I have is already clearanced for the 4" stroke so the additional cost of preparing the block isn't a factor.   I already own the 4" crank and rods, and the crank can be traded out for a shorter stroke without any additional cost.
> 
> The builder said that a short stroke engine will respond better to a turbo as it'll rev faster.  So I'm looking for someone with knowledge and experience with turbo engines.   Do I go with the shorter stoke that'll rev faster, or go with the 4" stroke that makes a lot of torque, especially in the low RPM ranges.  Low RPM torque seems to be important as this is going to be a street engine generally run in the lower RPM ranges.
> 
> Some of the things I want from the engine are throttle response and low rpm power.  I was hoping that by going with the big 434 ci engine I could over come some of the slow acceleration associated with turbo lag in small engines.

I think turbo engines like longer stroke better. Long fat exhaust pulses
help turbo efficiency and reduce spool up time. Reducing freewheeling of
the turbo assembly is a worthy design goal that can be achieved in two
ways: longer stroke and better exhaust manifold design- equal length
-180 degrees headers.
Just an opinion.
John Andrianakis.




From quest100 at gte.net  Sat Jan 30 17:19:37 1999
From: quest100 at gte.net (Fran and Bud)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:19:37 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.33151.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Best performance will be gained by mounting the pump low and as close to the
gas tank as possible, making the low pressure (inlet) flow circuit short. 
Most pumps don't do well with suction, but are happy pushing all the gas
they can get. 
----------
>From: "Mike Pilkenton" <mpilkent at ptw.com>
>To: "DIY-EFI" <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>, "4/6 Cyl. Performance"
<DomesticPerformance at onelist.com>
>Subject: fuel pumps
>Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999, 4:34 PM
>

>Well I'm deep into my engine conversion project and need to install an
>electric fuel pump for the EFI engine (3.1L V6).  Question is do I have to
>put the fuel pump back in the tank or can I install the pump up by the
>engine.  I know I need the high pressure type made for FI engines and not
>the carb (low pressure).  Mounting anaftermarket in-line pump up by the
>engine sure would be more convenient.  Any advice would be appreciated.
>
>Mike Pilkenton
>


From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sat Jan 30 17:28:15 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:28:15 -0500
Subject: replace an EPROM with an EEPROM?
Message-ID: <mailman.33152.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Pinouts are different... 27C256 is a 28 pin, 28256 is a 32 pin...

At 05:06 PM 1/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Has anyone tried to replace an Eprom with and EEprom?
>Specifically, Replace the 27c256 in a Memcal with a 28256?
>Does anyone know if it would work?  or is the pinout somehow different?
>The reason I'm interested in doing this is because it would be more economical
>and efficient.
>
>Also, what do people do about removing and replacing their Eproms from the
>Memcals when reprogramming them?  Do you solder in ZIF sockets?
>
>I want to start lookin at and modifying my Memcal, but have never done any of
>this stuff before.
>
>Thanks,
>Ted

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Jan 30 17:36:08 1999
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:36:08 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33153.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Here's one for you to look at, Mike.  Torque determination based on
crankshaft speeds.
http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/WO09829718A1

Mike Pitts wrote:
> 
> >Electromotive and many other systems uses a wheel with many thoths,
> >it could give nice resolution for computing accleration, ...
> 
> Also, if it has enough teeth, you can detect weak cylinders
> by comparing the waveform in the range of each cylinder.
> (ie: the teeth will slow ever so slightly for when a weak cylinder
> if firing)
> 
> >automatic calibrating efi isnt that what we all are dreaming of?
> 
> A Felpro with the wideband O2 option comes pretty darn close
> if not right on the money to the definition of self calibrating.
> 
> And yes, I do dream of it. 8-)
> 
> -Mike



From tmatthew at stny.lrun.com  Sat Jan 30 18:03:53 1999
From: tmatthew at stny.lrun.com (Thomas Matthews)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:03:53 -0500
Subject: Fuel injector cleaner tools
Message-ID: <mailman.33154.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Anyone have a source for the injector cleaning tools (on-car type) that
will clean both TBI and TPI? I've gone into my local parts stores and
asked, and the droid behind the counter inevitably looks at me like I am
from Mars... Summitt used to carry these, but they don't any longer.
TIA,
Tom


From jimd at vcc.bc.ca  Sat Jan 30 18:11:21 1999
From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:11:21 -0500
Subject: Oh Class, tap, tap, tap   ECM'sa smokin
Message-ID: <mailman.33155.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Raymond C Drouillard wrote:

> It makes sense that injecters in series don't open as fast.  There is
> more inductance.  It takes the current (and the magnetic field) longer to
> build to maximum strength.
> 
Sounds reasonable to me, but have a look at US Pat 4553121




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 30 20:06:26 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:06:26 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33156.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

NEVER,
Need more data, 
Cheers
Bruce


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pitts <mpitts at emi.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:36 AM
Subject: More UEGO stuff


>Any interest?  Is this a waste of bandwidth?
>
>"This invention provides an self-calibrating buffer amplifier 
>for a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor interface circuit 
>which couples and processes a voltage signal proportional 
>to pumping cell current to a level and reference voltage suitable 
>for input to an A-to-D convertor. The goal of this invention is to 
>increase the accuracy of air-to-fuel ratio control by continually 
>correcting for the effects of offset quantities in the amplifier 
>stage necessary to the interface circuitry. This goal is accomplished 
>by an approach which effectively generates and subtracts these 
>offset quantities from the processed signal. "
>
>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=US05211154__
>
>-Mike
>
>



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 30 20:15:33 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:15:33 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.33157.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pilkenton <mpilkent at ptw.com>
To: DIY-EFI <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>; 4/6 Cyl. Performance
<DomesticPerformance at onelist.com>
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:43 AM
Subject: fuel pumps

Close to gas tank, siphon feed, water fuel seperator (between tank, and
pump),
filter by pump (on engine side).
Always remember fuel is a heat magnet.  I sucks the heat out of everything
near it.  I like Mallory's, replace brushes at 35,000 miles, and pump at
60,000,
that the interval that has worked for well over 100000 miles for me.
Bruce


>Well I'm deep into my engine conversion project and need to install an
>electric fuel pump for the EFI engine (3.1L V6).  Question is do I have to
>put the fuel pump back in the tank or can I install the pump up by the
>engine.  I know I need the high pressure type made for FI engines and not
>the carb (low pressure).  Mounting anaftermarket in-line pump up by the
>engine sure would be more convenient.  Any advice would be appreciated.
>
>Mike Pilkenton
>



From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 30 20:16:13 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:16:13 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33158.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>For what it is worth, no one seems to have mentioned (or else I missed the
>post) that many "in the tank" fuel pumps rely on the gasoline in the tank to
>cool the pump and need at least 1/4 tank of gas to do this properly.
>
>If I had a vapor problem, I would at least eliminate this as a possibility
>by topping off my tank every time that it went below 1/2 and see if the
>problem went away.  Particularly if the problem seems to be aggravated by a
>near empty tank as one post mentioned.
>
>Even a pump external to the tank, can be affected by other heat sources ,
>lack of adequate air flow, etc. but would most likely not be affected by the
>low fuel level.

Yep. I kinda believe in running either the fuel supply line, the return
line, or both through little coolers like those meant for cooling power
steering fluid so as to help with this too. If you keep adding heat to
something, it's gotta go somewhere!  :-)

Regards, Greg
>
>
>----------
>>From: Clarence Wood <clarencewood at centuryinter.net>
>>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>>Subject: Re: Love This
>>Date: Fri, Jan 29, 1999, 11:17 PM
>>
>
>>Thanks Greg!  I think you have put your finger on a problem that I have
>>been having.  Please elaborate on the float vent; on what junk cars can I
>>remove one and where do I look for it on the car?
>>
>>At 02:01 PM 1/29/99 -0700, Greg wrote:
>>(snip)
>>>But
>>>if you are doing variable pumping alone, for $#% sakes, use a float vent on
>>>the rails, so as to get the #$#% bubbles back to the tank!!!
>>>
>>>Regards, Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: James Weiler <james at brc.ubc.ca>
>>>>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>>>>> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM
>>>>> Subject: RE: Love This
>>>>>
>>>>> For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news".  It's being able to
>>>>> manipulate
>>>>> fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device.  As things sit now
>>>>> for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost.  With this
>>>>> device
>>>>> a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible,
>>>>> meaning
>>>>> big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse
>>>>>widths.
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>
>>>>> >Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of >a
>>>>> one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.
>>>>> >thanks
>>>>> >jw
>>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>




From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 30 20:17:12 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:17:12 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33159.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: Love This

Bosch has a Lamda Valve Part No.  0280-150-306, that seems to fit this
application.  But, till I buy one that's all I know
Bruce


>Does anybody use a PWM fuel pressure regulator? Or know more about the
>part referenced here?
>http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/archive/archive_num_88;lines=6114-
6151
>
> How about the aftermarket systems that come with tc/sc?   It just
>seems funny to me to use mechanical regulators and vary pump speed,
>instead of maintaining constant pump speed/volume and adjusting
>regulated pressure.  It seems so simple, and no one does it, that
>there must be a "catch".
>
>Shannen
>Bruce Plecan wrote:
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: James Weiler <james at brc.ubc.ca>
>> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 1:07 AM
>> Subject: RE: Love This
>>
>> For me it's not the plumbing that is the "news".  It's being able to
>> manipulate
>> fuel line pressure without needing a mechanical device.  As things sit
now
>> for TPI the fuel pressure is referenced to engine vac/boost.  With this
>> device
>> a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure trimmer is possible,
>> meaning
>> big injectors, lower pressure at idle, to help get reasonable pulse
widths.
>> Bruce
>>
>> >Sorry to get in this late but so what?  I mean whats the advantage of >a
>> one line EFI vs. 2 fuel line set-up?  Besides less plumbing.
>> >thanks
>> >jw
>> >
>



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan 30 20:20:04 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:20:04 -0500
Subject: Cubic Nonsense
Message-ID: <mailman.33160.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Robert Harris wrote:

> So one fine day as the pee-ants are standing around congratulating and
> reassuring themselves that the elephant can't hurt them in a s___ stomping
> contest, the elephant (GM) decides its going to end.
> 
> Hello - this is GM air quality PAC.  We are updating our campaign
> contributions Mr ( fill in the blank politician ) and we seem to have
> neglected helping to finance your fine work on the behalf of "concerned"
> americans.  How many zeros would you like in this check?
> 
> Shortly afterwards the EPA issues new ruling's that vehicles with modified
> ECU's must be re-certified with the duplicate of the manufacturers original
> test certification at the modifiers/owners expense in a yet to be determined
> government approved facility.  Then that certification is good only for the
> specific make and model and year of the vehicle.  Further, since the emissions
> system has been modified, the modifier takes full responsibility for the
> remainder of the 100,000 mile emissions warranty.   If an end user vehicle
> "fails" any smog test, it will be prima facia declared to be the modified
> whatever"s fault which shall be restored to original manufacturers part prior
> to retest.   Yada Yada Yada ISO 9001 - comply with federal regulation xxx
> submit testing plan 180 days prior to testing for EPA review and approval
> prior to testing - full disclosure of modifications - provide
facilities for
> on site EPA monitoring contiractor
> 
> Ad absurdium.   Anyone ever dealing with the government knows that's just the
> beginning.
> 
> Vehicles with modified emissions systems not certified as above or failing air
> quality tests will be confiscated without recourse.  
>
I don't think GM will want that passed.  That would mean they also
have to have their modified proms recertified, and I bet they don't go
to that much trouble with a service update.   And they update quite a
few proms to fix things, and I really doubt the go through the entire
EPA process each time.

			Roger




From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan 30 20:23:07 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:23:07 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33161.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Espen Hilde wrote:

> 
> A sudden change in advance would indicate a increase in hp at that
> point......
> wouldnt it?
> Electromotive and many other systems uses a wheel with many thoths,it could
> give nice resolution for computing accleration, the home
> dyno should be incorporated in the log system,something for 332efi?
> put in some more advance at some points acclerate the car .the system
> creating a map of + and - hp of pevious runs?Automatic advance calibration
> ....
> together with egor and ion.....automatic calibrating efi isnt that what we
> all are dreaming of?
> just daydreaming again....
> Espen Hilde

I would appear to cause a increase for one or two firings.  I believe 
the maker of the home dyno had to do some smoothing to get reasonable 
data, and I don't think advancing the timing would have a major
affect over 3-4 firings, and certainly not over a few more firings wit
h some smoothing.  Getting there 10 degrees earlier should only be
about 10/720 increase in hp which a bit of smoothing would clear right
up.

> 



From nacelp at bright.net  Sat Jan 30 20:27:30 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:27:30 -0500
Subject: Cubic Nonsense
Message-ID: <mailman.33162.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Heflin <rah at horizon.hit.net>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Cubic Nonsense


>
>
>On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Robert Harris wrote:
>
>> So one fine day as the pee-ants are standing around congratulating and
>> reassuring themselves that the elephant can't hurt them in a s___
stomping
>> contest, the elephant (GM) decides its going to end.
>>
>> Hello - this is GM air quality PAC.  We are updating our campaign
>> contributions Mr ( fill in the blank politician ) and we seem to have
>> neglected helping to finance your fine work on the behalf of "concerned"
>> americans.  How many zeros would you like in this check?
>>
>> Shortly afterwards the EPA issues new ruling's that vehicles with
modified
>> ECU's must be re-certified with the duplicate of the manufacturers
original
>> test certification at the modifiers/owners expense in a yet to be
determined
>> government approved facility.  Then that certification is good only for
the
>> specific make and model and year of the vehicle.  Further, since the
emissions
>> system has been modified, the modifier takes full responsibility for the
>> remainder of the 100,000 mile emissions warranty.   If an end user
vehicle
>> "fails" any smog test, it will be prima facia declared to be the modified
>> whatever"s fault which shall be restored to original manufacturers part
prior
>> to retest.   Yada Yada Yada ISO 9001 - comply with federal regulation xxx
>> submit testing plan 180 days prior to testing for EPA review and approval
>> prior to testing - full disclosure of modifications - provide
>facilities for
>> on site EPA monitoring contiractor
>>
>> Ad absurdium.   Anyone ever dealing with the government knows that's just
the
>> beginning.
>>
>> Vehicles with modified emissions systems not certified as above or
failing air
>> quality tests will be confiscated without recourse.
>>
>I don't think GM will want that passed.  That would mean they also
>have to have their modified proms recertified, and I bet they don't go
>to that much trouble with a service update.   And they update quite a
>few proms to fix things, and I really doubt the go through the entire
>EPA process each time.
>
> Roger
>
>



From kb4mxo at mwt.net  Sat Jan 30 20:28:18 1999
From: kb4mxo at mwt.net (Steve Gorkowski)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:28:18 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33163.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If one would come as a kit for under $200.00 with sensor. How many would
buy the kit ? No sense to design if one if no one was interested in a
wide O2 meter.

Steve

Mike Pitts wrote:

> Any interest?  Is this a waste of bandwidth?
>
> "This invention provides an self-calibrating buffer amplifier
> for a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor interface circuit
> which couples and processes a voltage signal proportional
> to pumping cell current to a level and reference voltage suitable
> for input to an A-to-D convertor. The goal of this invention is to
> increase the accuracy of air-to-fuel ratio control by continually
> correcting for the effects of offset quantities in the amplifier
> stage necessary to the interface circuitry. This goal is accomplished
> by an approach which effectively generates and subtracts these
> offset quantities from the processed signal. "
>
> http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=US05211154__
>
> -Mike





From synchris at ricochet.net  Sat Jan 30 20:29:22 1999
From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:29:22 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33164.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


At 02:01 PM 1/29/99 -0700, Greg Hermann wrote:

>>With this device a closed loop electrically controlled Fuel pressure
>>trimmer is possible, meaning big injectors, lower pressure at idle,
>>to help get reasonable pulse widths.
>>Bruce
>
>Hey--if you wanna do it right--use a rising rate regulator IN COMBINATION
>with a pwm voltage control to the fuel pump AND a calculated fuel pressure
>correction to the injector pw calc. It would hafta be a primary--secondary
>fuel pressure control loop to be stable--program what the fuel pump is
>supposed to do according to load/rpm ()with a look-up table), let the

My take on this is that the first level is a simple feedback loop,
adjuting fuel pump duty cycle to try and keep fuel pressure constant.
Also the usual pulsation damper (or whatever they're called), and
somewhere for vapor bubbles to go. A float valve sounds like the Right
Way, but it doesn't sound like they're easy to get, not ones that are
qualified for fuel rail duty anyway. How about just using a small
bleed orifice, like a nitrous jet, feeding the same old return line?
You'd end up with a *little* more fuel heating but it's cheap, easy
to do, safe, reliable, and the fuel vapor would have someplace to go.

That being said I don't think the first level is very good, because
the loop bandwidth will be low. Steady state is fine, transients, as
always, will be less good.

So next your *actual* fuel pressure becomes an input to the ECU, and
adjusts your injector pulse width. I think a somewhat larger than
usual pulsation damper might be good; fuel rail pressure probably
has a lot of the same pulation issues as intake manifold air.

The next stage is where Bruce wants to be, the desired fuel pressure
is settable, and the actual current fuel pressure is still used to
adjust injector PW. The *possible* shortfall here is when you suddenly
need a lot more fuel, but since you are still measuring FP it may not
be a big issue.

The next step from there would be to try and get better fuel pressure
response time, via a PID-controller type of setup. Use delta-MAP *
RPM or some other measure of changing load to try and put more power
thru the fuel pump *before* dropping fuel pressure tells you that
you need to. But either way you're still using the actual FP to
calc injector PW, so you're still way better off than before.

The reasons I don't think you need a mechanical regulator are
(1) You're already measuring FP to a high degree of accuracy. The
resultant injector PW is going to be a fair bit more accurate than
using a mechanical regulator and assuming it's keeping FP constant
within say +/- 0.5%. FP variation is somewhat inevitable, at least
now we can measure and correct for it.  (2) A large pulsation damper
gives me the feeling of a safety net wrt possibly large, very fast
FP changes caused by individual injectors opening and closing.
(Which may not be easily calculated out due to high BW.)

Now the next step is putting a fuel temp sensor just before the
rail and compensating for fuel temperature too...


Hell, I'm sold. Even if I can't get one of those specific Moto units,
I don't see why I can't get *something* to do the job, and a PWM
controller for the fuel pump is easy. A module from
www.powertrends.com is probably more than good enough. I'm just
glad this thread came up in time for me to use the ideas on my
current project engine.


   Chris C.



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sat Jan 30 20:29:38 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:29:38 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33165.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Mike Pitts wrote:

> >Electromotive and many other systems uses a wheel with many thoths,
> >it could give nice resolution for computing accleration, ...
> 
> Also, if it has enough teeth, you can detect weak cylinders 
> by comparing the waveform in the range of each cylinder. 
> (ie: the teeth will slow ever so slightly for when a weak cylinder 
> if firing)
> 

It is teeth every 6 degrees.  So there are quite a few teeth.  I
thought GM was using a wheel with 4 teeth (every 90 degrees) to catch
misfires, so every 6 degrees would seem to give really accurate info.

I have one of those trigger wheels.  Any ideal where I can get a crank
sensor and what I would have to do to it to make this work?   Run it
into an op-amp and amp the signal and then do something with it?  At
6000 rpm thought, those signals will be running at 3khz so an audio
recorder may be a problem, and a more exoitic signal recorder or
circuit may be required.

				Roger



From orin at wolfenet.com  Sat Jan 30 20:41:04 1999
From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:41:04 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33166.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


> Any interest?  Is this a waste of bandwidth?

Yes, keep them coming...

Orin.


From mpitts at emi.net  Sat Jan 30 21:32:21 1999
From: mpitts at emi.net (Mike Pitts)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:32:21 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33167.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>If one would come as a kit for under $200.00 with sensor. How 
>many would buy the kit ? No sense to design if one if no one 
>was interested in a wide O2 meter.

If it included an analog output, I would buy at least two for myself.  
I would like to have one permanently mounted in each of my two 
cars, with one of them feeding an input into the car's PCM.  If it 
was a readout only, I would still buy one for certain.  An analog 
output of 0-5 volts would be great, non-linear is fine as I could 
create a linearising table in eprom.

I can think of at least three other people locally who would also 
buy one immediately.

As long as these are truely accure wide-band sensors, you 
wouldn't be able to build enough of them to keep up with the 
demand I'm sure.

-Mike




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sat Jan 30 22:11:48 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:11:48 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33168.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


>
>The reasons I don't think you need a mechanical regulator are
>(1) You're already measuring FP to a high degree of accuracy. The
>resultant injector PW is going to be a fair bit more accurate than
>using a mechanical regulator and assuming it's keeping FP constant
>within say +/- 0.5%. FP variation is somewhat inevitable, at least
>now we can measure and correct for it.  (2) A large pulsation damper
>gives me the feeling of a safety net wrt possibly large, very fast
>FP changes caused by individual injectors opening and closing.
>(Which may not be easily calculated out due to high BW.)
>
>Now the next step is putting a fuel temp sensor just before the
>rail and compensating for fuel temperature too...

Hi Chris--
>
Ok--but watch it with your bigger pulsation damper--if you are going to
change fuel pressure with engine operating conditiona, a big capacitance
will screw up your response rate ROYALLY!!

Regards, Greg
>
>Hell, I'm sold. Even if I can't get one of those specific Moto units,
>I don't see why I can't get *something* to do the job, and a PWM
>controller for the fuel pump is easy. A module from
>www.powertrends.com is probably more than good enough. I'm just
>glad this thread came up in time for me to use the ideas on my
>current project engine.
>
>
>   Chris C.




From CEIJR at aol.com  Sat Jan 30 23:35:35 1999
From: CEIJR at aol.com (CEIJR at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:35:35 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33169.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Although not on this list any more, Gar is alive & well, as is EGOR. He
advised last month that EGOR is in the last stages of development for
commercial sale, using the NTK/Honda UEGO, with user choice of outputs. (See
EGOR archives)

														Charlie Iliff


From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Sat Jan 30 23:38:42 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:38:42 -0500
Subject: replace an EPROM with an EEPROM?
Message-ID: <mailman.33170.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



>Pinouts are different... 27C256 is a 28 pin, 28256 is a 32 pin...


But electrically would it work?, an adaptor would be no prob really.
I assume the extra pins are for re-programming?.
I agree with Ted, this method would save so much time.

>At 05:06 PM 1/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Has anyone tried to replace an Eprom with and EEprom?
>>Specifically, Replace the 27c256 in a Memcal with a 28256?
>>Does anyone know if it would work?  or is the pinout somehow different?
>>The reason I'm interested in doing this is because it would be more
economical
>>and efficient.
>>
>>Also, what do people do about removing and replacing their Eproms from the
>>Memcals when reprogramming them?  Do you solder in ZIF sockets?
>>
>>I want to start lookin at and modifying my Memcal, but have never done any
of
>>this stuff before.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ted
>
>===========================================================
>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be
approximated.
>===========================================================
>



From ponty at axis.jeack.com.au  Sat Jan 30 23:42:19 1999
From: ponty at axis.jeack.com.au (Ross Myers)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:42:19 -0500
Subject: Caddy Northstar PCM
Message-ID: <mailman.33171.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Having never seen a Northstar V8 up close (only in books), I have a few
questions on them.
Is the DFI on them the same as the Buick V-6 type but with an extra 2
coils?.
Are they Sequential Inj?.
Anybody seen the insides of one of the PCM's?.

Regards

Ross Myers




From mpiccioni at attcanada.net  Sun Jan 31 01:12:54 1999
From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:12:54 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.33172.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I will also be converting to EFI shortly and wonder if the following will 
work:

Use a low pressure electric pump mounted by the tank feeding forward to an 
insulated fuel resovoir ( say 1 liter in size) mounted in the engine 
compartment equipped with a float to keep the level constant. Then feed the 
high pressure pump locally from the bottom of the resovoir and route the 
regulator bypass outlet back to the top of the resovoir. The only problem 
that I can see is possibly vapour being trapped at the top of the tank.

----------
From: 	Fran and Bud[SMTP:quest100 at gte.net]
Sent: 	January 30, 1999 2:17 AM
To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: 	Re: fuel pumps

Best performance will be gained by mounting the pump low and as close to 
the
gas tank as possible, making the low pressure (inlet) flow circuit short.
Most pumps don't do well with suction, but are happy pushing all the gas
they can get.
----------
>From: "Mike Pilkenton" <mpilkent at ptw.com>
>To: "DIY-EFI" <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>, "4/6 Cyl. Performance"
<DomesticPerformance at onelist.com>
>Subject: fuel pumps
>Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999, 4:34 PM
>

>Well I'm deep into my engine conversion project and need to install an
>electric fuel pump for the EFI engine (3.1L V6).  Question is do I have to
>put the fuel pump back in the tank or can I install the pump up by the
>engine.  I know I need the high pressure type made for FI engines and not
>the carb (low pressure).  Mounting anaftermarket in-line pump up by the
>engine sure would be more convenient.  Any advice would be appreciated.
>
>Mike Pilkenton
>



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`
end



From amattei at mindspring.com  Sun Jan 31 01:51:41 1999
From: amattei at mindspring.com (Andrew K. Mattei)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:51:41 -0500
Subject: replace an EPROM with an EEPROM?
Message-ID: <mailman.33173.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Ross Myers wrote:
> 
> But electrically would it work?, an adaptor would be no prob really.
> I assume the extra pins are for re-programming?.
> I agree with Ted, this method would save so much time.

FWIW, check this out:

http://www.ldti.net/eep_prg.htm

(I'm considering one of these if my homebrew programmer doesn't pan out.
Still working on that, though :) ).

-Andrew


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 31 02:03:13 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:03:13 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.33174.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Piccioni <mpiccioni at attcanada.net>
To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: fuel pumps

I'm not being smart or a wise a--, but do you like fires?.
Have as absolutely few as possible connections, even, under the hood.
Use only AN Lines, and Fittings, and practice making a couple dozen lines
before you try it for the final fitting.
I've seen everything possible that could go wrong go wrong under the hood,
and way too many fires.
   Keeping the pump, filter, seperator, accumulator (mini storage tank) and
as much misc fuel stuff by the tank and away from any heat source.
Sorry to ramble I just hate engine fires
Bruce


>I will also be converting to EFI shortly and wonder if the following will
>work:
>
>Use a low pressure electric pump mounted by the tank feeding forward to an
>insulated fuel resovoir ( say 1 liter in size) mounted in the engine
>compartment equipped with a float to keep the level constant. Then feed the
>high pressure pump locally from the bottom of the resovoir and route the
>regulator bypass outlet back to the top of the resovoir. The only problem
>that I can see is possibly vapour being trapped at the top of the tank.
>
>----------
>From: Fran and Bud[SMTP:quest100 at gte.net]
>Sent: January 30, 1999 2:17 AM
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Re: fuel pumps
>
>Best performance will be gained by mounting the pump low and as close to
>the
>gas tank as possible, making the low pressure (inlet) flow circuit short.
>Most pumps don't do well with suction, but are happy pushing all the gas
>they can get.
>----------
>>From: "Mike Pilkenton" <mpilkent at ptw.com>
>>To: "DIY-EFI" <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>, "4/6 Cyl. Performance"
><DomesticPerformance at onelist.com>
>>Subject: fuel pumps
>>Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999, 4:34 PM
>>
>
>>Well I'm deep into my engine conversion project and need to install an
>>electric fuel pump for the EFI engine (3.1L V6).  Question is do I have to
>>put the fuel pump back in the tank or can I install the pump up by the
>>engine.  I know I need the high pressure type made for FI engines and not
>>the carb (low pressure).  Mounting anaftermarket in-line pump up by the
>>engine sure would be more convenient.  Any advice would be appreciated.
>>
>>Mike Pilkenton
>>
>
>
>
>



From kv at us.ibm.com  Sun Jan 31 02:04:05 1999
From: kv at us.ibm.com (kv at us.ibm.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:04:05 -0500
Subject: KS update...
Message-ID: <mailman.33175.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>





Haven't worked with Discrete IC's for awhile--- what is a 339?

Your welcome!

________________________________________________
  Kevin Vannorsdel     IBM Arm Electronics Development
   408-256-6492                Tie 276-6492     kv at us.ibm.com



Barry Tisdale <btisdale at cybersol.com> on 01/29/99 06:39:08 PM

Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu

To:   diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
cc:    (bcc: Kevin Vannorsdel/San Jose/IBM)
Subject:  KS update...





Added a 339 to the 555 KS display circuit - can now use the small AC signal
directly from the KS w/o any problems - lots easier than probing around the
ECM for hours.

Thanks for all the help offered - Barry





From q_chen at usa.net  Sun Jan 31 02:19:30 1999
From: q_chen at usa.net (Qiang Chen)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:19:30 -0500
Subject: Inquiry About Motorcycle EFI OEM Suppliers
Message-ID: <mailman.33176.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hello everybody,
Is there any body who can tell me some information on Motorcycle EFI
OEM suppliers, such as fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, injector
and senors.
I would be very grateful if you can send your email to q_chen at usa.net

Best regards,
Qiang Chen                         mailto:q_chen at usa.net




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan 31 02:55:50 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:55:50 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.33177.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>I will also be converting to EFI shortly and wonder if the following will
>work:
>
>Use a low pressure electric pump mounted by the tank feeding forward to an
>insulated fuel resovoir ( say 1 liter in size) mounted in the engine
>compartment equipped with a float to keep the level constant. Then feed the
>high pressure pump locally from the bottom of the resovoir and route the
>regulator bypass outlet back to the top of the resovoir. The only problem
>that I can see is possibly vapour being trapped at the top of the tank.

So put a small (like a holley #60 or so jet) for an orifice at the top of
the tank, and connect it to a return line back to the tank.

Greg
>
>----------
>From: 	Fran and Bud[SMTP:quest100 at gte.net]
>Sent: 	January 30, 1999 2:17 AM
>To: 	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: 	Re: fuel pumps
>
>Best performance will be gained by mounting the pump low and as close to
>the
>gas tank as possible, making the low pressure (inlet) flow circuit short.
>Most pumps don't do well with suction, but are happy pushing all the gas
>they can get.
>----------
>>From: "Mike Pilkenton" <mpilkent at ptw.com>
>>To: "DIY-EFI" <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>, "4/6 Cyl. Performance"
><DomesticPerformance at onelist.com>
>>Subject: fuel pumps
>>Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999, 4:34 PM
>>
>
>>Well I'm deep into my engine conversion project and need to install an
>>electric fuel pump for the EFI engine (3.1L V6).  Question is do I have to
>>put the fuel pump back in the tank or can I install the pump up by the
>>engine.  I know I need the high pressure type made for FI engines and not
>>the carb (low pressure).  Mounting anaftermarket in-line pump up by the
>>engine sure would be more convenient.  Any advice would be appreciated.
>>
>>Mike Pilkenton
>>
>
>
>
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>end




From gem at alphalink.com.au  Sun Jan 31 03:16:51 1999
From: gem at alphalink.com.au (paul)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:16:51 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33178.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi all,
        Any idea how much the EGOR would cost?
        In another message someone mentioned building something for under
$200 .Would this be a wide range sensor and viewed on an LCD screen? Could
a PIC be used to read the info and send it to the screen?        
PAUL

----------
> From: CEIJR at aol.com
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff
> Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 10:34 AM
> 
> Although not on this list any more, Gar is alive & well, as is EGOR. He
> advised last month that EGOR is in the last stages of development for
> commercial sale, using the NTK/Honda UEGO, with user choice of outputs.
(See
> EGOR archives)
> 
> 														Charlie Iliff


From ECMnut at aol.com  Sun Jan 31 03:37:17 1999
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:37:17 -0500
Subject: Need some C source to read a chip file..
Message-ID: <mailman.33179.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hoday,
I'm learning C  *VERY* slowly.
Does anyone have a sample of a program or subroutine that
reads a an ERPOM image file into an array or (?).....
Thanks for any guidance..
Mike V
Microsoft C ++ 6.0 newbie


From quest100 at gte.net  Sun Jan 31 03:57:52 1999
From: quest100 at gte.net (Fran and Bud)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:57:52 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.33180.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Marc,
Using a low pressure electric pump to fill a reservoir that then supplies a
high pressure pump that feeds the fuel rails is often used when converting
an old mechanical FI to EFI.  The pressure regulator or pressure relief
valve routes the return fuel from the rails back to the reservoir.
(Pretty much as you outlined) This combination can be made to work very
well. 
   
In such systems the reservoir is configured to act as a liquid-vapor
separator with the vapor coming off the top and being returned to the gas
tank through a low pressure check valve or back pressure regulator.  In a
configuration like this, the electric pump is mounted below and close to the
reservoir which it thinks is the fuel tank, so that it always has a good
head pressure at the pump inlet. The pressure on the top of the reservoir
(back pressure from the check valve) also assists in assuring a good supply
to the pump, and at the same time the vapor returns to the rear fuel tank
which is still vented. One advantage of this approach is that even if the
fuel tank level gets so low that the low pressure pump picks up air, the air
only gets as far as the reservoir where it returns off the top and  back to
the tank - and the high pressure pump never sees air until you are bone dry.

If the reservoir is fabricated with a flat side, a regular Holley float bowl
can be fitted to provide the needle valve and float mechanisms so that you
don't have to make everything.

The conversions of mechanical FI sometimes use a mechanical FI fuel pump as
the high pressure pump to feed the rails. Starting and tuning become quite
complex since mechanical pumps are generally positive displacement and the
faster they are turned the more fuel they deliver and the higher the
pressure until the regulator or relief valve opens. Sometimes a second low
pressure pump is required to provide pressure for starting until the
mechanical pump takes over.

The only down side to all of this is that it is much more complex and costly
to do right.  Spring rates in check valves, regulators, back pressure
regulators, and relief valves have to be played with depending on what
components are used, lots of tinkering time, development, etc.   

But if you use a normal EFI approach, and address only the fuel delivery
system (as you outlined) you should have no more problems than any EFI and
will avoid the problems of vapor, low fuel tank levels, and air pickup
during cornering/slosh. The reservoir design should have 1) a low or bottom
outlet for the high pressure pump feed, 2) baffled areas for the low
pressure supply and the rail return to enter near the bottom but not where
they could interfere with the feed to the high pressure pump 3) a top outlet
for the vapor return to the tank and 4)possibly another top outlet for a
pressure gage.

DONT FORGET to assure that the reservoir supply and the return from the
rails enter the reservoir into/under liquid and not into the air space above
the liquid.  Same would go for a fuel return line that was routed back into
the tank (if there was no reservoir).  OK for the vapor return line to enter
high but the returning gasoline should always return to near the bottom. 
Static electricity/spark reasons)

Most of this stuff is is "old time racer" lore learned the hard way on
mechanical FI systems, not on EFI, but the gasoline doesn't know the
difference - except that it is being delivered more accurately with EFI.
Bud
----------
>From: Marc Piccioni <mpiccioni at attcanada.net>
>To: "'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Subject: RE: fuel pumps
>Date: Sun, Jan 31, 1999, 1:15 AM
>

>I will also be converting to EFI shortly and wonder if the following will 
>work:
>
>Use a low pressure electric pump mounted by the tank feeding forward to an 
>insulated fuel resovoir ( say 1 liter in size) mounted in the engine 
>compartment equipped with a float to keep the level constant. Then feed the 
>high pressure pump locally from the bottom of the resovoir and route the 
>regulator bypass outlet back to the top of the resovoir. The only problem 
>that I can see is possibly vapour being trapped at the top of the tank.
>
>----------
>From:  Fran and Bud[SMTP:quest100 at gte.net]
>Sent:  January 30, 1999 2:17 AM
>To:  diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject:  Re: fuel pumps
>
>Best performance will be gained by mounting the pump low and as close to 
>the
>gas tank as possible, making the low pressure (inlet) flow circuit short.
>Most pumps don't do well with suction, but are happy pushing all the gas
>they can get.
>----------
>>From: "Mike Pilkenton" <mpilkent at ptw.com>
>>To: "DIY-EFI" <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>, "4/6 Cyl. Performance"
><DomesticPerformance at onelist.com>
>>Subject: fuel pumps
>>Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999, 4:34 PM
>>
>
>>Well I'm deep into my engine conversion project and need to install an
>>electric fuel pump for the EFI engine (3.1L V6).  Question is do I have to
>>put the fuel pump back in the tank or can I install the pump up by the
>>engine.  I know I need the high pressure type made for FI engines and not
>>the carb (low pressure).  Mounting anaftermarket in-line pump up by the
>>engine sure would be more convenient.  Any advice would be appreciated.
>>
>>Mike Pilkenton
>>
>
>


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Sun Jan 31 04:20:36 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:20:36 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33181.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I would buy one.  Of course, if I happen to "stumble" across a design
before the kit is available, I would simply build it myself.  The
circuitry on a UEGO isn't all that complicated.  In its most basic form,
it is a single op-amp and a few discretes.  Add a few more components for
a double-ended power supply, something to shut off the ion pump when it's
not warm, something to regulate the heater, and you have it.

Ray Drouillard


On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:25:13 -0600 Steve Gorkowski <kb4mxo at mwt.net>
writes:
>If one would come as a kit for under $200.00 with sensor. How many 
>would
>buy the kit ? No sense to design if one if no one was interested in a
>wide O2 meter.
>
>Steve
>
>Mike Pitts wrote:
>
>> Any interest?  Is this a waste of bandwidth?
>>
>> "This invention provides an self-calibrating buffer amplifier
>> for a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor interface circuit
>> which couples and processes a voltage signal proportional
>> to pumping cell current to a level and reference voltage suitable
>> for input to an A-to-D convertor. The goal of this invention is to
>> increase the accuracy of air-to-fuel ratio control by continually
>> correcting for the effects of offset quantities in the amplifier
>> stage necessary to the interface circuitry. This goal is 
>accomplished
>> by an approach which effectively generates and subtracts these
>> offset quantities from the processed signal. "
>>
>> http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=US05211154__
>>
>> -Mike
>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Sun Jan 31 04:44:28 1999
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:44:28 -0500
Subject: Lambda Valve
Message-ID: <mailman.33182.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Before anyone else runs off into fantasy land, it might help to know what a
"Lambda Valve" is.   What it most definitely is not is a Fuel Pressure
Regulator in any classical sense.

Control fuel comes from the pump thrum the control pressure regulator - which
varies CONTROL fuel pressure with coolant temperature and sometimes manifold
pressure.   Also known as warm up regulator.  In parallel with the lower
control chambers in the fuel distributer is the Lambda Valve.  It looks
similar to a Fuel Injector but its not.  It opens and closes in a similar
manner, but its opening and closing do not meter fuel.  Rather the amount of
time the valve remains open - bleeding control fuel back to the tank -
controls the pressure in the lower chambers of the differential pressure
valves.  This in turn, changes upper chamber pressure to change the pressure
drop and change enrichment.

Simple terms - its a solenoid valve - pure plain and simple.  Its on time is
determined by the pulse width.  Open Closed.   That's it that's all there is.


But - it can be used for anything you want.  A Frequency/Pulse width modulated
valve that can handle up to about 100 PSI.   Think about it - you might come
up with a dark side idea.


1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"

Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 31 04:46:30 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:46:30 -0500
Subject: Timing Map
Message-ID: <mailman.33183.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

If someone was looking at a say 1989 350 CID stock Firebird
auto trans, ie 1227165 ecm, MAF the timing table might look
something like this.  Again, for educational purposes for understanding
engine management.

RPM    32   48   64   80   96   112  128   144   160   176   192   208
 400     18   18   18   18   18   19     20    22      21     20     20
20
 600     16   16   16   16   17   18     20    21      21     20     20
20
 800     15   15   15   15   15   18     20    21      22     21     21
21
1000    18   21   25   25   26   26     23   23       23     19     19
19
1200    19   24   28   28   27   22    19    18       18     16     16
16
1400    20   26   31   31   31   28    24    22       22     19     19
19
1600    21   36   36   34   34   33    30    26       23     22     22
22
1800    23   33   36   36   35   34    33    26       23     22     22
22
2000    23   33   36   36   36   35    33    30       26     24     22
22
2200    23   33   36   36   36   36    34    33       29     24     22
22
2400    23   33   36   36   36   36    35    29       26     24     22
22
2800    23   33   36   36   36   36    35    28       24     20     20
20
3200    23   33   36   36   36   36    33    28       23     21     20
20
3600    25   34   38   38   38   36    32    27       24     22     20
20
4000    25   27   30   34   34   36    33    28       25     22     20
20
4400    25   34   38   38   38   36    32    28       24     24     23
23
4800    34   40   40   40   40   38    35    32       29     25     23
23

Spark Adders

400     2
1200   4
2000   5
3200   6
4800   8

If you don't understand all of what your looking at please refer to
programming 101.
  Being maf, the fuel stuff is rather meaningless to stare at,
I got some other chev stuff, that will probably be fortcoming, but
I'd really hope some DFIer, FP SEFI, HALTECHer would post some
of their maps..
Cheers
Bruce



From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 31 05:04:06 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:04:06 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33184.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond C Drouillard <cosmic.ray at juno.com>
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff

Gee, sounds so easy.  Hmm, care to whip up a ION?.
I certainly hope you weren't making light of Steve's work.
Bruce


>I would buy one.  Of course, if I happen to "stumble" across a design
>before the kit is available, I would simply build it myself.  The
>circuitry on a UEGO isn't all that complicated.  In its most basic form,
>it is a single op-amp and a few discretes.  Add a few more components for
>a double-ended power supply, something to shut off the ion pump when it's
>not warm, something to regulate the heater, and you have it.
>
>Ray Drouillard
>
>
>On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:25:13 -0600 Steve Gorkowski <kb4mxo at mwt.net>
>writes:
>>If one would come as a kit for under $200.00 with sensor. How many 
>>would
>>buy the kit ? No sense to design if one if no one was interested in a
>>wide O2 meter.
>>
>>Steve
>>
>>Mike Pitts wrote:
>>
>>> Any interest?  Is this a waste of bandwidth?
>>>
>>> "This invention provides an self-calibrating buffer amplifier
>>> for a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor interface circuit
>>> which couples and processes a voltage signal proportional
>>> to pumping cell current to a level and reference voltage suitable
>>> for input to an A-to-D convertor. The goal of this invention is to
>>> increase the accuracy of air-to-fuel ratio control by continually
>>> correcting for the effects of offset quantities in the amplifier
>>> stage necessary to the interface circuitry. This goal is 
>>accomplished
>>> by an approach which effectively generates and subtracts these
>>> offset quantities from the processed signal. "
>>>
>>> http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=US05211154__
>>>
>>> -Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>



From synchris at ricochet.net  Sun Jan 31 06:55:24 1999
From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 01:55:24 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33185.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

At 02:25 PM 1/30/99 -0600, you wrote:

>If one would come as a kit for under $200.00 with sensor. How many would
>buy the kit ? No sense to design if one if no one was interested in a
>wide O2 meter.

If you wanted, I'd be willing to help with the circuit design. It
may be more complicated than people have made it sound, but from the
info posted lately it sounds very doable and kinda fun even. :)
>From the sound of it I doubt you need help, but if you did want any
for some reason, feel free to drop me a line.

And what the other guy said about not being able to build them
fast enough (at $200) is entirely true.

   Chris Conlon



From clive at problem.tantech.com  Sun Jan 31 07:28:24 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 02:28:24 -0500
Subject: Astro/Safari fuel pump replacement
Message-ID: <mailman.33186.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>



anyone know what otehr GM pumps fit a 86 with TBI
can I drop an entire SS454 or Z28 setup in?

Clive 



From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jan 31 09:42:04 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:42:04 -0500
Subject: Is your car Y2K Ready?
Message-ID: <mailman.33187.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> I called these guys outta curiousity... he was pretty decent with me.  Said
> that 98% of the cars are OK but some luxury cars (GM)  (like Caddy)  report
> the date to test equipment during diagnostics...   apparently this is kept
> in the "Body Control Module"-  and will need some sort of upgrade when Y2K
> rolls around...
> 
> I told him I couldn't even keep the clock right on my radio---  he
> chuckled!
> 
The SAE code is 8 bit BCD 0-99 also a elasped year of 0-255
which listed under driver information, status = $F9 reset= $F8
for a J1850 OBD bus. There could be manufacture defined formats
or internal timers not on bus.
alex
alex 


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jan 31 09:42:36 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:42:36 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33188.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> About 6 - 8 years ago (?) in Road & Track there was a Tech Tidbit
> (or some such) article about accelerometers / stopwatch / coastdown
> to determine rolling and wind resistance and horsepower. Does
> anybody have the reference?
> 
> TIA,
> Jay
> 
Power  is change in kinetic energy over a time 
1/2*m*(v^2f-vi^2) /t   where vf is final velocity 
vi=initial velocity  m = mass of car and  t=time
potential energy= 0 
alex
alex 
 


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jan 31 09:42:37 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:42:37 -0500
Subject: Honda ident. request
Message-ID: <mailman.33189.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> >The Honda Part Number 36531-P07-003 used in the 92-95 VTEC
> >Civics are 5 wire.  There are seven pins in the connector, 2 being
> >for a "calibration" resistor.
> >  Where is the error here?.
> >Bruce
> 
> Do not believe there is one, Bruce.
> 
> Regards, Greg
> >
> >The LAF Sensor currently is used only on the lean burn Civic which
> >were:
> >92-95 VX
> >96-98 HX
> >All LAF sensors are 7 wire.
> 
The sensor could be designed for lean operation only, wide range
sensors were developed from the lean burn sensor at least from
a SAE paper i read on toyota development.
alex


From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jan 31 09:42:39 1999
From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:42:39 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33190.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> >I know Toyota uses the system in the 1ZZ-FE and claims lower evap
> >emissions as the reason, FWIW. Less vapor lock?
> 
> DO NOT let mfgr BS about less evap emissions get confused with getting the
> vapor bubbles out of the fuel rails!!!
> 
The evap. test has been increased from 1 hr to 3 days so is more 
difficult to past.  Does any one know where i can get a low 
permeation fuel neck hose?
alex


From kb4mxo at mwt.net  Sun Jan 31 13:26:17 1999
From: kb4mxo at mwt.net (Steve Gorkowski)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:26:17 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33191.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

I am glad the wide o2 project  (with all the greatly appreciated help from
all the members and nonmembers)  has interest and will be given to members
when it is done with code. I  would like to see PC boards made for those who
just want to build one. That was the reason for the question to see if there
is enough interest to justify boards built.   I am using a pic 54 and later a
84 flash chip and was looking at sending the a/f data out a serial port and
let the analog guys tap off the 0 to 5v  out for analog control .

Thanks for your help

Steve



From dzorde at geocities.com  Sun Jan 31 13:47:59 1999
From: dzorde at geocities.com (dzorde)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:47:59 -0500
Subject: EFI Questions
Message-ID: <mailman.33192.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

See what you mean.  In an OEM situations this actually seem like a very
valid explanation.  As my ecu is purely an aftermarket unit designed with
racing in mind it would then seem logical to not include this as the cars
would not have cats on them and hence this could very well be why I'm just
reading an initial lean on coast down until the engine requirements catch up
to what the ecu is feeding it.  Meaning that my system is actually
functioning correctly.

Dan     dzorde at soanar.com.au

-----Original Message-----
From:	ECMnut at aol.com [SMTP:ECMnut at aol.com]
Sent:	Friday, January 29, 1999 9:56 PM
To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject:	Re: EFI Questions

Hi Dan,
 I believe most of the GM stuff shuts off the injectors for 
"coast down" conditions, but  they give a *blip* of max pulse 
width, once in a while, just to supply some fuel to keep the 
convertor lit.  
 I was recording dragstrip runs with a diacom, and could not 
figure out what was causing the injector pulse to spike from zero
 to 32ms(!) while coasting down at the end of the runs..
At 4000 rpm, that is something like 4 Revolutions of full
time injector spray.. I have a speed density 6cyl, 
where all of the injectors fire together....
I have a graph of a run at the bottom of the page, at
 http://www.enzoco.com/mike/syclone/monitor.htm
It is a tall page, so scroll downward if you are interested..
HTH
Mike V



From dzorde at geocities.com  Sun Jan 31 13:48:08 1999
From: dzorde at geocities.com (dzorde)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:48:08 -0500
Subject: EFI Questions
Message-ID: <mailman.33193.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Hi Bruce,

Its times like this I wish I had a digital camera.  Anyway, cooling temp is
84C (180F thermostat from memory).  I don't think I'm on too much advance
(8deg @1000rpm), although I have never checked what the total advance is at
max rpm.  But I do know anymore and it pings.  The greyness is close to the
light grey used in the Windows menu bars with a brown tint appearing.  I've
tried retarding the timing, which does result in the cars seeming slower to
work its ways through the revs.

But this keeps me getting back to the compression. The fact that the car
won't run properly if I reduce the fuel delivery (even though still reading
rich), could that be due to the extremely high compression ?

Dan     dzorde at soanar.com.au

-----Original Message-----
From:	Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
Sent:	Saturday, January 30, 1999 3:33 AM
To:	diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject:	Re: RE:EFI Questions


>Tried the plug cuts.  Looks nice and clean (no detonation) but I already
>know that its OK on avgas.  Plugs are a medium grey, with probably a slight
>browning of the ceramic tip (NGK BP6S plugs).  And yet the car is still
>running very rich (I think around 0.8-0.9V is rich).  So how does a plug
>look like its OK and yet all other indications are that its rich (got me
>puzzled) ?

Depending on the grayness, you might be running too much timing
too rich.  The gray is a sign of a sooty flame, meaning excess fuel,
running extra timing makes the motor seem like it's pulling better.
What for cooling temp ya running?.
Remember, I'm an ocean away and can't see you plugs, and just
trying to work off of what your reporting.
Bruce



From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us  Sun Jan 31 15:00:15 1999
From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:00:15 -0500
Subject: Code Tweaking (Was Cubic Dollars)
Message-ID: <mailman.33194.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-> "tweaked" by individuals. It seems he had a client that was being
-> sued for selling performance chips. This nut case initiating the
-> suit, claimed he "invented" performance chips in 1994 or something.
-> He told me this 'nut' had even gone to try and sue GM for tweaking on
-> their code.

 Jeez, sounds like Electromotive!
                                                                                                   


From clive at problem.tantech.com  Sun Jan 31 19:30:06 1999
From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps   Techno-Logicals   416 510 0020)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:30:06 -0500
Subject: Different Strokes
Message-ID: <mailman.33195.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> 
> Hi David,
>        It has been my experience that it does take less time for the engine to
> accelerate with a shorter stroke,,,but like you said the larger cu in will
> give more streetable torque and that would probably be the trade off I would
> take if I already had the parts as you do.....The biggest downfall of the 4"
> arm is the fact that you have very little(if any...was this 350 mains or 400?)
> journal overlap and if you are planning to make alot of hp(1000+) and/or
> rpm,,expect this crank to crack probably after 30 1/4 mile blasts.....just
> some experience....hth's
> -Carl Summers


build the 434
the torque of the large engine will do wonders to hide the turbo lag
limit RPM to about 5500-6000 max on the street and size to turbo to fit the
the application
you are probably looking for ~500 HP so find a trubo that can produce enough
airflow to make the 500-600 HP range and install it to spool up fast

Clive 


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 31 19:58:04 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:58:04 -0500
Subject: Maps r Us
Message-ID: <mailman.33196.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Here's a couple more,
If one was to look at a 92 v-8 1227730 ecm'd MAP application,
it might look like this.
Again educational purposes, for understanding engine management
principles only.

RPM
            20    30    40    50    60   70   75    80   85   90  95  100 
400     20    20    20    20    20   20   20    20   20   20  20   20
6         20    20    20    20    20   20   20    20   20   20  20   20
8         20    20    24    24    24   24   23    22   21   20  20   20
1000  20    23    26    26    26   24   23    22   21   20  20   20
12       20   25    28    28    28   26   25    24    23   22  21   20
14       20   25    32    32    32   29   27    24   23    20  20   20
16       20   34    36    33    32   29   27    24   23    21  20   20   
18       30   34    37    34    34   32   30    28   26    24  20   20
20       30   34    38    36    36   33   32    30   27    24  21   20
22       30   34    38    36    36   35   31    28   25    23  22   20
24       30   34    38    36    36   32   29    28   26    22  21   19
28       30   34    38    35    35   30   27    25   24    21  19   18
32       30   34    38    34    34   27   24    23   21    19  18   19
36       30   34    38    38    34   28   26    24   22    20   20  19
40       30   35    40    40    34   28   28    26   22    22   20  20
44       40   40   40     40    40   36   32    30   28    26   26  26
48       40   40   40     40    40   36   32    30   28    26   26  26
52       40   40   40     40    40   36   32    30   28    26   26  26

Spark Adders
400    0
1200  0
2000  1
3200  2
4800  4

Cheers
Doc



From alipper at cardozo.org  Sun Jan 31 20:20:44 1999
From: alipper at cardozo.org (Al Lipper)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:20:44 -0500
Subject: ECU6 8051 assembly routines
Message-ID: <mailman.33197.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

--=====================_98831695==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wayne, I've attached the latest software.  Basically, we need the routines
in EFI02.ASM adapted from the Intel 80C51GB to the Phillips 80C552.  The
key routines are the ones that deal with the Intel's PCA - these need to
work with the Phillip's Capture/compare.  These are the RPM, Injector
turn-off and async injector pulse routines.  If you have some time to work
on it, that would be great.  Perhaps we can find someone else to help with
other parts of it also.  Just as a note, the hardware for the next version
ECU7, is almost complete.  Thanks.


			Al

BTW, if you need the assember, it's in the ZIP of all the EFI system files
(includes all the software) at: http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/

At 02:52 PM 1/19/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Al 
>
>I wrote 8051 assembler for phillips and intel variants 5 or 6 years ago.
>I think you mentioned basic, C but  would be nice.
>Are you looking for some one with development tools.
>What needs doing ?
>I dunno how much time you need.
>

--=====================_98831695==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="EFI02.asm"

$NOPAGING
; 6/7/97 - added WDT routines
; efi00.asm     950204RHAL

;       ASM routines for Electronic Fuel Injection System.
;       Includes ISRs for RPM and injector pulsing.


; Using the 87C51GB.
$MOD51GB


;*************************************************************************

; Memory useage, Variable declaration, and Vector tables--

r0b0       equ    00h           ; Register R0, Bank0
r1b0       equ    01h           ; Register R1, Bank0

; Variables for use in/with ASM routines.

;       Note: Internal bits 00-0F use internal memory locations 20 and 21.
;       Internal Bits 00-07 for ASM only flags.

;       Internal Bits 08-0F for BASIC/ASM flags.
SP_SYNC    BIT    008h                  ; Set when Injector Pulse is to be
					;   Synchronized with Spark Pulse.
					;   Written by Main loop.  EX_ASYNC
					;   must be called by main loop when
					;   this value is changed.

;       Direct addresses 18H-21H of Internal RAM for BASIC/ASM variables.
;       These addresses are not used by the compiler
; External addresses FFF0-FFFF are used to transfer data to BASIC
OLD_CCAP0  DATA   018h                  ; Previous PCA0 capture value, 2
					;   bytes (lo-hi).  Used to compute
					;   Spark Pulse period.  Used only
					;   in ISR (Static Local).

PW1        DATA   01Ah                  ; Injector Pulse Width (count for
					;   PCA1), 2 bytes (lo-hi).  Data is
					;   passed from Main to ISR here.
					;   Main loop should clear EC0 when
					;   when writing these bytes.
RPMPW      DATA   01Ch                  ; Spark Pulse period, 2 bytes.  Data
					;   is passed from ISR to Main here.
					;   Main loop should clear EC0 when
					;   when reading these bytes.
APP        DATA   01Eh                  ; Async Injector Pulse Period.  Data
					;   is passed form Main to ISR here.
					;   Main loop should clear EC0 when
					;   when writing these bytes.
TICK15     XDATA   0FFF6H               ; Two byte counter, incremented
					;   every 15ms by WDT_ISR: for use by
					;   BASIC program in timed operations.

; A/D Converter addresses
ADC_0        DATA   084h                  ; A/D Converter channel 0
ADC_1        DATA   094h                  ; A/D Converter channel 1
ADC_2        DATA   0A4h                  ; A/D Converter channel 2
ADC_3        DATA   0B4h                  ; A/D Converter channel 3
ADC_4        DATA   0C4h                  ; A/D Converter channel 4
ADC_5        DATA   0D4h                  ; A/D Converter channel 5
ADC_6        DATA   0E4h                  ; A/D Converter channel 6
ADC_7        DATA   0F4h                  ; A/D Converter channel 7
ACON       DATA   097h                  ; A/D Converter control register
;A/D Converter uses FFF8-FFFF as mirror locations for the above registers
ADC_MIRR   XDATA  0FFF8h                ; A/D Mirror for transfer to BASIC

; Enter values into Interrupt Vector "Mirror."
	   ORG  0FE00H                  ; RESET VECTOR
	   JMP  WDT_INIT                ; INIT TIMER 0 FOR WDT RESET
	   ORG  0FE0Bh                  ; Timer 0           TF0
	   LJMP WDT_ISR                 ; WATCHDOG TIMER (WDT) ISR
	   ORG  0FE33h                  ; PCA INTERRUPT VECTOR LOCATION
	   LJMP ISR_PCA                 ; Jump to PCA Interrupt Handler.

;*************************************************************************

; BASIC call vectors--

	   ORG  0FE50H                  ; Put at very top of code memory
				     ; (must be decreased if code is expanded)

	   AJMP INIT                	; Init routine.
	   AJMP READ_ADC                ; Read A/D Converter
	   AJMP EX_ASYNC                ; Handle change of SP_SYNC.
	   AJMP IAC_HIGHER		; IAC motor init for higher idle
	   AJMP IAC_LOWER		; IAC motor init for lower idle
	   AJMP IAC_STEP		; Step IAC motor in selected direction
	   AJMP IAC_OFF			; Turn off power to IAC motor (doesn't move)

;*************************************************************************

; Startup routines--

    INIT:  				; Init stuff for ASM routines.
 setb p4.0    ;debug
	   MOV	IP,#01000010b           ; Set PPC and PT0 (PCA0 2nd, Timer0 1st)
	   MOV  IE,#11000010b           ; Enable global (EA), PCA (EC) and TIMER0 (ET0) ints.

	   MOV  CMOD,#00               ; Setup PCA Counter Mode. (f.osc/12)
	   MOV  CCON,#01000000b        ; Enable PCA counter (CR)
	   MOV  CCAPM0,#00100001b       ; Set PCA0 Mode: Capture positive
					;  edge and enable PCA interrupt.
	   SETB  SP_SYNC                ; Set flag to sync mode initially
	   ACALL EX_ASYNC               ; Set sync mode (based on flag)

	   MOV  DPTR, #TICK15           ; Clear 2 BASIC counter register
	   MOV  A, #00                  ;   bytes.
	   MOVX @DPTR, A                ;   Clear the first byte...
	   INC DPTR                     ;   then clear the second byte.
	   MOVX @DPTR, A                ; 

	   MOV  ACON,#00010000b         ; Enable A/D Converter

; Setup I/O ports.  Inputs must be set to 1 before they will work.
; See "8051 IO Ports.xls" for specific pin functions.
	   SETB P1.0	; Cranking
	   SETB P1.1	; Key on
	   SETB P1.3	; SP in	   
	   SETB P3.2	; External Int 0
	   SETB P3.4	; A/C on
	   SETB P5.2	; DIP SW 2
	   SETB P5.3	; DIP SW 1

  clr p4.0     ;debug
	   RET

;*************************************************************************

; Main Loop subroutines--

; ASM routine called by BASIC to start or end Async Injection Mode based on
;   Async Mode flag, must be called when ever SP_SYNC is changed.

EX_ASYNC:
;  setb p4.1    ;debug
	   MOV  CCAPM3,#0               ; Disable PCA3.
	   JB   SP_SYNC,EA_OFF          ; Check Sync Mode Flag.
					; Startup Async Mode.
	   CLR  CCF3                    ;    Clear any pending IRQ for PCA3.
	   MOV  CCAP3L,#0               ;    Setup Compare Register with
	   MOV  A,CH                    ;      0.25-0.51 ms from now to start
	   ADD  A,#2                    ;      1st Async pulse.
	   MOV  CCAP3H,A
	   MOV  CCAPM3,#01001001b       ;    Set PCA3 for Compare Mode and 
					;      Enable Interrupt.
EA_OFF:
;    clr p4.1     ;debug
	   RET                          ; Done.


; Read AD Converter and store in mirror locations (ADCMIRR..ADCMIRR+7) since 
; the internal locations which contain the registers are not accesible from
; from BASIC.

READ_ADC:  PUSH ACC
	   PUSH DPL
	   PUSH DPH
	   PUSH PSW

	   MOV  DPTR,#ADC_MIRR          ; Put first mirror address in DPTR
	   MOV  A,ADC_0         ; Read A/D Channel 0
	   MOVX @DPTR,A                 ; Save channel 0 to mirror location
	   MOV  A,ADC_1         ; Read A/D Channel 1
	   INC  DPTR                    ; Increment mirror address
	   MOVX @DPTR,A                 ; Save channel 1 to mirror location
	   MOV  A,ADC_2         ; Read A/D Channel 2
	   INC  DPTR                    ; Increment mirror address
	   MOVX @DPTR,A                 ; Save channel 2 to mirror location
	   MOV  A,ADC_3         ; Read A/D Channel 3
	   INC  DPTR                    ; Increment mirror address
	   MOVX @DPTR,A                 ; Save channel 3 to mirror location
	   MOV  A,ADC_4         ; Read A/D Channel 4
	   INC  DPTR                    ; Increment mirror address
	   MOVX @DPTR,A                 ; Save channel 4 to mirror location
	   MOV  A,ADC_5         ; Read A/D Channel 5
	   INC  DPTR                    ; Increment mirror address
	   MOVX @DPTR,A                 ; Save channel 5 to mirror location
	   MOV  A,ADC_6         ; Read A/D Channel 6
	   INC  DPTR                    ; Increment mirror address
	   MOVX @DPTR,A                 ; Save channel 6 to mirror location
	   MOV  A,ADC_7         ; Read A/D Channel 7
	   INC  DPTR                    ; Increment mirror address
	   MOVX @DPTR,A                 ; Save channel 7 to mirror location

	   POP	PSW
	   POP  DPH
	   POP  DPL
	   POP  ACC
	   RET


;*************************************************************************

; Interrupt Service Routines--

; Interrupt Service Routine for all PCA interrupts.  Determines which
; PCA generated the int. and jumps to the corresponding routine.

ISR_PCA:
	   JBC  CCF0,ISR_PCA0           ; Check & clear flag for PCA0.
	   JBC  CCF1,ISR_PCA1           ;   etc.
	   JBC  CCF3,ISR_PCA3
	   RETI                         ; Others are not used.


; Interrupt Service Routine for End of Injection Pulse -- PCA 1 (Inj 1).
; PCA 2 (Inj 2) is not currently used as an independent timer, but just as a
; single bit output based on the timer used by inj. 1.
ISR_PCA1:  MOV  CCAPM1,#0               ; Disable PCA Module 1. Turn off inj. #1
	   CLR	P1.5			; Turn off Inj. #2
	   RETI                         ; Return from Interrupt.


; Interrupt Service Routine for Starting Async Injection Pulses -- PCA3.
ISR_PCA3:  
 ;setb p4.3 ; debug
	   PUSH PSW                     ; Save registers.
	   PUSH ACC

	   ACALL SETPW                  ; Handle Starting Output Pulse.
	   
	   MOV  A,APP                   ; Set up this PCA for the next Async 
	   ADD  A,CCAP3L                ;   Pulse.
	   MOV  CCAP3L,A                ;    Add Async period to last time
	   MOV  A,APP+1                 ;      for next time.  Also, note
	   ADDC A,CCAP3H                ;      that PCA Compare is disabled
	   MOV  CCAP3H,A                ;      by hardware between write of
					;      low and high CAP bytes.
 ;clr p4.3 ; debug
	   AJMP IP0_RTI                 ; Done, restore registers and return
					;   from interrupt.


; Interrupt Service Routine for Spark Timing (RPM) -- PCA 0.  Also starts
;   Injection Pulse when in Synchronous Mode.

ISR_PCA0:  PUSH PSW                     ; Save registers.
	   PUSH ACC
setb p4.2
	   JNB  SP_SYNC,IP0_RPM         ; If in Async mode, skip output
					;   pulse.

	   ACALL SETPW                  ; Handle Starting Output Pulse.
	   
IP0_RPM:   CLR  C                       ; Compute RPM Pulse Width.
	   MOV  A,CCAP0L                ;    RPMPW = CCAP0 - OLD_CCAP0
	   SUBB A,OLD_CCAP0             ;      (16-bit subtract)
	   MOV  RPMPW,A
	   MOV  A,CCAP0H                ;       Do MSB.
	   SUBB A,OLD_CCAP0+1
	   MOV  RPMPW+1,A
	   MOV  OLD_CCAP0,CCAP0L        ;    Save CCAP0 for next time.
	   MOV  OLD_CCAP0+1,CCAP0H

IP0_RTI:   POP  ACC                     ; Restore registers.
	   POP  PSW
clr p4.2  ; debug
	   RETI                         ; Return from Interrupt.


; Handle Starting an Output Pulse.  Common to ISR_PCA0 & ISR_PCA3.

SETPW:                                  ; Test for zero output pulse width.
 setb p4.4 ; debug
	   MOV  A,PW1                   ;    Get LSB of PW.
	   JNZ  SPW_SETPW               ;    If not zero, setup PW.
	   MOV  A,PW1+1                 ;    Get MSB of PW.
	   JZ   SPW_DONE                ;    If zero, skip PW.
	   MOV  A,PW1                   ;    Get LSB of PW.

SPW_SETPW: 
	   SETB CEX1                    ; Start output pulse. Turn on inj. #1
	   SETB P1.5			; Turn on Inj. #2
	   JNB  SP_SYNC,SPW_ASYN        ; Handle PW for Sync Mode.

SPW_SYNC:  ADD  A,CCAP0L                ;    Setup PCA1 for output pulse
	   MOV  CCAP1L,A                ;      width.  CCAP1 = CCAP0 + PW1
	   MOV  A,PW1+1                 ;      (16-bit add)
	   ADDC A,CCAP0H

SPW_FIN:   MOV  CCAP1H,A                ; Finish both paths.
	   MOV  CCAPM1,#01001101b       ; Set PCA1 for High Speed Output
					;    and enable interrupt. 
 clr p4.4  ;debug
SPW_DONE:  RET                          ; Return from Subroutine.

SPW_ASYN:  ADD  A,CCAP3L                ; Handle PW for Async Mode.
	   MOV  CCAP1L,A                ;    Setup PCA1 for output pulse
	   MOV  A,PW1+1                 ;      width.  CCAP1 = CCAP3 + PW1
	   ADDC A,CCAP3H                ;      (16-bit add)
	   AJMP SPW_FIN                 ;    Go finish.

IAC_HIGHER:		; IAC motor init for higher idle
		CLR	P5.4		; Set step output low
		CLR	P5.5		; Set direction to higher idle
		SETB	P5.6		; Enable IAC (Turn on)
		RET

IAC_LOWER:		; IAC motor init for lower idle
		CLR	P5.4		; Set step output low
		SETB	P5.5		; Set direction to higher idle
		SETB	P5.6		; Enable IAC (Turn on)
		RET

IAC_STEP:		; Step IAC motor in selected direction
		SETB	P5.4		; Set step output high
		NOP			; Delay for 10us 
		NOP			; for step to be initiated (MC3479 - PWCKx)
		NOP
		NOP
		NOP
		NOP
		NOP
		NOP
		NOP
		NOP
		CLR	P5.4		; Set step output low
		RET

IAC_OFF:		; Turn off power to IAC motor (doesn't move)
		CLR	P5.6		; Disable IAC (Turn off)
		CLR	P5.4		; Set step output to low (it should already be low)
		RET

; WDT routines - see Intel appnotes (AB-44)
; Initialize timer 0 for watchdog ISR - see WDT_ISR:
; Note: Each timer 'tick' is osc/12 secs.
WDT_INIT:
	setb p4.5       ;debug
		SETB EA         ; Enable All interrupts
		SETB ET0        ; Enable Timer0 Int
		SETB PT0	; Set Timer0 int to 1st priority (highest) PT0
		MOV IPH,#00000010b	; Set PT0H	

		MOV TMOD, #01   ; Set Timer0 mode to 16-bit, no prescale
		MOV TL0, #67H   ; Set the timer to interrupt (hit FFFF) in 15000 ticks
		MOV TH0, #0C5H  ; FFFF-3A98 = C567 (65535-15000 = 50535)

		SETB TR0        ; Start the timer

	clr p4.5        ;debug
		RET

	
; This ISR has 3 functions:
;       1) To reset the WDT before 16.3667 ms passes (at 12 MHz)
;       2) To check for rapid TPS movement
;       3) To increment a byte for use as a counter for EGO and related routines

; WDT reset - WDT needs to be reset every 16.3667ms or it will reset the CPU
; Timer 0 is used to call this ISR every 15ms to do this reset.

WDT_ISR:
setb p4.6        ;debug

	PUSH    DPH
	PUSH    DPL
	PUSH    ACC
	PUSH	PSW

	CLR TR0                 ; stop timer 0
	MOV WDTRST, #1EH        ; clear WDT
	MOV WDTRST, #0E1H
	MOV TL0, #67H           ; Set the timer to interrupt (hit FFFF) in 15000 ticks
	MOV TH0, #0C5H          ; FFFF-3A98 = C567 (65535-15000 = 50535)
	SETB TR0                ; restart timer 0

; Pulse bit for external WDT/reset IC.  Inverts every time through.
; This should NOT be kept in the ISR, it needs to be in the main BASIC loop
	CPL P1.6		; Invert Reset IC's WDT bit

; Increment BASIC counter bytes
	   MOV  DPTR, #TICK15           ; Get counter address
	   MOVX A, @DPTR                ; Put the contents of TICK15 in A (LSB)
	   INC  A                       ; Increment it
	   MOVX @DPTR, A                ; Put it back in TICK15
	   JNZ  WDT_EXIT                ; If it hasn't rolled over to 00, then exit
	   INC DPTR                     ; Do the MSB
	   MOVX A, @DPTR

	   MOV  A, #00                  ; 
	   MOVX A, @DPTR                ; Put the contents of TICK15+1 in A (MSB)
	   INC  A                       ; Increment it
	   MOVX @DPTR, A                ; Put it back in TICK15+1

WDT_EXIT:       
		POP	PSW
		POP     ACC
		POP     DPL
		POP     DPH

clr p4.6       ;debug
		RETI

	

	   END

--=====================_98831695==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


--=====================_98831695==_--



From GoAPE at tiac.net  Sun Jan 31 20:39:25 1999
From: GoAPE at tiac.net (Auburn Performance Equipment)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:39:25 -0500
Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #60
Message-ID: <mailman.33198.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Date sent:      	Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:57:28 -0500
From:           	DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
To:             	DIY_EFI-Digest at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject:        	DIY_EFI Digest V4 #60
Send reply to:  	diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu

> 
> From: "ron.boley" <ron.boley at worldnet.att.net>
> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:39:06 -0500
> Subject: Re: SpeedBrain
> 
> Matt:
> 
> I looked at your site and read the contents on the SpeedBrain.  I'd like
> to understand what the dynamic range of the SpeedBrain is versus the Ford
> EEC-IV.  Is it a complete equivalent except for added programmability or
> is it designed to cure other hi performance ills.

The range is very similar, which areas specifically would you like to 
compare?

It is designed to out perform the stock computer and software.
It is designed to be user friendly, as well as eliminate some 
headache areas that are obstacales to higher performance.
 
> Is it more adaptable than EEC-IV? How would it handle a aftermarket cam
> with sufficent overlap to reduce vacuum at idle.

It idles.cruises, and performs better than the stock eec.
 
Thanks,

Matt


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AUBURN PERFORMANCE EQUIPMENT 
Home of the world's fastest 4.6 Cobra!
1998 Winner 160mph class Big Bend Classic roadrace, Ft Stockton, TX
1998 Winner 160mph class Gamblers Run roadrace, Elko, NV
1998 Winner 165mph class Silverstate Classic roadrace, Ely, NV

We just don't sell and install parts, we make them perform.

ORDER LINE   1-508-752-7683  
24 hr FAX LINE (508)752-5269   TECH LINE (508)797-9728
WEBSITE & ON-LINE CATALOG: http://www.tiac.net/users/goape/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From kenkelly at lucent.com  Sun Jan 31 21:19:14 1999
From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:19:14 -0500
Subject: fuel pumps
Message-ID: <mailman.33199.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Marc,
	I think you need a return line from the small tank back to the main gas tank.
This can be small and should pick up high in the small tank to return the vapor.
Jags that run suggests this method in there "chevrolet TPI & TBI Engine
Swapping" book.
		Ken

Marc Piccioni wrote:
> 
> I will also be converting to EFI shortly and wonder if the following will
> work:
> 
> Use a low pressure electric pump mounted by the tank feeding forward to an
> insulated fuel resovoir ( say 1 liter in size) mounted in the engine
> compartment equipped with a float to keep the level constant. Then feed the
> high pressure pump locally from the bottom of the resovoir and route the
> regulator bypass outlet back to the top of the resovoir. The only problem
> that I can see is possibly vapour being trapped at the top of the tank.
> 
> ----------
> From:   Fran and Bud[SMTP:quest100 at gte.net]
> Sent:   January 30, 1999 2:17 AM
> To:     diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject:        Re: fuel pumps
> 
> Best performance will be gained by mounting the pump low and as close to
> the
> gas tank as possible, making the low pressure (inlet) flow circuit short.
> Most pumps don't do well with suction, but are happy pushing all the gas
> they can get.
> ----------
> >From: "Mike Pilkenton" <mpilkent at ptw.com>
> >To: "DIY-EFI" <DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>, "4/6 Cyl. Performance"
> <DomesticPerformance at onelist.com>
> >Subject: fuel pumps
> >Date: Sat, Jan 30, 1999, 4:34 PM
> >
> 
> >Well I'm deep into my engine conversion project and need to install an
> >electric fuel pump for the EFI engine (3.1L V6).  Question is do I have to
> >put the fuel pump back in the tank or can I install the pump up by the
> >engine.  I know I need the high pressure type made for FI engines and not
> >the carb (low pressure).  Mounting anaftermarket in-line pump up by the
> >engine sure would be more convenient.  Any advice would be appreciated.
> >
> >Mike Pilkenton
> >
> 
> begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
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> end


From houlster at user1.inficad.com  Sun Jan 31 21:43:11 1999
From: houlster at user1.inficad.com (Daniel Houlton)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:43:11 -0500
Subject: Rising rate fuel pressure regulator
Message-ID: <mailman.33200.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Mike Pitts wrote:
> 
> Some of you may remember my recent post about my desire to 
> build a rising rate pressure regulator to mount in the stock location.  
> Carl Summers informed me that he already has such a device.  
> 
> I just received one and all I can say is WOW!  What a nice piece 
> of engineering work!  This is something I would expect to see on 
> a Formula-1 racer.  
> 
> If you want to take a peek, I made up a little webpage with photo 
> of Carl's regulator standing next to an OEM Bosch regulator. 
> 
> http://www.emi.net/~mpitts/reg.htm
> 


Couple of questions:  How much or a rising rate do you get?  2:1,
3.2:1 , 5:1?  Is this amount adjustable?  How much was it?  I'm
looking for one too and was planning on the Kenne Bell version.
Kinda procrastinating because it's about $200.  

--Dan


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 31 21:56:34 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:56:34 -0500
Subject: EFI Questions
Message-ID: <mailman.33201.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>


-----Original Message-----
From: dzorde <dzorde at geocities.com>
To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu <diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 8:55 AM
Subject: RE:EFI Questions

Could it be due to the compression,   yes.
I still would first try to measure the performance, and see what changing
the
timing mixture does.
Gray, is soot, soot is lack of O2.  I don't know of anything contrary to
that.
Bruce



>Its times like this I wish I had a digital camera.  Anyway, cooling temp is
>84C (180F thermostat from memory).  I don't think I'm on too much advance
>(8deg @1000rpm), although I have never checked what the total advance is at
>max rpm.  But I do know anymore and it pings.  The greyness is close to the
>light grey used in the Windows menu bars with a brown tint appearing.  I've
>tried retarding the timing, which does result in the cars seeming slower to
>work its ways through the revs.
>
>But this keeps me getting back to the compression. The fact that the car
>won't run properly if I reduce the fuel delivery (even though still reading
>rich), could that be due to the extremely high compression ?
>
>Dan     dzorde at soanar.com.au
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net]
>Sent: Saturday, January 30, 1999 3:33 AM
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
>Subject: Re: RE:EFI Questions
>
>
>>Tried the plug cuts.  Looks nice and clean (no detonation) but I already
>>know that its OK on avgas.  Plugs are a medium grey, with probably a
slight
>>browning of the ceramic tip (NGK BP6S plugs).  And yet the car is still
>>running very rich (I think around 0.8-0.9V is rich).  So how does a plug
>>look like its OK and yet all other indications are that its rich (got me
>>puzzled) ?
>
>Depending on the grayness, you might be running too much timing
>too rich.  The gray is a sign of a sooty flame, meaning excess fuel,
>running extra timing makes the motor seem like it's pulling better.
>What for cooling temp ya running?.
>Remember, I'm an ocean away and can't see you plugs, and just
>trying to work off of what your reporting.
>Bruce
>



From rah at horizon.hit.net  Sun Jan 31 22:07:48 1999
From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:07:48 -0500
Subject: Adjusting parameters that determine BLM cell - GM ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.33202.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

My car is quite modified (different cam, higher idle).

I am looking at readjusting the parameters that determine what BLM cell is used where.  I
have determined the code that controls it and understand it.

Right now:

First:
BLM = 0 		RPM 	< 700
BLM = 1		 700 <	RPM 	< 1200
BLM = 2		1200 <  RPM 	< 2000
BLM = 3		2000 <  RPM

Then:
BLM = BLM		$0154	< 0x20
BLM += 4	0x20 <	$0154	< 0x32
BLM += 8	0x32 < 	$0154	< 0x50
BLM += 12	0x50 <  $0154

I don't at this time know what $0154, I am figuring it is map related, and I going to
determine what it is later today.

Have others changed the parameters to move BLM Cells around?

Right now, I have rather bad BLM cell coverage.  With 4 or so hours
of data I dont get into BLM cells 0,1 4,5 8,9 12,13 at all.   Those
cells are the ones indexed by rpm (0-700,700-1200), my idle is raised 
to more like 900 (out of gear), 950 (in gear).

Also right now my BLM are way out of tune (ie BLM values close to the bottom rail (110 or
so average), so everything is going to have to be tuned.
		Any help is appreciated from others with
		knowledge about this subject.
		Roger


From cosmic.ray at juno.com  Sun Jan 31 22:13:36 1999
From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:13:36 -0500
Subject: More UEGO stuff
Message-ID: <mailman.33203.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Oops... 

Nope, not making light of Steve's work.  Having had my hands into a few
designs, I know that designing a simple circuit can be more difficult
than designing a complicated one.  The basic circuit for a UEGO sensor is
simple, but actually assigning values to the components can take a lot
more time.  Also, it takes some real thought to keep the parts count from
bloating as you make adjustments here and add features there.

I am especially curious about that calibration resister.  I could
probablly figure out how to hook it up so that the circuit will be
self-calibrating, but it would requre either some information that I
don't have, or a test with some good test equipment and several sensors
from different batches.

For my application, it doesn't matter much.  All I want is an output that
I can divide down to 0-1 V and feed into my Holley Pro-Jection ECM.  I'll
just start leaning it out at cruise until it's too lean, then enrich it
until I get it right.

I'll do something similar at WOT.  It's really cool that Holley allows
you to adjust the "set point" table.  That feature is useless with a HEGO
sensor, but will be very useful once I get my hands on a UEGO sensor.  I
wonder why Holley put that feature into their ECM.

Ray



On Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:07:07 -0500 "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
writes:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Raymond C Drouillard <cosmic.ray at juno.com>
>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu 
><diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu>
>Date: Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:39 PM
>Subject: Re: More UEGO stuff
>
>Gee, sounds so easy.  Hmm, care to whip up a ION?.
>I certainly hope you weren't making light of Steve's work.
>Bruce
>
>
>>I would buy one.  Of course, if I happen to "stumble" across a design
>>before the kit is available, I would simply build it myself.  The
>>circuitry on a UEGO isn't all that complicated.  In its most basic
form,
>>it is a single op-amp and a few discretes.  Add a few more components
for
>>a double-ended power supply, something to shut off the ion pump when
it's
>>not warm, something to regulate the heater, and you have it.
>>
>>Ray Drouillard
>>
>>
>>On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:25:13 -0600 Steve Gorkowski <kb4mxo at mwt.net>
>>writes:
>>>If one would come as a kit for under $200.00 with sensor. How many 
>>>would
>>>buy the kit ? No sense to design if one if no one was interested in 
>a
>>>wide O2 meter.
>>>
>>>Steve
>>>
>>>Mike Pitts wrote:
>>>
>>>> Any interest?  Is this a waste of bandwidth?
>>>>
>>>> "This invention provides an self-calibrating buffer amplifier
>>>> for a Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor interface circuit
>>>> which couples and processes a voltage signal proportional
>>>> to pumping cell current to a level and reference voltage suitable
>>>> for input to an A-to-D convertor. The goal of this invention is to
>>>> increase the accuracy of air-to-fuel ratio control by continually
>>>> correcting for the effects of offset quantities in the amplifier
>>>> stage necessary to the interface circuitry. This goal is 
>>>accomplished
>>>> by an approach which effectively generates and subtracts these
>>>> offset quantities from the processed signal. "
>>>>
>>>> http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?pn=US05211154__
>>>>
>>>> -Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at 
>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan 31 22:16:30 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:16:30 -0500
Subject: Love This
Message-ID: <mailman.33204.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>> >I know Toyota uses the system in the 1ZZ-FE and claims lower evap
>> >emissions as the reason, FWIW. Less vapor lock?

Keeping the fuel in the tank cooler keeps its vapor pressure down, and
helps reduce evap emissions. Yes, keeping the tank cooler also provides
more net positive suction head (NPSH) to an in line fuel pump, but it does
nothing to help with keeping fuel vapor out of the fuel rails during
hard/hot running or after a hot soak.

With no bypass fuel flow, this second problem WILL be worse.

Greg
>>
>> DO NOT let mfgr BS about less evap emissions get confused with getting the
>> vapor bubbles out of the fuel rails!!!
>>
>The evap. test has been increased from 1 hr to 3 days so is more
>difficult to past.  Does any one know where i can get a low
>permeation fuel neck hose?
>alex




From bearbvd at sni.net  Sun Jan 31 22:16:30 1999
From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:16:30 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33205.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>> About 6 - 8 years ago (?) in Road & Track there was a Tech Tidbit
>> (or some such) article about accelerometers / stopwatch / coastdown
>> to determine rolling and wind resistance and horsepower. Does
>> anybody have the reference?
>>
>> TIA,
>> Jay
>>
>Power  is change in kinetic energy over a time
>1/2*m*(v^2f-vi^2) /t   where vf is final velocity
>vi=initial velocity  m = mass of car and  t=time
>potential energy= 0
>alex
>alex
>
There is a thorough description of how to do it in the McInnes Turbo book.

Regards, Greg




From goflo at pacbell.net  Sun Jan 31 22:23:50 1999
From: goflo at pacbell.net (goflo at pacbell.net)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:23:50 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33206.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

There is a very clear explanation of one way to do this in
"Turbochargers", by Hugh MacInnes. HP books.

Jack

> > About 6 - 8 years ago (?) in Road & Track there was a Tech Tidbit
> > (or some such) article about accelerometers / stopwatch / coastdown
> > to determine rolling and wind resistance and horsepower. Does
> > anybody have the reference?
> > TIA,
> > Jay

> Power  is change in kinetic energy over a time
> 1/2*m*(v^2f-vi^2) /t   where vf is final velocity
> vi=initial velocity  m = mass of car and  t=time
> potential energy= 0
> alex



From n5xmt at bellsouth.net  Sun Jan 31 22:26:27 1999
From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:26:27 -0500
Subject: replace an EPROM with an EEPROM?
Message-ID: <mailman.33207.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

There may be problems...  there are CE and PGM on the 28256, Guess if you
pulled it to reprogram, it would be a little easier than erasing a UV eprom.  

At 10:43 AM 1/31/99 +1100, you wrote:
>
>
>>Pinouts are different... 27C256 is a 28 pin, 28256 is a 32 pin...
>
>
>But electrically would it work?, an adaptor would be no prob really.
>I assume the extra pins are for re-programming?.
>I agree with Ted, this method would save so much time.
>
>>At 05:06 PM 1/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Has anyone tried to replace an Eprom with and EEprom?
>>>Specifically, Replace the 27c256 in a Memcal with a 28256?
>>>Does anyone know if it would work?  or is the pinout somehow different?
>>>The reason I'm interested in doing this is because it would be more
>economical
>>>and efficient.
>>>
>>>Also, what do people do about removing and replacing their Eproms from the
>>>Memcals when reprogramming them?  Do you solder in ZIF sockets?
>>>
>>>I want to start lookin at and modifying my Memcal, but have never done any
>of
>>>this stuff before.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Ted
>>
>>===========================================================
>>           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
>>     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
>>       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be
>approximated.
>>===========================================================
>>
>

===========================================================
           David Cooley N5XMT           Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net
     Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA   T.A.P.R. Member #7068
       I am Pentium of Borg...division is futile...you will be approximated.
===========================================================


From clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net  Sun Jan 31 22:57:12 1999
From: clare.snyder.on.ca at ibm.net (Clarence L.Snyder)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:57:12 -0500
Subject: Lambda Valve
Message-ID: <mailman.33208.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Robert Harris wrote:
> 
> Before anyone else runs off into fantasy land, it might help to know what a
> "Lambda Valve" is.   What it most definitely is not is a Fuel Pressure
> Regulator in any classical sense.
SNIPP
>   It looks similar to a Fuel Injector but its not.  It opens and >closes in a similar manner, but its opening and closing do not meter >fuel. 
Whoa!! Hold on there!
How does it  control the pressure on the lower chanber? The fuel is fed
to that chamber through a calibrated orifice, which allows only so much
fuel through - but much more than is required. This extra fuel is
"injected" back into the return line, limiting the control pressure
(lower side of the chanber) which controls injection volume / pressure.
So in operation, it IS a pressure regulator. The same type of setup CAN
be used as an EFI pressure regulator. Regulate the flow into the FI log
with  a restrictor (OK, just use the fuel line if you want) that allows
more fuel into the log than the injectors will ever need to pass. This
builds pressure. Limit the pressure by "injecting: it back into the
return line. Control the "injection" with a PWM and pressure sensor. If
you want to get fancy you "restrict" the FI feed by slowing the pump
with another PWM, based on power requirement (read MAP sensor). The fuel
pump always needs to deliver some excess volume (to build pressure)
which is the regulated by the "injector" in the return line. The MAP
sensor can compensate for boost as well - by raising fuel pump output
and providing an "add" to the fuel pressure control, lowering the pulse
width or frequency of the "regulator injector". By matching the fuel
pump speed and injector capacity, a fairly small injector, running at
the middle of it's range, should be able to provide exceptionally fine
fuel pressure control.Mabee even a "lambda valve".
> Rather the amount of
> time the valve remains open - bleeding control fuel back to the tank -
> controls the pressure in the lower chambers of the differential pressure
> valves.  This in turn, changes upper chamber pressure to change the pressure
> drop and change enrichment.
> 
> Simple terms - its a solenoid valve - pure plain and simple. 

And what is an injector?


> Its on time is
> determined by the pulse width.  Open Closed.   That's it that's all there is.
> 
> But - it can be used for anything you want.  A Frequency/Pulse width modulated
> valve that can handle up to about 100 PSI.   Think about it - you might come
> up with a dark side idea.
> 
> 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home"
> 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine"
> 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant
> 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile"
> 
> Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore


From nacelp at bright.net  Sun Jan 31 23:20:08 1999
From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:20:08 -0500
Subject: Adam vs Vapor
Message-ID: <mailman.33209.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

On another list it was mentioned some of the blokes in Oz may have
compared some IR Carb'd stuff to Plenum, EFI, using maybe even the
same size runners.  Was curious if anyone around here was involved,
or know directly what the results were....
Cheers
Bruce        



From mgr at mgrcorp.com  Sun Jan 31 23:47:33 1999
From: mgr at mgrcorp.com (Gwyn Reedy)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:47:33 -0500
Subject: Switch Pitch
Message-ID: <mailman.33210.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Jim,

You obviously know a lot more about this than I do. Would you care to
elaborate on the Simpson planetary gearset patent and the Ravigneaux design?
Or where can one learn more?

Gwyn Reedy
Brandon, Florida
mailto:mgr at mgrcorp.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Jim Davies
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 9:37 PM
> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: RE: Switch Pitch
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Gwyn Reedy wrote:
>
> > There were comments about the similarity between the DynaFlow and
> > Powerglide. I'm wondering if there weren't more similarities
> between DF and
> > TurboGlide? The latter was a no-shift transmission.
> >
> Yes, the turboglide, dynaflow and the first 2 years of the powerglide were
> similar, non-shifting, multi-element torque converter efforts from GM, who
> did not wish to pay royalties for the Simpson planetary patent and also
> didnt want to use Borg-Warners Ravigneaux-based transmissions.
>
> > Thinking back about all these earlier transmissions: Was
> Detroit slow to see
> > the need for better performance or was the market all attuned
> to smoothness
> > (or so thought Detroit)?
> >
> These 50s era horrible automatics were all GM. Ford was an early user of
> the Ravigneaux, although the early ones were 2 speeds. GM really dropped
> the ball [IMO] after the industry-first single coupling hydro went out of
> production in 1956. It wasnt until the BW 400 came out in 1964 that they
> had another first class automatic. Mopar, of course, introduced a Simpson
> type 3 speed in 1955. Even Nash used 3 speed automatics in the 1950s.
>
>



From trinity at golden.net  Sun Jan 31 23:58:41 1999
From: trinity at golden.net (Mike)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:58:41 -0500
Subject: Adjusting parameters that determine BLM cell - GM ECM
Message-ID: <mailman.33211.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

>My car is quite modified (different cam, higher idle).
>
>I am looking at readjusting the parameters that determine what BLM cell is
used where.  I
>have determined the code that controls it and understand it.
>
>Right now:
>
>First:
>BLM = 0 		RPM 	< 700
>BLM = 1		 700 <	RPM 	< 1200
>BLM = 2		1200 <  RPM 	< 2000
>BLM = 3		2000 <  RPM
>
>Then:
>BLM = BLM		$0154	< 0x20
>BLM += 4	0x20 <	$0154	< 0x32
>BLM += 8	0x32 < 	$0154	< 0x50
>BLM += 12	0x50 <  $0154
>
>I don't at this time know what $0154, I am figuring it is map related, and
I going to
>determine what it is later today.
>

I had a quick look at 0154 and it appears to be a convoluted representation
of filtered MAP in actual kPa:

    MAP kPa = (0154*256 + 0155) / 256

or more simply (and somewhat less accurately) by eliminating the fractional
part:
    
    MAP kPa = 0154

So, say, 0154 = 0x55 means 85kPa MAP pressure.

It's hard to see what they're doing with 015B which seems to be used as the
next value to be added to the filtered 014E value. But 014E is initialized
to the raw MAP counts so it's safe to assume, I think, that 015B is a MAP
derived value.

>Have others changed the parameters to move BLM Cells around?
>
>Right now, I have rather bad BLM cell coverage.  With 4 or so hours
>of data I dont get into BLM cells 0,1 4,5 8,9 12,13 at all.   Those
>cells are the ones indexed by rpm (0-700,700-1200), my idle is raised 
>to more like 900 (out of gear), 950 (in gear).
>
>Also right now my BLM are way out of tune (ie BLM values close to the
bottom rail (110 or
>so average), so everything is going to have to be tuned.
>		Any help is appreciated from others with
>		knowledge about this subject.


If your BLM is at 110 or so, your running way fat. Any chance of turning
down the fuel pressure a pound or two or three? Or is it okay up top and
rich down low?


--
 Mike



From S.Baly at bom.gov.au  Sun Jan 31 23:59:27 1999
From: S.Baly at bom.gov.au (Stuart Baly)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:59:27 -0500
Subject: <all> home dyno kit??
Message-ID: <mailman.33212.1369893299.12328.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

The procedure is described in the Bosch Automotive Handbook. My copy has headed for parts unknown, so I can't help you more than that.

Stuart Baly.


> About 6 - 8 years ago (?) in Road & Track there was a Tech Tidbit
> (or some such) article about accelerometers / stopwatch / coastdown
> to determine rolling and wind resistance and horsepower. Does
> anybody have the reference?
> 
> TIA,
> Jay

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