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Resent-Date: 28 Jan 2000 21:49:58 EDT
From: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
To: shanen at grolen.com
Date: 28 Jan 2000 08:45:00 EDT
Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #41
DIY_EFI Digest Friday, January 28 2000 Volume 05 : Number 041
In this issue:
Correcting subject when replying
Re: toyota o2
Re: basic tuning
Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors
RE: J.C. Whitney AFR meter
Re: J.C. Whitney AFR meter
Re: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors
Re: J.C. Whitney AFR meter
Tech 1 Questions
RE: J.C. Whitney AFR meter
Re: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors
727+LT1Conectr.jpg
RE: alky/water inj
Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #40
See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the
DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists.
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:00:16 +0000
From: Ade + Lamb Chop <alaw at mrc.soton.ac.uk>
Subject: Correcting subject when replying
Hi All,
Just a quick request. Those of you who are still using the Digest could you
make sure you change the subject line to from eg,
Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #39
To the subject you are actually replying to please.
Thanx,
Ade
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:39:44 -0800
From: garwillis at msn.com (Garfield Willis)
Subject: Re: toyota o2
On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:51:17 -0500 Scott_Hay at toyota.com
>The Toyota sensor can in fact measure a broad range of a/f ratios but so far,
>there is little information we have in the US as to how it actually works.
Um guys, I've had a look at the pictures of this GReedy gizmo now, Bruce
pointed me to:
www.suprastore.com/supra/gredairfuelK.html
but have a look Scott at that sensor, and see if it's the one you've
been testing. I have a Toyota WB O2 sensor (cost me nearly $300 just for
the sensor! argh), and it's definitely not the same animal as this one.
Look carefully at the body shape and the probe tip openings. Judging
from the description, I'd have to guess this is actually a conventional
4-wire heated sensor they've attempted to pull a calibration curve for,
on the rich side. If so, it's AFR accuracy is gonna be pretty sloppy.
>The sensor does have 4 wires, B+ for heater, ground for heater - controlled by
>ecm (pwm), afr+ which supplies +3.3v from the ecm to one side of the sensor, and
>afr- which the ecm supplies +3.0v to the other side of the sensor.
>
>We do see a variable voltage when using a scanner tool but when you measure the
>sensor itself, voltage is not moving with major shifts in afr???? The general
>thought is that it monitors the amperage and the direction of current flow to
>determine the afr. The scan tool voltage is a calculated # to give diagnostic
>functions.
Yup, you're seeing there the behavior of all current-pump style sensors;
you won't see much variation in Vs because there's a feedback loop
in the interface that's intentionally attempting to hold Vs at a fixed
value, while the current thru the pump is varied. It's the oxygen pump
current that reflects the AFR, just as you surmise. In this case, it's
the same two terminals +-afr, so the voltage across them is the Vs while
the current thru them is the pump current.
You've gotta be right about the scanner readout as well; that's AFTER
the interface's pump current is read by the ECU and converted to AFR.
>Very good and incredibly accurate sensor which operates in a linear fashion to
>afr.
>
>This will probably add more questions than it answers but it is a start.
If this is the sensor GReddy is using, at $285 for the complete system,
it would indeed be a miracle deal. Doubtful, tho; check out the sensor.
If someone can get a look at one of these, the Toyota part number should
be right on the O2 sensor's metal outer jacket. Betcha a donut it's a
conventional 4-wire heated sensor. :)
Gar
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:54:05 -0800
From: "Greg Moore" <gmoore at island.net>
Subject: Re: basic tuning
> At the FTP site
> Tuning.doc
> Grumpy
If anyone else is looking for the file it's TuneTip1.doc It's a good
start. Thanks Grumpy.
Cheers, Greg
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:32:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Buccellato <clayb at sonic.net>
Subject: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors
It's finally time to buy the injectors. Horsepower, boost, and RPM
requirements (plus a bit of overhead) dictate 105 lbs/hr units. I believe
these will be low impedance units. Does this correlate to peak and hold,
or saturated style injectors?
I'm using an electromotive driver, so low impedance isn't a problem. What
I'm primarily concerned with is idle quality with the large injectors.
I've heard that saturated style have a longer minimum pulse width,
relative to peak and hold style. Anyone have info on this?
Also, what is the best angle to weld the injector bosses into the manifold
at? Within the mechanical limitations of a Chevy big block, should I be
aiming as close to the back of the valve as possible?
Are there any injector mfg's that do a better job than others at
atomisation? I've located 160 lb/hr units, but would prefer to get closer
to my actual requirements, so as not to compromise idle too badly.
- - Clay
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:59:25 -0800
From: "Randall" <ryoung at navcomtech.com>
Subject: RE: J.C. Whitney AFR meter
Rex Weatherford wrote :
>
> I was looking at the schematic for Dave's meter and had a few
> questions.
>
> What is the LM3914?
It's an integrated circuit made by National Semiconductor, designed to
create a bar graph display with a minimum of external components.
National's data sheet is at http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3914.html . The
part should be available from most full-line electronics supply houses
(which leaves out Radio Shaft).
>
> It says I can buy a meter like this from JC whitney for $20? Is that
> true?
Not quite. Current price is $36. See
http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=4571 .
>
> How are these used... I know that my ECM looks for values
> between .100v
> and 1.1v. And that my EGO sensor has to warm up before this means
> anything. Correct?
Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume the
Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically
meaningless above about 0.9v.
Randall
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:16:28 -0500
From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
Subject: Re: J.C. Whitney AFR meter
May I suggest you check the achives about O2 sensor, and EGOR so at least
you have a clue about what your doing here.
While you might consider it's output over .9 as useless, I say below that
is about as meaningful, in general the <$100 sensors are designed to
function as a switch with the on/off point at 14.7:1
Grumpy
| Rex Weatherford wrote :
| > I was looking at the schematic for Dave's meter and had a few
| > questions.
> What is the LM3914?
It's an integrated circuit made by National Semiconductor, designed to
| create a bar graph display with a minimum of external components.
| National's data sheet is at http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3914.html .
The
| part should be available from most full-line electronics supply houses
| (which leaves out Radio Shaft).
| > It says I can buy a meter like this from JC whitney for $20? Is that
| > true?
| Not quite. Current price is $36. See
| http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=4571 .
| > How are these used... I know that my ECM looks for values
| > between .100v
| > and 1.1v. And that my EGO sensor has to warm up before this means
| > anything. Correct?
| Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume
the
| Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically
| meaningless above about 0.9v.
| Randall
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:23:25 -0500
From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors
| It's finally time to buy the injectors. Horsepower, boost, and RPM
| requirements (plus a bit of overhead) dictate 105 lbs/hr units. I believe
| these will be low impedance units. Does this correlate to peak and hold,
| or saturated style injectors?
You are building a what?. 105 injectors?.
To get anywhere near an idle would take P+Hs
How big of motor is this?.
| I'm using an electromotive driver, so low impedance isn't a problem. What
| I'm primarily concerned with is idle quality with the large injectors.
| I've heard that saturated style have a longer minimum pulse width,
| relative to peak and hold style. Anyone have info on this?
Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in the
archives
| Also, what is the best angle to weld the injector bosses into the manifold
| at? Within the mechanical limitations of a Chevy big block, should I be
| aiming as close to the back of the valve as possible?
|
| Are there any injector mfg's that do a better job than others at
| atomisation?
Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to brand,
and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice if
some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs pressure.
I've located 160 lb/hr units, but would prefer to get closer
| to my actual requirements, so as not to compromise idle too badly.
105-160?. BZZZZZTTTT, assuming you initial calilation is right the other is
way off.
Grumpy
|
| - Clay
|
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:26:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Orin <orin>
Subject: Re: J.C. Whitney AFR meter
> Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume the
> Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically
> meaningless above about 0.9v.
LM3914 doesn't need to do 0 to 1.2V, it's easy enough to
set scale and limits using a couple of resistors per LM3914.
I use two LM3914s and set the first to do 0 to 0.5 V and the
second 0.5 to 1V, using just one of the 1.2V references.
Orin.
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:49:40 +1100
From: Richard Wakeling <kojab at ar.com.au>
Subject: Tech 1 Questions
Hi all,
I am looking closer at the old "Tech 1" scan tool and have a few
questions.
1) When "Tech 1" is connected to a VR commodore V8 is the cable that is
used between "Tech 1" and ALDL the same cable (part number TA01299) that
is used on the VN commodore but with an adaptor to suit the OBDII syle
plug on the VR or do they use a different cable?
2) If a different cable is used for the VR commodore can someone give
me the connections between the 15 pin D connector on the "Tech 1" and
the 16 pin OBDII style plug.
3) Has anybody tried to reconstruct the circuit of the "Tech 1" or
knows which pin of the 15 D pin plug uses the 8192 Data?
4) Does the "Tech 1" scan tool have various models depending on which
country they are used in or is it just the Moduals for each vehicle that
are different?
The model of the "Tech 1" I am looking at here in Australia is 94-012
Thanks in advance
Cheers Richard.
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:19:25 -0700
From: bearbvd at cmn.net (Greg Hermann)
Subject: RE: J.C. Whitney AFR meter
>
>Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume the
>Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically
>meaningless above about 0.9v.
>
It is also basically meaningless if you are more than about 0.4 A/F ratio
away from stoich!
Greg
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:27:26 -0700
From: bearbvd at cmn.net (Greg Hermann)
Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors
>It's finally time to buy the injectors. Horsepower, boost, and RPM
>requirements (plus a bit of overhead) dictate 105 lbs/hr units. I believe
>these will be low impedance units. Does this correlate to peak and hold,
>or saturated style injectors?
>
>I'm using an electromotive driver, so low impedance isn't a problem. What
>I'm primarily concerned with is idle quality with the large injectors.
>I've heard that saturated style have a longer minimum pulse width,
>relative to peak and hold style. Anyone have info on this?
>
>Also, what is the best angle to weld the injector bosses into the manifold
>at? Within the mechanical limitations of a Chevy big block, should I be
>aiming as close to the back of the valve as possible?
>
>Are there
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