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DIY_EFI Digest        Tuesday, December 5 2000        Volume 05 : Num=
ber 408



In this issue:

=09RE: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning
=09Re: Throttle butterfly source?
=09Re: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?)
=09Re: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?)
=09RE: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?
=09Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?
=09Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?
=09Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?
=09Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?
=09Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the=20
DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists.

---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:19:31 +0200=20
=46rom: "Hyttinen, Timo" <timo.hyttinen at kpmg.fi>
Subject: RE: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning

Ok, thank`s for the information, I`ll check out the webpages!

Timo Hyttinen

- -----Original Message-----
=46rom: :) :( [mailto:perkelpuk at hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 1:36 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: Saab 9000 LH-jetronic turbo tuning


Hello.

I have a saab 99 with a 16v turbo engine (84 engine). If you now swed=
ish you

can take a look at www.saabuel.com.

The easy way to tune your car would be to adjust the apc-box. Search =
on apc=20
and saab on the net. After a coouple of days later you may want some =
more=20
hp. Buy a chip and a adjustable fuel pressure regulator, or buy or bu=
ild a=20
add on fuel controller and weld on some more injectors. (I am current=
ly=20
building a add on fuel injection system and plan to have about 1,5 ba=
rs of=20
boost. To boost this much safely you need quite a bit of fuel i do no=
t think

it is possible with your standard injectors regardless of the fuel pr=
essure,

so you either have to change the injectors or have some more of them.=
 )=20
After this you may want another turbo. On my saab i have a small mits=
ubichi=20
turbo ( TD04HL-13T ) it gives a much better response then the origina=
l=20
garret t3. It is also a good idea to have a bigger down pipe. The gea=
rboxes=20
on the saabs are not the sturdiest on the market to say the least so =
take it

easy.


//klas


>From: "Hyttinen, Timo" <timo.hyttinen at kpmg.fi>
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>To: "Diy_Efi (E-mail)" <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Subject: Saab 9000  LH-jetronic turbo tuning
>Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:59:07 +0200
>
>
>
>Hello everybody!
>
>I`m new on the list and got just a hold of a Saab 9000 16v turbo -89=
 with=20
>no
>cat. I`m about to do some performance modifications on it in a near =
future.
>I`m interested in finding out how to modifiy the existing efi and ho=
w to
>reprogram the ecu. The car is equipped with the direct ignition syst=
em. I
>don`t want to settle for those performance chips that are readily av=
ailable
>for non-modified turbos.
>
>Any hints or ideas how to approach the problem are welcome!
>
>Best regards
>
>
>Timo Hyttinen
>--------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
- -
>To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the=
=20
>quotes)
>in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-ef=
i.org
>

_____________________________________________________________________=
_______
_________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.=
msn.com

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:38:15 -0700 (MST)
=46rom: Daniel Houlton <houlster at inficad.com>
Subject: Re: Throttle butterfly source?

First, thanks all for the multiple sources.  I'm gonna check=20
locally for Weber or SU replacement plates.  If they don't
have them, Holley and Kinsler do so I'll go that route.



Dan Zorde wrote:
>=20
> Look at the Magnuson supercharger bypass valves, they look like min=
iature
> throttle bodies and come in size 1.5"
>=20
> Dan  dzorde at erggroup.com


Uh, well, that's actually the reason I'm looking for one.
Magnuson just sells the complete bypass though ($75).  I
just want the plate and vacuum actuator.

thanks

- --Dan
houlster at inficad.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------
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.org

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 09:03:50 -0800
=46rom: "Andrew R. Ghali" <andrewg at 16paws.com>
Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?)

On Mon, 04 Dec 2000 12:03:43 -0000, "Klas" <perkelpuk at hotmail.com> wr=
ote:
>...
>A couple of more things:Is it a lot of oscillating going on in the p=
ressure=20
>sensor signal? Plan to sample once per revolution and i do not want =
a lot of=20
>difference between the different revs. How many loadsites do you=
=B4need to=20
>regulate the fuel decently (was thinking of 8 rpm and 8 map total of=
 64=20
>sites), of course many are better but what can be sufficient, as I d=
ont want=20
>the mapping to take all day.

I would guess that you're seeing the individual intake cycles that ar=
e not
overlapping.  You'll probably need to either a) analog low-pass filte=
r the
signal, b) digital low-pass filter the signal or c) select an exact t=
ime
relative to the crank each revolution to sample (probably not the bes=
t
solution).  Option (b) would be the most optimal because it's easy to=
 "fix"
and if you're really good, you can base the filter on the RPM and the=
 engine
characteristics to get much faster response.

Hope this helps-

Andrew
- -------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------
To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the =
quotes)
in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi=
.org

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:04:09 -0000
=46rom: ":) :(" <perkelpuk at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?)

Hmmm..

I see your piont Andrew, newer gave that a thought.. I think I will d=
o what=20
I usally do, hook it up and see if it works.

/klas


>From: "Andrew R. Ghali" <andrewg at 16paws.com>
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>CC: "Klas" <perkelpuk at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor (Was: Injecor impedance?)
>Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 09:03:50 -0800
>
>On Mon, 04 Dec 2000 12:03:43 -0000, "Klas" <perkelpuk at hotmail.com> w=
rote:
> >...
> >A couple of more things:Is it a lot of oscillating going on in the=
=20
>pressure
> >sensor signal? Plan to sample once per revolution and i do not wan=
t a lot=20
>of
> >difference between the different revs. How many loadsites do you=
=B4need to
> >regulate the fuel decently (was thinking of 8 rpm and 8 map total =
of 64
> >sites), of course many are better but what can be sufficient, as I=
 dont=20
>want
> >the mapping to take all day.
>
>I would guess that you're seeing the individual intake cycles that a=
re not
>overlapping.  You'll probably need to either a) analog low-pass filt=
er the
>signal, b) digital low-pass filter the signal or c) select an exact =
time
>relative to the crank each revolution to sample (probably not the be=
st
>solution).  Option (b) would be the most optimal because it's easy t=
o "fix"
>and if you're really good, you can base the filter on the RPM and th=
e=20
>engine
>characteristics to get much faster response.
>
>Hope this helps-
>
>Andrew
>--------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
>To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the=
=20
>quotes)
>in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-ef=
i.org
>

_____________________________________________________________________=
________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.=
msn.com

- -------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:28:23 -0700
=46rom: "Diehl, Jeffrey" <jdiehl at sandia.gov>
Subject: RE: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?

Thanx for your reply.  I have a few more questions, though. <grin>

You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric  press=
ure,
air temp, and RPM.  The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of this.=
 =20

I can see how one might argue that the difference between the engine =
vac and
the barametric pressure is what the AFM is measuring, so if this is c=
orrect,
I can see why I'd need the two pressure sensors.

I can see where it would be NICE to know air temp, but my ECU doesn't=
 seem
to use it.  In lue of that, couldn't I just rely on the Ox sensor to =
adjust
fuel correctly?

Would simply tying a potentiometer (sp?) to the throttle linkage be e=
nough
to replace the AFM?

Otherwise, would I need a circuit much more complex than a MAF and an=
 OPamp?

Thanx again,
Mike Diehl.

- -----Original Message-----
=46rom: Bruce Plecan
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Sent: 11/11/00 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?


IMO

one map sensor for barometric presure
one for engine vac
intake air temp
RPM
Should be enough for a substitute AFM
Or use a late GM MAF and just do a freg., to what ever output your AF=
M
uses
Bruce




> Hi all,
>
>   I'm in the process of putting an engine in my car, an '87 MR-2.
I've
looked at the AFM, a flapper door type,
>   and decided that it is very restrictive.  I'm contemplating build=
ing
a
circuit that looks like an AFM to the
>   computer.  I will link this circuit to the throttle linkage.  I k=
now
that the computer needs this information, but
>   isn't it using it to measure how much load is on the engine, ie.
More
load =3D more vacuume =3D more open AFM
>   door?  Instead of the computer determining load, the driver will
determine it by how much he presses the
>   petal.  Think of it as a variable substitution into the fuel
equation.
>
>   If that wont work, how about this.  Then I get a MAP sensor and m=
ake
an
op-amp circuit which maps the
>   outputs appropriately.  A MAP is a lot less restrictive than an A=
FM.
>
>   Since the car isn't running yet, I've had a lot of time  (too muc=
h?)
to
think about things like this.  I've also had
>   the oportunity to learn about just about ever major system in it.
The
car is a project car, so when it is running,
>   I can do whatever modifications I care to do.  That is, it's not =
my
daily driver.
>
>   Look forward to your comments.
>
>   Mike Diehl
>
> Mike Diehl
> 87NA 7afe, dual exhaust & custom headers
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com
>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
- --
- --
> To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without th=
e
quotes)
> in the body of a message (not the subject) to
majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org
>
>

- -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
- ----
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majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org


- -------------------------------------------------------------------=
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 18:09:12 -0500
=46rom: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?

> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric  pre=
ssure,
> air temp, and RPM.  The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of thi=
s.

Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass

> I can see how one might argue that the difference between the engin=
e vac
and
> the barametric pressure is what the AFM is measuring, so if this is
correct,
> I can see why I'd need the two pressure sensors.

Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just a MA=
P to do
it.
Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem to be doing
because of Baro.

> I can see where it would be NICE to know air temp, but my ECU doesn=
't seem
> to use it.  In lue of that, couldn't I just rely on the Ox sensor t=
o
adjust
> fuel correctly?

If all you want is to run 14.7:1, or go for a wide band.

> Would simply tying a potentiometer (sp?) to the throttle linkage be=
 enough
> to replace the AFM?

If all you want is a Alpha-N system..
Meaning figure AFR on throttle opening, and rpm.
Yes you can do that, and if that is all you use it will be border lin=
e to
even be able to drive some days.
there is a too min system that is too min
Bruce

>
> Otherwise, would I need a circuit much more complex than a MAF and =
an
OPamp?
>
> Thanx again,
> Mike Diehl.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Plecan
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Sent: 11/11/00 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?
>
>
> IMO
>
> one map sensor for barometric presure
> one for engine vac
> intake air temp
> RPM
> Should be enough for a substitute AFM
> Or use a late GM MAF and just do a freg., to what ever output your =
AFM
> uses
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> >   I'm in the process of putting an engine in my car, an '87 MR-2.
> I've
> looked at the AFM, a flapper door type,
> >   and decided that it is very restrictive.  I'm contemplating bui=
lding
> a
> circuit that looks like an AFM to the
> >   computer.  I will link this circuit to the throttle linkage.  I=
 know
> that the computer needs this information, but
> >   isn't it using it to measure how much load is on the engine, ie=
.
> More
> load =3D more vacuume =3D more open AFM
> >   door?  Instead of the computer determining load, the driver wil=
l
> determine it by how much he presses the
> >   petal.  Think of it as a variable substitution into the fuel
> equation.
> >
> >   If that wont work, how about this.  Then I get a MAP sensor and=
 make
> an
> op-amp circuit which maps the
> >   outputs appropriately.  A MAP is a lot less restrictive than an=
 AFM.
> >
> >   Since the car isn't running yet, I've had a lot of time  (too m=
uch?)
> to
> think about things like this.  I've also had
> >   the oportunity to learn about just about ever major system in i=
t.
> The
> car is a project car, so when it is running,
> >   I can do whatever modifications I care to do.  That is, it's no=
t my
> daily driver.
> >
> >   Look forward to your comments.
> >
> >   Mike Diehl
> >
> > Mike Diehl
> > 87NA 7afe, dual exhaust & custom headers
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
> --
> --
> > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without =
the
> quotes)
> > in the body of a message (not the subject) to
> majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org
> >
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
> ----
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e
> quotes)
> in the body of a message (not the subject) to
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>
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:10:47 -0800 (PST)
=46rom: James Montebello <jamesm at lapuwali.com>
Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?

On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Bruce Plecan wrote:

>=20
>> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric  pr=
essure,
>> air temp, and RPM.  The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of th=
is.
>=20
> Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass

Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters (as t=
he
original poster was asking about) do have an air temperature sensor b=
uilt
into them, and provide it along with the flapper position.  The later
"hot-wire" type of airflow meters are themselves temperature sensitiv=
e,
so ambient temperature is accounted for automatically.

To the first poster, if you know airflow correctly, you don't need to
know engine speed.  Bosch K-Jet doesn't have an engine speed input.
It does usually have some input related to the throttle position
(depending on the type, this is either a MAP reference, or a TPS).


> Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just a =
MAP to=20
> do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem to=
 be=20
> doing because of Baro.

I would think that MAP would be directly related to barometric pressu=
re,
since lower barometric would automatically mean lower MAP for otherwi=
se
identical conditions.  Since you want less fuel at altitude, and you'=
d
get a lower MAP value at altitude, a fuel curve matched to MAP, with
throttle compensation for acceleration, would be adequate.


It's funny how many people are suddenly showing up wanting to replace
airflow meters with MAP output.  I'd thought about doing exactly the
same thing to by L-Jet equipped Alfa. =20

james montebello

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:30:17 -0500
=46rom: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?

> >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric
pressure,
> >> air temp, and RPM.  The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of =
this.
> > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass

> Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters (as=
 the
> original poster was asking about) do have an air temperature sensor=
 built
> into them, and provide it along with the flapper position.  The lat=
er
> "hot-wire" type of airflow meters are themselves temperature sensit=
ive,
> so ambient temperature is accounted for automatically,

It still is calculating MASS, which was the point.
For proper tuning you need an air temp timing correction, IMO..

> To the first poster, if you know airflow correctly, you don't need =
to
> know engine speed.  Bosch K-Jet doesn't have an engine speed input.
> It does usually have some input related to the throttle position
> (depending on the type, this is either a MAP reference, or a TPS).

He was talkingabout removing it, and then to approximate the air bein=
g
consumed you need rpm, if designing a system other then AFM, or MAF

> > Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just =
a MAP
to
> > do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem =
to be
> > doing because of Baro.
> I would think that MAP would be directly related to barometric pres=
sure,
> since lower barometric would automatically mean lower MAP for other=
wise
> identical conditions.  Since you want less fuel at altitude, and yo=
u'd
> get a lower MAP value at altitude, a fuel curve matched to MAP, wit=
h
> throttle compensation for acceleration, would be adequate.

Try doing it for a while and check back with me.
I would be much easier to develope a single table of 10 items then ha=
ving to
do one of 100+.
To get the *proper* resolution IMP.

> It's funny how many people are suddenly showing up wanting to repla=
ce
> airflow meters with MAP output.  I'd thought about doing exactly th=
e
> same thing to by L-Jet equipped Alfa.

By no means new.
Bruce
>
> james montebello

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:58:16 +0800 (WST)
=46rom: Bernd Felsche <bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?

Bruce Plecan tapped away at the keyboard with:
> > >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for
> > >> barometric  pressure, air temp, and RPM.  The stock AirFlow
> > >> Meter doesn't have any of this.
> > > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass

> > Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters
> > (as the original poster was asking about) do have an air
> > temperature sensor built into them, and provide it along with
> > the flapper position.  The later "hot-wire" type of airflow
> > meters are themselves temperature sensitive, so ambient
> > temperature is accounted for automatically,

> It still is calculating MASS, which was the point.  For proper
> tuning you need an air temp timing correction, IMO..

And mixture adjustment as fuel vapourization varies with inlet
temperature.

The flap-type meter is not a mass meter; it's a air momentum meter.
(i.e. mass * velocity) Air mass is then usually calculated by the
ECU with the aid of an on-board barometric pressure transducer.
That's the reason why many Bosch ECU boxes have an air vent.

- --=20
 /"\  Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
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 / \      and postings          | to help me spread!            |
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 02:07:18 +0100
=46rom: "P.J.Berg" <BergRace at c2i.net>
Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?

Montebello, eh! Thats the name of a place close to me here in Oslo No=
rway.
:o)

J.



P.J.Berg
BergRace at Aircooled.net





- ----- Original Message -----
=46rom: "James Montebello" <jamesm at lapuwali.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: Do I need an Air Flow Meter?


> On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Bruce Plecan wrote:
>
> >
> >> You mention that I would probably need a sensor for barometric
pressure,
> >> air temp, and RPM.  The stock AirFlow Meter doesn't have any of =
this.
> >
> > Doesn't have to, it's figuring mass
>
> Just picking a nit, but the Bosch "flapper-type" airflow meters (as=
 the
> original poster was asking about) do have an air temperature sensor=
 built
> into them, and provide it along with the flapper position.  The lat=
er
> "hot-wire" type of airflow meters are themselves temperature sensit=
ive,
> so ambient temperature is accounted for automatically.
>
> To the first poster, if you know airflow correctly, you don't need =
to
> know engine speed.  Bosch K-Jet doesn't have an engine speed input.
> It does usually have some input related to the throttle position
> (depending on the type, this is either a MAP reference, or a TPS).
>
>
> > Just too hard in my opion to get enough resolution in using just =
a MAP
to
> > do it. Hard to tell at times if your actually doing what ya seem =
to be
> > doing because of Baro.
>
> I would think that MAP would be directly related to barometric pres=
sure,
> since lower barometric would automatically mean lower MAP for other=
wise
> identical conditions.  Since you want less fuel at altitude, and yo=
u'd
> get a lower MAP value at altitude, a fuel curve matched to MAP, wit=
h
> throttle compensation for acceleration, would be adequate.
>
>
> It's funny how many people are suddenly showing up wanting to repla=
ce
> airflow meters with MAP output.  I'd thought about doing exactly th=
e
> same thing to by L-Jet equipped Alfa.
>
> james montebello
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
- --
> To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without th=
e
quotes)
> in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-e=
fi.org
>


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