(Randell)RE: Improper DIY_EFI behaviour

[Greg Hermann]

Based on been there, done that, in concdrt with some VERY capable people,
the electronics ARE simple, and the hard cost of the bits involved to build
an EGOR is well under $50 .

Getting the dirty details of the various sensors is not simple, quickly
done, or inexpensive.

Most of the trick in the electronics lies in controlling the heater circuit
in a manner that avoids damage to the sensor.

The rest of the time consuming and expensive part of the development lies
in calibrating what you have once the electronics are designed and built. A
self calibrating sensor is INDEED a big achievement--and will be
advantageous to all of us, both in convenience and in terms of $$$$ saved.

The market for WBO2 sensors has been a "black magic" affair for a long
time, mostly due to the fact that Horiba has more lawyers than capable
engineers on its payroll, and their choice was to try to set up a market
"skimming" situation. Federal Mogul/Fel Pro/ Speed Pro has not helped
things with their "you must come back to us each and every time you cook a
sensor" (profiteering and skimming again) approach. Not to mention the fact
that their calibration is ADMITTEDLY (by one of the Speed Pro principals)
suspect under certain conditions!

There was a group of highly qualified individuals from this list who
privately set out to develop an EGOR control box a while back. That group
kind of deferred to the fact that Gar was going to be coming to market with
one for a fair and reasonable price. That group was certainly far enough
into the project to have a full understanding of what would be involved in
getting a viable, accurate sensor control designed and operable--and
believe me--it would have been a LOT of time consuming work!

I believe that Gar tried to take it on on his own and learned exactly what
the group from the list did about "The devil's in the details!" He is!!

I am familiar with the details of the resumes of those who lworked in the
subject group, and when I say that all members were and ARE highly
qualified, I know of what I speak. I am not going to comment on Paul's
qualifications--or lack thereof--beyond saying that qualified professionals
do not tend to use profanity in a public forum, so judge for yourselves!

And with that--while neither my eyes, ears or mouth are particularly
virgin, I must request that John, Orin or Steve immediately remove Paul
from the list! The way that he mouthed of in his recent post is simply
unacceptable in this forum! I think he needs to go develop his version of
EGOR in the usenet environment, his approach is simply not welcome with me,
nor do I believe that it is welcome here!

Greg
>>
>> Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:34:31 -0700
>> From: Randall Young <randallyoung at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: RE: Improper DIY_EFI behaviour
>>
>> John Dammeyer wrote:
>> > So the posting from
>> > Garfield Willis below bothers me.  It would be equivalent to NGK
>posting
>> > a comment that Paul's curves and information are wrong ...
>>
>> But, what if Gar is right ???
>
>He may well be but we have only his word that he is.  He hasn't
>substantiated his claim.  He behaves as a competitor worried that
>someone may ruin his market by publishing information.  Examine his
>posts carefully in the archives and you'll see he has told us nothing
>about interfacing to the devices other than that it's real difficult and
>that he finally knows what he's doing and when we all line up to buy his
>sensor interface we'll see how right he was.  It's mostly marketing of
>EGOR with very little substance.
>
>>
>> Seems to me that the "free exchange of information and ideas" includes
>> saying "I don't think so-and-so's information is correct".
>
>Of course.  That's why I support his right to keep his hard won
>knowledge about HEGO sensors to himself but I'd rather see a comment
>like,  "Paul's curve is wrong,  it supposed to look like this".  I'd
>also like him to keep his infomercial where we keep waiting for the
>price and are continually told how great EGOR is.  But wait... there's
>still more...
>
>>
>> IMO the comment about lying was a bit "over the top", but Gar is both
>> entitled to his opinion, and to air it on this list.  It's certainly
>> nothing to run crying to the "list police" about.
>
>My complaint is about the advertising and derogetory comments without a
>suggestion for improvement.  As I've said,  when it comes to the actual
>interface to the Honda sensor;  there is almost zero information from
>Garfield.  Lots on getting the correct sensor.  (which is useful to
>Garfield when we all line up to buy his product) but very little that
>would help us roll our own.
>
>>
>> BTW, I have absolutely no basis to judge who is right.  For all I
>know,
>> both are.  But, once again "free exchange" includes both "this is
>right",
>> and "no, that is wrong".
>>
>
>At the moment,  this EGOR sensor is what we call Vaporware in the
>electronics and software industry.  The only thing missing is the price
>of the EGOR when we buy 10,000 pieces. ;-)  If he really has a good
>product (and I doubt he has),  competition won't bother him.  Name
>calling and poor language is always the domain of the folks on the
>losing side of the debate as they have run out of facts and resort to
>other techniques to dissuade.
>
>Think of it this way.  The cars using the Wide Band Sensor (WBS) seem to
>be able to keep the sensor working and therefore the car working without
>too much trouble and the automobile marketplace is extremely price
>sensitive (pennies count).  Other than the cost of the WBS,  I suspect
>that the electronics is very inexpensive and may in fact account for
>only a small percentage of the overall cost of manufacturing the Engine
>Control Unit (ECU).  If that's the case,  (and I don't know if it is),
>then for a home brew, roll your own ignition,  the cost of the
>electronics for the WBS should be less than $15 dollars added to the
>engine micro-processor.  I'm basing this 'guess' on the patent
>information.  If your ECU has any kind of reporting information then
>getting the O2 sensor values ends up being simple.
>
>Cheers,
>
>John
>
>
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