Profiteers

[Shannen Durphey]

Jeffrey A. Webb wrote:
> 
> Shannen Durphey wrote:
> > Nothing stated here, on the list, has been given as a gift.  Nothing discussed off
> > list has been
> > given as a gift.
> 
> Not true.  How can you speak for everyone on the list?

You think I was speaking for you?  Or anyone other than me?  I do know I'm not the
only person who thinks this way.
I can say that no one should believe, expect, or plan on anything being given to
them.

> 
> > Unless a person clearly stipulates within an email or message
> > that he or she is
> > giving a gift, expect otherwise.
> >
> 
> I think Will is right when he says that an agreement must be made prior
> to the exchange of information. 

I'll try again.
Here is the agreement.  Don't use what I provide without the understanding that
it's not free.  What is the price?  Simple.  It depends.  Generally, I'd like to
see people who are using information from the list returning something to it. 
Simple for all, not too costly, and reasonable.  But what if you've taken something
I've worked for (or another member, IMO) and made money on it?  Well, then, the
bill has gone up.  How can I justify this?  Because the value of the information
has gone up.  The value has gone from something which can help a guy get his
project car running, or something that can help a guy save a few bucks, to
something that's generating income.  

Gold was only shiny metal to Native Americans.  Are you saying they shouldn't have
charged more than beads and broken bowls when the Europeans got excited over it? 
Do you think they didn't have a right to take it back when they found they weren't
getting fair value?

> This is the way things are done in most
> transactions I can think of.  Consider eating at a restaurant.  Do you
> negotiate the price of a meal after eating it?  How can you disagree
> with the price on the menu if you've already eaten the food?  

Exactly.  Do you think I order the food without understanding that there's a bill? 
Do you think I order anything if I cannot afford the price?  Do you think I would
use someone else's hard work without a clear understanding of what they expended in
time and effort?  "Oh, BTW, I'm glad you gave me a sandwich for half off.  I just
found somebody in the street that will pay me double what you normally charge. 
Isn't that great for me?"

> It is the
> same way with information on the list.  How can you give information to
> someone without telling him how much it is going to cost him?  How can
> he "give back" the information if he decides that the cost is too high?

Ya know, I don't even have credit cards.  Not a single one.  Why?  Because I don't
buy what I can't afford.  
But unfortunately I do pay for what other people can't afford.  Retailers add
additional markup to cover their losses.  Yeah, I know, most people don't think
that way.  But I can't really stop purchasing goods.  It's different with the list.
  
So, how can the person "give back" the information?  There are so many ways to give
back to the list.  Anyone, absolutely anyone can ask at any time about organizing
files on the ftp site, helping out by adding to the faq, adding color to the site,
editing archive messages...  Do something.  Send it to Steve R, offer it to the
list, something. If you see a need for it, don't expect someone else to do it. 
Volunteer.

> 
> > If a person chooses not to collect for any information used, it does not mean there
> > is no debt owed.  Just because they're not asking for payment does not mean there
> > is a
> > debt which does not need to be settled.
> >
> > A true gift is a rare thing indeed.  If you ask for something, you owe something in
> > return.  If you sign up to this list expecting to get information, you should
> > expect to give something back in return.  If you are contacted off list as a result
> > of requests posted to the list, you are not absolved of your debt.
> 
> Who defines this debt?  Who decides when a debt is repaid?  

Me, for the info of mine that's been used.  Ya know, honestly, it's like this.  Ask
yourself these questions:  Do you borrow anything from your neighbors, friends, or
family?  Do you give it back?  Do you have any problem loaning things to those same
people?  Is there an underlying sense of equality in your exchanges?  If you
borrowed $500 from someone, would you have any hesitation loaning them the same
amount?  If you have been in these situations, then you understand how someone can
define a debt, and how it can be repaid.  When time is involved, especially hobby
time, it's much harder to fix dollar amounts, or "well he borrowed my hammer" types
of value on the exchange.  But there is still an impression of value held by both
people.  When that sense of value is very different, somebody is going to get hurt.
> 
> > Is this clearly stated?
> 
> Your opinion certainly is. 

It's the terms of a contract. 
  
>  Just don't speak for the whole list.
  
Think of this as a way to approach this list.  Think of it as a way to approach any
list.  Believe that no one is giving away their time or energy.  Believe that no
one is here to work for free.  Believe that a community effort requires more than a
few to keep it supported.  Small question:  Do you know who pays to keep this list
running?  It's not a freebie, it's coming out of someone's pocket.  If that person
spoke up today and said costs were too high, I'd offer money.  I have before.  If
they said they were in debt because of it, I'd ask what I could do to help.  The
price may be more than I can afford, but it won't stop me from giving something.

> 
> I understand your outrage at people making a profit from your hard work
> without giving you a cut.  I think that is unethical and wrong from a
> moral standpoint.  I just don't think your expectations are practical.

Thank you.  It's more subtle.  I'm upset that people look at this list as a way to
get info to be used in making a quick buck.  There should be no hesitation, if
you've found a way to make some money, to make an effort to give something to the
source.  I'm upset that people seem to have no idea what's involved with becoming
"good" at any aspect of this hobby/trade/profession.  I'm upset that people
complain at the thought that this information shouldn't be considered free.  I'm
upset that some people just seem to think it's okay to "skim a little off the
top."  And I'm very upset that some list members think nobody gets hurt when this
happens.

How do we make this more realistic?  Glad you asked.  You'll have to look at the
list as something to support, not something that supports you.  Once you have this
attitude, it only takes a short time to realize how many people just "drop by for a
few drinks" and never show back up for their turn to buy. 

> I suggest that you don't publish anything on the list that you expect to
> be repaid for.  If you do, then explicitly state the conditions under
> which you are giving the information.

I did, and you sent this reply.
Shannen

> 
> Jeff Webb
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