From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sat May 1 00:19:38 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:19:38 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > >1937 Damiler Benz 601 A 1100hp, 1344lb > >1940 Rolls Royce Merlin Series II 1030hp, 1335lb > > > >(From Fighter, by Len Deighton) > > > Hi Tom-- > > Did the book list the "Griffon"--which I believe was the name for the > stroked Merlin ?? > The Griffon was not a stroked Merlin. It was an entirely different engine. Same displacement as the R and Buzzard from the early 1930s From jballeng at vt.edu Sat May 1 00:20:18 1999 From: jballeng at vt.edu (James Ballenger) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:20:18 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Howard Wilkinson wrote: > James: > I must take issue with this statement.... my experience with > engines suggests that this is far from the truth: > > >If the engine is not throttled and remains where it will make peak > power it > >will have significantly less wear on the engine. > > My experience with numerous gas engines over the years would suggest > that there is a far stronger correlation between % Max BMEP operation > and engine wear. At WOT (Max BMEP) combustion temps are greater, the > lubrication is less effective, and bottom end stresses and bearing > wear are higher. Greatest engine life, and minimum wear appear to be > at lower throttle settings, and constant load. This may not be > correct according to the experts, but this is what I've observed to be > true. H.W. I am not familiar with the max bmep term, could you explain? One this to consider is the changes that could be made if this were the case though. At max ve, we could optimize the ignition timing/cam duration/timing to make max power at this specific point. By doing so we could significantly reduce advance and therefore negative torque on the engine btdc. We would also have less wear because the engine rpm would be constant and would not experience varying loads on the bearings and such. Though temps would be greater as you mentioned. Load would not be an issue because the transmission would compensate, always giving the engine some load. The magnitude of the load would be in the engineers hands. At this point it seems as though we would be dealing more with transmission reliability than engine reliability. James Ballenger From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sat May 1 00:25:15 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:25:15 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Well once again Doc is muttering,, something about SU's and inverted flight. > He's never really liked them much right side up........ > Sneezy > Maybe he would prefer the British technical term for them..."constant depression" carburettors. I know I was constantly depressed when working on them... From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 1 01:27:31 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:27:31 -0400 Subject: Need Fuel Injector Data Message-ID: There was a website which mentioned using Saturn parts for aircraft EFI conversions. Can't quite remember the name, but I will post it when I do. If you can't wait, the person who owned the site was a member of this list at one time. His posts should be in the archives. Shannen Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Couple things come to mind. > GM 1987 Sunbird 2.0L 4 cylinder Turbo might be close, they are P+H. > www.lindertech.com that's off the top of my head but they are in gasoline > Alley > Indianapolis, IN. Then RC Eng in SoCal.. > How much info do you have about that ecms prom calibrations?. > If your point man is gone, you might need to reevaluate your posistion. > Bruce > > > A friend of mine and I are working on an unusual project. We are adapting > a > > '93 Saturn ECM and two DIS modules to run a Continental O-200 aircraft > > engine. The engine is 200 C.I. (3.3 L) 4 cylinder dual plug and should > make > > about 120 HP at about 2800 RPM. > > > > Can anyone supply us with the information or give us an idea of where we > can > > find a chart with the injector data? From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 1 01:42:47 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:42:47 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > PS > I really hit to comment that my dad used to use an engine called > a "Waterloo Boy", which was a hit-and-miss engine. It had a governer > that would cut fuel flow and spark above a certain RPM so that the engine > would only fire when it got slow enough to need it. It's an interesting > design, and fun to watch (and listen to) > > PUT na na na PUT na na PUT PUT PUT na na na na... > > The more you load it, the more it fires. Sounds like a John Deere 2cyl tractor. Massive flywheel and long stroke crank made for similar sounds at idle. Shannen From quest100 at gte.net Sat May 1 02:07:39 1999 From: quest100 at gte.net (Fran and Bud) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:07:39 -0400 Subject: Ignition Sensors Message-ID: Hi Tom, I want to build a DIS system for an old Flathead Ford, (1948). Probably try to copy a modern Chevy V8. Any engineering samples that would help?? Bud ---------- >From: TManson at micro.honeywell.com (Manson, Tom) >To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu (diy_efi) >Subject: Ignition Sensors >Date: Fri, Apr 30, 1999, 7:36 AM > > >Howdy folks, I am brand new to the list as of yesterday. I work for Micro >Switch/Honeywell where we make all sorts of ignition sensors, I build test >equipment to test these sensors. We have dozens of styles of sensors, both >gear-tooth and vane, that we supply to Bosch, Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc. >Functionally they are all pretty much the same, the packaging(mounting) and >connectors used are what makes them all unique. If any of you working on >your own control system would like some 'engineering' samples, let me know. > >Tom Manson >Micro Switch/Honeywell > From goflo at pacbell.net Sat May 1 02:09:22 1999 From: goflo at pacbell.net (goflo at pacbell.net) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:09:22 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Shannen Durphey wrote: > > The more you load it, the more it fires. > Sounds like a John Deere 2cyl tractor. Massive flywheel and long > stroke crank made for similar sounds at idle. > Shannen Resurrected a turn-of-the-century Hercules irrigation motor some years ago - Same deal. Kicked in circa 200 rpm, out around 375. Huge flywheel. Carb was a can of gas with a hole in it. Intake valve was sucked open, blown shut. Ex valve operated by cam. Ran great. Tried like hell, but could'nt interest customer in boost, nitrous, FI... Jack From cosmic.ray at juno.com Sat May 1 02:21:10 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:21:10 -0400 Subject: High economy, was Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: >Electric or hydraulic drive allows the engine to operate more efficiently >but the drive train loses efficiency compared to a direct mechanical drive. >Mechanical to electric to mechanical is at best 75%. Hydraulic has high >losses at high speeds. The one advantage for electric with a small battery >and small engine is regenerative braking and the ability to turn off the >engine for short periods of driving. > >Gary Derian > Electric motors can have efficiencies up into the high 90s. Even with a motor and a generater (each in the high 90s, with a combined efficiency in the lown 90s), you can do better than a typical automatic transmission. If you're thinking 4WD (as I do), you can easily better the transmission/transfer case combination. As an added bonus, you can have a motor at each wheel, and therefore have independant control of each wheel. One wheel losing traction will not cause the others to lose torque. You'll have the best of both worlds - the traction of a fully locked system with the advantages of a fully differentiated system. Hydraulics is a weak point for me. Just how efficient can you make a hydraulic pump or motor. One trick I would use to raise efficiency is to slow the motor down by using large (44 inch) tires (100 mph at 764 RPM). I did a bunch of calculations when I was in high school to figure out the specifics (displacement of motors, size of accumulater, etc). I would have to do them again, though. I have forgotten the results after all these years. Ray Drouillard ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From cosmic.ray at juno.com Sat May 1 02:21:10 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:21:10 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:59:02 -0600 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes: >>I like that idea. A variable displacement hydraulic pump at the engine >>and four variable displacement pumps (one at each wheel), along with an >>accumulater would allow you to size the engine for the maximum sustained >>load (say 100 MPH up a 7% slope fully loaded). Size the accumulater so >>that it can store enough energy to accelerate the vehicle's mass from 0 >>to 100 MPH. >> > >This is called a "hydrostatic drive" . A common implementation of it is on >the large snow cats which ski areas use as groomers for their slopes. I >think the big problem with it is that the drive's efficiency is low enough >that any gains in engine efficiency are negated. I certainly can't claim to have invented the idea :) Actually, my dad has a hydrostatic drive on his Bolens lawn tractor. I actually got the idea from an old article in the Mother Earth News (mid 70s). Some college students took a bradley GT (homebuilt) body and outfitted it with a Brigs & Stratton engine and a system similar to what I just described. They were going for mileage more than drivability and power ('70s, remember?). Well, the thing actually got about 70 MPG and did 0-60 in eight seconds. Not too shabby for an econobox. It had a top speed of 70 because of the small engine. I understand that your standard off-road (or lawn tractor) hydrostat drive has an efficiency of around 50%. I suspect that there are hydraulic pumps and motors available that are more efficient, but I could be wrong... Ray Drouillard ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From cosmic.ray at juno.com Sat May 1 02:21:13 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:21:13 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:42:39 +0200 "Espen Hilde" writes: >Hi! >I agree with using a variable transmition to keep the rpm at max torque but >we have to have a variable size engine to, to get max torque we have to >have wot.if we drive at wot the output will be to high for our use. If you change the ratio of the transmission enough to get the RPMs down in the 1000 and under range, you can lower the power output drastically. The main caveat is to design the cam profile so that the engine will run efficiently at that speed. You don't need variable displacement or variable compression ratio to do this. Variable valve timing will do the trick - and the technology is already fairly commonplace. >Variable stroke is a help but it will be a ineffichent combustion camber with >the short stroke and the compression ratio will not be good still runningwot. >VW made a variable compression ratio combustion camber, dont ask me how >they did it.....variable combustion camber and variable stroke would >do the trick .....easy uh....Ore several independant engines coupled >together >Espen > >---------- >> From: James Ballenger >> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs >> Date: 30. april 1999 04:47 >> >> >> >> Howard Wilkinson wrote: >> >> > The most reasonable way to control engine power output is by >> > gearing so that RPM is controlled by load. A continuously >variable >> > transmission system could allow an engine to operate at full >throttle >> > all the time except at idle when it would need to be throttled. >> > Allowing the engine to always operate at WOT would greatly >increase >> > efficiency. H.W. >> >> Ok, I know this isnt right. If we had continously variable >transmissions, >> we would be running them at peak torque not at wot. VE is greatest >at >peak >> torque, the reason we rev engines higher to acheive high horsepower >is to >combat >> inefficient gearing. At wot, there is significantly reduced ve and >not >enough >> time to get good mixture and combustion, therefore lower torque. >The >reason >> this is an asset is because it produces more torque per unit time, >ie >power. >> With a continuously variable transmission we could run the engine >all day >long >> at peak torque and get double or triple the gas mileage, more power, >and >reduced >> wear. Again, im just a student so tell me where i goofed but I have >discussed >> this with others before and feel somehat confident that this is >right. >> >> James Ballenger ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From cosmic.ray at juno.com Sat May 1 02:21:16 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:21:16 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:20:44 -0400 James Ballenger writes: > > >Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > >> Don't make the mistake of getting volumetric efficiency mixed up with >> engine efficiency. Engine efficiency is work in / work out. VE is air >> in / (.5 * displacement) (for a four-cycle engine). Torque is highest >> at the highest VE because you can get more fuel in for each revolution of >> the crank. Power is highest at the point where you can get the most fuel >> per unit time. > >At peak ve, you get the closest thing to perfect combustion. You get a good >full charge of, hopefully, stochiomteric mix and can burn it making maximum >force and maximum fuel economy. I don't argue with the above. What I am saying is that if you run it at max VE without throttling it, you will generate MUCH more power than you need. If you throttle it, you will not have a good VE. Throttling works by lowering VE. At max power, we are making less torque but >making it faster. The problem here is that there are inherent combustion and >frictional ineffeciencies. At max power (hp) we have to advance ignition and >now valve timing to try to catch up. You get an incomplete burn of the fuel >and have a very inefficient cycle, its just that you can do this enough per >unit time to get more power. The only reason we do this is because of >imperfect gearing. If we have a cvt, as discussed, the point becomes moot >because we can have insanely high (numerically) gearing and torque >multiplication. In this case we would not have a need for more power because >the transmission could be controlled as the throttle, while the engine >remains at its most efficient state. > >> If you are running at the highest torque point (max VE), you have to >> throttle it down to reduce power. This throttling, of course, reduces VE >> to the point where you get the desired power level. Of course, this >> increases pumping losses. > >There is not throttling with a cvt, the transmission is the >"throttle." Agreed. There is no throttling with a properly used CVT. You reduce power by LOWERING THE RPM of the entine to the point where it is producing the desired power. The engine is constantly at WOT, and the power output is controlled by controling the engine speed. > > >> A more efficient way to reduce the power level is to reduce the engine >> speed to below max torque. You will have about the same amount of air >> per unit time, but more air per revolution. Actually, you will have a >> little less air per unit time because it'll be running more efficiently. >> It won't have to do as much pumping. > >You won't be receiving more air, below max torque you will be getting less >air per revolution because it is not at peak ve. At peak torque, you get >peak ve. At peak ve, you get the fullest charge of air and fuel possible >from the engine and will be running more efficiently than at any other point >in the engines range. I am comparing a throttled engine at the speed of max VE with an unthrottled engine that has been slowed down enough to reduce the power to the desired level. Based on that, my statement is correct. IF YOU RUN AN ENGINE AT MAXIMUM VE WITHOUT THROTTLING IT, YOU WILL GET MORE POWER THAN YOU NEED, AND NOTHING YOU CAN DO WITH THE TRANSMISSION (besides wasting the power through friction) WILL REDUCE THE POWER LEVEL. > > >> Other benefits are less wear and tear, lower windage losses in the >> crankcase, lower losses at the oil pump, etc. > >If the engine is not throttled and remains where it will make peak power it >will have significantly less wear on the engine. If you are cruising at a speed that requires 25 HP to maintain, and your engine is capable of putting out 200 HP, you have to either throttle it or run it at a speed where it only generates 25 HP. You CAN NOT run it at its peak VE point or its peak power point and only generate 25 HP unless you throttle it. > >James Ballenger > > There, I said the same thing in several different ways. Hopefully, the concepts won't be misunderstood. Please read it carefully before writing a rebuttal. Ray Drouillard, BSEE ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From fluffy at snurgle.org Sat May 1 02:22:51 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:22:51 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, H Villemure wrote: > I am more of an ignoramus than most on this list- just a fresh > mechanical engineering graduate. Could you detail what a *flathead* > motor design consists of? Yeah.. the heads are flat. ;) Nothing in them but the plugs. During the early part of the century up through the 50's, Ford made flathead V8s which were extremely good engines and used in a wide variety of their cars and a number of early street rods. Not only Ford used flathead engines though; I've got one in a '55 Jeep, which is an inline 6-cylinder. There are some nice advantages to the flathead, not the least of which is simplicity. There are no timing belts, chains, or any of that muck; it's all gear driven. It is somewhat hard to get at the cams, though. Valves are in the block right by the manifolds, so even a valve job is easy. It is a very simple design. However, the performance is lacking compared to OHV or OHC type engines. From steve.ravet at arm.com Sat May 1 02:29:51 1999 From: steve.ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:29:51 -0400 Subject: Need Fuel Injector Data Message-ID: "swagaero". Why do I remember stuff like that? --steve Shannen Durphey wrote: > > There was a website which mentioned using Saturn parts for aircraft > EFI conversions. Can't quite remember the name, but I will post it > when I do. If you can't wait, the person who owned the site was a > member of this list at one time. His posts should be in the archives. > Shannen > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > Couple things come to mind. > > GM 1987 Sunbird 2.0L 4 cylinder Turbo might be close, they are P+H. > > www.lindertech.com that's off the top of my head but they are in gasoline > > Alley > > Indianapolis, IN. Then RC Eng in SoCal.. > > How much info do you have about that ecms prom calibrations?. > > If your point man is gone, you might need to reevaluate your posistion. > > Bruce > > > > > A friend of mine and I are working on an unusual project. We are adapting > > a > > > '93 Saturn ECM and two DIS modules to run a Continental O-200 aircraft > > > engine. The engine is 200 C.I. (3.3 L) 4 cylinder dual plug and should > > make > > > about 120 HP at about 2800 RPM. > > > > > > Can anyone supply us with the information or give us an idea of where we > > can > > > find a chart with the injector data? -- Steve Ravet sravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, INC www.arm.com From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Sat May 1 04:31:13 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:31:13 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: Nah - some insane whacko is building a unique engine from various scrap parts and ancient hot rod ideas. When it get's finished, it will be vaguely fordish and definitely unusual and maybe not too expensive. Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:24:55 -0400 From: H Villemure Subject: Re: Flame - Not Robert, deleted stuff And about your Mach 1- what transplant? The Cobra 427? Talk about torque monster... 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sat May 1 04:57:41 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 00:57:41 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: At 12:07 PM 5/2/99 -0700, you wrote: >I'd like to propose a simple atomization enhancement strategy. It is >well known that higher pressure results in better atomization in a >fuel injection system.... Caterpillar has carried this to extremes and >has some diesel engines running ungodly high pressures....I don't know >the exact figures. > I propose changing out the injectors on my vehicle with injectors >rated for lower flow, and raising the pressure to compensate. >Pressure would be adjusted in "open loop" mode using an exhaust >analyzer. It has been said that most injectors are rated at pressures >far above what they are operated at. > I'm sure this is far from an original idea, and that some of you >have done it..... How much difference does it make, and what about >pump load at the higher pressures..... how much increase in pressure >is required. > I'd like to hear about peoples experiences and mishaps doing this Most injectors will go to 80 maybe 100 PSI differential tops across them before they will either stick fully open or stick fully closed. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sat May 1 05:38:45 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 01:38:45 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: On Sat, 1 May 1999, Robert Harris wrote: > Nah - some insane whacko is building a unique engine from various scrap parts > and ancient hot rod ideas. When it get's finished, it will be vaguely fordish > and definitely unusual and maybe not too expensive. > Floating rod bearings too? From owly at mcn.net Sat May 1 06:12:13 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 02:12:13 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Pat: You wrote: >I'm with you up to here. why a stepped automatic? < The reason for the stepped transmission is to increase gear range beyond what the belt drive can provide.... you'd probably have to use an axle ratio of 1x (not available as far as I know) to get high enough gearing to load an engine down under virtually any conditions You also wrote: >aren't bobcats hydrostatic< The early ones many of which are still in existance were not hydrostatic and used a clutch and brake system like a Caterpillar with a hydraulicly operated variable belt setup for speed range control. The numbers such as 500, 510, 600, 610, and a number of others used this system. I converted one of these from a 2 cylinder Kohler engine (16 hp) to a Subaru EA71 a number of years ago...... what a powerhouse! You also commented about noise in the FE engine with .035 lash..... it wasn't any louder than most solid lifter engines, and was in a 2 ton cab over truck so lifter noise wasn't noticed...... supprisingly some of the Ford factory specs for lifter adjustment on some of the stock FE engines with solid lifters which were high performance engines in the early & mid 60's were at or very close to this gap. You will find this on some of the 390, 406, and 427 engines I believe..... Three duces, solid lifter cam, and 400+ hp. Those were real engines!! H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Pat Ford To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, April 30, 1999 5:13 PM Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs >Previously, you (Howard Wilkinson) wrote: >> Pat: >> It has been said that the greatest efficiency is achieved in terms >> of fuel burned per hour as related to horsepower output at WOT. >> Engine power output is more or less proportional to CFM airflow in a >> spark ignition engine. Thus power must be controlled by regulating >> airflow as mixture is fairly critical. Airflow may be controlled in >> one of several ways. The common way is to apply a vacuum and resist >> induction....throttling..... this has the side effect of reducing >> effective compression ratios at the typical 20% or so throttle at >> which we cruise most cars. Variable displacement would be another, >> but so far has not been introduced. Another is turbocharging a small >> engine on the theory that it will develop greater efficiency at lower >> power settings, and the boost will help it develop enough power when >> needed. This has several downsides.... Compression must be lowered, >> or high octane fuel must be used or timing must be retarded, or all >> three to prevent detonation... Lower compression drops efficiency when >> the turbo isn't boosting... retarding the timing doesn't help output >> or efficiency, and high octane fuel is expensive. Turbocharging or >> Supercharging are not the answer to our prayers unless an engine is >> developed which has variable chamber size. Even then there is the >> downside that the smaller pistons and or shorter stroke will reduce >> the ability to convert the cylinder pressure into torque. We all know >> Pi*Rsquared....... figure the piston surface area and multiply it by >> the combustion pressure to get the push on the rod..... The longer the >> stroke, the greater the leverage available to turn the push into >> torque....... I like cubes....they make power. >> The other way to reduce engine output is to load it down to an RPM >> where the induction air flow is just enough to develop the power >> needed to sustain the load. The belt drive transmission you describe >> is probably the simplest sytem available to do this, and in >> conjunction with a stepped transmission (automatic) one should be able >> to accomplish this. > >I'm with you up to here. why a stepped automatic? the justy used a clutch, >an electronically controlled set of pulleys and the reverse idler, and dif. > >there was no other transmissions. the tach when you jumped on the fun pedal >went to around 3500 rpm ( it was around 10 yrs ago, I don't remember the >exact #) and then the pulleys did all the work. when you eased up on the >pedal the ratios changed gradualy from torque peak down to whatever was >needed to keep the engine load signal ( I believe it was duty cycle from >the injector) in a given range. It worked, and felt like driving a diesel > >>In this scenerio the throttle (the one you step >> on) would be directly in control of the transmission.... as you press >> the throttle the transmission gears down to allow the engine to rev up >> and develop power as needed. The engine is always at full throttle >> except at idle when it is throttled due to lack of any sort of load. >> Such a system should work within reason....it may require conventional >> throttling at very low power settings (dual mode operation). It would > >I should have mentioned the economy mode but as I said that was a while >ago 8-) > >> be more ideal with some sort of variable camming so that the engine >> would develop efficient power throughout it's RPM range. None of >> these things is new or untried technology. The belt drive is not a >> very efficient system, but has a great virtue in simplicity. It has >> been used for many years in such diverse applications as combines, > >I knew some combines had then ( I worked on 2 or 3 over the years) > >> skid steer loaders, > >aren't bobcats hydrostatic > >> variable speed machine drives, and >> automobiles...... The Dutch built DAF used such as system. Camming of >> an engine so that it will breath well at low RPM and also at high RPM >> can be handled in several ways. The issue is overlap. The greater >> the overlap the less efficient at low RPM, but the better at high RPM. >> The simplest approach is the Rhodes type lifter which contains an oil >> chamber and bleed hole.... at low RPM the oil bleeds out more than at >> high RPM simply as a function of time. I have greatly changed the >> running characteristics of several engines which were over cammed by >> simply changing over to mechanical rather than hydraulic lifters, and >> adjusting lash until I was satisfied with the result...... One such >> engine has run over 50K so far with .035 lash on mechanical lifters > >that must make a racket, but sounds fun > >> running on a hydraulic lifter high performance cam (FE series Ford >> engine). The other option would be a dual cam system of some sort set >> up with centrifugal advance/retard. This would allow one cam to >> advance the opening times, and one to retard the closing times of two >> sets of valves. This would not be difficult to accomplish with some >> engines. Caterpillar uses such a system on injector pumps on some >> engines for timing advance... it is located right on the drive gear. > >honda vtech does this doesn't it?? > >> >> Just some ideas....... H.W. > >cool one thing I really like about this group is all the different ideas >that come up > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pat Ford >> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> >> Date: Friday, April 30, 1999 7:40 AM >> Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs >> >> >> >Previously, you (James Ballenger) wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Howard Wilkinson wrote: >> >> >> >> > The most reasonable way to control engine power output is by >> >> > gearing so that RPM is controlled by load. A continuously variable >> >> > transmission system could allow an engine to operate at full throttle >> >> > all the time except at idle when it would need to be throttled. >> >> > Allowing the engine to always operate at WOT would greatly increase >> >> > efficiency. H.W. >> >> >> >> Ok, I know this isnt right. If we had continously variable transmissions, >> >> we would be running them at peak torque not at wot. VE is greatest at peak >> >> torque, the reason we rev engines higher to acheive high horsepower is to combat >> >> inefficient gearing. At wot, there is significantly reduced ve and not enough >> >> time to get good mixture and combustion, therefore lower torque. The reason >> >> this is an asset is because it produces more torque per unit time, ie power. >> >> With a continuously variable transmission we could run the engine all day long >> >> at peak torque and get double or triple the gas mileage, more power, and reduced >> >> wear. Again, im just a student so tell me where i goofed but I have discussed >> >> this with others before and feel somehat confident that this is right. >> >> >> >> James Ballenger >> >> >> > >> >years ago when the Subaru Justy came out and had the ECVT ( I worked at a subaru >> >dealer at the time) the engine would if you tromped on the gas would go up to >> >the peak of the torque curve and stay there. It was amazing, the damn things were >> >only a bit slowwer then a bmw M3 ( the dealer was also bmw and saab dealer). We >> >actualy had drags with the bimmer and saabs and the 3 cyl justy was at the top >> >of the cars we sold. The fuel economy was great just the lifetime of the tranny >> >wasn't so good. The ECVT was like a snowmobile pulley system but the belt worked >> >under compression, and there was a magnetic clutch that used iron filings to transfer >> >power. The othe funny thing was reverse was just an idler after everything else, >> >the early justy would go as fast in reverse as forward. > > >-- >Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > > From owly at mcn.net Sat May 1 06:12:14 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 02:12:14 -0400 Subject: High economy, was Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Gary: The Sandia type engine (variable displacement) I mentioned would eliminate the need for extreme gearing to accomplish this...too bad they don't build them. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Gary Derian To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, April 30, 1999 5:30 PM Subject: High economy, was Fuel injection plugs >With a CVT, you need a map of power and BSFC vs rpm and throttle. Then you >operate the engine only at the highest BSFC values for a given power >requirement. It is not so simple as WOT all the time but pretty close. >When power requirements are low, the engine would operate at very low rpm >but nearly WOT. > >Years ago (20) I achieved 61 mpg on a Vega at a fuel economy rally using >economy techniques. I set the carb for lean WOT and lugged the engine in >high gear only from 20 mph to 40 mph. At that speed I turned off the engine >and coasted. At 20 mph, I engaged the engine again and lugged up to 40 mph. >It really surprised all the guys in VW Rabbit Diesels. I had the car >ballasted to 3800 lb to maximize the ton-miles per gallon and still got 61 >mpg. This was on a 100 mile loop. > >Van Dorne has built a CVT for the Williams F1 car that could handle 700 hp. > >Electric or hydraulic drive allows the engine to operate more efficiently >but the drive train loses efficiency compared to a direct mechanical drive. >Mechanical to electric to mechanical is at best 75%. Hydraulic has high >losses at high speeds. The one advantage for electric with a small battery >and small engine is regenerative braking and the ability to turn off the >engine for short periods of driving. > >Gary Derian > > From owly at mcn.net Sat May 1 06:12:16 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 02:12:16 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Aaron: Unfortunately I have yet to see a water injection system that I like..... also up here there are not enough months when water injection is practical. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Willis To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, April 30, 1999 5:37 PM Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs >At 09:20 AM 5/2/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Pat: >> It has been said that the greatest efficiency is achieved > >>which we cruise most cars. Variable displacement would be another, >>but so far has not been introduced. Another is turbocharging a small >>engine on the theory that it will develop greater efficiency at lower >>power settings, and the boost will help it develop enough power when >>needed. This has several downsides.... Compression must be lowered, >>or high octane fuel must be used or timing must be retarded, or all >>three to prevent detonation... > > Yes, BUT...what about that old water injection thread we had going a while >ago? Wouldn't efective intercooling and/or water injection let a >"standard" (normal compression, timing, etc) engine live under boost? > Specifically, I'm thinking of a Ford Festiva (Mazda 121) or Geo Metro >(Suzuki Swift) or .. dare I say ... Subaru Justy ECVT ... with a small >turbo/intercooler combo. Nice economy most of the time, but with a bit of >power to get you around trucks and up hills, etc. Am I fooling myself? > Nice thing about the Festiva is that rumor has it you can slam-dunk an >Escort GT, Mazda Miata or similar Mazda engine in it, which would be a nice >backup plan if the forced-inductionj baby didn't perform to your (my) >expectations. > OK, guys, where am, I going wrong on this one? > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International > From owly at mcn.net Sat May 1 06:12:19 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 02:12:19 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: Flatheads....... Well don't let's forget Briggs & Stratton, Tecumsa, Kohler........ H.W. -----Original Message----- From: CLsnyder To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, April 30, 1999 6:39 PM Subject: Re: Flame - Not >A "flathead" motor is also called a side-valve engine. The valves are in the >block, beside the piston. They tend to be low compression engines. Common >examples are the old Chrysler six (up to 1959), the early Ford V8 up to >about 1953) and the old Hudson and Rambler American (up to about 1962) >----- Original Message ----- >From: H Villemure >To: >Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 2:24 PM >Subject: Re: Flame - Not > > >> Robert, >> >> I am more of an ignoramus than most on this list- just a fresh >> mechanical engineering graduate. Could you detail what a *flathead* >> motor design consists of? >> >> Thanks! >> >> And about your Mach 1- what transplant? The Cobra 427? Talk about torque >monster... >> >> Robert Harris wrote: >> > >> > It wasn't supposed to be a flame - just exasperation at the inability of >> > people to understand that what's new and hot - generally is not. >> > >> > Example - name the most modern valve configuration Overhead Valve, Dual >> > Overhead Cam, Valve in block ( flathead ) >> > >> > Correct answer FLATHEAD. It was evolved to reduce the production costs >> > associated with OHV or OHC. >> > >> > Every time you see a "new" engine idea, check with the guy at the patent >> > office. Most likely it was invented during the pre-WW II "racing" era >where >> > each major power sponsored outrageous prizes to develop the military >> > technology needed for the coming war. And when national survival is at >risk, >> > it inspires a fantastic spurt of development. >> > >> > And please don't draw inferences from the "current" implementation of a >> > specific technology as to what that technology is capable of. I know I >come >> > across as cranky and an old pharte at times, but when you small box >categorize >> > things, you lose the beauty of using something in ways that expand the >mind >> > and solve the problem eloquently. >> > >> > 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" >> > 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" >> > 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant >> > 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" >> > >> > Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore >> >> -- >> Helene V. >> ___________________ >> welcome to mk2 at onelist.com >> visit us at http://come.to/helene-and-matti >> > > From owly at mcn.net Sat May 1 06:12:20 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 02:12:20 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: James: BMEP is an acronym for Brake Mean Effective Pressure...... It may be considered to mean the pressure developed in the cylinder by the combusion process. At low throttle settings BMEP is low, at WOT in the max torque range BMEP is max....... Actual BMEP values vary between engines as a result of compression ratio, boosting, camming, etc. The max torque developed by an engine per cubic inch displacement is a direct relation to max BMEP. Thus at high RPM BMEP values are lower than at low RPM due to lower induction efficiency, although the power output BHP is greater. In general engines live longer operating at lower BMEP..... H.W. -----Original Message----- From: James Ballenger To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, April 30, 1999 7:40 PM Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: > >> James: >> I must take issue with this statement.... my experience with >> engines suggests that this is far from the truth: >> >> >If the engine is not throttled and remains where it will make peak >> power it >> >will have significantly less wear on the engine. >> >> My experience with numerous gas engines over the years would suggest >> that there is a far stronger correlation between % Max BMEP operation >> and engine wear. At WOT (Max BMEP) combustion temps are greater, the >> lubrication is less effective, and bottom end stresses and bearing >> wear are higher. Greatest engine life, and minimum wear appear to be >> at lower throttle settings, and constant load. This may not be >> correct according to the experts, but this is what I've observed to be >> true. H.W. > >I am not familiar with the max bmep term, could you explain? One this to >consider is the changes that could be made if this were the case though. >At max ve, we could optimize the ignition timing/cam duration/timing to >make max power at this specific point. By doing so we could significantly >reduce advance and therefore negative torque on the engine btdc. We would >also have less wear because the engine rpm would be constant and would not >experience varying loads on the bearings and such. Though temps would be >greater as you mentioned. Load would not be an issue because the >transmission would compensate, always giving the engine some load. The >magnitude of the load would be in the engineers hands. At this point it >seems as though we would be dealing more with transmission reliability >than engine reliability. > >James Ballenger > > From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 1 06:22:24 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 02:22:24 -0400 Subject: Need Fuel Injector Data Message-ID: There needs to be something to offset the forgotten birthdays, meetings, bill payments, appointments, etc. Thanks. Shannen Steve Ravet wrote: > > "swagaero". Why do I remember stuff like that? > > --steve > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > There was a website which mentioned using Saturn parts for aircraft > > EFI conversions. Can't quite remember the name, but I will post it > > when I do. If you can't wait, the person who owned the site was a > > member of this list at one time. His posts should be in the archives. > > Shannen > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > Couple things come to mind. > > > GM 1987 Sunbird 2.0L 4 cylinder Turbo might be close, they are P+H. > > > www.lindertech.com that's off the top of my head but they are in gasoline > > > Alley > > > Indianapolis, IN. Then RC Eng in SoCal.. > > > How much info do you have about that ecms prom calibrations?. > > > If your point man is gone, you might need to reevaluate your posistion. > > > Bruce > > > > > > > A friend of mine and I are working on an unusual project. We are adapting > > > a > > > > '93 Saturn ECM and two DIS modules to run a Continental O-200 aircraft > > > > engine. The engine is 200 C.I. (3.3 L) 4 cylinder dual plug and should > > > make > > > > about 120 HP at about 2800 RPM. > > > > > > > > Can anyone supply us with the information or give us an idea of where we > > > can > > > > find a chart with the injector data? > > -- > Steve Ravet > sravet at arm.com > Advanced Risc Machines, INC > www.arm.com From jballeng at vt.edu Sat May 1 10:13:01 1999 From: jballeng at vt.edu (James Ballenger) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 06:13:01 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > I don't argue with the above. What I am saying is that if you run it at > max VE without throttling it, you will generate MUCH more power than you > need. If you throttle it, you will not have a good VE. Throttling works > by lowering VE. I agree. But do you have to throttle? > Agreed. There is no throttling with a properly used CVT. You reduce > power by LOWERING THE RPM of the entine to the point where it is > producing the desired power. > > The engine is constantly at WOT, and the power output is controlled by > controling the engine speed. Um I don't agree with this, with a perfect cvt the change in applied power would be due to gearing changes. > I am comparing a throttled engine at the speed of max VE with an > unthrottled engine that has been slowed down enough to reduce the power > to the desired level. Based on that, my statement is correct. Your absolutely correct. Our disagreement seems to be in the function of the cvt itself. > IF YOU RUN AN ENGINE AT MAXIMUM VE WITHOUT THROTTLING IT, YOU WILL GET MORE > POWER THAN YOU NEED, AND NOTHING YOU CAN DO WITH THE TRANSMISSION (besides > wasting the power through friction) WILL REDUCE THE POWER LEVEL. > If you are cruising at a speed that requires 25 HP to maintain, and your > engine is capable of putting out 200 HP, you have to either throttle it > or run it at a speed where it only generates 25 HP. You CAN NOT run it > at its peak VE point or its peak power point and only generate 25 HP > unless you throttle it. > There, I said the same thing in several different ways. Hopefully, the > concepts won't be misunderstood. Please read it carefully before writing > a rebuttal. I have read it carefully and try to do so with all the messages I reply to. I enjoy learning the theory involved here. Which is what I am trying to do, learn. There are few perfect students and I, unfortunately, do misunderstand concepts. If you feel it is a chore to respond to my comments, you don't have too as much as I do enjoy the conversation. When we are in first gear of a typical car today, we have a high (numerically) gear ratio which increases the effective torque at the driving wheels to get the car going, right? Why isnt the reverse true? With a perfect cvt, there is not limitation on the gearing so we can reduce the engine torque through very low (numerically) gearing, is there a reason this is not feasible with a perfect cvt? By these means we could also control the load on the engine... James Ballenger From jballeng at vt.edu Sat May 1 10:15:08 1999 From: jballeng at vt.edu (James Ballenger) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 06:15:08 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: "David A. Cooley" wrote: > Most injectors will go to 80 maybe 100 PSI differential tops across them > before they will either stick fully open or stick fully closed. How does the increased pressure affect control of the pulsewidth, if at all? James Ballenger From jballeng at vt.edu Sat May 1 10:20:08 1999 From: jballeng at vt.edu (James Ballenger) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 06:20:08 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Howard Wilkinson wrote: > The reason for the stepped transmission is to increase gear range > beyond what the belt drive can provide.... you'd probably have to use > an axle ratio of 1x (not available as far as I know) to get high > enough gearing to load an engine down under virtually any conditions Could a second belt system be employed in connection with the first to offer a wider range of ratios? I guess it could be 1:1 and inactive until engaged by rpm/vacuum and then be able to increase or decrease the ratio as neccessary. James Ballenger From mail at darkstar.mv.com Sat May 1 10:57:54 1999 From: mail at darkstar.mv.com (Peter D. Hipson) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 06:57:54 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: Your typical (cheap, non-ohv) 4-stroke lawnmower engine is a flat head--the head has nothing but holes for plugs, no valves. The valves are mounted in the block instead. At 02:24 PM 4/30/99 -0400, you wrote: >Robert, > >I am more of an ignoramus than most on this list- just a fresh >mechanical engineering graduate. Could you detail what a *flathead* >motor design consists of? > >Thanks! Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com Sat May 1 11:32:50 1999 From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 07:32:50 -0400 Subject: cam grinds for SC Message-ID: In a message dated 4/29/99 7:13:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jsg at donet.com writes: << Subj: cam grinds for SC Date: 4/29/99 7:13:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time From: jsg at donet.com Sender: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm about to install a Vortech supercharger on my SBC 305 TPI, and I'm thinking about changing cams too. The vortech FAQ has this to say about cams: 4) What is the correct cam to run with my supercharger? Cam selections are best discussed with the various cam manufacturers. Many people select cams which are not the correct choice for centrifugal superchargers. When discussing the cam with a manufacturer make sure they understand a Turbo cam or a cam for a Roots style supercharger is different than a centrifugal cam. Generally speaking the supercharger and the cam do the same thing (increase volumetric efficiency), be cautious of choosing a cam that has large amounts of lift and duration. Ideally for a street application retaining decent idle, emissions and drivability are important, for this reason we suggest a "moderate" camshaft. Given the choice between two cams we suggest the milder of the two for street applications. Of course that is of little help, and I would like some idea of what's going on before contacting manufactures. So, what does make for a good cam for applications like this? How do these cams differ from turbo or roots specific cams? john >> Hi John, Man, where do I start........this thread could be extremely long but I'll try to keep it to the point.....Turbo cams diff from supercharged cams for two major reasons.....backpressure between the exhaust valve and turbo and spool up times,and truely a bunch more incidental ones....but that's a whole different discussion...... As for the supercharged stuff here goes......There is probably a very good cam for your app available off the shelf or if not can be custom ground at a reasonable cost,,,but I will need more info from you to recommend one......As for some experience on the subject I would like to share with the group this regarding lobe separation and overlap cycles.......overlap cycles affect octane requirements and fuel efficiency...... example....540 bbc 7.5:1 compression 100 octane fuel 775 hp 5500 rpm 11 lbs boost. engine would not detonate on the dyno with 92 octane but if loaded for long periods of time(boat) would begin detonating within 7-8 minutes unless we used 100 octane....cam was 222-226 @.050 on 116LC......Customer wants to run 92 octane, when decreased timing far enough to eliminate detonation EGT's would go too high for extended use....advise of decrease in fuel mileage and install cam 246-254 @.050 on 116LC. engine makes the same 775hp at 5500 but now is only 8lbs of boost. Intake air temps within 10 degrees of each other but requires almost 20% more fuel(using Horiba airfuel meter and allowing an offset for the overlap to scew the sensor readings) Egt's are now 1375-1400 and stable on 92 octane for unlimited periods of time........The overlap cycle helps cool the surface temp of the combustion chamber and piston and exhaust valve...but results in a waste of charge out the exhaust.......same customer later wants 1000 hp, turn boost up to 11 lbs and engine makes 980hp at 5600 but jumped from 11lbs boost at 5600 to 14lbs of boost at 5800.....VE of engine fell off at 5600 and supercharger did not.....Install new cam with exact same overlap cycle but intake valve closing event 20 degrees later.....engine makes exact same power to 5600 but makes 1184 hp at 6100 rpm at same 11lbs of boost......This told me my heads were flowing as much air as the supercharger could push(pressure had equalized in the cylinder in comparison to the manifold) until there wasn't enough time(RPM vs valve event) to continue to fill.....again required 100 octane fuel to make the higher horsepower but was very stable and hey how long does it take to change pulleys to run 92octane????? As far as cams go in reference to centrifugal vs. roots....with a roots type the only thing holding the air back is the throttle blade,,,but with a centrifugal it is also rpm dependant and the wrong camshaft will produce less torque at low speeds than you probably had stock.......and in reference to the cylinder head stuff, if I had poorer heads on this app I would have gained hp by adding intake closing event time....another way to help a poor environment such as a stock engine......I have ended up with as high as 121LC cams on some supercharged street engines just to fill the cylinder more without giving up the effiency.....but you might think about an EGT guage if your gonna tow.........I know I have just touched the surface of this conversation but will attempt to answer any questions I can.....I don't know everything there is to know about every app regarding supercharger cams but am more than willing to help with the experiences I have had. John, I would like to know any mods done to your engine,,,,static compression ratio,,,,rpm band and how much hp you're trying to achieve.....is it going to be a flat tappet hydraulic or hydraulic roller????? Anyway, I hope that helps and I'll try to respond as quickly as possible,,,,,just doesn't seem to be enough hours in the day....it's 4:30 am here and gotta be up soon to tune some stuff at the track....ttyl -Carl Summers From jballeng at vt.edu Sat May 1 11:38:46 1999 From: jballeng at vt.edu (James Ballenger) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 07:38:46 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Howard Wilkinson wrote: > James: > BMEP is an acronym for Brake Mean Effective Pressure...... It may > be considered to mean the pressure developed in the cylinder by the > combusion process. At low throttle settings BMEP is low, at WOT in > the max torque range BMEP is max....... Actual BMEP values vary > between engines as a result of compression ratio, boosting, camming, > etc. The max torque developed by an engine per cubic inch > displacement is a direct relation to max BMEP. Thus at high RPM BMEP > values are lower than at low RPM due to lower induction efficiency, > although the power output BHP is greater. In general engines live > longer operating at lower BMEP..... H.W. Thanks for the explanation Howard. It would make sense since most of the timing is in by the time todays engines reach peak torque so that at this point an engine would be doing the most negative torque btdc. A lot more bearing wear would probably result. It seems if we were building engines for performance at that one point, we could minimize it though. Also high rpm failures and varying loads due to changing engine speed would no longer be a factor. James Ballenger From bearbvd at sni.net Sat May 1 13:07:33 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 09:07:33 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: >Nah - some insane whacko is building a unique engine from various scrap parts >and ancient hot rod ideas. When it get's finished, it will be vaguely fordish >and definitely unusual and maybe not too expensive. Nice flame, Bob!! Greg > > >Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:24:55 -0400 >From: H Villemure >Subject: Re: Flame - Not > >Robert, > >deleted stuff > >And about your Mach 1- what transplant? The Cobra 427? Talk about torque >monster... > > >1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" >1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" >1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant >1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" > >Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore From bearbvd at sni.net Sat May 1 13:07:35 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 09:07:35 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: >Flatheads....... Well don't let's forget Briggs & Stratton, Tecumsa, >Kohler........ H.W. > Or Indians! (The engines, not the tribe!) Greg From bearbvd at sni.net Sat May 1 13:10:40 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 09:10:40 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: >Aaron: > Unfortunately I have yet to see a water injection system that I >like..... Stay tuned. also up here there are not enough months when water >injection is practical. Stay tuned. (Do not adjust your set!) Greg H.W. From bearbvd at sni.net Sat May 1 13:28:56 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 09:28:56 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: >You also commented about noise in the FE engine with .035 lash..... it >wasn't any louder than most solid lifter engines, and was in a 2 ton >cab over truck so lifter noise wasn't noticed...... supprisingly some >of the Ford factory specs for lifter adjustment on some of the stock >FE engines with solid lifters which were high performance engines in >the early & mid 60's were at or very close to this gap. You will find >this on some of the 390, 406, and 427 engines I believe..... Three >duces, solid lifter cam, and 400+ hp. Those were real engines!! >H.W. > The 421 Poncho and the 413 Max Wedge III each had it all over the 390/406 FE's! Whether your expert ear heard it or not, the take up ramps on solid lifter cams vs. hydraulic lifter cams are entirely different! The initial ramp on a hydraulic cam is quite quick, so as to set the check valve in the lifter closed. The initial ramp on a solid lifter cam is much gentler, so as to take up the lash with minimal impact on various valve train parts. If you run a solid cam with hydraulic lifters, the timing and lift will be inconsistent--generally less duration and lift at higher engine speeds, which is about the opposite of what you want. If you run a hydraulic cam with solid lifters, you subject your entire valve train to a lot of unnecessary impact--Which is OK I guess, if you have no respect for your engine, an infinite supply of money, or do not rev the engine to the potential of the cam you are running. But--I am sure that you knew that, and just hadn't told us yet! BTW--please start snipping the messages you reply to--not only does it take a lot of bandwidth when you do not do this, it takes forever do do it for you when replying! Regards, Greg From bearbvd at sni.net Sat May 1 14:10:56 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 10:10:56 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: >"David A. Cooley" wrote: > >> Most injectors will go to 80 maybe 100 PSI differential tops across them >> before they will either stick fully open or stick fully closed. > > How does the increased pressure affect control of the pulsewidth, if >at all? > >James Ballenger Flow through an injector per unit time will vary directly with the square root of the pressure across it. "Pressure across it" means the arithmetic difference between the gauge pressure in the fuel rail and the gauge pressure in the manifold at any given condition. At very short pulse widths, the higher pressure will affect the opening and closing characteristics of the injector enough that things will not be quite this simple. Kinsler FI has done a bunch of work with running injectors at high pressures. Regards, Greg From CEIJR at aol.com Sat May 1 14:33:02 1999 From: CEIJR at aol.com (CEIJR at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 10:33:02 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: James: Although we haven't done extensive testing yet, we have benched some injectors at varying pressures and pulse widths. As we suspected before setting up the bench, the generally accepted formulas are not very accurate. An increase in pulse from 2 ms to 4 ms does not exactly double flow. Nor does flow vary directly with the square root of the pressure. The dynamics of opening and closing are affected differently by pressure for different injector types and sizes, and obviously flow is affected by the percentage of the pulse a particular injector takes to open and close. Math is good for ballpark estimates, and injector selection, but bench testing and then dyno testing are unfortunately necessary for final tuning. Charlie Iliff From owly at mcn.net Sat May 1 14:35:41 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 10:35:41 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: James: There's got to be a million ways of accomplishing this...... The regular transmission with steps is more efficient than the belt drive. The idea here is that the belt drive provides the continuous stepless effect and the transmission provides ranges..... perhaps it isn't necessary, but I am assuming that at very light loads extreme high gearing will be required to load the engine enough to hold it down to the desired speed at WOT. This may not be necessary if you are willing to use a hybrid system which uses a conventional throttle when you get beyond your target operating range. That is to say if you optimise for typical highway driving so that you can gear enough to hold the engine down, probably on downgrades you'll have to resort to conventional throttling anyway. My thinking is that if you provide a high enough gear ratio to accomplish the objective of nearly always being able to throttle with the transmission, it will at times be necessary to gear down further than your belt drive transmission allows for power, just as gravity may overcome your ability to throttle with load at the other end. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: James Ballenger To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 01, 1999 5:22 AM Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: > >> The reason for the stepped transmission is to increase gear range >> beyond what the belt drive can provide.... you'd probably have to use >> an axle ratio of 1x (not available as far as I know) to get high >> enough gearing to load an engine down under virtually any conditions > > Could a second belt system be employed in connection with the first to >offer a wider range of ratios? I guess it could be 1:1 and inactive until >engaged by rpm/vacuum and then be able to increase or decrease the ratio >as neccessary. > >James Ballenger > > > From owly at mcn.net Sat May 1 14:35:44 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 10:35:44 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: Jim: Please explain the term "floating rod bearings"......... I've never heard it before...... The only "floating rod bearings" I've experienced are those which spin between the bearing and the rod.......... Definitely a bad deal.... forshadows doom! H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Davies To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 01, 1999 12:24 AM Subject: Re: Transplant > > >On Sat, 1 May 1999, Robert Harris wrote: > >> Nah - some insane whacko is building a unique engine from various scrap parts >> and ancient hot rod ideas. When it get's finished, it will be vaguely fordish >> and definitely unusual and maybe not too expensive. >> >Floating rod bearings too? > > > From owly at mcn.net Sat May 1 15:08:07 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 11:08:07 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Greg: Snip....... As regards your comments about cam ramp angles...... I was aware of that issue and don't regard it as relevant at the extreme lash involved...... 50K+ trouble free miles on this engine in a single axle semi tractor (391 engine) bear that out. Life expectancy of a gas engine in this application isn't much over about 80K no matter what engine you use, and it is still running strong and has been trouble free. H.W. From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Sat May 1 16:08:11 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:08:11 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection Message-ID: -> valve opens. On SEFI when does the fuel inject? It doesn't really matter. The intake port has plenty of turbulence. Most port injection systems are batched; for the few that are truly "sequential", the injector timing can be played with at idle for smoothness or emissions, but at quarter-power you'll be injecting through the whole intake stroke anyway; at full throttle the injector will be on most of the 720 degree cycle. From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Sat May 1 16:08:15 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:08:15 -0400 Subject: cam grinds for SC Message-ID: -> To my mind, roots type or centrifugal type superchargers would both -> benefit from small overlap cams. This is because these are the only -> engines that have greater intake pressure than exhaust pressure. Too -> much overlap just blows intake out the exhaust. Scavenging. From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Sat May 1 16:10:39 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:10:39 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: Try some out of box thinking. The propaganda is that Stratified Charge is to facilitate burning an overall lean mixture thereby increasing milage. The actual working is that a normal to richish mixture is first ignited and this burning charge is then used to ignite a much more reluctant main charge. Using a fuel scavenged pre-chamber ( one where the fuel is shot thru the pre chamber into the main chamber and the ignition takes place in the pre-chamber) , think about using two fuels. The first - thru the prechamber, is an easy to ignite, relatively fast burning fuel that will generate a nice flame jet and readily ignite the main chamber. The next, a slower burning, much harder to ignite main fuel that is admitted to the cylinder in a more normal fashion. What now happens is that the Flame Jet lights off the slower burning main charge rather quickly and fast normal combustion now occurs. The pre-chamber fuel is something like say gasoline. The main chamber is say Methane ( Natural Gas ) for the economy minded. No problem - just a little complication. But suppose that the main mixture was very rich and it was something very hard to ignite - such as a blend on alcohol and nitro-methane? The prime power limiting factor for such blends is how fast and how much can you get the fuel lit off. Even with super energy twin plug systems, much of the fuel does not burn in the cylinder but finishes combustion in the exhaust pipes. The Flame Jet ( directly stolen - its still a stratified charge - just the fuel and mixture considerations have changed ) could probably be used for a significant increase in power. And nothing stops the pre chamber fuel from being something different like gasoline from the main chamber and further, nothing stops you from using mutually incompatible fuels in both chambers, since the only contact with each other will be in combustion. Contemplate gasoline with a heavy hydrazine shot for the pre-chamber and mutually incompatible Nitro-Methane in the main. Massive power effects from both - with no time for the slow incompatibility products to form. This is where learning how and why and not blanketly parroting the latest hype pays off. Its the out of box thinking that violates nothing but would never be thought of that wins races and succeeds well whenever tried. Think about it. 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore From zxv at istar.ca Sat May 1 16:15:14 1999 From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:15:14 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: I know this is NC but I"ve exhausted my related Nissan/Datsun list w/ no good info. A few of us have sb chevy V8's and several have experienced heater core problems d/2 higher/greater coolant flows/pressure (I don't know specifically), they've replaced w/ brand new units and halfway thru winding out and leaving another NSX (their ride, mine wouldn't do that;^) their heater core will fail again. They only discussed ways to just bypass the heater core which is simple but I live in the often rainy pacific nw so need heat occassionally throughout the year and would prefer some sort of pressure reducer mini-manifold but I"m not familiar w/ what hardwar is out their or the simplest way to solve this. I'm not sure if it's simply a matter of too much flow or pressure or combo of both that fails them. Mine's still OK but I haven't ran it very hard yet and want to preempt a painful heater core R&R etc. thanks for any and all ideas in advance Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From zxv at istar.ca Sat May 1 16:22:04 1999 From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:22:04 -0400 Subject: torque convertor choice? Message-ID: probably NC as well but I do plan on installing my holley TB 4Di system shortly so it's related to my EFI setup.. My car is in the tranny shop this week and it's a rare time it's out of the car (700R4)so thought I'd run by my present converter and see if you recc'd a different one. Refresher... 3100lb loaded car w/ 206/212 @.050 Xtreme cam, 9.5:1, performer RPM heads, and stock bottom end 327 w/ good flows, ~300flywheelhp anyhow. they dynoed my tranny today and said my convertor is a 1550rpm, my car is a daily year round driver that gets lots of city driving and some hard track days roadracing/and autocross in the summer. Tranny guy seemed to think a 21-2200 stall would be much better suited. Oh yeah, I may bump the cam up a level in the future (possible a roller) but certainly not milder. comments ideers? gains/losses to a 2000+ stall? much mpg loss??, read about the S10 '95+ convertor being a bolt in 2000stall for the 700, my torque would probably bump that to 2200? Should it stand up in my application? I heard they fragged in some Impalas but they're a lot heavier. THe S10 95+ has same internals as the vette's 700R4 convertor if that helps. thanks in advance ! Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 1 16:34:49 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:34:49 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: >Caterpillar has carried this to extremes and > >has some diesel engines running ungodly high pressures....I don't know > >the exact figures. On our International it's 2,800-3,200 PSI. But, this is diesel. > > I propose changing out the injectors on my vehicle with injectors > >rated for lower flow, and raising the pressure to compensate. > >Pressure would be adjusted in "open loop" mode using an exhaust > >analyzer. It has been said that most injectors are rated at pressures > >far above what they are operated at. > > I'm sure this is far from an original idea, and that some of you > >have done it..... How much difference does it make, and what about > >pump load at the higher pressures..... how much increase in pressure > >is required. > > I'd like to hear about peoples experiences and mishaps doing this > > Most injectors will go to 80 maybe 100 PSI differential tops across them > before they will either stick fully open or stick fully closed. Some of the disc type completely lock closed at as low as 90, the pintle "seem" OK to 110, or so. Again this are reported numbers, but the 90 and disc was from a reputable source. Grumpy > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== > From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sat May 1 16:50:05 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:50:05 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: At 06:17 AM 5/1/99 -0400, you wrote: > > How does the increased pressure affect control of the pulsewidth, if at >all? The pressure on the Pintle or disc (depending on type) will cause the injector to take longer to open once current is applied. It will get to a point where the magnetic force from it's coil cannot overcome the force the fuel is putting on the pintle/disc and it sticks closed, or if the design has the fuel pressure in such a way it aids the opening and closing of the injector, it will reach a point where the return spring cannot close the injector against the fuel pressure, sticking open. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From cosmic.ray at juno.com Sat May 1 16:57:07 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:57:07 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: On Sat, 01 May 1999 06:21:53 -0400 James Ballenger writes: > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: > >> The reason for the stepped transmission is to increase gear range >> beyond what the belt drive can provide.... you'd probably have to use >> an axle ratio of 1x (not available as far as I know) to get high >> enough gearing to load an engine down under virtually any conditions > > Could a second belt system be employed in connection with the first to >offer a wider range of ratios? I guess it could be 1:1 and inactive until >engaged by rpm/vacuum and then be able to increase or decrease the ratio >as neccessary. > >James Ballenger Gears are more efficient than belts. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From cosmic.ray at juno.com Sat May 1 16:57:11 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:57:11 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: >> Agreed. There is no throttling with a properly used CVT. You reduce >> power by LOWERING THE RPM of the entine to the point where it is >> producing the desired power. >> >> The engine is constantly at WOT, and the power output is controlled by >> controling the engine speed. > >Um I don't agree with this, with a perfect cvt the change in applied power >would be due to gearing changes. CHANGING THE GEARING CHANGES THE ENGINE SPEED! THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT! > >> I am comparing a throttled engine at the speed of max VE with an >> unthrottled engine that has been slowed down enough to reduce the power >> to the desired level. Based on that, my statement is correct. > >Your absolutely correct. Our disagreement seems to be in the function of the >cvt itself. A CVT doesn't change the power (besides the ordinary efficiency losses). If you attempt to reduce the torque to the drive wheels by changing the gear ratio, you will either slow down the engine or speed up the vehicle. An unthrottled engine running at a specific speed (max torque, for example) is going to put out a specific amount of power. If this is more power than is required to maintain the desired cruise speed, the vehicle will speed up. If you want to prevent this without throttling - that is, if you want to maintain the same cruise speed without throttling, you will need to change the gear ratio. Assuming that you don't speed up, the engine will HAVE to slow down. Ray Drouillard ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From cosmic.ray at juno.com Sat May 1 16:57:11 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 12:57:11 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:21:36 -0400 (EDT) William T Wilson writes: >On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, H Villemure wrote: > >> I am more of an ignoramus than most on this list- just a fresh >> mechanical engineering graduate. Could you detail what a *flathead* >> motor design consists of? > >Yeah.. the heads are flat. ;) Nothing in them but the plugs. > >During the early part of the century up through the 50's, Ford made >flathead V8s which were extremely good engines and used in a wide variety >of their cars and a number of early street rods. Not only Ford used >flathead engines though; I've got one in a '55 Jeep, which is an inline >6-cylinder. I believe that they were used with the inline 4 cylinder Jeep engines, also. > >There are some nice advantages to the flathead, not the least of which is >simplicity. There are no timing belts, chains, or any of that muck; it's >all gear driven. It is somewhat hard to get at the cams, though. Valves >are in the block right by the manifolds, so even a valve job is easy. It >is a very simple design. However, the performance is lacking compared to >OHV or OHC type engines. > No worry about the valve colliding with the piston. I imagine that if one wanted to make one today, ceramic coating could be used to combat the disadvantage of heat loss through the odd-shaped combustion chamber. Also, the more modern notion of a "pinch zone" wouldn't be too hard to impliment, and could actually take up the whole area of the piston. Ray ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 1 17:29:16 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 13:29:16 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: What I do is, epoxy the 5/8" heater hose fitting on the manifold shut, and then cure it at 200dF. Then drill a 5/16" hole in it. That is enough for heat and defrost, here in Ohio. If you want really good control over the heater coolant, use a heater valve off a 87 Buick GN/Ttype, it's vacuum applied, On, type. If when ya do the cam, on the passenger side of the water pump is a hole in the water pump/block. Tap that out and put a 1/8 pipe plug in, it. Then drill a 1/16 or 1/8" hole in it. Also, a 1/8" hole in the thermostat. The above is just what works for me. Bruce > I know this is NC but I"ve exhausted my related Nissan/Datsun list w/ no > good info. > A few of us have sb chevy V8's and several have experienced heater core > problems d/2 higher/greater coolant flows/pressure (I don't know > specifically), they've replaced w/ brand new units and halfway thru winding > out and leaving another NSX (their ride, mine wouldn't do that;^) their > heater core will fail again. > They only discussed ways to just bypass the heater core which is simple but > I live in the often rainy pacific nw so need heat occassionally throughout > the year and would prefer some sort of pressure reducer mini-manifold but > I"m not familiar w/ what hardwar is out their or the simplest way to solve > this. I'm not sure if it's simply a matter of too much flow or pressure or > combo of both that fails them. Mine's still OK but I haven't ran it very > hard yet and want to preempt a painful heater core R&R etc. > Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Sat May 1 17:43:16 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 13:43:16 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: Greetings, After spending most of the morning wandering around two local junkyards, I lucked out and found two of the elusive 7749 ECMs, one passed my "power up" test, the second one didn't, and the yard I got them from said they'd exchange the bad one when they get a wrecked turbo sunbird in later today (which means middle of next week to everyone else). Also picked up a 2-bar MAP sensor using GM part numbers as a reference, for $15. It was sitting on a shelf believe it or not, so that piece is done. Coincidentally, the body harness I snagged to give my old beater truck power everything (windows, locks, cruise, digital dash) plugs right into two of the three underhood ECM harnesses with ease, and I have to verify the wiring to ensure I don't have any ground and batt leads interconnecting. At least the connectors fit... moving wires around has become quite easy after all the practice I'm getting! Sorry for the cross post... so many people have given me help and advice I wanted to make sure you all know I appreciate it !!!! Oh, and I pressure tested my homemade fuel rails this morning and they leak right through the aluminum tubing. I found that odd. I know aluminum is somewhat porous compared to other metals, but 100psi of air pressure on the end of the fuel rail, submerging it into a litter box full of water resulted in small bubbles forming on the surface of the aluminum. When the pressure is released, the bubbles appear to receed back into the aluminum. Very odd. Just thought you'd all get a kick out of it. --- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology "Leadership in IT" Bridgeport, CT 06606 Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com Voice: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 From zxv at istar.ca Sat May 1 17:49:55 1999 From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 13:49:55 -0400 Subject: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Message-ID: well here's the last of my q's that have gone unresolved off other resources.... Local super comp dragster racing team has been selling of some unused new stuff in the local penny ads. They have one custom Bruce Crower ground roller cam, 650 lift, 300 duration w/ 105 centre left brand new that's too conservative for their efforts of late for $100CD. They sold a 2nd one same specs to a 'vette owner who had it reground to 575 lift, 112 lobe centres. I'll check out the regrind price from the local grind guru's "Shadbolt" (any horror stories on them? I've only heard good so far), but at their price I should be able to get a reground roller for 30% or so below new and to my own custom specs, assuming their's room in this monster for a 214/218 at 114 or 115 or similar (or v. open to reccomendations....). I know I'd need the Bronze distr. gear for $40CD or so as well. Just checking this out. For their cost I might just pick it up and decide later as I don't think resale 'netwise would be hard to break even. thanks again Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 1 17:50:45 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 13:50:45 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: > > How does the increased pressure affect control of the pulsewidth, if > >at all? > >James Ballenger > Flow through an injector per unit time will vary directly with the square > root of the pressure across it. "Pressure across it" means the arithmetic > difference between the gauge pressure in the fuel rail and the gauge > pressure in the manifold at any given condition. > At very short pulse widths, the higher pressure will affect the opening and > closing characteristics of the injector enough that things will not be > quite this simple. Speaking specifically of "on" times of less than 2 msec. most all injectors get "erratic", in their flow rates. Pintle are the least, disc being worst. This was done at just 3 bar test pressures, so I'd imagine at higher PSI they would be even worse. Some time ago Greg H rattled on about rising rate regulators, and turn down ratios, or some such stuff over my head, but after seeing the pix off Mike Pitts set up using one of Carl S's riasing rate regulators, looks like the road to go, IMHO.. I'm still really curious about seeing some details about how an injector acts with a min "off" time. This 2 msec might apply at both ends of the scale. So just running a step from, 2 msec to 100% duty cycle might be the answer. Or just hoping for the best and program thru the jump, and let the injector do as it will.. Happy > > Kinsler FI has done a bunch of work with running injectors at high pressures. > Regards, Greg From steve.ravet at arm.com Sat May 1 18:45:48 1999 From: steve.ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 14:45:48 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: The JTR S-10 book shows 2 Everco 5/8" heater hose fittings, one with a built-in restriction (3/8"). Part #H2894. They also list a similar GM part, #10039163, used on some 4cyl S-10s, to restrict flow. I am pretty sure there is an in-line restrictor used on some Corvettes, but I can't find in in JTR book. > > I know this is NC but I"ve exhausted my related Nissan/Datsun list w/ no > > good info. > > A few of us have sb chevy V8's and several have experienced heater core > > problems d/2 higher/greater coolant flows/pressure (I don't know > > specifically), they've replaced w/ brand new units and halfway thru > winding > > out and leaving another NSX (their ride, mine wouldn't do that;^) their > > heater core will fail again. > > They only discussed ways to just bypass the heater core which is simple > but > > I live in the often rainy pacific nw so need heat occassionally throughout > > the year and would prefer some sort of pressure reducer mini-manifold but > > I"m not familiar w/ what hardwar is out their or the simplest way to solve > > this. I'm not sure if it's simply a matter of too much flow or pressure > or > > combo of both that fails them. Mine's still OK but I haven't ran it very > > hard yet and want to preempt a painful heater core R&R etc. > > Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet at arm.com www.arm.com From sganz at wgn.net Sat May 1 19:23:13 1999 From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 15:23:13 -0400 Subject: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Message-ID: You can do some regrinding to rollers, I did, but it was almost not worth it. The problem that I was told is that if you do too much you need to have it re-heatreated, and then it typically gets out of wack in terms of straightness or so he said. They can take some off and change the profile a bit, but you need to check with a grinder that can do it to see how much and actually what it will cost. In the long run, more problems then it's worth, just get the grind you want and save the exercise. Sandy At 10:49 AM 5/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >well here's the last of my q's that have gone unresolved off other >resources.... > >Local super comp dragster racing team has been selling of some unused new >stuff in the local penny ads. They have one custom Bruce Crower ground >roller cam, 650 lift, 300 duration w/ 105 centre left brand new that's too >conservative for their efforts of late for $100CD. They sold a 2nd one >same specs to a 'vette owner who had it reground to 575 lift, 112 lobe centres. > >I'll check out the regrind price from the local grind guru's "Shadbolt" >(any horror stories on them? I've only heard good so far), but at their >price I should be able to get a reground roller for 30% or so below new and >to my own custom specs, assuming their's room in this monster for a 214/218 >at 114 or 115 or similar (or v. open to reccomendations....). I know I'd >need the Bronze distr. gear for $40CD or so as well. > >Just checking this out. For their cost I might just pick it up and decide >later as I don't think resale 'netwise would be hard to break even. > >thanks again > >Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada > > '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR >Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the >straights > >mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 >http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml >http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a >Z belongs From zxv at istar.ca Sat May 1 20:33:42 1999 From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 16:33:42 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: At 01:38 PM 5/1/99 +0100, you wrote: >The JTR S-10 book shows 2 Everco 5/8" heater hose fittings, one with a >built-in restriction (3/8"). Part #H2894. They also list a similar GM >part, #10039163, used on some 4cyl S-10s, to restrict flow. > >I am pretty sure there is an in-line restrictor used on some Corvettes, >but I can't find in in JTR book. Thanks for the info so far guys! I have two JTR books (TPI/TBI & ZV8's) but can't afford to buy every one for fun reading. So the above fitting is a pipe thread 'union' w/ an inline restrictor orifice? I suppose I could make one from a piece of aluminum roundstock or any other ideer I suppose. I was curious if the orifice could lead to excessive backpressure behind the restriction? (didn't take a lot of fluid mechanics) ie. should this be setup be like bypassing your heater core but instead of blocking off the heater core circuit completely leaving it open but only w/ a 3/8" supply or similar? Make a small aluminum manifold (like an adjustable fuel pressure regulator) but instead of a regulator just a 3/8's orifice to supply the heater core?? thanks again Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From zxv at istar.ca Sat May 1 20:33:45 1999 From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 16:33:45 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: At 01:29 PM 5/1/99 -0400, you wrote: > >What I do is, epoxy the 5/8" heater hose fitting on the manifold shut, and >then cure it at 200dF. Then drill a 5/16" hole in it. That is enough for >heat and defrost, here in Ohio. so you restricted your supply to your heater to 5/16's internally w/ no other visible mods...I like that:-) what kind of epoxy specifically do you use? If you want really good control over the >heater coolant, use a heater valve off a 87 Buick GN/Ttype, it's vacuum >applied, On, type. don't follow this too well, this is an inline valve in the heater supply line? vacuum applied but what triggers the application of the vaccuum? an electric switch? or do you mean at high vaccuum (low rpm's/throttle) it's open and it closes under WOT? off of manifold vaccuum? That would be slick as well. > If when ya do the cam, on the passenger side of the water pump is a hole >in the water pump/block. Tap that out and put a 1/8 pipe plug in, it. Then >drill a 1/16 or 1/8" hole in it. Also, a 1/8" hole in the thermostat. missed this one, better review my coolant circuit schematics in my Haynes manual, I have hole's in my thermostat , Robert Shaw hiflo unit to accomodate my stewart water pump setup. Or do you mean bleed off a line from the thermo/water neck housing of 1/8" supply for the heater and return it into the water pump? > The above is just what works for me. >Bruce Loving these ideas guys! Can't wait to get my car back from the tranny guru to start on one of them. Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From zxv at istar.ca Sat May 1 20:40:57 1999 From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 16:40:57 -0400 Subject: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Message-ID: At 12:27 PM 5/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >You can do some regrinding to rollers, I did, but it was almost not worth >it. The problem that I was told is that if you do too much you need to have >it re-heatreated, and then it typically gets out of wack in terms of >straightness or so he said. They can take some off and change the profile >a bit, but you need to check with a grinder that can do it to see how much >and actually what it will cost. In the long run, more problems then it's >worth, just get the grind you want and save the exercise. > >Sandy That's one q I'd been wondering on, can they successfully retreat the 'new' outer core to a suitable hardness while maintaining a more ductile inner core. I guess I'm always trying to figure out a way to get my foot in the door and gradually create the more expensive product w/ less money;^) having a hard time phoning them as they're 'only' a 5 day 9-5 company...hmm that's what we are and I like it;^) Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 1 20:59:35 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 16:59:35 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: > >What I do is, epoxy the 5/8" heater hose fitting on the manifold shut, and > >then cure it at 200dF. Then drill a 5/16" hole in it. That is enough for > >heat and defrost, here in Ohio. > so you restricted your supply to your heater to 5/16's internally w/ no > other visible mods...I like that:-) what kind of epoxy specifically do you > use? JB Weld, or about anything gray . > If you want really good control over the > >heater coolant, use a heater valve off a 87 Buick GN/Ttype, it's vacuum > >applied, On, type. > don't follow this too well, this is an inline valve in the heater supply > line? vacuum applied but what triggers the application of the vaccuum? an > electric switch? or do you mean at high vaccuum (low rpm's/throttle) it's > open and it closes under WOT? off of manifold vaccuum? That would be slick > as well. Lots of cars use vacuum motors for defroster, heat etc, just T into that if that's what you have to operate the heater valve. > > If when ya do the cam, on the passenger side of the water pump is a hole > >in the water pump/block. Tap that out and put a 1/8 pipe plug in, it. Then > >drill a 1/16 or 1/8" hole in it. Also, a 1/8" hole in the thermostat. > missed this one, better review my coolant circuit schematics in my Haynes > manual, I have hole's in my thermostat , Robert Shaw hiflo unit to > accomodate my stewart water pump setup. Or do you mean bleed off a line > from the thermo/water neck housing of 1/8" supply for the heater and > return it into the water pump? There is a hole in the block/passenger side behind the water pump (that is about 3/8", that is a water bypass), just tap and plug it, then drill a hole in it to reduce it's size. Period. > > > The above is just what works for me. > >Bruce > > Loving these ideas guys! Can't wait to get my car back from the tranny > guru to start on one of them. > > Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Sat May 1 21:29:42 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 17:29:42 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: At 07:11 AM 5/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Aaron: >> Unfortunately I have yet to see a water injection system that I >>like..... > >Stay tuned. > > also up here there are not enough months when water >>injection is practical. > >Stay tuned. > >(Do not adjust your set!) > >Greg > > H.W. > > > The gears in my head turn slowly due the heavy medication they have me on :-) but I have to imagine that if it's too cold for water injection, certainly you must be breathing in cold air as well, which, coupled to an effective air-to-air intercooler, should help stave off detonation. What am I not understanding here? Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From orin at wolfenet.com Sat May 1 22:06:03 1999 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 18:06:03 -0400 Subject: MC6840 timer specs. Message-ID: > Daniel R. Henriksson wrote: > > > > Hi > > I need the specs. on the MC6840 timer IC, i've searched around on the net with no luck, there must be some datasheet pdf's out there... > > > > (Weber Marelli WD48.08 uses one of those 6840's...) > > BR > > Daniel Henriksson > Daniel, > I searched arround also for a data sheet on this part also with out > much luck. It is a pretty old part. Finally found a older Hitachi data > book and got one from there. I also ordered a set from.... can't For those in the Seattle area, Active Electronics in Bellevue have a Hitachi data book with the HD6840 and variations in it. (You can actually buy a 68x40 there at the moment - can't remember what the x was, B probably!) Orin. From thergen at svn.net Sat May 1 22:06:44 1999 From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 18:06:44 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: I don't know if it's the same one as used on the gn, but take a look at gm part #14044414. It has four ports. Normally, without vacuum applied, is allows coolant to flow through the heater core. With vacuum applied, it bypasses the core and routes the coolant back to the engine. It's usually actuated when the a/c is in the max position. The valve does not seal perfectly, and some coolant does go to the core in closed position. However, I think you could loosen the screw that holds the lever arm onto the rotating part of the valve and just rotate the valve piece 90 degress such that it is "open" (coolant goes through core) under vacuum and "closed" without vacuum. I don't think there was any keying between the lever are and the valve piece that would prevent this (take a look before you buy). Connecting it to manifold vacuum may then make it do what you want. Make sure the valve is installed such that is routes coolant back to the motor when "closed" and doesn't simply cut off the coolant flow. Of course, the restrictors would be cheaper. Tom On Sat, 1 May 1999, Ross Corrigan wrote: > At 01:29 PM 5/1/99 -0400, you wrote: > If you want really good control over the > >heater coolant, use a heater valve off a 87 Buick GN/Ttype, it's vacuum > >applied, On, type. > > don't follow this too well, this is an inline valve in the heater supply > line? vacuum applied but what triggers the application of the vaccuum? an > electric switch? or do you mean at high vaccuum (low rpm's/throttle) it's > open and it closes under WOT? off of manifold vaccuum? That would be slick > as well. > From mwichstr at online.no Sat May 1 22:40:56 1999 From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 18:40:56 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: > If you change the ratio of the transmission enough to get the RPMs down > in the 1000 and under range, you can lower the power output drastically. > The main caveat is to design the cam profile so that the engine will run > efficiently at that speed. You don't need variable displacement or > variable compression ratio to do this. Variable valve timing will do the > trick - and the technology is already fairly commonplace. Offcourse.......you are right , I have wanted to try a 4 stroke with reed valves in the intake and run a camshaft thats good for top end...... Espen From steve.ravet at arm.com Sat May 1 23:34:48 1999 From: steve.ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 19:34:48 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: Ross Corrigan wrote: > > At 01:38 PM 5/1/99 +0100, you wrote: > >The JTR S-10 book shows 2 Everco 5/8" heater hose fittings, one with a > >built-in restriction (3/8"). Part #H2894. They also list a similar GM > >part, #10039163, used on some 4cyl S-10s, to restrict flow. > > > >I am pretty sure there is an in-line restrictor used on some Corvettes, > >but I can't find in in JTR book. > > Thanks for the info so far guys! I have two JTR books (TPI/TBI & ZV8's) > but can't afford to buy every one for fun reading. So the above fitting is > a pipe thread 'union' w/ an inline restrictor orifice? The Everco parts are fittings that screw into your water pump where the heater hose attaches. It's NPT on one end, 5/8" hose barb on the other. Take out the one you have and attach this one. GM part should be similar. The corvette part, if you can find it, goes inline in the hose. Cut the hose, stick it in, put 2 hose clamps on. The S-10 book is a fun read. --steve -- Steve Ravet ARM, INC steve.ravet at arm.com www.arm.com From charlesmorris at erols.com Sun May 2 00:43:20 1999 From: charlesmorris at erols.com (Charles) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 20:43:20 -0400 Subject: John Deere Message-ID: On Sat, 1 May 1999 02:22:31 -0400, you wrote: > PUT na na na PUT na na PUT PUT PUT na na na na... >Sounds like a John Deere 2cyl tractor. Massive flywheel and long >stroke crank made for similar sounds at idle. >Shannen Actually, all my 2-cyl John Deere's go: PUT PUT na na PUT PUT na na PUT PUT na na. Fires at 0 and 180 degrees, then coasts for 540 degrees (hence the massive flywheel). -Charles JD 50 JD 420 ;) From fluffy at snurgle.org Sun May 2 00:53:18 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 20:53:18 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: On Sat, 1 May 1999, Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > >of their cars and a number of early street rods. Not only Ford used > >flathead engines though; I've got one in a '55 Jeep, which is an inline > >6-cylinder. > > I believe that they were used with the inline 4 cylinder Jeep engines, > also. Some of the old 4-cylinder Jeeps were flatheads, some were OHV. As far as I know all modern Jeep engines are OHV or OHC. From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sun May 2 01:03:54 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 21:03:54 -0400 Subject: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Message-ID: On Sat, 1 May 1999, Ross Corrigan wrote: > I'll check out the regrind price from the local grind guru's "Shadbolt" > (any horror stories on them? I've only heard good so far), but at their Havent dealt with them for a while, but they have been around for years and, when I did deal with them they were top notch. From owly at mcn.net Sun May 2 01:32:34 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 21:32:34 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: Espen: That's one I've never heard..... or even considered...... what a thought.... Has someone been doing that.....Wow the possibilities are fantastic..... With such a setup you could use a centrifugal advanced cam to get variable duration and the reed valves would take care of the blowback problem at the low end...... At least a first thought it seems like a brilliant solution.... wish I'd thought of that one..... I'm going to have to think on that a bit more. It takes care of the intake at least. H.W. > >Offcourse.......you are right , I have wanted to try a 4 stroke with reed >valves >in the intake and run a camshaft thats good for top end...... >Espen > > From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 02:06:18 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 22:06:18 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: >Greg: > >Snip....... > >As regards your comments about cam ramp angles...... I was aware of >that issue and don't regard it as relevant at the extreme lash >involved...... 50K+ trouble free miles on this engine in a single >axle semi tractor (391 engine) bear that out. Life expectancy of a >gas engine in this application isn't much over about 80K no matter >what engine you use, and it is still running strong and has been >trouble free. H.W. Then I guess I must be nuts to be building a gas engine for duty in a 27500 GCVW vehicle which is designed make 925 ft lbs from 1600 thru 4000 rpm, continuous duty, anywhere from sea level up to 11K MSL , on ULR fuel, and have a 10000 hour (500K mile) design life! (And have a cruising bsfc below .35 #/bhphr.!) I am sure that the dude with forty years of professional engineering and mechanical experience should listen very carefully to the guy who didn't know that flattys used floating bearings, and rather reliably, on engine design issues! Howard--I think you might have some potential! If you would quit taking up so much bandwidth on this list telling yourself how much you know, I think that you might actually have the capacity to learn something here! Regards, Greg From sganz at wgn.net Sun May 2 02:15:49 1999 From: sganz at wgn.net (Sandy) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 22:15:49 -0400 Subject: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Message-ID: I have a roller that was for a pro-stock, something like .775" lift, just a bit much for my use, not much, but just on the edge for a road race card (BBC). So Had it cut back to the .700 or so (I forget). I decided to back to the nice safe Chevy ZL1 Solid lifter cam, always worked good, so why change. Sandy At 01:38 PM 5/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >At 12:27 PM 5/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >>You can do some regrinding to rollers, I did, but it was almost not worth >>it. The problem that I was told is that if you do too much you need to have >>it re-heatreated, and then it typically gets out of wack in terms of >>straightness or so he said. They can take some off and change the profile >>a bit, but you need to check with a grinder that can do it to see how much >>and actually what it will cost. In the long run, more problems then it's >>worth, just get the grind you want and save the exercise. >> >>Sandy > >That's one q I'd been wondering on, can they successfully retreat the 'new' >outer core to a suitable hardness while maintaining a more ductile inner >core. I guess I'm always trying to figure out a way to get my foot in the >door and gradually create the more expensive product w/ less money;^) >having a hard time phoning them as they're 'only' a 5 day 9-5 company...hmm >that's what we are and I like it;^) > > >Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada > > '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR >Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the >straights > >mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 >http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml >http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a >Z belongs From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 03:06:49 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 23:06:49 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: > >Caterpillar has carried this to extremes and >> >has some diesel engines running ungodly high pressures....I don't know >> >the exact figures. > >On our International it's 2,800-3,200 PSI. But, this is diesel. > >> > I propose changing out the injectors on my vehicle with injectors >> >rated for lower flow, and raising the pressure to compensate. >> >Pressure would be adjusted in "open loop" mode using an exhaust >> >analyzer. It has been said that most injectors are rated at pressures >> >far above what they are operated at. >> > I'm sure this is far from an original idea, and that some of you >> >have done it..... How much difference does it make, and what about >> >pump load at the higher pressures..... how much increase in pressure >> >is required. >> > I'd like to hear about peoples experiences and mishaps doing this >> >> Most injectors will go to 80 maybe 100 PSI differential tops across them >> before they will either stick fully open or stick fully closed. > >Some of the disc type completely lock closed at as low as 90, the pintle >"seem" OK to 110, or so. Again this are reported numbers, but the 90 and >disc was from a reputable source. >Grumpy Some custom (efi, not diesel) injectors are running 200--300 psi delta. Formula car apps. and such. $ 600 or so apiece. Greg > >> =========================================================== >> David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net >> Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 >> Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they >didn't?! >> =========================================================== >> From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 03:10:19 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 23:10:19 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: Could you detail what a *flathead* >>> motor design consists of? >> >>Yeah.. the heads are flat. ;) Nothing in them but the plugs. >> >>During the early part of the century up through the 50's, Ford made >>flathead V8s which were extremely good engines and used in a wide >variety > While on the subject, let's not forget the "F" head--one valve in the head and one in the block! Jeep, for one did it. Regards, Greg From jballeng at vt.edu Sun May 2 03:22:29 1999 From: jballeng at vt.edu (James Ballenger) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 23:22:29 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: CEIJR at aol.com wrote: > James: > Although we haven't done extensive testing yet, we have benched some > injectors at varying pressures and pulse widths. As we suspected before > setting up the bench, the generally accepted formulas are not very accurate. > An increase in pulse from 2 ms to 4 ms does not exactly double flow. Nor does > flow vary directly with the square root of the pressure. The dynamics of > opening and closing are affected differently by pressure for different > injector types and sizes, and obviously flow is affected by the percentage of > the pulse a particular injector takes to open and close. Math is good for > ballpark estimates, and injector selection, but bench testing and then dyno > testing are unfortunately necessary for final tuning. Just out of curiosity, how many points did you take the data at? What I'm getting at is, can a mathematical approximation be made for a particular type or size injector and how much might it vary from another injector type? Was the flow = Sqrt(pressure) close? James Ballenger From mpilkent at ptw.com Sun May 2 03:34:16 1999 From: mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 23:34:16 -0400 Subject: radiators? Message-ID: I know this is a little off topic for the efi list but I'm finishing up my 3.1L V6 engine transplant project into my Opel GT and it's time to think about cooling. Can anyone suggest a decent OEM radiator that would be sufficient for the GM 60 degree V6 and fit in a tight area say about 13 in tall by 16 in wide? Mike From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 03:39:07 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 23:39:07 -0400 Subject: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Message-ID: >You can do some regrinding to rollers, I did, but it was almost not worth >it. The problem that I was told is that if you do too much you need to have >it re-heatreated, and then it typically gets out of wack in terms of >straightness or so he said. They can take some off and change the profile >a bit, but you need to check with a grinder that can do it to see how much >and actually what it will cost. In the long run, more problems then it's >worth, just get the grind you want and save the exercise. > >Sandy Yep--Roller cams are generally made out of 8620 steel--a gear steel, like is used for ring and pinion gears. These cams are case hardened, using copper plating to mask the parts of their surface (everything but the lobes) which do not get the high carbon case (plate the whole thing, then grind the copper off of the lobes). I think the carburized case is only .030 to .050" thick, and you really need most of it for the lobes to live. Re heat-treating such a cam is not at all simple to do properly--you would have to rough grind to new profile, re plate, grind plating off of lobes, recarburize, and then finish grind. (If you want it right.) Pretty likely to be every bit as expensive as a new one. Just get one, new, the way you want. Regards, Greg > >At 10:49 AM 5/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >>well here's the last of my q's that have gone unresolved off other >>resources.... >> >>Local super comp dragster racing team has been selling of some unused new >>stuff in the local penny ads. They have one custom Bruce Crower ground >>roller cam, 650 lift, 300 duration w/ 105 centre left brand new that's too >>conservative for their efforts of late for $100CD. They sold a 2nd one >>same specs to a 'vette owner who had it reground to 575 lift, 112 lobe >centres. >> >>I'll check out the regrind price from the local grind guru's "Shadbolt" >>(any horror stories on them? I've only heard good so far), but at their >>price I should be able to get a reground roller for 30% or so below new and >>to my own custom specs, assuming their's room in this monster for a 214/218 >>at 114 or 115 or similar (or v. open to reccomendations....). I know I'd >>need the Bronze distr. gear for $40CD or so as well. >> >>Just checking this out. For their cost I might just pick it up and decide >>later as I don't think resale 'netwise would be hard to break even. >> >>thanks again >> >>Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada >> >> '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR >>Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the >>straights >> >>mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 >>http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml >>http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a >>Z belongs From jballeng at vt.edu Sun May 2 03:40:41 1999 From: jballeng at vt.edu (James Ballenger) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 23:40:41 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > If when ya do the cam, on the passenger side of the water pump is a hole > in the water pump/block. Tap that out and put a 1/8 pipe plug in, it. Is that the weep hole or something else? Why would you want to plug it? > Then drill a 1/16 or 1/8" hole in it. Also, a 1/8" hole in the thermostat. > The above is just what works for me. I had very good luck with the small (1/8") hole cooling down my overheating escort, when I had it. James Ballenger From rudi at vnet.net Sun May 2 03:43:57 1999 From: rudi at vnet.net (Rudi Machilek) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 23:43:57 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: Oh, and I pressure tested my homemade fuel rails this morning and they leak right through the aluminum tubing. I found that odd. I know aluminum is somewhat porous compared to other metals, but 100psi of air pressure on the end of the fuel rail, submerging it into a litter box full of water resulted in small bubbles forming on the surface of the aluminum. When the pressure is released, the bubbles appear to receed back into the aluminum. Very odd. Just thought you'd all get a kick out of it. Seamed tubing, aluminum, or stainless even, may show bubbles when tested with nitrogen (air). If the bubbles do not flow, no real big deal. Any liquid fuel is a lot bigger molecule than nitrogen. Use seamless tubing to avoid that. For fun, take some 304 or 316 SS tubing (even seamless) and submerge it in Clorox for a week. Now leak test that. Provides a new definition for porous. Use 317 SS (not very available) and almost no effect. Materials studies are a great way to burn a bunch of hours. Rudi Machilek From owly at mcn.net Sun May 2 04:29:35 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 00:29:35 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: William: You wrote: > >Some of the old 4-cylinder Jeeps were flatheads, some were OHV. As far as >I know all modern Jeep engines are OHV or OHC. > On this note, one of the old 4 banger Jeep engines was called an F head and had 4 overhead valves in the head, and 4 flathead type valves in the block.... an interesting design. H.W. From owly at mcn.net Sun May 2 04:29:41 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 00:29:41 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Greg: More power to you if you can accomplish that...... I happen to live in the real world, and deal with old fashioned Ford & GM engines such as the FE series and the Small block & big block GM engines. The comment on life expectancy is based on 20+ years of working on these engines. I'd love to see a gas engine with a 500K life in a farm truck, and a bcsf below .35............. With the technology people are using around here the service life I spoke of is realistic based on real life experience, not labratory environments..... some go over 100K TBO, but not many, and it is a struggle to achieve a bcsf of .50 (impossible with a Holley carb). I've worked on a lot of engines over the years, but apparently not seen the bearing setup you describe...... I presume you are refering to Ford 239 engine when speaking of "flattys", and assume you speak of a single bearing spanning an entire rod journal (2 rods)..... I've owned vehicles with these engines, but never had to work on them. I'll believe the .35 and 500k figure when I see it in real life! -----Original Message----- From: Greg Hermann > >Then I guess I must be nuts to be building a gas engine for duty in a 27500 >GCVW vehicle which is designed make 925 ft lbs from 1600 thru 4000 rpm, >continuous duty, anywhere from sea level up to 11K MSL , on ULR fuel, and >have a 10000 hour (500K mile) design life! (And have a cruising bsfc below >.35 #/bhphr.!) > From cosmic.ray at juno.com Sun May 2 04:36:46 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 00:36:46 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: On Sat, 1 May 1999 21:07:12 -0600 bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) writes: >Some custom (efi, not diesel) injectors are running 200--300 psi delta. >Formula car apps. and such. $ 600 or so apiece. > >Greg Well... so much for the thought of getting four of them and using them to inject liquid propane. Oh well... Ray ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 04:37:03 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 00:37:03 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: >On Sat, 1 May 1999, Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > >> >of their cars and a number of early street rods. Not only Ford used >> >flathead engines though; I've got one in a '55 Jeep, which is an inline >> >6-cylinder. >> >> I believe that they were used with the inline 4 cylinder Jeep engines, >> also. > >Some of the old 4-cylinder Jeeps were flatheads, some were OHV. As far as >I know all modern Jeep engines are OHV or OHC. There was also the not-so modern SOHC hemi Tornado. Quite the motor in its IKA (Argentinian) twelve port headed, triple DCEO Webered trim! (310 HP from 230 cid at only 5200 rpm! Regards, Greg From rudi at vnet.net Sun May 2 04:37:08 1999 From: rudi at vnet.net (Rudi Machilek) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 00:37:08 -0400 Subject: Fuel Pump Check Valve... Message-ID: Swagelok - outlets in any major city. Can specify seal material and are rebuildable. Rudi Machilek From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Sun May 2 04:44:17 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 00:44:17 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: At 06:35 PM 5/3/99 -0700, you wrote: >Espen: > That's one I've never heard..... or even considered...... what a >thought.... Has someone been doing that.....Wow the possibilities are >fantastic..... With such a setup you could use a centrifugal advanced >cam to get variable duration and the reed valves would take care of >the blowback problem at the low end...... At least a first thought >it seems like a brilliant solution.... wish I'd thought of that >one..... I'm going to have to think on that a bit more. It takes care >of the intake at least. H.W. > >> >>Offcourse.......you are right , I have wanted to try a 4 stroke with reed valves >>in the intake and run a camshaft thats good for top end...... >>Espen >> >> > > Honda did this in 1982 in their XR500 four-stroke dirt bike. It was a 500cc (saw that coming) single and the reed valve apparently was used to eliminate low-speed reversion which caused big singles to stumble or stall at very low RPM. A friend of mine owned and rode one but I don't suppose he ever removed the valve to evaluate its effectiveness. Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From jballeng at vt.edu Sun May 2 05:32:49 1999 From: jballeng at vt.edu (James Ballenger) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 01:32:49 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Howard Wilkinson wrote: > My thinking is that if you provide a high enough gear ratio to > accomplish the objective of nearly always being able to throttle with > the transmission, it will at times be > necessary to gear down further than your belt drive transmission > allows for power, just as gravity may overcome your ability to > throttle with load at the other end. H.W. I agree, though I would say a wide enough gear ratio rather than high enough because the range would have to be beyond the scope of todays transmissions to keep the engine constant. James Ballenger From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 2 05:37:31 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 01:37:31 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: It reduces the amount of water bypasing the radiator, and also, helps to pressurize the coolant in the head at higher rpm, reducing localized hot spotting. All, very good things.. The hole in the thermostat is to make sure no air accumulates on the bottom side of it. If ya llook close on some hot rods the first day after running the heater full one for weeks the temp guage rises rather high the first time the thermostat opens. The colder the weather the worse quicker this happens. Bruce > > If when ya do the cam, on the passenger side of the water pump is a hole > > in the water pump/block. Tap that out and put a 1/8 pipe plug in, it. > Is that the weep hole or something else? Why would you want to plug it? > > Then drill a 1/16 or 1/8" hole in it. Also, a 1/8" hole in the thermostat. > > The above is just what works for me. > I had very good luck with the small (1/8") hole cooling down my overheating > escort, when I had it. > James Ballenger From jballeng at vt.edu Sun May 2 05:44:18 1999 From: jballeng at vt.edu (James Ballenger) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 01:44:18 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > CHANGING THE GEARING CHANGES THE ENGINE SPEED! THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT! Shifting gears changes the engine speed. The point is if we didnt need to shift and had a smooth transition through the whole range we could keep the engine rpm constant. When you are in first gear you rev up the engine in a static gear and then shift it to start reving in a new static gear. You could make the gearing dynamic, a cvt, and be able to keep the engine speed constant. > A CVT doesn't change the power (besides the ordinary efficiency losses). > If you attempt to reduce the torque to the drive wheels by changing the > gear ratio, you will either slow down the engine or speed up the vehicle. > > An unthrottled engine running at a specific speed (max torque, for > example) is going to put out a specific amount of power. If this is more > power than is required to maintain the desired cruise speed, the vehicle > will speed up. A cvt wouldnt change the effective torque at the crank, but would modify it at the drive wheels. What happens if you keep your rpm constant and shift from 1st to 4th? You can keep the load on the engine constant and therefore the rpm constant by changing the gear ratio. I suppose a problem occurs when there is little load on the engine, but the could be countered by an insanely low (numerically) gear keeping in mind I am discussing a perfect cvt with infinite range. > If you want to prevent this without throttling - that is, if you want to > maintain the same cruise speed without throttling, you will need to > change the gear ratio. Assuming that you don't speed up, the engine will > HAVE to slow down. You don't have to slow the engine down, you reduce the transmission ratio. James Ballenger From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 05:46:43 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 01:46:43 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: >Greg: > More power to you if you can accomplish that...... I happen to >live in the real world, and deal with old fashioned Ford & GM engines >such as the FE series and the Small block & big block GM engines. The >comment on life expectancy is based on 20+ years of working on these >engines. > I'd love to see a gas engine with a 500K life in a farm truck, and >a bcsf below .35............. With the technology people are using >around here the service life I spoke of is realistic based on real >life experience, not labratory environments..... some go over 100K >TBO, but not many, and it is a struggle to achieve a bcsf of .50 >(impossible with a Holley carb). I've worked on a lot of engines over >the years, but apparently not seen the bearing setup you >describe...... I presume you are refering to Ford 239 engine when >speaking of "flattys", and assume you speak of a single bearing >spanning an entire rod journal (2 rods)..... I've owned vehicles with >these engines, but never had to work on them. > I'll believe the .35 and 500k figure when I see it in real life! > The 500K figure takes a good engine to begin with, and then some high tech tricks and quality parts on top of that. The engine I have started out with has a lengthy track record of running 10K hours on the heads, and 25 K hours on the bottom end, on natural gas, at about 80% load, 2400 rpm on well head irrigation pump applications. And that--with "farmer" maintenance! So--I think, with some careful attention to details, my durability goal is attainable. As for the GM motors--going for durability is a bad joke. (With the exception of the GMC (247/270/305) I- 6, V-6's and V-12's!) The FE and 385 Fords are considerably better than the usual GM's, and a 534 is better still, although a (top oiler) FE needs a lot of hand work on the oil passages in the block in order to live a long happy life. RB Mopars do a LOT better in the durability dept. than either. Too bad Mopar never built a REALLY big block motor!! As to the bsfc--check out some dyno charts for small block f & c engines running IR manifolded Weber carbs. .375 bsfc is common on these engines with this type of an induction setup and good headers--given a competent tuner. In fact--these numbers could just lead a guy to believe that there is something to this business of wanting better fuel atomization and a fuel squirt timed to coincide with high inhale velocity in the port! So--with good efi, .35 should be within reach for light loads. The real challenge will be in seeing how much lower than that can be had!! A competently tuned Holley will get down to about .45 bsfc on a decent motor, in my experience. (Somewhat lower if not into the power valve, and maybe just a little higher at WOT if you know how to set the pvcr correctly.) Regards, Greg From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 2 05:50:45 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 01:50:45 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: I'vr brazed a washer to the end of the heater hose nipple. That seems to provide a good restriction. Shannen steve ravet wrote: > > The JTR S-10 book shows 2 Everco 5/8" heater hose fittings, one with a > built-in restriction (3/8"). Part #H2894. They also list a similar GM > part, #10039163, used on some 4cyl S-10s, to restrict flow. > > I am pretty sure there is an in-line restrictor used on some Corvettes, > but I can't find in in JTR book. > > > > I know this is NC but I"ve exhausted my related Nissan/Datsun list w/ no > > > good info. > > > A few of us have sb chevy V8's and several have experienced heater core > > > problems d/2 higher/greater coolant flows/pressure (I don't know > > > specifically), they've replaced w/ brand new units and halfway thru > > winding > > > out and leaving another NSX (their ride, mine wouldn't do that;^) their > > > heater core will fail again. > > > They only discussed ways to just bypass the heater core which is simple > > but > > > I live in the often rainy pacific nw so need heat occassionally throughout > > > the year and would prefer some sort of pressure reducer mini-manifold but > > > I"m not familiar w/ what hardwar is out their or the simplest way to solve > > > this. I'm not sure if it's simply a matter of too much flow or pressure > > or > > > combo of both that fails them. Mine's still OK but I haven't ran it very > > > hard yet and want to preempt a painful heater core R&R etc. > > > Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada > > -- > Steve Ravet > ARM, INC > steve.ravet at arm.com > www.arm.com From jballeng at vt.edu Sun May 2 05:51:05 1999 From: jballeng at vt.edu (James Ballenger) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 01:51:05 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > It reduces the amount of water bypasing the radiator, and also, helps to > pressurize the coolant in the head at higher rpm, reducing localized hot > spotting. Ok, I just didnt know which hole you were referring to. Would the increase in pressure at that point lead to a lower volume of water passed through the heads? Or would that be counter-acted by the decrease in volume at the bypass? > All, very good things.. The hole in the thermostat is to make sure no air > accumulates on the bottom side of it. If ya llook close on some hot rods > the first day after running the heater full one for weeks the temp guage > rises rather high the first time the thermostat opens. The colder the > weather the worse quicker this happens. I have seen people do this on each side of the thermostat, where did you drill the hole? James Ballenger From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 2 06:11:41 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 02:11:41 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: > Ok, I just didnt know which hole you were referring to. Would the increase in > pressure at that point lead to a lower volume of water passed through the > heads? Or would that be counter-acted by the decrease in volume at the bypass? On the passenger side of the waterpump/block there is a bypass hole about 3/8" in diameter. Just look at a gasket and you'll see it. SBC. > > > All, very good things.. The hole in the thermostat is to make sure no air > > accumulates on the bottom side of it. If ya llook close on some hot rods > > the first day after running the heater full one for weeks the temp guage > > rises rather high the first time the thermostat opens. The colder the > > weather the worse quicker this happens. > > I have seen people do this on each side of the thermostat, where did you drill > the hole? Anywhere exposed to coolant. You just want a way for trapped air to pass the thermostat. Bruce > > James Ballenger > From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 2 06:12:04 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 02:12:04 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:21:36 -0400 (EDT) William T Wilson > writes: > >On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, H Villemure wrote: > > > >> I am more of an ignoramus than most on this list- just a fresh > >> mechanical engineering graduate. Could you detail what a *flathead* > >> motor design consists of? > > > >Yeah.. the heads are flat. ;) Nothing in them but the plugs. > > > >During the early part of the century up through the 50's, Ford made > >flathead V8s which were extremely good engines and used in a wide > variety > >of their cars and a number of early street rods. Not only Ford used > >flathead engines though; I've got one in a '55 Jeep, which is an inline > >6-cylinder. > > I believe that they were used with the inline 4 cylinder Jeep engines, > also. > Packard straight eight was flathead, I think the 6 cyl Jeep engine began life as a Willys Hercules 6, and I think Dodge made a flathead 6 cyl also. Then there's the 348/409 Chebby which has valves in head but no combustion cchamber cast in. Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 2 06:32:34 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 02:32:34 -0400 Subject: John Deere Message-ID: Charles wrote: > > On Sat, 1 May 1999 02:22:31 -0400, you wrote: > > > PUT na na na PUT na na PUT PUT PUT na na na na... > > >Sounds like a John Deere 2cyl tractor. Massive flywheel and long > >stroke crank made for similar sounds at idle. > >Shannen > > Actually, all my 2-cyl John Deere's go: > > PUT PUT na na PUT PUT na na PUT PUT na na. > > Fires at 0 and 180 degrees, then coasts for 540 degrees > (hence the massive flywheel). > > -Charles > JD 50 > JD 420 > ;) That's interesting about the timing. I do remember less consistency in the exhaust sound though, with an occasional POP thrown in to give the dogs something to bark at. Your Deeres are undoubtedly in a better state of tune. Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 2 07:05:14 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 03:05:14 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: James Ballenger wrote: > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > It reduces the amount of water bypasing the radiator, and also, helps to > > pressurize the coolant in the head at higher rpm, reducing localized hot > > spotting. > > Ok, I just didnt know which hole you were referring to. Would the increase in > pressure at that point lead to a lower volume of water passed through the > heads? Or would that be counter-acted by the decrease in volume at the bypass? The bypass allows coolant to return to the inlet side of the pump from the engine block. Reducing the diameter of the hole is akin to plugging a leak in a pressure line. There's more volume and pressure available at the end of the line with the leak plugged. Shannen From goflo at pacbell.net Sun May 2 07:48:22 1999 From: goflo at pacbell.net (goflo at pacbell.net) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 03:48:22 -0400 Subject: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Message-ID: An additional consideration with re-grinding cams is the torsional relaxation caused by removing significant amounts of metal. This changes the phase relationships between lobes. I have in my possession a performance regrind TR6 cam which has a 14 degree phase error between front and rear lobe pair centers. The grind was done by a national rep grinder (and purportedly checked with their cam doctor). This is probably a worst-case deal, as this cam is long and slender, and has ~.125" additional lift ground-in, but much smaller phase errors screw things up noticeably. This too can be avoided by proper regrinding techniques, but once again, by the time you do it right, you coulda bought a new one... I check new ones too :) Regards, Jack From goflo at pacbell.net Sun May 2 07:48:22 1999 From: goflo at pacbell.net (goflo at pacbell.net) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 03:48:22 -0400 Subject: floating flatheads Message-ID: Pardon me for interrupting the spirited repartee, but what the heck is a floating bearing, Greg? I know about inserts and rollers, have poured and bored babbit bushes... Piston pins "float" in rod bushes - Unless they don't. Perhaps you are referring to dip/splash oiling schemes, as opposed to pressure lubrication? Anyway, would appreciate an elaboration. Thanks, Jack From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Sun May 2 08:24:12 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 04:24:12 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Message-ID: At 10:37 PM 5/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > >There was also the not-so modern SOHC hemi Tornado. Quite the motor in its >IKA (Argentinian) twelve port headed, triple DCEO Webered trim! (310 HP >from 230 cid at only 5200 rpm! > >Regards, Greg > > > Hey, cool, I've seen one but know nothing about them. What did they come in? The one I saw was a Jeep military truck, and did NOT have three DCOE Webers!! What would be packing the hot version? Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com Sun May 2 09:53:31 1999 From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 05:53:31 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs,,,this is for Greg H.........I can feel Message-ID: Hi Greg, And I was just starting to like this guy.......truly no offense Howard but you've got alot to learn..........I used to have people call me for advise just so they could tell me they've been doing it for over twenty years and I need to wipe behind my ears and all I could think was...man......twenty years and you still can't get it right????...just a youngsters thought.... -Carl Summers In a message dated 5/1/99 9:33:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owly at mcn.net writes: << Subj: Re: Fuel injection plugs Date: 5/1/99 9:33:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Sender: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Greg: More power to you if you can accomplish that...... I happen to live in the real world, and deal with old fashioned Ford & GM engines such as the FE series and the Small block & big block GM engines. The comment on life expectancy is based on 20+ years of working on these engines. I'd love to see a gas engine with a 500K life in a farm truck, and a bcsf below .35............. With the technology people are using around here the service life I spoke of is realistic based on real life experience, not labratory environments..... some go over 100K TBO, but not many, and it is a struggle to achieve a bcsf of .50 (impossible with a Holley carb). I've worked on a lot of engines over the years, but apparently not seen the bearing setup you describe...... I presume you are refering to Ford 239 engine when speaking of "flattys", and assume you speak of a single bearing spanning an entire rod journal (2 rods)..... I've owned vehicles with these engines, but never had to work on them. I'll believe the .35 and 500k figure when I see it in real life! >> From gbeard1 at nycap.rr.com Sun May 2 12:26:47 1999 From: gbeard1 at nycap.rr.com (Glen Beard) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 08:26:47 -0400 Subject: cam grinds for SC Message-ID: jsg at donet.com wrote: > I'm about to install a Vortech supercharger on my SBC 305 TPI, and > I'm thinking about changing cams too. > > Of course that is of little help, and I would like some idea of what's > going on before contacting manufactures. So, what does make for a good > cam for applications like this? I'm running a CompCam's Extreme blower cam on my 6# Vortech supercharged LT1. It has 218i/230e with a 114 lobe sep. Lifts are .528i/.544e with 1.6:1 roller rockers. The exhaust side, as someone said earlier, needs a larger duration and lift to scavenge the exhaust gasses. Intake isn't as important as it was with the naturally aspirated engine because the blower increases the volumetric efficiency over 100% anyway. The lobe separation at 114 keeps the overlap smaller to prevent blowing your intake air/fuel charge right out the exhaust port. (power and fuel economy takes a dive) Check my page for all the other mods I have done. I'm making 450-500rwhp. (not certain anymore...) -- Glen Beard 95 T/A conv M6 Vortech open y-pipe ;) http://home.nycap.rr.com/gbeard1/TransAm.html From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 14:22:08 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:22:08 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: >You don't have to slow the engine down, you reduce the transmission ratio. James--you are missing the whole point. An unthrottled engine, such as a diesel, at a constant speed is one thing. The biggest loss with a throttled engine is the pumping losses--so at light loads you would need to lug the engine down far enough to get only the output needed at WOT. The control problem is not so simple as holding a constant engine speed, even with a continuously variable tranny. Greg > >James Ballenger From CEIJR at aol.com Sun May 2 14:23:54 1999 From: CEIJR at aol.com (CEIJR at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:23:54 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: James: About 5 data points each on four or five sets of injectors, just enough to show us that the injectors didn't follow predicted lines. Seldom as much as 15% off, but often 10% and never within 2% of predicted. A really good study would take a long time, and not realy do much, at least for our small race engine program, since engine efficiencies vary so much at different rpm's. Charlie Iliff From gderian at oh.verio.com Sun May 2 14:25:35 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:25:35 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: There has been some recent research that indicates the best atomization occurs when the exhaust hits the puddled fuel behind the intake valve when the valve opens. Atomization of fuel as it leaves the injector is not terribly important. Gary Derian > I'd like to propose a simple atomization enhancement strategy. It is > well known that higher pressure results in better atomization in a > fuel injection system.... Caterpillar has carried this to extremes and > has some diesel engines running ungodly high pressures....I don't know > the exact figures. > I propose changing out the injectors on my vehicle with injectors > rated for lower flow, and raising the pressure to compensate. > Pressure would be adjusted in "open loop" mode using an exhaust > analyzer. It has been said that most injectors are rated at pressures > far above what they are operated at. > I'm sure this is far from an original idea, and that some of you > have done it..... How much difference does it make, and what about > pump load at the higher pressures..... how much increase in pressure > is required. > I'd like to hear about peoples experiences and mishaps doing this > ;-) > > H.W. > From gderian at oh.verio.com Sun May 2 14:25:49 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:25:49 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: Any time a device that restricts flow is introduced into the path of air and fuel, power is reduced. A pre-chamber is such a device and such an engine will lose efficiency compared to an open chamber design. As long as an engine runs lean enough to use all the available fuel, leaner is only useful to reduce pumping losses, which does improve economy, but leaner is not the only way to reduce pumping losses. Gary Derian snip > Try some out of box thinking. The propaganda is that Stratified Charge is to > facilitate burning an overall lean mixture thereby increasing milage. snip > , think about using two fuels. The first - thru the prechamber, is an easy to > ignite, relatively fast burning fuel that will generate a nice flame jet and > readily ignite the main chamber. snip From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sun May 2 15:25:30 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:25:30 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Message-ID: On Sun, 2 May 1999, Aaron Willis wrote: > At 10:37 PM 5/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > > > >There was also the not-so modern SOHC hemi Tornado. Quite the motor in its > >IKA (Argentinian) twelve port headed, triple DCEO Webered trim! (310 HP > >from 230 cid at only 5200 rpm! > > > Hey, cool, I've seen one but know nothing about them. What did they come > in? The one I saw was a Jeep military truck, and did NOT have three DCOE > Webers!! What would be packing the hot version? > Jeep used the Continental 6-226 for years. A typical long stroke flathead engine. Jeep even called some models the 6-226. As an elcheapo way of modernizing this ancient engine, they came up with the OHC head. The long, spindly 6-226 connecting rods loved the higher RPM that came with the new head...NOT. Most of these engines [that I saw] were on auto wrecker core piles. The head always looked OK which is more than you could say about the sides of the block. Oh, yeah. Continental has an interesting policy on parts prices. From owly at mcn.net Sun May 2 15:55:14 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:55:14 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: It would seem to me that no matter what you do as far as restriction, as soon as the key is shut off, the increase in cooling system pressure will be equal throughout the system. I find it hard to imagine that the heater core would be subjected to enough increased pressure from the water pump to be an issue. The water pump mainly creates a pressure differential throughout the system so that coolant can circulate..... I suspect that there is very little if any increase relative to atmospheric pressure over what the static system pressure is. A good heater core should be capable of withstanding any internal cooling system pressure likely to be seen in an automobile with a properly functioning pressure cap. H.W. From owly at mcn.net Sun May 2 15:55:18 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:55:18 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Greg: I've personally seen irrigation pump motors run on propane over 10K hrs. This is a considerably different environment than a farm truck. As for Holley carbs, it is unfortunate that pot metal has very low salvage value. I'll just have to take your word for it on the potential of these carbs.... I've never seen it. When you do get one of these working halfway decently, they have a very short life expectancy between overhauls. I've over the years replaced every Holly carb I ever owned with the good old style Autolight / Motorcraft carbs that actually can be made to work correctly and efficiently throughout their operating range. It is unfortunate that the Holly, Motorcraft, and Autolight carb familys used neoprene diaphragms in accelerator pumps and in power valves.... they don't like today's gas at all. Personally I feel that of the 4 bbl carbs available, the plain old Quadrajet would have had the most potential of any of them if they had only made replaceable secondary orfices.... once these are worn there's nothing to be done. I've built a puller and removed them, and I suppose you could manufacture a replacement, but...... Now we've got EFI. I take nearly all horsepower claims with more than a grain of salt...... I also must confess to be a grave doubter of bscf numbers. What I've often run into in the aviation field are people who state the max horsepower, and then state a fuel consumption figure which is obviously taken at 20% or 30% throttle in such a way as to imply that their engine for example puts out 100 hp on 2 gpm when in truth their 100hp engine will not put out a sustained 100hp, nor will it do it on the absurd figure of 2gpm. The engine is in fact putting out about 24 hp when the fuel consumption is measured. I suspect that this nonsense is not confined only to aviation. All bscf figures which exceed .5 by very much automatically fall under suspicion here :-)..... No offense intended. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Greg Hermann >The 500K figure takes a good engine to begin with, and then some high tech >tricks and quality parts on top of that. The engine I have started out with >has a lengthy track record of running 10K hours on the heads, and 25 K >hours on the bottom end, on natural gas, at about 80% load, 2400 rpm on >well head irrigation pump applications. And that--with "farmer" >maintenance! So--I think, with some careful attention to details, my >durability goal is attainable. > >As to the bsfc--check out some dyno charts for small block f & c engines >running IR manifolded Weber carbs. .375 bsfc is common on these engines >with this type of an induction setup and good headers--given a competent >tuner. In fact--these numbers could just lead a guy to believe that there >is something to this business of wanting better fuel atomization and a fuel >squirt timed to coincide with high inhale velocity in the port! So--with >good efi, .35 should be within reach for light loads. The real challenge >will be in seeing how much lower than that can be had!! A competently tuned >Holley will get down to about .45 bsfc on a decent motor, in my experience. >(Somewhat lower if not into the power valve, and maybe just a little higher >at WOT if you know how to set the pvcr correctly.) > >Regards, Greg > > > From owly at mcn.net Sun May 2 15:55:22 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:55:22 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: James: I'm not speaking of keeping the engine constant..... only keeping it a WOT........ The RPM is the throttle and is controlled by the gearing and load. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: James Ballenger To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 12:17 AM Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: > >> My thinking is that if you provide a high enough gear ratio to >> accomplish the objective of nearly always being able to throttle with >> the transmission, it will at times be >> necessary to gear down further than your belt drive transmission >> allows for power, just as gravity may overcome your ability to >> throttle with load at the other end. H.W. > >I agree, though I would say a wide enough gear ratio rather than high >enough because the range would have to be beyond the scope of todays >transmissions to keep the engine constant. > >James Ballenger > > From owly at mcn.net Sun May 2 15:55:27 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:55:27 -0400 Subject: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Message-ID: Jack: I have long suspected that many cams have considerable error in the alignment of lobe centers. I once was asked to change out the third Subaru (EA 81) engine for a fellow who had installed 2 rebuilt engines only to have to return them to the rebuilder due to rattling. This was a major Seattle area rebuilder. When I looked at the engine pior to removal to determine exactly what was happening, I discovered that it was valve noise, but that it couldn't be adjusted out of it. This seemed odd to me, so I took measurements with feeler guages while turning the engine over a little at a time, an discovered a low spot right at the base of the ramp which when proper adjustment was made opposite the lobe yielded a measurement of about .025. Human error seem to be inescapable. Unfortunately with camshafts it is very difficult to verify that they are what they are supposed to be. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: goflo at pacbell.net To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 2:39 AM Subject: Re: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) >An additional consideration with re-grinding cams is the >torsional relaxation caused by removing significant amounts >of metal. This changes the phase relationships between lobes. >I have in my possession a performance regrind TR6 cam which >has a 14 degree phase error between front and rear lobe pair >centers. The grind was done by a national rep grinder (and >purportedly checked with their cam doctor). > >This is probably a worst-case deal, as this cam is long and >slender, and has ~.125" additional lift ground-in, but much >smaller phase errors screw things up noticeably. >This too can be avoided by proper regrinding techniques, but >once again, by the time you do it right, you coulda bought a >new one... > >I check new ones too :) > >Regards, Jack > > > From cosmic.ray at juno.com Sun May 2 16:04:35 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 12:04:35 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: On Sun, 02 May 1999 01:46:50 -0400 James Ballenger writes: > > >Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > >> CHANGING THE GEARING CHANGES THE ENGINE SPEED! THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT! > > Shifting gears changes the engine speed. The point is if we didnt need >to shift and had a smooth transition through the whole range we could keep >the engine rpm constant. When you are in first gear you rev up the engine in >a static gear and then shift it to start reving in a new static gear. You >could make the gearing dynamic, a cvt, and be able to keep the engine speed >constant. > > >> A CVT doesn't change the power (besides the ordinary efficiency losses). >> If you attempt to reduce the torque to the drive wheels by changing the >> gear ratio, you will either slow down the engine or speed up the vehicle. >> >> An unthrottled engine running at a specific speed (max torque, for >> example) is going to put out a specific amount of power. If this is more >> power than is required to maintain the desired cruise speed, the vehicle >> will speed up. > > A cvt wouldnt change the effective torque at the crank, but would modify >it at the drive wheels. What happens if you keep your rpm constant and shift >from 1st to 4th? You can keep the load on the engine constant and therefore >the rpm constant by changing the gear ratio. I suppose a problem occurs >when there is little load on the engine, but the could be countered by an >insanely low (numerically) gear keeping in mind I am discussing a perfect cvt >with infinite range. > >> If you want to prevent this without throttling - that is, if you want to >> maintain the same cruise speed without throttling, you will need to >> change the gear ratio. Assuming that you don't speed up, the engine will >> HAVE to slow down. > >You don't have to slow the engine down, you reduce the transmission ratio. > >James Ballenger > James, Please find a textbook or go to the library and look up the formulas that relate torque, speed, and power. Also, look up the formulas that relate gear ratio, torque multiplication, and speed multiplication. I have memorized them long ago. A lot of what you are saying flys directly in the face of those mathematical relationships. I have tried very patiently to explain how such a system will work, but something just isn't working. After you have memorized those formulas, reread the messages. If you do this, enlightenment will come. Hint: If you run an engine at WOT, it will produce a specific amount of power at a specific speed. If this power is more than necessary to overcome friction, the vehicle WILL speed up. It makes no difference whether you are using a stepped or continuously variable transmission. Adding a control system to a CVT will succeed in keeping the engine speed stady, but the vehicle will STILL speed up. It's simple physics. Look up the formulas and try to apply them. Ray Drouillard, BSEE ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From mpiccioni at attcanada.net Sun May 2 16:12:34 1999 From: mpiccioni at attcanada.net (Marc Piccioni) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 12:12:34 -0400 Subject: thank you Message-ID: Just a short note to say that I am dropping off the list for a while, due to an extended trip. I wish to thank all the members who have answered my newbie EFI questions. Regards /Marc From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sun May 2 16:21:07 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 12:21:07 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: At 10:10 AM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote: >There has been some recent research that indicates the best atomization >occurs when the exhaust hits the puddled fuel behind the intake valve when >the valve opens. Atomization of fuel as it leaves the injector is not >terribly important. Yes, but that's not atomization, that's vaporization... and if it's caused by the exhaust hitting the puddled fuel, that means it's being blown back into the intake runner causing intake dilution and fuel distribution problems. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From goflo at pacbell.net Sun May 2 17:03:14 1999 From: goflo at pacbell.net (goflo at pacbell.net) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:03:14 -0400 Subject: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Message-ID: Not real familiar with Subaru grinds, but involute ramps are common in some designs - Chrysler went through many permutations of such on 2.2/2.5 motors, for instance. Regrinding such profiles with conventional regrinding equipment is possible, but a poor job will result in an engine which runs poorly, for no obvious reason... Regards, Jack Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > Jack: > I have long suspected that many cams have considerable error in > the alignment of lobe centers. > I once was asked to change out the third Subaru (EA 81) engine for > a fellow who had installed 2 rebuilt engines only to have to return > them to the rebuilder due to rattling. This was a major Seattle area > rebuilder. When I looked at the engine pior to removal to determine > exactly what was happening, I discovered that it was valve noise, but > that it couldn't be adjusted out of it. This seemed odd to me, so I > took measurements with feeler guages while turning the engine over a > little at a time, an discovered a low spot right at the base of the > ramp which when proper adjustment was made opposite the lobe yielded a > measurement of about .025. > Human error seem to be inescapable. Unfortunately with camshafts > it is very difficult to verify that they are what they are supposed to > be. H.W. > > -----Original Message----- > From: goflo at pacbell.net > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 2:39 AM > Subject: Re: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) > > >An additional consideration with re-grinding cams is the > >torsional relaxation caused by removing significant amounts > >of metal. This changes the phase relationships between lobes. > >I have in my possession a performance regrind TR6 cam which > >has a 14 degree phase error between front and rear lobe pair > >centers. The grind was done by a national rep grinder (and > >purportedly checked with their cam doctor). > > > >This is probably a worst-case deal, as this cam is long and > >slender, and has ~.125" additional lift ground-in, but much > >smaller phase errors screw things up noticeably. > >This too can be avoided by proper regrinding techniques, but > >once again, by the time you do it right, you coulda bought a > >new one... > > > >I check new ones too :) From zxv at istar.ca Sun May 2 17:43:50 1999 From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:43:50 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: Howard, I don't know any data specific terms to the heater core failures my southern friends experienced (I'm in BC and they're all in the US) but it always went during a WOT dust off of some other hipo car. They replaced initially w/ junkyard units, they failed, then with several Nissan units to find they failed under same circumstances. My inexperienced slant at it is they had a far higher volume/flow than that heater core would normally experience d/2 their rate of acceleration/ hybrid chevy systems/ and most likely the Nissan pumps weren't designed for this flow. If not designed for that flow and given much higher flow than OEM it could create higher pressure than they were designed for given their has to be restrictions in the heater core system leading to this pressure increase (if flow isn't accomodated pressure goes up). I agree w/ you that static pressure as you described shouldn't be a problem as the systems are very similar in design pressures and all related components were in as new condition. These were all low 4 second 0-60 cars setup as sweet daily drivers on NA chevy's. Not fun having a heater core blow during a WOT high speed run that fogs your windshield. Just dont' want that to be me. thanks again for all this feedback, I"m going to gather them up as a FAQ to post on my page eventually for us ZV8's. FWIW, their Datsun heater cores were 20+ yrs old and functioning fine when they first went, no quality problems their. At 08:22 AM 5/4/99 -0700, you wrote: >It would seem to me that no matter what you do as far as restriction, >as soon as the key is shut off, the increase in cooling system >pressure will be equal throughout the system. I find it hard to >imagine that the heater core would be subjected to enough increased >pressure from the water pump to be an issue. The water pump mainly >creates a pressure differential throughout the system so that coolant >can circulate..... I suspect that there is very little if any increase >relative to atmospheric pressure over what the static system pressure >is. A good heater core should be capable of withstanding any internal >cooling system pressure likely to be seen in an automobile with a >properly functioning pressure cap. H.W. > > > Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 2 17:56:07 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:56:07 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Also, be advised many of the low end aromatics boil at 120-150dF depending on the seasonal brew. Bruce > There has been some recent research that indicates the best atomization > occurs when the exhaust hits the puddled fuel behind the intake valve when > the valve opens. Atomization of fuel as it leaves the injector is not > terribly important. > Gary Derian > I'd like to propose a simple atomization enhancement strategy. It is > > well known that higher pressure results in better atomization in a > > fuel injection system.... Caterpillar has carried this to extremes and > > has some diesel engines running ungodly high pressures....I don't know > > the exact figures. > > I propose changing out the injectors on my vehicle with injectors > > rated for lower flow, and raising the pressure to compensate. > > Pressure would be adjusted in "open loop" mode using an exhaust > > analyzer. It has been said that most injectors are rated at pressures > > far above what they are operated at. > > I'm sure this is far from an original idea, and that some of you > > have done it..... How much difference does it make, and what about > > pump load at the higher pressures..... how much increase in pressure > > is required. > > I'd like to hear about peoples experiences and mishaps doing this H.W. From wsherwin at idirect.com Sun May 2 18:01:52 1999 From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:01:52 -0400 Subject: Fuel Pump Check Valve... Message-ID: >Another quick question for you guys... :) > >Anyone know of a source for an inline, high pressure check valve...in either >a 5/16" or 3/8" (dual barbed), or -6AN? Talk to Kinsler Fuel Injection (1-248-362-1145). They have two different style check valves (and fittings for same), which can be used expressly for this purpose . The first is a "flapper" style check, which has the advantages of a very low cracking pressure and good flow potential. The second is of the "spring loaded poppet" style, which offers more positive sealing while imposing a relatively high cracking pressure. If purchasing industrial hydraulic equivalents (Parker, etc...), be mindful of the overall flow potential and pressure drop issues. They can tend to be somewhat constricted internally, despite the appearance of large entry/exit ports. Walt. From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Sun May 2 18:25:35 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:25:35 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: question for the group mind. In my younger days when doing valve jobs for customers cars, I would clean off the carbon that was on top of the cylinders. I used to rotate the engine around and bring the pistons up to tdc and whirl away with a drill bit mounted wire brush. nowadays I wonder if all it did was make the piston top pretty and introduce lots of debris into the engine especially the cylinder walls, creating years of wear in minutes. I'm doing a valve job on my Chevy v8, and I don't want to incur any more wear on the cylinder walls nor do I really want to spin the motor around as I want to drop the distributor right back in where I pulled it. the engine was leaking oil past the guides and has a uniform amount of build up on top of the pistons. should I leave it alone, ? spray some chemical thing on the top and leave it then wipe it all away , then most likely leave some lubricant in the cylinders. or do something else ? thanks, Ted Stowe From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Sun May 2 18:34:03 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:34:03 -0400 Subject: machine shop suggestion needed for drilling side draft intake man Message-ID: hi. I have a cast iron intake for a inline 4 cyl that I would like to have drilled for injectors. it is a challenge to make this work and if I had a manifold to practice on I'd do it myself but I'd rather have someone who knows what they are doing handle it. (cast iron, thin, and the surface area is curved) can anyone give me any suggestions for speed shops , or whatever that could do this ? thanks. Ted. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Sun May 2 18:51:02 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:51:02 -0400 Subject: machine shop suggestion needed for drilling side draft intake Message-ID: > I have a cast iron intake for a inline 4 cyl that I would like to have > drilled for injectors. I just did this on my aluminum intake, and the concepts are the same. http://www.xephic.dynip.com/dodge/383intake.htm > it is a challenge to make this work and if I had a manifold to practice on > I'd do it myself but I'd rather have someone who knows what they are doing > handle it. Since mine was aluminum, it was easier than cast iron to bore using "stubby" drill bits in my drill press. The injector bungs were made out of aluminum tubing, lathed to fit the contour of the injectors, then TIG welded in. Normally I use the www.durafix.com product, however I had an opportunity to learn how to TIG recently, then use my friend's welder to achieve this. However, if you can drill the holes yourself, or pay someone to drill them, you can still braze in the injector bungs yourself. The durafix site if you call them used to have steel brazing rods that work on the same principle, however I didn't see them on the website. Anyway, using a propane torch, you can braze in steel injector bungs and make a nice seal. JB Weld will achieve the same thing. Another option my friend came up with is to thread the injector bungs, thread the milled holes in the intake, and wrap teflon tape (or use locktite) around the threads and screw them in. I hope that helped. --- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology "Leadership in IT" Bridgeport, CT 06606 Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com Voice: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 2 18:51:50 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:51:50 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: Once ya get tit reassembles just use a plant mister, and spray in some water. Not alot, at once just a little for a while. Steam cleans.. Next time might do it first. Bruce > nowadays I wonder if all it did was make the piston top pretty and introduce > lots of debris into the engine especially the cylinder walls, creating years > of wear in minutes. > I'm doing a valve job on my Chevy v8, and I don't want to incur any more > wear on the cylinder walls nor do I really want to spin the motor around as > I want to drop the distributor right back in where I pulled it. > the engine was leaking oil past the guides and has a uniform amount of build > up on top of the pistons. > should I > leave it alone, ? > spray some chemical thing on the top and leave it then wipe it all away , > then most likely leave some lubricant in the cylinders. > or do something else ? thanks, Ted Stowe From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 18:54:42 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:54:42 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Message-ID: >On Sun, 2 May 1999, Aaron Willis wrote: > >> At 10:37 PM 5/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >> > >> >There was also the not-so modern SOHC hemi Tornado. Quite the motor in its >> >IKA (Argentinian) twelve port headed, triple DCEO Webered trim! (310 HP >> >from 230 cid at only 5200 rpm! >> > >> Hey, cool, I've seen one but know nothing about them. What did they come >> in? The one I saw was a Jeep military truck, and did NOT have three DCOE >> Webers!! What would be packing the hot version? >> >Jeep used the Continental 6-226 for years. A typical long stroke flathead >engine. Jeep even called some models the 6-226. As an elcheapo way of >modernizing this ancient engine, they came up with the OHC head. The long, >spindly 6-226 connecting rods loved the higher RPM that came with the new >head...NOT. > >Most of these engines [that I saw] were on auto wrecker core piles. The >head always looked OK which is more than you could say about the sides of >the block. > >Oh, yeah. Continental has an interesting policy on parts prices. All true. The Argentinian Kaiser plant in Cordoba came up with some revised rods along with the twelve port head. The car you would find such a beast in was called a "Torino"--but not at all like a Ford by the same name. It was based on the late sixties Rambler American body tub, but had an outer skin done by Pinin Farina. It also had IRS, and about 8 inches of wheel travel at each corner, and a five speed gear box which was built under license from ZF. The IKA Torinos absolutely dominated closed circuit AND over the road racing in south america for a number of years, and one or two of them even got entered in the endurance race at the Nurbergring one year, but they were not very successful, mostly due to the rather long logistics line from home. Note the rather low engine speed for the peak power on the Torino version of the Tornado engine--this speaks to Jim's comments about the Continental block, even with far better rods installed. Scary to think how much power they could have made with a stronger block and crank and some more revs and 48 mm in place of 45 mm Webers! In this country--the Tornado engines only came with an eight port head (individual exhausts, but two logged intakes), and obviously without the good rods. It came in early sixties Gladiator pick-ups and Wagoneers. And, as one might expect for a hemi head with a short duration cam with aggressive valve lift rates, it got rather good mileage--about 17.5 mpg, highway--- in a well tuned 4x4 Gladiator. But--no, it was not a high revver. Regards, Greg From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 19:08:53 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 15:08:53 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: >It would seem to me that no matter what you do as far as restriction, >as soon as the key is shut off, the increase in cooling system >pressure will be equal throughout the system. I find it hard to >imagine that the heater core would be subjected to enough increased >pressure from the water pump to be an issue. The water pump mainly >creates a pressure differential throughout the system so that coolant >can circulate..... I suspect that there is very little if any increase >relative to atmospheric pressure over what the static system pressure >is. A good heater core should be capable of withstanding any internal >cooling system pressure likely to be seen in an automobile with a >properly functioning pressure cap. H.W. Your suspicions and imaginings are incorrect on this one, Howard. While the heater core may or may not take the pressure OK, the water pump makes a substantial amount of pressure head inside the water jackets. And this additional head is VERY important to preventing localized boiling (beyond nucleate boiling) in the hottest parts of the heads. The head is created by the restriction to coolant flow which is provided by the thermostat, and is why a thermostat should not be removed (or, if it is, should be replaced by something which restricts coolant flow to the same extent as the stat did). The pressure head which the water pump generates is proportional to the square of the pump rpm, and at , say, 5000 pump rpm, for a pump with an impeller the size of most water pumps, it would not be unreasonable to expect to see 25 or 30 psi of pressure in the water jackets in ADDITION the pressure from the radiator cap!! And if the thermostat restriction is removed, the water pump will cavitate due to not having enough NPSH at the resulting (higher flow at less developed head) point on its curve for that particular impeller speed! Regads, Greg From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 19:21:33 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 15:21:33 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: >At 10:10 AM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote: >>There has been some recent research that indicates the best atomization >>occurs when the exhaust hits the puddled fuel behind the intake valve when >>the valve opens. Atomization of fuel as it leaves the injector is not >>terribly important. > >Yes, but that's not atomization, that's vaporization... and if it's caused >by the exhaust hitting the puddled fuel, that means it's being blown back >into the intake runner causing intake dilution and fuel distribution problems. BINGO, Dave!! Not to mention that this approach to fuel vaporization is thermodynamically far less efficient than ATOMIZATION! Using the latent heat of the fuel to cool the inlet valve, only so the valve can rob heat from the next power stroke to heat back up is a thermal inefficiency. Letting the latent heat of well atomized fuel make the compression process in the cylinder more nearly isothermal than adiabatic increases net power output by reducing the amount of work which the engine must do during the compression stroke! Good vaporization of fuel is important to emissions--but it can happen either way. Good atomization of fuel is important only to power and efficiency, so it has been somewhat shortchanged in the research funding. Regards, Greg From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 19:34:14 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 15:34:14 -0400 Subject: floating flatheads Message-ID: >Pardon me for interrupting the spirited repartee, but what >the heck is a floating bearing, Greg? I know about inserts >and rollers, have poured and bored babbit bushes... >Piston pins "float" in rod bushes - Unless they don't. >Perhaps you are referring to dip/splash oiling schemes, as >opposed to pressure lubrication? >Anyway, would appreciate an elaboration. > >Thanks, Jack There is clearance between the bearing insert and the housing, as well as between the bearing insert and its journal. Sometimes, such a bearing is pinned to the housing, as in turbochargers (if you have a copy of the McInnes book, there is a write up on them, as applied to turbos, in there). I believe that for a while, like in the late forties, floating rod bearing were the supposedly "hot set-up" to have in a lakester flatty. Didn't mean to be quite so sharp with the guy, but I really do HATE to see so much mis-info coming from one source, all at once, with such an authoritative tone! After all--there do seem to be some on the list who really want to learn, and that kind of stuff does not help them at all! As far as I am concerned--twenty years of maintaining farm equipment in the way that most of that poor stuff gets taken care of is twenty years of doing things wrong that the guy needs to un-learn! Regards, Greg From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sun May 2 19:35:17 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 15:35:17 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: At 01:21 PM 5/2/99 -0600, you wrote: > >BINGO, Dave!! > >Not to mention that this approach to fuel vaporization is thermodynamically >far less efficient than ATOMIZATION! Using the latent heat of the fuel to >cool the inlet valve, only so the valve can rob heat from the next power >stroke to heat back up is a thermal inefficiency. Letting the latent heat >of well atomized fuel make the compression process in the cylinder more >nearly isothermal than adiabatic increases net power output by reducing the >amount of work which the engine must do during the compression stroke! I would presume thebest of both worlds for efficiency and power would be to have injectors large enough to be able to inject all the fuel needed for each stroke while the valve was open... Atomized fuel enters the combustion chamber with the air. Problems come at low RPM/load situations where the injector is now too large to flow small quantities efficiently... How about 2 injectors per cyl, say a 10lb/hr and a 60 lb/hr, the 10 is used for idle, the larger is slowly phased in as RPM/load increases to keep the total injection squirt during the valve open time. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 2 19:57:19 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 15:57:19 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: >Howard, I don't know any data specific terms to the heater core failures my >southern friends experienced (I'm in BC and they're all in the US) but it >always went during a WOT dust off of some other hipo car. They replaced >initially w/ junkyard units, they failed, then with several Nissan units to >find they failed under same circumstances. My inexperienced slant at it is >they had a far higher volume/flow than that heater core would normally >experience d/2 their rate of acceleration/ hybrid chevy systems/ and most >likely the Nissan pumps weren't designed for this flow. If not designed >for that flow and given much higher flow than OEM it could create higher >pressure than they were designed for given their has to be restrictions in >the heater core system leading to this pressure increase (if flow isn't >accomodated pressure goes up). I agree w/ you that static pressure as you >described shouldn't be a problem as the systems are very similar in design >pressures and all related components were in as new condition. > Your evaluation is spot on, Ross! If the higher pump head pressure from the larger, faster turning water pump did not get the cores immediately, the pitting corrosion from the higher flow velocities than intended would get them before too long. Regards, Greg From chris at maximum-bhp.u-net.com Sun May 2 20:19:23 1999 From: chris at maximum-bhp.u-net.com (Chris Wilson) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 16:19:23 -0400 Subject: Crank position sensor relocation query. Message-ID: I am running a Honda Mugen Formula 3 single seater race engine,in a chassis that is much later than the power unit.I have an interference problem,with the exotically materialed and manufactured primary pipes fouling an adaptor on the back of the exhaust cam,that acts as a crank position sensor.The management system is Mugens own,and this adaptor is a coil,with a ferrite core.Across the end of the core rotates a drum,with an iron segment moulded into it.The whole assembly is mounted in a die cast casing,that bolts to the back of the exhaust cam housing.The primaries foul this casing,quite severely.I either remake the primaries,which are in titanium,and a work of art,or I move the crank position sensor.The inlet cam has the distributor,with a toothed wheel sender also within it,to give RPM readings,bolted to the back of the cam housing,opposite the position sender.Where does the team suggest I could get a crank position signal from? Any neat ideas? Thanks. -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson. http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com From chris at formula3.demon.co.uk Sun May 2 20:37:14 1999 From: chris at formula3.demon.co.uk (Chris Wilson) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 16:37:14 -0400 Subject: Toyota management mod limitations?? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: WILMAN To: Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 1:38 AM Subject: Re: Toyota management mod limitations?? > Try gems at gems.co.uk. They do an " Implant" for Toyota ECU's which then > allow them to be programmable. OK,thanks,they are a UK firm,so handy for us.We will check this out.Appreciative of the information,cheers. From fluffy at snurgle.org Sun May 2 21:19:44 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:19:44 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: On Sun, 2 May 1999, Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > In my younger days when doing valve jobs for customers cars, I would clean > off the carbon that was on top of the cylinders. I used to rotate the engine > around and bring the pistons up to tdc and whirl away with a drill bit > mounted wire brush. The problem with this is that it will drop little bits of carbon goop down between the piston and the cylinder, where they will make things sad. This is not the end of the world, but it doesn't do it any good, either. Cleaning the carbon deposits off of the piston isn't really all that important because they just come right back when the engine runs the next time. Last time I had the head off an engine, I used a little scraper tool to scoop all the gunk onto the center of the piston, where I can vacuum it up. No gunk in the cylinder. > should I leave it alone, ? You may as well, unless there's a whole bunch of it. From wsherwin at idirect.com Sun May 2 21:55:20 1999 From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:55:20 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: >The pressure head which the water pump generates is proportional to the >square of the pump rpm, and at , say, 5000 pump rpm, for a pump with an >impeller the size of most water pumps, it would not be unreasonable to >expect to see 25 or 30 psi of pressure in the water jackets in ADDITION the >pressure from the radiator cap!! And if the thermostat restriction is >removed, the water pump will cavitate due to not having enough NPSH at the >resulting (higher flow at less developed head) point on its curve for that >particular impeller speed! > >Regads, Greg > Greg, what you say here is quite correct. A couple of years ago, we flogged a near stock BBC (with stock serpentine water pump) for several days on a well equipped dyno. One of the measured parameters was the post pump water jacket pressure. We were quite surprised to observe approximately 55psig of "head" (from a 15psig baseline) at 5000 engine RPM. Post examination of the data revealed the expected speed/pressure curve of a generic centrifugal pump. Walt. From wsherwin at idirect.com Sun May 2 22:16:51 1999 From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 18:16:51 -0400 Subject: Need Fuel Injector Data Message-ID: Take a peek at Saturn injector 17109717, from the 1.9Litre engine, or 17109718 from same. They are both low impedance, and around 17 #/Hr @ 44 psig. Good Luck! Walt. >A friend of mine and I are working on an unusual project. We are adapting a >'93 Saturn ECM and two DIS modules to run a Continental O-200 aircraft >engine. The engine is 200 C.I. (3.3 L) 4 cylinder dual plug and should make >about 120 HP at about 2800 RPM. > From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 2 23:05:44 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:05:44 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: Ross Corrigan wrote: > thanks again for all this feedback, I"m going to gather them up as a FAQ to > post on my page eventually for us ZV8's. > > FWIW, their Datsun heater cores were 20+ yrs old and functioning fine when > they first went, no quality problems their. Ross, what kind of car is this? I ran SB Chevy (several, actually) in a 240Z and never experienced a problem. WOT dustoff?? When do you need WOT?? ; ) Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 2 23:11:49 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:11:49 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > should I > > spray some chemical thing on the top and leave it then wipe it all away , > then most likely leave some lubricant in the cylinders. > > thanks, Ted Stowe For about 8 bucks, you can get GM Top Engine Cleaner in a can. Pour some into each cylinder and allow it to sit overnight, then most of the carbon will wipe off. Avoid getting it on your hands, don't run the car without changing the oil after the treatment. Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 2 23:33:25 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:33:25 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: William T Wilson wrote: > > On Sun, 2 May 1999, Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > > In my younger days when doing valve jobs for customers cars, I would clean > > off the carbon that was on top of the cylinders. I used to rotate the engine > > around and bring the pistons up to tdc and whirl away with a drill bit > > mounted wire brush. > > > Cleaning the carbon deposits off of the piston isn't really all that > important because they just come right back when the engine runs the next > time. Sounds like a tire shop I went to once. "No need to clean the mud off the wheel before we balance it. It just gets muddy again anyway." Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 2 23:47:39 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:47:39 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > Greg: > I've personally seen irrigation pump motors run on propane over > 10K hrs. This is a considerably different environment than a farm > truck. > It is unfortunate that the Holly, > Motorcraft, and Autolight carb familys used neoprene diaphragms in > accelerator pumps and in power valves.... they don't like today's gas > at all. There's a simple modification for Holley carbs that prevents power valve damage due to backfire, and the pump diaphragms can be replaced without complete o'haul. > Personally I feel that of the 4 bbl carbs available, the plain old > Quadrajet would have had the most potential of any of them if they had > only made replaceable secondary orfices.... once these are worn > there's nothing to be done. Around 1985 a company called "The Carburetor Shop" offered a kit designed to replace the secondary metering jets. Generally I see worn rods, not jets. Most common seems to be a "ring" worn around the rod caused by the rods "rattling" in the stainless plates that make up the jets. > I've built a puller and removed them, and Puller? I have a drill bit that I've ground to cut the aluminum carb away from the jet, then a small pick easily pulls the exposed jet. > I suppose you could manufacture a replacement, I pull the replacement jet from an unused Q jet. I buy the carbs cheap and strip them for parts. Shannen From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sun May 2 23:47:43 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:47:43 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Message-ID: On Sun, 2 May 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > > > >Oh, yeah. Continental has an interesting policy on parts prices. > > All true. The Argentinian Kaiser plant in Cordoba came up with some revised > rods along with the twelve port head. The car you would find such a beast > in was called a "Torino"--but not at all like a Ford by the same name. It > was based on the late sixties Rambler American body tub, but had an outer > skin done by Pinin Farina. It also had IRS, and about 8 inches of wheel > travel at each corner, and a five speed gear box which was built under > license from ZF. > > Note the rather low engine speed for the peak power on the Torino version > of the Tornado engine--this speaks to Jim's comments about the Continental > block, even with far better rods installed. Scary to think how much power > they could have made with a stronger block and crank and some more revs and > 48 mm in place of 45 mm Webers! > Continental also mfrd an inline 6 cylinder, pushrod, 12 port 7 main industrial engine. The only one I ever saw was in a Trackmobile. Delivered new with the governor not working. It never popped, and it wasnt for lack of trying. Could make it sound just like a good, strong SBC going thru the traps...If they had combined short block and cylinder heads... From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 3 00:06:24 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 20:06:24 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Your saying you've had the secondary metering rod orfices go bad?. By how much?.... Never saw any worn enough that that worried me. Finding the optimum opending for the secondary air valve was the PITA for me. Well right after digging up all the metering rod hangers, and many needles. Then I built a jig for blueprinting the hangers.. Once ya got the idle jet, idle channel restrictor right then ya could play with the primary idle bypasses. Then you just had to diddle with the primary jets, and dancing needles (ecm content). Had one on a LG4 auto that ran 15.0s, and got 30+mph on the freeway. Same metering also ran 13's on a 355 (crossfire manifold sorta) Grumpy > > Quadrajet would have had the most potential of any of them if they had > > only made replaceable secondary orfices.... once these are worn > > there's nothing to be done. > Around 1985 a company called "The Carburetor Shop" offered a kit > designed to replace the secondary metering jets. Generally I see worn > rods, not jets. Most common seems to be a "ring" worn around the rod > caused by the rods "rattling" in the stainless plates that make up the > jets. > > I've built a puller and removed them, and > Puller? I have a drill bit that I've ground to cut the aluminum carb > away from the jet, then a small pick easily pulls the exposed jet. > > I suppose you could manufacture a replacement, > I pull the replacement jet from an unused Q jet. I buy the carbs > cheap and strip them for parts. > Shannen From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Mon May 3 01:35:44 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 21:35:44 -0400 Subject: Dodge Intake Construction Message-ID: Not too exciting, but I started building the plenum for my Dodge 383 stroker EFI conversion. So far, I have a plenum floor :) http://xephic.dynip.com/dodge/dodge.html --- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology "Leadership in IT" Bridgeport, CT 06606 Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com Voice: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 3 02:26:29 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:26:29 -0400 Subject: High economy, was Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: -> Van Dorne has built a CVT for the Williams F1 car that could handle -> 700 hp. Probably the same CVT. 70hp for 100,000 miles in a Subaru, or 700hp for 100 miles in a Williams. Van Doorne has used several belt-type systems over the years, but they all have sharp limits as to the amount of torque they can handle before the wear rate goes through the roof. Lear pumped a lot of money into 'traction drive' (torus and roller) variants during the 1960s, and even got a few of them installed in buses for testing. They did well, but in order to keep wear under control the elements became huge - the reason they tested them in buses was because they wouldn't *fit* in cars. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 3 02:26:52 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:26:52 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: -> Floating rod bearings too? Hell, no! This is a late-model motor - 1953. Uses ordinary snap-in shell bearings. Even has a distributor on a stick instead of the crab distributor driven off the cam snout. From gmoore at island.net Mon May 3 02:57:03 1999 From: gmoore at island.net (Greg Moore) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:57:03 -0400 Subject: TPS Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BE94D5.FD2D4560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I just stumbled on this list. I've got a question I'm hoping someone can = answer for me. I'm converting a '59 Mercedes Unimog to multiport EFI. I've got a Ford = throttle position sensor (part # E45F-9B989 AA 4M01C) but the lugs seem = to be 90 degrees out of wack. Is there a similar sensor that would work = for me? The air door is a 65 mm Edelbrock/BBK unit intended for a '95 = Mustang V8 if that helps. Thanks everyone. Cheers, Greg "20th century 'mog" '59 Unimog ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BE94D5.FD2D4560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
 
I just stumbled on this list. I've got a question = I'm hoping=20 someone can answer for me.
 
I'm converting a '59 Mercedes Unimog to multiport = EFI. I've=20 got a Ford throttle position sensor (part # E45F-9B989 AA 4M01C) but the = lugs=20 seem to be 90 degrees out of wack. Is there a similar sensor that would = work for=20 me? The air door is a 65 mm Edelbrock/BBK unit intended for a '95 = Mustang V8 if=20 that helps.
 
Thanks everyone.
 
Cheers, Greg  "20th century 'mog"
'59 Unimog
------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BE94D5.FD2D4560-- From mharding at qonline.com.au Mon May 3 03:06:45 1999 From: mharding at qonline.com.au (Matthew Harding) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 23:06:45 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: >off the carbon that was on top of the cylinders. I used to rotate the engine >around and bring the pistons up to tdc and whirl away with a drill bit >mounted wire brush. > > >nowadays I wonder if all it did was make the piston top pretty and introduce >lots of debris into the engine especially the cylinder walls, creating years >of wear in minutes. Like you i've been known to do the same thing with the drill bit mounted wire brush whilst the head is off (on my own motors), just filling in time i guess and more than anything making it look shmick for any one who comes by :P when I do I simply make sure that I have someone else holding the compressed air across the top of the piston at the same time, and rags down the adjacent cylinders. generally most of the debris gets blown away, and any that is down the gap can be blown out with the compressed air. When you rotate that piston to the bottom again, just carefully wipe up the bore with a clean rag, that will get any lingering debris. If you are really concerned, just turn the engine over by hand a couple more times, and look for any more being dropped by the piston as it goes down the bore. just my thoughts :) One thing i do think it can help with is a high compression engine pinging, because (for a short time) there is no carbon deposits to stay hot enough to ignite the fuel/air. again just my thoughts, and some observation... cya From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 3 03:20:45 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 23:20:45 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Your saying you've had the secondary metering rod orfices go bad?. > By how much?.... > Never saw any worn enough that that worried me. > Finding the optimum opending for the secondary air valve was the PITA for > me. > Well right after digging up all the metering rod hangers, and many needles. > Then I built a jig for blueprinting the hangers.. > Once ya got the idle jet, idle channel restrictor right then ya could play > with the primary idle bypasses. Then you just had to diddle with the primary > jets, and dancing needles (ecm content). > Had one on a LG4 auto that ran 15.0s, and got 30+mph on the freeway. > Same metering also ran 13's on a 355 (crossfire manifold sorta) > Grumpy The electronic Q's just aren't that common. I've only worked on a handful of them. I was told by a GM Training Center guy "just throw it out and get a Holley" when I was in college. Wish I'd known ya then, I needed something to come back with. Secondary jets... I've changed the later style to the early ones. The early ones look more like a cup than a stamped orifice. The height is a little different, I was playing around. In the beginning I had some silly notion of using replaceable jets. I've mostly seen the rods wear enough to be a problem, but I've pulled a couple orifices that were worn to an oval in a 1 ton field service truck. Lotsa fuel at WOT, looked like a diesel. Good thing I saved the drill bit. On my own stuff, I try to find a carb without the idle air bushings. These also usually have larger holes for the mixture screws. Try to simplify things a bit. Ever run into a hanger with one arm at a very different height? I've gotten a few, don't know what caused it. Each one was causing a pop from the secondary, got to be the first thing I looked for. 30 mpg, that's great. I thought I was doing well to get 18 from the 455 in the Monte. Neat thing, was 18 with 2.26 rear gear, still 18 with 3.08 gear. Runs out of cam with 3.08 though. I heard about your "carbfire" manifold. I never tried that with mine, didn't know I could remove the extra casting. Still love the crossfire setup, way underrated. Shannen From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 3 03:50:34 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 23:50:34 -0400 Subject: Transplant - Bearings Message-ID: -> Please explain the term "floating rod bearings"......... I've -> never heard it before...... The only "floating rod bearings" I've -> experienced are those which spin between the bearing and the -> rod.......... Definitely a bad deal.... forshadows doom! Back in the 1930s many engines used bearings that were cast directly onto the rod or block surfaces and machined or scraped to size. The bearing material was an alloy called Babbitt, (there were actually a number of different Babbitt alloys) and the resulting bearings were referred to as "babbitt bearings." Cast babbitt bearings were relatively time-consuming to make, so as labor prices went up they became less cost-effective. It was also found that thinner bearings could hold up to load better than thick bearings. Many engines began using "shell" or "insert" bearings - thin strips of steel with a thin layer of bearing material - Babbitt alloy, lead/silver, etc. - cast or laminated in place. These bearings were normally a tight fit in their housings; in fact, the OD of the bearing was usually slightly *larger* than the housing; the difference is called "crush" and is what keeps the bearing from spinning in the housing. These types of bearings are in common use today. Ford went to an insert bearing on the flathead, but the rod bearings were strange - they were babbitted on both sides, and floated in between the crankshaft and rod. Later they went to conventional interference fit bearings. The hot-rodders of the day claimed there was little difference between the floating and interference bearings. I've found no detailed technical information on why Ford chose to do the floating bearings instead of interference bearings, or why they changed. I suspect it had something to do with cost, as the flathead V8 was rigorously designed down to a price. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 3 03:50:50 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 23:50:50 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: -> cam to get variable duration and the reed valves would take care of -> the blowback problem at the low end...... At least a first thought Alfa Romeo built some engines like that 20 years ago. There were also some stationary engines using reed valves at the beginning of the century. The Alfa setup let them run a long duration cam without confusing the carburetor with reversion pulses or contaminating one cylinder's intake charge with another's exhaust coming through on overlap. It looked like a fine idea to me, and I have no idea why they dropped it. From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 3 03:50:59 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 23:50:59 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: -> cyl also. Then there's the 348/409 Chebby which has valves in head -> but no combustion cchamber cast in. Just like the 430/462 Ford, or the Mercedes 300, or... From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 3 03:51:05 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 23:51:05 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: -> There has been some recent research that indicates the best -> atomization occurs when the exhaust hits the puddled fuel behind the -> intake valve when the valve opens. 1) you're talking about a pretty small amount of fuel here, which is supposed to be in vaporized or fine droplet form anyway 2) that valve is hopping up and down pretty-damned-quick, even at idle. Not much chance for puddling there. 3) there's one hell of a lot of turbulence in that intake port, both from the valve's movement on and off the seat and from charge reversion during overlap, not to mention turbulence from the other cylinders on a common manifold. On an alcohol-burning Chevy in a sprint car, bogged down coming out of a corner, I could believe in fuel puddling on the back of the intake valve. In almost anything else, it's "show me" time. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 3 03:51:08 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 23:51:08 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: -> Any time a device that restricts flow is introduced into the path of -> air and fuel, power is reduced. A pre-chamber is such a device and -> such an engine will lose efficiency compared to an open chamber -> design. A prechamber doesn't necessarily have to restrict flow. It can be *in addition* to normal flow, as was used in various Japanese automobile engines a few years ago. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From owly at mcn.net Mon May 3 04:56:29 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 00:56:29 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: Bruce: The "spreadbore" (I believe that's the term) design of the Quadrajet results in the secondarys contributing to normal driving far more than on carbs with equal primarys & secondaries. As a result a little bit of wear in these rods or orfices makes a big difference in performance. I could show you quite a number of Quadrajet carbs with visibly egged out secondary orfices.... These are 100k+ carbs, and I just throw them away and find a good one. Unfortunately I've found that the factory "rebuilts" often have this same problem. Perhaps as I deal more in pickups and trucks than in cars, the is some difference in the operating environment which accounts for the problem...... Who knows. I just know that if I have one that doesn't work, it nearly always turns out to have egged secondary jets. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs > >Your saying you've had the secondary metering rod orfices go bad?. >By how much?.... >Never saw any worn enough that that worried me. >Finding the optimum opending for the secondary air valve was the PITA for >me. >Well right after digging up all the metering rod hangers, and many needles. >Then I built a jig for blueprinting the hangers.. >Once ya got the idle jet, idle channel restrictor right then ya could play >with the primary idle bypasses. Then you just had to diddle with the primary >jets, and dancing needles (ecm content). > Had one on a LG4 auto that ran 15.0s, and got 30+mph on the freeway. >Same metering also ran 13's on a 355 (crossfire manifold sorta) >Grumpy > > >> > Quadrajet would have had the most potential of any of them if they had >> > only made replaceable secondary orfices.... once these are worn >> > there's nothing to be done. >> Around 1985 a company called "The Carburetor Shop" offered a kit >> designed to replace the secondary metering jets. Generally I see worn >> rods, not jets. Most common seems to be a "ring" worn around the rod >> caused by the rods "rattling" in the stainless plates that make up the >> jets. >> > I've built a puller and removed them, and >> Puller? I have a drill bit that I've ground to cut the aluminum carb >> away from the jet, then a small pick easily pulls the exposed jet. >> > I suppose you could manufacture a replacement, >> I pull the replacement jet from an unused Q jet. I buy the carbs >> cheap and strip them for parts. >> Shannen > > > From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Mon May 3 05:05:47 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 01:05:47 -0400 Subject: Transplant - Bearings Message-ID: On Sun, 2 May 1999, Dave Williams wrote: > > -> Please explain the term "floating rod bearings"......... I've > -> never heard it before...... The only "floating rod bearings" I've > -> experienced are those which spin between the bearing and the > -> rod.......... Definitely a bad deal.... forshadows doom! > > Ford went to an insert bearing on the flathead, but the rod bearings > were strange - they were babbitted on both sides, and floated in between > the crankshaft and rod. Later they went to conventional interference > fit bearings. The hot-rodders of the day claimed there was little > difference between the floating and interference bearings. I've found > no detailed technical information on why Ford chose to do the floating > bearings instead of interference bearings, or why they changed. I > suspect it had something to do with cost, as the flathead V8 was > rigorously designed down to a price. > I have run across a set of used boxed rods for a 354 Chrysler hemi that were modified to use floating rod bearings. These were used in a fueler. Ford also used this style of rod bearing in the GAA and GAF V8 tank engines. Whether they were also used in the original V-12 A/C engine I don't know. Maybe this is like the offset versus fork-and-blade con rod designs, where costs seemed to dictate the winner but there does not seem to be any documentation on tests etc. From zxv at istar.ca Mon May 3 06:17:44 1999 From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 02:17:44 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: At 06:56 PM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote: >Ross Corrigan wrote: > >> thanks again for all this feedback, I"m going to gather them up as a FAQ to >> post on my page eventually for us ZV8's. >> >> FWIW, their Datsun heater cores were 20+ yrs old and functioning fine when >> they first went, no quality problems their. Shannen wrote: >Ross, what kind of car is this? Mine's a 280ZX, theirs were a 240Z and a 280ZX. I ran SB Chevy (several, actually) in >a 240Z and never experienced a problem. WOT dustoff?? When do you >need WOT?? ; ) hard to tag 10's or 11's w/o WOT they found;^) I only need it long enough to prove to the passenger they can't grab that C note taped to the dash;^) Funny you say that, a camaro guy was talking about testing a certain tranny in 4th or similar at WOT and the datsun V8 guy said he couldn't stay at WOT long enought to test much of anything 'cept his nerves;^) {wide open throttle till you see God and then lift} Ross (dreaming again ) C Any pics or writeups of your Z8's?? I'm starting a collection of web info to supplement a friends webpage http://www.whit.org:80/jcaudle/ I always enjoy reading and viewing others rides to see what they've done etc, better than any car mags IMO;^) Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Mon May 3 06:22:16 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 02:22:16 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Its not. The back side of the intake valve under medium load can exceed 600F ( Vizard ) and this is one of the reasons that simply ceramic coating the face of the intake can drop the charge temperature 60 degrees or more. It has long been used in constant flow systems like the hilborn to greatly aid accelerations. The hot valve simply transfers its heat to the fuel. Member that the intake valve has just been exposed to 360 degrees of intense heat during combustion and exhaust by simply being in the chamber. Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 12:21:01 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: atomization enhancement At 10:10 AM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote: >There has been some recent research that indicates the best atomization >occurs when the exhaust hits the puddled fuel behind the intake valve when >the valve opens. Atomization of fuel as it leaves the injector is not >terribly important. Yes, but that's not atomization, that's vaporization... and if it's caused by the exhaust hitting the puddled fuel, that means it's being blown back into the intake runner causing intake dilution and fuel distribution problems. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 3 11:21:45 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 07:21:45 -0400 Subject: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Message-ID: Ross Corrigan wrote: > > At 06:56 PM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Ross Corrigan wrote: > > > > Any pics or writeups of your Z8's?? I'm starting a collection of web info > to supplement a friends webpage Maybe I've got some entertaining stories, but that's about it. Only other thing I've got left is the 240Z emblem from the hatchback. Had a folder full of stuff that went with the car. Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 3 11:51:24 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 07:51:24 -0400 Subject: 747 for timing only Message-ID: Did the BIN for the 747 ignition only setup get posted to the incoming directory? If not, can someone forward a copy to me? Thanks. Shannen From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Mon May 3 12:02:39 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 08:02:39 -0400 Subject: Emulators Message-ID: Hello all, The emulator board Beta order is being sent off this morning. Files have been transferred and the Money Order will be sent here shortly. The PCB house says 3-4 weeks (Without almost doubling the price... this is standard delivery) and when I receive them, they will be shipped right out. Hopefully, everything will run smoothly, Gerber files have all they need etc... I'm a bit pre-occupied right now as my son was kidnapped on Wed, 4-28-99. I'll let everyone know when I have a ship date from the PCB house. Thanks, Dave =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From claresnyder at home.com Mon May 3 12:15:38 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 08:15:38 -0400 Subject: Need Fuel Injector Data Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Shannen Durphey To: Sent: Saturday, May 01, 1999 2:12 AM Subject: Re: Need Fuel Injector Data > There needs to be something to offset the forgotten birthdays, > meetings, bill payments, appointments, etc. > Thanks. > Shannen > Steve Ravet wrote: > > > > "swagaero". Why do I remember stuff like that? Not sure if the group is aware, but Steve, the founder of SwagAero died in a plane crash this last year. Apparently a partner is carrying on. > > > > --steve > > > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > > > There was a website which mentioned using Saturn parts for aircraft > > > EFI conversions. Can't quite remember the name, but I will post it > > > when I do. If you can't wait, the person who owned the site was a > > > member of this list at one time. His posts should be in the archives. > > > Shannen > > > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > > > Couple things come to mind. > > > > GM 1987 Sunbird 2.0L 4 cylinder Turbo might be close, they are P+H. > > > > www.lindertech.com that's off the top of my head but they are in gasoline > > > > Alley > > > > Indianapolis, IN. Then RC Eng in SoCal.. > > > > How much info do you have about that ecms prom calibrations?. > > > > If your point man is gone, you might need to reevaluate your posistion. > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > A friend of mine and I are working on an unusual project. We are adapting > > > > a > > > > > '93 Saturn ECM and two DIS modules to run a Continental O-200 aircraft > > > > > engine. The engine is 200 C.I. (3.3 L) 4 cylinder dual plug and should > > > > make > > > > > about 120 HP at about 2800 RPM. > > > > > > > > > > Can anyone supply us with the information or give us an idea of where we > > > > can > > > > > find a chart with the injector data? > > > > -- > > Steve Ravet > > sravet at arm.com > > Advanced Risc Machines, INC > > www.arm.com > > From claresnyder at home.com Mon May 3 12:19:46 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 08:19:46 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Howard Wilkinson To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Transplant > Jim: > Please explain the term "floating rod bearings"......... I've > never heard it before...... The only "floating rod bearings" I've > experienced are those which spin between the bearing and the > rod.......... Definitely a bad deal.... forshadows doom! > H.W. > Some engines were MADE with spinning inserts - bearing material on both sides. Others use a loose cage rollers, with the rod being the outer race, and the crank the inner. Obviously the latter are NOT pressure lubed. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Davies > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Date: Saturday, May 01, 1999 12:24 AM > Subject: Re: Transplant > > > > > > > >On Sat, 1 May 1999, Robert Harris wrote: > > > >> Nah - some insane whacko is building a unique engine from various > scrap parts > >> and ancient hot rod ideas. When it get's finished, it will be > vaguely fordish > >> and definitely unusual and maybe not too expensive. > >> > >Floating rod bearings too? > > > > > > > > From claresnyder at home.com Mon May 3 12:32:20 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 08:32:20 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: William T Wilson To: Sent: Saturday, May 01, 1999 8:52 PM Subject: Re: Flame - Not > On Sat, 1 May 1999, Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > > > >of their cars and a number of early street rods. Not only Ford used > > >flathead engines though; I've got one in a '55 Jeep, which is an inline > > >6-cylinder. > > > > I believe that they were used with the inline 4 cylinder Jeep engines, > > also. > > Some of the old 4-cylinder Jeeps were flatheads, some were OHV. As far as > I know all modern Jeep engines are OHV or OHC. Many old Jeep 4s wer "F" heads - intake in the head, exhaust in the block. > > From claresnyder at home.com Mon May 3 12:47:23 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 08:47:23 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Hermann To: Sent: Sunday, May 02, 1999 1:47 AM Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs > >Greg: > > More power to you if you can accomplish that...... I happen to > >live in the real world, and deal with old fashioned Ford & GM engines > >such as the FE series and the Small block & big block GM engines. The > >comment on life expectancy is based on 20+ years of working on these > >engines. > I had a '57 Fargo with the big (264.5)flathead six. At 249,000 miles I headed from Ontario Canada to Tulsa Oklahoma. It used a quart of oil every day at 65 - 70 mph. I sold the truck about 5 years later with the same engine in it - and the guy who bought it put a 340 six-pack in so we sold the engine to another guy for his '47 dodge coupe. Ih had the head replaced once, and a valve job that I am aware of. The 264 had the forged crank. From gderian at oh.verio.com Mon May 3 13:24:56 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:24:56 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Message-ID: Wasn't one of these engines also used in the Checker Marathon before they switched to Chevy? Gary Derian In this country--the Tornado engines only came with an eight port head (individual exhausts, but two logged intakes), and obviously without the good rods. It came in early sixties Gladiator pick-ups and Wagoneers. And, as one might expect for a hemi head with a short duration cam with aggressive valve lift rates, it got rather good mileage--about 17.5 mpg, highway--- in a well tuned 4x4 Gladiator. But--no, it was not a high revver. > > > Continental also mfrd an inline 6 cylinder, pushrod, 12 port 7 main > industrial engine. The only one I ever saw was in a Trackmobile. Delivered > new with the governor not working. It never popped, and it wasnt for lack > of trying. Could make it sound just like a good, strong SBC going thru > the traps...If they had combined short block and cylinder heads... From gderian at oh.verio.com Mon May 3 13:24:56 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:24:56 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: It doesn't have to be a big restriction, and the overall benefits may outweigh the drawbacks but the combustion that takes place in the chamber is restricted from delivering pull power. You must be referring to the Honda CVCC which was a good solution to emissions at the time. My comment was mostly directed to prechamber diesels where all the fuel is injected into the prechamber. Gary Derian > > -> Any time a device that restricts flow is introduced into the path of > -> air and fuel, power is reduced. A pre-chamber is such a device and > -> such an engine will lose efficiency compared to an open chamber > -> design. > > A prechamber doesn't necessarily have to restrict flow. It can be *in > addition* to normal flow, as was used in various Japanese automobile > engines a few years ago. > > ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== From gderian at oh.verio.com Mon May 3 13:24:56 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:24:56 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: A "puddle" of fuel in this context can mean a cloud of droplets in the port. The shock wave that hits this breaks up the drops into smaller ones. Sure it gets diluted, etc. but its the best we have for now and it does work pretty well. The only way to inject atomized fuel in a short period of time is with a mechanical injection pump except maybe the stuff used in single rail diesels. Does anyone know what the single rail diesels use for pressure and injectors? One question I have is When does a SEFI system fire the injectors, during the intake stroke or some other time? Gary Derian > There has been some recent research that indicates the best atomization > occurs when the exhaust hits the puddled fuel behind the intake valve when > the valve opens. Atomization of fuel as it leaves the injector is not > terribly important. > > Gary Derian > > From gderian at oh.verio.com Mon May 3 13:25:00 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:25:00 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: My guess is the reeds restrict flow at high rpm. Look at the size of a reed cage in a 125cc motorcycle engine. The whole cage is maybe 2 by 3 inches. The really early engines used no cam for the intake valves, just a lightly sprung poppet valve. Gary Derian > > -> cam to get variable duration and the reed valves would take care of > -> the blowback problem at the low end...... At least a first thought > > Alfa Romeo built some engines like that 20 years ago. There were also > some stationary engines using reed valves at the beginning of the > century. > > The Alfa setup let them run a long duration cam without confusing the > carburetor with reversion pulses or contaminating one cylinder's intake > charge with another's exhaust coming through on overlap. It looked like > a fine idea to me, and I have no idea why they dropped it. > From mail at darkstar.mv.com Mon May 3 14:02:38 1999 From: mail at darkstar.mv.com (Peter D. Hipson) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 10:02:38 -0400 Subject: floating flatheads Message-ID: A floating bearing is free to spin on either surface, the rod, or the crank. Both the rods and the crank are surface for this, and the bearing has load surfaces on both sides. Oiling is done with mulitple holes, and groves. At 12:35 AM 5/2/99 -0700, you wrote: >Pardon me for interrupting the spirited repartee, but what >the heck is a floating bearing, Greg? I know about inserts >and rollers, have poured and bored babbit bushes... >Piston pins "float" in rod bushes - Unless they don't. >Perhaps you are referring to dip/splash oiling schemes, as >opposed to pressure lubrication? >Anyway, would appreciate an elaboration. > >Thanks, Jack > > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Mon May 3 14:31:25 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 10:31:25 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: Contrary to public myth, there actually is more than one stratified charge design - but then anyone who was not blindly prejudiced would have know that. For Example - the Texaco /MANN design where the fuel is injected past a sparking plug that is firing repeatedly. Gets the best of both diesel for economy and otto cause it can burn rich of stoic and great economy because it can run WOT always and no denotation. Then there is the unscavenged "blind"prechamber also known as a torch cell, which is not involved in air flow. The fuel scavenged prechamber ( the more common ) variant - which has fuel shot thru it - kinda like the spark plug injector thingee that started this thread. Its not involved in air flow. The air scavenged pre chamber ala Honda CVCC - which has a separate intake valve ( very small ) and port and runner - again not interfering with flow - Honda continued this design with a three valve head that had two intakes, one exhaust and a cvcc valve. Didn't seem to slow them down much. Didn't seem to have any negative impact on air flow or power or economy. In fact, excepting some obscure diesel designs, none of the popular pre-chambers is a device that is involved in the main air flow so they can't possible introduce a restriction into the path of fuel or air. The minor loss of theoretical peak thermal efficiency is greatly offset by the vast increase in range of combustion, quality of fuel, and faster burning. But hey - I must be a dumbshit - I only researched it extensively instead of simply anally extracting some spurious so there comment. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 22:31:00 -0500 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Direct Injection - Stratified - -> Any time a device that restricts flow is introduced into the path of - -> air and fuel, power is reduced. A pre-chamber is such a device and - -> such an engine will lose efficiency compared to an open chamber - -> design. A prechamber doesn't necessarily have to restrict flow. It can be *in addition* to normal flow, as was used in various Japanese automobile engines a few years ago. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From owly at mcn.net Mon May 3 14:43:41 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 10:43:41 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: Dave: I'm not sure if you are speaking of the many "hit & Miss" type engines which used an ordinary valve with a light spring which was sucked open during the intake stroke..... I presume this is what you mean by "reed valve".....or was there some other form of reed valve used? A friend of mine has a number of these engines still in use. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Dave Williams To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 10:24 PM Subject: Espen's Reed Valves -> cam to get variable duration and the reed valves would take care of -> the blowback problem at the low end...... At least a first thought Alfa Romeo built some engines like that 20 years ago. There were also some stationary engines using reed valves at the beginning of the century. The Alfa setup let them run a long duration cam without confusing the carburetor with reversion pulses or contaminating one cylinder's intake charge with another's exhaust coming through on overlap. It looked like a fine idea to me, and I have no idea why they dropped it. From owly at mcn.net Mon May 3 15:01:21 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:01:21 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: An old trick which I will relate, but not advocate, is to run the piston down to the bottom of the cylinder, and smear grease on the cylinder wall above it. You then run the piston up and the top ring gathers the grease ahead of it on the way up. You then perform you piston cleaning chore with your wire brush while protecting the other cylinders, etc, and blow or suck the surface clean when done. Then you crank the piston back down, and the grease with any crud that found it's way down around the piston remains near the top of the hole where you can wipe it out. This is a trick many of the old timers used, and it works, but I'm sure it is not considered good form these days. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Harding To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 9:54 PM Subject: Re: valve job question >>off the carbon that was on top of the cylinders. I used to rotate the engine >>around and bring the pistons up to tdc and whirl away with a drill bit >>mounted wire brush. >> >> >>nowadays I wonder if all it did was make the piston top pretty and introduce >>lots of debris into the engine especially the cylinder walls, creating years >>of wear in minutes. > >Like you i've been known to do the same thing with the drill bit mounted >wire brush whilst the head is off (on my own motors), just filling in time >i guess and more than anything making it look shmick for any one who comes >by :P > >when I do I simply make sure that I have someone else holding the >compressed air across the top of the piston at the same time, and rags down >the adjacent cylinders. generally most of the debris gets blown away, and >any that is down the gap can be blown out with the compressed air. > >When you rotate that piston to the bottom again, just carefully wipe up the >bore with a clean rag, that will get any lingering debris. > >If you are really concerned, just turn the engine over by hand a couple >more times, and look for any more being dropped by the piston as it goes >down the bore. > >just my thoughts :) > >One thing i do think it can help with is a high compression engine pinging, >because (for a short time) there is no carbon deposits to stay hot enough >to ignite the fuel/air. > >again just my thoughts, and some observation... > >cya > > From owly at mcn.net Mon May 3 15:01:24 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:01:24 -0400 Subject: injector firing rates Message-ID: Can anybody tell me what the max practical firing rate for most of these injectors is ..... how many time a minute or second....obviously pulse width limits this, but at minimum pulse width what are the limitations of the typical injector? H.W. From bearbvd at sni.net Mon May 3 15:01:55 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:01:55 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: >A "puddle" of fuel in this context can mean a cloud of droplets in the port. >The shock wave that hits this breaks up the drops into smaller ones. Sure >it gets diluted, etc. but its the best we have for now and it does work >pretty well. The only way to inject atomized fuel in a short period of time >is with a mechanical injection pump except maybe the stuff used in single >rail diesels. Or with an air boost. Does anyone know what the single rail diesels use for >pressure and injectors? The injectors are directly above the chambers, and are actuated by an extra cam lobe/rocker arm. No idea what the pressure in the injector itself goes up to when it gets actuated--but HIGH--Probably hydraulic tappet style pressures. On a Cummins PT system (Pressure/Time) the fuel rail pressure varies with engine speed/ load, as this pressure is what determines how full the injectors get before getting activated by the cam. Up to maybe 300 psi in the rail. Changing the "button" in the Cummins fuel pump changes the pressure /speed output curve of the pump, and thus changes the amount of fuel injected at full load on a Cummins. (Not all Cummins B series (pick-up) engines have PT injection. This is 855, KT, and triple nickel stuff.) On Jimmys, there is a rack the length of the head which varies injector stroke, (adjusting the lash on the injector rockers and adjusting to equalize the strokes of the injectors is the source of the term "running the rack" or "running the overhead") and the fuel rail in the head is at relatively constant pressure, maybe 150 psi?? But--again, the actual injection pressure is on up there. Regards, Greg From gderian at oh.verio.com Mon May 3 16:06:34 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 12:06:34 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: Gee Robert, if all these engines are so good, why aren't they used by anyone? Maybe they are in the same vault with the Fish carburetor. Gary Derian > Contrary to public myth, there actually is more than one stratified charge > design - but then anyone who was not blindly prejudiced would have know that. snip From rudi at vnet.net Mon May 3 17:06:13 1999 From: rudi at vnet.net (Rudi Machilek) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:06:13 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Message-ID: Entire Toronado front drive assemble was also used in the GM Transmode RV. As I recall, the carburetor was a Carter Thermo-quad that was prone to warping and leaking. Would have loved an EFI set-up. We loaded them down with gas analyzers and mini lab set-ups and drove them all over the US. Pretty decent gas mileage but prone to overheating. Another great idea not engineered thoroughly. Rudi Machilek >In this country--the Tornado engines only came with an eight port head >(individual exhausts, but two logged intakes), and obviously without the >good rods. It came in early sixties Gladiator pick-ups and Wagoneers. And, >as one might expect for a hemi head with a short duration cam with >aggressive valve lift rates, it got rather good mileage--about 17.5 mpg, >highway--- in a well tuned 4x4 Gladiator. But--no, it was not a high >revver. From gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu Mon May 3 17:08:20 1999 From: gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu (Gregory A. Parmer) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:08:20 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: > > I'd love to see a gas engine with a 500K life in a farm truck, and > >a bcsf below .35............. With the technology people are using > >around here the service life I spoke of is realistic based on real >... > The 500K figure takes a good engine to begin with, and then some high tech > tricks and quality parts on top of that. The engine I have started out with > has a lengthy track record of running 10K hours on the heads, and 25 K > hours on the bottom end, on natural gas, at about 80% load, 2400 rpm on > well head irrigation pump applications. And that--with "farmer" I missed the beginning, but you guys are arguing for the sake of arguing now. You both know that these 2 engines/scenarios are completely non-comparable. Gasoline truck vs natural gas stationary unit. Haha. Curiosity forces me ask what type of engine is this ex pumping unit? Our LPG Olds 455 unit sings a sweet tune in that app, altho it is far from efficient with today's low pressure irrigation. The Continental flathead unit sits with a hole in the block. -greg From btisdale at cybersol.com Mon May 3 17:46:27 1999 From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 13:46:27 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 GMC port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle use these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a Syclone or Typhoon @ my local wrecking yard....... Thanks - Barry From fluffy at snurgle.org Mon May 3 18:25:45 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 14:25:45 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: On Sun, 2 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Cleaning the carbon deposits off of the piston isn't really all that > > important because they just come right back when the engine runs the next > > time. > > Sounds like a tire shop I went to once. "No need to clean the mud off > the wheel before we balance it. It just gets muddy again anyway." Heh. No, that's different, because the carbon deposits don't affect the operation of the engine. Really. Unless there's so much of it that it causes dieseling. My suggestion is more akin to saying "no need to clean the mud off the wheel before you rotate the tires." :} From bearbvd at sni.net Mon May 3 18:28:34 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 14:28:34 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Message-ID: >Entire Toronado front drive assemble was also used in the GM Transmode RV. >As I recall, the carburetor was a Carter Thermo-quad that was prone to >warping and leaking. And dissolving in some Pemex gasolines, at various, very inopportune times! Would have loved an EFI set-up. We loaded them down with gas analyzers and mini lab set-ups and drove them all over the US. Pretty decent gas mileage but prone to overheating. Another great idea not engineered thoroughly. Think you might have the Jeep/Continental/TORNADO 230 cid OHC I-6 engine we were talking about with the 455 Olds V-8 that was used in the TORONADO, Rudi! :-) Regards, Greg > >Rudi Machilek > >>In this country--the Tornado engines only came with an eight port head >>(individual exhausts, but two logged intakes), and obviously without the >>good rods. It came in early sixties Gladiator pick-ups and Wagoneers. And, >>as one might expect for a hemi head with a short duration cam with >>aggressive valve lift rates, it got rather good mileage--about 17.5 mpg, >>highway--- in a well tuned 4x4 Gladiator. But--no, it was not a high >>revver. From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Mon May 3 18:51:12 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 14:51:12 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: hmm well these are more like burned oil deposits, actually the more WD 40 I spray on them the more I can seem to wipe them up. I will go get a can of that GM top engine cleaner. sounds like a nicer thing to do. > -----Original Message----- > From: William T Wilson [SMTP:fluffy at snurgle.org] > Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 11:24 AM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: valve job question > > On Sun, 2 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > Cleaning the carbon deposits off of the piston isn't really all that > > > important because they just come right back when the engine runs the > next > > > time. > > > > Sounds like a tire shop I went to once. "No need to clean the mud off > > the wheel before we balance it. It just gets muddy again anyway." > > Heh. No, that's different, because the carbon deposits don't affect the > operation of the engine. Really. Unless there's so much of it that it > causes dieseling. > > My suggestion is more akin to saying "no need to clean the mud off the > wheel before you rotate the tires." > > :} From marttj at pcmail.css.mot.com Mon May 3 19:31:00 1999 From: marttj at pcmail.css.mot.com (Thomas Martin) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:31:00 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: I have a decent contact at a local boneyard (he owns it!), what vehicles should I be on the lookout for to find a 1227749 ECM? He has a large stack of ECM's, and many 80's cars. Thomas Martin From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 3 19:35:14 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:35:14 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: All GM TPI injectors use the same connector, as well as most ford. Pep boys might even have them. True Value does, but I don't have the number Bruce > I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 GMC port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle use these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a Syclone or Typhoon @ my local wrecking yard....... > Thanks - Barry From marttj at pcmail.css.mot.com Mon May 3 19:35:58 1999 From: marttj at pcmail.css.mot.com (Thomas Martin) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:35:58 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: Has anyone retorfitted an older V8 (non LT1) with reverse cooling? Is there any drawbacks to reverse cooling vs conventional? It is worth the mechanical rework to do? I am curious to see why GM did it on the LT1, and from what I have gathered, dropped it on the LS1. Knowing GM, there MUST have been a good reason. Thanks! Thomas Martin From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Mon May 3 19:50:17 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:50:17 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Message-ID: On Mon, 3 May 1999, Rudi Machilek wrote: > Entire Toronado front drive assemble > > >In this country--the Tornado engines Two different critters... From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 3 19:53:07 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:53:07 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Martin To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 3:36 PM Subject: Reverse Cooling? Moroso actually used to sell a kit for doing that. Trouble was it wouldn't double the HP, so was too much work. Bruce > Has anyone retorfitted an older V8 (non LT1) with reverse cooling? > > Is there any drawbacks to reverse cooling vs conventional? It is worth the > mechanical rework to do? > > I am curious to see why GM did it on the LT1, and from what I have gathered, dropped > it on the LS1. Knowing GM, there MUST have been a good reason. > > Thanks! > Thomas Martin > From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 3 19:54:25 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:54:25 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified - FISH Carb Vault....?? Message-ID: http://www.interlog.com/~boni/fish/fish.html Sincerely, Todd....!! Gary Derian wrote: > > Gee Robert, if all these engines are so good, why aren't they used by > anyone? Maybe they are in the same vault with the Fish carburetor. > > Gary Derian > > > Contrary to public myth, there actually is more than one stratified charge > > design - but then anyone who was not blindly prejudiced would have know > that. > snip From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 3 19:54:35 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 15:54:35 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: Hello People, My name is Todd, I'm new to the DIY FI thread, but believe this e-mail thread system is a heaven sent... What is the easiest setup to use on a 450+ cube BB from scratch... in order to put out at least what it does in it's carb'd form of 450+ HP, future plans are to twin turbo the beast.... Ya'll are WAY more experienced with this kindof stuff.. I'd like ya'lls input in this matter! Any help is SO appreciated....!! The engine is a built 440 cu in engine and I want to inject it with the most efficient system available for the least expensive price... i.e. already existing OEM parts, if possible.... Laptop programmable is probably a must.... Thanks.... Todd.... P.S. - I plan on using an EEC-IV with aftermarket injectors and throttle body because of the larger displacement and HP... What do ya'll think? Thanks again.... Barry Tisdale wrote: > > I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 GMC port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle use these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a Syclone or Typhoon @ my local wrecking yard....... > > Thanks - Barry From mwichstr at online.no Mon May 3 20:52:15 1999 From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:52:15 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: Hi! I want to use a reed cage from a outboard two stroke engine or crosser bike. With carbon fiber reed pedals for minimum restriction,or boyesen reeds.There is little difference in max output from two stroke with reedvalve and rotary valve.By using a hotter cam than you would do without reeds, I think you can have more hp at max and gobs of torque down low.I would be difficult to mount the reeds as close to the valves as possible, I think a 4 valver is most suited because of the two inlet runners making a easy transition to the wide reed cage. Using a rotary file and file the two runners together and mount the reed cage as the start of the intakemanifold. Espen. > Dave: > I'm not sure if you are speaking of the many "hit & Miss" type > engines which used an ordinary valve with a light spring which was > sucked open during the intake stroke..... I presume this is what you > mean by "reed valve".....or was there some other form of reed valve > used? A friend of mine has a number of these engines still in use. > H.W. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Williams > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 10:24 PM > Subject: Espen's Reed Valves > > > > -> cam to get variable duration and the reed valves would take care of > -> the blowback problem at the low end...... At least a first > thought > > Alfa Romeo built some engines like that 20 years ago. There were also > some stationary engines using reed valves at the beginning of the > century. > > The Alfa setup let them run a long duration cam without confusing the > carburetor with reversion pulses or contaminating one cylinder's > intake > charge with another's exhaust coming through on overlap. It looked > like > a fine idea to me, and I have no idea why they dropped it. > > From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 3 21:15:00 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:15:00 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Espen Hilde Subject: Re: Espen's Reed Valves Remember how expensive internal engine parts are. If the reeds brake they can raise hell inside an engine. They are good for just a very limited range, before they "peg" open.... To get enough reed area for a "big" engine to breath thru would be a huge reed cage. Bruce > I want to use a reed cage from a outboard two stroke engine or crosser > bike. > With carbon fiber reed pedals for minimum restriction,or boyesen > reeds.There is little difference in max output from two stroke with > reedvalve and rotary valve.By using a hotter cam than you would do without > reeds, > I think you can have more hp at max and gobs of torque down low.I would be > difficult to mount the reeds as close to the valves as possible, I think a > 4 valver is most suited because of the two inlet runners making a easy > transition to the wide reed cage. Using a rotary file and file the two > runners > together and mount the reed cage as the start of the intakemanifold. > Espen. > > Dave: > > I'm not sure if you are speaking of the many "hit & Miss" type > > engines which used an ordinary valve with a light spring which was > > sucked open during the intake stroke..... I presume this is what you > > mean by "reed valve".....or was there some other form of reed valve > > used? A friend of mine has a number of these engines still in use. > > H.W. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave Williams > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > > Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 10:24 PM > > Subject: Espen's Reed Valves > > -> cam to get variable duration and the reed valves would take care of > > -> the blowback problem at the low end...... At least a first > > thought > > Alfa Romeo built some engines like that 20 years ago. There were also > > some stationary engines using reed valves at the beginning of the > > century. > > The Alfa setup let them run a long duration cam without confusing the > > carburetor with reversion pulses or contaminating one cylinder's > > intake > > charge with another's exhaust coming through on overlap. It looked > > like > > a fine idea to me, and I have no idea why they dropped it. From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 3 22:19:01 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:19:01 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: -> Gee Robert, if all these engines are so good, why aren't they used by -> anyone? Maybe they are in the same vault with the Fish carburetor. The stratified, lean-burn, and DI technologies produce higher levels of oxides of nitrogen than conventional designs. NOx is hard to deal with; there are catalytic convertors that can handle *some* NOx, but not the amounts a really fuel-efficient engine can put out. It comes down to a choice - do you want to use cheap smog control technology, or do you want maximum fuel efficiency? Note DIY isn't necessarily concerned with smog. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Mon May 3 22:41:15 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:41:15 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: At 05:15 PM 5/3/99 -0400, you wrote: >Remember how expensive internal engine parts are. If the reeds brake they >can raise hell inside an engine. > They are good for just a very limited range, before they "peg" open.... >To get enough reed area for a "big" engine to breath thru would be a huge >reed cage. >Bruce I see your point. Does anyone have access top a reed cage from, say, a 500cc motocrosser? That should flow enough air for the 60+ horsepower it produces. Is it too big to fit nicely into a typical intake port? Say an eight-cylinder engine, so eight times 60 = 480 horse capacity. It seems too simple to me, maybe somebody can help me out here? I understand that flow through a two-stroke engine cannot be compared directly to that of a four-stroke, but am too lazy to do the figuring and figured I'd offer this to the group as fodder... Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From gsxr1100 at ptw.com Mon May 3 23:25:18 1999 From: gsxr1100 at ptw.com (Rick) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 19:25:18 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified - FISH Carb Vault....?? Message-ID: The real story behind these fishy carbs http://www.syc.org/e/dennis27.htm Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Direct Injection - Stratified - FISH Carb Vault....?? > http://www.interlog.com/~boni/fish/fish.html > > Sincerely, > > Todd....!! > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > > Gee Robert, if all these engines are so good, why aren't they used by > > anyone? Maybe they are in the same vault with the Fish carburetor. > > > > Gary Derian > > > > > Contrary to public myth, there actually is more than one stratified charge > > > design - but then anyone who was not blindly prejudiced would have know > > that. > > snip > > From afgun at mongoose.dearborn.sgi.com Tue May 4 00:16:28 1999 From: afgun at mongoose.dearborn.sgi.com (Andrew F. Gunnesch) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:16:28 -0400 Subject: ARAP bin Message-ID: The "hot ticket" for '89 '165 chips is supposed to be the ARAP. >From one of Bruce's prior posts: arap 4194 5.7 Auto 89 Vet Anybody have an ARAP binary they could mail to me and/or upload to /incoming? Thanks! --andrew -- Andrew Gunnesch sgi, onsite at Ford Motor Company Voice: 248-848-4517 FAX: 313-441-6341 V-net: 327-4517 From clendenc at execpc.com Tue May 4 00:40:10 1999 From: clendenc at execpc.com (Chad Clendening) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:40:10 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: I may still have one from a 72 Evinrude 600 ( 650 ? ) cc 2 cylinder snowmobile in a bucket. If memory serves, the thing had 8 reeds and was 3 tall, 1 1/2 " wide and 2" deep, for each cylinder. I can look for it if anyone wants specifics. Chad Aaron Willis wrote: > At 05:15 PM 5/3/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Remember how expensive internal engine parts are. If the reeds brake they > >can raise hell inside an engine. > > They are good for just a very limited range, before they "peg" open.... > >To get enough reed area for a "big" engine to breath thru would be a huge > >reed cage. > >Bruce > > I see your point. Does anyone have access top a reed cage from, say, a > 500cc motocrosser? That should flow enough air for the 60+ horsepower it > produces. Is it too big to fit nicely into a typical intake port? Say an > eight-cylinder engine, so eight times 60 = 480 horse capacity. It seems > too simple to me, maybe somebody can help me out here? > I understand that flow through a two-stroke engine cannot be compared > directly to that of a four-stroke, but am too lazy to do the figuring and > figured I'd offer this to the group as fodder... > > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From dls2867 at hotmail.com Tue May 4 01:00:08 1999 From: dls2867 at hotmail.com (David Sagers) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:00:08 -0400 Subject: CFM Questions Message-ID: Anyone know how to calculate CFM rates? I was talking to the shop that's building the turbo set up for my chevy engine. He said that at 15 lbs of boost each runner on a stock TPI will flow 600 cfm. I think the stock runners are 1.25" But 600 cfm sounds really high for such a small tube, even at 15 lbs of boost. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 4 01:23:10 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:23:10 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: CLsnyder wrote: > > > Some engines were MADE with spinning inserts - bearing material on both > sides. Others use a loose cage rollers, with the rod being the outer race, > and the crank the inner. Obviously the latter are NOT pressure lubed. What engines used roller bearings? What applications? Shannen From RRauscher at nni.com Tue May 4 01:34:55 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:34:55 -0400 Subject: 747 for timing only Message-ID: No, I haven't put it up there yet. I've been busy again, something about finding a job. Did you know that there are people out there, that insist on finding you a job? The nerve of some folks! Really does cut into the free time . I've been playing around with the aldl list, trying to have the timing values output. I think I've got it, but it's raining today. I promise that I'll get it there soon, I need to clean-up the bin by removing the fueling changes that aren't being used. BobR. P.S> Shannen, I'm sending a copy of what I have... I'll post when the final hit's incoming. Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Did the BIN for the 747 ignition only setup get posted to the incoming > directory? If not, can someone forward a copy to me? > Thanks. > Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 4 02:12:15 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:12:15 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: Wait, there's a catch. If this has the same injector as used in the later 4.3l Vortech engine, it's got a different connector. Barry, if the injector looks like a bug and is buried in the center of a large, 2 piece manifold you can find similar parts in Astrovans and S-10s with the VIN W engine. Shannen Bruce Plecan wrote: > > All GM TPI injectors use the same connector, as well as most ford. > Pep boys might even have them. > True Value does, but I don't have the number > Bruce > > > I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 GMC > port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle use > these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a > Syclone or Typhoon @ my local wrecking yard....... > > Thanks - Barry From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 4 03:01:20 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:01:20 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Shannen Durphey To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 10:02 PM Subject: Re: Injectors & harness The injectors I just bought out of a sy really look like the ones I put in the Buick GN fuel rails. Bruce > Wait, there's a catch. If this has the same injector as used in the > later 4.3l Vortech engine, it's got a different connector. > Barry, if the injector looks like a bug and is buried in the center of > a large, 2 piece manifold you can find similar parts in Astrovans and > S-10s with the VIN W engine. > Shannen > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > All GM TPI injectors use the same connector, as well as most ford. > > Pep boys might even have them. > > True Value does, but I don't have the number > > Bruce > > > > > I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 GMC > > port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle use > > these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a > > Syclone or Typhoon @ my local wrecking yard....... > > > Thanks - Barry > From jamesm at talarian.com Tue May 4 03:19:58 1999 From: jamesm at talarian.com (James Montebello) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:19:58 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: > What engines used roller bearings? What applications? > Shannen A great many engines use roller bearings. The bottom ends of most two-stroke engines are all roller bearings. A good many four-stroke motorcycle engines have also been made using rolling-element bottom ends. Harleys use them, most four-stroke singles, and quite a few large displacement fours made by Suzuki and Kawasaki used rollers. Even on engines with plain main and big end bearings, rollers are typically used at the ends of the crankshaft, and in the gearboxes. Porsche made a few racing engines that used roller bearing bottom ends in the '50s, and '60s. In all cases, the crankshafts are multiple pieces pressed together around the bearings and one-piece rods. For very high-stress operation, these bits would be welded together. If the crank needed to be rebuilt, the weld was ground off, and the parts pressed apart. Most of these engines are not low power applications, either. The two-stroke GP machines made today produce in excess of 400hp/liter unsupercharged. The big roller bearing Suzuki and Kawasaki engines are very popular in drag-bike applications. james montebello From thergen at svn.net Tue May 4 03:53:09 1999 From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:53:09 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: My '92 6 cyl vortec 4.3 (vin W) has a single CPI injector (Central Port Injector as describe in the factory service manual). It is a single injector with six flexible tubes coming off and special nozzles at the end that maintain pressure in in the tubes when the injector not flowing. The nozzles have plastic clips that hold them into holes at the end of each intake runner. I thought the Syclone (vin Z?) actually had 6 injectors. Anyways, the CPI does inject at the port, but I haven't heard it called a TPI injector. Tom On Mon, 3 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shannen Durphey > To: > Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 10:02 PM > Subject: Re: Injectors & harness > > The injectors I just bought out of a sy really look like the ones I put in > the Buick GN fuel rails. > Bruce > > > Wait, there's a catch. If this has the same injector as used in the > > later 4.3l Vortech engine, it's got a different connector. > > Barry, if the injector looks like a bug and is buried in the center of > > a large, 2 piece manifold you can find similar parts in Astrovans and > > S-10s with the VIN W engine. > > Shannen > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > All GM TPI injectors use the same connector, as well as most ford. > > > Pep boys might even have them. > > > True Value does, but I don't have the number > > > Bruce > > > > > > > I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 > GMC > > > port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle > use > > > these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a > > > Syclone or Typhoon @ my local wrecking yard....... > > > > Thanks - Barry > > > From efi at cardozo.org Tue May 4 03:56:06 1999 From: efi at cardozo.org (Al Lipper) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:56:06 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: Marc, it is good to hear of your interest, as well as your experience with th 80C552. It sounds like you've done some nice work with it. At the present time, we have a relatively final version of the ECU7 schematic (newer than the one on the web), as well as a completed PC board layout. Unfortunately, it is expensive to have a small quantity of PC boards made (close to $500), so I've been unable to move ahead until I can either find a cheaper way to have them made, or find enough people to split the cost. I'm planning to post the most recent version of ECU7 to the web, as soon as I can get some more web space. The schematic and PCB were done with OrCAD 386+, so if you have compatible software, I'd be happy to e-mail you the original source files. We've been looking for someone with 80C552 experience for a while, so hearing from you is very fortuitous. Even better, it sounds like you've already done some of what we need. The first thing is the writing of a .HEX loader that will allow an intel .HEX file received over the serial port to be loaded into the 5v flash memory. The second thing is for the old assembly routines (EFI02.ASM) that worked on ECU6, running on the Intel 80C51GB to be converted to use the 552. The 80C51GB used PCA's where the 552 has its own capture/compare timers. Also, the A/D converter read routines need adaptation. It's really a rather simple file, and hopefully the documentation is clear. Once we can get one of these built and working, I expect progress can be swift. Thanks for all of your help, Marc - it's good to have you on the project. Al efi at cardozo.org At 09:57 PM 5/3/99 +0200, you wrote: >Hi All, > >With interest I read your page about your DIY-EFI. I was reading the >revision 7 files and noticed you will be using the 80C552. Although I do not >think these are best for EFI, I do think they will work well. I have made my >own 80C552 board and it has some nice features. Like flash programming (on >board), downloading .HEX files to the board for execution (without burning >them in flash). I am very interested in EFI and have quite some knowledge in >assembler programming the 80C552. I would be very interested in cooperating >with you. If you are also interested, can you please mail me back with the >status of revision 7 and a short to-do list ? > >Thanks in advance and keep up the good work > >Marc >marc at vdvossen.nl > > > From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Tue May 4 03:59:58 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:59:58 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: -> What engines used roller bearings? What applications? Bugatti - all the straight eights were ball and roller bearing Alfa Romeo - many of the prewar engines Lots of airplanes and motorcycles From owly at mcn.net Tue May 4 04:04:35 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 00:04:35 -0400 Subject: Fish Carb.... not dead yet? Message-ID: A friend of mine used to own one of the original fish carbs, and I've had it apart and examined it. It was tried on a number of vehicles, and the results were uniformly dissapointing..... and not for lack of trying. I personally put the fish in the same category as the Borke engine and many other wonderful technologies over the years that didn't work......... An old friend of mine tells of having all sorts of gas savers, magnets on gas lines, etc on his car, but of having to remove them due to the inconvenience of having to stop every 50 miles or so and siphon off surplus gas....... If you believe that one, I've got some land in Florida you might be interested in ;-) H.W. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Tue May 4 04:08:22 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 00:08:22 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: At 08:52 PM 5/3/99 -0700, you wrote: >My '92 6 cyl vortec 4.3 (vin W) has a single CPI injector (Central Port >Injector as describe in the factory service manual). It is a single >injector with six flexible tubes coming off and special nozzles at the end >that maintain pressure in in the tubes when the injector not flowing. The >nozzles have plastic clips that hold them into holes at the end of each >intake runner. > >I thought the Syclone (vin Z?) actually had 6 injectors. > It does >Anyways, the CPI does inject at the port, but I haven't heard it called a >TPI injector. > The TPI just means tuned port injection... CPI is actually TPI, as the CPI manifold is tuned for specific torque peaks at 2 different RPM instead of just one...Air door closed (low RPM) and one with it open (high RPM). =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 4 04:58:35 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 00:58:35 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: Ok. Then the 4.3W and the Syclone don't share injectors. The W engine has one injector connected to 6 poppet nozzles, each through a hose. Looks a little like a deformed spider. Shannen Bruce Plecan wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shannen Durphey > To: > Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 10:02 PM > Subject: Re: Injectors & harness > > The injectors I just bought out of a sy really look like the ones I put in > the Buick GN fuel rails. > Bruce > > > Wait, there's a catch. If this has the same injector as used in the > > later 4.3l Vortech engine, it's got a different connector. > > Barry, if the injector looks like a bug and is buried in the center of > > a large, 2 piece manifold you can find similar parts in Astrovans and > > S-10s with the VIN W engine. > > Shannen > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > All GM TPI injectors use the same connector, as well as most ford. > > > Pep boys might even have them. > > > True Value does, but I don't have the number > > > Bruce > > > > > > > I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 > GMC > > > port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle > use > > > these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a > > > Syclone or Typhoon @ my local wrecking yard....... > > > > Thanks - Barry > > From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Tue May 4 05:13:04 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 01:13:04 -0400 Subject: Fish Carbs Message-ID: Same reason as the valve in block L head "Flat Head" reigned supreme for 40 odd years. Just because it is very good doesn't make it cheap - and to the vast majority of the automotive purchasers cheap is the only virtue. Never confuse good with cheap - or you will buy Compak Packard Bell Hewlett Packard Gateway Cyrix and AMD etc. Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:48:36 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Direct Injection - Stratified Gee Robert, if all these engines are so good, why aren't they used by anyone? Maybe they are in the same vault with the Fish carburetor. Gary Derian > Contrary to public myth, there actually is more than one stratified charge > design - but then anyone who was not blindly prejudiced would have know that. snip -- From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Tue May 4 06:09:29 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:09:29 -0400 Subject: fuel line check valve reality check Message-ID: howdy. I am trying to find 2 'flapper' type, low threshold, fuel check valves for my 72 xj6, my thought is to tie both fuel tanks together with a one way valve in each line, then have that go to a 'T' then to the chev mechanical pump. (I have a Chevy eng in it and I want to remove the old original electric fuel pumps & related mess in the trunk.) an email to Earl's got me a $50.00 price per valve, not including the fittings. I called another place and got a price of $195.00 for a single electric shut off valve, (I briefly thought of using 2 of them). this is a low-tech daily driver, why are one way check valves & stuff so expensive ?? yikes ! is there some plain old ford/chev, one way check valve someplace ? thanks, Ted. From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Tue May 4 06:15:04 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:15:04 -0400 Subject: OT max economy, engine stress Message-ID: I have been trying the "floor-it-in-high" driving technique for a tank or two, and results appear promising, so far. My question for y'all is whether I ought to be concerned with what I have always been told is very hard on an engine - asking it to do a lot of work at very low RPM. My car doesn't really "like" to be lugged below about 2000 RPM, depending on load. It shakes and shudders if I load it down to heavily, although it does continue to pull. Am I beating the bottom end out of the engine? Also curious about heating the fuel to improve economy. Worth half a damn? Any words of encouragement or caution? Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 4 06:31:19 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:31:19 -0400 Subject: Fish Carb.... not dead yet? Message-ID: Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > A friend of mine used to own one of the original fish carbs, and I've > had it apart and examined it. It was tried on a number of vehicles, > and the results were uniformly dissapointing..... and not for lack of > trying. I personally put the fish in the same category as the Borke > engine and many other wonderful technologies over the years that > didn't work......... An old friend of mine tells of having all sorts > of gas savers, magnets on gas lines, etc on his car, but of having to > remove them due to the inconvenience of having to stop every 50 miles > or so and siphon off surplus gas....... If you believe that one, > I've got some land in Florida you might be interested in ;-) H.W. You'd have better luck selling ocean front property in MT. Shannen From trevor.jackson at dsto.defence.gov.au Tue May 4 07:05:45 1999 From: trevor.jackson at dsto.defence.gov.au (Jackson, Trevor) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 03:05:45 -0400 Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM Message-ID: I'm currently trying to help a friend get a 305 TPI engine running, but without much success so far. I believe that the engine is from an 87 or 88 Camero auto (bought from a wrecked car), the wiring loom is from a manual Camero, and the ECM we have is from the Australian Holden Commodore (which from what I've read from the archives is the 1227808). I understand that the '808 ecm is more or less equivalent to the '165 ecm, and so we should be able to use it OK. The problem we have is with the Memcals. We have the Memcal that came with the ecm, which is a ASBX 9285 from the 307 engine that is used in the Commodores, and a Memcal from (we think) a 89 Camero with a 305 TPI (EPROM AGYM 3493). As yet we have been able to get the engine running using the 89 Camero Memcal, but it does run (not very well though) using the Memcal from the Commodore. We think that the Memcal from the 89 Camero is not working because we do not have a VATS signal to send to the ecm - I plan to build the circuit to emulate that so that we can see if that is the problem. If this is the problem, is the program/data from the AGYM 3493 EPROM suitable for this engine, or do I need to get hold of a different EPROM image and program up another EPROM? BTW, can anyone tell me what is the correct EPROM image for an 87/88 305 TPI engine? I've only just discovered these mailing lists and am slowly making my way through the archives. There is a mountain of info there - I just need to find the relevant pieces. regards Trevor Jackson From fluffy at snurgle.org Tue May 4 08:39:35 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 04:39:35 -0400 Subject: OT max economy, engine stress Message-ID: On Mon, 3 May 1999, Aaron Willis wrote: > My question for y'all is whether I ought to be concerned with > what I have always been told is very hard on an engine - asking it to > do a lot of work at very low RPM. My car doesn't really "like" to be > lugged below about 2000 RPM, depending on load. It shakes and > shudders if I load it down to heavily, although it does continue to > pull. If your engine is shuddering, you should downshift. Some engines (most diesels, GM Lx1 series V8) will pull like mad more or less from idle. It really takes an effort to lug these engines. Fortunately, the Trans Am and, I think, Camaro of recent years have an "engine lugging solenoid" which forces you to shift into fourth gear at about 20-25 mph. :} The 3-cylinder engine in my Geo Metro has the world's strangest torque curve, and doesn't mind being lugged at all. For a small engine, this is highly unusual, IMO. Nevertheless, it's ready to go at 1500 RPM. This is, I'm sure, part of why it gets 45-50 MPG. :} > Am I beating the bottom end out of the engine? Well, you aren't doing it any good. Just don't lug the engine. It serves no purpose and, although most modern engines will put up with it (and a variety of other abuses) without too much complaint, you accomplish nothing by doing it, so don't. > Also curious about heating the fuel to improve economy. Worth > half a damn? Any words of encouragement or caution? Useless on fuel injected engine, IMO. May obtain some benefit on setup where fuel is vaporized. Fuel injection system atomizes fuel and hot fuel will do nothing except (marginally) increase risk of detonation. From tcb123 at qatar.net.qa Tue May 4 09:37:56 1999 From: tcb123 at qatar.net.qa (Tom Bennett) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 05:37:56 -0400 Subject: Pintle Caps Message-ID: Hi All, I have just received some new seals and caps for my Bosch injectors #0 280 150 164, The question is, the original Pintle cap has a slightly smaller hole than the new one, original stamped #3 new one #2. Is this going to be a major problem if I use the new ones? regards Tom From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Tue May 4 09:44:57 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 05:44:57 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. Says could be ready within 10 yrs. Will not need fuel injection or conventional fuel as we know it. There is a photo of a car airborne, but did not say if prototype. article in this issue of Discover Magazine. alex From zurlo at execpc.com Tue May 4 11:09:04 1999 From: zurlo at execpc.com (Jim Zurlo) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 07:09:04 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: Almost all large (>6 liters/cylinder) lean burn natural gas engines are stratified charge. They have a prechamber where fuel only is admitted. The spark plug is located in the prechamber. This allows the engine to run much leaner (lambda = 2) than an open chamber engine. For a given lambda stratified charge does produce more NOx, but the prechamber allows the engine to be run leaner where NOx emissions are lower. Prechamber engines have the best efficiency, topping out around 43% thermal efficiency now. For the ultimate in low NOx emissions nothing beats a stoichiometric engine with a three way converter. There has been a renewed interest in direct injection gasoline engines recently for improved fuel econonmy. The only sticking point is reducing the exhaust NOx emissions with a lean NOx catalyst. Lot's of people are working on that and there are solutions (Selective Catalytic Reduction) but they are really expensive and require a source of ammonia. Not something you want to carry around in a vehicle. Jim Zurlo zurlo at execpc.com At 02:30 PM 5/3/99 GMT, you wrote: >Contrary to public myth, there actually is more than one stratified charge >design - but then anyone who was not blindly prejudiced would have know that. > >For Example - the Texaco /MANN design where the fuel is injected past a >sparking plug that is firing repeatedly. Gets the best of both diesel for >economy and otto cause it can burn rich of stoic and great economy because it >can run WOT always and no denotation. > >Then there is the unscavenged "blind"prechamber also known as a torch cell, >which is not involved in air flow. > >The fuel scavenged prechamber ( the more common ) variant - which has fuel >shot thru it - kinda like the spark plug injector thingee that started this >thread. Its not involved in air flow. > >The air scavenged pre chamber ala Honda CVCC - which has a separate intake >valve ( very small ) and port and runner - again not interfering with flow - >Honda continued this design with a three valve head that had two intakes, one >exhaust and a cvcc valve. Didn't seem to slow them down much. Didn't seem to >have any negative impact on air flow or power or economy. > >In fact, excepting some obscure diesel designs, none of the popular >pre-chambers is a device that is involved in the main air flow so they can't >possible introduce a restriction into the path of fuel or air. > >The minor loss of theoretical peak thermal efficiency is greatly offset by the >vast increase in range of combustion, quality of fuel, and faster burning. > >But hey - I must be a dumbshit - I only researched it extensively instead of >simply anally extracting some spurious so there comment. > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 22:31:00 -0500 >From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) >Subject: Re: Direct Injection - Stratified > >- -> Any time a device that restricts flow is introduced into the path of >- -> air and fuel, power is reduced. A pre-chamber is such a device and >- -> such an engine will lose efficiency compared to an open chamber >- -> design. > > A prechamber doesn't necessarily have to restrict flow. It can be *in >addition* to normal flow, as was used in various Japanese automobile >engines a few years ago. > >==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== >I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? >my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? >=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm > > > From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Tue May 4 11:24:27 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 07:24:27 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: > Unfortunately, it is expensive to have a small quantity of PC boards made > (close to $500), so I've been unable to move ahead until I can either find If your design calls for a single sided or double sided PC board, there is a product I saw at a tradeshow a year or two ago that you can plot your board using a special tonor to contact paper, then rub the pcboard onto the copper clad board, then etch. I'll see if I can find the brochure and get more information... I had saved it because it would facilitate my being able to make one-offs. Since you posted the pcboard routes on the ftp site... it might be a cheesy way of one making their own boards. I'll see what I can dig up. --- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology "Leadership in IT" Bridgeport, CT 06606 Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com Voice: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 From mail at darkstar.mv.com Tue May 4 11:50:52 1999 From: mail at darkstar.mv.com (Peter D. Hipson) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 07:50:52 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: There were (aftermarket) roller bearings available for VW air cooled engines (probably still are). At 09:13 PM 5/3/99 -0400, you wrote: >CLsnyder wrote: > >> > >> Some engines were MADE with spinning inserts - bearing material on both >> sides. Others use a loose cage rollers, with the rod being the outer race, >> and the crank the inner. Obviously the latter are NOT pressure lubed. >What engines used roller bearings? What applications? >Shannen > > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon From jweir at att.net Tue May 4 11:54:14 1999 From: jweir at att.net (jweir at att.net) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 07:54:14 -0400 Subject: Fish Carbs Message-ID: Ahh this might be a great time to bring up the triangle of truisms GOOD ^ / \ / \ / \ ------- CHEAP EASY when any too are true the third must be false. Jason -- 88 Wrangler - 155K miles and counting 258 I6, 4.0 head, Cherokee header, 2 1/2 exhaust with high flow cat & Flowmaster GM TBI, Crane 260H Cam TJ Fender Flares http://home.att.net/~jweir CNC 4X4 Member - http://cnc.4x4.org/ > Same reason as the valve in block L head "Flat Head" reigned supreme for 40 > odd years. Just because it is very good doesn't make it cheap - and to the > vast majority of the automotive purchasers cheap is the only virtue. Never > confuse good with cheap - or you will buy Compak Packard Bell Hewlett Packard > Gateway Cyrix and AMD etc. > > > Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:48:36 -0400 > From: "Gary Derian" > Subject: Re: Direct Injection - Stratified > > Gee Robert, if all these engines are so good, why aren't they used by > anyone? Maybe they are in the same vault with the Fish carburetor. > > Gary Derian > > > > Contrary to public myth, there actually is more than one stratified charge > > design - but then anyone who was not blindly prejudiced would have know > that. > snip > > -- From m.s.bower at cummins.com Tue May 4 12:24:39 1999 From: m.s.bower at cummins.com (Matt S Bower) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:24:39 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: GM went to it earlier than the LT1. If you look at late 80's IROC's TA's and vettes they should all be reverse flowed. The reason as I can recall was something to do with trying to control the head temps for emmisions. They were able to get around the need with the LS1 engine and went back to the standard flow which I believe keeps the whole system at a more uniform temp. Bottom line still is that the gains weren't high enough for anyone else to fool with it. Thomas Martin wrote: > > Has anyone retorfitted an older V8 (non LT1) with reverse cooling? > > Is there any drawbacks to reverse cooling vs conventional? It is worth the > mechanical rework to do? > > I am curious to see why GM did it on the LT1, and from what I have gathered, dropped > it on the LS1. Knowing GM, there MUST have been a good reason. > > Thanks! > Thomas Martin From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Tue May 4 12:24:50 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:24:50 -0400 Subject: Fish Carbs Message-ID: > GOOD > ^ > / \ > / \ > / \ > ------- > CHEAP EASY Good one Jason... good one. I wonder how my twin-turbo 431 efi stroker fits into this... unreliable ^ / \ / \ ----- expensive complex ROFL -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From spectric at yahoo.com Tue May 4 12:38:29 1999 From: spectric at yahoo.com (Roy) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:38:29 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: > Hi all The Bosch single rail system being introduced on diesels uses a mechanical pump to generate a fuel rail pressure of around 1800 bar. The injectors are triggered like petrol injection injectors by a signal from the ECU. --- Greg Hermann wrote: > >A "puddle" of fuel in this context can mean a cloud > of droplets in the port. > >The shock wave that hits this breaks up the drops > into smaller ones. Sure > >it gets diluted, etc. but its the best we have for > now and it does work > >pretty well. The only way to inject atomized fuel > in a short period of time > >is with a mechanical injection pump except maybe > the stuff used in single > >rail diesels. > > Or with an air boost. > > Does anyone know what the single rail diesels use > for > >pressure and injectors? > > The injectors are directly above the chambers, and > are actuated by an extra > cam lobe/rocker arm. No idea what the pressure in > the injector itself goes > up to when it gets actuated--but HIGH--Probably > hydraulic tappet style > pressures. On a Cummins PT system (Pressure/Time) > the fuel rail pressure > varies with engine speed/ load, as this pressure is > what determines how > full the injectors get before getting activated by > the cam. Up to maybe 300 > psi in the rail. Changing the "button" in the > Cummins fuel pump changes the > pressure /speed output curve of the pump, and thus > changes the amount of > fuel injected at full load on a Cummins. (Not all > Cummins B series > (pick-up) engines have PT injection. This is 855, > KT, and triple nickel > stuff.) > > On Jimmys, there is a rack the length of the head > which varies injector > stroke, (adjusting the lash on the injector rockers > and adjusting to > equalize the strokes of the injectors is the source > of the term "running > the rack" or "running the overhead") and the fuel > rail in the head is at > relatively constant pressure, maybe 150 psi?? > But--again, the actual > injection pressure is on up there. > > Regards, Greg > > > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 4 12:56:29 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:56:29 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Derian To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 8:09 AM Subject: Re: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) > Wasn't one of these engines also used in the Checker Marathon before they > switched to Chevy? > No, Checker used Continental flat heads, and an overhead valve version of the same engine before switching to Chevy (1964). A few Chrysler engines were also used. > Gary Derian > From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 4 13:02:54 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:02:54 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Derian To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 11:48 AM Subject: Re: Direct Injection - Stratified > Gee Robert, if all these engines are so good, why aren't they used by > anyone? Maybe they are in the same vault with the Fish carburetor. > > Gary Derian > > > > Contrary to public myth, there actually is more than one stratified charge > > design - but then anyone who was not blindly prejudiced would have know > that. > snip > Can anybody spell COST? As long as the bean-counters and stock prices have more to say about automotive design than the engineers they will not see the light of day. > > From kenkelly at lucent.com Tue May 4 13:07:46 1999 From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:07:46 -0400 Subject: CFM Questions Message-ID: Dave, Flow is measured for a given pressure drop across the runner. I really can't imagine that this means a 600cfm flow with a 15 psi pressure drop. Who would ever spec a runner with that much drop. What is the pressure differential that creates a 600cfm flow through the tube. Then can you live with that much pressure drop? Ken David Sagers wrote: > > Anyone know how to calculate CFM rates? I was talking to the shop that's > building the turbo set up for my chevy engine. He said that at 15 lbs of > boost each runner on a stock TPI will flow 600 cfm. I think the stock > runners are 1.25" But 600 cfm sounds really high for such a small tube, > even at 15 lbs of boost. > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 4 13:09:42 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:09:42 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Rudi Machilek To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 1:05 PM Subject: RE: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) > Entire Toronado front drive assemble was also used in the GM Transmode RV. As I recall, the carburetor was a Carter Thermo-quad that was prone to warping and leaking. Would have loved an EFI set-up. We loaded them down with gas analyzers and mini lab set-ups and drove them all over the US. Pretty decent gas mileage but prone to overheating. Another great idea not engineered thoroughly. TOTALLY different engine you are speaking of here Rudy. The TORNADO was a Willys engine - used in the Jeeps. The Buick V6 engine used in the Jeepster was also branded a TORNADO for a few years. The TORONADO was the Olds monster. > > Rudi Machilek > > >In this country--the Tornado engines only came with an eight port head > >(individual exhausts, but two logged intakes), and obviously without the > >good rods. It came in early sixties Gladiator pick-ups and Wagoneers. And, > >as one might expect for a hemi head with a short duration cam with > >aggressive valve lift rates, it got rather good mileage--about 17.5 mpg, > >highway--- in a well tuned 4x4 Gladiator. But--no, it was not a high > >revver. > > From kenkelly at lucent.com Tue May 4 13:10:17 1999 From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:10:17 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: Most 60's outboard engines used roller bearings, the 2 cycle versions probably still do. In a 2 cycle engine they are common because the lubrication (oiling) is only from the Fuel mix. Ken Shannen Durphey wrote: > > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > > > Some engines were MADE with spinning inserts - bearing material on both > > sides. Others use a loose cage rollers, with the rod being the outer race, > > and the crank the inner. Obviously the latter are NOT pressure lubed. > What engines used roller bearings? What applications? > Shannen From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 4 13:17:48 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:17:48 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: William T Wilson To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 2:23 PM Subject: Re: valve job question > On Sun, 2 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > Cleaning the carbon deposits off of the piston isn't really all that > > > important because they just come right back when the engine runs the next > > > time. > > > > Sounds like a tire shop I went to once. "No need to clean the mud off > > the wheel before we balance it. It just gets muddy again anyway." > > Heh. No, that's different, because the carbon deposits don't affect the > operation of the engine. Really. Unless there's so much of it that it > causes dieseling. > > My suggestion is more akin to saying "no need to clean the mud off the > wheel before you rotate the tires." > Actually, carbon deposits CAN affect engine running. Compression ratio is increased, making the engine more prone to detonation. If the cabon starts to flake you get hot spots, making the engine more prone to detonation. Soft carbon absorbs some fuel, causing cold low-speed driveability problems and causing engines to fail sniffer tests. Coating the cyl wall with grease before bringing the piston to TDC for decarbonizing was standard procedure - along with washing the cyl walls and rings down with ATF any time a head was removed to remove ALL traces of glycol from the rings before re-assembly. Glycol on the rings can cause an oil consumption problem on an otherwise OK engine very quickly. 25 years as an auto mechanic - a good number of rebuilds, valve jobs, and decarbs under my belt. Never a problem with ring / cyl damage. > :} > > From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 4 13:44:58 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:44:58 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Shannen Durphey To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 9:13 PM Subject: Re: Transplant > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > > > Some engines were MADE with spinning inserts - bearing material on both > > sides. Others use a loose cage rollers, with the rod being the outer race, > > and the crank the inner. Obviously the latter are NOT pressure lubed. > What engines used roller bearings? What applications? > Shannen > MOST 2 strokers use roller bearings, and some obscure 4 strokes - I believe a few high speed Euro motorcycle engines. A few OLD splash lubed engines also used them. From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 4 13:47:54 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:47:54 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: James Montebello To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 11:17 PM Subject: RE: Transplant > > What engines used roller bearings? What applications? > > Shannen > > A great many engines use roller bearings. The bottom ends > of most two-stroke engines are all roller bearings. > SNIPP > In all cases, the crankshafts are multiple pieces pressed > together around the bearings and one-piece rods. For very > high-stress operation, these bits would be welded together. > If the crank needed to be rebuilt, the weld was ground off, > and the parts pressed apart. > No, not all. OMC uses an automotive style crank with split caps and rollers. > Most of these engines are not low power applications, either. > The two-stroke GP machines made today produce in excess of > 400hp/liter unsupercharged. The big roller bearing Suzuki > and Kawasaki engines are very popular in drag-bike applications. > > james montebello > > From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 4 13:52:24 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:52:24 -0400 Subject: Fish Carbs Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Harris To: Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 1:12 AM Subject: Fish Carbs > Same reason as the valve in block L head "Flat Head" reigned supreme for 40 > odd years. Just because it is very good doesn't make it cheap - and to the > vast majority of the automotive purchasers cheap is the only virtue. Never > confuse good with cheap - or you will buy Compak Packard Bell Hewlett Packard > Gateway Cyrix and AMD etc. > > Sounds like the "voice of experience" speaking!! Like I always say, "If you want first quality oats, you have to pay first quality price. If, on the other hand, you wish to settle for oats that have already been through the horse, they come a bit cheaper" From AL8001 at aol.com Tue May 4 13:53:01 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:53:01 -0400 Subject: Inside the 99 Chrysler 300M ECM/TCM Message-ID: For a upcoming project, I've purchased a 99 Chrysler 300M V6 3.5L engine/trans/computer. At some point in the future I would like to alter the speed limiter/rev limiter and possibly some other items. For general information I will post some of the major chips in the ECM and the Trans controll module. All of these numbers have shown up on the www.jjsurface.com web site, even though they don't show up on the chips manufacturers site. JJ surface states they will sell in quanities of 1 to 1,000,000. Perhaps they could help with other automotive chips. Engine Module PN 04606840AP It also has a serial number, wonder if it's also imbeded in the flash chip? Potted in clear/amber silicone. Device purpose Memory PN M28F220-90M3 Brand ST ( www.st.com) Package SO44 4M Flash memory, soldered to the board Device purpose Unknown PN 4745389 Brand ST Package Rectangular, pins on all sides ~ 18 pin X ~26 pin Shows up on the www.jjsurface.com site, but not on www.st.com Device Purpose CPU PN SC435409MFC16 (Copyright Chrysler 95) Brand Motorola Package Square, pins on all sides ~110 total Shows up on the www.jjsurface.com site but not on the search.motorola.com site Device Purpose Unknown PN 04812391AB Chry Corp97 H9833BRJN Brand H in a square, Harris ( www.semi.harris.com) Package Rectangular 28 pin surface mount It's listed on the JJ Surface site but not on the Harris site. Dosn't seem to be knock sensing, the KS IC on the Harris site has 20 pins. Harris seems to have a good automotive area http://www.semi.harris.com/auto/index.htm Trans Computer PN 04606936AD It also has a serial number, wonder if it's also imbeded in the flash chip? Potted in clear/amber silicone. Device purpose Memory PN M28F102-150XK3 Brand ST Package Square, pins on all sides PN says it is a PLCC44 package, but it is a soldered surface mount. I'll post more info as it becomes available. Harold From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 4 13:59:09 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:59:09 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: William T Wilson wrote: > > On Sun, 2 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > Cleaning the carbon deposits off of the piston isn't really all that > > > important because they just come right back when the engine runs the next > > > time. > > > > Sounds like a tire shop I went to once. "No need to clean the mud off > > the wheel before we balance it. It just gets muddy again anyway." > > Heh. No, that's different, because the carbon deposits don't affect the > operation of the engine. Really. Unless there's so much of it that it > causes dieseling. > > My suggestion is more akin to saying "no need to clean the mud off the > wheel before you rotate the tires." > > :} WHAT??? Carbon doesn't affect engine operation??? Where, pray tell, did you get that information? If you're sending an aluminum head out for a valve job, typically the gasket surface gets planed in the process. Now you leave the carbon on the pistons, knowing full well it wasn't dieseling before the head job. The head comes back with slightly smaller chambers and nice tight valves, and you bolt it on and go. If the engine's a high compression, late model type (like a Geo Metro at 13:1), there's a good chance you'll burn the exhaust valves the first time you head out on the highway. But it won't diesel. But hey, the engine this original question was about is a small block Chevy. Pretty durable, probably 8.5:1 compression, iron heads. No problems there, right? But maybe there's a bunch of carbon built up on numbers 6 and 8 cylinders from worn guides. So ya take the car out with your nice, tight valves, and get on it 'cause you know it's got more power. There's some rattling, not too much, probably just too much timing advance. So you play with the timing, get on it some more, play with the timing, but you end up with your total advance pretty low and not as much power as you expected. But it doesn't diesel, it's only two cylinders, and they're only showing problems at higher RPM, so the carbon can't be causing it. Must be, oh, a mystery. Sure the carbon comes back when you run the engine. But what you see during a tear down is an accumulation over a large period of time and after a fair amount of wear. Putting an engine back together like that is asking for trouble, and I would consider it a sign of laziness knowing how easily carbon buildup can be removed. Shannen From bearbvd at sni.net Tue May 4 14:04:48 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:04:48 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Scuse me-- Perhaps I misunderstood what was meant by a single rail system--the Jimmy's--a mid 1930's design-- hardly had an ecu! Greg >> Hi all > > The Bosch single rail system being introduced on >diesels uses a mechanical pump to generate a fuel >rail pressure of around 1800 bar. The injectors are >triggered like petrol injection injectors by a >signal from the ECU. > >--- Greg Hermann wrote: >> >A "puddle" of fuel in this context can mean a cloud >> of droplets in the port. >> >The shock wave that hits this breaks up the drops >> into smaller ones. Sure >> >it gets diluted, etc. but its the best we have for >> now and it does work >> >pretty well. The only way to inject atomized fuel >> in a short period of time >> >is with a mechanical injection pump except maybe >> the stuff used in single >> >rail diesels. >> >> Or with an air boost. >> >> Does anyone know what the single rail diesels use >> for >> >pressure and injectors? >> >> The injectors are directly above the chambers, and >> are actuated by an extra >> cam lobe/rocker arm. No idea what the pressure in >> the injector itself goes >> up to when it gets actuated--but HIGH--Probably >> hydraulic tappet style >> pressures. On a Cummins PT system (Pressure/Time) >> the fuel rail pressure >> varies with engine speed/ load, as this pressure is >> what determines how >> full the injectors get before getting activated by >> the cam. Up to maybe 300 >> psi in the rail. Changing the "button" in the >> Cummins fuel pump changes the >> pressure /speed output curve of the pump, and thus >> changes the amount of >> fuel injected at full load on a Cummins. (Not all >> Cummins B series >> (pick-up) engines have PT injection. This is 855, >> KT, and triple nickel >> stuff.) >> >> On Jimmys, there is a rack the length of the head >> which varies injector >> stroke, (adjusting the lash on the injector rockers >> and adjusting to >> equalize the strokes of the injectors is the source >> of the term "running >> the rack" or "running the overhead") and the fuel >> rail in the head is at >> relatively constant pressure, maybe 150 psi?? >> But--again, the actual >> injection pressure is on up there. >> >> Regards, Greg >> >> >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From Tedscj at aol.com Tue May 4 14:17:33 1999 From: Tedscj at aol.com (Tedscj at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:17:33 -0400 Subject: fuel line check valve reality check Message-ID: In a message dated 5/4/99, 2:13:32 AM, diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: <> The SII and SIII XJ6 uses valves that are both one-way and electric shut-off. I think they are $30 - $40 a piece new, and of course if you can find one in a junk yard that would be even better. They are located in the rear wheel well, next to the gas tank, and behind a shield. I think they are probably exactly what you need since you will still be able to maintain the ability to switch between tanks. I have tried to simplify the system in my SII but have found there is no way around using the electric valves. Otherwise you have problems with one tank emptying before the other and introducing air into the gas line. Ted From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Tue May 4 14:19:46 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:19:46 -0400 Subject: Inside the 99 Chrysler 300M ECM/TCM Message-ID: >Engine Module >PN 04606840AP >It also has a serial number, wonder if it's also imbeded in the flash chip? Yes it is... > >Device purpose Memory >PN M28F220-90M3 >Brand ST ( www.st.com) >Package SO44 >4M Flash memory, soldered to the board > >Device purpose Unknown >PN 4745389 >Brand ST >Package Rectangular, pins on all sides ~ 18 pin X ~26 pin >Shows up on the www.jjsurface.com site, but not on www.st.com > >Device Purpose CPU >PN SC435409MFC16 (Copyright Chrysler 95) >Brand Motorola >Package Square, pins on all sides ~110 total >Shows up on the www.jjsurface.com site but not on the search.motorola.com > site > Sounds like the MC68HC16... there are a few variants, one or two of which include OBD_II J1850 messaging capabilities >Device Purpose Unknown >PN 04812391AB Chry Corp97 > H9833BRJN >Brand H in a square, Harris ( www.semi.harris.com) >Package Rectangular 28 pin surface mount >It's listed on the JJ Surface site but not on the Harris site. Dosn't seem to >be knock sensing, the KS IC on the Harris site has 20 pins. Harris seems >to have a good automotive area >http://www.semi.harris.com/auto/index.htm This could also be a J1850 controller... HIP7030 series From Tedscj at aol.com Tue May 4 14:21:08 1999 From: Tedscj at aol.com (Tedscj at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:21:08 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: In a message dated 5/4/99, 9:51:47 AM, diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: <> I think '50s Prsche high performance engine with the OHC used them (Carrera?). From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 4 14:26:54 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:26:54 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: Matt S Bower wrote: > > GM went to it earlier than the LT1. If you look at late 80's IROC's > TA's and vettes they should all be reverse flowed. Nope. Not reverse flow. Only rev. flow V8s were LT1 and LT4 engines. Waterpump rotation was reverse of Vee belt models, but coolant flow was in block, out manifold like previous years. > The reason as I can > recall was something to do with trying to control the head temps for > emmisions. Reduces head temps allowing higher compression without detonation. Same effect can be achieved with ceramic coatings. >They were able to get around the need with the LS1 engine > and went back to the standard flow which I believe keeps the whole > system at a more uniform temp. Bottom line still is that the gains > weren't high enough for anyone else to fool with it. > > Thomas Martin wrote: > > > > Has anyone retorfitted an older V8 (non LT1) with reverse cooling? > > > > Is there any drawbacks to reverse cooling vs conventional? It is worth the > > mechanical rework to do? > > > > I am curious to see why GM did it on the LT1, and from what I have gathered, dropped > > it on the LS1. Knowing GM, there MUST have been a good reason. Who really knows GM? Shannen > > > > Thanks! > > Thomas Martin From soren at rio.com Tue May 4 14:34:50 1999 From: soren at rio.com (soren) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:34:50 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: >Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. >Says could be ready within 10 yrs. That's what they have been saying about fusion power for the last 30 years or so.... Soren From clive at problem.tantech.com Tue May 4 14:40:04 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:40:04 -0400 Subject: Fish Carbs Message-ID: > > > GOOD > > ^ > > / \ > > / \ > > / \ > > ------- > > CHEAP EASY > > Good one Jason... good one. I wonder how my twin-turbo 431 efi > stroker fits into this... > > unreliable > ^ > / \ > / \ > ----- > expensive complex > I think this is developing into a graphical representation of the Fangle Quotient. See the 2 dimensional representation of the 4 dimensional FQ quantification below. w Fangle-O-Meter Graphic Representation easy cheap | practical \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / unreliable--------------|--------------------good / | \ / | \ / | \ / | \ / | \ / | \ useless | difficult expensive | You will notice that we have 4 axis, which represent the major properties of good Fanglage. As we move in the positive direction on each axis we have the desirable properties of good Fanglage, and as we move in the other direction we have the undesirable properties, many government projects seem to end up in this region, "The Black Hole of Resources", whether intentionally or otherwise. The scales are limitless and measured in the following units: The u-g scale in Yugo-Rollses with 0 being approximately 1 Chevy. The e-c scale in money with 0 being a budget the average Fangler could afford, ie. cheaper than a mobile home in Ohio. The d-e scale in SHM-CDB (shade tree howls-can do blindfolded) with 0 requiring a moderate amount of attention, but no use of "magic words" or tools of destruction, ie. replacing a bolt on carburator setup, or adjusting valve lash. The u-p scale in GE-ME (government employees-mechanical engineers) with 0 being 1 7-11 night clerk. Can now give meaningful fanglage co-ordinates to all ouf our projects. As an example, Fred's EFI-383 project would come in about at Toyota, VCR, 4 SHMs, Marine Mechanic. Totally understandable units, that explain the workings of the projects in Fangler's terms. Clive Clive From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 4 14:46:22 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:46:22 -0400 Subject: CFM Questions Message-ID: Can't help ya with the CFM Calc Formula, sorry, However, a Stock 426 Hemi only flows between 300-400 cfm per runner and it was supposed to outflow ANYTHING... Good luck with your project... Do you have a web site which details your build up? ALSO, is it a single or dual turbo setup? Thanks! Todd....!! ---------- David Sagers wrote: > > Anyone know how to calculate CFM rates? I was talking to the shop that's > building the turbo set up for my chevy engine. He said that at 15 lbs of > boost each runner on a stock TPI will flow 600 cfm. I think the stock > runners are 1.25" But 600 cfm sounds really high for such a small tube, > even at 15 lbs of boost. > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 4 14:46:28 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:46:28 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: COOL DEAL! Thanks for sharing that info, haven't ever heard/read about stock roller bearing apps! Only Hig Dollar Race setups!! Good to know! LATER! Todd....!! ---------- James Montebello wrote: > > > What engines used roller bearings? What applications? > > Shannen > > A great many engines use roller bearings. The bottom ends > of most two-stroke engines are all roller bearings. > > A good many four-stroke motorcycle engines have also been made > using rolling-element bottom ends. Harleys use them, most > four-stroke singles, and quite a few large displacement fours > made by Suzuki and Kawasaki used rollers. Even on engines > with plain main and big end bearings, rollers are typically > used at the ends of the crankshaft, and in the gearboxes. > > Porsche made a few racing engines that used roller bearing > bottom ends in the '50s, and '60s. > > In all cases, the crankshafts are multiple pieces pressed > together around the bearings and one-piece rods. For very > high-stress operation, these bits would be welded together. > If the crank needed to be rebuilt, the weld was ground off, > and the parts pressed apart. > > Most of these engines are not low power applications, either. > The two-stroke GP machines made today produce in excess of > 400hp/liter unsupercharged. The big roller bearing Suzuki > and Kawasaki engines are very popular in drag-bike applications. > > james montebello From bearbvd at sni.net Tue May 4 14:51:14 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:51:14 -0400 Subject: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Message-ID: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Gary Derian >To: >Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 8:09 AM >Subject: Re: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) > > >> Wasn't one of these engines also used in the Checker Marathon before they >> switched to Chevy? >> >No, Checker used Continental flat heads, and an overhead valve version of >the same engine before switching to Chevy (1964). A few Chrysler engines >were also used. >> Gary Derian >> I think that's exactly what he was saying--but that the Continental they used was a LOT stronger than the 6-226 that Jeep used. 7 mains, forged crank, etc. Greg From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com Tue May 4 14:55:43 1999 From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:55:43 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: Another benefit of the reverse cooling was the dual thermostat setup that reduced the thermal shock to the engine during warm up. As far as I can tell the late LT1 is the only reverse cooled SBC. The reverse cooled engines had different block castings and water pumps and intake manifolds. > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt S Bower [SMTP:m.s.bower at cummins.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 7:24 AM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling? > > GM went to it earlier than the LT1. If you look at late 80's IROC's > TA's and vettes they should all be reverse flowed. The reason as I can > recall was something to do with trying to control the head temps for > emmisions. They were able to get around the need with the LS1 engine > and went back to the standard flow which I believe keeps the whole > system at a more uniform temp. Bottom line still is that the gains > weren't high enough for anyone else to fool with it. > > Thomas Martin wrote: > > > > Has anyone retorfitted an older V8 (non LT1) with reverse cooling? > > > > Is there any drawbacks to reverse cooling vs conventional? It is worth > the > > mechanical rework to do? > > > > I am curious to see why GM did it on the LT1, and from what I have > gathered, dropped > > it on the LS1. Knowing GM, there MUST have been a good reason. > > > > Thanks! > > Thomas Martin From bearbvd at sni.net Tue May 4 14:58:03 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:58:03 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Shannen Durphey >To: >Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 9:13 PM >Subject: Re: Transplant > > >> CLsnyder wrote: >> >> > > >> > Some engines were MADE with spinning inserts - bearing material on both >> > sides. Others use a loose cage rollers, with the rod being the outer >race, >> > and the crank the inner. Obviously the latter are NOT pressure lubed. >> What engines used roller bearings? What applications? >> Shannen >> >MOST 2 strokers use roller bearings, and some obscure 4 strokes - Porsche 2 liter carrera 4. I believe >a few high speed Euro motorcycle engines. A few OLD splash lubed engines >also used them. From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 4 15:01:15 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:01:15 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: alternative engines Ex-Wife had anti-gravity Broom 10+ years ago. Grumpy (Pardon, lack of efi content) > >Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > >Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > > That's what they have been saying about fusion power for the last 30 > years or so.... > > Soren > From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 4 15:01:26 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:01:26 -0400 Subject: OT max economy, engine stress Message-ID: Prob with putting high load on engine with low rpm is that the oil pressure is usually lower at lower rpm's thus smaller film of oil between crank and main journal bearings and rod and rod bearings and cam and cam bearings and rockers and rocker pedestals, etc... More chance for metal to metal contact....thus more chance for scuffing/scarring of metal and more chance for spinning bearings.... Heating the fuel DOES atomize the fuel better, however the hotter the mixture the less dense the mixture as well, it's a trade off and there's definitely a point at whcih heating the micture for atomization is detrimental to combustion. Also predetonation is more achievable at higher inlet temps, as I'm sure you already know... Later! Todd....!! ----------- Aaron Willis wrote: > > I have been trying the "floor-it-in-high" driving technique for a tank or > two, and results appear promising, so far. > My question for y'all is whether I ought to be concerned with what I have > always been told is very hard on an engine - asking it to do a lot of work > at very low RPM. My car doesn't really "like" to be lugged below about > 2000 RPM, depending on load. It shakes and shudders if I load it down to > heavily, although it does continue to pull. > Am I beating the bottom end out of the engine? > > Also curious about heating the fuel to improve economy. Worth half a > damn? Any words of encouragement or caution? > > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 4 15:03:41 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:03:41 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Couldn't one definition of an anti-gravity car be an 'Airplane'? Later! Todd....!! ------------ xxalexx at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > Will not need fuel injection or conventional fuel as we know it. > There is a photo of a car airborne, but did not say if prototype. > article in this issue of Discover Magazine. > alex From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Tue May 4 15:03:44 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:03:44 -0400 Subject: fuel line check valve reality check Message-ID: really ? I had no idea. thanks Ted I will check into this. -----Original Message----- From: Tedscj at aol.com [mailto:Tedscj at aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 7:17 AM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: fuel line check valve reality check In a message dated 5/4/99, 2:13:32 AM, diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: <> The SII and SIII XJ6 uses valves that are both one-way and electric shut-off. I think they are $30 - $40 a piece new, and of course if you can find one in a junk yard that would be even better. They are located in the rear wheel well, next to the gas tank, and behind a shield. I think they are probably exactly what you need since you will still be able to maintain the ability to switch between tanks. I have tried to simplify the system in my SII but have found there is no way around using the electric valves. Otherwise you have problems with one tank emptying before the other and introducing air into the gas line. Ted From cranford at texas.net Tue May 4 15:06:11 1999 From: cranford at texas.net (Stephen Cranford) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:06:11 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: Matt S Bower wrote: > > GM went to it earlier than the LT1. If you look at late 80's IROC's > TA's and vettes they should all be reverse flowed. The reason as I can > recall was something to do with trying to control the head temps for > emmisions. They were able to get around the need with the LS1 engine > and went back to the standard flow which I believe keeps the whole > system at a more uniform temp. Bottom line still is that the gains > weren't high enough for anyone else to fool with it. > Try again...The L98's in the C4's and 3rd gen F-Body's weren't reverse flow at all. The LT1 is GM's one and only reverse flow V8. Reverse flow cooling led to cylinder temp problems that GM thought wouldn't be a problem and that's why the LS1 isn't reverse flow. -- Stephen Cranford 92 RS Sapphire Blue w/Purple Pearl & White Stripes 86 IROC-Z28 Red w/black hood and NO interior..new toy! 89 GMC 4WD 1/2 ton Suburban http://austin.f-body.org/ http://cranford.home.texas.net From rah at horizon.hit.net Tue May 4 15:16:00 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:16:00 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: On Tue, 4 May 1999, Stephen Cranford wrote: > Matt S Bower wrote: > > > > GM went to it earlier than the LT1. If you look at late 80's IROC's > > TA's and vettes they should all be reverse flowed. The reason as I can > > recall was something to do with trying to control the head temps for > > emmisions. They were able to get around the need with the LS1 engine > > and went back to the standard flow which I believe keeps the whole > > system at a more uniform temp. Bottom line still is that the gains > > weren't high enough for anyone else to fool with it. > > > > Try again...The L98's in the C4's and 3rd gen F-Body's weren't reverse > flow at all. The LT1 is GM's one and only reverse flow V8. Reverse > flow cooling led to cylinder temp problems that GM thought wouldn't be a > problem and that's why the LS1 isn't reverse flow. What did the cylinder temp problems cause to happen? Roger From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 4 15:37:49 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:37:49 -0400 Subject: OT max economy, engine stress Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: William T Wilson To: Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 4:38 AM Subject: Re: OT max economy, engine stress "Lugging" an engine till it shutters, ain't good. The shutter is usually do to the tune-up being off. Many tuners don't allow for vey high load/low rpm, goes back to carb days. As a test of a calibration I sonsider it right if at 1,200 rpm or less I can hammer it and it pulls cleanly. The above is for a streetable engine, meaning say less than .5" 300d 0 lash. Some big cams, in heavy cars can't be grief. The "bad" thing about shutttering is the engine stops, and then resumes for a moment with no oil presssure. Bruce > > My question for y'all is whether I ought to be concerned with > > what I have always been told is very hard on an engine - asking it to > > do a lot of work at very low RPM. My car doesn't really "like" to be > > lugged below about 2000 RPM, depending on load. It shakes and > > shudders if I load it down to heavily, although it does continue to > > pull. > > If your engine is shuddering, you should downshift. > > Some engines (most diesels, GM Lx1 series V8) will pull like mad more or > less from idle. It really takes an effort to lug these engines. > Fortunately, the Trans Am and, I think, Camaro of recent years have an > "engine lugging solenoid" which forces you to shift into fourth gear at > about 20-25 mph. :} > > The 3-cylinder engine in my Geo Metro has the world's strangest torque > curve, and doesn't mind being lugged at all. For a small engine, this is > highly unusual, IMO. Nevertheless, it's ready to go at 1500 RPM. This > is, I'm sure, part of why it gets 45-50 MPG. :} > > > Am I beating the bottom end out of the engine? > > Well, you aren't doing it any good. Just don't lug the engine. It serves > no purpose and, although most modern engines will put up with it (and a > variety of other abuses) without too much complaint, you accomplish > nothing by doing it, so don't. > > > Also curious about heating the fuel to improve economy. Worth > > half a damn? Any words of encouragement or caution? > > Useless on fuel injected engine, IMO. May obtain some benefit on setup > where fuel is vaporized. Fuel injection system atomizes fuel and hot fuel > will do nothing except (marginally) increase risk of detonation. > From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 4 15:42:23 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:42:23 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter D. Hipson To: Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 7:25 AM Subject: Re: Transplant Used to be available for SBC Cam bearings Grumpy > There were (aftermarket) roller bearings available for VW air cooled > engines (probably still are). > > At 09:13 PM 5/3/99 -0400, you wrote: > >CLsnyder wrote: > > > >> > > >> Some engines were MADE with spinning inserts - bearing material on both > >> sides. Others use a loose cage rollers, with the rod being the outer race, > >> and the crank the inner. Obviously the latter are NOT pressure lubed. > >What engines used roller bearings? What applications? > >Shannen > > > > > > > Thanks, > Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) > 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon > From gbeard1 at nycap.rr.com Tue May 4 15:54:02 1999 From: gbeard1 at nycap.rr.com (Glen Beard) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 11:54:02 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: Thomas Martin wrote: > I am curious to see why GM did it on the LT1, and from what I have gathered, dropped > it on the LS1. Knowing GM, there MUST have been a good reason. They reverse cooled the LT1 to keep the intake charge cooler in an attempt to control detonation with 10.5:1 compression. With the LS1 (even though they run 10.8:1) being an all aluminum block and heads, GM decided not to reverse cool. That may have also been decided by the space available for the water pump. -- Glen Beard 95 T/A conv M6 Vortech open y-pipe ;) http://home.nycap.rr.com/gbeard1/TransAm.html From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 4 16:13:34 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:13:34 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: The LT1 was the first production reverse cooling from GM. The problem was getting the air out. Evans ran a Trans-Am car with reverse cooling for a few years. I think that work led GM to reverse cool the LT1. The conventional cooling system on GM engines leaves a lot to be desired. There have been several threads on this list devoted to it. The worst feature is poor circulation when the thermostat is closed which creates uneven temperatures when driving fast in very cold weather. Gary Derian > GM went to it earlier than the LT1. If you look at late 80's IROC's > TA's and vettes they should all be reverse flowed. The reason as I can > recall was something to do with trying to control the head temps for > emmisions. They were able to get around the need with the LS1 engine > and went back to the standard flow which I believe keeps the whole > system at a more uniform temp. Bottom line still is that the gains > weren't high enough for anyone else to fool with it. > > Thomas Martin wrote: > > > > Has anyone retorfitted an older V8 (non LT1) with reverse cooling? > > > > Is there any drawbacks to reverse cooling vs conventional? It is worth the > > mechanical rework to do? > > > > I am curious to see why GM did it on the LT1, and from what I have gathered, dropped > > it on the LS1. Knowing GM, there MUST have been a good reason. > > > > Thanks! > > Thomas Martin From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 4 16:13:37 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:13:37 -0400 Subject: OT max economy, engine stress Message-ID: Nearly WOT at low rpm is the key to good economy. It also helps if your fuel system stays lean and the cam timing is not too aggressive. This does load the rods and pistons though because their inertia cannot offset the gas pressure loads at low rpm. Be careful to avoid much boost at low rpm for the same reason. When I had an Eagle Talon, it vibrated when driven below 2000 rpm but that was because of the balance shaft tuning. Above 2000 it felt like a V-8. Gary Derian > > I have been trying the "floor-it-in-high" driving technique for a tank or > two, and results appear promising, so far. > My question for y'all is whether I ought to be concerned with what I have > always been told is very hard on an engine - asking it to do a lot of work > at very low RPM. My car doesn't really "like" to be lugged below about > 2000 RPM, depending on load. It shakes and shudders if I load it down to > heavily, although it does continue to pull. > Am I beating the bottom end out of the engine? > > Also curious about heating the fuel to improve economy. Worth half a > damn? Any words of encouragement or caution? > > > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 4 16:13:37 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:13:37 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: That was the Hirth roller cranks for the Porsche 356. If there are too many rod journals between the mains, it difficult to oil them. Ferrari F1 flat 12 engines from the mid 70's had only 5 main bearings and used rollers for the rods. Gary Derian Subject: Re: Transplant > There were (aftermarket) roller bearings available for VW air cooled > engines (probably still are). > > At 09:13 PM 5/3/99 -0400, you wrote: > >CLsnyder wrote: > > > >> > > >> Some engines were MADE with spinning inserts - bearing material on both > >> sides. Others use a loose cage rollers, with the rod being the outer race, > >> and the crank the inner. Obviously the latter are NOT pressure lubed. > >What engines used roller bearings? What applications? > >Shannen > > > > > > > Thanks, > Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) > 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 4 16:13:40 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:13:40 -0400 Subject: CFM Questions Message-ID: Talk of CFM is very confusing. When someone has a 600 CFM Holley, it means if flows 600 CFM at 1.5 in. Hg pressure drop. That same carb will flow 840 CFM at 3" and 350 CFM at 0.5". There is no absolute flow limit until the air reaches the speed of sound. So how much can a TPI runner flow? Those are known to be small and limit power above 4000 rpm. Sure you can boost the daylights out of it but that creates excess heat and backpressure. I think if you had 15 psi blowing through a TPI runner to atmosphere you would have really high flow but that is meaningless. You need flow in pulses and you need to have very low pressure drop. Most guys that build engines don't really know what goes on. Gary Derian > Anyone know how to calculate CFM rates? I was talking to the shop that's > building the turbo set up for my chevy engine. He said that at 15 lbs of > boost each runner on a stock TPI will flow 600 cfm. I think the stock > runners are 1.25" But 600 cfm sounds really high for such a small tube, > even at 15 lbs of boost. From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 4 16:13:44 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:13:44 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: Bingo! Cost is fundamental to the efficient allocation of resources. Sure a highly efficient engine can be built but if the overall cost of doing so is too high, the overall efficiency of that system will also be low. I am a great believer in Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand". Market systems do not always allocate resources in the most efficient manner but overall its better than any other alternative. That and the NOx problem. The really large engines that Jim Zurlo mentioned would have a really bad detonation problem without stratified charge. Detonation is a fundamental limit to the efficiency of a spark ignition engine. Diesels rule in large engines. If there is a lot of natural gas around, large engines can be built to use it if they have diesel like characteristics. Ergo the prechamber and stratified charge. Gary Derian > > > Gee Robert, if all these engines are so good, why aren't they used by > > anyone? Maybe they are in the same vault with the Fish carburetor. > Can anybody spell COST? As long as the bean-counters and stock prices have > more to say about automotive design than the engineers they will not see the > light of day. From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 4 16:13:50 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:13:50 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: It probably uses cold fusion as its power source. Gary Derian > Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > Will not need fuel injection or conventional fuel as we know it. > There is a photo of a car airborne, but did not say if prototype. > article in this issue of Discover Magazine. > alex From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 4 16:51:39 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:51:39 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Single rail is like EFI car engines have used for years. 1800 bar? That's 26,100 psi. Now that would be an injector that could withstand any rising rate regulator. Gary Derian > Scuse me-- > > Perhaps I misunderstood what was meant by a single rail system--the > Jimmy's--a mid 1930's design-- hardly had an ecu! > > Greg > > > >> Hi all > > > > The Bosch single rail system being introduced on > >diesels uses a mechanical pump to generate a fuel > >rail pressure of around 1800 bar. The injectors are > >triggered like petrol injection injectors by a > >signal from the ECU. From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 4 16:51:40 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:51:40 -0400 Subject: OT max economy, engine stress Message-ID: Oil pressure is only needed to get oil TO the bearing. Typically 10 psi per 1000 rpm is necessary. Engines with large diameter mains need more pressure to fight the centrifugal force. Once the oil is in the bearing, the load is WAY more than oil pressure. Properly designed crankshafts introduce oil to the part of the bearing with the lowest loads. If the crank is through drilled and oil fed from the end, 5 to 10 psi is enough for any rpm. Gary Derian > Prob with putting high load on engine with low rpm is that the oil > pressure is usually lower at lower rpm's thus smaller film of oil > between crank and main journal bearings and rod and rod bearings and cam > and cam bearings and rockers and rocker pedestals, etc... > > More chance for metal to metal contact....thus more chance for > scuffing/scarring of metal and more chance for spinning bearings.... > > Heating the fuel DOES atomize the fuel better, however the hotter the > mixture the less dense the mixture as well, it's a trade off and there's > definitely a point at whcih heating the micture for atomization is > detrimental to combustion. Also predetonation is more achievable at > higher inlet temps, as I'm sure you already know... > > Later! > > Todd....!! > From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 4 16:51:42 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:51:42 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: Roller bearings are good where it is difficult to oil but they do not have less friction, once they are moving, than plain journal bearings. In fact, many times plowing a roller through oil has more friction than a plain journal. Gary Derian > COOL DEAL! > > Thanks for sharing that info, haven't ever heard/read about stock roller > bearing apps! > > Only Hig Dollar Race setups!! > > Good to know! > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > > ---------- > > James Montebello wrote: > > > > > What engines used roller bearings? What applications? > > > Shannen > > > > A great many engines use roller bearings. The bottom ends > > of most two-stroke engines are all roller bearings. > > > > A good many four-stroke motorcycle engines have also been made > > using rolling-element bottom ends. Harleys use them, most > > four-stroke singles, and quite a few large displacement fours > > made by Suzuki and Kawasaki used rollers. Even on engines > > with plain main and big end bearings, rollers are typically > > used at the ends of the crankshaft, and in the gearboxes. > > > > Porsche made a few racing engines that used roller bearing > > bottom ends in the '50s, and '60s. > > > > In all cases, the crankshafts are multiple pieces pressed > > together around the bearings and one-piece rods. For very > > high-stress operation, these bits would be welded together. > > If the crank needed to be rebuilt, the weld was ground off, > > and the parts pressed apart. > > > > Most of these engines are not low power applications, either. > > The two-stroke GP machines made today produce in excess of > > 400hp/liter unsupercharged. The big roller bearing Suzuki > > and Kawasaki engines are very popular in drag-bike applications. > > > > james montebello From owly at mcn.net Tue May 4 17:10:09 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:10:09 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Roy: I find that number hard to believe if my conversion figure is correct 1 bar = 14.5 PSI (rounded). 26100 PSI........ You won't catch me working around one of those systems... a leak could easily be fatal! It that the system on Caterpillar I've heard about where a cracked line can cut put out a fuel stream that will cut steel. The Ford "Powerstroke" I've been told is a single rail system which has an oil pressure driven injector which is computer triggered. An extra oil pump supplies pressure to the injectors which use the oil pressure to create high injection pressures. I've never worked on the power stroke..... only the old 6.9 & 7.2 engines which used an ordinary rotary pump. New injectors for the Powerstroke are $500.00 each according to the local Ford people.... I suppose $4k for a set of injectors isn't so bad if you can afford a $40K pickup. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Roy To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 7:56 AM Subject: Re: atomization enhancement >> Hi all > > The Bosch single rail system being introduced on >diesels uses a mechanical pump to generate a fuel >rail pressure of around 1800 bar. The injectors are >triggered like petrol injection injectors by a >signal from the ECU. > >--- Greg Hermann wrote: >> >A "puddle" of fuel in this context can mean a cloud >> of droplets in the port. >> >The shock wave that hits this breaks up the drops >> into smaller ones. Sure >> >it gets diluted, etc. but its the best we have for >> now and it does work >> >pretty well. The only way to inject atomized fuel >> in a short period of time >> >is with a mechanical injection pump except maybe >> the stuff used in single >> >rail diesels. >> >> Or with an air boost. >> >> Does anyone know what the single rail diesels use >> for >> >pressure and injectors? >> >> The injectors are directly above the chambers, and >> are actuated by an extra >> cam lobe/rocker arm. No idea what the pressure in >> the injector itself goes >> up to when it gets actuated--but HIGH--Probably >> hydraulic tappet style >> pressures. On a Cummins PT system (Pressure/Time) >> the fuel rail pressure >> varies with engine speed/ load, as this pressure is >> what determines how >> full the injectors get before getting activated by >> the cam. Up to maybe 300 >> psi in the rail. Changing the "button" in the >> Cummins fuel pump changes the >> pressure /speed output curve of the pump, and thus >> changes the amount of >> fuel injected at full load on a Cummins. (Not all >> Cummins B series >> (pick-up) engines have PT injection. This is 855, >> KT, and triple nickel >> stuff.) >> >> On Jimmys, there is a rack the length of the head >> which varies injector >> stroke, (adjusting the lash on the injector rockers >> and adjusting to >> equalize the strokes of the injectors is the source >> of the term "running >> the rack" or "running the overhead") and the fuel >> rail in the head is at >> relatively constant pressure, maybe 150 psi?? >> But--again, the actual >> injection pressure is on up there. >> >> Regards, Greg >> >> >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > From m.s.bower at cummins.com Tue May 4 17:42:42 1999 From: m.s.bower at cummins.com (Matt S Bower) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:42:42 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Matt S Bower wrote: > > > > GM went to it earlier than the LT1. If you look at late 80's IROC's > > TA's and vettes they should all be reverse flowed. > Nope. Not reverse flow. Only rev. flow V8s were LT1 and LT4 > engines. Waterpump rotation was reverse of Vee belt models, but > coolant flow was in block, out manifold like previous years. > Yep, Screwed up there. I'll wake sometime today. Just hope that's the worst one I make today. Thanks. From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 4 17:44:23 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:44:23 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: > Couldn't one definition of an anti-gravity car be an 'Airplane'? Not really airplanes need atmosphere to generate lift Bashful > > Later! > > Todd....!! > > ------------ > > xxalexx at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > > Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > Will not need fuel injection or conventional fuel as we know it. > > There is a photo of a car airborne, but did not say if prototype. > > article in this issue of Discover Magazine. > > alex > From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 4 17:53:56 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 13:53:56 -0400 Subject: Fish Carbs Message-ID: This is so UNBELIEVABLY SIMPLE it's SCARY!! Thanx for the reference and charts! This amount of enlightment in ONE DAY just MAY be a bit much for my pinto bean brain to handle! NOW I must go to Jack-n the Box and get some taco's to feed the Pinto Bean for a brain.... LATER! Todd....!! Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > > > > > > GOOD > > > ^ > > > / \ > > > / \ > > > / \ > > > ------- > > > CHEAP EASY > > > > Good one Jason... good one. I wonder how my twin-turbo 431 efi > > stroker fits into this... > > > > unreliable > > ^ > > / \ > > / \ > > ----- > > expensive complex > > > > I think this is developing into a graphical representation of the > Fangle Quotient. See the 2 dimensional representation of the 4 dimensional > FQ quantification below. > w > Fangle-O-Meter Graphic Representation > > easy cheap | practical > \ | / > \ | / > \ | / > \ | / > \ | / > \ | / > \ | / > unreliable--------------|--------------------good > / | \ > / | \ > / | \ > / | \ > / | \ > / | \ > useless | difficult > expensive | > > You will notice that we have 4 axis, which represent the major properties of > good Fanglage. As we move in the positive direction on each axis we have the > desirable properties of good Fanglage, and as we move in the other direction > we have the undesirable properties, many government projects seem to end up in > this region, "The Black Hole of Resources", whether intentionally or otherwise. > > The scales are limitless and measured in the following units: > The u-g scale in Yugo-Rollses with 0 being approximately 1 Chevy. > The e-c scale in money with 0 being a budget the average Fangler could afford, > ie. cheaper than a mobile home in Ohio. > The d-e scale in SHM-CDB (shade tree howls-can do blindfolded) with 0 requiring > a moderate amount of attention, but no use of "magic words" or tools of > destruction, ie. replacing a bolt on carburator setup, or adjusting valve lash. > The u-p scale in GE-ME (government employees-mechanical engineers) with 0 > being 1 7-11 night clerk. > > Can now give meaningful fanglage co-ordinates to all ouf our projects. > As an example, Fred's EFI-383 project would come in about at > Toyota, VCR, 4 SHMs, Marine Mechanic. Totally understandable units, that explain > the workings of the projects in Fangler's terms. > > Clive > > Clive From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 4 18:35:53 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 14:35:53 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Shannen Durphey To: Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 12:48 AM Subject: Re: Injectors & harness Right, sy's use 6 Grumpy > Ok. Then the 4.3W and the Syclone don't share injectors. The W > engine has one injector connected to 6 poppet nozzles, each through a > hose. Looks a little like a deformed spider. > Shannen > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Shannen Durphey > > To: > > Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 10:02 PM > > Subject: Re: Injectors & harness > > > > The injectors I just bought out of a sy really look like the ones I put in > > the Buick GN fuel rails. > > Bruce > > > > > Wait, there's a catch. If this has the same injector as used in the > > > later 4.3l Vortech engine, it's got a different connector. > > > Barry, if the injector looks like a bug and is buried in the center of > > > a large, 2 piece manifold you can find similar parts in Astrovans and > > > S-10s with the VIN W engine. > > > Shannen > > > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > > > All GM TPI injectors use the same connector, as well as most ford. > > > > Pep boys might even have them. > > > > True Value does, but I don't have the number > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 > > GMC > > > > port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle > > use > > > > these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a > > > > Syclone or Typhoon @ my local wrecking yard....... > > > > > Thanks - Barry > > > > From eclark at hoser.com Tue May 4 19:41:31 1999 From: eclark at hoser.com (eclark at hoser.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:41:31 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: On Tue, 4 May 1999, Roger Heflin wrote: > > > On Tue, 4 May 1999, Stephen Cranford wrote: > > > > > Try again...The L98's in the C4's and 3rd gen F-Body's weren't reverse > > flow at all. The LT1 is GM's one and only reverse flow V8. Reverse > > flow cooling led to cylinder temp problems that GM thought wouldn't be a > > problem and that's why the LS1 isn't reverse flow. > > What did the cylinder temp problems cause to happen? > Detonation. Something about the design of the LS1 allows it to still run a high compression without the cylinder temps causing detonation. -Eric From bearbvd at sni.net Tue May 4 19:51:34 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:51:34 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: >Sure the carbon comes back when you run the engine. But what you see >during a tear down is an accumulation over a large period of time and >after a >fair amount of wear. Putting an engine back together like that is >asking for trouble, and I would consider it a sign of laziness knowing >how easily carbon buildup can be removed. > >Shannen AMEN, Shannen Greg From bearbvd at sni.net Tue May 4 19:58:39 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:58:39 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: >>Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. >>Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > > That's what they have been saying about fusion power for the last 30 >years or so.... And hey--don't forget the "Emulator"! Greg >Soren From orin at wolfenet.com Tue May 4 20:37:59 1999 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:37:59 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: > If your design calls for a single sided or double sided PC board, there is a > product I saw at a tradeshow a year or two ago that you can plot your board using > a special tonor to contact paper, then rub the pcboard onto the copper clad > board, then etch. > I'll see if I can find the brochure and get more information... I had saved it > because it would facilitate my being able to make one-offs. Since you posted the > pcboard routes on the ftp site... it might be a cheesy way of one making their > own boards. I assume the board is double sided with 8/10 mil traces Not something I would like to do with such a system. I can easily make single sided boards with 10 mil traces at home using the MG Chemicals UV-sensitive boards - the hardest part is drilling them! (I laser print to overhead projector slides, touch up by hand on a light box, expose the board using the cheapest flourescent fixture I could find with the 'correct' tube (a black light is supposed to work), develop in a weak sodium hydroxide solution and etch in ferric chloride.) Orin. From James.Simpson at Unisys.Com Tue May 4 20:45:27 1999 From: James.Simpson at Unisys.Com (Simpson, James H) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:45:27 -0400 Subject: Jeep 4.0 Liter MPI (circa 1987-1991) Message-ID: Hi, I have a 1987 Jeep Cherokee 4.0 Liter MPI engine installed in a 1982 Jeep CJ7. I have discovered that AMC used a Renault (Renix?) computer system in the 1987-1991 Cherokees, and that information on this computer system is, so far, impossible to obtain. I'm having some troubles starting the engine; it cranks for several seconds (15-30) before it starts, if it starts at all. I've been through all of the static tests (sensor resistance/function, fuel pressure, etc.) and everything looks OK. I've been looking for information on computer codes and commands with no success. Q. Does anyone have information on the Renix computer system? Q. Is it possible to retrofit a different computer system to this engine? Has anyone done this? I guess GM would be my first choice. Thanks for any help you might be able to give! Jim Simpson From Tony.Bryant at psc.fp.co.nz Tue May 4 20:47:41 1999 From: Tony.Bryant at psc.fp.co.nz (Tony Bryant) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:47:41 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: Date sent: Tue, 04 May 1999 07:24:21 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Organization: Xephic Technology To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: ECU7 EFI project plans Send reply to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Unfortunately, it is expensive to have a small quantity of PC boards made > > (close to $500), so I've been unable to move ahead until I can either find > > If your design calls for a single sided or double sided PC board, there is a > product I saw at a tradeshow a year or two ago that you can plot your board using > a special tonor to contact paper, then rub the pcboard onto the copper clad > board, then etch. > > I'll see if I can find the brochure and get more information... I had saved it > because it would facilitate my being able to make one-offs. Since you posted the > pcboard routes on the ftp site... it might be a cheesy way of one making their > own boards. > I've had good luck using photo etching, from laser prints onto transparency. Just did a double-sided board with a .65mm spacing QFP on it. Turned out pretty good. Takes a fair bit of practice and experimentation to get it right. From rah at horizon.hit.net Tue May 4 21:12:02 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:12:02 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: On Tue, 4 May 1999 eclark at hoser.com wrote: > On Tue, 4 May 1999, Roger Heflin wrote: > > > > > > > > > What did the cylinder temp problems cause to happen? > > > > Detonation. Something about the design of the LS1 allows it to still run > a high compression without the cylinder temps causing detonation. > I believe that something would be a Aluminum block. Roger From daskren at aqinc.com Tue May 4 21:46:32 1999 From: daskren at aqinc.com (Askren, David) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:46:32 -0400 Subject: Homebrew additional injector controller - need suggestions! Message-ID: I am attempting to design a build an additional injector controller to add 2 additional injectors to my 1992 Ford Probe GT. The car has the Mazda 2.2L Turbo engine. I would like to use a map sensor that could support 21 psi, so a 2.5 bar map would be ideal, correct? Or should I use a 3 bar? Does the 3 bar map support 1.5 or 2 bar above atmospheric? What does a 3 bar MAP read at 0 psi? Is it 2.5 volts? Should my controller fire the injectors simultaneously on each cylinder fire (they will be in the intake tract between the intercooler and throttle body)? I would like to be able to set the boost level at which the injectors begin to fire, say 9 psi, and have them ramp up the duty cycle untill 21 psi, my desired max boost level. They will fire based a signal from the cam position sensor. Any idea what the output of the CPS looks like? From what I can imagine, I shouldn't need to use a processor, as discrete should work fine. I will draw it up and put it on a page tommorow. Suggestions very welcome! Dave From nisse.honik at sodertalje.mail.telia.com Tue May 4 22:09:50 1999 From: nisse.honik at sodertalje.mail.telia.com (Nils Björkman) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:09:50 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: Hi Is it a complicated board with a lot of SMALL tracks, a lot of vias etc. Is it possible to use a doublesided pcb whitout thruplating (you have to solder some tracks on componentside) ? I have equipment to make souch pcb?s (no equipment to make throuplating). I haven?t or-cad. Mybe I can help you to make a couple of samples if you can use the abow type. In that case I need the layout in ex. PDF format or similar. (1:1 or other scale is ok) Nils Al Lipper skrev: > Marc, it is good to hear of your interest, as well as your experience with > th 80C552. It sounds like you've done some nice work with it. At the > present time, we have a relatively final version of the ECU7 schematic > (newer than the one on the web), as well as a completed PC board layout. > Unfortunately, it is expensive to have a small quantity of PC boards made > (close to $500), so I've been unable to move ahead until I can either find > a cheaper way to have them made, or find enough people to split the cost. > I'm planning to post the most recent version of ECU7 to the web, as soon as > I can get some more web space. The schematic and PCB were done with OrCAD > 386+, so if you have compatible software, I'd be happy to e-mail you the > original source files. > > We've been looking for someone with 80C552 experience for a while, so > hearing from you is very fortuitous. Even better, it sounds like you've > already done some of what we need. The first thing is the writing of a > .HEX loader that will allow an intel .HEX file received over the serial > port to be loaded into the 5v flash memory. The second thing is for the > old assembly routines (EFI02.ASM) that worked on ECU6, running on the Intel > 80C51GB to be converted to use the 552. The 80C51GB used PCA's where the > 552 has its own capture/compare timers. Also, the A/D converter read > routines need adaptation. It's really a rather simple file, and hopefully > the documentation is clear. Once we can get one of these built and > working, I expect progress can be swift. > > Thanks for all of your help, Marc - it's good to have you on the project. > > Al > efi at cardozo.org > > At 09:57 PM 5/3/99 +0200, you wrote: > >Hi All, > > > >With interest I read your page about your DIY-EFI. I was reading the > >revision 7 files and noticed you will be using the 80C552. Although I do not > >think these are best for EFI, I do think they will work well. I have made my > >own 80C552 board and it has some nice features. Like flash programming (on > >board), downloading .HEX files to the board for execution (without burning > >them in flash). I am very interested in EFI and have quite some knowledge in > >assembler programming the 80C552. I would be very interested in cooperating > >with you. If you are also interested, can you please mail me back with the > >status of revision 7 and a short to-do list ? > > > >Thanks in advance and keep up the good work > > > >Marc > >marc at vdvossen.nl > > > > > > From c95fsg at cs.umu.se Tue May 4 22:12:48 1999 From: c95fsg at cs.umu.se (Fredrik Skog) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:12:48 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Actually the numbers I have heard are used in the common-rail diesels are 800-1400 bars depending on make.... A lot of pressure that is for sure. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 Living and dying laughing and crying Once you have seen it you will never be the same Life in the fast lane is just how it seems Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean /MetallicA From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 4 22:36:02 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:36:02 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: The 6.0 liter version for trucks has an iron block. I think reverse cooling is only a minor improvement compared to just a basically well designed water flow path. Gary Derian > > > > > > What did the cylinder temp problems cause to happen? > > > > > > > Detonation. Something about the design of the LS1 allows it to still run > > a high compression without the cylinder temps causing detonation. > > > > I believe that something would be a Aluminum block. > > Roger From epylant at mail.utexas.edu Tue May 4 23:07:01 1999 From: epylant at mail.utexas.edu (Eddie Pylant) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:07:01 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in a Haltech F3 w/ harness? Message-ID: I've got one off my last project car that I no longer need- It's complete sans TPS, coolant temp, and intake air temp sensors, and the harness accommodates 8 injectors. I don't know what these things go for, but if your interested, email me at epylant at mail.utexas.edu with an offer. Eddie From ekuna at pin.co.nz Tue May 4 23:49:28 1999 From: ekuna at pin.co.nz (Ed Kunath) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:49:28 -0400 Subject: Beginner's Book Message-ID: Need an introductory book or two for automotive FI. Don't know a thing. I am a mech. engineer so I can handle the tech stuff. Which books do I buy first? From rah at horizon.hit.net Wed May 5 00:14:47 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:14:47 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: On Tue, 4 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > The 6.0 liter version for trucks has an iron block. I think reverse cooling > is only a minor improvement compared to just a basically well designed water > flow path. > Do the trucks with the iron blocks have the same compression or did GM change it? Roger From AL8001 at aol.com Wed May 5 00:28:45 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:28:45 -0400 Subject: More Info:Inside the 99 Chrysler 300M ECM/TCM Message-ID: Looked at more of the trans computer today. It is apparent that IC numbers in the form of 4XXXXXX are internal Chrysler, this is in keeping with Chryslers normal parts numbering system. Trans Computer PN 04606936AD It also has a serial number. Potted in clear/amber silicone. Device purpose Memory PN M28F102-150XK3 Brand ST Package Square, pins on all sides PN says it is a PLCC44 package, but it is a soldered through hole. Device purpose CPU PN SC424007MFC16 Brand Motorolla Package Square, pins on all sides ~110 total Device Purpose Unknown PN 4632863 G22DH9832 Brand ST Package Square, 44 pin through hole ~ 10 pins connect directly to the CPU Device purpose Unknown PN 4632863 M91H023 Brand ST Package Square, 28 pins through hole More info as becomes available Harold From mwichstr at online.no Wed May 5 00:52:47 1999 From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:52:47 -0400 Subject: valve job question Message-ID: Use a simple water injection into the engine a while before teardown.It will clean the carbon away. > > Heh. No, that's different, because the carbon deposits don't affect the > > operation of the engine. Really. Unless there's so much of it that it > > causes dieseling. From fparker at umich.edu Wed May 5 01:05:14 1999 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank F Parker) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 21:05:14 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: > The LT1 was the first production reverse cooling from GM. The problem was > getting the air out. Evans ran a Trans-Am car with reverse cooling for a > few years. I think that work led GM to reverse cool the LT1. > Yes, and I was a data engineer on a TranaAm car that was used for a number of tests. It works well BUT you need a higher flow pump, radiator capable of handling the higher flows etc. The REAL reason GM quit using reverse cooling is the lawsuit that Evans started against GM for using reverse cooling and not honoring his patents. GM lawers looked at it and said: lets limit our liability in case we lose and not make any more cars with reverse cooling. Last time I talked to Evans, suit still was pending. regards, frank parker From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 5 01:43:09 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 21:43:09 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: > I've had good luck using photo etching, from laser prints onto > transparency. Just did a double-sided board with a .65mm spacing > QFP on it. Turned out pretty good. Takes a fair bit of practice and > experimentation to get it right. never tried photo etching myself... paid others to do it, but my work has always been simpler in nature therefore the "radio shack" or equivilent kits have been good enough, using three trays (acid, base, and water wash), sorta like photography :) Can you enlighten me a little bit? I'd love to investigate this avenue more. --- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology "Leadership in IT" Bridgeport, CT 06606 Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com Voice: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 From RRauscher at nni.com Wed May 5 01:55:03 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 21:55:03 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Now Bruce, see what you've gone and done... I've got miller all over the keyboard, BobR... ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: alternative engines Ex-Wife had anti-gravity Broom 10+ years ago. Grumpy (Pardon, lack of efi content) > >Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > >Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > > That's what they have been saying about fusion power for the last 30 > years or so.... > > Soren > From gderian at oh.verio.com Wed May 5 01:57:51 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 21:57:51 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: I misspoke, all truck versions have iron blocks. The 6000 has iron heads, also. The 4800 has 9.6:1, the 5300 has 9.5:1 and the 6000 has 9.4:1. All use 87 octane. The carryover 4300 V-6 has 9.2:1. Gary Derian > > > On Tue, 4 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > > > The 6.0 liter version for trucks has an iron block. I think reverse cooling > > is only a minor improvement compared to just a basically well designed water > > flow path. > > > > Do the trucks with the iron blocks have the same compression or did GM > change it? > > Roger From owly at mcn.net Wed May 5 02:31:05 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:31:05 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Fredrik: Please tell me which common rail diesels use this kind of pressure so I can be sure to avoid them ;-)......... The only common rail diesels I am familiar with are the Cummins PT and the Detroit engines.... They use nowhere near this kind of pressure. I strongly doubt that the Ford Powerstroke uses much rail pressure either. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Fredrik Skog To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 5:07 PM Subject: Re: atomization enhancement Actually the numbers I have heard are used in the common-rail diesels are 800-1400 bars depending on make.... A lot of pressure that is for sure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 Living and dying laughing and crying Once you have seen it you will never be the same Life in the fast lane is just how it seems Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean /MetallicA From orin at wolfenet.com Wed May 5 02:39:31 1999 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:39:31 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: > > I've had good luck using photo etching, from laser prints onto > > transparency. Just did a double-sided board with a .65mm spacing > > QFP on it. Turned out pretty good. Takes a fair bit of practice and > > experimentation to get it right. > never tried photo etching myself... paid others to do it, but my work has always been > simpler in nature therefore the "radio shack" or equivilent kits have been good enough, > using three trays (acid, base, and water wash), sorta like photography :) > Can you enlighten me a little bit? I'd love to investigate this avenue more. Take a look at: http://www.mgchemicals.com/P2_Photochem.html This is the system I use, but I just bought their 'UV' tube, not the fitting and flimsy stand. The local prices I pay for the boards aren't cheap, but it's just too convenient. I don't clean the resist off the board before soldering - it stops oxidisation of the copper nicely. Once the board is built, isopropyl alcohol will remove both the flux and resist. No need for fancy solvents. Orin. From Mattpw at ozemail.com.au Wed May 5 02:41:18 1999 From: Mattpw at ozemail.com.au (Matt Tomlins) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:41:18 -0400 Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM Message-ID: Trevor, The 165 is the same as an 808 apart from having 1 extra chip to perform high speed serial communications. The Camaro application is a Mass Air Flow system, whereas the Commodore is MAP based. If you try to run the Camaro on the ASBX calibration, it will run, but in limp home mode. You need to use a MAP sensor for it to run properly. If you want to run the Camaro calibration, you will need to disable the VATS. This can be done via an external circuit, or disabled in the calibration (Much tidier solution). All of this informaion is in the DIY_EFI archeives. Having said all that, I have run a mates Camaro on an ASBX memcal. It ran quite well, but needed some modifications to the idle control area. If you need any more help, let me know Cheers Matt Tomlins ----- Original Message ----- From: Jackson, Trevor To: ; Sent: Tuesday, 4 May 1999 5:05 Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > I'm currently trying to help a friend get a 305 TPI engine running, but > without much success so far. I believe that the engine is from an 87 or 88 > Camero auto (bought from a wrecked car), the wiring loom is from a manual > Camero, and the ECM we have is from the Australian Holden Commodore (which > from what I've read from the archives is the 1227808). > > I understand that the '808 ecm is more or less equivalent to the '165 ecm, > and so we should be able to use it OK. The problem we have is with the > Memcals. We have the Memcal that came with the ecm, which is a ASBX 9285 > from the 307 engine that is used in the Commodores, and a Memcal from (we > think) a 89 Camero with a 305 TPI (EPROM AGYM 3493). > > As yet we have been able to get the engine running using the 89 Camero > Memcal, but it does run (not very well though) using the Memcal from the > Commodore. > > We think that the Memcal from the 89 Camero is not working because we do not > have a VATS signal to send to the ecm - I plan to build the circuit to > emulate that so that we can see if that is the problem. If this is the > problem, is the program/data from the AGYM 3493 EPROM suitable for this > engine, or do I need to get hold of a different EPROM image and program up > another EPROM? > > BTW, can anyone tell me what is the correct EPROM image for an 87/88 305 TPI > engine? > > I've only just discovered these mailing lists and am slowly making my way > through the archives. There is a mountain of info there - I just need to > find the relevant pieces. > > regards > > Trevor Jackson > > From Tony.Bryant at psc.fp.co.nz Wed May 5 02:43:38 1999 From: Tony.Bryant at psc.fp.co.nz (Tony Bryant) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:43:38 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: > > I've had good luck using photo etching, from laser prints onto > > transparency. Just did a double-sided board with a .65mm spacing > > QFP on it. Turned out pretty good. Takes a fair bit of practice and > > experimentation to get it right. > > never tried photo etching myself... paid others to do it, but my work has always been > simpler in nature therefore the "radio shack" or equivilent kits have been good enough, > using three trays (acid, base, and water wash), sorta like photography :) > You need a spray can of positive photoresist. Radio shack probably has it. You spray it on the clean board (two light coats). Cure it for 20 mins at about 140F (oven set as low as possible is good). Align your laser printed transparency on the board. Make sure the toner side is down or you loose the details. Sheet of picture frame glass over the top to press it down flat. Expose 4 inches under a flourescent tube for 30-60mins per side. UV lights or sunlight would be quicker. Develop in _very_ weak NaOH solution (1 tblsp per quart), until shiny copper shows through. Takes about 2-4 mins. Rinse and Etch using FeCl or amonnium persulfate. Rinse and clean resist off with alcohol or elbow grease. Not quick, but it works with practice. Getting to know how much light, developer strength and duration takes some experience. From bearbvd at sni.net Wed May 5 02:44:50 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:44:50 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: >> The LT1 was the first production reverse cooling from GM. The problem was >> getting the air out. Evans ran a Trans-Am car with reverse cooling for a >> few years. I think that work led GM to reverse cool the LT1. >> >Yes, and I was a data engineer on a TranaAm car that was used for a >number of tests. It works well BUT you need a higher flow pump, radiator >capable of handling the higher flows etc. > >The REAL reason GM quit using reverse cooling is the lawsuit that Evans >started against GM for using reverse cooling and not honoring his >patents. GM lawers looked at it and said: lets limit our liability in >case we lose and not make any more cars with reverse cooling. Last time >I talked to Evans, suit still was pending. Didn't Smokey do some work with reverse cooling before Evans did?? And how did the patent office ever give a patent on it if they looked at the coolant flow path on, say, an Alfa four?? Regards, Greg > >regards, > >frank parker From fraser at forbin.com Wed May 5 02:45:58 1999 From: fraser at forbin.com (Jennifer and Brock Fraser) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:45:58 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: > I find that number hard to believe if my conversion figure is > correct 1 bar = 14.5 PSI (rounded). 26100 PSI........ You won't > catch me working around one of those systems... a leak could easily be > fatal! It that the system on Caterpillar I've heard about where a > cracked line can cut put out a fuel stream that will cut steel. > The Ford "Powerstroke" I've been told is a single rail system > which has an oil pressure driven injector which is computer triggered. > An extra oil pump supplies pressure to the injectors which use the oil > pressure to create high injection pressures. I've never worked on the > power stroke..... only the old 6.9 & 7.2 engines which used an > ordinary rotary pump. New injectors for the Powerstroke are $500.00 > each according to the local Ford people.... I suppose $4k for a set of > injectors isn't so bad if you can afford a $40K pickup. Ahhh... It's a special day when the efi hot-rod discussion group starts talking about Diesel combustion and fuel systems. You CAN believe your ears here, folks. Common rail (this is what it's usually called, rather than "single rail") fuel systems can go as high as 1800 BAR (yes, that's around 26,500 psi!). An analogy was drawn by somebody else to the typical gasoline fuel injection system on most automobiles, and yes, it's the same idea. The extremely high pressures are commonly generated by a piston pump running at engine speed. And, as you guessed, the lines and rail have to be very beefy material. These injectors aren't cheap. Imagine an injector (typically 4-8 holes) that can withstand that pressure, and still react quicker than an automotive fuel injector. I've often wondered what would happen if you tried to squirt gasoline at these pressures. I'm not enough of a chemistry type to know how gasoline reacts at extremely high pressures. Even the lowest pressure Diesel systems used today have roughly 600 BAR operating pressures. Other designs you may have seen are "unit injectors" or "unit pumps". Unit injectors are either hydraulically assisted and electronically actuated (HEUI) or they are cam assisted and electronically actuated (EUI). Either way, the fuel is pressurized right at the injector as opposed to the common rail that has a supply pump that is commonly gear driven off the gear drive. Unit pumps are individual pumps, one for each cylinder, that are cam driven. It's much like EUI, but the pump is seperate from the injector and connected by a line. I'm sure that's more than you wanted to know about modern Diesel fuel systems. Now somebody try to postulate what would happen if you used one of these with gasoline... I'm a high-speed gas engine fan (at heart), but some days I can't help but smile when I see 850 lb-ft of torque at 1300 RPM out of 6.4L on 30 pounds of boost. Heck, 280HP at 2300RPM is no slouch, either. -Brock From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 5 02:50:07 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:50:07 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Hey, just think about what would have happened if I mentioned Mommy in law. She had the special slippers to go along with the broom Grumpy > Now Bruce, see what you've gone and done... I've > got miller all over the keyboard, > BobR... > Subject: Re: alternative engines > Ex-Wife had anti-gravity Broom 10+ years ago. > Grumpy > (Pardon, lack of efi content) > > >Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > > >Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > That's what they have been saying about fusion power for the last 30 > > years or so.... > > Soren From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 5 03:01:20 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:01:20 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Hermann To: Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 10:45 PM Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling? Ya but Smoke didn't patent it, as far as I've heard. There was a Circle track mag explaining it years ago..... Grumpy > >> The LT1 was the first production reverse cooling from GM. The problem was > >> getting the air out. Evans ran a Trans-Am car with reverse cooling for a > >> few years. I think that work led GM to reverse cool the LT1. > >> > >Yes, and I was a data engineer on a TranaAm car that was used for a > >number of tests. It works well BUT you need a higher flow pump, radiator > >capable of handling the higher flows etc. > > > >The REAL reason GM quit using reverse cooling is the lawsuit that Evans > >started against GM for using reverse cooling and not honoring his > >patents. GM lawers looked at it and said: lets limit our liability in > >case we lose and not make any more cars with reverse cooling. Last time > >I talked to Evans, suit still was pending. > > Didn't Smokey do some work with reverse cooling before Evans did?? > > And how did the patent office ever give a patent on it if they looked at > the coolant flow path on, say, an Alfa four?? > > Regards, Greg > > > >regards, > > > >frank parker > > From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 5 03:08:28 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:08:28 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: I was wondering about now if that many folks could make the same error, well, I'll let it be now. Thanks Brock Bruce > > I find that number hard to believe if my conversion figure is > > correct 1 bar = 14.5 PSI (rounded). 26100 PSI........ You won't > > catch me working around one of those systems... a leak could easily be > > fatal! It that the system on Caterpillar I've heard about where a > > cracked line can cut put out a fuel stream that will cut steel. > > The Ford "Powerstroke" I've been told is a single rail system > > which has an oil pressure driven injector which is computer triggered. > > An extra oil pump supplies pressure to the injectors which use the oil > > pressure to create high injection pressures. I've never worked on the > > power stroke..... only the old 6.9 & 7.2 engines which used an > > ordinary rotary pump. New injectors for the Powerstroke are $500.00 > > each according to the local Ford people.... I suppose $4k for a set of > > injectors isn't so bad if you can afford a $40K pickup. > > Ahhh... It's a special day when the efi hot-rod discussion group starts > talking about Diesel combustion and fuel systems. > > You CAN believe your ears here, folks. Common rail (this is what it's > usually called, rather than "single rail") fuel systems can go as high as > 1800 BAR (yes, that's around 26,500 psi!). An analogy was drawn by somebody > else to the typical gasoline fuel injection system on most automobiles, and > yes, it's the same idea. > > The extremely high pressures are commonly generated by a piston pump running > at engine speed. And, as you guessed, the lines and rail have to be very > beefy material. These injectors aren't cheap. Imagine an injector > (typically 4-8 holes) that can withstand that pressure, and still react > quicker than an automotive fuel injector. > > I've often wondered what would happen if you tried to squirt gasoline at > these pressures. I'm not enough of a chemistry type to know how gasoline > reacts at extremely high pressures. > > Even the lowest pressure Diesel systems used today have roughly 600 BAR > operating pressures. > > Other designs you may have seen are "unit injectors" or "unit pumps". Unit > injectors are either hydraulically assisted and electronically actuated > (HEUI) or they are cam assisted and electronically actuated (EUI). Either > way, the fuel is pressurized right at the injector as opposed to the common > rail that has a supply pump that is commonly gear driven off the gear drive. > Unit pumps are individual pumps, one for each cylinder, that are cam driven. > It's much like EUI, but the pump is seperate from the injector and connected > by a line. > > I'm sure that's more than you wanted to know about modern Diesel fuel > systems. Now somebody try to postulate what would happen if you used one of > these with gasoline... > > I'm a high-speed gas engine fan (at heart), but some days I can't help but > smile when I see 850 lb-ft of torque at 1300 RPM out of 6.4L on 30 pounds of > boost. Heck, 280HP at 2300RPM is no slouch, either. > > -Brock > > From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca Wed May 5 04:13:09 1999 From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:13:09 -0400 Subject: Jeep 4.0 Liter MPI (circa 1987-1991) Message-ID: Hi Jim I seem to remember a SAE article on the RENIX ecm.. Try a library that carries SAE archives gl:peter From quest100 at gte.net Wed May 5 04:55:11 1999 From: quest100 at gte.net (Fran and Bud) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:55:11 -0400 Subject: Beginner's Book Message-ID: I believe that "Fuel Injection - Installation, Performance Tuning, Modifications by Jeff Hartman, (Motorbooks International) would be a good starting point. I also like Automotive Fuel Injection Systems by Jan P. Norbye, (also Motorbooks International) Then this GM Training book is a winner. (copied from an earlier DIY-EFI post) >From: spence family >Subject: DIY-EFI References >"GM Fuel Injection Diagnosis" GM training publication 16009.10-6 (cost >$25)is a good reference for GM EFI information. This is a GM factory >training manual and is available to the public. >Order from: >MSX International >1425 Pacific Dr. >>Auburn Hills, MI 48326 >Phone (800) 393-4831 >Fax (248)377-1510 >The book was updated in 1998 so it covers the latest systems as well as >early TBI. This book has lots of "Good Stuff" and is specific to GM. >Includes sensor calibrations, specific engine information, theory of >operations, DIS systems, and actual numbers!. 200 pages of stuff! >Would be very helpful for DIY EFI's, or just understanding the way GM >does it. >They will send you a catalog for free! There are many other interesting >titles. They have both training manuals and instructor's guides for >each title.. I got the manual... All are in the $20 range. Good reading! Bud ---------- >From: Ed Kunath >To: >Subject: Beginner's Book >Date: Tue, May 4, 1999, 4:49 PM > >Need an introductory book or two for automotive FI. Don't know a thing. >I am a mech. engineer so I can handle the tech stuff. Which books do I >buy first? From thergen at svn.net Wed May 5 05:28:22 1999 From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:28:22 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: Check the "Toner Transfer System" from DynaArt Designs http://www.dynaart.com/E.DTF1.html "This specially coated paper is run through any laser printer, (or photocopier), like a regular piece of paper. ... The paper comes fully documented with everything you need to know to make PCB's immediately with just the use of a house-hold iron." I haven't tried it myself. Tom On Tue, 4 May 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Unfortunately, it is expensive to have a small quantity of PC boards made > > (close to $500), so I've been unable to move ahead until I can either find > > If your design calls for a single sided or double sided PC board, there is a > product I saw at a tradeshow a year or two ago that you can plot your board using > a special tonor to contact paper, then rub the pcboard onto the copper clad > board, then etch. > > I'll see if I can find the brochure and get more information... I had saved it > because it would facilitate my being able to make one-offs. Since you posted the > pcboard routes on the ftp site... it might be a cheesy way of one making their > own boards. > > I'll see what I can dig up. > > --- > > Frederic Breitwieser > > Xephic Technology > "Leadership in IT" > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com > Voice: (203) 372-2707 > Fax: (603) 372-1147 > > From trevor.jackson at dsto.defence.gov.au Wed May 5 09:04:36 1999 From: trevor.jackson at dsto.defence.gov.au (Jackson, Trevor) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 05:04:36 -0400 Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM Message-ID: Matt When I get time in the next few days I'll make up a circuit to disable the VATS. What I need to know is what PROM code is the correct one to use - I've been unable to find any reference to the AGYM3493 EPROM that we currently have. If I can get hold of the right data then I should be able to burn a new EPROM to use. Do you know what the correct EPROM version is? Trevor > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Tomlins [SMTP:Mattpw at ozemail.com.au] > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 12:00 PM > To: Jackson, Trevor; diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > > Trevor, > The 165 is the same as an 808 apart from having 1 extra chip to perform > high > speed serial communications. > The Camaro application is a Mass Air Flow system, whereas the Commodore is > MAP based. If you try to run the Camaro on the ASBX calibration, it will > run, but in limp home mode. You need to use a MAP sensor for it to run > properly. If you want to run the Camaro calibration, you will need to > disable the VATS. This can be done via an external circuit, or disabled in > the calibration (Much tidier solution). All of this informaion is in the > DIY_EFI archeives. Having said all that, I have run a mates Camaro on an > ASBX memcal. It ran quite well, but needed some modifications to the idle > control area. > > If you need any more help, let me know > Cheers > Matt Tomlins > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jackson, Trevor > To: ; > Sent: Tuesday, 4 May 1999 5:05 > Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > > > > I'm currently trying to help a friend get a 305 TPI engine running, but > > without much success so far. I believe that the engine is from an 87 or > 88 > > Camero auto (bought from a wrecked car), the wiring loom is from a > manual > > Camero, and the ECM we have is from the Australian Holden Commodore > (which > > from what I've read from the archives is the 1227808). > > > > I understand that the '808 ecm is more or less equivalent to the '165 > ecm, > > and so we should be able to use it OK. The problem we have is with the > > Memcals. We have the Memcal that came with the ecm, which is a ASBX 9285 > > from the 307 engine that is used in the Commodores, and a Memcal from > (we > > think) a 89 Camero with a 305 TPI (EPROM AGYM 3493). > > > > As yet we have been able to get the engine running using the 89 Camero > > Memcal, but it does run (not very well though) using the Memcal from the > > Commodore. > > > > We think that the Memcal from the 89 Camero is not working because we do > not > > have a VATS signal to send to the ecm - I plan to build the circuit to > > emulate that so that we can see if that is the problem. If this is the > > problem, is the program/data from the AGYM 3493 EPROM suitable for this > > engine, or do I need to get hold of a different EPROM image and program > up > > another EPROM? > > > > BTW, can anyone tell me what is the correct EPROM image for an 87/88 305 > TPI > > engine? > > > > I've only just discovered these mailing lists and am slowly making my > way > > through the archives. There is a mountain of info there - I just need to > > find the relevant pieces. > > > > regards > > > > Trevor Jackson > > > > From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Wed May 5 10:15:20 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 06:15:20 -0400 Subject: Fish Carbs Message-ID: -> Same reason as the valve in block L head "Flat Head" reigned supreme -> for 40 odd years. Just because it is very good doesn't make it cheap I doubt any of the OEMs saved much, if any, money with flathead motors vs. OHV. The required machining is about the same, except doing it all in the block instead of splitting it between the block and head(s) causes handling problems, and those flathead blocks were highly complex castings since the inlet and exhaust ports had to be accomodated in the block. Back in the 1930s and 1940s it was common for "pump" gas to be as low as 60 octane. The flatheads had a naturally low compression ratio, and the large squish area and high turbulence let them make more power on the gas *of the day* than most OHV designs. It wasn't until leaded gas became widely available in the late '40s that manufacturers started to abandon the flathead. The engineers of the old days weren't total morons. The stumbling block was the poor quality of available fuel. With crap gas, most of the advantages of overhead valves are negated. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Wed May 5 10:15:20 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 06:15:20 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: -> Ok. Then the 4.3W and the Syclone don't share injectors. The W -> engine has one injector connected to 6 poppet nozzles, each through a -> hose. Looks a little like a deformed spider. "Poppet nozzles"? Is there some sort of breakover valve involved? If so, how do they keep all the gas from going through the first poppet to unseat? That's why the Bosch K-Jet has a separate fuel pressure regulator for each injector. From f.melber at t-online.de Wed May 5 10:43:28 1999 From: f.melber at t-online.de (Florian Melber) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 06:43:28 -0400 Subject: Briggs&Stratton 5.5 HP Message-ID: Dear Chris, I live in germany and work since about 2 years on small single cylinder port injected natural gas engines (Briggs&Stratton 7.5 HP and Honda 6.5 HP). We have all necessary components like throttle bodies, lambda sensors, catalysts, temperature sensors, hall sensors, throttle position sensors etc. It works perfect. Our applications are indoor karts and generator sets. Our system would work as well with gasoline injection. However you'll need gasoline supply (pump, pressure regulator and injector). We developped our own injection management system. It runs perfectly, but unfortionately our software engineer was very unreliable, so that I decided to look for another reasonable injection system. The Haltech F9A system showed to work good for this application, allthough I'd wish it would be smaller. A problem we had, was to trigger the ECU. My plan was to use the signal from the prime side of the ignition coil, but it showed to be not that easy. If you do an osziloscope pattern from the signal, you'll se why. We got it done with the Honda engine, but had some problems with the Briggs&Stratton engines. Now I produce cheap and small hall sensors for this application as well as small temperature sensors. An other problem was to find suitable high pressure natural gas components (small cylinders, a precise pressure regulator, and a natural gas injector) Florian From c95fsg at cs.umu.se Wed May 5 11:27:30 1999 From: c95fsg at cs.umu.se (Fredrik Skog) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 07:27:30 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: On Thu, 6 May 1999, Howard Wilkinson wrote: I just looked this up. All the new german diesel engines use common-rail (BMW, Audi, Mercedes) and uses a pressures of approx 1350 bar. VW has a new diesel at 1.9 liter that uses one separate diesel pump/cyilinder and uses a pressure of 2050 bar. According to all these manufacturers the higher the pressure the better the combustion. Examples: BMW 530d : inline 6, 3 liters, 184HP/4000rpm, 390Nm/1750rpm Audi Tdi: V6, 2.5 liters, 150HP/4000rpm, 310 Nm/1500rpm VW 1.9 tdi: inline 4, 1.9 liters, 115HP, 285Nm/1900rpm All of these new diesels are wonderful to drive, you cant tell they are not gas engines except from the low rpm torque. Especialy the BMW diesel is awsome wich easily outperforms most gas cars. Bye! > Fredrik: > Please tell me which common rail diesels use this kind of pressure > so I can be sure to avoid them ;-)......... The only common rail > diesels I am familiar with are the Cummins PT and the Detroit > engines.... They use nowhere near this kind of pressure. I strongly > doubt that the Ford Powerstroke uses much rail pressure either. > H.W. > > >> Actually the numbers I have heard are used in the common-rail diesels >> are >> 800-1400 bars depending on make.... >> A lot of pressure that is for sure. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 From m.s.bower at cummins.com Wed May 5 13:07:50 1999 From: m.s.bower at cummins.com (Matt S Bower) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:07:50 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > Fredrik: > Please tell me which common rail diesels use this kind of pressure > so I can be sure to avoid them ;-)......... The only common rail > diesels I am familiar with are the Cummins PT and the Detroit > engines.... They use nowhere near this kind of pressure. I strongly > doubt that the Ford Powerstroke uses much rail pressure either. > H.W. I don't know about the PT, before I came to the motor works but most all of Cummins lines today don't whether rail or distribution pump won't open an injector until between 300 and 350 bar and the pressure still goes up from there. On the current dodge truck cummins deisel the injectors are pressure opened at that 300 or 350 bar and those fuel lines are about 1/4" od with a max id of 1.8mm. Have never heard of lines breaking but have heard we one early batch that had bad crimps on the flange that craked the flange. The ones like this that I saw were not putting out unruly sprays, just trickled out a nice sized puddle. I don't have the numbers about getting up the 1400 bar but I would say especially with the caps pump on the isc engine that that kind of pressure is probably right in line. From goflo at pacbell.net Wed May 5 13:09:45 1999 From: goflo at pacbell.net (goflo at pacbell.net) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:09:45 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: Okrasa and SPG made roller cranks for VW and Porsche. Jack Todd wrote: > Thanks for sharing that info, haven't ever heard/read about stock roller > bearing apps! From bearbvd at sni.net Wed May 5 13:12:49 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:12:49 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Greg Hermann >To: >Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 10:45 PM >Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling? > >Ya but Smoke didn't patent it, as far as I've heard. >There was a Circle track mag explaining it years ago..... >Grumpy Which would mean that Smokey and Circle Track put the idea into the public domain--so how in#@$$% come the patent office gave Evans a patent?? Greg > > >> >> The LT1 was the first production reverse cooling from GM. The problem >was >> >> getting the air out. Evans ran a Trans-Am car with reverse cooling for >a >> >> few years. I think that work led GM to reverse cool the LT1. >> >> >> >Yes, and I was a data engineer on a TranaAm car that was used for a >> >number of tests. It works well BUT you need a higher flow pump, radiator >> >capable of handling the higher flows etc. >> > >> >The REAL reason GM quit using reverse cooling is the lawsuit that Evans >> >started against GM for using reverse cooling and not honoring his >> >patents. GM lawers looked at it and said: lets limit our liability in >> >case we lose and not make any more cars with reverse cooling. Last time >> >I talked to Evans, suit still was pending. >> >> Didn't Smokey do some work with reverse cooling before Evans did?? >> >> And how did the patent office ever give a patent on it if they looked at >> the coolant flow path on, say, an Alfa four?? >> >> Regards, Greg >> > >> >regards, >> > >> >frank parker >> >> From James.Simpson at Unisys.Com Wed May 5 13:40:22 1999 From: James.Simpson at Unisys.Com (Simpson, James H) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:40:22 -0400 Subject: Jeep 4.0 Liter MPI (circa 1987-1991) Message-ID: Peter, Thanks for the reply. I have searched the SAE web site for "Renix" with zero finds. I'll check my local library system. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Peter Fenske [mailto:pfenske at bcit.bc.ca] Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 10:03 PM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Jeep 4.0 Liter MPI (circa 1987-1991) Hi Jim I seem to remember a SAE article on the RENIX ecm.. Try a library that carries SAE archives gl:peter From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Wed May 5 13:50:04 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:50:04 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: There have been recent reports being investigated of large fly wheels and levitating superconductors loosing mass. alex > It probably uses cold fusion as its power source. > > Gary Derian > > > > Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > > Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > Will not need fuel injection or conventional fuel as we know it. > > There is a photo of a car airborne, but did not say if prototype. > > article in this issue of Discover Magazine. > > alex > > > From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Wed May 5 14:02:37 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:02:37 -0400 Subject: Inside the 99 Chrysler 300M ECM/TCM Message-ID: > For a upcoming project, I've purchased a 99 Chrysler 300M V6 3.5L > engine/trans/computer. At some point in the future I would like to alter the > speed limiter/rev limiter and possibly some other items. > I will donate a ISO-9141-2 scan tool. You might need a CAN controller thou, or some other Chrysler protocol if these can be altered by bus messages. You will also need the message code. The software currently supports J1979 diagnostic messages. alex http://www.obd-2.com From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 5 15:12:16 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:12:16 -0400 Subject: OT max economy, engine stress Message-ID: Just FYI, I drove my uncles Viper Roadster a couple a years back. I drove it for about 30 mins to an hour, with my Dad in the car with me with a vid cam pointed at me most of the time... Anywho, I actualy shifted the car into 6th gear at under 30 MPH and floored it! It didn't diesel or shutter or anything bad, it was just a SUPER major D-O-G, I don't remember what rpm it was but you can guess that it was a TAD under 1,000!! Just FYI! NOT DIY_FI but plain old FYI (For Your Info) Sincerely!, Todd....!! -------- Bruce Plecan wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William T Wilson > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 4:38 AM > Subject: Re: OT max economy, engine stress > > "Lugging" an engine till it shutters, ain't good. The shutter is usually do > to the tune-up being off. Many tuners don't allow for vey high load/low > rpm, goes back to carb days. As a test of a calibration I sonsider it right > if at 1,200 rpm or less I can hammer it and it pulls cleanly. The above is > for a streetable engine, meaning say less than .5" 300d 0 lash. Some big > cams, in heavy cars can't be grief. > The "bad" thing about shutttering is the engine stops, and then resumes > for a moment with no oil presssure. > Bruce > > > > My question for y'all is whether I ought to be concerned with > > > what I have always been told is very hard on an engine - asking it to > > > do a lot of work at very low RPM. My car doesn't really "like" to be > > > lugged below about 2000 RPM, depending on load. It shakes and > > > shudders if I load it down to heavily, although it does continue to > > > pull. > > > > If your engine is shuddering, you should downshift. > > > > Some engines (most diesels, GM Lx1 series V8) will pull like mad more or > > less from idle. It really takes an effort to lug these engines. > > Fortunately, the Trans Am and, I think, Camaro of recent years have an > > "engine lugging solenoid" which forces you to shift into fourth gear at > > about 20-25 mph. :} > > > > The 3-cylinder engine in my Geo Metro has the world's strangest torque > > curve, and doesn't mind being lugged at all. For a small engine, this is > > highly unusual, IMO. Nevertheless, it's ready to go at 1500 RPM. This > > is, I'm sure, part of why it gets 45-50 MPG. :} > > > > > Am I beating the bottom end out of the engine? > > > > Well, you aren't doing it any good. Just don't lug the engine. It serves > > no purpose and, although most modern engines will put up with it (and a > > variety of other abuses) without too much complaint, you accomplish > > nothing by doing it, so don't. > > > > > Also curious about heating the fuel to improve economy. Worth > > > half a damn? Any words of encouragement or caution? > > > > Useless on fuel injected engine, IMO. May obtain some benefit on setup > > where fuel is vaporized. Fuel injection system atomizes fuel and hot fuel > > will do nothing except (marginally) increase risk of detonation. > > From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 5 15:12:19 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:12:19 -0400 Subject: OT max economy, engine stress Message-ID: In regards to the Statement about "Nearly WOT at low rpm is the key to good economy.....load the rods and pistons though because their inertia cannot offset the gas" If what you say is true, then wouldn't lightweight aluminum or alloy connecting rods as well as lightweight alloy pistons and pins help to offset the inertia prob you are referring to? Todd....!! -------- Gary Derian wrote: > > Nearly WOT at low rpm is the key to good economy. It also helps if your > fuel system stays lean and the cam timing is not too aggressive. This does > load the rods and pistons though because their inertia cannot offset the gas > pressure loads at low rpm. Be careful to avoid much boost at low rpm for > the same reason. > > When I had an Eagle Talon, it vibrated when driven below 2000 rpm but that > was because of the balance shaft tuning. Above 2000 it felt like a V-8. > > Gary Derian > > > > > I have been trying the "floor-it-in-high" driving technique for a tank or > > two, and results appear promising, so far. > > My question for y'all is whether I ought to be concerned with what I have > > always been told is very hard on an engine - asking it to do a lot of work > > at very low RPM. My car doesn't really "like" to be lugged below about > > 2000 RPM, depending on load. It shakes and shudders if I load it down to > > heavily, although it does continue to pull. > > Am I beating the bottom end out of the engine? > > > > Also curious about heating the fuel to improve economy. Worth half a > > damn? Any words of encouragement or caution? > > > > > > Aaron Willis > > ICQ #27386985 > > AOL IM: hemiyota > > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 5 15:12:24 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:12:24 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Your statment is only true if you accept that an atmosphere exists DUE TO GRAVITY, right? However the Airplane DOES produce antigravity symptoms, i.e. can move in the opposite direction of gravity.... Later! Todd....!! ----------------- Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > Couldn't one definition of an anti-gravity car be an 'Airplane'? > > Not really airplanes need atmosphere to generate lift > Bashful > > > > Later! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > ------------ > > > > xxalexx at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > > > Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > > > Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > > Will not need fuel injection or conventional fuel as we know it. > > > There is a photo of a car airborne, but did not say if prototype. > > > article in this issue of Discover Magazine. > > > alex > > From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 5 15:12:52 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:12:52 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Interestin Info Fraser!, Saw a Deisel Extended cab Dually run 16's at teh 1/4 track a couple a months ago, blew a LOT of black smoke, but really hauled patooty!! Made a ruckus off the line as well!! LATER! Todd....!! Jennifer and Brock Fraser wrote: > > > I find that number hard to believe if my conversion figure is > > correct 1 bar = 14.5 PSI (rounded). 26100 PSI........ You won't > > catch me working around one of those systems... a leak could easily be > > fatal! It that the system on Caterpillar I've heard about where a > > cracked line can cut put out a fuel stream that will cut steel. > > The Ford "Powerstroke" I've been told is a single rail system > > which has an oil pressure driven injector which is computer triggered. > > An extra oil pump supplies pressure to the injectors which use the oil > > pressure to create high injection pressures. I've never worked on the > > power stroke..... only the old 6.9 & 7.2 engines which used an > > ordinary rotary pump. New injectors for the Powerstroke are $500.00 > > each according to the local Ford people.... I suppose $4k for a set of > > injectors isn't so bad if you can afford a $40K pickup. > > Ahhh... It's a special day when the efi hot-rod discussion group starts > talking about Diesel combustion and fuel systems. > > You CAN believe your ears here, folks. Common rail (this is what it's > usually called, rather than "single rail") fuel systems can go as high as > 1800 BAR (yes, that's around 26,500 psi!). An analogy was drawn by somebody > else to the typical gasoline fuel injection system on most automobiles, and > yes, it's the same idea. > > The extremely high pressures are commonly generated by a piston pump running > at engine speed. And, as you guessed, the lines and rail have to be very > beefy material. These injectors aren't cheap. Imagine an injector > (typically 4-8 holes) that can withstand that pressure, and still react > quicker than an automotive fuel injector. > > I've often wondered what would happen if you tried to squirt gasoline at > these pressures. I'm not enough of a chemistry type to know how gasoline > reacts at extremely high pressures. > > Even the lowest pressure Diesel systems used today have roughly 600 BAR > operating pressures. > > Other designs you may have seen are "unit injectors" or "unit pumps". Unit > injectors are either hydraulically assisted and electronically actuated > (HEUI) or they are cam assisted and electronically actuated (EUI). Either > way, the fuel is pressurized right at the injector as opposed to the common > rail that has a supply pump that is commonly gear driven off the gear drive. > Unit pumps are individual pumps, one for each cylinder, that are cam driven. > It's much like EUI, but the pump is seperate from the injector and connected > by a line. > > I'm sure that's more than you wanted to know about modern Diesel fuel > systems. Now somebody try to postulate what would happen if you used one of > these with gasoline... > > I'm a high-speed gas engine fan (at heart), but some days I can't help but > smile when I see 850 lb-ft of torque at 1300 RPM out of 6.4L on 30 pounds of > boost. Heck, 280HP at 2300RPM is no slouch, either. > > -Brock From claresnyder at home.com Wed May 5 15:46:07 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:46:07 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Williams To: Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 4:16 PM Subject: Re: Injectors & harness > > -> Ok. Then the 4.3W and the Syclone don't share injectors. The W > -> engine has one injector connected to 6 poppet nozzles, each through a > -> hose. Looks a little like a deformed spider. > > "Poppet nozzles"? Is there some sort of breakover valve involved? If > so, how do they keep all the gas from going through the first poppet to > unseat? > > That's why the Bosch K-Jet has a separate fuel pressure regulator for > each injector. > > There is an "injector" for each cyl according to the information I had on the subject. They are all in one housing, with K-Jet style nozzles on the ends of the "spider-legs" From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 5 15:52:22 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:52:22 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Airplanes by definition, generate lift to fly. To generate lift takes atmosphere. The shuttle uses thrusters in space to fly since none of the moveable surfaces work without atmosphere. Gravity would in theory be immaterial. But, I've never heard of an atmosphere existing without gravity. Bashful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Your statment is only true if you accept that an atmosphere exists DUE > TO GRAVITY, right? > However the Airplane DOES produce antigravity symptoms, i.e. can move in > the opposite direction of gravity.... > Later! > Todd....!! > ----------------- > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > Couldn't one definition of an anti-gravity car be an 'Airplane'? > > Not really airplanes need atmosphere to generate lift > > Bashful > > > Later! > > > Todd....!! > > > ------------ > > > xxalexx at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > > > > Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > > > Will not need fuel injection or conventional fuel as we know it. > > > > There is a photo of a car airborne, but did not say if prototype. > > > > article in this issue of Discover Magazine. > > > > alex From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 5 16:01:30 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:01:30 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Hey Fred, Ya mentioned that: "According to all these manufacturers the higher the pressure the better the combustion." I'd like to add an additional note to what you mentioned, and that is that the higher pressures create better ATOMIZATION of the fuel, and thus create a finer/better air/fuel mixture, thus creating more power thru a more thorough combustion cycle.... LATER! Todd....!! Fredrik Skog wrote: > > On Thu, 6 May 1999, Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > I just looked this up. All the new german diesel engines use common-rail > (BMW, Audi, Mercedes) and uses a pressures of approx 1350 bar. > VW has a new diesel at 1.9 liter that uses one separate diesel > pump/cyilinder and uses a pressure of 2050 bar. According to all these > manufacturers the higher the pressure the better the combustion. > > Examples: > > BMW 530d : inline 6, 3 liters, 184HP/4000rpm, 390Nm/1750rpm > Audi Tdi: V6, 2.5 liters, 150HP/4000rpm, 310 Nm/1500rpm > VW 1.9 tdi: inline 4, 1.9 liters, 115HP, 285Nm/1900rpm > > All of these new diesels are wonderful to drive, you cant tell they are > not gas engines except from the low rpm torque. Especialy the BMW diesel > is awsome wich easily outperforms most gas cars. > > Bye! > > > Fredrik: > > Please tell me which common rail diesels use this kind of pressure > > so I can be sure to avoid them ;-)......... The only common rail > > diesels I am familiar with are the Cummins PT and the Detroit > > engines.... They use nowhere near this kind of pressure. I strongly > > doubt that the Ford Powerstroke uses much rail pressure either. > > H.W. > > > > > >> Actually the numbers I have heard are used in the common-rail diesels > >> are > >> 800-1400 bars depending on make.... > >> A lot of pressure that is for sure. > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University > > Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se > Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog > 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 > Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Wed May 5 16:06:21 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:06:21 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: -> GM went to it earlier than the LT1. If you look at late 80's IROC's -> TA's and vettes they should all be reverse flowed. '55-'58 Pontiac V8s were reverse flow. Chevrolet only did the LT1 and its variants. The motors you're talking about were L98 type and had conventional cooling no different from the '55 265 Chevy. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Wed May 5 16:07:02 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:07:02 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: -> Can anybody spell COST? As long as the bean-counters and stock prices -> have more to say about automotive design than the engineers they will -> not see the light of day. Cost is barely relevant in these days of $30,000+ cars. As long as they can keep their payments under $300, most Americans will pay on something all their life. From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca Wed May 5 17:32:45 1999 From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:32:45 -0400 Subject: Renix Message-ID: Hi All I did manage to find quite the article on the Fenix system developed by Renix Electronics It is SAE 840543 tnx all:peter From jamesm at talarian.com Wed May 5 17:56:33 1999 From: jamesm at talarian.com (James Montebello) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:56:33 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: > I just looked this up. All the new german diesel engines use > common-rail > (BMW, Audi, Mercedes) and uses a pressures of approx 1350 bar. > VW has a new diesel at 1.9 liter that uses one separate diesel > pump/cyilinder and uses a pressure of 2050 bar. According to all these > manufacturers the higher the pressure the better the combustion. 1350 BAR!?! 2050 BAR?!? 20,000psi and 30,000 psi? Tell me there's a missing decimal point, or a units mistake here. 13.5 and 20.5 bar sound more believable. james montebello From thergen at svn.net Wed May 5 18:09:51 1999 From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:09:51 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: On Wed, 5 May 1999, CLsnyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave Williams > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 4:16 PM > Subject: Re: Injectors & harness > > > > > > -> Ok. Then the 4.3W and the Syclone don't share injectors. The W > > -> engine has one injector connected to 6 poppet nozzles, each through a > > -> hose. Looks a little like a deformed spider. > > > > "Poppet nozzles"? Is there some sort of breakover valve involved? If > > so, how do they keep all the gas from going through the first poppet to > > unseat? > > > > That's why the Bosch K-Jet has a separate fuel pressure regulator for > > each injector. > > > > > There is an "injector" for each cyl according to the information I had on > the subject. They are all in one housing, with K-Jet style nozzles on the > ends of the "spider-legs" > Do you have any info on whether a single coil is used for all the "injectors" within the CPI (central port injector)? Thanks, Tom From bearbvd at sni.net Wed May 5 18:26:47 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:26:47 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: >Hey Fred, > >Ya mentioned that: >"According to all these manufacturers the higher the pressure the better >the combustion." > >I'd like to add an additional note to what you mentioned, and that is >that the higher pressures create better ATOMIZATION of the fuel, and >thus create a finer/better air/fuel mixture, thus creating more power >thru a more thorough combustion cycle.... > >LATER! > >Todd....!! > Gee--an echo!! Not to mention that the higher pressure makes for FASTER injection of the needed fuel, creating a cycle which approaches the burn characteristics of an Otto cycle (constant volume addition of heat, rather than constant pressure), thus improving efficiency. Greg From c95fsg at cs.umu.se Wed May 5 18:39:26 1999 From: c95fsg at cs.umu.se (Fredrik Skog) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:39:26 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: On Wed, 5 May 1999, James Montebello wrote: > 1350 BAR!?! 2050 BAR?!? > > 20,000psi and 30,000 psi? Tell me there's a missing decimal > point, or a units mistake here. 13.5 and 20.5 bar sound more > believable. > > james montebello > No there is nothing wrong with these figures. That is exactly the pressures the manufacturers have presented. They can differ a 100 bar up or down but they are in the ballpark. VW has said they use 2050 bar for their new diesel. Even old diesels use alot more than 20 bar...a few hundreds I think...and even the old Kugelfisher mechanical fuel injection used on the BMW 2002 in the 70's used approx 50 bar pressure to open the injectors...and that is a gasoline car. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 From orin at wolfenet.com Wed May 5 18:55:26 1999 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:55:26 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: > You need a spray can of positive photoresist. Radio shack > probably has it. You spray it on the clean board (two light coats). Anyone seen it recently? The precoated boards are expensive. though not so bad at: http://www.web-tronics.com/webtronics/printed-circuit-board-supplies-positive-photo-resist-pre-sensitized-pcbs.html > Cure it for 20 mins at about 140F (oven set as low as possible is > good). Align your laser printed transparency on the board. Make > sure the toner side is down or you loose the details. Sheet of > picture frame glass over the top to press it down flat. Expose 4 > inches under a flourescent tube for 30-60mins per side. UV lights Anyone tried a black light UV tube? I'd guess the exposure time will be a few minutes only. Orin. From tigers at bserv.com Wed May 5 18:56:03 1999 From: tigers at bserv.com (Bob Tom) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:56:03 -0400 Subject: Inside the 99 Chrysler 300M ECM/TCM Message-ID: At 09:49 AM 5/5/99 +0000, you wrote: >> For a upcoming project, I've purchased a 99 Chrysler 300M V6 3.5L >> engine/trans/computer. >> >I will donate a ISO-9141-2 scan tool. You might need a CAN >controller thou, or some other Chrysler protocol if these can be >altered by bus messages. You will also need the message code. The >software currently supports J1979 diagnostic messages. >alex >http://www.obd-2.com For my personal use only. Which ISO-9141-2 scan tool do you have? Are there other makes available? What is a CAN controller? TIA Bob Burlington, Ontario '97 CC Sport, 5.2L, 3.55, auto., 4x2 From c95fsg at cs.umu.se Wed May 5 19:10:26 1999 From: c95fsg at cs.umu.se (Fredrik Skog) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:10:26 -0400 Subject: Trigger wheel positioning Message-ID: If I want the trigger wheels first pulse to occur at 60 degrees BTDC on my 60-2 toothed crank trigger wheel, how am I supposed to line it up? Is it the center of the tooth that the sensor detects or is it the edge of it? Rising or falling? Each tooth on my wheel is approx 4 degrees wide so I want do this right or I will have the ignition offset by a few degrees :( If it matters I will probably use a design like the one Tim Drury used for his DDIS signal condition the sensor. And the microcontroller will sense a falling edge. Any inputs would be appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 From martin.easterbrook at virgin.net Wed May 5 19:12:53 1999 From: martin.easterbrook at virgin.net (Martin Easterbrook) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:12:53 -0400 Subject: Renix Message-ID: Thanks Peter, but how do I access SAE papers (I'm not a member)? Martin mailto:martin.easterbrook at virgin.net -----Original Message----- From: Peter Fenske [SMTP:pfenske at bcit.bc.ca] Sent: 05 May 1999 18:23 To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Renix Hi All I did manage to find quite the article on the Fenix system developed by Renix Electronics It is SAE 840543 tnx all:peter From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 5 19:38:08 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:38:08 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: That idea is intriguing to say the least! How may I ask, can ANY object which exists LOSE mass? How did they measrue this, where did you hear/read about this, I'd like to read the article/book/newsflash? PLEASE let me know? Thanks! Todd....!! xxalexx at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > There have been recent reports being investigated of large fly wheels > and levitating superconductors loosing mass. > alex > > It probably uses cold fusion as its power source. > > > > Gary Derian > > > > > > > Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > > > Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > > Will not need fuel injection or conventional fuel as we know it. > > > There is a photo of a car airborne, but did not say if prototype. > > > article in this issue of Discover Magazine. > > > alex > > > > > > From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 5 19:38:15 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:38:15 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: How about if ya had a HUGE donut shaped container, in space, and spun i REALLY fast so as to force the air to the outside of the donut, THEN fly an airplane within that 'SIMULATED' atmosphere? It would work... Now you've heard of an atmoshpere existing without gravity... But then you could also discuss what CAUSES/creates gravity, and that is mass.... Therefore, if there is mass then there is gravity.... One of the GOAL's of the airplane is to seperate itself from the ground... The other is to move from point to point while maintaining the first goal until point B is attained, right? In space, wings are basically useless, thus enters the rocket engine! The point i'm trying to make is basically mute at this point, I think I'm just blowing hot air on the net now, so I'll jsut be quiet now... Beam me up Scotty... What channel is Star trek on this time of day....... Lemme see... LATER! Todd....!! Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Airplanes by definition, generate lift to fly. To generate lift takes > atmosphere. > The shuttle uses thrusters in space to fly since none of the moveable > surfaces work without atmosphere. Gravity would in theory be immaterial. > But, I've never heard of an atmosphere existing without gravity. > Bashful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > Your statment is only true if you accept that an atmosphere exists DUE > > TO GRAVITY, right? > > However the Airplane DOES produce antigravity symptoms, i.e. can move in > > the opposite direction of gravity.... > > Later! > > Todd....!! > > ----------------- > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > Couldn't one definition of an anti-gravity car be an 'Airplane'? > > > Not really airplanes need atmosphere to generate lift > > > Bashful > > > > Later! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > ------------ > > > > xxalexx at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > > Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > > > > > Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > > > > Will not need fuel injection or conventional fuel as we know it. > > > > > There is a photo of a car airborne, but did not say if prototype. > > > > > article in this issue of Discover Magazine. > > > > > alex From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Wed May 5 20:05:56 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:05:56 -0400 Subject: Trigger wheel positioning Message-ID: At 09:10 PM 5/5/99 +0200, you wrote: > >If I want the trigger wheels first pulse to occur at 60 degrees BTDC on my >60-2 toothed crank trigger wheel, how am I supposed to line it up? >Is it the center of the tooth that the sensor detects or is it the edge of >it? Rising or falling? Each tooth on my wheel is approx 4 degrees wide so >I want do this right or I will have the ignition offset by a few degrees >:( > >If it matters I will probably use a design like the one Tim Drury used for >his DDIS signal condition the sensor. And the microcontroller will sense a >falling edge. Best bet is mount it where it is mechanically the best location and use software (firmware) to modify where exactly the reference pulse occurs. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From claresnyder at home.com Wed May 5 20:43:49 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:43:49 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection - Stratified Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Williams To: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 9:09 AM Subject: Re: Direct Injection - Stratified > > -> Can anybody spell COST? As long as the bean-counters and stock prices > -> have more to say about automotive design than the engineers they will > -> not see the light of day. > > Cost is barely relevant in these days of $30,000+ cars. > > As long as they can keep their payments under $300, most Americans will > pay on something all their life. > True, but the manufacturer will still chisel for the last 1/2 cent in manufacturing cost - even on a $30,000+ car. From claresnyder at home.com Wed May 5 20:54:32 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:54:32 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: James Montebello To: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 1:53 PM Subject: RE: atomization enhancement > > I just looked this up. All the new german diesel engines use > > common-rail > > (BMW, Audi, Mercedes) and uses a pressures of approx 1350 bar. > > VW has a new diesel at 1.9 liter that uses one separate diesel > > pump/cyilinder and uses a pressure of 2050 bar. According to all these > > manufacturers the higher the pressure the better the combustion. > > 1350 BAR!?! 2050 BAR?!? > > 20,000psi and 30,000 psi? Tell me there's a missing decimal > point, or a units mistake here. 13.5 and 20.5 bar sound more > believable. > > james montebello > Hey guys, we are talking RAIL pressure here, not injector pressure. On these camshaft or hydraulically operated injectors, rail pressure can be multiplied by a factor of several hundred to one for injection. I can't remember what make and model the engine was - I remember it was on a huge generator in Zambia - I think it MAY have been an old Cummins - anyway, it had a primary pump that ran about 10PSI, and a booster pump to about 150 PSI. That was rail pressure. Each cyl had its own "pump" in the injector, which popped at about 28,000 PSI. Let's not get TOO confused. On independent injector (distributor type) diesels like the Bosh, or Roosa Master, the injection pressure is around the 28,000 PSI - and that fluid pressure runs from the pump to the injector in those skinny little steel lines that look like brake lines. The tiny bore of the line leaves a pretty thick wall - which still flexes enough that a Piezo sensor clamped to the line can sense injection pulses to check injection timing and/or run a tach!! NEVER leave a bracket off on one of these lines as vibration can fatigue the line, causing breakage - and at 28,000 + psi diesel fuel can puncture skin from several feet away, and remove metal at a range of close to an inch. From claresnyder at home.com Wed May 5 20:57:36 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:57:36 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 2:09 PM Subject: Re: Injectors & harness > > > On Wed, 5 May 1999, CLsnyder wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dave Williams > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 4:16 PM > > Subject: Re: Injectors & harness > > > > > > > > > > -> Ok. Then the 4.3W and the Syclone don't share injectors. The W > > > -> engine has one injector connected to 6 poppet nozzles, each through a > > > -> hose. Looks a little like a deformed spider. > > > > > > "Poppet nozzles"? Is there some sort of breakover valve involved? If > > > so, how do they keep all the gas from going through the first poppet to > > > unseat? > > > > > > That's why the Bosch K-Jet has a separate fuel pressure regulator for > > > each injector. > > > > > > > > There is an "injector" for each cyl according to the information I had on > > the subject. They are all in one housing, with K-Jet style nozzles on the > > ends of the "spider-legs" > > > > Do you have any info on whether a single coil is used for all the > "injectors" within the CPI (central port injector)? > > Thanks, > Tom > I can't find the article right now, but I seem to remember there being more than one schema. Some batch fired the whole works - presumably with one coil. Some alternate batched - which would require at least 2 coils - and I think there was one with multiple (3 or more) coils - but don't quote me. > From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Wed May 5 22:44:07 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:44:07 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: -> Which would mean that Smokey and Circle Track put the idea into the -> public domain--so how in#@$$% come the patent office gave Evans a -> patent?? You can patent individual things, or you can patent a *combination* of previous things as a system. You might try IBM's patent site to see if there's a hit on MECA. No way to tell exactly what their patent covers until you see it. The US Patent Office is also notorious for granting patents that infringe on prior patents; it's the applicant's job to do the searching. If patents or prior art collide, it's court time, and the attorneys win. From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Wed May 5 22:55:26 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:55:26 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: At 02:22 PM 5/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >How about if ya had a HUGE donut shaped container, in space, and spun i >REALLY fast so as to force the air to the outside of the donut, THEN fly >an airplane within that 'SIMULATED' atmosphere? It would work... > >Now you've heard of an atmoshpere existing without gravity... Ha...ALMOST! Even I caught this one. I'm going to count that centrifugal force that threw the air to the outside of the donut as gravity in this example. Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Wed May 5 23:03:46 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:03:46 -0400 Subject: Inside the 99 Chrysler 300M ECM/TCM Message-ID: > At 09:49 AM 5/5/99 +0000, you wrote: > >> For a upcoming project, I've purchased a 99 Chrysler 300M V6 3.5L > >> engine/trans/computer. > >> > >I will donate a ISO-9141-2 scan tool. You might need a CAN > >controller thou, or some other Chrysler protocol if these can be > >altered by bus messages. You will also need the message code. The > >software currently supports J1979 diagnostic messages. > >alex > >http://www.obd-2.com > > For my personal use only. Which ISO-9141-2 scan tool do you > have? Are there other makes available? What is a CAN controller? > TIA Yes, it is a single use license, the one i made, For PC based there is carcomp at carcomp.com and EASE at obd2.com Control Area Network developed by Bosch for automotive communication in early 80's. Is SAE class C vehicle mutiplexing alex From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Wed May 5 23:03:48 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:03:48 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: I just threw out by MG etch tank, heater and bubbler. The FeCl is nasty, not something to keep in house. The landlord freaked when she saw that red carpet. After 2 years and alot of cleaning it stills has a red tint, still have some red splash marks on walls and red pants. I got some flex boards, that you just run thru a laser printer and etch, but have not tried. Article is in Nov. 97 of Electronics Now. I have heard of exposing in sun. According to Jan Axelson book. 300 watt quartz halogen headlight 275 watt sun lamp 15 watt black light any light source 350-425 nanometers There is alot of info on web, check newsgroup FAQ's Circuit Design in Central Point OR. made the lowest cost single sided boards I could find and all they need is a sketch Only problem is they take several months and there web site seems to be gone. I am going to try pcbmilling.com had problems with pcbexpress.com software but they have plated thru holes. alex > > You need a spray can of positive photoresist. Radio shack > > probably has it. You spray it on the clean board (two light coats). > > Anyone seen it recently? The precoated boards are expensive. > though not so bad at: > > http://www.web-tronics.com/webtronics/printed-circuit-board-supplies-positive-photo-resist-pre-sensitized-pcbs.html > > > Cure it for 20 mins at about 140F (oven set as low as possible is > > good). Align your laser printed transparency on the board. Make > > sure the toner side is down or you loose the details. Sheet of > > picture frame glass over the top to press it down flat. Expose 4 > > inches under a flourescent tube for 30-60mins per side. UV lights > > Anyone tried a black light UV tube? I'd guess the exposure time > will be a few minutes only. > > Orin. > > From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Wed May 5 23:03:52 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:03:52 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Check your local 7-11 or food stores public reading room for this issue of Discover Magazine. Also the sci news groups. alex > That idea is intriguing to say the least! > > How may I ask, can ANY object which exists LOSE mass? > > How did they measrue this, where did you hear/read about this, I'd like > to read the article/book/newsflash? > > PLEASE let me know? > > Thanks! > > Todd....!! > > xxalexx at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > There have been recent reports being investigated of large fly wheels > > and levitating superconductors loosing mass. > > alex > > > It probably uses cold fusion as its power source. > > > > > > Gary Derian > > > > > > > > > > Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > > > > Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > > > Will not need fuel injection or conventional fuel as we know it. > > > > There is a photo of a car airborne, but did not say if prototype. > > > > article in this issue of Discover Magazine. > > > > alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 5 23:21:24 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:21:24 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: Flip, Flip, Flip, repeated many times. Circle Track June 1990. reverse cooling article by S Y. Many more flippings, Sept 1990 first mention of Meca Evans cooling stuff, no patent or patent pending mentioned in their ad. Not claiming perfection in research, but from what I see, something is rotten Bruce > -> Which would mean that Smokey and Circle Track put the idea into the > -> public domain--so how in#@$$% come the patent office gave Evans a > -> patent?? > > You can patent individual things, or you can patent a *combination* of > previous things as a system. You might try IBM's patent site to see if > there's a hit on MECA. No way to tell exactly what their patent covers > until you see it. > > The US Patent Office is also notorious for granting patents that > infringe on prior patents; it's the applicant's job to do the searching. > If patents or prior art collide, it's court time, and the attorneys win. > > From fparker at umich.edu Wed May 5 23:47:40 1999 From: fparker at umich.edu (Frank F Parker) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:47:40 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling patents Message-ID: I lloked thru my Evans file and found some info on the Evans patents for aqueous and non-aqueous ( propylene glycol) cooling systems. The patents for PG systems are: 4,550,694 , 4,630,572 and 5,031,579. There is alot more to the patent for reverse flow cooling aqueous cooling systems than just reversing the flow. I have not read the patent but according to some literature, it is the understanding of the important role of vapor formation and recondensation which allowed Evans to solve problems not understood or solved by others. This, I believe, is why the patent was granted. The NUMBER is 5,255,636. It applies in the USA. That is why PG works so well if one does the whole system- ie : better, pump, radiator, etc etc. MUST get rid of all the water since any left will give the trouble causing vapor which allows high metal temps and detonation or esc retard etc etc regards, frank parker From trevor.jackson at dsto.defence.gov.au Thu May 6 00:05:28 1999 From: trevor.jackson at dsto.defence.gov.au (Jackson, Trevor) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:05:28 -0400 Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM - correction Message-ID: Oops, that should have been APYM3493 - I can't even read my own writing. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jackson, Trevor > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 6:35 PM > To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > Subject: RE: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > > Matt > > When I get time in the next few days I'll make up a circuit to disable the > VATS. What I need to know is what PROM code is the correct one to use - > I've > been unable to find any reference to the AGYM3493 EPROM that we currently > have. If I can get hold of the right data then I should be able to burn a > new EPROM to use. Do you know what the correct EPROM version is? > > Trevor > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Matt Tomlins [SMTP:Mattpw at ozemail.com.au] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 12:00 PM > > To: Jackson, Trevor; diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: Re: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > > > > Trevor, > > The 165 is the same as an 808 apart from having 1 extra chip to perform > > high > > speed serial communications. > > The Camaro application is a Mass Air Flow system, whereas the Commodore > is > > MAP based. If you try to run the Camaro on the ASBX calibration, it will > > run, but in limp home mode. You need to use a MAP sensor for it to run > > properly. If you want to run the Camaro calibration, you will need to > > disable the VATS. This can be done via an external circuit, or disabled > in > > the calibration (Much tidier solution). All of this informaion is in the > > DIY_EFI archeives. Having said all that, I have run a mates Camaro on an > > ASBX memcal. It ran quite well, but needed some modifications to the > idle > > control area. > > > > If you need any more help, let me know > > Cheers > > Matt Tomlins > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jackson, Trevor > > To: ; > > > Sent: Tuesday, 4 May 1999 5:05 > > Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > > > > > > > I'm currently trying to help a friend get a 305 TPI engine running, > but > > > without much success so far. I believe that the engine is from an 87 > or > > 88 > > > Camero auto (bought from a wrecked car), the wiring loom is from a > > manual > > > Camero, and the ECM we have is from the Australian Holden Commodore > > (which > > > from what I've read from the archives is the 1227808). > > > > > > I understand that the '808 ecm is more or less equivalent to the '165 > > ecm, > > > and so we should be able to use it OK. The problem we have is with the > > > Memcals. We have the Memcal that came with the ecm, which is a ASBX > 9285 > > > from the 307 engine that is used in the Commodores, and a Memcal from > > (we > > > think) a 89 Camero with a 305 TPI (EPROM AGYM 3493). > > > > > > As yet we have been able to get the engine running using the 89 Camero > > > Memcal, but it does run (not very well though) using the Memcal from > the > > > Commodore. > > > > > > We think that the Memcal from the 89 Camero is not working because we > do > > not > > > have a VATS signal to send to the ecm - I plan to build the circuit to > > > emulate that so that we can see if that is the problem. If this is the > > > problem, is the program/data from the AGYM 3493 EPROM suitable for > this > > > engine, or do I need to get hold of a different EPROM image and > program > > up > > > another EPROM? > > > > > > BTW, can anyone tell me what is the correct EPROM image for an 87/88 > 305 > > TPI > > > engine? > > > > > > I've only just discovered these mailing lists and am slowly making my > > way > > > through the archives. There is a mountain of info there - I just need > to > > > find the relevant pieces. > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Trevor Jackson > > > > > > From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 6 00:25:06 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:25:06 -0400 Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM - correction Message-ID: Your asking for a Broadcast code? (If so, what tranny?). You need a VATS signal generator circuit? (If so mail me off list and I'll send it to you as an attachment). OK, now what's the question?, I'm getting ADD from trying to follow this. Grumpy > Oops, that should have been APYM3493 - I can't even read my own writing. > > From: Jackson, Trevor > > Subject: RE: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > > Matt > > When I get time in the next few days I'll make up a circuit to disable the > > VATS. What I need to know is what PROM code is the correct one to use - > > I've > > been unable to find any reference to the AGYM3493 EPROM that we currently > > have. If I can get hold of the right data then I should be able to burn a > > new EPROM to use. Do you know what the correct EPROM version is? > > Trevor > > > From: Matt Tomlins [SMTP:Mattpw at ozemail.com.au] > > > To: Jackson, Trevor; diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > Subject: Re: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > > > Trevor, > > > The 165 is the same as an 808 apart from having 1 extra chip to perform > > > high > > > speed serial communications. > > > The Camaro application is a Mass Air Flow system, whereas the Commodore > > is > > > MAP based. If you try to run the Camaro on the ASBX calibration, it will > > > run, but in limp home mode. You need to use a MAP sensor for it to run > > > properly. If you want to run the Camaro calibration, you will need to > > > disable the VATS. This can be done via an external circuit, or disabled > > in > > > the calibration (Much tidier solution). All of this informaion is in the > > > DIY_EFI archeives. Having said all that, I have run a mates Camaro on an > > > ASBX memcal. It ran quite well, but needed some modifications to the > > idle > > > control area. > > > If you need any more help, let me know > > > Cheers > > > Matt Tomlins > > > From: Jackson, Trevor > > > Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > > > > I'm currently trying to help a friend get a 305 TPI engine running, > > but > > > > without much success so far. I believe that the engine is from an 87 > > or > > > 88 > > > > Camero auto (bought from a wrecked car), the wiring loom is from a > > > manual > > > > Camero, and the ECM we have is from the Australian Holden Commodore > > > (which > > > > from what I've read from the archives is the 1227808). > > > > I understand that the '808 ecm is more or less equivalent to the '165 > > > ecm, > > > > and so we should be able to use it OK. The problem we have is with the > > > > Memcals. We have the Memcal that came with the ecm, which is a ASBX > > 9285 > > > > from the 307 engine that is used in the Commodores, and a Memcal from > > > (we > > > > think) a 89 Camero with a 305 TPI (EPROM AGYM 3493). > > > > As yet we have been able to get the engine running using the 89 Camero > > > > Memcal, but it does run (not very well though) using the Memcal from > > the > > > > Commodore. > > > > We think that the Memcal from the 89 Camero is not working because we > > do > > > not > > > > have a VATS signal to send to the ecm - I plan to build the circuit to > > > > emulate that so that we can see if that is the problem. If this is the > > > > problem, is the program/data from the AGYM 3493 EPROM suitable for > > this > > > > engine, or do I need to get hold of a different EPROM image and > > program > > > up > > > > another EPROM? > > > > BTW, can anyone tell me what is the correct EPROM image for an 87/88 > > 305 > > > TPI > > > > engine? > > > > I've only just discovered these mailing lists and am slowly making my > > > way > > > > through the archives. There is a mountain of info there - I just need > > to > > > > find the relevant pieces. > > > > regards > > > > Trevor Jackson From cosmic.ray at juno.com Thu May 6 00:30:36 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:30:36 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: >How may I ask, can ANY object which exists LOSE mass? I lose mass by eating less and exercising more. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From cosmic.ray at juno.com Thu May 6 00:30:51 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:30:51 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: I have never been exposed to this high-tech stuff. I do know someone who owns a twelve-cylinder broom, however. I never got close enough to see if it has EFI ;-) On Tue, 4 May 1999 22:50:34 -0400 "Bruce Plecan" writes: >Hey, just think about what would have happened if I mentioned Mommy in >law. >She had the special slippers to go along with the broom >Grumpy > >> Now Bruce, see what you've gone and done... I've >> got miller all over the keyboard, >> BobR... >> Subject: Re: alternative engines >> Ex-Wife had anti-gravity Broom 10+ years ago. >> Grumpy >> (Pardon, lack of efi content) >> > >Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. >> > >Says could be ready within 10 yrs. >> > That's what they have been saying about fusion power for the >last 30 >> > years or so.... >> > Soren > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From rah at horizon.hit.net Thu May 6 00:45:44 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:45:44 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: On Wed, 5 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > Flip, Flip, Flip, repeated many times. > Circle Track June 1990. reverse cooling article by S Y. > Many more flippings, > Sept 1990 first mention of Meca Evans cooling stuff, no patent or patent > pending mentioned in their ad. > Not claiming perfection in research, but from what I see, something is > rotten > Bruce > > As simple as reversing the water is in the block (as an idea) I am sure someone tried it long before 1990, the only question is did they publish enough to invalidate the current patent. Roger From sfeaver at cgocable.net Thu May 6 01:47:21 1999 From: sfeaver at cgocable.net (Scott Feaver) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 21:47:21 -0400 Subject: 730edit program Message-ID: How are you making out with this? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Squash > Sent: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:16 PM > To: diy efi > Subject: 730edit program > > > I've begun work on the 730 AUJP editor. > > If you would like a copy of the VERY immature version, > e-mail me. I'll be posting updates on a website soon. > > I only have the spark table section complete at this > time. I should have all the VE and the high-end spark > done this weekend. > > As for ALL of the rest of the switches and tables, i > plan on adding them all over the next week or 2. > > The biggest challenge for me is converting the data to > something readable (i.e. 39H to 20 degrees advance). > > See ya > > Andy > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From shannen at grolen.com Thu May 6 02:39:48 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 22:39:48 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: Dave Williams wrote: > > -> Ok. Then the 4.3W and the Syclone don't share injectors. The W > -> engine has one injector connected to 6 poppet nozzles, each through a > -> hose. Looks a little like a deformed spider. > > "Poppet nozzles"? Is there some sort of breakover valve involved? If > so, how do they keep all the gas from going through the first poppet to > unseat? > > That's why the Bosch K-Jet has a separate fuel pressure regulator for > each injector. > 55 psi opens the valve in the nozzles. The injector "connects" the poppets to the feed line, and fuel pump pressure opens the valves. Pressure is regulated after the injector to max of 65psi (IIRC). These systems are pretty particular about minimum pressure requirements. If pressure doesn't rise above 53psi, you've almost always got a no-start. Hope the description works. Think of the plumbing like a single injector TBI system, with the injector at regulated pressure. The poppets, connected to the injector, require a minimum pressure to open. Injector opens, pressure opens poppet valves, fuel's squirted. Shannen From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 6 03:11:41 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 23:11:41 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling patents Message-ID: >I lloked thru my Evans file and found some info on the Evans patents for >aqueous and non-aqueous ( propylene glycol) cooling systems. The patents >for PG systems are: 4,550,694 , 4,630,572 and 5,031,579. > >There is alot more to the patent for reverse flow cooling aqueous >cooling systems than just reversing the flow. I have not read the >patent but according to some literature, it is the understanding of the >important role of vapor formation and recondensation which allowed Evans >to solve problems not understood or solved by others. This, I believe, >is why the patent was granted. The NUMBER is 5,255,636. It applies in >the USA. > >That is why PG works so well if one does the whole system- ie : better, >pump, radiator, etc etc. MUST get rid of all the water since any left >will give the trouble causing vapor which allows high metal temps and >detonation or esc retard etc etc > >regards, > >frank parker Well--the trouble is that the vapor over a glycol (either one) water solution condenses at a significantly lower temp than the temp of the liquid--basically because the vapor has a higher percentage of water (the lower boiling component of the solution) in it than the solution does. Same principal as what goes on in a fractional distillation tower to make it work. The difference between the boiling temp and the condensing temp is greatest for glycol/water solutions at about a 50/50 mixture. What that means is--that the little nucleate boiling bubbles have to travel further out into the liquid stream in the water jacket before they condense. This is hardly new science or technology--it is at least as old as absorbtion refrigeration cycles and fractionating towers. I am still kind of astounded that Evans was able to get a patent on it! And the liquid pumping horsepower to get the same cooling effect with 100% Glycol is pretty astoundingly higher than what is required with water. Regards, Greg From shannen at grolen.com Thu May 6 03:12:08 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 23:12:08 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: Frank F Parker wrote: > > > The LT1 was the first production reverse cooling from GM. The problem was > > getting the air out. Evans ran a Trans-Am car with reverse cooling for a > > few years. I think that work led GM to reverse cool the LT1. > > > Yes, and I was a data engineer on a TranaAm car that was used for a > number of tests. It works well BUT you need a higher flow pump, radiator > capable of handling the higher flows etc. > > The REAL reason GM quit using reverse cooling is the lawsuit that Evans > started against GM for using reverse cooling and not honoring his > patents. GM lawers looked at it and said: lets limit our liability in > case we lose and not make any more cars with reverse cooling. Last time > I talked to Evans, suit still was pending. > > regards, > > frank parker Looking up "reverse flow and LT1" on the internet and should find reports about this case, if anyone's interested. Shannen From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 6 03:44:53 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 23:44:53 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: >On Wed, 5 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > >> Flip, Flip, Flip, repeated many times. >> Circle Track June 1990. reverse cooling article by S Y. >> Many more flippings, >> Sept 1990 first mention of Meca Evans cooling stuff, no patent or patent >> pending mentioned in their ad. >> Not claiming perfection in research, but from what I see, something is >> rotten >> Bruce >> >> > >As simple as reversing the water is in the block (as an idea) I am >sure someone tried it long before 1990, the only question is did they >publish enough to invalidate the current patent. > > Roger Any publication, or sale of a device to the public is enough to put it into the public domain after one year. Greg From shannen at grolen.com Thu May 6 03:45:08 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 23:45:08 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling? Message-ID: Dave Williams wrote: > > -> GM went to it earlier than the LT1. If you look at late 80's IROC's > -> TA's and vettes they should all be reverse flowed. > > '55-'58 Pontiac V8s were reverse flow. Chevrolet only did the LT1 and > its variants. The motors you're talking about were L98 type and had > conventional cooling no different from the '55 265 Chevy. Any external tell-tales? Friend's got a 55 Pontiac w/V8 to look at. True for Jimmy's, also (they used the Poncho engine)? Shannen From realsquash at yahoo.com Thu May 6 04:08:12 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:08:12 -0400 Subject: 730edit program Message-ID: I've got the spark, high-end spark, and 2 VE tables nailed down, but i'm having some problems keeping the tables squished on the 80 column screen. I'm using one decimal place (i.e. "10.5") for all tables, and that is making some stuff run off the screen. Its not too big of an issue, but i sure makes it look crappy. I will be working hard at it this weekend. I will start adding all of the simple single value "switches" this weekend. Andy --- Scott Feaver wrote: > How are you making out with this? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu > > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu]On > Behalf Of Squash > > Sent: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:16 PM > > To: diy efi > > Subject: 730edit program > > > > > > I've begun work on the 730 AUJP editor. > > > > If you would like a copy of the VERY immature > version, > > e-mail me. I'll be posting updates on a website > soon. > > > > I only have the spark table section complete at > this > > time. I should have all the VE and the high-end > spark > > done this weekend. > > > > As for ALL of the rest of the switches and tables, > i > > plan on adding them all over the next week or 2. > > > > The biggest challenge for me is converting the > data to > > something readable (i.e. 39H to 20 degrees > advance). > > > > See ya > > > > Andy > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owly at mcn.net Thu May 6 04:18:54 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:18:54 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: James: I'm firmly in your camp.......Statements recently made about Cummins and other engines are absurd. Either someone is mixing up decimal points or mistaking bar for PSI. I can speak from experience with Cummins common rail systems when I say that they are nowhere close to these numbers (I've guaged them). Also The injector pop pressures of most diesel engines I've worked with would make me think that someone is mistaking bar and psi pressures. 1500 psi would be a reasonable breaking pressure for a typical injector, and 4k-5k psi would be a very high pressure injector. I believe that Cummins B series and C series engines (not common rail) operate in the latter range.... don't quote me here as I have only hearsay numbers on these. There is no way on God's earth that a CAV, Roosamaster, or Stanadyne rotary pump can produce the pressures people have been throwing about, and I have grave doubts that any of the piston pumps can do this either. There is no doubt that diesels develop more power with better atomization, and run more efficiently.... as do gas engines...this has long been known, but pressures of 20,000 psi are not only difficult to achieve, but EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. The only safe way to achieve these kind of pressures safely would be to do it with an injector which did the pumping so that there was no danger of line breakage. We are being deluged with bad information here, but unfortunately I have no way of convincingly refuting it. In my opinion it's utter nonsense!! H.W. -----Original Message----- From: James Montebello To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 12:37 PM Subject: RE: atomization enhancement >> I just looked this up. All the new german diesel engines use >> common-rail >> (BMW, Audi, Mercedes) and uses a pressures of approx 1350 bar. >> VW has a new diesel at 1.9 liter that uses one separate diesel >> pump/cyilinder and uses a pressure of 2050 bar. According to all these >> manufacturers the higher the pressure the better the combustion. > >1350 BAR!?! 2050 BAR?!? > >20,000psi and 30,000 psi? Tell me there's a missing decimal >point, or a units mistake here. 13.5 and 20.5 bar sound more >believable. > >james montebello > From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 6 04:57:01 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 00:57:01 -0400 Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jackson, Trevor Subject: RE: 305 TPI and 808 ECM Welp, I don't have any good 87-89 165 5.0 files Sorry. I do have a list of some bins thou. AKFM N P R S Z AKHA B C D ANYH J ANYD Z APYP T U Y Z Using 8 injectors instead of 9 would let you use a 89 bin Bruce > Matt > When I get time in the next few days I'll make up a circuit to disable the > VATS. What I need to know is what PROM code is the correct one to use - I've > been unable to find any reference to the AGYM3493 EPROM that we currently > have. If I can get hold of the right data then I should be able to burn a > new EPROM to use. Do you know what the correct EPROM version is? > Trevor > > From: Matt Tomlins [SMTP:Mattpw at ozemail.com.au] > > Subject: Re: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > > The 165 is the same as an 808 apart from having 1 extra chip to perform > > high > > speed serial communications. > > The Camaro application is a Mass Air Flow system, whereas the Commodore is > > MAP based. If you try to run the Camaro on the ASBX calibration, it will > > run, but in limp home mode. You need to use a MAP sensor for it to run > > properly. If you want to run the Camaro calibration, you will need to > > disable the VATS. This can be done via an external circuit, or disabled in > > the calibration (Much tidier solution). All of this informaion is in the > > DIY_EFI archeives. Having said all that, I have run a mates Camaro on an > > ASBX memcal. It ran quite well, but needed some modifications to the idle > > control area. > > If you need any more help, let me know > > Cheers > > Matt Tomlins > > From: Jackson, Trevor > > Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > > > I'm currently trying to help a friend get a 305 TPI engine running, but > > > without much success so far. I believe that the engine is from an 87 or > > 88 > > > Camero auto (bought from a wrecked car), the wiring loom is from a > > manual > > > Camero, and the ECM we have is from the Australian Holden Commodore > > (which > > > from what I've read from the archives is the 1227808). > > > I understand that the '808 ecm is more or less equivalent to the '165 > > ecm, > > > and so we should be able to use it OK. The problem we have is with the > > > Memcals. We have the Memcal that came with the ecm, which is a ASBX 9285 > > > from the 307 engine that is used in the Commodores, and a Memcal from > > (we > > > think) a 89 Camero with a 305 TPI (EPROM AGYM 3493). > > > As yet we have been able to get the engine running using the 89 Camero > > > Memcal, but it does run (not very well though) using the Memcal from the > > > Commodore. > > We think that the Memcal from the 89 Camero is not working because we do > > not > > > have a VATS signal to send to the ecm - I plan to build the circuit to > > > emulate that so that we can see if that is the problem. If this is the > > > problem, is the program/data from the AGYM 3493 EPROM suitable for this > > > engine, or do I need to get hold of a different EPROM image and program > > up > > > another EPROM? > > > BTW, can anyone tell me what is the correct EPROM image for an 87/88 305 > > TPI > > > engine? > > I've only just discovered these mailing lists and am slowly making my > > way > > > through the archives. There is a mountain of info there - I just need to > > > find the relevant pieces. > > regards > > > Trevor Jackson From ludis at cruzers.com Thu May 6 08:15:23 1999 From: ludis at cruzers.com (Ludis Langens) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 04:15:23 -0400 Subject: O2 == 1.00? volts? Message-ID: Is it possible for an O2 sensor to output a full volt (plus a few millivolts)? I thought they peaked out at 9/10ths of a volt or so. The 1+ volts were measured with a DVM. The meter's ground lead was clipped to the engine<->body braid. The engine end of this braid is where the computer picks up the O2 ground. This was on an EEC-IV w/ Motorcraft 2150 feedback carb. I got the 1+ volt reading just after starting a cold engine. The temp guage hadn't even reached "C" yet. This engine is freshly rebuilt - I was continuing the initial fast idle break-in after fixing a vacuum leak / major lean misfire problem. At the time, the engine had 20 to 25 minutes of running time. Once the engine started warming up a bit, the computer took over and the O2 started swinging back and forth. In a related matter, what is the proper position of the idle mixture adjustment screws? I assume that they should be set so that the feedback solenoid is running at around 50%. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ From c95fsg at cs.umu.se Thu May 6 11:09:11 1999 From: c95fsg at cs.umu.se (Fredrik Skog) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 07:09:11 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: On Fri, 7 May 1999, Howard Wilkinson wrote: First: I live in europe and we don't use the unlogical imperial measurements and I have double checked these figures and it says bar not psi. Second: I have the "Bosch Automotive Handbook" in my hand right now and it says that Bosch common rail uses pressures of up to 1600 bar in their common-rail systems. Third: I have actually driven these vehicles and they work, and they work very good, you can't believe it is a diesel engine when you drive it. This is not bad information, and just because Cummins don't have a way to achieve these pressures don't mean that others don't...please, we live in 1999 now and technology are still getting better. And remember that all of these engines where presented to the market last year or this year so they are very new. > James: > I'm firmly in your camp.......Statements recently made about > Cummins and other engines are absurd. Either someone is mixing up > decimal points or mistaking bar for PSI. I can speak from experience > with Cummins common rail systems when I say that they are nowhere > close to these numbers (I've guaged them). Also The injector pop > pressures of most diesel engines I've worked with would make me think > that someone is mistaking bar and psi pressures. 1500 psi would be a > reasonable breaking pressure for a typical injector, and 4k-5k psi > would be a very high pressure injector. I believe that Cummins B > series and C series engines (not common rail) operate in the latter > range.... don't quote me here as I have only hearsay numbers on these. > There is no way on God's earth that a CAV, Roosamaster, or Stanadyne > rotary pump can produce the pressures people have been throwing about, > and I have grave doubts that any of the piston pumps can do this > either. There is no doubt that diesels develop more power with better > atomization, and run more efficiently.... as do gas engines...this has > long been known, but pressures of 20,000 psi are not only difficult to > achieve, but EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. The only safe way to achieve these > kind of pressures safely would be to do it with an injector which did > the pumping so that there was no danger of line breakage. > We are being deluged with bad information here, but unfortunately > I have no way of convincingly refuting it. In my opinion it's utter > nonsense!! H.W. > > > > >> I just looked this up. All the new german diesel engines use > >> common-rail > >> (BMW, Audi, Mercedes) and uses a pressures of approx 1350 bar. > >> VW has a new diesel at 1.9 liter that uses one separate diesel > >> pump/cyilinder and uses a pressure of 2050 bar. According to all > these > >> manufacturers the higher the pressure the better the combustion. > > > >1350 BAR!?! 2050 BAR?!? > > > >20,000psi and 30,000 psi? Tell me there's a missing decimal > >point, or a units mistake here. 13.5 and 20.5 bar sound more > >believable. > > > >james montebello > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 From pford at qnx.com Thu May 6 12:12:15 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 08:12:15 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Previously, you (Aaron Willis) wrote: > At 02:22 PM 5/5/99 -0700, you wrote: > >How about if ya had a HUGE donut shaped container, in space, and spun i > >REALLY fast so as to force the air to the outside of the donut, THEN fly > >an airplane within that 'SIMULATED' atmosphere? It would work... > > > >Now you've heard of an atmoshpere existing without gravity... don't all object exert a small gravatational pull ( I think I heard that years ago). doc should know? > > Ha...ALMOST! Even I caught this one. I'm going to count that centrifugal > force that threw the air to the outside of the donut as gravity in this > example. > I think gravity is a different animal. > > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From m.s.bower at cummins.com Thu May 6 12:33:37 1999 From: m.s.bower at cummins.com (Matt S Bower) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 08:33:37 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Actually the Cummins system they are talking about is absolete nowadays. Cummins does use bosch fuel system quite a bit and those presures ate in line for Cummins just the same. Fredrik Skog wrote: > > On Fri, 7 May 1999, Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > First: I live in europe and we don't use the unlogical imperial > measurements and I have double checked these figures and it says bar not > psi. Second: I have the "Bosch Automotive Handbook" in my hand > right now and it says that Bosch common rail uses pressures of up to 1600 > bar in their common-rail systems. > Third: I have actually driven these vehicles and they work, and they work > very good, you can't believe it is a diesel engine when you drive it. > > This is not bad information, and just because Cummins don't have a way to > achieve these pressures don't mean that others don't...please, we live in > 1999 now and technology are still getting better. And remember that all of > these engines where presented to the market last year or this year so they > are very new. > > > James: > > I'm firmly in your camp.......Statements recently made about > > Cummins and other engines are absurd. Either someone is mixing up > > decimal points or mistaking bar for PSI. I can speak from experience > > with Cummins common rail systems when I say that they are nowhere > > close to these numbers (I've guaged them). Also The injector pop > > pressures of most diesel engines I've worked with would make me think > > that someone is mistaking bar and psi pressures. 1500 psi would be a > > reasonable breaking pressure for a typical injector, and 4k-5k psi > > would be a very high pressure injector. I believe that Cummins B > > series and C series engines (not common rail) operate in the latter > > range.... don't quote me here as I have only hearsay numbers on these. > > There is no way on God's earth that a CAV, Roosamaster, or Stanadyne > > rotary pump can produce the pressures people have been throwing about, > > and I have grave doubts that any of the piston pumps can do this > > either. There is no doubt that diesels develop more power with better > > atomization, and run more efficiently.... as do gas engines...this has > > long been known, but pressures of 20,000 psi are not only difficult to > > achieve, but EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. The only safe way to achieve these > > kind of pressures safely would be to do it with an injector which did > > the pumping so that there was no danger of line breakage. > > We are being deluged with bad information here, but unfortunately > > I have no way of convincingly refuting it. In my opinion it's utter > > nonsense!! H.W. > > > > > > > > >> I just looked this up. All the new german diesel engines use > > >> common-rail > > >> (BMW, Audi, Mercedes) and uses a pressures of approx 1350 bar. > > >> VW has a new diesel at 1.9 liter that uses one separate diesel > > >> pump/cyilinder and uses a pressure of 2050 bar. According to all > > these > > >> manufacturers the higher the pressure the better the combustion. > > > > > >1350 BAR!?! 2050 BAR?!? > > > > > >20,000psi and 30,000 psi? Tell me there's a missing decimal > > >point, or a units mistake here. 13.5 and 20.5 bar sound more > > >believable. > > > > > >james montebello > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University > > Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se > Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog > 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 > Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Thu May 6 12:50:18 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 08:50:18 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling patents Message-ID: -> I lloked thru my Evans file and found some info on the Evans patents -> for aqueous and non-aqueous ( propylene glycol) cooling systems. The -> patents for PG systems are: 4,550,694 , 4,630,572 and 5,031,579. I went to IBM's patent site and snarfed down the relevant documents. 4,550,694 appears to describe a boiling coolant system using propylene glycol. A number of details are mentioned - a circulating pump, a vapor catch tank and condensor, etc. There is much discussion of prior art systems, and frankly I have difficulty understanding what makes the Evans implementation unique enough to be patentable. 4,630,572 appears to be an extension of 4,550,694. It is completely rewritten, but covers much the same ground, adding emphasis on reverse flow, adding a drawing of a Wankel application, and additional claims for increased engine efficiency with high temperature operation. Emphasis is placed on the use of an anhydrous (not containing water) coolant. 5,031,579, dated July 16 1991 (almost a year after the public introduction of Chevrolet's LT-1) uses the small block Chevy as an example in its drawings. It again stresses anhydrous coolants, and now includes provison for a "dehydrator" to remove water from the coolant. I can't see any infringements by GM's LT1 engine. GM has used reverse flow cooling decades before the earliest of these patents was issued. GM does not use, and does not recommend use of, propylene glycol coolants. The other claims in the patents are not applicable or are prior art. Either there's some other patent Evans is using to justify their lawsuit, or it's just another nuisance suit, which is why GM maintains a large and competent legal staff. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Thu May 6 12:50:19 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 08:50:19 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: -> Hope the description works. Think of the plumbing like a single -> injector TBI system, with the injector at regulated pressure. The -> poppets, connected to the injector, require a minimum pressure to -> open. Injector opens, pressure opens poppet valves, fuel's squirted. The description is adequate, I just don't see how it can work unless the injector's flow rate is *much* larger than what can be handled by all the nozzles together. Hmm... come to think of it, since it's an intermittent system it just might work that way. Do you have any idea what the flow rating of the injector is? From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 6 14:29:55 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:29:55 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: It can only be called simulated gravity... Gravity, by definition is merely a force...which applies to ALL mass and this force is caused by mass... NOT by centrifugal means... i.e. spinning a container... Same rules apply to both however....in this scenario... Thanks for responding with your thoughts.... LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Aaron Willis wrote: > > At 02:22 PM 5/5/99 -0700, you wrote: > >How about if ya had a HUGE donut shaped container, in space, and spun i > >REALLY fast so as to force the air to the outside of the donut, THEN fly > >an airplane within that 'SIMULATED' atmosphere? It would work... > > > >Now you've heard of an atmoshpere existing without gravity... > > Ha...ALMOST! Even I caught this one. I'm going to count that centrifugal > force that threw the air to the outside of the donut as gravity in this > example. > > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 6 14:31:04 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:31:04 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Thanks, should've caught that in your prev post! Whoops, LATER! Todd....!! xxalexx at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Check your local 7-11 or food stores public reading room for this > issue of Discover Magazine. Also the sci news groups. > alex > > That idea is intriguing to say the least! > > > > How may I ask, can ANY object which exists LOSE mass? > > > > How did they measrue this, where did you hear/read about this, I'd like > > to read the article/book/newsflash? > > > > PLEASE let me know? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > xxalexx at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > > > There have been recent reports being investigated of large fly wheels > > > and levitating superconductors loosing mass. > > > alex > > > > It probably uses cold fusion as its power source. > > > > > > > > Gary Derian > > > > > > > > > > > > > Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > > > > > Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > > > > Will not need fuel injection or conventional fuel as we know it. > > > > > There is a photo of a car airborne, but did not say if prototype. > > > > > article in this issue of Discover Magazine. > > > > > alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 6 14:49:24 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:49:24 -0400 Subject: O2 == 1.00? volts? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Ludis Langens To: Diy_efi Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 4:58 AM Subject: O2 == 1.00? volts? On a GM: I've seen a few go over 1.00v, I think the record has been 1,06v. I know 0 about the Ford stuff, Bruce > Is it possible for an O2 sensor to output a full volt (plus a few > millivolts)? I thought they peaked out at 9/10ths of a volt or so. The > 1+ volts were measured with a DVM. The meter's ground lead was clipped > to the engine<->body braid. The engine end of this braid is where the > computer picks up the O2 ground. This was on an EEC-IV w/ Motorcraft > 2150 feedback carb. > > I got the 1+ volt reading just after starting a cold engine. The temp > guage hadn't even reached "C" yet. This engine is freshly rebuilt - I > was continuing the initial fast idle break-in after fixing a vacuum leak > / major lean misfire problem. At the time, the engine had 20 to 25 > minutes of running time. Once the engine started warming up a bit, the > computer took over and the O2 started swinging back and forth. > > > In a related matter, what is the proper position of the idle mixture > adjustment screws? I assume that they should be set so that the > feedback solenoid is running at around 50%. > > -- > Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com > Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ > > From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 6 15:00:24 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 11:00:24 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Speakin of that, Today, I believe, is national prayer day, a LOT of my church, including myself are fasting today.... I'll be thinking of God a LOT today, every time I get a craving for food, I think of God.... I've done it before and have committed to do it today... So far so good.... Tommor I get to do a treadmill test at the doctor's I feel like a car with all the wires they hang on ya during the treadmill as well as when I got en EKG done last Fri.... I went in to get a full physical last fri... Haven't been to a doc in over 16 yrs, that's over HALF of my LIFE!! Will get the report on everything on Fri after I do my treadmill, whatever that checks... I feel good, It's just that everyone around me seems to be developing health problems... my wife is also developing even MORE mental probs.. haha, we're seperated, so I can get away with that.... LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > > >How may I ask, can ANY object which exists LOSE mass? > > I lose mass by eating less and exercising more. > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owly at mcn.net Thu May 6 15:30:36 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 11:30:36 -0400 Subject: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Fredrik: Not to beat a dead horse here, but there is an error somewhere either in decimal placement or actual units. Let me give a few examples of injector breaking pressures. The popular Cummins B series engine used in pickups which is considered very high technology only runs 4200 lbs. injector breaking pressure. (about 290 bar) The max listed breaking pressure our local pump shop was able to find on an injector was 4500 lbs. (310 bar){note that these people are the licensed service rep for Stanadyne, Bosch, CAV, and numerous other companies and have data available for servicing virtually all currently available injection systems}. The cummins people talk about a system on the new ISB engine which has a pump that will put out 800 bar (11600 psi). They can't keep lines on these engines due to the extreme pressures. Here are some real life injector breaking pressures as listed in service manuals I happened to have handy: VW diesel: 1564 PSI (108 bar) Ford Tractor: 2594psi (179 bar) Perkins (4-236 engine): 2500 psi (172 bar) John Deere: 2600 psi (179.3 bar) International (466 truck engine): 3000 psi (207 bar) Note that the cummins PT common rail system pressures run from 80 lbs to about 300 lbs rail pressure (5.5 bar - 20.7 bar) I don't doubt that Bosch has experimented with extreme pressures, but find it impossible to believe the they have actually released systems with the figures you quote. As I said previously these pressures are deadly, not to mention problems of nozzle erosion when extreme pressures are used. These numbers are in my opinion nonsense...... regardless of what the Bosch book says.... there's an error someplace. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Fredrik Skog To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 6:02 AM Subject: Re: atomization enhancement On Fri, 7 May 1999, Howard Wilkinson wrote: First: I live in europe and we don't use the unlogical imperial measurements and I have double checked these figures and it says bar not psi. Second: I have the "Bosch Automotive Handbook" in my hand right now and it says that Bosch common rail uses pressures of up to 1600 bar in their common-rail systems. Third: I have actually driven these vehicles and they work, and they work very good, you can't believe it is a diesel engine when you drive it. This is not bad information, and just because Cummins don't have a way to achieve these pressures don't mean that others don't...please, we live in 1999 now and technology are still getting better. And remember that all of these engines where presented to the market last year or this year so they are very new. > James: > I'm firmly in your camp.......Statements recently made about > Cummins and other engines are absurd. Either someone is mixing up > decimal points or mistaking bar for PSI. I can speak from experience > with Cummins common rail systems when I say that they are nowhere > close to these numbers (I've guaged them). Also The injector pop > pressures of most diesel engines I've worked with would make me think > that someone is mistaking bar and psi pressures. 1500 psi would be a > reasonable breaking pressure for a typical injector, and 4k-5k psi > would be a very high pressure injector. I believe that Cummins B > series and C series engines (not common rail) operate in the latter > range.... don't quote me here as I have only hearsay numbers on these. > There is no way on God's earth that a CAV, Roosamaster, or Stanadyne > rotary pump can produce the pressures people have been throwing about, > and I have grave doubts that any of the piston pumps can do this > either. There is no doubt that diesels develop more power with better > atomization, and run more efficiently.... as do gas engines...this has > long been known, but pressures of 20,000 psi are not only difficult to > achieve, but EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. The only safe way to achieve these > kind of pressures safely would be to do it with an injector which did > the pumping so that there was no danger of line breakage. > We are being deluged with bad information here, but unfortunately > I have no way of convincingly refuting it. In my opinion it's utter > nonsense!! H.W. > > > > >> I just looked this up. All the new german diesel engines use > >> common-rail > >> (BMW, Audi, Mercedes) and uses a pressures of approx 1350 bar. > >> VW has a new diesel at 1.9 liter that uses one separate diesel > >> pump/cyilinder and uses a pressure of 2050 bar. According to all > these > >> manufacturers the higher the pressure the better the combustion. > > > >1350 BAR!?! 2050 BAR?!? > > > >20,000psi and 30,000 psi? Tell me there's a missing decimal > >point, or a units mistake here. 13.5 and 20.5 bar sound more > >believable. > > > >james montebello > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Thu May 6 15:54:43 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 11:54:43 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling patents Message-ID: Greg Hermann wrote: > > I am still kind of astounded that Evans was able to get a patent on it! Don't be too astounded until you see this patent: 4,215,330 --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Thu May 6 16:08:44 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:08:44 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Pat Ford wrote: > > Previously, you (Aaron Willis) wrote: > > At 02:22 PM 5/5/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >How about if ya had a HUGE donut shaped container, in space, and spun i > > >REALLY fast so as to force the air to the outside of the donut, THEN fly > > >an airplane within that 'SIMULATED' atmosphere? It would work... > > > > > >Now you've heard of an atmoshpere existing without gravity... > > don't all object exert a small gravatational pull ( I think I heard that > years ago). doc should know? Yes. > > > > > Ha...ALMOST! Even I caught this one. I'm going to count that centrifugal > > force that threw the air to the outside of the donut as gravity in this > > example. > > > > I think gravity is a different animal. Gravity and acceleration are equivalent in relativistic physics. There is an "equivalence principle" proposed by Einstein that states that no experiment can be devised that can distinguish between gravitational forces produced by mass, and acceleration forces produced by changes in velocity. This principle caused him to propose that light is bent by the sun, and although that particular experiment was flawed, it's been established since that gravity does in fact cause light to bend. --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 6 16:15:00 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:15:00 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: >James: > I'm firmly in your camp.......Statements recently made about >Cummins and other engines are absurd. Either someone is mixing up >decimal points or mistaking bar for PSI. I can speak from experience >with Cummins common rail systems when I say that they are nowhere >close to these numbers (I've guaged them). Also The injector pop >pressures of most diesel engines I've worked with would make me think >that someone is mistaking bar and psi pressures. 1500 psi would be a >reasonable breaking pressure for a typical injector, and 4k-5k psi >would be a very high pressure injector. I believe that Cummins B >series and C series engines (not common rail) operate in the latter >range.... don't quote me here as I have only hearsay numbers on these. >There is no way on God's earth that a CAV, Roosamaster, or Stanadyne >rotary pump can produce the pressures people have been throwing about, >and I have grave doubts that any of the piston pumps can do this >either. There is no doubt that diesels develop more power with better >atomization, and run more efficiently.... as do gas engines...this has >long been known, but pressures of 20,000 psi are not only difficult to >achieve, but EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. The only safe way to achieve these >kind of pressures safely would be to do it with an injector which did >the pumping so that there was no danger of line breakage. > We are being deluged with bad information here, but unfortunately >I have no way of convincingly refuting it. In my opinion it's utter >nonsense!! H.W. > As far as the Cummins PT and Jimmy two cycle stuff, I think HW is correct. Not sure about the Cummins B & C series, or L-10. I would take Brock's word on the late model stuff, particularly anything Deere, as gospel, however. I will look in the manual for my Hanomag later, as it is a Bosch system, just out of curiosity, and post whatever it says. Regards, Greg From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 6 16:15:01 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:15:01 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: >This is not bad information, and just because Cummins don't have a way to >achieve these pressures don't mean that others don't...please, we live in >1999 now and technology are still getting better. And remember that all of >these engines where presented to the market last year or this year so they >are very new. > Cummins does achieve thes pressures, they just do it at a different part of their system. The Cummins PT injection system is about the envy of every other diesel mfgr there is, as is the performance of their PT injected engines! Greg From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 6 16:28:36 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:28:36 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling patents Message-ID: > >5,031,579, dated July 16 1991 (almost a year after the public >introduction of Chevrolet's LT-1) uses the small block Chevy as an >example in its drawings. It again stresses anhydrous coolants, and now >includes provison for a "dehydrator" to remove water from the coolant. > If a process type dehydrator is built onto a cooling system (really nothing more than a small still & tower), there is certainly NO reason to pay all sorts of extra money to Evans to buy anhydrous PG- since the separator would remove any trace water from regular PG coolant in fairly short order! If you are getting the idea that I think Evans is a snake oil specialist, with lots of stray money to throw at lawyers, you are right! Greg From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 6 16:47:40 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:47:40 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: >Actually the Cummins system they are talking about is absolete >nowadays. Cummins does use bosch fuel system quite a bit and those >presures ate in line for Cummins just the same. > The Cummins PT system is hardly obsolete. The NTC and KT engines both use it, and are very much alive and well! And the 555 HP 855 (an NTC) is a rather healthy engine! Cummins has used Bosch type systems on the B series engines for cost SAVINGS, not for better performance. The Cummins PT system is not as economically adaptable to computer control as things like the new Navistar/International oil driven injectors, but it is still about as good (and responsive) an injection system as money can buy for diesels, particularly in the "Big Cam" implementations. (The larger base circle cam in a "Big Cam" Cummins allows faster ramp rates on the injector squirt cam, thus improving speed of injection and engine efficiency, as previously esplained.) (As well as allowing for faster valve acceleration rates for improved breathing.) The injector lines on a Bosch type system do, indeed see pressures well above 1000 bar. Not only is deflection of the tubes an important consideration in their design, so is the compressibility of the diesel fuel, however slight that is! In fact, the injector lines must be made of equal length, just like a good set of headers, in order for an engine to run properly. And--BTW--the ends of these Bosch type lines are_ NOT _flared. The line ends are screw machine parts and are silver soldered onto the ends of the tubing. Learned all this detail when I balked at paying $85 apiece for a set of four new injector lines for my Hanomag. After learning the details of how to do Bosch injector lines RIGHT, I went ahead and bought them! The pressure does not build up to anywhere near the stated level in the lines when there is any kind of a leak in the line tho--there is simply not enough volume flow to build the pressure up to the design level without an injector on the end of the line. If you had ever had to bleed the air out of a set of Bosch injector lines to get the engine to run at all, you would understand. Regards, Greg From A70Duster at aol.com Thu May 6 17:08:23 1999 From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 13:08:23 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: In a message dated 5/6/1999 10:25:36 AM Mountain Daylight Time, Steve.Ravet at arm.com writes: << Gravity and acceleration are equivalent in relativistic physics. There is an "equivalence principle" proposed by Einstein that states that no experiment can be devised that can distinguish between gravitational forces produced by mass, and acceleration forces produced by changes in velocity. This principle caused him to propose that light is bent by the sun, and although that particular experiment was flawed, it's been established since that gravity does in fact cause light to bend. >> The light does not bend, it is the mass of the sun that "warps" space, giving the light photos a nonuniform path to traverse. Starts getting weird when space becomes non homogeneous. Just a couple of cents, See ya, Mike From jamesm at talarian.com Thu May 6 17:17:59 1999 From: jamesm at talarian.com (James Montebello) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 13:17:59 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: > First: I live in europe and we don't use the unlogical imperial > measurements and I have double checked these figures and it > says bar not psi. Second: I have the "Bosch Automotive Handbook" > in my hand right now and it says that Bosch common rail uses > pressures of up to 1600 bar in their common-rail systems. [...] > This is not bad information, and just because Cummins don't > have a way to achieve these pressures don't mean that others > don't...please, we live in 1999 now and technology are still > getting better. It's simply that pressures that high are difficult to believe just from a basic materials standpoint. 2000 bar is approaching the tensile strength of aluminum. To put such incredibly high pressures through any mass-produced part, even now in 1999, is pretty remarkable, and I can't imagine it's cheap to do so. I'd love to know *why* Bosch feels such pressures are necessary. There must be a very good reason to justify the production costs. james montebello From Regnirps at aol.com Thu May 6 17:38:04 1999 From: Regnirps at aol.com (Regnirps at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 13:38:04 -0400 Subject: O2 == 1.00? volts? Message-ID: In a message dated 5/6/99 4:02:52 AM, ludis at cruzers.com writes: >Is it possible for an O2 sensor to output a full volt (plus a few >millivolts)? I thought they peaked out at 9/10ths of a volt or so The 0.9 volts is what you expect for a 12/1 ratio (if the sensors were accurate outside the stoichiometric point at .467 volts). My meters (shameless plug: www.regnirps.com) show a cold sensor indicates full rich and they can be as high as 1.2 or 1.25 volts. Some chemical half-cell potential I suspect but I have yet to find the definitive paper on the electrochemical reaction involved. Charlie Springer From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 6 19:24:47 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 15:24:47 -0400 Subject: atomization enhancement Message-ID: >> First: I live in europe and we don't use the unlogical imperial >> measurements and I have double checked these figures and it >> says bar not psi. Second: I have the "Bosch Automotive Handbook" >> in my hand right now and it says that Bosch common rail uses >> pressures of up to 1600 bar in their common-rail systems. >[...] >> This is not bad information, and just because Cummins don't >> have a way to achieve these pressures don't mean that others >> don't...please, we live in 1999 now and technology are still >> getting better. > >It's simply that pressures that high are difficult to believe >just from a basic materials standpoint. 2000 bar is approaching >the tensile strength of aluminum. To put such incredibly high >pressures through any mass-produced part, even now in 1999, is >pretty remarkable, and I can't imagine it's cheap to do so. > >I'd love to know *why* Bosch feels such pressures are necessary. >There must be a very good reason to justify the production costs. Faster injection and better atomization give a more efficient cycle and cleaner burning. Greg > >james montebello From c95fsg at cs.umu.se Thu May 6 21:04:57 1999 From: c95fsg at cs.umu.se (Fredrik Skog) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:04:57 -0400 Subject: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement Message-ID: On Sat, 8 May 1999, Howard Wilkinson wrote: > Fredrik: > I don't doubt that Bosch has experimented with extreme pressures, but > find it impossible to believe the they have actually released systems > with the figures you quote. As I said previously these pressures are > deadly, not to mention problems of nozzle erosion when extreme > pressures are used. > > These numbers are in my opinion nonsense...... regardless of what the > Bosch book says.... there's an error someplace. H.W. > I have a hard time believing that all the magazines "and" the Bosch handbook all have the wrong numbers. And the Bosch handbook says pressures between 350 and 1600 bar and I have a hard time believing you can make a typo like that. It's also hard to believe that 3-4 different independet automotive magazines would make the same typos. Even a harvester machine use up to 200 bar in the hydraulics system in steel braided rubber hoses so I don't see why these figures would be so hard to achieve in steel lines. Just my opinion.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 Living and dying laughing and crying Once you have seen it you will never be the same Life in the fast lane is just how it seems Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean /MetallicA From dls2867 at hotmail.com Thu May 6 21:39:29 1999 From: dls2867 at hotmail.com (David Sagers) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:39:29 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: Thanks to Ken, Todd & Gary for your answers regarding CFM. Perhaps I didn?t ask the question correctly. A stock TPI runs out of flow about 4800 rpm on a stock 350 ci engine. I?m looking for an EFI intake system for my twin turbo 434 ci engine. The guy putting the turbos together said that the stock TPI is a good choice because it will give me something really important for a fun to drive street car, great throttle response and low end torque. The turbo system is designed to start making boost about 2,500 RPM and by 3,000 RPM the turbos are really coming on strong. He explained that about the time the NA stock TPI would be running out of flow the turbos will start pressurizing the intake system and with 15 lbs of boost building even the small runners would flow enough to feed the engine without going to larger tube runners. I realize that if this were a NA engine the stock TPI would be a bad choice, I would need something like a TPIS mini ram. The mini ram flows some good numbers but even TPIS admits it will make the throttle response and low end torque somewhat soggy. However, the situation changes when the intake is pressurized with a turbo system instead of running a vacuum in the intake. Now my question, even with 15 lbs of boost it seems to me that the stock TPI is still small for a 434 performance engine, or will the boost really make up the difference for the small tubes? Finally, no web site yet, but I?ll talk to some computer guys I know and see if I can set up a site with some pics. Thanks for your help. Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 09:09:44 -0400 From: Ken Kelly Subject: Re: CFM Questions Dave, Flow is measured for a given pressure drop across the runner. I really can't imagine that this means a 600cfm flow with a 15 psi pressure drop. Who would ever spec a runner with that much drop. What is the pressure differential that creates a 600cfm flow through the tube. Then can you live with that much pressure drop? Ken Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:14:46 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" < derian at oh.verio.com> Subject: Re: CFM Questions Talk of CFM is very confusing. When someone has a 600 CFM Holley, it means if flows 600 CFM at 1.5 in. Hg pressure drop. That same carb will flow 840 CFM at 3" and 350 CFM at 0.5". There is no absolute flow limit until the air reaches the speed of sound. So how much can a TPI runner flow? Those are known to be small and limit power above 4000 rpm. Sure you can boost the daylights out of it but that creates excess heat and backpressure. I think if you had 15 psi blowing through a TPI runner to atmosphere you would have really high flow but that is meaningless. You need flow in pulses and you need to have very low pressure drop. Most guys that build engines don't really know what goes on. Can't help ya with the CFM Calc Formula, sorry, However, a Stock 426 Hemi only flows between 300-400 cfm per runner and it was supposed to outflow ANYTHING... Good luck with your project... Do you have a web site which details your build up? ALSO, is it a single or dual turbo setup? David Sagers wrote: > > Anyone know how to calculate CFM rates? I was talking to the shop that's > building the turbo set up for my chevy engine. He said that at 15 lbs of boost each runner on a stock TPI will flow 600 cfm. I think the stock runners are 1.25" But 600 cfm sounds really high for such a small tube, even at 15 lbs of boost. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From btisdale at cybersol.com Thu May 6 21:53:53 1999 From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:53:53 -0400 Subject: FI pressure Message-ID: At what inlet pressure are injectors rated in pounds per hour? Thanks - Barry From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 6 22:15:47 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:15:47 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Thanks for that insight Mike! However, I must ask: You mention that the Sun warps space... If Space is a LACK of everything, thus meaning that it is truly NOTHING, then how can NOTHING be WARPED?? Please explain? Thanks! Todd....!! --------- A70Duster at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/6/1999 10:25:36 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > Steve.Ravet at arm.com writes: > > << Gravity and acceleration are equivalent in relativistic physics. There > is an "equivalence principle" proposed by Einstein that states that no > experiment can be devised that can distinguish between gravitational > forces produced by mass, and acceleration forces produced by changes in > velocity. This principle caused him to propose that light is bent by > the sun, and although that particular experiment was flawed, it's been > established since that gravity does in fact cause light to bend. >> > > The light does not bend, it is the mass of the sun that "warps" space, giving > the light photos a nonuniform path to traverse. Starts getting weird when > space becomes non homogeneous. > > Just a couple of cents, > > See ya, > > Mike From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Thu May 6 22:19:08 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:19:08 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: > a stock 350 ci engine. I?m looking for an EFI intake system for my twin > turbo 434 ci engine. Aaaaah. > The guy putting the turbos together said that the stock TPI is a good choice > because it will give me something really important for a fun to drive street > car, great throttle response and low end torque. This is true, because the runners are smoothly curved, and long. Typically longer runners give you more low-end torque, however at higher RPMs your engine will wease to death. Several manufacturers have come up with variable length runners... the one that sits in my mind is the new Ford Taurus... long runners for low end grunt, and shorter parallel runners for higher RPMs. Instead of a 2500/3000rpm spool up range you could size for smaller turbos and have them spool up faster, thus taking even more advantage of the longer runners... but then your high end will suffer from runner length as before, but even more from grossly undersized turbos. but, it will take off the line quite nicely. I'm doing this with my Dodge truck actually... 383 cid stroked to 431, two small turbos, then a max RPM of 4000 RPM. Great for towing, not top speed. Its a 6000lb truck anyway :) You might get more performance by using a much larger throttle body, and doing some runner port work. > with 15 lbs of boost it seems to me that the stock TPI is still small for a > 434 performance engine, or will the boost really make up the difference for > the small tubes? I believe the velocity would be too great for your engine... but I am not an expert in this area. For my dodge engine, I've already drilled out the manifold, welded in injector bungs, and going to use the TPI GM setup to manage the dodge motor, and instead of the GM TPI manifold, I'm just using the dodge intake with all the GM "stuff" attached. You might consider that approach for your engine... chose a carb manifold that suits your needs and application, then mill into it some injector bungs. Its a fair amount of work, but in the end I believe its worth it. -- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology "Leadership in IT" Bridgeport, CT 06606 Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com Voice: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 From marttj at pcmail1.css.mot.com Thu May 6 22:20:51 1999 From: marttj at pcmail1.css.mot.com (Thomas Martin) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:20:51 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling patents Message-ID: I have not had one to look closely at, but I have been told by many that the 55 and 56 Pontiac V8 (287 CID) was a reverse cooled engine. They changed for 1957 with the introduction of the 317 V8, and went to the conventional cooling system used up through 1981. So if anyone would have patented it, Pontiac would have had first dibs, 45 years ago. Is there anyone who can research this? Thomas Martin From RRauscher at nni.com Thu May 6 22:36:07 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 18:36:07 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Well, I'm trying to be nice to mommy's in law, as her day is coming this Sunday. BobR. Who is going to be hosting a mommy's (and in law) day dinner... >Hey, just think about what would have happened if I mentioned Mommy in law. >She had the special slippers to go along with the broom >Grumpy > >> Now Bruce, see what you've gone and done... I've >> got miller all over the keyboard, >> BobR... >> Subject: Re: alternative engines >> Ex-Wife had anti-gravity Broom 10+ years ago. >> Grumpy >> (Pardon, lack of efi content) >> > >Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. >> > >Says could be ready within 10 yrs. >> > That's what they have been saying about fusion power for the last 30 >> > years or so.... >> > Soren From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 6 23:33:16 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 19:33:16 -0400 Subject: FI pressure Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Tisdale Subject: FI pressure I'm gonna make a wild jump here and just cover the, the high pressure TPI "style", like a GM 89 Camaro. If there is a SAE or industry stnadand I haven't seen it, and not many poeple are following it: Pressures range from 38-45 PSI. Other items to consider Voltage Duty Cycle Test Fluid Doc He guys ya know they have free magazines at the Dentist's Office?. > At what inlet pressure are injectors rated in pounds per hour? > Thanks - Barry From kb4mxo at mwt.net Thu May 6 23:40:20 1999 From: kb4mxo at mwt.net (Steve Gorkowski) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 19:40:20 -0400 Subject: O2 == 1.00? volts? Message-ID: Yes Ford O2 will go over 1v seen on my bench with a scope. Steve Bruce Plecan wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ludis Langens > To: Diy_efi > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 4:58 AM > Subject: O2 == 1.00? volts? > > On a GM: > I've seen a few go over 1.00v, I think the record has been 1,06v. I know 0 > about the Ford stuff, > Bruce > > > Is it possible for an O2 sensor to output a full volt (plus a few > > millivolts)? I thought they peaked out at 9/10ths of a volt or so. The > > 1+ volts were measured with a DVM. The meter's ground lead was clipped > > to the engine<->body braid. The engine end of this braid is where the > > computer picks up the O2 ground. This was on an EEC-IV w/ Motorcraft > > 2150 feedback carb. > > > > I got the 1+ volt reading just after starting a cold engine. The temp > > guage hadn't even reached "C" yet. This engine is freshly rebuilt - I > > was continuing the initial fast idle break-in after fixing a vacuum leak > > / major lean misfire problem. At the time, the engine had 20 to 25 > > minutes of running time. Once the engine started warming up a bit, the > > computer took over and the O2 started swinging back and forth. > > > > > > In a related matter, what is the proper position of the idle mixture > > adjustment screws? I assume that they should be set so that the > > feedback solenoid is running at around 50%. > > > > -- > > Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com > > Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ > > > > From mccabet at mediaone.net Fri May 7 00:17:54 1999 From: mccabet at mediaone.net (Thomas McCabe) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 20:17:54 -0400 Subject: FI pressure Sensors Message-ID: I am trying to locate a fuel pressure sensor for my engine monitoring system I am wanting to build. I know Motorola made some custom sensors for someone, but their web page does not list numbers. Does anyone know what vehicles used a fuel pressure sensor and a differential fuel pressure sensor? A vehicle application or a part number would be appreciated. Thanks for any help provided! L8r -- Thomas McCabe - mccabet at mediaone.net '85 D250, 340 on Propane, Auto '89 Lebaron GTC, 2.2L Turbo II, A-555 5 Speed, MPSBEC - 1 of 1033 '90 Dodge Caravan, 2.5L N/A, A-523 5 Speed (Soon to be Turbo) '91 Spirit R/T, 2.2L DOHC 16 Valve T3, A568 5 Speed - 1 of 1208 '96 Dakota SLT Club Cab, Brilliant Blue, 5.2L, Auto, 3.55 SG From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Fri May 7 00:29:35 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 20:29:35 -0400 Subject: O2 == 1.00? volts? Message-ID: With O2 cold the bias voltage has rather large contribution to total output voltage. With hot sensor or no bias you will probably never see 1 volt. You might try a 4 wire to see if grd. loop >From what I recall the solenoids were run under 50% for durability and better tip in control, (these were Carter with air bleed feedback) alex > Yes Ford O2 will go over 1v seen on my bench with a scope. > > Steve > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ludis Langens > > To: Diy_efi > > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 4:58 AM > > Subject: O2 == 1.00? volts? > > > > On a GM: > > I've seen a few go over 1.00v, I think the record has been 1,06v. I know 0 > > about the Ford stuff, > > Bruce > > > > > Is it possible for an O2 sensor to output a full volt (plus a few > > > millivolts)? I thought they peaked out at 9/10ths of a volt or so. The > > > 1+ volts were measured with a DVM. The meter's ground lead was clipped > > > to the engine<->body braid. The engine end of this braid is where the > > > computer picks up the O2 ground. This was on an EEC-IV w/ Motorcraft > > > 2150 feedback carb. > > > > > > I got the 1+ volt reading just after starting a cold engine. The temp > > > guage hadn't even reached "C" yet. This engine is freshly rebuilt - I > > > was continuing the initial fast idle break-in after fixing a vacuum leak > > > / major lean misfire problem. At the time, the engine had 20 to 25 > > > minutes of running time. Once the engine started warming up a bit, the > > > computer took over and the O2 started swinging back and forth. > > > > > > > > > In a related matter, what is the proper position of the idle mixture > > > adjustment screws? I assume that they should be set so that the > > > feedback solenoid is running at around 50%. > > > > > > -- > > > Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com > > > Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ > > > > > > > > > > > From btisdale at cybersol.com Fri May 7 01:23:51 1999 From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:23:51 -0400 Subject: FI pressure Message-ID: Well, on my test rig, all injectors put out 16.8-17.1 grams of gasoline in around 10 seconds (555 timer) @ 40psi - less than 2% variation among all 6. Guess they're ok - *now*, what to do with this engine???????????????? Once pulled a Nixonian 'dirty trick' on one of my competitors - made up phony address label w/ his info on it; stuck it to an issue of the "Man-Boy Love Association" publication - left it in his waiting room. Harharhar! Barry BTW, we *never* keep anyone waiting, so's nobody ever gets to read any mags. At 07:33 PM 5/6/99 -0400, you wrote: >He guys ya know they have free magazines at the Dentist's Office?. From JRECPA at aol.com Fri May 7 01:29:35 1999 From: JRECPA at aol.com (JRECPA at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:29:35 -0400 Subject: FI pressure Sensors Message-ID: In a message dated 5/6/99 6:15:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, mccabet at mediaone.net writes: << I am trying to locate a fuel pressure sensor for my engine monitoring system I am wanting to build. I know Motorola made some custom sensors for someone, but their web page does not list numbers. Does anyone know what vehicles used a fuel pressure sensor and a differential fuel pressure sensor? A vehicle application or a part number would be appreciated. Thanks for any help provided! >> I am getting one for a digital guage from summit racing. James From shannen at grolen.com Fri May 7 02:12:01 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 22:12:01 -0400 Subject: Injectors & harness Message-ID: Dave Williams wrote: > > -> Hope the description works. Think of the plumbing like a single > -> injector TBI system, with the injector at regulated pressure. The > -> poppets, connected to the injector, require a minimum pressure to > -> open. Injector opens, pressure opens poppet valves, fuel's squirted. > > The description is adequate, I just don't see how it can work unless > the injector's flow rate is *much* larger than what can be handled by > all the nozzles together. Hmm... come to think of it, since it's an > intermittent system it just might work that way. Do you have any idea > what the flow rating of the injector is? > No, but maybe it would help if we called it a valve instead of an injector. Shannen From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 7 02:36:49 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 22:36:49 -0400 Subject: FI pressure Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Tisdale To: Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 9:21 PM Subject: Re: FI pressure Well, I'd suggest using them. FWIW, 1% or less is nicer. Oldies, can run 12%. Usually that acts like a dead hole (depending on displcement, number of cylinders). Next time, ya do it it's kinda neat to get a knock sensor, and scope, and "look" at the injector for opening, and closing. Kinda like using a diagnostic scope for looking at firing voltages etc onna ICE. Grumpy Waiting?, hell I just walk in and read till I find one worth taking. Then take it home, trouble is tooo much M Stewart stuff. > Well, on my test rig, all injectors put out 16.8-17.1 grams of gasoline in around 10 seconds (555 timer) @ 40psi - less than 2% variation among all 6. > > Guess they're ok - *now*, what to do with this engine???????????????? > > Once pulled a Nixonian 'dirty trick' on one of my competitors - made up phony address label w/ his info on it; stuck it to an issue of the "Man-Boy Love Association" publication - left it in his waiting room. > > Harharhar! > > Barry > > BTW, we *never* keep anyone waiting, so's nobody ever gets to read any mags. > > At 07:33 PM 5/6/99 -0400, you wrote: > >He guys ya know they have free magazines at the Dentist's Office?. > From shannen at grolen.com Fri May 7 03:00:16 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:00:16 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling patents Message-ID: Thomas Martin wrote: > > I have not had one to look closely at, but I have been told by many that the 55 and 56 > Pontiac V8 (287 CID) was a reverse cooled engine. They changed for 1957 with the > introduction of the 317 V8, and went to the conventional cooling system used up through > 1981. > > So if anyone would have patented it, Pontiac would have had first dibs, 45 years ago. > > Is there anyone who can research this? > > Thomas Martin I'll let ya know if there's any visible difference between the 55 Poncho and other engines around this time next week. Shannen From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 7 03:46:54 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:46:54 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling patents Message-ID: Bending light, now this time next week, Time Travel???. Shannen ya got the other little guys mutering Grumpy > > I have not had one to look closely at, but I have been told by many that the 55 and 56 > > Pontiac V8 (287 CID) was a reverse cooled engine. They changed for 1957 with the > > introduction of the 317 V8, and went to the conventional cooling system used up through > > 1981. > > So if anyone would have patented it, Pontiac would have had first dibs, 45 years ago. > > Is there anyone who can research this? > > Thomas Martin > I'll let ya know if there's any visible difference between the 55 > Poncho and other engines around this time next week. > Shannen From owly at mcn.net Fri May 7 03:55:50 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:55:50 -0400 Subject: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Fredrik: I don't find it hard to believe that the magazines and Bosch book all quote the same figures.... where do you think the figures came from? I've encountered erroneous figures in the past which were echoed throughout several publications.... not an uncommon thing. I do however find it highly improbable that a fuel injection system could have a pressure range of 1600bar with a breaking pressure of a small fraction of that number..... I have yet to see any injector breaking pressures listed which suggest line pressures of this magnitude. That such pressures could be associated with a common rail system is simply beyond belief....... I'm a stubborn sort of guy I guess, but if it makes no sense to me I must assume it to be false unless I have some verification that I consider satisfactory. Too many falsehoods have been repeated over and over again until they are believed. When I see an injector which as a breaking pressure of 1600 bar, I will have no difficulty in believing that the system produces that pressure. ;-) H.W. > I have a hard time believing that all the magazines "and" the Bosch handbook all have the wrong numbers. And the Bosch handbook says pressures between 350 and 1600 bar and I have a hard time believing you can make a typo like that. It's also hard to believe that 3-4 different independet automotive magazines would make the same typos. Even a harvester machine use up to 200 bar in the hydraulics system in steel braided rubber hoses so I don't see why these figures would be so hard to achieve in steel lines. Just my opinion.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 Living and dying laughing and crying Once you have seen it you will never be the same Life in the fast lane is just how it seems Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean /MetallicA From bearbvd at sni.net Fri May 7 04:07:50 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:07:50 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: >Thanks to Ken, Todd & Gary for your answers regarding CFM. Perhaps I didn?t >ask the question correctly. A stock TPI runs out of flow about 4800 rpm on >a stock 350 ci engine. I?m looking for an EFI intake system for my twin >turbo 434 ci engine. > >The guy putting the turbos together said that the stock TPI is a good choice >because it will give me something really important for a fun to drive street >car, great throttle response and low end torque. > How fast are you planning to turn the engine? Say for a 434, 5400 will be it? Then, the engine will be trying to breathe in 434 x 5400 x 0.5 x 1/1728 , or 678 cfm at the highest speed you will be turning it. The runners to each cylinder will be wanting to flow 1/8 of this much, or about 85 cfm each. The trick is to size everything in the flow path so that you do not have excessive pressure drop at any one point in the path at the amount of flow the engine wants to draw in. What the guy talking to you is missing is that with a pressurized intake--the pressure drop in the runners is proportional to the density of the air flowing through them! Of course--you will also have proportionally more pressure you can afford to lose with the turbo motor, So whatever will work well with the same size and speed range NA motor is pretty close for a turbo motor. Going maybe a fuzz BIGGER than what you would use for a similar size/speed NA motor will tend to lower backpressure from the turbo on the motor, and lower EGT's some. Going any smaller than what you would run on an NA 434 would hurt performance some, and durability more. Flow on the inlet side of the turbos will be the amount of air the engine breathes times the manifold density ratio--a LOT more cfm. Everything on the inlet side of the turbos should be sized accordingly, and also to have VERY low pressure losses at this design flow The amount of back pressure which the turbo(s) will put on the engine to make a given amount of boost is EXTREMELY sensitive to losses in the inlet tract to the turbos!. Regards, Greg From nwester at eidnet.org Fri May 7 05:02:48 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 01:02:48 -0400 Subject: Jeep 4.0 Liter MPI (circa 1987-1991) Message-ID: Hi, Jim-- If this thing used a make up of a cam sensor with no location for number one--the ECU used a calculation of reading the cam sensor along with the crank--this alloted a full two crankshaft locations before #1 cylinder is found--the other problem on those earlier ones is the cam/crank sensor at the back of the engine gets oil soaked and messes up--reading the thing with a labscope makes diagnostics easier. Lyndon IP TECH LWester at compuserve.com -----Original Message----- From: Simpson, James H To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 5:13 PM Subject: Jeep 4.0 Liter MPI (circa 1987-1991) >Hi, > >I have a 1987 Jeep Cherokee 4.0 Liter MPI engine installed in a 1982 Jeep >CJ7. I have discovered that AMC used a Renault (Renix?) computer system in >the 1987-1991 Cherokees, and that information on this computer system is, so >far, impossible to obtain. I'm having some troubles starting the engine; it >cranks for several seconds (15-30) before it starts, if it starts at all. >I've been through all of the static tests (sensor resistance/function, fuel >pressure, etc.) and everything looks OK. I've been looking for information >on computer codes and commands with no success. > >Q. Does anyone have information on the Renix computer system? > >Q. Is it possible to retrofit a different computer system to this engine? >Has anyone done this? I guess GM would be my first choice. > >Thanks for any help you might be able to give! > >Jim Simpson > > From claresnyder at home.com Fri May 7 05:17:00 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 01:17:00 -0400 Subject: Reverse Cooling patents Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Martin To: Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 6:20 PM Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling patents > I have not had one to look closely at, but I have been told by many that the 55 and 56 > Pontiac V8 (287 CID) was a reverse cooled engine. They changed for 1957 with the > introduction of the 317 V8, and went to the conventional cooling system used up through > 1981. > > So if anyone would have patented it, Pontiac would have had first dibs, 45 years ago. > > Is there anyone who can research this? > > Thomas Martin > > > In '56 both the Cheiftain and Star Cheif engines were 316.6 cubic inch, not 287. 1955 was a 287 cuber. This engine was apparently only made for the one year, as the '54 was still the old flathead straight eight. It is quite possible this 287 was reverse cooled. From claresnyder at home.com Fri May 7 05:20:09 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 01:20:09 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Frederic Breitwieser To: Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 6:18 PM Subject: Re: CFM Continued... > a stock 350 ci engine. I'm looking for an EFI intake system for my twin > turbo 434 ci engine. Aaaaah. > The guy putting the turbos together said that the stock TPI is a good choice > because it will give me something really important for a fun to drive street > car, great throttle response and low end torque. >This is true, because the runners are smoothly curved, and long. Typically >longer runners give you more low-end torque, however at higher RPMs your engine >will wease to death. Several manufacturers have come up with variable length >runners... the one that sits in my mind is the new Ford Taurus... long runners >for low end grunt, and shorter parallel runners for higher RPMs. When it comes to forced induction RAM tuning has a lot less advantage than in NA engines. The turbo does the ramming for you, so short and sweet reduces flow restrictions - particularly if run off a fairly large plenum. Instead of a 2500/3000rpm spool up range you could size for smaller turbos and have them spool up faster, thus taking even more advantage of the longer runners... but then your high end will suffer from runner length as before, but even more from grossly undersized turbos. but, it will take off the line quite nicely. I'm doing this with my Dodge truck actually... 383 cid stroked to 431, two small turbos, then a max RPM of 4000 RPM. Great for towing, not top speed. Its a 6000lb truck anyway :) You might get more performance by using a much larger throttle body, and doing some runner port work. > with 15 lbs of boost it seems to me that the stock TPI is still small for a > 434 performance engine, or will the boost really make up the difference for > the small tubes? I believe the velocity would be too great for your engine... but I am not an expert in this area. For my dodge engine, I've already drilled out the manifold, welded in injector bungs, and going to use the TPI GM setup to manage the dodge motor, and instead of the GM TPI manifold, I'm just using the dodge intake with all the GM "stuff" attached. You might consider that approach for your engine... chose a carb manifold that suits your needs and application, then mill into it some injector bungs. Its a fair amount of work, but in the end I believe its worth it. -- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology "Leadership in IT" Bridgeport, CT 06606 Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com Voice: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 From gustaf.ulander at bercoproduktion.se Fri May 7 06:10:42 1999 From: gustaf.ulander at bercoproduktion.se (Gustaf Ulander) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:10:42 -0400 Subject: SV: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement Message-ID: List As a fellow Swede I feel I have to back Fredrik up here. http://www.audi.com/java/models/stage/technic/v6tdi/e_v6tdi.html a link to Audis TDI homepage, 1500 bar. Trust us, there IS no typing error, in fact, those high pressures has been discussed in european magazines for the last 3 years. Questioning information given is sound, but I feel we're passing the limit of being plain stubborn here... //Gustaf, regular lurker -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr?n: Fredrik Skog Till: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Datum: den 6 maj 1999 23:25 ?mne: Re: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement On Sat, 8 May 1999, Howard Wilkinson wrote: > Fredrik: > I don't doubt that Bosch has experimented with extreme pressures, but > find it impossible to believe the they have actually released systems > with the figures you quote. As I said previously these pressures are > deadly, not to mention problems of nozzle erosion when extreme > pressures are used. > > These numbers are in my opinion nonsense...... regardless of what the > Bosch book says.... there's an error someplace. H.W. > I have a hard time believing that all the magazines "and" the Bosch handbook all have the wrong numbers. And the Bosch handbook says pressures between 350 and 1600 bar and I have a hard time believing you can make a typo like that. It's also hard to believe that 3-4 different independet automotive magazines would make the same typos. Even a harvester machine use up to 200 bar in the hydraulics system in steel braided rubber hoses so I don't see why these figures would be so hard to achieve in steel lines. Just my opinion.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 Living and dying laughing and crying Once you have seen it you will never be the same Life in the fast lane is just how it seems Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean /MetallicA From FHPREMACH at aol.com Fri May 7 06:49:47 1999 From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 02:49:47 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: In a message dated 5/1/99 6:37:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owly at mcn.net writes: << >Offcourse.......you are right , I have wanted to try a 4 stroke with reed >valves >in the intake and run a camshaft thats good for top end...... >Espen > >> We tried this on some race bikes years ago. Reeds reduced the airflow and added length to the inlet tract that changed the tuned length. If it bore any real use, the F1 guys would be all over it. Fred From pbrunn at t-online.de Fri May 7 07:08:38 1999 From: pbrunn at t-online.de (Philipp Brunn) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 03:08:38 -0400 Subject: Need Fuel Injector Data Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE9869.1A80F6C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I found some FI data some weeks ago. Philipp -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Gerald B. Clark An: DIY_EFI Datum: Freitag, 30. April 1999 0233 Betreff: Need Fuel Injector Data >A friend of mine and I are working on an unusual project. We are adapting a >'93 Saturn ECM and two DIS modules to run a Continental O-200 aircraft >engine. The engine is 200 C.I. (3.3 L) 4 cylinder dual plug and should make >about 120 HP at about 2800 RPM. > >Unfortunately, the fellow who chose the Saturn ECM and specified the fuel >injectors died. We have tried two different sets of fuel injectors and >neither seem to work right. The first set was apparently way too large. >They were the Rochester p/n 17104988 which flow about 72 LB./hr. and 2 Ohm. >We felt that they were going to be too big when we started. Next we tried a >set of Rochester p/n 17102119 that are rated at 19 LB./hr and 16 Ohm. The >second set appears to be too small. Part of the problem may be that the ECM >has 2 Ohm drivers. > >We are looking for some data to select the correct injectors for the job. >We believe that we need a flow of about 15-19 LB/hr. and 2 Ohm Peak and >Hold. The pockets installed will take a type 5 (3 O-ring) injectors. > >Can anyone supply us with the information or give us an idea of where we can >find a chart with the injector data? > >If someone can suggest a year and model of engine using the correct >injectors for us, we could go to the dealer and buy them. > >If anyone needs 4 of the Rochester 17104988 injectors which we believe are >for the LT-1 Corvette, we would like to find a new owner. The injectors >have about 30 minutes running time on them. > > > > >Jerry Clark (K7KZ) >http://www.AZStarNet.com/~gbclark >PGP key http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x30FD11E5 > > > > ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE9869.1A80F6C0 Content-Type: application/x-zip-compressed; name="Injector%20Data.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Injector%20Data.zip" UEsDBBQAAAAIADxzlSYMzsgx6l8AAABYAQARAAAASW5qZWN0b3IgRGF0YS54bHPsW2tsXMd1Prtc Lrl8vyQ+9LrimxSX3Cd3V5TE5fJNkRJFUrSTKJZX5FJci+QSfEiWk8ZMXcH54TaunRph6iZ2G7hx DBdtWjhB0KZy+8cI1EZogAZI2kKu3RZom8IF6iCw27DnzNydvTM7F26L9keL3tU+5ty5853znTNn 5p5L3f9e9YOXf6fpbVCOc1AAPzvwgNsic+L769lGFeD5gwP6mf3+Gr5fxffB/x//aw5PcTFAYSE8 deheEQXBm8zLf4jvu/j+a3xfgU2oGklupFNrRsKYyOyu7WQ2jP/ZI4FavOt6ET8r4DB+OqEeA66i YDizvpnZTu+kjOn09k49yh2uBmil4HMcEnE6OfCzA/7LwWIRI3LQ46F+BuvnwBcd7oED0Y9/fg+g upExUMM+a9nnWWy9B+fhmcuPDUTNnv0FcXbuF9lnM/usIH3gmw76/UMm8UMdvIXfB08+yyGgcGgr 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Message-ID: Got into a fight once, the guy knocked me into next week. It's a trick that's stayed with me for years. Shannen Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Bending light, now this time next week, Time Travel???. > Shannen ya got the other little guys mutering > Grumpy > > > > I have not had one to look closely at, but I have been told by many that > the 55 and 56 > > > Pontiac V8 (287 CID) was a reverse cooled engine. They changed for 1957 > with the > > > introduction of the 317 V8, and went to the conventional cooling system > used up through > > > 1981. > > > So if anyone would have patented it, Pontiac would have had first dibs, > 45 years ago. > > > Is there anyone who can research this? > > > Thomas Martin > > I'll let ya know if there's any visible difference between the 55 > > Poncho and other engines around this time next week. > > Shannen From c95fsg at cs.umu.se Fri May 7 10:58:43 1999 From: c95fsg at cs.umu.se (Fredrik Skog) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 06:58:43 -0400 Subject: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement Message-ID: On Sat, 8 May 1999, Howard Wilkinson wrote: > Fredrik: > I don't find it hard to believe that the magazines and Bosch book > all quote the same figures.... where do you think the figures came > from? I've encountered erroneous figures in the past which were > echoed throughout several publications.... not an uncommon thing. I > do however find it highly improbable that a fuel injection system > could have a pressure range of 1600bar with a breaking pressure of a > small fraction of that number..... I have yet to see any injector > breaking pressures listed which suggest line pressures of this > magnitude. That such pressures could be associated with a common rail > system is simply beyond belief....... > I'm a stubborn sort of guy I guess, but if it makes no sense to me > I must assume it to be false unless I have some verification that I > consider satisfactory. Too many falsehoods have been repeated over > and over again until they are believed. When I see an injector which > as a breaking pressure of 1600 bar, I will have no difficulty in > believing that the system produces that pressure. ;-) H.W. > Sorry for waisting bandwidth with this but I am sure of that these figures the magazines quotes don't come from the Bosch book. The Bosch book says that their systems use between 350 and 1600 bar and doesn't say anything wich car make uses what pressure. The magazines wich by the way are very respectable magazines here in Europe says what each car model uses. And this have happened a lot of times and with a few months apart. For instance the VW was quoted using 2050 bar....and I have seen other makes with pressures at 800 bar, 1280 bar, 1400 bar....It just seems strange that an error like this would exist in the magazines for several months and in a lot of magazines. I really think that these magz have some sort of error correction routines and that errors like that would not slip through printing in such a long time period. Sorry but I have not changed my mind :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 Living and dying laughing and crying Once you have seen it you will never be the same Life in the fast lane is just how it seems Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean /MetallicA From c95fsg at cs.umu.se Fri May 7 11:01:11 1999 From: c95fsg at cs.umu.se (Fredrik Skog) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 07:01:11 -0400 Subject: SV: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement Message-ID: On Fri, 7 May 1999, Gustaf Ulander wrote: > As a fellow Swede I feel I have to back Fredrik up here. > > http://www.audi.com/java/models/stage/technic/v6tdi/e_v6tdi.html a link to > Audis TDI homepage, 1500 bar. > > Trust us, there IS no typing error, in fact, those high pressures has been > discussed in european magazines for the last 3 years. > > Questioning information given is sound, but I feel we're passing the limit > of being plain stubborn here... Thanx!! =) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Ume? University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg at cs.umu.se Taffelstr?ket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Ume? Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 Living and dying laughing and crying Once you have seen it you will never be the same Life in the fast lane is just how it seems Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean /MetallicA From owly at mcn.net Fri May 7 12:44:31 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 08:44:31 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: Thanks Fred......... You are however quoting Espen's words here not mine ;-) H.W. -----Original Message----- From: FHPREMACH at aol.com To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 2:07 AM Subject: Re: Espen's Reed Valves >In a message dated 5/1/99 6:37:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owly at mcn.net >writes: > ><< >Offcourse.......you are right , I have wanted to try a 4 stroke with > reed > >valves > >in the intake and run a camshaft thats good for top end...... > >Espen > > >> >We tried this on some race bikes years ago. Reeds reduced the airflow and >added length to the inlet tract that changed the tuned length. If it bore any >real use, the F1 guys would be all over it. >Fred > From bshaw at connix.com Fri May 7 13:45:57 1999 From: bshaw at connix.com (Bill Shaw) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 09:45:57 -0400 Subject: Turbo Parts Message-ID: Just thought I'd mention if anyone is looking for turbo parts (or Corvette parts) for a project, you might find something interesting at Callaway's garage sale. Go to www.callawaycars.com and click on garage sale. bs "By the time their numbers had dwindled from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry'" From jballeng at vt.edu Fri May 7 14:34:29 1999 From: jballeng at vt.edu (James Ballenger) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 10:34:29 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: Orin Eman wrote: > > You need a spray can of positive photoresist. Radio shack > > probably has it. You spray it on the clean board (two light coats). Radio Shack sells both a dry and solution board etching kit, dunno the details but it might be worth checking out, they are both very inexpensive. James Ballenger From gderian at oh.verio.com Fri May 7 16:40:47 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:40:47 -0400 Subject: OT max economy, engine stress Message-ID: Actually heavier component would have the inertia required to offset the gas loads. When the piston is in the top half of its stroke, the rod is in tension because the piston is slowing from peak velocity upwards to a stop then accelerating to a peak velocity downwards. Gas pressure pushes the piston down and depending on the rpm, either relieves the tension in the rod (high rpm) or compresses it (low rpm). The heavier the piston the higher the rod tension and the more gas pressure you can have without buckling the rod. Of course on the overlap stroke, the rod sees full tension since there is no gas pressure. You have to model the engine components and know the strength of your parts and then come up with a boost vs. rpm curve that doesn't break anything. Heavy parts will allow more boost at low rpm but will limit max rpm and therefore max power. Gary Derian > In regards to the Statement about "Nearly WOT at low rpm is the key to > good economy.....load the rods and pistons though because their inertia > cannot offset the gas" > > If what you say is true, then wouldn't lightweight aluminum or alloy > connecting rods as well as lightweight alloy pistons and pins help to > offset the inertia prob you are referring to? > > Todd....!! > From gderian at oh.verio.com Fri May 7 16:40:48 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:40:48 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: You have to stop thinking in a 3 dimensional Newtonian space and think in a 4 dimensional space-time continuum. Fortunately, EFI operates in 3D space for now, in a few years, the electronics will take advantage of quantum effects. Gary Derian > Thanks for that insight Mike! > > However, I must ask: > > You mention that the Sun warps space... > > If Space is a LACK of everything, thus meaning that it is truly NOTHING, > then how can NOTHING be WARPED?? > > Please explain? > > Thanks! > > Todd....!! > From gderian at oh.verio.com Fri May 7 16:40:50 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:40:50 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: If a stock TPI runs out of breath at 4800 rpm on a 350, it will run out much sooner on a 434, something like 3800 rpm. My personal view is that it starts running out at 4000 on a 350 and 3200 rpm on a 434. Just as your turbos are coming on, your intake will go out to lunch. Using boost to cover up a poorly flowing intake or exhaust system works to limit the efficiency of the engine. I recommend a proper large flow passage intake system. The tube ID should be approximately the same as your intake valve. If you intend to run in the 3000 to 5000 rpm range, the TPI tubes are OK for length, but too small a diameter. If you intend to run above 5000 rpm, you need shorter and larger diameter tubes. Don't forget, the only time you will be below 3000 rpm is in first gear where you will be traction limited anyway. Gary Derian > Thanks to Ken, Todd & Gary for your answers regarding CFM. Perhaps I didn't > ask the question correctly. A stock TPI runs out of flow about 4800 rpm on > a stock 350 ci engine. I'm looking for an EFI intake system for my twin > turbo 434 ci engine. > From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 7 17:02:11 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 13:02:11 -0400 Subject: Vapor vs Atom, Coated vs Plain Intake Air Temps Message-ID: OK, now I'm inna twist. Speaking of a SBC, just so we have the same reference frame: The intake port area in the cylinder head for a stockish engine is about 190 cc. Each cylinder is +- 700cc. The intake valve is only open, for a small period of time. It's been stated that the back side of the valve may be as hot as 600dF With it that hot, will coating the port with a ceramic barrier treatment really be that great of performance "gainer". What you lose is the "vaporization" factor, and in a batch fired system it's all puddled anyway, so atomiization will be about a constant. For this notion, of higher Fuel Pressure causes better atomization, well again, how much effect can that really have if your firing at a closed intake valve, like a batch fired gm TPI?. Is it just me?, or does the notion of larger plenum intakes for lower lift cams make more sense?. Bruce From A70Duster at aol.com Fri May 7 17:10:20 1999 From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 13:10:20 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: In a message dated 5/7/1999 10:46:08 AM Mountain Daylight Time, gderian at oh.verio.com writes: << > Thanks for that insight Mike! > > However, I must ask: > > You mention that the Sun warps space... > > If Space is a LACK of everything, thus meaning that it is truly NOTHING, > then how can NOTHING be WARPED?? > > Please explain? > > Thanks! > > Todd....!! > >> Oh God, U had to ask. Space, like a vacuum and where satellites cruse in orbit, is where something can exist. Even space is quantized. Very, very, very many packets of space exist together to create the visible universe that we live in. Anything with mass distorts the "uniform" close proximity packing of space packets. So space is something. It's massless, energyless and momentumless. But it is a region where mass, energy and momentum can exist. The are MANY questions on regions where normal space does not exist (i.e., Black holes, beyond our universe for example). Now returning to EFI...... From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 7 17:20:51 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 13:20:51 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: I tend to think other wise. While not at the HP level we're talking here, for my 355 SBC running a cross fire manifold with runners slight larger than 3/4"x3/4". It will push a 3100 car into the 13.7s. While shortning the runners helped some, it was increasing the plenum volume that really made the difference. I think the TPIs real downfall is that goofy plenum. Other than the Accel $$$$$$$ revised set up no one that I know of has tried reengineering the plenum, in any other form to use the stock runners. The Accel part has always gotten good reveiws. My contention is removing the EGR, and lowering the "Belly" of the plenum, or raising the roof to get a plenum that approches engine displacement. Grumpy Gonna hit GP Dr Office later, and see if he has any better car mags. > If a stock TPI runs out of breath at 4800 rpm on a 350, it will run out much > sooner on a 434, something like 3800 rpm. My personal view is that it > starts running out at 4000 on a 350 and 3200 rpm on a 434. Just as your > turbos are coming on, your intake will go out to lunch. Using boost to > cover up a poorly flowing intake or exhaust system works to limit the > efficiency of the engine. > I recommend a proper large flow passage intake system. The tube ID should > be approximately the same as your intake valve. If you intend to run in the > 3000 to 5000 rpm range, the TPI tubes are OK for length, but too small a > diameter. If you intend to run above 5000 rpm, you need shorter and larger > diameter tubes. > Don't forget, the only time you will be below 3000 rpm is in first gear > where you will be traction limited anyway. > Gary Derian > > Thanks to Ken, Todd & Gary for your answers regarding CFM. Perhaps I > didn't > > ask the question correctly. A stock TPI runs out of flow about 4800 rpm > on > > a stock 350 ci engine. I'm looking for an EFI intake system for my twin > > turbo 434 ci engine. From Jason_Leone at amat.com Fri May 7 17:28:44 1999 From: Jason_Leone at amat.com (Jason_Leone at amat.com) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 13:28:44 -0400 Subject: Astronomy/Mustang? Message-ID: << >> I didn't read the beginning of this thread, but I'd deduce that you've never heard of "Dark Matter". Dark Matter is the term used to describe the "nothing" of outer space, and it's been accepted that over 90% of the Universe is composed of Dark Matter. Astronomers can't really positively determine what it's composed of yet, but we know it exists by the way it bends light coming from VERY distant galaxies (like ones 4 billion+ light years away, on the fringe of Hubble's optical limits). It's an astronomy thing, but it has far reaching implications beyond that particular scientific field. Also, the top post eludes to the fact that in space, the shortest distance between two points is actually a curved line. Newton vs. Einstein will be decided in space, when Gravity Probe B gets launched (late '99 or '00?). For info on Gravity Probe B (kick ass experiments) check out http://einstein.stanford.edu/gen_int/story_of_gpb/gpbstory1.html Anybody get their new Summit catalog in the mail? How about that "QuickStang" car? Pretty damn ugly, but capable of 1000hp. BTW, what was the name of that 800hp, 10L Ford Mustang purpose built by SVT a couple years ago? That car set the 0-100-0 record...in about 11.3 seconds or so. Yikes. Jason '93 SLC From WLundquist at aol.com Fri May 7 18:14:18 1999 From: WLundquist at aol.com (WLundquist at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:14:18 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: With regards to the engine builder, how did he select the turbos for the application? Were the turbos sized for their intended use? boost pressure, operating rpm? If you refer to Hugh MacInness book "Turbochargers" page 34, it is easy to calculate air flow with the turbos. Another point, plenum volume is a deciding factor in single or dual plane manifold using carbs, an individual runner manifold without a plenum for a 350 chevy requires 330cfm per cylinder, depending on max rpm. TPIS has flow information on stock and modified plenums, runners and bases, from their Insiders Hints book, those numbers would help you determine if the stock intake system will work for your application. Be realistic on what you want the motor to do. There are axial and turbo'd TPI systems out there that function great. If you would like, I can work up some specifics, I would need the compressor maps, intended max rpm to detemine your setup. you can e-mail me at WLundquist at aol.com From fluffy at snurgle.org Fri May 7 18:44:56 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:44:56 -0400 Subject: SV: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement Message-ID: On Fri, 7 May 1999, Gustaf Ulander wrote: > Trust us, there IS no typing error, in fact, those high pressures has been > discussed in european magazines for the last 3 years. Okay, perhaps this would be a more effective tactic: If the pressures are as high as claimed, *why* don't the injectors break? I have no opinion on the pressure myself. :} From bearbvd at sni.net Fri May 7 19:04:58 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 15:04:58 -0400 Subject: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement Message-ID: When I see an injector which >> as a breaking pressure of 1600 bar, I will have no difficulty in >> believing that the system produces that pressure. ;-) H.W. >> > >The Bosch book says that their systems use between 350 and 1600 bar and >doesn't say anything wich car make uses what pressure. > >Sorry but I have not changed my mind :) > Don't be sorry, you are absolutely right. I have not looked up the injector pressures yet, but, from the Bosch bible-- Diesel Fuel Injection Bosch # 1-987-723-602 ISBN # 1-56091-5420 Page 55 for PE type in-line fuel pumps Type-------------Maximum rated pressure M----------------400 bar (four hundred bar) A----------------600 bar (six hundred bar) MW------------900 bar (nine hundred bar) P1--3000-------800 bar (eight hundred bar) p7100--8000--1150 bar (one thousand one hundred fifty bar) No misprints in the book or in my post, and _NO_ there are no missing decimals in my post, either. Wrote out the numbers to save any outhouse lawyers any more nonsense/bandwidth on the subject. These numbers are in table form on page 55 of the Bosch book, but they are also stated , and the same, in other locations in the book. So it is well beyond highly doubtful that these numbers are incorrect!! Regards, Greg From Apple at maxmax.com Fri May 7 19:42:31 1999 From: Apple at maxmax.com (Dan Llewellyn2) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 15:42:31 -0400 Subject: Astronomy/Mustang? Message-ID: Well as long as we are off subject... Space is extent, energy is activity, matter is aggregation, time is progression, etc. They are all distinctly differently and exactly linked together. Amount of space in universe is determined by amount of matter (since matter bends space inwards). You can't think of space as 'stuff'. Stuff is matter. Dan L Jason_Leone at amat.com wrote: > << the sun, and although that particular experiment was flawed, it's been > established since that gravity does in fact cause light to bend.> > > If Space is a LACK of everything, thus meaning that it is truly NOTHING, > then how can NOTHING be WARPED??>>> > > I didn't read the beginning of this thread, but I'd deduce that you've never > heard of "Dark Matter". Dark Matter is the term used to describe the "nothing" > of outer space, and it's been accepted that over 90% of the Universe is composed > of Dark Matter. Astronomers can't really positively determine what it's composed > of yet, but we know it exists by the way it bends light coming from VERY distant > galaxies (like ones 4 billion+ light years away, on the fringe of Hubble's > optical limits). It's an astronomy thing, but it has far reaching implications > beyond that particular scientific field. Also, the top post eludes to the fact > that in space, the shortest distance between two points is actually a curved > line. Newton vs. Einstein will be decided in space, when Gravity Probe B gets > launched (late '99 or '00?). For info on Gravity Probe B (kick ass experiments) > check out http://einstein.stanford.edu/gen_int/story_of_gpb/gpbstory1.html > > Anybody get their new Summit catalog in the mail? How about that "QuickStang" > car? Pretty damn ugly, but capable of 1000hp. BTW, what was the name of that > 800hp, 10L Ford Mustang purpose built by SVT a couple years ago? That car set > the 0-100-0 record...in about 11.3 seconds or so. Yikes. > > Jason > '93 SLC From wsherwin at idirect.com Fri May 7 21:22:13 1999 From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:22:13 -0400 Subject: FI pressure Message-ID: > Next time, ya do it it's kinda neat to get a knock sensor, and scope, and >"look" at the injector for opening, and closing. Kinda like using a >diagnostic scope for looking at firing voltages etc onna ICE. >Grumpy Sounds like the makings of a neat idea. Can you expand a bit on this please? Walt. From mwichstr at online.no Fri May 7 21:33:54 1999 From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:33:54 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: > > >> > We tried this on some race bikes years ago. Reeds reduced the airflow and > added length to the inlet tract that changed the tuned length. If it bore any > real use, the F1 guys would be all over it. > Fred The F1 guys dont cruise their cars do they?Torque at 2000rpm is not an isue for F1 guys. Reeds could be bypassed at high rpm.I dont have any proof that a good engineered reed setup would work great I just belive it, when Im thinking about it a two walve engine with high mass valve train would bennefit the most , because of the small dynamic range of system.If you are conserned of reed reduction of airflow, think what a regular valve is doing at high rpms. Espen From mwichstr at online.no Fri May 7 21:36:20 1999 From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:36:20 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: ---------- > We tried this on some race bikes years ago. Reeds reduced the airflow and > added length to the inlet tract that changed the tuned length. If it bore any > real use, the F1 guys would be all over it. > Fred Can you shear some more details of you experiment? How much did you loose at top end? Espen From hobiegary at earthlink.net Fri May 7 21:50:26 1999 From: hobiegary at earthlink.net (GARY) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:50:26 -0400 Subject: New Member (me) Introduction Message-ID: Greeting and Salutations Fellows, I am honored to have your attention. After looking at some of the archives, I see I am in the company of a distinguished group of scholars and their colleagues. Though I don't expect to be able to meet the level of expertise and education of most of you on the list, I do feel that my input might be of interest if nothing else. I will describe myself here and then make a couple of separate posts describing my quest. That way, if the post is quoted when answered, you won't have to re-read all of this particular post. I am a self taught mechanic as my hobby. I have a Subaru. I am trained in electricity but my electronic knowledge is very limited. But at least I have some general knowledge which helps me to understand a lot of what is discussed here. It will hopefully allow me to digest any help offered to me as well. I just work on my own cars, don't do any repairs for others. I like to improve my car's performance where possible. I have two quests to ask you all about. One is about a computer glitch existent in some Subarus, the other a modification I'd like to do. If I see where I can be of help to any of you, I'll take that opportunity. But judging by the quality of the posts I've read from the list, I don't expect to be of much help. Still, I'll be a good pupil, 'promise. Well that's about it for now. I'll follow with two posts, one for each of my queries. Thanks for listening (looking). -- GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Fri May 7 21:56:19 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:56:19 -0400 Subject: Vapor vs Atom, Coated vs Plain Intake Air Temps Message-ID: -> For this notion, of higher Fuel Pressure causes better atomization, -> well again, how much effect can that really have if your firing at a -> closed intake valve, like a batch fired gm TPI?. A typical Bendix-type injector only "atomizes" for a small part of its cycle. In time per cycle, maybe 1/3. In flow per cycle, probably 1/2. The rest of the time it's just pissing down the runner as the pintle moves on and off the seat. -> period of time. It's been stated that the back side of the valve may -> be as hot as 600dF -> With it that hot, will coating the port with a ceramic barrier -> treatment Heat transfer requires time. You're moving several port-volumes worth of air through the port ever few milliseconds. There's not time to heat much of the intake charge. This is where a little empirical experimentation might be worthwhile. From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Fri May 7 22:25:49 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:25:49 -0400 Subject: FI pressure Message-ID: The knock sensor is just a microphone. If you tap it with something it'll make a signal that can be seen on a scope. If are able to attach it to the same piece of metal that your injector is in (on a flow bench for example) you can see on the scope when the injector opens and closes. Put the injector voltage on one channel and the knock sensor signal on the other and you can see when the injector opens in relation to when the voltage tells it to open. Lots more details are online in the injector flowbench article in the projects section of the diy_efi page. --steve Walter Sherwin wrote: > > > Next time, ya do it it's kinda neat to get a knock sensor, and scope, > and > >"look" at the injector for opening, and closing. Kinda like using a > >diagnostic scope for looking at firing voltages etc onna ICE. > >Grumpy > > Sounds like the makings of a neat idea. Can you expand a bit on this > please? > > Walt. -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 7 22:31:31 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:31:31 -0400 Subject: FI pressure Message-ID: If you go over to the home page, there is a project about a flow bench and has more info on it. They used some chrysler knock sensors, but any piezio detector should work. With a dual trace, look at apllied signal to injector, and "out" from the knock sensor. Grumpy > > Next time, ya do it it's kinda neat to get a knock sensor, and scope, > and > >"look" at the injector for opening, and closing. Kinda like using a > >diagnostic scope for looking at firing voltages etc onna ICE. > >Grumpy > > Sounds like the makings of a neat idea. Can you expand a bit on this > please? > Walt. From hobiegary at earthlink.net Fri May 7 22:33:55 1999 From: hobiegary at earthlink.net (GARY) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:33:55 -0400 Subject: Altering Ignition Timing via CAS signal manipulation Message-ID: Well, the title should explain what I'd like to accomplish. I would like to manipulate the electrical signal coming off of my crankshaft angle sensor to affect a change in my ignition timing from what the ECU would normally have it offer. My 98 Subaru Legacy 2.2 Liter has a magnetic crank angle sensor. This is called a Hall Effect Sensor, right? Anyway, it reads one or more rotating protrusions of metal on the crank shaft pulley. I am assuming that all four spark plugs fire each time a given cylinder charge ignites. So I am assuming that if I delay the signal by, for example, 99 percent of the time between pulses that I would be effectively advancing timing by 3.6 degrees since it would be firing .99 x 360 degrees late. Right? If so, how can I build such a device and make it adjustable. In the archives I saw there was a guy in Australia trying to do something like this to a Commodore (sp?) and he was refereed to using some piece of equipment out of a 77 Toronado or a 198x chev. truck. Is he listening, did he get it accomplished. Has anyone done this sort of thing and am I out of my mind? Thanks all! -- GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net From hobiegary at earthlink.net Fri May 7 22:34:06 1999 From: hobiegary at earthlink.net (GARY) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:34:06 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: Hello, A lot of people have had a problem with a stuttering acceleration in Subarus. I offered up an hypothesis along with a fix for the problem. My hypothesis was first rejected by Subaru of America, then later supported in a Technical Service Bulletin. Rather than go into detail here, I'll supply the URL for my website on the matter. When you go there, scroll down for a lot of links. http://home.earthlink.net/~hobiegary/hesitation.htm Well even though Subaru claims to have a fix for the problem via a new ECU, I have yet to hear of anyone who could jump through all the necessary hoops to get a new ECU *and* find out that the new one actually cures the problem. So I am not holding my breath on that note. What I am doing however, is planning on an improvement on my primary fix. The ECU is a OBD2 type with EPROM. It can be "reset," to loose stored trouble logs, by disconnecting the battery for about a half hour. I need to electronically dampen or trim or filter (or whatever it is called!) the signal from the knock sensor to the ECU. What is happening is that the ECU is interpreting non detonation noises as detonation and reacting accordingly. This leads to piss-poor performance to say the least. I have gone the mechanical route, buffering the signal by padding the mechanical interface between the sensor and the engine block. What I would like to do is simply reduce the sensitivity of the sensor. That is what I did mechanically and it seemed to work pretty good. The problem though is that it is a little iffy and esoteric and problematic and lacking consistency. It is not solid state enough to suit me. I'd rather dampen the signal electrically. I tried hooking up a variable capacitor in parallel with it. I thought that this would let any voltage spikes bleed (partially) to ground and lessen the signal strength arriving at the ECU. I had trouble with this method because as soon as I turned the capacitor a certain amount, I'd get a trouble code and would have to shut down and restart. I'll guess that the ECU sends a monitor current through the sensor and detects when it is not at the proper impedance. It didn't seem to help either. I am not convinced that I was doing the wrong thing either. I just could not get any positive results. I also wonder if I rather should be using a variable inductor in series with the sensor. Wouldn't this choke a signal without greatly affecting monitor current? I guess it would depend if the monitor is looking at impedance with a/c or looking at resistance with d/c. Comments? Any other ways I should consider reducing the amplitude of this signal? What about the ECU, is there anything I can do there to help the situation? I thank you for your attention Fellows and thank you in advance for any suggestions. -- GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 7 23:01:08 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:01:08 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: What application is folks talking about?. F1 or motorcycles?. Big Problem with the reeds is do to inertia the basiclly stay open at more than 2,000 rpm, in say a Yamahahah 350 2 stroke motorcycle. They will stop reversion at low speed but not at higher speeds Bruce > > > >> > > We tried this on some race bikes years ago. Reeds reduced the airflow and > > added length to the inlet tract that changed the tuned length. If it bore > any > > real use, the F1 guys would be all over it. > > Fred > The F1 guys dont cruise their cars do they?Torque at 2000rpm is not an isue > for F1 guys. > Reeds could be bypassed at high rpm.I dont have any proof that a good > engineered reed setup would work great I just belive it, when Im thinking > about it a two walve engine with high mass valve train would bennefit the > most , > because of the small dynamic range of system.If you are conserned of reed > reduction of airflow, think what a regular valve is doing at high rpms. > Espen From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 7 23:33:12 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:33:12 -0400 Subject: Altering Ignition Timing via CAS signal manipulation Message-ID: At 03:32 PM 5/7/99 -0700, you wrote: >Well, the title should explain what I'd like to accomplish. I would >like to manipulate the electrical signal coming off of my crankshaft >angle sensor to affect a change in my ignition timing from what the ECU >would normally have it offer. > >My 98 Subaru Legacy 2.2 Liter has a magnetic crank angle sensor. This >is called a Hall Effect Sensor, right? Anyway, it reads one or more >rotating protrusions of metal on the crank shaft pulley. > >I am assuming that all four spark plugs fire each time a given cylinder >charge ignites. So I am assuming that if I delay the signal by, for >example, 99 percent of the time between pulses that I would be >effectively advancing timing by 3.6 degrees since it would be firing .99 >x 360 degrees late. Right? > Umm.. no.. If it uses DIS and has 2 coils, one plug fires for the compression stroke while it's paired cyl (on the same coil) fires on exhaust. If it has a seperate coil for each cyl, then it fires each individually, same as if it had a distributor. >If so, how can I build such a device and make it adjustable. What would you want this for anyway? to adjust the spark, modify the code in the chip. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From clarencewood at centuryinter.net Fri May 7 23:57:53 1999 From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:57:53 -0400 Subject: Astronomy/Mustang? Message-ID: Thanks for the Gravity Probe B web site!! Incidentally, F1 cars do 0-100-0 in 6 sec.; have heard that this years cars do it in 5 sec. At 10:27 AM 5/7/99 -0700, you wrote: > ><<the sun, and although that particular experiment was flawed, it's been >established since that gravity does in fact cause light to bend.> > >If Space is a LACK of everything, thus meaning that it is truly NOTHING, >then how can NOTHING be WARPED??>>> > >I didn't read the beginning of this thread, but I'd deduce that you've never >heard of "Dark Matter". Dark Matter is the term used to describe the "nothing" >of outer space, and it's been accepted that over 90% of the Universe is composed >of Dark Matter. Astronomers can't really positively determine what it's composed >of yet, but we know it exists by the way it bends light coming from VERY distant >galaxies (like ones 4 billion+ light years away, on the fringe of Hubble's >optical limits). It's an astronomy thing, but it has far reaching implications >beyond that particular scientific field. Also, the top post eludes to the fact >that in space, the shortest distance between two points is actually a curved >line. Newton vs. Einstein will be decided in space, when Gravity Probe B gets >launched (late '99 or '00?). For info on Gravity Probe B (kick ass experiments) >check out http://einstein.stanford.edu/gen_int/story_of_gpb/gpbstory1.html > >Anybody get their new Summit catalog in the mail? How about that "QuickStang" >car? Pretty damn ugly, but capable of 1000hp. BTW, what was the name of that >800hp, 10L Ford Mustang purpose built by SVT a couple years ago? That car set >the 0-100-0 record...in about 11.3 seconds or so. Yikes. > >Jason >'93 SLC > > > > IZCC #3426 1982 280ZX Turbo GL 1966 El Camino 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine) 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower Clarence Wood Software&Such... clarencewood at centuryinter.net Savannah, TN. From wilman at hkabc.net Sat May 8 00:46:00 1999 From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 20:46:00 -0400 Subject: Altering Ignition Timing via CAS signal manipulation Message-ID: ---------- > From: David A. Cooley > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Altering Ignition Timing via CAS signal manipulation > Date: Saturday, May 08, 1999 7:32 AM > > At 03:32 PM 5/7/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Well, the title should explain what I'd like to accomplish. I would > >like to manipulate the electrical signal coming off of my crankshaft > >angle sensor to affect a change in my ignition timing from what the ECU > >would normally have it offer. > > > >My 98 Subaru Legacy 2.2 Liter has a magnetic crank angle sensor. This > >is called a Hall Effect Sensor, right? Anyway, it reads one or more > >rotating protrusions of metal on the crank shaft pulley. > > > >I am assuming that all four spark plugs fire each time a given cylinder > >charge ignites. So I am assuming that if I delay the signal by, for > >example, 99 percent of the time between pulses that I would be > >effectively advancing timing by 3.6 degrees since it would be firing .99 > >x 360 degrees late. Right? > > > > Umm.. no.. If it uses DIS and has 2 coils, one plug fires for the > compression stroke while it's paired cyl (on the same coil) fires on exhaust. > If it has a seperate coil for each cyl, then it fires each individually, > same as if it had a distributor. > > >If so, how can I build such a device and make it adjustable. > > What would you want this for anyway? to adjust the spark, modify the code > in the chip. > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== Gary, The Subaru's in our market do not have removable Eproms in their ECU's. So editing the code in the chip may be a bit difficult. However, there is an item from Superchips that can adjust ignition timing electronically after 6 wires have been hooked up. The adjustment is rev dependent but not load dependent. So, there are limitations. The thing is called Iconrace and you can read more about it on http://www.superchips.co.uk. From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 8 01:17:38 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 21:17:38 -0400 Subject: Turbo Parts Message-ID: Bill Shaw wrote: > > Just thought I'd mention if anyone is looking for turbo parts (or Corvette > parts) for a project, you might find something interesting at Callaway's > garage sale. Go to www.callawaycars.com and click on garage sale. > > bs > > "By the time their numbers had dwindled from 50 > to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry'" Boy, this really is a garage sale. there's 32 of these: Bosch Fuel Injector. flows 8.95 grams/sec @44.1psi High Impedence. Price is $46 dollars each. I recommend checking the site out.... Shannen From RRauscher at nni.com Sat May 8 01:53:23 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 21:53:23 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: Yeah, and them' thar' yaamies' go like stink too... BobR. who ain't get'n rid of his. Bruce wrote: >What application is folks talking about?. >F1 or motorcycles?. >Big Problem with the reeds is do to inertia the basiclly stay open at more >than 2,000 rpm, in say a Yamahahah 350 2 stroke motorcycle. They will stop >reversion at low speed but not at higher speeds >Bruce > > > >> > > We tried this on some race bikes years ago. Reeds reduced the airflow and > > added length to the inlet tract that changed the tuned length. If it bore > any > > real use, the F1 guys would be all over it. > > Fred > The F1 guys dont cruise their cars do they?Torque at 2000rpm is not an isue > for F1 guys. > Reeds could be bypassed at high rpm.I dont have any proof that a good > engineered reed setup would work great I just belive it, when Im thinking > about it a two walve engine with high mass valve train would bennefit the > most , > because of the small dynamic range of system.If you are conserned of reed > reduction of airflow, think what a regular valve is doing at high rpms. > Espen From claresnyder at home.com Sat May 8 02:06:50 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:06:50 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: GARY To: EFI DIY mailing list Sent: Friday, May 07, 1999 6:33 PM Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus > Hello, > > A lot of people have had a problem with a stuttering acceleration in > Subarus. I offered up an hypothesis along with a fix for the problem. > My hypothesis was first rejected by Subaru of America, then later > supported in a Technical Service Bulletin. > > Rather than go into detail here, I'll supply the URL for my website on > the matter. When you go there, scroll down for a lot of links. > http://home.earthlink.net/~hobiegary/hesitation.htm > > Well even though Subaru claims to have a fix for the problem via a new > ECU, I have yet to hear of anyone who could jump through all the > necessary hoops to get a new ECU *and* find out that the new one > actually cures the problem. So I am not holding my breath on that note. > > What I am doing however, is planning on an improvement on my primary > fix. The ECU is a OBD2 type with EPROM. It can be "reset," to loose > stored trouble logs, by disconnecting the battery for about a half > hour. I need to electronically dampen or trim or filter (or whatever it > is called!) the signal from the knock sensor to the ECU. > > What is happening is that the ECU is interpreting non detonation noises > as detonation and reacting accordingly. This leads to piss-poor > performance to say the least. I have gone the mechanical route, > buffering the signal by padding the mechanical interface between the > sensor and the engine block. > > What I would like to do is simply reduce the sensitivity of the sensor. > That is what I did mechanically and it seemed to work pretty good. The > problem though is that it is a little iffy and esoteric and problematic > and lacking consistency. It is not solid state enough to suit me. I'd > rather dampen the signal electrically. > > I tried hooking up a variable capacitor in parallel with it. I thought > that this would let any voltage spikes bleed (partially) to ground and > lessen the signal strength arriving at the ECU. I had trouble with this > method because as soon as I turned the capacitor a certain amount, I'd > get a trouble code and would have to shut down and restart. I'll guess > that the ECU sends a monitor current through the sensor and detects when > it is not at the proper impedance. It didn't seem to help either. I am > not convinced that I was doing the wrong thing either. I just could not > get any positive results. > > I also wonder if I rather should be using a variable inductor in series > with the sensor. Wouldn't this choke a signal without greatly affecting > monitor current? I guess it would depend if the monitor is looking at > impedance with a/c or looking at resistance with d/c. > > Comments? Any other ways I should consider reducing the amplitude of > this signal? What about the ECU, is there anything I can do there to > help the situation? > > I thank you for your attention Fellows and thank you in advance for any > suggestions. > > -- > GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net > Have you thought about a high resistance pot set up as a voltage divider on the sensor? Cut the output down to about 80% and see if it still false triggers. Then take it back up to the point where the performance "just" starts to deteriorate. I have not tried this, but as the sensor is just a microphone, I figure a volume control should do the trick. From claresnyder at home.com Sat May 8 02:09:31 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:09:31 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Plecan To: Sent: Friday, May 07, 1999 7:01 PM Subject: Re: Espen's Reed Valves > What application is folks talking about?. > F1 or motorcycles?. > Big Problem with the reeds is do to inertia the basiclly stay open at more > than 2,000 rpm, in say a Yamahahah 350 2 stroke motorcycle. They will stop > reversion at low speed but not at higher speeds > Bruce > All the idea of using reed valves would do is improve the low end torque - exactly what we want, while staying open at high speeds to reduce obstruction - which we also want. If they lock open at 2000 RPM on a 2 stroke you should get some effect up to about 4000 RPM on a 4 stroker - which sounds pretty good to me. From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 8 03:11:01 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:11:01 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: >>The ECU is a OBD2 type with EPROM. > > What I would like to do is simply reduce the sensitivity of the sensor. That's not the problem as I see it. It's seeing a knock you don't want it to see. That is a problem with all these dumb acoustic sensors, only cure is going to ionization kknock detection, please refer to the archives and search ION. > > That is what I did mechanically and it seemed to work pretty good. The > > problem though is that it is a little iffy and esoteric and problematic > > and lacking consistency. It is not solid state enough to suit me. I'd > > rather dampen the signal electrically. OK, once you get it dampened how ya know it really works when you need it?. Ya just listen for it?. I'd be a heck of alot more curious about the cause for it, what gas are you using. operating temp., spark plug heat range/style. If you've already addressed these fine, but you didn't mention them. I just don't beleive in automatically disabling parts of the ecm. How about the self diagnostics of OBDII, what are it's parameters, and what effect would it have on it. > > I tried hooking up a variable capacitor in parallel with it. I thought > > that this would let any voltage spikes bleed (partially) to ground and > > lessen the signal strength arriving at the ECU. I had trouble with this > > method because as soon as I turned the capacitor a certain amount, I'd > > get a trouble code and would have to shut down and restart. I'll guess > > that the ECU sends a monitor current through the sensor and detects when > > it is not at the proper impedance. It didn't seem to help either. I am > > not convinced that I was doing the wrong thing either. I just could not > > get any positive results. > > I thank you for your attention Fellows and thank you in advance for any > > suggestions. > > GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net > > Have you thought about a high resistance pot set up as a voltage divider > on the sensor? Cut the output down to about 80% and see if it still false > triggers. Then take it back up to the point where the performance "just" > starts to deteriorate. I have not tried this, but as the sensor is just a > microphone, I figure a volume control should do the trick. From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 8 03:18:29 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:18:29 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: 4,000 on a 175cc per cylinder engine (4 stroke). As the air flow goes up your gonna need large reeds, inertia goes up, and they drop in max rev effectiveness. Or go to LOTS of little one, and then port volume goes to h---. Again, the is just on th Yamahaha, and old info, but I haven't head of any manufacturer going to reeds lately for auto use.... Grumpy > > What application is folks talking about?. > > F1 or motorcycles?. > > Big Problem with the reeds is do to inertia the basiclly stay open at more > > than 2,000 rpm, in say a Yamahahah 350 2 stroke motorcycle. They will > stop > > reversion at low speed but not at higher speeds > > Bruce > All the idea of using reed valves would do is improve the low end torque - > exactly what we want, while staying open at high speeds to reduce > obstruction - which we also want. If they lock open at 2000 RPM on a 2 > stroke you should get some effect up to about 4000 RPM on a 4 stroker - > which sounds pretty good to me. From nwester at eidnet.org Sat May 8 03:29:30 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:29:30 -0400 Subject: Jeep 4.0 Liter MPI (circa 1987-1991) Message-ID: James, These things used to have problem with oil contamination of the sensor (rearward of the engine) responsible for cam position to the ECU. Causes extended cranking, and eventually ends up as a no start. Another fault of these things was cranking speed. Hall effect sensors can run low speed sensing quite well--AC output type need a higher RPM to get the signal high enough for reference. If you're 100% sure on the fuel pressure, fuel filter and ignition secondary--check out that sensor. Lyndon IP TECH -----Original Message----- From: Simpson, James H To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 5:13 PM Subject: Jeep 4.0 Liter MPI (circa 1987-1991) >Hi, > >I have a 1987 Jeep Cherokee 4.0 Liter MPI engine installed in a 1982 Jeep >CJ7. I have discovered that AMC used a Renault (Renix?) computer system in >the 1987-1991 Cherokees, and that information on this computer system is, so >far, impossible to obtain. I'm having some troubles starting the engine; it >cranks for several seconds (15-30) before it starts, if it starts at all. >I've been through all of the static tests (sensor resistance/function, fuel >pressure, etc.) and everything looks OK. I've been looking for information >on computer codes and commands with no success. > >Q. Does anyone have information on the Renix computer system? > >Q. Is it possible to retrofit a different computer system to this engine? >Has anyone done this? I guess GM would be my first choice. > >Thanks for any help you might be able to give! > >Jim Simpson > > From owly at mcn.net Sat May 8 03:46:45 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:46:45 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: Bruce: You wrote: >What application is folks talking about?. >F1 or motorcycles?. >Big Problem with the reeds is do to inertia the basiclly stay open at more >than 2,000 rpm, in say a Yamahahah 350 2 stroke motorcycle. They will stop >reversion at low speed but not at higher speeds >Bruce > Let me point out that in a 4 cycle engine reversion is only a problem at low RPM .... that RPM depends on camming and the inertia of the air column in the intake (intake design). A properly designed reed valve that stayed open above a specific RPM might therefore be a real asset in a 4 cycle engine. H.W. From fraser at forbin.com Sat May 8 04:14:42 1999 From: fraser at forbin.com (Jennifer and Brock Fraser) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:14:42 -0400 Subject: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement Message-ID: > do however find it highly improbable that a fuel injection system > could have a pressure range of 1600bar with a breaking pressure of a > small fraction of that number..... I have yet to see any injector > breaking pressures listed which suggest line pressures of this > magnitude. That such pressures could be associated with a common rail > system is simply beyond belief....... What you are failing to realize is that (unit pump, HEUI, EUI, or common rail) electronic Diesel injectors are much more than just poppet valves. There's no such thing as a popping pressure on an electronic injector, so the very fact the "local pump shop" that was mentioned went looking for maximum popping pressures shows that they had a feeble grasp on what the current state of injection technology was. It's likely that they might not even be servicing any of these systems yet. Good 'ole electrons control when the injector opens and closes, not a mechanical pop pressure. There's no mistake, no decimal place error, no magazine mix-ups, or anything like that. The more pressure you have, the shorter you can make the ignition event, and the better mixture quality you can achieve. You can run more holes in the nozzle tip, allowing a lower swirl ratio. It's a systems approach. With electronic control of the injector, you can rate shape and do pilot injection... mostly for the sake of noise but also to help NOx formation and cold starting. Somebody related the tensile strength of aluminum to the pressures present in these types of systems. That's why the rail on a common rail system is usually made of forged steel! Cast materials typically won't work because the porosity is too high. Lines don't have to be that exotic, because the ID is so small that even though the pressure is very high, the area being acted upon is not. The line OD is very big compared to the ID. Ratios of 4:1 or 5:1 are typical. The Cummins ISB and ISC engines (at least most of their applications) use Bosch VP44 pumps, which is basically a warmed over version of the good ole rotary pump, but will full electronic authority over timing and delivery. They are headed for common rail. You have to understand that emissions regs drive these changes, and Tier 2 isn't being phased in for "off-road" until 2002 for the most popular of rated power ranges. VP44's still use poppet valves, and are NOT particularly high pressure systems (1000-1100 BAR), although they do a better job than something like a Stanadyne or Lucas rotary pump. Stanadyne or Lucas rotary pumps, as I mentioned before, are only good for about 600-700 BAR. We fondly call these "drip pumps" or even "gravity injection". Possibly this will help illustrate the frame of reference. Most high pressure systems (common rail is the most popular) are being made by Lucas, Bosch, or Denso. They are cost competitive with full-authroity rotary distributor pumps, because distributor pumps still cost WAY more to manufacture than a simple high pressure supply pump. The rail isn't too bad, and the injectors still aren't expensive enough to eat up the pump cost advantage. EUI's are "high-dollar", not only for the injectors but also the massive cam that's required. They do have an advantage over common rail as far as rate shaping, however. Greg's spot-on about the relative danger of split injection lines. You can't build high hydraulic pressure with a leaky line. Our R&D lines that have been instrumented with pressure transducers routinely develop leaks, and believe me, nobody is getting their arms and legs cut off... at least not on a daily basis. :>) Nobody likes a good debate better than me, but I just couldn't take the disbelief any longer. Nobody postulated on what would happen if you tried to inject GASOLINE at 1800 BAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -Brock From nwester at eidnet.org Sat May 8 04:21:27 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:21:27 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: Gary, Knock sensor torque is "extremely" important. Overtorque is going to make the sensor over "sensitive" to any noises. From your post it sounds like you've tried the retorque thing--tried mounting with teflon tape ? Another fix is to isolate the source of the engine noises--ever try a synthetic lube ? Problem with motor mounts ? Driveline noise being translated through to the knock sensor ? I'll have to check the TSB list at the shop for their "fix". Lyndon IP TECH LWester at compuserve.com -----Original Message----- From: GARY To: EFI DIY mailing list Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 7:02 PM Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus >Hello, > >A lot of people have had a problem with a stuttering acceleration in >Subarus. I offered up an hypothesis along with a fix for the problem. >My hypothesis was first rejected by Subaru of America, then later >supported in a Technical Service Bulletin. > >Rather than go into detail here, I'll supply the URL for my website on >the matter. When you go there, scroll down for a lot of links. >http://home.earthlink.net/~hobiegary/hesitation.htm > >Well even though Subaru claims to have a fix for the problem via a new >ECU, I have yet to hear of anyone who could jump through all the >necessary hoops to get a new ECU *and* find out that the new one >actually cures the problem. So I am not holding my breath on that note. > >What I am doing however, is planning on an improvement on my primary >fix. The ECU is a OBD2 type with EPROM. It can be "reset," to loose >stored trouble logs, by disconnecting the battery for about a half >hour. I need to electronically dampen or trim or filter (or whatever it >is called!) the signal from the knock sensor to the ECU. > >What is happening is that the ECU is interpreting non detonation noises >as detonation and reacting accordingly. This leads to piss-poor >performance to say the least. I have gone the mechanical route, >buffering the signal by padding the mechanical interface between the >sensor and the engine block. > >What I would like to do is simply reduce the sensitivity of the sensor. >That is what I did mechanically and it seemed to work pretty good. The >problem though is that it is a little iffy and esoteric and problematic >and lacking consistency. It is not solid state enough to suit me. I'd >rather dampen the signal electrically. > >I tried hooking up a variable capacitor in parallel with it. I thought >that this would let any voltage spikes bleed (partially) to ground and >lessen the signal strength arriving at the ECU. I had trouble with this >method because as soon as I turned the capacitor a certain amount, I'd >get a trouble code and would have to shut down and restart. I'll guess >that the ECU sends a monitor current through the sensor and detects when >it is not at the proper impedance. It didn't seem to help either. I am >not convinced that I was doing the wrong thing either. I just could not >get any positive results. > >I also wonder if I rather should be using a variable inductor in series >with the sensor. Wouldn't this choke a signal without greatly affecting >monitor current? I guess it would depend if the monitor is looking at >impedance with a/c or looking at resistance with d/c. > >Comments? Any other ways I should consider reducing the amplitude of >this signal? What about the ECU, is there anything I can do there to >help the situation? > >I thank you for your attention Fellows and thank you in advance for any >suggestions. > >-- >GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net > From nwester at eidnet.org Sat May 8 04:21:28 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:21:28 -0400 Subject: 730edit program Message-ID: How'r you making out with your program ?? Lyndon IP TECH -----Original Message----- From: Squash To: diy efi Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:34 PM Subject: 730edit program >I've begun work on the 730 AUJP editor. > >If you would like a copy of the VERY immature version, >e-mail me. I'll be posting updates on a website soon. > >I only have the spark table section complete at this >time. I should have all the VE and the high-end spark >done this weekend. > >As for ALL of the rest of the switches and tables, i >plan on adding them all over the next week or 2. > >The biggest challenge for me is converting the data to >something readable (i.e. 39H to 20 degrees advance). > >See ya > >Andy > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 8 04:29:09 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:29:09 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: > Bruce: > You wrote: > >What application is folks talking about?. > >F1 or motorcycles?. > >Big Problem with the reeds is do to inertia the basiclly stay open at > more > >than 2,000 rpm, in say a Yamahahah 350 2 stroke motorcycle. They > will stop > >reversion at low speed but not at higher speeds > >Bruce > Let me point out that in a 4 cycle engine reversion is only a problem > at low RPM .... that RPM depends on camming and the inertia of the air > column in the intake (intake design). A properly designed reed valve > that stayed open above a specific RPM might therefore be a real asset > in a 4 cycle engine. H.W. Reversion can happen at many different rpm levels. Manifolding has alot to do with it, a dual plane V-8 is about impossible. Single planes get worse. Independent runners can be a PITA. Take something like a Fiat X1/9 engine and hang some 45 DCOEs on it. Due to the manifolding the runners are kinda long so the Air horns get to be real short. So the reversion, pushes the fuel into stand off very easily. You could slowly rev the engine and watch the stand off start and stop. It had 3 ranges as I recall (This was a healthy one that ran to 8,500rpm). From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 8 04:43:18 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 00:43:18 -0400 Subject: FI pressure Sensors Message-ID: There was a thread on this in the last few months, I think. Anyway, as I recall some new Fords had something that looked good as I real. Grumpy Drs office magazine selection stunk. Way too M Stewart stuff > << I am trying to locate a fuel pressure sensor for my engine monitoring > system > I am wanting to build. I know Motorola made some custom sensors for > someone, > but their web page does not list numbers. > Does anyone know what vehicles used a fuel pressure sensor and a > differential > fuel pressure sensor? A vehicle application or a part number would be > appreciated. > Thanks for any help provided! >> > I am getting one for a digital guage from summit racing. > James From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Sat May 8 06:04:12 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 02:04:12 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: -> Big Problem with the reeds is do to inertia the basiclly stay open at -> more than 2,000 rpm, in say a Yamahahah 350 2 stroke motorcycle. -> They will stop reversion at low speed but not at higher speeds ...which is exactly what you want when running a big cam on the street, right? From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 8 06:48:42 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 02:48:42 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: I've had some MAF stuff read like it was suffern from reversion. In little narrow bands the grams/sec would jump up. I've read that these blips are do to reversion. The problem with MAFS is that they measure flow, and don't care in which direction. So this is somewhat of a problem on big cammed motors, and MAF. Which would only explain that the problem can occur at higher rpm.. This experimenting/problems were early in my EFI tinkering, so may be full of errors just that's what I found.. I really haven't seen a problem with EFI, and reversion at low rpm. Carbs yes, maybe if using a carb to EFI conversion manifold, with TBI. But, for a MAP Port system just ain't seen it, maybe it was there, but not as a problem. Bruce > -> Big Problem with the reeds is do to inertia the basiclly stay open at > -> more than 2,000 rpm, in say a Yamahahah 350 2 stroke motorcycle. > -> They will stop reversion at low speed but not at higher speeds > ...which is exactly what you want when running a big cam on the street, > right? From kb4mxo at mwt.net Sat May 8 12:07:55 1999 From: kb4mxo at mwt.net (Steve Gorkowski) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 08:07:55 -0400 Subject: FI pressure Sensors Message-ID: Yes Bruce, Fords this year has no return line and replaced pressure regulator with a vacuum / fuel pressure sensor and electronically regulate fuel pump(I think by PWMing the pump) . I have the sensor and posted the information in incoming some time back. Steve. Bruce Plecan wrote: > There was a thread on this in the last few months, I think. > Anyway, as I recall some new Fords had something that looked good as I real. > Grumpy > Drs office magazine selection stunk. Way too M Stewart stuff > > > << I am trying to locate a fuel pressure sensor for my engine monitoring > > system > > I am wanting to build. I know Motorola made some custom sensors for > > someone, > > but their web page does not list numbers. > > Does anyone know what vehicles used a fuel pressure sensor and a > > differential > > fuel pressure sensor? A vehicle application or a part number would be > > appreciated. > > Thanks for any help provided! >> > > I am getting one for a digital guage from summit racing. > > James From gderian at oh.verio.com Sat May 8 12:16:33 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 08:16:33 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: A capacitor passes AC, an inductor blocks it. Or a resistor with a capacitor to ground on the sensor side of the resistor. Gary Derian > Hello, > > A lot of people have had a problem with a stuttering acceleration in > Subarus. I offered up an hypothesis along with a fix for the problem. > My hypothesis was first rejected by Subaru of America, then later > supported in a Technical Service Bulletin. > > Rather than go into detail here, I'll supply the URL for my website on > the matter. When you go there, scroll down for a lot of links. > http://home.earthlink.net/~hobiegary/hesitation.htm > > Well even though Subaru claims to have a fix for the problem via a new > ECU, I have yet to hear of anyone who could jump through all the > necessary hoops to get a new ECU *and* find out that the new one > actually cures the problem. So I am not holding my breath on that note. > > What I am doing however, is planning on an improvement on my primary > fix. The ECU is a OBD2 type with EPROM. It can be "reset," to loose > stored trouble logs, by disconnecting the battery for about a half > hour. I need to electronically dampen or trim or filter (or whatever it > is called!) the signal from the knock sensor to the ECU. > > What is happening is that the ECU is interpreting non detonation noises > as detonation and reacting accordingly. This leads to piss-poor > performance to say the least. I have gone the mechanical route, > buffering the signal by padding the mechanical interface between the > sensor and the engine block. > > What I would like to do is simply reduce the sensitivity of the sensor. > That is what I did mechanically and it seemed to work pretty good. The > problem though is that it is a little iffy and esoteric and problematic > and lacking consistency. It is not solid state enough to suit me. I'd > rather dampen the signal electrically. > > I tried hooking up a variable capacitor in parallel with it. I thought > that this would let any voltage spikes bleed (partially) to ground and > lessen the signal strength arriving at the ECU. I had trouble with this > method because as soon as I turned the capacitor a certain amount, I'd > get a trouble code and would have to shut down and restart. I'll guess > that the ECU sends a monitor current through the sensor and detects when > it is not at the proper impedance. It didn't seem to help either. I am > not convinced that I was doing the wrong thing either. I just could not > get any positive results. > > I also wonder if I rather should be using a variable inductor in series > with the sensor. Wouldn't this choke a signal without greatly affecting > monitor current? I guess it would depend if the monitor is looking at > impedance with a/c or looking at resistance with d/c. > > Comments? Any other ways I should consider reducing the amplitude of > this signal? What about the ECU, is there anything I can do there to > help the situation? > > I thank you for your attention Fellows and thank you in advance for any > suggestions. > > -- > GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net From charlesmorris at erols.com Sat May 8 13:12:56 1999 From: charlesmorris at erols.com (Charles) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 09:12:56 -0400 Subject: diesel pressures Message-ID: On Fri, 7 May 1999 20:47:37 -0400, Greg wrote: >Type-------------Maximum rated pressure >M----------------400 bar (four hundred bar) My '73 220D has this type of pump. Injectors open at 140 or maybe 180 bar, if I remember right. Once they're open, I doubt the pressure rises as far as 400 bar though. BTW my "Diesel Engine and Fuel System Repair" textbook says the PE-P series can be used with nozzle opening pressures of 10,000 psi, usually on engines with more than 200 hp. -Charles From rah at horizon.hit.net Sat May 8 14:54:11 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 10:54:11 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: On Fri, 7 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > That's not the problem as I see it. It's seeing a knock you don't want it > to see. > That is a problem with all these dumb acoustic sensors, only cure is going > to ionization kknock detection, please refer to the archives and search ION. > I don't actually believe there is anything wrong with the idea of a acoustic knock sensor, I really believe that most of the issues are with crude way they are doing it (simple filter). I believe using a acoustic sensor and DSP and some code using a better algorithm would do alot better in removing other noises. I would also think you could do miss detection using this method also, ie listen for each cylinder igintion and count the ones you missed. Now I just need to put a mic on my engine and collected and figure out how to process the data in such a way to get meaningful data. Roger From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Sat May 8 15:37:07 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 11:37:07 -0400 Subject: Diesel Pressure - Wow!!! Message-ID: The Mercedes / Bosch design used 1100 to 2000 psi - sort of a piss dribble to the diesel world - but at least 25 times better than standard port injection. But since you asked - a SWAG ( scientific wild ass guess ) - probably nothing much. Diesel is far easier to compression ignite than gasoline - centane vs octane - so gasoline should be far safer ( from pressure ). Lubrication would still be a problem, but with the piss that is the current low pollution diesel, its a problem anyway. But from combustion point of fuel - the mixing would be incredible. Course I could be full of it. ------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:59:30 -0500 >From: "Jennifer and Brock Fraser" >Subject: Re: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement > Deleted Stuff > > >Nobody postulated on what would happen if you tried to inject GASOLINE at >1800 BAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > >- -Brock ------------------------------ From mike at webcruzers.com Sat May 8 16:05:25 1999 From: mike at webcruzers.com (Mike DiMeco) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 12:05:25 -0400 Subject: What chip is this?? Message-ID: I am a newbie to this group, and to FI in general. I have an ECM (16025321) from an '83 6 cyl. camaro. The PROM has a bunch of numbers after the DELCO 512K... 8317 3061 06630 CE1024. What PROM device is this? Also, this chip does not have a window like other EPROMS. I assume I can erase it with my device programmer just the same, or copy the bin to another EPROM, but I can't read it correctly until I know what device it is. Mike From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sat May 8 16:15:45 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 12:15:45 -0400 Subject: What chip is this?? Message-ID: At 09:03 AM 5/8/99 -0700, you wrote: >I am a newbie to this group, and to FI in general. > >I have an ECM (16025321) from an '83 6 cyl. camaro. >The PROM has a bunch of numbers after the DELCO 512K... > >8317 3061 06630 CE1024. > >What PROM device is this? Also, this chip does not have >a window like other EPROMS. I assume I can erase it with >my device programmer just the same, or copy the bin to >another EPROM, but I can't read it correctly until I >know what device it is. Mike, GM didn't use EEPROMS until recently, if it's an 83 and has no window, then it is a standard PROM (not EPROM) and is not eraseable. Not sure why it says 512K... nothing that early used that size prom... It's most likely an 82S181. How many pins does the prom chip have? =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 8 16:34:48 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 12:34:48 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: OK, just for giggles, how do you tell a bad A/C compressor bearing that radiates a frequency of 25 Hz, from a knock "noise" of 25 Hz?. (Feel, free to change to any freg of noise) Repeat the above, with fan belt "noise", Alternator bearings, throw out bearings, rocker arm noise lifter noise etc, etc.. If you can do it, more power to you, but, I'll still stick with my original statement. As for miss detection, I'll rely on crank accleration rate changes thank, you. Bruce > > That's not the problem as I see it. It's seeing a knock you don't want it > > to see. > > That is a problem with all these dumb acoustic sensors, only cure is going > > to ionization kknock detection, please refer to the archives and search ION. > I don't actually believe there is anything wrong with the idea of a > acoustic knock sensor, I really believe that most of the issues are > with crude way they are doing it (simple filter). I believe using a > acoustic sensor and DSP and some code using a better algorithm would > do alot better in removing other noises. I would also think you > could do miss detection using this method also, ie listen for each > cylinder igintion and count the ones you missed. Now I just need > to put a mic on my engine and collected and figure out how to > process the data in such a way to get meaningful data. > Roger From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Sat May 8 17:41:12 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 13:41:12 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: I have been following this thread for a while. There are other refferences to knock sensors and problems with "sensing" other engine noises in the arcives too. I have been running a old Pontiac with a custom distributor and ESC for several years (9). The engine has a solid grind cam and several other sources of "external" knocking. The only time I have ever had problems with the sensor picking up stray noises was went the oil pump drive broke. Although the rods weren't knocking audibly the ESC was retarding the timing. I think Gary is right with his assumtion that the Subaru computer is "too sensitve". As I have never checked I am not sure but I would guess that the GM ESC/EST has a built in filter to eliminate certain freqs and amplitudes below a point. When I first installed the system on this engine I was worried about the ESC retarding the timing because of the solid cam too. So I spent several hours with a 'scope checking the output from the sensor and checking to be sure the timing wasn't being retarded. The system worked/works perfectly. Now I can drive my old 11:1 pontiac anywhere on pump gas. Then if I want to race it I just fill it up with racing fuel and away I go. Scott From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 8 18:21:51 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 14:21:51 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: > I think Gary is right with his assumtion that the Subaru computer is > "too sensitve". As I have never checked I am not sure but I would guess that > the GM ESC/EST has a built in filter to eliminate certain freqs and > amplitudes below a point. In all the (gm)ESC modules, I tested each one responded to two different frequencies, and a threshold. Just out of curiousity what ecm are you running?. I've run a gm ESC for years also, in a "noisy environment", without a problem, but not with anything as sensitive as a OBDII system. Yes, you can use acoustic, but that doesn't mean there isn't a better answer. Some folks are perfectly happy with what they got, ie Cart, J+S (?) etc. Fun time starts when something goes wrong. Bruce > When I first installed the system on this engine I was worried about the > ESC retarding the timing because of the solid cam too. So I spent several > hours with a 'scope checking the output from the sensor and checking to be > sure the timing wasn't being retarded. The system worked/works perfectly. > Now I can drive my old 11:1 pontiac anywhere on pump gas. Then if I want to > race it I just fill it up with racing fuel and away I go. > Scott From owly at mcn.net Sat May 8 19:08:46 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 15:08:46 -0400 Subject: diesel pressures Message-ID: Charles: This I can buy..... 10,000 psi (690 bar) is not an unrealistically high pressure, but I find it unbelievable having worked with high pressure liquids that anybody would even consider 2050bar (almost 30,000 psi) as a realistic working pressure for a fluid in an automotive application. Perhaps someday I'll see this VW with a 30K psi common rail pressure in real life.... but I doubt it..... not on this planet. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Charles To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 08, 1999 8:10 AM Subject: Re: diesel pressures >On Fri, 7 May 1999 20:47:37 -0400, Greg wrote: > >>Type-------------Maximum rated pressure >>M----------------400 bar (four hundred bar) > > My '73 220D has this type of pump. Injectors open at >140 or maybe 180 bar, if I remember right. Once they're >open, I doubt the pressure rises as far as 400 bar though. > > BTW my "Diesel Engine and Fuel System Repair" textbook >says the PE-P series can be used with nozzle opening >pressures of 10,000 psi, usually on engines with more than >200 hp. > >-Charles > > From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com Sat May 8 19:21:38 1999 From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 15:21:38 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: Dr. Plecan is once again correct in the optimal knock/misfire detection system. Labeled as a magnetorestrictive sensor, this device measures the accle/decel (twist) of the crank. SAE has several papers on this type of sensor and research continues for incorporation into cars. A ring cast into the crank similar to a DIS timing ring is used to trigger the magnetorestictive sensor. Experiments could be conducted using this ring an possibly a modified mag pick up. So far it is claimed that cycle by cycle detection is possible for each cylinder. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp at bright.net] > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 1999 11:35 AM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus > > > OK, just for giggles, how do you tell a bad A/C compressor bearing that > radiates a frequency of 25 Hz, from a knock "noise" of 25 Hz?. (Feel, > free > to change to any freg of noise) > Repeat the above, with fan belt "noise", Alternator bearings, throw out > bearings, rocker arm noise lifter noise etc, etc.. > If you can do it, more power to you, but, I'll still stick with my > original statement. > As for miss detection, I'll rely on crank accleration rate changes thank, > you. > Bruce > > > > > That's not the problem as I see it. It's seeing a knock you don't > want > it > > > to see. > > > That is a problem with all these dumb acoustic sensors, only cure is > going > > > to ionization kknock detection, please refer to the archives and > search > ION. > > > I don't actually believe there is anything wrong with the idea of a > > acoustic knock sensor, I really believe that most of the issues are > > with crude way they are doing it (simple filter). I believe using a > > acoustic sensor and DSP and some code using a better algorithm would > > do alot better in removing other noises. I would also think you > > could do miss detection using this method also, ie listen for each > > cylinder igintion and count the ones you missed. Now I just need > > to put a mic on my engine and collected and figure out how to > > process the data in such a way to get meaningful data. > > Roger > From mike at webcruzers.com Sat May 8 20:11:42 1999 From: mike at webcruzers.com (Mike DiMeco) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 16:11:42 -0400 Subject: What chip is this?? Message-ID: David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 09:03 AM 5/8/99 -0700, you wrote: > >I am a newbie to this group, and to FI in general. > > > >I have an ECM (16025321) from an '83 6 cyl. camaro. > >The PROM has a bunch of numbers after the DELCO 512K... > > > >8317 3061 06630 CE1024. > > > >What PROM device is this? Also, this chip does not have > >a window like other EPROMS. I assume I can erase it with > >my device programmer just the same, or copy the bin to > >another EPROM, but I can't read it correctly until I > >know what device it is. > > Mike, > GM didn't use EEPROMS until recently, if it's an 83 and has no window, then > it is a standard PROM (not EPROM) and is not eraseable. > Not sure why it says 512K... nothing that early used that size prom... It's > most likely an 82S181. How many pins does the prom chip have? > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== It has 24 pins and it is set in the ECM with a large clear clip. Other numbers on the chip are.. 8566 ASH. Mike From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com Sat May 8 20:12:40 1999 From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 16:12:40 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: Being a Pontiac Fan I would like to hear more about your set up. I am working on a 1973 400 Pont with a HEI right now and your system sounds interesting. Thanks ,Don > -----Original Message----- > From: G. Scott Ponton [SMTP:gscottp at ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 1999 12:41 PM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus > > I have been following this thread for a while. There are other refferences > to knock sensors and problems with "sensing" other engine noises in the > arcives too. I have been running a old Pontiac with a custom distributor > and > ESC for several years (9). The engine has a solid grind cam and several > other sources of "external" knocking. The only time I have ever had > problems > with the sensor picking up stray noises was went the oil pump drive broke. > Although the rods weren't knocking audibly the ESC was retarding the > timing. > I think Gary is right with his assumtion that the Subaru computer is > "too sensitve". As I have never checked I am not sure but I would guess > that > the GM ESC/EST has a built in filter to eliminate certain freqs and > amplitudes below a point. > When I first installed the system on this engine I was worried about > the > ESC retarding the timing because of the solid cam too. So I spent several > hours with a 'scope checking the output from the sensor and checking to be > sure the timing wasn't being retarded. The system worked/works perfectly. > Now I can drive my old 11:1 pontiac anywhere on pump gas. Then if I want > to > race it I just fill it up with racing fuel and away I go. > > Scott From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 8 20:32:28 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 16:32:28 -0400 Subject: What chip is this?? Message-ID: 83, V6, EFI.. That sounds odd, if carb'd then it's just a PROM, and not reprogramable. Large Clear Clip, is a new deal to me. Bruce > > >I am a newbie to this group, and to FI in general. > > >I have an ECM (16025321) from an '83 6 cyl. camaro. > > >The PROM has a bunch of numbers after the DELCO 512K... > > >8317 3061 06630 CE1024. > > >What PROM device is this? Also, this chip does not have > > >a window like other EPROMS. I assume I can erase it with > > >my device programmer just the same, or copy the bin to > > >another EPROM, but I can't read it correctly until I > > >know what device it is. > > Mike, > > GM didn't use EEPROMS until recently, if it's an 83 and has no window, then > > it is a standard PROM (not EPROM) and is not eraseable. > > Not sure why it says 512K... nothing that early used that size prom... It's > > most likely an 82S181. How many pins does the prom chip have? > > =========================================================== > > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > > =========================================================== > It has 24 pins and it is set in the ECM with a large clear clip. > Other numbers on the chip are.. 8566 ASH. > Mike From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 8 21:01:16 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 17:01:16 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: Er, this looks like it's assuming 100% VE, True?. If so wouldn't 130-140% be a tad closer? is there any intercooling? Sneezy > Then, the engine will be trying to breathe in 434 x 5400 x 0.5 x 1/1728 , > or 678 cfm at the highest speed you will be turning it. The runners to each > cylinder will be wanting to flow 1/8 of this much, or about 85 cfm each. > The trick is to size everything in the flow path so that you do not have > excessive pressure drop at any one point in the path at the amount of flow > the engine wants to draw in. What the guy talking to you is missing is that > with a pressurized intake--the pressure drop in the runners is proportional > to the density of the air flowing through them! > Of course--you will also have proportionally more pressure you can afford > to lose with the turbo motor, So whatever will work well with the same size > and speed range NA motor is pretty close for a turbo motor. Going maybe a > fuzz BIGGER than what you would use for a similar size/speed NA motor will > tend to lower backpressure from the turbo on the motor, and lower EGT's > some. > Going any smaller than what you would run on an NA 434 would hurt > performance some, and durability more. > Flow on the inlet side of the turbos will be the amount of air the engine > breathes times the manifold density ratio--a LOT more cfm. Everything on > the inlet side of the turbos should be sized accordingly, and also to have > VERY low pressure losses at this design flow The amount of back pressure > which the turbo(s) will put on the engine to make a given amount of boost > is EXTREMELY sensitive to losses in the inlet tract to the turbos!. > Regards, Greg > From bearbvd at sni.net Sat May 8 22:12:47 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 18:12:47 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: >Er, this looks like it's assuming 100% VE, True?. >If so wouldn't 130-140% be a tad closer? >is there any intercooling? >Sneezy It wuz--just using round numbers to try to give him the idea. Bear > >> Then, the engine will be trying to breathe in 434 x 5400 x 0.5 x 1/1728 , >> or 678 cfm at the highest speed you will be turning it. The runners to >each >> cylinder will be wanting to flow 1/8 of this much, or about 85 cfm each. > >> The trick is to size everything in the flow path so that you do not have >> excessive pressure drop at any one point in the path at the amount of flow >> the engine wants to draw in. What the guy talking to you is missing is >that >> with a pressurized intake--the pressure drop in the runners is >proportional >> to the density of the air flowing through them! >> Of course--you will also have proportionally more pressure you can afford >> to lose with the turbo motor, So whatever will work well with the same >size >> and speed range NA motor is pretty close for a turbo motor. Going maybe a >> fuzz BIGGER than what you would use for a similar size/speed NA motor will >> tend to lower backpressure from the turbo on the motor, and lower EGT's >> some. >> Going any smaller than what you would run on an NA 434 would hurt >> performance some, and durability more. >> Flow on the inlet side of the turbos will be the amount of air the engine >> breathes times the manifold density ratio--a LOT more cfm. Everything on >> the inlet side of the turbos should be sized accordingly, and also to have >> VERY low pressure losses at this design flow The amount of back pressure >> which the turbo(s) will put on the engine to make a given amount of boost >> is EXTREMELY sensitive to losses in the inlet tract to the turbos!. >> Regards, Greg > >> From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Sat May 8 23:19:22 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 19:19:22 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: -> OK, just for giggles, how do you tell a bad A/C compressor bearing -> that radiates a frequency of 25 Hz, from a knock "noise" of 25 Hz?. -> (Feel, free to change to any freg of noise) Amplitude. Even my wife can recognize it when the engine pings. Real detonation can be recognized by drivers in nearby cars. You have to decide what you're looking for here. If you're trying to listen through all the rumble to find erratic igntion events so you can fiddle with the advance or mixture, you're trying to do something even most OEMs don't try to do. If all you want is to know when the engine is in danger of damage, almost anything will do - I have a Carter EKE box (add on knock eliminator, sold for $75 back in the '80s) that works just fine, and it's just a handful of discrete analog components. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 9 00:36:47 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 20:36:47 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: >From reading his post and URL, it seems that the ecm is having it's knock detection system triggered. There was no mention of any audible, knocking type sounds. SOA has a cure that involves replacing the ecm. The assumption on their (original poster's) part is that this is a false signal. In a prior post I mentioned some things to check. Then work can begin at looking at things, Least that's the way I'd do it. GM has had problems for a long time with trace ping, and tip in ping, that can be non-audible, but triggering the KS.. Just putting a pot in the system to turn down the amplitude, is a down and dirty thing to do, without examining what the true problem is in my book. Yes a knock detector circuit probably could be just a 741, and $1 worth of other stuff, but that is just a threshold noise detector. Which would probably be fine for many ecms. But, I would tend to think a OBDII box is smarter than those. Meaning when it goes thru it's self diagnostics, and listens for a response, when doing the ESC test. > -> OK, just for giggles, how do you tell a bad A/C compressor bearing > -> that radiates a frequency of 25 Hz, from a knock "noise" of 25 Hz?. > -> (Feel, free to change to any freg of noise) > Amplitude. ?. A stethoscope, and microphone?. Or are you looking at this as an audible knock?. What a dual trace scope, and one lead to the KS trigger line, and one to another piezio electric device, and compare each bearings noise, to find a similiar trace?. > Even my wife can recognize it when the engine pings. Real detonation > can be recognized by drivers in nearby cars. OK, if the ecm has a limit for the amount of retard and that doesn't take care of the detonation, then it will be audible. But, if the knock limit is 7 degrees and 5 degrees retard takes care of it, performance will be down, and you won't hear any detonation. If it is false knock it will run the KS right up to the 7 degree max, and just ruin performance.. > You have to decide what you're looking for here. And the long term effects of what you do. >If you're trying to > listen through all the rumble to find erratic igntion events so you can > fiddle with the advance or mixture, you're trying to do something even > most OEMs don't try to do. My interuption of the 99 vette ecm is that it will do individual cylinder knock/miss detection, and try to cure it with mix/timing changes. In one shop manual they mention that, but in the training manual there is no mention, but that is from a yet to be updated manual. Bruce > If all you want is to know when the engine > is in danger of damage, almost anything will do - I have a Carter EKE > box (add on knock eliminator, sold for $75 back in the '80s) that works > just fine, and it's just a handful of discrete analog components. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== From EdDSP at ix.netcom.com Sun May 9 00:50:37 1999 From: EdDSP at ix.netcom.com (Ed) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 20:50:37 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: Here's what I'm doing. I'd like to mount a switch on an intake manifold that'll work once there is positive pressure (boost). Such a switch exist? A part # would be most appreciated too. -Ed From DemonTSi at aol.com Sun May 9 01:19:11 1999 From: DemonTSi at aol.com (DemonTSi at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 21:19:11 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: In a message dated 5/8/99 5:54:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, EdDSP at ix.netcom.com writes: << Here's what I'm doing. I'd like to mount a switch on an intake manifold that'll work once there is positive pressure (boost). Such a switch exist? A part # would be most appreciated too. >> The lowest psi activated switch I've ever seen was a 3psi unit...that goes for like 125 bucks! You can get an adjustable hobbs one (sold for use with nos systems) that activates at 5psi for like under 10 bucks. Then you can use a regulator or other restrictor inline and adjust it to show the switch the psi you need. Van From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 9 01:36:00 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 21:36:00 -0400 Subject: What chip is this?? Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > 83, V6, EFI.. > That sounds odd, if carb'd then it's just a PROM, and not reprogramable. > Large Clear Clip, is a new deal to me. > Bruce > Prom carrier in my 83 Camaro ECM is clear. Going by a BCC of ASH/8556 I get 1983 F body, 2.8 longitudinal, 2bbl carb, California emissions, THM 200 trans. Heh heh... It's been too long since you've worked on the oldies. : ) Shannen From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 9 01:52:53 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 21:52:53 -0400 Subject: What chip is this?? Message-ID: Heck, I caught it was a carbby, and just got thrown by clip instead of holder, so that ain't to bad (or was it) Bruce > > 83, V6, EFI.. > > That sounds odd, if carb'd then it's just a PROM, and not reprogramable. > > Large Clear Clip, is a new deal to me. > > Bruce > Prom carrier in my 83 Camaro ECM is clear. Going by a BCC of ASH/8556 > I get 1983 F body, 2.8 longitudinal, 2bbl carb, California emissions, > THM 200 trans. > Heh heh... It's been too long since you've worked on the oldies. : ) > Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 9 02:09:51 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 22:09:51 -0400 Subject: diesel pressures Message-ID: Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > Charles: > This I can buy..... 10,000 psi (690 bar) is not an unrealistically > high pressure, but I find it unbelievable having worked with high > pressure liquids that anybody would even consider 2050bar (almost > 30,000 psi) as a realistic working pressure for a fluid in an > automotive application. Perhaps someday I'll see this VW with a 30K > psi common rail pressure in real life.... but I doubt it..... not on > this planet. H.W. > Howard, if these guys knew that "owly" is Montana slang for stubborn and disagreeable, they might be better prepared for your frame of mind. ; ) Shannen From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 9 02:35:13 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 22:35:13 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: >In a message dated 5/8/99 5:54:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >EdDSP at ix.netcom.com writes: > ><< Here's what I'm doing. I'd like to mount a switch on an intake manifold > that'll work once there is positive pressure (boost). Such a switch > exist? A part # would be most appreciated too. >> > >The lowest psi activated switch I've ever seen was a 3psi unit...that goes >for like 125 bucks! You can get an adjustable hobbs one (sold for use with >nos systems) that activates at 5psi for like under 10 bucks. Then you can use >a regulator or other restrictor inline and adjust it to show the switch the >psi you need. > >Van How about the switch normally used on oil pressure to actuate the oil pressure idiot light--aren't they set at about 4 or 5 psi?? Greg From DemonTSi at aol.com Sun May 9 02:53:27 1999 From: DemonTSi at aol.com (DemonTSi at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 22:53:27 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: In a message dated 5/8/99 7:38:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bearbvd at sni.net writes: << How about the switch normally used on oil pressure to actuate the oil pressure idiot light--aren't they set at about 4 or 5 psi?? >> Ouch...if they wait till your oil pressure drops to 4-5 before setting off the idiot light....... :) Van - http://members.xoom.com/BADROC From Cameano at aol.com Sun May 9 04:49:03 1999 From: Cameano at aol.com (Cameano at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 00:49:03 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: In a message dated 5/8/99 9:40:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, DemonTSi at aol.com writes: << << How about the switch normally used on oil pressure to actuate the oil pressure idiot light--aren't they set at about 4 or 5 psi?? >> Ouch...if they wait till your oil pressure drops to 4-5 before setting off the idiot light....... :) Van - http://members.xoom.com/BADROC >> This is why I like to replace my stock switch with an Autometer 15psi unit. They can be found fairly cheap from Summit and other places. Autometer makes them for their oil pressure "Pro Light". They also come in 25psi. Darren (new list member) Waipahu, HI From bureau13 at mediaone.net Sun May 9 05:48:16 1999 From: bureau13 at mediaone.net (Jeff Smith) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 01:48:16 -0400 Subject: Extra Inector Controller project Message-ID: Hi all, I know then subject of "EICs" has been covered, as I've scanned through the archives already and found a lot of good info. I do have a couple of questions regarding this, however. First of all, I have seen a lot of mention of the Cherry or Motorola drivers (they appear to be identical) and the National LM1949, however ST Micro makes something called an L584 that also looks interesting (more like the 1949 than the Cherry parts, it requires an external Darlington to turn the injectors on and off). Has anyone had any experience with this part? Other than the requirement of external parts, what are the pros and cons that have been found with any of these parts relative to the others? My second question has more to do with the timing of the injector pulses. I will most likely be using the ignition coil as the interrupt used to fire the injectors, but is there a more appropriate time to do it? Is there a delay that I should wait after the coil fires, or is there some other interrupt, which would provide a more optimal firing time? TIA, jds From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Sun May 9 06:17:12 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 02:17:12 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: In all the (gm)ESC modules, I tested each one responded to two different frequencies, and a threshold. Just out of curiousity what ecm are you running?. I've run a gm ESC for years also, in a "noisy environment", without a problem, but not with anything as sensitive as a OBDII system. Yes, you can use acoustic, but that doesn't mean there isn't a better answer. Some folks are perfectly happy with what they got, ie Cart, J+S (?) etc. Fun time starts when something goes wrong. Bruce Honestly I can't tell you which ECM it is. I'm pretty sure it came out of a Chevy P/U mid 80,s variety. It has been under my dash for 9 years and I have never had a problem with it. The vehicle isn't a daily driver anylonger. I suppose I could go to storage and pull it out and look. Some of us are never "happy" with what we have. Why do you think I went through the trouble to manufacture a distributor and install the system on my 67 Pontiac. Sometimes you have to work with what the world gives you to work with. At the time I installed this system there wasn't anything "better" which a "normal" person could afford. Scott From mike at webcruzers.com Sun May 9 06:49:04 1999 From: mike at webcruzers.com (Mike DiMeco) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 02:49:04 -0400 Subject: What chip is this?? Message-ID: Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > 83, V6, EFI.. > > That sounds odd, if carb'd then it's just a PROM, and not reprogramable. > > Large Clear Clip, is a new deal to me. > > Bruce > > > Prom carrier in my 83 Camaro ECM is clear. Going by a BCC of ASH/8556 > I get 1983 F body, 2.8 longitudinal, 2bbl carb, California emissions, > THM 200 trans. > > Heh heh... It's been too long since you've worked on the oldies. : ) > Shannen Thanks! Mike From martin.easterbrook at virgin.net Sun May 9 11:13:54 1999 From: martin.easterbrook at virgin.net (Martin Easterbrook) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 07:13:54 -0400 Subject: Extra Inector Controller project Message-ID: HI Jeff >From memory the Cherry CS452 is a linear device, it gives you the peak and hold current (for low impedance injectors) by dropping the appropriate voltage internally. You get a smooth current trace, but the device gets quite hot. It works quite well though, if you can put up with the power dissipation. The 584 is a switch mode device and is quite energy efficient. You set whatever peak and hold currents you want (within reason) whereas the cherry chip has fixed settings (one has 2.4A/0.6, another has 4A/1A). The L584 can also be set up to have a peak sustaining time (ie current goes to the peak setting, stays there for a defined period of time, then switches to the hold setting). This feature may be useful if you intend to run at high pressures. In some applications you will find that the peak current is reached before the injector has fully opened, so the peak sustain can be used to ensure that the injector opens fully before switching to the hold. Martin mailto:martin.easterbrook at virgin.net -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Smith [SMTP:bureau13 at mediaone.net] Sent: 09 May 1999 06:49 To: diy_efi Subject: Extra Inector Controller project Hi all, I know then subject of "EICs" has been covered, as I've scanned through the archives already and found a lot of good info. I do have a couple of questions regarding this, however. First of all, I have seen a lot of mention of the Cherry or Motorola drivers (they appear to be identical) and the National LM1949, however ST Micro makes something called an L584 that also looks interesting (more like the 1949 than the Cherry parts, it requires an external Darlington to turn the injectors on and off). Has anyone had any experience with this part? Other than the requirement of external parts, what are the pros and cons that have been found with any of these parts relative to the others? My second question has more to do with the timing of the injector pulses. I will most likely be using the ignition coil as the interrupt used to fire the injectors, but is there a more appropriate time to do it? Is there a delay that I should wait after the coil fires, or is there some other interrupt, which would provide a more optimal firing time? TIA, jds From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 9 12:57:05 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 08:57:05 -0400 Subject: Extra Inector Controller project Message-ID: You haven't given any clues about what your trying to do here, but, Just off the top of my head in an effort to get the distibution somewhat even, I'd seriously think of firing the injector at a rate of the ignition pulse, divided by a prime number. ie On a 8 cylinder fire the injector every three/fifth ignition pulse. 6cyl 3-5th 4cyl 3rd An if using more than one injector, I'd be firing them under different strategies. Course none of this might not work depending on your brand of inectors . Bashful Fully healed from last incident > My second question has more to do with the timing of the injector > pulses. I will most likely be using the ignition coil as the interrupt > used to fire the injectors, but is there a more appropriate time to do > it? Is there a delay that I should wait after the coil fires, or is > there some other interrupt, which would provide a more optimal firing > time? > TIA, > jds From gderian at oh.verio.com Sun May 9 14:24:20 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 10:24:20 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: For the masses, oil pressure is either OK or something broke and its zero. Gary Derian > > << How about the switch normally used on oil pressure to actuate the oil > pressure idiot light--aren't they set at about 4 or 5 psi?? >> > > Ouch...if they wait till your oil pressure drops to 4-5 before setting off > the idiot light....... :) > > Van From houlster at user2.inficad.com Sun May 9 15:36:06 1999 From: houlster at user2.inficad.com (Daniel Houlton) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:36:06 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: Ed wrote: > > Here's what I'm doing. I'd like to mount a switch on an intake manifold > that'll work once there is positive pressure (boost). Such a switch > exist? A part # would be most appreciated too. > > -Ed Go to NAPA and ask for their lowest pressure Hobbes switch. This is one set to close (or open depending on NO or NC) at about 5 psi I think. They are adjustable from atmosphereic to around 10 - 15 psi or so. About $25 - $30 I think it was. --Dan From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Sun May 9 15:44:06 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 11:44:06 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: Don, The system should be fairly easy for you to impliment. The problem I had was fitting an HEI behind a Tripower intake. With the rear carb so far back there wasn't room for an HEI distributor. So I had to manufacture my own and mount the rest of the HEI circiutry to a heat sink mounted elsewhere. Unless the rest on the list are willing to read all of this I think it may be better if we took the discussion "off list" and save the bandwidth. Scott From wsherwin at idirect.com Sun May 9 16:52:49 1999 From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 12:52:49 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: >Here's what I'm doing. I'd like to mount a switch on an intake manifold >that'll work once there is positive pressure (boost). Such a switch >exist? A part # would be most appreciated too. > Ed, you can find such switches at OMEGA (1-800-TC-OMEGA). As an example, in the "Pressure, Strain Gage, and Force Handbook - Volume 29" you will find part number PSW-521 on page H-7, for $79. There are plenty of other models as well. Walt. From fluffy at snurgle.org Sun May 9 17:01:24 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 13:01:24 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: On Sun, 9 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > For the masses, oil pressure is either OK or something broke and its zero. On my Geo, I can get a reasonable indication of what the oil pressure is going to be by watching how long it takes the idiot light to go off when I start the car. It's OK if it goes less than about 1.5 seconds... :} From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 9 17:06:04 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 13:06:04 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: I don't think bandwidth is a problem. Me and the guys are always curious about other executions of ideas. Please cc us if you do go off list Grumpy, Doc, Basful, Sneezy, Sleepy, Bruce > Don, > The system should be fairly easy for you to impliment. The problem I had > was fitting an HEI behind a Tripower intake. With the rear carb so far back > there wasn't room for an HEI distributor. So I had to manufacture my own > and mount the rest of the HEI circiutry to a heat sink mounted elsewhere. > Unless the rest on the list are willing to read all of this I think it > may be better if we took the discussion "off list" and save the bandwidth. > Scott From bureau13 at mediaone.net Sun May 9 17:24:07 1999 From: bureau13 at mediaone.net (Jeff Smith) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 13:24:07 -0400 Subject: Extra Inector Controller project Message-ID: I'm just trying to make a stand-alone device that works along with the stock fuel system to use additional injectors to provide fuel for an aftermarket turbo or upping the boost on the stock turbo. Much like the GReddy Rebic III or HKS AIC, or any number of similar devices. Only I want to do it myself ;-) Speaking of different engine configurations, does anyone know of a good document or website somewhere that describes in general the ignition and injection cycles for various types of engines, i.e. 8 cylinder, 4 cylinder, rotaries, etc? I know, its basic stuff and I should know it already, but I'm a bit new to the game, and I haven't been able to find anything that describes this. Thanks, jds Bruce Plecan wrote: > > You haven't given any clues about what your trying to do here, but, Just off > the top of my head in an effort to get the distibution somewhat even, I'd > seriously think of firing the injector at a rate of the ignition pulse, > divided by a prime number. > ie On a 8 cylinder fire the injector every three/fifth ignition pulse. > 6cyl 3-5th > 4cyl 3rd > An if using more than one injector, I'd be firing them under different > strategies. > Course none of this might not work depending on your brand of inectors . > Bashful > Fully healed from last incident > > > My second question has more to do with the timing of the injector > > pulses. I will most likely be using the ignition coil as the interrupt > > used to fire the injectors, but is there a more appropriate time to do > > it? Is there a delay that I should wait after the coil fires, or is > > there some other interrupt, which would provide a more optimal firing > > time? > > TIA, > > jds From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 9 18:42:30 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 14:42:30 -0400 Subject: Extra Inector Controller project Message-ID: For general ignition intro info. Troubleshooting + Repairing Automotive Ignition Systems By Andrew Stevens (old, probably outa print) library might have thou The Drs Guide to Optimizing your Ignition System Dr Jacobs available from Jacobs Electronics Kind of an ad for his prducts but does have good entry level info. Manual 16009.10-6 GM Fuel Injection Diagnosis Call (800) 393-4831 There are lots of others but these I've seen use, and make things easy for the novice. Doc > Speaking of different engine configurations, does anyone know of a good > document or website somewhere that describes in general the ignition and > injection cycles for various types of engines, i.e. 8 cylinder, 4 > cylinder, rotaries, etc? I know, its basic stuff and I should know it > already, but I'm a bit new to the game, and I haven't been able to find > anything that describes this. > Thanks, > jds Plecan wrote: > > You haven't given any clues about what your trying to do here, but, Just off > > the top of my head in an effort to get the distibution somewhat even, I'd > > seriously think of firing the injector at a rate of the ignition pulse, > > divided by a prime number. > > ie On a 8 cylinder fire the injector every three/fifth ignition pulse. > > 6cyl 3-5th > > 4cyl 3rd > > An if using more than one injector, I'd be firing them under different > > strategies. > > Course none of this might not work depending on your brand of inectors . > > Bashful > > Fully healed from last incident > > > My second question has more to do with the timing of the injector > > > pulses. I will most likely be using the ignition coil as the interrupt > > > used to fire the injectors, but is there a more appropriate time to do > > > it? Is there a delay that I should wait after the coil fires, or is > > > there some other interrupt, which would provide a more optimal firing > > > time? > > > TIA, > > > jds From EdDSP at ix.netcom.com Sun May 9 19:23:34 1999 From: EdDSP at ix.netcom.com (Ed) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 15:23:34 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: I think I found something. http://www.fwmurphy.com/psb.html Adjustable from 0psi-up depending on part #. Thanks for the recommendations people. -Ed From vk265 at ozemail.com.au Sun May 9 23:04:33 1999 From: vk265 at ozemail.com.au (Stuart Bunning) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 19:04:33 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: If your car has a MAP sencor how about wiring up a op-amp as a comparator with a pot this would cost about $5 . just speaking out load... At 08:53 PM 8/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >Here's what I'm doing. I'd like to mount a switch on an intake manifold >that'll work once there is positive pressure (boost). Such a switch >exist? A part # would be most appreciated too. > >-Ed > > Stuart Australia 1 * 1988 VN Commodore Buick 3.8l V6 (Aussie GM Vehicle 808) 1 * 1976 Chrysler Charger 4.3l Hemi 6 with DELCO P4 808 1 * Bench ECU for testing and playing 808 Email: stuart at kenelec.com.au ------------------------------------------------------------ From vk265 at ozemail.com.au Sun May 9 23:11:09 1999 From: vk265 at ozemail.com.au (Stuart Bunning) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 19:11:09 -0400 Subject: VSS Omit??? Message-ID: I was told a story that GM in USA had used Chryslers Torqueflight transmission in some of there larger vehicles. And they called the something else other then a torqueflight so people wouldnt know ?? If this is correct I would like to hear from anyone as I have a 808 in a Chrysler powered car and are having problems setting up a VSS.. If the above is true i should be able to plug A VSS assembly directly into my box. From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 10 00:03:09 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:03:09 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: Ever wonder why Ford factory gauges have no numbers? Can't really see the pressure's low if the gauge reads "low" and "high". Tends to reduce warranty problems... Shannen Gary Derian wrote: > > For the masses, oil pressure is either OK or something broke and its zero. > > Gary Derian > > > > << How about the switch normally used on oil pressure to actuate the oil > > pressure idiot light--aren't they set at about 4 or 5 psi?? >> > > > > Ouch...if they wait till your oil pressure drops to 4-5 before setting off > > the idiot light....... :) > > > > Van From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 10 00:05:44 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:05:44 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: This might be of interest. GM uses an externally mounted ignition module. The module and coil are connected to an aluminum plate. I've seen this on 93+ Corvettes, 96+ pickup trucks. Shannen G. Scott Ponton wrote: > > Don, > > The system should be fairly easy for you to impliment. The problem I had > was fitting an HEI behind a Tripower intake. With the rear carb so far back > there wasn't room for an HEI distributor. So I had to manufacture my own > and mount the rest of the HEI circiutry to a heat sink mounted elsewhere. > Unless the rest on the list are willing to read all of this I think it > may be better if we took the discussion "off list" and save the bandwidth. > > Scott From punisher454 at hotmail.com Mon May 10 00:46:37 1999 From: punisher454 at hotmail.com (The Punisher) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:46:37 -0400 Subject: 730edit program Message-ID: How is the 730 edit program coming along? The gm eprom editor that My friend is writing me will be a couple of months away, The program wont take long but he just cannot spare the time yet. What tables and switches do you have incorporated into yours so far ? Hope it turns out good, because the other stuff I have seen so far is less than impressive IMHO. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 10 00:49:59 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:49:59 -0400 Subject: VSS Omit??? Message-ID: There's a much better chance it's the other way around. GM sold the Turbo Hydramatic 400 to many companies, including Rolls Royce and Jeep. I've never seen GM use a Chrysler trans in a car. But as always, could be wrong. FWD Chrysler products use a speed sensor that mounts to the speedo cable, and there are aftermarket units that can be used as well. Shannen Stuart Bunning wrote: > > I was told a story that GM in USA had used Chryslers Torqueflight > transmission in some of there larger vehicles. And they called the something > else other then a torqueflight so people wouldnt know ?? > > If this is correct I would like to hear from anyone as I have a 808 in a > Chrysler powered car and are having problems setting up a VSS.. If the above > is true i should be able to plug A VSS assembly directly into my box. From kb4mxo at mwt.net Mon May 10 00:56:57 1999 From: kb4mxo at mwt.net (Steve Gorkowski) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:56:57 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: They have a color paint on them and must be cleaned with electrical cleaner or color will come off. Learned this the hard way. Steve Shannen Durphey wrote: > Ever wonder why Ford factory gauges have no numbers? Can't really see > the pressure's low if the gauge reads "low" and "high". Tends to > reduce warranty problems... > Shannen > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > > For the masses, oil pressure is either OK or something broke and its zero. > > > > Gary Derian > > > > > > << How about the switch normally used on oil pressure to actuate the oil > > > pressure idiot light--aren't they set at about 4 or 5 psi?? >> > > > > > > Ouch...if they wait till your oil pressure drops to 4-5 before setting off > > > the idiot light....... :) > > > > > > Van From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 10 01:14:49 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:14:49 -0400 Subject: VSS Omit??? Message-ID: Won't a regular inline speedo cable VSS work?. Doc I had nothing to do, with bombing the Chinese..... > I was told a story that GM in USA had used Chryslers Torqueflight > transmission in some of there larger vehicles. And they called the something > else other then a torqueflight so people wouldnt know ?? > > If this is correct I would like to hear from anyone as I have a 808 in a > Chrysler powered car and are having problems setting up a VSS.. If the above > is true i should be able to plug A VSS assembly directly into my box. > > > From gderian at oh.verio.com Mon May 10 01:19:42 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:19:42 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: Actually, on one Ford I have worked on, the oil pressure gauge was connected to a standard idiot light switch. The gauge reads half when the switch is closed and zero when the switch is open. Replacing the switch with a sender made the gauge not work at all. This was on a 87 T-bird with digital dash. I think Ford does this on other models as well. Gary Derian > Ever wonder why Ford factory gauges have no numbers? Can't really see > the pressure's low if the gauge reads "low" and "high". Tends to > reduce warranty problems... > Shannen > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > > For the masses, oil pressure is either OK or something broke and its zero. > > > > > << How about the switch normally used on oil pressure to actuate the oil > > > pressure idiot light--aren't they set at about 4 or 5 psi?? >> > > > > > > Ouch...if they wait till your oil pressure drops to 4-5 before setting off > > > the idiot light....... :) > > > > > > Van From gderian at oh.verio.com Mon May 10 01:19:43 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:19:43 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: I did this when I had a Buick 215 in my Vega. I mounted a magnetic sensor from an old Corvette transistor ignition in the Buick dizzy and an HEI module mounted to a heat sink behind the headlight. Gary Derian > This might be of interest. GM uses an externally mounted ignition > module. The module and coil are connected to an aluminum plate. I've > seen this on 93+ Corvettes, 96+ pickup trucks. > Shannen > > G. Scott Ponton wrote: > > > > Don, > > > > The system should be fairly easy for you to impliment. The problem I had > > was fitting an HEI behind a Tripower intake. With the rear carb so far back > > there wasn't room for an HEI distributor. So I had to manufacture my own > > and mount the rest of the HEI circiutry to a heat sink mounted elsewhere. > > Unless the rest on the list are willing to read all of this I think it > > may be better if we took the discussion "off list" and save the bandwidth. > > > > Scott From punisher454 at hotmail.com Mon May 10 01:37:02 1999 From: punisher454 at hotmail.com (The Punisher) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:37:02 -0400 Subject: 730 on a 406 small block Message-ID: Okay, I now have some 730 computers to work with, but still have some questions. First here is what I'M working on: 400 small block chevy bored .030 for a final displacment of 406". 10.8-11.0:1 compression ratio with 2 valve relief pistion on 5.7" rods. World Products sportsman2 heads with some porting on the exhaust side. Crane 1.6 roller rockers. Thermal Barrier coating in the combustion chambers,cylinder side of the intake valves,both sides of the exhaust valves and full exhaust port. What I plan to change: I was using a hydraulic flat tappet cam with 224 degrees duration at .050 lift, something like .520 lift with the 1.6 rockers, ground on a 108 degree lobe seperation angle. A single 2 barrel Holley ProJection on a custom spacer to a torker2 intake (all worked like CRAP together!) I am currently installing a Weiand "Hi-Ram" Tunnel Ram with dual Holley throttle bodies and a small diameter HEI distributor (needed to clear the tunnel ram)with an MSD-6T unit. I have a ZZ4 hydraulic roller cam I got from a friend (he went 10.80 with this cam using a DFI computer) that I would like to run (I already have the hydraulic roller link bar problem solved). I have an eprom programer on order, and I am seriously considering an eprom emulator to make on the spot tuning alot faster. Questions: 1. Is the 730 computer a good choice here? (I plan to tap the tunnel ram for port injectors in the future someday) 2. I also have a couple of 727 underhood computers, are these realy the same as a 730 ? any changes I need to know about? 3. does anybody have a pinout for a 727 ? 4. Any recomendations on eprom emulators? I have been thinking about the EconoROM II from Tech Tools. The ad in Circut Cellar lists it at 149.00, is this good? 5. Any suggestions for installing an IAC solenoid/valve to the tunnel ram plenum? I have heard that the BDS unit uses a ford IAC with a tube to the manifold, but that is with a DFI computer. What types of IAC unit will work with the 730 ? 6. does anybody have any .bin files for anything close enough to this combo that I can at least get it fired up and running? Then I'll dial it in from there. Thats enough for now, thanks. The Punisher _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Mon May 10 01:46:31 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:46:31 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: Alot of reversion on 4 bangers at WOT, full load, low RPM. Also any time you here your intake pipes start playing music notes. alex > I've had some MAF stuff read like it was suffern from reversion. In little > narrow bands the grams/sec would jump up. I've read that these blips are do > to reversion. The problem with MAFS is that they measure flow, and don't > care in which direction. So this is somewhat of a problem on big cammed > motors, and MAF. Which would only explain that the problem can occur at > higher rpm.. > This experimenting/problems were early in my EFI tinkering, so may be full > of errors just that's what I found.. > I really haven't seen a problem with EFI, and reversion at low rpm. > Carbs yes, maybe if using a carb to EFI conversion manifold, with TBI. But, > for a MAP Port system just ain't seen it, maybe it was there, but not as a > problem. > Bruce > > -> Big Problem with the reeds is do to inertia the basiclly stay open at > > -> more than 2,000 rpm, in say a Yamahahah 350 2 stroke motorcycle. > > -> They will stop reversion at low speed but not at higher speeds > > ...which is exactly what you want when running a big cam on the street, > > right? > > > > > From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Mon May 10 01:46:36 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:46:36 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: I filed a corporate patent idea in 1978 on a rotating ball valve in intake or exhaust controlled by microproceesor for intake tuning and reversion, never have tried it. alex > > We tried this on some race bikes years ago. Reeds reduced the airflow and > > > added length to the inlet tract that changed the tuned length. If it bore > any > > real use, the F1 guys would be all over it. > > Fred > The F1 guys dont cruise their cars do they?Torque at 2000rpm is not an isue > for F1 guys. > Reeds could be bypassed at high rpm.I dont have any proof that a good > engineered reed setup would work great I just belive it, when Im thinking > about it a two walve engine with high mass valve train would bennefit the > most , > because of the small dynamic range of system.If you are conserned of reed > reduction of airflow, think what a regular valve is doing at high rpms. > Espen > > From punisher454 at hotmail.com Mon May 10 01:47:32 1999 From: punisher454 at hotmail.com (The Punisher) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:47:32 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: >I did this when I had a Buick 215 in my Vega. I mounted a magnetic sensor >from an old Corvette transistor ignition in the Buick dizzy and an HEI >module mounted to a heat sink behind the headlight. > >Gary Derian > I did this on a Dodge pickup that kept getting me stranded with burned out ignition components (the box and the ballast resistor both). A connected an HEI module to the magnetic pickup plug on the stock Dodge distributor. I put the HEI module in a small aluminum enclosure with a red light on it so I would know it had power. And used a HEI external coil from a 6 cylinder. Truck ran better and never stranded me again due to ignition problems. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From WLundquist at aol.com Mon May 10 02:02:33 1999 From: WLundquist at aol.com (WLundquist at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:02:33 -0400 Subject: Injector flow bench Message-ID: Does anyone have a readable copy of the article from Performance Engineering Magazine about building the injector flow bench? I downloaded from the net but can't seem to print a legible copy. The article ended up in a bmp format. Any help would be greatly appreciated. TIA Wayne From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 10 02:24:19 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:24:19 -0400 Subject: 730 on a 406 small block Message-ID: Weight of car?, Auto/Manual tranny?, Final Drive Gearing?. Your running two. of the 4-barrel units?. Or two 2 barrel units. You want to start with the TBI, and then go port??. > Okay, I now have some 730 computers to work with, but still have some > questions. > First here is what I'M working on: > 400 small block chevy bored .030 for a final displacment of 406". > 10.8-11.0:1 compression ratio with 2 valve relief pistion on 5.7" rods. > World Products sportsman2 heads with some porting on the exhaust side. Crane > 1.6 roller rockers. Thermal Barrier coating in the combustion > chambers,cylinder side of the intake valves,both sides of the exhaust valves > and full exhaust port. > > What I plan to change: > I was using a hydraulic flat tappet cam with 224 degrees duration at .050 > lift, something like .520 lift with the 1.6 rockers, ground on a 108 degree > lobe seperation angle. A single 2 barrel Holley ProJection on a custom > spacer to a torker2 intake (all worked like CRAP together!) > > I am currently installing a Weiand "Hi-Ram" Tunnel Ram with dual Holley > throttle bodies and a small diameter HEI distributor (needed to clear the > tunnel ram)with an MSD-6T unit. I have a ZZ4 hydraulic roller cam I got from > a friend (he went 10.80 with this cam using a DFI computer) that I would > like to run (I already have the hydraulic roller link bar problem solved). > > I have an eprom programer on order, and I am seriously considering an eprom > emulator to make on the spot tuning alot faster. > > Questions: > 1. Is the 730 computer a good choice here? (I plan to tap the tunnel ram for > port injectors in the future someday) > > 2. I also have a couple of 727 underhood computers, are these realy the same > as a 730 ? any changes I need to know about? > > 3. does anybody have a pinout for a 727 ? > > 4. Any recomendations on eprom emulators? I have been thinking about the > EconoROM II from Tech Tools. The ad in Circut Cellar lists it at 149.00, is > this good? > > 5. Any suggestions for installing an IAC solenoid/valve to the tunnel ram > plenum? I have heard that the BDS unit uses a ford IAC with a tube to the > manifold, but that is with a DFI computer. What types of IAC unit will work > with the 730 ? I think Arizonia Speed+Marine sell a remote IAC for GMs. If ya look around you might find a throttle body that has a bolt on IAC. Sneezy > > 6. does anybody have any .bin files for anything close enough to this combo > that I can at least get it fired up and running? Then I'll dial it in from > there. > > > Thats enough for now, thanks. > The Punisher > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Mon May 10 03:26:10 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 23:26:10 -0400 Subject: VSS Omit??? Message-ID: On Mon, 10 May 1999, Stuart Bunning wrote: > I was told a story that GM in USA had used Chryslers Torqueflight > transmission in some of there larger vehicles. And they called the something > else other then a torqueflight so people wouldnt know ?? > GM used the Mopar 4 speed standard trans in various trucks. The 833 and 435 were both used. They also used some top-loader Ford 3 speeds for a while. American Motors, International and newer jeeps used the T/F. I have seen a parts book picture of a 904 T/F case with a Chevy bell hsg pattern, which would be from an Iron Duke 4 cylinder in a Cherokee type vehicle IIRC. Any other use would be news to me... From jseabolt at intermediatn.net Mon May 10 04:02:38 1999 From: jseabolt at intermediatn.net (James Seabolt) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 00:02:38 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: >Gary Derian > > >> This might be of interest. GM uses an externally mounted ignition >> module. The module and coil are connected to an aluminum plate. I've >> seen this on 93+ Corvettes, 96+ pickup trucks. >> Shannen My 1980 Fiat Spider uses an externally mounted GM HEI control module. The control module and coil sit in a finned unit and there is a long cable that runs to pickup in the distributor. ---------------------------------------------------------- James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ ICQ # : 7344463 United States 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) ---------------------------------------------------------- From punisher454 at hotmail.com Mon May 10 05:12:37 1999 From: punisher454 at hotmail.com (The Punisher) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:12:37 -0400 Subject: 730 on a 406 small block Message-ID: >Weight of car?, Auto/Manual tranny?, Final Drive Gearing?. >Your running two. of the 4-barrel units?. >Or two 2 barrel units. >You want to start with the TBI, and then go port??. > 3250 lbs aprox with driver, turbo400 trans with 2500-3000 stall converter. 3.73 gears. dual 670cfm 2 barrel holley projections with 80 pound injectors. I already have all the TBI stuff (and it looks good on the tunnel ram too), but later I plan to weld up a new plenum top for the tunnel ram and go port. >I think Arizonia Speed+Marine sell a remote IAC for GMs. >If ya look around you might find a throttle body that has a bolt on IAC. >Sneezy OKay I'll check with AZM on that one, thanks. And I do have one rochester TBI unit from a 305 camaro, but I dont trust it much and I still would need to aquire another similar one. I'd rather just use the remote IAC, which I could also use later. Thanks for the input. The punisher _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From jseabolt at intermediatn.net Mon May 10 05:23:41 1999 From: jseabolt at intermediatn.net (James Seabolt) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:23:41 -0400 Subject: L-jetronic mods Message-ID: Hello. I'm new to the list (sort of), so forgive me this subject has been covered before. I installed a custom turbo system on my 1980 Fiat Spider. Building the system was a task itself but getting the engine to resist detontation has been an uphill battle. If detonation is as destructive as what everybody describes, then my engine would have been toast months ago because my engine has shown no ill effects. So far anyway. I had been running a few band-aid solutions such as water/alcohol injection, timing retard, etc. but these are getting old. My real problem is fuel enrichment. Here's some specs: 2 liter/twin cam/hemi design C/R: 8.1:1 (factory), current unknown, head was resurfaced during the last rebuild. Bosch L-jetronic fuel injection system w/lambda sensor Turbo: Rayjay 301 Boost: 7 pounds gasoline : 93 octane (of course) Fuel enrichement device, rising rate fuel pressure regulator and a 2nd cold start valve mounted upstream triggered at around 2 pounds. With these specifications, this engine should handle 7 pounds of boost with no problems. That is with proper fuel enrichment, but I can't figure out how to get more fuel into the engine. The most frustrating thing is, the potentional is there, I just don't know how to unlock it. The other day, I was able to trick the computer into dumping more fuel into the motor than it could handle, to the point the car was smothering and belching black smoke out out the exhaust at 7 pounds. The engine seemed to handle the extra amount of fuel until the contacts in the throttle position switch closed and dumped too much fuel. I did this by installing a set of boost switches which adds resistance (about 2000 ohms) between the computer and coolant temperature sensor. This doesn't work on my car because I've got a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. My latest experiment was to splice a Hobbs pressure switch between the oxygen sensor and computer. As soon as I hit boost (.1 pounds) the control loop is disrupted. Today the temperature was near 80F and the car seemed to do OK. Can someone tell me this: I was under the impression that when the engine is under wide open throttle, the throttle position switch breaks the control loop. Is this correct? Or no matter what, the engine is still in the control loop? My theory is that any attempts to get more fuel into the engine are being overiden by the oxygen sensor even under wide open throttle, but by breaking the control loop, now I can get more fuel into the engine. Seems like my latest attempt has worked by I would still be more comfortable knowing that I am getting the most fuel I can get into my motor without causing the car to choke. Here's a rundown of my current setup: 1) rising rate fuel pressure regulator 2) 2nd cold start valve mounted upstream before the throttle body triggered at around 2 pounds. 3) Oxygen sensor to computer broken at .1 pounds I would like to do away with the 2nd cold start valve and use the injectors as my sole source for fuel because I know they have the potential when the fuel pressure is stepped up. Also I want to point out that during the experiment where I got too much fuel into the engine was done with the 2nd cold start valve disconnected. What could I do to increase the pulse rate of the injectors? My attempt to create my own boost switch didn't work. I tried rigging up another pressure switch with several rated resistors (600-1000 ohms) in parallel but the CPU didn't like this. Also is there anything to my latest experiment by breaking the circuit between the oxygen sensor and computer under boost? If you guys need anymore details, just email me. This fuel injection system has been around for 25 years so I am sure there is someone on here that knows how to trick this system. Should I just have the injectors remapped to flow more fuel and run a lower fuel pressure so the engine won't run rich at idle and cruise? Great Scott! I'm running out of options here. Someone help me! Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------- James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ ICQ # : 7344463 United States 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) ---------------------------------------------------------- From mdporter at rt66.com Mon May 10 05:57:06 1999 From: mdporter at rt66.com (Michael D. Porter) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 01:57:06 -0400 Subject: L-jetronic mods Message-ID: James Seabolt wrote: > I was under the impression that when the engine is under wide open > throttle, the throttle position switch breaks the control loop. Is this > correct? > > Or no matter what, the engine is still in the control loop? Not sure about yours, but mostly Japanese L-Jetronic systems made around that time, if I recall correctly, went out of closed loop when the door on the air flow meter was completely open and rpm continued to rise. For 2.6 l Toyota and the 2.8 l Nissan sixes, this occurred somewhere around 4400 rpm. The computer reverts to a canned program at that point. As far as WOT reading on the TPS, I think, when in closed loop mode, it provided a little extra enrichment by stretching out the injector pulse width a hair. Cheers. From FHPREMACH at aol.com Mon May 10 06:09:31 1999 From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 02:09:31 -0400 Subject: Fuel injection plugs Message-ID: In a message dated 4/29/99 8:15:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jballeng at vt.edu writes: << Ok, I know this isnt right. If we had continously variable transmissions, we would be running them at peak torque not at wot. VE is greatest at peak torque, the reason we rev engines higher to acheive high horsepower is to combat inefficient gearing Please find some back issues of Racecar Engineering and read the article by AAEN engineering about CVT and racing in the SCCA sportscar racing, there is some very good info. Fred From FHPREMACH at aol.com Mon May 10 06:52:38 1999 From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 02:52:38 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: In a message dated 5/7/99 7:20:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, claresnyder at home.com writes: << All the idea of using reed valves would do is improve the low end torque - exactly what we want, while staying open at high speeds to reduce obstruction - which we also want. If they lock open at 2000 RPM on a 2 stroke you should get some effect up to about 4000 RPM on a 4 stroker - which sounds pretty good to me. >> Aren't you really just trying to compensate for having the wrong parameters in your motor? If you are on the street, live with a low rpm torque motor and if you race, design for that application. Stop trying to have everything, or you will have a "cresent wrench" motor, one that fits everything on paper, but can't fit into half the places it needs to. After you figure out how to fit the reed blocks in, then you need to figure out how to get the fuel to stop puddling in the way to big plenum volume. but then you will need to set up a system to increase the octane as the RPM goes up. I applaud the inventive nature of your work, but having gone down the road of this before, I can say that you will find a lot of better ways to make a motor work. Fred From nhoj at cd.chalmers.se Mon May 10 07:29:20 1999 From: nhoj at cd.chalmers.se (nhoj at cd.chalmers.se) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 03:29:20 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: You wrote: > 4,000 on a 175cc per cylinder engine (4 stroke). > As the air flow goes up your gonna need large reeds, inertia goes up, and > they drop in max rev effectiveness. > Or go to LOTS of little one, and then port volume goes to h---. > Again, the is just on th Yamahaha, and old info, but I haven't head of any > manufacturer going to reeds lately for auto use.... Crank case pre compression on a two stroke wouldn't work very well if the reeds stayed open. The key to performance at high RPMs is low weight, high stiffness and the proper shape. To get performance at low RPMs also, Boyesen's multi stage reeds can be used. Remember that 2000RPM is only 33Hz. Locking open at that frequency sounds improbable. 20,000RPM, sound more like it. Composite reeds, often using graphite, work well into the 9000's on outboards. The problem with composite reeds is that they don't last very long, however, the failure is not very dramatic. Metallic reeds, on the other hand, while long lasting, will tear an engine to pieces if they break at an inopportune moment. Maximizing reed cage area is important since larger reeds will give better flow. Now, anyone for a homegrown EFI system for 2-stroke outboard ? Regards, John Hornkvist From mwichstr at online.no Mon May 10 08:11:49 1999 From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 04:11:49 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: The Honda vtec engine impresses me, 1,8l, 207hp at 8500rpm. Same torque as other 1.8l at lower rpm...... A poor mans Vtec for big cubes it could be something..... My consern is to have a engine that performs better i all rpms. Look at your torque curve, is it not flat does it stop to early? The arias that are low could probably be fixed with reeds or a system simular to what Alex describes.Its one thing that I think is a fault in engineering todays engines, and that is to use thiese heavy valves that can stand the combustion pressures to control a few psi......A valve that is to controll thise low pressures can be made much faster acclerating and have a bigger dynamic working aria. The reed way is a do it yourself way.If you do it this way you dont have to have a rollercam and heavy spring pressure to open and close the valves fast, and all the other items that you need to beef up your valve system, you need more timing on your camshaft but gentle movements. Offcurse you need to have the same size air path that you would use in your max hp effort. Please Fred , tell us more about your reed setup and your experiance with it. Espen ---------- > From: FHPREMACH at aol.com > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Espen's Reed Valves > Date: 10. mai 1999 08:51 > > In a message dated 5/7/99 7:20:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > claresnyder at home.com writes: > > << All the idea of using reed valves would do is improve the low end torque - > exactly what we want, while staying open at high speeds to reduce > obstruction - which we also want. If they lock open at 2000 RPM on a 2 > stroke you should get some effect up to about 4000 RPM on a 4 stroker - > which sounds pretty good to me. >> > > Aren't you really just trying to compensate for having the wrong parameters > in your motor? If you are on the street, live with a low rpm torque motor and > if you race, design for that application. Stop trying to have everything, or > you will have a "cresent wrench" motor, one that fits everything on paper, > but can't fit into half the places it needs to. After you figure out how to > fit the reed blocks in, then you need to figure out how to get the fuel to > stop puddling in the way to big plenum volume. but then you will need to set > up a system to increase the octane as the RPM goes up. I applaud the > inventive nature of your work, but having gone down the road of this before, > I can say that you will find a lot of better ways to make a motor work. > Fred From sknight at mich.com Mon May 10 11:03:54 1999 From: sknight at mich.com (Scott Knight) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 07:03:54 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: > Actually, on one Ford I have worked on, the oil pressure gauge was connected > to a standard idiot light switch. The gauge reads half when the switch is > closed and zero when the switch is open. Replacing the switch with a sender > made the gauge not work at all. This was on a 87 T-bird with digital dash. > I think Ford does this on other models as well. Must some of those engineers defected over to GM to work on the B-car a few years ago, because that is the way all the LT1's are. Gauge reads over 2/3 when running and zero when shut off. The way to change it over to a true pressure sending unit is to remove an inline resistor and add one to ground in the signal circuit (at least on the GM). Oh yeah, the stock switch is about 5 psi also :^(. Later dates. -- Scott Knight mailto:sknight at mich.com http://www.mich.com/~sknight IRC:SS396man '95 Black Impala SS '94 Ducati 900SS CR From pford at qnx.com Mon May 10 12:23:33 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:23:33 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: Previously, you (DemonTSi at aol.com) wrote: another alternative is the diaphram used in washing machines they work in inches of water ( put a restrictor to prevent backfire from poping it) > In a message dated 5/8/99 5:54:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > EdDSP at ix.netcom.com writes: > > << Here's what I'm doing. I'd like to mount a switch on an intake manifold > that'll work once there is positive pressure (boost). Such a switch > exist? A part # would be most appreciated too. >> and the washer machine one is adjustible > > The lowest psi activated switch I've ever seen was a 3psi unit...that goes > for like 125 bucks! You can get an adjustable hobbs one (sold for use with > nos systems) that activates at 5psi for like under 10 bucks. Then you can use > a regulator or other restrictor inline and adjust it to show the switch the > psi you need. > > Van -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 10 13:16:22 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:16:22 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: Please don't confuse operating rpm of the engine with the effective range of the reeds. The Yamhahaha, I mention was a 10,500 shift point engine. But, at any engine speed over about 2,000 rpm you could see the stand off in the intake tract meaning the reeds had "blown" open. Yes reeds can "vibrate" at high frequencies (just look at a clarinet), but that doesn't mean that as a check valve they will actually perform that way. Grumpy > Crank case pre compression on a two stroke wouldn't work very well if the > reeds stayed open. > The key to performance at high RPMs is low weight, high stiffness and the > proper shape. To get performance at low RPMs also, Boyesen's multi stage > reeds can be used. > Remember that 2000RPM is only 33Hz. Locking open at that frequency sounds > improbable. 20,000RPM, sound more like it. > Composite reeds, often using graphite, work well into the 9000's on > outboards. The problem with composite reeds is that they don't last very > long, however, the failure is not very dramatic. Metallic reeds, on the other > hand, while long lasting, will tear an engine to pieces if they break at an > inopportune moment. > Maximizing reed cage area is important since larger reeds will give better flow. > Now, anyone for a homegrown EFI system for 2-stroke outboard ? > Regards, > John Hornkvist From realsquash at yahoo.com Mon May 10 13:28:01 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:28:01 -0400 Subject: 730edit program Message-ID: I have the first 10 or so switches (or call them tables if you want) and the main VE and the upper and regular spark tables. The user interface is crude at this point, but my goal is to edit bins, not look fancy. Andy --- The Punisher wrote: > How is the 730 edit program coming along? > The gm eprom editor that My friend is writing me > will be a couple of months > away, The program wont take long but he just cannot > spare the time yet. What > tables and switches do you have incorporated into > yours so far ? > Hope it turns out good, because the other stuff I > have seen so far is less > than impressive IMHO. > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit > http://www.msn.com > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From m.s.bower at cummins.com Mon May 10 13:28:16 1999 From: m.s.bower at cummins.com (Matt S Bower) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:28:16 -0400 Subject: absurd pressures figures was: atomization enhancement Message-ID: Jennifer and Brock Fraser wrote: > > The Cummins ISB and ISC engines (at least most of their applications) use > Bosch VP44 pumps, which is basically a warmed over version of the good ole > rotary pump, but will full electronic authority over timing and delivery. > They are headed for common rail. You have to understand that emissions regs > drive these changes, and Tier 2 isn't being phased in for "off-road" until > 2002 for the most popular of rated power ranges. VP44's still use poppet > valves, and are NOT particularly high pressure systems (1000-1100 BAR), > although they do a better job than something like a Stanadyne or Lucas > rotary pump. Stanadyne or Lucas rotary pumps, as I mentioned before, are > only good for about 600-700 BAR. We fondly call these "drip pumps" or even > "gravity injection". Possibly this will help illustrate the frame of > reference. > > -Brock The ISC is Cummins CAPS fuel system. As well as the ISD or ISL (same engine) Which is the bored and stroked ISC, same block etc. Diffenece only in that the fuel control is done by injectors on the pump with an extra effect of using injector plungers to increase fuel pressure for low rpm. Very much different from the VP44 but uses the same principals of operation. Good Post! From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 10 13:38:04 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:38:04 -0400 Subject: L-jetronic mods Message-ID: While lots of folks laugh at Fiats, they happen to be very well designed, for what they are intended to be. Anyway: My suggestion is go to a junk yard and snag a 1227749, and just start with that. The Bosch while nice is going to get rare, and the Air Door will jam from a back fire (just a matter of time, IMHO). The 1227749 is what is used in the GM syclones, and uses a 2 bar calibration, MAP sensor, so you don't run out of "table space". There is a $15 prom editor at the syty home page.. By using the Sunbird chip it's for 4 cylinder to begin with. Can be wired for P+H, or Saturated injectors. Other than checking to see if the TPS is a 0-5v signal, and VSS compatability, might be easier then where your headed.. I'm not in favor of hammering the calibration from NA to 7 PSI, Doc > Hello. I'm new to the list (sort of), so forgive me this subject has been > covered before. > I installed a custom turbo system on my 1980 Fiat Spider. Building the > system was a task itself but getting the engine to resist detontation has > been an uphill battle. If detonation is as destructive as what everybody > describes, then my engine would have been toast months ago because my > engine has shown no ill effects. So far anyway. > I had been running a few band-aid solutions such as water/alcohol > injection, timing retard, etc. but these are getting old. My real problem > is fuel enrichment. > Here's some specs: > 2 liter/twin cam/hemi design > C/R: 8.1:1 (factory), current unknown, head was resurfaced during the last > rebuild. > Bosch L-jetronic fuel injection system w/lambda sensor > Turbo: Rayjay 301 > Boost: 7 pounds > gasoline : 93 octane (of course) > Fuel enrichement device, rising rate fuel pressure regulator and a 2nd cold > start valve mounted upstream triggered at around 2 pounds. > With these specifications, this engine should handle 7 pounds of boost with > no problems. That is with proper fuel enrichment, but I can't figure out > how to get more fuel into the engine. > The most frustrating thing is, the potentional is there, I just don't know > how to unlock it. > The other day, I was able to trick the computer into dumping more fuel into > the motor than it could handle, to the point the car was smothering and > belching black smoke out out the exhaust at 7 pounds. The engine seemed to > handle the extra amount of fuel until the contacts in the throttle position > switch closed and dumped too much fuel. > I did this by installing a set of boost switches which adds resistance > (about 2000 ohms) between the computer and coolant temperature sensor. This > doesn't work on my car because I've got a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. > My latest experiment was to splice a Hobbs pressure switch between the > oxygen sensor and computer. As soon as I hit boost (.1 pounds) the control > loop is disrupted. > Today the temperature was near 80F and the car seemed to do OK. > Can someone tell me this: > I was under the impression that when the engine is under wide open > throttle, the throttle position switch breaks the control loop. Is this > correct? > Or no matter what, the engine is still in the control loop? > My theory is that any attempts to get more fuel into the engine are being > overiden by the oxygen sensor even under wide open throttle, but by > breaking the control loop, now I can get more fuel into the engine. > Seems like my latest attempt has worked by I would still be more > comfortable knowing that I am getting the most fuel I can get into my motor > without causing the car to choke. > > Here's a rundown of my current setup: > > 1) rising rate fuel pressure regulator > 2) 2nd cold start valve mounted upstream before the throttle body triggered > at around 2 pounds. > 3) Oxygen sensor to computer broken at .1 pounds > > I would like to do away with the 2nd cold start valve and use the injectors > as my sole source for fuel because I know they have the potential when the > fuel pressure is stepped up. > > Also I want to point out that during the experiment where I got too much > fuel into the engine was done with the 2nd cold start valve disconnected. > > What could I do to increase the pulse rate of the injectors? My attempt to > create my own boost switch didn't work. I tried rigging up another pressure > switch with several rated resistors (600-1000 ohms) in parallel but the CPU > didn't like this. > > Also is there anything to my latest experiment by breaking the circuit > between the oxygen sensor and computer under boost? > > If you guys need anymore details, just email me. > > This fuel injection system has been around for 25 years so I am sure there > is someone on here that knows how to trick this system. > > Should I just have the injectors remapped to flow more fuel and run a lower > fuel pressure so the engine won't run rich at idle and cruise? > > Great Scott! I'm running out of options here. Someone help me! > > Thanks. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net > Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ > ICQ # : 7344463 > > United States > > 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) > 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) > 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) > 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) > 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > From dcsmith at bytes.net Mon May 10 14:01:38 1999 From: dcsmith at bytes.net (DC Smith) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:01:38 -0400 Subject: L-jetronic mods Message-ID: James, I ran a non-intercooled turbo Buick for years. (didn't see a intercooler listed) Knock city on a hot day at under 10 lbs of boost with 93 octane in the tank. It wasn't because the car was lean, it was because of the temp of the charge entering the motor. Are you sure it needs more fuel? Do you have a scan tool that'll give you some O2 numbers? Maybe a EGT meter? I can't help you with tweaking the Bosch injection, (maybe bigger injectors?) but there are a few things all turbo motors need to be able to crank it up. Also, if there is any oil getting burned at all, it will knock down the octane kick of your fuel considerably. Just a few ideas. Take care Major snipage to follow.. :) James Seabolt wrote: > > Hello. I'm new to the list (sort of), so forgive me this subject has been > covered before. > > I installed a custom turbo system on my 1980 Fiat Spider. Building the > system was a task itself but getting the engine to resist detontation has > been an uphill battle. If detonation is as destructive as what everybody > describes, then my engine would have been toast months ago because my > engine has shown no ill effects. So far anyway. *********************************************************************** Dan Smith 84 Regal 12.13 at 112 GSCA# 1459 St.Charles, Missouri mailto:dcsmith at bytes.net http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral *********************************************************************** From owly at mcn.net Mon May 10 14:11:18 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:11:18 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: John wrote: >>>>>>>>>> major snip <<<<<<<<<< >Now, anyone for a homegrown EFI system for 2-stroke outboard ? > >Regards, >John Hornkvist > I'm interested..... let's hear about it ;-) H.W. From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 10 14:27:24 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:27:24 -0400 Subject: 730 on a 406 small block Message-ID: Well, there's a basic problem here: Firing four P+H injectors. The only gm ecm that does that is the 1227749. You can do the Series Parralel (?) injector wiring but injector low speed response is lacking, ie less than (from memory) 2.0 msec. (to run a 730) A 749 will see a 730 memcal, thou no TCC (not that it matters here), I've run an astrovan v-8 conversion with a 749/730, but never did finish the cal or indepth testing. This uses non "standard" pinouts to work, and really is getting deep for a heavy duty drivetrain, like ya got. It might just be easier referring to M Pitts postings about the injector drivers he used and go that route, with an external driver board for whatever ecm you use. While the 730 is no doubt a nice box, the firing strategy is for Batch. The 747 is for TBI, also, much easier to work with table wise. The 747 doesn't have IAT compensation, but for your combo you'll probably be shutting alot of stuff off anyway. Also, no radiator fan control. I'm at a total loss about how a tunnel ram will work. That might be a huge source of signal dampening for the MAP, and can be any of two ways, fine, or, too self dampening. You might want to go thru the archives some, and read some about fuel pressure regulators, and what I did with two, ref TBIs. Grumpy > >Weight of car?, Auto/Manual tranny?, Final Drive Gearing?. > >Your running two. of the 4-barrel units?. > >Or two 2 barrel units. > >You want to start with the TBI, and then go port??. > 3250 lbs aprox with driver, turbo400 trans with 2500-3000 stall converter. > 3.73 gears. dual 670cfm 2 barrel holley projections with 80 pound injectors. > I already have all the TBI stuff (and it looks good on the tunnel ram too), > but later I plan to weld up a new plenum top for the tunnel ram and go port. From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com Mon May 10 15:12:26 1999 From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:12:26 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: Please send any info to Don F. Broadus at ucm.com thank you for your time and research. > -----Original Message----- > From: G. Scott Ponton [SMTP:gscottp at ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 10:44 AM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus > > Don, > > The system should be fairly easy for you to impliment. The problem I > had > was fitting an HEI behind a Tripower intake. With the rear carb so far > back > there wasn't room for an HEI distributor. So I had to manufacture my own > and mount the rest of the HEI circiutry to a heat sink mounted elsewhere. > Unless the rest on the list are willing to read all of this I think it > may be better if we took the discussion "off list" and save the bandwidth. > > Scott From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com Mon May 10 15:39:37 1999 From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:39:37 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: Ford had 3 Hobbs switches mounted on the fender of the 4 cyl. turbo mustang check at your local U-Pull-it . Don > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Ford [SMTP:pford at qnx.com] > Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 7:23 AM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch > > Previously, you (DemonTSi at aol.com) wrote: > > another alternative is the diaphram used in washing machines they work in > inches of water ( put a restrictor to prevent backfire from poping it) > > > In a message dated 5/8/99 5:54:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > EdDSP at ix.netcom.com writes: > > > > << Here's what I'm doing. I'd like to mount a switch on an intake > manifold > > that'll work once there is positive pressure (boost). Such a switch > > exist? A part # would be most appreciated too. >> > > and the washer machine one is adjustible > > > > > The lowest psi activated switch I've ever seen was a 3psi unit...that > goes > > for like 125 bucks! You can get an adjustable hobbs one (sold for use > with > > nos systems) that activates at 5psi for like under 10 bucks. Then you > can use > > a regulator or other restrictor inline and adjust it to show the switch > the > > psi you need. > > > > Van > > > -- > Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com > QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews > (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 10 17:12:37 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:12:37 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: Fred, You're probably aware that a 30+% loss can be attained by using a stock or aftermarket WET (Made for Carburetor) intake for a fuel injection application (No turbo's involved) With this in mind, I believe a gain of 10-30% in power and gas mileage attained by switching from carb to FI would be negated by the lack of efficiency due to this phenomenon... what are ya'll's thoughts about this? This is kindof worrying me and is also beginning to make me double think my twin turbo FI 440/451 project... Thanks! Todd....!! ---------- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > a stock 350 ci engine. I?m looking for an EFI intake system for my twin > > turbo 434 ci engine. > > Aaaaah. > > > The guy putting the turbos together said that the stock TPI is a good choice > > because it will give me something really important for a fun to drive street > > car, great throttle response and low end torque. > > This is true, because the runners are smoothly curved, and long. Typically > longer runners give you more low-end torque, however at higher RPMs your engine > will wease to death. Several manufacturers have come up with variable length > runners... the one that sits in my mind is the new Ford Taurus... long runners > for low end grunt, and shorter parallel runners for higher RPMs. > > Instead of a 2500/3000rpm spool up range you could size for smaller turbos and > have them spool up faster, thus taking even more advantage of the longer > runners... but then your high end will suffer from runner length as before, but > even more from grossly undersized turbos. but, it will take off the line quite > nicely. > > I'm doing this with my Dodge truck actually... 383 cid stroked to 431, two small > turbos, then a max RPM of 4000 RPM. Great for towing, not top speed. Its a > 6000lb truck anyway :) > > You might get more performance by using a much larger throttle body, and doing > some runner port work. > > > with 15 lbs of boost it seems to me that the stock TPI is still small for a > > 434 performance engine, or will the boost really make up the difference for > > the small tubes? > > I believe the velocity would be too great for your engine... but I am not an > expert in this area. For my dodge engine, I've already drilled out the > manifold, welded in injector bungs, and going to use the TPI GM setup to manage > the dodge motor, and instead of the GM TPI manifold, I'm just using the dodge > intake with all the GM "stuff" attached. You might consider that approach for > your engine... chose a carb manifold that suits your needs and application, then > mill into it some injector bungs. Its a fair amount of work, but in the end I > believe its worth it. > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > > Xephic Technology > "Leadership in IT" > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com > Voice: (203) 372-2707 > Fax: (603) 372-1147 From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 10 17:12:40 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:12:40 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: With what you say in mind, then WHY does a STOCK 426 Hemi SONGLE intake runner flow about 300 cfm each, from the factory?? Just wonderin... I have heard that you want your cfm to be about 30% MORE than what is theoretically required, due to our nonprefect world operating environment and all... Thanks for your formula's and input in this subject, it's enlightening... Todd....!! --------- Greg Hermann wrote: > > >Thanks to Ken, Todd & Gary for your answers regarding CFM. Perhaps I didn?t > >ask the question correctly. A stock TPI runs out of flow about 4800 rpm on > >a stock 350 ci engine. I?m looking for an EFI intake system for my twin > >turbo 434 ci engine. > > > >The guy putting the turbos together said that the stock TPI is a good choice > >because it will give me something really important for a fun to drive street > >car, great throttle response and low end torque. > > > > How fast are you planning to turn the engine? Say for a 434, 5400 will be it? > > Then, the engine will be trying to breathe in 434 x 5400 x 0.5 x 1/1728 , > or 678 cfm at the highest speed you will be turning it. The runners to each > cylinder will be wanting to flow 1/8 of this much, or about 85 cfm each. > > The trick is to size everything in the flow path so that you do not have > excessive pressure drop at any one point in the path at the amount of flow > the engine wants to draw in. What the guy talking to you is missing is that > with a pressurized intake--the pressure drop in the runners is proportional > to the density of the air flowing through them! > > Of course--you will also have proportionally more pressure you can afford > to lose with the turbo motor, So whatever will work well with the same size > and speed range NA motor is pretty close for a turbo motor. Going maybe a > fuzz BIGGER than what you would use for a similar size/speed NA motor will > tend to lower backpressure from the turbo on the motor, and lower EGT's > some. > > Going any smaller than what you would run on an NA 434 would hurt > performance some, and durability more. > > Flow on the inlet side of the turbos will be the amount of air the engine > breathes times the manifold density ratio--a LOT more cfm. Everything on > the inlet side of the turbos should be sized accordingly, and also to have > VERY low pressure losses at this design flow The amount of back pressure > which the turbo(s) will put on the engine to make a given amount of boost > is EXTREMELY sensitive to losses in the inlet tract to the turbos!. > > Regards, Greg From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 10 17:12:52 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:12:52 -0400 Subject: alternative engines Message-ID: Well Gary, I agree kindof... I believe that when we ever get our transporter technology perfected, we'll just be able to transport the EXACT correct air/fuel mixture straight to the combustion chamber without the need for any intake runners or anything like that!! As well as extract the exhaust from teh combustion chamber in the same manner!! WHALAA, almost perfect combustion every time! LATER! Todd....!! ---------- Gary Derian wrote: > > You have to stop thinking in a 3 dimensional Newtonian space and think in a > 4 dimensional space-time continuum. Fortunately, EFI operates in 3D space > for now, in a few years, the electronics will take advantage of quantum > effects. > > Gary Derian > > > Thanks for that insight Mike! > > > > However, I must ask: > > > > You mention that the Sun warps space... > > > > If Space is a LACK of everything, thus meaning that it is truly NOTHING, > > then how can NOTHING be WARPED?? > > > > Please explain? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Todd....!! > > From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 10 17:12:54 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:12:54 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: The ONLY reason 'space' 'exists' is because we SAY it exists, there is no other determining factor except that. Theoretical Space is just that space, NO MASS. Space as a location/region known as OUTER space, sure, it can and does contain mass, however, within these masses, within each molecule of these masses and between the eletrons and protons and neutrons there is still SPACE, SURe the electrons, protons, and neutrons are made up of even smaller particles, and between these particles there is still even MORE SPACE.... If you look at a molecule of say, hydrogen, and look at the 'SPACE' IN BETWEEN the electrons and the center where the proton and neutron are located, there is nothing there!! Just like in OUTER SPACE there is 'nothing' in between the moon and the Earths atmosphere except a few objects such as space trash and satellites!! Are we deep yet? Back to FI....Am about to rebuild a VACUUM 750 Holley, any tips? LATER! Todd....!! A70Duster at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/7/1999 10:46:08 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > gderian at oh.verio.com writes: > > << > Thanks for that insight Mike! > > > > However, I must ask: > > > > You mention that the Sun warps space... > > > > If Space is a LACK of everything, thus meaning that it is truly NOTHING, > > then how can NOTHING be WARPED?? > > > > Please explain? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Todd....!! > > >> > > Oh God, U had to ask. Space, like a vacuum and where satellites cruse in > orbit, is where something can exist. Even space is quantized. Very, very, > very many packets of space exist together to create the visible universe that > we live in. Anything with mass distorts the "uniform" close proximity > packing of space packets. > > So space is something. It's massless, energyless and momentumless. But it > is a region where mass, energy and momentum can exist. > > The are MANY questions on regions where normal space does not exist (i.e., > Black holes, beyond our universe for example). > > Now returning to EFI...... From jseabolt at intermediatn.net Mon May 10 17:42:07 1999 From: jseabolt at intermediatn.net (James Seabolt) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:42:07 -0400 Subject: 5th injector Message-ID: One more thing I could add to my dilema. Since there is no way to adjust the fuel flow of my second cold start valve other than when the fuel pressure increases (despite that it's still not spraying enough fuel at 7 pounds of boost), I have been thinking of replacing it with an actual fuel injector from the same system. Then controlling the pulse rate using a 555 timer IC and a potentiomter. Then I can control the pulse rate from the dash. I think 555 is right, it's been awhile since my college days. The injectors used in the Bosch L-jetronic system should operate at 4 volts. I think. I don't know of any voltage regulators that would step down the voltage to 4 volts. I suppose I could use a regulator that steps the voltage down to 5 volts and install a resistor to bring it down an extra volt. Has anyone ever built a system like this using the above components? I've seen 5th injector units in books but don't know where to purchase one. Micro Dynamics makes them, but I don't think they are sold in the United States. But I would rather build my own system. After all that's what this mailing list is about. Building your own stuff rather than going out and buying them. ---------------------------------------------------------- James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ ICQ # : 7344463 United States 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) ---------------------------------------------------------- From hobiegary at earthlink.net Mon May 10 17:52:28 1999 From: hobiegary at earthlink.net (GARY) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:52:28 -0400 Subject: Hessitation in Late Model Subarus Message-ID: Thank you everyone for all your input on Knock Sensor and associated engine hesitation problems. I am still fiddling around with mine and have taken on a partner, via email, with the same problem with and interest in Subarus. I am digesting all of what has been suggested and am doing a small amount of experimentation. My partner found a web site that has a guy named Mike Chaney who is a GM knock sensor hacker. I have emailed him and invited him to join this group. He has a formula for desensitizing the knock sensor, and his web site offers a real cool little program that tells you what resistor values to use for any given resistance of knock sensor according to what percentage of dampening you wish for. He adds a resistor in series with the KS and parallels the KS with new resistor, with another resistor to maintain a circuit resistance equivalent to stock. His instructions show that for a ten percent decrease in signal strength, you ad a resistor in series with your KS of a value that is 10 percent of the resistance of the knock sensor. What do you think of that? here is his website url: http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/f-tech.htm While I like the idea of the two resistors, one for dampening generated signal and one for maintaining overall circuit original resistance, I question how he came up with his formula for the percentage of dampening. I have emailed him and inquired. As for my wish to manipulate the ignition timing (not knock sensor related here), I am still searching. Superchips has been of no help but looked promising at first! They report that no IconRace product is available for my car. They told me that they should be able to chip it, but have not seen one. I think they are wrong as my EPROM type of ECU resembles what they refer to as "previously unchippable." Thanks again everyone and I'm all ears once again. -- GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Mon May 10 17:56:40 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:56:40 -0400 Subject: 5th injector Message-ID: > > Since there is no way to adjust the fuel flow of my second cold start valve > other than when the fuel pressure increases (despite that it's still not > spraying enough fuel at 7 pounds of boost), I have been thinking of > replacing it with an actual fuel injector from the same system. > > Then controlling the pulse rate using a 555 timer IC and a potentiomter. > Then I can control the pulse rate from the dash. > > I think 555 is right, it's been awhile since my college days. > > The injectors used in the Bosch L-jetronic system should operate at 4 > volts. I think. I don't know of any voltage regulators that would step down > the voltage to 4 volts. I suppose I could use a regulator that steps the > voltage down to 5 volts and install a resistor to bring it down an extra volt. Why would the injector be run at 4 volts? I've only seen BOSCH and other injectors that were made for 12 volts. The ECM usually just grounds one side to turn it on and the other side goes to 12 volts when the key is on. Best bet is have it pulse at a specific rate, but adjust the Pulse width as boost increases. From realsquash at yahoo.com Mon May 10 18:23:04 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:23:04 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: >-- "Todd....!!" wrote: > > With this in mind, I believe a gain of 10-30% in > power and gas mileage > attained by switching from carb to FI would be > negated by the lack of > efficiency due to this phenomenon... You will gain tunability, throttle response, and depending on how your engine is built, you can "tame" it a bit. And you can't flood an EFI. I just read an article where a 502GM engine had a single-plane intake with a 4bbl 1000cfm TB on it and injectors mounted in the ports. They installed and tweaked a 750cfm (or was it 850cfm?) holley carb on that intake and compared it to the EFI. The EFI won in HP and torque, not to mention starting and all the other givens. Andy _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jamesm at talarian.com Mon May 10 18:45:06 1999 From: jamesm at talarian.com (James Montebello) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:45:06 -0400 Subject: L-jetronic mods Message-ID: Around '80 - '81, the Fiat Spider was sold with a turbo in this country. It was, as I recall, an option added by the US importer, not a factory item. The same L-Jet was used, albeit recalibrated. I'd try and scare up some data on this conversion. I'd guess that the conversion parts couldn't have been all that expensive or exotic, given the origin, nor could I imagine extensive modifications were done to the L-Jet to get it to work. james montebello > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of > James Seabolt > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 10:24 PM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: L-jetronic mods > > > Hello. I'm new to the list (sort of), so forgive me this > subject has been > covered before. > > I installed a custom turbo system on my 1980 Fiat Spider. Building the > system was a task itself but getting the engine to resist > detontation has > been an uphill battle. If detonation is as destructive as > what everybody > describes, then my engine would have been toast months ago because my > engine has shown no ill effects. So far anyway. > > I had been running a few band-aid solutions such as water/alcohol > injection, timing retard, etc. but these are getting old. My > real problem > is fuel enrichment. > > Here's some specs: > > 2 liter/twin cam/hemi design > C/R: 8.1:1 (factory), current unknown, head was resurfaced > during the last > rebuild. > Bosch L-jetronic fuel injection system w/lambda sensor > Turbo: Rayjay 301 > Boost: 7 pounds > gasoline : 93 octane (of course) > > Fuel enrichement device, rising rate fuel pressure regulator > and a 2nd cold > start valve mounted upstream triggered at around 2 pounds. > > With these specifications, this engine should handle 7 pounds > of boost with > no problems. That is with proper fuel enrichment, but I can't > figure out > how to get more fuel into the engine. > > The most frustrating thing is, the potentional is there, I > just don't know > how to unlock it. > > The other day, I was able to trick the computer into dumping > more fuel into > the motor than it could handle, to the point the car was > smothering and > belching black smoke out out the exhaust at 7 pounds. The > engine seemed to > handle the extra amount of fuel until the contacts in the > throttle position > switch closed and dumped too much fuel. > > I did this by installing a set of boost switches which adds resistance > (about 2000 ohms) between the computer and coolant > temperature sensor. This > doesn't work on my car because I've got a rising rate fuel > pressure regulator. > > My latest experiment was to splice a Hobbs pressure switch between the > oxygen sensor and computer. As soon as I hit boost (.1 > pounds) the control > loop is disrupted. > > Today the temperature was near 80F and the car seemed to do OK. > > Can someone tell me this: > > I was under the impression that when the engine is under wide open > throttle, the throttle position switch breaks the control > loop. Is this > correct? > > Or no matter what, the engine is still in the control loop? > > My theory is that any attempts to get more fuel into the > engine are being > overiden by the oxygen sensor even under wide open throttle, but by > breaking the control loop, now I can get more fuel into the engine. > > Seems like my latest attempt has worked by I would still be more > comfortable knowing that I am getting the most fuel I can get > into my motor > without causing the car to choke. > > Here's a rundown of my current setup: > > 1) rising rate fuel pressure regulator > 2) 2nd cold start valve mounted upstream before the throttle > body triggered > at around 2 pounds. > 3) Oxygen sensor to computer broken at .1 pounds > > I would like to do away with the 2nd cold start valve and use > the injectors > as my sole source for fuel because I know they have the > potential when the > fuel pressure is stepped up. > > Also I want to point out that during the experiment where I > got too much > fuel into the engine was done with the 2nd cold start valve > disconnected. > > What could I do to increase the pulse rate of the injectors? > My attempt to > create my own boost switch didn't work. I tried rigging up > another pressure > switch with several rated resistors (600-1000 ohms) in > parallel but the CPU > didn't like this. > > Also is there anything to my latest experiment by breaking the circuit > between the oxygen sensor and computer under boost? > > If you guys need anymore details, just email me. > > This fuel injection system has been around for 25 years so I > am sure there > is someone on here that knows how to trick this system. > > Should I just have the injectors remapped to flow more fuel > and run a lower > fuel pressure so the engine won't run rich at idle and cruise? > > Great Scott! I'm running out of options here. Someone help me! > > Thanks. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net > Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ > ICQ # : 7344463 > > United States > > 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) > 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) > 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) > 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) > 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > From owly at mcn.net Mon May 10 18:54:44 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:54:44 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: I have given more than a little thought to the possibility of an EFI system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. The idea being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the timing is irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or more. Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The injectors would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase pulse rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased thereafter. Such a system could be operated based on mathematical formulae rather than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT could modify the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air density should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle minor dicrepancies. A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes from the desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because of RPM dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only in the context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only directly related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, Throttle Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF tells us how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system must then work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for that rate to achieve the desired delivery per unit time. If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse width per pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many pulses per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. At some point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that point pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be modified above that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you are changing the simple the program becomes. Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but then I'm a simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of thought. H.W. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Mon May 10 19:22:33 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:22:33 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: > > And you can't flood an EFI. > Actually, you can! Been there, Done that! From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 10 19:25:25 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:25:25 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: One thing I've been musing over is something similiar. But way over driving the injectors as a function of rpm. That way I could use say two ecms one for timing (a v-8, as a v-8, on a v-8) Then one for fuel at say the injector firing rate of a 6 cylinder. Bruce > I have given more than a little thought to the possibility of an EFI > system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. The idea > being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the timing is > irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or more. > Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The injectors > would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase pulse > rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased thereafter. > Such a system could be operated based on mathematical formulae rather > than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT could modify > the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give > accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air density > should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle minor > dicrepancies. > A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes from the > desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because of RPM > dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only in the > context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only directly > related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, Throttle > Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF tells us > how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system must then > work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for that rate to > achieve the desired delivery per unit time. > If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse width per > pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many pulses > per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. At some > point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that point > pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be modified above > that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you are > changing the simple the program becomes. > Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but then I'm a > simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of thought. > H.W. From A70Duster at aol.com Mon May 10 20:07:15 1999 From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:07:15 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: Been there, done that. Very difficult for idle control. Too much fuel at idle because the injector duration is shorter that the injector ON/OFF transition period. Maybe at low MAF numbers (idle, low rpm cruse) increase the period of the injector to get decent idle fuel injection control. See ya, Mike From gderian at oh.verio.com Mon May 10 20:12:26 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:12:26 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: A single runner flows for only 1/3 to 1/4 of an engine cycle. Gary Derian > With what you say in mind, then WHY does a STOCK 426 Hemi SONGLE intake > runner flow about 300 cfm each, from the factory?? > > Just wonderin... > > I have heard that you want your cfm to be about 30% MORE than what is > theoretically required, due to our nonprefect world operating > environment and all... > > Thanks for your formula's and input in this subject, it's > enlightening... > > Todd....!! > > --------- > > > > Greg Hermann wrote: > > > > >Thanks to Ken, Todd & Gary for your answers regarding CFM. Perhaps I didn?t > > >ask the question correctly. A stock TPI runs out of flow about 4800 rpm on > > >a stock 350 ci engine. I?m looking for an EFI intake system for my twin > > >turbo 434 ci engine. > > > > > >The guy putting the turbos together said that the stock TPI is a good choice > > >because it will give me something really important for a fun to drive street > > >car, great throttle response and low end torque. > > > > > > > How fast are you planning to turn the engine? Say for a 434, 5400 will be it? > > > > Then, the engine will be trying to breathe in 434 x 5400 x 0.5 x 1/1728 , > > or 678 cfm at the highest speed you will be turning it. The runners to each > > cylinder will be wanting to flow 1/8 of this much, or about 85 cfm each. > > > > The trick is to size everything in the flow path so that you do not have > > excessive pressure drop at any one point in the path at the amount of flow > > the engine wants to draw in. What the guy talking to you is missing is that > > with a pressurized intake--the pressure drop in the runners is proportional > > to the density of the air flowing through them! > > > > Of course--you will also have proportionally more pressure you can afford > > to lose with the turbo motor, So whatever will work well with the same size > > and speed range NA motor is pretty close for a turbo motor. Going maybe a > > fuzz BIGGER than what you would use for a similar size/speed NA motor will > > tend to lower backpressure from the turbo on the motor, and lower EGT's > > some. > > > > Going any smaller than what you would run on an NA 434 would hurt > > performance some, and durability more. > > > > Flow on the inlet side of the turbos will be the amount of air the engine > > breathes times the manifold density ratio--a LOT more cfm. Everything on > > the inlet side of the turbos should be sized accordingly, and also to have > > VERY low pressure losses at this design flow The amount of back pressure > > which the turbo(s) will put on the engine to make a given amount of boost > > is EXTREMELY sensitive to losses in the inlet tract to the turbos!. > > > > Regards, Greg > From lewisbn at email.uc.edu Mon May 10 20:48:36 1999 From: lewisbn at email.uc.edu (Brian Lewis) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:48:36 -0400 Subject: knock sensor Message-ID: Hello Everyone, I am thinking of adding a knock detection circuit to an engine management system that I am developing. What type of signal conditioning do I need to add a GM style sensor? What type of output does this sensor produce and how do I determine if detonation has occured? Are there any resources on this somewhere? Thanks in advance. Brian Lewis From realsquash at yahoo.com Mon May 10 21:03:39 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:03:39 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: --- "David A. Cooley" wrote: > > > > And you can't flood an EFI. > > > > Actually, you can! > Been there, Done that! I meant by means of the float bowls. Fuel slosh. Bogging. With EFI, you can fill your cylinders up with gas if that's what u wanna do! Andy _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From EOA at spartek.com Mon May 10 21:12:30 1999 From: EOA at spartek.com (Eric Aos) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:12:30 -0400 Subject: Did anyone see the employment ad at Callaway ? Message-ID: Software Engineer-Engine Management A hands on software engineer to develop the special sections of the GM/Delphi engine control unit for the Y car platform. Working on a consultant basis, relatively simple adjustments to such parameters as rev limits, torque thresholds, and display functions. Opening is immediate. From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 10 21:30:42 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:30:42 -0400 Subject: Did anyone see the employment ad at Callaway ? Message-ID: Subject: Did anyone see the employment ad at Callaway ? Yep, they been looking since X-mas Grumpy > Software Engineer-Engine Management > > A hands on software engineer to develop the special sections of the > GM/Delphi engine control unit for the Y car platform. Working on a > consultant basis, relatively simple adjustments to such parameters as > rev limits, torque thresholds, and display functions. Opening is > immediate. > From jseabolt at intermediatn.net Mon May 10 21:35:14 1999 From: jseabolt at intermediatn.net (James Seabolt) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:35:14 -0400 Subject: Hobbs pressure switches Message-ID: Someone wrote: > The lowest psi activated switch I've ever seen was a 3psi unit...that goes > for like 125 bucks! You can get an adjustable hobbs one (sold for use with > nos systems) that activates at 5psi for like under 10 bucks. Then you can use > a regulator or other restrictor inline and adjust it to show the switch the > psi you need. You can get these switches at NAPA. The two pole switches sell for $14. The three pole (Closed/normally open/normally closed) sells for more. The two pressure switches that Hobbs makes I know of are rated 3 to 10 pounds (two pole) and the other one is (.1 to 24 PSI) three pole. The later is the most versitile. ---------------------------------------------------------- James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ ICQ # : 7344463 United States 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) ---------------------------------------------------------- From jseabolt at intermediatn.net Mon May 10 21:51:17 1999 From: jseabolt at intermediatn.net (James Seabolt) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:51:17 -0400 Subject: L-jetronic mods Message-ID: "James Montebello" wrote: >Around '80 - '81, the Fiat Spider was sold with a turbo in this >country. It was, as I recall, an option added by the US importer, >not a factory item. The same L-Jet was used, albeit recalibrated. >I'd try and scare up some data on this conversion. I'd guess that >the conversion parts couldn't have been all that expensive or >exotic, given the origin, nor could I imagine extensive >modifications were done to the L-Jet to get it to work. I can tell you everything they did to it. They ran 6 pounds of boost and a really small turbo. Installed four sets of boost switches: #1) added 1700 ohms resistance at 1PSI to the coolant temperature circuit #2) added an additional 500 ohms at 5PSI #3) closed the contacts in the TPS at 1 pound (which dumps even more fuel) #4) overboost switch which did something at 9 pounds Installed INOX head gasket which has stainless steel inserts instead of copper. Despite being a little thicker I think this only dropped the C/R from 8.1:1 to 7.9:1 not much. Next thing they did was alter the advance curve from 28 degrees total advance to 10 degrees total advance. All they did was install a fixed clip in place of one of the springs. This really effect horsepower. That's it. The end result was an extra 18 horses! Just 18 horses at 6 pounds of boost. In theory 7 pounds equals 50% more power so the car should have went from 102 to at least 140. Some owners complained that when the boost switches kicked in, this dumped way to much fuel into the motor at once. Also the retarded timing caused the cast iron exhaust manifolds to warp. No oil cooler either. The Warner ISI turbo had a life expectantcy of no more than 20,000 miles. This is a good example of how not to design a turbo system. I think there was roughly 800 conversions done, most of which were converted back to original. ---------------------------------------------------------- James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ ICQ # : 7344463 United States 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) ---------------------------------------------------------- From rah at horizon.hit.net Mon May 10 21:52:07 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:52:07 -0400 Subject: knock sensor Message-ID: On Mon, 10 May 1999, Brian Lewis wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > I am thinking of adding a knock detection circuit to an engine management > system that I am developing. What type of signal conditioning do I need to > add a GM style sensor? What type of output does this sensor produce and how > do I determine if detonation has occured? Are there any resources on this > somewhere? Thanks in advance. > > Brian Lewis > I believe the GM sensor is basically a pizeo (sp?) microphone. There is a circuit in the ECM (it is a removable chip/module on 94+ vehicles or is in the chip carrier on pre-94 vehicle (f-bodies, unknown about other models)). I believe the circuit in the ECM is some sort of filter, it is my belief that a better knock sensor could be made with a more exoitic detection algorithm (DSP). It is also my belief that other stuff could be detected with this more exoitic setup (misfires? listen for the iginition and yell if it is not there). I believe the GM filter is a notch filter, and if the energy in the band gets above a certain amount it sends an output high which signals knock. The knock module in the block is a mic though. All of the "interesting" knock circuitry is in the ECM as a removable module or in the chip carrier in the ECM. Roger From jseabolt at intermediatn.net Mon May 10 21:52:53 1999 From: jseabolt at intermediatn.net (James Seabolt) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:52:53 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor trick Message-ID: Been running my car all day long with the O2 sensor disabled under boost. It has been around 86F today and not narry a sign of pinging! No water injection either! The real test will be this summer when it get's upto 95F. ---------------------------------------------------------- James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ ICQ # : 7344463 United States 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) ---------------------------------------------------------- From rah at horizon.hit.net Mon May 10 21:54:04 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:54:04 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: On Mon, 10 May 1999, Squash wrote: > --- "David A. Cooley" wrote: > > > > > > And you can't flood an EFI. > > > > > > > Actually, you can! > > Been there, Done that! > > I meant by means of the float bowls. Fuel slosh. > Bogging. With EFI, you can fill your cylinders up > with gas if that's what u wanna do! > > Andy I think with the EFI setups you can get quite a bit of fuel sitting in the intake and causing flooding. GM has a clear flood mode, you floor the pedal and it cuts the injectors off until you let up. Roger From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Mon May 10 21:57:50 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:57:50 -0400 Subject: knock sensor Message-ID: GM ECMs use a basic piezoelectric knock sensor. It's a microphone. It goes to what's called ESC, which does some sort of filtering that varies by application. Output of the ESC module is an on/off signal to the ECM that knock is occurring. On C3 style ECMs the ESC circuitry is a separate module, about 2" x 2" x .5". On P4 style ECMs it's on the module that also holds the EPROM. In general, some vary. Bruce did some work characterizing the response of ESC modules. If you're using a GM engine you can probably get an ESC module for it from the junkyard along with a sensor and be done with it. Lots of knock sensor info in the archives also. --steve Brian Lewis wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > > I am thinking of adding a knock detection circuit to an engine management > system that I am developing. What type of signal conditioning do I need to > add a GM style sensor? What type of output does this sensor produce and how > do I determine if detonation has occured? Are there any resources on this > somewhere? Thanks in advance. > > Brian Lewis From bearbvd at sni.net Mon May 10 22:19:09 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:19:09 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: >With what you say in mind, then WHY does a STOCK 426 Hemi SONGLE intake >runner flow about 300 cfm each, from the factory?? > >Just wonderin... > The Hemi runner may well flow 300 cfm at one of the two standard test pressures--this simply means that it will flow all the air that the engine wants at a far lower pressure drop than the standard test pressure. Say you Hemi is turning 6500 rpm, is the stock 426 cubes, and is good for 94% volumetric efficiency at 6500 rpm (optimistic, but a Hemi might do this well). OK--426/8 = 53.25 x .5 x 6500 / 1728 = 100.15 cfm of air flow to each cylinder. (Call it 100 cfm.) (But realize that this is an AVERAGE flow rate. It is higher when the valve is at maximum lift, and lower at partial valve lift, and non-existent when the valve is closed. Say the cam is such that the valve is off the seat to a significant degree 33% of the time (240 degrees of duration at .050" valve lift). Each intake runner flowed 300 cfm at a test pressure drop of 25" of H2O . (with a CONSTANT test flow rate, and probably at a valve lift of .650".) Well--first of all--the fact that the valve is only open 33% of the time means that the flow through the valve would have to average 300 cfm DURING THE TIME THAT THE VALVE IS OFF ITS SEAT, in order to achieve the AVERAGE 100 cfm flow calculated above. Next--things get more complicated--one would really need to integrate the area under the valve lift curve and the pressure drop in the port at various valve lifts, and so on, in order to figure out exactly how much air was flowing in the port at different parts of the valve lift curve, and at what pressure drop, in order for the engine to draw in the amount of air it consumes. It IS important to remember that the net effect of pressure drop as air flows through the inlet tract of an engine is less dense air filling the cylinders. Which translates into less oxygen to burn fuel, and therefore less power as the pressure drops increase. The flow bench numbers are hardly an exact indication of what goes on in real world flow inside an engine, but hopefully, the example above will illustrate why the standard flow bench test pressures for heads (either 25 or 28" of H2O, depending on who is doing the testing) are fairly realistic--that is to say--in the ballpark for the flow velocities which occur at maximum valve lift in a real engine. Regards, Greg From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Mon May 10 22:38:22 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:38:22 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: At 02:04 PM 5/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >--- "David A. Cooley" wrote: >> > >> > And you can't flood an EFI. >> > >> >> Actually, you can! >> Been there, Done that! > >I meant by means of the float bowls. Fuel slosh. >Bogging. With EFI, you can fill your cylinders up >with gas if that's what u wanna do! Ah.. Been there and done that too! It's a bear when you forgot to put the needle valve and seat back in and try to start the car! =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From jamesm at talarian.com Mon May 10 23:57:52 1999 From: jamesm at talarian.com (James Montebello) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:57:52 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: > I have given more than a little thought to the possibility of an EFI > system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. The idea > being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the timing is > irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or more. > Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. This is, essentially, what CIS (aka K-Jetronic) does. Airflow is the ONLY parameter used to adjust fuel flow rate, except for cold running and WOT operation. Engine speed isn't a factor at all. Designing an EFI system to emulate this is straightforward. However, if you plan on controlling ignition as well as fuel, you're going to need crank position and speed, anyway, so using it as part of the fuel delivery strategy doesn't add any more complexity. It also opens up a few new avenues of overcoming common problems. A MAF (or MAP or CIS) system is sensitive to reversion when high-lift, long-overlap cams are used. With given exhaust and intake systems, reversion will only take place at certain engine speed ranges, so it can be compensated for if the engine speed is known. More data is almost always better than less. The frequently forgotten other half of the KISS principle is: keep it simple, but not TOO simple. james montebello From wsherwin at idirect.com Tue May 11 00:18:58 1999 From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:18:58 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: >I just read an article where a 502GM engine had a >single-plane intake with a 4bbl 1000cfm TB on it and >injectors mounted in the ports. They installed and >tweaked a 750cfm (or was it 850cfm?) holley carb on >that intake and compared it to the EFI. The EFI won >in HP and torque, not to mention starting and all the >other givens. Neat! Where was this published? Walt. From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 11 00:27:33 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:27:33 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Todd....!! wrote: > > If you look at a molecule of say, hydrogen, and look at the 'SPACE' IN > BETWEEN the electrons and the center where the proton and neutron are > located, there is nothing there!! Just like in OUTER SPACE there is > 'nothing' in between the moon and the Earths atmosphere except a few > objects such as space trash and satellites!! No one has yet determined an absolute answer for those questions. What's to say your idea of nothing is the last word? Well, this post is my last word on this. > > Are we deep yet? > > Back to FI....Am about to rebuild a VACUUM 750 Holley, any tips? > > LATER! > > Todd....!! Dig a deep hole, insert the Holley, re install dirt. Is that deep enough? Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 11 01:00:02 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:00:02 -0400 Subject: Did anyone see the employment ad at Callaway ? Message-ID: Eric Aos wrote: > > Software Engineer-Engine Management > > A hands on software engineer to develop the special sections of the > GM/Delphi engine control unit for the Y car platform. Working on a > consultant basis, relatively simple adjustments to such parameters as > rev limits, torque thresholds, and display functions. Opening is > immediate. Maybe subcontract the job to DIY_EFI.. Shannen From owly at mcn.net Tue May 11 02:24:11 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:24:11 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: Mike: I beg your pardon here, but I was not able to translate this into something that fit into the framework of what I was talking about.... Ultra short duration was not contemplated. > > Too much fuel at >idle because the injector duration is shorter that the injector ON/OFF >transition period. > My thinking was to set injector duration more or less to what was required at idle, and increasing pulse rate with RPM... extreme short pulse duration would serve no purpose that I can see. Would you mind elaborating on this a little bit please? H.W. From bearbvd at sni.net Tue May 11 02:55:01 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:55:01 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: >Todd....!! wrote: > >> >> If you look at a molecule of say, hydrogen, and look at the 'SPACE' IN >> BETWEEN the electrons and the center where the proton and neutron are >> located, there is nothing there!! Just like in OUTER SPACE there is >> 'nothing' in between the moon and the Earths atmosphere except a few >> objects such as space trash and satellites!! > >No one has yet determined an absolute answer for those questions. >What's to say your idea of nothing is the last word? Well, this post >is my last word on this. > >> >> Are we deep yet? >> >> Back to FI....Am about to rebuild a VACUUM 750 Holley, any tips? >> >> LATER! >> >> Todd....!! > >Dig a deep hole, insert the Holley, re install dirt. >Is that deep enough? >Shannen But--I LIKE 3310's!! Greg From bearbvd at sni.net Tue May 11 02:58:12 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:58:12 -0400 Subject: Did anyone see the employment ad at Callaway ? Message-ID: >Eric Aos wrote: >> >> Software Engineer-Engine Management >> >> A hands on software engineer to develop the special sections of the >> GM/Delphi engine control unit for the Y car platform. Working on a >> consultant basis, relatively simple adjustments to such parameters as >> rev limits, torque thresholds, and display functions. Opening is >> immediate. > >Maybe subcontract the job to DIY_EFI.. >Shannen Bruce musta raised Grumpy's pay some--kinda surprised he's still in Arcanum, otherwise! Greg From realsquash at yahoo.com Tue May 11 03:07:31 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:07:31 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: The article is in the may 1999 issue of "Car Craft" magazine. You should buy it! 502EFI ended up with 591HP and 532lb/ft 502 with 850 holley on the same intake got 542HP and 524 lb/ft And that is across the RPM range, not just at the peak! Even with mismatched intake ports (peanut, rectangle, oval) the EFI made more HP and torque. But compared to the holley 850 and a dual-plane intake, they only managed to get less than 10 hp and 10 lb/ft of torque. So don't think that any EFI will blow away a carb under all circumstances! Andy --- Walter Sherwin wrote: > >I just read an article where a 502GM engine had a > >single-plane intake with a 4bbl 1000cfm TB on it > and > >injectors mounted in the ports. They installed and > >tweaked a 750cfm (or was it 850cfm?) holley carb on > >that intake and compared it to the EFI. The EFI > won > >in HP and torque, not to mention starting and all > the > >other givens. > > > > > Neat! Where was this published? > > Walt. > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Tue May 11 03:18:53 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:18:53 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: -> Please don't confuse operating rpm of the engine with the effective -> range of the reeds. The Yamhahaha, I mention was a 10,500 shift -> point engine. The owner of Boyesen, the major motorcycle reed valve aftermarket manufacturer, gave a talk on uses of reed valves in racing engines at the last Superflow conference in Colorado. From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 11 03:21:26 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:21:26 -0400 Subject: Did anyone see the employment ad at Callaway ? Message-ID: Ya might get him away from the steam threshers, but not the Pullers Doc Software Engineer-Engine Management > >> A hands on software engineer to develop the special sections of the > >> GM/Delphi engine control unit for the Y car platform. Working on a > >> consultant basis, relatively simple adjustments to such parameters as > >> rev limits, torque thresholds, and display functions. Opening is > >> immediate. > >Maybe subcontract the job to DIY_EFI.. > >Shannen > Bruce musta raised Grumpy's pay some--kinda surprised he's still in > Arcanum, otherwise! > Greg From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 11 03:50:52 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:50:52 -0400 Subject: Espen's Reed Valves Message-ID: And, > > -> Please don't confuse operating rpm of the engine with the effective > -> range of the reeds. The Yamhahaha, I mention was a 10,500 shift > -> point engine. > > The owner of Boyesen, the major motorcycle reed valve aftermarket > manufacturer, gave a talk on uses of reed valves in racing engines at > the last Superflow conference in Colorado. > > From nwester at eidnet.org Tue May 11 04:29:18 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 00:29:18 -0400 Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch Message-ID: Why don't you just use a MAP sensor from a turbo app ?? Lyndon IP TECH LWester at compuserv.com -----Original Message----- From: Ed To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 08, 1999 8:26 PM Subject: Looking for a 1-psi Hobbes switch >Here's what I'm doing. I'd like to mount a switch on an intake manifold >that'll work once there is positive pressure (boost). Such a switch >exist? A part # would be most appreciated too. > >-Ed From mwichstr at online.no Tue May 11 07:46:38 1999 From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 03:46:38 -0400 Subject: Reed Valves Message-ID: > The owner of Boyesen, the major motorcycle reed valve aftermarket > manufacturer, gave a talk on uses of reed valves in racing engines at > the last Superflow conference in Colorado. What did he say? From ngarav at yahoo.com Tue May 11 12:31:02 1999 From: ngarav at yahoo.com (Nahuel Garavaglia) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:31:02 -0400 Subject: L-jetronic mods Message-ID: Im looking for info about modify a L-jetronic equiped on a datsun, i read you message and find this: "There is a $15 prom editor at the syty home page.." whats the address? === Nahuel Garavaglia ngarav at yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 11 13:19:16 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:19:16 -0400 Subject: Fw: L-jetronic mods Message-ID: A foward from a lister Grumpy > Is the fuel pump up to the job? What is it's output vs. head presure > graph look like? As boost comes on and presure in the intake rises the > pump may not be able to supply enough fuel and you're running lean which > is causing your detonation problem. What are the reading from your O2 > sensor when under boost but not WOT? Use a digital multimeter for > this...you probably already know that however. From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 11 13:26:09 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:26:09 -0400 Subject: L-jetronic mods Message-ID: > Im looking for info about modify a L-jetronic equiped on a datsun, i > read you message and find this: > "There is a $15 prom editor at the syty home page.." > whats the address? http://syty at syty.org, that editor is for a gm 1227749 ecm.. Grumpy > === > Nahuel Garavaglia > > ngarav at yahoo.com > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com > From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 11 14:37:59 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:37:59 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics Message-ID: How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. After a 3 month wait, I got a Radio Shack, PC/laptop 2 Oscilloscope probe (They had run out at the master distribution center). For the EEs probably it has little to offer but, least for me, I got to see what the ALDL looks like.. One big feature is that you can pick what colors contrast best for you. So us ol timers can see what going on. On a side note, is there enough interest for me to put together some notes on an ecm bench?. I got some digitial photos, to go along with it, just don't want to clutter the DIY stuff if not many are interested. Bruce From rah at horizon.hit.net Tue May 11 14:51:58 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:51:58 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics Message-ID: On Tue, 11 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that > a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. > If you mean actually remove the eprom lid, probably there is a safe way, but only in a clean room. Also the connections are so small you have no chance of actually soldering anything to it with any equipment you have. You can get a device to piggy back on to the chip and have the ribbon cable attach to that. You you could put something between the eprom and the socket to tap off the pins (if you have room). Roger From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 11 15:19:39 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:19:39 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Greg Hermann wrote: > >> > >> Back to FI....Am about to rebuild a VACUUM 750 Holley, any tips? > >> > >> LATER! > >> > >> Todd....!! > > > >Dig a deep hole, insert the Holley, re install dirt. > >Is that deep enough? > >Shannen > > But--I LIKE 3310's!! > > Greg Gol durn leak prone, fragile, empty tank inducing things. They're not my favorite metered leak. If you could recover the time you've spent overhauling and tuning Holleys, how much would you have? Shannen From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Tue May 11 15:29:35 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:29:35 -0400 Subject: Rpm Independence. Message-ID: Once upon a time there was something known as a binary scale. Lets see 1 bit = 0 or 1, two bits 0, 1,2,3 and so on until we have 8,9, or 10 or whatever bits. Now if I were doing this, the input would come from MAF and whatever and a binary number would be generated. This would then be the index into a table where the output would be the pulse width. BUT, not being enamored with the swiss army knife approach where one tool fits all, I would not use a single injector per cylinder or whatever. If the upper bit was connected to a solenoid valve that simple opened a calibrated jet that was 50% of the flow, I have just doubled the dynamic range of the "injector" without getting crazy. Now if you were binary enlightened, you might use a number of these jets, driven off output bits of your table such that except for a very small amount of variable fuel to do final trimming, everything is on fixed jets. Of course there would be no advantage to run these fixed jets say at 100 psi off a bosch pump would there? And no advantage to staging them so that the higher the flow, the further up the manifold runner they are as to allow maximum cooling of the charge. And no advantage to these jets being smaller than your little finger. And if this was a throttle body, totally eliminating the pulse width modulated injector itself by using a lambda valve as a high speed solenoid to turn on or off the finest jets. Calculating the flow is simple math since the orifice is fixed and the pressure is fixed. Also can vary the number of jets in each step. 8 "jets" generate 256 steps - probably far finer than a real engine needs, but not near enough to satisfy the anally retentive who believe that precision to 10 decimal points is required to run an engine. But silly me remembers that the basic advantage of pulsed injectors is to improve the idle to ~2500 rpm emissions. And CIS type thinking on the Bosch System used in some models by Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc was really crappy at idle, had no power, was balky and all screwed up, couldn't accelerate or run smooth - *** NOT***. And since the whole damn thing is fixed jets driven off a table - either on or off, someone who is not chemically challenged might just arrange for some of these jets to be connected to fuels other than gasoline - say methanal with a taste of nitromethane - or staged with supplementary gaseous induction like NOS. But that's not going to happen to anyone who loves the swiss army knife approach. Twist your sister and think about it. From goflo at pacbell.net Tue May 11 16:03:26 1999 From: goflo at pacbell.net (goflo at pacbell.net) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:03:26 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics Message-ID: If I understand what you want to do, look at "DIP component headers". Or use a "machined pin" DIP socket, cheaper, and solder the wires into the pin receivers. Just don't melt the socket doing it. :) If you've got a current Mouser catalog see pages 162-172. If not 800-346-6873 Jack Bruce Plecan wrote: > > How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that > a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. > > After a 3 month wait, I got a Radio Shack, PC/laptop 2 Oscilloscope probe > (They had run out at the master distribution center). > For the EEs probably it has little to offer but, least for me, I got to see > what the ALDL looks like.. > One big feature is that you can pick what colors contrast best for you. > So us ol timers can see what going on. > On a side note, is there enough interest for me to put together some > notes on an ecm bench?. I got some digitial photos, to go along with it, > just don't want to clutter the DIY stuff if not many are interested. > Bruce From eh351494 at oak.cats.ohiou.edu Tue May 11 16:19:42 1999 From: eh351494 at oak.cats.ohiou.edu (Ezekiel Holliday) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:19:42 -0400 Subject: Eprom Programer Message-ID: I'm currently working on designing an eprom programer so that I can make custom proms for my future fuel injection project. It currently will suppor 2732, 2764, 27C64, 27C256, 27C512 and a few more standard eproms. Does anyone have any suggestion for devices that it should support. Also does anyone have the sepcs for programing a 2532. I'll post the design on the web when I get done with it. I hope to keep the cost of building the device to below $50. Zeke Holliday From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Tue May 11 16:56:04 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:56:04 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics Message-ID: Digikey has ribbon cables with DIP sockets at one or both ends, from AMP. Have a look in their catalog, near the beginning of section "A" where the ribbon cables are. No assembly required. --steve goflo at pacbell.net wrote: > > If I understand what you want to do, look at "DIP component headers". > Or use a "machined pin" DIP socket, cheaper, and solder the wires > into the pin receivers. Just don't melt the socket doing it. :) > > If you've got a current Mouser catalog see pages 162-172. > If not 800-346-6873 > > Jack > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that > > a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. > > > > After a 3 month wait, I got a Radio Shack, PC/laptop 2 Oscilloscope probe > > (They had run out at the master distribution center). > > For the EEs probably it has little to offer but, least for me, I got to see > > what the ALDL looks like.. > > One big feature is that you can pick what colors contrast best for you. > > So us ol timers can see what going on. > > On a side note, is there enough interest for me to put together some > > notes on an ecm bench?. I got some digitial photos, to go along with it, > > just don't want to clutter the DIY stuff if not many are interested. > > Bruce -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 11 17:19:26 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:19:26 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: Hello Howard, your theory is TOTALLY GREAT and acceptable, and a system has alread ybeen created, produced, and marketed, and it's gone over wiht a pretty good fine tooth comb within on eof the laterChecvy Hi po mags dealing with all of the diff types, makes, and brands of FI for just about any type engine! Will get the name of the mag, I know you already know about the mag, just maybe not about the article(s) within this specific issue? But the basic function of the type system I believe you are referring to is based upon the use of formulas instead of tables... I think you are right in line witht the way this REALLY advanced system is designed to function! Will post details later, (mag's at home)! LATER! Todd....!! Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > I have given more than a little thought to the possibility of an EFI > system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. The idea > being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the timing is > irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or more. > Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The injectors > would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase pulse > rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased thereafter. > Such a system could be operated based on mathematical formulae rather > than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT could modify > the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give > accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air density > should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle minor > dicrepancies. > A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes from the > desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because of RPM > dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only in the > context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only directly > related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, Throttle > Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF tells us > how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system must then > work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for that rate to > achieve the desired delivery per unit time. > If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse width per > pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many pulses > per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. At some > point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that point > pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be modified above > that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you are > changing the simple the program becomes. > Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but then I'm a > simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of thought. > H.W. From ferrariformulauno at yahoo.com Tue May 11 18:07:02 1999 From: ferrariformulauno at yahoo.com (Andre Grandi) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:07:02 -0400 Subject: Eprom Programer Message-ID: How about support for the AMD29F200AB prom? andre --- Ezekiel Holliday wrote: > I'm currently working on designing an eprom programer so that I can make > custom proms for my future fuel injection project. It currently will > suppor 2732, 2764, 27C64, 27C256, 27C512 and a few more standard eproms. > Does anyone have any suggestion for devices that it should support. Also > does anyone have the sepcs for programing a 2532. I'll post the design on > the web when I get done with it. I hope to keep the cost of building the > device to below $50. > > Zeke Holliday > > > > === Andre _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From Teller.John at orbital.com Tue May 11 18:57:46 1999 From: Teller.John at orbital.com (Teller.John at orbital.com) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:57:46 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Shannen wrote: >> But--I LIKE 3310's!! >> >> Greg > >Gol durn leak prone, fragile, empty tank inducing things. They're not >my favorite metered leak. >If you could recover the time you've spent overhauling and tuning >Holleys, how much would you have? >Shannen About the same time you may have spent overhauling Quadrajets - talk about empty tank inducing things! --- John T. From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 11 19:00:20 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:00:20 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics Message-ID: I just mailed the photos off to Steve, and have about half the text written. So in the next few days, it should be at the FTP at 332. There no staged photos meaning that is just the way it is. Neighbor showed up, with camera, and took photos, and that was that. The ruler was supposed to be a reference, but well, that's the way it wound up. I was switching from one ecm to the other, and even the diacom LT was unplugged. Cheers Bruce From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 11 19:37:40 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:37:40 -0400 Subject: Rpm Independence. Message-ID: Robert, I believe you've opened a WHOLE nother can o worms here bud... I like your thinkin! Keep it coming mang, I'm being enlightened, you're opennin my mind man, I appreciate your intellegence and thought provokin thoughts and insights and theorys!! I believe your view is only applicable towards the TBI not the sequential port injection, correct? Thanks again! LATER! Todd....!! ----------- Robert Harris wrote: > > Once upon a time there was something known as a binary scale. Lets see 1 bit > = 0 or 1, two bits 0, 1,2,3 and so on until we have 8,9, or 10 or whatever > bits. > > Now if I were doing this, the input would come from MAF and whatever and a > binary number would be generated. This would then be the index into a table > where the output would be the pulse width. > > BUT, not being enamored with the swiss army knife approach where one tool fits > all, I would not use a single injector per cylinder or whatever. > > If the upper bit was connected to a solenoid valve that simple opened a > calibrated jet that was 50% of the flow, I have just doubled the dynamic range > of the "injector" without getting crazy. > > Now if you were binary enlightened, you might use a number of these jets, > driven off output bits of your table such that except for a very small amount > of variable fuel to do final trimming, everything is on fixed jets. > > Of course there would be no advantage to run these fixed jets say at 100 psi > off a bosch pump would there? And no advantage to staging them so that the > higher the flow, the further up the manifold runner they are as to allow > maximum cooling of the charge. And no advantage to these jets being smaller > than your little finger. > > And if this was a throttle body, totally eliminating the pulse width modulated > injector itself by using a lambda valve as a high speed solenoid to turn on or > off the finest jets. > > Calculating the flow is simple math since the orifice is fixed and the > pressure is fixed. Also can vary the number of jets in each step. 8 "jets" > generate 256 steps - probably far finer than a real engine needs, but not near > enough to satisfy the anally retentive who believe that precision to 10 > decimal points is required to run an engine. > > But silly me remembers that the basic advantage of pulsed injectors is to > improve the idle to ~2500 rpm emissions. And CIS type thinking on the Bosch > System used in some models by Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc was really > crappy at idle, had no power, was balky and all screwed up, couldn't > accelerate or run smooth - *** NOT***. > > And since the whole damn thing is fixed jets driven off a table - either on or > off, someone who is not chemically challenged might just arrange for some of > these jets to be connected to fuels other than gasoline - say methanal with a > taste of nitromethane - or staged with supplementary gaseous induction like > NOS. > > But that's not going to happen to anyone who loves the swiss army knife > approach. Twist your sister and think about it. From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 11 19:37:42 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:37:42 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: I've never overhauled nor tuned any of my Holley's, that may be part of the prob... I just swap one to another til I get one that works the best at the time for the kinda driving/racing that I'm doin at the time! Holley's will always probably be in my life, jsut not as much in the future after I figure out and adapt an inexpensive FI system to my car(s)... Startin with the 70 Superbee's 440... Future plans incluse twin turbo's so I need big nuff injectors to handle almost 1,000 hp, am currently at about 400-450 hp so need at LEAST big nuff injectors for 500 hp minimum, how many lb injectors do I ned if I go sequential port injection and where can I find these type of forumlae so I don't have to beg you's guys for answers to these type of simple answers to these formulae.... I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess 30-40 lb injectors will get me runnin where I'm current;y at HP wise, I don't know which size throttle body to use either, how do ya convert mm's to CFM? with a naturally as well as Turbo'd engine... I get 6.1-6.2 mpg on the highway currently and MUST correct this situation ASAP or else get even poorer and maybe lose electriciy, water, phone etc.. due to the fuel bill overpowering my other bills, I've GOT to get to work SOME HOW ya know! I believe I CAN get over 20 mph with a mild 440 in a 3700 lb car! What do ya'll think? Thanks for any positive(real,useable) input! Sincerely!, Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Thanks! Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Greg Hermann wrote: > > > >> > > >> Back to FI....Am about to rebuild a VACUUM 750 Holley, any tips? > > >> > > >> LATER! > > >> > > >> Todd....!! > > > > > >Dig a deep hole, insert the Holley, re install dirt. > > >Is that deep enough? > > >Shannen > > > > But--I LIKE 3310's!! > > > > Greg > > Gol durn leak prone, fragile, empty tank inducing things. They're not > my favorite metered leak. > If you could recover the time you've spent overhauling and tuning > Holleys, how much would you have? > Shannen From clive at problem.tantech.com Tue May 11 20:39:09 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:39:09 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: > > I've never overhauled nor tuned any of my Holley's, that may be part of > the prob... I just swap one to another til I get one that works the best > at the time for the kinda driving/racing that I'm doin at the time! > > Holley's will always probably be in my life, jsut not as much in the > future after I figure out and adapt an inexpensive FI system to my > car(s)... > > Startin with the 70 Superbee's 440... > > Future plans incluse twin turbo's so I need big nuff injectors to handle > almost 1,000 hp, am currently at about 400-450 hp so need at LEAST big > nuff injectors for 500 hp minimum, how many lb injectors do I ned if I > go sequential port injection and where can I find these type of forumlae > so I don't have to beg you's guys for answers to these type of simple > answers to these formulae.... 30 lb will be enough you will need 65 to do 100 HP and should probably use 80lb to be safe in case you calculated wrong and end up with more power than you thought Clive From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 11 21:03:35 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:03:35 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Teller.John at orbital.com wrote: > > Shannen wrote: > > > >> But--I LIKE 3310's!! > >> > >> Greg > > > >Gol durn leak prone, fragile, empty tank inducing things. They're not > >my favorite metered leak. > >If you could recover the time you've spent overhauling and tuning > >Holleys, how much would you have? > >Shannen > > About the same time you may have spent overhauling Quadrajets - talk about empty > tank inducing things! > > --- John T. Yep, they've got a bad rep too. I happen to like them, but they definitely have faults. Lotsa Q-jets leak at the metering well plugs. Lots more get poorly tuned. I've seen some pretty strange stuff done to those carbs, by guys who didn't understand 'em. I'm sure they'd recommend the deep hole treatment to me for my RPD "junk". : ) Shannen From Fisystems at aol.com Tue May 11 21:39:48 1999 From: Fisystems at aol.com (Fisystems at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:39:48 -0400 Subject: Just out shopping for injectors Message-ID: Just out shopping for injectors ( GM port, 24-27lb) any ideas for a good supplier? Ken Murillo From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 11 21:48:10 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:48:10 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Todd....!! wrote: > > Future plans incluse twin turbo's so I need big nuff injectors to handle > almost 1,000 hp, am currently at about 400-450 hp so need at LEAST big > nuff injectors for 500 hp minimum, how many lb injectors do I ned if I > go sequential port injection and where can I find these type of forumlae > so I don't have to beg you's guys for answers to these type of simple > answers to these formulae.... http://sura1.jlab.org/~grippo/auto_f.html Shannen From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Tue May 11 21:52:03 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:52:03 -0400 Subject: Eprom Programer Message-ID: According to my notes, a 2532 is different to a 2732 as follows: 24pin 2532 2732 28pin -------------------------------- 18 A11 *CE (20) 20 *CE *OE/Vpp (22) 21 Vpp A11 (23) The 28pin column shows the pin numbers assuming a 28 pin socket is used and the 24 pin device (2532/2732) is placed so the GND pins share the same pin. According to an Hitachi HN462532 application note this is how you program one: 2532 mode selection *CE (20) Vpp (21) ------------------------------------------------- Read VIL 5V Standby VIH 5V Program VIH->VIL->VIH 25V Program Inhibit VIH 25V VIL and VIH are of course LOW and HI logic voltage levels. The SINGLE program pulse is nominally 50 mSec +/- 5 mSec. I have lots more info on programmers and have designed my own, using low cost 74LS series TTL logic, for connection to a parallel port. Note that the biggest problem will be writing software for all the different EPROMs. Perhaps someone knows of a "generic" EPROM programmer piece of software (with good source code) that already knows about different EPROMs? My software's "user interface" is still a "work in progress", but it does work for 2716s to 27512s. Another problem to solve is accurate timing of programming pulses. A simple solution is to use a 555 timer that the software can read (say set at 1 mSec and the software can count up to 50 for the 2532 described above, and still allow "intelligent algorithms" for the "bigger" EPROMs). This avoids having to "calibrate" the software for differing processor speeds, etc. If you're (or anyone else) is interested, I could convert my schematic from pencil/paper to something electronic. (please email me direct if you ARE interested mailto:peter at mail.techedge.com.au this will avoid unnecessary bandwidth in this discussion group). Ezekiel Holliday wrote: > does anyone have the sepcs for programing a 2532. -- Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au http://www.techedge.com.au/teinfo.htm Ph: +61 2 62515519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 From ron.boley at worldnet.att.net Tue May 11 23:44:10 1999 From: ron.boley at worldnet.att.net (Ron Boley) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:44:10 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics Message-ID: Hi Folks, The easiest way to get at the signals of an Eprom is to find one of those DIP-CLIPS. It looks like one of the old close-pins, hinged in the middle with a spring to keep it closed. They are (were?) popular because you could clip your Scope probe to them and watch what was going on. If you can find them, solder your cable to the end points (Quickly) and you have a quick connector. The only other thing you will need to do is clean the water proof coating off the Eprom pins. One other thing you should look out for. Don't run to long of a cable since the inductance and capacitance of the cable may affect the operation of the Eprom. Ron Bruce Plecan wrote: > How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that > a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. > > After a 3 month wait, I got a Radio Shack, PC/laptop 2 Oscilloscope probe > (They had run out at the master distribution center). > For the EEs probably it has little to offer but, least for me, I got to see > what the ALDL looks like.. > One big feature is that you can pick what colors contrast best for you. > So us ol timers can see what going on. > On a side note, is there enough interest for me to put together some > notes on an ecm bench?. I got some digitial photos, to go along with it, > just don't want to clutter the DIY stuff if not many are interested. > Bruce From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 11 23:50:03 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:50:03 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: If this is a typical drag setup with 4.56 gears and a Torqueflite no way you're gonna get 20 mpg. EFI will get you 10 to 15% economy compared to a well tuned carb. If you can get a carb setup to 15 mpg, then you can get 17 mpg with EFI. You will need overdrive and a cam that works at low rpm (1500). If you can't or won't tune a carb, how are you going to tune EFI? Gary Derian > > I get 6.1-6.2 mpg on the highway currently and MUST correct this > situation ASAP or else get even poorer and maybe lose electriciy, water, > phone etc.. due to the fuel bill overpowering my other bills, I've GOT > to get to work SOME HOW ya know! > > I believe I CAN get over 20 mph with a mild 440 in a 3700 lb car! > > What do ya'll think? > > Thanks for any positive(real,useable) input! > > Sincerely!, From james at brc.ubc.ca Tue May 11 23:50:58 1999 From: james at brc.ubc.ca (James Weiler) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:50:58 -0400 Subject: testing injectors Message-ID: Gang, I was flipping through my copy of 'Maximum Boost' and noticed he had a simple injector tester. He had the injector opened by a simple switch hooked up to a 9V battery and he said to measure flow for 1 minute. This would hold the injector open at 100% duty cycle. I know this is a bad situation but for purposes of testing is this going to damage the injector (I don't need to measure for the whole minute, I could use 15-30 seconds if that makes a difference). Will this work for peak and hold injectors? If these injectors need 4 amps to open then I'm going to need something like a car battery to open the injector. Is using a car battery a bad idea here? i.e 12V vs. 9V I have some professionally cleaned and flow tested injectors that I can use as a refrence and I'll use methanol or paint thinner as the solvent or hexane (I'm a biochemist so I can get anything) ya hexane sounds good as it's not too volatile, methanol would be cheaper and easier however. Need some thought here. I know someone posted a simple circuit to based on a 555 timer but I'd like to do this quick. However if this is the only non destructive method then I will build that guizmo. Any and all ideas welcome as usual. jw From wilman at hkabc.net Wed May 12 00:37:22 1999 From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:37:22 -0400 Subject: Eprom Programer Message-ID: ---------- > From: Ezekiel Holliday > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Eprom Programer > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 12:19 AM > > I'm currently working on designing an eprom programer so that I can make > custom proms for my future fuel injection project. It currently will > suppor 2732, 2764, 27C64, 27C256, 27C512 and a few more standard eproms. > Does anyone have any suggestion for devices that it should support. Also > does anyone have the sepcs for programing a 2532. I'll post the design on > the web when I get done with it. I hope to keep the cost of building the > device to below $50. > > Zeke Holliday It might be a good idea to include 28F010 and 27C1024. > > From wilman at hkabc.net Wed May 12 00:37:25 1999 From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:37:25 -0400 Subject: Honda Vtec ECU Message-ID: Hello, Is there anybody out there who can help me to reprogram the ECU's found on 1992 onwards Honda Civic EG6 1.6 Vtec. Codes are either P30-G00 or P30-000. Wilman From bshaw at connix.com Wed May 12 01:03:00 1999 From: bshaw at connix.com (Bill Shaw) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:03:00 -0400 Subject: L-jetronic mods Message-ID: Hi James, Bruce's suggestion of the 749/Sunbird chip is a good one. I'm considering this as the next step for my Spider, or maybe EFI332, or maybe build my own. Before you take on replacing your ECU however, you might want to look at http://www.students.tut.fi/%7ek124775/Injection.html. He's got some good info on modifying the L-Jet. ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Shaw '78 124 Spider (Will soon be) Fuel injected and stepping out over the line http://www.connix.com/~bshaw/fiat.html ---------------------------------------------------- > Hello. I'm new to the list (sort of), so forgive me this subject has been > covered before. > I installed a custom turbo system on my 1980 Fiat Spider. Building the > system was a task itself but getting the engine to resist detontation has > been an uphill battle. If detonation is as destructive as what everybody > describes, then my engine would have been toast months ago because my > engine has shown no ill effects. So far anyway. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 12 01:08:56 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:08:56 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: > you're gonna get 20 mpg. EFI will get you 10 to 15% economy compared to a > well tuned carb. Or triple if your carb sucks :) With modern day pickups approaching 20 MPG on the highway, my 5-6 MPG ratbag truck ain't cutting it, hence the push for EFI as well. Turbos for towing power, crappy mileage under load, and acceptable mileage for highway cruising. > (1500). If you can't or won't tune a carb, how are you going to tune EFI? Aaaah... that entirely depends on the system you choose. If you dump some cash for something simpler like the Edelbrock or Holley TBI setup, the bolt on, a few sensors are added, and both units come with fuel maps that are "reasonable" for various engines. A little tuning and you can get a vehicle on the road without being entirely tortured. For a more advanced TBI or even TPI, Haltach as well as Electromotive come to the rescue with a more complex system, but you can get great results with these. Both come with "configurations" for the Chevy BB (454), which you can "slap" in for the 440 Dodge, it should work well, its close enough. Its when you take a junkyard ECM (like the 7749) designed for a six cylinder engine and tune things up for a big twin-turbo V8 that your hair starts to flee your head. An electromotive Tec II system with junkyard sensors, throttlebody, wires and a bag of crimp spades/bullet connectors, you can get the vehicle up and running for approximately 1000-1200 if you buy just the unit, if I remember the pricing correctly. Been a year or so since I called them for pricing. The ignition is taken care of, since it has coil packs, so you can subtract the cost of a new distributor, regulator assembly (Its a Dodge thing), and all the crap associated with that. With the Tec II I'd chop off the insides of the dizzy and leave it in the block to spin the oil pump, rather than go dry sump and deal with that complex mess of hoses. Also, the Tec II supports 60 tooth wheels for the crank, and 120 tooth wheels for the cam, and there is nothing stopping someone from slapping one of those wheels on your dizzy head, and make the timing/engine position sensors more accessable. A friend of mine did this with his Chevy 350. Hope that helps. From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 12 01:09:09 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:09:09 -0400 Subject: testing injectors Message-ID: Well, they say injectors will overheat and die from being on without fuel running thru them. I've had some on for 45 mins straight, and the seem to operate fine. They still react to times a low as 1.6 msecs, so I don't see the problem. These were saturated in this test. Also, have run then on the bench at 55 MPH in my 92 camaro for hours, and no smoke, still respond to short on times. I've run a Cold primer circuit using a IRF 511 and a 12 ohm resistor for years, for a primer. This was TBI. There was a comment about the injector doing a piss, and dribble as it turns on and off, so that will screw up, any real max flow sampling. But just doing the short duty cycle would be no good for that, so if I was gettin really serious I think I'd do both a 20% duty cycle test, and a 100%. I've seen some notes on how erratic a large P+H is at less than 2 msec., so I'd watch that real close. When running those. Yes to using a battery, and a proper fuse. Well ventilated area, yada yada, do everything in a safe manner, since most anything can be made expolsive. I'd also, get real critical about timing, ie solid state switching, no "by Hand stopwatch stuff" Just my 02 Bashful > I know this is a > bad situation but for purposes of testing is this going to damage the > injector (I don't need to measure for the whole minute, I could use 15-30 > seconds if that makes a difference). > Will this work for peak and hold injectors? If these injectors need 4 > amps to open then I'm going to need something like a car battery to open > the injector. Is using a car battery a bad idea here? i.e 12V vs. 9V > I have some professionally cleaned and flow tested injectors that I can > use as a refrence and I'll use methanol or paint thinner as the solvent > or hexane (I'm a biochemist so I can get anything) ya hexane sounds good > as it's not too volatile, methanol would be cheaper and easier however. > Need some thought here. > I know someone posted a simple circuit to based on a 555 timer but I'd > like to do this quick. However if this is the only non destructive > method then I will build that guizmo. > Any and all ideas welcome as usual. jw From AL8001 at aol.com Wed May 12 01:51:52 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:51:52 -0400 Subject: Eprom Programer Message-ID: In a message dated 99-05-11 20:42:01 EDT, wilman at hkabc.net writes: >It might be a good idea to include 28F010 and 27C1024. > > I'd like to see the 28F102 ( 1 Meg) and 28F220 ( 4 Meg) as well. The 28F102 is programable by a Needhams EMP-10 or better, the 28F220 isn't programable by any Needhams product :+( These are the chips in the 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5 L V6 ECM and TCM that I'm using in a Porsche 914 engine swap. Harold From twsharpe at mtco.com Wed May 12 02:52:23 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:52:23 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: Did anyone bother to tune the Holley??? Sharpe.. Has anyone seen a comparison with the Barry Grant VFI??? I think that one would be easy to dial in and still a winner... Squash wrote: > The article is in the may 1999 issue of "Car Craft" > magazine. You should buy it! > > 502EFI ended up with 591HP and 532lb/ft > 502 with 850 holley on the same intake got 542HP and > 524 lb/ft > > And that is across the RPM range, not just at the > peak! Even with mismatched intake ports (peanut, > rectangle, oval) the EFI made more HP and torque. > > But compared to the holley 850 and a dual-plane > intake, they only managed to get less than 10 hp and > 10 lb/ft of torque. > > So don't think that any EFI will blow away a carb > under all circumstances! > > Andy > > --- Walter Sherwin wrote: > > >I just read an article where a 502GM engine had a > > >single-plane intake with a 4bbl 1000cfm TB on it > > and > > >injectors mounted in the ports. They installed and > > >tweaked a 750cfm (or was it 850cfm?) holley carb on > > >that intake and compared it to the EFI. The EFI > > won > > >in HP and torque, not to mention starting and all > > the > > >other givens. > > > > > > > > > > Neat! Where was this published? > > > > Walt. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From twsharpe at mtco.com Wed May 12 03:18:13 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:18:13 -0400 Subject: Rpm Independence. Message-ID: Let's see... If we add a flapper to the inlet stream to measure airflow and a needle in the jet(s) hooked to the flapper to control mixture and raised the fuel pressure/volume with rpm, we could adjust everything with a screwdriver....i think cheby didit in '63... Sharpe PS Good ideas, I'm building a prototype PIC fuel pump controller... What would you like the fuel pressure to be????? How would you like to control it?? Robert Harris wrote: > Once upon a time there was something known as a binary scale. Lets see 1 bit > = 0 or 1, two bits 0, 1,2,3 and so on until we have 8,9, or 10 or whatever > bits. > > Now if I were doing this, the input would come from MAF and whatever and a > binary number would be generated. This would then be the index into a table > where the output would be the pulse width. > > BUT, not being enamored with the swiss army knife approach where one tool fits > all, I would not use a single injector per cylinder or whatever. > > If the upper bit was connected to a solenoid valve that simple opened a > calibrated jet that was 50% of the flow, I have just doubled the dynamic range > of the "injector" without getting crazy. > > Now if you were binary enlightened, you might use a number of these jets, > driven off output bits of your table such that except for a very small amount > of variable fuel to do final trimming, everything is on fixed jets. > > Of course there would be no advantage to run these fixed jets say at 100 psi > off a bosch pump would there? And no advantage to staging them so that the > higher the flow, the further up the manifold runner they are as to allow > maximum cooling of the charge. And no advantage to these jets being smaller > than your little finger. > > And if this was a throttle body, totally eliminating the pulse width modulated > injector itself by using a lambda valve as a high speed solenoid to turn on or > off the finest jets. > > Calculating the flow is simple math since the orifice is fixed and the > pressure is fixed. Also can vary the number of jets in each step. 8 "jets" > generate 256 steps - probably far finer than a real engine needs, but not near > enough to satisfy the anally retentive who believe that precision to 10 > decimal points is required to run an engine. > > But silly me remembers that the basic advantage of pulsed injectors is to > improve the idle to ~2500 rpm emissions. And CIS type thinking on the Bosch > System used in some models by Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc was really > crappy at idle, had no power, was balky and all screwed up, couldn't > accelerate or run smooth - *** NOT***. > > And since the whole damn thing is fixed jets driven off a table - either on or > off, someone who is not chemically challenged might just arrange for some of > these jets to be connected to fuels other than gasoline - say methanal with a > taste of nitromethane - or staged with supplementary gaseous induction like > NOS. > > But that's not going to happen to anyone who loves the swiss army knife > approach. Twist your sister and think about it. From twsharpe at mtco.com Wed May 12 03:30:43 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:30:43 -0400 Subject: testing injectors Message-ID: Pick up the EFI driver board and hook it up. Just use any kind of switch to turn it on/off.. Sharpe James Weiler wrote: > Gang, I was flipping through my copy of 'Maximum Boost' and noticed he > had a simple injector tester. He had the injector opened by a simple > switch hooked up to a 9V battery and he said to measure flow for 1 minute. > This would hold the injector open at 100% duty cycle. I know this is a > bad situation but for purposes of testing is this going to damage the > injector (I don't need to measure for the whole minute, I could use 15-30 > seconds if that makes a difference). > > Will this work for peak and hold injectors? If these injectors need 4 > amps to open then I'm going to need something like a car battery to open > the injector. Is using a car battery a bad idea here? i.e 12V vs. 9V > > I have some professionally cleaned and flow tested injectors that I can > use as a refrence and I'll use methanol or paint thinner as the solvent > or hexane (I'm a biochemist so I can get anything) ya hexane sounds good > as it's not too volatile, methanol would be cheaper and easier however. > Need some thought here. > > I know someone posted a simple circuit to based on a 555 timer but I'd > like to do this quick. However if this is the only non destructive > method then I will build that guizmo. > > Any and all ideas welcome as usual. > jw From sk8er at netmost.com Wed May 12 03:39:15 1999 From: sk8er at netmost.com (EK) Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:39:15 -0400 Subject: testing injectors Message-ID: I personally have not tried to test injectors or know what the requirements are for your specific injectors, but a injector needing 4 amps to drive it would be a very low impedance injector 12/4=3A, and sustaining that much power (3A * 12V=36W) in an injector without sufficient cooling may cook it in a minute. One trick I have used in pneumatic valves ( which may be what peak and hold injectors use - I am new to the details of injector driving) is to use a large capacitor charged above the normal operating voltage to deliver a burst of power to pull the value off the seat initially, and then reducing the steady state voltage / current so heat and power are minimized. The steady state current thru the injector required to keep it open may vary with pressure and temperature, so you may have to play with that if you are running high or normal operating pressures. You may be able to use a 9V battery or other small battery in some type of setup like this. If you can find the simple circuit that does something similar, I would sure use that instead on the car battery option. Eric -----Original Message----- From: James Weiler To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 9:52 PM Subject: testing injectors >Gang, I was flipping through my copy of 'Maximum Boost' and noticed he >had a simple injector tester. He had the injector opened by a simple >switch hooked up to a 9V battery and he said to measure flow for 1 minute. >This would hold the injector open at 100% duty cycle. I know this is a >bad situation but for purposes of testing is this going to damage the >injector (I don't need to measure for the whole minute, I could use 15-30 >seconds if that makes a difference). > >Will this work for peak and hold injectors? If these injectors need 4 >amps to open then I'm going to need something like a car battery to open >the injector. Is using a car battery a bad idea here? i.e 12V vs. 9V > >I have some professionally cleaned and flow tested injectors that I can >use as a refrence and I'll use methanol or paint thinner as the solvent >or hexane (I'm a biochemist so I can get anything) ya hexane sounds good >as it's not too volatile, methanol would be cheaper and easier however. >Need some thought here. > >I know someone posted a simple circuit to based on a 555 timer but I'd >like to do this quick. However if this is the only non destructive >method then I will build that guizmo. > >Any and all ideas welcome as usual. > jw > From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Wed May 12 04:02:32 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:02:32 -0400 Subject: testing injectors Message-ID: -> Well, they say injectors will overheat and die from being on without -> fuel running thru them. I've had some on for 45 mins straight, and -> the seem to operate fine. Same here. They get toasty warm, but not too hot to hold - no more than 160F, likely. Consider underhood temp on hot shutdown can go as high as 250F, at least according to the mechanical temp guage in my truck. From owly at mcn.net Wed May 12 04:09:26 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:09:26 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: Todd: I would be very interested in reading the article you mentioned. Please let me know if you find it. My basic thought here is to emulate the working of the Bosch mechanical CIS fuel injection system electronically which would allow it to be modulated by feedback, but still yield a system simple enough to be operated by a very low cost controller. Injector timing is irrelevant, therefore injector firing rate is also irrelevant within the range above engine RPM. Perhaps mathematical formulae are not adequate to control fuel delivery.... maybe lookup tables are necessary. The Bosch mechanical system used a shaped MAF to keep fuel flow which was mechanically controlled in line with the motion of the MAF actuator arm. This put the mathematical calculation into the profile of the MAF throat which was in effect a computer (a mechanical computer). It took far more intelligence in my opinion to design this one part than to program look up tables which can be done by trial and error, or by a simple feedback system. I believe I could sit here and flow chart out and write a program to generate the lookup tables based on feedback, and minimal programmer input. I'm just looking at different possible approaches to the problem of managing fuel delivery via computer. H.W. -----Original Message----- From: Todd....!! To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 1:15 PM Subject: Re: RPM independence >Hello Howard, > >your theory is TOTALLY GREAT and acceptable, and a system has alread >ybeen created, produced, and marketed, and it's gone over wiht a pretty >good fine tooth comb within on eof the laterChecvy Hi po mags dealing >with all of the diff types, makes, and brands of FI for just about any >type engine! > >Will get the name of the mag, I know you already know about the mag, >just maybe not about the article(s) within this specific issue? > >But the basic function of the type system I believe you are referring to >is based upon the use of formulas instead of tables... I think you are >right in line witht the way this REALLY advanced system is designed to >function! > >Will post details later, (mag's at home)! > >LATER! > >Todd....!! > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: >> >> I have given more than a little thought to the possibility of an EFI >> system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. The idea >> being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the timing is >> irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or more. >> Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The injectors >> would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase pulse >> rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased thereafter. >> Such a system could be operated based on mathematical formulae rather >> than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT could modify >> the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give >> accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air density >> should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle minor >> dicrepancies. >> A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes from the >> desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because of RPM >> dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only in the >> context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only directly >> related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, Throttle >> Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF tells us >> how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system must then >> work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for that rate to >> achieve the desired delivery per unit time. >> If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse width per >> pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many pulses >> per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. At some >> point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that point >> pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be modified above >> that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you are >> changing the simple the program becomes. >> Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but then I'm a >> simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of thought. >> H.W. > > > From efi at cardozo.org Wed May 12 04:27:37 1999 From: efi at cardozo.org (Al Lipper) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:27:37 -0400 Subject: New EFI plans (ECU7) are online! Message-ID: The latest version of the schematics and PC board loayout are online at http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/ I'm intersted in hering what people think. Also, I'm hoping do get some of the blank PC boards made up - if anyone has a cheap source for a few of these, that would be great. Al efi at cardozo.org From efi at cardozo.org Wed May 12 04:27:41 1999 From: efi at cardozo.org (Al Lipper) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 00:27:41 -0400 Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Message-ID: Marc, You are exactly right. The first step is to convert EFI02.ASM to work with the 80C552. If you have time to work on this, that would really be great. Thanks! Al At 03:29 PM 5/9/99 +0200, you wrote: >Hi Al, > >I looked through the schematics last week. They look quite the same as my >controller-board, except for a few things. Adress-decoding works with a gal >on my system. I do not have a i2c interface. All i/o pins of the >microcontroller are also on a large connector, so I can make daugtherboards >with injection drivers and signal conditioners. I also read parts of the >software and they are documented very well indeed. > >I also use the asm51 assembler, with the 80C552 predefined symbols >(extension file). Are there a lot of things changed to the latest >hardware-schematic, compared to the one on the web ?. I hope to be able to >give you some more information about the monitor program in a week, but I am >not sure I will have it in time. > >In the meantime, is there anything I can do, like porting software to the >80c552 ? > >One last question, will you be using the basic compiler for ECU7 also ? >Sorry for the bad english. > >Take care, > >Marc >marc at vdvossen.nl > > > From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com Wed May 12 05:22:22 1999 From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:22:22 -0400 Subject: Honda Vtec ECU Message-ID: Hi, I saw a spot on the board for a 27256 to be mounted and I heard from someone that there needs to be a jumper placed on the board so it doesn't look at the factory one but thats as far as I went.....hth's -Carl Summers In a message dated 99-05-11 20:41:44 EDT, you write: << Subj: Honda Vtec ECU Date: 99-05-11 20:41:44 EDT From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN) Sender: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello, Is there anybody out there who can help me to reprogram the ECU's found on 1992 onwards Honda Civic EG6 1.6 Vtec. Codes are either P30-G00 or P30-000. Wilman ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-P >> From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Wed May 12 05:40:06 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 01:40:06 -0400 Subject: Table Driven Injectors. Message-ID: The use of separate injectors and tables to drive them can be extended to any situation. The scenario. You have 28 pound injectors that would nicely cover from idle to xxx. Going up in pressure, or poundage begins to reduce your controllability at the low end. Yet you need to wind up with 40 pounds of flow. Any number of solutions for single injectors - none of them really optimum. For a fixed jet injector at a fixed fuel pressure, it is possible to calculate the orifices to flow x amount of fuel. Say we pick it to be 15 pounds. 15 + 28 gives us 43. Now, this does not have to be a single nozzle. It could just as well be 8 nozzles sized appropriately to spray a mist of fuel way up the runner when turned on. Not going to happen at low throttle anyway so the air flow will be strong and CIS will work just fine. So what we have is a simple fixed jet(s) turned on at a certain point by a simple solenoid on/off. Now if we use conventional discrete logic or formulae, we can get snarly right fast. But, stealing freely from earlier days when computational time meant something, we can use a "decision table" or "look up". Not a schematic - just a verbalization of a concept. Implementation is left to the student as an exercise. Use a rom as a translator. Take a sixteen bit address rom, with 8 bits out. Seven of the eight bits are fed as an input to a D/A and the pulse width is the output. The eighth bit simply turns the fixed jet solenoid on or off. On the input side we calculate % power as a binary number based on MAF or whatever. That's n bits. The address. We can then calculate initially the contents of the table so that we can get the proper fuel flow using both the jet(s) and the injectors. With no computational overhead - simply read the address and apply the result. There is no reason to limit the conversion to a simple Maf to pulse width / jet on/off. Increasing the number of bits in the output allows us to control additional devices - such as fixed stream water/alcohol on/off or three step water or "fill in the blank" Increasing the number of bits in the address allows us to "OR" in address bits that represent additional considerations such as high gear, cold engine etc. The total of the discrete bits and converted analog input give you the total address or size of the table. The ROM can be replaced with a flash rom so that you could run - collect data and change the entire data table and algorithms on the fly. Several of us discussed this idea a couple of years ago. The use of table controlled small fixed jets allow you to place them where optimum for whatever you are trying to accomplish. For example you may want to place a couple in the plenum following the intercooler on a positive pressure engine. Then, with the discrete logic - turn them on at a certain boost pressure when flow exceeds xxx. The more fixed jets that the ROM controls, the smaller the effective range of the variable jets has to be. Unusual thinking might be having a somewhat larger output word and controlling two fuels - such as vapor propane and gasoline or for Dave, a third - cruise-o-crap. With a few fixed orifices on two of the three, the ROM could be set up to blend nicely the various fuels without complex logic and still be close to correct. A last example. The use of liquid propane is a nasty snarly problem. Not for me. Part of the input "address" is the tank pressure of the propane. Knowing the tank pressure, I "know" the flow thru a fixed orifice. If I place a fixed orifice nozzle in the intake port, I can turn on a fixed flow of liquid propane straight from the tank with just an on/off solenoid whenever the throttle demands it. Think NOS. Two nozzles at the port gives me four steps off/1/2/3. Part of the rom code. Self tuning - the hotter the day, the more I need the octane boost and charge cooling and oh lucky me, the higher the tank pressure. Just some silly thoughts to wake up to. From clive at problem.tantech.com Wed May 12 07:01:37 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 03:01:37 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: > > > > > Startin with the 70 Superbee's 440... > > > > Future plans incluse twin turbo's so I need big nuff injectors to handle > > almost 1,000 hp, am currently at about 400-450 hp so need at LEAST big > > nuff injectors for 500 hp minimum, how many lb injectors do I ned if I > > go sequential port injection and where can I find these type of forumlae > > so I don't have to beg you's guys for answers to these type of simple > > answers to these formulae.... > > > 30 lb will be enough > you will need 65 to do 100 HP and should probably use 80lb to be safe in case > you calculated wrong and end up with more power than you thought that should have said 1000 Hp > > Clive From jseabolt at intermediatn.net Wed May 12 07:08:12 1999 From: jseabolt at intermediatn.net (James Seabolt) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 03:08:12 -0400 Subject: Fw: L-jetronic mods Message-ID: > Is the fuel pump up to the job? What is it's output vs. head presure > graph look like? As boost comes on and presure in the intake rises the > pump may not be able to supply enough fuel and you're running lean which > is causing your detonation problem. What are the reading from your O2 > sensor when under boost but not WOT? Use a digital multimeter for > this...you probably already know that however. When I tricked the coolant temperature sensor out, I was able to cause the engine to bog and belch plumes of black smoke out the exhaust at 7 pounds of boost. So I think I have plenty of potential for extra fuel. Unfortunatly this trick didn't work because it dumped too much fuel into the motor. Before my latest experiment (faking out the oxygen under boost), all lights lit up on my air/fuel meter however it only shows a 12:1 mixture (maxmimum). All light still glow under boost and I think now I am finally getting the 10:1 possibly 9:1 mixture I need. Also checked to make sure the throttle position switch was set correctly for WOT and it was. There is only three contacts in it. Idle, WOT and ground. It was near 90F today and still no pings. ---------------------------------------------------------- James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ ICQ # : 7344463 United States 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) ---------------------------------------------------------- From jseabolt at intermediatn.net Wed May 12 07:24:08 1999 From: jseabolt at intermediatn.net (James Seabolt) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 03:24:08 -0400 Subject: testing injectors Message-ID: James Weiler wrote: >Gang, I was flipping through my copy of 'Maximum Boost' Don't get me started on Corky Bell. His book was helpful during my turbo project but he is wrong about how much fuel enrichment a turbocharged engine is supposed to have. >and noticed he >had a simple injector tester. He had the injector opened by a simple >switch hooked up to a 9V battery and he said to measure flow for 1 minute. >This would hold the injector open at 100% duty cycle. I know this is a >bad situation but for purposes of testing is this going to damage the >injector (I don't need to measure for the whole minute, I could use 15-30 >seconds if that makes a difference). >Will this work for peak and hold injectors? If these injectors need 4 >amps to open then I'm going to need something like a car battery to open >the injector. Is using a car battery a bad idea here? i.e 12V vs. 9V This may be comparing apples to oranges, but a book I have on Bosch fuel injection (not sure if your system is Bosch or not) but it says 4 volts is what's used to fire the injectors. This might be L-jetronic only. >I have some professionally cleaned and flow tested injectors that I can >use as a refrence and I'll use methanol or paint thinner as the solvent >or hexane (I'm a biochemist so I can get anything) ya hexane sounds good >as it's not too volatile, methanol would be cheaper and easier however. >Need some thought here. > >I know someone posted a simple circuit to based on a 555 timer but I'd >like to do this quick. However if this is the only non destructive >method then I will build that guizmo. >Any and all ideas welcome as usual. ---------------------------------------------------------- James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ ICQ # : 7344463 United States 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) ---------------------------------------------------------- From wenning.motorsport at t-online.de Wed May 12 08:21:24 1999 From: wenning.motorsport at t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 04:21:24 -0400 Subject: Honda Vtec ECU Message-ID: WILMAN schrieb: > Hello, > > Is there anybody out there who can help me to reprogram the ECU's > found on 1992 onwards Honda Civic EG6 1.6 Vtec. Codes are either P30-G00 > or P30-000. > > > > Wilman That?s really not easy. You have to switch the processor from internal rom to external rom. Read the internal Rom from the processor and then fit a 27c256 eprom into the blank space on the pcb. Now it?s very easy to modify the ecu using an emulator. I have the information how to switch the processor from internal rom to an external one but I don?t know which processor is inside. Having a look at the ecu it shouldn?t be a problem to find the processor type and read the rom. I guess Chris Smith from Racelogic is still on this list (Hi Chris!) and I think he should know about that. If you?re just looking for a cost effective performance increase I?d suggest the Superchips conversion. They show an interesting 16 hp gain on the rolling road (using high octane fuel). Regards Alex Wenning From nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk Wed May 12 10:54:33 1999 From: nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk (Robertson, Nigel) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 06:54:33 -0400 Subject: A very English EFI system Message-ID: HI, This is my first post to this mailing list, although I have been reading all your comments for some time now. They have been both interesting and in a lot of cases useful. This may be a long shot but have any of you guys had any dealings with the Rover MEMS engine management system designed by Motorola. I would like to look more deeply at this system because I have two cars which use them. However, the automotive industry in the UK is a very Secret society and getting any information is virtually impossible. Any information from dealers is usually wrong because they do not have the technical expertise to answer questions. So, I am trying this list as a last resort. If anybody has opened one up I would be interested in hearing from you, or , if anyone is interesting in trying the US route of gaining info for me (Freedom of Information is a wonderful thing) I would be most grateful. Thanks In Advance Nigel _________________________________________________________________________ Nigel Robertson, BEng. CEng. MIEE. Senior Engineer Roke Manor Research Ltd Old Salisbury Lane Romsey SO51 0ZN Tel 01794 833524 Fax 01794 526943 email nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk From btisdale at cybersol.com Wed May 12 11:35:42 1999 From: btisdale at cybersol.com (Barry Tisdale) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 07:35:42 -0400 Subject: testing injectors Message-ID: Just did this w/ mine - used 12v, measured for roughly 10 secs @ 40psi; flowed around 17 grams of gasoline in that time. 555 timer, pressurized propane can gas reservoir. Once the injector's open, peak & hole makes no difference for the purposes of test. Open = open. Nothing got hot or fried. Barry From AL8001 at aol.com Wed May 12 12:25:04 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:25:04 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: In a message dated 99-05-11 15:43:40 EDT, atc347 at c-com.net writes: >I get 6.1-6.2 mpg on the highway currently and MUST correct this >situation ASAP or else get even poorer and maybe lose electriciy, water, >phone etc.. due to the fuel bill overpowering my other bills, I've GOT >to get to work SOME HOW ya know! > >I believe I CAN get over 20 mph with a mild 440 in a 3700 lb car! > >What do ya'll think? > >Thanks for any positive(real,useable) input! > >Sincerely!, > > First off, if you are still running a 8 3/4 rear end, get a high ratio center section ( 2.76 or so) and swap it for dailly driveing. The 8 3/4 is built like a 9" Ford, a center section swap can be done in ~ 1 hour or so. Next, find a 650 or smaller _vacuume_ secondary carb. Tune it with a two stage power valve and small jets. Use this for daliy street driveing. Third, run a distrubitor with vacuume advance on the street. Fourth, keep your foot out of it! You may not get 20 mpg, but you should at least double your current 6 mpg. Harold From flying.monkey at juno.com Wed May 12 12:47:10 1999 From: flying.monkey at juno.com (WAYNE JOHNSON) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 08:47:10 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics Message-ID: On Tue, 11 May 1999 10:38:31 -0400 "Bruce Plecan" writes: > On a side note, is there enough interest for me to put together >some >notes on an ecm bench?. I got some digitial photos, to go along with >it, >just don't want to clutter the DIY stuff if not many are interested. >Bruce By all means, please do. Wayne ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From realsquash at yahoo.com Wed May 12 13:17:57 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:17:57 -0400 Subject: CFM Continued... Message-ID: Yes, the holley was an 850 and it was tuned. They squeezed a bit more out of it. I have never seen anything about the VFI. Andy --- Tom Sharpe wrote: > Did anyone bother to tune the Holley??? Sharpe.. > > Has anyone seen a comparison with the Barry Grant > VFI??? I think that > one would be easy to dial in and still a winner... > > Squash wrote: > > > The article is in the may 1999 issue of "Car > Craft" > > magazine. You should buy it! > > > > 502EFI ended up with 591HP and 532lb/ft > > 502 with 850 holley on the same intake got 542HP > and > > 524 lb/ft > > > > And that is across the RPM range, not just at the > > peak! Even with mismatched intake ports (peanut, > > rectangle, oval) the EFI made more HP and torque. > > > > But compared to the holley 850 and a dual-plane > > intake, they only managed to get less than 10 hp > and > > 10 lb/ft of torque. > > > > So don't think that any EFI will blow away a carb > > under all circumstances! > > > > Andy > > > > --- Walter Sherwin wrote: > > > >I just read an article where a 502GM engine had > a > > > >single-plane intake with a 4bbl 1000cfm TB on > it > > > and > > > >injectors mounted in the ports. They installed > and > > > >tweaked a 750cfm (or was it 850cfm?) holley > carb on > > > >that intake and compared it to the EFI. The > EFI > > > won > > > >in HP and torque, not to mention starting and > all > > > the > > > >other givens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Neat! Where was this published? > > > > > > Walt. > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Free instant messaging and more at > http://messenger.yahoo.com > > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From bshaw at connix.com Wed May 12 14:52:45 1999 From: bshaw at connix.com (Bill Shaw) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:52:45 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: Hi, As I understand it, OBD-II is more difficult to hack then the pre-OBD-II systems. Has anyone on the list worked around the security and successfully hacked their OBD-II system? What problems did you have in doing so? Did you need any special equipment? I'd love to hear any OBD-II success stories. Thanks, Bill ------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Shaw '78 124 Spider (Will soon be) Fuel injected and stepping out over the line http://www.connix.com/~bshaw/fiat.html ------------------------------------------------------------ From shannen at grolen.com Wed May 12 15:04:16 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:04:16 -0400 Subject: Diesel + Ion Message-ID: http://www.delphiauto.com/pdf/sae/1999-01-0549.PDF From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 12 15:18:25 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:18:25 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: I believe that 100 hp is a type-o and should've been 1000, right? do you mean 8 80 lb injectors for an 8 cyl sequential port injection system? That seems a tad bit big for 1000 hp... What's the formula ya used for this calc? Thanks, Todd....!! Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > > > > > I've never overhauled nor tuned any of my Holley's, that may be part of > > the prob... I just swap one to another til I get one that works the best > > at the time for the kinda driving/racing that I'm doin at the time! > > > > Holley's will always probably be in my life, jsut not as much in the > > future after I figure out and adapt an inexpensive FI system to my > > car(s)... > > > > Startin with the 70 Superbee's 440... > > > > Future plans incluse twin turbo's so I need big nuff injectors to handle > > almost 1,000 hp, am currently at about 400-450 hp so need at LEAST big > > nuff injectors for 500 hp minimum, how many lb injectors do I ned if I > > go sequential port injection and where can I find these type of forumlae > > so I don't have to beg you's guys for answers to these type of simple > > answers to these formulae.... > > 30 lb will be enough > you will need 65 to do 100 HP and should probably use 80lb to be safe in case > you calculated wrong and end up with more power than you thought > > Clive From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 12 15:18:27 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:18:27 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Wow Shannen, Thanks for the link, you've been more help than ya know! This opens a whole new world for me and my spreadsheets and projects! I think this link is the second step to building my FI setup for my twin turbo 440 in the Superbee! Thanks again! Sincerely!, Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Todd....!! wrote: > > > > > Future plans incluse twin turbo's so I need big nuff injectors to handle > > almost 1,000 hp, am currently at about 400-450 hp so need at LEAST big > > nuff injectors for 500 hp minimum, how many lb injectors do I ned if I > > go sequential port injection and where can I find these type of forumlae > > so I don't have to beg you's guys for answers to these type of simple > > answers to these formulae.... > http://sura1.jlab.org/~grippo/auto_f.html > Shannen From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 12 15:18:30 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:18:30 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Thanks for that input Gary!, Good to know the potential/average gains BEFORE going into a mod project, ya know? I only have 4.10's with 295/50 15's on the back... I've gotten up to 16 mpg with a really leaned out 800 spreadbore double pumper on the highway at 50 mph the whole way from Bryan/College Station, tx to Houston and to Waco and places, these are about 100-120 mile trips... I've since found out that that 800 holley was way too lean and may cause damage to my new 440 short block and have since parked the carb in the garage while tryin out a bunch of other carbs, from a single 600 vac to a 750 dbl pmpr with the secondaries disconnected, to a vacuum 750 to a race 750 dbl pmpr with teh power valves blocked off!! Worse case and latest average was 'tween 6.1 and 6.5 mpg using 93 octane Super unleaded... whilst driving on Houston Freeways at tween 50 and 60 mph... As for tuning, I'm not one to gripe about gettin down and dirty when workin on a vehicle, matter a fact I was just diggin into my 83 5.0 t-bird just last night, it has a crank triggered ignition, but shouldn't according to all the books, and the TBI went baa by on me so I swapped IT out for (Ya'll may wanna smack me for this) an alum intake and Holley 600 vac!! However, NOW the timing is REALLY retarded due to the computer not knowin what to do with the timing and all I EVEN went to the juink yard this past Sunday and picked up a (Ya'll are probably gonna wanna smack me again for this) picked up a single point distributor so I could have some sorta sontrol over the timing! Well, did ya'll know that all s.b. 302 Fords are NOT created equally? The single point distributor out of an old EARLY 70's LTD behemoth didin't fit into the 83 t-birds 5.0 distibutor hole! The first large diamter area of the single point distributor with an o-ring on it is too big in diameter for the hole and will not fit unless I turn the diameter down a bit... Back to the crank trigger's real prob.. Ya see the crank triggered ignition systems pickup coil is stuck in a holder that is cast into the block and is NOT adjustable! I was going to rig my Mopar magnetic star and pickup into the original Ford gutless distributor, even got the spark to work using Fords computer with the Mopar electronic distributor wired to it... I've droped that idea and will take the points diestibutor back to the junk yard and try and swap it out for a newer electronic distributor, one that fits this 'newer' type of block this time!! OR, do ya'll know how to adjust the timing on a Ford's 5.0 TBI injection computer? There are probably NO good signals being fed to the Ford computer currently, and I wanna keep this simple.... This is all that's wrong with this t-bird and would like to get it runnin soon, I bought it REALLY cheap, it had collapsed lifters, I replaced em and it ran SUPER til the TBI went ba by on me... It has REALLY GREAT a/c, this is the reason I bought the thing! Thanks for any help! Sincerely! Todd....!! Gary Derian wrote: > > If this is a typical drag setup with 4.56 gears and a Torqueflite no way > you're gonna get 20 mpg. EFI will get you 10 to 15% economy compared to a > well tuned carb. If you can get a carb setup to 15 mpg, then you can get 17 > mpg with EFI. You will need overdrive and a cam that works at low rpm > (1500). If you can't or won't tune a carb, how are you going to tune EFI? > > Gary Derian > > > > > I get 6.1-6.2 mpg on the highway currently and MUST correct this > > situation ASAP or else get even poorer and maybe lose electriciy, water, > > phone etc.. due to the fuel bill overpowering my other bills, I've GOT > > to get to work SOME HOW ya know! > > > > I believe I CAN get over 20 mph with a mild 440 in a 3700 lb car! > > > > What do ya'll think? > > > > Thanks for any positive(real,useable) input! > > > > Sincerely!, From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 12 15:18:36 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:18:36 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: WOW Fred, Thanks for that! Would LUV to get rid of the ugly distributor in the front of the engine! The ignition wires protruding from the front tend to make the engine look messy... Where would ya'll recommend mounting the big cmoputer and coil packs on a big car like my 70 Coronet Superbee(Looks kinda like a Dukes a Hazard 69 Charger) Would it go in or around the glove box? Or under the hood somewhere cool? Just wonderin... Fred, your advice sounds like an affordable alternative to plain ol stocker injection... which would be tough to make handle my power demands...even without the twin turbo's! Hey, have you eve thought of creating a package deal for your Mopar? I bet you could sell it like hot cakes, I know I'd want one, depending on the price, which I KNOW copuld be VERY decent! LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > you're gonna get 20 mpg. EFI will get you 10 to 15% economy compared to a > > well tuned carb. > > Or triple if your carb sucks :) With modern day pickups approaching 20 > MPG on the highway, my 5-6 MPG ratbag truck ain't cutting it, hence the > push for EFI as well. Turbos for towing power, crappy mileage under > load, and acceptable mileage for highway cruising. > > > (1500). If you can't or won't tune a carb, how are you going to tune EFI? > > Aaaah... that entirely depends on the system you choose. If you dump > some cash for something simpler like the Edelbrock or Holley TBI setup, > the bolt on, a few sensors are added, and both units come with fuel maps > that are "reasonable" for various engines. A little tuning and you can > get a vehicle on the road without being entirely tortured. > > For a more advanced TBI or even TPI, Haltach as well as Electromotive > come to the rescue with a more complex system, but you can get great > results with these. Both come with "configurations" for the Chevy BB > (454), which you can "slap" in for the 440 Dodge, it should work well, > its close enough. > > Its when you take a junkyard ECM (like the 7749) designed for a six > cylinder engine and tune things up for a big twin-turbo V8 that your > hair starts to flee your head. > > An electromotive Tec II system with junkyard sensors, throttlebody, > wires and a bag of crimp spades/bullet connectors, you can get the > vehicle up and running for approximately 1000-1200 if you buy just the > unit, if I remember the pricing correctly. Been a year or so since I > called them for pricing. The ignition is taken care of, since it has > coil packs, so you can subtract the cost of a new distributor, regulator > assembly (Its a Dodge thing), and all the crap associated with that. > With the Tec II I'd chop off the insides of the dizzy and leave it in > the block to spin the oil pump, rather than go dry sump and deal with > that complex mess of hoses. Also, the Tec II supports 60 tooth wheels > for the crank, and 120 tooth wheels for the cam, and there is nothing > stopping someone from slapping one of those wheels on your dizzy head, > and make the timing/engine position sensors more accessable. A friend > of mine did this with his Chevy 350. > > Hope that helps. From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 12 15:18:41 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:18:41 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: Howard the article is in the May 99 issue of GM High-Tech Performance And the brand that uses Volumetric and other formulae instead of look-up tables is known as Electromotive.... Probably heard of em? HAHA!?? Keep me informed of your progress in this matter! LATER! Todd....!! Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > Todd: > I would be very interested in reading the article you mentioned. > Please let me know if you find it. > My basic thought here is to emulate the working of the Bosch > mechanical CIS fuel injection system electronically which would allow > it to be modulated by feedback, but still yield a system simple enough > to be operated by a very low cost controller. Injector timing is > irrelevant, therefore injector firing rate is also irrelevant within > the range above engine RPM. > Perhaps mathematical formulae are not adequate to control fuel > delivery.... maybe lookup tables are necessary. The Bosch mechanical > system used a shaped MAF to keep fuel flow which was mechanically > controlled in line with the motion of the MAF actuator arm. This put > the mathematical calculation into the profile of the MAF throat which > was in effect a computer (a mechanical computer). It took far more > intelligence in my opinion to design this one part than to program > look up tables which can be done by trial and error, or by a simple > feedback system. I believe I could sit here and flow chart out and > write a program to generate the lookup tables based on feedback, and > minimal programmer input. I'm just looking at different possible > approaches to the problem of managing fuel delivery via computer. > H.W. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Todd....!! > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 1:15 PM > Subject: Re: RPM independence > > >Hello Howard, > > > >your theory is TOTALLY GREAT and acceptable, and a system has alread > >ybeen created, produced, and marketed, and it's gone over wiht a > pretty > >good fine tooth comb within on eof the laterChecvy Hi po mags dealing > >with all of the diff types, makes, and brands of FI for just about > any > >type engine! > > > >Will get the name of the mag, I know you already know about the mag, > >just maybe not about the article(s) within this specific issue? > > > >But the basic function of the type system I believe you are referring > to > >is based upon the use of formulas instead of tables... I think you > are > >right in line witht the way this REALLY advanced system is designed > to > >function! > > > >Will post details later, (mag's at home)! > > > >LATER! > > > >Todd....!! > > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: > >> > >> I have given more than a little thought to the possibility of an > EFI > >> system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. The > idea > >> being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the timing is > >> irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or more. > >> Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The > injectors > >> would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase pulse > >> rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased > thereafter. > >> Such a system could be operated based on mathematical formulae > rather > >> than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT could > modify > >> the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give > >> accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air > density > >> should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle minor > >> dicrepancies. > >> A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes from > the > >> desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because of RPM > >> dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only in the > >> context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only directly > >> related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, Throttle > >> Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF tells us > >> how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system must > then > >> work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for that rate > to > >> achieve the desired delivery per unit time. > >> If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse width > per > >> pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many pulses > >> per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. At some > >> point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that point > >> pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be modified > above > >> that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you are > >> changing the simple the program becomes. > >> Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but then > I'm a > >> simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of thought. > >> H.W. > > > > > > From A70Duster at aol.com Wed May 12 15:40:20 1999 From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:40:20 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: So would big brother. I believe that OBD-II was created to keep us DIYers from "hacking" into the controller. Just watch your arse. See ya, Mike From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Wed May 12 15:51:10 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:51:10 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: -> was in effect a computer (a mechanical computer). It took far more -> intelligence in my opinion to design this one part than to program -> look up tables which can be done by trial and error, or by a simple -> feedback system. I believe I could sit here and flow chart out and "Program" lookup tables? "Feedback" system? When Bosch designed the L-Jet, computers were capital investments that weren't particularly portable, and there were no O2 sensors, though there was some primitive exhaust gas analysis stuff - not particularly portable either. "Gee, why did Paul Revere run around on his horse flapping some lanterns? Couldn't he have just emailed everyone?" From clive at problem.tantech.com Wed May 12 17:02:01 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:02:01 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: > > I believe that 100 hp is a type-o and should've been 1000, right? > > do you mean 8 80 lb injectors for an 8 cyl sequential port injection > system? That seems a tad bit big for 1000 hp... > > What's the formula ya used for this calc? avg .55lb fuel / hp under boost and .45 NA p the 80 is too large but leaves a little room for overboost etc. Clive From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Wed May 12 17:06:26 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:06:26 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: where do you get GM High-Tech Performance ? > -----Original Message----- > From: Todd....!! [SMTP:atc347 at c-com.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 9:53 AM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: RPM independence > > Howard the article is in the May 99 issue of GM High-Tech Performance > > And the brand that uses Volumetric and other formulae instead of look-up > tables is known as Electromotive.... Probably heard of em? HAHA!?? > > Keep me informed of your progress in this matter! > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > > Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > > > Todd: > > I would be very interested in reading the article you mentioned. > > Please let me know if you find it. > > My basic thought here is to emulate the working of the Bosch > > mechanical CIS fuel injection system electronically which would allow > > it to be modulated by feedback, but still yield a system simple enough > > to be operated by a very low cost controller. Injector timing is > > irrelevant, therefore injector firing rate is also irrelevant within > > the range above engine RPM. > > Perhaps mathematical formulae are not adequate to control fuel > > delivery.... maybe lookup tables are necessary. The Bosch mechanical > > system used a shaped MAF to keep fuel flow which was mechanically > > controlled in line with the motion of the MAF actuator arm. This put > > the mathematical calculation into the profile of the MAF throat which > > was in effect a computer (a mechanical computer). It took far more > > intelligence in my opinion to design this one part than to program > > look up tables which can be done by trial and error, or by a simple > > feedback system. I believe I could sit here and flow chart out and > > write a program to generate the lookup tables based on feedback, and > > minimal programmer input. I'm just looking at different possible > > approaches to the problem of managing fuel delivery via computer. > > H.W. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Todd....!! > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > > Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 1:15 PM > > Subject: Re: RPM independence > > > > >Hello Howard, > > > > > >your theory is TOTALLY GREAT and acceptable, and a system has alread > > >ybeen created, produced, and marketed, and it's gone over wiht a > > pretty > > >good fine tooth comb within on eof the laterChecvy Hi po mags dealing > > >with all of the diff types, makes, and brands of FI for just about > > any > > >type engine! > > > > > >Will get the name of the mag, I know you already know about the mag, > > >just maybe not about the article(s) within this specific issue? > > > > > >But the basic function of the type system I believe you are referring > > to > > >is based upon the use of formulas instead of tables... I think you > > are > > >right in line witht the way this REALLY advanced system is designed > > to > > >function! > > > > > >Will post details later, (mag's at home)! > > > > > >LATER! > > > > > >Todd....!! > > > > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > >> > > >> I have given more than a little thought to the possibility of an > > EFI > > >> system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. The > > idea > > >> being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the timing is > > >> irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or more. > > >> Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The > > injectors > > >> would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase pulse > > >> rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased > > thereafter. > > >> Such a system could be operated based on mathematical formulae > > rather > > >> than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT could > > modify > > >> the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give > > >> accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air > > density > > >> should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle minor > > >> dicrepancies. > > >> A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes from > > the > > >> desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because of RPM > > >> dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only in the > > >> context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only directly > > >> related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, Throttle > > >> Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF tells us > > >> how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system must > > then > > >> work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for that rate > > to > > >> achieve the desired delivery per unit time. > > >> If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse width > > per > > >> pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many pulses > > >> per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. At some > > >> point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that point > > >> pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be modified > > above > > >> that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you are > > >> changing the simple the program becomes. > > >> Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but then > > I'm a > > >> simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of thought. > > >> H.W. > > > > > > > > > > From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 12 17:34:18 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:34:18 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou tthe entire rearend!? Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the highway! He'll be takin his to the strip in a couple a weeks! I'll be followin him with mine... I got down to a puny 13.4 at 102 this past Friday night at the track... He'll be lucky if he breaks into the low 15's... ALSO, instead of swappin out gears I COULD just put some really tall truck like tires on there, the 295/50's seem kinda short, they don't even go up into the fenderwell at all, except maybe when bouncin over a bump or somethin... Will try gettin the 600 vac to idle better, maybe even run the ol Rochester off the 70 Chev truck again.. I used to run this carb, had GREAT idle characteristics, but couldn't break any lower than a 13.6 in the quarter with it, it's only a 625 or so cfm Rochester... Will also hook up the vac advance, if I can find a vacuum tube to hook it up to, they're all blocked off internally on the 750 dbl pmpr I'm currently runnin, so I'm not runnin it currently... The 600 or Rochester have plenty of vacuum tubes I can use for the vac advance... The Manual calls for 38 degrees total mechanical advance and lik 56 degrees advance with the vacuum hooked up... Does this sound right to ya'll? Seems a tad bit much to me! Thanks again! Really appreciate the help! LATER! Todd....!! AL8001 at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 99-05-11 15:43:40 EDT, atc347 at c-com.net writes: > > >I get 6.1-6.2 mpg on the highway currently and MUST correct this > >situation ASAP or else get even poorer and maybe lose electriciy, water, > >phone etc.. due to the fuel bill overpowering my other bills, I've GOT > >to get to work SOME HOW ya know! > > > >I believe I CAN get over 20 mph with a mild 440 in a 3700 lb car! > > > >What do ya'll think? > > > >Thanks for any positive(real,useable) input! > > > >Sincerely!, > > > > > > First off, if you are still running a 8 3/4 rear end, get a high ratio center > section ( 2.76 or so) and swap it for dailly driveing. The 8 3/4 is built > like a 9" Ford, a center section swap can be done in ~ 1 hour or so. > > Next, find a 650 or smaller _vacuume_ secondary carb. Tune it with a two > stage power valve and small jets. Use this for daliy street driveing. > > Third, run a distrubitor with vacuume advance on the street. > > Fourth, keep your foot out of it! > > You may not get 20 mpg, but you should at least double your current 6 mpg. > > Harold From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 12 17:37:10 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:37:10 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: > The ignition wires protruding from the front tend to make the engine > look messy... The electromotive system has the same coil pack setup as the modern day GM TPI engines, including the Grand National, most FWD 3800cc engines, Camaros & Vettes. > Where would ya'll recommend mounting the big cmoputer and coil packs on > a big car like my 70 Coronet Superbee(Looks kinda like a Dukes a Hazard > 69 Charger) The whole EFI is one piece (Electromotive), so it goes on top of your intake, or on your firewall. If you have a dual-carb hi-rise plenum, it fits under certain ones, but it will get fairly hot and shorten its life. Firewall is the best place. > Would it go in or around the glove box? Or under the hood somewhere > cool? The you'd have to cut holes in your firewall for the plug wires and wiring harness. > Fred, your advice sounds like an affordable alternative to plain ol > stocker injection... which would be tough to make handle my power > demands...even without the twin turbo's! Well, I'm going with the GM OEM stuff simply because its a fun project, and I can invest time for nearly free rather than buying something for $1000. have to save some cash for the fabrication work to make this all fit. > Hey, have you eve thought of creating a package deal for your Mopar? Naaah, I'll post pictures on the 'net and let everyone check it out for free, not in the business of making money on these things... I do them because I enjoy "fangling" and I get to learn stuff, which is the whole point. Otherwise, I'd just plop a mopar crate motor in with a big carb and be done with it. Certainly less effort than all this welding of injector bungs and such. -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From pjb at gt350.corp.sgi.com Wed May 12 17:57:07 1999 From: pjb at gt350.corp.sgi.com (Pete Boggini) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:57:07 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Todd....!! said: > >Well, did ya'll know that all s.b. 302 Fords are NOT created equally? > >The single point distributor out of an old EARLY 70's LTD behemoth >didin't fit into the 83 t-birds 5.0 distibutor hole! > >The first large diamter area of the single point distributor with an >o-ring on it is too big in diameter for the hole and will not fit unless >I turn the diameter down a bit... > Huh? Let's see, I've had a 289 that I stuck a later model duraspark in and it worked fine. More recently I had an '87 5.0 that I had the same duraspark distributor in and it worked fine. Its got the TFI distributor in it now since its EFI, but I don't remember there being differences like that. Was that possibly a 351W distributor? They are longer, or so I've been told, but they may be wider too. I will admit that I didn't try and stick the single point distributor in the 5.0, well, I tossed that distributor so I can't check now.:-). Of course, I was also told that since the TFI distributor, with its longer shaft, would require modifications to get it to fit with my Motorsport oil pump shaft, but it fit fine. I've since heard there are two shafts, and I must have the shorter one. But, it worked with the duraspark distributor. Boy do I feel lucky...:-). peterb -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Boggini Systems Administrator/Corporate Operations E-mail: pjb at corp.sgi.com Phone: (650)933-6858 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Wed May 12 20:01:30 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 16:01:30 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation kinda stuck with me. If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor that could take the abuse??? Charles Brooks From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 12 20:52:51 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 16:52:51 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: Old stuff, there are several firms that were doing conversions to spark plugs to include piezo electirc sensors in them. If ya hunt under Piezio, you should find em. Was (5-6 years ago) $400-500 per plug to do, and that was for the transducer, only. Circle Track, had an article about it several years ago.. Oh, I think one of the sensor sources from the Injector Flow bench, did the plug conversion. I "think" detonation could kill'em Grumpy > Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone > about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were > discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being > able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation > kinda stuck with me. > If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder > pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers > would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample > rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor that > could take the abuse??? > Charles Brooks From goflo at pacbell.net Wed May 12 21:06:44 1999 From: goflo at pacbell.net (goflo at pacbell.net) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:06:44 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: SuperFlow sells/sold a setup for measuring cylinder pressure. Piezoelectric transducer, IIRC, involved drilling into the combustion chamber. Pricey stuff. Jack C. Brooks wrote: > > Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone > about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were > discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being > able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation > kinda stuck with me. > > If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder > pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers > would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample > rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor that > could take the abuse??? > > Charles Brooks From shannen at grolen.com Wed May 12 21:14:10 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:14:10 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Todd....!! wrote: > > I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > Will try gettin the 600 vac to idle better, maybe even run the ol > Rochester off the 70 Chev truck again.. I used to run this carb, had > GREAT idle characteristics, but couldn't break any lower than a 13.6 in > the quarter with it, it's only a 625 or so cfm Rochester... Q-jets from Buick 455 engines, 68-73, have larger primaries, flow maybe 800cfm. Other Q jets have max flow of, like, 740 cfm. (I'll grab the books later, if you need the numbers). Push the air door open (top plate for secondaries) and look at what limits the maximum opening. If the door doesn't open to slightly off vertical, the stop can be filed. Shannen From bearbvd at sni.net Wed May 12 21:16:34 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:16:34 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: >I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > >However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to >swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou >tthe entire rearend!? > >Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana >swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the >highway! > VERY INTERESTING!!! Especially since the tallest gear set Spicer ever made for a 60 is 3.54!! and the tallest set I know of, aftermarket, for a 60 is 3.33 (33 : 11), and not a very good one at all! (Look at the tooth count if you wonder why it is not a bright combo!) Where did he get his gears?? Taller gears are around for Dana 61's, but they were not made in 1970!! There simply isn't enough room for a 13 tooth pinion in a 60!! Regards, Greg From fmlin at kens.com Wed May 12 21:55:12 1999 From: fmlin at kens.com (Frank/G.speed) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:55:12 -0400 Subject: in cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: In cylinder pressure measurement would be tremendously useful, as is with any data you can acquire with data acq. Oh yeah a while back I asked people if they've read articles about the Soft Head. I have those articles scanned now: http://www.theoldone.com/articles -- Frank M. Lin | http://www.g-speed.com/pbh Honda related tech files frank at kens.com | http://www.g-speed.com/pbh/fastest drag registry Field Electronics, Z.Speed, NASA, skunkworks http://www.g-speed.com The T.O.O. Archive, Endyn - Energy Dynamics http://www.TheOldOne.com From bearbvd at sni.net Wed May 12 21:58:13 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:58:13 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: >Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone >about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were >discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being >able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation >kinda stuck with me. > >If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder >pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers >would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample >rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor that >could take the abuse??? I have heard rumors that fiber optic technology based pressure transducers capable of doing real time, in chamber pressure measurement, and for a reasonable (production plausible) cost, are in the very near future. I have not got any vendor info on them, yet. Regards, Greg> > > >Charles Brooks From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 12 22:22:17 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:22:17 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: That's GREAT Clive, Tahnks a bunch for the input mang! Later, Todd.... Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > > > > > I believe that 100 hp is a type-o and should've been 1000, right? > > > > do you mean 8 80 lb injectors for an 8 cyl sequential port injection > > system? That seems a tad bit big for 1000 hp... > > > > What's the formula ya used for this calc? > > avg .55lb fuel / hp under boost and .45 NA > p > the 80 is too large but leaves a little room for overboost etc. > > Clive From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 12 22:22:25 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:22:25 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: Oh man Ted, I got it from RANDALL'S, on Fuqua street right here in South Houston, by Pearland.... It's a very cool mag and talk about some power producing mules!! ALL the cars in it are FI'd some turbo'd some not, but ALL haul some MAJOR BOODY! Haven't finished the mag yet, but it's been great thus far... They only speak about GM efi as well as aftermarket but no other brands of oem efi systems suchb as the EEC's from Fart..er Ford.... BTW I DID get my 83 t-birds ignition to work with my good ol backup electronic distributor from my Dodge! Two wires and I was there, it's a spark producin foooo.... Had a great and powerful spark too... however couldn't get the dern points distributor in the engine's distributor hole, the points distributor was too big for the hole!! Wierd, ey? Haven't found an answer as to why yet, maybe I snagged the wrong distributor, like one outof a 351 instead of a 302, I can't tell the diff, they looked so similar!! If anyone has any insight to this, please let me know... Plans are to go back the the yard and trade the points for a newer electronic distributor out of a newer model Ford car... Any advice? LATER! Todd....!! Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > where do you get GM High-Tech Performance ? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Todd....!! [SMTP:atc347 at c-com.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 9:53 AM > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: Re: RPM independence > > > > Howard the article is in the May 99 issue of GM High-Tech Performance > > > > And the brand that uses Volumetric and other formulae instead of look-up > > tables is known as Electromotive.... Probably heard of em? HAHA!?? > > > > Keep me informed of your progress in this matter! > > > > LATER! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > > > > > Todd: > > > I would be very interested in reading the article you mentioned. > > > Please let me know if you find it. > > > My basic thought here is to emulate the working of the Bosch > > > mechanical CIS fuel injection system electronically which would allow > > > it to be modulated by feedback, but still yield a system simple enough > > > to be operated by a very low cost controller. Injector timing is > > > irrelevant, therefore injector firing rate is also irrelevant within > > > the range above engine RPM. > > > Perhaps mathematical formulae are not adequate to control fuel > > > delivery.... maybe lookup tables are necessary. The Bosch mechanical > > > system used a shaped MAF to keep fuel flow which was mechanically > > > controlled in line with the motion of the MAF actuator arm. This put > > > the mathematical calculation into the profile of the MAF throat which > > > was in effect a computer (a mechanical computer). It took far more > > > intelligence in my opinion to design this one part than to program > > > look up tables which can be done by trial and error, or by a simple > > > feedback system. I believe I could sit here and flow chart out and > > > write a program to generate the lookup tables based on feedback, and > > > minimal programmer input. I'm just looking at different possible > > > approaches to the problem of managing fuel delivery via computer. > > > H.W. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Todd....!! > > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 1:15 PM > > > Subject: Re: RPM independence > > > > > > >Hello Howard, > > > > > > > >your theory is TOTALLY GREAT and acceptable, and a system has alread > > > >ybeen created, produced, and marketed, and it's gone over wiht a > > > pretty > > > >good fine tooth comb within on eof the laterChecvy Hi po mags dealing > > > >with all of the diff types, makes, and brands of FI for just about > > > any > > > >type engine! > > > > > > > >Will get the name of the mag, I know you already know about the mag, > > > >just maybe not about the article(s) within this specific issue? > > > > > > > >But the basic function of the type system I believe you are referring > > > to > > > >is based upon the use of formulas instead of tables... I think you > > > are > > > >right in line witht the way this REALLY advanced system is designed > > > to > > > >function! > > > > > > > >Will post details later, (mag's at home)! > > > > > > > >LATER! > > > > > > > >Todd....!! > > > > > > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > > >> > > > >> I have given more than a little thought to the possibility of an > > > EFI > > > >> system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. The > > > idea > > > >> being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the timing is > > > >> irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or more. > > > >> Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The > > > injectors > > > >> would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase pulse > > > >> rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased > > > thereafter. > > > >> Such a system could be operated based on mathematical formulae > > > rather > > > >> than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT could > > > modify > > > >> the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give > > > >> accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air > > > density > > > >> should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle minor > > > >> dicrepancies. > > > >> A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes from > > > the > > > >> desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because of RPM > > > >> dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only in the > > > >> context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only directly > > > >> related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, Throttle > > > >> Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF tells us > > > >> how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system must > > > then > > > >> work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for that rate > > > to > > > >> achieve the desired delivery per unit time. > > > >> If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse width > > > per > > > >> pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many pulses > > > >> per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. At some > > > >> point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that point > > > >> pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be modified > > > above > > > >> that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you are > > > >> changing the simple the program becomes. > > > >> Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but then > > > I'm a > > > >> simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of thought. > > > >> H.W. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 12 22:22:27 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:22:27 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Thanks for the advice mang, it's priceless!! As for this injector bung thing... So you have to WELD the bungs into aluminum? Is there a web site about this? I'd like to go ahead and start weldin some bungs(Where do I buy em? and for how much) into my m-1 dual quad sittin in the closet justa waitin to come out n play.... Thanks so much for all you experience man! Appreciate it! LATER! Todd....!! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > The ignition wires protruding from the front tend to make the engine > > look messy... > > The electromotive system has the same coil pack setup as the modern > day GM TPI engines, including the Grand National, most FWD 3800cc > engines, Camaros & Vettes. > > > Where would ya'll recommend mounting the big cmoputer and coil packs on > > a big car like my 70 Coronet Superbee(Looks kinda like a Dukes a Hazard > > 69 Charger) > > The whole EFI is one piece (Electromotive), so it goes on top of your > intake, or on your firewall. If you have a dual-carb hi-rise plenum, > it fits under certain ones, but it will get fairly hot and shorten its > life. Firewall is the best place. > > > Would it go in or around the glove box? Or under the hood somewhere > > cool? > > The you'd have to cut holes in your firewall for the plug wires and > wiring harness. > > > Fred, your advice sounds like an affordable alternative to plain ol > > stocker injection... which would be tough to make handle my power > > demands...even without the twin turbo's! > > Well, I'm going with the GM OEM stuff simply because its a fun > project, and I can invest time for nearly free rather than buying > something for $1000. have to save some cash for the fabrication work > to make this all fit. > > > Hey, have you eve thought of creating a package deal for your Mopar? > > Naaah, I'll post pictures on the 'net and let everyone check it out > for free, not in the business of making money on these things... I do > them because I enjoy "fangling" and I get to learn stuff, which is the > whole point. Otherwise, I'd just plop a mopar crate motor in with a > big carb and be done with it. Certainly less effort than all this > welding of injector bungs and such. > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 12 22:22:31 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:22:31 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: You ARE lucky man! As for the diff 'tween the two dist's, the single point is shorter AND the larger diameter areas are too big to fit into the block hole! The original distributor that was in the t-bird has NO internals except the shaft and rotor, that IT, the shaft is in two peices, it is held together by two screws which is made so that you can index the rotor so the the tip of the rotor is phased correctly with the cap so as to reduce cross sparking, such as is one of the probs with the mopar electronic distributor, the rotor is a tad outa phase from the magnetic pickup so that when you put full advance with the vac advance mechanism(56 degrees!) there is sometimes a cross sparkin prob...) ANYHOO, will try and get a duraspark unit from the yard instead of makin my own from scratch outa two or three different brand distributors like Dr. Frankenstein!! It just ain't worth it.... Thanks for your insight in this matter, I know no Ford people as friends, MOST of em are intimidated due to my loud exhaust and BIG lookin engine n all... So they kinda avoid the beast... However, I DID find a new place where a LOT of newer stangs and firebirds n all hang out, there were at least two stangs with s-trim superchargers at a parkin lot in Deer Park on Center Street, one of the dudes was pretty old but he DID have his $hit together and was pusin 17 lbs of boost on an o-ringed s.b. Ford 5.0! He even showed me his time slip! He was in the 11's with like a 1.7x 60 ft time! COOL? LATER! Todd....!! Pete Boggini wrote: > > Todd....!! said: > > > >Well, did ya'll know that all s.b. 302 Fords are NOT created equally? > > > >The single point distributor out of an old EARLY 70's LTD behemoth > >didin't fit into the 83 t-birds 5.0 distibutor hole! > > > >The first large diamter area of the single point distributor with an > >o-ring on it is too big in diameter for the hole and will not fit unless > >I turn the diameter down a bit... > > > > Huh? Let's see, I've had a 289 that I stuck a later model duraspark > in and it worked fine. More recently I had an '87 5.0 that I had > the same duraspark distributor in and it worked fine. Its got the > TFI distributor in it now since its EFI, but I don't remember there > being differences like that. > > Was that possibly a 351W distributor? They are longer, or so I've > been told, but they may be wider too. I will admit that I didn't > try and stick the single point distributor in the 5.0, well, I tossed > that distributor so I can't check now.:-). > > Of course, I was also told that since the TFI distributor, with its > longer shaft, would require modifications to get it to fit with my > Motorsport oil pump shaft, but it fit fine. I've since heard there > are two shafts, and I must have the shorter one. But, it worked with > the duraspark distributor. > > Boy do I feel lucky...:-). > > peterb > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Peter Boggini > Systems Administrator/Corporate Operations > E-mail: pjb at corp.sgi.com > Phone: (650)933-6858 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 12 22:44:14 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:44:14 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: Charles, You're in luck... I believe the sensors are mounted to the outside end of a spark plug and just record the pressures/vaccums involved from there.... If the sensor is mounted far enough away from the cylinder, the heat won't be a factor, only the accuracy of the readings due to pressure variances due to the length of tube(i.e. distance) from the cylinder tha tthe sensor is mounted... They do it a lot at the dyno's, I'd start with dyno shops after this e-mail thread and go from there! COOL! Please be sure and post what your findings are.... Later! Todd....!! C. Brooks wrote: > > Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone > about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were > discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being > able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation > kinda stuck with me. > > If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder > pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers > would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample > rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor that > could take the abuse??? > > Charles Brooks From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Wed May 12 22:46:13 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:46:13 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: www.kistler.co.uk has what you're looking for. They have sensors built into spark plugs, and ones that you drill/tap into the head. I had a catalog from them once, if you want to buy any of their stuff you'd better apply for a government grant first because it isn't cheap. --steve "C. Brooks" wrote: > > Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone > about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were > discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being > able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation > kinda stuck with me. > > If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder > pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers > would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample > rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor that > could take the abuse??? > > Charles Brooks -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From charlesmorris at erols.com Wed May 12 22:53:36 1999 From: charlesmorris at erols.com (Charles) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:53:36 -0400 Subject: poor mileage Message-ID: On Wed, 12 May 1999 17:14:19 -0400, you wrote: >>I get 6.1-6.2 mpg on the highway currently and MUST correct this >>I believe I CAN get over 20 mph with a mild 440 in a 3700 lb car! Uh, that's "mpg", right? ^^^ ;) >First off, if you are still running a 8 3/4 rear end, get a high ratio center >section ( 2.76 or so) and swap it May be a little tall depending on his cam... how 'bout 3.23? >Next, find a 650 or smaller _vacuume_ secondary carb >Third, run a distrubitor with vacuume advance on the street. Excellent advice. Too many hotrodders think "bigger is better" when it comes to induction systems. Same for mechanical-only distributors "it's a RACE part, so it must be really fast"! >Fourth, keep your foot out of it! Come on, Harold. The whole point of a 440 IS to put your foot in it! >You may not get 20 mpg, but you should at least double your current 6 mpg. I concur. I used to have a Valiant (~3200 lb) with a 383, Holley 750 vac.sec, vacuum advance distrib, Street Hemi cam, headers, 4-speed manual, 3.23 rear. Got 14-15 mpg on the highway at 65 mph. Mix of highway and Saturday night stoplight action, 12 mpg. Lowest ever was 8.5 mpg (nearly all at WOT going to the 7-11 store a quarter of a mile away ;) Then I got carried away and built a 7:1 440, BDS 6-71 blower, two 750's, no vacuum advance. Only 9 mpg on the highway with the same drivetrain. Of course it was flooding badly (dirt in the needle valve seats)... One more non-EFI story. My '84 F150 was only getting 12 mpg until I advanced the timing about 20 degrees (damper mark had moved, apparently, so it was way too retarded). Now 15 mpg with no other changes. Points out the value of a proper advance (i.e. including vacuum advance), doesn't it! -Charles From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com Wed May 12 22:57:27 1999 From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:57:27 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: diesel engines have been using this method for many years to monitor cylinder pressure and cylinder balance. Fiber optics have even been used to monitor the combustion event. AET of Canada has a new system called ECM (engine condition monitor) that is based on instantaneous crankshaft angular velocity measurements. The ICAV approach might be something to check out since 2 non contacting hall effect sensors mounted on the bellhousing measure flywheel speed. Periodic variations in crankshaft velocity can indicate each cylinders pressure and balance. Check out the May issue of Diesel Progress for more info. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: C. Brooks [SMTP:cbrooks1 at tqci.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 3:02 PM > To: DIY_EFI Mailing List > Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement > > Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone > about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were > discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being > able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation > kinda stuck with me. > > If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder > pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers > would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample > rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor > that > could take the abuse??? > > > > Charles Brooks From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 12 23:56:09 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:56:09 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. Message-ID: Just for grins, we barrier coat the piston domes the intake valve face, the exhaust valve face. In theory then we have captured more heat to be recovered by the movement of the piston, right??. Now that we have with held this higher heat, for a longer period of time, then more heat is put into the top of the cylinder bores, right..... The cooling system was designed so that the exhaust valve seat area is the "hot spot", so don't we now have to "reverse" cool the engine to get the max effectiveness out of this??.. grumpy > If you can find one--a methylene chloride vapor cleaning tank will clean > aluminium and titanium to a degree that you would not believe without > harming the metal at all. It will all but make any oils JUMP off the parts! > Regards, Greg From wilman at hkabc.net Thu May 13 00:34:35 1999 From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:34:35 -0400 Subject: A very English EFI system Message-ID: ---------- > From: Robertson, Nigel > To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > Subject: A very English EFI system > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 6:48 PM > > HI, > > This is my first post to this mailing list, although I have been reading all > your comments for some time now. They have been both interesting and in a > lot of cases useful. > > This may be a long shot but have any of you guys had any dealings with the > Rover MEMS engine management system designed by Motorola. I would like to > look more deeply at this system because I have two cars which use them. > However, the automotive industry in the UK is a very Secret society and > getting any information is virtually impossible. Any information from > dealers is usually wrong because they do not have the technical expertise to > answer questions. > > So, I am trying this list as a last resort. If anybody has opened one up I > would be interested in hearing from you, or , if anyone is interesting in > trying the US route of gaining info for me (Freedom of Information is a > wonderful thing) I would be most grateful. > > Thanks In Advance > > Nigel > I think the system is designed by a British company called Gems. They should serial reprogrmmable. Which model of cars have you got? I am using one of their programmable systems on a Peugeot. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Nigel Robertson, BEng. CEng. MIEE. > Senior Engineer > Roke Manor Research Ltd > Old Salisbury Lane > Romsey > SO51 0ZN > Tel 01794 833524 > Fax 01794 526943 > email nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk > From wilman at hkabc.net Thu May 13 00:34:40 1999 From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:34:40 -0400 Subject: Honda Vtec ECU Message-ID: ---------- > From: Alexander Wenning > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Honda Vtec ECU > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 4:21 PM > > WILMAN schrieb: > > Hello, > > > > Is there anybody out there who can help me to reprogram the ECU's > > found on 1992 onwards Honda Civic EG6 1.6 Vtec. Codes are either P30-G00 > > or P30-000. > > > > > > > > Wilman > > That?s really not easy. You have to switch the processor from internal rom to > external rom. Read the internal Rom from the processor and then fit a 27c256 > eprom into the blank space on the pcb. Could you tell me how exactly it can be done? What sort of equipment do I need to read the internal Rom? Now it?s very easy to modify the ecu > using an emulator. > > I have the information how to switch the processor from internal rom to an > external one but I don?t know which processor is inside. Having a look at the > ecu it shouldn?t be a problem to find the processor type and read the rom. Could you forward the information to me please? > > I guess Chris Smith from Racelogic is still on this list (Hi Chris!) and I think > he should know about that. > > If you?re just looking for a cost effective performance increase I?d suggest the > Superchips conversion. They show an interesting 16 hp gain on the rolling road > (using high octane fuel). I need more flexibility on the race track. Are you in America? Is there a web site on which I can find more info on these ECU's? > > Regards > > Alex Wenning > From FHPREMACH at aol.com Thu May 13 00:52:20 1999 From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:52:20 -0400 Subject: Transplant Message-ID: In a message dated 5/4/99 9:18:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gderian at oh.verio.com writes: << That was the Hirth roller cranks for the Porsche 356. If there are too many rod journals between the mains, it difficult to oil them. Ferrari F1 flat 12 engines from the mid 70's had only 5 main bearings and used rollers for the rods. Gary Derian Subject: Re: Transplant >> I think the common VW ones were actually SPG's. Also, they were only rollers on the rods, with plain main bearings as I recall. The main advantage as I recall was that they were availible in stroker lengths without the problems of early welded strokers. A friend of mine with a bug shop had one and said it didn't really have any affect on performance. I think Crower still makes a roller bearing camshaft. Smokey Yunick remarked about that after a lot of machine work to make a roller bearing cam it netted no horsepower difference on the dyno. Unless you have a desire to drastically reduce the amount of oil circulating inside a motor as I recall John Lingenfelter did a few years ago with a 30psi at max rpm motor, there isn't a lot of reason for to look at rollers. Motorcycles use them a lot just to reduce the amount of machine work and remove the oil pumps which become a problem when things get too small. If you want to see the roller bearing idea taken to an extreme, look up the Husky four stroke motorcycle motor that used a reed valve to pump air/oil mist around the motor for a pumpless system. Smart them Swedes!! Fred From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 13 01:24:41 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:24:41 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. Message-ID: >Just for grins, we barrier coat the piston domes >the intake valve face, the exhaust valve face. >In theory then we have captured more heat to be recovered by the movement of >the piston, right??. >Now that we have with held this higher heat, for a longer period of time, >then more >heat is put into the top of the cylinder bores, right..... > The cooling system was designed so that the exhaust valve seat area is the >"hot spot", so don't we now have to "reverse" cool the engine to get the >max effectiveness out of this??.. >grumpy Yo--Grumpy-- If ya put Bore Tech on the bores, that reflects more heat there, too, and things balance out better! Greg > > > >> If you can find one--a methylene chloride vapor cleaning tank will clean >> aluminium and titanium to a degree that you would not believe without >> harming the metal at all. It will all but make any oils JUMP off the >parts! >> Regards, Greg From bshaw at connix.com Thu May 13 01:40:45 1999 From: bshaw at connix.com (Bill Shaw) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:40:45 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: So we won't be having the open discussions about tuning the OBD-II systens like we do with the ALDL systems? What do the guys with new cars do when they hot-rod them? Stop participating in the program? >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:38:47 EDT >From: A70Duster at aol.com >Subject: Re: Modifying OBD-II systems > >So would big brother. I believe that OBD-II was created to keep us DIYers >from "hacking" into the controller. Just watch your arse. > >See ya, > >Mike > > >>As I understand it, OBD-II is more difficult to hack then the pre-OBD-II >>systems. Has anyone on the list worked around the security and >>successfully hacked their OBD-II system? What problems did you have in >>doing so? Did you need any special equipment? I'd love to hear any OBD-II >>success stories. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Bill >> >>------------------------------------------------------------- >>Bill Shaw >>'78 124 Spider >>(Will soon be) Fuel injected and stepping out over the line >>http://www.connix.com/~bshaw/fiat.html >>------------------------------------------------------------- >> From gderian at oh.verio.com Thu May 13 02:07:07 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:07:07 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: O2 sensors were running around in 1972. Bendix had a Cosworth Vega with EFI and an O2 sensor. I saw it in the spring of 1974 while interviewing at Bendix. First use on production car was Volvo 1978 or so. Gary Derian > "Program" lookup tables? "Feedback" system? When Bosch designed the > L-Jet, computers were capital investments that weren't particularly > portable, and there were no O2 sensors, though there was some primitive > exhaust gas analysis stuff - not particularly portable either. > > > "Gee, why did Paul Revere run around on his horse flapping some > lanterns? Couldn't he have just emailed everyone?" > From AL8001 at aol.com Thu May 13 02:11:06 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:11:06 -0400 Subject: Found 454/502 truck prom Message-ID: Don't know if this has been posted. >From the latest (1999) Jim Pace GM performance parts catalog: 502 truck engine swap package, lots of stuff to convert a 91-93 pickup. Most interesting to our group PROM PN 12366556 18 Psi fuel regulator for TBI PN 17113186 This engine makes 515 lb at 2800 and 340 HP at 4400 these number are _GROSS_ at the flywheel , not SAE at the output of the transmission. Harold From ECMnut at aol.com Thu May 13 02:43:53 1999 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:43:53 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: Not to worry mates,] The Snap_on tool man claims that the diag tool companies just won a big lawsuit that will alllow them to put MUCH more tuning power in the hands of the "non-dealer" mechanics. Also, if big brother is so against anyone touching the OBD-II ECM's, what's the scoop with the Hypertech Power Tuner products? They appear to be doing it okay. Buford In a message dated 5/12/99 9:45:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bshaw at connix.com writes: > So we won't be having the open discussions about tuning the OBD-II systens > like we do with the ALDL systems? What do the guys with new cars do when > they hot-rod them? Stop participating in the program? > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:38:47 EDT > >From: A70Duster at aol.com > >Subject: Re: Modifying OBD-II systems > > > >So would big brother. I believe that OBD-II was created to keep us DIYers > >from "hacking" into the controller. Just watch your arse. > > > >See ya, > > > >Mike > > > > > >>As I understand it, OBD-II is more difficult to hack then the pre-OBD-II > >>systems. Has anyone on the list worked around the security and > >>successfully hacked their OBD-II system? What problems did you have in > >>doing so? Did you need any special equipment? I'd love to hear any OBD-II > >>success stories. > >> > >>Thanks, > >> > >>Bill > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Bill Shaw > >>'78 124 Spider > >>(Will soon be) Fuel injected and stepping out over the line > >>http://www.connix.com/~bshaw/fiat.html > >>------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: > Received: from rly-yc05.mail.aol.com (rly-yc05.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.37]) > by air-yc05.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Wed, 12 May 1999 21:45:13 -0400 > Received: from esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.14 From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 13 02:45:08 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:45:08 -0400 Subject: Found 454/502 truck prom Message-ID: Who/what is a Jim Pace? I don't see any prom numbers that start with other than, 16 ------ Do you have a Broad Cast Code?. Is this using the 747 ecm?. Bruce > Don't know if this has been posted. > >From the latest (1999) Jim Pace GM performance parts catalog: > > 502 truck engine swap package, lots of stuff to convert a 91-93 pickup. > > Most interesting to our group > PROM PN 12366556 > 18 Psi fuel regulator for TBI PN 17113186 > This engine makes 515 lb at 2800 and 340 HP at 4400 these number are _GROSS_ > at the flywheel , not SAE at the output of the transmission. > Harold From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 13 03:01:05 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:01:05 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: > So we won't be having the open discussions about tuning the OBD-II systens > like we do with the ALDL systems? As time passes more will occur. I'd imagine most folks are leaving them stock til the warranty runs out. The 747 was first used in 87 and just now became publlic domained. What do the guys with new cars do when > they hot-rod them? Stop participating in the program? Most so far have had to send them to folks that specialize in them. Bruce > >------------------------------ > > > >Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:38:47 EDT > >From: A70Duster at aol.com > >Subject: Re: Modifying OBD-II systems > >So would big brother. I believe that OBD-II was created to keep us DIYers > >from "hacking" into the controller. Just watch your arse. > >See ya, > >Mike > >>As I understand it, OBD-II is more difficult to hack then the pre-OBD-II > >>systems. Has anyone on the list worked around the security and > >>successfully hacked their OBD-II system? What problems did you have in > >>doing so? Did you need any special equipment? I'd love to hear any OBD-II > >>success stories. > >>Thanks, > >>Bill > >>------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Bill Shaw > >>'78 124 Spider > >>(Will soon be) Fuel injected and stepping out over the line > >>http://www.connix.com/~bshaw/fiat.html > >>------------------------------------------------------------- From claresnyder at home.com Thu May 13 03:05:29 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:05:29 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 3:17 PM Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED > I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > tthe entire rearend!? > > Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > highway! A friend has a '69 'Runner with the 383 Magnum, 2.7? gears and wide ratio box. Good out of the hole with the steep low gears, and excellent mileage driving half sensibly in 4th. Pretty well bury the needle in third at redline. > From hobiegary at earthlink.net Thu May 13 03:42:40 1999 From: hobiegary at earthlink.net (GARY) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:42:40 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: What do the guys with new cars do when they hot-rod them? What WILL they do? Can anyone help this poor soul who is being controlled by his ECU gain some control over his ECU? -- GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net From shannen at grolen.com Thu May 13 03:52:11 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:52:11 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Just for grins, we barrier coat the piston domes > the intake valve face, the exhaust valve face. > In theory then we have captured more heat to be recovered by the movement of > the piston, right??. > Now that we have with held this higher heat, for a longer period of time, > then more > heat is put into the top of the cylinder bores, right..... > The cooling system was designed so that the exhaust valve seat area is the > "hot spot", so don't we now have to "reverse" cool the engine to get the > max effectiveness out of this??.. > grumpy > I can tell you this: Takes longer for car to reach operating temp on the gauge (sender in LH head) than any other car I've owned, with this coating installed. I'll let you know what the chambers and pistons look like when I pull the heads off, as far as possible heating goes. Shannen From twsharpe at mtco.com Thu May 13 04:25:19 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:25:19 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Just stick a narrowed 9" in it with Currie axles..all for less than $800. Sharpe Greg Hermann wrote: > >I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > >However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > >swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > >tthe entire rearend!? > > > >Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > >swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > >highway! > > > > VERY INTERESTING!!! Especially since the tallest gear set Spicer ever made > for a 60 is 3.54!! and the tallest set I know of, aftermarket, for a 60 is > 3.33 (33 : 11), and not a very good one at all! (Look at the tooth count if > you wonder why it is not a bright combo!) Where did he get his gears?? > Taller gears are around for Dana 61's, but they were not made in 1970!! > There simply isn't enough room for a 13 tooth pinion in a 60!! > > Regards, Greg From twsharpe at mtco.com Thu May 13 04:32:11 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:32:11 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: Let's see... the piston measures combustion pressure... hooked to a rod... hooked to a crankshaft....If we could measure crankshaft acceleration 60 times a revolution, we could come up with some relative numbers... we need a toothed wheel and sensor and ????... Sharpe C. Brooks wrote: > Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone > about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were > discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being > able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation > kinda stuck with me. > > If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder > pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers > would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample > rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor that > could take the abuse??? > > Charles Brooks From owly at mcn.net Thu May 13 04:41:54 1999 From: owly at mcn.net (Howard Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:41:54 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: Todd: Ford uses at least two sizes of oil pump drive rods.... perhaps this is different. H.W. P.S. Thanks for the magazine article info.... I'll try to obtain it. -----Original Message----- From: Todd....!! To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 5:18 PM Subject: Re: RPM independence >Oh man Ted, > >I got it from RANDALL'S, on Fuqua street right here in South Houston, by >Pearland.... > >It's a very cool mag and talk about some power producing mules!! > >ALL the cars in it are FI'd some turbo'd some not, but ALL haul some >MAJOR BOODY! > >Haven't finished the mag yet, but it's been great thus far... > >They only speak about GM efi as well as aftermarket but no other brands >of oem efi systems suchb as the EEC's from Fart..er Ford.... > >BTW I DID get my 83 t-birds ignition to work with my good ol backup >electronic distributor from my Dodge! > >Two wires and I was there, it's a spark producin foooo.... > >Had a great and powerful spark too... > >however couldn't get the dern points distributor in the engine's >distributor hole, the points distributor was too big for the hole!! >Wierd, ey? Haven't found an answer as to why yet, maybe I snagged the >wrong distributor, like one outof a 351 instead of a 302, I can't tell >the diff, they looked so similar!! > >If anyone has any insight to this, please let me know... > >Plans are to go back the the yard and trade the points for a newer >electronic distributor out of a newer model Ford car... > >Any advice? > >LATER! > >Todd....!! > >Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: >> >> where do you get GM High-Tech Performance ? >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Todd....!! [SMTP:atc347 at c-com.net] >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 9:53 AM >> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> > Subject: Re: RPM independence >> > >> > Howard the article is in the May 99 issue of GM High-Tech Performance >> > >> > And the brand that uses Volumetric and other formulae instead of look-up >> > tables is known as Electromotive.... Probably heard of em? HAHA!?? >> > >> > Keep me informed of your progress in this matter! >> > >> > LATER! >> > >> > Todd....!! >> > >> > Howard Wilkinson wrote: >> > > >> > > Todd: >> > > I would be very interested in reading the article you mentioned. >> > > Please let me know if you find it. >> > > My basic thought here is to emulate the working of the Bosch >> > > mechanical CIS fuel injection system electronically which would allow >> > > it to be modulated by feedback, but still yield a system simple enough >> > > to be operated by a very low cost controller. Injector timing is >> > > irrelevant, therefore injector firing rate is also irrelevant within >> > > the range above engine RPM. >> > > Perhaps mathematical formulae are not adequate to control fuel >> > > delivery.... maybe lookup tables are necessary. The Bosch mechanical >> > > system used a shaped MAF to keep fuel flow which was mechanically >> > > controlled in line with the motion of the MAF actuator arm. This put >> > > the mathematical calculation into the profile of the MAF throat which >> > > was in effect a computer (a mechanical computer). It took far more >> > > intelligence in my opinion to design this one part than to program >> > > look up tables which can be done by trial and error, or by a simple >> > > feedback system. I believe I could sit here and flow chart out and >> > > write a program to generate the lookup tables based on feedback, and >> > > minimal programmer input. I'm just looking at different possible >> > > approaches to the problem of managing fuel delivery via computer. >> > > H.W. >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Todd....!! >> > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> > > >> > > Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 1:15 PM >> > > Subject: Re: RPM independence >> > > >> > > >Hello Howard, >> > > > >> > > >your theory is TOTALLY GREAT and acceptable, and a system has alread >> > > >ybeen created, produced, and marketed, and it's gone over wiht a >> > > pretty >> > > >good fine tooth comb within on eof the laterChecvy Hi po mags dealing >> > > >with all of the diff types, makes, and brands of FI for just about >> > > any >> > > >type engine! >> > > > >> > > >Will get the name of the mag, I know you already know about the mag, >> > > >just maybe not about the article(s) within this specific issue? >> > > > >> > > >But the basic function of the type system I believe you are referring >> > > to >> > > >is based upon the use of formulas instead of tables... I think you >> > > are >> > > >right in line witht the way this REALLY advanced system is designed >> > > to >> > > >function! >> > > > >> > > >Will post details later, (mag's at home)! >> > > > >> > > >LATER! >> > > > >> > > >Todd....!! >> > > > >> > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: >> > > >> >> > > >> I have given more than a little thought to the possibility of an >> > > EFI >> > > >> system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. The >> > > idea >> > > >> being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the timing is >> > > >> irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or more. >> > > >> Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The >> > > injectors >> > > >> would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase pulse >> > > >> rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased >> > > thereafter. >> > > >> Such a system could be operated based on mathematical formulae >> > > rather >> > > >> than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT could >> > > modify >> > > >> the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give >> > > >> accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air >> > > density >> > > >> should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle minor >> > > >> dicrepancies. >> > > >> A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes from >> > > the >> > > >> desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because of RPM >> > > >> dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only in the >> > > >> context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only directly >> > > >> related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, Throttle >> > > >> Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF tells us >> > > >> how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system must >> > > then >> > > >> work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for that rate >> > > to >> > > >> achieve the desired delivery per unit time. >> > > >> If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse width >> > > per >> > > >> pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many pulses >> > > >> per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. At some >> > > >> point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that point >> > > >> pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be modified >> > > above >> > > >> that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you are >> > > >> changing the simple the program becomes. >> > > >> Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but then >> > > I'm a >> > > >> simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of thought. >> > > >> H.W. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > From clive at problem.tantech.com Thu May 13 05:38:10 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:38:10 -0400 Subject: Anybody got links to the following FAQs Message-ID: need urls for: any oil FAQ dino/synth/semi no veg/cooking same for Gear lubes/ greases / ATFs etc. same for power steering/ hyd oil EGR FAQ head porting FAQ or other engine mod FAQs ( general best, specific OK) suspension design FAQs frame/chassis/rollcage design FAQs etc Thanks Clive From nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk Thu May 13 07:12:01 1999 From: nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk (Robertson, Nigel) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 03:12:01 -0400 Subject: A very English EFI system Message-ID: Sorry, Your response to this email didn't make sense to me. Is there a bit missing? Thankyou Nigel > -----Original Message----- > From: WILMAN [SMTP:wilman at hkabc.net] > Sent: 14 May 1999 01:22 > To: diy_efi > Subject: Re: A very English EFI system > > > > ---------- > > From: Robertson, Nigel > > To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > > Subject: A very English EFI system > > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 6:48 PM > > > > HI, > > > > This is my first post to this mailing list, although I have been reading > all > > your comments for some time now. They have been both interesting and in > a > > lot of cases useful. > > > > This may be a long shot but have any of you guys had any dealings with > the > > Rover MEMS engine management system designed by Motorola. I would like > to > > look more deeply at this system because I have two cars which use them. > > However, the automotive industry in the UK is a very Secret society and > > getting any information is virtually impossible. Any information from > > dealers is usually wrong because they do not have the technical > expertise > to > > answer questions. > > > > So, I am trying this list as a last resort. If anybody has opened one > up > I > > would be interested in hearing from you, or , if anyone is interesting > in > > trying the US route of gaining info for me (Freedom of Information is a > > wonderful thing) I would be most grateful. > > > > Thanks In Advance > > > > Nigel > > > > > I think the system is designed by a British company called Gems. They > should serial reprogrmmable. Which model of cars have you got? > I am using one of their programmable systems on a Peugeot. > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > Nigel Robertson, BEng. CEng. MIEE. > > Senior Engineer > > Roke Manor Research Ltd > > Old Salisbury Lane > > Romsey > > SO51 0ZN > > Tel 01794 833524 > > Fax 01794 526943 > > email nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk > > From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Thu May 13 11:44:36 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:44:36 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: At 09:43 PM 5/12/99 -0400, you wrote: >So we won't be having the open discussions about tuning the OBD-II systens >like we do with the ALDL systems? What do the guys with new cars do when >they hot-rod them? Stop participating in the program? It's no more illegal to modify a 1999 OBD_II PCM than it is to modify a 1981 Carb ECM. There are rampant false rumors that OBD_II monitors your every move and that's plain and simple BS. OBD_II can be modified, but there are security measures in the PCM... to address the cal via the OBD_II (SAE-J1850) data link, there is a security algorithym based on the VIN of the vehicle. You request access, the PCM requests a code, you send the code, then your in. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca Thu May 13 11:54:26 1999 From: chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca (Wen Yen Chan) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:54:26 -0400 Subject: Honda Vtec ECU Message-ID: Hello, I think they guys on the Honda Hybrid page have reverse engineered the 1.6 vtec's ECU. Wen On Wed, 12 May 1999, WILMAN wrote: > Hello, > > Is there anybody out there who can help me to reprogram the ECU's > found on 1992 onwards Honda Civic EG6 1.6 Vtec. Codes are either P30-G00 > or P30-000. > > > > Wilman > From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net Thu May 13 12:13:08 1999 From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:13:08 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: Hhmm, OK. So I use a hall effect sensor on a toothed wheel and calculate acceration from the change in PRI as seen at the HE sensor. If I have a motor running at 5000RPM/60seconds=83.33RPS and a DAQ with a 10KS/s sample rate I get 120 samples per revolution. Now, how would I compensate for engine loading? Acceleration would be higher in 1st gear than in 4th, it would also be higher going downhill than it would be going up. There's also internal friction to consider. Could probaby get around the friction part by using some constant, but I'm not sure how to go about the gear changes and driving conditions... Charles Brooks ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Tom Sharpe Reply-To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:33:49 -0500 >Let's see... the piston measures combustion pressure... hooked to a rod... hooked to a crankshaft....If we could measure crankshaft acceleration 60 times a revolution, we could come up with some relative numbers... we need a toothed wheel and sensor and ????... Sharpe From AL8001 at aol.com Thu May 13 12:45:48 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:45:48 -0400 Subject: Found 454/502 truck prom Message-ID: In a message dated 99-05-12 22:48:43 EDT, nacelp at bright.net writes: >Who/what is a Jim Pace? >I don't see any prom numbers that start with other than, 16 ------ >Do you have a Broad Cast Code?. >Is this using the 747 ecm?. >Bruce Jim Pace sells GM factory performance parts. 1-888-748-4675 www.paceparts.com 430 Youngstown rd Niles Ohio 44446 This is from page 16 of the 1999 catqlog. "The conversion kit parts are intended for 91-93 Chevy GMC 10,20,30 series trucks originally equiped with a 454 TBI engine and 4L80E auto transmission" I don't know what ECM is stock for a 91-93 truck. The 12366556 PROM may be a performance parts only PN, don't have a broadcast code. It must also be used with a 18LB fuel reg kit# 17113186. Page 14 shows the engine availible by it self 12371054. It states " The HT502 is intended for 1970 and eariler Chev and GMC 20, 30 series trucks. The HT502 is not intended for use with electronic fuel injection. When used with EFI, under certain heavy load and high altitude conditions, engine damage may occur due to lean fuel mixture condition." I would tend to think the above is not recommended for a unmodified EFI system. ( since it's MAP/speed/density the ECM would never see the larger engine properly.) Harold From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Thu May 13 12:55:42 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:55:42 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. Message-ID: Not really. Lets look at what happens. Combustion - Third Edition. Irvin Glassman - page 96 (1) Following ignition, the primary fuel disappears with little or no energy release and produces unsaturated hydrocarbons and hydrogen. A little of the hydrogen is concurrently oxidized to water. (2) Subsequently, the unsaturated compounds are further oxidized to carbon monoxide and water. Simultaneously, the hydrogen present and formed is oxidized to water. (3) Finally, the large amounts of carbon monoxide formed are oxidized to carbon dioxide and most of the heat released from the overall reaction is obtained. Recall that the CO is not oxidized to CO2 until most of the fuel is consumed owing to the rapidity which the OH reacts with the fuel compared to its reaction with CO." Then one must note from the above or other references that the carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide reaction where most of the heat of combustion occurs essentially "freezes" around 700 c. The longer the combustion remains above 700c, the more of the fuel that will be converted and the more heat that will be released. Or another way to put it, when the temperature of the combustive gas drops below 700c, we essentially stop generating more heat (pressure) and live with what you have. Of course the reaction still goes on - but at up to orders of magnitude slower rate. Coating's reduce the heat loss "cooling" at the critical time around TDC, thus allowing more heat to be released in combustion and greater pressure to be made. Note that the heat increase in not from the heat being returned to the gas by reducing the loss - but from more CO completing to CO2 and thereby releasing more total heat. The majority of "cooling" occurs as the gas expansion transfers energy from the combustion gases to the piston. Since the face of the exhaust valve is significantly cooler, LESS coolant is needed in the heads and more might be required in the block - thus negating any advantage of reverse cooling. Previously he stated "and the fuel is consumed, to a major extent, before significant energy release occurs. The higher the initial temperature, the greater the energy release, as the fuel is being converted" Ceramic coating everything nicely increases the initial temperatures also by reducing heat rejection to the chamber. This increase in ability to convert fuel to energy is at the heart of the air pollution war - as it after a certain temperature begins to dis-associate nitrogen and form nitrous oxide products as well. Also to note - this book is primarily about combustion and it processes and most decidedly is not concerned with the otto cycle and carnot worship. > >Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:56:40 -0400 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. > >Just for grins, we barrier coat the piston domes >the intake valve face, the exhaust valve face. >In theory then we have captured more heat to be recovered by the movement of >the piston, right??. >Now that we have with held this higher heat, for a longer period of time, >then more >heat is put into the top of the cylinder bores, right..... > The cooling system was designed so that the exhaust valve seat area is the >"hot spot", so don't we now have to "reverse" cool the engine to get the >max effectiveness out of this??.. >grumpy > 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore From mc94633 at central.ntua.gr Thu May 13 13:11:44 1999 From: mc94633 at central.ntua.gr (John Andrianakis) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:11:44 -0400 Subject: A very English EFI system Message-ID: Once tried to reprogram the eprom in a Rover MGF VVC. Its a 27c1024 plcc 44 item. It was really very difficult to locate the maps with the emulator.Most of the bin file is 16bit but some areas are 8bit and very confusing. In the process while changing the values on unknown map the car died. After that it refused to idle but would work ok otherwise. The ecu had to re learn how to idle. That was accomplished with the Rover MEMS diagnostic aquipment at a dealer and not very easily. It required not just a normal reset of all learned values but to treat it as a brand new ecu. The relearning took over 30 min while I watched the ecu trying to work in closed loop, continiously closing the range of a/f ratios used and responding faster. The engine started rough and smoothed out during the day.Unfortunately the owner got scared that something even worse might happen to his brand new car so we dropped the tuning left it normal. I have not come up to another one yet. I have the stock bin file if you want to see and schematic of the wiring of the mems ecu but only one of the connectors(have to scan this one though). Hope I have helped. Regards, John Andrianakis. -----Original Message----- From: Robertson, Nigel To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: ???????, 12 ????? 1999 4:38 ?? Subject: A very English EFI system >HI, > >This is my first post to this mailing list, although I have been reading all >your comments for some time now. They have been both interesting and in a >lot of cases useful. > >This may be a long shot but have any of you guys had any dealings with the >Rover MEMS engine management system designed by Motorola. I would like to >look more deeply at this system because I have two cars which use them. >However, the automotive industry in the UK is a very Secret society and >getting any information is virtually impossible. Any information from >dealers is usually wrong because they do not have the technical expertise to >answer questions. > >So, I am trying this list as a last resort. If anybody has opened one up I >would be interested in hearing from you, or , if anyone is interesting in >trying the US route of gaining info for me (Freedom of Information is a >wonderful thing) I would be most grateful. > >Thanks In Advance > >Nigel > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Nigel Robertson, BEng. CEng. MIEE. >Senior Engineer >Roke Manor Research Ltd >Old Salisbury Lane >Romsey >SO51 0ZN >Tel 01794 833524 >Fax 01794 526943 >email nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk > > From clive at problem.tantech.com Thu May 13 14:28:32 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:28:32 -0400 Subject: Found 454/502 truck prom Message-ID: > > This is from page 16 of the 1999 catqlog. > > "The conversion kit parts are intended for 91-93 Chevy GMC 10,20,30 series > trucks originally equiped with a 454 TBI engine and 4L80E auto transmission" > > I don't know what ECM is stock for a 91-93 truck. The 12366556 PROM may be a > performance parts only PN, don't have a broadcast code. It must also be used > with a 18LB fuel reg kit# 17113186. > > Page 14 shows the engine availible by it self 12371054. It states " The > HT502 is intended for 1970 and eariler Chev and GMC 20, 30 series trucks. > The HT502 is not intended for use with electronic fuel injection. When used > with EFI, under certain heavy load and high altitude conditions, engine > damage may occur due to lean fuel mixture condition." > > I would tend to think the above is not recommended for a unmodified EFI > system. ( since it's MAP/speed/density the ECM would never see the larger > engine properly.) I would think that putting 20% larger injectors and a cam similar to the stock one would get you in the ballpark using the stock ECU cals Clive From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Thu May 13 14:39:53 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:39:53 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: -> O2 sensors were running around in 1972. Bosch began development of the L-Jet in 1968. From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Thu May 13 14:59:50 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:59:50 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: I have not been following this thread but I believe the mopar 8-3/4 axle is common for that car and compared to a stock 9" casing is about the same strength ( I am not comparing it to the nodular 9" stuff) High strength axles can be had for a very reasonable price from Moser. Ratios are available from the 2's to 5's. If you are producing 450+ HP I recommend aftermarket axles for the 8-3/4 (I have broke them in a big block A body with that HP) Bill Edgeworth Tom Sharpe wrote: > Just stick a narrowed 9" in it with Currie axles..all for less than $800. > Sharpe > > Greg Hermann wrote: > > > >I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > > > >However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > > >swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > > >tthe entire rearend!? > > > > > >Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > > >swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > > >highway! > > > > From nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk Thu May 13 15:58:45 1999 From: nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk (Robertson, Nigel) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:58:45 -0400 Subject: A very English EFI system Message-ID: John, THis sounds excellent information. Can you send me everything you have and what you did. The bin file and the schematic will be very useful, how did you acquire such goodies. Nigel R _________________________________________________________________________ Nigel Robertson, BEng. CEng. MIEE. Senior Engineer Roke Manor Research Ltd Old Salisbury Lane Romsey SO51 0ZN Tel 01794 833524 Fax 01794 526943 email nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk > -----Original Message----- > From: John Andrianakis [SMTP:mc94633 at central.ntua.gr] > Sent: 12 May 1999 21:47 > To: diy_efi > Subject: Re: A very English EFI system > > Once tried to reprogram the eprom in a Rover MGF VVC. Its a 27c1024 plcc > 44 > item. It was really very difficult to locate the maps with the > emulator.Most > of the bin file is 16bit but some areas are 8bit and very confusing. In > the > process while changing the values on unknown map the car died. After that > it > refused to idle but would work ok otherwise. The ecu had to re learn how > to > idle. That was accomplished with the Rover MEMS diagnostic aquipment at a > dealer and not very easily. It required not just a normal reset of all > learned values but to treat it as a brand new ecu. The relearning took > over > 30 min while I watched the ecu trying to work in closed loop, continiously > closing the range of a/f ratios used and responding faster. The engine > started rough and smoothed out during the day.Unfortunately the owner got > scared that something even worse might happen to his brand new car so we > dropped the tuning left it normal. I have not come up to another one yet. > I > have the stock bin file if you want to see and schematic of the wiring of > the mems ecu but only one of the connectors(have to scan this one though). > Hope I have helped. > Regards, > John Andrianakis. > -----Original Message----- > From: Robertson, Nigel > To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > > Date: ???????, 12 ????? 1999 4:38 ?? > Subject: A very English EFI system > > > >HI, > > > >This is my first post to this mailing list, although I have been reading > all > >your comments for some time now. They have been both interesting and in > a > >lot of cases useful. > > > >This may be a long shot but have any of you guys had any dealings with > the > >Rover MEMS engine management system designed by Motorola. I would like > to > >look more deeply at this system because I have two cars which use them. > >However, the automotive industry in the UK is a very Secret society and > >getting any information is virtually impossible. Any information from > >dealers is usually wrong because they do not have the technical expertise > to > >answer questions. > > > >So, I am trying this list as a last resort. If anybody has opened one up > I > >would be interested in hearing from you, or , if anyone is interesting in > >trying the US route of gaining info for me (Freedom of Information is a > >wonderful thing) I would be most grateful. > > > >Thanks In Advance > > > >Nigel > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Nigel Robertson, BEng. CEng. MIEE. > >Senior Engineer > >Roke Manor Research Ltd > >Old Salisbury Lane > >Romsey > >SO51 0ZN > >Tel 01794 833524 > >Fax 01794 526943 > >email nigel.robertson at roke.co.uk > > > > From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 13 16:21:05 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:21:05 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Sorry Greg, type=o, my budy has an 8 3/4, was getin ahead of myself in the prev e-mail... ALSO, didn't know Dana's don't go lower than 3.33! Definitely learned somethin outa that type-o error! Thanks for that info as well! I would really like to see what the bee would do with the tallest gears made for an 8 3/4, and put an 8 3/4 in the dude and let her fly, I only wanna turn max of 6,000 rpm so we'll see.... Already made a spreadsheet which cross calculates gear ratio with engine rpm with a 1:1 final drive... The only variable, which is entered as a constant in a specific cell is the tire height.... I don't account for any slippage in the trans/torque converter... Thanks again for the additional info about the gears! LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Greg Hermann wrote: > > >I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > >However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > >swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > >tthe entire rearend!? > > > >Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > >swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > >highway! > > > > VERY INTERESTING!!! Especially since the tallest gear set Spicer ever made > for a 60 is 3.54!! and the tallest set I know of, aftermarket, for a 60 is > 3.33 (33 : 11), and not a very good one at all! (Look at the tooth count if > you wonder why it is not a bright combo!) Where did he get his gears?? > Taller gears are around for Dana 61's, but they were not made in 1970!! > There simply isn't enough room for a 13 tooth pinion in a 60!! > > Regards, Greg From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 13 16:21:10 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:21:10 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: I have a 72 Buick 455 in my 72 Jaguar, but the carb that was on it was jetted for Cheyenne, Wyoming, I already messed up my first 455 that I put in the Jag due to this carbs' pretetonation causing lean condition... broke a couple of peices of ring crowns off the top of a couple a the pistons.... Damage was already done long before I swapped out the carb for a sea level configured rochester... Have already swapped out the 455 with another one, the Jag runs 14.6 @ 89 mph, has 4-wheel disc brakes, independant rear suspension, and is a posi and is geared for a wimpy 6 cylinder so it's geared really high, like at LEAST 3.73 or higher, don't have an 8 cyl tach in it, only the 6 cyl tack, which is WAY off.... It has dual fuel tanks that hold about 14 to 16 gallons each, has dual shocks on the back as well as rack and pinion steering, AND a full leather and wood grained interior! Can't ask for much more, except A/C, which is pretty critical in Houston humid and hot weather, ya know! Pretty cool car, it could use some FI work as well, gas mileage isn't too good, about 15-16 on a good day on the highway.... Currently has 205/60 15's all around on stock chrome steel wheels, will be gettin taller tires in the back for better gas mileage will lower the rpm on the highway considerably... also has limo tint all around and is painted dark blue... Just so people would know what just beat em at the lights or at the track, I stuck the 455 emblem off the grill of the Buick Estate Wagon next to the XJ on the trunk of the Jag and painted it BRIGHT NEON YELLOW so they wouldn't miss it.... THAT, however, doesn't help em when they're sittin next to me at the lights, they have NO IDEA what's about to happen to em... The rearend squats really bad and the front end rises pretty good and the sucker just takes off if ya give it the gas right, otherwise ya just spin, but still take off quick... haven't weighed it yet, have no idea what a stock 6 cyl XJ6 weighs... Do any of ya'll know? Thanks again for the info about the bigger Rochesters... LATER! Todd....!! Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Todd....!! wrote: > > > > I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > > > Will try gettin the 600 vac to idle better, maybe even run the ol > > Rochester off the 70 Chev truck again.. I used to run this carb, had > > GREAT idle characteristics, but couldn't break any lower than a 13.6 in > > the quarter with it, it's only a 625 or so cfm Rochester... > > Q-jets from Buick 455 engines, 68-73, have larger primaries, flow > maybe 800cfm. Other Q jets have max flow of, like, 740 cfm. (I'll > grab the books later, if you need the numbers). Push the air door > open (top plate for secondaries) and look at what limits the maximum > opening. If the door doesn't open to slightly off vertical, the stop > can be filed. > Shannen From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 13 16:21:13 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:21:13 -0400 Subject: poor mileage Message-ID: Hi Charles, Thanks for the insight n stories and all... I don't believe that gears and cam have anything to do with each other if we're not talkin about racing... And from what I've heard and read, carb cfm should be chosen based on a 30% increase as to what is theoretically calculated as to what is perfect... so a 750 may be a bit small, I shift at 6,000, haven't gotten my launch down yet, the tires don't stick if I power brake it even a little bit, so as soon as I get tires, I'l see which launch technique works best... If you BLOWN 440 gets better gas mileage than my NA 440 then somethins GOT to be set wrong or I just can't keep my foot out if it long enough to be able to tell what me best mpg is! Will try to be more disciplined in the future! Thanks again! LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Charles wrote: > > On Wed, 12 May 1999 17:14:19 -0400, you wrote: > > >>I get 6.1-6.2 mpg on the highway currently and MUST correct this > >>I believe I CAN get over 20 mph with a mild 440 in a 3700 lb car! > > Uh, that's "mpg", right? ^^^ ;) > > >First off, if you are still running a 8 3/4 rear end, get a high ratio center > >section ( 2.76 or so) and swap it > > May be a little tall depending on his cam... how 'bout > 3.23? > > >Next, find a 650 or smaller _vacuume_ secondary carb > >Third, run a distrubitor with vacuume advance on the street. > > Excellent advice. Too many hotrodders think "bigger is > better" when it comes to induction systems. Same for > mechanical-only distributors "it's a RACE part, so it must > be really fast"! > > >Fourth, keep your foot out of it! > > Come on, Harold. The whole point of a 440 IS to put > your foot in it! > > >You may not get 20 mpg, but you should at least double your current 6 mpg. > > I concur. I used to have a Valiant (~3200 lb) with a > 383, Holley 750 vac.sec, vacuum advance distrib, Street Hemi > cam, headers, 4-speed manual, 3.23 rear. > > Got 14-15 mpg on the highway at 65 mph. Mix of highway > and Saturday night stoplight action, 12 mpg. Lowest ever was > 8.5 mpg (nearly all at WOT going to the 7-11 store a quarter > of a mile away ;) > > Then I got carried away and built a 7:1 440, BDS 6-71 > blower, two 750's, no vacuum advance. Only 9 mpg on the > highway with the same drivetrain. Of course it was flooding > badly (dirt in the needle valve seats)... > > One more non-EFI story. My '84 F150 was only getting 12 > mpg until I advanced the timing about 20 degrees (damper > mark had moved, apparently, so it was way too retarded). Now > 15 mpg with no other changes. Points out the value of a > proper advance (i.e. including vacuum advance), doesn't it! > > -Charles From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 13 16:21:18 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:21:18 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: CL, It takes a LOT of gear to get a behemoth like our b-body Mopars outa the hole, 2.xx gears just doesn't cut it, as compared to 4.xx gears, no comparison... The torque of the Big Blocks still may feel strong even with the highway gears but it's not as effective as when ya use quicker gears such as the 4.10's.... I drove my 70 Bee with the ol 383 and 4.10's with an automatic 727 from Cheyenne, Wy to Houston, Texas back in June of 1989, got 15 mpg goin 50 mph most of the way... with 100+ mph jaunts about every 10 to 30 minutes to clean er out... Windows were down the whole way, except for when it rained in the hill country of Texas... That trip was with an 800 spread bore single feed dbl pmpr jetted pretty rich for Cheyenne's altitude(Over 5,200 ft).... And NO I didn't use ear plugs as I should've.... I was runnin dual cherry bombs only, straight off the headers, and couldn't go to sleep the night I arrived in Houston due to my ears ringing.... Have since acquired a LOt of single packs of those sponge roll up ear plugs for passengers and myself on those long trip days... Am about to install a set of 3 inch pipes with 3 inch 2 chambered flows, they're in the trunk, I need to have the muffs welded back onto the pipes, wonder how it'll sound, as compared to the current 2.5 inch pipes with el cheapo turbo's... Thanks fo rthe stories mang... LATER! Todd....!! CLsnyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd....!! > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 3:17 PM > Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED > > > I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > > However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > > swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > > tthe entire rearend!? > > > > Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > > swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > > highway! > > A friend has a '69 'Runner with the 383 Magnum, 2.7? gears and wide ratio > box. Good out of the hole with the steep low gears, and excellent mileage > driving half sensibly in 4th. Pretty well bury the needle in third at > redline. > > From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 13 16:21:21 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:21:21 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. Message-ID: Please do... Am very interested in this stuff... Todd....!! Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > Just for grins, we barrier coat the piston domes > > the intake valve face, the exhaust valve face. > > In theory then we have captured more heat to be recovered by the movement of > > the piston, right??. > > Now that we have with held this higher heat, for a longer period of time, > > then more > > heat is put into the top of the cylinder bores, right..... > > The cooling system was designed so that the exhaust valve seat area is the > > "hot spot", so don't we now have to "reverse" cool the engine to get the > > max effectiveness out of this??.. > > grumpy > > > I can tell you this: Takes longer for car to reach operating temp on > the gauge (sender in LH head) than any other car I've owned, with this > coating installed. I'll let you know what the chambers and pistons > look like when I pull the heads off, as far as possible heating goes. > Shannen From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 13 16:21:23 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:21:23 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Tom, That would be considered auto sacriledge.... It was hard nuff to get past everyone griping about seeing the Rochester on the Mopar, plus, the 8 3/4 mopar cn hold up to a stock bodied 70 Cuda runnin in the 9's with STOCK axles and stuff..... Well, I should state that they hold up to that kindof abuse for a lil while anyways, buddy has a 70 Cuda with narrowed 8 3/4 rearend that was narrowed and ladder barred, the axles are twisted a bit, but there was a LOT of nitrous being applied to those axles and it has big ol slicks under a tubbed car! Pretty strong if ya ask me... Will think about the 9 inch though... Thanks for the input mang.... LATER! Todd....!! Tom Sharpe wrote: > > Just stick a narrowed 9" in it with Currie axles..all for less than $800. > Sharpe > > Greg Hermann wrote: > > > >I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > > > >However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > > >swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > > >tthe entire rearend!? > > > > > >Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > > >swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > > >highway! > > > > > > > VERY INTERESTING!!! Especially since the tallest gear set Spicer ever made > > for a 60 is 3.54!! and the tallest set I know of, aftermarket, for a 60 is > > 3.33 (33 : 11), and not a very good one at all! (Look at the tooth count if > > you wonder why it is not a bright combo!) Where did he get his gears?? > > Taller gears are around for Dana 61's, but they were not made in 1970!! > > There simply isn't enough room for a 13 tooth pinion in a 60!! > > > > Regards, Greg From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 13 16:21:26 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:21:26 -0400 Subject: RPM independence Message-ID: Will find out about the diff's BEFORE I purchase ANYTHING else for the t-berd.... Will go to RPM performance in Pasadena(We call it STINK-adena due to it's paper mill releasing it's stink into the air every few days, it makes a person GAG just from a wiff of it!) RPM performance seems to know the stuff, have been mofifying a lot of VERY QUICK mustangs with s and t-trim superchargers(gearchargers, whatever) and I've never been within their doors, will soon and have both Ford distributors in the trunk of the Bee for when I happen to get within their vicinity..... Thanks for the oil pump drive info... And your welcome about the mag, if ya can't get it I can grab another one and mail it to ya or somethin.... have you done a search on the web for the magazine name? I bet it's out there somewhere's...maybe? LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > Todd: > Ford uses at least two sizes of oil pump drive rods.... perhaps > this is different. H.W. > > P.S. Thanks for the magazine article info.... I'll try to obtain it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Todd....!! > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 5:18 PM > Subject: Re: RPM independence > > >Oh man Ted, > > > >I got it from RANDALL'S, on Fuqua street right here in South Houston, > by > >Pearland.... > > > >It's a very cool mag and talk about some power producing mules!! > > > >ALL the cars in it are FI'd some turbo'd some not, but ALL haul some > >MAJOR BOODY! > > > >Haven't finished the mag yet, but it's been great thus far... > > > >They only speak about GM efi as well as aftermarket but no other > brands > >of oem efi systems suchb as the EEC's from Fart..er Ford.... > > > >BTW I DID get my 83 t-birds ignition to work with my good ol backup > >electronic distributor from my Dodge! > > > >Two wires and I was there, it's a spark producin foooo.... > > > >Had a great and powerful spark too... > > > >however couldn't get the dern points distributor in the engine's > >distributor hole, the points distributor was too big for the hole!! > >Wierd, ey? Haven't found an answer as to why yet, maybe I snagged > the > >wrong distributor, like one outof a 351 instead of a 302, I can't > tell > >the diff, they looked so similar!! > > > >If anyone has any insight to this, please let me know... > > > >Plans are to go back the the yard and trade the points for a newer > >electronic distributor out of a newer model Ford car... > > > >Any advice? > > > >LATER! > > > >Todd....!! > > > >Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > >> > >> where do you get GM High-Tech Performance ? > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Todd....!! [SMTP:atc347 at c-com.net] > >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 9:53 AM > >> > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >> > Subject: Re: RPM independence > >> > > >> > Howard the article is in the May 99 issue of GM High-Tech > Performance > >> > > >> > And the brand that uses Volumetric and other formulae instead of > look-up > >> > tables is known as Electromotive.... Probably heard of em? > HAHA!?? > >> > > >> > Keep me informed of your progress in this matter! > >> > > >> > LATER! > >> > > >> > Todd....!! > >> > > >> > Howard Wilkinson wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Todd: > >> > > I would be very interested in reading the article you > mentioned. > >> > > Please let me know if you find it. > >> > > My basic thought here is to emulate the working of the > Bosch > >> > > mechanical CIS fuel injection system electronically which would > allow > >> > > it to be modulated by feedback, but still yield a system simple > enough > >> > > to be operated by a very low cost controller. Injector timing > is > >> > > irrelevant, therefore injector firing rate is also irrelevant > within > >> > > the range above engine RPM. > >> > > Perhaps mathematical formulae are not adequate to control > fuel > >> > > delivery.... maybe lookup tables are necessary. The Bosch > mechanical > >> > > system used a shaped MAF to keep fuel flow which was > mechanically > >> > > controlled in line with the motion of the MAF actuator arm. > This put > >> > > the mathematical calculation into the profile of the MAF throat > which > >> > > was in effect a computer (a mechanical computer). It took far > more > >> > > intelligence in my opinion to design this one part than to > program > >> > > look up tables which can be done by trial and error, or by a > simple > >> > > feedback system. I believe I could sit here and flow chart out > and > >> > > write a program to generate the lookup tables based on > feedback, and > >> > > minimal programmer input. I'm just looking at different > possible > >> > > approaches to the problem of managing fuel delivery via > computer. > >> > > H.W. > >> > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: Todd....!! > >> > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >> > > > >> > > Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 1:15 PM > >> > > Subject: Re: RPM independence > >> > > > >> > > >Hello Howard, > >> > > > > >> > > >your theory is TOTALLY GREAT and acceptable, and a system has > alread > >> > > >ybeen created, produced, and marketed, and it's gone over wiht > a > >> > > pretty > >> > > >good fine tooth comb within on eof the laterChecvy Hi po mags > dealing > >> > > >with all of the diff types, makes, and brands of FI for just > about > >> > > any > >> > > >type engine! > >> > > > > >> > > >Will get the name of the mag, I know you already know about > the mag, > >> > > >just maybe not about the article(s) within this specific > issue? > >> > > > > >> > > >But the basic function of the type system I believe you are > referring > >> > > to > >> > > >is based upon the use of formulas instead of tables... I think > you > >> > > are > >> > > >right in line witht the way this REALLY advanced system is > designed > >> > > to > >> > > >function! > >> > > > > >> > > >Will post details later, (mag's at home)! > >> > > > > >> > > >LATER! > >> > > > > >> > > >Todd....!! > >> > > > > >> > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: > >> > > >> > >> > > >> I have given more than a little thought to the possibility > of an > >> > > EFI > >> > > >> system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. > The > >> > > idea > >> > > >> being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the > timing is > >> > > >> irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or > more. > >> > > >> Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The > >> > > injectors > >> > > >> would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase > pulse > >> > > >> rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased > >> > > thereafter. > >> > > >> Such a system could be operated based on mathematical > formulae > >> > > rather > >> > > >> than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT > could > >> > > modify > >> > > >> the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give > >> > > >> accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air > >> > > density > >> > > >> should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle > minor > >> > > >> dicrepancies. > >> > > >> A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes > from > >> > > the > >> > > >> desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because > of RPM > >> > > >> dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only > in the > >> > > >> context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only > directly > >> > > >> related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, > Throttle > >> > > >> Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF > tells us > >> > > >> how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system > must > >> > > then > >> > > >> work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for > that rate > >> > > to > >> > > >> achieve the desired delivery per unit time. > >> > > >> If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse > width > >> > > per > >> > > >> pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many > pulses > >> > > >> per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. > At some > >> > > >> point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that > point > >> > > >> pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be > modified > >> > > above > >> > > >> that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you > are > >> > > >> changing the simple the program becomes. > >> > > >> Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but > then > >> > > I'm a > >> > > >> simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of > thought. > >> > > >> H.W. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 13 16:21:30 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:21:30 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: COOL! JUST DO IT!! Todd....!! Tom Sharpe wrote: > > Let's see... the piston measures combustion pressure... hooked to a rod... > hooked to a crankshaft....If we could measure crankshaft acceleration 60 times a > revolution, we could come up with some relative numbers... we need a toothed > wheel and sensor and ????... Sharpe > > C. Brooks wrote: > > > Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone > > about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were > > discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being > > able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation > > kinda stuck with me. > > > > If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder > > pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers > > would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample > > rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor that > > could take the abuse??? > > > > Charles Brooks From A70Duster at aol.com Thu May 13 16:43:08 1999 From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:43:08 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: << High strength axles can be had for a very reasonable price from Moser. Ratios are available from the 2's to 5's. If you are producing 450+ HP I recommend aftermarket axles for the 8-3/4 (I have broke them in a big block A body with that HP) >> Just for though, a lower numerical gearing would multiply torque to the axles less than a higher numerical gear. So the lower the gear (higher numerically) the stronger the axles need to be, or with higher gears (lower numerically) stock axles would be OK. Just a couple of cents. See ya, Mike From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 13 17:31:53 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:31:53 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. Message-ID: Thanks for bringin us back to basics Robert! I have been enlightened! Where can ya pick up that coating stuff again? Thanks! Todd....!! ---------- Robert Harris wrote: > > Not really. Lets look at what happens. > > Combustion - Third Edition. Irvin Glassman - page 96 > > (1) Following ignition, the primary fuel disappears with little or no energy > release and produces unsaturated hydrocarbons and hydrogen. A little of the > hydrogen is concurrently oxidized to water. > > (2) Subsequently, the unsaturated compounds are further oxidized to carbon > monoxide and water. Simultaneously, the hydrogen present and formed is > oxidized to water. > > (3) Finally, the large amounts of carbon monoxide formed are oxidized to > carbon dioxide and most of the heat released from the overall reaction is > obtained. Recall that the CO is not oxidized to CO2 until most of the fuel is > consumed owing to the rapidity which the OH reacts with the fuel compared to > its reaction with CO." > > Then one must note from the above or other references that the carbon monoxide > to carbon dioxide reaction where most of the heat of combustion occurs > essentially "freezes" around 700 c. The longer the combustion remains above > 700c, the more of the fuel that will be converted and the more heat that will > be released. Or another way to put it, when the temperature of the combustive > gas drops below 700c, we essentially stop generating more heat (pressure) and > live with what you have. > > Of course the reaction still goes on - but at up to orders of magnitude slower > rate. > > Coating's reduce the heat loss "cooling" at the critical time around TDC, thus > allowing more heat to be released in combustion and greater pressure to be > made. Note that the heat increase in not from the heat being returned to the > gas by reducing the loss - but from more CO completing to CO2 and thereby > releasing more total heat. > > The majority of "cooling" occurs as the gas expansion transfers energy from > the combustion gases to the piston. Since the face of the exhaust valve is > significantly cooler, LESS coolant is needed in the heads and more might be > required in the block - thus negating any advantage of reverse cooling. > > Previously he stated > "and the fuel is consumed, to a major extent, before significant energy > release occurs. The higher the initial temperature, the greater the energy > release, as the fuel is being converted" > > Ceramic coating everything nicely increases the initial temperatures also by > reducing heat rejection to the chamber. > > This increase in ability to convert fuel to energy is at the heart of the air > pollution war - as it after a certain temperature begins to dis-associate > nitrogen and form nitrous oxide products as well. > > Also to note - this book is primarily about combustion and it processes and > most decidedly is not concerned with the otto cycle and carnot worship. > > > > >Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:56:40 -0400 > >From: "Bruce Plecan" > >Subject: Re: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. > > > >Just for grins, we barrier coat the piston domes > >the intake valve face, the exhaust valve face. > >In theory then we have captured more heat to be recovered by the movement of > >the piston, right??. > >Now that we have with held this higher heat, for a longer period of time, > >then more > >heat is put into the top of the cylinder bores, right..... > > The cooling system was designed so that the exhaust valve seat area is the > >"hot spot", so don't we now have to "reverse" cool the engine to get the > >max effectiveness out of this??.. > >grumpy > > > > 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" > 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" > 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant > 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" > > Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 13 17:32:01 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:32:01 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: Charles, it sounds as though you need to get some sorta input as to how much torque is being produced by the engine.. One way could be to put two sensors somewhere along the drive shaft or an axle shaft or something that you could calulate the 'twist' of the shaft using the two sensors timing differencs due to the varying load on the shaft that they are located on... i.e. if you know that a 2 inch solid shaft twists .1 inch with 100 ft lbs of torque applied to it, then using the sensors' timing difference of whatever the difference of time at a given rpm that the sensors' measure a .1 difference in shaft twist would be calculating that the engien is producing 100 ft lb.s of torque at that time.... Don't know if I explained that too well, hope ya get the point? Good luck, sounds like your DEFINITELY on to something here! Just don't lose sight of the issue that you're dealing with and what you're trying to solve.... Sounds like you will, at least in part, produce a device that's at least one step better than a knock sensor?... LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Charles Brooks wrote: > > Hhmm, OK. So I use a hall effect sensor on a toothed wheel and calculate acceration from the change in PRI as seen at the HE sensor. If I have a motor running at 5000RPM/60seconds=83.33RPS and a DAQ with a 10KS/s sample rate I get 120 samples per revolution. Now, how would I compensate for engine loading? Acceleration would be higher in 1st gear than in 4th, it would also be higher going downhill than it would be going up. There's also internal friction to consider. Could probaby get around the > > Charles Brooks > > ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > From: Tom Sharpe > Reply-To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:33:49 -0500 > > >Let's see... the piston measures combustion pressure... hooked to a rod... > hooked to a crankshaft....If we could measure crankshaft acceleration 60 times a > revolution, we could come up with some relative numbers... we need a toothed > wheel and sensor and ????... Sharpe From bshaw at connix.com Thu May 13 17:33:34 1999 From: bshaw at connix.com (Bill Shaw) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:33:34 -0400 Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #280 Message-ID: Here's a good one for head porting... http://www.sa-motorsports.com/diyguide.htm bs >need urls for: > >any oil FAQ dino/synth/semi no veg/cooking >same for Gear lubes/ greases / ATFs etc. >same for power steering/ hyd oil > >EGR FAQ >head porting FAQ or other engine mod FAQs ( general best, specific OK) >suspension design FAQs >frame/chassis/rollcage design FAQs etc > >Thanks >Clive From bshaw at connix.com Thu May 13 17:58:27 1999 From: bshaw at connix.com (Bill Shaw) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:58:27 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: And are these 'specialists' able to do much with them? I know that GM won't give up the source (over 1000 pages I hear) even to the specialists. Faking out the sensors is MUCH more difficult with OBD-II, since each sensor reading is independantly verified by some other method. Are these 'specialists' bypassing the OBD-II requirements making the vehicles non-compliant? Or have they made the huge investment in reverse engineering the code? Any ideas here would be appreciated. bs >> What do the guys with new cars do when >> they hot-rod them? Stop participating in the program? > >Most so far have had to send them to folks that specialize in them. >Bruce From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 13 18:28:09 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:28:09 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: I'd imagine that there are some aftermarket folks that can change any parameter they want. All, it takes is time, and money. I've even heard rumors, of a gm document being leaked out.. So far thou, little has been public domained, since it is so new, and not many people are working on it yet. As time passes, I'm sure more will come to light. How they are handling DTCs so far is anyone's quess Bruce > And are these 'specialists' able to do much with them? I know that GM > won't give up the source (over 1000 pages I hear) even to the specialists. > Faking out the sensors is MUCH more difficult with OBD-II, since each > sensor reading is independantly verified by some other method. Are these > 'specialists' bypassing the OBD-II requirements making the vehicles > non-compliant? Or have they made the huge investment in reverse > engineering the code? Any ideas here would be appreciated. > bs >> What do the guys with new cars do when > >> they hot-rod them? Stop participating in the program? > > > >Most so far have had to send them to folks that specialize in them. > >Bruce > > > From fluffy at snurgle.org Thu May 13 18:42:02 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:42:02 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: Okay, this seems to be the best place to talk about random, goofy car mods that just might work. :} Suppose I have a car that I want to pass emissions, but I also want it to gogood. Why couldn't I make some sort of cat-bypass system which would allow the exhaust to flow openly at high revs, but flow through the cat at more "normal" RPM? Maybe a solenoid-activated valve attached to the tach, or perhaps just a flap on a spring like at the top of a big-diesel smokestack. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Thu May 13 18:55:29 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:55:29 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: How about a test pipe for the cat... when you need to get it smogged, bolt the cat back in. ----- Original Message ----- From: William T Wilson To: Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 2:40 PM Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust > Okay, this seems to be the best place to talk about random, goofy car mods > that just might work. :} > > Suppose I have a car that I want to pass emissions, but I also want it to > gogood. Why couldn't I make some sort of cat-bypass system which would > allow the exhaust to flow openly at high revs, but flow through the cat at > more "normal" RPM? Maybe a solenoid-activated valve attached to the tach, > or perhaps just a flap on a spring like at the top of a big-diesel > smokestack. > > From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 13 19:00:04 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:00:04 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: William T Wilson To: Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 2:40 PM Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Usually illegal. Used to call em cutouts. Within the last couple years still available from JC Whitney Grumpy > Okay, this seems to be the best place to talk about random, goofy car mods > that just might work. :} > > Suppose I have a car that I want to pass emissions, but I also want it to > gogood. Why couldn't I make some sort of cat-bypass system which would > allow the exhaust to flow openly at high revs, but flow through the cat at > more "normal" RPM? Maybe a solenoid-activated valve attached to the tach, > or perhaps just a flap on a spring like at the top of a big-diesel > smokestack. > From TEBUTLER at mccain.ca Thu May 13 19:09:43 1999 From: TEBUTLER at mccain.ca (BUTLER, Tom) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:09:43 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: I saw an exhaust diverter valve in the J C Whitney catalog which will allow you to do just what you are suggesting. The device is controlled by a mechanical cable. Tom Butler > -----Original Message----- > From: William T Wilson [SMTP:fluffy at snurgle.org] > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 3:41 PM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust > > Okay, this seems to be the best place to talk about random, goofy car mods > that just might work. :} > > Suppose I have a car that I want to pass emissions, but I also want it to > gogood. Why couldn't I make some sort of cat-bypass system which would > allow the exhaust to flow openly at high revs, but flow through the cat at > more "normal" RPM? Maybe a solenoid-activated valve attached to the tach, > or perhaps just a flap on a spring like at the top of a big-diesel > smokestack. From kenkelly at lucent.com Thu May 13 19:19:55 1999 From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:19:55 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: I put a 95 PCM with my 96 LT1 to avoid the problem. I have been building an Editor for the 95 PCM, and as I go I have been comparing the two Chips. The 95 & 96 PCM have two Flash memories. They are usually labeled as the T side and the E side. Most of my work so far is on the E side. The E side is 512K in both years. The T side grew from 512K to 1Meg from 95 to 96. The following is what I have found abvout the E side. I have found that the data tables in the two E side chips are very similar, but offset a little from the 95 Chip. They apparently have added a few 20 or 30 byte data sets in the data area. SInce all of my investigation starts with the 95, then looks for the same info in the 96, I don't know what the new data they added is for. If you can break the download barrier or socket your Flash chips, I have found some of the tables. I know nothing about the OBD-II adders like the After-Cat O2 sensors. Ken Bill Shaw wrote: > > And are these 'specialists' able to do much with them? I know that GM > won't give up the source (over 1000 pages I hear) even to the specialists. > Faking out the sensors is MUCH more difficult with OBD-II, since each > sensor reading is independantly verified by some other method. Are these > 'specialists' bypassing the OBD-II requirements making the vehicles > non-compliant? Or have they made the huge investment in reverse > engineering the code? Any ideas here would be appreciated. > > bs > > >> What do the guys with new cars do when > >> they hot-rod them? Stop participating in the program? > > > >Most so far have had to send them to folks that specialize in them. > >Bruce From dewhisna at ix.netcom.com Thu May 13 19:31:20 1999 From: dewhisna at ix.netcom.com (Donald Whisnant) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:31:20 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:55:12 -0400 >From: Bill Shaw >Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems > >Hi, > >As I understand it, OBD-II is more difficult to hack then the pre-OBD-II >systems. Has anyone on the list worked around the security and >successfully hacked their OBD-II system? What problems did you have in >doing so? Did you need any special equipment? I'd love to hear any OBD-II >success stories. > >Thanks, >Bill > Bill, No, OBD-II systems in many ways are actually easier than their OBD-I counter-parts... The goal of OBD-II isn't to make it more difficult to tune, modify, or monitor, instead, the goal is to actually (in many ways) make it easier -- making it more standard across different manufacturers... There is an increase in device [sensor] performance and functionality monitoring within the OBD-II PCM's and this is where the common misconception comes about... This enhanced monitoring of sensors has caused problems for people who do aftermarket changes, since it may set trouble codes... What this means is that for even simple changes and modifications, it may be necessary to do either tuning changes in the PCM or change the "error detection" ranges within the PCM... However, it is good to do this tighter, more strengent testing, because you can detect problems quicker and track them easier to their source... Unfortunately, I can't give any details about how to hack, modify, or otherwise change OBD-II computers, because of my job... But I can rank the difficulty level... On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being stupidy simple and 10 being practically impossible, I'd give it about a 3... Good luck with it... Donald From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 13 20:06:51 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:06:51 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool./ Part2 Message-ID: OK, now, what really needs/can be done right. Since mileage is an issue, it's batch fire, vaporization ain't a bad thing for that, I'd be willing to leave the intake runner, and back side of the valve undone Do the combustion chamber (cylinder head, and piston top). Exhaust valve, face, and backside. Then the exhaust runner Then the exhaust manifold inside and out. Barrier coat the bottom of the intake manifold to keep the oil heat off of it. What's wrong/right with this picture Block too large for oven so is a no doer Bruce From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Thu May 13 20:27:25 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:27:25 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: On Thu, 13 May 1999, Bill Edgeworth wrote: > I have not been following this thread but I believe the mopar 8-3/4 axle is > common for that car and compared to a stock 9" casing is about the same strength > ( I am not comparing it to the nodular 9" stuff) High strength axles can be had Considering that most 8 3/4 centers were steel, they were considerably stronger [and lighter] than a 9 inch, nodular or otherwise. From clive at problem.tantech.com Thu May 13 20:35:34 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:35:34 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool./ Part2 Message-ID: > > I'd be willing to leave the intake runner, and back side of the valve undone I would be more incliined to do the trunner and leave just the valve back > Do the combustion chamber (cylinder head, and piston top). > Exhaust valve, face, and backside. be careful around the valve seats you want heat to conduct there > Then the exhaust runner > Then the exhaust manifold inside and out. > Barrier coat the bottom of the intake manifold to keep the oil heat off of > it. > What's wrong/right with this picture > Block too large for oven so is a no doer get a larger oven maybe a powder coating place would help you out on this if you could do the block the only areas that would be an improvement would be the cam/lifter valley, inside the timing cover, and the back inside the B/H mount this will force heat in the water jackets to radiate to the outside of the engine ubut may make the oil run hotter (can usa an oil cooler for this) Clive From sierraj at home.com Thu May 13 21:16:54 1999 From: sierraj at home.com (Jeff W) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:16:54 -0400 Subject: horse power/acceleration Message-ID: dear sir I am writing to you because I am looking for the correct calculation/formula for finding the approximate horse power conversion from vehicle weight and acceleration curve. I am presently in Vancouver community college, in Vancouver B.C and my instructor (Dave William's) gave me your e-mail address feeling that you may be of some help to me. vehicle weight + acceleration curve + some other things I don't know= approximate HP at RPM. thank you! Jeff Weinberger sierraj at home.com From Cameano at aol.com Thu May 13 21:32:06 1999 From: Cameano at aol.com (Cameano at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:32:06 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: The only problem with these cutouts is, there's really no good way to install them, especially in newer cars, with stainless steel exhaust systems. I came across a pair in the box, that a friend was tossing out. Reason being, they are made of cast iron, and are only 2" inside diameter. Something they don't mention in the catalog. I didn't pick them up, don't need more junk. Darren In a message dated 5/13/99 10:50:15 AM Hawaiian Standard Time, TEBUTLER at mccain.ca writes: << I saw an exhaust diverter valve in the J C Whitney catalog which will allow you to do just what you are suggesting. The device is controlled by a mechanical cable. Tom Butler > -----Original Message----- > From: William T Wilson [SMTP:fluffy at snurgle.org] > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 3:41 PM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust > > Okay, this seems to be the best place to talk about random, goofy car mods > that just might work. :} > > Suppose I have a car that I want to pass emissions, but I also want it to > gogood. Why couldn't I make some sort of cat-bypass system which would > allow the exhaust to flow openly at high revs, but flow through the cat at > more "normal" RPM? Maybe a solenoid-activated valve attached to the tach, > or perhaps just a flap on a spring like at the top of a big-diesel > smokestack. >> From ord at aei.ca Thu May 13 21:51:34 1999 From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:51:34 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: I use high flow cats. For the 1 or 2 HP difference, I really don't think it's worth the risk of legal problems or injuring my environmental consience. ;) On the other hand, I am wondering if I could improve low rpm torque if I could add a variable restrictor?? -----Original Message----- From: William T Wilson To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 4:35 PM Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust >Okay, this seems to be the best place to talk about random, goofy car mods >that just might work. :} > >Suppose I have a car that I want to pass emissions, but I also want it to >gogood. Why couldn't I make some sort of cat-bypass system which would >allow the exhaust to flow openly at high revs, but flow through the cat at >more "normal" RPM? Maybe a solenoid-activated valve attached to the tach, >or perhaps just a flap on a spring like at the top of a big-diesel >smokestack. > > From claresnyder at home.com Thu May 13 22:41:50 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:41:50 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 1:54 PM Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED > CL, > > It takes a LOT of gear to get a behemoth like our b-body Mopars outa the > hole, 2.xx gears just doesn't cut it, as compared to 4.xx gears, no > comparison... What is your low gear ratio? With a close ratio box you need 4+ gearing - with the wide ratio box and the long gears you get the same overall ratio (within a few points) - you just need a bit wider power band because you have to wind it a bit tighter before shifting or you can bog it out. > > The torque of the Big Blocks still may feel strong even with the highway > gears but it's not as effective as when ya use quicker gears such as the > 4.10's.... Again, it is overall ratio that counts - don't matter a hill of beans where the gearing is done, and a big block has a nice fat power curve so it pulls strong in second without floating the valves in low. > > I drove my 70 Bee with the ol 383 and 4.10's with an automatic 727 from > Cheyenne, Wy to Houston, Texas back in June of 1989, got 15 mpg goin 50 > mph most of the way... with 100+ mph jaunts about every 10 to 30 minutes > to clean er out... Windows were down the whole way, except for when it > rained in the hill country of Texas... That trip was with an 800 spread > bore single feed dbl pmpr jetted pretty rich for Cheyenne's > altitude(Over 5,200 ft).... > > And NO I didn't use ear plugs as I should've.... I was runnin dual > cherry bombs only, straight off the headers, and couldn't go to sleep > the night I arrived in Houston due to my ears ringing.... > > Have since acquired a LOt of single packs of those sponge roll up ear > plugs for passengers and myself on those long trip days... > > Am about to install a set of 3 inch pipes with 3 inch 2 chambered flows, > they're in the trunk, I need to have the muffs welded back onto the > pipes, wonder how it'll sound, as compared to the current 2.5 inch pipes > with el cheapo turbo's... > > Thanks fo rthe stories mang... > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > If you want sweet ya gotta drive a 264 flatty with a short Thrush from Waterloo Ontario to Tulsa Oklahoma in August. The big six barks real nice - about 28MPG in an air conditioned '57 half ton. Pulling away from a stop in second was no problem either. The trip from Waterloo to Murray Harbour PEI in the 53 Hemi Coronet Sierra (373 gears and overdrive) made 18 hours of fantastic music as well at about the same mileage. Both were quiet enough to get by the coppers without any trouble, yet healthy sounding enough to be "cool". The 264 P'up was a bear in the rain or hot weather, pulling away without squeaking the tires took some practice, or second gear. The guy who has it now has a 340 AAR in it and about 48" of rubber under the bed. > > > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Todd....!! > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 3:17 PM > > Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED > > > > > I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > > > > However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > > > swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > > > tthe entire rearend!? > > > > > > Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > > > swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > > > highway! > > > > A friend has a '69 'Runner with the 383 Magnum, 2.7? gears and wide ratio > > box. Good out of the hole with the steep low gears, and excellent mileage > > driving half sensibly in 4th. Pretty well bury the needle in third at > > redline. > > > > > > From quest100 at gte.net Fri May 14 00:30:43 1999 From: quest100 at gte.net (Fran and Bud) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:30:43 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Also the 8 3/4 is a lot more efficient than a 9". meaning that a 9" eats up a lot more of the HP that gets to it. Bud ---------- >From: Jim Davies >To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED >Date: Thu, May 13, 1999, 1:27 PM > > > >On Thu, 13 May 1999, Bill Edgeworth wrote: > >> I have not been following this thread but I believe the mopar 8-3/4 axle is >> common for that car and compared to a stock 9" casing is about the same strength >> ( I am not comparing it to the nodular 9" stuff) High strength axles can be had > >Considering that most 8 3/4 centers were steel, they were considerably >stronger [and lighter] than a 9 inch, nodular or otherwise. > > From israels at MNSi.Net Fri May 14 00:31:23 1999 From: israels at MNSi.Net (Todd Israels) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:31:23 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: At 02:31 PM 5/13/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:55:12 -0400 >>From: Bill Shaw >>Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems >> >>Hi, >> >>As I understand it, OBD-II is more difficult to hack then the pre-OBD-II >>systems. Has anyone on the list worked around the security and >>successfully hacked their OBD-II system? What problems did you have in >>doing so? Did you need any special equipment? I'd love to hear any OBD-II >>success stories. >> >>Thanks, >>Bill >> > >Bill, > >No, OBD-II systems in many ways are actually easier than their OBD-I >counter-parts... The goal of OBD-II isn't to make it more difficult to >tune, modify, or monitor, instead, the goal is to actually (in many >ways) make it easier -- making it more standard across different >manufacturers... There is an increase in device [sensor] performance and >functionality monitoring within the OBD-II PCM's and this is where the >common misconception comes about... This enhanced monitoring of >sensors has caused problems for people who do aftermarket changes, >since it may set trouble codes... > >What this means is that for even simple changes and modifications, it >may be necessary to do either tuning changes in the PCM or change the >"error detection" ranges within the PCM... However, it is good to >do this tighter, more strengent testing, because you can detect problems >quicker and track them easier to their source... > >Unfortunately, I can't give any details about how to hack, modify, >or otherwise change OBD-II computers, because of my job... But I can >rank the difficulty level... On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being stupidy >simple and 10 being practically impossible, I'd give it about a 3... > >Good luck with it... >Donald > > Without causing any trouble is it possible to read the current VE table and replace values in the table through the ADL interface? From what I have heard from dealer tecs a new VE table or even operational program for the PCM but they are unaware of being able to read this info, but then they dont need to? thanks for any info you can give Todd Israels From israels at MNSi.Net Fri May 14 00:37:20 1999 From: israels at MNSi.Net (Todd Israels) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:37:20 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: At 04:10 PM 5/13/99 -0300, you wrote: >I saw an exhaust diverter valve in the J C Whitney catalog which will allow >you to do just what you are suggesting. The device is controlled by a >mechanical cable. >Tom Butler > > The racing version of the 3rd generation Fbody had a Y that went to the side of the car and had a bolt on cap with a gasket for street use. Could be rare to find but simmilar setup may be available for the current cars. Could be built also and dont know what smog cops will think. Todd Israels From wilman at hkabc.net Fri May 14 00:49:59 1999 From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:49:59 -0400 Subject: Honda Vtec ECU Message-ID: ---------- > From: Wen Yen Chan > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Honda Vtec ECU > Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 7:29 PM > > Hello, > > I think they guys on the Honda Hybrid page have reverse engineered the 1.6 > vtec's ECU. Would you happen to know how I could get on this page? > > Wen > > On Wed, 12 May 1999, WILMAN wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Is there anybody out there who can help me to reprogram the ECU's > > found on 1992 onwards Honda Civic EG6 1.6 Vtec. Codes are either P30-G00 > > or P30-000. > > > > > > > > Wilman > > > From Wayne.MacDonald at zurich.com.au Fri May 14 00:58:04 1999 From: Wayne.MacDonald at zurich.com.au (Wayne.MacDonald at zurich.com.au) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:58:04 -0400 Subject: OBD_II You asked for experiences Message-ID: I have three of the new Triumph fuel injected motorcycles and got pissed off that they would not sell me the diagnostic tool for the bike, This tool allows you to set things like the off-idle mixture and reset TPS shutoff position etc. The cool thing it allowed was a download of a new "program" into the computer, I suspect that this program download is in fact just new fuel and spark maps. Last month I was doing a little fiddle with the TPS signal and kept causing the ECU to go into limp home mode, each time I had to go to the dealer to get the ECU reset, after doing this a number of times I decided to try and reverse engineer the diag tool, With some research I found it used the OBD_II interface so I built an adapter to connect a laptop inline before the SAE-J1962 plug, I wrote a program to trace all the traffic then got the dealer to use the diagnostic tool to reset/read some of the sensors (He didn't know I had a PC connected), I then spent the next couple of days at the standards office going through the data I had gathered, I found that the first thing the diag tool did was request that the ECU unlock, to this the ECU responds with a two byte seed value, the diag tool then responds with the correct key for this seed value and the ECU is unlocked. The standards states that the ECU should apply a delay of 10 seconds between subsequent requests if an incorrect key is entered twice in a row. This means it would take more than 1300 years if you tried to use a brute force attack on the codes. When I discovered this I thought I had been whipped. I went to the dealer again to try and get a sample base of the codes so I could try and crack the algorithm used, I managed to get them to let me use the tool by myself and proceeded to plug it in and out 347 times (until arthritis set in). Once I had these codes I wrote some programs to arrange the data in different orders, once I did this I noticed that the second byte of the seed translated into the second byte of the key I then wrote a prog to create a translation table using the sample data, I found that when I printed the translation table that the data was ordered within the rows, This allowed me to fill in the blanks into the table, Knowing how to resolve the second byte means the brute force time had dropped to a bit more than 5.3 years (better but still a long time). I decided to write the brute force program and give it a go, The first thing I did was wire up one of my ECU's on a board powered by a battery charger. When I started to test the program I noticed that Triumph had not implemented the 10 second rule instead they allow three attempts then you need to reset the connection and try again, this means that I can try three codes every 5 seconds instead of one every ten seconds, this had sliced the time to not much more that ten months. I decided I don't need all he codes, if I have a large enough sample so that the unlock process does not take more than a minute that is good enough, to this end I have currently got my brute force program running, It displays the number of times it has unlocked along with the average time and max time to unlock, Currently it has 800 codes and the average time to unlock is 2:42 and the max unlock time is 15 minutes. It finds a new code every 10 minutes. I have recorded two downloads of different tunes and once I have enough codes I will try and work out what values effect what, To do this I will use my bench ECU, this ECU doesn't use an EGO sensor it uses MAP,TPS,RPM,Coolant temp and air temp. I have replaced all the sensors except the crank sensor with resistors (to give repeatable values) I have the crank wheel driven off a hobby motor and am using a 68HC11 to time the injector pulse width. I intend to drive the motor from the PC and have a program that can run through the rev and tps range and build a map, then I will change one value and repeat, using this process I will be able to isolate the range that the new value effects. By using a PC prog to build the maps I should be able to get repeatable values. If anyone can help with some ideas I am all ears. I hope I have not been a bore. Wayne Macdonald. From ferrariformulauno at yahoo.com Fri May 14 01:12:13 1999 From: ferrariformulauno at yahoo.com (Andre Grandi) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 21:12:13 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: Very possible and sooner than you think! I've seen some protoype spark plugs w/fiber optics on them at the SAE Motorsport conference last year in DEEETOIT...check this out http://www.optrand.com/intro.htm Andre --- Greg Hermann wrote: > >Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone > >about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were > >discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being > >able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation > >kinda stuck with me. > > > >If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder > >pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers > >would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample > >rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor that > >could take the abuse??? > > I have heard rumors that fiber optic technology based pressure transducers > capable of doing real time, in chamber pressure measurement, and for a > reasonable (production plausible) cost, are in the very near future. I have > not got any vendor info on them, yet. > > Regards, Greg> > > > > > >Charles Brooks > > > === Andre _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From ord at aei.ca Fri May 14 02:10:06 1999 From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:10:06 -0400 Subject: horse power/acceleration Message-ID: Take the acceleration at some point in your curve, call it A, and multiply by vehicle mass. This gives the linear force exerted by the rear wheels. (front wheels?). F=MA (it is convinient to measure acceleration here in G, and mass in lbs). Torque at the rear wheel is F / (D*2*PI), where D is wheel diameter. Engine torque is rear torque / axle ration / transmission ratio + driveline loss. (keep D in ft for simplicity, loss in ft-lbs) Engine HP is engine TQ * engine RPM / 5251. (when TQ is in lbs-ft) So: HP = (MA/(D*2*PI)/ratio+loss) * RPM / 5251. Add in air & rolling resistance, and you're almost there! -----Original Message----- From: Jeff W To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 7:35 PM Subject: horse power/acceleration >dear sir >I am writing to you because I am looking for the correct calculation/formula >for finding the approximate horse power conversion from vehicle weight and >acceleration curve. > I am presently in Vancouver community college, in Vancouver B.C and my >instructor (Dave William's) gave me your e-mail address feeling that you may >be of some help to me. > >vehicle weight + acceleration curve + some other things I don't know= >approximate HP at RPM. >thank you! >Jeff Weinberger >sierraj at home.com > > > From AL8001 at aol.com Fri May 14 02:13:40 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:13:40 -0400 Subject: OBD_II You asked for experiences Message-ID: In a message dated 99-05-13 21:01:00 EDT, Wayne.MacDonald at zurich.com.au writes: With some >research I found it used the OBD_II interface so I built an adapter to >connect a laptop inline before the SAE-J1962 plug, I wrote a program to trace all the >traffic then got the dealer to use the diagnostic tool to reset/read some of the sensors (He didn't know I had a PC connected) I've thought of this as well for my 99 Chrysler 300M engine trans swap. The program you wrote, is is just a serial port recorder? I'm not a programmer and just have started into the word of OBD II stuff. > I then spent the next couple of days at the standards >office going through >the data I had gathered, I found that the first thing the diag tool did was > request that >the ECU unlock, to this the ECU responds with a two byte seed value, the >diag tool then responds >with the correct key for this seed value and the ECU is unlocked. For the American cars, the vehicle serial # is programed in to the ECU. The ECU also has it's own (different) serial # printed on the outside. I wonder if the serial # laters the code. >I hope I have not been a bore. > >Wayne Macdonald. > > Not a bore at all! This is a great story on how to crack the codes! Harold From quest100 at gte.net Fri May 14 02:41:51 1999 From: quest100 at gte.net (Fran and Bud) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:41:51 -0400 Subject: horse power/acceleration Message-ID: Try this site for Bowlings Automotive Equations. Even if not exactly what you want, you will like it! http://sura1.jlab.org/~grippo/auto.html ---------- >From: "Jeff W" >To: >Subject: horse power/acceleration >Date: Thu, May 13, 1999, 2:19 PM > >dear sir >I am writing to you because I am looking for the correct calculation/formula >for finding the approximate horse power conversion from vehicle weight and >acceleration curve. > I am presently in Vancouver community college, in Vancouver B.C and my >instructor (Dave William's) gave me your e-mail address feeling that you may >be of some help to me. > >vehicle weight + acceleration curve + some other things I don't know= >approximate HP at RPM. >thank you! >Jeff Weinberger >sierraj at home.com > > From dewhisna at ix.netcom.com Fri May 14 02:57:54 1999 From: dewhisna at ix.netcom.com (Donald Whisnant) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:57:54 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: > > Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:36:14 -0400 > From: Todd Israels > Subject: Re: Modifying OBD-II systems > > Without causing any trouble is it possible to read the current VE table > and replace values in the table through the ADL interface? From what I > have heard from dealer tecs a new VE table or even operational program for > the PCM but they are unaware of being able to read this info, but then they > dont need to? > thanks for any info you can give > Todd Israels > Todd... Anything is possible via the ADL port -- actually called the DLC port on newer vehicles... Reading is actually easier than writing... Since the PCM uses flash memory, you can't write without erasing (unless you are only changing a '1' to a '0')... That means the write code must also know how to erase the flash and the read doesn't and is thus inherently more complex... Also, it means that most "writes" can NOT occur "on the fly" with the vehicle running -- since erasing the flash will kill it, not to mention screwing up checksums... Thats about all I'm allowed to say... Donald From twsharpe at mtco.com Fri May 14 03:33:05 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:33:05 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: All you need is revolutions per mile (each gear) and total weight (mass). Tom Todd....!! wrote: > Charles, it sounds as though you need to get some sorta input as to how > much torque is being produced by the engine.. One way could be to put > two sensors somewhere along the drive shaft or an axle shaft or > something that you could calulate the 'twist' of the shaft using the two > sensors timing differencs due to the varying load on the shaft that they > are located on... From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Fri May 14 03:47:29 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:47:29 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: Mostly what they have been doing with the OBDII stuff is replacing the PCM with a 95 unit. The 95 unit can be programmed by several sources. The other popular convertion around here (Dallas) is the Accel DFI unit. Accel makes a dedicated harness which plugs into the stock engine sensors and injecters etc. Personally I am slowly Collecting the needed equipment and knowledge to try my hand at programming the OBDII units. I am told there is someone out there who is supposed to be selling software and cables etc. soon. Problem is the rumor mill says it's BIG BUCKS. I guess they figure the normal DIY's aren't capable of using their software or they just want to make sure it's a limited source. As I find out more I will post. Scott P.S. I haven't forgotten the info on my ignition convertion. Just been to busy to sit down an write and dig up 10 year old notes. Will be posting this info soon. From twsharpe at mtco.com Fri May 14 04:00:45 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:00:45 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Just wanted to say that 9" Fords are easier to work on than Dana 60's.. Mopar 8 3/4 are fine unless you need a new Posi. Tom S From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 14 04:03:05 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:03:05 -0400 Subject: OBD_II You asked for experiences Message-ID: At 10:11 PM 5/13/99 -0400, you wrote: >> I then spent the next couple of days at the standards >>office going through >>the data I had gathered, I found that the first thing the diag tool did was >> request that >>the ECU unlock, to this the ECU responds with a two byte seed value, the >>diag tool then responds >>with the correct key for this seed value and the ECU is unlocked. > > >For the American cars, the vehicle serial # is programed in to the ECU. The >ECU also has it's own (different) serial # printed on the outside. I wonder >if the serial # laters the code. The SAE J-1850 spec states that the manufacturer can use whatever security algorithym they want... IE it's not a standard code formula. The protocol for the communications is a standard, as are the trouble codes... the rest is up to the maker as to how they want it. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Fri May 14 04:05:09 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:05:09 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: Ord Miller wrote: >I use high flow cats. For the 1 or 2 HP difference, I really don't think >it's worth the risk of legal problems or injuring my environmental >consience. ;) >On the other hand, I am wondering if I could improve low rpm torque if I >could add a variable restrictor?? I would tend to agree with ORD. I have run vehicles with and with out cats. They seem to have very little if any effect on power output. I think this comes from the early units they used in the start. Back in the 70's the cats were resterictive enough you didn't need a muffler. The cats they have today flow as well as a straight piece of pipe. I have built and installed a 3" crossover and single high flow cat system for a 96 Z28. The engine was a stroked LT1 with ported heads, aftermarket cam, headers etc. and a centrifical blower boosting to 15 PSI. On a chassis dyno it made 605 horses at rear wheels. Passed emissions test here in Dallas with .01 CO and .00 HC at idle and .00 CO and .01 HC at 2500. Biggest gain was installing a cat back system. 3" with Flowmaster. Second biggest was the 3" crossover. The cat had no effect at all so was left in after it was installed. This project is the reason for my interest in learning how to tune OBDII systems. In order to make it drivable ended up with an Accel DFI unit. Although I have no problem with it on the whole, it is a royal pain to tune with all the mods which were done to this car. Also it eliminated the EST system. On this thing it is definetly needed. Scott From nwester at eidnet.org Fri May 14 04:44:37 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:44:37 -0400 Subject: Just out shopping for injectors Message-ID: check out www.lindertech.com tell Jim that Lyndon sent ya--maybe he'll charge you more Check out Bubba's fuel injection tips--you'll love 'em. LWester at compuserve.com -----Original Message----- From: Fisystems at aol.com To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 6:11 PM Subject: Re:Just out shopping for injectors >Just out shopping for injectors ( GM port, 24-27lb) any ideas for a good >supplier? >Ken Murillo From shannen at grolen.com Fri May 14 04:50:49 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 00:50:49 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Todd....!! wrote: > > I have a 72 Buick 455 in my 72 Jaguar, but the carb that was on it was > jetted for Cheyenne, Wyoming, I already messed up my first 455 that I > put in the Jag due to this carbs' pretetonation causing lean > condition... broke a couple of peices of ring crowns off the top of a > couple a the pistons.... Damage was already done long before I swapped > out the carb for a sea level configured rochester... Well, I don't believe Cheyenne is too much higher than Hardin, MT. Before I left Hardin, I swapped the primary jets for jets that were 2 sizes larger. Once I arrived here (900 ft above sea level) I had to retard the timing slightly. The car is slightly rich now, but I don't use it much so I haven't finished the tuning. This is a 455 buick, 3.08 rear gear, 18mpg on the highway. Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Fri May 14 05:01:35 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 01:01:35 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: Vacuum operated valve, WOT= bypassed cat. Shannen David A. Cooley wrote: > > How about a test pipe for the cat... > when you need to get it smogged, bolt the cat back in. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: William T Wilson > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 2:40 PM > Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust > > > Okay, this seems to be the best place to talk about random, goofy car mods > > that just might work. :} > > > > Suppose I have a car that I want to pass emissions, but I also want it to > > gogood. Why couldn't I make some sort of cat-bypass system which would > > allow the exhaust to flow openly at high revs, but flow through the cat at > > more "normal" RPM? Maybe a solenoid-activated valve attached to the tach, > > or perhaps just a flap on a spring like at the top of a big-diesel > > smokestack. > > > > From serg76 at mail.utexas.edu Fri May 14 05:04:52 1999 From: serg76 at mail.utexas.edu (Sergio Ivan Ornelas) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 01:04:52 -0400 Subject: Honda Vtec ECU Message-ID: It's at http://hybrid.honda-perf.org The guys from the crx performance page are the ones who are trying to program the ecu, their at http://crxhonda-perf.org WILMAN wrote: > ---------- > > From: Wen Yen Chan > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: Re: Honda Vtec ECU > > Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 7:29 PM > > > > Hello, > > > > I think they guys on the Honda Hybrid page have reverse engineered the > 1.6 > > vtec's ECU. > > Would you happen to know how I could get on this page? > > > > > Wen > > > > On Wed, 12 May 1999, WILMAN wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Is there anybody out there who can help me to reprogram the ECU's > > > found on 1992 onwards Honda Civic EG6 1.6 Vtec. Codes are either > P30-G00 > > > or P30-000. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wilman > > > > > From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Fri May 14 09:58:54 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 05:58:54 -0400 Subject: "ION" information - current status? Message-ID: I've spent a few hours looking through SOME of the archived references to the ION project. I could not see any significant reference to ION in 1999. In fact most of the interesting information came from 1995! So... 1. I's there still interested in ION? 2. Did anyone decode and post a schematic of the SAAB ION sensor PCB (with the quad comparator)? 3. How can I get hold of SAE950003 & 4? Anyone got the essence of these articles in print (or are the original articles available somewhere via FTP)? I'm really interested in this project but the most I've seen is patent 4,648,367, (and I'm trying to look at some of the others but does http://www.patents.ibm.com/ ever actually work for more than about 10 minutes at a time?). -- Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 From dave_hempstead at hp.com Fri May 14 12:55:20 1999 From: dave_hempstead at hp.com (Dave Hempstead) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:55:20 -0400 Subject: OBD_II You asked for experiences Message-ID: Wayne MacDonald described what he found with the seeds and the security for the OBD-II codes. This is fascinating, because what I've seen in the OBD-I codes are similar yet different. For OBD-I, it uses the same external scheme for security. You get a seed back from the PCM, then you send it a code based upon that seed. However, the difference is that the code you send back is simpy a one's complement of the seed. Now, I've only seen this on one PCM, but I've also looked at the code inside the OBD-I PCM, and it appears to match. So, it looks like they've implemented a much tougher security method, but kept the same ALDL interface. Wayne, would you care to send me the tables you've uncovered so far. I'm curious what the seed-to-security-code mapping looks like. Also, we've got a guy on the list here reverse engineering the 96 OBD-II PCM code. He should be able to describe the algorithm. Dave Hempstead From dave_hempstead at hp.com Fri May 14 12:59:39 1999 From: dave_hempstead at hp.com (Dave Hempstead) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:59:39 -0400 Subject: OBD_II You asked for experiences Message-ID: With all this talk about OBD-II going on. FYI, I'm in the middle of developing a tool which will allow you to dump and then re-program an OBD-I PCM. I'm working with a 95 Camaro PCM. I am curious how many others out there are working on doing this for an OBD-II PCM. Once my program is together, I'll let everyone know, and post it on my web page. Dave Hempstead From bearbvd at sni.net Fri May 14 14:01:53 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:01:53 -0400 Subject: "ION" information - current status? Message-ID: >I've spent a few hours looking through SOME of the archived >references to the ION project. I could not see any significant >reference to ION in 1999. In fact most of the interesting >information came from 1995! So... > > 1. I's there still interested in ION? > > 2. Did anyone decode and post a schematic > of the SAAB ION sensor PCB (with the quad > comparator)? > > 3. How can I get hold of SAE950003 & 4? Anyone > got the essence of these articles in print > (or are the original articles available > somewhere via FTP)? > >I'm really interested in this project but the most I've seen is >patent 4,648,367, (and I'm trying to look at some of the others >but does http://www.patents.ibm.com/ ever actually work for more >than about 10 minutes at a time?). > >-- >Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au >Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 Lots of interest here!!--Just haven't had the time to pursue it! Greg From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Fri May 14 15:20:58 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:20:58 -0400 Subject: Bored Message-ID: Anything happening anywhere? Can't even get a rise anymore on DIY_EFI. But, I got the basics of combustion and a major clue about water into the archives. Doubt that anyone even understood - but got a nice start on WHY coatings work. Oh well, off to my unsavory computer store - FUCK Fanglers From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Fri May 14 15:24:22 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:24:22 -0400 Subject: "ION" information - current status? Message-ID: Peter Gargano wrote: > > I've spent a few hours looking through SOME of the archived > references to the ION project. I could not see any significant > reference to ION in 1999. In fact most of the interesting > information came from 1995! So... > > 1. I's there still interested in ION? There is plenty of interest, no question about that. There was a good summary posted under the thread "Gar's Crown Jewels" or something similar. > > 2. Did anyone decode and post a schematic > of the SAAB ION sensor PCB (with the quad > comparator)? > > 3. How can I get hold of SAE950003 & 4? Anyone > got the essence of these articles in print > (or are the original articles available > somewhere via FTP)? Unless you can talk someone into photocopying them for you, you'll either have to buy them from SAE or copy them yourself. If you're near a university with an engineering department the library will probably have SAE journals. If someone can scan the articles I'll post them on the WWW page. > > I'm really interested in this project but the most I've seen is > patent 4,648,367, (and I'm trying to look at some of the others > but does http://www.patents.ibm.com/ ever actually work for more > than about 10 minutes at a time?). > > -- > Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au > Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 14 15:58:00 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:58:00 -0400 Subject: "ION" information - current status? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Gargano To: Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 6:01 AM Subject: "ION" information - current status? One other "important" looking one seems to be 4.862.093. One problem was finding ignition coils that had all four terminals seperated. Interest, yes, activity, not at the moment. Bruce > I've spent a few hours looking through SOME of the archived > references to the ION project. I could not see any significant > reference to ION in 1999. In fact most of the interesting > information came from 1995! So... > > 1. I's there still interested in ION? > > 2. Did anyone decode and post a schematic > of the SAAB ION sensor PCB (with the quad > comparator)? > > 3. How can I get hold of SAE950003 & 4? Anyone > got the essence of these articles in print > (or are the original articles available > somewhere via FTP)? > > I'm really interested in this project but the most I've seen is > patent 4,648,367, (and I'm trying to look at some of the others > but does http://www.patents.ibm.com/ ever actually work for more > than about 10 minutes at a time?). > > -- > Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au > Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 > From cwagner at info2000.net Fri May 14 16:31:41 1999 From: cwagner at info2000.net (cwagner at info2000.net) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:31:41 -0400 Subject: schematics Message-ID: I have been wanting to convert my Toyota to port injection from throttle body injection for a while now and have an idea what I need to do. My problem is I have the files to make the driver boards from the efi332 site but no program to view them. What program will I need to get to view these files? Or does anybody have a better for a driver for injectors? From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 14 17:09:31 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 13:09:31 -0400 Subject: Bored Message-ID: > Oh well, off to my unsavory computer store - FUCK Fanglers What the hell are you talking about Bob? -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca Fri May 14 18:30:37 1999 From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:30:37 -0400 Subject: Honda Message-ID: Howday all I have just acquired a beater of a Honda civic. 84 to be exact The thing weighs about 1900 lbs.. which leads to speculation. Can someone aim me to a list that shows swaps and info on what honda engine fits what transmission. Ie to start I would like to use the tranny in there already and yes I know it won't last long.. Also how does a Civic handle under boost. Is there a bad case of torgue steer like dodges?? :peter From serg76 at mail.utexas.edu Fri May 14 20:19:48 1999 From: serg76 at mail.utexas.edu (Sergio Ivan Ornelas) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:19:48 -0400 Subject: Honda Message-ID: Check out http://hybrid.honda-perf.org You can put an 87 integra engine in their or a first generation zc, both bolt in. As far as boost is concerned don't do it, hondas are open deck and can't handle that much pressure. People have turboed out older hondas but I wouldn't recommend it. Also check out http://www.hasport.com talk to Brian, last I heard he was developing a bolt in kit for 3gen civics to put in newer Bseries engines. Peter Fenske wrote: > Howday all > > I have just acquired a beater of a Honda civic. 84 to be exact > The thing weighs about 1900 lbs.. which leads to speculation. > > Can someone aim me to a list that shows swaps and info > on what honda engine fits what transmission. Ie to start I > would like to use the tranny in there already and yes I know > it won't last long.. > > Also how does a Civic handle under boost. > Is there a bad case of torgue steer like dodges?? > > :peter From bearbvd at sni.net Fri May 14 20:34:29 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 16:34:29 -0400 Subject: Bored Message-ID: >> Oh well, off to my unsavory computer store - FUCK Fanglers > >What the hell are you talking about Bob? He's gone off the deep end--got singed into incomprehensibility by the backfire from one of his own incredible flames, after everybody else learned not to respond to him, is what I fear has happened to him, Fred! Greg > > >-- > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport CT 06606 > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy >1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos >2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Fri May 14 21:38:42 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:38:42 -0400 Subject: Honda Message-ID: At 03:20 PM 5/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >Check out http://hybrid.honda-perf.org >You can put an 87 integra engine in their or a first generation zc, both >bolt in. As far as boost is concerned don't do it, hondas are open deck >and can't handle that much pressure. People have turboed out older >hondas but I wouldn't recommend it. Also check out >http://www.hasport.com talk to Brian, last I heard he was developing a >bolt in kit for 3gen civics to put in newer Bseries engines. > Unless you want to get wild and weld in a block brace thatv fills that open area on the deck surface. Try JG...I don't have a URL for them or anything but they put out some serious power by filling the top of the block and replacing the cylinder plating with good old iron liners. Apparently the stock F1 technology stuff will crack under minimal flex, such as high-boost apps. Damn...and I thought F1 technology was always better for street use! :-) Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From falconer at wiredev.asu.edu Fri May 14 21:52:38 1999 From: falconer at wiredev.asu.edu (Adrian Teo) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 17:52:38 -0400 Subject: Honda Message-ID: On May 14, 14:38, Aaron Willis wrote: > Unless you want to get wild and weld in a block brace thatv fills that > open area on the deck surface. Try JG...I don't have a URL for them or > anything but they put out some serious power by filling the top of the > block and replacing the cylinder plating with good old iron liners. Still not a god ideas as the "block guards" form hotspots which lead to more damage. > Damn...and I thought F1 technology was always better for street use! :-) hee hee... that's why F1 cars are not turbo'ed nowadays. -AT -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Adrian Teo e-mail: adrian.teo at asu.edu System Administator Instruction Support, Arizona State University Ph: 602.965.6740 http://hybrid.honda-perf.org Fx: 602.965.2724 Pg:602.204.1831 e-page: adrian at falcon.asu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 14 22:02:00 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:02:00 -0400 Subject: Bored Message-ID: > learned not to respond to him, is what I fear has happened to him, Fred! Oh, now I see said the blind man. From afgun at mongoose.dearborn.sgi.com Fri May 14 22:07:24 1999 From: afgun at mongoose.dearborn.sgi.com (Andrew F. Gunnesch) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:07:24 -0400 Subject: need calpack for '165 ECM Message-ID: If anyone goes junkyarding, etc... this weekend, please pick me up 2 spare calpacks for a '165 ECM. I'll reimburse you. --andrew From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 14 22:10:42 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:10:42 -0400 Subject: Bored Message-ID: At 06:00 PM 5/14/99 -0400, you wrote: >> learned not to respond to him, is what I fear has happened to him, Fred! > >Oh, now I see said the blind man. to his deaf wife as she heard the doorbell ring =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From kv at us.ibm.com Fri May 14 22:40:03 1999 From: kv at us.ibm.com (kv at us.ibm.com) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:40:03 -0400 Subject: 700R4 and Gear Ratios etc... (request for off-list contact) Message-ID: Anyone who is running a GM with 35" tires and a 700R4 tranny- please contact me off-list if you wouldn't mind discussing gear ratios with me. Thanks!! ________________________________________________ Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv at us.ibm.com From mwichstr at online.no Fri May 14 23:14:00 1999 From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 19:14:00 -0400 Subject: in cylinder pressure measurement(Soft Head) Message-ID: Thanks Frank for interesting articles! Couldnt stop reading... 860hp out of a 498cubic inch engine ,790ft-lbs torque,0.347 brake specific ..819deg.F exhaust temp.Running 16,2compression ratio . with 18: 1 air fuel ratio Is a BRAVE thing to do! Is NASCAR using this lean burn engines to day? Espen > In cylinder pressure measurement would be tremendously useful, as > is with any data you can acquire with data acq. Oh yeah a while back > I asked people if they've read articles about the Soft Head. I have > those articles scanned now: > > http://www.theoldone.com/articles > > -- > Frank M. Lin | http://www.g-speed.com/pbh Honda related tech files > frank at kens.com | http://www.g-speed.com/pbh/fastest drag registry > Field Electronics, Z.Speed, NASA, skunkworks http://www.g-speed.com > The T.O.O. Archive, Endyn - Energy Dynamics http://www.TheOldOne.com From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Fri May 14 23:19:41 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 19:19:41 -0400 Subject: Honda Message-ID: At 03:54 PM 5/14/99 -0700, you wrote: >Still not a god ideas as the "block guards" form hotspots which lead to more >damage. > >> Damn...and I thought F1 technology was always better for street use! > :-) > >hee hee... that's why F1 cars are not turbo'ed nowadays. Huh, I figured it was regulated out, instead of no longer effective. It sure is popular for drag Hondas though!! Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From bearbvd at sni.net Sat May 15 00:03:41 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 20:03:41 -0400 Subject: Rosie, K-Mart, Guns, & EFI Message-ID: Fellow DIYer's-- >From another list-- Rosie O'Donnell's commented: "I don't care if you think it's your right. I say: Sorry, it's 1999. We have had enough as a nation. You are not allowed to own a gun, and if you do own a gun I think you should go to prison. " -- Talk-show host and Kmart spokesperson, Rosie O'Donnell You should read Claire Wolfe's rejoinder at http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_cwolfe/19990513_xccwo_so_rosie_y.shtml ------------------ I , speaking as an American citizen, and a potential juror, believe that Rosie's statement might well be treasonous! And, as a responsible citizen, I know the nature of the penalties which our Constitution enumerates as being appropriate for the crime of Treason! I have already called the K-Mart customer service 800 line, which is listed at the url above, and informed them, quite politely, that neither I, nor any members of my family, nor any others whom I can persuade to do so based on Rosie's, in my opinion treasonous, statements will be buying ANYTHING AT ALL from K-Mart until such time as they fire Rosie, and repudiate any association with her statements in the firmest possible manner. I am also about to call the Denver TV station which airs Rosie to inform them that I will be boycotting all products advertised on ANY of their shows that I happen to watch until such time as they stop airing Rosie's show on their station! Required EFI content: If you do not think that such blatantly fascist, Nazi tactics could also be used to outlaw the possession or use of high performance, EFI automobiles, or to regulate or restrict recreational pastimes, all in the name of the greater public good, think again! Please act according to your own conscience on this one, and apologies for using the bandwidth, but I have a feeling that there are a lot of us here who, as I do, value liberty, and its preservation far more than personal safety. I believe that it is well past time to demonstrate to those who think otherwise that those of us who feel that way represent a very "high level demographic" in the consuming, money spending public! Thanks for your time! Regards, Greg "Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube" -Hunter S. Thompson "'Necessity' is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt, 1783 From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Sat May 15 00:47:13 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 20:47:13 -0400 Subject: OBD_II You asked for experiences Message-ID: > With all this talk about OBD-II going on. FYI, I'm in the middle of > developing a > tool which will allow you to dump and then re-program an OBD-I PCM. I'm > working > with a 95 Camaro PCM. I am curious how many others out there are > working > on doing this for an OBD-II PCM. > > Once my program is together, I'll let everyone know, and post it on my > web page. > I have a 96 C-3500 Vortech truck available ocassionally, I got one of the first Hypotechs, but never have used it. I hooked it to a simulator a few years ago, and did not seem to get any OBD line data so probably uses another serial pin. Since H-D truck the label says Fed. OBD not OBD2. When snapped to a snapped-on data has a J1850 data stream and a serial stream. Also this is a multi node OBD bus and I pick up various J2178-4 messages. some have limited ability to modify instruments, door locks., trans, brakes etc. Alex From wilman at hkabc.net Sat May 15 01:10:18 1999 From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:10:18 -0400 Subject: Honda Message-ID: ---------- > From: Peter Fenske > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Honda > Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 2:20 AM > > > > Howday all > > I have just acquired a beater of a Honda civic. 84 to be exact > The thing weighs about 1900 lbs.. which leads to speculation. > > Can someone aim me to a list that shows swaps and info > on what honda engine fits what transmission. Ie to start I > would like to use the tranny in there already and yes I know > it won't last long.. > > Also how does a Civic handle under boost. > Is there a bad case of torgue steer like dodges?? > > :peter > > Please try hybrid.honda-perf.org . From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Sat May 15 02:46:14 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 22:46:14 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: There was a rumor on IATN web forum that EPA was going to require all manuf. post there codes on the web to provide the ability for independent techs. to service and reprogram. Proposed ruling this summer. The Clean Air Act does require mauf. to release all diagnostic data, which currently the bare minimum in manuals. alex > I'd imagine that there are some aftermarket folks that can change any > parameter they want. All, it takes is time, and money. > I've even heard rumors, of a gm document being leaked out.. > So far thou, little has been public domained, since it is so new, and not > many people are working on it yet. > As time passes, I'm sure more will come to light. > How they are handling DTCs so far is anyone's quess > Bruce > > > And are these 'specialists' able to do much with them? I know that GM > > won't give up the source (over 1000 pages I hear) even to the specialists. > > Faking out the sensors is MUCH more difficult with OBD-II, since each > > sensor reading is independantly verified by some other method. Are these > > 'specialists' bypassing the OBD-II requirements making the vehicles > > non-compliant? Or have they made the huge investment in reverse > > engineering the code? Any ideas here would be appreciated. > > > bs > >> What do the guys with new cars do when > > >> they hot-rod them? Stop participating in the program? > > > > > >Most so far have had to send them to folks that specialize in them. > > >Bruce > > > > > > > > > From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Sat May 15 02:46:15 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 22:46:15 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: These have been around since 1910 ? after muffler invented, probably the first performance device made. Also one of the first devices to be outlawed. Peak popularity 30's -50's ? standard equip. on some cars? Commonly known as a cut out. You will get more power if you cut out the muffler, also have seen lower emissions. The honey comb cat is a laminar flow element and you get a very turbo sound. The only problem if running rich for long periods and backfires, you might spit out pieces of the cat or the substrate could seperate. Alex > At 04:10 PM 5/13/99 -0300, you wrote: > >I saw an exhaust diverter valve in the J C Whitney catalog which will allow > >you to do just what you are suggesting. The device is controlled by a > >mechanical cable. > >Tom Butler > > > > > The racing version of the 3rd generation Fbody had a Y that went to the > side of the car and had a bolt on cap with a gasket for street use. Could > be rare to find but simmilar setup may be available for the current cars. > Could be built also and dont know what smog cops will think. > > Todd Israels > > > > From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Sat May 15 03:37:05 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 23:37:05 -0400 Subject: Bored - oops Message-ID: Silly me let mickey shitware sent a private message publicly. Apologizes where deserved. I am getting somewhat edgy that few people enter into discussion - counter discussion about some things I post. I have been known to be full of horse pucky more often than not. And I have learned a lot by having it pounded in publicly. It would be very bad for my ego if people started accepting me as being mostly right. And sometimes, I am a little crankier and "nastier" than I need or want to be - but that's both the bane and the privilege of approaching senility and I can always claim I didn't take my pills and sort of forgot. And anyone that has habaneras with wheaties and keeps asbestos pantie liners around can't be all sane. The other comment was about another time place and subject and has nothing to do with this list. Again - my apologies to EVERYONE - no exceptions - for allowing the private post public. From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Sat May 15 04:21:07 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:21:07 -0400 Subject: Rosie, K-Mart, Guns, & EFI Message-ID: Isn't this (a bit) OFF TOPIC? I'm sure there's a place to discuss it, but it's not here.... Greg Hermann wrote: > > Fellow DIYer's-- > > >From another list-- > > Rosie O'Donnell's commented: -- Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 15 04:30:23 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:30:23 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for what they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. Has any one run any endurance tests?. Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. Bruce From JCsDOOR at aol.com Sat May 15 04:39:29 1999 From: JCsDOOR at aol.com (JCsDOOR at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:39:29 -0400 Subject: "ION" information - current status? Message-ID: Greg if you live in co. I have 4 or 5 saab di ing. if you want one or two. Jim crance co. springs From JCsDOOR at aol.com Sat May 15 04:44:14 1999 From: JCsDOOR at aol.com (JCsDOOR at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:44:14 -0400 Subject: "ION" information - current status? Message-ID: Bruce If you pull the cover off a Saab di you will find 4 coils that unplug and can be used for other apps. Jim crance Ps I still have my cone hat From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Sat May 15 04:56:52 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 00:56:52 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: here's a thought, has anyone ever given any thought to painting the inside of an engine ? before you hit delete, consider how easy it is for dirt etc to stick to the inside of the block, under a microscope the surface must be like velcro. I suspect oil would return a little quicker to the pan. just a thought, you can flame me now. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp at bright.net] Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 9:31 PM To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for what they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. Has any one run any endurance tests?. Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. Bruce From JCsDOOR at aol.com Sat May 15 05:43:56 1999 From: JCsDOOR at aol.com (JCsDOOR at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 01:43:56 -0400 Subject: "ION" information - current status? Message-ID: Well, it has been a while after the flame war gar has goon his way, and my life went to hell for a while. A new WD 6gig hard drive almost got the best of me. IT would change the spelling of the fat files, about every 2 months or so. I got a new pII mother bord, I thought every thing was ok.HA!HA! lost every thing again. To make a long story short WD wont talk to me because I do not have a recite . WD sucks!!!!!!! . Gar was interested in using ion for aircraft Eng. I wanted to us for small block chev. I believe I found a way to make it work with stock hei. After the flame wars ii am somewhat hesitant to work on it again.Btw what the hell,Ill give it a try. I am a Saab Tech so I cant always get right back. Remember All It is, is 400v on the tip of the plug when cycl fires The 400 volts goes to ground. Each plug has its own operating system. Its late so this doesn't make much sence Jim Crance From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Sat May 15 06:21:06 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 02:21:06 -0400 Subject: SAAB DI coils - was Re: "ION" information ... Message-ID: So, is this the same DI system with the ION sense circuitry? If so, has anyone published the actual schematic for one of these units? JCsDOOR at aol.com wrote: > If you pull the cover off a Saab di you will find 4 coils that > unplug and can be used for other apps. > Jim crance > Ps I still have my cone hat -- Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Sat May 15 08:34:52 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 04:34:52 -0400 Subject: FYI - Patent 5704321 - Traveling spark ignition system Message-ID: I've been searching the patent acrhives (at least they provide free information, unlike the SAE's $10/article charge, and they only have the last 18 months, or so, on-line [AND you have to print it out too]) So, I found this (forget sparks, PLASMA is the way to go, dont work about lean mixtures either!) ! US patent 05704321 abstract: ! ! A plasma injector for an internal combustion engine, in one embodiment, ! includes two spaced apart and parallel donut shaped disk electrodes, ! between which a horizontally outward moving plasma is formed via a high ! voltage applied across the electrodes. The present invention is ! characterized by its efficient use of input electrical energy via electronic ! circuitry for driving the plasma injector. An ignition source provides an ! ignition plasma kernel which is several orders of magnitude larger than ! that produced by conventional spark plugs. Use of very lean combustible ! mixtures, in which the dilution of the mixture is achieved by use of exhaust ! gas recirculation, is made possible by the present ignition system. ! Considerable improvement in engine efficiency, and a major reduction in ! NOx exhaust gas pollutants are obtained via the present ignition. Here's the actual patent: http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05704321__ -- Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au http://www.techedge.com.au/teinfo.htm Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com Sat May 15 09:32:18 1999 From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 05:32:18 -0400 Subject: Bored - oops Message-ID: Sorry Bob and everyone,,,, I too, sit out here and listen.......shit, when we argue we at least learn something....we all know we're not the "all knowing" We've all seen the posts we ignore because we "feel" it's above us....every single person here that has commented in the past few months has had some great things to offer.....and I for one have not given as much as I can to the group...but as time permits I will.....I enjoy this group and don't want to see it fall away to the narcissism.........sorry to bug. -Carl Summers In a message dated 99-05-14 23:40:08 EDT, you write: << Subj: Bored - oops Date: 99-05-14 23:40:08 EDT From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Sender: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Silly me let mickey shitware sent a private message publicly. Apologizes where deserved. I am getting somewhat edgy that few people enter into discussion - counter discussion about some things I post. I have been known to be full of horse pucky more often than not. And I have learned a lot by having it pounded in publicly. It would be very bad for my ego if people started accepting me as being mostly right. And sometimes, I am a little crankier and "nastier" than I need or want to be - but that's both the bane and the privilege of approaching senility and I can always claim I didn't take my pills and sort of forgot. And anyone that has habaneras with wheaties and keeps asbestos pantie liners around can't be all sane. The other comment was about another time place and subject and has nothing to do with this list. Again - my apologies to EVERYONE - no exceptions - for allowing the private post public. >> From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com Sat May 15 09:35:38 1999 From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 05:35:38 -0400 Subject: Rosie, K-Mart, Guns, & EFI Message-ID: Hi Greg,,,Hi all, In a message dated 99-05-14 20:07:23 EDT, you write: << Subj: Rosie, K-Mart, Guns, & EFI Date: 99-05-14 20:07:23 EDT From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Sender: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Fellow DIYer's-- From another list-- Rosie O'Donnell's commented: "I don't care if you think it's your right. I say: Sorry, it's 1999. We have had enough as a nation. You are not allowed to own a gun, and if you do own a gun I think you should go to prison. " -- Talk-show host and Kmart spokesperson, Rosie O'Donnell You should read Claire Wolfe's rejoinder at http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_cwolfe/19990513_xccwo_so_rosie_y.shtml ------------------ >> From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com Sat May 15 09:54:24 1999 From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 05:54:24 -0400 Subject: Rosie, K-Mart, Guns, & EFI Message-ID: Hi Greg,,,Hi all, It's such a sad statement coming from one of our leaders...(right!!!!!!..........it makes me sick).......I had someone talk with me the other day about how Japan doesn't have gun problems becuase if you buy a gun the barrel is plugged and a sword is cut short for the general public,,,,,,,,,does it stop the unnecessary death???? NO, because it is well known it is easy to stop a life.....it is not an honorable thing,,,,here it it glamorous,,,I try to teach Honor but with young children it is a hard concept to distiguish between, .....I feel sorry for people like Rosie,,,,she just doesn't get it.......and I'm sorry to get off the EFI subject but alot of us have kids and we all have a pretty good idea of how we feel.............I don't talk as much as I should with my neighbors but I bet we all could talk about alot of stuff even if we don't agree............ttyl -Carl Summers In a message dated 99-05-14 20:07:23 EDT, you write: << Subj: Rosie, K-Mart, Guns, & EFI Date: 99-05-14 20:07:23 EDT From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Sender: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Fellow DIYer's-- From another list-- Rosie O'Donnell's commented: "I don't care if you think it's your right. I say: Sorry, it's 1999. We have had enough as a nation. You are not allowed to own a gun, and if you do own a gun I think you should go to prison. " -- Talk-show host and Kmart spokesperson, Rosie O'Donnell You should read Claire Wolfe's rejoinder at http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_cwolfe/19990513_xccwo_so_rosie_y.shtml ------------------ >> From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 15 11:15:46 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 07:15:46 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: Glyptal is an epoxy paint used in electric motors and is mentioned in several engine books I have. Makes interior of block pretty red color. Shannen Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > here's a thought, has anyone ever given any thought to painting the inside > of an engine ? before you hit delete, consider how easy it is for dirt etc > to stick to the inside of the block, under a microscope the surface must be > like velcro. I suspect oil would return a little quicker to the pan. just a > thought, you can flame me now. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp at bright.net] > Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 9:31 PM > To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings > > Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for what > they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. > Has any one run any endurance tests?. > Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. > Bruce From jseabolt at intermediatn.net Sat May 15 12:07:21 1999 From: jseabolt at intermediatn.net (James Seabolt) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 08:07:21 -0400 Subject: Yet another O2 sensor fakeout trick Message-ID: Thinking about trying yet another trick. I just can't leave this one thing alone. I would really like to get rid of my 5th injector. The fuel line is touching several items on the motor and I am afraid it might chap and spring a leak. Also it doesn't look very professional anyway. And the fact I am sure the injectors will provide enough fuel if I could just boost the pulse rate up a bit. Here's my plan. Since my pressure switch has three poles, I can wire it up with a resistor in parallel. When I hit the boost zone, the O2 sensor's output which is either .8 volts or .9 volts, however if I place a resistor between this circuit which brings the voltage down to .1 volts the computer will think the engine is running lean and increase the pulse rate trying to catch up. The trick will be to find the right resistance to create such a voltage drop. I know there is a formula somewhere. What size resistor do I need to drop the voltage from .9 to .1 volts? I am also assuming if I need a little more fuel, I can increase the resistance some more. ---------------------------------------------------------- James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ ICQ # : 7344463 United States 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) ---------------------------------------------------------- From KD6JDJ at aol.com Sat May 15 12:32:02 1999 From: KD6JDJ at aol.com (KD6JDJ at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 08:32:02 -0400 Subject: Yet another O2 sensor fakeout trick Message-ID: >Thinking about trying yet another trick. I just can't leave this one thing >alone. I would really like to get rid of my 5th injector. The fuel line is >touching several items on the motor and I am afraid it might chap and >spring a leak. Also it doesn't look very professional anyway. And the fact I> am sure the injectors will provide enough fuel if I could just boost the >pulse rate up a bit. >Here's my plan. >Since my pressure switch has three poles, I can wire it up with a resistor >in parallel. >When I hit the boost zone, the O2 sensor's output which is either .8 volts >or .9 volts, however if I place a resistor between this circuit which >brings the voltage down to .1 volts the computer will think the engine is >running lean and increase the pulse rate trying to catch up. >The trick will be to find the right resistance to create such a voltage drop. >I know there is a formula somewhere. What size resistor do I need to drop >the voltage from .9 to .1 volts? >I am also assuming if I need a little more fuel, I can increase the >resistance some more. James I'm no wizard in solid state , but I know that almost all silicon diodes have a forward voltage drop of about 3/4 volt. So, if you put one in series with a circuit drawing current, it will "drop" that voltage. That way you wont need to contend with the voltage divider, which will be current dependent. Jerry From bearbvd at sni.net Sat May 15 12:43:30 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 08:43:30 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: >Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for what >they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. > Has any one run any endurance tests?. >Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. >Bruce A fellow I spoke with at HPC told me that they ran a dyno test of a fairly typical hipo 350 CID Chebby first with no coatings, then with coating only on the piston crowns. Said that--with no other changes, the steady state oil temperature at sustained full load dropped 15 degrees F. Greg From sk8er at netmost.com Sat May 15 14:04:54 1999 From: sk8er at netmost.com (EK) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:04:54 -0400 Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Bill Shaw To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 1:28 PM Subject: Modifying OBD-II systems I have had mixed results with a "OBD1 compliant" flashed based VCM used in a 1995 S-10 with a "W" CPI V6. Standard scan tool ALDL does not appear to work with it. I have tried one of the new B&B electronics AutoTap units, and it will not talk at all. The Autotap does work on newer GM stuff. I talked to one of the guys at B&B, and they are supposed to have new software out for the AutoTap within a couple months that will support my particular VCM. I have also talked to the guys at ACCEL about their powertap, and that device is not compatible with my unit, nor are they interested in making one that is. I pried the VCM case open to take a quick look, but did not have time to take any useful data. Remember seeing 2 separate PCBs, 2 wide SO flash -looking devices, and a 132 lead pqfp processor, with Motorola type markings- guessing a 68332 derivative. I was able to successfully fake out the cat O2 sensor by sending the VCM a constant bias voltage of .766V For actual operating monitoring, I hooked the 2 O2 sensors to a 2 channel DSO scope, and monitored the cat 02 changes, from .68V to .9V operating in ranges of idle to WFO. Idle voltage stayed very close to .70V. The fake Bias voltage is picked off from TPS reference voltage and divided down with a 10 turn 50K pot to .766V. I connected the ground from the oxy sensor to VCM to a local ground, as I believe the oxy sensor ground is used to cancel any thermoelectric voltage, which you probably don't want to add in this case. This setup has been OK with no MIL for about 9 months thru both hot summer and mild winter temps. Have had other problems recently, believe Sticking EGR that turned on MIL, but lightly "tapping" EGR valve turned MIL off after 3 driving cycles. GM Shop manual is very helpful, stating typical limits before trouble codes set. At this point in time, at least for me, I am not sure if it is more practical to fake out sensors, replace VCM with easily hackable computer, or wait for someone to come up with a reasonable cost OBD flash reprogramming tool. Eric From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Sat May 15 14:21:10 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:21:10 -0400 Subject: FYI - Patent 5704321 - Traveling spark ignition system Message-ID: how do you search the patent archives ? -----Original Message----- From: Peter Gargano [mailto:peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au] Sent: Saturday, May 15, 1999 1:37 AM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: FYI - Patent 5704321 - Traveling spark ignition system I've been searching the patent acrhives (at least they provide free information, unlike the SAE's $10/article charge, and they only have the last 18 months, or so, on-line [AND you have to print it out too]) So, I found this (forget sparks, PLASMA is the way to go, dont work about lean mixtures either!) ! US patent 05704321 abstract: ! ! A plasma injector for an internal combustion engine, in one embodiment, ! includes two spaced apart and parallel donut shaped disk electrodes, ! between which a horizontally outward moving plasma is formed via a high ! voltage applied across the electrodes. The present invention is ! characterized by its efficient use of input electrical energy via electronic ! circuitry for driving the plasma injector. An ignition source provides an ! ignition plasma kernel which is several orders of magnitude larger than ! that produced by conventional spark plugs. Use of very lean combustible ! mixtures, in which the dilution of the mixture is achieved by use of exhaust ! gas recirculation, is made possible by the present ignition system. ! Considerable improvement in engine efficiency, and a major reduction in ! NOx exhaust gas pollutants are obtained via the present ignition. Here's the actual patent: http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05704321__ -- Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au http://www.techedge.com.au/teinfo.htm Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 From gderian at oh.verio.com Sat May 15 14:27:44 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:27:44 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: Adding backpressure just for the sake of it won't improve low speed torque. Having small diameter ports which happen to add backpressure will. Its not the backpressure that improves torque. Its the low rpm tuned components that do. Now, having a variable restrictor that quiets the car when cruising is a good idea. The new Nissan Maxima has such a muffler. Mitsubishi 3000's have had them in the past. Gary Derian > Ord Miller wrote: > > >I use high flow cats. For the 1 or 2 HP difference, I really don't think > >it's worth the risk of legal problems or injuring my environmental > >consience. ;) > > >On the other hand, I am wondering if I could improve low rpm torque if I > >could add a variable restrictor?? > From gderian at oh.verio.com Sat May 15 14:27:45 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 10:27:45 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: You won't see all 56 deg. while driving. It is a lot but will only occur at max vacuum and rpm above the full advance rpm. Gary Derian > > The Manual calls for 38 degrees total mechanical advance and lik 56 > degrees advance with the vacuum hooked up... > > Does this sound right to ya'll? > > Seems a tad bit much to me! > > Thanks again! > > Really appreciate the help! > > LATER! > > Todd....!! From hobiegary at earthlink.net Sat May 15 16:28:58 1999 From: hobiegary at earthlink.net (GARY) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:28:58 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: 1) Gary, can you elaborate on how that muffler varies? Gary Derian wrote: > > Adding backpressure just for the sake of it won't improve low speed torque. > Having small diameter ports which happen to add backpressure will. Its not > the backpressure that improves torque. Its the low rpm tuned components > that do. Now, having a variable restrictor that quiets the car when > cruising is a good idea. The new Nissan Maxima has such a muffler. > Mitsubishi 3000's have had them in the past. > > Gary Derian > > > Ord Miller wrote: > > > > >I use high flow cats. For the 1 or 2 HP difference, I really don't think > > >it's worth the risk of legal problems or injuring my environmental > > >consience. ;) > > > > >On the other hand, I am wondering if I could improve low rpm torque if I > > >could add a variable restrictor?? > > 2) On the same note, I am under the impression that the length of the intake tract (air cleaner ducting plus manifold) is instrumental in tuned intake. I vaguely understand the principal, something to do with the length of the wave at a given frequency of intake suck and how that length is resembled in the intake tract. So as I understand it, an intake is tuned to a specific rpm (and multiples and fractionals of same rpm or frequency) by the length of the intake tract. This puts the harmonic frequency of the tract at the same frequency of the the resonance of the air flow. I am not really considering volume, just length. I'll get on to my question, but I need to know if I am correct so far. If I intervene in that tract by adding a duct (ram air) in a wye configuration, will I be changing the tune. I guess I would but I somehow think that if I "wye in" rather than replace I will be conserving some of the characteristics that I would have eliminated if I cut off the existing tract. 3) I am trying to decide the best way to dampen the signal from my Knock Sensor (the Subaru). The resistance of the KS is 520K ohm. The ECU appears to be sending about two to three volts D.C. to the Knock Sensor, but I don't know if that remains constant throughout operation. What do you guys think of a first resistor in series to dampen output along with a second resistor paralleling the seriesed KS and first resistor to make the overall resistance/impedance 520K ohm? or using a diode to allow the D.C. monitor current to pass while offering resistance to the KS generated signal. I thing a diode would filter the KS A.C. signal into D.C. and cause a problem. Any other ideas? Thank you for your attention folks! -- GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net From romans at pacbell.net Sat May 15 16:38:26 1999 From: romans at pacbell.net (Mark Romans) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:38:26 -0400 Subject: Yet another O2 sensor fakeout trick Message-ID: Hi James: With a GM ecm (Unless it is some strange app) the ecm ignores the 02 sensor when at more than 70% throttle anyway. It goes into PE (Power Enrichment) and goes to a richer commanded afr. So making the 02 "Read" lean won't change the pw. Mark -----Original Message----- From: James Seabolt To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 5:09 AM Subject: Yet another O2 sensor fakeout trick >Thinking about trying yet another trick. I just can't leave this one thing >alone. I would really like to get rid of my 5th injector. The fuel line is >touching several items on the motor and I am afraid it might chap and >spring a leak. Also it doesn't look very professional anyway. And the fact >I am sure the injectors will provide enough fuel if I could just boost the >pulse rate up a bit. > >Here's my plan. > >Since my pressure switch has three poles, I can wire it up with a resistor >in parallel. > >When I hit the boost zone, the O2 sensor's output which is either .8 volts >or .9 volts, however if I place a resistor between this circuit which >brings the voltage down to .1 volts the computer will think the engine is >running lean and increase the pulse rate trying to catch up. > >The trick will be to find the right resistance to create such a voltage drop. > >I know there is a formula somewhere. What size resistor do I need to drop >the voltage from .9 to .1 volts? > >I am also assuming if I need a little more fuel, I can increase the >resistance some more. > > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net >Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ >ICQ # : 7344463 > >United States > >1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) >1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) >1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) >1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) >1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) > >---------------------------------------------------------- > From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sat May 15 16:55:38 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:55:38 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: On Fri, 14 May 1999, Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > here's a thought, has anyone ever given any thought to painting the inside > of an engine ? before you hit delete, consider how easy it is for dirt etc > to stick to the inside of the block, under a microscope the surface must be > like velcro. I suspect oil would return a little quicker to the pan. just a > thought, you can flame me now. > Most people use Glyptol for this... From garfield at cyberlynk.com Sat May 15 17:46:11 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:46:11 -0400 Subject: I'm BACK...but NOW as a VENDOR Message-ID: Hey maties, (and the rest of the diy resident "stoidi") Garfield here, reporting in from the Black Forest. Me & the elves have been working on some WORDS you might have heard in the past: EGOR & ION. Now that we're FINALLY moving into our new corp. facilities, I've just re-enlisted to begin the rollout of some products we'll be offering relating to these two probly long-lost threads. To wit: EGOR-the-module EGOR-the-meter IONeyes EGOR-the-module is the interface between a Honda/NTK 5-wire current-pump UEGO2 sensor (has also been tested on the new Toyota 4-wire current-pump sensor, but those are still toooo spendy), and EGOR-the-meter is a Precision AFRmeter built around same. IONeyes is of course that slinky technology (but now with a new design that's non-infringing on the SAAB patents :) for measuring pre/post-IGN ionization, for use in accurate misfire & detonation detection, as well as potentially in the future (nobody appears to have it quite worked out yet for field deployment; we sure don't), measurement of cylinder AFR. Sadly, ION is still only working on the "bench" (a 1.8L boxer), since we've had to concentrate on EGOR first (installing them neck-bolts isn't easy :) and somewhat neglect her, but she IS working quite nicely; she's just in an ungainly underhood mess at the moment. Shortly she'll be all dressed up for her debut; mostly what remains is for her to just get dressed anyway. Packaging is a highly under-appreciated art, ya know. Meanwhile, her stout companion EGOR has become a world traveller, after trips to Tempsylvania, Boostville, and other NAsty places, in order to disprove rumors of his possible inability to handle the rigors of 'travel'. We'll be providing some nice graphs of our test results, to demonstrate his INdependence from these environmental influences. The meter is actually being made by another company (an international mfg. company based near Seattle), and we're being allowed to sell the modules and reference design plans into the hobbyist market (which they are loath to have to deal with), as long as we don't compete with their Proformance precision AFRmeter products. The meter, BTW, is expected to kick major butt in that market, since it's price-point is aimed in the $$hundreds, not the $$thousands of 'competitor' products. Since there are significant differences between the module and the meter, I thot to briefly describe them below: EGOR-the-module works just like an NTK "interface", in that it's outputs are a curve [which is NOT linearized thru stoich, but nearly linear on either side of it; if you've read the NTK SAE paper, you know whadamean]. The meter OTOH hand, will have a fully linearized output, stoich-switching O2 sensor simulation (complete with a trick ECU level/impedance matching ability, to satisfy pretty much any ECU's expectations during cold-start and failure diagnostic tests), a basic datalogging serial output, and on-the-fly AFR tuning capability. There will almost certainly be fancier follow-on models that emphasize the logging features, and alternate fueling support. PLANS for various circuitry you can license on a PERSONAL USE ONLY basis from us (AirSIG), will allow you to layer any number of features on top of your EGOR module, whether you're building instrumentation OR an engine management system. This includes the simulation stuff and the ECU matching circuitry. The module and the plans licenses will be separately priced, and altho the module contains a trick programmable analog part you WON'T be able to clone (just pointing this out to any resident pirates), you WILL be required to sign a non-disclosure and licensing agreement. Those of you who were with us before, know the reason for this, given the public threats made to build EGORs for profit, once the design was handed out freely. Well, as a result of that, it's no longer gonna be freely handed out, but to those of yous guys on the nice side of my naughtyNnice list, it's gonna be next to nuthin anyway, so not-to-worry. If you should damage your EGOR module and need to have it replaced/repaired, I will know from the signature programmed into it, who it's licensed to, so I hope with these measures, we can flip off the pirates and go on our merry way without them. Time will tell. Plans for building ION-based IGN systems will also be offered, once we can work out with our mfg. arm/host what/how they wanna offer their own built products in this area. So it will probly be late this year before that stuff becomes available to hobbyists. Lastly, EGOR-the-module pricing and availability have NOT been set (well, we know what they are, but we're not tellin just yet), since the meter company hasn't announced when nor how much $$ THEIR product will actually roll out (I expect it will be late 2nd quarter, or early 3rd), and WE have just begun the move, so it will probly realistically be another month or two before we can start selling the modulesNplans to ya. But she's FINALLY comin around the mountain. Meanwhile, I'll monitor the list for any technical questions and feature suggestions you might want me to pass along to the Precision AFRmeter mfg. I'd also like to hear any discussion about what sorts of circuitry PLANS y'all might think would be needed (and priorities, please) to layer on the hobbyist type features. Oh, and BTW, I'm STILL having to use those pricey Mitsubishi coils for the ION proto, so the quest is still very much on for less expensive 4-terminal IGN coils. If anyone's run across other candidates during the hiatus, do lemme know. On a completely unrelated front (well, sorta), our eXperimental aircraft corp. has had a fully functional KISS EFI (555-type based) S-D system upNrunning for over a year, which we refer to as KEFI, awaiting the move into our new facilities, to allow offering those to the eXperimental Aviation crowd. License-able PLANS for that system, which includes a programmable-slope linear advance curve for a companion DIS IGN system we call KIGN (for KISS IGN, of course) will shortly be available. All it takes to use it on boosted setups is one CAL resistor change, and a diff. MAP sensor. ALL the parts are off-the-shelf or low-cost OEM. Be happy to discuss that system with ya as well. Garfield Willis (*friends* call me Gar) AirSIG, Inc. Castle AFB/Airport 2810 Propeller Place Atwater, CA 95301 209-385-9760 From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 15 17:54:02 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:54:02 -0400 Subject: SAAB DI coils - was Re: "ION" information ... Message-ID: The patent 4862093 has a schematic will it Grumpy > So, is this the same DI system with the ION sense circuitry? > If so, has anyone published the actual schematic for one of > these units? > > JCsDOOR at aol.com wrote: > > > If you pull the cover off a Saab di you will find 4 coils that > > unplug and can be used for other apps. > > Jim crance > > Ps I still have my cone hat > > -- > Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au > Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 > From mail at darkstar.mv.com Sat May 15 18:15:58 1999 From: mail at darkstar.mv.com (Peter D. Hipson) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 14:15:58 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: And when the paint all flakes off, and ends up in the oil pan... At 09:55 PM 5/14/99 -0700, you wrote: >here's a thought, has anyone ever given any thought to painting the inside >of an engine ? before you hit delete, consider how easy it is for dirt etc >to stick to the inside of the block, under a microscope the surface must be >like velcro. I suspect oil would return a little quicker to the pan. just a >thought, you can flame me now. > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon From daholtz at axionet.com Sat May 15 19:00:30 1999 From: daholtz at axionet.com (Don Holtz) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:00:30 -0400 Subject: Yet another O2 sensor fakeout trick Message-ID: Even the voltage drop across a diode is a function of current: i=Io * EXP (-v/Vo) It is true that for forward currents around the designed operating level, most diodes have a voltage drop about .7volts, but this is only a very very crude first approximation. But for a very small forward currents the diode will have a very small voltage drop, certainly much less than .7volts. I suspect that, since the O2 sensor is a high-impedance voltage source, putting a diode in series with it will not cause a nice predictable voltage drop. If you want to test your idea you could try this instead, and use a more refined technique once it all works: Use a 1.5V AA battery, and a high impedance voltage divider: ------------------------------> TO ECM. | 100kohm | 100kohm ---------o---/\/\/\/\--o---/\/\/\/\--o | | | | | | | -------- | | | | | | -------------| |------------- | O2 | + | | - | | | -------- 1.5V (AA) | | GND The 1.5V battery and 100kOhm divider combination create a floating .75volt voltage drop. The polarity of the voltage drop can be changed by reversing the battery connection. The voltage drop that is created has an impedance of 50kOhm which is much lower than the O2 sensore impedance (approx 10Mohm), and the 100kohm resistors will not drain the battery too quickly. Just an idea! Cheers, Don At 08:31 AM 5/15/99 EDT, you wrote: >>Thinking about trying yet another trick. I just can't leave this one thing >>alone. I would really like to get rid of my 5th injector. The fuel line is >>touching several items on the motor and I am afraid it might chap and >>spring a leak. Also it doesn't look very professional anyway. And the fact >I> am sure the injectors will provide enough fuel if I could just boost the >>pulse rate up a bit. > >>Here's my plan. > >>Since my pressure switch has three poles, I can wire it up with a resistor >>in parallel. > >>When I hit the boost zone, the O2 sensor's output which is either .8 volts >>or .9 volts, however if I place a resistor between this circuit which >>brings the voltage down to .1 volts the computer will think the engine is >>running lean and increase the pulse rate trying to catch up. > >>The trick will be to find the right resistance to create such a voltage >drop. > >>I know there is a formula somewhere. What size resistor do I need to drop >>the voltage from .9 to .1 volts? > >>I am also assuming if I need a little more fuel, I can increase the >>resistance some more. > > James > I'm no wizard in solid state , but I know that almost all silicon diodes >have a forward voltage drop of about 3/4 volt. So, if you put one in series >with a circuit drawing current, it will "drop" that voltage. That way you >wont need to contend with the voltage divider, which will be current >dependent. > > Jerry > > From clarencewood at centuryinter.net Sat May 15 19:19:36 1999 From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:19:36 -0400 Subject: Rosie, K-Mart, Guns, & EFI Message-ID: Gosh! I didn't think anything could ruffle Greg's feathers! (:> I agree 100% with your statements! At 06:04 PM 5/14/99 -0600, you wrote: >Fellow DIYer's-- > >>From another list-- > >Rosie O'Donnell's commented: >"I don't care if you think it's your right. I say: Sorry, it's 1999. >We have had enough as a nation. >You are not allowed to own a gun, and if you do own a >gun I think you should go to prison. " >-- Talk-show host and Kmart spokesperson, Rosie O'Donnell > >You should read Claire Wolfe's rejoinder at >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_cwolfe/19990513_xccwo_so_rosie_y.shtml >------------------ >I , speaking as an American citizen, and a potential juror, believe that >Rosie's statement might well be treasonous! And, as a responsible citizen, >I know the nature of the penalties which our Constitution enumerates as >being appropriate for the crime of Treason! > >I have already called the K-Mart customer service 800 line, which is listed >at the url above, and informed them, quite politely, that neither I, nor >any members of my family, nor any others whom I can persuade to do so based >on Rosie's, in my opinion treasonous, statements will be buying ANYTHING AT >ALL from K-Mart until such time as they fire Rosie, and repudiate any >association with her statements in the firmest possible manner. > >I am also about to call the Denver TV station which airs Rosie to inform >them that I will be boycotting all products advertised on ANY of their >shows that I happen to watch until such time as they stop airing Rosie's >show on their station! > >Required EFI content: > >If you do not think that such blatantly fascist, Nazi tactics could also be >used to outlaw the possession or use of high performance, EFI automobiles, >or to regulate or restrict recreational pastimes, all in the name of the >greater public good, think again! > >Please act according to your own conscience on this one, and apologies for >using the bandwidth, but I have a feeling that there are a lot of us here >who, as I do, value liberty, and its preservation far more than personal >safety. I believe that it is well past time to demonstrate to those who >think otherwise that those of us who feel that way represent a very "high >level demographic" in the consuming, money spending public! > >Thanks for your time! > >Regards, Greg > >"Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed >out of a tube" > -Hunter S. Thompson > >"'Necessity' is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is >the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt, 1783 > > > IZCC #3426 1982 280ZX Turbo GL 1966 El Camino 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine) 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower Clarence Wood Software&Such... clarencewood at centuryinter.net Savannah, TN. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Sat May 15 19:30:53 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:30:53 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor fakeouts Message-ID: Greetings, I haven't been keeping up with many of these threads, but I noticed that the O2 fakeout diagrams I've seen posted here still had the O2 sensor... are the purpose of the diagrams to "adjust" the output of the O2 sensor on a live vehicle? Or, are they for testing an ECM on a bench? Because if its the latter, you don't need the sensor obviously, and a 5 or 10 turn 100K pot and a D battery would do the trick nicely. D cell + ----> --\ / 100k 5 or 10 turn pot \ / <------- to o2 sensor wire on ECM \ / D cell - --0--> --\ | | ground Or, have I once again missed the point? From bearbvd at sni.net Sat May 15 19:38:09 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:38:09 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: >Glyptal is an epoxy paint used in electric motors and is mentioned in >several engine books I have. Makes interior of block pretty red >color. >Shannen > >Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: >> >> here's a thought, has anyone ever given any thought to painting the inside >> of an engine ? before you hit delete, consider how easy it is for dirt etc >> to stick to the inside of the block, under a microscope the surface must be >> like velcro. I suspect oil would return a little quicker to the pan. just a >> thought, you can flame me now. POR-15 is also recommended by the mfgr for the inside of blocks. Painting them is wise--condensation does happen in there! Greg From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 15 20:01:42 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:01:42 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: For the lack of anything else to do, I hooked the heated O2 up, and was looking at the voltage drop across a sensor resistor, I been thinking of using. As the heater warmed up, the voltage drop across the resistor changed, just meaning the heater was drawing less current. I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no output, to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just in atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 right, nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. Did I need to load the sensor?. The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully swing high?. Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to reference to?. Grumpy From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sat May 15 20:09:39 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:09:39 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: At 04:02 PM 5/15/99 -0400, you wrote: >For the lack of anything else to do, I hooked the heated O2 up, and was >looking at the voltage drop across a sensor resistor, I been thinking of >using. > As the heater warmed up, the voltage drop across the resistor changed, >just meaning the heater was drawing less current. > I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no output, >to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just in >atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 right, >nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. > Did I need to load the sensor?. > The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully >swing high?. > Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to reference >to?. Bad thing about O2 sensors is they aren't truly O2 sensors... they are HC sensors. In pure O2, the sensor should keep a low voltage. In an environment rich with HC (IE propane, unburnt fuel etc) they should go .9-1 Volt. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 15 20:12:22 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:12:22 -0400 Subject: Injector Firing Voltage Message-ID: I hooked the scope up to a GM ecm running 8 saturated injectors. The normal 12v only appreared rarely. The usual voltage of the injectors firing was 75-100v.. So this flyback/kickback, is a very large issue. This would seem to imply to me, that the stock ecm doesn't clip the voltage by reverse biasing a diode, to contol it, but rather use a scheme, where they deal with it. Maybe clipping these signals has a adverse affect on the injectors opening/closing.. Jus curious, if this makes sense. Grumpy From markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu Sat May 15 21:09:24 1999 From: markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu (Mark Wilcutts) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:09:24 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: This has been done in a labratory environment for at least 50 years. The main manufacturers are Kistler (www.kistler.com) and AVL List (www.avl.co.at). For mounting, either a modified spark plug or cylinder head flush mounting. The sensors are $500-$1500 and require a charge amplifier ($1000). They suffer from drift and thermal shock but are otherwise excellent for combustion analysis. Gross things like misfire and knock are easily noticeable. Recently, in our lab we have been using an optical transducer (www.optrand.com) that measures the deflection of a flush-mounted diphragm remotely with a tiny laser through an optical fiber. These currently cost about $900 and don't need a charge amp. Future indications are that the sensor electronics can be miniturized and the sensor produced at very low cost. One problem is, how to collect all that cylinder pressure data and then what to do with it once you have it? We use a DSP data acquisition card ($$$) clocked by a crankshaft mounted optical encoder at 1 CAD increments. We are using the data to back out actual rate of burning and thus get some measure of the quality of combustion, our emphasis being on combustion during cold start. -- Mark Wilcutts Mechanical Engineering Department University of California On Wed, 12 May 1999, C. Brooks wrote: > Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone > about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were > discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being > able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation > kinda stuck with me. > > If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder > pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers > would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample > rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor that > could take the abuse??? > > > > Charles Brooks From markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu Sat May 15 21:12:04 1999 From: markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu (Mark Wilcutts) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:12:04 -0400 Subject: Injector Firing Voltage Message-ID: The injector driver chips used in ECMs are designed to be immune to flyback. You should see 12V on the line most of the time, then a short ground pulse of duration equal to the dwell time, then the large spike from flyback... -- MW On Sat, 15 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > I hooked the scope up to a GM ecm running 8 saturated injectors. The normal > 12v only appreared rarely. The usual voltage of the injectors firing was > 75-100v.. > So this flyback/kickback, is a very large issue. > This would seem to imply to me, that the stock ecm doesn't clip the voltage > by reverse biasing a diode, to contol it, but rather use a scheme, where > they deal with it. Maybe clipping these signals has a adverse affect on the > injectors opening/closing.. > Jus curious, if this makes sense. > Grumpy > From twsharpe at mtco.com Sat May 15 22:01:10 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 18:01:10 -0400 Subject: horse power/acceleration Message-ID: Good stuff, I just wanted a relative number - crankshaft acceleration at x rpm, y load for comparison/tuning. If we change the mixture at point x-y what does the crank acceleration (power?) do?????? just more food for thought... TomS Ord Millar wrote: > Take the acceleration at some point in your curve, call it A, and multiply > by vehicle mass. This gives the linear force exerted by the rear wheels. > (front wheels?). F=MA (it is convinient to measure acceleration here in G, > and mass in lbs). > > Torque at the rear wheel is F / (D*2*PI), where D is wheel diameter. Engine > torque is rear torque / axle ration / transmission ratio + driveline loss. > (keep D in ft for simplicity, loss in ft-lbs) > > Engine HP is engine TQ * engine RPM / 5251. (when TQ is in lbs-ft) > > So: HP = (MA/(D*2*PI)/ratio+loss) * RPM / 5251. > > Add in air & rolling resistance, and you're almost there! > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff W > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 7:35 PM > Subject: horse power/acceleration > > >dear sir > >I am writing to you because I am looking for the correct > calculation/formula > >for finding the approximate horse power conversion from vehicle weight and > >acceleration curve. > > I am presently in Vancouver community college, in Vancouver B.C and my > >instructor (Dave William's) gave me your e-mail address feeling that you > may > >be of some help to me. > > > >vehicle weight + acceleration curve + some other things I don't know= > >approximate HP at RPM. > >thank you! > >Jeff Weinberger > >sierraj at home.com > > > > > > From twsharpe at mtco.com Sat May 15 22:53:05 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 18:53:05 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: Just seat of the pants measurements... medium hot 406 sbc, electric fan (on @ 200), griffin radiator, 7 qt pan, with mild overheating problems... Idle in traffic H2O @ 220-235, now 195-200, Oil @ 230-250+ now 200. At 75 mph cruse, lite load, H2O was 190-195, now 180, (thermostat), oil was 200-210 now 185. Around Elkart lake for 1 hr, H2O @210, oil at 200, was 190, 190 before we were back to the pits. tom S HPC has oil sheading coatings for crank, rods, block etc.. Tom S Bruce Plecan wrote: > Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for what > they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. > Has any one run any endurance tests?. > Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. > Bruce From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 15 23:17:10 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 19:17:10 -0400 Subject: Yet another O2 sensor fakeout trick Message-ID: James Seabolt wrote: > > Thinking about trying yet another trick. I just can't leave this one thing > alone. I would really like to get rid of my 5th injector. The fuel line is > touching several items on the motor and I am afraid it might chap and > spring a leak. Also it doesn't look very professional anyway. And the fact > I am sure the injectors will provide enough fuel if I could just boost the > pulse rate up a bit. > Ummmm.. Did you say in a previous post that the computer definitely relies on O2 reading when it's at Wide Open Throttle? Shannen From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Sat May 15 23:24:36 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 19:24:36 -0400 Subject: FYI - Patent 5704321 - Traveling spark ignition system Message-ID: Well, I use the term losely. I just started looking at the references that patents refer to (both backwards and forwards) and also the SAE papers. That's all! Just look at the following patent's description and you'll see what I mean. http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05704321__ Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > how do you search the patent archives ? -- Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au http://www.techedge.com.au/teinfo.htm Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Sat May 15 23:49:29 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 19:49:29 -0400 Subject: SAAB DI coils - was Re: "ION" information ... Message-ID: Well, 4862093 is a conceptial diagram, and certainly good enough to describe what's happening, but the difference between a conceptial circuit and an actual schematic with transistor type numbers etc... I was wondering if anyone has had a look at a real SAAB ION-sense module and come up with a real schematic. I ask this because I read in the archives that there were a few of these SAAB modules floating around (some time ago) and someone was going to check it out (but I could find no reference of this actually happening). Jim Crance's email made me wonder if the modules he has are the ION-sense versions. I also understand that the later SAAB ION-sense modules are potted and impossible to actually get into. Anyway, I don't really want a SAAB module, but a real life schematic of an ION-sense circuit so I can start playing with it on my 68HC11 ignition controller. PG. Bruce Plecan wrote: > > The patent 4862093 has a schematic will it > Grumpy > > > So, is this the same DI system with the ION sense circuitry? > > If so, has anyone published the actual schematic for one of > > these units? > > > > JCsDOOR at aol.com wrote: > > > > > If you pull the cover off a Saab di you will find 4 coils that > > > unplug and can be used for other apps. > > > Jim crance > > > Ps I still have my cone hat > > > > -- > > Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au > > Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 > > -- Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au http://www.techedge.com.au/teinfo.htm Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 16 00:06:05 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 20:06:05 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > For the lack of anything else to do, I hooked the heated O2 up, and was > looking at the voltage drop across a sensor resistor, I been thinking of > using. > As the heater warmed up, the voltage drop across the resistor changed, > just meaning the heater was drawing less current. > I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no output, > to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just in > atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 right, > nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. > Did I need to load the sensor?. > The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully > swing high?. > Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to reference > to?. > Grumpy I thought sensor voltage increased as O2 content on element side of sensor decreased. I suspect if the O2 concentration on the Ref side of the sensor was increased the voltage would rise some. Not everyone can duplicate the O2 portions of your experiments at home. ; ) Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 16 00:09:15 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 20:09:15 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 04:02 PM 5/15/99 -0400, you wrote: > >For the lack of anything else to do, I hooked the heated O2 up, and was > >looking at the voltage drop across a sensor resistor, I been thinking of > >using. > > As the heater warmed up, the voltage drop across the resistor changed, > >just meaning the heater was drawing less current. > > I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no output, > >to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just in > >atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 right, > >nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. > > Did I need to load the sensor?. > > The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully > >swing high?. > > Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to reference > >to?. > > Bad thing about O2 sensors is they aren't truly O2 sensors... they are HC > sensors. > In pure O2, the sensor should keep a low voltage. In an environment rich > with HC (IE propane, unburnt fuel etc) they should go .9-1 Volt. Ok, please splain this statement. O2 sensor voltage drops when spark plugs fail to fire, and there's more HC present than when everything's sparking normally. Why the contradiction? Shannen From kb4mxo at mwt.net Sun May 16 01:47:53 1999 From: kb4mxo at mwt.net (Steve Gorkowski) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 21:47:53 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: Hi Bruce Are you using the computer scope probe ? With a one wire o2 sensor or Ngk i can read full one volt with no loading with same probe. How are you heating it. Steve Shannen Durphey wrote: > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > For the lack of anything else to do, I hooked the heated O2 up, and was > > looking at the voltage drop across a sensor resistor, I been thinking of > > using. > > As the heater warmed up, the voltage drop across the resistor changed, > > just meaning the heater was drawing less current. > > I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no output, > > to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just in > > atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 right, > > nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. > > Did I need to load the sensor?. > > The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully > > swing high?. > > Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to reference > > to?. > > Grumpy > I thought sensor voltage increased as O2 content on element side of > sensor decreased. I suspect if the O2 concentration on the Ref side > of the sensor was increased the voltage would rise some. > > Not everyone can duplicate the O2 portions of your experiments at > home. ; ) > Shannen From arcstarter at hotmail.com Sun May 16 02:12:19 1999 From: arcstarter at hotmail.com (Bill the arcstarter) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:12:19 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: Various people wrote: >> I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no >>output, >>to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just in >>atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 >>right, >>nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. >> Did I need to load the sensor?. >> The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully >>swing high?. >> Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to >>reference >>to?. > >Bad thing about O2 sensors is they aren't truly O2 sensors... they are HC >sensors. In pure O2, the sensor should keep a low voltage. In an >environment rich with HC (IE propane, unburnt fuel etc) they should go .9-1 >Volt. I can confirm this. My "O2" sensor could NOT distinguish between air and 100% argon (from a TIG welder). However it responded gloriously to a bit of raw propane from the plumber's torch... (The O2 sensor was a 3-wire electrically heated Bosch unit) There is indeed a great mystery here as there is obviously much more to the story than "They sense O2". ('cause they don't!) If anyone knows the whole story I'd love to hear it :) -Bill _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sun May 16 02:18:06 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:18:06 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: At 07:59 PM 5/15/99 -0400, you wrote: >Ok, please splain this statement. O2 sensor voltage drops when spark >plugs fail to fire, and there's more HC present than when everything's >sparking normally. Why the contradiction? My example was under conditions where combustion was actually happening. Voltage will drop with increasing O2, but under combustion conditions, the exhaust actually starts having more CO and HC as it get's richer and less O2. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sun May 16 02:24:49 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:24:49 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: On Sat, 15 May 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > POR-15 is also recommended by the mfgr for the inside of blocks. Painting > them is wise--condensation does happen in there! > I once had access to a well equipped test lab and they would routinely do engine oil analysis for me. What was interesting [to me] was that although the engine in question was several years old at the time, the silicon leached out from casting was pretty high... From ord at aei.ca Sun May 16 02:26:41 1999 From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:26:41 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: GARY To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 1:13 PM Subject: Re: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust >3) >I am trying to decide the best way to dampen the signal from my Knock >Sensor (the Subaru). The resistance of the KS is 520K ohm. The ECU >appears to be sending about two to three volts D.C. to the Knock Sensor, >but I don't know if that remains constant throughout operation. > >What do you guys think of a first resistor in series to dampen output >along with a second resistor paralleling the seriesed KS and first >resistor to make the overall resistance/impedance 520K ohm? or using a >diode to allow the D.C. monitor current to pass while offering >resistance to the KS generated signal. I thing a diode would filter the >KS A.C. signal into D.C. and cause a problem. Any other ideas? First of all, isn't the KS a piezo sensor? If so, I think DC resistance doen't really matter. If you want to attenuate, you could build a divider around it - two resistors in series accross the element, leave one wire connected to the KS, connect the other to the junction of the resistors. If it is really damping that you want, instead of just attenuation, then you need to build a low pass filter. From rah at horizon.hit.net Sun May 16 02:39:55 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:39:55 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor fakeouts Message-ID: On Sat, 15 May 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > Greetings, > > I haven't been keeping up with many of these threads, but I noticed that > the O2 fakeout diagrams I've seen posted here still had the O2 sensor... > are the purpose of the diagrams to "adjust" the output of the O2 sensor > on a live vehicle? Or, are they for testing an ECM on a bench? Because > if its the latter, you don't need the sensor obviously, and a 5 or 10 > turn 100K pot and a D battery would do the trick nicely. > > D cell + ----> --\ > / 100k 5 or 10 turn pot > \ > / <------- to o2 sensor wire on ECM > \ > / > D cell - --0--> --\ > | > | > ground > > > > Or, have I once again missed the point? > I believe the O2 fake sensors are used on ODBII vehicles that have two pairs of O2 sensors. The circuit may be the circuit to make the one after the CAT look right when the CAT is missing or bad. Roger From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 16 02:55:05 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:55:05 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Gorkowski To: Sent: Saturday, May 15, 1999 9:39 PM Subject: Re: O2 voltz > Hi Bruce > Are you using the computer scope probe ? Yes > With a one wire o2 sensor or Ngk i can > read full one volt with no loading with same probe. How are you heating it. No, I'm using a 4 wire GM divourced ground O2 sensor. 12v 1.8 ohm sensor resistor Bruce > > Steve > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > For the lack of anything else to do, I hooked the heated O2 up, and was > > > looking at the voltage drop across a sensor resistor, I been thinking of > > > using. > > > As the heater warmed up, the voltage drop across the resistor changed, > > > just meaning the heater was drawing less current. > > > I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no output, > > > to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just in > > > atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 right, > > > nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. > > > Did I need to load the sensor?. > > > The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully > > > swing high?. > > > Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to reference > > > to?. > > > Grumpy > > I thought sensor voltage increased as O2 content on element side of > > sensor decreased. I suspect if the O2 concentration on the Ref side > > of the sensor was increased the voltage would rise some. > > > > Not everyone can duplicate the O2 portions of your experiments at > > home. ; ) > > Shannen > > > From automotive at mailcity.com Sun May 16 02:58:42 1999 From: automotive at mailcity.com (Ron Jeremy) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:58:42 -0400 Subject: switching eprom Message-ID: I am a student and for a class project I am researching the best way to make a switchable Eprom for a GM P-4 computer, the normal Eprom is a 27c128, I would like to have 8 or 10 different programs loaded for testing in back to back conditions. If you could let me know the best way to do such a thing it would be appreciated. I did search the archive, but thought the information may have changed since the 97 postings I found. Thanks, Ron Get your FREE Email at http://mailcity.lycos.com Get your PERSONALIZED START PAGE at http://my.lycos.com From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 16 03:02:53 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:02:53 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: Heat is what drives the reaction. No heat, no reaction, no voltage. BUT, a poorly lite, reaction, that causes, a miss, can generate a high O2 reading. Bruce Staff been to market 3x today looking for cereal cables, we're committed to finding them thou..(well maybe commitable) > Ok, please splain this statement. O2 sensor voltage drops when spark > plugs fail to fire, and there's more HC present than when everything's > sparking normally. Why the contradiction? > Shannen From ECMnut at aol.com Sun May 16 03:08:12 1999 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:08:12 -0400 Subject: I'm BACK...but NOW as a VENDOR Message-ID: Gar, It's good to hear from you. I & others were sorry to lose you way back when. Your posts were always "must reads" for the techies. Welcome back. (we locked the door after you entered this time) Mike V From nwester at eidnet.org Sun May 16 03:11:50 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:11:50 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: Ted, It's been done in the past--I don't know if any real "dyno'd" results ever made some publications, but the best results wouldn't have made the extra work worth the bother. Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: Stowe, Ted-SEA To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 12:40 AM Subject: RE: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >here's a thought, has anyone ever given any thought to painting the inside >of an engine ? before you hit delete, consider how easy it is for dirt etc >to stick to the inside of the block, under a microscope the surface must be >like velcro. I suspect oil would return a little quicker to the pan. just a >thought, you can flame me now. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp at bright.net] >Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 9:31 PM >To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings > > >Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for what >they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. > Has any one run any endurance tests?. >Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. >Bruce > From nwester at eidnet.org Sun May 16 03:16:27 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:16:27 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: Greg, The only problem with testing like that is the motor had to be torn down to perform the experiment. I'd put little faith in a 15 degree change when a complete teardown would have had to be done to perform the work. Lyndon IP TECH -----Original Message----- From: Greg Hermann To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 8:11 AM Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >>Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for what >>they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. >> Has any one run any endurance tests?. >>Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. >>Bruce > >A fellow I spoke with at HPC told me that they ran a dyno test of a fairly >typical hipo 350 CID Chebby first with no coatings, then with coating only >on the piston crowns. Said that--with no other changes, the steady state >oil temperature at sustained full load dropped 15 degrees F. > >Greg > > > From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 16 03:45:15 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:45:15 -0400 Subject: In cylinder pressure measurement Message-ID: >Recently, in our lab we have been using an optical transducer >(www.optrand.com) that measures the deflection of a flush-mounted diphragm >remotely with a tiny laser through an optical fiber. These currently cost >about $900 and don't need a charge amp. Future indications are that the >sensor electronics can be miniturized and the sensor produced at very low >cost. > Thanks for the details, Mark. This has got to be the one I had heard bit and pieces about. Regards, Greg From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 16 03:53:19 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:53:19 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Sharpe To: Sent: Saturday, May 15, 1999 6:53 PM Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Thanks, Bruce > Just seat of the pants measurements... medium hot 406 sbc, electric fan (on @ > 200), griffin radiator, 7 qt pan, with mild overheating problems... Idle in > traffic H2O @ 220-235, now 195-200, Oil @ 230-250+ now 200. At 75 mph cruse, > lite load, H2O was 190-195, now 180, (thermostat), oil was 200-210 now 185. > Around Elkart lake for 1 hr, H2O @210, oil at 200, was 190, 190 before we were > back to the pits. tom S > > HPC has oil sheading coatings for crank, rods, block etc.. Tom S > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for what > > they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. > > Has any one run any endurance tests?. > > Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. > > Bruce > > > From nwester at eidnet.org Sun May 16 05:27:49 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 01:27:49 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: Didn't see the original message, but ANY missfire ends up with a pulse wave of extra unburned fuel (and 14 parts of raw O2 stoich) by the O2 sensor. This lowers O2 voltage and increases injector pulse width. You end up EVERY time there's a missfire with a rich running engine. Hope this helps the explanation. Lyndon IP TECH -----Original Message----- From: David A. Cooley To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 10:23 PM Subject: Re: O2 voltz >At 07:59 PM 5/15/99 -0400, you wrote: > >>Ok, please splain this statement. O2 sensor voltage drops when spark >>plugs fail to fire, and there's more HC present than when everything's >>sparking normally. Why the contradiction? > >My example was under conditions where combustion was actually happening. >Voltage will drop with increasing O2, but under combustion conditions, the >exhaust actually starts having more CO and HC as it get's richer and less O2. >=========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! >=========================================================== From garfield at cyberlynk.com Sun May 16 06:09:11 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 02:09:11 -0400 Subject: SAAB DI coils - was Re: "ION" information ... Message-ID: On Sun, 16 May 1999 09:52:04 +1000, Peter Gargano wrote: >Well, 4862093 is a conceptial diagram, and certainly >good enough to describe what's happening, but the difference >between a conceptial circuit and an actual schematic >with transistor type numbers etc... > >I was wondering if anyone has had a look at a real SAAB >ION-sense module and come up with a real schematic. I ask >this because I read in the archives that there were a few >of these SAAB modules floating around (some time ago) and >someone was going to check it out (but I could find no >reference of this actually happening). Jim Crance's >email made me wonder if the modules he has are the ION-sense >versions. Tisk tisk, you musta missed some of the article contents, cuz I related how I HAD unpotted a SAAB assembly, traced the circuit, and discovered MUCH to my surprise that the patent circuit was almost identical to the actual wiring of the mfg'd part. I was about to publish a list of parts values to accompany their patent circuit, when Robutt Hairass threatened to see if he couldn't stir up SAAB's legal department to sue me for infringement, even tho the exploration we were doing was COMPLETELY within both the spirit and letter of patent law. (There's a discussion of this 'playing with patents' and why/how it's perfectly legal AND ethical in the archives, I'd recomment you peruse). Because nobody came to my defense when I posted his threats publically and complained, I decided to demure on handing out the goodies. Just one of life's many 'realities'. All this histery (sic) is in the archives if you care to look. Only other 'problem' is that the circuit in the patent is NOT the circuit in their later/current versions, but only in the one they used to introduce the technology in '90. By 1992 (the only revision they've had in all the subsequent years!), they had gone to a newer design, which was never published, to my knowledge. >I also understand that the later SAAB ION-sense modules >are potted and impossible to actually get into. ALL the SAAB systems are of necessity potted. They're not tryna hide anything; it's needed due to the nature and packaging of the system. But concerning "potted and impossible", that's a misconception. ANY potted system can be "gotten into" with the right chemicals and techniques, but you may efface so much of the ID info on the parts that you really have a detective job on yer hands, even tho you indeed have the parts wiring. The more chips in there, the more this obtains. IF Saab actually had wanted to hide their largely analog circuitry via potting (which the patent's disclosure of the actual circuit seems to prove otherwise, on the face of it), they would have just integrated key parts of the circuit in an analog partition that could NOT be viewed without sophisticated chip reversing equipment, which is eXactly what has been done with the EGOR module, and will also be done with the IONeyes module. >Anyway, I don't really want a SAAB module, but a real >life schematic of an ION-sense circuit so I can start >playing with it on my 68HC11 ignition controller. Yes, understandable; exactly! Just give us a couple months and you'll be able to license just such a circuit and PLANS from us FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY, including the none-too-trivial HV supply and CDI-like IGN system that MUST accompany any such IONeyes attempts. The reason for the last statement is that the IGN event has to be kept short enough to close off quickly and open the window for ION to look into the combustion chamber. Standard inductive IGN is simply WAY too long-lived an event, and can completely mask the most important time period needed to inspect for a detonation signature. You will of course need to buy an IONeyes module from us (it WILL be nominally priced) in order to use the PLANS and to implement the other key parts of the circuit, but beyond that, there's a GREAT deal to layer onto that, in order to build up a complete engine/boost management system, which includes IONeyes, EGOR, and IGN advance control. Once those pieces are integrated together, you'll at long last have a complete WOT proformance engine management ability, because for the first time, you'll have misfire/detonation/preignition detection you CAN rely on, and WOT O2 measurement. This, AFAIK, will be the first time a hobbyist person will safely be able to push the envelop in terms of AFR tuning and forced induction. Dr. Pelican I believe some time ago was the only one I've seen to realize and make this estute observation, that EGOR & AFR measurement is wunnerful, but it's all dressed up with nowhere to go, if you don't ALSO have a reliable method to determine/predict the onset of detonation. If you don't have that last ION piece (or have reliable acoustic detection, of course), you may know what the AFR is precisely, but you still don't know WHAT AFR is safe until after the fact, and after the detonation damage is done. Gar From Regnirps at aol.com Sun May 16 07:45:13 1999 From: Regnirps at aol.com (Regnirps at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 03:45:13 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: In a message dated 5/15/99 10:08:53 PM, nacelp at bright.net writes: > Staff been to market 3x today looking for cereal cables, we're > >committed to finding them thou..(well maybe commitable) According to my Dad, "cerial cables" are what you get if you eat too much fiber. During the great oat bran craze he warned his friends about the possibility of rope burn : ) Charlie Springer From geoffsue at one.net.au Sun May 16 10:23:16 1999 From: geoffsue at one.net.au (Geffro) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 06:23:16 -0400 Subject: 18 & 3x Signals Message-ID: i want to check the output of the 18 and 3x crank signals of a 3.8 litre V6 Holden with a multimeter but am unsure as to how I realise these are both voltage readings but will this actually show me the readings turning on and off or does it happen too fast Cheers Geoff From jseabolt at intermediatn.net Sun May 16 11:43:15 1999 From: jseabolt at intermediatn.net (James Seabolt) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 07:43:15 -0400 Subject: Yet another O2 sensor fakeout trick Message-ID: "Mark Romans" wrote: >>Hi James: With a GM ecm (Unless it is some strange app) the ecm ignores the 02 sensor when at more than 70% throttle anyway. It goes into PE (Power Enrichment) and goes to a richer commanded afr. So making the 02 "Read" lean won't change the pw.<<< The throttle position switch on my L-jetronic system has only two contacts. They are either opened or closed. One detects idle and the other wide open throttle. So the FI system never goes into power mode unless it is actually under wide open throttle. I checked the TPS switch the other day (had my mom actually hold the accelerator to the floor) and the switch closed so I know that's working. Since I can reach 5 pounds of boost without evening been under wide open throttle while going up a hill, the FI system never goes into power mode so the O2 sensor tells the computer to cut back on the pulse rate when it sees all this extra fuel from the 5th injector and extra fuel pressure. I beleive that by simply breaking the circuit between the O2 sensor and computer as soon as I enter the boost zone, this helps get fuel into the motor quicker which cools the combustion chamber down and prevents detonation. I have been thinking about something. Since the O2 sensor will never give an output of more than .9 volts my trick may not work. If I drop the voltage between the O2 sensor and computer from .9 volts to say .3 volts, this might cause the computer to pulse the injectors to the point where it floods the engine. I imagine that if the computer is trying to shoot for a specific mixture (such as 13:1 or .9 volts under wide open throttle) because the output of the O2 sensor maxxes out at .9 volts, simply dropping the voltage to .3 volts is as far as it will go. So the computer might increase the pulse rate trying to shoot for a richer mixture but because it will never see .9 volts, it overshoots. There is one way to find out, which is to just try it. I will try using a diode like one guy mentioned and see what happens. ---------------------------------------------------------- James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ ICQ # : 7344463 United States 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) ---------------------------------------------------------- From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 16 12:43:33 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 08:43:33 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: So you have no faith in piston ring manufacturer's dyno claims? Shannen Programmer wrote: > > Greg, > > The only problem with testing like that is the motor had to be torn down to > perform the experiment. I'd put little faith in a 15 degree change when a > complete teardown would have had to be done to perform the work. > > Lyndon IP TECH > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Hermann > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 8:11 AM > Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings > > >>Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for > what > >>they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. > >> Has any one run any endurance tests?. > >>Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. > >>Bruce > > > >A fellow I spoke with at HPC told me that they ran a dyno test of a fairly > >typical hipo 350 CID Chebby first with no coatings, then with coating only > >on the piston crowns. Said that--with no other changes, the steady state > >oil temperature at sustained full load dropped 15 degrees F. > > > >Greg > > > > > > From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Sun May 16 14:25:28 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 10:25:28 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: Dave Vizard reports that simply coating the combustion face of the intake valve lowers the intake air charge temperature by 60 degree F or more and is worth typically two octane numbers increase in the effective octane of the fuel. Remember that the intake valve face is exposed to combustion temperatures for at least 50% of the cycle and reaches the same temperatures as the exhaust face. Further the back side temperature reaches 600+F in a normal engine. The majority of the intake valve cooling comes from HEATING the intake air charge. Insulating the valve from most of the combustion temperature significantly reduces the intake valve temperature and reduces the amount of heat the valve can reject to the incoming charge. The intake valve coating is so important that Vizard recommends that if you only coat one thing, it should be the intake valve. From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Sun May 16 15:07:04 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:07:04 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust - A concept Message-ID: A simplified approach - to get the idea into play. Let us look at exhaust gas flow. Consider the normal mass of exhaust gas as thin molten lava. When the valve opens, it behaves as a high temperature viscous liquid and flows out of the cylinder, down the headers and out the tail pipe. This is essentially a liquid flow subject to all liquid flow rules. As long as the cylinder pressure is significantly greater than atmospheric, this flow is essentially unaffected by low order acoustic variations. As the piston approaches TDC on the exhaust stroke, hopefully most of the gas is evacuated and the pressure is falling. It is in this region thru intake valve opening "overlap" and the closing of the exhaust valve that resonant tuning can help. The "help" can be significant. If the intake "see" the chamber as a negative pressure, the initial air flow into the cylinder will be greatly accelerated. Ideally, the pressure wave will cause enough depression to totally clean out the chamber "scavenged" but not excessive draw intake charge into the exhaust. This effect is strictly dependent upon the exhaust pressure vs intake pressure. If the exhaust pressure is positive to the intake, exhaust will flow up the intake - no exception to the rule - path of least resistance, pressure differential and all that rot you know. The pressure wave arrival is a function of the acoustic characteristics of the exhaust. Its frequency a function of the tuned lengths and volumes, its amplitude a function of the shapes "Q" for the RF types. It is possible to achieve significant negative or positive values even with an above atmospheric average pressure. Remember this pressure wave is only significant when the exhaust gas is below critical pressure and until the valve closes. Currently we cut into metal something that experience or calculation show us will function in a specific rpm region. We then reduce the Q of the system to broaden the effective range - trading some reduction in peak benefits to provide some of them over a more usable range. We extend the overlap to widen the range where there will be significant negative pressure conveyed to the intake charge to cause it to accelerate. What if it were possible to "tune" the negative going peak to optimally arrive thru a relatively broad RPM region? We could then sharpen the response - raise the Q - and get even more effect. Or, during cruise, we could tune for a positive pressure in the chamber. Since we know the majority of the exhaust flow is unaffected by the acoustical tuning effects and simply follows the kinetic rules, tuning the exhaust pressure wave to be positive will have little overall flow effects - unlike placing a restriction would have. The positive wave would not only stop the scavenging effect ( depending on phase and amplitude ) but could be beneficially used for massive EGR at cruise. ( Another thread - simply put - there are strong arguments and evidence that massive EGR can nicely increase economy at light to moderate loads ). Without the accelerating effects of overlap, the throttle would have to be significantly more open to flow the air needed - thus reducing the throttling losses. In summary, being able to detect and tune the phase of the exhaust acoustical pressure wave can result in significant performance and economy enhancement. From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 16 15:19:14 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:19:14 -0400 Subject: 555 program Message-ID: If y'all get as confused as me figuring out 555 stuff this will make life easier Grumpy http://www.schematica.com/Free/Free.htm or ftp://ftp.islandnet.com/schematica/files/ss55511.exe From nwester at eidnet.org Sun May 16 16:10:38 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:10:38 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: I have no faith in some kind of coating--just like I have no faith in Teflon additives...instead of coating the undersides of pistons, or coating the interior of an engine--polishing the interiors smooth would have a greater effect of oil return, and less oil "dwell". As far as piston ring manufacturers go--gapless piston rings and improper end gaps will always yield differing results. You can make anything look good on a dyno--depending on operator. Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 16, 1999 8:08 AM Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >So you have no faith in piston ring manufacturer's dyno claims? >Shannen > >Programmer wrote: >> >> Greg, >> >> The only problem with testing like that is the motor had to be torn down to >> perform the experiment. I'd put little faith in a 15 degree change when a >> complete teardown would have had to be done to perform the work. >> >> Lyndon IP TECH >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Greg Hermann >> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 8:11 AM >> Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >> >> >>Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for >> what >> >>they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. >> >> Has any one run any endurance tests?. >> >>Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. >> >>Bruce >> > >> >A fellow I spoke with at HPC told me that they ran a dyno test of a fairly >> >typical hipo 350 CID Chebby first with no coatings, then with coating only >> >on the piston crowns. Said that--with no other changes, the steady state >> >oil temperature at sustained full load dropped 15 degrees F. >> > >> >Greg >> > >> > >> > > > From nwester at eidnet.org Sun May 16 16:14:02 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 12:14:02 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: What about seat contact width ? Seat/valve contact location ? What kind of coating sticks to anything in the combustion area ? Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- From: Robert Harris To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 16, 1999 9:47 AM Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >Dave Vizard reports that simply coating the combustion face of the intake >valve lowers the intake air charge temperature by 60 degree F or more and is >worth typically two octane numbers increase in the effective octane of the >fuel. > >Remember that the intake valve face is exposed to combustion temperatures for >at least 50% of the cycle and reaches the same temperatures as the exhaust >face. Further the back side temperature reaches 600+F in a normal engine. >The majority of the intake valve cooling comes from HEATING the intake air >charge. > >Insulating the valve from most of the combustion temperature significantly >reduces the intake valve temperature and reduces the amount of heat the valve >can reject to the incoming charge. > >The intake valve coating is so important that Vizard recommends that if you >only coat one thing, it should be the intake valve. > From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Sun May 16 17:13:25 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 13:13:25 -0400 Subject: Thermal Coatings Message-ID: Check this out for a starting place. The owner is easy to work with and is know legible about the subject. http://www.ncal.verio.com/~sc7500/lead2.htm From claresnyder at home.com Sun May 16 17:57:17 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 13:57:17 -0400 Subject: Yet another O2 sensor fakeout trick Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: James Seabolt To: Sent: Sunday, May 16, 1999 7:46 AM Subject: Re: Yet another O2 sensor fakeout trick > "Mark Romans" wrote: > > >>Hi James: With a GM ecm (Unless it is some strange app) the ecm ignores the > 02 sensor when at more than 70% throttle anyway. It goes into PE (Power > Enrichment) and goes to a richer commanded afr. So making the 02 "Read" > lean won't change the pw.<<< > > The throttle position switch on my L-jetronic system has only two contacts. > They are either opened or closed. One detects idle and the other wide open > throttle. So the FI system never goes into power mode unless it is actually > under wide open throttle. > > I checked the TPS switch the other day (had my mom actually hold the > accelerator to the floor) and the switch closed so I know that's working. > > Since I can reach 5 pounds of boost without evening been under wide open > throttle while going up a hill, the FI system never goes into power mode so > the O2 sensor tells the computer to cut back on the pulse rate when it sees > all this extra fuel from the 5th injector and extra fuel pressure. > > I beleive that by simply breaking the circuit between the O2 sensor and > computer as soon as I enter the boost zone, this helps get fuel into the > motor quicker which cools the combustion chamber down and prevents detonation. > > I have been thinking about something. Since the O2 sensor will never give > an output of more than .9 volts my trick may not work. If I drop the > voltage between the O2 sensor and computer from .9 volts to say .3 volts, > this might cause the computer to pulse the injectors to the point where it > floods the engine. > > I imagine that if the computer is trying to shoot for a specific mixture > (such as 13:1 or .9 volts under wide open throttle) because the output of > the O2 sensor maxxes out at .9 volts, simply dropping the voltage to .3 > volts is as far as it will go. > > So the computer might increase the pulse rate trying to shoot for a richer > mixture but because it will never see .9 volts, it overshoots. > > There is one way to find out, which is to just try it. I will try using a > diode like one guy mentioned and see what happens. > MUCH simpler method - install a boost detection switch - preferably adjustable (make one from a vacuum retard diaphragm and a microswitch if necessary) and connect it with the WOT switch in the TPS. If the WOT switch closes at WOT, put the switch in parallel. If it opens, put it in series. This way EITHER WOT or boost will put the system in PE mode. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > James Seabolt -----> mailto:jseabolt at intermediatn.net > Webpage: http://users.intermediatn.net/jseabolt/ > ICQ # : 7344463 > > United States > > 1980 FIAT 2000 TURBO Spider injected (John Deere aspirated) > 1981 FIAT 2000 Spider (Rest in Pieces) > 1981 FIAT X 1/9 (Injected) > 1994 JEEP Wrangler (2.5l ) > 1976 Chevrolet Pickup (454 Big block/7.3 liter) > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > From clive at problem.tantech.com Sun May 16 18:31:04 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 14:31:04 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: > > I have no faith in some kind of coating--just like I have no faith in Teflon > additives...instead of coating the undersides of pistons, or coating the > interior of an engine--polishing the interiors smooth would have a greater > effect of oil return, and less oil "dwell". As far as piston ring oil dwell in areas that have waterjacket contact is a good thing it take some of the heat out of the oil Clive From hobiegary at earthlink.net Sun May 16 18:46:14 1999 From: hobiegary at earthlink.net (GARY) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 14:46:14 -0400 Subject: KS Attenuation, or Dampening Message-ID: > > First of all, isn't the KS a piezo sensor? If so, I think DC resistance > doen't really matter. Yes Ord, it is but the ECU freaks out if it notices that the KS circuit is not present so I assume it is looking for a certain current flow with an applied voltage. If you want to attenuate, you could build a divider > around it - two resistors in series accross the element, leave one wire > connected to the KS, connect the other to the junction of the resistors. > > If it is really damping that you want, instead of just attenuation, then you > need to build a low pass filter. I am unclear on the deference between the two. Attenuation is reducing the signal's amplitude (desired), dampening is reducing the signal's magnitude? What's that? I don't know what I want! I want to see of the ECU will stop retarding my timing every time the piezo reacts to a non-detonation engine noise. I don't quite follow your description of how to build the divider either. Your help is appreciated! -- GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 16 18:50:34 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 14:50:34 -0400 Subject: 18 & 3x Signals Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Geffro To: Sent: Sunday, May 16, 1999 6:24 AM Subject: 18 & 3x Signals At cranking speeds maybe, also depends on sampling rate of the meter. It might miss the even to all together. This is getting to the stage of really needing a scope or scope/probe. Bruce > i want to check the output of the 18 and 3x crank signals of a 3.8 litre V6 > Holden with a multimeter but am unsure as to how > I realise these are both voltage readings but will this actually show me > the readings turning on and off or does it happen too fast > Cheers > Geoff > From garfield at cyberlynk.com Sun May 16 18:58:09 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 14:58:09 -0400 Subject: Proformance Software Query Message-ID: Not directly EFI related, but... I'm looking for someone who owns a licensed copy of both Engine Expert and Dynomation, and even better, if that someone has also taken Lockheed's course he taught last year at CUD. I know it's maybe a long-shot, but I gotta ask. Our aircraft engine group has a couple sample runs we'd like to have done (we'll gladly pay, but don't think 'greedy'; remember, we're a non-profit :), in preparation for considering making a group buy of software licenses, and even having Lockheed out to give our group a class tailored to our particular engine mission. Please respond via e-mail if you 'qualify', as I'm really not prepared to discuss this thread-like and generic, on-list. Pardon the interruption; please resume normal diy programming. Gar From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Sun May 16 20:36:37 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 16:36:37 -0400 Subject: 18 & 3x Signals on Holden 3.8 Message-ID: According to Gregory's Service and repair manual (# 249), under Fuel and Engine Management (page 105 in my edition, this is for VN models) indicates the procedure: 1. remove the ignition control module wiring connector (this is the connector UNDER the coil pack) RH side of the module. 2. connect terminal N and P of the wiring connector together. 3. connect terminal M of the wiring connector to EARTH. 4. connect a test lamp from ignition control module wiring connector terminal H [or G] (-ve) and battery (+ve) 5. rotate crankshaft and you should see the test lamp go on and off 3 times [or 18 times] per revolution. Note that they use a test lamp, so you may need a resistor (100 ohms?) if you wish to use the multimeter. Tell me if it works, okay? PG. Geffro wrote: > > i want to check the output of the 18 and 3x crank signals of a 3.8 litre V6 > Holden with a multimeter but am unsure as to how > I realise these are both voltage readings but will this actually show me > the readings turning on and off or does it happen too fast > Cheers > Geoff -- Peter Gargano peter at mail.techedge.com.au Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 From bearbvd at sni.net Sun May 16 21:59:13 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 17:59:13 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: >Dave Vizard reports that simply coating the combustion face of the intake >valve lowers the intake air charge temperature by 60 degree F or more and is >worth typically two octane numbers increase in the effective octane of the >fuel. > >Remember that the intake valve face is exposed to combustion temperatures for >at least 50% of the cycle and reaches the same temperatures as the exhaust >face. Further the back side temperature reaches 600+F in a normal engine. >The majority of the intake valve cooling comes from HEATING the intake air >charge. > >Insulating the valve from most of the combustion temperature significantly >reduces the intake valve temperature and reduces the amount of heat the valve >can reject to the incoming charge. > >The intake valve coating is so important that Vizard recommends that if you >only coat one thing, it should be the intake valve. Thanks Bob! Now mebbe Gary will worry about it being to cool to evaporate the fuel sprayed on the back side of it! Good post! Greg From nisse.honik at sodertalje.mail.telia.com Sun May 16 22:01:39 1999 From: nisse.honik at sodertalje.mail.telia.com (Nils Björkman) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 18:01:39 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor and water Message-ID: Hello Im working on an EFI project. The purpose of this project is converting and modifying an Volvo B230F engine to be used in a boat. Now the turn has come to attach the O2 sensor. The following problems occure: 1. If the O2-sensor gets in contact with water (in the exhaust manifold), will it be destryoed, how does it work and so on. 2. How near the exhaust port can it be placed to be 300-800 DegC hot? The exhaust manifold is water cooled and the outside of the cast iron thing is not more than you can touch with your hand and not get burned. Please let me know if anyone knows or thinks anything Thanks Nils Bj?rkman Sweden From ord at aei.ca Sun May 16 22:37:52 1999 From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 18:37:52 -0400 Subject: KS Attenuation, or Dampening Message-ID: Well, attenuation reduces amplitude at all frequencies. Dampening reduces amplitude according to frequency. To build a divider: Connect two resistors in series accross the KS. Remove the output wire from the KS, and connect it instead to the junction between the two resistors. Keep the resistance value high, like 1Meg each so that you don't load down the sensor. The output will be reduced by a facor of R1 / (R1+R2) -----Original Message----- From: GARY To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 16, 1999 3:50 PM Subject: KS Attenuation, or Dampening >> >> First of all, isn't the KS a piezo sensor? If so, I think DC resistance >> doen't really matter. > >Yes Ord, it is but the ECU freaks out if it notices that the KS circuit >is not present so I assume it is looking for a certain current flow with >an applied voltage. > >If you want to attenuate, you could build a divider >> around it - two resistors in series accross the element, leave one wire >> connected to the KS, connect the other to the junction of the resistors. >> >> If it is really damping that you want, instead of just attenuation, then you >> need to build a low pass filter. > >I am unclear on the deference between the two. Attenuation is reducing >the signal's amplitude (desired), dampening is reducing the signal's >magnitude? What's that? I don't know what I want! I want to see of >the ECU will stop retarding my timing every time the piezo reacts to a >non-detonation engine noise. > >I don't quite follow your description of how to build the divider >either. Your help is appreciated! > >-- >GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net > From wmcdonal at hutch.com.au Sun May 16 23:07:07 1999 From: wmcdonal at hutch.com.au (Wayne Macdonald) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:07:07 -0400 Subject: New EFI plans (ECU7) are online! Message-ID: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BEA04C.6106B220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are getting boards made up I would like to put my hand up for four of them. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BEA04C.6106B220 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ih8AAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA JQAAAFJFOiBOZXcgRUZJIHBsYW5zIChFQ1U3KSBhcmUgb25saW5lIQDwCgEFgAMADgAAAM8HBQAR AAYAOAA4AAEAYwEBIIADAA4AAADPBwUAEQAGADgAAwABAC4BAQmAAQAhAAAAMzcyRThERkY4MjBC RDMxMUE2MDYwMDQwMDUzREE0NkUACwcBA5AGAGACAAAUAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAA AAAAAwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQDQ8veh3p++AR4AcAABAAAAJQAAAFJFOiBOZXcgRUZJIHBs YW5zIChFQ1U3KSBhcmUgb25saW5lIQAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvp/eofb/jS44C4IR06YGAEAF PaRuAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFgAAAHdtY2RvbmFsQGh1dGNoLmNvbS5h dQAAAAMABhB6I2AKAwAHED8AAAAeAAgQAQAAAEAAAABJRllPVUFSRUdFVFRJTkdCT0FSRFNNQURF VVBJV09VTERMSUtFVE9QVVRNWUhBTkRVUEZPUkZPVVJPRlRIRU0AAgEJEAEAAADpAAAA5QAAAH8B AABMWkZ1I/1YhP8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbDAoMyA8YHEwKDIjMP emhlbAMgRGzqZwKDNBMNfQqACM8J2eI7F58yNTUCgAqBDbHBC2BuZzEwMxQgCwoLEvIMAWMAQCBJ ZiCKeQhgIArAZSBnEgDydAuAZyAG4AsRBCAAwJENsCB1cBxwIHcIYEBsZCBsaWsdEHQQbyBwdQVA bXkg/RHAbh8AHnECEAXAAhAIcJQgbxyQdBTwbS4Ki1kfIDM2DfAbbHADYHQvBZAFQAqFFsEAJOAA AAADABAQAAAAAAMAERABAAAAQAAHMHCQTYLen74BQAAIMHCQTYLen74BHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6 IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAFWM ------ =_NextPart_000_01BEA04C.6106B220-- From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 16 23:40:53 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:40:53 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: Well, in answer to the last question, ceramic thermal barrier coatings stick in the combustion chamber. They've been around for years, and are starting to gain popularity. Here's a company that makes DIY coatings, which some list members have used succesfully. http://www.deskmedia.com/~techline/Index.html I have thermal barrier coatings and dry film lubricant in an engine I run daily, and have had mixed results. DFL is available on piston skirts through TRW, and GM is now applying it to pistons for the 3.1l engine. Shannen Programmer wrote: > > What about seat contact width ? Seat/valve contact location ? What kind of > coating sticks to anything in the combustion area ? > > Lyndon IPTECH > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Harris > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Sunday, May 16, 1999 9:47 AM > Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings > > >Dave Vizard reports that simply coating the combustion face of the intake > >valve lowers the intake air charge temperature by 60 degree F or more and > is > >worth typically two octane numbers increase in the effective octane of the > >fuel. > > > >Remember that the intake valve face is exposed to combustion temperatures > for > >at least 50% of the cycle and reaches the same temperatures as the exhaust > >face. Further the back side temperature reaches 600+F in a normal engine. > >The majority of the intake valve cooling comes from HEATING the intake air > >charge. > > > >Insulating the valve from most of the combustion temperature significantly > >reduces the intake valve temperature and reduces the amount of heat the > valve > >can reject to the incoming charge. > > > >The intake valve coating is so important that Vizard recommends that if you > >only coat one thing, it should be the intake valve. > > From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 17 01:07:58 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:07:58 -0400 Subject: LT1 Spark info wanted Message-ID: I'm looking for spark timing vs rpm, temp, map for an LT1 engine. I've got the notion that this engine uses a large amount of advance at cruise and would like to confirm it. Thanks. Shannen From rah at horizon.hit.net Mon May 17 01:20:54 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:20:54 -0400 Subject: LT1 Spark info wanted Message-ID: Do you want some diacom runs from a LT1 at cruise? Roger On Sun, 16 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > I'm looking for spark timing vs rpm, temp, map for an LT1 engine. > I've got the notion that this engine uses a large amount of advance at > cruise and would like to confirm it. Thanks. > Shannen > > From wilman at hkabc.net Mon May 17 01:35:31 1999 From: wilman at hkabc.net (WILMAN) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:35:31 -0400 Subject: Honda Vtec ECU Message-ID: ---------- > From: Alexander Wenning > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Honda Vtec ECU > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 4:21 PM > > WILMAN schrieb: > > Hello, > > > > Is there anybody out there who can help me to reprogram the ECU's > > found on 1992 onwards Honda Civic EG6 1.6 Vtec. Codes are either P30-G00 > > or P30-000. > > > > > > > > Wilman > > That?s really not easy. You have to switch the processor from internal rom to > external rom. Read the internal Rom from the processor and then fit a 27c256 > eprom into the blank space on the pcb. Now it?s very easy to modify the ecu > using an emulator. > > I have the information how to switch the processor from internal rom to an > external one but I don?t know which processor is inside. Having a look at the > ecu it shouldn?t be a problem to find the processor type and read the rom. My ECU has the Oki 66207 processor inside. Would you please supply the information as how to switch the processor to read from an external ROM? Also, how can I read the ROM from the 66207 processor? > > I guess Chris Smith from Racelogic is still on this list (Hi Chris!) and I think > he should know about that. > > If you?re just looking for a cost effective performance increase I?d suggest the > Superchips conversion. They show an interesting 16 hp gain on the rolling road > (using high octane fuel). > > Regards > > Alex Wenning > From goflo at pacbell.net Mon May 17 01:37:59 1999 From: goflo at pacbell.net (goflo at pacbell.net) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:37:59 -0400 Subject: 555 program Message-ID: Another view is: http://www3.ncsu.edu/ECE480/480_555.htm Other neat stuff on site if you poke around... Jack Bruce Plecan wrote: > > If y'all get as confused as me figuring out 555 stuff this will make life > easier > Grumpy > > http://www.schematica.com/Free/Free.htm > > or > > ftp://ftp.islandnet.com/schematica/files/ss55511.exe From RRauscher at nni.com Mon May 17 01:40:41 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:40:41 -0400 Subject: switching eprom Message-ID: Ron, here's two articles that I wrote to someone a while back. It's oriented to a c3 ecm, but still relative. BobR. P.S. You mentioned wanting ten blocks, think binary, to get ten, you need to waste the other six. Can get 2x, 4x, 8x, 16x, 32x, each addtional address line doubles the amount of addressable memory... (1st article) I don't know how much detail you need, so let me just type for a while... I need 32Kbit of storage (a 2732 EPROM), I have 256Kbit EPROMS (a 27256). So I take the three highest address lines, tie them to a 3-pos dip switch, and select one of the eight 32Kbit areas within the EPROM. To do this, I cut those three address lines short enough that they won't enter a socket. These are pins 2, 26 & 27. I then place the '256 eprom into a 28 pin socket. Now you need to do a little soldering on the eprom. Place a 10K resister from each cut eprom pin to ground, pin 14 on the eprom. Three pins, three resisters. (Don't cover the window). Tie the three dip switch contacts on one side together, and run a 1K resister from these to +5v, pin 28 on the eprom. Now, the other dip switch contacts, run one of each to one each of the three high address lines. Yep the ones with the 10K's to ground. Now, if that dip switch position is in the off or open position, that address line is grounded (low), through the 10K. If that switch position is closed or on, that address line will be high, through the 1K. The only thing left to do, is to tie pin 26 of the socket, to pin 28 on the eprom. Then run a 1N914/In4148 diode from pin 28 of the eprom, to pin 1 of the eprom. This is to place +5v on the program pin, as spec'd, for use in the read mode. When the device is programmed, the programming volts will be set properly, without affecting the normal 5v on pin 28. When programming, you only program in the 32Kbit block. The other blocks can be programmed with a change of the dip switch, or they can be done later. When you program the eprom, use the '256Kbit algo, but only have it do a 32Kbit block. The dip switch is in binary, 3 positions, for 8 different combinations of those 3 address lines. You can do the same general thing with almost any eprom combination. Goto the National Semi (www.natsemi.com), or Atmel (www.atmel.com), web sites for data sheets on various eproms and the pin outs. (2nd article) Slightly different approach... First, watch the Bits vs. Bytes. EPROMs are sized in bits, takes eight bits for a byte. The eproms in this disscussion are byte addressable. So a 27256 prom is 256Kbits and equals 32KBytes, or 32768 addressable locations. The '7730 ECM takes 256KBit eproms, the '7747 ECM takes 32Kbit eproms. OK, back to the '7747 ECM, 32Kb (little 'b' is bits, big 'B' is bytes), is 4KB. To address 4KB locations, you need 12 address lines: 2^12 = 4096 (4KB). A 256Kb eprom = 32KB, it has 15 address lines. 2^15 = 32768. So, if we substitute a '256 eprom for a '32 eprom, we have an extra 3 address lines. But, they do address usable locations. So, using these address lines, we dice the eprom up into eight chunks of 4KB each. To select which chunk, we put different states (high or low), on that group of extra address lines. Three lines, eight different combinations. If I used a 27128 eprom, I would have four chunks of 4KB. So, you could use a 1Mb eprom, and have four available chunks. HTH -- From RRauscher at nni.com Mon May 17 01:49:22 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:49:22 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: This sounds correct, a lean (o2 rich), condition gives a low reading, while too much fuel (no o2), gives a high reading. Run some propane over it to block out o2, and the reading should go up. BobR. P.S. A while back there was a link to an epa article posted, interesting reading, I'll see if I can find it. >For the lack of anything else to do, I hooked the heated O2 up, and was >looking at the voltage drop across a sensor resistor, I been thinking of >using. > As the heater warmed up, the voltage drop across the resistor changed, >just meaning the heater was drawing less current. > I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no >output, >to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just >in >atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 >right, >nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. > Did I need to load the sensor?. > The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully >swing high?. > Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to >reference >to?. >Grumpy From nwester at eidnet.org Mon May 17 02:38:46 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 22:38:46 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: Shannen, Guess I'll have to look into this some more--I'm young and prejudiced to gimmicks, so I'll have to do some research on this. Maybe I can find someone that's working on this to throw on our dyno...be patient with me guys !! Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 16, 1999 7:17 PM Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >Well, in answer to the last question, ceramic thermal barrier coatings >stick in the combustion chamber. They've been around for years, and >are starting to gain popularity. Here's a company that makes DIY >coatings, which some list members have used succesfully. >http://www.deskmedia.com/~techline/Index.html > >I have thermal barrier coatings and dry film lubricant in an engine I >run daily, and have had mixed results. DFL is available on piston >skirts through TRW, and GM is now applying it to pistons for the 3.1l >engine. > >Shannen > >Programmer wrote: >> >> What about seat contact width ? Seat/valve contact location ? What kind of >> coating sticks to anything in the combustion area ? >> >> Lyndon IPTECH >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Robert Harris >> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Date: Sunday, May 16, 1999 9:47 AM >> Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >> >> >Dave Vizard reports that simply coating the combustion face of the intake >> >valve lowers the intake air charge temperature by 60 degree F or more and >> is >> >worth typically two octane numbers increase in the effective octane of the >> >fuel. >> > >> >Remember that the intake valve face is exposed to combustion temperatures >> for >> >at least 50% of the cycle and reaches the same temperatures as the exhaust >> >face. Further the back side temperature reaches 600+F in a normal engine. >> >The majority of the intake valve cooling comes from HEATING the intake air >> >charge. >> > >> >Insulating the valve from most of the combustion temperature significantly >> >reduces the intake valve temperature and reduces the amount of heat the >> valve >> >can reject to the incoming charge. >> > >> >The intake valve coating is so important that Vizard recommends that if you >> >only coat one thing, it should be the intake valve. >> > > From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com Mon May 17 02:51:52 1999 From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 22:51:52 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor and water Message-ID: In a message dated 99-05-16 18:04:59 EDT, you write: << Now the turn has come to attach the O2 sensor. The following problems occure: Hi Nils, It has been my experience that water will kill the heater in a heated o2 sensor.....never tried an unheated version.........most water cooled exhaust manifolds have an area a couple inches long from the flange outwards where there is no water jacket, this is where I usually install them on port efi apps.....a tip though...if the cam is lumpy at all it will pull some water back down on the sensor at idle, killing it.......I have had good luck with a rpm switch and delay timer to start the heater in the sensor........I thought someone here was experimenting with the o2 sensor in the intake manifold exhaust crossover.....did anyone ever try this???? -Carl Summers SNIP> 1. If the O2-sensor gets in contact with water (in the exhaust manifold), will it be destryoed, how does it work and so on. 2. How near the exhaust port can it be placed to be 300-800 DegC hot? The exhaust manifold is water cooled and the outside of the cast iron thing is not more than you can touch with your hand and not get burned. Please let me know if anyone knows or thinks anything Thanks Nils Bj?rkman Sweden >> From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Mon May 17 03:01:25 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 23:01:25 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust - Meet Mr Helmholz Message-ID: To review the basics A Helmholtz resonant intake consists of a largish diameter intake pipe, a resonating volume (plenum) and individual cylinder runners. The individual cylinder runners are length/diameter tuned to the highest power rpm desired and the helmholz resonator extends the rpm range downward. Reverse it. Individual cylinder runners, resonating volume ( collector ) and a largish tunable pipe. Size the exhaust cylinder runners for the high rpm diameter and length. Fire them into a collector and then out a pipe. Most exhausts can be reduced to an inverted helmholz resonator. We all know about sizing the collector by running a high power run on a freshly painted collector and cutting the collector off an inch past where the paint burned off to establish the size. With the awareness that the exhaust system is essentially a helmholz resonator, we can progress past simple length diameter tuning and begin to draw strange and exotic systems that baffle and befuddle and yet work incredibly well. >From Advanced Engine Technology Heinz Heisler ISBN 0-340-56822-4 5.12.2 Helmholz Resonator Cylinder Charging C / A Helmholz N = --- / ------- 2pi V L V N = resonant frequency Hz C = velocity of speed of sound m/s ( at the temperature of the gas ) A = cross sectional area of tuned pipe m2 L = length of tuned pipe m V = Resonating volume m3 RPM to HZ Rpm x number of cylinders divided by 120 ( 4cycle ) 5.14.4 Velocity of sound in a gas. Excellent discussion of calculating the velocity of sound in a gas. In essence, the velocity is proportional to the square root of the absolute temperature. For an initial play value, he recommends 518 m/s for a 400c average system exhaust temperature. Your milage may vary . Th individual runners are included in the resonating volume as well as the collector "plenum". Again, looking at the exhaust as a Helmholz resonator, we immediately see that by varying the volume we can tune the resonant frequency. This can be done by using a small collector and coupling blind volumes in and out. It can also be accomplished by butterfly valve switching in/out tuned stubs or using a vacuum headlight actuator to vary the length of a slippy pipe stub coupled to the collector. We can also change the effective rpm that this resonance affects by varying the number of cylinders - say split banking such that we feed two or four or eight cylinders into each chamber. Finally, we can change the temperature of the exhaust and change the resonance. http://www.msdignition.com/2new.htm#Switch This switch just might be the ticket for thinking - if you can twist your sister and put on a strange hat. Water injection for exhaust gas temperature control - not anally extracted - but from a reputable manufacturer in production - just for another application. The control system only needs look at four items . Feed Forward or predictive: RPM and EGT at the resonator Feed Back or corrective : Camshaft angle and pressure applitude/sign Set point - sign and camshaft angle of peak pressure. Should be very doable if someone cared to try to take advantage of maximum scavenging thru a very wide region. But then - who would want to do that? Habaneras - not just for breakfast anymore From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 17 03:29:13 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 23:29:13 -0400 Subject: LT1 Spark info wanted Message-ID: That might work. I was thinking of some tables from the prom, but Diacom runs might show the general idea. Shannen Roger Heflin wrote: > > Do you want some diacom runs from a LT1 at cruise? > > Roger > > On Sun, 16 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > I'm looking for spark timing vs rpm, temp, map for an LT1 engine. > > I've got the notion that this engine uses a large amount of advance at > > cruise and would like to confirm it. Thanks. > > Shannen > > > > From twsharpe at mtco.com Mon May 17 03:34:49 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 23:34:49 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: My oil analysis was > 5000 ppm silicon (off scale) -- from sand thru the carb.. 300 yard sprinter in sand... Tom S Jim Davies wrote: > On Sat, 15 May 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > > > POR-15 is also recommended by the mfgr for the inside of blocks. Painting > > them is wise--condensation does happen in there! > > > I once had access to a well equipped test lab and they would routinely do > engine oil analysis for me. What was interesting [to me] was that although > the engine in question was several years old at the time, the silicon > leached out from casting was pretty high... From speakerconnection at home.com Mon May 17 04:00:02 1999 From: speakerconnection at home.com (Kevin) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:00:02 -0400 Subject: programming 101 Message-ID: Hey all, I'm a newbie to programming and am trying to learn as much as I can... I've been looking through the 101 files... but when I do a search for "101" I get the topics all over the place with no periodical order... by date, as they were written. Is there any way to get these articles by date so that I can read them as they were written? Regards, Kevin From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 17 04:00:15 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:00:15 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: Please do. I've heard some good results, and read more. I will be pulling the heads in a couple weeks, and I'll get a good look at the chambers and pistons at that time. This isn't a "quick and easy hp gain" like lots of gimmicks, there's a damn site more work goes into applying this stuff than installing a "fuel saving cow magnet". Shannen Programmer wrote: > > Shannen, > > Guess I'll have to look into this some more--I'm young and prejudiced to > gimmicks, so I'll have to do some research on this. Maybe I can find someone > that's working on this to throw on our dyno...be patient with me guys !! > > Lyndon IPTECH > -----Original Message----- > From: Shannen Durphey > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Sunday, May 16, 1999 7:17 PM > Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings > > >Well, in answer to the last question, ceramic thermal barrier coatings > >stick in the combustion chamber. They've been around for years, and > >are starting to gain popularity. Here's a company that makes DIY > >coatings, which some list members have used succesfully. > >http://www.deskmedia.com/~techline/Index.html > > > >I have thermal barrier coatings and dry film lubricant in an engine I > >run daily, and have had mixed results. DFL is available on piston > >skirts through TRW, and GM is now applying it to pistons for the 3.1l > >engine. > > > >Shannen > > > >Programmer wrote: > >> > >> What about seat contact width ? Seat/valve contact location ? What kind > of > >> coating sticks to anything in the combustion area ? > >> > >> Lyndon IPTECH > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Robert Harris > >> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >> Date: Sunday, May 16, 1999 9:47 AM > >> Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings > >> > >> >Dave Vizard reports that simply coating the combustion face of the > intake > >> >valve lowers the intake air charge temperature by 60 degree F or more > and > >> is > >> >worth typically two octane numbers increase in the effective octane of > the > >> >fuel. > >> > > >> >Remember that the intake valve face is exposed to combustion > temperatures > >> for > >> >at least 50% of the cycle and reaches the same temperatures as the > exhaust > >> >face. Further the back side temperature reaches 600+F in a normal > engine. > >> >The majority of the intake valve cooling comes from HEATING the intake > air > >> >charge. > >> > > >> >Insulating the valve from most of the combustion temperature > significantly > >> >reduces the intake valve temperature and reduces the amount of heat the > >> valve > >> >can reject to the incoming charge. > >> > > >> >The intake valve coating is so important that Vizard recommends that if > you > >> >only coat one thing, it should be the intake valve. > >> > > > From maxboost at earthlink.net Mon May 17 04:26:17 1999 From: maxboost at earthlink.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:26:17 -0400 Subject: I'm BACK...but NOW as a VENDOR Message-ID: Welcome Back Gar! Steve -----Original Message----- From: Gar Willis To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 10:52 AM Subject: I'm BACK...but NOW as a VENDOR From maxboost at earthlink.net Mon May 17 04:26:20 1999 From: maxboost at earthlink.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:26:20 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: It is a very common thing to do on a race engine that is rebuilt on a regular basis that is cast iron. When I worked at Electramotive all of the cast iron engines were painted to speed up the clean up time during rebuilds and to prevent casting sand from being shaken out of the knooks and crannies. Yes you can grind out and polish the inside, which we did to the major nasties, but we still painted it. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Programmer To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 8:15 PM Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >Ted, > >It's been done in the past--I don't know if any real "dyno'd" results ever >made some publications, but >the best results wouldn't have made the extra work worth the bother. > >Lyndon >-----Original Message----- >From: Stowe, Ted-SEA >To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' >Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 12:40 AM >Subject: RE: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings > > >>here's a thought, has anyone ever given any thought to painting the inside >>of an engine ? before you hit delete, consider how easy it is for dirt etc >>to stick to the inside of the block, under a microscope the surface must be >>like velcro. I suspect oil would return a little quicker to the pan. just a >>thought, you can flame me now. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Bruce Plecan [mailto:nacelp at bright.net] >>Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 9:31 PM >>To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu >>Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >> >> >>Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for what >>they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. >> Has any one run any endurance tests?. >>Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. >>Bruce >> > > From maxboost at earthlink.net Mon May 17 04:26:23 1999 From: maxboost at earthlink.net (Steve) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:26:23 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: When you test the same engine combination over and over you find that the oil temp is within a few degrees for that given combination. If it is different and the combination is the same then something is wrong or there was a change. I find this very easy to believe as I have witnessed hundreds of dyno runs over the years. My turbo V6 I just built with coatings takes twice as long to warm up now that it is coated. Also I have seen a 200 degree F increase in EGT at low speed. I haven't done full load testing yet so I can't report on that yet. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Programmer To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 8:24 PM Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >Greg, > >The only problem with testing like that is the motor had to be torn down to >perform the experiment. I'd put little faith in a 15 degree change when a >complete teardown would have had to be done to perform the work. > >Lyndon IP TECH >-----Original Message----- >From: Greg Hermann >To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 8:11 AM >Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings > > >>>Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for >what >>>they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. >>> Has any one run any endurance tests?. >>>Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. >>>Bruce >> >>A fellow I spoke with at HPC told me that they ran a dyno test of a fairly >>typical hipo 350 CID Chebby first with no coatings, then with coating only >>on the piston crowns. Said that--with no other changes, the steady state >>oil temperature at sustained full load dropped 15 degrees F. >> >>Greg >> >> >> > > From gderian at oh.verio.com Mon May 17 04:28:31 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:28:31 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: I don't really know how these mufflers work. I think the Mitsubishi had a vacuum valve that blocked part of the muffler's outlet. This changed the tuning and made it quieter. According to this month's Car and Driver, the Maxima has a spring loaded valve that opens up at some set backpressure. There is no active control. Gary Derian > 1) > Gary, > can you elaborate on how that muffler varies? > > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > > Adding backpressure just for the sake of it won't improve low speed torque. > > Having small diameter ports which happen to add backpressure will. Its not > > the backpressure that improves torque. Its the low rpm tuned components > > that do. Now, having a variable restrictor that quiets the car when > > cruising is a good idea. The new Nissan Maxima has such a muffler. > > Mitsubishi 3000's have had them in the past. > > From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 17 05:14:14 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:14:14 -0400 Subject: I'm BACK...but NOW as a VENDOR Message-ID: -> Hey maties, (and the rest of the diy resident "stoidi") My, my. A fetid breath from the past, toidi-boy. From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 17 05:14:18 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:14:18 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: -> And when the paint all flakes off, and ends up in the oil pan... Doesn't seem to be an issue, at least if the block is properly clean before you paint. I prefer white epoxy myself. From hobiegary at earthlink.net Mon May 17 05:39:12 1999 From: hobiegary at earthlink.net (GARY) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:39:12 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust Message-ID: I just found a July, 1969 issue of Car and Driver magazine. It has a "max blue" rs camaro on the cover. A story of a Car and Driver tuned Camaro is in there with a psychedelic picture of one. On the back cover, a very cool ad. for a super bee 440 with 4.11 rear end and a four bolt hood. There is an advertisement for goodyear tires that looks like something out of the movie "Austin Powers, International Man of Mystery." -- GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net From AL8001 at aol.com Mon May 17 05:53:05 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 01:53:05 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor and water Message-ID: In a message dated 99-05-16 22:55:13 EDT, EFISYSTEMS at aol.com writes: >It has been my experience that water will kill the heater in a heated >o2 sensor.....never tried an unheated version...... It will kill a unheated one as well. Early EFI Chevy Astro vans had a recall involving replacement of the y pipe. The Astro has its O2 sensor on the top of the pipe ~ 18" from the engine. Condensation during a cold start/warmup would drip down onto the sensor causing the coating to crack. The replacement pipe had a sheetmetal shield to collect the water. Some vans even had one exhaust manifold replaced to accomidate the sensor. ( The old sensor was left inplace but it's wire was cliped off. Harold From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Mon May 17 06:50:05 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 02:50:05 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: Ok guys I have sat back and waited for awhile for you all to get this straight. The sensor "compares the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream with the amount in the outside air. The reason it doesn't seem to work this way is two or three fold. 1. The sensor needs to be at a "reasonably" stable temp before its output is "reasonably" stable. 2.The sensor only works in a very narrow A/F ratio. As the amount of oxygen climbs above a certain point it can't drop the voltage any lower and the oppisite is just as true. The output voltage is also limited by the design of the sensor. After a point removing more oxygen can't effect a voltage change. Much has been said and made of the "wide band" sensors too. After reading much on the "wide band" sensor it works exactly the same way as a "normal" sensor. The difference is through outside influences, either a standard sensor or electronics atached to the output, are used to create a "current pump" when the sensor cross stoich the "outside" control device switches the current in the sensor so that it breaks oxygen atoms away from the oxidized gases in the exhaust. By know at what rate this happens chemically we can use the output of the sensor to "roughly" ( better than what we started with) determine the amount of oxidized fuel (and other such nasties as NOx) in the exhaust stream. Notice the word normal used to desribe combustion as we currently use it on a daily basis. This doesn't include off the wall or experimental engines which use some sort of modifided combustion cycle. Why not you ask? This is going to get very long if I have to get into everything that can effect this. Simply put: Within the range of "normal" combustion, a little either side of stoich, the leaner the mixture the greater the amount of free oxygen in the exhaust stream as there isn't enough fuel to combine with all the oxygen in the cylinder. As the mixture is enrichened the amount of free oxygen drops for exactly the opposite reason. If you go to the point of misfire all bets are off. Although a lean cylinder will tend to dump more free oxygen into the exhaust than a rich one as until the mixture is extremely rich some part of the air charge ingested will be used as the fuel attemps to oxidize ( burn) whereas in a extremely lean cylinder next to nothing oxidizes as our current ignition system cannot produce the energy needed to properly promote combustion of these mixtures. Testing a sensor with argon and other similar gases doesn't work very well unless they are in an enclosure with only the tip of the sensor exposed to the "inert" gas. I won't try to get into ther chemistry involved at this moment as I will have to research the chemistry of inert gases before I can explain it in those terms. At this point my chemistry is rusty to say the least. At least that part of it which doesn't deal with the above as I use this nearly every day. OK let the flames begin!! LOL :-) Scott From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 17 11:04:08 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 07:04:08 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: From: G. Scott Ponton Subject: Re: O2 voltz > Ok guys I have sat back and waited for awhile for you all to get this > straight. The sensor "compares the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream > with the amount in the outside air. The reason it doesn't seem to work this > way is two or three fold. Then why do I get any voltage reading when using the heater, and in free air?. Bruce From chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca Mon May 17 12:03:53 1999 From: chanwe at ecf.utoronto.ca (Wen Yen Chan) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:03:53 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: On Sat, 15 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > For the lack of anything else to do, I hooked the heated O2 up, and was > looking at the voltage drop across a sensor resistor, I been thinking of > using. > As the heater warmed up, the voltage drop across the resistor changed, > just meaning the heater was drawing less current. > I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no output, > to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just in > atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 right, > nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. I think you have got it backwards. The sensor should be reading a very low voltage as there is no difference in the concentration of O2 on both sides of the sensor. Wen > Did I need to load the sensor?. > The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully > swing high?. > Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to reference > to?. > Grumpy > > From kb4mxo at mwt.net Mon May 17 12:11:53 1999 From: kb4mxo at mwt.net (Steve Gorkowski) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:11:53 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: So what you are saying is that what Bruce is doing wasting his time ? He can't read AFR off the 14.7 value? If you could give me the range AFR numbers when sensor is corrected for temp or are you saying this will not help expand the range? Can you define very narrow range (numbers please)? Have a great day Steve G. Scott Ponton wrote: > Ok guys I have sat back and waited for awhile for you all to get this > straight. The sensor "compares the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream > with the amount in the outside air. The reason it doesn't seem to work this > way is two or three fold. > > 1. The sensor needs to be at a "reasonably" stable temp before its output is > "reasonably" stable. > > 2.The sensor only works in a very narrow A/F ratio. As the amount of oxygen > climbs above a certain point it can't drop the voltage any lower and the > oppisite is just as true. The output voltage is also limited by the design > of the sensor. After a point removing more oxygen can't effect a voltage > change. > > Much has been said and made of the "wide band" sensors too. After reading > much on the "wide band" sensor it works exactly the same way as a "normal" > sensor. The difference is through outside influences, either a standard > sensor or electronics atached to the output, are used to create a "current > pump" when the sensor cross stoich the "outside" control device switches the > current in the sensor so that it breaks oxygen atoms away from the oxidized > gases in the exhaust. By know at what rate this happens chemically we can > use the output of the sensor to "roughly" ( better than what we started > with) determine the amount of oxidized fuel (and other such nasties as NOx) > in the exhaust stream. > > Notice the word normal used to desribe combustion as we currently use it on > a daily basis. This doesn't include off the wall or experimental engines > which use some sort of modifided combustion cycle. Why not you ask? This is > going to get very long if I have to get into everything that can effect > this. Simply put: > > Within the range of "normal" combustion, a little either side of stoich, the > leaner the mixture the greater the amount of free oxygen in the exhaust > stream as there isn't enough fuel to combine with all the oxygen in the > cylinder. As the mixture is enrichened the amount of free oxygen drops for > exactly the opposite reason. > > If you go to the point of misfire all bets are off. Although a lean cylinder > will tend to dump more free oxygen into the exhaust than a rich one as until > the mixture is extremely rich some part of the air charge ingested will be > used as the fuel attemps to oxidize ( burn) whereas in a extremely lean > cylinder next to nothing oxidizes as our current ignition system cannot > produce the energy needed to properly promote combustion of these mixtures. > > Testing a sensor with argon and other similar gases doesn't work very > well unless they are in an enclosure with only the tip of the sensor exposed > to the "inert" gas. I won't try to get into ther chemistry involved at this > moment as I will have to research the chemistry of inert gases before I can > explain it in those terms. At this point my chemistry is rusty to say the > least. At least that part of it which doesn't deal with the above as I use > this nearly every day. > > OK let the flames begin!! LOL :-) > > Scott From kenkelly at lucent.com Mon May 17 12:58:48 1999 From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:58:48 -0400 Subject: LT1 Spark info wanted Message-ID: Shannen, I can print out the tables for the stock 94-95 PCM for you. The advance curves look different for the AUtomatic and Manual, which do you want? Is 94 - 95 a good year? I have the 96 Auto Image too, but I'll have to confirm that I have that table loction for the 96. Ken Shannen Durphey wrote: > > I'm looking for spark timing vs rpm, temp, map for an LT1 engine. > I've got the notion that this engine uses a large amount of advance at > cruise and would like to confirm it. Thanks. > Shannen From flying.monkey at juno.com Mon May 17 13:57:00 1999 From: flying.monkey at juno.com (WAYNE JOHNSON) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:57:00 -0400 Subject: I'm BACK...but NOW as a VENDOR Message-ID: Welcome back Gar. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From pford at qnx.com Mon May 17 15:00:21 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (pford at qnx.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 11:00:21 -0400 Subject: 2.5L 730bins ?? Message-ID: Hi all: does anyone have a bin for a 7730 with a 2.5L manual trans? thanks for any help -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From dcsmith at bytes.net Mon May 17 15:12:19 1999 From: dcsmith at bytes.net (DC Smith) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 11:12:19 -0400 Subject: switching eprom Message-ID: Anybody got any idea who the first person was to do this?? ... I heard of it and thought it'd be neat so I sat down and figured it out.. Anyhoo.. I've done this many times. I used 10K resistors to pull the extra address lines high and a binary pushwheel or thumbwheel switch to switch the different addresses (pull the line low). A dip switch setup will do the same thing. Just think in binary terms. :^) I load the buffer in my chip program with as many programs the prom I am using will hold using the (27256 = 8 cals to emulate a 2732, 27128 = (4) 4K programs) program (and set it to not clear the buffer before file load). (RomMax on a Pentium) I just offset the programs the file size +1 bit, when I load em. (I've got a PB-10 at work and find the RomMax more to my liking) On a software/programmability issue.. I don't think you can program the blocks individually using a .. say 27256 algorithm to emulate a 2732 (8 programs), since *my* programmer will write from FF's to 00's on any unused areas.. and it won't pass a blank check.. Maybe I can change this in the software setup, but I don't remember being able to do it. I can at least bypass the "blank check before programming" in the software. BTW, Hot Rod Power Tour is sposed to be at Gateway International Raceway (St. Louis) this thursday. I _hope_ to get my heads back on, motor back in, and be there, boosted and ready. This SFI'd ride ought to really honk after this little tune up. :^) Machine shop's still got the heads.. gonna be close.. Hope to pick em up in the morning after work.. I feel a cold comin on.. *********************************************************************** Dan Smith 84 Regal 12.13 at 112 GSCA# 1459 St.Charles, Missouri mailto:dcsmith at bytes.net http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral *********************************************************************** From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Mon May 17 16:11:37 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 12:11:37 -0400 Subject: KS Attenuation, or Dampening Message-ID: GARY wrote: > > > > > First of all, isn't the KS a piezo sensor? If so, I think DC resistance > > doen't really matter. > > Yes Ord, it is but the ECU freaks out if it notices that the KS circuit > is not present so I assume it is looking for a certain current flow with > an applied voltage. The knock sensor is a microphone essentially -- it produces voltage. It is not a driven sensor like a temp or TPS. Some GM ECMs test the knock sensor when certain requirements are met: Engine warmed up, throttle open a large amount, RPM low (high load condition). The ECM briefly advances spark and listens for knock. If it doesn't hear it it sets an ESC code (40 something). This test only happens once per startup, if it happens at all. This applies to 16136965 ECM ('91 Caprice, straight from the service manual), but probably applies to lots others. > > If you want to attenuate, you could build a divider > > around it - two resistors in series accross the element, leave one wire > > connected to the KS, connect the other to the junction of the resistors. > > > > If it is really damping that you want, instead of just attenuation, then you > > need to build a low pass filter. > > I am unclear on the deference between the two. Attenuation is reducing > the signal's amplitude (desired), dampening is reducing the signal's > magnitude? What's that? I don't know what I want! I want to see of > the ECU will stop retarding my timing every time the piezo reacts to a > non-detonation engine noise. A piezo sensor is very high impedance. In that sense it's like an O2 sensor, you have to be careful what kind of stuff you hang on it's output or you'll degrade the signal. If you build a voltage divider you'll have to use really large resistors, like 10x whatever the resistance of the sensor is. You can measure the sensor with a digital meter. I think piezo elements are in the megohm range. To hook it up get 2 big resistors and place them in series. Hook the knock sensor output to one end, ground the other end (at the block, close to the knock sensor), and hook the ECM/ESC module to the middle connection: R1 R2 KS output -----/\/\/-----/\/\/------gnd | |-------------to ECM If the resistors are large enough the attenuation is given by r2/(r2+r1). If you can find a high resistance potentiometer (again like 10x the KS resistance) it's even easier and adjustable. Connect the end terminals to KS and gnd as above, send the middle (variable) connector to the ECM. --steve > > I don't quite follow your description of how to build the divider > either. Your help is appreciated! > > -- > GARY mailto:hobiegary at earthlink.net -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 17 17:08:31 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:08:31 -0400 Subject: horse power/acceleration Message-ID: ALSO, I've created a HP vs Veh Weight cross-reference spreadsheet at http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/dragtable.htm ... Don't remember if I posted the formula used to calc but I believe I may have... I normally do... Hope ya like.... There may be a mis calc(type-o in pasting the formulas in the spreadsheet) for the heavier vehicles... am workin on correcting... Later! Todd....!! Jeff W wrote: > > dear sir > I am writing to you because I am looking for the correct calculation/formula > for finding the approximate horse power conversion from vehicle weight and > acceleration curve. > I am presently in Vancouver community college, in Vancouver B.C and my > instructor (Dave William's) gave me your e-mail address feeling that you may > be of some help to me. > > vehicle weight + acceleration curve + some other things I don't know= > approximate HP at RPM. > thank you! > Jeff Weinberger > sierraj at home.com From ScottyCBoy at aol.com Mon May 17 17:32:27 1999 From: ScottyCBoy at aol.com (ScottyCBoy at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:32:27 -0400 Subject: Board group buy Message-ID: I'm in at Two boards Let me know where to send the check Scott From thergen at svn.net Mon May 17 17:39:55 1999 From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:39:55 -0400 Subject: KS Attenuation, or Dampening Message-ID: On Mon, 17 May 1999, steve ravet wrote: > A piezo sensor is very high impedance. In that sense it's like an O2 > sensor, you have to be careful what kind of stuff you hang on it's > output or you'll degrade the signal. If you build a voltage divider > you'll have to use really large resistors, like 10x whatever the > resistance of the sensor is. You can measure the sensor with a digital > meter. I think piezo elements are in the megohm range. To hook it up > get 2 big resistors and place them in series. Hook the knock sensor > output to one end, ground the other end (at the block, close to the > knock sensor), and hook the ECM/ESC module to the middle connection: > > > R1 R2 > KS output -----/\/\/-----/\/\/------gnd > | > |-------------to ECM > > If the resistors are large enough the attenuation is given by > r2/(r2+r1). > > If you can find a high resistance potentiometer (again like 10x the KS > resistance) it's even easier and adjustable. Connect the end terminals > to KS and gnd as above, send the middle (variable) connector to the > ECM. > Don't some of the ecms look for a particular resistance to ground from the knock sensor input to ground (from memory, 3.9K Ohms for some sensors)? There's probably a range of resistance that will avoid setting a code. If R2 in parallel with R1+Rks is too high, will that cause a fault code? Thanks, Tom From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 17 17:52:28 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:52:28 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: Nope. Not backwards, I retried it several times with the same results. Bruce > > For the lack of anything else to do, I hooked the heated O2 up, and was > > looking at the voltage drop across a sensor resistor, I been thinking of > > using. > > As the heater warmed up, the voltage drop across the resistor changed, > > just meaning the heater was drawing less current. > > I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no output, > > to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just in > > atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 right, > > nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. > I think you have got it backwards. The sensor should be reading a very low > voltage as there is no difference in the concentration of O2 on both sides > of the sensor. > Wen > > Did I need to load the sensor?. > > The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully > > swing high?. > > Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to reference > > to?. > > Grumpy From realsquash at yahoo.com Mon May 17 18:09:56 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:09:56 -0400 Subject: Board group buy Message-ID: What is this for and how much is it? andy --- ScottyCBoy at aol.com wrote: > I'm in at Two boards > > Let me know where to send the check > > Scott > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Mon May 17 18:31:28 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:31:28 -0400 Subject: new auto scam Message-ID: http://portalmarket.com/force.html Formula Two Power Paks are specially formulated to follow Formula One Power Paks in application. Placed in your air intake path, their catalyst will help keep your engine at peak operating efficiency Each Performance Pak will be a uniquely effective combustion enhancer for 3 months or 3,000 miles. These 4 Performance Paks should last 12,000 miles or about a full year's normal driving. With continued use, they will enable you to experience all the power your engine was designed to deliver, protect your investment and enjoy new driving economy. From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 17 18:34:19 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:34:19 -0400 Subject: 2.5L 730bins ?? Message-ID: Is this wishing aloud?. I don't see this combination at all, anywhere, 2.5 anything with a 730.. If not a wish, a MY, or Platform? Bruce Subject: 2.5L 730bins ?? > Hi all: > does anyone have a bin for a 7730 with a 2.5L manual trans? > thanks for any help > -- > Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com > QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews > (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From orin at wolfenet.com Mon May 17 18:56:32 1999 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:56:32 -0400 Subject: BOUNCE diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: Admin request of type /\buns\w*b/i at line 4 (fwd) Message-ID: This was bouncing due to a bad majordomo filter: > From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: The missing part - before Mr Helmholz > Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:44:04 GMT > Organization: Bob - the Computer Guy > Message-ID: <37442ade.3820479 at smtp.uia.net> > X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In order to tune and use the acoustical pressure wave to our advantage, we > must first be able to detect it. Traditionally, dyno time has been used to > tune such acoustics - the math involved and the radically changing physicals > underneath it - are approaching unsolvable. Not that there is not programs > to do this ( and they are getting quite good - but consider selling your first > born to afford one ) but they rely on excellent data collection and feed back > to converge to an optimum solution - an extensive data collection effort that > may not be available to DIY > To measure the effect, we only need a camshaft angle sensors ( simpler to > determine which TDC we are looking at ) and a sensitive pressure sender. The > angular sensor tells us phase and the pressure tells us sign and amplitude. > The pressure sensor tells us pressure at the port. Flaw is that we need to > sense the pressure at the port and few affordable sensitive sensors can > withstand the temperature at the exhaust valve. The first proposed solution > is to us a small diameter tube from the collector to the sensor approximately > the same length as the runner. This delay line should place the acoustic wave > approximately the same at the sensor as at the valve. > We now can measure the desired effect - an acoustics pressure wave arriving at > the exhaust port. Now on to system concept to base our control mechanism on. From pford at qnx.com Mon May 17 20:15:36 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (pford at qnx.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:15:36 -0400 Subject: 2.5L 730bins ?? Message-ID: Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: > > Is this wishing aloud?. > I don't see this combination at all, anywhere, 2.5 anything with a 730.. isn't a 92 cavalier(sp?) a 2.5? if not what is nearist to 2.25L > If not a wish, a MY, or Platform? may have been wishfull thinking 8-). all I know abut gms is what I've learned here and that they tend to leave cast iron on the road when I drive them 8)) I want to put a 730 into a 61 land rover ( get rid of lucas, and a cracked intake and carb) I missed a trail and drove off a 4' verticle drop and landed on a tree stump that pushed the motor up into the hood > Bruce > > Subject: 2.5L 730bins ?? > > Hi all: > > does anyone have a bin for a 7730 with a 2.5L manual trans? > > thanks for any help > > -- > > Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com > > QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > > (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews > > (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > > -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 17 20:42:08 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:42:08 -0400 Subject: 2.5L 730bins ?? Message-ID: You have a choice of two bins, but both are automatics, (neither of which I happen to have), BTW was a 1227727. ASLW 16149591 ASLX 16150970 Maybe someone can turn something up Bruce > Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: > > Is this wishing aloud?. > > I don't see this combination at all, anywhere, 2.5 anything with a 730.. > isn't a 92 cavalier(sp?) a 2.5? if not what is nearist to 2.25L > > If not a wish, a MY, or Platform? > may have been wishfull thinking 8-). all I know abut gms is what I've learned > here and that they tend to leave cast iron on the road when I drive them 8)) > I want to put a 730 into a 61 land rover ( get rid of lucas, and a cracked > intake and carb) I missed a trail and drove off a 4' verticle drop and landed > on a tree stump that pushed the motor up into the hood > > Bruce > > Subject: 2.5L 730bins ?? > > > Hi all: > > > does anyone have a bin for a 7730 with a 2.5L manual trans? > > > thanks for any help > > > Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com From RRauscher at nni.com Mon May 17 23:04:58 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 19:04:58 -0400 Subject: switching eprom Message-ID: > > On a software/programmability issue.. > I don't think you can program the blocks individually using a .. say >27256 algorithm to emulate a 2732 (8 programs), since *my* programmer >will write from FF's to 00's on any unused areas.. and it won't pass a >blank check.. Maybe I can change this in the software setup, but I don't >remember being able to do it. I can at least bypass the "blank check >before programming" in the software. I keep forgetting about stuff like this. I wrote & built my own programmer so it's not a problem. With DOS, you can do a binary file copy and cat the 8 or so bins together. Use the /B switch and the + sign to do this: copy /b file1 + file2 + ... + file8 allfiles.out HTH BobR. >*********************************************************************** >Dan Smith 84 Regal 12.13 at 112 GSCA# 1459 >St.Charles, Missouri >mailto:dcsmith at bytes.net >http://www.tetranet.net/users/morepoweral >*********************************************************************** From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Tue May 18 01:15:09 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:15:09 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: > At 04:02 PM 5/15/99 -0400, you wrote: > >For the lack of anything else to do, I hooked the heated O2 up, and was > >looking at the voltage drop across a sensor resistor, I been thinking of > >using. > > As the heater warmed up, the voltage drop across the resistor changed, > >just meaning the heater was drawing less current. > > I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no output, > >to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just in > >atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 right, > >nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. > > Did I need to load the sensor?. > > The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully > >swing high?. > > Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to reference > >to?. > > Bad thing about O2 sensors is they aren't truly O2 sensors... they are HC > sensors. > In pure O2, the sensor should keep a low voltage. In an environment rich > with HC (IE propane, unburnt fuel etc) they should go .9-1 Volt. Maybe ion sensors, the HC molecules can easily diassociate at high temperatures, probably more so with O2 helping. I'm not sure at what temp. 02 ionizes. Alex From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 18 01:31:50 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:31:50 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: Per several off list letters I checked/doubled checked/thriple checked grounds and power for this bit of history. I noted the following, using a 4 wire heated O2 sensor. (General Motors) With no power to heater, 0.0v. For approximately 30secs 0.0, and then quickly rose to .1v, then then slowly climbed higher. When hot, there was a nominal voltage of .28v at the O2 sensor lead wire. Exposing this sensor to 97% O2 (Medical Grade O2, as tested this am) it drifted to .030.-.032v. Exposing this sensor to the Butane from a cigarette lighter that was unlit immediately responded with a display of .7v...... Your O2 sensor is a HC Sensor... Bruce and the staff at CSH, HQ From markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu Tue May 18 01:49:12 1999 From: markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu (Mark Wilcutts) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:49:12 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: There are two papers up on my website: http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/efi/SAE920289/ http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/efi/SAE930352/ These two should answer most of your questions. On Sun, 16 May 1999, rr wrote: > P.S. A while back there was a link to an epa article posted, > interesting reading, I'll see if I can find it. From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 18 01:51:18 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:51:18 -0400 Subject: LT1 Spark info wanted Message-ID: Manual, 94-95 fine, much obliged. Shannen Ken Kelly wrote: > > Shannen, > I can print out the tables for the stock 94-95 PCM for you. > The advance curves look different for the AUtomatic and > Manual, which do you want? Is 94 - 95 a good year? I have > the 96 Auto Image too, but I'll have to confirm that I have > that table loction for the 96. > > Ken > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > I'm looking for spark timing vs rpm, temp, map for an LT1 engine. > > I've got the notion that this engine uses a large amount of advance at > > cruise and would like to confirm it. Thanks. > > Shannen From RRauscher at nni.com Tue May 18 01:53:03 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:53:03 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz/epa article Message-ID: >This sounds correct, a lean (o2 rich), condition gives a low >reading, while too much fuel (no o2), gives a high reading. > >Run some propane over it to block out o2, and the reading >should go up. Don't know what I was thinking here, an unlite torch doesn't work, there's still o2 in it. Try a lite torch, works a treat. Goes right up to >900mV. >BobR. > >P.S. A while back there was a link to an epa article posted, >interesting reading, I'll see if I can find it. I found a referance to the article, but it's not there any more. If anyone has it, maybe contact Bruce. Thanks, BobR. -- From markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu Tue May 18 01:55:24 1999 From: markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu (Mark Wilcutts) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:55:24 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: Sorry that should be http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/~markw/efi/SAE920289/ http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/~markw/efi/SAE930352/ On Mon, 17 May 1999, Mark Wilcutts wrote: > There are two papers up on my website: > http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/efi/SAE920289/ > http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/efi/SAE930352/ > > These two should answer most of your questions. > > On Sun, 16 May 1999, rr wrote: > > > P.S. A while back there was a link to an epa article posted, > > interesting reading, I'll see if I can find it. > > > From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 18 02:16:51 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:16:51 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Plecan To: Sent: Monday, May 17, 1999 9:32 PM Subject: O2 Volts > Per several off list letters I checked/doubled checked/thriple checked > grounds and power for this bit of history. > I noted the following, using a 4 wire heated O2 sensor. (General Motors) > With no power to heater, 0.0v. For approximately 30secs 0.0, and then > quickly rose to .1v, then then slowly climbed higher. > When hot, there was a nominal voltage of .28v at the O2 sensor lead wire. > Exposing this sensor to 97% O2 (Medical Grade O2, as tested this am) it > drifted to .030.-.032v. > Exposing this sensor to the Butane from a cigarette lighter that was unlit > immediately responded with a display of .7v...... > Your O2 sensor is a HC Sensor... > Bruce and the staff at CSH, HQ > Try feeding it co2 and see what it does - same as butane. The sensor is an oxygen battery. If both electrodes are equal in oxygen you get 0 volts, more or less (let's say .25 from your open air heated test). If one (the one "outside" the exhaust is higher in O2 than the inner one, you get a higher voltage. If the inside is higher in O2 you get lower voltage. Use anything other than oxygen - CO2, Argon, Nitrogen, Butane, or Propane. This is the way the unit is designed - so this is how it SHOULD work. When running at stoich, there is little O2 in the exhaust. The voltage produced at this point is programmed into the ECU. If the voltage goes low, the ECU richens the mixture. When the voltage goes high it leans the mixture, and the ECU counts crossing points to determine if the system is correcting properly. > From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Tue May 18 02:33:40 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:33:40 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: >Then why do I get any voltage reading when using the heater, and in free >air?. >Bruce The sensor isn't up to operating temp yet. The sensor needs to be above 600 F for it to operate properly. I don't know how hot the heaters get these things but it is very unlikely it is anywhere near 600 F. The purpose of the heater is to help the initial warm up time of the sensor from cold. After the exhaust is up to temp it is not needed. >So what you are saying is that what Bruce is doing wasting his time ? He can't >read AFR off the 14.7 value? If you could give me the range AFR numbers when >sensor is corrected for temp or are you saying this will not help expand the >range? Can you define very narrow range (numbers please)? >Have a great day >Steve No I'm not saying he is wasting his time. If the temp of the exhaust stream is known it makes it very easy to build a table which allows you to temp compensate the sensor reading. The problem is even with temp compensation a "normal" sensor doesn't have a great enough range to be useful for "power" tuning. Even a "wide band" sensor is limited for power tuning. Because of the way it work an HEGO sensors range can be "extended" to the point of reading A/F ratios greater than ( or less than depending on your view) 13:1 But you still have the same problem. It needs to be temperature compensated. Also the "outside" current pump control has to be calibrated to known values for the richer A/F ratios before it can be used as most seem to want to use it. Narrow range is from about 15.5:1 to 14.0:1. Have any on the list tried using a O2 sensor to adjust the idle A/F on a carberated engine? Long before you get to even a 10% misfire rate in the lean direction the sensor reads >.2 volt. The same is true in the rich direction. Back the mixture screw out 1/4 to 1/2 a turn from lean best idle and the sensor goes abovr .85 v. But as I pointed out in a earlier post the sensor doesn't read on a linear basis. It's not because the sensor isn't linear. It's because combustion and O2 content in the exhaust stream aren't linear. From ~ 9.0:1 to ~ 15:1 the sensor reads .90 v. or greater. At ~ 8:1 and richer the sensor will drop again to >.20 v. as rich misfire is induced. On the other hand ar most A/F ratios of > ~15:1 the sensor will read >.20 v. >> I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no output, >> to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just in >> atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 right, >> nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. >I think you have got it backwards. The sensor should be reading a very low >voltage as there is no difference in the concentration of O2 on both sides >of the sensor. In pure O2 the sensor should read low. The design of the sensor doesn't allow it to "reverse" the process. In other words , if there is more O2 on the exhaust side than the air side it won't read higher. If you isolate the tip and flood the air side with pure O2 then the reading will climb. Scott P.S. Please excuse the typos. I get in a hurry and sometimes correct them in my head when I reread them. From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 18 02:38:37 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:38:37 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Nope. Not backwards, I retried it several times with the same results. > Bruce Think he meant predicted results, not actual. I haven't picked up on the split in information, but traditional teaching has it that less O2 on sensor side=higher output voltage. Try putting just the wire side in O2 and see if voltage climbs by a tenth or two. Shannen > > > > For the lack of anything else to do, I hooked the heated O2 up, and was > > > looking at the voltage drop across a sensor resistor, I been thinking of > > > using. > > > As the heater warmed up, the voltage drop across the resistor changed, > > > just meaning the heater was drawing less current. > > > I had hooked the scope probe across the O2, and cold there was no > output, > > > to be expected, but as it warmed up the output swung toward, .2v. Just > in > > > atmospheric conditions. Ok, so then it should go way high in pure O2 > right, > > > nope went a little over .3, and stopped there. > > > I think you have got it backwards. The sensor should be reading a very low > > voltage as there is no difference in the concentration of O2 on both sides > > of the sensor. > > > Wen > > > > Did I need to load the sensor?. > > > The heater doesn't go to a high enough temperature for the O2 to fully > > > swing high?. > > > Does the engine side need to see a slight amount of pressure to > reference > > > to?. > > > Grumpy From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Tue May 18 02:39:44 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:39:44 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: Exposing the sensor to butane cut off the oxygen to the element. This is what caused the reading to go high. This is something I started to touch on in yesterdays post. It has to do with the molecular weight of the gas being used to flush the exhaust side of the sensor. If the gas used doesn't have enough "weight" to "push" the oxygen out of the way the reading doesn't change. Scott From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Tue May 18 02:50:07 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:50:07 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: Very good papers!!!! Scott From twsharpe at mtco.com Tue May 18 02:59:03 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:59:03 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust - Meet Mr Helmholz Message-ID: All well states... If you missed it, go thru your trash and read it again! Robert Harris wrote: > To review the basics A Helmholtz resonant intake consists of a largish > diameter intake pipe, a resonating volume (plenum) and individual cylinder > runners. The individual cylinder runners are length/diameter tuned to the > highest power rpm desired and the helmholz resonator extends the rpm range > downward. > > Reverse it. Individual cylinder runners, resonating volume ( collector ) and > a largish tunable pipe. Size the exhaust cylinder runners for the high rpm > diameter and length. Fire them into a collector and then out a pipe. > > or using a vacuum > headlight actuator to vary the length of a slippy pipe stub coupled to the > collector. Robert, I really like the slippy pipes... could you figure out the length from the sound produced? Sort of a knock sensor approach... or use lookup tables like fuel, spark, exhaust position?? Just trying to simplify the process.. Do we need a stepper motor headlight actuator.... Tom S From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 18 03:20:38 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:20:38 -0400 Subject: 2.5L 730bins ?? Message-ID: pford at qnx.com wrote: > > Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: > > > > Is this wishing aloud?. > > I don't see this combination at all, anywhere, 2.5 anything with a 730.. > > isn't a 92 cavalier(sp?) a 2.5? if not what is nearist to 2.25L No. 2.5 and Cavalier were never offered together. 92 Cav shows up with 16134847 ecm, and 2.2l engine. Shannen From punisher454 at hotmail.com Tue May 18 03:28:01 1999 From: punisher454 at hotmail.com (The Punisher) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:28:01 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: >here's a thought, has anyone ever given any thought to painting the inside >of an engine ? before you hit delete, consider how easy it is for dirt etc >to stick to the inside of the block, under a microscope the surface must be >like velcro. I suspect oil would return a little quicker to the pan. just a >thought, you can flame me now. > I paint ALL My engines that I build. I DO NOT use standard engine paint for the inside however. I use electric motor insulation paint, the stuff they paint the windings with. It is very tough and maintains a slick surface even after several years of use. The oil in my engines just run off the stuff and hardly even leave any film behind. They usualy have this stuff at electric motor rebuilding shops. I have used it on the exterior too, but it does not seem to have the same durability. I have NEVER yet seen any signs of peeling or flaking inside the engine. >Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for what >they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. > Has any one run any endurance tests?. >Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. >Bruce I have also used thermal barrier on piston domes,combustion chambers, valves and exhause ports. It sure seems to work for me. I have built some small blocks that were similar but the ones with the thermal coatings seem less prone to detonation. Another advantage (especialy on the street), is the piston expands less, therefore you can run a tighter piston/bore clearence, which means less blow-by,less wear, less leakage which all adds up to a better engine. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 18 03:53:02 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:53:02 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Per several off list letters I checked/doubled checked/thriple checked > grounds and power for this bit of history. > I noted the following, using a 4 wire heated O2 sensor. (General Motors) > With no power to heater, 0.0v. For approximately 30secs 0.0, and then > quickly rose to .1v, then then slowly climbed higher. > When hot, there was a nominal voltage of .28v at the O2 sensor lead wire. > Exposing this sensor to 97% O2 (Medical Grade O2, as tested this am) it > drifted to .030.-.032v. > Exposing this sensor to the Butane from a cigarette lighter that was unlit > immediately responded with a display of .7v...... > Your O2 sensor is a HC Sensor... > Bruce and the staff at CSH, HQ Ahh... Now I see. Technically speaking, the O2 sensor should be called an O2 differential sensor. Or maybe a "lack of O2" sensor. ; ) No, the sensor doesn't make a voltage when there is oxygen on the sniffer side of the sensor. It makes a voltage when there is no oxygen on the sniffer side. Now the Argon thing, I'd like to know more about. IIRC, the ecm supplies a bias voltage to the sensor to prevent false readings like the ones you got in plain air. Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 18 04:04:18 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:04:18 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: G. Scott Ponton wrote: > > Exposing the sensor to butane cut off the oxygen to the element. This is > what caused the reading to go high. This is something I started to touch on > in yesterdays post. It has to do with the molecular weight of the gas being > used to flush the exhaust side of the sensor. If the gas used doesn't have > enough "weight" to "push" the oxygen out of the way the reading doesn't > change. > > Scott So you're saying that some oxygen sticks to the sensor? It takes a gas with some "oomph" to push it away? Shannen From cosmic.ray at juno.com Tue May 18 04:24:08 1999 From: cosmic.ray at juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:24:08 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor and water Message-ID: On Sun, 16 May 1999 23:56:56 +0200 "Nils Bj?rkman" writes: >Hello > >Im working on an EFI project. The purpose of this project is converting >and modifying an Volvo B230F engine to be used in a boat. > >Now the turn has come to attach the O2 sensor. The following problems >occure: > >1. If the O2-sensor gets in contact with water (in the exhaust >manifold), will it be destryoed, how does it work and so on. Car exhaust is mostly water vapor. I have never heard of that bothering an O2 sensor. Liquid water might be another story, however. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Tue May 18 04:49:06 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:49:06 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: Shannen, That's one way of putting it. To get any more detailed about it I would have to get into the chemistry of the situation. I haven't used high level chemistry for 20 years so I have gone as far as I can go with that part of it. Mark Wilcutts posted a couple of URL's which do a very good job of explaining everything but they are still a little shy on the chemical details. Listening to what everyone seems to want leads to a 4 gas analizer built into the ECM/PCM. Not impossible to impliment just bulky and pricy. Scott From FHPREMACH at aol.com Tue May 18 05:05:30 1999 From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:05:30 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: In a message dated 5/16/99 9:12:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nwester at eidnet.org writes: << I have no faith in some kind of coating--just like I have no faith in Teflon additives...instead of coating the undersides of pistons, or coating the interior of an engine--polishing the interiors smooth would have a greater effect of oil return, and less oil "dwell". As far as piston ring manufacturers go--gapless piston rings and improper end gaps will always yield differing results. You can make anything look good on a dyno--depending on operator. Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- >> Hi, I just wanted to add a bit to this idea. most research has noted that the "Leave it cast and paint it black" ideas of long ago still hold true. Oil is a strange beast at times. you want to cool it and drain it to the sump, but as it cools, it slows down the drainback. Rough surfaces increase the surface area and increase cooling. As for teflon, the jury is still out on the longterm results. Polishing the interior of motors has come in and out of use. and at one time, polishing the entire crankcase, crank, rod, and filling the balance holes in two strokes was supposed to lead to increased horsepower, but like stuffer plates, it seems to have lost favor. Coatings seem to come in and out of fashion. I do believe in coatings for certain areas, but am still looking into a couple of unorthodox ones. I will give results as they ocur. BTW, has anyone tried the carbide cylinder bore treatment that was in the threads a few months ago? I wondered about that with a Hard Anodized piston skirt might affect wear. Fred From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Tue May 18 05:18:31 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:18:31 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust - Meet Mr Helmholz Message-ID: The majordomo deleted portion proposed active acoustical tuning using a "microphone" or a sensitive pressure sensor well filtered and positioned near the valve to observe the exhaust acoustical pressure and in conjunction with a camshaft angle sensor, we would have the feedback mechanism to actively measure and time the arrival of the negative going pulse. While the Helmholz model may not be perfect, it gives us reasonable bounds to develope within without getting into magic. This model tells us that we can change the frequency of the resonance by changing the volume and the volume does not have to flow gas. Thus the slippy pipe. In reality, any reasonable way of varying the volume of a connected chamber will allow us to move the resonance to the current rpm. Multiple stubs connected by butterfly valves may work as well - depending on the broadness "Q" of the system. In the Helmholz model, the final tuning is done by the varying the length and area of the tuning pipe attached to the volume. This corresponds to the exhaust system past the collector "resonating" volume. Shortening the pipe by a "cutout" properly placed could shorten the effective length of the resonating pipe, raise the resonant frequency and thus extend the active bandwidth again. Again, with a Helmholz model, we can approximately predict the effect of changes either in the resonating volume or the tuning pipe. With the acoustical pressure vs camshaft angle measurement, we have a practical way of determining the effectiveness. For those that followed the link, you see how effective varying the temperature can be. Varying the temperature by water injection into the resonating volume works by varying the local speed of sound with the system. Since the sole purpose of the water is to vary the resonance by varying the temperature it becomes very interesting on how to administer the water. Probably the simplest is to vary the temperature of the gas in the collector. But would timed injection into the exhaust port just before the exhaust valve opens be more effective or just trailing the major pulse or perhaps even into the exhaust pulse itself. ???? Floors open. Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:00:40 -0500 From: Tom Sharpe Subject: Re: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust - Meet Mr Helmholz Deleted Stuff >Robert, I really like the slippy pipes... could you figure out the length from the >sound produced? Sort of a knock sensor approach... >or use lookup tables like fuel, spark, exhaust position?? Just trying to simplify >the process.. >Do we need a stepper motor headlight actuator.... Tom S ------------------------------ From jtracer at fea.net Tue May 18 05:29:07 1999 From: jtracer at fea.net (John T. Luyster) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:29:07 -0400 Subject: Mercedes CLK 430 ECU Mods Message-ID: I have been following the threads on DIY-EFI and I am superchargering a '99 Mercedes CLK 430. I'm looking to modify the ECU. Is there anyone in this forum who would point me in the right direction? John T. From FHPREMACH at aol.com Tue May 18 05:54:39 1999 From: FHPREMACH at aol.com (FHPREMACH at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:54:39 -0400 Subject: Mazda OBDII Message-ID: Hi, Has anyone developed anything for accessing the OBDII ports on the 96 Mazda Protoge. I have one, and would like to learn the diagnostics and tuning of it. I realize is it a bit of a strange car for perfomance work, but it works and the systme might be adaptable to other projects. so far, finding a diagnostic tool has been fruitles around here. Fred From Regnirps at aol.com Tue May 18 06:06:26 1999 From: Regnirps at aol.com (Regnirps at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:06:26 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: In a message dated 5/17/99 8:24:20 PM, markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu writes: >There are two papers up on my website: >http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/efi/SAE920289/ >http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/efi/SAE930352/ The server says they are not there. Charlie Springer From chris_beasley at mindspring.com Tue May 18 06:51:25 1999 From: chris_beasley at mindspring.com (Christopher J Beasley) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 02:51:25 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: CLsnyder wrote:snip > produced at this point is programmed into the ECU. If the voltage goes low, > the ECU richens the mixture. When the voltage goes high it leans the > mixture, and the ECU counts crossing points to determine if the system is > correcting properly. > > Exactly, except the other way 'round, right? b From kenkelly at lucent.com Tue May 18 11:36:28 1999 From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 07:36:28 -0400 Subject: LT1 Spark info wanted Message-ID: Shannen, I sent both last night, but sent them on gmecm by mistake. The original request is on the office PC, and I responded from home. Knew what you wanted, just not which list you requested it on! Ken Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Manual, 94-95 fine, much obliged. > Shannen > Ken Kelly wrote: > > > > Shannen, > > I can print out the tables for the stock 94-95 PCM for you. > > The advance curves look different for the AUtomatic and > > Manual, which do you want? Is 94 - 95 a good year? I have > > the 96 Auto Image too, but I'll have to confirm that I have > > that table loction for the 96. > > > > Ken > > > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > > > I'm looking for spark timing vs rpm, temp, map for an LT1 engine. > > > I've got the notion that this engine uses a large amount of advance at > > > cruise and would like to confirm it. Thanks. > > > Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 18 11:43:20 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 07:43:20 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: Christopher J Beasley wrote: > > CLsnyder wrote:snip > > > produced at this point is programmed into the ECU. If the voltage goes low, > > the ECU richens the mixture. When the voltage goes high it leans the > > mixture, and the ECU counts crossing points to determine if the system is > > correcting properly. > > > > > Exactly, except the other way 'round, right? > b No, more O2 in exhaust=lower voltage = need for more fuel. Hence the rich on ignition based misfire problem. Shannen From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Tue May 18 11:46:47 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 07:46:47 -0400 Subject: SAE articles 950003 & 950004 Message-ID: I can't find SAE articles 950003 & 950004 anywhere! I had a looked at all the Australian University OPAC library systems and I cannot find these two SAE articles (published in SP-1082 pages 9 to 19 and 21-28). If anyone has a copy of these articles (or SP-1082, with ISBN = 1056091632X) I'd like to know -- please. regards, -- Peter Gargano mailto:peter at mail.techedge.com.au From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 18 12:25:05 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:25:05 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust - Meet Mr Helmholz Message-ID: Two stroke pipes are tuned by injecting water. I think its common in personal water craft. They just use a constant stream. I think there may be a little to be gained by timing the water but that would be a small improvement, maybe using less water for the same effect, compared to using the water in the first place. This talk of fancy tuning is interesting and certainly improves the power per displacement but my question is does all this work actually make a better vehicle. Isn't it easier to just use a larger engine with appropriate gearing to achieve the same power and economy without all the extra parts? For sure there is some small fuel economy gain in city driving with a small displacement engine because it uses less fuel at idle. But in cruise mode or WOT, specific power is not really affected by fancy tuning. Gary Derian > The majordomo deleted portion proposed active acoustical tuning using a > "microphone" or a sensitive pressure sensor well filtered and positioned near > the valve to observe the exhaust acoustical pressure and in conjunction with a > camshaft angle sensor, we would have the feedback mechanism to actively > measure and time the arrival of the negative going pulse. > Since the sole purpose of the water is to vary the resonance by varying the > temperature it becomes very interesting on how to administer the water. > Probably the simplest is to vary the temperature of the gas in the collector. > But would timed injection into the exhaust port just before the exhaust valve > opens be more effective or just trailing the major pulse or perhaps even into > the exhaust pulse itself. ???? Floors open. > From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 18 12:35:49 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:35:49 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher J Beasley To: Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 2:52 AM Subject: Re: O2 Volts > > > CLsnyder wrote:snip > > > produced at this point is programmed into the ECU. If the voltage goes low, > > the ECU richens the mixture. When the voltage goes high it leans the > > mixture, and the ECU counts crossing points to determine if the system is > > correcting properly. > > > > > Exactly, except the other way 'round, right? > b > No, when the voltage goes high you have too little O2 in the exhaust, so it leans the mixture to compensate. When the voltage goes too high you have too much O2, so it richens the mixture. A missfire allows O2 to flow through unburned, and forces the engine rich. From my understanding and experience anyway. Been wrong before - but I think I got it right this time.> From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Tue May 18 12:58:46 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 08:58:46 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: > Ahh... Now I see. Technically speaking, the O2 sensor should be > called an O2 differential sensor. Or maybe a "lack of O2" sensor. ; > ) No, the sensor doesn't make a voltage when there is oxygen on the > sniffer side of the sensor. It makes a voltage when there is no > oxygen on the sniffer side. Now the Argon thing, I'd like to know > more about. IIRC, the ecm supplies a bias voltage to the sensor to > prevent false readings like the ones you got in plain air. Actually, It provides a bias voltage so it knows when the sensor either is shorted or open. If it see's 450mv for a preset time and the engine is running etc, it sets a defective O2 sensor code... if it see's 0v for a long enough time, it set's a defective O2 code and a lean exhaust code. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Tue May 18 13:10:18 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:10:18 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust - Meet Mr Helmholz Message-ID: > This talk of fancy tuning is interesting and certainly improves the power > per displacement but my question is does all this work actually make a > better vehicle. Isn't it easier to just use a larger engine with > appropriate gearing to achieve the same power and economy without all the > extra parts? > > For sure there is some small fuel economy gain in city driving with a small > displacement engine because it uses less fuel at idle. But in cruise mode > or WOT, specific power is not really affected by fancy tuning. There is a lot to be said for proper tuning at WOT *AND* cruise. I had a 1985 Buick GN, 3.8liter V6, turbocharged and NON-intercooled. It ran 15.92 at 88MPH stock in the 1/4 mile and got 20mpg on the highway. I manufactured a lot of mods myself and bought some others... I had it running mid 12's and highway cruise increased to 25-27MPG with the A/C on! A 455 buick big block, mildly warmed over would have gotten me the 12 second time slips, but MPG would have probably been close to half what the little V6 was getting... You have to keep in mind that more CI = more fuel at stoich. you have to feed what you have. From realsquash at yahoo.com Tue May 18 13:12:56 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:12:56 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor and water Message-ID: My O2 sensor has been completely under water and mud for long periods of time, while operating. It never seemed to fail for me... Andy --- Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > > On Sun, 16 May 1999 23:56:56 +0200 "Nils Bj?rkman" > writes: > >Hello > > > >Im working on an EFI project. The purpose of this > project is converting > >and modifying an Volvo B230F engine to be used in a > boat. > > > >Now the turn has come to attach the O2 sensor. The > following problems > >occure: > > > >1. If the O2-sensor gets in contact with water (in > the exhaust > >manifold), will it be destryoed, how does it work > and so on. > > Car exhaust is mostly water vapor. I have never > heard of that bothering > an O2 sensor. Liquid water might be another story, > however. > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free > Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at > http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Tue May 18 13:18:12 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:18:12 -0400 Subject: VE tables Message-ID: I have a question... My 95 buick LeSabre basically uses the same code, but with different option bits set and different table values, as the Supercharged 3800V6. The engine is using MAF and no MAP for air flow. It has tons of MAF tables, but also has VE tables. (Engine efficiency VS RPM). What effect do the values in the VE tables have if you change say 80% at some RPM to 95%? increase fuel delivered at that point or decrease it? Thanks, Dave From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Tue May 18 13:19:24 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:19:24 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor and water Message-ID: > My O2 sensor has been completely under water and mud > for long periods of time, while operating. It never > seemed to fail for me... > Yes, but that's the outside... It's designed to get wet and survive. If you get water on the active element inside the exhaust stream, it's toast. From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 18 14:05:21 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:05:21 -0400 Subject: LT1 Spark info wanted Message-ID: 'Sokay, they arrived at my mailbox all the same. Thanks. Shannen Ken Kelly wrote: > > Shannen, > I sent both last night, but sent them on gmecm by mistake. The original request > is on the office PC, and I responded from home. Knew what you wanted, just not > which list you requested it on! > Ken > From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com Tue May 18 14:59:03 1999 From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:59:03 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: The Helmholz resonating system was originally developed for wind acoustical instruments as a model. We now routinely use it to create and size resonant intake systems. But some may still have trouble visioning it. The pure model is a ball "resonating volume" with a pipe "tuning pipe" attached. Changing the temperature changes the local speed of sound within the resonator - and thus the frequency of resonance changes. Changing the volume within the resonating volume changes the frequency - larger lower. Changing the area/length of the tuning pipe changes the frequency. So everyone should see a ball with a pipe. We now add some pipes - sort of like porcupine spikes sticking out of the resonating volume - but part of the resonating volume. N -1 spikes are of the length and volume of the header pipes running to the collector. The Nth is the length and volume including the volume of the cylinder with the exhaust open during overlap N is the number of cylinders firing into the common volume. The headers/runners can be individually ram tuned to a frequency somewhat higher than the highest helmholz frequency and thus extent the top end as this resonance swamps the helmholz effect. When a pulse of sound ( exhaust gas acoustic pressure front ) hits an open volume it generates a negative pressure wave that travels back up the header to the exhaust valve. We want the negative peak of this wave to arrive at the time both valves are open "overlap" to gain maximum effect. That is the theory behind ram tuning exhaust. With the ability to swamp that effect with the Helmholz resonance, think ringing a bell - with a variable sized bell - we can retune the resonance downward as much as practical. Since the only thing that matters ( assuming a reasonably well designed otherwise exhaust system ) is the arrival of this negative pulse, we need only measure the instantaneous port pressure in this crankshaft angle region and then tune the system to a maximum negative pressure. Adding blind volume to the resonating volume simply lowers the resonant frequency - a good thing since the additional volume does not have to flow gas. Adding area/shortening the length of the tuned pipe raises the resonant frequency. Perhaps multiple switched exhaust pipes? From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 18 15:11:37 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:11:37 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: Hi Fred!, This is good to know about alum tubing!! What diameter and wall thickness was the tubin ya used? Aren't they usually billet rails? or are the billet rails just show stuff... Keep the tidbits coming mang.... I'm learnin, I'm sure others are as well! LATER! Todd....!! ------------- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Greetings, > > After spending most of the morning wandering around two local junkyards, > I lucked out and found two of the elusive 7749 ECMs, one passed my > "power up" test, the second one didn't, and the yard I got them from > said they'd exchange the bad one when they get a wrecked turbo sunbird > in later today (which means middle of next week to everyone else). Also > picked up a 2-bar MAP sensor using GM part numbers as a reference, for > $15. It was sitting on a shelf believe it or not, so that piece is > done. Coincidentally, the body harness I snagged to give my old beater > truck power everything (windows, locks, cruise, digital dash) plugs > right into two of the three underhood ECM harnesses with ease, and I > have to verify the wiring to ensure I don't have any ground and batt > leads interconnecting. At least the connectors fit... moving wires > around has become quite easy after all the practice I'm getting! > > Sorry for the cross post... so many people have given me help and advice > I wanted to make sure you all know I appreciate it !!!! > > Oh, and I pressure tested my homemade fuel rails this morning and they > leak right through the aluminum tubing. I found that odd. I know > aluminum is somewhat porous compared to other metals, but 100psi of air > pressure on the end of the fuel rail, submerging it into a litter box > full of water resulted in small bubbles forming on the surface of the > aluminum. When the pressure is released, the bubbles appear to receed > back into the aluminum. Very odd. Just thought you'd all get a kick > out of it. > > --- > > Frederic Breitwieser > > Xephic Technology > "Leadership in IT" > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com > Voice: (203) 372-2707 > Fax: (603) 372-1147 From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 18 15:11:41 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:11:41 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: Sounds like Fred got one of his from a TURBO SUNBIRD... Good luck.... I haven't seen many of them runnin around much.... LATER! Todd....!! ---------- Thomas Martin wrote: > > I have a decent contact at a local boneyard (he owns it!), what vehicles should I be > on the lookout for to find a 1227749 ECM? > > He has a large stack of ECM's, and many 80's cars. > > Thomas Martin From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 18 15:11:45 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:11:45 -0400 Subject: radiators? Message-ID: Hello Mike, If ya go to your local auto parts store, they should have a HUGE book full of pictures of radiators, with the dimensions under each pic! Just choose the one you want and maybe put up a bit a cash and it's yours!! LATER! Todd....!! P.S. - COOL project, that car must not weigh more than 1,500 lbs. if THAT! Buddy bought one a while back, was gonna put a s.b. chev or ford in it, but he didn't have the drive or the desire to even start the project! He got the idea to do the mini-vette opel GT after I did my 81 Pontiac T1000 (Che-Vette) with a 400 s.b.c. and TH375 all outof a big ol impala wagon... That thing booked and it weighed in at 2,345 after the install... Used the STOCK rear-end, luckily it wasn't a posi ot I would SURELY snapped it, it ran fine with the stock rear end, I think it was like an 8 bolt or so(LOL) it was geared up for the lil 4 banger that it came with so the 400 was pretty much wrappin out for any period of distance at about 40 mph! I used an ol chev nova style radiator... Didn't run a hood at first, but then the base security said somethin about the hood being safety equipment????? can you BELIEVE it! That's SO BOGUS!! So I cut the hood where the radiator and stock fan was stickin up and hittin the hood and pinned it in the front with hood pins, whalaa, prob solved, except at higher speeds the back of the hood would tend to rise and flap a bit due to the engine air and fan wind blowin some SERIOUS cfm underhood! LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm ---------- Mike Pilkenton wrote: > > I know this is a little off topic for the efi list but I'm finishing up my > 3.1L V6 engine transplant project into my Opel GT and it's time to think > about cooling. Can anyone suggest a decent OEM radiator that would be > sufficient for the GM 60 degree V6 and fit in a tight area say about 13 in > tall by 16 in wide? > > Mike From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 18 15:11:50 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:11:50 -0400 Subject: thank you Message-ID: If you're stil there, hope not, WHERE may I ask are ya goin for your trip? LATER! Todd....!! Marc Piccioni wrote: > > Just a short note to say that I am dropping off the list for a while, due > to an extended trip. I wish to thank all the members who have answered my > newbie EFI questions. > > Regards > > /Marc From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 18 15:11:52 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:11:52 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: I hear ya, My Dana should be able to hold up to WHATEVER I can dish out to it... We'll see how she holds up with the twin wutrbo FI'd 440 and/or 451 stroker 400... I'm sure the Dana will hold up to 900+ hp... Have ya'll ever seen the axles in one of these things? They're HUGE! especially in comparison to the 8 3/4, will have to look at a 9 inch and see what the diff is as well... And yes, it SURE would be nice to swap out the ol 4.10's for say some 2.73's for a long cruise across the country or even across TEXAS which is about half the trip from Houston to Canada! Later! Thanks for the input all... Todd....!! Tom Sharpe wrote: > > Just wanted to say that 9" Fords are easier to work on than Dana 60's.. Mopar 8 > 3/4 are fine unless you need a new Posi. Tom S From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 18 15:11:58 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:11:58 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: All you mentioned is foreign to me... I am not of that era and have no friends with any of the good ol flat heads... Do have a friend with a couple a Hemi's buit they're all 426's and souped in the ol Cuda's... 28 mpg seems UNREAL to me right now.... What's the trick? throw a one barrel on it and highway gears and a LOT of air in some REALLY skinny tires and MAYBE I'll be in the teen's but I don't see 20 ANYTHING for gas mileage coming outa my pig! As for gear ratio, the goal is to hit red line in top gear when ya cross the finish line, that's the all around goal of gearing for best e.t... As for the AAR 340 in another car, in my mind the AAR Cuda deserves to have it's engine back! It deserves it and it DEFINITELY looks TOTALLY AWESOME! I passed up snaggin an AAR Cuda for $1,000 back in about 1988, STILL kickin myself! I had JUSt bought the BEE so I didn't think I needed another Mopar pig in the shed! The thing sold right before I found out what it was worth! It had a blown engine(Thrown rod) and the heads and 6 pac intake and carbs were stolen off of it, the body was in SUPER shape, it was orange with the black AAR strip kit! still had the turnouts in front of the rear tires as well as the cool 'glas? single scoop hood! As for the 440 turnin the rpm's... FYI, if'n ya don't already know... A small block chev 302 engine's bore is 4 inches, stroke is 3.00 inches A small block chev 327 engine's bore is 4 inches, stroke is 3.25 inches A small block chev 350 engine's bore is 4 inches, stroke is 3.50 inches A small block chev 400 engine's bore is 4.125 inches, stroke is 3.75 inches A BIG block chev 427 engine's bore is 4.25 inches, stroke is 3.75 inches A BIG block chev 454 engine's bore is 4.25 inches, stroke is 4.00 inches If we took, for example, a Big Block chev engine with a 4.25 inch bore, like say a 454 block and DE-STROKED the crank to in between a 327 and 350 at say about a 3.37 stroke, this would give you the dimensions of a 383 Mopar engine! Can you imagine what a cehv 454 destroked to a shorter stroke than a 350 chev would rev like? Well, you know what it could sound like whenever ya here a 383 Mopar engine rev! Super quick! Then ya have the 440 Mopar which comes from the factory with a 4.32 inch bore and a 3.75 inch stroke (Same as the 427 Chev b.b.) A 400 Mopar engine has even a BIGGER bore than the 440 at 4.34! AND the stroke is the same as the 383!!! which again is abotu 3.38 inches! a 400 Mopar engine is like taking a 454 engine with a 4.25 inch bore, boring it out .090, which is hardly ever done on the B.B. Chev due to cyl wall thickness and safety THEN DE_STROKIN the sucker to a shorter stroke than a 350 chev!! The 400 Mopar is where it's at if ya want a high revvin engine! What some people do to the 400 Mopar is throw the 3.75 inch 440 crank into the 400 block and create a REALLY lightweight internal 451 stroker motor! http://www.musclemotors.com sells the kit for this build in various forms and completedness... One of the GREAT things about these Mopar engine's is that they cost less at the bone yards than even the s.b. chevs or Ford's, I assume due to the law of supply and demand, more people but chev's and Fordsouta the yards than Mopars... I picked my 440 up for $135 at the local Pic-Ur-Part self-help junk yard... Rebuilt it and had it in the car for about $1,300 TOTAL including the price of the junkyard engine! Sure I'm only runnin low 13's so far, but I have my probs and it's not the engine itself, it's the ignition system, i.e. cheap plugs and wires, as well as carburetor 'issues'... Tippin the scales at 3,710 lbs. without driver doesn't help things much! Will be in the 12's soon, after installin new Accel 8 mm wires and accel non resistor plugs and buddies race 750 and losin the rest of the junk in the car after a good cleanout.... Hopefully she'll hook up this time, maybe use some VHT this time as well!! And some octane booster or race fuel! LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm CLsnyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd....!! > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 1:54 PM > Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED > > > CL, > > > > It takes a LOT of gear to get a behemoth like our b-body Mopars outa the > > hole, 2.xx gears just doesn't cut it, as compared to 4.xx gears, no > > comparison... > What is your low gear ratio? With a close ratio box you need 4+ gearing - > with the wide ratio box and the long gears you get the same overall ratio > (within a few points) - you just need a bit wider power band because you > have to wind it a bit tighter before shifting or you can bog it out. > > > > The torque of the Big Blocks still may feel strong even with the highway > > gears but it's not as effective as when ya use quicker gears such as the > > 4.10's.... > > Again, it is overall ratio that counts - don't matter a hill of beans where > the gearing is done, and a big block has a nice fat power curve so it pulls > strong in second without floating the valves in low. > > > > I drove my 70 Bee with the ol 383 and 4.10's with an automatic 727 from > > Cheyenne, Wy to Houston, Texas back in June of 1989, got 15 mpg goin 50 > > mph most of the way... with 100+ mph jaunts about every 10 to 30 minutes > > to clean er out... Windows were down the whole way, except for when it > > rained in the hill country of Texas... That trip was with an 800 spread > > bore single feed dbl pmpr jetted pretty rich for Cheyenne's > > altitude(Over 5,200 ft).... > > > > And NO I didn't use ear plugs as I should've.... I was runnin dual > > cherry bombs only, straight off the headers, and couldn't go to sleep > > the night I arrived in Houston due to my ears ringing.... > > > > Have since acquired a LOt of single packs of those sponge roll up ear > > plugs for passengers and myself on those long trip days... > > > > Am about to install a set of 3 inch pipes with 3 inch 2 chambered flows, > > they're in the trunk, I need to have the muffs welded back onto the > > pipes, wonder how it'll sound, as compared to the current 2.5 inch pipes > > with el cheapo turbo's... > > > > Thanks fo rthe stories mang... > > > > LATER! > > > > Todd....!! > > > If you want sweet ya gotta drive a 264 flatty with a short Thrush from > Waterloo Ontario to Tulsa Oklahoma in August. The big six barks real nice - > about 28MPG in an air conditioned '57 half ton. Pulling away from a stop in > second was no problem either. > > The trip from Waterloo to Murray Harbour PEI in the 53 Hemi Coronet Sierra > (373 gears and overdrive) made 18 hours of fantastic music as well at about > the same mileage. Both were quiet enough to get by the coppers without any > trouble, yet healthy sounding enough to be "cool". The 264 P'up was a bear > in the rain or hot weather, pulling away without squeaking the tires took > some practice, or second gear. The guy who has it now has a 340 AAR in it > and about 48" of rubber under the bed. > > > > > > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Todd....!! > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 3:17 PM > > > Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED > > > > > > > I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > > > > > > However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > > > > swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > > > > tthe entire rearend!? > > > > > > > > Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a > Dana > > > > swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > > > > highway! > > > > > > A friend has a '69 'Runner with the 383 Magnum, 2.7? gears and wide > ratio > > > box. Good out of the hole with the steep low gears, and excellent > mileage > > > driving half sensibly in 4th. Pretty well bury the needle in third at > > > redline. > > > > > > > > > > From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 18 15:12:01 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:12:01 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: The 56 should be in at cruisin speeds on the highway, right? I tested the mechanical and vacuum advance settings with a timing light and all ligned up correectly when doin the timing tests, i.e. removing the vac line and holdin the r's above 2,600 rpm adjusted for 38 degrees BTDC, then applied vac to vac advance and got 56 degrees....just like the mopar book says... Current 750 dbl pmpr has no vac tubes to hook to so I'll wait till I get another carb on it to see how she runs with vac adv hooked up, hopefully better MPG, well see! Thanks for the input! LATER! Todd....!! Gary Derian wrote: > > You won't see all 56 deg. while driving. It is a lot but will only occur at > max vacuum and rpm above the full advance rpm. > > Gary Derian > > > > The Manual calls for 38 degrees total mechanical advance and lik 56 > > degrees advance with the vacuum hooked up... > > > > Does this sound right to ya'll? > > > > Seems a tad bit much to me! > > > > Thanks again! > > > > Really appreciate the help! > > > > LATER! > > > > Todd....!! From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 18 15:12:06 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:12:06 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: So Shannen, do ya think I could get away with the 2 sizes bigger since I'm at or below sea level? What size exactly IS two sizes bigger than what ya had(What are your current jets in the carb right now?) Thanks! Todd....!! Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Todd....!! wrote: > > > > I have a 72 Buick 455 in my 72 Jaguar, but the carb that was on it was > > jetted for Cheyenne, Wyoming, I already messed up my first 455 that I > > put in the Jag due to this carbs' pretetonation causing lean > > condition... broke a couple of peices of ring crowns off the top of a > > couple a the pistons.... Damage was already done long before I swapped > > out the carb for a sea level configured rochester... > > Well, I don't believe Cheyenne is too much higher than Hardin, MT. > Before I left Hardin, I swapped the primary jets for jets that were 2 > sizes larger. Once I arrived here (900 ft above sea level) I had to > retard the timing slightly. The car is slightly rich now, but I don't > use it much so I haven't finished the tuning. This is a 455 buick, > 3.08 rear gear, 18mpg on the highway. > Shannen From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 18 15:13:34 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:13:34 -0400 Subject: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool./ Part2 Message-ID: Get/find a bigger oven mang! Thanks for the ideas too! Todd....!! Bruce Plecan wrote: > > OK, now, what really needs/can be done right. > Since mileage is an issue, it's batch fire, vaporization ain't a bad thing > for that, > I'd be willing to leave the intake runner, and back side of the valve undone > Do the combustion chamber (cylinder head, and piston top). > Exhaust valve, face, and backside. > Then the exhaust runner > Then the exhaust manifold inside and out. > Barrier coat the bottom of the intake manifold to keep the oil heat off of > it. > What's wrong/right with this picture > Block too large for oven so is a no doer > Bruce From realsquash at yahoo.com Tue May 18 15:51:01 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:51:01 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor and water Message-ID: --- "David A. Cooley" wrote: > Yes, but that's the outside... It's designed to get > wet and survive. If you > get water on the active element inside the exhaust > stream, it's toast. Yes, this is the outside. I would have big problems if I had enough water inside to do in the sensor. Would an inactive (cold) sensor get ruined by submersion in water? If the any engine is running, I don't think that you would have much of a chance of water coming up the exhaust. Andy _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Tue May 18 15:54:44 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:54:44 -0400 Subject: VE tables Message-ID: Ah.. So Peter Wales bud's (Superchips) increased VE to richen the mixture... They richened the mixture from 3800RPM and up and it is at 100-105% across the board... stock was 85-90% I may set that back and just play with the PE and timing. > > An increase in VE requires an increase in fuel as a higher VE > > indicates more air flow (or a better ability to flow air). > > > > A 100% VE means you are pumping 3800cc's of air every 720 degrees. > > > > -Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-gmecm at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu > > [mailto:owner-gmecm at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of David A. Cooley > > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 9:16 AM > > To: DIY_EFI > > Cc: gmecm at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: VE tables > > > > > > I have a question... > > My 95 buick LeSabre basically uses the same code, but with different > option > > bits set and different table values, as the Supercharged 3800V6. The > engine > > is using MAF and no MAP for air flow. It has tons of MAF tables, but also > > has VE tables. (Engine efficiency VS RPM). What effect do the values in > the > > VE tables have if you change say 80% at some RPM to 95%? > > increase fuel delivered at that point or decrease it? > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > > > From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Tue May 18 16:01:39 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:01:39 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor and water Message-ID: > Yes, this is the outside. I would have big problems > if I had enough water inside to do in the sensor. > Would an inactive (cold) sensor get ruined by > submersion in water? If the any engine is running, I > don't think that you would have much of a chance of > water coming up the exhaust. I think the only way you'd see it on the inside was in a marine app where water is pumped into the manifolds/headers to cool them... maybe some reversion could suck enough water up to kill the sensor. From spectro at ma.ultranet.com Tue May 18 16:33:14 1999 From: spectro at ma.ultranet.com (SPECTRO COATING CORP.) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:33:14 -0400 Subject: New Person Message-ID: Hi - My name is Jason & I recently started subscibing to this list. I'm sure I will learn something here as my efi knowledge drops off a cliff at the ECU connector.(going in - not out ;) My current projects are a V8 AWD S10 Blazer & an 8V-71 supercharged & injected 440 Chrysler (on the engine stand). I'll hang out & watch for awhile. Thanks - J From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 18 16:49:39 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:49:39 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: If this opens a whole new box of problems, just ignore. But, I've noticed what a huge change expansion chambers have had of VE in 2 strokes, and after seeing the Mercedes Benz GT (Sedan, whatever they call em) with the v-6, and 3 into 1 exhausts, and running 2 expansion chambers (one per side), I just wonder, how they came up with that... Is it the shape of the cones or volume that makes a "E.C." work, or both?. Grumpy > The Helmholz resonating system was originally developed for wind acoustical > instruments as a model. We now routinely use it to create and size resonant > intake systems. But some may still have trouble visioning it. > > The pure model is a ball "resonating volume" with a pipe "tuning pipe" > attached. Changing the temperature changes the local speed of sound within > the resonator - and thus the frequency of resonance changes. Changing the > volume within the resonating volume changes the frequency - larger lower. > Changing the area/length of the tuning pipe changes the frequency. > > So everyone should see a ball with a pipe. We now add some pipes - sort of > like porcupine spikes sticking out of the resonating volume - but part of the > resonating volume. N -1 spikes are of the length and volume of the header > pipes running to the collector. The Nth is the length and volume including > the volume of the cylinder with the exhaust open during overlap N is the > number of cylinders firing into the common volume. > > The headers/runners can be individually ram tuned to a frequency somewhat > higher than the highest helmholz frequency and thus extent the top end as this > resonance swamps the helmholz effect. > > When a pulse of sound ( exhaust gas acoustic pressure front ) hits an open > volume it generates a negative pressure wave that travels back up the header > to the exhaust valve. We want the negative peak of this wave to arrive at the > time both valves are open "overlap" to gain maximum effect. That is the > theory behind ram tuning exhaust. With the ability to swamp that effect with > the Helmholz resonance, think ringing a bell - with a variable sized bell - we > can retune the resonance downward as much as practical. > > Since the only thing that matters ( assuming a reasonably well designed > otherwise exhaust system ) is the arrival of this negative pulse, we need only > measure the instantaneous port pressure in this crankshaft angle region and > then tune the system to a maximum negative pressure. > > Adding blind volume to the resonating volume simply lowers the resonant > frequency - a good thing since the additional volume does not have to flow > gas. Adding area/shortening the length of the tuned pipe raises the resonant > frequency. Perhaps multiple switched exhaust pipes? > From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 18 16:53:17 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:53:17 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Just use manifold vacuum. Carb vacuum is ported so there is no vacuum at idle. This can help or hurt the idle quality. Try it and see. Gary Derian > The 56 should be in at cruisin speeds on the highway, right? > > I tested the mechanical and vacuum advance settings with a timing light > and all ligned up correectly when doin the timing tests, i.e. removing > the vac line and holdin the r's above 2,600 rpm adjusted for 38 degrees > BTDC, then applied vac to vac advance and got 56 degrees....just like > the mopar book says... > > Current 750 dbl pmpr has no vac tubes to hook to so I'll wait till I get > another carb on it to see how she runs with vac adv hooked up, hopefully > better MPG, well see! > > Thanks for the input! > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > From pford at qnx.com Tue May 18 17:48:46 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:48:46 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor and water Message-ID: Previously, you (Squash) wrote: > --- "David A. Cooley" wrote: > > Yes, but that's the outside... It's designed to get > > wet and survive. If you > > get water on the active element inside the exhaust > > stream, it's toast. > > Yes, this is the outside. I would have big problems > if I had enough water inside to do in the sensor. > Would an inactive (cold) sensor get ruined by > submersion in water? If the any engine is running, I > don't think that you would have much of a chance of > water coming up the exhaust. no but the sensor is exposed to outside air, and I've cracked then on my landie and subarus ( the subies are right at the bottom of the y pipe anything more then 8" would flood the outside of the sensor and the thermal gradient popped them (they would leak exhaust). the landrover had its sensor about 3' off the ground, go into water that deep and pop ( I ended up removing the sensor for that reason) they also don't like mud 8-( > > Andy > > _____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From realsquash at yahoo.com Tue May 18 18:14:13 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:14:13 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor and water Message-ID: --- Pat Ford wrote: > I've > cracked then on my landie and subarus ( the subies > are > right at the bottom of the y pipe anything more then > 8" > would flood the outside of the sensor and the > thermal > gradient popped them (they would leak exhaust). the What type of sensor was this? Was it a porcelain or a steel cased one? Andy _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu Tue May 18 18:26:31 1999 From: markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu (Mark Wilcutts) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:26:31 -0400 Subject: O2 voltz Message-ID: Sorry that should be http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/~markw/efi/SAE920289/ http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/~markw/efi/SAE930352/ On Tue, 18 May 1999 Regnirps at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/17/99 8:24:20 PM, markw at vehicle.me.berkeley.edu writes: > > >There are two papers up on my website: > >http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/efi/SAE920289/ > >http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/efi/SAE930352/ > > > The server says they are not there. > > Charlie Springer From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Tue May 18 18:54:56 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:54:56 -0400 Subject: New Person Message-ID: "SPECTRO COATING CORP." wrote: > > Hi - My name is Jason & I recently started subscibing to this list. > > I'm sure I will learn something here as my efi knowledge drops off a cliff > at the ECU connector.(going in - not out ;) > > My current projects are a V8 AWD S10 Blazer & an 8V-71 supercharged & > injected 440 Chrysler (on the engine stand). Ah, the V8 Blazer. One of my favorites. Are you using a full time case or the part time one? Race truck or trail? --steve > > I'll hang out & watch for awhile. > > Thanks - J -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From spectro at ma.ultranet.com Tue May 18 19:28:29 1999 From: spectro at ma.ultranet.com (SPECTRO COATING CORP.) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:28:29 -0400 Subject: Hi Steve Message-ID: Hi Steve - how you doin? >Ah, the V8 Blazer. One of my favorites. Are you using a full time case >or the part time one? Race truck or trail? Actually (i'm still building it) its a street truck in much the same manner as a typhoon. I'm almost done collecting parts for it, & the last major piece I need is the AWD transfer case If I can fit it in I'd like to turbocharge it & use the 7749 ECU - Mike V. says he can cut the chip for it. Thanks for listening - Jason From bearbvd at sni.net Tue May 18 20:23:38 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:23:38 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: >If this opens a whole new box of problems, just ignore. But, I've noticed >what a huge change expansion chambers have had of VE in 2 strokes, and after >seeing the Mercedes Benz GT (Sedan, whatever they call em) with the v-6, and >3 into 1 exhausts, and running 2 expansion chambers (one per side), I just >wonder, how they came up with that... > Is it the shape of the cones or volume that makes a "E.C." work, or >both?. >Grumpy > Both. Megaphones convert velocity to static pressure pretty efficiently. Greg From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 18 21:25:28 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:25:28 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: We're talking about EGT at this stage?, right?. How much change in temp is signifigant?. Bruce > The pure model is a ball "resonating volume" with a pipe "tuning pipe" > attached. Changing the temperature changes the local speed of sound within > the resonator - and thus the frequency of resonance changes. Changing the > volume within the resonating volume changes the frequency - larger lower. > Changing the area/length of the tuning pipe changes the frequency. From James.Simpson at Unisys.Com Tue May 18 21:30:30 1999 From: James.Simpson at Unisys.Com (Simpson, James H) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:30:30 -0400 Subject: Engine code Reading Software?? Message-ID: Does anyone have PC based software (windows or dos) for reading engine codes. I'm looking for Turbo Pascal, Visual Basic or even Assembler Source code. Doesn't have to be fancy. I just need to read the data stream from the TX pin on the diag. connector. My application is early Jeep 4.0 Liter (Renix system). I'm grabbing at straws here. Thanks in advance if you can help. Jim From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 18 21:58:39 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:58:39 -0400 Subject: VE tables Message-ID: Hello David, Is your goal in reducing teh amount of fuel to find that fine line between extra fuel cooling teh conbustion vs. loadin up the cylinder with extra fuel? or what? Just wonderinnnnnnnn........ Thanks! Todd....!! David A. Cooley wrote: > > Ah.. So Peter Wales bud's (Superchips) increased VE to richen the > mixture... > They richened the mixture from 3800RPM and up and it is at 100-105% across > the board... stock was 85-90% > I may set that back and just play with the PE and timing. > > > > An increase in VE requires an increase in fuel as a higher VE > > > indicates more air flow (or a better ability to flow air). > > > > > > A 100% VE means you are pumping 3800cc's of air every 720 degrees. > > > > > > -Mike > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-gmecm at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > [mailto:owner-gmecm at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of David A. Cooley > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 9:16 AM > > > To: DIY_EFI > > > Cc: gmecm at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > Subject: VE tables > > > > > > > > > I have a question... > > > My 95 buick LeSabre basically uses the same code, but with different > > option > > > bits set and different table values, as the Supercharged 3800V6. The > > engine > > > is using MAF and no MAP for air flow. It has tons of MAF tables, but > also > > > has VE tables. (Engine efficiency VS RPM). What effect do the values in > > the > > > VE tables have if you change say 80% at some RPM to 95%? > > > increase fuel delivered at that point or decrease it? > > > Thanks, > > > Dave > > > > > > > > From wsherwin at idirect.com Tue May 18 21:58:51 1999 From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:58:51 -0400 Subject: New Person Message-ID: >Hi - My name is Jason & I recently started subscibing to this list. > >I'm sure I will learn something here as my efi knowledge drops off a cliff >at the ECU connector.(going in - not out ;) > >My current projects are a V8 AWD S10 Blazer & an 8V-71 supercharged & >injected 440 Chrysler (on the engine stand). > >I'll hang out & watch for awhile. > >Thanks - J Jason, what kind of injection are you running on the 440? Above or below the blower? Does it have a home yet? Walt. From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Tue May 18 22:13:05 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:13:05 -0400 Subject: Current/New ION information Message-ID: I just found this article by Ph.D. student Lars Eriksson from Link=F6pin= g University, Sweden. The work was done in collaboration with Mecel AB and=20 SAAB Automobile AB. It's dated 25 November 1998. Here is the summary: http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/ionint.html And here is the actual article: http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/main.html Put simply, this article cites research that says maintaining the peak=20 cylinder pressure at a particular number of degrees (after TDC) will maximise engine efficiency and smoothness. This point is called the peak pressure position (or PPP). The PPP varies with many environmental condit= ions such as inlet air temperature, humidity, etc. PPP can be estimated by mea= suring the ION current, and in particular the "shape" of the ION current. Knowin= g=20 the current PPP value, the ignition timing can be varied to position the = peak=20 pressure at the optimal point.=20 Perhaps a paragraph from the summary better describes the article... > We are studying a method for controlling the spark advance that is bas= ed > on pattern recognition on the ionization current, in a fast inner loop= .=20 > An idealized model of the ionization current, with six parameters, is = fitted > to the measured ionization current. Information extracted from the fit= ted > model is then used to control the spark advance.=20 I'd recommend all interested ION project people look at this article as i= t also summarises much of the research that has been carried out to date. I= t also provides a common information database from which we can all work fr= om. So, we're talking about engine optimisation, not just knock/pre-ignition detection! regards, --=20 Peter Gargano mailto:peter at mail.techedge.com.au Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 From CEIJR at aol.com Tue May 18 22:46:13 1999 From: CEIJR at aol.com (CEIJR at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:46:13 -0400 Subject: Proformance Software Query Message-ID: Gar: I have dynomation, but not Engine expert. Be happy to do some runs if I can help. Charlie Iliff From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Wed May 19 00:22:54 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:22:54 -0400 Subject: Current/New ION information Message-ID: That's an interesting article. They show the best PPP to be around 15 degrees ATDC, over a range of RPM and load, to maximize torque. Total torque is the pressure integrated over the horizontal component of the crank position, so if the burn rate of the engine varies the PPP could also vary? I wonder if Robert or someone else with a combustion/Heywood book can comment on determining the best PPP (peak pressure position, the crank angle when max cylinder pressure is reached). --steve Peter Gargano wrote: > > I just found this article by Ph.D. student Lars Eriksson from Link=F6pin= > g > University, Sweden. The work was done in collaboration with Mecel AB and=20 > SAAB Automobile AB. It's dated 25 November 1998. > > Here is the summary: > > http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/ionint.html > > And here is the actual article: > > http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/main.html > > Put simply, this article cites research that says maintaining the peak=20 > cylinder pressure at a particular number of degrees (after TDC) will > maximise engine efficiency and smoothness. This point is called the peak > pressure position (or PPP). The PPP varies with many environmental condit= > ions > such as inlet air temperature, humidity, etc. PPP can be estimated by mea= > suring > the ION current, and in particular the "shape" of the ION current. Knowin= > g=20 > the current PPP value, the ignition timing can be varied to position the = > peak=20 > pressure at the optimal point.=20 > > Perhaps a paragraph from the summary better describes the article... > > > We are studying a method for controlling the spark advance that is bas= > ed > > on pattern recognition on the ionization current, in a fast inner loop= > .=20 > > An idealized model of the ionization current, with six parameters, is = > fitted > > to the measured ionization current. Information extracted from the fit= > ted > > model is then used to control the spark advance.=20 > > I'd recommend all interested ION project people look at this article as i= > t > also summarises much of the research that has been carried out to date. I= > t > also provides a common information database from which we can all work fr= > om. > > So, we're talking about engine optimisation, not just knock/pre-ignition > detection! > > regards, > --=20 > Peter Gargano mailto:peter at mail.techedge.com.au > Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Wed May 19 00:54:37 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:54:37 -0400 Subject: Current/New ION information - (resent) Message-ID: || Sorry about the mangled text (I cut and pasted an 8 bit character || and it stuffed up the rest of the text...). Here it is again... I just found this article by Ph.D. student Lars Eriksson from Linkoping University, Sweden. The work was done in collaboration with Mecel AB and SAAB Automobile AB. It's dated 25 November 1998. Here is the summary: http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/ionint.html And here is the actual article: http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/main.html Put simply, this article cites research that says maintaining the peak cylinder pressure at a particular number of degrees (after TDC) will maximise engine efficiency and smoothness. This point is called the peak pressure position (or PPP). The PPP varies with many environmental conditions such as inlet air temperature, humidity, etc. PPP can be estimated by measuring the ION current, and in particular the "shape" of the ION current. Knowing the current PPP value, the ignition timing can be varied to position the peak pressure at the optimal point. Perhaps a paragraph from the summary better describes the article... > We are studying a method for controlling the spark advance that is > based on pattern recognition on the ionization current, in a fast > inner loop. An idealized model of the ionization current, with six > parameters, is fitted to the measured ionization current. > Information extracted from the fitted model is then used to > control the spark advance. I'd recommend all interested ION project people look at this article as it also summarises much of the research that has been carried out to date. It also provides a common information database from which we can all work from. So, we're talking about engine optimisation, not just knock/pre-ignition detection! regards, --- Peter Gargano mailto:peter at mail.techedge.com.au Ph: +61 2 6251 5519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 From joe-amy-dzura at worldnet.att.net Wed May 19 00:59:24 1999 From: joe-amy-dzura at worldnet.att.net (Joe Dzura) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:59:24 -0400 Subject: SAAB DI coils - was Re: "ION" information ... Message-ID: Gar, First, welcome back. I was hoping to hear from you some day! When the O2 meters / kits are ready, put me on the list for 2 sensors with analog modules. I have been hacking my ford EEC V, and when I tear into the exhaust system, I plan on putting 2 extra O2 bungs in. I don't know if I will ever be able to incorporate ION, but I know I will need the wideband sensors to tune the car. Good to hear from you Joe D From mpilkent at ptw.com Wed May 19 01:03:57 1999 From: mpilkent at ptw.com (Mike Pilkenton) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:03:57 -0400 Subject: radiators? Message-ID: Thanks for the tip Todd. The stock Opel GT weighs in at 2080 pounds. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Todd....!! To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 9:16 AM Subject: Re: radiators? >Hello Mike, > >If ya go to your local auto parts store, they should have a HUGE book >full of pictures of radiators, with the dimensions under each pic! > >Just choose the one you want and maybe put up a bit a cash and it's >yours!! > >LATER! > >Todd....!! >P.S. - COOL project, that car must not weigh more than 1,500 lbs. if >THAT! > >Buddy bought one a while back, was gonna put a s.b. chev or ford in it, >but he didn't have the drive or the desire to even start the project! > >He got the idea to do the mini-vette opel GT after I did my 81 Pontiac >T1000 (Che-Vette) with a 400 s.b.c. and TH375 all outof a big ol impala >wagon... That thing booked and it weighed in at 2,345 after the >install... Used the STOCK rear-end, luckily it wasn't a posi ot I would >SURELY snapped it, it ran fine with the stock rear end, I think it was >like an 8 bolt or so(LOL) it was geared up for the lil 4 banger that it >came with so the 400 was pretty much wrappin out for any period of >distance at about 40 mph! I used an ol chev nova style radiator... >Didn't run a hood at first, but then the base security said somethin >about the hood being safety equipment????? can you BELIEVE it! That's >SO BOGUS!! So I cut the hood where the radiator and stock fan was >stickin up and hittin the hood and pinned it in the front with hood >pins, whalaa, prob solved, except at higher speeds the back of the hood >would tend to rise and flap a bit due to the engine air and fan wind >blowin some SERIOUS cfm underhood! > >LATER! > >Todd....!! >http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm >---------- > >Mike Pilkenton wrote: >> >> I know this is a little off topic for the efi list but I'm finishing up my >> 3.1L V6 engine transplant project into my Opel GT and it's time to think >> about cooling. Can anyone suggest a decent OEM radiator that would be >> sufficient for the GM 60 degree V6 and fit in a tight area say about 13 in >> tall by 16 in wide? >> >> Mike > > From S.Baly at bom.gov.au Wed May 19 02:13:10 1999 From: S.Baly at bom.gov.au (Stuart Baly) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 22:13:10 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: >If this opens a whole new box of problems, just ignore. But, I've noticed >what a huge change expansion chambers have had of VE in 2 strokes, and after >seeing the Mercedes Benz GT (Sedan, whatever they call em) with the v-6, and >3 into 1 exhausts, and running 2 expansion chambers (one per side), I just >wonder, how they came up with that... > Is it the shape of the cones or volume that makes a "E.C." work, or >both?. >Grumpy For a blue-smoke, it's the shape more than the volume. Things happen in this order: 1. the piston uncovers the exhaust port, sending a pressure pulse along the exhaust at the speed of sound. The exhaust gas begins travelling along the pipe somewhat slower than this. 2. the pressure pulse reaches the expanding part of the exhaust (i.e. increasing diameter). The change in diameter produces a reflected wave of lower pressure - this low pressure wave travels back towards the engine. 3. The piston, still travelling downwards, uncovers the transfer port. F uel-air mixture starts to displace exhaust gas from the cylinder. 4. The original pressure pulse reaches the reducing part of the exhaust (i.e. reducing diameter). This produces a reflected wave of higher pressure, travelling back towards the engine. 5. The reflected wave from pt. 2 reaches the engine - this draws the exhaust mixture from the cylinder, and in extreme cases, even draws some fuel-air into the exhaust. 6. The reflected wave from pt4. reaches the engine - this pushes the fuel-air back into the cylinder just in time for the rising piston to close the exhaust port off. I'm sure that the real world operation of a two-stroke exhaust system has many many more factors affecting it, and that this is a greatly sanitised version of reality, but it's a start. 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M"" &``````# ````````1@`````XA0```0````$`````````'@`]``$````% 5````4F4Z( `````#``TT_3<``.KW ` end From garfield at cyberlynk.com Wed May 19 03:15:48 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:15:48 -0400 Subject: Current/New ION information Message-ID: On Wed, 19 May 1999 08:15:17 +1000, Peter Gargano wrote: > http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/main.html >> "measuring the ION current, and in particular the "shape" of the ION current, >> based on pattern recognition of the ionization current" Hi Peter the ION-hearted. B) Just a few possibly sage observations (I'll leave you to decide :) from a ole fossil who's been gazing in rapt wonder at this area for awhile: You have to constrast and put the presented level of sophistication of these latest Swede papers in perspective, tho, methinks. If you consider where their PRACTICAL implementation came from (the original Saab patent tells the story; yes, the one with the schematic). And it began as a means of detecting misfire and providing cam decommutation, to eliminate the need for a cam sensor. If you look at the initial deployment from '90-'92, it did NOT provide for detonation detection. Next step: if you look at the follow-on system that replaced it in their Turbo cars, the so-called Trionic system that was intro'd in '93, and has been their mainstay ever since (looking carefully at their documentation is all that's really necessary), you'll find that while the pre-ignition, misfire, and cam decommutation ARE done within the Trionic module, the knock detection is NOT. Hmmm, plot thickens, eh? They pick off the raw ionization signal, handle the wee bairn with extreme care, and present it to a fast A/D port on the ECU. That's sorta mutha naitcha's way of saying it's not so easy to even detect detonation without some 'computational horsepower'. Doable, and doable well, judging from the success and lack of further major revisions in the Trionic system, but NOT so easy as to make it something to do in straight mixed-signal within the Trionic module. OK, so where am I going with this? Well, there's a pretty big leap from just being able to DETECT detonation (let's put it this way, to perform pattern recognition sufficient to discriminate between normal and detonating combustion), to being able to determine an order of magnitude more recognition and separate out many MORE and MUCH more subtle variations in the ionization "pattern", so that you can MEASURE things like cylinder pressure, and charge AFR, for example. Now, it's in the very nature of the beast, that you see in these papers quite alot of forward thinking and perhaps speculative thinking/results. But let me just point out one interesting thing to note about the Saab/Swede's publications and even their patents (or the lack of them) concerning their currently deployed system. AFAIK they have never actually shown/said how their *current* robust/practical/deployed system actually determines detonation. All we know is that the ECU ingests the ionization signal; that's it. We don't REALLY know if they do "pattern recognition" or even "spectral analysis" or even simply some sort of mundane filtering. What we DO know is that unlike the conditions in the research papers, their ECUs seem to do this discrimination bloody accurately AND bloody fast. That's why I said I thot you need to keep the level of sophistication being described in these papers, especially these multivariate pattern recognition schemes, in perspective. And also consider how much compute HP was available to the Saab ECUs in '93. Just some practical matters to consider. >I'd recommend all interested ION project people look at this article as it >also summarises much of the research that has been carried out to date. >It also provides a common information database from which we can all work from. There's actually even MORE stuff going on than the picture he paints. The Swedes are going in some interesting directions, but so are the Japanese, and you get a glimpse of that from the patent sifting AND some of the JP papers he DOESN'T site. B) I'll give ya two hints; if you look at the patents on the subject, you'll see LOTS more Japanese work in this area, and in diff. directions, than the Sweded, and much more work than is represented in his paltry references to JP papers. Second hint: scan the titles and authors of the SAE papers on this subject by doing your own search of the SAE documents, NOT via his bibliography In contrast to the Swede papers, OTOH, what you'll find in the JP papers is some GRADUALLY increasing sophistication to detect detonation, for example. And those DO NOT depend on the giant leap to "sophisticated pattern recognition" that the Swede's seem to imply. So finally, what's my point? Well, those papers and the bibliography you suggest above we use as a "common info database", might be fine if we wanted to step into the moving stream of Combustion Ionization research, but for us hobbyist-experimenters, methinks (at least this is true for me; I don't speak for everybody, obviously) that our interest is largely sorta tryna catch up with some of the cool albeit heretofore hidden things in engine technology, that some of the more advanced mfg's have been able to use and benefit from for some time. That's MY interest in ION, and it parallels pretty nicely the history of EGOR as well. Not too many of us are interested in keeping right up with the latest in O2 sensor physical chemistry so as to be able to be a real "practitioner in the art", but I DO know that many of us are interested in CATCHING up at least enough to be able to USE/play-with this better O2 sensing technology, which after all HAS been in use for yearsNyears, but hidden by a cloak of concealment for that long. Sure, we wanna know what's goin on with the latestNgreatest, but nobody's approaching EGOR by tryna catch up with the latest research; we're just tryna figure out how all these other bloaks have been doing for years!!! B) So the same obtains with ION, methinks. Sure, it IS neat and useful to read and glimpse the latest in ionization measurement research, but I warrant most of us are more interested in just GETTING to USE something that works as well as the stuff Saab has had deployed since '93!! And that brings me to my last BIG hint: it's in the JP papers, IMNSHO, that you will find the incremental advances and techniques that will help you to better understand how you could IMPLEMENT a robust detonation detection method. NO, you probly couldn't use the same approach to determine all these advanced parametric extractions that the Swede papers are discussing. But hey, there ya go! Take yer pick. B) Now, obviously since I've chosen to be a partial "concealment artist" meself, by being a vendor of electronics in this area (which I do outta necessity, not by preference), I can't tell ya any MORE at this point, cuz then I'd hafta shoot ya. Heh. Suffice it to say that IF you're interested in the more practical/mundane issues of how to make ION work for detonation detection, I recommend a more careful, balanced look at ALL the papers, and in particular that means the Japanese work. End of diatribe. >So, we're talking about engine optimisation, not just knock/pre-ignition >detection! Ah yep, pretty exciting, eh? The moment I read the first papers on this stuff, I too fell in LUV. That's why I thot it was completely appropriate to anthropomorphize this tecnology as a "beautiful lady named ION". Especially for an electrical type, the very idea of using the spark plug as a major sensory window into the combustion chamber, AND be able to tell so MUCH from interpreting the ionization picture is appealing enough to have an aura of beautific sublimnity. B) For the present, I'm sure many of us would be content to hear ION reveal her secrets about the mystery of detonation, but it IS neat to think that this one magical song may be just the beginning of her wispering much more poetry in our wondering ears. And to think, all this was lurking on the other side of the bloody spark-plugs!! Sheesh. B) Gar From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Wed May 19 06:08:13 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 02:08:13 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: At 12:47 PM 5/18/99 -0400, you wrote: >Just use manifold vacuum. Carb vacuum is ported so there is no vacuum at >idle. This can help or hurt the idle quality. Try it and see. > >Gary Derian > You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance can reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the throttle is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under heavy throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going to have some serious rethinking to do! Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com Wed May 19 08:03:31 1999 From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 04:03:31 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Hi Todd, I think it's great you have noticed all the bore/stroke combos for some of the chevs,,,,,,,,,somehow, someone at chrysler read grumpys or smokeys book about rod ratio and never learned anything else.....yes the right bore/stroke combo was discovered by chrysler and they tried real hard with the rod ratios,,,,,and if you ever noticed even most cam manufacturers even got the cams right.....single pattern cams with higher rod ratios,,,,,,but the short turn wasn't in the chrysler wedge head,,,there was a belief that there was no mass in the exhaust so design wasn't critical,,,,,,Ford did the same with the Cleveland heads....and yes it's all been fixed(somewhat) these days with the aftermarket stuff.......but you still have to have scavenging(unless it's a turbo or supercharged or restricted intake apps)...I don't exactly know where I'm going with this thread except to say rod ratios equate to a time constant and so does exhaust port flow and cam timing,,,,they can all work together or fight each other..... -Carl Summers In a message dated 99-05-18 11:16:35 EDT, you write: << Date: 99-05-18 11:16:35 EDT From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Sender: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Reply-to: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu All you mentioned is foreign to me... I am not of that era and have no friends with any of the good ol flat heads... Do have a friend with a couple a Hemi's buit they're all 426's and souped in the ol Cuda's... 28 mpg seems UNREAL to me right now.... What's the trick? throw a one barrel on it and highway gears and a LOT of air in some REALLY skinny tires and MAYBE I'll be in the teen's but I don't see 20 ANYTHING for gas mileage coming outa my pig! As for gear ratio, the goal is to hit red line in top gear when ya cross the finish line, that's the all around goal of gearing for best e.t... As for the AAR 340 in another car, in my mind the AAR Cuda deserves to have it's engine back! It deserves it and it DEFINITELY looks TOTALLY AWESOME! I passed up snaggin an AAR Cuda for $1,000 back in about 1988, STILL kickin myself! I had JUSt bought the BEE so I didn't think I needed another Mopar pig in the shed! The thing sold right before I found out what it was worth! It had a blown engine(Thrown rod) and the heads and 6 pac intake and carbs were stolen off of it, the body was in SUPER shape, it was orange with the black AAR strip kit! still had the turnouts in front of the rear tires as well as the cool 'glas? single scoop hood! As for the 440 turnin the rpm's... FYI, if'n ya don't already know... A small block chev 302 engine's bore is 4 inches, stroke is 3.00 inches A small block chev 327 engine's bore is 4 inches, stroke is 3.25 inches A small block chev 350 engine's bore is 4 inches, stroke is 3.50 inches A small block chev 400 engine's bore is 4.125 inches, stroke is 3.75 inches A BIG block chev 427 engine's bore is 4.25 inches, stroke is 3.75 inches A BIG block chev 454 engine's bore is 4.25 inches, stroke is 4.00 inches If we took, for example, a Big Block chev engine with a 4.25 inch bore, like say a 454 block and DE-STROKED the crank to in between a 327 and 350 at say about a 3.37 stroke, this would give you the dimensions of a 383 Mopar engine! Can you imagine what a cehv 454 destroked to a shorter stroke than a 350 chev would rev like? Well, you know what it could sound like whenever ya here a 383 Mopar engine rev! Super quick! Then ya have the 440 Mopar which comes from the factory with a 4.32 inch bore and a 3.75 inch stroke (Same as the 427 Chev b.b.) A 400 Mopar engine has even a BIGGER bore than the 440 at 4.34! AND the stroke is the same as the 383!!! which again is abotu 3.38 inches! a 400 Mopar engine is like taking a 454 engine with a 4.25 inch bore, boring it out .090, which is hardly ever done on the B.B. Chev due to cyl wall thickness and safety THEN DE_STROKIN the sucker to a shorter stroke than a 350 chev!! The 400 Mopar is where it's at if ya want a high revvin engine! What some people do to the 400 Mopar is throw the 3.75 inch 440 crank into the 400 block and create a REALLY lightweight internal 451 stroker motor! http://www.musclemotors.com sells the kit for this build in various forms and completedness... One of the GREAT things about these Mopar engine's is that they cost less at the bone yards than even the s.b. chevs or Ford's, I assume due to the law of supply and demand, more people but chev's and Fordsouta the yards than Mopars... I picked my 440 up for $135 at the local Pic-Ur-Part self-help junk yard... Rebuilt it and had it in the car for about $1,300 TOTAL including the price of the junkyard engine! Sure I'm only runnin low 13's so far, but I have my probs and it's not the engine itself, it's the ignition system, i.e. cheap plugs and wires, as well as carburetor 'issues'... Tippin the scales at 3,710 lbs. without driver doesn't help things much! Will be in the 12's soon, after installin new Accel 8 mm wires and accel non resistor plugs and buddies race 750 and losin the rest of the junk in the car after a good cleanout.... Hopefully she'll hook up this time, maybe use some VHT this time as well!! And some octane booster or race fuel! LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm CLsnyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd....!! > To: > From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com Wed May 19 08:10:15 1999 From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 04:10:15 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Hi all, I could be wrong at this, but what I have seen is, ported vacuum is dead at idle, because it is above the butterfly....and as throttle is increased, vacuum is generated at the "port" and does not go away at full throttle,,,,,great for emissions but terrible for performance,,,,,the same for MPG.... -Carl Summers In a message dated 99-05-19 02:14:13 EDT, you write: << > You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance can reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the throttle is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under heavy throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going to have some serious rethinking to do! Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 >> From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 19 11:14:48 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:14:48 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: Someone the other day mentioned having a very confined area for a radiator. I just recalled one way of "helping". It involves dividing up the radiator so that the coolant rather than just going from side to side has to criss cross the radiator several times. This is done by adding several barriers internal to the side tanks. On the "cold" side of the radiator a divider plate is installed 2/3 of the way down from the top, and on the hot side, a divider is added 1/3 of the way down, so the coolant has to travel back and forth 3 times rather than once. If your out for the gold, you might have to play with the water pump speed, some Grumpy From gderian at oh.verio.com Wed May 19 11:48:34 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:48:34 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: A megaphone works like a variable length pipe. High frequencies reflect back close in and low frequencies reflect back more towards the larger end. This broadens the sweet spot. 2 stroke engines work very differently. The first part, the diverging area, of the expansion chamber reflects a negative pressure wave to suck the air fuel charge into the exhaust while the transfer ports are still open. This extends the intake cycle. The second part, the converging area, reflects back a positive pressure wave to push it back in after the transfer ports close but the exhaust is still open. A properly tuned pipe makes a 50% to 70% improvement in power. Did the Mercedes actually have a 2 stroke style expansion chamber or were they megaphones with little converging sections at the very end. Grand Prix motorcycles have used diverging/converging megaphones since the 60's but they are not the same as 2 stroke expansion chambers. Gary Derian > >If this opens a whole new box of problems, just ignore. But, I've noticed > >what a huge change expansion chambers have had of VE in 2 strokes, and after > >seeing the Mercedes Benz GT (Sedan, whatever they call em) with the v-6, and > >3 into 1 exhausts, and running 2 expansion chambers (one per side), I just > >wonder, how they came up with that... > > Is it the shape of the cones or volume that makes a "E.C." work, or > >both?. > >Grumpy > > > > Both. Megaphones convert velocity to static pressure pretty efficiently. > > Greg > From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 19 11:53:06 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:53:06 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Kinda depends on the WOT pressure drop across the carb., and spring rate of the vac, advance used. Even with the same no. degrees per amount of vac., by different spring rates/dia. combinations things could vary. Going from 6-10 start to 20 something at 700rpm, 30 something at WOT (@3,000 rpm), and 40ish at cruise with a OD kinda hard to do thata way (mechanical). Hence the real beauty of ecm's, IMHO. Grumpy | I could be wrong at this, but what I have seen is, ported vacuum is dead | at idle, because it is above the butterfly....and as throttle is increased, | vacuum is generated at the "port" and does not go away at full | throttle,,,,,great for emissions but terrible for performance,,,,,the same | for MPG.... | -Carl Summers | You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance can | reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the throttle | is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at | which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under heavy | throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the | engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide | extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further | illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going to | have some serious rethinking to do! | Aaron Willis From claresnyder at home.com Wed May 19 12:03:47 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:03:47 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Willis To: Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 2:06 AM Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED > At 12:47 PM 5/18/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Just use manifold vacuum. Carb vacuum is ported so there is no vacuum at > >idle. This can help or hurt the idle quality. Try it and see. > > > >Gary Derian > > > > > You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance can > reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the throttle > is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at > which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under heavy > throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the > engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide > extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further > illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going to > have some serious rethinking to do! > > > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International Ported vacuum is also known as Venturi Vacuum. The only time it is zero is with the engine shut off or at idle. As soon as you have airflow you have advance - although it is reduced at WOT. Some implementations just take the vacuum from above the throttle plate and below the venturi. These will lose most of the vacuum at WOT. Switching from port to manifold on a slant six helped the midrange power and driveability considerably, but sure hurt economy. By the way, Aaron - that AOL IM brings back memories. Back when the Golden Triangle Drag Park, or Toronto International Dragway was in operation, Jack Frame Toyota campaigned a little 1972? Corolla 1600 in showroom stock called the Hemiyota. Balanced and blueprinted with open exhaust it kicked major butt. I worked for Fleetline Toyota (Waterloo) at the time. From pford at qnx.com Wed May 19 12:07:41 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:07:41 -0400 Subject: O2 sensor and water Message-ID: Previously, you (Squash) wrote: > --- Pat Ford wrote: > > I've > > cracked then on my landie and subarus ( the subies > > are > > right at the bottom of the y pipe anything more then > > 8" > > would flood the outside of the sensor and the > > thermal > > gradient popped them (they would leak exhaust). the > > What type of sensor was this? Was it a porcelain or a > steel cased one? the sub was a porcelain one ( looks like a sparkplug) the land rover was stainless steel casing > > Andy > _____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From spectro at ma.ultranet.com Wed May 19 12:51:24 1999 From: spectro at ma.ultranet.com (SPECTRO COATING CORP.) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:51:24 -0400 Subject: Supercharged 440 Message-ID: Walt asked about my comment on the 440 >... & an 8V-71 supercharged & >>injected 440 Chrysler (on the engine stand). > >Jason, what kind of injection are you running on the 440? Above or below >the blower? Does it have a home yet? I believe this is more DIY_EFI related so I'll relay it to the list The 440 is using an Offy 2 - 4bbl intake that has been modified to accept some bolt on injector bosses that I made. I chose the 8V-71 blower to provide clearance for the injectors & rails (it has tapered sides for those of you that haven't seen one) An adapter plate (1/2" aluminum plate) mates the manifold to the blower. I had intended to use a LT-1 ECU and am reworking a cast aluminum front cover to accept the LT-1 cam driven optical distributor. Rob at Force fuel injection told me that i better add enrichment fuel to the top of the blower (roots have low efficiency you know) to provide some additional cooling so I'm working on that now. I dunno how is the best way to drive the additional injectors though - any ideas on an inexpensive additional injector driver would be appreciated (Question - is it possible - or practical - to use an OEM ecu with just enough inputs to make it work as an injector driver) Thers's a lot more to talk about, but I'll let you people ask what you want to hear about. Oh - no there's no home for it yet - I sold my '73 Cuda to my best friend up in Maine. He allowed that we should put it in when i get it done. - Jason From bearbvd at sni.net Wed May 19 13:06:27 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:06:27 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: >At 12:47 PM 5/18/99 -0400, you wrote: >>Just use manifold vacuum. Carb vacuum is ported so there is no vacuum at >>idle. This can help or hurt the idle quality. Try it and see. >> >>Gary Derian >> > > > You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance can >reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the throttle >is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at >which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under heavy >throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the >engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide >extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further >illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going to >have some serious rethinking to do! Sorry Aaron-- Ported vacuum was first used to provide LESS advance at idle so as to decrease idle emissions! (But to still keep more like the ideal advance at cruise.) Regards, Greg > > > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From gderian at oh.verio.com Wed May 19 13:16:15 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:16:15 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: There are two kinds of ported vacuum on carbs. The EGR vacuum works like Aaron described. Its purpose was to gradually feed more EGR as the throttle is opened. Its port is a tall slot in the throttle bore. As the throttle is opened, the throttle plate rises along the slot which feeds more vacuum to the port. The other type of ported vacuum is just a small port above the throttle. As soon as you go above idle, it applies full manifold vacuum. Its purpose is to reduce timing at idle to just the static advance. Not considering emissions, some engines idle smoother with less advance. After 1968, all engines used ported vacuum advance. Before 1968, some did and some didn't. Both types of ported vacuum are limited to the maximum manifold vacuum available and go away as one approaches full throttle. There is also venturi vacuum which is way smaller than manifold vacuum but it increases with air flow. The Ford small in line 6's from the early 60's used some kind of all vacuum distributor connected to both manifold and venturi vacuum (I think). It was claimed to provide improved economy. Venturi vacuum is also used in some EGR control schemes. Gary Derian > Hi all, > I could be wrong at this, but what I have seen is, ported vacuum is dead > at idle, because it is above the butterfly....and as throttle is increased, > vacuum is generated at the "port" and does not go away at full > throttle,,,,,great for emissions but terrible for performance,,,,,the same > for MPG.... > -Carl Summers > > > You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance can > reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the throttle > is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at > which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under heavy > throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the > engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide > extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further > illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going to > have some serious rethinking to do! > > > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 >> From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Wed May 19 15:00:41 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:00:41 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Everyone has had good points. Put them all together and you about have all the different ways portd vacumn was/is used. Yes there are 3 different "types" and they all work differently. 1. Transfer slot. nothing at idle, large amounts at limited throttle openings, nothing at WOT unless the carb is small for the engine in which case you start getting vacumn at higher engine speeds. 2. Above throttle. Nothing at idle, small amounts at minimal throttle , larger amounts at mid throttle settings, nothing at WOT again size dependant. 3. Venturi. Increasing amounts as air flow increases has vacumn at all throttle openings even WOT. ever wonder why we have spred bore carbs? and why they have better throttle responce etc.? Part of it has to do with avalable vacumn for the ported systems. A simple view. At idle manifold vacumn is confined below the throttle plates. As the throttle is openned manifold vacumn "climbs" to the base of the venturi. Add the chike plate as the last "restriction" to manifold vacumn. Actually ported vacumn was originly used to combat idle instability with a big cam. As the big cam has so little manifold vacumn at idle if a vacumn advance has a low enough spring rate to allow it to stay engaged at idle you started getting it at WOT with single carb apps before the advent of very large single 4bbls. Increase the spring rate to eliminate it at WOT and usually you would run into a situation where the idle vacumn was just enough to give you some advance but not consistantly. As we all know all else being equal, and if the amount of advance isn't excessive, the idle will climb. So sometimes the idle would climb enough to effect even more vacumn raising the idle even further. The opposite was also true less vacumn lower idle etc. I think you can see the point here. As carbs got larg enough to overcome this problem ported vacumn became the norm for both emissions and drivability. See above for part of it. The rest has to do with getting the advance when it is needed the most. Ported systems tend to give you the best of both worlds. Stable, low emissions, idles with propotional vacumn signal at part throttle. Nothing at WOT. So is everyone as confused as I am by my explaination?? LOL Scott From kenkelly at lucent.com Wed May 19 15:06:49 1999 From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:06:49 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Good response! However, there were a few engines in the 70's that didn't used ported advance. The Oldsmobile 350 "R" engine from 76-78 was an example. My 77 Olds 350R always failed the NJ State Emmissions test by 10% high HC because it used manifold vacuum for advance at idle. If I plugged the vacuum advance, and reset the idle speed to stock, it would pass at about half the state HC level, but the milage and drivability were terrible! It was a common problem with these engines, and the emmission test. However in stock form it was one of the most responsive late 70's engine, and it had great gas milage. After owning it for 17 years and 17 inspections I got to be able to switch it back and forth in 5 minutes. Ken Gary Derian wrote: > > There are two kinds of ported vacuum on carbs. The EGR vacuum works like > Aaron described. Its purpose was to gradually feed more EGR as the throttle > is opened. Its port is a tall slot in the throttle bore. As the throttle > is opened, the throttle plate rises along the slot which feeds more vacuum > to the port. The other type of ported vacuum is just a small port above the > throttle. As soon as you go above idle, it applies full manifold vacuum. > Its purpose is to reduce timing at idle to just the static advance. Not > considering emissions, some engines idle smoother with less advance. After > 1968, all engines used ported vacuum advance. Before 1968, some did and > some didn't. Both types of ported vacuum are limited to the maximum > manifold vacuum available and go away as one approaches full throttle. > There is also venturi vacuum which is way smaller than manifold vacuum but > it increases with air flow. The Ford small in line 6's from the early 60's > used some kind of all vacuum distributor connected to both manifold and > venturi vacuum (I think). It was claimed to provide improved economy. > Venturi vacuum is also used in some EGR control schemes. > > Gary Derian > > > Hi all, > > I could be wrong at this, but what I have seen is, ported vacuum is > dead > > at idle, because it is above the butterfly....and as throttle is > increased, > > vacuum is generated at the "port" and does not go away at full > > throttle,,,,,great for emissions but terrible for performance,,,,,the same > > for MPG.... > > -Carl Summers > > > > > > You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance can > > reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the > throttle > > is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at > > which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under > heavy > > throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the > > engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide > > extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further > > illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going > to > > have some serious rethinking to do! > > > > > > Aaron Willis > > ICQ #27386985 >> From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 19 15:29:42 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:29:42 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Venturi vac is not considered to be the same as ported vacuum, The venturi's are up in the top of the carb, the ports are way down in the manifold... two TOTALLY different vac readings... The vac advance vacuum should be from a vac source which is located between the throttle blades and the intake valves... known as port vac.. CL, your theory is pretty correct, for a naturally aspirated car with no form of ram air... However, with a turbo/supercharged/SERIOUS ram air car(at high speed) manifold vac can read anywhere from neg to pos...depending on the conditions... On the turbo/supercharged cars, if the timing isn't controlled by computer, then the vac must be pulled from a different source... Sincerely, Todd....!! ----- CLsnyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aaron Willis > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 2:06 AM > Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED > > > At 12:47 PM 5/18/99 -0400, you wrote: > > >Just use manifold vacuum. Carb vacuum is ported so there is no vacuum at > > >idle. This can help or hurt the idle quality. Try it and see. > > > > > >Gary Derian > > > > > > > > > You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance can > > reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the throttle > > is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at > > which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under heavy > > throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the > > engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide > > extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further > > illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going to > > have some serious rethinking to do! > > > > > > Aaron Willis > > ICQ #27386985 > > AOL IM: hemiyota > > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International > > Ported vacuum is also known as Venturi Vacuum. The only time it is zero is > with the engine shut off or at idle. As soon as you have airflow you have > advance - although it is reduced at WOT. Some implementations just take the > vacuum from above the throttle plate and below the venturi. These will lose > most of the vacuum at WOT. > > Switching from port to manifold on a slant six helped the midrange power and > driveability considerably, but sure hurt economy. > > By the way, Aaron - that AOL IM brings back memories. Back when the Golden > Triangle Drag Park, or Toronto International Dragway was in operation, Jack > Frame Toyota campaigned a little 1972? Corolla 1600 in showroom stock called > the Hemiyota. Balanced and blueprinted with open exhaust it kicked major > butt. I worked for Fleetline Toyota (Waterloo) at the time. From clive at problem.tantech.com Wed May 19 15:34:16 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:34:16 -0400 Subject: EGOR, ION, Trionic Message-ID: is anyone on this list in the vicintity of Charles City VA I have a source for a bunch of defective Trionic (SAAB) modules you would have to go pick them up email off list for details clive at problem.tantech.com Clive From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 19 15:35:09 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:35:09 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: I confir... Great idea Bruce, I'm thinkin about doin at LEAST one block plate in my 440 Bee... However I have a top and bottom radiator in it now, that may hender this theory a bit... Will be researchin this type setup.... LATER! Todd....!! Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Someone the other day mentioned having a very confined area for a radiator. > I just recalled one way of "helping". > It involves dividing up the radiator so that the coolant rather than just > going from side to side has to criss cross the radiator several times. > This is done by adding several barriers internal to the side tanks. On > the "cold" side of the radiator a divider plate is installed 2/3 of the way > down from the top, and on the hot side, a divider is added 1/3 of the way > down, so the coolant has to travel back and forth 3 times rather than once. > If your out for the gold, you might have to play with the water pump > speed, some > Grumpy From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com Wed May 19 15:42:08 1999 From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:42:08 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: The problem with going to manifold vac on some HEI's is that the vac can has as much as 25 degrees (crank) advance built in. with say 12 degrees initial you have 37 degrees at idle, then when you start to get into it the cent. advance starts and the knocken commences. If you go manifold vac change the can to one with 10 degrees (crank). Now you have 22 degrees (crank) changing to lighters springs will bring the cent curve in quicker also. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: bearbvd at sni.net [SMTP:bearbvd at sni.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 8:07 AM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED > > >At 12:47 PM 5/18/99 -0400, you wrote: > >>Just use manifold vacuum. Carb vacuum is ported so there is no vacuum > at > >>idle. This can help or hurt the idle quality. Try it and see. > >> > >>Gary Derian > >> > > > > > > You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance > can > >reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the > throttle > >is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at > >which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under > heavy > >throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the > >engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide > >extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further > >illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going > to > >have some serious rethinking to do! > > Sorry Aaron-- > > Ported vacuum was first used to provide LESS advance at idle so as to > decrease idle emissions! (But to still keep more like the ideal advance at > cruise.) > > Regards, Greg > > > > > > Aaron Willis > > ICQ #27386985 > > AOL IM: hemiyota > > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International > From bearbvd at sni.net Wed May 19 15:53:33 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:53:33 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: >Someone the other day mentioned having a very confined area for a radiator. >I just recalled one way of "helping". >It involves dividing up the radiator so that the coolant rather than just >going from side to side has to criss cross the radiator several times. > This is done by adding several barriers internal to the side tanks. On >the "cold" side of the radiator a divider plate is installed 2/3 of the way >down from the top, and on the hot side, a divider is added 1/3 of the way >down, so the coolant has to travel back and forth 3 times rather than once. > If your out for the gold, you might have to play with the water pump >speed, some >Grumpy Grumpy-- You been checking out the radiator set-up on some of the late model, aero nose K-Whoppers? Greg From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Wed May 19 16:47:32 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:47:32 -0400 Subject: VE tables Message-ID: > > Is your goal in reducing teh amount of fuel to find that fine line > between extra fuel cooling teh conbustion vs. loadin up the cylinder > with extra fuel? or what? Just wonderinnnnnnnn........ Just trying to tune for max performance... Superchips bumped the VE from 85-90% to 100-105% through most of the upper RPM ranges... Mileage dropped and setting PE VS RPM to 0% (from 10%) still has O2 voltages at ~900mv at WOT. I had to go to about -15% before it dropped to the 800-850mv range... Stock, the chip was too rich at WOT, now it's bunches richer. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 19 17:18:10 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:18:10 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: > What diameter and wall thickness was the tubin ya used? I used suspension tubing, which is 3/4" outer diameter tubing, with a inner diameter suitable for threading 1/2", so its slightly less than 1/2" internal diameter. Buy, clamp, and tap. Couldn't be any easier for that part. Welding on blocks to mate with the injector was a little more complex, but not impossible. TIG weld or use www.durafix.com. I've found out the hard way that MIG welding aluminum is set aside for welding gods. > Aren't they usually billet rails? or are the billet rails just show Billet is pretty. But I can polish my aluminum rod, so no big deal. -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Wed May 19 17:22:30 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:22:30 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: At 10:39 AM 5/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >The problem with going to manifold vac on some HEI's is that the vac can has >as much as 25 degrees (crank) advance built in. >with say 12 degrees initial you have 37 degrees at idle, then when you >start to get into it the cent. advance starts and the knocken >commences. If you go manifold vac change the can to one with 10 degrees >(crank). Now you have 22 degrees (crank) changing to lighters springs will >bring the cent curve in quicker also. > Don > Obviously not an HEI, but my '72 MGB was set like this as well, and acted just the same. Recently found out that this was the case and that the vacuum should have been ported, which is why I put my hand up on this post in the first place. Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Wed May 19 17:34:07 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:34:07 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: At 07:07 AM 5/19/99 -0600, you wrote: >> You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance can >>reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the throttle >>is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at >>which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under heavy >>throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the >>engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide >>extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further >>illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going to >>have some serious rethinking to do! > >Sorry Aaron-- > >Ported vacuum was first used to provide LESS advance at idle so as to >decrease idle emissions! (But to still keep more like the ideal advance at >cruise.) > >Regards, Greg Right right right, that's what I said! The vacuum advance curve BEGINS (meaning at idle there is none) as the throttle is opened, and increases with higher throttle openings as mentioned above. Maybe I wasn't totally clear on that. Thanks everybody for clearing this up... Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From pford at qnx.com Wed May 19 17:37:32 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:37:32 -0400 Subject: EGOR, ION, Trionic Message-ID: Previously, you (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) wrote: > > is anyone on this list in the vicintity of Charles City VA > I have a source for a bunch of defective Trionic (SAAB) modules > I'd be interested but I'm up in Canada 8( > you would have to go pick them up > > email off list for details if you find someone could you have them pick one up for me? > > > clive at problem.tantech.com > > Clive > -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From gderian at oh.verio.com Wed May 19 17:52:58 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:52:58 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: The way I see it, the coolant now "sees" a radiator that is 1/3 as high and 3 times longer. Why does this cool better than normal. The log delta T is the same, no? Is it a flow turbulence thing? That is the only change I see. Gary Derian > >Someone the other day mentioned having a very confined area for a radiator. > >I just recalled one way of "helping". > >It involves dividing up the radiator so that the coolant rather than just > >going from side to side has to criss cross the radiator several times. > > This is done by adding several barriers internal to the side tanks. On > >the "cold" side of the radiator a divider plate is installed 2/3 of the way > >down from the top, and on the hot side, a divider is added 1/3 of the way > >down, so the coolant has to travel back and forth 3 times rather than once. > > If your out for the gold, you might have to play with the water pump > >speed, some > >Grumpy > > Grumpy-- > > You been checking out the radiator set-up on some of the late model, aero > nose K-Whoppers? > > Greg > From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 19 18:24:45 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:24:45 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: > Sounds like Fred got one of his from a TURBO SUNBIRD... That I did! The 7749's are in several vehicles... check Ludis's detailed site and you can see. I tried to cut and past but for some reason Windows blew up. http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/p4xref.html#1227749 -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 19 18:24:52 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:24:52 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: > cyl wall thickness and safety THEN DE_STROKIN the sucker to a shorter > stroke than a 350 chev!! I think you are making this too complicated... If you want the B block, do up a 400cid block with a 440 steel crank, 440 YJ rods, and wiseco pistons. The crank journals get turned down to the right diameter to match the B block, and there you have it... a 451 stroker engine. Better yet, use the 383 block which certain years have thicker cyl walls, stroke it to 431 cid, then add two turbos. Watch my taillights :) Picture a hair over 700 HP at a mere 4200 RPM. > The 400 Mopar is where it's at if ya want a high revvin engine! Why rev? The "jerk" force at the top of the stroke, when the crank starts to bring the piston down, increases exponentially with RPM increases. So, keep the RPMs low, boost the hell out of it, and get your power that way. You'll break less parts in the long run. Based on a past life I revved 500cid blocks all the way into the 10k's and look at all the pretty, overpriced, titanium parts that flew all over. > into the 400 block and create a REALLY lightweight internal 451 stroker > motor! Using aluminum pistons make things even lighter, at a tradeoff of piston skirt expansion, thus requiring more clearance in the bores, thus more blow-by until things heat up to operating temperature. > to the law of supply and demand, more people but chev's and Fordsouta > the yards than Mopars... For V8 engines, that's true here in Connecticut too. -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From clint at clintsmc.demon.co.uk Wed May 19 18:58:58 1999 From: clint at clintsmc.demon.co.uk (Clint Sharp) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:58:58 -0400 Subject: new auto scam Message-ID: Talking of scams, can anyone confirm my suspicion that Broquet fuel catalyst pellets are a scam? I have searched the web and found very little info apart from the stuff the manufacturer and distributors publish. -- Clint Sharp From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 19 19:41:32 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:41:32 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: > The way I see it, the coolant now "sees" a radiator that is 1/3 as high and > 3 times longer. Why does this cool better than normal. The log delta T is > the same, no? Is it a flow turbulence thing? That is the only change I > see. Here would be my guess... If you increase the width of the radiator, the coolant has to move further to reach the other side and be sucked back into the system, therefore its exposed to the ambient (and hopefully cooler) air temperature, which reduces the temperature of the coolant going back in. While my dilbert-cube-mates think I'm insane, I just tried something that you can do that will illustrate the point. Run the hot water on your faucet for a few minutes, until the temperature is constant. Stick a thermometer into a coffee mug, then fill it with hot water. Record temperature. Then, using a second thermometer, or cool off the first one to room temperature, repeat the experiment, however use the hose with the spray gun, which typically has 5-6 feet of hose under it. The temperature in the mug is consistantly 5-6 degrees colder. I did this 3 times to make sure. Longer hose, more distance traveled, more energy (heat) lost or radiated into "space". -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Wed May 19 20:10:15 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:10:15 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > The way I see it, the coolant now "sees" a radiator that is 1/3 as high and > > 3 times longer. Why does this cool better than normal. The log delta T is > > the same, no? Is it a flow turbulence thing? That is the only change I > > see. > > Here would be my guess... > > If you increase the width of the radiator, the coolant has to move > further to reach the other side and be sucked back into the system, > therefore its exposed to the ambient (and hopefully cooler) air > temperature, which reduces the temperature of the coolant going back > in. But, heat lost is proportional to the temperature delta. As the water passes through this longer radiator you dump less and less heat because the temp delta is getting closer to zero. Maybe Gary can weigh in here but I think you want the radiator at the highest possible average temperature to maximize heat transfer. That situation is achieved by the "parallel" radiator, not the serial radiator. --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From gderian at oh.verio.com Wed May 19 20:38:53 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:38:53 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: The coffee mug experiment does not duplicate the radiator conditions. It is no surprise that water that travels through a few feet of hose and a spray head is cooler than water that does not. In the radiator, the average residence time is the same each way, 3x speed for 3x distance vs. 1x speed for 1x distance. Wouldn't the OEM's build radiators this way if it were better? Of course they would make it smaller to save money for the same cooling. Gary Derian > > The way I see it, the coolant now "sees" a radiator that is 1/3 as high and > > 3 times longer. Why does this cool better than normal. The log delta T is > > the same, no? Is it a flow turbulence thing? That is the only change I > > see. > > Here would be my guess... > > If you increase the width of the radiator, the coolant has to move > further to reach the other side and be sucked back into the system, > therefore its exposed to the ambient (and hopefully cooler) air > temperature, which reduces the temperature of the coolant going back > in. > > While my dilbert-cube-mates think I'm insane, I just tried something > that you can do that will illustrate the point. > > Run the hot water on your faucet for a few minutes, until the > temperature is constant. Stick a thermometer into a coffee mug, then > fill it with hot water. Record temperature. > > Then, using a second thermometer, or cool off the first one to room > temperature, repeat the experiment, however use the hose with the > spray gun, which typically has 5-6 feet of hose under it. The > temperature in the mug is consistantly 5-6 degrees colder. I did this > 3 times to make sure. > > Longer hose, more distance traveled, more energy (heat) lost or > radiated into "space". > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From kenkelly at lucent.com Wed May 19 20:39:32 1999 From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:39:32 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: Frederic, I think you are missing a point. If you divide the radiator into thirds then the water has to flow three times as fast in each tube to maintain the flow rate. Therefore the time the water remains in the radiator is the same in both cases. Ken Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > The way I see it, the coolant now "sees" a radiator that is 1/3 as high and > > 3 times longer. Why does this cool better than normal. The log delta T is > > the same, no? Is it a flow turbulence thing? That is the only change I > > see. > > Here would be my guess... > > If you increase the width of the radiator, the coolant has to move > further to reach the other side and be sucked back into the system, > therefore its exposed to the ambient (and hopefully cooler) air > temperature, which reduces the temperature of the coolant going back > in. > > While my dilbert-cube-mates think I'm insane, I just tried something > that you can do that will illustrate the point. > > Run the hot water on your faucet for a few minutes, until the > temperature is constant. Stick a thermometer into a coffee mug, then > fill it with hot water. Record temperature. > > Then, using a second thermometer, or cool off the first one to room > temperature, repeat the experiment, however use the hose with the > spray gun, which typically has 5-6 feet of hose under it. The > temperature in the mug is consistantly 5-6 degrees colder. I did this > 3 times to make sure. > > Longer hose, more distance traveled, more energy (heat) lost or > radiated into "space". > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From gderian at oh.verio.com Wed May 19 20:43:21 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:43:21 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: Certainly, the higher the delta T the higher the heat rejection. It seems to me that its the same with a tall/narrow or low/wide of equal area. Gary Derian > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > The way I see it, the coolant now "sees" a radiator that is 1/3 as high and > > > 3 times longer. Why does this cool better than normal. The log delta T is > > > the same, no? Is it a flow turbulence thing? That is the only change I > > > see. > > > > Here would be my guess... > > > > If you increase the width of the radiator, the coolant has to move > > further to reach the other side and be sucked back into the system, > > therefore its exposed to the ambient (and hopefully cooler) air > > temperature, which reduces the temperature of the coolant going back > > in. > > But, heat lost is proportional to the temperature delta. As the water > passes through this longer radiator you dump less and less heat because > the temp delta is getting closer to zero. Maybe Gary can weigh in here > but I think you want the radiator at the highest possible average > temperature to maximize heat transfer. That situation is achieved by > the "parallel" radiator, not the serial radiator. > > > --steve > > -- > Steve Ravet > steve.ravet at arm.com > Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. > www.arm.com From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 19 21:25:05 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:25:05 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: My Mopar is setup with 38 degrees TOTAL including mechanical advance, and 56 degrees total including the vacuum advance, the initial timing at the crank does not concern me as long as the mechnical and vac are in line, and they are right in lign with the factory specs... Any more timing than 38 mechanical will cause the thing to ping at acceleration... I set it by ear a while back, then put the timing light to it and foudn that I was at about 38.75 degrees, I had adjusted it so that it wouldn't ping during acceleration, and 38 seems to be the ticket... And I'm pushin 195 to 205 lbs. of air with the compression tester in this 440 even with open chambered heads and totally flat top pistons! (No valve reliefs) I also used the steel shim head gaskets (.022 compressed thickness) With an iddy biddy Mopar purpleshaft 284/.484 hyd cam! No millin or nothin... Go figure! Later! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com wrote: > > The problem with going to manifold vac on some HEI's is that the vac can has > as much as 25 degrees (crank) advance built in. > with say 12 degrees initial you have 37 degrees at idle, then when you > start to get into it the cent. advance starts and the knocken > commences. If you go manifold vac change the can to one with 10 degrees > (crank). Now you have 22 degrees (crank) changing to lighters springs will > bring the cent curve in quicker also. > Don > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: bearbvd at sni.net [SMTP:bearbvd at sni.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 8:07 AM > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: Re: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED > > > > >At 12:47 PM 5/18/99 -0400, you wrote: > > >>Just use manifold vacuum. Carb vacuum is ported so there is no vacuum > > at > > >>idle. This can help or hurt the idle quality. Try it and see. > > >> > > >>Gary Derian > > >> > > > > > > > > > You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance > > can > > >reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the > > throttle > > >is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at > > >which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under > > heavy > > >throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the > > >engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide > > >extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further > > >illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going > > to > > >have some serious rethinking to do! > > > > Sorry Aaron-- > > > > Ported vacuum was first used to provide LESS advance at idle so as to > > decrease idle emissions! (But to still keep more like the ideal advance at > > cruise.) > > > > Regards, Greg > > > > > > > > > Aaron Willis > > > ICQ #27386985 > > > AOL IM: hemiyota > > > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International > > From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 19 21:25:13 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:25:13 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: The way I was taught to roughly but effectively 'tune' my exhaust system on my 4 stroke v-8's engine's is to bolt about a 2 or 3 foot pipe to the header collector paint it black with some spray paint (preferably BEFORE installing the pipe) then do a run down the strip... After runnin the car at WOT for a 1/4, there will be a point on the 'tuning' pipe where the paint has been burned off, and a point further up towards the header where the paint isn't burnt at all! At the point where the paint begins being burnt is where ya cut the pipe.. Whalaa instantly tuned exhaust... I've never heard a technical explanation of why this works or even if it helps or hurts or is just a guess at the correct length of exhaust pipe... But after readin all this about a 2-stroke Mr. Helmholz resonance model and how it's applicable to at least a two stroker... I had to post my 'tuning' rules as passed down to me by a pretty smart engine builder/tuner... Any additional info on the 'tuning' technique I've described above? Thanks for anything! Will most likely be runnin the 97 Stratus with a 4 banger, 4 vlvs/ cyl 2.0 liter automatic to the strip this evenin.... Wanna see what she does before I decide to either keep er or give her back to ol Chrysler... It DEFINITELY beats the HECK outa my 70 Bee as far as gas mileage, but the torque department is lackin a bit.... what's it got like 130 lb ft vs 500+ from the Bee's 440... We'll see... $160+ per month for gas for the Bee vs. MAX $60/month for gas for the Stratus... If she breaks into the 16's this evenin, I'll be pretty happy! Will keep ya'll posted... ALSO, the Stratus' engine cuts off at like 85 mph, would any of ya'll know how to bypass this? It's a speedometer thing, I believe cuz the rpm's aren't much over like 3,000 or so at this speed, the red line is 6,000... so it's not an rpm limiter(Maybe a combination?) Any clues would help tremendously! Thanks! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Stuart Baly wrote: > > >If this opens a whole new box of problems, just ignore. But, I've noticed > >what a huge change expansion chambers have had of VE in 2 strokes, and > after > >seeing the Mercedes Benz GT (Sedan, whatever they call em) with the v-6, > and > >3 into 1 exhausts, and running 2 expansion chambers (one per side), I just > >wonder, how they came up with that... > > Is it the shape of the cones or volume that makes a "E.C." work, or > >both?. > >Grumpy > > For a blue-smoke, it's the shape more than the volume. Things happen in > this order: > 1. the piston uncovers the exhaust port, sending a pressure pulse along the > exhaust at the speed of sound. The exhaust gas begins travelling along the > pipe somewhat slower than this. > 2. the pressure pulse reaches the expanding part of the exhaust (i.e. > increasing diameter). The change in diameter produces a reflected wave of > lower pressure - this low pressure wave travels back towards the engine. > 3. The piston, still travelling downwards, uncovers the transfer port. F > uel-air mixture starts to displace exhaust gas from the cylinder. > 4. The original pressure pulse reaches the reducing part of the exhaust > (i.e. reducing diameter). This produces a reflected wave of higher > pressure, travelling back towards the engine. > 5. The reflected wave from pt. 2 reaches the engine - this draws the > exhaust mixture from the cylinder, and in extreme cases, even draws some > fuel-air into the exhaust. > 6. The reflected wave from pt4. reaches the engine - this pushes the > fuel-air back into the cylinder just in time for the rising piston to close > the exhaust port off. > > I'm sure that the real world operation of a two-stroke exhaust system has > many many more factors affecting it, and that this is a greatly sanitised > version of reality, but it's a start. > > Stuart Baly. > > Name: WINMAIL.DAT > Part 1.2 Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream) > Encoding: x-uuencode From aaronc at rsacom.com Wed May 19 21:37:56 1999 From: aaronc at rsacom.com (Chew, Aaron) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:37:56 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: I would reply the following. I know I could be wrong, but here's my thinking: I think the coffee cup analogy more closely represents comparing the water temp of car with a radiator and a car without it. Of course, the car with the radiator is cooler. I too have trouble believing that the radiator trick results in cooler temps. Sure the water travels through a longer distance, but it sure travels a lot quicker (less time for heat transfer) if the new water pump flow rate can match the original configuration. -----Original Message----- From: Frederic Breitwieser [mailto:frederic at xephic.dynip.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 3:46 PM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Limited cooling space > The way I see it, the coolant now "sees" a radiator that is 1/3 as high and > 3 times longer. Why does this cool better than normal. The log delta T is > the same, no? Is it a flow turbulence thing? That is the only change I > see. Here would be my guess... If you increase the width of the radiator, the coolant has to move further to reach the other side and be sucked back into the system, therefore its exposed to the ambient (and hopefully cooler) air temperature, which reduces the temperature of the coolant going back in. While my dilbert-cube-mates think I'm insane, I just tried something that you can do that will illustrate the point. Run the hot water on your faucet for a few minutes, until the temperature is constant. Stick a thermometer into a coffee mug, then fill it with hot water. Record temperature. Then, using a second thermometer, or cool off the first one to room temperature, repeat the experiment, however use the hose with the spray gun, which typically has 5-6 feet of hose under it. The temperature in the mug is consistantly 5-6 degrees colder. I did this 3 times to make sure. Longer hose, more distance traveled, more energy (heat) lost or radiated into "space". -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From RRauscher at nni.com Wed May 19 21:39:37 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:39:37 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: Bruce Wrote: >Per several off list letters I checked/doubled checked/thriple checked >grounds and power for this bit of history. > I noted the following, using a 4 wire heated O2 sensor. (General Motors) >With no power to heater, 0.0v. For approximately 30secs 0.0, and then >quickly rose to .1v, then then slowly climbed higher. >When hot, there was a nominal voltage of .28v at the O2 sensor lead wire. >Exposing this sensor to 97% O2 (Medical Grade O2, as tested this am) it >drifted to .030.-.032v. >Exposing this sensor to the Butane from a cigarette lighter that was unlit >immediately responded with a display of .7v...... >Your O2 sensor is a HC Sensor... >Bruce and the staff at CSH, HQ Bruce, I don't know why you say this, if you douse the o2 sensor with butane, you block out the o2, so it will read high, as in a rich fuel mixture. (No o2 present). All of your above sounds correct, and with all respect, the exception of your conclusion... BobR. -- From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 19 21:49:27 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:49:27 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Hermann To: Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Limited cooling space Nope, if you remember the Hino show car the Samurii, back from the late 60s early 70s. The firm I worked for converted it to a Fiat Powerplant. Had a massive overheat problem. Much money was spent on all kinds of radiators, including several very expensive ones. The final "trick" is what i discribed, and it worked. Why, I haven't a clue, just that it did. Whatza Aero-K-Whopper??. Bruce > >Someone the other day mentioned having a very confined area for a radiator. > >I just recalled one way of "helping". > >It involves dividing up the radiator so that the coolant rather than just > >going from side to side has to criss cross the radiator several times. > > This is done by adding several barriers internal to the side tanks. On > >the "cold" side of the radiator a divider plate is installed 2/3 of the way > >down from the top, and on the hot side, a divider is added 1/3 of the way > >down, so the coolant has to travel back and forth 3 times rather than once. > > If your out for the gold, you might have to play with the water pump > >speed, some > >Grumpy > > Grumpy-- > > You been checking out the radiator set-up on some of the late model, aero > nose K-Whoppers? > > Greg > > From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 19 21:54:01 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:54:01 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: > Bruce Wrote: > >Per several off list letters I checked/doubled checked/thriple checked > >grounds and power for this bit of history. > > I noted the following, using a 4 wire heated O2 sensor. (General Motors) > >With no power to heater, 0.0v. For approximately 30secs 0.0, and then > >quickly rose to .1v, then then slowly climbed higher. > >When hot, there was a nominal voltage of .28v at the O2 sensor lead wire. > >Exposing this sensor to 97% O2 (Medical Grade O2, as tested this am) it > >drifted to .030.-.032v. > >Exposing this sensor to the Butane from a cigarette lighter that was unlit > >immediately responded with a display of .7v...... > >Your O2 sensor is a HC Sensor... > >Bruce and the staff at CSH, HQ > Bruce, I don't know why you say this, if you douse the o2 sensor > with butane, you block out the o2, so it will read high, as in a > rich fuel mixture. (No o2 present). > All of your above sounds correct, and with all respect, the > exception of your conclusion... > BobR. Is butane not a Hydro Carbon?. Bruce From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Wed May 19 22:00:34 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:00:34 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: There is many things to consider other than the shape of the radiator. The shape in this case may cause higher flow velocity causing more turbulent flow which will greatly increase heat transfer as opposed to laminar flow. Also this is comparing apples to oranges if the two radiators do not have the exact same construction (tube size, fin bonding, fin surface area etc.). Even the hardness of the materials effects thermal conductivity. Bill Edgeworth From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 19 22:07:28 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:07:28 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: COOL DEAL Fred!, Thanks for the link man! Looks GREAT! Am learnin bunches mang! Can CLEARLY see that I have a LOT to learn... LATER! Todd....!! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Sounds like Fred got one of his from a TURBO SUNBIRD... > > That I did! The 7749's are in several vehicles... check Ludis's > detailed site and you can see. I tried to cut and past but for some > reason Windows blew up. > > http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/p4xref.html#1227749 > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 19 22:07:30 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:07:30 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: Hey Fred, Thanks for the specs on your rail man! ALSO, what's the HWMMV designation in your list a vehicles at the bottom of your posts? Is it a HUMVIE/HUMMER like Arnold Shwarezzeneggerrrr drives? or what? Thanks! Todd....!! ----------- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > What diameter and wall thickness was the tubin ya used? > > I used suspension tubing, which is 3/4" outer diameter tubing, with a > inner diameter suitable for threading 1/2", so its slightly less than > 1/2" internal diameter. Buy, clamp, and tap. Couldn't be any easier > for that part. Welding on blocks to mate with the injector was a > little more complex, but not impossible. TIG weld or use > www.durafix.com. I've found out the hard way that MIG welding > aluminum is set aside for welding gods. > > > Aren't they usually billet rails? or are the billet rails just show > > Billet is pretty. But I can polish my aluminum rod, so no big deal. > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From ord at aei.ca Wed May 19 22:26:54 1999 From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:26:54 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: I have heard exactly the same for an H-Pipe. Paint it, and where the paint has blistered up is where the crossover needs to go. -----Original Message----- From: Todd....!! To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 6:20 PM Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model >The way I was taught to roughly but effectively 'tune' my exhaust system >on my 4 stroke v-8's engine's is to bolt about a 2 or 3 foot pipe to the >header collector paint it black with some spray paint (preferably BEFORE >installing the pipe) then do a run down the strip... > >After runnin the car at WOT for a 1/4, there will be a point on the >'tuning' pipe where the paint has been burned off, and a point further >up towards the header where the paint isn't burnt at all! > >At the point where the paint begins being burnt is where ya cut the >pipe.. Whalaa instantly tuned exhaust... > >I've never heard a technical explanation of why this works or even if it >helps or hurts or is just a guess at the correct length of exhaust >pipe... From ECMnut at aol.com Wed May 19 22:32:13 1999 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:32:13 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Todd, if that 4 banger Stratus gives you a 16 second timeslip, it's much stronger than the 17.50 that R&T got ~ a year ago. Let us know how it turns out. Mike V In a message dated 5/19/99 5:28:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, atc347 at c-com.net writes: > > $160+ per month for gas for the Bee vs. MAX $60/month for gas for the > Stratus... > > If she breaks into the 16's this evenin, I'll be pretty happy! > From garfield at cyberlynk.com Wed May 19 22:36:40 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:36:40 -0400 Subject: EGOR, ION, Trionic Message-ID: On Wed, 19 May 1999 11:34:47 -0400 (EDT), "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" wrote: >is anyone on this list in the vicintity of Charles City VA >I have a source for a bunch of defective Trionic (SAAB) modules > >you would have to go pick them up HEY! I have a ton of these in BOTH early and late variety. $20ea + shipping and their yours, to anyone who wants one. Course they're unpotted. B) Jim Crance got me my first one; and so the first $20 I get will go to his brewski fund. B) The rest I bought in bulk from a Saab dealer looking to build up his own brewskiNpizza fund. [See, alot of the dealers don't get zip for credit when returning them to Saab, after replacement under warrantee, so if they can sell them for a few bucks, they will usually]. And because they're one ENTIRE FRU (field replaceable unit) due to their being completely encapsulated, if ANYTHING goes bad in the Trionic system, the whole thang's gotta be pulled. Anyhoo, after I finished my own snooping investigation, I figured I'd use the parts outta the remainder, cuz the self-healing AC capacitors they use in the HV section ARE kinda pricey new. But after counting my hours of labor to un-entomb them from the potting, I decided instead I'd MUCH rather buy new ones! But if you wanna go a-sleuthing, and try yer had at the chemotherapy, by all means go for it! After all, hard labor builds character. Plus you just might find some interesting surprises under there. B) Gar From clive at problem.tantech.com Wed May 19 22:49:39 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:49:39 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: > > Frederic, > I think you are missing a point. If you divide the radiator > into thirds then the water has to flow three times as fast > in each tube to maintain the flow rate. Therefore the time > the water remains in the radiator is the same in both cases. but the extra turbulence may allow more heat to sescape since it destroys the boundary layer(s) Clive From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 19 22:51:16 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:51:16 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: > Thanks for the specs on your rail man! No problem. People have helped me, I help others, and it all works out in the end. > of your posts? Is it a HUMVIE/HUMMER like Arnold Shwarezzeneggerrrr > drives? or what? Yes, minus the leather, stereo, and original diesel engine. From RRauscher at nni.com Wed May 19 23:37:48 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:37:48 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Bruce (or is that Grumpy?) wrote: >Kinda depends on the WOT pressure drop across the carb., and spring rate of >the vac, advance used. Even with the same no. degrees per amount of vac., >by different spring rates/dia. combinations things could vary. Going from >6-10 start to 20 something at 700rpm, 30 something at WOT (@3,000 rpm), and >40ish at cruise with a OD kinda hard to do thata way (mechanical). Hence >the real beauty of ecm's, IMHO. > Grumpy Bruce is speaking huge amounts of wisdom here, nothing can come close to how an ecm handles spark control. I've installed a '747 ecm and spark control system on a carb'd car, what a difference. Drivability, power, mileage, have all improved. (Yes, I'm still working on the write-up. The cutoff is next week, as I'm going back to school, along with working). Couple of things that mech/vac distrib's aren't/can't do: A 210 point table, based on rpm and manifold vac, that defines the main spark advance value. This in itself blows away any centrif/vac-adv distributor. Startup spark, additional timing added for a short time after the engine is first started. Keeps engine from stalling (choke). Coolant compensation spark, additional timing added/subtracted as a function of engine temp. Hi-way spark, after a set period of time, above a set speed, additional timing added for better mileage. Knock detect and retard, along with testing of the ESC system. PE spark, at WOT, additional fuel is added, and spark is also added to take full advantage. Well, more than a couple, but I hope I can get the idea across. I'm sold on this... BobR. >>| I could be wrong at this, but what I have seen is, ported vacuum is >>dead >>| at idle, because it is above the butterfly....and as throttle is >>increased, >>| vacuum is generated at the "port" and does not go away at full >>| throttle,,,,,great for emissions but terrible for performance,,,,,the same >>| for MPG.... >>| -Carl Summers >>>| You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance can >>>| reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the >>>throttle >>>| is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at >>>| which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under >>>heavy >>>| throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the >>>| engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide >>>| extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further >>>| illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going >>>to >>>| have some serious rethinking to do! >>>| Aaron Willis From dls2867 at hotmail.com Wed May 19 23:49:53 1999 From: dls2867 at hotmail.com (David Sagers) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:49:53 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: What is the purpose of an EGR and why is it used. I'm trying to decide if I should connect the EGR for my street hot rod. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From RRauscher at nni.com Wed May 19 23:50:27 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:50:27 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: >> Bruce Wrote: >> >Per several off list letters I checked/doubled checked/thriple checked >> >grounds and power for this bit of history. >> > I noted the following, using a 4 wire heated O2 sensor. (General >Motors) >> >With no power to heater, 0.0v. For approximately 30secs 0.0, and then >> >quickly rose to .1v, then then slowly climbed higher. >> >When hot, there was a nominal voltage of .28v at the O2 sensor lead wire. >> >Exposing this sensor to 97% O2 (Medical Grade O2, as tested this am) it >> >drifted to .030.-.032v. >> >Exposing this sensor to the Butane from a cigarette lighter that was >unlit >> >immediately responded with a display of .7v...... >> >Your O2 sensor is a HC Sensor... >> >Bruce and the staff at CSH, HQ >> Bruce, I don't know why you say this, if you douse the o2 sensor >> with butane, you block out the o2, so it will read high, as in a >> rich fuel mixture. (No o2 present). >> All of your above sounds correct, and with all respect, the >> exception of your conclusion... >> BobR. >Is butane not a Hydro Carbon?. >Bruce (I'm chuckle'ing to myself), you've a point there. I have to head out to the garage, I have, lets see; propane, argon, acytelene (sp!), I'll see about butane. I have to try some things out here... (as Arnie would say, in that low, deep voice, 'I'll be back'). BobR. -- From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Thu May 20 00:19:13 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:19:13 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: David Sagers wrote: > > What is the purpose of an EGR and why is it used. I'm trying to decide if I > should connect the EGR for my street hot rod. Lots of EGR info in the archives, look there for more. Briefly EGR is "neutral" as far as combustion is concerned. Adding EGR doesn't make the air/fuel mix leaner or richer. It lowers combustion temp (not as much fuel to burn) which helps emissions. It also helps fuel economy by reducing fuel at part throttle conditions. --steve > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From soren at rio.com Thu May 20 00:27:10 1999 From: soren at rio.com (soren) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:27:10 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: >>> Bruce, I don't know why you say this, if you douse the o2 sensor >>> with butane, you block out the o2, so it will read high, as in a >>> rich fuel mixture. (No o2 present). >>> All of your above sounds correct, and with all respect, the >>> exception of your conclusion... >>> BobR. > >>Is butane not a Hydro Carbon?. >>Bruce > >(I'm chuckle'ing to myself), you've a point there. I have >to head out to the garage, I have, lets see; propane, argon, >acytelene (sp!), I'll see about butane. I have to try some >things out here... (as Arnie would say, in that low, deep >voice, 'I'll be back'). So go out, try the argon, and see how it compares to any of the HC gases and the pure O2 that Bruce tried earlier. If the argon/O2 readings are the same, it is a HC sensor. If the argon/HC readings are the same, it is an O2 sensor. Either way, it seems to me as if whichever gas actually produces voltage is the one it is sensing. Soren From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 20 00:56:28 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 20:56:28 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: > >>> Bruce, I don't know why you say this, if you douse the o2 sensor > >>> with butane, you block out the o2, so it will read high, as in a > >>> rich fuel mixture. (No o2 present). > >>> All of your above sounds correct, and with all respect, the > >>> exception of your conclusion... > >>> BobR. > >>Is butane not a Hydro Carbon?. > >>Bruce > >(I'm chuckle'ing to myself), you've a point there. I have > >to head out to the garage, I have, lets see; propane, argon, > >acytelene (sp!), I'll see about butane. I have to try some > >things out here... (as Arnie would say, in that low, deep > >voice, 'I'll be back'). > So go out, try the argon, and see how it compares to any of the HC gases > and the pure O2 that Bruce tried earlier. If the argon/O2 readings are the > same, it is a HC sensor. If the argon/HC readings are the same, it is an O2 > sensor. Either way, it seems to me as if whichever gas actually produces > voltage is the one it is sensing. > Soren That's the whole purpose of my testing. I've read so many versions of reported facts, I'm leery of them all about now. If someone has access to more gases, and can shed more light on this, then either errors in my methodology, will be exposed, or verified. Either way, I/we win. Bruce From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 20 01:10:01 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:10:01 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: > David Sagers wrote: > > What is the purpose of an EGR and why is it used. I'm trying to decide if I > > should connect the EGR for my street hot rod. > Lots of EGR info in the archives, look there for more. > Briefly EGR is "neutral" as far as combustion is concerned. Adding EGR > doesn't make the air/fuel mix leaner or richer. It lowers combustion > temp (not as much fuel to burn) which helps emissions. It also helps > fuel economy by reducing fuel at part throttle conditions. > --steve OK, less heat. Less energy to be recovered. So poorer mileage, and/or performance?. Less pumping losses, but that is a theoretical idea. While some claim that they can run EGR and get better mileage, I at times wonder. I hope to do some testing with some of the digitial fully electronic types, but for the vac., type, I have tested to my satisfaction, that some can open as a result of exhaust Backpressure at High RPM WOT.. Grumpy From RRauscher at nni.com Thu May 20 01:19:29 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:19:29 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: >> Bruce Wrote: >>(Some stuff about o2 sensor response's {rr}) Ok, back from the garage, I think you may be on to something here. I put a realsquash heated Bosch o2 sensor, tip down, clamped to the inside of a small can. With the tip below the rim, and the body above. Covered at rim height with plastic sheet (yes it was melting to the sensor) Hooked up twelve volts to the heater, fluke on the output. Nominal volts: ~-40mv in free air, returned to this after each test by fanning above can with piece of paper. Response's to different gases: propane: rapid and long lasting, > 850mv. R12: light response, quick to return to nominal, ~475mv. acetylene: rapid and long lasted, > 750mv. hold breath, breath through tube into can: no effect... argon: light response, very short lived: ~70mv. contact cleaner: medium response, ~650mv. (tricloroethane + diclorodifluoromethane) (couldn't find any butane) Thinking about this, it makes sense. Once you reach stoich (450mv), how can you go higher? Only if the excess hc takes it there... The argon response, or lack thereof, is interesting. Dog-gon-it Bruce, I think you already knew this (yes, I'm chuckle'ing again, as the wife asks 'how the experiments work out'?) BobR. P.S. the epa paper discussed how the o2 sensor was responding to different gases, but there was something hockey about the experiments they were running, but I can't remember what it was. Maybe has to due with the gases they used not being found in an exhaust stream, like the r12 I tried? Can't remember. Gonna' read those sae papers next. -- From israels at MNSi.Net Thu May 20 01:26:08 1999 From: israels at MNSi.Net (Todd Israels) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:26:08 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: At 04:49 PM 5/19/99 PDT, you wrote: >What is the purpose of an EGR and why is it used. I'm trying to decide if I >should connect the EGR for my street hot rod. > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > From my understanding EGR basicaly takes up space and lowers combustion temperature helping emmisions. I am not sure of the effect on detonation if the engine is prone to this but suspect it is not positive. The other effect is lots of carbon(black gunk) buildup in the intake that tends to cause driveability problems when IAC pasages are pluged. I personaly wouldnt use EGR if I dident need to. Todd Israels From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 20 01:50:44 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:50:44 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: > >> Bruce Wrote: > >>(Some stuff about o2 sensor response's {rr}) > Ok, back from the garage, I think you may be on to something > here. > I put a realsquash heated Bosch o2 sensor, tip down, clamped to > the inside of a small can. With the tip below the rim, and the > body above. Covered at rim height with plastic sheet (yes it > was melting to the sensor) > Hooked up twelve volts to the heater, fluke on the output. > Nominal volts: ~-40mv in free air, returned to this > after each test by fanning above can with piece of paper. > Response's to different gases: > propane: rapid and long lasting, > 850mv. > R12: light response, quick to return to nominal, ~475mv. > acetylene: rapid and long lasted, > 750mv. > hold breath, breath through tube into can: no effect... > argon: light response, very short lived: ~70mv. > contact cleaner: medium response, ~650mv. > (tricloroethane + diclorodifluoromethane) > (couldn't find any butane) > Thinking about this, it makes sense. Once you reach stoich (450mv), > how can you go higher? Only if the excess hc takes it there... > The argon response, or lack thereof, is interesting. > Dog-gon-it Bruce, I think you already knew this (yes, I'm chuckle'ing > again, as the wife asks 'how the experiments work out'?) > BobR. > P.S. the epa paper discussed how the o2 sensor was responding to > different > gases, but there was something hockey about the experiments they were > running, but I can't remember what it was. > Maybe has to due with the gases they used not being found in an exhaust > stream, like the r12 I tried? Can't remember. > Gonna' read those sae papers next. What I'm really getting clear on, is funded research, ie anything EPA, CARB, or anything related to guberment. They fund to get the desired results, which ain't science in my little part of the world. Grumpy From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 20 01:53:06 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:53:06 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: >The way I see it, the coolant now "sees" a radiator that is 1/3 as high and >3 times longer. Why does this cool better than normal. The log delta T is >the same, no? Is it a flow turbulence thing? That is the only change I >see. > >Gary Derian What Kenworth is doing is not what is described below--they mount two or three separate radiators, one in front of the other, and pipe them in series, with the warmest coolant going to the rear one, then to themiddle on, then to the front. This gives a closer approximation to a true counterflow heat exchanger. A true counter flow heat exchanger gives a greater log mean temp. difference, and thus performs better. Greg > > >> >Someone the other day mentioned having a very confined area for a >radiator. >> >I just recalled one way of "helping". >> >It involves dividing up the radiator so that the coolant rather than just >> >going from side to side has to criss cross the radiator several times. >> > This is done by adding several barriers internal to the side tanks. On >> >the "cold" side of the radiator a divider plate is installed 2/3 of the >way >> >down from the top, and on the hot side, a divider is added 1/3 of the way >> >down, so the coolant has to travel back and forth 3 times rather than >once. >> > If your out for the gold, you might have to play with the water pump >> >speed, some >> >Grumpy >> >> Grumpy-- >> >> You been checking out the radiator set-up on some of the late model, aero >> nose K-Whoppers? >> >> Greg >> From claresnyder at home.com Thu May 20 01:54:53 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:54:53 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Israels To: Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 9:32 PM Subject: Re: EGR? > At 04:49 PM 5/19/99 PDT, you wrote: > >What is the purpose of an EGR and why is it used. I'm trying to decide if I > >should connect the EGR for my street hot rod. > > EGR reduces the tendancy to detonate. Connect it, particularly on a Chevy small=block. > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > From my understanding EGR basicaly takes up space and lowers combustion > temperature helping emmisions. I am not sure of the effect on detonation > if the engine is prone to this but suspect it is not positive. The other > effect is lots of carbon(black gunk) buildup in the intake that tends to > cause driveability problems when IAC pasages are pluged. > I personaly wouldnt use EGR if I dident need to. > > Todd Israels > > From jtracer at fea.net Thu May 20 01:58:54 1999 From: jtracer at fea.net (John T. Luyster) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:58:54 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: David, Exhaust Gas Recirculation. The purpose is to reduce emissions by reducing combustion temps. Too high temp would create Nox. Bottom line if you don't have to have this vehicle emssion legal and it is a "off-road" vehicle then leave it off. John L. David Sagers wrote: > What is the purpose of an EGR and why is it used. I'm trying to decide if I > should connect the EGR for my street hot rod. > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From twsharpe at mtco.com Thu May 20 02:02:07 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:02:07 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com wrote: > Hi Todd, > I think it's great you have noticed all the bore/stroke combos for some > of the chevs,,,,,,,,,somehow, someone at chrysler read grumpys or smokeys > book about rod ratio and never learned anything else... Ever notice how the 427 wedge's (Chevy Ford Chry) all sound different than all other engines????same for 440's... Then there's the Hemi... you can sure pick up their song in a crowd. Nuff said From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 20 02:14:09 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:14:09 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: >Frederic Breitwieser wrote: >> >> > The way I see it, the coolant now "sees" a radiator that is 1/3 as high and >> > 3 times longer. Why does this cool better than normal. The log delta T is >> > the same, no? Is it a flow turbulence thing? That is the only change I >> > see. >> >> Here would be my guess... >> >> If you increase the width of the radiator, the coolant has to move >> further to reach the other side and be sucked back into the system, >> therefore its exposed to the ambient (and hopefully cooler) air >> temperature, which reduces the temperature of the coolant going back >> in. > >But, heat lost is proportional to the temperature delta. As the water >passes through this longer radiator you dump less and less heat because >the temp delta is getting closer to zero. Maybe Gary can weigh in here >but I think you want the radiator at the highest possible average >temperature to maximize heat transfer. That situation is achieved by >the "parallel" radiator, not the serial radiator. Only thing you are doing besides increasing the pressure drop across the radiator is increasing the turbulence in the tubes--which can increase the heat transfer coefficient from the fluid to the tubes from a little to a lot, depending on whether the radiator was a good or bad design in the first place. Regards, Greg > > >--steve > >-- >Steve Ravet >steve.ravet at arm.com >Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. >www.arm.com From gderian at oh.verio.com Thu May 20 02:44:24 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:44:24 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Doesn't cutting the collector change the standing waves and therefore the place where you want to cut it. Maybe an iterative process. I have no technical explanation for this either. I don't know why pressure waves would cause the paint to burn. What if you had high temp paint that didn't burn, or low temp paint that burned all over? Do you have to hold a constant rpm? Gary Derian > I have heard exactly the same for an H-Pipe. Paint it, and where the paint > has blistered up is where the crossover needs to go. > > > > >The way I was taught to roughly but effectively 'tune' my exhaust system > >on my 4 stroke v-8's engine's is to bolt about a 2 or 3 foot pipe to the > >header collector paint it black with some spray paint (preferably BEFORE > >installing the pipe) then do a run down the strip... > > > >After runnin the car at WOT for a 1/4, there will be a point on the > >'tuning' pipe where the paint has been burned off, and a point further > >up towards the header where the paint isn't burnt at all! > > > >At the point where the paint begins being burnt is where ya cut the > >pipe.. Whalaa instantly tuned exhaust... > > > >I've never heard a technical explanation of why this works or even if it > >helps or hurts or is just a guess at the correct length of exhaust > >pipe... > From gderian at oh.verio.com Thu May 20 02:44:25 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:44:25 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: Exhaust is an inert gas as far as an engine is concerned. EGR is used to reduce peak combustion chamber temps which limits the formation of NOx. In the bad old days (1970's), EGR was added and ignition timing was retarded. This combo made for badly running engines. Of course back then, it was easy to plug the vacuum line to the EGR, remove any impediments to vacuum advance, and remove a spring from the mechanical advance. Instant power, smoothness and economy. If the ignition timing is advanced when EGR is added, most if not all the economy loss can be recovered. Additionally, the engine now cruises at lower vacuum which improves economy more. Of course, without EGR, that same engine could pull a taller gear which also reduces engine vacuum and improves economy. I would not use EGR in a hot rod unless you are using a fuel injected engine which already has a good EGR setup. In that case, removing the EGR and recalibrating everything is a lot of work for little benefit (opinion here, no data). Although I did have an Eagle Talon with the turbo engine. I plugged the EGR valve and improved the economy from 23 to 25 mpg. I tried it in my wife's Volvo and only managed to set the check engine light. Gary Derian Dave Sagers wrote: > What is the purpose of an EGR and why is it used. I'm trying to decide if I > should connect the EGR for my street hot rod. > From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Thu May 20 02:57:07 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:57:07 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: On Wed, 19 May 1999, Tom Sharpe wrote: > Ever notice how the 427 wedge's (Chevy Ford Chry) all sound different than all > other engines????same for 440's... Then there's the Hemi... you can sure pick up > their song in a crowd. Nuff said > In the latest Automobile Quarterly there is an article which mentions dyno development at Mopar on the 426. Apparently the dyno engines headers dumped into a high stack, no mufflers. They said the whole area knew when they were playing with them, especially when they were packed tight. They even mention some of the early engines, both developmental and production. First I have seen about the A16, a 6 cylinder development engine, and also a "330 inch" v8 [A182] developmental engine which ran in 1948. Heck, they even mention the 2220 although not too accurately. From shannen at grolen.com Thu May 20 03:04:28 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:04:28 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Todd....!! wrote: > > So Shannen, > > do ya think I could get away with the 2 sizes bigger since I'm at or > below sea level? I'm not about to guess. You're there, I'm here, and it's your car. I was relating what I did. > > What size exactly IS two sizes bigger than what ya had(What are your > current jets in the carb right now?) Read the number off your primary jets, add two, gets ya two sizes bigger. No way in the world you should use my jet size as a starting point for your car. I've spent lotsa hours learning to tune carbs. Won't try to relate it all in 2-8 kb messages. But you've got a good idea what a carb that's too lean runs like, and prolly too rich also. So work with that as a starting point. Shannen > > Thanks! > > Todd....!! > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > Todd....!! wrote: > > > > > > I have a 72 Buick 455 in my 72 Jaguar, but the carb that was on it was > > > jetted for Cheyenne, Wyoming, I already messed up my first 455 that I > > > put in the Jag due to this carbs' pretetonation causing lean > > > condition... broke a couple of peices of ring crowns off the top of a > > > couple a the pistons.... Damage was already done long before I swapped > > > out the carb for a sea level configured rochester... > > > > Well, I don't believe Cheyenne is too much higher than Hardin, MT. > > Before I left Hardin, I swapped the primary jets for jets that were 2 > > sizes larger. Once I arrived here (900 ft above sea level) I had to > > retard the timing slightly. The car is slightly rich now, but I don't > > use it much so I haven't finished the tuning. This is a 455 buick, > > 3.08 rear gear, 18mpg on the highway. > > Shannen From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 20 03:32:37 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:32:37 -0400 Subject: Variable Restrictiveness Exhaust - Meet Mr Helmholz Message-ID: > This talk of fancy tuning is interesting and certainly improves the power > per displacement but my question is does all this work actually make a > better vehicle. Isn't it easier to just use a larger engine with > appropriate gearing to achieve the same power and economy without all the > extra parts? Too a certain degree, no. BUT, depending on how fussy you are about drivability, YES. Depending on where your starting the gains may be small. OR, so stagering you'll be speachless. I have started at ground zero, and done a total calibration, and I don't think any one less than the 400 chips I burnt was a waste of time for what the end result was. I could not come up with a combination of driving style where the engine was less than 100%. Trailing throttle to WOT braking, cornering sudden steering loads low speed, nothing was lacking at any time. So for me it was worth it, your results may vary. Bruce From shannen at grolen.com Thu May 20 06:01:03 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 02:01:03 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: soren wrote: > > >>> Bruce, I don't know why you say this, if you douse the o2 sensor > >>> with butane, you block out the o2, so it will read high, as in a > >>> rich fuel mixture. (No o2 present). > >>> All of your above sounds correct, and with all respect, the > >>> exception of your conclusion... > >>> BobR. > > > >>Is butane not a Hydro Carbon?. > >>Bruce > > > >(I'm chuckle'ing to myself), you've a point there. I have > >to head out to the garage, I have, lets see; propane, argon, > >acytelene (sp!), I'll see about butane. I have to try some > >things out here... (as Arnie would say, in that low, deep > >voice, 'I'll be back'). > > So go out, try the argon, and see how it compares to any of the HC gases > and the pure O2 that Bruce tried earlier. If the argon/O2 readings are the > same, it is a HC sensor. If the argon/HC readings are the same, it is an O2 > sensor. Either way, it seems to me as if whichever gas actually produces > voltage is the one it is sensing. > > Soren No, because exhaust is mixed gasses. Varying the amounts of HC, CO, CO2, and NOx don't affect the sensor. Only O2 quantity in relation to the sensor's reference changes voltage. TPS senses TP whether output voltage increases or decreases with increased throttle angle. Why do you think an "inverted" output from the O2 sensor makes it a Not O2 sensor? Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Thu May 20 06:13:28 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 02:13:28 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: rr wrote: > > >> Bruce Wrote: > > >>(Some stuff about o2 sensor response's {rr}) > > Ok, back from the garage, I think you may be on to something > here. > > I put a realsquash heated Bosch o2 sensor, tip down, clamped to > the inside of a small can. With the tip below the rim, and the > body above. Covered at rim height with plastic sheet (yes it > was melting to the sensor) > > Hooked up twelve volts to the heater, fluke on the output. > > Nominal volts: ~-40mv in free air, returned to this > after each test by fanning above can with piece of paper. > > > Response's to different gases: > > propane: rapid and long lasting, > 850mv. > R12: light response, quick to return to nominal, ~475mv. > acetylene: rapid and long lasted, > 750mv. > hold breath, breath through tube into can: no effect... > argon: light response, very short lived: ~70mv. > contact cleaner: medium response, ~650mv. > (tricloroethane + diclorodifluoromethane) > > (couldn't find any butane) > > Thinking about this, it makes sense. Once you reach stoich (450mv), > how can you go higher? Only if the excess hc takes it there... > > The argon response, or lack thereof, is interesting. You didn't report on the duration of the gas "shot". Not sure it matters, but I would have left whatever gas "running" for a fixed amount of time in the can. Or better yet, continously until end of test. Methinks I may have been motivated enough to do my own experiments. Shannen From hobiegary at earthlink.net Thu May 20 06:52:36 1999 From: hobiegary at earthlink.net (GARY) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 02:52:36 -0400 Subject: My Subaru's Knock Sensor Message-ID: Well Gentlemen, I want to thank you for all your input and ideas before I check out of the group. I have been overwhelmed in trying to keep up to all the email the list provides. But it certainly has been an educational experience and a pleasure too! As for now, I am working with various derivatives of a voltage divider to attenuate the KS signal, one including a potentiometer. I am making progress and will certainly sign back onto the group to let you all know how I end up settling on this over sensitive knock sensor thing. (I'll be back) So good-bye for now and thanks again for the camaraderie!! Sincerely Yours, GARY http://home.earthlink.net/~hobiegary/hesitation.htm From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Thu May 20 08:14:50 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 04:14:50 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: At 05:49 PM 5/19/99 -0400, you wrote: The final "trick" is what i >discribed, and it worked. Why, I haven't a clue, just that it did. > Whatza Aero-K-Whopper??. >Bruce Damn, wish I'd been following this thread. Always seem to miss the tricks that save the day... I reckon he means aerodynamic (slope-nose) Kenworth semi. Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From geoffsue at one.net.au Thu May 20 09:50:33 1999 From: geoffsue at one.net.au (Geffro) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 05:50:33 -0400 Subject: More Lists Message-ID: Hi folks Would anyone have more mailing lists to recommend? While I enjoy this list about 98% of this I dont understand and I am looking for something still to do with engine management systems but maybe closer related to the repair of these systems rather than reprogramming Cheers Geoff From ECMnut at aol.com Thu May 20 10:55:13 1999 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 06:55:13 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: My friend has raced NHRA SuperStock since it was born in the 60's, and he told me that if his big block chebbie didn't have at least two car lengths on a Hemi at half track, the race was lost by the time they reached the finish line. The Hemi's top end charge put the other V8s to shame. Mike V In a message dated 5/19/99 10:59:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimd at vcc.bc.ca writes: > > Ever notice how the 427 wedge's (Chevy Ford Chry) all sound different than > all > > other engines????same for 440's... Then there's the Hemi... you can sure > pick up > > their song in a crowd. Nuff said > > > In the latest Automobile Quarterly there is an article which mentions dyno > development at Mopar on the 426. Apparently the dyno engines headers > dumped into a high stack, no mufflers. They said the whole area knew > when they were playing with them, especially when they were packed > tight. They even mention some of the early engines, both developmental and > production. First I have seen about the A16, a 6 cylinder development > engine, and also a "330 inch" v8 [A182] developmental engine which ran in > 1948. Heck, they even mention the 2220 although not too accurately. > From garfield at cyberlynk.com Thu May 20 12:52:25 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:52:25 -0400 Subject: EGOR, ION, Trionic Message-ID: On Wed, 19 May 1999 15:39:01 -0700, garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) wrote: >HEY! I have a ton of these in BOTH early and late variety. $20ea + >shipping and their yours, to anyone who wants one. Course they're >unpotted. B) GEEZ, what have I done to myself!! NO NO NO, I didn't mean to type "unpotted". They ARE still in their original POTTED state. Golly, my apologies for totally munging that one. Dang. That's of course why later on in the original post, I mentioned trying your unpotting skills and the chemicals, an all that. Argh. Garputz From jwallace at nist.gov Thu May 20 13:53:43 1999 From: jwallace at nist.gov (Jay Wallace) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:53:43 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: At 02:03 AM 5/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >rr wrote: >> >> >> Bruce Wrote: snip... >> Response's to different gases: >> >> propane: rapid and long lasting, > 850mv. >> R12: light response, quick to return to nominal, ~475mv. >> acetylene: rapid and long lasted, > 750mv. >> hold breath, breath through tube into can: no effect... >> argon: light response, very short lived: ~70mv. >> contact cleaner: medium response, ~650mv. >> (tricloroethane + diclorodifluoromethane) >> >> (couldn't find any butane) >> >> Thinking about this, it makes sense. Once you reach stoich (450mv), >> how can you go higher? Only if the excess hc takes it there... >> >> The argon response, or lack thereof, is interesting. >You didn't report on the duration of the gas "shot". Not sure it >matters, but I would have left whatever gas "running" for a fixed >amount of time in the can. Or better yet, continously until end of >test. Methinks I may have been motivated enough to do my own >experiments. >Shannen I wouldn't be surprised if Shannen is on the right track here: Ar is heavier (denser) than air so it would sink to the bottom of whatever container that it is flowing into. You would need to flow long enough to displace all of the air before the tip of the sensor was surrounded by Ar. One more thing that should be emphasized: a standard oxygen sensor is just an electrochemical cell with the output voltage proportional to the difference in oxygen concentration between the inside and outside (for a constant temperature) as long as the zirconia is hot enough to conduct. The output voltage is given by the Nernst equation. I _think_ that all of the experimental observations are consistent with this. Jay From clarencewood at centuryinter.net Thu May 20 14:30:55 1999 From: clarencewood at centuryinter.net (Clarence Wood) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:30:55 -0400 Subject: Limited cooling space Message-ID: I used the same technique on my intercooler (1982 Nissan 280ZX turbo). I forced the air to travel across the top and then back across the bottom by putting a baffle in the inlet tank and also moving the outlet tube to the inlet tank past the baffle. The original design had the inlet at the top on one side and the outlet at the top on the other side. I was told that because of the air force that would be generated the original design was better; I just could not 'see' the air being cooled. I have ran several tests and the cooling aspect is very, very good; I am running the boost at 12psi and have no serious turbo lag or any other breathing problem. At 03:45 PM 5/19/99 -0400, you wrote: >> The way I see it, the coolant now "sees" a radiator that is 1/3 as high and >> 3 times longer. Why does this cool better than normal. The log delta T is >> the same, no? Is it a flow turbulence thing? That is the only change I >> see. > >Here would be my guess... > >If you increase the width of the radiator, the coolant has to move >further to reach the other side and be sucked back into the system, >therefore its exposed to the ambient (and hopefully cooler) air >temperature, which reduces the temperature of the coolant going back >in. > >While my dilbert-cube-mates think I'm insane, I just tried something >that you can do that will illustrate the point. > >Run the hot water on your faucet for a few minutes, until the >temperature is constant. Stick a thermometer into a coffee mug, then >fill it with hot water. Record temperature. > >Then, using a second thermometer, or cool off the first one to room >temperature, repeat the experiment, however use the hose with the >spray gun, which typically has 5-6 feet of hose under it. The >temperature in the mug is consistantly 5-6 degrees colder. I did this >3 times to make sure. > >Longer hose, more distance traveled, more energy (heat) lost or >radiated into "space". > >-- > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport CT 06606 > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy >1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos >2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) > > IZCC #3426 1982 280ZX Turbo GL 1966 El Camino 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ-1101J Motorcycle 1975 Honda CB750 SS (black engine) 1986 Snapper Comet lawn mower Clarence Wood Software&Such... clarencewood at centuryinter.net Savannah, TN. From soren at rio.com Thu May 20 15:03:05 1999 From: soren at rio.com (soren) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:03:05 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: Varying the amounts of HC, CO, >CO2, and NOx don't affect the sensor. Only O2 quantity in relation to >the sensor's reference changes voltage. TPS senses TP whether output >voltage increases or decreases with increased throttle angle. Why do >you think an "inverted" output from the O2 sensor makes it a Not O2 >sensor? A TPS has a supply voltage that can be modulated in either increasing or decreasing fashion with increasing throttle angle, but the O2 sensor has to make its own voltage. My simple logic led me to the conclusion that the compound that is being actually being sensed must be the one that provides this positive voltage. Then I remembered that the O2 sensor is actually a differential sensor, like you said: it provides voltage based on the differential between the outside reference air and the gases in the exhaust. So my new hypothesis is that the sensor is sensing O2, but it actually produces voltage from the reference oxygen; when it is compared to an oxygen-poor environment in an exhaust stream, there is a voltage differential across the ion-sensing electrodes, and the voltage produced at the reference side goes up the signal wire. When the O2 is even on both sides, no voltage is produced. Of course, this would only apply to the zirconium type O2 sensors, the titanium dioxide ones do actually use a reference voltage and act as a variable resistor. So now what I want to see is someone test a sensor using sealed chambers for both reference and exhaust sides, using O2, HCs, an inert gas such as argon, and another gas containing negative ions (maybe one of the halogens) as a control. :-p Soren From rap at aci.net Thu May 20 17:35:01 1999 From: rap at aci.net (..) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:35:01 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Well, I raced SuperStock in the 60's, and during 1964-1966 used the Plymouth 2 door bodys and a 426 wedge (1964) -13:1 cr version - and then 426 Hemi's in the same body shell (1965/1966). With the Torqueflite transmissions supplied by Chrysler it was next to impossible for a Chev or Ford to get even a half a car length out of the hole (unless the Mopar driver was asleep at the wheel) much less get ahead down the track. This changed during the latter part of 1965 when the "funny cars" (altered wheel bases) became common - then it depended on how much the cg was shifted rather then primarily on useable horsepower. The factory wedges and hemi's were very well prepped before you got them - all you basically could do was jet them for the conditions at the track for that day. Any nitwit (looking back I probably fell easily into that category) that could come up with $3400 (in 1964 - a bit more later) and who's dealer would swear that the customer was an active drag racer (previously I was sponsored by a Ford Dealer and ran a '62 427 Ford) could get one of these packages. And these WERE complete packages (engines offset to the right, large heavy batteries in the trunk for traction, dana 60 rear ends, no dum-dum sealer for weight reduction, lightweight upholstery, aluminum front ends, etc) They even had a number of yellow warning labels in and about the car stating the car was meant for racing application only and not for sale for street/highways -words to that effect. Running against another Mopar user was only a test of your tuning ability and reaction time as the cars were unbelievably identical (Dodge or Plymouth). Break something (popping a valve through a piston, although very infrequent, did happen) your dealer then called a number at Chrysler and a new long block would appear by magic around mid-week so you were ready for the next weekend. My own "driver" was a 427 vette at the time so it wasn't a case of being a die-hard Chrysler fan - it was only a case of being practical (sponsor money was necessary even back then!!!). I vividly remember a slogan at the time: "Want something with a belt in the back (referring to clothing) then buy a ______ (fill in the blank - Dodge/Plymouth)" as no matter how many times you went down the track you were NEVER ready for those 2-3 shifts, they'd snap your head EVERY single time. rap ECMnut at aol.com wrote: > My friend has raced NHRA SuperStock since it was born in the 60's, > and he told me that if his big block chebbie didn't have at least two > car lengths on a Hemi at half track, the race was lost by the time they > reached the finish line. The Hemi's top end charge put the other V8s > to shame. > Mike V > > In a message dated 5/19/99 10:59:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimd at vcc.bc.ca > writes: > > > > Ever notice how the 427 wedge's (Chevy Ford Chry) all sound different > than > > all > > > other engines????same for 440's... Then there's the Hemi... you can > sure > > pick up > > > their song in a crowd. Nuff said > > > > > In the latest Automobile Quarterly there is an article which mentions dyno > > development at Mopar on the 426. Apparently the dyno engines headers > > dumped into a high stack, no mufflers. They said the whole area knew > > when they were playing with them, especially when they were packed > > tight. They even mention some of the early engines, both developmental and > > production. First I have seen about the A16, a 6 cylinder development > > engine, and also a "330 inch" v8 [A182] developmental engine which ran in > > 1948. Heck, they even mention the 2220 although not too accurately. > > From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 20 17:52:52 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:52:52 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Never heard that one, will check with some other buds and see if this is a true tuning trick! Sounds logical to me... Now then, where'd I put that Helmholz model so I can test this theory, lol... BTW, since we're on the subject of exhaust and tunin it, have any of you's heard of a crossover BOX? I believe I heard a Stang with one, it sounded TOTALLY FUTURISTIC!! I've NEVER heard a car sound like that... It sounded like a car would sound if it were on TV in the year 2030 or so... I wanna try n make my Bee sound that wired, that is, if it's efficient n all... Thanks again for the tidbit about the crossover tunin! Todd....!! ------------- Ord Millar wrote: > > I have heard exactly the same for an H-Pipe. Paint it, and where the paint > has blistered up is where the crossover needs to go. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Todd....!! > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 6:20 PM > Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model > > >The way I was taught to roughly but effectively 'tune' my exhaust system > >on my 4 stroke v-8's engine's is to bolt about a 2 or 3 foot pipe to the > >header collector paint it black with some spray paint (preferably BEFORE > >installing the pipe) then do a run down the strip... > > > >After runnin the car at WOT for a 1/4, there will be a point on the > >'tuning' pipe where the paint has been burned off, and a point further > >up towards the header where the paint isn't burnt at all! > > > >At the point where the paint begins being burnt is where ya cut the > >pipe.. Whalaa instantly tuned exhaust... > > > >I've never heard a technical explanation of why this works or even if it > >helps or hurts or is just a guess at the correct length of exhaust > >pipe... From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 20 17:52:55 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:52:55 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Will do ECMnut!, However, I didn't make it to the track last night for Test-n-Tune night, so will have to go to the heads up races on Fri evening!! Will red light BIG time in order to try n get at least a FAKE win over some stangies n birdies.... Will remove the airbox restriction, lower front tire pressure a bit remove spare, install NOS's new OFF-ROAD octane booster(Raises octane by 7 points!) The thing stalls at OVER 2,600 rpm! Thanks for the reference on the OEM E.T.'s... was gonna look that up, and forgot! Thanks for savin me the time! I'll try n find a REALLY light person to run er down the track, every 100 lbs. is supposed to be .1 in the quarter, so IF the R&T had a 300 lb driver I may have a chance at 16's with a 100 lb driver, ya think? What else can I do... If I hit 85 mph, the engine will cut do to some sorta MPH limiter in the computer! It REALLY sucks I tell ya! ALSO, if this engine EVER breaks, It'll probably end up gettin some sorta V8 (360, 440, 426 hemi) crate engine from Mopar!! That will be a cool day... Tubs will accomodate the V8 as well... I can dream can't I.... plus the LAW is that the engine in the car must be at least as new as the car itself, so as ong as I install a crate engine which is at least a 97 or newer engine, I'm within the law!! COOL?!?!!?? LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm ECMnut at aol.com wrote: > > Todd, > if that 4 banger Stratus gives you a 16 second timeslip, it's > much stronger than the 17.50 that R&T got ~ a year ago. > Let us know how it turns out. > Mike V > > In a message dated 5/19/99 5:28:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, atc347 at c-com.net > writes: > > > > > $160+ per month for gas for the Bee vs. MAX $60/month for gas for the > > Stratus... > > > > If she breaks into the 16's this evenin, I'll be pretty happy! > > From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 20 17:52:58 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:52:58 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: OK FRED!, WHERE'd ya pick up a hummer at? The local army resale shop? KU-WAIT, Saudi? Where? D'ya get a good deal? I want one? What engine is in the hummer again? I can't remember what ya said? 440? That's SOOOO COOL! Do ya have any pics of it on the web? If so, what's the web add...? LATER! Todd....!! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Thanks for the specs on your rail man! > > No problem. People have helped me, I help others, and it all works out > in the end. > > > of your posts? Is it a HUMVIE/HUMMER like Arnold Shwarezzeneggerrrr > > drives? or what? > > Yes, minus the leather, stereo, and original diesel engine. From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 20 17:53:11 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:53:11 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: I've never actually RACED a HEMI(Drove it on the track) but my buddy cruises all over Houston in his 68 Race Hemi Cuda, I believe it's one of the 50 made... He's rich and owns a LOT of Hemi and 440 6-pak cars... Anyhoo.. I believe ya, the Hemi heads really flow alot, even in stock form, add that to the shape of the combustion chamber and where the spark plug(s) are located within the cylinder and you have one power packin pachyderm! A guy in another forum that I frequent VERY often is in the process of purchasing a flow bench from a guy that's goin outa business, maybe he'll do some flow testin of some hemi stuff... I know the Hemi has been flow tested to DEATH, but this guy has REALLY unique ideas and the money to follow up with researchin those ideas, ya know! right now matter of fact he's usin 427 Ford pistons in a 383 Mopar block with I dunno WHAT kinda crank to build some sorta trick engine, he's writing up an article about the build, takin all the pics of the build and hopes to get the thang published in some mag, pretty cool, ey? LATER! Todd.... ------------ ECMnut at aol.com wrote: > > My friend has raced NHRA SuperStock since it was born in the 60's, > and he told me that if his big block chebbie didn't have at least two > car lengths on a Hemi at half track, the race was lost by the time they > reached the finish line. The Hemi's top end charge put the other V8s > to shame. > Mike V > > In a message dated 5/19/99 10:59:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimd at vcc.bc.ca > writes: > > > > Ever notice how the 427 wedge's (Chevy Ford Chry) all sound different > than > > all > > > other engines????same for 440's... Then there's the Hemi... you can > sure > > pick up > > > their song in a crowd. Nuff said > > > > > In the latest Automobile Quarterly there is an article which mentions dyno > > development at Mopar on the 426. Apparently the dyno engines headers > > dumped into a high stack, no mufflers. They said the whole area knew > > when they were playing with them, especially when they were packed > > tight. They even mention some of the early engines, both developmental and > > production. First I have seen about the A16, a 6 cylinder development > > engine, and also a "330 inch" v8 [A182] developmental engine which ran in > > 1948. Heck, they even mention the 2220 although not too accurately. > > From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 20 17:53:12 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:53:12 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Gary, All good questions, don't really know the answer, may try the high temp paint deal when at the track next time and let ya know what happens between usin the high temp vs the regular Krylon type spray paint.. As for rpm's, ya just paint the tube bolt it on, go thru the 1/4, check the tube for where it's burnt, maybe try it a couple different times...just to be sure, then cut the tube... The rpm's aren't held constant unless you have some sorta newfangled clutch setup like the top fuelers have that hold their rpm's at PEAK power the whole run! THAT would be nice!! The throttle position IS held constant however, at WOT, that is.... LATER....!! Todd....!! Gary Derian wrote: > > Doesn't cutting the collector change the standing waves and therefore the > place where you want to cut it. Maybe an iterative process. I have no > technical explanation for this either. I don't know why pressure waves > would cause the paint to burn. What if you had high temp paint that didn't > burn, or low temp paint that burned all over? Do you have to hold a > constant rpm? > > Gary Derian > > > I have heard exactly the same for an H-Pipe. Paint it, and where the > paint > > has blistered up is where the crossover needs to go. > > > > > > > > >The way I was taught to roughly but effectively 'tune' my exhaust system > > >on my 4 stroke v-8's engine's is to bolt about a 2 or 3 foot pipe to the > > >header collector paint it black with some spray paint (preferably BEFORE > > >installing the pipe) then do a run down the strip... > > > > > >After runnin the car at WOT for a 1/4, there will be a point on the > > >'tuning' pipe where the paint has been burned off, and a point further > > >up towards the header where the paint isn't burnt at all! > > > > > >At the point where the paint begins being burnt is where ya cut the > > >pipe.. Whalaa instantly tuned exhaust... > > > > > >I've never heard a technical explanation of why this works or even if it > > >helps or hurts or is just a guess at the correct length of exhaust > > >pipe... > > From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 20 17:53:15 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:53:15 -0400 Subject: VE tables Message-ID: Thanks for the additional info David, it's a TAD bit over my head however, I have NO experience in ANY of this except floorin the car and hopin it GOES! If it doesn't then it's either the points went bad(wore out) or the coil went out, or I'm outa gas, or the carb's floats are stickin or somethin simple like that... NO computerized equipment on my Superbee til this past two months, I FINALLY threw the ECU and electronic distributor in the engine(It had been floatin around the back seat for several months..) Left the points distributor in the trunk 'just in case'.... LATER! Todd....!! P.S. - I was thinkin of throwin an O2 sensor in the Bee's exhaust system, maybe one on eash cyl, how much heat can these babies take before failure? and what are the differing voltages for different air/fuel ratios? I plan to merely hook up either some sorta diode bar graph monitors to the snesors or even merely a voltmeter.... maybe with an a/b switch to monitor different cylinders wiht the same gauge??? Any help here fella's? Thanks again! LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm David A. Cooley wrote: > > > > > Is your goal in reducing teh amount of fuel to find that fine line > > between extra fuel cooling teh conbustion vs. loadin up the cylinder > > with extra fuel? or what? Just wonderinnnnnnnn........ > > Just trying to tune for max performance... Superchips bumped the VE from > 85-90% to 100-105% through most of the upper RPM ranges... Mileage dropped > and setting PE VS RPM to 0% (from 10%) still has O2 voltages at ~900mv at > WOT. I had to go to about -15% before it dropped to the 800-850mv range... > Stock, the chip was too rich at WOT, now it's bunches richer. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Thu May 20 18:11:56 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:11:56 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: > However, I didn't make it to the track last night for Test-n-Tune night, > so will have to go to the heads up races on Fri evening!! Will red > light BIG time in order to try n get at least a FAKE win over some > stangies n birdies.... > > Will remove the airbox restriction, lower front tire pressure a bit > remove spare, install NOS's new OFF-ROAD octane booster(Raises octane by > 7 points!) Octane boost is a waste of money. When they claim 7 points they mean it raises 92 to 92.7 Most all octane boosters out there also use MMT which coats plugs, oxygen sensors, catalytic converters etc and does no good. From aron at inbrapenet.com.br Thu May 20 18:11:59 1999 From: aron at inbrapenet.com.br (Aron Lopes Petrucci) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:11:59 -0400 Subject: Opel Omega Diagnostic Conector Message-ID: Hi, I am "listening" this list for some time, since I bought EFI cars. I have two EFI cars, they are made in Brazil, by Chevrolet, following the original design by Opel (Germany) (with some litle changes, maybe). They are an Omega Sedan (1994) 2.0, and a Corsa (1998) 1.0. How I always make the services, only in my cars, by myself. I'm searching for technical information about it (in portuguese, english, french, spanish or italian; I don't understand anything in german). Specially about their EFI systems (Bosch Motronic, I think) and the diagnostic conector. I am thinking about an interface to PC. I found a conector in the Omega, wich I think that is the diagnostic conector, but it doesn't looks like an ALDL conector, in fact, I'm not sure if that conector with 10 pins (2 lines of five pins), positioned in the engine compartment, in a cable comming from the main cable of the EFI system, is the diagnostic conector. So, my questions are; if there are anybody in the world who can answer this. 1) where are the diagnostic conectors, in these two cars? 2) what are their pin functions? 3) what are the codes and the protocol to "talk" with the ECM? Thanx in advance Aron L. Petrucci aron at inbrapenet.com.br Londrina - Pr Brazil. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Thu May 20 18:36:08 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:36:08 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: > WHERE'd ya pick up a hummer at? At a government auction near Los Angelos more or less. Bought two frame rails, a fender, the basic body shell, cut up, for $700 as scrap. Put it on a pallet, then sent it by rail to Philadelphia where I went down from newburgh NY with a 25' flatbed to pick up the pallet. > What engine is in the hummer again? I can't remember what ya said? 500 cid Caddy out of a 70 or 71 eldorado. Don't remember the year. > That's SOOOO COOL! Do ya have any pics of it on the web? Yep... but my firewall is finicky, so you can't see 'em at the moment. http://www.xephic.dynip.com/swamprat/index.html. When the firewall is fixed, you can check it out. I just never get to it. mail works :) -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Thu May 20 18:36:13 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:36:13 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > Anyhoo.. I believe ya, the Hemi heads really flow alot, even in stock > form, add that to the shape of the combustion chamber and where the They also look cool and sound cool. However, they suck gas. Good candidate for EFI :) -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From pford at qnx.com Thu May 20 18:59:51 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:59:51 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: I was thinking ( rare but it does happen) when a standing wave is set up the exhaust would be moving slowwer (higher pressure). where the standing wave was there would be more of a heat buildup due to a slightly longer time in contact with the pipe. the standing wave would be related to the Helmholz model ( the wave could be caused by resonanse(sp?) so tying the two hotspots on the two collectors should help? by transffering the presure peaks between the 2 does that make any sense? I don't know how it works the the local engine guru in Kingston swears by it. Previously, you (Todd....!!) wrote: > Never heard that one, will check with some other buds and see if this is > a true tuning trick! > > Sounds logical to me... Now then, where'd I put that Helmholz model so I > can test this theory, lol... > > BTW, since we're on the subject of exhaust and tunin it, have any of > you's heard of a crossover BOX? I believe I heard a Stang with one, it > sounded TOTALLY FUTURISTIC!! I've NEVER heard a car sound like that... > > It sounded like a car would sound if it were on TV in the year 2030 or > so... > > I wanna try n make my Bee sound that wired, that is, if it's efficient n > all... > > Thanks again for the tidbit about the crossover tunin! > > Todd....!! > ------------- > > Ord Millar wrote: > > > > I have heard exactly the same for an H-Pipe. Paint it, and where the paint > > has blistered up is where the crossover needs to go. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Todd....!! > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 6:20 PM > > Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model > > > > >The way I was taught to roughly but effectively 'tune' my exhaust system > > >on my 4 stroke v-8's engine's is to bolt about a 2 or 3 foot pipe to the > > >header collector paint it black with some spray paint (preferably BEFORE > > >installing the pipe) then do a run down the strip... > > > > > >After runnin the car at WOT for a 1/4, there will be a point on the > > >'tuning' pipe where the paint has been burned off, and a point further > > >up towards the header where the paint isn't burnt at all! > > > > > >At the point where the paint begins being burnt is where ya cut the > > >pipe.. Whalaa instantly tuned exhaust... > > > > > >I've never heard a technical explanation of why this works or even if it > > >helps or hurts or is just a guess at the correct length of exhaust > > >pipe... > > -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 20 20:36:47 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:36:47 -0400 Subject: New Person Message-ID: Cool Jason, That's about all I'm doin in here as well! Watchin, learnin, brain tends to emit a LOT of smoke from readin some of these posts, It's like some sorta alien techno-wizardry is goin on in some sorta alien world or somethin, know what I mean??? LATER! Todd....!! SPECTRO COATING CORP. wrote: > > Hi - My name is Jason & I recently started subscibing to this list. > > I'm sure I will learn something here as my efi knowledge drops off a cliff > at the ECU connector.(going in - not out ;) > > My current projects are a V8 AWD S10 Blazer & an 8V-71 supercharged & > injected 440 Chrysler (on the engine stand). > > I'll hang out & watch for awhile. > > Thanks - J From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 20 21:04:04 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:04:04 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: I understand what you're saying David, however, I have personal first hand experience on the benificial attributes of octane booster, 104+ to be exact... I took my 1972 Jaguar XJ455 to the test-n-tune night at the dragstrip quite a while back, it was the first time this car had been to the track with the 455 Buick engine in it... I ran a few runs doing various sorts of burnouts in order to get enough traction to make a pretty consistent and best E.T. of 14.6 at 89 mph. I THEN proceeded to put the 104+ octane booster in the tank shich already had 93 octane super unleaded in it, no other changes were made.... I then proceeded to not EVER gain traction for the rest of the night, about 5 runs in all with the octane boost in the tank, E.T. NEVER even dropped to mid 14's again! Due to wheel spin.... ALSO, I had a Rochester off of a 1970 Chev 350 truck on it as well as NO O2 sensors or any other sensors on that engine nor were there any Cats... It DOES have some QUITE puny lil 1 3/4 exhasut that came on the Jag from the factory for the straight 6 cylinders dual exhaust system. The oringinal 455's exhaust was 2.25 inch, I had to adapt it down in order to work with the already existing full dual exhaust on the Jag... I DID have spark plugs, but to this day I STILL have the same plugs in the thing.... No probs yet.. I DID install HEI between those runs and now, the car runs a LOT better with the HEI than it did with the points, I'm SURE that the HEI helped in saving the plugs from an earlier demise than the points ignition would've... ey? This IS first hand experience that I experienced with my VERY own eyes... ALSO, the 72 Buick engine probably had higher compression than most of the tiny/powerless engine's of today... I DID say 'MOST', not ALL, but 510 ft lbs. is QUITE a chunk of torque for ANY engine from the factory... Will post a couple of the slips from that night as soon as I find em.... Can't remember what the 60 or 660 ft times were, we'll see.... LATER! Todd....!! David A. Cooley wrote: > > > However, I didn't make it to the track last night for Test-n-Tune night, > > so will have to go to the heads up races on Fri evening!! Will red > > light BIG time in order to try n get at least a FAKE win over some > > stangies n birdies.... > > > > Will remove the airbox restriction, lower front tire pressure a bit > > remove spare, install NOS's new OFF-ROAD octane booster(Raises octane by > > 7 points!) > > Octane boost is a waste of money. When they claim 7 points they mean it > raises 92 to 92.7 > Most all octane boosters out there also use MMT which coats plugs, oxygen > sensors, catalytic converters etc and does no good. From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 20 21:04:07 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:04:07 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: OK Fred, HOW in the world didi ya find out when and where this auction was going to be? I'd pay $700 for a hummer shell! Did ya use the caddi transaxle and make IT a mid engine! or is it setup in the normal front engine rear wheel drive, or 4 wheel drive or what? MAN I can't WAIT to see them pics! Hope I can find this e-mail when your firewall's fixed! Lemme know when the firewall's fixed kay? LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > WHERE'd ya pick up a hummer at? > > At a government auction near Los Angelos more or less. Bought two > frame rails, a fender, the basic body shell, cut up, for $700 as > scrap. Put it on a pallet, then sent it by rail to Philadelphia where > I went down from newburgh NY with a 25' flatbed to pick up the pallet. > > > What engine is in the hummer again? I can't remember what ya said? > > 500 cid Caddy out of a 70 or 71 eldorado. Don't remember the year. > > > That's SOOOO COOL! Do ya have any pics of it on the web? > > Yep... but my firewall is finicky, so you can't see 'em at the moment. > > http://www.xephic.dynip.com/swamprat/index.html. > > When the firewall is fixed, you can check it out. I just never get to > it. mail works :) > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 20 21:04:10 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:04:10 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Would your FI setup for the 440 intake bolt onto the 426 Hemi's intake? (i.e. are the runners located in the same position? I know the intake bolts are verticle on the hemi vs. the 440 has the angled intake bolts, but other than that, I've never noticed any diff? I'll probably use a RAT ROASTER when I inject my twin turbo 426 Hemi, how bout you? If ya think ya want some Hemi parts go to my link page at: http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm and go to the Swapmeet stuff, there's quite a bit of VERY TRICK HEMI stuff there for sale! Like Hemi Alum rods, 8 titanium keepers or retainers, can't remember which, gear drive, etc.. Some of this stuff is usable on our NON hemi BB Mopes... LATER! Todd....!! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Anyhoo.. I believe ya, the Hemi heads really flow alot, even in stock > > form, add that to the shape of the combustion chamber and where the > > They also look cool and sound cool. However, they suck gas. Good > candidate for EFI :) > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Thu May 20 21:12:59 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:12:59 -0400 Subject: TEST (Ignore me!) Message-ID: Told ya so :) From realsquash at yahoo.com Thu May 20 21:24:43 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:24:43 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: --- "Todd....!!" wrote: > I'll probably use a RAT ROASTER when I inject my > twin turbo 426 Hemi, What is a RAT Roaster?? Is this a mopar anti-chevy slang term? Andy _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Thu May 20 21:26:12 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:26:12 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: > HOW in the world didi ya find out when and where this auction was going > to be? I dunno, this was back in the early 90's, but they have them every so often. Read the papers, car mags, etc, sometimes they advertise in the back. Those "Jeep for $10" government ads are information about auctions... waste of 10 bucks really, but thats your worse case scenario. We should prolly take this offline too since its a carb based truck at the moment, and I don't have the time to EFI it, too many other EFI things going on. > I'd pay $700 for a hummer shell! Yeah, that goes without saying. I really wasn't in the market for one at any price, however I was visiting a friend in LA, he was going, I tagged along, I found this carcass, and couldn't help myself. > Did ya use the caddi transaxle and make IT a mid engine! or is it setup > in the normal front engine rear wheel drive, or 4 wheel drive or what? 4wd using hummer diffs, 5 speed out of a commercial GM box truck of some sort (junkyard), engine/trans adaptor. > Hope I can find this e-mail when your firewall's fixed! Remind me every few weeks. From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Thu May 20 21:50:42 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:50:42 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Hemi's do not use siamesed intake ports like the B engine heads. Most stuff from the bottom end is interchangeable i.e..) timing chain or gear drive, timing cover, water pump, oil pump, NOT the cam, oil pick up on hemi is 1/2" instead of 3/8" pipe (can be changed on 440 block to Hemi specks), cranks, NOT main caps, NOT blocks. Bill Edgeworth "Todd....!!" wrote: > Would your FI setup for the 440 intake bolt onto the 426 Hemi's intake? > (i.e. are the runners located in the same position? I know the intake > bolts are verticle on the hemi vs. the 440 has the angled intake bolts, > but other than that, I've never noticed any diff? > > I'll probably use a RAT ROASTER when I inject my twin turbo 426 Hemi, > how bout you? > > If ya think ya want some Hemi parts go to my link page at: > http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm > and go to the Swapmeet stuff, there's quite a bit of VERY TRICK HEMI > stuff there for sale! Like Hemi Alum rods, 8 titanium keepers or > retainers, can't remember which, gear drive, etc.. Some of this stuff is > usable on our NON hemi BB Mopes... > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > Anyhoo.. I believe ya, the Hemi heads really flow alot, even in stock > > > form, add that to the shape of the combustion chamber and where the > > > > They also look cool and sound cool. However, they suck gas. Good > > candidate for EFI :) > > > > -- > > > > Frederic Breitwieser > > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 20 21:59:44 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:59:44 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: Now, to me rather than go on,, with further testing while it might settle a curiousity, it doesn't help with what my goal is. If you think about it, there are so many variables that on any one day, you can ask, where are things?. ie O2 level, in the atmosphere varies day to day, along with other "rare" chemicals. that might contaminate the results. In the oem applications they supply a reference voltage which as to effect the ionization, and performance of the O2 v generating strategy. The useful facts as I see them are: In cold weather, a none heated O2 sensor can go open loop. due to the O2 sensor being too cold. A heated O2 develops enough heat so that it can "properly sense" the needed gases to operate. The O2 sensor, as tested responds to HC rather than O2. While you might be able to change things, or define other operating modes, I know that if I mount the sensor far enough away from the engine that being heated is neseccary, then I know what gases matter, and thus what the sensor is seeing. Grumpy > Varying the amounts of HC, CO, > >CO2, and NOx don't affect the sensor. Only O2 quantity in relation to > >the sensor's reference changes voltage. TPS senses TP whether output > >voltage increases or decreases with increased throttle angle. Why do > >you think an "inverted" output from the O2 sensor makes it a Not O2 > >sensor? > A TPS has a supply voltage that can be modulated in either increasing or > decreasing fashion with increasing throttle angle, but the O2 sensor has to > make its own voltage. My simple logic led me to the conclusion that the > compound that is being actually being sensed must be the one that provides > this positive voltage. > Then I remembered that the O2 sensor is actually a differential sensor, like > you said: it provides voltage based on the differential between the outside > reference air and the gases in the exhaust. So my new hypothesis is that > the sensor is sensing O2, but it actually produces voltage from the > reference oxygen; when it is compared to an oxygen-poor environment in an > exhaust stream, there is a voltage differential across the ion-sensing > electrodes, and the voltage produced at the reference side goes up the > signal wire. When the O2 is even on both sides, no voltage is produced. > Of course, this would only apply to the zirconium type O2 sensors, the > titanium dioxide ones do actually use a reference voltage and act as a > variable resistor. > So now what I want to see is someone test a sensor using sealed chambers > for both reference and exhaust sides, using O2, HCs, an inert gas such as > argon, and another gas containing negative ions (maybe one of the halogens) > as a control. :-p > Soren From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Thu May 20 22:07:16 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:07:16 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Us mopar guys cannot be held responsible for what edelbrock named the manifold. It is a manifold with a huge plenum area with a removable top. Tops are available in 1X4 and 2X4 the manifold design allows for all kinds of playing around with air dams inside the manifold to tune for specific applications. there was also two bases one for drag racing and one for nascar. It is a ram tube design but fits under the hood unlike a tunnel ram. I prefer beating Rats as opposed to cooking them. Bill Edgeworth Squash wrote: > --- "Todd....!!" wrote: > > I'll probably use a RAT ROASTER when I inject my > > twin turbo 426 Hemi, > > What is a RAT Roaster?? Is this a mopar anti-chevy > slang term? > > Andy > _____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 20 22:36:45 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:36:45 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: >I was thinking ( rare but it does happen) when a standing wave is set up >the exhaust would be moving slowwer (higher pressure). Hey--in the flow of a compressible fluid, higher pressure = higher temp, without even worrying about contact time. Just the way it works. Greg > >where the standing wave was there would be more of a heat buildup > due to a slightly longer time in contact with the pipe. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Thu May 20 23:22:18 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:22:18 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: At 02:26 PM 5/20/99 -0700, you wrote: >--- "Todd....!!" wrote: >> I'll probably use a RAT ROASTER when I inject my >> twin turbo 426 Hemi, > >What is a RAT Roaster?? Is this a mopar anti-chevy >slang term? The Rat Roaster was a big flat intake I believe had Dual quads on it. One in the rear right and the other in the front left (If I remember right... may have been reversed). Just the name it was given. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From questeds at whio.lincoln.ac.nz Thu May 20 23:38:13 1999 From: questeds at whio.lincoln.ac.nz (Simon Quested) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:38:13 -0400 Subject: Supercharged 440 Message-ID: Hi Jason Sounds like a nice engine! > Rob at Force fuel injection told me that i better add enrichment fuel to > the top of the blower (roots have low efficiency you know) to provide some > additional cooling so I'm working on that now. I have a EFI supercharged (roots) 2L pinto engine in my Capri. To fix the problem off charge heating I used a very simple DIY water injection set up. It is a PWM 555 circuit controlling a windscreen washer pump that injects in to the TB, the water injector is mounted in the air filter. The amount of water injected is adjustable on the dash. I just increased the water until the detonation stopped. The whole set up cost about US$25 The only hassle with water injection is all the extra hardware like the water tank pump and plumbing. > I dunno how is the best way to drive the additional injectors though - any > ideas on an inexpensive additional injector driver would be appreciated I forget who suggested it but the easy way is to use the pulse to the injectors, feed the injector signal in to 1 input of a 2 input AND gate the other input is controlled by a hobbs switch, the out put goes to an injector driver. This way when the boost reaches the set point the extra injector comes on and it is triggered / controlled by the ECU. Cheers  Simon +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Simon Quested Computer Engineer, Silicon Graphics & Windows NT Support LINCOLN UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND Phone (64)(03) 3252811 Ext. 8087 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A person who smiles in the face of adversity .....probably has a scapegoat. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From orin at wolfenet.com Thu May 20 23:41:45 1999 From: orin at wolfenet.com (Orin Eman) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:41:45 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: > The useful facts as I see them are: > In cold weather, a none heated O2 sensor can go open loop. due to the O2 > sensor being too cold. A heated O2 develops enough heat so that it can > "properly sense" the needed gases to operate. > The O2 sensor, as tested responds to HC rather than O2. > While you might be able to change things, or define other operating modes, > I know that if I mount the sensor far enough away from the engine that being > heated is neseccary, then I know what gases matter, and thus what the sensor > is seeing. There are a couple of things I'd like to throw in the mix here. The heater on the heated sensor is a helper to get the sensor up to temperature... it's probably still relying on hot exhaust gases to be at working temperature... it may not be hot enough when testing with room temperature gases. There is a catalyst on the electrodes which may well promote the combustion of gaseous hydrocarbons with the O2 that diffuses thru the sensor, hence the reaction to gaseous hydrocarbons. The sensor itself, when hot enough senses the relative concentrations of O2. This is not necessarily the O2 concentration in the exhaust gases as measured by other means due to the catalytic action of the sensor electrode... Orin. From gderian at oh.verio.com Thu May 20 23:42:53 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:42:53 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Todd, what did your mph do in the 1/4 when the octane boost increased power so much your ET's got longer? Maybe some dew condensed onto the track, or someone blew their engine. Gary Derian > > I then proceeded to not EVER gain traction for the rest of the > night, about 5 runs in all with the octane boost in the tank, E.T. NEVER > even dropped to mid 14's again! Due to wheel spin.... > From gderian at oh.verio.com Thu May 20 23:42:55 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:42:55 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: If one has a sliding clutch, it should be set to hold the engine at max torque rpm, not max power rpm. Gary Derian > > The rpm's aren't held constant unless you have some sorta newfangled > clutch setup like the top fuelers have that hold their rpm's at PEAK > power the whole run! THAT would be nice!! > From gderian at oh.verio.com Thu May 20 23:42:56 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:42:56 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Actually, the plug location in a Hemi is bad because it is off to one side. Its the best you can do with a Hemi but its still bad. As a result it needs lots of ignition advance and high octane for a given compression. Now the Dick Landy twin plug heads really hastens the combustion and makes an already strong engine much stronger. Other mfgs have used twin plugs since then. Gary Derian > Anyhoo.. I believe ya, the Hemi heads really flow alot, even in stock > form, add that to the shape of the combustion chamber and where the > spark plug(s) are located within the cylinder and you have one power > packin pachyderm! > > > Todd.... From bearbvd at sni.net Thu May 20 23:49:10 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:49:10 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: >Hemi's do not use siamesed intake ports like the B engine heads. Most stuff >from the bottom end is interchangeable i.e..) timing chain or gear drive, >timing cover, water pump, oil pump, NOT the cam, oil pick up on hemi is 1/2" >instead of 3/8" pipe (can be changed on 440 block to Hemi specks), cranks, >NOT main caps, NOT blocks. > >Bill Edgeworth > Yep--the 2,3, &4 caps are cross bolted on a Hemi. Cranks do not interchange either. Greg From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Thu May 20 23:58:17 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:58:17 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: "David A. Cooley" wrote: > > > The Rat Roaster was a big flat intake I believe had Dual quads on it. One > in the rear right and the other in the front left (If I remember right... > may have been reversed). Just the name it was given. That was actually the 426 Race Hemi Super Stock Cross Ram. It was kind of similar to the Rat Roaster as you could also perform application specific modifications inside of it. Bill Edgeworth From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Fri May 21 00:13:42 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:13:42 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Greg Hermann wrote: > > Yep--the 2,3, &4 caps are cross bolted on a Hemi. Cranks do not interchange > either. > > Greg You can use the Hemi crank in a RB engine however there is the issue of balance (the Hemi has heavier stock rods) and a 8 bolt flange on the Hemi as opposed to a 6 bolt on the RB engine. Both the 440 and 426 have 3.75 stroke. However the Low block (383-400) has smaller mains and you cannot use the Hemi crank without cutting down the mains. Bill Edgeworth From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 21 00:33:15 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:33:15 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: I *added* heat with the lighter earlier, and no changes were noted. On the cars being used in really cold temps, the exhaust on several models the tubing would not crack spit. Meaning while over 210dF, was not really hot. On some vettes, the O2s are probably 4' away from the ports. On a really cold day, at idle, with mechanics gloves (nomex type)(none operative cat) you can hold the exhaust back there. If the temp was a major concern why is't there a true strategy to compensate for it?. This when hot enough, is this the 800-900dC temp?. When does an average engine reach an EGT of that?. When speaking of a catalyst, fine, but without knowing what it is, and what it's properties are, is gets again rather mute, as I see it. By the way, in all my testing I was using a strategy where by I know to some degree what the actual heater temperature is. So I can duplicate this on car, and then see what is going on. Without quessing. While oems, are doing this O2 work as a emission law mandated issue, I'm just trying to figure out enough to do what I want to do. Other issues don't matter, other than as a point of interest, or maybe concern for others. Grumpy > > The useful facts as I see them are: > > In cold weather, a none heated O2 sensor can go open loop. due to the O2 > > sensor being too cold. A heated O2 develops enough heat so that it can > > "properly sense" the needed gases to operate. > > The O2 sensor, as tested responds to HC rather than O2. > > While you might be able to change things, or define other operating modes, > > I know that if I mount the sensor far enough away from the engine that being > > heated is neseccary, then I know what gases matter, and thus what the sensor > > is seeing. > There are a couple of things I'd like to throw in the mix here. > The heater on the heated sensor is a helper to get the sensor up to > temperature... it's probably still relying on hot exhaust gases to > be at working temperature... it may not be hot enough when testing with > room temperature gases. > There is a catalyst on the electrodes which may well promote the > combustion of gaseous hydrocarbons with the O2 that diffuses thru > the sensor, hence the reaction to gaseous hydrocarbons. > The sensor itself, when hot enough senses the relative concentrations > of O2. This is not necessarily the O2 concentration in the exhaust > gases as measured by other means due to the catalytic action of the > sensor electrode... > Orin. From bearbvd at sni.net Fri May 21 00:33:52 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:33:52 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: >Us mopar guys cannot be held responsible for what edelbrock named the >manifold. It is a manifold with a huge plenum area with a removable top. >Tops are available in 1X4 and 2X4 the manifold design allows for all >kinds of playing around with air dams inside the manifold to tune for >specific applications. there was also two bases one for drag racing and >one for nascar. It is a ram tube design but fits under the hood unlike a >tunnel ram. >I prefer beating Rats as opposed to cooking them. > >Bill Edgeworth Well--'tis true that rats end up rather FLAT (and do not run very well at all) after an elephant has stepped upon them!! Greg > >Squash wrote: > >> --- "Todd....!!" wrote: >> > I'll probably use a RAT ROASTER when I inject my >> > twin turbo 426 Hemi, >> >> What is a RAT Roaster?? Is this a mopar anti-chevy >> slang term? >> >> Andy >> _____________________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From shannen at grolen.com Fri May 21 00:51:29 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:51:29 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: soren wrote: > So now what I want to see is someone test a sensor using sealed chambers > for both reference and exhaust sides, using O2, HCs, an inert gas such as > argon, and another gas containing negative ions (maybe one of the halogens) > as a control. :-p > > Soren Soon, if time allows, I hope to try some tests. I'll attempt something similar to this, based on the gasses present around the shop. Shannen From RRauscher at nni.com Fri May 21 01:13:40 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:13:40 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: Jay Wallace wrote: > > At 02:03 AM 5/20/99 -0400, you wrote: > >rr wrote: > >> > >> >> Bruce Wrote: > > snip... > > >> Response's to different gases: > >> > >> propane: rapid and long lasting, > 850mv. > >> R12: light response, quick to return to nominal, ~475mv. > >> acetylene: rapid and long lasted, > 750mv. > >> hold breath, breath through tube into can: no effect... > >> argon: light response, very short lived: ~70mv. > >> contact cleaner: medium response, ~650mv. > >> (tricloroethane + diclorodifluoromethane) > >> > >> (couldn't find any butane) > >> > >> Thinking about this, it makes sense. Once you reach stoich (450mv), > >> how can you go higher? Only if the excess hc takes it there... > >> > >> The argon response, or lack thereof, is interesting. > >You didn't report on the duration of the gas "shot". Not sure it > >matters, but I would have left whatever gas "running" for a fixed > >amount of time in the can. Or better yet, continously until end of > >test. Methinks I may have been motivated enough to do my own > >experiments. > >Shannen > > I wouldn't be surprised if Shannen is on the right track here: Ar > is heavier (denser) than air so it would sink to the bottom of > whatever container that it is flowing into. You would need to flow > long enough to displace all of the air before the tip of the sensor > was surrounded by Ar. > > One more thing that should be emphasized: a standard oxygen sensor > is just an electrochemical cell with the output voltage > proportional to the difference in oxygen concentration between the > inside and outside (for a constant temperature) as long as the > zirconia is hot enough to conduct. The output voltage is given by > the Nernst equation. I _think_ that all of the experimental > observations are consistent with this. > > Jay If I got an instant response, I really didn't run the gas much longer. But for say, the argon, with a slow response, it was run for a while, easily 30 to 60 seconds. Not real scientific, but I'm on a limited time budget. Another thought, in the back of my mind, I believe that o2 sensors are built with a very thin film of platinum on the sensor cone. This would act like a cat-con, burning any HC's and robbing the porous cone of any o2. Including that o2 that has permated the cone material. This may help explain the rapid reaction to hc's. BobR. -- From RRauscher at nni.com Fri May 21 01:13:47 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:13:47 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: soren wrote: > > Varying the amounts of HC, CO, > >CO2, and NOx don't affect the sensor. Only O2 quantity in relation to > >the sensor's reference changes voltage. TPS senses TP whether output > >voltage increases or decreases with increased throttle angle. Why do > >you think an "inverted" output from the O2 sensor makes it a Not O2 > >sensor? > > A TPS has a supply voltage that can be modulated in either increasing or > decreasing fashion with increasing throttle angle, but the O2 sensor has to > make its own voltage. My simple logic led me to the conclusion that the > compound that is being actually being sensed must be the one that provides > this positive voltage. > Then I remembered that the O2 sensor is actually a differential sensor, like > you said: it provides voltage based on the differential between the outside > reference air and the gases in the exhaust. So my new hypothesis is that > the sensor is sensing O2, but it actually produces voltage from the > reference oxygen; when it is compared to an oxygen-poor environment in an > exhaust stream, there is a voltage differential across the ion-sensing > electrodes, and the voltage produced at the reference side goes up the > signal wire. When the O2 is even on both sides, no voltage is produced. > Of course, this would only apply to the zirconium type O2 sensors, the > titanium dioxide ones do actually use a reference voltage and act as a > variable resistor. > So now what I want to see is someone test a sensor using sealed chambers > for both reference and exhaust sides, using O2, HCs, an inert gas such as > argon, and another gas containing negative ions (maybe one of the halogens) > as a control. :-p > > Soren Check out the SAE articles that were pointed too, this is the kind of thing that the epa was doing: http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/~markw/efi/SAE920289/ http://vehicle.me.berkeley.edu/~markw/efi/SAE930352/ They are interesting reading. BobR. -- From RRauscher at nni.com Fri May 21 01:44:18 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:44:18 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Now, to me rather than go on,, with further testing while it might settle a > curiousity, it doesn't help with what my goal is. > If you think about it, there are so many variables that on any one day, > you can ask, where are things?. ie O2 level, in the atmosphere varies day > to day, along with other "rare" chemicals. that might contaminate the > results. > In the oem applications they supply a reference voltage which as to effect > the ionization, and performance of the O2 v generating strategy. > > The useful facts as I see them are: > In cold weather, a none heated O2 sensor can go open loop. due to the O2 > sensor being too cold. A heated O2 develops enough heat so that it can > "properly sense" the needed gases to operate. > The O2 sensor, as tested responds to HC rather than O2. > While you might be able to change things, or define other operating modes, > I know that if I mount the sensor far enough away from the engine that being > heated is neseccary, then I know what gases matter, and thus what the sensor > is seeing. > Grumpy > I think your right on here, I've two observations that run the same course. a. A engine temperature based, o2 sensor output correction table in ecm's. b. 2.8l/3.1l f-body's, that get real bad fuel mileage in cold (<50f), wet weather. The o2 sensor is mounted low, at the 'y' pipe joint, about one-and-a-half feet from the head exhaust port. (one wire, it cools off). I want to confirm this one with a scanner, once the weather gets cold again, then try a heated sensor, if so. BobR. > > Varying the amounts of HC, CO, > > >CO2, and NOx don't affect the sensor. Only O2 quantity in relation to > > >the sensor's reference changes voltage. TPS senses TP whether output > > >voltage increases or decreases with increased throttle angle. Why do > > >you think an "inverted" output from the O2 sensor makes it a Not O2 > > >sensor? > > A TPS has a supply voltage that can be modulated in either increasing > or > > decreasing fashion with increasing throttle angle, but the O2 sensor has > to > > make its own voltage. My simple logic led me to the conclusion that the > > compound that is being actually being sensed must be the one that provides > > this positive voltage. > > Then I remembered that the O2 sensor is actually a differential sensor, > like > > you said: it provides voltage based on the differential between the > outside > > reference air and the gases in the exhaust. So my new hypothesis is that > > the sensor is sensing O2, but it actually produces voltage from the > > reference oxygen; when it is compared to an oxygen-poor environment in an > > exhaust stream, there is a voltage differential across the ion-sensing > > electrodes, and the voltage produced at the reference side goes up the > > signal wire. When the O2 is even on both sides, no voltage is produced. > > Of course, this would only apply to the zirconium type O2 sensors, the > > titanium dioxide ones do actually use a reference voltage and act as a > > variable resistor. > > So now what I want to see is someone test a sensor using sealed > chambers > > for both reference and exhaust sides, using O2, HCs, an inert gas such as > > argon, and another gas containing negative ions (maybe one of the > halogens) > > as a control. :-p > > Soren From RRauscher at nni.com Fri May 21 01:44:20 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:44:20 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: Orin Eman wrote: > >???? wrote: > > The useful facts as I see them are: > > In cold weather, a none heated O2 sensor can go open loop. due to the O2 > > sensor being too cold. A heated O2 develops enough heat so that it can > > "properly sense" the needed gases to operate. > > The O2 sensor, as tested responds to HC rather than O2. > > While you might be able to change things, or define other operating modes, > > I know that if I mount the sensor far enough away from the engine that being > > heated is neseccary, then I know what gases matter, and thus what the sensor > > is seeing. > > There are a couple of things I'd like to throw in the mix here. > > The heater on the heated sensor is a helper to get the sensor up to > temperature... it's probably still relying on hot exhaust gases to > be at working temperature... it may not be hot enough when testing with > room temperature gases. > > There is a catalyst on the electrodes which may well promote the > combustion of gaseous hydrocarbons with the O2 that diffuses thru > the sensor, hence the reaction to gaseous hydrocarbons. > > The sensor itself, when hot enough senses the relative concentrations > of O2. This is not necessarily the O2 concentration in the exhaust > gases as measured by other means due to the catalytic action of the > sensor electrode... > > Orin. Yes, this makes sense. I was thinking that there is a very thin layer of platinum deposited on the sensor cone during manufacturing. Can't remember where I got the info from. So, my brains cells didn't fail me... BobR. -- From fluffy at snurgle.org Fri May 21 01:46:20 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:46:20 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: On Thu, 20 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > If one has a sliding clutch, it should be set to hold the engine at max > torque rpm, not max power rpm. I disagree, because of the effects of gearing. A hypothetical engine makes 300 ft.lbs at its torque peak of 4000 RPM. At that RPM it makes 228.5 HP. Let's say it makes 201.3 ft.lbs at its HP peak of 6000 RPM. At that RPM it makes 230 HP. This is an engine that could probably use a new cam. :} Even so, once gearing is taken into consideration, it is better to use the HP peak. You can have a 33% lower gear ratio at the higher RPM, which - more or less by definition - outweighs the decrease in torque at the HP peak. Once we gear this engine down by 1/3 it makes the same 300 ft.lbs of torque that it did at its torque peak. But let's say we have an engine that doesn't have its torque fall off so badly. Let's say, instead, the engine makes 220 ft.lbs at 6000 RPM, instead, for an HP rating of 251.3. This engine, when gearing is taken into consideration, can generate an effective 328 ft.lbs of torque - a noticeable improvement. This is why engines are rated mostly in HP. Torque is of course the most important component in acceleration, but what RPM the torque is generated at is just as important. HP is a better measurement of torque at RPM, although of course a full printout of the torque curve is the best :} From claresnyder at home.com Fri May 21 02:40:20 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 22:40:20 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Derian To: Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model > If one has a sliding clutch, it should be set to hold the engine at max > torque rpm, not max power rpm. > Gary Derian > > > > The rpm's aren't held constant unless you have some sorta newfangled > > clutch setup like the top fuelers have that hold their rpm's at PEAK > > power the whole run! THAT would be nice!! > > >On a snowmobile it holds at max HP rpm at wide open throttle. With a 2 stage helix it can hold max torque atpart throttle. > > From chris_beasley at mindspring.com Fri May 21 06:41:57 1999 From: chris_beasley at mindspring.com (Christopher J Beasley) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 02:41:57 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Hi, I've been lurking for a little while and have a couple of questions. It seems this list is very detail oriented, my questions are more specific. I would like to know how to make a very simple injection system, possibly the simplest available design, with the caveat that it must be closed loop, and have reasonably good performance. My current plan revolves around a 68HC11 or '332 with an O2 sensor. This will be targeted at a 650cc single cylinder motorcycle engine. I assume I will also need a tach sensor, throttle position sensor, and some kind of manifold sensor. What is the minimum subset of sensors that you need? What kind of manifold sensors exist? Do I have to take over ignition as well? What's the cost/benefit of this integration? I already know that this particular engine lacks a rev limiter so I'd want to incorporate that feature. It seems the list focuses mostly on control systems. I'm wondering where to buy things in small quantities like throttle bodies with TPS, mass flow sensors, pumps regulators, injectors. In short, all the goodies I don't already have ( computer guy if you hadn't guessed). Thanks folks! Beez From gderian at oh.verio.com Fri May 21 12:54:50 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:54:50 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: I race go-karts which use centrifugal clutches so I have done some thinking here. If you change your gears, you have changed your top speed at max rpm. If you are pulling stumps, use as low a gear as you can but still set the clutch stall at max torque. For a drag racer, not traction limited, you need to maximize the "power under the curve" for the 1/4 mile and must choose a gear that does this without blowing up the engine before the traps. Once you are close on a gear, the clutch setting can be calculated. Since a sliding clutch transmits all the torque input (there is no where else for it to go) and converts power into heat, it stands to reason the more torque input, the more torque output. Therefore set the stall to the max torque rpm. If you want to change your gearing, you still must set the stall to the max torque rpm. For a drag run with a sliding clutch (again, not traction limited), start out at max torque rpm while the clutch is sliding, as speed builds up, the clutch will lock up and rpm increase to max power rpm and beyond. At this point, you can shift gears if you have them. One would hit the traps at an rpm between max power and the rev limit. This is only for a sliding clutch or fluid coupling. A snowmobile uses a CVT so does not absorb power. For this case, operating the engine at max power rpm will be faster. A torque converter multiplies torque and absorbs some power so it operates somewhere in between. Gary Derian > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > > > If one has a sliding clutch, it should be set to hold the engine at max > > torque rpm, not max power rpm. > > I disagree, because of the effects of gearing. > > A hypothetical engine makes 300 ft.lbs at its torque peak of 4000 RPM. > At that RPM it makes 228.5 HP. > > Let's say it makes 201.3 ft.lbs at its HP peak of 6000 RPM. At that RPM > it makes 230 HP. This is an engine that could probably use a new cam. :} > > Even so, once gearing is taken into consideration, it is better to use the > HP peak. You can have a 33% lower gear ratio at the higher RPM, which - > more or less by definition - outweighs the decrease in torque at the HP > peak. Once we gear this engine down by 1/3 it makes the same 300 ft.lbs > of torque that it did at its torque peak. > > But let's say we have an engine that doesn't have its torque fall off so > badly. Let's say, instead, the engine makes 220 ft.lbs at 6000 RPM, > instead, for an HP rating of 251.3. This engine, when gearing is taken > into consideration, can generate an effective 328 ft.lbs of torque - a > noticeable improvement. > > This is why engines are rated mostly in HP. Torque is of course the most > important component in acceleration, but what RPM the torque is generated > at is just as important. HP is a better measurement of torque at RPM, > although of course a full printout of the torque curve is the best :} From gderian at oh.verio.com Fri May 21 12:54:57 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:54:57 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can think of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making a 3 way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich PE. Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark timing. Gary Derian > Hi, I've been lurking for a little while and have a couple of questions. > It seems this list is very detail oriented, my questions are more specific. > > I would like to know how to make a very simple injection system, possibly the > simplest > available design, with the caveat that it must be closed loop, and have > reasonably good > performance. My current plan revolves around a 68HC11 or '332 with an O2 > sensor. This will be targeted at a 650cc single cylinder motorcycle engine. I > assume I will also need a tach sensor, throttle position sensor, and some kind > of manifold sensor. What is the minimum subset of sensors that you need? What > kind of manifold sensors exist? > > Do I have to take over ignition as well? What's the cost/benefit of this > integration? I already know that this particular engine lacks a rev limiter so > I'd want to incorporate that feature. > > It seems the list focuses mostly on control systems. I'm wondering where to buy > things in small quantities like throttle bodies with TPS, mass flow sensors, > pumps regulators, injectors. In short, all the goodies I don't already have ( > computer guy if you hadn't guessed). > Thanks folks! > Beez > From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 21 12:59:53 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:59:53 -0400 Subject: Clues Needed Message-ID: Being new to the scope world, and after reading a scope manual, I'm still at a lose, and hope someone could clear these meanings up for me. When using the triggering mode selection there are these options. Auto + Internal - Internal +External -External Auto-seems to mean that the pulses are displayed as they occur, and the trigger sense lead need not be connected. ALSO, for these 4 other options where would one hook the sense lead to. Any help here appreciated. Bruce Happy used to, really chase the skirts. But, having visited Scotland last weekend, has left him confused...... From realsquash at yahoo.com Fri May 21 13:07:06 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:07:06 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: --- Greg Hermann wrote: > Well--'tis true that rats end up rather FLAT (and do > not run very well at all) after an elephant has > stepped upon them!! I suppose they do! But aren't elephants scared of mice? Andy _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 21 14:18:57 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:18:57 -0400 Subject: Clues Needed Message-ID: > Being new to the scope world, and after reading a scope manual, I'm still at > a lose, and hope someone could clear these meanings up for me. > When using the triggering mode selection there are these options. > Auto This triggers the synchronization of the scope from whatever signal is fed into the normal vertical input. > + Internal > - Internal These are similar to auto in they pick up off the signal sent to the vertical input, but the level it sync's at is adjustable with the trigger level control. + and - are for which slope of the waveform it triggers off of. > +External > -External These require the external trigger input to be hooked to it's own source... On the PCM, you could hook the trigger input to the 18X or TACH signal and hook the vertical probe to whatever you want and see it in relation to the 18X or TACH signal. From ord at aei.ca Fri May 21 14:32:19 1999 From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:32:19 -0400 Subject: Clues Needed Message-ID: +/- internal - usually means triggers off the 50 or 60hz ac supply, either on the rising or falling zero volt cross. (could mean that the trigger is extracted from the signal input in some cases) +/- external - triggers off the the sense lead, either on the rising or falling edge. There should be a setting for level - whenever the input voltages cross this level the scope makes a trace. Auto - just triggers as soon as one h-sweep is finished. When using a seperate trigger, hook it to something that's in sync with what you want to measure - think of it like a timing light. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 11:05 AM Subject: Clues Needed >Being new to the scope world, and after reading a scope manual, I'm still at >a lose, and hope someone could clear these meanings up for me. > When using the triggering mode selection there are these options. >Auto >+ Internal >- Internal >+External >-External >Auto-seems to mean that the pulses are displayed as they occur, and the >trigger > sense lead need not be connected. >ALSO, for these 4 other options where would one hook the sense lead to. >Any help here appreciated. >Bruce > Happy used to, really chase the skirts. > But, having visited Scotland last weekend, has left him confused...... > > From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 14:57:02 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:57:02 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Hey Andy, The diagonal dual quad bathtub type intake on a HEMI and other Mopars is what's known as a Rat roaster type intake, now that ya mention it, it does have the word Rat and Roaster in the name, maybe they named it that cuz it actually DOES what it's name mentions...? Thanks for sharing the distinction about the name.... LATER! Todd....!! Squash wrote: > > --- "Todd....!!" wrote: > > I'll probably use a RAT ROASTER when I inject my > > twin turbo 426 Hemi, > > What is a RAT Roaster?? Is this a mopar anti-chevy > slang term? > > Andy > _____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 14:57:04 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:57:04 -0400 Subject: 1227749 Message-ID: Right place at the right time so it seems! ey? Will definitely remind ya about the web site thing... LATER! Todd....!! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > HOW in the world didi ya find out when and where this auction was going > > to be? > > I dunno, this was back in the early 90's, but they have them every so > often. Read the papers, car mags, etc, sometimes they advertise in the > back. Those "Jeep for $10" government ads are information about > auctions... waste of 10 bucks really, but thats your worse case > scenario. > > We should prolly take this offline too since its a carb based truck at > the moment, and I don't have the time to EFI it, too many other EFI > things going on. > > > I'd pay $700 for a hummer shell! > > Yeah, that goes without saying. I really wasn't in the market for one > at any price, however I was visiting a friend in LA, he was going, I > tagged along, I found this carcass, and couldn't help myself. > > > Did ya use the caddi transaxle and make IT a mid engine! or is it setup > > in the normal front engine rear wheel drive, or 4 wheel drive or what? > > 4wd using hummer diffs, 5 speed out of a commercial GM box truck of some > sort (junkyard), engine/trans adaptor. > > > Hope I can find this e-mail when your firewall's fixed! > > Remind me every few weeks. From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 14:57:10 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:57:10 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: COOL, Thanks for the info! Later! Todd....!! Bill Edgeworth wrote: > > Hemi's do not use siamesed intake ports like the B engine heads. Most stuff > from the bottom end is interchangeable i.e..) timing chain or gear drive, > timing cover, water pump, oil pump, NOT the cam, oil pick up on hemi is 1/2" > instead of 3/8" pipe (can be changed on 440 block to Hemi specks), cranks, > NOT main caps, NOT blocks. > > Bill Edgeworth > > "Todd....!!" wrote: > > > Would your FI setup for the 440 intake bolt onto the 426 Hemi's intake? > > (i.e. are the runners located in the same position? I know the intake > > bolts are verticle on the hemi vs. the 440 has the angled intake bolts, > > but other than that, I've never noticed any diff? > > > > I'll probably use a RAT ROASTER when I inject my twin turbo 426 Hemi, > > how bout you? > > > > If ya think ya want some Hemi parts go to my link page at: > > http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm > > and go to the Swapmeet stuff, there's quite a bit of VERY TRICK HEMI > > stuff there for sale! Like Hemi Alum rods, 8 titanium keepers or > > retainers, can't remember which, gear drive, etc.. Some of this stuff is > > usable on our NON hemi BB Mopes... > > > > LATER! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > > > Anyhoo.. I believe ya, the Hemi heads really flow alot, even in stock > > > > form, add that to the shape of the combustion chamber and where the > > > > > > They also look cool and sound cool. However, they suck gas. Good > > > candidate for EFI :) > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Frederic Breitwieser > > > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > > > > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > > > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > > > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > > > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 14:57:16 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:57:16 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Hey Gary, More actual TOTAL POWER is produced under the power curve, I believe, where the Torque curve meets the HP curve... Ya think? I once saw on TV a REAL TIME graph of a TOP FUEL DRAGSTERS' rpm's during an ENTIRE 1/4 run, all 3.x seconds of it! The rpm's stayed right around 7,000 the whole time! Pretty cool, ey? LATER! Todd....!! ------------------- Gary Derian wrote: > > If one has a sliding clutch, it should be set to hold the engine at max > torque rpm, not max power rpm. > Gary Derian > > > > The rpm's aren't held constant unless you have some sorta newfangled > > clutch setup like the top fuelers have that hold their rpm's at PEAK > > power the whole run! THAT would be nice!! > > From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 14:57:19 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:57:19 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Hi Gary, Thanks for the clarification about the dual plug setup on the hemi being more efficient than the single plug version... Hence, why I stated 'plug(s)'.... Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all together due to not having a need for em anymore! The block and/or pistons can be electrically isolated from the heads fairly wasily with nonconductive head gaskets, etc... Kinda makes ya wonder, ey? Later! Todd....!! Gary Derian wrote: > > Actually, the plug location in a Hemi is bad because it is off to one side. > Its the best you can do with a Hemi but its still bad. As a result it needs > lots of ignition advance and high octane for a given compression. Now the > Dick Landy twin plug heads really hastens the combustion and makes an > already strong engine much stronger. Other mfgs have used twin plugs since > then. > > Gary Derian > > > Anyhoo.. I believe ya, the Hemi heads really flow alot, even in stock > > form, add that to the shape of the combustion chamber and where the > > spark plug(s) are located within the cylinder and you have one power > > packin pachyderm! > > > > > > Todd.... From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 14:57:36 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:57:36 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: I'll post the e.t.'s for the day, hope I kept the slower one's... I'm not sure if anyone broke or not, maybe some newby to the strip did a MAJORLY HAIRY burnout while standing IN the bleach box and threw water all up in his rear fenders and then lined up to race and left a puddle for me and everyone else who ran after him...? Could be... However, I ran a LOT of runs, with hardly ANY time inbetween them, most of the runs that night were within about 10-30 mins of each other! Hardly anyone else was out that night! I just kept on goin around and around and around.... Will try n find all those slips, put em in my picture book.... Thanks for posing the question about track conditions versus octane booster... Didn't think of that, and I think I kept runnin on the same side of the track... Later! Todd....!! Gary Derian wrote: > > Todd, what did your mph do in the 1/4 when the octane boost increased power > so much your ET's got longer? Maybe some dew condensed onto the track, or > someone blew their engine. > > Gary Derian > > > > I then proceeded to not EVER gain traction for the rest of the > > night, about 5 runs in all with the octane boost in the tank, E.T. NEVER > > even dropped to mid 14's again! Due to wheel spin.... > > From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 14:57:39 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:57:39 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Are ya sure that the cranks don't interchange? What's the diff? Besides the Hemi having 8 flywheel bolt holes vs the 440/383's 6 flywheel bolt holes Are the main journals a different size? or the rod journals? what? The stroke is 3.75, same as a 440... And as for the caps, jsut cuz there's an extra bolt hole in the main caps for the cross bolt, does that mean ya still can't use em in the 440? Just wonderinnnnnnnnn............!! Thanks! Todd....!! Greg Hermann wrote: > > >Hemi's do not use siamesed intake ports like the B engine heads. Most stuff > >from the bottom end is interchangeable i.e..) timing chain or gear drive, > >timing cover, water pump, oil pump, NOT the cam, oil pick up on hemi is 1/2" > >instead of 3/8" pipe (can be changed on 440 block to Hemi specks), cranks, > >NOT main caps, NOT blocks. > > > >Bill Edgeworth > > > Yep--the 2,3, &4 caps are cross bolted on a Hemi. Cranks do not interchange > either. > > Greg From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 14:57:44 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:57:44 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: FYI - I've SEEN my headers glow while idling at night.... I'm pretty SURE they glow while at WOT and any where inbetween.... How hot are headers when they begin to glow? Is there some sorta formula or somethin to tell us this, i've never heard of it, but I bet there is a specific temp when a specific metal (Like Iron, FE) glows... LATER! Todd....!! Bruce Plecan wrote: > > I *added* heat with the lighter earlier, and no changes were noted. > On the cars being used in really cold temps, the exhaust on several models > the tubing would not crack spit. Meaning while over 210dF, was not really > hot. > On some vettes, the O2s are probably 4' away from the ports. On a really > cold day, at idle, with mechanics gloves (nomex type)(none operative cat) > you can hold the exhaust back there. > If the temp was a major concern why is't there a true strategy to > compensate for it?. > This when hot enough, is this the 800-900dC temp?. When does an average > engine reach an EGT of that?. > When speaking of a catalyst, fine, but without knowing what it is, and > what it's properties are, is gets again rather mute, as I see it. > By the way, in all my testing I was using a strategy where by I know to > some degree what the actual heater temperature is. So I can duplicate this > on car, and then see what is going on. Without quessing. > While oems, are doing this O2 work as a emission law mandated issue, I'm > just trying to figure out enough to do what I want to do. Other issues > don't matter, other than as a point of interest, or maybe concern for > others. > Grumpy > > > > The useful facts as I see them are: > > > In cold weather, a none heated O2 sensor can go open loop. due to the > O2 > > > sensor being too cold. A heated O2 develops enough heat so that it can > > > "properly sense" the needed gases to operate. > > > The O2 sensor, as tested responds to HC rather than O2. > > > While you might be able to change things, or define other operating > modes, > > > I know that if I mount the sensor far enough away from the engine that > being > > > heated is neseccary, then I know what gases matter, and thus what the > sensor > > > is seeing. > > > There are a couple of things I'd like to throw in the mix here. > > > The heater on the heated sensor is a helper to get the sensor up to > > temperature... it's probably still relying on hot exhaust gases to > > be at working temperature... it may not be hot enough when testing with > > room temperature gases. > > > There is a catalyst on the electrodes which may well promote the > > combustion of gaseous hydrocarbons with the O2 that diffuses thru > > the sensor, hence the reaction to gaseous hydrocarbons. > > > The sensor itself, when hot enough senses the relative concentrations > > of O2. This is not necessarily the O2 concentration in the exhaust > > gases as measured by other means due to the catalytic action of the > > sensor electrode... > > > Orin. From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 14:57:47 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:57:47 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: FYI - In addition to the top fuel dragsters' engine being held at 7,000 rpm by the clutches engaging without spinning the tires(which is the goal, there's a VERY fine line in tuning them clutch packs as you probably know)... His rear gears were only like 3.73's or so! So they stated.... EVEN with those HUGE REAR SLICKS! Wierd, ey? LATER! Todd....!! William T Wilson wrote: > > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > > > If one has a sliding clutch, it should be set to hold the engine at max > > torque rpm, not max power rpm. > > I disagree, because of the effects of gearing. > > A hypothetical engine makes 300 ft.lbs at its torque peak of 4000 RPM. > At that RPM it makes 228.5 HP. > > Let's say it makes 201.3 ft.lbs at its HP peak of 6000 RPM. At that RPM > it makes 230 HP. This is an engine that could probably use a new cam. :} > > Even so, once gearing is taken into consideration, it is better to use the > HP peak. You can have a 33% lower gear ratio at the higher RPM, which - > more or less by definition - outweighs the decrease in torque at the HP > peak. Once we gear this engine down by 1/3 it makes the same 300 ft.lbs > of torque that it did at its torque peak. > > But let's say we have an engine that doesn't have its torque fall off so > badly. Let's say, instead, the engine makes 220 ft.lbs at 6000 RPM, > instead, for an HP rating of 251.3. This engine, when gearing is taken > into consideration, can generate an effective 328 ft.lbs of torque - a > noticeable improvement. > > This is why engines are rated mostly in HP. Torque is of course the most > important component in acceleration, but what RPM the torque is generated > at is just as important. HP is a better measurement of torque at RPM, > although of course a full printout of the torque curve is the best :} From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 14:57:49 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:57:49 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Hi CL, I've never messed with a snowmobile, being from Houston, Texas n all... What, may I ask, is a two stage helix, and HOW can a snowmobile hold the rpm's like that? What's the technology involved! Very interested in this... Thanks! Todd....!! CLsnyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary Derian > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 6:52 PM > Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model > > > If one has a sliding clutch, it should be set to hold the engine at max > > torque rpm, not max power rpm. > > Gary Derian > > > > > > The rpm's aren't held constant unless you have some sorta newfangled > > > clutch setup like the top fuelers have that hold their rpm's at PEAK > > > power the whole run! THAT would be nice!! > > > > >On a snowmobile it holds at max HP rpm at wide open throttle. With a 2 > stage helix it can hold max torque atpart throttle. > > > > From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 21 15:29:43 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:29:43 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all > together due to not having a need for em anymore! > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically isolated from the heads > fairly wasily with nonconductive head gaskets, etc... Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, water in the cooling jacket is conductive etc... It's basically an impossibility. From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Fri May 21 16:03:21 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:03:21 -0400 Subject: Clues Needed Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Being new to the scope world, and after reading a scope manual, I'm still at > a lose, and hope someone could clear these meanings up for me. > When using the triggering mode selection there are these options. > Auto It may mean that the scope triggers constantly, ie as soon as it finishes drawing a trace it immediately draws another. Or it may look at the current signal and auto generate a level and slope trigger for it. Some HP scopes do that, in addition to setting the time base and vertical scale automatically. > + Internal > - Internal This setting means that the signal you are looking at generates a trigger. There should also be a level setting associated with these. The level is specified in volts. When the signal that your probe is connected is at that voltage then the scope triggers and generates a waveform. +/- sets the slope of the trigger. If it's set to + the scope triggers when the waveform rises through the trigger voltage. If it's -, it triggers as the voltage falls through the trigger voltage. > +External > -External Probably means that there is a probe connection that can be used to trigger the scope only. +/- and level are same as for internal, but the waveform on the external trigger can't be viewed. You could, for example, put the external trigger on the tach signal and use the other channels to observe spark traces. > Auto-seems to mean that the pulses are displayed as they occur, and the > trigger > sense lead need not be connected. > ALSO, for these 4 other options where would one hook the sense lead to. > Any help here appreciated. > Bruce > Happy used to, really chase the skirts. > But, having visited Scotland last weekend, has left him confused...... -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Fri May 21 16:03:56 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:03:56 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > > I suppose they do! But aren't elephants scared of > mice? > > Andy > Common misconception, the elephants are just trying to stomp on the rodents, not dancing around scared. To eliminate this image Doctors at mopar genetically engineered a new animal. It is one that swallows rodents whole rather than squashing them. They called the new animal a Viper. Bill Edgeworth From realsquash at yahoo.com Fri May 21 16:06:30 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:06:30 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: --- "Todd....!!" wrote: > Hey Gary, > > More actual TOTAL POWER is produced under the power > curve, I believe, > where the Torque curve meets the HP curve... Ya > think? I don't know, but don't hp and torque curves always cross at 5252 RPM? How would that work on any engine that has a peak HP over 5252 RPM? _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 21 16:11:27 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:11:27 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, water in the cooling jacket is > conductive etc... > It's basically an impossibility. At this moment in time, yes. However, with composites coming into the market over the next several years, its theoretically possible to have non ferrous heads, blocks and fasteners. And the coolant being conductive is merely a chemical issue. Give it a few years :) -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 21 16:20:54 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:20:54 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: > I don't know, but don't hp and torque curves always > cross at 5252 RPM? How would that work on any engine > that has a peak HP over 5252 RPM? Yes they do... Just means that as the Torque and HP cross at 5252, the HP is rising and the torque is falling. they don't stay the same above 5252. From fluffy at snurgle.org Fri May 21 16:53:24 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:53:24 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: On Thu, 20 May 1999, Christopher J Beasley wrote: > Do I have to take over ignition as well? What's the cost/benefit of > this integration? I already know that this particular engine lacks a > rev limiter so I'd want to incorporate that feature. It is possible to use a regular distributor (or whatever you've got on a single-cylinder engine) in conjunction with a fuel computer. It is also possible to build in a rev limiter with the fuel computer by cutting fuel, instead of spark, when you hit the rev limit. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 21 17:15:35 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:15:35 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: > It is possible to use a regular distributor (or whatever you've got on a > single-cylinder engine) in conjunction with a fuel computer. It is also > possible to build in a rev limiter with the fuel computer by cutting fuel, > instead of spark, when you hit the rev limit. It would be my preference to cut spark rather than fuel, simply because cutting fuel would result in a lean condition at higher RPMs and possibly cause detonation. No spark results in fuel cooling off the combustion chamber while you're above the RPM limit, but I know there are other factors (unburnt fuel into the cats, etc). Just a thought. -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 21 17:33:30 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:33:30 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: > It would be my preference to cut spark rather than fuel, simply > because cutting fuel would result in a lean condition at higher RPMs > and possibly cause detonation. No spark results in fuel cooling off > the combustion chamber while you're above the RPM limit, but I know > there are other factors (unburnt fuel into the cats, etc). Eww... Cutting fuel, since it sn't reducing it, but turning it off completely, wouldn't make a lean condition... Cutting spark, cats or not, may cause more problems, as raw fuel into the exhaust makes a rather spectacular explosion! I blew a pair of Hemi mufflers off a 68 Pontiac Bonneville... Turned the key off for about 2 secs while under way at 70MPH and when I cut the key back on it blew the exhaust system apart! Scared the hell out of me! From chris_beasley at mindspring.com Fri May 21 17:42:39 1999 From: chris_beasley at mindspring.com (Christopher J Beasley) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:42:39 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Gary Derian wrote: > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can think > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making a 3 > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich PE. > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, air filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to compensate and I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications like this. > > > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark > timing. Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to take over triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? Thanks! Beez From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Fri May 21 18:00:23 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:00:23 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Christopher J Beasley wrote: > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow > > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can think > > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup > > Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? Alpha-N is the simplest FI possible using only throttle position (alpha) and engine RPM (N). > > > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you > > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making a 3 > > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich PE. > > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. > > What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike > applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, air > filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to compensate and > I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications like > this. PE=power enrich, more fuel when you stomp the pedal, er, twist the handle. --steve > > > > > > > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition > > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark > > timing. > > Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to take over > triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? > Thanks! > Beez -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 18:00:51 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:00:51 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Gary what's a CVT...? ALSO a TOP FUEL dragster is still traction limited, doesn't have more than one gear, and the clutch slides the entire run... LATER! Todd....!! ------ Gary Derian wrote: > > I race go-karts which use centrifugal clutches so I have done some thinking > here. If you change your gears, you have changed your top speed at max rpm. > If you are pulling stumps, use as low a gear as you can but still set the > clutch stall at max torque. > > For a drag racer, not traction limited, you need to maximize the "power > under the curve" for the 1/4 mile and must choose a gear that does this > without blowing up the engine before the traps. Once you are close on a > gear, the clutch setting can be calculated. Since a sliding clutch > transmits all the torque input (there is no where else for it to go) and > converts power into heat, it stands to reason the more torque input, the > more torque output. Therefore set the stall to the max torque rpm. If you > want to change your gearing, you still must set the stall to the max torque > rpm. > > For a drag run with a sliding clutch (again, not traction limited), start > out at max torque rpm while the clutch is sliding, as speed builds up, the > clutch will lock up and rpm increase to max power rpm and beyond. At this > point, you can shift gears if you have them. One would hit the traps at an > rpm between max power and the rev limit. > > This is only for a sliding clutch or fluid coupling. A snowmobile uses a > CVT so does not absorb power. For this case, operating the engine at max > power rpm will be faster. A torque converter multiplies torque and absorbs > some power so it operates somewhere in between. > > Gary Derian > > > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > > > > > If one has a sliding clutch, it should be set to hold the engine at max > > > torque rpm, not max power rpm. > > > > I disagree, because of the effects of gearing. > > > > A hypothetical engine makes 300 ft.lbs at its torque peak of 4000 RPM. > > At that RPM it makes 228.5 HP. > > > > Let's say it makes 201.3 ft.lbs at its HP peak of 6000 RPM. At that RPM > > it makes 230 HP. This is an engine that could probably use a new cam. :} > > > > Even so, once gearing is taken into consideration, it is better to use the > > HP peak. You can have a 33% lower gear ratio at the higher RPM, which - > > more or less by definition - outweighs the decrease in torque at the HP > > peak. Once we gear this engine down by 1/3 it makes the same 300 ft.lbs > > of torque that it did at its torque peak. > > > > But let's say we have an engine that doesn't have its torque fall off so > > badly. Let's say, instead, the engine makes 220 ft.lbs at 6000 RPM, > > instead, for an HP rating of 251.3. This engine, when gearing is taken > > into consideration, can generate an effective 328 ft.lbs of torque - a > > noticeable improvement. > > > > This is why engines are rated mostly in HP. Torque is of course the most > > important component in acceleration, but what RPM the torque is generated > > at is just as important. HP is a better measurement of torque at RPM, > > although of course a full printout of the torque curve is the best :} From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 18:00:57 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:00:57 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: C'mon David...., They used to think it was impossible to travel to the moon, much less mars.... we've done it... They used to think a 4 minute mile was impossible... Done As well as a sub 4 second 1/4 run outof a piston engined dragster... Done etc, etc... Just as a thought, if your believe the limitation of runnin a non spark plug engine using the block and head as the anode and ground instead of a spark plug is because of the bolts and the water between em creating a connection, then we must insulate em, maybe even run two seperated(isolated) radiators, one for the head, one for the block... As for the bolts, use isolated anchors within the block or merely secure the heads onto the block via some sortof external mechanism...(like a vice) Most obstacles are easily overcome, if ya think the 'right' way.... Anything else? LATER! Todd....!! David A. Cooley wrote: > > > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and > > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all > > together due to not having a need for em anymore! > > > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically isolated from the heads > > fairly wasily with nonconductive head gaskets, etc... > > Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, water in the cooling jacket is > conductive etc... > It's basically an impossibility. From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 18:00:59 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:00:59 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Squash, Ya just HAD to make me go and look at a bunch of different tq/hp graphs, didn't ya! Will research a bit and let ya know, someone in here probably already knows... LATER! Todd....!! Squash wrote: > > --- "Todd....!!" wrote: > > Hey Gary, > > > > More actual TOTAL POWER is produced under the power > > curve, I believe, > > where the Torque curve meets the HP curve... Ya > > think? > > I don't know, but don't hp and torque curves always > cross at 5252 RPM? How would that work on any engine > that has a peak HP over 5252 RPM? > > _____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 21 18:11:09 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:11:09 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Alpha-N means the EFI just uses Throttle Posistion, and rpm to figure fuel and/or timing. PE is Power enrichment. Self tuning is a dream for really high performance. There is no way to optimize tuning other than by testing. Self compensating for slight changes, maybe.. If you change the volumetic effeciency, the you'll have to test to find best Air Fuel Ratio, and to be best, would also, be optimizing timing. "Self-Tunig", is a buzz word. Compensating does exist in the world as we know it. Self Tuning was done by the Cutler EFI Co., in FL. But, they are out of business as far as I know. The problem was loading the engine down long enough at one time for the computer to learn things. Talked with a guy who had done several of the installations, and after 4, he was finished trying. Took many hours on dyno, and 2 applications were boats. Not enough waterway for unlimited WOT testing. Single cylinder closed loop might be a real challenge. The time from cycle to cycle is so long.. To get any averages you'd be using waiting days for when to apply the correction, unless you go event by event and at low rpm you might wind up with stalling before an odd event is averaged out. Singles can be very erratic at idle, from what Cub work i did years ago. A basic Alpha-N, with barometric, and Intake air Temp compensation would be about as sweet and complex as I'd think would be practicle. Probably best to use a "fixed" pullse at idle (other than for the above corrections), and some pots for accleration, transistion (accleration, and decleration), and WOT tuning. Might use a WB O2 for just seeing where you are, rather than close looping it. Just my 02 cents Grumpy | > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow | > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can think | > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup | Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? | > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you | > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making a 3 | > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich PE. | > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. | What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike | applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, air | filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to compensate and | I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications like | this. | > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition | > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark | > timing. | Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to take over | triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? | Thanks! | Beez From synchris at ricochet.net Fri May 21 18:14:06 1999 From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:14:06 -0400 Subject: more O2 sensor BS Message-ID: Because I can't resist putting my $0.05 worth of confounding info into the fray, here it is. Yes most of this is just me BSing so the rigorous in the audience might feel free to delete already. >Nominal volts: ~-40mv in free air, returned to this >after each test by fanning above can with piece of paper. This is probably just the thermocouple voltage from the cell being heated. It's in the right range anyway for ~800+C and some rough average thermocouple outputs. The first thing is that the cell probably develops a voltage due to more than one reaction, or could do so. If it does have a platinum/platinized electrode, why couldn't it act as a fuel cell and oxidize stuff (HC included) to produce some voltage? This would give a voltage dependent on redox potential, sort of, and might explain some of the confusing results. Note that I'm not saying "it senses HC", I'm saying it might sense an oxidation potential gradient acoss the sensor membrane. HC on one side and O2 on the other could cause this, but other things could too. Has anyone flooded both sides of a warm sensor with a small HC (methane or acetylene)? I bet you get ~40mv, i.e. no output. Also the size of the HC most likely makes a big difference. In the exhaust stream you're looking at lots of small HC and alcohols, ketones, etc which might be more likely to participate in a membrane-located oxidation process. In my mind a good first test would be to use nitrogen (air minus all oxygen) on one side or the other of the cell. I think this will tell you if the sensor responds to an oxygen gradient, without any other confouding HC, CFCs, etc. The argon test is close to this but not quite there. Also Bruce's test with pure O2 vs. air (if I understood how he ran the test) suggests that the sensor might not respond much to just an O2 gradient. (A partial response, yielding a different voltage or lower current output at the same voltage, is a possibility, I think.) Ok my producer is signalling me to wrap, so here goes: >Thinking about this, it makes sense. Once you reach stoich (450mv), >how can you go higher? Only if the excess hc takes it there... First do we at least agree that the O2 sensor does basically *work*? That it does sense something, and lets you measure rich vs. lean, if not very precisely? Given that... My guess is the sensor responds to O2 partial pressure gradients (as claimed), with a medium to low sensitivity. I don't know if it also responds (with a higher sensitivity) to O2/HC redox directly (a la fuel cells), or if the presence of small HC on a hot (possibly platinized) surface is just very good at creating a bigger O2 gradient by consuming O2. This would allow response on both sides of stoich; on the lean side there is excess O2, up to the amount found in air, which lowers the O2 gradient and the output voltage. (Also in the case of rich misfire, where the HC is mostly uncracked larger HC stuff, which I'm guessing is too large and slow burning in this situation to consume as much O2. Remember where I said size might matter? ;) On the rich side there is spare HC (small HC residues) to sop up extra O2, and create more of an O2 gradient than just N2 + H2O + CO2 (which is what you would get at stoich, in theoory) would. So there you go, fwiw. ---Chris C. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 21 18:59:14 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:59:14 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: > Gary what's a CVT...? Constantly Variable Transmission, whereas the engine maintains an RPM in its optimal torque curve, and the transmission, via a belt of some sort, adjusts the axle speed. This is typically done with two interlaced pulley halves that mate together. The closer the pulley halves are together, the larger diameter the pulley is. The reverse would also be true, whereas the pulley halves pulling apart would yield a smaller pulley diameter. Works great in go-karts, and been used for years. Some of the carm manufacturers have been making units for electric powered cars, and nowadays even small gas engine powered cars. Problem has been (to date) belt tearing under high power applications. > ALSO a TOP FUEL dragster is still traction limited, doesn't have more > than one gear, and the clutch slides the entire run... Our funny car has *no* gears. Engine, flywheel, clutch, giant lubricated spherical bearing, driveshaft. We worship our SFI rated bellhousing :) -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From pford at qnx.com Fri May 21 19:04:45 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:04:45 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Previously, you (Todd....!!) wrote: > C'mon David...., > > They used to think it was impossible to travel to the moon, much less > mars.... we've done it... > > They used to think a 4 minute mile was impossible... Done > > As well as a sub 4 second 1/4 run outof a piston engined dragster... > Done > snip > > As for the bolts, use isolated anchors within the block or merely secure > the heads onto the block via some sortof external mechanism...(like a > vice) > > Most obstacles are easily overcome, if ya think the 'right' way.... why not have a spark plug with a very long nose and no side electrode ie the nose clears the threaded part by .5" to .75" and sparks to the piston due to proximity a problem I could see is the oil insulating the return path > > Anything else? > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > > David A. Cooley wrote: > > > > > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and > > > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all > > > together due to not having a need for em anymore! > > > > > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically isolated from the heads > > > fairly wasily with nonconductive head gaskets, etc... > > > > Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, water in the cooling jacket is > > conductive etc... > > It's basically an impossibility. > > -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From aaronc at rsacom.com Fri May 21 19:32:49 1999 From: aaronc at rsacom.com (Chew, Aaron) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:32:49 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Alpha-n is a throttle-position and rpm fuel map control strategy. -----Original Message----- From: Christopher J Beasley [mailto:chris_beasley at mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 1:43 PM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions Gary Derian wrote: > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can think > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making a 3 > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich PE. > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, air filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to compensate and I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications like this. > > > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark > timing. Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to take over triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? Thanks! Beez From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 21 19:35:34 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:35:34 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: | > They used to think it was impossible to travel to the moon, much less | > mars.... we've done it... Depends on if you beleive the news. | > They used to think a 4 minute mile was impossible... Done | > As well as a sub 4 second 1/4 run outof a piston engined dragster... | > Done Hear of sub 5, but not sub 4. Wouldn't sub 4 mean 3.xx | snip | > Most obstacles are easily overcome, if ya think the 'right' way.... Cold Fusion. | why not have a spark plug with a very long nose and no side electrode Saab done it already, trouble was erosion at top of ring pattern when spark occured. Grumpy | ie | the nose clears the threaded part by .5" to .75" and sparks to the | piston due to proximity | a problem I could see is the oil insulating the return path | > Anything else? | > LATER! | > Todd....!! | > David A. Cooley wrote: | > > > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and | > > > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all | > > > together due to not having a need for em anymore! | > > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically isolated from the heads | > > > fairly wasily with nonconductive head gaskets, etc... | > > Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, water in the cooling jacket is | > > conductive etc... | > > It's basically an impossibility. | Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com From ord at aei.ca Fri May 21 19:38:28 1999 From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:38:28 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: HP = TQ * RPM / 5252 (When TQ in lb-ft) So crossing at 5252 isn't really a surprise... -----Original Message----- From: Todd....!! To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 3:55 PM Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model >Squash, > >Ya just HAD to make me go and look at a bunch of different tq/hp graphs, >didn't ya! > >Will research a bit and let ya know, someone in here probably already >knows... > >LATER! > >Todd....!! > >Squash wrote: >> >> --- "Todd....!!" wrote: >> > Hey Gary, >> > >> > More actual TOTAL POWER is produced under the power >> > curve, I believe, >> > where the Torque curve meets the HP curve... Ya >> > think? >> >> I don't know, but don't hp and torque curves always >> cross at 5252 RPM? How would that work on any engine >> that has a peak HP over 5252 RPM? >> >> _____________________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com > > From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Fri May 21 20:40:15 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:40:15 -0400 Subject: More Lists Message-ID: IATN has a mail list and web forums http://www.iatn.net I have not seen anything for internal repairs. alex > Hi folks > Would anyone have more mailing lists to recommend? > While I enjoy this list about 98% of this I dont understand and I am > looking for something still to do with engine management systems > but maybe closer related to the repair of these systems rather than > reprogramming > Cheers > Geoff > > > From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Fri May 21 20:40:46 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:40:46 -0400 Subject: Opel Omega Diagnostic Conector Message-ID: I was looking at a GM Tech-2 scan tool manual circa 1996 a few days ago. There were many optional adapters and languages including Opel. Also I recall adapter pin outs. I will check back in a few days. I have a OBD2 protocol GM tool that should work if you have pin 2 of a 16 pin D shaped connector under dash near stearing wheel. Also a ISO protocol if uses a pin 7 alex http://www.obd-2.com > Hi, > > I am "listening" this list for some time, since I bought EFI cars. > > I have two EFI cars, they are made in Brazil, by Chevrolet, following > the original design by Opel (Germany) (with some litle changes, maybe). > They are an Omega Sedan (1994) 2.0, and a Corsa (1998) 1.0. > > How I always make the services, only in my cars, by myself. I'm > searching for technical information about it (in portuguese, english, > french, spanish or italian; I don't understand anything in german). > > Specially about their EFI systems (Bosch Motronic, I think) and the > diagnostic conector. I am thinking about an interface to PC. > > I found a conector in the Omega, wich I think that is the diagnostic > conector, but it doesn't looks like an ALDL conector, in fact, I'm not > sure if that conector with 10 pins (2 lines of five pins), positioned in > the engine compartment, in a cable comming from the main cable of the > EFI system, is the diagnostic conector. > > So, my questions are; if there are anybody in the world who can answer > this. > > 1) where are the diagnostic conectors, in these two cars? > 2) what are their pin functions? > 3) what are the codes and the protocol to "talk" with the ECM? > > Thanx in advance > > Aron L. Petrucci > aron at inbrapenet.com.br > > Londrina - Pr > Brazil. > > > > > > > From fluffy at snurgle.org Fri May 21 20:42:35 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:42:35 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: On Fri, 21 May 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > It would be my preference to cut spark rather than fuel, simply > because cutting fuel would result in a lean condition at higher RPMs You'd think so, but many production rev limiters work this way. I know there's a reason for why they do it this way, but I cannot remember what it is. In any case, a fuel cut doesn't creat detonation provided you really cut the fuel off all at once. From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 20:53:07 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:53:07 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Good'n Bill, ouch... What new CAR is even SOLD with a Rat these dayzzzz.... Anything?... Just wonderinnnnnnn.........!!!! Todd....!! Bill Edgeworth wrote: > > > > > I suppose they do! But aren't elephants scared of > > mice? > > > > Andy > > > > Common misconception, the elephants are just trying to stomp on the > rodents, not dancing around scared. To eliminate this image Doctors at > mopar genetically engineered a new animal. It is one that swallows > rodents whole rather than squashing them. They called the new animal a > Viper. > > Bill Edgeworth From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 20:53:10 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:53:10 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: You're correct Fred, Didn't Popular Science already 'do' the plastic engine article quite a few years back(10-15 years ago?) I forgot about it... ALSO, thanks for the enlightment/distinction about the coolant merely being a chemical issue... GREAT point as well! LATER! Todd....!! =------- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, water in the cooling jacket is > > conductive etc... > > > It's basically an impossibility. > > At this moment in time, yes. However, with composites coming into the > market over the next several years, its theoretically possible to have > non ferrous heads, blocks and fasteners. And the coolant being > conductive is merely a chemical issue. > > Give it a few years :) > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 20:53:13 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:53:13 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Some kids in a big truck did that 'trick' to me back in the late 80's! But they didn't blow anything up, that I noticed anyways... Why not just cut BOTH Spark AND Fuel!!?? Teh bigshot dragsters cut only ignition and they seem to not have many probs....better than the alternative of NOT using ANY type of rev limiter, ey? KABOOOMMMMM.... LATER!! Todd....!! --------------- David A. Cooley wrote: > > > It would be my preference to cut spark rather than fuel, simply > > because cutting fuel would result in a lean condition at higher RPMs > > and possibly cause detonation. No spark results in fuel cooling off > > the combustion chamber while you're above the RPM limit, but I know > > there are other factors (unburnt fuel into the cats, etc). > > Eww... Cutting fuel, since it sn't reducing it, but turning it off > completely, wouldn't make a lean condition... > Cutting spark, cats or not, may cause more problems, as raw fuel into the > exhaust makes a rather spectacular explosion! > I blew a pair of Hemi mufflers off a 68 Pontiac Bonneville... Turned the key > off for about 2 secs while under way at 70MPH and when I cut the key back on > it blew the exhaust system apart! > Scared the hell out of me! From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 20:53:17 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:53:17 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: I call the no trans setup a direct drive setup, how bout you? Never actually driven a vehicle with it! COOL! LATER! Todd....!! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Gary what's a CVT...? > > Constantly Variable Transmission, whereas the engine maintains an RPM > in its optimal torque curve, and the transmission, via a belt of some > sort, adjusts the axle speed. This is typically done with two > interlaced pulley halves that mate together. The closer the pulley > halves are together, the larger diameter the pulley is. The reverse > would also be true, whereas the pulley halves pulling apart would > yield a smaller pulley diameter. Works great in go-karts, and been > used for years. Some of the carm manufacturers have been making units > for electric powered cars, and nowadays even small gas engine powered > cars. > > Problem has been (to date) belt tearing under high power applications. > > > ALSO a TOP FUEL dragster is still traction limited, doesn't have more > > than one gear, and the clutch slides the entire run... > > Our funny car has *no* gears. Engine, flywheel, clutch, giant > lubricated spherical bearing, driveshaft. > > We worship our SFI rated bellhousing :) > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 21 20:57:15 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:57:15 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: WOW PAT! GREAT IDEA! Will research... May I patent this if it all works out? Spark gap should be set at .065, right? I DID do a quick experiment with what would happen to a spark plugs spark if the grond electrode was cut totally off flush with the rest of the threads... I heard this is what the drag racers do... The spark this setup produces is HUGE! Anyone every try it? Do it and see, you'll be amazed! I would have to see how this setup sparks under at least 200 lbs. of pressure of air n fuel to see if it's truly beneficial under real world conditions n all... Thanks again for the idea(s) mang! LATER! Todd....!! Pat Ford wrote: > > Previously, you (Todd....!!) wrote: > > C'mon David...., > > > > They used to think it was impossible to travel to the moon, much less > > mars.... we've done it... > > > > They used to think a 4 minute mile was impossible... Done > > > > As well as a sub 4 second 1/4 run outof a piston engined dragster... > > Done > > > > snip > > > > > As for the bolts, use isolated anchors within the block or merely secure > > the heads onto the block via some sortof external mechanism...(like a > > vice) > > > > Most obstacles are easily overcome, if ya think the 'right' way.... > > why not have a spark plug with a very long nose and no side electrode > > ie > the nose clears the threaded part by .5" to .75" and sparks to the > piston due to proximity > > a problem I could see is the oil insulating the return path > > > > > Anything else? > > > > LATER! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > David A. Cooley wrote: > > > > > > > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and > > > > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all > > > > together due to not having a need for em anymore! > > > > > > > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically isolated from the heads > > > > fairly wasily with nonconductive head gaskets, etc... > > > > > > Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, water in the cooling jacket is > > > conductive etc... > > > It's basically an impossibility. > > > > > > -- > Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com > QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews > (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 21 21:01:26 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:01:26 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: At 02:28 PM 5/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >Good'n Bill, ouch... > >What new CAR is even SOLD with a Rat these dayzzzz.... Anything?... > >Just wonderinnnnnnn.........!!!! Suburban's, pickups, tahoe's etc... =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 21 21:02:28 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:02:28 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: > I call the no trans setup a direct drive setup, how bout you? Works for me. > > Never actually driven a vehicle with it! From senator at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri May 21 21:31:21 1999 From: senator at ugcs.caltech.edu (Bill Bradley) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:31:21 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: > > I don't know, but don't hp and torque curves always > > cross at 5252 RPM? How would that work on any engine > > that has a peak HP over 5252 RPM? > > Yes they do... Just means that as the Torque and HP cross at 5252, the HP is > rising and the torque is falling. > they don't stay the same above 5252. Wrong. The torque curve could very easily be rising, HP=torque(lb*ft)*rpm/5252. They always cross there. As far as the Max torque vs. Max Hp issue. Torque =Force x radius so the maximum force accelerating the car is directly proportional to the maximum torque. Power=Work/time, but it also equals Force*velocity, so the maximum force at any given speed is at maximum horsepower (the gearing is irrelevant) So for maximum acceleration you want the revs to be at peak hp. For those of us with normal transmissions, the usable power curve is more important than peak, which is where the maximum torque is a factor. Bill From gderian at oh.verio.com Fri May 21 21:33:11 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:33:11 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Saab has already shown an engine where they run the spark from the plug to the piston. Gary Derian > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all > together due to not having a need for em anymore! > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically isolated from the heads > fairly wasily with nonconductive head gaskets, etc... From gderian at oh.verio.com Fri May 21 21:33:12 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:33:12 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: CVT is continuously variable transmission. If you are traction limited, your control scheme becomes keep the tires at the hairy edge all the way down. This would be trivial if NHRA would allow traction control. Gary Derian > Gary what's a CVT...? > > ALSO a TOP FUEL dragster is still traction limited, doesn't have more > than one gear, and the clutch slides the entire run... > > LATER! > > Todd....!! From gderian at oh.verio.com Fri May 21 21:33:12 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:33:12 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Power in horsepower and torque in ft-lb always have the same value at 5252 rpm. That is because a horsepower is defined as 33,000 ft-lb per minute and to go from linear to rotary we have to divide by 2 pi. The result is 5252.1131002 yadda yadda Power in kW and torque in Nm would cross over at some other rpm. To maximize power under the curve, you have to operate your engine so the average hp is as high as possible. This means revving past the hp peak to a point that after you shift, the engine has the same power but on the rising side of the curve than before you shifted. Because rotational inertia has less effect in higher gears, it is better to shift a little sooner than this. Gary Derian > --- "Todd....!!" wrote: > > Hey Gary, > > > > More actual TOTAL POWER is produced under the power > > curve, I believe, > > where the Torque curve meets the HP curve... Ya > > think? > > I don't know, but don't hp and torque curves always > cross at 5252 RPM? How would that work on any engine > that has a peak HP over 5252 RPM? > > _____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Fri May 21 21:39:27 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:39:27 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: "Todd....!!" wrote: > Good'n Bill, ouch... > > What new CAR is even SOLD with a Rat these dayzzzz.... Anything?... > > Just wonderinnnnnnn.........!!!! > > Todd....!! > No cars that I know of but an option for Pick up trucks. Bill Edgeworth From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 21 22:27:03 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:27:03 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: At 02:31 PM 5/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >> > I don't know, but don't hp and torque curves always >> > cross at 5252 RPM? How would that work on any engine >> > that has a peak HP over 5252 RPM? >> >> Yes they do... Just means that as the Torque and HP cross at 5252, the HP is >> rising and the torque is falling. >> they don't stay the same above 5252. > > Wrong. The torque curve could very easily be rising, >HP=torque(lb*ft)*rpm/5252. They always cross there. My answer was for if the HP peak was over 5252 RPM... Even if the torque was still rising, the HP would be rising at a greater rate and they would not stay the same after 5252 RPM =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com Fri May 21 23:00:33 1999 From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:00:33 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: The main fear if you cut the ignition is that the fuel will build up in the intake manifold or mufflers, when you switch the ignition back on... BOOM there goes the intake or muffler. > -----Original Message----- > From: William T Wilson [SMTP:fluffy at snurgle.org] > Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 3:41 PM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions > > On Fri, 21 May 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > It would be my preference to cut spark rather than fuel, simply > > because cutting fuel would result in a lean condition at higher RPMs > > You'd think so, but many production rev limiters work this way. I know > there's a reason for why they do it this way, but I cannot remember what > it is. > > In any case, a fuel cut doesn't creat detonation provided you really cut > the fuel off all at once. From AL8001 at aol.com Fri May 21 23:08:54 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:08:54 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: In a message dated 99-05-21 16:57:28 EDT, atc347 at c-com.net writes: >You're correct Fred, > >Didn't Popular Science already 'do' the plastic engine article quite a >few years back(10-15 years ago?) > >I forgot about it... > > Yes, it was based on the Ford 2.3L 4 Cyl engine. It was also raced for a time in IMSA in a GTU car. Harold From ECMnut at aol.com Fri May 21 23:15:27 1999 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:15:27 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model, top fuel Message-ID: Man, I AM a fossil... When did they scrap the 2 speed lenco? MV > > ALSO a TOP FUEL dragster is still traction limited, doesn't have more > than one gear, and the clutch slides the entire run... > From ECMnut at aol.com Fri May 21 23:31:23 1999 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:31:23 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Hi Frederic, I gotta agree. The GMC Syclone has a 4600 RPM fuel cut from the factory. When ya hit it, it bucks like a bull, as fuel is turned off, then back on, and there is definitely detonation when this occurs under boost. I've heard all the theories about turning the fuel off then back on, but they don't seem to apply with 16psi of boost.. There is *significant* detonation as the injectors come back on.. It's not pretty. It would be good if they'd kill both spark & fuel Mike V > It would be my preference to cut spark rather than fuel, simply > because cutting fuel would result in a lean condition at higher RPMs > and possibly cause detonation. No spark results in fuel cooling off > the combustion chamber while you're above the RPM limit, but I know > there are other factors (unburnt fuel into the cats, etc). From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 21 23:49:53 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:49:53 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model, top fuel Message-ID: When that guy from the Eagles sang with that other group.. Hohoho Doc | Man, I AM a fossil... | When did they scrap the 2 speed lenco? | MV | > ALSO a TOP FUEL dragster is still traction limited, doesn't have more | > than one gear, and the clutch slides the entire run... From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 21 23:53:35 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:53:35 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > Would your FI setup for the 440 intake bolt onto the 426 Hemi's intake? > (i.e. are the runners located in the same position? I know the intake > bolts are verticle on the hemi vs. the 440 has the angled intake bolts, > but other than that, I've never noticed any diff? I don't think they line up... I remember reading something about lack of intakes that mate with hemi heads on a wedge block... But I'm often wrong. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 21 23:54:50 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:54:50 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > Actually, the plug location in a Hemi is bad because it is off to one side. > Its the best you can do with a Hemi but its still bad. As a result it needs >From what I've read a not so uncommon mod for all out racing is to drill and tap another spark plug hole... but I've not found anything on the net about it. Someone who was slightly intoxicated mentioned this to me in a bar a year or so ago. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 21 23:56:21 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:56:21 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > block (383-400) has smaller mains and you cannot use the Hemi crank without > cutting down the mains. This is actually what I did with my 440 wedge steel crank into the 383 block.. instead of boring out the mains I had the crank turned... a mere $125 bucks. Not too bad, and because you're taking off a lot of material, even a scoured/scratched crank (which is cheap!) can suddenly become a good core crank for the project. As long as it passes magnafluxing, it should be okay. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 21 23:58:00 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:58:00 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > You're correct Fred, My, how rare :) > Didn't Popular Science already 'do' the plastic engine article quite a > few years back(10-15 years ago?) Might have, I don't read that magazine all that often... just occasionally in line at the supermarket while getting yet more cat litter. > ALSO, thanks for the enlightment/distinction about the coolant merely > being a chemical issue... GREAT point as well! I'm actually waiting patiently for ceramics and composites to become "regular". Most of these materials don't retain or reflect heat as well as aluminum/iron/steel, and certainly weight a lot less. Less heat retention = less detonation = more boost :) From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 21 23:58:57 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:58:57 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model, top fuel Message-ID: > Man, I AM a fossil... > When did they scrap the 2 speed lenco? Different classes allow different things. Lenco's are good units, but if the class allows less parts to break, you have less to go wrong. From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 22 00:03:39 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:03:39 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: | Hi Frederic, | I gotta agree. The GMC Syclone has a 4600 RPM fuel cut from the | factory. When ya hit it, it bucks like a bull, as fuel is turned off, then | back on, and there is definitely detonation when this occurs under | boost. I've heard all the theories about turning the fuel off | then back on, but they don't seem to apply with 16psi of boost.. | There is *significant* detonation as the injectors come back on.. | It's not pretty. It would be good if they'd kill both spark & fuel Ya, but look at the drivetrain inertia your taking about. Your syclone with it's 4WD is over twice as much as any other vehicle so when it drops off, and back on it is violent, and would be under any strategy, IMHO. Probably a Saab ATP (?) Running a boost cutoff, overspeed management, and then a fuel cut.. Don't let things turn back on at 16 PSI of boost. Also, depends on driver. Hitting a fuel stop in a drag car can mean something failed, and the run should be aborted. So the driver ends the run by lifting, rather than keeping his foot in it. I wouldn't use it a signal to shift or to flat foot thur it (not lifting). Grumpy | Mike V | > It would be my preference to cut spark rather than fuel, simply | > because cutting fuel would result in a lean condition at higher RPMs | > and possibly cause detonation. No spark results in fuel cooling off | > the combustion chamber while you're above the RPM limit, but I know | > there are other factors (unburnt fuel into the cats, etc). From quest100 at gte.net Sat May 22 00:08:31 1999 From: quest100 at gte.net (Fran and Bud) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:08:31 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: EFI Trivia FWIW Cutler (who won one of the early magazine EFI Shootouts) was bought by Hi Rel a year or two ago. Hi Rel was bought by Holley within the last year. When I bought my Cutler manifold, they were only making stuff for boats. I was told that the self learn capability required a lot of time at each specific load condition and boats were closer to that than cars. Cars with a duty cycle of start, accelerate, shift. shift, shift, backoff stop, etc. didn't provide a chance for the system to learn and I was told that a later version of the system would again address cars - I dont think it ever happened before Cutler was sold. Thats why I'm blending a 7727 with my Cutler and other PFI parts. Bud ---------- >From: "Bruce Plecan" >To: >Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions >Date: Fri, May 21, 1999, 11:11 AM > > >Alpha-N means the EFI just uses Throttle Posistion, and rpm to figure fuel >and/or timing. > PE is Power enrichment. > Self tuning is a dream for really high performance. There is no way to >optimize tuning other than by testing. Self compensating for slight >changes, maybe.. If you change the volumetic effeciency, the you'll have to >test to find best Air Fuel Ratio, and to be best, would also, be optimizing >timing. > "Self-Tunig", is a buzz word. Compensating does exist in the world as we >know it. > Self Tuning was done by the Cutler EFI Co., in FL. But, they are out of >business as far as I know. The problem was loading the engine down long >enough at one time for the computer to learn things. Talked with a guy who >had done several of the installations, and after 4, he was finished trying. >Took many hours on dyno, and 2 applications were boats. Not enough waterway >for unlimited WOT testing. > Single cylinder closed loop might be a real challenge. The time from >cycle to cycle is so long.. To get any averages you'd be using waiting days >for when to apply the correction, unless you go event by event and at low >rpm you might wind up with stalling before an odd event is averaged out. >Singles can be very erratic at idle, from what Cub work i did years ago. > A basic Alpha-N, with barometric, and Intake air Temp compensation would >be about as sweet and complex as I'd think would be practicle. > Probably best to use a "fixed" pullse at idle (other than for the above >corrections), and some pots for accleration, transistion (accleration, and >decleration), and WOT tuning. > Might use a WB O2 for just seeing where you are, rather than close looping >it. >Just my 02 cents >Grumpy > >| > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow >| > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can >think >| > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup >| Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? >| > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you >| > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making >a 3 >| > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich >PE. >| > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. >| What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike >| applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, >air >| filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to compensate >and >| I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications >like >| this. >| > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition >| > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark >| > timing. >| Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to take >over >| triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? >| Thanks! >| Beez > > From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sat May 22 00:21:43 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:21:43 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: On Fri, 21 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all > together due to not having a need for em anymore! > SAAB did this a while ago...there was a picture[s] in SAE Engineering last year. From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Sat May 22 00:24:37 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:24:37 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > > > > >Didn't Popular Science already 'do' the plastic engine article quite a > >few years back(10-15 years ago?) > > I seem to recall an article in Plastics Engineering a number of years ago where a cart team was testing carbon fiber connecting rods. And maybe in the same issue ceramic topped plastic pistons were also being researched. Bill Edgeworth From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sat May 22 00:24:46 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:24:46 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: On Fri, 21 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > Are ya sure that the cranks don't interchange? > > What's the diff? Besides the Hemi having 8 flywheel bolt holes vs the > 440/383's 6 flywheel bolt holes > > Are the main journals a different size? or the rod journals? what? > > The stroke is 3.75, same as a 440... > They will fit. the counterweights are different, of course. > And as for the caps, jsut cuz there's an extra bolt hole in the main > caps for the cross bolt, does that mean ya still can't use em in the > 440? You could use them, too. Most of them were malleable iron. There is no provision in the regular B block for the cross bolts... From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 22 00:46:03 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:46:03 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Gee, maybe Holley has something in the works I hadn't heard about their Cutler tie...... Doc | EFI Trivia FWIW | Cutler (who won one of the early magazine EFI Shootouts) was bought by Hi | Rel a year or two ago. | Hi Rel was bought by Holley within the last year. | When I bought my Cutler manifold, they were only making stuff for boats. | I was told that the self learn capability required a lot of time at each | specific load condition and boats were closer to that than cars. Cars with | a duty cycle of start, accelerate, shift. shift, shift, backoff stop, etc. | didn't provide a chance for the system to learn and I was told that a later | version of the system would again address cars - I dont think it ever | happened before Cutler was sold. | Thats why I'm blending a 7727 with my Cutler and other PFI parts. | Bud | >From: "Bruce Plecan" | >Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions | >Alpha-N means the EFI just uses Throttle Posistion, and rpm to figure fuel | >and/or timing. | > PE is Power enrichment. | > Self tuning is a dream for really high performance. There is no way to | >optimize tuning other than by testing. Self compensating for slight | >changes, maybe.. If you change the volumetic effeciency, the you'll have to | >test to find best Air Fuel Ratio, and to be best, would also, be optimizing | >timing. | > "Self-Tunig", is a buzz word. Compensating does exist in the world as we | >know it. | > Self Tuning was done by the Cutler EFI Co., in FL. But, they are out of | >business as far as I know. The problem was loading the engine down long | >enough at one time for the computer to learn things. Talked with a guy who | >had done several of the installations, and after 4, he was finished trying. | >Took many hours on dyno, and 2 applications were boats. Not enough waterway | >for unlimited WOT testing. | > Single cylinder closed loop might be a real challenge. The time from | >cycle to cycle is so long.. To get any averages you'd be using waiting days | >for when to apply the correction, unless you go event by event and at low | >rpm you might wind up with stalling before an odd event is averaged out. | >Singles can be very erratic at idle, from what Cub work i did years ago. | > A basic Alpha-N, with barometric, and Intake air Temp compensation would | >be about as sweet and complex as I'd think would be practicle. | > Probably best to use a "fixed" pullse at idle (other than for the above | >corrections), and some pots for accleration, transistion (accleration, and | >decleration), and WOT tuning. | > Might use a WB O2 for just seeing where you are, rather than close looping | >it. | >Just my 02 cents | >Grumpy | >| > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow | >| > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can | >think | >| > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup | >| Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? | >| > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you | >| > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making | >a 3 | >| > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich | >PE. | >| > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. | >| What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike | >| applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, | >air | >| filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to compensate | >and | >| I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications | >like | >| this. | >| > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition | >| > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark | >| > timing. | >| Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to take | >over | >| triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? | >| Thanks! | >| Beez From kb4mxo at mwt.net Sat May 22 00:55:04 1999 From: kb4mxo at mwt.net (Steve Gorkowski) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:55:04 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: That was the trick we did in high school as the PE instructor was kicking back on the folding chair half sleeping. We didn't damage intake but the muffler split wide open. You have to let it cost a long time to get a big bang. Steve Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com wrote: > The main fear if you cut the ignition is that the fuel will build up in the > intake manifold or mufflers, when you switch the ignition back on... BOOM > there goes the intake or muffler. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: William T Wilson [SMTP:fluffy at snurgle.org] > > Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 3:41 PM > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions > > > > On Fri, 21 May 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > It would be my preference to cut spark rather than fuel, simply > > > because cutting fuel would result in a lean condition at higher RPMs > > > > You'd think so, but many production rev limiters work this way. I know > > there's a reason for why they do it this way, but I cannot remember what > > it is. > > > > In any case, a fuel cut doesn't creat detonation provided you really cut > > the fuel off all at once. From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Sat May 22 01:01:13 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:01:13 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Is this true of forced induction motors, two stroke motors etc.? I've seen this equation before but I've always assumed (Yeah I know, I know...) that it was for a 4 stroke normally aspirated motor. Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bradley To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 8:45 PM Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model > Wrong. The torque curve could very easily be rising, >HP=torque(lb*ft)*rpm/5252. They always cross there. > From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 22 01:45:15 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:45:15 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: I Is this true of forced induction motors, two stroke motors etc.? I've seen | this equation before but I've always assumed (Yeah I know, I know...) that | it was for a 4 stroke normally aspirated motor. Steam Engines Water wheels Electric Motors Grumpy | | Charles Brooks | | -----Original Message----- | From: Bill Bradley | To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 8:45 PM | Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model | | | | > Wrong. The torque curve could very easily be rising, | >HP=torque(lb*ft)*rpm/5252. They always cross there. | > | | From gderian at oh.verio.com Sat May 22 02:06:13 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:06:13 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: That was Polimotor. It used Torlon(R) for the block and heads but had steel lined combustion chamber, exhaust port and cylinder. Gary Derian > > >You're correct Fred, > > > >Didn't Popular Science already 'do' the plastic engine article quite a > >few years back(10-15 years ago?) > > > >I forgot about it... > > > > > Yes, it was based on the Ford 2.3L 4 Cyl engine. It was also raced for a > time in IMSA in a GTU car. > > Harold From gderian at oh.verio.com Sat May 22 02:06:14 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:06:14 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Engine research using ceramics is headed toward an adiabatic engine. That is one which needs no cooling system. This keeps the fire hotter during the power stroke since no heat is absorbed by a cooling system. I would think this would actually increase propensity for detonation. Gary Derian > > I'm actually waiting patiently for ceramics and composites to become > "regular". Most of these materials don't retain or reflect heat as well > as aluminum/iron/steel, and certainly weight a lot less. > > Less heat retention = less detonation = more boost :) From chris_beasley at mindspring.com Sat May 22 02:07:07 1999 From: chris_beasley at mindspring.com (Christopher J Beasley) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:07:07 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote:snip > | > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow > | > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can > thi Ok, what about putting the flow or pressure sensors on the intake of the airbox. Wouldn't that be effective in averaging out the flow?Beez From chris_beasley at mindspring.com Sat May 22 02:08:26 1999 From: chris_beasley at mindspring.com (Christopher J Beasley) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:08:26 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: So you can actually do OK just with those two things? Would it be as good as or better than a carb? b Chew, Aaron wrote: > Alpha-n is a throttle-position and rpm fuel map control strategy. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher J Beasley [mailto:chris_beasley at mindspring.com] > Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 1:43 PM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow > > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can think > > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup > > Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? > > > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you > > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making a > 3 > > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich PE. > > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. > > What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike > applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, air > filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to compensate > and > I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications like > this. > > > > > > > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition > > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark > > timing. > > Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to take > over > triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? > Thanks! > Beez From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 22 02:29:07 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:29:07 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: | Bruce Plecan wrote:snip | > | > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow | > | > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can | > thi | Ok, what about putting the flow or pressure sensors on the intake of the | airbox. Wouldn't that be effective in averaging out the flow?Beez Only if the air box was restictive enough to have a pressure drop at idle. But, that would have to be limiting WOT air flow. I'd really look to keep this very simple. You can always engineer more into it. But, to do alot of engineering, and then bypass alot of it seems like a shame, IMHO. Work on the air temp and barometic corrections for the transistions, and steady state conditions, then use a basic strategy, ie Alpha-N. Use a EGT for WOT, or a Wide Band O2 for monitoring AFR. Closed loop only if/when ya run out of other things to do. If you go thru the archives looking for tables, and maps you'll see you have enough of a chalenge. Grumpy From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 22 03:20:44 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:20:44 -0400 Subject: Message from CSH. HQ Message-ID: Well, since most of y'all, I'd call pals, and some friends, rather than forgeting someone, I'll let y'all know whats going on, and this has no EFI/automobile content. Anytime after Tuesday, CSH, HQ maybe closed for a while, from 1 week to 3 months, possibly longer. Lots of variables, but here are the biggies. I need some new parts, and, I have been accepted as being a good host. I'm waiting for a double lung transplant (monday is for final testing to see, if the heart will be done, also). I have a genetic condition called Alpha-1 Antitrysin Deficency, and the heart do to wear and tear from the work caused by the Alpha-1.. Also on Monday, I have a medical procedure to be done, and when the results are back from those I'll be leaving home, room available to be hospitialized for some extensive Physical Therapy, and the surgery, depending on the donor situation at that time. A couple folks have neighbor's phone number, and if anything major happens, y'all will hear about it. This may seem premature, but things have been a emotional roller coaster, and I wanted to write this, before being to wrapped up in things, or hurrying too much. I have checks out to all, that I have commitments with, so just ship things like normal, since things are not being abandened here. It will probably will be a week from Tues before much happens but, I was put on notice that the short term plans should be made for this, time table. Bruce From synchris at ricochet.net Sat May 22 03:26:10 1999 From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:26:10 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: At 10:05 PM 5/21/99 -0400, Gary Derian wrote: >Engine research using ceramics is headed toward an adiabatic engine. That >is one which needs no cooling system. This keeps the fire hotter during the >power stroke since no heat is absorbed by a cooling system. I would think >this would actually increase propensity for detonation. My *guess* is it's the other way around, at least in a 4 stroke. The inside of the combustion chamber will be hotter right after the burn than it would be in a metal engine, due to the lower heat capacity and higher thermal resistance. But by the same token, the incoming charge will be able to cool those same surfaces more than if they had a low thermal resistance path to a big mass of hot, high heat capacity metal. I know a couple of people have reported reduced detonation with some of the diy coatings. Has anyone had the opposite result? Chris C. From fluffy at snurgle.org Sat May 22 05:07:36 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 01:07:36 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: On Fri, 21 May 1999, C. Brooks wrote: > Is this true of forced induction motors, two stroke motors etc.? I've > seen this equation before but I've always assumed (Yeah I know, I > know...) that it was for a 4 stroke normally aspirated motor. It hasn't got anything to do with the type of engine, but is an artifact of the way torque and HP are calculated. The point where the curves cross will change, however, if you go from US-style measurements (HP and ft.lbs) to international/scientific measurements (watts and newton-meters). From fluffy at snurgle.org Sat May 22 05:12:37 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 01:12:37 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: On Fri, 21 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > Engine research using ceramics is headed toward an adiabatic engine. > That is one which needs no cooling system. This keeps the fire hotter > during the power stroke since no heat is absorbed by a cooling system. > I would think this would actually increase propensity for detonation. It doesn't, necessarily, because the nice thing about an adiabatic engine is that having a hot fire during the power stroke hasn't got anything to do with the temperature inside the cylider during the intake/compression stroke. If the engine needs no cooling system, then that means that heat isn't building up inside it (which is good, because all that energy can go into useful work instead of out the radiator). Since heat isn't building up inside it, that means all the generated heat is getting blown out the exhaust, and the inside temperatures are nice and cold when the next charge comes through. Ceramics have extremely high tolerance for heat, and relatively low heat transfer rate. Which means that heat generated in the power/compression strokes doesn't have *time* to get transferred into the engine itself. From bearbvd at sni.net Sat May 22 05:57:25 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 01:57:25 -0400 Subject: O2 Volts Message-ID: >FYI - I've SEEN my headers glow while idling at night.... > >I'm pretty SURE they glow while at WOT and any where inbetween.... > >How hot are headers when they begin to glow? Is there some sorta >formula or somethin to tell us this, i've never heard of it, but I bet >there is a specific temp when a specific metal (Like Iron, FE) glows... > >LATER! > >Todd....!! > Some engineering or metalurgical manuals will have color charts for telling temperature by color, Todd. It is fairly accurate. Greg From garfield at cyberlynk.com Sat May 22 06:15:38 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 02:15:38 -0400 Subject: Message from CSH. HQ Message-ID: On Fri, 21 May 1999 23:21:08 -0400, "Bruce Plecan" wrote: > Anytime after Tuesday, CSH, HQ maybe closed for a while, from 1 week to 3 >months, possibly longer. Good luck and God speed, Dr. Pelican. BTW, is that a MAP or a MAF system you'll be getting? B) Gar From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Sat May 22 07:15:31 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 03:15:31 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > power stroke since no heat is absorbed by a cooling system. I would think > this would actually increase propensity for detonation. I'm speaking out of my ass here, so hold your nose. I would *thing* or *guess* that even with the higher heat inside the combustion chamber, if ceramics and polimers and composites don't absorb heat, when the explosion leaves out the exhaust valve, little heat would be retained, unlike iron, steel, and other metals, thus detonation might not be a big deal. Though again, I'm thinking aloud here. From tcb123 at qatar.net.qa Sat May 22 08:25:48 1999 From: tcb123 at qatar.net.qa (Tom Bennett) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 04:25:48 -0400 Subject: Message from CSH. HQ Message-ID: Good Luck Bruce. regards Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Plecan To: ; Sent: Saturday, May 22, 1999 6:21 AM Subject: Message from CSH. HQ > Well, since most of y'all, I'd call pals, and some friends, rather than > forgeting someone, I'll let y'all know whats going on, and this has no > EFI/automobile content. > Anytime after Tuesday, CSH, HQ maybe closed for a while, from 1 week to 3 > months, possibly longer. Lots of variables, but here are the biggies. > I need some new parts, and, I have been accepted as being a good host. > I'm waiting for a double lung transplant (monday is for final testing to > see, if the heart will be done, also). I have a genetic condition called > Alpha-1 Antitrysin Deficency, and the heart do to wear and tear from the > work caused by the Alpha-1.. > Also on Monday, I have a medical procedure to be done, and when the > results are back from those I'll be leaving home, room available to be > hospitialized for some extensive Physical Therapy, and the surgery, > depending on the donor situation at that time. > A couple folks have neighbor's phone number, and if anything major > happens, y'all will hear about it. > This may seem premature, but things have been a emotional roller coaster, > and I wanted to write this, before being to wrapped up in things, or > hurrying too much. > I have checks out to all, that I have commitments with, so just ship > things like normal, since things are not being abandened here. It will > probably will be a week from Tues before much happens but, I was put on > notice that the short term plans should be made for this, time table. > Bruce > > From RRauscher at nni.com Sat May 22 11:44:45 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 07:44:45 -0400 Subject: Message from CSH. HQ Message-ID: Bruce, our prayers will be with you, get well soon, we need you back. BobR. Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Well, since most of y'all, I'd call pals, and some friends, rather than > forgeting someone, I'll let y'all know whats going on, and this has no > EFI/automobile content. > Anytime after Tuesday, CSH, HQ maybe closed for a while, from 1 week to 3 > months, possibly longer. Lots of variables, but here are the biggies. > I need some new parts, and, I have been accepted as being a good host. > I'm waiting for a double lung transplant (monday is for final testing to > see, if the heart will be done, also). I have a genetic condition called > Alpha-1 Antitrysin Deficency, and the heart do to wear and tear from the > work caused by the Alpha-1.. > Also on Monday, I have a medical procedure to be done, and when the > results are back from those I'll be leaving home, room available to be > hospitialized for some extensive Physical Therapy, and the surgery, > depending on the donor situation at that time. > A couple folks have neighbor's phone number, and if anything major > happens, y'all will hear about it. > This may seem premature, but things have been a emotional roller coaster, > and I wanted to write this, before being to wrapped up in things, or > hurrying too much. > I have checks out to all, that I have commitments with, so just ship > things like normal, since things are not being abandened here. It will > probably will be a week from Tues before much happens but, I was put on > notice that the short term plans should be made for this, time table. > Bruce From CEIJR at aol.com Sat May 22 12:59:59 1999 From: CEIJR at aol.com (CEIJR at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 08:59:59 -0400 Subject: Message from CSH. HQ Message-ID: Bruce: I'll look forward to resumption of your wonderful posts -- looking back on a terrifying experience rather than forward to it. Best wishes. Charlie Iliff From gderian at oh.verio.com Sat May 22 14:29:52 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 10:29:52 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: OK, you guys convinced me. My thought was that during the few milliseconds of flame travel, less heat would be absorbed by the head and piston. It stands to reason that the amount of heat actually absorbed during this period is very small. Once the flame front has passed and the power stroke begins, the threat of detonation has passed. Gary Derian > At 10:05 PM 5/21/99 -0400, Gary Derian wrote: > >Engine research using ceramics is headed toward an adiabatic engine. That > >is one which needs no cooling system. This keeps the fire hotter during the > >power stroke since no heat is absorbed by a cooling system. I would think > >this would actually increase propensity for detonation. > > My *guess* is it's the other way around, at least in a 4 stroke. The > inside of the combustion chamber will be hotter right after the burn > than it would be in a metal engine, due to the lower heat capacity > and higher thermal resistance. But by the same token, the incoming > charge will be able to cool those same surfaces more than if they > had a low thermal resistance path to a big mass of hot, high heat > capacity metal. > > I know a couple of people have reported reduced detonation with some > of the diy coatings. Has anyone had the opposite result? > > Chris C. From aaronc at rsacom.com Sat May 22 14:50:41 1999 From: aaronc at rsacom.com (Chew, Aaron) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 10:50:41 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: I have no 1st hand experience. I've read that it is tricky and that the initial throttle opening doesn't provide good resolution, i.e., small throttle changes produce big engine load changes. A know of a BMW M3 person who converted from a vane flap meter to alpha-N who was pleased after a lot of tweaking and solving idle issues. I'm thinking about converting to alpha-N for my next project. Aaron -----Original Message----- From: Christopher J Beasley [mailto:chris_beasley at mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 10:09 PM To: Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions So you can actually do OK just with those two things? Would it be as good as or better than a carb? b Chew, Aaron wrote: > Alpha-n is a throttle-position and rpm fuel map control strategy. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher J Beasley [mailto:chris_beasley at mindspring.com] > Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 1:43 PM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow > > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can think > > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup > > Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? > > > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you > > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making a > 3 > > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich PE. > > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. > > What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike > applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, air > filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to compensate > and > I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications like > this. > > > > > > > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition > > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark > > timing. > > Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to take > over > triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? > Thanks! > Beez From maxboost at earthlink.net Sat May 22 15:51:38 1999 From: maxboost at earthlink.net (Steve) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:51:38 -0400 Subject: Message from CSH. HQ Message-ID: Good luck Bruce, Hope to see your posts again real soon! Steve -----Original Message----- > Anytime after Tuesday, CSH, HQ maybe closed for a while, from 1 week to 3 >months, possibly longer. From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Sat May 22 17:23:28 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 13:23:28 -0400 Subject: DIY FTP site Message-ID: Can someone forward the directions for uploading a file to the FTP site? Thanks, Charles Brooks From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sat May 22 17:37:57 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 13:37:57 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: On Fri, 21 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > That was Polimotor. It used Torlon(R) for the block and heads but had steel > lined combustion chamber, exhaust port and cylinder. > Does anyone have a net source for more info? From RRauscher at nni.com Sat May 22 19:16:31 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 15:16:31 -0400 Subject: DIY FTP site Message-ID: Sure, Fire up your browser and point it at: ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/ Once there, Do a alt-f (file menu), look for the entry that says 'Upload File...', click on that and follow the menus... (This is for Netscape). HTH BobR. C. Brooks wrote: > > Can someone forward the directions for uploading a file to the FTP site? > > Thanks, > > Charles Brooks From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 22 20:24:13 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 16:24:13 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 02:28 PM 5/21/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Good'n Bill, ouch... > > > >What new CAR is even SOLD with a Rat these dayzzzz.... Anything?... > > > >Just wonderinnnnnnn.........!!!! > > Suburban's, pickups, tahoe's etc... And just because the ads say they are trucks, don't confuse them with the real thing. ; ) Shannen From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Sat May 22 21:29:21 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:29:21 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: -> Exhaust is an inert gas as far as an engine is concerned. Not quite inert. It raises charge temps, which promotes better fuel atomization. It reduces pumping losses, which returns otherwise-lost horsepower. The added charge temp also changes the combustion characteristics of the intake charge, extending the early phases of combustion and reducing the later ones. As a secondary effect, generation of charge steam as end product is increased, extending the cylinder prsure curve and returning more "lost" horsepower. On fuel-injected GM V8 pickup trucks, disabling the EGR valve will cost 2-3 mpg, right off the top. The first test a line mechanic does when a customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint is an EGR valve test. -> EGR is -> used to reduce peak combustion chamber temps which limits the -> formation of NOx. In the bad old days (1970's), EGR was added and -> ignition timing was retarded. This combo made for badly running -> engines. Back in ancient times, yes. Modern EGR control strategies are more sophisticated, and the engines aren't laboring under the burden of early, primitive emission control systems either. Many "EGR" complaints of the old days were actually due to secondary faults only peripherally related to the EGR itself. -> I would not use EGR in a hot rod unless you are using a fuel injected -> engine which already has a good EGR setup. Adding EGR to a carbureted engine can be difficult as it will drop the cruise vacuum *and* the air velocity across the venturis, which will result in a lean cruise mixture. It can be difficult to calibrate carburetors to handle this. However, many carbs run rich at cruise, such as the primitive Holley four barrels. You might fangle an O2 feedback to a PWM EGR valve and get a worthwhile return in fuel economy. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Sat May 22 21:36:57 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:36:57 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: David A. Cooley wrote: > I blew a pair of Hemi mufflers off a 68 Pontiac Bonneville... Turned the key > off for about 2 secs while under way at 70MPH and when I cut the key back on > it blew the exhaust system apart! > Scared the hell out of me! I was trying to hitch a ride in Germany (about 25 years ago) on a major autobahn near Munich. This is of course illegal. I was facing away from the flow of traffic and was almost deafened, scared shitless and fell off my pack, when a jet black police Porsche, doing all of 100 mph, came up behind me, cuts its ignition, stomped on the gas for a second, and switched back on the spark -- BOOOOOMMMM! They didn't even stop to tell me what I knew. Honestly, it worked, I took a train! -- Peter Gargano From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 22 22:01:15 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 18:01:15 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: | I have no 1st hand experience. I've read that it is tricky and that the | initial throttle opening doesn't provide good resolution, i.e., small | throttle changes produce big engine load changes. There are some postings in the archives, about a 20 degree throttle opening being like 70% of throttle opening area. Grumpy From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Sat May 22 22:07:22 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 18:07:22 -0400 Subject: DIY FTP site Message-ID: I'm using IE 4.0, and CuteFTP32. I'm getting an "Unable to resolve host name" error when I try to connect. Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: rr To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 22, 1999 6:06 PM Subject: Re: DIY FTP site >Sure, > >Fire up your browser and point it at: > > ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/ > >Once there, > >Do a alt-f (file menu), look for the entry that says 'Upload File...', > >click on that and follow the menus... > >(This is for Netscape). > >HTH > >BobR. > > >C. Brooks wrote: >> >> Can someone forward the directions for uploading a file to the FTP site? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Charles Brooks > > From RRauscher at nni.com Sat May 22 23:52:23 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 19:52:23 -0400 Subject: DIY FTP site Message-ID: Ok, you might some heavy-duty help, but first try this: Point browser at this: http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/ You can should be able to get here, this is a web site. Then, click on: "Index of the files on the FTP site " Then, at the very top of the next page, you should see: "Index to some of the files in the FTP directory," "ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/:" Click on the second line, this is the same that you tried before. If you got that far, but couldn't get into the ftp site, you need to speak with either your sys-adm or your isp tech support. BobR. C. Brooks wrote: > > I'm using IE 4.0, and CuteFTP32. I'm getting an "Unable to resolve host > name" error when I try to connect. > > Charles Brooks > > -----Original Message----- > From: rr > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Saturday, May 22, 1999 6:06 PM > Subject: Re: DIY FTP site > > >Sure, > > > >Fire up your browser and point it at: > > > > ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/ > > > >Once there, > > > >Do a alt-f (file menu), look for the entry that says 'Upload File...', > > > >click on that and follow the menus... > > > >(This is for Netscape). > > > >HTH > > > >BobR. > > > > > >C. Brooks wrote: > >> > >> Can someone forward the directions for uploading a file to the FTP site? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Charles Brooks > > > > From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sun May 23 01:27:03 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:27:03 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: At 04:13 PM 5/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >And just because the ads say they are trucks, don't confuse them with >the real thing. ; ) And 4X4 for that matter... Look in the owners manual and it says that if you take the vehicle off road the warranty is void... =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From thergen at svn.net Sun May 23 02:03:48 1999 From: thergen at svn.net (thergen at svn.net) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 22:03:48 -0400 Subject: DIY FTP site Message-ID: Another possibility... Open a dos window (assuming a win95 machine). C:\>ftp efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu User (efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu:(none)): anonymous Password: chuck at somehwere.com cd incoming binary send my_file ls (this will show you a list of files) quit Some lines that will appear on your screen were not included in the example above. Tom On Sat, 22 May 1999, C. Brooks wrote: > I'm using IE 4.0, and CuteFTP32. I'm getting an "Unable to resolve host > name" error when I try to connect. > > Charles Brooks > > -----Original Message----- > From: rr > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Saturday, May 22, 1999 6:06 PM > Subject: Re: DIY FTP site > > > >Sure, > > > >Fire up your browser and point it at: > > > > ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/ > > > >Once there, > > > >Do a alt-f (file menu), look for the entry that says 'Upload File...', > > > >click on that and follow the menus... > > > >(This is for Netscape). > > > >HTH > > > >BobR. > > > > > >C. Brooks wrote: > >> > >> Can someone forward the directions for uploading a file to the FTP site? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Charles Brooks > > > > > From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Sun May 23 02:19:56 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 22:19:56 -0400 Subject: DIY FTP site Message-ID: No, no, I don't have any problem VIEWING the FTP site. I want to upload a file to the site and my FTP S/W is giving me an error which reads "Unable to resolve host name". I'm using port 21 and ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/ as the host name. This isn't working. Am I using the wrong port address for FTPing to this site? Or is the FTP host name different from the WWW address? Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: rr To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 22, 1999 10:48 PM Subject: Re: DIY FTP site >Ok, you might some heavy-duty help, but first try this: > >Point browser at this: > > http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/ > >You can should be able to get here, this is a web site. > >Then, click on: > > "Index of the files on the FTP site " > >Then, at the very top of the next page, you should see: > > "Index to some of the files in the FTP directory," > "ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/:" > >Click on the second line, this is the same that you tried >before. > >If you got that far, but couldn't get into the ftp site, >you need to speak with either your sys-adm or your isp >tech support. > >BobR. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sun May 23 02:48:32 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 22:48:32 -0400 Subject: DIY FTP site Message-ID: At 10:20 PM 5/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >No, no, I don't have any problem VIEWING the FTP site. I want to upload a >file to the site and my FTP S/W is giving me an error which reads "Unable to >resolve host name". I'm using port 21 and >ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/ as the host name. This isn't >working. Am I using the wrong port address for FTPing to this site? Or is >the FTP host name different from the WWW address? Leave the /incoming/ off the address... the host name is simply efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu then once connected as anonymous, type cd incoming. that will put you in the incoming directory =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From fluffy at snurgle.org Sun May 23 08:03:08 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 04:03:08 -0400 Subject: DIY FTP site Message-ID: On Sat, 22 May 1999, C. Brooks wrote: > resolve host name". I'm using port 21 and > ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming/ as the host name. This isn't efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu is the host name. If you have pre-IE4 Win95, you can run ftp from a DOS box as the previous message suggested. Otherwise you have to type this instead: c:\windows\ftp efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu into the "run" box on the start menu. From geoffsue at one.net.au Sun May 23 08:51:31 1999 From: geoffsue at one.net.au (Geffro) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 04:51:31 -0400 Subject: Where to start Message-ID: Hi Folks Anyone got a website with info on the basics of programming proms eg. What is an emulator ? How to use it ? This is a broadcast code. This is a calibration code. This is a checksum. This is how it all works Ya get the idea TIA Geoff From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Sun May 23 13:13:39 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:13:39 -0400 Subject: DIY FTP site Message-ID: Thanks for the help, I'm able to access the site for uploads now. Charles Brooks From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 23 13:28:57 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:28:57 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: Dave Williams wrote: > > -> Exhaust is an inert gas as far as an engine is concerned. > > On fuel-injected GM V8 pickup trucks, disabling the EGR valve will cost > 2-3 mpg, right off the top. The first test a line mechanic does when a > customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint is an EGR > valve test. It is? And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the first test. ; ) Shannen From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Sun May 23 13:36:28 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:36:28 -0400 Subject: NTK UEGO response Message-ID: There is now a file on the FTP site called NTK_UEGO.JPG It is the UEGO controller output as a function of A/F ratio for the model# TC-6110A. There are three control boxes available from NGK TC-6110A Lean/Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 30:1 TC-6110C Lean measurement for A/F ratios between 14:1 and 55:1 TC-6110D Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 15:1 Charles Brooks From RRauscher at nni.com Sun May 23 14:31:33 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 10:31:33 -0400 Subject: Where to start Message-ID: First, go here and download the Tuning Tips for '747, and the Programming 101 Guide: http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/oem/gm/index.html Then from this link, click on the archive link, and search away for anything of interest: http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/ This should get you going, BobR. Geffro wrote: > > Hi Folks > Anyone got a website with info on the basics of programming proms > eg. What is an emulator ? How to use it ? This is a broadcast code. > This is a calibration code. This is a checksum. This is how it all works > Ya get the idea > TIA > Geoff From memvive at globetrotter.qc.ca Sun May 23 15:13:47 1999 From: memvive at globetrotter.qc.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E9l=E8ne?= Villemure) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 11:13:47 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Bruce, I wish you the very best through your stay in hospital. I was shocked to learn that you needed such serious medical interventions! But Matti and I wish you a quick and peaceful recovery. Fare well, Bruce Plecan a ?crit: > Gee, maybe Holley has something in the works > I hadn't heard about their Cutler tie...... > Doc > > | EFI Trivia FWIW > | Cutler (who won one of the early magazine EFI Shootouts) was bought by Hi > | Rel a year or two ago. > | Hi Rel was bought by Holley within the last year. > | When I bought my Cutler manifold, they were only making stuff for boats. > | I was told that the self learn capability required a lot of time at each > | specific load condition and boats were closer to that than cars. Cars > with > | a duty cycle of start, accelerate, shift. shift, shift, backoff stop, etc. > | didn't provide a chance for the system to learn and I was told that a > later > | version of the system would again address cars - I dont think it ever > | happened before Cutler was sold. > | Thats why I'm blending a 7727 with my Cutler and other PFI parts. > | Bud > | >From: "Bruce Plecan" > | >Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions > | >Alpha-N means the EFI just uses Throttle Posistion, and rpm to figure > fuel > | >and/or timing. > | > PE is Power enrichment. > | > Self tuning is a dream for really high performance. There is no way to > | >optimize tuning other than by testing. Self compensating for slight > | >changes, maybe.. If you change the volumetic effeciency, the you'll have > to > | >test to find best Air Fuel Ratio, and to be best, would also, be > optimizing > | >timing. > | > "Self-Tunig", is a buzz word. Compensating does exist in the world as > we > | >know it. > | > Self Tuning was done by the Cutler EFI Co., in FL. But, they are out > of > | >business as far as I know. The problem was loading the engine down long > | >enough at one time for the computer to learn things. Talked with a guy > who > | >had done several of the installations, and after 4, he was finished > trying. > | >Took many hours on dyno, and 2 applications were boats. Not enough > waterway > | >for unlimited WOT testing. > | > Single cylinder closed loop might be a real challenge. The time from > | >cycle to cycle is so long.. To get any averages you'd be using waiting > days > | >for when to apply the correction, unless you go event by event and at low > | >rpm you might wind up with stalling before an odd event is averaged out. > | >Singles can be very erratic at idle, from what Cub work i did years ago. > | > A basic Alpha-N, with barometric, and Intake air Temp compensation > would > | >be about as sweet and complex as I'd think would be practicle. > | > Probably best to use a "fixed" pullse at idle (other than for the above > | >corrections), and some pots for accleration, transistion (accleration, > and > | >decleration), and WOT tuning. > | > Might use a WB O2 for just seeing where you are, rather than close > looping > | >it. > | >Just my 02 cents > | >Grumpy > | >| > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air > flow > | >| > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can > | >think > | >| > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a > lookup > | >| Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? > | >| > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do > you > | >| > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for > making > | >a 3 > | >| > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and > rich > | >PE. > | >| > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. > | >| What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike > | >| applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, > | >air > | >| filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to > compensate > | >and > | >| I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications > | >like > | >| this. > | >| > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include > ignition > | >| > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark > | >| > timing. > | >| Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to > take > | >over > | >| triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? > | >| Thanks! > | >| Beez From tcb123 at qatar.net.qa Sun May 23 15:20:22 1999 From: tcb123 at qatar.net.qa (Tom Bennett) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 11:20:22 -0400 Subject: Where to start Message-ID: Hi, Try this! http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ regards Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: Geffro To: Sent: Sunday, May 23, 1999 3:30 AM Subject: Where to start > Hi Folks > Anyone got a website with info on the basics of programming proms > eg. What is an emulator ? How to use it ? This is a broadcast code. > This is a calibration code. This is a checksum. This is how it all works > Ya get the idea > TIA > Geoff > > From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Sun May 23 16:33:04 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 12:33:04 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: -> boost. I've heard all the theories about turning the fuel off -> then back on, but they don't seem to apply with 16psi of -> boost.. There is *significant* detonation as the injectors come back -> on.. Mitsubishi uses fuel cut on its turbo fours. They don't detonate after fuel resumes. Must be a GM programming problem. From garfield at cyberlynk.com Sun May 23 16:36:30 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 12:36:30 -0400 Subject: NTK UEGO response Message-ID: On Sun, 23 May 1999 09:36:33 -0400, "C. Brooks" wrote: >There is now a file on the FTP site called NTK_UEGO.JPG > >It is the UEGO controller output as a function of A/F ratio for the model# >TC-6110A. > >There are three control boxes available from NGK > >TC-6110A Lean/Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 30:1 >TC-6110C Lean measurement for A/F ratios between 14:1 and 55:1 >TC-6110D Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 15:1 What you see there is a curve that has remained the same since the TC-6000. Also, everybody should understand that's NOT a voltage out curve of the sensor, of course, since it's a current-pump device, but rather the result of the equivalent R of the current-pump's feedback circuit in the NTK interface box, multiplied times the Ipump. The two roughly linear slopes on either side of stoich (this point of zero pump current is set in the NTK boxes to fall on 3.0V out) represent the cases of the pump having to add or extract O2 from the measurement cavity, and since it takes a diff. amount of current per amount of O2 to pump, depending on whether you're removing or adding O2, you get those two diff. slopes on either side of stoich. Just wanna emphasize that these output curves and model #s Charles has post are for a complete NTK interface box/system, not sensors per se. Thas why he said "UEGO *controller*" output in his post. Gar P.S. The *shape* of these curves is just like EGOR-the-module's output (because the shape is inherent to the sensor), although the output voltage range and stoichpoint can be altered as you wish. EGOR-the-meter will have linearized them, and allow programming the range of AFR inspection and output voltage, as well as the crossover voltage for stoich. Hadta get that lil advert in, ya know. B) From soren at rio.com Sun May 23 17:07:20 1999 From: soren at rio.com (soren) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 13:07:20 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: >>The first test a line mechanic does when a >> customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint is an EGR >> valve test. >It is? And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the >first test. ; ) Me too! Unless the car had always been serviced at the dealership on a regular basis, then I always look for a mouse-nest in the air filter box first. Soren From kb4mxo at mwt.net Sun May 23 19:34:21 1999 From: kb4mxo at mwt.net (Steve Gorkowski) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:34:21 -0400 Subject: NTK UEGO response Message-ID: Charles Are your graphs saying if you buy there meter you have to make the data linear after it gets to your pc and they want over $1000 dollars? Must me nice to be the only game in town . Steve C. Brooks wrote: > There is now a file on the FTP site called NTK_UEGO.JPG > > It is the UEGO controller output as a function of A/F ratio for the model# > TC-6110A. > > There are three control boxes available from NGK > > TC-6110A Lean/Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 30:1 > TC-6110C Lean measurement for A/F ratios between 14:1 and 55:1 > TC-6110D Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 15:1 > > Charles Brooks From RRauscher at nni.com Sun May 23 19:54:29 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:54:29 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: soren wrote: > > >>The first test a line mechanic does when a > >> customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint is an EGR > >> valve test. > > >It is? And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the > >first test. ; ) > > Me too! Unless the car had always been serviced at the dealership on a > regular basis, then I always look for a mouse-nest in the air filter box > first. > > Soren I've had that problem, put a wire screen over the opening. So now their camping out on top of the manifold, under the plenum. I'm just praying that they don't get hungry and eat the injector wiring (efi content). BobR. -- From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 23 20:30:07 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 16:30:07 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: City Folk, round here we ask if Cindy did the math. If not we get the math team out and double check it. Then sometimes, Grumpy does the refueling and driving, then the Math team takes over. When gas was less then a quarter a gallon, didn't worry much about such things. Course now with a new fangled confuser in the car ya gotta. Doc | soren wrote: | > >>The first test a line mechanic does when a | > >> customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint is an EGR | > >> valve test. | > >It is? And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the | > >first test. ; ) | > Me too! Unless the car had always been serviced at the dealership on a | > regular basis, then I always look for a mouse-nest in the air filter box | > first. | > Soren | I've had that problem, put a wire screen over the opening. So now their | camping out on top of the manifold, under the plenum. I'm just praying | that they don't get hungry and eat the injector wiring (efi content). | BobR. From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Sun May 23 21:30:44 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:30:44 -0400 Subject: NTK UEGO response Message-ID: Thanks Gar, guess I should have emphasized that a little more. I saw your post on EGOR. When do you think you will release the price for it? I'm asking because I'm planning on buying the NTK box at the end of the month. Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Gar Willis To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 23, 1999 3:17 PM Subject: Re: NTK UEGO response > >Just wanna emphasize that these output curves and model #s Charles has post are >for a complete NTK interface box/system, not sensors per se. Thas why he said >"UEGO *controller*" output in his post. > >Gar > >P.S. The *shape* of these curves is just like EGOR-the-module's output (because >the shape is inherent to the sensor), although the output voltage range and >stoichpoint can be altered as you wish. EGOR-the-meter will have linearized >them, and allow programming the range of AFR inspection and output voltage, as >well as the crossover voltage for stoich. Hadta get that lil advert in, ya know. >B) > > From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 23 22:11:48 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:11:48 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: soren wrote: > > >>The first test a line mechanic does when a > >> customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint is an EGR > >> valve test. > > >It is? And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the > >first test. ; ) > > Me too! Unless the car had always been serviced at the dealership on a > regular basis, then I always look for a mouse-nest in the air filter box > first. > > Soren Cute. I've seen lots of plug wire boots chewed on by mice. They love to get up around the dizzy cap on the older pickups and chew on the silicone. Leads to some honest "It was fine when I parked it" stories. Shannen From nakapuff at club-internet.fr Sun May 23 23:51:42 1999 From: nakapuff at club-internet.fr (=?iso-8859-1?B?TOlvbmFyZCBGculjaGV0?=) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 19:51:42 -0400 Subject: ECU programming Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA246.40AAD320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Where can I find a "free" software to programm an eprom for my clio 16S = car......free.....or nicely offered by someone.... nakapuff at club-internet.fr ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA246.40AAD320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Where can I find a "free" = software to=20 programm an eprom for my clio 16S car......free.....or nicely offered by = someone....
 
nakapuff at club-internet.fr
 
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA246.40AAD320-- From garfield at cyberlynk.com Sun May 23 23:53:51 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 19:53:51 -0400 Subject: NTK UEGO response Message-ID: On Sun, 23 May 1999 14:25:06 -0500, Steve Gorkowski wrote: >...if you buy there meter you have to make the data linear >after it gets to your pc and they want over $1000 dollars? Must me nice to be >the only game in town . Huh? They are not the only game in town, nor is that even a "meter" the curve refers to. Both Horiba and E.C.M. sell interfaces OR meters, both that have linearized AFR-to-Vout curves. The so-called "NTK UEGO Controller" is NOT a meter. It's like EGOR-the-module, it's a basic "interface". I think the reason the NTK "interfaces/controllers" are the way they are, is that historically, when the papers first describing their sensor were published, they discussed a pump-current to voltage translation that was a direct mapping from the current to Vout. The interface wasn't designed with direct-reading of AFR, or logging, or ease of computer interfacing in mind, so much as directly reflecting the electrical characteristics of the sensor, which was after all what they were touting. Course, if you look at it another way, the NTK "Controller" is the cheapest low-end NTK UEGO equipment available to date; the E.C.M and Horiba devices are roughly double the NTK price; that is, until EGOR becomes available. B) From mike at webcruzers.com Mon May 24 00:02:06 1999 From: mike at webcruzers.com (Mike DiMeco) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 20:02:06 -0400 Subject: Ford ECUs Message-ID: Does anyone have Ford ECU knowledge? I have a 1990 Mustang 5.0 LX, AOD, 3:08 rear. I need information on fuel and spark tables and formulas, and also fan temp. and TCC lockup. Do the Fords have an EPROM or PROM? Can I desolder it to program, or will I need to scrap it and buy DFI? Mike From garfield at cyberlynk.com Mon May 24 00:16:10 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 20:16:10 -0400 Subject: NTK UEGO response Message-ID: On Sun, 23 May 1999 17:30:47 -0400, "C. Brooks" wrote: >Thanks Gar, guess I should have emphasized that a little more. Oh I dunno, probly most everyone caught the drift; I was just tryna head off the few stray neophytes. The NTK product, and the whole situation with the exclusive rights to make meters by Horiba, coupled with the odd situation with E.C.M makes both the products and their description kinda an odd crazy-quiltish affair, methinks. >I saw your >post on EGOR. When do you think you will release the price for it? I'm >asking because I'm planning on buying the NTK box at the end of the month. We have to accomplish two things before that can happen: (1) finish the move into our new building, and (2) get closure with the mfg. company that's gonna be making the meters (the meters, not the modules) on THEIR pricing structure and rollout schedule. It's not really gonna effect the EGOR-the-module price, that's already been set actually, but we can't announce the module until they're ready to announce the meter product availability & pricing. I mentioned to someone privately, and can maybe say this much about the price. The MODULE (please note everyone, I'm talkin now about EGOR-the-module) will be priced with the goal of making it possible for any experimenter to build either a WOT/closed-loop engine management setup OR a rudimentary AFR meter, using EGOR-the-module, for $350 or less (had to bump it up $50 due to inflation :), *including* the Honda sensor (yes, the $350 allowance INCLUDES the Honda sensor cost; altho it appears we won't be selling them, the cost of buying one from your local Honda dealer IS included in that $350 figure). Now, since yous guys should know roughly how much a Honda/NTK sensor costs, and how much a handful of parts, LEDs or LCDs, etc. cost, you can probly guess roughly what the MODULE is gonna havta cost for you to be able to build yer own complete stuff for <$350. You will see that the assembled meter will ALSO be aggressively priced to kick competitive butt with the NTK-interface, Horiba, E.C.M., etc.'s lowest end devices as well, AND provide better functionality for the far fewer bucks. The idea is that NOW, there is enough of a market to go for some volume, instead of treating them as high-end devices only racing teams are interested in/can afford. The times, they are a-changin. Gar From mike at webcruzers.com Mon May 24 01:24:21 1999 From: mike at webcruzers.com (Mike DiMeco) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 21:24:21 -0400 Subject: Ford ECUs Message-ID: Does anyone have Ford ECU knowledge? I need some table locations and formulas for spark, fuel, closed loop, TCC lockup etc. 90 Mustang 5.0 LX AOD 3:08 rear end. Do they have EPROMs or PROMS? Do I need to desolder to program? Mike From twsharpe at mtco.com Mon May 24 02:00:49 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 22:00:49 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Why use a spark at all??? just squeeze it till it pops... Tom (Cat man) Sharpe Todd....!! wrote: > C'mon David...., > > They used to think it was impossible to travel to the moon, much less > mars.... we've done it... > > They used to think a 4 minute mile was impossible... Done > > As well as a sub 4 second 1/4 run outof a piston engined dragster... > Done > > etc, etc... > > Just as a thought, if your believe the limitation of runnin a non spark > plug engine using the block and head as the anode and ground instead of > a spark plug is because of the bolts and the water between em creating a > connection, then we must insulate em, maybe even run two > seperated(isolated) radiators, one for the head, one for the block... > > As for the bolts, use isolated anchors within the block or merely secure > the heads onto the block via some sortof external mechanism...(like a > vice) > > Most obstacles are easily overcome, if ya think the 'right' way.... > > Anything else? > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > > David A. Cooley wrote: > > > > > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and > > > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all > > > together due to not having a need for em anymore! > > > > > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically isolated from the heads > > > fairly wasily with nonconductive head gaskets, etc... > > > > Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, water in the cooling jacket is > > conductive etc... > > It's basically an impossibility. From twsharpe at mtco.com Mon May 24 02:16:36 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 22:16:36 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Chew, Aaron wrote: > Alpha-n is a throttle-position and rpm fuel map control strategy. > For a really simple system, Alpha_N with a quad set of pots to adjust things, say idle to off idle(0% to +10%), cruse (+10 to +30), acceleration (+30 to +60) and WOT. Just more screws to adjust than a standard carb.... add temperature correction if you ride when it's cold or hot.. or a fifth pot for a global weather adjustment. Sounds like an old Holley analog unit.. That's (IMHO) what VW used in the 70's. Tom From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 24 02:17:08 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 22:17:08 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: -> > 2-3 mpg, right off the top. The first test a line mechanic does -> when a > customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint -> is an EGR > valve test. > It is? And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the > first test. ; ) Jeez, you must work in an ancient dealership! Modern dealerships employ "ticket writers" to interface with customer-vermin; the relationship between the problem on the ticket and what the customer brought the car in for is sometimes tenuous. In any event, no line mechanic ever deals with a customer nowadays. They might get cooties or something. From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 24 03:02:42 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 23:02:42 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: Dave Williams wrote: > > -> > 2-3 mpg, right off the top. The first test a line mechanic does > -> when a > customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint > -> is an EGR > valve test. > > > It is? And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the > > first test. ; ) > > Jeez, you must work in an ancient dealership! Modern dealerships > employ "ticket writers" to interface with customer-vermin; the > relationship between the problem on the ticket and what the customer > brought the car in for is sometimes tenuous. In any event, no line > mechanic ever deals with a customer nowadays. They might get cooties or > something. > Ancient?? Just because they still have service manuals for cars from the 50's, does that make them ancient? Sometimes, the Service Manager would grab his tools out and help me, and the other tech. I could order parts, write up RO's, mechanic, paint (not really good at that), and do body work, fix the shop equipment, maintain the shop's two computers, and would routinely get calls on weekends and after hours. That was when I was in Montana, where diversity is the only way to get ahead. We had it pretty good by comparison. At a GM training course, two of the guys were mentioning how they'd never used a hoist, and never wanted to. The big guy was really happy laying trannies on his stomach and installing them without a jack. This was the Pioneer Garage in Jordan. And Jordan, BTW, was where the Freemen were holed up. Now, I'm in a closed shop. We get a little bit of customer work, and I try to be at the desk whenever it comes in. It's a good idea to at least show yourself to the car owner, IMHO. Shannen From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Mon May 24 03:47:02 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 23:47:02 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: On Sun, 23 May 1999, soren wrote: > > Me too! Unless the car had always been serviced at the dealership on a > regular basis, then I always look for a mouse-nest in the air filter box > first. > Then there is rats and plug wires. They seem to prefer GM wires. I suppose the government will want to study the effect of silicone insulation on their tender little digestive tracks soon... From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Mon May 24 04:09:36 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 00:09:36 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: On Sun, 23 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > the 50's, does that make them ancient? Sometimes, the Service Manager > would grab his tools out and help me, and the other tech. A service manager that actually knows someting about cars? Well, I suppose it COULD happen... From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:47:08 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:47:08 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Hi Grumpy, I was wonderin how ya came to get that nicname? I can see a bit of grumpy-ness in some of your posts... However, you still sound sincere and I believe taht you feel strongly about what you state... Thanks for the responses... The MPH 'wall' for the top fuelers in the past was 300 mph, no one ever thaought they'd break that one, today I believe they're even in the 31X.'s(teens) in mph! That's FAST! Sub 4 = 3.xx is correct... Gene Snow, I believe was one of the firsts to get into the 3's in the 1/4 in his top fueler! He even did it without a rear spoiler!! It was a 'test' run, and it went rather well considerin not havin 300-1,000+ lb.s of down force from the HUGE spoiler the top fuelers run... Thanks for the info about the saab, I learn things everyday from this and other threads... Try to write it down, save it somewhere, or print most of the cooler things... Wonder how much I've forgotten!!?? LATER! Todd....!! Bruce Plecan wrote: > > | > They used to think it was impossible to travel to the moon, much less > | > mars.... we've done it... > > Depends on if you beleive the news. > > | > They used to think a 4 minute mile was impossible... Done > > | > As well as a sub 4 second 1/4 run outof a piston engined dragster... > | > Done > > Hear of sub 5, but not sub 4. Wouldn't sub 4 mean 3.xx > > | snip > > | > Most obstacles are easily overcome, if ya think the 'right' way.... > > Cold Fusion. > > | why not have a spark plug with a very long nose and no side electrode > > Saab done it already, trouble was erosion at top of ring pattern when spark > occured. > Grumpy > > | ie > | the nose clears the threaded part by .5" to .75" and sparks to the > | piston due to proximity > | a problem I could see is the oil insulating the return path > | > Anything else? > | > LATER! > | > Todd....!! > | > David A. Cooley wrote: > | > > > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode > and > | > > > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all > | > > > together due to not having a need for em anymore! > | > > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically isolated from the heads > | > > > fairly wasily with nonconductive head gaskets, etc... > | > > Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, water in the cooling > jacket is > | > > conductive etc... > | > > It's basically an impossibility. > | Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:47:15 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:47:15 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Thanks for that input David... However, I DID say CAR ya know? Mopar Trucks come with V-10's but only one car comes with one... the Viper... They SHOULD'VE put the V-10 in the Prowler... I like the looks, but the power's lackin on the prowler, I'm sure.... LATER!, Todd....!! David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 02:28 PM 5/21/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Good'n Bill, ouch... > > > >What new CAR is even SOLD with a Rat these dayzzzz.... Anything?... > > > >Just wonderinnnnnnn.........!!!! > > Suburban's, pickups, tahoe's etc... > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:47:21 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:47:21 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model Message-ID: Thanks for the info Bill!, Will be savin your 'back to basics' formulas and ideals! Thanks for unclouding the fogginess and confusion from some of our thinkin! In drag racing the stall should be set between max torque and max HP, I believe that if we just used a stall the stalled right at our red line that we would get the best e.t. and MPH in the 1/4... If we could keep from spinnin &/or breakin... LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Bill Bradley wrote: > > > > I don't know, but don't hp and torque curves always > > > cross at 5252 RPM? How would that work on any engine > > > that has a peak HP over 5252 RPM? > > > > Yes they do... Just means that as the Torque and HP cross at 5252, the HP is > > rising and the torque is falling. > > they don't stay the same above 5252. > > Wrong. The torque curve could very easily be rising, > HP=torque(lb*ft)*rpm/5252. They always cross there. > > As far as the Max torque vs. Max Hp issue. Torque =Force x radius > so the maximum force accelerating the car is directly proportional to the > maximum torque. > Power=Work/time, but it also equals Force*velocity, so the maximum > force at any given speed is at maximum horsepower (the gearing is irrelevant) > So for maximum acceleration you want the revs to be at peak hp. For > those of us with normal transmissions, the usable power curve is more > important than peak, which is where the maximum torque is a factor. > > Bill From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:51:03 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:51:03 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: COOL DEAL! I know that Aluminum(AL) is a bit less than half the weight of Iron(FE) at the moleculer level, but how much lighter is plastic than either? They MUSt've used steel cylinder liners in that plstic block, right? Just wonderin.... LATER! Todd....!! AL8001 at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 99-05-21 16:57:28 EDT, atc347 at c-com.net writes: > > >You're correct Fred, > > > >Didn't Popular Science already 'do' the plastic engine article quite a > >few years back(10-15 years ago?) > > > >I forgot about it... > > > > > Yes, it was based on the Ford 2.3L 4 Cyl engine. It was also raced for a > time in IMSA in a GTU car. > > Harold From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:51:05 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:51:05 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Sounds like a painful operation to me!! ALSO, BTW - FYI - Found a HUGE IMPERIAL cruisin in the junk yard universe this weekend, and it has a HEMI IN IT!! HOWEVER it's an old 50's or early 60's at the latest car, I can't tell what year it is.. but the distributor is in the rear of the hemi, which means that is ain't a 426(426's dist is in the front like the newer mopar BB's) So the question now is, is this engine truly a 392 or just a 331...? EITHER way, it IS a hemi and it is HUGE! NO ONE will be able to tel the diff tween it and a REAL 426 hemi except for the distributor sittin in the back! Anybody know how to tell what year the car is or whether or not the engine is a 331 or 392 hemi? They only want $300 for it, and that's still negotiable... Will be checkin for info on how to tell what this engine is... May just have ta pull a head to check the bore and pull the crank to check the stroke or somethin... the bore should tell me nuff? Will be gettin the specs and differences tween the 331 and 392 as well... LATER! Todd....!! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Actually, the plug location in a Hemi is bad because it is off to one side. > > Its the best you can do with a Hemi but its still bad. As a result it needs > > >From what I've read a not so uncommon mod for all out racing is to drill > and tap another spark plug hole... but I've not found anything on the > net about it. Someone who was slightly intoxicated mentioned this to me > in a bar a year or so ago. From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:51:07 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:51:07 -0400 Subject: Mr Helmholz - simple model, top fuel Message-ID: They still use the lenco in the non top fuelers... Those are some cool trannies! One was for sale at one of the swaps of late... It was a 2-speeder as well! They refer to the 1st gear as an underdrive ratio, like 40% underdrive instead of 3.23:1 or something... It was pretty cheap too! Check it out at http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm under the autorama section! LATER! Todd....!! ECMnut at aol.com wrote: > > Man, I AM a fossil... > When did they scrap the 2 speed lenco? > MV > > > > ALSO a TOP FUEL dragster is still traction limited, doesn't have more > > than one gear, and the clutch slides the entire run... > > From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:51:12 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:51:12 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Thanks for the info Jim!, As for the B/RB block not having the provisions for cross bolts, that can be SIMPLY remedied by my good ol handy n durable Black n decker drill! LOL! LATER! Todd....!! Jim Davies wrote: > > On Fri, 21 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > > > Are ya sure that the cranks don't interchange? > > > > What's the diff? Besides the Hemi having 8 flywheel bolt holes vs the > > 440/383's 6 flywheel bolt holes > > > > Are the main journals a different size? or the rod journals? what? > > > > The stroke is 3.75, same as a 440... > > > They will fit. the counterweights are different, of course. > > > And as for the caps, jsut cuz there's an extra bolt hole in the main > > caps for the cross bolt, does that mean ya still can't use em in the > > 440? > You could use them, too. Most of them were malleable iron. There is no > provision in the regular B block for the cross bolts... From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:51:17 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:51:17 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: People who run Alcohol engine's (most of em are in some sorta drag racing) who have no radiators at all on their engine's say they have a hard time gettin the temp gauge to read any heat at all! Alcohol must burn REALLY COOL! LATER! Todd....!! -------- William T Wilson wrote: > > On Fri, 21 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > > > Engine research using ceramics is headed toward an adiabatic engine. > > That is one which needs no cooling system. This keeps the fire hotter > > during the power stroke since no heat is absorbed by a cooling system. > > I would think this would actually increase propensity for detonation. > > It doesn't, necessarily, because the nice thing about an adiabatic engine > is that having a hot fire during the power stroke hasn't got anything to > do with the temperature inside the cylider during the intake/compression > stroke. > > If the engine needs no cooling system, then that means that heat isn't > building up inside it (which is good, because all that energy can go into > useful work instead of out the radiator). Since heat isn't building up > inside it, that means all the generated heat is getting blown out the > exhaust, and the inside temperatures are nice and cold when the next > charge comes through. > > Ceramics have extremely high tolerance for heat, and relatively low heat > transfer rate. Which means that heat generated in the power/compression > strokes doesn't have *time* to get transferred into the engine itself. From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:51:21 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:51:21 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: SCARY BUT COOOOOLLL! Thanks for the warnin! Will let my Brother in Italy know this as well, just in case he ever goes to that part a the country!! LATER! Todd....!! Peter Gargano wrote: > > David A. Cooley wrote: > > > I blew a pair of Hemi mufflers off a 68 Pontiac Bonneville... Turned the key > > off for about 2 secs while under way at 70MPH and when I cut the key back on > > it blew the exhaust system apart! > > > Scared the hell out of me! > > I was trying to hitch a ride in Germany (about 25 years ago) on a major autobahn > near Munich. This is of course illegal. I was facing away from the flow of traffic > and was almost deafened, scared shitless and fell off my pack, when a jet black > police Porsche, doing all of 100 mph, came up behind me, cuts its ignition, stomped > on the gas for a second, and switched back on the spark -- > > BOOOOOMMMM! > > They didn't even stop to tell me what I knew. Honestly, it worked, I took a train! > > -- > Peter Gargano From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:51:25 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:51:25 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: I own a 91 Mitsu Eclipse Turbo 5-speed, I've never had this problem, so I can't tell ya one way or another... I don't believe it has ever detonated, and I've ragged the heck outa the thing... It's currently down due to the lil hydraulic auto-adjusters which are supposed to keep the rockers 'adjusted' so the thing doesn't clatter, as it is currently.. Musta gotten some dirt in the oil or somethin... A mechanic said that if ANY foreign particles get into the oil on this engine, that these adjuster thingy majigs are the first to tell ya so! They're only $20 a peice and there are 16 OF EM!!!! So, as soon as I hit the lottery or somethin, I guess I'll be either drivin it again or sellin it!! Anyone interested? LATER! Todd....!! Dave Williams wrote: > > -> boost. I've heard all the theories about turning the fuel off > -> then back on, but they don't seem to apply with 16psi of > -> boost.. There is *significant* detonation as the injectors come back > -> on.. > > Mitsubishi uses fuel cut on its turbo fours. They don't detonate after > fuel resumes. > > Must be a GM programming problem. > From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:51:28 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:51:28 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: I think I've heard of this technique, but it creates HUGE clouds of black smoke and soot! Some people may find it a bit tasteless... I think this is why this technology you're referrin to hasn't really caught on by the masses! LATER! Todd....!! Tom Sharpe wrote: > > Why use a spark at all??? just squeeze it till it pops... Tom (Cat man) Sharpe > > Todd....!! wrote: > > > C'mon David...., > > > > They used to think it was impossible to travel to the moon, much less > > mars.... we've done it... > > > > They used to think a 4 minute mile was impossible... Done > > > > As well as a sub 4 second 1/4 run outof a piston engined dragster... > > Done > > > > etc, etc... > > > > Just as a thought, if your believe the limitation of runnin a non spark > > plug engine using the block and head as the anode and ground instead of > > a spark plug is because of the bolts and the water between em creating a > > connection, then we must insulate em, maybe even run two > > seperated(isolated) radiators, one for the head, one for the block... > > > > As for the bolts, use isolated anchors within the block or merely secure > > the heads onto the block via some sortof external mechanism...(like a > > vice) > > > > Most obstacles are easily overcome, if ya think the 'right' way.... > > > > Anything else? > > > > LATER! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > David A. Cooley wrote: > > > > > > > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and > > > > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all > > > > together due to not having a need for em anymore! > > > > > > > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically isolated from the heads > > > > fairly wasily with nonconductive head gaskets, etc... > > > > > > Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, water in the cooling jacket is > > > conductive etc... > > > It's basically an impossibility. From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 15:51:31 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:51:31 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Sounds like a winner to me man! Where would we purchase such a contraption, or at least where would we pick up the components? Thanks! LATER! Todd....!! Tom Sharpe wrote: > > Chew, Aaron wrote: > > > Alpha-n is a throttle-position and rpm fuel map control strategy. > > > > For a really simple system, Alpha_N with a quad set of pots to adjust things, > say idle to off idle(0% to +10%), cruse (+10 to +30), acceleration (+30 to +60) > and WOT. Just more screws to adjust than a standard carb.... add temperature > correction if you ride when it's cold or hot.. or a fifth pot for a global > weather adjustment. Sounds like an old Holley analog unit.. That's (IMHO) what > VW used in the 70's. Tom From realsquash at yahoo.com Mon May 24 16:20:41 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:20:41 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Actually deisels have caught on in most of the rest of the world, it seems. Andy --- "Todd....!!" wrote: > I think I've heard of this technique, but it creates > HUGE clouds of > black smoke and soot! Some people may find it a bit > tasteless... > > I think this is why this technology you're referrin > to hasn't really > caught on by the masses! > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > > Tom Sharpe wrote: > > > > Why use a spark at all??? just squeeze it till it > pops... Tom (Cat man) Sharpe > > > > Todd....!! wrote: > > > > > C'mon David...., > > > > > > They used to think it was impossible to travel > to the moon, much less > > > mars.... we've done it... > > > > > > They used to think a 4 minute mile was > impossible... Done > > > > > > As well as a sub 4 second 1/4 run outof a piston > engined dragster... > > > Done > > > > > > etc, etc... > > > > > > Just as a thought, if your believe the > limitation of runnin a non spark > > > plug engine using the block and head as the > anode and ground instead of > > > a spark plug is because of the bolts and the > water between em creating a > > > connection, then we must insulate em, maybe even > run two > > > seperated(isolated) radiators, one for the head, > one for the block... > > > > > > As for the bolts, use isolated anchors within > the block or merely secure > > > the heads onto the block via some sortof > external mechanism...(like a > > > vice) > > > > > > Most obstacles are easily overcome, if ya think > the 'right' way.... > > > > > > Anything else? > > > > > > LATER! > > > > > > Todd....!! > > > > > > David A. Cooley wrote: > > > > > > > > > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the > piston as the electrode and > > > > > the head as the ground or vice versus and > omit the spark plug all > > > > > together due to not having a need for em > anymore! > > > > > > > > > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically > isolated from the heads > > > > > fairly wasily with nonconductive head > gaskets, etc... > > > > > > > > Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, > water in the cooling jacket is > > > > conductive etc... > > > > It's basically an impossibility. > > > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From claresnyder at home.com Mon May 24 16:32:18 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:32:18 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 12:23 PM Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > Sounds like a painful operation to me!! > > ALSO, BTW - FYI - Found a HUGE IMPERIAL cruisin in the junk yard > universe this weekend, and it has a HEMI IN IT!! > > HOWEVER it's an old 50's or early 60's at the latest car, I can't tell > what year it is.. but the distributor is in the rear of the hemi, which > means that is ain't a 426(426's dist is in the front like the newer > mopar BB's) So the question now is, is this engine truly a 392 or just > a 331...? > 392 was used in '57 and '58. '56 was a 353. '51 to '55 were 331. Single headlights up to '56. > EITHER way, it IS a hemi and it is HUGE! NO ONE will be able to tel the > diff tween it and a REAL 426 hemi except for the distributor sittin in > the back! > > Anybody know how to tell what year the car is or whether or not the > engine is a 331 or 392 hemi? > > They only want $300 for it, and that's still negotiable... > > Will be checkin for info on how to tell what this engine is... > > May just have ta pull a head to check the bore and pull the crank to > check the stroke or somethin... the bore should tell me nuff? Will be > gettin the specs and differences tween the 331 and 392 as well... > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > Actually, the plug location in a Hemi is bad because it is off to one side. > > > Its the best you can do with a Hemi but its still bad. As a result it needs > > > > >From what I've read a not so uncommon mod for all out racing is to drill > > and tap another spark plug hole... but I've not found anything on the > > net about it. Someone who was slightly intoxicated mentioned this to me > > in a bar a year or so ago. > > > From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Mon May 24 17:17:40 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:17:40 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: At 09:05 AM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks for that input David... > >However, I DID say CAR ya know? > >Mopar Trucks come with V-10's but only one car comes with one... the >Viper... They SHOULD'VE put the V-10 in the Prowler... I like the >looks, but the power's lackin on the prowler, I'm sure.... I think even the 318 or 360 in the prowler would have been a better choice than the V6... =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Mon May 24 17:19:08 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:19:08 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: On Mon, 24 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > Thanks for the info Jim!, > > As for the B/RB block not having the provisions for cross bolts, that > can be SIMPLY remedied by my good ol handy n durable Black n decker > drill! LOL! > The hemi block has a lot more metal in the area where the cross bolts go. You could put the bolts into a non-hemi block, but they would not add much strength, in fact they would probably crack the block when under load. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Mon May 24 17:20:08 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:20:08 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: At 10:22 AM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote: >I think I've heard of this technique, but it creates HUGE clouds of >black smoke and soot! Some people may find it a bit tasteless... > >I think this is why this technology you're referrin to hasn't really >caught on by the masses! Actually, this is the description of the diesel. Compress the air to 500+ degrees then spray the fuel in. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Mon May 24 17:20:36 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:20:36 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: Shannen Durphey wrote: > Now, I'm in a closed shop. We get a little bit of customer work, and > I try to be at the desk whenever it comes in. It's a good idea to at > least show yourself to the car owner, IMHO. > Shannen You should have moved to Austin. It'd be nice to have a mechanic around that I knew/could trust... :-) --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Mon May 24 17:26:20 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 13:26:20 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: On Mon, 24 May 1999, David A. Cooley wrote: > I think even the 318 or 360 in the prowler would have been a better choice > than the V6... Having just had a good look at a Prowler, there is no room for a V8... From realsquash at yahoo.com Mon May 24 18:16:08 1999 From: realsquash at yahoo.com (Squash) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:16:08 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: --- Jim Davies wrote: > Having just had a good look at a Prowler, there is > no room for a V8... Then it shoulda been designed differently! Andy p.s. a v-10 in the prowler would be quite dangerous. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Mon May 24 19:29:08 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:29:08 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > I think even the 318 or 360 in the prowler would have been a better choice > than the V6... When Chrysler made the thing publically available, they clearly stated they went for styling, not performance. And they have achieved that... slow-ass acceleration with a 50's rodder kinda look. -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Mon May 24 19:29:58 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:29:58 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > Viper... They SHOULD'VE put the V-10 in the Prowler... I like the > looks, but the power's lackin on the prowler, I'm sure.... Based on the design, it wouldn't have fit... and with the V6 its insurable :) -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 19:45:14 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:45:14 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: >From personal experience, out of my entire family, we've only had like ONE diesel, it was a delta 88 or somethin back in the late 70's early 80's, it threw a rod before we were done with it... Later.... Todd....!! Squash wrote: > > Actually deisels have caught on in most of the rest of > the world, it seems. > > Andy > > --- "Todd....!!" wrote: > > I think I've heard of this technique, but it creates > > HUGE clouds of > > black smoke and soot! Some people may find it a bit > > tasteless... > > > > I think this is why this technology you're referrin > > to hasn't really > > caught on by the masses! > > > > LATER! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > Tom Sharpe wrote: > > > > > > Why use a spark at all??? just squeeze it till it > > pops... Tom (Cat man) Sharpe > > > > > > Todd....!! wrote: > > > > > > > C'mon David...., > > > > > > > > They used to think it was impossible to travel > > to the moon, much less > > > > mars.... we've done it... > > > > > > > > They used to think a 4 minute mile was > > impossible... Done > > > > > > > > As well as a sub 4 second 1/4 run outof a piston > > engined dragster... > > > > Done > > > > > > > > etc, etc... > > > > > > > > Just as a thought, if your believe the > > limitation of runnin a non spark > > > > plug engine using the block and head as the > > anode and ground instead of > > > > a spark plug is because of the bolts and the > > water between em creating a > > > > connection, then we must insulate em, maybe even > > run two > > > > seperated(isolated) radiators, one for the head, > > one for the block... > > > > > > > > As for the bolts, use isolated anchors within > > the block or merely secure > > > > the heads onto the block via some sortof > > external mechanism...(like a > > > > vice) > > > > > > > > Most obstacles are easily overcome, if ya think > > the 'right' way.... > > > > > > > > Anything else? > > > > > > > > LATER! > > > > > > > > Todd....!! > > > > > > > > David A. Cooley wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the > > piston as the electrode and > > > > > > the head as the ground or vice versus and > > omit the spark plug all > > > > > > together due to not having a need for em > > anymore! > > > > > > > > > > > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically > > isolated from the heads > > > > > > fairly wasily with nonconductive head > > gaskets, etc... > > > > > > > > > > Actually, they can't. Head bolts are metal, > > water in the cooling jacket is > > > > > conductive etc... > > > > > It's basically an impossibility. > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 19:45:17 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:45:17 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: So, the 392 was only in TWO years of cars? It could be that year, but it looks older than a 58, will verify! Maybe I'll take a dig pic of the thing and post it on one of my sites and ask ya'll to look at it and tell me wxactly what year the beast is!? My Bee would look REALLY COOL with a HEMI in it! Thanks! Todd....!! CLsnyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd....!! > To: > Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 12:23 PM > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > Sounds like a painful operation to me!! > > > > ALSO, BTW - FYI - Found a HUGE IMPERIAL cruisin in the junk yard > > universe this weekend, and it has a HEMI IN IT!! > > > > HOWEVER it's an old 50's or early 60's at the latest car, I can't tell > > what year it is.. but the distributor is in the rear of the hemi, which > > means that is ain't a 426(426's dist is in the front like the newer > > mopar BB's) So the question now is, is this engine truly a 392 or just > > a 331...? > > > 392 was used in '57 and '58. '56 was a 353. '51 to '55 were 331. > > Single headlights up to '56. > > EITHER way, it IS a hemi and it is HUGE! NO ONE will be able to tel the > > diff tween it and a REAL 426 hemi except for the distributor sittin in > > the back! > > > > Anybody know how to tell what year the car is or whether or not the > > engine is a 331 or 392 hemi? > > > > They only want $300 for it, and that's still negotiable... > > > > Will be checkin for info on how to tell what this engine is... > > > > May just have ta pull a head to check the bore and pull the crank to > > check the stroke or somethin... the bore should tell me nuff? Will be > > gettin the specs and differences tween the 331 and 392 as well... > > > > LATER! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > > > Actually, the plug location in a Hemi is bad because it is off to one > side. > > > > Its the best you can do with a Hemi but its still bad. As a result it > needs > > > > > > >From what I've read a not so uncommon mod for all out racing is to > drill > > > and tap another spark plug hole... but I've not found anything on the > > > net about it. Someone who was slightly intoxicated mentioned this to me > > > in a bar a year or so ago. > > > > > > From spectro at ma.ultranet.com Mon May 24 20:09:33 1999 From: spectro at ma.ultranet.com (SPECTRO COATING CORP.) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:09:33 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: If you really want cross bolted caps in a wedge then ProGram makes a set that are designed to work w/ the wedge block. But it's not a Black and Decker deal. You have to put the block in a mill and fit it for the caps to mate up. While you're there you may as well add provisions for the Stage V hemi heads ;) BTW - a Rat Roaster is probably THE worst manifold to try to adapt to EFI - it has a top plate that would interfere with the injectors - a tunnel ram would be MUCH easier. If you still have your heart set on it then I'd suggest you go look at a GM CPI 4.3L V-6. That would probably be easier to do FWIW - Jason > >On Mon, 24 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > >> Thanks for the info Jim!, >> >> As for the B/RB block not having the provisions for cross bolts, that >> can be SIMPLY remedied by my good ol handy n durable Black n decker >> drill! LOL! >> >The hemi block has a lot more metal in the area where the cross bolts go. >You could put the bolts into a non-hemi block, but they would not add much >strength, in fact they would probably crack the block when under load. From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 20:17:51 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:17:51 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Jim ya silly person you..., That's what a Sawz-all, pneumatic sheetmetal shears, die grinder, mig welder, and sledge hammers are for....you know that! OR That's what Resin's for mang? The engine MAY have to stick out a bit.... Wouldn't it look perty with some BIG OL HEMI heads stickout the sides? Will have to measure and see just how MUCH of the Hemi will be stickin out.... As of now, the Prowler's pretty much ALL SHOW n NO GO, don't ya think? At LEAST put a turbo or supercharger on the el lame-o 6, ya know? LATER! Todd.... ------------------ Jim Davies wrote: > > On Mon, 24 May 1999, David A. Cooley wrote: > > > I think even the 318 or 360 in the prowler would have been a better choice > > than the V6... > > Having just had a good look at a Prowler, there is no room for a V8... From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 20:17:53 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:17:53 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: OK David, Ya just made me think of a question havin to do with the 'diesel' principle that you just stated.... Most diesels' static compression ratio's are pretty much over 20:1 right? Why don't they just squirt regular fuel in at these temps instead of diesel? What would happen? It seems like it'd be possible!! What's the diff? REALLY? Thanks! LATER! Todd.....!! David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 10:22 AM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote: > >I think I've heard of this technique, but it creates HUGE clouds of > >black smoke and soot! Some people may find it a bit tasteless... > > > >I think this is why this technology you're referrin to hasn't really > >caught on by the masses! > > Actually, this is the description of the diesel. > > Compress the air to 500+ degrees then spray the fuel in. > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 20:17:55 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:17:55 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: EXACTLY! GREAT point indeed! They MUST'VE had a reason for this! Doubt the reason was SPACE savings! What's another piston do to the length of an engine, maybe 4 to 6 inches longer MAX? I wonder what the diff in the engine mounting locations are? A welder would fix whatever the diffs are... maybe even make the sucker a rear/mid engine? Just a thought... Fred may have a bit of input on this one, since he IS in the process of writing a book about creatin POWERFUL Hi Po cars from SCRATCH!! What's the diff in tq n HP 'tween the 6 that's in the prowler vs. the 360? Thanks! Later!, Todd....!! David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 09:05 AM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Thanks for that input David... > > > >However, I DID say CAR ya know? > > > >Mopar Trucks come with V-10's but only one car comes with one... the > >Viper... They SHOULD'VE put the V-10 in the Prowler... I like the > >looks, but the power's lackin on the prowler, I'm sure.... > > I think even the 318 or 360 in the prowler would have been a better choice > than the V6... > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From claresnyder at home.com Mon May 24 20:25:40 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:25:40 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 5:29 PM Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > So, the 392 was only in TWO years of cars? Yup, 2 years only - Chrysler New Yorker, 300C, and Imperial only. Dual Quads on the 300C only. > > It could be that year, but it looks older than a 58, will verify! Get me a picture, I'll tell you the year. If you can get the serial number off the left front door hinge pillar it will help . > > Maybe I'll take a dig pic of the thing and post it on one of my sites > and ask ya'll to look at it and tell me wxactly what year the beast is!? > > My Bee would look REALLY COOL with a HEMI in it! > > Thanks! > > Todd....!! > > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Todd....!! > > To: > > Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 12:23 PM > > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > > > Sounds like a painful operation to me!! > > > > > > ALSO, BTW - FYI - Found a HUGE IMPERIAL cruisin in the junk yard > > > universe this weekend, and it has a HEMI IN IT!! > > > > > > HOWEVER it's an old 50's or early 60's at the latest car, I can't tell > > > what year it is.. but the distributor is in the rear of the hemi, which > > > means that is ain't a 426(426's dist is in the front like the newer > > > mopar BB's) So the question now is, is this engine truly a 392 or just > > > a 331...? > > > > > 392 was used in '57 and '58. '56 was a 353. '51 to '55 were 331. > > > > Single headlights up to '56. > > > EITHER way, it IS a hemi and it is HUGE! NO ONE will be able to tel the > > > diff tween it and a REAL 426 hemi except for the distributor sittin in > > > the back! > > > > > > Anybody know how to tell what year the car is or whether or not the > > > engine is a 331 or 392 hemi? > > > > > > They only want $300 for it, and that's still negotiable... > > > > > > Will be checkin for info on how to tell what this engine is... > > > > > > May just have ta pull a head to check the bore and pull the crank to > > > check the stroke or somethin... the bore should tell me nuff? Will be > > > gettin the specs and differences tween the 331 and 392 as well... > > > > > > LATER! > > > > > > Todd....!! > > > > > > > > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > > > > > Actually, the plug location in a Hemi is bad because it is off to one > > side. > > > > > Its the best you can do with a Hemi but its still bad. As a result it > > needs > > > > > > > > >From what I've read a not so uncommon mod for all out racing is to > > drill > > > > and tap another spark plug hole... but I've not found anything on the > > > > net about it. Someone who was slightly intoxicated mentioned this to me > > > > in a bar a year or so ago. > > > > > > > > > > > From atc347 at c-com.net Mon May 24 21:12:38 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:12:38 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: I put a 400 s.b.c. in a 2-door 1981 Chevette, talk about dangerous... Used the original rear end, so it was pretty tame at launch due to it being an open rear end, but once it hit second, I'd let off the gas and romp it again and have FULL traction! Whoopeeee.... It weighed 2,345 lbs. after the install, also used the TH375 auto outa the Impala Wagon as well... The driveshaft was about 2 to 3 ft. long! The Chevette's rear end housing has a REALLY ong front end on it, at LEAST a foot long! maybe longer! COOL? LATER! Todd...! Squash wrote: > > --- Jim Davies wrote: > > Having just had a good look at a Prowler, there is > > no room for a V8... > > Then it shoulda been designed differently! > > Andy > p.s. a v-10 in the prowler would be quite dangerous. > > _____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com From Tedscj at aol.com Mon May 24 21:19:47 1999 From: Tedscj at aol.com (Tedscj at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:19:47 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: In a message dated 5/24/99, 11:54:37 AM, diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: <> Try www.powerplayhemi.com/idengine.htm The engine serial # is at the front of the block, just in front of the oil filler/breather tube. Also, if it has LARGE fins you will know it is a '56-'58 which will be a 354 or 392ci. If not, then it is a -'55, which will be a 331ci. And again a quad headlamp set-up in '58. Ted From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Mon May 24 21:24:33 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:24:33 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: At 02:55 PM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote: >OK David, > >Ya just made me think of a question havin to do with the 'diesel' >principle that you just stated.... > >Most diesels' static compression ratio's are pretty much over 20:1 >right? > For the most part... some turbo diesels are 18:1 or so, but normally aspirated diesels are 22:1 to 25:1 CR >Why don't they just squirt regular fuel in at these temps instead of >diesel? > the rate of combustion would be too high and the detonation resistance too low... Basically would blow the heads right off the engine! (Seen it happen on a mercedes 300D... guy filled up with Regular gas and drove off... about a block later, heard a large BOOM and he was at the side of the road with lots of smoke... Opened the hood and it appeared to have sheared the head bolts... head was about 1/4" above the block!) =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Mon May 24 21:25:41 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:25:41 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: At 03:02 PM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote: > >What's the diff in tq n HP 'tween the 6 that's in the prowler vs. the >360? I think the V6 is about 200HP and 200 Lb/ft... the 360 I've seen in the trucks is 250 or so HP and 280 or so Lb/ft (If I'm remembering the right engine!) =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From NBailey at aetrium-fsa.com Mon May 24 21:57:15 1999 From: NBailey at aetrium-fsa.com (Neal Bailey) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:57:15 -0400 Subject: EEC-IV Schematics & Pinout Message-ID: Hello, I am new to the list. :o) I Have a Question... I was wondering if anyone out there would know where I could possible get the schematics and pinout of the EEC-IV Computer. I would like to start my own project . Any info would be great... Thanks. Neal From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Mon May 24 22:03:02 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:03:02 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: howdy. what do you guys use to clean up the block head bolt holes ? it would be criminal to torque my shiny heads to all that crud down there, which I think exits to the water jacket and or the oil pan ? especially with the arp thread sealer/lube on them. I see that snap on has a thread chaser tool set, rtd-42, however I can't seem to find a local snap on guy to buy it from. compressed air would blow that junk down into my engine beyond any doubt. so if you were doing a valve job, what do you use ? thanks, Ted Stowe From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 24 22:08:17 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:08:17 -0400 Subject: EEC-IV Schematics & Pinout Message-ID: Subject: EEC-IV Schematics & Pinout There is a list just for them (or was), if you look in the archives for Tom Cloud, he might be able to point you there. Grumpy | Hello, I am new to the list. :o) | | I Have a Question... | I was wondering if anyone out there would know | where I could possible get the schematics and pinout | of the EEC-IV Computer. I would like to start my own | project . Any info would be great... Thanks. | | Neal | | | From mwichstr at online.no Mon May 24 22:18:18 1999 From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:18:18 -0400 Subject: Message from CSH. HQ Message-ID: Dear Bruce. Good luck, pal. Please .....get well soon! :-) Espen > Bruce: > I'll look forward to resumption of your wonderful posts -- looking > back on a terrifying experience rather than forward to it. Best wishes. > > Charlie Iliff From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Mon May 24 22:47:06 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:47:06 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > rear/mid engine? Just a thought... Fred may have a bit of input on this > one, since he IS in the process of writing a book about creatin > POWERFUL Hi Po cars from SCRATCH!! My opinion: For drag racing, front engines tend to be better because the weight of the engine (down) opposes the torque of the rear wheels rotating forces (lifting the front) For rally racing, mid-engine is better, because the weight can be moved around so you have as close to 50/50 as you can. The advantages of this is is multiple. You don't have to build too much anti-dive into the front end thus affecting your left-right handling in a more positive way. Appears to be less of a sacrifice. Remember that suspension tuning is all about trade offs... you trade different aspects of handing for others, even in an "optimal" design. Of course, your optimal might be different than mine :) > What's the diff in tq n HP 'tween the 6 that's in the prowler vs. the > 360? Prowler is 200ish HP and the 360 varies from 160 to 300 depending on the year, carb setup, compression, etc. And it weighs more. From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Mon May 24 22:56:41 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:56:41 -0400 Subject: EEC-IV Schematics & Pinout Message-ID: Have a look at the diy_efi page (efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu.diy_efi) click on OEM then click on Ford. Also, search in the archives. there's not as much going on here with Ford as there is for GM. --steve Neal Bailey wrote: > > Hello, I am new to the list. :o) > > I Have a Question... > I was wondering if anyone out there would know > where I could possible get the schematics and pinout > of the EEC-IV Computer. I would like to start my own > project . Any info would be great... Thanks. > > Neal -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From rap at aci.net Mon May 24 23:01:24 1999 From: rap at aci.net (..) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:01:24 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: You need to check the numbers on the block to be sure, a lot of engines get swapped out over time. Secondly, to make that old hemi perform you have to spend bundles of bucks. Those old long and flimsy stock rockers have to go and the replacements are very expensive (big time), along with triple valve springs that you need; that is unless you want a low rev truck engine. Then you'll need to replace the old worn pistons with some forged slugs (you'll have to bore it anyway to straighten out those old tapered-by-time cylinders). Add at least a roller chain timing set (or gear drive). Then comes the cam - you gotta be careful here. Those old hemi's can be made to give you gobs of mid and top and power with the right cam - but you'll give away bottom end torque. So plan on driving around with a 2800-3000 stall convertor (and not the old slush box that came with that hemi) - good luck finding an adapter. Outside of cleaning the mice nests out of the intakes, just clean them up a bit - don't even look at the cost of replacement race heads unless you're REAL serious. In short, you'll be Time, Money and Power ahead by picking up a factory long block and building from there. Much stronger bottom end for one thing and they breathe like crazy!! Or- put less then half as much money in your existing wedge and you'll have almost as much power, certainly more usable street power. There was/is no magic in those old hemi's (in 1958/59 my brother ran a 392 in his '40 Ford coupe and developed fair sized arm muscles from steering that old nose heavy beast). rap "Todd....!!" wrote: > So, the 392 was only in TWO years of cars? > > It could be that year, but it looks older than a 58, will verify! > > Maybe I'll take a dig pic of the thing and post it on one of my sites > and ask ya'll to look at it and tell me wxactly what year the beast is!? > > My Bee would look REALLY COOL with a HEMI in it! > > Thanks! > > Todd....!! > > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Todd....!! > > To: > > Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 12:23 PM > > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > > > Sounds like a painful operation to me!! > > > > > > ALSO, BTW - FYI - Found a HUGE IMPERIAL cruisin in the junk yard > > > universe this weekend, and it has a HEMI IN IT!! > > > > > > HOWEVER it's an old 50's or early 60's at the latest car, I can't tell > > > what year it is.. but the distributor is in the rear of the hemi, which > > > means that is ain't a 426(426's dist is in the front like the newer > > > mopar BB's) So the question now is, is this engine truly a 392 or just > > > a 331...? > > > > > 392 was used in '57 and '58. '56 was a 353. '51 to '55 were 331. > > > > Single headlights up to '56. > > > EITHER way, it IS a hemi and it is HUGE! NO ONE will be able to tel the > > > diff tween it and a REAL 426 hemi except for the distributor sittin in > > > the back! > > > > > > Anybody know how to tell what year the car is or whether or not the > > > engine is a 331 or 392 hemi? > > > > > > They only want $300 for it, and that's still negotiable... > > > > > > Will be checkin for info on how to tell what this engine is... > > > > > > May just have ta pull a head to check the bore and pull the crank to > > > check the stroke or somethin... the bore should tell me nuff? Will be > > > gettin the specs and differences tween the 331 and 392 as well... > > > > > > LATER! > > > > > > Todd....!! > > > > > > > > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > > > > > Actually, the plug location in a Hemi is bad because it is off to one > > side. > > > > > Its the best you can do with a Hemi but its still bad. As a result it > > needs > > > > > > > > >From what I've read a not so uncommon mod for all out racing is to > > drill > > > > and tap another spark plug hole... but I've not found anything on the > > > > net about it. Someone who was slightly intoxicated mentioned this to me > > > > in a bar a year or so ago. > > > > > > > > > From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Mon May 24 23:42:52 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:42:52 -0400 Subject: butterfly valves Message-ID: Does anyone have a typical chart of flow vs. valve angle for round butterfly valves? I thought this would be something I could look up in my shelf of engineering handbooks, but I've come up with nothing useful. I expect the flow would be highly nonlinear; I'm just trying to come up with a rough table to start off with for a delta-TPS injection setup. From gderian at oh.verio.com Mon May 24 23:45:34 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:45:34 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Diesel fuel needs to burn easily so it ignites the instant it is injected to produce a nice flame from the injector. Gasoline is made to resist ignition so it doesn't ignite until after the spark fires. Gasoline in a diesel will form a cloud of fuel in the chamber then detonate in a really big bang. Its funny how fuel made to resist detonation in a spark ignition engine detonates badly in a compression ignition engine and vice versa. Gary Derian > Ya just made me think of a question havin to do with the 'diesel' > principle that you just stated.... > > Most diesels' static compression ratio's are pretty much over 20:1 > right? > > Why don't they just squirt regular fuel in at these temps instead of > diesel? > > What would happen? > > It seems like it'd be possible!! > > What's the diff? > > REALLY? > > Thanks! > > LATER! > > Todd.....!! > From gderian at oh.verio.com Tue May 25 00:02:04 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:02:04 -0400 Subject: butterfly valves Message-ID: An engine creates a much higher vacuum behind a nearly closed throttle than a nearly open one. This greatly aggravates the non-linearity of the flow. A variable linkage to slow down the throttle angle change per pedal movement when nearly closed would help. There are many techniques to do this. Some auto makers make the linkage do the opposite to make a car feel faster. To calculate flow against a constant vacuum, a close approximation could be made by measuring or calculating the effective area of the opening. Gary Derian > > Does anyone have a typical chart of flow vs. valve angle for round > butterfly valves? I thought this would be something I could look up in > my shelf of engineering handbooks, but I've come up with nothing useful. > > I expect the flow would be highly nonlinear; I'm just trying to come up > with a rough table to start off with for a delta-TPS injection setup. > From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 25 00:21:32 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:21:32 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Todd....!! wrote: > > Hi Grumpy, > > I was wonderin how ya came to get that nicname? > Spend time reading some archives posts, look for CSH and programming 101, if ya wish to get the full effect. Shannen From AL8001 at aol.com Tue May 25 00:37:04 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:37:04 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: The 99 Prowler has the all aluminum 3.5L V6 also used in the LHS and 300M. The drive line of a Prowler consists of a front engine and a rear mounted trans axel. Similar to a Porsche 924/944, 928 and the 65 Tempest. 3.5L all aluminum DOHC V6 253 HP @ 6,400 255 FT @ 3,950. It also has a dual tuned intake system to give a broad power curve. Compression is around 10 to 1. Sounds like enough for a 2,800 Lb street cruser to me. The 98 and older Prowler has a lesser 3.5L V6 cast iron block with a aluminum head. Power (SAE Net) 214 bhp (157 kW) @ 5850 rpm Torque (SAE Net) 221 lb ft (303 Nm) @ 3100 rpm Max Engine Speed 6464 rpm Harold From ECMnut at aol.com Tue May 25 00:41:09 1999 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:41:09 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: Hi Ted, don't you simply use a tap in the bolt holes to clean them? MIke V > > what do you guys use to clean up the block head bolt holes ? > it would be criminal to torque my shiny heads to all that crud down there, > which I think exits to the water jacket and or the oil pan ? especially with > the arp thread sealer/lube on them. > > I see that snap on has a thread chaser tool set, rtd-42, however I can't > seem to find a local snap on guy to buy it from. > > compressed air would blow that junk down into my engine beyond any doubt. > > so if you were doing a valve job, what do you use ? > > thanks, Ted Stowe From jurg at 2.sbbs.se Tue May 25 00:45:55 1999 From: jurg at 2.sbbs.se (=?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?=) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:45:55 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Todd...!! wrote: > Ya just made me think of a question havin to do with the 'diesel' > principle that you just stated.... > > Most diesels' static compression ratio's are pretty much over 20:1 > right? > > Why don't they just squirt regular fuel in at these temps instead of > diesel? > > What would happen? > > It seems like it'd be possible!! Mitsubish and Volvo does it, it dosen't seem to give them any large benefits, with a turbo and 50psi or so of boost it might be fun:). From clive at problem.tantech.com Tue May 25 00:46:33 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:46:33 -0400 Subject: butterfly valves Message-ID: > > > Does anyone have a typical chart of flow vs. valve angle for round > butterfly valves? I thought this would be something I could look up in > my shelf of engineering handbooks, but I've come up with nothing useful. the area could be calculated using calculus the # would be circle area - 2x [area section for 1/2 cylinder at angle y] angle y would be the only variable might be simpler to calculate the area than use a table the flow could be related to vacuum @ area vs RPM > I expect the flow would be highly nonlinear; I'm just trying to come up > with a rough table to start off with for a delta-TPS injection setup. probably 4th order Clive From dapiper at one.net Tue May 25 01:10:53 1999 From: dapiper at one.net (David Piper) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:10:53 -0400 Subject: butterfly valves Message-ID: Provide FAX no and I will send Cv vs angle TurboDave > Does anyone have a typical chart of flow vs. valve angle for round >butterfly valves? TurboDave (aka DynoDave) David A Piper, owner Performance Chassis Dyno 239 Beverly Road Greenville, SC 29609 864-322-2737 From rap at aci.net Tue May 25 01:12:44 1999 From: rap at aci.net (..) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:12:44 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: Use a "bottoming tap" it cleans the threads almost to the very bottom of the cavity. rap "Stowe, Ted-SEA" wrote: > howdy. > > what do you guys use to clean up the block head bolt holes ? > it would be criminal to torque my shiny heads to all that crud down there, > which I think exits to the water jacket and or the oil pan ? especially with > the arp thread sealer/lube on them. > > I see that snap on has a thread chaser tool set, rtd-42, however I can't > seem to find a local snap on guy to buy it from. > > compressed air would blow that junk down into my engine beyond any doubt. > > so if you were doing a valve job, what do you use ? > > thanks, Ted Stowe From rap at aci.net Tue May 25 01:20:51 1999 From: rap at aci.net (..) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:20:51 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Almost as dangerous as the dude that used to run about Pensacola, Fl. when I lived there with the 427 Chev where the rear seat of a Chevette once resided; tube frame and tubbed rear end and all. By the way, how many feet did the Chevette rear end last on a good launch???? 10, maybe 15??? rap "Todd....!!" wrote: > I put a 400 s.b.c. in a 2-door 1981 Chevette, talk about dangerous... > > Used the original rear end, so it was pretty tame at launch due to it > being an open rear end, but once it hit second, I'd let off the gas and > romp it again and have FULL traction! Whoopeeee.... > > It weighed 2,345 lbs. after the install, also used the TH375 auto outa > the Impala Wagon as well... > > The driveshaft was about 2 to 3 ft. long! The Chevette's rear end > housing has a REALLY ong front end on it, at LEAST a foot long! maybe > longer! > > COOL? > > LATER! > From dsginter at Oakland.edu Tue May 25 01:27:45 1999 From: dsginter at Oakland.edu (Darren Ginter) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:27:45 -0400 Subject: Need help with board selection Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEA690.1DC984C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I'm new to the DIY_EFI stuff but I am interested in working on an EFI = project. The only problem is that I only want to do the software aspect = of it and simply purchase complete, over the counter hardware. Doesn anyone have any recommendations? I'm not looking to spend a whole = lot but I will go the extra mile for good technology. I *really* like = the MPC555 but can't really find much in the way of a setup that I can = get going right away on. Any help is appreciated. Darren ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEA690.1DC984C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,
 
I'm new to the DIY_EFI stuff but I am = interested in=20 working on an EFI project.  The only problem is that I only want to = do the=20 software aspect of it and simply purchase complete, over the = counter=20 hardware.
 
Doesn anyone have any = recommendations?  I'm=20 not looking to spend a whole lot but I will go the extra mile for good=20 technology.  I *really* like the MPC555 but can't really find much = in the=20 way of a setup that I can get going right away on.
 
Any help is appreciated.
 
Darren
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEA690.1DC984C0-- From David_f_edwards at msn.com Tue May 25 01:37:12 1999 From: David_f_edwards at msn.com (David) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:37:12 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: Ted, I use a tap in a battery drill after I blow it out with air. I use a very low speed. Speeds things up greatly. David -----Original Message----- From: Stowe, Ted-SEA To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 5:10 PM Subject: v8 block thread cleaning | |howdy. | |what do you guys use to clean up the block head bolt holes ? |it would be criminal to torque my shiny heads to all that crud down there, |which I think exits to the water jacket and or the oil pan ? especially with |the arp thread sealer/lube on them. | |I see that snap on has a thread chaser tool set, rtd-42, however I can't |seem to find a local snap on guy to buy it from. | |compressed air would blow that junk down into my engine beyond any doubt. | |so if you were doing a valve job, what do you use ? | |thanks, Ted Stowe | From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 25 01:39:13 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:39:13 -0400 Subject: EGR? Message-ID: steve ravet wrote: > > Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > Now, I'm in a closed shop. We get a little bit of customer work, and > > I try to be at the desk whenever it comes in. It's a good idea to at > > least show yourself to the car owner, IMHO. > > Shannen > > You should have moved to Austin. It'd be nice to have a mechanic around > that I knew/could trust... :-) > Hee hee. Knowin me and trustin me don't always go hand in hand. ; ) Shannen > --steve > > -- > Steve Ravet > steve.ravet at arm.com > Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. > www.arm.com From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 25 01:57:57 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:57:57 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 02:55 PM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote: > >OK David, > > > >Ya just made me think of a question havin to do with the 'diesel' > >principle that you just stated.... > > > >Most diesels' static compression ratio's are pretty much over 20:1 > >right? > > > > For the most part... some turbo diesels are 18:1 or so, but normally > aspirated diesels are 22:1 to 25:1 CR > Pretty sure I've seen low compression ag diesels. Thought the "ether startable" big diesels were pretty low compression also. Not so sure, now. Shannen > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 25 02:08:22 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:08:22 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > howdy. > > what do you guys use to clean up the block head bolt holes ? > it would be criminal to torque my shiny heads to all that crud down there, > which I think exits to the water jacket and or the oil pan ? especially with > the arp thread sealer/lube on them. > > I see that snap on has a thread chaser tool set, rtd-42, however I can't > seem to find a local snap on guy to buy it from. > > compressed air would blow that junk down into my engine beyond any doubt. > > so if you were doing a valve job, what do you use ? > > thanks, Ted Stowe I have a 3 piece tap set from Snap-on, all the taps are bottoming type. I also have a fancy thread chaser set. Before I got those tools, I used standard taps to clean out bolt holes. Shannen From eclark at hoser.com Tue May 25 03:23:48 1999 From: eclark at hoser.com (eclark at hoser.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:23:48 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: On Mon, 24 May 1999 AL8001 at aol.com wrote: > The 99 Prowler has the all aluminum 3.5L V6 also used in the LHS and 300M. > The drive line of a Prowler consists of a front engine and a rear mounted > trans axel. Similar to a Porsche 924/944, 928 and the 65 Tempest. Dont forget the C5 Corvette. -Eric From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com Tue May 25 03:37:48 1999 From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:37:48 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck dilemma Message-ID: Hi People, I have spent an entire day trying to diagnose a problem, to no avail. When the engine starts it runs fine for approx 10 seconds,then starts running extremely rich.....I then rev it up to "clean" it out and block learns and integrators are reasonable (123-125) then gradually returning to idle all numbers stay within reason and again will idle fine now for about 3-4 seconds then whammo rich again, I was fortunate enough to have the exact year and truck to start swapping parts with.....here is a list of what I have checked or changed.... Fuel Pressure steady at 13 when problem is occuring or not TPS voltage steady, no intermittent highs or lows Map Voltage steady, no intermittent highs or lows......even tried another Coil coil was tried from other truck....supply voltage 13+ Tach lead disconnected from coil to verify no shorting of tach Throttle Body and injectors were exhanged for the other truck BHMX (matching)computer chip tried from other truck Computer tried from other truck Distributor tried from other truck EGR checked for leaks and even blocked off at one point to verify idle problem Temp sensor checked on scanner to verify no intermittent jumps Knock circuit checked on scanner to verify no intermittent jumps Timing verified and verified 10 degree jump with rpm(wire pulled) still changed dist later Spark plugs changed....compression checked ,all within 20 lbs of each other. Another shop had already replaced cap, rotor, wires, and plugs... to try to fix problem. Customer had just come from muffler shop and had new o2 sensor, y pipe and cat back system installed since previous shop had told him he had a plugged cat. Stored data on the scanner of 75 frames prior to engine stumble and 25 after ....looked at every frame and compared all data points to see what voltages had moved or even if vss had somehow gone crazy...... All this and no codes on the scanner (unless you let it idle poorly so long it sets the high map voltage code) The above is not in the order of which things were changed...just trying to recall from a very frustrating day. At the end of the day I got the idea it has to be some sort of a grounding problem and the only grounds I know of on the engine are the two small ones near the thermostat, the two on the passenger rear of engine(one goes to the chassis from the engine and one goes to the frame)and the main battery ground cable......All seems ok.....but maybe there's more I am missing here......I then unhooked the battery for a few minutes (last ditch effort) and truck started and ran normally this time for 7-8 minutes,,,not seconds..........One last thing is this truck has had lots of stereo put in it and lots of capacitors for noise......if anyone can give me a spot to look tomorrow I would sure appreciate it and get back to the group with my findings......Thanks in advance. -Carl Summers From chris_beasley at mindspring.com Tue May 25 03:53:05 1999 From: chris_beasley at mindspring.com (Christopher J Beasley) Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:53:05 -0400 Subject: NTK UEGO response Message-ID: Gar Willis wrote:snip > You will see that the assembled meter will ALSO be aggressively priced to kick > competitive butt with the NTK-interface, Horiba, E.C.M., etc.'s lowest end > devices as well, AND provide better functionality for the far fewer bucks. The > idea is that NOW, there is enough of a market to go for some volume, instead of > treating them as high-end devices only racing teams are interested in/can > afford. The times, they are a-changin. So can I assume that the Honda sensor being referred to is a true wide band O2 sensor? And that the "modules" are the associated electronice? And that a "meter" would be an associated display? Will there be a group buy in the offing? Cheers! Beez From trevor.jackson at dsto.defence.gov.au Tue May 25 07:08:02 1999 From: trevor.jackson at dsto.defence.gov.au (Jackson, Trevor) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 03:08:02 -0400 Subject: Nissan Pulsar ET Turbo - HF8311 Transistor used for ignition? Message-ID: I'm trying to help a friend fix his Pulsar ET Turbo - It appears as thought the transistor used to switch the coil is stuffed. It's a HF8311. Does anyone know what it is and where I can get some info on it? - I've searched the web a bit and can't find anything. Trevor From FHPSTANG1 at aol.com Tue May 25 07:59:25 1999 From: FHPSTANG1 at aol.com (FHPSTANG1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 03:59:25 -0400 Subject: EEC-IV Schematics & Pinout Message-ID: Chilton Manual! At the end of the wiring diagrams for each year/motor is usually the EEC-IV Pinout list... An idea John Miller 91 FHP CopStang 86/89 Stang & Merkur XR4Ti 2.3L Turbo motor Hybrid 84 GT350 5.0 T-Top 79 5.0 EEC-IV Twin Turbo Project Stang In a message dated 5/24/99 6:00:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, NBailey at aetrium-fsa.com writes: << Hello, I am new to the list. :o) I Have a Question... I was wondering if anyone out there would know where I could possible get the schematics and pinout of the EEC-IV Computer. I would like to start my own project . Any info would be great... Thanks. Neal >> From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 25 08:30:21 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 04:30:21 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck dilemma Message-ID: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com wrote: > > Hi People, > I have spent an entire day trying to diagnose a problem, to no > avail. When the engine starts it runs fine for approx 10 seconds,then starts > running extremely rich.....I then rev it up to "clean" it out and block > learns and integrators are reasonable (123-125) then gradually returning to > idle all numbers stay within reason and again will idle fine now for about > 3-4 seconds then whammo rich again, I was fortunate enough to have the exact > year and truck to start swapping parts with.....here is a list of what I have > checked or changed.... > Fuel Pressure steady at 13 when problem is occuring or not > TPS voltage steady, no intermittent highs or lows > Map Voltage steady, no intermittent highs or lows......even tried > another > Coil coil was tried from other truck....supply voltage 13+ > Tach lead disconnected from coil to verify no shorting of tach > Throttle Body and injectors were exhanged for the other truck > BHMX (matching)computer chip tried from other truck > Computer tried from other truck > Distributor tried from other truck > EGR checked for leaks and even blocked off at one point to verify idle problem > Temp sensor checked on scanner to verify no intermittent jumps > Knock circuit checked on scanner to verify no intermittent jumps > Timing verified and verified 10 degree jump with rpm(wire pulled) still > changed dist later > Spark plugs changed....compression checked ,all within 20 lbs of each other. > Another shop had already replaced cap, rotor, wires, and plugs... to try to > fix problem. > Customer had just come from muffler shop and had new o2 sensor, y pipe and > cat back system installed since previous shop had told him he had a plugged > cat. > Stored data on the scanner of 75 frames prior to engine stumble and 25 after > ....looked at every frame and compared all data points to see what voltages > had moved or even if vss had somehow gone crazy...... > All this and no codes on the scanner (unless you let it idle poorly so long > it sets the high map voltage code) > The above is not in the order of which things were changed...just trying to > recall from a very frustrating day. > At the end of the day I got the idea it has to be some sort of a grounding > problem and the only grounds I know of on the engine are the two small ones > near the thermostat, the two on the passenger rear of engine(one goes to the > chassis from the engine and one goes to the frame)and the main battery ground > cable......All seems ok.....but maybe there's more I am missing here......I > then unhooked the battery for a few minutes (last ditch effort) and truck > started and ran normally this time for 7-8 minutes,,,not seconds..........One > last thing is this truck has had lots of stereo put in it and lots of > capacitors for noise......if anyone can give me a spot to look tomorrow I > would sure appreciate it and get back to the group with my > findings......Thanks in advance. > -Carl Summers I try to eliminate as many sensors as possible when something like this happens. You never mentioned O2 readings. Don't fall into the trap thinking a replaced part is a good one. I agree with Sneezy, try disconnecting O2 while running rich, see if fuel delivery returns to normal. I've seen problems with aftermarket sensors. Sometimes they do strange things. Also had trouble with ground at thermostat housing causing problems. ECM O2 circuit grounds there. Make sure all threads and water outlet are clean, and that the wire isn't corroded inside the terminal crimp. Sounds like you're using a Snap-on scanner, so data refresh rates should be fast enough to catch an intermittent problem. Can you force the engine to go leaner by faking signals to ecm? Is it responding to a rich O2 signal? Can you make it respond to one? Exhaust system prividing suitable ground? Is this an old problem, or something that just came about? HTH. If I think of anything else, I'll post it. Let us know what you find. Shannen From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Tue May 25 11:21:29 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 07:21:29 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck dilemma Message-ID: At 11:36 PM 5/24/99 -0400, you wrote: >Hi People, >Customer had just come from muffler shop and had new o2 sensor, y pipe and >cat back system installed since previous shop had told him he had a plugged >cat. >Stored data on the scanner of 75 frames prior to engine stumble and 25 after >....looked at every frame and compared all data points to see what voltages >had moved or even if vss had somehow gone crazy...... >All this and no codes on the scanner (unless you let it idle poorly so long >it sets the high map voltage code) If it's setting a high MAP voltage then the ground to the MAP or the vacuum line to the MAP is disconnected. High MAP means no vacuum which means add fuel to the computer. Also, I know I have beat this to death, but if the muffler shop put in a new O2 sensor and it's a Bosch 4 wire heated sensor, that could be the problem as well... The bosch 4 wire heated O2 has no internal ground for the sensor... AC grounds the low side of the sensor to the shell. My LeSabre did the exact same thing until I went back to an AC 4 wire heated sensor. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From pford at qnx.com Tue May 25 12:10:00 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:10:00 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: > SNIP > > | why not have a spark plug with a very long nose and no side electrode > > Saab done it already, trouble was erosion at top of ring pattern when spark > occured. cool thanks for the info, just one question: was that due to arcing at that area? > Grumpy -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From pford at qnx.com Tue May 25 12:22:05 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:22:05 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: > > Ya, but look at the drivetrain inertia your taking about. Your syclone with > it's 4WD is over twice as much as any other vehicle so when it drops off, > and back on it is violent, and would be under any strategy, IMHO. Probably > a Saab ATP (?) APC ( automatic performence control) It could also retard the timing, and would open the wastegate when the brake was applied. I think I still have the training manuals for it ( if I do I'll scan and upload it ) > Running a boost cutoff, overspeed management, and then a > fuel cut.. Don't let things turn back on at 16 PSI of boost. Subarus will do this if the wastegate seizes ( full fuel cutoff at hi boost nearly puts you through the windshield, then turns on and gives you whiplash) > Also, depends on driver. Hitting a fuel stop in a drag car can mean > something failed, and the run should be aborted. So the driver ends the run > by lifting, rather than keeping his foot in it. > I wouldn't use it a signal to shift or to flat foot thur it (not > lifting). > Grumpy > > -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 25 13:22:32 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:22:32 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Ford To: Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 8:09 AM Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi | Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: | SNIP | > | why not have a spark plug with a very long nose and no side electrode | > Saab done it already, trouble was erosion at top of ring pattern when spark | > occured. | cool thanks for the info, just one question: | was that due to arcing at that area? Shouldn't have been arcing, they mentioned erosion of the cylinder wall where the ring travel stopped. I'm quessing but, it sounds like the lubrication oil film has enough resistance theat the only grounds left are thru the rings (or the ones with least resistance. Grumpy | > Grumpy | | | -- | Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com | QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com | (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews | (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 | From garfield at cyberlynk.com Tue May 25 13:56:16 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 09:56:16 -0400 Subject: NTK UEGO response Message-ID: On Mon, 24 May 1999 20:53:22 -0700, Christopher J Beasley wrote: >So can I assume that the Honda sensor being referred to is a true wide band O2 >sensor? Ah yup. The sensor YOU will buy from Honda, will be the one we've posted about here previously, which is a 5-wire current pump type made by NTK for Honda. >And that the "modules" are the associated electronice? Ah yup. But ONLY the associated electonics to interface the sensor to YOUR additional electronics, be it engine manager or AFR meter/logger or whatever. >And that a "meter" would be an associated display? If it's YOUR meter that you're building, there will certainly be more electronics involved than simply a "display". What that electronics needs to be will be in the separately licenseable PLANS, if you're not up to the task of designing one of your own. If OTOH you're refering to EGOR-the-meter, the fully assembled commercial product, the "Precision AFR Meter", then there will be CONSIDERABLY more electronics involved in the "meter", than simply a display. >Will there be a group buy in the offing? Nope. The modules will be aggressively priced down to the point where there will be no room for further discounting. Besides, they will be personalized to the buyer, so that distributing them in lots to one group buyer will also not be possible. I believe the same is gonna be true on the meters. They too will be personalized. The company that makes them will also handle distribution and sales. They're 'galactic', so they'll handle everything. B) Gar From Tedscj at aol.com Tue May 25 14:07:08 1999 From: Tedscj at aol.com (Tedscj at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:07:08 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: In a message dated 5/24/99, 7:06:35 PM, diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: <> I'd have to agree. The only reasons to have one of those old hemis are... It looks neat, It sounds neat, and you can say "I have a Hemi under the hood!" Just don't try to race anybody! Ted From gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu Tue May 25 14:11:06 1999 From: gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu (Gregory A. Parmer) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:11:06 -0400 Subject: EEC-IV Schematics & Pinout Message-ID: On Mon, 24 May 1999, Neal Bailey wrote: > where I could possible get the schematics and pinout > of the EEC-IV Computer. I would like to start my own > project . Any info would be great... Thanks. Neal, As Steve mentioned, the link is on the DIY_EFI website under OEM/Ford. Or go directly to the central site at--- http://www.austin.cc.tx.us/ESA/tc_eec.htm -greg From neilaura at accessworldnet.com Tue May 25 14:42:17 1999 From: neilaura at accessworldnet.com (neilaura at accessworldnet.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:42:17 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck dilemma Message-ID: At 11:36 PM 5/24/99 EDT, you wrote: >Hi People, > I have spent an entire day trying to diagnose a problem, to no >avail. When the engine starts it runs fine for approx 10 seconds,then starts >running extremely rich.....I then rev it up to "clean" it out and block >learns and integrators are reasonable (123-125) then gradually returning to >idle all numbers stay within reason and again will idle fine now for about >3-4 seconds then whammo rich again, Start with the obvious Carl. Pinch off the hose from the purge canister and see if you get an improvement. I've had problems with them opening too early or leaking. Neil From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Tue May 25 15:22:44 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:22:44 -0400 Subject: Need help with board selection Message-ID: Darren -- Try picking up a 730/727 ECM at the junkyard. There is a commented disassembly at the ECMGUY's site. If you really want to roll your own you can erase the PROM and write your own software. These ECMs have all the code in the PROM so you can do all the code yourself if you want. Plus the A/D, PWM outputs, injector/coil drivers etc. are already set up for you. And, it comes in a nice aluminum box. I think that's a far better deal than you're likely to find buying some kind of demo or project board. --steve > Darren Ginter wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm new to the DIY_EFI stuff but I am interested in working on an EFI > project. The only problem is that I only want to do the software > aspect of it and simply purchase complete, over the counter hardware. > > Doesn anyone have any recommendations? I'm not looking to spend a > whole lot but I will go the extra mile for good technology. I > *really* like the MPC555 but can't really find much in the way of a > setup that I can get going right away on. > > Any help is appreciated. > > Darren -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 25 15:25:48 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:25:48 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Good point Jason!, Dually noted! Thanks for the info BEFORE I attempted the mod! LATER! Todd....!! SPECTRO COATING CORP. wrote: > > If you really want cross bolted caps in a wedge then ProGram makes a set > that are designed to work w/ the wedge block. But it's not a Black and > Decker deal. You have to put the block in a mill and fit it for the caps to > mate up. > > While you're there you may as well add provisions for the Stage V hemi heads > ;) > > BTW - a Rat Roaster is probably THE worst manifold to try to adapt to EFI - > it has a top plate that would interfere with the injectors - a tunnel ram > would be MUCH easier. If you still have your heart set on it then I'd > suggest you go look at a GM CPI 4.3L V-6. That would probably be easier to > do > > FWIW - Jason > > > > >On Mon, 24 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > > > >> Thanks for the info Jim!, > >> > >> As for the B/RB block not having the provisions for cross bolts, that > >> can be SIMPLY remedied by my good ol handy n durable Black n decker > >> drill! LOL! > >> > >The hemi block has a lot more metal in the area where the cross bolts go. > >You could put the bolts into a non-hemi block, but they would not add much > >strength, in fact they would probably crack the block when under load. From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 25 15:25:51 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:25:51 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Will try n get ya a pic and/or the numbers today... Post em tomorr if I do! Thanks! LATER! Todd....!! CLsnyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd....!! > To: > Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 5:29 PM > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > So, the 392 was only in TWO years of cars? > > Yup, 2 years only - Chrysler New Yorker, 300C, and Imperial only. Dual Quads > on the 300C only. > > > > It could be that year, but it looks older than a 58, will verify! > > Get me a picture, I'll tell you the year. If you can get the serial number > off the left front door hinge pillar it will help . > > > > Maybe I'll take a dig pic of the thing and post it on one of my sites > > and ask ya'll to look at it and tell me wxactly what year the beast is!? > > > > My Bee would look REALLY COOL with a HEMI in it! > > > > Thanks! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Todd....!! > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 12:23 PM > > > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > > > > > Sounds like a painful operation to me!! > > > > > > > > ALSO, BTW - FYI - Found a HUGE IMPERIAL cruisin in the junk yard > > > > universe this weekend, and it has a HEMI IN IT!! > > > > > > > > HOWEVER it's an old 50's or early 60's at the latest car, I can't tell > > > > what year it is.. but the distributor is in the rear of the hemi, > which > > > > means that is ain't a 426(426's dist is in the front like the newer > > > > mopar BB's) So the question now is, is this engine truly a 392 or > just > > > > a 331...? > > > > > > > 392 was used in '57 and '58. '56 was a 353. '51 to '55 were 331. > > > > > > Single headlights up to '56. > > > > EITHER way, it IS a hemi and it is HUGE! NO ONE will be able to tel > the > > > > diff tween it and a REAL 426 hemi except for the distributor sittin in > > > > the back! > > > > > > > > Anybody know how to tell what year the car is or whether or not the > > > > engine is a 331 or 392 hemi? > > > > > > > > They only want $300 for it, and that's still negotiable... > > > > > > > > Will be checkin for info on how to tell what this engine is... > > > > > > > > May just have ta pull a head to check the bore and pull the crank to > > > > check the stroke or somethin... the bore should tell me nuff? Will > be > > > > gettin the specs and differences tween the 331 and 392 as well... > > > > > > > > LATER! > > > > > > > > Todd....!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, the plug location in a Hemi is bad because it is off to > one > > > side. > > > > > > Its the best you can do with a Hemi but its still bad. As a > result it > > > needs > > > > > > > > > > >From what I've read a not so uncommon mod for all out racing is to > > > drill > > > > > and tap another spark plug hole... but I've not found anything on > the > > > > > net about it. Someone who was slightly intoxicated mentioned this > to me > > > > > in a bar a year or so ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 25 15:26:03 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:26:03 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: OK, sounds like you've got some PERSONAL experience on the issue! OUCH! That musta hurt! As for using Gas instead of Diesel for fuel in an engine using the diesel combustion principle, sounds like Fuel has more energy per volume than diesel, true? So why can't we just reduce the amount of fuel goin into the cylinder to compensate for the additional energy released! Let me know, I know no other place where I could attain the answer to this question besides the super intellegent people right here on this list! Thanks!, LATER! Todd....!! David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 02:55 PM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote: > >OK David, > > > >Ya just made me think of a question havin to do with the 'diesel' > >principle that you just stated.... > > > >Most diesels' static compression ratio's are pretty much over 20:1 > >right? > > > > For the most part... some turbo diesels are 18:1 or so, but normally > aspirated diesels are 22:1 to 25:1 CR > > >Why don't they just squirt regular fuel in at these temps instead of > >diesel? > > > > the rate of combustion would be too high and the detonation resistance too > low... Basically would blow the heads right off the engine! > (Seen it happen on a mercedes 300D... guy filled up with Regular gas and > drove off... about a block later, heard a large BOOM and he was at the side > of the road with lots of smoke... Opened the hood and it appeared to have > sheared the head bolts... head was about 1/4" above the block!) > > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 25 15:26:05 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:26:05 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: SHOOT! I can't remember if it has quad headlights or not!! Will probably be goin back to that yard this evenin just to check on all teh things everyone's been postin! Thanks for the link as well, this is a new link for me! Appreciate it! Will let ya know HOW IT GOES! LATER!, Todd....!! ---------- Tedscj at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/24/99, 11:54:37 AM, diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > writes: > < >> > > Try www.powerplayhemi.com/idengine.htm > The engine serial # is at the front of the block, just in front of the oil > filler/breather tube. > Also, if it has LARGE fins you will know it is a '56-'58 which will be a 354 > or 392ci. If not, then it is a -'55, which will be a 331ci. And again a > quad headlamp set-up in '58. > Ted From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 25 15:26:09 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:26:09 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: I hear ya talkin rap, All VERY good real world advice and points! BUT, the LOOKS of the HEMI are AWESOME! How many HP do ya think are possible outaof a 392? What was the torque and hp from the factory? I don't even know the bore n stroke of teh sucker, but those HEADS ARE HUGE MAN!! Your points are well taken and dually noted! Appreciate the input man! I need all I can get! As it sounds you surely understand! Will keep ya posted on the outcome! Later!, Todd....!! .. wrote: > > You need to check the numbers on the block to be sure, a lot of engines get > swapped out over time. Secondly, to make that old hemi perform you have to spend > bundles of bucks. Those old long and flimsy stock rockers have to go and the > replacements are very expensive (big time), along with triple valve springs that > you need; that is unless you want a low rev truck engine. Then you'll need to > replace the old worn pistons with some forged slugs (you'll have to bore it anyway > to straighten out those old tapered-by-time cylinders). Add at least a roller > chain timing set (or gear drive). Then comes the cam - you gotta be careful here. > Those old hemi's can be made to give you gobs of mid and top and power with the > right cam - but you'll give away bottom end torque. So plan on driving around with > a 2800-3000 stall convertor (and not the old slush box that came with that hemi) - > good luck finding an adapter. Outside of cleaning the mice nests out of the > intakes, just clean them up a bit - don't even look at the cost of replacement > race heads unless you're REAL serious. > > In short, you'll be Time, Money and Power ahead by picking up a factory long block > and building from there. Much stronger bottom end for one thing and they breathe > like crazy!! > > Or- put less then half as much money in your existing wedge and you'll have almost > as much power, certainly more usable street power. There was/is no magic in those > old hemi's (in 1958/59 my brother ran a 392 in his '40 Ford coupe and developed > fair sized arm muscles from steering that old nose heavy beast). > rap > > "Todd....!!" wrote: > > > So, the 392 was only in TWO years of cars? > > > > It could be that year, but it looks older than a 58, will verify! > > > > Maybe I'll take a dig pic of the thing and post it on one of my sites > > and ask ya'll to look at it and tell me wxactly what year the beast is!? > > > > My Bee would look REALLY COOL with a HEMI in it! > > > > Thanks! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Todd....!! > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 12:23 PM > > > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > > > > > Sounds like a painful operation to me!! > > > > > > > > ALSO, BTW - FYI - Found a HUGE IMPERIAL cruisin in the junk yard > > > > universe this weekend, and it has a HEMI IN IT!! > > > > > > > > HOWEVER it's an old 50's or early 60's at the latest car, I can't tell > > > > what year it is.. but the distributor is in the rear of the hemi, which > > > > means that is ain't a 426(426's dist is in the front like the newer > > > > mopar BB's) So the question now is, is this engine truly a 392 or just > > > > a 331...? > > > > > > > 392 was used in '57 and '58. '56 was a 353. '51 to '55 were 331. > > > > > > Single headlights up to '56. > > > > EITHER way, it IS a hemi and it is HUGE! NO ONE will be able to tel the > > > > diff tween it and a REAL 426 hemi except for the distributor sittin in > > > > the back! > > > > > > > > Anybody know how to tell what year the car is or whether or not the > > > > engine is a 331 or 392 hemi? > > > > > > > > They only want $300 for it, and that's still negotiable... > > > > > > > > Will be checkin for info on how to tell what this engine is... > > > > > > > > May just have ta pull a head to check the bore and pull the crank to > > > > check the stroke or somethin... the bore should tell me nuff? Will be > > > > gettin the specs and differences tween the 331 and 392 as well... > > > > > > > > LATER! > > > > > > > > Todd....!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, the plug location in a Hemi is bad because it is off to one > > > side. > > > > > > Its the best you can do with a Hemi but its still bad. As a result it > > > needs > > > > > > > > > > >From what I've read a not so uncommon mod for all out racing is to > > > drill > > > > > and tap another spark plug hole... but I've not found anything on the > > > > > net about it. Someone who was slightly intoxicated mentioned this to me > > > > > in a bar a year or so ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 25 15:26:18 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:26:18 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Cool to know! HOWEVER, accordin to my calculations at: ( http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/dragtable.htm ) Mid 14's are not my idea of a quick car, ESPECIALLY for that price! Even a simple lil paxton or turbo would've probably DOUBLED the power, thus givin it about 400 instead of a puny 200 hp at the rear wheels! ALSO giving it a quarter time in the 11's! Beating out the VIPER by a fair amount! What do ya think? LATER! Todd....!! AL8001 at aol.com wrote: > > The 99 Prowler has the all aluminum 3.5L V6 also used in the LHS and 300M. > The drive line of a Prowler consists of a front engine and a rear mounted > trans axel. Similar to a Porsche 924/944, 928 and the 65 Tempest. > > 3.5L all aluminum DOHC V6 253 HP @ 6,400 255 FT @ 3,950. It also has a > dual tuned intake system to give a broad power curve. Compression is around > 10 to 1. > > Sounds like enough for a 2,800 Lb street cruser to me. > > The 98 and older Prowler has a lesser 3.5L V6 cast iron block with a aluminum > head. > > Power (SAE Net) 214 bhp (157 kW) @ 5850 rpm > > Torque (SAE Net) 221 lb ft (303 Nm) @ 3100 rpm > > Max Engine Speed 6464 rpm > > Harold From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 25 15:26:23 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:26:23 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: THAT sounds like one BAD she-vette! Well my 1981 Pontiac T-1000 (She-vette) wouldn't hook AT ALL (till 2nd gear) unless I had a full load of people in the car..., with a full car I could push/slide the front tires when tryin to power brake the thing... 60 ft times were probably in the mid 2's without the buddy system in effect, but the 330 ft times were probably in the low 6's if not lower! I did break the homemade drive shaft that we made for it, luckily the professionally made one was already done and they brought it to me where the car broke down at! Cool machine shop, ey? LATER! Todd....!! .. wrote: > > Almost as dangerous as the dude that used to run about Pensacola, Fl. when > I lived there with the 427 Chev where the rear seat of a Chevette once > resided; tube frame and tubbed rear end and all. By the way, how many feet > did the Chevette rear end last on a good launch???? 10, maybe 15??? > rap > > "Todd....!!" wrote: > > > I put a 400 s.b.c. in a 2-door 1981 Chevette, talk about dangerous... > > > > Used the original rear end, so it was pretty tame at launch due to it > > being an open rear end, but once it hit second, I'd let off the gas and > > romp it again and have FULL traction! Whoopeeee.... > > > > It weighed 2,345 lbs. after the install, also used the TH375 auto outa > > the Impala Wagon as well... > > > > The driveshaft was about 2 to 3 ft. long! The Chevette's rear end > > housing has a REALLY ong front end on it, at LEAST a foot long! maybe > > longer! > > > > COOL? > > > > LATER! > > From javer96 at snowcrest.net Tue May 25 15:41:37 1999 From: javer96 at snowcrest.net (Vance Rose) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:41:37 -0400 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: Hi Bruce Get well soon. You'll be in my thoughts. Vance From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 25 15:52:52 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:52:52 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Good question! I was wonderin the same thing, but thought it too minute of a question to ask! Thanks for askin it! Sincerely!, Todd....!! ------------ Pat Ford wrote: > > Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: > > > SNIP > > > > | why not have a spark plug with a very long nose and no side electrode > > > > Saab done it already, trouble was erosion at top of ring pattern when spark > > occured. > > cool thanks for the info, just one question: > > was that due to arcing at that area? > > > Grumpy > > -- > Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com > QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews > (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 25 15:52:58 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:52:58 -0400 Subject: Simple Injection Questions Message-ID: Pat, That's why they made Seat belts and those neck brace/rolls, so ya wouldn't fly thru the windshield nor get whiplash on the way back down! lol... LATER! Todd....!! Pat Ford wrote: > > Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: > > > > > Ya, but look at the drivetrain inertia your taking about. Your syclone with > > it's 4WD is over twice as much as any other vehicle so when it drops off, > > and back on it is violent, and would be under any strategy, IMHO. Probably > > a Saab ATP (?) > > APC ( automatic performence control) It could also retard the timing, and > would open the wastegate when the brake was applied. I think I still have the > training manuals for it ( if I do I'll scan and upload it ) > > > Running a boost cutoff, overspeed management, and then a > > fuel cut.. Don't let things turn back on at 16 PSI of boost. > > Subarus will do this if the wastegate seizes ( full fuel cutoff at hi > boost nearly puts you through the windshield, then turns on and gives > you whiplash) > > > Also, depends on driver. Hitting a fuel stop in a drag car can mean > > something failed, and the run should be aborted. So the driver ends the run > > by lifting, rather than keeping his foot in it. > > I wouldn't use it a signal to shift or to flat foot thur it (not > > lifting). > > Grumpy > > > > > > -- > Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com > QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews > (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Tue May 25 17:45:21 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 13:45:21 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: this may sound crazy but I thought I'd ask. question, in working on my Chevy 350 block, (valve job), I noticed that my cooling system, (heater core, block) is not pristine. in accidentally finding some heavy hydraulic web sites, I wondered if anyone has ever thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, scale, etc, rather than letting it flow through the system. some of the stuff I've seen on the web, (not automotive), has been real impressive looking, at the very least one might use a patch of clear tubing and visually see the color/flow/ air content of the coolant, might be interesting. thanks, Ted. From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 25 18:15:17 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:15:17 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck dilemma Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 11:36 PM Subject: 94 Truck dilemma Carl, have you changed the oil? Checked level and dilution? That would be my starting point. > Hi People, > I have spent an entire day trying to diagnose a problem, to no > avail. When the engine starts it runs fine for approx 10 seconds,then starts > running extremely rich.....I then rev it up to "clean" it out and block > learns and integrators are reasonable (123-125) then gradually returning to > idle all numbers stay within reason and again will idle fine now for about > 3-4 seconds then whammo rich again, I was fortunate enough to have the exact > year and truck to start swapping parts with.....here is a list of what I have > checked or changed.... > Fuel Pressure steady at 13 when problem is occuring or not > TPS voltage steady, no intermittent highs or lows > Map Voltage steady, no intermittent highs or lows......even tried > another > Coil coil was tried from other truck....supply voltage 13+ > Tach lead disconnected from coil to verify no shorting of tach > Throttle Body and injectors were exhanged for the other truck > BHMX (matching)computer chip tried from other truck > Computer tried from other truck > Distributor tried from other truck > EGR checked for leaks and even blocked off at one point to verify idle problem > Temp sensor checked on scanner to verify no intermittent jumps > Knock circuit checked on scanner to verify no intermittent jumps > Timing verified and verified 10 degree jump with rpm(wire pulled) still > changed dist later > Spark plugs changed....compression checked ,all within 20 lbs of each other. > Another shop had already replaced cap, rotor, wires, and plugs... to try to > fix problem. > Customer had just come from muffler shop and had new o2 sensor, y pipe and > cat back system installed since previous shop had told him he had a plugged > cat. > Stored data on the scanner of 75 frames prior to engine stumble and 25 after > ....looked at every frame and compared all data points to see what voltages > had moved or even if vss had somehow gone crazy...... > All this and no codes on the scanner (unless you let it idle poorly so long > it sets the high map voltage code) > The above is not in the order of which things were changed...just trying to > recall from a very frustrating day. > At the end of the day I got the idea it has to be some sort of a grounding > problem and the only grounds I know of on the engine are the two small ones > near the thermostat, the two on the passenger rear of engine(one goes to the > chassis from the engine and one goes to the frame)and the main battery ground > cable......All seems ok.....but maybe there's more I am missing here......I > then unhooked the battery for a few minutes (last ditch effort) and truck > started and ran normally this time for 7-8 minutes,,,not seconds..........One > last thing is this truck has had lots of stereo put in it and lots of > capacitors for noise......if anyone can give me a spot to look tomorrow I > would sure appreciate it and get back to the group with my > findings......Thanks in advance. > -Carl Summers > From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 25 18:27:49 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:27:49 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: Some of the long haul stuff used to/may still use coolant filters. My total summary of what I like about clear hose: Nothing. Grumpy | this may sound crazy but I thought I'd ask. | question, in working on my Chevy 350 block, (valve job), I noticed that my | cooling system, (heater core, block) is not pristine. in accidentally | finding some heavy hydraulic web sites, I wondered if anyone has ever | thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, scale, etc, | rather than letting it flow through the system. | some of the stuff I've seen on the web, (not automotive), has been real | impressive looking, at the very least one might use a patch of clear tubing | and visually see the color/flow/ air content of the coolant, might be | interesting. | thanks, Ted. From tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com Tue May 25 19:26:37 1999 From: tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:26:37 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Is anybody here working on some sort of ignition retarding knock sensor? I know the basics of how they work, but have seen a lot of discussion in the past couple years about how difficult it is to filter the sensor output accurately, especially when dealing with different engines and sensor locations. I'm having a serious problem with knock on my turbo'd engine. To the point I'm actually considering dishing out the $400 - $500 (or more) for the J&S knock sensor system. I've found a lot of reviews of it on the net and it does seem to work as advertised. It has the ability to retard individual knocking cylinders instead of all cylinders when knock is present. Thought I'd try the list first to see if there was a project in prgress that I could maybe get in on and help out any way I could. Or, if maybe there is already a DIY kit someone is working/developing on that they're considering selling. thanks --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From xwiredtva at email.msn.com Tue May 25 19:27:38 1999 From: xwiredtva at email.msn.com (Xwiredtva) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:27:38 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: This is why your supposed to flush and fill every 24000 miles or 2 yrs. Depending on how you drive, where, and how hard you are on the engine do it more frequently. In a recent rebuild on a Suzuki engine before we even started we flushed the oil and coolant with appropriate chemicals. This made it very easy to work on. Once you get it back together, be sure to clean it out, flush and fill in 5000 miles then every 24000 afterwards. Also I seem to be the only one on the Suzuki list that doesn't have overheating problems with my setup, in fact I have underheating symptoms...Makes ya wonder...Also I've heard of people porting out the coolant routes in the block to increase the amount of fluid flowing through certain areas, not sure if that works?? -Todd this may sound crazy but I thought I'd ask. question, in working on my Chevy 350 block, (valve job), I noticed that my cooling system, (heater core, block) is not pristine. in accidentally finding some heavy hydraulic web sites, I wondered if anyone has ever thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, scale, etc, rather than letting it flow through the system. some of the stuff I've seen on the web, (not automotive), has been real impressive looking, at the very least one might use a patch of clear tubing and visually see the color/flow/ air content of the coolant, might be interesting. thanks, Ted. From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 25 19:29:53 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:29:53 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 12:45 PM Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > I hear ya talkin rap, > > All VERY good real world advice and points! > > BUT, the LOOKS of the HEMI are AWESOME! > > How many HP do ya think are possible outaof a 392? > > What was the torque and hp from the factory? 390 hp at 5400 stock with solid lifters and dual quads. 375 at 5200 stock dual quad and hydraulic cam.(300c) 325 at 4600 single quad hydraulic. > > I don't even know the bore n stroke of teh sucker, but those HEADS ARE > HUGE MAN!! > 4" bore, 3.9 stroke. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Tue May 25 19:35:49 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:35:49 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: I remember seeing in a catalog a while back, may have been summit or Jegs, a filter that went inline with the upper radiator hose... It was about $10.00 or $15.00 > this may sound crazy but I thought I'd ask. > > question, in working on my Chevy 350 block, (valve job), I noticed that my > cooling system, (heater core, block) is not pristine. in accidentally > finding some heavy hydraulic web sites, I wondered if anyone has ever > thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, scale, etc, > rather than letting it flow through the system. > > some of the stuff I've seen on the web, (not automotive), has been real > impressive looking, at the very least one might use a patch of clear tubing > and visually see the color/flow/ air content of the coolant, might be > interesting. > > thanks, Ted. > From A70Duster at aol.com Tue May 25 19:56:07 1999 From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:56:07 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck dilemma Message-ID: Ever heard of karma..... From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com Tue May 25 20:12:54 1999 From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:12:54 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: The filter you ask about does exist. It is more of a strainer than filter but does catch the big stuff. I bought the one I have at a speed shop that was going out of business, it mounts between a heater hose and the engine. To clean it you unscrew the clear sediment bowl. I don't have the make or model in front of me, but pep boys auto or Napa should be able to help you out. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: Stowe, Ted-SEA [SMTP:StowT at PerkinsCoie.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 12:44 PM > To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > Subject: question on cooling system > > this may sound crazy but I thought I'd ask. > > question, in working on my Chevy 350 block, (valve job), I noticed that my > cooling system, (heater core, block) is not pristine. in accidentally > finding some heavy hydraulic web sites, I wondered if anyone has ever > thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, scale, > etc, > rather than letting it flow through the system. > > some of the stuff I've seen on the web, (not automotive), has been real > impressive looking, at the very least one might use a patch of clear > tubing > and visually see the color/flow/ air content of the coolant, might be > interesting. > > thanks, Ted. From nacelp at bright.net Tue May 25 20:33:49 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:33:49 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck dilemma Message-ID: | Ever heard of karma..... You mind passing some this way??. Grumpy From John.Falb at Unisys.Com Tue May 25 20:39:01 1999 From: John.Falb at Unisys.Com (Falb, John) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:39:01 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: I'm having a serious problem with knock on my turbo'd engine. To the point I'm actually considering dishing out the $400 - $500 (or more) for the J&S knock sensor system. You can get it for more like 250.00 from J&S, and yes they work. But they are not a good solution for a constantly knocking engine. They will retard too much and take too long to recover. They really shine when you have occasional knock and don't want to harm the engine. John Falb From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Tue May 25 21:03:25 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:03:25 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: interesting, thanks Don. > -----Original Message----- > From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com [SMTP:Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 1:10 PM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: RE: question on cooling system > > The filter you ask about does exist. It is more of a strainer than filter > but does catch the big stuff. I bought the one I have at a speed shop that > was going out of business, it mounts between a heater hose and the engine. > To clean it you unscrew the clear sediment bowl. I don't have the make or > model in front of me, but pep boys auto or Napa should be able to help you > out. > > Don > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Stowe, Ted-SEA [SMTP:StowT at PerkinsCoie.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 12:44 PM > > To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > > Subject: question on cooling system > > > > this may sound crazy but I thought I'd ask. > > > > question, in working on my Chevy 350 block, (valve job), I noticed that > my > > cooling system, (heater core, block) is not pristine. in accidentally > > finding some heavy hydraulic web sites, I wondered if anyone has ever > > thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, scale, > > etc, > > rather than letting it flow through the system. > > > > some of the stuff I've seen on the web, (not automotive), has been real > > impressive looking, at the very least one might use a patch of clear > > tubing > > and visually see the color/flow/ air content of the coolant, might be > > interesting. > > > > thanks, Ted. From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 25 21:16:56 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:16:56 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > this may sound crazy but I thought I'd ask. > > question, in working on my Chevy 350 block, (valve job), I noticed that my > cooling system, (heater core, block) is not pristine. in accidentally > finding some heavy hydraulic web sites, I wondered if anyone has ever > thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, scale, etc, > rather than letting it flow through the system. > > some of the stuff I've seen on the web, (not automotive), has been real > impressive looking, at the very least one might use a patch of clear tubing > and visually see the color/flow/ air content of the coolant, might be > interesting. > > thanks, Ted. Fleet applications use this type of approach. Filter the coolant, and add a supplement every year. Automotive industry recommends complete replacement/flush at 30K for traditional coolant. What you see in the block is from an, err, extended maintainance schedule, combined with tap water. Have you found clear tubing that will survive in auto apps? The stuff in the shop's coolant flush machine discolored after a year, and it had few hours on it, relatively speaking. Shannen From bearbvd at sni.net Tue May 25 21:36:50 1999 From: bearbvd at sni.net (Greg Hermann) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:36:50 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: >Some of the long haul stuff used to/may still use coolant filters. > >My total summary of what I like about clear hose: Nothing. >Grumpy Prolly Luber-Finer stuff, just like the big, externally mounted chrome oil cleaners on some of the long haul rigs. Greg > > > >| this may sound crazy but I thought I'd ask. >| question, in working on my Chevy 350 block, (valve job), I noticed that my >| cooling system, (heater core, block) is not pristine. in accidentally >| finding some heavy hydraulic web sites, I wondered if anyone has ever >| thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, scale, >etc, >| rather than letting it flow through the system. >| some of the stuff I've seen on the web, (not automotive), has been real >| impressive looking, at the very least one might use a patch of clear >tubing >| and visually see the color/flow/ air content of the coolant, might be >| interesting. >| thanks, Ted. From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 25 21:37:22 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:37:22 -0400 Subject: SpeedBrain... to the rescue....?? Message-ID: Hello all, Jsut got back from lunch a lil while ago.... Read an article at the newstand about an aftermarket EFI computer that uses two inputs, and no tables, for it's fuel curve, however it plugs DIRECTLY into the EEC-IV harness, in place of the EEC-IV itself! And uses a MAF, so it's limited to about 600 hp due to MAF's limited clarity at higher than 600 hp apps.... Other than that, it got TWO thumbs up by the editors.... It's a plug n play deal, and has full data acquisition, even a laptop dashboard program so you can use the computer instead of dashboard instruments to guide you on your journeys... Heck, it'll even play the SOUND back from your runs along with synchronized instrument playback on the laptop simulated dash program! COOL? Have any of ya'll heard of this gizmo? It seems as though one of ya'll coulda came up with thie system easily, some of ya probably already have!! Lemme know? LATER! Todd....!! From sfeaver at cgocable.net Tue May 25 22:09:46 1999 From: sfeaver at cgocable.net (Scott Feaver) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:09:46 -0400 Subject: 305V8 convert to EFI Message-ID: I have an 84 Cutlass with a 305V8 that I would like to try converting to EFI if it isn't too expensive (its my beater car :). Since its a Canadian car, there is no computer in there. It has a 4-barrel QuadraJet (I believe its 650CFM), vacuum advance HEI distributer with Accell Super Coil :), 4-Speed Auto with 2.29 axle (low rever :) Any suggestions? Thanks, Scott From atc347 at c-com.net Tue May 25 22:11:03 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:11:03 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Thanks for those numbers man! Where'd you pick the numbers up at? Well that's PLENTY of power! I'd rather have HP than lightness.... I believe this due ot the following logic....: If you remove 100 lbs. of weight from a car, the e.t.'s will drop by .1 If you add only 10 hp the e.t. will drop .1 seconds as well! Does this agree with ya'll's pallete's or is something in err with my logic? LATER! Todd....!! CLsnyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd....!! > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 12:45 PM > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > I hear ya talkin rap, > > > > All VERY good real world advice and points! > > > > BUT, the LOOKS of the HEMI are AWESOME! > > > > How many HP do ya think are possible outaof a 392? > > > > What was the torque and hp from the factory? > > 390 hp at 5400 stock with solid lifters and dual quads. > 375 at 5200 stock dual quad and hydraulic cam.(300c) > 325 at 4600 single quad hydraulic. > > > > I don't even know the bore n stroke of teh sucker, but those HEADS ARE > > HUGE MAN!! > > > 4" bore, 3.9 stroke. From rap at aci.net Tue May 25 22:33:08 1999 From: rap at aci.net (..) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:33:08 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: If you hot tank the block and heads (intake too if its cast iron) before you assemble it, then run a good grade of anti-freeze (add new anti-freeze each year -or- a pint of water soluble oil) you won't have the rust and junk to start with; and, you're engine will run better. All the crud that has sunk to the bottom of the water jacket around the cylinders in the block will be gone (if done properly). rap "Stowe, Ted-SEA" wrote: > this may sound crazy but I thought I'd ask. > > question, in working on my Chevy 350 block, (valve job), I noticed that my > cooling system, (heater core, block) is not pristine. in accidentally > finding some heavy hydraulic web sites, I wondered if anyone has ever > thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, scale, etc, > rather than letting it flow through the system. > > some of the stuff I've seen on the web, (not automotive), has been real > impressive looking, at the very least one might use a patch of clear tubing > and visually see the color/flow/ air content of the coolant, might be > interesting. > > thanks, Ted. From A70Duster at aol.com Tue May 25 22:34:13 1999 From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:34:13 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now loosing tenths Message-ID: I believe Car Craft did an article on that one last year as a BIG no no. It varies way too much. Took a '74 Dart at 3450 pound at 14.2's Put the same drive train into a '70 Duster at 2850 (roughly a delta of 600 lbs) and ran 13.0's. Or 0.2 sec per 100 pounds. See ya, Mike From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Tue May 25 22:35:55 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:35:55 -0400 Subject: 305V8 convert to EFI Message-ID: > I have an 84 Cutlass with a 305V8 that I would like to try converting to EFI > if it isn't too expensive (its my beater car :). Since its a Canadian car, > there is no computer in there. It has a 4-barrel QuadraJet (I believe its > 650CFM), vacuum advance HEI distributer with Accell Super Coil :), 4-Speed > Auto with 2.29 axle (low rever :) You have many options. 1. Holley 4D or 4DI system. Carb-like creature that attaches to your existing intake, and adjust electronically to your tastes. 2. Find a TBI system on a 350cid engine (Trucks especially). Make a carb plate that converts the 2-bbl TBI system to the 4bbl intake, or swap the intakes out, attach computer, wires, and you're done. Junkyard cost with the intake (at my local get-grimy-you-pull-it) is about 200 bucks. 3. Find a 305/350 Camaro/Firebird/Monte with the TPI setup, and leach. About the same price give or take a few bucks. 4. Swap entire engine with an EFI engine (sometimes about 300-400 bucks complete). From claresnyder at home.com Tue May 25 22:43:27 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:43:27 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 7:55 PM Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > Thanks for those numbers man! > > Where'd you pick the numbers up at? > > Well that's PLENTY of power! > > I'd rather have HP than lightness.... > I've been a Mopar Man for years - owned a 241 cu Hemi Coronet (1953) among others. Interest in old cars has had me owning, over the years, a '28 chevy national, '35 chevy master, 37 hudson terraplane, '53 coronet sierra (hemi), '57 fargo custom express(rarest truck produced by chrysler since the 2nd war), '63 valiant 170, '49 VW beetle, etc. etc. Have collected a LOT of info over the years - service data books, catalogs, etc. > I believe this due ot the following logic....: > > If you remove 100 lbs. of weight from a car, the e.t.'s will drop by .1 > > If you add only 10 hp the e.t. will drop .1 seconds as well! depends on the overall weight of the vehicle. If 100 lbs is .5% of vehicle weight it makes les difference than if it is 5%. If 10hp is .5% of power it makes less difference than if it is 5%. > > Does this agree with ya'll's pallete's or is something in err with my > logic? > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Todd....!! > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 12:45 PM > > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > > > I hear ya talkin rap, > > > > > > All VERY good real world advice and points! > > > > > > BUT, the LOOKS of the HEMI are AWESOME! > > > > > > How many HP do ya think are possible outaof a 392? > > > > > > What was the torque and hp from the factory? > > > > 390 hp at 5400 stock with solid lifters and dual quads. > > 375 at 5200 stock dual quad and hydraulic cam.(300c) > > 325 at 4600 single quad hydraulic. > > > > > > I don't even know the bore n stroke of teh sucker, but those HEADS ARE > > > HUGE MAN!! > > > > > 4" bore, 3.9 stroke. > > From shannen at grolen.com Tue May 25 23:06:56 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:06:56 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Yeah. Read about ION, then talk to Gar. Shannen d houlton x0710 wrote: > > Is anybody here working on some sort of ignition retarding knock sensor? > I know the basics of how they work, but have seen a lot of discussion > in the past couple years about how difficult it is to filter the > sensor output accurately, especially when dealing with different engines > and sensor locations. > > I'm having a serious problem with knock on my turbo'd engine. To the > point I'm actually considering dishing out the $400 - $500 (or more) > for the J&S knock sensor system. I've found a lot of reviews of it on > the net and it does seem to work as advertised. It has the ability to > retard individual knocking cylinders instead of all cylinders when > knock is present. > > Thought I'd try the list first to see if there was a project in prgress > that I could maybe get in on and help out any way I could. Or, if > maybe there is already a DIY kit someone is working/developing on that > they're considering selling. > > thanks > --Dan > houlster at inficad.com > http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Tue May 25 23:12:21 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:12:21 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: On Tue, 25 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > My total summary of what I like about clear hose: Nothing. > Grumpy > Agreed. Cheap junk. There is a name for people that use it in cars: customer. From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Tue May 25 23:14:36 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:14:36 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Has the engine always knocked, or did it begin recently? Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Falb, John To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 8:13 PM Subject: RE: Ignition retard knock sensor. >I'm having a serious problem with knock on my turbo'd engine. To the >point I'm actually considering dishing out the $400 - $500 (or more) >for the J&S knock sensor system. > > > >You can get it for more like 250.00 from J&S, and yes they work. But they >are not a good solution for a constantly knocking engine. They will retard >too much and take too long to recover. They really shine when you have >occasional knock and don't want to harm the engine. > >John Falb > From dapiper at one.net Tue May 25 23:32:32 1999 From: dapiper at one.net (David Piper) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:32:32 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: I have schematic of orig Carter knock eliminator. Understand that each engine has unique acoustic profile that may require filtering to be effective. I applied MSD knock detector to my Z on DynoJet to no avail. Better design uses DSP customized to engine. At 12:26 PM 5/25/99 -0700, you wrote: >Is anybody here working on some sort of ignition retarding knock sensor? >I know the basics of how they work, but have seen a lot of discussion >in the past couple years about how difficult it is to filter the >sensor output accurately, especially when dealing with different engines >and sensor locations. > >I'm having a serious problem with knock on my turbo'd engine. To the >point I'm actually considering dishing out the $400 - $500 (or more) >for the J&S knock sensor system. I've found a lot of reviews of it on >the net and it does seem to work as advertised. It has the ability to >retard individual knocking cylinders instead of all cylinders when >knock is present. > >Thought I'd try the list first to see if there was a project in prgress >that I could maybe get in on and help out any way I could. Or, if >maybe there is already a DIY kit someone is working/developing on that >they're considering selling. > >thanks >--Dan >houlster at inficad.com >http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm TurboDave From RRauscher at nni.com Wed May 26 00:06:06 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 20:06:06 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: I find that at the very least, run distilled water and antifreeze. World of difference... BobR. >this may sound crazy but I thought I'd ask. > >question, in working on my Chevy 350 block, (valve job), I noticed that my >cooling system, (heater core, block) is not pristine. in accidentally >finding some heavy hydraulic web sites, I wondered if anyone has ever >thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, scale, etc, >rather than letting it flow through the system. > >some of the stuff I've seen on the web, (not automotive), has been real >impressive looking, at the very least one might use a patch of clear tubing >and visually see the color/flow/ air content of the coolant, might be >interesting. > >thanks, Ted. From AL8001 at aol.com Wed May 26 00:21:41 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 20:21:41 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: In a message dated 99-05-25 19:34:40 EDT, dapiper at one.net writes: >I have schematic of orig Carter knock eliminator. Understand that each >engine has unique acoustic profile that may require filtering to be >effective. I applied MSD knock detector to my Z on DynoJet to no avail. > >Better design uses DSP customized to engine. Was this schematic posted of the web? I would like to get a copy if it's online. Thanks Harold From dzorde at erggroup.com Wed May 26 00:51:59 1999 From: dzorde at erggroup.com (dzorde at erggroup.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 20:51:59 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: Hello fellow diy's, Been of the list a while as I have changed jobs (took a while to get a new email going). Anyway, I tried getting to Bruce's calculation page as I was hoping for a guiding formula for selecting compression ratio (CR) based on s/c boost, however I keep getting the message the page is not available (anyone else having problems accessing it from the efi332 home page ?). Does anyone have anything I can use as a guide for calculating max possible CR on a forced induction engine ? I know the standard formula but it doesn't take boost into account. If there is no such formula, what would be a feasible CR in a Fiat 903cc motor running max 16PSI boost ? (8:1, 7:1 ?) Looking at running on standard 96 octane leaded or possibly 100 avgas. Thanks in advance Dan dzorde at erggroup.com From dapiper at one.net Wed May 26 00:57:55 1999 From: dapiper at one.net (David Piper) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 20:57:55 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: Run 8:1 At 08:50 AM 5/26/99 +0800, you wrote: > > >Hello fellow diy's, > >Been of the list a while as I have changed jobs (took a while to get a new >email >going). Anyway, I tried getting to Bruce's calculation page as I was hoping >for >a guiding formula for selecting compression ratio (CR) based on s/c boost, >however I keep getting the message the page is not available (anyone else >having >problems accessing it from the efi332 home page ?). > >Does anyone have anything I can use as a guide for calculating max possible CR >on a forced induction engine ? I know the standard formula but it doesn't take >boost into account. > >If there is no such formula, what would be a feasible CR in a Fiat 903cc motor >running max 16PSI boost ? (8:1, 7:1 ?) Looking at running on standard 96 >octane >leaded or possibly 100 avgas. > >Thanks in advance > >Dan dzorde at erggroup.com > TurboDave From jtvol at dcs-chico.com Wed May 26 01:05:29 1999 From: jtvol at dcs-chico.com (James Thomas) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 21:05:29 -0400 Subject: Bosch D-Jetronic Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEA6D9.20C75140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is a good one for you guys. I own a Volvo Specialty Service in = California. I am 50 years old and an old SCCA racer (used to race in = E-Production in a '58 Porsche Speedster in the 1970's). I am completing = a new project for SCCA racing, a 1971 Volvo 142 to compete in ITB. = Pretty much got all the tricks down. This car is brand new from the = ground up (every nut, bolt and molecule). Got all the latest trick = ideas from my other Volvo ITB racers that I have been helping for the = last few years. I am planning this one to be a world beater ( if I can = still drive ). Here is the question...I am having a problem finding a = schematic of the D-Jetronic control unit (MPC) so I can adjust the fuel = mixture in different ranges. I don't want to mess with the head temp = sensor resistance as it seems to mess up the injection timing, got to = work on the inside. Haven't gotten much from Bosch. Need some = engineering brains who might have some thoughts on modifying the innards = of this unit. Any thoughts out there? James Thomas James Thomas Independent Volvo Service ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEA6D9.20C75140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here is a good one for you guys.  = I own a=20 Volvo Specialty Service in California.  I am 50 years old and an = old SCCA=20 racer (used to race in E-Production in a '58 Porsche Speedster in the=20 1970's).  I am completing a new project for SCCA racing, a 1971 = Volvo 142=20 to compete in ITB.  Pretty much got all the tricks down.  This = car is=20 brand new from the ground up (every nut, bolt and molecule).  Got = all the=20 latest trick ideas from my other Volvo ITB racers that I have been = helping=20 for the last few years.  I am planning this one to be a world = beater ( if I=20 can still drive ).  Here is the question...I am having a problem = finding a=20 schematic of the D-Jetronic control unit (MPC) so I can adjust the = fuel=20 mixture in different ranges.  I don't want to mess with the = head temp=20 sensor resistance as it seems to mess up the injection timing, got = to work=20 on the inside. Haven't gotten much from Bosch.  Need some = engineering=20 brains who might have some thoughts on modifying the innards of this=20 unit.
Any thoughts out there?
James Thomas
James Thomas Independent Volvo=20 Service
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEA6D9.20C75140-- From houlster at user2.inficad.com Wed May 26 01:43:28 1999 From: houlster at user2.inficad.com (Daniel Houlton) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 21:43:28 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: C. Brooks wrote: > > Has the engine always knocked, or did it begin recently? > > Charles Brooks Nope. Mysteriously, it started after I added the turbo :) I have other things I need to fix like getting an intercooler installed and getting a cold air induction system set up that will help a lot, but I don't know how long that'll take me and I'm still concerned that it won't eliminate the knock. I've set the timing back to stock from having it advanced a bit pre- turbo and that helped. Also, I'm running water injection but want to eliminate that as well. I recently made a round trip of about 9 hours each way (a few days apart). Loaded down with a roof rack, camping supplies, tools and spare parts (and a dog) and I was running a constant 5 psi of boost at 65 - 70 mph and 8 psi on the big hills. Water tank ran dry in the first 30 - 45 minutes. Knock isn't so bad on premium, but I'd like to run mid (or even low) octane fuel without a problem. --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Wed May 26 02:19:40 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 22:19:40 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: -> thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, -> scale, etc, rather than letting it flow through the system. Big trucks do that. If you look in a Fram catalog, they have a remote mount coolant filter bracket for $15. I'm running a 1 quart Wix filter that cost $10. They make filters with built-in additive packages; the one I'm running is just a filter. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From shannen at grolen.com Wed May 26 02:59:01 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 22:59:01 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: dzorde at erggroup.com wrote: > > Hello fellow diy's, > > Anyway, I tried getting to Bruce's calculation page as I was hoping for > a guiding formula for selecting compression ratio (CR) based on s/c boost, > however I keep getting the message the page is not available (anyone else having > problems accessing it from the efi332 home page ?). > > > Thanks in advance > > Dan dzorde at erggroup.com I use this link: http://sura1.jlab.org/~grippo/auto_noframe.html I have trouble with the frames. Shannen From eclark at hoser.com Wed May 26 03:17:18 1999 From: eclark at hoser.com (eclark at hoser.com) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:17:18 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: JC Whitney > I remember seeing in a catalog a while back, may have been summit or Jegs, a > filter that went inline with the upper radiator hose... It was about $10.00 > or $15.00 > From tcb123 at qatar.net.qa Wed May 26 03:29:03 1999 From: tcb123 at qatar.net.qa (Tom Bennett) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:29:03 -0400 Subject: question on cooling system Message-ID: Ted, Check this page out, We have been using Gano filters for years. http://www.nettally.com/palmk/GanoFilterCleanout.html regards Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: Stowe, Ted-SEA To: Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 8:43 PM Subject: question on cooling system > this may sound crazy but I thought I'd ask. > > question, in working on my Chevy 350 block, (valve job), I noticed that my > cooling system, (heater core, block) is not pristine. in accidentally > finding some heavy hydraulic web sites, I wondered if anyone has ever > thought of some kind of filter in the heater hoses to trap rust, scale, etc, > rather than letting it flow through the system. > > some of the stuff I've seen on the web, (not automotive), has been real > impressive looking, at the very least one might use a patch of clear tubing > and visually see the color/flow/ air content of the coolant, might be > interesting. > > thanks, Ted. > From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 26 03:30:29 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:30:29 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Your expecting to run 5 PSI boost steady state??.... I really don't know of anything other than a farm tractor that can do that. That is a tremendous load... Doc | Loaded down with a roof rack, camping | supplies, tools and spare parts (and a dog) and I was running a constant 5 | psi of boost at 65 - 70 mph and 8 psi on the big hills. Water tank ran | dry in the first 30 - 45 minutes. | Knock isn't so bad on premium, but I'd like to run mid (or even low) | octane fuel without a problem. | --Dan | houlster at inficad.com From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Wed May 26 03:41:33 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 23:41:33 -0400 Subject: SpeedBrain... to the rescue....?? Message-ID: Speed brain is vaporware. The manufacturer has been saying for 2-3 years it's there, but no one has ever seen it except for the "secret beta testers". At 04:21 PM 5/25/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hello all, > >Jsut got back from lunch a lil while ago.... > >Read an article at the newstand about an aftermarket EFI computer that >uses two inputs, and no tables, for it's fuel curve, however it plugs >DIRECTLY into the EEC-IV harness, in place of the EEC-IV itself! And >uses a MAF, so it's limited to about 600 hp due to MAF's limited clarity >at higher than 600 hp apps.... Other than that, it got TWO thumbs up by >the editors.... > >It's a plug n play deal, and has full data acquisition, even a laptop >dashboard program so you can use the computer instead of dashboard >instruments to guide you on your journeys... > >Heck, it'll even play the SOUND back from your runs along with >synchronized instrument playback on the laptop simulated dash program! > >COOL? > >Have any of ya'll heard of this gizmo? > >It seems as though one of ya'll coulda came up with thie system easily, >some of ya probably already have!! > >Lemme know? > >LATER! > >Todd....!! > =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From mike at webcruzers.com Wed May 26 04:35:26 1999 From: mike at webcruzers.com (Mike DiMeco) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:35:26 -0400 Subject: GM 8321 Message-ID: Anyone have table info on a GM 8321 ECM? I've downloaded the ARRN bin from the EPROM, but I need help with the tables. Mike From romans at pacbell.net Wed May 26 04:45:06 1999 From: romans at pacbell.net (Mark Romans) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 00:45:06 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Hate to ask, but was this engine originally designed for a turbo? What's the compression ratio? Bruce is right, 5 lbs of boost at steady state? And you want to run regular? Loaded on Hills? Mark -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor. > >Your expecting to run 5 PSI boost steady state??.... >I really don't know of anything other than a farm tractor that can do that. >That is a tremendous load... >Doc > > >| Loaded down with a roof rack, camping >| supplies, tools and spare parts (and a dog) and I was running a constant 5 >| psi of boost at 65 - 70 mph and 8 psi on the big hills. Water tank ran >| dry in the first 30 - 45 minutes. >| Knock isn't so bad on premium, but I'd like to run mid (or even low) >| octane fuel without a problem. >| --Dan >| houlster at inficad.com > > From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Wed May 26 05:15:30 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 01:15:30 -0400 Subject: Bosch D-Jetronic Message-ID: I had a d-jet on my 914's , I used to time trail one at sears point. there is one outside in my 72 Saab 99. I eventually built a 8051 replacement, but the original system was quite capable, I've heard stories of guys putting roll bars in 914's and drilling into and through the ECU and the car still ran, makes you wonder. I have never seen a complete schematic, however there was a subset of d-jet ECU's that had a mixture adjustment control on the ECU, also I have found that old temp sensors generally didn't work, also the points used in the distributor should be checked out. I used to disconnect the inlet temp sensor, (not the head temp sensor), this tricked the ECU into running rich. also another trick was to drill out the plug in the external map sensor so you could adjust that. a long time ago I vaguely remember seeing some schematic details in one of my Porsche club archive books, I'll check and see if I still have it. I wish I still had that 914 too. Ted Stowe -----Original Message----- From: James Thomas [mailto:jtvol at dcs-chico.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 6:05 PM To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Bosch D-Jetronic Here is a good one for you guys. I own a Volvo Specialty Service in California. I am 50 years old and an old SCCA racer (used to race in E-Production in a '58 Porsche Speedster in the 1970's). I am completing a new project for SCCA racing, a 1971 Volvo 142 to compete in ITB. Pretty much got all the tricks down. This car is brand new from the ground up (every nut, bolt and molecule). Got all the latest trick ideas from my other Volvo ITB racers that I have been helping for the last few years. I am planning this one to be a world beater ( if I can still drive ). Here is the question...I am having a problem finding a schematic of the D-Jetronic control unit (MPC) so I can adjust the fuel mixture in different ranges. I don't want to mess with the head temp sensor resistance as it seems to mess up the injection timing, got to work on the inside. Haven't gotten much from Bosch. Need some engineering brains who might have some thoughts on modifying the innards of this unit. Any thoughts out there? James Thomas James Thomas Independent Volvo Service From gustaf.ulander at bercoproduktion.se Wed May 26 05:16:25 1999 From: gustaf.ulander at bercoproduktion.se (Gustaf Ulander) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 01:16:25 -0400 Subject: Need help with Bosch part no. Message-ID: Hi List I would need some hwlp with a Bosch part number - it is a (special) fuel pressure regulator from a 1979 (ish) Saab 99 Turbo (K-jetronic). Looks as your normal pressure regulator, but I suspect it should reference to boost, but I'm not sure, and don't know the "rate" (boost vs fuel pressure). The part number is 0 280 160 208 , stamped under that is 822. Regards Gustaf _______________________________________ Gustaf Ulander Quality and Environmental affairs Berco Produktion AB, Skelleftea, Sweden phone +46 (0)910-77 51 00 telefax +46 (0)910-854 93 Personal homepage; http://www.look.at/Ford_Capri From gustaf.ulander at bercoproduktion.se Wed May 26 05:16:25 1999 From: gustaf.ulander at bercoproduktion.se (Gustaf Ulander) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 01:16:25 -0400 Subject: SV: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Hi How about the Saab APC (automatic performance control) system? Designed to work on a tuboed engine, monitors knock and lowers the boost. Adjustable too. See http://hjem.get2net.dk/bengaard/apc-syst.htm or http://www.teleport.com/~bertram/volvoapc/ for descriptions on how to adapt the system to another engine. Guess you have to be cautious that the sensor react to "your" frequencys though... Regards Gustaf -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr?n: d houlton x0710 Till: EFI Datum: den 25 maj 1999 21:43 ?mne: Ignition retard knock sensor. >Is anybody here working on some sort of ignition retarding knock sensor? >I know the basics of how they work, but have seen a lot of discussion >in the past couple years about how difficult it is to filter the >sensor output accurately, especially when dealing with different engines >and sensor locations. > >I'm having a serious problem with knock on my turbo'd engine. To the >point I'm actually considering dishing out the $400 - $500 (or more) >for the J&S knock sensor system. I've found a lot of reviews of it on >the net and it does seem to work as advertised. It has the ability to >retard individual knocking cylinders instead of all cylinders when >knock is present. > >Thought I'd try the list first to see if there was a project in prgress >that I could maybe get in on and help out any way I could. Or, if >maybe there is already a DIY kit someone is working/developing on that >they're considering selling. > >thanks >--Dan >houlster at inficad.com >http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm > From houlster at user2.inficad.com Wed May 26 05:22:02 1999 From: houlster at user2.inficad.com (Daniel Houlton) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 01:22:02 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > Your expecting to run 5 PSI boost steady state??.... > I really don't know of anything other than a farm tractor that can do that. > That is a tremendous load... > Doc > Well, I wasn't actually expecting to run that steadily, it just kinda happened once I got loaded down. Doing 65 on the freeway empty doesn't do it. Add the roof rack and it goes to about 2 psi. Actually put stuff in the rack and load the back up with a few hundred pounds and it goes up to 4 - 5 (hovered around 4 on the way there, 5 on the way back. Big headwind.) depending on wind and/or any slight inclines in the road. To say I was a bit concerned is an understatement as I didn't really know if it's safe to do or not. It held up fine though and hasn't missed a beat. The oil does look very dirty though. I changed it just before I left (at about 2600 miles) and now 1400 miles later it's looking much dirtier than when I changed it before. Surprisingly, I had very litte problem with knock on the trip, even when hitting 8 psi or so on the big hills. In city driving, if I gas it enough to hit 7 or 8 psi pulling off from a light it'll knock like crazy a lot of the time. I just attributed it to the high speed keeping the underhood temps (and hence intake air) much cooler than city driving does. Around town, I drive with a very light foot, rarely exceeding 5 psi or tripping the WOT switch (different story) as a result until I get things ironed out. --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From houlster at user2.inficad.com Wed May 26 05:41:09 1999 From: houlster at user2.inficad.com (Daniel Houlton) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 01:41:09 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Mark Romans wrote: > > Hate to ask, but was this engine originally designed for a turbo? What's > the compression ratio? Bruce is right, 5 lbs of boost at steady state? And > you want to run regular? Loaded on Hills? > Mark Compression is 8.6:1 Timing is 12 deg BTDC. And no, the engine to my knowledge isn't actually designed for a turbo, although a smaller version (.3l smaller) used in cars was (that's where the turbo and exhaust manifold came from). Also, the factory shop manual does say something about it cooling the underside of the pistons with oil like some turbo engines do. It doesn't actually say it has an oil jet spraying the backside though. OK, I just checked the wording again. It says "An oil jet on the connecting rod provides lubrication to the backside of the piston." Would that be a cooling spray or is it just to lubricate the wrist pin? Also, my cooling system is pretty good I think. I had overheating problems during extended crawling around the desert in the summer. I upgraded the stock, single row radiator (about 1/2" thick) to a much larger capacity 3 row core (about 2" thick) when I put the turbo on so I think I have some breathing room there. Does that really make a difference for extended boost? 9 psi on regular? Is that too much to ask? Sounds like it eh? I don't typically drive a lot loaded down through the hills. Maybe a half dozen times a year on various trips which I can use higher octane gas for. I just hate having to pay for it all the time when I actually only need it about 1% of the time. Hence the thought of an ignition retarding knock sensor for that 1%. Also, I've gotten quite good at driving it an avoiding detonation. I'd hate the thought of letting (or needing to let) someone else drive it. --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From dzorde at erggroup.com Wed May 26 06:19:31 1999 From: dzorde at erggroup.com (dzorde at erggroup.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 02:19:31 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: Thanks Shannen, seems to work fine for me. Although it hasn't got what I'm after unfortunately. Dan dzorde at erggroup.com I use this link: http://sura1.jlab.org/~grippo/auto_noframe.html I have trouble with the frames. Shannen From dzorde at erggroup.com Wed May 26 06:22:17 1999 From: dzorde at erggroup.com (dzorde at erggroup.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 02:22:17 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: Thanks Dave, will do some measurements tonight and see if I can bring it back that far without any major machine work. Dan dzorde at erggroup.com Run 8:1 TurboDave From ken at staff.cs.uit.no Wed May 26 06:31:01 1999 From: ken at staff.cs.uit.no (Ken-Arne Jensen) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 02:31:01 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck dilemma Message-ID: Hi Carl May 26 1999 > Hi People, > I have spent an entire day trying to diagnose a problem, to no > avail. When the engine starts it runs fine for approx 10 seconds,then starts > running extremely rich.....I then rev it up to "clean" it out and block > learns and integrators are reasonable (123-125) then gradually returning to From ken at staff.cs.uit.no Wed May 26 06:35:26 1999 From: ken at staff.cs.uit.no (Ken-Arne Jensen) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 02:35:26 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck dilemma Message-ID: Hi Carl May 26 1999 > Hi People, > I have spent an entire day trying to diagnose a problem, to no > avail. When the engine starts it runs fine for approx 10 seconds,then starts > running extremely rich.....I then rev it up to "clean" it out and block > learns and integrators are reasonable (123-125) then gradually returning to < stuff deleted> > Customer had just come from muffler shop and had new o2 sensor, y pipe and > cat back system installed since previous shop had told him he had a plugged > cat. You should check the new O2 sensor and connections. You don't tell if these problems started after this service though, but a defective O2 sensor might very well give these kinds of problems. --Ken-Arne //// Ken-Arne Jensen // E-Mail: ken at staff.cs.uit.no / /// Computer Science Department // URL: http://www.cs.uit.no/~ken // // University of Troms? // Phone: +47-776-44042 /// / N-9000 Troms?, NORWAY // Fax: 44054 (barcode="ken at staff.cs.ui") //// From Regnirps at aol.com Wed May 26 07:02:51 1999 From: Regnirps at aol.com (Regnirps at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 03:02:51 -0400 Subject: Bosch sensor Message-ID: Anybody now the part number for the generic Bosch EGO sensor of the top of your head? Or what they call it at a Shucks or performance house? Thanks, Charlie Springer From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 26 11:48:07 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 07:48:07 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: I'd get an EGT, and Oil Temp guage on that, right away. I'd get Corky Bell's and Hugh Mc Innes books on turbos in short order, also. Grumpy | Compression is 8.6:1 Timing is 12 deg BTDC. And no, the engine | to my knowledge isn't actually designed for a turbo, although a | smaller version (.3l smaller) used in cars was (that's where the | turbo and exhaust manifold came from). Also, the factory shop | manual does say something about it cooling the underside of the | pistons with oil like some turbo engines do. It doesn't actually | say it has an oil jet spraying the backside though. OK, I just | checked the wording again. It says "An oil jet on the connecting | rod provides lubrication to the backside of the piston." Would | that be a cooling spray or is it just to lubricate the wrist pin? | | Also, my cooling system is pretty good I think. I had overheating | problems during extended crawling around the desert in the summer. | I upgraded the stock, single row radiator (about 1/2" thick) to a | much larger capacity 3 row core (about 2" thick) when I put the | turbo on so I think I have some breathing room there. Does that | really make a difference for extended boost? | | 9 psi on regular? Is that too much to ask? Sounds like it eh? | I don't typically drive a lot loaded down through the hills. Maybe | a half dozen times a year on various trips which I can use higher | octane gas for. I just hate having to pay for it all the time | when I actually only need it about 1% of the time. Hence the | thought of an ignition retarding knock sensor for that 1%. Also, | I've gotten quite good at driving it an avoiding detonation. I'd | hate the thought of letting (or needing to let) someone else | drive it. | --Dan From cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net Wed May 26 13:09:52 1999 From: cbrooks1 at mail.tqci.net (Charles Brooks) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:09:52 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: What type of ignition and what Compression are you running? If you're running a relatively high compression ratio you may have to live with premium fuel. Adding an intercooler will reduce charge temps and help with the knock problem. If you have an MSD ignition I would suggest purchasing the MSD BTM (Boost Timing Master) module. The BTM retards timing as boost comes on. I'm in the planning stages of Turbocharging a small block Chevy. Actually I'm $1500 inot the planning stage :) I have the manifolds, turbo, wastegate, oil lines, and various little stuff. I just have to convince my wife that it's an excuse to buy a beater now! Contact me off list if ya like, I'd be glad to share any info I have found or might have. Charles Brooks ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Daniel Houlton Reply-To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:43:25 -0700 (MST) >C. Brooks wrote: > > Has the engine always knocked, or did it begin recently? > > Charles Brooks Nope. Mysteriously, it started after I added the turbo :) I have other things I need to fix like getting an intercooler installed and getting a cold air induction system set up that will help a lot, but I don't know how long that'll take me and I'm still concerned that it won't eliminate the knock. I've set the timing back to stock from having it advanced a bit pre- turbo and that helped. Also, I'm running water injection but want to eliminate that as well. I recently made a round trip of about 9 hours each way (a few days apart). Loaded down with a roof rack, camping supplies, tools and spare parts (and a dog) and I was running a constant 5 psi of boost at 65 - 70 mph and 8 psi on the big hills. Water tank ran dry in the first 30 - 45 minutes. Knock isn't so bad on premium, but I'd like to run mid (or even low) octane fuel without a problem. --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Wed May 26 13:24:14 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:24:14 -0400 Subject: Emulators Message-ID: I haven't forgotten about the emulator... Got a message last night that the Gerber files were missing cut lines and alignment marks... re-did them and sent them on. Should be about 2-4 more weeks (Sigh) before the boards are here. From pford at qnx.com Wed May 26 14:07:24 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:07:24 -0400 Subject: 7730 and dis Message-ID: Hi All: I have a dis ( distiruterless ign sys) off a cavalier and want to know how to make the sensor wheel. what I had in mind was a 6" dia 3/8 steel plate with 6 slots @ 60 degrees and an extra one @ 10 tdc. how large should the slots be? Does anyone have a bin for a 7730 app that is around 2.25L? Can anyone recommend a disassembler ( I'd preffer a unix or source code beast) Thanks Pat ( still has alot to learn) ford -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 26 14:41:16 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:41:16 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: COOL CARS CL!, Never heard of a TERRAPLANE! That must be a HUGE ONE!! ey? Thanks for the enlightment of the % factor of the weight n HP! Hadn't seen it in the way you explained it! Makes more since now! Preciate it! LATER! Todd.... CLsnyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd....!! > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 7:55 PM > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > Thanks for those numbers man! > > > > Where'd you pick the numbers up at? > > > > Well that's PLENTY of power! > > > > I'd rather have HP than lightness.... > > > I've been a Mopar Man for years - owned a 241 cu Hemi Coronet (1953) among > others. Interest in old cars has had me owning, over the years, a '28 chevy > national, '35 chevy master, 37 hudson terraplane, '53 coronet sierra (hemi), > '57 fargo custom express(rarest truck produced by chrysler since the 2nd > war), '63 valiant 170, '49 VW beetle, etc. etc. > > Have collected a LOT of info over the years - service data books, catalogs, > etc. > > > I believe this due ot the following logic....: > > > > If you remove 100 lbs. of weight from a car, the e.t.'s will drop by .1 > > > > If you add only 10 hp the e.t. will drop .1 seconds as well! > > depends on the overall weight of the vehicle. If 100 lbs is .5% of vehicle > weight it makes les difference than if it is 5%. > If 10hp is .5% of power it makes less difference than if it is 5%. > > > > Does this agree with ya'll's pallete's or is something in err with my > > logic? > > > > LATER! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Todd....!! > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 12:45 PM > > > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > > > > > I hear ya talkin rap, > > > > > > > > All VERY good real world advice and points! > > > > > > > > BUT, the LOOKS of the HEMI are AWESOME! > > > > > > > > How many HP do ya think are possible outaof a 392? > > > > > > > > What was the torque and hp from the factory? > > > > > > 390 hp at 5400 stock with solid lifters and dual quads. > > > 375 at 5200 stock dual quad and hydraulic cam.(300c) > > > 325 at 4600 single quad hydraulic. > > > > > > > > I don't even know the bore n stroke of teh sucker, but those HEADS ARE > > > > HUGE MAN!! > > > > > > > 4" bore, 3.9 stroke. > > > > From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 26 14:41:32 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:41:32 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: That does seem a bit odd to have that much boost while not under accel. I believe my 91 Eclipse Turbo 5-speed is runnin a negative pressure on the gauge at those hiway speeds... Have never found the top end on the thing, I had to let off at 135, due to lack of cahones n all... Teh road was smooth, but I was on teh feeder of the beltway and didn't want to come up on a civilian pullin out of a turnaround spot or somethin... People regularly run 100+ on the highways of Houston... And the wierd thing is is that they don't seem to pass anyone at a very fast rate! The speed limits are over 60 nowadays ya know.... However, since the Eclipse needs about $500 worth of work, the Superbee's keepin me at a sane speed, maybe a bit too sane, like 50-55 mph on the 65+mph highways... due to the gears and no overdrive and big ol 440 with hardly ANY load on it at that speed and that rpm(3,000rpm) n all... LATER! Todd....!! Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Your expecting to run 5 PSI boost steady state??.... > I really don't know of anything other than a farm tractor that can do that. > That is a tremendous load... > Doc > > | Loaded down with a roof rack, camping > | supplies, tools and spare parts (and a dog) and I was running a constant 5 > | psi of boost at 65 - 70 mph and 8 psi on the big hills. Water tank ran > | dry in the first 30 - 45 minutes. > | Knock isn't so bad on premium, but I'd like to run mid (or even low) > | octane fuel without a problem. > | --Dan > | houlster at inficad.com From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 26 14:41:47 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:41:47 -0400 Subject: SpeedBrain... to the rescue....?? Message-ID: Latest addition of Performance 5.0 or somethin like that, on the newstand yesterday, had a test of one of em... However, get this, the _-trim supercharged Stang test 'mule's' fuel pump wasn't strong enough to even get anywhere NEAR a baseline with the stocker EEC-IV computer, much less the Speedbrain! The thing leaned out even with the stock EEC! it went from the, apparantly, all important 12.5 a/f ratio to like 13:1 and so they shut er down and swapped computers to the speed brain and continued the test.... But they STILL tried to do the test with the 'hi-po' speedbrain in the EEC's place! It had an overall average of abotu 15 hp throughout the 'useable' rpm range of the CHASSIS dyno test... What a crappy way to test a product! How hard is it and how long would it take for a PROFESSIONAL place to swap out a crappy fuel pump for a GOOD HI-PO unit at a race shop that runs dyno's for all sorts of people! This company who's Chassis dyno was used was a certified Accel DFI installation business! What, no fuel pumps layin around? I'd bet it'd only take from 10 minutes to an hour MAX to swap out the fuel pump and get some GOOD numbers!! Thanks for the info... They also said that the unit sells for like $699... They said this is the most inexpensive MAF type aftermarket unit..outside of some sorta pigy back non-programmable system.. can't remember the name of the other one... LATER! Todd....!! David A. Cooley wrote: > > Speed brain is vaporware. > The manufacturer has been saying for 2-3 years it's there, but no one has > ever seen it except for the "secret beta testers". > > At 04:21 PM 5/25/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Hello all, > > > >Jsut got back from lunch a lil while ago.... > > > >Read an article at the newstand about an aftermarket EFI computer that > >uses two inputs, and no tables, for it's fuel curve, however it plugs > >DIRECTLY into the EEC-IV harness, in place of the EEC-IV itself! And > >uses a MAF, so it's limited to about 600 hp due to MAF's limited clarity > >at higher than 600 hp apps.... Other than that, it got TWO thumbs up by > >the editors.... > > > >It's a plug n play deal, and has full data acquisition, even a laptop > >dashboard program so you can use the computer instead of dashboard > >instruments to guide you on your journeys... > > > >Heck, it'll even play the SOUND back from your runs along with > >synchronized instrument playback on the laptop simulated dash program! > > > >COOL? > > > >Have any of ya'll heard of this gizmo? > > > >It seems as though one of ya'll coulda came up with thie system easily, > >some of ya probably already have!! > > > >Lemme know? > > > >LATER! > > > >Todd....!! > > > > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 26 14:42:07 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:42:07 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: I've seen people runnin as high as 10.5:1 with a big ol BDS blower on their BIG V-8.... They were runnin alcohol however, so the fuel you stated you will be using is an important factor.... I'd go with the 8:1 as well... Another tidbit that may or may not help is that my 91 Mitsu Eclipse Turbo 5-speed had only 120 lbs. of compression pressure on all four sylinders.... Whereas my 69 440 in my 70 Superbee blew 205 in most of the cylinders... It has flat tops with open chambered heads, and should be at about high 10.x:1 compression... Somethin to think about.... LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm David Piper wrote: > > Run 8:1 > > At 08:50 AM 5/26/99 +0800, you wrote: > > > > > >Hello fellow diy's, > > > >Been of the list a while as I have changed jobs (took a while to get a new > >email > >going). Anyway, I tried getting to Bruce's calculation page as I was hoping > >for > >a guiding formula for selecting compression ratio (CR) based on s/c boost, > >however I keep getting the message the page is not available (anyone else > >having > >problems accessing it from the efi332 home page ?). > > > >Does anyone have anything I can use as a guide for calculating max possible CR > >on a forced induction engine ? I know the standard formula but it doesn't > take > >boost into account. > > > >If there is no such formula, what would be a feasible CR in a Fiat 903cc motor > >running max 16PSI boost ? (8:1, 7:1 ?) Looking at running on standard 96 > >octane > >leaded or possibly 100 avgas. > > > >Thanks in advance > > > >Dan dzorde at erggroup.com > > > > TurboDave From tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com Wed May 26 15:31:42 1999 From: tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:31:42 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 02:55 PM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote: > >OK David, > > > >Ya just made me think of a question havin to do with the 'diesel' > >principle that you just stated.... > > > >Most diesels' static compression ratio's are pretty much over 20:1 > >right? > > > > For the most part... some turbo diesels are 18:1 or so, but normally > aspirated diesels are 22:1 to 25:1 CR > > >Why don't they just squirt regular fuel in at these temps instead of > >diesel? > > > > the rate of combustion would be too high and the detonation resistance too > low... Basically would blow the heads right off the engine! > (Seen it happen on a mercedes 300D... guy filled up with Regular gas and > drove off... about a block later, heard a large BOOM and he was at the side > of the road with lots of smoke... Opened the hood and it appeared to have > sheared the head bolts... head was about 1/4" above the block!) Yeah, but isn't that because the injection system is tuned for diesel? Couldn't injecting gasoline still work if the injection system was calibrated for gasoline? i.e. maybe inject it at a slower rate? --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From rmjones at cyberhighway.net Wed May 26 15:42:44 1999 From: rmjones at cyberhighway.net (M. Jones) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:42:44 -0400 Subject: IAC problem solved Message-ID: Well, took the boat (with the 4D system) out of storage last weekend and tuned it up. Had a problem last season with intermittent 'failures' of the IAC. Sometimes the IAC would freeze and idle would be way high or way low. Shut down and restart the engine and it would be O.K. for a while. Finally had enough time to properly troubleshoot and found that the IAC system was actually fine. Hysteresis in the TPS (which tells the 4D to go to idle mode at 30 degrees throttle angle) as well as in the throttle linkage would occasionally not let the TPS get to 30 degrees. The ECU therefore was still in run mode, and so no IAC activity. Set the closed throttle TPS position to 28 degrees and problem solved. Nice when things work out! Mike J. From tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com Wed May 26 15:43:39 1999 From: tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:43:39 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Falb, John wrote: > > I'm having a serious problem with knock on my turbo'd engine. To the > point I'm actually considering dishing out the $400 - $500 (or more) > for the J&S knock sensor system. > > > > You can get it for more like 250.00 from J&S, and yes they work. But they Do you happen to have a contact for them? I've done a net search and found 2 or 3 places selling them. All were around $389 - $399 for the module and another $100 - $120 or so for the optional meter if you wanted it. > are not a good solution for a constantly knocking engine. They will retard > too much and take too long to recover. They really shine when you have > occasional knock and don't want to harm the engine. That's just what I'm looking for. Occasional knock when I whack the throttle open and boost jumps to 8 or 9 psi. Slowly opening the throttle and gradually hitting 8 or 9 psi doesn't knock nearly so bad. --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From rmjones at cyberhighway.net Wed May 26 15:44:31 1999 From: rmjones at cyberhighway.net (M. Jones) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:44:31 -0400 Subject: 305V8 convert to EFI Message-ID: Frederic Breitwieser wrote: >>1. Holley 4D or 4DI system. Carb-like creature that attaches to your existing intake, and adjust electronically to your tastes. Carb-like? Ouch! Mike J. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Wed May 26 15:47:07 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:47:07 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > Yeah, but isn't that because the injection system is tuned for diesel? > Couldn't injecting gasoline still work if the injection system was calibrated > for gasoline? i.e. maybe inject it at a slower rate? Sounds reasonable, but the properties of gasoline may still be too "explosive" to be done that way. From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Wed May 26 16:07:11 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:07:11 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: -> I have schematic of orig Carter knock eliminator. Understand that -> each engine has unique acoustic profile that may require filtering to -> be effective. I've used the Carter boxes on several small block Chevys. None of them had any problem differentiating knock from other noise. As far as I can tell the EKE is more concerned about amplitude than frequency. Very simple analog devices, but quite effective. From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Wed May 26 16:07:28 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:07:28 -0400 Subject: SpeedBrain... to the rescue....?? Message-ID: -> Speed brain is vaporware. -> The manufacturer has been saying for 2-3 years it's there, but no one -> has ever seen it except for the "secret beta testers". Vaporware seems to be endemic to the EEC aftermarket... From tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com Wed May 26 16:08:00 1999 From: tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:08:00 -0400 Subject: SV: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Gustaf Ulander wrote: > > Hi > > How about the Saab APC (automatic performance control) system? Designed to > work on a tuboed engine, monitors knock and lowers the boost. Adjustable I've seen the pages on the APC, but in my case it wouldn't work. It's only useful if you're using higher boost than the wastegate actuator would normally allow. It works by bleeding off the pressure signal to the actuator giving higher boost. When knock occurs, it stops bleeding off the pressure so the wastegate opens earlier, cutting boost. But, it can only go as low as the actuator will allow when getting full pressure signal. For me, that is 9 psi. I'd need to switch to a new actuator or lengthen the arm on it to get max un-bled boost at say 5 or 6 psi, then use the APC to allow boost up 9 psi for it to work as designed. It could then drop boost back to as low as 5 or 6 psi when knocking. Hmm, maybe I could cut a section out of the actuator rod, thread the cut ends and use a turnbuckle and jam nut to make it adjustable? That doesn't sound all that complicated. And it's fail-safe. If I screwed it up and stripped threads or the rod broke or whatever, the wastegate would open freely giving probably almost no boost. 9 psi is actually much higher than I had anticipated and I don't hardly ever hit it anyways. The APC then could work. It's pretty cheap too from a junkyard. > too. See http://hjem.get2net.dk/bengaard/apc-syst.htm or > http://www.teleport.com/~bertram/volvoapc/ for descriptions on how to adapt > the system to another engine. Guess you have to be cautious that the sensor > react to "your" frequencys though... Agreed. That seems to be crux of the matter for any knock detection system. I've found 2 or 3 reviews of the J & S system on Miatas though and they all seem to be extremely pleased with the results. --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com Wed May 26 16:28:21 1999 From: tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:28:21 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > I'd get an EGT, and Oil Temp guage on that, right away. Geez, I'm beginning to think I've been extremely lucky so far. I did some checking into an EGT gauge a few months ago. Asked the list about it too. The AutoMeter EGT gauge was on the order of $250. I did get some leads on some cheaper alternatives, some targeted towards aviation, but I haven't followed through with them yet. I was led to believe that EGT wasn't a critical thing to monitor unless I'm running lean, which I've been using the A/F meter to avoid. FWIW, my exhaust manifold and turbine scroll housing are ceramic coated as well. Oil temp I considered as well, but with a water cooled turbo and a large capacity cooling system I felt it wasn't critical. Mayhap it is after all? > I'd get Corky Bell's and Hugh Mc Innes books on turbos in short order, also. I've got them both which is where I learned 99% of what I know about turbos and used them extensively during the installation. I know Corky stresses the importance of monitoring oil temp, but he also stated that water cooled turbos pretty much eliminated any turbo overheating problems as well, hence my lack of an oil temp gauge right now. Perhaps though, now that I know I will be running extended boost when loaded down that I should get one to know what's going on and install an oil cooler if necessary? thanks for the patience... --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com Wed May 26 16:45:02 1999 From: tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:45:02 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Charles Brooks wrote: > > What type of ignition and what Compression are you running? If you're running a relatively high compression ratio you may have to live with premium fuel. Adding an intercooler will reduce charge temps and help with the knock problem. If you have an MSD ignition I would suggest purchasing the MSD BTM (Boost Timing Master) module. The BTM retards timing as boost comes on. I'm in the planning stages of Turbocharging a small block Chevy. Actually I'm $1500 inot the planning stage :) I have the manifolds, turbo, wastegate, oil lines, and various little stuff. I just have to convince my wife that it's an excuse to buy a beater now! I've looked at the BTM as well. It's still about $300 I think. The only thing I don't like is that it's a passive device, retarding ignition solely on boost level and doing it all the time. In the last few months, I've found that detonation is *not* directly related to boost. On 89 octane and no water injection for instance, if I whack the throttle open above about 2000 rpm, boost jumps almost instantly to 5 - 6 psi. Detonation is almost instant as well. However, if I ease into the throttle and let boost come up over 2 or 3 seconds, it can go to 7 or 8 psi with no detonation. Also, if I'm in a situation where I want to accelerate and I'm at say 3000 rpm in a high gear. I can press the throttle up to a certain point (probably about 3/4) and get say 6 or 7 psi with no detonation. If I then floor it, boost doesn't increase very quickly until the rpms come up a bit (takes longer in high gear) and the mixture isn't going lean according to the A/F meter, but detonation happens pretty much instantly. Still can't figure that one out. Boost and A/F don't change very quickly, but detonation seems to be tied directly to the gas pedal. It seems that unless you can factor in rpm (at the very least) in addition to boost to more accurately predict knock, you have to *really* retard ignition to cover the worst case, which makes you suffer a power loss most of the time. That's why I figured the active J & S system would be much better. Although the MSD also has the advantage of a much hotter spark and is something I want to upgrade eventually anyways I'm not sure how much I want to retard ignition across the board based only on boost level. -Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 26 16:52:13 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:52:13 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: | Bruce Plecan wrote: | > I'd get an EGT, and Oil Temp guage on that, right away. | Geez, I'm beginning to think I've been extremely lucky so far. You very well may be......... | I did some checking into an EGT gauge a few months ago. Asked the | list about it too. The AutoMeter EGT gauge was on the order of $250. | I did get some leads on some cheaper alternatives, some targeted | towards aviation, but I haven't followed through with them yet. I | was led to believe that EGT wasn't a critical thing to monitor unless | I'm running lean, which I've been using the A/F meter to avoid. EGT is critical for the novice, and pro alike. It tells you where our playing in relationship to the thermal limits of your engine. FWIW, | my exhaust manifold and turbine scroll housing are ceramic coated as | well. | Oil temp I considered as well, but with a water cooled turbo and a | large capacity cooling system I felt it wasn't critical. Mayhap it | is after all? Water cooled cartridge for the turbo has little inpact on the oil temp feeding the engine bearings.... Cooling the cartirdge is to min oil coking in the turbo. | > I'd get Corky Bell's and Hugh Mc Innes books on turbos in short order, also. | I've got them both which is where I learned 99% of what I know about | turbos and used them extensively during the installation. I know Corky | stresses the importance of monitoring oil temp, but he also stated that | water cooled turbos pretty much eliminated any turbo overheating problems | as well, hence my lack of an oil temp gauge right now. Buzz words turbo overheating, you can percolate oil til it easily losses it ability to lubricate bearings!. | Perhaps though, now that I know I will be running extended boost when | loaded down that I should get one to know what's going on and install | an oil cooler if necessary? Measure the temp., and see where you are. Get a temp., and call Earls' or someone to get a rough idea of what you need. Why bother putting one on if it's not sized right. Sneezy | thanks for the patience... | --Dan From tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com Wed May 26 17:02:25 1999 From: tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:02:25 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Todd....!! wrote: > > That does seem a bit odd to have that much boost while not under accel. > > I believe my 91 Eclipse Turbo 5-speed is runnin a negative pressure on > the gauge at those hiway speeds... Have never found the top end on the Yeah, but that's an Eclipse. I kinda explained this in another message, but when I'm not loaded down, I'm at vacuum while cruising at 65 as well. Add the roof rack and put stuff in it and it makes my aerodynamic brick seem more like an aerodynamic barn door. Throw a few hundred pounds in back and I'm rapidly approaching 5000 lbs and barn (not just barn door) status. Also, at 5 lbs of boost, my little engine is still only putting out probably about 155 hp at the flywheel (120 stock). Plus, I'm sure I have a *bit* more in drive train losses than an Eclipse does. Pushing a 5000 lb barn door at 65 mph takes considerably more hp than does a slippery little sports car. > thing, I had to let off at 135, due to lack of cahones n all... Teh :) I think about 85 is the highest I'll ever try and see in my truck. --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From jamesm at talarian.com Wed May 26 17:21:33 1999 From: jamesm at talarian.com (James Montebello) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:21:33 -0400 Subject: Bosch D-Jetronic Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01BEA761.596CC740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might consult with VW and Porsche types. D-Jet was used extensively in the early '70s on a number of VW models, and the Porsche 914. There are some 914 web sites that offer detailed info on D-Jet, at least as used by the Germans. Charles Pobst's book on Bosch injection systems also covers D-Jet in detail. My take on this is that you'd be better off replacing the OEM analog ECU with a digital version that you could remap at will. james montebello -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of James Thomas Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 6:05 PM To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Bosch D-Jetronic Here is a good one for you guys. I own a Volvo Specialty Service in California. I am 50 years old and an old SCCA racer (used to race in E-Production in a '58 Porsche Speedster in the 1970's). I am completing a new project for SCCA racing, a 1971 Volvo 142 to compete in ITB. Pretty much got all the tricks down. This car is brand new from the ground up (every nut, bolt and molecule). Got all the latest trick ideas from my other Volvo ITB racers that I have been helping for the last few years. I am planning this one to be a world beater ( if I can still drive ). Here is the question...I am having a problem finding a schematic of the D-Jetronic control unit (MPC) so I can adjust the fuel mixture in different ranges. I don't want to mess with the head temp sensor resistance as it seems to mess up the injection timing, got to work on the inside. Haven't gotten much from Bosch. Need some engineering brains who might have some thoughts on modifying the innards of this unit. Any thoughts out there? James Thomas James Thomas Independent Volvo Service ------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01BEA761.596CC740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
You=20 might consult with VW and Porsche types.  D-Jet was used = extensively in the=20 early '70s on
a number of VW models, and the Porsche 914.  = There are=20 some 914 web sites that offer detailed
info on D-Jet, at least as used by the=20 Germans.
 
Charles Pobst's book on Bosch injection systems also covers = D-Jet in=20 detail.
 
My=20 take on this is that you'd be better off replacing the OEM analog ECU = with a=20 digital version that
you=20 could remap at will.
 
james=20 montebello
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu=20 [mailto:owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of = James=20 Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 6:05 PM
To:=20 DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Bosch=20 D-Jetronic

Here is a good one for you = guys.  I own=20 a Volvo Specialty Service in California.  I am 50 years old and = an old=20 SCCA racer (used to race in E-Production in a '58 Porsche Speedster = in the=20 1970's).  I am completing a new project for SCCA racing, a 1971 = Volvo=20 142 to compete in ITB.  Pretty much got all the tricks = down.  This=20 car is brand new from the ground up (every nut, bolt and = molecule). =20 Got all the latest trick ideas from my other Volvo ITB racers = that I=20 have been helping for the last few years.  I am planning this = one to be=20 a world beater ( if I can still drive ).  Here is the = question...I am=20 having a problem finding a schematic of the D-Jetronic control = unit=20 (MPC) so I can adjust the fuel mixture in different = ranges.  I=20 don't want to mess with the head temp sensor resistance as it = seems to=20 mess up the injection timing, got to work on the inside. Haven't = gotten much=20 from Bosch.  Need some engineering brains who might have some = thoughts=20 on modifying the innards of this unit.
Any thoughts out = there?
James Thomas
James Thomas Independent Volvo=20 Service
------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01BEA761.596CC740-- From houlster at user2.inficad.com Wed May 26 17:23:49 1999 From: houlster at user2.inficad.com (Daniel Houlton) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:23:49 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > EGT is critical for the novice, and pro alike. It tells you where our > playing in relationship to the thermal limits of your engine. Well then, it sounds like I should make that and an oil temp gauge a high priority before any extended trips. > > Water cooled cartridge for the turbo has little inpact on the oil temp > feeding the engine bearings.... Cooling the cartirdge is to min oil coking > in the turbo. The way I thought it worked was that the oil was over heated by the turbo. A water cooled cartridge cools the cartridge and prevents excessive heat from transferring to the oil. Is this not true or is it just the case that it reduces the heat transfer to the oil, but not necessarilly enough to not worry about it? > > Buzz words turbo overheating, you can percolate oil til it easily losses it > ability to lubricate bearings!. Would excessively dirty oil after relatively few miles (about 1400) be an indication of overheating the oil? I attributed the dirtyness to excessive blowby from running boost continuously for such a long period of time on a high mileage engine (it's got about 100,000 on the clock). It only happened during the trip. Prior oil changes (only one at about 2600 miles) with the turbo looked normal. > > | Perhaps though, now that I know I will be running extended boost when > | loaded down that I should get one to know what's going on and install > | an oil cooler if necessary? > > Measure the temp., and see where you are. Get a temp., and call Earls' or > someone to get a rough idea of what you need. Why bother putting one on if > it's not sized right. Good point. --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 26 17:26:42 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:26:42 -0400 Subject: 7730 and dis Message-ID: Subject: 7730 and dis | Does anyone have a bin for a 7730 app that is around 2.25L? DIS-Ditributor-TBI-TPI-4cyl-6cyl. I've just quit assuming.. Grumpy | Can anyone recommend a disassembler ( I'd preffer a unix or source code beast) | Thanks | Pat ( still has alot to learn) ford From gderian at oh.verio.com Wed May 26 17:29:18 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:29:18 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: How did it drive before the turbo? If it takes 5 psi steady state now, before the turbo it should not have been able to maintain speed. It sounds like the turbo addition has not improved power so much as it has increased detonation. What is the exhaust pressure while you are cruising at 5 psi boost, both before and after the turbo? Maybe the exhaust is plugged up, or just plain restrictive. Gary Derian > Nope. Mysteriously, it started after I added the turbo :) I have other > things I need to fix like getting an intercooler installed and getting a > cold air induction system set up that will help a lot, but I don't know > how long that'll take me and I'm still concerned that it won't eliminate > the knock. > > I've set the timing back to stock from having it advanced a bit pre- > turbo and that helped. Also, I'm running water injection but want to > eliminate that as well. I recently made a round trip of about 9 hours > each way (a few days apart). Loaded down with a roof rack, camping > supplies, tools and spare parts (and a dog) and I was running a constant 5 > psi of boost at 65 - 70 mph and 8 psi on the big hills. Water tank ran > dry in the first 30 - 45 minutes. > > Knock isn't so bad on premium, but I'd like to run mid (or even low) > octane fuel without a problem. > > > --Dan > houlster at inficad.com > http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From shannen at grolen.com Wed May 26 17:33:14 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:33:14 -0400 Subject: 305V8 convert to EFI Message-ID: M. Jones wrote: > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > >>1. Holley 4D or 4DI system. Carb-like creature that attaches to your > existing intake, and adjust electronically to your tastes. > > Carb-like? Ouch! > > Mike J. Carb-like in that it's not port injection, but throttle body. GM TBI is no less "carb-like" than the holley system. Shannen From houlster at user2.inficad.com Wed May 26 17:33:17 1999 From: houlster at user2.inficad.com (Daniel Houlton) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:33:17 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: d houlton x0710 wrote: > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > I'd get an EGT, and Oil Temp guage on that, right away. > > Geez, I'm beginning to think I've been extremely lucky so far. > > I did some checking into an EGT gauge a few months ago. Asked the > list about it too. The AutoMeter EGT gauge was on the order of $250. FYI, I just checked my latest JEG's catalog and they have the EGT UltraLight gauge listed now. Price is $110 for the gauge *and* sender. When I called Summit a few months ago with the part numbers I got from AutoMeter, they quoted $101 for the meter and another $141 (!) for the sender. Maybe it was a mistake? Anyways, I think I can afford getting one now... --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 26 17:55:21 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:55:21 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: | The way I thought it worked was that the oil was over heated by the turbo. | A water cooled cartridge cools the cartridge and prevents excessive heat | from transferring to the oil. Is this not true or is it just the case | that it reduces the heat transfer to the oil, but not necessarilly enough | to not worry about it? It might reduce it slightly. I've even heard some discussion, that the only time a water cooled center section is really effective is during engine shutdown,and it allows for some coolant circulation like the ol MG's and the thermal dyne cooling systems. | > Buzz words turbo overheating, you can percolate oil til it easily losses it | > ability to lubricate bearings!. | Would excessively dirty oil after relatively few miles (about 1400) be an | indication of overheating the oil? I attributed the dirtyness to excessive | blowby from running boost continuously for such a long period of time on a | high mileage engine (it's got about 100,000 on the clock). It only happened | during the trip. Prior oil changes (only one at about 2600 miles) with the | turbo looked normal. Part of what oil "breaks down" into is carbon. Also, as a byproduct of combustion various acids are formed which react with the oil. | > | Perhaps though, now that I know I will be running extended boost when | > | loaded down that I should get one to know what's going on and install | > | an oil cooler if necessary? | > Measure the temp., and see where you are. Get a temp., and call Earls' or | > someone to get a rough idea of what you need. Why bother putting one on if | > it's not sized right. grumpy | Good point. | --Dan From rmjones at cyberhighway.net Wed May 26 18:01:04 1999 From: rmjones at cyberhighway.net (M. Jones) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:01:04 -0400 Subject: 305V8 convert to EFI Message-ID: Oh, I know! Just that it works soooo much better than the carb did, especially with all the different altitudes I frequent. Mike J. Shannen Durphey wrote: M. Jones wrote: > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > >>1. Holley 4D or 4DI system. Carb-like creature that attaches to your > existing intake, and adjust electronically to your tastes. > > Carb-like? Ouch! > > Mike J. Carb-like in that it's not port injection, but throttle body. GM TBI is no less "carb-like" than the holley system. Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Wed May 26 18:05:50 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:05:50 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: Todd....!! wrote: > Another tidbit that may or may not help is that my 91 Mitsu Eclipse > Turbo 5-speed had only 120 lbs. of compression pressure on all four > sylinders.... > I believe that cranking compression ratio has more relation to stroke length and valve timing than compression ratio. Anyone? Shannen From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 26 18:07:56 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:07:56 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Sounds like it'd work Dan! I bet someone in here has maybe heard of some research on this priciple/theory!?!? ey? I like your turbo Amigo man! The DYNO graphs were DYNO-MITE! WAY COOL! LATER! Todd....!! ---------- d houlton x0710 wrote: > > David A. Cooley wrote: > > > > At 02:55 PM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >OK David, > > > > > >Ya just made me think of a question havin to do with the 'diesel' > > >principle that you just stated.... > > > > > >Most diesels' static compression ratio's are pretty much over 20:1 > > >right? > > > > > > > For the most part... some turbo diesels are 18:1 or so, but normally > > aspirated diesels are 22:1 to 25:1 CR > > > > >Why don't they just squirt regular fuel in at these temps instead of > > >diesel? > > > > > > > the rate of combustion would be too high and the detonation resistance too > > low... Basically would blow the heads right off the engine! > > (Seen it happen on a mercedes 300D... guy filled up with Regular gas and > > drove off... about a block later, heard a large BOOM and he was at the side > > of the road with lots of smoke... Opened the hood and it appeared to have > > sheared the head bolts... head was about 1/4" above the block!) > > Yeah, but isn't that because the injection system is tuned for diesel? > Couldn't injecting gasoline still work if the injection system was calibrated > for gasoline? i.e. maybe inject it at a slower rate? > > > --Dan > houlster at inficad.com > http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From houlster at user2.inficad.com Wed May 26 18:16:52 1999 From: houlster at user2.inficad.com (Daniel Houlton) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:16:52 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Gary Derian wrote: > > How did it drive before the turbo? If it takes 5 psi steady state now, > before the turbo it should not have been able to maintain speed. It sounds > like the turbo addition has not improved power so much as it has increased > detonation. The turbo has improved power considerably. I made the same trip last year. Across the flats with the turbo was 5th and about 4 - 5 psi at around 65 - 70 mph. Last year, cruise control was just to hold the pedal to the floor. No joke. I could only maintain 55 - 60 mph at WOT and most of the time was spent in 4th instead of 5th because it would just bog down. Hills took forever and even a slight headwind was horrendous. 3rd gear and 40 mph for the big hills pre-turbo. With the turbo I could make them in 4th at 7 - 8 psi boost and 65 mph. Last year the one way travel time averaged 10 hrs. This year it was 8.5 hrs. I do have dyno charts showing the power increases as well. The post turbo charts are all with HomeDyno, but it was calibrated doing pre-turbo runs against a chassis dyno run and was within a couple percent of that so it's pretty accurate. I won't be doing another chassis dyno run until my fueling and detonation limitations are worked out. > What is the exhaust pressure while you are cruising at 5 psi > boost, both before and after the turbo? I have no idea. I haven't seen pressure gauges for exhaust. Can you just use standard boost gauges with a good bit of metal tubing (like maybe several feet) tapped to the manifold and down pipe to allow the gas to cool before reaching the gauges? > Maybe the exhaust is plugged up, or > just plain restrictive. Doubtful. While the down pipe from the turbine is on the smallish size (stock one from the turbo car) the cat and muffler are both new free- flowing types. The down pipe is the bottleneck, but doubtfully enough to cause any problems. This is still a relatively low hp 4 cylinder engine. --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From jqadir at direct.ca Wed May 26 18:19:57 1999 From: jqadir at direct.ca (jq) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:19:57 -0400 Subject: Recall List Message-ID: stick it 2 the dealers. get ur moneys worth. check out ur recalls at www.alldata.com From claresnyder at home.com Wed May 26 18:27:49 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:27:49 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 11:50 AM Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > COOL CARS CL!, > > Never heard of a TERRAPLANE! That must be a HUGE ONE!! ey? Actually, the Terraplane was the LITTLE Hudson of the time - kinda like an old Willies, but a bit bigger. > > Thanks for the enlightment of the % factor of the weight n HP! > > Hadn't seen it in the way you explained it! > > Makes more since now! > > Preciate it! > > LATER! > > Todd.... > > > > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Todd....!! > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 7:55 PM > > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > > > Thanks for those numbers man! > > > > > > Where'd you pick the numbers up at? > > > > > > Well that's PLENTY of power! > > > > > > I'd rather have HP than lightness.... > > > > > I've been a Mopar Man for years - owned a 241 cu Hemi Coronet (1953) among > > others. Interest in old cars has had me owning, over the years, a '28 chevy > > national, '35 chevy master, 37 hudson terraplane, '53 coronet sierra (hemi), > > '57 fargo custom express(rarest truck produced by chrysler since the 2nd > > war), '63 valiant 170, '49 VW beetle, etc. etc. > > > > Have collected a LOT of info over the years - service data books, catalogs, > > etc. > > > > > I believe this due ot the following logic....: > > > > > > If you remove 100 lbs. of weight from a car, the e.t.'s will drop by .1 > > > > > > If you add only 10 hp the e.t. will drop .1 seconds as well! > > > > depends on the overall weight of the vehicle. If 100 lbs is .5% of vehicle > > weight it makes les difference than if it is 5%. > > If 10hp is .5% of power it makes less difference than if it is 5%. > > > > > > Does this agree with ya'll's pallete's or is something in err with my > > > logic? > > > > > > LATER! > > > > > > Todd....!! > > > > > > CLsnyder wrote: > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Todd....!! > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 12:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > > > > > > > I hear ya talkin rap, > > > > > > > > > > All VERY good real world advice and points! > > > > > > > > > > BUT, the LOOKS of the HEMI are AWESOME! > > > > > > > > > > How many HP do ya think are possible outaof a 392? > > > > > > > > > > What was the torque and hp from the factory? > > > > > > > > 390 hp at 5400 stock with solid lifters and dual quads. > > > > 375 at 5200 stock dual quad and hydraulic cam.(300c) > > > > 325 at 4600 single quad hydraulic. > > > > > > > > > > I don't even know the bore n stroke of teh sucker, but those HEADS ARE > > > > > HUGE MAN!! > > > > > > > > > 4" bore, 3.9 stroke. > > > > > > > > > From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Wed May 26 18:46:28 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:46:28 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: > I believe that cranking compression ratio has more relation to stroke > length and valve timing than compression ratio. Anyone? Compression ratio will affect it, but valve timing plays a BIG part in static cranking compression. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 26 19:15:39 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:15:39 -0400 Subject: 305V8 convert to EFI Message-ID: > Carb-like in that it's not port injection, but throttle body. GM TBI > is no less "carb-like" than the holley system. > Shannen This is true... however the GM TBI system requires more effort to install all the components, but is dirt cheap. The Holley setup is more flexible, can compensate for more radical cams, timing, lifters, etc, but is more expensive of course. I stated "carb-like" merely to create a visual, that's all. -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 26 19:16:05 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:16:05 -0400 Subject: 305V8 convert to EFI Message-ID: > Carb-like? Ouch! Visually... I wasn't insulting the product at all... just trying to describe it in two words or less :) -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 26 19:41:01 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:41:01 -0400 Subject: EEC -IV bins back online Message-ID: Sorry it took me so long to get to fixing my firewall... but its done. ftp://xephic.dynip.com/eec/ is where the EEC-IV bins are if anyone still wants them. -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com Wed May 26 19:52:07 1999 From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:52:07 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: You are correct, The mechanical compression ratio can be 10:1 but when you check it with a gauge the effective compression ratio pressure will be on par with a 9:1 engine. Mechanical compression gives you efficiency while effective compression ratio that is controlled by valve timing gives you knock control and good combustion. > -----Original Message----- > From: Shannen Durphey [SMTP:shannen at grolen.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 12:55 PM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging > > Todd....!! wrote: > > > Another tidbit that may or may not help is that my 91 Mitsu Eclipse > > Turbo 5-speed had only 120 lbs. of compression pressure on all four > > sylinders.... > > > I believe that cranking compression ratio has more relation to stroke > length and valve timing than compression ratio. Anyone? > Shannen From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 26 20:38:34 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:38:34 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: Question for anyone who knows, WHERE would be the best place to install one of these EGT setups on the engine itself? Where in the exhaust system? I have a v-8 or two one with headers one with just exhaust manifolds whcih I'd like to throw an EGT on! Do I need one per cylinder or is that overkill? I'm sure one per cylinder would be optimum, but what are the other options? Thanks! Todd....!! 1970 Superbee w/ 440, auto, dana 60, 4.10:1, carb'd 1972 Jaguar XJ6 w/ 455 Buick, carb'd 1978 Goldwing GL1000, multi carb'd 1981 Stang, 5.0, AOD, carb'd 1983 T-bird, 5.0, AOD, carb'd 1984 Chev shrt bed truck 5.0, 700R4, carb'd 1991 Mitsu Eclipse, turbo, 5-speed, F.I.'d 1997 Stratus, 2.4 4-cyl, F.I.'d ALL FOR SALE!! HELP! Daniel Houlton wrote: > > d houlton x0710 wrote: > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'd get an EGT, and Oil Temp guage on that, right away. > > > > Geez, I'm beginning to think I've been extremely lucky so far. > > > > I did some checking into an EGT gauge a few months ago. Asked the > > list about it too. The AutoMeter EGT gauge was on the order of $250. > > FYI, I just checked my latest JEG's catalog and they have the EGT > UltraLight gauge listed now. Price is $110 for the gauge *and* sender. > > When I called Summit a few months ago with the part numbers I got > from AutoMeter, they quoted $101 for the meter and another $141 (!) > for the sender. Maybe it was a mistake? Anyways, I think I can > afford getting one now... > > --Dan > houlster at inficad.com > http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From brianhartman at sprintmail.com Wed May 26 21:01:24 1999 From: brianhartman at sprintmail.com (Brian Hartman) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:01:24 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: Well the best place to put EGT Pyrometers is about 1" from the exhaust port. Make sure that you have all your Pyrometer probes angled the same. Weld the bungs so that they are vertical so that none of the tips are closer to the exhaust port than another. To have one on each cylinder isn't over kill but what you can do is have bungs welded on each and plug them with a brass set screw. If you don't already know which cylinders are your lean ones you can find it pretty easily in most cars. This way you have the option to check any cylinder and compare it to a "normal" and if you decide to run one in each, you can. Talk to you soon bro, Brian Hartman 91 GMC Syclone 91 GMC Syclone <371 miles> 73 Cuda 440-6 Todd....!! wrote: > Question for anyone who knows, > > WHERE would be the best place to install one of these EGT setups on the > engine itself? Where in the exhaust system? > > I have a v-8 or two one with headers one with just exhaust manifolds > whcih I'd like to throw an EGT on! > > Do I need one per cylinder or is that overkill? > > I'm sure one per cylinder would be optimum, but what are the other > options? > > Thanks! > > Todd....!! > 1970 Superbee w/ 440, auto, dana 60, 4.10:1, carb'd > 1972 Jaguar XJ6 w/ 455 Buick, carb'd > 1978 Goldwing GL1000, multi carb'd > 1981 Stang, 5.0, AOD, carb'd > 1983 T-bird, 5.0, AOD, carb'd > 1984 Chev shrt bed truck 5.0, 700R4, carb'd > 1991 Mitsu Eclipse, turbo, 5-speed, F.I.'d > 1997 Stratus, 2.4 4-cyl, F.I.'d > > ALL FOR SALE!! HELP! > > Daniel Houlton wrote: > > > > d houlton x0710 wrote: > > > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd get an EGT, and Oil Temp guage on that, right away. > > > > > > Geez, I'm beginning to think I've been extremely lucky so far. > > > > > > I did some checking into an EGT gauge a few months ago. Asked the > > > list about it too. The AutoMeter EGT gauge was on the order of $250. > > > > FYI, I just checked my latest JEG's catalog and they have the EGT > > UltraLight gauge listed now. Price is $110 for the gauge *and* sender. > > > > When I called Summit a few months ago with the part numbers I got > > from AutoMeter, they quoted $101 for the meter and another $141 (!) > > for the sender. Maybe it was a mistake? Anyways, I think I can > > afford getting one now... > > > > --Dan > > houlster at inficad.com > > http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 26 21:06:38 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:06:38 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: All out racing, one per cylinder, 6" or less from valve, during developement. Cast iron, keeps more heat in. Tubular run cooler. Equally distant better. For racing you want max power, and depending on materials can go to where no man travels. For general street use you have to look for best resonable power. Does, 1550dF make enough difference in your testing to be worth the extra wear and tear, for what that HP is. For instantance, if you run a 13.5 at 1575, and 13.4 is done at 1500dF. Is it worth it?. That is your choice. Right now in our Puller, were running a 975dF EGT. Way too cool for max power. But, at this rate the guy that signs the checks is happy. The CID he's running is the smallest in his class, so an out right win against some of these really high rent jobs is unlikely, yet at this temp. we can do a top 5 anytime, usually better, and drive it onto the trailer. Racing can be dun for fun, and not as an exercise in check writting. Which is what he likes. Also, you can find the best fuel/timing to get a given EGT, on some combinations, you can run much different fueling/timing, for similiar EGTs. One usually makes more power. If you run the high temp, might as well make as much power as possible. EGT is for comparison in optimizing your tune-up. There are general guidelines, but optimizing your setup is all that really matters at the end of the day. Bashful | Question for anyone who knows, | WHERE would be the best place to install one of these EGT setups on the | engine itself? Where in the exhaust system? | I have a v-8 or two one with headers one with just exhaust manifolds | whcih I'd like to throw an EGT on! | Do I need one per cylinder or is that overkill? | I'm sure one per cylinder would be optimum, but what are the other | options? | Thanks! Todd....!! From rgregory at chrysalis.org Wed May 26 21:12:08 1999 From: rgregory at chrysalis.org (Ron Gregory) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:12:08 -0400 Subject: Mopar 2.2/2.5 FI computer Message-ID: 749D9B1.4732012C at aci.net> <374AD3BC.6710 at c-com.net> <00c601bea6e4$f81b3700$28167018 at ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> <374B386F.3C91 at c-com.net> <013b01bea700$04460990$28167018 at ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> <374C183E.375F at c-com.net> Subject: Mopar 2.2/2.5 FI computer Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:10:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 I'm a sucker for a turbo vehicle. I recently bought an '85 Chrysler Laser XT turbo. Now, I want to see what makes it tick. Is there a WWW page out there with in-depth ECU info? I removed my ECU last night, and it looks like there are a couple PROMs on the main board that probably contain all the "good stuff" that we're all looking for In case anyone else is keeping track of this stuff, my Logic Module sticker reads: Part No. 5226795 Supplier 7902 Data 02/27/85 15:59:44 2 There are two chips in one corner with stickers on 'em. They look like PROMs. One sticker says "FED" on it, and the other says "5226795" and "5226794" on it. Plus... I have the Haynes maual for the G-body, and the wiring diagrams are pretty good, but there are still some holes left open. Do you know the function of all six wires of the diagnostic connector? How 'bout all the wires that run between the Power Module and the Logic Module? What is the format of the dignostic data stream? I'd like to be able to read it without dropping a ton of money on a scan tool. Please don't think of me as just another "taker"... I'm a "giver", too. I'm the guy that published the Turbo P4 doc, and I helped the author or Promgrammer to get his application working. Plus, I frequently visit CSH, HQ... to take out the trash and clean the toilets. Thanks, ~~~~~~ Ron Gregory '85 Laser XT turbo rgregory at iname.com Garland, TX '91 Syclone '78 Malibu (5.7 Vortec TPI project on hold to get mini Mopar on the road) From rap at aci.net Wed May 26 21:19:14 1999 From: rap at aci.net (..) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:19:14 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: CLsnyder wrote: I've been a Mopar Man for years - owned a 241 cu Hemi Coronet (1953) among others. Interest in old cars has had me owning, over the years, a '28 chevy national, '35 chevy master, 37 hudson terraplane, '53 coronet sierra (hemi), '57 fargo custom express(rarest truck produced by chrysler since the 2nd war), '63 valiant 170, '49 VW beetle, etc. etc. CL; Do you recall the Dodge 241 cu.in. demo engine that was set-up as a 4 overhead cam system back in the mid-to-late '50's? If Chrysler would have made that an actual production engine things would sure have been even more interesting. As I recall (fuzzily) they were going to try to get USAC to allow it as a stock block based installation - or something along those lines. Carl Kiekhaefer (of the Mercury Outboard Motors fame) may have had a hand somewhere in there I suppose as he (or rather his staff of race technicians) developed Chrysler's race hemi's for the Nascar series (Chrysler 300 based cars) in his race shop in Oshkosh, Wi. I recall that they developed heads, cams, manifolds, etc for Chrysler - complete with Chrysler part #'s... rap From spectro at ma.ultranet.com Wed May 26 21:22:19 1999 From: spectro at ma.ultranet.com (SPECTRO COATING CORP.) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:22:19 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:08 PM Subject: RE: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging >You are correct, The mechanical compression ratio can be 10:1 but when you >check it with a gauge the effective compression ratio >pressure will be on par with a 9:1 engine. Mechanical compression gives you >efficiency while effective compression ratio that is controlled by valve >timing gives you knock control and good combustion. Kinda explains the 18:1 compression ratios used in all out racing engines, Doesn't it? From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 26 21:42:39 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:42:39 -0400 Subject: EEC -IV bins back online Message-ID: ALRIGHTY THEN! Does this mean that we can FINALLY see your rides mang? Hope so! Post the links to your hummer and others! COOL! Todd.... ------------- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Sorry it took me so long to get to fixing my firewall... but its done. > > ftp://xephic.dynip.com/eec/ is where the EEC-IV bins are if anyone > still wants them. > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From John.Falb at Unisys.Com Wed May 26 21:48:06 1999 From: John.Falb at Unisys.Com (Falb, John) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:48:06 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Do you happen to have a contact for them? I've done a net search and found 2 or 3 places selling them. All were around $389 - $399 for the module and another $100 - $120 or so for the optional meter if you wanted it. --This is their number (714) 534-6975. John will most likely be the person you talk to. Hopefully pricing will be a bit better. The optional meter is easily made for <20.00. I have the plans if you need them, basically just two O2 meter displays, one for the O2 sensor and one for the output of the module. Let me know what price you get. John Falb From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 26 21:52:31 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:52:31 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: Hey Charles, Are you REALLY NOT gonna use an intercooler? I recommend using one.... ALSO, I happen to have one of the draw thru turbo setups off of an early 80's turbo 6 cyl Monte Carlo... It has a plate for a carburetor such as yours... Picked it up for $75 at the junk yard... Th turbo bushings are shot, but it's all there! I'll need two of these units in order to try and keep up with my big ol 440, but I'll probably just end up runnin dual T04's or the like... You have a GREAT and MOST POWERFUL project on your hands there buddy! ALSO, I noticed that there is a 69 Camaro in the backyard of a house in a multi-faily area of a lil town near my work, passed by it at lunch.... Will ask how much tthey want for it... It has the grass gorwn up around it and all... May be a perfect mule for your project! Whatcha think? LATER! Todd....!! From atc347 at c-com.net Wed May 26 21:54:21 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:54:21 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: Moving the cam timing around(i.e. retarding or advancing the cam(s)) will also change both the static and dynamic compression ratio... LATER, Todd....!! Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com wrote: > > You are correct, The mechanical compression ratio can be 10:1 but when you > check it with a gauge the effective compression ratio > pressure will be on par with a 9:1 engine. Mechanical compression gives you > efficiency while effective compression ratio that is controlled by valve > timing gives you knock control and good combustion. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Shannen Durphey [SMTP:shannen at grolen.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 12:55 PM > > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: Re: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging > > > > Todd....!! wrote: > > > > > Another tidbit that may or may not help is that my 91 Mitsu Eclipse > > > Turbo 5-speed had only 120 lbs. of compression pressure on all four > > > sylinders.... > > > > > I believe that cranking compression ratio has more relation to stroke > > length and valve timing than compression ratio. Anyone? > > Shannen From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 26 21:56:41 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:56:41 -0400 Subject: EEC BIns corrected Message-ID: ftp://xephic.dynip.com/eecbin/ NOT /eec/ Sorry about that. Though the cd junkbox door was open :) From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Wed May 26 22:08:02 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:08:02 -0400 Subject: Web Links Message-ID: Since Todd asked, why not. Hummer stuff and Racing stuff haven't been restored from tape yet. I'm slow. I've also been hoarding GMECM stuff in my ftp area, ftp://xephic.dynip.com as well as some linux stuff. I put the GM stuff together so its easier for me to find what I need, so feel free. The digital electronics tutor is pretty kewl also (last item). In random order: Homebrew Automotive: http://xephic.dynip.com/hb_auto/hb_auto.html Low Fanglers Ball: http://xephic.dynip.com/fanglers2/fanglers.html My Father's Scout Troop: http://xephic.dynip.com/troop108/troop108.html My Dodge Truck: http://xephic.dynip.com/dodge/dodge.html EEC Bins: ftp://xephic.dynip.com/eecbin/ Other Neat Stuff: ftp://xephic.dynip.com/fanglers/ My Children: http://xephic.dynip.com/cats/cats.html My Resume: http://xephic.dynip.com/resume/index.html Mikes Jeep: http://xephic.dynip.com/jeep/jeep.html Java Applet Digital Simulation Thingy http://xephic.dynip.com/degsim/digsim.html The Hummer stuff ain't there yet... have to find the backup tape its on. Its getting there! From shannen at grolen.com Wed May 26 22:32:24 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:32:24 -0400 Subject: Message-ID: Ron Gregory wrote: > '78 Malibu (5.7 Vortec TPI project on hold to > get mini Mopar on the road) When you get back around to the Malibu, drop me a line. Working with Vortech heads and LT4 spec bottom end. Shannen From wsherwin at idirect.com Wed May 26 22:32:28 1999 From: wsherwin at idirect.com (Walter Sherwin) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:32:28 -0400 Subject: Message-ID: >I'm the guy that published the >Turbo P4 doc, and I helped the >author or Promgrammer to get >his application working Greetings. What is the "Turbo P4 doc"? Walt. From ord at aei.ca Wed May 26 22:48:53 1999 From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:48:53 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: What type of sensor is used... is that a thermocouple for those temps? And, is it possible to measure temp further back, like just ahead of the cats? I imagine that the heat loss would be fairly constant. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 7:13 PM Subject: Re: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) > >All out racing, one per cylinder, 6" or less from valve, during >developement. >Cast iron, keeps more heat in. Tubular run cooler. >Equally distant better. >For racing you want max power, and depending on materials can go to where no >man travels. For general street use you have to look for best resonable >power. Does, 1550dF make enough difference in your testing to be worth the >extra wear and tear, for what that HP is. For instantance, if you run a >13.5 at 1575, and 13.4 is done at 1500dF. Is it worth it?. That is your >choice. Right now in our Puller, were running a 975dF EGT. Way too cool >for max power. But, at this rate the guy that signs the checks is happy. >The CID he's running is the smallest in his class, so an out right win >against some of these really high rent jobs is unlikely, yet at this temp. >we can do a top 5 anytime, usually better, and drive it onto the trailer. >Racing can be dun for fun, and not as an exercise in check writting. Which >is what he likes. > Also, you can find the best fuel/timing to get a given EGT, on some >combinations, you can run much different fueling/timing, for similiar EGTs. >One usually makes more power. If you run the high temp, might as well make >as much power as possible. > EGT is for comparison in optimizing your tune-up. There are general >guidelines, but optimizing your setup is all that really matters at the end >of the day. >Bashful > > >| Question for anyone who knows, >| WHERE would be the best place to install one of these EGT setups on the >| engine itself? Where in the exhaust system? >| I have a v-8 or two one with headers one with just exhaust manifolds >| whcih I'd like to throw an EGT on! >| Do I need one per cylinder or is that overkill? >| I'm sure one per cylinder would be optimum, but what are the other >| options? >| Thanks! > Todd....!! > > > From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Wed May 26 23:05:30 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:05:30 -0400 Subject: Message-ID: Check these guys out, they should be able to help you in your quest for info on Turbo Dodge cars. Some of these guys have Turbo fourbangers in the mid 12's for reasonable money :) http://www.sdml.org/ Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Ron Gregory To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 8:00 PM >749D9B1.4732012C at aci.net> <374AD3BC.6710 at c-com.net> <00c601bea6e4$f81b3700$28167018 at ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> <374B386F.3C91 at c-com.net> <013b01bea700$04460990$28167018 at ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> <374C183E.375F at c-com.net> >Subject: Mopar 2.2/2.5 FI computer >Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:10:35 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 > >I'm a sucker for a turbo vehicle. I recently >bought an '85 Chrysler Laser XT turbo. >Now, I want to see what makes it tick. > >Is there a WWW page out there with in-depth >ECU info? I removed my ECU last night, >and it looks like there are a couple PROMs >on the main board that probably contain >all the "good stuff" that we're all looking for > >In case anyone else is keeping track of >this stuff, my Logic Module sticker reads: > >Part No. 5226795 Supplier 7902 >Data 02/27/85 15:59:44 2 > >There are two chips in one corner with >stickers on 'em. They look like PROMs. >One sticker says "FED" on it, and >the other says "5226795" and >"5226794" on it. > >Plus... >I have the Haynes maual for the G-body, and >the wiring diagrams are pretty good, but >there are still some holes left open. >Do you know the function of all six wires >of the diagnostic connector? How 'bout >all the wires that run between the Power >Module and the Logic Module? > >What is the format of the dignostic >data stream? I'd like to be able to >read it without dropping a ton of >money on a scan tool. > >Please don't think of me as just >another "taker"... >I'm a "giver", too. > >I'm the guy that published the >Turbo P4 doc, and I helped the >author or Promgrammer to get >his application working. Plus, I >frequently visit CSH, HQ... to >take out the trash and clean >the toilets. > >Thanks, >~~~~~~ >Ron Gregory '85 Laser XT turbo >rgregory at iname.com Garland, TX >'91 Syclone >'78 Malibu (5.7 Vortec TPI project on hold to > get mini Mopar on the road) > > From twsharpe at mtco.com Wed May 26 23:08:14 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:08:14 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: Same - I added an old reverser with gear down. Down then up without stopping. do it before you boil the block. TomS David wrote: > Ted, > > I use a tap in a battery drill after I blow it out with air. I use a very > low speed. Speeds things up greatly. > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stowe, Ted-SEA > To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 5:10 PM > Subject: v8 block thread cleaning > > | > |howdy. > | > |what do you guys use to clean up the block head bolt holes ? > |it would be criminal to torque my shiny heads to all that crud down there, > |which I think exits to the water jacket and or the oil pan ? especially > with > |the arp thread sealer/lube on them. > | > |I see that snap on has a thread chaser tool set, rtd-42, however I can't > |seem to find a local snap on guy to buy it from. > | > |compressed air would blow that junk down into my engine beyond any doubt. > | > |so if you were doing a valve job, what do you use ? > | > |thanks, Ted Stowe > | From twsharpe at mtco.com Wed May 26 23:09:37 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:09:37 -0400 Subject: butterfly valves Message-ID: how about posting them??? David Piper wrote: > Provide FAX no and I will send Cv vs angle > > TurboDave > > > Does anyone have a typical chart of flow vs. valve angle for round > >butterfly valves? > TurboDave (aka DynoDave) > > David A Piper, owner > Performance Chassis Dyno > 239 Beverly Road > Greenville, SC 29609 > 864-322-2737 From jtvol at dcs-chico.com Wed May 26 23:10:30 1999 From: jtvol at dcs-chico.com (James Thomas) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:10:30 -0400 Subject: Bosch D-Jetronic Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEA792.36B2BDA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the response. I have been in the business for 34 years and = am thoroughly familiar with all the Bosch systems. Unfortunately I have = never been able to get a schematic of the D-Jet control unit and this is = what I am looking for. The ITB rules do not allow us to substitute = alternate injection systems but your suggestion of a digital control = unit is interesting. What information do you have regarding = retrofitting a digital unit to the K-Jet system? James ----- Original Message -----=20 From: James Montebello=20 To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 10:20 AM Subject: RE: Bosch D-Jetronic You might consult with VW and Porsche types. D-Jet was used = extensively in the early '70s on a number of VW models, and the Porsche 914. There are some 914 web = sites that offer detailed=20 info on D-Jet, at least as used by the Germans. =20 Charles Pobst's book on Bosch injection systems also covers D-Jet in = detail.=20 =20 My take on this is that you'd be better off replacing the OEM analog = ECU with a digital version that you could remap at will.=20 =20 james montebello -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu = [mailto:owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of James Thomas Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 6:05 PM To: DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Bosch D-Jetronic Here is a good one for you guys. I own a Volvo Specialty Service in = California. I am 50 years old and an old SCCA racer (used to race in = E-Production in a '58 Porsche Speedster in the 1970's). I am completing = a new project for SCCA racing, a 1971 Volvo 142 to compete in ITB. = Pretty much got all the tricks down. This car is brand new from the = ground up (every nut, bolt and molecule). Got all the latest trick = ideas from my other Volvo ITB racers that I have been helping for the = last few years. I am planning this one to be a world beater ( if I can = still drive ). Here is the question...I am having a problem finding a = schematic of the D-Jetronic control unit (MPC) so I can adjust the fuel = mixture in different ranges. I don't want to mess with the head temp = sensor resistance as it seems to mess up the injection timing, got to = work on the inside. Haven't gotten much from Bosch. Need some = engineering brains who might have some thoughts on modifying the innards = of this unit. Any thoughts out there? James Thomas James Thomas Independent Volvo Service ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEA792.36B2BDA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the response.  I have = been in=20 the business for 34 years and am thoroughly familiar with all the Bosch=20 systems.  Unfortunately I have never been able to get a schematic = of the=20 D-Jet control unit and this is what I am looking for.  The ITB = rules do not=20 allow us to substitute alternate injection systems but your suggestion = of a=20 digital control unit is interesting.  What information do you have=20 regarding retrofitting a digital unit to the K-Jet system?
 
James
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 James=20 Montebello
To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.e= du=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 = 10:20=20 AM
Subject: RE: Bosch = D-Jetronic

 
You=20 might consult with VW and Porsche types.  D-Jet was used = extensively in=20 the early '70s on
a number of VW models, and the Porsche = 914.  There are=20 some 914 web sites that offer detailed
info on D-Jet, at least as used by the=20 Germans.
 
Charles Pobst's book on Bosch injection systems also covers = D-Jet in=20 detail.
 
My=20 take on this is that you'd be better off replacing the OEM analog ECU = with a=20 digital version that
you=20 could remap at will.
 
james montebello
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu=20 [mailto:owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of = James=20 Thomas
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 6:05 PM
To:=20 DIY_EFI at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Bosch=20 D-Jetronic

Here is a good one for you = guys.  I own=20 a Volvo Specialty Service in California.  I am 50 years old and = an old=20 SCCA racer (used to race in E-Production in a '58 Porsche Speedster = in the=20 1970's).  I am completing a new project for SCCA racing, a 1971 = Volvo=20 142 to compete in ITB.  Pretty much got all the tricks = down.  This=20 car is brand new from the ground up (every nut, bolt and = molecule). =20 Got all the latest trick ideas from my other Volvo ITB racers = that I=20 have been helping for the last few years.  I am planning this = one to be=20 a world beater ( if I can still drive ).  Here is the = question...I am=20 having a problem finding a schematic of the D-Jetronic control = unit=20 (MPC) so I can adjust the fuel mixture in different = ranges.  I=20 don't want to mess with the head temp sensor resistance as it = seems to=20 mess up the injection timing, got to work on the inside. Haven't = gotten much=20 from Bosch.  Need some engineering brains who might have some = thoughts=20 on modifying the innards of this unit.
Any thoughts out = there?
James Thomas
James Thomas Independent Volvo=20 Service
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEA792.36B2BDA0-- From Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com Wed May 26 23:31:36 1999 From: Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com (Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:31:36 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: I like the story about the guys running at the salt flats with their Hemi powered creation, it seems they blew the engine so they went back to the hotel pulled the Hemi out of the tow car ,put the hot cam and carbs off of the blown engine,raced it , set a record, and then put the Hemi back in the tow car and drove home. You gotta love it. > -----Original Message----- > From: .. [SMTP:rap at aci.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:16 PM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > CLsnyder wrote: > I've been a Mopar Man for years - owned a 241 cu Hemi Coronet (1953) among > others. Interest in old cars has had me owning, over the years, a '28 > chevy > national, '35 chevy master, 37 hudson terraplane, '53 coronet sierra > (hemi), '57 > fargo custom express(rarest truck produced by chrysler since the 2nd war), > '63 > valiant 170, '49 VW beetle, etc. etc. > > CL; > Do you recall the Dodge 241 cu.in. demo engine that was set-up as a 4 > overhead > cam system back in the mid-to-late '50's? If Chrysler would have made that > an > actual production engine things would sure have been even more > interesting. As I > recall (fuzzily) they were going to try to get USAC to allow it as a stock > block > based installation - or something along those lines. Carl Kiekhaefer (of > the > Mercury Outboard Motors fame) may have had a hand somewhere in there I > suppose > as he (or rather his staff of race technicians) developed Chrysler's race > hemi's > for the Nascar series (Chrysler 300 based cars) in his race shop in > Oshkosh, Wi. > I recall that they developed heads, cams, manifolds, etc for Chrysler - > complete > with Chrysler part #'s... > rap From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Wed May 26 23:42:21 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:42:21 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: OOooohh, "C A M A R O" :) Yeah sounds pretty Shweet! I intend on running this single turbo system on an 8:1 350 Chevy with no intercooler to begin with and very limited boost. As the money becomes available the intercooler will be purchased (And the Boost will go up!). If I come up with the money for the Gale Banks manifolds I'll pick them up too for some "Special" project in the future :) Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Todd....!! To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 8:34 PM Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? >Hey Charles, > >Are you REALLY NOT gonna use an intercooler? > >I recommend using one.... > >ALSO, I happen to have one of the draw thru turbo setups off of an early >80's turbo 6 cyl Monte Carlo... > >It has a plate for a carburetor such as yours... > >Picked it up for $75 at the junk yard... > >Th turbo bushings are shot, but it's all there! > >I'll need two of these units in order to try and keep up with my big ol >440, but I'll probably just end up runnin dual T04's or the like... > >You have a GREAT and MOST POWERFUL project on your hands there buddy! > >ALSO, I noticed that there is a 69 Camaro in the backyard of a house in >a multi-faily area of a lil town near my work, passed by it at lunch.... > >Will ask how much tthey want for it... It has the grass gorwn up around >it and all... > >May be a perfect mule for your project! Whatcha think? > >LATER! > >Todd....!! > > > From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Wed May 26 23:43:40 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:43:40 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: Hey Todd, what state are you in? I live in Maryland and I've yet to find any people around here interested in Turbocharged V8's :) Charles Brooks From nacelp at bright.net Wed May 26 23:51:08 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:51:08 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: I won't repeat the stories about when Hertz rented GT 350s. I don't think many wound up with the right engine in them. Grumpy | I like the story about the guys running at the salt flats with their Hemi | powered creation, it seems they blew the engine so they went back to the | hotel pulled the Hemi out of the tow car ,put the hot cam and carbs off of | the blown engine,raced it , set a record, and then put the Hemi back in the | tow car and drove home. You gotta love it. | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: .. [SMTP:rap at aci.net] | > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:16 PM | > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | > Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi | > | > CLsnyder wrote: | > I've been a Mopar Man for years - owned a 241 cu Hemi Coronet (1953) among | > others. Interest in old cars has had me owning, over the years, a '28 | > chevy | > national, '35 chevy master, 37 hudson terraplane, '53 coronet sierra | > (hemi), '57 | > fargo custom express(rarest truck produced by chrysler since the 2nd war), | > '63 | > valiant 170, '49 VW beetle, etc. etc. | > | > CL; | > Do you recall the Dodge 241 cu.in. demo engine that was set-up as a 4 | > overhead | > cam system back in the mid-to-late '50's? If Chrysler would have made that | > an | > actual production engine things would sure have been even more | > interesting. As I | > recall (fuzzily) they were going to try to get USAC to allow it as a stock | > block | > based installation - or something along those lines. Carl Kiekhaefer (of | > the | > Mercury Outboard Motors fame) may have had a hand somewhere in there I | > suppose | > as he (or rather his staff of race technicians) developed Chrysler's race | > hemi's | > for the Nascar series (Chrysler 300 based cars) in his race shop in | > Oshkosh, Wi. | > I recall that they developed heads, cams, manifolds, etc for Chrysler - | > complete | > with Chrysler part #'s... | > rap | From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Wed May 26 23:52:37 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:52:37 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: On Wed, 26 May 1999 Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com wrote: > I like the story about the guys running at the salt flats with their Hemi > powered creation, it seems they blew the engine so they went back to the > hotel pulled the Hemi out of the tow car ,put the hot cam and carbs off of > the blown engine,raced it , set a record, and then put the Hemi back in the > tow car and drove home. You gotta love it. > Sounds like the old tale about the Surfers, a SoCal AA fueler team. At a Nationals meet, they ran out of parts before the final run, so it was made using 5 alum rods and forged blower pistons, 2 stock rods with cast hicomp pistons and a hose clamp over the missing rods oil hole on the crank. They won TFE. Must be true, I saw it in Hot Rod mag... From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 27 00:00:58 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:00:58 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: | What type of sensor is used... is that a thermocouple for those temps? Yes, thermocouple. | And, is it possible to measure temp further back, like just ahead of the | cats? I imagine that the heat loss would be fairly constant. Ambient air temp starts to come into play. For the home guy, your looking for trends that are repeatable. Meaning days later making notebook entries that still are relative.. Anything is better than nothing!!. If you only run one, and the primaries are 36" so be it. You'll at least have some guage about where you're at. So don't use the 1500dF as a tune to or as a safe number. Sneezy | -----Original Message----- | From: Bruce Plecan | To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 7:13 PM | Subject: Re: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) | | | > | >All out racing, one per cylinder, 6" or less from valve, during | >developement. | >Cast iron, keeps more heat in. Tubular run cooler. | >Equally distant better. | >For racing you want max power, and depending on materials can go to where | no | >man travels. For general street use you have to look for best resonable | >power. Does, 1550dF make enough difference in your testing to be worth the | >extra wear and tear, for what that HP is. For instantance, if you run a | >13.5 at 1575, and 13.4 is done at 1500dF. Is it worth it?. That is your | >choice. Right now in our Puller, were running a 975dF EGT. Way too cool | >for max power. But, at this rate the guy that signs the checks is happy. | >The CID he's running is the smallest in his class, so an out right win | >against some of these really high rent jobs is unlikely, yet at this temp. | >we can do a top 5 anytime, usually better, and drive it onto the trailer. | >Racing can be dun for fun, and not as an exercise in check writting. | Which | >is what he likes. | > Also, you can find the best fuel/timing to get a given EGT, on some | >combinations, you can run much different fueling/timing, for similiar | EGTs. | >One usually makes more power. If you run the high temp, might as well make | >as much power as possible. | > EGT is for comparison in optimizing your tune-up. There are general | >guidelines, but optimizing your setup is all that really matters at the end | >of the day. | >Bashful | > | > | >| Question for anyone who knows, | >| WHERE would be the best place to install one of these EGT setups on the | >| engine itself? Where in the exhaust system? | >| I have a v-8 or two one with headers one with just exhaust manifolds | >| whcih I'd like to throw an EGT on! | >| Do I need one per cylinder or is that overkill? | >| I'm sure one per cylinder would be optimum, but what are the other | >| options? | >| Thanks! | > Todd....!! | > | > | > | From RRauscher at nni.com Thu May 27 00:13:49 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:13:49 -0400 Subject: '747 Ignition Write-up Message-ID: It's Done! I have the files on 'incoming'. Look for: SPK747.ECU ecu file for promedit (worth getting) SPK747.TXT the write-up! SPK747AL.BIN the eprom image that I'm using Get'em while their hot, it's a good read... Thanks for your patience, BobR. Hi-Ho, Hi-Ho, it's off to school I go. -- From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Thu May 27 00:26:40 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:26:40 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: > Hey Todd, what state are you in? I live in Maryland and I've yet to find any > people around here interested in Turbocharged V8's :) If you can stand the cat hair, come to Connecticut :) From charlesmorris at erols.com Thu May 27 00:36:31 1999 From: charlesmorris at erols.com (Charles) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 20:36:31 -0400 Subject: EGT gauges Message-ID: On Wed, 26 May 1999 13:29:22 -0400, you wrote: >I did some checking into an EGT gauge a few months ago. Asked the >list about it too. The AutoMeter EGT gauge was on the order of $250 I bought the gauge and interface box for $100+ and then discovered they wanted that much and more again for the thermocouple! Bought a K-type Inconel thermocouple from Omega Instruments for $47. Unfortunately they only last about 2-3 months of daily driving (1/16" diameter for quick gauge response). Think I'll try a 1/8" unit next, a little slower but should be more durable. You can't keep a BMW running 15 psi boost wide-open for very long on most of the roads I know... Runs about 1200 F at cruise (no boost), mounted in the log manifold just above the inlet to the turbo. About 1600 F with full boost, and 1650+ F with 40hp nitrous also on. (May not be jetted rich enough). >I did get some leads on some cheaper alternatives, some targeted >towards aviation, but I haven't followed through with them yet. This is the first time I've seen "cheaper" and "aviation" in the same sentence! ;) -Charles '81 745i From Sealand at clarityconnect.com Thu May 27 01:20:01 1999 From: Sealand at clarityconnect.com (Scot Sealander) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 21:20:01 -0400 Subject: Message-ID: Ron Gregory wrote: > I'm a sucker for a turbo vehicle. I recently bought an '85 Chrysler Laser XT turbo. I recently bought the ECM out of an '85 Turbo Lancer and a N/A '90 Dodge Daytona. Much cheaper than the whole car..... ;-) > In case anyone else is keeping track of this stuff, my Logic Module sticker reads: > > Part No. 5226795 Supplier 7902 > Data 02/27/85 15:59:44 2 Mine says:Part number 5226263 Supplier 7902 Date 01/31/85 13:46:16 4 > There are two chips in one corner with stickers on 'em. They look like PROMs. > One sticker says "FED" on it, and the other says "5226795" and "5226794" on it. They are 2764 PROMs (8kx8). This ECM has one that says "FED" on one, and "5226263" and "5226611" on the other. One number is the same as the ECM PN. I got both PROMs out w/o damaging the board. The PROMs are read and disassembled, and a schematic is pretty well laid out for the hardware. You will NOT be able to figure out the code without a schematic for the hardware. Pretty clever those mopar guys...... The code is pretty well worked out. They do not use interpolated tables like GM, so it is much more difficult to modify. That is, you really have to understand the code to modify this stuff. (No searching for tables!) The "tables" (if you want to call them that), are really variables to plug into a linear equation..... > Do you know the function of all six wires of the diagnostic connector? Pink is serial comm outLt Green is serial comm in Dk Blue-yellow is Auto shutdown (No idea what that means...) Lt Blue-Red is Ground Drk Blue is power Black is ground > How 'bout all the wires that run between the Power > Module and the Logic Module? Later... > What is the format of the dignostic data stream? I'd like to be able to > read it without dropping a ton of money on a scan tool. No idea yet. Appears to be wired for full duplex though. Still working on it. > I'm the guy that published the Turbo P4 doc, and I helped the > author or Promgrammer to get his application working. Plus, I > frequently visit CSH, HQ... to take out the trash and clean > the toilets. Well, Mopar seems to keep a much tighter lid on it's cal data. Might be much harder to get leaked cal data to publish...... ;-) Scot Sealander Sealand at clarityconnect.com From dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us Thu May 27 01:52:49 1999 From: dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 21:52:49 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: -> > Couldn't injecting gasoline still work if the injection system was -> calibrated -> > for gasoline? i.e. maybe inject it at a slower rate? > Sounds reasonable, but the properties of gasoline may still be too > "explosive" to be done that way. The Bosch mechanical direct injection used by Mercedes was a slightly modified Diesel apparatus. It used engine oil to lubricate the pump, as gasoline didn't have the lubricity of Diesel fuel, and used a vacuum diaphragm on the pump to adjust for load. The Ford flathead I'm doing is using a Diesel pump with oil metered into the fuel flow to lubricate the pump, and the throttle butterfly will have electronic control as soon as I get around to building that part. The foot throttle will control fuel, the butterfly will be controlled by stepper motor. Bob Harris made a strong case for "air follows fuel" a few months ago, enough to persuade me. ==dave.williams at chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From ECMnut at aol.com Thu May 27 01:59:10 1999 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 21:59:10 -0400 Subject: Message-ID: Hi Turbo Ron, Scott... Might as well get these applications into the archives.. > > I'm a sucker for a turbo vehicle. I recently bought an '85 Chrysler Laser > XT turbo. > <> > I recently bought the ECM out of an '85 Turbo Lancer and a N/A '90 Dodge > Daytona. > > In case anyone else is keeping track of this stuff, my Logic Module > sticker reads: > > > > Part No. 5226795 Supplier 7902 > > Data 02/27/85 15:59:44 2 Application for above shows: 1985 Turbo, Manual Trans: Lancer, Laser, Lebaron, Omni. Xrefs to: 5226266, 5226273, 5226614, 5226618, 5226794, 5227063, 5227243 Just in case you explode it in a sick, twisted experiment... 8-) > Mine says:Part number 5226263 Supplier 7902 > Date 01/31/85 13:46:16 4 Hmm. got too much paper round here that one is: AUTO trans, Turbo 2.2 in:(1985) Caravell, Daytona, Laser Lancer, LeBaron x-refs with just 5226611 and 5227245 > > Plus, I > > frequently visit CSH, HQ... to take out the trash and clean > > the toilets. That was YOU? I was goin through the CSH,HQ dumpster, by candle light, and someone tossed a in hefty bag full of beer bottles. That was all I remembered till I woke up at sunrise, with a cat and these dwarfs looking at me. Mike V. From garfield at cyberlynk.com Thu May 27 02:07:44 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:07:44 -0400 Subject: 7730 and dis Message-ID: On Wed, 26 May 1999 10:07:20 -0400 (EDT), Pat Ford wrote: > I have a dis ( distiruterless ign sys) off a cavalier and want to know >how to make the sensor wheel. what I had in mind was a 6" dia 3/8 steel plate >with 6 slots @ 60 degrees and an extra one @ 10 tdc. how large should the slots >be? No matter how large the wheel, the slots should be about the same width as the metal tip on the Mag sensors, which IIRC correctly are around 1/4" (the metal tip, that is). That's also the size of the slots in the cast-in metal wheel that's part of the GM engine cranks. We use this system on our eXperimental aircraft engines as part of our KIGN system, and we find that often the built-in linear advance curve in the DIS module itself is perfectly adequate. If you make the wheel as a flat steel plate, you might wanna use a configuration John Carroll perfected, and passed along to us, which I've put up on the FTP site, named: PlanarWheel.jpg which shows the sizing, and some slit/split openings that accentuate the flux reversals. Shown next to the timing wheel in roughly the correct mounting position/orientation, is a stock GM mag crank pickup. BE precise when you machine those semi-holesNslots, cuz even tho there's a PPL in the module to lock up the slot jitter, the module does NOT like a wheel that's made sloppy. Best to cut the wheel slots with a rotary table on a milling machine. Finally, if you wanna build an ultra-reliable racing IGN system with dual DIS pickups/coils and waste-fire coil joiners (no single point-of-failure can kill the IGN system), AND/OR add some fancy programmable advance curves, those schemes will be available as licenseable PLANS from AirSIG in the not-too-distant future. Just gotta get EGOR and KEFI out the door, and KIGN will be next in line. Gar From EFISYSTEMS at aol.com Thu May 27 02:27:27 1999 From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com (EFISYSTEMS at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:27:27 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck problem solved Message-ID: HI Everyone, I first want to thank everyone that took the time to help diagnose this thing. What struck me was someone who said to check the basics.......Sometimes people like us get so involved in finding an efi problem that we do forget the basics......my biggest problem was I did not talk to the customer long enough,,,,,,to find out the problem started almost a year ago but just recently became severe.......well I did find the root of the problem during my initial scan.....when key on was applied with engine not running and fuel pressure came up...fuel was blowing by one of the TB injectors and after disassembly discovered bad o-ring.....replaced and no more fuel leak.....still engine would run ok for a few seconds but would start running rich......had already done a compression test but turned out ok........I won't bore you guys with the details but I had to start thinking back what I would do if this had a carburetor on it,,,,and since I had verified fuel and spark it must be mechanical......so looked back over my compression chart and noticed #3 was the lowest cylinder so I checked it again and now was even lower, so checked the one next to it to verify it wasn't lower due to temp,,,,,no it was the same so re-checked the #3 in case I just hadn't cranked it enough times......guess what now it's 0 pressure......now can assume broken valve spring or sticking valve.....remove valve cover and check....no broken valve spring but intake valve is stuck down.....remove rockers and tap top of valve with hammer and... "pling"... valve comes up......solution, leaking injector, over a period of a year, has built up excessive carbon on top of intake valves and is now causing them to stick open randomly.......so anyway,,,those that want can sit back and point at the screen and laugh.....I am.......it was actually a good road trip looking back on it......cya later -Carl Summers From synchris at ricochet.net Thu May 27 02:33:15 1999 From: synchris at ricochet.net (Chris Conlon) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:33:15 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: At 07:43 PM 5/26/99 -0400, C. Brooks wrote: >Hey Todd, what state are you in? I live in Maryland and I've yet to find any >people around here interested in Turbocharged V8's :) Replying to all in case others might use this info. Maybe try: Maryland Performance Center 301-258-8883 8029 Cessna Ave Gaithersburg, MD Disclaimer: I only ever go there to get bottles filled, so I have no idea how good they are. They didn't shoot me for driving up in an MR2, though, which says something I guess. Looked like they had a couple of service bays. Excessive Motorsport Near Manassas, VA Naturally I threw their card out just the other day. Supposedly specializing in Fords and blowers. Never been there. Speedcraft Near College Park, MD Small place, bunch of bolt-ons, I only went in to get Red Line stuff. Dunno if they have a shop or not. HTH, Chris C. From dapiper at one.net Thu May 27 02:35:35 1999 From: dapiper at one.net (David Piper) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:35:35 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: Keep Me Posted. What is CID? Qty Cyl? Bore size? Alum Head? RPM at max Pwr? All and more contribute, but found 8:1 lowest practical. May need to mix race fuel 30% for over 12 psi tho. At 02:21 PM 5/26/99 +0800, you wrote: > > >Thanks Dave, will do some measurements tonight and see if I can bring it back >that far without any major machine work. > >Dan dzorde at erggroup.com > > > > >Run 8:1 > > > >TurboDave > > > > > TurboDave From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 27 02:44:18 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:44:18 -0400 Subject: 7730 and dis Message-ID: Would you share the part no., or application of that sensor?. Does anyone know which, of that sytle sensor is the most compact?. Thanks Sleepy | No matter how large the wheel, the slots should be about the same width as the | metal tip on the Mag sensors, which IIRC correctly are around 1/4" (the metal | tip, that is). That's also the size of the slots in the cast-in metal wheel | that's part of the GM engine cranks. | We use this system on our eXperimental aircraft engines as part of our KIGN | system, and we find that often the built-in linear advance curve in the DIS | module itself is perfectly adequate. If you make the wheel as a flat steel | plate, you might wanna use a configuration John Carroll perfected, and passed | along to us, which I've put up on the FTP site, named: | PlanarWheel.jpg | which shows the sizing, and some slit/split openings that accentuate the flux | reversals. Shown next to the timing wheel in roughly the correct mounting | position/orientation, is a stock GM mag crank pickup. | | BE precise when you machine those semi-holesNslots, cuz even tho there's a PPL | in the module to lock up the slot jitter, the module does NOT like a wheel | that's made sloppy. Best to cut the wheel slots with a rotary table on a milling | machine. | | Finally, if you wanna build an ultra-reliable racing IGN system with dual DIS | pickups/coils and waste-fire coil joiners (no single point-of-failure can kill | the IGN system), AND/OR add some fancy programmable advance curves, those | schemes will be available as licenseable PLANS from AirSIG in the | not-too-distant future. Just gotta get EGOR and KEFI out the door, and KIGN will | be next in line. | | Gar | From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 27 03:00:26 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:00:26 -0400 Subject: 1228253 Message-ID: Is anyone running a 88-90 vehicle with a 1228253 in it??. I'm looking for a .gdf, file to see what diacom shows, for that.. Has anyone played with one?. And bins, anything.. Bruce From dapiper at one.net Thu May 27 03:05:11 1999 From: dapiper at one.net (David Piper) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:05:11 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: >Although the MSD also has the advantage of a much hotter spark and >is something I want to upgrade eventually anyways I'm not sure how much >I want to retard ignition across the board based only on boost level. I use 35 deg total w/ my MSD TTM retard 0.35 to 0.45 deg/psi boost. Motor is Nissan L28 custom turbo w/ alum heads, turbo cam, EFI, Intercooling and 8:1 CR. Need 30% race fuel above 12 psi steady state. TurboDave From rap at aci.net Thu May 27 03:13:09 1999 From: rap at aci.net (..) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:13:09 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Usually those stories were just that - stories. You had to use modified heads to make them run at decent rpms because of the long "flexible" rockers - but they could have swapped heads and made it work unless they were running an alky class in which case you needed a lot higher compression then the stockers had. Don't get me wrong, I loved the old beasts in their time (even had a Desoto hardtop with a Chrysler 300 engine swapped inside) but you had to do alot of work to make them run well.... a cam and carbs wouldn't do it by themselves... As time passes, I suspect the stories will get better. Actually, I could even tell you a true story about a '56 Chrysler 300 that had a 45 cu.in. outboard engine mounted in the trunk that drove a roots blower with the air piped to the front into a sealed carb box - commissioned by an eccentric (and very wealthy old guy). rap Don.F.Broadus at ucm.com wrote: > I like the story about the guys running at the salt flats with their Hemi > powered creation, it seems they blew the engine so they went back to the > hotel pulled the Hemi out of the tow car ,put the hot cam and carbs off of > the blown engine,raced it , set a record, and then put the Hemi back in the > tow car and drove home. You gotta love it. From clendenc at execpc.com Thu May 27 03:23:54 1999 From: clendenc at execpc.com (Chad Clendening) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:23:54 -0400 Subject: [ now] MOPAR Message-ID: Who all is playing with these MOPAR logic modules? It may be possible to eliminate alot of duplication in decoding this stuff. Chad Scot Sealander wrote: > Ron Gregory wrote: > > > They are 2764 PROMs (8kx8). This ECM has one that says "FED" on one, and "5226263" and "5226611" on the other. One number is the same as the ECM PN. > Yep, the FED one has the CAL at the beginning. The other dosn't even need to be pulled. From the few I have looked at, the lower chip ( Z22) is the same for all the 85's, even for the 4452118 MP version.It isn't too difficult to build a device to suck the program out of the board ( both chips) without desoldering ANYTHING. Take a muxed HC11, connect it properly, short the proper wires, ... run a monitor - very simple, and less than 2 minutes per board. > The code is pretty well worked out. They do not use interpolated tables like GM, > so it is much more difficult to modify. That is, you really have to understand the > code to modify this stuff. (No searching for tables!) The "tables" (if you want to call > them that), are really variables to plug into a linear equation..... > > Do you know the function of all six wires of the diagnostic connector? > Pink is serial comm outLt Green is serial comm in > Dk Blue-yellow is Auto shutdown (No idea what that means...) > Lt Blue-Red is Ground > Drk Blue is power > Black is ground > > > How 'bout all the wires that run between the Power > > Module and the Logic Module? > > Later... > > > What is the format of the dignostic data stream? I'd like to be able to > > read it without dropping a ton of money on a scan tool.No idea yet. Appears to be wired for full duplex though. Still working on it. It CAN do bidirectional BUT it isn't interrupt driven, it just looks at the Rx line occasionally. I havn't played with this MUCH but you can have it send the error codes by echoing the right byte at startup. It also should send the data at the address you send it. - send it 0x58 while running and it will send you the value there, the error code reset counter. This can ONLY be a 8 bit address. The ram is located from 0x40 to 0xff on these. it talks at 976 baud initially and can be kicked up to 7812 by sending the right code ( 0x12) while in 976 baud mode.. > > I'm the guy that published the Turbo P4 doc, and I helped the > > author or Promgrammer to get his application working. Plus, I > > frequently visit CSH, HQ... to take out the trash and clean > > the toilets. > > Well, Mopar seems to keep a much tighter lid on it's cal data. > Might be much harder to get leaked cal data to publish...... ;-) > > From gderian at oh.verio.com Thu May 27 03:25:29 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:25:29 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: I don't see where stroke length has any effect but intake valve closing sure does. Gary Derian > > Another tidbit that may or may not help is that my 91 Mitsu Eclipse > > Turbo 5-speed had only 120 lbs. of compression pressure on all four > > sylinders.... > > > I believe that cranking compression ratio has more relation to stroke > length and valve timing than compression ratio. Anyone? > Shannen From gderian at oh.verio.com Thu May 27 03:25:30 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:25:30 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: No. The fuel characteristics of gasoline are all wrong for compression ignition. Gary Derian > > drove off... about a block later, heard a large BOOM and he was at the side > > of the road with lots of smoke... Opened the hood and it appeared to have > > sheared the head bolts... head was about 1/4" above the block!) > > > Yeah, but isn't that because the injection system is tuned for diesel? > Couldn't injecting gasoline still work if the injection system was calibrated > for gasoline? i.e. maybe inject it at a slower rate? From gderian at oh.verio.com Thu May 27 03:25:34 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:25:34 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: > > What is the exhaust pressure while you are cruising at 5 psi > > boost, both before and after the turbo? > > I have no idea. I haven't seen pressure gauges for exhaust. Can you > just use standard boost gauges with a good bit of metal tubing (like > maybe several feet) tapped to the manifold and down pipe to allow the > gas to cool before reaching the gauges? Yes. Any old pressure gauge will do. An old Vacuum/fuel pressure gauge or something. There is no flow of exhaust in the connecting tube. Only 1/2 to 1 foot is enough metal tubing. Gary Derian From nwester at eidnet.org Thu May 27 04:07:29 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:07:29 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: Guess if identical loads and clearances exist it'll always pan out the same. Definitely more consistent with EFI controls in place -----Original Message----- From: Steve To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 17, 1999 12:35 AM Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >When you test the same engine combination over and over you find that the >oil temp is within a few degrees for that given combination. If it is >different and the combination is the same then something is wrong or there >was a change. I find this very easy to believe as I have witnessed hundreds >of dyno runs over the years. > >My turbo V6 I just built with coatings takes twice as long to warm up now >that it is coated. Also I have seen a 200 degree F increase in EGT at low >speed. I haven't done full load testing yet so I can't report on that yet. > >Steve >-----Original Message----- >From: Programmer >To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 8:24 PM >Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings > > >>Greg, >> >>The only problem with testing like that is the motor had to be torn down to >>perform the experiment. I'd put little faith in a 15 degree change when a >>complete teardown would have had to be done to perform the work. >> >>Lyndon IP TECH >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Greg Hermann >>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >>Date: Saturday, May 15, 1999 8:11 AM >>Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >> >> >>>>Has anyone run any "independent" testing on these barrier coatings for >>what >>>>they actually have seen as an improvement pre+post coating?. >>>> Has any one run any endurance tests?. >>>>Do I need mention that this might need a complete recal to get right. >>>>Bruce >>> >>>A fellow I spoke with at HPC told me that they ran a dyno test of a fairly >>>typical hipo 350 CID Chebby first with no coatings, then with coating only >>>on the piston crowns. Said that--with no other changes, the steady state >>>oil temperature at sustained full load dropped 15 degrees F. >>> >>>Greg >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From nwester at eidnet.org Thu May 27 04:22:01 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:22:01 -0400 Subject: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings Message-ID: Fred, Thanks for the support--I thought this stuff was a re-hash on a lot of old ideas gone south. I guess it all works out to what you "think" is working for you. Lyndon -----Original Message----- From: FHPREMACH at aol.com To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 12:40 AM Subject: Re: BMFC, Tiiming, and Coatings >In a message dated 5/16/99 9:12:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >nwester at eidnet.org writes: > ><< I have no faith in some kind of coating--just like I have no faith in >Teflon > additives...instead of coating the undersides of pistons, or coating the > interior of an engine--polishing the interiors smooth would have a greater > effect of oil return, and less oil "dwell". As far as piston ring > manufacturers go--gapless piston rings and improper end gaps will always > yield differing results. You can make anything look good on a > dyno--depending on operator. > > Lyndon IPTECH > -----Original Message----- >> >Hi, > I just wanted to add a bit to this idea. most research has noted that the >"Leave it cast and paint it black" ideas of long ago still hold true. Oil is >a strange beast at times. you want to cool it and drain it to the sump, but >as it cools, it slows down the drainback. Rough surfaces increase the surface >area and increase cooling. As for teflon, the jury is still out on the >longterm results. Polishing the interior of motors has come in and out of >use. and at one time, polishing the entire crankcase, crank, rod, and filling >the balance holes in two strokes was supposed to lead to increased >horsepower, but like stuffer plates, it seems to have lost favor. Coatings >seem to come in and out of fashion. I do believe in coatings for certain >areas, but am still looking into a couple of unorthodox ones. I will give >results as they ocur. >BTW, has anyone tried the carbide cylinder bore treatment that was in the >threads a few months ago? I wondered about that with a Hard Anodized piston >skirt might affect wear. >Fred > From dynastydan at worldnet.att.net Thu May 27 04:26:42 1999 From: dynastydan at worldnet.att.net (Dan Plaskett) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:26:42 -0400 Subject: 1961 Corvette TPI Conversion Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEA7CE.F88F6040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I am brand new to the list so please let me know if I am outside = protocol. I have scanned some of the archives and it certainly looks as = though there is a wealth of information and experience in the members of = this list. I have a 1961 Corvette with a 350 and a 9.5 to 1 compression = ratio and race ported 76cc heads that I am converting to a 91 TPI setup. = I have the stock manifold, runners, throttle body and plenum but no = fuel rails. I just got a set of 305 injectors from a 86 Firebird on = e-bay. I have no fuel rail. I was considering building one using some = bulk fuel rail from Arizona Speed and Marine. $36.00 for 6 feet. I = have no computer or harness. What is the best way to proceed from here. = I certainly don't want to build a leaky fuel rail and risk burning up = my car but I do enjoy doing as much as I can myself. Any suggestions or = assistance would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dan Plaskett=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEA7CE.F88F6040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,
 
I am brand new to the list so please let me know if = I am=20 outside protocol.  I have scanned some of the archives and it = certainly=20 looks as though there is a wealth of information and experience in the = members=20 of this list.  I have a 1961 Corvette with a 350 and a 9.5 to = 1=20 compression ratio and race ported 76cc heads that I am converting to a = 91=20 TPI setup.  I have the stock = manifold, runners, throttle=20 body and plenum but no fuel rails.  I just got a set of 305 = injectors=20 from a 86 Firebird on e-bay.  I have no fuel rail.  I was = considering=20 building one using some bulk fuel rail from Arizona Speed and = Marine. =20 $36.00 for 6 feet.  I have no computer or harness.  What is = the best=20 way to proceed from here.  I certainly don't want to build a leaky = fuel=20 rail and risk burning up my car but I do enjoy doing as much as I can=20 myself.  Any suggestions or assistance would be = appreciated. =20 Thanks in advance.
 
Dan Plaskett 
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BEA7CE.F88F6040-- From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Thu May 27 04:40:30 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:40:30 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: Hi all, I have been following this thread for a while. I am going to put my .02$ in at this point. I am sure some will have "alternate" views of this but ........................ >In the last few months, I've found that detonation is *not* directly >related to boost. On 89 octane and no water injection for instance, if >I whack the throttle open above about 2000 rpm, boost jumps almost >instantly to 5 - 6 psi. Detonation is almost instant as well. However, >if I ease into the throttle and let boost come up over 2 or 3 seconds, it >can go to 7 or 8 psi with no detonation. >Also, if I'm in a situation where I want to accelerate and I'm at say >3000 rpm in a high gear. I can press the throttle up to a certain point >(probably about 3/4) and get say 6 or 7 psi with no detonation. If I >then floor it, boost doesn't increase very quickly until the rpms come >up a bit (takes longer in high gear) and the mixture isn't going lean >according to the A/F meter, but detonation happens pretty much instantly. >Still can't figure that one out. Boost and A/F don't change very quickly, >but detonation seems to be tied directly to the gas pedal. The A/F ratio isn't the only thing happening here. Yes, you can use "extra" fuel to help cool the intake charge and to reduce detonation. It only works to a point though. After a certain point you are just pouring fuel out the t-pipe as the mixture becomes rich enough to be impervious to pre-ignition or any ignition for that matter. The reason you can "ease" into the throttle an let the boost climb slowly has to do with the density of the air charge. It works the same way with a NA engine which likes to "ping" at WOT. If you slowly step into it you reduce the density of the air charge and by the time you get to the higher revs the "time" it takes for the piston to move is reduced. Therefor, even though the cylinder pressures are "equal", the uncontrolled burn doesn't have time to create "ping" like it does at slower engine speeds. When you open the throttle suddenly to WOT you are imposing no restriction to the density of the air entering the cylinders. Boost won't necessarily climb quickly as it takes some time for the turbo to "spool up". If it spools up too quickly the housings are mismatched for the application and the waitgate will have to be a complete equal sized bypass to keep boost under control. My experience with late model engines is that they are tuned from the factory to be on the edge of pre-ignition. Add just 2 lb. boost and you have pushed it beyond what the availible fuel can handle. Here is a question that has helped me many times. Assuming 100% VE and a 300 CID 4 stroke engine, how much air is swept through the cylinders in 2 revolutions at idle with the throttlr closed? >It seems that unless you can factor in rpm (at the very least) in addition >to boost to more accurately predict knock, you have to *really* retard >ignition to cover the worst case, which makes you suffer a power loss most >of the time. That's why I figured the active J & S system would be much >better. Here you are nearly entirely correct. One other thing you are missing or forgetting though. Once pre-ignition has started, you have to retard the timing further to get rid of it than you would have if you prevented it in the first place. IMHO the best way to handle this is to figure out how much retard it requires to eliminate the ping then add a boost retard function to the ignition system so it retards the timing to that level under boost conditions. In other words retard the timing a couple of degrees at a time until the ping goes away then set your boost retard to that level. Adding a knock sensor from there will make sure that under abnormal operating conditions you won't have to worry about it. I mentioned once before in another post I had added a ignition retard device to one of my old Pontiacs. I finally have dug up the notes on it. This may be a "cheap" alternative for many. The unit I used was not and ECM. It is an ESC controller off a 82 Chevy P/U. This was a standalone system that worked with the normal dissy and uses a Knock sensor with a board to retard the timing until knock goes away. It is fairly easy to connect and doesn't require much besides the sensor and the proper ignition module. I forgot to bring the part #s home with me. If any are interested I can scan the skitz and include the part #s I used. I had to manufacture a dissy for my Pontiac as I was using a Tripower intake and a normal HEI won't fit behind it. You should be able to hook it into your current ignition system as the negative of the coil goes out to the module and as long as there is no "knock" signal it just comes back. Otherwise it "delays" it until the knock signal goes away. Scott From shannen at grolen.com Thu May 27 05:00:39 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:00:39 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: Thinking that higher piston speeds will tend to fill cylinders better on intake stroke, and lose less pressure to leakage on compression stroke. Shannen Gary Derian wrote: > > I don't see where stroke length has any effect but intake valve closing sure > does. > > Gary Derian > > > > Another tidbit that may or may not help is that my 91 Mitsu Eclipse > > > Turbo 5-speed had only 120 lbs. of compression pressure on all four > > > sylinders.... > > > > > I believe that cranking compression ratio has more relation to stroke > > length and valve timing than compression ratio. Anyone? > > Shannen From garfield at cyberlynk.com Thu May 27 05:14:55 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:14:55 -0400 Subject: 7730 and dis Message-ID: On Wed, 26 May 1999 22:44:45 -0400, "Bruce Plecan" wrote: >Would you share the part no., or application of that sensor?. >Does anyone know which, of that sytle sensor is the most compact?. Sure, once I unpack it. B) But it's just the vanilla GM mag crank sensor that's used on tonsOcars. Nuthin special. Gar From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Thu May 27 05:19:42 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:19:42 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck problem solved Message-ID: Carl, Great to hear you found that one. Although I had no input for you I was thinking about it for the past few days. Sounds like I'm not the only one who forgets the "basics" from time to time. I will definitely remember what you found in the future. Scott From gscottp at ix.netcom.com Thu May 27 05:29:42 1999 From: gscottp at ix.netcom.com (G. Scott Ponton) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 01:29:42 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging Message-ID: Stoke length is the forgotten variable. It has a lot to do with cranking compression. The stroke determines when the intake valve closing event has the greatest impact. As the stroke changes the mean velosity of the piston changes. Also the piston and rods relationship to the crank changes as well as the dwell time at TDC and BDC. Scott From nwester at eidnet.org Thu May 27 07:12:22 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 03:12:22 -0400 Subject: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED Message-ID: Bob, I'm sold--you going to post the technical on this setup sometime ?? Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- From: rr To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 7:39 PM Subject: Re: Ignition advance, was Re: alternative engines, WARPED >Bruce (or is that Grumpy?) wrote: > >>Kinda depends on the WOT pressure drop across the carb., and spring rate of >>the vac, advance used. Even with the same no. degrees per amount of vac., >>by different spring rates/dia. combinations things could vary. Going from >>6-10 start to 20 something at 700rpm, 30 something at WOT (@3,000 rpm), and >>40ish at cruise with a OD kinda hard to do thata way (mechanical). Hence >>the real beauty of ecm's, IMHO. >> Grumpy > > >Bruce is speaking huge amounts of wisdom here, nothing can come close >to how an ecm handles spark control. > >I've installed a '747 ecm and spark control system on a carb'd car, >what a difference. Drivability, power, mileage, have all improved. >(Yes, I'm still working on the write-up. The cutoff is next week, >as I'm going back to school, along with working). > >Couple of things that mech/vac distrib's aren't/can't do: > > A 210 point table, based on rpm and manifold vac, that defines > the main spark advance value. This in itself blows away any > centrif/vac-adv distributor. > > Startup spark, additional timing added for a short time after > the engine is first started. Keeps engine from stalling (choke). > > Coolant compensation spark, additional timing added/subtracted > as a function of engine temp. > > Hi-way spark, after a set period of time, above a set speed, > additional timing added for better mileage. > > Knock detect and retard, along with testing of the ESC system. > > PE spark, at WOT, additional fuel is added, and spark is also > added to take full advantage. > >Well, more than a couple, but I hope I can get the idea across. >I'm sold on this... > >BobR. > >>>| I could be wrong at this, but what I have seen is, ported vacuum is >>>dead >>>| at idle, because it is above the butterfly....and as throttle is >>>increased, >>>| vacuum is generated at the "port" and does not go away at full >>>| throttle,,,,,great for emissions but terrible for performance,,,,,the same >>>| for MPG.... >>>| -Carl Summers > >>>>| You sure about that? I have always understood that a vac advance can >>>>| reads ported vacuum in order to affect a curve that begins as the >>>>throttle >>>>| is opened and increases as more throttle is applied, up to the point at >>>>| which all vacuum (manifold and therefore ported as well) fades under >>>>heavy >>>>| throttle openings, at which point the advance will decline again and the >>>>| engine will see only mechanical advance. This is apparently to provide >>>>| extra advance for economy at part throttle. Anybody who can further >>>>| illustrate this concept, please do because if I am wrong here I'm going >>>>to >>>>| have some serious rethinking to do! >>>>| Aaron Willis > > From nwester at eidnet.org Thu May 27 07:12:28 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 03:12:28 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: After hot-tanking and jet washing, all threads are re-tapped, blown clean and where needed, sealer is reapplied to bolt threads at "torque" up time. Hope this helps...if this is just at valve job time, to risk non-contamination, I'd just clean all bolts and apply sealer to the threads again. SnapOn does make a handy air powered vacuum cleaner !! Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- From: Stowe, Ted-SEA To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 6:34 PM Subject: v8 block thread cleaning > >howdy. > >what do you guys use to clean up the block head bolt holes ? >it would be criminal to torque my shiny heads to all that crud down there, >which I think exits to the water jacket and or the oil pan ? especially with >the arp thread sealer/lube on them. > >I see that snap on has a thread chaser tool set, rtd-42, however I can't >seem to find a local snap on guy to buy it from. > >compressed air would blow that junk down into my engine beyond any doubt. > >so if you were doing a valve job, what do you use ? > >thanks, Ted Stowe > From nwester at eidnet.org Thu May 27 07:12:32 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 03:12:32 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Todd, the only problem being the transaxle !! Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- From: Todd....!! To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 11:36 AM Subject: Re: Prowler V6 >Cool to know! > >HOWEVER, accordin to my calculations at: >( http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/dragtable.htm ) > > >Mid 14's are not my idea of a quick car, ESPECIALLY for that price! > >Even a simple lil paxton or turbo would've probably DOUBLED the power, >thus givin it about 400 instead of a puny 200 hp at the rear wheels! >ALSO giving it a quarter time in the 11's! Beating out the VIPER by a >fair amount! > >What do ya think? > >LATER! > >Todd....!! > > >AL8001 at aol.com wrote: >> >> The 99 Prowler has the all aluminum 3.5L V6 also used in the LHS and 300M. >> The drive line of a Prowler consists of a front engine and a rear mounted >> trans axel. Similar to a Porsche 924/944, 928 and the 65 Tempest. >> >> 3.5L all aluminum DOHC V6 253 HP @ 6,400 255 FT @ 3,950. It also has a >> dual tuned intake system to give a broad power curve. Compression is around >> 10 to 1. >> >> Sounds like enough for a 2,800 Lb street cruser to me. >> >> The 98 and older Prowler has a lesser 3.5L V6 cast iron block with a aluminum >> head. >> >> Power (SAE Net) 214 bhp (157 kW) @ 5850 rpm >> >> Torque (SAE Net) 221 lb ft (303 Nm) @ 3100 rpm >> >> Max Engine Speed 6464 rpm >> >> Harold > > > From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Thu May 27 11:21:44 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:21:44 -0400 Subject: Message-ID: At 09:16 PM 5/26/99 -0400, you wrote: >They are 2764 PROMs (8kx8). This ECM has one that says "FED" on one, and >"5226263" and "5226611" on the other. One number is the same as the ECM PN. >I got both PROMs out w/o damaging the board. The PROMs are read and >disassembled, and a schematic is pretty well laid out for the hardware. You >will NOT >be able to figure out the code without a schematic for the hardware. Pretty >clever >those mopar guys...... What kind of CPU do the MOPAR computers use? HC11 based? =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From pford at qnx.com Thu May 27 12:36:55 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:36:55 -0400 Subject: 7730 and dis Message-ID: Previously, you (Bruce Plecan) wrote: > > Would you share the part no., or application of that sensor?. > Does anyone know which, of that sytle sensor is the most compact?. > Thanks > Sleepy Its the stock gm sensor for the 90 cavalier snip btw THANKS Gar! -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From clendenc at execpc.com Thu May 27 14:11:07 1999 From: clendenc at execpc.com (Chad Clendening) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:11:07 -0400 Subject: Message-ID: The 2 piece systems have the the 6803 . I bit simpler than the HC11. No divide or bit set/clear commands and no Y register. The SMEC's look to have a HC11A, 52 pin PLCC type. Chad "David A. Cooley" wrote: > At 09:16 PM 5/26/99 -0400, you wrote: > > >They are 2764 PROMs (8kx8). This ECM has one that says "FED" on one, and > >"5226263" and "5226611" on the other. One number is the same as the ECM PN. > >I got both PROMs out w/o damaging the board. The PROMs are read and > >disassembled, and a schematic is pretty well laid out for the hardware. You > >will NOT > >be able to figure out the code without a schematic for the hardware. Pretty > >clever > >those mopar guys...... > > What kind of CPU do the MOPAR computers use? HC11 based? > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca Thu May 27 15:21:20 1999 From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:21:20 -0400 Subject: 1961 Corvette TPI Conversion Message-ID: Hi Dan Did a tpied 61 corvette last summer Best thing is to scrounge the fuel rails Might have a mangled set around here email me offt list :peter From StowT at PerkinsCoie.com Thu May 27 16:02:31 1999 From: StowT at PerkinsCoie.com (Stowe, Ted-SEA) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:02:31 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: yes I just waltzed through a Snap-On truck for 10 min, $300 later... they do have a nice set of long bottom tap things made for this purpose, sort of a thread chaser. their handy magnetic light is $75, I 'd hate to ask what the vac cleaner is. > -----Original Message----- > From: Programmer [SMTP:nwester at eidnet.org] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 11:16 PM > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: v8 block thread cleaning > > After hot-tanking and jet washing, all threads are re-tapped, blown clean > and where needed, sealer is reapplied to bolt threads at "torque" up time. > Hope this helps...if this is just at valve job time, to risk > non-contamination, I'd just clean all bolts and apply sealer to the > threads > again. SnapOn does make a handy air powered vacuum cleaner !! > > Lyndon IPTECH > -----Original Message----- > From: Stowe, Ted-SEA > To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > > Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 6:34 PM > Subject: v8 block thread cleaning > > > > > >howdy. > > > >what do you guys use to clean up the block head bolt holes ? > >it would be criminal to torque my shiny heads to all that crud down > there, > >which I think exits to the water jacket and or the oil pan ? especially > with > >the arp thread sealer/lube on them. > > > >I see that snap on has a thread chaser tool set, rtd-42, however I can't > >seem to find a local snap on guy to buy it from. > > > >compressed air would blow that junk down into my engine beyond any doubt. > > > >so if you were doing a valve job, what do you use ? > > > >thanks, Ted Stowe > > From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 27 16:05:30 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:05:30 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: Thanks for the info Bruce! I AM learnin here! LATER! Todd....!! Bruce Plecan wrote: > > All out racing, one per cylinder, 6" or less from valve, during > developement. > Cast iron, keeps more heat in. Tubular run cooler. > Equally distant better. > For racing you want max power, and depending on materials can go to where no > man travels. For general street use you have to look for best resonable > power. Does, 1550dF make enough difference in your testing to be worth the > extra wear and tear, for what that HP is. For instantance, if you run a > 13.5 at 1575, and 13.4 is done at 1500dF. Is it worth it?. That is your > choice. Right now in our Puller, were running a 975dF EGT. Way too cool > for max power. But, at this rate the guy that signs the checks is happy. > The CID he's running is the smallest in his class, so an out right win > against some of these really high rent jobs is unlikely, yet at this temp. > we can do a top 5 anytime, usually better, and drive it onto the trailer. > Racing can be dun for fun, and not as an exercise in check writting. Which > is what he likes. > Also, you can find the best fuel/timing to get a given EGT, on some > combinations, you can run much different fueling/timing, for similiar EGTs. > One usually makes more power. If you run the high temp, might as well make > as much power as possible. > EGT is for comparison in optimizing your tune-up. There are general > guidelines, but optimizing your setup is all that really matters at the end > of the day. > Bashful > > | Question for anyone who knows, > | WHERE would be the best place to install one of these EGT setups on the > | engine itself? Where in the exhaust system? > | I have a v-8 or two one with headers one with just exhaust manifolds > | whcih I'd like to throw an EGT on! > | Do I need one per cylinder or is that overkill? > | I'm sure one per cylinder would be optimum, but what are the other > | options? > | Thanks! > Todd....!! From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 27 16:05:33 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:05:33 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: Excellent idea! Will consider it, sounds like a less expensive alternative to the 8 sensor route! With room for 8 sensors when I get rich, off of real estate.... Dad just became a BROKER a few months ago, will try and use him as my broker, must see how much of the TOTAL 6% take he'll wanna keep from his eldest (and brightest and toughest) son! Dad's mainly into BIG real estate deals, I plan on only doin the smallest stuff possible at first, small multi family units, these are supposed to be cash cows! Then I'll move into single family housing as well after I get my capitol built up enough to compensate for the slackers in the single family's... Anyone into this real estate thang? Reason I bring it up is because this is the way I'll be funding my twin turbo 440/451 project... The labor's cheap, the mistakes are what's expensive, and I'm plannin on bein able to cover the costs with the real estate money... Already have my house usin my good ol trusty VA loan that I qualified for dueto my service in the Air Force... literally $0 down! And I rolled almost ALL the closing costs back into the loan because I got such a 'good' deal on the house at $68,000 a couple a years ago.... Am orienting myself with where the multi family dwelling zones are within my area, Houston and surrounding vicinity.... Will be buyin soon! Am cashin in my 401K money that's been locked for 2+ years due to the last company I worked for going bankrupt n all... They said I should be gettin a check fer $3,000+ THIS FRI! Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... Then mak 2 or 3 payments on each 'loan' over a 6 week period using the $3,000 'loan' money for payment money, then go back within about 6 weeks or so and pay all of em off, then ask for a signature loan from each bank for about the same amount...(signature meaning NO COLLATERAL!) and do the same thing with that signature loan money... This will build credit with the bank(s) as well as a relationship with em... This will allow me to get the deposit money and 'home' improvement loans I may need for some of the real estate investments that I may need the extra cash to fix up.... One of the QUICKEST way to make big money in real estate, I and a LOT of others believe, is to try n get the properties immediately prior to foreclosure, and the goal when lookin at properties to purchase is to get em all for from 10 to 25% below Market Value! Nuff of the 'financin for F.I.' tech today... Hope I didn't BORE ALL of ya with this rattlin on, just tryin to help... Will let ya'll know how it goes.... Sincerely!, Todd....!! Brian Hartman wrote: > > Well the best place to put EGT Pyrometers is about 1" from the exhaust port. > Make sure that you have all your Pyrometer probes angled the same. Weld the > bungs so that they are vertical so that none of the tips are closer to the > exhaust port than another. To have one on each cylinder isn't over kill but > what you can do is have bungs welded on each and plug them with a brass set > screw. If you don't already know which cylinders are your lean ones you can > find it pretty easily in most cars. This way you have the option to check > any cylinder and compare it to a "normal" and if you decide to run one in > each, you can. > > Talk to you soon bro, > > Brian Hartman > 91 GMC Syclone > 91 GMC Syclone <371 miles> > 73 Cuda 440-6 > > Todd....!! wrote: > > > Question for anyone who knows, > > > > WHERE would be the best place to install one of these EGT setups on the > > engine itself? Where in the exhaust system? > > > > I have a v-8 or two one with headers one with just exhaust manifolds > > whcih I'd like to throw an EGT on! > > > > Do I need one per cylinder or is that overkill? > > > > I'm sure one per cylinder would be optimum, but what are the other > > options? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Todd....!! > > 1970 Superbee w/ 440, auto, dana 60, 4.10:1, carb'd > > 1972 Jaguar XJ6 w/ 455 Buick, carb'd > > 1978 Goldwing GL1000, multi carb'd > > 1981 Stang, 5.0, AOD, carb'd > > 1983 T-bird, 5.0, AOD, carb'd > > 1984 Chev shrt bed truck 5.0, 700R4, carb'd > > 1991 Mitsu Eclipse, turbo, 5-speed, F.I.'d > > 1997 Stratus, 2.4 4-cyl, F.I.'d > > > > ALL FOR SALE!! HELP! > > > > Daniel Houlton wrote: > > > > > > d houlton x0710 wrote: > > > > > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd get an EGT, and Oil Temp guage on that, right away. > > > > > > > > Geez, I'm beginning to think I've been extremely lucky so far. > > > > > > > > I did some checking into an EGT gauge a few months ago. Asked the > > > > list about it too. The AutoMeter EGT gauge was on the order of $250. > > > > > > FYI, I just checked my latest JEG's catalog and they have the EGT > > > UltraLight gauge listed now. Price is $110 for the gauge *and* sender. > > > > > > When I called Summit a few months ago with the part numbers I got > > > from AutoMeter, they quoted $101 for the meter and another $141 (!) > > > for the sender. Maybe it was a mistake? Anyways, I think I can > > > afford getting one now... > > > > > > --Dan > > > houlster at inficad.com > > > http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 27 16:05:35 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:05:35 -0400 Subject: Web Links Message-ID: All still offline, at least from where I'm at... Tried bookmarkin the sites for future ref! Thanks for the links! Can't WAIT! LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Since Todd asked, why not. Hummer stuff and Racing stuff haven't been > restored from tape yet. I'm slow. > > I've also been hoarding GMECM stuff in my ftp area, > ftp://xephic.dynip.com as well as some linux stuff. I put the GM stuff > together so its easier for me to find what I need, so feel free. The > digital electronics tutor is pretty kewl also (last item). In random > order: > > Homebrew Automotive: > http://xephic.dynip.com/hb_auto/hb_auto.html > > Low Fanglers Ball: > http://xephic.dynip.com/fanglers2/fanglers.html > > My Father's Scout Troop: > http://xephic.dynip.com/troop108/troop108.html > > My Dodge Truck: > http://xephic.dynip.com/dodge/dodge.html > > EEC Bins: > ftp://xephic.dynip.com/eecbin/ > > Other Neat Stuff: > ftp://xephic.dynip.com/fanglers/ > > My Children: > http://xephic.dynip.com/cats/cats.html > > My Resume: > http://xephic.dynip.com/resume/index.html > > Mikes Jeep: > http://xephic.dynip.com/jeep/jeep.html > > Java Applet Digital Simulation Thingy > http://xephic.dynip.com/degsim/digsim.html > > The Hummer stuff ain't there yet... have to find the backup tape its > on. Its getting there! From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 27 16:05:38 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:05:38 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Gotta love them overheads! My Mitsu Eclipse Turbo 5-speed is one piece of work... The 4 cams are all ROLLER cams, and the thing is lifter-less! The rollers are in the middle of the rockers! The cam rides right on top of the rocker arm rollers themselves! ALL 16 of em! Guess what happens when a lil unsee-able hydraulic adjuster mechanism on the opposite side from the valve on under the rocker arm getss worn or gets crap in it? The thing clatters like I don't know what! Like it's not gettin oil pressure or somethin! That's my current delimma with my Eclipse, the lil adjusters are supposedly $20 each! Times 16 of em puts me WAY over budget for that car, that's one of the reasons I'm drivin the Superbee to work n back, I'd like to see a part that breaks cost more than $200 on my Bee! My ENTIRE friggin 440 didn't even cost more than $135 from the junk yard! The Eclipse also could use another transaxle, have a crank in this one... That'll be fun to pull again, just replaced the clutch and timing belt within the past year... Oh what fun it is to have a foriegn car in your lot! LATER! Todd....!! .. wrote: > > CLsnyder wrote: > I've been a Mopar Man for years - owned a 241 cu Hemi Coronet (1953) among > others. Interest in old cars has had me owning, over the years, a '28 chevy > national, '35 chevy master, 37 hudson terraplane, '53 coronet sierra (hemi), '57 > fargo custom express(rarest truck produced by chrysler since the 2nd war), '63 > valiant 170, '49 VW beetle, etc. etc. > > CL; > Do you recall the Dodge 241 cu.in. demo engine that was set-up as a 4 overhead > cam system back in the mid-to-late '50's? If Chrysler would have made that an > actual production engine things would sure have been even more interesting. As I > recall (fuzzily) they were going to try to get USAC to allow it as a stock block > based installation - or something along those lines. Carl Kiekhaefer (of the > Mercury Outboard Motors fame) may have had a hand somewhere in there I suppose > as he (or rather his staff of race technicians) developed Chrysler's race hemi's > for the Nascar series (Chrysler 300 based cars) in his race shop in Oshkosh, Wi. > I recall that they developed heads, cams, manifolds, etc for Chrysler - complete > with Chrysler part #'s... > rap From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 27 16:05:43 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:05:43 -0400 Subject: Message-ID: Thanks for the link as well Charles!, Todd....!! C. Brooks wrote: > > Check these guys out, they should be able to help you in your quest for info > on Turbo Dodge cars. Some of these guys have Turbo fourbangers in the mid > 12's for reasonable money :) > http://www.sdml.org/ > > Charles Brooks > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Gregory > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 8:00 PM > > >749D9B1.4732012C at aci.net> <374AD3BC.6710 at c-com.net> > <00c601bea6e4$f81b3700$28167018 at ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> > <374B386F.3C91 at c-com.net> > <013b01bea700$04460990$28167018 at ktchnr1.on.wave.home.com> > <374C183E.375F at c-com.net> > >Subject: Mopar 2.2/2.5 FI computer > >Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:10:35 -0500 > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Content-Type: text/plain; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >X-Priority: 3 > >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 > >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 > > > >I'm a sucker for a turbo vehicle. I recently > >bought an '85 Chrysler Laser XT turbo. > >Now, I want to see what makes it tick. > > > >Is there a WWW page out there with in-depth > >ECU info? I removed my ECU last night, > >and it looks like there are a couple PROMs > >on the main board that probably contain > >all the "good stuff" that we're all looking for > > > >In case anyone else is keeping track of > >this stuff, my Logic Module sticker reads: > > > >Part No. 5226795 Supplier 7902 > >Data 02/27/85 15:59:44 2 > > > >There are two chips in one corner with > >stickers on 'em. They look like PROMs. > >One sticker says "FED" on it, and > >the other says "5226795" and > >"5226794" on it. > > > >Plus... > >I have the Haynes maual for the G-body, and > >the wiring diagrams are pretty good, but > >there are still some holes left open. > >Do you know the function of all six wires > >of the diagnostic connector? How 'bout > >all the wires that run between the Power > >Module and the Logic Module? > > > >What is the format of the dignostic > >data stream? I'd like to be able to > >read it without dropping a ton of > >money on a scan tool. > > > >Please don't think of me as just > >another "taker"... > >I'm a "giver", too. > > > >I'm the guy that published the > >Turbo P4 doc, and I helped the > >author or Promgrammer to get > >his application working. Plus, I > >frequently visit CSH, HQ... to > >take out the trash and clean > >the toilets. > > > >Thanks, > >~~~~~~ > >Ron Gregory '85 Laser XT turbo > >rgregory at iname.com Garland, TX > >'91 Syclone > >'78 Malibu (5.7 Vortec TPI project on hold to > > get mini Mopar on the road) > > > > From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 27 16:05:47 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:05:47 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: Guess you'll have ta keep lookin there buddy! I'm in Houston, Texas.... I'm TOTALLY interested in turbo(s), WITH INTERCOOLING! Intercoolin is a must in these days of enlightment n all... Ran up against a lil accord or somethin like that that looked like one of those megaphone foreign jobbies.... I passed up racin a 'slow' drag late 70's firebird , cuz I thought it'd be more of a race if I ran up against a puny lil accord.... Well, that firebird with the slicks was slow in comparison to this lil light blue sleeper accord... It had a custom turbo setup on it! Runs 11's in the 1/4! Was only runnin low 13's the day I raced him in the Stratus due to no slicks on the car that day! Live -n- learn...? LATER! Todd....!! C. Brooks wrote: > > Hey Todd, what state are you in? I live in Maryland and I've yet to find any > people around here interested in Turbocharged V8's :) > > Charles Brooks From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 27 16:05:58 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:05:58 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: Thanks for the references Chris...! May come in handy sometime! LATER! Todd....!! Chris Conlon wrote: > > At 07:43 PM 5/26/99 -0400, C. Brooks wrote: > > >Hey Todd, what state are you in? I live in Maryland and I've yet to find any > >people around here interested in Turbocharged V8's :) > > Replying to all in case others might use this info. Maybe try: > > Maryland Performance Center > 301-258-8883 > 8029 Cessna Ave > Gaithersburg, MD > > Disclaimer: I only ever go there to get bottles filled, so I have no > idea how good they are. They didn't shoot me for driving up in an MR2, > though, which says something I guess. Looked like they had a couple of > service bays. > > Excessive Motorsport > Near Manassas, VA > Naturally I threw their card out just the other day. Supposedly > specializing in Fords and blowers. Never been there. > > Speedcraft > Near College Park, MD > Small place, bunch of bolt-ons, I only went in to get Red Line stuff. > Dunno if they have a shop or not. > > HTH, > Chris C. From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 27 16:06:05 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:06:05 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Hi Gary, More detail about fuel characteristics being 'all wrong' for comression ignition? Thanks! Todd.... Gary Derian wrote: > > No. The fuel characteristics of gasoline are all wrong for compression > ignition. > > Gary Derian > > > > drove off... about a block later, heard a large BOOM and he was at the > side > > > of the road with lots of smoke... Opened the hood and it appeared to > have > > > sheared the head bolts... head was about 1/4" above the block!) > > > > > > Yeah, but isn't that because the injection system is tuned for diesel? > > Couldn't injecting gasoline still work if the injection system was > calibrated > > for gasoline? i.e. maybe inject it at a slower rate? From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 27 16:06:07 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:06:07 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Lyndon, Problem and Transaxle, meaning that the transaxle will break? That can be easily remedied.... Use a different, stronger tranny.... LATER! Todd....!! ------- Programmer wrote: > > Todd, > > the only problem being the transaxle !! > > Lyndon IPTECH > -----Original Message----- > From: Todd....!! > To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 11:36 AM > Subject: Re: Prowler V6 > > >Cool to know! > > > >HOWEVER, accordin to my calculations at: > >( http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/dragtable.htm ) > > > > > >Mid 14's are not my idea of a quick car, ESPECIALLY for that price! > > > >Even a simple lil paxton or turbo would've probably DOUBLED the power, > >thus givin it about 400 instead of a puny 200 hp at the rear wheels! > >ALSO giving it a quarter time in the 11's! Beating out the VIPER by a > >fair amount! > > > >What do ya think? > > > >LATER! > > > >Todd....!! > > > > > >AL8001 at aol.com wrote: > >> > >> The 99 Prowler has the all aluminum 3.5L V6 also used in the LHS and > 300M. > >> The drive line of a Prowler consists of a front engine and a rear mounted > >> trans axel. Similar to a Porsche 924/944, 928 and the 65 Tempest. > >> > >> 3.5L all aluminum DOHC V6 253 HP @ 6,400 255 FT @ 3,950. It also > has a > >> dual tuned intake system to give a broad power curve. Compression is > around > >> 10 to 1. > >> > >> Sounds like enough for a 2,800 Lb street cruser to me. > >> > >> The 98 and older Prowler has a lesser 3.5L V6 cast iron block with a > aluminum > >> head. > >> > >> Power (SAE Net) 214 bhp (157 kW) @ 5850 rpm > >> > >> Torque (SAE Net) 221 lb ft (303 Nm) @ 3100 rpm > >> > >> Max Engine Speed 6464 rpm > >> > >> Harold > > > > > > From tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com Thu May 27 16:13:15 1999 From: tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:13:15 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: David Piper wrote: > > I have schematic of orig Carter knock eliminator. Understand that each > engine has unique acoustic profile that may require filtering to be > effective. I applied MSD knock detector to my Z on DynoJet to no avail. > > Better design uses DSP customized to engine. I'm not familiar with that. What is the Carter knock eliminator? Can you send me the schmatic or post it to the ftp site? How does it work, what's it cost, etc, etc. Any sites with more info? thanks --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com Thu May 27 16:21:19 1999 From: tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:21:19 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: Brian Hartman wrote: > > Well the best place to put EGT Pyrometers is about 1" from the exhaust port. > Make sure that you have all your Pyrometer probes angled the same. Weld the > bungs so that they are vertical so that none of the tips are closer to the What about on a cast manifold? Can I just drill and tap it? Some of the probes I've seen are a clamp on type that won't work for my manifold. I'll need a screw in type of some sort. Is there any risk the probe (or a brass plug) cracking the manifold from the hole? --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com Thu May 27 16:25:20 1999 From: tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:25:20 -0400 Subject: EGT gauges Message-ID: Charles wrote: > > On Wed, 26 May 1999 13:29:22 -0400, you wrote: > > >I did some checking into an EGT gauge a few months ago. Asked the > >list about it too. The AutoMeter EGT gauge was on the order of $250 > > I bought the gauge and interface box for $100+ and then > discovered they wanted that much and more again for the > thermocouple! I found the same thing a few months ago calling for prices. The gauge was like $120 plus another $150 for the sensor. I did actually call JEG's last night to verify the cost, and they did state positively that the $110 price in their new catalogs is for both the gauge and the sensor. --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu Thu May 27 16:25:51 1999 From: gparmer at acesag.auburn.edu (Gregory A. Parmer) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:25:51 -0400 Subject: Butterfly valves part II Message-ID: ...Got the butterfly valve flow rate fax. Thanks Dave (TurboDave, right?). I scanned it and posted to efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming as "flowbrws.jpg" and "flow.jpg". The first is viewable and printable with a web browser. The second is a better quality one, but requires a nicer program (like Photoshop) to print on a single page. later, -greg From spectro at ma.ultranet.com Thu May 27 16:27:34 1999 From: spectro at ma.ultranet.com (SPECTRO COATING CORP.) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:27:34 -0400 Subject: 1961 Corvette TPI Conversion Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BEA83D.2BD67920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dan, I have a spare set of TPI rails(among other thngs) that i'm = probably not going to use - contact me off the list if you're = interested.=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Hello, =20 I am brand new to the list so please let me know if I am outside = protocol. I have scanned some of the archives and it certainly looks as = though there is a wealth of information and experience in the members of = this list. I have a 1961 Corvette with a 350 and a 9.5 to 1 compression = ratio and race ported 76cc heads that I am converting to a 91 TPI setup. = I have the stock manifold, runners, throttle body and plenum but no = fuel rails. I just got a set of 305 injectors from a 86 Firebird on = e-bay. I have no fuel rail. I was considering building one using some = bulk fuel rail from Arizona Speed and Marine. $36.00 for 6 feet. I = have no computer or harness. What is the best way to proceed from here. = I certainly don't want to build a leaky fuel rail and risk burning up = my car but I do enjoy doing as much as I can myself. Any suggestions or = assistance would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. =20 Dan Plaskett=20 ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BEA83D.2BD67920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dan, I=20 have a spare set of TPI rails(among other thngs) that i'm probably = not going=20 to use - contact me off the list if you're interested.
 
 

 
Hello,
 
I am brand new to the list so please let me know = if I am=20 outside protocol.  I have scanned some of the archives and it = certainly=20 looks as though there is a wealth of information and experience in = the=20 members of this list.  I have a 1961 Corvette with a 350 and a = 9.5 to 1=20 compression ratio and race ported 76cc heads that I am converting to = a 91=20 TPI setup.  I have the stock manifold, runners, throttle body = and=20 plenum but no fuel rails.  I just got a set of 305 injectors = from a 86=20 Firebird on e-bay.  I have no fuel rail.  I was = considering=20 building one using some bulk fuel rail from Arizona Speed and = Marine. =20 $36.00 for 6 feet.  I have no computer or harness.  What = is the=20 best way to proceed from here.  I certainly don't want to build = a leaky=20 fuel rail and risk burning up my car but I do enjoy doing as much as = I can=20 myself.  Any suggestions or assistance would be = appreciated. =20 Thanks in advance.
 
Dan = Plaskett 
------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BEA83D.2BD67920-- From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Thu May 27 16:33:01 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:33:01 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: >Mid 14's are not my idea of a quick car, ESPECIALLY for that price! Its not designed to be quick - just cool looking. >Even a simple lil paxton or turbo would've probably DOUBLED the power, >thus givin it about 400 instead of a puny 200 hp at the rear wheels! Realistically, you're not going to double the power without doing some major, major work. New rods, crank, transaxle, clutch at an absolute minimum. A nitrous shot would help, but still, the bottom end is not all that tough. With a Paxton, you'd get 7-8 lbs of boost, which would give you another 1/3 or so HP. From tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com Thu May 27 16:51:47 1999 From: tc75918 at hpra5.msc.az.boeing.com (d houlton x0710) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:51:47 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: G. Scott Ponton wrote: > > pre-ignition or any ignition for that matter. The reason you can "ease" into > the throttle an let the boost climb slowly has to do with the density of the > air charge. It works the same way with a NA engine which likes to "ping" at > WOT. If you slowly step into it you reduce the density of the air charge and > by the time you get to the higher revs the "time" it takes for the piston to > move is reduced. Therefor, even though the cylinder pressures are "equal", > the uncontrolled burn doesn't have time to create "ping" like it does at > slower engine speeds. > When you open the throttle suddenly to WOT you are imposing no > restriction to the density of the air entering the cylinders. Boost won't > necessarily climb quickly as it takes some time for the turbo to "spool up". Makes sense I guess. I really didn't know why it is happening (or how to prevent it), just that it does. > > > >It seems that unless you can factor in rpm (at the very least) in addition > >to boost to more accurately predict knock, you have to *really* retard > >ignition to cover the worst case, which makes you suffer a power loss most > >of the time. That's why I figured the active J & S system would be much > >better. > > Here you are nearly entirely correct. One other thing you are missing or Hmm, now that I think about it, although boost and rpm would be more accurate for predicting knock, I just explained that at a certain point, knock was directly related to the gas pedal once boost and rpm stabalized. You explained this because when you go to WOT, boost and rpm don't change instantly, but air density does. So, since air density is measured by the MAF and appears to be working correctly because the A/F meter isn't dropping off lean, maybe then monitoring boost, rpm and injector pulse width (or duty cycle, or maybe the MAF signal directly) could pretty accurately predict knock? It would take trial and error I'm sure to tune such a system, but it seems it would be relatively easy to do just by running a few tests. Maybe use boost and rpm to set a baseline retard and then use the injector pulse width / duty cycle / MAF output (or maybe even throttle position?) to set the gain to add more retard as necessary? If I were to come up with a box that could monitor these 3 things and come up with an output (say a 0 - 5 volt signal for instance), any ideas on how to make the ignition retard accordingly? Do the MSD prducts happen to have any kind of external inputs that could be used to retard ignition? They make a stand alone retard system with a dash mounted dial. If this dial is just a pot (seems likely) maybe I could use that, snip the dial off and feed an appropriate signal from my little black box? > forgetting though. Once pre-ignition has started, you have to retard the > timing further to get rid of it than you would have if you prevented it in > the first place. IMHO the best way to handle this is to figure out how much Yes, I have noticed this too. If it starts detonatiing at say 6 psi, I have to back all the way down to like 2 or 3 before it stops, but I can go right back up to 5 (all within a span of a second or so) without it happening again. > > I mentioned once before in another post I had added a ignition retard > device to one of my old Pontiacs. I finally have dug up the notes on it. > This may be a "cheap" alternative for many. The unit I used was not and ECM. > It is an ESC controller off a 82 Chevy P/U. This was a standalone system > that worked with the normal dissy and uses a Knock sensor with a board to > retard the timing until knock goes away. It is fairly easy to connect and > doesn't require much besides the sensor and the proper ignition module. I > forgot to bring the part #s home with me. If any are interested I can scan > the skitz and include the part #s I used. I had to manufacture a dissy for > my Pontiac as I was using a Tripower intake and a normal HEI won't fit > behind it. You should be able to hook it into your current ignition system > as the negative of the coil goes out to the module and as long as there is > no "knock" signal it just comes back. Otherwise it "delays" it until the > knock signal goes away. Yes, please could you send this on to me or post to the ftp site? I'm afraid my knowledge of the ignition system is a bit limited. What do you mean by connecting it to the neg side of the coil and it either "just comes back" or "it delays it"? Is this like grounding the neg side instantly or waiting an instant to ground it or something? Is controlling the ground of the coil how you would retard ignition? thanks --Dan houlster at inficad.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From brianhartman at sprintmail.com Thu May 27 16:58:53 1999 From: brianhartman at sprintmail.com (Brian Hartman) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:58:53 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: d houlton x0710 wrote: > Brian Hartman wrote: > > > > Well the best place to put EGT Pyrometers is about 1" from the exhaust port. > > Make sure that you have all your Pyrometer probes angled the same. Weld the > > bungs so that they are vertical so that none of the tips are closer to the > > What about on a cast manifold? Can I just drill and tap it? Yep you can do that. That is what you do to the thicker manifolds. > Some of the > probes I've seen are a clamp on type that won't work for my manifold. > I'll need a screw in type of some sort. Yep, these are available from almost everyone that makes EGT's > Is there any risk the probe (or > a brass plug) cracking the manifold from the hole? Not really but what you can do is drill a hole and then weld the bung to the manifold and it will take the stress instead of the manifold. If you are using a manifold that is readily available for cheap, I'd just drill and tap it. Hope that helps, Brian Hartman > > > --Dan > houlster at inficad.com > http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From A70Duster at aol.com Thu May 27 17:32:43 1999 From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:32:43 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: In a message dated 5/27/1999 10:42:36 AM Mountain Daylight Time, frederic at xephic.dynip.com writes: << Its not designed to be quick - just cool looking. >> If it don't go, chrome it......:) From A70Duster at aol.com Thu May 27 17:41:43 1999 From: A70Duster at aol.com (A70Duster at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:41:43 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: In a message dated 5/27/1999 11:13:38 AM Mountain Daylight Time, brianhartman at sprintmail.com writes: << drill a hole and then weld the bung >> Is that where bunghole comes from :)~ See ya, Mike From clint at clintsmc.demon.co.uk Thu May 27 17:49:07 1999 From: clint at clintsmc.demon.co.uk (Clint Sharp) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:49:07 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: In message <37497BA1.1BF5 at c-com.net>, Todd....!! writes >COOL DEAL! > >I know that Aluminum(AL) is a bit less than half the weight of Iron(FE) >at the moleculer level, but how much lighter is plastic than either? > >They MUSt've used steel cylinder liners in that plstic block, right? > >Just wonderin.... > >LATER! > >Todd....!! I believe there is a, or at least was going to be, a race series based 'round a plastic engine in the US, I read about it a couple of years ago now but they test drove a car and pronounced it to be a good thing. -- Clint Sharp From Jason_Leone at amat.com Thu May 27 19:06:07 1999 From: Jason_Leone at amat.com (Jason_Leone at amat.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:06:07 -0400 Subject: Knock sensor thread pitch? Message-ID: Anybody know what the available thread pitch is on a standard single wire GM knock sensor? 1/8 NPT? Reason I ask is this...I'm using an Electromotive TEC II on my VW VR6 engine, but the TEC II wants one single wire GM knock sensor. I currently have dual Bosch knock sensors (one per bank of cylinders) that came with the factory Motronic 2.9 system (but they aren't doing anything, obviously). The Bosch knock sensors are multi wire, and not single. I'll have to check my Bentley Manual wiring diagrams, to figure out the Bosch knock sensor wiring (-gnd, shield, +pos, etc.). I'm wondering if the tapped threads in the VR6 block will accept a GM knock sensor...perhaps the Bosch knock sensors are a metric thread (12mm or so)? Another thought is to use a Bosch single wire knock sensor from the late '80s and early '90s 4 cyl/8v VWs. What do you guys think? Oh yeah, "Todd...!!" gets the award for the most posts in a DIY_EFI digest. Get to work Todd, go buy some foreclosures or something! =) Jason '93 SLC From gderian at oh.verio.com Thu May 27 19:09:42 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:09:42 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: I sent this reply a few days ago: Diesel fuel needs to burn easily so it ignites the instant it is injected to produce a nice flame from the injector. Gasoline is made to resist ignition so it doesn't ignite until after the spark fires. Gasoline in a diesel will form a cloud of fuel in the chamber then detonate in a really big bang. Its funny how fuel made to resist detonation in a spark ignition engine detonates badly in a compression ignition engine and vice versa. Gary Derian > Hi Gary, > > More detail about fuel characteristics being 'all wrong' for comression > ignition? > > Thanks! > > Todd.... > From gderian at oh.verio.com Thu May 27 19:09:43 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:09:43 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: I had an Eagle Talon, same car as yours and it ran flawlessly for 110,000 miles. Just tuneups, well ok, it needed plug wires, brake pads, tires, timing belt and a wheel bearing. Not bad. Gary Derian > Gotta love them overheads! > > My Mitsu Eclipse Turbo 5-speed is one piece of work... The 4 cams are > all ROLLER cams, and the thing is lifter-less! The rollers are in the > middle of the rockers! The cam rides right on top of the rocker arm > rollers themselves! ALL 16 of em! > > Guess what happens when a lil unsee-able hydraulic adjuster mechanism on > the opposite side from the valve on under the rocker arm getss worn or > gets crap in it? > > The thing clatters like I don't know what! Like it's not gettin oil > pressure or somethin! > > That's my current delimma with my Eclipse, the lil adjusters are > supposedly $20 each! Times 16 of em puts me WAY over budget for that > car, that's one of the reasons I'm drivin the Superbee to work n back, > I'd like to see a part that breaks cost more than $200 on my Bee! My > ENTIRE friggin 440 didn't even cost more than $135 from the junk yard! > > The Eclipse also could use another transaxle, have a crank in this > one... That'll be fun to pull again, just replaced the clutch and > timing belt within the past year... Oh what fun it is to have a foriegn > car in your lot! From mike.stegbauer at compaq.com Thu May 27 19:37:27 1999 From: mike.stegbauer at compaq.com (Stegbauer, Michael) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:37:27 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: > Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in > several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan > using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit > it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... > > Then mak 2 or 3 payments on each 'loan' over a 6 week period using the > $3,000 'loan' money for payment money, then go back within about 6 weeks > or so and pay all of em off, then ask for a signature loan from each > bank for about the same amount...(signature meaning NO COLLATERAL!) and > do the same thing with that signature loan money... This will build > credit with the bank(s) as well as a relationship with em... Wow! I'm looking into buying some land. If the loan officers in Houston are this stupid, maybe I should get a loan there. From mike.stegbauer at compaq.com Thu May 27 19:42:33 1999 From: mike.stegbauer at compaq.com (Stegbauer, Michael) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:42:33 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: > What about on a cast manifold? Can I just drill and tap it? Some of the > probes I've seen are a clamp on type that won't work for my manifold. > I'll need a screw in type of some sort. Is there any risk the probe (or > a brass plug) cracking the manifold from the hole? It probably depends on the manifold, but here are some directions... http://www.myzero.com/gauges/egt.html From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Thu May 27 19:56:36 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:56:36 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > rollers themselves! ALL 16 of em! Its actually a good design - less parts, no pushrods to bend or wear, yada yada. > > That's my current delimma with my Eclipse, the lil adjusters are > > supposedly $20 each! Times 16 of em puts me WAY over budget for that get a used set of heads from the junkyard for $50 a pop after listening to the car. Also, have you checked aftermarket parts for your heads? Might be less expensive than Mitsu parts, though not always. Check around! > ENTIRE friggin 440 didn't even cost more than $135 from the junk yard! See, I need to find a junkyard with a supply of decent, running 440's. Up here in CT old dodges (especially trucks) are lifted right off the flatbed/tow truck right into the squisher. Though, they have four (not one, FOUR) yugo's in the back. Can't imagine why. -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From brianhartman at sprintmail.com Thu May 27 20:06:39 1999 From: brianhartman at sprintmail.com (Brian Hartman) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:06:39 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: Hahaha! It's hard for me to say the word "Bung" with a straight face :) A70Duster at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/27/1999 11:13:38 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > brianhartman at sprintmail.com writes: > > << drill a hole and then weld the bung >> > > Is that where bunghole comes from :)~ > > See ya, > > Mike From atc347 at c-com.net Thu May 27 20:27:44 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:27:44 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Hi Fred, You'd probably know more abou the bottom ends of these newer engine's thatn I... However, my STOCK 440 can put out well over double it's stock power rating with NO mods except the blower... What about that? Are is that like comparin apples n oranges or somethin.... or tin cans vs. aluminum cans...? lol However, even with only a 30% increase in HP from 200 hp to 300 hp this would bring the e.t.'s from mid 14's to mid 12's, a GREAT improvement! and that may even make the prowler a Viper contender, at least in the 1/4 mile, ey? I think the bottom end would hold double... In the old days, the big ol muscle v-8's could hold around 3 or more times the stock advertisedd HP!! I'm pretty sure the newer engine's can hold at least DOUBLE, don't ya think? Wonder if the Prowlers crank and/or rods are forged? Just look at what the shtang dudes are doin with BONE STOCK 5.0 engines! with the paxtons and s, t, u, v, w, x, y, & z trim centrif. superchargers.... Stock the stangy pulls a MAX of 225 hp at the flywheel, these dudes are pushin AT LEAST double that with these chargers! Ya know! That's why YOU YOURSELF have a turbo fetish of your own.... It's like runnin 'FREE' HP! LATER! Todd.... http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > >Mid 14's are not my idea of a quick car, ESPECIALLY for that price! > > Its not designed to be quick - just cool looking. > > >Even a simple lil paxton or turbo would've probably DOUBLED the power, > >thus givin it about 400 instead of a puny 200 hp at the rear wheels! > > Realistically, you're not going to double the power without doing some > major, major work. New rods, crank, transaxle, clutch at an absolute > minimum. A nitrous shot would help, but still, the bottom end is not > all that tough. > > With a Paxton, you'd get 7-8 lbs of boost, which would give you another > 1/3 or so HP. From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Thu May 27 20:38:16 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:38:16 -0400 Subject: Knock sensor thread pitch? Message-ID: As I recall it is 1/4" NPT. I had to plug the old location and drill/tap a new one for my V8 S-10 conversion --steve Jason_Leone at amat.com wrote: > > Anybody know what the available thread pitch is on a standard single wire GM > knock sensor? 1/8 NPT? > > Reason I ask is this...I'm using an Electromotive TEC II on my VW VR6 engine, > but the TEC II wants one single wire GM knock sensor. I currently have dual > Bosch knock sensors (one per bank of cylinders) that came with the factory > Motronic 2.9 system (but they aren't doing anything, obviously). The Bosch knock > sensors are multi wire, and not single. I'll have to check my Bentley Manual > wiring diagrams, to figure out the Bosch knock sensor wiring (-gnd, shield, > +pos, etc.). I'm wondering if the tapped threads in the VR6 block will accept a > GM knock sensor...perhaps the Bosch knock sensors are a metric thread (12mm or > so)? > > Another thought is to use a Bosch single wire knock sensor from the late '80s > and early '90s 4 cyl/8v VWs. What do you guys think? > > Oh yeah, "Todd...!!" gets the award for the most posts in a DIY_EFI digest. Get > to work Todd, go buy some foreclosures or something! =) > > Jason > '93 SLC -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Thu May 27 21:09:13 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:09:13 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: > > Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in > > several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan > > using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit > > it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... > > > > Then mak 2 or 3 payments on each 'loan' over a 6 week period using the > > $3,000 'loan' money for payment money, then go back within about 6 weeks > > or so and pay all of em off, then ask for a signature loan from each > > bank for about the same amount...(signature meaning NO COLLATERAL!) and > > do the same thing with that signature loan money... This will build > > credit with the bank(s) as well as a relationship with em... And if you screw up and miss a payment or they find out what you are doing, you go to jail for "Kiting". Federal offense, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00 From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Thu May 27 21:10:10 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:10:10 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge (was: Re: Ignition retard knock sensor.) Message-ID: > Hahaha! It's hard for me to say the word "Bung" with a straight face :) > I am the great Cornholio... I have no Bunghole....... From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Thu May 27 21:19:24 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:19:24 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: > However, my STOCK 440 can put out well over double it's stock power > rating with NO mods except the blower... What about that? Are is that > like comparin apples n oranges or somethin.... or tin cans vs. aluminum > cans...? lol > > However, even with only a 30% increase in HP from 200 hp to 300 hp this > would bring the e.t.'s from mid 14's to mid 12's, a GREAT improvement! > and that may even make the prowler a Viper contender, at least in the > 1/4 mile, ey? 30% more from a 200HP engine would be 260... 50% more would be 300 > > I think the bottom end would hold double... > > In the old days, the big ol muscle v-8's could hold around 3 or more > times the stock advertisedd HP!! I'm pretty sure the newer engine's can > hold at least DOUBLE, don't ya think? > Nope... They try so hard to cut costs that MOST engines are built at the ragged edge of holding together anymore... A good performance engine now adays may hold another 50% but not double. > Wonder if the Prowlers crank and/or rods are forged? Nope... It's a plain vanilla V6 that they also put in their FWD cars. > > Just look at what the shtang dudes are doin with BONE STOCK 5.0 engines! > with the paxtons and s, t, u, v, w, x, y, & z trim centrif. > superchargers.... > That 5.0 is a 30 year old design... The new 4.6 won't hold much more than 30% over stock without new crank, rods etc, and the 4.6 has been the ONLY V8 stang motor for the last 2-3 years. > Stock the stangy pulls a MAX of 225 hp at the flywheel, these dudes are > pushin AT LEAST double that with these chargers! Ya know! > That's what they'd like you to believe... Most are lucky to get 300HP with TONS of cash dumped into the car. I know plenty of Stang owners that would love to see 400HP without buying a complete new engine. From kenkelly at lucent.com Thu May 27 21:22:52 1999 From: kenkelly at lucent.com (Ken Kelly) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:22:52 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: David, I have been running a Carter knock eliminator on my street rod for the last year. It actually works great. I would love to have a copy of the schematic. I've never known anyone else to use one. I bought it brand new at a flea market last year. It looks to be a late 70's or early 80's vintage product. Ken d houlton x0710 wrote: > > David Piper wrote: > > > > I have schematic of orig Carter knock eliminator. Understand that each > > engine has unique acoustic profile that may require filtering to be > > effective. I applied MSD knock detector to my Z on DynoJet to no avail. > > > > Better design uses DSP customized to engine. > > I'm not familiar with that. What is the Carter knock eliminator? Can > you send me the schmatic or post it to the ftp site? How does it work, > what's it cost, etc, etc. Any sites with more info? > > thanks > --Dan > houlster at inficad.com > http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Thu May 27 22:04:57 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:04:57 -0400 Subject: Ignition retard knock sensor. Message-ID: > I have schematic of orig Carter knock eliminator. Understand that each > engine has unique acoustic profile that may require filtering to be > effective. I applied MSD knock detector to my Z on DynoJet to no avail. > > Better design uses DSP customized to engine. > I was working at Carter during development. circa 1978 Most was done in lab with freq. sources, I do not recall testing it on dyno. and have forgot the project engineer name. but he looked like Elton John. alex From mikem at southern.co.nz Thu May 27 22:10:27 1999 From: mikem at southern.co.nz (Mike Morrin) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:10:27 -0400 Subject: Bosch D-Jetronic Message-ID: At 04:10 pm 26/05/99 -0700, James Thomas wrote: > The ITB rules do not allow us to substitute alternate injection systems > but your suggestion of a digital control unit is interesting. What >information do you have regarding retrofitting a digital unit to the >K-Jet system? I presume you mean d-jet. Most any of the aftermarket systems will work, but one point to watch is the injector flow rate. The original d-jet injectors have a much greater flow rate (for the engine size) than most modern systems. This causes problems with getting the idle right unless the injectors are pulsed only one per 720 crank degrees. Many aftermarket ECUs pulse the injectors every 360 degrees. You can overcome this by fitting smaller injectors, or find an ECU designed for a camshaft driven trigger. BTW, do you have any info on the correct calibration procedure for the LVDT (map sensor) used on the D-jet systems? The only (unofficial) procedure I have seen is to adjust for correct HCs at 2500 rpm unloaded. Mike Morrin 1975 Jaguar XJ-S with d-jetronic From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Thu May 27 22:38:04 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:38:04 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: > 30% more from a 200HP engine would be 260... 50% more would be 300 Maybe Todd and I should split a calculator :) > Nope... They try so hard to cut costs that MOST engines are built at the > ragged edge of holding together anymore... I've learned this the hard way unfortunately. > 30% over stock without new crank, rods etc, and the 4.6 has been the ONLY V8 > stang motor for the last 2-3 years. I actually like the motor... was going to use one in my mid-engine car project, with a Paxton. Nice and simple. > TONS of cash dumped into the car. I know plenty of Stang owners that would > love to see 400HP without buying a complete new engine. Not to be opposite, but I find that hard to believe, especially with a transplanted 302 or 351... both are decent designs and have more to give. From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Thu May 27 22:43:50 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 18:43:50 -0400 Subject: Need help with Bosch part no. Message-ID: I have access to a box full of Euro regulators at a US envirnomental affairs site. The Euro regs have atmospheric(boost) and vacuum ports The main diff. it seems in regualtors is spring and heater ratings for cold start. You can adjust cold and hot pressures with a BFH or similiar hammer. alex > Hi List > > I would need some hwlp with a Bosch part number - it is a (special) fuel > pressure regulator from a 1979 (ish) Saab 99 Turbo (K-jetronic). Looks as > your normal pressure regulator, but I suspect it should reference to boost, > but I'm not sure, and don't know the "rate" (boost vs fuel pressure). > > The part number is 0 280 160 208 , stamped under that is 822. > > From nacelp at bright.net Thu May 27 23:10:21 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:10:21 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: From: Todd....!! Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? | I'm TOTALLY interested in turbo(s), WITH INTERCOOLING! | Intercoolin is a must in these days of enlightment n all... Not really just one way to do something. Grumpy From mail at darkstar.mv.com Thu May 27 23:25:23 1999 From: mail at darkstar.mv.com (Peter D. Hipson) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:25:23 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: Careful, that's very close to check kiting... A federal offence, btw. At 12:37 PM 5/27/99 -0700, you wrote: > >> Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in >> several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan >> using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit >> it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... >> >> Then mak 2 or 3 payments on each 'loan' over a 6 week period using the >> $3,000 'loan' money for payment money, then go back within about 6 weeks >> or so and pay all of em off, then ask for a signature loan from each >> bank for about the same amount...(signature meaning NO COLLATERAL!) and >> do the same thing with that signature loan money... This will build >> credit with the bank(s) as well as a relationship with em... > >Wow! I'm looking into buying some land. If the loan officers in >Houston are this stupid, maybe I should get a loan there. > > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon From fluffy at snurgle.org Thu May 27 23:32:47 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:32:47 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: On Thu, 27 May 1999, Stegbauer, Michael wrote: > > Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in > > several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan > > using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit > > it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... A stunt like this will cost you a fortune in interest. However, it's mathematically sound. Basic economics class will demonstrate that exactly the same phenomenon is already at work and makes the banking system go. It is marginally useful for building credit references, but otherwise, won't do you much good. The credit bureaus know how much money you have loaned out total, and they know how many loans you have, too. And, of course, you have to pay the interest on the total amount you have borrowed whether it is in small or large lumps. From FHPSTANG1 at aol.com Thu May 27 23:40:36 1999 From: FHPSTANG1 at aol.com (FHPSTANG1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:40:36 -0400 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: First night at the track for the 2.3L Turbo (Originally MERKUR motor) 86/89 mustang. It kept running mid 15's. We discovered a burnt coil wire, and swapped one out with another car. It then ran high 14's. Best time so far 14.61 @ 93.9 Mph. The only mods so far are a free flowing exhaust (The muffler fell off), 16? of Cam retard, 10 initial spark timing, and 15psi boost. Shift points are at 6K rpm using a 4+1 (Straight Six 5 speed Manual tranny). Launches are at 4K. and this is on a peg legged 195/75R14 tire, 3.73 7.5" rear end. Other than that, the motor is STOCK.... LOL. What does a stock Merkur XR4Ti run? Or one with similar Mods.. I just would like to say thanks to the list members that have helped this project along the way. Total cost so far (Including price of car) is $600. Not bad.. $600 running 14's. Next I will be working on my 79 Twin Turbo 5.0 EFI project, and I know I will need help with that one! John Miller 91 FHP Special Service 86/89 stang & 2.3L Turbo Merkur motor Hybrid 84 GT350 5.0 T-Top 79 Twin Turbo EFI 5.0 PROJECT From dzorde at erggroup.com Fri May 28 00:24:19 1999 From: dzorde at erggroup.com (dzorde at erggroup.com) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 20:24:19 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps Message-ID: Dave, its a Fiat 903cc, 4cyl, bore/stroke=65.6mmx69mm, 5 port alloy head, max power rpm=8000. did some measurements last night. Chamber volume=21cc, deck height=0.889mm, headgasket=66.7mmx1.6mm (uncompressed). In this configuration I can only bring compression back to around 8.8:1 (9.5:1 std), and I guess with a compressed head gasket this will be closer to 8.9:1. As I'm not ready to get into any machine work I'll take the chance and see how it goes at this compression, if I have to water inject it as well so be it. I just need to get the car running well enough for me to start on the fuel injection side of things. Although this will be a dedicated race car it would be nice to just run on 96 leaded, but if I have to mix Toluene in it and bring it up I can do that, or i can just run avgas (which according to CAMS is 106 octane in OZ). Anyway for something completely different and efi related, a thread a while ago was boosting fuel pump voltage for increased flow. Well I may have a very simple solution for those interested. Found this by pure accident. 2 weeks ago my fuel pump was very noisy and the frequency of the noise was going up and down and the car was running excessively rich (4km/litre). Anyway it turned out the alternator was pumping out 16.5V sometimes dropping back to 14V as it should. Problem turned out to be a dodgy connection where the wire for the charge light plugs on. Now it would seem that floating this connection caused the alternator to increase output voltage, so maybe a simple switch in line disconnecting this pin when you need that extra fuel pressure. Any explanation ? Dan dzorde at erggroup.com Keep Me Posted. What is CID? Qty Cyl? Bore size? Alum Head? RPM at max Pwr? All and more contribute, but found 8:1 lowest practical. May need to mix race fuel 30% for over 12 psi tho. TurboDave From shannen at grolen.com Fri May 28 02:06:35 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:06:35 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > yes I just waltzed through a Snap-On truck for 10 min, $300 later... > they do have a nice set of long bottom tap things made for this purpose, > sort of a thread chaser. > > their handy magnetic light is $75, I 'd hate to ask what the vac cleaner is. > Think it's about the same. The dedicated guys just look at the monthly payments. ; ) Shannen From javer96 at snowcrest.net Fri May 28 02:27:40 1999 From: javer96 at snowcrest.net (Vance Rose) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:27:40 -0400 Subject: 1961 Corvette TPI Conversion Message-ID: At 11:24 PM 5/26/1999 -0500, you wrote: >>>> Hello, I am brand new to the list so please let me know if I am outside protocol. I have scanned some of the archives and it certainly looks as though there is a wealth of information and experience in the members of this list. I have a 1961 Corvette with a 350 and a 9.5 to 1 compression ratio and race ported 76cc heads that I am converting to a 91 TPI setup. I have the stock manifold, runners, throttle body and plenum but no fuel rails. I just got a set of 305 injectors from a 86 Firebird on e-bay. I have no fuel rail. I was considering building one using some bulk fuel rail from Arizona Speed and Marine. $36.00 for 6 feet. I have no computer or harness. What is the best way to proceed from here. I certainly don't want to build a leaky fuel rail and risk burning up my car but I do enjoy doing as much as I can myself. Any suggestions or assistance would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dan Plaskett <<<<<<<< Hi Dan The harnesses and ecm {730} can come from a v-6 car, just need to use a v-8 memcal. The wiring diagram from a 91 Camaro is at the ftp. Vance PS: i'm also in need of a fuel rail. Also have a vette fuel rail that i would like to trade for a Camaro one. From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 28 02:39:33 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:39:33 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: My first house was red, and had the address Snap-On, and had drawers Dopey | > yes I just waltzed through a Snap-On truck for 10 min, $300 later... | > they do have a nice set of long bottom tap things made for this purpose, | > sort of a thread chaser. | > their handy magnetic light is $75, I 'd hate to ask what the vac cleaner is. | Think it's about the same. The dedicated guys just look at the | monthly payments. ; ) | Shannen From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Fri May 28 03:46:26 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:46:26 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: On Thu, 27 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > My first house was red, and had the address Snap-On, and had drawers > Dopey > And it had a mortgage... From ECMnut at aol.com Fri May 28 04:07:17 1999 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:07:17 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: I never really thought much about it till now, but there SURE IS a lot of chrome goodies on those Snap-On trucks. Must be lots of red houses with the same address out there.. MV > > My first house was red, and had the address Snap-On, and had drawers > > Dopey > > > And it had a mortgage... From nwester at eidnet.org Fri May 28 04:18:14 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:18:14 -0400 Subject: 94 Truck problem solved Message-ID: Carl, After reading the rest of the emails (700+ after my long weekend away) the fix showed up. Had a hunch it was the "mechanical" end of things...good you found the problem... Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- From: EFISYSTEMS at aol.com To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: gmecm at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 9:53 PM Subject: 94 Truck problem solved >HI Everyone, > I first want to thank everyone that took the time to help diagnose >this thing. What struck me was someone who said to check the >basics.......Sometimes people like us get so involved in finding an efi >problem that we do forget the basics......my biggest problem was I did not >talk to the customer long enough,,,,,,to find out the problem started almost >a year ago but just recently became severe.......well I did find the root of >the problem during my initial scan.....when key on was applied with engine >not running and fuel pressure came up...fuel was blowing by one of the TB >injectors and after disassembly discovered bad o-ring.....replaced and no >more fuel leak.....still engine would run ok for a few seconds but would >start running rich......had already done a compression test but turned out >ok........I won't bore you guys with the details but I had to start thinking >back what I would do if this had a carburetor on it,,,,and since I had >verified fuel and spark it must be mechanical......so looked back over my >compression chart and noticed #3 was the lowest cylinder so I checked it >again and now was even lower, so checked the one next to it to verify it >wasn't lower due to temp,,,,,no it was the same so re-checked the #3 in case >I just hadn't cranked it enough times......guess what now it's 0 >pressure......now can assume broken valve spring or sticking valve.....remove >valve cover and check....no broken valve spring but intake valve is stuck >down.....remove rockers and tap top of valve with hammer and... "pling"... >valve comes up......solution, leaking injector, over a period of a year, has >built up excessive carbon on top of intake valves and is now causing them to >stick open randomly.......so anyway,,,those that want can sit back and point >at the screen and laugh.....I am.......it was actually a good road trip >looking back on it......cya later >-Carl Summers > From nwester at eidnet.org Fri May 28 04:22:28 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:22:28 -0400 Subject: Clues Needed Message-ID: Using your trigger mode to "synch" is good for checking cam/crank sensors and calculating timing chain stretch from the offset in the signal. Check the Fluke website for some easy, simple explanations and check out Jorge Menchu's website--search out "AESwave"--he's got some presets software for the Fluke Scopemeters. (Free stuff) Really makes the FLuke 97a user friendly for those less experienced. Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- From: Ord Millar To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 10:15 AM Subject: Re: Clues Needed >+/- internal - usually means triggers off the 50 or 60hz ac supply, either >on the rising or falling zero volt cross. (could mean that the trigger is >extracted from the signal input in some cases) >+/- external - triggers off the the sense lead, either on the rising or >falling edge. There should be a setting for level - whenever the input >voltages cross this level the scope makes a trace. >Auto - just triggers as soon as one h-sweep is finished. >When using a seperate trigger, hook it to something that's in sync with what >you want to measure - think of it like a timing light. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bruce Plecan >To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 11:05 AM >Subject: Clues Needed > > >>Being new to the scope world, and after reading a scope manual, I'm still >at >>a lose, and hope someone could clear these meanings up for me. >> When using the triggering mode selection there are these options. >>Auto >>+ Internal >>- Internal >>+External >>-External >>Auto-seems to mean that the pulses are displayed as they occur, and the >>trigger >> sense lead need not be connected. >>ALSO, for these 4 other options where would one hook the sense lead to. >>Any help here appreciated. >>Bruce >> Happy used to, really chase the skirts. >> But, having visited Scotland last weekend, has left him confused...... >> >> > > From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Fri May 28 05:08:59 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:08:59 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 1999 ECMnut at aol.com wrote: > I never really thought much about it till now, but there > SURE IS a lot of chrome goodies on those Snap-On trucks. > Must be lots of red houses with the same address out there.. > MV > > > > My first house was red, and had the address Snap-On, and had drawers > > > Dopey > > > > > And it had a mortgage... > If you watch Biznews at all, you will see the SnapOn has bought many companies, small and large, and is set to buy even more. I assume the money is coming from one mechanic at a time... From rudi at vnet.net Fri May 28 05:17:33 1999 From: rudi at vnet.net (Rudi Machilek) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:17:33 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps Message-ID: I used to run an E-sports 850. 850's were notorious for burning the center main and #3 rod. That and a lack of an oil filter (OK the centrifugal inside the crank pulley did sort-of work) made for one weak bottom end. There was an external oiling mod that took oil from the head and flowed through a hose to a fitting and hole drilled trough the side of the block into the oil galley above the center main. Someone with Abarth experience might be able to tell you the exact point. The heads will likely need to be o-ringed. Running 11.5:1 we blew head gaskets regularly. We modified one head to accept 4 Mikuni carbs. With 14 cm or so stacks and tuned exhaust, it ran quite nicely. Adding injectors to the Mikunis would be great. You could also add injectors into the log manifold directly above the intakes. The original head with the center mounted Weber did not flow well (or evenly) at all. The #4 cylinder ran extremely lean. With injectors mounted directly to the head, I am nor sure how you could even that out. Oil provides a great deal of cooling in that engine. Abarth had a mode for an external oil filter and oil cooling. A must for HO operation. The 843cc engines had a finned cast aluminum oil pan that cooled better than the later stamped steel pan. Enough rambling, good luck with your project. Rudi Machilek 90 Camaro TBI 93 T-bird TPI 86 Suburban, project conversion to TBI Original Message Dave, its a Fiat 903cc, 4cyl, bore/stroke=65.6mmx69mm, 5 port alloy head, max power rpm=8000. did some measurements last night. Chamber volume=21cc, deck height=0.889mm, headgasket=66.7mmx1.6mm (uncompressed). In this configuration I can only bring compression back to around 8.8:1 (9.5:1 std), and I guess with a compressed head gasket this will be closer to 8.9:1. As I'm not ready to get into any machine work I'll take the chance and see how it goes at this compression, if I have to water inject it as well so be it. I just need to get the car running well enough for me to start on the fuel injection side of things. Although this will be a dedicated race car it would be nice to just run on 96 leaded, but if I have to mix Toluene in it and bring it up I can do that, or i can just run avgas (which according to CAMS is 106 octane in OZ). From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 28 05:39:33 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:39:33 -0400 Subject: Diesel Mods Message-ID: Anyone here familiar with the 99 Dodge Ram Cummins Turbo Diesel? Looking to see what stock boost is and what a safe "modified" boost level would be, along with any other mods for it. Thanks, Dave =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From zxv at istar.ca Fri May 28 05:49:34 1999 From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 01:49:34 -0400 Subject: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: I know this is NC but I'm just amazed at some feedback/backgrounds members can relate back so here goes. (plus I know theirs several owners of possible donors on these lists) A fella from Detroit called me up this eve. on a net tip from a friend that I'd checked out swapping a 'vette posi into a Datsun Z car. Neat to hear his name when he intro'd as I knew it immediately as a fella that had a gorgeous older Z in Hotrod a year ago April or May as an import w/ domestic muscle feature. Anyhow, we were trying to figure out how one could fabricate 'telescoping' halfshaft for such a swap (he thought I'd solved this but it hadn't even occurred to me yet). Vette's (I'm not v. familiar w/ their setup) have fixed length halfshafts and our Z's all have compressible telescoping halfshafts and he hasn't been able to find a shop that has a clue on fabricating anything similar. Anyone w/ ideers on this one? He also mentioned that a Viper rear end looked a lot easier to transplant d/2 it's OEM dimensions ('vette unit needs narrowing etc he said) but he only found one locally available for big bucks. I've got nil exposure to other makes etc but thought some BMW's or Mercedes (or any other) might have feasible donor diff's for this swap as well?? Basically he's looking for an ~8.25" or larger ring gear posi pumpkin w/ low ratios (~3 or even less). He said the viper ratio is 3.07, no ideer if other ratios were available? Dana 60 'vette units only go down to 3.07 and he's at 3.15 know so that's not much gain for him but he's still interested in that step if it's all that's available. So any ideas/thoughts at all on the halfshaft fabrication (other donor telescoping parts? our Z ones are too weak for him), other donor diffs w/ any ratios, and lastly any sources for the viper rear's or others suggested w/ any ~ costs would be great. He's not on the 'net so I want to accumulate what I can before phoning back etc. PS he runs high 10's in the 1/4 in street trim w/ A/C and a fully insulated booming slick car that weighs in at 2600lbs wet w/ no driver that also sees track roadracing several times a year. A seriously cool ride I hope to see in person some day. Just trying to spread the fun . Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 28 07:16:00 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 03:16:00 -0400 Subject: Ram Diesels Message-ID: Well, Just got some cool info on the 99 dodge Cummins Turbo diesel... It runs 16.3:1 compression, 5.9L inline 6 4 valve per cylinder. Stock boost is 18psi from the turbo, upgrades seem to all state they push the boost to 35-40PSI (DAMN!!!) and up the fuel delivery... EGT's run 1150 to 1300 degrees at these levels, which is near stock temps. HP is bumped to 260 and torque is pushed to 590+ Lb/ft!!! =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From gderian at oh.verio.com Fri May 28 12:08:26 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:08:26 -0400 Subject: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: Those old Datsuns used regular U-joints and ball splines to accommodate the length change. All front wheel drive and independent rear suspension rear wheel drive cars use halfshafts that accommodate length change. Its done in the joint itself. Typically, the outer joint is a CV type (Rzeppa) which can handle high angles but no length variance, and the inner joint is a tripode or similar that can handle only a small angle change but also some length change. These types of joints would require different flanges on your hubs. To get sliding spline joints, visit your local bearing/power transmission shop. Several manufacturers make sliding spline shafts for industrial machinery. Gary Derian > I know this is NC but I'm just amazed at some feedback/backgrounds members > can relate back so here goes. (plus I know theirs several owners of > possible donors on these lists) > > A fella from Detroit called me up this eve. on a net tip from a friend that > I'd checked out swapping a 'vette posi into a Datsun Z car. Neat to hear > his name when he intro'd as I knew it immediately as a fella that had a > gorgeous older Z in Hotrod a year ago April or May as an import w/ domestic > muscle feature. Anyhow, we were trying to figure out how one could > fabricate 'telescoping' halfshaft for such a swap (he thought I'd solved > this but it hadn't even occurred to me yet). Vette's (I'm not v. familiar > w/ their setup) have fixed length halfshafts and our Z's all have > compressible telescoping halfshafts and he hasn't been able to find a shop > that has a clue on fabricating anything similar. Anyone w/ ideers on this > one? He also mentioned that a Viper rear end looked a lot easier to > transplant d/2 it's OEM dimensions ('vette unit needs narrowing etc he > said) but he only found one locally available for big bucks. I've got nil > exposure to other makes etc but thought some BMW's or Mercedes (or any > other) might have feasible donor diff's for this swap as well?? Basically > he's looking for an ~8.25" or larger ring gear posi pumpkin w/ low ratios > (~3 or even less). He said the viper ratio is 3.07, no ideer if other > ratios were available? Dana 60 'vette units only go down to 3.07 and he's > at 3.15 know so that's not much gain for him but he's still interested in > that step if it's all that's available. > > So any ideas/thoughts at all on the halfshaft fabrication (other donor > telescoping parts? our Z ones are too weak for him), other donor diffs w/ > any ratios, and lastly any sources for the viper rear's or others suggested > w/ any ~ costs would be great. He's not on the 'net so I want to > accumulate what I can before phoning back etc. > > PS he runs high 10's in the 1/4 in street trim w/ A/C and a fully insulated > booming slick car that weighs in at 2600lbs wet w/ no driver that also sees > track roadracing several times a year. A seriously cool ride I hope to see > in person some day. Just trying to spread the fun . > > Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada > > '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR > Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the > straights > > mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 > http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml > http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a > Z belongs From pford at qnx.com Fri May 28 12:41:17 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:41:17 -0400 Subject: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: Previously, you (Ross Corrigan) wrote: > I know this is NC but I'm just amazed at some feedback/backgrounds members > can relate back so here goes. (plus I know theirs several owners of > possible donors on these lists) > > A fella from Detroit called me up this eve. on a net tip from a friend that > I'd checked out swapping a 'vette posi into a Datsun Z car. Neat to hear > his name when he intro'd as I knew it immediately as a fella that had a > gorgeous older Z in Hotrod a year ago April or May as an import w/ domestic > muscle feature. Anyhow, we were trying to figure out how one could > fabricate 'telescoping' halfshaft for such a swap (he thought I'd solved > this but it hadn't even occurred to me yet). Vette's (I'm not v. familiar > w/ their setup) have fixed length halfshafts and our Z's all have > compressible telescoping halfshafts and he hasn't been able to find a shop > that has a clue on fabricating anything similar. how about a fwd half shaft most have a double offset joint on the inboard end. put one of those on either end of a shaft?? > I've got nil > exposure to other makes etc but thought some BMW's or Mercedes (or any > other) might have feasible donor diff's for this swap as well?? Basically > he's looking for an ~8.25" or larger ring gear posi pumpkin w/ low ratios > (~3 or even less). He said the viper ratio is 3.07, no ideer if other Thats aroud the same as a subaru > ratios were available? Dana 60 'vette units only go down to 3.07 and he's > at 3.15 know so that's not much gain for him but he's still interested in > that step if it's all that's available. > > > PS he runs high 10's in the 1/4 in street trim w/ A/C and a fully insulated > booming slick car that weighs in at 2600lbs wet w/ no driver that also sees > track roadracing several times a year. A seriously cool ride I hope to see > in person some day. Just trying to spread the fun . > > Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada > > '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR > Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the > straights > > mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 > http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml > http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a > Z belongs -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Fri May 28 13:47:27 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:47:27 -0400 Subject: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > Those old Datsuns used regular U-joints and ball splines to accommodate the > length change. All front wheel drive and independent rear suspension rear > wheel drive cars use halfshafts that accommodate length change. Its done in > the joint itself. Typically, the outer joint is a CV type (Rzeppa) which > can handle high angles but no length variance, and the inner joint is a > tripode or similar that can handle only a small angle change but also some > length change. These types of joints would require different flanges on > your hubs. > Splines tend to lock up under the high torques that half shafts can see. This effectively locks the suspension, although the effect of this varies depending on the design of the suspension and the amount of torque. A plunge joint is less likely to do this. Thats why the old Mopar Ball& Trunnion joint was used as an inner joint on half-shafts for Indy, etc. A tripod would be better, of course [assuming it has sufficient strength] > > other) might have feasible donor diff's for this swap as well?? Basically > > he's looking for an ~8.25" or larger ring gear posi pumpkin w/ low ratios > > (~3 or even less). He said the viper ratio is 3.07, no ideer if other > > ratios were available? Dana 60 'vette units only go down to 3.07 and he's > > at 3.15 know so that's not much gain for him but he's still interested in > > that step if it's all that's available. > > The Viper uses a 44 Dana\Spicer center section. Older Jags used a similar 44 center section in their IRS vehicles. Corvette never used any Dana 60s. You can swap in most other 44 R&Ps in any of the above 44s. If you use a 3.73 or lower [3.9, 4.09, 4.56 etc] you will have to change the carrier. From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Fri May 28 14:02:29 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:02:29 -0400 Subject: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: Contact Six States Distributors. They helped an acquaintance (Note I did not say friend, I don't have the details on the swap but I did see pics of the finished project :) put an IRS in the back of a Toyota 4X4. http://www.gowheels.com/sixstates/ They made a couple miniature driveshafts with several inches of travel. Depending on the mounting configuration i.e.. U-joint type... This might work fairly well in your case as well. Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Ross Corrigan To: kv at us.ibm.com ; nw-f-body at f-body.org ; f-body-classic at bb-elec.com Date: Friday, May 28, 1999 5:00 AM Subject: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? >I know this is NC but I'm just amazed at some feedback/backgrounds members >can relate back so here goes. (plus I know theirs several owners of >possible donors on these lists) > >A fella from Detroit called me up this eve. on a net tip from a friend that >I'd checked out swapping a 'vette posi into a Datsun Z car. Neat to hear >his name when he intro'd as I knew it immediately as a fella that had a >gorgeous older Z in Hotrod a year ago April or May as an import w/ domestic >muscle feature. Anyhow, we were trying to figure out how one could >fabricate 'telescoping' halfshaft for such a swap (he thought I'd solved >this but it hadn't even occurred to me yet). Vette's (I'm not v. familiar >w/ their setup) have fixed length halfshafts and our Z's all have >compressible telescoping halfshafts and he hasn't been able to find a shop >that has a clue on fabricating anything similar. Anyone w/ ideers on this >one? He also mentioned that a Viper rear end looked a lot easier to >transplant d/2 it's OEM dimensions ('vette unit needs narrowing etc he >said) but he only found one locally available for big bucks. I've got nil >exposure to other makes etc but thought some BMW's or Mercedes (or any >other) might have feasible donor diff's for this swap as well?? Basically >he's looking for an ~8.25" or larger ring gear posi pumpkin w/ low ratios >(~3 or even less). He said the viper ratio is 3.07, no ideer if other >ratios were available? Dana 60 'vette units only go down to 3.07 and he's >at 3.15 know so that's not much gain for him but he's still interested in >that step if it's all that's available. > >So any ideas/thoughts at all on the halfshaft fabrication (other donor >telescoping parts? our Z ones are too weak for him), other donor diffs w/ >any ratios, and lastly any sources for the viper rear's or others suggested >w/ any ~ costs would be great. He's not on the 'net so I want to >accumulate what I can before phoning back etc. > >PS he runs high 10's in the 1/4 in street trim w/ A/C and a fully insulated >booming slick car that weighs in at 2600lbs wet w/ no driver that also sees >track roadracing several times a year. A seriously cool ride I hope to see >in person some day. Just trying to spread the fun . > >Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada > > '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR >Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the >straights > >mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 >http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml >http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a >Z belongs > From donbe at microsoft.com Fri May 28 14:29:28 1999 From: donbe at microsoft.com (Don Berry) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:29:28 -0400 Subject: [nw] NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: What about the front drive shaft from a 4x4 truck. I'm sure that the 1 ton stuff would be heavy enough. -----Original Message----- From: Ross Corrigan [mailto:zxv at istar.ca] Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 10:49 PM To: kv at us.ibm.com; nw-f-body at f-body.org; f-body-classic at bb-elec.com Subject: [nw] NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? I know this is NC but I'm just amazed at some feedback/backgrounds members can relate back so here goes. (plus I know theirs several owners of possible donors on these lists) A fella from Detroit called me up this eve. on a net tip from a friend that I'd checked out swapping a 'vette posi into a Datsun Z car. Neat to hear his name when he intro'd as I knew it immediately as a fella that had a gorgeous older Z in Hotrod a year ago April or May as an import w/ domestic muscle feature. Anyhow, we were trying to figure out how one could fabricate 'telescoping' halfshaft for such a swap (he thought I'd solved this but it hadn't even occurred to me yet). Vette's (I'm not v. familiar w/ their setup) have fixed length halfshafts and our Z's all have compressible telescoping halfshafts and he hasn't been able to find a shop that has a clue on fabricating anything similar. Anyone w/ ideers on this one? He also mentioned that a Viper rear end looked a lot easier to transplant d/2 it's OEM dimensions ('vette unit needs narrowing etc he said) but he only found one locally available for big bucks. I've got nil exposure to other makes etc but thought some BMW's or Mercedes (or any other) might have feasible donor diff's for this swap as well?? Basically he's looking for an ~8.25" or larger ring gear posi pumpkin w/ low ratios (~3 or even less). He said the viper ratio is 3.07, no ideer if other ratios were available? Dana 60 'vette units only go down to 3.07 and he's at 3.15 know so that's not much gain for him but he's still interested in that step if it's all that's available. So any ideas/thoughts at all on the halfshaft fabrication (other donor telescoping parts? our Z ones are too weak for him), other donor diffs w/ any ratios, and lastly any sources for the viper rear's or others suggested w/ any ~ costs would be great. He's not on the 'net so I want to accumulate what I can before phoning back etc. PS he runs high 10's in the 1/4 in street trim w/ A/C and a fully insulated booming slick car that weighs in at 2600lbs wet w/ no driver that also sees track roadracing several times a year. A seriously cool ride I hope to see in person some day. Just trying to spread the fun . Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From jsnyder at microserve.net Fri May 28 14:55:06 1999 From: jsnyder at microserve.net (Jay Snyder) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:55:06 -0400 Subject: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: BMW differentials (all IRS) are availible in: 2.79,2.93,3.15,3.23,3.25,3.45,3.64,3.73,4.10,4.45 ratios. For a car with as much power as that Z has, you'll want one from one of the higher performance BMWs liek the 540i, M5, and M3. I believe the '94-'96 540i had a 2.93 rear. The BMW USA webpage (www.bmwusa.com) specs the new 540i as having a 2.81 final drive. Good luck, Jay '67 Firebird 400 Conv '89 BMW 325i From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 15:41:52 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:41:52 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: Hello Michael, Stupid meaning what? Do you believe that a bank giving a 'loan' to someone who puts the exact same amount as the loan in a savings account at that bank for collateral as bing STUPID? They have NO risk whatsoever on that loan, plus they get the interest from the loan when all is said and done... That' sounds like a no risk type of loan to me as far as the bank's concerned.... I may not have conveyed the theory well.... ANY bank will give a loan for cash as long as you give them that same amount of cash in an account.... I'll let ya know how it goes.... The banker may ask why you would even want a loan if you already have the money, all ya have to tell em is that you have a hard time saving money, and that if it were in the form of a loan that you would have more of a reason to save the money, or somethin like that... Simple... Easy... Works... Purpose is to build repore and confidence with the lender... LATER! Todd.... ----------- Stegbauer, Michael wrote: > > > Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in > > several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan > > using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit > > it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... > > > > Then mak 2 or 3 payments on each 'loan' over a 6 week period using the > > $3,000 'loan' money for payment money, then go back within about 6 weeks > > or so and pay all of em off, then ask for a signature loan from each > > bank for about the same amount...(signature meaning NO COLLATERAL!) and > > do the same thing with that signature loan money... This will build > > credit with the bank(s) as well as a relationship with em... > > Wow! I'm looking into buying some land. If the loan officers in > Houston are this stupid, maybe I should get a loan there. From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 15:41:55 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:41:55 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: OUCH! Well Fred, There may be more 400's BB Mopes than 440's in certain junkyards... Which would you prefer? I may get a 400 with my 401K money I'm about to get back... The head of a Mopar weigh abotu 67 lbs each, without spark plugs, with everything else...except valve covers... That's about 134 lbs. just in the heads, the short block weighs what at least 200 lbs. Will have to weigh my lil 383 short block, or maybe my buddy's 440 short block in his 70 tubbed Cuda. This Cuda's just sittin in my garage with the 440 6-pak short block sittin in the engine bay with no trans or heads! It has the motor mounts connected and the back of the engine's just sittin on the steering linkage, I believe! OUCH! Anyone know how much a 440 short blockeven weighs? More than a s.b. chev, less than a 460 ford? maybe? Later! Todd....!! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > rollers themselves! ALL 16 of em! > > Its actually a good design - less parts, no pushrods to bend or wear, > yada yada. > > > > That's my current delimma with my Eclipse, the lil adjusters are > > > supposedly $20 each! Times 16 of em puts me WAY over budget for that > > get a used set of heads from the junkyard for $50 a pop after > listening to the car. Also, have you checked aftermarket parts for > your heads? Might be less expensive than Mitsu parts, though not > always. Check around! > > > ENTIRE friggin 440 didn't even cost more than $135 from the junk yard! > > See, I need to find a junkyard with a supply of decent, running > 440's. Up here in CT old dodges (especially trucks) are lifted right > off the flatbed/tow truck right into the squisher. > > Though, they have four (not one, FOUR) yugo's in the back. Can't > imagine why. > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 15:42:00 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:42:00 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Hi David, Thanks for the correction on the hp figures! I think I'm stuck in the profit margin calculation mode?, whereas a 30% Profit margin would be 200hp/(1-.3) Which STILL doesn't quite make it to 300hp, but 284 hp or so! Matter of fact, just yesterday, at the dollar store, I laid out $5 worth of quarters, grouping the quarters in groups of FIVE! What's that? Should've been in groups of 4, ya know? Was corrected by the cashier.. who correctly grouped the quarters in groups of FOUR! LOL As for forged vs. cast cranks n rods... Whilst in Louisville, Kentuckey a few summers ago, QUITE a few, back in college, I went by a steel plant... they had a bunch a cranks that they were creating out of RAW MOLTEN STEEL!! COOL? Anyhoo they said that the cranks were for Toyota Camry's! They were FORGED!!! NEW CAMRY'S, at least about 5 to 8 years ago had FORGED CRANKS, didn't see any rods lyin around.... So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, wheras most others had meager cast units.... I've heard that most s.b. chev 4-bolt main blocks had forged cranks, but this hasn't been sildified/proven yet to me anyways, anybody? I'm Just a wonderinnnnnnn fooooooooooooooo.............!! LATER! Todd....!! David A. Cooley wrote: > > > However, my STOCK 440 can put out well over double it's stock power > > rating with NO mods except the blower... What about that? Are is that > > like comparin apples n oranges or somethin.... or tin cans vs. aluminum > > cans...? lol > > > > However, even with only a 30% increase in HP from 200 hp to 300 hp this > > would bring the e.t.'s from mid 14's to mid 12's, a GREAT improvement! > > and that may even make the prowler a Viper contender, at least in the > > 1/4 mile, ey? > > 30% more from a 200HP engine would be 260... 50% more would be 300 > > > > > I think the bottom end would hold double... > > > > In the old days, the big ol muscle v-8's could hold around 3 or more > > times the stock advertisedd HP!! I'm pretty sure the newer engine's can > > hold at least DOUBLE, don't ya think? > > > > Nope... They try so hard to cut costs that MOST engines are built at the > ragged edge of holding together anymore... > A good performance engine now adays may hold another 50% but not double. > > > Wonder if the Prowlers crank and/or rods are forged? > > Nope... It's a plain vanilla V6 that they also put in their FWD cars. > > > > > Just look at what the shtang dudes are doin with BONE STOCK 5.0 engines! > > with the paxtons and s, t, u, v, w, x, y, & z trim centrif. > > superchargers.... > > > > That 5.0 is a 30 year old design... The new 4.6 won't hold much more than > 30% over stock without new crank, rods etc, and the 4.6 has been the ONLY V8 > stang motor for the last 2-3 years. > > > Stock the stangy pulls a MAX of 225 hp at the flywheel, these dudes are > > pushin AT LEAST double that with these chargers! Ya know! > > > > That's what they'd like you to believe... Most are lucky to get 300HP with > TONS of cash dumped into the car. I know plenty of Stang owners that would > love to see 400HP without buying a complete new engine. From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 15:42:04 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:42:04 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: Hi Grumpy, In mine eyes, I believe buildin a f.i.'s turbo'd v8 WIHTOUT an intercooler is like buildin a normally aspirated v8 with only 4 pistons.... The benefits of the turbo are less than half of that if designed WITH an intercooler.... Plus the turbo and engine incur WAY more thermal stress and are short lived in comparison... It's like building a car without a radiator.... A watercooled housing is a big help as far as oil breakdown within the turbo bushing/bearing area...where most of the oil breakdown occurs in a turbo engine due to the intense heat exposure in this area... LATER! Todd.... http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Bruce Plecan wrote: > > From: Todd....!! > Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? > > | I'm TOTALLY interested in turbo(s), WITH INTERCOOLING! > | Intercoolin is a must in these days of enlightment n all... > > Not really just one way to do something. > Grumpy From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 15:42:07 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:42:07 -0400 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: That's QUICK for ANY car John! Good Deal man! Can't WIAT to see the specs on your twin turbo proj as well!! ALSO, would ya happen to have the rest of your best time slip handy? I'd like to see the 60ft., 330ft., etc. times and mph... for comparison reasons... I have a car that has ran a best of 14.6 at 89 mph....would like to see the diff's... Thanks! LATER! Todd.... http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm ---------- FHPSTANG1 at aol.com wrote: > > First night at the track for the 2.3L Turbo (Originally MERKUR motor) 86/89 > mustang. It kept running mid 15's. We discovered a burnt coil wire, and > swapped one out with another car. It then ran high 14's. Best time so far > 14.61 @ 93.9 Mph. > > The only mods so far are a free flowing exhaust (The muffler fell off), 16? > of Cam retard, 10 initial spark timing, and 15psi boost. Shift points are at > 6K rpm using a 4+1 (Straight Six 5 speed Manual tranny). Launches are at 4K. > and this is on a peg legged 195/75R14 tire, 3.73 7.5" rear end. Other than > that, the motor is STOCK.... LOL. > > What does a stock Merkur XR4Ti run? Or one with similar Mods.. > > I just would like to say thanks to the list members that have helped this > project along the way. Total cost so far (Including price of car) is $600. > Not bad.. $600 running 14's. Next I will be working on my 79 Twin Turbo 5.0 > EFI project, and I know I will need help with that one! > > John Miller > 91 FHP Special Service > 86/89 stang & 2.3L Turbo Merkur motor Hybrid > 84 GT350 5.0 T-Top > 79 Twin Turbo EFI 5.0 PROJECT From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 15:42:12 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:42:12 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: If ya calulate the interest on a $1,000 loan with an APR of, what, 10% MAX. Multiply $1,000 by 10%, this equals $100, then divide the $100 by 12 months in a year, this gives ya about $10/mo interest MAX. The entire loan only lasts about 6 weeks so thats about $15 MAX for interest, however, since the loan is a SECURED loan SECURED with CASH MONEY in THEIR BANK, the interest rate should be less than a normal unsecured loans' interest would be... so the interest lost would be minimal... THEN we must look at the BIG picture, we're building a repore with a bank which in the end will allow us to borrow money thru unsecured loans, which will allow us to purchase propertis that we would otherwise be unable to purchase.... The siz week loan period is to get within the visible loan length range where the banks and other lending institution will notice the loans... Any shorter length than 6 weeks will go unnoticed by most banks... Then the SUPER big picture is to be able to fund a f.i.'d twin turbo 451/440 project for the Superbee.... which is why I'm here learning as much as I can before doin any buying or investing in parts..... Take it easy!, Sincerely, Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm William T Wilson wrote: > > On Thu, 27 May 1999, Stegbauer, Michael wrote: > > > > Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in > > > several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan > > > using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit > > > it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... > > A stunt like this will cost you a fortune in interest. However, it's > mathematically sound. Basic economics class will demonstrate that exactly > the same phenomenon is already at work and makes the banking system go. > > It is marginally useful for building credit references, but otherwise, > won't do you much good. The credit bureaus know how much money you have > loaned out total, and they know how many loans you have, too. And, of > course, you have to pay the interest on the total amount you have > borrowed whether it is in small or large lumps. From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 15:42:13 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:42:13 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: Borrowing money on borrowed money is not a federal offense man, but I may just be TOTALLY ignorant of most things...meaning that I don't know EVERYTHHING, hardly anything matter of fact... So, what's Check Kiting? Thanks! Todd....!! Peter D. Hipson wrote: > > Careful, that's very close to check kiting... A federal offence, btw. > > At 12:37 PM 5/27/99 -0700, you wrote: > > > >> Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in > >> several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan > >> using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit > >> it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... > >> > >> Then mak 2 or 3 payments on each 'loan' over a 6 week period using the > >> $3,000 'loan' money for payment money, then go back within about 6 weeks > >> or so and pay all of em off, then ask for a signature loan from each > >> bank for about the same amount...(signature meaning NO COLLATERAL!) and > >> do the same thing with that signature loan money... This will build > >> credit with the bank(s) as well as a relationship with em... > > > >Wow! I'm looking into buying some land. If the loan officers in > >Houston are this stupid, maybe I should get a loan there. > > > > > > > Thanks, > Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) > 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 15:42:15 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:42:15 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps Message-ID: FYI - I ran AVgas(Aviation fuel) right from outa the airplane fueler tanker (They DIDN'T USE THE GROUND STRAP FROM THE TANKER TO THE CAR, but DID on all the planes, that coulda hurt!) into my 73 Camaro with a 383 stroker, closed chambered small valve heads(1.94), Edelbrock tunnelram w/ dual 600 vac holleys, 4-speed, and 3.73 limited slip 10-bolt rear... was at about 10.5:1 compression... first 5 gallons in the new motor were AVGAS, as were the next few tanks.... kinda expensive... started mixin super and avgas, then went to straight superunleaded(93 octane)... Everyone told me it was only 100 octane, the exhaust smelled like race gas to me.... LATER! Todd.... dzorde at erggroup.com wrote: > > Dave, its a Fiat 903cc, 4cyl, bore/stroke=65.6mmx69mm, 5 port alloy head, max > power rpm=8000. did some measurements last night. Chamber volume=21cc, deck > height=0.889mm, headgasket=66.7mmx1.6mm (uncompressed). In this configuration I > can only bring compression back to around 8.8:1 (9.5:1 std), and I guess with a > compressed head gasket this will be closer to 8.9:1. As I'm not ready to get > into any machine work I'll take the chance and see how it goes at this > compression, if I have to water inject it as well so be it. I just need to get > the car running well enough for me to start on the fuel injection side of > things. Although this will be a dedicated race car it would be nice to just run > on 96 leaded, but if I have to mix Toluene in it and bring it up I can do that, > or i can just run avgas (which according to CAMS is 106 octane in OZ). > > Anyway for something completely different and efi related, a thread a while ago > was boosting fuel pump voltage for increased flow. Well I may have a very > simple solution for those interested. Found this by pure accident. 2 weeks ago > my fuel pump was very noisy and the frequency of the noise was going up and down > and the car was running excessively rich (4km/litre). Anyway it turned out the > alternator was pumping out 16.5V sometimes dropping back to 14V as it should. > Problem turned out to be a dodgy connection where the wire for the charge light > plugs on. > > Now it would seem that floating this connection caused the alternator to > increase output voltage, so maybe a simple switch in line disconnecting this pin > when you need that extra fuel pressure. Any explanation ? > > Dan dzorde at erggroup.com > > Keep Me Posted. What is CID? Qty Cyl? Bore size? Alum Head? RPM at max > Pwr? All and more contribute, but found 8:1 lowest practical. May need to > mix race fuel 30% for over 12 psi tho. > > > > TurboDave From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 15:42:21 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:42:21 -0400 Subject: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: OK Ross... In order to run under like 12's or so on most tracks, at least in the US, you can't even run an IRS rear end! How he's runnin 10's more tthan ONCE on any trrakc in America, if that's where he got the 10's at, is VERY RARE indeed! Maybe at an ALL Z car rod run at the strip or somethin, but NHRA rules are NHRA rules.... no matter what the occasion... Maybe I'm missing somethin...? For example, I MUST be missing some sorta loop hole, cuz a BONE STOCK Viper GTS was runnin in the 10.1xx at teh Houston Raceway park track justa few months ago at the Hennessey Viper Shootout where 26 Vipers turned out as well as one trailered Vette, which I didn't see come off the trailor the entire time... Looked GREAT though... Was red and had custom rims n all.. Before ya get your panties in a bunch, I must add that the 10 second Viper was runnin lil slicks in the rear and front runners up front, and had a 400 shot a NOS! and TWO(2) mechanics messin with the plugs to verify correct nos/a/f mixture... He 'said' that the whole engine was STOCK!! except the nos injectors, a course! Reason I tell ya this is cuz ALL the Vipers were IRS as they've always been and a LOT of em were under the times which normally require that the car NOT be equipped with IRS! But then again, MOST of em didn't have roll bars or other safety equipment that is required on ALL other cars including MINE... When I go to the track! Like a drive shaft loop! Man are they strict! Good for us, right? As for the rear end, I have a 3,000+ lb. 1972 Jaguar XJ6 with a 4 barrel 455 Buick in it, the rear end in it has held up to the meager low 14 second e.t.'s, but it's geared up for the 6-cylinder, probably closer to 4.x than 3.x:1.... ALSO, when lookin at the aprts holdin the wheel straight on that rear end, I am wonderin HOW it held 510+ ft. lb.s of torque at the track! I don't think I'll be puttin too sticky of tires on this baby! Hope I helped! ALSO, why doesn't the dude just use the Viper rear? The Viper rear IS a tid bit heavier than the Vette setup, however, the Viper rear holds MORE tire to the ground, thus more than compensating fo rhte excess weight of itself...according to an article that compared the New Vette to the NEW GTS.... Wasn't a good article for the Vette... I love BOTH and would drive either... Would REALLY like to get my hands on a Viper DEFENDER!! Cool? Later, Todd.... http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Ross Corrigan wrote: > > I know this is NC but I'm just amazed at some feedback/backgrounds members > can relate back so here goes. (plus I know theirs several owners of > possible donors on these lists) > > A fella from Detroit called me up this eve. on a net tip from a friend that > I'd checked out swapping a 'vette posi into a Datsun Z car. Neat to hear > his name when he intro'd as I knew it immediately as a fella that had a > gorgeous older Z in Hotrod a year ago April or May as an import w/ domestic > muscle feature. Anyhow, we were trying to figure out how one could > fabricate 'telescoping' halfshaft for such a swap (he thought I'd solved > this but it hadn't even occurred to me yet). Vette's (I'm not v. familiar > w/ their setup) have fixed length halfshafts and our Z's all have > compressible telescoping halfshafts and he hasn't been able to find a shop > that has a clue on fabricating anything similar. Anyone w/ ideers on this > one? He also mentioned that a Viper rear end looked a lot easier to > transplant d/2 it's OEM dimensions ('vette unit needs narrowing etc he > said) but he only found one locally available for big bucks. I've got nil > exposure to other makes etc but thought some BMW's or Mercedes (or any > other) might have feasible donor diff's for this swap as well?? Basically > he's looking for an ~8.25" or larger ring gear posi pumpkin w/ low ratios > (~3 or even less). He said the viper ratio is 3.07, no ideer if other > ratios were available? Dana 60 'vette units only go down to 3.07 and he's > at 3.15 know so that's not much gain for him but he's still interested in > that step if it's all that's available. > > So any ideas/thoughts at all on the halfshaft fabrication (other donor > telescoping parts? our Z ones are too weak for him), other donor diffs w/ > any ratios, and lastly any sources for the viper rear's or others suggested > w/ any ~ costs would be great. He's not on the 'net so I want to > accumulate what I can before phoning back etc. > > PS he runs high 10's in the 1/4 in street trim w/ A/C and a fully insulated > booming slick car that weighs in at 2600lbs wet w/ no driver that also sees > track roadracing several times a year. A seriously cool ride I hope to see > in person some day. Just trying to spread the fun . > > Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada > > '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR > Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the > straights > > mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 > http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml > http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a > Z belongs From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 15:49:30 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:49:30 -0400 Subject: EGT gauge installation/reasoning.... Message-ID: Someone posted a GREAT informative link about whree and why to install an EGT gauge... The link is http://www.myzero.com/gauges/egt.html The author states that if given a choice between having to choose between an EGT and an a/f meter, that he'd choose the EGT due to its ability to output the engine's CONDITION vs. the a/f ratio's mixture going into the engine... Sounds loogical to me.... I've seen an EGT on an aftermarket Banks turbo unit on a diesel truck of a buddy's Dad... Was pretty cool.. LATER! Todd.... From gderian at oh.verio.com Fri May 28 15:50:22 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:50:22 -0400 Subject: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: Right. I meant to say ball splines. Plain splines do lock up under torque. Gary Derian > > Splines tend to lock up under the high torques that half shafts can see. > This effectively locks the suspension, although the effect of this varies > depending on the design of the suspension and the amount of torque. A > plunge joint is less likely to do this. Thats why the old Mopar Ball& > Trunnion joint was used as an inner joint on half-shafts for Indy, etc. A > tripod would be better, of course [assuming it has sufficient strength] From cybercaf at magiclink.com Fri May 28 16:01:36 1999 From: cybercaf at magiclink.com (cybercaf at magiclink.com) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:01:36 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: See http://www.blueovalnews.com/new_ford_engine.htm for an interesting discussion of Ford's own opinion of the modular... and possible plans for the future. Mike J. Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > 30% more from a 200HP engine would be 260... 50% more would be 300 > > Maybe Todd and I should split a calculator :) > > > Nope... They try so hard to cut costs that MOST engines are built at the > > ragged edge of holding together anymore... > > I've learned this the hard way unfortunately. > > > 30% over stock without new crank, rods etc, and the 4.6 has been the ONLY V8 > > stang motor for the last 2-3 years. > > I actually like the motor... was going to use one in my mid-engine car > project, with a Paxton. Nice and simple. > > > TONS of cash dumped into the car. I know plenty of Stang owners that would > > love to see 400HP without buying a complete new engine. > > Not to be opposite, but I find that hard to believe, especially with a > transplanted 302 or 351... both are decent designs and have more to > give. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 28 16:19:51 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:19:51 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: At 09:49 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Borrowing money on borrowed money is not a federal offense man, but I >may just be TOTALLY ignorant of most things...meaning that I don't know >EVERYTHHING, hardly anything matter of fact... > >So, what's Check Kiting? That's where you write a check, buy something get cash back, deposit the cash in the bank, write another check etc... basically trying to write checks and deposit the money to stay ahead of all the checks because there isn't enough money in the account... A secured loan, if you take the security deposit out, as the original poster stated, violates the contract of the loan and puts you in default. the money has to stay there until the loan is paid off. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 28 16:25:48 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:25:48 -0400 Subject: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: >In order to run under like 12's or so on most tracks, at least in the >US, you can't even run an IRS rear end! And where in the NHRA rules does it state this? > >How he's runnin 10's more tthan ONCE on any trrakc in America, if that's >where he got the 10's at, is VERY RARE indeed! > Again, Show me the NHRA rule that states an IRS is not allowed if you go XX.XX or faster >Maybe at an ALL Z car rod run at the strip or somethin, but NHRA rules >are NHRA rules.... no matter what the occasion... > >Maybe I'm missing somethin...? > >For example, I MUST be missing some sorta loop hole, cuz a BONE STOCK >Viper GTS was runnin in the 10.1xx at teh Houston Raceway park track >justa few months ago at the Hennessey Viper Shootout where 26 Vipers >turned out as well as one trailered Vette, which I didn't see come off >the trailor the entire time... Looked GREAT though... Was red and had >custom rims n all.. > >Before ya get your panties in a bunch, I must add that the 10 second >Viper was runnin lil slicks in the rear and front runners up front, and >had a 400 shot a NOS! and TWO(2) mechanics messin with the plugs to >verify correct nos/a/f mixture... > That's not stock... Stock would have been without the Nitrous... The factory Viper Fuel pump will not handle fuel flow for 800HP... there had to be other aftermarket parts, and therefore was NOT stock. >He 'said' that the whole engine was STOCK!! except the nos injectors, a >course! > He lied... Double HP and it's bone stock... Crank and rods would have been all over the track Hennesey Motorsports builds vipers and in their advertisements, just to get to 600 HP they have to replace pistons, rods, crank etc. (It's on their web page!!) =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 28 16:29:13 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:29:13 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 12:34 PM Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? | Hi Grumpy, | In mine eyes, I believe buildin a f.i.'s turbo'd v8 WIHTOUT an | intercooler is like buildin a normally aspirated v8 with only 4 | pistons.... Need to open your eyes a tad farther. Some classes don't even allow for intercooling. | The benefits of the turbo are less than half of that if designed WITH an | intercooler.... Oh, Intercooler is just cooling intake charge, no one says you have to use an intercooler to cool the intake charge. | Plus the turbo and engine incur WAY more thermal stress and are short | lived in comparison... | It's like building a car without a radiator.... | A watercooled housing is a big help as far as oil breakdown within the | turbo bushing/bearing area...where most of the oil breakdown occurs in a | turbo engine due to the intense heat exposure in this area... Why?, have you researched or directly experimented with the water cooled center housings?. | LATER! | Todd.... | Bruce Plecan wrote: | > From: Todd....!! | > Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? | > | I'm TOTALLY interested in turbo(s), WITH INTERCOOLING! | > | Intercoolin is a must in these days of enlightment n all... | > Not really just one way to do something. | > Grumpy From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 28 16:29:23 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:29:23 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps Message-ID: At 09:55 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >FYI - I ran AVgas(Aviation fuel) right from outa the airplane fueler >tanker (They DIDN'T USE THE GROUND STRAP FROM THE TANKER TO THE CAR, but >DID on all the planes, that coulda hurt!) into my 73 Camaro with a 383 >stroker, closed chambered small valve heads(1.94), Edelbrock tunnelram >w/ dual 600 vac holleys, 4-speed, and 3.73 limited slip 10-bolt rear... >was at about 10.5:1 compression... first 5 gallons in the new motor were >AVGAS, as were the next few tanks.... kinda expensive... started mixin >super and avgas, then went to straight superunleaded(93 octane)... > >Everyone told me it was only 100 octane, the exhaust smelled like race >gas to me.... They don't rate AV gas octane the same as regular gas... 100LL av gas is about 105-110 octane in automotive terms... It also has MORE lead (even though it says low lead) than any automotive leaded fuel (Almost twice the amount) Check out the Gasoline FAQ on the net... Pretty good info there. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From spectro at ma.ultranet.com Fri May 28 16:37:30 1999 From: spectro at ma.ultranet.com (SPECTRO COATING CORP.) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:37:30 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: >Whilst in Louisville, Kentuckey a few summers ago, QUITE a few, back in >college, I went by a steel plant... they had a bunch a cranks that they >were creating out of RAW MOLTEN STEEL!! COOL? Anyhoo they said that >the cranks were for Toyota Camry's! They were FORGED!!! NEW CAMRY'S, >at least about 5 to 8 years ago had FORGED CRANKS, didn't see any rods >lyin around.... Toyota does know how to build engines... >So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's >and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, >wheras most others had meager cast units.... > >I've heard that most s.b. chev 4-bolt main blocks had forged cranks, but >this hasn't been sildified/proven yet to me anyways, anybody? > Actually - no don't bet on a 4 bolt having a forged crank unless... A. its an LT-1 (no, not the 90's kind - the 70's kind) or B. It's in a school bus (really!), or out of a medium duty truck. FWIW - Jason From mark.eidson at intel.com Fri May 28 16:50:47 1999 From: mark.eidson at intel.com (Eidson, Mark) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:50:47 -0400 Subject: Location of intake air temperature sensor Message-ID: Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and intercooled port injection system? me -----Original Message----- From: Frederic Breitwieser [mailto:frederic.breitwieser at xephic.dynip.com] Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 2:03 PM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion > Ok, I'll start! There is a certain responsibility with going first :) > I was mulling around a little idea I had about my Pontiac. It's in the > garage with no fenders, the 400 looks pretty bare, with no harness or > plumbing. I have a spare (used) turbo sitting there from my old Mustang > ('84 GT350, turbo4) and have been contemplating adding this along with efi. Its my school of thought to add the EFI first, get that running suitably, making sure your EFI configuration is upgradable to the additional boost, either by a larger MAF or a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor depending on your configuration. > Then I thought about a setup something like the original post about the > variable exhaust system. I was thinking about a relatively small turbo > driven by one bank, to get the boost rolling, then a pretty large turbo on > the other bank that would take over at higher rpm's. I didn't get into the > pro's and con's yet. I spent a lot of time with several friends of mine trying to achieve the best bottom end combined with an awesome top end on the Buick V6 twin-turbo. For scavaging purposes, you want the exhaust restriction to be about identical on both sides of the engine, so sizing a smaller turbo on one side and a larger turbo on the other will cause ineffective scavvaging on the smaller turbo side, unless you achieve a bypass. We tried running two small 1.6L Subaru turbos off each side, but they weezed out pretty low in the RPM band (about 3600-3800 RPM on the Buick). So, we then daisychained larger turbos (TE44) in series on the exhaust lines... however the smaller turbos "got in the way" at higher RPMs exhaust flow wise. So, we got a little crazy and used four of those cast iron JC Whitney exhaust bypass thingys and put one fore and one aft on the smaller turbo, so at low RPMs the smaller turbos were working hard, flowing its waste into the larger turbos to keep them somewhat spooled. Then, at 4000 RPM, we'd cut all four bypasses so the smaller turbos were "out of the loop". This worked very well, and increased power more broadly across the RPM band. The problem now is how to control these mechanical valves. Also, this is just the exhaust side of things, we hadn't really done anything with the intake side... we just monitored RPMs of the engine and where the turbos small or large stopped making any additional boost, or started to overspeed. Plumbing was a nightmare, and certainly the weight of four turbos plus four cast iron cutouts was not exactly something we wanted hanging off the headers. So, the small turbos went, and we used the two TE44's and at 6200 RPM, we blew the crank apart and testing continued on a second engine. We also experimented with nitrious for lower RPMs, triggering it in the 1500-3000 range thus giving more punch before the turbos are at max boost, and this also worked very, very well. Using the aftermarket ECMs (Haltech in this case) you have a general purpose output which you can use for Nitrious solenoids or fangle up an injector driver circuit to drive additional injectors... solder away my friend. We ended up with three injectors per cylinder... first two were 93/94 octane gasoline, the third was an 80% alky 20% distilled water mix from a seperate tank and worked very well. This is very similar to what I will be doing on my 383 stroker (431 cid) Mopar block during the spring as the parts start to come together. Hope that helps ;) -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 28 17:03:03 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:03:03 -0400 Subject: Location of intake air temperature sensor Message-ID: At 09:50 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and >intercooled port injection system? me before the turbo... usually in the air filter box. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From pfenske at bcit.bc.ca Fri May 28 17:14:34 1999 From: pfenske at bcit.bc.ca (Peter Fenske) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:14:34 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: Hi Gang Getting back to the original post. Jegs has a really nice set of cleaning taps for 20$ Another question. Does anyone know of long replacement metric gm wheel studs?? Peter From mark.eidson at intel.com Fri May 28 17:16:17 1999 From: mark.eidson at intel.com (Eidson, Mark) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:16:17 -0400 Subject: Location of intake air temperature sensor Message-ID: How does a MAP system compensate for the increased/reduced air temperature resulting from the turbo and intercooler? me -----Original Message----- From: David A. Cooley [mailto:n5xmt at bellsouth.net] Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 10:02 AM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor At 09:50 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and >intercooled port injection system? me before the turbo... usually in the air filter box. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Fri May 28 17:27:23 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:27:23 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: "Todd....!!" wrote: > > > So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's > and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, > wheras most others had meager cast units.... > Lots of mopars came with cast cranks, in fact even the last year of the 340 (1973) it came with a externally balanced cast crank. Cast cranks were very common in the B-RB engine family. Bill Edgeworth From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 28 17:30:14 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:30:14 -0400 Subject: Location of intake air temperature sensor Message-ID: At 10:16 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >How does a MAP system compensate for the increased/reduced air temperature >resulting from the turbo and intercooler? me Not sure... Probably a fudge factor for temp depending on Intake air temp, MAP and coolant temp. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 28 17:47:36 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:47:36 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > There may be more 400's BB Mopes than 440's in certain junkyards... It depends on where you live. Up here the roads are predominately later model FWD vehicles, therefore that's what the yards keep longer cuz they can sell parts. > Which would you prefer? I am undecided. The 440 weighs slightly more than the 383/400, but not enough that the additional cubes would work out just fine. Though, considering I put 100 hours into modifying my carb intake to support TPI, fabricated an aluminum plenum, well, might as well stick with the 383 or 400. So I imagine I just answered my own "undecided". Though the 440 has bigger crank journals :) -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 28 17:53:47 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:53:47 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: > So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's > and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, > wheras most others had meager cast units.... Mopar had a mix of cast and forged units over the years... and as the product line aged into the 70's, the cast parts became more common. Also not around this time due to emmission rules, the compression went down as well. Maybe these two statements are related. > I've heard that most s.b. chev 4-bolt main blocks had forged cranks, but > this hasn't been sildified/proven yet to me anyways, anybody? Some do some don't. One thing I will state about the Chevy engine, is its a bottom oiler, whereas most ford/mopar engines are top oilers. This means in a Chevy 350, the crank journals are oiled first. Interesting tidbit I got from the local machine shop this morning. -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Fri May 28 18:15:03 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:15:03 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > One thing I will state about the Chevy engine, is its a bottom oiler, > whereas most ford/mopar engines are top oilers. This means in a Chevy > 350, the crank journals are oiled first. Interesting tidbit I got > from the local machine shop this morning. > The SBC oiling layout in the block is similar to the FE Ford except more oil gets past the cam area to the crank. The mopar layout also has the oil going to the lifter bores first, then it goes to the mains and Vs off to the cam bearings. This system seemed to work okay in the 426 Hemi after they switched to full groove main bearings. Mopar had some tuners-tips mods to A block systems that included reamed and sleeving the primary lifter bore feed circuit. I dont know of any bottom-oiling domestic V8s, but the BBC and 427 Fords are side oilers. Honda makes some bottom oiling engines, but the best layout I know of were in the V-1710 and V-1650 V-12s. Best system I have seen is the end-shot system used in the 100 series Merlins. Very nice. From nacelp at bright.net Fri May 28 18:46:39 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:46:39 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: Subject: v8 block thread cleaning | Getting back to the original post. | Jegs has a really nice set of cleaning taps for 20$ | Another question. Does anyone know of long replacement | metric gm wheel studs?? I think ya want the 22551491 Grumpy | Peter | | From rgregory at chrysalis.org Fri May 28 18:50:50 1999 From: rgregory at chrysalis.org (Ron Gregory) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:50:50 -0400 Subject: ECM Doc Message-ID: > Greetings. What is the "Turbo P4 doc"? http://members.home.com/syclone/Turbo_P4_Doc.pdf Enjoy Ron From pford at qnx.com Fri May 28 19:02:55 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:02:55 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: Previously, you (Todd....!!) wrote: > If ya calulate the interest on a $1,000 loan with an APR of, what, 10% > MAX. > > Multiply $1,000 by 10%, this equals $100, then divide the $100 by 12 > months in a year, this gives ya about $10/mo interest MAX. I think you may be forgetting that this is compounded interest using the rule of 72 the time required for the interest to double is 7.2 years which is around $11.58 > > The entire loan only lasts about 6 weeks so thats about $15 MAX for > interest, however, since the loan is a SECURED loan SECURED with CASH > MONEY in THEIR BANK, the interest rate should be less than a normal > unsecured loans' interest would be... so the interest lost would be > minimal... once you remove that deposit from the bank the loan is no longer a secured loan. most banks ask that a deposit use as collatural be "hypothicated"(sp??) which means it's still yours but you can't have it. ( I bought a house while unemployed, the house was $120K, we had $70k, and the bank made us deposit $10k and hypothicate the 10K as security for mortgage payments) weird but true > > THEN we must look at the BIG picture, we're building a repore with a > bank which in the end will allow us to borrow money thru unsecured > loans, which will allow us to purchase propertis that we would otherwise > be unable to purchase.... banks up here have NO LOYALTY you are a cash cow once your milked off to the slaughterhouse > > The siz week loan period is to get within the visible loan length range > where the banks and other lending institution will notice the loans... > > Any shorter length than 6 weeks will go unnoticed by most banks... > > Then the SUPER big picture is to be able to fund a f.i.'d twin turbo > 451/440 project for the Superbee.... which is why I'm here learning as > much as I can before doin any buying or investing in parts..... > > Take it easy!, > > Sincerely, > > Todd....!! > http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm > > William T Wilson wrote: > > > > On Thu, 27 May 1999, Stegbauer, Michael wrote: > > > > > > Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in > > > > several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan > > > > using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit > > > > it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... > > > > A stunt like this will cost you a fortune in interest. However, it's > > mathematically sound. Basic economics class will demonstrate that exactly > > the same phenomenon is already at work and makes the banking system go. > > > > It is marginally useful for building credit references, but otherwise, > > won't do you much good. The credit bureaus know how much money you have > > loaned out total, and they know how many loans you have, too. And, of > > course, you have to pay the interest on the total amount you have > > borrowed whether it is in small or large lumps. > > -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From mail at darkstar.mv.com Fri May 28 19:09:12 1999 From: mail at darkstar.mv.com (Peter D. Hipson) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:09:12 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: Open an account at bank A, with $100. Go to bank B, open an account, with $100. Go to bank C, open an account with $100. Basically, (In the real world, it is a bit more complex, with a trust building period) write a check on A, for $75, deposite in B. immediately before the first check clears, write a check on B, for $175, deposit in C. immediately before the first check clears, write a check on C, for $275, deposit in A, immediately before the first check clears, write a check on A, for $375, deposite in B. immediately before the first check clears, write a check on B, for $475, deposit in C. immediately before the first check clears, write a check on C, for $575, deposit in A since none of the checks have cleared, each account will have many deposits, and no withdraws. Finally write a check on each account for about 95% of the balance and quick as a bunny, cash the check. Federal offense for check kiting, state offense for bad checks, probably a fraud charge in there too. At 09:49 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Borrowing money on borrowed money is not a federal offense man, but I >may just be TOTALLY ignorant of most things...meaning that I don't know >EVERYTHHING, hardly anything matter of fact... > >So, what's Check Kiting? > >Thanks! > >Todd....!! > >Peter D. Hipson wrote: >> >> Careful, that's very close to check kiting... A federal offence, btw. >> >> At 12:37 PM 5/27/99 -0700, you wrote: >> > >> >> Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in >> >> several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan >> >> using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit >> >> it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... >> >> >> >> Then mak 2 or 3 payments on each 'loan' over a 6 week period using the >> >> $3,000 'loan' money for payment money, then go back within about 6 weeks >> >> or so and pay all of em off, then ask for a signature loan from each >> >> bank for about the same amount...(signature meaning NO COLLATERAL!) and >> >> do the same thing with that signature loan money... This will build >> >> credit with the bank(s) as well as a relationship with em... >> > >> >Wow! I'm looking into buying some land. If the loan officers in >> >Houston are this stupid, maybe I should get a loan there. >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, >> Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) >> 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon > > > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon From green at nlenx.com Fri May 28 19:49:21 1999 From: green at nlenx.com (green) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:49:21 -0400 Subject: Location of intake air temperature sensor Message-ID: The SyTy system uses a MAT (manifold air temp) sensor. This is in the manifold itself, after the turbo. I'd think this is a good/bad thing. Bad, because it might be subject to heat soak of the manifold itself, but good because it is actually measuring the air going into the engine for fueling/timing calculations. So it would take into account turbo and intercooler efficiencies partially, as more/less fuel would be delivered, and more/less timing would be employed, versus the air temps. If the sensor was before the turbo, it might measure ambient only, while the air temps at the manifold would be much hotter, and vary a lot (i've seen them rise 50-100 degrees in a 1/4 run in a syty). It's interesting that the syty chip doesn't change fueling much versus the MAT temp..... here's the MAT temp fueling term table from the syty chips 0x04D1 F31M_TBLE Base Pulse Inverse Air Temp vs ADMAT (ACSP Senso Deg. K | Hot 136 107 91.0 80.0 71.0 63.0 56.0 49.3 43.3 37.0 30.5 23.5 15.5 6.0 -8.5 Cold ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- (Deg. K)| 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9D 0x9F 0xA5 0xC0 I'd think there'd be a direct relationship here between temperature and fueling needs. There's also a nifty table that is timing vs MAT and vs boost 0x02D2 F3_TABLE Spark Advance Adjustment vs ADMAT1K Deg. vs Deg. C & kPa Boost | Cold 23.5 49.3 80.0 Hot --------------------------------------- 0.0 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 12.5 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 25.0 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 37.5 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 50.0 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 62.5 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 75.0 | 20.04 20.04 18.98 16.87 20.04 87.5 | 20.04 20.04 17.93 15.82 20.04 100.0 | 16.87 16.87 16.87 14.77 14.77 Sorry if that looks goofy in the email.... Brian Green Syclone 160 |How does a MAP system compensate for the increased/reduced air temperature |resulting from the turbo and intercooler? me | |-----Original Message----- |From: David A. Cooley [mailto:n5xmt at bellsouth.net] |Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 10:02 AM |To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu |Subject: Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor | | |At 09:50 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: |>Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and |>intercooled port injection system? me | |before the turbo... usually in the air filter box. |=========================================================== | David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net | Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 | Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! |=========================================================== | From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 20:32:25 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:32:25 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps Message-ID: Hi David, Thanks for the info... However, as far as the lead content, buds said that the AVGas was kinda 'dry' and that I shouldn't run the AVGas too long so as to not burn the valves up... But if you read your source on the net, then it must be true, ey? lol LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 09:55 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: > >FYI - I ran AVgas(Aviation fuel) right from outa the airplane fueler > >tanker (They DIDN'T USE THE GROUND STRAP FROM THE TANKER TO THE CAR, but > >DID on all the planes, that coulda hurt!) into my 73 Camaro with a 383 > >stroker, closed chambered small valve heads(1.94), Edelbrock tunnelram > >w/ dual 600 vac holleys, 4-speed, and 3.73 limited slip 10-bolt rear... > >was at about 10.5:1 compression... first 5 gallons in the new motor were > >AVGAS, as were the next few tanks.... kinda expensive... started mixin > >super and avgas, then went to straight superunleaded(93 octane)... > > > >Everyone told me it was only 100 octane, the exhaust smelled like race > >gas to me.... > > They don't rate AV gas octane the same as regular gas... 100LL av gas is > about 105-110 octane in automotive terms... It also has MORE lead (even > though it says low lead) than any automotive leaded fuel (Almost twice the > amount) > Check out the Gasoline FAQ on the net... Pretty good info there. > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 20:32:32 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:32:32 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: HI David, I understand now. I am the orig poster, I didn't make myself clear... You DO leave the original $3,000 in the first bank til it's paid off, I don't think they'd let ya take it out anyways... good point about 'what if' ya DID take out that initial deposit! So leave the initial $3,000 outa your pocket in the first bank, deposit the loan money from the 1st bank into the second bank, get a loan on that cash, then go to the third bank with the loan money from the 2nd bank and so on... ALL the banks are treated the SAME, they have ALL loaned out the same amount that they have in an account held by the 'loanie'(sp?, is that even a word) /client/customer... I see what your saying though and will avoid that situation, too scary and risky for me to handle, on purpose anyways... Thanks for the input/advice/warning/answer(s)... Take er easy mang! LATER! Todd....!! -------- David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 09:49 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Borrowing money on borrowed money is not a federal offense man, but I > >may just be TOTALLY ignorant of most things...meaning that I don't know > >EVERYTHHING, hardly anything matter of fact... > > > >So, what's Check Kiting? > > That's where you write a check, buy something get cash back, deposit the > cash in the bank, write another check etc... basically trying to write > checks and deposit the money to stay ahead of all the checks because there > isn't enough money in the account... A secured loan, if you take the > security deposit out, as the original poster stated, violates the contract > of the loan and puts you in default. the money has to stay there until the > loan is paid off. > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 20:32:39 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:32:39 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Thanks for that heads up about the steel cranks Jason!, I always check the crank, rods, n pistons PERSONALLY by eye to make SURE they're a froging or casting, by the casting marks.... if the things polished, I don't know HOW to tell for sure.... maybe see if a magnet'll stick to it or somethin? haha...? Just kiddin, if the magnet don't stick, then it's either some sorta alloy, or aluminum(Rods, not crank) Just a quick general self-checker question: Anybody in here ever ran FORGED steel pistons? or do most of ya'll only run CAST iron pistons? Just wonderin what kinda answers I'll get from this.... I run forged hypereutectic myself, but a magnet won't stick to ANY of em! Anyone know why? LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm SPECTRO COATING CORP. wrote: > > >Whilst in Louisville, Kentuckey a few summers ago, QUITE a few, back in > >college, I went by a steel plant... they had a bunch a cranks that they > >were creating out of RAW MOLTEN STEEL!! COOL? Anyhoo they said that > >the cranks were for Toyota Camry's! They were FORGED!!! NEW CAMRY'S, > >at least about 5 to 8 years ago had FORGED CRANKS, didn't see any rods > >lyin around.... > > Toyota does know how to build engines... > > >So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's > >and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, > >wheras most others had meager cast units.... > > > >I've heard that most s.b. chev 4-bolt main blocks had forged cranks, but > >this hasn't been sildified/proven yet to me anyways, anybody? > > > Actually - no don't bet on a 4 bolt having a forged crank unless... > > A. its an LT-1 (no, not the 90's kind - the 70's kind) or > > B. It's in a school bus (really!), or out of a medium duty truck. > > FWIW - Jason From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 20:32:41 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:32:41 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: Hi ya Bruce, If one is building a car to race in a non intercooled arena, so be it, to each his own, the vehicle just won't perform to it's best potential as it would WITH an intercooler..... Intercoolers can allow for up to 30% or more power to be produced before engine breaking pre-detonation occurs...as compared to a non-intercooled counterpart... the intercooler's characteristics are ALL positive except maybe that it could cause a bit more of a turbo lag than it would without one... The intercooler disipates heat caused by the turbo pressurizing and heating the intake air charge causing the air charge to be COOLER and MORE DENSE than a non-intercooled engine at the same boost level... Matter of fact, I wonder if ANY big car manufacturer even offers any cars which are turbo equipped without an intercooler? Anyone? Sure ya don't have to use an intercooler, heck, ya don't HAVE to use a turbo at all, but the car won't be as powerful as it could be with a turbo and/or an intercooler.... Water cooled turbo center sections/(cartridges) tend to remain cooler than non-watercooled cartridges, because the turbo is driven by 1,500-2,000 degree exhaust air/fire this would lead me to believe that MOST of the oil breakdown which occurs in turbo cars, and the reason turbo cars' oil should be changed more frequently than the non-turbo'd cars is because of the heat produced by the turbo itself being transmitted into the oil itself....thus causing the oil to breakdown into it's by products, one of the byproduts being CARBON! (Coking the turbo bearing/bushing occurs, mostly aafter the engine is shutdown with an overly hot turbo...) A watercooled turbo doesn't have this 'problem' or issue to deal with....except for maybe the 'coking' issue after shutdown.... Please understand that I don't believe this to be any sort of argument at all, but a conveyance of the issue of whether one has the RIGHT to build their engine in any way the see fit, which I DO believe in, by the way, just so ya'll know... Take er easy... Sincerely!, Todd.... http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Bruce Plecan wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd....!! > To: > Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 12:34 PM > Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? > > | Hi Grumpy, > | In mine eyes, I believe buildin a f.i.'s turbo'd v8 WIHTOUT an > | intercooler is like buildin a normally aspirated v8 with only 4 > | pistons.... > > Need to open your eyes a tad farther. Some classes don't even allow for > intercooling. > > | The benefits of the turbo are less than half of that if designed WITH an > | intercooler.... > > Oh, Intercooler is just cooling intake charge, no one says you have to use > an intercooler to cool the intake charge. > > | Plus the turbo and engine incur WAY more thermal stress and are short > | lived in comparison... > | It's like building a car without a radiator.... > | A watercooled housing is a big help as far as oil breakdown within the > | turbo bushing/bearing area...where most of the oil breakdown occurs in a > | turbo engine due to the intense heat exposure in this area... > > Why?, have you researched or directly experimented with the water cooled > center housings?. > > | LATER! > | Todd.... > | Bruce Plecan wrote: > | > From: Todd....!! > | > Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? > | > | I'm TOTALLY interested in turbo(s), WITH INTERCOOLING! > | > | Intercoolin is a must in these days of enlightment n all... > | > Not really just one way to do something. > | > Grumpy From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 20:32:44 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:32:44 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: You are correct on the 73 and up mopar motors, some early 73's came with forged cranks n rods, later in 73 they all went to cast...Big and small blocks... Thanks for clarifying WHEN in 73 Mopar went from FORGED to CAST stuff... HOWEVER, up to the end of 72 ALL B/RB Mopars had FORGED cranks n rods, period, this is a well know and documented fact.... LATER, Todd.... http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Bill Edgeworth wrote: > > "Todd....!!" wrote: > > > > > > > So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's > > and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, > > wheras most others had meager cast units.... > > > > Lots of mopars came with cast cranks, in fact even the last year of the 340 (1973) > it came with a externally balanced cast crank. Cast cranks were very common in the > B-RB engine family. > > Bill Edgeworth From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 20:32:46 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:32:46 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: Good points! I WILL find out the diff 'tween a 383/400 and 440 block I have an apart 383 short block at gramps, am about to go up their this weekend, may have to weigh the sucker! How much ya think, just for the block alone? I'll go ahead and weigh the stock crank, rods, n pistons as well... It's good that you modified a B block intake, that means your goin with the 451, ey? GOOD FOR YOU! Go to http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/451/ and view what a dude who's callsign is acutall 451! I cut n pasted some of his info and advice about 451's onto my e-mail website and named it the 451 MANIFESTO! or 451 Domain, can't remember, but it has a lot of specofics on the subject of the 451! MOST GOOD! The main journal size may not be afactor, especially if ya just align bore the mains in the block instead of cut the mains down on the crank! Like Keith black does with most of his high dollar strokers.... LATER! Todd....!! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > There may be more 400's BB Mopes than 440's in certain junkyards... > > It depends on where you live. Up here the roads are predominately > later model FWD vehicles, therefore that's what the yards keep longer > cuz they can sell parts. > > > Which would you prefer? > > I am undecided. The 440 weighs slightly more than the 383/400, but > not enough that the additional cubes would work out just fine. > Though, considering I put 100 hours into modifying my carb intake to > support TPI, fabricated an aluminum plenum, well, might as well stick > with the 383 or 400. So I imagine I just answered my own "undecided". > > Though the 440 has bigger crank journals :) > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 20:32:49 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:32:49 -0400 Subject: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: Hi ya David, The older dude, taht owned the car said that the engine was stock.... the hood was up and the dudes were playin with the spark plugs and the nos solenoids n all were all over the place(Port type Fogger setup) An engine can be BONE stock and still have nitrous on it, just like an engine can be bone stock and still have a turbo on it, guess it depends on how you interpret what someone is saying when they say that their 'motor' is 'stock'... If taken literally, then the motor would be stock if the heads, intake, crank, n rods haven't been changed from factory specs..., like a blue printed engine... since the Fogger WAS installed INTO the intake manifold, the lil holes they drilled for the nos jets could be considered a MOD to the ENGINE, but what if only a nos plate was used? then the engine wouldn't've been touched, right? or what if a big ol nos nozzle was stuck in the cold air intake tract before the engine's intake or anything? Just wonderin.......... Here's some of the NHRA rules: >From a team cam-arrow site: http://www.camaros.net/racing/rules.html Will get back to ya on the paragraph # about runnin an IRS at the track... Todd.... http://www.c-com.net/~atc457/toddlnk.htm David A. Cooley wrote: > > >In order to run under like 12's or so on most tracks, at least in the > >US, you can't even run an IRS rear end! > > And where in the NHRA rules does it state this? > > > > >How he's runnin 10's more tthan ONCE on any trrakc in America, if that's > >where he got the 10's at, is VERY RARE indeed! > > > > Again, Show me the NHRA rule that states an IRS is not allowed if you go > XX.XX or faster > > >Maybe at an ALL Z car rod run at the strip or somethin, but NHRA rules > >are NHRA rules.... no matter what the occasion... > > > >Maybe I'm missing somethin...? > > > >For example, I MUST be missing some sorta loop hole, cuz a BONE STOCK > >Viper GTS was runnin in the 10.1xx at teh Houston Raceway park track > >justa few months ago at the Hennessey Viper Shootout where 26 Vipers > >turned out as well as one trailered Vette, which I didn't see come off > >the trailor the entire time... Looked GREAT though... Was red and had > >custom rims n all.. > > > >Before ya get your panties in a bunch, I must add that the 10 second > >Viper was runnin lil slicks in the rear and front runners up front, and > >had a 400 shot a NOS! and TWO(2) mechanics messin with the plugs to > >verify correct nos/a/f mixture... > > > > That's not stock... Stock would have been without the Nitrous... > The factory Viper Fuel pump will not handle fuel flow for 800HP... there > had to be other aftermarket parts, and therefore was NOT stock. > > >He 'said' that the whole engine was STOCK!! except the nos injectors, a > >course! > > > > He lied... Double HP and it's bone stock... Crank and rods would have been > all over the track > Hennesey Motorsports builds vipers and in their advertisements, just to get > to 600 HP they have to replace pistons, rods, crank etc. (It's on their web > page!!) > > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From fluffy at snurgle.org Fri May 28 20:43:34 1999 From: fluffy at snurgle.org (William T Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:43:34 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 1999, David A. Cooley wrote: > >So, what's Check Kiting? > > That's where you write a check, buy something get cash back, deposit the > cash in the bank, write another check etc... basically trying to write > checks and deposit the money to stay ahead of all the checks because there The difference is that with check kiting, if they catch you, you will end up without enough money to cover it all. In this little credit-building scheme, even if you stop making payments altogether, nobody is out any money because you put the money up in the first place. > of the loan and puts you in default. the money has to stay there > until the loan is paid off. It does, because you are using the money you borrowed from bank A as the collateral for bank B. No particular dollar actually gets used twice. From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Fri May 28 20:51:07 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:51:07 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > Anybody in here ever ran FORGED steel pistons? or do most of ya'll only > run CAST iron pistons? > > Just wonderin what kinda answers I'll get from this.... > > I run forged hypereutectic myself, but a magnet won't stick to ANY of > em! > > Anyone know why? > You have to use a special magnet for these. Try SnapOn... From mark.eidson at intel.com Fri May 28 20:51:18 1999 From: mark.eidson at intel.com (Eidson, Mark) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:51:18 -0400 Subject: Location of intake air temperature sensor Message-ID: This is more what I would have expected to find, thanks, me. -----Original Message----- From: green [mailto:green at nlenx.com] Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 12:33 PM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor The SyTy system uses a MAT (manifold air temp) sensor. This is in the manifold itself, after the turbo. I'd think this is a good/bad thing. Bad, because it might be subject to heat soak of the manifold itself, but good because it is actually measuring the air going into the engine for fueling/timing calculations. So it would take into account turbo and intercooler efficiencies partially, as more/less fuel would be delivered, and more/less timing would be employed, versus the air temps. If the sensor was before the turbo, it might measure ambient only, while the air temps at the manifold would be much hotter, and vary a lot (i've seen them rise 50-100 degrees in a 1/4 run in a syty). It's interesting that the syty chip doesn't change fueling much versus the MAT temp..... here's the MAT temp fueling term table from the syty chips 0x04D1 F31M_TBLE Base Pulse Inverse Air Temp vs ADMAT (ACSP Senso Deg. K | Hot 136 107 91.0 80.0 71.0 63.0 56.0 49.3 43.3 37.0 30.5 23.5 15.5 6.0 -8.5 Cold ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- (Deg. K)| 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9D 0x9F 0xA5 0xC0 I'd think there'd be a direct relationship here between temperature and fueling needs. There's also a nifty table that is timing vs MAT and vs boost 0x02D2 F3_TABLE Spark Advance Adjustment vs ADMAT1K Deg. vs Deg. C & kPa Boost | Cold 23.5 49.3 80.0 Hot --------------------------------------- 0.0 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 12.5 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 25.0 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 37.5 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 50.0 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 62.5 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 75.0 | 20.04 20.04 18.98 16.87 20.04 87.5 | 20.04 20.04 17.93 15.82 20.04 100.0 | 16.87 16.87 16.87 14.77 14.77 Sorry if that looks goofy in the email.... Brian Green Syclone 160 |How does a MAP system compensate for the increased/reduced air temperature |resulting from the turbo and intercooler? me | |-----Original Message----- |From: David A. Cooley [mailto:n5xmt at bellsouth.net] |Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 10:02 AM |To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu |Subject: Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor | | |At 09:50 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: |>Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and |>intercooled port injection system? me | |before the turbo... usually in the air filter box. |=========================================================== | David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net | Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 | Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! |=========================================================== | From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 20:57:01 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:57:01 -0400 Subject: More NHRA rules, but not the one were lookin for...Later...Todd... Message-ID: http://www.austintx.net/bigwig/txprahome/1999_PS_rules.htm From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Fri May 28 20:57:52 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:57:52 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > HOWEVER, up to the end of 72 ALL B/RB Mopars had FORGED cranks n rods, > period, this is a well know and documented fact.... > They started using cast cranks in the last year of 383 production. This crank was the most common 400 crank, too, although mopar says they put some forged [383] cranks in 400s. cant remember when 440s went to cast but it was about the time they started using 6 pack rods in all 440s. I think cast cranks are okay in these engines, based on my experience. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri May 28 21:15:12 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:15:12 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: At 02:15 PM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks for that heads up about the steel cranks Jason!, > >I always check the crank, rods, n pistons PERSONALLY by eye to make SURE >they're a froging or casting, by the casting marks.... if the things >polished, I don't know HOW to tell for sure.... maybe see if a >magnet'll stick to it or somethin? haha...? Just kiddin, if the magnet >don't stick, then it's either some sorta alloy, or aluminum(Rods, not >crank) > >Just a quick general self-checker question: > >Anybody in here ever ran FORGED steel pistons? or do most of ya'll only >run CAST iron pistons? > >Just wonderin what kinda answers I'll get from this.... > >I run forged hypereutectic myself, but a magnet won't stick to ANY of >em! > >Anyone know why? Never seen a steel piston of any sort (Except for brake wheel cylinders or calipers...) Never seen forged and hypereutectic together before either... seen Hypereutectic cast aluminum, plain cast aluminum and forged aluminum =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 21:27:20 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:27:20 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Hey Fred, I hear ya about the chev engine's, haven't EVER even seen a s.b. or b.b. forged crank.... all I've ever seen and/or used were all CAST units! And forged rods? forget about it unless ya go to Mr. Pink... As for the b/rb motors specifically, ALL of em had forged cranks n rods from the begninning until early to mid 1973.... No grey area here, maybe the slant 6 or 4 or s.b. 8 bangers, but I'm not 'into' then and don't know bout em.......you the man on that.... Still can't get into your sites... What up with that? Do I need some sorta password or special browser or different dial up server (Internet connection) or what? Can't WAIT to see the hummer and the specs on the f.i.'d Turbo mopar! LATER! Todd..... http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's > > and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, > > wheras most others had meager cast units.... > > Mopar had a mix of cast and forged units over the years... and as the > product line aged into the 70's, the cast parts became more common. > Also not around this time due to emmission rules, the compression went > down as well. Maybe these two statements are related. > > > I've heard that most s.b. chev 4-bolt main blocks had forged cranks, but > > this hasn't been sildified/proven yet to me anyways, anybody? > > Some do some don't. > > One thing I will state about the Chevy engine, is its a bottom oiler, > whereas most ford/mopar engines are top oilers. This means in a Chevy > 350, the crank journals are oiled first. Interesting tidbit I got > from the local machine shop this morning. > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) From atc347 at c-com.net Fri May 28 21:27:23 1999 From: atc347 at c-com.net (Todd....!!) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:27:23 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: Pat, Your in Canada right? Isn't it normal for mortgage payments to be paid every two weeks instead of monthly as they usually are here in the states? This is what I've heard... I'm plannin on payin on my house's $690/mo payment TWICE a month instead of once a month... every 1st n 15th of the month I'll pay $690/2 or $350 (The extra $10 goes towards the priciple and will reduce the number of years it takes to pay the loan back) Just by doin the bi-monthly payments alone, the 30 year loan is reduced to 22 yrs... the extra $10/mo will make it less than 20 yrs, if I remember correctly... Lemme know kay? LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Pat Ford wrote: > > Previously, you (Todd....!!) wrote: > > If ya calulate the interest on a $1,000 loan with an APR of, what, 10% > > MAX. > > > > Multiply $1,000 by 10%, this equals $100, then divide the $100 by 12 > > months in a year, this gives ya about $10/mo interest MAX. > > I think you may be forgetting that this is compounded interest > > using the rule of 72 the time required for the interest to double > is 7.2 years which is around $11.58 > > > > > The entire loan only lasts about 6 weeks so thats about $15 MAX for > > interest, however, since the loan is a SECURED loan SECURED with CASH > > MONEY in THEIR BANK, the interest rate should be less than a normal > > unsecured loans' interest would be... so the interest lost would be > > minimal... > > once you remove that deposit from the bank the loan is no longer a > secured loan. most banks ask that a deposit use as collatural be > "hypothicated"(sp??) which means it's still yours but you can't have > it. ( I bought a house while unemployed, the house was $120K, we > had $70k, and the bank made us deposit $10k and hypothicate the 10K > as security for mortgage payments) weird but true > > > > > THEN we must look at the BIG picture, we're building a repore with a > > bank which in the end will allow us to borrow money thru unsecured > > loans, which will allow us to purchase propertis that we would otherwise > > be unable to purchase.... > > banks up here have NO LOYALTY you are a cash cow once your milked off to > the slaughterhouse > > > > > The siz week loan period is to get within the visible loan length range > > where the banks and other lending institution will notice the loans... > > > > Any shorter length than 6 weeks will go unnoticed by most banks... > > > > Then the SUPER big picture is to be able to fund a f.i.'d twin turbo > > 451/440 project for the Superbee.... which is why I'm here learning as > > much as I can before doin any buying or investing in parts..... > > > > Take it easy!, > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Todd....!! > > http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm > > > > William T Wilson wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 27 May 1999, Stegbauer, Michael wrote: > > > > > > > > Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in > > > > > several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan > > > > > using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit > > > > > it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... > > > > > > A stunt like this will cost you a fortune in interest. However, it's > > > mathematically sound. Basic economics class will demonstrate that exactly > > > the same phenomenon is already at work and makes the banking system go. > > > > > > It is marginally useful for building credit references, but otherwise, > > > won't do you much good. The credit bureaus know how much money you have > > > loaned out total, and they know how many loans you have, too. And, of > > > course, you have to pay the interest on the total amount you have > > > borrowed whether it is in small or large lumps. > > > > > > -- > Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com > QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews > (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From mike.stegbauer at compaq.com Fri May 28 21:49:55 1999 From: mike.stegbauer at compaq.com (Stegbauer, Michael) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:49:55 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: Todd, I'm assuming the bank runs a credit report and can see that you are getting a large number of small loans in a short amount of time. Even if they didn't notice that this looks alot like check kiting (not exactly the same thing), it would be really suspicious and they'd be pretty foolish to give a loan like that. I did get the impression from you original message that you were asking for more money with each loan, so maybe I've misunderstood something there. They might do it for a loan equal to the amount of cash but at some point you'd be asking for more money, right? (I don't remember the details of stage 2). Sooner or later I bet they'll start denying you on the number of credit inquiries alone. Good luck though! The cause is just. ;-) Anyway, have you tried heavier oil for your lifters? Whenever I showed up for an event, all the other DSMers would come over and tell me that I had the worst lifter tick they'd ever heard. Mobil 1 made it worse, but then I switched to the Valvoline Syntec(?) (full Synthetic) 5W-30 and the noise went away. I had to get it at PepBoys to start, but Walmart sells it now. I switch to the lighter stuff for winter and had a little tick occasionally at startup, but nothing to even think about. The lifters usually aren't a major problem anyway, though some people think they can trigger the knock sensor. It sounds like your compression is way low. The archives (search.dsm.org) suggest that most turbos read around 150. Cheers, Mike 92 AWD Laser -----Original Message----- From: Todd....!! [mailto:atc347 at c-com.net] Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 11:14 AM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Hello Michael, Stupid meaning what? Do you believe that a bank giving a 'loan' to someone who puts the exact same amount as the loan in a savings account at that bank for collateral as bing STUPID? They have NO risk whatsoever on that loan, plus they get the interest from the loan when all is said and done... That' sounds like a no risk type of loan to me as far as the bank's concerned.... I may not have conveyed the theory well.... ANY bank will give a loan for cash as long as you give them that same amount of cash in an account.... I'll let ya know how it goes.... The banker may ask why you would even want a loan if you already have the money, all ya have to tell em is that you have a hard time saving money, and that if it were in the form of a loan that you would have more of a reason to save the money, or somethin like that... Simple... Easy... Works... Purpose is to build repore and confidence with the lender... LATER! Todd.... ----------- Stegbauer, Michael wrote: > > > Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in > > several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan > > using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit > > it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... > > > > Then mak 2 or 3 payments on each 'loan' over a 6 week period using the > > $3,000 'loan' money for payment money, then go back within about 6 weeks > > or so and pay all of em off, then ask for a signature loan from each > > bank for about the same amount...(signature meaning NO COLLATERAL!) and > > do the same thing with that signature loan money... This will build > > credit with the bank(s) as well as a relationship with em... > > Wow! I'm looking into buying some land. If the loan officers in > Houston are this stupid, maybe I should get a loan there. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 28 21:57:46 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:57:46 -0400 Subject: alternative engines, now Hemi Message-ID: > have to weigh the sucker! How much ya think, just for the block alone? Wild stab, 300-350 lbs. > It's good that you modified a B block intake, that means your goin with > the 451, ey? 431, but yes, check out http://xephic.dynip.com/dodge/dodge.html and off the menu thingys on the left you will find "EFI COnversion" and you can see what I brazed together. Plenum pictures aren't there yet, but the injector bungs are. Also, the fuel rails are done, but I have to take pictures also. > Go to http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/451/ and view what a dude who's Bookmakred... going later! > The main journal size may not be afactor, especially if ya just align > bore the mains in the block instead of cut the mains down on the crank! > Like Keith black does with most of his high dollar strokers.... line boring eliminates misaligned bores... whole purpose of this process. Turning down the 440 crank to a 383 or 400 engine is not a big deal, and you have the same crank strength as the 383/400 crank assuming both are cast, or both are forged, or both are steel. Gotta compare apples to apples :) From soren at rio.com Fri May 28 22:11:18 1999 From: soren at rio.com (soren) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:11:18 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: --- >Matter of fact, I wonder if ANY big car manufacturer even offers any >cars which are turbo equipped without an intercooler? > >Anyone? Probably not right now, but recently (recent in the timeline of automotive technology, I think mostly the 1980s) Chrysler, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Buick, are the ones I have personally seen that have no stock intercooler. And they did know about intercoolers then, evidently those particular models didn't require them. I suppose that the masses who are used to naturally aspirated performance might rather have a low-boost, low-lag system where the turbo pushes air through about one foot of intake piping instead of 6 ft. Soren From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Fri May 28 22:39:30 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:39:30 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 1999, David A. Cooley wrote: > Never seen a steel piston of any sort (Except for brake wheel cylinders or > calipers...) Some early aircraft engines used steel pistons. Cast iron pistons, of course, WERE common in automobile engines way back when. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Fri May 28 22:55:36 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:55:36 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: > I hear ya about the chev engine's, haven't EVER even seen a s.b. or b.b. > forged crank.... all I've ever seen and/or used were all CAST units! I'm not a chevy guy, so I can't confirm/refute. I have a friend's 350 in the garage, maybe I should rip it apart on him "for testing purposes" LOL > Still can't get into your sites... Was up this morning, I"ll reboot the server in a few. Mail obviously works. Hey, its NT, very finicky. > Do I need some sorta password or special browser or different dial up > server (Internet connection) or what? Nope, nothing other than a left handed smoke shifter. From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Fri May 28 23:00:06 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:00:06 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 1999, soren wrote: > Probably not right now, but recently (recent in the timeline of > automotive technology, I think mostly the 1980s) Chrysler, Mitsubishi, > Subaru, Buick, are the ones I have personally seen that have no stock > intercooler. And they did know about intercoolers then, evidently those > particular models didn't require them. I suppose that the masses who are > used to naturally aspirated performance might rather have a low-boost, > low-lag system where the turbo pushes air through about one foot of intake > piping instead of 6 ft. > Most first-generation [meaning in the 1980s] car turbo systems were non-intercooled. Later ones were sometimes air-to-air intercooled. A few were liquid-to-air-intercooled. It roughly followed the "rule of 7" -- non-intercooled meant max boost about 7 psi, air intercooled meant max boost about 14 psi, liquid intercooled about 21 psi. From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Fri May 28 23:04:30 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:04:30 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Cast cranks were introduced in late 1971 in the 383-2Bbl and were used in all 72-78 400's except some (not all) 72-74 400-4Bbl The cast crank was first used in the 440 in 74 Over 3 million 383's were produced through 1971 and 3/4 million 440's (forged crank motor's) I dont know the numbers for the 400. Bill Edgeworth > > So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's > and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, > wheras most others had meager cast units.... From twsharpe at mtco.com Fri May 28 23:11:22 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:11:22 -0400 Subject: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: Ross Corrigan wrote: > So any ideas/thoughts at all on the halfshaft fabrication (other donor > telescoping parts? our Z ones are too weak for him Any 4WD drive shaft!! Tom S From twsharpe at mtco.com Fri May 28 23:24:31 1999 From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:24:31 -0400 Subject: Off list Message-ID: Hi all. I'm on vacation in Israel for two weeks so no replies for at least 16 days. I'll say a prayer at the wall for Dr. Bruce. To all who sent Bins for disassembly - what a challenge, most are not the same as the old Mustang and HC11 that I started with, requiring much tweaking... I'll be back on them soon. PS. I got some small parts from BGMicro(.com) They have lots of unusual things and prices and good service. Best of luck to all - no replies please. Tom Sharpe From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Fri May 28 23:42:58 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:42:58 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: > Mopar had some tuners-tips > mods to A block systems that included reamed and sleeving the primary > lifter bore feed circuit. I have seen this for Roller cammed small blocks where you remove the plug for the oil galley from the block drill it out and push in a brass or copper tube. Then the section of the tube sticking out into the lifter bore has to be pushed in using a old lifter with a radiused end. You then have to redrill all intersecting oil passages. Actually you enlarge most of them. You also have to block off part of the front left galley. If you do not do this on the LA engine with a roller cam your oil pressure will be to low. Kind of seems scary to me that the only oil the lifters see is from splash, drain back or windage after this mod. Bill Edgeworth From mwichstr at online.no Fri May 28 23:48:21 1999 From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 19:48:21 -0400 Subject: software changes Message-ID: Hi List! If I have a car with a GM ECU and wants to make changes in the software to make it better suited for turbo charging , how can this be done? Espen Hilde My ToyZ : Motion 25fot cat 2 * 2,5 Mercury Efi offshore (Just made fuel catch tanks for it)( Anyone who knows anything about the efi system on thise engines?They say the ecu is analog....?sj ...( sucks in Norwegian....) I need a tow car for this boat , is your turbo Hummer for sale Frederic? 69 NSU 1000 TT (1850ccm turbo) VW offroad buggy.50 hp...... 22 fot Gilbert ,tuned 225 hp Yamaha .sport boat 74 knots :-) 1/10 of a Mastercraft barefoot waterski boat. :\/\/\/: =Best fun there is! 2 RC Boats 3 RC Cars 1 RC cox engine with crashing sail plane.... 1 pair Ice hookey skates etc............. Going to hit the water this summer?......Maybe I must learn some real estate...... From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 29 00:19:28 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:19:28 -0400 Subject: software changes Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Espen Hilde To: Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 7:46 PM Subject: software changes MAF, or MAP? What car?. What ecm?. Generally would be easier to switch ecms for one that is a turbo application. If MAF them doing a MAF change, and recalibration might be possible in theory. If MAP can be crudely done, if a haced ecm. Grumpy | Hi List! | If I have a car with a GM ECU and wants to make changes in the software | to make it better suited for turbo charging , how can this be done? | Espen Hilde | | My ToyZ : | Motion 25fot cat 2 * 2,5 Mercury Efi offshore (Just made fuel catch tanks | for it)( Anyone who knows anything about the efi system on thise | engines?They say the ecu is analog....?sj ...( sucks in Norwegian....) | I need a tow car for this boat , is your turbo Hummer for sale Frederic? | 69 NSU 1000 TT (1850ccm turbo) | VW offroad buggy.50 hp...... | 22 fot Gilbert ,tuned 225 hp Yamaha .sport boat 74 knots :-) | 1/10 of a Mastercraft barefoot waterski boat. :\/\/\/: =Best fun there is! | 2 RC Boats | 3 RC Cars | 1 RC cox engine with crashing sail plane.... | 1 pair Ice hookey skates | etc............. | | Going to hit the water this summer?......Maybe I must learn some real | estate...... | | From mccabet at mediaone.net Sat May 29 00:25:18 1999 From: mccabet at mediaone.net (Thomas McCabe) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:25:18 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Jim Davies wrote: > > On Fri, 28 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > > > Anybody in here ever ran FORGED steel pistons? or do most of ya'll only > > run CAST iron pistons? > > > > Just wonderin what kinda answers I'll get from this.... > > > > I run forged hypereutectic myself, but a magnet won't stick to ANY of > > em! > > > > Anyone know why? > > > You have to use a special magnet for these. Try SnapOn... OK, Most pistons are ALUMINUM, forged or cast. I've personally never seen a STEEL piston. My .02 L8r -- Thomas McCabe -mccabet at mediaone.net '85 D250, 340 on Propane, Auto '89 Lebaron GTC, 2.2L Turbo II, A-555 5 Speed, MPSBEC '91 Spirit R/T, 2.2L DOHC 16 Valve T3, A568 5 Speed, Anti-lock Brakes, Power Windows, Locks, Drivers Seat. '96 Dakota SLT Club Cab, Brilliant Blue, 5.2L, Auto, 3.55 SG, Gibson Cat-Back Exhaust, ARE A-234 15x7 rims w/ Dunlop GT Qualifiers 255R60-15, Molded running boards and flares, Lund bug shield, Cool Fronts, Ventvisors, and Extang Saber Tonnue cover. From peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au Sat May 29 00:35:32 1999 From: peter at ntserver.techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:35:32 -0400 Subject: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Message-ID: Peter D. Hipson wrote: > Open an account at bank A, with $100. Go to bank B, open an account, with [snip] >write a check on A, for $75, deposite in B. >immediately before the first check clears, [snip] I can't see how cheque "kiting" can work in the real world these days? What kind of bank has a zero cheque clearance period? Any bank I know will only give you cash up to the value of your "cleared" funds. Actually, (in Australia) if you deposit cash and ask for a bank cheque, then deposit that cheque in another bank, the second bank will (as with all cheques, bank or otherwise) impose a clearance period, UNLESS you ask for immediate clearance requiring a bank fee ($20 sort of figure). This is the case even if the banks are right beside each other. It's just like the casino - the banks can't lose! regards, -- Peter Gargano From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Sat May 29 00:47:29 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 20:47:29 -0400 Subject: To Todd Message-ID: Just rebooted... server's up. Happy surfing. From zxv at istar.ca Sat May 29 01:28:01 1999 From: zxv at istar.ca (Ross Corrigan) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:28:01 -0400 Subject: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: At 10:21 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >OK Ross... > >In order to run under like 12's or so on most tracks, at least in the >US, you can't even run an IRS rear end! > I"m not up on 1/4 miles rules but what I've heard several times is sub 10's requires solid axle or I'd have several more friends checking this out d/2 requirements rather than fun! Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv at istar.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sat May 29 02:03:26 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 22:03:26 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 1999, Bill Edgeworth wrote: > I have seen this for Roller cammed small blocks where you remove the plug for > the oil galley from the block drill it out and push in a brass or copper tube. > Then the section of the tube sticking out into the lifter bore has to be > pushed in using a old lifter with a radiused end. You then have to redrill all > intersecting oil passages. Actually you enlarge most of them. This is the scary part for me because of the small amount of core shift that will give you a cracked block especially in a high revver... > Kind of seems scary to me that the only oil the lifters see is from splash, > drain back or windage after this mod. > Keep the revs above 2000 and it should give reasonable durability... From mwichstr at online.no Sat May 29 02:07:55 1999 From: mwichstr at online.no (Espen Hilde) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 22:07:55 -0400 Subject: software changes Message-ID: Good to see you there on the list Bruce! Have you accepted to do the surgery? Then go for it, dont worry ,it wount help you ....To worry is like shooting yourself in the back of your head , a guy running a dyno told me ...I was worrying about if the engine would blow apart.The engine screeming in the other room, glowing reed, terrifying.....whosh the coolant boiled, Is the engine a wreck....no its ok...puuuhhhhh. You just have to accept whats coming if you have decided...(easy for me to say....) Not easy to do software changes in the human brain.........:-) > MAF, or MAP? > What car?. > What ecm?. > Generally would be easier to switch ecms for one that is a turbo > application. > If MAF them doing a MAF change, and recalibration might be possible in > theory. > If MAP can be crudely done, if a haced ecm. > Grumpy Its just a minds game...how is it done to make new features in an ECUs program? Do you have to know what type of language its written in? Have to know how to program offcurse....... if I wanted to make a table for filtering the map signal for different points in the working aria. but its maybe there allready? Espen From claresnyder at home.com Sat May 29 02:29:22 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 22:29:22 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps Message-ID: LL100 has over twice the maximum amount of lead ever used in automotive pump gas. No problem with burning valves from lack of lead, but quite possibly a problem with sticking valves due to lead deposit buildup on stems. Common problem on some air-cooled aviation engines designed for the older avgas. ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 5:03 PM Subject: Re: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps > Hi David, > > Thanks for the info... > > However, as far as the lead content, buds said that the AVGas was kinda > 'dry' and that I shouldn't run the AVGas too long so as to not burn the > valves up... > > But if you read your source on the net, then it must be true, ey? lol > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm > > > David A. Cooley wrote: > > > > At 09:55 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >FYI - I ran AVgas(Aviation fuel) right from outa the airplane fueler > > >tanker (They DIDN'T USE THE GROUND STRAP FROM THE TANKER TO THE CAR, but > > >DID on all the planes, that coulda hurt!) into my 73 Camaro with a 383 > > >stroker, closed chambered small valve heads(1.94), Edelbrock tunnelram > > >w/ dual 600 vac holleys, 4-speed, and 3.73 limited slip 10-bolt rear... > > >was at about 10.5:1 compression... first 5 gallons in the new motor were > > >AVGAS, as were the next few tanks.... kinda expensive... started mixin > > >super and avgas, then went to straight superunleaded(93 octane)... > > > > > >Everyone told me it was only 100 octane, the exhaust smelled like race > > >gas to me.... > > > > They don't rate AV gas octane the same as regular gas... 100LL av gas is > > about 105-110 octane in automotive terms... It also has MORE lead (even > > though it says low lead) than any automotive leaded fuel (Almost twice the > > amount) > > Check out the Gasoline FAQ on the net... Pretty good info there. > > =========================================================== > > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > > =========================================================== > > > From claresnyder at home.com Sat May 29 02:42:55 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (CLsnyder) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 22:42:55 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 5:15 PM Subject: Re: Prowler V6 > Thanks for that heads up about the steel cranks Jason!, > > I always check the crank, rods, n pistons PERSONALLY by eye to make SURE > they're a froging or casting, by the casting marks.... if the things > polished, I don't know HOW to tell for sure.... maybe see if a > magnet'll stick to it or somethin? haha...? Just kiddin, if the magnet > don't stick, then it's either some sorta alloy, or aluminum(Rods, not > crank) > > Just a quick general self-checker question: > > Anybody in here ever ran FORGED steel pistons? or do most of ya'll only > run CAST iron pistons? > 85 horse Ford flattie came with either steel or aluminum pistons. 60 horse was only steel. > Just wonderin what kinda answers I'll get from this.... > > I run forged hypereutectic myself, but a magnet won't stick to ANY of > em! > > Anyone know why? > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm > > > > SPECTRO COATING CORP. wrote: > > > > >Whilst in Louisville, Kentuckey a few summers ago, QUITE a few, back in > > >college, I went by a steel plant... they had a bunch a cranks that they > > >were creating out of RAW MOLTEN STEEL!! COOL? Anyhoo they said that > > >the cranks were for Toyota Camry's! They were FORGED!!! NEW CAMRY'S, > > >at least about 5 to 8 years ago had FORGED CRANKS, didn't see any rods > > >lyin around.... > > > > Toyota does know how to build engines... > > > > >So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's > > >and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, > > >wheras most others had meager cast units.... > > > > > >I've heard that most s.b. chev 4-bolt main blocks had forged cranks, but > > >this hasn't been sildified/proven yet to me anyways, anybody? > > > > > Actually - no don't bet on a 4 bolt having a forged crank unless... > > > > A. its an LT-1 (no, not the 90's kind - the 70's kind) or > > > > B. It's in a school bus (really!), or out of a medium duty truck. > > > > FWIW - Jason > > > From nacelp at bright.net Sat May 29 03:13:42 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:13:42 -0400 Subject: Butterfly valves part II Message-ID: This is embarrassing, Doc been dancing around all night hoping someone would send him a clue, but it hasn't happened (tha clue musk oil, stinks) Anyway how do you use this chart?. ie on a 2" pipe at 30d, how do you figure how much air is passing? Grumpy | I scanned it and posted to efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming | as "flowbrws.jpg" and "flow.jpg". The first is viewable and | printable with a web browser. The second is a better quality | one, but requires a nicer program (like Photoshop) to print on | a single page. later, -greg From ngarav at yahoo.com Sat May 29 03:49:53 1999 From: ngarav at yahoo.com (Nahuel Garavaglia) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 23:49:53 -0400 Subject: bosch l-jetronics question Message-ID: Hi, i want to get some trick about upgrading, for more hp, dont care about fuel consuption, for a L-jets, efi mounted on a datsun L20, thanks === Nahuel Garavaglia ngarav at yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ECMnut at aol.com Sat May 29 04:00:25 1999 From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:00:25 -0400 Subject: Location of intake air temperature sensor Message-ID: In a message dated 5/28/99 1:06:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, n5xmt at bellsouth.net writes: > >Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and > >intercooled port injection system? me > > before the turbo... usually in the air filter box. It is in the intake plenum on a Syclone/Typhoon. Mike V From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Sat May 29 04:00:48 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:00:48 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: You're TOO cruel, SnapOn doesn't carry metric magnets... But Craftsman does :) Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Jim Davies To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 28, 1999 7:37 PM Subject: Re: Prowler V6 > > >On Fri, 28 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > >> Anybody in here ever ran FORGED steel pistons? or do most of ya'll only >> run CAST iron pistons? >> >> Just wonderin what kinda answers I'll get from this.... >> >> I run forged hypereutectic myself, but a magnet won't stick to ANY of >> em! >> >> Anyone know why? >> >You have to use a special magnet for these. Try SnapOn... > > > From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 29 04:51:40 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:51:40 -0400 Subject: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: Gary Derian wrote: > > Those old Datsuns used regular U-joints and ball splines to accommodate the > length change. All front wheel drive and independent rear suspension rear > wheel drive cars use halfshafts that accommodate length change. Not Corvette up to 1980. Halfshafts provide support for rear wheels. Ceter pin of differential is considered part of the suspension. Vettes have two rods from bottom of differential to bottom of knuckle, knuckle is mounted on a trailing arm, and the spring is mounted laterally, connected to the rear of the knuckles. FYI. Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 29 04:55:25 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 00:55:25 -0400 Subject: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: Jim Davies wrote: Corvette never used any Dana 60s. There's an optional diff, like a Dana 53. Shannen From eclark at hoser.com Sat May 29 05:00:54 1999 From: eclark at hoser.com (eclark at hoser.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:00:54 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > > Anybody in here ever ran FORGED steel pistons? or do most of ya'll only > run CAST iron pistons? > > Just wonderin what kinda answers I'll get from this.... > > I run forged hypereutectic myself, but a magnet won't stick to ANY of > em! All of the above is Aluminum. thats why yer magnets dont work. -Eric> From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 29 05:08:55 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:08:55 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: Peter Fenske wrote: > > Hi Gang > > Getting back to the original post. > Jegs has a really nice set of cleaning taps for 20$ > > Another question. Does anyone know of long replacement > metric gm wheel studs?? > Peter Long as in how long? What application? Shannen From eclark at hoser.com Sat May 29 05:09:36 1999 From: eclark at hoser.com (eclark at hoser.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:09:36 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: I cant remember exactly but I think that ALL small journal small block 327's had a forged steel crank. I know my '66 does. - Eric From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sat May 29 05:09:45 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:09:45 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: On Sat, 29 May 1999, C. Brooks wrote: > You're TOO cruel, SnapOn doesn't carry metric magnets... But Craftsman does > :) > Or you can treat a regular one with Slick 50... From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sat May 29 05:11:28 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:11:28 -0400 Subject: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: On Sat, 29 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > Jim Davies wrote: > > Corvette never used any Dana 60s. > There's an optional diff, like a Dana 53. > Shannen > > What years and engines? From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Sat May 29 05:12:55 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:12:55 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: On Sat, 29 May 1999 eclark at hoser.com wrote: > I cant remember exactly but I think that ALL small journal small block > 327's had a forged steel crank. I know my '66 does. > Regular 327s used either, Hipos were forged... From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 29 05:19:00 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 01:19:00 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Thomas McCabe wrote: > > Jim Davies wrote: > > > > On Fri, 28 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > > > > > Anybody in here ever ran FORGED steel pistons? or do most of ya'll only > > > run CAST iron pistons? > > > > > > Just wonderin what kinda answers I'll get from this.... > > > > > > I run forged hypereutectic myself, but a magnet won't stick to ANY of > > > em! > > > > > > Anyone know why? > > > > > You have to use a special magnet for these. Try SnapOn... > > OK, Most pistons are ALUMINUM, forged or cast. I've personally never > seen a STEEL piston. > > My .02 > > L8r > -- You haven't looked at an old enough engine. When advancing the spark meant moving the lever, and "Crank 'er up!" meant getting out with the Z shaped handle, there were ferrous pistons. Shannen > Thomas McCabe > -mccabet at mediaone.net > '85 D250, 340 on Propane, Auto > '89 Lebaron GTC, 2.2L Turbo II, A-555 5 Speed, MPSBEC > '91 Spirit R/T, 2.2L DOHC 16 Valve T3, A568 5 Speed, Anti-lock Brakes, > Power Windows, Locks, Drivers Seat. > '96 Dakota SLT Club Cab, Brilliant Blue, 5.2L, Auto, 3.55 SG, > Gibson Cat-Back Exhaust, ARE A-234 15x7 rims w/ Dunlop GT Qualifiers > 255R60-15, Molded running boards and flares, Lund bug shield, Cool > Fronts, Ventvisors, and Extang Saber Tonnue cover. From gderian at oh.verio.com Sat May 29 12:18:28 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:18:28 -0400 Subject: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: Thanks for reminding me. I know about the Vette - just forgot. Actually, only the latest C5 Vette does not use the driveshaft as an upper control arm. That's the danger of using always or never. The Jaguar also has a fixed halfshaft. Gary Derian > Gary Derian wrote: > > > > Those old Datsuns used regular U-joints and ball splines to accommodate the > > length change. All front wheel drive and independent rear suspension rear > > wheel drive cars use halfshafts that accommodate length change. > > Not Corvette up to 1980. Halfshafts provide support for rear wheels. > Ceter pin of differential is considered part of the suspension. > Vettes have two rods from bottom of differential to bottom of knuckle, > knuckle is mounted on a trailing arm, and the spring is mounted > laterally, connected to the rear of the knuckles. FYI. > Shannen From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sat May 29 12:46:20 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:46:20 -0400 Subject: Location of intake air temperature sensor Message-ID: At 11:59 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/28/99 1:06:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >n5xmt at bellsouth.net writes: > >> >Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and >> >intercooled port injection system? me >> >> before the turbo... usually in the air filter box. > >It is in the intake plenum on a Syclone/Typhoon. Ah.. My experience was with the 86/7 Buick GN... MAF with MAT, but the MAT is in the air stream immediately after the air filter, before the MAF and turbo etc... =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sat May 29 13:04:20 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:04:20 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: At 04:00 PM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >Most first-generation [meaning in the 1980s] car turbo systems were >non-intercooled. Later ones were sometimes air-to-air intercooled. A few >were liquid-to-air-intercooled. It roughly followed the "rule of 7" -- >non-intercooled meant max boost about 7 psi, air intercooled meant max >boost about 14 psi, liquid intercooled about 21 psi. Hmm... My non-intercooled 85 Buick GN ran 14PSI boost stock... the 86/87's went to 17-18 PSI if conditions were favorable (intercooled) and the water to air intercooled Syclone/Typhoon only ran 15 or so PSI... The problem with a water to air intercooled turbo on MOST cars is they use the engines own coolant... this means it's not cooler than 180 degrees once the engine is up to temp... The Syclone.Typhoon used antifreez, but it was a seperate circuit with it's own pump and mini radiator... It's problem was the pump wasn't triggerred by the ECM until the temps got way up. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From nwester at eidnet.org Sat May 29 16:08:05 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 12:08:05 -0400 Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Message-ID: The vacuum was around the $80 buck range from what I remember--it's pretty handy for clean-up. Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- From: Stowe, Ted-SEA To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 12:48 PM Subject: RE: v8 block thread cleaning >yes I just waltzed through a Snap-On truck for 10 min, $300 later... >they do have a nice set of long bottom tap things made for this purpose, >sort of a thread chaser. > >their handy magnetic light is $75, I 'd hate to ask what the vac cleaner is. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Programmer [SMTP:nwester at eidnet.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 11:16 PM >> To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Subject: Re: v8 block thread cleaning >> >> After hot-tanking and jet washing, all threads are re-tapped, blown clean >> and where needed, sealer is reapplied to bolt threads at "torque" up time. >> Hope this helps...if this is just at valve job time, to risk >> non-contamination, I'd just clean all bolts and apply sealer to the >> threads >> again. SnapOn does make a handy air powered vacuum cleaner !! >> >> Lyndon IPTECH >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stowe, Ted-SEA >> To: 'diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' >> >> Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 6:34 PM >> Subject: v8 block thread cleaning >> >> >> > >> >howdy. >> > >> >what do you guys use to clean up the block head bolt holes ? >> >it would be criminal to torque my shiny heads to all that crud down >> there, >> >which I think exits to the water jacket and or the oil pan ? especially >> with >> >the arp thread sealer/lube on them. >> > >> >I see that snap on has a thread chaser tool set, rtd-42, however I can't >> >seem to find a local snap on guy to buy it from. >> > >> >compressed air would blow that junk down into my engine beyond any doubt. >> > >> >so if you were doing a valve job, what do you use ? >> > >> >thanks, Ted Stowe >> > From eclark at hoser.com Sat May 29 16:10:56 1999 From: eclark at hoser.com (eclark at hoser.com) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 12:10:56 -0400 Subject: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: On Sat, 29 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > Thanks for reminding me. I know about the Vette - just forgot. Actually, > only the latest C5 Vette does not use the driveshaft as an upper control > arm. That's the danger of using always or never. The Jaguar also has a > fixed halfshaft. I'd love to see a C5's transaxle swapped into another car. Now that would be a fun project. :) From gderian at oh.verio.com Sat May 29 19:13:54 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:13:54 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: If you use cooling water from the cold side of the radiator, it will be a lot cooler. Or a separate system. Actually, a separate cooling system doesn't need a radiator. It operates as an interheater during cruise cooling the water to nearly ambient. During short runs of boost, it has enough heat capacity to keep things cool for a while. It won't work on a land speed record car, though Gary Derian > >> > >Most first-generation [meaning in the 1980s] car turbo systems were > >non-intercooled. Later ones were sometimes air-to-air intercooled. A few > >were liquid-to-air-intercooled. It roughly followed the "rule of 7" -- > >non-intercooled meant max boost about 7 psi, air intercooled meant max > >boost about 14 psi, liquid intercooled about 21 psi. > > Hmm... My non-intercooled 85 Buick GN ran 14PSI boost stock... the 86/87's > went to 17-18 PSI if conditions were favorable (intercooled) and the water > to air intercooled Syclone/Typhoon only ran 15 or so PSI... > The problem with a water to air intercooled turbo on MOST cars is they use > the engines own coolant... this means it's not cooler than 180 degrees once > the engine is up to temp... The Syclone.Typhoon used antifreez, but it was > a seperate circuit with it's own pump and mini radiator... It's problem was > the pump wasn't triggerred by the ECM until the temps got way up. > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Sat May 29 19:17:45 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:17:45 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: Anybody have any suggestions on how I can accurately and instantaneously measure intake air temperature? I have had home thermometers suggested, but have to question their accuracy and ability to respond quickly. Bear in mind I am NOT yet running EFI, and may not be for some time...so any suggestions y'all can provide will help most if they work as stand-alone systems. Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From ntisdale at voyager.net Sat May 29 19:36:05 1999 From: ntisdale at voyager.net (ntisdale) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:36:05 -0400 Subject: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Message-ID: Was just thinking a dual fuel setup, via various methods. Dual injectors would be ideal, but would be a lot of work which I'm not equipped to do (maybe now's the time to learn....). Proposed vehicle is 4.3l Syclone. What would be the expected result of having a small-bore fuel rail for port injectors, maybe 1/4" I.D. or so? Idea being, that a switch in input fuels would reach the last injector in the line as fast as possible. Would the flow rate be adequate for correct injector operation? Another thought I had was a dual rail feeding a common injector(s); if designed properly, would be minimal residual fuel for the higher-octane stuff to flush out when hi octane circuit was activated. I'm sure there's been some discussion of this topic; the advantages of running on lower than optimal octane fuel when higher octane is not needed (i.e., no boost) is just too attractive. What do you folks think? Many thanks for any feedback. Sincerely, Barry From clive at problem.tantech.com Sat May 29 19:57:28 1999 From: clive at problem.tantech.com (Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:57:28 -0400 Subject: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: > > >In order to run under like 12's or so on most tracks, at least in the > >US, you can't even run an IRS rear end! > > And where in the NHRA rules does it state this? it does I remeber seeing it IRS has to be replaces inder a specified time think it was in th 10 sec range Clive From shannen at grolen.com Sat May 29 23:36:00 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 19:36:00 -0400 Subject: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: Gary Derian wrote: > > Thanks for reminding me. I know about the Vette - just forgot. Actually, > only the latest C5 Vette does not use the driveshaft as an upper control > arm. That's the danger of using always or never. The Jaguar also has a > fixed halfshaft. "You should never use never, you always seem to get caught." ; ) I was thinking of the two upper trailing(?) arms on the c4 (and 81,82) Vette, which seems to take some of the load off the halfshafts. There is still no direct support provided for the top of the knuckle (in this design), but this seems to help. These rods have bushed bolt holes, much like a control arm, and when the bushings wear even a little, you feel some strange movement in the corners and on acceleration. C5 design finally catches up with other designs of 20+ yrs ago. > > Gary Derian > > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > > > > Those old Datsuns used regular U-joints and ball splines to accommodate > the > > > length change. All front wheel drive and independent rear suspension > rear > > > wheel drive cars use halfshafts that accommodate length change. > > > > Not Corvette up to 1980. FYI. > > Shannen From dapiper at one.net Sun May 30 00:09:30 1999 From: dapiper at one.net (David Piper) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 20:09:30 -0400 Subject: Butterfly valves part II Message-ID: If thats my post of the Fisher bfy Cv vs deg rotation, must use formula for compressible gas. Cv is universal flow factor defined = 1 for 1 gpm water at 1 psi press drop. Cg is Fisher's coeff for compressibles. Will post formulae on Tuesday from work. At 11:14 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: > >This is embarrassing, Doc been dancing around all night hoping someone would >send him a clue, but it hasn't happened (tha clue musk oil, stinks) >Anyway how do you use this chart?. >ie on a 2" pipe at 30d, how do you figure how much air is passing? >Grumpy > > > >| I scanned it and posted to efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming >| as "flowbrws.jpg" and "flow.jpg". The first is viewable and >| printable with a web browser. The second is a better quality >| one, but requires a nicer program (like Photoshop) to print on >| a single page. > later, > -greg > TurboDave From nwester at eidnet.org Sun May 30 00:43:22 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 20:43:22 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: I guess the most accurate way--and fastest is using a thermistor, like Fords' ACT or a GM IAT sensor. If you're just trying to find a spot for a sensor for accuracy, I'd use a TIF air probe--non surface contact, hooked to a DVOM. As the resistance changes, either way--the values can be looked up against existing charts for temperature readings. Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Willis To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 2:23 PM Subject: Intake Air Temperature > > Anybody have any suggestions on how I can accurately and instantaneously >measure intake air temperature? I have had home thermometers suggested, >but have to question their accuracy and ability to respond quickly. Bear >in mind I am NOT yet running EFI, and may not be for some time...so any >suggestions y'all can provide will help most if they work as stand-alone >systems. > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International > From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 30 01:01:35 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:01:35 -0400 Subject: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Message-ID: On several cars, I've tinkered with the was a noticeable inprovement going from 3/8" to 1/2". I can even imagine going smaller. The instantaneous demand when all the injectors opem is huge. Maybe given enough pressure it would work, but that would be the only "good" thing about it". Stock is like 30 lbs/hr. so 180 pounds per hour. figure 30 gals. 1/2 gal per min. at 80% duty cycle. 100 "beats" per sec., feeding 6 injectors. I'd like alot of reserve capacity for that. Just about totally opposite of a carb where the needle and seat is almost always "flowing" at WOT. Grumpy | Was just thinking a dual fuel setup, via various methods. Dual injectors | would be ideal, but would be a lot of work which I'm not equipped to do | (maybe now's the time to learn....). Proposed vehicle is 4.3l Syclone. | What would be the expected result of having a small-bore fuel rail for port | injectors, maybe 1/4" I.D. or so? Idea being, that a switch in input fuels | would reach the last injector in the line as fast as possible. Would the | flow rate be adequate for correct injector operation? Another thought I | had was a dual rail feeding a common injector(s); if designed properly, | would be minimal residual fuel for the higher-octane stuff to flush out | when hi octane circuit was activated. | I'm sure there's been some discussion of this topic; the advantages of | running on lower than optimal octane fuel when higher octane is not needed | (i.e., no boost) is just too attractive. | What do you folks think? Many thanks for any feedback. | Sincerely, Barry From vr6turbo at hotmail.com Sun May 30 02:15:27 1999 From: vr6turbo at hotmail.com (paul lim) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:15:27 -0400 Subject: Haltech F7 Info Needed Message-ID: I am considering purchasing a used Haltech F7 that was previously used on a 4 cylinder Honda. It has all sensors and harness, however no manual nor software. I am planning on using it on a 6 cylinder turbo application. I need to find out if this is a good unit and if it is easy to program. Can you still get support from Haltech and obtain latest firmware revisions? Please email me and let me know where I can get support and any relevant info. TIA Paul ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From parkert at geocities.com Sun May 30 02:16:36 1999 From: parkert at geocities.com (Tom Parker) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:16:36 -0400 Subject: Direct Injection Message-ID: Greg Hermann wrote: >, while the SU >>caburettors of the Rolls Royce would starve momentarily due to some sort of >>gee force effect. >> >I would bet that these pieces are the 3" (or so) SU's--Passini talked about >them a bit for use as a nearly ideal draw thru carb for turbocharging--he >said something along the lines of "With inlets the size of a sewer pipe and >needles with about the heft of a tommy bar!" I've never seen a picture but I read a description on the mini_list. Aparently they were about the size of a complete mini engine block! And for those that don't like SU's, I've found that they all have worn out throttle shafts which makes tuning them impossible due to air leaking in through the gap. You have to replace the throttle shaft and put bushes in the body and then they should be a lot better. -- Tom Parker - parkert at ihug.co.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ From claresnyder at home.com Sun May 30 02:40:29 1999 From: claresnyder at home.com (Clare Snyder) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:40:29 -0400 Subject: test Message-ID: disconnected ibm - testing @home connection From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 30 03:02:01 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:02:01 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: I have placed wiring diagrams + pinouts in the incoming directory. 1227165Vette.zip TPI up to 90 1227727Vette.zip TPI 90-91 16159278Vette1.zip 16159278Vette2.zip 1992-93 LT1 Vette Apologies for any duplicates. If I've uploaded redundant files, please let me know and I'll remove them. Shannen From ord at aei.ca Sun May 30 03:05:42 1999 From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:05:42 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: Depends on required accuracy... I like national LM34DZ - it outputs 10mV/degree F, doesn't require a fancy power supply, or any circuitry on the output, and they're cheap. They are good to around 1 celcius. Instantaneous is impossible, but with carefull design you should be able to get 15 second response from a semiconductor, RTD or TC in a fast flowing air stream. Be carefull with leads - this is one big source of error and delay. Keep the wires a fine as possible so they don't conduct hear to or away from the sensor. -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Willis To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 3:43 PM Subject: Intake Air Temperature > > Anybody have any suggestions on how I can accurately and instantaneously >measure intake air temperature? I have had home thermometers suggested, >but have to question their accuracy and ability to respond quickly. Bear >in mind I am NOT yet running EFI, and may not be for some time...so any >suggestions y'all can provide will help most if they work as stand-alone >systems. > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International > From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Sun May 30 03:34:04 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:34:04 -0400 Subject: Haltech F7 Info Needed Message-ID: http://www.haltech.com.au/index.htm I don't have any info for ya, but you can talk to these guys. Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: paul lim To: diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 12:30 AM Subject: Haltech F7 Info Needed >I am considering purchasing a used Haltech F7 that was previously used on a >4 cylinder Honda. It has all sensors and harness, however no manual nor >software. I am planning on using it on a 6 cylinder turbo application. > >I need to find out if this is a good unit and if it is easy to program. Can >you still get support from Haltech and obtain latest firmware revisions? > >Please email me and let me know where I can get support and any relevant >info. > >TIA > >Paul > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From rah at horizon.hit.net Sun May 30 03:42:14 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:42:14 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: The 93 Camaro uses the exat same computer as the 92-93 vette. At least the A4 one I am working on does. Roger On Sat, 29 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > I have placed wiring diagrams + pinouts in the incoming directory. > > 1227165Vette.zip TPI up to 90 > > 1227727Vette.zip TPI 90-91 > > 16159278Vette1.zip > 16159278Vette2.zip 1992-93 LT1 Vette > > Apologies for any duplicates. If I've uploaded redundant files, > please let me know and I'll remove them. > Shannen > > From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sun May 30 04:32:45 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:32:45 -0400 Subject: Ford info... Message-ID: Anyone know where FORD puts either the Build sheet or Option stickers in their vehicles? Specifically the explorers? Thanks, Dave =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From eclark at hoser.com Sun May 30 04:59:21 1999 From: eclark at hoser.com (eclark at hoser.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:59:21 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: My 93 Formula A4 also has the same computer, and same PROM as Roger's. -Eric On Sat, 29 May 1999, Roger Heflin wrote: > > The 93 Camaro uses the exat same computer as the 92-93 vette. At > least the A4 one I am working on does. > > > Roger > > On Sat, 29 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > I have placed wiring diagrams + pinouts in the incoming directory. > > > > 1227165Vette.zip TPI up to 90 > > > > 1227727Vette.zip TPI 90-91 > > > > 16159278Vette1.zip > > 16159278Vette2.zip 1992-93 LT1 Vette > > > > Apologies for any duplicates. If I've uploaded redundant files, > > please let me know and I'll remove them. > > Shannen > > > > > From memvive at globetrotter.qc.ca Sun May 30 07:04:53 1999 From: memvive at globetrotter.qc.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E9l=E8ne?= Villemure) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 03:04:53 -0400 Subject: Ford info... Message-ID: David, no, the only thing I know is where they put the transit papers when they go to scrapyard... MUHHAHAHAHAHAHA Sorry, I couldn't help it :) :) :) Helene David A. Cooley a ?crit: > Anyone know where FORD puts either the Build sheet or Option stickers in > their vehicles? > Specifically the explorers? > Thanks, > Dave > > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net > Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 30 13:01:15 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 09:01:15 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: That's a neat coincidence. I show 12 calibrations for the 93, A4, A/C, FED. emissions. Half of them have been superceded, but I have no official reasons as to why. Shannen eclark at hoser.com wrote: > > My 93 Formula A4 also has the same computer, and same PROM as Roger's. > > -Eric > > On Sat, 29 May 1999, Roger Heflin wrote: > > > > > The 93 Camaro uses the exat same computer as the 92-93 vette. At > > least the A4 one I am working on does. > > > > > > Roger > > > > On Sat, 29 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > > > I have placed wiring diagrams + pinouts in the incoming directory. > > > > > > 1227165Vette.zip TPI up to 90 > > > > > > 1227727Vette.zip TPI 90-91 > > > > > > 16159278Vette1.zip > > > 16159278Vette2.zip 1992-93 LT1 Vette > > > > > > Apologies for any duplicates. If I've uploaded redundant files, > > > please let me know and I'll remove them. > > > Shannen > > > > > > > > From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 30 13:55:28 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 09:55:28 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: Oh, how about S/B 92-336-6E S/B 47-65-25A They apply to a bunch of them. Grumpy | That's a neat coincidence. I show 12 calibrations for the 93, A4, | A/C, FED. emissions. | Half of them have been superceded, but I have no official reasons as | to why. | Shannen | > My 93 Formula A4 also has the same computer, and same PROM as Roger's. | > -Eric > > The 93 Camaro uses the exat same computer as the 92-93 vette. At | > > least the A4 one I am working on does. Roger From garfield at cyberlynk.com Sun May 30 14:06:10 1999 From: garfield at cyberlynk.com (Gar Willis) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 10:06:10 -0400 Subject: Temporary Hiatus due to MOVE Message-ID: Hey maties. Got several emails queued up from some of yous guys, so just wanted to let ya know that I'm not ignoring you, but am smack dab in the middle of a major move to AirSIG, Inc's new facilities at Castle Airport, so I probly won't be responding to emails or posts for another day or so. TTFN Gar From rah at horizon.hit.net Sun May 30 14:39:10 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 10:39:10 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: I have a question. If I wanted a copy of the updated prom what would I have to do? If I asked for the PROM and broadcast code would that get me the latest one? I do now that whien I had someone else tune my car originally (about 1.5 years ago) he did go and get the prom with the same broadcast code from a dealer. So would that prom have had all of the fixes from 1.5 years ago? Roger On Sun, 30 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Oh, how about > S/B 92-336-6E > S/B 47-65-25A > They apply to a bunch of them. > Grumpy > > > > | That's a neat coincidence. I show 12 calibrations for the 93, A4, > | A/C, FED. emissions. > | Half of them have been superceded, but I have no official reasons as > | to why. > | Shannen > > | > My 93 Formula A4 also has the same computer, and same PROM as Roger's. > | > -Eric > > > The 93 Camaro uses the exat same computer as the 92-93 vette. At > | > > least the A4 one I am working on does. > Roger > > > From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Sun May 30 14:45:57 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 10:45:57 -0400 Subject: Ford info... Message-ID: > Anyone know where FORD puts either the Build sheet or Option stickers in > their vehicles? > Specifically the explorers? When you arrive at the dealer, there's a 11x8.5" sticker on one of the passenger side windows... has the EPA rated mileage, options, features, etc. This and your invoice is all you get with Ford as far as I know. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Sun May 30 14:58:40 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 10:58:40 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: > Anybody have any suggestions on how I can accurately and instantaneously > measure intake air temperature? I have had home thermometers suggested, Well, your requirement if "instant" is a problem... thermistors as well as semiconductors take a "little time" to ramp up or ramp down if the temperature changes. This is because the thermistors are coated with an epoxy for strength and protection, and the semiconductors have the shell they are mounted in as a slight insulator. If you were to get one too room temperature, and whip it into the freezer while attached to a VOM, you'll the thermistor responds quickly, but not instantly. On a forced induction car, this might be a problem because when the boost kicks in, the air temp soars really quickly. GM, Ford, Chrysler use air temperature sensors that respond quickly, but also not instantly. Either its not "critical" to the operation of an EFI system, or their code compensates somehow. Hey, might considering using one of their sensors? Junkyard cheap too.... If you are simply trying to measure temperature in your intake while standing next to the car, that's a different story. You can drill a hole, stick in a grommet, and put a mercury thermometer into that, but again, its not the fastest responding thing in the world either. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Sun May 30 15:02:19 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:02:19 -0400 Subject: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Message-ID: > If you use cooling water from the cold side of the radiator, it will be a > lot cooler. Or a separate system. Actually, a separate cooling system Its clear to me you and Bruce are in co-hoots :) From nacelp at bright.net Sun May 30 15:04:47 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:04:47 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: It varies by dealership. I've worked in some where the Parts department ordered everything. Then also, in some where the service department ordered calibrations, thru the parts department. Often the "drivibility" man would have the latest info.. Doc | I have a question. | If I wanted a copy of the updated prom what would I have to do? If I | asked for the PROM and broadcast code would that get me the latest | one? I do now that whien I had someone else tune my car originally | (about 1.5 years ago) he did go and get the prom with the same | broadcast code from a dealer. So would that prom have had all of the | fixes from 1.5 years ago? | Roger From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Sun May 30 15:37:00 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:37:00 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: Why don't you think faster response times are available? Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Ord Millar To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 1:14 AM Subject: Re: Intake Air Temperature >Depends on required accuracy... I like national LM34DZ - it outputs >10mV/degree F, doesn't require a fancy power supply, or any circuitry on the >output, and they're cheap. They are good to around 1 celcius. > >Instantaneous is impossible, but with carefull design you should be able to >get 15 second response from a semiconductor, RTD or TC in a fast flowing air >stream. Be carefull with leads - this is one big source of error and delay. >Keep the wires a fine as possible so they don't conduct hear to or away from >the sensor. From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Sun May 30 16:04:40 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 12:04:40 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: > Why don't you think faster response times are available? While this is not to me... I'll respond :) While I'm sure technology has changed over the years, I've never seen a thermistor that responds instantly. Show me one, and I'd be more than happy to chance my view... I just haven't run across the right parts yet I guess. From an EFI standpoint, an "instant read" temp sensor would be idea... when the boost/temp goes way up, the temp sensor could follow suit, and the ECM could make real accurate calculations. From RRauscher at nni.com Sun May 30 18:19:50 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 14:19:50 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: For the fastest response time, the lowest possible thermal mass is required. The LM35's come in different packages, NatSemi has info in their app notes as to how to obtain the quickest response time from these devices. (If I remember right, it's through the leads). Thermisters also come in small glass packages, that are about the size of a 1/8w resister. Cheap from digi-key. I get the feeling that 'instantanous' is not really possible, and that we haven't qualified how close to 'instantanous' this device needs to respond . BobR. Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Why don't you think faster response times are available? > > While this is not to me... I'll respond :) > > While I'm sure technology has changed over the years, I've never seen a > thermistor that responds instantly. Show me one, and I'd be more than > happy to chance my view... I just haven't run across the right parts yet > I guess. From an EFI standpoint, an "instant read" temp sensor would be > idea... when the boost/temp goes way up, the temp sensor could follow > suit, and the ECM could make real accurate calculations. From efi at cardozo.org Sun May 30 20:19:58 1999 From: efi at cardozo.org (Al Lipper) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 16:19:58 -0400 Subject: EFI construction plans for ECU7 Message-ID: I've made some minor updates to the website with the plans for constructing your own EFI system. If anyone is interested in being part of a group parts order, let me know. So, check out: http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/ If you note any problems with the plans (or the web page), e-mail me. Thanks. Al From rwhughe at ev1.net Sun May 30 21:05:30 1999 From: rwhughe at ev1.net (Robert W. Hughes) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 17:05:30 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: > Instantaneous is impossible, but with carefull design you should be able to > get 15 second response from a semiconductor, RTD or TC in a fast flowing air > stream. The standard GM MAT sensor is at least this fast and probably cheaper and easier to interface. I have seen mine go from 120F to 249F (according to the scan tool) in 5-6 seconds. This is at 10psi boost and obviously without an intercooler. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering Houston, Texas rwhughe at ev1.net From darkmonahue at awwwsome.com Sun May 30 21:23:18 1999 From: darkmonahue at awwwsome.com (Aaron Willis) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 17:23:18 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: At 02:12 PM 5/30/99 -0700, you wrote: > >I get the feeling that 'instantanous' is not really possible, >and that we haven't qualified how close to 'instantanous' this >device needs to respond . > >BobR. > Bob, 'Need' isn't the word...just trying to get a handle on temps to evaluate air filter locations, intercooler efficiency, etc. Not launching any rockets with it - not today, anyway!! Thanks for the tips - Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From ord at aei.ca Sun May 30 21:31:39 1999 From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 17:31:39 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: I recently did a lot of worth with a temperature sensor in liquids - and a sensor in flowing liquid has a time constant of 5 seconds or so (time to reach 90% of the new value). The TC for most sheathed temperature sensors in air is 30-90 seconds. The problem is that dry air has low heat capacity compared to solids or liquids, and gases are poor conductors of heat. -----Original Message----- From: C. Brooks To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Intake Air Temperature >Why don't you think faster response times are available? > >Charles Brooks > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ord Millar >To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 1:14 AM >Subject: Re: Intake Air Temperature > > >>Depends on required accuracy... I like national LM34DZ - it outputs >>10mV/degree F, doesn't require a fancy power supply, or any circuitry on >the >>output, and they're cheap. They are good to around 1 celcius. >> >>Instantaneous is impossible, but with carefull design you should be able to >>get 15 second response from a semiconductor, RTD or TC in a fast flowing >air >>stream. Be carefull with leads - this is one big source of error and >delay. >>Keep the wires a fine as possible so they don't conduct hear to or away >from >>the sensor. > > From JRECPA at aol.com Sun May 30 22:09:02 1999 From: JRECPA at aol.com (JRECPA at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 18:09:02 -0400 Subject: Ford info... Message-ID: In a message dated 5/29/99 9:35:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time, n5xmt at bellsouth.net writes: << Anyone know where FORD puts either the Build sheet or Option stickers in their vehicles? Specifically the explorers? Thanks, Dave >> I have found the build sheets over the fuel tank on fords. James From rap at aci.net Sun May 30 22:45:57 1999 From: rap at aci.net (..) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 18:45:57 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: Or he can hop on down to his local Radio Shack and spend about $2 for their item #271-110A (10k ohm Thermistor). It scales pretty good from -50 deg C (-58 deg F.) to 110 deg C. (230 deg F.) and the rate of reaponse is pretty fair. This thermistor is a little bigger than a gain of sand with leads about 1/2 inch long. Carefully solder longer leads in place, covering the thermistor leads and solder joint with shrink wrap tubing to insulate them when thru.. You can use any decent digital VOM to check the resistance in Kohms to get the conversion to temp. Nice to have a couple made up ready for use on your workbench... rap rr wrote: > For the fastest response time, the lowest possible thermal mass > is required. > > The LM35's come in different packages, NatSemi has info in their > app notes as to how to obtain the quickest response time from these > devices. (If I remember right, it's through the leads). > > Thermisters also come in small glass packages, that are about > the size of a 1/8w resister. Cheap from digi-key. > > I get the feeling that 'instantanous' is not really possible, > and that we haven't qualified how close to 'instantanous' this > device needs to respond . > > BobR. > > Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > Why don't you think faster response times are available? > > > > While this is not to me... I'll respond :) > > > > While I'm sure technology has changed over the years, I've never seen a > > thermistor that responds instantly. Show me one, and I'd be more than > > happy to chance my view... I just haven't run across the right parts yet > > I guess. From an EFI standpoint, an "instant read" temp sensor would be > > idea... when the boost/temp goes way up, the temp sensor could follow > > suit, and the ECM could make real accurate calculations. From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 30 23:31:14 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 19:31:14 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: Roger Heflin wrote: > > I have a question. > > If I wanted a copy of the updated prom what would I have to do? If I > asked for the PROM and broadcast code would that get me the latest > one? I do now that whien I had someone else tune my car originally > (about 1.5 years ago) he did go and get the prom with the same > broadcast code from a dealer. So would that prom have had all of the > fixes from 1.5 years ago? > > Roger > Copy of newest prom.... My experiences have been that the service department has the quickest route to the latest prom part numbers. They can use your application or the BCC to find it. F-bodies appear to be linked to tire size. I've only seen a few other cars that list tire sizes in the prom description. The quality of the info you recieve depends on the guy running the software at the dealership. You can then take the part no to the parts dept. >From the parts angle, sometimes your BCC will yield a clear cut replacement, sometimes it will show a good number, sometimes it will be replaced by several choices which aren't clearly for your car. Juz depends. What's your BCC? If nothing new has been offered since 98, I can find out if it's the latest vers. and give you a part no. Shannen From RRauscher at nni.com Sun May 30 23:31:49 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 19:31:49 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: I'd recommend the National Semi LM35?? devices then. It's a three terminal semiconductor device that output's a voltage that reads as degrees C. +10mV of output per deg C. So 249 mv = 24.9 degree C temperature. Operates from 4 to 30 vdc. try http://www. natsemi or nat-semi .com >From surplus houses, can get 200mV LCD displays for under ten bucks... Need more info, just let me know. BobR. P.S. if anyone thinks a surplus electronic supplier list would help. I bet a bunch of us could post. Aaron Willis wrote: > > At 02:12 PM 5/30/99 -0700, you wrote: > > > >I get the feeling that 'instantanous' is not really possible, > >and that we haven't qualified how close to 'instantanous' this > >device needs to respond . > > > >BobR. > > > > Bob, > 'Need' isn't the word...just trying to get a handle on temps to evaluate > air filter locations, intercooler efficiency, etc. Not launching any > rockets with it - not today, anyway!! Thanks for the tips - > > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Sun May 30 23:32:53 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 19:32:53 -0400 Subject: g meter Message-ID: Circuit Cellar Inc. #107 june 99 has good article on the ADXL202 +-2 g accellerometer with 0.001 g resolution Even sensitive to going up and down hills (0.016 g per degree) Complete boards avaliable under $30 from Jameco and Crossbow. alex From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 30 23:47:19 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 19:47:19 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Oh, how about > S/B 92-336-6E Corvette. I'z talkin F-bod's > S/B 47-65-25A This one does. This is typical of GM. All of the calibrations that are superceded fit into the req's of this bulletin. Some of the old calibrations, which are not superceded, also fit the req's of the bulletin. And none of the prom #'s are directly linked to the bulletins. Another example of having to double check GM documentation. Shannen > They apply to a bunch of them. > Grumpy > > | That's a neat coincidence. I show 12 calibrations for the 93, A4, > | A/C, FED. emissions. > | Half of them have been superceded, but I have no official reasons as > | to why. > | Shannen > > | > My 93 Formula A4 also has the same computer, and same PROM as Roger's. > | > -Eric > > > The 93 Camaro uses the exat same computer as the 92-93 vette. At > | > > least the A4 one I am working on does. > Roger From shannen at grolen.com Sun May 30 23:53:39 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 19:53:39 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: Roger Heflin wrote: > > I have a question. > I do now that whien I had someone else tune my car originally > (about 1.5 years ago) he did go and get the prom with the same > broadcast code from a dealer. So would that prom have had all of the > fixes from 1.5 years ago? > > Roger > If the prom from the dealership had the same BCC as the prom taken out of your car, there were no changes between the two. If the ECM is original, and the 4 letter code on the label matches your prom, then you are running an original release prom. Any later fixes will come with a prom of a different BCC. HTH. Shannen From ord at aei.ca Mon May 31 00:42:51 1999 From: ord at aei.ca (Ord Millar) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:42:51 -0400 Subject: Ford info... Message-ID: There are a bunch of build sheets. They are all supposed to be removed at the factory, but often some are left on. Some people have found them under the rear bumper, passenger seat, fenderwell, under spare tire. This is for mustangs, don't know if this applies to Explorers too. >> Anyone know where FORD puts either the Build sheet or Option stickers in >> their vehicles? >> Specifically the explorers? > From dzorde at erggroup.com Mon May 31 00:52:01 1999 From: dzorde at erggroup.com (dzorde at erggroup.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:52:01 -0400 Subject: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps Message-ID: The last listing I saw for OZ avgas was 0.84g/l lead (very high) they are now going to move towards the FIA spec'd avgas. leaded over here is still around 0.23g/l, and believe it or not unleaded is 0.003g/l (but I guess what the public don't know won't hurt them). Racing unleaded is 0.0013g/l. Dan dzorde at erggroup.com "Todd....!!" on 29-05-99 05:03:16 AM Please respond to diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: (bcc: Dan Zorde/Transit/ERG_Group) Subject: Re: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps Hi David, Thanks for the info... However, as far as the lead content, buds said that the AVGas was kinda 'dry' and that I shouldn't run the AVGas too long so as to not burn the valves up... But if you read your source on the net, then it must be true, ey? lol LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm From rah at horizon.hit.net Mon May 31 01:28:27 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 21:28:27 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: On Sun, 30 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > Roger Heflin wrote: > > > > I have a question. > > > > If I wanted a copy of the updated prom what would I have to do? If I > > asked for the PROM and broadcast code would that get me the latest > > one? I do now that whien I had someone else tune my car originally > > (about 1.5 years ago) he did go and get the prom with the same > > broadcast code from a dealer. So would that prom have had all of the > > fixes from 1.5 years ago? > > > > Roger > > > Copy of newest prom.... > My experiences have been that the service department has the quickest > route to the latest prom part numbers. They can use your application > or the BCC to find it. F-bodies appear to be linked to tire size. > I've only seen a few other cars that list tire sizes in the prom > description. The quality of the info you recieve depends on the guy > running the software at the dealership. You can then take the part no > to the parts dept. > > >From the parts angle, sometimes your BCC will yield a clear cut > replacement, sometimes it will show a good > number, sometimes it will be replaced by several choices which aren't > clearly for your car. Juz depends. > What's your BCC? If nothing new has been offered since 98, I can find > out if it's the latest vers. and give you a part no. > Shannen > > BDZL is the broadcast code I have. The computer part no is the 16159278 computer. Are there any rev numbers actually in the prom data? Roger From sfeaver at cgocable.net Mon May 31 02:42:43 1999 From: sfeaver at cgocable.net (Scott Feaver) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 22:42:43 -0400 Subject: g meter Message-ID: Are you able to scan in that article? CCI Magazine isn't available anywhere around here, I haven't seen it in ages now. I thought they were going under a few years ago.. Thanks, Scott -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 3:16 PM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: g meter Circuit Cellar Inc. #107 june 99 has good article on the ADXL202 +-2 g accellerometer with 0.001 g resolution Even sensitive to going up and down hills (0.016 g per degree) Complete boards avaliable under $30 from Jameco and Crossbow. alex From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Mon May 31 02:50:40 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 22:50:40 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: I've done a little temp measurement for a DAQ project I know instantaneous is not a reality. I guess a better question would be "How many degrees per second do you need the sensor to change?" Lets call it "Thermal slew rate" :) I was using a GM MAT sensor with a heat gun and getting 40-50 degrees per second. If that helps any. Unfortunately I don't have a GM part number for you guys... Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Ord Millar To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 8:37 PM Subject: Re: Intake Air Temperature >I recently did a lot of worth with a temperature sensor in liquids - and a >sensor in flowing liquid has a time constant of 5 seconds or so (time to >reach 90% of the new value). The TC for most sheathed temperature sensors >in air is 30-90 seconds. The problem is that dry air has low heat capacity >compared to solids or liquids, and gases are poor conductors of heat. > From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 31 02:51:59 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 22:51:59 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: Roger Heflin wrote: > BDZL is the broadcast code I have. The computer part no is the > 16159278 computer. Are there any rev numbers actually in the prom > data? > Roger Your prom, part no. 16189599 has been replaced by 16216379, BCC BNXF. According to the bulletin found by Dr. P. (thanks), this is to reduce part throttle chuggle or surge at 1500-2000 rpm, 50-60 mph, light acceleration. I do not know of any revision data within the prom. Some charts use the ALDL Scan ID to determine the current prom, for xref against latest offering. Shannen From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 31 03:01:00 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:01:00 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old BCC Info. Message-ID: | > > I have a question. | > > If I wanted a copy of the updated prom what would I have to do? If I | > > asked for the PROM and broadcast code would that get me the latest | > > one? I do now that whien I had someone else tune my car originally | > > (about 1.5 years ago) he did go and get the prom with the same | > > broadcast code from a dealer. So would that prom have had all of the | > > fixes from 1.5 years ago? | > Copy of newest prom.... | > My experiences have been that the service department has the quickest | > route to the latest prom part numbers. They can use your application | > or the BCC to find it. F-bodies appear to be linked to tire size. | > I've only seen a few other cars that list tire sizes in the prom | > description. The quality of the info you recieve depends on the guy | > running the software at the dealership. You can then take the part no | > to the parts dept. | > >From the parts angle, sometimes your BCC will yield a clear cut | > replacement, sometimes it will show a good | > number, sometimes it will be replaced by several choices which aren't | > clearly for your car. Juz depends. | > What's your BCC? If nothing new has been offered since 98, I can find | > out if it's the latest vers. and give you a part no. | > Shannen | BDZL is the broadcast code I have. The computer part no is the | 16159278 computer. Are there any rev numbers actually in the prom | data? | Roger Just for the lack of anything else, to do I ran some numbers. Your BDZL (partno 16189599) "maybe" superceeded to a BNXF (partno 16216379). I happen to have a BDZP (partno 16189610) Grumpy From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 31 03:15:49 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:15:49 -0400 Subject: Knock sensor thread pitch? Message-ID: Jason_Leone at amat.com wrote: > > Anybody know what the available thread pitch is on a standard single wire GM > knock sensor? 1/8 NPT? I've seen 10mm metric thread sensors on a Saturn (I'm running this on my crossfire engine), and pipe thread sensors on V-8 engines. Shannen > > Reason I ask is this...I'm using an Electromotive TEC II on my VW VR6 engine, > but the TEC II wants one single wire GM knock sensor. I currently have dual > Bosch knock sensors (one per bank of cylinders) that came with the factory > Motronic 2.9 system (but they aren't doing anything, obviously). The Bosch knock > sensors are multi wire, and not single. I'll have to check my Bentley Manual > wiring diagrams, to figure out the Bosch knock sensor wiring (-gnd, shield, > +pos, etc.). I'm wondering if the tapped threads in the VR6 block will accept a > GM knock sensor...perhaps the Bosch knock sensors are a metric thread (12mm or > so)? > > Another thought is to use a Bosch single wire knock sensor from the late '80s > and early '90s 4 cyl/8v VWs. What do you guys think? > > Oh yeah, "Todd...!!" gets the award for the most posts in a DIY_EFI digest. Get > to work Todd, go buy some foreclosures or something! =) > > Jason > '93 SLC From eclark at hoser.com Mon May 31 03:25:31 1999 From: eclark at hoser.com (eclark at hoser.com) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:25:31 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: On Sun, 30 May 1999, Roger Heflin wrote: > BDZL is the broadcast code I have. The computer part no is the > 16159278 computer. Are there any rev numbers actually in the prom > data? Mine has BDZL also, and it is labeled on the ECM, so i suspect that it has never been updated. -Eric From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 31 03:30:07 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:30:07 -0400 Subject: Intake Air Temperature Message-ID: Oww, new buzz word. This thermal slew rate changes by part number. Like some CTS exchange just fine with some IAT, but the CTS are way slower, changing in response to temp.. Sneezy | I've done a little temp measurement for a DAQ project I know instantaneous | is not a reality. I guess a better question would be "How many degrees per | second do you need the sensor to change?" Lets call it "Thermal slew rate" | :) | | I was using a GM MAT sensor with a heat gun and getting 40-50 degrees per | second. If that helps any. Unfortunately I don't have a GM part number for | you guys... | | Charles Brooks | | -----Original Message----- | From: Ord Millar | To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 8:37 PM | Subject: Re: Intake Air Temperature | | | >I recently did a lot of worth with a temperature sensor in liquids - and a | >sensor in flowing liquid has a time constant of 5 seconds or so (time to | >reach 90% of the new value). The TC for most sheathed temperature sensors | >in air is 30-90 seconds. The problem is that dry air has low heat capacity | >compared to solids or liquids, and gases are poor conductors of heat. | > | | From rah at horizon.hit.net Mon May 31 03:50:10 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:50:10 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: On Sun, 30 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > Roger Heflin wrote: > > BDZL is the broadcast code I have. The computer part no is the > > 16159278 computer. Are there any rev numbers actually in the prom > > data? > > > Roger > > Your prom, part no. 16189599 has been replaced by 16216379, BCC > BNXF. According to the bulletin found by Dr. P. (thanks), this is to > reduce part throttle chuggle or surge at 1500-2000 rpm, 50-60 mph, > light acceleration. > I already fixed that one. That was the TCC lockup problem, it gets much worse with a bigger cam. It would be interesting to see if their fix was similar to mine. > I do not know of any revision data within the prom. Some charts use > the ALDL Scan ID to determine the current prom, for xref against > latest offering. > Shannen > > Roger From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 31 03:50:37 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:50:37 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Todd....!! wrote: > > I've heard that most s.b. chev 4-bolt main blocks had forged cranks, but > this hasn't been sildified/proven yet to me anyways, anybody? > > I'm Just a wonderinnnnnnn fooooooooooooooo.............!! > > LATER! > > Todd....!! > Bad rumor to put any faith in. Many 4 bolt Chevys are cast crank. Post 86, only steel cranks are in LT1, LT4, and ZZx series engines (ok, ok, smallblock, 5.7, gen II engines). Also use powdered connecting rods, prone to sudden failure rather than bending, but much stronger until they break. ; ) Ligenfelter Perf. Engineering is selling some of this stuff that they pulled at low mileage to build some stronger engines. If you're tracking down rumors, ever hear of the 1969 4 bolt 327 Chebbie? Rumors are that it was a Canadian built engine. Shannen From rah at horizon.hit.net Mon May 31 03:51:06 1999 From: rah at horizon.hit.net (Roger Heflin) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:51:06 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old BCC Info. Message-ID: On Sun, 30 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > | > > I have a question. > | > > If I wanted a copy of the updated prom what would I have to do? If I > | > > asked for the PROM and broadcast code would that get me the latest > | > > one? I do now that whien I had someone else tune my car originally > | > > (about 1.5 years ago) he did go and get the prom with the same > | > > broadcast code from a dealer. So would that prom have had all of the > | > > fixes from 1.5 years ago? > | > Copy of newest prom.... > | > My experiences have been that the service department has the quickest > | > route to the latest prom part numbers. They can use your application > | > or the BCC to find it. F-bodies appear to be linked to tire size. > | > I've only seen a few other cars that list tire sizes in the prom > | > description. The quality of the info you recieve depends on the guy > | > running the software at the dealership. You can then take the part no > | > to the parts dept. > | > >From the parts angle, sometimes your BCC will yield a clear cut > | > replacement, sometimes it will show a good > | > number, sometimes it will be replaced by several choices which aren't > | > clearly for your car. Juz depends. > | > What's your BCC? If nothing new has been offered since 98, I can find > | > out if it's the latest vers. and give you a part no. > | > Shannen > | BDZL is the broadcast code I have. The computer part no is the > | 16159278 computer. Are there any rev numbers actually in the prom > | data? > | Roger > > Just for the lack of anything else, to do I ran some numbers. > Your BDZL (partno 16189599) "maybe" superceeded to a BNXF (partno 16216379). > I happen to have a BDZP (partno 16189610) > Grumpy I appear to have a copy of BDZP, so I will check and see how it differs. Roger From cptnmidnight at wa.freei.net Mon May 31 03:55:46 1999 From: cptnmidnight at wa.freei.net (Jonathan) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:55:46 -0400 Subject: gm 1227302, need info Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE966C.25F37860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just pulled a 7302 out of a cavalier z24 2.8 v6 and was wondering if = anyone has played with one ,but my main question is if I can recal easy = enough to install this computer (mpfi 2.8) on a 3.8 TBI ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE966C.25F37860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just pulled a 7302 out of a = cavalier z24 2.8=20 v6 and was wondering if anyone has played with one ,but my main question = is if I=20 can recal easy enough to install this computer (mpfi 2.8) on a 3.8=20 TBI
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE966C.25F37860-- From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Mon May 31 03:59:42 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:59:42 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: On Sun, 30 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > > If you're tracking down rumors, ever hear of the 1969 4 bolt 327 > Chebbie? Rumors are that it was a Canadian built engine. Sounds like the Nova 327-325HP engine. Same 4 inch 4 bolt block as the 350 etc. From dynastydan at worldnet.att.net Mon May 31 04:00:23 1999 From: dynastydan at worldnet.att.net (Dan Plaskett) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:00:23 -0400 Subject: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01BEAAEF.F0A36BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I spent the day at the junk yard and got an entire wiring harness out of = a 88 Cutlass and a ecm 1227727 for $10.48. I am now about ready to = start converting my 61 Corvette to a TPI. I still need a knock sensor, = and I'm not sure what to do about the throttle position sensor, etc. = What do I need to hook up so that this thing will run in a closed loop? = Everything, or are there sensors that I can do without? Thanks for the continued help. Dan Plaskett ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01BEAAEF.F0A36BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well,
 
I spent the day at the junk yard and got an entire = wiring=20 harness out of a 88 Cutlass and a ecm 1227727 for $10.48.  I am now = about=20 ready to start converting my 61 Corvette to a TPI.  I still need a = knock=20 sensor, and I'm not sure what to do about the throttle position sensor,=20 etc.  What do I need to hook up so that this thing will run in a = closed=20 loop?  Everything, or are there sensors that I can do = without?
 
Thanks for the continued help.
 
Dan Plaskett
------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01BEAAEF.F0A36BA0-- From AL8001 at aol.com Mon May 31 04:00:28 1999 From: AL8001 at aol.com (AL8001 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:00:28 -0400 Subject: Ford info.Build sheet or Option stickers Message-ID: Tucked under a seat between the springs and padding is a popular place for most Fords. Harold From nwester at eidnet.org Mon May 31 04:02:06 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:02:06 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: Post the broadcast code that you have--I can check out the past and present PROM updates for your rig...I'll need vehicle year and serial number, of course !! Lyndon IPTECH -Original Message----- From: Roger Heflin To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Some new, some old > >I have a question. > >If I wanted a copy of the updated prom what would I have to do? If I >asked for the PROM and broadcast code would that get me the latest >one? I do now that whien I had someone else tune my car originally >(about 1.5 years ago) he did go and get the prom with the same >broadcast code from a dealer. So would that prom have had all of the >fixes from 1.5 years ago? > > Roger > >On Sun, 30 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > >> >> Oh, how about >> S/B 92-336-6E >> S/B 47-65-25A >> They apply to a bunch of them. >> Grumpy >> >> >> >> | That's a neat coincidence. I show 12 calibrations for the 93, A4, >> | A/C, FED. emissions. >> | Half of them have been superceded, but I have no official reasons as >> | to why. >> | Shannen >> >> | > My 93 Formula A4 also has the same computer, and same PROM as Roger's. >> | > -Eric >> > > The 93 Camaro uses the exat same computer as the 92-93 vette. At >> | > > least the A4 one I am working on does. >> Roger >> >> >> > > From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 31 04:11:34 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:11:34 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: Todd....!! wrote: > > Hey Fred, > > I hear ya about the chev engine's, haven't EVER even seen a s.b. or b.b. > forged crank.... all I've ever seen and/or used were all CAST units! > > And forged rods? forget about it unless ya go to Mr. Pink... > For two years that I know of, there were "Green" rods in a particular sb chevy. Hint, it was the only factory production smallblock with a 10k redline. Pre 67, small journal, small block v8 were all forged cranks. 1968,69 350, some pickup engines were forged. (I have two, have sold one additional.) 67 engines could be either way, cast or forged crank. Also, there was a 68 or 69 large journal 307 or 327 offered with forged crank, tho I don't remember the details. Just remember going to a swap meet with a guy who went ape over finding one. Shannen From jeeperaz at bigfoot.com Mon May 31 04:26:35 1999 From: jeeperaz at bigfoot.com (Larry Maggio) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:26:35 -0400 Subject: Any Jeep owners? Message-ID: Looking for any Jeep CJ or YJ owners who have swapped in a EFI'ed 350. Larry From sfeaver at cgocable.net Mon May 31 04:58:27 1999 From: sfeaver at cgocable.net (Scott Feaver) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:58:27 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old BCC Info. Message-ID: Is there a site somewhere that lists this info? Or is it something that you've got? If so, can you check BCC ARUT. For a 91 Sunbird 3.1V6, 7730 ECM. Thanks, Scott -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Heflin Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 11:51 PM To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Some new, some old BCC Info. On Sun, 30 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > | > > I have a question. > | > > If I wanted a copy of the updated prom what would I have to do? If I > | > > asked for the PROM and broadcast code would that get me the latest > | > > one? I do now that whien I had someone else tune my car originally > | > > (about 1.5 years ago) he did go and get the prom with the same > | > > broadcast code from a dealer. So would that prom have had all of the > | > > fixes from 1.5 years ago? > | > Copy of newest prom.... > | > My experiences have been that the service department has the quickest > | > route to the latest prom part numbers. They can use your application > | > or the BCC to find it. F-bodies appear to be linked to tire size. > | > I've only seen a few other cars that list tire sizes in the prom > | > description. The quality of the info you recieve depends on the guy > | > running the software at the dealership. You can then take the part no > | > to the parts dept. > | > >From the parts angle, sometimes your BCC will yield a clear cut > | > replacement, sometimes it will show a good > | > number, sometimes it will be replaced by several choices which aren't > | > clearly for your car. Juz depends. > | > What's your BCC? If nothing new has been offered since 98, I can find > | > out if it's the latest vers. and give you a part no. > | > Shannen > | BDZL is the broadcast code I have. The computer part no is the > | 16159278 computer. Are there any rev numbers actually in the prom > | data? > | Roger > > Just for the lack of anything else, to do I ran some numbers. > Your BDZL (partno 16189599) "maybe" superceeded to a BNXF (partno 16216379). > I happen to have a BDZP (partno 16189610) > Grumpy I appear to have a copy of BDZP, so I will check and see how it differs. Roger From gervais at rtrman.engr.sgi.com Mon May 31 06:49:07 1999 From: gervais at rtrman.engr.sgi.com (Joe Gervais) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 02:49:07 -0400 Subject: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion Message-ID: On May 30, 10:58pm, Dan Plaskett wrote: > Subject: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion > I spent the day at the junk yard and got an entire wiring harness out of a > 88 Cutlass and a ecm 1227727 for $10.48. I am now about ready to start > converting my 61 Corvette to a TPI. I still need a knock sensor, and I'm > not sure what to do about the throttle position sensor, etc. What do I need > to hook up so that this thing will run in a closed loop? Everything, or are > there sensors that I can do without? Dan, Glad to see someone else bringing modern fuel injection to a '61. I swapped most of a '93 Vette under my '61. Paul Newman did my chassis, and it's orders of magnitude better than what Chevy designed back in '53. I've got a pretty comprehensive web site you'll want to take a look at - http://reality.sgi.com/gervais/bodyoff.html If you haven't already, get a helm manual for the donor platform. You'll want to make sure your sensors are matched to the '727 ECM you're running. Some folks doing LT1/LT4 swaps have run into issues because the early LT1s used a different impedance knock sensor than the later LT1s. Don't know if TPI has similar issues, but I wouldn't doubt it. Dal Slabough at Lambert Pontiac Buick (800) 711-2793 is a great source for parts. He sells any GM part and Helm manuals at 5-10% over cost. Good Luck. Joe -- _________________________________________________________________________ Joe Gervais gervais at sgi.com Product Line Manager (650) 933-7479 voice High Performance Networking (650) 932-7479 fax SGI www.sgi.com 1600 Amphitheater Parkway, Mail Stop 855, Mountain View, CA 94043 From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 31 09:28:29 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 05:28:29 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: eclark at hoser.com wrote: > > On Sun, 30 May 1999, Roger Heflin wrote: > > > BDZL is the broadcast code I have. The computer part no is the > > 16159278 computer. Are there any rev numbers actually in the prom > > data? > > Mine has BDZL also, and it is labeled on the ECM, so i suspect that it has > never been updated. > > -Eric Right you are. Have you experienced chuggle-itis? Shannen From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 31 09:41:19 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 05:41:19 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old BCC Info. Message-ID: Scott Feaver wrote: > > Is there a site somewhere that lists this info? Yes. This site lists info for 93 and newer. There may be something for older cars also, but I haven't looked for it. http://calid.gm.com/vci/ > Or is it something that > you've got? I'm using another source for my info. If so, can you check BCC ARUT. For a 91 Sunbird 3.1V6, 7730 > ECM. You're 2 chips down. The latest vers, part no 16190140, bcc BFAK/0142 was released in August of 93 to cure stalling and cold start issues. > > Thanks, > Scott You betcha. Have a nice day. Shannen > From shannen at grolen.com Mon May 31 09:48:25 1999 From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 05:48:25 -0400 Subject: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion Message-ID: Dan Plaskett wrote: > > Well, > > I spent the day at the junk yard and got an entire wiring harness out of a 88 Cutlass and a ecm 1227727 for $10.48. ^^^^^ Yipes! Either you're a hell of a buyer, or you've found a killer wrecking yard. That yard wouldn't happen to be in New England, would it? Shannen From geoffsue at one.net.au Mon May 31 10:14:40 1999 From: geoffsue at one.net.au (Geffro) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 06:14:40 -0400 Subject: Prom burners Message-ID: Hi folks I've been searching the diy--efi website without much luck Have read prog 101 but i dont understand any of it eg The PROM has tables and some program code. It maps into processor space from 0xd000 to 0xdfff. The ROM appears in the processor space from 0xe000 to 0xffff. Data space in the PROM is from 0x000 to 0x616. Code starts at 0x617 and continues to the end of the PROM, 0xfff. So to learn this where do i go ? I have collected a few proms that I'd like to read so can you good folk tell me what I need Is a prom reader an emulator and burner?cause i'd like to buy one whatever so i can start to work thiis out Cheers Geoff From wenning.motorsport at t-online.de Mon May 31 12:08:01 1999 From: wenning.motorsport at t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 08:08:01 -0400 Subject: g meter Message-ID: Scott Feaver schrieb: > Are you able to scan in that article? CCI Magazine isn't available anywhere > around here, I haven't seen it in ages now. I thought they were going under > a few years ago.. Have a look at "www.xbow.com" and you?ll find more information about the evaluation board for this acceleration sensor which comes with a pretty good software. Regards Alex Wenning From pford at qnx.com Mon May 31 12:53:43 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 08:53:43 -0400 Subject: EFI construction plans for ECU7 Message-ID: Previously, you (Al Lipper) wrote: where do I send the cheque? ( how much??) > I've made some minor updates to the website with the plans for constructing > your own EFI system. If anyone is interested in being part of a group > parts order, let me know. So, check out: > > http://members.aol.com/ALIPPER/ > > If you note any problems with the plans (or the web page), e-mail me. Thanks. > > Al > -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From dynastydan at worldnet.att.net Mon May 31 13:35:17 1999 From: dynastydan at worldnet.att.net (Dan Plaskett) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:35:17 -0400 Subject: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion Message-ID: Nope, the good old Midwest, Kansas City. It was a heck of a deal. I'd called out there previously and they quoted me $65 for the parts, but they had a 1/2 price sale Sat, Sun & Mon. Even at $32.50 I figured it was a great deal, so I about fell over when they said 10 bucks. Maybe they felt pity on me seeing me out there all day trying to get the harness out in as close to one piece as I could. I did pretty well until I got to the main bundle at the firewall, but I have some twintabs and I was able to mark all the wires as I cut them so I can put them back together correctly. If anyone is interested I am keeping a photo log of the conversion project to set up on a web site. It isn't up yet but I'll post the URL when it's up. Dan Plaskett -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 5:31 AM Subject: Re: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion >Dan Plaskett wrote: >> >> Well, >> >> I spent the day at the junk yard and got an entire wiring harness >out of a 88 Cutlass and a ecm 1227727 for $10.48. > ^^^^^ >Yipes! Either you're a hell of a buyer, or you've found a killer >wrecking yard. That yard wouldn't happen to be in New England, would >it? >Shannen > > From jimd at vcc.bc.ca Mon May 31 13:45:40 1999 From: jimd at vcc.bc.ca (Jim Davies) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:45:40 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 now ESB Message-ID: On Mon, 31 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > Pre 67, small journal, small block v8 were all forged cranks. GM listed, and I have seen both cast and forged ESB cranks. FWIW, GM had two main block castings, a 283 and 327 type. Some 283s started out as 327 castings, with the block reliefs for the 3.25 stroke crank. From bedgew at ix.netcom.com Mon May 31 13:49:00 1999 From: bedgew at ix.netcom.com (Bill Edgeworth) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:49:00 -0400 Subject: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion Message-ID: That's about what I paid here in WA (for each piece) at the U-pull Bill Edgeworth Shannen Durphey wrote: > Dan Plaskett wrote: > > > > Well, > > > > I spent the day at the junk yard and got an entire wiring harness > out of a 88 Cutlass and a ecm 1227727 for $10.48. > ^^^^^ > Yipes! Either you're a hell of a buyer, or you've found a killer > wrecking yard. That yard wouldn't happen to be in New England, would > it? > Shannen From nwester at eidnet.org Mon May 31 14:21:18 1999 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:21:18 -0400 Subject: g meter Message-ID: Check out www.pcdyno.com --he's got the software and everything done for acceleration runs with a laptop. Works great. Lyndon IPTECH -----Original Message----- From: Scott Feaver To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 10:17 PM Subject: RE: g meter >Are you able to scan in that article? CCI Magazine isn't available anywhere >around here, I haven't seen it in ages now. I thought they were going under >a few years ago.. > >Thanks, >Scott > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu >[mailto:owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of >xxalexx at ix.netcom.com >Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 3:16 PM >To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: g meter > >Circuit Cellar Inc. #107 june 99 has good article on the >ADXL202 +-2 g accellerometer with 0.001 g resolution >Even sensitive to going up and down hills (0.016 g per degree) >Complete boards avaliable under $30 from Jameco >and Crossbow. >alex > > From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 31 14:45:43 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:45:43 -0400 Subject: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Plaskett To: Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 9:33 AM Subject: Re: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion I don't need the photos, but could use a couple of those bargain deals, man you must be living right!!. Doc | Nope, the good old Midwest, Kansas City. It was a heck of a deal. I'd | called out there previously and they quoted me $65 for the parts, but they | had a 1/2 price sale Sat, Sun & Mon. Even at $32.50 I figured it was a | great deal, so I about fell over when they said 10 bucks. Maybe they felt | pity on me seeing me out there all day trying to get the harness out in as | close to one piece as I could. I did pretty well until I got to the main | bundle at the firewall, but I have some twintabs and I was able to mark all | the wires as I cut them so I can put them back together correctly. If | anyone is interested I am keeping a photo log of the conversion project to | set up on a web site. It isn't up yet but I'll post the URL when it's up. | | Dan Plaskett | | -----Original Message----- | From: Shannen Durphey | To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu | Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 5:31 AM | Subject: Re: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion | | | >Dan Plaskett wrote: | >> | >> Well, | >> | >> I spent the day at the junk yard and got an entire wiring harness | >out of a 88 Cutlass and a ecm 1227727 for $10.48. | > ^^^^^ | >Yipes! Either you're a hell of a buyer, or you've found a killer | >wrecking yard. That yard wouldn't happen to be in New England, would | >it? | >Shannen | > | > | From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Mon May 31 15:00:18 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:00:18 -0400 Subject: Any Jeep owners? Message-ID: > Looking for any Jeep CJ or YJ owners who have swapped in a EFI'ed 350. I'm in the middle of doing that right now... though its a 305... but same concept. The project is on hold because Mike (owner of said jeep) ran out of cash. From RRauscher at nni.com Mon May 31 15:01:58 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:01:58 -0400 Subject: Prom burners Message-ID: Geffro wrote: > > Hi folks > I've been searching the diy--efi website without much luck > Have read prog 101 but i dont understand any of it > eg Yes, this whole thing can be daunting at first, but gets easier as you learn. > > The PROM has tables and some program code. It maps into processor space > from 0xd000 to 0xdfff. The ROM appears in the processor space from 0xe000 to > 0xffff. Data space in the PROM is from 0x000 to 0x616. Code starts at 0x617 > and continues to the end of the PROM, 0xfff. Sounds like the '747 ecm, good place to start. Try not to get hung up on what is where. On this ecm, the tables are in the eprom, along with some code. The rest of the code is in ROM. Other ecms, it's all in the eprom. > > So to learn this where do i go ? > I have collected a few proms that I'd like to read so can you good folk > tell me what I need > Is a prom reader an emulator and burner?cause i'd like to buy one > whatever so i can start to work thiis out > Cheers > Geoff A prom burner will allow you to read and burn eproms, no emulation. Once a prom is read (see the ftp site index for a bunch of bins), you can use promedit and a corresponding .ecu file to 'look' at the tables (see incoming for SPK747.ECU and promedit.zip, i think). You'll mostly be changing tables to tune a prom, so to speak. BobR. -- From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Mon May 31 15:05:23 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:05:23 -0400 Subject: g meter Message-ID: Have not yet read the article on making your own scanner so it could take a while. web page is http://www.circuitcellar.inc They have past articles on CD's I recall they have a large FTP Also this issue a nice webserver data logger, and a article by the famous electronics DIY, Jan Axelson A few years they did a series on DIY fuel injection for a motorcycle engine in C++ Computer Application Jounal went under a few years ago Took over my a scam artist named Gates (not Bill) of Midnight Engineer fame. Also had a Robotics mag. He still ows me $100 if you find him, let me know! Alex > Are you able to scan in that article? CCI Magazine isn't available anywhere > around here, I haven't seen it in ages now. I thought they were going under > a few years ago.. > > Thanks, > Scott > > Circuit Cellar Inc. #107 june 99 has good article on the > ADXL202 +-2 g accellerometer with 0.001 g resolution > Even sensitive to going up and down hills (0.016 g per degree) > Complete boards avaliable under $30 from Jameco > and Crossbow. > alex > > > From RRauscher at nni.com Mon May 31 15:05:52 1999 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:05:52 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 now ESB Message-ID: Jim Davies wrote: > > On Mon, 31 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > Pre 67, small journal, small block v8 were all forged cranks. > > GM listed, and I have seen both cast and forged ESB cranks. FWIW, GM had > two main block castings, a 283 and 327 type. Some 283s started out as 327 > castings, with the block reliefs for the 3.25 stroke crank. A 283 in a 327 block had those nice thick cylinder walls to make lots of power with... Never forget the sound of a 287 (30 ovr), at 7500 rpm, yeooooo. BobR. -- From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Mon May 31 15:30:53 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:30:53 -0400 Subject: Anybody into SDM ? Message-ID: Would like to meet a SDM, must be under 3 yrs old. One of 6 million GM Sensing and Diagnostic Modules This year models could make a nice data logger. Any part numbers, price, where located on car, wiring diagrams? Or they in GM manuals and diagrams? Front page article in Sundays NY Times. alex From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 31 15:40:06 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:40:06 -0400 Subject: gm 1227302, need info Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01BEAB5A.68FA6800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just pulled a 7302 out of a cavalier z24 2.8 v6 and was wondering if = anyone has played with one ,but my main question is if I can recal easy = enough to install this computer (mpfi 2.8) on a 3.8 TBI Is the 3.8, a single or dual throtte Body if a dual (2 butterflies), = I'd look real close at using a 1227747. It's the topic of the = programming 101, and lots of info out on it. Going from TPI to TBI = with one ecm is not often done other than with single Throttle body = applications, IFAIK. Grumpy ------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01BEAB5A.68FA6800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just pulled a 7302 out of a = cavalier z24 2.8=20 v6 and was wondering if anyone has played with one ,but my main = question is if=20 I can recal easy enough to install this computer (mpfi 2.8) on a 3.8=20 TBI
 
Is the 3.8, a single or dual throtte Body if a = dual (2=20 butterflies), I'd look real close at using a 1227747.  It's the = topic of=20 the programming 101, and lots of info out on it.   Going = from TPI to=20 TBI with one ecm is not often done other than with single Throttle = body=20 applications, IFAIK.
Grumpy
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01BEAB5A.68FA6800-- From dynastydan at worldnet.att.net Mon May 31 15:56:27 1999 From: dynastydan at worldnet.att.net (Dan Plaskett) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:56:27 -0400 Subject: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion Message-ID: Joe, What a fantastic site. You really did it right. How is she running now? Do you plan on going to Bowling Green in September? I'd love to see your car. If you don't mind I'd like to keep in touch and pick your brain and your experience in my conversion. I'm not going to be quite as ambitious as you were with the suspension and chassis modification but after I get the TPI installed I would like to upgrade the brakes and steering components. I've seen some conversions to add power steering and disc brakes. Did you get your VATS problem solved? That's one thing I didn't even think of. I'm not sure I'll have that problem since my computer and harness came out of an 88 Cutlass. Thanks for sharing your wonderful site. Dan Plaskett 61 Red Vette soon to be TPI -----Original Message----- From: Joe Gervais To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 1:59 AM Subject: Re: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion >On May 30, 10:58pm, Dan Plaskett wrote: >> Subject: 61 Corvette TPI Conversion > >> I spent the day at the junk yard and got an entire wiring harness out of a >> 88 Cutlass and a ecm 1227727 for $10.48. I am now about ready to start >> converting my 61 Corvette to a TPI. I still need a knock sensor, and I'm >> not sure what to do about the throttle position sensor, etc. What do I need >> to hook up so that this thing will run in a closed loop? Everything, or are >> there sensors that I can do without? > >Dan, > >Glad to see someone else bringing modern fuel injection to a '61. I swapped >most of a '93 Vette under my '61. Paul Newman did my chassis, and it's orders >of magnitude better than what Chevy designed back in '53. I've got a pretty >comprehensive web site you'll want to take a look at - > > http://reality.sgi.com/gervais/bodyoff.html > >If you haven't already, get a helm manual for the donor platform. You'll want >to make sure your sensors are matched to the '727 ECM you're running. Some >folks doing LT1/LT4 swaps have run into issues because the early LT1s used a >different impedance knock sensor than the later LT1s. Don't know if TPI has >similar issues, but I wouldn't doubt it. > >Dal Slabough at Lambert Pontiac Buick (800) 711-2793 is a great source for >parts. He sells any GM part and Helm manuals at 5-10% over cost. > >Good Luck. > >Joe > >-- >_________________________________________________________________________ >Joe Gervais gervais at sgi.com >Product Line Manager (650) 933-7479 voice >High Performance Networking (650) 932-7479 fax > >SGI www.sgi.com >1600 Amphitheater Parkway, Mail Stop 855, Mountain View, CA 94043 > From jeeperaz at bigfoot.com Mon May 31 15:57:03 1999 From: jeeperaz at bigfoot.com (Larry Maggio) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:57:03 -0400 Subject: Any Jeep owners? Message-ID: Has the motor been installed in the jeep yet and if so what type of motor mounts where used? Did you offset the motor to any particular side of the compartment? TIA, Larry From nacelp at bright.net Mon May 31 15:57:20 1999 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:57:20 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old BCC Info. Message-ID: Can anyone get this to work?. I doesn't like any of the numbers I feed it. Doc | Yes. This site lists info for 93 and newer. There may be something | for older cars also, but I haven't looked for it. | http://calid.gm.com/vci/ From eclark at hoser.com Mon May 31 16:39:59 1999 From: eclark at hoser.com (eclark at hoser.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 12:39:59 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old Message-ID: On Mon, 31 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > eclark at hoser.com wrote: > > > > On Sun, 30 May 1999, Roger Heflin wrote: > > > > > BDZL is the broadcast code I have. The computer part no is the > > > 16159278 computer. Are there any rev numbers actually in the prom > > > data? > > > > Mine has BDZL also, and it is labeled on the ECM, so i suspect that it has > > never been updated. > > > Right you are. Have you experienced chuggle-itis? > I never really noticed it in my formula. Right now this drivetrain is making its way into a '66 Impala, now I will know what to do if I encounter the problem. -Eric From eclark at hoser.com Mon May 31 16:42:58 1999 From: eclark at hoser.com (eclark at hoser.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 12:42:58 -0400 Subject: Some new, some old BCC Info. Message-ID: On Mon, 31 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > Scott Feaver wrote: > > > > Is there a site somewhere that lists this info? > > Yes. This site lists info for 93 and newer. There may be something > for older cars also, but I haven't looked for it. > http://calid.gm.com/vci/ > I've seen that url passed around the fourth-gen f-body list, but it only covers reprogrammable PCM's. Doesnt give any info for cars with removable proms. -Eric From cbrooks1 at tqci.net Mon May 31 16:53:50 1999 From: cbrooks1 at tqci.net (C. Brooks) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 12:53:50 -0400 Subject: laptop HP measurement (Was g meter) Message-ID: Another option would be... http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/5837/StreetDyno.html It operates very similar to the "Home Dyno" the good part is that it's *FREE* I've been using it for a week or so. Charles Brooks -----Original Message----- From: Programmer To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 1:41 PM Subject: Re: g meter >Check out www.pcdyno.com --he's got the software and everything done for >acceleration runs with a laptop. Works great. > >Lyndon IPTECH >-----Original Message----- >From: Scott Feaver >To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 10:17 PM >Subject: RE: g meter > > >>Are you able to scan in that article? CCI Magazine isn't available >anywhere >>around here, I haven't seen it in ages now. I thought they were going >under >>a few years ago.. >> >>Thanks, >>Scott >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu >>[mailto:owner-diy_efi at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of >>xxalexx at ix.netcom.com >>Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 3:16 PM >>To: diy_efi at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >>Subject: g meter >> >>Circuit Cellar Inc. #107 june 99 has good article on the >>ADXL202 +-2 g accellerometer with 0.001 g resolution >>Even sensitive to going up and down hills (0.016 g per degree) >>Complete boards avaliable under $30 from Jameco >>and Crossbow. >>alex >> >> > > From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Mon May 31 17:11:38 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:11:38 -0400 Subject: Any Jeep owners? Message-ID: The frame is currently at a body shop waiting to be powder coated - this is the point where Mike ran out of cash, so it sits, and the engine sits in my garage. Plus, he owes me a grand for the advanced adaptors that I ordered to do the job right. Advanced Adaptors has a catalog for jeeps of all years... and we used their motor mounts, bellhousing mount, transaxle mount etc, to make this a simple swap. Chevy 305 mated to a 700R to a ford transfer case with all the adaptors worked out that the jeep driveshaft is "just right" in the back, and the front driveshaft looks like it will be okay, we haven't fitted that piece yet. Before sending the frame out, we did a test fit and everything fit okay (minus the front driveshaft - we didn't get a chance to do that yet). So, when everything comes back after Mike coughs up the cash, it should be a mere bolt together. The motor fit without being offset to either side. With the body mounted, its a tight fit in back of the engine, but nothing I'd be worried about. Just getting at things in the back will be tough. Maybe 1.5" of space as a wild guess. We will be mounting an aluminum plate on the firewall, as well as inside the tranny arch for insulation purposes, just to make sure the heat doesn't bake the new paint off the inside. I have pictures of the disassembly process, though nothing for the test fitting of the engine process, since we'll be going through that again once Mike gets his act together. http://www.xephic.dynip.com/jeep/jeep.html From frederic at xephic.dynip.com Mon May 31 17:22:20 1999 From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:22:20 -0400 Subject: laptop HP measurement (Was g meter) Message-ID: > http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/5837/StreetDyno.html It operates Charles posted what I would consider one of the best (and free) solutions. My friend with the dyno downloaded, I soldered together the simple voltage divider and we attached it per the instructions, and on a vehicle producing close to 750 HP (El Camino w/BB Chevy) we ran the street dyno program in parallel to the real dyno. Ray, my buddy, determined the street dyno varied its accuracy by about 1-2%, which is certainly more than acceptable considering its free, easy to use, and doesn't require several hundered dollars worth of junk attached to your car. take the 2 cents for what its worth, as the pennies are corroded too :) Frederic From efi at cardozo.org Mon May 31 17:45:30 1999 From: efi at cardozo.org (Al Lipper) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:45:30 -0400 Subject: Pulsed ECU7 Message-ID: The system is designed to drive up to four batches of injectors. So yes, it can be used to operate a port injection system. I don't know the specs of the Bosch injectors, but I expect they would work with little or no modification. Al At 07:09 PM 5/30/99 -0400, you wrote: > Can this system be used to run standard type bosch injectors on a 4 cyl >motor? Is the system only for the TBI type of injectors. > >Thanks Tom From efi at cardozo.org Mon May 31 17:45:32 1999 From: efi at cardozo.org (Al Lipper) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 13:45:32 -0400 Subject: EFI construction plans for ECU7 Message-ID: Okay Wayne, I'll put you on the list. Al At 09:19 AM 5/31/99 +1000, you wrote: >< If anyone is interested in being part of a group >> parts order, let me know. So, check out: > >Count me in. > >Wayne. From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Mon May 31 18:29:23 1999 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David A. Cooley) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 14:29:23 -0400 Subject: New Frontiers... Message-ID: Hey All, Headed on to new frontiers... Traded the 95 LeSabre this morning... with 92,000 miles they gave me 12,500 for it!!! Got a 97 Ford Explorer XLT 4X4 with the 4.0L V6. This thing is OBD_II. I have a lot of info on OBD_II, but is there anyone here with any "ford specific" OBD_II links, knowledge etc? Thanks, Dave 97 Ford Explorer XLT 4X4 (0-60 in under a day!) =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT at bellsouth.net Packet: N5XMT at KQ4LO.#INT.NC.USA.NA T.A.P.R. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== From SHEHAN at clds.net Mon May 31 18:43:58 1999 From: SHEHAN at clds.net (Brandon Shehan) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 14:43:58 -0400 Subject: TBI for a 3.4 V-6 crate Motor Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEAB72.904ADF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a 3.4 L GM V-6 in my Jeep Cherokee....this engine is a bored and = stroked 2.8 with a revised cam (same engine is used in Camaro and = minivan apps). I got a rotten TBI 2.8 S-10 Blazer engine and stripped = it of its manifold and accesories including HEI electronic advance = distributor. I also have the ECU (service number 1227429). I'm pricing = out harnesses to replicate GM's and need to know if the ECU will be = thoroughly confused by the 20% increase in displacement and need = reprogramming. I have a the Holley 3210 400cfm throttle body (direct = OEM replacement for Delco 220, which looked pretty well ragged out) . I guess it boils down to two things: 1. Do I need to get the ECU reprogrammed (trucks are similar in weight, = function, and gearing, only big difference is 3spd in mine vs 4spd OD = automatic in the Blazer) to handle the increased displacement? I have = the cam specs for both engines if that is neccesary to make the call? 2. Any recommendations for NEW harness sources? I want all of the = sensors (including VSS) wired up and full control of emmissions = equipment like OEM. Thanks Brandon ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEAB72.904ADF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a 3.4 L GM V-6 in my Jeep = Cherokee....this=20 engine is a bored and stroked 2.8 with a revised cam (same engine is = used in=20 Camaro and minivan apps).   I got a rotten TBI 2.8 S-10 Blazer = engine=20 and stripped it of its manifold and accesories including HEI = electronic=20 advance distributor.  I also have the ECU (service number = 1227429). =20 I'm pricing out harnesses to replicate GM's  and need to know if = the ECU=20 will be thoroughly confused by the 20% increase in displacement and need = reprogramming.  I have a the Holley 3210 400cfm throttle body = (direct OEM=20 replacement for Delco 220, which looked pretty well ragged out) = .
 
I guess it boils down to two = things:
 
1. Do I need to get the ECU = reprogrammed (trucks=20 are similar in weight, function, and gearing, only big difference is = 3spd in=20 mine vs 4spd OD automatic in the Blazer) to handle the increased = displacement?=20 I have the cam specs for both engines if that is neccesary to make the=20 call?
2.  Any recommendations for NEW = harness=20 sources?  I want all of the sensors (including VSS) wired up and = full=20 control of emmissions equipment like OEM.
 
Thanks
 
Brandon
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEAB72.904ADF80-- From pford at qnx.com Mon May 31 19:04:33 1999 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:04:33 -0400 Subject: EFI construction plans for ECU7 Message-ID: Previously, you (Al Lipper) wrote: > Okay Wayne, I'll put you on the list. > > Al > > > At 09:19 AM 5/31/99 +1000, you wrote: > >< If anyone is interested in being part of a group > >> parts order, let me know. So, check out: > > > >Count me in. do you have a ball park figure on cost?? I'm very interested > > > >Wayne. > -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 From pxtx at erols.com Mon May 31 19:30:15 1999 From: pxtx at erols.com (Paul Tholey) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 15:30:15 -0400 Subject: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Message-ID: That is one cool Z. I think I remember seeing it. Red with Newer Taurus headlights? Anyways, I think it might be easier to run a toyora Supra rear diff. I know they are available with 3.90:1 gears and LSD. I don't know if it will hold up to 10 sec. 1/4 mile times. I thought indi-rears were not allowed into the 10's by both NHRA/IHRA rules. One other thing is that the Viper has 6 lug wheels and I don't know what the plan would be for rims. HTH Paul Tholey From charlesmorris at erols.com Mon May 31 20:19:05 1999 From: charlesmorris at erols.com (Charles) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 16:19:05 -0400 Subject: mopar block weights Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 1999 22:29:43 -0400, you wrote: >I WILL find out the diff 'tween a 383/400 and 440 block I have an apart >383 short block at gramps, am about to go up their this weekend, may >have to weigh the sucker! How much ya think, just for the block alone? According to my MP books the 440 block with caps weighs 225 lbs. Don't remember the figure for 383/400 but it's probably not a whole lot less... If you want a surprise weigh a 440 steel crank sometime ;) -Charles From gderian at oh.verio.com Mon May 31 21:57:43 1999 From: gderian at oh.verio.com (Gary Derian) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:57:43 -0400 Subject: Prowler V6 Message-ID: The ZZ3 and ZZ4 have cast cranks. The ZZZ, ZZ1 and ZZ2 are forged. I have a new ZZZ if anyone is interested. 1969 was the first year for 4 bolt Chevy SB. Z-28 and LT-1 only. L82 later also. I have never heard of a 10,000 rpm stock Chevy. Lots of trucks got cast cranks with 4 bolt. Cast iron is a very good material to build a cheap crank with. Cranks are stiffness limited, not strength limited at low rpm. The high winding motors need forged cranks. 4 bolt blocks are very good for improved bearing alignment for high engine loads even at low to moderate rpm. Just like trucks do. Gary Derian > Todd....!! wrote: > > > > > I've heard that most s.b. chev 4-bolt main blocks had forged cranks, but > > this hasn't been sildified/proven yet to me anyways, anybody? > > > > I'm Just a wonderinnnnnnn fooooooooooooooo.............!! > > > > LATER! > > > > Todd....!! > > > Bad rumor to put any faith in. Many 4 bolt Chevys are cast crank. > Post 86, only steel cranks are in LT1, LT4, and ZZx series engines > (ok, ok, smallblock, 5.7, gen II engines). Also use powdered > connecting rods, prone to sudden failure rather than bending, but much > stronger until they break. ; ) Ligenfelter Perf. Engineering is > selling some of this stuff that they pulled at low mileage to build > some stronger engines. > > If you're tracking down rumors, ever hear of the 1969 4 bolt 327 > Chebbie? Rumors are that it was a Canadian built engine. > Shannen From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Mon May 31 22:16:20 1999 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 18:16:20 -0400 Subject: g meter Message-ID: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Circuit Cellar Inc. #107 june 99 has good article on the > ADXL202 +-2 g accellerometer with 0.001 g resolution > Even sensitive to going up and down hills (0.016 g per degree) > Complete boards avaliable under $30 from Jameco > and Crossbow. > alex Alex -- I've been around the jameco site and can't find the boards you mention. Do you happen to have a Jameco part number? Or an address for crossbow? I got started breadboarding one of these up, even bought a PIC programmer, and a couple ADXL05 parts, but haven't had time to follow up. --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Mon May 31 22:44:24 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 18:44:24 -0400 Subject: New Frontiers... Message-ID: > Hey All, > Headed on to new frontiers... > Traded the 95 LeSabre this morning... with 92,000 miles they gave me 12,500 > for it!!! > Got a 97 Ford Explorer XLT 4X4 with the 4.0L V6. > This thing is OBD_II. I have a lot of info on OBD_II, but is there anyone > here with any "ford specific" OBD_II links, knowledge etc? > Thanks, > Dave > 97 Ford Explorer XLT 4X4 (0-60 in under a day!) I temporally gave up on Ford OBD2 seems to use initialization bits defined by the Ford Standard Corporate Protocol documents ES-F7LC-12K529-BA and ....CA Have not visited by local Ford dealer lately for jokes VPW is similiar to rs485 rs422 from what i recall the recv. work great but transmitters don't rather sensitve to impeadance matching. http://www2.ari.net/avt-inc/download.htm has some references, also rather helpful to me when I first started in OBD2 if you have interest in there development systems have not talked to them since 96 http://www.okisemi.com/communicator/public/nf/docs/Intro-7017.html has a interface chip, schematics and general J1850 info. some of there pdf can end up as txt on your web page. i think you also need a one time registration. Presently I have a rs232 to PWM PIC byte translator. Have no Ford, sometimes borrow a 96 snap-on to play with. alex From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Mon May 31 23:18:05 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:18:05 -0400 Subject: g meter Message-ID: > > Circuit Cellar Inc. #107 june 99 has good article on the > > ADXL202 +-2 g accellerometer with 0.001 g resolution > > Even sensitive to going up and down hills (0.016 g per degree) > > Complete boards avaliable under $30 from Jameco > > and Crossbow. > > alex > > Alex -- I've been around the jameco site and can't find the boards you > mention. Do you happen to have a Jameco part number? Or an address for > crossbow? > > I got started breadboarding one of these up, even bought a PIC > programmer, and a couple ADXL05 parts, but haven't had time to follow > up. > In Jameco catalog it is on page 84 of May-July cat. #992 part# 141591prod.# CXL04M1 one axis for only $99.99 or a 3 axis for $199.95 helpful for cornering or recording motocross jumps. Note these are made by a Crossbow. documents at ftp://ftp.jameco.com Also a optional interface card for $259.95 #141583 The CCI article said they shot a entry level Crossbow 202EB for $29 on a 5 pin header 0.1" DIP with choice of resistors and caps. Also a 6 degree fiber optic gyro available if you loose your arrows. http://www.xbow.com Microsoft is using the ADXL202 in the Freestyle Pro game controller which senses body motion. I'm sure uses Dierect-X code so you could convert to HP meter and play body games too. Alex From Regnirps at aol.com Mon May 31 23:22:28 1999 From: Regnirps at aol.com (Regnirps at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:22:28 -0400 Subject: EGO/HEGO wiring. Message-ID: I need to put together a fairly comprehensive list of the wiring for EGO/HEGO sensors. For example, wire color codes and what each is for in a list of types and car/model years. Any pointers to sources on this are appreciated. Charlie Springer From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Mon May 31 23:32:56 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:32:56 -0400 Subject: New Frontiers (correction) Message-ID: > > Hey All, > > Headed on to new frontiers... > > Traded the 95 LeSabre this morning... with 92,000 miles they gave me 12,500 > > for it!!! > > Got a 97 Ford Explorer XLT 4X4 with the 4.0L V6. > > This thing is OBD_II. I have a lot of info on OBD_II, but is there anyone > > here with any "ford specific" OBD_II links, knowledge etc? > > Thanks, > > Dave > > 97 Ford Explorer XLT 4X4 (0-60 in under a day!) > > I temporally gave up on Ford OBD2 > seems to use initialization bits > defined by the Ford Standard Corporate Protocol > documents ES-F7LC-12K529-BA and ....CA > Have not visited by local Ford dealer lately for jokes correction PWM SAE J1850 hardware > iis similiar to rs485 rs422 > from what i recall the recv. work great > but transmitters don't > rather sensitve to impeadance matching. > Have you checked the Ford list maybe they have schematic, and Corporate protocol eec-subscribe at eelink.net alex From xxalexx at ix.netcom.com Mon May 31 23:42:48 1999 From: xxalexx at ix.netcom.com (xxalexx at ix.netcom.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:42:48 -0400 Subject: EGO/HEGO wiring. Message-ID: > I need to put together a fairly comprehensive list of the wiring for EGO/HEGO > sensors. For example, wire color codes and what each is for in a list of > types and car/model years. > > Any pointers to sources on this are appreciated. > > Charlie Springer > usally the heater wires same color white(or was that black) and sensor grey? I have not seen any other colors except solid blk, white,. grey and I'm not color blind. Wiring diagrams sometimes have the colors before there own connector changes colors. alex From DemonTSi at aol.com Mon May 31 23:49:12 1999 From: DemonTSi at aol.com (DemonTSi at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 19:49:12 -0400 Subject: "Manually shfting" an auto tranny... Message-ID: Hi folks, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to trannies, and was wondering if someone with a bit of knowledge of modern auto trannies might help me out. Am I correct in assuming that most newer auto trans (maybe even old ones too?) use a single solenoid to control the flow of oil, which determines the shifting of the tranny? If so, is it possible to control the shift points of the tranny, assuming that you eliminate the stock programming in the tranny ECU? I was just thinking that one could hook up a switch to that shifting solenoid and shift "manually"...or maybe it can still be done, but another way? Any help would be great.....! Van - http://members.xoom.com/BADROC