From rsrich at cwcom.net Fri Dec 1 11:15:34 2000 From: rsrich at cwcom.net (Rich M) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 03:15:34 -0800 Subject: Silicon Systems' 67f687 chip - anyone using? Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C05B87.D1EA9C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is anyone using the 67f687 (sadly now deceased)? Some years ago I built a system using this masterpiece of silicon ingenuity, and due to change of interest, I may have a couple of spare devices. I'll be straight from the start, I would like to cover what they cost me, but as they're no longer available and unused, I'm wondering if they're any use to anyone here? Please contact off list; hopefully I'm not offending anyone using bandwidth for this purpose. Regards Rich. (UK) ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C05B87.D1EA9C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is = anyone using the=20 67f687 (sadly now deceased)?

Some = years ago I=20 built a system using this masterpiece of silicon ingenuity, and due to = change of=20 interest, I may have a couple of spare devices. I'll be straight from = the start,=20 I would like to cover what they cost me, but as they're no longer = available and=20 unused, I'm wondering if they're any use to anyone here? Please contact = off=20 list; hopefully I'm not offending anyone using bandwidth for this=20 purpose.

Regards

Rich. = (UK)

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C05B87.D1EA9C20-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From romans at starstream.net Fri Dec 1 15:20:33 2000 From: romans at starstream.net (Romans, Mark) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 07:20:33 -0800 Subject: The Honda O2 sensor Message-ID: The law is more strictly applied with cars. Dealers have in the past (Hopefully in the past) used bait and switch tactics and DA's will really spank a dealer for doing it, so if they have a situation like yours, then it costs them less to lose 8-9G's and sell the car and get on with life. I bet the guy who did the ad either got fired or some serious counseling! Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ira Emus" To: Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 11:49 PM Subject: RE: The Honda O2 sensor > At 01:45 AM 12/1/00 -0500, you wrote: > >I saw a $599.00 UPS on Buy.com for $5.99 and decided to try it. It took > >about 2-3 weeks, but they figured it out. Most online places have a > >disclaimer about misprints. > > That's what I figured, but the 2000 Z28 with 9 miles on the speedometer > that I paid $12,200 proves it's worth trying. If you're not familiar with > the normal pricing, that's just over $13,000 off sticker. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From ira at extrasensory.com Fri Dec 1 16:44:17 2000 From: ira at extrasensory.com (Ira Emus) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:44:17 -0800 Subject: The Honda O2 sensor Message-ID: At 07:19 AM 12/1/00 -0800, you wrote: >I bet the guy who did the ad either got fired or some serious counseling! It was carorder.com and they fixed the price within 10 minutes of my clicking "buy". Ira ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From Stephen.Kaminska at HSC.com Fri Dec 1 16:58:51 2000 From: Stephen.Kaminska at HSC.com (Stephen.Kaminska at HSC.com) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:58:51 -0800 Subject: The Honda O2 sensor Message-ID: Hi all, Have been watching the list for a while and learning, and am very interested in building the WBO2 sensor. Tried the web site Ira mentioned, http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com but find that on Fri morning the price is now $222! This parts place must work like Wall Street, an increase in demand drives the price up :-( Someone recently mentioned a friend who could get them for less, can he help or would the demand from this group totally swamp him? Rick mailto:rick at socalss.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From brace at mminternet.com Fri Dec 1 17:48:11 2000 From: brace at mminternet.com (Chris Serrano) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:48:11 -0800 Subject: The Honda O2 sensor Message-ID: And you killed 'em off, too, Ira. Their web site says they are not acceptting any new orders. On Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:43:16 -0800, you wrote: >At 07:19 AM 12/1/00 -0800, you wrote: >>I bet the guy who did the ad either got fired or some serious counseling! > >It was carorder.com and they fixed the price within 10 minutes of my >clicking "buy". > >Ira > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org Sometimes I like the weather in Long Beach, CA. If mail bounces, please retry! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From f_wilk at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 04:58:30 2000 From: f_wilk at hotmail.com (944Technologist) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 20:58:30 -0800 Subject: Fuel injector flow rates? Message-ID: What are the flow rates for the following BOSCH injectors? Anybody? 0 280 150 201 0 280 150 158 Thanks, FR Wilk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From houlster at inficad.com Sat Dec 2 05:24:04 2000 From: houlster at inficad.com (Daniel Houlton) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:24:04 -0800 Subject: Throttle butterfly source? Message-ID: A while back, someone was looking for a source of small throttle bodies. Anybody know where I could find just the butterly and shaft it pivots on? Specifically I'm looking for a butterfly 1.5" in diameter. One a little smaller will do, but not less than an inch or 1.25" depending on what I find. I'd prefer a new source (I'll need several eventually), not a junkyard piece stripped from a throttle body. Can these be bought seperate from a throttle body? Any idea where to look (other than the parts store)? thanks --Dan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From adrian.law at btinternet.com Sat Dec 2 05:40:15 2000 From: adrian.law at btinternet.com (Ade + Lamb Chop) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 21:40:15 -0800 Subject: Throttle butterfly source? Message-ID: On 1 Dec 2000, at 22:25, Daniel Houlton wrote: > A while back, someone was looking for a source of small > throttle bodies. Anybody know where I could find just > the butterly and shaft it pivots on? > > Specifically I'm looking for a butterfly 1.5" in diameter. > One a little smaller will do, but not less than an inch > or 1.25" depending on what I find. > > I'd prefer a new source (I'll need several eventually), > not a junkyard piece stripped from a throttle body. Can > these be bought seperate from a throttle body? Any idea > where to look (other than the parts store)? How about SU carb butterflies and spindles. They are cheap and easily available from your local carb specialist (will in the UK anyway) there are several different sizes available. If you want more info just ask. Ade ICQ. 75653589 www.adesite.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From rsrich at cwcom.net Sat Dec 2 11:13:31 2000 From: rsrich at cwcom.net (Rich M) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 03:13:31 -0800 Subject: Throttle butterfly source? Message-ID: or Weber (or Dellorto) plates and spindles, they're available as spares in a wide variety of sizes. Rich > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Ade + Lamb Chop > Sent: 02 December 2000 05:39 > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: Throttle butterfly source? > > > On 1 Dec 2000, at 22:25, Daniel Houlton wrote: > > > A while back, someone was looking for a source of small > > throttle bodies. Anybody know where I could find just > > the butterly and shaft it pivots on? > > > > Specifically I'm looking for a butterfly 1.5" in diameter. > > One a little smaller will do, but not less than an inch > > or 1.25" depending on what I find. > > > > I'd prefer a new source (I'll need several eventually), > > not a junkyard piece stripped from a throttle body. Can > > these be bought seperate from a throttle body? Any idea > > where to look (other than the parts store)? > > How about SU carb butterflies and spindles. They are cheap and > easily available from your local carb specialist (will in the UK > anyway) there are several different sizes available. If you want more > info just ask. > > Ade > > > ICQ. 75653589 > www.adesite.co.uk > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without > the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From eoa at spartek.com Sat Dec 2 14:11:18 2000 From: eoa at spartek.com (Eric Aos) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 06:11:18 -0800 Subject: Throttle butterfly source? Message-ID: Kinsler, Hilborn, Enderle all sell various sizes. Check out some of the others listed here too... http://roadsters.com/engines.html#FuelInjection Eric Aos > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel Houlton [mailto:houlster at inficad.com] > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 9:25 PM > To: EFI > Subject: Throttle butterfly source? > > > A while back, someone was looking for a source of small > throttle bodies. Anybody know where I could find just > the butterly and shaft it pivots on? > > Specifically I'm looking for a butterfly 1.5" in diameter. > One a little smaller will do, but not less than an inch > or 1.25" depending on what I find. > > I'd prefer a new source (I'll need several eventually), > not a junkyard piece stripped from a throttle body. Can > these be bought seperate from a throttle body? Any idea > where to look (other than the parts store)? > > thanks > --Dan > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From r71chevy at earthlink.net Sun Dec 3 03:30:59 2000 From: r71chevy at earthlink.net (Bob Wooten) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:30:59 -0800 Subject: Throttle butterfly source? Message-ID: If all you are talking about is the butterfly & the shaft, I would also think that any machine shop could make a small flat spot on a shaft to put a butterfly. BW > [Original Message] > From: Eric Aos > To: > Date: 12/2/00 6:13:49 AM > Subject: RE: Throttle butterfly source? > > Kinsler, Hilborn, Enderle all sell various sizes. > Check out some of the others listed here too... > > http://roadsters.com/engines.html#FuelInjection > > > Eric Aos > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Daniel Houlton [mailto:houlster at inficad.com] > > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 9:25 PM > > To: EFI > > Subject: Throttle butterfly source? > > > > > > A while back, someone was looking for a source of small > > throttle bodies. Anybody know where I could find just > > the butterly and shaft it pivots on? > > > > Specifically I'm looking for a butterfly 1.5" in diameter. > > One a little smaller will do, but not less than an inch > > or 1.25" depending on what I find. > > > > I'd prefer a new source (I'll need several eventually), > > not a junkyard piece stripped from a throttle body. Can > > these be bought seperate from a throttle body? Any idea > > where to look (other than the parts store)? > > > > thanks > > --Dan > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" > > (without the quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > > majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > --- Bob Wooten --- r71chevy at earthlink.net --- 71-91 Camaro ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From ira at extrasensory.com Sun Dec 3 03:41:48 2000 From: ira at extrasensory.com (Ira Emus) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:41:48 -0800 Subject: Throttle butterfly source? Message-ID: At 10:25 PM 12/1/00 -0700, you wrote: >I'd prefer a new source (I'll need several eventually), They were once available as spares for Weber carbs. Ira ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From michael at acec.co.nz Sun Dec 3 03:57:05 2000 From: michael at acec.co.nz (Michael) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 19:57:05 -0800 Subject: Fuel injector flow rates? Message-ID: The flow rate for the 0 280 150 201 is 236 cm3/min at 3 bar or 22.8 LBS/HR at 43.5 PSI I'm afraid I don't know the other one At 20:56 1/12/2000 -0800, you wrote: >What are the flow rates for the following BOSCH injectors? Anybody? > >0 280 150 201 >0 280 150 158 > >Thanks, FR Wilk >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From brankob at avtomatika.com Sun Dec 3 10:39:13 2000 From: brankob at avtomatika.com (Branko Badrljica) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 02:39:13 -0800 Subject: EFI Message-ID: Hi all, I am new to this list, but have in the past searched the info about fuel injection etc. Now I'm after making simple fuel ignition system. Electronics is no problem, but I need info about fuel burnuing characteristics.. I need info about optimal energy, timing and longitude of the spark, time advvance of the soark with regard of the various factors, like temperature in the engine, octane number of the fuel, quantity of the intake air/fuel mixture etc. Is that data in direct, simple and undestandable form available on the Web ? I'm looking into converting old carburetor systems (no EFI) at the moment... TIA, Branko ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From wsherwin at home.com Mon Dec 4 00:54:12 2000 From: wsherwin at home.com (Walter Sherwin) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:54:12 -0800 Subject: Throttle butterfly source? Message-ID: Kinsler Fuel Injection, or Holley Performance Products...... > A while back, someone was looking for a source of small > throttle bodies. Anybody know where I could find just > the butterly and shaft it pivots on? > > Specifically I'm looking for a butterfly 1.5" in diameter. > One a little smaller will do, but not less than an inch > or 1.25" depending on what I find. > > I'd prefer a new source (I'll need several eventually), > not a junkyard piece stripped from a throttle body. Can > these be bought seperate from a throttle body? Any idea > where to look (other than the parts store)? > > thanks > --Dan > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From 280zx at home.com Mon Dec 4 02:11:01 2000 From: 280zx at home.com (Ross Corrigan) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 18:11:01 -0800 Subject: Throttle butterfly source? Message-ID: > > > A while back, someone was looking for a source of small > > throttle bodies. Anybody know where I could find just > > the butterly and shaft it pivots on? > > > > Specifically I'm looking for a butterfly 1.5" in diameter. > > One a little smaller will do, but not less than an inch > > or 1.25" depending on what I find. Not sure if this was suggested or not but Datsun 510 SU's are 38mm (1.5") and parts may be available new. Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most. mailto:280zx at home.com ICQ # 11549358 http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From dzorde at erggroup.com Mon Dec 4 08:07:05 2000 From: dzorde at erggroup.com (Dan Zorde) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:07:05 -0800 Subject: Throttle butterfly source? Message-ID: Look at the Magnuson supercharger bypass valves, they look like miniature throttle bodies and come in size 1.5" Dan dzorde at erggroup.com Hello all of you. I am currently building a extra fuel controller to my car (Saab 99 with 16V turbo) using a pic16f877. I also have some high impedance injectors (16 0hms). I am going to switch them whith a BUK102-50GL transistor. The question is: Do i need any ballast resistors connected to the injectors? If yes what resistance? Wattage? regards klas arvidsson _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From rsrich at cwcom.net Mon Dec 4 09:34:02 2000 From: rsrich at cwcom.net (Rich M) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 01:34:02 -0800 Subject: Injecor impedance? Message-ID: klas, I'm not familiar with specs for the BUK device you quote, but provided it can deal with a couple of amps without struggling, and there is a mechanism for clamping excess back-emf from the injector inductance when it switches, you should have no problem, no ballast required. The back-emf can be clamped (60V is a good max. value) by external device (transorb etc.) or inherently by the switching device - a lot of Mosfets incorporate internal active clamping mechanisms to provide them with an 'avalanche energy' rating; you should be able to see if this is the case from the datasheet. If i get a chance, I'll try and look at a data sheet for this device. Regards Rich > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of :) :( > Sent: 04 December 2000 08:53 > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Injecor impedance? > > > Hello all of you. > > I am currently building a extra fuel controller to my car (Saab > 99 with 16V > turbo) using a pic16f877. I also have some high impedance injectors (16 > 0hms). I am going to switch them whith a BUK102-50GL transistor. > > The question is: Do i need any ballast resistors connected to the > injectors? > If yes what resistance? Wattage? > > regards > > klas arvidsson > > __________________________________________________________________ > ___________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From rsrich at cwcom.net Mon Dec 4 10:05:11 2000 From: rsrich at cwcom.net (Rich M) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 02:05:11 -0800 Subject: Injecor impedance? Message-ID: whoa! I've just found the datasheet for BUK102 - should be no problem at all with that one - protected against just about anything but nucle at r fallout! I have also re-read your original message and you say you 'also have some Hi imp. injectors' - I read this to mean you are making an add-on controller for these additional injectors - am I still on track or got the wrong end of the stick??? Regards Rich > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich M [mailto:rsrich at cwcom.net] > Sent: 04 December 2000 09:32 > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: Injecor impedance? > > > klas, > I'm not familiar with specs for the BUK device you quote, but > provided it can deal with a couple of amps without struggling, > and there is a mechanism for clamping excess back-emf from the > injector inductance when it switches, you should have no problem, > no ballast required. > The back-emf can be clamped (60V is a good max. value) by > external device (transorb etc.) or inherently by the switching > device - a lot of Mosfets incorporate internal active clamping > mechanisms to provide them with an 'avalanche energy' rating; you > should be able to see if this is the case from the datasheet. > If i get a chance, I'll try and look at a data sheet for this device. > Regards > > Rich > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On > > Behalf Of :) :( > > Sent: 04 December 2000 08:53 > > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subject: Injecor impedance? > > > > > > Hello all of you. > > > > I am currently building a extra fuel controller to my car (Saab > > 99 with 16V > > turbo) using a pic16f877. I also have some high impedance injectors (16 > > 0hms). I am going to switch them whith a BUK102-50GL transistor. > > > > The question is: Do i need any ballast resistors connected to the > > injectors? > > If yes what resistance? Wattage? > > > > regards > > > > klas arvidsson > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > ___________________ > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without > the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From timo.hyttinen at kpmg.fi Mon Dec 4 10:59:27 2000 From: timo.hyttinen at kpmg.fi (Hyttinen, Timo) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 02:59:27 -0800 Subject: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning Message-ID: Hello everybody! I`m new on the list and got just a hold of a Saab 9000 16v turbo -89 with no cat. I`m about to do some performance modifications on it in a near future. I`m interested in finding out how to modifiy the existing efi and how to reprogram the ecu. The car is equipped with the direct ignition system. I don`t want to settle for those performance chips that are readily available for non-modified turbos. Any hints or ideas how to approach the problem are welcome! Best regards Timo Hyttinen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From perkelpuk at hotmail.com Mon Dec 4 11:05:39 2000 From: perkelpuk at hotmail.com (:) :() Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 03:05:39 -0800 Subject: Injecor impedance? Message-ID: Thank you Rich! You've got the right end allright.. Yes i'm building a add-on controller. If it works im able to run a bit higher boost. The system will consist of 4 additional injectors (215ml/min), pic16f877 at 20Mhz (overkill) and a mpx pressure sensor of some kind (mpx4250 i think). I will also control the wastegate solenoid as the saab-apc system is faulty (expensive to buy a new and they brak anyway). I am using BUK102 because i got them as a sample a cuple of years ago when i was building a lap-top based efi. The master plan is to see if this works, if it does i will try to incorporate ignition. rgrds klas >From: "Rich M" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "Diy_Efi at Diy-Efi. Org" >Subject: RE: Injecor impedance? >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 10:03:35 -0000 > >whoa! I've just found the datasheet for BUK102 - should be no problem at >all >with that one - protected against just about anything but nucle at r fallout! >I have also re-read your original message and you say you 'also have some >Hi >imp. injectors' - I read this to mean you are making an add-on controller >for these additional injectors - am I still on track or got the wrong end >of >the stick??? > >Regards > >Rich > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rich M [mailto:rsrich at cwcom.net] > > Sent: 04 December 2000 09:32 > > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subject: RE: Injecor impedance? > > > > > > klas, > > I'm not familiar with specs for the BUK device you quote, but > > provided it can deal with a couple of amps without struggling, > > and there is a mechanism for clamping excess back-emf from the > > injector inductance when it switches, you should have no problem, > > no ballast required. > > The back-emf can be clamped (60V is a good max. value) by > > external device (transorb etc.) or inherently by the switching > > device - a lot of Mosfets incorporate internal active clamping > > mechanisms to provide them with an 'avalanche energy' rating; you > > should be able to see if this is the case from the datasheet. > > If i get a chance, I'll try and look at a data sheet for this device. > > Regards > > > > Rich > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On > > > Behalf Of :) :( > > > Sent: 04 December 2000 08:53 > > > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > > Subject: Injecor impedance? > > > > > > > > > Hello all of you. > > > > > > I am currently building a extra fuel controller to my car (Saab > > > 99 with 16V > > > turbo) using a pic16f877. I also have some high impedance injectors >(16 > > > 0hms). I am going to switch them whith a BUK102-50GL transistor. > > > > > > The question is: Do i need any ballast resistors connected to the > > > injectors? > > > If yes what resistance? Wattage? > > > > > > regards > > > > > > klas arvidsson > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > ___________________ > > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ---------- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without > > the quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From rsrich at cwcom.net Mon Dec 4 11:35:50 2000 From: rsrich at cwcom.net (Rich M) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 03:35:50 -0800 Subject: Injecor impedance? Message-ID: I think it's looking good then klas, the BUK 102's are probably overkill too, but if you've got them then it's not a problem eh? Be sure to arrange the pipework to the pressure sensor so that the sensor is in a position that doesn't allow stuff to settle in there (especially fuel or water condensates), best to mount the sensor so the pipe connects vertically upwards into it. Good Luck. Rich > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of :) :( > Sent: 04 December 2000 11:05 > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: Injecor impedance? > > > Thank you Rich! > > You've got the right end allright.. > > Yes i'm building a add-on controller. If it works im able to run a bit > higher boost. The system will consist of 4 additional injectors > (215ml/min), > pic16f877 at 20Mhz (overkill) and a mpx pressure sensor of some kind > (mpx4250 i > think). I will also control the wastegate solenoid as the > saab-apc system is > faulty (expensive to buy a new and they brak anyway). > > I am using BUK102 because i got them as a sample a cuple of years > ago when i > was building a lap-top based efi. > > The master plan is to see if this works, if it does i will try to > incorporate ignition. > > rgrds > > klas ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From perkelpuk at hotmail.com Mon Dec 4 11:36:19 2000 From: perkelpuk at hotmail.com (:) :() Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 03:36:19 -0800 Subject: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning Message-ID: Hello. I have a saab 99 with a 16v turbo engine (84 engine). If you now swedish you can take a look at www.saabuel.com. The easy way to tune your car would be to adjust the apc-box. Search on apc and saab on the net. After a coouple of days later you may want some more hp. Buy a chip and a adjustable fuel pressure regulator, or buy or build a add on fuel controller and weld on some more injectors. (I am currently building a add on fuel injection system and plan to have about 1,5 bars of boost. To boost this much safely you need quite a bit of fuel i do not think it is possible with your standard injectors regardless of the fuel pressure, so you either have to change the injectors or have some more of them. ) After this you may want another turbo. On my saab i have a small mitsubichi turbo ( TD04HL-13T ) it gives a much better response then the original garret t3. It is also a good idea to have a bigger down pipe. The gearboxes on the saabs are not the sturdiest on the market to say the least so take it easy. //klas >From: "Hyttinen, Timo" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "Diy_Efi (E-mail)" >Subject: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:59:07 +0200 > > > >Hello everybody! > >I`m new on the list and got just a hold of a Saab 9000 16v turbo -89 with >no >cat. I`m about to do some performance modifications on it in a near future. >I`m interested in finding out how to modifiy the existing efi and how to >reprogram the ecu. The car is equipped with the direct ignition system. I >don`t want to settle for those performance chips that are readily available >for non-modified turbos. > >Any hints or ideas how to approach the problem are welcome! > >Best regards > > >Timo Hyttinen >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From perkelpuk at hotmail.com Mon Dec 4 12:04:18 2000 From: perkelpuk at hotmail.com (:) :() Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 04:04:18 -0800 Subject: Injecor impedance? Message-ID: One more question: Do you know how those litte black bosch ignition modules (The small ones with a big heatsink and 5 or 7 (Can't remember.) pins (Power, gnd, hall sensor and ignition coil) work? Do they have some way to control the dwell or are they only "dumb". I plan to use a couple of them in a distributor less ignition if I can get the fuel controller to work.. Would be a bit easier as i have a few of them laying around. A couple of more things:Is it a lot of oscillating going on in the pressure sensor signal? Plan to sample once per revolution and i do not want a lot of difference between the different revs. How many loadsites do you?need to regulate the fuel decently (was thinking of 8 rpm and 8 map total of 64 sites), of course many are better but what can be sufficient, as I dont want the mapping to take all day. /klas >From: "Rich M" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: >Subject: RE: Injecor impedance? >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:34:20 -0000 > >I think it's looking good then klas, the BUK 102's are probably overkill >too, but if you've got them then it's not a problem eh? >Be sure to arrange the pipework to the pressure sensor so that the sensor >is >in a position that doesn't allow stuff to settle in there (especially fuel >or water condensates), best to mount the sensor so the pipe connects >vertically upwards into it. >Good Luck. > >Rich > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On > > Behalf Of :) :( > > Sent: 04 December 2000 11:05 > > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subject: RE: Injecor impedance? > > > > > > Thank you Rich! > > > > You've got the right end allright.. > > > > Yes i'm building a add-on controller. If it works im able to run a bit > > higher boost. The system will consist of 4 additional injectors > > (215ml/min), > > pic16f877 at 20Mhz (overkill) and a mpx pressure sensor of some kind > > (mpx4250 i > > think). I will also control the wastegate solenoid as the > > saab-apc system is > > faulty (expensive to buy a new and they brak anyway). > > > > I am using BUK102 because i got them as a sample a cuple of years > > ago when i > > was building a lap-top based efi. > > > > The master plan is to see if this works, if it does i will try to > > incorporate ignition. > > > > rgrds > > > > klas > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From timo.hyttinen at kpmg.fi Mon Dec 4 13:19:42 2000 From: timo.hyttinen at kpmg.fi (Hyttinen, Timo) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 05:19:42 -0800 Subject: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning Message-ID: Ok, thank`s for the information, I`ll check out the webpages! Timo Hyttinen -----Original Message----- From: :) :( [mailto:perkelpuk at hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 1:36 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning Hello. I have a saab 99 with a 16v turbo engine (84 engine). If you now swedish you can take a look at www.saabuel.com. The easy way to tune your car would be to adjust the apc-box. Search on apc and saab on the net. After a coouple of days later you may want some more hp. Buy a chip and a adjustable fuel pressure regulator, or buy or build a add on fuel controller and weld on some more injectors. (I am currently building a add on fuel injection system and plan to have about 1,5 bars of boost. To boost this much safely you need quite a bit of fuel i do not think it is possible with your standard injectors regardless of the fuel pressure, so you either have to change the injectors or have some more of them. ) After this you may want another turbo. On my saab i have a small mitsubichi turbo ( TD04HL-13T ) it gives a much better response then the original garret t3. It is also a good idea to have a bigger down pipe. The gearboxes on the saabs are not the sturdiest on the market to say the least so take it easy. //klas >From: "Hyttinen, Timo" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "Diy_Efi (E-mail)" >Subject: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:59:07 +0200 > > > >Hello everybody! > >I`m new on the list and got just a hold of a Saab 9000 16v turbo -89 with >no >cat. I`m about to do some performance modifications on it in a near future. >I`m interested in finding out how to modifiy the existing efi and how to >reprogram the ecu. The car is equipped with the direct ignition system. I >don`t want to settle for those performance chips that are readily available >for non-modified turbos. > >Any hints or ideas how to approach the problem are welcome! > >Best regards > > >Timo Hyttinen >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From houlster at inficad.com Mon Dec 4 16:36:38 2000 From: houlster at inficad.com (Daniel Houlton) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:36:38 -0800 Subject: Throttle butterfly source? Message-ID: First, thanks all for the multiple sources. I'm gonna check locally for Weber or SU replacement plates. If they don't have them, Holley and Kinsler do so I'll go that route. Dan Zorde wrote: > > Look at the Magnuson supercharger bypass valves, they look like miniature > throttle bodies and come in size 1.5" > > Dan dzorde at erggroup.com Uh, well, that's actually the reason I'm looking for one. Magnuson just sells the complete bypass though ($75). I just want the plate and vacuum actuator. thanks --Dan houlster at inficad.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From andrewg at 16paws.com Mon Dec 4 17:04:34 2000 From: andrewg at 16paws.com (Andrew R. Ghali) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:04:34 -0800 Subject: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?) Message-ID: On Mon, 04 Dec 2000 12:03:43 -0000, "Klas" wrote: >... >A couple of more things:Is it a lot of oscillating going on in the pressure >sensor signal? Plan to sample once per revolution and i do not want a lot of >difference between the different revs. How many loadsites do you?need to >regulate the fuel decently (was thinking of 8 rpm and 8 map total of 64 >sites), of course many are better but what can be sufficient, as I dont want >the mapping to take all day. I would guess that you're seeing the individual intake cycles that are not overlapping. You'll probably need to either a) analog low-pass filter the signal, b) digital low-pass filter the signal or c) select an exact time relative to the crank each revolution to sample (probably not the best solution). Option (b) would be the most optimal because it's easy to "fix" and if you're really good, you can base the filter on the RPM and the engine characteristics to get much faster response. Hope this helps- Andrew ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From perkelpuk at hotmail.com Mon Dec 4 18:04:48 2000 From: perkelpuk at hotmail.com (:) :() Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 10:04:48 -0800 Subject: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?) Message-ID: Hmmm.. I see your piont Andrew, newer gave that a thought.. I think I will do what I usally do, hook it up and see if it works. /klas >From: "Andrew R. Ghali" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >CC: "Klas" >Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?) >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 09:03:50 -0800 > >On Mon, 04 Dec 2000 12:03:43 -0000, "Klas" wrote: > >... > >A couple of more things:Is it a lot of oscillating going on in the >pressure > >sensor signal? Plan to sample once per revolution and i do not want a lot >of > >difference between the different revs. How many loadsites do you?need to > >regulate the fuel decently (was thinking of 8 rpm and 8 map total of 64 > >sites), of course many are better but what can be sufficient, as I dont >want > >the mapping to take all day. > >I would guess that you're seeing the individual intake cycles that are not >overlapping. You'll probably need to either a) analog low-pass filter the >signal, b) digital low-pass filter the signal or c) select an exact time >relative to the crank each revolution to sample (probably not the best >solution). Option (b) would be the most optimal because it's easy to "fix" >and if you're really good, you can base the filter on the RPM and the >engine >characteristics to get much faster response. > >Hope this helps- > >Andrew >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From jdiehl at sandia.gov Mon Dec 4 22:30:30 2000 From: jdiehl at sandia.gov (Diehl, Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:30:30 -0800 Subject: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Message-ID: Thanx for your reply. I have a few more questions, though. You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric pressure, air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of this. I can see how one might argue that the difference between the engine vac and the barametric pressure is what the AFM is measuring, so if this is correct, I can see why I'd need the two pressure sensors. I can see where it would be NICE to know air temp, but my ECU doesn't seem to use it. In lue of that, couldn't I just rely on the Ox sensor to adjust fuel correctly? Would simply tying a potentiometer (sp?) to the throttle linkage be enough to replace the AFM? Otherwise, would I need a circuit much more complex than a MAF and an OPamp? Thanx again, Mike Diehl. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Sent: 11/11/00 12:49 PM Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? IMO one map sensor for barometric presure one for engine vac intake air temp RPM Should be enough for a substitute AFM Or use a late GM MAF and just do a freg., to what ever output your AFM uses Bruce > Hi all, > > I'm in the process of putting an engine in my car, an '87 MR-2. I've looked at the AFM, a flapper door type, > and decided that it is very restrictive. I'm contemplating building a circuit that looks like an AFM to the > computer. I will link this circuit to the throttle linkage. I know that the computer needs this information, but > isn't it using it to measure how much load is on the engine, ie. More load = more vacuume = more open AFM > door? Instead of the computer determining load, the driver will determine it by how much he presses the > petal. Think of it as a variable substitution into the fuel equation. > > If that wont work, how about this. Then I get a MAP sensor and make an op-amp circuit which maps the > outputs appropriately. A MAP is a lot less restrictive than an AFM. > > Since the car isn't running yet, I've had a lot of time (too much?) to think about things like this. I've also had > the oportunity to learn about just about ever major system in it. The car is a project car, so when it is running, > I can do whatever modifications I care to do. That is, it's not my daily driver. > > Look forward to your comments. > > Mike Diehl > > Mike Diehl > 87NA 7afe, dual exhaust & custom headers > --------------------------------------------------- > Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From nacelp at bright.net Mon Dec 4 23:09:06 2000 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:09:06 -0800 Subject: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Message-ID: > You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric pressure, > air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of this. Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass > I can see how one might argue that the difference between the engine vac and > the barametric pressure is what the AFM is measuring, so if this is correct, > I can see why I'd need the two pressure sensors. Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just a MAP to do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem to be doing because of Baro. > I can see where it would be NICE to know air temp, but my ECU doesn't seem > to use it. In lue of that, couldn't I just rely on the Ox sensor to adjust > fuel correctly? If all you want is to run 14.7:1, or go for a wide band. > Would simply tying a potentiometer (sp?) to the throttle linkage be enough > to replace the AFM? If all you want is a Alpha-N system.. Meaning figure AFR on throttle opening, and rpm. Yes you can do that, and if that is all you use it will be border line to even be able to drive some days. there is a too min system that is too min Bruce > > Otherwise, would I need a circuit much more complex than a MAF and an OPamp? > > Thanx again, > Mike Diehl. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Sent: 11/11/00 12:49 PM > Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? > > > IMO > > one map sensor for barometric presure > one for engine vac > intake air temp > RPM > Should be enough for a substitute AFM > Or use a late GM MAF and just do a freg., to what ever output your AFM > uses > Bruce > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I'm in the process of putting an engine in my car, an '87 MR-2. > I've > looked at the AFM, a flapper door type, > > and decided that it is very restrictive. I'm contemplating building > a > circuit that looks like an AFM to the > > computer. I will link this circuit to the throttle linkage. I know > that the computer needs this information, but > > isn't it using it to measure how much load is on the engine, ie. > More > load = more vacuume = more open AFM > > door? Instead of the computer determining load, the driver will > determine it by how much he presses the > > petal. Think of it as a variable substitution into the fuel > equation. > > > > If that wont work, how about this. Then I get a MAP sensor and make > an > op-amp circuit which maps the > > outputs appropriately. A MAP is a lot less restrictive than an AFM. > > > > Since the car isn't running yet, I've had a lot of time (too much?) > to > think about things like this. I've also had > > the oportunity to learn about just about ever major system in it. > The > car is a project car, so when it is running, > > I can do whatever modifications I care to do. That is, it's not my > daily driver. > > > > Look forward to your comments. > > > > Mike Diehl > > > > Mike Diehl > > 87NA 7afe, dual exhaust & custom headers > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From jamesm at lapuwali.com Tue Dec 5 00:12:32 2000 From: jamesm at lapuwali.com (James Montebello) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:12:32 -0800 Subject: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Bruce Plecan wrote: > >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric pressure, >> air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of this. > > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters (as the original poster was asking about) do have an air temperature sensor built into them, and provide it along with the flapper position. The later "hot-wire" type of airflow meters are themselves temperature sensitive, so ambient temperature is accounted for automatically. To the first poster, if you know airflow correctly, you don't need to know engine speed. Bosch K-Jet doesn't have an engine speed input. It does usually have some input related to the throttle position (depending on the type, this is either a MAP reference, or a TPS). > Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just a MAP to > do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem to be > doing because of Baro. I would think that MAP would be directly related to barometric pressure, since lower barometric would automatically mean lower MAP for otherwise identical conditions. Since you want less fuel at altitude, and you'd get a lower MAP value at altitude, a fuel curve matched to MAP, with throttle compensation for acceleration, would be adequate. It's funny how many people are suddenly showing up wanting to replace airflow meters with MAP output. I'd thought about doing exactly the same thing to by L-Jet equipped Alfa. james montebello ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From nacelp at bright.net Tue Dec 5 00:30:14 2000 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:30:14 -0800 Subject: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Message-ID: > >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric pressure, > >> air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of this. > > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass > Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters (as the > original poster was asking about) do have an air temperature sensor built > into them, and provide it along with the flapper position. The later > "hot-wire" type of airflow meters are themselves temperature sensitive, > so ambient temperature is accounted for automatically, It still is calculating MASS, which was the point. For proper tuning you need an air temp timing correction, IMO.. > To the first poster, if you know airflow correctly, you don't need to > know engine speed. Bosch K-Jet doesn't have an engine speed input. > It does usually have some input related to the throttle position > (depending on the type, this is either a MAP reference, or a TPS). He was talkingabout removing it, and then to approximate the air being consumed you need rpm, if designing a system other then AFM, or MAF > > Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just a MAP to > > do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem to be > > doing because of Baro. > I would think that MAP would be directly related to barometric pressure, > since lower barometric would automatically mean lower MAP for otherwise > identical conditions. Since you want less fuel at altitude, and you'd > get a lower MAP value at altitude, a fuel curve matched to MAP, with > throttle compensation for acceleration, would be adequate. Try doing it for a while and check back with me. I would be much easier to develope a single table of 10 items then having to do one of 100+. To get the *proper* resolution IMP. > It's funny how many people are suddenly showing up wanting to replace > airflow meters with MAP output. I'd thought about doing exactly the > same thing to by L-Jet equipped Alfa. By no means new. Bruce > > james montebello ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au Tue Dec 5 00:58:03 2000 From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:58:03 -0800 Subject: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Message-ID: Bruce Plecan tapped away at the keyboard with: > > >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for > > >> barometric pressure, air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow > > >> Meter doesn't have any of this. > > > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass > > Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters > > (as the original poster was asking about) do have an air > > temperature sensor built into them, and provide it along with > > the flapper position. The later "hot-wire" type of airflow > > meters are themselves temperature sensitive, so ambient > > temperature is accounted for automatically, > It still is calculating MASS, which was the point. For proper > tuning you need an air temp timing correction, IMO.. And mixture adjustment as fuel vapourization varies with inlet temperature. The flap-type meter is not a mass meter; it's a air momentum meter. (i.e. mass * velocity) Air mass is then usually calculated by the ECU with the aid of an on-board barometric pressure transducer. That's the reason why many Bosch ECU boxes have an air vent. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! | X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature| / \ and postings | to help me spread! | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From BergRace at c2i.net Tue Dec 5 01:04:04 2000 From: BergRace at c2i.net (P.J.Berg) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:04:04 -0800 Subject: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Message-ID: Montebello, eh! Thats the name of a place close to me here in Oslo Norway. :o) J. P.J.Berg BergRace at Aircooled.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Montebello" To: Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 6:10 PM Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? > On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric pressure, > >> air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of this. > > > > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass > > Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters (as the > original poster was asking about) do have an air temperature sensor built > into them, and provide it along with the flapper position. The later > "hot-wire" type of airflow meters are themselves temperature sensitive, > so ambient temperature is accounted for automatically. > > To the first poster, if you know airflow correctly, you don't need to > know engine speed. Bosch K-Jet doesn't have an engine speed input. > It does usually have some input related to the throttle position > (depending on the type, this is either a MAP reference, or a TPS). > > > > Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just a MAP to > > do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem to be > > doing because of Baro. > > I would think that MAP would be directly related to barometric pressure, > since lower barometric would automatically mean lower MAP for otherwise > identical conditions. Since you want less fuel at altitude, and you'd > get a lower MAP value at altitude, a fuel curve matched to MAP, with > throttle compensation for acceleration, would be adequate. > > > It's funny how many people are suddenly showing up wanting to replace > airflow meters with MAP output. I'd thought about doing exactly the > same thing to by L-Jet equipped Alfa. > > james montebello > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From postmaster at lincoln.ac.nz Tue Dec 5 13:25:54 2000 From: postmaster at lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF e-Mail Interconnect) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:25:54 -0800 Subject: Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed Message-ID: --Boundary_(ID_oNZtWcTZ70Ui3iGTF3z4Uw) Content-type: text/plain This report relates to a message you sent with the following header fields: Message-id: <200012051300.FAA28835 at hektor.valesh.com> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 05:00:10 -0800 From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner at diy-efi.org (DIY_EFI Digest) To: DIY_EFI-Digest at lists.diy-efi.org Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #408 Your message cannot be delivered to the following recipients: Recipient address: baddiehl at hotmail.com Reason: Message rejected; bad return address. Diagnostic code: smtp; 554 Transaction failed Remote system: dns; mc6.law5.hotmail.com (TCP|138.75.10.7|2257|216.33.238.136|25) (HotMail [NO UCE] ESMTP server ready at Tue Dec 05 05:24:33 2000 ) (ESMTP spoken here) (hotmail.com Hello) --Boundary_(ID_oNZtWcTZ70Ui3iGTF3z4Uw) Content-type: message/DELIVERY-STATUS Original-envelope-id: 0G5300NLRJONCN at kauri.lincoln.ac.nz Reporting-MTA: dns; kauri.lincoln.ac.nz Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 (Message rejected; bad return address.) Original-recipient: rfc822;baddiehl at hotmail.com Final-recipient: rfc822;baddiehl at hotmail.com Remote-MTA: dns; mc6.law5.hotmail.com (TCP|138.75.10.7|2257|216.33.238.136|25) (HotMail [NO UCE] ESMTP server ready at Tue Dec 05 05:24:33 2000 ) (ESMTP spoken here) (hotmail.com Hello) Diagnostic-code: smtp; 554 Transaction failed --Boundary_(ID_oNZtWcTZ70Ui3iGTF3z4Uw) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Return-path: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Received: from tcp-daemon by kauri.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V5.1-11 #D3074) id <0G5300M02JON9Z at kauri.lincoln.ac.nz> (original mail from diy_efi at diy-efi.org); Wed, 6 Dec 2000 02:24:15 +1300 (NZD) Received: from tui.lincoln.ac.nz by kauri.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V5.1-11 #D3074) with ESMTP id <0G5300NLQJONCN at kauri.lincoln.ac.nz> for baddiehl at hotmail.com; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 02:19:35 +1300 (NZD) Received: from TUI/SpoolDir by tui.lincoln.ac.nz (Mercury 1.48); Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:20:22 +1300 Received: from SpoolDir by TUI (Mercury 1.48); Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:20:15 +1300 Received: from TUI/SpoolDir by tui.lincoln.ac.nz (Mercury 1.48) for ; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:20:14 +1300 Received: from kauri.lincoln.ac.nz (138.75.10.7) by tui.lincoln.ac.nz (Mercury 1.48) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:20:11 +1300 Received: from hektor.valesh.com (hektor.stardot-tech.com) by kauri.lincoln.ac.nz (PMDF V5.1-11 #D3074) with ESMTP id <0G53005CJJO70G at kauri.lincoln.ac.nz>; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:19:22 +1300 (NZD) Received: (from majordom at localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id FAA28848 for diy_efi-digest-outgoing; Tue, 05 Dec 2000 05:00:22 -0800 Received: (from majordom at localhost) by hektor.valesh.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id FAA28835 for DIY_EFI-Digest-Send at lists.diy-efi.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2000 05:00:10 -0800 Resent-date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:20:14 +1300 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 05:00:10 -0800 Resent-from: Diehla.Acad.STAFF.lu at tui.lincoln.ac.nz From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner at diy-efi.org (DIY_EFI Digest) Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #408 Sender: owner-diy_efi-digest at diy-efi.org Resent-to: baddiehl at hotmail.com To: DIY_EFI-Digest at lists.diy-efi.org Reply-to: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Resent-message-id: <0G5300NLRJONCN at kauri.lincoln.ac.nz> Message-id: <200012051300.FAA28835 at hektor.valesh.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Precedence: bulk X-Autoforward: 1 DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, December 5 2000 Volume 05 : Num= ber 408 In this issue: =09RE: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning =09Re: Throttle butterfly source? =09Re: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?) =09Re: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?) =09RE: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? =09Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? =09Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? =09Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? =09Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? =09Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the=20 DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:19:31 +0200=20 =46rom: "Hyttinen, Timo" Subject: RE: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning Ok, thank`s for the information, I`ll check out the webpages! Timo Hyttinen - -----Original Message----- =46rom: :) :( [mailto:perkelpuk at hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 1:36 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning Hello. I have a saab 99 with a 16v turbo engine (84 engine). If you now swed= ish you can take a look at www.saabuel.com. The easy way to tune your car would be to adjust the apc-box. Search = on apc=20 and saab on the net. After a coouple of days later you may want some = more=20 hp. Buy a chip and a adjustable fuel pressure regulator, or buy or bu= ild a=20 add on fuel controller and weld on some more injectors. (I am current= ly=20 building a add on fuel injection system and plan to have about 1,5 ba= rs of=20 boost. To boost this much safely you need quite a bit of fuel i do no= t think it is possible with your standard injectors regardless of the fuel pr= essure, so you either have to change the injectors or have some more of them.= )=20 After this you may want another turbo. On my saab i have a small mits= ubichi=20 turbo ( TD04HL-13T ) it gives a much better response then the origina= l=20 garret t3. It is also a good idea to have a bigger down pipe. The gea= rboxes=20 on the saabs are not the sturdiest on the market to say the least so = take it easy. //klas >From: "Hyttinen, Timo" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "Diy_Efi (E-mail)" >Subject: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:59:07 +0200 > > > >Hello everybody! > >I`m new on the list and got just a hold of a Saab 9000 16v turbo -89= with=20 >no >cat. I`m about to do some performance modifications on it in a near = future. >I`m interested in finding out how to modifiy the existing efi and ho= w to >reprogram the ecu. The car is equipped with the direct ignition syst= em. I >don`t want to settle for those performance chips that are readily av= ailable >for non-modified turbos. > >Any hints or ideas how to approach the problem are welcome! > >Best regards > > >Timo Hyttinen >--------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- - - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the= =20 >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-ef= i.org > _____________________________________________________________________= _______ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.= msn.com - -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the = quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi= .org - -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the = quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi= .org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:38:15 -0700 (MST) =46rom: Daniel Houlton Subject: Re: Throttle butterfly source? First, thanks all for the multiple sources. I'm gonna check=20 locally for Weber or SU replacement plates. If they don't have them, Holley and Kinsler do so I'll go that route. Dan Zorde wrote: >=20 > Look at the Magnuson supercharger bypass valves, they look like min= iature > throttle bodies and come in size 1.5" >=20 > Dan dzorde at erggroup.com Uh, well, that's actually the reason I'm looking for one. Magnuson just sells the complete bypass though ($75). I just want the plate and vacuum actuator. thanks - --Dan houlster at inficad.com - -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the = quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi= .org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 09:03:50 -0800 =46rom: "Andrew R. Ghali" Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?) On Mon, 04 Dec 2000 12:03:43 -0000, "Klas" wr= ote: >... >A couple of more things:Is it a lot of oscillating going on in the p= ressure=20 >sensor signal? Plan to sample once per revolution and i do not want = a lot of=20 >difference between the different revs. How many loadsites do you= =B4need to=20 >regulate the fuel decently (was thinking of 8 rpm and 8 map total of= 64=20 >sites), of course many are better but what can be sufficient, as I d= ont want=20 >the mapping to take all day. I would guess that you're seeing the individual intake cycles that ar= e not overlapping. You'll probably need to either a) analog low-pass filte= r the signal, b) digital low-pass filter the signal or c) select an exact t= ime relative to the crank each revolution to sample (probably not the bes= t solution). Option (b) would be the most optimal because it's easy to= "fix" and if you're really good, you can base the filter on the RPM and the= engine characteristics to get much faster response. Hope this helps- Andrew - -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the = quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi= .org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:04:09 -0000 =46rom: ":) :(" Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?) Hmmm.. I see your piont Andrew, newer gave that a thought.. I think I will d= o what=20 I usally do, hook it up and see if it works. /klas >From: "Andrew R. Ghali" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >CC: "Klas" >Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?) >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 09:03:50 -0800 > >On Mon, 04 Dec 2000 12:03:43 -0000, "Klas" w= rote: > >... > >A couple of more things:Is it a lot of oscillating going on in the= =20 >pressure > >sensor signal? Plan to sample once per revolution and i do not wan= t a lot=20 >of > >difference between the different revs. How many loadsites do you= =B4need to > >regulate the fuel decently (was thinking of 8 rpm and 8 map total = of 64 > >sites), of course many are better but what can be sufficient, as I= dont=20 >want > >the mapping to take all day. > >I would guess that you're seeing the individual intake cycles that a= re not >overlapping. You'll probably need to either a) analog low-pass filt= er the >signal, b) digital low-pass filter the signal or c) select an exact = time >relative to the crank each revolution to sample (probably not the be= st >solution). Option (b) would be the most optimal because it's easy t= o "fix" >and if you're really good, you can base the filter on the RPM and th= e=20 >engine >characteristics to get much faster response. > >Hope this helps- > >Andrew >--------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the= =20 >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-ef= i.org > _____________________________________________________________________= ________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.= msn.com - -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the = quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi= .org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:28:23 -0700 =46rom: "Diehl, Jeffrey" Subject: RE: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Thanx for your reply. I have a few more questions, though. You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric press= ure, air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of this.= =20 I can see how one might argue that the difference between the engine = vac and the barametric pressure is what the AFM is measuring, so if this is c= orrect, I can see why I'd need the two pressure sensors. I can see where it would be NICE to know air temp, but my ECU doesn't= seem to use it. In lue of that, couldn't I just rely on the Ox sensor to = adjust fuel correctly? Would simply tying a potentiometer (sp?) to the throttle linkage be e= nough to replace the AFM? Otherwise, would I need a circuit much more complex than a MAF and an= OPamp? Thanx again, Mike Diehl. - -----Original Message----- =46rom: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Sent: 11/11/00 12:49 PM Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? IMO one map sensor for barometric presure one for engine vac intake air temp RPM Should be enough for a substitute AFM Or use a late GM MAF and just do a freg., to what ever output your AF= M uses Bruce > Hi all, > > I'm in the process of putting an engine in my car, an '87 MR-2. I've looked at the AFM, a flapper door type, > and decided that it is very restrictive. I'm contemplating build= ing a circuit that looks like an AFM to the > computer. I will link this circuit to the throttle linkage. I k= now that the computer needs this information, but > isn't it using it to measure how much load is on the engine, ie. More load =3D more vacuume =3D more open AFM > door? Instead of the computer determining load, the driver will determine it by how much he presses the > petal. Think of it as a variable substitution into the fuel equation. > > If that wont work, how about this. Then I get a MAP sensor and m= ake an op-amp circuit which maps the > outputs appropriately. A MAP is a lot less restrictive than an A= FM. > > Since the car isn't running yet, I've had a lot of time (too muc= h?) to think about things like this. I've also had > the oportunity to learn about just about ever major system in it. The car is a project car, so when it is running, > I can do whatever modifications I care to do. That is, it's not = my daily driver. > > Look forward to your comments. > > Mike Diehl > > Mike Diehl > 87NA 7afe, dual exhaust & custom headers > --------------------------------------------------- > Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com > - -------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- - -- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without th= e quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > - -------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- - ---- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org - -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the = quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi= .org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 18:09:12 -0500 =46rom: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? > You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric pre= ssure, > air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of thi= s. Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass > I can see how one might argue that the difference between the engin= e vac and > the barametric pressure is what the AFM is measuring, so if this is correct, > I can see why I'd need the two pressure sensors. Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just a MA= P to do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem to be doing because of Baro. > I can see where it would be NICE to know air temp, but my ECU doesn= 't seem > to use it. In lue of that, couldn't I just rely on the Ox sensor t= o adjust > fuel correctly? If all you want is to run 14.7:1, or go for a wide band. > Would simply tying a potentiometer (sp?) to the throttle linkage be= enough > to replace the AFM? If all you want is a Alpha-N system.. Meaning figure AFR on throttle opening, and rpm. Yes you can do that, and if that is all you use it will be border lin= e to even be able to drive some days. there is a too min system that is too min Bruce > > Otherwise, would I need a circuit much more complex than a MAF and = an OPamp? > > Thanx again, > Mike Diehl. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Sent: 11/11/00 12:49 PM > Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? > > > IMO > > one map sensor for barometric presure > one for engine vac > intake air temp > RPM > Should be enough for a substitute AFM > Or use a late GM MAF and just do a freg., to what ever output your = AFM > uses > Bruce > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I'm in the process of putting an engine in my car, an '87 MR-2. > I've > looked at the AFM, a flapper door type, > > and decided that it is very restrictive. I'm contemplating bui= lding > a > circuit that looks like an AFM to the > > computer. I will link this circuit to the throttle linkage. I= know > that the computer needs this information, but > > isn't it using it to measure how much load is on the engine, ie= . > More > load =3D more vacuume =3D more open AFM > > door? Instead of the computer determining load, the driver wil= l > determine it by how much he presses the > > petal. Think of it as a variable substitution into the fuel > equation. > > > > If that wont work, how about this. Then I get a MAP sensor and= make > an > op-amp circuit which maps the > > outputs appropriately. A MAP is a lot less restrictive than an= AFM. > > > > Since the car isn't running yet, I've had a lot of time (too m= uch?) > to > think about things like this. I've also had > > the oportunity to learn about just about ever major system in i= t. > The > car is a project car, so when it is running, > > I can do whatever modifications I care to do. That is, it's no= t my > daily driver. > > > > Look forward to your comments. > > > > Mike Diehl > > > > Mike Diehl > > 87NA 7afe, dual exhaust & custom headers > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > -- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without = the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > ---- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without th= e > quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > - -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the = quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi= .org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:10:47 -0800 (PST) =46rom: James Montebello Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Bruce Plecan wrote: >=20 >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric pr= essure, >> air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of th= is. >=20 > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters (as t= he original poster was asking about) do have an air temperature sensor b= uilt into them, and provide it along with the flapper position. The later "hot-wire" type of airflow meters are themselves temperature sensitiv= e, so ambient temperature is accounted for automatically. To the first poster, if you know airflow correctly, you don't need to know engine speed. Bosch K-Jet doesn't have an engine speed input. It does usually have some input related to the throttle position (depending on the type, this is either a MAP reference, or a TPS). > Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just a = MAP to=20 > do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem to= be=20 > doing because of Baro. I would think that MAP would be directly related to barometric pressu= re, since lower barometric would automatically mean lower MAP for otherwi= se identical conditions. Since you want less fuel at altitude, and you'= d get a lower MAP value at altitude, a fuel curve matched to MAP, with throttle compensation for acceleration, would be adequate. It's funny how many people are suddenly showing up wanting to replace airflow meters with MAP output. I'd thought about doing exactly the same thing to by L-Jet equipped Alfa. =20 james montebello - -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the = quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi= .org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:30:17 -0500 =46rom: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? > >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric pressure, > >> air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of = this. > > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass > Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters (as= the > original poster was asking about) do have an air temperature sensor= built > into them, and provide it along with the flapper position. The lat= er > "hot-wire" type of airflow meters are themselves temperature sensit= ive, > so ambient temperature is accounted for automatically, It still is calculating MASS, which was the point. For proper tuning you need an air temp timing correction, IMO.. > To the first poster, if you know airflow correctly, you don't need = to > know engine speed. Bosch K-Jet doesn't have an engine speed input. > It does usually have some input related to the throttle position > (depending on the type, this is either a MAP reference, or a TPS). He was talkingabout removing it, and then to approximate the air bein= g consumed you need rpm, if designing a system other then AFM, or MAF > > Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just = a MAP to > > do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem = to be > > doing because of Baro. > I would think that MAP would be directly related to barometric pres= sure, > since lower barometric would automatically mean lower MAP for other= wise > identical conditions. Since you want less fuel at altitude, and yo= u'd > get a lower MAP value at altitude, a fuel curve matched to MAP, wit= h > throttle compensation for acceleration, would be adequate. Try doing it for a while and check back with me. I would be much easier to develope a single table of 10 items then ha= ving to do one of 100+. To get the *proper* resolution IMP. > It's funny how many people are suddenly showing up wanting to repla= ce > airflow meters with MAP output. I'd thought about doing exactly th= e > same thing to by L-Jet equipped Alfa. By no means new. Bruce > > james montebello - -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the = quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi= .org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:58:16 +0800 (WST) =46rom: Bernd Felsche Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Bruce Plecan tapped away at the keyboard with: > > >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for > > >> barometric pressure, air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow > > >> Meter doesn't have any of this. > > > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass > > Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters > > (as the original poster was asking about) do have an air > > temperature sensor built into them, and provide it along with > > the flapper position. The later "hot-wire" type of airflow > > meters are themselves temperature sensitive, so ambient > > temperature is accounted for automatically, > It still is calculating MASS, which was the point. For proper > tuning you need an air temp timing correction, IMO.. And mixture adjustment as fuel vapourization varies with inlet temperature. The flap-type meter is not a mass meter; it's a air momentum meter. (i.e. mass * velocity) Air mass is then usually calculated by the ECU with the aid of an on-board barometric pressure transducer. That's the reason why many Bosch ECU boxes have an air vent. - --=20 /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! | X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature| / \ and postings | to help me spread! | - -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the = quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi= .org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 02:07:18 +0100 =46rom: "P.J.Berg" Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Montebello, eh! Thats the name of a place close to me here in Oslo No= rway. :o) J. P.J.Berg BergRace at Aircooled.net - ----- Original Message ----- =46rom: "James Montebello" To: Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 6:10 PM Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? > On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric pressure, > >> air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of = this. > > > > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass > > Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters (as= the > original poster was asking about) do have an air temperature sensor= built > into them, and provide it along with the flapper position. The lat= er > "hot-wire" type of airflow meters are themselves temperature sensit= ive, > so ambient temperature is accounted for automatically. > > To the first poster, if you know airflow correctly, you don't need = to > know engine speed. Bosch K-Jet doesn't have an engine speed input. > It does usually have some input related to the throttle position > (depending on the type, this is either a MAP reference, or a TPS). > > > > Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just = a MAP to > > do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem = to be > > doing because of Baro. > > I would think that MAP would be directly related to barometric pres= sure, > since lower barometric would automatically mean lower MAP for other= wise > identical conditions. Since you want less fuel at altitude, and yo= u'd > get a lower MAP value at altitude, a fuel curve matched to MAP, wit= h > throttle compensation for acceleration, would be adequate. > > > It's funny how many people are suddenly showing up wanting to repla= ce > airflow meters with MAP output. I'd thought about doing exactly th= e > same thing to by L-Jet equipped Alfa. > > james montebello > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without th= e quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-e= fi.org > - -------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the = quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi= .org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #408 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". --Boundary_(ID_oNZtWcTZ70Ui3iGTF3z4Uw)-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From BRYANTE at ghsp.com Tue Dec 5 13:42:51 2000 From: BRYANTE at ghsp.com (Eric Bryant) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:42:51 -0800 Subject: Suzuki cycle ECUs? Message-ID: Is anyone out there messing around with the late-model Suzuki motorcycle ECUs? The Hayabusa, TL1000S, TL1000R, and'98-'99 GSX-R750 all use a similar ECU. Right now, I'm working on digging a TL1000R ECU board out of an inch of potting material. It'd be great if there was someone to share some information with once I've freed the board. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante at ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From pford at qnx.com Tue Dec 5 13:52:37 2000 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:52:37 -0800 Subject: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Message-ID: Previously, you (Diehl, Jeffrey) wrote: { Thanx for your reply. I have a few more questions, though. { { You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric pressure, { air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of this. the stock air flow meter does have an ambient air temp sensor, and it measures the air pressure drop in the manifold, by figuring out the airflow caused by it { { I can see how one might argue that the difference between the engine vac and { the barametric pressure is what the AFM is measuring, so if this is correct, { I can see why I'd need the two pressure sensors. altitude compensation for one, the baro pressure isn't fixed either { { I can see where it would be NICE to know air temp, but my ECU doesn't seem { to use it. In lue of that, couldn't I just rely on the Ox sensor to adjust { fuel correctly? it does, just it mixes the signal check out the schematic { { Would simply tying a potentiometer (sp?) to the throttle linkage be enough { to replace the AFM? yeap IF the load is fixed and never varies that much { { Otherwise, would I need a circuit much more complex than a MAF and an OPamp? { { Thanx again, { Mike Diehl. { -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From MarkRShirley at eaton.com Tue Dec 5 15:21:21 2000 From: MarkRShirley at eaton.com (Shirley, Mark R) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:21:21 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: Hope you guys can help. This is gonna sound wierd, but here goes. I have a small 4cylinder diesel engine (not VW) that I am going to turbocharge. The engine was never available turbocharged, so there's no way to use the stock fuel pump for boost enrichment. As anybody who's familiar with diesels knows, there's a fuel screw on the side of the pump that pushes on a cam inside the pump for enrichment. I wanted to try and use a coil and plunger arrangment to push on this cam, only when under boost. So what I am thinking is a 12V, PWM output based on a MAP/boost sensor input, and maybe Air temp. How simple would such a circuit be? I am not an EE, but a ME, with a little EE experience. Programming is not a problem. Designing circuits, that's a different story. So MAP / IAT ---> processor or circuit ----> single PWM output (could be high amperage,) (depends on the force (needed to overcome pump (internal spring press.) If there was an easy way to do such a system, would it be easily tunable? Pots on a breadboard, or laptop? A lookup table seemed the simplest to tune to me, but perhaps not to build. Any help is appreciated. Thanks! Mark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From johnd at autoartisans.com Tue Dec 5 16:05:13 2000 From: johnd at autoartisans.com (John Dammeyer) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:05:13 -0800 Subject: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Message-ID: My two cents here... Regarding the need for a barometric sensor: If and only if your intake manifold was under static conditions when the intake valve opened would a Barometer not be needed. What I mean by this is if the intake valve was open long enough so the pressure inside the cylinder was identical to the pressure inside the intake manifold when the intake valve closed could you use only a MAP sensor. However, life is dynamic and so is the airflow which is why volumetric efficiency is part of the equation. Volumetric efficiency is a measure of how much air makes it into the cylinder given that the air doesn't start moving quickly until the piston is at about 75 degrees ATDC. Then at the bottom of the stroke the piston stars moving upwards but air/fuel is still moving into the cylinder; assuming the intake valve is still open. As the piston moves down, it creates a low pressure area and air from the high pressure area moves to equalize the pressure. How fast the air moves and how much air ends up inside the cyclinder depends on the _difference_ in pressure. So without knowing the ambient pressure and temperature you don't know the mass of the air that has ended up in the cylinder because you don't know how much pressure there was to push the air into the intake manifold past the throttle plate. Now there are systems that don't have the barometer and they do function but they just aren't as accurate. Even a Haltech that I opened up a few years ago had a separate barometer on board. I also read a while ago that the caraburator's venturi measures flow not mass and that is why the carburator delivers a richer mixture at altitude; velocity of the air is the same, drawing the same amount of fuel but less O2 molecules available. Same thing with the flapper type injector controller. Years ago my 76 SAAB would idle at a much higher RPM with a change of about 2000' wheras my Turbo 900 runs exactly the same regardless of the altitude. Brings up an interesting question. For a Turbo'd engine using a MAP sensor obviously the need for the Barometer goes away if the engine is always under a slight amount of boost. Perhaps the barometer sensor needs to be connected to the front of the throttle plate. Perhaps that's why SAAB went to a hot wire mass air flow sensor instead. Regards, John Dammeyer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From johnd at autoartisans.com Tue Dec 5 16:07:35 2000 From: johnd at autoartisans.com (John Dammeyer) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:07:35 -0800 Subject: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning Message-ID: Hi, I'd add one thing for tuning a SAAB Turbo for more performance. My Cousin in the UK had is 900 upgraded to use a water cooled intercooler. Had a separate water pump and radiator and apparently was worth about 25 extra ponies. Might be the best place for that extra bit before mucking with the internals. John Dammeyer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From pford at qnx.com Tue Dec 5 16:20:46 2000 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:20:46 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: why not use a diaphragm(SP??) like a waste gate that way you can vary the enrichment. You are aware that it might not be needed anyways Previously, you (Shirley, Mark R) wrote: { Hope you guys can help. This is gonna sound wierd, but here goes. { { I have a small 4cylinder diesel engine (not VW) that I am going to { turbocharge. { The engine was never available turbocharged, so there's no way to use the { stock { fuel pump for boost enrichment. As anybody who's familiar with diesels { knows, { there's a fuel screw on the side of the pump that pushes on a cam inside the { pump for enrichment. { I wanted to try and use a coil and plunger arrangment to push on this cam, { only when { under boost. So what I am thinking is a 12V, PWM output based on a { MAP/boost sensor { input, and maybe Air temp. How simple would such a circuit be? I am not an { EE, but a ME, with a little EE experience. Programming is not a problem. { Designing circuits, that's a { different story. { { So MAP / IAT ---> processor or circuit ----> single PWM output (could be { high amperage,) { { (depends on the force { { (needed to overcome pump { { (internal spring press.) { { If there was an easy way to do such a system, would it be easily tunable? { Pots on a breadboard, or laptop? A lookup table seemed the simplest to tune { to me, but perhaps { not to build. { { Any help is appreciated. { Thanks! { Mark { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org { -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From vlkslvr at hotmail.com Tue Dec 5 16:35:09 2000 From: vlkslvr at hotmail.com (justin ivan) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:35:09 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: Mark, I'm an ME too so I share your pain. As far as this idea, it is totally possible, i used to work with a solenoid valve company that had these type of coils. Of course the testing that I witnessed was all controlled by a pc but I don't see why some pots on a breadboard wouldn't work. Not being an EE nor into diesels, I have to ask, why not use a pure mechanical system that uses the positive intake pressure to displace a piston and thus move the cam? Something similar to a rising rate Fuel pressure regulator on a gas turbo car? Justin >From: "Shirley, Mark R" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" >Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:59:59 -0500 > >Hope you guys can help. This is gonna sound wierd, but here goes. > >I have a small 4cylinder diesel engine (not VW) that I am going to >turbocharge. >The engine was never available turbocharged, so there's no way to use the >stock >fuel pump for boost enrichment. As anybody who's familiar with diesels >knows, >there's a fuel screw on the side of the pump that pushes on a cam inside >the >pump for enrichment. >I wanted to try and use a coil and plunger arrangment to push on this cam, >only when >under boost. So what I am thinking is a 12V, PWM output based on a >MAP/boost sensor >input, and maybe Air temp. How simple would such a circuit be? I am not >an >EE, but a ME, with a little EE experience. Programming is not a problem. >Designing circuits, that's a >different story. > >So MAP / IAT ---> processor or circuit ----> single PWM output (could >be >high amperage,) > >(depends on the force > >(needed to overcome pump > >(internal spring press.) > >If there was an easy way to do such a system, would it be easily tunable? >Pots on a breadboard, or laptop? A lookup table seemed the simplest to >tune >to me, but perhaps >not to build. > >Any help is appreciated. >Thanks! >Mark >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From MarkRShirley at eaton.com Tue Dec 5 18:52:04 2000 From: MarkRShirley at eaton.com (Shirley, Mark R) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:52:04 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: That's a perfectly reasonable thought. I just thought it would be much easier to tune with some sort of controller. If I went pure mechanical, sure it would work, but i would have to have a lathe, and play around with many different springs to tune it, (not user-friendly) and the worst part of it is coming up with some sort of diaphragm. The rest of it I could deal with, but the diaphragm is tough. You almost have to know somebody somewhere who makes these things. It would have to be a rubber with a metal disc applied to seat the spring on. Not to mention that a controller would be a much cooler way to do it. Much more tunable. -----Original Message----- From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:34 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Mark, I'm an ME too so I share your pain. As far as this idea, it is totally possible, i used to work with a solenoid valve company that had these type of coils. Of course the testing that I witnessed was all controlled by a pc but I don't see why some pots on a breadboard wouldn't work. Not being an EE nor into diesels, I have to ask, why not use a pure mechanical system that uses the positive intake pressure to displace a piston and thus move the cam? Something similar to a rising rate Fuel pressure regulator on a gas turbo car? Justin >From: "Shirley, Mark R" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" >Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:59:59 -0500 > >Hope you guys can help. This is gonna sound wierd, but here goes. > >I have a small 4cylinder diesel engine (not VW) that I am going to >turbocharge. >The engine was never available turbocharged, so there's no way to use the >stock >fuel pump for boost enrichment. As anybody who's familiar with diesels >knows, >there's a fuel screw on the side of the pump that pushes on a cam inside >the >pump for enrichment. >I wanted to try and use a coil and plunger arrangment to push on this cam, >only when >under boost. So what I am thinking is a 12V, PWM output based on a >MAP/boost sensor >input, and maybe Air temp. How simple would such a circuit be? I am not >an >EE, but a ME, with a little EE experience. Programming is not a problem. >Designing circuits, that's a >different story. > >So MAP / IAT ---> processor or circuit ----> single PWM output (could >be >high amperage,) > >(depends on the force > >(needed to overcome pump > >(internal spring press.) > >If there was an easy way to do such a system, would it be easily tunable? >Pots on a breadboard, or laptop? A lookup table seemed the simplest to >tune >to me, but perhaps >not to build. > >Any help is appreciated. >Thanks! >Mark >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From pford at qnx.com Tue Dec 5 19:50:10 2000 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:50:10 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: use a waste gate controller its already designed to work at boost pressures in an automotive temp range and the use springs and levers to make your curves. Once again are you sure you need to do this? Previously, you (Shirley, Mark R) wrote: { That's a perfectly reasonable thought. I just thought it would be much { easier { to tune with some sort of controller. If I went pure mechanical, sure it { would { work, but i would have to have a lathe, and play around with many different { springs { to tune it, (not user-friendly) and the worst part of it is coming up with { some sort of diaphragm. The rest of it I could deal with, but the diaphragm { is tough. { You almost have to know somebody somewhere who makes these things. It would { have { to be a rubber with a metal disc applied to seat the spring on. { Not to mention that a controller would be a much cooler way to do it. Much { more tunable. { { -----Original Message----- { From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] { Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:34 AM { To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org { Subject: Re: Wierd application, hypothetical question. { { { -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From jhaines at lingenfelter.com Tue Dec 5 20:06:19 2000 From: jhaines at lingenfelter.com (Jason R. Haines) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:06:19 -0800 Subject: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Message-ID: Some OE engine management systems have a table that modifies or corrects the mass air flow sensor readings for changes in intake air temperature. Jason > > > >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric > pressure, > > >> air temp, and RPM. The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of this. > > > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass > > > Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters (as the > > original poster was asking about) do have an air temperature sensor built > > into them, and provide it along with the flapper position. The later > > "hot-wire" type of airflow meters are themselves temperature sensitive, > > so ambient temperature is accounted for automatically, > > It still is calculating MASS, which was the point. > For proper tuning you need an air temp timing correction, IMO.. > > > To the first poster, if you know airflow correctly, you don't need to > > know engine speed. Bosch K-Jet doesn't have an engine speed input. > > It does usually have some input related to the throttle position > > (depending on the type, this is either a MAP reference, or a TPS). > > He was talkingabout removing it, and then to approximate the air being > consumed you need rpm, if designing a system other then AFM, or MAF > > > > Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just a MAP > to > > > do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem to be > > > doing because of Baro. > > I would think that MAP would be directly related to barometric pressure, > > since lower barometric would automatically mean lower MAP for otherwise > > identical conditions. Since you want less fuel at altitude, and you'd > > get a lower MAP value at altitude, a fuel curve matched to MAP, with > > throttle compensation for acceleration, would be adequate. > > Try doing it for a while and check back with me. > I would be much easier to develope a single table of 10 items then having to > do one of 100+. > To get the *proper* resolution IMP. > > > It's funny how many people are suddenly showing up wanting to replace > > airflow meters with MAP output. I'd thought about doing exactly the > > same thing to by L-Jet equipped Alfa. > > By no means new. > Bruce > > > > james montebello > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From vlkslvr at hotmail.com Tue Dec 5 20:11:39 2000 From: vlkslvr at hotmail.com (justin ivan) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:11:39 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: Pat , You raise an intersting point about a waste gate controller. Now did you mean an electronic version (Ala Apex i AVCR) or a regular mechanical waste gate actuator? Either would work well. I agree with you notion of this being necessary at all, if it was deemed so I think that a mechanical format would be the best. On a side note, not knowing too much about diesels, how about a propane injection instead of the turbo. I am not sure how well they work on a N/A deisel but I know that on a turo diesel they make phenomenal gains in hp and esp torque. Justin >From: Pat Ford >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:50:57 -0500 (EST) > >use a waste gate controller its already designed to work at boost pressures >in an automotive temp range and the use springs and levers to make your >curves. Once again are you sure you need to do this? > >Previously, you (Shirley, Mark R) wrote: >{ That's a perfectly reasonable thought. I just thought it would be much >{ easier >{ to tune with some sort of controller. If I went pure mechanical, sure it >{ would >{ work, but i would have to have a lathe, and play around with many >different >{ springs >{ to tune it, (not user-friendly) and the worst part of it is coming up >with >{ some sort of diaphragm. The rest of it I could deal with, but the >diaphragm >{ is tough. >{ You almost have to know somebody somewhere who makes these things. It >would >{ have >{ to be a rubber with a metal disc applied to seat the spring on. >{ Not to mention that a controller would be a much cooler way to do it. >Much >{ more tunable. >{ >{ -----Original Message----- >{ From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] >{ Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:34 AM >{ To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >{ Subject: Re: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >{ >{ >{ > > >-- >Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From pford at qnx.com Tue Dec 5 20:53:26 2000 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:53:26 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: I was thinking plain mechanical but if there was a better choice ( SAAB APC??) that would work Previously, you (justin ivan) wrote: { Pat , { You raise an intersting point about a waste gate controller. Now did you { mean an electronic version (Ala Apex i AVCR) or a regular mechanical waste { gate actuator? Either would work well. { I agree with you notion of this being necessary at all, if it was deemed so { I think that a mechanical format would be the best. { On a side note, not knowing too much about diesels, how about a propane { injection instead of the turbo. I am not sure how well they work on a N/A { deisel but I know that on a turo diesel they make phenomenal gains in hp and { esp torque. { Justin { I think the propane is mainly for cooling isn't it ( inject liquid propane??) { { >From: Pat Ford { >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org { >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org { >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. { >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:50:57 -0500 (EST) { > { >use a waste gate controller its already designed to work at boost pressures { >in an automotive temp range and the use springs and levers to make your { >curves. Once again are you sure you need to do this? { > { >Previously, you (Shirley, Mark R) wrote: { >{ That's a perfectly reasonable thought. I just thought it would be much { >{ easier { >{ to tune with some sort of controller. If I went pure mechanical, sure it { >{ would { >{ work, but i would have to have a lathe, and play around with many { >different { >{ springs { >{ to tune it, (not user-friendly) and the worst part of it is coming up { >with { >{ some sort of diaphragm. The rest of it I could deal with, but the { >diaphragm { >{ is tough. { >{ You almost have to know somebody somewhere who makes these things. It { >would { >{ have { >{ to be a rubber with a metal disc applied to seat the spring on. { >{ Not to mention that a controller would be a much cooler way to do it. { >Much { >{ more tunable. { >{ { >{ -----Original Message----- { >{ From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] { >{ Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:34 AM { >{ To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org { >{ Subject: Re: Wierd application, hypothetical question. { >{ { >{ { >{ { > { > { >-- { >Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com { >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com { >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews { >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 { > { >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the { >quotes) { >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org { > { { _____________________________________________________________________________________ { Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com { { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- { To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) { in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org { -- Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From MarkRShirley at eaton.com Tue Dec 5 20:54:29 2000 From: MarkRShirley at eaton.com (Shirley, Mark R) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:54:29 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: I am doing propane as well. Propane tends to not work very well on a NA diesel, since you have little excess air to begin with. Propane works on a Turbodiesel so well since you have an abundance of excess air, even if it is lower density. I have many SAE papers on this, and that was the consensus. I hadn't thought of a wastegate controller. There is still the dilemma of creating a boost bellows system. -----Original Message----- From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 3:11 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Pat , You raise an intersting point about a waste gate controller. Now did you mean an electronic version (Ala Apex i AVCR) or a regular mechanical waste gate actuator? Either would work well. I agree with you notion of this being necessary at all, if it was deemed so I think that a mechanical format would be the best. On a side note, not knowing too much about diesels, how about a propane injection instead of the turbo. I am not sure how well they work on a N/A deisel but I know that on a turo diesel they make phenomenal gains in hp and esp torque. Justin >From: Pat Ford >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:50:57 -0500 (EST) > >use a waste gate controller its already designed to work at boost pressures >in an automotive temp range and the use springs and levers to make your >curves. Once again are you sure you need to do this? > >Previously, you (Shirley, Mark R) wrote: >{ That's a perfectly reasonable thought. I just thought it would be much >{ easier >{ to tune with some sort of controller. If I went pure mechanical, sure it >{ would >{ work, but i would have to have a lathe, and play around with many >different >{ springs >{ to tune it, (not user-friendly) and the worst part of it is coming up >with >{ some sort of diaphragm. The rest of it I could deal with, but the >diaphragm >{ is tough. >{ You almost have to know somebody somewhere who makes these things. It >would >{ have >{ to be a rubber with a metal disc applied to seat the spring on. >{ Not to mention that a controller would be a much cooler way to do it. >Much >{ more tunable. >{ >{ -----Original Message----- >{ From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] >{ Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:34 AM >{ To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >{ Subject: Re: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >{ >{ >{ > > >-- >Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From vlkslvr at hotmail.com Tue Dec 5 22:06:52 2000 From: vlkslvr at hotmail.com (justin ivan) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:06:52 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: Saab Apc is interesting, I believe that Ford/Merkur 4cyl turbos had a similar set-up. Propan is like NOS is for petrol cars, only makes more power in a safer manner. Not really sure the exact technology behind it, just know it works real well (Look into truck magazines with the ford Powerstroke TurboDiesel) >From: Pat Ford >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:54:17 -0500 (EST) > > I was thinking plain mechanical but if there was a better choice ( SAAB >APC??) >that would work > >Previously, you (justin ivan) wrote: >{ Pat , >{ You raise an intersting point about a waste gate controller. Now did you >{ mean an electronic version (Ala Apex i AVCR) or a regular mechanical >waste >{ gate actuator? Either would work well. >{ I agree with you notion of this being necessary at all, if it was deemed >so >{ I think that a mechanical format would be the best. >{ On a side note, not knowing too much about diesels, how about a propane >{ injection instead of the turbo. I am not sure how well they work on a N/A >{ deisel but I know that on a turo diesel they make phenomenal gains in hp >and >{ esp torque. >{ Justin >{ > > I think the propane is mainly for cooling isn't it ( inject liquid >propane??) > > >{ >{ >From: Pat Ford >{ >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >{ >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >{ >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >{ >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:50:57 -0500 (EST) >{ > >{ >use a waste gate controller its already designed to work at boost >pressures >{ >in an automotive temp range and the use springs and levers to make your >{ >curves. Once again are you sure you need to do this? >{ > >{ >Previously, you (Shirley, Mark R) wrote: >{ >{ That's a perfectly reasonable thought. I just thought it would be >much >{ >{ easier >{ >{ to tune with some sort of controller. If I went pure mechanical, sure >it >{ >{ would >{ >{ work, but i would have to have a lathe, and play around with many >{ >different >{ >{ springs >{ >{ to tune it, (not user-friendly) and the worst part of it is coming up >{ >with >{ >{ some sort of diaphragm. The rest of it I could deal with, but the >{ >diaphragm >{ >{ is tough. >{ >{ You almost have to know somebody somewhere who makes these things. It >{ >would >{ >{ have >{ >{ to be a rubber with a metal disc applied to seat the spring on. >{ >{ Not to mention that a controller would be a much cooler way to do it. >{ >Much >{ >{ more tunable. >{ >{ >{ >{ -----Original Message----- >{ >{ From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] >{ >{ Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:34 AM >{ >{ To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >{ >{ Subject: Re: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >{ >{ >{ >{ >{ >{ >{ > >{ > >{ >-- >{ >Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com >{ >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com >{ >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews >{ >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M >1W8 >{ > >{ > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >{ >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >{ >quotes) >{ >in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org >{ > >{ >{ >_____________________________________________________________________________________ >{ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com >{ >{ >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >{ To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >{ in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org >{ > >-- >Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From vlkslvr at hotmail.com Tue Dec 5 22:10:20 2000 From: vlkslvr at hotmail.com (justin ivan) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:10:20 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: Like I said, I don't know that much about propane on diesels just know that on turbos it makes a hell of a difference. Might be able to us an adjutable wastegae controll modified for your purposes. I guess to reall be able to help you (even if it were solenoid operated) it would help if you had an idea of the stroke vs force required for the pump. Justin >From: "Shirley, Mark R" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:54:06 -0500 > >I am doing propane as well. Propane tends to not work very well on a NA >diesel, >since you have little excess air to begin with. Propane works on a >Turbodiesel >so well since you have an abundance of excess air, even if it is lower >density. >I have many SAE papers on this, and that was the consensus. > >I hadn't thought of a wastegate controller. There is still the dilemma of >creating >a boost bellows system. > >-----Original Message----- >From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 3:11 PM >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > >Pat , >You raise an intersting point about a waste gate controller. Now did you >mean an electronic version (Ala Apex i AVCR) or a regular mechanical waste >gate actuator? Either would work well. >I agree with you notion of this being necessary at all, if it was deemed so >I think that a mechanical format would be the best. >On a side note, not knowing too much about diesels, how about a propane >injection instead of the turbo. I am not sure how well they work on a N/A >deisel but I know that on a turo diesel they make phenomenal gains in hp >and > >esp torque. >Justin > > > >From: Pat Ford > >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:50:57 -0500 (EST) > > > >use a waste gate controller its already designed to work at boost >pressures > > >in an automotive temp range and the use springs and levers to make your > >curves. Once again are you sure you need to do this? > > > >Previously, you (Shirley, Mark R) wrote: > >{ That's a perfectly reasonable thought. I just thought it would be much > >{ easier > >{ to tune with some sort of controller. If I went pure mechanical, sure >it > >{ would > >{ work, but i would have to have a lathe, and play around with many > >different > >{ springs > >{ to tune it, (not user-friendly) and the worst part of it is coming up > >with > >{ some sort of diaphragm. The rest of it I could deal with, but the > >diaphragm > >{ is tough. > >{ You almost have to know somebody somewhere who makes these things. It > >would > >{ have > >{ to be a rubber with a metal disc applied to seat the spring on. > >{ Not to mention that a controller would be a much cooler way to do it. > >Much > >{ more tunable. > >{ > >{ -----Original Message----- > >{ From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > >{ Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:34 AM > >{ To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >{ Subject: Re: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > >{ > >{ > >{ > > > > > >-- > >Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com > >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews > >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From nacelp at bright.net Tue Dec 5 22:39:39 2000 From: nacelp at bright.net (Bruce Plecan) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:39:39 -0800 Subject: Diesel Power adder Message-ID: > Propan is like NOS is for petrol cars, only makes more power in a safer > manner. If used as a power adder (as in racing) just slightly, then NOS. > Not really sure the exact technology behind it, just know it works > real well (Look into truck magazines with the ford Powerstroke TurboDiesel) Diesels usually have an excess of O2 after the reaction, using propane always for the burning of it. A power adder typically brings oxygen or to the equation. Some like water bring both. Bruce > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From MarkRShirley at eaton.com Wed Dec 6 13:20:27 2000 From: MarkRShirley at eaton.com (Shirley, Mark R) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 05:20:27 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: Well, stroke appears to be in the vicinity of 1/2 - 1 inch. Force reqd, I don't know yet. I have a few spare pumps, I'll have to back a screw out and insert a tension gage. I think the solenoid is not the hard part, but the control circuit. Something to take in Map voltage(assume a GM map sensor), IAT, and produce a PWM output proportional to the input map voltage. IAT would be a modifier maybe. Depending on the force required, will determine amperage I think. Like I said, programming is not the problem. Control circuitry is. -----Original Message----- From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 5:10 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Like I said, I don't know that much about propane on diesels just know that on turbos it makes a hell of a difference. Might be able to us an adjutable wastegae controll modified for your purposes. I guess to reall be able to help you (even if it were solenoid operated) it would help if you had an idea of the stroke vs force required for the pump. Justin >From: "Shirley, Mark R" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:54:06 -0500 > >I am doing propane as well. Propane tends to not work very well on a NA >diesel, >since you have little excess air to begin with. Propane works on a >Turbodiesel >so well since you have an abundance of excess air, even if it is lower >density. >I have many SAE papers on this, and that was the consensus. > >I hadn't thought of a wastegate controller. There is still the dilemma of >creating >a boost bellows system. > >-----Original Message----- >From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 3:11 PM >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > >Pat , >You raise an intersting point about a waste gate controller. Now did you >mean an electronic version (Ala Apex i AVCR) or a regular mechanical waste >gate actuator? Either would work well. >I agree with you notion of this being necessary at all, if it was deemed so >I think that a mechanical format would be the best. >On a side note, not knowing too much about diesels, how about a propane >injection instead of the turbo. I am not sure how well they work on a N/A >deisel but I know that on a turo diesel they make phenomenal gains in hp >and > >esp torque. >Justin > > > >From: Pat Ford > >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:50:57 -0500 (EST) > > > >use a waste gate controller its already designed to work at boost >pressures > > >in an automotive temp range and the use springs and levers to make your > >curves. Once again are you sure you need to do this? > > > >Previously, you (Shirley, Mark R) wrote: > >{ That's a perfectly reasonable thought. I just thought it would be much > >{ easier > >{ to tune with some sort of controller. If I went pure mechanical, sure >it > >{ would > >{ work, but i would have to have a lathe, and play around with many > >different > >{ springs > >{ to tune it, (not user-friendly) and the worst part of it is coming up > >with > >{ some sort of diaphragm. The rest of it I could deal with, but the > >diaphragm > >{ is tough. > >{ You almost have to know somebody somewhere who makes these things. It > >would > >{ have > >{ to be a rubber with a metal disc applied to seat the spring on. > >{ Not to mention that a controller would be a much cooler way to do it. > >Much > >{ more tunable. > >{ > >{ -----Original Message----- > >{ From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > >{ Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:34 AM > >{ To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >{ Subject: Re: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > >{ > >{ > >{ > > > > > >-- > >Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com > >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews > >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ _ >_________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From MarkRShirley at eaton.com Wed Dec 6 14:45:51 2000 From: MarkRShirley at eaton.com (Shirley, Mark R) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:45:51 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: Okay, looks like this needs to be a pneumatic job. I found some info on Voice coil actuators, and the strokes are too small. From 0 to 0.25inch. Oh well. It still would have been cool to program one. -----Original Message----- From: Shirley, Mark R [mailto:MarkRShirley at eaton.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 8:20 AM To: 'diy_efi at diy-efi.org' Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Well, stroke appears to be in the vicinity of 1/2 - 1 inch. Force reqd, I don't know yet. I have a few spare pumps, I'll have to back a screw out and insert a tension gage. I think the solenoid is not the hard part, but the control circuit. Something to take in Map voltage(assume a GM map sensor), IAT, and produce a PWM output proportional to the input map voltage. IAT would be a modifier maybe. Depending on the force required, will determine amperage I think. Like I said, programming is not the problem. Control circuitry is. -----Original Message----- From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 5:10 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Like I said, I don't know that much about propane on diesels just know that on turbos it makes a hell of a difference. Might be able to us an adjutable wastegae controll modified for your purposes. I guess to reall be able to help you (even if it were solenoid operated) it would help if you had an idea of the stroke vs force required for the pump. Justin >From: "Shirley, Mark R" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:54:06 -0500 > >I am doing propane as well. Propane tends to not work very well on a NA >diesel, >since you have little excess air to begin with. Propane works on a >Turbodiesel >so well since you have an abundance of excess air, even if it is lower >density. >I have many SAE papers on this, and that was the consensus. > >I hadn't thought of a wastegate controller. There is still the dilemma of >creating >a boost bellows system. > >-----Original Message----- >From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 3:11 PM >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > >Pat , >You raise an intersting point about a waste gate controller. Now did you >mean an electronic version (Ala Apex i AVCR) or a regular mechanical waste >gate actuator? Either would work well. >I agree with you notion of this being necessary at all, if it was deemed so >I think that a mechanical format would be the best. >On a side note, not knowing too much about diesels, how about a propane >injection instead of the turbo. I am not sure how well they work on a N/A >deisel but I know that on a turo diesel they make phenomenal gains in hp >and > >esp torque. >Justin > > > >From: Pat Ford > >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:50:57 -0500 (EST) > > > >use a waste gate controller its already designed to work at boost >pressures > > >in an automotive temp range and the use springs and levers to make your > >curves. Once again are you sure you need to do this? > > > >Previously, you (Shirley, Mark R) wrote: > >{ That's a perfectly reasonable thought. I just thought it would be much > >{ easier > >{ to tune with some sort of controller. If I went pure mechanical, sure >it > >{ would > >{ work, but i would have to have a lathe, and play around with many > >different > >{ springs > >{ to tune it, (not user-friendly) and the worst part of it is coming up > >with > >{ some sort of diaphragm. The rest of it I could deal with, but the > >diaphragm > >{ is tough. > >{ You almost have to know somebody somewhere who makes these things. It > >would > >{ have > >{ to be a rubber with a metal disc applied to seat the spring on. > >{ Not to mention that a controller would be a much cooler way to do it. > >Much > >{ more tunable. > >{ > >{ -----Original Message----- > >{ From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > >{ Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:34 AM > >{ To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >{ Subject: Re: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > >{ > >{ > >{ > > > > > >-- > >Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com > >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews > >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ _ >_________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From vlkslvr at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 16:09:38 2000 From: vlkslvr at hotmail.com (justin ivan) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:09:38 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: I assume that maybe by voice coil actuators you mean as in speakers? Either way, .5 to 1" of stroke for an electormechanical solenoid really is asking for too much if you need any considerable force. I could dig out some of the charts relating to stroke vs force that I have hiding but I don't see it happening. if it were .25 to .33 or so, you might be able to get away with it. Justin >From: "Shirley, Mark R" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:45:22 -0500 > >Okay, looks like this needs to be a pneumatic job. I found some info >on Voice coil actuators, and the strokes are too small. From 0 to >0.25inch. >Oh well. It still would have been cool to program one. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Shirley, Mark R [mailto:MarkRShirley at eaton.com] >Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 8:20 AM >To: 'diy_efi at diy-efi.org' >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > >Well, stroke appears to be in the vicinity of 1/2 - 1 inch. Force reqd, I >don't >know yet. I have a few spare pumps, I'll have to back a screw out and >insert a >tension gage. I think the solenoid is not the hard part, but the control >circuit. >Something to take in Map voltage(assume a GM map sensor), IAT, and produce >a >PWM output >proportional to the input map voltage. IAT would be a modifier maybe. >Depending >on the force required, will determine amperage I think. Like I said, >programming is >not the problem. Control circuitry is. > >-----Original Message----- >From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] >Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 5:10 PM >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > >Like I said, I don't know that much about propane on diesels just know that >on turbos it makes a hell of a difference. >Might be able to us an adjutable wastegae controll modified for your >purposes. I guess to reall be able to help you (even if it were solenoid >operated) it would help if you had an idea of the stroke vs force required >for the pump. >Justin > > > >From: "Shirley, Mark R" > >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" > >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:54:06 -0500 > > > >I am doing propane as well. Propane tends to not work very well on a NA > >diesel, > >since you have little excess air to begin with. Propane works on a > >Turbodiesel > >so well since you have an abundance of excess air, even if it is lower > >density. > >I have many SAE papers on this, and that was the consensus. > > > >I hadn't thought of a wastegate controller. There is still the dilemma >of > >creating > >a boost bellows system. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > >Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 3:11 PM > >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > > > > >Pat , > >You raise an intersting point about a waste gate controller. Now did you > >mean an electronic version (Ala Apex i AVCR) or a regular mechanical >waste > >gate actuator? Either would work well. > >I agree with you notion of this being necessary at all, if it was deemed >so > >I think that a mechanical format would be the best. > >On a side note, not knowing too much about diesels, how about a propane > >injection instead of the turbo. I am not sure how well they work on a N/A > >deisel but I know that on a turo diesel they make phenomenal gains in hp > >and > > > >esp torque. > >Justin > > > > > > >From: Pat Ford > > >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:50:57 -0500 (EST) > > > > > >use a waste gate controller its already designed to work at boost > >pressures > > > > >in an automotive temp range and the use springs and levers to make your > > >curves. Once again are you sure you need to do this? > > > > > >Previously, you (Shirley, Mark R) wrote: > > >{ That's a perfectly reasonable thought. I just thought it would be >much > > >{ easier > > >{ to tune with some sort of controller. If I went pure mechanical, >sure > >it > > >{ would > > >{ work, but i would have to have a lathe, and play around with many > > >different > > >{ springs > > >{ to tune it, (not user-friendly) and the worst part of it is coming up > > >with > > >{ some sort of diaphragm. The rest of it I could deal with, but the > > >diaphragm > > >{ is tough. > > >{ You almost have to know somebody somewhere who makes these things. >It > > >would > > >{ have > > >{ to be a rubber with a metal disc applied to seat the spring on. > > >{ Not to mention that a controller would be a much cooler way to do it. > > >Much > > >{ more tunable. > > >{ > > >{ -----Original Message----- > > >{ From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > > >{ Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:34 AM > > >{ To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > >{ Subject: Re: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > >{ > > >{ > > >{ > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Pat Ford email: pford at qnx.com > > >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > > >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terence Matthews > > >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M >1W8 > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >- > > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > >quotes) > > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >_ > >_________ > >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From BRYANTE at ghsp.com Wed Dec 6 18:01:04 2000 From: BRYANTE at ghsp.com (Eric Bryant) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:01:04 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: > From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > > I assume that maybe by voice coil actuators you mean as in > speakers? Either > way, .5 to 1" of stroke for an electormechanical solenoid > really is asking > for too much if you need any considerable force. I could dig > out some of the > charts relating to stroke vs force that I have hiding but I > don't see it > happening. > if it were .25 to .33 or so, you might be able to get away with it. That's the beauty of a voice-coil actuator - you get a nearly-flat force vs. displacement curve, while a solenoid will yield some sort of exponential roll-off as the armature travels from the pole piece (the shape of the curve depending on a lot of factors, of course). With a solenoid, it's often necessary to use some mechanical advantage in order to keep the armature in the higher-force portion of the travel. You start getting non-linearities with increasing mechanical complexity (due to lash and so on), so this turns into a difficult motion-control problem. A voice coil may be a bit easier than a solenoid to work with, but something like a stepper motor will give a far-greater power density, and I think it'd be more appropriate for this application. At least that's where I'd start... Eric Bryant mailto:bryante at ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From vlkslvr at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 18:36:35 2000 From: vlkslvr at hotmail.com (justin ivan) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:36:35 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: Eric, Everything that you stated about solenoids is indeed accurate, now I don't know that much about voice coil actuators at all BUT you are 100% correct a stepper motor really is the way to go in this case. Do we have an idea of response time required? Solenoid's have a very rapid response time (on the order of 15 microseconds or less in most cases). Stepper motor is probably a bit slower then this but should fit this app OK Stepper motor is definately they way to go with this application, there are already plenty of circuits designed to control these suckers you just need to do a search. One of the things to look is CNC retrofits for milling machines. Justin >From: Eric Bryant >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:08:38 -0500 > > > From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > > Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > > > > > I assume that maybe by voice coil actuators you mean as in > > speakers? Either > > way, .5 to 1" of stroke for an electormechanical solenoid > > really is asking > > for too much if you need any considerable force. I could dig > > out some of the > > charts relating to stroke vs force that I have hiding but I > > don't see it > > happening. > > if it were .25 to .33 or so, you might be able to get away with it. > >That's the beauty of a voice-coil actuator - you get a nearly-flat force >vs. >displacement curve, while a solenoid will yield some sort of exponential >roll-off as the armature travels from the pole piece (the shape of the >curve >depending on a lot of factors, of course). > >With a solenoid, it's often necessary to use some mechanical advantage in >order to keep the armature in the higher-force portion of the travel. You >start getting non-linearities with increasing mechanical complexity (due to >lash and so on), so this turns into a difficult motion-control problem. > >A voice coil may be a bit easier than a solenoid to work with, but >something >like a stepper motor will give a far-greater power density, and I think >it'd >be more appropriate for this application. At least that's where I'd >start... > >Eric Bryant >mailto:bryante at ghsp.com >http://www.novagate.com/~bryante >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From MarkRShirley at eaton.com Wed Dec 6 18:52:02 2000 From: MarkRShirley at eaton.com (Shirley, Mark R) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:52:02 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: A stepper is an interesting idea. I'm assuming the control circuitry would be far different though. And the linkage to the control pin would be complex and/or hard to fabricate, with gears probably involved. Actually the newer VW turbodiesels control the pin I am trying to control with a stepper actuator to control the fuel collar. That would be a neat EFI project. Most of those pumps are capable of far in excess of 150HP. Of course that's more of a real EFI project, with requirments of DBW, RPM input etc. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Bryant [mailto:BRYANTE at ghsp.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 1:09 PM To: 'diy_efi at diy-efi.org' Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > > I assume that maybe by voice coil actuators you mean as in > speakers? Either > way, .5 to 1" of stroke for an electormechanical solenoid > really is asking > for too much if you need any considerable force. I could dig > out some of the > charts relating to stroke vs force that I have hiding but I > don't see it > happening. > if it were .25 to .33 or so, you might be able to get away with it. That's the beauty of a voice-coil actuator - you get a nearly-flat force vs. displacement curve, while a solenoid will yield some sort of exponential roll-off as the armature travels from the pole piece (the shape of the curve depending on a lot of factors, of course). With a solenoid, it's often necessary to use some mechanical advantage in order to keep the armature in the higher-force portion of the travel. You start getting non-linearities with increasing mechanical complexity (due to lash and so on), so this turns into a difficult motion-control problem. A voice coil may be a bit easier than a solenoid to work with, but something like a stepper motor will give a far-greater power density, and I think it'd be more appropriate for this application. At least that's where I'd start... Eric Bryant mailto:bryante at ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From vlkslvr at hotmail.com Wed Dec 6 19:08:51 2000 From: vlkslvr at hotmail.com (justin ivan) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:08:51 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: Ahh now we metnion the mighty VW, these are close to my heart(if you couldn't tell by my e-mail addy) The new vw turbodiesel is indeed capable or over 150hp, the new european model in fact has 150hp from the factory, of course they also use a variable vane turbo. Lots of neat tech in those cars. Back to the stepper motor, the control circuit would be pretty easy, should be able to make a simple look-up table that says for these engine parameters (which I am not sure what is measured on a diesel) and then move the stepper motor a certain amount. The movement of the stepper motor would be the easy part as control circuits are out there, the look-up table beyond my knowledge right now but check the archives. As far as the linkage to the control pin, might not be as hard as you think, lots of options, workm drive, simple rack and pinion or even a simple screw drive. I can envisiona few options, get me off-line if you want to discuss further, I don't want to get this thread too far off topic. >From: "Shirley, Mark R" >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:51:43 -0500 > >A stepper is an interesting idea. I'm assuming the control >circuitry would be far different though. And the linkage to the >control pin would be complex and/or hard to fabricate, with gears >probably involved. Actually the newer VW turbodiesels control the >pin I am trying to control with a stepper actuator to control the >fuel collar. That would be a neat EFI project. Most of those pumps >are capable of far in excess of 150HP. Of course that's more of a >real EFI project, with requirments of DBW, RPM input etc. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Eric Bryant [mailto:BRYANTE at ghsp.com] >Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 1:09 PM >To: 'diy_efi at diy-efi.org' >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > > > From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > > Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > > > > > I assume that maybe by voice coil actuators you mean as in > > speakers? Either > > way, .5 to 1" of stroke for an electormechanical solenoid > > really is asking > > for too much if you need any considerable force. I could dig > > out some of the > > charts relating to stroke vs force that I have hiding but I > > don't see it > > happening. > > if it were .25 to .33 or so, you might be able to get away with it. > >That's the beauty of a voice-coil actuator - you get a nearly-flat force >vs. >displacement curve, while a solenoid will yield some sort of exponential >roll-off as the armature travels from the pole piece (the shape of the >curve >depending on a lot of factors, of course). > >With a solenoid, it's often necessary to use some mechanical advantage in >order to keep the armature in the higher-force portion of the travel. You >start getting non-linearities with increasing mechanical complexity (due to >lash and so on), so this turns into a difficult motion-control problem. > >A voice coil may be a bit easier than a solenoid to work with, but >something >like a stepper motor will give a far-greater power density, and I think >it'd >be more appropriate for this application. At least that's where I'd >start... > >Eric Bryant >mailto:bryante at ghsp.com >http://www.novagate.com/~bryante >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From BRYANTE at ghsp.com Wed Dec 6 21:28:20 2000 From: BRYANTE at ghsp.com (Eric Bryant) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:28:20 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: > From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > > > Eric, > Everything that you stated about solenoids is indeed > accurate, now I don't > know that much about voice coil actuators at all BUT you are > 100% correct a > stepper motor really is the way to go in this case. Do we > have an idea of > response time required? Solenoid's have a very rapid response > time (on the > order of 15 microseconds or less in most cases). You can get solenoids with time constants in the millisecond range, but that's usually specified with no load attached. You'd have to add in the inertia of the rest of the system, and of course subtract the load from the solenoid force. It's pretty easy to see that you can shoot your response time in the foot once the solenoid is actually in a system (which is just fine if you're shooting for a PWM drive freq.). > Stepper > motor is probably a > bit slower then this but should fit this app OK > Stepper motor is definately they way to go with this > application, there are > already plenty of circuits designed to control these suckers > you just need > to do a search. One of the things to look is CNC retrofits > for milling > machines. Yea, there's a few circuits, parts, and control algorithms out there, if you know where to look. It's not going to be a simple task by any means, but the original poster hinted at some fabrication skills that may come in handy on this project. Eric Bryant mailto:bryante at ghsp.com http://www.novagate.com/~bryante ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au Thu Dec 7 07:32:24 2000 From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:32:24 -0800 Subject: DIY WBO2 Sensor circuit and EGT measurement Message-ID: John Dammeyer tapped away at the keyboard with: > > From: Bernd Felsche > > J?rgen Karlsson tapped away at the keyboard with: > > > I think that the obvious choice is to use a Atmel microcontroller, > > > these are as inexpensive as the cheaper PICs and have the > > > performance of the most expensive ones. They are made to be > > My choice as well. You may have seen my proposed circuit at > > http://members.iinet.net.au/~metapro/bernie/tech/EFI/vapour/DDL.html > Your circuit is also a great start; nice WEB page. I have a > Lawicel Startkit with two CANDIP processors here that have been > looking for a project. (Check out www.candip.com ) One of the > projects was a 4 channel EGT sender on to CAN bus and the other > would implement the WBO2 sensor. I'm waiting for the C compiler > to arrive and then some free time for creating the EGT sensor > package. I've just updated the web page again with even more information and revised schematic. You might want to have a look and see how it's possible to get a metric of exhaust gas temperature from the WBO2 sensor. I've known about the CANDIP since I first started thinking about the AVR-RISC as a microcontroller for engine sub-systems. CANDIP looks like a handy thing to have around if you routinely want to talk to other systems on a CAN bus taking much of the hard work out of interfacing, > The CANDIP processors also use the ATMEL device but include a > SJA1000 CAN device and RS232 drivers, and as my Honda Aircraft > Engine Ignition controller reports and gets diagnostic information > via CAN it only makes sense for me to use that as the core > processor. With the CANDIP extended temperature is not an issue > and since it has the ATMEL, CAN with driver and RS232 with driver > all on a 28 pin DIP footprint it can be easily prototyped into a > small weatherproof box. Seems like you've found the right hardware platform. > I will publish all software for the WBO2 sensor. That'd be great. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! | X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature| / \ and postings | to help me spread! | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From vlkslvr at hotmail.com Thu Dec 7 14:05:42 2000 From: vlkslvr at hotmail.com (justin ivan) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:05:42 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: Eric, You are right about the response times of solenoids with regards to load. The idea of a PWM driven solenoid is good in theory but seems to be lacking in this application. Sure a stepper motor will require some fabbing but an me should be able to handle it ok. Justin >From: Eric Bryant >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:35:55 -0500 > > > From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > > Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > > > > > > > Eric, > > Everything that you stated about solenoids is indeed > > accurate, now I don't > > know that much about voice coil actuators at all BUT you are > > 100% correct a > > stepper motor really is the way to go in this case. Do we > > have an idea of > > response time required? Solenoid's have a very rapid response > > time (on the > > order of 15 microseconds or less in most cases). > >You can get solenoids with time constants in the millisecond range, but >that's usually specified with no load attached. You'd have to add in the >inertia of the rest of the system, and of course subtract the load from the >solenoid force. It's pretty easy to see that you can shoot your response >time in the foot once the solenoid is actually in a system (which is just >fine if you're shooting for a PWM drive freq.). > > > Stepper > > motor is probably a > > bit slower then this but should fit this app OK > > Stepper motor is definately they way to go with this > > application, there are > > already plenty of circuits designed to control these suckers > > you just need > > to do a search. One of the things to look is CNC retrofits > > for milling > > machines. > >Yea, there's a few circuits, parts, and control algorithms out there, if >you >know where to look. It's not going to be a simple task by any means, but >the original poster hinted at some fabrication skills that may come in >handy >on this project. > >Eric Bryant >mailto:bryante at ghsp.com >http://www.novagate.com/~bryante >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From MarkRShirley at eaton.com Thu Dec 7 14:47:50 2000 From: MarkRShirley at eaton.com (Shirley, Mark R) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:47:50 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: At this point I will probably just put the pneumatic system on the car, since I have it designed already, and keep my eyes open for linear stepper actuators, then convert. So far I haven't found much in Steppers that I can package in the system elegantly like the pneumatic can. -----Original Message----- From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 9:05 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Eric, You are right about the response times of solenoids with regards to load. The idea of a PWM driven solenoid is good in theory but seems to be lacking in this application. Sure a stepper motor will require some fabbing but an me should be able to handle it ok. Justin >From: Eric Bryant >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" >Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. >Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:35:55 -0500 > > > From: justin ivan [mailto:vlkslvr at hotmail.com] > > Subject: RE: Wierd application, hypothetical question. > > > > > > > > Eric, > > Everything that you stated about solenoids is indeed > > accurate, now I don't > > know that much about voice coil actuators at all BUT you are > > 100% correct a > > stepper motor really is the way to go in this case. Do we > > have an idea of > > response time required? Solenoid's have a very rapid response > > time (on the > > order of 15 microseconds or less in most cases). > >You can get solenoids with time constants in the millisecond range, but >that's usually specified with no load attached. You'd have to add in the >inertia of the rest of the system, and of course subtract the load from the >solenoid force. It's pretty easy to see that you can shoot your response >time in the foot once the solenoid is actually in a system (which is just >fine if you're shooting for a PWM drive freq.). > > > Stepper > > motor is probably a > > bit slower then this but should fit this app OK > > Stepper motor is definately they way to go with this > > application, there are > > already plenty of circuits designed to control these suckers > > you just need > > to do a search. One of the things to look is CNC retrofits > > for milling > > machines. > >Yea, there's a few circuits, parts, and control algorithms out there, if >you >know where to look. It's not going to be a simple task by any means, but >the original poster hinted at some fabrication skills that may come in >handy >on this project. > >Eric Bryant >mailto:bryante at ghsp.com >http://www.novagate.com/~bryante >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From CEIJR at aol.com Thu Dec 7 15:07:06 2000 From: CEIJR at aol.com (CEIJR at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:07:06 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: --part1_99.d97a8f7.2761016a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm just a lurker, but I can't help asking how the electronic or mechanical matching of fuel pressure to boost on a diesel will keep it from running away. Is this particualr engine air throttled? --part1_99.d97a8f7.2761016a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm just a lurker, but I can't help asking how the electronic or mechanical
matching of fuel pressure to boost on a diesel will keep it from running
away. Is this particualr engine air throttled? --part1_99.d97a8f7.2761016a_boundary-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From MarkRShirley at eaton.com Thu Dec 7 15:31:38 2000 From: MarkRShirley at eaton.com (Shirley, Mark R) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:31:38 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C06062.BDBD3890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" No, I am not matching fuel pressure to boost pressure, but instead turning up the fuel screw referenced to boost. That means, no boost, it acts like a normally fueled engine. Get into boost, you have an abundance of air that can be burned, so you must add fuel for more power. It will only run away if you give it more fuel than it can handle. That can be tailored by spring resistance to the boost aneroid. It sounds complicated, but it's really very simple. Also, diesels will only run away if they are being overfueled while there's no load. -----Original Message----- From: CEIJR at aol.com [mailto:CEIJR at aol.com] Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 10:06 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. I'm just a lurker, but I can't help asking how the electronic or mechanical matching of fuel pressure to boost on a diesel will keep it from running away. Is this particualr engine air throttled? ------_=_NextPart_001_01C06062.BDBD3890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

No, I am not matching fuel pressure to boost pressure, but instead turning up the fuel screw referenced

to boost. That means, no boost, it acts like a normally fueled engine. Get into boost, you have an abundance

of air that can be burned, so you must add fuel for more power. It will only run away if you give it more fuel

than it can handle. That can be tailored by spring resistance to the boost aneroid. It sounds complicated, but

it's really very simple. Also, diesels will only run away if they are being overfueled while there's no load.

-----Original Message-----
From: CEIJR at aol.com [mailto:CEIJR at aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 10:06 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question.

I'm just a lurker, but I can't help asking how the electronic or mechanical
matching of fuel pressure to boost on a diesel will keep it from running
away. Is this particualr engine air throttled?

------_=_NextPart_001_01C06062.BDBD3890-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From pford at qnx.com Thu Dec 7 16:22:15 2000 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:22:15 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: It wont, run away is a different beast, what this thread is about is the enrichment to compensate for added boost. the worst kind of runaway is when the diesel starts burning its own lube oil, there is NO control and engine speeds get dangerous re quick. Previously, you (CEIJR at aol.com) wrote: { I'm just a lurker, but I can't help asking how the electronic or mechanical { matching of fuel pressure to boost on a diesel will keep it from running { away. Is this particualr engine air throttled? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From pford at qnx.com Thu Dec 7 16:27:14 2000 From: pford at qnx.com (Pat Ford) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:27:14 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: There are other run away situations, bad pcv valves and excessive blowby spring to mind, or the one that scared me a ingersol rand 750 CFM air compressor powered by a BIG 6cyl. 2 stroke diesel, the supercharger had a bad oil seal only the quick thinking of one of the operator saved the engine. He discharged a fire extinguisher onto the intake! Previously, you (Shirley, Mark R) wrote: { No, I am not matching fuel pressure to boost pressure, but instead turning { up the fuel screw referenced { to boost. That means, no boost, it acts like a normally fueled engine. Get { into boost, you have an abundance { of air that can be burned, so you must add fuel for more power. It will { only run away if you give it more fuel { than it can handle. That can be tailored by spring resistance to the boost { aneroid. It sounds complicated, but { it's really very simple. Also, diesels will only run away if they are being { overfueled while there's no load. { { -----Original Message----- { From: CEIJR at aol.com [mailto:CEIJR at aol.com] { Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 10:06 AM { To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org { Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. { { { I'm just a lurker, but I can't help asking how the electronic or mechanical { matching of fuel pressure to boost on a diesel will keep it from running { away. Is this particualr engine air throttled? { ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From MarkRShirley at eaton.com Thu Dec 7 16:54:13 2000 From: MarkRShirley at eaton.com (Shirley, Mark R) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:54:13 -0800 Subject: Wierd application, hypothetical question. Message-ID: About all you can do at that point is wave a rag in front of the intake, and hope it chokes it. Although I have heard of a person doing that during a runaway, and the exhaust puked red cloth dust a second or two later. We should probably take this discussion off-line since it's such a deviation from the list topic... -----Original Message----- From: Pat Ford [mailto:pford at qnx.com] Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 11:23 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: Wierd application, hypothetical question. It wont, run away is a different beast, what this thread is about is the enrichment to compensate for added boost. the worst kind of runaway is when the diesel starts burning its own lube oil, there is NO control and engine speeds get dangerous re quick. Previously, you (CEIJR at aol.com) wrote: { I'm just a lurker, but I can't help asking how the electronic or mechanical { matching of fuel pressure to boost on a diesel will keep it from running { away. Is this particualr engine air throttled? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From wsherwin at home.com Fri Dec 8 04:29:29 2000 From: wsherwin at home.com (Walter Sherwin) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:29:29 -0800 Subject: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? Message-ID: The BARO sensor function should still be setup to comprehend the ambient conditions an the entrance of the compressor. More so for a positive displacement compressor (roots or screw) than a centrifugal or turbo, but, still important in terms of any upstream inlet restrictions..... Walt. > > Brings up an interesting question. For a Turbo'd engine using a MAP sensor > obviously the need for the Barometer goes away if the engine is always under > a slight amount of boost. Perhaps the barometer sensor needs to be > connected to the front of the throttle plate. Perhaps that's why SAAB went > to a hot wire mass air flow sensor instead. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From wmcdonal at optushome.com.au Fri Dec 8 04:49:56 2000 From: wmcdonal at optushome.com.au (Wayne Macdonald) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:49:56 -0800 Subject: Subject: Suzuki cycle ECUs? Message-ID: > I am doing a lot of work with motorcycle ECU's and would be interested in any info. What are you planning to do once you have it out ? Wayne ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From johnd at autoartisans.com Fri Dec 8 05:17:55 2000 From: johnd at autoartisans.com (John Dammeyer) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:17:55 -0800 Subject: Ambient Pressure on compressor. Message-ID: Hi Walt, Why? I can see the need for the ambient pressure to use in conjunction with the MAP sensor to determine, in effect, the pressure differential which creates the force to move the air into the cylinders. Depending on the RPM of the blower, the waste gate and the boost created, the ambient pressure means almost nothing doesn't it? How would you use it in a formula to calculate fuel mixture? John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Sherwin" To: Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 7:53 PM Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter? > The BARO sensor function should still be setup to comprehend the ambient > conditions an the entrance of the compressor. More so for a positive > displacement compressor (roots or screw) than a centrifugal or turbo, but, > still important in terms of any upstream inlet restrictions..... > > Walt. > > > > > > Brings up an interesting question. For a Turbo'd engine using a MAP > sensor > > obviously the need for the Barometer goes away if the engine is always > under > > a slight amount of boost. Perhaps the barometer sensor needs to be > > connected to the front of the throttle plate. Perhaps that's why SAAB > went > > to a hot wire mass air flow sensor instead. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From timo.hyttinen at kpmg.fi Fri Dec 8 11:35:23 2000 From: timo.hyttinen at kpmg.fi (Hyttinen, Timo) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 03:35:23 -0800 Subject: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning Message-ID: Hi! Yes, the cool air is one of the vital things in this turbobusiness. A good intercooler can help a quite a bit when higher boost levels are desired. In Saab 9000 the original IC is more efficient than the one in 900 turbos. Therefore, lots a people use the IC from 9000 in 900 turbos. But In the final stage, like you mentioned, IC should be water-based in order to get the max out of the project. Regards Timo Hyttinen -----Original Message----- From: John Dammeyer [mailto:johnd at autoartisans.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:07 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning Hi, I'd add one thing for tuning a SAAB Turbo for more performance. My Cousin in the UK had is 900 upgraded to use a water cooled intercooler. Had a separate water pump and radiator and apparently was worth about 25 extra ponies. Might be the best place for that extra bit before mucking with the internals. John Dammeyer ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org From hamidgatchkaran at hotmail.com Fri Dec 8 11:56:23 2000 From: hamidgatchkaran at hotmail.com (hamid gatch-karan) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 03:56:23 -0800 Subject: Honda fuel injector flow rate Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C06019.270287A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C06019.2B227020" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C06019.2B227020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What is the flow rate of Honda fuel injector labeled "Keihin"? Where I can find the lowest price for Bosch fuel injector? Could some body help me to find the Manuel for the general Gm or = motorolla map sensor in the rectangle shape? ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C06019.2B227020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What is the flow rate of Honda fuel injector labeled = "Keihin"?

Where I can find the lowest price for Bosch fuel injector?

Could some body help me to find the Manuel for the general Gm or = motorolla=20 map sensor in the rectangle shape?