DIY_EFI Digest V5 #514
DIY_EFI Digest
DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner at diy-efi.org
Tue Mar 13 23:07:35 GMT 2001
DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, March 1 2001 Volume 05 : Number 514
In this issue:
RE: Igniters => DIS
Re: Igniters => DIS
RE: Igniters => DIS
Re: CDI systems info wanted
even more simple waste spark help or burnt fingers,smoke and little fried bits...
Re: Igniters => DIS
Re: CDI systems info wanted
Re: CDI systems info wanted
DIY- UEGO
RE: Igniters => DIS
Re: Igniters => DIS
RE: Igniters => DIS
RE: Igniters => DIS
RE: Igniters => DIS
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DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:45:35 -0800
From: "Bob Wooten" <r71chevy at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Igniters => DIS
Jurgen,
thanks, if you run across the info on the Motorola chip I would be grateful.
I would go search their site but what site do I search (Motorola, Cheri or
ON semi)? if you cant come up with it, I'll get over it. maybe first I
will check the archives for the CNP or was the reference to DIS & Waste
spark?
I know it is a bunch of work, but it keeps me out of the bars & stimulates
the mind. I am running a 383, super ram, 700r4 & a 7730/8D. check it our
if you'd like www.r71camaro.homestead.com
BW
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jurgen Hartwig
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 8:43 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: Igniters => DIS
> I have been working on my little DIS project & am counting on the coil
> charging for a maximum of 3/4 of a rev of the crank. this being the
case @
> idle the circuit would have the longest "on" time @ 23.1 mS @ 650 RPM, &
the
> shortest time of 1.5 mS @ 10K RPM (yea like my stroker is going to get
to
> 10K, God I hope not or I will put small bits of stroker all over the
road).
> think that this would be too long @ idle? I am going to mock it up with
> LED's @ first & the plug the coils in later & see what happens.
>
Bob, in two pieces of literature I have (Ford FI manual and Wolf 3D
manual), coil dwell, or charge time, is between 4ms and 6.5ms. I believe
those are constant dwell times, and if that is true, then 23.1 ms is
probably too much. There is a Motorola chip that controls dwell.
However, I forget the number. I can try to find it if you would like, but
to be honest, fabricating all this sounds like a lot of time.
>
> if this does happen to be too long a charge time then maybe I will give
> James a ring & see if I cant get some of those smart igniters from him &
> skip the IGBT all together. I would much rather pay the $4 each than
$30
> each for igniters though. specially if I goto CNP ($30 X 8 = too much)
>
Bob, if memory serves, those CNP setups already have igniters on board.
$240 for CNP, or $20 * 4 for GM coils + $30 * 4 for smart igniters. If
you check the archives (1999) somebody (Gar or Bruce or perhaps Shannen)
had done a writeup about CNP. I can't remember if they are TTL. If so,
they might be your cheapest route. I can't remember what setup you were
running (what fuel injection system? Aftermarket or OE?)
Jay
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:41:21 -0600
From: steve ravet <sravet at arm.com>
Subject: Re: Igniters => DIS
Bob Wooten wrote:
>
> hmmmmmmmmm, there has to be a simple way to time this & keep $ & component
> count down. makes me think, & keeps the cob webs out of the head.
>
> thanks amigo
> BW
Try the LM1949 from NAt Semi. A smart coil driver, it starts off with
full voltage and reduces it as the coil charges. There's an example
circuit (Sandy's driver board) on the efi332 page.
- --steve
- --
Steve Ravet
steve.ravet at arm.com
ARM,Inc.
www.arm.com
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:59:10 -0800
From: "Bob Wooten" <r71chevy at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Igniters => DIS
tanx, off to check it out.
BW
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of steve ravet
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 6:41 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: Igniters => DIS
Bob Wooten wrote:
>
> hmmmmmmmmm, there has to be a simple way to time this & keep $ & component
> count down. makes me think, & keeps the cob webs out of the head.
>
> thanks amigo
> BW
Try the LM1949 from NAt Semi. A smart coil driver, it starts off with
full voltage and reduces it as the coil charges. There's an example
circuit (Sandy's driver board) on the efi332 page.
- --steve
- --
Steve Ravet
steve.ravet at arm.com
ARM,Inc.
www.arm.com
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:55:03 +1100
From: "Warwick Anderson" <racingfit at goconnect.net>
Subject: Re: CDI systems info wanted
Iv got a good modern CDI/MSD which Im building slowly, I mean to scan the
plans for any who wants em...
this unit can multi spark or be slightly changed to only spark twice per
firing.
In the plans it, it states it can handle 15,000 RPM for a V8.
now I just need to hunt down the cosworth DFV block...
for a basic CDI plan look at this link
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page2.htm
this one has one better thing than mine, it uses an off the shelf
transformer, where as mine you have to wind your own. something which im
still stuck on....
Hope this helps
Waz.
- -Subject: Re: CDI systems info wanted
> Interesting project....
>
> CDI information is hard to find, and those that have it are usually not in
the
> spirit of sharing. (maybee they came across it the hard way too, and want
some
> $$$ for all thier efforts)
>
> With my limited electronic knowledge I attempted to peek inside one of
those
> mysterious black boxes.....Friggin thing is so complicated it probably
could
> control a lot more than just a couple of coils charging....
>
> What machine are you working on??? maybee your chip swap would work for my
> purposes?
>
> Arnaud Westenberg wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > First I'd like to thank Rich M for suggesting the Motorola MGP20N40CL as
> > a replacement for my broken oem transistor in my motorcycle ignition.
> > It's running great again!
> >
> > I'm considering building a CDI ignition system for my bike and therefore
> > I'd like to ask a few questions. The system will be controlled by a
> > processor and have a coil per cylinder. Since I'm still in the EE
> > learning phase, I'm looking for information about how to build the high
> > voltage circuit used to charge the capacitor.
> >
> > Instead of charging a capacitor, I'm toying with the idea of having a
> > high voltage alternating current power supply. Obvious benefit would be
> > that spark duration could be as long as needed and could simply be
> > controlled by the processor. However I guess that components would be
> > quite large due to the power requirements. Are there any standard
> > components/circuitry to realize such a power supply from 12V?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Greetings Arnaud
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:11:24 +1100
From: "Warwick Anderson" <racingfit at goconnect.net>
Subject: even more simple waste spark help or burnt fingers,smoke and little fried bits...
Im about to build a waste spark system for the Hemi.
Iv got 3 coils from a Toyota waste spark system, in which one coil pak sits
on the plug and has a lead going to the other plug.
to trigger this I will have 3 reluctor pickups and a single trigger.
each reluctor pulse will go to a normal elec.ignition module and fire its
two plugs.
any one see a problem with this?
I was going to use the CDI/MSD as a single unit switched by transistors to
each coil pak but I think it was defeating the idea of waste spark? as the
CDI still has to charge and fire six times as normal. but weather the CDI
spark is better then waste spark spark I dont know...
When I finish the CDI I might run some dyno tests with both of em.
Any help would be great.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:15:21 -0600
From: "Jurgen Hartwig" <jhartwig at midsouth.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Igniters => DIS
> thanks, if you run across the info on the Motorola chip I would be
grateful.
> I would go search their site but what site do I search (Motorola, Cheri
or
> ON semi)? if you cant come up with it, I'll get over it. maybe first I
> will check the archives for the CNP or was the reference to DIS & Waste
> spark?
>
Hello Bob, I brainstormed and remembered where I saw the Motorola chip. A
fellow from my alma mater, Georgia Tech, designed a DIS system for one of
the school's Formula cars. The write-up is on the DIY-EFI webpage. The
portion of the article you need to view is in Portion 2, labeled
"Ignitor." Duh!!! :) Here is the weblink,
http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/projects/ddis/ddis2.htm
I am no electronics expert by any means, but this looks to be what you are
looking for. It has TTL input & dwell control, so it appears to fit your
needs. Please excuse me if I am wrong.
Regarding the CNP, or rather Smartcoil, as it was called in 1998 archives,
here are two pieces you and others might find interesting. Both below
quotes were written by Gar, I believe of EGOR fame.
"A guy in our Aviation group that
works in a GM lab sent me one of these off a decommissioned test
vehicle, and they are NOT mere IGN coils, they're complete single-coil
IGN "systems". They contain ALL the electronics for dwell control,
current limiting, etc etc. These coils are DIRECTLY run from the
ECM/PCM. There is NO module. They have 4 terminals (plus the HV
terminal, that uses these ratchet style terminals I was tellin bout
yesterday), two for Bat Gnd, and Bat +12V, and the other two are the
digital EST signal and it's low-noise gnd return. Not usable for ION as
a transformer-type coil, cuz you cain't get to either the primary or
secondary on these puppies, but still a VERY elegant setup, indeed.
That ain't all. The biggest shock is yet to come. Brace yerself. They're
actually CHEAP (and nice and light, too). I couldn't believe it when I
went to check them out further. The GM parts counter LIST price is $41
for each "smart coil", and EVEN the harness for tying four of them
together is reasonable, list price of $62. You get 4 connectors for the
4 coils, and another larger connector. Not a bad price for 4 GM
connectors and pigtails (if you decided you couldn't use the harness as
is), at the very least, and you might even be able to get the bigger
connector from Packard! The shorty coil wires (yes, these DON'T squat
ontop the coils) have them real nice connectors I mentioned, and they as
well are pretty reasonable, at $11 ea list."
And
"I have nary a clue as to what an ICM is; never heard that before, unless
you mean just a "module". But these coils have all the electronics in
them to do the dwell compensation, etc., so they have NO module, but are
fired directly by a 5V logic level signal coming from the PCM. There is
NO separate system for just the IGN, the PCM controls all the IGN & EFI.
As far as a retrofit, not without some additional electronics. You need
at LEAST a crank wheel to fire these per-plug coils in pairs, and if you
really wanna fire only one plug at a time, then you HAVE to have a cam
reference as well. In addition to mere triggering, you'd need something
to model an advance curve, both the certifugal part that's rpm
dependent, and the vacuum part that's MAP dependent.
Rather than an older style dizzy based retrofit, I'd say these new GM
SmartCoils are more appropriate for someone who's gonna buy an
aftermarket ECU that's cabable of outputing spark trigger signals
directly, on a per-cyl basis. Then they'd be ideal, just one wire pair
from ECU to coil per cylinder, and poof coil/module DI system a done
deal."
Bob, I know these "Smartcoils" are available on the V8 Camaros. You might
be able to find these in a wrecking yard. You can also wire the two
triggers together, ala DIS.
> I know it is a bunch of work, but it keeps me out of the bars &
stimulates
> the mind. I am running a 383, super ram, 700r4 & a 7730/8D. check it
our
> if you'd like www.r71camaro.homestead.com
>
Surfed over to your webpage. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
The engine in your camaro weighs as much as my '76 Porsche. I couldn't
stop laughing at your puny rear brakes. :) Me, I can stop on a dime, but
not much go juice. That's one nice engine, though. I also saw your old
VW toys. That is my fun now. Aircooled VWs and Porsches.
Good luck. Let me know if you do the Smartcoil thing. I am almost half
tempted to sell my RX-7 waste spark coils and just go with the Smartcoils.
They would be excellent for my small engine compartment, and since I'm
going to be running aftermarket engine management... ;)
Jay
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:15:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Carter Shore <clshore at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: CDI systems info wanted
Arnaud,
There are some schematics of older CDI boxes out
there, that utilize only a couple of transistors, and
no IC's to produce a simple and reliable CDI function.
The simplicity of these systems allows easy analysis
of the the fundamental CDI operation. Attaching a
scope (with suitable HV probe) while operating is very
revealing.
I'm not quite sure what advantage you seek by
eliminating the capacitor. It's an integral part of
the system's operation.
The coil and capacitor form a tuned circuit that
'rings' when the cap is discharged into the primary of
the coil, usually by an SCR. In fact, if an SCR is
used, there must be a freewheeling diode connected
accross it to allow the coil current to flow in both
directions as the circuit rings. There also must be
some protection from the pulses for the inverter
circuit itself.
The amplitude of the ringing decreases of course with
each cycle as the energy is lost through spark gap
ionization energy, and other parasitic and resistive
losses. At some point, (hopefully after at least one
spark at the plug), there will not be enough voltage
to fire the spark. Recharging and retriggering ( a la
MSD ) can be accomplished at lower RPM.
A single high voltage (400-600 V) power inverter can
easily supply enough energy to run several different
capacitor/SCR/coil sets, one for each spark plug. This
gives the simplicity and economy of a single HV power
stage, with the flexibility and fine control of
individual distributorless triggering.
Does anyone know for sure if the current crop of
coil-on-plug modules implements a true CD circuit, or
are we really talking about an array of tiny Kettering
ignitions?
Carter Shore
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:21:51 -0600
From: "Jurgen Hartwig" <jhartwig at midsouth.rr.com>
Subject: Re: CDI systems info wanted
I don't know jack about the inner workings of CDI, but there is an article
about the MSD-6A ignition box on the ftp site:
ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/diy_efi/documents/msd6a_02.pdf
There are schematics in the .pdf.
Jay
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:21:10 -0600
From: Chad Clendening <clendenc at execpc.com>
Subject: DIY- UEGO
Everything in the "CRUDE wide ratio O2 model is an approximation of how the UEGO appears to
work.
Chad
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:22:49 -0800
From: "Bob Wooten" <r71chevy at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Igniters => DIS
Steve,
I found the driver in the hardware section but the only thing in the
download was a BOM (for the Injector driver & the coil driver). any ideas
where I can find a print? I downloaded the spec sheet for the device from
the National site but I don't see how it can control ON time. it does have
a timer circuit in it but it only forces the device to goto the "hold"
current condition after one time constant & this is about 1/4 of the peak
current. unless there is a way to force the device to think that the hold
current is 0.
thanks
BW
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of steve ravet
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 6:41 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: Igniters => DIS
Bob Wooten wrote:
>
> hmmmmmmmmm, there has to be a simple way to time this & keep $ & component
> count down. makes me think, & keeps the cob webs out of the head.
>
> thanks amigo
> BW
Try the LM1949 from NAt Semi. A smart coil driver, it starts off with
full voltage and reduces it as the coil charges. There's an example
circuit (Sandy's driver board) on the efi332 page.
- --steve
- --
Steve Ravet
steve.ravet at arm.com
ARM,Inc.
www.arm.com
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:54:14 EST
From: Rexdina at aol.com
Subject: Re: Igniters => DIS
Hello Jay, In your response to Bob, would you happen to have the GM part
numbers for the components mentioned? Thanks, Harry.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:45:59 -0800
From: "Bob Wooten" <r71chevy at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Igniters => DIS
Harry,
James Ballenger posted a part number for a CNP coil the other day that has
the igniter built into it, but he did not know if it was a smart igniter or
not. the application was 00 'burban w/the 5.3L motor. the part number is
10457730. a friend of mine runs a Vette shop & he has Vettes & camaros in
all the time. maybe I can take a scope over to his place & see if I cant
synch on the ingition line going to the coil & tell if this is a TTL level
input (I would imagine so) or if this is a smart coil. kind of hoping that
I will be able to tell by looking @ the pulse width of the triggering
signal. maybe I can wrap a few turns of wire around the plug wire & get the
second channel of the scope to show me the output of the coil in
relationship to the trigger.
OR, if they are that cheap, I ought to go & buy one or two & hook it up &
see how much smoke I let out.
BW
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Rexdina at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 8:54 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: Igniters => DIS
Hello Jay, In your response to Bob, would you happen to have the GM part
numbers for the components mentioned? Thanks, Harry.
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 00:58:36 -0500
From: "James Ballenger" <vtjballeng at yifan.net>
Subject: RE: Igniters => DIS
They are already going on 2001 trucks too. I found them on a 00' suburban
5.3L engine. GM part # 10457730. I still wonder if these have dwell
control however, because this could still be controlled at the PCM. How
were you able to verify that they do have dwell control?
Thanks,
James Ballenger
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
>Behalf Of Jurgen Hartwig
>Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 11:15 PM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: Re: Igniters => DIS
>
>
>> thanks, if you run across the info on the Motorola chip I would be
>grateful.
>> I would go search their site but what site do I search
>(Motorola, Cheri
>or
>> ON semi)? if you cant come up with it, I'll get over it.
>maybe first I
>> will check the archives for the CNP or was the reference to
>DIS & Waste
>> spark?
>>
>
>Hello Bob, I brainstormed and remembered where I saw the
>Motorola chip. A
>fellow from my alma mater, Georgia Tech, designed a DIS system
>for one of
>the school's Formula cars. The write-up is on the DIY-EFI
>webpage. The
>portion of the article you need to view is in Portion 2, labeled
>"Ignitor." Duh!!! :) Here is the weblink,
>http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/projects/ddis/ddis2.htm
>
>I am no electronics expert by any means, but this looks to be
>what you are
>looking for. It has TTL input & dwell control, so it appears
>to fit your
>needs. Please excuse me if I am wrong.
>
>Regarding the CNP, or rather Smartcoil, as it was called in
>1998 archives,
>here are two pieces you and others might find interesting. Both below
>quotes were written by Gar, I believe of EGOR fame.
>
>"A guy in our Aviation group that
>works in a GM lab sent me one of these off a decommissioned test
>vehicle, and they are NOT mere IGN coils, they're complete single-coil
>IGN "systems". They contain ALL the electronics for dwell control,
>current limiting, etc etc. These coils are DIRECTLY run from the
>ECM/PCM. There is NO module. They have 4 terminals (plus the HV
>terminal, that uses these ratchet style terminals I was tellin bout
>yesterday), two for Bat Gnd, and Bat +12V, and the other two are the
>digital EST signal and it's low-noise gnd return. Not usable for ION as
>a transformer-type coil, cuz you cain't get to either the primary or
>secondary on these puppies, but still a VERY elegant setup, indeed.
>That ain't all. The biggest shock is yet to come. Brace
>yerself. They're
>actually CHEAP (and nice and light, too). I couldn't believe it when I
>went to check them out further. The GM parts counter LIST price is $41
>for each "smart coil", and EVEN the harness for tying four of them
>together is reasonable, list price of $62. You get 4 connectors for the
>4 coils, and another larger connector. Not a bad price for 4 GM
>connectors and pigtails (if you decided you couldn't use the harness as
>is), at the very least, and you might even be able to get the bigger
>connector from Packard! The shorty coil wires (yes, these DON'T squat
>ontop the coils) have them real nice connectors I mentioned,
>and they as
>well are pretty reasonable, at $11 ea list."
>
>And
>
>"I have nary a clue as to what an ICM is; never heard that
>before, unless
>you mean just a "module". But these coils have all the electronics in
>them to do the dwell compensation, etc., so they have NO
>module, but are
>fired directly by a 5V logic level signal coming from the PCM. There is
>NO separate system for just the IGN, the PCM controls all the
>IGN & EFI.
>As far as a retrofit, not without some additional electronics. You need
>at LEAST a crank wheel to fire these per-plug coils in pairs,
>and if you
>really wanna fire only one plug at a time, then you HAVE to have a cam
>reference as well. In addition to mere triggering, you'd need something
>to model an advance curve, both the certifugal part that's rpm
>dependent, and the vacuum part that's MAP dependent.
>Rather than an older style dizzy based retrofit, I'd say these new GM
>SmartCoils are more appropriate for someone who's gonna buy an
>aftermarket ECU that's cabable of outputing spark trigger signals
>directly, on a per-cyl basis. Then they'd be ideal, just one wire pair
>from ECU to coil per cylinder, and poof coil/module DI system a done
>deal."
>
>Bob, I know these "Smartcoils" are available on the V8
>Camaros. You might
>be able to find these in a wrecking yard. You can also wire the two
>triggers together, ala DIS.
>
>
>
>
>
>> I know it is a bunch of work, but it keeps me out of the bars &
>stimulates
>> the mind. I am running a 383, super ram, 700r4 & a 7730/8D.
> check it
>our
>> if you'd like www.r71camaro.homestead.com
>>
>
>Surfed over to your webpage. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
>The engine in your camaro weighs as much as my '76 Porsche. I couldn't
>stop laughing at your puny rear brakes. :) Me, I can stop on
>a dime, but
>not much go juice. That's one nice engine, though. I also
>saw your old
>VW toys. That is my fun now. Aircooled VWs and Porsches.
>
>
>Good luck. Let me know if you do the Smartcoil thing. I am
>almost half
>tempted to sell my RX-7 waste spark coils and just go with the
>Smartcoils.
>They would be excellent for my small engine compartment, and since I'm
>going to be running aftermarket engine management... ;)
>
>Jay
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:02:53 -0800
From: "Bob Wooten" <r71chevy at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Igniters => DIS
Puny rear brakes huh? you are going to give me brake envy, or LBS (little
brake syndrome). thanks for all the information. I had downloaded this
DDIS thing before, but my computer had crashed & when the "pro's" @ the
computer store "backed up" the hard drive to reformat it, they did not back
up the "projects" folder. all the stuff that I had for this (except for the
stuff @ work) was gone. that will teach me not to put the important stuff
onto CD, (the reason I bought the darn thing in the first place).
thanks for all the info. I am @ a cross roads now. I have the timing
circuit done but have to deal with drivers now. If I can get them all in 1
package why not? I guess I don't mind drilling holes in my valve covers.
or spose I could make some fancy ole bracket to come down off the super ram.
maybe drill holes right into the super ram, yea that's it. no, maybe put
them into the super ram & have the coil wires feed through the holes, nah,
that would take a lot of RTV to fill up the vacuum leaks.
time to goto bed I think.
thanks again to everyone,
BW
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jurgen Hartwig
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 8:15 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: Igniters => DIS
> thanks, if you run across the info on the Motorola chip I would be
grateful.
> I would go search their site but what site do I search (Motorola, Cheri
or
> ON semi)? if you cant come up with it, I'll get over it. maybe first I
> will check the archives for the CNP or was the reference to DIS & Waste
> spark?
>
Hello Bob, I brainstormed and remembered where I saw the Motorola chip. A
fellow from my alma mater, Georgia Tech, designed a DIS system for one of
the school's Formula cars. The write-up is on the DIY-EFI webpage. The
portion of the article you need to view is in Portion 2, labeled
"Ignitor." Duh!!! :) Here is the weblink,
http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/projects/ddis/ddis2.htm
I am no electronics expert by any means, but this looks to be what you are
looking for. It has TTL input & dwell control, so it appears to fit your
needs. Please excuse me if I am wrong.
Regarding the CNP, or rather Smartcoil, as it was called in 1998 archives,
here are two pieces you and others might find interesting. Both below
quotes were written by Gar, I believe of EGOR fame.
"A guy in our Aviation group that
works in a GM lab sent me one of these off a decommissioned test
vehicle, and they are NOT mere IGN coils, they're complete single-coil
IGN "systems". They contain ALL the electronics for dwell control,
current limiting, etc etc. These coils are DIRECTLY run from the
ECM/PCM. There is NO module. They have 4 terminals (plus the HV
terminal, that uses these ratchet style terminals I was tellin bout
yesterday), two for Bat Gnd, and Bat +12V, and the other two are the
digital EST signal and it's low-noise gnd return. Not usable for ION as
a transformer-type coil, cuz you cain't get to either the primary or
secondary on these puppies, but still a VERY elegant setup, indeed.
That ain't all. The biggest shock is yet to come. Brace yerself. They're
actually CHEAP (and nice and light, too). I couldn't believe it when I
went to check them out further. The GM parts counter LIST price is $41
for each "smart coil", and EVEN the harness for tying four of them
together is reasonable, list price of $62. You get 4 connectors for the
4 coils, and another larger connector. Not a bad price for 4 GM
connectors and pigtails (if you decided you couldn't use the harness as
is), at the very least, and you might even be able to get the bigger
connector from Packard! The shorty coil wires (yes, these DON'T squat
ontop the coils) have them real nice connectors I mentioned, and they as
well are pretty reasonable, at $11 ea list."
And
"I have nary a clue as to what an ICM is; never heard that before, unless
you mean just a "module". But these coils have all the electronics in
them to do the dwell compensation, etc., so they have NO module, but are
fired directly by a 5V logic level signal coming from the PCM. There is
NO separate system for just the IGN, the PCM controls all the IGN & EFI.
As far as a retrofit, not without some additional electronics. You need
at LEAST a crank wheel to fire these per-plug coils in pairs, and if you
really wanna fire only one plug at a time, then you HAVE to have a cam
reference as well. In addition to mere triggering, you'd need something
to model an advance curve, both the certifugal part that's rpm
dependent, and the vacuum part that's MAP dependent.
Rather than an older style dizzy based retrofit, I'd say these new GM
SmartCoils are more appropriate for someone who's gonna buy an
aftermarket ECU that's cabable of outputing spark trigger signals
directly, on a per-cyl basis. Then they'd be ideal, just one wire pair
from ECU to coil per cylinder, and poof coil/module DI system a done
deal."
Bob, I know these "Smartcoils" are available on the V8 Camaros. You might
be able to find these in a wrecking yard. You can also wire the two
triggers together, ala DIS.
> I know it is a bunch of work, but it keeps me out of the bars &
stimulates
> the mind. I am running a 383, super ram, 700r4 & a 7730/8D. check it
our
> if you'd like www.r71camaro.homestead.com
>
Surfed over to your webpage. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
The engine in your camaro weighs as much as my '76 Porsche. I couldn't
stop laughing at your puny rear brakes. :) Me, I can stop on a dime, but
not much go juice. That's one nice engine, though. I also saw your old
VW toys. That is my fun now. Aircooled VWs and Porsches.
Good luck. Let me know if you do the Smartcoil thing. I am almost half
tempted to sell my RX-7 waste spark coils and just go with the Smartcoils.
They would be excellent for my small engine compartment, and since I'm
going to be running aftermarket engine management... ;)
Jay
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