From Djfreggens at aol.com Sun Dec 1 05:11:08 2002 From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 02:11:08 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] running extra injectors off a stock ecu Message-ID: --part1_39.30f65352.2b1af28d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yeah that might work beig as your doubling the size of the maf it will approxaimtley underreport by about 75% or so and yeah sounds intersting for sure keep me updated --part1_39.30f65352.2b1af28d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yeah that might work beig as your doubling the size of the maf it will approxaimtley underreport by about 75% or so and yeah sounds intersting for sure keep me updated --part1_39.30f65352.2b1af28d_boundary-- _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From allaboutspeed at hotmail.com Sun Dec 1 05:18:18 2002 From: allaboutspeed at hotmail.com (Donnie Freichels) Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 02:18:18 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] running extra injectors off a stock ecu Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_652f_5a9c_9d4 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed well for any one that should need this its a schematic on how to build a injector driver for adding a injector.its still runs off the stock ecu .i havent tried it yet im waiting for parts.if any one has the parts and feels like trying it let me know how it works.the reason im doing this is for this, i have a nissan ca18det 1.8 turbo.it has 8 intake runners,only 4 have injestors,the others have carbon build up,i have build make high powered motors and it just makes sence to have gas intering both valves,and the fact that im cheap and plan on using 8 stock injectors because i have them,the stock size is 370cc so ill have 740cc per cyl. which also makes it easy for me to change the fuel map by cutting it in half to run as if it were stock.im also changing the mafs to about twice the size of the stock one .so i have twice the air that it reads.so im thinking that if i do both i shouldnt have to do any thing.will it work ?ill let you know in about a month.thankx for the help.and if some one builds this thing before i do please let me know how well it works From: Djfreggens at aol.com >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] running extra injectors off a stock ecu >Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:53:24 EST > >
why are you doing this ?? just cursrios. i havent had a chance to test 
>long
>term durability on this one. but i recently put 8 low z injectors where 8
>high impenedce used to be. what i did was wire the injectors in pairs in
>sieres then i parraled the pairs. this kept the impedence high enough to 
>keep
>from overdriving the ecm. however and i warn you very strongly this is not
>the best method and im not super sure its gonna hold up in the long run. 
>but
>time will tell.(i have sevral spare ecms to play with) now there are some
>people around here that have built bascially off ecm driver boards that use
>the outgiong injector current to switch the injectors on but use larger
>higher load transistors to fire the injectors . this is a better method. 
>and
>if i knew how to design and build one i would have done this myself. but my
>issue is flyback current what to do with the icnoming high voltage line etc
>etc etc. someone a while back posted a schematic but i didnt think it 
>offered
>enogh protection to the ecm. but its gotta be better then doing what i
>mentioned above. these are options read them and see which works best for
>you.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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------=_NextPart_000_652f_5a9c_9d4--

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From bcroe at juno.com  Sun Dec  1 17:51:23 2002
From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 14:51:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Running extra injectors off a stock ecu
Message-ID: 

With a simple 1N4004 kickback diode, the (saturated) injector 
will be pretty sluggish closing.  How are you driving the inputs? 

Bruce Roe

27 Nov 2002 "Donnie Freichels"  writes:
> Well for any one that should need this its a schematic on 
> how to build a injector driver for adding a injector.  Its still 
> runs off the stock ecu.  I havent tried it yet 

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From rnwilkinson at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  1 20:37:32 2002
From: rnwilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert Wilkinson)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:37:32 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Getting low impedance injectors to work with Gen 6 Accel DFI
Message-ID: 

Has anyone tried using 8 low impedance injectors with
a Gen 6 Accel Batch fire DFI (015013)?


Mr. Gasket is currently claiming that this DFI will
not drive 8 low impedance injectors.
http://www.mrgasket.com/maildirect/helpdesk/problemdetail.asp?ID=46895&TicketID=46895

However, there are 3 reasons that I?m not 100%
convinced it won?t work:

1)
Before the introduction of the Gen 7 DFI and the
Variable Injector Controller, Mr. Gasket used to claim
that the Gen 6 Batch fire DFI would support 8 low
impedance injectors.  An article about the Gen 6 was
printed in the Jan 1998 issue of High Tech Performance
magazine.
It said ?The deficiency of most factory ECU?s was also
corrected by the employment of four peak-and-hold
drivers in lieu of the customary two saturated drivers
that most OE management systems incorporate.  This
allowed the DFI the ability to control low-resistance
high-flow injectors, enabling the fuel system to
support huge hp numbers.?
Mr. Gasket was listed as the source of this article. 
I asked Mr. Gasket about this in March 2000, and they
emailed me and said ?Sir, The article is incorrect?. 
However, they still keep a copy of this article on
their website today.  The quote is on page 15 of 34:
http://www.mrgasket.com/pdf/DFI.pdf

2)
The EMIC manual lists the typical current requirement
for a low impedance injector, and it?s very close to
meeting the specifications of the drivers.
?If a peak and hold injector or driver is rated at 4/1
amps that translates as 4 amps to open the injector
and 1 amp to keep it opened.?  Then it says ?A
standard 015013 ECU incorporates 4 4/1 drivers?
page 15 of http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/pdf/EMIC.pdf
Then they show a graph of a current vs. time for a low
impedance injector.  It peaks at approx 2.5 amps, then
holds at approx 0.5 amps.
See figure 1.15 on page 14 of
http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/pdf/EMIC.pdf
Using 2 injectors with one driver would then require a
5 amp peak, and 1 amp to hold.  Would this be possible
with a 4 amp peak, 1 amp hold driver?

3)
Why would Accel choose to install 4 expensive
peak-and-hold injector drivers instead of 2 cheap
saturated drivers like the OEM?s typically did?


-Rob

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From eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com  Mon Dec  2 14:34:56 2002
From: eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com (Eric.Fahlgren)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:34:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Running extra injectors off a stock ecu
Message-ID: 

bcroe at juno.com wrote:
> 
> With a simple 1N4004 kickback diode, the (saturated) injector
> will be pretty sluggish closing.  How are you driving the inputs?

Bruce,

Ok, time for me to get some education.

Is this because there is a reverse voltage ring on the injector
coil?  Would this be made better by a zener to ground?  Would the
best solution be to have a pair of signals, open and close, which
control two transistors one for each of the modes?

Thanks,
Eric

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From diy-efi at t-n-e.com  Mon Dec  2 18:45:07 2002
From: diy-efi at t-n-e.com (Phil Hunter)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 15:45:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
Message-ID: 

Eric B. wrote:

> > My understanding is that the resonant frequency of detonation is
> > a function of bore diameter as the supersonic sound waves bounce
> > back and forth, so a Cavalier knock sensor is probably tuned way
> > off frequency.
> 
> How could this be?  Sound waves are not supersonic.  By definition they
> are "sonic".  They travel at Mach 1, which is however quite higher than
> in the atmosphere due to the heat and the pressure.  Second, how is the
> resonant frequency relevant?  Peak pressure is on the order of 1300 psi
> during combustion, and detonation causes a pressure wave at about 5000
> psi, several degrees of crank angle after the normal pressure peak.
> Anything that will detect that kind of pressure jump will detect a
> detonation, I would think.  Also, I would think the response speed would
> be more important than the frequency the sensor is tuned to.

Yeah, poorly worded on my part, Mach 1 inside, supersonic relative to
outside.

I think you'll find the spike occurs several degrees before the normal
pressure peak rather than after it. Once the pressure and temperature
are falling, detonation should not occur.

For whatever reason, Jon wanted to detect detonation acoustically, so
I was steering him away from his initial choice of a Cavalier(?) knock
sensor as counter-productive. I suspect that after he reads the URLs,
he'll abandon the acoustic approach altogether.

Mike wrote:

> Would you be doing the whole f/back on a PID type controller
> or perhaps multiple parallel PID type threaded segments, I
> was toying with something like this in 82 when I did a thesis on
> using a Z80 for engine control of a Ford escort 1.6L using VW
> K-jetronic parts - back then the PID was a bit too complex for
> me - decisions of transient vs steady-state where a bit of an
> overhead in s/w, these days its run of the mill mostly.
> 
> How much logging memory would you be using ? Would you set it
> up as a rolling fifo type with Kalman filtering for O2 and AFM
> inputs  for rate of change info as well ?

I'm not sure who this is directed to, but for me, I'd be ecstatic
just to get past the physical/mechanical/electronic aspects and see
waveforms on an o'scope. Check out the first URL I listed, and perhaps
contact Ville for the info you're interested in.

Eric F. wrote:
[snip]
> aG9vIG1lZ2Fqb2x0IGxpc3QsIHNvIHNlYXJjaCBvdmVyIHRoZXJlIGluIHRoZSBhcmNoaXZ

Yup.

[snip]
> YXQgaXQgaXMgdHJhbnNtaXR0ZWQgdGhyb3VnaCB0aGF0IGJpZyBtZWNoYW5pY2FsDQphdWR

Nope. ;)

rgds,
philh
(digest)

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From eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com  Mon Dec  2 19:19:55 2002
From: eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com (Eric.Fahlgren)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:19:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
Message-ID: 

Phil Hunter wrote:

> Eric F. wrote:
> [snip]
> > aG9vIG1lZ2Fqb2x0IGxpc3QsIHNvIHNlYXJjaCBvdmVyIHRoZXJlIGluIHRoZSBhcmNoaXZ
> 
> Yup.
> 
> [snip]
> > YXQgaXQgaXMgdHJhbnNtaXR0ZWQgdGhyb3VnaCB0aGF0IGJpZyBtZWNoYW5pY2FsDQphdWR
> 
> Nope. ;)


Exactly.  I was using that piece of $hit Lotus iNotes to do e-mail from
home last week and I still can't figure out how to polish a turd...

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From MarkRShirley at eaton.com  Mon Dec  2 19:55:28 2002
From: MarkRShirley at eaton.com (Shirley, Mark R)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:55:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel Gen 6 DFI
Message-ID: 



> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org]
> Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 3:00 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #384 - 4 msgs
> 
> 
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 12:36:29 -0800 (PST)
> From: Robert Wilkinson 
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Getting low impedance injectors to work 
> with Gen 6 Accel DFI
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> Has anyone tried using 8 low impedance injectors with
> a Gen 6 Accel Batch fire DFI (015013)?
> 
> 
> Mr. Gasket is currently claiming that this DFI will
> not drive 8 low impedance injectors.
> http://www.mrgasket.com/maildirect/helpdesk/problemdetail.asp?
> ID=46895&TicketID=46895
> 
> However, there are 3 reasons that I'm not 100%
> convinced it won't work:
> 
> 1)
> Before the introduction of the Gen 7 DFI and the
> Variable Injector Controller, Mr. Gasket used to claim
> that the Gen 6 Batch fire DFI would support 8 low
> impedance injectors.  An article about the Gen 6 was
> printed in the Jan 1998 issue of High Tech Performance
> magazine.
> It said "The deficiency of most factory ECU's was also
> corrected by the employment of four peak-and-hold
> drivers in lieu of the customary two saturated drivers
> that most OE management systems incorporate.  This
> allowed the DFI the ability to control low-resistance
> high-flow injectors, enabling the fuel system to
> support huge hp numbers."
> Mr. Gasket was listed as the source of this article. 
> I asked Mr. Gasket about this in March 2000, and they
> emailed me and said "Sir, The article is incorrect". 
> However, they still keep a copy of this article on
> their website today.  The quote is on page 15 of 34:
> http://www.mrgasket.com/pdf/DFI.pdf
> 
> 2)
> The EMIC manual lists the typical current requirement
> for a low impedance injector, and it's very close to
> meeting the specifications of the drivers.
> "If a peak and hold injector or driver is rated at 4/1
> amps that translates as 4 amps to open the injector
> and 1 amp to keep it opened."  Then it says "A
> standard 015013 ECU incorporates 4 4/1 drivers"
> page 15 of http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/pdf/EMIC.pdf
> Then they show a graph of a current vs. time for a low
> impedance injector.  It peaks at approx 2.5 amps, then
> holds at approx 0.5 amps.
> See figure 1.15 on page 14 of
> http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/pdf/EMIC.pdf
> Using 2 injectors with one driver would then require a
> 5 amp peak, and 1 amp to hold.  Would this be possible
> with a 4 amp peak, 1 amp hold driver?
> 
> 3)
> Why would Accel choose to install 4 expensive
> peak-and-hold injector drivers instead of 2 cheap
> saturated drivers like the OEM's typically did?
> 
> 
> -Rob
> 
Rob, the way it was explained to me was that you "could" run 8 low-u
injectors off a 
015013 ECU, but it wouldn't work reliably, or long.  I asked one of the guys
who works
at DFI, in Wixom, MI.  It was more so that the drag racer could do it and
use the cheaper
non-SEFI box for short periods that they used the 4 peak/hold drivers. 

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From gerard at poboxes.com  Mon Dec  2 21:40:59 2002
From: gerard at poboxes.com (Gerard)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 18:40:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford cam position sensor...
Message-ID: 

Hi!

Can anyone provide me with information on the Ford cam position sensor
(part number DU-47 or Napa number ECHCSS405)?

I am still looking for a nice compact cam angle sensor to replace my
distributor and this recently caught my eye. I am not familiar with
Fords so I thought someone here might know about this sensor. I am
specifically looking for photos of the connector and the underside of
the sensor (where the cam drive input goes or where a windowed wheel
must pass).

I'm also curious about the operation of this unit and what items it will
need (eg. a wheel with a reference window or something like that). I
don't know whether it contains a hall sensor and an opening for a
windowed wheel or whether it is directly driven. Any help welcome. :)

Thanks.

G.

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From diy-efi at t-n-e.com  Mon Dec  2 21:50:36 2002
From: diy-efi at t-n-e.com (Phil Hunter)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 18:50:36 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Low cost 2-axis accelerometer
Message-ID: 

The Dec. '02 issue of Nuts-N-Volts magazine has an article on a 2 axis
accelerometer from http://www.memsic.com, price is in the $10-15 range.
Outputs are either a digital PWM or analog voltage depending on model,
most seem to be either +/- 2 or 10G's. Most are surface mount, but the
"GW" suffix parts are 14 pin DIPs.

The technology they are using is interesting, details on their web site,
I wouldn't think it would be suitable for automotive environments, but
they mention using it for air-bags.

Obvious use for DIYers is data logging and correlating tuning w/
acceleration and horsepower. Not exactly related to this list, but one
app. note suggests using it for a burglar alarm.

Frequency response rolls off about 30Hz, but they have an app. note on
how to get beyond 160Hz, makes me wonder if there might be some way to
use it to monitor an engine, detecting a misfire perhaps? Getting a
"signature" for later comparison?
 
The article states the 2125GW is identical to Analog Devices ADXL202.

rgds,
philh
(digest)

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From bcroe at juno.com  Mon Dec  2 22:38:40 2002
From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 19:38:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Running extra injectors off a stock ecu
Message-ID: 

Eric, 

The rate you add or remove energy from a magnetic circuit 
depends on the applied voltage.  You opened it with 14 volts.  
Letting the current kick into a 1N4004 will only give .7 volts, 
so the rate of decay will be a dozen or so times slower.  The 
release time will therefore be slow.  

There are other losses, like the coil resistance, which help the 
decay.  Low resistance peak & hold injectors need the high 
voltage kickback the most.  

Letting it kick into maybe a large 40 volt Zener across the 
transistor (or equivalent circuit) will speed the magnetic 
collapse, before it can close.

Bruce Roe

On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:23:52 -0500 "Eric.Fahlgren"
 writes:
> Bruce,
> 
> Ok, time for me to get some education.
> 
> Is this because there is a reverse voltage ring on the injector
> coil?  Would this be made better by a zener to ground?  Would the
> best solution be to have a pair of signals, open and close, which
> control two transistors one for each of the modes?

> Eric

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From steve.andersen at dol.net  Tue Dec  3 01:58:49 2002
From: steve.andersen at dol.net (Stephen M Andersen)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 22:58:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EGORtech products
Message-ID: 

Have any of you guys ever ordered/purchased anything
from the "esteemed" Mr Garfield Willis?

Not trying to start a flame war here.  If anyone has 
purchased anything from him or EGORtech, please 
contact me offline at:

steve.andersen at dol.net

Thanks,
Steve




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From Aaron at lightfirst.com  Tue Dec  3 02:33:12 2002
From: Aaron at lightfirst.com (Aaron)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:33:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Spark Table
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C29A41.CF680E10
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello all,=20

I am new to the list and was wondering if I could ask something of your =
collective experience and intelligence. I recently purchased a FAST =
(formerly Speedpro) computer with the Wide band O2. I currently have my =
spark table set to 16d at idle and linearly increasing to 34d at 3000 =
(and up). 34d is where the car made max power on the dyno. I have the =
spark set flat in this fashion at all kPa levels and was wondering if I =
could have some pointers on what else to do. I heard that at lower kPas =
and higher RPMs you can run more spark advance safely to improve =
throttle response. I have been looking at GM spark tables, but they only =
go to 3600rpm and for some reason are at only 20d at the highest RPMs =
and kPas. I think I am reading them incorrectly.=20

Anyway, to make a long post short, I am looking for a "standard" =
performance spark table for a GM smallblock to use as a starting point =
for future tuning. Any help would be appreciated.=20

Also, are there any Speedpro guys in the Chicagoland area that could =
give me some pointers as to the rest of my calibration?

Thank you,
-Aaron
'90 Caprice 9C1 12.73 @ 105.75 1.7 60'

------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C29A41.CF680E10
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Hello all, 


 


I am new to the list and was wondering =
if I could=20
ask something of your collective experience and intelligence. I recently =

purchased a FAST (formerly Speedpro) computer with the Wide band O2. I =
currently=20
have my spark table set to 16d at idle and linearly increasing to =
34d at=20
3000 (and up). 34d is where the car made max power on the dyno. I =
have the=20
spark set flat in this fashion at all kPa levels and was wondering if I =
could=20
have some pointers on what else to do. I heard that at lower kPas and =
higher=20
RPMs you can run more spark advance safely to improve throttle response. =
I have=20
been looking at GM spark tables, but they only go to 3600rpm and for =
some reason=20
are at only 20d at the highest RPMs and kPas. I think I am reading them=20
incorrectly. 


 


Anyway, to make a long post short, I am =
looking for=20
a "standard" performance spark table for a GM smallblock to use as a =
starting=20
point for future tuning. Any help would be appreciated. 


 


Also, are there any Speedpro guys in =
the=20
Chicagoland area that could give me some pointers as to the rest of my=20
calibration?


 


Thank you,


-Aaron


'90 Caprice 9C1 12.73 @ 105.75 1.7=20
60'


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From sy2th at direcway.com  Tue Dec  3 02:39:54 2002
From: sy2th at direcway.com (Barry)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:39:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Low cost 2-axis accelerometer
Message-ID: 

I use a unit by Crossbow for tuning purposes - cost a bundle more, though 
($105, IIRC)!  Definitely gives some numbers to play with regarding 'real' 
acceleration vs. 'seat of the pants'.  Spikes in accel can make the vehicle 
*feel* faster, but the area under the curve plotted vs time gives the true 
picture.  Dunno about monitoring an actual engine with one, but I recall an 
article awhile back about one used on the belt tensioner to pick up knock - 
apparently the crankshaft gets a noticeable 'kick' from a knock event.

Barry

At 01:53 PM 12/2/02 -0800, you wrote:
>The Dec. '02 issue of Nuts-N-Volts magazine has an article on a 2 axis
>accelerometer from http://www.memsic.com, price is in the $10-15 range.
>Outputs are either a digital PWM or analog voltage depending on model,
>most seem to be either +/- 2 or 10G's. Most are surface mount, but the
>"GW" suffix parts are 14 pin DIPs.
>
>The technology they are using is interesting, details on their web site,
>I wouldn't think it would be suitable for automotive environments, but
>they mention using it for air-bags.
>
>Obvious use for DIYers is data logging and correlating tuning w/
>acceleration and horsepower. Not exactly related to this list, but one
>app. note suggests using it for a burglar alarm.
>
>Frequency response rolls off about 30Hz, but they have an app. note on
>how to get beyond 160Hz, makes me wonder if there might be some way to
>use it to monitor an engine, detecting a misfire perhaps? Getting a
>"signature" for later comparison?
>
>The article states the 2125GW is identical to Analog Devices ADXL202.
>
>rgds,
>philh
>(digest)
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From karlgriffin at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  3 02:59:13 2002
From: karlgriffin at yahoo.com (Karl Griffin)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:59:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] camshaft position sensor location
Message-ID: 

Please help!  I'm searching in vain for the location
of the CMP on my 1999 GMC Sierra 1500.  Motor is a
V-8, 4.8L.  Any help is greatly appreciated

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From Aaron at lightfirst.com  Tue Dec  3 04:07:45 2002
From: Aaron at lightfirst.com (Aaron)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:07:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Bouncing Map readings
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C29A4E.519EBF80
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What could be the cause of my MAP sensor reading between 96 and 103 =
(bouncing up and down) at WOT? Maybe it is picking up induction pulses =
from the runners? I have it piped to a port in the back of my intake =
manifold.

Thanks,
-Aaron

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C29A4E.519EBF80
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









What could be the cause of my MAP =
sensor reading=20
between 96 and 103 (bouncing up and down) at WOT? Maybe it is picking up =

induction pulses from the runners? I have it piped to a port in the back =
of my=20
intake manifold.


 


Thanks,
-Aaron


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec  3 04:30:23 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:30:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Bouncing Map readings
Message-ID: 

classic pneumatic type oscillations in your plenum I woudl have thought,
its not as much as I have heard about - so consider yourself lucky ;)

If you want to smooth it out a bit run a static column fromt he plenum
to your map sensor through a small dia pipe or a carefully chosen cap
across the map sensor output - I prefer the former instead of loading
the map electrical output and still have good transient response,

rgds

mike


At 10:01 PM 2/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>What could be the cause of my MAP sensor reading between 96 and 103
(bouncing up and down) at WOT? Maybe it is picking up induction pulses from
the runners? I have it piped to a port in the back of my intake manifold.
>
>Thanks,
>-Aaron
>
>Attachment Converted: "C:\MAIL\INCOMING\Diy_efiB"
>

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From mikebb1 at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  3 05:19:07 2002
From: mikebb1 at hotmail.com (mike beebe)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 02:19:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] camshaft position sensor location
Message-ID: 

It is at the back of the motor where the distributor would be on the old 
small blocks. I have a picture of it on my webpage at 
Http://www.mywebpages.comcast.net/beebe_mike
I hope this helps






From: Karl Griffin 
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: [Diy_efi] camshaft position sensor location
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:52:26 -0800 (PST)
>
>Please help!  I'm searching in vain for the location
>of the CMP on my 1999 GMC Sierra 1500.  Motor is a
>V-8, 4.8L.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
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>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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From prevost.3 at osu.edu  Tue Dec  3 09:07:11 2002
From: prevost.3 at osu.edu (Jon Prevost)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 06:07:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
Message-ID: 

> For whatever reason, Jon wanted to detect detonation acoustically, so
> I was steering him away from his initial choice of a Cavalier(?) knock
> sensor as counter-productive. I suspect that after he reads the URLs,
> he'll abandon the acoustic approach altogether.

Consider it abandoned for our project. I just found out that we have the
tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now. Well that and
finals.
If I was going to go with the acoustic method I would have had to setup a
lot of dry experiments and I wasn't ready to sit down, start the motor and
record what happens to the acoustics while I "unhook" a timing chain, or cut
fuel, etc. Too many issues to deal with. I still think it would be a fun
project to record the general frequency range of detonation and see if there
are any traights apparently obvious.
Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.
, Jon


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From skulte at skulte.com  Tue Dec  3 12:32:08 2002
From: skulte at skulte.com (Andris Skulte)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 09:32:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
Message-ID: 

This isn't accoustic, but on page 455 of Heywood's Internal Combustion
Engine Fundamentals, they run a bandpass filter on their cylinder pressure
transducer for the first transverse mode of gas vibration in the cylinder
(in 3 to 10 kHz range, depending on bore and geometry). later on page 460,
he mentiones immediately after the pressure spike, they see pressure
oscillation at the 6 to 8 kHz range... ... page 461: "The frequency of
pressure oscillations (in 5 to 10 kHz range) decreases with time as the
initially finite amplitude supersonic pressure waves decal to small
amplitude sound waves.

Andris/Z28tt

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Jon Prevost wrote:

> > For whatever reason, Jon wanted to detect detonation acoustically, so
> > I was steering him away from his initial choice of a Cavalier(?) knock
> > sensor as counter-productive. I suspect that after he reads the URLs,
> > he'll abandon the acoustic approach altogether.
> 
> Consider it abandoned for our project. I just found out that we have the
> tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now. Well that and
> finals.
> If I was going to go with the acoustic method I would have had to setup a
> lot of dry experiments and I wasn't ready to sit down, start the motor and
> record what happens to the acoustics while I "unhook" a timing chain, or cut
> fuel, etc. Too many issues to deal with. I still think it would be a fun
> project to record the general frequency range of detonation and see if there
> are any traights apparently obvious.
> Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.
> , Jon
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 

------------------
Andris Skulte
Skulte Performance Designs
http://www.skulte.com  
Z28tt-89 IROC T56 DFI Twin Turbo


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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Tue Dec  3 13:53:06 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:53:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
Message-ID: 

At 4:10 AM 11/19/02, Jon Prevost wrote:

 I just found out that we have the
>tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now.

>Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.

>, Jon
>
Could you share a bit about just WHAT tools you have for ion sensing??

Thanks,

Greg



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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  3 19:45:12 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:45:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
Message-ID: 

Yes, PLEASE share. I'd love to have a way of determining PPP (Peak Pressure
Point).

>  I just found out that we have the
> >tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now.
>
> >Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.
>
> >, Jon
> >
> Could you share a bit about just WHAT tools you have for ion sensing??



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From munglet at hotmail.com  Wed Dec  4 01:34:50 2002
From: munglet at hotmail.com (marcus vincent)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:34:50 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Capacity of Siemens / Deka 3104 Injector
Message-ID: 

I've come across a set of Siemens injectors, but all I can see for a Part 
Number on them is 3105 printed in white on the left side of the injector 
when looking from the top down.  Does anyone know their lb/hour and 
impedance?  If you don't happen to know do you know of anyone else or shop 
that would know?

Thanks!

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From Adnan.Merchant at TycoHealthcare.com  Wed Dec  4 01:34:55 2002
From: Adnan.Merchant at TycoHealthcare.com (Merchant, Adnan)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:34:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Fuel pump sizing?
Message-ID: 

Hi,

I've looked through the archives but couldn't find how I would go about
sizing a fuel pump for an EFI application.

The engine is a carb conversion, which means the fuel tank won't accommodate
a pump.   Would an external in-line pump pull from a tube going in from the
top of the tank or would I need a pre-pump like some cars have?   Does it
make sense to draw fuel from the bottom of the tank, such as from the drain
plug?   I realize that sediments would be an issue but other than that is
there any reason one shouldn't?

The engine is a 3-liter inline six, normally aspirated, with 19lb/hr
injectors.   I'd guess it will produce around 175 hp and 200 lb-ft of
torque.   What lb/hr pump should I use and is there a specific unit you'd
recommend?   I've heard that an excessive flow rate could cause fuel boiling
and separation.

Thanks, as usual, for your help.

Regards,
Adnan

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From nwester at eidnet.org  Wed Dec  4 02:18:29 2002
From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 23:18:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Fuel pump sizing?
Message-ID: 

Since I'm twiddling my thumbs right now,

You've got (6) 19lb/hr injectors, so you need a pump that will feed at least
114 lbs/hr @ rated pressure. For 175 HP and BSFC of 0.50, you need a minimum
87.5 lbs/hr of fuel.
For the sake of safety, I'd look for something in the 130-150 lb/hr or 21
GPH rating (at rated Fuel pressure).

Quick rule of thumb--divide "HP needed" by two for "lbs/hr required."

Lyndon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merchant, Adnan" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 6:39 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Fuel pump sizing?


> Hi,
>
> I've looked through the archives but couldn't find how I would go about
> sizing a fuel pump for an EFI application.
>
> The engine is a carb conversion, which means the fuel tank won't
accommodate
> a pump.   Would an external in-line pump pull from a tube going in from
the
> top of the tank or would I need a pre-pump like some cars have?   Does it
> make sense to draw fuel from the bottom of the tank, such as from the
drain
> plug?   I realize that sediments would be an issue but other than that is
> there any reason one shouldn't?
>
> The engine is a 3-liter inline six, normally aspirated, with 19lb/hr
> injectors.   I'd guess it will produce around 175 hp and 200 lb-ft of
> torque.   What lb/hr pump should I use and is there a specific unit you'd
> recommend?   I've heard that an excessive flow rate could cause fuel
boiling
> and separation.
>
> Thanks, as usual, for your help.
>
> Regards,
> Adnan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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From ling at calweb.com  Wed Dec  4 02:50:03 2002
From: ling at calweb.com (Larry Ing)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 23:50:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Ion sensing???- 15 msgs
Message-ID: 


I am a recent subscriber to this list and have enjoyed it greatly in the 
last week since I joined...

Could you please post the whereabouts on the information for Ion 
sensing?  Is there any discrimination as to the nature of these ions?  Can 
I assume this must be from the exhaust?

Larry

At 11:50 AM 12/3/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Send Diy_efi mailing list submissions to
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>
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>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of Diy_efi digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Accel Gen 6 DFI (Shirley, Mark R)
>    2. Ford cam position sensor... (Gerard)
>    3. Low cost 2-axis accelerometer (Phil Hunter)
>    4. Running extra injectors off a stock ecu (bcroe at juno.com)
>    5. EGORtech products (Stephen M Andersen)
>    6. Spark Table (Aaron)
>    7. Re: Low cost 2-axis accelerometer (Barry)
>    8. camshaft position sensor location (Karl Griffin)
>    9. Bouncing Map readings (Aaron)
>   10. Re: Bouncing Map readings (Mike)
>   11. Re: camshaft position sensor location (mike beebe)
>   12. Re: Re: Custom detonation detecting (Jon Prevost)
>   13. Re: Re: Custom detonation detecting (Andris Skulte)
>   14. Re: Re: Custom detonation detecting (Greg Hermann)
>   15. Re: Re: Custom detonation detecting (Derek)
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
From: "Shirley, Mark R" 
>To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" 
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:54:56 -0500
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel Gen 6 DFI
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org]
> > Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 3:00 PM
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #384 - 4 msgs
> >
> >
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 12:36:29 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Robert Wilkinson 
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: [Diy_efi] Getting low impedance injectors to work
> > with Gen 6 Accel DFI
> > Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >
> > Has anyone tried using 8 low impedance injectors with
> > a Gen 6 Accel Batch fire DFI (015013)?
> >
> >
> > Mr. Gasket is currently claiming that this DFI will
> > not drive 8 low impedance injectors.
> > http://www.mrgasket.com/maildirect/helpdesk/problemdetail.asp?
> > ID=46895&TicketID=46895
> >
> > However, there are 3 reasons that I'm not 100%
> > convinced it won't work:
> >
> > 1)
> > Before the introduction of the Gen 7 DFI and the
> > Variable Injector Controller, Mr. Gasket used to claim
> > that the Gen 6 Batch fire DFI would support 8 low
> > impedance injectors.  An article about the Gen 6 was
> > printed in the Jan 1998 issue of High Tech Performance
> > magazine.
> > It said "The deficiency of most factory ECU's was also
> > corrected by the employment of four peak-and-hold
> > drivers in lieu of the customary two saturated drivers
> > that most OE management systems incorporate.  This
> > allowed the DFI the ability to control low-resistance
> > high-flow injectors, enabling the fuel system to
> > support huge hp numbers."
> > Mr. Gasket was listed as the source of this article.
> > I asked Mr. Gasket about this in March 2000, and they
> > emailed me and said "Sir, The article is incorrect".
> > However, they still keep a copy of this article on
> > their website today.  The quote is on page 15 of 34:
> > http://www.mrgasket.com/pdf/DFI.pdf
> >
> > 2)
> > The EMIC manual lists the typical current requirement
> > for a low impedance injector, and it's very close to
> > meeting the specifications of the drivers.
> > "If a peak and hold injector or driver is rated at 4/1
> > amps that translates as 4 amps to open the injector
> > and 1 amp to keep it opened."  Then it says "A
> > standard 015013 ECU incorporates 4 4/1 drivers"
> > page 15 of http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/pdf/EMIC.pdf
> > Then they show a graph of a current vs. time for a low
> > impedance injector.  It peaks at approx 2.5 amps, then
> > holds at approx 0.5 amps.
> > See figure 1.15 on page 14 of
> > http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/pdf/EMIC.pdf
> > Using 2 injectors with one driver would then require a
> > 5 amp peak, and 1 amp to hold.  Would this be possible
> > with a 4 amp peak, 1 amp hold driver?
> >
> > 3)
> > Why would Accel choose to install 4 expensive
> > peak-and-hold injector drivers instead of 2 cheap
> > saturated drivers like the OEM's typically did?
> >
> >
> > -Rob
> >
>Rob, the way it was explained to me was that you "could" run 8 low-u
>injectors off a
>015013 ECU, but it wouldn't work reliably, or long.  I asked one of the guys
>who works
>at DFI, in Wixom, MI.  It was more so that the drag racer could do it and
>use the cheaper
>non-SEFI box for short periods that they used the 4 peak/hold drivers.
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:41:48 +0200
From: Gerard 
>To: "diy_efi at diy-efi.org" 
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford cam position sensor...
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>Hi!
>
>Can anyone provide me with information on the Ford cam position sensor
>(part number DU-47 or Napa number ECHCSS405)?
>
>I am still looking for a nice compact cam angle sensor to replace my
>distributor and this recently caught my eye. I am not familiar with
>Fords so I thought someone here might know about this sensor. I am
>specifically looking for photos of the connector and the underside of
>the sensor (where the cam drive input goes or where a windowed wheel
>must pass).
>
>I'm also curious about the operation of this unit and what items it will
>need (eg. a wheel with a reference window or something like that). I
>don't know whether it contains a hall sensor and an opening for a
>windowed wheel or whether it is directly driven. Any help welcome. :)
>
>Thanks.
>
>G.
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:53:49 -0800
From: Phil Hunter 
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Low cost 2-axis accelerometer
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>The Dec. '02 issue of Nuts-N-Volts magazine has an article on a 2 axis
>accelerometer from http://www.memsic.com, price is in the $10-15 range.
>Outputs are either a digital PWM or analog voltage depending on model,
>most seem to be either +/- 2 or 10G's. Most are surface mount, but the
>"GW" suffix parts are 14 pin DIPs.
>
>The technology they are using is interesting, details on their web site,
>I wouldn't think it would be suitable for automotive environments, but
>they mention using it for air-bags.
>
>Obvious use for DIYers is data logging and correlating tuning w/
>acceleration and horsepower. Not exactly related to this list, but one
>app. note suggests using it for a burglar alarm.
>
>Frequency response rolls off about 30Hz, but they have an app. note on
>how to get beyond 160Hz, makes me wonder if there might be some way to
>use it to monitor an engine, detecting a misfire perhaps? Getting a
>"signature" for later comparison?
>
>The article states the 2125GW is identical to Analog Devices ADXL202.
>
>rgds,
>philh
>(digest)
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 4
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:25:06 -0600
From: bcroe at juno.com
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Running extra injectors off a stock ecu
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>Eric,
>
>The rate you add or remove energy from a magnetic circuit
>depends on the applied voltage.  You opened it with 14 volts.
>Letting the current kick into a 1N4004 will only give .7 volts,
>so the rate of decay will be a dozen or so times slower.  The
>release time will therefore be slow.
>
>There are other losses, like the coil resistance, which help the
>decay.  Low resistance peak & hold injectors need the high
>voltage kickback the most.
>
>Letting it kick into maybe a large 40 volt Zener across the
>transistor (or equivalent circuit) will speed the magnetic
>collapse, before it can close.
>
>Bruce Roe
>
>On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:23:52 -0500 "Eric.Fahlgren"
> writes:
> > Bruce,
> >
> > Ok, time for me to get some education.
> >
> > Is this because there is a reverse voltage ring on the injector
> > coil?  Would this be made better by a zener to ground?  Would the
> > best solution be to have a pair of signals, open and close, which
> > control two transistors one for each of the modes?
>
> > Eric
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 5
From: "Stephen M Andersen" 
>To: 
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:35:37 -0500
>Subject: [Diy_efi] EGORtech products
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>Have any of you guys ever ordered/purchased anything
>from the "esteemed" Mr Garfield Willis?
>
>Not trying to start a flame war here.  If anyone has
>purchased anything from him or EGORtech, please
>contact me offline at:
>
>steve.andersen at dol.net
>
>Thanks,
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 6
From: "Aaron" 
>To: 
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:31:36 -0600
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Spark Table
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C29A41.CF680E10
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Hello all,=20
>
>I am new to the list and was wondering if I could ask something of your =
>collective experience and intelligence. I recently purchased a FAST =
>(formerly Speedpro) computer with the Wide band O2. I currently have my =
>spark table set to 16d at idle and linearly increasing to 34d at 3000 =
>(and up). 34d is where the car made max power on the dyno. I have the =
>spark set flat in this fashion at all kPa levels and was wondering if I =
>could have some pointers on what else to do. I heard that at lower kPas =
>and higher RPMs you can run more spark advance safely to improve =
>throttle response. I have been looking at GM spark tables, but they only =
>go to 3600rpm and for some reason are at only 20d at the highest RPMs =
>and kPas. I think I am reading them incorrectly.=20
>
>Anyway, to make a long post short, I am looking for a "standard" =
>performance spark table for a GM smallblock to use as a starting point =
>for future tuning. Any help would be appreciated.=20
>
>Also, are there any Speedpro guys in the Chicagoland area that could =
>give me some pointers as to the rest of my calibration?
>
>Thank you,
>-Aaron
>'90 Caprice 9C1 12.73 @ 105.75 1.7 60'
>
>------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C29A41.CF680E10
>Content-Type: text/html;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
>Hello all,
>
>I am new to the list and was wondering = if I could=20 ask something of 
>your collective experience and intelligence. I recently = purchased a FAST 
>(formerly Speedpro) computer with the Wide band O2. I = currently=20 have 
>my spark table set to 16d at idle and linearly increasing to = 34d at=20 
>3000 (and up). 34d is where the car made max power on the dyno. I = have 
>the=20 spark set flat in this fashion at all kPa levels and was wondering 
>if I = could=20 have some pointers on what else to do. I heard that at 
>lower kPas and = higher=20 RPMs you can run more spark advance safely to 
>improve throttle response. = I have=20 been looking at GM spark tables, 
>but they only go to 3600rpm and for = some reason=20 are at only 20d at 
>the highest RPMs and kPas. I think I am reading them=20 incorrectly.
>
>Anyway, to make a long post short, I am = looking for=20 a "standard" 
>performance spark table for a GM smallblock to use as a = starting=20 
>point for future tuning. Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Also, are there any Speedpro guys in = the=20 Chicagoland area that could 
>give me some pointers as to the rest of my=20 calibration?
>
>Thank you,
>-Aaron
>'90 Caprice 9C1 12.73 @ 105.75 1.7=20 60'
>
>------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C29A41.CF680E10--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 21:36:16 -0500
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
From: Barry 
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Low cost 2-axis accelerometer
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>I use a unit by Crossbow for tuning purposes - cost a bundle more, though
>($105, IIRC)!  Definitely gives some numbers to play with regarding 'real'
>acceleration vs. 'seat of the pants'.  Spikes in accel can make the vehicle
>*feel* faster, but the area under the curve plotted vs time gives the true
>picture.  Dunno about monitoring an actual engine with one, but I recall an
>article awhile back about one used on the belt tensioner to pick up knock -
>apparently the crankshaft gets a noticeable 'kick' from a knock event.
>
>Barry
>
>At 01:53 PM 12/2/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >The Dec. '02 issue of Nuts-N-Volts magazine has an article on a 2 axis
> >accelerometer from http://www.memsic.com, price is in the $10-15 range.
> >Outputs are either a digital PWM or analog voltage depending on model,
> >most seem to be either +/- 2 or 10G's. Most are surface mount, but the
> >"GW" suffix parts are 14 pin DIPs.
> >
> >The technology they are using is interesting, details on their web site,
> >I wouldn't think it would be suitable for automotive environments, but
> >they mention using it for air-bags.
> >
> >Obvious use for DIYers is data logging and correlating tuning w/
> >acceleration and horsepower. Not exactly related to this list, but one
> >app. note suggests using it for a burglar alarm.
> >
> >Frequency response rolls off about 30Hz, but they have an app. note on
> >how to get beyond 160Hz, makes me wonder if there might be some way to
> >use it to monitor an engine, detecting a misfire perhaps? Getting a
> >"signature" for later comparison?
> >
> >The article states the 2125GW is identical to Analog Devices ADXL202.
> >
> >rgds,
> >philh
> >(digest)
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:52:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Karl Griffin 
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: [Diy_efi] camshaft position sensor location
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>Please help!  I'm searching in vain for the location
>of the CMP on my 1999 GMC Sierra 1500.  Motor is a
>V-8, 4.8L.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 9
From: "Aaron" 
>To: 
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:01:08 -0600
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Bouncing Map readings
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C29A4E.519EBF80
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>What could be the cause of my MAP sensor reading between 96 and 103 =
>(bouncing up and down) at WOT? Maybe it is picking up induction pulses =
>from the runners? I have it piped to a port in the back of my intake =
>manifold.
>
>Thanks,
>-Aaron
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C29A4E.519EBF80
>Content-Type: text/html;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
>What could be the cause of my MAP = sensor reading=20 between 96 and 103 
>(bouncing up and down) at WOT? Maybe it is picking up = induction pulses 
>from the runners? I have it piped to a port in the back = of my=20 intake 
>manifold.
>
>Thanks,
>-Aaron
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C29A4E.519EBF80--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:35:58
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
From: Mike 
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Bouncing Map readings
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>classic pneumatic type oscillations in your plenum I woudl have thought,
>its not as much as I have heard about - so consider yourself lucky ;)
>
>If you want to smooth it out a bit run a static column fromt he plenum
>to your map sensor through a small dia pipe or a carefully chosen cap
>across the map sensor output - I prefer the former instead of loading
>the map electrical output and still have good transient response,
>
>rgds
>
>mike
>
>
>At 10:01 PM 2/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >What could be the cause of my MAP sensor reading between 96 and 103
>(bouncing up and down) at WOT? Maybe it is picking up induction pulses from
>the runners? I have it piped to a port in the back of my intake manifold.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >-Aaron
> >
> >Attachment Converted: "C:\MAIL\INCOMING\Diy_efiB"
> >
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 11
From: "mike beebe" 
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Cc: karlgriffin at yahoo.com
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] camshaft position sensor location
>Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 05:12:41 +0000
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>It is at the back of the motor where the distributor would be on the old
>small blocks. I have a picture of it on my webpage at
>Http://www.mywebpages.comcast.net/beebe_mike
>I hope this helps
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Karl Griffin 
> >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >Subject: [Diy_efi] camshaft position sensor location
> >Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:52:26 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Please help!  I'm searching in vain for the location
> >of the CMP on my 1999 GMC Sierra 1500.  Motor is a
> >V-8, 4.8L.  Any help is greatly appreciated
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 12
From: "Jon Prevost" 
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
>Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:10:24 -0500
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
> > For whatever reason, Jon wanted to detect detonation acoustically, so
> > I was steering him away from his initial choice of a Cavalier(?) knock
> > sensor as counter-productive. I suspect that after he reads the URLs,
> > he'll abandon the acoustic approach altogether.
>
>Consider it abandoned for our project. I just found out that we have the
>tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now. Well that and
>finals.
>If I was going to go with the acoustic method I would have had to setup a
>lot of dry experiments and I wasn't ready to sit down, start the motor and
>record what happens to the acoustics while I "unhook" a timing chain, or cut
>fuel, etc. Too many issues to deal with. I still think it would be a fun
>project to record the general frequency range of detonation and see if there
>are any traights apparently obvious.
>Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.
>, Jon
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 13
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 04:28:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Andris Skulte 
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>This isn't accoustic, but on page 455 of Heywood's Internal Combustion
>Engine Fundamentals, they run a bandpass filter on their cylinder pressure
>transducer for the first transverse mode of gas vibration in the cylinder
>(in 3 to 10 kHz range, depending on bore and geometry). later on page 460,
>he mentiones immediately after the pressure spike, they see pressure
>oscillation at the 6 to 8 kHz range... ... page 461: "The frequency of
>pressure oscillations (in 5 to 10 kHz range) decreases with time as the
>initially finite amplitude supersonic pressure waves decal to small
>amplitude sound waves.
>
>Andris/Z28tt
>
>On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Jon Prevost wrote:
>
> > > For whatever reason, Jon wanted to detect detonation acoustically, so
> > > I was steering him away from his initial choice of a Cavalier(?) knock
> > > sensor as counter-productive. I suspect that after he reads the URLs,
> > > he'll abandon the acoustic approach altogether.
> >
> > Consider it abandoned for our project. I just found out that we have the
> > tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now. Well that and
> > finals.
> > If I was going to go with the acoustic method I would have had to setup a
> > lot of dry experiments and I wasn't ready to sit down, start the motor and
> > record what happens to the acoustics while I "unhook" a timing chain, 
> or cut
> > fuel, etc. Too many issues to deal with. I still think it would be a fun
> > project to record the general frequency range of detonation and see if 
> there
> > are any traights apparently obvious.
> > Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.
> > , Jon
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
>
>------------------
>Andris Skulte
>Skulte Performance Designs
>http://www.skulte.com
>Z28tt-89 IROC T56 DFI Twin Turbo
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 14
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
>Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 08:55:32 -0500
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>At 4:10 AM 11/19/02, Jon Prevost wrote:
>
>  I just found out that we have the
> >tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now.
>
> >Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.
>
> >, Jon
> >
>Could you share a bit about just WHAT tools you have for ion sensing??
>
>Thanks,
>
>Greg
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 15
From: "Derek" 
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:26:35 -0800
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>Yes, PLEASE share. I'd love to have a way of determining PPP (Peak Pressure
>Point).
>
> >  I just found out that we have the
> > >tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now.
> >
> > >Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.
> >
> > >, Jon
> > >
> > Could you share a bit about just WHAT tools you have for ion sensing??
>
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>End of Diy_efi Digest



Larry Ing
Tel.  916-971-9941
FAX 916-971-9945
PGP on request

Larry Ing
Tel.  916-971-9941
FAX 916-971-9945
PGP on request



_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


From Aaron at lightfirst.com  Wed Dec  4 03:14:20 2002
From: Aaron at lightfirst.com (Aaron)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 00:14:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Bouncing Map
Message-ID: 

I understand now. Will the smaller tube, while more resistant to
oscillations, be less sensitive to small changes in the manifold vacuum? In
other words, will drivability be sacrified in return for a stable reading at
WOT?

-Aaron

Mike said:

> What I mean is use a longer smaller pipe that is less likely to
> allow internal oscilations, either due to pulsations from plenum
> or due to expansion/contraction of the pipe - or have a larger
> pipe but a small hole where it connects to plenum,
> mike


Aaron said:

> By static column you just mean replace the vacuum hose with a piece of
> pipe? I am a little confused by this.
> Thanks again,
> -Aaron



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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec  4 03:28:25 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 00:28:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Bouncing Map
Message-ID: 

I suppose it all depends on the tube size and length, you are not
looking for microsecond instantaneous response and the sensitivity
will not change. ie. We have done nothing to change sensor resolution.

A lot of methods of reducing oscillations is to use a restrictor,
such as in bleed valves for turbos - though this is more to allow
a peak pressure before the waste gate actuates.

If it was me I'd probably keep the same tube size you have currently
but maybe just add a restrictor where the tube meets the plenum,
try different sizes from say 0.5mm and up - simple cheap experiment,

rgds

mike


At 09:20 PM 3/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>I understand now. Will the smaller tube, while more resistant to
>oscillations, be less sensitive to small changes in the manifold vacuum? In
>other words, will drivability be sacrified in return for a stable reading at
>WOT?
>
>-Aaron
>
>Mike said:
>
>> What I mean is use a longer smaller pipe that is less likely to
>> allow internal oscilations, either due to pulsations from plenum
>> or due to expansion/contraction of the pipe - or have a larger
>> pipe but a small hole where it connects to plenum,
>> mike
>
>
>Aaron said:
>
>> By static column you just mean replace the vacuum hose with a piece of
>> pipe? I am a little confused by this.
>> Thanks again,
>> -Aaron
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
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>
>

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From twsharpe at mtco.com  Wed Dec  4 03:38:31 2002
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 00:38:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

You seem to be in the know.  Are those pressure surge tanks that go in the brake
lines to "modulate" pressure any good?  Their hype seems incredible.

"Amenson Scott (AC/ESC4)" wrote:

> Scott,
> Did you get any responses to your post?  If so, will you forward them to
> me...I am interested to see what their recommendations were.
>
> Now for my input...it is a very bad idea.  No, it is a very, very bad idea.
> Why???
>
> ABS systems use vehicle models and calibration settings to determine how to
> optimize the braking process in panic situations.  These models/settings are
> very specific to a particular vehicle.  Even if you can find a system from a
> vehicle which seems to be "similar" to your target vehicle (and get it
> working), things like caliper volume, GVW, shock/spring rates, CG,
> tires....will be different enough to cause bad things to happen.  These bad
> things are listed below, least to most severe (and for the most part, least
> to most likely):
>
> Rough Control/Over Brake:  The very best thing that could happen is that the
> ABS control would be rough.  In this situation the system would hold
> pressure on the wheels too long causing them to lock (over brake) and slide.
> Locked wheels do not generating the maximum amount of deceleration.  The
> degree to which this happens will influence how badly your stopping distance
> is affected.  Best case (not all that likely) is that the abs system would
> stop the car in the same distance that a semi skilled driver could achieve
> with non ABS brakes, nothing better, probably worse.  The worst case of this
> would be locking the rear wheels before the front...which would cause the
> car to oversteer and spin while turning (cool if you are a rally driver).
>
> Under brake: This is not so good.  The way ABS works is by determining the
> approximate road friction and then setting target wheel slips which optimize
> braking performance in that situation.  It does this by HOLDING or RELEASING
> the braking force that you are trying to apply to the calipers.  If this
> slip target is calculated to be lower than what is actually possible...you
> will not decelerate as well as you could because the system limits the
> pressure going to the wheels.  Stopping distance increases and you run into
> whatever it is that you are trying to avoid.  A hard pedal is the worst case
> of under braking.
>
> Hard Pedal:  The name explains the situation...you press on the pedal and it
> is hard, very hard.  This occurs when the ABS system thinks that the tires
> are rotating much slower (slipping) than what they should be and tries to
> decrees the slipping by blocking most/all pressure from going to the brakes.
> This situation is quite scary and very dangerous.  There is minimal if any
> braking force and thus no deceleration...that is until you run into whatever
> is in front of you.
>
> Changing only a master cylinder or upgrading calipers without adding and
> properly tuning a proportioning valve will usually negatively affect braking
> performance/balance.  Adding a control system not specifically setup for a
> vehicle will earn you an Honorable Mention in the Darwin Awards.  If you
> want to brake better, go to a performance driving school and learn how to
> threshold brake.
>
> How do I know???  Look at my email address.
>
> More technical information concerning the operation of ABS systems was
> posted by one of my colleagues at the following link:
> http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/028643.html
>
> Please do not try it,
>
> Scott S. Amenson
> AC/ESC4 (ESP, ABS, TCS Development)
> > Robert Bosch Corporation
> scott.amenson at us.bosch.com
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:51:36 -0500
> From: "Scott F. Williams" 
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
> Hey, I realize that this is off topic, but... Is anyone out there
> knowledgeable about anti-lock braking systems? I'm going to attempt a
> retrofit to an old car of mine and need to figure out some of the logistics
> before hand. Would somebody be so kind as to email me off list?
>
> Thanks,
>
> P.S. If there's a listserv or forum out there dedicated to brake
> development, I'd love to know about it...
> --
> Scott F. Williams
> NJ Scirocco nut
> '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
> Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
> Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
> ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From sravet at arm.com  Wed Dec  4 03:56:43 2002
From: sravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 00:56:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] veggie van
Message-ID: 

Has anyone else heard of this?  Apparently it's making the rounds on
Discovery, CNN, etc.  There are people out there running their diesel
vehicles on sunflower oil, used french fry oil from McDonalds, etc. 
Does this really work reliably in the long run?

http://www.veggievan.com is one of the many sites that talk about this.

--steve

-- 
Steve Ravet
steve.ravet at arm.com
ARM,Inc.
www.arm.com

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec  4 04:17:29 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 01:17:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] veggie van
Message-ID: 

yep, chap here in the Perth hills has been doing it for over
10 years, has his own still as well I believe, costs him about
7c per litre all said and done - and thats in A$ as well :-)

Cant imagine running my 3L turbo six at 10.5psi boost on it
though - maybe we are too used to paying 95c/litre for 96 oct fuel,

rgds

mike



At 10:05 PM 3/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Has anyone else heard of this?  Apparently it's making the rounds on
>Discovery, CNN, etc.  There are people out there running their diesel
>vehicles on sunflower oil, used french fry oil from McDonalds, etc. 
>Does this really work reliably in the long run?
>
>http://www.veggievan.com is one of the many sites that talk about this.
>
>--steve
>
>-- 
>Steve Ravet
>steve.ravet at arm.com
>ARM,Inc.
>www.arm.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Wed Dec  4 05:13:13 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 02:13:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] veggie van
Message-ID: 


yeah biodiesel has 10x more lubricity then regular deisel fuel. if you do a 
bit of searching youll find out about fossil fuels biggest kept secret.

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From axel_rietschin at compuserve.com  Wed Dec  4 12:18:14 2002
From: axel_rietschin at compuserve.com (Axel Rietschin)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 09:18:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Bouncing Map
Message-ID: 

From: "Mike" 
> try different sizes from say 0.5mm and up - simple cheap experiment,

0.7m works fine, in my experience...

--Axel


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From kdoody at uavenginesltd.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 13:03:59 2002
From: kdoody at uavenginesltd.co.uk (Karl Doody)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 10:03:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] veggie van
Message-ID: 

Here in the UK they've put a restriction on how much you can buy from
the shops, they say that up to 35% of diesel car and truck owners in the
north and Wales were at sometime running on cooking oil.
They have just done a car show on the TV with an old Volvo diesel where
they drained the fuel tank and filled it with sunflower oil and started
it right back up again and the thing ran just fine with no modifications
what a shock to the system that was for all those diesel owner around
the UK. AND IT'S TAX FREE FUEL.

Karl.


-----Original Message-----
From: steve ravet [mailto:sravet at arm.com]
Sent: 04 December 2002 04:05
To: diy_efi
Subject: [Diy_efi] veggie van


Has anyone else heard of this?  Apparently it's making the rounds on
Discovery, CNN, etc.  There are people out there running their diesel
vehicles on sunflower oil, used french fry oil from McDonalds, etc.=20
Does this really work reliably in the long run?

http://www.veggievan.com is one of the many sites that talk about this.

--steve

--=20
Steve Ravet
steve.ravet at arm.com
ARM,Inc.
www.arm.com

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This e-mail message has been sent by UAV Engines Ltd.=20
and is for the use of the intended recipients only.
The message may contain information that is privileged or confidential.
If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any us=
e,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited,
and you are requested to delete the e-mail and any attachments
and notify the sender immediately.

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From jhartwig at midsouth.rr.com  Wed Dec  4 14:23:04 2002
From: jhartwig at midsouth.rr.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen_Hartwig?=)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 11:23:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] veggie van
Message-ID: 

> Has anyone else heard of this?  Apparently it's making the rounds on
> Discovery, CNN, etc.  There are people out there running their diesel
> vehicles on sunflower oil, used french fry oil from McDonalds, etc.
> Does this really work reliably in the long run?
>
> http://www.veggievan.com is one of the many sites that talk about this.


http://www.greasel.com/

There are two alternatives: 1) run filtered waste or fresh cooking oil, or
2) process the oil to formulate biodiesel.  Biodiesel requires more work, of
course.  Both fuels reduce emissions significantly and lubricate the
injection pump at a slight loss of mileage.  So far, reliability appears to
be good, provided you do not allow the oil to gel in low temperatures.  See
greasel web site for a solution to that problem.

This stuff works fine in turbocharged diesels.  14+ psi is not a problem.

The exhaust smells of french fries or chinese food, depending on where you
source the oil.

I'm preparing to buy and install the Greasel kit in my father's '87 300D
Mercedes.  I, personally, would love to run a Dodge Cummins 6 speed with
vegetable oil, and crank up the boost. :)

jurgen



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From true at ItsYourDomain.com  Wed Dec  4 15:36:57 2002
From: true at ItsYourDomain.com (Nick Starai)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 12:36:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Fuel pump sizing?
Message-ID: 


Lynden sums up the fuel pump sizing in his previous post. I just wanted to
add that an inline with no pump in the tank will work fine. Near the
bottom of the tank is good, but obviously you'll need a filter on the
end of the pickup tube :)

Nick Starai

On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Merchant, Adnan wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've looked through the archives but couldn't find how I would go about
> sizing a fuel pump for an EFI application.
>
> The engine is a carb conversion, which means the fuel tank won't accommodate
> a pump.   Would an external in-line pump pull from a tube going in from the
> top of the tank or would I need a pre-pump like some cars have?   Does it
> make sense to draw fuel from the bottom of the tank, such as from the drain
> plug?   I realize that sediments would be an issue but other than that is
> there any reason one shouldn't?
>
> The engine is a 3-liter inline six, normally aspirated, with 19lb/hr
> injectors.   I'd guess it will produce around 175 hp and 200 lb-ft of
> torque.   What lb/hr pump should I use and is there a specific unit you'd
> recommend?   I've heard that an excessive flow rate could cause fuel boiling
> and separation.
>
> Thanks, as usual, for your help.
>
> Regards,
> Adnan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From dave_nemergut at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  4 18:15:54 2002
From: dave_nemergut at yahoo.com (dave_nemergut at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 15:15:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] veggie van
Message-ID: 

Steve,

check out http://www.biodiesel.org/

it has some interesting info, including an EPA report
on the emissions from biodiesel fuel.

--- steve ravet  wrote:
> Has anyone else heard of this?  Apparently it's
> making the rounds on
> Discovery, CNN, etc.  There are people out there
> running their diesel
> vehicles on sunflower oil, used french fry oil from
> McDonalds, etc. 
> Does this really work reliably in the long run?
> 
> http://www.veggievan.com is one of the many sites
> that talk about this.
> 
> --steve
> 
> -- 
> Steve Ravet
> steve.ravet at arm.com
> ARM,Inc.
> www.arm.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From compsi at att.net  Wed Dec  4 19:10:56 2002
From: compsi at att.net (Morton Sherry)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 16:10:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] PDAs as a handheld DSO scope?
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C29A23.396D9150
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A module and Handspring visor is being offered as a handheld scope meter =
for automotive disganostics.

Would like some feeback from some-one who has used this 'scope' before I =
purchase one.

Thanks

Morton


------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C29A23.396D9150
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









A module and Handspring visor is being =
offered as a=20
handheld scope meter for automotive disganostics.


 


Would like some feeback from some-one =
who has used=20
this 'scope' before I purchase one.


 


Thanks


 


Morton


 


 


------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C29A23.396D9150--


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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Wed Dec  4 19:15:36 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 16:15:36 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] PDAs as a handheld DSO scope?
Message-ID: 


hmm i know that mac tools makes a nice pda based scope. its not lab quality 
but good enough for automobile repair. 

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From eric.deslauriers at oracle.com  Wed Dec  4 19:35:35 2002
From: eric.deslauriers at oracle.com (Eric Deslauriers)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 16:35:35 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] PDAs as a handheld DSO scope?
Message-ID: 

Or use this and a laptop...

  http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Prac/winscope.htm

Eric D

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Djfreggens at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 11:20 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] PDAs as a handheld DSO scope?



hmm i know that mac tools makes a nice pda based scope. its not lab
quality
but good enough for automobile repair.

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From oneslowalltrac at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  4 20:12:41 2002
From: oneslowalltrac at yahoo.com (Scott Campbell)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 17:12:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] PDAs as a handheld DSO scope?
Message-ID: 

Morton,

I assume this is what you are referring to: 
http://www.aeswave.com/Palm/CJMax/#contents?

I don't have any experience with it, but the specs are pretty modest to say the
least.

For similar money (Visor and Springboard) you could pick up a "real" scope...
maybe something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1921583860

Just my $0.02USD,

Scott.

--- Morton Sherry  wrote:
> A module and Handspring visor is being offered as a handheld scope meter for
> automotive disganostics.
> 
> Would like some feeback from some-one who has used this 'scope' before I
> purchase one.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Morton
> 
> 


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From Scott.Amenson at us.bosch.com  Wed Dec  4 21:27:45 2002
From: Scott.Amenson at us.bosch.com (Amenson Scott   (AC/ESC4))
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 18:27:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

Tom,
Not sure exactly what you are referring to???  Rear brake bias adjusting
valves?  There are accumulators (hydraulic capacitors) in OEM systems that
soften pedal feedback??  Where did you see this device?
Scott

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 21:43:00 -0600
From: Tom Sharpe 
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

You seem to be in the know.  Are those pressure surge tanks that go in the
brake
lines to "modulate" pressure any good?  Their hype seems incredible.

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From langwadt at ieee.org  Wed Dec  4 21:39:42 2002
From: langwadt at ieee.org (Lasse Langwadt Christensen)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 18:39:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] veggie van
Message-ID: 

steve ravet wrote:
> Has anyone else heard of this?  Apparently it's making the rounds on
> Discovery, CNN, etc.  There are people out there running their diesel
> vehicles on sunflower oil, used french fry oil from McDonalds, etc. 
> Does this really work reliably in the long run?
> 
> http://www.veggievan.com is one of the many sites that talk about this.
> 
> --steve
> 

Not too long ago the was a show on Nationa geographic (I think) about 
the people of Bougainville, after seven years of war and no import of 
anything, they were still driving around in the Toyota pickups and using 
generators left by a mining company, running on coconut oil ...

I wonder how long a modern diesel with its +20000psi pump would last?

-Lasse



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From pedward at apsoft.com  Wed Dec  4 21:40:59 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 18:40:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

I wonder if he's referring to those delay valves used to delay the onset of
rear brakes.  The stated purpose is to prevent rear brake lockup by preventing
the high pressure surge when someone stomps the pedal in an emergency.

Those devices are not neccessary if you have properly biased your brakes.
That is the whole purpose of a bias valve, it limits pressure to the rear
brakes so that the front brakes lockup first.

--Perry

On Wed, Dec 04, 2002 at 04:33:00PM -0500, Amenson Scott   (AC/ESC4) wrote:
> Tom,
> Not sure exactly what you are referring to???  Rear brake bias adjusting
> valves?  There are accumulators (hydraulic capacitors) in OEM systems that
> soften pedal feedback??  Where did you see this device?
> Scott
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 21:43:00 -0600
> From: Tom Sharpe 
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> You seem to be in the know.  Are those pressure surge tanks that go in the
> brake
> lines to "modulate" pressure any good?  Their hype seems incredible.
> 

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.
                             -- Benjamin Franklin

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From mos at sydney.net  Thu Dec  5 02:13:17 2002
From: mos at sydney.net (Mos)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:13:17 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

(This is off topic, but nonetheless interesting).

I would've thought the front brakes are more prone to locking up first
upon a heavy stomp, as they have more braking power to start with, and the
front wheels are unloaded relative to when the car is actually slowing
down rapidly.

What does properly biased mean? The correct bias (in reference to the
force a tyre can hold) changes with deceleration magnitude, does it not?
If you bias for maximal deceleration, then the fronts will be overbiased
in slower deceleration, right? (And wont help you with stomping at all).

Mos.

-- 
84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Perry Harrington wrote:

> I wonder if he's referring to those delay valves used to delay the onset of
> rear brakes.  The stated purpose is to prevent rear brake lockup by preventing
> the high pressure surge when someone stomps the pedal in an emergency.
>
> Those devices are not neccessary if you have properly biased your brakes.
> That is the whole purpose of a bias valve, it limits pressure to the rear
> brakes so that the front brakes lockup first.


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From jake at infctd.net  Thu Dec  5 02:32:48 2002
From: jake at infctd.net (john)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:32:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mos" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...


> I would've thought the front brakes are more prone to locking up first
> upon a heavy stomp, as they have more braking power to start with, and the
> front wheels are unloaded relative to when the car is actually slowing
> down rapidly.

actually, the opposite is true ..

j


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From sfwilliams at comcast.net  Thu Dec  5 02:38:00 2002
From: sfwilliams at comcast.net (Scott F. Williams)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:38:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

Mos. wrote:
> I would've thought the front brakes are more prone to locking up first
> upon a heavy stomp, as they have more braking power to start with, and the
> front wheels are unloaded relative to when the car is actually slowing
> down rapidly.

Shocking the tire contact patches by stomping on the brake pedal extremely
abruptly makes it possible to lock up the front tires first -easily so in
slippery conditions. However, under most circumstances the rear tires are
the unloaded ones during rapid decelleration. The weight transfers to the
front which dives towards the ground. Front grip is often *increased* in
this scenario. Meanwhile, the weight comes off the rear end which lifts
skyward. Traction is reduced and the rear tires tend to lock first.

> What does properly biased mean? The correct bias (in reference to the
> force a tyre can hold) changes with deceleration magnitude, does it not?
> If you bias for maximal deceleration, then the fronts will be overbiased
> in slower deceleration, right? (And wont help you with stomping at all).

"Proper" bias necessitates mechanically setting the front brakes to perform
the majority of the braking force given the inevitable weight transfer. With
many environmental and mechanical variables considered, this bias is set to
create the desired (not necessarily best) stopping and handling performance.
This is a subjective matter often decided more by lawyers and accountants
than driving enthusiasts.

Meanwhile, optimal braking is never achieved by violently stomping on the
brakes. A smooth modulation of force is best -even when ABS is there to bale
one out electronically.
--
Scott F. Williams
NJ Scirocco nut
'99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."



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From mos at sydney.net  Thu Dec  5 02:45:44 2002
From: mos at sydney.net (Mos)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:45:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Scott F. Williams wrote:

> Mos. wrote:
> > I would've thought the front brakes are more prone to locking up first
> > upon a heavy stomp, as they have more braking power to start with, and the
> > front wheels are unloaded relative to when the car is actually slowing
> > down rapidly.
>
> Shocking the tire contact patches by stomping on the brake pedal extremely
> abruptly makes it possible to lock up the front tires first -easily so in
> slippery conditions. However, under most circumstances the rear tires are
> the unloaded ones during rapid decelleration. The weight transfers to the
> front which dives towards the ground. Front grip is often *increased* in
> this scenario. Meanwhile, the weight comes off the rear end which lifts
> skyward. Traction is reduced and the rear tires tend to lock first.

I understand the weight shift - what I was describing was the initial
shock, before the weight transfer - not continued heavy deceleration - I
guess I worded it poorly.

> "Proper" bias necessitates mechanically setting the front brakes to perform
> the majority of the braking force given the inevitable weight transfer. With
> many environmental and mechanical variables considered, this bias is set to
> create the desired (not necessarily best) stopping and handling performance.
> This is a subjective matter often decided more by lawyers and accountants
> than driving enthusiasts.

Oh great.... :)

> Meanwhile, optimal braking is never achieved by violently stomping on the
> brakes. A smooth modulation of force is best -even when ABS is there to bale
> one out electronically.

Agree completely - however it appears most ppl tend to stomp violently
during an emergency braking situation.

Mos.

-- 
84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.



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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  5 02:47:41 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:47:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

--- Mos  wrote:

> I would've thought the front brakes are more prone
> to locking up first
> upon a heavy stomp, as they have more braking power
> to start with, and the
> front wheels are unloaded relative to when the car
> is actually slowing down rapidly.

Actually, that is exactly why the rears are more prone
to locking than the fronts.  With less loading, they
have a much lower friction coefficient with the
roadway.  That coefficient is not linear in proportion
to load; it is exponential.

However, it's far more important to maintain control
with the front wheels, since they steer the vehicle;
thus single-axle ABS is almost exclusively on the
front axle.

> What does properly biased mean? The correct bias (in
> reference to the
> force a tyre can hold) changes with deceleration
> magnitude, does it not?
> If you bias for maximal deceleration, then the
> fronts will be overbiased
> in slower deceleration, right? (And wont help you
> with stomping at all).

A much bigger issue (since cars have a fairly low CG
in reference to their wheelbase) is physical load
changes.  This is especially true in vehicles like
pickup trucks.

Volkswagen had an ingenious solution for their
Transporter in the 60s and 70s...  They had a
tiltmeter in the form of a ball-bearing check valve. 
the harder one hit the brakes, or the more the rear
lifted in a stop, the less it would bias the rear
brakes.  As long as the system had the fluid changed
yearly, it worked incredibly well.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From jake at infctd.net  Thu Dec  5 02:54:43 2002
From: jake at infctd.net (john)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 23:54:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

i retract that .. (i should read more carefully)

of course once weight transfer occurs the wheels have more purchase on the
road, than during intial bite. i read it as the front wheels becoming
unloaded during braking.

my apologies mos

j


----- Original Message -----
From: "john" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mos" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 1:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
>
>
> > I would've thought the front brakes are more prone to locking up first
> > upon a heavy stomp, as they have more braking power to start with, and
the
> > front wheels are unloaded relative to when the car is actually slowing
> > down rapidly.
>
> actually, the opposite is true ..
>
> j
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From mos at sydney.net  Thu Dec  5 03:04:15 2002
From: mos at sydney.net (Mos)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 00:04:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Adam Wade wrote:

> --- Mos  wrote:
>
> > I would've thought the front brakes are more prone
> > to locking up first
> > upon a heavy stomp, as they have more braking power
> > to start with, and the
> > front wheels are unloaded relative to when the car
> > is actually slowing down rapidly.
>
> Actually, that is exactly why the rears are more prone
> to locking than the fronts.  With less loading, they
> have a much lower friction coefficient with the
> roadway.  That coefficient is not linear in proportion
> to load; it is exponential.

Yeah, what I was *trying* to say :) was that when you're happily puddling
along, in a well balanced car, the load on the front and rear is somewhat
equal, but the brakes are more powerful on the front - so a violent pedal
stomp in this situation results in more braking force being applied at the
front, which in turn can lock the front wheels up as the braking force can
exceed the maximal traction force. Once the weight transfers, obviously
there's more tractive force available.

So the co-efficient changes with load?
Obviously the tractive force varies with load (and coefficient) but I
didn't realise the co-efficient itself changes.
In the high school mechanics classes there was never any mention of the
co-efficient of friction changing with load - what materials does this
happen with?

Mos.

-- 
84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.



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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  5 03:46:17 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 00:46:17 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

--- Mos  wrote:

> so a violent pedal stomp in this situation results
> in more braking force being applied at the
> front, which in turn can lock the front wheels up as
> the braking force can exceed the maximal traction
> force. Once the weight transfers, obviously
> there's more tractive force available.

Weight transfer happens very quickly, but yes, the
scenario you propose can and does happen.  Rubber
brake lines actually make that much less likely, as
they act like a capacitor by expanding during the
initial moment of braking, allowing some transfer to
happen before a huge bite is transmitted.

> So the co-efficient changes with load?

Yep.  Basic physics states that with solids, the
friction changes linearly with load, the coefficient
is constant.  Tires are a different animal, and we can
all be thankful for that.  ;)  They respond in a very
non-linear manner, mainly due to the ability of rubber
to not lose material easily when exposed to shear
forces.  That means that the coefficient of friction
of a tire when loaded laterally is far in excess of
that you would get with even most other "compliant"
solids, much less regular solids (what do you think
the skidpad ratings would be for a car with wooden
tires?).

> Obviously the tractive force varies with load (and
> coefficient) but I didn't realise the co-efficient
> itself changes.

Yep.  That's how you get a non-linear response with
loaded tires.  That's why racing cars run wings.  The
drag doesn't increase linearly, so if the tractive
forces increased linearly on tires, wings would hurt
performance more than they helped.

> In the high school mechanics classes there was never
> any mention of the co-efficient of friction changing
> with load - what materials does this happen with?

I'm not aware of any other compund in regular use
beyond the alloys they are using in tires, composed
largely of natural or synthetic rubber.  It's not
exactly my fiend of expertise, but it's something I've
come across a few times in my travels.  You can bet
that the research done by tire companies is pretty
highly guarded.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From kaizen__ at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  5 03:53:48 2002
From: kaizen__ at hotmail.com (Bevan Weiss)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 00:53:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 


> > > I would've thought the front brakes are more prone
> > > to locking up first
> > > upon a heavy stomp, as they have more braking power
> > > to start with, and the
> > > front wheels are unloaded relative to when the car
> > > is actually slowing down rapidly.
> >
> > Actually, that is exactly why the rears are more prone
> > to locking than the fronts.  With less loading, they
> > have a much lower friction coefficient with the
> > roadway.  That coefficient is not linear in proportion
> > to load; it is exponential.
>
> Yeah, what I was *trying* to say :) was that when you're happily puddling
> along, in a well balanced car, the load on the front and rear is somewhat
> equal, but the brakes are more powerful on the front - so a violent pedal
> stomp in this situation results in more braking force being applied at the
> front, which in turn can lock the front wheels up as the braking force can
> exceed the maximal traction force. Once the weight transfers, obviously
> there's more tractive force available.
>
> So the co-efficient changes with load?
> Obviously the tractive force varies with load (and coefficient) but I
> didn't realise the co-efficient itself changes.
> In the high school mechanics classes there was never any mention of the
> co-efficient of friction changing with load - what materials does this
> happen with?

You are quite right, the co-efficient of friction doesn't change with load
(only static/dynamic ie non-slidding/slidding) however what does change is
the weight distribution of the car, and hence the normal (in engineering
terms) force acting downwards through the tire.  When this force decreases
the 'grip' of the tire will decrease, both because of the decrease in normal
force, and also because of the loss of surface area in contact with the road
that results from the slight decompression of the tire (again caused by
reduced force down through the tire).

The front tires have the reverse of this, they tend to be pressed down more
into the ground (hence increasing the normal force) and with this increase
in normal force the tire also gets slightly compressed, increasing the
surface area of the tire in contact with the road.

The sizing and power of brakes is of little effect, It's pretty easy to get
a tire to lock up, it only really depends on the characteristices of the
tire (ie pressure, profile, size, surface area, compound etc).  It's trying
to keep the tire from locking up that's the hard part.  I thought that this
conversation started with ABS, which simply modulates the pressure to the
brake cylinder to keep the tire from locking up (by measuring the speed of
the tire).  Trying to retrofit this into a older car is a legal
impossibility in all countries that I know of (apart from maybe some third
world ones...).  The problem is that ABS systems require very serious
testing and certification before they are allowed to be used on a road going
car, most of this testing is quite destructive and very expensive, hence
only worth while for a large production.  Putting an production line ABS
system into a new car (ie one it hasn't already been tested for) will
require this same expensive testing.  Which is not worth it at all.

PS: I'm not sure of the exact method used by the manufacturers for their ABS
systems but would imagine it's some kind of bang-bang controller, ie it
allows full brake pressure until the tires almost lock up, then bleeds the
pressure off and repeats the process.  I get this from the pulsing feeling
when heavily decelerating in most ABS fitted cars.

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From mos at sydney.net  Thu Dec  5 04:25:41 2002
From: mos at sydney.net (Mos)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 01:25:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

A guy in Qld, Australia, retrofitted almost everything (literally) from a
Japanese JZX81 Toyota Chaser into a RA23 Celica (late 70s), including the
ABS.
He used struts off a Holden Commodore I believe (IE not Chaser
struts/brakes).
The car was fully engineered, even without a "complete braking system out
of another car"... So either the engineer didn't notice, didn't care, or
it was "ok"...

I've been toying with the idea myself, and have two sets of ABS systems
but haven't gotten around to doing it...

Mos.

-- 
84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Bevan Weiss wrote:

> The sizing and power of brakes is of little effect, It's pretty easy to get
> a tire to lock up, it only really depends on the characteristices of the
> tire (ie pressure, profile, size, surface area, compound etc).  It's trying
> to keep the tire from locking up that's the hard part.  I thought that this
> conversation started with ABS, which simply modulates the pressure to the
> brake cylinder to keep the tire from locking up (by measuring the speed of
> the tire).  Trying to retrofit this into a older car is a legal
> impossibility in all countries that I know of (apart from maybe some third
> world ones...).  The problem is that ABS systems require very serious
> testing and certification before they are allowed to be used on a road going
> car, most of this testing is quite destructive and very expensive, hence
> only worth while for a large production.  Putting an production line ABS
> system into a new car (ie one it hasn't already been tested for) will
> require this same expensive testing.  Which is not worth it at all.
>
> PS: I'm not sure of the exact method used by the manufacturers for their ABS
> systems but would imagine it's some kind of bang-bang controller, ie it
> allows full brake pressure until the tires almost lock up, then bleeds the
> pressure off and repeats the process.  I get this from the pulsing feeling
> when heavily decelerating in most ABS fitted cars.


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From sendhil.s at lycos.com  Thu Dec  5 04:40:51 2002
From: sendhil.s at lycos.com (Sendhil Solai)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 01:40:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie Van :)
Message-ID: 

Hello Everyone!

As for the veggie van :) posting...yes you can run your diesel engines on this fuel...also known as Bio Diesel. Search on www.google.com for the same and you will get tons of info. on how to make some of your own!
There is also research going on at where i am working about commercial applications of this fuel.
>From what i have studied about it...it does promise all the goodies that tests have shown. I also intend to buy myself a diesel engine to test firsthand the specs. of this fuel :) 

Stay well.
Sendhil.

P.s: I am new to this wonderfull list :) ...and this is my first post! For my background...i experiment a lot with techniques to improve the perfomance of IC engines :) and i love to design new gadgets and methods to make things easier for me! Presently i am doing R&D as a scientist on Hybrid EV's.


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From klox at juno.com  Thu Dec  5 06:01:04 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 03:01:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

On a low friction surface, such as wet pavement, less of the car's weight
"shifts forward" during a hard stop, perhaps 60/40, so the brakes have to
be biased no more than that, so that the rear brakes won't lock up. 
However, on a high friction surface, you can stop harder, but that causes
more of a weight shift, so that the brakes could be more biased, say
70/30.  But if you bias the brakes 70/30, the car has more likelihood of
locking the rear brakes when stopping hard on a wet surface, which is
twice as dangerous.  Generally car manuf'rs compromise with something
like 65/35, depending upon the CG of the car.

You might be right about the transient response of the front brakes, but
brakes don't lock at all except during hard braking, and given a choice,
it is definitely better to lock the front than the rear.

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:07:50 +1100 (EST) Mos  writes:
> (This is off topic, but nonetheless interesting).
> 
> I would've thought the front brakes are more prone to locking up 
> first
> upon a heavy stomp, as they have more braking power to start with, 
> and the
> front wheels are unloaded relative to when the car is actually 
> slowing
> down rapidly.
> 
> What does properly biased mean? The correct bias (in reference to 
> the
> force a tyre can hold) changes with deceleration magnitude, does it 
> not?
> If you bias for maximal deceleration, then the fronts will be 
> overbiased
> in slower deceleration, right? (And wont help you with stomping at 
> all).
> 
> Mos.

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From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Dec  5 06:59:05 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 03:59:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 



Adam Wade wrote:
> 
> However, it's far more important to maintain control
> with the front wheels, since they steer the vehicle;
> thus single-axle ABS is almost exclusively on the
> front axle.

Not true.
GM vehicles.  First app that I know of ABS is Oldsmobile, 1969, rear axle
"anti skid" electric brake control.  Offered on Cadillac in different forms
also.

Second "modern" abs application by GM that I'm aware of was in 1988 with
advent of new bodystyle pickups.  Brake bias in utility vehicles has always
been an issue.  Adding Rear Wheel Antilock allowed GM to remove the
mechanically activated, height adjusted bias valve.  This same RWAL was
added to S10, van, and RWD minivan platforms.  Rear wheel antilock braking
systems are also used in medium and heavy duty trucks, with both air and
hydraulic brakes.

> 
> Volkswagen had an ingenious solution for their
> Transporter in the 60s and 70s...  They had a
> tiltmeter in the form of a ball-bearing check valve.
> the harder one hit the brakes, or the more the rear
> lifted in a stop, the less it would bias the rear
> brakes.  As long as the system had the fluid changed
> yearly, it worked incredibly well.

GM's valve on pickups consists of a lever attached to the rear axle. 
Changes in height changed brake bias.  As long as one didn't use the truck,
the system worked incredibly well. ; )
Shannen

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From pedward at apsoft.com  Thu Dec  5 07:38:29 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 04:38:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] ABS retrofit, many messages replied
Message-ID: 

This message is mainly regarding Mos' message and Eric Byrd's.

A brake bias valve is designed such that *when* a wheel locks up while braking,
it's the front wheel.

The reason for this is that it promotes directional stability.  If you lock up
the front before the rear, the car will travel in the same direction as
it was when the brakes locked.  This is understeer.

If the rear brakes lock before the front, the car loses directional stability
and swaps ends.  This is very prominent on vehicles with a large weight transfer
to the front under braking, or vehicles with a large disproportion in weight
distribution.

A stock late 80's Mustang gives a greate example of the first.  The rear suspension
on those cars was very softly sprung, with a lot of braking force in the front.
If you were to chance hitting the brakes abruptly (emergency) at high speed, the back
end of the car will nearly lift off the ground.  It is neccessary then to modulate
the brakes in order to prevent the car from swapping ends do to a large weight transfer.

A very good example of the second scenario is an 80's Dodge D50 or Mitsubishi pickup.
These trucks were very light and had almost no weight over the rear axle.  This
manifested itself in several manners, rear brake lockup and lack of traction on steep
surfaces.  This vehicle would always lock up the rear brakes in a brisk stop.  It
was very disconcerting as the front brakes were not great.

To address single axle ABS, the driven wheels are almost always the ones with ABS.
On FWD cars they put ABS on the front because the weight distribution sucks so bad
and only is worse under braking.  They effectively have to limit the applied
braking force in order to compensate for the small, cheap, crappy tires often
installed on such vehicles.

On RWD vechicles, ABS is almost exclusively found on the rear axle of pickup trucks just
for the reason I listed above.  Pickups are designed to carry weights that are a
significant fraction of their GVWR, thus they make the back end stiffly sprung and
light in order to cheaply carry loads.  They offset the design by installing ABS on
the rear axle only.

In inclimate weather this is no peace of mind, as the understeer phenomenon is very
present.

As to brake biasing, the vehicle's typical power is distributed 70/30, front biased.
The more bias you add to the rear, the more it is likely to lock up.

Thus if you biased the vehicle 70/30, an ideal vehicle with no weight transfer would
have both axles lock up.  If the same vehicle was biased 75/25 the front would lockup
and the rear would not.

Since there are few ideal vehicles (if at all), you must limit the pressure to the
rear brakes in order to prevent their lockup, or locking up before the fronts.  In
low friction coeffient situations you will likely lock both axles, but with normal
to high friction coefficients, the front will lock only.

VW has been installing a variable bias valve on their semi trailing rear axle FWD
vehicles for many years.  These cars have single, very large stamped steel "swaybar"
type trailing arm assembly with MacPherson struts.  There is a bias valve attached
to the body of the vehicle with the actuator rod connected to the trailing arm.
When the car experiences a large weight transfer the bias valve progressively limits
braking force to the rear axle, effectively preventing lockup.

As for the mechanics of weight transfer, here's a very simple model:

A tire has a given grip which is a function of it's friction coefficient and weight
applied to the tire.

Let's describe 2 tires:

The race tire has a coefficient of 1, meaning that 100% of the weight applied to the tire
can be transferred to grip.

The street tire has a coefficient of .85, meaning that 85% of the weight applied to the
tire can be transferred to grip.

This model only applies up to the maximum rating of the tire, let's give the race tire
a weight rating of 1500lbs and the street tire a rating of 1200lbs.

What this means is that the tire can see a vertical loading force of 1500 and 1200 lbs
respectively before overloading.

Our model car weighs 3000lbs.

If we take the ideal car that has a 50/50 weight distribution, you will see that the
race tire will sustain 1G on 2 tires and the street tires will sustain .68G on 2 tires.

This may confuse you at first, but there is more to come.

First, let's explain the ideal numbers:

Car weight			3000lbs
Weight per tire at rest:	750lbs
Maximum load per tire:		1500lbs(race)	1200lbs(street)
Friction coefficient:		1.00(race)	0.85(street)
Percentage of static grip:	50%(race)	73.5%(street)

When the car is loading the tires you must take into account the weight rating and
the friction coeffient as multipliers.  Your weight rating is the maximum vertical
load you can place on that tire, the friction coefficient is how much grip the tire
will generate at maximum load.

Grip is distributed in 2 axis, lateral and forward.  You can quickly determine how
much of a grip budget you have per tire by just doing the friction coefficient math
first, thus the race tire has a budget of 1500lbs and the street tire has a budget
of 1020lbs.  This is the useful grip you can expect from the tire at maximum load.

Thus with the race tire you have 750lbs lateral thrust and 750lbs forward thrust
available.  With the street tire you have 510lbs of lateral thrust and 510lbs of
forward thrust.

You can trade off these values all you want, but you cannot exceed your budget.

Weight transfer directly affects your budget, because weight gives you grip.  This
is where the friction coefficient comes in.

Say you are driving forward, but you only have 1700lbs on the rear tires, you will
only have 1*1700 or .85*1700 lbs of forward grip available.  This means that even
though your tires CAN generate more grip they aren't because there is not enough
weight transfer to cause them to generate maximum grip.

Take drag racing as example:  The ultimate ideal drag racer has 100% weight transfer
to the rear tires.  In our example that means 3000lbs on the rear axle.  With
100% weight transfer the race tires in our example will generate 1G of forward
thrust. The street tires will generate .68G of forward thrust before slipping, but
100% weight transfer will never occur because this would exceed your budget.

Now you must take into account that the friction coefficients of these tires are
based on a surface with a coefficient of 1.  On drag strips they can modify the
surface to increase the coefficient and thus the coefficient of the tire.  If you
doubled the coefficient of the surface, you double the coefficient of the tire.

This plays in both directions.  If you halve the surface coefficient, you halve the
tire coefficient.

This is where rain, snow, and ice come in.  This is also where weight transfer comes
in and why bias matters so much.

If your weight transfer were exactly the same for all surface coefficients, your
brake bias would be the same for all surfaces.  Unfortunately there is a problem.
Your weight transfer is determined by the friction coefficient of the surface.

If you apply your brakes on a surface coefficient half of normal, your weight transfer
will be less and thus generated grip of the tires.  Your tires need weight transfer
to develop grip, otherwise they will only have the grip they do at static weight.

This is why your brakes lock up when it's slippery outside.  Your brakes are generating
the same force, but the tires aren't and thus there is less weight transfer and less
grip.

The whole stumper in all this is:

Tire manufacturers as a general rule do not release friction coefficient information.  Thus
you do not know how much better a tire is.

You also cannot rely on treadwear ratings as they are not standard across manufacturers, only
within model lines.

What you can do is make some educated assumptions.  Race tires usually have a FC of around 1,
the more expensive, the higher the FC.  Street tires are similar.  The cheaper the tire, the
less the FC.  There are many factors in tire construction which influence the FC, so price
is a good starting point for estimating FC.

I hope this makes sense to everyone.  You can find similar material in books on race cars,
with nice pretty graphs.

--Perry

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.
                             -- Benjamin Franklin

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From klox at juno.com  Thu Dec  5 08:18:01 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:18:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] ABS retrofit, many messages replied
Message-ID: 

Thank you...I was not aware that variable bias valves existed.  Great
idea.

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002 00:45:43 -0800 Perry Harrington 
writes:
> This message is mainly regarding Mos' message and Eric Byrd's.
> 
> A brake bias valve is designed such that *when* a wheel locks up 
> while braking,
> it's the front wheel.
> 
> The reason for this is that it promotes directional stability.  If 
> you lock up
> the front before the rear, the car will travel in the same direction 
> as
> it was when the brakes locked.  This is understeer.
> 
> If the rear brakes lock before the front, the car loses directional 
> stability
> and swaps ends.  This is very prominent on vehicles with a large 
> weight transfer
> to the front under braking, or vehicles with a large disproportion 
> in weight
> distribution.
> 
> A stock late 80's Mustang gives a greate example of the first.  The 
> rear suspension
> on those cars was very softly sprung, with a lot of braking force in 
> the front.
> If you were to chance hitting the brakes abruptly (emergency) at 
> high speed, the back
> end of the car will nearly lift off the ground.  It is neccessary 
> then to modulate
> the brakes in order to prevent the car from swapping ends do to a 
> large weight transfer.
> 
> A very good example of the second scenario is an 80's Dodge D50 or 
> Mitsubishi pickup.
> These trucks were very light and had almost no weight over the rear 
> axle.  This
> manifested itself in several manners, rear brake lockup and lack of 
> traction on steep
> surfaces.  This vehicle would always lock up the rear brakes in a 
> brisk stop.  It
> was very disconcerting as the front brakes were not great.
> 
> To address single axle ABS, the driven wheels are almost always the 
> ones with ABS.
> On FWD cars they put ABS on the front because the weight 
> distribution sucks so bad
> and only is worse under braking.  They effectively have to limit the 
> applied
> braking force in order to compensate for the small, cheap, crappy 
> tires often
> installed on such vehicles.
> 
> On RWD vechicles, ABS is almost exclusively found on the rear axle 
> of pickup trucks just
> for the reason I listed above.  Pickups are designed to carry 
> weights that are a
> significant fraction of their GVWR, thus they make the back end 
> stiffly sprung and
> light in order to cheaply carry loads.  They offset the design by 
> installing ABS on
> the rear axle only.
> 
> In inclimate weather this is no peace of mind, as the understeer 
> phenomenon is very
> present.
> 
> As to brake biasing, the vehicle's typical power is distributed 
> 70/30, front biased.
> The more bias you add to the rear, the more it is likely to lock up.
> 
> Thus if you biased the vehicle 70/30, an ideal vehicle with no 
> weight transfer would
> have both axles lock up.  If the same vehicle was biased 75/25 the 
> front would lockup
> and the rear would not.
> 
> Since there are few ideal vehicles (if at all), you must limit the 
> pressure to the
> rear brakes in order to prevent their lockup, or locking up before 
> the fronts.  In
> low friction coeffient situations you will likely lock both axles, 
> but with normal
> to high friction coefficients, the front will lock only.
> 
> VW has been installing a variable bias valve on their semi trailing 
> rear axle FWD
> vehicles for many years.  These cars have single, very large stamped 
> steel "swaybar"
> type trailing arm assembly with MacPherson struts.  There is a bias 
> valve attached
> to the body of the vehicle with the actuator rod connected to the 
> trailing arm.
> When the car experiences a large weight transfer the bias valve 
> progressively limits
> braking force to the rear axle, effectively preventing lockup.
> 
> As for the mechanics of weight transfer, here's a very simple model:
> 
> A tire has a given grip which is a function of it's friction 
> coefficient and weight
> applied to the tire.
> 
> Let's describe 2 tires:
> 
> The race tire has a coefficient of 1, meaning that 100% of the 
> weight applied to the tire
> can be transferred to grip.
> 
> The street tire has a coefficient of .85, meaning that 85% of the 
> weight applied to the
> tire can be transferred to grip.
> 
> This model only applies up to the maximum rating of the tire, let's 
> give the race tire
> a weight rating of 1500lbs and the street tire a rating of 1200lbs.
> 
> What this means is that the tire can see a vertical loading force of 
> 1500 and 1200 lbs
> respectively before overloading.
> 
> Our model car weighs 3000lbs.
> 
> If we take the ideal car that has a 50/50 weight distribution, you 
> will see that the
> race tire will sustain 1G on 2 tires and the street tires will 
> sustain .68G on 2 tires.
> 
> This may confuse you at first, but there is more to come.
> 
> First, let's explain the ideal numbers:
> 
> Car weight			3000lbs
> Weight per tire at rest:	750lbs
> Maximum load per 
> tire:		1500lbs(race)	1200lbs(street)
> Friction coefficient:		1.00(race)	0.85(street)
> Percentage of static grip:	50%(race)	73.5%(street)
> 
> When the car is loading the tires you must take into account the 
> weight rating and
> the friction coeffient as multipliers.  Your weight rating is the 
> maximum vertical
> load you can place on that tire, the friction coefficient is how 
> much grip the tire
> will generate at maximum load.
> 
> Grip is distributed in 2 axis, lateral and forward.  You can quickly 
> determine how
> much of a grip budget you have per tire by just doing the friction 
> coefficient math
> first, thus the race tire has a budget of 1500lbs and the street 
> tire has a budget
> of 1020lbs.  This is the useful grip you can expect from the tire at 
> maximum load.
> 
> Thus with the race tire you have 750lbs lateral thrust and 750lbs 
> forward thrust
> available.  With the street tire you have 510lbs of lateral thrust 
> and 510lbs of
> forward thrust.
> 
> You can trade off these values all you want, but you cannot exceed 
> your budget.
> 
> Weight transfer directly affects your budget, because weight gives 
> you grip.  This
> is where the friction coefficient comes in.
> 
> Say you are driving forward, but you only have 1700lbs on the rear 
> tires, you will
> only have 1*1700 or .85*1700 lbs of forward grip available.  This 
> means that even
> though your tires CAN generate more grip they aren't because there 
> is not enough
> weight transfer to cause them to generate maximum grip.
> 
> Take drag racing as example:  The ultimate ideal drag racer has 100% 
> weight transfer
> to the rear tires.  In our example that means 3000lbs on the rear 
> axle.  With
> 100% weight transfer the race tires in our example will generate 1G 
> of forward
> thrust. The street tires will generate .68G of forward thrust before 
> slipping, but
> 100% weight transfer will never occur because this would exceed your 
> budget.
> 
> Now you must take into account that the friction coefficients of 
> these tires are
> based on a surface with a coefficient of 1.  On drag strips they can 
> modify the
> surface to increase the coefficient and thus the coefficient of the 
> tire.  If you
> doubled the coefficient of the surface, you double the coefficient 
> of the tire.
> 
> This plays in both directions.  If you halve the surface 
> coefficient, you halve the
> tire coefficient.
> 
> This is where rain, snow, and ice come in.  This is also where 
> weight transfer comes
> in and why bias matters so much.
> 
> If your weight transfer were exactly the same for all surface 
> coefficients, your
> brake bias would be the same for all surfaces.  Unfortunately there 
> is a problem.
> Your weight transfer is determined by the friction coefficient of 
> the surface.
> 
> If you apply your brakes on a surface coefficient half of normal, 
> your weight transfer
> will be less and thus generated grip of the tires.  Your tires need 
> weight transfer
> to develop grip, otherwise they will only have the grip they do at 
> static weight.
> 
> This is why your brakes lock up when it's slippery outside.  Your 
> brakes are generating
> the same force, but the tires aren't and thus there is less weight 
> transfer and less
> grip.
> 
> The whole stumper in all this is:
> 
> Tire manufacturers as a general rule do not release friction 
> coefficient information.  Thus
> you do not know how much better a tire is.
> 
> You also cannot rely on treadwear ratings as they are not standard 
> across manufacturers, only
> within model lines.
> 
> What you can do is make some educated assumptions.  Race tires 
> usually have a FC of around 1,
> the more expensive, the higher the FC.  Street tires are similar.  
> The cheaper the tire, the
> less the FC.  There are many factors in tire construction which 
> influence the FC, so price
> is a good starting point for estimating FC.
> 
> I hope this makes sense to everyone.  You can find similar material 
> in books on race cars,
> with nice pretty graphs.
> 
> --Perry
> 
> -- 
> Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & 
> Instrumentation, Inc	
> perry at dainst dot com					 
> http://www.dainst.com/
> 
> Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little 
> temporary safety
> deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up 
> with either.
>                              -- Benjamin Franklin
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From ohiobenz at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  5 11:23:17 2002
From: ohiobenz at yahoo.com (Ohio Benz)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 08:23:17 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] AMP connectors
Message-ID: 

Could someone provide the style name of the AMP
connector used on Bosch fuel injectors? and a good
source where to purchase male & female versions of 2,3
& 4 pin connectors for an automotive wiring harness?Thanks

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From ohiobenz at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  5 12:39:24 2002
From: ohiobenz at yahoo.com (Ohio Benz)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 09:39:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] ABS braking
Message-ID: 

Maybe I'm over simplifying the system, but what we
have to my understanding is a set of prox's that
senses the impulses of each of the wheels' rotation.
The controller then modulates the brake pump output to
the point that the wheel has brake pressure applied,
but not locked up - hence the pulsations. The
controller senses each wheel independently and then
controls each of the 4 or 6 valves to allow the proper
output from the pump to go to the one(s) that rotates
the fastest.

My '94 E150 has single axle REAR ABS, not front
because the purpose is to keep the unloaded wheels
from locking up.

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Thu Dec  5 13:14:58 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 10:14:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with hydraulic reverse
Message-ID: 

As we were on the topic of ABS and braking systems etc

I wonder if there are any systems that employ some sort of hydraulic
short/small "reverse valving" (or some such), to do this:-

a.	Allow normal brake pressure to apply brakes
b.	When pedal released, valve pulls/sucks back a small
	amount of fluid from the calipers to provide more
	clearance between pads and disk
	Clearly this would mean the disc pad and caliper piston are
	connected by more than friction. ie. Many pad brake installers
	use a little high temperature neutral cure silicone to help
	reduce brake squeal.

Such an approach would hopefully reduce disc and pad wear by forcing
the pads to retract (a small amount) from the discs, rather then
leaving it to disc perturbation in the absence of hydraulic brake
pressure. I've seen on many cars that a pedal release still drags
the pads a little...

Anyone know of any type of inline valve arrangement which might be
suitable, manufacturable, adaptable, usable, tryable ?

Rgds

Mike
Perth, Western Australia
Some power/auto stuff here:-  http://www.iinet.net.au/~erazmus


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From rjs at bnl.gov  Thu Dec  5 13:15:46 2002
From: rjs at bnl.gov (Ron Schroeder)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 10:15:46 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] veggie van
Message-ID: 

Hi Lasse,

There are 2 ways to run a diesel on veggie oil.  The first way is to heat
the oil up to about 180 degrees so it is similar in viscosity to regular
diesel fuel.  This usually requires purging the pump and injectors with
regular diesel fuel just before turning off the engine to prevent coking of
the injectors.

The second way is to turn the veggie oil into biodiesel.  An
oversimplification is basically the glycerin is removed from the oil.  The
biodiesel can then be run at normal temperatures in an unmodified diesel
engine.
Biodiesel will soften natural rubber so the fuel hoses and seals should be
replaced with viton.  Many diesels already have only viton in the fuel
system.

Assuming good quality biodiesel, the engine will run cleaner and last longer
with biodiesel than with dinosaur diesel.

I ran my Audi 4000S diesel on filtered waste veggie oil with the diesel fuel
purge for over 75,000 miles.

With Propane injection too (obligatory EFI content)

Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
day 631 344-4561
nite 631 286-5677

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lasse Langwadt Christensen" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] veggie van


> steve ravet wrote:
> > Has anyone else heard of this?  Apparently it's making the rounds on
> > Discovery, CNN, etc.  There are people out there running their diesel
> > vehicles on sunflower oil, used french fry oil from McDonalds, etc.
> > Does this really work reliably in the long run?
> >
> > http://www.veggievan.com is one of the many sites that talk about this.
> >
> > --steve
> >
>
> Not too long ago the was a show on Nationa geographic (I think) about
> the people of Bougainville, after seven years of war and no import of
> anything, they were still driving around in the Toyota pickups and using
> generators left by a mining company, running on coconut oil ...
>
> I wonder how long a modern diesel with its +20000psi pump would last?
>
> -Lasse

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From Scott.Amenson at us.bosch.com  Thu Dec  5 13:44:38 2002
From: Scott.Amenson at us.bosch.com (Amenson Scott   (AC/ESC4))
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 10:44:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

Perry,
Almost all vehicles have proportioning valves.  They are essentially the
same devices that we put on our race/modified cars except for that the
spring tension (rear pressure response curves) are not externally
adjustable.

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:48:47 -0800
From: Perry Harrington 
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

I wonder if he's referring to those delay valves used to delay the onset of
rear brakes.  The stated purpose is to prevent rear brake lockup by
preventing
the high pressure surge when someone stomps the pedal in an emergency.

Those devices are not neccessary if you have properly biased your brakes.
That is the whole purpose of a bias valve, it limits pressure to the rear
brakes so that the front brakes lockup first.

--Perry

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From Scott.Amenson at us.bosch.com  Thu Dec  5 14:15:32 2002
From: Scott.Amenson at us.bosch.com (Amenson Scott   (AC/ESC4))
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 11:15:32 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 




"The problem is that ABS systems require very serious
testing and certification before they are allowed to be used on a road going
car, most of this testing is quite destructive and very expensive, hence
only worth while for a large production."

Actually...if testing goes well;) there is very little destruction involved.
Although it is very expensive.


"PS: I'm not sure of the exact method used by the manufacturers for their
ABS
systems but would imagine it's some kind of bang-bang controller, ie it
allows full brake pressure until the tires almost lock up, then bleeds the
pressure off and repeats the process.  I get this from the pulsing feeling
when heavily decelerating in most ABS fitted cars."


That is true for all but the most recent systems.  In order to reduce the
pulsing that the driver feels on the gas pedal, systems are moving away from
bang-bang/PWM control toward a more proportional control.  In an effort to
completely eliminate system pedal feedback, brake by wire systems have been
developed and installed in some high end cars.

Scott

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Thu Dec  5 14:26:55 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 11:26:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

At 09:07 AM 12/5/02 -0500, you wrote:

>That is true for all but the most recent systems.  In order to reduce the
>pulsing that the driver feels on the gas pedal, systems are moving away from
>bang-bang/PWM control toward a more proportional control. 

PWM - is actually a proportional control that is sourced by the electronics
and micro-controller, it all depends how good the destination mechanical
device is though. Take a classic proportional hydraulic valve, controlled
by a PWM current with say 16 bit or more resolution - theres nothing more
proportional than that...





Rgds

Mike
Perth, Western Australia
Some power/auto stuff here:-  http://www.iinet.net.au/~erazmus


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From OKCGS at aol.com  Thu Dec  5 17:10:15 2002
From: OKCGS at aol.com (OKCGS at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:10:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] 4L80E Questions
Message-ID: 

Hi,  just reading about the 4L80e being put into a older vehicle. I want to 
put one into my 93 chevy suburban. Please send me the schmatics as well.  It 
will help

thanks

claude hall

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From nwester at eidnet.org  Thu Dec  5 17:59:29 2002
From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 14:59:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] 4L80E Questions
Message-ID: 

It probably would.
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 4L80E Questions


> Hi,  just reading about the 4L80e being put into a older vehicle. I want
to
> put one into my 93 chevy suburban. Please send me the schmatics as well.
It
> will help
>
> thanks
>
> claude hall
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From langwadt at ieee.org  Thu Dec  5 19:04:09 2002
From: langwadt at ieee.org (Lasse Langwadt Christensen)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:04:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

Scott F. Williams wrote:
 >
snip
> 
> Meanwhile, optimal braking is never achieved by violently stomping on the
> brakes. A smooth modulation of force is best -even when ABS is there to bale
> one out electronically.

Hi,

I not sure how good current ABS' really is, but, my initial thought 
would be that with an "ideal" ABS stomping the pedal and keeping it 
there would be the best approach, it should apply maximum possible 
breaking on all four wheels and as the weight transfer starts, move more 
  breaking onto the front wheels maintaning maximum on all wheels until 
the car is stopped.
Trying to breake optimal yourself would only get you and the electronics 
        in a fight, and take longer ??

-Lasse




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From eric.deslauriers at oracle.com  Thu Dec  5 19:30:03 2002
From: eric.deslauriers at oracle.com (Eric Deslauriers)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:30:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

Check out Mercedes' new braking system on their SL500. Now when you try to
modulate, the system takes over for you. Once you do max braking, it keeps
it up.

http://dev.roadandtrack.com/reviews/roadtests/ArticleDisplay.asp?ArticleID=4
8&page=2
and the top of page 3 as well.

Couldn't find a link to the brake point article, but the brakes on this
beast are nothing short of awesome. And there's still so much more they need
to do to have awesome ABS.

My car has excellent ABS, but when I'm diving towards a corner and the RF
wheel hits some moss and the front brakes let go when I'm expecting to
continue slowing down so I can nail the apex, it takes a moment to realize
that you need to steer more or go off the road.

And when going off the road involves a 30 foot embankment and trees, it
don't get much more exciting.

Eric D


Hi,

I not sure how good current ABS' really is, but, my initial thought
would be that with an "ideal" ABS stomping the pedal and keeping it
there would be the best approach, it should apply maximum possible
breaking on all four wheels and as the weight transfer starts, move more
  breaking onto the front wheels maintaning maximum on all wheels until
the car is stopped.
Trying to breake optimal yourself would only get you and the electronics
        in a fight, and take longer ??

-Lasse




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From axel_rietschin at compuserve.com  Thu Dec  5 19:37:35 2002
From: axel_rietschin at compuserve.com (Axel Rietschin)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:37:35 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with hydraulic reverse valve ?
Message-ID: 

The pads always retract a bit because the disk is never 100% flat and also
because of the play in the wheel bearing (not sure of the English name for
those). On racing caliper we use springs behind the pistons to make sure the
pads always stay in contact with the disk, this gives a consistent pedal
feeling. With your approach the pedal travel would be huge and inconsistent.

-Axel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 2:12 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with hydraulic
reverse valve ?


>
> As we were on the topic of ABS and braking systems etc
>
> I wonder if there are any systems that employ some sort of hydraulic
> short/small "reverse valving" (or some such), to do this:-
>
> a. Allow normal brake pressure to apply brakes
> b. When pedal released, valve pulls/sucks back a small
> amount of fluid from the calipers to provide more
> clearance between pads and disk
> Clearly this would mean the disc pad and caliper piston are
> connected by more than friction. ie. Many pad brake installers
> use a little high temperature neutral cure silicone to help
> reduce brake squeal.
>
> Such an approach would hopefully reduce disc and pad wear by forcing
> the pads to retract (a small amount) from the discs, rather then
> leaving it to disc perturbation in the absence of hydraulic brake
> pressure. I've seen on many cars that a pedal release still drags
> the pads a little...
>
> Anyone know of any type of inline valve arrangement which might be
> suitable, manufacturable, adaptable, usable, tryable ?
>
> Rgds
>
> Mike
> Perth, Western Australia
> Some power/auto stuff here:-  http://www.iinet.net.au/~erazmus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From skulte at skulte.com  Thu Dec  5 19:53:09 2002
From: skulte at skulte.com (Andris Skulte)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:53:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Eric Deslauriers wrote:

> Check out Mercedes' new braking system on their SL500. Now when you try to
> modulate, the system takes over for you. Once you do max braking, it keeps
> it up.

Would the system get confused if say, you went to max braking from Turn 1
at Watkins Glen, then started to ease off as you turned in? I would assume
feeding in a little throttle should kick it out of max braking.

A.


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From pedward at apsoft.com  Thu Dec  5 20:07:46 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:07:46 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] AMP connectors
Message-ID: 

AMP part number 827551-3

--Perry

On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 03:11:56AM -0800, Ohio Benz wrote:
> Could someone provide the style name of the AMP
> connector used on Bosch fuel injectors? and a good
> source where to purchase male & female versions of 2,3
> & 4 pin connectors for an automotive wiring harness?Thanks
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.
                             -- Benjamin Franklin

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From pedward at apsoft.com  Thu Dec  5 20:13:43 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:13:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

I was referring to the "street rod" wonder toy.

For some reason in those circles those delay lines are considered magic.
It's silly really.

--Perry

On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 08:46:18AM -0500, Amenson Scott   (AC/ESC4) wrote:
> Perry,
> Almost all vehicles have proportioning valves.  They are essentially the
> same devices that we put on our race/modified cars except for that the
> spring tension (rear pressure response curves) are not externally
> adjustable.
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:48:47 -0800
> From: Perry Harrington 
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> I wonder if he's referring to those delay valves used to delay the onset of
> rear brakes.  The stated purpose is to prevent rear brake lockup by
> preventing
> the high pressure surge when someone stomps the pedal in an emergency.
> 
> Those devices are not neccessary if you have properly biased your brakes.
> That is the whole purpose of a bias valve, it limits pressure to the rear
> brakes so that the front brakes lockup first.
> 
> --Perry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.
                             -- Benjamin Franklin

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From sfwilliams at comcast.net  Thu Dec  5 20:41:44 2002
From: sfwilliams at comcast.net (Scott F. Williams)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:41:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

Lasse wrote:
> I not sure how good current ABS' really is, but, my initial thought
> would be that with an "ideal" ABS stomping the pedal and keeping it
> there would be the best approach, it should apply maximum possible
> breaking on all four wheels and as the weight transfer starts, move more
>   breaking onto the front wheels maintaning maximum on all wheels until
> the car is stopped.

Well, I can't back up my claim quantitatively. However, my racecar driver
instincts tell me that smoothly applying even ABS-equipped brakes will avoid
"shocking" and breaking loose the tire contact patches in the first place.
All ABS does is modulate the brakes faster than a human can once the tires
have already lost grip. Now, in the event that one has to maneuver while
braking, stomping on the pedal is *absolutely* a bad thing -ABS or no ABS.

> Trying to breake optimal yourself would only get you and the electronics
> in a fight, and take longer ??

Nah, smoothly applying the brakes pays dividends all over the place.
Stomping only upsets the car's balance, leads to nasty spins, gross
understeer, etc. Once the vehicle is balanced, however, it may be fine to
press harder and let the ABS modulate from there. -depends on the particular
car/driver combination.
--
Scott F. Williams
NJ Scirocco nut
'99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."



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From fj40brett at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  5 20:41:52 2002
From: fj40brett at yahoo.com (Brett Garland)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:41:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] 7747 ecu file for winbin...
Message-ID: 

does anyone have a ecu file for the 7747 ecu that
works with win bin?  winbin keeps saying invalid ecu
format.  Any tricks? I cant get any on the 7747 info
site to work, but the 7730 ones work just fine with
the 7730 bin files.

Thanks!
-Brett

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From eric.deslauriers at oracle.com  Thu Dec  5 20:57:11 2002
From: eric.deslauriers at oracle.com (Eric Deslauriers)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 17:57:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

Apparently it is a marvel at the track. The max braking is if you stab the
brake, then let off a bit and appears to be only for an indeterminate period
of time (or speed reduction?). Not until you come to a stop or anything like
that.

People apparently panic when the pedal starts chattering and let off,
thereby extending their stopping distances.

Threshold braking is good, but once ABS steps in, you're supposed to let it
do the work if you're trying to minimize stopping distances.

IMO, this max braking feature means the guy behind you will rear end you
since he was likely too close to begin with and his car won't even come
close to stopping as quickly. :)

My car has been rear ended due to its superior braking abilities (60-0 in
appx 113 feet). the guy behind me started braking harder earlier than I did.
But since I didn't want to hit the guy in front of me, I had no choice (and
likely would have been hit anyways).

All ABS is not created equal. The ABS on my 93 Suburban was complete JUNK.
Nothing like getting pushed into a wet intersection by your trailer because
you hit the white line and ABS kicked in. It cycled too slowly to be very
effective IMO. The ABS on my '01 Yukon XL is pretty solid and the brakes on
it rock too.

Eric D

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Andris Skulte
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 11:55 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...


On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Eric Deslauriers wrote:

> Check out Mercedes' new braking system on their SL500. Now when you try to
> modulate, the system takes over for you. Once you do max braking, it keeps
> it up.

Would the system get confused if say, you went to max braking from Turn 1
at Watkins Glen, then started to ease off as you turned in? I would assume
feeding in a little throttle should kick it out of max braking.

A.


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From nwester at eidnet.org  Thu Dec  5 21:32:04 2002
From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 18:32:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] 7747 ecu file for winbin...
Message-ID: 

If you're saving your ECU file to a text format it won't work. You've got to
save it as an "All Files" with *.ecu extension. If you're still having
problems, send me your file and I'll correct it.

Lyndon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Garland" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 1:46 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] 7747 ecu file for winbin...


> does anyone have a ecu file for the 7747 ecu that
> works with win bin?  winbin keeps saying invalid ecu
> format.  Any tricks? I cant get any on the 7747 info
> site to work, but the 7730 ones work just fine with
> the 7730 bin files.
>
> Thanks!
> -Brett
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From patc at opposition.tv  Thu Dec  5 22:27:24 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 19:27:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C29D0A.FBCDFD90
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I just wanted to shed some light on the biodiesel topic. I have been
involved with a project to research the viability of this fuel for full
scale commercial use.

Biodiesel is in fact a fatty acid ethyl ester produced from reacting alcohol
and vegetable oil togethor in the presence of a catalyst. It is typically
produced in batch type processors where the ingredients are mixed and left
to settle for 6-8 hours. While the process is quite simple, it is time
consuming and not very efficient for mass production. Despite this, approx 7
billion litres of biodeisel is currently produced in the US every year. The
Germans and French also produce massive amounts as an answer to local air
pollution. It is usually blended with 80% petro-diesel for economic reasons.

Thanks to the hard work of some clever people (Adam Kahn at the Uni of QLD
deserves a mention here for his thesis) there are now processes being
developed which could end up as a very efficient flow type process with a
much higher output.

The fuel itself is superior to "dinosaur diesel" in almost every way,
especially in the fact that it possesses high lubricity with virtually no
sulfur (ask the swedes what happens when you try to remove ALL the sulfur
from diesel). This is also a side effect of using vegetable oil as it is a
fatastic natural lubricant. So , in answer to Lasse, the Bouganvillians'
Toyota's were probably in better health than most. It is also "carbon
neutral" due to the fact that it is derived from a plant crop and as such
the carbon released is consumed again by the next crop. It is aquatically
non-toxic, biodegradable and as such presents no immediate danger to the
environement when spilt.

For anyone who wants to find out more check out

www.gemtek.com
www.biodiesel.com
www.biodieselgear.com

The first link is doubly interesting as it shows what can be done with
vegetable oil as a lubricant. Also check out www.fuchs.de and look for a
product range called Planto.

This is a technology which has huge potential for the world and is one of
the most sensible alternatives to providing transportation for everyone
without destroying the atmosphere.


Pat Cahill
Smartlub

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From sundell at usa.net  Thu Dec  5 22:36:10 2002
From: sundell at usa.net (Kris Sundell)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 19:36:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] AMP connectors
Message-ID: 

I've had good luck getting connectors and wiring harnesses from AZ-CONN.
Their website is www.azconn.com.



Kris Sundell
Vice President
Stewart & Sundell Concrete
1760 West Brooks Ave
North Las Vegas, NV 89032
Office (702) 647-3723
FAX (702) 647-4560
http://www.stewart-sundell.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Perry Harrington
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 1:08 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] AMP connectors

AMP part number 827551-3

--Perry

On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 03:11:56AM -0800, Ohio Benz wrote:
> Could someone provide the style name of the AMP
> connector used on Bosch fuel injectors? and a good
> source where to purchase male & female versions of 2,3
> & 4 pin connectors for an automotive wiring harness?Thanks
>
> __________________________________________________
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--
Perry Harrington                        Data Acquisition & Instrumentation,
Inc
perry at dainst dot com
http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary
safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with
either.
                             -- Benjamin Franklin

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From karlandanne at sympatico.ca  Thu Dec  5 23:42:14 2002
From: karlandanne at sympatico.ca (The McConnell's)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 20:42:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

"All ABS is not created equal. The ABS on my 93 Suburban was complete JUNK.
Nothing like getting pushed into a wet intersection by your trailer because
you hit the white line and ABS kicked in. It cycled too slowly to be very
effective IMO. The ABS on my '01 Yukon XL is pretty solid and the brakes on
it rock too."

thats not fair, comparing the brakes on a subaru (light little car) pulling
a trailer on wet pavement, to a 8000lb suv.  of course the 8000lb suv isnt
gonna skid in the same situation.




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From pedward at apsoft.com  Fri Dec  6 00:05:21 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:05:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

Uhh, reread again, he said SUBURBAN.  This is the same vehicle as a Yukon XL.

--Perry

On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 06:45:30PM -0500, The McConnell's wrote:
> "All ABS is not created equal. The ABS on my 93 Suburban was complete JUNK.
> Nothing like getting pushed into a wet intersection by your trailer because
> you hit the white line and ABS kicked in. It cycled too slowly to be very
> effective IMO. The ABS on my '01 Yukon XL is pretty solid and the brakes on
> it rock too."
> 
> thats not fair, comparing the brakes on a subaru (light little car) pulling
> a trailer on wet pavement, to a 8000lb suv.  of course the 8000lb suv isnt
> gonna skid in the same situation.

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.
                             -- Benjamin Franklin

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From kd694j0538f at hotmail.com  Fri Dec  6 00:21:48 2002
From: kd694j0538f at hotmail.com (kd694j0538f at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:21:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] AMP connectors
Message-ID: 

It is AMP's "Junior Timer" series. The 2 pin you can get from VW. The 3 & 4
pin is a Europe only part and I had no luck finding one. I did get AMP to
sample me for free on the 3-pin connectors.

FR Wilk
________________________________

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ohio Benz" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 3:11 AM
Subject: [Diy_efi] AMP connectors


> Could someone provide the style name of the AMP
> connector used on Bosch fuel injectors? and a good
> source where to purchase male & female versions of 2,3
> & 4 pin connectors for an automotive wiring harness?Thanks
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>

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From brd at paradise.net.nz  Fri Dec  6 00:57:34 2002
From: brd at paradise.net.nz (Tony Bryant)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 21:57:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] AMP connectors
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:12, kd694j0538f at hotmail.com wrote:
> It is AMP's "Junior Timer" series. The 2 pin you can get from VW. The 3 & 4
> pin is a Europe only part and I had no luck finding one. I did get AMP to
> sample me for free on the 3-pin connectors.

Try the junk yard - early to mid 80's Nissans have them.


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From ohiobenz at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  6 03:18:25 2002
From: ohiobenz at yahoo.com (Ohio Benz)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 00:18:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Amp
Message-ID: 

Thanks for all the possibilities. In line with this
question - any idea on a make/yr that has this style
connector on MAP (suitable for boost) & air temp sensors?

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From chrism at cnx.net  Fri Dec  6 03:38:10 2002
From: chrism at cnx.net (Chris McKinnon)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 00:38:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] LPG injection
Message-ID: 

All the recent discussion about LPG injection has me wondering if anyone has
a source for LPG injectors? I know that Siemens makes them but they are only
available in 100+ lots and I haven't been able to find anyone who will sell
a few. I almost got some from the Dockland Science park guys but it appears
that they went under (before I ordered thankfully.) I also know that someone
made injectors that went into Chrysler's 96 (or 97) Canadian B Van's with
factory LPG. I checked with Chrysler and the are only $350 CAN each! I know
that Bi-Phase make injectors, but good luck getting any.

Chris


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec  6 05:42:38 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 02:42:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with
Message-ID: 

mmm, I'm not wanting a 'huge' pedal travel and not sure why you
automatically think thats what I want...

I'm wondering if there is some valve arangement that would only
draw back enough to give say 0.5mm pad-disc clearance - obviously
dont want it to go any further for time/safety reasons etc

Some time next year (winter in Aust) I want to drive across nullabor
(about 3000 km) after some major engine mods for an economy run/test
and in preparation wondering if its feasible to add something to
*ensure* disc-pad drag is at a minimum during that long trip,

I suppose I could do it electronically with a vacumm surge tank,
solenoid interlock etc
ie Off a pedal at top switch etc. But I'm wondering if there is
a more elegant solution ?

Rgds

mike



At 08:40 PM 5/12/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>The pads always retract a bit because the disk is never 100% flat and also
>because of the play in the wheel bearing (not sure of the English name for
>those). On racing caliper we use springs behind the pistons to make sure the
>pads always stay in contact with the disk, this gives a consistent pedal
>feeling. With your approach the pedal travel would be huge and inconsistent.
>
>-Axel
>
>----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 2:12 PM
>Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with hydraulic
>reverse valve ?
>
>
>>
>> As we were on the topic of ABS and braking systems etc
>>
>> I wonder if there are any systems that employ some sort of hydraulic
>> short/small "reverse valving" (or some such), to do this:-
>>
>> a. Allow normal brake pressure to apply brakes
>> b. When pedal released, valve pulls/sucks back a small
>> amount of fluid from the calipers to provide more
>> clearance between pads and disk
>> Clearly this would mean the disc pad and caliper piston are
>> connected by more than friction. ie. Many pad brake installers
>> use a little high temperature neutral cure silicone to help
>> reduce brake squeal.
>>
>> Such an approach would hopefully reduce disc and pad wear by forcing
>> the pads to retract (a small amount) from the discs, rather then
>> leaving it to disc perturbation in the absence of hydraulic brake
>> pressure. I've seen on many cars that a pedal release still drags
>> the pads a little...
>>
>> Anyone know of any type of inline valve arrangement which might be
>> suitable, manufacturable, adaptable, usable, tryable ?
>>
>> Rgds
>>
>> Mike
>> Perth, Western Australia
>> Some power/auto stuff here:-  http://www.iinet.net.au/~erazmus
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec  6 05:53:26 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 02:53:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] LPG injection
Message-ID: 

Theres a chap in Perth who used Methanol injectors for methane (CNG)
and I believe they were the largest flow/bore available as he was only
running gas (not liquid), but I wonder if they might be suitable,
the racing methanol injector type that is ?

Rgds

mike


At 08:37 PM 5/12/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>All the recent discussion about LPG injection has me wondering if anyone has
>a source for LPG injectors? I know that Siemens makes them but they are only
>available in 100+ lots and I haven't been able to find anyone who will sell
>a few. I almost got some from the Dockland Science park guys but it appears
>that they went under (before I ordered thankfully.) I also know that someone
>made injectors that went into Chrysler's 96 (or 97) Canadian B Van's with
>factory LPG. I checked with Chrysler and the are only $350 CAN each! I know
>that Bi-Phase make injectors, but good luck getting any.
>
>Chris
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From patc at opposition.tv  Fri Dec  6 06:02:51 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 03:02:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #391 - 13 msgs
Message-ID: 



Message: 10
From: "The McConnell's" 
To: 
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:45:30 -0500
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

"All ABS is not created equal. The ABS on my 93 Suburban was complete JUNK.
Nothing like getting pushed into a wet intersection by your trailer because
you hit the white line and ABS kicked in. It cycled too slowly to be very
effective IMO. The ABS on my '01 Yukon XL is pretty solid and the brakes on
it rock too."

thats not fair, comparing the brakes on a subaru (light little car) pulling
a trailer on wet pavement, to a 8000lb suv.  of course the 8000lb suv isnt
gonna skid in the same situation.



That's funny actually because I had a 2000 Subaru Impreza WRX turbo which
had crap ABS because it cycled too quickly! On dirt and gravel it really
didn't stop at all!! I had a couple of white knuckle moments when coming up
to a stop sign on an unpaved country road.

 Most Australian systems actually pulse quite slowly (compared to countries
that have snow as a standard fature of winter) due to the fact that the
quickest way to stop on dirt is to partially lock the wheels and push a
small berm of dirt in front of the tyre.

This may seem a little strange, especially to Europeans, but we Australians
encounter dirt roads like you guys come across snow and ice. We have to
really look hard for either snow or ice to drive on but dirt roads are
common (small popualation + huge country = crap roads!).


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  6 06:03:30 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 03:03:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with  hydraulic reverse valve ?
Message-ID: 

--- Mike  wrote:

> I'm wondering if there is some valve arangement that
> would only draw back enough to give say 0.5mm pad-
> disc clearance

You were just reminded that that woudl result in a
ridiculously long pedal travel, along with an
inconsistent travel and feel.  All of that is very bad
in braking.

If you have 4-wheel discs, that's a total of 4mm of
clearance.  If you figure a 4:1 ratio between master
cylinder and piston (for two-piston calipers, not that
far off), that's 4mm of extra travel in the pushrod...
 At a 6:1 lever ratio for the pedal (straight manual
brakes, no power assist), that's an extra INCH of
pedal travel.  Definitely quite noticeable.


> ...add something to *ensure* disc-pad drag is at a
> minimum during that long trip,

If it ain't broke...  What do you hope to gain?


=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec  6 06:39:55 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 03:39:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with 
Message-ID: 

No, I think your wires are crossed a bit here...

Moving the caliper back by a short amount does not *have to* 
mean the pedal travel is increased at all. Of course it might
well do that in an unsophisticated arrangement.

Eg. When I service the brakes, the pedal is in its top (normal)
position. Yet when I remove the pads, I can push on the calipers
a little - they will retract - say 1mm, yet the pedal does not
move, the oil clearly goes 'somewhere' ;) Why cant this type
of paradigm be replicated under control when pedal is released
in normal operation,

I am thinking the equivalent should be possible to achieve by some
valving or solenoid arrangement - which obviously is not going to
be directly coupled to the pedal travel in terms of length of
travel, there may well be some
accumulator arrangement which is a bellows/alternate piston ect
which could well work off engine vacuum etc To achieve the desired
result.

I'm not sure what you mean be being reminded - I dont understand this
at all.

All I want is:-

a.	Normal pedal operation when braking
and
b.	Some hydraulic arrangement to retract the pads from the
	discs to *be sure* there is negligible chance of drag
	on those long country trips - with the added proviso that
	it wont push the pedal up by any proportionate amount (which
	is what I assumed is an ideal configuration/requirement).

In terms of 'if it aint broke dont fix it' I think you should be speaking
to religious dogmatic groups who are not interested in how technology
could be improved with a little thought and not to people interested
in alternate solutions and improving on what has gone before.
>From many perspectives steam engines work fine at 7% efficiency, they
aint broke but designers such as myself and many others on this user
group relegate the paradigm of 'if it aint broke dont fix it...' to
the dustbin of victorian deterministic thinking where it belongs and
seems only to be entertained by people with lazy minds who place
disproportionate faith in the abilities of industrial manufacturers
to provide the best technology under all circumstances !


rgds

mike



At 10:05 PM 5/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>--- Mike  wrote:
>
>> I'm wondering if there is some valve arangement that
>> would only draw back enough to give say 0.5mm pad-
>> disc clearance
>
>You were just reminded that that woudl result in a
>ridiculously long pedal travel, along with an
>inconsistent travel and feel.  All of that is very bad
>in braking.
>
>If you have 4-wheel discs, that's a total of 4mm of
>clearance.  If you figure a 4:1 ratio between master
>cylinder and piston (for two-piston calipers, not that
>far off), that's 4mm of extra travel in the pushrod...
> At a 6:1 lever ratio for the pedal (straight manual
>brakes, no power assist), that's an extra INCH of
>pedal travel.  Definitely quite noticeable.
>
>
>> ...add something to *ensure* disc-pad drag is at a
>> minimum during that long trip,
>
>If it ain't broke...  What do you hope to gain?
>
>
>=====
>| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
>|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
>| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
>|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
>|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
>|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
>|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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>
>

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  6 06:51:46 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 03:51:46 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with   hydraulic reverse valve ?
Message-ID: 

--- Mike  wrote:

> Moving the caliper back by a short amount does not
> *have to* mean the pedal travel is increased at all.

Maybe the laws of physics are different in Australia
than here.

Here, to take up air gap, the piston in the caliper
has to move a like amount.  Which means fluid has to
be moved through the lines in sufficient quantity to
push the piston out that much.

I already gave some sample math.

> Eg. When I service the brakes, the pedal is in its
> top (normal) position. Yet when I remove the pads, I
> can push on the calipers a little - they will
> retract - say 1mm, yet the pedal does not move, the
> oil clearly goes 'somewhere' ;)

Not a sensible example to be using to prove your
conclusion.  With little or no pressure in the system,
the master cylinder piston is fully retracted, and has
a mechanical stop.  A bleed from the master cylinder
allows return of excess fluid into the reservoir.

Using your example, what happens the first time you
step on the brake pedal after pushing the caliper
pistons back in?  What makes you think that would be
any different if the pushing (or pulling) was done by
something other than a screwdriver or c-clamp?

> I'm not sure what you mean be being reminded - I
> dont understand this at all.

No offense, but that is becoming increasingly
apparent.  ;)  You will get the same result as you
would prying the pistons back into the calipers during
a pad change, and then stepping on the brakes the
first time -- a long, sloppy pedal travel without full
pressure at full stroke of the master cylinder piston 
(or not, if you are lucky).

> a.	Normal pedal operation when braking
> and
> b.	Some hydraulic arrangement to retract the pads
> from the discs to *be sure* there is negligible
> chance of drag

Those two objectives are directly opposed.

I still don't see why you want no drag from the pads. 
What is it you are hoping to gain?

> In terms of 'if it aint broke dont fix it' I think
> you should be speaking to religious dogmatic groups
> who are not interested in how technology could be
> improved with a little thought and not to people
> interested in alternate solutions and improving on
> what has gone before.

*sigh*  I've had this discussion here before.  If you
want to get worse results with a great deal more
expense and difficulty, more power to you, but don't
expect anyone else to have spent a lot of time doing
it, and thus being able to tell you how.  You'll
probably have to spend a lot of time and money
experimenting to come to the same conclusion that
aircraft components manufacturers did half a century
ago when they came up with production disc brakes that
have stayed static in design for that time period.

*snip remainder of insulting rant from one who
apparently hasn't had to spend time and money
developing something useful*

The point of development, resumably, is to devote an
appropriate amount of time, money and effort to obtain
a given set of results.  If you wish to aim for
different goals, by all means, but insulting people
who take a practical approach certainly isn't going to
help you reach your goals.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  6 07:21:26 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 04:21:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] LPG injection
Message-ID: 

The only high flow methanol injectors I know of are these:

http://www.delphi.com/pdf/racing/multecbottomfeed_meth.pdf

I have tried to buy a few, but it's impossible. Minimum order of 500 or
something like that. I even tried called some race teams. The engines that use
them in CART and IRL racing come packaged from the factory with the injectors,
no luck there.

If anyone knows of a way to get a hold of some of these injectors I would REALLY
appreciate it.

> Theres a chap in Perth who used Methanol injectors for methane (CNG)
> and I believe they were the largest flow/bore available as he was only
> running gas (not liquid), but I wonder if they might be suitable,
> the racing methanol injector type that is ?



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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Fri Dec  6 08:30:05 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 05:30:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with hydraulic reverse valve ?
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 01:49:32PM +0000, Mike wrote:
> mmm, I'm not wanting a 'huge' pedal travel and not sure why you
> automatically think thats what I want...

> I'm wondering if there is some valve arangement that would only
> draw back enough to give say 0.5mm pad-disc clearance - obviously
> dont want it to go any further for time/safety reasons etc

Most disc brakes already tend to do that. There's an O-ring that
"rolls" along with the piston and flexes forward under pressure.
When the pressure is released, it tends to pull the pad back as it
becomes unstressed. The O-ring also serves to keep the piston near
the disc as the brake pads wear.

Any uneven-ness in the brake disc will tend to push back the pads
further so that they're only rubbing at the top. Of course, having
non-warped discs is preferable.

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec  6 08:55:56 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 05:55:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with  
Message-ID: 

 Adam,

WHy are you so damn dogmatic, ironic you are active
on this user group or maybe you are looking at this
and trying to talk me out of even considering something
you are exploring ~`:o

At 10:51 PM 5/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>--- Mike  wrote:
>
>> Moving the caliper back by a short amount does not
>> *have to* mean the pedal travel is increased at all.
>
>Maybe the laws of physics are different in Australia
>than here.

Doubt it, has nothing to do with that paradigm, have you not 
heard of accumulators, solenoids, surge tanks and the like,
this in concert with electronic controls does not mean
relationships have to be fixed - ah la movement of caliper
meaning a certain movement of pedal in symmetry - after
all we use vacuum assisted brakes on most cars and this
doesnt change the laws of physcis - they are exploited
to achieve a result - *obviously* the aim I have is not
fixated on a symmetrical setup...

>Here, to take up air gap, the piston in the caliper
>has to move a like amount.  Which means fluid has to
>be moved through the lines in sufficient quantity to
>push the piston out that much.

Yes *and* it *can* be diverted - who said it has to follow
the same lines and path when the pedal is at its highest
or prior to applying pressure from that 1mm or so of travel
most pedals seem to have to actuate the switch for the lights ?

>I already gave some sample math.

Which is irrelevant unless you are fixated on an unsophisticated
system which doesnt care whether the pedal is at its highest
or any other discontinuous relationship is speculated upon
to give the required result.

>> Eg. When I service the brakes, the pedal is in its
>> top (normal) position. Yet when I remove the pads, I
>> can push on the calipers a little - they will
>> retract - say 1mm, yet the pedal does not move, the
>> oil clearly goes 'somewhere' ;)
>
>Not a sensible example to be using to prove your
>conclusion.  With little or no pressure in the system,
>the master cylinder piston is fully retracted, and has
>a mechanical stop.  A bleed from the master cylinder
>allows return of excess fluid into the reservoir.

I didnt use that to prove anything, I used it to
illustrate that it need not be a symmetrical relationship
and as I also suggested - some combination of accumulators
and the like might well be worthy considering, even more
so when one appreciates there is a switch on the pedal
which goes to the brake lights, this could double as
asolenoid changeover or release an accumulator to send
back the very same qty of oil retracted so one doesnt
have to have the symmetrical oil flow you seem to be fixated
upon as being the concrete issue we cannot change !

The rest of your response is irrelevant and not worthy of
response as you seem to be fixated on a fully symmetrical
unsophisticated arrangement, here was I thinking there might
be a respondent who observed the ABS discussion and might
consider a sophisticated solution rather then someone fixated
on 'if it aint broke dont fix it', sure some brake systems
may well have been static - that does not give reason for
people not think of exploring alternatives, strange you
are on this list then if that is one of your core philosophical
tenets in approach to considering issues requiring speculation
outside normal parameters.

It should be obvious to anyone why one would want to minimise
pad drag on an economy run of 3000 Kms...

So can anyone suggest a discontinuous setup which might
(for example, one possible) return the oil that was retracted to achieve
the minimal additional pedal push prior to full application
and still achieve satisfactory brake operation when required ?

It might well be complex or  a bit more sophisticated then
the 'olden' ways of doing things which you dont seem to want to
entertain - but hey whats wrong with thought along those lines ?

rdgs

mike


>Using your example, what happens the first time you
>step on the brake pedal after pushing the caliper
>pistons back in?  What makes you think that would be
>any different if the pushing (or pulling) was done by
>something other than a screwdriver or c-clamp?
>
>> I'm not sure what you mean be being reminded - I
>> dont understand this at all.
>
>No offense, but that is becoming increasingly
>apparent.  ;)  You will get the same result as you
>would prying the pistons back into the calipers during
>a pad change, and then stepping on the brakes the
>first time -- a long, sloppy pedal travel without full
>pressure at full stroke of the master cylinder piston 
>(or not, if you are lucky).
>
>> a.	Normal pedal operation when braking
>> and
>> b.	Some hydraulic arrangement to retract the pads
>> from the discs to *be sure* there is negligible
>> chance of drag
>
>Those two objectives are directly opposed.
>
>I still don't see why you want no drag from the pads. 
>What is it you are hoping to gain?
>
>> In terms of 'if it aint broke dont fix it' I think
>> you should be speaking to religious dogmatic groups
>> who are not interested in how technology could be
>> improved with a little thought and not to people
>> interested in alternate solutions and improving on
>> what has gone before.
>
>*sigh*  I've had this discussion here before.  If you
>want to get worse results with a great deal more
>expense and difficulty, more power to you, but don't
>expect anyone else to have spent a lot of time doing
>it, and thus being able to tell you how.  You'll
>probably have to spend a lot of time and money
>experimenting to come to the same conclusion that
>aircraft components manufacturers did half a century
>ago when they came up with production disc brakes that
>have stayed static in design for that time period.
>
>*snip remainder of insulting rant from one who
>apparently hasn't had to spend time and money
>developing something useful*
>
>The point of development, resumably, is to devote an
>appropriate amount of time, money and effort to obtain
>a given set of results.  If you wish to aim for
>different goals, by all means, but insulting people
>who take a practical approach certainly isn't going to
>help you reach your goals.
>
>=====
>| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
>|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
>| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
>|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
>|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
>|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
>|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
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>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec  6 08:56:48 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 05:56:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with
Message-ID: 

At 04:27 PM 6/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>> I'm wondering if there is some valve arangement that would only
>> draw back enough to give say 0.5mm pad-disc clearance - obviously
>> dont want it to go any further for time/safety reasons etc
>
>Most disc brakes already tend to do that. There's an O-ring that
>"rolls" along with the piston and flexes forward under pressure.
>When the pressure is released, it tends to pull the pad back as it
>becomes unstressed. The O-ring also serves to keep the piston near
>the disc as the brake pads wear.

Brilliant - I didnt realise this was inherent in the construction,
do I take it there might be a simple way to extend it somewhat.
>
>Any uneven-ness in the brake disc will tend to push back the pads
>further so that they're only rubbing at the top. Of course, having
>non-warped discs is preferable.

Yeah true ~`:, thats one of the things on the list,



Kind Regards  ~`:o)

Mike Massen
Network Power Systems
Perth, Western Australia  Ph/Fx +61 8 9444 8961, Mb +61 438 048961

Power system in Jungle, Twin tyre car, Differential gauge experiment
http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/index.html

Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes
academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that
theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic.

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From klox at juno.com  Fri Dec  6 09:22:43 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 06:22:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.
Message-ID: 

well, anything you burn produces CO2, and contributes to global warming. 
That's why I'm partial to solar-generated hydrogen fuel.

> This is a technology which has huge potential for the world and is 
> one of
> the most sensible alternatives to providing transportation for 
> everyone
> without destroying the atmosphere.
> 
> 
> Pat Cahill
> Smartlub


________________________________________________________________
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  6 09:48:55 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 06:48:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with    hydraulic reverse valve ?
Message-ID: 

--- Mike  wrote:

> WHy are you so damn dogmatic,

I'm not.  I've simply wasted too much time in my
career on blind alleys.  After a while, you learn
where they are, by applying basic principles.

If you want to chase them, go do so.  Stop insulting
people for questioning your point.  Just go do it, and
find out for yourself.

Good day, sir.  No more time for your argument.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Dec  6 11:29:46 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 08:29:46 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] AMP connectors
Message-ID: 

I sell the AMP 2 , 3 and 7 pin connectors all the time with the boots as well..
If anyone is interested let me know off line and I will check pricing.
Dave

kd694j0538f at hotmail.com wrote:
> 
> It is AMP's "Junior Timer" series. The 2 pin you can get from VW. The 3 & 4
> pin is a Europe only part and I had no luck finding one. I did get AMP to
> sample me for free on the 3-pin connectors.
> 
> FR Wilk
> ________________________________
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ohio Benz" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 3:11 AM
> Subject: [Diy_efi] AMP connectors
> 
> > Could someone provide the style name of the AMP
> > connector used on Bosch fuel injectors? and a good
> > source where to purchase male & female versions of 2,3
> > & 4 pin connectors for an automotive wiring harness?Thanks
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> 
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From Tlsalt at aol.com  Fri Dec  6 13:17:40 2002
From: Tlsalt at aol.com (Tlsalt at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 10:17:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with     hydraulic reverse val
Message-ID: 

Mike wrote,

So can anyone suggest a discontinuous setup which might
(for example, one possible) return the oil that was retracted to achieve
the minimal additional pedal push prior to full application
and still achieve satisfactory brake operation when required ?

It might well be complex or  a bit more sophisticated then
the 'olden' ways of doing things which you dont seem to want to
entertain - but hey whats wrong with thought along those lines ?

Hello Mike,

If you are serious about this subject, I suggest you take a look at the 
original Dunlop disc brake calipers fitted to Jaguar cars in the late 1950's. 
The Dunlop cylinders have a spring loaded "retractor pin" at the bottom of 
the cylinder that fits into a "retractor bush" in the center of the back of 
the piston.  When the brakes are applied, hydraulic pressure pushes the 
pistons forward and the retractor pin goes along for the ride, tensioning the 
spring. When the hydraulic pressure drops, the spring pulls the retractor 
pin, piston and pad away from the rotor surface.  The pads have a "T" shaped 
slot in the metal backing plate and are mechanically  connected to the 
pistons.  This system was used up until 1963, when they discovered that it 
made no difference in pad wear, or noise and it was abandoned.

Paul

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From axel_rietschin at compuserve.com  Fri Dec  6 13:30:01 2002
From: axel_rietschin at compuserve.com (Axel Rietschin)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 10:30:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with    hydraulic reverse valve ?
Message-ID: 

> It should be obvious to anyone why one would want to minimise
> pad drag on an economy run of 3000 Kms...

How much gain anyway, and how much weight added to the car by your
"accumulators, solenoids, surge tanks and the like, this in concert with
electronic controls "?


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From rjs at bnl.gov  Fri Dec  6 13:36:29 2002
From: rjs at bnl.gov (Ron Schroeder)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 10:36:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.
Message-ID: 

And Biodiesel is a soler generated hydrocarbon fuel.  ;)

The CO2 is closed cycle.

Ron Schroeder
Brookhaven National Lab
Building 911A
Upton NY 11973
631 344-4561

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Byrd" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.


> well, anything you burn produces CO2, and contributes to global warming. 
> That's why I'm partial to solar-generated hydrogen fuel.
> 
> > This is a technology which has huge potential for the world and is 
> > one of
> > the most sensible alternatives to providing transportation for 
> > everyone
> > without destroying the atmosphere.
> > 
> > 
> > Pat Cahill
> > Smartlub

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From rjs at bnl.gov  Fri Dec  6 13:40:48 2002
From: rjs at bnl.gov (Ron Schroeder)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 10:40:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with  hydraulic reverse valve ?
Message-ID: 

How about drum brakes?

Another possibility would be to cut a taper in the piston groove for the
seal so it flexes more and retracts more with removal of hydraulic pressure.
Make the fluid side of the groove 75 degrees instead of 90 degrees?

Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
day 631 344-4561
nite 631 286-5677


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with hydraulic
reverse valve ?


> mmm, I'm not wanting a 'huge' pedal travel and not sure why you
> automatically think thats what I want...
>
> I'm wondering if there is some valve arangement that would only
> draw back enough to give say 0.5mm pad-disc clearance - obviously
> dont want it to go any further for time/safety reasons etc
>
> Some time next year (winter in Aust) I want to drive across nullabor
> (about 3000 km) after some major engine mods for an economy run/test
> and in preparation wondering if its feasible to add something to
> *ensure* disc-pad drag is at a minimum during that long trip,
>
> I suppose I could do it electronically with a vacumm surge tank,
> solenoid interlock etc
> ie Off a pedal at top switch etc. But I'm wondering if there is
> a more elegant solution ?
>
> Rgds
>
> mike

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From rjs at bnl.gov  Fri Dec  6 15:26:16 2002
From: rjs at bnl.gov (Ron Schroeder)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:26:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with     hydraulic reverse val
Message-ID: 

Hi Mike,

You might want to try a totally manual master cyl with out the compensation
bleed hole.  Total manual adjustment of your brakes but it may get you the
retraction (and minimum weight) that you need.

Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
day 631 344-4561
nite 631 286-5677

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec  6 15:51:06 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:51:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with   
Message-ID: 

At 01:34 AM 12/6/02 -0800, you wrote:
>--- Mike  wrote:
>
>> WHy are you so damn dogmatic,
>
>I'm not.  I've simply wasted too much time in my
>career on blind alleys.  After a while, you learn
>where they are, by applying basic principles.

mmmm, OK - Well you did seem fixated on one issue, perhaps
in due course that will change ;)

I'm sorry you think you have wasted time following blind alleys,
I guess thats why we have this user group and others like it
- so we can ask more or less open-ended questions without
assuming people will be fixed on one view and having to allude
to their apparent hypocrisy - one way or the other  ;-)

*grin*

>If you want to chase them, go do so.  Stop insulting
>people for questioning your point.  Just go do it, and
>find out for yourself.

Hey - all I did was criticise (in kind) your criticism, if you
think that was insulting then bad luck - dont throw comments like
'if it aint broke dont fix it' because that is not consistent with
the aims of a user group to consider alternatives i is it ?

Frankly though, I dont see how I insulted you by paradying your
comment of 'if it aint broke dont fix it', because to me that
is the high end of irony when we are looking to learn different
approaches which might well have a practical outcome, who knows, but
for me all it takes is focus on the issue and a little time before
any sort of practical experiments.

>Good day, sir.  No more time for your argument.

OK, thats fine, feel free to bow out, Bernd did suggest there
was something inherent in the 'O' ring which might well be more
than satisfactory - I guess I will spend an hour or so this
weekend taking a closer look at my caliper setup to see how
much this might be extended, if - that is, its worthwhile, but
hey we aint at the cost benefit analysis stage yet are we ;-)

*grin*

Rgds

Mike



>
>=====
>| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
>|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
>| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
>|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
>|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
>|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
>|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
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>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec  6 15:57:51 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:57:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with    
Message-ID: 

mmmmm, Tah,

Well I'm serious up to the point (so far) of appreciating earlier
efforts in this direction and will certainly follow up your lead,
and from that perspective I'm interested in what metric was used
to gauge whether it was worthwhile or not - with all sorts of
inherent assumptions about wear versus fuel consumption delta over
what period of time etc. It does sound like a neat and practical idea
which saves intercepting hydraulic fluid and all the complications that
could entail, thanks again for the lead, will check it over weekend,
next thing to check is the issue of light greased vs sealed oil bearings
for the wheels 

*grin*

Thanks for going to the trouble to describe this :)

Rgds ~`:o)

Mike



At 08:08 AM 12/6/02 EST, you wrote:
>If you are serious about this subject, I suggest you take a look at the 
>original Dunlop disc brake calipers fitted to Jaguar cars in the late
1950's. 
>The Dunlop cylinders have a spring loaded "retractor pin" at the bottom of 
>the cylinder that fits into a "retractor bush" in the center of the back of 
>the piston.  When the brakes are applied, hydraulic pressure pushes the 
>pistons forward and the retractor pin goes along for the ride, tensioning
the 
>spring. When the hydraulic pressure drops, the spring pulls the retractor 
>pin, piston and pad away from the rotor surface.  The pads have a "T" shaped 
>slot in the metal backing plate and are mechanically  connected to the 
>pistons.  This system was used up until 1963, when they discovered that it 
>made no difference in pad wear, or noise and it was abandoned.
>
>Paul
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec  6 16:09:26 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:09:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with   
Message-ID: 

At 02:24 PM 12/6/02 +0100, you wrote:
>> It should be obvious to anyone why one would want to minimise
>> pad drag on an economy run of 3000 Kms...
>
>How much gain anyway, and how much weight added to the car by your
>"accumulators, solenoids, surge tanks and the like, this in concert with
>electronic controls "?

I have absolutely no idea (at this stage) but as I've just discovered from
another member on this list there could well be a better method which I am
seriously interested in learning more about, though I must say the maximum
anticipated weight (and I am guessing here of 5Kg) may well be
negligible versus continuous pad wear over that distance. Weight of that
order doesnt seem to be as important as tire/tyre inflation over that
distance and running twin tires all round I am more cognisant of that issue...


Rgds

Mike
Perth, Western Australia
Some power/auto stuff here:-  http://www.iinet.net.au/~erazmus


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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Fri Dec  6 16:25:26 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:25:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with    	  hydraulic reverse val
Message-ID: 

At 11:59 PM 12/6/02, Mike wrote:

>next thing to check is the issue of light greased vs sealed oil bearings
>for the wheels 
>
>*grin*
>
>Thanks for going to the trouble to describe this :)
>
>Rgds ~`:o)
>
>Mike
>
For reduced wheel bearing drag in an economy run, one might try what the
Nascar boys do for qualifying--10 wt or light synthetic oil in the wheel
bearings, no grease.

Greg



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From jengeltx at yahoo.com  Fri Dec  6 17:15:55 2002
From: jengeltx at yahoo.com (Jeffrey Engel)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 14:15:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] LPG injection
Message-ID: 

Have you talked to Russ Collins?

www.rceng.com

Jeff Engel
--- Derek  wrote:
> The only high flow methanol injectors I know of are
> these:
> 
>
http://www.delphi.com/pdf/racing/multecbottomfeed_meth.pdf
> 
> I have tried to buy a few, but it's impossible.
> Minimum order of 500 or
> something like that. I even tried called some race
> teams. The engines that use
> them in CART and IRL racing come packaged from the
> factory with the injectors,
> no luck there.
> 
> If anyone knows of a way to get a hold of some of
> these injectors I would REALLY
> appreciate it.
> 
> > Theres a chap in Perth who used Methanol injectors
> for methane (CNG)
> > and I believe they were the largest flow/bore
> available as he was only
> > running gas (not liquid), but I wonder if they
> might be suitable,
> > the racing methanol injector type that is ?
> 
> 
> 
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From phil at injec.com  Fri Dec  6 17:38:28 2002
From: phil at injec.com (Phil Lamovie)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 14:38:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] LPG injection
Message-ID: 


Try using normal TBI injectors from Delphi.

I have run some for over 1000 hrs in a test engine
without any sign of distress.

The only caveat is that over 125 psi or so you will have
to boost the voltage with a switch mode or they won't open.

HTH

phil


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From sthl at gmx.de  Fri Dec  6 18:20:00 2002
From: sthl at gmx.de (Stephan Helbig)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 15:20:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie Van- more details:...
Message-ID: 

Hi Steve & others,

I've been running my car (Golf 2 GTD) on vegoil for about 2.5 years now.
Before I had a Volvo 240 estate (VW 6 cyl.) which also drank 100%
vegoil. So I'm into the subject for about 4 years now. Many Germans do
it here as it is mich cheaper that fossile diesel.
Just a few notes on what has been posted here:
1.) Vegoil is not biodiesel! There is 
-fresh vegoil (cold pressed or refined) from any kind of oil plants,
mostly rapeseed or sunflower.
-used vegoil (which you can get from your local Chineese or so). it must
be filtered to at least 5?m.
-biodiesel, which is de-esterified vegoil. This is usually done under
much energy consumption. Biodiesel dissolutes any rubber parts that are
not viton meterial (usually known as biodiesel-proof). This might attack
your fuel lines & injector pump sealings and make them leaking.

2.) There are two ways of running a diesel on straight vegoil (SVO) or
waste vegoil (WVO):
-two tank system: Have a second tank, solenoid valves and start your
engine on diesel until it is warmed up. Then let the vegoil run through
a heat exchanger (in-line with coolant water car heating line) into your
injector pump. But: you need to flush the pump before turning the engine
off.
-single tank system: consists of a heat exchanger, wider fuel lines
(10mm), starting aid (longer glow plugs, after start heating relais).
Disadvantage: When it's colder than -5?C you should ad some diesel to
keep it liquid.
- last but not least:**Mercedes prechamber diesels** DON'T need any
conversion! Raise the pressure of the injectors by 20bar and run it on
100% vegoil. They have an inline pump and start usually quite well with
the OEM preheating system. See: http://www.rerorust.de (-->click English
Flag).

3.) Problems:
-engines with Bosch distributor pumps: Don't run them on more than 1000
1/min (= 2000 rpm engine speed) until they get warm fuel. Otherwise the
pump pistin can seize due to insufficient lubrication of the high
viscose oil.
-engines with Lucas/CAV distributor pumps: Be careful. They tend to
seize. replace them by a suitable Bosch model or take care the fuel is
alsways filtered to at last 1?m!
-direct injectors: still need a two tank system. The problem is that
hole type injectors don't spray the cold (high viscose) fuel well enough
so that unburneed fuel gets between cylinder & piston which can cause
engine seizures. So only run it on *hot* vegoil (at least 70?C) and
start on diesel!

Why I got on the list here is actually this topic: I'm trying to do some
"vegoil- chiptuning" i.e. adapting the maps to special needs of cold
starts on vegoil. I want to extend the preheating time, advance the fuel
injection on startup and maybe get an engine speed limit until the
coolant water is hot enough to heat the vegoil.

Ok that was a lot of text. A few links finally and then I'll disappear
again into a silent reader ;-)

http://veggiepower.org.uk
http://pub35.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=2953871281&cpv=1
(Forum)
http://www.northwales.org.uk/bio-power/ (besides other things: Info on
Tax situation in GB- how to get registered with Customs & Excise)
http://www.goatindustries.co.uk/fuelsdatabase/ (Vegoil Car Database)
http://www.fmso.de (a German Forum with a big database)
http://www.fatty-fuels.de (another Germany forum)
http://biodiesel.vtrekker.com/ (a Swedish site)
http://www.betavalve.com/ (Soleniod valve supplier)
http://personal.inet.fi/yritys/ekolaiho/mustarddiesel.html (a mustard
oil project from Finnland)
http://home.t-online.de/home/strutzberg/ (a German TDI conversion)

Ok enough for today. It's a bit off topic here so I hope it helps. If
not, contact me personally or have a look on my homepage.

Stephan

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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Sat Dec  7 00:43:42 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:43:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 08:29:14AM -0500, Ron Schroeder wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Eric Byrd" 

> > well, anything you burn produces CO2, and contributes to global warming. 
> > That's why I'm partial to solar-generated hydrogen fuel.

> > > This is a technology which has huge potential for the world
> > > and is one of the most sensible alternatives to providing
> > > transportation for everyone without destroying the atmosphere.

Technically speaking; it won't destroy the atmosphere - plants tend
to like CO2! So if you want a greener planet, burn more carbon-based
fuels. Within a couple of centuries you can be pretty sure that all
those pesky oxygen-breathing organisms will die and plants will,
once again, rule the Earth.

> And Biodiesel is a soler generated hydrocarbon fuel.  ;)

> The CO2 is closed cycle.

So it normal mineral-oil sourced diesel. It's just taken 100 million
years longer to complete the cycle.

-- 
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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Sat Dec  7 00:53:03 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:53:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction ...
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 09:16:09AM -0600, Greg Hermann wrote:
> At 11:59 PM 12/6/02, Mike wrote:

> >next thing to check is the issue of light greased vs sealed oil bearings
> >for the wheels 

> >*grin*

> >Thanks for going to the trouble to describe this :)

> For reduced wheel bearing drag in an economy run, one might try
> what the Nascar boys do for qualifying--10 wt or light synthetic
> oil in the wheel bearings, no grease.

Dry, with no seals is even lower friction as there's no viscous drag
on the rolling. I don't think that the normal wheel bearing will do
3000km though... not the way bearings are loaded and sized for road
cars. Heavier grease lube acts more like a gear-oil by helping to
distribute contact pressure resulting in longer life.

If you want to try it out, strip down the bearing an wipe it "dry"
before re-assembly. There are some lubricants that can be used for
dry-lube such as spray-on PTFE or silicone; or even gun-oil such as
Ballistol. All of these tend to leave a stick-free surface.

Coincidentally, I'm working on the design of wheel hubs for a solar
race car.

The reason for running some lubrication is because the diameter of
the inner race is different to that of the outer race so the rolling
element has to slip against one or both surfaces. It follows that
the closer the circumferences of the races, the lower the amount of
slip - been thinking about this sort of thing a lot over the past
couple of weeks.

Then there's also the matter of lubricating the cage...

-- 
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From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Dec  7 01:22:16 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 22:22:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with hydraulic reverse 
Message-ID: 



Mike wrote:
> 
> No, I think your wires are crossed a bit here...
> 
> Moving the caliper back by a short amount does not *have to*
> mean the pedal travel is increased at all. Of course it might
> well do that in an unsophisticated arrangement.
> 
> Eg. When I service the brakes, the pedal is in its top (normal)
> position. Yet when I remove the pads, I can push on the calipers
> a little - they will retract - say 1mm, yet the pedal does not
> move, the oil clearly goes 'somewhere' ;) Why cant this type
> of paradigm be replicated under control when pedal is released
> in normal operation,

There are many newer GM cars that use a "quick takeup" master cylinder. 
The caliper piston seals are designed to pull the piston back slightly on
release of the breakes to reduce drag.  The master effectively incorporates
a 2 stage pump, in that the initial portion of pedal travel is pushing a
large volume of fluid at a lower pressure.  As the pressure increases, a
smaller (read "the usual" ) volume of fluid is moved by the high pressure
pump.

The fluid does go "somewhere."  It returns to the master cylinder just like
any traditional brake system.

> 
> I am thinking the equivalent should be possible to achieve by some
> valving or solenoid arrangement - which obviously is not going to
> be directly coupled to the pedal travel in terms of length of
> travel, there may well be some
> accumulator arrangement which is a bellows/alternate piston ect
> which could well work off engine vacuum etc To achieve the desired
> result.

Don't bother re-inventing the wheel.  Change the master cylinder.  Quick
takeup types are sometimes identifiable by a portion of the casting that
makes up the body of the cylinder near the mounting flange being larger
diameter than the rest.  They should be in junkyards aroud the country. 
The design is over ten years old.
Shannen

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From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Dec  7 01:34:09 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 22:34:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with    	  hydraulic 
Message-ID: 



Greg Hermann wrote:

> For reduced wheel bearing drag in an economy run, one might try what the
> Nascar boys do for qualifying--10 wt or light synthetic oil in the wheel
> bearings, no grease.
> 
> Greg

DFL, ceramic rollers, and cooling fins for insurance.

Shannen

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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Sat Dec  7 01:42:54 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 22:42:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction ...
Message-ID: 


>
>The reason for running some lubrication is because the diameter of
>the inner race is different to that of the outer race so the rolling
>element has to slip against one or both surfaces. It follows that
>the closer the circumferences of the races, the lower the amount of
>slip - been thinking about this sort of thing a lot over the past
>couple of weeks.

Huh??? There is no slip between the rolling elements in tapered roller bearings.
>
>Then there's also the matter of lubricating the cage...

Which is the entire reason for needing lube.

Greg
>
>--
>/"\ Bernd Felsche



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From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Dec  7 01:42:55 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 22:42:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction ...
Message-ID: 


Bernd Felsche wrote:
> The reason for running some lubrication is because the diameter of
> the inner race is different to that of the outer race so the rolling
> element has to slip against one or both surfaces. It follows that
> the closer the circumferences of the races, the lower the amount of
> slip - been thinking about this sort of thing a lot over the past
> couple of weeks.

At one time the ads for GM wheel bearings read "Nothing rolls like a ball."
This was around the same time that barrel ground roller bearings could be
found in larger vehicles.  Both designs were supposed to offer less
resistance, and both cost more to produce.

I do know that the older cars (1950's) with drum brakes and ball type wheel
bearings seem to have less drag, as watched with the vehicle on the hoist
and the wheels in the air.  I also know that US manufacturers switched back
to ball bearings in most vehicles during the '80s, about the same time they
introduced the lockup torque converter and reduced drag disc brake systems.

Shannen

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From Axel_Rietschin at compuserve.com  Sat Dec  7 03:43:54 2002
From: Axel_Rietschin at compuserve.com (Axel Rietschin)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 00:43:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with     hydraulic reverse valve ?
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 


> "continuous pad wear"

What makes you think there is such wear? The most infime disk warp (i.e. the
one all disks have) will retract the pads just a bit and the remaining
friction is negligible, if any. Try something: take any standard car (cold),
drive it at speed for a while and then let it stop, all without ever
touching the brakes, now check the disk temperature. I'm willing to bet they
are completely cold.


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From klox at juno.com  Sat Dec  7 06:38:31 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 03:38:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:29:14 -0500 Ron Schroeder  writes:
> And Biodiesel is a soler generated hydrocarbon fuel.  ;)
> 
> The CO2 is closed cycle.


I don't think it's that simple.  McDonald's is going to do business and
make french fries no matter what we do, so there will always be lots of
used french fry oil, as long as no more than a few people use it to run
their cars.  But the cycle of growing food, tending it, harvesting it,
processing the oil out of it to burn in cars is not solar powered, and on
the scale of use that people use petrodiesel, Biodiesel would not be
solar generated, nor all the CO2 closed cycle.  That raises the question
"how much effort does it take to produce a billion barrels of petrodiesel
vs. biodiesel?"  These little hidden sources of non-renewableness reduce
the feasibility of so-called "clean" energy sources.

Whereas I know that if I use solar power to split water, that is closed
cycle.

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From tigers at bserv.com  Sat Dec  7 17:20:04 2002
From: tigers at bserv.com (Bob Tom)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 14:20:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Distributor cap Q
Message-ID: 

Hi

This may not be an appropriate for this list but, with the knowledge
base, I'd thought that I would try after coming up pretty well
empty-handed looking for an answer.

I had been experiencing bucking/hesitation/misfiring on the track
whenever the engine was above the 5500 rpm range.  I discovered
that the contacts inside the cap and on the rotor were coated
with hard, thick chalky deposits.  This is the first time that I've
seen a condition like this (been involved with autos. in one way
or another since the mid-50s).  I've seen burnt and pitted contacts
and contacts with mildew on them but nothing like this.

The contacts are brass.  My ignition is stock with the exception
of using copper Autolites one range colder than recommended
and about .003" less than recommended gap.

Does anyone have an idea what this deposit is and what would
cause it?  Thanks in advance.

Bob Tom                 Ontario, Canada
97 Dakota CC Sport, 5.2L, 4x2, 44RE, 3.92SG, 4,080 lb (truck, driver, 3/8 tank)
Dyno:  SAE corrected RW:    HP:  243.1 @ 5500      TQ:  259.5 @ 4250
            Calculated Flywheel:  HP:  313.7 @ 5500       TQ:  334.8 @ 4250
Track PB:   ET   14.313       Trap speed   95.92


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From poulson at frontiernet.net  Sat Dec  7 17:47:29 2002
From: poulson at frontiernet.net (Mike Poulson)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 14:47:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Distributor cap Q
Message-ID: 

I think the deposits you describe are called fret. I have seen many caps and
rotors with those same deposits stuck to the electrodes. I think it is
caused by oxidation of the metals under high heat conditions. As far as I
know, this condition is normal wear. I usually chissel it off with a screw
driver blade.


Mike aka Terrible Ted

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Tom" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Distributor cap Q


> Hi
>
> This may not be an appropriate for this list but, with the knowledge
> base, I'd thought that I would try after coming up pretty well
> empty-handed looking for an answer.
>
> I had been experiencing bucking/hesitation/misfiring on the track
> whenever the engine was above the 5500 rpm range.  I discovered
> that the contacts inside the cap and on the rotor were coated
> with hard, thick chalky deposits.  This is the first time that I've
> seen a condition like this (been involved with autos. in one way
> or another since the mid-50s).  I've seen burnt and pitted contacts
> and contacts with mildew on them but nothing like this.
>
> The contacts are brass.  My ignition is stock with the exception
> of using copper Autolites one range colder than recommended
> and about .003" less than recommended gap.
>
> Does anyone have an idea what this deposit is and what would
> cause it?  Thanks in advance.
>
> Bob Tom                 Ontario, Canada
> 97 Dakota CC Sport, 5.2L, 4x2, 44RE, 3.92SG, 4,080 lb (truck, driver, 3/8
tank)
> Dyno:  SAE corrected RW:    HP:  243.1 @ 5500      TQ:  259.5 @ 4250
>             Calculated Flywheel:  HP:  313.7 @ 5500       TQ:  334.8 @
4250
> Track PB:   ET   14.313       Trap speed   95.92
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  7 19:59:51 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:59:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Distributor cap Q
Message-ID: 

--- Bob Tom  wrote:

> I had been experiencing bucking/hesitation/misfiring
> on the track whenever the engine was above the 5500
> rpm range.  I discovered that the contacts inside
> the cap and on the rotor were coated with hard,
> thick chalky deposits.

I've seen this, from arcing due to spark advance being
such that the spark fires before complete contact is
made between the cap terminal and the rotor terminal. 
IF your ignition TIMING is not set by the distributor
body (i.e., if you have solid-state ignition and the
pickup is not in or on the distributor body), rotating
the body so the contacts line up better at the time of
full advance spark would be my advice.  And of course,
replace the cap and rotor.  ;)

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From sy2th at direcway.com  Sat Dec  7 22:18:16 2002
From: sy2th at direcway.com (Barry)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:18:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Distributor cap Q
Message-ID: 

Do you mean the tip of the rotor & the terminals in the cap around the 
outside?  In every distributor I've ever seen, there exists a gap between 
these two parts.  There never IS any contact between them.  Gaps can vary 
between .010" and .095" (measured on my Sy 4.3L) depending on what cap / 
rotor brand you use.  Great quality control, eh?

Barry - Sy#26
Bangor. MI

At 12:03 PM 12/7/02 -0800, Adam Wade wrote:

>I've seen this, from arcing due to spark advance being
>such that the spark fires before complete contact is
>made between the cap terminal and the rotor terminal.
>IF your ignition TIMING is not set by the distributor
>body (i.e., if you have solid-state ignition and the
>pickup is not in or on the distributor body), rotating
>the body so the contacts line up better at the time of
>full advance spark would be my advice.  And of course,
>replace the cap and rotor.  ;)


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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Sat Dec  7 22:34:58 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:34:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] off topic funny link.
Message-ID: 


http://www.tennesspeed.net/gallery/data/510/178picture-med.jpg 

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From kent.martin at voxson.com.au  Sat Dec  7 22:34:58 2002
From: kent.martin at voxson.com.au (Kent Martin)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:34:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] VR4 diagnostic trouble codes
Message-ID: 

I know it's a little off topic but I am looking for diagnostic codes
for a Mitsubishi VR4 Galant about 1990-92. 
I have fitted this engine to a Mitsubishi Cordia and have mostly
completed an ECU based on a M16c/62. to run it.
Unfortunately I can't fit my controller until I get the car complied which
requires
the original ECU so I'm forced to get this one working correctly.
The engine had been working correctly but has been intermittently 
breaking down and dumping massive quantities if fuel into the cylinders
making the car very undriveable. The codes might point me in the direction
of the fault a lot quicker. Please respond to
k_n_martin at hotmail.com if you have any idea where I might find them.
Thanks,

Kent.

Main Switch: +61 7 3868 1277	Fax: +61 7 3868 1370	Home Page:
www.voxson.com
Local Time :	GMT + 10 hours 

Disclaimer - This e-mail is intended only for the addressee(s) named
above. This e-mail may contain confidential or privileged information.
No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any
mis-transmission. If you are not a named addressee, or the person
responsible for delivering the message to the named addressee, please
telephone the sender immediately on the number above and delete the
message. You must not disclose, copy or rely on any part of this
correspondence if you are not the intended recipient.

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From patc4 at optushome.com.au  Sat Dec  7 22:35:03 2002
From: patc4 at optushome.com.au (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:35:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Motronic MS2.2
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C29D4A.44E2CC10
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Does anyone know how to get into a Motronic MS2.2? Owing to the fact that
Bosch Motorsport discontinued this model a few years ago I am having real
trouble finding a CANCARD and cable for it.

I have all the software (VM3000 and WinDARAB) but can't get into it to do
anything.

Patrick Cahill

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C29D4A.44E2CC10
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef;
	name="winmail.dat"
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From richm at ntlworld.com  Sat Dec  7 22:37:10 2002
From: richm at ntlworld.com (Richard M)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:37:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] AMP connectors
Message-ID: 

Injector connectors are designated 'Junior Timer' or 'Junior Power Timer' -
either will fit the injector, but they are a slightly different design with
different crimp terminals. Power Timer terminals are more robust, designed
for higher current capacity.
The male mating parts are designated 'MIC4'

All of these different types are available in 2,3,4,5,7 ways, and a
selection of options in higher numbers with multiple rows.
Incidentally, the 2-row 15, 25 and 35 way ECU connectors are the same Junior
Timer family.

hope this helps

Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ohio Benz" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 11:11 AM
Subject: [Diy_efi] AMP connectors


> Could someone provide the style name of the AMP
> connector used on Bosch fuel injectors? and a good
> source where to purchase male & female versions of 2,3
> & 4 pin connectors for an automotive wiring harness?Thanks
>
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From sales at desertrats.co.uk  Sat Dec  7 22:37:44 2002
From: sales at desertrats.co.uk (Glynne Jones)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:37:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I want to build a fuel/ignition system for a 4 cylinder petrol engine. =
For this I require a programmable ECU. I could buy one from DTA or =
someone similar but this would defeat the object which is to keep costs =
as low as possible. How can I build one? what do I use?. where do I get =
the bits?  Glynne Jones.  E-mail  info at desertrats.co.uk


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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I want to build a fuel/ignition system for a 4 =
cylinder=20
petrol engine. For this I require a programmable ECU. I could buy one =
from DTA=20
or someone similar but this would defeat the object which is to keep =
costs as=20
low as possible. How can I build one? what do I use?. where do I get the =

bits?  Glynne Jones.  E-mail  info at desertrats.co.uk
=


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From patc4 at optushome.com.au  Sat Dec  7 22:40:37 2002
From: patc4 at optushome.com.au (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:40:37 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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>I don't think it's that simple.  McDonald's is going to do business and
>make french fries no matter what we do, so there will always be lots of
>used french fry oil, as long as no more than a few people use it to run
>their cars.  But the cycle of growing food, tending it, harvesting it,
>processing the oil out of it to burn in cars is not solar powered, and on
>the scale of use that people use petrodiesel, Biodiesel would not be
>solar generated, nor all the CO2 closed cycle.  That raises the question
>"how much effort does it take to produce a billion barrels of petrodiesel
>vs. biodiesel?"  These little hidden sources of non-renewableness reduce
>the feasibility of so-called "clean" energy sources.

>Whereas I know that if I use solar power to split water, that is closed
>cycle.

The amount of effort needed to produce a billion barrels of biodiesel would
be a bit more efficient to a billion barrels of petro diesel. I say this
using the batch/catalyst method of production for the biodiesel. As I think
I metnioned in an earlier post, there are newer and much more efficient
processes which are now coming out of the experimental phase.

As for hidden non-renewableness in either batch or flow type biodiesel,
there are none.

The closed carbon cycle referred to is in fact, fact. Someone mentioned that
petrodiesel is also a closed cycle, it just takes millions of years. My
point exactly. A lot of the atmospherical damage currently being wrought on
the panet is due to the fact that we are digging up carbon which has sat
underground for millenia and are now throwing it into the atmosphere. We
then expect our current level of vegetation to clean this mess up for us
(ala the Greenfleet idea in Asutralia) and then panic when it doesn't.

The process of growing the food, harvesting the food and processing the oil
is still a better proposition than pumping out an oil well shipping it to a
refinery (ask the Spanish what a great idea this can be) refining and
cracking it through several processes (most taking a huge amount of heat)
and finally shipping it off to market.

I negelected to mention the problems of setting up an oil well to start
with.

Believe me, I am not the type of person you would normally find advocating
"Green" alternatives (Iam a race engineer by day) and I agree that some of
these alternatives can be a backward step. However, the long term
implications of biodiesel and the short term simplicity of implementation
makes it a very attractive alternative to any other current fuel.

Patrick Cahill


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From sales at desertrats.co.uk  Sat Dec  7 22:43:26 2002
From: sales at desertrats.co.uk (Glynne Jones)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:43:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C29E34.2CC39B60
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I want to build a fuel/ignition system for a 4 cylinder petrol engine. =
For this I require a programmable ECU. I could buy one from DTA or =
someone similar but this would defeat the object which is to keep costs =
as low as possible. How can I build one? what do I use?. where do I get =
the bits?  Glynne Jones. UK

 E-mail  info at desertrats.co.uk


------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C29E34.2CC39B60
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I want to build a fuel/ignition system for a 4 =
cylinder=20
petrol engine. For this I require a programmable ECU. I could buy one =
from DTA=20
or someone similar but this would defeat the object which is to keep =
costs as=20
low as possible. How can I build one? what do I use?. where do I get the =

bits?  Glynne Jones. UK


 E-mail  info at desertrats.co.uk


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From Sean.Richards at diageo.com  Sat Dec  7 22:43:38 2002
From: Sean.Richards at diageo.com (Richards, Sean)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:43:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction
Message-ID: 

need to modify a digifant efi to use a 16v engine
anyone have any tricks

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From sfwilliams at comcast.net  Sat Dec  7 22:53:33 2002
From: sfwilliams at comcast.net (Scott F. Williams)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:53:33 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction
Message-ID: 

Sean, the main thing that you'll have to do is install a 16v-appropriate
fuel rail: http://www.rossmachineracing.com/16vfuelrail.html To reuse your
Bosch fuel pressure regulator, you'll have to use an adaptor (which is
available from the same website). Anyway, the 8v unit is too short and will
foul the intake manifold. Chipping the ECU after that is an excellent idea.
Otherwise your rev limit will be too low, mixture will likely be lean,
amongst other issues, etc.

If your questions are VW-specific and not engineering related, you are
welcome to contact me off list.
--
Scott F. Williams
NJ Scirocco nut
'99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."

> need to modify a digifant efi to use a 16v engine
> anyone have any tricks



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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  7 22:57:48 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:57:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Distributor cap Q
Message-ID: 

--- Barry  wrote:

> Do you mean the tip of the rotor & the terminals in
> the cap around the outside?

I'm talking about the tip of the rotor not having
angular alignment with the terminal on the cap. 
Obviously, the alignment changes with different
amounts of advance.  Often, when advance is increased
over stock, the rotor tip has not yet come into
angular proximity with the terminal on the cap.  See
my previous post for the rest.  ;)

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From shurvinton at orange.net  Sun Dec  8 00:46:36 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 21:46:36 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
Message-ID: 

Contact me off list. I have stocks of GM stuff and nearly all the bits
(awaiting some HEI modules) to do full EFI. The GM stuff has been hacked by
some amazing guys. You could do the whole thing for ?100 all in if you know
where to get the other bits like injectors from.

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Glynne Jones
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:47 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)


I want to build a fuel/ignition system for a 4 cylinder petrol engine. For
this I require a programmable ECU. I could buy one from DTA or someone
similar but this would defeat the object which is to keep costs as low as
possible. How can I build one? what do I use?. where do I get the bits?
Glynne Jones.  E-mail  info at desertrats.co.uk


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From abnengineering at cs.com  Sun Dec  8 07:57:06 2002
From: abnengineering at cs.com (abnengineering at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 04:57:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction 
Message-ID: 

SnVzdCBiZWNhdXNlIEkgaGF2ZW4ndCBub3RpY2VkIGFueW9uZSBzYXkgaXQuLi4KClRoZSBv
bmx5IHByb2JsZW0gSSd2ZSBoYWQsIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgd2l0aCBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSBjYWxp
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Y3RlZCBwaXN0b24gYW5kIHRoZSBkaXNrLiBUaGUgYW50aSByYXR0bGUgY2xpcCAoc3ByaW5n
KSB3b3VsZCBzZWVtIHRvIGtlZXAgdGhlIHBhZCBhZ2FpbnN0IHRoZSByb3RvciAoYnkgY3Jl
YXRpbmcgZnJpY3Rpb24gYmV0d2VlbiB0aGUgcGFkIGFuZCBpdHMgZ3VpZGVzKS4uLnVudGls
IGl0IGlzIGtub2NrZWQgYmFjayBieSBkZWZsZWN0aW9ucyBpbiB0aGUgc3Bpbm5pbmcgcm90
b3I/IFBlcmZvcm1hbmNlIGNhbGlwZXJzIHN1Y2ggYXMgV2lsd29vZCByYWNpbmcgY2FsaXBl
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c3VyZS4KPj5XaGVuIHRoZSBwcmVzc3VyZSBpcyByZWxlYXNlZCwgaXQgdGVuZHMgdG8gcHVs
bCB0aGUgcGFkIGJhY2sgYXMgaXQKPj5iZWNvbWVzIHVuc3RyZXNzZWQuIFRoZSBPLXJpbmcg
YWxzbyBzZXJ2ZXMgdG8ga2VlcCB0aGUgcGlzdG9uIG5lYXIKPj50aGUgZGlzYyBhcyB0aGUg
YnJha2UgcGFkcyB3ZWFyLgo=

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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Sun Dec  8 09:02:08 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 06:02:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction
Message-ID: 

On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 05:51:49PM -0000, Richards, Sean wrote:
> need to modify a digifant efi to use a 16v engine
> anyone have any tricks

Easy one: Use the Digifant from the last 16V GTIs (2-litre) built in
Europe.

If you plan to use one from an 8V engine, then you have to find
somebody who can re-program the thing. It's not exactly
straight-forward; and depending on the vintage, it could be a
Motorola chip doing the fuel injection, and an Intel chip doing the
ignition. :-(

Air flow metering shoul be done by air-mass meter; the flap meter
from an 8V will top out well before the 16V runs out of steam.

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
 X   against HTML mail     | Copy me into your ~/.signature
/ \  and postings          | to help me spread!

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From klox at juno.com  Sun Dec  8 09:43:38 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 06:43:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU
Message-ID: 

Glynne --

A guy I know from the Honda CRX forum, crx.honda-perf.org, name of Dave
Blundell, is good friends with another guy who frequents that forum,
named Mike "Xtensive", and both are members of a site called PGMFI.org, a
site dedicated to Honda EFI.  Dave is one of the administrators.  For
some time, a company in California called Zdyne has been making
Honda-specific conversion ECU's and their flagship, the Zdyne Gold, is a
programmable ECU that is boost capable and very user-friendly.  The
trouble with Zdyne is mainly that it is too expensive, and for a while
now, Mike and Dave and some friends have been working on an open source
programmable ECU application called GhettoDyne.  GhD 1.02 is already
available and in use, and a boost-support version of GhD is being
beta-tested.  I myself am shopping for a good fuel and timing control for
my turbo project for my CRX, and I'm holding out for the bug-free boost
support version of GhettoDyne, simply because it is nearly free.  But if
Ghetto Dyne isn't Honda-specific, it's still extremely Honda-friendly and
undoubtedly not so friendly to non-Hondas.  The exact specifications, I
could not provide presently.  But because I'm holding out for it myself,
and because it's free, I plan on becoming as well-educated on it as I
can, as soon as I can, toward the goal of helping Dave and Mike and
friends with tech support, and of contributing to future upgrades.  If
you think you can work with a Honda-based system, the hardware you need
to reprogram an ECU is one of the OBD0 Honda ECUs from 90 or 91, the PM6
or PM7, or also the PR4.  With GhettoDyne 1.02, you can change the fuel
and timing maps on any of these ECU's, and when the boost version becomes
available, you can use the stock Honda MAP sensor, reliable up to 9psi
gauge, to help control fuel and timing on a turbo-or supercharged 4 cyl.
engine.

I guess how useful this info is to you depends on what engine you are
trying to convert to fuel injection, and what hardware is available on
it.  With that in mind, I'll wait to hear from you before I continue. 
Feel free to contact me privately.  I would have replied privately, but I
thought this news would seem interesting to some of the other fellas
here.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 21:04:04 -0000 "Glynne Jones" 
writes:
> I want to build a fuel/ignition system for a 4 cylinder petrol 
> engine. For this I require a programmable ECU. I could buy one from 
> DTA or someone similar but this would defeat the object which is to 
> keep costs as low as possible. How can I build one? what do I use?. 
> where do I get the bits?  Glynne Jones. UK
> 
>  E-mail  info at desertrats.co.uk
> 


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From klox at juno.com  Sun Dec  8 09:43:57 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 06:43:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van
Message-ID: 

Pat,

You may be right.  You sound as if you are more thoroughly and
specifically informed than I am.  But  when someone says veggie oil is
closed cycle, that is not strictly true.  If any petrol was burned in the
planting, tending, harvesting, processing of veggie oil, it isn't closed
cycle.  It's a distinction that has to be explored to find to what extent
the idea is truly closed cycle, or we fall into the same trap as people
who buy a fuel-cell car, thinking it is "zero emissions".  If the
hydrogen came from water that was split by commercial utilities'
electricity, it is not zero emissions.  When someone says there is no
nonrenewableness in the biodiesel production process, they are wrong, if
any petrol was burned during the planting, etc. etc. etc.  But at least
it sounds like you can make a good case for biodiesel being cleaner than
petrodiesel, if not perfectly clean.  Good for you.

On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 09:03:26 +1100 "Patrick Cahill"
 writes:
> >I don't think it's that simple.  McDonald's is going to do business 
> and
> >make french fries no matter what we do, so there will always be 
> lots of
> >used french fry oil, as long as no more than a few people use it to 
> run
> >their cars.  But the cycle of growing food, tending it, harvesting 
> it,
> >processing the oil out of it to burn in cars is not solar powered, 
> and on
> >the scale of use that people use petrodiesel, Biodiesel would not 
> be
> >solar generated, nor all the CO2 closed cycle.  That raises the 
> question
> >"how much effort does it take to produce a billion barrels of 
> petrodiesel
> >vs. biodiesel?"  These little hidden sources of non-renewableness 
> reduce
> >the feasibility of so-called "clean" energy sources.
> 
> >Whereas I know that if I use solar power to split water, that is 
> closed
> >cycle.
> 
> The amount of effort needed to produce a billion barrels of 
> biodiesel would
> be a bit more efficient to a billion barrels of petro diesel. I say 
> this
> using the batch/catalyst method of production for the biodiesel. As 
> I think
> I metnioned in an earlier post, there are newer and much more 
> efficient
> processes which are now coming out of the experimental phase.
> 
> As for hidden non-renewableness in either batch or flow type 
> biodiesel,
> there are none.
> 
> The closed carbon cycle referred to is in fact, fact. Someone 
> mentioned that
> petrodiesel is also a closed cycle, it just takes millions of years. 
> My
> point exactly. A lot of the atmospherical damage currently being 
> wrought on
> the panet is due to the fact that we are digging up carbon which has 
> sat
> underground for millenia and are now throwing it into the 
> atmosphere. We
> then expect our current level of vegetation to clean this mess up 
> for us
> (ala the Greenfleet idea in Asutralia) and then panic when it 
> doesn't.
> 
> The process of growing the food, harvesting the food and processing 
> the oil
> is still a better proposition than pumping out an oil well shipping 
> it to a
> refinery (ask the Spanish what a great idea this can be) refining 
> and
> cracking it through several processes (most taking a huge amount of 
> heat)
> and finally shipping it off to market.
> 
> I negelected to mention the problems of setting up an oil well to 
> start
> with.
> 
> Believe me, I am not the type of person you would normally find 
> advocating
> "Green" alternatives (Iam a race engineer by day) and I agree that 
> some of
> these alternatives can be a backward step. However, the long term
> implications of biodiesel and the short term simplicity of 
> implementation
> makes it a very attractive alternative to any other current fuel.
> 
> Patrick Cahill
> 


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From yardcooliediy at charter.net  Sun Dec  8 18:43:41 2002
From: yardcooliediy at charter.net (Mike Turner)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 15:43:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Distributor cap Q
Message-ID: 

> SBC timing can vary ~35 degrees. How wide is the rotor contact? How 
> wide is the cap contact? The two "contacts" almost never touch. The 
> spark jumps a gap from the rotor to the cap. I would suggest getting 
> one of the transparent distributor caps and watching the spark. Many 
> things will become apparent...



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From Patricks.mails at t-online.de  Sun Dec  8 20:44:44 2002
From: Patricks.mails at t-online.de (Patrick Schlecht)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 17:44:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Jeep connectors
Message-ID: 

Hello,
I want to build my own wiring harness for a 4.0 L Jeep engine but can't 
find the connectors anywhere. The sensors are made in 2000 and look 
different from earlier models. I searched the whole internet but didn't 
find any information about it. The plugs look similar to these made by 
Amp or Delphi but they aren't. I also can't take a factory wiring 
harness since I plan to use my own engine computer instead of the Jeep 
computer. Maybe someone could help me.
Thank you.

Bye Patrick


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From kojab at optushome.com.au  Sun Dec  8 21:45:36 2002
From: kojab at optushome.com.au (Richard Wakeling)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 18:45:36 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Rochester injector flow rate?
Message-ID: 

Anyone know what Rochester Injector type 17104487 flow?
Impedance is 12.3 ohms.

TIA

Cheers Richard


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From sthl at gmx.de  Sun Dec  8 23:23:02 2002
From: sthl at gmx.de (Stephan Helbig)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:23:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: biodiesel vs. rapeseed oil
Message-ID: 

Hi Patrick,

You are talking about biodiesel. Maybe there was a misunderstanding, but
Steve asked for real (viscose) cooking oil. How about this even less
energy consuming alternative? 
Biodiesl has two big disadvantages:
- it processes a lot of glycerine as a waste product and where does the
methanol come from?
- and it must be produced centralized i.e. also carried to and from a
factory though the distances are not that far as with petrodiesel.
Straight vegetable oil however can be produeced locally and does not
need to be distributed from and into factories. Here in Germany there
are a lot of farmers who grow rapeseed and press their own vegoil. You
can get your fuel from local farms all over Germany already (e.g. the
list at http://www.rerorust.de/poeltanke.htm).  Farmers again can run
their mashines on their own fuel then.
And as some critics mention over furtilization- the newest researches by
universities have shown that mixed fruit planting (rapeseed mixed with
other oil plants) increases the harvest to an equal level without
furtilizers. So I really hope for a change towards unchanged natural
fuel and slightly OEM-modified engines.

Stephan


> The amount of effort needed to produce a billion barrels of biodiesel would
> be a bit more efficient to a billion barrels of petro diesel. I say this
> using the batch/catalyst method of production for the biodiesel. As I think
> I metnioned in an earlier post, there are newer and much more efficient
> processes which are now coming out of the experimental phase.
> 
> As for hidden non-renewableness in either batch or flow type biodiesel,
> there are none.

-- 
My Homepage:
http://www.e-ger-translation.de
http://people.freenet.de/sthl/
--


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From karlandanne at sympatico.ca  Mon Dec  9 00:02:58 2002
From: karlandanne at sympatico.ca (The McConnell's)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 21:02:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Jeep connectors
Message-ID: 

maybe take a male connector for whatever computer it is you are using and
just splice some wires?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Schlecht" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 3:39 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Jeep connectors


> Hello,
> I want to build my own wiring harness for a 4.0 L Jeep engine but can't
> find the connectors anywhere. The sensors are made in 2000 and look
> different from earlier models. I searched the whole internet but didn't
> find any information about it. The plugs look similar to these made by
> Amp or Delphi but they aren't. I also can't take a factory wiring
> harness since I plan to use my own engine computer instead of the Jeep
> computer. Maybe someone could help me.
> Thank you.
>
> Bye Patrick
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From twsharpe at mtco.com  Mon Dec  9 03:49:10 2002
From: twsharpe at mtco.com (Tom Sharpe)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 00:49:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

They look like motocross shock reservoirs and are supposed to prevent lockup caused
by rough rotors/ etc/ Tom  one for each end.

Perry Harrington wrote:

> I wonder if he's referring to those delay valves used to delay the onset of
> rear brakes.  The stated purpose is to prevent rear brake lockup by preventing
> the high pressure surge when someone stomps the pedal in an emergency.
>


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From swebb at netlab.uky.edu  Mon Dec  9 05:23:07 2002
From: swebb at netlab.uky.edu (Stephen Webb)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 02:23:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction
Message-ID: 

> need to modify a digifant efi to use a 16v engine
> anyone have any tricks

I don't know the whole story, but my understanding is that you need to fit
the injectors into the 16v manifold, and transfer all of the sensors over
from the digifant setup.  

If the 16v is a 2.0 you may need to have a chip made for you.  I don't
have any experience with them, but there is a company called SNS tuning, I
believe, who may be able to help you out in this regard.

-Steve



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From maier_markus at t-online.de  Mon Dec  9 09:24:23 2002
From: maier_markus at t-online.de (maier_markus at t-online.de)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:24:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Motronic MS2.2
Message-ID: 

Hi,

take a look at www.etas.de

Ciao
Markus


Patrick Cahill schrieb:
> Does anyone know how to get into a Motronic MS2.2? Owing
> to the fact that
> Bosch Motorsport discontinued this model a few years ago
> I am having real
> trouble finding a CANCARD and cable for it.
> 
> I have all the software (VM3000 and WinDARAB) but can't
> get into it to do
> anything.
> 
> Patrick Cahill
>

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From sfwilliams at comcast.net  Mon Dec  9 13:45:19 2002
From: sfwilliams at comcast.net (Scott F. Williams)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 10:45:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction
Message-ID: 

> I don't
> have any experience with them, but there is a company called SNS tuning, I
> believe, who may be able to help you out in this regard.

SNS Tuning are Digifant I specialists whereas the system that we're talking
about here is Digifant II. So, that option actually is not viable. They
might know a source for those appropriate chips, though. -never hurts to
ask, I guess.
--
Scott F. Williams
NJ Scirocco nut
'99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."



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From KYoung at advan-tek.com  Mon Dec  9 13:53:30 2002
From: KYoung at advan-tek.com (Ken Young)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 10:53:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: VR4 diagnostic trouble codes
Message-ID: 

>I know it's a little off topic but I am looking for diagnostic codes
>for a Mitsubishi VR4 Galant about 1990-92. 

dsm.org website has several FAQs, and I think you'll find your answer here.
The GVR4 shares the same ECU as the 1G Talons & Eclipses.
http://www.myzero.com/electrical/code.html

Ken Young
'93 Eclipse GSX

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec  9 14:54:07 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:54:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with    
Message-ID: 

At 04:44 AM 12/7/02 +0100, you wrote:
>What makes you think there is such wear? The most infime disk warp (i.e. the
>one all disks have) will retract the pads just a bit and the remaining
>friction is negligible, if any. Try something: take any standard car (cold),
>drive it at speed for a while and then let it stop, all without ever
>touching the brakes, now check the disk temperature. I'm willing to bet they
>are completely cold.

Well firstly, there is evidence that they can drag from time to time, so what
I'm interested in is a means to *be sure* there is no contact - rather then
hoping there isnt - a subtle but important engineering paradigm ;)
Especially since the 'standard' caliper arrangement seems a bit basic and
I have been wondering if there wasnt something better...

As you've probably seen on this mail list, GM went to some trouble with a
modified cylinder to cover this issue and I am looking into it.

I also have heard there are those on competitive economy runs that go
to considerable trouble over several aspects of fuel consumption management,
and do attend to this issue and as someone has commented on the wheel
bearings as well.

Granted, I am not in a competitive economy test, I just feel it prudent
to consider this if I am to embark on some form of economy test over a
3000km distance - where I am looking to manage 'some' of the issues which
could affect the outcome,

Rgds

mike


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec  9 15:08:09 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:08:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction with     
Message-ID: 

At 09:16 AM 12/6/02 -0600, you wrote:
>For reduced wheel bearing drag in an economy run, one might try what the
>Nascar boys do for qualifying--10 wt or light synthetic oil in the wheel
>bearings, no grease.

mmmmm, Thanks Greg,

I've always wondered if some closed oil/air system wouldnt be better
then grease, I would have thought that the grease would eventually
be 'pressed out' and find its way into that space between the two
bearings (as I seem to find it there) with what seems minimal grease
leftover. It occured to me that a closed oil/air system and some
baffle might keep the oil directed through the bearings when the wheel
is in motion - ie. Using the centrifugal force with some simple
baffle to provide something akin to pumping action. Then you could
use lower drag lubricants - but someone mentioned the grease also
acts to spread the load which might go a long way to reducing the
chance of catrastophic damage of any one roller in the cage...

I did notice a big difference though when I changed from that
grey moly grease to the clay stuff and wouldnt mind using the
clear grease instead,

Is the clay added to spread wear more evenly or provide some
mechanical support for the grease at higher temperatures ?

Dont concern yourself Adam, I'm not about to go into a blind
alley cause it aint broke, just exploring some issues ;)

rdgs

mike



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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec  9 15:28:20 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:28:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] [ot] Analyser on ebay
Message-ID: 

Hi chaps,

Analyser on ebay, guess it would be too slow for EFI...

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1924616965

Rgds

mike


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From Sean.Richards at diageo.com  Mon Dec  9 19:06:22 2002
From: Sean.Richards at diageo.com (Richards, Sean)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 16:06:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction
Message-ID: 

how do i reprogram the chips.
can i do it myself or is it something left to a specialist of some sort.
if not where can i get the gismo to do it myself.





On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 05:51:49PM -0000, Richards, Sean wrote:
> need to modify a digifant efi to use a 16v engine
> anyone have any tricks

Easy one: Use the Digifant from the last 16V GTIs (2-litre) built in
Europe.

If you plan to use one from an 8V engine, then you have to find
somebody who can re-program the thing. It's not exactly
straight-forward; and depending on the vintage, it could be a
Motorola chip doing the fuel injection, and an Intel chip doing the
ignition. :-(

Air flow metering shoul be done by air-mass meter; the flap meter
from an 8V will top out well before the 16V runs out of steam.

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
 X   against HTML mail     | Copy me into your ~/.signature
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From klox at juno.com  Tue Dec 10 09:38:24 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:38:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction
Message-ID: 

Could you be talking about SDS Tuning?  They make a very factory-like
ECU, although it's expensive.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 00:26:14 -0500 (EST) Stephen Webb
 writes:
> > need to modify a digifant efi to use a 16v engine
> > anyone have any tricks
> 
> I don't know the whole story, but my understanding is that you need 
> to fit
> the injectors into the 16v manifold, and transfer all of the sensors 
> over
> from the digifant setup.  
> 
> If the 16v is a 2.0 you may need to have a chip made for you.  I 
> don't
> have any experience with them, but there is a company called SNS 
> tuning, I
> believe, who may be able to help you out in this regard.
> 
> -Steve
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From sfwilliams at comcast.net  Tue Dec 10 12:56:56 2002
From: sfwilliams at comcast.net (Scott F. Williams)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:56:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction
Message-ID: 

Eric asked:
> Could you be talking about SDS Tuning?  They make a very factory-like
> ECU, although it's expensive.

No, SDS makes a low budget standalone engine management system that you can
buy off the shelf. -a blasphemous proposition on this list! :^) SNS Tuning,
on the other hand , is an outfit that specializes in
custom remapping of the Digifant I system that was supplied on the VW
Corrado G60. They tweek these things to handle all sorts of outrageous
configurations like normal aspiration, 350hp turbo, to complete dataloging
with extra channels controlling nitrous oxide, etc. -a talented duo, those
fellows are.
--
Scott F. Williams
NJ Scirocco nut
'99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."



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From nwester at eidnet.org  Wed Dec 11 00:46:50 2002
From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:46:50 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU
Message-ID: 

Interesting stuff, Eric...where's the Honda site ? I can't seem to find it. 

Lyndon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Byrd" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU


> Glynne --
> 
> A guy I know from the Honda CRX forum, crx.honda-perf.org, name of Dave
> Blundell, is good friends with another guy who frequents that forum,
> named Mike "Xtensive", and both are members of a site called PGMFI.org, a
> site dedicated to Honda EFI.  Dave is one of the administrators.  For
> some time, a company in California called Zdyne has been making
> Honda-specific conversion ECU's and their flagship, the Zdyne Gold, is a
> programmable ECU that is boost capable and very user-friendly.  The
> trouble with Zdyne is mainly that it is too expensive, and for a while
> now, Mike and Dave and some friends have been working on an open source
> programmable ECU application called GhettoDyne.  GhD 1.02 is already
> available and in use, and a boost-support version of GhD is being
> beta-tested.  I myself am shopping for a good fuel and timing control for
> my turbo project for my CRX, and I'm holding out for the bug-free boost
> support version of GhettoDyne, simply because it is nearly free.  But if
> Ghetto Dyne isn't Honda-specific, it's still extremely Honda-friendly and
> undoubtedly not so friendly to non-Hondas.  The exact specifications, I
> could not provide presently.  But because I'm holding out for it myself,
> and because it's free, I plan on becoming as well-educated on it as I
> can, as soon as I can, toward the goal of helping Dave and Mike and
> friends with tech support, and of contributing to future upgrades.  If
> you think you can work with a Honda-based system, the hardware you need
> to reprogram an ECU is one of the OBD0 Honda ECUs from 90 or 91, the PM6
> or PM7, or also the PR4.  With GhettoDyne 1.02, you can change the fuel
> and timing maps on any of these ECU's, and when the boost version becomes
> available, you can use the stock Honda MAP sensor, reliable up to 9psi
> gauge, to help control fuel and timing on a turbo-or supercharged 4 cyl.
> engine.
> 
> I guess how useful this info is to you depends on what engine you are
> trying to convert to fuel injection, and what hardware is available on
> it.  With that in mind, I'll wait to hear from you before I continue. 
> Feel free to contact me privately.  I would have replied privately, but I
> thought this news would seem interesting to some of the other fellas
> here.
> 
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 21:04:04 -0000 "Glynne Jones" 
> writes:
> > I want to build a fuel/ignition system for a 4 cylinder petrol 
> > engine. For this I require a programmable ECU. I could buy one from 
> > DTA or someone similar but this would defeat the object which is to 
> > keep costs as low as possible. How can I build one? what do I use?. 
> > where do I get the bits?  Glynne Jones. UK
> > 
> >  E-mail  info at desertrats.co.uk
> > 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
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> Only $9.95 per month!
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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Wed Dec 11 02:05:13 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:05:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU
Message-ID: 


im running a 1227749 with $58 code on a older 86 accord.im gonna switch to a 
$8f code and run a 1227727 or the 1227749 if i can..if the 1227749 wont run 
$8f . im gonna use a 1227727 with an off board injector setup. the honda 
stuff is nice but to limited in terms of hardware and code flexibility for my 
application.however if youve got questions about these ecm on hondas or other 
non gm 4 cylinder apps toss me an email off list.

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From MorneV at ComparexAfrica.co.za  Wed Dec 11 05:18:51 2002
From: MorneV at ComparexAfrica.co.za (Morne Vorster - CA Mngd Services)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 02:18:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Please unsubscribe
Message-ID: 



-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:00 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #398 - 2 msgs


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"Re: Contents of Diy_efi digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: vw jetta 8v modifiaction (Eric Byrd)
   2. RE: vw jetta 8v modifiaction (Scott F. Williams)

--__--__--

Message: 1
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 01:35:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction
From: Eric Byrd 
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

Could you be talking about SDS Tuning?  They make a very factory-like ECU,
although it's expensive.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 00:26:14 -0500 (EST) Stephen Webb 
writes:
> > need to modify a digifant efi to use a 16v engine
> > anyone have any tricks
> 
> I don't know the whole story, but my understanding is that you need
> to fit
> the injectors into the 16v manifold, and transfer all of the sensors 
> over
> from the digifant setup.  
> 
> If the 16v is a 2.0 you may need to have a chip made for you.  I
> don't
> have any experience with them, but there is a company called SNS 
> tuning, I
> believe, who may be able to help you out in this regard.
> 
> -Steve
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:57:26 -0500
From: "Scott F. Williams" 
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

Eric asked:
> Could you be talking about SDS Tuning?  They make a very factory-like 
> ECU, although it's expensive.

No, SDS makes a low budget standalone engine management system that you can
buy off the shelf. -a blasphemous proposition on this list! :^) SNS Tuning,
on the other hand , is an outfit that specializes in
custom remapping of the Digifant I system that was supplied on the VW
Corrado G60. They tweek these things to handle all sorts of outrageous
configurations like normal aspiration, 350hp turbo, to complete dataloging
with extra channels controlling nitrous oxide, etc. -a talented duo, those
fellows are.
--
Scott F. Williams
NJ Scirocco nut
'99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."





--__--__--

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End of Diy_efi Digest

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From fatbillybob at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 11 05:25:42 2002
From: fatbillybob at yahoo.com (bob limo)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 02:25:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ?
Message-ID: 

Do you guys know if the wide open throttle on most
production sports cars is at the maximum duty cycle of
the injectors, or do most manufacturers have some head
room in the injectors like 20% more room?

TIA

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From jake at infctd.net  Wed Dec 11 05:40:06 2002
From: jake at infctd.net (john)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 02:40:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ?
Message-ID: 

wot != maximum duty cycle

'headroom' varies between manufacturers although i think 20% is a good
approximation.

also na cars typically have less spare capacity than turbocharged / blown

j


----- Original Message -----
From: "bob limo" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 4:33 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ?


> Do you guys know if the wide open throttle on most
> production sports cars is at the maximum duty cycle of
> the injectors, or do most manufacturers have some head
> room in the injectors like 20% more room?
>
> TIA
>
> __________________________________________________
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From klox at juno.com  Wed Dec 11 07:40:27 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 04:40:27 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ?
Message-ID: 

Definitely not, at least not in the case of Hondas.  They try to strike a
balance, between small enough to ensure a smooth idle, and large enough
that the sequential signals to the injectors aren't in danger of
overlapping.  My guess is, that would complicate the response of the
injector solenoids.  It makes sense to have only one injector spraying at
a time.  And I would also guess that Honda stock injectors can handle
about 50% more horsepower than the stock power peak.  The guys at Zdyne,
the place in California that makes programmable ECU's for Hondas, say you
can use the stock injectors with their equipment, if you boost the
regulator pressure a little and remap the fuel.  But they also say it's a
little dicey, doing that, and they recommend you get 450 cc injectors
instead of the stock 240's on the Honda D-series engines.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:33:01 -0800 (PST) bob limo 
writes:
> Do you guys know if the wide open throttle on most
> production sports cars is at the maximum duty cycle of
> the injectors, or do most manufacturers have some head
> room in the injectors like 20% more room?
> 
> TIA
> 
> __________________________________________________
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From Joel.Eck at hp.com  Wed Dec 11 15:21:04 2002
From: Joel.Eck at hp.com (Eck, Joel (Houston))
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:21:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU
Message-ID: 

http://pgmfi.crx-forum.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Programmer [mailto:nwester at eidnet.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 6:53 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU


Interesting stuff, Eric...where's the Honda site ? I can't seem to find =
it.=20

Lyndon

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Eric Byrd" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU


> Glynne --
>=20
> A guy I know from the Honda CRX forum, crx.honda-perf.org, name of =
Dave
> Blundell, is good friends with another guy who frequents that forum,
> named Mike "Xtensive", and both are members of a site called =
PGMFI.org, a
> site dedicated to Honda EFI.  Dave is one of the administrators.  For
> some time, a company in California called Zdyne has been making
> Honda-specific conversion ECU's and their flagship, the Zdyne Gold, is =
a
> programmable ECU that is boost capable and very user-friendly.  The
> trouble with Zdyne is mainly that it is too expensive, and for a while
> now, Mike and Dave and some friends have been working on an open =
source
> programmable ECU application called GhettoDyne.  GhD 1.02 is already
> available and in use, and a boost-support version of GhD is being
> beta-tested.  I myself am shopping for a good fuel and timing control =
for
> my turbo project for my CRX, and I'm holding out for the bug-free =
boost
> support version of GhettoDyne, simply because it is nearly free.  But =
if
> Ghetto Dyne isn't Honda-specific, it's still extremely Honda-friendly =
and
> undoubtedly not so friendly to non-Hondas.  The exact specifications, =
I
> could not provide presently.  But because I'm holding out for it =
myself,
> and because it's free, I plan on becoming as well-educated on it as I
> can, as soon as I can, toward the goal of helping Dave and Mike and
> friends with tech support, and of contributing to future upgrades.  If
> you think you can work with a Honda-based system, the hardware you =
need
> to reprogram an ECU is one of the OBD0 Honda ECUs from 90 or 91, the =
PM6
> or PM7, or also the PR4.  With GhettoDyne 1.02, you can change the =
fuel
> and timing maps on any of these ECU's, and when the boost version =
becomes
> available, you can use the stock Honda MAP sensor, reliable up to 9psi
> gauge, to help control fuel and timing on a turbo-or supercharged 4 =
cyl.
> engine.
>=20
> I guess how useful this info is to you depends on what engine you are
> trying to convert to fuel injection, and what hardware is available on
> it.  With that in mind, I'll wait to hear from you before I continue.=20
> Feel free to contact me privately.  I would have replied privately, =
but I
> thought this news would seem interesting to some of the other fellas
> here.
>=20
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 21:04:04 -0000 "Glynne Jones" =

> writes:
> > I want to build a fuel/ignition system for a 4 cylinder petrol=20
> > engine. For this I require a programmable ECU. I could buy one from=20
> > DTA or someone similar but this would defeat the object which is to=20
> > keep costs as low as possible. How can I build one? what do I use?.=20
> > where do I get the bits?  Glynne Jones. UK
> >=20
> >  E-mail  info at desertrats.co.uk
> >=20
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
> Visit www.juno.com
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>=20



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From cell at x-dsl.hu  Wed Dec 11 15:33:11 2002
From: cell at x-dsl.hu (Marcell Gal)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:33:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.
Message-ID: 

Hi,

Eric wrote:
> their cars.  But the cycle of growing food, tending it, harvesting it,
> processing the oil out of it to burn in cars is not solar powered, and on
> the scale of use that people use petrodiesel, Biodiesel would not be
...
> Whereas I know that if I use solar power to split water, that is closed
> cycle.

You are right that all the costs, pollution and efforts of utilization
should be considered when looking at an energy source.
However what makes you think that technology to use solar power to split
water costs nothing? To my knowledge, all technologies we have for utilizing 
sunpower are costly in fact. (semiconductors or mirrors and turbines).
Small solar cells make less energy in their whole lifetime than you could buy
from a nuclear power plant for the cost of the cell. 

    Marcell

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 11 15:56:50 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:56:50 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.
Message-ID: 

At 04:30 PM 11/12/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>Small solar cells make less energy in their whole lifetime than you could buy
>from a nuclear power plant for the cost of the cell. 

 Thats a real bad example, the risk index for both energy
sources is (to say the least) widely and wildly different !
And thats a major factor in comparitive studies regarding
energy sources, statisticians and critical path planners
(who are not readily influenced by the nuclear lobby) are on the
whole likely to dismiss nuclear power sources,

Solarex, who make solar panels, run their whole facility off
their product, so where does that figure in your paradigm ?

btw: Solar panels are still expensive mostly because there
is little compelling need for competition, no where near
critical mass in market terms, the trick is to:-

a.	Raise efficiency by handling more of the spectra
and
b.	Integrate solar into roof building materials
	structurally and electrically to raise drastically
	economies of scale...

Then you could use the 'spare' power to make methanol and
run our cars on it, forget the woeful problems with
batteries - a tank of relatively clean burning fuel
like methanol and your classic ICE still seems to have
a really long life - unless fuel cells can also be brought
down in price by a considerable degree, but politics and
special interest groups are the real problem - just get
em to stay in the sun a bit longer en masse without their
suits and see how they deal with it ;)

rgds

mike


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From nwester at eidnet.org  Wed Dec 11 15:57:24 2002
From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:57:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU
Message-ID: 

Thanks !

Lyndon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eck, Joel (Houston)" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU


http://pgmfi.crx-forum.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Programmer [mailto:nwester at eidnet.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 6:53 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU


Interesting stuff, Eric...where's the Honda site ? I can't seem to find it.

Lyndon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Byrd" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] [diy-efi] ECU


> Glynne --
>
> A guy I know from the Honda CRX forum, crx.honda-perf.org, name of Dave
> Blundell, is good friends with another guy who frequents that forum,
> named Mike "Xtensive", and both are members of a site called PGMFI.org, a
> site dedicated to Honda EFI.  Dave is one of the administrators.  For
> some time, a company in California called Zdyne has been making
> Honda-specific conversion ECU's and their flagship, the Zdyne Gold, is a
> programmable ECU that is boost capable and very user-friendly.  The
> trouble with Zdyne is mainly that it is too expensive, and for a while
> now, Mike and Dave and some friends have been working on an open source
> programmable ECU application called GhettoDyne.  GhD 1.02 is already
> available and in use, and a boost-support version of GhD is being
> beta-tested.  I myself am shopping for a good fuel and timing control for
> my turbo project for my CRX, and I'm holding out for the bug-free boost
> support version of GhettoDyne, simply because it is nearly free.  But if
> Ghetto Dyne isn't Honda-specific, it's still extremely Honda-friendly and
> undoubtedly not so friendly to non-Hondas.  The exact specifications, I
> could not provide presently.  But because I'm holding out for it myself,
> and because it's free, I plan on becoming as well-educated on it as I
> can, as soon as I can, toward the goal of helping Dave and Mike and
> friends with tech support, and of contributing to future upgrades.  If
> you think you can work with a Honda-based system, the hardware you need
> to reprogram an ECU is one of the OBD0 Honda ECUs from 90 or 91, the PM6
> or PM7, or also the PR4.  With GhettoDyne 1.02, you can change the fuel
> and timing maps on any of these ECU's, and when the boost version becomes
> available, you can use the stock Honda MAP sensor, reliable up to 9psi
> gauge, to help control fuel and timing on a turbo-or supercharged 4 cyl.
> engine.
>
> I guess how useful this info is to you depends on what engine you are
> trying to convert to fuel injection, and what hardware is available on
> it.  With that in mind, I'll wait to hear from you before I continue.
> Feel free to contact me privately.  I would have replied privately, but I
> thought this news would seem interesting to some of the other fellas
> here.
>
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 21:04:04 -0000 "Glynne Jones" 
> writes:
> > I want to build a fuel/ignition system for a 4 cylinder petrol
> > engine. For this I require a programmable ECU. I could buy one from
> > DTA or someone similar but this would defeat the object which is to
> > keep costs as low as possible. How can I build one? what do I use?.
> > where do I get the bits?  Glynne Jones. UK
> >
> >  E-mail  info at desertrats.co.uk
> >
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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From christopher.k.kete at Cummins.com  Wed Dec 11 16:05:51 2002
From: christopher.k.kete at Cummins.com (christopher.k.kete at Cummins.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:05:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Christopher K Kete/Corp/Cummins is out of the office.
Message-ID: 

I will be out of the office starting  12/10/2002 and will not return until
12/12/2002.

Out of the office on last-minute business.  Page me at 1-800-479-0937 and
leave a text message if you have an emergency.

Chris
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recipient, your use, forwarding, printing, storing, disseminating,
distribution, or copying of this communication is prohibited.  If you
received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately
by replying to this message and delete it from your computer.



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From eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com  Wed Dec 11 16:25:45 2002
From: eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com (Eric.Fahlgren)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:25:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.
Message-ID: 

Mike wrote:

> Solarex, who make solar panels, run their whole facility off
> their product, so where does that figure in your paradigm ?

Wait a minute, that's impossible, they need to bring in raw
materials, they just can't create silicon from sunlight and
electricity.

If you figure in the environmental impact of the various
chemicals used in a typical semiconductor plant, you'll
probably see things a bit differently.

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From Tlsalt at aol.com  Wed Dec 11 16:30:51 2002
From: Tlsalt at aol.com (Tlsalt at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:30:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ?
Message-ID: 

 Eric Byrd wrote,

 large enough that the sequential signals to the injectors aren't in danger of
overlapping.  My guess is, that would complicate the response of the
injector solenoids.  It makes sense to have only one injector spraying at
a time. 

Hello Eric,

Unless you are talking about stationary engines at the state fair, what you 
are suggesting is impossible.  There is simply not enough time to fire the 
injectors without overlap.  Sequential is almost meaningless above 50% duty 
cycle, the intake valves are only open around 35% of the cycle and the 
injectors are spraying up to 85% of the time.  All four cylinders fire in 2 
revolutions, you would need fire hose nozzles to accomplish what you suggest 
at 6000 rpm.

Paul

Paul

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 11 16:34:24 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:34:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Christopher K Kete/Corp/Cummins is out of the
Message-ID: 

At 11:10 AM 11/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Out of the office on last-minute business.  Page me at 1-800-479-0937 and
>leave a text message if you have an emergency.

Does this mean his pager is on GPRS or has a channel to flex

;-*)

rgds

mike


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 11 16:43:58 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:43:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.
Message-ID: 

At 11:25 AM 11/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Mike wrote:
>
>> Solarex, who make solar panels, run their whole facility off
>> their product, so where does that figure in your paradigm ?
>
>Wait a minute, that's impossible, they need to bring in raw
>materials, they just can't create silicon from sunlight and
>electricity.

Well  sand is pretty cheap, easy to clean and easy to
convert to silicon, all you need is a bit of power !

>If you figure in the environmental impact of the various
>chemicals used in a typical semiconductor plant, you'll
>probably see things a bit differently.

Making solar cells is not typical of what goes on to
make IC's, the base part of the process is the same but
there is no need for a huge number of steps which chew
up chemicals in your classic IC fabrication, to make
solar cells for power generation is the simplest and
least complex of all semiconductor fabrication, especially
the poly-silicon ones...

rgds

Mike
PS: SiO2 = sand = raw material for silicon, plus the few
trace elements (dopants) like Phosporous and something else.


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From fj40brett at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 11 20:22:14 2002
From: fj40brett at yahoo.com (Brett Garland)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:22:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] '7747 trouble code list
Message-ID: 

I have searched for the list of 7747 ecm trouble
codes.  I am reprogramming the memcal and since the
engine(stock 350 TBI) had an auto but now will have a
manual tranny...  I found one of the ARHT bins for a
manual, so I was hoping that would work, but some
other stuff has been removed, so it might set trouble
codes:

Eliminated the Fuel pump/Oil Pressure switch 
Eliminated the Digital Ratio Adapter (VSS directly to
ECM now) 
Eliminated the Park/Neutral switch, B10 
Eliminated the High Gear Input, C7 
Eliminated teh Downshift Relay 
Eliminated the Hot Fuel Module 
Eliminated the Auto Trns connection wires 

Does anyone know if the elimination of the oil
pressure switch will affect the ecm? 

-Brett

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From sravet at arm.com  Wed Dec 11 20:52:40 2002
From: sravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:52:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] '7747 trouble code list
Message-ID: 

Brett Garland wrote:
> Does anyone know if the elimination of the oil
> pressure switch will affect the ecm?

It won't.

--steve

-- 
Steve Ravet
steve.ravet at arm.com
ARM,Inc.
www.arm.com

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From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Wed Dec 11 23:03:27 2002
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 20:03:27 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: veggie van
Message-ID: 

Steve,
    In Australia, a company is selling commercially (in a limited number 
of rural areas) Bio-diesel which is made from 100% Canola and other 
vegetable Oils. I have used it in my Turbo Diesel and experienced a 
slight reduction in economy (approx 10% reduction in range), and price 
is (or was when I tried it) about 10% less than mineral diesel. No other 
observed effects. Drivability, acceleration, etc appeared unchanged.In 
cold weather it apparently solidifies at a higher temperature than 
mineral Diesel, but in winter mineral diesel is a different composition 
anyway to lower the temperature at which it solidifies.

Here are some of web sites that relate specifically to this:










Regards
Bill W

>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:05:18 -0600
From: steve ravet 
>To: diy_efi 
>Subject: [Diy_efi] veggie van
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>Has anyone else heard of this?  Apparently it's making the rounds on
>Discovery, CNN, etc.  There are people out there running their diesel
>vehicles on sunflower oil, used french fry oil from McDonalds, etc. 
>Does this really work reliably in the long run?
>
>http://www.veggievan.com is one of the many sites that talk about this.
>
>--steve
>
>  
>



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From dzorde at erggroup.com  Thu Dec 12 00:10:17 2002
From: dzorde at erggroup.com (Dan Zorde)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:10:17 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van
Message-ID: 


Yes, but unless the factory is right on top of the sand pit, someone
still has to excavate the sand and deliver it.  Even if this was done by
people with buckets they would need to eat to refuel, the food they
consume would somehow have used power to be grown and harvested (water
irrigation, etc).  And the unknown is always environmental impact, who
knows what impact a great big sandpit will have.

You can keep going forever, hence the ease of making any form of energy
seem better than others.

Dan  dzorde at erggroup.com

>Well  sand is pretty cheap, easy to clean and easy to
>convert to silicon, all you need is a bit of power !


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Thu Dec 12 04:14:24 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 01:14:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van
Message-ID: 

Sure - but comparatively speaking most of the energy (by far)
is provided by their own product,

Thats a rather significant paradigm, not reached by other
energy sources and over a short time period...

rgds

mike


At 08:13 AM 12/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>
>Yes, but unless the factory is right on top of the sand pit, someone
>still has to excavate the sand and deliver it.  Even if this was done by
>people with buckets they would need to eat to refuel, the food they
>consume would somehow have used power to be grown and harvested (water
>irrigation, etc).  And the unknown is always environmental impact, who
>knows what impact a great big sandpit will have.
>
>You can keep going forever, hence the ease of making any form of energy
>seem better than others.
>
>Dan  dzorde at erggroup.com
>
>>Well  sand is pretty cheap, easy to clean and easy to
>>convert to silicon, all you need is a bit of power !
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From kaizen__ at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 12 07:33:42 2002
From: kaizen__ at hotmail.com (Bevan Weiss)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 04:33:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van
Message-ID: 

I think that the more important aspect of solar energy etc is that the
energy required to harvest any power from it is a once off charge.  Gasoline
(and other fuels) which require a cost in energy to get some back out of the
system.  ie you have to drill for the oil etc, then transport it etc to the
place of combustion, with solar/wind you just setup the panels/turbines
where you require the power and that's the largest energy cost of the
system, the rest is maintanance.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van


> Sure - but comparatively speaking most of the energy (by far)
> is provided by their own product,
>
> Thats a rather significant paradigm, not reached by other
> energy sources and over a short time period...
>
> rgds
>
> mike
>
>
> At 08:13 AM 12/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
> >
> >Yes, but unless the factory is right on top of the sand pit, someone
> >still has to excavate the sand and deliver it.  Even if this was done by
> >people with buckets they would need to eat to refuel, the food they
> >consume would somehow have used power to be grown and harvested (water
> >irrigation, etc).  And the unknown is always environmental impact, who
> >knows what impact a great big sandpit will have.
> >
> >You can keep going forever, hence the ease of making any form of energy
> >seem better than others.
> >
> >Dan  dzorde at erggroup.com
> >
> >>Well  sand is pretty cheap, easy to clean and easy to
> >>convert to silicon, all you need is a bit of power !
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Thu Dec 12 07:47:41 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 04:47:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van
Message-ID: 

Yeah Bevan, - thats what I like about solar too :-)

There's another potential energy source using supercritical water:-

ie. Place water in a pressure vessel to around 3250psi, heat to
400deg C (its still liquid water) and now its in an equilibrium
between being an ionic solvent and a non-ionic solvent at the
same time or in a superposition state of the two - with some
quite nice properties :)

Add organic waste - such as from pharmacuticals, kitchen waste,
garden waste or whatever - such as through a crusher so its a
paste and manageable through the system,

Add air and combustion takes place, which raises the pressure
and the temperature - all whils the water is in liquid form,
not sure if light is also emitted but wouldnt it be spooky
to watch the combustion glow in liquid water through a quartz
window !

The heat generated is used to drive a turbine, and maintain the
systems base point operation provided you have enough organic
waste - which shouldnt be a problem for an 'idle' mode, batteries
of course can be used to kickstart it as for a car ( but i am
guessing this combustion process would be too slow to have one
of these things in our boot)

The combustion is for the most part complete and the only
waste products (by far) are N2 and CO2 which could be drawn off
through your classic membrane separator to supply industry.

The other potential is to use it in a partial combustion format
with safe fuels (non pharmacuticals) to generate CO, that and
H2 passed over a copper catalyst will generate methanol, the
heat source and pressure is already there so to speak, so
we could in theory use this system to get rid of kitchen and
garden waste, generate heat for home heating and cooking and
the outcome is methanol to run our cars...

Hope the petrochemical groups allow this email to get through ;-)

Rgds

mike



At 08:38 PM 12/12/2002 +1300, you wrote:
>I think that the more important aspect of solar energy etc is that the
>energy required to harvest any power from it is a once off charge.  Gasoline
>(and other fuels) which require a cost in energy to get some back out of the
>system.  ie you have to drill for the oil etc, then transport it etc to the
>place of combustion, with solar/wind you just setup the panels/turbines
>where you require the power and that's the largest energy cost of the
>system, the rest is maintanance.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van
>
>
>> Sure - but comparatively speaking most of the energy (by far)
>> is provided by their own product,
>>
>> Thats a rather significant paradigm, not reached by other
>> energy sources and over a short time period...
>>
>> rgds
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>> At 08:13 AM 12/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>> >
>> >Yes, but unless the factory is right on top of the sand pit, someone
>> >still has to excavate the sand and deliver it.  Even if this was done by
>> >people with buckets they would need to eat to refuel, the food they
>> >consume would somehow have used power to be grown and harvested (water
>> >irrigation, etc).  And the unknown is always environmental impact, who
>> >knows what impact a great big sandpit will have.
>> >
>> >You can keep going forever, hence the ease of making any form of energy
>> >seem better than others.
>> >
>> >Dan  dzorde at erggroup.com
>> >
>> >>Well  sand is pretty cheap, easy to clean and easy to
>> >>convert to silicon, all you need is a bit of power !
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>
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From info at titaniumcavallino.com  Thu Dec 12 08:01:29 2002
From: info at titaniumcavallino.com (Piotr Guzik [Titanium Cavallino])
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 05:01:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel DFI
Message-ID: 

Any users out there who managed to adapt the DFI 7 to a distributorless, 
EDIS type of application on a V8 engine.  It would have to use a wasted 
spark.
Also, would anyone have the ECU pin out diagram for reference.
Many thanks.
Peter


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From rogue555 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 12 09:48:22 2002
From: rogue555 at yahoo.com (Matt Rogge)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:48:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] [Newbie] Briggs EFI fuel pump
Message-ID: 

--0-676899925-1039686654=:74039
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I'm starting work on a class project to use efi on a 3.5 HP Briggs single cylinder engine in the hopes of large fuel efficiency. We're looking for an appropriate output/pressure pump, hopefully a nice small one. Anyone know of a supplier for such a part? 

Any help is greatly appreciated,

Matthew Rogge

http://smv.berkeley.edu


Matt Rogge
rogue555 at yahoo.com


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Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


I'm starting work on a class project to use efi on a 3.5 HP Briggs single cylinder engine in the hopes of large fuel efficiency. We're looking for an appropriate output/pressure pump, hopefully a nice small one. Anyone know of a supplier for such a part? 


Any help is greatly appreciated,


Matthew Rogge


http://smv.berkeley.edu


Matt Rogge
rogue555 at yahoo.com

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From klox at juno.com  Thu Dec 12 09:56:11 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:56:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ?
Message-ID: 

I found out some more info.  An engine needs 5.7 cc/min of fuel per hp. 
The stock 240 cc/min injectors on the Honda D-series engines therefore
can support up to 168 hp, at the maximum duty cycle.  However, the SDS
site recommends only an 85% use of the maximum duty cycle, so that
becomes about 145 hp.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 02:40:20 -0500 Eric Byrd  writes:
> Definitely not, at least not in the case of Hondas.  They try to 
> strike a
> balance, between small enough to ensure a smooth idle, and large 
> enough
> that the sequential signals to the injectors aren't in danger of
> overlapping.  My guess is, that would complicate the response of the
> injector solenoids.  It makes sense to have only one injector 
> spraying at
> a time.  And I would also guess that Honda stock injectors can 
> handle
> about 50% more horsepower than the stock power peak.  The guys at 
> Zdyne,
> the place in California that makes programmable ECU's for Hondas, 
> say you
> can use the stock injectors with their equipment, if you boost the
> regulator pressure a little and remap the fuel.  But they also say 
> it's a
> little dicey, doing that, and they recommend you get 450 cc 
> injectors
> instead of the stock 240's on the Honda D-series engines.
> 
> On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:33:01 -0800 (PST) bob limo 
> 
> writes:
> > Do you guys know if the wide open throttle on most
> > production sports cars is at the maximum duty cycle of
> > the injectors, or do most manufacturers have some head
> > room in the injectors like 20% more room?
> > 
> > TIA
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > 
> 
> 
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From klox at juno.com  Thu Dec 12 09:56:35 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:56:35 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van
Message-ID: 

Mike, you are an extraordinarily well-read guy...

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:02:17 Mike  writes:
> Yeah Bevan, - thats what I like about solar too :-)
> 
> There's another potential energy source using supercritical water:-
> 
> ie. Place water in a pressure vessel to around 3250psi, heat to
> 400deg C (its still liquid water) and now its in an equilibrium
> between being an ionic solvent and a non-ionic solvent at the
> same time or in a superposition state of the two - with some
> quite nice properties :)
> 
> Add organic waste - such as from pharmacuticals, kitchen waste,
> garden waste or whatever - such as through a crusher so its a
> paste and manageable through the system,
> 
> Add air and combustion takes place, which raises the pressure
> and the temperature - all whils the water is in liquid form,
> not sure if light is also emitted but wouldnt it be spooky
> to watch the combustion glow in liquid water through a quartz
> window !
> 
> The heat generated is used to drive a turbine, and maintain the
> systems base point operation provided you have enough organic
> waste - which shouldnt be a problem for an 'idle' mode, batteries
> of course can be used to kickstart it as for a car ( but i am
> guessing this combustion process would be too slow to have one
> of these things in our boot)
> 
> The combustion is for the most part complete and the only
> waste products (by far) are N2 and CO2 which could be drawn off
> through your classic membrane separator to supply industry.
> 
> The other potential is to use it in a partial combustion format
> with safe fuels (non pharmacuticals) to generate CO, that and
> H2 passed over a copper catalyst will generate methanol, the
> heat source and pressure is already there so to speak, so
> we could in theory use this system to get rid of kitchen and
> garden waste, generate heat for home heating and cooking and
> the outcome is methanol to run our cars...
> 
> Hope the petrochemical groups allow this email to get through ;-)
> 
> Rgds
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> 
> At 08:38 PM 12/12/2002 +1300, you wrote:
> >I think that the more important aspect of solar energy etc is that 
> the
> >energy required to harvest any power from it is a once off charge.  
> Gasoline
> >(and other fuels) which require a cost in energy to get some back 
> out of the
> >system.  ie you have to drill for the oil etc, then transport it 
> etc to the
> >place of combustion, with solar/wind you just setup the 
> panels/turbines
> >where you require the power and that's the largest energy cost of 
> the
> >system, the rest is maintanance.
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Mike" 
> >To: 
> >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:24 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van
> >
> >
> >> Sure - but comparatively speaking most of the energy (by far)
> >> is provided by their own product,
> >>
> >> Thats a rather significant paradigm, not reached by other
> >> energy sources and over a short time period...
> >>
> >> rgds
> >>
> >> mike
> >>
> >>
> >> At 08:13 AM 12/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Yes, but unless the factory is right on top of the sand pit, 
> someone
> >> >still has to excavate the sand and deliver it.  Even if this was 
> done by
> >> >people with buckets they would need to eat to refuel, the food 
> they
> >> >consume would somehow have used power to be grown and harvested 
> (water
> >> >irrigation, etc).  And the unknown is always environmental 
> impact, who
> >> >knows what impact a great big sandpit will have.
> >> >
> >> >You can keep going forever, hence the ease of making any form of 
> energy
> >> >seem better than others.
> >> >
> >> >Dan  dzorde at erggroup.com
> >> >
> >> >>Well  sand is pretty cheap, easy to clean and easy to
> >> >>convert to silicon, all you need is a bit of power !
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From klox at juno.com  Thu Dec 12 09:58:50 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:58:50 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.
Message-ID: 

Marcell,

I thought we were discussing the cost in emissions, not in capital
expense.  Eventually the intangible cost of emissions will rise high
enough, and the capital expense drop low enough, to make it worth the
effort.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:30:28 +0100 Marcell Gal  writes:
> Hi,
> 
> Eric wrote:
> > their cars.  But the cycle of growing food, tending it, harvesting 
> it,
> > processing the oil out of it to burn in cars is not solar powered, 
> and on
> > the scale of use that people use petrodiesel, Biodiesel would not 
> be
> ...
> > Whereas I know that if I use solar power to split water, that is 
> closed
> > cycle.
> 
> You are right that all the costs, pollution and efforts of 
> utilization
> should be considered when looking at an energy source.
> However what makes you think that technology to use solar power to 
> split
> water costs nothing? To my knowledge, all technologies we have for 
> utilizing 
> sunpower are costly in fact. (semiconductors or mirrors and 
> turbines).
> Small solar cells make less energy in their whole lifetime than you 
> could buy
> from a nuclear power plant for the cost of the cell. 
> 
>     Marcell
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From klox at juno.com  Thu Dec 12 09:58:56 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:58:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van
Message-ID: 

How about this for a perspective:

I think Messiah will come again, and change how everything is done,
before any drastic shifts in paradigm occur... and in the meantime, I
will just try to get the best mileage I can.  After all, my own ability
to influence the course of our energy pursuits is pretty limited.
	BTW, this remark was meant to provoke some grins, not to offend.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:38:52 +1300 "Bevan Weiss" 
writes:
> I think that the more important aspect of solar energy etc is that 
> the
> energy required to harvest any power from it is a once off charge.  
> Gasoline
> (and other fuels) which require a cost in energy to get some back 
> out of the
> system.  ie you have to drill for the oil etc, then transport it etc 
> to the
> place of combustion, with solar/wind you just setup the 
> panels/turbines
> where you require the power and that's the largest energy cost of 
> the
> system, the rest is maintanance.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van
> 
> 
> > Sure - but comparatively speaking most of the energy (by far)
> > is provided by their own product,
> >
> > Thats a rather significant paradigm, not reached by other
> > energy sources and over a short time period...
> >
> > rgds
> >
> > mike
> >
> >
> > At 08:13 AM 12/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Yes, but unless the factory is right on top of the sand pit, 
> someone
> > >still has to excavate the sand and deliver it.  Even if this was 
> done by
> > >people with buckets they would need to eat to refuel, the food 
> they
> > >consume would somehow have used power to be grown and harvested 
> (water
> > >irrigation, etc).  And the unknown is always environmental 
> impact, who
> > >knows what impact a great big sandpit will have.
> > >
> > >You can keep going forever, hence the ease of making any form of 
> energy
> > >seem better than others.
> > >
> > >Dan  dzorde at erggroup.com
> > >
> > >>Well  sand is pretty cheap, easy to clean and easy to
> > >>convert to silicon, all you need is a bit of power !
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Diy_efi mailing list
> > >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From klox at juno.com  Thu Dec 12 10:00:06 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:00:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ?
Message-ID: 

I stand corrected.  I thought it was pretty clear I was speculating. 
That is not a crime.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:36:56 EST Tlsalt at aol.com writes:
>  Eric Byrd wrote,
> 
>  large enough that the sequential signals to the injectors aren't in 
> danger of
> overlapping.  My guess is, that would complicate the response of the
> injector solenoids.  It makes sense to have only one injector 
> spraying at
> a time. 
> 
> Hello Eric,
> 
> Unless you are talking about stationary engines at the state fair, 
> what you 
> are suggesting is impossible.  There is simply not enough time to 
> fire the 
> injectors without overlap.  Sequential is almost meaningless above 
> 50% duty 
> cycle, the intake valves are only open around 35% of the cycle and 
> the 
> injectors are spraying up to 85% of the time.  All four cylinders 
> fire in 2 
> revolutions, you would need fire hose nozzles to accomplish what you 
> suggest 
> at 6000 rpm.
> 
> Paul
> 
> Paul
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From patc at opposition.tv  Thu Dec 12 10:22:52 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:22:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #401 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 



Message: 9
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 01:50:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Rogge 
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] [Newbie] Briggs EFI fuel pump
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

--0-676899925-1039686654=:74039
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I'm starting work on a class project to use efi on a 3.5 HP Briggs single
cylinder engine in the hopes of large fuel efficiency. We're looking for an
appropriate output/pressure pump, hopefully a nice small one. Anyone know of
a supplier for such a part?

Any help is greatly appreciated,

Matthew Rogge

http://smv.berkeley.edu


Matt Rogge
rogue555 at yahoo.com


I'm assuming you will need about 40-60psi of pressure. In which case, Delco
make a couple of small in tank rollercell type high pressure pumps that are
quite common and cheap. Try Delco EP254. It'll flow heaps more than you need
but if you set it up with a return type pressure reg. it should work fine.


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From mike.kelble at prodigy.net  Thu Dec 12 13:46:16 2002
From: mike.kelble at prodigy.net (MICHAEL KELBLE)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:46:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel DFI
Message-ID: 

--0-2031184380-1039700612=:10753
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


I set up a couple of these last year - I believe the pinout is either on the website instruction download or on the CD - can't remember which - I may have it somewhere in my pile of stuff.
As for distributorless - I did a gen 6 on an LT1, but that is the closest
 
Have  you called the Accel DFI tech line? they have always been very helpful to me
 "Piotr Guzik [Titanium Cavallino]"  wrote:Any users out there who managed to adapt the DFI 7 to a distributorless, 
EDIS type of application on a V8 engine. It would have to use a wasted 
spark.
Also, would anyone have the ECU pin out diagram for reference.
Many thanks.
Peter


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--0-2031184380-1039700612=:10753
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


I set up a couple of these last year - I believe the pinout is either on the website instruction download or on the CD - can't remember which - I may have it somewhere in my pile of stuff.

As for distributorless - I did a gen 6 on an LT1, but that is the closest

 

Have  you called the Accel DFI tech line? they have always been very helpful to me

 "Piotr Guzik [Titanium Cavallino]" <info at titaniumcavallino.com> wrote:

Any users out there who managed to adapt the DFI 7 to a distributorless, 
EDIS type of application on a V8 engine. It would have to use a wasted 
spark.
Also, would anyone have the ECU pin out diagram for reference.
Many thanks.
Peter


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--0-2031184380-1039700612=:10753--

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From sravet at arm.com  Thu Dec 12 16:22:05 2002
From: sravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:22:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] [Newbie] Briggs EFI fuel pump
Message-ID: 

You didn't say what pressure or output you needed, here's a starting
point:

http://diy-efi.org/gmecm/component_info/fuel_pumps.html

--steve

Matt Rogge wrote:
> 
> I'm starting work on a class project to use efi on a 3.5 HP Briggs
> single cylinder engine in the hopes of large fuel efficiency. We're
> looking for an appropriate output/pressure pump, hopefully a nice
> small one. Anyone know of a supplier for such a part?
> 
> Any help is greatly appreciated,
> 
> Matthew Rogge
> 
> http://smv.berkeley.edu
> 
> Matt Rogge
> rogue555 at yahoo.com
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

-- 
Steve Ravet
steve.ravet at arm.com
ARM,Inc.
www.arm.com

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From scirocco at uze.net  Thu Dec 12 17:17:43 2002
From: scirocco at uze.net (=?iso-8859-2?q?Uti=20K=E1roly?=)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:17:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] ECU maps needed!
Message-ID: 

Hi!=20
This is my first time here.
I am looking for ignition and fuel maps of different ECUs, especially
VAG Digifant (application 2.0 8v VW Corrado, Golf, Passat etc.), and
Motronic (1.5, e.g. Opel Calibra, Vectra C20NE). I'd also welcome some
help in decoding Motronic maps...  Can't be so difficult... :)

Thanks
Karoly=

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From Adnan.Merchant at TycoHealthcare.com  Thu Dec 12 17:53:52 2002
From: Adnan.Merchant at TycoHealthcare.com (Merchant, Adnan)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:53:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

Hi,

This is a subject that's been covered before so my apologies in advance.

How does one determine the correct size for a throttle body for an engine?
Flow rate is the most logical parameter but the few data points I have from
production engines only serve to confuse.   Here's what I've found so far:

Honda 2.0 non-VTEC: 55 mm
BMW 3.5 (M30): 65 mm (nominal, since it's tapered)
Mustang 5.0: 65 mm, 70 mm
Mustang 4.6: 70 mm

My application is a 3.0 straight six, normally aspirated, plenum style
intake.

Any suggestions on how to figure out the right size?   The original carbs
were twin SU, 2" throats.

Thanks,
Adnan

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From hugh at sol.co.uk  Thu Dec 12 18:20:32 2002
From: hugh at sol.co.uk (Hugh Keir)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:20:32 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max power
Message-ID: 

I have been playing around with the results from my DIY wideband for some
months now while tuning my ECU and am delighted with the information it
provides. Thank you Thank you Thank you to all involved.

I have an exhaust gas temperature sensor fitted and found that things were
getting a little hot on high boost.

I have now fitted a 50% water 50% methanol injection system and find that
the exhaust gas temperature on boost can be brought way down.

The Ideal Gas Law tells us that pressure = gas temperature * volume.

Question is:

If burning fuel + oxygen turns into heat and the heat gives pressure in the
chamber to move the piston down, does it then follow that you want the
maximum in cylinder temperature before melting things to get maximum
horsepower from your engine?

If this is true, the water methanol injection needs to be used to put a cap
on exhaust gas temperatures rather than hosing the mixture in to the
cylinders.

This may then raise the question of is it best to reduce the injection jet
size or reduce the % of methanol injected to bring the temperature back up.

Thanks

Hugh


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 12 18:34:36 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:34:36 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max power
Message-ID: 

--- Hugh Keir  wrote:

> If burning fuel + oxygen turns into heat and the
> heat gives pressure in the chamber to move the
> piston down, does it then follow that you want the
> maximum in cylinder temperature before melting
> things to get maximum horsepower from your engine?

Yes.  Kinetic energy is what you are going for.  The
more, the better, in terms of power.  Right up until
your components lose structural integrity from
heating, and your motor comes apart with a rather
forceful bang.

Heat engines are always a compromise between
structural integrity/long life and power output.  Thus
the increase in composites and ceramics in
cutting-edge research engines; the more heat you can
keep in the combustion chamber (and the exhaust, to
keep exhaust gas velocity high and aid extraction),
the better.  We've seen ceramic coatings on piston
faces for years; now there are ceramic cylinder liners
coming out, and more.  The future will be very interesting...

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Thu Dec 12 18:42:34 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (A6intruder)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:42:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max power
Message-ID: 

Hugh,

In theory you are right, you want the highest combustion temps possible for
best power & efficiency.  In reality, the other factors that weigh in are
pre-ignition and detonation, temperature limits of your engine parts (piston
domes, valves and exhaust turbines(turbo).  I assume since EGT became a
factor you are running a turbo.

Short answer, I would just run enough water/methanol to achieve the affects
you desire.

The water/methanol injection should/could allow you to run a little more
boost and possibly some more spark further increasing your power.

Have fun.

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Hugh Keir
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:59 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max power

I have been playing around with the results from my DIY wideband for some
months now while tuning my ECU and am delighted with the information it
provides. Thank you Thank you Thank you to all involved.

I have an exhaust gas temperature sensor fitted and found that things were
getting a little hot on high boost.

I have now fitted a 50% water 50% methanol injection system and find that
the exhaust gas temperature on boost can be brought way down.

The Ideal Gas Law tells us that pressure = gas temperature * volume.

Question is:

If burning fuel + oxygen turns into heat and the heat gives pressure in the
chamber to move the piston down, does it then follow that you want the
maximum in cylinder temperature before melting things to get maximum
horsepower from your engine?

If this is true, the water methanol injection needs to be used to put a cap
on exhaust gas temperatures rather than hosing the mixture in to the
cylinders.

This may then raise the question of is it best to reduce the injection jet
size or reduce the % of methanol injected to bring the temperature back up.

Thanks

Hugh


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From rjs at bnl.gov  Thu Dec 12 18:51:16 2002
From: rjs at bnl.gov (Ron Schroeder)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:51:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

Hi Adrian,

TB size is based on engines needed intake airflow requirements, as you
guessed, not by the engines displacement.  a small high reving engine would
use the same TB size as a larger low reving engine assuming they were both
about the same HP.  So look for a TB from an engine of similar HP to what
you are building rather than one from the same displacement.

Just a ballpark, a 2bbl 50mm would be a good starting point.  When I EFI'd
my engine, I replaced 2 - 36mm 2bbl carbs with 2 - 32mm 2bbl TBs and still
got 10%+ more power and a LOT better throttle response.

Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH
day 631 344-4561
nite 631 286-5677


----- Original Message -----
From: "Merchant, Adnan" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:56 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size


> Hi,
>
> This is a subject that's been covered before so my apologies in advance.
>
> How does one determine the correct size for a throttle body for an engine?
> Flow rate is the most logical parameter but the few data points I have
from
> production engines only serve to confuse.   Here's what I've found so far:
>
> Honda 2.0 non-VTEC: 55 mm
> BMW 3.5 (M30): 65 mm (nominal, since it's tapered)
> Mustang 5.0: 65 mm, 70 mm
> Mustang 4.6: 70 mm
>
> My application is a 3.0 straight six, normally aspirated, plenum style
> intake.
>
> Any suggestions on how to figure out the right size?   The original carbs
> were twin SU, 2" throats.
>
> Thanks,
> Adnan
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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From Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com  Thu Dec 12 19:09:06 2002
From: Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com (Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:09:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] '7747 trouble code list
Message-ID: 


--part1_ba.31fd72c0.2b2a38dc_boundary
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In a message dated 12/11/02 2:59:33 PM Central Standard Time, sravet at arm.com 
writes:


> > Does anyone know if the elimination of the oil
> > pressure switch will affect the ecm?
> 
> It won't.
> 
> --steve
> 
> 


The ECM will use the Fuel Pump Relay for pre-start pressurization (a few 
seconds) and during cranking. After the engine starts, and builds oil 
pressure the pump is powered through the pressure switch. I suppose 
eliminating these components and powering the pump with a "hot in run" 
curcuit would work, but the pump will run ANY time the key is on. Also, the 
OP switch prevents the engine from running with less than ~5psi. I consider 
it "cheap insurance" for my $$ engine.

With any setup, the ECM needs to see the voltage going to the fuel pump at 
pin B2. A code 54 will set if the ECM sees less than  2 volts for 1.5 sec 
since the last reference pulse was received. HTH...

Beau

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 12/11/02 2:59:33 PM Central Standard Time, sravet at arm.com writes:





> Does anyone know if the elimination of the oil

> pressure switch will affect the ecm?



It won't.



--steve









The ECM will use the Fuel Pump Relay for pre-start pressurization (a few seconds) and during cranking. After the engine starts, and builds oil pressure the pump is powered through the pressure switch. I suppose eliminating these components and powering the pump with a "hot in run" curcuit would work, but the pump will run ANY time the key is on. Also, the OP switch prevents the engine from running with less than ~5psi. I consider it "cheap insurance" for my $$ engine.



With any setup, the ECM needs to see the voltage going to the fuel pump at pin B2. A code 54 will set if the ECM sees less than  2 volts for 1.5 sec since the last reference pulse was received. HTH...



Beau

--part1_ba.31fd72c0.2b2a38dc_boundary--

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From WEG1192 at aol.com  Thu Dec 12 19:35:47 2002
From: WEG1192 at aol.com (WEG1192 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:35:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] '7747 trouble code list
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/12/2002 2:09:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ne14RoxCJ writes:

> The ECM will use the Fuel Pump Relay for pre-start pressurization (a few seconds) and during cranking. After the engine starts, and builds oil pressure the pump is powered through the pressure switch. I suppose eliminating these components and powering the pump with a "hot in run" curcuit would work, but the pump will run ANY time the key is on. Also, the OP switch prevents the engine from running with less than ~5psi. I 
> consider it "cheap insurance" for my $$ engine.

Not true. The engine will continue to run with no oil pressure due to the fuel pump relay being continuously on as long as the ECM recieves reference pulses from the distributor. The oil pressure switch is not a "low oil pressure safety". It is simply a back up in case the fuel pump relay fails.

The engine will still crank without the fuel pump relay, but cranking times will be longer since it will take some time for oil pressure to build and start the fuel pump.

JW
www.customefis.com
 

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Thu Dec 12 21:07:23 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:07:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV and EEC-V
Message-ID: 

I have searched through the the archives and found a bit here and there about
this subject what is current and the best tools available for this ECM. The
closer to real time the better. Would gladly trade money up front for reduced
time on the dyno..
Dave


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From nwester at eidnet.org  Thu Dec 12 21:47:44 2002
From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:47:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] '7747 trouble code list
Message-ID: 

Exactly. John's nailed it.

When the FP relay driver circuit in the ECM fails, you'll get extended
cranking before the fuel pump fires up. The oil pressure switch will run the
FP standalone.

Lyndon

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] '7747 trouble code list


> In a message dated 12/12/2002 2:09:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ne14RoxCJ
writes:
>
> > The ECM will use the Fuel Pump Relay for pre-start pressurization (a few
seconds) and during cranking. After the engine starts, and builds oil
pressure the pump is powered through the pressure switch. I suppose
eliminating these components and powering the pump with a "hot in run"
curcuit would work, but the pump will run ANY time the key is on. Also, the
OP switch prevents the engine from running with less than ~5psi. I
> > consider it "cheap insurance" for my $$ engine.
>
> Not true. The engine will continue to run with no oil pressure due to the
fuel pump relay being continuously on as long as the ECM recieves reference
pulses from the distributor. The oil pressure switch is not a "low oil
pressure safety". It is simply a back up in case the fuel pump relay fails.
>
> The engine will still crank without the fuel pump relay, but cranking
times will be longer since it will take some time for oil pressure to build
and start the fuel pump.
>
> JW
> www.customefis.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From kaizen__ at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 12 22:22:11 2002
From: kaizen__ at hotmail.com (Bevan Weiss)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:22:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max power
Message-ID: 

It's not a high output temperature that you want, it's a very large change
in temperature from input to output.  You want the coldest input gas (or not
gas if you can get it in there) that you can get and the largest change in
output gas temperature, this does inevitably mean that you want the highest
temperature possible, although not at a likewise increase in input
temperature.  If you have a limited EGT then perhaps you should look more
into actually cooling the intake charge for more performance.

Remember that power isn't the amount of pressure in the cylinder, but rather
the change in pressure within the cylinder.


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 12 22:33:36 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:33:36 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max power
Message-ID: 

--- Bevan Weiss  wrote:

> Remember that power isn't the amount of pressure in
> the cylinder, but rather the change in pressure
> within the cylinder.

Good point, and thanks.  Sometimes I stare at the
trees so long, I forget about the forest.  ;)  I'm in
the process of writing a book, and have to keep
reminding myself that people are going to understand
overview concepts better than giving them all the
details and letting them figure out the principles for themselves.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Thu Dec 12 23:23:51 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:23:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 12:56:49PM -0500, Merchant, Adnan wrote:
> This is a subject that's been covered before so my apologies in advance.

> How does one determine the correct size for a throttle body for an engine?

Air flow - and hence maximum power.

> Flow rate is the most logical parameter but the few data points I have from
> production engines only serve to confuse.   Here's what I've found so far:

> Honda 2.0 non-VTEC: 55 mm
> BMW 3.5 (M30): 65 mm (nominal, since it's tapered)
> Mustang 5.0: 65 mm, 70 mm
> Mustang 4.6: 70 mm
> 
> My application is a 3.0 straight six, normally aspirated, plenum style
> intake.
> 
> Any suggestions on how to figure out the right size?   The original carbs
> were twin SU, 2" throats.

One approach is to use ganged throttles in the same throttle body; a
small one (about 30mm) for small throttle openings and a large one
(>50mm) for mid-range to high loads. i.e. the larger one doesn't
start to open until the smaller one is almost fully open. That
provides good throttle control - nothing more.

Quite a common arrangement on VW-Audi, Porsche, etc. up until
throttle bodies become motorised.

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
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From shannen at grolen.com  Fri Dec 13 00:37:04 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:37:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] '7747 trouble code list
Message-ID: 

The fuel pump relay is energized whenever the ecm recieves reference
pulses.  It's closed when the engine starts and when it runs.  The oil
pressure switch can be completely removed and the engine will run as if it
were in place.

Try it and see.  In fact, the schematic on the ftp site may show the
wiring.

Shannen

Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com wrote:

> The ECM will use the Fuel Pump Relay for pre-start pressurization (a few
> seconds) and during cranking. After the engine starts, and builds oil
> pressure the pump is powered through the pressure switch. I suppose
> eliminating these components and powering the pump with a "hot in run"
> curcuit would work, but the pump will run ANY time the key is on. Also, the
> OP switch prevents the engine from running with less than ~5psi. I consider
> it "cheap insurance" for my $$ engine.
> 
> With any setup, the ECM needs to see the voltage going to the fuel pump at
> pin B2. A code 54 will set if the ECM sees less than  2 volts for 1.5 sec
> since the last reference pulse was received. HTH...
> 
> Beau
> 
>   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                Name: FILE.HTM
>    FILE.HTM    Type: Hypertext Markup Language (text/html)
>            Encoding: 7bit

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From pedward at apsoft.com  Fri Dec 13 00:40:42 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:40:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV and EEC-V
Message-ID: 

Dave,

The EEC-IV and EEC-V markets are really not very user friendly.  There are very
few tools and less information on how to use them.

The hardest part of tuning the Ford computers is understanding how Ford made them
work in the first place.  The tools out there merely allow you to change settings.

To date I only know of 3 commercial tools for tuning and only one is really realtime.

The Tweecer is pseudo realtime in that you can get realtime datalogging from it,
but AFAIK you cannot tune settings in realtime.

The EEC-Tuner is non-realtime.  It's a serial flash adaptor more or less.  It
takes a downloaded patch file and applies it to the ROM and substitutes it's
own RAM for the EEC ROM.  It has extension code for some processors that allows
datalogging.

The last tool is the "Romulator" and Revolution software from Diablo.  Supposedly
this is the equipment they use to realtime tune cars themselves.  It's going
to be a very restricted distribution ("We don't want a bunch of people calling
us all the time for 'how to tune' support").

The first 2 solutions cost about the same IIRC, about $350-400.  The last solution
requires you to be a Diablo dealer on top of purchasing the equipment and paying
licensing fees to them (I doubt they will give up their ability to get a cut of
custom tunes).

--Perry

On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 04:18:19PM -0500, Dave Dahlgren wrote:
> I have searched through the the archives and found a bit here and there about
> this subject what is current and the best tools available for this ECM. The
> closer to real time the better. Would gladly trade money up front for reduced
> time on the dyno..
> Dave
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.
                             -- Benjamin Franklin

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 13 02:02:18 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:02:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van
Message-ID: 

oh tah,

(as I hide my right chin under my left armpit;)

Well there is a bit of idealism there and some (minor)
practical issues to handle but feasible from what I understand,
somebody just has to 'put it all together' :-)

rgds

Mike


At 04:36 AM 12/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Mike, you are an extraordinarily well-read guy...
>
>On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:02:17 Mike  writes:
>> Yeah Bevan, - thats what I like about solar too :-)
>> 
>> There's another potential energy source using supercritical water:-
>> 
>> ie. Place water in a pressure vessel to around 3250psi, heat to
>> 400deg C (its still liquid water) and now its in an equilibrium
>> between being an ionic solvent and a non-ionic solvent at the
>> same time or in a superposition state of the two - with some
>> quite nice properties :)
>> 
>> Add organic waste - such as from pharmacuticals, kitchen waste,
>> garden waste or whatever - such as through a crusher so its a
>> paste and manageable through the system,
>> 
>> Add air and combustion takes place, which raises the pressure
>> and the temperature - all whils the water is in liquid form,
>> not sure if light is also emitted but wouldnt it be spooky
>> to watch the combustion glow in liquid water through a quartz
>> window !
>> 
>> The heat generated is used to drive a turbine, and maintain the
>> systems base point operation provided you have enough organic
>> waste - which shouldnt be a problem for an 'idle' mode, batteries
>> of course can be used to kickstart it as for a car ( but i am
>> guessing this combustion process would be too slow to have one
>> of these things in our boot)
>> 
>> The combustion is for the most part complete and the only
>> waste products (by far) are N2 and CO2 which could be drawn off
>> through your classic membrane separator to supply industry.
>> 
>> The other potential is to use it in a partial combustion format
>> with safe fuels (non pharmacuticals) to generate CO, that and
>> H2 passed over a copper catalyst will generate methanol, the
>> heat source and pressure is already there so to speak, so
>> we could in theory use this system to get rid of kitchen and
>> garden waste, generate heat for home heating and cooking and
>> the outcome is methanol to run our cars...
>> 
>> Hope the petrochemical groups allow this email to get through ;-)
>> 
>> Rgds
>> 
>> mike
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> At 08:38 PM 12/12/2002 +1300, you wrote:
>> >I think that the more important aspect of solar energy etc is that 
>> the
>> >energy required to harvest any power from it is a once off charge.  
>> Gasoline
>> >(and other fuels) which require a cost in energy to get some back 
>> out of the
>> >system.  ie you have to drill for the oil etc, then transport it 
>> etc to the
>> >place of combustion, with solar/wind you just setup the 
>> panels/turbines
>> >where you require the power and that's the largest energy cost of 
>> the
>> >system, the rest is maintanance.
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Mike" 
>> >To: 
>> >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:24 PM
>> >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Veggie van
>> >
>> >
>> >> Sure - but comparatively speaking most of the energy (by far)
>> >> is provided by their own product,
>> >>
>> >> Thats a rather significant paradigm, not reached by other
>> >> energy sources and over a short time period...
>> >>
>> >> rgds
>> >>
>> >> mike
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> At 08:13 AM 12/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >Yes, but unless the factory is right on top of the sand pit, 
>> someone
>> >> >still has to excavate the sand and deliver it.  Even if this was 
>> done by
>> >> >people with buckets they would need to eat to refuel, the food 
>> they
>> >> >consume would somehow have used power to be grown and harvested 
>> (water
>> >> >irrigation, etc).  And the unknown is always environmental 
>> impact, who
>> >> >knows what impact a great big sandpit will have.
>> >> >
>> >> >You can keep going forever, hence the ease of making any form of 
>> energy
>> >> >seem better than others.
>> >> >
>> >> >Dan  dzorde at erggroup.com
>> >> >
>> >> >>Well  sand is pretty cheap, easy to clean and easy to
>> >> >>convert to silicon, all you need is a bit of power !
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Diy_efi mailing list
>> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >>
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
>
>
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 13 02:31:55 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:31:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max power
Message-ID: 

At 02:34 PM 12/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Good point, and thanks.  Sometimes I stare at the
>trees so long, I forget about the forest.  ;)  I'm in
>the process of writing a book, and have to keep
>reminding myself that people are going to understand
>overview concepts better than giving them all the
>details and letting them figure out the principles for themselves.

Such as "if it aint broke dont fix it",

Will you put that in your book ?

*grin*

Rgds

mike

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From sendhil.s at lycos.com  Fri Dec 13 05:08:46 2002
From: sendhil.s at lycos.com (Sendhil Solai)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 02:08:46 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Hello!

I wanted to know how you can get the Timing Advance Curve for an Engine. That is the minimum advance for maximum torque at diffrent RPM's. 
How do engine manufacturer's do this? Any method by which we can go the DIY way?
Your comments will be appreciated! Thank you for your time.

Stay well.
Sendhil.


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From patc4 at optushome.com.au  Fri Dec 13 05:34:02 2002
From: patc4 at optushome.com.au (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 02:34:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Jeep connectors
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C2A131.E2CF96C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>Hello,
>I want to build my own wiring harness for a 4.0 L Jeep engine but can't 
>find the connectors anywhere. The sensors are made in 2000 and look 
>different from earlier models. I searched the whole internet but didn't 
>find any information about it. The plugs look similar to these made by 
>Amp or Delphi but they aren't. I also can't take a factory wiring 
>harness since I plan to use my own engine computer instead of the Jeep 
>computer. Maybe someone could help me.

I lifted the hood of my 2002 Wrangler this morning to fill the washer bottle
and had a look around, while I was there. The connectors look to me like
Deutsch connectors which are now stocked by MSD ignition.

The website is http://www.deutschecd.com/ and I think the connectors in
question are from the Industrial products division.


Patrick Cahill
Smartlub
T 03-9766-2424
F 03-9766-1008
M 0407-888-182
E smartlub at optushome.com.au


------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C2A131.E2CF96C0
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef;
	name="winmail.dat"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment;
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From patc4 at optushome.com.au  Fri Dec 13 05:34:07 2002
From: patc4 at optushome.com.au (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 02:34:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie?
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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>Do you guys know if the wide open throttle on most
>production sports cars is at the maximum duty cycle of
>the injectors, or do most manufacturers have some head
>room in the injectors like 20% more room?

Production injectors typically only run at about 60-70% duty cycle although
this varies from system to system. Bosch systems tend to be closer to max
duty than Denso systems for instance.

Patrick Cahill


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From Joe.Doty at lcnetwork.com  Fri Dec 13 05:38:33 2002
From: Joe.Doty at lcnetwork.com (Joe Doty)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 02:38:33 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction
Message-ID: 

I've tried for many hours to break apart digifant I code...it's tough.
I'm using digifant I on a turbo 16v.  If you plan on swapping a 16v into
a digifant car, I would personally swap it over to digifant I if the car
is digifant II.  Reason being is because SNS tuning has lots of N/A
chips for digifant I that work very well, and the swap would be easy. =20

Joe Doty
IT/Development
joe at lcnetwork.com=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Richards, Sean [mailto:Sean.Richards at diageo.com]=20
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 10:49 AM
To: 'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'
Cc: 'bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au'
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction

how do i reprogram the chips.
can i do it myself or is it something left to a specialist of some sort.
if not where can i get the gismo to do it myself.





On Sat, Dec 07, 2002 at 05:51:49PM -0000, Richards, Sean wrote:
> need to modify a digifant efi to use a 16v engine
> anyone have any tricks

Easy one: Use the Digifant from the last 16V GTIs (2-litre) built in
Europe.

If you plan to use one from an 8V engine, then you have to find
somebody who can re-program the thing. It's not exactly
straight-forward; and depending on the vintage, it could be a
Motorola chip doing the fuel injection, and an Intel chip doing the
ignition. :-(

Air flow metering shoul be done by air-mass meter; the flap meter
from an 8V will top out well before the 16V runs out of steam.

--=20
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
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From Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com  Fri Dec 13 06:59:01 2002
From: Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com (Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 03:59:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] '7747 trouble code list
Message-ID: 


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In a message dated 12/12/02 1:39:55 PM Central Standard Time, WEG1192 at aol.com 
writes:


> Not true. The engine will continue to run with no oil pressure due to the 
> fuel pump relay being continuously on as long as the ECM recieves reference 
> 

Hmmm... I was under the impression that the fuel pump relay de-energized once 
the engine was started and power came from the OP switch. I guess I have some 
wiring mods to look into... thanks for the correction....

Beau

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In a message dated 12/12/02 1:39:55 PM Central Standard Time, WEG1192 at aol.com writes:





Not true. The engine will continue to run with no oil pressure due to the fuel pump relay being continuously on as long as the ECM recieves reference pulses from the distributor.




Hmmm... I was under the impression that the fuel pump relay de-energized once the engine was started and power came from the OP switch. I guess I have some wiring mods to look into... thanks for the correction....



Beau

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From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Fri Dec 13 07:20:22 2002
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:20:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Lubrication - wheel bearings
Message-ID: 



--------------010700000706080804040709
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>
>
Mike, Bernd, Have you gents heard of Pro-Ma lubricants: Oil additives, 
Wheel Bearing Grease, and Lubricant spray? I use it and sell it and have 
found it excellent for reducing friction in bearings and also sliding 
surfaces - sometimes too much! - one spring loaded, sliding surface 
changed (with one application) from being so stiff it was almost 
impossible to move without breaking the mechanism to being so slippery 
that it wouldn't stay in any location (the spring loading hadn't 
changed!). I have been using these products now for about 10 years and 
find them great. If anyone wants more info please contact me directly 
(off list) and I will be happy to let you know more. Regards Bill 
Message: 2 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 08:55:16 +0800 From: Bernd Felsche 
 To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: 
[Diy_efi] (off topic) Disk pad wear reduction ... Reply-To: 
diy_efi at diy-efi.org On Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 09:16:09AM -0600, Greg 
Hermann wrote:

>> At 11:59 PM 12/6/02, Mike wrote:
>  
>

>>> >next thing to check is the issue of light greased vs sealed oil bearings
>>> >for the wheels 
>>    
>>

>>> >*grin*
>>    
>>

>>> >Thanks for going to the trouble to describe this :)
>>    
>>

>> For reduced wheel bearing drag in an economy run, one might try
>> what the Nascar boys do for qualifying--10 wt or light synthetic
>> oil in the wheel bearings, no grease.
>  
>

Dry, with no seals is even lower friction as there's no viscous drag
on the rolling. I don't think that the normal wheel bearing will do
3000km though... not the way bearings are loaded and sized for road
cars. Heavier grease lube acts more like a gear-oil by helping to
distribute contact pressure resulting in longer life.

If you want to try it out, strip down the bearing an wipe it "dry"
before re-assembly. There are some lubricants that can be used for
dry-lube such as spray-on PTFE or silicone; or even gun-oil such as
Ballistol. All of these tend to leave a stick-free surface.

Coincidentally, I'm working on the design of wheel hubs for a solar
race car.

The reason for running some lubrication is because the diameter of
the inner race is different to that of the outer race so the rolling
element has to slip against one or both surfaces. It follows that
the closer the circumferences of the races, the lower the amount of
slip - been thinking about this sort of thing a lot over the past
couple of weeks.

Then there's also the matter of lubricating the cage...

-- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ 
/ ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | 
Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread!



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From klox at juno.com  Fri Dec 13 07:29:12 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:29:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

The SDS folks I just got done reading from their site say this about
throttle bodies:  if the vacuum taken off the MAP sensor is higher at
full throttle than at idle, your throttle body is too small.

And here is a rule of thumb.  Since flow rate is (density) x (flow area)
x (flow speed), and since flow resistance in a given kind of obstruction
depends strongly on flow speed through it, if you know a certain engine
has a given TB size, and the engine you are looking at is, for example,
twice as large, then in general, its TB should be larger by a multiple of
(root)2.  No doubt there are lots of other factors, but I don't know any
more than that.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:56:49 -0500 "Merchant, Adnan"
 writes:
> Hi,
> 
> This is a subject that's been covered before so my apologies in 
> advance.
> 
> How does one determine the correct size for a throttle body for an 
> engine?
> Flow rate is the most logical parameter but the few data points I 
> have from
> production engines only serve to confuse.   Here's what I've found 
> so far:
> 
> Honda 2.0 non-VTEC: 55 mm
> BMW 3.5 (M30): 65 mm (nominal, since it's tapered)
> Mustang 5.0: 65 mm, 70 mm
> Mustang 4.6: 70 mm
> 
> My application is a 3.0 straight six, normally aspirated, plenum 
> style
> intake.
> 
> Any suggestions on how to figure out the right size?   The original 
> carbs
> were twin SU, 2" throats.
> 
> Thanks,
> Adnan
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From klox at juno.com  Fri Dec 13 07:31:12 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:31:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max power
Message-ID: 

Mike, behave yourself...

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:42:17 Mike  writes:
> At 02:34 PM 12/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >Good point, and thanks.  Sometimes I stare at the
> >trees so long, I forget about the forest.  ;)  I'm in
> >the process of writing a book, and have to keep
> >reminding myself that people are going to understand
> >overview concepts better than giving them all the
> >details and letting them figure out the principles for themselves.
> 
> Such as "if it aint broke dont fix it",
> 
> Will you put that in your book ?
> 
> *grin*
> 
> Rgds
> 
> mike
> 
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From klox at juno.com  Fri Dec 13 07:31:26 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:31:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

The DIY way is to advance until torque drops, or until it pings,
whichever is first.  If it pings first, drop it back a notch, or use
higher octane.

Honda engines, esp. the ones with VTec, tend to have smaller bores and
longer strokes for a given displacement, and a smaller bore is naturally
more ping-resistant, because knock is a function of the paraffins in the
fuel degrading to compounds with a much lower flash point, and this takes
time, and the larger your bore, the longer it takes the fireball to
expand out to the edges.  Therefore, even on low octane pump gas, Hondas
can be advanced to maximum torque at a given RPM before there is danger
of pinging.  Know this from experience.

If you are talking about a programmable chip, where you can set the
numbers at each point, it works the same way, except the process has to
be done for each set point.  But a rule of thumb is, greater VE calls for
less advance, but greater RPM calls for more advance.  The torque curve
of an engine at stock is a good starting place to guess at VE.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:17:41 +0530 "Sendhil Solai" 
writes:
> Hello!
> 
> I wanted to know how you can get the Timing Advance Curve for an 
> Engine. That is the minimum advance for maximum torque at diffrent 
> RPM's. 
> How do engine manufacturer's do this? Any method by which we can go 
> the DIY way?
> Your comments will be appreciated! Thank you for your time.
> 
> Stay well.
> Sendhil.
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
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From klox at juno.com  Fri Dec 13 07:31:27 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 04:31:27 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max power
Message-ID: 

It seems to me, not knowing much about the specifics of this topic, that
having extremely hot exhaust gases is a symptom of inefficiency in your
cycle.  Heat = energy lost.

Plus, I have heard there is a relationship between fuel mix and EGT,
reliable enough that you can use it to diagnose fuel problems.  I have
heard the optimum EGT is 1500 F, and that 1800 F is hot enough in the
exhaust to denote cylinder temperatures hot enough to melt aluminum
pistons.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:26:56 +1300 "Bevan Weiss" 
writes:
> It's not a high output temperature that you want, it's a very large 
> change
> in temperature from input to output.  You want the coldest input gas 
> (or not
> gas if you can get it in there) that you can get and the largest 
> change in
> output gas temperature, this does inevitably mean that you want the 
> highest
> temperature possible, although not at a likewise increase in input
> temperature.  If you have a limited EGT then perhaps you should look 
> more
> into actually cooling the intake charge for more performance.
> 
> Remember that power isn't the amount of pressure in the cylinder, 
> but rather
> the change in pressure within the cylinder.
> 
> 
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> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 13 08:40:22 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 05:40:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Lubrication - wheel bearings
Message-ID: 

On Fri, Dec 13, 2002 at 06:27:35PM +1100, Bill Washington wrote:

> Mike, Bernd, Have you gents heard of Pro-Ma lubricants: Oil additives, 
> Wheel Bearing Grease, and Lubricant spray? I use it and sell it and have 

They're nothing special.

There are plenty of fringe-product being multi-level marketed.
Some work better than others. Some are expensively-repackaged
products that can be bought for a fraction of the price from other
sources. And some degrade other substances that co-habit engines,
transmissions and bearings.

Unless you're working for K-mart, etc; you would never say that what
you're selling is crap. I'm not saying that it is; the lack of
_technical_ literature for the product amongst the pile of
testimonials in the marketing literature rings enough alarm bells to
make me reach for a barge-pole.

Absence of a company website; anywhere on the planet, makes me worry
about the value of guarrantees of performance.

> found it excellent for reducing friction in bearings and also sliding 
> surfaces - sometimes too much! - one spring loaded, sliding surface 
> changed (with one application) from being so stiff it was almost 
> impossible to move without breaking the mechanism to being so slippery 
> that it wouldn't stay in any location (the spring loading hadn't 
> changed!). 

Just about any lubricant will achieve that.

> I have been using these products now for about 10 years and 
> find them great. If anyone wants more info please contact me directly 
> (off list) and I will be happy to let you know more. Regards Bill 

Apologies if this seems harsh; but it's what you should expect for
unsolicited advertising.

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
 X   against HTML mail     | Copy me into your ~/.signature
/ \  and postings          | to help me spread!

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Dec 13 10:06:41 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:06:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV and EEC-V
Message-ID: 

Well that sounds pretty disapointing.. I did see something about a Ford
Motorsport EPEC that seemed to be real time as well, but no one seems to know
much about it. I wonder if that could be run in real time and then the image put
into a chip..

I am looking at the tweecker now to see if they are going to be the way to go..
The only trouble I found with Diablosport so far is that they don't even have a
contact number on the web site. If the dealer cost was not that bad I might be
able to roll thiat cost into this project as it is for an SCCA car that has to
run the EEC-IV but allows many mods to the engine.

Is the EEC-IV smart enough if a mass air car with a large air meter to be able
to only reprogram the meter meter calibration and the injector size and have it
figure out the rest, spark tables not with standing.. Those should be easy
enough to program off line and make another pull on the dyno to see how it went.

Dave


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Dec 13 10:10:20 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:10:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

I can tell you for sure on a N/A engine if the manifold pressure drop 1.5" Hg at
WOT that the Tbody is  ok if it gets much more than 2.5" at WOT it is too
small.. For all out race stuff with no consideration for tip in performance or
low speed torque 0.75" to 1.00" seems to work well also.
Dave

Eric Byrd wrote:
> 
> The SDS folks I just got done reading from their site say this about
> throttle bodies:  if the vacuum taken off the MAP sensor is higher at
> full throttle than at idle, your throttle body is too small.
> 
> And here is a rule of thumb.  Since flow rate is (density) x (flow area)
> x (flow speed), and since flow resistance in a given kind of obstruction
> depends strongly on flow speed through it, if you know a certain engine
> has a given TB size, and the engine you are looking at is, for example,
> twice as large, then in general, its TB should be larger by a multiple of
> (root)2.  No doubt there are lots of other factors, but I don't know any
> more than that.


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Dec 13 10:24:13 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:24:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max power
Message-ID: 

>From what I have learned on the dyno over the years is 1350 for a N/A piston
engine works well and 1500 to 1700 on a turbo high boost engine is common. That
N/A engine on a very long straight away ( Bonneville Salt Flats 5 miles) will go
to 1500 to 1550 once it stabilizes.. I have also found that is just as linked if
not more so to the timing as well. Advance the timing and it will get colder
until you go too far, retard it and it will heat up some. The problem with the
turbo seems to be that they are generally set up too rich for safety and timing
retarded too much for safety and the EGT is at the moon because the engine is so
"safe'.

Dave

Eric Byrd wrote:
> 
> It seems to me, not knowing much about the specifics of this topic, that
> having extremely hot exhaust gases is a symptom of inefficiency in your
> cycle.  Heat = energy lost.
> 
> Plus, I have heard there is a relationship between fuel mix and EGT,
> reliable enough that you can use it to diagnose fuel problems.  I have
> heard the optimum EGT is 1500 F, and that 1800 F is hot enough in the
> exhaust to denote cylinder temperatures hot enough to melt aluminum
> pistons.
>


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From Tlsalt at aol.com  Fri Dec 13 12:55:02 2002
From: Tlsalt at aol.com (Tlsalt at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:55:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 


On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 12:56:49PM -0500, Merchant, Adnan wrote:

> How does one determine the correct size for a throttle body for an engine?
> Flow rate is the most logical parameter but the few data points I have from
> production engines only serve to confuse.   Here's what I've found so far:

> Honda 2.0 non-VTEC: 55 mm
> BMW 3.5 (M30): 65 mm (nominal, since it's tapered)
> Mustang 5.0: 65 mm, 70 mm
> Mustang 4.6: 70 mm
> 
> My application is a 3.0 straight six, normally aspirated, plenum style
> intake.
> 
> Any suggestions on how to figure out the right size?   The original carbs
> were twin SU, 2" throats.

Hello Adnan,

TB should be sized for the horse power of the engine.  Don't use the SU HD8 
as a guide (50mm X 2),  they are variable venturi carbs and a 3 liter six 
would never pull enough air get the pistons all the way up (2  HD8's=600cfm). 
A 3 liter engine only pulls 400 cfm at 7000 rpm (@ 100% VE). You are on the 
right track comparing OEM's sizing.  For example, Ford has a 345hp crate 
engine with a 65mm TB, so you know the TB is at least good enough for that 
output.  Jaguar used a 65mm TB on a 4.2 six, with a higher output than the 
same motor with 3 HD8's.  I would go with something in the 55mm range, unless 
you are talking really high rpm. The only problem with going too large is tip 
in response.  Take a closer look at the BMW sixes, I think the 2.5 and 2.8 
used a 51mm TB.

Paul

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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Fri Dec 13 14:04:49 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (A6intruder)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:04:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV and EEC-V
Message-ID: 

Dave,

I didn't catch all of your discussion except that listed below but if you
want to tune Ford's EEC IV, I have listed several links below and a very
helpful EEC Tuner discussion forum.  I think there is a TwEECer forum as
well hosted by the same guy.

I am currently running a 1994 Mustang GT with a mild NA setup.  I use the
EEC Tuner, which through the use of a laptop allows me to change injector
sizes, air meter calibration and a whole bunch of other settings as needed.
The 'Tuner also allows me to data log right into the Ford EEC memory for
retrieval and analysis.  I have installed a DIY-WB that is data logged as
well and has a real-time display.  The data logging is very important to see
exactly what is being commanded and then collecting what really happened so
you can make appropriate adjustments.

I think the TwEECer has every bit as much versatility and possibly some
advantages to the EEC Tuner, it is a newer product.  The only real support
for the EEC Tuner is the EEC Tuner discussion forum, I don't know about the
TwEECer.

If you are setting up for a certain class of racing and aren't restricted to
the year of computer, go for the A9L model that was installed in 1993 and
earlier Mustang GT's.  It is the best supported of the models and easier to
tune.  The 1994-5 T4M0 like I have is still pretty flexible but is not as
well understood.

You mention only wanting to change injector size and MAF function and
letting the computer figure out the rest.  That really depends on how wild
your ride is and how good your drivability needs to be.  If you understand
how the EEC works you can get close pretty quickly but it is issues like
cold start and idle at 27 deg F that can add work.  I use my car as a daily
driver, it has to work in all modes.  The nice thing with the EEC Tuner or
the TwEECer is that you can make as many changes and experiment to your
heart's desire for the original $4-500, no charges each time you want to
change like with the custom burned chips.

http://www.iwantperformance.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
This link has archives with many posts with excellent information on tuning
the EEC IV & V.  The site owner, Raymond, also hosts the EEC Tuner
discussion group.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EECTuner/
This is the same discussion group, different format.

Have fun.

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Dave Dahlgren
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 5:20 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV and EEC-V

Well that sounds pretty disapointing.. I did see something about a Ford
Motorsport EPEC that seemed to be real time as well, but no one seems to
know
much about it. I wonder if that could be run in real time and then the image
put
into a chip..

I am looking at the tweecker now to see if they are going to be the way to
go..
The only trouble I found with Diablosport so far is that they don't even
have a
contact number on the web site. If the dealer cost was not that bad I might
be
able to roll thiat cost into this project as it is for an SCCA car that has
to
run the EEC-IV but allows many mods to the engine.

Is the EEC-IV smart enough if a mass air car with a large air meter to be
able
to only reprogram the meter meter calibration and the injector size and have
it
figure out the rest, spark tables not with standing.. Those should be easy
enough to program off line and make another pull on the dyno to see how it
went.

Dave


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From thomas.renegar at nist.gov  Fri Dec 13 14:05:03 2002
From: thomas.renegar at nist.gov (Brian Renegar)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:05:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV and EEC-V
Message-ID: 


>The Tweecer is pseudo realtime in that you can get realtime datalogging 
>from it,
>but AFAIK you cannot tune settings in realtime.

Yes you can.  I have a TwEECer, and have done so.  I can make changes to 
the tune, while the engine is running.

While I agree that there seems to be a whole lot of secrecy regarding the 
inner workings of the EECIV and V processors, a few people (those that have 
the products you mentioned) have figured out quite a lot.  The TwEECer RT 
(datalogging version) is comparable to a stand alone DFI system, except 
that I would say it has much better driveability provisions and emissions 
compliance.  This is because instead of being based on an aftermarket 
processor, it's based on Ford's years of research and development in those 
areas.  You start out with Ford's tune, and modify it to suit your needs.

Dave:  Yes, you can alter just the MAF curve and injector size if you 
wanted.  You can do as little or as much alteration of the stock .bin 
files.  BTW, what SCCA class are you running in?  I thought that A/S was 
still required to run carb's.

Brian


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From fatbillybob at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 13 14:12:51 2002
From: fatbillybob at yahoo.com (bob limo)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:12:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ? refined
Message-ID: 

I originally posted: ">Do you guys know if the wide
open throttle on most
>production sports cars is at the maximum duty cycle
of
>the injectors, or do most manufacturers have some
head
>room in the injectors like 20% more room?"

The reason for the ? was that I was thinking about a
way to just turn on the injectors 100% at wide open
throttle and run a little nitrous oxide as close to
stoichimetric as possible.  Problems are: 1) some on
this list say duty cycles are at max in general and
some say they are not. If there is headroom then in
theory you haev more fuel capacity to prevent a lean
burn. 2) events are happening so fast that are all the
injectors really spraying all the time at WOT anyway? 
Things aren't really that sequential so I don't think
it matters if I dump fuel for those short times 100%
thru all injectors? 3)Does wiring up injectors that
way cause any bad feedback to ECU?  It is a real
hassle to figure out how to nitrous a dry manifold,
with minimal effort,  never ment to flow a wet
mixture.  I may end up fining that the headroom left
in stock injectors is so little that Nitrous just does
not work well this way.

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From RRauscher at nni.com  Fri Dec 13 14:29:22 2002
From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:29:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ? refined
Message-ID: 

The WOT injector DC for every engine combo is
different. Why don't you either datalog or measure
the DC of the combo in question. Then you will know.

Of course larger injectors are always an option too.

BobR.


bob limo wrote:
> 
> I originally posted: ">Do you guys know if the wide
> open throttle on most
> >production sports cars is at the maximum duty cycle
> of
> >the injectors, or do most manufacturers have some
> head
> >room in the injectors like 20% more room?"
> 
> The reason for the ? was that I was thinking about a
> way to just turn on the injectors 100% at wide open
> throttle and run a little nitrous oxide as close to
> stoichimetric as possible.  Problems are: 1) some on
> this list say duty cycles are at max in general and
> some say they are not. If there is headroom then in
> theory you haev more fuel capacity to prevent a lean
> burn. 2) events are happening so fast that are all the
> injectors really spraying all the time at WOT anyway?
> Things aren't really that sequential so I don't think
> it matters if I dump fuel for those short times 100%
> thru all injectors? 3)Does wiring up injectors that
> way cause any bad feedback to ECU?  It is a real
> hassle to figure out how to nitrous a dry manifold,
> with minimal effort,  never ment to flow a wet
> mixture.  I may end up fining that the headroom left
> in stock injectors is so little that Nitrous just does
> not work well this way.
> 
> __________________________________________________

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From Tlsalt at aol.com  Fri Dec 13 14:37:43 2002
From: Tlsalt at aol.com (Tlsalt at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:37:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

Eric Byrd wrote,

The SDS folks I just got done reading from their site say this about
throttle bodies:  if the vacuum taken off the MAP sensor is higher at
full throttle than at idle, your throttle body is too small.

I found out some more info.  An engine needs 5.7 cc/min of fuel per hp. 


Hello Eric,

Read that again......another impossibility.  MAP sensors read manifold 
pressure, vacuum in an NA engine.  Just what kind of engine could have higher 
vacuum at WOT than when the same engine is sucking against a closed throttle 
plate?  No chance. What they mean is if vacuum start climbing after reaching 
a minimum at WOT under load.

The amount of fuel an engine needs is not 5.7cc/min per hp.  It varies for 
every engine and is the BSFC.  How much ?  Engines from the same manufacture 
can vary by as much as 18% (high comp Heron vs low compression Hemi) and 
there are no accurate sweeping generalizations about BSFC. In fact, most of 
these subjects are far more complicated than you suggest.

I'd speculate that the main reason some Hondas are less detonation prone is 
not the bore size, it is the design of the combustion chamber at and near 
TDC. The difference in distance is very small on these little engines. There 
are plenty of small bore detonation prone designs.  Small bore engines with 
large, open combustion chambers (like Hemis), that need tall piston domes to 
have decent compression ratios, are very detonation sensitive. Their 
combustion chambers at TDC are long thin crescents.  Many Hondas have small, 
compact combustion chambers, with almost flat top pistons and are much less 
sensitive.

I agree, speculation is not a crime, but offering erroneous, sweeping 
generalizations as "advice" on this list should elicit some response.  What 
ever happened to Bruce ?   I'm sure he would have something to say about this 
subject........

Paul

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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Fri Dec 13 14:53:00 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (A6intruder)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:53:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ? refined
Message-ID: 

Bob,

Your question #2 below suggests that you are mixing "sequential" with duty
cycle.  Sequential means each injector only fires when needed for it's
cylinder.  Duty cycle refers to the time open of one injector versus the max
time available for one cycle of that cylinder.  100% duty cycle is the only
time all injectors would be open at the same time.

I don't see any reason you would want to run 100% duty cycle. If you are
flowing enough air to max your duty cycle you no longer have control over
A/F as your airflow continues to rise.  Once you've hit 100% duty cycle you
can't get more fuel into the engine short of changing fuel pressure (but
then you're into a second control system and greater complexity with less
accuracy).  The factory wouldn't intentionally let 100% duty cycle happen.

If your intent is to add nitrous you will need some "head room" to allow
extra fuel to be added when you inject the nitrous.  I think at least one of
the "dry" kits injects the nitrous ahead of the MAF so that the computer
reads the nitrous as more air and automatically adds fuel.  With the EEC
Tuner you could go this route and then make adjustments to your MAF curve to
actually get that mixture right.  I don't know how much different the A/F
ratio is for Nitrous-fuel versus air-fuel.  After tuning this route for
nitrous it may be a problem if you go WOT without nitrous.

Hope that helps.

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of bob limo
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 9:18 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ? refined

I originally posted: ">Do you guys know if the wide
open throttle on most
>production sports cars is at the maximum duty cycle
of
>the injectors, or do most manufacturers have some
head
>room in the injectors like 20% more room?"

The reason for the ? was that I was thinking about a
way to just turn on the injectors 100% at wide open
throttle and run a little nitrous oxide as close to
stoichimetric as possible.  Problems are: 1) some on
this list say duty cycles are at max in general and
some say they are not. If there is headroom then in
theory you haev more fuel capacity to prevent a lean
burn. 2) events are happening so fast that are all the
injectors really spraying all the time at WOT anyway?
Things aren't really that sequential so I don't think
it matters if I dump fuel for those short times 100%
thru all injectors? 3)Does wiring up injectors that
way cause any bad feedback to ECU?  It is a real
hassle to figure out how to nitrous a dry manifold,
with minimal effort,  never ment to flow a wet
mixture.  I may end up fining that the headroom left
in stock injectors is so little that Nitrous just does
not work well this way.

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From Tlsalt at aol.com  Fri Dec 13 20:59:54 2002
From: Tlsalt at aol.com (Tlsalt at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:59:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ? refined
Message-ID: 

 bob limo wrote, 

The reason for the ? was that I was thinking about a
way to just turn on the injectors 100% at wide open
throttle and run a little nitrous oxide as close to
stoichimetric as possible.  Problems are: 1) some on
this list say duty cycles are at max in general and
some say they are not. If there is headroom then in
theory you haev more fuel capacity to prevent a lean
burn. 2) events are happening so fast that are all the
injectors really spraying all the time at WOT anyway? 
Things aren't really that sequential so I don't think
it matters if I dump fuel for those short times 100%
thru all injectors? 3)Does wiring up injectors that
way cause any bad feedback to ECU?  It is a real
hassle to figure out how to nitrous a dry manifold,
with minimal effort,  never ment to flow a wet
mixture.  I may end up fining that the headroom left
in stock injectors is so little that Nitrous just does
not work well this way.

Hello Bob,

This is just a bad idea.  Injectors are not designed to run at 100% duty 
cycle (open all the time), they will eventually over heat and fail.  In any 
event, the head room you are talking about is 10-15% of rated hp, not much of 
a nitrous boost, and you want more excess fuel to cool the engine and reduce 
the chance of detonation with nitrous.  Some dry kits use regulated bottle 
pressure to boost the fuel pressure regulator, which is a safer way to go 
than shorting out the injectors. You can figure out how much fuel your stock 
injectors can supply by using the formula (SQR (NP/OP))*injector rating, with 
NP=new pressure and OP=old pressure.  Still you will be limited to a minor 
nitrous shot.  A wet system with port nozzles is the way to go with nitrous 
or consider the new injector mount nozzles.

Paul Saltwick

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From fj40brett at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 13 22:22:08 2002
From: fj40brett at yahoo.com (Brett Garland)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 19:22:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] newbie question
Message-ID: 


I should know this, but what is the type of prom for a
'7747 computer?  I cant find any markings that should
look familiar like 27c128 or something to that effect.
 I have one to program here and it has two legs that
were broken.  I plan on loading it with a bin from the
FTP site, but now I need a new prom.

Thanks!
-Brett

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From ohiobenz at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 13 23:32:05 2002
From: ohiobenz at yahoo.com (Ohio Benz)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:32:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] exhaust gas temps
Message-ID: 

Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max
power
From: Eric Byrd 
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

It seems to me, not knowing much about the specifics
of this topic, 
that
having extremely hot exhaust gases is a symptom of
inefficiency in your
cycle.  Heat = energy lost.

Plus, I have heard there is a relationship between
fuel mix and EGT,
reliable enough that you can use it to diagnose fuel
problems.  I have
heard the optimum EGT is 1500 F, and that 1800 F is
hot enough in the
exhaust to denote cylinder temperatures hot enough to
melt aluminum
pistons.


So... how hot could I expect the exhaust gasses from a
turbocharged engine to be???  Reason I as is because I
need to make a custom wastegate for our VW project and
the temp range is a big factor in material selection.
Thanks

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From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Dec 14 01:54:54 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 22:54:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] newbie question
Message-ID: 

2732
2732A
27C32

They're hard to find if you're pawing through junk piles.
Shannen

Brett Garland wrote:
> 
> I should know this, but what is the type of prom for a
> '7747 computer?  I cant find any markings that should
> look familiar like 27c128 or something to that effect.
>  I have one to program here and it has two legs that
> were broken.  I plan on loading it with a bin from the
> FTP site, but now I need a new prom.
> 
> Thanks!
> -Brett
> 
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From Sean.Richards at diageo.com  Sat Dec 14 02:31:06 2002
From: Sean.Richards at diageo.com (Richards, Sean)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:31:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction and turbo mod
Message-ID: 

tell me which cars have the digi 1application so that i can go find one.
also, is it that you  are saying that the digi 1 is a better system than the
digi 2

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From sfwilliams at comcast.net  Sat Dec 14 02:53:05 2002
From: sfwilliams at comcast.net (Scott F. Williams)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:53:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction and turbo mod
Message-ID: 

> tell me which cars have the digi 1 application so that i can go find one.
> also, is it that you  are saying that the digi 1 is a better
> system than the
> digi 2

Oh, that's easy. The only car to have that EMS was the Corrado G60. This
system is convenient for forced induction because it is MAP-based. It
calculates the amount of air at the throttlebody rather than actually
measuring it somewhere else. Maybe one of the engineers on the list will
expound one what is "better" or "worse". I'd say it is really a matter of
what is more or less appropriate.
--
Scott F. Williams
NJ Scirocco nut
'99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."



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From arnie_ at charter.net  Sat Dec 14 03:06:45 2002
From: arnie_ at charter.net (arnie)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:06:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

Bruce relinquished his membership some time ago.  Bruce had a way about him,
but ya have to hand it to him, he is very knowledgeable and showed it on
this list.  Heaven only knows how he would have responded to some of Eric's
posts.  :)

> but offering erroneous, sweeping generalizations as "advice" on this
> list should elicit some response.

Oh, it has.  :)

GAS


----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size


> Eric Byrd wrote,
>
> The SDS folks I just got done reading from their site say this about
> throttle bodies:  if the vacuum taken off the MAP sensor is higher at
> full throttle than at idle, your throttle body is too small.
>
> I found out some more info.  An engine needs 5.7 cc/min of fuel per hp.
>
>
> Hello Eric,
>
> Read that again......another impossibility.  MAP sensors read manifold
> pressure, vacuum in an NA engine.  Just what kind of engine could
> have higher vacuum at WOT than when the same engine is sucking
> against a closed throttle plate?  No chance. What they mean is if
> vacuum start climbing after reaching a minimum at WOT under load.
>
> The amount of fuel an engine needs is not 5.7cc/min per hp.  It varies
> for every engine and is the BSFC.  How much ?  Engines from the
> same manufacture can vary by as much as 18% (high comp Heron vs
> low compression Hemi) and there are no accurate sweeping
> generalizations about BSFC. In fact, most of these subjects are far more
> complicated than you suggest.
>
> I'd speculate that the main reason some Hondas are less detonation
> prone is not the bore size, it is the design of the combustion chamber at
> and near TDC. The difference in distance is very small on these little
> engines. There are plenty of small bore detonation prone designs.  Small
> bore engines with large, open combustion chambers (like Hemis), that
> need tall piston domes to have decent compression ratios, are very
> detonation sensitive. Their combustion chambers at TDC are long thin
> crescents.  Many Hondas have small, compact combustion chambers,
> with almost flat top pistons and are much less sensitive.
>
> I agree, speculation is not a crime, but offering erroneous, sweeping
> generalizations as "advice" on this list should elicit some response.
> What ever happened to Bruce ?   I'm sure he would have something to
> say about this subject........
>
> Paul



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From jpalazzi at hitech.com.br  Sat Dec 14 03:07:23 2002
From: jpalazzi at hitech.com.br (jpalazzi at hitech.com.br)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:07:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Jose Palazzi is out of the office.
Message-ID: 

I will be out of the office starting  13/12/2002 and will not return un=
til
06/01/2003.

Oi, a Hitech estar=E1 em f=E9rias coletivas dos dias 23 de Dezembro a 0=
3 de
Janeiro. Eu estarei fora ja hoje, retornando no dia 06 de Janeiro somen=
te,
com acesso limitado ao email.
Desejamos a todos boas festas e um 2003 repleto de realiza=E7=F5es.

Hi, I'll out of office until January 6th with limited access to the Ema=
il.
We wish you a great holiday season followed by a outstanding 2003.

Tks,
J.A.P.

=



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From brian at dessent.net  Sat Dec 14 03:22:14 2002
From: brian at dessent.net (Brian Dessent)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:22:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

arnie wrote:

> Bruce relinquished his membership some time ago.  Bruce had a way about him,
> but ya have to hand it to him, he is very knowledgeable and showed it on
> this list.  Heaven only knows how he would have responded to some of Eric's
> posts.  :)

I've got to say, I miss Bruce's quaint clock-set-for-three-years-ago
posts and "the little guys."   It's just not the same.  

Brian

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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Sat Dec 14 04:17:08 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 01:17:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 


--part1_198.1238071f.2b2c0a83_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 12/13/2002 10:13:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
arnie_ at charter.net writes:


> The SDS folks I just got done reading from their site say this about
> > throttle bodies:  if the vacuum taken off the MAP sensor is higher at
> > full throttle than at idle, your throttle body is too small
> 
>    yeah unless your running a winston cup event with a restrictor plate( 
> hear tell rumours the speedway engines are pulling 15hg at WOT anybody 
> verify this one ? ).a good way to size a throttle body is to figure out the 
> maximum VE at the given operating range in which you intened to run the 
> engine. 


  the once you determine engine operating range and max CFM then choose a TB 
based on this. remember to figure in for the camshft head etc etc etc. also 
as pointed out in previous mails an effcient fast flame propogating 
combustion chamber will make more power then a poor burning one even if 
everything else is the same. to many question and not enough answers. size 
the TB like a carberator look in the how to hot rod a small block chevy book 
for the answer as to how to determine the correct carberator size. there talk 
in CFM not mm's so figure out how much air and then find out what size TB 
then use accordingly. 

    

> 
>   


--part1_198.1238071f.2b2c0a83_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 12/13/2002 10:13:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, arnie_ at charter.net writes:






The SDS folks I just got done reading from their site say this about

> throttle bodies:  if the vacuum taken off the MAP sensor is higher at

> full throttle than at idle, your throttle body is too small



   yeah unless your running a winston cup event with a restrictor plate( hear tell rumours the speedway engines are pulling 15hg at WOT anybody verify this one ? ).a good way to size a throttle body is to figure out the maximum VE at the given operating range in which you intened to run the engine. 






  the once you determine engine operating range and max CFM then choose a TB based on this. remember to figure in for the camshft head etc etc etc. also as pointed out in previous mails an effcient fast flame propogating combustion chamber will make more power then a poor burning one even if everything else is the same. to many question and not enough answers. size the TB like a carberator look in the how to hot rod a small block chevy book for the answer as to how to determine the correct carberator size. there talk in CFM not mm's so figure out how much air and then find out what size TB then use accordingly. 



    






  





--part1_198.1238071f.2b2c0a83_boundary--

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From klox at juno.com  Sat Dec 14 10:17:32 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 07:17:32 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] exhaust gas temps
Message-ID: 

Actually, I read this from a site called, I think, homemadeturbo.com, a
site this fella developed to help new guys trying to turbocharge their
motors, and teach them what they need to know to avoid blowing up a
motor.  Even under boost, you can run a rich enough mix to keep EGT down
to 1500.  I would guess if you went much richer, there would be a danger
of fouling plugs.  I've also heard that AF gauges bounce around too much
to be of any use in precise tuning, but since EGT occurs after the fact,
it will give you a better "average" reading.  Oh, and, please forgive me
oh-so-humbly if any of this "advice" is not purely, perfectly, factually
correct.  Some of the guys on this forum think what they find here is
always utterly reliable, and they take great offense when they discover
errors, even errors that could have a perfectly natural explanation, not
realizing that they give this place a bad smell when they respond with
hostility.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:36:20 -0800 (PST) Ohio Benz 
writes:
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Combustion temperature for max
> power
> From: Eric Byrd 
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> It seems to me, not knowing much about the specifics
> of this topic, 
> that
> having extremely hot exhaust gases is a symptom of
> inefficiency in your
> cycle.  Heat = energy lost.
> 
> Plus, I have heard there is a relationship between
> fuel mix and EGT,
> reliable enough that you can use it to diagnose fuel
> problems.  I have
> heard the optimum EGT is 1500 F, and that 1800 F is
> hot enough in the
> exhaust to denote cylinder temperatures hot enough to
> melt aluminum
> pistons.
> 
> 
> So... how hot could I expect the exhaust gasses from a
> turbocharged engine to be???  Reason I as is because I
> need to make a custom wastegate for our VW project and
> the temp range is a big factor in material selection.
> Thanks
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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> 


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From klox at juno.com  Sat Dec 14 10:17:35 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 07:17:35 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

Excuse me, Paul,

But in my experience, erroneous sweeping generalizations offered as
advice occur so often, and from such presumably trustworthy and expert
posters as yourself, that only the correction is appropriate.  The
sarcasm, and the rebuke, are not necessary.  The fact that all the
experts put together in one room could not agree on any but the most
simple issues leads us to one conclusion:  this is a forum for
discussion, and discussion occurs, and any "advice" offered should be
accorded only conditional credibility by *any* reader until they can
corroborate it more reliably.  Hence the old cliche, "don't believe
everything you read."  I certainly don't, although I consider this forum
to be wonderfully informative.  I am, however, getting tired of running
into guys without a very healthy perspective, guys who don't yet realize
that hostility or self-righteousness is utterly pointless, worthless,
inappropriate on a forum of this kind.  I wish it could go without saying
that communication, especially written communication, is fraught with
dangers of misunderstanding.  I am tempted to say, "Grow up," but that
would be unnecessarily harsh.  I honestly don't want to insult you.  But
I wish you, and other guys here prone to hostility, would get the point
finally.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:44:39 EST Tlsalt at aol.com writes:
> Eric Byrd wrote,
> 
> The SDS folks I just got done reading from their site say this about
> throttle bodies:  if the vacuum taken off the MAP sensor is higher 
> at
> full throttle than at idle, your throttle body is too small.
> 
> I found out some more info.  An engine needs 5.7 cc/min of fuel per 
> hp. 
> 
> 
> Hello Eric,
> 
> Read that again......another impossibility.  MAP sensors read 
> manifold 
> pressure, vacuum in an NA engine.  Just what kind of engine could 
> have higher 
> vacuum at WOT than when the same engine is sucking against a closed 
> throttle 
> plate?  No chance. What they mean is if vacuum start climbing after 
> reaching 
> a minimum at WOT under load.
> 
> The amount of fuel an engine needs is not 5.7cc/min per hp.  It 
> varies for 
> every engine and is the BSFC.  How much ?  Engines from the same 
> manufacture 
> can vary by as much as 18% (high comp Heron vs low compression Hemi) 
> and 
> there are no accurate sweeping generalizations about BSFC. In fact, 
> most of 
> these subjects are far more complicated than you suggest.
> 
> I'd speculate that the main reason some Hondas are less detonation 
> prone is 
> not the bore size, it is the design of the combustion chamber at and 
> near 
> TDC. The difference in distance is very small on these little 
> engines. There 
> are plenty of small bore detonation prone designs.  Small bore 
> engines with 
> large, open combustion chambers (like Hemis), that need tall piston 
> domes to 
> have decent compression ratios, are very detonation sensitive. Their 
> 
> combustion chambers at TDC are long thin crescents.  Many Hondas 
> have small, 
> compact combustion chambers, with almost flat top pistons and are 
> much less 
> sensitive.
> 
> I agree, speculation is not a crime, but offering erroneous, 
> sweeping 
> generalizations as "advice" on this list should elicit some 
> response.  What 
> ever happened to Bruce ?   I'm sure he would have something to say 
> about this 
> subject........
> 
> Paul
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From klox at juno.com  Sat Dec 14 10:17:38 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 07:17:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

Do you people still not *get it*???

"Experts" in every conceivable discipline disagree more than they agree,
and regularly point out the "flaws" in their colleagues' pronouncements.

That is why your hostility and self-righteousness are utterly
hypocritical, and that is why I continue to be unimpressed with anyone's
self-appointed status as an expert.

Every veteran was once a rookie.  That is why any contribution by any
poster, regardless of their level of expertise, should be answered with
cordial collegiality, even if correcting an error for the benefit of the
other readers.

An immature response does not reflect on the receiver.  It reflects on
the responder.

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From Tlsalt at aol.com  Sat Dec 14 13:32:06 2002
From: Tlsalt at aol.com (Tlsalt at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:32:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

Eric Byrd wrote,

Do you people still not *get it*???

"Experts" in every conceivable discipline disagree more than they agree,
and regularly point out the "flaws" in their colleagues' pronouncements.

Every veteran was once a rookie.  That is why any contribution by any
poster, regardless of their level of expertise, should be answered with
cordial collegiality, even if correcting an error for the benefit of the
other readers.

Sorry Eric,

Apparently, you still don't get it.  Forget "experts", no one with even a 
basic understanding of the principles involved would disagree on these 
issues.  No one is attacking you personally and all of the responses to your 
posts have been very mild in context with the history of this list. For years 
this list has had a very effective B/S filter too keep garbage out of the 
archives.  This list has always had enough technical depth to expose 
unqualified statements that imply a complete lack of understanding of the 
basics involved.  Expect a sharp response if you make an unqualified 
statement equivalent to  " Pigs can fly".  If you want sugar coating go 
elsewhere. If you are tired of our "attitude", as a newcomers to the list I 
suggest you find another forum to "pose" on, rather than try to change an 
established list that has helped many "rookies" that are not posing as 
experts.

Paul

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From phil at injec.com  Sat Dec 14 15:35:06 2002
From: phil at injec.com (Phil Lamovie)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:35:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: errors that could have a perfectly natural explanation
Message-ID: 


Eric, i think the best way to avoid these barbs is to share
knowledge.

That which is "known" is quite different from

> I would guess if you went much richer, there would be a
> danger of fouling plugs.

> I've also heard that AF gauges bounce around too much
> to be of any use in precise tuning,

Some of the list members are professional ME's and EE's
and worse. These people tend to see facts as sacrosanct
and will always spit the dummy at loose talk.

When they reply to a question they will always check their
facts and physics before they post.

I have the Bosch "Blue Book" on my desk for just that very purpose.

There is no such thing as a stupid question but boy we have
seen some doozies in the answer department.

phil

"cogito ergo zoom"



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From diy-efi at t-n-e.com  Sat Dec 14 18:08:45 2002
From: diy-efi at t-n-e.com (Phil Hunter)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:08:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Newbie ? refined
Message-ID: 

Me thinks some of you are missing a very fundamental FI concept.
Duty Cycle is a gross oversimplification, easy to understand
w/o realizing you're missing the bigger picture.

Assume an engine running at 3000 RPM, injectors on continuously
(100% D.C.), AFR is 10:1. Now spin that motor up to 6K RPM,
D.C. is still 100% but what is the AFR? 20:1!!! Why? Same amount
of air per revolution (ignoring VE), but half the time per rev
and therefore half the fuel. Make sure you fully understand that
concept, especially if you bump up the rev limiter, which may
have nothing to do w/ mechanical limits and everything to do w/
avoiding top end lean out.

Let's look at things from a different angle, assume an engine
spinning 6K, 100% D.C., AFR is 12:1. Slow it down to 3K but
keep the AFR at 12:1, D.C. is now 50%, plenty of "headroom" for
nitrous at 3K but none at 6K.

HTHs,
philh
(digest)

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From Sean.Richards at diageo.com  Sat Dec 14 18:37:54 2002
From: Sean.Richards at diageo.com (Richards, Sean)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:37:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] vw jetta 8v modifiaction and turbo mod
Message-ID: 

i figured that it would be too much trouble to do what i want considering
that engine parts arre hard to find not to mention an engine in jamaica. 
i think perhaps i will try to buy one overseas and ship it in whole.
any one here knows where i can get a decent buy on a 16v 2.0l engine

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sat Dec 14 19:17:42 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:17:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie ? refined
Message-ID: 

The only problem I see with this is nitrous needs a fixed amount of fuel in
order to work correctly what you might need to do is add a fixed duty cycle to
the current one. It makes the same HP no matter what the rpm is.
Dave

bob limo wrote:
> 
> The reason for the ? was that I was thinking about a
> way to just turn on the injectors 100% at wide open
> throttle and run a little nitrous oxide as close to
> stoichimetric as possible.  Problems are: 1) some on
> this list say duty cycles are at max in general and
> some say they are not. If there is headroom then in
> theory you haev more fuel capacity to prevent a lean
> burn. 2) events are happening so fast that are all the
> injectors really spraying all the time at WOT anyway?


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From shurvinton at orange.net  Sat Dec 14 20:44:39 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:44:39 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] exhaust gas temps
Message-ID: 

I would be interested in some references to back this up. There are an awful
lot of people out there tuning to within a few 10ths AFR who would very
strongly disagree with you on that conjecture.

There is data on incoming that shows how accuracte and fast acting WB-02 is.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Byrd" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] exhaust gas temps


.  I've also heard that AF gauges bounce around too much
> to be of any use in precise tuning, but since EGT occurs after the fact,
> it will give you a better "average" reading.  Oh


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From Kojoian at aol.com  Sat Dec 14 20:47:29 2002
From: Kojoian at aol.com (Kojoian at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:47:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] 1984 t-bird eec problems
Message-ID: 


--part1_160.188901b1.2b2cf43b_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello list,
Havn't been here for 4 or 5 years.  Nice to be back again.
I recently bought a 1984 T-Bird.  3.8L v-6.  I'm having off idle drivability 
issues.
Under light power and even at idle, engine is stumbling.  I tapped into the 
EEC and 
monitored o2 voltages while driveing.  During stumbles voltages drop from 
from 
approx. .7 to .1 volts, quickly.  While tracing o2 signals thru EEC I noted 
that only the right bank actually goes anywhere.  The left bank signal 
arrives at J1 pin 29 passes thru a 22Meg resistor and dead-ends.  The right 
bank signal arrives at J1 pin 43 passes thru 22 Meg and ends at pin 2 on an 8 
pin DIP.
Is this normal?  Is it possible that the EEC is incorrect unit?  It obviously 
is NOT the original.  Has bone-yard (yellow paint) markings indicating 1984 
T-Bird.
  Identification on unit is:        EEC IV F1
  Under barcode:                       A52
then:                       E4VF-12A650-F24
in corner:                       SF
I couldn't find schematic for this unit thru web browsing.  

After getting car, I determined that the EGR was stuck and the vac solenoid 
to EGR had corroded contacts and wasn't actuating.  I corrected the problems. 
 Still got
error 31 after clearing codes and performing KOEO.  I changed EGR sensor and 
still get same.  Measuring resistance per book gives range of 3.5Kohms to 75 
ohms.
The 75 ohms is below spec. of 100.  Tried different (new) sensor with same 
readings.Is this normal?  Any thoughts? Also performing KOER, gives engine 
codes
of 13, 31, 33.  I performed diagnostics on EGR system according to book and 
arrived at EEC replacement solution.  I'm a bit low on cash, and would hate 
to purchase re-manufactured EEC if this is not the root cause.
Please help.
Regards,
Adam Kojoian
Corvallis, OR.

--part1_160.188901b1.2b2cf43b_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello list,

Havn't been here for 4 or 5 years.  Nice to be back again.

I recently bought a 1984 T-Bird.  3.8L v-6.  I'm having off idle drivability issues.

Under light power and even at idle, engine is stumbling.  I tapped into the EEC and 

monitored o2 voltages while driveing.  During stumbles voltages drop from from 

approx. .7 to .1 volts, quickly.  While tracing o2 signals thru EEC I noted that only the right bank actually goes anywhere.  The left bank signal arrives at J1 pin 29 passes thru a 22Meg resistor and dead-ends.  The right bank signal arrives at J1 pin 43 passes thru 22 Meg and ends at pin 2 on an 8 pin DIP.

Is this normal?  Is it possible that the EEC is incorrect unit?  It obviously is NOT the original.  Has bone-yard (yellow paint) markings indicating 1984 T-Bird.

  Identification on unit is:        EEC IV F1

  Under barcode:                       A52

then:                       E4VF-12A650-F24

in corner:                       SF

I couldn't find schematic for this unit thru web browsing.  



After getting car, I determined that the EGR was stuck and the vac solenoid to EGR had corroded contacts and wasn't actuating.  I corrected the problems.  Still got

error 31 after clearing codes and performing KOEO.  I changed EGR sensor and still get same.  Measuring resistance per book gives range of 3.5Kohms to 75 ohms.

The 75 ohms is below spec. of 100.  Tried different (new) sensor with same readings.Is this normal?  Any thoughts? Also performing KOER, gives engine codes

of 13, 31, 33.  I performed diagnostics on EGR system according to book and arrived at EEC replacement solution.  I'm a bit low on cash, and would hate to purchase re-manufactured EEC if this is not the root cause.

Please help.

Regards,

Adam Kojoian

Corvallis, OR.

--part1_160.188901b1.2b2cf43b_boundary--

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From hernt at mindspring.com  Sun Dec 15 02:33:59 2002
From: hernt at mindspring.com (Dave Harvey)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:33:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] An intro and some questions - how to smooth out the idle and where
Message-ID: 

Hi,
My name is Dave, I've been lurking on the 2 lists for a couple of months 
now. I'm new to the world of electronic fuel injection, although I have 
been doing electronics (professionally) and working on cars (fun?) for 
over 30 years. Just never got around to putting the 2 together. Call me 
a late bloomer. Anyway, now I've jumped in with both feet. I've replaced 
the 350 in my 91 GMC pickup with an HT-383 crate engine, added an 
Edelbrock Performer multipoint conversion and an Isky 257/265 hyd roller 
cam. Drives great, idle is a little lumpy. Vacuum at idle is 15-17 in Hg 
(in neutral). The intake duration is 210 deg @ 0.050, so I don't believe 
that the cam is the culprit. So now it comes time to consider 
reprogramming the EPROM in the 747. I have read out the stock EPROM and 
the (now installed) Edelbrock 1350 EPROM. The Edelbrock cam was designed 
for a 350 running the Edelbrock performer cam & heads. I have CATS 
Tuner. There are still a few things I need to check out before I change 
the EPROM, but I figure I should stock up on 2732s just in case. What is 
reliable source of 2732s, give that DigiKey does not carry them? What is 
the best method of correcting the idle stumble? I have checked:
- coolant temp sensor
- EGR valve
- ignition timing
O2 sensor, rotor, cap, wires and plugs are all new.
I have yet to check the O2 sensor output, my DVM is on the blink, need 
to borrow one from work. I have not ruled out vacuum leaks at the intake 
manifold gasket (but I pray that I don't have to replace the gasket). I 
have read and will continue to study the GM ECM tuning tips.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

-- Dave
94 Olds Bravada (bone stock, hers)
91 GMC Sierra 4x4 383/4L60 (ours)
89 Jaguar XJ-S V12 (mine)
81 Chevy K5 Blazer 350/4-speed stick (beater)
73 Jaguar XJ12 w/ Chevy conversion (engine & trans out for rework)
70 Harley Sportster 900cc (mine, too many mods to list)
Los Angeles, Ca.

PS. It appears that cross-posting is permitted. If not, I apologize in 
advance.



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From klox at juno.com  Sun Dec 15 09:06:15 2002
From: klox at juno.com (Eric Byrd)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 06:06:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: errors that could have a perfectly natural explanation
Message-ID: 

> Eric, i think the best way to avoid these barbs is to share
> knowledge.

Phil, I couldn't agree more.  In fact I'd say the whole purpose of this
forum is to share knowledge, not trade barbs.

> Some of the list members are professional ME's and EE's
> and worse.

Big, Fat, Hairy Deal.


> These people tend to see facts as sacrosanct
> and will always spit the dummy at loose talk.
> 
> When they reply to a question they will always check their
> facts and physics before they post.

Yeah, sure they do.  That's why they all agree so much.  For that matter,
that's why half of them write and spell as if they flunked out of English
as a Second Language.  I should really take such people ***much*** more
seriously.  After all, them being professional ME's and EE's does make
them superior as human beings.

I asked for something simple:  cordiality, and collegiality.  I don't
have to have my facts perfectly straight.  Very few of the guys here do. 
 That's why the simplest queries turn into long discussions, and I say
that's just fine.  That's the whole point, to have long discussions.

But I repeat:  the self-righteousness and the hostility are

H Y P O C R I T I C A L.


 I will meet you all on Judgment Day.  "Expect a sharp response."


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From jyeag at core.com  Sun Dec 15 13:51:42 2002
From: jyeag at core.com (Jim Yeagley)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:51:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

At the risk of sounding stupid or worse, what happened with Bruce?  I hope
his absence isn't health related.
Jim Yeagley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Dessent" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size


> arnie wrote:
>
> > Bruce relinquished his membership some time ago.  Bruce had a way about
him,
> > but ya have to hand it to him, he is very knowledgeable and showed it on
> > this list.  Heaven only knows how he would have responded to some of
Eric's
> > posts.  :)
>
> I've got to say, I miss Bruce's quaint clock-set-for-three-years-ago
> posts and "the little guys."   It's just not the same.  
>
> Brian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From phil at injec.com  Sun Dec 15 15:09:30 2002
From: phil at injec.com (Phil Lamovie)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:09:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Big, Fat, Hairy Deal
Message-ID: 


Well Eric,

I think a previous poster has already dealt with that type of response

please allow me to quote the esteemed list member.

> An immature response does not reflect on the receiver.
> It reflects on the responder.


Always happy to help,

phil







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From rawardsr at ameritech.net  Sun Dec 15 15:12:19 2002
From: rawardsr at ameritech.net (Robert A. Ward)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:12:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

Bruce and the little guys are just fine, working on several projects at
CSH headquarters.

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org] On
Behalf Of Jim Yeagley
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 08:58 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size

At the risk of sounding stupid or worse, what happened with Bruce?  I
hope
his absence isn't health related.
Jim Yeagley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Dessent" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size


> arnie wrote:
>
> > Bruce relinquished his membership some time ago.  Bruce had a way
about
him,
> > but ya have to hand it to him, he is very knowledgeable and showed
it on
> > this list.  Heaven only knows how he would have responded to some of
Eric's
> > posts.  :)
>
> I've got to say, I miss Bruce's quaint clock-set-for-three-years-ago
> posts and "the little guys."   It's just not the same.  
>
> Brian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From rawardsr at ameritech.net  Sun Dec 15 15:15:45 2002
From: rawardsr at ameritech.net (Robert A. Ward)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:15:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: errors that could have a perfectly natural explanation
Message-ID: 

As an uninvolved list member could you all stop this useless drivel
that's cluttering everyone's mailbox. Much appreciated and thanks, Bob W


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org] On
Behalf Of Eric Byrd
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 03:15 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: errors that could have a perfectly natural
explanation

> Eric, i think the best way to avoid these barbs is to share
> knowledge.

Phil, I couldn't agree more.  In fact I'd say the whole purpose of this
forum is to share knowledge, not trade barbs.

> Some of the list members are professional ME's and EE's
> and worse.

Big, Fat, Hairy Deal.


> These people tend to see facts as sacrosanct
> and will always spit the dummy at loose talk.
> 
> When they reply to a question they will always check their
> facts and physics before they post.

Yeah, sure they do.  That's why they all agree so much.  For that
matter,
that's why half of them write and spell as if they flunked out of
English
as a Second Language.  I should really take such people ***much*** more
seriously.  After all, them being professional ME's and EE's does make
them superior as human beings.

I asked for something simple:  cordiality, and collegiality.  I don't
have to have my facts perfectly straight.  Very few of the guys here do.

 That's why the simplest queries turn into long discussions, and I say
that's just fine.  That's the whole point, to have long discussions.

But I repeat:  the self-righteousness and the hostility are

H Y P O C R I T I C A L.


 I will meet you all on Judgment Day.  "Expect a sharp response."


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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Sun Dec 15 16:00:23 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:00:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

At 8:58 AM 12/15/02, Jim Yeagley wrote:

Bruce is fine , well, and making the black car ever quicker. He simply grew
tired of the attiitudes, not to mention Garfork.

Yep, Eric would be a decent example, of the vagueness, apparent
incompetence, and attitude all rolled up together that created the problem
for Bruce here !

H*ll, the doood (Eric) doesn't even appear to be AWARE of the DIFFERENCE
between a typical A/F meter and a WBO2, and that would have become pretty
obvious to him from just a SHORT cruise through the archives !!

He also seems to have more than a little chip on his shoulder with respect
to those who may have EARNED (just a bit!) more technical
education/experience than his own. Hardly the most effective way to get
those capable of sharing knowlege in a mood to do so, let alone when it's
for free !!

Sorry, Eric, "I have heard" just doesn't even come close to cutting it when
what you were blathering about incompetently  is spelled out in a LOT of
detail both in the archives AND in tuning 101 ~~!!

If anything ever did, Tuning 101 is WELL qualified as a "peer reviewed"
technical document !!

Greg
>
>
>> arnie wrote:
>>
>> > Bruce relinquished his membership some time ago.  Bruce had a way about
>him,
>> > but ya have to hand it to him, he is very knowledgeable and showed it on
>> > this list.  Heaven only knows how he would have responded to some of
>Eric's
>> > posts.  :)
>>
>> I've got to say, I miss Bruce's quaint clock-set-for-three-years-ago
>> posts and "the little guys."   It's just not the same.  
>>
>> Brian



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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Sun Dec 15 16:23:15 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:23:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Throttle body size
Message-ID: 

how did this thread get form TB sizing into a tour of the accomplishments of 
bruce. sorry to burst the bubble, if a response is off color i think it 
should be tossed.I dont care to think what bruce might have said about erics 
question. Its people that make response's like this that simply discourage 
people from joining in the hobby. take your attitudes and snivling elsewhere. 
if you dont want to answer a email dont. this trend just keeps popping up. 
over and over and over. its silly rediculous and demeaning to everyone here 
and does nothing to further DIY-EFI.org. please cease and desist all 
personally attacks via the mailing list. if you wish to make a personal 
attack do so in private email conversations the immaturuity and drivle is 
old. 

 

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From fatbillybob at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 15 16:33:15 2002
From: fatbillybob at yahoo.com (bob limo)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:33:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] re: Newbie? refined now a Nitrous ?
Message-ID: 

Thanks all who responed.  In general I'm trying to be
lazy with the Nitrous.  There is a huge differnece
between running an engine and all the parameters that
have to be correct VS. dumping extra nitrous and fuel
for 10 second blasts.  With Nitrous the key is to add
enough fuel so you don't have a lean burn.  I
understand how EFI dry manifolds can flow air evenly. 
The real question is can a dry maifold flow a wet
mixture well enough like old car car manifolds?  It is
way easier to inject extra fuel and nitrous in a dry
manifold than it is to do the extra fuel injector
stacking on OEM injectors.  Besides, I question 
whether the stacked injector method will harm the
delievery of the OEM injector for the other 99.9% of
daily driving.  I don't think that adding 8 things to
upset the flow stream is unobtrusive as one injector
further upstream.  There are methods as one poster
presented that increase fuel pressure that in thory
keeps the duty cycles the same.  This may be true or
is it?  Don't these modern systems sence with o2
sensors etc... some feedback and the ECU's will lower
the duty cycle because it knows there is more fuel
going in?  I think there is a way that OEM full engine
management systems like Motronics will sence the
relationship between injector time and fuel pressure
to keep the volume the same right?  I just don't know
enough about that.  So if dry manifolds can flow a wet
mixture well enough then the problem is easy to solve.
  

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From brian at dessent.net  Sun Dec 15 17:19:18 2002
From: brian at dessent.net (Brian Dessent)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:19:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] re: Newbie? refined now a Nitrous ?
Message-ID: 

bob limo wrote:

> sensors etc... some feedback and the ECU's will lower
> the duty cycle because it knows there is more fuel
> going in?  I think there is a way that OEM full engine
> management systems like Motronics will sence the
> relationship between injector time and fuel pressure
> to keep the volume the same right?  I just don't know

Closed loop feedback is only used for idle, cruise, and part-throttle
acceleration.  In other words, you will be in open loop for those times
when you enable the nitrous, and the ECU will have no idea what the
actual mixture is.  Think about it, hard acceleration requires an AFR
that's more rich than stoich -- probably in the 12 - 13.5 range -- and
the stock narrowband O2 sensors can only really tell you if you're close
to 14.7 or not.

Brian

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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Sun Dec 15 19:51:59 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:51:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] re: Newbie? refined now a Nitrous ?
Message-ID: 

Think about it, hard acceleration requires an AFR
>that's more rich than stoich -- probably in the 12 - 13.5 range -- and
>the stock narrowband O2 sensors can only really tell you if you're close
>to 14.7 or not.

There goes that "probably" word again. I sort of hope your "13.5" was a
TYPO !! PARTICULARLY for when the funny juice is flowing !!

 A range of 11.5 or even 11.0 to 12.5 would be a lot closer to not melting
pistons !! Start on the RICH end, and READ THE PLUGS--even IF you have a
WBO2. Or, be ready to pay the piper !

Greg
>
>Brian



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From jester at splorg.org  Sun Dec 15 19:59:31 2002
From: jester at splorg.org (James)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:59:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 


Hello everybody.

My name's James.  I'm a junior in EE.

I've joined an extracurricular vehicle team to have some fun in college.
I love cars and I love electronics, so it works out well.  :-)

The task at hand is to build a fuel injection system for a lawnmower
engine, single cylinder, probably L-head (possibly custom ohc head).

Most of y'all seem pretty friendly and knowledgeable, so I thought I'd
go out on a limb, admit I'm trying to become an engineer, and see whether
anyone with experience had any suggestions.

The curious can see what I've accomplished so far at
http://splorg.org/~jester/smv/  Sorry about the load times, I have slow
dsl.  And if you can't connect, the rain pro'lly knocked the power out
(again).

The only real purpose of the project is to get the best gas millage
possible.  We'd like to use EFI to get precise control over the
stoichiometry of the fuel mixture.

I've read that the most efficient ratio is 17:1.  Does anyone know whether
this number is applicable to all engines, and how much (quant or
qualitatively) economy you lose when you stray from this?

Also, I think we need a lean burn oxygen sensor to accomplish this...
anyone agree or disagree?  Any parts recommendations?

Cheers,

-james


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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Sun Dec 15 21:26:47 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:26:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 12:06 PM 12/15/02, James wrote:
>Hello everybody.
>
>My name's James.  I'm a junior in EE.
>
>I've joined an extracurricular vehicle team to have some fun in college.
>I love cars and I love electronics, so it works out well.  :-)
>
>The task at hand is to build a fuel injection system for a lawnmower
>engine, single cylinder, probably L-head (possibly custom ohc head).
>
>Most of y'all seem pretty friendly and knowledgeable, so I thought I'd
>go out on a limb, admit I'm trying to become an engineer, and see whether
>anyone with experience had any suggestions.

Tough to get great economy out of an L head engine because of the high
surface area of the chamber (through which heat can be conducted to the
head/block). But, STILL, probably better to stay with what you have than to
try to build a head from scratch !

First thing to do is use coatings--on ALL chamber surfaces: head, block,
valve heads, and piston crown. KEEP all possible heat IN the chamber !! You
might even look at using the "Bore Tech" treatment on the cylinder
bore--not only does this make the bore harder than a lady of the night's
heart, it helps to retain heat.

Also, check out the idea of using a teflon impregnated hard anodizing on
the piston skirt (to reduce friction). Nimet Industries, Gary, Indiana, is
one place to get such a coating applied.

Second is to make a cusom piston that comes as close as possible to the
head--and gives LOTS of squish area. By close, I mean you should hand fit
things so that the piston crown only misses the head by about .015" to
.020" !! (Assume you are NOT revving the engine particularly high.) Higher
compression gives higher efficiency, and well designed squish area gives
much more efficient, faster combustion. Don't lose sight of the fact that
faster combustion ALSO yields more efficiency in the cycle itself.

Playing with the shape of the piston crown OR the head over it--as in
making a couple of grooves that will cause the mixture to "JET" out of the
squish space in a manner that will cause it to form a couple of
counter-rotating vortices in the chamber space over the two valves.

If this engine has an updraft carby, STAY WITH THAT CONFIGURATION !! Aim
the injector right AT the area where the edge of the throttle butterfly is
as it begins to open--there is sonic flow there, which will help greatly in
atomizing the fuel. An exhaust hot spot in the intake manifold above the
butterfly is another VERY helpful thing. One could also aim the injector
directly AT such a hot spot.

Pre heating the fuel (like to 200 or 250 F) before it goes to the injecor
can be a great help. Takes some clever pipe routing to avoid getting vapor
to the injector, though.

Using an AIR SHROUDED injector--either from a BMW OR from a  Bosch CIS
system would also help GREATLY. Quite plausible to control the fuel
pressure to a CIS (consant flow) injector electronically, and thus keep
things REAL simple !!

Either way, you are gonna need a REALLY small injector , and likely pretty
low fuel pressure in order to get the fuel delivery low enough for such a
small engine. Atomization of the fuel is a SERIOUS problem at low fuel
pressures, so be ready to pay careful attention to it. A too big injector
with a short duty cycle is NOT a good way to get accurate control of the
fueling rate !!!

With LOTS of squish area, you might well be able to push the A/F ratio as
far as 17.5 or 18 to one.

Take a peek at the archives on efi-332 for info on "Breakdown Discharge
Ignition" (BDI). This has the potential to not only light a lean mixture
more effectively, but also to give you a MUCH quicker burn with less
ignition advance--and thus more efficiency.

Last of all--water injection CAN be used to improve efficiency !! (Shhhh!!!)

Greg (Sorry, but most of this is the ME side of what is needed !!)


>
>The curious can see what I've accomplished so far at
>http://splorg.org/~jester/smv/  Sorry about the load times, I have slow
>dsl.  And if you can't connect, the rain pro'lly knocked the power out
>(again).
>
>The only real purpose of the project is to get the best gas millage
>possible.  We'd like to use EFI to get precise control over the
>stoichiometry of the fuel mixture.
>
>I've read that the most efficient ratio is 17:1.  Does anyone know whether
>this number is applicable to all engines, and how much (quant or
>qualitatively) economy you lose when you stray from this?
>
>Also, I think we need a lean burn oxygen sensor to accomplish this...
>anyone agree or disagree?  Any parts recommendations?
>
>Cheers,
>
>-james
>
>
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>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Sun Dec 15 21:56:23 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:56:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

If this engine has an updraft carby, STAY WITH THAT CONFIGURATION !! Aim
the injector right AT the area where the edge of the throttle butterfly is
as it begins to open--there is sonic flow there, which will help greatly in
atomizing the fuel. An exhaust hot spot in the intake manifold above the
butterfly is another VERY helpful thing. One could also aim the injector
directly AT such a hot spot.

Thinking about this a bit more, I would be inclined to try to aim an
air-shrouded injector _DOWN_ at (the high velocity area of) an _UPDRAFT_
throttle butterfly.

This would make it relatively easy to vent (bypass) any vapor in the
preheated fuel out of the injector and the fuel rail, and would also give
_REALLY_ effective atomization of the fuel. Would certainly avoid having
any large, non-combustible droplets getting into the cylinder.

Greg



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From patc at opposition.tv  Sun Dec 15 22:23:09 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 19:23:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #408 - 13 msgs
Message-ID: 



Message: 11
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 08:38:51 -0800 (PST)
From: bob limo 
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] re: Newbie? refined now a Nitrous ?
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

Thanks all who responed.  In general I'm trying to be
lazy with the Nitrous.  There is a huge differnece
between running an engine and all the parameters that
have to be correct VS. dumping extra nitrous and fuel
for 10 second blasts.  With Nitrous the key is to add
enough fuel so you don't have a lean burn.  I
understand how EFI dry manifolds can flow air evenly.
The real question is can a dry maifold flow a wet
mixture well enough like old car car manifolds?  It is
way easier to inject extra fuel and nitrous in a dry
manifold than it is to do the extra fuel injector
stacking on OEM injectors.  Besides, I question
whether the stacked injector method will harm the
delievery of the OEM injector for the other 99.9% of
daily driving.  I don't think that adding 8 things to
upset the flow stream is unobtrusive as one injector
further upstream.  There are methods as one poster
presented that increase fuel pressure that in thory
keeps the duty cycles the same.  This may be true or
is it?  Don't these modern systems sence with o2
sensors etc... some feedback and the ECU's will lower
the duty cycle because it knows there is more fuel
going in?  I think there is a way that OEM full engine
management systems like Motronics will sence the
relationship between injector time and fuel pressure
to keep the volume the same right?  I just don't know
enough about that.  So if dry manifolds can flow a wet
mixture well enough then the problem is easy to solve.


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--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:26:18 -0800
From: Brian Dessent 
Organization: My own little world...
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] re: Newbie? refined now a Nitrous ?
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

bob limo wrote:

> sensors etc... some feedback and the ECU's will lower
> the duty cycle because it knows there is more fuel
> going in?  I think there is a way that OEM full engine
> management systems like Motronics will sence the
> relationship between injector time and fuel pressure
> to keep the volume the same right?  I just don't know

Closed loop feedback is only used for idle, cruise, and part-throttle
acceleration.  In other words, you will be in open loop for those times
when you enable the nitrous, and the ECU will have no idea what the
actual mixture is.  Think about it, hard acceleration requires an AFR
that's more rich than stoich -- probably in the 12 - 13.5 range -- and
the stock narrowband O2 sensors can only really tell you if you're close
to 14.7 or not.

Brian


Not quite true, Brian. While some systems act this way, most proper high end
systems monitor A/F ratio via a Lambda sensor right through the RPM range.
Bosch are especially fond of this idea as are most Motorsport systems as it
gives a rapid and accurate picture of mixture formation that the ECU can act
on.
Narrow band or two step lambda's are actually limited by how lean they can
read. Again, the Bosch production narrow bands have a range from 0.68 to
1.35 Lambda (about 10:1 to 20:1) whereas the wideband operate from 0.7 to
infinity. (ref; Bosch Motorsport catalogue)
Some engine management companies have an argument against closed loop
control as an ignition misfire can cause a lean out as the lambda sends an
over rich signal to the ECU which then counters by leaning out the mixture.
My answer to these people is they do not have a very sophisticated control
loop as the ones that work with closed loop use the lambda signal in a
filtered manner which prevents rogue data like this presenting a problem.
(e.g. Bosch Motronic EFI Technologies, MoTeC all have a filter algorithm for
the lambda signal).
Engine management systems use injector time as THE way of metering fuel flow
in relation to airflow. The fuel pressure is and should remain as constant
as possible. This relates more to the injector itself. Bosch injectors work
best at 55-60psi for instance. Not many injectors can work accurately above
70-75psi. About the only ones I have ever seen were TAG injectors which
could run at up to 120psi but the price tag was the size of the national
debt so we'll just ignore that idea and move on.
The use of fuel pressure regulators to up the fuel delivery is likewise not
quite right. Especially when the pressure starts to spike over 70psi. A word
of warning here, not all adjustable fuel pressure regs work! Especially when
you start trying to attain higher pressures. While some may seem to hold a
nice steady pressure in the workshop, the cheap ones while spike out in
cases where the throttle is shut off at moderate to high RPM, causing the
injectors to leak and an overrich condition on deceleration which effects
throttle response next time you get on the gas. The really cheap ones will
spike the pressure  at idle!! I have seen this condition before where the
pressure could fluctuate between 45 and 90psi while stationary in the
workshop. The problem is caused by the regulators inability to handle the
volume of fuel. If your engine is getting close to the flow rating of the
regulator then it won't be able to regulate properly as the flow overcomes
the size of the control valve in the regulator. Another note of caution,
just because it is a name brand doesn't mean it's right. For anyone
considering the purchase of an adjustable reg. There is, for instance, a
Bosch one which is sold by numerous "experts" which only flows 10L/HR!
As with most things, the real ones are rarely cheap although Aeromotive make
a great range of custom regs that aren't too pricey as does EFI Technology.
Bosch do have some great ones but the price will scare you. These conversion
kits you find that bolt on top of your existing one are not worth the cr**
they are made from.
N.B. Most of what I have written here either comes form the Bosch Automotive
handbook Ed.4, the Bosch Yellow Jacket on Petrol Fuel Injection or years of
hard won experience in tuning race and street engines with some of the most
complex engine management/data logging systems in the world. I thought I'd
put that in after reading errors that could have a perfectly natural
explanation posts. :)


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From shurvinton at orange.net  Sun Dec 15 23:09:16 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:09:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

Eep the atomisation spectre again. Having epoxied mounts in for the 2nd set
of injectors on my manifold I keep wondering if I should have fixed on an
upper set as well for experimentation. Nope, its a rotary, it'll never get
good gas mileage :-) Mind you with a tad of H20 I'm interested in finding
where the lean limit is.

Back to the original questions though. Swing over to www.diy-wb.org and
there you can find out how to build a wide-band 02. In a stationary app I
would hazard that EGT +NB + plug cuts might be close, but toy value is
excellent.

As for the actual EFI. If you are not after meeting any emissions regs you
can build very simple EFI. Have a search on how some of the old Bosch stuff
worked. K-jet was all analogue. You can implement a workable EFI system with
a 555 and a few op-amps if you approach it correctly. Especially if you only
have a limited number of operational states.

For reading on economy it is also worth having a read of anything you can
find on aviation engine control. As planes in level flight are effectively
at a single load point and there is very little qualified in terms of EFi
the pilots manually lean the mixtures to get best BSFC, which is not
something you can easily do with a car. If I understand it correctly you
want to open the throttle whilst leaning the mixture until you reach the
lean limit or WOT.  I would be willing to wager that some of the fly by wire
throttles do open up on cruise to reduce pumping losses? Love to know how
they recover from that when you mash the throttle.

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Hermann" 

> If this engine has an updraft carby, STAY WITH THAT CONFIGURATION !! Aim
> the injector right AT the area where the edge of the throttle butterfly is
> as it begins to open--there is sonic flow there, which will help greatly
in
> atomizing the fuel. An exhaust hot spot in the intake manifold above the
> butterfly is another VERY helpful thing. One could also aim the injector
> directly AT such a hot spot.
>
> Pre heating the fuel (like to 200 or 250 F) before it goes to the injecor
> can be a great help. Takes some clever pipe routing to avoid getting vapor
> to the injector, though.
>
> Using an AIR SHROUDED injector--either from a BMW OR from a  Bosch CIS
> system would also help GREATLY. Quite plausible to control the fuel
> pressure to a CIS (consant flow) injector electronically, and thus keep
> things REAL simple !!
> Last of all--water injection CAN be used to improve efficiency !!
(Shhhh!!!)
>



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From jester at splorg.org  Mon Dec 16 00:01:00 2002
From: jester at splorg.org (James)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:01:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, William Shurvinton wrote:

> As for the actual EFI. If you are not after meeting any emissions regs
> you can build very simple EFI. Have a search on how some of the old
> Bosch stuff worked. K-jet was all analogue. You can implement a
> workable EFI system with a 555 and a few op-amps if you approach it
> correctly. Especially if you only have a limited number of operational
> states.

Ya, there's no emissions stuff.  We run with a straight pipe and no
catalytic conv.

The plan right now is to use a microcontroller board (based on Siemens
167CR) to do everything - where "everything" is a/d converstion of the EGO
and injector actuation.

An all analog system is certainly intriguing.  I think it'll be easier to
develop the system with a programable board, but if we get everything
working before the competition, I'll start looking into a simpler system.

> For reading on economy it is also worth having a read of anything you can
> find on aviation engine control. As planes in level flight are effectively
> at a single load point and there is very little qualified in terms of EFi
> the pilots manually lean the mixtures to get best BSFC, which is not
> something you can easily do with a car. If I understand it correctly you
> want to open the throttle whilst leaning the mixture until you reach the
> lean limit or WOT.

Oo, that's a good suggestion for research.  I think it's applicable... in
the competition, we open the throttle, get the car to x mph, then kill the
engine and coast to y mpg, then start the engine and run up to x ... etc.

What're BSFC and WOT?

-j



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From shurvinton at orange.net  Mon Dec 16 00:32:53 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:32:53 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

Have a peek at www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html if  you want to run with
micro control. It's what I run. Not as flexible as some OEM stuff, but huge
amounts of spare code space.

WOT= Wide open throttle
BSFC= brake specific fuel consumption

You want to find the operating point of your engine where BSFC is the
lowest. This 'may' not be the lean limit of operation. Or another way,
ideally you would be able to work out exactly how much torque and RPM range
you need to accelerate between x &Y and then optimise the engine to be most
economical producing that torque with the throttle wide open. Makes more
sense if you look at the standard curves in a text book that plot power and
BSFC against AFR. You suddenly realise that catalytic converters may not be
such a great thing after all :-)

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "James" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy


>
> The plan right now is to use a microcontroller board (based on Siemens
> 167CR) to do everything - where "everything" is a/d converstion of the EGO
> and injector actuation.
>
> An all analog system is certainly intriguing.  I think it'll be easier to
> develop the system with a programable board, but if we get everything
> working before the competition, I'll start looking into a simpler system.
>
> Oo, that's a good suggestion for research.  I think it's applicable... in
> the competition, we open the throttle, get the car to x mph, then kill the
> engine and coast to y mpg, then start the engine and run up to x ... etc.
>
> What're BSFC and WOT?
>



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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 00:52:31 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:52:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 4:02 PM 12/15/02, James wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, William Shurvinton wrote:
>
>> As for the actual EFI. If you are not after meeting any emissions regs
>> you can build very simple EFI. Have a search on how some of the old
>> Bosch stuff worked. K-jet was all analogue. You can implement a
>> workable EFI system with a 555 and a few op-amps if you approach it
>> correctly. Especially if you only have a limited number of operational
>> states.
>
>Ya, there's no emissions stuff.  We run with a straight pipe and no
>catalytic conv.
>
>The plan right now is to use a microcontroller board (based on Siemens
>167CR) to do everything - where "everything" is a/d converstion of the EGO
>and injector actuation.
>
>An all analog system is certainly intriguing.  I think it'll be easier to
>develop the system with a programable board, but if we get everything
>working before the competition, I'll start looking into a simpler system.

You are going to have a _difficult_ time finding a small enough injector to
run digital !!

How big (displacement) is this one lung engine ?? How many rpm do you plan
to turn it ??
>
>> For reading on economy it is also worth having a read of anything you can
>> find on aviation engine control. As planes in level flight are effectively
>> at a single load point and there is very little qualified in terms of EFi
>> the pilots manually lean the mixtures to get best BSFC, which is not
>> something you can easily do with a car. If I understand it correctly you
>> want to open the throttle whilst leaning the mixture until you reach the
>> lean limit or WOT.
>
>Oo, that's a good suggestion for research.  I think it's applicable... in
>the competition, we open the throttle, get the car to x mph, then kill the
>engine and coast to y mpg, then start the engine and run up to x ... etc.

This is one way to minimize throttling losses ! :-)

Better known in some circles as "Georgia Overdrive" or "Jewish Overdrive" !! :-)
>
>What're BSFC and WOT?

BSFC = Brake Specific Fuel Consumption--the thing you are trying to minimize.

WOT = Wide Open Throttle.



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From shannen at grolen.com  Mon Dec 16 00:56:32 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:56:32 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 


William Shurvinton wrote:
> 
  Makes more
> sense if you look at the standard curves in a text book that plot power and
> BSFC against AFR. You suddenly realise that catalytic converters may not be
> such a great thing after all :-)
> 
> Bill
Suddenly?

Confirms, maybe?
Shannen

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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 01:12:31 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:12:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 6:36 PM 12/15/02, William Shurvinton wrote:
>Have a peek at www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html if  you want to run with
>micro control. It's what I run. Not as flexible as some OEM stuff, but huge
>amounts of spare code space.
>
>WOT= Wide open throttle
>BSFC= brake specific fuel consumption
>
>You want to find the operating point of your engine where BSFC is the
>lowest. This 'may' not be the lean limit of operation. Or another way,
>ideally you would be able to work out exactly how much torque and RPM range
>you need to accelerate between x &Y and then optimise the engine to be most
>economical producing that torque with the throttle wide open. Makes more
>sense if you look at the standard curves in a text book that plot power and
>BSFC against AFR. You suddenly realise that catalytic converters may not be
>such a great thing after all :-)

"Internal Combustion Engines and Air Pollution" by Edward F. Obert has some
EXCELLENT info on all such stuff. If your school library doesn't have a
copy or three of this book, somebody ought to be "spanked" !!

Obert also includes some fascinating information on a wide variety of
fuels. WHO is providing the fuel for this little contest ?? Do you have a
CHOICE with regard to fuel to be used ??  :-)

Greg
>
>Bill
>
>----- Original Message -----
From: "James" 
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:02 AM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
>
>
>>
>> The plan right now is to use a microcontroller board (based on Siemens
>> 167CR) to do everything - where "everything" is a/d converstion of the EGO
>> and injector actuation.
>>
>> An all analog system is certainly intriguing.  I think it'll be easier to
>> develop the system with a programable board, but if we get everything
>> working before the competition, I'll start looking into a simpler system.
>>
>> Oo, that's a good suggestion for research.  I think it's applicable... in
>> the competition, we open the throttle, get the car to x mph, then kill the
>> engine and coast to y mpg, then start the engine and run up to x ... etc.
>>
>> What're BSFC and WOT?
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



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From pedward at apsoft.com  Mon Dec 16 01:15:05 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:15:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

> 
> Ya, there's no emissions stuff.  We run with a straight pipe and no
> catalytic conv.

You ought to consider a couple of things.  OEMs get better mileage by
recycling the exhaust gases (EGR).  The EGR allows you to reduce your
fuel load and run leaner.
> 
> An all analog system is certainly intriguing.  I think it'll be easier to
> develop the system with a programable board, but if we get everything
> working before the competition, I'll start looking into a simpler system.

Using an analog system is of little benefit if you've achieved EFI.  The whole
point of EFI is that you can do things analog can't.  Just because most
aftermarket or homebrew systems don't implement trick algorithms or strategies
doesn't mean you have to forget them.

If you don't already have an EFI expert (or Internal Combustion Engine expert)
on the team, then you would do well to find one.

> Oo, that's a good suggestion for research.  I think it's applicable... in
> the competition, we open the throttle, get the car to x mph, then kill the
> engine and coast to y mpg, then start the engine and run up to x ... etc.

The Coast and Burn technique is oft used for ICE competitions.  If I were to
want to use as little fuel as possible, I'd work on these things:

A powerful electric motor for the major acceleration.  This is almost free if
you have a large battery and an alternator that can recharge the energy released
in the burn.  You could run an engine at a static load once accelerated up by
the electric motor to recharge the battery, or you could put a very high gear
ratio (numerically low) between the motor and the drive.  This would highly benefit
torquey motors and allow a long sustained accelleration run.  You would gain RPM
very slowly but it would give you time to recharge the battery as well as reach
speed.

I don't know if your competition has specific fuels mandated, but if you search
the net you'll find a list of fuels and their specific energy densities.  Usually
these are rated in BTU per a unit of measurement (pound, liter, gallon, etc).

You may want to consider a fuel with a higher energy density, assuming that you
have an engine that can efficiently release that energy.

If you are using conventional piston engines there are plenty of tricks to reduce
the friction in them.  Ironically most of them are counter to new-engine building.

To reduce friction you setup your clearances fairly wide (main and rod bearing
clearances, piston wall clearances, low viscosity oils).  The one place where you
may be tempted to play with clearances is piston rings, but I'd recommend against
it, as this will reduce your efficiency.  I'd actually recommend gapless rings
to help retain as much combustion pressure as possible.

A little piece of advice on engines:  the longer the stroke, generally the more
torque they make for a specific displacement.

Large bore engines are good for high airflow requirements and horsepower.  I'd
recommend against achieving high horsepower and go for high torque.  Torque is
directly related to cylinder pressures and engine efficiency.  HP is a measure
of airflow essentially.

An engine that makes lots of torque at very low RPMs is preferrable as you will
use less fuel at lower RPMs than higher RPMs, since your airflow is less (in NA
engines).

Also, you didn't specify if the competition disallows enhancers or modifiers to
the engine's intake of fuel/air.

Modifying the fuel or air by use of Nitrous Oxide or NitroMethane can significantly
improve your efficiency.  Nitrous Oxide is 2 parts nitrogen and 1 part Oxygen, when
it's burned 2 molecules of N2O combine to make 2 N2 and 1 O2, increasing the pressure
in the cylinder and introducing a 50% oxygen volume (air is 21% oxygen).  N2O makes
for very high cylinder pressures and is a great way to improve torque output and
reduce total fuel requirements.

Nitromethane has similar advantages as N20, but others too.  Nitromethane is 50%
oxygen, so it has similar performance characteristics to N20.  The most common
fuel combined with Nitromethane is methanol.  This has the effect of lower the
octane of the methanol and also reducing combustion chamber temperatures because
of the primary ingredient is methanol.

I don't know how Nitromethane reacts with other fuels or how it reacts with N2O,
but both of these modifiers require specially prepared engines to fully take
advantage of the performance of these modifiers.

N2O generally requires less preparation than Nitromethane, but an engine that is
designed to run with Nitromethane will most definitely work well with N2O.

Another modifier used on Diesel engines is to inject propane into the intake air
stream.  This has the effect of greatly improving the combustion efficiency and
torque.  There are many commercial kits for light duty trucks.

> 
> What're BSFC and WOT?

Brake Specific Fuel Consumption and Wide Open Throttle.

BSFC is the ratio of fuel per HP of engine output.  Values range from .3 to .9 in
most applications you will encounter.

Values and applications examples:

lb per HP	Application
.3		Aviation ICE (static loads for long periods)
.45-.5		NA ICE (Naturally aspirated)
.6		Forced induction (turbo, supercharger) ICE
.7-.8		Wankel (rotary) engines IIRC
.9		2-stroke ICE engines

I don't have any BSFC numbers for Diesel or Turbine engines.  Turbines are higher
and Diesels are lower, both inherent to design and fuel.  Turbines run on a Kerosene
like fuel, thinner then Diesel but similar properties.

> 
> -j
> 

--Perry

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.
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From jester at splorg.org  Mon Dec 16 01:30:29 2002
From: jester at splorg.org (James)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:30:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Perry Harrington wrote:

> If you don't already have an EFI expert (or Internal Combustion Engine expert)
> on the team, then you would do well to find one.

Or become one.  :-)

> I don't know if your competition has specific fuels mandated, but if you search

Yes, all teams use the same fuel.  100 octane.

> it, as this will reduce your efficiency.  I'd actually recommend gapless rings
> to help retain as much combustion pressure as possible.

We use gapless in the race.

> Also, you didn't specify if the competition disallows enhancers or modifiers to
> the engine's intake of fuel/air.

We aren't really willing to go in this direction yet.

The main goal is to take a ucontroller, an EGO sensor, an injector, and a
pump, and get them to work.  There are important design decisions to be
make in terms of software algorithms, injector placement, EGO type, etc,
and that's about all we'll have time for.

Heated fuel lines and the like are an interesting idea, and one I hadn't
yet encountered, but are too complicated at this stage, I think.  The most
important thing is that it _works_, reliably, at the competition.  We'd
rather build a well designed, simple system than an overly complex one.

Next year... well, that's another matter.  :-)

To give you an idea of the platform, see

http://smv.berkeley.edu/SMV_2002/31.html

It's somewhat crude (at least to someone who grew up with a full-size
dodge pickup ;-), but most of all cramped.  Our success has come from the
chassis and the shell being aerodynamic, but the tradeoff is that there
isn't much real estate available.  And only short people get to drive it.
:-)

-james


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From jester at splorg.org  Mon Dec 16 01:36:17 2002
From: jester at splorg.org (James)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:36:17 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Greg Hermann wrote:

> You are going to have a _difficult_ time finding a small enough injector to
> run digital !!

We have one, I am told.

> How big (displacement) is this one lung engine ?? How many rpm do you plan
> to turn it ??

Believe it or not, I haven't been able to find the displacement yet.  And
yes, that annoys me.

It's a 3.5 hp briggs and stratton lawnmower engine.  RPM will vary with
clutch engagment point and final gearing, but it's probably in the
neighborhood of 3-4k, maybe 5k but probably not.

-j


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From pedward at apsoft.com  Mon Dec 16 01:48:06 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:48:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

> Heated fuel lines and the like are an interesting idea, and one I hadn't
> yet encountered, but are too complicated at this stage, I think.  The most
> important thing is that it _works_, reliably, at the competition.  We'd
> rather build a well designed, simple system than an overly complex one.

You could heat the fuel by wrapping tubing around the cylinder, creating a
cooling effect for the engine and preheating your fuel.

> 
> Next year... well, that's another matter.  :-)
> 
> To give you an idea of the platform, see
> 
> http://smv.berkeley.edu/SMV_2002/31.html

Hmm, so are non-Berkeley students allowed to help with the design and fabrication?

> 
> It's somewhat crude (at least to someone who grew up with a full-size
> dodge pickup ;-), but most of all cramped.  Our success has come from the
> chassis and the shell being aerodynamic, but the tradeoff is that there
> isn't much real estate available.  And only short people get to drive it.
> :-)

I'd say the B&S is rather crude when you are considering low fuel consumption.
We're talking about 250cc motors making 5HP with a F-Head design.  I'd expect
a weedeater or chainsaw engine would be a better approach.

> 
> -james
> 

--Perry

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
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From jester at splorg.org  Mon Dec 16 02:02:03 2002
From: jester at splorg.org (James)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:02:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Perry Harrington wrote:

> Hmm, so are non-Berkeley students allowed to help with the design and fabrication?

I don't think so.  The credit goes to the school, and they seem pretty
strict about it.  Heck, you even have to be an SAE member to attend the
race with your school.

> I'd say the B&S is rather crude when you are considering low fuel consumption.
> We're talking about 250cc motors making 5HP with a F-Head design.  I'd expect
> a weedeater or chainsaw engine would be a better approach.

Well, the point of the competition is to do the best with what we got.
Everyone uses the same engine, so it is (in some respects) really a test
of engineering.  And funding, of course.

-j


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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 04:07:23 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 01:07:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 5:39 PM 12/15/02, James wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Greg Hermann wrote:
>
>> You are going to have a _difficult_ time finding a small enough injector to
>> run digital !!
>
>We have one, I am told.
>
>> How big (displacement) is this one lung engine ?? How many rpm do you plan
>> to turn it ??
>
>Believe it or not, I haven't been able to find the displacement yet.  And
>yes, that annoys me.
>
>It's a 3.5 hp briggs and stratton lawnmower engine.  RPM will vary with
>clutch engagment point and final gearing, but it's probably in the
>neighborhood of 3-4k, maybe 5k but probably not.

OK--A 3.5 HP engine. Say _MAYBE_ you hop it up/improve its efficiency to
where it's good for 6 HP. This will require about a 3 lb/hr. of fuel. Or,
at, say, a 60% duty cycle at full power, a 5 lb/hr. injector. Smallest
injector _I_ know of is a 13.5 lb/hr one, made by Bosch. Check the archives
here, there have been a number of times folks have been looking for little
injectors.

Either somebody has found something a LOT smaller than anybody here has
been able to find, or they are blowing smoke, or they think they are going
to get decent fuel metering accuracy (not to mention reasonably decent idle
performance) with a short injector duty cycle--which simply is NOT true !!

Greg





>
>-j
>
>
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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 04:35:09 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 01:35:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 5:34 PM 12/15/02, James wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Perry Harrington wrote:
>
>> If you don't already have an EFI expert (or Internal Combustion Engine
>>expert)
>> on the team, then you would do well to find one.
>
>Or become one.  :-)
>
>> I don't know if your competition has specific fuels mandated, but if you
>>search
>
>Yes, all teams use the same fuel.  100 octane.
>
>> it, as this will reduce your efficiency.  I'd actually recommend gapless
>>rings
>> to help retain as much combustion pressure as possible.
>
>We use gapless in the race.
>
>> Also, you didn't specify if the competition disallows enhancers or
>>modifiers to
>> the engine's intake of fuel/air.
>
>We aren't really willing to go in this direction yet.
>
>The main goal is to take a ucontroller, an EGO sensor, an injector, and a
>pump, and get them to work.  There are important design decisions to be
>make in terms of software algorithms, injector placement, EGO type, etc,
>and that's about all we'll have time for.
>
>Heated fuel lines and the like are an interesting idea, and one I hadn't
>yet encountered, but are too complicated at this stage, I think.  The most
>important thing is that it _works_, reliably, at the competition.  We'd
>rather build a well designed, simple system than an overly complex one.
>
>Next year... well, that's another matter.  :-)
>
>To give you an idea of the platform, see
>
>http://smv.berkeley.edu/SMV_2002/31.html
>
>It's somewhat crude (at least to someone who grew up with a full-size
>dodge pickup ;-), but most of all cramped.  Our success has come from the
>chassis and the shell being aerodynamic, but the tradeoff is that there
>isn't much real estate available.  And only short people get to drive it.

If the design of the chassis/drive line is open, there's a whole 'nother
world of how to WIN hiding there !!

Greg
>:-)
>
>-james
>
>
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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 04:46:22 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 01:46:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 6:19 PM 12/15/02, Perry Harrington wrote:
>>
>> Ya, there's no emissions stuff.  We run with a straight pipe and no
>> catalytic conv.
>
>You ought to consider a couple of things.  OEMs get better mileage by
>recycling the exhaust gases (EGR).  The EGR allows you to reduce your
>fuel load and run leaner.

What the EGR really does is reduce the pumping losses at cruise due to
throttling.
>>
>
>> Oo, that's a good suggestion for research.  I think it's applicable... in
>> the competition, we open the throttle, get the car to x mph, then kill the
>> engine and coast to y mpg, then start the engine and run up to x ... etc.

Note that the Georgia overdrive approach makes the throttling losses disappear.
>

Greg



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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 06:03:15 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 03:03:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Dec 15, 2002 at 09:08:38PM -0600, Greg Hermann wrote:
> At 5:39 PM 12/15/02, James wrote:
> >On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Greg Hermann wrote:

> >> You are going to have a _difficult_ time finding a small enough
> >> injector to run digital !!

> >We have one, I am told.

> >It's a 3.5 hp briggs and stratton lawnmower engine.  RPM will vary with
> >clutch engagment point and final gearing, but it's probably in the
> >neighborhood of 3-4k, maybe 5k but probably not.

Typ. 9.02 cu. in. capacity - Bore 2.56 in.  Stroke 1.75 in.
(148cc)

> OK--A 3.5 HP engine. Say _MAYBE_ you hop it up/improve its
> efficiency to where it's good for 6 HP. This will require about a

Might be able to get 10 hp or more; depends a lot on how
mechanically- and thermally- stressed the engine is in stock
config...

> 3 lb/hr. of fuel. Or, at, say, a 60% duty cycle at full power, a 5
> lb/hr. injector. Smallest injector _I_ know of is a 13.5 lb/hr
> one, made by Bosch. Check the archives here, there have been a
> number of times folks have been looking for little injectors.

There's 0-280-150-207 delivering 10.3 lb/hr (108.3 cc/min)
according to http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

Getting a bit closer - up to about 35% maximum duty cycle at rated
pressure. Information on motorcycle (moped!) injectors isn't easy to
find...

Delivery is at rated pressure. One could reduce fuel pressure and
decrease fuel density by heating - measure the fuel temperature and
pressure at delivery to get an idea of the real fuel flow rate.
Use a small fuel reservoir in which you regulate temperature by
regulating the flow of waste heat from the engine or cooling air to
the reservoir.

HOT FUEL IS DANGEROUS. Be very careful. Do NOT try to exceed 70
degrees C at preheat unless the system is pressure tight.

Increase the load at "idle" by turning an alternator to charge a
battery. Kill the engine when the battery is nearly full and use the
battery power to boost acceleration from start. 

Budget permitting; get some EE folks to make you a starter-generator
flywheel. Use super-caps to smooth out the idle; absorbing power on
the power peak and throwing more in during compression.

42V electrics should earn bonus points with SAE. :-)

-- 
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From pedward at apsoft.com  Mon Dec 16 06:41:55 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 03:41:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

> What the EGR really does is reduce the pumping losses at cruise due to
> throttling.

It's simpler than that.  The exhaust gases already have fuel in them to
some degree.  You recycle that in place of actual fuel.  The only way to eliminate
throttle losses is to have no throttle at all.  You then do the throttling via
modulation of the valve timing.

The other way is to do direct injection like diesels.

> 
> Note that the Georgia overdrive approach makes the throttling losses disappear.

That approach is more gas hungry.  If you treat the motor as entirely binary
with respect to throttle/running (which I interpret your description to mean),
you incurr a hit at the beginning of each acceleration.  You could get around
this by stopping the engine at BDC on the intake stroke (valve closed) and
resume on that charge (assuming it is enough to avoid enrichment).

A more prudent design would be to add a compression release so that you can use
the vehicle inertia to start and stop the engine without any initial enrichment.

This is where a heavy flywheel would be nice.

What you want is an engine configuration that requires no enrichment (use EGR
for enrichment) and has a flat torque curve.  You can cam the little motor to
peak torque really early, but a fully variable cam timing would be the best.

They replaced the head of the engine, so in theory they could convert it
into a valved 2-stroke and make up some of the difference.  That would reduce
pumping losses and inertial losses.

In all, there are a zillion different ideas that could be tried, but in the end
it's limited by time, budget, and expertise.

--Perry

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.
                             -- Benjamin Franklin

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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Mon Dec 16 09:27:01 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:27:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

Never underestimate what you can do with analogue electronics in these =
applications.=20

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Perry Harrington [mailto:pedward at apsoft.com]

Using an analog system is of little benefit if you've achieved EFI.  The =
whole
point of EFI is that you can do things analog can't.  Just because most
aftermarket or homebrew systems don't implement trick algorithms or =
strategies
doesn't mean you have to forget them.


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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Mon Dec 16 09:31:20 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:31:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

I'm a little slow sometimes :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Shannen Durphey [mailto:shannen at grolen.com]


William Shurvinton wrote:
>=20
  Makes more
> sense if you look at the standard curves in a text book that plot =
power and
> BSFC against AFR. You suddenly realise that catalytic converters may =
not be
> such a great thing after all :-)
>=20
> Bill
Suddenly?

Confirms, maybe?
Shannen
_efi

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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Mon Dec 16 09:52:32 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:52:32 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

pedward at apsoft.com wrote:
> 
> > What the EGR really does is reduce the pumping losses at cruise due to
> > throttling.
> 
> It's simpler than that.  The exhaust gases already have fuel in them to
> some degree.  You recycle that in place of actual fuel.  The only way to eliminate
> throttle losses is to have no throttle at all.  You then do the throttling via
> modulation of the valve timing.

Could you explain why there are no pumping losses with variable valve
timing or clearance ?
I see variable valves exactly like throttles, the piston still has to
pump the vacuum to reach the BDC. The energy loss is still here.

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Mon Dec 16 10:47:48 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 07:47:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

That seems like a pretty high octane for such a low compression engine. It would
make you think there might be a lot of gains in raising the compression to match
the mandated fuel. years ago a friend of mine raced 1/4 midgets (single cylinder
flathead) and he made the most power on pump gas that was way less than 100
octane. There was a lot of work done on the piston shape as well and the window
over the valves that actually does all the flow work. Made big differences in
power and torque playing with that. I will give him a call if you any interest
in to looking at that or the time to do it. With the CR167 if you have not
talked to the folks at Rigel you need to they have worked with me on a project
or two and were very helpful in more ways than I can count.
Dave

James wrote:
> 

> 
> > I don't know if your competition has specific fuels mandated, but if you search
> 
> Yes, all teams use the same fuel.  100 octane.


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Mon Dec 16 10:53:47 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 07:53:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

I looked at your pic of the car on the net.. You have a centrifugal clutch.
What rpm does it lock up and how does that relate to peak torque and the rpm for
max mileage?? Is it adjustable with springs or weights or can it be made to
completely lock up so you can pull the engine down to a low rpm once you are
moving? seems like there is no sense buzzing along at 3 or 4k rpm when you are
trying to save fuel..
Dave


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From mos at sydney.net  Mon Dec 16 13:50:18 2002
From: mos at sydney.net (Mos)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:50:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Alexei Pavlov wrote:

> pedward at apsoft.com wrote:
> > The only way to eliminate throttle losses is to have no throttle at
> > all.  You then do the throttling via modulation of the valve timing.
>
> Could you explain why there are no pumping losses with variable valve
> timing or clearance ?
> I see variable valves exactly like throttles, the piston still has to
> pump the vacuum to reach the BDC. The energy loss is still here.

Are you guys talking about variable valve timing? or variable valve lift?

You'd need some large amount of timing variance to be able to control
cylinder filling with timing alone.

Continously variable valve lift is probably more than beyond the scope of a uni team.

On a more related note - with no pumping losses a cylinder will fill
completely with its volume at ambient pressure - is there a way, other
than making it harder for the air to enter, to limit the filling mass?
More to the point - is it possible to have cylinder filling control with
*no* pumping losses.
Letting it fill completely then releasing some before compression?

Mos.

-- 
84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.



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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 13:55:17 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:55:17 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 10:49:27AM +0100, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
> pedward at apsoft.com wrote:

> > > What the EGR really does is reduce the pumping losses at
> > > cruise due to throttling.

> > It's simpler than that.  The exhaust gases already have fuel in
> > them to some degree.  You recycle that in place of actual fuel.
> > The only way to eliminate throttle losses is to have no throttle
> > at all.  You then do the throttling via modulation of the valve
> > timing.

> Could you explain why there are no pumping losses with variable valve
> timing or clearance ?
> I see variable valves exactly like throttles, the piston still has to
> pump the vacuum to reach the BDC. The energy loss is still here.

Using the valves to throttle the flow has different effects on the
flow. It's still throttling; i.e. restricting.

The main difference is that with variable lift, that the gas flow
speeds through the valves is higher and this results in greater
swirl and filling of the chamber.

Further; the flow upstream of the valve is unthrottled, so it's at
atmospheric pressure or greater, even when not supercharged. In
essence, the vacuum the piston has to draw is out of a smaller
volume; the cylinder itself instead of the whole inlet tract.
(A bit of a simplification, but it helps to draw the mental
picture.)

The main benefit is response to changes in "throttle".

-- 
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 14:32:07 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:32:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 11:47 PM 15/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>It's simpler than that.  The exhaust gases already have fuel in them to
>some degree.  You recycle that in place of actual fuel.  The only way to
eliminate throttle losses is to have no throttle at all.  You then do the
throttling via
>modulation of the valve timing.

Is this an april fools post or am I missing something, do you class
the rather less than 0.2% of available fuel in the exhaust as
'exhaust gases alread have fuel in them to some degree' ?

I would have thought the 0.2% or less to be negligible in terms
of adding fuel to a cylinders mix for its next power cycle ! !

>What you want is an engine configuration that requires no enrichment (use EGR
>for enrichment) and has a flat torque curve.  You can cam the little motor to
>peak torque really early, but a fully variable cam timing would be the best.

Huh - I am definitely missing something here, 'use EGR for enrichment',

pray tell what 'degree' of enrichment would you expect ?

rgds

mike


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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Mon Dec 16 14:37:41 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:37:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

The curtis-wright/john deere stratified charge turbo rotaries ran around =
0.4 BSFC. Never caught on though. They are still hawked due to their =
ability to run on almost any fuel so perfect for all that gas that is =
usually just burned off in a plume.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Perry Harrington [mailto:pedward at apsoft.com]

Values and applications examples:

lb per HP	Application
.3		Aviation ICE (static loads for long periods)
.45-.5		NA ICE (Naturally aspirated)
.6		Forced induction (turbo, supercharger) ICE
.7-.8		Wankel (rotary) engines IIRC
.9		2-stroke ICE engines

I don't have any BSFC numbers for Diesel or Turbine engines.  Turbines =
are higher
and Diesels are lower, both inherent to design and fuel.  Turbines run =
on a Kerosene
like fuel, thinner then Diesel but similar properties.


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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 14:38:14 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:38:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 11:47 PM 12/15/02, Perry Harrington wrote:
>> What the EGR really does is reduce the pumping losses at cruise due to
>> throttling.
>
>It's simpler than that.  The exhaust gases already have fuel in them to
>some degree.  You recycle that in place of actual fuel.  The only way to
>eliminate
>throttle losses is to have no throttle at all.  You then do the throttling via
>modulation of the valve timing.

Or gear it so that it is close to maximum torque load at the design cruise
speed, and then modulate power with the EGR instead of a throttle.

Greg



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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 14:42:48 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:42:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 3:23 AM 12/16/02,  wrote:
>Never underestimate what you can do with analogue electronics in these
>applications.

Amen. Twisting a few pots is a BIT simpler and more reliable than a laptop !!

Greg
>
>-----Original Message-----
From: ext Perry Harrington [mailto:pedward at apsoft.com]
>
>Using an analog system is of little benefit if you've achieved EFI.  The whole
>point of EFI is that you can do things analog can't.  Just because most
>aftermarket or homebrew systems don't implement trick algorithms or strategies
>doesn't mean you have to forget them.



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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 14:44:15 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:44:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 10:32:41PM +0000, Mike wrote:
> At 11:47 PM 15/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >It's simpler than that.  The exhaust gases already have fuel in
> >them to some degree.  You recycle that in place of actual fuel.
> >The only way to eliminate throttle losses is to have no throttle
> >at all.  You then do the throttling via modulation of the valve
> >timing.

> Is this an april fools post or am I missing something, do you class
> the rather less than 0.2% of available fuel in the exhaust as
> 'exhaust gases alread have fuel in them to some degree' ?

I'm still trying to get up off the floor from laughing.

Cooled EGR is used as an _inert_ gas by several manufacturers to
reduce the effective cylinder volume and to reduce the tendency to
knock while maintaining a high cylinder pressure. (e.g. VW in their
FSI and Toyota)

> I would have thought the 0.2% or less to be negligible in terms
> of adding fuel to a cylinders mix for its next power cycle ! !

Shhh.. some people are into "recycling". ;-)

> >What you want is an engine configuration that requires no
> >enrichment (use EGR for enrichment) and has a flat torque curve.
> >You can cam the little motor to peak torque really early, but a
> >fully variable cam timing would be the best.

> Huh - I am definitely missing something here, 'use EGR for enrichment',
> pray tell what 'degree' of enrichment would you expect ?

I need another laugh as well.

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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 14:50:23 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:50:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 10:49 AM 12/16/02, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
>pedward at apsoft.com wrote:
>>
>> > What the EGR really does is reduce the pumping losses at cruise due to
>> > throttling.
>>
>> It's simpler than that.  The exhaust gases already have fuel in them to
>> some degree.  You recycle that in place of actual fuel.  The only way to
>>eliminate
>> throttle losses is to have no throttle at all.  You then do the
>>throttling via
>> modulation of the valve timing.
>
>Could you explain why there are no pumping losses with variable valve
>timing or clearance ?
>I see variable valves exactly like throttles, the piston still has to
>pump the vacuum to reach the BDC. The energy loss is still here.
>
Correct with respect to variable valve lift/timing .

The way that EGR reduces pumping losses is by providing an inert diluent
for the fuel/sir mixture, thus avoiding any need for a throttle. It DOES
hurt cycle efficiency, however--because it usually lowers the peak cycle
temperature (unless, of course, you use really HOT exhaust for the EGR !

Greg



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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 14:56:07 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:56:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 5:58 AM 12/16/02, Dave Dahlgren wrote:
>I looked at your pic of the car on the net.. You have a centrifugal clutch.
>What rpm does it lock up and how does that relate to peak torque and the
>rpm for
>max mileage?? Is it adjustable with springs or weights or can it be made to
>completely lock up so you can pull the engine down to a low rpm once you are
>moving? seems like there is no sense buzzing along at 3 or 4k rpm when you are
>trying to save fuel..
>Dave

Agreed with all of the above. Adapting a motorcycle clutch would likely be
a big improvement.

 BTW--Roller chain drives are extremely efficient. (high 90's)

Greg



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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Mon Dec 16 15:06:11 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:06:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

mos at sydney.net wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
> 
> > pedward at apsoft.com wrote:
> > > The only way to eliminate throttle losses is to have no throttle at
> > > all.  You then do the throttling via modulation of the valve timing.
> >
> > Could you explain why there are no pumping losses with variable valve
> > timing or clearance ?
> > I see variable valves exactly like throttles, the piston still has to
> > pump the vacuum to reach the BDC. The energy loss is still here.
> 
> Are you guys talking about variable valve timing? or variable valve lift?
> 
> You'd need some large amount of timing variance to be able to control
> cylinder filling with timing alone.
> 
> Continously variable valve lift is probably more than beyond the scope of a uni team.

I was asking about the continiously variable lift (like the BMW's one).

> 
> On a more related note - with no pumping losses a cylinder will fill
> completely with its volume at ambient pressure - is there a way, other
> than making it harder for the air to enter, to limit the filling mass?
> More to the point - is it possible to have cylinder filling control with
> *no* pumping losses.

In fact, that was my question :-) Is it possible ?

> Letting it fill completely then releasing some before compression?

Why not ? Any idea about how and where to release the air ?

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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Mon Dec 16 15:08:49 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:08:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 


> The way that EGR reduces pumping losses is by providing an inert diluent
> for the fuel/sir mixture, thus avoiding any need for a throttle. It DOES
> hurt cycle efficiency, however--because it usually lowers the peak cycle
> temperature (unless, of course, you use really HOT exhaust for the EGR !

I understand that can work for middle loads. But is it usable for idle ?
I mean with the conventional system the 'cycle dispersion' (is it a
right
term ? ) is high. What would it be with exhaust gazes added ?

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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Mon Dec 16 15:09:10 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:09:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 


> Using the valves to throttle the flow has different effects on the
> flow. It's still throttling; i.e. restricting.
> 
> The main difference is that with variable lift, that the gas flow
> speeds through the valves is higher and this results in greater
> swirl and filling of the chamber.
> 
> Further; the flow upstream of the valve is unthrottled, so it's at
> atmospheric pressure or greater, even when not supercharged. In
> essence, the vacuum the piston has to draw is out of a smaller
> volume; the cylinder itself instead of the whole inlet tract.
> (A bit of a simplification, but it helps to draw the mental
> picture.)

I would say that pumping from a large volume is easier than
from a small one. Am I wrong ?

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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 15:11:30 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:11:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 


>Continously variable valve lift is probably more than beyond the scope of
>a uni team.
>
>On a more related note - with no pumping losses a cylinder will fill
>completely with its volume at ambient pressure - is there a way, other
>than making it harder for the air to enter, to limit the filling mass?
>More to the point - is it possible to have cylinder filling control with
>*no* pumping losses.
>Letting it fill completely then releasing some before compression?

Nope. As mentioned, dilutiono of the mixture (as with EGR) works, though.

Greg
>
>Mos.
>
>--
>84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.



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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Mon Dec 16 15:13:48 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:13:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 


> 
> Or gear it so that it is close to maximum torque load at the design cruise
> speed, and then modulate power with the EGR instead of a throttle.

That seems to be a good idea. Did someone try to do that at least
for a cruise control ?

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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Mon Dec 16 15:19:44 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:19:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

This may  be me being daft as a brush, but I got to thinking. Air is =
generally about 70% N2. LN2 is about 10c/pint. There might be some =
mileage in adding extra nitrogen to reduce pumping losses.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Greg Hermann [mailto:bearbvd at mindspring.com]

Or gear it so that it is close to maximum torque load at the design =
cruise
speed, and then modulate power with the EGR instead of a throttle.

Greg



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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 15:22:55 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:22:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 04:10:49PM +0100, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
> > Using the valves to throttle the flow has different effects on the
> > flow. It's still throttling; i.e. restricting.

> > The main difference is that with variable lift, that the gas flow
> > speeds through the valves is higher and this results in greater
> > swirl and filling of the chamber.

> > Further; the flow upstream of the valve is unthrottled, so it's at
> > atmospheric pressure or greater, even when not supercharged. In
> > essence, the vacuum the piston has to draw is out of a smaller
> > volume; the cylinder itself instead of the whole inlet tract.
> > (A bit of a simplification, but it helps to draw the mental
> > picture.)

> I would say that pumping from a large volume is easier than
> from a small one. Am I wrong ?

The large volume in that case is planet Earth's atmosphere.

The effect is the same... the top of the inlet tracts is close to
atmospheric pressure (or possibly greater under benefical resonance)
which is usually higher than the pressure in a throttled inlet
manifold.

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Mon Dec 16 15:23:28 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:23:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

The miller cycle uses this effect.=20

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Alexei Pavlov [mailto:alexis.pavlov at st.com]
> Letting it fill completely then releasing some before compression?

Why not ? Any idea about how and where to release the air ?


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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 15:23:58 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:23:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 03:59:04PM +0100, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
> > Or gear it so that it is close to maximum torque load at the design cruise
> > speed, and then modulate power with the EGR instead of a throttle.

> That seems to be a good idea. Did someone try to do that at least
> for a cruise control ?

Volkswagen and Audi use it under part-load conditions (where
lean-burn is possible) - the throttle is fully open and EGR,
along with stratified charge is used to determine engine output.

-- 
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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 15:25:45 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:25:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 4:10 PM 12/16/02, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
>> Using the valves to throttle the flow has different effects on the
>> flow. It's still throttling; i.e. restricting.
>>
>> The main difference is that with variable lift, that the gas flow
>> speeds through the valves is higher and this results in greater
>> swirl and filling of the chamber.
>>
>> Further; the flow upstream of the valve is unthrottled, so it's at
>> atmospheric pressure or greater, even when not supercharged. In
>> essence, the vacuum the piston has to draw is out of a smaller
>> volume; the cylinder itself instead of the whole inlet tract.
>> (A bit of a simplification, but it helps to draw the mental
>> picture.)
>
>I would say that pumping from a large volume is easier than
>from a small one. Am I wrong ?

What you are missing is that there is an irreversible loss when the flow of
a gas is throttled. Doesn't matter whether the throttling process occurs at
a throttle butterfly or at the intake valve--the pumping loss occurs when
the gas in the cylinder must be compressed back up to atmospheric pressure
in order to go out through the exhaust system.

Greg



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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 15:27:41 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:27:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 10:47 PM 12/16/02, Bernd Felsche wrote:
>On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 10:32:41PM +0000, Mike wrote:
>> At 11:47 PM 15/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>> >It's simpler than that.  The exhaust gases already have fuel in
>> >them to some degree.  You recycle that in place of actual fuel.
>> >The only way to eliminate throttle losses is to have no throttle
>> >at all.  You then do the throttling via modulation of the valve
>> >timing.
>
>> Is this an april fools post or am I missing something, do you class
>> the rather less than 0.2% of available fuel in the exhaust as
>> 'exhaust gases alread have fuel in them to some degree' ?
>
>I'm still trying to get up off the floor from laughing.
>
>Cooled EGR is used as an _inert_ gas by several manufacturers to
>reduce the effective cylinder volume and to reduce the tendency to
>knock while maintaining a high cylinder pressure. (e.g. VW in their
>FSI and Toyota)

Yes, among the "little people". You left out the likes of Mack, Cummins,
and Caterpillar !! :-)

Greg



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From axel_rietschin at compuserve.com  Mon Dec 16 15:31:52 2002
From: axel_rietschin at compuserve.com (Axel Rietschin)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:31:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alexei Pavlov" 

> > Letting it fill completely then releasing some before compression?
> 
> Why not ? Any idea about how and where to release the air ?

Re-open the exhaust valve during the compression stroke?

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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Mon Dec 16 15:33:23 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:33:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 03:59:04PM +0100, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
> > > Or gear it so that it is close to maximum torque load at the design cruise
> > > speed, and then modulate power with the EGR instead of a throttle.
> 
> > That seems to be a good idea. Did someone try to do that at least
> > for a cruise control ?
> 
> Volkswagen and Audi use it under part-load conditions (where
> lean-burn is possible) - the throttle is fully open and EGR,
> along with stratified charge is used to determine engine output.

I presume they use exhaust gazes instead of fresh air to lower 
the NOx exhaust rate.

And has that been used on indirect injection engines ?

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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 15:39:45 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:39:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 9:23 AM 12/16/02,  wrote:
>This may  be me being daft as a brush, but I got to thinking. Air is
>generally about 70% N2. LN2 is about 10c/pint. There might be some mileage
>in adding extra nitrogen to reduce pumping losses.
>
>Bill

Would work, but doubtful if the rules would allow !!

Greg
>
>-----Original Message-----
From: ext Greg Hermann [mailto:bearbvd at mindspring.com]
>
>Or gear it so that it is close to maximum torque load at the design cruise
>speed, and then modulate power with the EGR instead of a throttle.
>
>Greg



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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Mon Dec 16 15:45:05 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:45:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

axel_rietschin at compuserve.com wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexei Pavlov" 
> 
> > > Letting it fill completely then releasing some before compression?
> >
> > Why not ? Any idea about how and where to release the air ?
> 
> Re-open the exhaust valve during the compression stroke?

In fact the 'how and where' were about how to not disturb the
MAP/MAF sensors with this extra air exiting the cylinder.

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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 15:47:58 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:47:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 08:20:57AM -0600, Greg Hermann wrote:
> At 10:47 PM 12/16/02, Bernd Felsche wrote:

> >Cooled EGR is used as an _inert_ gas by several manufacturers to
> >reduce the effective cylinder volume and to reduce the tendency to
> >knock while maintaining a high cylinder pressure. (e.g. VW in their
> >FSI and Toyota)

> Yes, among the "little people". You left out the likes of Mack, Cummins,
> and Caterpillar !! :-)

They're CI engines, aren't they? FSI is gasoline; direct injection.
Lean-burn operation is similar to Diesel; but there are a few
minor differences!

I don't think Formula-SAE allows Diesel cycle operation on 100
Octane fuel; especially with a B&S engine.

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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Mon Dec 16 15:51:24 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:51:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 04:10:49PM +0100, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
> > > Using the valves to throttle the flow has different effects on the
> > > flow. It's still throttling; i.e. restricting.
> 
> > > The main difference is that with variable lift, that the gas flow
> > > speeds through the valves is higher and this results in greater
> > > swirl and filling of the chamber.
> 
> > > Further; the flow upstream of the valve is unthrottled, so it's at
> > > atmospheric pressure or greater, even when not supercharged. In
> > > essence, the vacuum the piston has to draw is out of a smaller
> > > volume; the cylinder itself instead of the whole inlet tract.
> > > (A bit of a simplification, but it helps to draw the mental
> > > picture.)
> 
> > I would say that pumping from a large volume is easier than
> > from a small one. Am I wrong ?
> 
> The large volume in that case is planet Earth's atmosphere.
> 
> The effect is the same... the top of the inlet tracts is close to
> atmospheric pressure (or possibly greater under benefical resonance)
> which is usually higher than the pressure in a throttled inlet
> manifold.

So where is the gain on pumping losses ? Opening a little more the
throttle gives the same effect as removing the throttle and using
variable lift.

I understand the benefit of higher swirl.

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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 15:57:43 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:57:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 04:36:24PM +0100, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
> bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 03:59:04PM +0100, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
> > > > Or gear it so that it is close to maximum torque load at the
> > > > design cruise speed, and then modulate power with the EGR
> > > > instead of a throttle.

> > > That seems to be a good idea. Did someone try to do that at least
> > > for a cruise control ?
> > 
> > Volkswagen and Audi use it under part-load conditions (where
> > lean-burn is possible) - the throttle is fully open and EGR,
> > along with stratified charge is used to determine engine output.

> I presume they use exhaust gazes instead of fresh air to lower 
> the NOx exhaust rate.

That's a side-effect of replacing some of the charge air with inert
exhaust gas... it lowers the combustion temperature because free
oxygen molecules are "harder to find" in the air-fuel mix - also
slowing combustion and hence also reducing tendency to knock; and
because the larger volume of gas absorbs more heat from the
combustion and compression without contributing to the total energy
inside the cylinder. 

In all three aspects; it acts as a "damper".

> And has that been used on indirect injection engines ?

Could be used in port-injection, but is of more use in DI; where
stratified charge is easier to control.

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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Mon Dec 16 15:58:34 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:58:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

bill.shurvinton at nokia.com wrote:
> 
> The miller cycle uses this effect.

Could you explain in two words what's the 'miller' cycle, in
order I know what to search for in the literature.

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From jengeltx at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 16 16:05:18 2002
From: jengeltx at yahoo.com (Jeffrey Engel)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:05:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 


--- Alexei Pavlov  wrote:
> > 
> > On a more related note - with no pumping losses a
> cylinder will fill
> > completely with its volume at ambient pressure -
> is there a way, other
> > than making it harder for the air to enter, to
> limit the filling mass?
> > More to the point - is it possible to have
> cylinder filling control with
> > *no* pumping losses.
> 
> In fact, that was my question :-) Is it possible ?

Diesel engines have no throttle.  The power output is
varied by the amount of fuel injected.

That does't apply to your 3.5 HP B&S engine, though.

Jeff Engel

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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 16:12:05 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:12:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 4:52 PM 12/16/02, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
>bill.shurvinton at nokia.com wrote:
>>
>> The miller cycle uses this effect.
>
>Could you explain in two words what's the 'miller' cycle, in
>order I know what to search for in the literature.

Very late intake valve closing, together with late exhaust valve
opening--in an attempt to get a high expansion ratio (and thus more
efficiency) in combination with a not so high compression ratio (and thus
less tendency to detonate).

Greg



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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Mon Dec 16 16:17:59 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:17:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

Try searching for 'miller cycle' you get

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question132.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Alexei Pavlov [mailto:alexis.pavlov at st.com]
Sent: 16 December 2002 15:53
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy


bill.shurvinton at nokia.com wrote:
>=20
> The miller cycle uses this effect.

Could you explain in two words what's the 'miller' cycle, in
order I know what to search for in the literature.

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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 16:19:03 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:19:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 04:52:36PM +0100, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
> bill.shurvinton at nokia.com wrote:
> > 
> > The miller cycle uses this effect.

> Could you explain in two words what's the 'miller' cycle, in
> order I know what to search for in the literature.

Stuff like that is easy enough to find using a search engine like
Google that gave me 1920 hits in 0.2 seconds on the term "miller
cycle".

Here's the first hit:
	http://www.howstuffworks.com/question132.htm

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 16:19:25 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:19:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 10:47 PM 16/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>I'm still trying to get up off the floor from laughing.

:-)
Glad you liked the joke, in that I started out being serious
 now I'm not so sure, um , this has got me thinking about
variable compression, after all an inert gas displacement
would accomplish the same thing (more or less)...

rgds

mike

>Cooled EGR is used as an _inert_ gas by several manufacturers to
>reduce the effective cylinder volume and to reduce the tendency to
>knock while maintaining a high cylinder pressure. (e.g. VW in their
>FSI and Toyota)
>
>> I would have thought the 0.2% or less to be negligible in terms
>> of adding fuel to a cylinders mix for its next power cycle ! !
>
>Shhh.. some people are into "recycling". ;-)
>
>> >What you want is an engine configuration that requires no
>> >enrichment (use EGR for enrichment) and has a flat torque curve.
>> >You can cam the little motor to peak torque really early, but a
>> >fully variable cam timing would be the best.
>
>> Huh - I am definitely missing something here, 'use EGR for enrichment',
>> pray tell what 'degree' of enrichment would you expect ?
>
>I need another laugh as well.
>
>_______________________________________________
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>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 16:37:52 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:37:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 09:19 AM 16/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>>Could you explain in two words what's the 'miller' cycle, in
>>order I know what to search for in the literature.
>
>Very late intake valve closing, together with late exhaust valve
>opening--in an attempt to get a high expansion ratio (and thus more
>efficiency) in combination with a not so high compression ratio (and thus
>less tendency to detonate).

I thought there was much more to it than that !

Such as a purge cycle after exhaust - before the next intake,
ie. An extra stroke...

rgds

mike


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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Mon Dec 16 16:38:43 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (A6intruder)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:38:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] I can't find the problem!!
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2A4F6.C59806A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Slightly off topic but I hope one of you out there can point me in the right
direction.

I have a 1994 Mustang GT and have been having a fuse blow this fall, 5 times
in two months.  This circuit controls my instrumentation lights and more
importantly my tail lights and parking lights.

I have recently added my DIY-WB to the car but have not tapped into this
circuit at all.  I have checked the circuit where I can access it and have
not found any obvious shorts etc.

This problem started after leaving the lights on one day, ran the battery
down, and then jumped per usual procedure.  Ever since I haven?t had a
single factor that I can determine caused the problem.

I originally thought the headlight switch must be the problem (it has the
dimmer control in it for the instrument lights) but everything seems to work
fine.

How do I find this problem?

Help!

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880


------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2A4F6.C59806A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable





















Slightly off =
topic but I
hope one of you out there can point me in the right =
direction.



 



I have a 1994 =
Mustang GT
and have been having a fuse blow this fall, 5 times in two months.  This circuit controls my =
instrumentation
lights and more importantly my tail lights and parking =
lights.



 



I have =
recently added my DIY-WB
to the car but have not tapped into this circuit at all.  I have checked the circuit =
where I can
access it and have not found any obvious shorts etc.  



 



This problem =
started
after leaving the lights on one day, ran the battery down, and then =
jumped per
usual procedure.  Ever =
since I
haven’t had a single factor that I can determine caused the =
problem.



 



I originally =
thought the
headlight switch must be the problem (it has the dimmer control in it =
for the
instrument lights) but everything seems to work =
fine.



 



How do I find =
this
problem?



 



Help!



 



Daniel R. =
Nicoson<=
/p>


Equipment Exchange =
Company<=
/p>


Phone:  (814) 774-0888<=
/p>


Fax:      (814) =
774-0880<=
/p>


 <=
/p>








------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C2A4F6.C59806A0--


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 16 16:48:46 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:48:46 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Using EGR as poor man's CR control ?
Message-ID: 

Hi chaps,

This issue re EGR recently, ie in last few mins,

Any synopsis on considering using EGR as equivalent to
compression ration control - I guess I mean 'well cooled'
EGR through to not so well cooled and controlling the volume,

The 'bar' of acceptable engine complexities seems to be rising,
after all we know have VVL, variable length runners in current
BMWs and VVT in many cars, led it seems mostly by the japanese
in volume production...

I read somewhere a technique for CR control was through moving
the valves but it seems to me any sort of geometrical chamber
issue re CR is frought with difficulties, so could some other
issue such as EGR be in some way equivalent - ie Control
volume *and* temperature for effective CR control ?


Rgds

mike


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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Mon Dec 16 17:28:14 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:28:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

bill.shurvinton at nokia.com wrote:
> 
> Try searching for 'miller cycle' you get
> 
> http://www.howstuffworks.com/question132.htm


Thank you guys. The miller seems to rely on a compressor
to avoid the incoming air exits the cylinder.

I think my initial question 'Why there are no pumping losses with
variable valve lift' was not precise enough. This has led to
an interesting discussion, although I still want to understand
intake pumping losses :-)

In fact 1-2 month ago I read an article claiming
that the new BMW variable lift system ('Valvetronic' I think)
gets rid of intake pumping losses. And didn't see why.

These engines are indirect injected. I don't know if they
use EGR to fill the chambers (for some loads).
BMW claims a 10-15% efficiency gain (this is certanly true),
and the article claims it's partially thanks to variable lift.

I agree that the absence of the trottle removes some losses.
But valves still perform the same job: prevent the air to fill
the whole cylinder volume. I agree that such a system can
improve swirl and air speed at the valve level, but I still
don't understand why the piston has no more job to do to
pump the fresh air.

Sorry if I'm slow to understand simple thinks.

Alexis

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From Shannen at grolen.com  Mon Dec 16 17:48:15 2002
From: Shannen at grolen.com (Shannen at grolen.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:48:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

DI've retuned my car for 100% egr on acceleration, then leaned the
mixture to compensate for the extra fuel.  As soon as I can get the
thing going fast enough to leave the parking lot, I'll evaluate the true
performance potential of this mod.
Shannen
I>On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 10:32:41PM +0000, Mike wrote:
DI>> At 11:47 PM 15/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
DI>> >It's simpler than that.  The exhaust gases already have fuel in
DI>> >them to some degree.  You recycle that in place of actual fuel.
DI>> >The only way to eliminate throttle losses is to have no throttle
DI>> >at all.  You then do the throttling via modulation of the valve
DI>> >timing.

DI>> Is this an april fools post or am I missing something, do you class
DI>> the rather less than 0.2% of available fuel in the exhaust as
DI>> 'exhaust gases alread have fuel in them to some degree' ?

DI>I'm still trying to get up off the floor from laughing.

DI>Cooled EGR is used as an _inert_ gas by several manufacturers to
DI>reduce the effective cylinder volume and to reduce the tendency to
DI>knock while maintaining a high cylinder pressure. (e.g. VW in their
DI>FSI and Toyota)

DI>> I would have thought the 0.2% or less to be negligible in terms
DI>> of adding fuel to a cylinders mix for its next power cycle ! !

DI>Shhh.. some people are into "recycling". ;-)

DI>> >What you want is an engine configuration that requires no
DI>> >enrichment (use EGR for enrichment) and has a flat torque curve.
DI>> >You can cam the little motor to peak torque really early, but a
DI>> >fully variable cam timing would be the best.

DI>> Huh - I am definitely missing something here, 'use EGR for enrichment',
DI>> pray tell what 'degree' of enrichment would you expect ?

DI>I need another laugh as well.

DI>_______________________________________________
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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Mon Dec 16 17:52:39 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:52:39 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 


I looked into some Gates products for a similar application, driving the wheels
with something other than a chain they(gates) claimed they had some stuff better
than a chain though I never tested it as the project fell through. Might be
worth a call to them.

Dave

Greg Hermann wrote:

> Agreed with all of the above. Adapting a motorcycle clutch would likely be
> a big improvement.
> 
>  BTW--Roller chain drives are extremely efficient. (high 90's)
> 
> Greg
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From ggnitter at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 16 18:02:21 2002
From: ggnitter at yahoo.com (Gerald Gnitter)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:02:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Using EGR as poor man's CR control ?
Message-ID: 

It's simply a matter of dilution of the intake charge
thereby reducing the amount of cylinder pressure upon
ignition.  Certainly spent exhaust gasses re-cycled
into the combustion chamber will be slightly more
compressible than will the same volume with only fuel
vapor and air, but the delta would be literally
un-measureable.  So, mechanical compression ratio is
un-altered.
Another factor that EGR plays is as an agent that will
slow combustion.  This, in a sense, will benefit the
engine by having the same effect as a higher octane
fuel.

For un-believers, disconnect your knock sensors and
drive the car.  It will rattle.  Now, disconnect the
EGR vacuum control source.  It will rattle EXTREMELY
bad.

GG

--- Mike  wrote:
> Hi chaps,
> 
> This issue re EGR recently, ie in last few mins,
> 
> Any synopsis on considering using EGR as equivalent
> to
> compression ration control - I guess I mean 'well
> cooled'
> EGR through to not so well cooled and controlling
> the volume,
> 
> The 'bar' of acceptable engine complexities seems to
> be rising,
> after all we know have VVL, variable length runners
> in current
> BMWs and VVT in many cars, led it seems mostly by
> the japanese
> in volume production...
> 
> I read somewhere a technique for CR control was
> through moving
> the valves but it seems to me any sort of
> geometrical chamber
> issue re CR is frought with difficulties, so could
> some other
> issue such as EGR be in some way equivalent - ie
> Control
> volume *and* temperature for effective CR control ?
> 
> 
> Rgds
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From Shannen at grolen.com  Mon Dec 16 18:05:09 2002
From: Shannen at grolen.com (Shannen at grolen.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:05:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

Yikes!  Now you're proposing pushing unburnt fuel and oxygen into a hot
exhaust pipe.
DI>----- Original Message ----- 
DI>From: "Alexei Pavlov" 

DI>> > Letting it fill completely then releasing some before compression?
DI>> 
DI>> Why not ? Any idea about how and where to release the air ?

DI>Re-open the exhaust valve during the compression stroke?

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From brian.j.geddes at intel.com  Mon Dec 16 18:10:39 2002
From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:10:39 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Any other advice on this?  If a dyno is not readily available (I have an =
all-wheel drive car), could one infer a increase in torque from a =
decrease in EGTs? =20


>=20
>=20
> The DIY way is to advance until torque drops, or until it pings,
> whichever is first.  If it pings first, drop it back a notch, or use
> higher octane.
>=20
> If you are talking about a programmable chip, where you can set the
> numbers at each point, it works the same way, except the=20
> process has to
> be done for each set point.  But a rule of thumb is, greater=20
> VE calls for
> less advance, but greater RPM calls for more advance.  The=20
> torque curve
> of an engine at stock is a good starting place to guess at VE.

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From brian.j.geddes at intel.com  Mon Dec 16 19:27:58 2002
From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:27:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Also, is there any rule of thumb about how much extra advace is required =
as RPMs go up?  Say, for example, that an engine had a flat VE from 3000 =
to 7000 RPMs; how much would the timing need to increase over this =
range? =20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geddes, Brian J=20
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:11 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>=20
>=20
> Any other advice on this?  If a dyno is not readily available=20
> (I have an all-wheel drive car), could one infer a increase=20
> in torque from a decrease in EGTs? =20
>=20
>=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > The DIY way is to advance until torque drops, or until it pings,
> > whichever is first.  If it pings first, drop it back a notch, or use
> > higher octane.
> >=20
> > If you are talking about a programmable chip, where you can set the
> > numbers at each point, it works the same way, except the=20
> > process has to
> > be done for each set point.  But a rule of thumb is, greater=20
> > VE calls for
> > less advance, but greater RPM calls for more advance.  The=20
> > torque curve
> > of an engine at stock is a good starting place to guess at VE.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>=20

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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 19:28:00 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:28:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Using EGR as poor man's CR control ?
Message-ID: 

At 10:02 AM 12/16/02, Gerald Gnitter wrote:
>It's simply a matter of dilution of the intake charge
>thereby reducing the amount of cylinder pressure upon
>ignition.  Certainly spent exhaust gasses re-cycled
>into the combustion chamber will be slightly more
>compressible than will the same volume with only fuel
>vapor and air, but the delta would be literally
>un-measureable.

April fools' day again ??

The hotter the gas, the more work it takes to compress it by a given
mechanical ratio.

The higher the molecular weight of a gas, the less its temperature will
rise when it is compressed.

MW of air (average) is 29, of water vapor 18, of CO 28, of CO2 44 . Draw
your own conclusions !!

Greg

  So, mechanical compression ratio is
>un-altered.
>Another factor that EGR plays is as an agent that will
>slow combustion.  This, in a sense, will benefit the
>engine by having the same effect as a higher octane
>fuel.
>
>For un-believers, disconnect your knock sensors and
>drive the car.  It will rattle.  Now, disconnect the
>EGR vacuum control source.  It will rattle EXTREMELY
>bad.
>
>GG
>
>--- Mike  wrote:
>> Hi chaps,
>>
>> This issue re EGR recently, ie in last few mins,
>>
>> Any synopsis on considering using EGR as equivalent
>> to
>> compression ration control - I guess I mean 'well
>> cooled'
>> EGR through to not so well cooled and controlling
>> the volume,
>>
>> The 'bar' of acceptable engine complexities seems to
>> be rising,
>> after all we know have VVL, variable length runners
>> in current
>> BMWs and VVT in many cars, led it seems mostly by
>> the japanese
>> in volume production...
>>
>> I read somewhere a technique for CR control was
>> through moving
>> the valves but it seems to me any sort of
>> geometrical chamber
>> issue re CR is frought with difficulties, so could
>> some other
>> issue such as EGR be in some way equivalent - ie
>> Control
>> volume *and* temperature for effective CR control ?
>>
>>
>> Rgds
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 19:39:08 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:39:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

At 12:37 AM 12/17/02, Mike wrote:
>At 09:19 AM 16/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>>>Could you explain in two words what's the 'miller' cycle, in
>>>order I know what to search for in the literature.
>>
>>Very late intake valve closing, together with late exhaust valve
>>opening--in an attempt to get a high expansion ratio (and thus more
>>efficiency) in combination with a not so high compression ratio (and thus
>>less tendency to detonate).
>
>I thought there was much more to it than that !
>
>Such as a purge cycle after exhaust - before the next intake,
>ie. An extra stroke...

They TRY to call it a "five stroke cycle", but it is as I described.

Greg
>
>rgds
>
>mike



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From ggnitter at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 16 20:06:35 2002
From: ggnitter at yahoo.com (Gerald Gnitter)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:06:35 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Using EGR as poor man's CR control ?
Message-ID: 

I suppose you have taken the density of the gas into
consideration in your forumula?  
Basic physics tells me that higher temperature = lower
density.  
What is your rationale?

I appreciate your vantage point.

GG

--- Greg Hermann  wrote:
> At 10:02 AM 12/16/02, Gerald Gnitter wrote:
> >It's simply a matter of dilution of the intake
> charge
> >thereby reducing the amount of cylinder pressure
> upon
> >ignition.  Certainly spent exhaust gasses re-cycled
> >into the combustion chamber will be slightly more
> >compressible than will the same volume with only
> fuel
> >vapor and air, but the delta would be literally
> >un-measureable.
> 
> April fools' day again ??
> 
> The hotter the gas, the more work it takes to
> compress it by a given
> mechanical ratio.
> 
> The higher the molecular weight of a gas, the less
> its temperature will
> rise when it is compressed.
> 
> MW of air (average) is 29, of water vapor 18, of CO
> 28, of CO2 44 . Draw
> your own conclusions !!
> 
> Greg
> 
>   So, mechanical compression ratio is
> >un-altered.
> >Another factor that EGR plays is as an agent that
> will
> >slow combustion.  This, in a sense, will benefit
> the
> >engine by having the same effect as a higher octane
> >fuel.
> >
> >For un-believers, disconnect your knock sensors and
> >drive the car.  It will rattle.  Now, disconnect
> the
> >EGR vacuum control source.  It will rattle
> EXTREMELY
> >bad.
> >
> >GG
> >
> >--- Mike  wrote:
> >> Hi chaps,
> >>
> >> This issue re EGR recently, ie in last few mins,
> >>
> >> Any synopsis on considering using EGR as
> equivalent
> >> to
> >> compression ration control - I guess I mean 'well
> >> cooled'
> >> EGR through to not so well cooled and controlling
> >> the volume,
> >>
> >> The 'bar' of acceptable engine complexities seems
> to
> >> be rising,
> >> after all we know have VVL, variable length
> runners
> >> in current
> >> BMWs and VVT in many cars, led it seems mostly by
> >> the japanese
> >> in volume production...
> >>
> >> I read somewhere a technique for CR control was
> >> through moving
> >> the valves but it seems to me any sort of
> >> geometrical chamber
> >> issue re CR is frought with difficulties, so
> could
> >> some other
> >> issue such as EGR be in some way equivalent - ie
> >> Control
> >> volume *and* temperature for effective CR control
> ?
> >>
> >>
> >> Rgds
> >>
> >> mike
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
> 
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From patc at opposition.tv  Mon Dec 16 21:04:14 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:04:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

I remember seeing something about those belts a couple of years ago in a
Racecar Engineering article. Someone in the US had built a SportsD racing
car with a belt drive and a real trick form of CVT. It ran a 1000cc V4 two
stroke the made about 200HP and they reported no reliability problems at all
with the system.


I looked into some Gates products for a similar application, driving the
wheels
with something other than a chain they(gates) claimed they had some stuff
better
than a chain though I never tested it as the project fell through. Might be
worth a call to them.

Dave

Greg Hermann wrote:

> Agreed with all of the above. Adapting a motorcycle clutch would likely be
> a big improvement.
>
>  BTW--Roller chain drives are extremely efficient. (high 90's)
>
> Greg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi




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From patc at opposition.tv  Mon Dec 16 21:04:41 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:04:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Unfortunately, this is about the only way to properly optimise the timing on
an engine. Any form of calculations or even guesses will still be nowhere
near where the timing should be. And to complicate matters further, if you
do take a stab at it and get it wrong, your pistons will never forgive you.
I have seen people try to pick max torque/VE values off of the fuel map with
disastrous consequences.

The stock ignition map will generally be "safe" but probably some ways off
the mark when it comes to optimised performance.


Any other advice on this?  If a dyno is not readily available (I have an =
all-wheel drive car), could one infer a increase in torque from a =
decrease in EGTs? =20


>=20
>=20
> The DIY way is to advance until torque drops, or until it pings,
> whichever is first.  If it pings first, drop it back a notch, or use
> higher octane.
>=20
> If you are talking about a programmable chip, where you can set the
> numbers at each point, it works the same way, except the=20
> process has to
> be done for each set point.  But a rule of thumb is, greater=20
> VE calls for
> less advance, but greater RPM calls for more advance.  The=20
> torque curve
> of an engine at stock is a good starting place to guess at VE.




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From eric.deslauriers at oracle.com  Mon Dec 16 21:33:15 2002
From: eric.deslauriers at oracle.com (Eric Deslauriers)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:33:15 -0300
Subject: Belt drives: was RE: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Martin Christensen's BMW powered Class 10 buggy being run in the SCORE
offroad series (think Baja 1000) originally used belt drive. He had to stop
since so much junk was getting thrown into the belts by the front tires that
they were getting chewed up. I don't remember the mfgr, but Martin's based
out of Escondido, CA if that helps anyone. Good start for a Google search
anyways.

He's running an E30 M3 motor - that's a 4 cylinder motor easily capable of
200+hp.

Don't remember where I read it. Bimmer magazine maybe?

Not saying belts are a bad idea, just not a good one for Baja 1000 style
running. :)

Eric D

> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of Patrick Cahill
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:09 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
>
>
> I remember seeing something about those belts a couple of years ago in a
> Racecar Engineering article. Someone in the US had built a SportsD racing
> car with a belt drive and a real trick form of CVT. It ran a 1000cc V4 two
> stroke the made about 200HP and they reported no reliability
> problems at all
> with the system.
>
>
> I looked into some Gates products for a similar application, driving the
> wheels
> with something other than a chain they(gates) claimed they had some stuff
> better
> than a chain though I never tested it as the project fell
> through. Might be
> worth a call to them.
>
> Dave
>
> Greg Hermann wrote:
>
> > Agreed with all of the above. Adapting a motorcycle clutch
> would likely be
> > a big improvement.
> >
> >  BTW--Roller chain drives are extremely efficient. (high 90's)
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From bcroe at juno.com  Mon Dec 16 21:36:03 2002
From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:36:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Analog EFI ECU
Message-ID: 

Cadillac built a decent analog, open loop EFI from 75-79.  Many 
are still on the road.

Bruce Roe

16 Dec 2002 bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann) writes:
> At 3:23 AM 12/16/02,  wrote:
> >Never underestimate what you can do with analogue electronics in 
> >these applications.
> 
> Amen. Twisting a few pots is a BIT simpler and more reliable than a 
> laptop !!
> 
> Greg

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 16 21:36:38 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:36:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Patrick Cahill  wrote:

> Unfortunately, this is about the only way to
> properly optimise the timing on an engine.

I concur.  My feeling is that the best way is to use
an eddy current chassis dyno and hold the vehicle
steady-state under a given load, and then adjust the
timing using EGA, and possibly EGT as a backup.  This
is assuming you have already optimized the fuel map
for best power across the board.

My experience has been that when tweaking an engine
designed for performance (sportscar/motorcycle), you
should have to do little or no modification to the
fuel mapping after optimizing the timing.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From bcroe at juno.com  Mon Dec 16 21:37:30 2002
From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:37:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] I can't find the problem!!
Message-ID: 

When an intermittent messes up my EFI car, I solder 2 wires 
to the blown fuse, and run them to one of those miniature plug 
in circuit breakers.  At it least it comes right back after a fault. 
If it gets permanent, you can trace it down.

Another way to find it is divide it into multiple circuits, each 
with their own temporary fuse. When one fuse blows, divide
that circuit down (combine the others) till there is only one 
thing left.

Bruce Roe

16 Dec 2002 "A6intruder"  writes:

> I have a 1994 Mustang GT and have been having a fuse blow this 
> fall, 5 times in two months.  This circuit controls my instrumentation 
> lights and more importantly my tail lights and parking lights.
> 
> I have recently added my DIY-WB to the car but have not tapped into 
> this
> circuit at all.  I have checked the circuit where I can access it 
> and have
> not found any obvious shorts etc.
> 
> This problem started after leaving the lights on one day, ran the 
> battery
> down, and then jumped per usual procedure.  Ever since I haven?t had 
> a
> single factor that I can determine caused the problem.
> 
> I originally thought the headlight switch must be the problem (it 
> has the
> dimmer control in it for the instrument lights) but everything seems 
> to work
> fine.
> 
> How do I find this problem?
> 
> Help!
> 
> Daniel R. Nicoson
> Equipment Exchange Company
> Phone:  (814) 774-0888
> Fax:      (814) 774-0880
> 


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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 16 22:39:47 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 19:39:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Using EGR as poor man's CR control ?
Message-ID: 

At 12:12 PM 12/16/02, Gerald Gnitter wrote:
>I suppose you have taken the density of the gas into
>consideration in your forumula?

No. was comparing work required to compress equal masses or mass flows of
gas, not equal volumes.

Greg

>Basic physics tells me that higher temperature = lower
>density.
>What is your rationale?
>
>I appreciate your vantage point.
>
>GG
>
>--- Greg Hermann  wrote:
>> At 10:02 AM 12/16/02, Gerald Gnitter wrote:
>> >It's simply a matter of dilution of the intake
>> charge
>> >thereby reducing the amount of cylinder pressure
>> upon
>> >ignition.  Certainly spent exhaust gasses re-cycled
>> >into the combustion chamber will be slightly more
>> >compressible than will the same volume with only
>> fuel
>> >vapor and air, but the delta would be literally
>> >un-measureable.
>>
>> April fools' day again ??
>>
>> The hotter the gas, the more work it takes to
>> compress it by a given
>> mechanical ratio.
>>
>> The higher the molecular weight of a gas, the less
>> its temperature will
>> rise when it is compressed.
>>
>> MW of air (average) is 29, of water vapor 18, of CO
>> 28, of CO2 44 . Draw
>> your own conclusions !!
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>   So, mechanical compression ratio is
>> >un-altered.
>> >Another factor that EGR plays is as an agent that
>> will
>> >slow combustion.  This, in a sense, will benefit
>> the
>> >engine by having the same effect as a higher octane
>> >fuel.
>> >
>> >For un-believers, disconnect your knock sensors and
>> >drive the car.  It will rattle.  Now, disconnect
>> the
>> >EGR vacuum control source.  It will rattle
>> EXTREMELY
>> >bad.
>> >
>> >GG
>> >
>> >--- Mike  wrote:
>> >> Hi chaps,
>> >>
>> >> This issue re EGR recently, ie in last few mins,
>> >>
>> >> Any synopsis on considering using EGR as
>> equivalent
>> >> to
>> >> compression ration control - I guess I mean 'well
>> >> cooled'
>> >> EGR through to not so well cooled and controlling
>> >> the volume,
>> >>
>> >> The 'bar' of acceptable engine complexities seems
>> to
>> >> be rising,
>> >> after all we know have VVL, variable length
>> runners
>> >> in current
>> >> BMWs and VVT in many cars, led it seems mostly by
>> >> the japanese
>> >> in volume production...
>> >>
>> >> I read somewhere a technique for CR control was
>> >> through moving
>> >> the valves but it seems to me any sort of
>> >> geometrical chamber
>> >> issue re CR is frought with difficulties, so
>> could
>> >> some other
>> >> issue such as EGR be in some way equivalent - ie
>> >> Control
>> >> volume *and* temperature for effective CR control
>> ?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Rgds
>> >>
>> >> mike
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Diy_efi mailing list
>> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >
>> >
>> >__________________________________________________
>> >Do you Yahoo!?
>> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
>> now.
>> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>> >
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>> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>>
>>
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>
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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 16 22:42:47 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 19:42:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator
Message-ID: 

Does anyone know of an equation, or maybe a online calculator, that can tell me
how much HP is required to maintain a given speed, given the drag coefficient of
the vehicle?

I can calculate the g forces at any speed based upon my RPM rate of change, and
therefore, acceleration (assuming no tire spin), which I have in 30 samples/sec
in my log files.

I can calculate horsepower from g-force and road speed (also constantly logged).
I just need to add the horsepower lost through wind resistance. I want to keep
drivetrain losses, I want a RWHP figure, not FWHP.


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From patc at opposition.tv  Mon Dec 16 23:42:10 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:42:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Alexei Pavlov wrote:

> pedward at apsoft.com wrote:
> > The only way to eliminate throttle losses is to have no throttle at
> > all.  You then do the throttling via modulation of the valve timing.
>
> Could you explain why there are no pumping losses with variable valve
> timing or clearance ?
> I see variable valves exactly like throttles, the piston still has to
> pump the vacuum to reach the BDC. The energy loss is still here.

Are you guys talking about variable valve timing? or variable valve lift?

You'd need some large amount of timing variance to be able to control
cylinder filling with timing alone.

Continously variable valve lift is probably more than beyond the scope of a
uni team.

On a more related note - with no pumping losses a cylinder will fill
completely with its volume at ambient pressure - is there a way, other
than making it harder for the air to enter, to limit the filling mass?
More to the point - is it possible to have cylinder filling control with
*no* pumping losses.
Letting it fill completely then releasing some before compression?

Mos.


Check out the way the current GDI systems work. The throttle body is usually
quite large but is wide open except for low rpm operation (<2000rpm) in the
interests of driveability. The reason is increase efficiency due to a
drastic reduction in pumping losses. The restriction from the throttle is
the cause of most of the pumping losses at anything but WOT, so they have
done away with it and limit engine torque via some very tricky stratified
charge injection and clever manipulation of the ignition timing. However, it
was found that trying to limit torque via the timing alone to that extent
was terribly inefficient and results in atrocious emissions and even worse
economy.

Either variable valve timing or lift will only have minor influence on
pumping losses in comparison.


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From pedward at apsoft.com  Tue Dec 17 00:40:03 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:40:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 10:49:27AM +0100, Alexei Pavlov wrote:
> pedward at apsoft.com wrote:
> > 
> > > What the EGR really does is reduce the pumping losses at cruise due to
> > > throttling.
> > 
> > It's simpler than that.  The exhaust gases already have fuel in them to
> > some degree.  You recycle that in place of actual fuel.  The only way to eliminate
> > throttle losses is to have no throttle at all.  You then do the throttling via
> > modulation of the valve timing.
> 
> Could you explain why there are no pumping losses with variable valve
> timing or clearance ?
> I see variable valves exactly like throttles, the piston still has to
> pump the vacuum to reach the BDC. The energy loss is still here.

I didn't say pumping losses, I said throttling losses.

--Perry

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.
                             -- Benjamin Franklin

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 00:57:36 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:57:36 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator
Message-ID: 

--- Derek  wrote:

> Does anyone know of an equation, or maybe a online
> calculator, that can tell me how much HP is required
> to maintain a given speed, given the drag
> coefficient of the vehicle?

You might find much of what you need here:
http://www.windpower.dk/tour/wtrb/dragrace.htm
http://www.windpower.dk/tour/wtrb/dragcalc.htm

Possibly better:  http://home.earthlink.net/~jonaa/topspeed.html

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From pedward at apsoft.com  Tue Dec 17 01:07:19 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 22:07:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EGR and Valve phasing/lift
Message-ID: 

Ok, so admit I didn't know the full reasons for EGR.  The predominant reason
I heard was the unburnt HC in the exhaust being used to supplement the fuel
injected in the first place.  The inert gas explanation sounds like the rest
of the picture.  Mind you my explanation came from some early 80's 5.0l
literature (carbed), a little blurb in a repair manual I think.  In any case
the EGR is a beneficial tool for fuel efficiency.

On variable valve lift, etc.  The problem is that valves are old and cause
problems.  What I was thinking was making a custom head with 2 cylinders
in the exhaust and intake tracts that rotate to allow gases through.  You
essentially have a cylinder big enough to flow the full intake/exhaust flow
when turned to 90 degrees, but blocks off the flow and seals the combustion
chamber when at 0 degrees.  You could crudely control these with a camshaft
and follower mechanism to initiate a positive locking (kinda how desmo works).

Ultimately I'd want either a stepper control or a cylinder that can be moved
in and out ala Mikuni slide carb with solenoid control.

You could eliminate the intake tract restrictions using this type of mechanism
and it is easily expandable to full airflow control.

I may pursue this approach for a B&S motor or some other small 4 stroke motor
(maybe a motorcycle single).

Also, if you made the rotating cylinder large enough and located it correctly,
you could just directly spin the cylinder with a timing chain/belt.  Since
the camshaft moves half the speed of the crank, you could cut passages into
the cylinder to pass/nopass gases when you wanted.  The other benefit I see
is that the combustion chamber could be make smaller using this technology
and you'd see a higher CR.  Perhaps it would also lend itself to lower deto
because of smooth contours.  There are lots of ideas to be tried with this
method of valving gases.

If you still don't picture it, just think of a ball petcock used for water
shutoffs.

--Perry

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.
                             -- Benjamin Franklin

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec 17 05:28:01 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 02:28:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EGR and Valve phasing/lift
Message-ID: 

At 06:16 PM 16/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Ok, so admit I didn't know the full reasons for EGR.

This is the key issue, so I think most people would expect
you not to talk (seemingly) authoritatively about something
you dont understand, especially when there could well be
transient visitors to this list that dont get to follow
up on the innacuracy of your assertions and perpetuate
your fallacy - this is how bad science gets spread with the
internet as the apparent cause :(

Asking questions and discussing is what this group is
all about, making statements that appear factual when
you dont know what you're talking about isnt helpful,
it causes  noise which clutters the list...

Next time you feel inclined to make statements, I'd
suggest you preface then with "I think" or "I guess,
any comments", tah

rgds

mike

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From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Tue Dec 17 09:24:04 2002
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 06:24:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Lubrication
Message-ID: 



Bernd,
	I was not advertising, or seeking business simply quoting my experience.
and to correct your assertion: PRO-MA does have company websites in Australia, NZ, Canada/USA, Papua and New Guinea, and UK.

The main(head office) site is: 

The data sheet for the grease in particular has more technical, 
performance and test specifications quoted than I have seen for anyone 
else's products.
I have a scanned copy and am happy to email it to you for your perusal 
and comments if you are interested. If not that also is fine. I am not 
in it as a business, but only for my own use and convenience. I use them 
because they are the best at what they do that I have yet found, and if 
someone can demonstrate to me something better that is affordable I'm 
happy to change my opinions, I have no axe to grind and nothing to lose.

I have been given to understand that these products have been used by 
the US military for a number of years, but since I don't have any 
documentary proof I could be mistaken.

I was going to reply to you directly, but changed my mind since you had 
commented on list, I thought that I should reply on list.

Best Regards
Bill

>--__--__--
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:36:22 +0800
From: Bernd Felsche 
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Lubrication - wheel bearings
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>On Fri, Dec 13, 2002 at 06:27:35PM +1100, Bill Washington wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Mike, Bernd, Have you gents heard of Pro-Ma lubricants: Oil additives, 
>>Wheel Bearing Grease, and Lubricant spray? I use it and sell it and have 
>>    
>>
>
>They're nothing special.
>
>There are plenty of fringe-product being multi-level marketed.
>Some work better than others. Some are expensively-repackaged
>products that can be bought for a fraction of the price from other
>sources. And some degrade other substances that co-habit engines,
>transmissions and bearings.
>
>Unless you're working for K-mart, etc; you would never say that what
>you're selling is crap. I'm not saying that it is; the lack of
>_technical_ literature for the product amongst the pile of
>testimonials in the marketing literature rings enough alarm bells to
>make me reach for a barge-pole.
>
>Absence of a company website; anywhere on the planet, makes me worry
>about the value of guarrantees of performance.
>
>  
>
>>found it excellent for reducing friction in bearings and also sliding 
>>surfaces - sometimes too much! - one spring loaded, sliding surface 
>>changed (with one application) from being so stiff it was almost 
>>impossible to move without breaking the mechanism to being so slippery 
>>that it wouldn't stay in any location (the spring loading hadn't 
>>changed!). 
>>    
>>
>
>Just about any lubricant will achieve that.
>
>  
>
>>I have been using these products now for about 10 years and 
>>find them great. If anyone wants more info please contact me directly 
>>(off list) and I will be happy to let you know more. Regards Bill 
>>    
>>
>
>Apologies if this seems harsh; but it's what you should expect for
>unsolicited advertising.
>
>  
>



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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Tue Dec 17 09:39:27 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 06:39:27 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EGR and Valve phasing/lift
Message-ID: 

pedward at apsoft.com wrote:
> 
> Ok, so admit I didn't know the full reasons for EGR.  The predominant reason
> I heard was the unburnt HC in the exhaust being used to supplement the fuel
> injected in the first place.  The inert gas explanation sounds like the rest
> of the picture.  Mind you my explanation came from some early 80's 5.0l
> literature (carbed), a little blurb in a repair manual I think.  In any case
> the EGR is a beneficial tool for fuel efficiency.
> 
> On variable valve lift, etc.  The problem is that valves are old and cause
> problems.  What I was thinking was making a custom head with 2 cylinders
> in the exhaust and intake tracts that rotate to allow gases through.  You
> essentially have a cylinder big enough to flow the full intake/exhaust flow
> when turned to 90 degrees, but blocks off the flow and seals the combustion
> chamber when at 0 degrees.  You could crudely control these with a camshaft
> and follower mechanism to initiate a positive locking (kinda how desmo works).
> 
> Ultimately I'd want either a stepper control or a cylinder that can be moved
> in and out ala Mikuni slide carb with solenoid control.
> 
> You could eliminate the intake tract restrictions using this type of mechanism
> and it is easily expandable to full airflow control.
> 
> I may pursue this approach for a B&S motor or some other small 4 stroke motor
> (maybe a motorcycle single).
> 
> Also, if you made the rotating cylinder large enough and located it correctly,
> you could just directly spin the cylinder with a timing chain/belt.  Since
> the camshaft moves half the speed of the crank, you could cut passages into
> the cylinder to pass/nopass gases when you wanted.  The other benefit I see
> is that the combustion chamber could be make smaller using this technology
> and you'd see a higher CR.  Perhaps it would also lend itself to lower deto
> because of smooth contours.  There are lots of ideas to be tried with this
> method of valving gases.

It seems to me that all these systems were used in the beginning of the
20th century :-) Also VW have used them on SI engines.

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec 17 10:18:06 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:18:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Lubrication
Message-ID: 

is this the stuff that used to have micro lead clusters added
to engine oil ?

Or is it like the chlorinated parrafins used by bitron ?

rgds

mike


At 08:26 PM 17/12/2002 +1100, you wrote:
>
>
>Bernd,
>	I was not advertising, or seeking business simply quoting my experience.
>and to correct your assertion: PRO-MA does have company websites in
Australia, NZ, Canada/USA, Papua and New Guinea, and UK.
>
>The main(head office) site is: 
>
>The data sheet for the grease in particular has more technical, 
>performance and test specifications quoted than I have seen for anyone 
>else's products.
>I have a scanned copy and am happy to email it to you for your perusal 
>and comments if you are interested. If not that also is fine. I am not 
>in it as a business, but only for my own use and convenience. I use them 
>because they are the best at what they do that I have yet found, and if 
>someone can demonstrate to me something better that is affordable I'm 
>happy to change my opinions, I have no axe to grind and nothing to lose.
>
>I have been given to understand that these products have been used by 
>the US military for a number of years, but since I don't have any 
>documentary proof I could be mistaken.
>
>I was going to reply to you directly, but changed my mind since you had 
>commented on list, I thought that I should reply on list.
>
>Best Regards
>Bill
>
>>--__--__--
>>
>>Message: 8
>>Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:36:22 +0800
>>From: Bernd Felsche 
>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Lubrication - wheel bearings
>>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>
>>On Fri, Dec 13, 2002 at 06:27:35PM +1100, Bill Washington wrote:
>>
>>  
>>
>>>Mike, Bernd, Have you gents heard of Pro-Ma lubricants: Oil additives, 
>>>Wheel Bearing Grease, and Lubricant spray? I use it and sell it and have 
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>They're nothing special.
>>
>>There are plenty of fringe-product being multi-level marketed.
>>Some work better than others. Some are expensively-repackaged
>>products that can be bought for a fraction of the price from other
>>sources. And some degrade other substances that co-habit engines,
>>transmissions and bearings.
>>
>>Unless you're working for K-mart, etc; you would never say that what
>>you're selling is crap. I'm not saying that it is; the lack of
>>_technical_ literature for the product amongst the pile of
>>testimonials in the marketing literature rings enough alarm bells to
>>make me reach for a barge-pole.
>>
>>Absence of a company website; anywhere on the planet, makes me worry
>>about the value of guarrantees of performance.
>>
>>  
>>
>>>found it excellent for reducing friction in bearings and also sliding 
>>>surfaces - sometimes too much! - one spring loaded, sliding surface 
>>>changed (with one application) from being so stiff it was almost 
>>>impossible to move without breaking the mechanism to being so slippery 
>>>that it wouldn't stay in any location (the spring loading hadn't 
>>>changed!). 
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>Just about any lubricant will achieve that.
>>
>>  
>>
>>>I have been using these products now for about 10 years and 
>>>find them great. If anyone wants more info please contact me directly 
>>>(off list) and I will be happy to let you know more. Regards Bill 
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>Apologies if this seems harsh; but it's what you should expect for
>>unsolicited advertising.
>>
>>  
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Tue Dec 17 11:16:43 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 08:16:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Over the last 20 years I have not found this to be true at all. I have never had
the chance to run an engine on an eddy current dyno but I suspect the results
from a water brake to be similar. What I have found is that when the timing is
retarded from optimal that the engine runs richer or indicates it might be a
better selection of words. The NTK wide band will read richer with the same
amount of fuel and if timing is advanced to optimal it indicates leaner to the
point I am tempted to add more fuel. The EGT I have found to be very useful for
timing adjustments as well. Too hot explore a degree or two more timing and see
if it goes down as long as A/F ratio is reasonable. Same goes for too cold take
a couple of degrees out. EGT I have always shot for is about 1300 to 1350 after
5 seconds at load with a N/A engine. I have also generally shot for an A/F ratio
of 13.3 to 14.0 at WOT depending on the combustion chamber design and fuel used
on an N/A engine. This is of course starting at some reasonable timing curve for
the engine I have no idea how it would work if you are miles off in adjustment
as I try not to prove the absurd nor do I start with an aggressive timing curve
as well. If I think it will need about 36 degrees at WOT for a given rpm I start
at 32 or 33.. These are race engines as well and light throttle cruise settings
I have no experience with, we never are at these points, so this method may well
be useless in exploring those settings.

Dave

Adam Wade wrote:

> 
> I concur.  My feeling is that the best way is to use
> an eddy current chassis dyno and hold the vehicle
> steady-state under a given load, and then adjust the
> timing using EGA, and possibly EGT as a backup.  This
> is assuming you have already optimized the fuel map
> for best power across the board.
> 
> My experience has been that when tweaking an engine
> designed for performance (sportscar/motorcycle), you
> should have to do little or no modification to the
> fuel mapping after optimizing the timing.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade


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From roots66 at flexoink.com  Tue Dec 17 14:36:02 2002
From: roots66 at flexoink.com (Noel Strauss)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:36:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blower
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2A5B0.1480AEC0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Does anyone have experience with setting up the EFI

on a 16 injector BDS bugcatcher? Need help with base fuel map and cold =
start.=20


------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2A5B0.1480AEC0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Does anyone have experience with setting up the =
EFI
on=20
a 16 injector BDS bugcatcher? Need help with base fuel =
map and=20
cold start. 


------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C2A5B0.1480AEC0--


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From michalk at awpi.com  Tue Dec 17 16:42:17 2002
From: michalk at awpi.com (Brian Michalk)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 13:42:17 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EGR and Valve phasing/lift
Message-ID: 

If you could make the rotating valve out of carbon fiber, then it would be
self lubricating.  The contact forces wouldn't seem to be too high.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of Alexei Pavlov
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 3:39 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EGR and Valve phasing/lift
>
>
> pedward at apsoft.com wrote:
> >
> > Ok, so admit I didn't know the full reasons for EGR.  The
> predominant reason
> > I heard was the unburnt HC in the exhaust being used to
> supplement the fuel
> > injected in the first place.  The inert gas explanation sounds
> like the rest
> > of the picture.  Mind you my explanation came from some early 80's 5.0l
> > literature (carbed), a little blurb in a repair manual I think.
>  In any case
> > the EGR is a beneficial tool for fuel efficiency.
> >
> > On variable valve lift, etc.  The problem is that valves are
> old and cause
> > problems.  What I was thinking was making a custom head with 2 cylinders
> > in the exhaust and intake tracts that rotate to allow gases
> through.  You
> > essentially have a cylinder big enough to flow the full
> intake/exhaust flow
> > when turned to 90 degrees, but blocks off the flow and seals
> the combustion
> > chamber when at 0 degrees.  You could crudely control these
> with a camshaft
> > and follower mechanism to initiate a positive locking (kinda
> how desmo works).
> >
> > Ultimately I'd want either a stepper control or a cylinder that
> can be moved
> > in and out ala Mikuni slide carb with solenoid control.
> >
> > You could eliminate the intake tract restrictions using this
> type of mechanism
> > and it is easily expandable to full airflow control.
> >
> > I may pursue this approach for a B&S motor or some other small
> 4 stroke motor
> > (maybe a motorcycle single).
> >
> > Also, if you made the rotating cylinder large enough and
> located it correctly,
> > you could just directly spin the cylinder with a timing
> chain/belt.  Since
> > the camshaft moves half the speed of the crank, you could cut
> passages into
> > the cylinder to pass/nopass gases when you wanted.  The other
> benefit I see
> > is that the combustion chamber could be make smaller using this
> technology
> > and you'd see a higher CR.  Perhaps it would also lend itself
> to lower deto
> > because of smooth contours.  There are lots of ideas to be
> tried with this
> > method of valving gases.
>
> It seems to me that all these systems were used in the beginning of the
> 20th century :-) Also VW have used them on SI engines.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From hugh at sol.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 18:40:54 2002
From: hugh at sol.co.uk (Hugh Keir)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:40:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

My understanding is that as you advance ignition timing you will reduce the
exhaust gas temperature by creating a more complete burn of the air / fuel
mix in the cylinder.

The limitation is that at the onset of detonation EGT will rise sharply.

Is maximum torque found just before detonation? I am fairly sure this is
correct on high load acceleration but I am not certain on low load. I read
an SAE paper about in-cylinder pressures that discussed this subject and
concluded the above to be true, but as far I remember most of the tests were
carried out at 3000RPM.

Santa can I please have an ION sensing kit for Christmas!

Cheers

Hugh




----- Original Message -----
From: "Geddes, Brian J" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 6:10 PM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?


Any other advice on this?  If a dyno is not readily available (I have an
all-wheel drive car), could one infer a increase in torque from a decrease
in EGTs?


>
>
> The DIY way is to advance until torque drops, or until it pings,
> whichever is first.  If it pings first, drop it back a notch, or use
> higher octane.
>
> If you are talking about a programmable chip, where you can set the
> numbers at each point, it works the same way, except the
> process has to
> be done for each set point.  But a rule of thumb is, greater
> VE calls for
> less advance, but greater RPM calls for more advance.  The
> torque curve
> of an engine at stock is a good starting place to guess at VE.

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 19:50:29 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:50:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:

> Over the last 20 years I have not found this to be
> true at all.

...

> The NTK wide band will read richer with the same
> amount of fuel and if timing is advanced to optimal
> it indicates leaner to the point I am tempted to add
> more fuel.

Which is why I don't use an O2 sensor of any sort for
tuning on a dyno.  While it is a fine toold for what
it is, it cannot give nearly the depth of data that a
four-gas analyzer can.  It won't indicate rich or lean
if the timing is not optimal.  In fact, with training
in what to look for, it is possible to see when a
single cylinder is rich or lean from the rest
(although you cannot tell which one unless you have
probe ports in each runner of the exhaust manifold.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Tue Dec 17 19:52:50 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:52:50 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

> Which is why I don't use an O2 sensor of any sort for
> tuning on a dyno.  While it is a fine toold for what
> it is, it cannot give nearly the depth of data that a
> four-gas analyzer can.  It won't indicate rich or lean
> if the timing is not optimal.  In fact, with training
> in what to look for, it is possible to see when a
> single cylinder is rich or lean from the rest
> (although you cannot tell which one unless you have
> probe ports in each runner of the exhaust manifold.

a) how much is a four gas analyzer?
b) is they a diy_fga list or something?
c) why do most tuning places seem to use wbo2 over fga?  price? ease of
use??

Can't you figure out if timing is optimal by EGT to a certain degree? (i
havent been following the thread)


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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Tue Dec 17 20:09:22 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:09:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 


timing is optimal when max TQ at each load point and rpm has been achieved. 
now this will for sure cuase emisions issues(high NOX2). then use EGR to 
bring it under control. my 2 cents anyways. aside form all of that there is 
still the issue of throttle repsonse it may want more or less depends on the 
effieceny of the combustion chamber, injector position, and enrichment 
avialble and the time it takes for it to reach the combustion chamber. as for 
fueling a WB02 has been used many times and with good results i say it 
depends on the person veiwing the  data. me when i can i get use of a 5gas 
anaylizer. cant beat it hands down but man that thing is exspsnsive. 

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Tue Dec 17 20:09:57 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:09:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

How long does it take for this to stabilize and get good data? I had always
thought and possibly incorrectly that they 4 gas analyzer was fairly slow in
response time. Are they faster now so a 3 or 4 second pull will net good data?
Most of the stuff I work on is pretty highly stressed so I am not so sure it
would live through a 20 second pull at all the points that need to be programed.
Most of the turbo stuff is over 1000 hp for a 3 liter engine the 2.1 liters are
around 800..
Dave

Adam Wade wrote:

> > The NTK wide band will read richer with the same
> > amount of fuel and if timing is advanced to optimal
> > it indicates leaner to the point I am tempted to add
> > more fuel.
> 
> Which is why I don't use an O2 sensor of any sort for
> tuning on a dyno.  While it is a fine toold for what
> it is, it cannot give nearly the depth of data that a
> four-gas analyzer can.  It won't indicate rich or lean
> if the timing is not optimal.  In fact, with training
> in what to look for, it is possible to see when a
> single cylinder is rich or lean from the rest
> (although you cannot tell which one unless you have
> probe ports in each runner of the exhaust manifold.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 20:13:10 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:13:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

> a) how much is a four gas analyzer?

A tremendous amount of money.  The O2 sensor is truly
more than enough for most people.

> b) is they a diy_fga list or something?

Well, if you want to put it that way, this isn't the
diy_wb list, either.  I was simply replying to a
comment that the WBO2 was "fooled" into seeing rich or
lean based on changes in ignition timing.

> c) why do most tuning places seem to use wbo2 over
> fga?

Couldn't tell you.  I can tell you that in my
experience, the ones that use inertial dynos and O2
sensors for highly-responsive motors always get worse
results than places that use eddy current dynos and
four-gas analyzers (having worked with and for both at
the racetrack, and retuned bikes going both
directions).

> price? ease of use??

An eddy current with a four-gas is as easy to use as
an inertial with an O2 sensor, so price may be a
factor, although the price difference is pretty small
as a ratio to the overall investment in hardware.

> Can't you figure out if timing is optimal by EGT to
> a certain degree? (i havent been following the
> thread)

Not as far as I have been able to determine.  In fact,
inertial dynos don't have the precision to see small
changes in timing or fueling, but lap times tell no
lies...  And they match the results I've gotten with
an eddy current and a four-gas.

In any case, I was merely pointing out that with a
four-gas, you can tune for optimal timing based on
exhaust gases, and all you need to do is hold the
vehicle steady-state at a given load to do so.  An
eddy current dyno happens to be the easiest way I have
found to obtain that.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From shurvinton at orange.net  Tue Dec 17 20:20:03 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:20:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Can you just clairfy this. We are short on 'popular' engine tuners here in
the UK, but perceived wisdom here is that 4 gas is only useable on an engine
dyno as response time is too slow for a chassis dyno.

Have you found a way around this, or is your tuning limited to engine dyno
work?

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs


> --- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
>
> > Over the last 20 years I have not found this to be
> > true at all.
>
> ...
>
> > The NTK wide band will read richer with the same
> > amount of fuel and if timing is advanced to optimal
> > it indicates leaner to the point I am tempted to add
> > more fuel.
>
> Which is why I don't use an O2 sensor of any sort for
> tuning on a dyno.  While it is a fine toold for what
> it is, it cannot give nearly the depth of data that a
> four-gas analyzer can.  I


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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Tue Dec 17 20:20:43 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:20:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

> Not as far as I have been able to determine.  In fact,
> inertial dynos don't have the precision to see small
> changes in timing or fueling, but lap times tell no
> lies...  And they match the results I've gotten with
> an eddy current and a four-gas.

An inertial dyno is, for example, a dynojet??

What's an example of an eddy-current dyno??

> In any case, I was merely pointing out that with a
> four-gas, you can tune for optimal timing based on
> exhaust gases, and all you need to do is hold the
> vehicle steady-state at a given load to do so.  An
> eddy current dyno happens to be the easiest way I have
> found to obtain that.

Well for someone who isn't fighting for tens of horsepower, let alone tenths
of horsepower, is inertial dyno (dynojet) + wbo2 + competent tuner good
enough?? =)


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 20:22:04 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:22:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:

> How long does it take for this to stabilize and get
> good data?

A lot depends on the length of your exhaust system.  I
used it with motorcycles, and it took about a half a
second for the exhaust gas readings to stabilize
enough for a clean reading.

> I had always thought and possibly incorrectly that
> they 4 gas analyzer was fairly slow in response
> time.

Oh, it would be totally unusable on an inertial dyno. 
then again, so would any tailpipe gas reader,
including an O2 sensor.  Most of the lag is the time
the gases take to get to the end of the exhaust
system.  If you had a port up near the cylinder head,
that time would be cut dramatically.  There would
still be more of a lag for a four-gas, but since an
eddy current dyno steady-states the speed and load of
the vehicle, you could wait indefinitely, as long as
you had sufficient cooling air.

> Are they faster now so a 3 or 4 second pull will net
> good data?

I can't speak for putting a probe down the tailpipe of
a car, but I can get a load/speed site accurately
analyzed on an eddy current dyno with a four-gas on a
motorcycle in that time period, consistently, yes.

> Most of the stuff I work on is pretty highly
> stressed so I am not so sure it would live through a
> 20 second pull at all the points that need to be
> programed.

Ugh, I wouldn't want to do that to a motor in any
case, but no, you should not have to do that.

> Most of the turbo stuff is over 1000 hp for a 3
> liter engine the 2.1 liters are around 800..

The only trick here is that I am not sure who makes an
eddy-current dyno that can handle that kind of
power...  If you were interested in going that route,
I could put you in touch with people who would know,
though.

The biggest trick, as I am sure you know, is getting
the exhaust gases as soon as you can so you don't have
to wait for them to come out the tailpipe.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 20:29:11 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:29:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

> An inertial dyno is, for example, a dynojet??

Yes.

> What's an example of an eddy-current dyno??

Factory Pro, Mustang, Fuchs, Superflow are all eddy
current, with varying mass of the drum (the more
massive the drum, the more inertial factor you have to
"dial in".

> Well for someone who isn't fighting for tens of
> horsepower, let alone tenths of horsepower, is
> inertial dyno (dynojet) + wbo2 + competent tuner
good
> enough?? =)

*frown*  I'll have to give a qualified "that depends".
 the only thing that an inertial dyno can really
measure is a single load condition, beacuse you cannot
vary the load.  It also cannot be held on a load/speed
site for more than a small fraction of a second.

With carbs, I have found it to be a useful tool for
picking a main jet, since usually the roller is sized
to give a fair amount of load compared to maximum. 
For tuning part-throttle and cruise mixtures, I have
not found it very much help at all, and driving the
car around and using an O2 sensor on the road would
probably net superior results than trying on the dyno
first and then going driving for the "final".  Again,
YMMV, and different kinds of applications may find
different hardware is better suited; this is only MY
experience with motorcycle engines (50-200 bhp) on
dynos designed for those vehicles.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 20:37:04 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:37:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

> Can you just clairfy this. We are short on 'popular'
> engine tuners here in the UK, but perceived wisdom
> here is that 4 gas is only useable on an engine
> dyno as response time is too slow for a chassis
> dyno.

I'm not exactly sure why it would make a difference! 
:D  There's no reason you can't run a chassis dyno
indefinitely at a given load/speed site, assuming the
drivetrain and engine of the vehicle are up to it.

Again, the big trick is to get to your sample exhaust
gases as quickly as possible.  To get a solid reading
out of the tailpipe of a 1971 Pontiac would obviously
take a lot longer than to get a reading out of a 2002
Honda motorcycle.  I would recommend creating a port
in the exhaust after the collection point from the
header/manifold if you have a very long exhuast.  But
the analyzers have been improving steadily over recent
years as well.

> Have you found a way around this, or is your tuning
> limited to engine dyno work?

Actually, all the work I have every done with dynos
has been chassis dynos; again, though, they are
motorcycle chassis dynos.  My experience outside that
arena is extremely limited, and I cannot vouch for the
hardware being used in, say, automotive chassis dynos.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Tue Dec 17 20:44:32 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:44:32 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Most of the tuning I do is on pretty conventional water brake dyno and they are
computer controlled so will hold any programed speed until the engine breaks or
runs out of fuel LOL.. What is the analyzer of choice and where is there some
good reading on what it will do and what readings indicate what conditions? I.E.
timing retarded or over advanced etc.. other question I do a fair amount of
tuning on the road.. how big is it becomes the next question a well. Not an
argument for or against but size does matter.
Dave

Adam Wade wrote:
> 
> --- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
> 
> > How long does it take for this to stabilize and get
> > good data?
> 
> A lot depends on the length of your exhaust system.  I
> used it with motorcycles, and it took about a half a
> second for the exhaust gas readings to stabilize
> enough for a clean reading.
> 
> > I had always thought and possibly incorrectly that
> > they 4 gas analyzer was fairly slow in response
> > time.
> 
> Oh, it would be totally unusable on an inertial dyno.
> then again, so would any tailpipe gas reader,
> including an O2 sensor.  Most of the lag is the time
> the gases take to get to the end of the exhaust
> system.  If you had a port up near the cylinder head,
> that time would be cut dramatically.  There would
> still be more of a lag for a four-gas, but since an
> eddy current dyno steady-states the speed and load of
> the vehicle, you could wait indefinitely, as long as
> you had sufficient cooling air.
> 
> > Are they faster now so a 3 or 4 second pull will net
> > good data?
> 
> I can't speak for putting a probe down the tailpipe of
> a car, but I can get a load/speed site accurately
> analyzed on an eddy current dyno with a four-gas on a
> motorcycle in that time period, consistently, yes.
> 
> > Most of the stuff I work on is pretty highly
> > stressed so I am not so sure it would live through a
> > 20 second pull at all the points that need to be
> > programed.
> 
> Ugh, I wouldn't want to do that to a motor in any
> case, but no, you should not have to do that.
> 
> > Most of the turbo stuff is over 1000 hp for a 3
> > liter engine the 2.1 liters are around 800..
> 
> The only trick here is that I am not sure who makes an
> eddy-current dyno that can handle that kind of
> power...  If you were interested in going that route,
> I could put you in touch with people who would know,
> though.
> 
> The biggest trick, as I am sure you know, is getting
> the exhaust gases as soon as you can so you don't have
> to wait for them to come out the tailpipe.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From Tlsalt at aol.com  Tue Dec 17 21:00:06 2002
From: Tlsalt at aol.com (Tlsalt at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:00:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EGR and Valve phasing/lift
Message-ID: 

Perry Harrington wrote,

What I was thinking was making a custom head with 2 cylinders
in the exhaust and intake tracts that rotate to allow gases through.  You
essentially have a cylinder big enough to flow the full intake/exhaust flow
when turned to 90 degrees, but blocks off the flow and seals the combustion
chamber when at 0 degrees.  

Hello Perry,

This idea is very similar to the Cross rotary valve engines from the 1930's.  
They used a single rotary valve (your cylinder), on top of the combustion 
chamber, perpendicular to the bore axis. One end of the valve (cylinder) 
connected to intake, the other side connected to exhaust through a window in 
the top of the combustion chamber.  In other words, the intake and exhaust 
ports were in the center of the spinning rotary valve (at a half crank 
speed).  It was good for 195 psi bmep on 66 octane fuel, but sealing the 
spinning valve was the problem. Also where to put the spark plug ?  There are 
also rotating combustion chamber designs that have windows that align with 
the ports,but sealing, lubrication and friction are the issues. Yamaha also 
used a rotating valve to change the dimension of the exhaust port on their 
last two stroke road bike.

Paul Saltwick

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 21:19:21 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:19:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Nick Starai  wrote:

> Is this not what you are referring to?? If I am
> confused, maybe you can clear it up.

The problem I have seen with that module is that you
are dragging the huge inertial drum along with the
eddy current brake.  Assuming you have good software,
you can end up with the same results, but it takes a
LOT longer to spin up and stabilize with that huge
drum attached.  You cannot integrate a 4-gas analyzer
with Dynojet hardware; your' have to take separate
readings and record them separately, then correlate
them with a spreadsheet or something.

The eddy current dynos I used (which were in direct
competition with DJ) are cheaper than a better DJ with
the module you mentioned, take less time to spin up,
self-calibrate (DJs need to be returned to the
factory), and integrate the 4-gas analyzer to the
point that they only record data once the 4-gas has
stabilized, and all results are on one page, linked in
the database.

Not to get into an argument about dyno manufacturing. 
;)  But yes, you CAN add that module to a DJ, and be
able to map individual load/speed sites steady-state. 
It's just a lot more of a PITA to use a 4-gas to do
so, and costs more.  ;)

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From fj40brett at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 21:27:18 2002
From: fj40brett at yahoo.com (Brett Garland)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:27:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] newbie question
Message-ID: 

Thanks for the info!  The 27c32 uses a different
voltage, will this be alright?  What would be the best
of the three? the 2732?  those are the only ones I can
get locally...

-brett
--- Shannen Durphey  wrote:
> 2732
> 2732A
> 27C32
> 
> They're hard to find if you're pawing through junk
> piles.
> Shannen
> 
> Brett Garland wrote:
> > 
> > I should know this, but what is the type of prom
> for a
> > '7747 computer?  I cant find any markings that
> should
> > look familiar like 27c128 or something to that
> effect.
> >  I have one to program here and it has two legs
> that
> > were broken.  I plan on loading it with a bin from
> the
> > FTP site, but now I need a new prom.
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > -Brett
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
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> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> > 
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> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Tue Dec 17 21:30:08 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:30:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] newbie question
Message-ID: 


check out www.unicornelectronics they have 27c32b's a much better 12volt 
chip. they cost about 3 buck a piece but ive ereased and reprogrammed my 
stock of 10 about 15x or so each. these are new chips that have been sitting 
around.

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 21:33:36 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:33:36 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:

> Most of the tuning I do is on pretty conventional
> water brake dyno and they are computer controlled so
> will hold any programed speed until the engine
> breaks or runs out of fuel LOL..

A water brake dyno should be controllable in much the
same way an eddy current dyno is...  I would think,
based on my understanding, that a water brake would be
a better choice for larger, higher-horsepower
machines, and eddy current for the opposite (just in
terms of space required, ease of construction, power
handled, etc.).

> What is the analyzer of choice

You know, I am not entirely certain where the
analyzers are sourced from (4- or 5-gas are available
from the manufacturer for which I used to work, but a
4-gas is used by them for their development work), but
I could probably find out if you wanted one, or they
could supply one (I'm not sure I could definitely pry
the info out of them!  :D  ).

> and where is there some good reading on what it will
> do and what readings indicate what conditions? I.E.
> timing retarded or over advanced etc..

Actually, I've never seen it documented.  :(  One
thing I can tell you is that there will be variations
in what "ideal" is based on cam profile, tract
lengths, combustion chamber shape, atomization, and on
and on...  My experience has been that there are
TRENDS you can see in how things change based on
changes you make, so you can tell what direction you
are going in, and once you play around a little bit
and find "ideal" gas output for a given engine, then
you can use that information as a target on other
load/speed sites.  It won't be exact on every
load/speed site, of course, but will get you very
close...  Much like a WBO2 sensor will, but it will
allow you to see things like even fueling of
multi-cylinder engines and ignition timing, as well as
straight mixture.  Again, thus is my own experience,
and not etched in stone for all applications.

I can give you a few people to talk to if you want to
get some ideas about trenads and what to look for in
terms of diagnosing particular issues.  I *wish* they
would write it all down.  Once I am done with the
three books I have in the pipeline, I may sit down
with them and ghost-write a book on that subject
(although beyond this mailing list, I'm not sure how
many sales I could expect!  ;)

> other question I do a fair amount of tuning on the
> road.. how big is it becomes the next question a
> well. Not an argument for or against but size does
> matter.

How big is the analyzer?  The acutal unit is smaller
than a micro-ATX board in a matching case.  There are
a few pumps and so forth, filters, that would make a
package that could comfortably sit about a foot tall
in the passenger seat of a standard car.  For best
effect, you'd need to route the probe through a hole
in the firewall and get exhaust gas readings right
after the manifold (via an exhaust port).

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From shurvinton at orange.net  Tue Dec 17 22:15:25 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 19:15:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Wade" 
>
> I'm not exactly sure why it would make a difference!
> :D  There's no reason you can't run a chassis dyno
> indefinitely at a given load/speed site, assuming the
> drivetrain and engine of the vehicle are up to it.

The problem found here is that you cannot keep a constant coolant temp on
the engine on a chassis dyno  Engine dynos have that lovely big water tank.
Even with a big fan you only have about 30 seconds at a load point before
you have to cool off.

They must have made huge strides with the 4-gas kit.

Bill


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From legend88 at telusplanet.net  Tue Dec 17 22:30:42 2002
From: legend88 at telusplanet.net (legend88 at telusplanet.net)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 19:30:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] HELP
Message-ID: 

Quoting diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org:

> Send Diy_efi mailing list submissions to
> 	diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> 
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> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Diy_efi digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Adam Wade)
>    2. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Erik Jacobs)
>    3. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Dave Dahlgren)
>    4. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Djfreggens at aol.com)
>    5. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Adam Wade)
>    6. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (William Shurvinton)
>    7. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Erik Jacobs)
>    8. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Adam Wade)
>    9. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Adam Wade)
>   10. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Adam Wade)
>   11. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Dave Dahlgren)
>   12. EGR and Valve phasing/lift (Tlsalt at aol.com)
>   13. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Adam Wade)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:54:29 -0800 (PST)
> From: Adam Wade 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> --- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
> 
> > Over the last 20 years I have not found this to be
> > true at all.
> 
> ...
> 
> > The NTK wide band will read richer with the same
> > amount of fuel and if timing is advanced to optimal
> > it indicates leaner to the point I am tempted to add
> > more fuel.
> 
> Which is why I don't use an O2 sensor of any sort for
> tuning on a dyno.  While it is a fine toold for what
> it is, it cannot give nearly the depth of data that a
> four-gas analyzer can.  It won't indicate rich or lean
> if the timing is not optimal.  In fact, with training
> in what to look for, it is possible to see when a
> single cylinder is rich or lean from the rest
> (although you cannot tell which one unless you have
> probe ports in each runner of the exhaust manifold.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> From: "Erik Jacobs" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 14:55:04 -0500
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> > Which is why I don't use an O2 sensor of any sort for
> > tuning on a dyno.  While it is a fine toold for what
> > it is, it cannot give nearly the depth of data that a
> > four-gas analyzer can.  It won't indicate rich or lean
> > if the timing is not optimal.  In fact, with training
> > in what to look for, it is possible to see when a
> > single cylinder is rich or lean from the rest
> > (although you cannot tell which one unless you have
> > probe ports in each runner of the exhaust manifold.
> 
> a) how much is a four gas analyzer?
> b) is they a diy_fga list or something?
> c) why do most tuning places seem to use wbo2 over fga?  price? ease of
> use??
> 
> Can't you figure out if timing is optimal by EGT to a certain degree? (i
> havent been following the thread)
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:21:00 -0500
> From: Dave Dahlgren 
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> How long does it take for this to stabilize and get good data? I had always
> thought and possibly incorrectly that they 4 gas analyzer was fairly slow
> in
> response time. Are they faster now so a 3 or 4 second pull will net good
> data?
> Most of the stuff I work on is pretty highly stressed so I am not so sure
> it
> would live through a 20 second pull at all the points that need to be
> programed.
> Most of the turbo stuff is over 1000 hp for a 3 liter engine the 2.1 liters
> are
> around 800..
> Dave
> 
> Adam Wade wrote:
> 
> > > The NTK wide band will read richer with the same
> > > amount of fuel and if timing is advanced to optimal
> > > it indicates leaner to the point I am tempted to add
> > > more fuel.
> > 
> > Which is why I don't use an O2 sensor of any sort for
> > tuning on a dyno.  While it is a fine toold for what
> > it is, it cannot give nearly the depth of data that a
> > four-gas analyzer can.  It won't indicate rich or lean
> > if the timing is not optimal.  In fact, with training
> > in what to look for, it is possible to see when a
> > single cylinder is rich or lean from the rest
> > (although you cannot tell which one unless you have
> > probe ports in each runner of the exhaust manifold.
> > 
> > =====
> > | Adam Wade
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 4
> From: Djfreggens at aol.com
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:16:06 EST
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> 
timing is optimal when max TQ at each load point and rpm has been
> achieved. 
> now this will for sure cuase emisions issues(high NOX2). then use EGR to 
> bring it under control. my 2 cents anyways. aside form all of that there is
> 
> still the issue of throttle repsonse it may want more or less depends on the
> 
> effieceny of the combustion chamber, injector position, and enrichment 
> avialble and the time it takes for it to reach the combustion chamber. as for
> 
> fueling a WB02 has been used many times and with good results i say it 
> depends on the person veiwing the  data. me when i can i get use of a 5gas 
> anaylizer. cant beat it hands down but man that thing is exspsnsive. 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:20:49 -0800 (PST)
> From: Adam Wade 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> --- Erik Jacobs  wrote:
> 
> > a) how much is a four gas analyzer?
> 
> A tremendous amount of money.  The O2 sensor is truly
> more than enough for most people.
> 
> > b) is they a diy_fga list or something?
> 
> Well, if you want to put it that way, this isn't the
> diy_wb list, either.  I was simply replying to a
> comment that the WBO2 was "fooled" into seeing rich or
> lean based on changes in ignition timing.
> 
> > c) why do most tuning places seem to use wbo2 over
> > fga?
> 
> Couldn't tell you.  I can tell you that in my
> experience, the ones that use inertial dynos and O2
> sensors for highly-responsive motors always get worse
> results than places that use eddy current dynos and
> four-gas analyzers (having worked with and for both at
> the racetrack, and retuned bikes going both
> directions).
> 
> > price? ease of use??
> 
> An eddy current with a four-gas is as easy to use as
> an inertial with an O2 sensor, so price may be a
> factor, although the price difference is pretty small
> as a ratio to the overall investment in hardware.
> 
> > Can't you figure out if timing is optimal by EGT to
> > a certain degree? (i havent been following the
> > thread)
> 
> Not as far as I have been able to determine.  In fact,
> inertial dynos don't have the precision to see small
> changes in timing or fueling, but lap times tell no
> lies...  And they match the results I've gotten with
> an eddy current and a four-gas.
> 
> In any case, I was merely pointing out that with a
> four-gas, you can tune for optimal timing based on
> exhaust gases, and all you need to do is hold the
> vehicle steady-state at a given load to do so.  An
> eddy current dyno happens to be the easiest way I have
> found to obtain that.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 6
> From: "William Shurvinton" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 20:26:54 -0000
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> Can you just clairfy this. We are short on 'popular' engine tuners here in
> the UK, but perceived wisdom here is that 4 gas is only useable on an
> engine
> dyno as response time is too slow for a chassis dyno.
> 
> Have you found a way around this, or is your tuning limited to engine dyno
> work?
> 
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Wade" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 7:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> 
> 
> > --- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
> >
> > > Over the last 20 years I have not found this to be
> > > true at all.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > > The NTK wide band will read richer with the same
> > > amount of fuel and if timing is advanced to optimal
> > > it indicates leaner to the point I am tempted to add
> > > more fuel.
> >
> > Which is why I don't use an O2 sensor of any sort for
> > tuning on a dyno.  While it is a fine toold for what
> > it is, it cannot give nearly the depth of data that a
> > four-gas analyzer can.  I
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 7
> From: "Erik Jacobs" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:24:13 -0500
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> > Not as far as I have been able to determine.  In fact,
> > inertial dynos don't have the precision to see small
> > changes in timing or fueling, but lap times tell no
> > lies...  And they match the results I've gotten with
> > an eddy current and a four-gas.
> 
> An inertial dyno is, for example, a dynojet??
> 
> What's an example of an eddy-current dyno??
> 
> > In any case, I was merely pointing out that with a
> > four-gas, you can tune for optimal timing based on
> > exhaust gases, and all you need to do is hold the
> > vehicle steady-state at a given load to do so.  An
> > eddy current dyno happens to be the easiest way I have
> > found to obtain that.
> 
> Well for someone who isn't fighting for tens of horsepower, let alone
> tenths
> of horsepower, is inertial dyno (dynojet) + wbo2 + competent tuner good
> enough?? =)
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:30:17 -0800 (PST)
> From: Adam Wade 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> --- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
> 
> > How long does it take for this to stabilize and get
> > good data?
> 
> A lot depends on the length of your exhaust system.  I
> used it with motorcycles, and it took about a half a
> second for the exhaust gas readings to stabilize
> enough for a clean reading.
> 
> > I had always thought and possibly incorrectly that
> > they 4 gas analyzer was fairly slow in response
> > time.
> 
> Oh, it would be totally unusable on an inertial dyno. 
> then again, so would any tailpipe gas reader,
> including an O2 sensor.  Most of the lag is the time
> the gases take to get to the end of the exhaust
> system.  If you had a port up near the cylinder head,
> that time would be cut dramatically.  There would
> still be more of a lag for a four-gas, but since an
> eddy current dyno steady-states the speed and load of
> the vehicle, you could wait indefinitely, as long as
> you had sufficient cooling air.
> 
> > Are they faster now so a 3 or 4 second pull will net
> > good data?
> 
> I can't speak for putting a probe down the tailpipe of
> a car, but I can get a load/speed site accurately
> analyzed on an eddy current dyno with a four-gas on a
> motorcycle in that time period, consistently, yes.
> 
> > Most of the stuff I work on is pretty highly
> > stressed so I am not so sure it would live through a
> > 20 second pull at all the points that need to be
> > programed.
> 
> Ugh, I wouldn't want to do that to a motor in any
> case, but no, you should not have to do that.
> 
> > Most of the turbo stuff is over 1000 hp for a 3
> > liter engine the 2.1 liters are around 800..
> 
> The only trick here is that I am not sure who makes an
> eddy-current dyno that can handle that kind of
> power...  If you were interested in going that route,
> I could put you in touch with people who would know,
> though.
> 
> The biggest trick, as I am sure you know, is getting
> the exhaust gases as soon as you can so you don't have
> to wait for them to come out the tailpipe.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:35:38 -0800 (PST)
> From: Adam Wade 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> --- Erik Jacobs  wrote:
> 
> > An inertial dyno is, for example, a dynojet??
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > What's an example of an eddy-current dyno??
> 
> Factory Pro, Mustang, Fuchs, Superflow are all eddy
> current, with varying mass of the drum (the more
> massive the drum, the more inertial factor you have to
> "dial in".
> 
> > Well for someone who isn't fighting for tens of
> > horsepower, let alone tenths of horsepower, is
> > inertial dyno (dynojet) + wbo2 + competent tuner
> good
> > enough?? =)
> 
> *frown*  I'll have to give a qualified "that depends".
>  the only thing that an inertial dyno can really
> measure is a single load condition, beacuse you cannot
> vary the load.  It also cannot be held on a load/speed
> site for more than a small fraction of a second.
> 
> With carbs, I have found it to be a useful tool for
> picking a main jet, since usually the roller is sized
> to give a fair amount of load compared to maximum. 
> For tuning part-throttle and cruise mixtures, I have
> not found it very much help at all, and driving the
> car around and using an O2 sensor on the road would
> probably net superior results than trying on the dyno
> first and then going driving for the "final".  Again,
> YMMV, and different kinds of applications may find
> different hardware is better suited; this is only MY
> experience with motorcycle engines (50-200 bhp) on
> dynos designed for those vehicles.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:40:59 -0800 (PST)
> From: Adam Wade 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> --- William Shurvinton  wrote:
> 
> > Can you just clairfy this. We are short on 'popular'
> > engine tuners here in the UK, but perceived wisdom
> > here is that 4 gas is only useable on an engine
> > dyno as response time is too slow for a chassis
> > dyno.
> 
> I'm not exactly sure why it would make a difference! 
> :D  There's no reason you can't run a chassis dyno
> indefinitely at a given load/speed site, assuming the
> drivetrain and engine of the vehicle are up to it.
> 
> Again, the big trick is to get to your sample exhaust
> gases as quickly as possible.  To get a solid reading
> out of the tailpipe of a 1971 Pontiac would obviously
> take a lot longer than to get a reading out of a 2002
> Honda motorcycle.  I would recommend creating a port
> in the exhaust after the collection point from the
> header/manifold if you have a very long exhuast.  But
> the analyzers have been improving steadily over recent
> years as well.
> 
> > Have you found a way around this, or is your tuning
> > limited to engine dyno work?
> 
> Actually, all the work I have every done with dynos
> has been chassis dynos; again, though, they are
> motorcycle chassis dynos.  My experience outside that
> arena is extremely limited, and I cannot vouch for the
> hardware being used in, say, automotive chassis dynos.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:03:03 -0500
> From: Dave Dahlgren 
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> Most of the tuning I do is on pretty conventional water brake dyno and they
> are
> computer controlled so will hold any programed speed until the engine breaks
> or
> runs out of fuel LOL.. What is the analyzer of choice and where is there
> some
> good reading on what it will do and what readings indicate what conditions?
> I.E.
> timing retarded or over advanced etc.. other question I do a fair amount of
> tuning on the road.. how big is it becomes the next question a well. Not an
> argument for or against but size does matter.
> Dave
> 
> Adam Wade wrote:
> > 
> > --- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
> > 
> > > How long does it take for this to stabilize and get
> > > good data?
> > 
> > A lot depends on the length of your exhaust system.  I
> > used it with motorcycles, and it took about a half a
> > second for the exhaust gas readings to stabilize
> > enough for a clean reading.
> > 
> > > I had always thought and possibly incorrectly that
> > > they 4 gas analyzer was fairly slow in response
> > > time.
> > 
> > Oh, it would be totally unusable on an inertial dyno.
> > then again, so would any tailpipe gas reader,
> > including an O2 sensor.  Most of the lag is the time
> > the gases take to get to the end of the exhaust
> > system.  If you had a port up near the cylinder head,
> > that time would be cut dramatically.  There would
> > still be more of a lag for a four-gas, but since an
> > eddy current dyno steady-states the speed and load of
> > the vehicle, you could wait indefinitely, as long as
> > you had sufficient cooling air.
> > 
> > > Are they faster now so a 3 or 4 second pull will net
> > > good data?
> > 
> > I can't speak for putting a probe down the tailpipe of
> > a car, but I can get a load/speed site accurately
> > analyzed on an eddy current dyno with a four-gas on a
> > motorcycle in that time period, consistently, yes.
> > 
> > > Most of the stuff I work on is pretty highly
> > > stressed so I am not so sure it would live through a
> > > 20 second pull at all the points that need to be
> > > programed.
> > 
> > Ugh, I wouldn't want to do that to a motor in any
> > case, but no, you should not have to do that.
> > 
> > > Most of the turbo stuff is over 1000 hp for a 3
> > > liter engine the 2.1 liters are around 800..
> > 
> > The only trick here is that I am not sure who makes an
> > eddy-current dyno that can handle that kind of
> > power...  If you were interested in going that route,
> > I could put you in touch with people who would know,
> > though.
> > 
> > The biggest trick, as I am sure you know, is getting
> > the exhaust gases as soon as you can so you don't have
> > to wait for them to come out the tailpipe.
> > 
> > =====
> > | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> > |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> > |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> > |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> > |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> > |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 12
> From: Tlsalt at aol.com
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:06:40 EST
> Subject: [Diy_efi] EGR and Valve phasing/lift
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> Perry Harrington wrote,
> 
> What I was thinking was making a custom head with 2 cylinders
> in the exhaust and intake tracts that rotate to allow gases through.  You
> essentially have a cylinder big enough to flow the full intake/exhaust flow
> when turned to 90 degrees, but blocks off the flow and seals the combustion
> chamber when at 0 degrees.  
> 
> Hello Perry,
> 
> This idea is very similar to the Cross rotary valve engines from the 1930's. 
> 
> They used a single rotary valve (your cylinder), on top of the combustion 
> chamber, perpendicular to the bore axis. One end of the valve (cylinder) 
> connected to intake, the other side connected to exhaust through a window in
> 
> the top of the combustion chamber.  In other words, the intake and exhaust 
> ports were in the center of the spinning rotary valve (at a half crank 
> speed).  It was good for 195 psi bmep on 66 octane fuel, but sealing the 
> spinning valve was the problem. Also where to put the spark plug ?  There are
> 
> also rotating combustion chamber designs that have windows that align with 
> the ports,but sealing, lubrication and friction are the issues. Yamaha also
> 
> used a rotating valve to change the dimension of the exhaust port on their 
> last two stroke road bike.
> 
> Paul Saltwick
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 13:18:50 -0800 (PST)
> From: Adam Wade 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> --- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
> 
> > Most of the tuning I do is on pretty conventional
> > water brake dyno and they are computer controlled so
> > will hold any programed speed until the engine
> > breaks or runs out of fuel LOL..
> 
> A water brake dyno should be controllable in much the
> same way an eddy current dyno is...  I would think,
> based on my understanding, that a water brake would be
> a better choice for larger, higher-horsepower
> machines, and eddy current for the opposite (just in
> terms of space required, ease of construction, power
> handled, etc.).
> 
> > What is the analyzer of choice
> 
> You know, I am not entirely certain where the
> analyzers are sourced from (4- or 5-gas are available
> from the manufacturer for which I used to work, but a
> 4-gas is used by them for their development work), but
> I could probably find out if you wanted one, or they
> could supply one (I'm not sure I could definitely pry
> the info out of them!  :D  ).
> 
> > and where is there some good reading on what it will
> > do and what readings indicate what conditions? I.E.
> > timing retarded or over advanced etc..
> 
> Actually, I've never seen it documented.  :(  One
> thing I can tell you is that there will be variations
> in what "ideal" is based on cam profile, tract
> lengths, combustion chamber shape, atomization, and on
> and on...  My experience has been that there are
> TRENDS you can see in how things change based on
> changes you make, so you can tell what direction you
> are going in, and once you play around a little bit
> and find "ideal" gas output for a given engine, then
> you can use that information as a target on other
> load/speed sites.  It won't be exact on every
> load/speed site, of course, but will get you very
> close...  Much like a WBO2 sensor will, but it will
> allow you to see things like even fueling of
> multi-cylinder engines and ignition timing, as well as
> straight mixture.  Again, thus is my own experience,
> and not etched in stone for all applications.
> 
> I can give you a few people to talk to if you want to
> get some ideas about trenads and what to look for in
> terms of diagnosing particular issues.  I *wish* they
> would write it all down.  Once I am done with the
> three books I have in the pipeline, I may sit down
> with them and ghost-write a book on that subject
> (although beyond this mailing list, I'm not sure how
> many sales I could expect!  ;)
> 
> > other question I do a fair amount of tuning on the
> > road.. how big is it becomes the next question a
> > well. Not an argument for or against but size does
> > matter.
> 
> How big is the analyzer?  The acutal unit is smaller
> than a micro-ATX board in a matching case.  There are
> a few pumps and so forth, filters, that would make a
> package that could comfortably sit about a foot tall
> in the passenger seat of a standard car.  For best
> effect, you'd need to route the probe through a hole
> in the firewall and get exhaust gas readings right
> after the manifold (via an exhaust port).
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
> End of Diy_efi Digest
> 





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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 22:58:38 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 19:58:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

> The problem found here is that you cannot keep a
> constant coolant temp on the engine on a chassis
> dyno

A) Why not?
B) Isn't it better, if you are tuning for the real
world, to be able to discover any problems with
cooling on the machine itself, and if there are none,
to tune the engine for the conditions it will actually
see when installed in a vehicle?

> Even with a big fan you only have about 30 seconds
> at a load point before you have to cool off.

I'm not sure I understand that claim.  Would that not
also mean that you could only drive the vehicle for 30
seconds before having to shut it off?  Obviously that
is not the case.

> They must have made huge strides with the 4-gas kit.

I believe there are small improvements being made on a
constant basis, but the last 5 years or so has seen
substantial improvement, IME.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From true at ItsYourDomain.com  Tue Dec 17 23:07:28 2002
From: true at ItsYourDomain.com (Nick Starai)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 20:07:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 



> *frown*  I'll have to give a qualified "that depends".
>  the only thing that an inertial dyno can really
> measure is a single load condition, beacuse you cannot
> vary the load.  It also cannot be held on a load/speed
> site for more than a small fraction of a second.

I believe there is an additional module for Dynojets that allow steady
state load control as you described only eddy-current can do.

http://www.dynojet.com/aupgrades.shtml

"DYNOTRAC LOAD CONTROL OPTION (model 248 only)
This option allows steady state load testing at a preset RPM, speed or
percentage of brake pressure."

Is this not what you are referring to?? If I am confused, maybe you can
clear it up. Thanks.

Nick Starai


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From mos at sydney.net  Tue Dec 17 23:21:47 2002
From: mos at sydney.net (Mos)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 20:21:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Adam,

The point is that in intended application, unless you're building a
burnout machine, your vehicle generally sees plenty of airflow through the
radiator - something hard to duplicate with a fan.

Mos.

-- 
84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.

On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, Adam Wade wrote:

> --- William Shurvinton  wrote:
>
> > The problem found here is that you cannot keep a
> > constant coolant temp on the engine on a chassis
> > dyno
>
> A) Why not?
> B) Isn't it better, if you are tuning for the real
> world, to be able to discover any problems with
> cooling on the machine itself, and if there are none,
> to tune the engine for the conditions it will actually
> see when installed in a vehicle?
>
> > Even with a big fan you only have about 30 seconds
> > at a load point before you have to cool off.
>
> I'm not sure I understand that claim.  Would that not
> also mean that you could only drive the vehicle for 30
> seconds before having to shut it off?  Obviously that
> is not the case.
>
> > They must have made huge strides with the 4-gas kit.
>
> I believe there are small improvements being made on a
> constant basis, but the last 5 years or so has seen
> substantial improvement, IME.


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From schaffer at vkma.tu-graz.ac.at  Tue Dec 17 23:25:00 2002
From: schaffer at vkma.tu-graz.ac.at (Schaffer Klaus Maria)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 20:25:00 -0300
Subject: AW: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Geddes, Brian J [mailto:brian.j.geddes at intel.com]
> Gesendet: Montag, 16. Dezember 2002 19:11
> An: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Betreff: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>=20
> Any other advice on this?  If a dyno is not readily available=20
> (I have an all-wheel drive car), could one infer a increase=20
> in torque from a decrease in EGTs? =20
>=20
> > The DIY way is to advance until torque drops, or until it pings,
> > whichever is first.  If it pings first, drop it back a notch, or use
> > higher octane.
> >=20

The way which professionals are going:

An engine cycle has his highest efficiency (best torque) when the timing =
of MBF50% (time when 50% of the fuel is burnt) is set to 8deg-ATDC. =
Sounds easy, you only need a device that tells you when 50% of the fuel =
is burnt ;-)

The only way to get the information, is to calculate the heat release =
rate. Therefor you need at least information about the incylinder =
pressure. You need a incylinder pressure sensor and a trigger device =
(resolution of 0.5deg works good enough). A good incylinder pressure =
transducer costs ~$2000,-, bad one ~$1000,-. Low cost sensors are in =
development since years, but not available today. Equations for =
calculating the heat release rate can be found in the Heywood book and =
in many SAE-papers.

There are some indicating system on the market that will do this for =
you. Best will come from a company located at my hometown www.avl.com =
;-). But don't ask for prices or better: before you get a price: fasten =
your seat belts.

Further a few words to timing advance. Engines of newer conception (4V, =
central spark plug, CR~11) will have at loads lower than 50-70% their =
best advance before "pinging". At full load, knock limit is always the =
best.

		--- so long ---, klaus.

--=20
************************************************************
 dipl. ing. klaus maria schaffer
 Institute of Internal Combustion Engines & Thermodynamics
 University of Technology, Graz - Austria
 A-8010 GRAZ, Kopernikusgasse 24/II
------------------------------------------------------------=20
 email: schaffer at vkma.tu-graz.ac.at
 phone: +43-316-873-7724
 fax:   +43-316-873-7712
************************************************************
=20

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From Adnan.Merchant at TycoHealthcare.com  Tue Dec 17 23:35:20 2002
From: Adnan.Merchant at TycoHealthcare.com (Merchant, Adnan)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 20:35:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Coil igniter question(s)
Message-ID: 

Hi,

For us DIY types, we must question any and all levels of non-integration,
right ?  :-)

I have observed that many of the commercial aftermarket EFI systems offer
igniter modules.   I looked under the hood of my wife's '96 Subaru and sure
enough, there was a two-channel igniter feeding the twin coil pack.   Coils
are available with and without built-in igniters.

Being new to all this, I have to ask a rather basic question - if dwell is
controlled by the ECU, is the igniter nothing more than a switch?   Does it
actively manage coil charging ala the MC3334 ignition controller chip (by
the way, is there a similar device available?).   Perhaps this is done for
reliability purposes in that igniters fail reasonably often, making it
painful to repair the ECU.

Is there a circuit available to control coil charge time without resorting
to angle-time ECU control?   Perhaps angle-time is the best way to handle
this after determining coil charge time?

Thanks,
Adnan


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 17 23:49:12 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 20:49:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Mos  wrote:

> The point is that in intended application, unless
> you're building a burnout machine, your vehicle
> generally sees plenty of airflow through the
> radiator - something hard to duplicate with a fan.

I disagree on the difficulty with airflow via a fan. 
the dynos I worked on primarily were available with
fan packages up to being able to deliver air across
the entire frontal area of a racing motorcycle
radiator (about the same as a large V8 from the 70s)
at 70 mph actual airspeed.  Although I may be wrong on
this, I believe that should be more than sufficient
for any automotive or motorcycle application, although
it might require some extra fans of that capacity if
you had a very large intercooler.

Ultimately, the bottom line is that a dyno can only go
so far in terms of tuning a vehicle for best behavior
(whatever your paramaters for "best behavior" are) by
tweaking it in the real world.  Dynos are us trying to
make it easier for us to tune with the elast amount of work/discomfort.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From shurvinton at orange.net  Wed Dec 18 00:33:42 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:33:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs


> --- William Shurvinton  wrote:
>
> > The problem found here is that you cannot keep a
> > constant coolant temp on the engine on a chassis
> > dyno
>
> A) Why not?

Car overheats. Even with the fan. For whatever reason ( and I haven't
investigated it) you cannot shift the KW when stationary. Have suspicions
but no proof. If your dyno was in a wind tunnel you might get away with it
as the pressure zones on the car would be the same.

>
> > Even with a big fan you only have about 30 seconds
> > at a load point before you have to cool off.
>
> I'm not sure I understand that claim.  Would that not
> also mean that you could only drive the vehicle for 30
> seconds before having to shut it off?  Obviously that
> is not the case.

See answer to A) I have limited dyno experience, but do know someone who has
pulled over 3000 engines, which is where the 30 seconds comes from.


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 00:48:11 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:48:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

> Car overheats. Even with the fan. For whatever
> reason ( and I haven't investigated it) you cannot
> shift the KW when stationary.

Well, once again, I've not worked with cars.  However,
I can't imagine it being substantially more difficult
than with portbikes putting out 190+ BHP with
radiators half the size of that of a Honda Civic.  I
know it works well with bikes, even extremely powerful
sportbikes (based on both coolant temperature sensors
and infrared temperature checking of endine components
and coolant hoses).

Having a very large (or better, several very large)
exhaust fans is critical, as is a good source of cool
air.  Building a good dyno room that is useful, when
talking about a chassis dyno, is not a trivial feat.

> If your dyno was in a wind tunnel you might get away
> with it as the pressure zones on the car would be
> the same.

Given a modern car, there may well be something to
using low pressure under the car to extract hot air
that has traveled through the radiator.  That WOULD be
extremely hard to duplicate in a dyno room, I will
agree.

> See answer to A) I have limited dyno experience, but
> do know someone who has pulled over 3000 engines,
> which is where the 30 seconds comes from.

And when it comes to bikes, I've seen bikes run at
load for over a minute at a time, with about a
five-second cycle time to the next pull.  And that was
a two-stroke with near-ideal ignition advance and
jetted for best power (read: as lean as safely
possible).

I believe we're seeing differences between cars and
bikes, as well as some practical limitations of
affordable dyno room design.  I'm sure it would be
possible to make his dyno room safe for longer
operation (not that it should be necessary,
practically), but it might not be cost-effective for
the results obtained.

I would be interested in gathering more data about the
requirements of cooling automobiles on chassis dynos.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Wed Dec 18 00:49:53 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:49:53 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

> The point is that in intended application, unless you're building a
> burnout machine, your vehicle generally sees plenty of airflow through the
> radiator - something hard to duplicate with a fan.

This isn't entirely true.  If you are using a simple propeller fan then yes,
you probably aren't going to duplicate actual radiator airflow.  However a
centrifugal fan with a wide enough opening should be capable of delivering
pretty similar to real-world airflow at speed.  An ingenious person might
even be able to build a fan, or modify an existing one, to provide the
appropriate speed of airflow based on the vehicle's estimated speed from the
drive wheels, but that's fancy schmancy now, isn't it? :)


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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Wed Dec 18 00:51:35 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:51:35 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

> *frown*  I'll have to give a qualified "that depends".
>  the only thing that an inertial dyno can really
> measure is a single load condition, beacuse you cannot
> vary the load.  It also cannot be held on a load/speed
> site for more than a small fraction of a second.

Well, it just seems that dynojet type duno is the most popular out there
(there is a recent addition to the intertial dyno fambly where you kinda put
the car in these weird electromagnetic blocks or something and it can do 4
wheels... but I don't remember what it's called or who makes it.

> With carbs, I have found it to be a useful tool for
> picking a main jet, since usually the roller is sized
> to give a fair amount of load compared to maximum.
> For tuning part-throttle and cruise mixtures, I have
> not found it very much help at all, and driving the
> car around and using an O2 sensor on the road would
> probably net superior results than trying on the dyno
> first and then going driving for the "final".  Again,
> YMMV, and different kinds of applications may find
> different hardware is better suited; this is only MY
> experience with motorcycle engines (50-200 bhp) on
> dynos designed for those vehicles.

Well I'll be building a 4cyl turbocharged fuel injected auto engine looking
for 300 or so rwhp (as a dynojet would estimate)... I mean it'd be nice to
get the best tuning available, but that will probably not be in my budget =)


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From mos at sydney.net  Wed Dec 18 01:07:48 2002
From: mos at sydney.net (Mos)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:07:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Erik,

I'm talking about a centrifugal fan that's placed in front of the car for
that very purpose. The problem doesn't seem to be getting something to
blow hard enough, but actually getting that air through the radiator.
Perhaps if if one had ducting directly from the fan to the radiator, the
air would have no other place to go.

As mentioned in another post, dyno rooms with no real exhaust fans (you'd
need something with at least the same amount of airflow as the supply fan,
right?) wont promote movement of air out of the engine bay.

I'm intrigued as to what sort of temps one gets on a dyno - has anyone
logged a heap of temp probes in various conditions?

Mos.

-- 
84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.

On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, Erik Jacobs wrote:

> This isn't entirely true.  If you are using a simple propeller fan then yes,
> you probably aren't going to duplicate actual radiator airflow.  However a
> centrifugal fan with a wide enough opening should be capable of delivering
> pretty similar to real-world airflow at speed.  An ingenious person might
> even be able to build a fan, or modify an existing one, to provide the
> appropriate speed of airflow based on the vehicle's estimated speed from the
> drive wheels, but that's fancy schmancy now, isn't it? :)



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From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Dec 18 01:18:31 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:18:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Within a limited torque range, some models of Dynojet can be used with
rpm/mph based loading.  I've done a few cals using this route.

Using the dynojet to tune WOT blasts gives reasonable results.  Using it to
tune part throttle cruise conditions requires using the brake, or constant
manipulation of the throttle and roller speed.  Tricky, but it can be done.

Using a braking type dyno to tune a car for WOT can produce misleading
results.  A lightweight car with a high power to weight ratio would
typically never see the same load and duration that can be applied with a
brake type dyno.  Running up to a specific rpm and holding that rpm while
fuel and spark are tuned in will tend to heat parts more than they would be
heated in "normal" operation.  The consequences can be more fuel/ less
spark than optimal get dialed into the final tune.  Power may be down, fuel
consumption may be up, or both can occur.  The inertial loads alone provide
more than enough resistance to provide an acceptable street and competition
tune for these vehicles.  

To think that you can get a tune right "to the gnat's butt" on _any_ type
of dyno is to assume that you will be running under the same conditions
always.  No matter how an engine is tuned, someone has to check occasionaly
for signs that things aren't right.  The equipment is to get things closer,
sooner.

A wide band sensor mounted in the tailpipe can be used to provide a
successful tune, just like reading plugs can be used to provide a
successful tune.  To say that the length of the exhaust makes the sensor's
readings useless only implies that the tuner doesn't know what to do with
them.  It only takes a little practice making changes and watching results
to get a feel for how to use the results.

For many, many street cars, WB + inertial dyno + competent tuner is very
satisfactory.  The issue is finding a competent tuner.

Shannen


Adam Wade wrote:

> --- Erik Jacobs  wrote:
> 
> > An inertial dyno is, for example, a dynojet??
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > What's an example of an eddy-current dyno??
> 
> Factory Pro, Mustang, Fuchs, Superflow are all eddy
> current, with varying mass of the drum (the more
> massive the drum, the more inertial factor you have to
> "dial in".
> 
> > Well for someone who isn't fighting for tens of
> > horsepower, let alone tenths of horsepower, is
> > inertial dyno (dynojet) + wbo2 + competent tuner
> good
> > enough?? =)
> 
> *frown*  I'll have to give a qualified "that depends".
>  the only thing that an inertial dyno can really
> measure is a single load condition, beacuse you cannot
> vary the load.  It also cannot be held on a load/speed
> site for more than a small fraction of a second.
> 
> With carbs, I have found it to be a useful tool for
> picking a main jet, since usually the roller is sized
> to give a fair amount of load compared to maximum. 
> For tuning part-throttle and cruise mixtures, I have
> not found it very much help at all, and driving the
> car around and using an O2 sensor on the road would
> probably net superior results than trying on the dyno
> first and then going driving for the "final".  Again,
> YMMV, and different kinds of applications may find
> different hardware is better suited; this is only MY
> experience with motorcycle engines (50-200 bhp) on
> dynos designed for those vehicles.
>

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From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Dec 18 01:20:04 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:20:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] newbie question
Message-ID: 



Brett Garland wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the info!  The 27c32 uses a different
> voltage, will this be alright? 

It's a different programming voltage, not "operating" voltage.  It will be
alright if your programmer supports it.

> What would be the best
> of the three? the 2732?  those are the only ones I can
> get locally...
Sounds like you've answered your own question.
Shannen


> 
> -brett
> --- Shannen Durphey  wrote:
> > 2732
> > 2732A
> > 27C32
> >
> > They're hard to find if you're pawing through junk
> > piles.
> > Shannen
> >
> > Brett Garland wrote:
> > >
> > > I should know this, but what is the type of prom
> > for a
> > > '7747 computer?  I cant find any markings that
> > should
> > > look familiar like 27c128 or something to that
> > effect.
> > >  I have one to program here and it has two legs
> > that
> > > were broken.  I plan on loading it with a bin from
> > the
> > > FTP site, but now I need a new prom.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > -Brett
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> > now.
> > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Diy_efi mailing list
> > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 01:20:37 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:20:37 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

> An ingenious person might even be able to build a
> fan, or modify an existing one, to provide the
> appropriate speed of airflow based on the vehicle's
> estimated speed from the drive wheels, but that's
> fancy schmancy now, isn't it? :)

And unnecessary.  ;)  As long as the fans provide at
LEAST enough airflow to remove heat from the system,
the thermostat will keep the coolant temperature in
the engine fairly constant.  It's only when there is
not enough fan capacity, and the coolant temperature
keeps going up once the thermostat is open, that there
should be a problem.

That's the whole purpose of a thermostat; to prevent overcooling.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 01:21:00 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:21:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

> Well, it just seems that dynojet type duno is the
> most popular out there

I will agree.  Heavy marketing is a key there, as is a
general lack of understanding on the part of the
consumer about what a dyno is good for, and how it
works.

> Well I'll be building a 4cyl turbocharged fuel
> injected auto engine looking for 300 or so rwhp (as
> a dynojet would estimate)... I mean it'd be nice to
> get the best tuning available, but that will
> probably not be in my budget =)

I'll be interested to see how your dyno tune does in
the real world, and how much better you will be able
to make it by tuning after getting the "best" tune
available on the dyno.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 01:23:20 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:23:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Mos  wrote:

> exhaust fans (you'd need something with at least the
> same amount of airflow as the supply fan, right?)

Yep.

> I'm intrigued as to what sort of temps one gets on a
> dyno - has anyone logged a heap of temp probes in
> various conditions?

What temps are you looking for?  Ambient?  At the
radiator?  Engine, coolant?

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 01:38:13 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:38:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Shannen Durphey  wrote:

> Using a braking type dyno to tune a car for WOT can
> produce misleading results.

Not in my experience...

> A lightweight car with a high power to weight ratio
> would typically never see the same load and duration
> that can be applied with a brake type dyno.

How do you figure?  All that power goes into
overcoming aerodynamic drag, and either you accelerate
with it, or you reach a steady state where the power
produced is equal to the load from drag.  If you can
add more braking with a brake, the rpms drop.  With an
eddy current brake, anyway, you hold a certain rpm
with a certain throttle position, and map for that
load.  Max load given by the brake should be WOT at
best horsepower; no more.  One can certainly expect
the vehicle to obtain that loading condition at some
point in its life.

> Running up to a specific rpm and holding that rpm
> while fuel and spark are tuned in will tend to heat
> parts more than they would be heated in "normal"
> operation.

I disagree.  Unless you're talking about a
grocery-getter.  And in any case, you will get the
conditions in component heating in the real world that
you would on the dyno (give or take a small margin),
assuming you have adequate cooling in the dyno room;
if you drive the thing in low-load conditions, you'll
get the heating you see with low-load testing.  Same
goes for high-load conditions.

> The consequences can be more fuel/ less spark than
> optimal get dialed into the final tune. 

Again, a number of years of fairly constant
dyno-tuning experience with motorcycles disagrees with
that assessment.  Again, though, the dyno rooms I was
using were either outdoors with very hugh-flow fans
and ducting, or with exceptional exhaust fans indoors.
 Temperatures are constantly checked while tuning, and
are almost exclusively found to be normal operating
temperatures.  Very few real-world tuning changes need
to be made after leaving the dyno (unless we're
talking about a system that switches back and forth
between open-  and closed-loop a lot, where
transitions are perhaps more important than perfectly
optimal open-loop mapping).

> The inertial loads alone provide more than enough
> resistance to provide an acceptable street and
> competition tune for these vehicles.  

I suppose it depends on what you consider
"acceptable".  At the AMA Superbike races, losing
isn't considered acceptable, which is why even teams
sponsored by Dynojet often get their bikes tuned on
eddy-curent dynos trackside.  My experience has been
that any motorcycle tuned by anyone on a Dynojet dyno
can be tuned better on an eddy-current dyno, and I've
yet to see that belief disproven.  I have a hard time
believing that machines making MORE power would fare
much better on an inertial dyno.

> To think that you can get a tune right "to the
> gnat's butt" on _any_ type of dyno is to assume that
> you will be running under the same conditions
> always.

It's to assume that you ride around on a dyno.  That
never happens.  And I believe I've said several times
that a dyno is a tool, not the end-all, nor should
anyone think it is.

However, if you get bad results, or end up needing to
do more work than if you had not used it (or used
something else), then it's time, energy and money
wasted, IMHO.

> A wide band sensor mounted in the tailpipe can be
> used to provide a successful tune, just like reading
> plugs can be used to provide a successful tune.

Well, so far in this thread we've had one person with
experience explain that changing the ignition timing
can change the reading on a WBO2 sensor, without
changing the fueling.  And it's pretty well-known that
plug chops tell you if you have the right heat range
plug for the engine and fueling, and nothing more. 
You CANNOT use plug chops for effective tuning unless
you ALREADY KNOW that you have the optimal heat range
for your engine.  THEN they can tell you something.

> To say that the length of the exhaust makes the
> sensor's readings useless only implies that the
> tuner doesn't know what to do with them.

Er, who said anything to that effect?  IF you're
assigning those ideas to me, you've significantly
misread what I was saying.

> For many, many street cars, WB + inertial dyno +
> competent tuner is very satisfactory.

I said that several times as well.  Will it give best
results out of the available tools?  No.  Will it be
close to perfect coming off the dyno?  No.  Will it
get you a lot closer than spending the same time
driving the car around, trying to rough out a map for
a new system just installed on a vehicle with no base
map?  Yes.

Would I rather spend my money on an eddy current dyno
with a four-gas?  Absolutely.


=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Wed Dec 18 01:47:27 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:47:27 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] way off topic -- 4gas, wideband, brake dyno, aftermarket efi... wow
Message-ID: 

> I'll be interested to see how your dyno tune does in
> the real world, and how much better you will be able
> to make it by tuning after getting the "best" tune
> available on the dyno.

Well assuming I can find a good dyno tuner, the EFI I plan on running is
really neat in that you can put it in a mode where, after driving a certain
way (say part throttle highway cruising), you can view what parts of the map
were used and the specs at those places (knock, inj duty, etc etc).  So what
this enables you to do, to a certain extent, is retroactively tune the
vehicle.  Now with some good datalogging you could take this very far, but
just by seat of the pants feel and these readings some of my friends are
making very good (apparent) gains...

Apex'i Power FC + Commander -- anyone ever have any experience with it?  Now
this is *WAY OT*


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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 18 01:49:15 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:49:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Dyno. cooling
Message-ID: 

On Tue, Dec 17, 2002 at 05:26:37PM -0800, Adam Wade wrote:
> --- Erik Jacobs  wrote:
> 
> > An ingenious person might even be able to build a
> > fan, or modify an existing one, to provide the
> > appropriate speed of airflow based on the vehicle's
> > estimated speed from the drive wheels, but that's
> > fancy schmancy now, isn't it? :)

> And unnecessary.  ;)  As long as the fans provide at
> LEAST enough airflow to remove heat from the system,
> the thermostat will keep the coolant temperature in
> the engine fairly constant.  It's only when there is

You're not considering the car as a whole... an engine's output
power is determined by ambient conditions. Unrepresentative airflow
through the engine compartment probably means that components aren't
operating at representative temperatures.

Somebody else already mentioned that drawing air from underneath the
car would be a closer approximation to the real road.

Even a wind-tunnel doesn't provide "true" airflow; the boundary
layer at ground level on the road has a different shape (velocity
profile) to that in a wind tunnel; which no doubt peeves some
engineers who've spent hundreds of millions on "the world's best"
wind-tunnel.

In essence what they need is the vehicle/prototype/model moving
relative to the ground with the air "attached" to the ground; but
they're only moving air relative to the ground and the vehicle.

I know that's somewhat esoteric; but keep it in mind when you think
about how representative of road conditions the dynamometer really
is...

> not enough fan capacity, and the coolant temperature
> keeps going up once the thermostat is open, that there
> should be a problem.

> That's the whole purpose of a thermostat; to prevent overcooling.

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
 X   against HTML mail     | Copy me into your ~/.signature
/ \  and postings          | to help me spread!

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From patc at opposition.tv  Wed Dec 18 01:57:22 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:57:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Message: 3
Subject: AW: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 00:30:04 +0100
From: "Schaffer Klaus Maria" 
To: 
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Geddes, Brian J [mailto:brian.j.geddes at intel.com]
> Gesendet: Montag, 16. Dezember 2002 19:11
> An: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Betreff: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>=20
> Any other advice on this?  If a dyno is not readily available=20
> (I have an all-wheel drive car), could one infer a increase=20
> in torque from a decrease in EGTs? =20
>=20
> > The DIY way is to advance until torque drops, or until it pings,
> > whichever is first.  If it pings first, drop it back a notch, or use
> > higher octane.
> >=20

The way which professionals are going:

An engine cycle has his highest efficiency (best torque) when the timing =
of MBF50% (time when 50% of the fuel is burnt) is set to 8deg-ATDC. =
Sounds easy, you only need a device that tells you when 50% of the fuel =
is burnt ;-)

The only way to get the information, is to calculate the heat release =
rate. Therefor you need at least information about the incylinder =
pressure. You need a incylinder pressure sensor and a trigger device =
(resolution of 0.5deg works good enough). A good incylinder pressure =
transducer costs ~$2000,-, bad one ~$1000,-. Low cost sensors are in =
development since years, but not available today. Equations for =
calculating the heat release rate can be found in the Heywood book and =
in many SAE-papers.

There are some indicating system on the market that will do this for =
you. Best will come from a company located at my hometown www.avl.com =
;-). But don't ask for prices or better: before you get a price: fasten =
your seat belts.

Further a few words to timing advance. Engines of newer conception (4V, =
central spark plug, CR~11) will have at loads lower than 50-70% their =
best advance before "pinging". At full load, knock limit is always the =
best.

		--- so long ---, klaus.


There also remains a problem with late model 4valve engines in that some of
them hardly detonate at all! I have seen Mazda MX5 (Miata) engines on the
dyno which don't ping, or at least give no indication of pre ignition
audibly with well over 40 deg advance, WOT and max. torque. The only
indication was a drastic reduction in power.

I have also seen one F3 engine builder destroy dozens of Mitsubishi engines
(4G63 I think) before they got the timing right. Part of the reason was that
the dyno guys had trouble figuring out where the ping limit was. Then when
they installed the engine and it was subjected to ram effect through the air
box, Kabang! Admittedly, these engines run air restrictors and CR's in the
region of 13:1, so getting the ignition map right is an art form in itself.

The really clever engine builders (Neil Brown, Speiss Tuning) use the method
prescribed by Klaus. But the cost of the test equipment is horrific.

Just a word of caution for anyone trying this theory with modern 4valve N/A
engines, that's all.


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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Wed Dec 18 02:05:09 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:05:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

> Well, so far in this thread we've had one person with
> experience explain that changing the ignition timing
> can change the reading on a WBO2 sensor, without
> changing the fueling.  And it's pretty well-known that
> plug chops tell you if you have the right heat range
> plug for the engine and fueling, and nothing more.
> You CANNOT use plug chops for effective tuning unless
> you ALREADY KNOW that you have the optimal heat range
> for your engine.  THEN they can tell you something.

Uh... doesn't it MAKE SENSE that the wbo2 reading would change with a change
in timing?  I mean, if you change your spark timing, can't it end up
effecting the actual extent of the combustion that occurs?  Like in an
extreme case, if the spark was way late (super retarded), you'd completely
miss TDC and may not get any ignition at all, which would result in an
extremely rich mixture reading as the whole charge passes out thru the
exhaust valve...

But if someone already said that, pardon me for not reading the thread.


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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Wed Dec 18 02:10:01 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:10:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Dyno. cooling
Message-ID: 


were running the 3/4 mile now. 

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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Wed Dec 18 02:11:51 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (Daniel R. Nicoson)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:11:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Dyno. cooling
Message-ID: 

Why do you need to spend more than 30 seconds at any one data point anyway?
Can't data log help you get many data points in that same 30 seconds?

Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Bernd Felsche
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:55 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] Dyno. cooling

On Tue, Dec 17, 2002 at 05:26:37PM -0800, Adam Wade wrote:
> --- Erik Jacobs  wrote:
>
> > An ingenious person might even be able to build a
> > fan, or modify an existing one, to provide the
> > appropriate speed of airflow based on the vehicle's
> > estimated speed from the drive wheels, but that's
> > fancy schmancy now, isn't it? :)

> And unnecessary.  ;)  As long as the fans provide at
> LEAST enough airflow to remove heat from the system,
> the thermostat will keep the coolant temperature in
> the engine fairly constant.  It's only when there is

You're not considering the car as a whole... an engine's output
power is determined by ambient conditions. Unrepresentative airflow
through the engine compartment probably means that components aren't
operating at representative temperatures.

Somebody else already mentioned that drawing air from underneath the
car would be a closer approximation to the real road.

Even a wind-tunnel doesn't provide "true" airflow; the boundary
layer at ground level on the road has a different shape (velocity
profile) to that in a wind tunnel; which no doubt peeves some
engineers who've spent hundreds of millions on "the world's best"
wind-tunnel.

In essence what they need is the vehicle/prototype/model moving
relative to the ground with the air "attached" to the ground; but
they're only moving air relative to the ground and the vehicle.

I know that's somewhat esoteric; but keep it in mind when you think
about how representative of road conditions the dynamometer really
is...

> not enough fan capacity, and the coolant temperature
> keeps going up once the thermostat is open, that there
> should be a problem.

> That's the whole purpose of a thermostat; to prevent overcooling.

--
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\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
 X   against HTML mail     | Copy me into your ~/.signature
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 02:17:06 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:17:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Dyno. cooling
Message-ID: 

--- Bernd Felsche 
wrote:

> You're not considering the car as a whole... an
> engine's output power is determined by ambient
> conditions.  Unrepresentative airflow through the
> engine compartment probably means that components
> aren't operating at representative temperatures.

What parts are you concerned about?  We've already
agreed that a dyno will never be exactly the same as
real-world operating conditions...  What parts do you
feel would be operating outside of normal parameters
given extra airflow?  Considering that the air moving
through the engine compartment couldn't possibly cool
the components to, say, winter ambient temperatures,
there's no way you could end up with below normal
operating temperatures on any component I could think
of, unless you were designing a Venus rover or
something.

> Somebody else already mentioned that drawing air
> from underneath the car would be a closer
> approximation to the real road.

The ultimate question is, "Does it make a meaningful
difference?"  I'm not understanding how it could be,
when speaking of underhood temps.

> In essence what they need is the
> vehicle/prototype/model moving relative to the
> ground with the air "attached" to the ground; but
> they're only moving air relative to the ground and
> the vehicle.

Unless it's a "rolling road" wind tunnel.  And even
that is not PERFECT, simply very, very close.

> I know that's somewhat esoteric; but keep it in mind
> when you think about how representative of road
> conditions the dynamometer really is...

*grins*  Yes, I keep saying that...

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 02:21:15 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:21:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

> Uh... doesn't it MAKE SENSE that the wbo2 reading
> would change with a change in timing?

Yes, for exactly the reason I believe that four-gas
beats the pants off of O2 sensing; CO is a far better
gauge of optimal mixture than residual O2.

> I mean, if you change your spark timing, can't it
> end up effecting the actual extent of the combustion
> that occurs?

Absolutely.  Whether that has anything to do with
whether your mixture is correct or not is another
story...

> Like in an extreme case, if the spark was way late
> (super retarded), you'd completely miss TDC and may
> not get any ignition at all, which would result in
an
> extremely rich mixture reading as the whole charge
> passes out thru the exhaust valve...

Nope.  It would result in an extremely LEAN mixture
reading, using an O2 sensor.  Because there would be a
great excess of both O2 and HC in a case like that. 
And both HC and O2 readings, by themselves, would not
tell you much of anything about whether the mixture
was correct (in fact, NOTHING could with a significant
misfire condition, but at least looking a 4-gas, you
could clearly tell it was misfiring just by looking at
the gas readings).

My point was that best mixture doesn't change when you
vary timing; while you might get some slight
improvement in power with non-optimal timing by making
small changes in A/F, you can't get down to brass
tacks with residual O2 alone, especially when timing
is in question.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 02:22:49 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:22:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Dyno. cooling
Message-ID: 

--- "Daniel R. Nicoson" 
wrote:

> Why do you need to spend more than 30 seconds at any
> one data point anyway?

With a good gas analysis (on an eddy current dyno),
you should be able to run at least 4-5 load/speed
sites in 30 seconds, including a return to idle in between.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From yoshi at hotpop.com  Wed Dec 18 02:41:09 2002
From: yoshi at hotpop.com (JC)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:41:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] LSM-11 price
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C2A5FC.4BA48510
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Does anyone know where I can get Bosch LSM-11 (0 258 104 002)sensor at a =
good price?

Thanks,

Jacky

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C2A5FC.4BA48510
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Hi,


 


Does anyone know where I can get Bosch =
LSM-11 (0=20
258 104 002)sensor at a good price?


 


Thanks,


 


Jacky


------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C2A5FC.4BA48510--




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From steve.andersen at dol.net  Wed Dec 18 02:52:16 2002
From: steve.andersen at dol.net (Stephen M Andersen)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:52:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Dyno tuning question
Message-ID: 

Okay, a question regarding the dyno discussion
going on:

If you are talking about steady state tuning being
more "accurate" than tuning on an inertial dyno 
or vice versa, I can see the merit in the steady state
tuning, and truly being able to "optimize" the settings
(timing in particular) under those conditions.

However, how do you compensate for Acceleration Enrichment
which may/will not be applied under these conditions, vs.
tuning in an acceleration "sweep" on an inertial dyno?

Wouldn't the actual "act" of accelerating deviate from 
the steady state tune due to this?

Steve




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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 18 02:57:09 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:57:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Dyno. cooling
Message-ID: 

On Tue, Dec 17, 2002 at 06:22:35PM -0800, Adam Wade wrote:
> --- Bernd Felsche 
> wrote:

> > You're not considering the car as a whole... an
> > engine's output power is determined by ambient
> > conditions.  Unrepresentative airflow through the
> > engine compartment probably means that components
> > aren't operating at representative temperatures.

> What parts are you concerned about?  We've already
> agreed that a dyno will never be exactly the same as
> real-world operating conditions...  What parts do you
> feel would be operating outside of normal parameters
> given extra airflow?  Considering that the air moving

Air intake for one; temperature sensors for coolant, oil sump,
exhaust manifold temperature and hence O2 sensor... just a few to
start.

"Extra" airflow is nothing like road values unless the supply of
cooling air is covering more than the entire front of the vehicle.

> through the engine compartment couldn't possibly cool
> the components to, say, winter ambient temperatures,
> there's no way you could end up with below normal
> operating temperatures on any component I could think
> of, unless you were designing a Venus rover or
> something.

It's not a question of under-cooling per se. It's about achieving
relative temperatures inside the engine compartment with thermal
flows like those on the road.

> > Somebody else already mentioned that drawing air
> > from underneath the car would be a closer
> > approximation to the real road.
> 
> The ultimate question is, "Does it make a meaningful
> difference?"  I'm not understanding how it could be,
> when speaking of underhood temps.

It depends on the operating points of the engine management system
and how it reacts to changes. It also depends greatly on the supply
of cooling air.

One can conceive of situations where an improvement on a dyno.
doesn't result in an improvement on the road, simply because of the
differences in airflow and hence heat transfer in the engine
compartment. It wouldn't be the first time that laboratory results
couldn't be achieved outside of controlled conditions.

> > In essence what they need is the
> > vehicle/prototype/model moving relative to the
> > ground with the air "attached" to the ground; but
> > they're only moving air relative to the ground and
> > the vehicle.
> 
> Unless it's a "rolling road" wind tunnel.  And even
> that is not PERFECT, simply very, very close.

Who's got one of those?

> > I know that's somewhat esoteric; but keep it in mind
> > when you think about how representative of road
> > conditions the dynamometer really is...
> 
> *grins*  Yes, I keep saying that...

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
 X   against HTML mail     | Copy me into your ~/.signature
/ \  and postings          | to help me spread!

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 02:58:56 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:58:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Dyno tuning question
Message-ID: 

--- Stephen M Andersen  wrote:

> However, how do you compensate for Acceleration
> Enrichment which may/will not be applied under these
> conditions, vs. tuning in an acceleration "sweep" on
> an inertial dyno?

On an eddy current dyno, you could do "sweep" runs
with varying load.  On an inertial dyno, you're stuck
with a single load (the mass of the drum).  Neither is
truly ideal, but either should be able to get you
reasonably decent "starting point" results.  You want
to add enough additional fuel to JUST prevent any
stumble, and no more (as a general rule), and have
that taper off as MAP stabilizes.

> Wouldn't the actual "act" of accelerating deviate
> from the steady state tune due to this?

There's no way to do it steady-state.  However, you
CAN do sweep tests with any load setting you like (you
can even set for an exponentially-increasing load, to
duplicate the conditions found with actual air drag
during acceleration).

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From patc at opposition.tv  Wed Dec 18 03:14:11 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 00:14:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Cool runnings.
Message-ID: 

Message: 11
Date:	Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:22:35 -0800 (PST)
From:	Adam Wade 
Subject:	Re: [Diy_efi] Dyno. cooling
To:	diy_efi at diy-efi.org
	Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

--- Bernd Felsche  wrote:
> You're not considering the car as a whole... an
> engine's output power is determined by ambient
> conditions.  Unrepresentative airflow through the
> engine compartment probably means that components
> aren't operating at representative temperatures.

What parts are you concerned about?  We've already agreed that a dyno will
never be exactly the same as real-world operating conditions...  What parts
do you feel would be operating outside of normal parameters given extra
airflow?  Considering that the air moving through the engine compartment
couldn't possibly cool the components to, say, winter ambient temperatures,
there's no way you could end up with below normal operating temperatures on
any component I could think of, unless you were designing a Venus rover or
something.
> Somebody else already mentioned that drawing air
> from underneath the car would be a closer
> approximation to the real road.

The ultimate question is, "Does it make a meaningful difference?"  I'm not
understanding how it could be, when speaking of underhood temps.
> In essence what they need is the
> vehicle/prototype/model moving relative to the
> ground with the air "attached" to the ground; but
> they're only moving air relative to the ground and
> the vehicle.

Unless it's a "rolling road" wind tunnel.  And even that is not PERFECT,
simply very, very close.
> I know that's somewhat esoteric; but keep it in mind
> when you think about how representative of road
> conditions the dynamometer really is...

*grins*  Yes, I keep saying that...


NOW YOUR TALKING!

A rolling road wind tunnel WITH an in floor chassis dyno both calibrated to
run at the same speed!

If you figure out how to build such a beast I've got Adrian Newey and Ross
Brawn's email addresses. I'm sure they would both like to know.

In the mean time, can we get away from the NASA budget end of things and
talk DIY again.

The problem with cooling on a chassis dyno is lack of adequate air flow.
Unless your fan has the surface area to blow over the whole car PLUS about a
meter all around its max. cross section, then it won't cool properly.
Airflow used for cooling is as much about what happens behind, below and on
top of the car as it is in front of it. The motorbike radiators you speak of
are in probably the simplest aerodynamic installation you can get. But place
a car body around the things and life gets complicated. If you are relying
on a single source of airflow at the front of the car then you can double
the air flow required in front of the radiators in order to achieve the
right pressure drop.

Dyno cells also have inherent problems as they are not true to the nature
with which the engine operates in its installed environment. Especially when
it comes to modern machinery which often have positive air box pressure
(read ram effect). And don't discount the effect of inadequate airflow over
an engine to screw up the tune when it comes to heat soak and excessive
temperatures. I could tell the story of the twin turbo Porsche which was
tested in a dyno cell and showed 397HP at the flywheel. From this, the
series organisers calculated it's weight penalty and that was that. Except
that when the engine was installed in the car and the oil was cooled
properly from air flow over the sump and engine, it suddenly produced
approx. 480HP. It seems that there were a couple of temp compensators in the
Motronic that curbed the timing relative to oil temp. On the dyno the oil
ran at 110-120C dependant on load. In the car it ran at 90C the whole time.
The reason for the compensation was that they were relying on oil squirting
on the back of the pistons to help control detonation.

OK, so they were really bending the rules but it still illustrates some of
the effects that can be easily overlooked.

Going back to the genesis of this story. I have found that a good WBO2
(Bosch 0258104002 is a good start), PROPER data logging, an optimised
ignition map and someone who knows what they are doing gets you very close
to the mark. The tricky bit is getting the timing right. However, if it is a
modified street motor, the stock map is a good place to start. It's oly when
you et into big boost or high comp. app's that you have to be real careful.
All of this done at your favourite test track or stretch of road in order to
get the best real world data you can. I mean, even the car companies, with
all of their test rigs, still hit the road to verify what happened in the
lab. And still find plenty of adjustments to be made.


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 03:15:11 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 00:15:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Dyno. cooling
Message-ID: 

--- Bernd Felsche 
wrote:

>> What parts are you concerned about?

> Air intake for one;

The temperature of the air entering the air intake
won't change appreciably at higher speeds, assuming
you are using a dry-bulb sensor (which you should be).

> temperature sensors for coolant,

You're not suggesting that the sensor will read
differently based on increased under-hood airspeed?

> oil sump,

Changing airspeed won't change the speed at which heat
is removed, once the air is moving at least as fast as
the heat transfer rate of the material in question. 
If the pan can't shed heat any faster than the air can
absorb it, then the extra airflow won't take as much
heat per unit volume moving past.

> exhaust manifold temperature and hence O2 sensor...

Unless you are using the exhaust O2 sensor for tuning
(which I never have, and in fact most of the vehicles
I tune don't even include), that's not really an
issue.  In any case, if it were a significant issue,
then a warmed-up car would receive different values
from the O2 sensor in cold weather vs. hot weather,
far in excess of the difference based on differences
in airspeed with same-temperature air (not to mention
needing to control EGT to get reliable, repeatable
readings from an O2 sensor).  I'd think that would
make it useless in the real world.

> "Extra" airflow is nothing like road values unless
> the supply of cooling air is covering more than the
> entire front of the vehicle.

HUH?

> It's not a question of under-cooling per se. It's
> about achieving relative temperatures inside the
> engine compartment with thermal flows like those on
> the road.

Since we're not trying to compare engine efficiency,
or reliabliity of components, with those of vehicles
actually on the road, I can't see where it makes a lot
of difference.  I'm not designing an intake system, or
figuring out what temperature a coil pack must resist.
 I'm tuning a vehicle to make best power, given a
warmed-up engine and an IAT of X.  As long as my
engine is warmed up, my sensors are operating
properly, there are no overheating conditions, and the
IAT is recorded, that's all that matters from a tuning
aspect.

>> The ultimate question is, "Does it make a
>> meaningful difference?"  I'm not understanding how
>> it could be, when speaking of underhood temps.

> It depends on the operating points of the engine
> management system and how it reacts to changes.

I don't see how.  None of the sensors used by the EFI
system should be afftected by airflow at all, as long
as minimum airflow requirements for cooling are met.

> One can conceive of situations where an improvement
> on a dyno. doesn't result in an improvement on the
> road, simply because of the differences in airflow
> and hence heat transfer in the engine compartment.

I certainly can't, unless there is a problem with heat
build-up in places where it gives misleading readings
when on the road.  That's a design flaw, and finding
and fixing it quickly is important.  It can lead to
very unpredictable and changable real-world results,
and presumably that runs counter to our goals.

>> Unless it's a "rolling road" wind tunnel.  And
>> even that is not PERFECT, simply very, very close.

> Who's got one of those?

There are many around the world.  They are used all
the time by F1 teams, car manufacturers, and the like.

A better question might be, "Who can afford to
dyno-test in a wind tunnel of ANY sort, and would
there be any benefit to doing so?"

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From ronin at aristotle.net  Wed Dec 18 03:34:21 2002
From: ronin at aristotle.net (Dave Williams)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 00:34:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

"Amenson Scott (AC/ESC4)" wrote:
 
> That is true for all but the most recent systems.  In order to reduce the
> pulsing that the driver feels on the gas pedal, systems are moving away from
> bang-bang/PWM control toward a more proportional control.  In an effort to
> completely eliminate system pedal feedback, brake by wire systems have been
> developed and installed in some high end cars.

 Elimination of feedback seems to be a counterproductive goal, but what
the heck - they've already managed it for steering.

-- 
===ronin at aristotle.net (Dave Williams)==============================
== waiting, anticipating / for someone to save her soul / well, I ==
== ain't no new Messiah / but I'm close enough for rock and roll! ==
============================= http://angelfire.com/ar/dw42/index.htm

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From ronin at aristotle.net  Wed Dec 18 03:34:21 2002
From: ronin at aristotle.net (Dave Williams)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 00:34:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: ABS retrofit into older car...
Message-ID: 

Eric Deslauriers wrote:
> 
> Check out Mercedes' new braking system on their SL500. Now when you try to
> modulate, the system takes over for you. Once you do max braking, it keeps
> it up.
> 
> http://dev.roadandtrack.com/reviews/roadtests/ArticleDisplay.asp?ArticleID=4
> 8&page=2
> and the top of page 3 as well.

 I hope it has a big, sturdy rear bumper.

 Most of my panic stop scenarios have involved watching the rearview
mirror at *least* as much as what was in front of me; no sense in not
tapping the bumper of the car in front if you're going to get
accordioned by a pickup truck.

-- 
===ronin at aristotle.net (Dave Williams)==============================
== waiting, anticipating / for someone to save her soul / well, I ==
== ain't no new Messiah / but I'm close enough for rock and roll! ==
============================= http://angelfire.com/ar/dw42/index.htm

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 18 04:42:49 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 01:42:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] newbie question
Message-ID: 

At 04:34 PM 17/12/2002 EST, you wrote:
>
check out www.unicornelectronics they have 27c32b's a much better
12volt 
>chip. they cost about 3 buck a piece but ive ereased and reprogrammed my 
>stock of 10 about 15x or so each. these are new chips that have been sitting 
>around.

Love your wonderfully scientific comment re the chips, would it have
been better if they were standing up ?

*grin*

I've had 2732, 27c32 etc and a heap of original eeprom pld's from amd
in a box in the shed for almost 13 years, still work - though must admit
not only were they sitting around but at odd angles too ;)

rgds

mike


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 18 05:02:20 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 02:02:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

At 06:28 PM 17/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:
>
>> Uh... doesn't it MAKE SENSE that the wbo2 reading
>> would change with a change in timing?
>
>Yes, for exactly the reason I believe that four-gas
>beats the pants off of O2 sensing; CO is a far better
>gauge of optimal mixture than residual O2.

Its understandable as the CO to NOx balance will change
and this is not determinable from residual O2 alone but,
how is the 4gas analyser able to handle the issue of
the storage type characteristics of the CAT ?

This is something that could be broke and might need a fix ;)

rgds

mike


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From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Dec 18 05:32:13 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 02:32:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] way off topic -- 4gas, wideband, brake dyno, aftermarket 
Message-ID: 

Erik Jacobs wrote:

> 
> Apex'i Power FC + Commander -- anyone ever have any experience with it?  Now
> this is *WAY OT*
No, actually it's right on charter.

Shannen

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From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Dec 18 05:32:15 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 02:32:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 



Adam Wade wrote:
> 
> --- Shannen Durphey  wrote:

> > A lightweight car with a high power to weight ratio
> > would typically never see the same load and duration
> > that can be applied with a brake type dyno.
> 
> How do you figure?  
Easy.  Using the dyno, I can apply enough load to keep a 200hp Honda at
1500 rpm indefinitely.  Unless it's hooked to a trailer full of horses,
there's no way that Honda will see the same load for the same amount of
time on the street.  It only passes through that point in a fraction of a
second on its way to "somehwere else." 

> All that power goes into
> overcoming aerodynamic drag, and either you accelerate
> with it, or you reach a steady state where the power
> produced is equal to the load from drag.  If you can
> add more braking with a brake, the rpms drop.  With an
> eddy current brake, anyway, you hold a certain rpm
> with a certain throttle position, and map for that
> load.  Max load given by the brake should be WOT at
> best horsepower; no more.  One can certainly expect
> the vehicle to obtain that loading condition at some
> point in its life.

Are you considering time?  It's the "at some point" that makes the
difference.  As a wild example, consider the dyno load causing the engine
to take 5 minutes to reach 1500 rpm vs the same engine getting to 1500 rpm
in a second on the street.  There's going to be a lot more heat produced
during the 5 minute pull than the one  second run.  The longer the engine's
exposed to heat, the more the heads will heat up, the cooling system will
heat up, radiator, engine comp't...  After 5 minutes of dyno run time you
can bet engine conditions aren't the same as the "real world."

A different example:  Set the brake to maintain a specific rpm.  We can
accelerate to close to that rpm with minimal effort, and we can stab the
throttle right as we get to that rpm.  The perfect dyno will hold exactly
enough brake to maintain that rpm.  So now you're running at the desired
rpm.  You have to take readings, maybe change settings.  How long does this
take?  10 seconds?  5? 2?  How does this time compare to the time the enge
spends at that rpm and load when it's not tied down?  How much more do you
heat the engine?

> 
> > Running up to a specific rpm and holding that rpm
> > while fuel and spark are tuned in will tend to heat
> > parts more than they would be heated in "normal"
> > operation.
> 
> I disagree.  Unless you're talking about a
> grocery-getter.  And in any case, you will get the
> conditions in component heating in the real world that
> you would on the dyno (give or take a small margin),
No, give or take a large margin.

How about a different example. If we can think of a vehicle as a dyno, then
we can consider the difference between a heavy, loaded truck and a
lightweight car with the same engine.  The truck spends more time at WOT
with rpm changing less.  It builds more heat in the chambers, at  the
plugs, in the cooling system.  If we are tuning this truck, then we see
that as heat increases the tendency for detonation increases.  We both know
there are ways to fix this.  We can adjust spark and fuel to prevent the
heating/detonation from occurring.  And when we're done, the calibration we
end up with is safe for the vehicle.

The problem occurs if the engine is taken from the heavily loaded truck and
placed into the lighter car.  There are few clues to tell you the
calibration could be better.  There's certainly little sign that fueling or
spark is wrong.  Depending on when you look, you might catch clues from the
plugs. But fuel and spark are not really "wrong."  It's just that they
could be better.

> assuming you have adequate cooling in the dyno room;

Cooling is a big part of the issue.  Maybe this will help.  Compared to a
bike, you could think of a car as having inadequate cooling on the street,
and usually less in the dyno room.

> > The consequences can be more fuel/ less spark than
> > optimal get dialed into the final tune.
> 
> Again, a number of years of fairly constant
> dyno-tuning experience with motorcycles disagrees with
> that assessment.   Again, though, the dyno rooms I was
> using were either outdoors with very hugh-flow fans
> and ducting, or with exceptional exhaust fans indoors.
Consider the mass of the engines you're tuning.  Think of the airflow
around the engine, the size of the cooling system versus the size of the
engine, the materials the engine is made from.  I'm not going to say this
is fact, but I'd bet it's a far cry easier to remove heat from a finned
head, relatively open chassis bike engine than from a car's or truck's
engine.


>  Temperatures are constantly checked while tuning, and
> are almost exclusively found to be normal operating
> temperatures.  Very few real-world tuning changes need
> to be made after leaving the dyno 

Not trying to be a prick, but how do you know?  What I mean is, are you
looking for signs that something is wrong, or signs that something is
right?  It's awful hard to find a clue that things are performing at their
best.  Even the top dawgs know their stuff is only working better than the
guy at #2.

> 
> > The inertial loads alone provide more than enough
> > resistance to provide an acceptable street and
> > competition tune for these vehicles.
> 
> I suppose it depends on what you consider
> "acceptable".  
Point taken. 

> At the AMA Superbike races, losing
> isn't considered acceptable, which is why even teams
> sponsored by Dynojet often get their bikes tuned on
> eddy-curent dynos trackside.  

Ok, but racers are paranoid.  Smokey Yunick once said something like "If I
showed up at the track one week with dog turd on my hood, next week
everyone would have dog turd on their hoods."  To be fair, if I wanted to
make changes to my car on Race Day, and I'd found that an eddy current
dyno, or an inertial dyno, or a bag of angry cats tied to the fuel cell
gave me results that I trusted, then that's what I'd use at the track.  The
game is different on race day.



> My experience has been
> that any motorcycle tuned by anyone on a Dynojet dyno
> can be tuned better on an eddy-current dyno, and I've
> yet to see that belief disproven.  
Are you saying that you've back to back tuned between different types of
dynos, or are you comparing stories with other people, or are you judging
by bikes that others have tuned which you're retuning? 

I plead no contest to this example.  I can't prove true or not true.  But
for the general implication that a tune will be better on a specific type
of braking dyno because of the type of dyno, I say there are  exceptions.

> 
> ...time, energy and money wasted, IMHO.
Agreed, 100%


> Well, so far in this thread we've had one person with
> experience explain that changing the ignition timing
> can change the reading on a WBO2 sensor, without
> changing the fueling.  

Now you have two people with experience saying it's true.  But it's
important to understand why and when this will happen.  Changing timing
changes the start of the burn and affects the end of the burn.  You can
easily push some of the reaction into the exhaust pipes by playing with
timing.  Since the O2 sensor measures oxygen between the exhaust and the
fresh air, it will "see" an increase in the amount of oxygen in the exhaust
as a change in AFR.  The closer the sensor is to the exhaust ports, the
more oxygen it will see, and the more it will be affected by timing
changes.  At the end of a street car exhaust, all this "outside" combustion
is done.  I've actually heard one guy claim that changing from 100 octane
race fuel to street fuel richened his mixture.  It seemed less of a miracle
after I checked O2 sensor location.


> And it's pretty well-known that
> plug chops tell you if you have the right heat range
> plug for the engine and fueling, and nothing more.
> You CANNOT use plug chops for effective tuning unless
> you ALREADY KNOW that you have the optimal heat range
> for your engine.  THEN they can tell you something.

I don't agree with that.  If you pick a plug, and run it, and it shows
lean, you can add fuel.  If the car's speed/response/power falls, you can
add timing.  By doing this you will find the optimum fuel and spark for
that plug.  Switch to a colder or hotter plug and try again.  When you're
done, you will have found the optimum fuel/spark for each plug, and the
trend of times/ speeds will point to one or two plugs as optimum.  It does
work, but it's slow.  My point was that it's a tool just like the WB.

> Er, who said anything to that effect?  IF you're
> assigning those ideas to me, you've significantly
> misread what I was saying.

My apologies.  You were advocating moving the wideband closer to the ports
to reduce delays in sensor readings.  I thought you were saying that the
delay was a "bad thing."

> 
> > For many, many street cars, WB + inertial dyno +
> > competent tuner is very satisfactory.
> 

> Would I rather spend my money on an eddy current dyno
> with a four-gas?  Absolutely.
There ya go.  

I did my own comparison years ago between inertial dynos and braking dynos,
and braking won.  I also have issues with the Dynojet user interface, but
that's a different story.  But I think it's important to make the
distinction (and you have) between bench racing dynos and the general
usefuleness of any type of dyno.  Every step forward is a good one, and the
more "the consumer" becomes aware of what it takes to make a good
calibration, the less likely he will be to support vendors that sell junk. 
Getting guys onto a dyno is a big step toward furthering that
understanding.

Shannen

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From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Dec 18 05:39:39 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 02:39:39 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

Adam Wade wrote:

> but at least looking a 4-gas, you
> could clearly tell it was misfiring just by looking at
> the gas readings).

To be honest, a WB _can_ do the same thing.  The response viewed with
something like the Dynojet or the Bailey AFR is tremendously damped.  I've
viewed WB signals with a scope and actually been able to see individual
cylinder events.  Like the 4 gas, there's no way to isolate which cylinder
is misfiring from the pattern alone.

Shannen

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 05:46:30 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 02:46:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

--- Shannen Durphey  wrote:

> To be honest, a WB _can_ do the same thing.

I defy you to look at an instantaneous residual oxygen
reading that is lean past the end of the scale and
tell me whether the vehicle is A) not running, B)
incredibly lean, C) rich misfiring.

I can look at an instantaneous four-gas plot and tell
them apart with great ease.

> I've viewed WB signals with a scope and actually
been
> able to see individual cylinder events.

Since there's no way to separate out the exhaust gases
of an individual cylinder unless you pipe into a
manifold runner, I'm surprised to hear someone claim
that.

> Like the 4 gas, there's no way to isolate which
> cylinder is misfiring from the pattern alone.

If one cylinder is misfiring, the dignostic procedire
is quick and easy, just like it's always been (unless
it's an injector problem and you're running
sequential-fire).

I opted not to answer your other post about cooling,
since the pieces of it that were not already covered
with the opinions of others regarding cooling issues
were already responded to by myself in previous posts.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From patc at opposition.tv  Wed Dec 18 05:55:23 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 02:55:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] LSM11 Price
Message-ID: 


Message: 3
From: "JC" 
To: 
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:44:13 -0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] LSM-11 price
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org


Hi,

Does anyone know where I can get Bosch LSM-11 (0 258 104 002)sensor at a =
good price?

Thanks,

Jacky


I sell Bosch LSM11's as well as other performance EFI bits. Drop me a line
and I'll do you a deal. ;-)


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From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Dec 18 06:32:28 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 03:32:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

LOL!

The "instantaneous residual oxygen reading" is the output of the sensor,
which shows up as a voltage trace on my scope.  Since the scope plots in
time, I see a flat trace at a fixed voltage level when the engine is not
running.  Easy.

Rich running and lean running can look similar, but as a tuner in the same
room as the dyno, I can smell the difference between excess fuel and lack
of same to the point of misfire.  An engine running so rich that all
cylinders are misfiring is almost stalled, and as a tuner if I can't notice
this through other clues than I'm passed out or dead.

And I'm not separating the exhaust gasses out of individual cylinder.  I'm
viewing voltage generated as a feedback by the sensor driver's current pump
circuitry attempting to maintain fixed current flow across the sensor
element in the presence of rapidly changing differential oxygen
concentration.  There's more oxygen passing the sensor during the exhaust
pulse time than durinng the non pulse time.  Reducing scope sample time
sufficiently below the pulse duration will individual pulses.  Watching the
pulses as fueling swings across stoich during closed loop operation in a
feedback efi system, one can plainly see the voltage trend that's tracked
and displayed by tools such as the dynojet wide band display.

Diagnostic procedures for finding a misfire are easy, just like diagnostic
procedures for determining a sufficiently rich engine ( and thereby a
sufficiently lean one ) are easy.  In both cases you need to bring in
"outside" information.  

Shannen

Adam Wade wrote:
> 
> --- Shannen Durphey  wrote:
> 
> > To be honest, a WB _can_ do the same thing.
> 
> I defy you to look at an instantaneous residual oxygen
> reading that is lean past the end of the scale and
> tell me whether the vehicle is A) not running, B)
> incredibly lean, C) rich misfiring.
> 
> I can look at an instantaneous four-gas plot and tell
> them apart with great ease.
> 
> > I've viewed WB signals with a scope and actually
> been
> > able to see individual cylinder events.
> 
> Since there's no way to separate out the exhaust gases
> of an individual cylinder unless you pipe into a
> manifold runner, I'm surprised to hear someone claim
> that.
> 
> > Like the 4 gas, there's no way to isolate which
> > cylinder is misfiring from the pattern alone.
> 
> If one cylinder is misfiring, the dignostic procedire
> is quick and easy, just like it's always been (unless
> it's an injector problem and you're running
> sequential-fire).
> 
> I opted not to answer your other post about cooling,
> since the pieces of it that were not already covered
> with the opinions of others regarding cooling issues
> were already responded to by myself in previous posts.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 06:39:18 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 03:39:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

--- Shannen Durphey  wrote:

> The "instantaneous residual oxygen reading" is the
> output of the sensor,
> which shows up as a voltage trace on my scope. 

I was talking about a snapshot.  Static.  Thus,
"instantaneous".  I'm sorry that wasn't clear.

> Rich running and lean running can look similar,

Not with a four-gas they can't.

> but as a tuner in the same room as the dyno, I can
> smell the difference between excess fuel and lack
> of same to the point of misfire.

Maybe if you know the engine, and have already tuned a
few.  You can't "smell" whether an engine is rich or
lean any more than you can "smell" whether you have
optimal ignition timing.

> And I'm not separating the exhaust gasses out of
> individual cylinder.

But you claim you can tell me what cylinder is
producing a transient on your WBO2 (assuming it's
actually a measured transient, and not a source supply
fluctuation or RMI).

> Diagnostic procedures for finding a misfire are
> easy, just like diagnostic procedures for
> determining a sufficiently rich engine ( and thereby
> a sufficiently lean one ) are easy.  In both cases
> you need to bring in "outside" information.  

I suppose that depends on where you draw the line at
"outside".  Observing an engine at all bring in
"outside" information.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Dec 18 08:12:41 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 05:12:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

Adam Wade wrote:


> 
> I was talking about a snapshot.  Static.  Thus,
> "instantaneous".  I'm sorry that wasn't clear.
It was very clear.  The voltage reading at the sensor is instantaneous.  If
I find that multiple samples of the instantaneous reading remain unchanged,
I can conclude the engine is not running.  Or that the sensor is
non-functional, or that the scope is dead, or...

> Maybe if you know the engine, and have already tuned a
> few.  You can't "smell" whether an engine is rich or
> lean any more than you can "smell" whether you have
> optimal ignition timing.
Geez... you were just talking about a rich condition causing a misfire. 
That's an eye burner.  Even if it's only one cylinder the fumes are
noticeable.  Now you're talking about differences within the operating
range of the WB. 

> 
> > And I'm not separating the exhaust gasses out of
> > individual cylinder.
> 
> But you claim you can tell me what cylinder is
> producing a transient on your WBO2 (assuming it's
> actually a measured transient, and not a source supply
> fluctuation or RMI).

It's not likely contamination or fluctuation from the source, as the source
is external to the car and self contained.  A similar effect can be viewed
on a narrow band O2 around stoich, although it's nowhere near as useful. 
At least I haven't spent any time trying to make it useful.  I can't say
I've done all the testing I could to rule out noise, but I have tested to
see that the signal is similar on different vehicles, is viewable with more
than one scope, and is consistent with the cylinder firings as observed by
forcing a misfire and viewing the results.

And I specifically said that I could not tell which cylinder was causing
the problem based on scope readings alone.  I have not tried to diagnose a
misfire to the point where I can identify which cylinder is causing the
problem by using the WB alone, and do not claim to be able to do so.  But I
can and have used the readings to tell the difference between an overall
lean condition and a lean condition caused by a misfire on one or multiple
cylinders.  

Creative and intelligent people will find ways to get the most out of their
tools.  I'm not the type to simply look at the WB output and say "That's
all I can get?  Well, ok."  I'm not tuning a car in a static situation. 
I'm not in a lab or in a room with a computer printout and a calculator
working out how to tune this vehicle.  I'm an active part of the process,
and as such I'm allowed to use all the information that is available to
me.  I don't _have_ to look at a static reading to determine engine stall. 
If the car stops running, the engine stalled.  I don't _have_ to try and
determine whether the mixture is lean to misfire or rich to misfire from a
printout.  I'm right there next to the car when it happens.  

> I suppose that depends on where you draw the line at
> "outside".  

This looking like an issue over semantics.  

Shannen

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From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Wed Dec 18 09:54:28 2002
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 06:54:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #416 - 9 msgs
Message-ID: 

Mike,
    The data sheet says "Spherical micrometallic particles"
Both Lead and Copper micro spheres are in suspension in the grease or 
oil base (depending on the application).
Regards
Bill

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:25:22
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
From: Mike 
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Lubrication
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

is this the stuff that used to have micro lead clusters added
to engine oil ?

Or is it like the chlorinated parrafins used by bitron ?

rgds

mike

>  
>



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From alexis.pavlov at st.com  Wed Dec 18 10:32:09 2002
From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:32:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] New upload: Bosch EFI bins
Message-ID: 

Hi,

I've uploaded the Bosch_EFI.html file which is an index file
of other files that can be found in the
ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/incoming/
directory.

It would be fine if other people were able to overwrite the
Bosch_EFI.html file to update it in case of new uploaded bins.
I don't know if it's possible.

Alexis

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Wed Dec 18 10:41:01 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:41:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

I think you need to introduced to the long straight at Daytona up on the
banking.. No matter how heavy or light your car is you hit the aero wall so to
speak where it is on the floor and she won't go no faster... That is what a
brake will give you and you better be correct at that point. The better after
market stuff has tables and corrections for what gear you are in. You can and
should change timing fueling and boost according what gear you are in as it
compensates for the relative load on the engine.
Dave

Shannen Durphey wrote:

> Using a braking type dyno to tune a car for WOT can produce misleading
> results.  A lightweight car with a high power to weight ratio would
> typically never see the same load and duration that can be applied with a
> brake type dyno.  Running up to a specific rpm and holding that rpm while
> fuel and spark are tuned in will tend to heat parts more than they would be
> heated in "normal" operation.  The consequences can be more fuel/ less
> spark than optimal get dialed into the final tune.  Power may be down, fuel
> consumption may be up, or both can occur.  The inertial loads alone provide
> more than enough resistance to provide an acceptable street and competition
> tune for these vehicles.
>


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Wed Dec 18 11:02:04 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:02:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

Not to pick on you but I can hear two of thse events pretty easy..
A)It is too quiet in the dyno room
B) When in doubt add some fuel
C)Pop pop pop pop...
Dave
Adam Wade wrote:
> 
> --- Shannen Durphey  wrote:
> 
> > To be honest, a WB _can_ do the same thing.
> 
> I defy you to look at an instantaneous residual oxygen
> reading that is lean past the end of the scale and
> tell me whether the vehicle is A) not running, B)
> incredibly lean, C) rich misfiring.
>


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 11:11:11 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:11:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

--- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:

> Not to pick on you but I can hear two of thse events
> pretty easy..

Ahh, I didn't say they were undetectable, or even HARD
to detect...  I was just illustrating a point for our
friend there.  ;)

If tuning required a lot of black boxes for it to EVER
happen, we'd never have been able to tune before the
black boxes got here.

The idea of any tool is to make our jobs easier. 
Choose the best tool for the job, given your goals and
limitations.  Everything else becomes an academic exercise.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Wed Dec 18 11:20:35 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:20:35 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

I agree completely I tune after market stuff for a living and have done that for
the last 10 years or so.. Before that it was mechanical injection and carbs
still do a few of those from time to time but have no real interest in the old
stuff. It is all about what you do with what you have and how much the tuner
pays attention to what is really going on. 

Dave

Adam Wade wrote:

> 
> If tuning required a lot of black boxes for it to EVER
> happen, we'd never have been able to tune before the
> black boxes got here.
> 
> The idea of any tool is to make our jobs easier.
> Choose the best tool for the job, given your goals and
> limitations.  Everything else becomes an academic exercise.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Wed Dec 18 14:22:04 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:22:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] way off topic -- 4gas, wideband, brake dyno, aftermarket  efi... wow
Message-ID: 

> > Apex'i Power FC + Commander -- anyone ever have any experience with it?
Now
> > this is *WAY OT*
> No, actually it's right on charter.

The PowerFC is hardly "DIY" ??


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From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Dec 18 14:23:35 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:23:35 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Point taken.  I may yet be introduced to that situation.  But what we're
talking about now, tuning a car to run at Daytona, is a long ways removed
from what most of the guys on this list will ever do.  I could say that
your situation is not typical and isn't what the majority of chassis dyno
tuning involves. 

Not all shops with chassis dynos are tuning shops.  Some only offer a dyno
and their operator, rent out the tools so to speak.  Many of the DIY guys
here will get on a dyno for the first time to tune their own car or their
friend's car, and be blown away by all the stuff going on.  In the process
of tuning, they'll take a bunch of time to get dialed in.  I stand by my
warning that using a braking type dyno can give a less than optimum tune,
and I stand behind my reasoning why.

And the question wasn't even addressed, how do you decide "right?"  I'm not
asking about the actual tuning process.  I'm saying that you tune for
durability vs power.  It's pretty common for guys to give up some
durability to make more power on a short track.  If you've tuned the engine
to live longer, you're trading some power.  If you're getting passed
because of that decision, it was the wrong "right."  Yet again the tune for
the long, heavy load isn't optimum for the short, light load.

Gear and load corrections can be a good thing.  Understanding how or even
if these corrections are included in factory calibrations can be a
challenge.  I've been looking at modifying the code in my ecm to adjust
boost control based on engine acceleration rates and the boost rise time. 
It currently uses a table of fixed "duty cycle vs rpm" values to apply to
the boost control circuit.  Every change to the hardware requires a table
rework.  Using engine acceleration and the change in boost over time will
allow the ecm to do a better job of predicting where the boost will be at a
given rpm.

Shannen



Dave Dahlgren wrote:
> 
> I think you need to introduced to the long straight at Daytona up on the
> banking.. No matter how heavy or light your car is you hit the aero wall so to
> speak where it is on the floor and she won't go no faster... That is what a
> brake will give you and you better be correct at that point. The better after
> market stuff has tables and corrections for what gear you are in. You can and
> should change timing fueling and boost according what gear you are in as it
> compensates for the relative load on the engine.
> Dave
> 
> Shannen Durphey wrote:
> 
> > Using a braking type dyno to tune a car for WOT can produce misleading
> > results.  A lightweight car with a high power to weight ratio would
> > typically never see the same load and duration that can be applied with a
> > brake type dyno.  Running up to a specific rpm and holding that rpm while
> > fuel and spark are tuned in will tend to heat parts more than they would be
> > heated in "normal" operation.  The consequences can be more fuel/ less
> > spark than optimal get dialed into the final tune.  Power may be down, fuel
> > consumption may be up, or both can occur.  The inertial loads alone provide
> > more than enough resistance to provide an acceptable street and competition
> > tune for these vehicles.
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Wed Dec 18 14:29:07 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:29:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

A question -- couldn't one test at less than WOT on an inertial dyno
(Dynojet) to get different load conditions?  Would this be possible?
Beneficial?  You could "guesstimate" constant throttle position by looking
at the output of something like a TPS sensor and trying to hold that as
constant as possible... you could also probably jury rig something on the
throttle with some kind of electromechanical device to get a constant
throttle position (servo or something).... am I talking nonsense?


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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Wed Dec 18 14:31:07 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (A6intruder)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:31:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 


I understand that the 4-gas gives more info than a WB, but for those that
don't have access to a 4-gas a WB can still be very useful.

Below you discuss that the WB changes as you change timing at a given data
point.  Of course it does, the WB is only reporting what it observes.  If
you change timing from "way-off-rich" to "optimum" you will see the WB
report a leaning A/F trend as it should, you just improved combustion by
changing the timing, not the actual A/F.  Now you will have to decide if
your resulting do have to change A/F again to achieve your A/F goal.

My only point of entering the discussion is for those without a 4-gas not to
discount the usefulness of a WB.  You DO have to understand what it is
actually telling you and tune accordingly.

Thanks for a great discussion thread, this one has been very interesting!

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Adam Wade
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:54 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs

--- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:

> Over the last 20 years I have not found this to be
> true at all.

.

> The NTK wide band will read richer with the same
> amount of fuel and if timing is advanced to optimal
> it indicates leaner to the point I am tempted to add
> more fuel.

Which is why I don't use an O2 sensor of any sort for
tuning on a dyno.  While it is a fine toold for what
it is, it cannot give nearly the depth of data that a
four-gas analyzer can.  It won't indicate rich or lean
if the timing is not optimal.  In fact, with training
in what to look for, it is possible to see when a
single cylinder is rich or lean from the rest
(although you cannot tell which one unless you have
probe ports in each runner of the exhaust manifold.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Wed Dec 18 14:47:12 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:47:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] way off topic -- 4gas, wideband, brake dyno, aftermarket  efi... wow
Message-ID: 

'The DIY-EFI list has been in existence since May 1994, and is for =
discussion of all aspects of electronic fuel injection, engine =
management, and related topics. '

Quote from www.diy-efi.org

So yes, its right on charter

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Erik Jacobs [mailto:emj14 at columbia.edu]
Sent: 18 December 2002 14:21
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] way off topic -- 4gas, wideband, brake dyno,
aftermarket efi... wow


> > Apex'i Power FC + Commander -- anyone ever have any experience with =
it?
Now
> > this is *WAY OT*
> No, actually it's right on charter.

The PowerFC is hardly "DIY" ??


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From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Dec 18 14:56:44 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:56:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

Lol.  

The four gas provides a frame of reference for the oxygen levels based on
the concentrations of HC and CO in the exhaust.  It's more useful with less
work than the O2 sensor by itself.  Average oxygen concentration alone
won't show the differences between excessively rich, excessively lean, and
stalled.  So I gave an HC level as a reference.  By the time the mixture
gets rich beyond the sensor's range, the HC's stink.  You don't _need_ to
have an expensive analyzer to notice that.  And I showed that I could use
my equipment by itself to detect one of the 3 conditions, stalled.  And I
mentioned that the O2 levels and the readings they represent on some of the
available equipment I've used _is_ averaged, that it's possible to get more
information from the sensor than what's provided by the WB display.

While you're busy telling the local car club how much better a purpose
designed car is for a specific job, I'm saying that there are ways to get
more out of the cars they have, and that there are tradeoffs to be aware of
no matter what type of ride they choose.  

Shannen

Adam Wade wrote:
> 
> --- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
> 
> > Not to pick on you but I can hear two of thse events
> > pretty easy..
> 
> Ahh, I didn't say they were undetectable, or even HARD
> to detect...  I was just illustrating a point for our
> friend there.  ;)
> 
> If tuning required a lot of black boxes for it to EVER
> happen, we'd never have been able to tune before the
> black boxes got here.
> 
> The idea of any tool is to make our jobs easier.
> Choose the best tool for the job, given your goals and
> limitations.  Everything else becomes an academic exercise.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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From rjp at teknology.net  Wed Dec 18 15:56:01 2002
From: rjp at teknology.net (Phil)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:56:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel DFI w/ BDS Blower......
Message-ID: 

Didn't someone just post a question here regarding anyone having experience
with the Gen 6 Accel DFI engine management being used with the 16 nozzle
BDS setup? I wanted to answer, but I must have deleted the post
inadvertently.

Does this person want to chime in again? Does anyone have a copy of that
post? Thank ya! =)

Cheers!
-Phil


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From sravet at arm.com  Wed Dec 18 16:20:25 2002
From: sravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:20:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] New upload: Bosch EFI bins
Message-ID: 

It can't be overwritten in the incoming directory but if anyone wants to
update it in the future then just send it directly to me.  I'll be
moving this BTW to the OEM section of the WWW page under Bosch so people
can find it.  Thanks a lot Alexis for putting this together.

--steve

Alexei Pavlov wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I've uploaded the Bosch_EFI.html file which is an index file
> of other files that can be found in the
> ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/incoming/
> directory.
> 
> It would be fine if other people were able to overwrite the
> Bosch_EFI.html file to update it in case of new uploaded bins.
> I don't know if it's possible.
> 
> Alexis


-- 
Steve Ravet
steve.ravet at arm.com
ARM,Inc.
www.arm.com

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From evotech at b-online.gr  Wed Dec 18 16:28:33 2002
From: evotech at b-online.gr (Ioannis Andrianakis)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:28:33 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Concerning the point of tuning on the road being better than tuning with a
steady state dyno I would like to ask some questions based on my
observations.
When trying to get the best performance by road tuning, which gear ratio do
you optimise for? I know that if I optimise fuel and ignition for 2nd gear,
the performance of 4th gear will be far from optimum. Do you let the car
cool down between runs? Stationary or by low load cruising?So you come to
the same point as using a dyno that you have to compromise between the
different needs of the engine at same rpm and throttle oppenings but
different acceleration ratios and history. Unless your car is a racecar and
you have an ecu that can be mapped for every gear and a dyno to simulate the
whole race and datalogging to check you performance then your tune is not
ideal, its close but not ideal. The more experience and data you have the
closer you can get. I have found that using a brake dyno(dynapack) and
steady state tuning to get the map close and fixed acceleration ratio ramp
tests(approximating road acceleration ratios) to optimise, I can get close.
That is championship winning close. But still I dont know how far from ideal
I am. Wish I had more time,money and tools to achive a better tune.
Regards,
Ioannis Andrianakis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shannen Durphey" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs


>
>
> Adam Wade wrote:
> >
> > --- Shannen Durphey  wrote:
>
> > > A lightweight car with a high power to weight ratio
> > > would typically never see the same load and duration
> > > that can be applied with a brake type dyno.
> >
> > How do you figure?
> Easy.  Using the dyno, I can apply enough load to keep a 200hp Honda at
> 1500 rpm indefinitely.  Unless it's hooked to a trailer full of horses,
> there's no way that Honda will see the same load for the same amount of
> time on the street.  It only passes through that point in a fraction of a
> second on its way to "somehwere else."
>
> > All that power goes into
> > overcoming aerodynamic drag, and either you accelerate
> > with it, or you reach a steady state where the power
> > produced is equal to the load from drag.  If you can
> > add more braking with a brake, the rpms drop.  With an
> > eddy current brake, anyway, you hold a certain rpm
> > with a certain throttle position, and map for that
> > load.  Max load given by the brake should be WOT at
> > best horsepower; no more.  One can certainly expect
> > the vehicle to obtain that loading condition at some
> > point in its life.
>
> Are you considering time?  It's the "at some point" that makes the
> difference.  As a wild example, consider the dyno load causing the engine
> to take 5 minutes to reach 1500 rpm vs the same engine getting to 1500 rpm
> in a second on the street.  There's going to be a lot more heat produced
> during the 5 minute pull than the one  second run.  The longer the
engine's
> exposed to heat, the more the heads will heat up, the cooling system will
> heat up, radiator, engine comp't...  After 5 minutes of dyno run time you
> can bet engine conditions aren't the same as the "real world."
>
> A different example:  Set the brake to maintain a specific rpm.  We can
> accelerate to close to that rpm with minimal effort, and we can stab the
> throttle right as we get to that rpm.  The perfect dyno will hold exactly
> enough brake to maintain that rpm.  So now you're running at the desired
> rpm.  You have to take readings, maybe change settings.  How long does
this
> take?  10 seconds?  5? 2?  How does this time compare to the time the enge
> spends at that rpm and load when it's not tied down?  How much more do you
> heat the engine?
>
> >
> > > Running up to a specific rpm and holding that rpm
> > > while fuel and spark are tuned in will tend to heat
> > > parts more than they would be heated in "normal"
> > > operation.
> >
> > I disagree.  Unless you're talking about a
> > grocery-getter.  And in any case, you will get the
> > conditions in component heating in the real world that
> > you would on the dyno (give or take a small margin),
> No, give or take a large margin.
>
> How about a different example. If we can think of a vehicle as a dyno,
then
> we can consider the difference between a heavy, loaded truck and a
> lightweight car with the same engine.  The truck spends more time at WOT
> with rpm changing less.  It builds more heat in the chambers, at  the
> plugs, in the cooling system.  If we are tuning this truck, then we see
> that as heat increases the tendency for detonation increases.  We both
know
> there are ways to fix this.  We can adjust spark and fuel to prevent the
> heating/detonation from occurring.  And when we're done, the calibration
we
> end up with is safe for the vehicle.
>
> The problem occurs if the engine is taken from the heavily loaded truck
and
> placed into the lighter car.  There are few clues to tell you the
> calibration could be better.  There's certainly little sign that fueling
or
> spark is wrong.  Depending on when you look, you might catch clues from
the
> plugs. But fuel and spark are not really "wrong."  It's just that they
> could be better.
>
> > assuming you have adequate cooling in the dyno room;
>
> Cooling is a big part of the issue.  Maybe this will help.  Compared to a
> bike, you could think of a car as having inadequate cooling on the street,
> and usually less in the dyno room.
>
> > > The consequences can be more fuel/ less spark than
> > > optimal get dialed into the final tune.
> >
> > Again, a number of years of fairly constant
> > dyno-tuning experience with motorcycles disagrees with
> > that assessment.   Again, though, the dyno rooms I was
> > using were either outdoors with very hugh-flow fans
> > and ducting, or with exceptional exhaust fans indoors.
> Consider the mass of the engines you're tuning.  Think of the airflow
> around the engine, the size of the cooling system versus the size of the
> engine, the materials the engine is made from.  I'm not going to say this
> is fact, but I'd bet it's a far cry easier to remove heat from a finned
> head, relatively open chassis bike engine than from a car's or truck's
> engine.
>
>
> >  Temperatures are constantly checked while tuning, and
> > are almost exclusively found to be normal operating
> > temperatures.  Very few real-world tuning changes need
> > to be made after leaving the dyno
>
> Not trying to be a prick, but how do you know?  What I mean is, are you
> looking for signs that something is wrong, or signs that something is
> right?  It's awful hard to find a clue that things are performing at their
> best.  Even the top dawgs know their stuff is only working better than the
> guy at #2.
>
> >
> > > The inertial loads alone provide more than enough
> > > resistance to provide an acceptable street and
> > > competition tune for these vehicles.
> >
> > I suppose it depends on what you consider
> > "acceptable".
> Point taken.
>
> > At the AMA Superbike races, losing
> > isn't considered acceptable, which is why even teams
> > sponsored by Dynojet often get their bikes tuned on
> > eddy-curent dynos trackside.
>
> Ok, but racers are paranoid.  Smokey Yunick once said something like "If I
> showed up at the track one week with dog turd on my hood, next week
> everyone would have dog turd on their hoods."  To be fair, if I wanted to
> make changes to my car on Race Day, and I'd found that an eddy current
> dyno, or an inertial dyno, or a bag of angry cats tied to the fuel cell
> gave me results that I trusted, then that's what I'd use at the track.
The
> game is different on race day.
>
>
>
> > My experience has been
> > that any motorcycle tuned by anyone on a Dynojet dyno
> > can be tuned better on an eddy-current dyno, and I've
> > yet to see that belief disproven.
> Are you saying that you've back to back tuned between different types of
> dynos, or are you comparing stories with other people, or are you judging
> by bikes that others have tuned which you're retuning?
>
> I plead no contest to this example.  I can't prove true or not true.  But
> for the general implication that a tune will be better on a specific type
> of braking dyno because of the type of dyno, I say there are  exceptions.
>
> >
> > ...time, energy and money wasted, IMHO.
> Agreed, 100%
>
>
> > Well, so far in this thread we've had one person with
> > experience explain that changing the ignition timing
> > can change the reading on a WBO2 sensor, without
> > changing the fueling.
>
> Now you have two people with experience saying it's true.  But it's
> important to understand why and when this will happen.  Changing timing
> changes the start of the burn and affects the end of the burn.  You can
> easily push some of the reaction into the exhaust pipes by playing with
> timing.  Since the O2 sensor measures oxygen between the exhaust and the
> fresh air, it will "see" an increase in the amount of oxygen in the
exhaust
> as a change in AFR.  The closer the sensor is to the exhaust ports, the
> more oxygen it will see, and the more it will be affected by timing
> changes.  At the end of a street car exhaust, all this "outside"
combustion
> is done.  I've actually heard one guy claim that changing from 100 octane
> race fuel to street fuel richened his mixture.  It seemed less of a
miracle
> after I checked O2 sensor location.
>
>
> > And it's pretty well-known that
> > plug chops tell you if you have the right heat range
> > plug for the engine and fueling, and nothing more.
> > You CANNOT use plug chops for effective tuning unless
> > you ALREADY KNOW that you have the optimal heat range
> > for your engine.  THEN they can tell you something.
>
> I don't agree with that.  If you pick a plug, and run it, and it shows
> lean, you can add fuel.  If the car's speed/response/power falls, you can
> add timing.  By doing this you will find the optimum fuel and spark for
> that plug.  Switch to a colder or hotter plug and try again.  When you're
> done, you will have found the optimum fuel/spark for each plug, and the
> trend of times/ speeds will point to one or two plugs as optimum.  It does
> work, but it's slow.  My point was that it's a tool just like the WB.
>
> > Er, who said anything to that effect?  IF you're
> > assigning those ideas to me, you've significantly
> > misread what I was saying.
>
> My apologies.  You were advocating moving the wideband closer to the ports
> to reduce delays in sensor readings.  I thought you were saying that the
> delay was a "bad thing."
>
> >
> > > For many, many street cars, WB + inertial dyno +
> > > competent tuner is very satisfactory.
> >
>
> > Would I rather spend my money on an eddy current dyno
> > with a four-gas?  Absolutely.
> There ya go.
>
> I did my own comparison years ago between inertial dynos and braking
dynos,
> and braking won.  I also have issues with the Dynojet user interface, but
> that's a different story.  But I think it's important to make the
> distinction (and you have) between bench racing dynos and the general
> usefuleness of any type of dyno.  Every step forward is a good one, and
the
> more "the consumer" becomes aware of what it takes to make a good
> calibration, the less likely he will be to support vendors that sell junk.
> Getting guys onto a dyno is a big step toward furthering that
> understanding.
>
> Shannen
>
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From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Dec 18 16:56:04 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:56:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

It's harder to get consistent back to back tests for comparison by just
pushing the throttle "part way."  The mechanical stop would be one answer. 
Logging MAP vs RPM while doing this can help to fill in VE table entries. 
But it's tough to work on low speed driveability and around town type
operation using a strictly inertial dyno.  

With VE tables set up in 2 or 3 axes, you want to find a method to work
through the table in an ordered fashion.  A good method is to vary rpm at a
fixed MAP and/ or TPS, or to vary MAP and/ or TPS at a fixed rpm.  The
problem is the unbraked inertial dyno can always accelerate.  Once the
engine rpm stabilizes, fixed throttle gives much less load than normal
(very little, actually).  You cannot maintain a specific rpm and put
significant load on the engine to represent steady state cruise.  You need
to work against the fixed mass  provided by the drum, and you need to
accelerate that mass to create a load.

The question for driveability is "what are you tuning for?"  A minimum
requirement would be acceptable throttle response, maximum fuel economy,
and the perception that the engine's running correctly.  If the vehicle is
subject to emissions regs, then emissions will be first and foremost in the
list of tuning goals, and the 4 gas analyzer and load type dyno will
probably be used for testing.  For economy, one can watch power output and
indicated AFR at a fixed tps to get closer to maximum efficiency.  Since
the drums are accelerating, response or throttle crispness can be roughly
estimated by watching the time it takes to go from one rpm to another at
that fixed throttle angle.  This type of tuning would take a significant
time and when all is said and done, the calibration would probably need
more tuning on the street.  Still, if I were paying for dyno time, and had
some time left over, and felt that I had most of my WOT and high MAP tuning
done, I might try a few runs with a throttle stop installed to at least
rough in the bottom of the tables.  

I feel it's easier to judge the result of the driveability tune by watching
for reduction in TPS or by watching fuel consumption at a given power
output and rpm, or by watching the power required to maintain a specific
load at a fixed throttle angle and rpm.  In other words, it's easier to do
it with a braking dyno than an inertial dyno. 

Shannen

Erik Jacobs wrote:
> 
> A question -- couldn't one test at less than WOT on an inertial dyno
> (Dynojet) to get different load conditions?  Would this be possible?
> Beneficial?  You could "guesstimate" constant throttle position by looking
> at the output of something like a TPS sensor and trying to hold that as
> constant as possible... you could also probably jury rig something on the
> throttle with some kind of electromechanical device to get a constant
> throttle position (servo or something).... am I talking nonsense?
> 
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From r71chevy at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 18 16:58:22 2002
From: r71chevy at earthlink.net (r71chevy at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:58:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel DFI w/ BDS Blower......
Message-ID: 

Phil,

I dont recall seeing it here, but someone just posted a question about it on
the ChevyTalk EFI BB. 
http://www.chevytalk.org/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=EFI/Fuel+Injection+and+Engine+Control+Systems&number=12&DaysPrune=20&LastLogin=


BW



On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:58:48 -0500 Phil  wrote:

> Didn't someone just post a question here
> regarding anyone having experience
> with the Gen 6 Accel DFI engine management
> being used with the 16 nozzle
> BDS setup? I wanted to answer, but I must have
> deleted the post
> inadvertently.
> 
> Does this person want to chime in again? Does
> anyone have a copy of that
> post? Thank ya! =)
> 
> Cheers!
> -Phil
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From cell at x-dsl.hu  Wed Dec 18 17:05:47 2002
From: cell at x-dsl.hu (Marcell Gal)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:05:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Dyno
Message-ID: 

Hi Guys,

> An inertial dyno is, for example, a dynojet??

I do not know. However, if I had to make a dyno
and didn't have the large electromotor/generator
for it on the shelf, I would use (maybe trucks') disk-brakes.
Measuring the rpm is straightforward. 
Measuring the M (Nm) is not that difficult if we 
measure the force (mechanically fixed electronic scales
attached to the fixed parts).
Energy would be dissipated to heat of course, and
the brakes should be cooled somehow 
(fans and spilling water maybe?)
Maybe some hydraulics (electronically controlled valves)
could be involved if we need
to maintain a constant M or (rpm), not just as-is....

How does this sound? I've made similar measurements
on electromotors in the kW range, never on cars or
in the 100 kW range though.

   Marcell

- drum-brakes are better for telling the arm of force,
worse for cooling. Maybe some homemade brakes
would be the best, where steel stifts would be pushed against
the outer cylindrical surface of some large perimeter disks 
(sorry for my poor English)

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From brian.j.geddes at intel.com  Wed Dec 18 17:39:40 2002
From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:39:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

I was already thinking that what you describe below was true - good to =
get confirmation.  I'm running a '90's designed 6-cylinder turbocharged =
engine (6G72, Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4) with over 1 bar of boost, so I'm =
guessing that I'll reach the ping limit at boost well before the torque =
limit. =20

- Brian


Further a few words to timing advance. Engines of newer conception (4V, =
=3D
central spark plug, CR~11) will have at loads lower than 50-70% their =
=3D
best advance before "pinging". At full load, knock limit is always the =
=3D
best.

		--- so long ---, klaus.


There also remains a problem with late model 4valve engines in that some =
of
them hardly detonate at all! I have seen Mazda MX5 (Miata) engines on =
the
dyno which don't ping, or at least give no indication of pre ignition
audibly with well over 40 deg advance, WOT and max. torque. The only
indication was a drastic reduction in power.

I have also seen one F3 engine builder destroy dozens of Mitsubishi =
engines
(4G63 I think) before they got the timing right. Part of the reason was =
that
the dyno guys had trouble figuring out where the ping limit was. Then =
when
they installed the engine and it was subjected to ram effect through the =
air
box, Kabang! Admittedly, these engines run air restrictors and CR's in =
the
region of 13:1, so getting the ignition map right is an art form in =
itself.

The really clever engine builders (Neil Brown, Speiss Tuning) use the =
method
prescribed by Klaus. But the cost of the test equipment is horrific.

Just a word of caution for anyone trying this theory with modern 4valve =
N/A
engines, that's all.


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 18:00:44 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:00:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

> A question -- couldn't one test at less than WOT on
> an inertial dyno (Dynojet) to get different load
> conditions?

Kinda.  ;)  As you get closer and closer to a
load/speed site that makes exactly the power that the
drum loads via inertia, the more accurate your power
reading (and tune) become.  How far from optimal it
ever is is another story.  And it's significantly more
of a pain trying to tune for a load/speed site when
the engine never stays there.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 18:03:30 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:03:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Shannen Durphey  wrote:

> tuning a car to run at Daytona, is a long ways
> removed from what most of the guys on this list will
> ever do.

You think people should not tune the entire available
map in the ECU?  For what reason?

> I stand by my warning that using a braking type dyno
> can give a less than optimum tune,

If you follow the instructions with the software, it
will always give a better tune than an inertial dyno.

> I'm saying that you tune for durability vs power.

How does one tune for "durability"?  In fact, how does
one even measure it?

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Wed Dec 18 18:04:17 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:04:17 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

> How does one tune for "durability"?  In fact, how does
> one even measure it?

You measure durability in how many times your engine blows up on the
inertial dyno.

Unfortunately the brake dyno (eddy current or otherwise) does not seem to be
capable of this high-quality durability testing.




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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Wed Dec 18 18:06:21 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:06:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

> > A question -- couldn't one test at less than WOT on
> > an inertial dyno (Dynojet) to get different load
> > conditions?
>
> Kinda.  ;)  As you get closer and closer to a
> load/speed site that makes exactly the power that the
> drum loads via inertia, the more accurate your power
> reading (and tune) become.  How far from optimal it
> ever is is another story.  And it's significantly more
> of a pain trying to tune for a load/speed site when
> the engine never stays there.

well my argument was more aimed at reaching other portions of the ECU map
than the WOT curve, which is typically all you test when you do a dyno pull.
It seems that if your ECU was using separate mappings for WOT and otherwise
(as most factory ECUs do), that you would never really get to "test" your
non-WOT mappings out with an inertial dyno.

On a side note, is there anyone in the states who uses brake dynos capable
of 300ish WHP??  I know there are plenty of Dynojets floating around.. but
how many brake types are out there and in the hands of good tuners??


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 18:16:46 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:16:46 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- A6intruder  wrote:

> I understand that the 4-gas gives more info than a
> WB, but for those that don't have access to a 4-gas
> a WB can still be very useful.

It can also be misleading if you are not careful.  I
would say it is substantially better than nothing for
roughing in a map, and is useful to varying degrees in
a number of different tuning situations.  However, for
adjusting fueling, your BEST tool will always be
residual CO, over residual O2.

> Below you discuss that the WB changes as you change
> timing at a given data point.  Of course it does,
> the WB is only reporting what it observes.

Fair enough, as long as you can somehow figure out
what optimal fueling is based on knowledge of the
behavior and your timing map.  For my dollar, it's far
easier to get a single quick reading that can tell me
a very great deal without having to guess or
calculate.  Since I doubt any of us own or build our
own dynos, we all rent time on them.  For that reason,
I would recommend renting time on one that gives you
the best "bang for your buck", if you wish to run on
one.

> Now you will have to decide if your resulting do
> have to change A/F again to achieve your A/F goal.

Exactly.  My point was that with a four-gas, you can
tune for best fueling, even if the vehicle could make
better power via timing changes.  It makes it a LOT
quicker for many people when on the dyno.

> My only point of entering the discussion is for
> those without a 4-gas not to discount the usefulness
> of a WB.

Again, understood.  More of a "horses for courses"
argument on my part, and I think I've already
mentioned the utility of the device more than once.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 18:18:38 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:18:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

--- Shannen Durphey  wrote:

> By the time the mixture gets rich beyond the
> sensor's range, the HC's stink.

I've already answered this one.  It was an example to
illustrate a point in any case.  I'm sorry that seems
to have been lost on you.

> While you're busy telling the local car club how
> much better a purpose designed car is for a specific
> job,

I have no clue what you are claiming.  I've never said
or believed any such thing.


=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 18:27:45 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:27:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Ioannis Andrianakis  wrote:

> When trying to get the best performance by road
> tuning, which gear ratio do you optimise for?

When dealing with the actual load/speed base map, I
tend to tune at the highest load possible (i.e.,
highest gear).  This tends to amplify symptoms of any
problems.

When testing "accelerator pump" maps, I test in lower
gears (2nd, say), as those maps are designed for
transient response, and the load on the vehicle
doesn't change as fast, nor will manifold vacuum drop
as much, at higher road speeds.

> Do you let the car cool down between runs?

As long as it is not overheating, no.  You want the
temperatures to be as consistent as possible.  To that
end, simply warm it up thoroughly before doing any
critical work (true on the dyno or the road).

> Stationary

I've found stationary, "no-load" testing tells very
little.

> So you come to the same point as using a dyno that
> you have to compromise between the different needs
> of the engine at same rpm and throttle oppenings but
> different acceleration ratios and history.

I can only speak for motorcycles, but even with ram
air systems, I've never found a "compromise" per se. 
I've found that sometimes you can make things a bit
better at the ends of the scale by having separate
mapping in some cases.  Ultimately, you have to
determine what is important to you; ease of tuning,
perfect "best power" everywhere and all the time,
economy, emissions...  Each has their place. 
Obviously, an acceleration map that is varied for
different gearings would perform better.

> Unless your car is a racecar and you have an ecu
> that can be mapped for every gear

I think most ECUs can be made to have the capacity for
such mapping (i.e., there's capability in the hardware
and enough room in the EPROM), while many don't
implement that.  It's certainly extra work to map an
ECU like that, but I don't think you need a racecar to
make it practical.

> and a dyno to simulate the whole race and
> datalogging to check you performance then your tune
> is not ideal, its close but not ideal.

Maybe I din't express this clearly in previous posts;
there's no such thing as an "ideal" way to tune. 
There are simply a lot of different methods and tools,
and what combination of those things is closer to your
goals than another is "better" for you and your
application.

> I have found that using a brake dyno(dynapack) and
> steady state tuning to get the map close and fixed
> acceleration ratio ramp tests(approximating road
> acceleration ratios) to optimise, I can get close.
> That is championship winning close.

My experiences are similar.

> But still I dont know how far from ideal I am.

Unfortunately, until we can take a series of very
accurate "snapshots" of exactly what is going on
inside the combustion chamber, we may never be truly
"sure".  Most such equipment does exist; it's simply
outside the reach of any but the best manufacturer and
research test installations.

> Wish I had more time,money and tools to achive
> a better tune.

I think we all do.  If we didn't want to know more,
and learn more, and do a better job, most of us
wouldn't be here.  ;)  Even me!  ;)

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From dan_dandrea at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 18 18:28:31 2002
From: dan_dandrea at hotmail.com (Dan D'Andrea)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:28:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel DFI w/ BDS Blower......
Message-ID: 

>Didn't someone just post a question here regarding anyone having experience
>with the Gen 6 Accel DFI engine management being used with the 16 nozzle
>BDS setup? I wanted to answer, but I must have deleted the post 
>inadvertently.

>Does this person want to chime in again? Does anyone have a copy of that
>post? Thank ya! =)

>Cheers!
>-Phil

Phil,

Try the archives :)  http://www.diy-efi.org/list_search.html

--Dan


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 18:36:52 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:36:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

> You measure durability in how many times your engine
> blows up on the inertial dyno.

*laughs*  Sort of a crude (and dangerous!) method... 
If if blows up at ALL, something is VERY wrong with
it.  ;)  Assuming reasonable cooling, etc.  Of course,
if you are building a race engine and your primary
concerns are light weight and and high power, you may
compromise a bit on that...  But motorcycle engine
construction tells us it can be done without
reliability issues.

> Unfortunately the brake dyno (eddy current or
> otherwise) does not seem to be capable of this high-
> quality durability testing.

Oh, maybe that has been my problem all along, then!  ;)

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From rjp at teknology.net  Wed Dec 18 18:41:40 2002
From: rjp at teknology.net (Phil)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:41:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel DFI w/ BDS Blower......
Message-ID: 

Thanks Dan. I think the guy that posted this question on the BB that
r71chevy directed me to is the same guy that posted it here earlier. I'll
try to help him out over there since probably no one here has any interest
in the big 'ol BDS lung tuning. =)

Cheers!
Phil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan D'Andrea" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Accel DFI w/ BDS Blower......


> >Didn't someone just post a question here regarding anyone having
experience
> >with the Gen 6 Accel DFI engine management being used with the 16 nozzle
> >BDS setup? I wanted to answer, but I must have deleted the post
> >inadvertently.
>
> >Does this person want to chime in again? Does anyone have a copy of that
> >post? Thank ya! =)
>
> >Cheers!
> >-Phil
>
> Phil,
>
> Try the archives :)  http://www.diy-efi.org/list_search.html
>
> --Dan
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
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>


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 18:42:03 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:42:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

> my argument was more aimed at reaching other
> portions of the ECU map than the WOT curve, which is
> typically all you test when you do a dyno pull.

On an inertial dyno.  And even for that, it's not a
GREAT tool, simply because it never loads the engine
fully at any given speed/load site.

> It seems that if your ECU was using separate
> mappings for WOT and otherwise (as most factory ECUs
> do), that you would never really get to "test" your
> non-WOT mappings out with an inertial dyno.

I've not been inside TOO many factory ECUs outside of
some older Bosch stuff and almost everything used on
motorcycles, but I would not say they use separate
mapping for "everything else".  Most have a load/speed
table, and then modifiers for acceleration, coolant
temp, air temp, warmup, blah blah blah...  In some
variation.  One even has naught but a single table,
and then which sites picked off the table is adjusted
by temperature sensor inputs!

But yes, trying to map the table for best power output
(or emissions, or what have you) using something
without an adjustable load is quite more difficult.

> On a side note, is there anyone in the states who
> uses brake dynos capable of 300ish WHP?

You mean, on the list?  In general?  Are you looking
for one to use?

> but how many brake types are out there and in the
> hands of good tuners??

I'd wager a "not very many" guess.  If you know
someone with a spare $50,000 who wants to have one,
though, I can put the people together.  ;)  Then
there's the dyno room on top of that, of course...

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Wed Dec 18 18:42:13 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:42:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Help me here. How can you reach the ping limit before the torque limit. If it
pings you are at the torque limit for the fuel you are running. Are you saying
that if you had better fuel it would not ping and therefore make more torque.
Seems nonsensical. I have tuned the Mazda Miata engine for SCCA GT racing.
Granted we had good fuel but as a restricted engine best power on a water brake
dyno was at around 32 degrees. You could put more in it but no power came out.
Why bother carrying a load of timing if it does not make the torque meter go up.
It might have a couple of more degrees in first and second gear only but that
would probably be the end of the mapping changes from the dyno. From the years
of dyno time I have logged you could always slowly add timing to the point the
power did not go up if you added a degree or two more it stayed the same and any
more it goes down. The place in my mind to stop is the point where it adds no
more power not the place where it makes no difference. You can always add a
little in the lower gears to make the car snappier and then still be fine for a
top gear pull on a long straight.
Dave

"Geddes, Brian J" wrote:
> 
> I was already thinking that what you describe below was true - good to get confirmation.  I'm running a '90's designed 6-cylinder turbocharged engine (6G72, Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4) with over 1 bar of boost, so I'm guessing that I'll reach the ping limit at boost well before the torque limit.
> 
> - Brian
> 
> Further a few words to timing advance. Engines of newer conception (4V, =
> central spark plug, CR~11) will have at loads lower than 50-70% their =
> best advance before "pinging". At full load, knock limit is always the =
> best.
> 
>                 --- so long ---, klaus.
> 
> There also remains a problem with late model 4valve engines in that some of
> them hardly detonate at all! I have seen Mazda MX5 (Miata) engines on the
> dyno which don't ping, or at least give no indication of pre ignition
> audibly with well over 40 deg advance, WOT and max. torque. The only
> indication was a drastic reduction in power.
> 
> I have also seen one F3 engine builder destroy dozens of Mitsubishi engines
> (4G63 I think) before they got the timing right. Part of the reason was that
> the dyno guys had trouble figuring out where the ping limit was. Then when
> they installed the engine and it was subjected to ram effect through the air
> box, Kabang! Admittedly, these engines run air restrictors and CR's in the
> region of 13:1, so getting the ignition map right is an art form in itself.
> 
> The really clever engine builders (Neil Brown, Speiss Tuning) use the method
> prescribed by Klaus. But the cost of the test equipment is horrific.
> 
> Just a word of caution for anyone trying this theory with modern 4valve N/A
> engines, that's all.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Wed Dec 18 18:52:47 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:52:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

> > On a side note, is there anyone in the states who
> > uses brake dynos capable of 300ish WHP?
>
> You mean, on the list?  In general?  Are you looking
> for one to use?

I mean does anyone know a shop with one that can do a 300WHP car?  Because
at some point in the summer I might have my car engine in and might want to
get it tuned.  It might be nice to do something different and show people
much better results using the same bolt on parts and etc...


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From brian.j.geddes at intel.com  Wed Dec 18 18:56:16 2002
From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:56:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 


So there are basically two timing limints we're talking about.  First is =
the point where torque stops rising or rises very slowly - like a point =
of diminishing returns for timing.  The second limit is the point where =
the engine starts to knock on the fuel/IAT/etc combination that you're =
running. =20

The problem is that these two limits - knock and torque - do not =
necessarily come in the same order on all engines.  On some NA engines, =
the knock limit may be well beyond the torque limit.  On turbocharged =
engines, where the A/F mixture is pressuirized, hotter, and more =
knock-prone, the knock limit is most likely lower than the torque limit. =
 At least that's what I think I heard...anybody else care to confirm?

- Brian

> Help me here. How can you reach the ping limit before the=20
> torque limit. If it
> pings you are at the torque limit for the fuel you are=20
> running. Are you saying
> that if you had better fuel it would not ping and therefore=20
> make more torque.
> Seems nonsensical. I have tuned the Mazda Miata engine for=20
> SCCA GT racing.
> Granted we had good fuel but as a restricted engine best=20
> power on a water brake
> dyno was at around 32 degrees. You could put more in it but=20
> no power came out.
> Why bother carrying a load of timing if it does not make the=20
> torque meter go up.
> It might have a couple of more degrees in first and second=20
> gear only but that
> would probably be the end of the mapping changes from the=20
> dyno. From the years
> of dyno time I have logged you could always slowly add timing=20
> to the point the
> power did not go up if you added a degree or two more it=20
> stayed the same and any
> more it goes down. The place in my mind to stop is the point=20
> where it adds no
> more power not the place where it makes no difference. You=20
> can always add a
> little in the lower gears to make the car snappier and then=20
> still be fine for a
> top gear pull on a long straight.
> Dave
>=20
> "Geddes, Brian J" wrote:
> >=20
> > I was already thinking that what you describe below was=20
> true - good to get confirmation.  I'm running a '90's=20
> designed 6-cylinder turbocharged engine (6G72, Mitsubishi=20
> 3000GT VR-4) with over 1 bar of boost, so I'm guessing that=20
> I'll reach the ping limit at boost well before the torque limit.
> >=20
> > - Brian
> >=20
> > Further a few words to timing advance. Engines of newer=20
> conception (4V, =3D
> > central spark plug, CR~11) will have at loads lower than=20
> 50-70% their =3D
> > best advance before "pinging". At full load, knock limit is=20
> always the =3D
> > best.
> >=20
> >                 --- so long ---, klaus.
> >=20
> > There also remains a problem with late model 4valve engines=20
> in that some of
> > them hardly detonate at all! I have seen Mazda MX5 (Miata)=20
> engines on the
> > dyno which don't ping, or at least give no indication of=20
> pre ignition
> > audibly with well over 40 deg advance, WOT and max. torque. The only
> > indication was a drastic reduction in power.
> >=20
> > I have also seen one F3 engine builder destroy dozens of=20
> Mitsubishi engines
> > (4G63 I think) before they got the timing right. Part of=20
> the reason was that
> > the dyno guys had trouble figuring out where the ping limit=20
> was. Then when
> > they installed the engine and it was subjected to ram=20
> effect through the air
> > box, Kabang! Admittedly, these engines run air restrictors=20
> and CR's in the
> > region of 13:1, so getting the ignition map right is an art=20
> form in itself.
> >=20
> > The really clever engine builders (Neil Brown, Speiss=20
> Tuning) use the method
> > prescribed by Klaus. But the cost of the test equipment is horrific.
> >=20
> > Just a word of caution for anyone trying this theory with=20
> modern 4valve N/A
> > engines, that's all.
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>=20

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From hugh at sol.co.uk  Wed Dec 18 19:02:36 2002
From: hugh at sol.co.uk (Hugh Keir)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:02:36 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator
Message-ID: 

Here is a great set of worked calculations that take you through it step by
step.

http://members.home.net/rck/phor/06-Speed.html titled The Physics of Racing,
Part 6: Speed and Horsepower

I have been using them to produce a spreadsheet to calculate BHP, torque etc
using a datalogged RPM and vehicle speed signal.

The density of air changes with humidity / pressure which I also added to
the calculations.

I also have a column for AFR from my DIY wideband to look for the best
acceleration against which AFR

My spreadsheet is 95% finished, I still have some problems with the numbers
in the dyno sheet.

What have you used to obtain your datalog?

Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 10:44 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator


> Does anyone know of an equation, or maybe a online calculator, that can
tell me
> how much HP is required to maintain a given speed, given the drag
coefficient of
> the vehicle?
>
> I can calculate the g forces at any speed based upon my RPM rate of
change, and
> therefore, acceleration (assuming no tire spin), which I have in 30
samples/sec
> in my log files.
>
> I can calculate horsepower from g-force and road speed (also constantly
logged).
> I just need to add the horsepower lost through wind resistance. I want to
keep
> drivetrain losses, I want a RWHP figure, not FWHP.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 19:17:50 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:17:50 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

--- "Geddes, Brian J" 
wrote:

> So there are basically two timing limints we're
> talking about.  First is the point where torque
> stops rising or rises very slowly - like a point of
> diminishing returns for timing.  The second limit is
> the point where the engine starts to knock on the
> fuel/IAT/etc combination that you're running.  

> The problem is that these two limits - knock and
> torque - do not necessarily come in the same order
> on all engines.  On some NA engines, the knock limit
> may be well beyond the torque limit.  On
> turbocharged engines, where the A/F mixture is
> pressuirized, hotter, and more knock-prone, the
> knock limit is most likely lower than the torque
> limit.  At least that's what I think I
> heard...anybody else care to confirm?

Well, if you are talking in that sense, simply up the
octane to cover the extra compression.  However, you
can run into a point of diminishing returns as far as
power output at higher rpms with the slower burn...

As far as what I *think* was initially being said,
that there is a power curve that is static and based
on timing advance, and some engines will ping before
they "get there", that's not so, as such.  What gives
you the ability to advance timing and get a "response
curve" to changing ignition timing at a set engine
load and speed is generally the shape of the
combustion chamber, and different shapes will give
different "response curves".  Some will be very brupt
in "going to ping".  Thus has been my experience.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From nwester at eidnet.org  Wed Dec 18 19:19:22 2002
From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:19:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Having never actually used a wideband (we're 4 gas equipped shop and
eddybrake dyno), I couldn't tell you the difference. Being able to watch CO
and HC does have it's advantages--and I really love tuning on my eddybrake
machine. The nice thing about the Sun450 is not only the AFR curve, but you
can watch everything graphically as you're on the dyno. I don't like the
time lag, but I also don't tune in real time--that'd put the drivetrain and
engine under unnecessary loads at WOT. There's a lot of values you have to
keep an eye on when tuning...and I honestly don't see how you can do a good
tune on an inertia machine--but that's just me. If I had an inertia
dyno--I'd have to learn to tune with it, right ?

Lyndon ; )

----- Original Message -----
From: "A6intruder" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:35 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs


>
> I understand that the 4-gas gives more info than a WB, but for those that
> don't have access to a 4-gas a WB can still be very useful.
>
> Below you discuss that the WB changes as you change timing at a given data
> point.  Of course it does, the WB is only reporting what it observes.  If
> you change timing from "way-off-rich" to "optimum" you will see the WB
> report a leaning A/F trend as it should, you just improved combustion by
> changing the timing, not the actual A/F.  Now you will have to decide if
> your resulting do have to change A/F again to achieve your A/F goal.
>
> My only point of entering the discussion is for those without a 4-gas not
to
> discount the usefulness of a WB.  You DO have to understand what it is
> actually telling you and tune accordingly.
>
> Thanks for a great discussion thread, this one has been very interesting!
>
> Daniel R. Nicoson
> Equipment Exchange Company
> Phone:  (814) 774-0888
> Fax:      (814) 774-0880
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf
> Of Adam Wade
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:54 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
>
> --- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
>
> > Over the last 20 years I have not found this to be
> > true at all.
>
> .
>
> > The NTK wide band will read richer with the same
> > amount of fuel and if timing is advanced to optimal
> > it indicates leaner to the point I am tempted to add
> > more fuel.
>
> Which is why I don't use an O2 sensor of any sort for
> tuning on a dyno.  While it is a fine toold for what
> it is, it cannot give nearly the depth of data that a
> four-gas analyzer can.  It won't indicate rich or lean
> if the timing is not optimal.  In fact, with training
> in what to look for, it is possible to see when a
> single cylinder is rich or lean from the rest
> (although you cannot tell which one unless you have
> probe ports in each runner of the exhaust manifold.
>
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
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>
>
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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Wed Dec 18 19:29:03 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:29:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

=====
Dnojet Research of Belgrade, Montana invented the "inertia" dynamometer in
1989 to test motorcycles. In 1994, it introduced the first inertia dyno for
cars and light trucks, the model 248C. An inertia dyno differs from a brake
dyno in several ways: 1) it has no active power absorption device 2) it's
more accurate, 3) it's less expensive, 4) it's easier on the vehicles being
tested and 5) it's easier to use. Some of the technology that made an
inertia dyno feasible was the personal computer's ability to make rapid
computations
=====

Adam you should really write to this guy....

http://www.idavette.net/hib/dynojet/


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Wed Dec 18 19:33:10 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:33:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

When you use the 4 gas machine do you get different readings when the timing is
incorrect? or does combustion seem normal but the power is down? Can you
illustrate the set of conditions and what you might see and then if you moved
the timing what might happen to the readings?? I am thinking that the WBO2
reports what it sees but what does the 4 gas see in the same situation that
would make you think that it is timing related rather than fueling related. The
WB is seeing inefficient combustion hence the A/F ratio being skewed what
parameter in 4 gas would say the fueling is correct but the timing is off?

Dave

Adam Wade wrote:
> 
> --- A6intruder  wrote:
> 
> > I understand that the 4-gas gives more info than a
> > WB, but for those that don't have access to a 4-gas
> > a WB can still be very useful.
> 
> It can also be misleading if you are not careful.  I
> would say it is substantially better than nothing for
> roughing in a map, and is useful to varying degrees in
> a number of different tuning situations.  However, for
> adjusting fueling, your BEST tool will always be
> residual CO, over residual O2.
> 
> > Below you discuss that the WB changes as you change
> > timing at a given data point.  Of course it does,
> > the WB is only reporting what it observes.
> 
> Fair enough, as long as you can somehow figure out
> what optimal fueling is based on knowledge of the
> behavior and your timing map.  For my dollar, it's far
> easier to get a single quick reading that can tell me
> a very great deal without having to guess or
> calculate.  Since I doubt any of us own or build our
> own dynos, we all rent time on them.  For that reason,
> I would recommend renting time on one that gives you
> the best "bang for your buck", if you wish to run on
> one.
> 
> > Now you will have to decide if your resulting do
> > have to change A/F again to achieve your A/F goal.
> 
> Exactly.  My point was that with a four-gas, you can
> tune for best fueling, even if the vehicle could make
> better power via timing changes.  It makes it a LOT
> quicker for many people when on the dyno.
> 
> > My only point of entering the discussion is for
> > those without a 4-gas not to discount the usefulness
> > of a WB.
> 
> Again, understood.  More of a "horses for courses"
> argument on my part, and I think I've already
> mentioned the utility of the device more than once.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
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From scampbell at mrccos.com  Wed Dec 18 19:39:17 2002
From: scampbell at mrccos.com (Scott Campbell.)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:39:17 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator - FYI
Message-ID: 

Hugh,

You may enjoy reinventing the wheel, and that is OK, but for us lazy types there is a nice little program called StreetDyno:
http://www.tweecer.com/StreetDyno/

and another one called RoadDyno:
http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/roaddyno/dyno.htm

They do lack your AFR correlation though.

Scott.

Hugh Keir wrote:

> Here is a great set of worked calculations that take you through it step by
> step.
>
> http://members.home.net/rck/phor/06-Speed.html titled The Physics of Racing,
> Part 6: Speed and Horsepower
>
> I have been using them to produce a spreadsheet to calculate BHP, torque etc
> using a datalogged RPM and vehicle speed signal.
>
> The density of air changes with humidity / pressure which I also added to
> the calculations.
>
> I also have a column for AFR from my DIY wideband to look for the best
> acceleration against which AFR
>
> My spreadsheet is 95% finished, I still have some problems with the numbers
> in the dyno sheet.
>
> What have you used to obtain your datalog?
>
> Hugh


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Wed Dec 18 19:50:03 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:50:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

All I can say is if you want a good tune and want to hit every point on a map go
to a shop that has a servo controlled brake either eddy current or water but ya
gotta pull the engine out of the car if you want the real deal. The simplest
tuning strategy is to set the servo to the rpm of interest and slowly apply load
and map away move to the next and do the same until you are done. Inertia dynos
seem to be for the weekend warrior that is not willing to go the extra mile for
the best possible tune.
Dave

Erik Jacobs wrote:
> 
> =====
> Dnojet Research of Belgrade, Montana invented the "inertia" dynamometer in
> 1989 to test motorcycles. In 1994, it introduced the first inertia dyno for
> cars and light trucks, the model 248C. An inertia dyno differs from a brake
> dyno in several ways: 1) it has no active power absorption device 2) it's
> more accurate, 3) it's less expensive, 4) it's easier on the vehicles being
> tested and 5) it's easier to use. Some of the technology that made an
> inertia dyno feasible was the personal computer's ability to make rapid
> computations
> =====
> 
> Adam you should really write to this guy....
> 
> http://www.idavette.net/hib/dynojet/
> 
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 20:11:45 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:11:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

> Adam you should really write to this guy....

Nah.  He made up his mind without trying both types,
but stated "facts" about the comparison.  Ones that
are very wrong in my experience, and I'm not the only
one (even on this list!).  I *do* sometimes get tired
of wasting my breath, you know...  :D  ;)

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From shannen at grolen.com  Wed Dec 18 20:23:25 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:23:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Message-ID: 

Adam Wade wrote:
> 
> --- Shannen Durphey  wrote:
> 
> > By the time the mixture gets rich beyond the
> > sensor's range, the HC's stink.
> 
> I've already answered this one.  It was an example to
> illustrate a point in any case.  
So I have said.  

> I'm sorry that seems
> to have been lost on you.
I'm beginning to feel the same way.  You have spent considerable effort
trying to prove one way and then another that I'm not correct.  Now it
seems as though you're taking potshots. 

> 
> > While you're busy telling the local car club how
> > much better a purpose designed car is for a specific
> > job,
> 
> I have no clue what you are claiming.  I've never said
> or believed any such thing.

It's an analogy.  lol.  Either you can't think that way, or you need to
relax.  No matter, after this I'll try not to use them in replies to your
posts.

This is the comparison I was making:  Many people do not have access to the
type of dyno you promote.  For those people it's good to know how to get
the most out of the time they may spend on an inertial dyno.   You can talk
about the advantages of the brake dyno and four gas analyzer all day, but
it doesn't help anyone if they can't get time on that equipment. 
Similarly, you can talk to the guys hanging out at the drive-in on Saturday
night about the advantages of F1 engines, but it doesn't help them a bit if
they can't get one for themselves.

Shannen

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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Wed Dec 18 20:25:53 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (A6intruder)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:25:53 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

I think it's great that you guys are comparing the merits of the two types
of dynos but for most of us we have to do most of our tuning on the street
and then use the dyno for verification and bragging rights.

I did use a local inertial dyno when I first hopped up my 1994 Mustang but
all we could adjust then was fuel pressure and base timing.  Now that I've
discovered the EEC tuner and have a permanently installed WB, including data
log, I am able to tune any time I want.  This is certainly not a same day
process for anything other than the WOT.  The "street" portion of the tune
takes time because I have to let the EEC have miles to add it's own
corrections, then I make more changes to close the gap.

My use is certainly different than a circle track racer.  An inertial dyno
very closely simulates my WOT use.  On the street they frown on sustained
high RPM cruise...too bad.

I think my local guy is fairly reasonable at $60-80/hr but I am not going
back until I have the MAF curve nailed.  Then I will show up with several
files ready changing the WOT A/F on each file.  My use of the dyno would be
to see the difference A/F makes at each part of the RPM curve, then another
series of files to see the effect of timing changes.

I have considered mapping the A/F effects by just measuring the change of
acceleration (from data log) on the same piece of road at the same weight
within minutes of each run.  This could show relative change to help select
the optimum A/F.  But in the end I will want that nice dyno produced HP
curve printed out for bragging rights.

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Shannen Durphey
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:00 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake

It's harder to get consistent back to back tests for comparison by just
pushing the throttle "part way."  The mechanical stop would be one answer.
Logging MAP vs RPM while doing this can help to fill in VE table entries.
But it's tough to work on low speed driveability and around town type
operation using a strictly inertial dyno.

With VE tables set up in 2 or 3 axes, you want to find a method to work
through the table in an ordered fashion.  A good method is to vary rpm at a
fixed MAP and/ or TPS, or to vary MAP and/ or TPS at a fixed rpm.  The
problem is the unbraked inertial dyno can always accelerate.  Once the
engine rpm stabilizes, fixed throttle gives much less load than normal
(very little, actually).  You cannot maintain a specific rpm and put
significant load on the engine to represent steady state cruise.  You need
to work against the fixed mass  provided by the drum, and you need to
accelerate that mass to create a load.

The question for driveability is "what are you tuning for?"  A minimum
requirement would be acceptable throttle response, maximum fuel economy,
and the perception that the engine's running correctly.  If the vehicle is
subject to emissions regs, then emissions will be first and foremost in the
list of tuning goals, and the 4 gas analyzer and load type dyno will
probably be used for testing.  For economy, one can watch power output and
indicated AFR at a fixed tps to get closer to maximum efficiency.  Since
the drums are accelerating, response or throttle crispness can be roughly
estimated by watching the time it takes to go from one rpm to another at
that fixed throttle angle.  This type of tuning would take a significant
time and when all is said and done, the calibration would probably need
more tuning on the street.  Still, if I were paying for dyno time, and had
some time left over, and felt that I had most of my WOT and high MAP tuning
done, I might try a few runs with a throttle stop installed to at least
rough in the bottom of the tables.

I feel it's easier to judge the result of the driveability tune by watching
for reduction in TPS or by watching fuel consumption at a given power
output and rpm, or by watching the power required to maintain a specific
load at a fixed throttle angle and rpm.  In other words, it's easier to do
it with a braking dyno than an inertial dyno.

Shannen

Erik Jacobs wrote:
>
> A question -- couldn't one test at less than WOT on an inertial dyno
> (Dynojet) to get different load conditions?  Would this be possible?
> Beneficial?  You could "guesstimate" constant throttle position by looking
> at the output of something like a TPS sensor and trying to hold that as
> constant as possible... you could also probably jury rig something on the
> throttle with some kind of electromechanical device to get a constant
> throttle position (servo or something).... am I talking nonsense?
>
> _______________________________________________
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 20:31:42 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:31:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:

> When you use the 4 gas machine do you get different
> readings when the timing is incorrect?

Well, depends on what you mean by "incorrect", but
yes, you can see definite and predictable changes in
the gases based on where the ignition timing is set.

> Can you illustrate the set of conditions and what
> you might see and then if you moved the timing what
> might happen to the readings?

Well, keep in mind that every engine is going to have
slightly different readings, because of intake and
exhaust tract resonances and efficiencies, cam timing
(duration and lift included), combustion chamber
shape, swirl, fuel atomization, and on and on...  So
you'll never see the exact same readings on any two
different types of vehicles.  Once you do one or two
of a particular vehicle you can establish a baseline
and tune to it, which will get you within a few
percent.  Before you get a "baseline" and then tweak,
you would have to use basic tuning techniques of
overshooting and then coming back, which would take a
little bit longer (but especially with EFI, where you
can usually tune in real-time while on the dyno under
load, it's not much longer).

After that, if you know basically what a particular
combustion chamber is going to show you, the rest is
down the combustion science right out of the book.  If
your ignition timing is too late, not only will you be
down on power, but you will see increased unburned HC
and O2 in the exhaust, with lower NOx, but similar CO
to "correct" timing.  Too far asvanced will have low
HC and O2 numbers, higher NOx, and again the same CO,
as a rule of thumb.  Obviously there is some
variation, but that's the basics.

> I am thinking that the WBO2 reports what it sees but
> what does the 4 gas see in the same situation that
> would make you think that it is timing related
> rather than fueling related.

See above.  CO is what I've found to be the best guide
for mixture.  Being able to correlate HC against O2 is
also a very important tool, but differences in intake
tract, fuel delivery, and combustion chamber will add
some variation.  It's fairly easy to see timing, since
HC and O2 change together, and CO does not vary by
much.

> The WB is seeing inefficient combustion hence the
A/F
> ratio being skewed what parameter in 4 gas would say
> the fueling is correct but the timing is off?

See above.  I cannot tell you how much easier a
four-gas makes things in terms of being able to
determine what's going on inside the combustion
chamber.  Again some "reverse inference" is always
going to be necessary, since this is an indirect tool
and not a perfect predictor.  But it's a very useful
tool, epsecially when you know what you're looking at.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 18 20:35:21 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:35:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

--- A6intruder  wrote:

> I think it's great that you guys are comparing the
> merits of the two types of dynos but for most of us
> we have to do most of our tuning on the street
> and then use the dyno for verification and bragging
> rights.

One of the things about an eddy current or other
brake-type dyno is that, if you have real-time tuning
software, it doesn't take much longer to do a tune on
the dyno than it does to simply do a run to gather
data.  That's something that people might want to keep
in mind when choosing a dyno.

There's nothing wrong with ANY method used to tune. 
Some will give better data than others, some cost less
than others, some are quicker than others.  Everyone
has to find a combination that works best for them. 
For me, I have found that my time is valuable enough
that I am willing to spend a little money to save a
lot of it.  My experience has led me to my own
conclusions, and thus YMMV, as well as your choices.

> The "street" portion of the tune takes time because
> I have to let the EEC have miles to add it's own
> corrections, then I make more changes to close the
> gap.

Driving the car around, it takes a lot more time to
hit more of the load/speed sites, whereas on a brake
dyno, you can manually "put" the vehicle at any one of
those sites you choose.  If you have the tools to
gather data from load/speed sites from driving, and
are broke, or are using this to learn more about how
real vehicles in the real world use what's in the map,
then that's great, and I applaud you.  It's a useful
learning tool, for certain.  If you want to get the
car very close in a few hours, there's no substitute
for a good dyno.

I'd also note that some load/speed sites are not hit
very often in the real world, and thus getting a
complete map that's good under all conditions may be
more difficult using street tuning.

> On the street they frown on sustained
> high RPM cruise...too bad.

Hehe.  ;)  That's one reason I definitely recommend an
inertial dyno to someone that has no other tools.  For
WOT fueling, it beats going to jail.  :D

> I think my local guy is fairly reasonable at
> $60-80/hr but I am not going back until I have the
> MAF curve nailed.

Indeed.  And honestly, if you can find someone with a
good brake dyno, see if their rates are competitive. 
I believe you will get a lot more data that way, and
may even use it as a real-time tuning tool.

> Then I will show up with several files ready
> changing the WOT A/F on each file.  My use of the
> dyno would be to see the difference A/F makes at
> each part of the RPM curve, then another
> series of files to see the effect of timing changes.

That's a pretty good way of doing WOT on an inertial.

> I have considered mapping the A/F effects by just
> measuring the change of acceleration (from data log)
> on the same piece of road at the same weight
> within minutes of each run.  This could show
> relative change to help select the optimum A/F.

It's a great way to tune acceleration maps, for sure.

> But in the end I will want that nice dyno produced
HP
> curve printed out for bragging rights.

I hear you.  ;)  One thing to consider, too, is that
an inertial dyno (DynoJet in particular) will read
about 18% higher than a corresponding eddy current
dyno.  While the numbers from the eddy current are not
only more repeatable, but more accurate as well, you
get better bragging rights with a DynoJet,
particularly if you can find one that reads higher
than the oens all your buddies use.  ;)

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From rickss96 at excite.com  Wed Dec 18 20:58:34 2002
From: rickss96 at excite.com (Rick)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:58:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hitachi MCU info
Message-ID: 


IIRC some Hondas use a version of Hitachi H8 MCU, probably others too.  For those interested, here is a link to Hitachi online training material for this processor:

http://hitachi.techonline.com 

This takes you to a registration page.  Once registered, go to the Hitachi Interactive home page and click on Catalog.  

They have an introduction, architecture info, material on software development tools, etc.

Download away :-)

Rick
replyto:RickSS96 at excite.com

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 18 21:02:32 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 18:02:32 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #416 - 9 msgs
Message-ID: 

At 08:56 PM 18/12/2002 +1100, you wrote:
>Mike,
>    The data sheet says "Spherical micrometallic particles"
>Both Lead and Copper micro spheres are in suspension in the grease or 
>oil base (depending on the application).

I know someone who used to have a Honda Prelude, his engine blew
as his oil galleries were filled with a greyish sludge and he had
been a rigorous promar user for 9 years with his car from new,
dare I say it, he was not impressed and considered seriously
legal options.
Since then he uses the manufacturer recommended
oils in his new cars and has never had a problem with metallic
congealed sludge occluding his oil galleries.

If there was anything positive in the long term with adding
metallic particles to oil which *didnt* congeal into masses
of junk causing blocking of oil galleries then I think by now
the auto manufacturers would have taken it on board.

I have never seen one auto manufacturer endorse the practice
of adding 'microparticles' of metal into oil, when there is
no chemical basis for assuming they *wont* congeal into lumps.

With the pressures exerted by (for example) the crank against
the bearings - what suggests these extreme pressures *wont*
cause those metallic particles to be pressed together and
squeeze into the small galleries in the bearings and stay there ?

>From a psychological perspective people will always find
anecdotal and circumstantial incidents to add to their endeavours
as if its evidence. The modern internal combustion engine has
a great capacity for being abused by the addition of so called
additives and still manage to function and people misinterpret
its ability to continue to function as proof the additives
are doing their job.

The practice of MLM where people are 'driven' to make business
with and of their closest associates blurs the issue of integrity
and is a disgusting expectation and one of manipulation, when
every friend they encounter becomes another meal ticket. And to use
questionable chemistry and physics as the basis in an industry
that is very well researched has me dissapointed in the level
of intellectual heights the human race has reached.

What is the compelling evidence there is a chemical imperative
the metallic particles will *not* eventually become congealed ?

rgds

Mike



Rgds

mike




>Regards
>Bill
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:25:22
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
From: Mike 
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Lubrication
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>is this the stuff that used to have micro lead clusters added
>to engine oil ?
>
>Or is it like the chlorinated parrafins used by bitron ?
>
>rgds
>
>mike
>
>>  
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 18 21:16:47 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 18:16:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 11:23 AM 18/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>--- "Geddes, Brian J" 
>wrote:
>Well, if you are talking in that sense, simply up the
>octane to cover the extra compression.  However, you
>can run into a point of diminishing returns as far as
>power output at higher rpms with the slower burn...

Huh ?

WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?

Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?

Mike


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 18 21:25:06 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 18:25:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Message-ID: 

At 12:17 PM 18/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:
>
>> Adam you should really write to this guy....
>
>Nah.  He made up his mind without trying both types,
>but stated "facts" about the comparison.  Ones that
>are very wrong in my experience, and I'm not the only
>one (even on this list!).  I *do* sometimes get tired
>of wasting my breath, you know...  :D  ;)

Judging by the volume of your postings, this last comment of
yours seems to be some considerable distance from becoming
asymptotic ;)

*grin*

mike


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From steve.andersen at dol.net  Wed Dec 18 21:39:55 2002
From: steve.andersen at dol.net (Stephen Andersen, P.E.)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 18:39:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Loading dynos
Message-ID: 

> I'd wager a "not very many" guess.  If you know
> someone with a spare $50,000 who wants to have one,
> though, I can put the people together.  ;)  Then
> there's the dyno room on top of that, of course...
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |

You guys must live under rocks if you don't know of any brake type/eddy
current=20
loading dynos around.  I know of at least 4 Mustang dynos within 1-1.5 =
hours
driving
distance from me here in Delaware, 2 of which are AWD dynos. =20

The Mustang dyno does have an "inertial component" in that it has=20
a decent sized roller.  However it can easily be setup to do=20
acceleration testing, or constant speed/load work., or stepwise
loading.

The 2WD Mustang dyno can handle over 500 whp, maybe even more, and=20
costs about 25-30k with "some" options on it.  The AWD dyno is close to=20
60k.

Ask them where to find one near you if you are curious...

Steve



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From ronin at aristotle.net  Wed Dec 18 22:04:09 2002
From: ronin at aristotle.net (Dave Williams)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:04:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Veggie van.
Message-ID: 

Eric Byrd wrote:
> 
> well, anything you burn produces CO2, and contributes to global warming.
> That's why I'm partial to solar-generated hydrogen fuel.

 Find a way to stop exhaling CO2 when you breathe and you can be
Environmentally Correct...

-- 
===ronin at aristotle.net (Dave Williams)==============================
== waiting, anticipating / for someone to save her soul / well, I ==
== ain't no new Messiah / but I'm close enough for rock and roll! ==
============================= http://angelfire.com/ar/dw42/index.htm

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From goat at notevil.net  Wed Dec 18 22:15:16 2002
From: goat at notevil.net (Guncotton)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:15:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Intro, and q's about fuel economy
Message-ID: 

> > > Letting it fill completely then releasing some before compression?
> >
> > Why not ? Any idea about how and where to release the air ?
>
> Re-open the exhaust valve during the compression stroke?
>

That's how Briggs and Stratton controls CR on their little motors (ie.
>11hp)


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From shurvinton at orange.net  Wed Dec 18 22:53:57 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:53:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

I must admit in shame that there are a couple of concepts here that I am
still having difficulty getting my head around, despite having followed it
each time it is discussed. Whilst I understand that a truck engine in a
truck has to work harder than the same engine in a hotrod I still have
confusions about 'load'.

I can't help wondering whether is it because I am thinking about it from a
MAP or TPS% perspective (NA). These are used to infer load, but are merely
measures or inferences of the air entering the engine. So if you are
comparing 2 applications on part throttle, for the same throttle opening,
the light vehicle will need less fuel than the heavy one. Normally you
modulate the throttle to match the load so you don't actually see this,
except perhaps the drivability issues with a non-linear throttle reponse due
to having too little 'load'. Or to put it another way TPS% is a measure of
potential power, not actual or required.

The Dyno of course has difficulty replicating this.

It may click after a few more years tuning the car, or am I still
approaching it from the wrong direction?

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shannen Durphey" 



."  Yet again the tune for
> the long, heavy load isn't optimum for the short, light load.
>
> Gear and load corrections can be a good thing.  > Shannen

>
> Dave Dahlgren wrote:
> >
. The better after
> > market stuff has tables and corrections for what gear you are in. You
can and
> > should change timing fueling and boost according what gear you are in as
it
> > compensates for the relative load on the engine.
> > Dave
> >
> > Shannen Durphey wrote:
> >
> > > Using a braking type dyno to tune a car for WOT can produce misleading
> > > results.  A lightweight car with a high power to weight ratio would
> > > typically never see the same load and duration that can be applied
with a
> > > brake type dyno


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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Wed Dec 18 22:57:53 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:57:53 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

>On turbocharged engines, where the A/F mixture is pressuirized, hotter, and
more knock-prone, the knock
>limit is most likely lower than the torque limit.  At least that's what I
think I heard...anybody else care to
>confirm?

This is true on all the Supra and DSM engines I've seen, with pump gas
(2jz-gtes and 4g63).

Who was it that said they've seen 4g63s blow up when trying to find the
knock limit? How the hell do you do that? The 4g36 bottom ends are by all
accounts just as strong as the Supra's but with a weaker head gasket. I've
seen a DSM have his boost controller line pop off, which spiked the boost to
over 30 psi. At the same time, the extra boost blew the FPR hose off. No
noticable damage. This was all on pump gas.

The same car has had the (internal) WG stick and not open at all a few
times. Only damage done was a blown headgasket (again on pump gas).

Grant

----- Original Message -----
From: "Geddes, Brian J" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:03 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?



So there are basically two timing limints we're talking about.  First is the
point where torque stops rising or rises very slowly - like a point of
diminishing returns for timing.  The second limit is the point where the
engine starts to knock on the fuel/IAT/etc combination that you're running.

The problem is that these two limits - knock and torque - do not necessarily
come in the same order on all engines.  On some NA engines, the knock limit
may be well beyond the torque limit.  On turbocharged engines, where the A/F
mixture is pressuirized, hotter, and more knock-prone, the knock limit is
most likely lower than the torque limit.  At least that's what I think I
heard...anybody else care to confirm?

- Brian

> Help me here. How can you reach the ping limit before the
> torque limit. If it
> pings you are at the torque limit for the fuel you are
> running. Are you saying
> that if you had better fuel it would not ping and therefore
> make more torque.
> Seems nonsensical. I have tuned the Mazda Miata engine for
> SCCA GT racing.
> Granted we had good fuel but as a restricted engine best
> power on a water brake
> dyno was at around 32 degrees. You could put more in it but
> no power came out.
> Why bother carrying a load of timing if it does not make the
> torque meter go up.
> It might have a couple of more degrees in first and second
> gear only but that
> would probably be the end of the mapping changes from the
> dyno. From the years
> of dyno time I have logged you could always slowly add timing
> to the point the
> power did not go up if you added a degree or two more it
> stayed the same and any
> more it goes down. The place in my mind to stop is the point
> where it adds no
> more power not the place where it makes no difference. You
> can always add a
> little in the lower gears to make the car snappier and then
> still be fine for a
> top gear pull on a long straight.
> Dave
>
> "Geddes, Brian J" wrote:
> >
> > I was already thinking that what you describe below was
> true - good to get confirmation.  I'm running a '90's
> designed 6-cylinder turbocharged engine (6G72, Mitsubishi
> 3000GT VR-4) with over 1 bar of boost, so I'm guessing that
> I'll reach the ping limit at boost well before the torque limit.
> >
> > - Brian
> >
> > Further a few words to timing advance. Engines of newer
> conception (4V, =
> > central spark plug, CR~11) will have at loads lower than
> 50-70% their =
> > best advance before "pinging". At full load, knock limit is
> always the =
> > best.
> >
> >                 --- so long ---, klaus.
> >
> > There also remains a problem with late model 4valve engines
> in that some of
> > them hardly detonate at all! I have seen Mazda MX5 (Miata)
> engines on the
> > dyno which don't ping, or at least give no indication of
> pre ignition
> > audibly with well over 40 deg advance, WOT and max. torque. The only
> > indication was a drastic reduction in power.
> >
> > I have also seen one F3 engine builder destroy dozens of
> Mitsubishi engines
> > (4G63 I think) before they got the timing right. Part of
> the reason was that
> > the dyno guys had trouble figuring out where the ping limit
> was. Then when
> > they installed the engine and it was subjected to ram
> effect through the air
> > box, Kabang! Admittedly, these engines run air restrictors
> and CR's in the
> > region of 13:1, so getting the ignition map right is an art
> form in itself.
> >
> > The really clever engine builders (Neil Brown, Speiss
> Tuning) use the method
> > prescribed by Klaus. But the cost of the test equipment is horrific.
> >
> > Just a word of caution for anyone trying this theory with
> modern 4valve N/A
> > engines, that's all.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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From sravet at arm.com  Wed Dec 18 23:32:52 2002
From: sravet at arm.com (steve ravet)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 20:32:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] search engine update
Message-ID: 

a little online help window has been added explaining how to search for
phrases, etc.  And I fixed a problem with the CGI program that was
keeping searches with more than one keyword from matching posts
correctly.

--steve

-- 
Steve Ravet
steve.ravet at arm.com
ARM,Inc.
www.arm.com

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 19 01:24:28 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 22:24:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

> I can't help wondering whether is it because I am
> thinking about it from a MAP or TPS% perspective
> (NA).

That's actually one way I tend to think of it, at
least from the actual EFI tuning side.

> These are used to infer load, but are merely
> measures or inferences of the air entering the
> engine.

Correct.  At a given engine RPM, assuming best-power
fueling, you will make X power with Y mass of air. 
That will be some fraction of the power made by an
"ideal" Otto-cycle engine under the same conditions.

> So if you are comparing 2 applications on part
> throttle, for the same throttle opening, the light
> vehicle will need less fuel than the heavy one.

How much is a thing that varies greatly.  There's the
old F=MA saw for acceleration, but if you are talking
about steady-stae, all you are interested in is
mechanical friction and drag.  Assuming the same drag
on both vehicles (a dangerous assumption, but I'll put
it out there as an axiom for this particular case),
the only difference in required power to maintain a
given road speed on a level road will be in the
mechanical friction in the components of both
vehicles.  At cruise, you're almost exclusively
looking at aerodynamic drag.  Acceleration is another
story, or course, based on mass.

> Normally you modulate the throttle to match the load
> so you don't actually see this, except perhaps the
> drivability issues with a non-linear throttle
> reponse due to having too little 'load'.

Correct.  You cause the vehicle to produce the desired
amount of power by changing the amount of air it can
get.

> Or to put it another way TPS% is a measure of
> potential power, not actual or required.

This is why many systems have load/speed maps.  Load
is typically read in TPS%, with finer resolution at
smaller openings as you would expect for linearity.

> The Dyno of course has difficulty replicating this.

Actually, it has been my experience that brake dynos
can duplicate it quite well when steady-state (load =
power produced).  By only loading the engine for the
equivalent of, say, 8 horsepower, you can duplicate
cruise conditions fairly well, and map
higher-rpm/small throttle opening sites steady-state,
just as if you were cruising down the road at a set
speed with no wind.

> It may click after a few more years tuning the car,
> or am I still approaching it from the wrong
> direction?

;)  I like your approch these days.  :D

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From axel_rietschin at compuserve.com  Thu Dec 19 01:45:34 2002
From: axel_rietschin at compuserve.com (Axel Rietschin)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 22:45:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator - FYI
Message-ID: 

A more elaborated version here http://jcdperformance.free.fr/ (in French)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Campbell." 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator - FYI


>
> Hugh,
>
> You may enjoy reinventing the wheel, and that is OK, but for us lazy types
there is a nice little program called StreetDyno:
> http://www.tweecer.com/StreetDyno/
>
> and another one called RoadDyno:
> http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/roaddyno/dyno.htm
>


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From skulte at skulte.com  Thu Dec 19 03:10:23 2002
From: skulte at skulte.com (Andris Skulte)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 00:10:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 


> The only way to get the information, is to calculate the heat release =
> rate. Therefor you need at least information about the incylinder =
> pressure. You need a incylinder pressure sensor and a trigger device =
> (resolution of 0.5deg works good enough). A good incylinder pressure =
> transducer costs ~$2000,-, bad one ~$1000,-. Low cost sensors are in =
> development since years, but not available today. Equations for =
> calculating the heat release rate can be found in the Heywood book and =
> in many SAE-papers.

At an SAE Congress, I came across Optrand, which makes fiber optic pressure
transducers. For about $600, they'd machine one of your sparkplugs for the
miniature pressure diaphragm/fiber optic fiber, and have a calibration box
for a 1-5V output. They're good to 30 kHz, and 1500 or 3000 psi.
(http://www.optrand.com/PSIplug.htm). It seems ideal for what we'd be doing.
Has anyone here used them?

Andris/Z28tt


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From roots66 at flexoink.com  Thu Dec 19 04:05:41 2002
From: roots66 at flexoink.com (Noel Strauss)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 01:05:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2A6EA.DAD44E20
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=20
Does anyone have experience with setting up the EFI

on a 16 injector BDS bugcatcher? Need help with base fuel map and cold =
start.=20

------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2A6EA.DAD44E20
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









 

Does anyone have experience with setting up the =
EFI
on=20
a 16 injector BDS bugcatcher? Need help with base fuel =
map and=20
cold start. 


------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2A6EA.DAD44E20--


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From roots66 at flexoink.com  Thu Dec 19 04:55:44 2002
From: roots66 at flexoink.com (Noel Strauss)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 01:55:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blower
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C2A6F1.937BF9E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Does anyone have experience with setting up the EFI

on a 16 injector BDS bugcatcher? Need help with base fuel map and cold =
start
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C2A6F1.937BF9E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Does anyone have experience with setting up the =
EFI
on=20
a 16 injector BDS bugcatcher? Need help with base fuel =
map and=20
cold start


------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C2A6F1.937BF9E0--


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Thu Dec 19 04:59:52 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 01:59:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 10:15 PM 18/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>At an SAE Congress, I came across Optrand, which makes fiber optic pressure
>transducers. For about $600, they'd machine one of your sparkplugs for the
>miniature pressure diaphragm/fiber optic fiber, and have a calibration box
>for a 1-5V output. They're good to 30 kHz, and 1500 or 3000 psi.
>(http://www.optrand.com/PSIplug.htm). It seems ideal for what we'd be doing.
>Has anyone here used them?

Hey, these are a really neat idea and remind me of those plugs
with quartz windows so you could see the flame colour..

Looking at the optrands units, I wonder if it would be possible
to integrate the pressure sensor and a smaller quartz window
and watch the flame colour whilst simultaneiously observing
pressure variation, that is, two fibres, one for pressure
the other for flame colour.

ie. It would be neat to see a 2d graph of time versus
pressure variation and flame colour and the differentials
over changing load, mixture, inlet temperature, octane and
make up a 3D or higher D map of the items of interest etc etc...

Now if we could just integrate a spark plug with a high pressure
fuel injector  another story.

rgds

mike


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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Thu Dec 19 09:45:26 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 06:45:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] test
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3123182887_2581523
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit


-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


--B_3123182887_2581523
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable



test




-- 

Matt Porritt

RC Race Cars and Supplies

ICQ #22776813






--B_3123182887_2581523--


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Thu Dec 19 09:49:48 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 06:49:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

I am in the USA in Connecticut..
Unfortunately the map is the property of the guy I tuned the engine for.. His
money spent not mine to give away. I can forward your e-mail to him though and
let him reply directly. Sorry if it was for my car you could have it. The engine
has TWM throttle bodies and the SCCA required restrictors so I am not sure how
much there would be to learn anyway. I will comment that this was one of the
most efficient engines I have worked on in along while. The BSFC was routinely
in 0.38 to 0.36 range. I thought the dyno was broken to be honest but we checked
the fuel flow meters and they are correct and the correction factors were all
right as well. The engine seems to like A/F ratios around 13.8 at WOT and does
not need a lot of timing as well around 32 to 34 at WOT with race fuel , C-12
and 13.5/1 CR. You can add more timing but it makes no more power and it did not
improve response either. The same with the fuel you can fatten it up a bit and
the power goes down.
Dave

Rod Hiorns wrote:
> 
> Hi Dave,
> I hope you won't mind me asking. A buddy & I are just starting tuning on
> our miatas and wonder if you have suitable maps I can compare to see how
> we're doing. My buddy has a 1.6 at up to 12 psi using a MoTeC, and I
> have a lowly stock 1.8, with a MiataLink, shortly to be turbo'd to 10 psi.
> I know all engines are unique, but any info would be really helpful.
> We're in London, UK. Are you anywhere near?
> Cheers,
> Rod


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Thu Dec 19 10:13:33 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:13:33 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

You need to think in terms of cylinder pressure. Big truck long hill same rpm
and map big cylinder pressure. same engine in a 2000 lb car going downhill at
WOT very little pressure same rpm and MAP, at least until you chicken out and
lift. But I think it Makes the point. the only time the two engines see the same
load is at terminal velocity for both at the same rpm. If you tune for terminal
velocity with no fuel or timing modifiers for the lower gears and less load you
are giving something up power wise. To a certain degree the OEMs seem to play
with gearing to make some of these scenarios equal. Small light car take gear
out,big truck put gear in.. 
Dave

William Shurvinton wrote:
> 
> I must admit in shame that there are a couple of concepts here that I am
> still having difficulty getting my head around, despite having followed it
> each time it is discussed. Whilst I understand that a truck engine in a
> truck has to work harder than the same engine in a hotrod I still have
> confusions about 'load'.
> 
> I can't help wondering whether is it because I am thinking about it from a
> MAP or TPS% perspective (NA). These are used to infer load, but are merely
> measures or inferences of the air entering the engine. So if you are
> comparing 2 applications on part throttle, for the same throttle opening,
> the light vehicle will need less fuel than the heavy one. Normally you
> modulate the throttle to match the load so you don't actually see this,
> except perhaps the drivability issues with a non-linear throttle reponse due
> to having too little 'load'. Or to put it another way TPS% is a measure of
> potential power, not actual or required.
> 
> The Dyno of course has difficulty replicating this.
> 
> It may click after a few more years tuning the car, or am I still
> approaching it from the wrong direction?
> 
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shannen Durphey" 
> 
> 
> 
> ."  Yet again the tune for
> > the long, heavy load isn't optimum for the short, light load.
> >
> > Gear and load corrections can be a good thing.  > Shannen
> 
> >
> > Dave Dahlgren wrote:
> > >
> . The better after
> > > market stuff has tables and corrections for what gear you are in. You
> can and
> > > should change timing fueling and boost according what gear you are in as
> it
> > > compensates for the relative load on the engine.
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > Shannen Durphey wrote:
> > >
> > > > Using a braking type dyno to tune a car for WOT can produce misleading
> > > > results.  A lightweight car with a high power to weight ratio would
> > > > typically never see the same load and duration that can be applied
> with a
> > > > brake type dyno
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Thu Dec 19 10:31:59 2002
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:31:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #427 - 13 msgs
Message-ID: 

Mike,
    Thank you, your comments are of interest and potential concern.
I would be interested to communicate with your acquaintance on this 
matter to hear first hand of his experience from which I can then pose 
some questions back to Pro-Ma directly. I would be happy for you to pass 
my email address to him for this purpose.

    Some points which may be relevant. Pro-Ma recommends:
1. Not to add the Oil additive to new or re-conditioned engines which 
have done less than 5000km.
2. Not to add it to engines which use very light oils
3. Not to add it in excess of the recommended dosage.
4. Mix thoroughly with the last litre of oil before adding.
5. Immediately after adding, run the engine for at least 15-30 mins 
before shutdown.( I normally do an oil change immediately before I have 
to drive somewhere which is going to take about that time).

This was first added to my cars at 300,000km and 200,000km respectively.

Your friend's experience obviously makes no comment about the Grease 
product.

The particles by the way are in the range 1-10 microns.

I agree with you thoroughly regarding using friends and acquaintenances 
as a meal ticket which is precisely why I am not in this as a business.
Friendships are far too valuable to abuse in that way.
The subject only comes up when someone asks a pointed question, ie the 
wheel rolling resistance question on list, and the follow on questions 
from that, or if/when someone sees me using it.

    So again I appreciate your input and would like to follow up on it, 
if that is at all possible.

Best Regards and a safe Christmas to all - remember the reason for the 
season!
Bill


>Message: 1
>Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 05:11:27
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
From: Mike 
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #416 - 9 msgs
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>At 08:56 PM 18/12/2002 +1100, you wrote:
>  
>
>>Mike,
>>   The data sheet says "Spherical micrometallic particles"
>>Both Lead and Copper micro spheres are in suspension in the grease or 
>>oil base (depending on the application).
>>    
>>
>
>I know someone who used to have a Honda Prelude, his engine blew
>as his oil galleries were filled with a greyish sludge and he had
>been a rigorous promar user for 9 years with his car from new,
>dare I say it, he was not impressed and considered seriously
>legal options.
>Since then he uses the manufacturer recommended
>oils in his new cars and has never had a problem with metallic
>congealed sludge occluding his oil galleries.
>
>If there was anything positive in the long term with adding
>metallic particles to oil which *didnt* congeal into masses
>of junk causing blocking of oil galleries then I think by now
>the auto manufacturers would have taken it on board.
>
>I have never seen one auto manufacturer endorse the practice
>of adding 'microparticles' of metal into oil, when there is
>no chemical basis for assuming they *wont* congeal into lumps.
>
>With the pressures exerted by (for example) the crank against
>the bearings - what suggests these extreme pressures *wont*
>cause those metallic particles to be pressed together and
>squeeze into the small galleries in the bearings and stay there ?
>
>>From a psychological perspective people will always find
>anecdotal and circumstantial incidents to add to their endeavours
>as if its evidence. The modern internal combustion engine has
>a great capacity for being abused by the addition of so called
>additives and still manage to function and people misinterpret
>its ability to continue to function as proof the additives
>are doing their job.
>
>The practice of MLM where people are 'driven' to make business
>with and of their closest associates blurs the issue of integrity
>and is a disgusting expectation and one of manipulation, when
>every friend they encounter becomes another meal ticket. And to use
>questionable chemistry and physics as the basis in an industry
>that is very well researched has me dissapointed in the level
>of intellectual heights the human race has reached.
>
>What is the compelling evidence there is a chemical imperative
>the metallic particles will *not* eventually become congealed ?
>
>rgds
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>Rgds
>
>mike
>  
>



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From sthl at gmx.de  Thu Dec 19 10:35:38 2002
From: sthl at gmx.de (Stephan Helbig)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:35:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hexfile Map Structures
Message-ID: 

Hello,

Maybe someone can give me a little hint on that:
I'm working on several Bosch ECU hexfiles and already found out several
maps which are said to have a DAMOS structure: number of x-markers,
number of y-markers; x-values, y-values; map values (z-values). With
this I can draw a 3-dimensional graph.
Anyway this only works when I can clearly differentiate between
programmed and non-programmed (FFFFF) sections. Many Bosch files however
seem to have the maps within other programmed sections so one cannot
start from the beginning of them. There must be a map-marker value at
the beginning of each map (as far as I'm correct here) and also the
structure seems to be different.
Does anyone know about different structures in hexfiles and how they
work if you want to find and define distinct maps?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Stephan


-- 
My Homepage:
http://www.e-ger-translation.de
http://people.freenet.de/sthl/
--



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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Thu Dec 19 11:28:23 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 08:28:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Having slept on it I think I may not have described things very well =
here.

The dyno can set a constant load of 8HP (once you have taken frictional =
loss differences due to 2 contact patches etc into account). However at =
what throttle setting you should have 8 HP? Given you have the curve of =
BSFC vs Power depending on the engine there are a range of throttle =
openings corresponding to the same 'load'. Tuning the whole map on a =
dyno for best power or best BSFC is obvious, but the blend between those =
would appear, at least to my inexperienced eyes, to be a challenge.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Adam Wade [mailto:espresso_doppio at yahoo.com]
> The Dyno of course has difficulty replicating this.

Actually, it has been my experience that brake dynos
can duplicate it quite well when steady-state (load =3D
power produced).  By only loading the engine for the
equivalent of, say, 8 horsepower, you can duplicate
cruise conditions fairly well, and map
higher-rpm/small throttle opening sites steady-state,
just as if you were cruising down the road at a set
speed with no wind.



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From mike.kelble at prodigy.net  Thu Dec 19 12:40:47 2002
From: mike.kelble at prodigy.net (Mike Kelble)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:40:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
Message-ID: 


------ =_NextPart_000_01C2A731.5FEB7DE0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Have done many with 8 injectors - can't imagine the base fuel map or cold start process would be a lot different. Where are you located??

-----Original Message-----
From:	Noel Strauss [SMTP:roots66 at flexoink.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:12 PM
To:	diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject:	[Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe

 << File: ATT00001.htm >> 
Does anyone have experience with setting up the EFI

on a 16 injector BDS bugcatcher? Need help with base fuel map and cold start. 

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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Thu Dec 19 12:55:59 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:55:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

The gearing bit I have no problem with. My car weights 1250lbs (and =
needs to loose some) so has a very long 1st gear by most standards. =
Because it has very little inertia any lag in throttle response is very =
obvious.

I can't grasp why terminal velocity tune loses power in lower gears =
unless you are deliberately overfuelling to keep things cool though. I =
need to go away and think about that. I will 'get it' eventually :-)

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net]
Sent: 19 December 2002 10:26
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs


You need to think in terms of cylinder pressure. Big truck long hill =
same rpm
and map big cylinder pressure. same engine in a 2000 lb car going =
downhill at
WOT very little pressure same rpm and MAP, at least until you chicken =
out and
lift. But I think it Makes the point. the only time the two engines see =
the same
load is at terminal velocity for both at the same rpm. If you tune for =
terminal
velocity with no fuel or timing modifiers for the lower gears and less =
load you
are giving something up power wise. To a certain degree the OEMs seem to =
play
with gearing to make some of these scenarios equal. Small light car take =
gear
out,big truck put gear in..=20
Dave

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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Thu Dec 19 13:38:26 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (A6intruder)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:38:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane actually
controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Mike
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:26 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?

At 11:23 AM 18/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>--- "Geddes, Brian J" 
>wrote:
>Well, if you are talking in that sense, simply up the
>octane to cover the extra compression.  However, you
>can run into a point of diminishing returns as far as
>power output at higher rpms with the slower burn...

Huh ?

WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?

Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?

Mike


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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Thu Dec 19 13:59:04 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:59:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Can't find the link but this is an urban myth. In many cases a high =
octane gas can be faster burning than a low octane one. Octane is a =
measure of knock resistance, nothing else.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: ext A6intruder [mailto:A6intruder at adelphia.net]
Sent: 19 December 2002 13:35
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?


Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane =
actually
controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.

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From eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com  Thu Dec 19 13:59:53 2002
From: eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com (Eric.Fahlgren)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:59:53 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

A6intruder wrote:

> Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane actually
> controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
> inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.

This is absolutely wrong, the octane number and speed of burn are not
correlated in any way.  Diesel fuel burns very slowly, because it has
a high molecular weight, yet is has very low "octane" (cetane really)
number.

Burn speed does in fact correlate with detonation, but in the opposite
sense given here.  A faster burn reduces the tendency towards detonation,
by reducing the amount of them that the end gasses are exposed to high
pressures and temperatures.  Ever heard of "fast burn" heads?  They
have combustion chambers designed to promote a quicker charge burn,
thus reducing detonation.

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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Thu Dec 19 14:00:41 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:00:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

> Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane
actually
> controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
> inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.

Now this is something I have a hard time with over and over and over again
in my mind, and we really need a chemist to answer it, but I'll provide as
much insight as I can.

Octane is simply a number that represents a measure which is a ratio of the
different lengths of the hydrocarbon chains present in your fuel.

America uses like RON or MON rating, and Japan uses the other one (wichever
one America doesn't use).  In any case, the number comes from some formula
which looks liks (m + n)/2 or something, whatever, it's unimportant.

Anyway, there is a certain type of hydrocarbon chain (i guess octane, the
longer chain) which takes more initial energy to cause a combustion
reaction.  The reason that higher octane fuels resist ping is not that they
take longer to burn, but that they take more input energy to start the
reaction.  I don't believe that octane has anything to do with burn rate.  I
used to think it did, but when I talked to a friend about it, we realized it
might not.

There is a higher initial energy to START combustion, this is true.  But now
why would the combustion take LONGER?  Unless the entire combustion reaction
(breakdown of C8Hx + all the other funky chains) takes LONGER with the
higher octane number, then there's no reason why the burn should be any
slower.  The flame front will propagate as fast as it can, assuming that all
the reactants are present.  Given a perfectly stoich mixture in the
cylinder, with perfect atomization and uniform blend yadda yadda (a perfect
combustion chamber with a perfect mixture, ideal), then the flame front
should propagate at the same speed regardless of whether or not you had c8hx
or c4hx -- once the reaction is STARTED the process is constant, and I don't
think that c8hx takes any LONGER to react given the right amount of o2 than
c4hx.

Now I could be totally wrong.  If the actual reaction takes longer, then
yes, the burn is effectively slower.  The only way to know if the reaction
takes longer would be to talk to a chemist who could tell you based on lots
of fancy chemistry and thermodynamic things like gibbs energy and entropy
and enthalpy and all that jazz.

Shrug... any thermodynamicists or chemists on the list?? =)


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From KYoung at advan-tek.com  Thu Dec 19 14:02:27 2002
From: KYoung at advan-tek.com (Ken Young)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:02:27 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

And why such an engine, which cannot take advantage of the higher
auto-ignition through use of a knock sensor and advanced timing maps, may
actually *LOSE* power with higher octane fuel than it was designed for.
Lower octane fuels burn quicker and can release more power than higher
octane fuels, but the limiting factor is the knock limit (auto-ignition
temp).

Ken Young

>Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane actually
>controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
>inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.

>>Huh ?
>>
>>WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?
>>
>>Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?
>>
>>Mike

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Thu Dec 19 14:14:23 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:14:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 09:06 AM 12/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
>And why such an engine, which cannot take advantage of the higher
>auto-ignition through use of a knock sensor and advanced timing maps, may
>actually *LOSE* power with higher octane fuel than it was designed for.

Complete rubbish, suggest you listen to the experience people on the
list or people that have read the authoritative information on these
issues. The only way your above statement could be true is if the
fuel was contrived to exhibit that issue due to its energy content,

Octane rating, speed of burn and energy content are *not* correlated
by simple formula - fuels are a mix of several petrochemicals and the
fuel companies change them from time to time especially when seaasons
change for volatility issues.

>Lower octane fuels burn quicker and can release more power than higher
>octane fuels, but the limiting factor is the knock limit (auto-ignition
>temp).

Complete rubbish Ken,

Energy content is not auto-correlated with octane number - basic fact !

rgds

mike



>Ken Young
>
>>Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane actually
>>controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
>>inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.
>
>>>Huh ?
>>>
>>>WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?
>>>
>>>Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?
>>>
>>>Mike
>
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Thu Dec 19 14:14:25 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:14:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 08:35 AM 12/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane actually
>controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
>inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.

Daniel,

You are wrong on all points, I take it you either havent been on this
list for long or havent read anything about octane, what it is or how
its measured...

Referring to your three sentences above, denoted as a to c:-

a.	Octane has negligible effect on speed of burn,
	ability to resist spontaneous ignition due to rising temperature
	or pressure has negligible relationship to the speed of burn,
	these are separate issues. It is possible to contrive a
	mixture of fuels to achieve higher octane whilst also reducing
	the burn rate but it is also possible to do the exact opposite.

	Think about the fuels used in F1, highest octane and faster
	burn then our engines, how else could they operate with reasonable
	power outputs at 15,000 rpm.

b.	Higher octane doesnt 'control' ping, it *only* means its less
	likely to ping ie more resitant to ping but has negligible
	relationship to speed of burn.

c.	Any HP/ci engine may not have any imporvement in power out if
	higher octane is used *because* higher octane fuels may not
	necessarily have more energy than lower octane fuels. However,
	if an engine is retuned for higher octane - such as advancing
	the timing or raising the boost then its possible to both
	improve economy and raise power output as required. So bear in
	mind there are four separate issues which 'might' overlap,
	and these are:

	-	Octane rating
	-	Speed of burn
	-	Energy content
	-	Volatility

Its possible with the large variety of fuel components available
(ie. Flammible petrochemicals) that a particular combination can
be reached for a particular aim - but it in no way means there
is an automatic causal relationship between octane and speed of burn,
none, zero - zilch !

I'm sure others on this list can articulate this better than can, I
dont know where you got your information from but its rather one
dimensional and makes woefully invalid generalisations which can
lead people astray - the issue is not at all as simple as you
suggest.

Eg. Here in Australia (amoung others) we have these fuels:-

1.	Unleaded, 92 octane (sometimes reaches 94)
2.	Premium, 96 octane, same energy as 1, same effective speed
	of burn - or actually a little faster as a porsch tuner has
	suggested to me.
3.	BP Ultimate, 98 octane *and* a little higher energy than
	1 or 2 plus a detergent/friction modifier of sorts but BP
	arent saying precisely. Recommended for high performance
	engines where higher speed of burn is more likely to occur.

There are others but I think you get the picture, have a search
for research octane number (RON) and motor octane number (MON).

rgds

mike



>Daniel R. Nicoson
>Equipment Exchange Company
>Phone:  (814) 774-0888
>Fax:      (814) 774-0880
>
>-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
>Of Mike
>Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:26 AM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>
>At 11:23 AM 18/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>--- "Geddes, Brian J" 
>>wrote:
>>Well, if you are talking in that sense, simply up the
>>octane to cover the extra compression.  However, you
>>can run into a point of diminishing returns as far as
>>power output at higher rpms with the slower burn...
>
>Huh ?
>
>WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?
>
>Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?
>
>Mike
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
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>

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Thu Dec 19 14:17:24 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:17:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

it is the 'biggest hill' so to speak. A drag race car seldom reaches terminal
velocity a Bonneville car does as does a car on any long race track. The load
and cylinder pressure is no different there than pulling a big trailer up a
hill. Make sense now? I have a car I have played with at Bonneville. 2 liter
open wheels. Goes 211 N/A out the 5 mile marker in a 1700 lb car with a 305 hp
Cosworth YB. Now if you took that to a drag strip in might go what an 11.0 at
120 maybe? maybe slower.
Dave

bill.shurvinton at nokia.com wrote:

> 
> I can't grasp why terminal velocity tune loses power in lower gears unless you are deliberately overfuelling to keep things cool though. I need to go away and think about that. I will 'get it' eventually :-)
> 
> Bill


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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Thu Dec 19 14:54:44 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:54:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

I thought I survived on not much sleep :-)

OK. Now realise where your reference is. I see that it is the dynamic vs =
static load states that are the issue in my head. My se7en tends to have =
3 modes

1. Accelerating as hard as I can
2. Braking as hard as I can
3. stuck behind other traffic

The aim being to minimise 3. As such for me WOT is always an =
acceleration mode vs bonneville case which is a terminal velocity mode.=20

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net]
Sent: 19 December 2002 14:32
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs


it is the 'biggest hill' so to speak. A drag race car seldom reaches =
terminal
velocity a Bonneville car does as does a car on any long race track. The =
load
and cylinder pressure is no different there than pulling a big trailer =
up a
hill. Make sense now? I have a car I have played with at Bonneville. 2 =
liter
open wheels. Goes 211 N/A out the 5 mile marker in a 1700 lb car with a =
305 hp
Cosworth YB. Now if you took that to a drag strip in might go what an =
11.0 at
120 maybe? maybe slower.
Dave

bill.shurvinton at nokia.com wrote:

>=20
> I can't grasp why terminal velocity tune loses power in lower gears =
unless you are deliberately overfuelling to keep things cool though. I =
need to go away and think about that. I will 'get it' eventually :-)
>=20
> Bill

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From nwester at eidnet.org  Thu Dec 19 15:14:42 2002
From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 12:14:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hitachi MCU info
Message-ID: 

I thought all Hondas were "Oki" ?

Lyndon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 2:05 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hitachi MCU info


>
> IIRC some Hondas use a version of Hitachi H8 MCU, probably others too.
For those interested, here is a link to Hitachi online training material for
this processor:
>
> http://hitachi.techonline.com
>
> This takes you to a registration page.  Once registered, go to the Hitachi
Interactive home page and click on Catalog.
>
> They have an introduction, architecture info, material on software
development tools, etc.
>
> Download away :-)
>
> Rick
> replyto:RickSS96 at excite.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
> _______________________________________________
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From Sean.Richards at diageo.com  Thu Dec 19 16:16:59 2002
From: Sean.Richards at diageo.com (Richards, Sean)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:16:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] 1.8 t transplant
Message-ID: 



-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org]
Sent: 18 December 2002 16:30
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #426 - 10 msgs


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: inertial vs brake (Erik Jacobs)
   2. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Dave Dahlgren)
   3. Re: Wind resistance calculator - FYI (Scott Campbell.)
   4. Re: inertial vs brake (Dave Dahlgren)
   5. Re: inertial vs brake (Adam Wade)
   6. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Adam Wade)
   7. Re: changing wbo2 reading via timing (Shannen Durphey)
   8. RE: inertial vs brake (A6intruder)
   9. RE: inertial vs brake (Adam Wade)
  10. Hitachi MCU info (Rick)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "Erik Jacobs" 
To: 
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:33:33 -0500
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

=====
Dnojet Research of Belgrade, Montana invented the "inertia" dynamometer in
1989 to test motorcycles. In 1994, it introduced the first inertia dyno for
cars and light trucks, the model 248C. An inertia dyno differs from a brake
dyno in several ways: 1) it has no active power absorption device 2) it's
more accurate, 3) it's less expensive, 4) it's easier on the vehicles being
tested and 5) it's easier to use. Some of the technology that made an
inertia dyno feasible was the personal computer's ability to make rapid
computations
=====

Adam you should really write to this guy....

http://www.idavette.net/hib/dynojet/



--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:50:56 -0500
From: Dave Dahlgren 
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

When you use the 4 gas machine do you get different readings when the timing
is
incorrect? or does combustion seem normal but the power is down? Can you
illustrate the set of conditions and what you might see and then if you
moved
the timing what might happen to the readings?? I am thinking that the WBO2
reports what it sees but what does the 4 gas see in the same situation that
would make you think that it is timing related rather than fueling related.
The
WB is seeing inefficient combustion hence the A/F ratio being skewed what
parameter in 4 gas would say the fueling is correct but the timing is off?

Dave

Adam Wade wrote:
> 
> --- A6intruder  wrote:
> 
> > I understand that the 4-gas gives more info than a
> > WB, but for those that don't have access to a 4-gas
> > a WB can still be very useful.
> 
> It can also be misleading if you are not careful.  I
> would say it is substantially better than nothing for
> roughing in a map, and is useful to varying degrees in
> a number of different tuning situations.  However, for
> adjusting fueling, your BEST tool will always be
> residual CO, over residual O2.
> 
> > Below you discuss that the WB changes as you change
> > timing at a given data point.  Of course it does,
> > the WB is only reporting what it observes.
> 
> Fair enough, as long as you can somehow figure out
> what optimal fueling is based on knowledge of the
> behavior and your timing map.  For my dollar, it's far
> easier to get a single quick reading that can tell me
> a very great deal without having to guess or
> calculate.  Since I doubt any of us own or build our
> own dynos, we all rent time on them.  For that reason,
> I would recommend renting time on one that gives you
> the best "bang for your buck", if you wish to run on
> one.
> 
> > Now you will have to decide if your resulting do
> > have to change A/F again to achieve your A/F goal.
> 
> Exactly.  My point was that with a four-gas, you can
> tune for best fueling, even if the vehicle could make
> better power via timing changes.  It makes it a LOT
> quicker for many people when on the dyno.
> 
> > My only point of entering the discussion is for
> > those without a 4-gas not to discount the usefulness
> > of a WB.
> 
> Again, understood.  More of a "horses for courses"
> argument on my part, and I think I've already
> mentioned the utility of the device more than once.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
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--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:48:53 -0700
From: "Scott Campbell." 
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator - FYI
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

Hugh,

You may enjoy reinventing the wheel, and that is OK, but for us lazy types
there is a nice little program called StreetDyno:
http://www.tweecer.com/StreetDyno/

and another one called RoadDyno:
http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/roaddyno/dyno.htm

They do lack your AFR correlation though.

Scott.

Hugh Keir wrote:

> Here is a great set of worked calculations that take you through it step
by
> step.
>
> http://members.home.net/rck/phor/06-Speed.html titled The Physics of
Racing,
> Part 6: Speed and Horsepower
>
> I have been using them to produce a spreadsheet to calculate BHP, torque
etc
> using a datalogged RPM and vehicle speed signal.
>
> The density of air changes with humidity / pressure which I also added to
> the calculations.
>
> I also have a column for AFR from my DIY wideband to look for the best
> acceleration against which AFR
>
> My spreadsheet is 95% finished, I still have some problems with the
numbers
> in the dyno sheet.
>
> What have you used to obtain your datalog?
>
> Hugh



--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:08:19 -0500
From: Dave Dahlgren 
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

All I can say is if you want a good tune and want to hit every point on a
map go
to a shop that has a servo controlled brake either eddy current or water but
ya
gotta pull the engine out of the car if you want the real deal. The simplest
tuning strategy is to set the servo to the rpm of interest and slowly apply
load
and map away move to the next and do the same until you are done. Inertia
dynos
seem to be for the weekend warrior that is not willing to go the extra mile
for
the best possible tune.
Dave

Erik Jacobs wrote:
> 
> =====
> Dnojet Research of Belgrade, Montana invented the "inertia" dynamometer in
> 1989 to test motorcycles. In 1994, it introduced the first inertia dyno
for
> cars and light trucks, the model 248C. An inertia dyno differs from a
brake
> dyno in several ways: 1) it has no active power absorption device 2) it's
> more accurate, 3) it's less expensive, 4) it's easier on the vehicles
being
> tested and 5) it's easier to use. Some of the technology that made an
> inertia dyno feasible was the personal computer's ability to make rapid
> computations
> =====
> 
> Adam you should really write to this guy....
> 
> http://www.idavette.net/hib/dynojet/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



--__--__--

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:17:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Adam Wade 
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

> Adam you should really write to this guy....

Nah.  He made up his mind without trying both types,
but stated "facts" about the comparison.  Ones that
are very wrong in my experience, and I'm not the only
one (even on this list!).  I *do* sometimes get tired
of wasting my breath, you know...  :D  ;)

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:30:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Adam Wade 
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

--- Dave Dahlgren  wrote:

> When you use the 4 gas machine do you get different
> readings when the timing is incorrect?

Well, depends on what you mean by "incorrect", but
yes, you can see definite and predictable changes in
the gases based on where the ignition timing is set.

> Can you illustrate the set of conditions and what
> you might see and then if you moved the timing what
> might happen to the readings?

Well, keep in mind that every engine is going to have
slightly different readings, because of intake and
exhaust tract resonances and efficiencies, cam timing
(duration and lift included), combustion chamber
shape, swirl, fuel atomization, and on and on...  So
you'll never see the exact same readings on any two
different types of vehicles.  Once you do one or two
of a particular vehicle you can establish a baseline
and tune to it, which will get you within a few
percent.  Before you get a "baseline" and then tweak,
you would have to use basic tuning techniques of
overshooting and then coming back, which would take a
little bit longer (but especially with EFI, where you
can usually tune in real-time while on the dyno under
load, it's not much longer).

After that, if you know basically what a particular
combustion chamber is going to show you, the rest is
down the combustion science right out of the book.  If
your ignition timing is too late, not only will you be
down on power, but you will see increased unburned HC
and O2 in the exhaust, with lower NOx, but similar CO
to "correct" timing.  Too far asvanced will have low
HC and O2 numbers, higher NOx, and again the same CO,
as a rule of thumb.  Obviously there is some
variation, but that's the basics.

> I am thinking that the WBO2 reports what it sees but
> what does the 4 gas see in the same situation that
> would make you think that it is timing related
> rather than fueling related.

See above.  CO is what I've found to be the best guide
for mixture.  Being able to correlate HC against O2 is
also a very important tool, but differences in intake
tract, fuel delivery, and combustion chamber will add
some variation.  It's fairly easy to see timing, since
HC and O2 change together, and CO does not vary by
much.

> The WB is seeing inefficient combustion hence the
A/F
> ratio being skewed what parameter in 4 gas would say
> the fueling is correct but the timing is off?

See above.  I cannot tell you how much easier a
four-gas makes things in terms of being able to
determine what's going on inside the combustion
chamber.  Again some "reverse inference" is always
going to be necessary, since this is an indirect tool
and not a perfect predictor.  But it's a very useful
tool, epsecially when you know what you're looking at.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:29:35 -0500
From: Shannen Durphey 
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

Adam Wade wrote:
> 
> --- Shannen Durphey  wrote:
> 
> > By the time the mixture gets rich beyond the
> > sensor's range, the HC's stink.
> 
> I've already answered this one.  It was an example to
> illustrate a point in any case.  
So I have said.  

> I'm sorry that seems
> to have been lost on you.
I'm beginning to feel the same way.  You have spent considerable effort
trying to prove one way and then another that I'm not correct.  Now it
seems as though you're taking potshots. 

> 
> > While you're busy telling the local car club how
> > much better a purpose designed car is for a specific
> > job,
> 
> I have no clue what you are claiming.  I've never said
> or believed any such thing.

It's an analogy.  lol.  Either you can't think that way, or you need to
relax.  No matter, after this I'll try not to use them in replies to your
posts.

This is the comparison I was making:  Many people do not have access to the
type of dyno you promote.  For those people it's good to know how to get
the most out of the time they may spend on an inertial dyno.   You can talk
about the advantages of the brake dyno and four gas analyzer all day, but
it doesn't help anyone if they can't get time on that equipment. 
Similarly, you can talk to the guys hanging out at the drive-in on Saturday
night about the advantages of F1 engines, but it doesn't help them a bit if
they can't get one for themselves.

Shannen


--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "A6intruder" 
To: 
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:39:56 -0500
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

I think it's great that you guys are comparing the merits of the two types
of dynos but for most of us we have to do most of our tuning on the street
and then use the dyno for verification and bragging rights.

I did use a local inertial dyno when I first hopped up my 1994 Mustang but
all we could adjust then was fuel pressure and base timing.  Now that I've
discovered the EEC tuner and have a permanently installed WB, including data
log, I am able to tune any time I want.  This is certainly not a same day
process for anything other than the WOT.  The "street" portion of the tune
takes time because I have to let the EEC have miles to add it's own
corrections, then I make more changes to close the gap.

My use is certainly different than a circle track racer.  An inertial dyno
very closely simulates my WOT use.  On the street they frown on sustained
high RPM cruise...too bad.

I think my local guy is fairly reasonable at $60-80/hr but I am not going
back until I have the MAF curve nailed.  Then I will show up with several
files ready changing the WOT A/F on each file.  My use of the dyno would be
to see the difference A/F makes at each part of the RPM curve, then another
series of files to see the effect of timing changes.

I have considered mapping the A/F effects by just measuring the change of
acceleration (from data log) on the same piece of road at the same weight
within minutes of each run.  This could show relative change to help select
the optimum A/F.  But in the end I will want that nice dyno produced HP
curve printed out for bragging rights.

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Shannen Durphey
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:00 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake

It's harder to get consistent back to back tests for comparison by just
pushing the throttle "part way."  The mechanical stop would be one answer.
Logging MAP vs RPM while doing this can help to fill in VE table entries.
But it's tough to work on low speed driveability and around town type
operation using a strictly inertial dyno.

With VE tables set up in 2 or 3 axes, you want to find a method to work
through the table in an ordered fashion.  A good method is to vary rpm at a
fixed MAP and/ or TPS, or to vary MAP and/ or TPS at a fixed rpm.  The
problem is the unbraked inertial dyno can always accelerate.  Once the
engine rpm stabilizes, fixed throttle gives much less load than normal
(very little, actually).  You cannot maintain a specific rpm and put
significant load on the engine to represent steady state cruise.  You need
to work against the fixed mass  provided by the drum, and you need to
accelerate that mass to create a load.

The question for driveability is "what are you tuning for?"  A minimum
requirement would be acceptable throttle response, maximum fuel economy,
and the perception that the engine's running correctly.  If the vehicle is
subject to emissions regs, then emissions will be first and foremost in the
list of tuning goals, and the 4 gas analyzer and load type dyno will
probably be used for testing.  For economy, one can watch power output and
indicated AFR at a fixed tps to get closer to maximum efficiency.  Since
the drums are accelerating, response or throttle crispness can be roughly
estimated by watching the time it takes to go from one rpm to another at
that fixed throttle angle.  This type of tuning would take a significant
time and when all is said and done, the calibration would probably need
more tuning on the street.  Still, if I were paying for dyno time, and had
some time left over, and felt that I had most of my WOT and high MAP tuning
done, I might try a few runs with a throttle stop installed to at least
rough in the bottom of the tables.

I feel it's easier to judge the result of the driveability tune by watching
for reduction in TPS or by watching fuel consumption at a given power
output and rpm, or by watching the power required to maintain a specific
load at a fixed throttle angle and rpm.  In other words, it's easier to do
it with a braking dyno than an inertial dyno.

Shannen

Erik Jacobs wrote:
>
> A question -- couldn't one test at less than WOT on an inertial dyno
> (Dynojet) to get different load conditions?  Would this be possible?
> Beneficial?  You could "guesstimate" constant throttle position by looking
> at the output of something like a TPS sensor and trying to hold that as
> constant as possible... you could also probably jury rig something on the
> throttle with some kind of electromechanical device to get a constant
> throttle position (servo or something).... am I talking nonsense?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

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--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:42:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Adam Wade 
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

--- A6intruder  wrote:

> I think it's great that you guys are comparing the
> merits of the two types of dynos but for most of us
> we have to do most of our tuning on the street
> and then use the dyno for verification and bragging
> rights.

One of the things about an eddy current or other
brake-type dyno is that, if you have real-time tuning
software, it doesn't take much longer to do a tune on
the dyno than it does to simply do a run to gather
data.  That's something that people might want to keep
in mind when choosing a dyno.

There's nothing wrong with ANY method used to tune. 
Some will give better data than others, some cost less
than others, some are quicker than others.  Everyone
has to find a combination that works best for them. 
For me, I have found that my time is valuable enough
that I am willing to spend a little money to save a
lot of it.  My experience has led me to my own
conclusions, and thus YMMV, as well as your choices.

> The "street" portion of the tune takes time because
> I have to let the EEC have miles to add it's own
> corrections, then I make more changes to close the
> gap.

Driving the car around, it takes a lot more time to
hit more of the load/speed sites, whereas on a brake
dyno, you can manually "put" the vehicle at any one of
those sites you choose.  If you have the tools to
gather data from load/speed sites from driving, and
are broke, or are using this to learn more about how
real vehicles in the real world use what's in the map,
then that's great, and I applaud you.  It's a useful
learning tool, for certain.  If you want to get the
car very close in a few hours, there's no substitute
for a good dyno.

I'd also note that some load/speed sites are not hit
very often in the real world, and thus getting a
complete map that's good under all conditions may be
more difficult using street tuning.

> On the street they frown on sustained
> high RPM cruise...too bad.

Hehe.  ;)  That's one reason I definitely recommend an
inertial dyno to someone that has no other tools.  For
WOT fueling, it beats going to jail.  :D

> I think my local guy is fairly reasonable at
> $60-80/hr but I am not going back until I have the
> MAF curve nailed.

Indeed.  And honestly, if you can find someone with a
good brake dyno, see if their rates are competitive. 
I believe you will get a lot more data that way, and
may even use it as a real-time tuning tool.

> Then I will show up with several files ready
> changing the WOT A/F on each file.  My use of the
> dyno would be to see the difference A/F makes at
> each part of the RPM curve, then another
> series of files to see the effect of timing changes.

That's a pretty good way of doing WOT on an inertial.

> I have considered mapping the A/F effects by just
> measuring the change of acceleration (from data log)
> on the same piece of road at the same weight
> within minutes of each run.  This could show
> relative change to help select the optimum A/F.

It's a great way to tune acceleration maps, for sure.

> But in the end I will want that nice dyno produced
HP
> curve printed out for bragging rights.

I hear you.  ;)  One thing to consider, too, is that
an inertial dyno (DynoJet in particular) will read
about 18% higher than a corresponding eddy current
dyno.  While the numbers from the eddy current are not
only more repeatable, but more accurate as well, you
get better bragging rights with a DynoJet,
particularly if you can find one that reads higher
than the oens all your buddies use.  ;)

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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Message: 10
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
From: "Rick" 
Cc: 
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:05:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hitachi MCU info
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org


IIRC some Hondas use a version of Hitachi H8 MCU, probably others too.  For
those interested, here is a link to Hitachi online training material for
this processor:

http://hitachi.techonline.com 

This takes you to a registration page.  Once registered, go to the Hitachi
Interactive home page and click on Catalog.  

They have an introduction, architecture info, material on software
development tools, etc.

Download away :-)

Rick
replyto:RickSS96 at excite.com

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From Sean.Richards at diageo.com  Thu Dec 19 16:20:19 2002
From: Sean.Richards at diageo.com (Richards, Sean)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:20:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #428 - 11 msgs
Message-ID: 

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	does anyone here know if the 1.8 t engine can fit into a 1988 a2
engine bay.
	i have someone will to sell me everything from a 2000 1.8 t jetta.


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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Thu Dec 19 16:28:28 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (A6intruder)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:28:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

OK Mike,  Thrashing received.  Next time I'll only post if I have my list of
SAE papers as references.  But since I've entered into an interesting area
of discussion I'll continue my thought process because I obviously didn't
convey my complete thought.  And yes you're right I haven't read every post
ever made on this list, AND, this list isn't my only source of learning.

My beginning statement:
>Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane actually
>controls ping by slowing down the burn.
I actually have read about the octane, studied combustion thermodynamics
going through college, and no I'm sure I don't have your level of expertise.
However, my understanding of the typical combustion event is that as the
flame front starts, pressures and temperatures start to rise.  As temps and
pressure rise this allows the flame front to move faster and the goal is to
complete the burn in an orderly manner before the temp/pressure conditions
allow the fuel to go high order, detonate.  The net effect of a higher
octane fuel is to delay that critical temp/pressure point long enough to
avoid detonation.  My understanding has been (this is why I like to continue
the learning process even in my old age) that high octane fuels achieve this
by slowing the combustion process.  This sounds counter productive but since
the speed of the flame front increases drastically as temp-pressure builds,
actually forming a shock wave as it approaches the detonation level, slower
combustion actually delays the build up of the shock wave ever so slightly
effectively allowing the flame front to finish it's travel throughout the
mixture before hitting the critical temp-pressure point.  I think, and you
might actually agree with this, that the octane rating system is fairly
imperfect system of inferring a pre-ignition and detonation resistance.

Second part of my original statement:  This is why a very low HP/cubic
>inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.

My point here is that many commoners I know take a normal street car, we'll
use a 1994 Mustang GT with purely stock 215 HP motor, and put premium in the
car and say it gives them better performance.  The stock tune on that car
needed 89 octane to keep from pinging under any thrashing based on my 65,000
of use in purely stock trim.  Since this engine control system does not have
knock sensors, it maintains whatever spark table it has  and does not on its
own make use of the advantage premium offers.  As you authoritatively state
the only power difference between the two fuels in this case would be based
their formulation and actual BTU released in combustion, probably not
measurable by the "seat of the pants".  Without changing timing one could
not expect any significant change of power by just changing fuel.  That was
the point of that statement.

Thank you,

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Mike
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 9:10 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?

At 08:35 AM 12/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane actually
>controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
>inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.

Daniel,

You are wrong on all points, I take it you either havent been on this
list for long or havent read anything about octane, what it is or how
its measured...

Referring to your three sentences above, denoted as a to c:-

a.      Octane has negligible effect on speed of burn,
        ability to resist spontaneous ignition due to rising temperature
        or pressure has negligible relationship to the speed of burn,
        these are separate issues. It is possible to contrive a
        mixture of fuels to achieve higher octane whilst also reducing
        the burn rate but it is also possible to do the exact opposite.

        Think about the fuels used in F1, highest octane and faster
        burn then our engines, how else could they operate with reasonable
        power outputs at 15,000 rpm.

b.      Higher octane doesnt 'control' ping, it *only* means its less
        likely to ping ie more resitant to ping but has negligible
        relationship to speed of burn.

c.      Any HP/ci engine may not have any imporvement in power out if
        higher octane is used *because* higher octane fuels may not
        necessarily have more energy than lower octane fuels. However,
        if an engine is retuned for higher octane - such as advancing
        the timing or raising the boost then its possible to both
        improve economy and raise power output as required. So bear in
        mind there are four separate issues which 'might' overlap,
        and these are:

        -       Octane rating
        -       Speed of burn
        -       Energy content
        -       Volatility

Its possible with the large variety of fuel components available
(ie. Flammible petrochemicals) that a particular combination can
be reached for a particular aim - but it in no way means there
is an automatic causal relationship between octane and speed of burn,
none, zero - zilch !

I'm sure others on this list can articulate this better than can, I
dont know where you got your information from but its rather one
dimensional and makes woefully invalid generalisations which can
lead people astray - the issue is not at all as simple as you
suggest.

Eg. Here in Australia (amoung others) we have these fuels:-

1.      Unleaded, 92 octane (sometimes reaches 94)
2.      Premium, 96 octane, same energy as 1, same effective speed
        of burn - or actually a little faster as a porsch tuner has
        suggested to me.
3.      BP Ultimate, 98 octane *and* a little higher energy than
        1 or 2 plus a detergent/friction modifier of sorts but BP
        arent saying precisely. Recommended for high performance
        engines where higher speed of burn is more likely to occur.

There are others but I think you get the picture, have a search
for research octane number (RON) and motor octane number (MON).

rgds

mike



>Daniel R. Nicoson
>Equipment Exchange Company
>Phone:  (814) 774-0888
>Fax:      (814) 774-0880
>
>-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
>Of Mike
>Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:26 AM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>
>At 11:23 AM 18/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>--- "Geddes, Brian J" 
>>wrote:
>>Well, if you are talking in that sense, simply up the
>>octane to cover the extra compression.  However, you
>>can run into a point of diminishing returns as far as
>>power output at higher rpms with the slower burn...
>
>Huh ?
>
>WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?
>
>Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?
>
>Mike
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Thu Dec 19 16:31:10 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:31:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #428 - 11 msgs
Message-ID: 

> does anyone here know if the 1.8 t engine can fit into a 1988 a2
> engine bay.
> i have someone will to sell me everything from a 2000 1.8 t jetta.

I'm pretty sure it will FIT.  the question is a mount kit and turbo
clearance and plumbing, but the engine itself will fit, as far as I know.

Hell, if the VR6 can go into an A2 chassis, I don't see why a 1.8T can't!


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From shannen at grolen.com  Thu Dec 19 16:59:40 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:59:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Didn't you once say you specialize in asking questions?  This is a great
one.  It's funny how we have an instinctive grasp of engine load, and
yet the definition can get very slippery when we try to put our fingers
on it.  

I should probably look around for an official definiton for engine
load.  I would say, with some thought, that load is resistance to
acceleration.  In this way, 100% load describes a situation in which the
engine is unable to accelerate, and zero load (which is physically
impossible) describes a situation where the engine can change speed
instantly.  Also, an engine under zero load is unable to produce either
torque or power, as those values are both defined in part by
acceleration.   This definition also allows load to be independent of
power and torque.  

In regards to the dyno, with load defined as resistance to acceleration,
we can apply an inertial load by using the tendency of mass to resist
acceleration, or we can apply a resistive load, which is a force, to
maintain a desired acceleration.  The resistive load can be measured
directly, as in a friction brake dyno, where power and torque values can
be worked out from the known force.  In the case of the electric brake
dyno, we can measure power required to maintain a desired acceleration
directly and calculate torque.  We generally don't take into account any
friction made at the contact patch between tires and rollers.  Instead
we calculate or measure the power required to produce acceleration at
the roller and assign that to the power produced by the wheels.  When
the dyno is producing an "8hp load" it's really creating a force equal
to the force applied by the wheels, but opposite in direction, and so is
creating a negative acceleration.  Load on the street would be a
combination of the inertia of the drivetrain, force of gravity, wind
resistance, and friction.

The true measure of load is change in rpm.  We are lucky to have a
natural ability to modulate engine power to meet load without even
thinking aboout it.  We can sense a change in acceleration and apply
more or less force to the road to meet that change in acceleration.  How
we apply more or less force is by modulating the throttle.  So we
associate load with throttle position.  If we grew up driving 2500 lb
vans with 10 horsepower engines, we might not have that association. 
The throttle would in that case be almost always fully on or fully off,
and we might only tend to think of situations where we need to apply
negative acceleration to slow down.  We also associate load with MAP, as
we know there's a fundamental air flow relationship between throttle
restriction and the pressure across the restriction.  When MAP is high,
it infers less restriction, which must mean we're attempting to overcome
a large load.

The issue between "large" and "small" loads shows up over time.  We live
in a world of finite distances.  To cross these distances, we tend to
assign an expected time.  Even without a watch, we have a sense of speed
that we use, which measures the time it takes to cross a percieved
distance.  With our grasp of speed and time, we modulate power to create
the acceleration we need to cross the percieved distance in the expected
time. : )

So where does this lead?  If we had a perception that was directly
related to the energy released by consuming fuel, in addition to the
velocity and acceleration that results from burning fuel in the engine,
then we might know without thinking that not all energy released in
combustion creates a force on the crank.  A fair amount of that energy
heats parts.  

Adam mentioned earlier that there's a fixed rate of heat transfer
through metals.  When an engine has been operating for a long enough
time, the temp of the cooling system + the temperatures of the heads and
pistons + the energy vented out the exhaust + the power output at the
crank has reached an equilibrium with the energy  produced by
combustion.  If we now desire to cover a distance in less time, produce
an acceleration, we consume additional fuel, convert additional energy,
to produce that acceleration.  If the duration of this event is short,
we don't make large changes to the equilibrium of the of the cooling
system/heads/wasted energy/crankshaft power system.  There isn't enough
time to significantly heat the cooling system and heads, and what isn't
used at the crank ends up in the exhaust.  As the time through which we
accelerate increases, so does the time which excess heat energy can heat
the cylinder heads and cooling system.  And the slower the acceleration,
the longer it takes for the exhaust and intake cycles, the less heat
energy is removed from the cylinder through these means.

Power production drops as density of the air entering the combustion
chamber drops.  Power maximized by adjusting the start of the burn to a
specific time will drop when the rate of burn changes.  If we go from
combustion to detonation, power production drops off rapidly, engine
damage is looming.  Increasing the heat level of the system will
generally decrease intake air density, decrease burn times, and
aggravate detonation.  It's important to fight these gremlins.

Decreasing air density suggests decreases in fuel.  Increasing burn rate
requires delaying the start of the burn.  But the real killer is
detonation.  No matter how carefully we adjust fuel and spark, if we end
up with detonation we lose power and eventually parts.  To prevent
detonation, we have some options:  1) reduce the time we spend
converting energy, that is, lighten the vehicle or let off the throttle.
2) alter the relationship between the engine's acceleration and our own:
change gearing, alter the load on the engine.  3) reduce the energy we
produce:  add an inert gas to the combustion process, for example  4)
try to keep the heat energy away from the cylinder heads.

Most tuning at the dyno centers around option 4.  We already work to
keep heat energy away from the heads during acceleration by providing a
mixture rich in fuel.  A/F mixtures richer than roughly 14.7:1 don't
react any more fuel than mixtures at 14.7:1.  But they absorb heat from
the combustion process and affect the burn rate.  So if we have a
situation where we're getting additional heating of the chamber, we can
add more fuel to absorb the heat, displace oxygen, and decrease burn
rate.  The trick is to add just enough fuel to prevent detonation and to
not add so much that power drops unacceptably. 

Gear ratio compensations _should_ be time compensations.  I've never
used an ecu with a gear ratio compensation function, so they might be
just that.  But the time compensation should be (imo) to first reduce
spark then add additional cooling media (fuel, water, alky, whatever) as
the amount of time under load increases.  For control systems which do
not have time compensations, the tuner must estimate if and when
cylinder heating will cause detonation.  And the tuner must add the
necessary amount of fuel to prevent detonation before it happens.  Which
means that if the tuner is wrong, or if the conditions under which he's
made his estimation are substantially different from the operating
conditions of the vehicle, his tune is less than the best.



Shannen
William Shurvinton wrote:
> 
> I must admit in shame that there are a couple of concepts here that I am
> still having difficulty getting my head around, despite having followed it
> each time it is discussed. Whilst I understand that a truck engine in a
> truck has to work harder than the same engine in a hotrod I still have
> confusions about 'load'.
> 
> I can't help wondering whether is it because I am thinking about it from a
> MAP or TPS% perspective (NA). These are used to infer load, but are merely
> measures or inferences of the air entering the engine. So if you are
> comparing 2 applications on part throttle, for the same throttle opening,
> the light vehicle will need less fuel than the heavy one. Normally you
> modulate the throttle to match the load so you don't actually see this,
> except perhaps the drivability issues with a non-linear throttle reponse due
> to having too little 'load'. Or to put it another way TPS% is a measure of
> potential power, not actual or required.
> 
> The Dyno of course has difficulty replicating this.
> 
> It may click after a few more years tuning the car, or am I still
> approaching it from the wrong direction?
> 
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shannen Durphey" 
> 
> 
> 
> ."  Yet again the tune for
> > the long, heavy load isn't optimum for the short, light load.
> >
> > Gear and load corrections can be a good thing.  > Shannen
> 
> >
> > Dave Dahlgren wrote:
> > >
> . The better after
> > > market stuff has tables and corrections for what gear you are in. You
> can and
> > > should change timing fueling and boost according what gear you are in as
> it
> > > compensates for the relative load on the engine.
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > Shannen Durphey wrote:
> > >
> > > > Using a braking type dyno to tune a car for WOT can produce misleading
> > > > results.  A lightweight car with a high power to weight ratio would
> > > > typically never see the same load and duration that can be applied
> with a
> > > > brake type dyno
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

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From eric.deslauriers at oracle.com  Thu Dec 19 17:49:01 2002
From: eric.deslauriers at oracle.com (Eric Deslauriers)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:49:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Shannen,

Wow! OK, I owe you a beer. That was EXCELLENT! :)

Eric D

> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of Shannen Durphey
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:52 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> 
> 
> Didn't you once say you specialize in asking questions?  This is a great
> one.  It's funny how we have an instinctive grasp of engine load, and
> yet the definition can get very slippery when we try to put our fingers
> on it.  
> 
> I should probably look around for an official definiton for engine
> load.  I would say, with some thought, that load is resistance to
> acceleration.  In this way, 100% load describes a situation in which the
> engine is unable to accelerate, and zero load (which is physically
> impossible) describes a situation where the engine can change speed
> instantly.  Also, an engine under zero load is unable to produce either
> torque or power, as those values are both defined in part by
> acceleration.   This definition also allows load to be independent of
> power and torque.  
> 
> In regards to the dyno, with load defined as resistance to acceleration,
> we can apply an inertial load by using the tendency of mass to resist
> acceleration, or we can apply a resistive load, which is a force, to
> maintain a desired acceleration.  The resistive load can be measured
> directly, as in a friction brake dyno, where power and torque values can
> be worked out from the known force.  In the case of the electric brake
> dyno, we can measure power required to maintain a desired acceleration
> directly and calculate torque.  We generally don't take into account any
> friction made at the contact patch between tires and rollers.  Instead
> we calculate or measure the power required to produce acceleration at
> the roller and assign that to the power produced by the wheels.  When
> the dyno is producing an "8hp load" it's really creating a force equal
> to the force applied by the wheels, but opposite in direction, and so is
> creating a negative acceleration.  Load on the street would be a
> combination of the inertia of the drivetrain, force of gravity, wind
> resistance, and friction.
> 
> The true measure of load is change in rpm.  We are lucky to have a
> natural ability to modulate engine power to meet load without even
> thinking aboout it.  We can sense a change in acceleration and apply
> more or less force to the road to meet that change in acceleration.  How
> we apply more or less force is by modulating the throttle.  So we
> associate load with throttle position.  If we grew up driving 2500 lb
> vans with 10 horsepower engines, we might not have that association. 
> The throttle would in that case be almost always fully on or fully off,
> and we might only tend to think of situations where we need to apply
> negative acceleration to slow down.  We also associate load with MAP, as
> we know there's a fundamental air flow relationship between throttle
> restriction and the pressure across the restriction.  When MAP is high,
> it infers less restriction, which must mean we're attempting to overcome
> a large load.
> 
> The issue between "large" and "small" loads shows up over time.  We live
> in a world of finite distances.  To cross these distances, we tend to
> assign an expected time.  Even without a watch, we have a sense of speed
> that we use, which measures the time it takes to cross a percieved
> distance.  With our grasp of speed and time, we modulate power to create
> the acceleration we need to cross the percieved distance in the expected
> time. : )
> 
> So where does this lead?  If we had a perception that was directly
> related to the energy released by consuming fuel, in addition to the
> velocity and acceleration that results from burning fuel in the engine,
> then we might know without thinking that not all energy released in
> combustion creates a force on the crank.  A fair amount of that energy
> heats parts.  
> 
> Adam mentioned earlier that there's a fixed rate of heat transfer
> through metals.  When an engine has been operating for a long enough
> time, the temp of the cooling system + the temperatures of the heads and
> pistons + the energy vented out the exhaust + the power output at the
> crank has reached an equilibrium with the energy  produced by
> combustion.  If we now desire to cover a distance in less time, produce
> an acceleration, we consume additional fuel, convert additional energy,
> to produce that acceleration.  If the duration of this event is short,
> we don't make large changes to the equilibrium of the of the cooling
> system/heads/wasted energy/crankshaft power system.  There isn't enough
> time to significantly heat the cooling system and heads, and what isn't
> used at the crank ends up in the exhaust.  As the time through which we
> accelerate increases, so does the time which excess heat energy can heat
> the cylinder heads and cooling system.  And the slower the acceleration,
> the longer it takes for the exhaust and intake cycles, the less heat
> energy is removed from the cylinder through these means.
> 
> Power production drops as density of the air entering the combustion
> chamber drops.  Power maximized by adjusting the start of the burn to a
> specific time will drop when the rate of burn changes.  If we go from
> combustion to detonation, power production drops off rapidly, engine
> damage is looming.  Increasing the heat level of the system will
> generally decrease intake air density, decrease burn times, and
> aggravate detonation.  It's important to fight these gremlins.
> 
> Decreasing air density suggests decreases in fuel.  Increasing burn rate
> requires delaying the start of the burn.  But the real killer is
> detonation.  No matter how carefully we adjust fuel and spark, if we end
> up with detonation we lose power and eventually parts.  To prevent
> detonation, we have some options:  1) reduce the time we spend
> converting energy, that is, lighten the vehicle or let off the throttle.
> 2) alter the relationship between the engine's acceleration and our own:
> change gearing, alter the load on the engine.  3) reduce the energy we
> produce:  add an inert gas to the combustion process, for example  4)
> try to keep the heat energy away from the cylinder heads.
> 
> Most tuning at the dyno centers around option 4.  We already work to
> keep heat energy away from the heads during acceleration by providing a
> mixture rich in fuel.  A/F mixtures richer than roughly 14.7:1 don't
> react any more fuel than mixtures at 14.7:1.  But they absorb heat from
> the combustion process and affect the burn rate.  So if we have a
> situation where we're getting additional heating of the chamber, we can
> add more fuel to absorb the heat, displace oxygen, and decrease burn
> rate.  The trick is to add just enough fuel to prevent detonation and to
> not add so much that power drops unacceptably. 
> 
> Gear ratio compensations _should_ be time compensations.  I've never
> used an ecu with a gear ratio compensation function, so they might be
> just that.  But the time compensation should be (imo) to first reduce
> spark then add additional cooling media (fuel, water, alky, whatever) as
> the amount of time under load increases.  For control systems which do
> not have time compensations, the tuner must estimate if and when
> cylinder heating will cause detonation.  And the tuner must add the
> necessary amount of fuel to prevent detonation before it happens.  Which
> means that if the tuner is wrong, or if the conditions under which he's
> made his estimation are substantially different from the operating
> conditions of the vehicle, his tune is less than the best.
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Thu Dec 19 17:49:44 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:49:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

 Well  wasnt intending to er um thrash, just driving the
point with a bit of rationale to make it as crystal as possible given
the affects of white whine, crackers, cheese and glaced ginger and
the after-effects of a day at 40deg C  and 39Deg C tomorrow !...

Seriously, in reference to your first para response, there is an
implicit assumption you might be making re energy levels,

That is; Bear in mind the energy level available to detonate fuel
some way ahead of the flame front is far less than the energy the
flame front imparts to enable it to propogate and maintain the
advancing more or less orderly ignition, therefore (and I
dont know the ratio) the effect of octane on flame front propogation
(overall) is likely to be small - if I infer correctly that there
is a huge differential in the energy levels just described.

In reference to your 2nd para response, there are huge disturbingly
present psychological factors readily noticable (ie amoungst the
young not practised at self observation) that what they expect is
what they get with a high level of positive feedback and satisfaction :)
I've observed this from personal experience, many years ago I fixed
the knob on the gear lever (when I was 19) on my ford escort and
it actually felt like it ran smoother, and my autonomic nervous
system doubtlessly assisted the process by less eratic throttle
movements (unknown to me at the time) - so a  noncausal trigger
did result in a change in engine behaviour - just like magic <:o)

There are other probabilistic variables and as a consequence of
experience amoung the uninformed this becomes a myth and can also
be propogated by the evils of the internet...

I hear you and understand the potential dilema but, there aint no
real reason for that perception though it can be explained
circumstantially if it can be quantified - who knows - there may
actually have been fuel from differnt suppliers with different
energy levels.

Oh ! And the other issue is 'silent detonation', Its entirely
possible the original operation on unleaded could have been
marginal and switching to premium got around the silent
detonation issue which robs power but isnt readily noticeable
hence switching to premium did actually give a seat of the pants
effective improvement. To be sure one could go back and observe
the details at the lower grade of fuel but, frankly what the
hell - just get more white whine, cheese, glaced ginger and
licorice and go to sleep with interesting dreams ~`:o)


cest la vi,

 Off to sleep its 1:30am here,

Mike
http://www.iinet.net.au/~erazmus



At 11:30 AM 12/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
>OK Mike,  Thrashing received.  Next time I'll only post if I have my list of
>SAE papers as references.  But since I've entered into an interesting area
>of discussion I'll continue my thought process because I obviously didn't
>convey my complete thought.  And yes you're right I haven't read every post
>ever made on this list, AND, this list isn't my only source of learning.
>
>My beginning statement:
>>Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane actually
>>controls ping by slowing down the burn.
>I actually have read about the octane, studied combustion thermodynamics
>going through college, and no I'm sure I don't have your level of expertise.
>However, my understanding of the typical combustion event is that as the
>flame front starts, pressures and temperatures start to rise.  As temps and
>pressure rise this allows the flame front to move faster and the goal is to
>complete the burn in an orderly manner before the temp/pressure conditions
>allow the fuel to go high order, detonate.  The net effect of a higher
>octane fuel is to delay that critical temp/pressure point long enough to
>avoid detonation.  My understanding has been (this is why I like to continue
>the learning process even in my old age) that high octane fuels achieve this
>by slowing the combustion process.  This sounds counter productive but since
>the speed of the flame front increases drastically as temp-pressure builds,
>actually forming a shock wave as it approaches the detonation level, slower
>combustion actually delays the build up of the shock wave ever so slightly
>effectively allowing the flame front to finish it's travel throughout the
>mixture before hitting the critical temp-pressure point.  I think, and you
>might actually agree with this, that the octane rating system is fairly
>imperfect system of inferring a pre-ignition and detonation resistance.
>
>Second part of my original statement:  This is why a very low HP/cubic
>>inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.
>
>My point here is that many commoners I know take a normal street car, we'll
>use a 1994 Mustang GT with purely stock 215 HP motor, and put premium in the
>car and say it gives them better performance.  The stock tune on that car
>needed 89 octane to keep from pinging under any thrashing based on my 65,000
>of use in purely stock trim.  Since this engine control system does not have
>knock sensors, it maintains whatever spark table it has  and does not on its
>own make use of the advantage premium offers.  As you authoritatively state
>the only power difference between the two fuels in this case would be based
>their formulation and actual BTU released in combustion, probably not
>measurable by the "seat of the pants".  Without changing timing one could
>not expect any significant change of power by just changing fuel.  That was
>the point of that statement.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Daniel R. Nicoson
>Equipment Exchange Company
>Phone:  (814) 774-0888
>Fax:      (814) 774-0880
>
>-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
>Of Mike
>Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 9:10 AM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>
>At 08:35 AM 12/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane actually
>>controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
>>inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.
>
>Daniel,
>
>You are wrong on all points, I take it you either havent been on this
>list for long or havent read anything about octane, what it is or how
>its measured...
>
>Referring to your three sentences above, denoted as a to c:-
>
>a.      Octane has negligible effect on speed of burn,
>        ability to resist spontaneous ignition due to rising temperature
>        or pressure has negligible relationship to the speed of burn,
>        these are separate issues. It is possible to contrive a
>        mixture of fuels to achieve higher octane whilst also reducing
>        the burn rate but it is also possible to do the exact opposite.
>
>        Think about the fuels used in F1, highest octane and faster
>        burn then our engines, how else could they operate with reasonable
>        power outputs at 15,000 rpm.
>
>b.      Higher octane doesnt 'control' ping, it *only* means its less
>        likely to ping ie more resitant to ping but has negligible
>        relationship to speed of burn.
>
>c.      Any HP/ci engine may not have any imporvement in power out if
>        higher octane is used *because* higher octane fuels may not
>        necessarily have more energy than lower octane fuels. However,
>        if an engine is retuned for higher octane - such as advancing
>        the timing or raising the boost then its possible to both
>        improve economy and raise power output as required. So bear in
>        mind there are four separate issues which 'might' overlap,
>        and these are:
>
>        -       Octane rating
>        -       Speed of burn
>        -       Energy content
>        -       Volatility
>
>Its possible with the large variety of fuel components available
>(ie. Flammible petrochemicals) that a particular combination can
>be reached for a particular aim - but it in no way means there
>is an automatic causal relationship between octane and speed of burn,
>none, zero - zilch !
>
>I'm sure others on this list can articulate this better than can, I
>dont know where you got your information from but its rather one
>dimensional and makes woefully invalid generalisations which can
>lead people astray - the issue is not at all as simple as you
>suggest.
>
>Eg. Here in Australia (amoung others) we have these fuels:-
>
>1.      Unleaded, 92 octane (sometimes reaches 94)
>2.      Premium, 96 octane, same energy as 1, same effective speed
>        of burn - or actually a little faster as a porsch tuner has
>        suggested to me.
>3.      BP Ultimate, 98 octane *and* a little higher energy than
>        1 or 2 plus a detergent/friction modifier of sorts but BP
>        arent saying precisely. Recommended for high performance
>        engines where higher speed of burn is more likely to occur.
>
>There are others but I think you get the picture, have a search
>for research octane number (RON) and motor octane number (MON).
>
>rgds
>
>mike
>
>
>
>>Daniel R. Nicoson
>>Equipment Exchange Company
>>Phone:  (814) 774-0888
>>Fax:      (814) 774-0880
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
>>Of Mike
>>Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:26 AM
>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>>
>>At 11:23 AM 18/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>>--- "Geddes, Brian J" 
>>>wrote:
>>>Well, if you are talking in that sense, simply up the
>>>octane to cover the extra compression.  However, you
>>>can run into a point of diminishing returns as far as
>>>power output at higher rpms with the slower burn...
>>
>>Huh ?
>>
>>WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?
>>
>>Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Diy_efi mailing list
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>>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
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>>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Thu Dec 19 18:02:00 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:02:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

I have no clue what the beginning of this was alluding to as I could not follow
it. The part about decreased air density requiring less timing lost me. Are you
suggesting if the map sensor reads 20 kpa you would retard the timing from what
it is set at at 40kpa?? Air temperature increases need less timing yes but it is
not air density related at all.

If you have never worked with an ecu that has gear compensation then you don't
know how it works only how you would do it. Do yourself a favor. Next time you
are on the inertia dyno make a pull in first gear and one in high gear and data
log  the O2 readings for both runs. Show me the part where they are the same.
Detonation is so far removed from tuning racing engines that if you get to that
point you have truly lost the rabbit so to speak. Peak power +- 0.5% is quite a
ways from detonation. There is also no rule I have ever heard about keeping heat
out of the cylinder heads. It is a heat engine. more heat more power. If you
keep the heads cool you lose power warming them up. Make a pull at 130 degree
water temp and one at 190... see for yourself. same goes for oil temp.. Keeping
the engine cool only makes you more comfortable not the engine. If you are
keeping the heads cool to stay out of detonation then you are running too much
timing....


Dave

Shannen Durphey wrote:



> Gear ratio compensations _should_ be time compensations.  I've never
> used an ecu with a gear ratio compensation function, so they might be
> just that. 

 But the time compensation should be (imo) to first reduce
> spark then add additional cooling media (fuel, water, alky, whatever) as
> the amount of time under load increases.  For control systems which do
> not have time compensations, the tuner must estimate if and when
> cylinder heating will cause detonation.  And the tuner must add the
> necessary amount of fuel to prevent detonation before it happens.  Which
> means that if the tuner is wrong, or if the conditions under which he's
> made his estimation are substantially different from the operating
> conditions of the vehicle, his tune is less than the best.
> 
> 
> 
> Shannen


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From eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com  Thu Dec 19 18:13:49 2002
From: eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com (Eric.Fahlgren)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:13:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Shannen Durphey wrote:

> I should probably look around for an official definiton for engine
> load.  I would say, with some thought, that load is resistance to

Wow, Shannen, this one's a real keeper.  I've thought about the
definition of load many times, but never came up with anything
as nice as your description here.  I like it a lot.

> mixture rich in fuel.  A/F mixtures richer than roughly 14.7:1 don't
> react any more fuel than mixtures at 14.7:1.  But they absorb heat from

Well, I think this would be true if you had complete vaporization
of the fuel, but for our liquid gasoline it's probably not the case
due to "big" fuel particles (and hence the oft-quoted "best power at
13.2:1").

-- 
Eric Fahlgren                                        MSC.Software
Simulating Reality                       Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

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From hugh at sol.co.uk  Thu Dec 19 18:17:06 2002
From: hugh at sol.co.uk (Hugh Keir)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:17:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 


Mike wrote "Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking
" - yes

This is at its most basic level achieved by altering the fuel to burn more
predictably and slowly by removing the most volatile components or modifying
the way that the most volatile components burn with additives.

In short octane has everything to do with the speed of the burn.

High octane fuels do not necessarily give the most power. Brian Geddes
posted a couple of days ago that his Miata did not knock regardless of
ignition timing. In this situation, it might be worth trying a lower octane
fuel which when optimised for timing and fuel mixture may give a higher
cylinder pressure through the faster burn and therefore slightly more power
even though the calorific values of the high and low octane fuels are
similar.

Do not confuse high octane with high energy as unless it is a racing fuel,
the two do not normally go hand in hand.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:25 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?


> At 11:23 AM 18/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >--- "Geddes, Brian J" 
> >wrote:
> >Well, if you are talking in that sense, simply up the
> >octane to cover the extra compression.  However, you
> >can run into a point of diminishing returns as far as
> >power output at higher rpms with the slower burn...
>
> Huh ?
>
> WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?
>
> Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?
>
> Mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>




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From hugh at sol.co.uk  Thu Dec 19 18:23:18 2002
From: hugh at sol.co.uk (Hugh Keir)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:23:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator - FYI
Message-ID: 

Thanks Scott,

I posted these links and a couple of others on here some time ago.

The advantage of doing it yourself is that I already have a datalog of most
of the engines parameters and being able to see the BHP against the air /
fuel ratio, engine knock level and ignition timing several times a second
means that the optimisation process is for me simpler, safer for the engine
and more interesting.

I also use the spreadsheet to highlight results where the knock is above a
certain level and the AFR is richer or leaner than needed.

I am also able to use the spreadsheet to highlight which Load and RPM point
was being used again speeding up the tuning process.

I also do this for a hobby not a living.

I haven't checked these links, but here are the others I previously posted.

On Track Dyno       http://www.ontrackdigital.com/generic.html?pid=4
Revtrigger             http://www.students.tut.fi/~eppu/bin/rev.html#Updates

Cheers

Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Campbell." 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator - FYI


> Hugh,
>
> You may enjoy reinventing the wheel, and that is OK, but for us lazy types
there is a nice little program called StreetDyno:
> http://www.tweecer.com/StreetDyno/
>
> and another one called RoadDyno:
> http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/roaddyno/dyno.htm
>
> They do lack your AFR correlation though.
>
> Scott.
>
> Hugh Keir wrote:
>
> > Here is a great set of worked calculations that take you through it step
by
> > step.
> >
> > http://members.home.net/rck/phor/06-Speed.html titled The Physics of
Racing,
> > Part 6: Speed and Horsepower
> >
> > I have been using them to produce a spreadsheet to calculate BHP, torque
etc
> > using a datalogged RPM and vehicle speed signal.
> >
> > The density of air changes with humidity / pressure which I also added
to
> > the calculations.
> >
> > I also have a column for AFR from my DIY wideband to look for the best
> > acceleration against which AFR
> >
> > My spreadsheet is 95% finished, I still have some problems with the
numbers
> > in the dyno sheet.
> >
> > What have you used to obtain your datalog?
> >
> > Hugh
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From wd0fyf at cox.net  Thu Dec 19 18:23:57 2002
From: wd0fyf at cox.net (Gerald Pelnar)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:23:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hexfile Map Structures
Message-ID: 

I must have missed it somewhere. What does Bosch use for a processor?

Gerald Pelnar WD0FYF
McPherson, KS
wd0fyf at cox.net
http://members.cox.net/wd0fyf/

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Stephan Helbig 
To: Efi Mailingliste 
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:56 AM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hexfile Map Structures


> Hello,
> 
> Maybe someone can give me a little hint on that:
> I'm working on several Bosch ECU hexfiles and already found out several
> maps which are said to have a DAMOS structure: number of x-markers,
> number of y-markers; x-values, y-values; map values (z-values). With
> this I can draw a 3-dimensional graph.
> Anyway this only works when I can clearly differentiate between
> programmed and non-programmed (FFFFF) sections. Many Bosch files however
> seem to have the maps within other programmed sections so one cannot
> start from the beginning of them. There must be a map-marker value at
> the beginning of each map (as far as I'm correct here) and also the
> structure seems to be different.
> Does anyone know about different structures in hexfiles and how they
> work if you want to find and define distinct maps?
> 
> Any help would be much appreciated.
> 
> Stephan
> 
> 
> -- 
> My Homepage:
> http://www.e-ger-translation.de
> http://people.freenet.de/sthl/
> --
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From wingell at charter.net  Thu Dec 19 18:28:06 2002
From: wingell at charter.net (Joshua Wingell)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:28:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:12:38 -0500
  Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
>There is also no rule I have ever 
>heard about keeping heat
>out of the cylinder heads. It is a heat engine. more heat 
>more power. If you
>keep the heads cool you lose power warming them up. Make 
>a pull at 130 degree
>water temp and one at 190... 

To support this...

In May of this year, I blew my headgasket at the track 
(forgot to install the head location dowels when I 
installed the head!) on my 97 Eclipse GSX.

I didn't notice it right away, though.  I made another 
pass.

I think the head was partially or completely devoid of 
coolant.  The extra heat in the combustion chamber caused 
the car to run like a raped ape. It was pulling harder 
than I've ever felt it pull before, and with fuel settings 
about 7% richer than they ought to be. 90.5 in the 1/8th! 
Doh! 12.52 at 112mph with a lousy 1.88 60-ft.

I noticed that my radiator hose was empty just before the 
next pass.  I mentioned that I thought I blew my 
headgasket to a friend.  He asked, "What did you run?" 
 "12.52 at 112mph"  "Riiight, sure sounds 'blown' to me."

Well, it was.  I put in some more coolant and I ran 
anyway. But it felt strange. So I let off. I ran a 
12.6 at 110.8mph letting off in 3rd and 4th gear.  Blew my 
dipstick out.  Upper radiator hose was dry again.

These runs were on VP C16 117 octane leaded fuel, btw.

If only I could replicate that power without the 
inevitable melty-ness that would accompany the extra heat. 
 

Josh

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Thu Dec 19 18:47:27 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:47:27 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Well you can.... Insulate the head and pistons and cylinder walls with the
appropriate coatings. Raise the cooling system preuure a lot.. A Nissan ZX GTP
Turbo car runs coolant pressure around 50 psi static.. Dead soft copper head
gasket with gas filled o-rings and very large studs to keep everything clamped
down tight..Oh yeah fill the bottom 1/2 of the block with 'hard block filler'
lots of companies make it. Might need some better valve seats as well but that
is no real biggy to be honest. You probably never got the thing over 230 to 240
in the first place..
There you go easy as that. 
Dave

Joshua Wingell wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:12:38 -0500
>   Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
> >There is also no rule I have ever
> >heard about keeping heat
> >out of the cylinder heads. It is a heat engine. more heat
> >more power. If you
> >keep the heads cool you lose power warming them up. Make
> >a pull at 130 degree
> >water temp and one at 190...
> 
> To support this...
> 
> In May of this year, I blew my headgasket at the track
> (forgot to install the head location dowels when I
> installed the head!) on my 97 Eclipse GSX.
> 
> I didn't notice it right away, though.  I made another
> pass.
> 
> I think the head was partially or completely devoid of
> coolant.  The extra heat in the combustion chamber caused
> the car to run like a raped ape. It was pulling harder
> than I've ever felt it pull before, and with fuel settings
> about 7% richer than they ought to be. 90.5 in the 1/8th!
> Doh! 12.52 at 112mph with a lousy 1.88 60-ft.
> 
> I noticed that my radiator hose was empty just before the
> next pass.  I mentioned that I thought I blew my
> headgasket to a friend.  He asked, "What did you run?"
>  "12.52 at 112mph"  "Riiight, sure sounds 'blown' to me."
> 
> Well, it was.  I put in some more coolant and I ran
> anyway. But it felt strange. So I let off. I ran a
> 12.6 at 110.8mph letting off in 3rd and 4th gear.  Blew my
> dipstick out.  Upper radiator hose was dry again.
> 
> These runs were on VP C16 117 octane leaded fuel, btw.
> 
> If only I could replicate that power without the
> inevitable melty-ness that would accompany the extra heat.
> 
> 
> Josh
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Thu Dec 19 19:00:52 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (A6intruder)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 16:00:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Back in the 1980's Smokey Yunick (I might have spelled that last name wrong)
was running some 4 cylinder Chrysler engines with the blocks made of silicon
carbide (I think).  It was some ceramic type material anyway.  No cooling
jacket at all, every part special made, turbocharged and I can't remember
but I think he was sucking through a carb (could've been fuel injected).
These little 4-bangers turned tremendous power.  He was trying to get great
performance and fuel efficiency by not sending the traditional 1/3 of the
BTU's out through the radiator.

It was a bizarre setup that ran apparently very well but I suspect was quite
expensive to build at that time.  I never heard much after reading that
article but the think supposedly ran great, like your melt-down Eclipse but
longer.

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Joshua Wingell
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:21 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:12:38 -0500
  Dave Dahlgren  wrote:
>There is also no rule I have ever
>heard about keeping heat
>out of the cylinder heads. It is a heat engine. more heat
>more power. If you
>keep the heads cool you lose power warming them up. Make
>a pull at 130 degree
>water temp and one at 190...

To support this...

In May of this year, I blew my headgasket at the track
(forgot to install the head location dowels when I
installed the head!) on my 97 Eclipse GSX.

I didn't notice it right away, though.  I made another
pass.

I think the head was partially or completely devoid of
coolant.  The extra heat in the combustion chamber caused
the car to run like a raped ape. It was pulling harder
than I've ever felt it pull before, and with fuel settings
about 7% richer than they ought to be. 90.5 in the 1/8th!
Doh! 12.52 at 112mph with a lousy 1.88 60-ft.

I noticed that my radiator hose was empty just before the
next pass.  I mentioned that I thought I blew my
headgasket to a friend.  He asked, "What did you run?"
 "12.52 at 112mph"  "Riiight, sure sounds 'blown' to me."

Well, it was.  I put in some more coolant and I ran
anyway. But it felt strange. So I let off. I ran a
12.6 at 110.8mph letting off in 3rd and 4th gear.  Blew my
dipstick out.  Upper radiator hose was dry again.

These runs were on VP C16 117 octane leaded fuel, btw.

If only I could replicate that power without the
inevitable melty-ness that would accompany the extra heat.


Josh

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From wingell at charter.net  Thu Dec 19 19:36:42 2002
From: wingell at charter.net (Joshua Wingell)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 16:36:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:01:39 -0500
  "A6intruder"  wrote:
> I never heard much 
>after reading that
>article but the think supposedly ran great, like your 
>melt-down Eclipse but
>longer.

I should mention that I didn't melt anything. :)  The 
block was fine, the pistons were fine, so was the head. 
 But I had 73psi compression in cylinder 4 due to the head 
gasket. :)

Josh

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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Thu Dec 19 19:40:09 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (A6intruder)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 16:40:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Mike,

I appreciate your more detailed analysis of the subject.  These discussions
are often a learning experience for me.  I certainly looked at my own
understanding of combustion more critically after reading your input.

That's the beauty of these forums, there's always someone with more detail
or experience that will share it, and if we don't know the answer, someone
else likely will.

Take care,

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Mike
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 12:53 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?

 Well  wasnt intending to er um thrash, just driving the
point with a bit of rationale to make it as crystal as possible given
the affects of white whine, crackers, cheese and glaced ginger and
the after-effects of a day at 40deg C  and 39Deg C tomorrow !...

Seriously, in reference to your first para response, there is an
implicit assumption you might be making re energy levels,

That is; Bear in mind the energy level available to detonate fuel
some way ahead of the flame front is far less than the energy the
flame front imparts to enable it to propogate and maintain the
advancing more or less orderly ignition, therefore (and I
dont know the ratio) the effect of octane on flame front propogation
(overall) is likely to be small - if I infer correctly that there
is a huge differential in the energy levels just described.

In reference to your 2nd para response, there are huge disturbingly
present psychological factors readily noticable (ie amoungst the
young not practised at self observation) that what they expect is
what they get with a high level of positive feedback and satisfaction :)
I've observed this from personal experience, many years ago I fixed
the knob on the gear lever (when I was 19) on my ford escort and
it actually felt like it ran smoother, and my autonomic nervous
system doubtlessly assisted the process by less eratic throttle
movements (unknown to me at the time) - so a  noncausal trigger
did result in a change in engine behaviour - just like magic <:o)

There are other probabilistic variables and as a consequence of
experience amoung the uninformed this becomes a myth and can also
be propogated by the evils of the internet...

I hear you and understand the potential dilema but, there aint no
real reason for that perception though it can be explained
circumstantially if it can be quantified - who knows - there may
actually have been fuel from differnt suppliers with different
energy levels.

Oh ! And the other issue is 'silent detonation', Its entirely
possible the original operation on unleaded could have been
marginal and switching to premium got around the silent
detonation issue which robs power but isnt readily noticeable
hence switching to premium did actually give a seat of the pants
effective improvement. To be sure one could go back and observe
the details at the lower grade of fuel but, frankly what the
hell - just get more white whine, cheese, glaced ginger and
licorice and go to sleep with interesting dreams ~`:o)


cest la vi,

 Off to sleep its 1:30am here,

Mike
http://www.iinet.net.au/~erazmus



At 11:30 AM 12/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
>OK Mike,  Thrashing received.  Next time I'll only post if I have my list
of
>SAE papers as references.  But since I've entered into an interesting area
>of discussion I'll continue my thought process because I obviously didn't
>convey my complete thought.  And yes you're right I haven't read every post
>ever made on this list, AND, this list isn't my only source of learning.
>
>My beginning statement:
>>Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane
actually
>>controls ping by slowing down the burn.
>I actually have read about the octane, studied combustion thermodynamics
>going through college, and no I'm sure I don't have your level of
expertise.
>However, my understanding of the typical combustion event is that as the
>flame front starts, pressures and temperatures start to rise.  As temps and
>pressure rise this allows the flame front to move faster and the goal is to
>complete the burn in an orderly manner before the temp/pressure conditions
>allow the fuel to go high order, detonate.  The net effect of a higher
>octane fuel is to delay that critical temp/pressure point long enough to
>avoid detonation.  My understanding has been (this is why I like to
continue
>the learning process even in my old age) that high octane fuels achieve
this
>by slowing the combustion process.  This sounds counter productive but
since
>the speed of the flame front increases drastically as temp-pressure builds,
>actually forming a shock wave as it approaches the detonation level, slower
>combustion actually delays the build up of the shock wave ever so slightly
>effectively allowing the flame front to finish it's travel throughout the
>mixture before hitting the critical temp-pressure point.  I think, and you
>might actually agree with this, that the octane rating system is fairly
>imperfect system of inferring a pre-ignition and detonation resistance.
>
>Second part of my original statement:  This is why a very low HP/cubic
>>inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.
>
>My point here is that many commoners I know take a normal street car, we'll
>use a 1994 Mustang GT with purely stock 215 HP motor, and put premium in
the
>car and say it gives them better performance.  The stock tune on that car
>needed 89 octane to keep from pinging under any thrashing based on my
65,000
>of use in purely stock trim.  Since this engine control system does not
have
>knock sensors, it maintains whatever spark table it has  and does not on
its
>own make use of the advantage premium offers.  As you authoritatively state
>the only power difference between the two fuels in this case would be based
>their formulation and actual BTU released in combustion, probably not
>measurable by the "seat of the pants".  Without changing timing one could
>not expect any significant change of power by just changing fuel.  That was
>the point of that statement.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Daniel R. Nicoson
>Equipment Exchange Company
>Phone:  (814) 774-0888
>Fax:      (814) 774-0880
>
>-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
>Of Mike
>Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 9:10 AM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>
>At 08:35 AM 12/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane
actually
>>controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
>>inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.
>
>Daniel,
>
>You are wrong on all points, I take it you either havent been on this
>list for long or havent read anything about octane, what it is or how
>its measured...
>
>Referring to your three sentences above, denoted as a to c:-
>
>a.      Octane has negligible effect on speed of burn,
>        ability to resist spontaneous ignition due to rising temperature
>        or pressure has negligible relationship to the speed of burn,
>        these are separate issues. It is possible to contrive a
>        mixture of fuels to achieve higher octane whilst also reducing
>        the burn rate but it is also possible to do the exact opposite.
>
>        Think about the fuels used in F1, highest octane and faster
>        burn then our engines, how else could they operate with reasonable
>        power outputs at 15,000 rpm.
>
>b.      Higher octane doesnt 'control' ping, it *only* means its less
>        likely to ping ie more resitant to ping but has negligible
>        relationship to speed of burn.
>
>c.      Any HP/ci engine may not have any imporvement in power out if
>        higher octane is used *because* higher octane fuels may not
>        necessarily have more energy than lower octane fuels. However,
>        if an engine is retuned for higher octane - such as advancing
>        the timing or raising the boost then its possible to both
>        improve economy and raise power output as required. So bear in
>        mind there are four separate issues which 'might' overlap,
>        and these are:
>
>        -       Octane rating
>        -       Speed of burn
>        -       Energy content
>        -       Volatility
>
>Its possible with the large variety of fuel components available
>(ie. Flammible petrochemicals) that a particular combination can
>be reached for a particular aim - but it in no way means there
>is an automatic causal relationship between octane and speed of burn,
>none, zero - zilch !
>
>I'm sure others on this list can articulate this better than can, I
>dont know where you got your information from but its rather one
>dimensional and makes woefully invalid generalisations which can
>lead people astray - the issue is not at all as simple as you
>suggest.
>
>Eg. Here in Australia (amoung others) we have these fuels:-
>
>1.      Unleaded, 92 octane (sometimes reaches 94)
>2.      Premium, 96 octane, same energy as 1, same effective speed
>        of burn - or actually a little faster as a porsch tuner has
>        suggested to me.
>3.      BP Ultimate, 98 octane *and* a little higher energy than
>        1 or 2 plus a detergent/friction modifier of sorts but BP
>        arent saying precisely. Recommended for high performance
>        engines where higher speed of burn is more likely to occur.
>
>There are others but I think you get the picture, have a search
>for research octane number (RON) and motor octane number (MON).
>
>rgds
>
>mike
>
>
>
>>Daniel R. Nicoson
>>Equipment Exchange Company
>>Phone:  (814) 774-0888
>>Fax:      (814) 774-0880
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf
>>Of Mike
>>Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:26 AM
>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>>
>>At 11:23 AM 18/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>>--- "Geddes, Brian J" 
>>>wrote:
>>>Well, if you are talking in that sense, simply up the
>>>octane to cover the extra compression.  However, you
>>>can run into a point of diminishing returns as far as
>>>power output at higher rpms with the slower burn...
>>
>>Huh ?
>>
>>WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?
>>
>>Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>

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From A6intruder at adelphia.net  Thu Dec 19 19:42:22 2002
From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (A6intruder)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 16:42:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Josh,

That's a relief, I didn't mean to make light of your problems.  I have
recently had the great honor of replacing 8 exhaust valves due to my
inexperience with cam timing.  Now I know how to do it right but those
teardowns are a lot of time and money.

Good luck on your project.

Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone:  (814) 774-0888
Fax:      (814) 774-0880

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Joshua Wingell
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:37 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org; diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:01:39 -0500
  "A6intruder"  wrote:
> I never heard much
>after reading that
>article but the think supposedly ran great, like your
>melt-down Eclipse but
>longer.

I should mention that I didn't melt anything. :)  The
block was fine, the pistons were fine, so was the head.
 But I had 73psi compression in cylinder 4 due to the head
gasket. :)

Josh

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 19 20:04:07 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:04:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

--- Hugh Keir  wrote:

> In short octane has everything to do with the speed
> of the burn.

I'd add that this is only completely true in pump gas.
 Racing fuels often will burn more rapidly than pump
gas without pinging.

> High octane fuels do not necessarily give the most
> power.

In fact, unless your timing is optimized for them, you
can LOSE power with them.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From scampbell at mrccos.com  Thu Dec 19 20:09:30 2002
From: scampbell at mrccos.com (Scott Campbell.)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:09:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator - FYI
Message-ID: 

Hi Hugh,

It sounds like you are way ahead of me.

Thanks for the links,

Scott.

Hugh Keir wrote:

> Thanks Scott,
>
> I posted these links and a couple of others on here some time ago.
>
> The advantage of doing it yourself is that I already have a datalog of most
> of the engines parameters and being able to see the BHP against the air /
> fuel ratio, engine knock level and ignition timing several times a second
> means that the optimisation process is for me simpler, safer for the engine
> and more interesting.
>
> I also use the spreadsheet to highlight results where the knock is above a
> certain level and the AFR is richer or leaner than needed.
>
> I am also able to use the spreadsheet to highlight which Load and RPM point
> was being used again speeding up the tuning process.
>
> I also do this for a hobby not a living.
>
> I haven't checked these links, but here are the others I previously posted.
>
> On Track Dyno       http://www.ontrackdigital.com/generic.html?pid=4
> Revtrigger             http://www.students.tut.fi/~eppu/bin/rev.html#Updates
>
> Cheers
>
> Hugh


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 19 20:10:41 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:10:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- bill.shurvinton at nokia.com wrote:

> The dyno can set a constant load of 8HP (once you
> have taken frictional loss differences due to 2
> contact patches etc into account). However at what
> throttle setting you should have 8 HP?

I don't tihnk there's any "should" about it.  At a
given throttle opening and rpm, an engine will deliver
a certain amount of power (assuming the same air
density, and the car is warmed up).  If it takes more
power than that to maintain speed, you'll decelerate;
less and you'll accelerate.  Exactly that much? 
You'll cruise.

> Given you have the curve of BSFC vs Power depending
> on the engine there are a range of throttle openings
> corresponding to the same 'load'.

Assuming different fueling.  I presume you meant to
say "same rpm" in there somewhere, since obviously if
you vary the rpm, there will be different load/speed
sites that make the same power, even when tuned for
the same goal.

> Tuning the whole map on a dyno for best power or
> best BSFC is obvious, but the blend between those
> would appear, at least to my inexperienced eyes, to
> be a challenge.

If you were so inclined, it seems to be simple enough
to average the fuel numbers on your map.  I'm not sure
what goial would be achieved by picking a particular
value between the two.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 19 20:15:52 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:15:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

> Anyway, there is a certain type of hydrocarbon chain
> (i guess octane, the longer chain)

Modern fuels have no straight iso-octane in them. 
That's a reference fuel.

> which takes more initial energy to cause a
combustion
> reaction.

Where did you hear that?

Common sense tells you that the more short pieces are
floating around, the more "open ends" are available to
combine with oxygen.  Volume x of longer chains has
fewer easily availavle binding sites for oxygen than
volume x of shorter chains.  Thus, longer chains tend
to burn more slowly, all other things being equal
(which in gasoline, like in tires, they are not).

> I don't believe that octane has anything to do with
> burn rate.

Not overall, but in pump gas, it has a very high
correlation.

> Now I could be totally wrong.  If the actual
> reaction takes longer, then yes, the burn is
> effectively slower.  The only way to know if the
> reaction takes longer would be to talk to a chemist
> who could tell you based on lots of fancy chemistry
> and thermodynamic things like gibbs energy and
> entropy and enthalpy and all that jazz.

...or look at the pressure curve during a burn, and
analyze what came out the tailpipe.  How do you think
people figured out all that nifty checmical science?

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 19 20:16:46 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:16:46 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- bill.shurvinton at nokia.com wrote:

> I can't grasp why terminal velocity tune loses power
> in lower gears

Same reason an inertial dyno is not a very good tuning
tool in many respects; when tuning in low gears, you
are only loading the engine with the inertia of the
vehicle.  Which means you are never placing it under a
full load for tuning purposes, unless you're climbing
a REALLY steep hill at the time.  Higher gear, longer
lever arm, more loading of the engine, a more accurate map.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Thu Dec 19 20:36:22 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:36:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

> Modern fuels have no straight iso-octane in them.
> That's a reference fuel.

ok cool.

> Common sense tells you that the more short pieces are
> floating around, the more "open ends" are available to
> combine with oxygen.  Volume x of longer chains has
> fewer easily availavle binding sites for oxygen than
> volume x of shorter chains.  Thus, longer chains tend
> to burn more slowly, all other things being equal
> (which in gasoline, like in tires, they are not).

There technically are no "open ends" on a complete hydrocarbon chain.
Unless you are dealing with double and triple bonded sections, the C's and
H's are pretty happy to be where they are, are they not?

Remember that CO2 looks like this:

O = C = O

doesn't it?

H2O is like
  O
H H

Now on a LONG chain of CH, like

   HHHHHH
HCCCCCCH
   HHHHHH

There's a lot of places to bring an O up to to get it close to being
 O
HH

Aren't there?

On
   HH
HCCH
   HH

There aren't so many now are there?

True you say there are no straight chain CH groups in normal fuels anymore,
but what you are saying kinda sorta doesn't make sense to me (fewer
available binding sites)... in the case of many double and triple bonds, in
HCs aren't those double and triple bonds pretty easy to "crack"?? It would
make sense that it would be EASIER to initiate the reaction in that
insatnce, but still we're talking about ease of initiating the reaction, not
the actual SPEED of the reaction.

I guess I've forgotten the chemistry behind CH combustion... I should go
look it up somewhere.

> Not overall, but in pump gas, it has a very high
> correlation.

Well you should tell that to Motor Trend... because in an article they had
written they replied to someone saying that there is no relationship between
octane and burn rate (and this was in reference to people putting higher
octane fuels in their cars at the pump when unnecessary).

> ...or look at the pressure curve during a burn, and
> analyze what came out the tailpipe.  How do you think
> people figured out all that nifty checmical science?

Good brains?

I guess the pressure curve would tell you how fast the reaction was going,
this is true.  But it would only be a relevant comparison if you used the
same everything (chamber, atomizer, etc etc) to compare the two combinations
of fuel... and since pump gas is such a bastardized mixture of chains
anyway, I guess I'm really analyzing the wrong stuff when I think about
octane, since it's a measure of a mixture of lots of lengths of chains, of
all sorts.

Oh well, I'm getting tired of chemistry, can we go back to... wait four gas
analyzers are chemistry too... I'll just step out my window now =)


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From steve.andersen at dol.net  Thu Dec 19 21:03:07 2002
From: steve.andersen at dol.net (Stephen Andersen)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:03:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

> Message: 9
> From: "Erik Jacobs" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:38:07 -0500
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> > Not overall, but in pump gas, it has a very high
> > correlation.
> 
> Well you should tell that to Motor Trend... because in an 
> article they had written they replied to someone saying that 
> there is no relationship between octane and burn rate (and 
> this was in reference to people putting higher octane fuels 
> in their cars at the pump when unnecessary).

I can't believe you actually just referred to MOTOR TREND on a list
this technically oriented!!!

I would not consider them to be the be-all end-all of automotive 
technical fact!!!

Steve



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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Thu Dec 19 21:08:10 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:08:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

> I can't believe you actually just referred to MOTOR TREND on a list
> this technically oriented!!!
>
> I would not consider them to be the be-all end-all of automotive
> technical fact!!!

No, I don't, that's why I doubted them because something in my brain told me
that octane HAS to have some relation to burn rate, because
knock/ping/detonation is typically the result of UNCONTROLLABLE BURN RATE...
or something..

so I had convinced myself they were wrong, then convinced myself maybe they
weren't, and now I'm convinced they were wrong again.

=)


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 19 21:10:31 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:10:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

--- Erik Jacobs  wrote:

*snip good chemistry*

Perhaps I have my molecular length thoughts backwards.
 I'll be the first to tell you my chemistry bites, and
that I've always been more interested in other aspects
of tuning than in exactly what makes a fuel behave the
way it does.  Somewhere in my brain I have a file card
for a petroleum engineer or two in case I ever needed
to know more on the subject, and so far they are
gathering dust in my brain. *hack, cough*

> I guess I've forgotten the chemistry behind CH
> combustion... I should go look it up somewhere.

Sounds like you know it better than me, but I don't
know it very well, and should perhaps shut my yap and
read what others of more experience have to say on the
subject.  ;)

>> Not overall, but in pump gas, it has a very high
>> correlation.

> Well you should tell that to Motor Trend... because
> in an article they had written they replied to
> someone saying that there is no relationship between
> octane and burn rate (and this was in reference to
> people putting higher octane fuels in their cars at
> the pump when unnecessary).

This was in answer to a letter?  I've found the "Q&A"
sections of hobbyist magazines to be rife with
technical errors over the years...  And would have a
lot more faith in an article based on them
intervieweing someone from a fuel manufacturer.

Regardless, I was told some time ago by a chemist for
a fuels and lubricants company (perhaps early to mid
90s) that, while it did not hold true outside of pump
gas, that WITH PUMP GAS ONLY, there was a pretty
direct correlation between octane number and burn
speed.  The reason for this has to do with the
requirements for stability and transportability with
pump gas, as well as keeping volatiles to a minimum. 
He did go on to say that with other non-pump-gas
fuels, it went right out the window; there was no
correlation at all (as someone noted with diesel,
which actually NEEDS detonation to burn in the engine
at all, AFAIK).

>> How do you think people figured out all that nifty
>> checmical science?

> Good brains?

Haha!  ;)  I'll tell you, it took me many years of
using science before it occurred to me to think of how
people came up with the science in the first place.

Basic science is easy; you observe a phenomenon, model
it, and see if your model is repeatable under other
conditions, and if it predicts other conditions with a
high level of accuracy.

But when it comes to things like "how do hydrocarbons
burn in a combustion chamber?", we're into some
territory where basics of chemistry and physics DO
work, but are near impossible to use alone to
determine outcomes.

In cases like that, people had to observe to build new
models.  They didn't just take basic chemistry, in
most cases, and push forward brute-force until they
got an answer.  They started with their basic chem,
and then took their observations on the other end, and
tried to make them meet in the middle, in most cases.

So, no, we didn't deduce what was going on in there
based on our past knowledge and then observe, and lo
and behold, we had the right answer!  ;)  At least not
AFAIK!  Observation was, and is, part of the equation,
which is why we get things like those nifty fiber
optic pressure sensors someone posted yesterday.  To
"look inside" a little more while the combustion event
is happening.

> I guess the pressure curve would tell you how fast
> the reaction was going, this is true.

Well, it'll tell you how much reaction is going on,
and how much energy it is releasing.  If you keep
things like the composition of the fuel as consistent
as possible, then you've eliminated a lot of
variables...

> But it would only be a relevant comparison if you
> used the same everything (chamber, atomizer, etc
> etc) to compare the two combinations of fuel...

Like, running them in the same engine with the same
fuel delivery mechanism?  ;)

> and since pump gas is such a bastardized mixture of
> chains anyway, I guess I'm really analyzing the
> wrong stuff when I think about octane, since it's a
> measure of a mixture of lots of lengths of chains,
of
> all sorts.

Well, yes and no...  Oftentimes people will observe a
correlation in effect when there is not an easy way to
deduce that observed effect from known concepts.  Then
the question becomes, "Is there a new concept here, or
just new understandings of old ones and how they fit
together?  And, for our use, does it matter, and is it
worth spending the energy to find out?"

> Oh well, I'm getting tired of chemistry, can we go
> back to... wait four gas analyzers are chemistry
> too... I'll just step out my window now =)

Haha!  ;)  There's chemistry, and there's chemistry,
old boy.  :D

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From Shannen at grolen.com  Thu Dec 19 21:20:13 2002
From: Shannen at grolen.com (Shannen at grolen.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:20:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

I'm away from the house.  The format of this message will look
bad.  You put that kind of heat to the cylinder heads for less than 12
seconds.  Do you think you would have the same good luck for a longer
period of time?
I>On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:01:39 -0500
DI>  "A6intruder"  wrote:
DI>> I never heard much
DI>>after reading that
DI>>article but the think supposedly ran great, like your
DI>>melt-down Eclipse but
DI>>longer.

DI>I should mention that I didn't melt anything. :)  The
DI>block was fine, the pistons were fine, so was the head.
DI> But I had 73psi compression in cylinder 4 due to the head
DI>gasket. :)

DI>Josh

DI>_______________________________________________
DI>Diy_efi mailing list
DI>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
DI>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

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From brian at dessent.net  Thu Dec 19 21:27:49 2002
From: brian at dessent.net (Brian Dessent)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:27:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Mike wrote:

> At 08:35 AM 12/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane actually
> >controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
> >inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.
> 
> Daniel,
> 
> You are wrong on all points, I take it you either havent been on this
> list for long or havent read anything about octane, what it is or how
> its measured...


Correct.  Octane ratings don't correspomd with flame speed or energy
content.  It has everything to do with what happens to the charge that
has not yet been reached by the flame front.  

I suggest the Gasoline FAQ for anyone interested, it's a tad outdated
(mid-90s) but it still has tons of info.  I'll include the relevant
excerpt from it below.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/

6.3  What fuel property does the Octane Rating measure?

The fuel property the octane ratings measure is the ability of the
unburnt
end gases to spontaneously ignite under the specified test conditions.
Within the chemical structure of the fuel is the ability to withstand  
pre-flame conditions without decomposing into species that will
autoignite 
before the flame-front arrives. Different reaction mechanisms, occurring
at
various stages of the pre-flame compression stroke, are responsible for
the 
undesirable, easily-autoignitable, end gases.

During the oxidation of a hydrocarbon fuel, the hydrogen atoms are
removed 
one at a time from the molecule by reactions with small radical species
(such as OH and HO2), and O and H atoms. The strength of carbon-hydrogen
bonds depends on what the carbon is connected to. Straight chain HCs
such as
normal heptane have secondary C-H bonds that are significantly weaker
than
the primary C-H bonds present in branched chain HCs like iso-octane
[21,22].


The octane rating of hydrocarbons is determined by the structure of the 
molecule, with long, straight hydrocarbon chains producing large amounts
of 
easily-autoignitable pre-flame decomposition species, while branched and 
aromatic hydrocarbons are more resistant. This also explains why the
octane
ratings of paraffins consistently decrease with carbon number. In real
life, 
the unburnt "end gases" ahead of the flame front encounter temperatures
up 
to about 700C due to compression and radiant and conductive heating, and 
commence a series of pre-flame reactions. These reactions occur at
different 
thermal stages, with the initial stage ( below 400C ) commencing with
the 
addition of molecular oxygen to alkyl radicals, followed by the internal 
transfer of hydrogen atoms within the new radical to form an
unsaturated, 
oxygen-containing species. These new species are susceptible to chain 
branching involving the HO2 radical during the intermediate temperature 
stage (400-600C), mainly through the production of OH radicals. Above
600C, 
the most important reaction that produces chain branching is the
reaction of 
one hydrogen atom radical with molecular oxygen to form O and OH
radicals.

The addition of additives such as alkyl lead and oxygenates can 
significantly affect the pre-flame reaction pathways. Antiknock
additives 
work by interfering at different points in the pre-flame reactions, with
the oxygenates retarding undesirable low temperature reactions, and the
alkyl lead compounds react in the intermediate temperature region to 
deactivate the major undesirable chain branching sequence [21,22]. 

The antiknock ability is related to the "autoignition temperature" of
the 
hydrocarbons. Antiknock ability is _not_ substantially related to:-
1. The energy content of fuel, this should be obvious, as oxygenates
have 
   lower energy contents, but high octanes.
2. The flame speed of the conventionally ignited mixture, this should be
   evident from the similarities of the two reference hydrocarbons. 
   Although flame speed does play a minor part, there are many other
factors 
   that are far more important. ( such as compression ratio,
stoichiometry,
   combustion chamber shape, chemical structure of the fuel, presence of 
   antiknock additives, number and position of spark plugs, turbulence
etc.)
   Flame speed does not correlate with octane.

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From true at ItsYourDomain.com  Thu Dec 19 21:30:21 2002
From: true at ItsYourDomain.com (Nick Starai)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:30:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 


I just got back from taking a tour of BP's fuel research facility
recently.

> > Not overall, but in pump gas, it has a very high > > correlation.
>
> Well you should tell that to Motor Trend... because in an article they had
> written they replied to someone saying that there is no relationship between
> octane and burn rate (and this was in reference to people putting higher
> octane fuels in their cars at the pump when unnecessary).

This is only relating to Pump gas - they didn't go over anything else.
It has been pretty much covered by the majority opinion on the subject
here, but basically what I got out of it was that a higher octane rating
does not mean that particular type of gas has a better energy density. As
mentioned a few times, octane is simply to help fight 'knock'. They said
if you car isn't knocking at all at 87 you shoulnd't be able to tell a
difference in performance between 87 and 93. They did mention the burn
rate is quicker on 87, but mentioned nothing of burn rate being different
depending on Octane.

Nick Starai


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From shurvinton at orange.net  Thu Dec 19 22:00:21 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:00:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Dahlgren" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


> Air temperature increases need less timing yes but it is
 >not air density related at all.

Hotter air is less dense though.


> Detonation is so far removed from tuning racing engines that if you get to
that
> point you have truly lost the rabbit so to speak. Peak power +- 0.5% is
quite a
> ways from detonation. There is also no rule I have ever heard about
keeping heat
> out of the cylinder heads. It is a heat engine. more heat more power.

Re: timing vs detonation on race engines, how come so many people get it
wrong? Can I also infer that OEM apps ( which run close to detonation) do
this because they are running leaner than they should?

On the temperature issue that has me confused. I had always thought that
cooler was more powerful and race cars (F1 in particular) only ran so hot
because the aero package demanded a limited rad area and air flow. Hotter
was more efficient. Still I am guessing on your engine dyno you can set any
coolant temp you want so can do real empirical measurements.

Can you also confirm on the cylinder head temp issue that you accepting that
way too hot will cause pre-ignition? I can understand why heating the heads
takes heat out the reaction, but after a point aren't you starting from a
hotter charge and so reducing the available heat increase from combustion?

Sorry for all these questions, but I just don't have the toys to test this
for myself :-)

Bill


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From shurvinton at orange.net  Thu Dec 19 22:01:18 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:01:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Shannen Durphey" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs


> Didn't you once say you specialize in asking questions?  This is a great
> one.

Why thank you

 We generally don't take into account any
> friction made at the contact patch between tires and rollers.

At least here in the UK this part is taken into account by the top dyno guys
who always do a coastdown to measure frictional losses. This also allows a
fairly good estimation of flywheel HP to be calculated.

The rest I need to consider it very carefully. Tying all the threads
together I may finally be seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks
for taking the time to help out a poor dumb guy on the other side of the
pond.

Bill


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From wingell at charter.net  Thu Dec 19 22:02:20 2002
From: wingell at charter.net (Joshua Wingell)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:02:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

On 19 Dec 2002 17:16:32 EDT
  Shannen at grolen.com wrote:
>I'm away from the house.  The format of this message will 
>look
>bad.  You put that kind of heat to the cylinder heads for 
>less than 12
>seconds.  Do you think you would have the same good luck 
>for a longer
>period of time?

Absolutely not.  Which is precisely why I let off the gas. 
:)

But I wouldn't mind getting some goodness out of it. ;)

Josh

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From Shannen at grolen.com  Thu Dec 19 22:04:50 2002
From: Shannen at grolen.com (Shannen at grolen.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:04:50 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

DI wasn't trying to say that decreased air density required decreased
timing.  I was saying that a hotter head requires less timing.
Since you haven't mentioned it, how does the gear based timing
 and/or fuel correction work?  I'm curious as to whether it's a fixed.
universal type of correction or something that can be varied with
time.
The point was you have to tune for the end of the straightaway, or for
the top of the long hill instead of the bottom if you have no way to
work out a correction for how long it takes to get up the hill.
If all you work with are engines with well designed chambers and good
flow characteristics, then there's no reason for you to have to deal
with the effects caused by poorly designed systems.  Not all the boys in
this area have the cash to buy the types of engines you're describing.
No rule about keeping heat out of heads?  Well, take a well designed
head, add some foolish sharp edge between the intake and exhaust valves,
and watch for detonation.  It'll happen if the head gets hot enough.
And if you're on the dyno, and it does happen, what options do you have
to fix the problem?  Now step down to the level of the guys that are
likely to show up at the local dyno shop.  They're gonna run what
they've brung.  Some guys have good heads on the car, some do not.  If
you're hired to make the car run as good as you can, do you stop tuning
if you see a set of bad heads?  I make the car run as good as I can. And
I tell the guy he's got a set of bad heads.  Such is the level of the
work around here.
I tune for the top of the hill bu doing as much of the WOT runs as I can
in high gear.  Sometimes with a light turbo car I'll drop the trans
gear.  On an inertial dyno a light turbo car will sometimes make more
boost than it would on the street, and you end up tuning in areas that
you don't generally see on the street.  It depends on whether the
owner's likely to be using the car for long runs at high speed or short
stoplight type blasts.
Shannen
I>I have no clue what the beginning of this was alluding to as I could not fol
DI>it. The part about decreased air density requiring less timing lost me. Are
DI>suggesting if the map sensor reads 20 kpa you would retard the timing from w
DI>it is set at at 40kpa?? Air temperature increases need less timing yes but i
DI>not air density related at all.

DI>If you have never worked with an ecu that has gear compensation then you don
DI>know how it works only how you would do it. Do yourself a favor. Next time y
DI>are on the inertia dyno make a pull in first gear and one in high gear and d
DI>log  the O2 readings for both runs. Show me the part where they are the same
DI>Detonation is so far removed from tuning racing engines that if you get to t
DI>point you have truly lost the rabbit so to speak. Peak power +- 0.5% is quit
DI>ways from detonation. There is also no rule I have ever heard about keeping
DI>out of the cylinder heads. It is a heat engine. more heat more power. If you
DI>keep the heads cool you lose power warming them up. Make a pull at 130 degre
DI>water temp and one at 190... see for yourself. same goes for oil temp.. Keep
DI>the engine cool only makes you more comfortable not the engine. If you are
DI>keeping the heads cool to stay out of detonation then you are running too mu



DI>Dave

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 19 22:23:47 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:23:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

> Re: timing vs detonation on race engines, how come
> so many people get it wrong?

At higher rpms, you need more advance to get the
pressure peak at the right place in the power stroke
(I gather we're all pretty clear on that one).  A lot
of people see advance over a stock setup (which is
going to be geared for emissions as well as power)
getting them additional power, so a lot of people just
pour on the advance, figuring "more = better".

> Can I also infer that OEM apps ( which run close to
> detonation) do this because they are running leaner
> than they should?

Do what?  Retard timing?  In some cases.  That's
usually how a detonation sensor setup works; after
detecting knock, it retards the timing.

> On the temperature issue that has me confused. I had
> always thought that cooler was more powerful

As someone mentioned a few days ago, you want the
biggest CHANGE in temperatures.  Cool intake, hot
exhaust.

> and race cars (F1 in particular) only ran so hot
> because the aero package demanded a limited rad area
> and air flow. Hotter was more efficient.

With the engine components themselves, you are limited
by how much heat the materials involved can withstand
before weakening.  With highly-stressed engine parts
that are built to JUST withstand the stresses of a
race and be as light as possible, managing temperature
is CRITICAL.  So there are conflicting needs; the need
to keep the engine structurally sound, and the
"desire" to have it as hot as possible in the
combustion chamber.

> Can you also confirm on the cylinder head temp issue
> that you accepting that way too hot will cause pre-
> ignition?

That depends.  Pre-ignition, as opposed to detonation,
needs a "hot spot" to light it off.  A hemi head
combustion chamber, as an example, with no carbon
buildup, would be hard to make "pre-ignite", since
there would be good paths for heat to flow out of the
combustion chamber and into coolant passages.  Once
with a lot of sharp corners would be more likely, and
one with cabron build-up, especially in little chunks
where heat could concentrate and cause it to "glow",
would be the most likely.

> I can understand why heating the heads takes heat
> out the reaction, but after a point aren't you
> starting from a hotter charge and so reducing the
> available heat increase from combustion?

It depends largely on how much charge volume is lost
out the intake valve.  Any heating that happens to the
charge after it enters (and stays in) the combustion
chamber is part of the engine's power development,
although depending on where it happens in a
four-stroke engine, this could work AGAINST power
output from the vehicle.


=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Thu Dec 19 22:27:29 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:27:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EPROM Maps
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3123228673_277018
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Anyone have a collection (or any) EPROM Maps for Japanese Vehicles?
I=B9m just looking for vases to tune from.

Cheers
--=20
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


--B_3123228673_277018
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable



EPROM Maps


Anyone have a collection (or any) EPROM Maps for Japan=
ese Vehicles?

I’m just looking for vases to tune from.



Cheers

-- 

Matt Porritt

RC Race Cars and Supplies

ICQ #22776813






--B_3123228673_277018--


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From evotech at b-online.gr  Thu Dec 19 22:28:05 2002
From: evotech at b-online.gr (Ioannis Andrianakis)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:28:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hexfile Map Structures
Message-ID: 

Bosch maps are not always in DAMOs format. There is usually a clear
distinction between the program code area and the data-map area. What you
see as program code between maps is usually smaller maps, even 1 byte maps.
There is no map marker value at the beginning of each map and maps are not
stored one after the other. You must find them by looks and testing. The
more experience you gain the easier it will be.
Regards,
John Andrianakis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Pelnar" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Hexfile Map Structures


> I must have missed it somewhere. What does Bosch use for a processor?
>
> Gerald Pelnar WD0FYF
> McPherson, KS
> wd0fyf at cox.net
> http://members.cox.net/wd0fyf/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stephan Helbig 
> To: Efi Mailingliste 
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:56 AM
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Hexfile Map Structures
>
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Maybe someone can give me a little hint on that:
> > I'm working on several Bosch ECU hexfiles and already found out several
> > maps which are said to have a DAMOS structure: number of x-markers,
> > number of y-markers; x-values, y-values; map values (z-values). With
> > this I can draw a 3-dimensional graph.
> > Anyway this only works when I can clearly differentiate between
> > programmed and non-programmed (FFFFF) sections. Many Bosch files however
> > seem to have the maps within other programmed sections so one cannot
> > start from the beginning of them. There must be a map-marker value at
> > the beginning of each map (as far as I'm correct here) and also the
> > structure seems to be different.
> > Does anyone know about different structures in hexfiles and how they
> > work if you want to find and define distinct maps?
> >
> > Any help would be much appreciated.
> >
> > Stephan
> >
> >
> > --
> > My Homepage:
> > http://www.e-ger-translation.de
> > http://people.freenet.de/sthl/
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 19 22:39:09 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:39:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] :dynos and tuning
Message-ID: 

--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

> However at low throttle openings many engines are
> very tolerant of huge variations in AFR, so
> you 'MIGHT' want to tune the 8HP point for 15%
> throttle. This way you get reduced pumping losses
> therefore better gas mileage and possibly more
> drivability. This is a 'street' thing as race
> drivers want power and throttle response.

Wouldn't you get basically the same effect by changing
gears so that you had an engine speed where your
desired throttle opening corresponded to the power
output you desired?

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From shurvinton at orange.net  Thu Dec 19 22:40:28 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:40:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] :dynos and tuning
Message-ID: 

OK I think we are getting to the crux of our differing opinions.

If you are on a dyno you (i think) crack the throttle a bit say 10% at RPMX
and tune spark and fuel for the max power you can get at that opening.
However at low throttle openings many engines are very tolerant of huge
variations in AFR, so you 'MIGHT' want to tune the 8HP point for 15%
throttle. This way you get reduced pumping losses therefore better gas
mileage and possibly more drivability. This is a 'street' thing as race
drivers want power and throttle response.

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 8:13 PM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs


> --- bill.shurvinton at nokia.com wrote:
>

> > Tuning the whole map on a dyno for best power or
> > best BSFC is obvious, but the blend between those
> > would appear, at least to my inexperienced eyes, to
> > be a challenge.
>
> If you were so inclined, it seems to be simple enough
> to average the fuel numbers on your map.  I'm not sure
> what goial would be achieved by picking a particular
> value between the two.



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From shurvinton at orange.net  Thu Dec 19 22:40:37 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:40:37 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Is this 'Shannon load' or other load? If I goose the throttle in first I can
accelerate at around 1g on a dry road. It's not a static case, but it
certainly is load and I would expect every HP I have paid for to be
torturing my tyres.

 OK logging that burst wouldn't enable you to tune from it, but on an eddy
current dyno where you can put full load on what would you do to maximise
lower gear acceleration?

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 8:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs


> --- bill.shurvinton at nokia.com wrote:
>
> > I can't grasp why terminal velocity tune loses power
> > in lower gears
>
> Same reason an inertial dyno is not a very good tuning
> tool in many respects; when tuning in low gears, you
> are only loading the engine with the inertia of the
> vehicle.  Which means you are never placing it under a
> full load for tuning purposes, unless you're climbing
> a REALLY steep hill at the time.  Higher gear, longer
> lever arm, more loading of the engine, a more accurate map.



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From Shannen at grolen.com  Thu Dec 19 22:41:08 2002
From: Shannen at grolen.com (Shannen at grolen.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:41:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 
Message-ID: 

How would you isolate the friction in the contact patch?  Without a way
to attach a similar mass to the wheels without the friction of the
contact patch...  And additionally, since the tire is normally on the
road, it's not unreasonable to say that rear wheel hp is the net sum
after deducting the loss from the friction of the tire on the road.
Yes, we do coastdown runs also.  I can measure inertial and friction
losses to the front of the trans on a manual, or to the front of the
crank.  With an auto trans things are a little different.  I can only
measure to the last connected point within the trans, in neutral.  Some
auto trans like the THM400 don't overrun on coastdown, so I can measure
losses to the front of th crank with that trans.  Newer trans will
overrun on coasting, so I can measure some of the inertial loss of the
trans versus engine.  How much of the trans I get depends on where in
the geartrain the overrun clutch is located.
Shannen

DI>----- Original Message -----
DI>From: "Shannen Durphey" 
DI>To: 
DI>Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:52 PM
DI>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs


DI>> Didn't you once say you specialize in asking questions?  This is a great
DI>> one.

DI>Why thank you

DI> We generally don't take into account any
DI>> friction made at the contact patch between tires and rollers.

DI>At least here in the UK this part is taken into account by the top dyno guys
DI>who always do a coastdown to measure frictional losses. This also allows a
DI>fairly good estimation of flywheel HP to be calculated.

DI>The rest I need to consider it very carefully. Tying all the threads
DI>together I may finally be seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks
DI>for taking the time to help out a poor dumb guy on the other side of the
DI>pond.

DI>Bill


DI>_______________________________________________
DI>Diy_efi mailing list
DI>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
DI>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 19 22:56:40 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:56:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

> Is this 'Shannon load' or other load?

Haha!  ;)

When I talk of load, I am talking of how much power is
absorbed by the driven device, and how quickly.

> If I goose the throttle in first I can accelerate at
> around 1g on a dry road. It's not a static case, but
> it certainly is load and I would expect every HP I
> have paid for to be torturing my tyres.

It seems to be, from my experience, much easier to
measure changes steady-state than delta.  Which is why
tuning problems are more obvious in higher gears, in
my experience; with more drag loading the car, you're
dealing with a characterstic instead of a transient,
if you follow me.

> OK logging that burst wouldn't enable you to tune
> from it, but on an eddy current dyno where you can
> put full load on what would you do to maximise
> lower gear acceleration?

Regardless of how the power ends up being distributed
(friction, acceleration, wind drag), best power is
best power.  If you tuned every load/speed cell in the
map for best power, you might not get the very best
possible gas milleage, but you should have optimized
the power output everywhere, and thus see it in
improved times down the road in lower gears as well as
higher ones.


=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From shurvinton at orange.net  Thu Dec 19 22:59:25 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:59:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Wade" 
>
> > Can I also infer that OEM apps ( which run close to
> > detonation) do this because they are running leaner
> > than they should?
>
> Do what?  Retard timing?  In some cases.  That's
> usually how a detonation sensor setup works; after
> detecting knock, it retards the timing.

No: dave's point: Best power is way off detonation in a race engine. My
question, why does a modern road car gain 10HP when run on high octane (real
test, think it was a BMW) when all it has to go on is the knock sensor.
Inference: it must be running close to knock all the time.


> > and race cars (F1 in particular) only ran so hot
> > because the aero package demanded a limited rad area
> > and air flow. Hotter was more efficient.
>
> With the engine components themselves, you are limited
> by how much heat the materials involved can withstand
> before weakening.  With highly-stressed engine parts
> that are built to JUST withstand the stresses of a
> race and be as light as possible, managing temperature
> is CRITICAL.  So there are conflicting needs; the need
> to keep the engine structurally sound, and the
> "desire" to have it as hot as possible in the
> combustion chamber.

 I quoted F1 because it is an extreme case. The engines are run at
riduculous coolant temps and revs and until recently were billet unobtanium.
I like beryllium in space apps, but not sure I want it in my car. However
the coolant temp in this case is due to not being able to get the heat out,
not because the engine liked the heat.


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From patc at opposition.tv  Thu Dec 19 23:05:16 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:05:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Dave wrote


I am in the USA in Connecticut..
Unfortunately the map is the property of the guy I tuned the engine for..
His
money spent not mine to give away. I can forward your e-mail to him though
and
let him reply directly. Sorry if it was for my car you could have it. The
engine
has TWM throttle bodies and the SCCA required restrictors so I am not sure
how
much there would be to learn anyway. I will comment that this was one of the
most efficient engines I have worked on in along while. The BSFC was
routinely
in 0.38 to 0.36 range. I thought the dyno was broken to be honest but we
checked
the fuel flow meters and they are correct and the correction factors were
all
right as well. The engine seems to like A/F ratios around 13.8 at WOT and
does
not need a lot of timing as well around 32 to 34 at WOT with race fuel ,
C-12
and 13.5/1 CR. You can add more timing but it makes no more power and it did
not
improve response either. The same with the fuel you can fatten it up a bit
and
the power goes down.
Dave

Rod Hiorns wrote:
>
> Hi Dave,
> I hope you won't mind me asking. A buddy & I are just starting tuning on
> our miatas and wonder if you have suitable maps I can compare to see how
> we're doing. My buddy has a 1.6 at up to 12 psi using a MoTeC, and I
> have a lowly stock 1.8, with a MiataLink, shortly to be turbo'd to 10 psi.
> I know all engines are unique, but any info would be really helpful.
> We're in London, UK. Are you anywhere near?
> Cheers,
> Rod


I can back up what Dave said about timing on these things. They are quite
amazing in terms of efficiency and detonation resistance. The Mazda motor
that I referred to in a post from a couple of days ago as being detonation
proof was a 1.6L Miata engine and it is actually the test mule at MoTeC
right here in Melbourne. I have seen it run 40plus deg timing on pump fuel
without pre igniting. As Dave said, it just loses power. I can only put it
down to an excellent cylinder head design as the main factor.

As a consequence of this, they do like to run on the lean side and I
wouldn't bother with anymore than 32deg on any Miata. What MoTeC does your
mate have? If it has the internal logging and lambda upgrades, these can be
an easy way to tune on the run so to speak.

I have a great deal of experience with all MoTeC systems (V8Supercar to F3)
and would be happy to look at your map for you if you would like a second
set of eyes.


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From legend88 at telusplanet.net  Thu Dec 19 23:21:03 2002
From: legend88 at telusplanet.net (legend88 at telusplanet.net)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:21:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Please unsbscribe my email address
Message-ID: 

Legend88 at telusplanet.net
Thanks


Quoting diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org:

> Send Diy_efi mailing list submissions to
> 	diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Diy_efi digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Timing Advance Curve? (Stephen Andersen)
>    2. Re: Timing Advance Curve? (Erik Jacobs)
>    3. Re: Timing Advance Curve? (Adam Wade)
>    4. Re: RE: Timing and dyno pulls (Shannen at grolen.com)
>    5. Re: Timing Advance Curve? (Brian Dessent)
>    6. Re: Timing Advance Curve? (Nick Starai)
>    7. Re: RE: Timing and dyno pulls (William Shurvinton)
>    8. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (William Shurvinton)
>    9. Re: RE: Timing and dyno pulls (Joshua Wingell)
>   10. Re: RE: Timing and dyno pulls (Shannen at grolen.com)
>   11. Re: RE: Timing and dyno pulls (Adam Wade)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> From: "Stephen Andersen" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:57:47 -0500
> Organization: EKM Engineering, Inc.
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> > Message: 9
> > From: "Erik Jacobs" 
> > To: 
> > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
> > Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:38:07 -0500
> > Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > 
> > > Not overall, but in pump gas, it has a very high
> > > correlation.
> > 
> > Well you should tell that to Motor Trend... because in an 
> > article they had written they replied to someone saying that 
> > there is no relationship between octane and burn rate (and 
> > this was in reference to people putting higher octane fuels 
> > in their cars at the pump when unnecessary).
> 
> I can't believe you actually just referred to MOTOR TREND on a list
> this technically oriented!!!
> 
> I would not consider them to be the be-all end-all of automotive 
> technical fact!!!
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> From: "Erik Jacobs" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 16:06:57 -0500
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> > I can't believe you actually just referred to MOTOR TREND on a list
> > this technically oriented!!!
> >
> > I would not consider them to be the be-all end-all of automotive
> > technical fact!!!
> 
> No, I don't, that's why I doubted them because something in my brain told
> me
> that octane HAS to have some relation to burn rate, because
> knock/ping/detonation is typically the result of UNCONTROLLABLE BURN
> RATE...
> or something..
> 
> so I had convinced myself they were wrong, then convinced myself maybe they
> weren't, and now I'm convinced they were wrong again.
> 
> =)
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:13:09 -0800 (PST)
> From: Adam Wade 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> --- Erik Jacobs  wrote:
> 
> *snip good chemistry*
> 
> Perhaps I have my molecular length thoughts backwards.
>  I'll be the first to tell you my chemistry bites, and
> that I've always been more interested in other aspects
> of tuning than in exactly what makes a fuel behave the
> way it does.  Somewhere in my brain I have a file card
> for a petroleum engineer or two in case I ever needed
> to know more on the subject, and so far they are
> gathering dust in my brain. *hack, cough*
> 
> > I guess I've forgotten the chemistry behind CH
> > combustion... I should go look it up somewhere.
> 
> Sounds like you know it better than me, but I don't
> know it very well, and should perhaps shut my yap and
> read what others of more experience have to say on the
> subject.  ;)
> 
> >> Not overall, but in pump gas, it has a very high
> >> correlation.
> 
> > Well you should tell that to Motor Trend... because
> > in an article they had written they replied to
> > someone saying that there is no relationship between
> > octane and burn rate (and this was in reference to
> > people putting higher octane fuels in their cars at
> > the pump when unnecessary).
> 
> This was in answer to a letter?  I've found the "Q&A"
> sections of hobbyist magazines to be rife with
> technical errors over the years...  And would have a
> lot more faith in an article based on them
> intervieweing someone from a fuel manufacturer.
> 
> Regardless, I was told some time ago by a chemist for
> a fuels and lubricants company (perhaps early to mid
> 90s) that, while it did not hold true outside of pump
> gas, that WITH PUMP GAS ONLY, there was a pretty
> direct correlation between octane number and burn
> speed.  The reason for this has to do with the
> requirements for stability and transportability with
> pump gas, as well as keeping volatiles to a minimum. 
> He did go on to say that with other non-pump-gas
> fuels, it went right out the window; there was no
> correlation at all (as someone noted with diesel,
> which actually NEEDS detonation to burn in the engine
> at all, AFAIK).
> 
> >> How do you think people figured out all that nifty
> >> checmical science?
> 
> > Good brains?
> 
> Haha!  ;)  I'll tell you, it took me many years of
> using science before it occurred to me to think of how
> people came up with the science in the first place.
> 
> Basic science is easy; you observe a phenomenon, model
> it, and see if your model is repeatable under other
> conditions, and if it predicts other conditions with a
> high level of accuracy.
> 
> But when it comes to things like "how do hydrocarbons
> burn in a combustion chamber?", we're into some
> territory where basics of chemistry and physics DO
> work, but are near impossible to use alone to
> determine outcomes.
> 
> In cases like that, people had to observe to build new
> models.  They didn't just take basic chemistry, in
> most cases, and push forward brute-force until they
> got an answer.  They started with their basic chem,
> and then took their observations on the other end, and
> tried to make them meet in the middle, in most cases.
> 
> So, no, we didn't deduce what was going on in there
> based on our past knowledge and then observe, and lo
> and behold, we had the right answer!  ;)  At least not
> AFAIK!  Observation was, and is, part of the equation,
> which is why we get things like those nifty fiber
> optic pressure sensors someone posted yesterday.  To
> "look inside" a little more while the combustion event
> is happening.
> 
> > I guess the pressure curve would tell you how fast
> > the reaction was going, this is true.
> 
> Well, it'll tell you how much reaction is going on,
> and how much energy it is releasing.  If you keep
> things like the composition of the fuel as consistent
> as possible, then you've eliminated a lot of
> variables...
> 
> > But it would only be a relevant comparison if you
> > used the same everything (chamber, atomizer, etc
> > etc) to compare the two combinations of fuel...
> 
> Like, running them in the same engine with the same
> fuel delivery mechanism?  ;)
> 
> > and since pump gas is such a bastardized mixture of
> > chains anyway, I guess I'm really analyzing the
> > wrong stuff when I think about octane, since it's a
> > measure of a mixture of lots of lengths of chains,
> of
> > all sorts.
> 
> Well, yes and no...  Oftentimes people will observe a
> correlation in effect when there is not an easy way to
> deduce that observed effect from known concepts.  Then
> the question becomes, "Is there a new concept here, or
> just new understandings of old ones and how they fit
> together?  And, for our use, does it matter, and is it
> worth spending the energy to find out?"
> 
> > Oh well, I'm getting tired of chemistry, can we go
> > back to... wait four gas analyzers are chemistry
> > too... I'll just step out my window now =)
> 
> Haha!  ;)  There's chemistry, and there's chemistry,
> old boy.  :D
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 4
> From: Shannen at grolen.com
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Date: 19 Dec 2002 17:16:32 EDT
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> I'm away from the house.  The format of this message will look
> bad.  You put that kind of heat to the cylinder heads for less than 12
> seconds.  Do you think you would have the same good luck for a longer
> period of time?
> I>On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:01:39 -0500
> DI>  "A6intruder"  wrote:
> DI>> I never heard much
> DI>>after reading that
> DI>>article but the think supposedly ran great, like your
> DI>>melt-down Eclipse but
> DI>>longer.
> 
> DI>I should mention that I didn't melt anything. :)  The
> DI>block was fine, the pistons were fine, so was the head.
> DI> But I had 73psi compression in cylinder 4 due to the head
> DI>gasket. :)
> 
> DI>Josh
> 
> DI>_______________________________________________
> DI>Diy_efi mailing list
> DI>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> DI>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:29:55 -0800
> From: Brian Dessent 
> Organization: My own little world...
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> Mike wrote:
> 
> > At 08:35 AM 12/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Octane has everything to do with the speed of burn.  Higher octane
> actually
> > >controls ping by slowing down the burn.  This is why a very low HP/cubic
> > >inch engine doesn't necessarily gain power with higher octane.
> > 
> > Daniel,
> > 
> > You are wrong on all points, I take it you either havent been on this
> > list for long or havent read anything about octane, what it is or how
> > its measured...
> 
> 
> Correct.  Octane ratings don't correspomd with flame speed or energy
> content.  It has everything to do with what happens to the charge that
> has not yet been reached by the flame front.  
> 
> I suggest the Gasoline FAQ for anyone interested, it's a tad outdated
> (mid-90s) but it still has tons of info.  I'll include the relevant
> excerpt from it below.
> 
> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
> 
> 6.3  What fuel property does the Octane Rating measure?
> 
> The fuel property the octane ratings measure is the ability of the
> unburnt
> end gases to spontaneously ignite under the specified test conditions.
> Within the chemical structure of the fuel is the ability to withstand  
> pre-flame conditions without decomposing into species that will
> autoignite 
> before the flame-front arrives. Different reaction mechanisms, occurring
> at
> various stages of the pre-flame compression stroke, are responsible for
> the 
> undesirable, easily-autoignitable, end gases.
> 
> During the oxidation of a hydrocarbon fuel, the hydrogen atoms are
> removed 
> one at a time from the molecule by reactions with small radical species
> (such as OH and HO2), and O and H atoms. The strength of carbon-hydrogen
> bonds depends on what the carbon is connected to. Straight chain HCs
> such as
> normal heptane have secondary C-H bonds that are significantly weaker
> than
> the primary C-H bonds present in branched chain HCs like iso-octane
> [21,22].
> 
> 
> The octane rating of hydrocarbons is determined by the structure of the 
> molecule, with long, straight hydrocarbon chains producing large amounts
> of 
> easily-autoignitable pre-flame decomposition species, while branched and 
> aromatic hydrocarbons are more resistant. This also explains why the
> octane
> ratings of paraffins consistently decrease with carbon number. In real
> life, 
> the unburnt "end gases" ahead of the flame front encounter temperatures
> up 
> to about 700C due to compression and radiant and conductive heating, and 
> commence a series of pre-flame reactions. These reactions occur at
> different 
> thermal stages, with the initial stage ( below 400C ) commencing with
> the 
> addition of molecular oxygen to alkyl radicals, followed by the internal 
> transfer of hydrogen atoms within the new radical to form an
> unsaturated, 
> oxygen-containing species. These new species are susceptible to chain 
> branching involving the HO2 radical during the intermediate temperature 
> stage (400-600C), mainly through the production of OH radicals. Above
> 600C, 
> the most important reaction that produces chain branching is the
> reaction of 
> one hydrogen atom radical with molecular oxygen to form O and OH
> radicals.
> 
> The addition of additives such as alkyl lead and oxygenates can 
> significantly affect the pre-flame reaction pathways. Antiknock
> additives 
> work by interfering at different points in the pre-flame reactions, with
> the oxygenates retarding undesirable low temperature reactions, and the
> alkyl lead compounds react in the intermediate temperature region to 
> deactivate the major undesirable chain branching sequence [21,22]. 
> 
> The antiknock ability is related to the "autoignition temperature" of
> the 
> hydrocarbons. Antiknock ability is _not_ substantially related to:-
> 1. The energy content of fuel, this should be obvious, as oxygenates
> have 
>    lower energy contents, but high octanes.
> 2. The flame speed of the conventionally ignited mixture, this should be
>    evident from the similarities of the two reference hydrocarbons. 
>    Although flame speed does play a minor part, there are many other
> factors 
>    that are far more important. ( such as compression ratio,
> stoichiometry,
>    combustion chamber shape, chemical structure of the fuel, presence of 
>    antiknock additives, number and position of spark plugs, turbulence
> etc.)
>    Flame speed does not correlate with octane.
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:31:33 -0600 (CST)
> From: Nick Starai 
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> 
> I just got back from taking a tour of BP's fuel research facility
> recently.
> 
> > > Not overall, but in pump gas, it has a very high > > correlation.
> >
> > Well you should tell that to Motor Trend... because in an article they
> had
> > written they replied to someone saying that there is no relationship
> between
> > octane and burn rate (and this was in reference to people putting higher
> > octane fuels in their cars at the pump when unnecessary).
> 
> This is only relating to Pump gas - they didn't go over anything else.
> It has been pretty much covered by the majority opinion on the subject
> here, but basically what I got out of it was that a higher octane rating
> does not mean that particular type of gas has a better energy density. As
> mentioned a few times, octane is simply to help fight 'knock'. They said
> if you car isn't knocking at all at 87 you shoulnd't be able to tell a
> difference in performance between 87 and 93. They did mention the burn
> rate is quicker on 87, but mentioned nothing of burn rate being different
> depending on Octane.
> 
> Nick Starai
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 7
> From: "William Shurvinton" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:40:26 -0000
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Dahlgren" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
> 
> 
> > Air temperature increases need less timing yes but it is
>  >not air density related at all.
> 
> Hotter air is less dense though.
> 
> 
> > Detonation is so far removed from tuning racing engines that if you get
> to
> that
> > point you have truly lost the rabbit so to speak. Peak power +- 0.5% is
> quite a
> > ways from detonation. There is also no rule I have ever heard about
> keeping heat
> > out of the cylinder heads. It is a heat engine. more heat more power.
> 
> Re: timing vs detonation on race engines, how come so many people get it
> wrong? Can I also infer that OEM apps ( which run close to detonation) do
> this because they are running leaner than they should?
> 
> On the temperature issue that has me confused. I had always thought that
> cooler was more powerful and race cars (F1 in particular) only ran so hot
> because the aero package demanded a limited rad area and air flow. Hotter
> was more efficient. Still I am guessing on your engine dyno you can set any
> coolant temp you want so can do real empirical measurements.
> 
> Can you also confirm on the cylinder head temp issue that you accepting
> that
> way too hot will cause pre-ignition? I can understand why heating the heads
> takes heat out the reaction, but after a point aren't you starting from a
> hotter charge and so reducing the available heat increase from combustion?
> 
> Sorry for all these questions, but I just don't have the toys to test this
> for myself :-)
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 8
> From: "William Shurvinton" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:17:08 -0000
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shannen Durphey" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
> 
> 
> > Didn't you once say you specialize in asking questions?  This is a great
> > one.
> 
> Why thank you
> 
>  We generally don't take into account any
> > friction made at the contact patch between tires and rollers.
> 
> At least here in the UK this part is taken into account by the top dyno
> guys
> who always do a coastdown to measure frictional losses. This also allows a
> fairly good estimation of flywheel HP to be calculated.
> 
> The rest I need to consider it very carefully. Tying all the threads
> together I may finally be seeing some light at the end of the tunnel.
> Thanks
> for taking the time to help out a poor dumb guy on the other side of the
> pond.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 9
> From: "Joshua Wingell" 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 17:04:49 -0500
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> On 19 Dec 2002 17:16:32 EDT
>   Shannen at grolen.com wrote:
> >I'm away from the house.  The format of this message will 
> >look
> >bad.  You put that kind of heat to the cylinder heads for 
> >less than 12
> >seconds.  Do you think you would have the same good luck 
> >for a longer
> >period of time?
> 
> Absolutely not.  Which is precisely why I let off the gas. 
> :)
> 
> But I wouldn't mind getting some goodness out of it. ;)
> 
> Josh
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 10
> From: Shannen at grolen.com
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Date: 19 Dec 2002 18:13:38 EDT
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> DI wasn't trying to say that decreased air density required decreased
> timing.  I was saying that a hotter head requires less timing.
> Since you haven't mentioned it, how does the gear based timing
>  and/or fuel correction work?  I'm curious as to whether it's a fixed.
> universal type of correction or something that can be varied with
> time.
> The point was you have to tune for the end of the straightaway, or for
> the top of the long hill instead of the bottom if you have no way to
> work out a correction for how long it takes to get up the hill.
> If all you work with are engines with well designed chambers and good
> flow characteristics, then there's no reason for you to have to deal
> with the effects caused by poorly designed systems.  Not all the boys in
> this area have the cash to buy the types of engines you're describing.
> No rule about keeping heat out of heads?  Well, take a well designed
> head, add some foolish sharp edge between the intake and exhaust valves,
> and watch for detonation.  It'll happen if the head gets hot enough.
> And if you're on the dyno, and it does happen, what options do you have
> to fix the problem?  Now step down to the level of the guys that are
> likely to show up at the local dyno shop.  They're gonna run what
> they've brung.  Some guys have good heads on the car, some do not.  If
> you're hired to make the car run as good as you can, do you stop tuning
> if you see a set of bad heads?  I make the car run as good as I can. And
> I tell the guy he's got a set of bad heads.  Such is the level of the
> work around here.
> I tune for the top of the hill bu doing as much of the WOT runs as I can
> in high gear.  Sometimes with a light turbo car I'll drop the trans
> gear.  On an inertial dyno a light turbo car will sometimes make more
> boost than it would on the street, and you end up tuning in areas that
> you don't generally see on the street.  It depends on whether the
> owner's likely to be using the car for long runs at high speed or short
> stoplight type blasts.
> Shannen
> I>I have no clue what the beginning of this was alluding to as I could not
> fol
> DI>it. The part about decreased air density requiring less timing lost me.
> Are
> DI>suggesting if the map sensor reads 20 kpa you would retard the timing from
> w
> DI>it is set at at 40kpa?? Air temperature increases need less timing yes but
> i
> DI>not air density related at all.
> 
> DI>If you have never worked with an ecu that has gear compensation then you
> don
> DI>know how it works only how you would do it. Do yourself a favor. Next time
> y
> DI>are on the inertia dyno make a pull in first gear and one in high gear and
> d
> DI>log  the O2 readings for both runs. Show me the part where they are the
> same
> DI>Detonation is so far removed from tuning racing engines that if you get to
> t
> DI>point you have truly lost the rabbit so to speak. Peak power +- 0.5% is
> quit
> DI>ways from detonation. There is also no rule I have ever heard about
> keeping
> DI>out of the cylinder heads. It is a heat engine. more heat more power. If
> you
> DI>keep the heads cool you lose power warming them up. Make a pull at 130
> degre
> DI>water temp and one at 190... see for yourself. same goes for oil temp..
> Keep
> DI>the engine cool only makes you more comfortable not the engine. If you
> are
> DI>keeping the heads cool to stay out of detonation then you are running too
> mu
> 
> 
> 
> DI>Dave
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:24:56 -0800 (PST)
> From: Adam Wade 
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> --- William Shurvinton  wrote:
> 
> > Re: timing vs detonation on race engines, how come
> > so many people get it wrong?
> 
> At higher rpms, you need more advance to get the
> pressure peak at the right place in the power stroke
> (I gather we're all pretty clear on that one).  A lot
> of people see advance over a stock setup (which is
> going to be geared for emissions as well as power)
> getting them additional power, so a lot of people just
> pour on the advance, figuring "more = better".
> 
> > Can I also infer that OEM apps ( which run close to
> > detonation) do this because they are running leaner
> > than they should?
> 
> Do what?  Retard timing?  In some cases.  That's
> usually how a detonation sensor setup works; after
> detecting knock, it retards the timing.
> 
> > On the temperature issue that has me confused. I had
> > always thought that cooler was more powerful
> 
> As someone mentioned a few days ago, you want the
> biggest CHANGE in temperatures.  Cool intake, hot
> exhaust.
> 
> > and race cars (F1 in particular) only ran so hot
> > because the aero package demanded a limited rad area
> > and air flow. Hotter was more efficient.
> 
> With the engine components themselves, you are limited
> by how much heat the materials involved can withstand
> before weakening.  With highly-stressed engine parts
> that are built to JUST withstand the stresses of a
> race and be as light as possible, managing temperature
> is CRITICAL.  So there are conflicting needs; the need
> to keep the engine structurally sound, and the
> "desire" to have it as hot as possible in the
> combustion chamber.
> 
> > Can you also confirm on the cylinder head temp issue
> > that you accepting that way too hot will cause pre-
> > ignition?
> 
> That depends.  Pre-ignition, as opposed to detonation,
> needs a "hot spot" to light it off.  A hemi head
> combustion chamber, as an example, with no carbon
> buildup, would be hard to make "pre-ignite", since
> there would be good paths for heat to flow out of the
> combustion chamber and into coolant passages.  Once
> with a lot of sharp corners would be more likely, and
> one with cabron build-up, especially in little chunks
> where heat could concentrate and cause it to "glow",
> would be the most likely.
> 
> > I can understand why heating the heads takes heat
> > out the reaction, but after a point aren't you
> > starting from a hotter charge and so reducing the
> > available heat increase from combustion?
> 
> It depends largely on how much charge volume is lost
> out the intake valve.  Any heating that happens to the
> charge after it enters (and stays in) the combustion
> chamber is part of the engine's power development,
> although depending on where it happens in a
> four-stroke engine, this could work AGAINST power
> output from the vehicle.
> 
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
> End of Diy_efi Digest
> 





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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Thu Dec 19 23:41:28 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:41:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 10:56:01PM -0000, William Shurvinton wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Wade" 
> >
> > > Can I also infer that OEM apps ( which run close to
> > > detonation) do this because they are running leaner
> > > than they should?

> > Do what?  Retard timing?  In some cases.  That's
> > usually how a detonation sensor setup works; after
> > detecting knock, it retards the timing.

> No: dave's point: Best power is way off detonation in a race engine. My
> question, why does a modern road car gain 10HP when run on high octane (real
> test, think it was a BMW) when all it has to go on is the knock sensor.
> Inference: it must be running close to knock all the time.

Correct. But it's not just the fuel.

And ambient conditions such as humidity can have dramatic effects on
low-speed and mid-range torque. Something like 4g of water per kg or
air being equivalent to one octane point, IIRC.

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
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From shurvinton at orange.net  Thu Dec 19 23:43:28 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:43:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

Back to my question

> I can't grasp why terminal velocity tune loses power
> in lower gears

I'm being very dopey or there is a contradiction here with your original
answer. Probably the former.

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Wade" 
>
> Regardless of how the power ends up being distributed
> (friction, acceleration, wind drag), best power is
> best power.  If you tuned every load/speed cell in the
> map for best power, you might not get the very best
> possible gas milleage, but you should have optimized
> the power output everywhere, and thus see it in
> improved times down the road in lower gears as well as
> higher ones.
>
>



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From shurvinton at orange.net  Thu Dec 19 23:43:32 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:43:32 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 
Message-ID: 

You can't isolate it, but you can take it out the equation with a coast
down. Otherwise you would put skinny tyres at high pressure on you car
before going to the dyno so you could proove to your mates that you have 10
more RWHP than they do.

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12


> How would you isolate the friction in the contact patch?  Without a way
> to attach a similar mass to the wheels without the friction of the
> contact patch...  And additionally, since the tire is normally on the
> road, it's not unreasonable to say that rear wheel hp is the net sum>



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From shurvinton at orange.net  Thu Dec 19 23:43:37 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:43:37 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] :dynos and tuning
Message-ID: 

I guess so, but you might end up needing more gears than I have and you may
have to trade flexibility.

Also you have to know what the desired TPS% vs power curve in each gear
looks like and for a street driven car that has to relate to how you want it
to behave. I appear to have steered this thread  into the 'drivability'
domain.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] :dynos and tuning


> --- William Shurvinton  wrote:
>
> > However at low throttle openings many engines are
> > very tolerant of huge variations in AFR, so
> > you 'MIGHT' want to tune the 8HP point for 15%
> > throttle. This way you get reduced pumping losses
> > therefore better gas mileage and possibly more
> > drivability. This is a 'street' thing as race
> > drivers want power and throttle response.
>
> Wouldn't you get basically the same effect by changing
> gears so that you had an engine speed where your
> desired throttle opening corresponded to the power
> output you desired?



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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Thu Dec 19 23:49:28 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:49:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] 1.8 t engine in 1988 A2
Message-ID: 

On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 04:05:12PM -0000, Richards, Sean wrote:
>does anyone here know if the 1.8 t engine can fit into a 1988 a2
>engine bay.

Yes it does. I've seen a couple of them in Europe.
It gets a bit fiddly and is a tight fit around the back
of the engine. You'll spend a lot of time on the wiring harness.

Better fit is available in a post 8/89 model and the electrics are
allegedly less onerous. The later body has a bulge in the firewall
behind the engine; originally intended for the G60's (16V) ancillaries.

>i have someone will to sell me everything from a 2000 1.8 t jetta.

Get the front axle and transmission as well; don't forget the
clutch pedal assembly; which is hydraulically-actuated.

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
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/ \  and postings          | to help me spread!

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 00:04:34 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:04:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

> No: dave's point: Best power is way off detonation
> in a race engine. My question, why does a modern
> road car gain 10HP when run on high octane (real
> test, think it was a BMW) when all it has to go on
> is the knock sensor.

> Inference: it must be running close to knock all the
> time.

Often, that is the case.  With the lean mixtures
reguired for current emissions, lower-octane fuels
often require retarded timing to prevent detonation,
IME.  Usually in cars like the BMW, you will find a
recommendation in the manual for a higher-octane fuel
in any case.  Just because you CAN run it on a
lower-octane fuel doesn't mean it's a great idea.  As
a rule, I tell people to run the lowest octane they
can without pinging; if the car retards timing on a
knock sensor, use what the manual recommends, in
general.

> I quoted F1 because it is an extreme case. The
> engines are run at riduculous coolant temps and revs
> and until recently were billet unobtanium.

I like to think in many ways they still are.  ;)

> I like beryllium in space apps, but not sure I want
> it in my car.

Sure makes repairs a bit more difficult, I should
think.  ;)

> However the coolant temp in this case is due to not
> being able to get the heat out, not because the
> engine liked the heat.

True, although again I think they are primarily
concerned with components failing when they get too
hot over anything else.  As I'm not a design engineer
for an F1 team, I can't say for sure.  :D

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From langwadt at ieee.org  Fri Dec 20 00:12:21 2002
From: langwadt at ieee.org (Lasse Langwadt Christensen)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:12:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #428 - 11 msgs
Message-ID: 

Erik Jacobs wrote:
>>does anyone here know if the 1.8 t engine can fit into a 1988 a2
>>engine bay.
>>i have someone will to sell me everything from a 2000 1.8 t jetta.
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure it will FIT.  the question is a mount kit and turbo
> clearance and plumbing, but the engine itself will fit, as far as I know.
> 

It's my impression that almost everything VW build after and sometimes
including the beetle with fit together :)

> Hell, if the VR6 can go into an A2 chassis, I don't see why a 1.8T can't!
> 

the question is, why would anyone want to put that big ugly vr6 engine 
in anything .....

-Lasse


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From Shannen at grolen.com  Fri Dec 20 00:35:49 2002
From: Shannen at grolen.com (Shannen at grolen.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:35:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12
Message-ID: 

DYou're referring to "the equation" for engine hp?  Yes, you can take out
all effects measured during a coastdown when figuring hp at the flywheel
from hp at the drive wheels.  I do not see a way to remove that same
friction from the wheel hp number using a coastdown without knowing in
advance the mass of the drivetrain components which are coasting down.
Although...  we might be able to determine tire friction by observing
temperature rise in the drums.
People try all sorts of tricks to get more hp to show the buddies.  Like
the guy said, bragging rights are at stake.  And unfortunately dj makes
it far to easy to give a printout with relatively large hp numbers to
take home.  It's fun to see the differences between people who want to
get a big printout vs people who want to know the actual power of the
engine.
Shannen
I>You can't isolate it, but you can take it out the equation with a coast
DI>down. Otherwise you would put skinny tyres at high pressure on you car
DI>before going to the dyno so you could proove to your mates that you have 10
DI>more RWHP than they do.

DI>Bill
DI>----- Original Message -----
DI>From: 
DI>To: 
DI>Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:45 PM
DI>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12


DI>> How would you isolate the friction in the contact patch?  Without a way
DI>> to attach a similar mass to the wheels without the friction of the
DI>> contact patch...  And additionally, since the tire is normally on the
DI>> road, it's not unreasonable to say that rear wheel hp is the net sum>



DI>_______________________________________________
DI>Diy_efi mailing list
DI>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
DI>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 00:38:38 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:38:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

>> I can't grasp why terminal velocity tune loses
>> power in lower gears

> I'm being very dopey or there is a contradiction
> here with your original answer. Probably the former.

Heh, okay, I'll take another stab.

In low gears, you're at low speed.  Very little wind
drag.  The vast majority of the power goes into
acceleration.  Quick acceleration means you move from
cell to cell on the map very quickly.  If there is bad
tuning on a particular cell, the ECU spends so little
time there it may be undetectable in an acceleration
run.

The higher the gear, the faster the vehicle, and the
more wind drag.  Acceleration happens much more
slowly, because you are having to overcome increased
wind drag as well as accelerate the mass of the
vehicle.  You spend a lot longer on each cell of the
map, and any problems in a cell become more apparent
and easier to perceive.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 00:43:15 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:43:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] :dynos and tuning
Message-ID: 

--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

>> Wouldn't you get basically the same effect by
>> changing gears so that you had an engine speed
>> where your desired throttle opening corresponded to
>> the power output you desired?

> I guess so, but you might end up needing more gears
> than I have and you may have to trade flexibility.

Well, unless your engine is ridiculously peaky, 5 or 6
should be fine for most things, especially if we're
not talking about a racing vehicle.  Beyond that it's
down to whoever set the gear ratios doing their job
well...

> Also you have to know what the desired TPS% vs power
> curve in each gear looks like and for a street
> driven car that has to relate to how you want it
> to behave.

That's something that requires a lot of
trial-and-error to obtain, I would think.

> I appear to have steered this thread into
> the 'drivability' domain.

Nothing wrong with that.  ;)  To me, the only place I
REALLY would care about that would be high-speed
cruise, since I doubt very much that the fuel
efficiency would be dramatically different with
different settings when there's little to no air drag
using up power (30 mph?).

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 00:48:51 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:48:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: 

--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

>> I can't grasp why terminal velocity tune loses
>> power in lower gears

> I'm being very dopey or there is a contradiction
> here with your original answer. Probably the former.

Oh, I forgot to mention, that on an inertial dyno,
say, in higher gears, you are trying to accelerate the
mass through a longer lever arm, and so it requires
more torque.  This has a very similar effect to that
of DRIVING the car in a higher gear, albeit to a
lesser degree.  It takes more instantaneous torque to
accelerate the drum a set amount, and so the engine
accelerates more slowly, making it a bit easier to
tune.

Obviously the easiest way to tune is to keep the
engine steady-state, absorbing all the power it can
produce without allowing acceleration.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From eric.deslauriers at oracle.com  Fri Dec 20 00:51:12 2002
From: eric.deslauriers at oracle.com (Eric Deslauriers)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:51:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

DATA: A 97 M3 gets 2-4mpg less on the highway on 87 octane than 89 or 93.
And you can really tell that the power went away. Note that you don't hear
the pinging, but you do feel the engine back off significantly where it
usually pulls.

There *are* some cars that come stock that actually take advantage of the
higher octane rated fuels. :)

This was a friend of mine's M3 (US spec, 240hp 3.2L, stock).

Ditto my 98 K1200RS motorcycle. It supports 87 octane through knock sensors.
But you can really tell when you're running it (Sometimes, in Nevada, you
gots to take what you can gets).

Eric D

> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of Adam Wade
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 4:07 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
>
>
> --- William Shurvinton  wrote:
>
> > No: dave's point: Best power is way off detonation
> > in a race engine. My question, why does a modern
> > road car gain 10HP when run on high octane (real
> > test, think it was a BMW) when all it has to go on
> > is the knock sensor.
>
> > Inference: it must be running close to knock all the
> > time.
>
> Often, that is the case.  With the lean mixtures
> reguired for current emissions, lower-octane fuels
> often require retarded timing to prevent detonation,
> IME.  Usually in cars like the BMW, you will find a
> recommendation in the manual for a higher-octane fuel
> in any case.  Just because you CAN run it on a
> lower-octane fuel doesn't mean it's a great idea.  As
> a rule, I tell people to run the lowest octane they
> can without pinging; if the car retards timing on a
> knock sensor, use what the manual recommends, in
> general.
>
> > I quoted F1 because it is an extreme case. The
> > engines are run at riduculous coolant temps and revs
> > and until recently were billet unobtanium.
>
> I like to think in many ways they still are.  ;)
>
> > I like beryllium in space apps, but not sure I want
> > it in my car.
>
> Sure makes repairs a bit more difficult, I should
> think.  ;)
>
> > However the coolant temp in this case is due to not
> > being able to get the heat out, not because the
> > engine liked the heat.
>
> True, although again I think they are primarily
> concerned with components failing when they get too
> hot over anything else.  As I'm not a design engineer
> for an F1 team, I can't say for sure.  :D
>
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
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>


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From diy-efi at t-n-e.com  Fri Dec 20 00:54:59 2002
From: diy-efi at t-n-e.com (Phil Hunter)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:54:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

> The limitation is that at the onset of detonation EGT will
> rise sharply.

BZZZT!!!

In normal combustion, there is a "boundary layer" of air (or
A/F) that "sticks" to the metal surfaces and acts like an
insulator between the combustion temps and the metal. The
shock waves from detonation "scour" this layer away, exposing
the metal to the high temps, metal temps skyrocket, combustion
temps plummet.

So, EGT *DROPS* w/ detonation, you're in for a big surprise
if you are expecting it to "rise sharply".

rgds,
philh
(digest)

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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 01:00:54 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:00:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3123238060_87752
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

I=B9ve got a wee problem.

20B (mazda) engine running Methanol, 2bar + of boost and Nitrous, produces
too much power (torque) for the dyno (International Dynometers Dyno Packs =AD
Hub)
In 2wd mode they are good for around 800hp, but nowhere near the torque of
the engine.
Engine is looking to put out approx 900hp before Nitrous.
The engine will be able to be tuned to around 5000rpm on the dyno before
torque limits, but as its running a 5500rpm stall convertor in it that will
pose problems also.

Apart from making MANY drag passes and logging everything and tuning back
from there, does anyone have some ideas that maybe we havn=B9t thought of to
tune this thing?

Cheers
--=20
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813




--B_3123238060_87752
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable



Tuning with too much power for dyno?


I’ve got a wee problem.



20B (mazda) engine running Methanol, 2bar + of boost and Nitrous, produces =
too much power (torque) for the dyno (International Dynometers Dyno Packs &#=
8211; Hub)

In 2wd mode they are good for around 800hp, but nowhere near the torque of =
the engine.

Engine is looking to put out approx 900hp before Nitrous.

The engine will be able to be tuned to around 5000rpm on the dyno before to=
rque limits, but as its running a 5500rpm stall convertor in it that will po=
se problems also.



Apart from making MANY drag passes and logging everything and tuning back f=
rom there, does anyone have some ideas that maybe we havn’t thought of=
 to tune this thing?



Cheers

-- 

Matt Porritt

RC Race Cars and Supplies

ICQ #22776813










--B_3123238060_87752--


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 01:17:03 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:17:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

--- Matt Porritt  wrote:

> Apart from making MANY drag passes and logging
> everything and tuning back from there, does anyone
> have some ideas that maybe we havn?t thought of to
> tune this thing?

What are you using to determine air consumption? 
Seems like you might be able to rough out a map to
within 5-10% with a restrictor of some known value on
the intake if you are using a MAP or MAF for WOT...

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From skulte at skulte.com  Fri Dec 20 01:21:12 2002
From: skulte at skulte.com (Andris Skulte)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:21:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Please unsbscribe my email address
Message-ID: 

Since you quoted the entire digest, ummm.... no!

A.

PS - for the secret password, you can click on the link at the bottom of
every post/digest, or send me thousands of dollars in unmarked bills so I
can buy some in cylinder pressure tranducers.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of legend88 at telusplanet.net
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:27 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Please unsbscribe my email address
>
>
> Legend88 at telusplanet.net
> Thanks



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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 01:26:05 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:26:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

We'll be using MAP.
The only problem is we're not sure how the engine is going to respond as far
as the size of the turbo, porting overlap and methanol.
I have no previous experience of methanol with EFI.. Only with carbs on
bikes.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 20/12/02 2:24 PM Adam Wade wrote

> What are you using to determine air consumption?
> Seems like you might be able to rough out a map to
> within 5-10% with a restrictor of some known value on
> the intake if you are using a MAP or MAF for WOT...


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From chapmans at ihug.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 01:26:57 2002
From: chapmans at ihug.co.nz (Lachlan Chapman)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:26:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0545_01C2A834.61799940
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tuning with too much power for dyno?Sounds like quite a weapon!

Can i come have a look at it some day?

(I am in NZ)
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Matt Porritt=20
  To: DIY-EFI=20
  Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 2:07 PM
  Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?


  I've got a wee problem.

  20B (mazda) engine running Methanol, 2bar + of boost and Nitrous, =
produces too much power (torque) for the dyno (International Dynometers =
Dyno Packs - Hub)
  In 2wd mode they are good for around 800hp, but nowhere near the =
torque of the engine.
  Engine is looking to put out approx 900hp before Nitrous.
  The engine will be able to be tuned to around 5000rpm on the dyno =
before torque limits, but as its running a 5500rpm stall convertor in it =
that will pose problems also.

  Apart from making MANY drag passes and logging everything and tuning =
back from there, does anyone have some ideas that maybe we havn't =
thought of to tune this thing?

  Cheers
  --=20
  Matt Porritt
  RC Race Cars and Supplies
  ICQ #22776813




------=_NextPart_000_0545_01C2A834.61799940
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Tuning with too much power for dyno?






Sounds like quite a =
weapon!


 


Can i come have a look at it some =
day?


 


(I am in NZ)


  
----- Original Message ----- 

  From:=20
  Matt=20
  Porritt 
  
To: DIY-EFI 

  
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 =
2:07=20
  PM

  
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with =
too much=20
  power for dyno?

  

I=92ve got a wee =
problem.

20B (mazda)=20
  engine running Methanol, 2bar + of boost and Nitrous, produces too =
much power=20
  (torque) for the dyno (International Dynometers Dyno Packs =96 =
Hub)
In 2wd=20
  mode they are good for around 800hp, but nowhere near the torque of =
the=20
  engine.
Engine is looking to put out approx 900hp before =
Nitrous.
The=20
  engine will be able to be tuned to around 5000rpm on the dyno before =
torque=20
  limits, but as its running a 5500rpm stall convertor in it that will =
pose=20
  problems also.

Apart from making MANY drag passes and logging=20
  everything and tuning back from there, does anyone have some ideas =
that maybe=20
  we havn=92t thought of to tune this thing?

Cheers
-- =

Matt=20
  Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ=20
#22776813




------=_NextPart_000_0545_01C2A834.61799940--


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From chapmans at ihug.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 01:36:05 2002
From: chapmans at ihug.co.nz (Lachlan Chapman)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:36:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

the other thing - have the people involved in the avc-r group buy been able
to make contact with you?

they have been getting quite angry of late!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Porritt" 
To: "DIY-EFI" 
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?


> We'll be using MAP.
> The only problem is we're not sure how the engine is going to respond as
far
> as the size of the turbo, porting overlap and methanol.
> I have no previous experience of methanol with EFI.. Only with carbs on
> bikes.
> --
> Matt Porritt
> RC Race Cars and Supplies
> ICQ #22776813
>
>
> On 20/12/02 2:24 PM Adam Wade wrote
>
> > What are you using to determine air consumption?
> > Seems like you might be able to rough out a map to
> > within 5-10% with a restrictor of some known value on
> > the intake if you are using a MAP or MAF for WOT...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 01:36:45 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:36:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3123240077_195021
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

No probs... Looking at prob March before we get a turn of the key anyway.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 20/12/02 2:30 PM Lachlan Chapman wrote

> Sounds like quite a weapon!
>  
> Can i come have a look at it some day?



--B_3123240077_195021
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable



Re: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?


No probs... Looking at prob March before we get a turn=
 of the key anyway.

-- 

Matt Porritt

RC Race Cars and Supplies

ICQ #22776813





On 20/12/02 2:30 PM Lachlan Chapman wrote




Sounds like quite a we=
apon!

 

Can i come have a look at it some =
day?









--B_3123240077_195021--


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Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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From chapmans at ihug.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 01:38:13 2002
From: chapmans at ihug.co.nz (Lachlan Chapman)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:38:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_05C3_01C2A836.40B02060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Re: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?Also maybe something =
like streetdyno *could* be used for road tuning, assuming you can get =
traction
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Matt Porritt=20
  To: DIY-EFI=20
  Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 2:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?


  No probs... Looking at prob March before we get a turn of the key =
anyway.
  --=20
  Matt Porritt
  RC Race Cars and Supplies
  ICQ #22776813


  On 20/12/02 2:30 PM Lachlan Chapman wrote


    Sounds like quite a weapon!

    Can i come have a look at it some day?




------=_NextPart_000_05C3_01C2A836.40B02060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Re: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for =
dyno?






Also maybe something like streetdyno =
*could* be=20
used for road tuning, assuming you can get traction


  
----- Original Message ----- 

  From:=20
  Matt=20
  Porritt 
  
To: DIY-EFI 

  
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 =
2:41=20
  PM

  
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Tuning =
with too=20
  much power for dyno?

  

No probs... Looking at prob March =
before we=20
  get a turn of the key anyway.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars =
and=20
  Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 20/12/02 2:30 PM Lachlan =
Chapman=20
  wrote


  
Sounds like quite a=20
    weapon!

Can i come have a look at it some=20
  day?



------=_NextPart_000_05C3_01C2A836.40B02060--


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From Shannen at grolen.com  Fri Dec 20 01:42:57 2002
From: Shannen at grolen.com (Shannen at grolen.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:42:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] :dynos and tuning
Message-ID: 

Neglecting low speed, around town driveability and efficiency will cause
some poor results in many parts of the country.  I don't know where
you're at, but heavily populated areas often require considerable amount
of stop and go driving.  You may be able to ignore this in a bike, but
if you're tuning a street car you won't be very popular for very long.
Shannen
DI>--- William Shurvinton  wrote:

DI>>> Wouldn't you get basically the same effect by
DI>>> changing gears so that you had an engine speed
DI>>> where your desired throttle opening corresponded to
DI>>> the power output you desired?

DI>> I guess so, but you might end up needing more gears
DI>> than I have and you may have to trade flexibility.

DI>Well, unless your engine is ridiculously peaky, 5 or 6
DI>should be fine for most things, especially if we're
DI>not talking about a racing vehicle.  Beyond that it's
DI>down to whoever set the gear ratios doing their job
DI>well...

DI>> Also you have to know what the desired TPS% vs power
DI>> curve in each gear looks like and for a street
DI>> driven car that has to relate to how you want it
DI>> to behave.

DI>That's something that requires a lot of
DI>trial-and-error to obtain, I would think.

DI>> I appear to have steered this thread into
DI>> the 'drivability' domain.

DI>Nothing wrong with that.  ;)  To me, the only place I
DI>REALLY would care about that would be high-speed
DI>cruise, since I doubt very much that the fuel
DI>efficiency would be dramatically different with
DI>different settings when there's little to no air drag
DI>using up power (30 mph?).

DI>=====
DI>| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
DI>|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
DI>| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
DI>|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
DI>|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
DI>|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
DI>|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

DI>__________________________________________________
DI>Do you Yahoo!?
DI>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
DI>http://mailplus.yahoo.com

DI>_______________________________________________
DI>Diy_efi mailing list
DI>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
DI>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 01:45:43 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:45:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

--- Matt Porritt  wrote:

> We'll be using MAP.

> The only problem is we're not sure how the engine is
> going to respond as far as the size of the turbo,
> porting overlap and methanol. I have no previous
> experience of methanol with EFI..

> Only with carbs on bikes.

My thought was perhaps using a calibrated instake
restrictor and computing theoretical changes in
airflow with and without it, tuning with it on the
dyno to keep power down, and then using the math to
calculate theoretical values for the unrestricted car.
 While it will be far less than perfect, it most
likely would leave the car drivable enough to be able
to map out through drag runs, without having to waste
too much time fiddling to get "in the ballpark" at the
strip.  Dunno it if has a lot of merit, but it's a thought.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From Shannen at grolen.com  Fri Dec 20 01:47:21 2002
From: Shannen at grolen.com (Shannen at grolen.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:47:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

DHi, Matt.
You might consider finding someone who can generate a computer based map
from a limited set of test info.  This is a procedure used for
commercial engine tuning, and may be applicable for your application.
http://www.mathworks.com/company/newsletter/oct02/statistical.shtml
gives an example of the type of software used.
Shannen
I>I?ve got a wee problem.

DI>20B (mazda) engine running Methanol, 2bar + of boost and Nitrous, produces
DI>too much power (torque) for the dyno (International Dynometers Dyno Packs ?
DI>Hub)
DI>In 2wd mode they are good for around 800hp, but nowhere near the torque of
DI>the engine.
DI>Engine is looking to put out approx 900hp before Nitrous.
DI>The engine will be able to be tuned to around 5000rpm on the dyno before
DI>torque limits, but as its running a 5500rpm stall convertor in it that will
DI>pose problems also.

DI>Apart from making MANY drag passes and logging everything and tuning back
DI>from there, does anyone have some ideas that maybe we havn?t thought of to
DI>tune this thing?

DI>Cheers
DI>-- 
DI>Matt Porritt
DI>RC Race Cars and Supplies
DI>ICQ #22776813






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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 01:53:30 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:53:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

Sounds good.
The other reservation I have is being able to tune the car at 5500rpm on the
transbrake with a fair bit of load on it; due to trans temps going through
the roof while on the brake
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 20/12/02 2:52 PM Adam Wade wrote
> My thought was perhaps using a calibrated instake
> restrictor and computing theoretical changes in
> airflow with and without it, tuning with it on the
> dyno to keep power down, and then using the math to
> calculate theoretical values for the unrestricted car.
> While it will be far less than perfect, it most
> likely would leave the car drivable enough to be able
> to map out through drag runs, without having to waste
> too much time fiddling to get "in the ballpark" at the
> strip.  Dunno it if has a lot of merit, but it's a thought.
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 02:11:13 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:11:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] :dynos and tuning
Message-ID: 

--- Shannen at grolen.com wrote:

> Neglecting low speed, around town driveability and
> efficiency will cause some poor results in many
> parts of the country.

I've always tuned across the entire range for best
power and done minor tweaks for drivability as
necessary, not paying attention to efficiency OR power
when making the thing run WELL, and have never had any
problems in any part of the country.

I don't recall anyone saying they were going to
"disregard" anything except to not bother tuning for
best fuel economy at part-throttle cruise with very
low power demands.


=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 02:15:00 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:15:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

--- Matt Porritt  wrote:

> The other reservation I have is being able to tune
> the car at 5500rpm on the transbrake with a fair bit
> of load on it; due to trans temps going through
> the roof while on the brake

What cooling do you have in place for the trans? 
Could you fit auxiliary centrifugal fans to afford
extra trans cooling while on the dyno?

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 02:24:56 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:24:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

Nothing as yet as the cars still being built.. I'm looking slightly ahead to
what will be the hard parts.
I have toyed with the idea of using say 20 of oil in an external reservoir,
with cooling on that.. Whether or not it will work is another thing.
I've seen oil temps in these environments jump around 200deg F in a matter
of 3-4 sec on the transbrake with a bit of power going through the box.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813



On 20/12/02 3:23 PM Adam Wade wrote

> What cooling do you have in place for the trans?
> Could you fit auxiliary centrifugal fans to afford
> extra trans cooling while on the dyno?


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 02:49:38 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:49:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

--- Matt Porritt  wrote:

> I have toyed with the idea of using say 20 of oil in
> an external reservoir, with cooling on that..
> Whether or not it will work is another thing.
> I've seen oil temps in these environments jump
> around 200deg F in a matter of 3-4 sec on the
> transbrake with a bit of power going through the
box.

I might recommend a fluid/air heat exchanger with
separate pump (mechanically driven if you're concenred
about electrics), which would receive cooling air on
the track, and fan air on the dyno.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 03:02:49 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:02:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

Yeah, but  dyno simulation of launch stall revs is going to be hell on trans
fluid.. It'll boil quick smart.
Something is going to have to be sorted for dyno runs, and be 100x  more
than whats required for a single pass.
>From basic calcs at the mo, 20l min reservoir on the trans with a water/oil
cooler will prob cut the mustard.
Trans cooler with a 8" fan will suffice for track duties (hopefully!)

On 20/12/02 3:56 PM Adam Wade wrote

> I might recommend a fluid/air heat exchanger with
> separate pump (mechanically driven if you're concenred
> about electrics), which would receive cooling air on
> the track, and fan air on the dyno.


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From patc at opposition.tv  Fri Dec 20 03:28:16 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:28:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Peak power can occur on the edge of detonation and in fact many "boost
buttons" on N/A setups are nothing more than an ignition trim which puts the
advance up into the almost pinging region for a couple more HP. Needless to
say that their use is strictly time controlled and the method is only
employed in classes where engine development has hit a plateau so everyone
has much the same HP.

Ditto the bit about cool engines and keeping heat away to avoid detonation.
The temperature variance you refer to has more to do with a question of
tolerances and sealing. I can tell you of  a few engines which currently run
coolant temps of 55-70deg. Celsius with CR's in the 13:1 to 14:1 range and
max advance of 32deg in naturally aspirated format. These guys are also
winning international races and have been for some years like this. I'm not
going to tell you who it is as they would not appreciate the attention.
Suffice to say two are English, one Italian, one French, one German and two
Japanese.

BTW, they are not backyard hackers, in fact one is the Motorsport dept. of a
very large automaker.

In fact, it has been a popular theory for years that cool water and hot oil
are the real way to make HP. Even my liquid cooled Kawasaki KX250 runs quite
cold as you can pull up after a run through the bush on a hot summer day and
still touch the radiators. The big loser with cold coolant temperatures is
emission levels not power.

Someone asked in a post who blew up all the engines on the dyno trying to
get the ignition map right and the answer is HKS when they tried to build an
F3 motor a few years ago.


Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:12:38 -0500
From: Dave Dahlgren 
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

I have no clue what the beginning of this was alluding to as I could not
follow
it. The part about decreased air density requiring less timing lost me. Are
you
suggesting if the map sensor reads 20 kpa you would retard the timing from
what
it is set at at 40kpa?? Air temperature increases need less timing yes but
it is
not air density related at all.

If you have never worked with an ecu that has gear compensation then you
don't
know how it works only how you would do it. Do yourself a favor. Next time
you
are on the inertia dyno make a pull in first gear and one in high gear and
data
log  the O2 readings for both runs. Show me the part where they are the
same.
Detonation is so far removed from tuning racing engines that if you get to
that
point you have truly lost the rabbit so to speak. Peak power +- 0.5% is
quite a
ways from detonation. There is also no rule I have ever heard about keeping
heat
out of the cylinder heads. It is a heat engine. more heat more power. If you
keep the heads cool you lose power warming them up. Make a pull at 130
degree
water temp and one at 190... see for yourself. same goes for oil temp..
Keeping
the engine cool only makes you more comfortable not the engine. If you are
keeping the heads cool to stay out of detonation then you are running too
much
timing....


Dave

Shannen Durphey wrote:



> Gear ratio compensations _should_ be time compensations.  I've never
> used an ecu with a gear ratio compensation function, so they might be
> just that.

 But the time compensation should be (imo) to first reduce
> spark then add additional cooling media (fuel, water, alky, whatever) as
> the amount of time under load increases.  For control systems which do
> not have time compensations, the tuner must estimate if and when
> cylinder heating will cause detonation.  And the tuner must add the
> necessary amount of fuel to prevent detonation before it happens.  Which
> means that if the tuner is wrong, or if the conditions under which he's
> made his estimation are substantially different from the operating
> conditions of the vehicle, his tune is less than the best.
>
> 
>
> Shannen






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From emj14 at columbia.edu  Fri Dec 20 03:39:45 2002
From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:39:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #428 - 11 msgs
Message-ID: 

> the question is, why would anyone want to put that big ugly vr6 engine
> in anything .....

6cyl = torque = better drag car... my friend has a jetta with VR6 that ran
10 something on a terrible tune and water in the gas.


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 04:02:43 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:02:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Hugh,

Please quote the authoritative source of your information
that "octane has everything to do with speed of burn" ?

rgds

Mike



At 10:15 AM 19/12/2002 -0000, you wrote:
>
>Mike wrote "Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking
>" - yes
>
>This is at its most basic level achieved by altering the fuel to burn more
>predictably and slowly by removing the most volatile components or modifying
>the way that the most volatile components burn with additives.
>
>In short octane has everything to do with the speed of the burn.
>
>High octane fuels do not necessarily give the most power. Brian Geddes
>posted a couple of days ago that his Miata did not knock regardless of
>ignition timing. In this situation, it might be worth trying a lower octane
>fuel which when optimised for timing and fuel mixture may give a higher
>cylinder pressure through the faster burn and therefore slightly more power
>even though the calorific values of the high and low octane fuels are
>similar.
>
>Do not confuse high octane with high energy as unless it is a racing fuel,
>the two do not normally go hand in hand.
>
>Hugh
>
>----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:25 AM
>Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>
>
>> At 11:23 AM 18/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>> >--- "Geddes, Brian J" 
>> >wrote:
>> >Well, if you are talking in that sense, simply up the
>> >octane to cover the extra compression.  However, you
>> >can run into a point of diminishing returns as far as
>> >power output at higher rpms with the slower burn...
>>
>> Huh ?
>>
>> WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?
>>
>> Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>
>
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 04:03:22 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:03:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

At 01:20 PM 19/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>I think the head was partially or completely devoid of 
>coolant.  The extra heat in the combustion chamber caused 
>the car to run like a raped ape. It was pulling harder 
>than I've ever felt it pull before, and with fuel settings 
>about 7% richer than they ought to be. 90.5 in the 1/8th! 
>Doh! 12.52 at 112mph with a lousy 1.88 60-ft.

Thats where your raped ape got its extra power, from
water in the chambers - enough to perhaps increase CR
(effectively) and reduce pinging for the short period of
time,

I've noticed this on a ford escort when I blew a gasket between
chambers 2 and 3 - bit more power (!) for a little while then
kampumpf :(

Do you normally run a wet manifold ?

rgds

mike


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 04:14:04 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:14:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 12:03 PM 19/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>--- Hugh Keir  wrote:
>
>> In short octane has everything to do with the speed
>> of the burn.
>
>I'd add that this is only completely true in pump gas.

In Australia we call this a 'load of bull', it is *not*
completely true under any circumstances Adam.

Your opinion is "broken and needs fixing" cause it perpetuates
an invalid unsophisticated myth stemming from a misunderstanding
of petrochemicals and what fuel companies do...

There 'might' be a minor correlation between higher octane
and speed of burn it aint a causual relationship and in fact
the opposite tends to be true to a much larger degree,

> Racing fuels often will burn more rapidly than pump
>gas without pinging.

yes, and the component petrochemicals are not woefully
dissimilar to that in pump gas, go talk to the fuel
companies - and not some apprentice at the first
level of contact...

You're way off the mark Adam, please dont put your
opinion re octane/burn rate in your book - you might
get sued...

Please check your references before putting anything
like that down on paper or in emails for that matter



rgds

mike



>> High octane fuels do not necessarily give the most
>> power.
>
>In fact, unless your timing is optimized for them, you
>can LOSE power with them.
>
>=====
>| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
>|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
>| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
>|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
>|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
>|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
>|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>

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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 04:20:12 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:20:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Without coming across the wrong way Mike, why not put some truth to the
'rumours' on burn rate and octane rating etc?? I'm sure that a few people
would learn something.

I'm particularly interested in methanol's properties and rates etc.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 20/12/02 12:27 PM Mike wrote

> At 12:03 PM 19/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>> --- Hugh Keir  wrote:
>> 
>>> In short octane has everything to do with the speed
>>> of the burn.
>> 
>> I'd add that this is only completely true in pump gas.
> 
> In Australia we call this a 'load of bull', it is *not*
> completely true under any circumstances Adam.
> 
> Your opinion is "broken and needs fixing" cause it perpetuates
> an invalid unsophisticated myth stemming from a misunderstanding
> of petrochemicals and what fuel companies do...
> 
> There 'might' be a minor correlation between higher octane
> and speed of burn it aint a causual relationship and in fact
> the opposite tends to be true to a much larger degree,
> 
>> Racing fuels often will burn more rapidly than pump
>> gas without pinging.
> 
> yes, and the component petrochemicals are not woefully
> dissimilar to that in pump gas, go talk to the fuel
> companies - and not some apprentice at the first
> level of contact...
> 
> You're way off the mark Adam, please dont put your
> opinion re octane/burn rate in your book - you might
> get sued...
> 
> Please check your references before putting anything
> like that down on paper or in emails for that matter
> 
> 
> 
> rgds
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> 
>>> High octane fuels do not necessarily give the most
>>> power.
>> 
>> In fact, unless your timing is optimized for them, you
>> can LOSE power with them.
>> 
>> =====
>> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
>> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
>> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
>> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
>> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
>> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
>> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>> 
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
>> 
> 
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 04:24:00 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:24:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 01:29 PM 19/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:

Nice piece of detailled info on the chemistry Brian,
I guess with transparent chambers, high speed camera
and spectral anaylsis these species can be straigthforward
to locate and observe the dynamics...

tah

mike



>> You are wrong on all points, I take it you either havent been on this
>> list for long or havent read anything about octane, what it is or how
>> its measured...
>
>
>Correct.  Octane ratings don't correspomd with flame speed or energy
>content.  It has everything to do with what happens to the charge that
>has not yet been reached by the flame front.  
>
>I suggest the Gasoline FAQ for anyone interested, it's a tad outdated
>(mid-90s) but it still has tons of info.  I'll include the relevant
>excerpt from it below.
>
>http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
>
>6.3  What fuel property does the Octane Rating measure?
>
>The fuel property the octane ratings measure is the ability of the
>unburnt
>end gases to spontaneously ignite under the specified test conditions.
>Within the chemical structure of the fuel is the ability to withstand  
>pre-flame conditions without decomposing into species that will
>autoignite 
>before the flame-front arrives. Different reaction mechanisms, occurring
>at
>various stages of the pre-flame compression stroke, are responsible for
>the 
>undesirable, easily-autoignitable, end gases.
>
>During the oxidation of a hydrocarbon fuel, the hydrogen atoms are
>removed 
>one at a time from the molecule by reactions with small radical species
>(such as OH and HO2), and O and H atoms. The strength of carbon-hydrogen
>bonds depends on what the carbon is connected to. Straight chain HCs
>such as
>normal heptane have secondary C-H bonds that are significantly weaker
>than
>the primary C-H bonds present in branched chain HCs like iso-octane
>[21,22].
>
>
>The octane rating of hydrocarbons is determined by the structure of the 
>molecule, with long, straight hydrocarbon chains producing large amounts
>of 
>easily-autoignitable pre-flame decomposition species, while branched and 
>aromatic hydrocarbons are more resistant. This also explains why the
>octane
>ratings of paraffins consistently decrease with carbon number. In real
>life, 
>the unburnt "end gases" ahead of the flame front encounter temperatures
>up 
>to about 700C due to compression and radiant and conductive heating, and 
>commence a series of pre-flame reactions. These reactions occur at
>different 
>thermal stages, with the initial stage ( below 400C ) commencing with
>the 
>addition of molecular oxygen to alkyl radicals, followed by the internal 
>transfer of hydrogen atoms within the new radical to form an
>unsaturated, 
>oxygen-containing species. These new species are susceptible to chain 
>branching involving the HO2 radical during the intermediate temperature 
>stage (400-600C), mainly through the production of OH radicals. Above
>600C, 
>the most important reaction that produces chain branching is the
>reaction of 
>one hydrogen atom radical with molecular oxygen to form O and OH
>radicals.
>
>The addition of additives such as alkyl lead and oxygenates can 
>significantly affect the pre-flame reaction pathways. Antiknock
>additives 
>work by interfering at different points in the pre-flame reactions, with
>the oxygenates retarding undesirable low temperature reactions, and the
>alkyl lead compounds react in the intermediate temperature region to 
>deactivate the major undesirable chain branching sequence [21,22]. 
>
>The antiknock ability is related to the "autoignition temperature" of
>the 
>hydrocarbons. Antiknock ability is _not_ substantially related to:-
>1. The energy content of fuel, this should be obvious, as oxygenates
>have 
>   lower energy contents, but high octanes.
>2. The flame speed of the conventionally ignited mixture, this should be
>   evident from the similarities of the two reference hydrocarbons. 
>   Although flame speed does play a minor part, there are many other
>factors 
>   that are far more important. ( such as compression ratio,
>stoichiometry,
>   combustion chamber shape, chemical structure of the fuel, presence of 
>   antiknock additives, number and position of spark plugs, turbulence
>etc.)
>   Flame speed does not correlate with octane.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 04:27:22 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:27:22 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EPROM Maps
Message-ID: 

go to the nissans13 group on yahoo or auscars on yahoo, there
are a few people there who have decoded or copied several
jap import maps,

rgds

mike


At 11:31 AM 20/12/2002 +1300, you wrote:
>Anyone have a collection (or any) EPROM Maps for Japanese Vehicles?
>I=B9m just looking for vases to tune from.
>
>Cheers
>--=20
>Matt Porritt
>RC Race Cars and Supplies
>ICQ #22776813
>
>
>Attachment Converted: "C:\MAIL\INCOMING\Diy_efiE"
>

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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 04:34:56 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:34:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EPROM Maps
Message-ID: 

I've got the majority of base Nissan maps, in search of the Mitsi and Hondas
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 20/12/02 12:42 PM Mike wrote

> go to the nissans13 group on yahoo or auscars on yahoo, there
> are a few people there who have decoded or copied several
> jap import maps,


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 04:39:02 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:39:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Interesting,

A poor mans detonation sensor for each cylinder could be as
simple as an EGT sensor correctly positioned without the
mechanical noise issue prevalent with peizo sensors,
the cost of pyrometers with associated electronics could
well be less than the highest spec piezo sensors and
simultaneuously provide exhaust gas temperature - nice :-)

Or rather use EGT in correlation with a couple of piezo
sensors for fine detail prior to step change in EGT.

The 3L block (RB30ET) for my Nissan motor in my GMH (Aust),
has place for 3 detonation sensors, I guess I'll start
with one EGT ahead of the turbo,

rgds

mike



At 04:54 PM 19/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>> The limitation is that at the onset of detonation EGT will
>> rise sharply.
>
>BZZZT!!!
>
>In normal combustion, there is a "boundary layer" of air (or
>A/F) that "sticks" to the metal surfaces and acts like an
>insulator between the combustion temps and the metal. The
>shock waves from detonation "scour" this layer away, exposing
>the metal to the high temps, metal temps skyrocket, combustion
>temps plummet.
>
>So, EGT *DROPS* w/ detonation, you're in for a big surprise
>if you are expecting it to "rise sharply".
>
>rgds,
>philh
>(digest)
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 04:42:01 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:42:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EPROM Maps
Message-ID: 

auscars in that case would prob be the best source, by now I
think there also might be a honda group or hondatune on
yahoo as well !

rgds

mike


At 05:42 PM 20/12/2002 +1300, you wrote:
>I've got the majority of base Nissan maps, in search of the Mitsi and Hondas
>-- 
>Matt Porritt
>RC Race Cars and Supplies
>ICQ #22776813
>
>
>On 20/12/02 12:42 PM Mike wrote
>
>> go to the nissans13 group on yahoo or auscars on yahoo, there
>> are a few people there who have decoded or copied several
>> jap import maps,
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 04:50:56 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:50:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

yeah no worries,

Brian quoted an interesting reference just recently, more up
to date then on my old lab or workshop PC

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/

>From what I recall methanol is almost likely the ideal
fuel, highest octane by far and (in theory) cheapest
to make (if people dont profiteer from supply chain),
only couple of probs are weight for energy is half that
of petrol and the invisible flame on pure methanol, so
use an additive to make it visible - like potassium
carbonate or some chromium or copper compounds as methanol
behaves like water in terms of being able to dissolve
ionic salts of copper etc - Who knows, adding a particular
copper compound to methanol may well do something of
interest to further increase octane (and alter burn rate ;)
but there are several thousand to choose from ,
but it would give a nice green flame :o)


rgds

mike


At 05:27 PM 20/12/2002 +1300, you wrote:
>Without coming across the wrong way Mike, why not put some truth to the
>'rumours' on burn rate and octane rating etc?? I'm sure that a few people
>would learn something.
>
>I'm particularly interested in methanol's properties and rates etc.
>-- 
>Matt Porritt
>RC Race Cars and Supplies
>ICQ #22776813
>
>
>On 20/12/02 12:27 PM Mike wrote
>
>> At 12:03 PM 19/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>> --- Hugh Keir  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> In short octane has everything to do with the speed
>>>> of the burn.
>>> 
>>> I'd add that this is only completely true in pump gas.
>> 
>> In Australia we call this a 'load of bull', it is *not*
>> completely true under any circumstances Adam.
>> 
>> Your opinion is "broken and needs fixing" cause it perpetuates
>> an invalid unsophisticated myth stemming from a misunderstanding
>> of petrochemicals and what fuel companies do...
>> 
>> There 'might' be a minor correlation between higher octane
>> and speed of burn it aint a causual relationship and in fact
>> the opposite tends to be true to a much larger degree,
>> 
>>> Racing fuels often will burn more rapidly than pump
>>> gas without pinging.
>> 
>> yes, and the component petrochemicals are not woefully
>> dissimilar to that in pump gas, go talk to the fuel
>> companies - and not some apprentice at the first
>> level of contact...
>> 
>> You're way off the mark Adam, please dont put your
>> opinion re octane/burn rate in your book - you might
>> get sued...
>> 
>> Please check your references before putting anything
>> like that down on paper or in emails for that matter
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> rgds
>> 
>> mike
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>> High octane fuels do not necessarily give the most
>>>> power.
>>> 
>>> In fact, unless your timing is optimized for them, you
>>> can LOSE power with them.
>>> 
>>> =====
>>> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
>>> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
>>> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
>>> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
>>> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
>>> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
>>> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>>> 
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>>> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> 
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 04:54:40 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:54:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Oh forgot to mention that faq has 4 parts,

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part2/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part4/

cheers


mike



At 01:04 PM 20/12/2002, you wrote:
>yeah no worries,
>
>Brian quoted an interesting reference just recently, more up
>to date then on my old lab or workshop PC
>
>http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
>
>From what I recall methanol is almost likely the ideal
>fuel, highest octane by far and (in theory) cheapest
>to make (if people dont profiteer from supply chain),
>only couple of probs are weight for energy is half that
>of petrol and the invisible flame on pure methanol, so
>use an additive to make it visible - like potassium
>carbonate or some chromium or copper compounds as methanol
>behaves like water in terms of being able to dissolve
>ionic salts of copper etc - Who knows, adding a particular
>copper compound to methanol may well do something of
>interest to further increase octane (and alter burn rate ;)
>but there are several thousand to choose from ,
>but it would give a nice green flame :o)
>
>
>rgds
>
>mike
>
>
>At 05:27 PM 20/12/2002 +1300, you wrote:
>>Without coming across the wrong way Mike, why not put some truth to the
>>'rumours' on burn rate and octane rating etc?? I'm sure that a few people
>>would learn something.
>>
>>I'm particularly interested in methanol's properties and rates etc.
>>-- 
>>Matt Porritt
>>RC Race Cars and Supplies
>>ICQ #22776813
>>
>>
>>On 20/12/02 12:27 PM Mike wrote
>>
>>> At 12:03 PM 19/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>>> --- Hugh Keir  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> In short octane has everything to do with the speed
>>>>> of the burn.
>>>> 
>>>> I'd add that this is only completely true in pump gas.
>>> 
>>> In Australia we call this a 'load of bull', it is *not*
>>> completely true under any circumstances Adam.
>>> 
>>> Your opinion is "broken and needs fixing" cause it perpetuates
>>> an invalid unsophisticated myth stemming from a misunderstanding
>>> of petrochemicals and what fuel companies do...
>>> 
>>> There 'might' be a minor correlation between higher octane
>>> and speed of burn it aint a causual relationship and in fact
>>> the opposite tends to be true to a much larger degree,
>>> 
>>>> Racing fuels often will burn more rapidly than pump
>>>> gas without pinging.
>>> 
>>> yes, and the component petrochemicals are not woefully
>>> dissimilar to that in pump gas, go talk to the fuel
>>> companies - and not some apprentice at the first
>>> level of contact...
>>> 
>>> You're way off the mark Adam, please dont put your
>>> opinion re octane/burn rate in your book - you might
>>> get sued...
>>> 
>>> Please check your references before putting anything
>>> like that down on paper or in emails for that matter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> rgds
>>> 
>>> mike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> High octane fuels do not necessarily give the most
>>>>> power.
>>>> 
>>>> In fact, unless your timing is optimized for them, you
>>>> can LOSE power with them.
>>>> 
>>>> =====
>>>> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
>>>> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
>>>> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
>>>> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
>>>> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
>>>> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
>>>> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>>>> 
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>>> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>>>> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>> 
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 05:29:00 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:29:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EPROM Maps
Message-ID: 

I'm after both std and modified maps for B16,18 and H22.. Also D15.
Basicaly all nissan maps as std and some modified.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 20/12/02 6:26 PM Donnie Freichels wrote

> 
> 
> 
> 
> what honda maps do you want ?and what nissan maps do you have ????


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From allaboutspeed at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 20 06:20:36 2002
From: allaboutspeed at hotmail.com (Donnie Freichels)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 03:20:36 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EPROM Maps
Message-ID: 

well what software do you have to open them ?i have hondata and i have 
thunder rev i also have rom editor for nissan.i know that i have b16 b18 and 
h22 for hondata.i should have the same for thunder rev in both stock and 
after market ones.just let me know which ones you want and what software you 
have and ill see what i can do i know it only take a few seconds to email 
them.
thank you
donnie






From: Matt Porritt 
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>To: DIY-EFI ,Donnie Freichels 
>
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EPROM Maps
>Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:36:44 +1300
>
>I'm after both std and modified maps for B16,18 and H22.. Also D15.
>Basicaly all nissan maps as std and some modified.
>--
>Matt Porritt
>RC Race Cars and Supplies
>ICQ #22776813
>
>
>On 20/12/02 6:26 PM Donnie Freichels wrote
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > what honda maps do you want ?and what nissan maps do you have ????
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 06:28:50 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 03:28:50 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EPROM Maps
Message-ID: 

Getting a little OT.
Reply sent off list.

Thanks Donnie

On 20/12/02 7:27 PM Donnie Freichels wrote

> well what software do you have to open them ?i have hondata and i have
> thunder rev i also have rom editor for nissan.i know that i have b16 b18 and
> h22 for hondata.i should have the same for thunder rev in both stock and
> after market ones.just let me know which ones you want and what software you
> have and ill see what i can do i know it only take a few seconds to email
> them.
> thank you
> donnie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: Matt Porritt 
>> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> To: DIY-EFI ,Donnie Freichels
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EPROM Maps
>> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:36:44 +1300
>> 
>> I'm after both std and modified maps for B16,18 and H22.. Also D15.
>> Basicaly all nissan maps as std and some modified.
>> --
>> Matt Porritt
>> RC Race Cars and Supplies
>> ICQ #22776813
>> 
>> 
>> On 20/12/02 6:26 PM Donnie Freichels wrote
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> what honda maps do you want ?and what nissan maps do you have ????
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=
> 7474&SU= 
> http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From allaboutspeed at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 20 08:47:32 2002
From: allaboutspeed at hotmail.com (Donnie Freichels)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:47:32 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EPROM Maps
Message-ID: 





what honda maps do you want ?and what nissan maps do you have ????


From: Matt Porritt 
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>To: DIY-EFI 
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EPROM Maps
>Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:42:46 +1300
>
>I've got the majority of base Nissan maps, in search of the Mitsi and 
>Hondas
>--
>Matt Porritt
>RC Race Cars and Supplies
>ICQ #22776813
>
>
>On 20/12/02 12:42 PM Mike wrote
>
> > go to the nissans13 group on yahoo or auscars on yahoo, there
> > are a few people there who have decoded or copied several
> > jap import maps,
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 08:57:33 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:57:33 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Special relay I need
Message-ID: 

I need a relay that does this. Anybody help?

Has two seperate triggers to turn it ON, or OFF.

Trigger A when ON switches the relay ON. If trigger A turns OFF, relay remains
ON.
Trigger B when ON turns and holds relay OFF.


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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 09:06:21 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 06:06:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Special relay I need
Message-ID: 

I just found a definition of a type of relay:

DUAL COIL LATCHING:
DC Power to coil # 1 transfers contacts. Contacts maintain after DC Power to
coil #1 is removed. DC Power to coil #2 transfers contacts to original position.
Contacts maintain after power to coil #2 is removed.

That's what I want right?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 12:55 AM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Special relay I need


> I need a relay that does this. Anybody help?
>
> Has two seperate triggers to turn it ON, or OFF.
>
> Trigger A when ON switches the relay ON. If trigger A turns OFF, relay remains
> ON.
> Trigger B when ON turns and holds relay OFF.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 09:13:05 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 06:13:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Special relay I need
Message-ID: 


When A is off and B on ie turning the relay off.. What happens when you have
no B? Off state?
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 20/12/02 9:55 PM Derek wrote

> I need a relay that does this. Anybody help?
> 
> Has two seperate triggers to turn it ON, or OFF.
> 
> Trigger A when ON switches the relay ON. If trigger A turns OFF, relay remains
> ON.
> Trigger B when ON turns and holds relay OFF.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 09:17:09 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 06:17:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Special relay I need
Message-ID: 

Yip.. Prividing you want it off when coil #2 is de-energised.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 20/12/02 10:04 PM Derek wrote

> I just found a definition of a type of relay:
> 
> DUAL COIL LATCHING:
> DC Power to coil # 1 transfers contacts. Contacts maintain after DC Power to
> coil #1 is removed. DC Power to coil #2 transfers contacts to original
> position.
> Contacts maintain after power to coil #2 is removed.
> 
> That's what I want right?


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From sthl at gmx.de  Fri Dec 20 09:41:21 2002
From: sthl at gmx.de (Stephan Helbig)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 06:41:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Hexfile Map Structures
Message-ID: 

Hi John,

Indeed I have only one file where I can say it must be DAMOS structure.
The other files I have are all of some different format. They are
embedded in the programme code & sometimes they are not. 
Now as there seem to be no markers at the beginning there must be an
algorythm that defines what is a map and what is programming code as
there also are programmes which can extract the maps within programming
code.
Unfortunately I don't have *any* experience with this. What would you
recommend as a general guideline to search for? I can't find the needle
in the hay when I don't know how this needle looks like.
I've seen screenshots of programmes that sparated the maps. There seemed
to be some structure like this:
(??)(y-marker numbers)(y-values)(??)(x-marker numbers)(x-values)(map
values). Y-markers tell you how many numbers you need to set on the
y-axis, then the y-values follow and then there is a number which I
cannot assign to anything. The rest is as with the y-axis...

As for the processors: Bosch uses many different types, so there's no
general answer. I  my case it's a Siemens B57656 and B58298. Will this
take me further?!? Those two types of processors come from the same type
of ECU. So if Bosch uses them with the same software and different
processors, I guess those two must be independent from each other.

Stephan

Ioannis Andrianakis schrieb:
> 
> Bosch maps are not always in DAMOs format. There is usually a clear
> distinction between the program code area and the data-map area. What you
> see as program code between maps is usually smaller maps, even 1 byte maps.
> There is no map marker value at the beginning of each map and maps are not
> stored one after the other. You must find them by looks and testing. The
> more experience you gain the easier it will be.
> Regards,
> John Andrianakis

-- 
My Homepage:
http://www.e-ger-translation.de
http://people.freenet.de/sthl/
--


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 10:21:41 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:21:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Special relay I need
Message-ID: 

--- Derek  wrote:

> I need a relay that does this. Anybody help?

> Has two seperate triggers to turn it ON, or OFF.

> Trigger A when ON switches the relay ON. If trigger
> A turns OFF, relay remains ON.  Trigger B when ON
> turns and holds relay OFF.

Why not just drive a relay with a transistor gated by
a flip-flop?  Or if you are dealing with higher
current levels, why not just make a flip-flop circuit
out of discrete components?

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 10:37:39 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:37:39 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Special relay I need
Message-ID: 

I think he needs a latching relay, dual coil type.

The good thing about these is the contact position
is retained in the absence of power to either coil,
and this may well be desirable in his application
if he's looking for isolation.

rgds

mike



At 02:28 AM 20/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>--- Derek  wrote:
>
>> I need a relay that does this. Anybody help?
>
>> Has two seperate triggers to turn it ON, or OFF.
>
>> Trigger A when ON switches the relay ON. If trigger
>> A turns OFF, relay remains ON.  Trigger B when ON
>> turns and holds relay OFF.
>
>Why not just drive a relay with a transistor gated by
>a flip-flop?  Or if you are dealing with higher
>current levels, why not just make a flip-flop circuit
>out of discrete components?
>
>=====
>| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
>|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
>| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
>|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
>|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
>|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
>|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Dec 20 11:26:56 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:26:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

The Beemer I am sure is tuned for emissions and mileage not peak power.. The
compression ratio is probably a little on the high side for 87 octane as well
but that will make for a greater efficiency at part throttle.. Emission and
fleet mileage.. They have lots of compromises that race engines never see. If
you build an engine with too much compression for the fuel available you can
pull timing out at WOT to stay out of trouble but it will never run as well as
if it had the right fuel. For all you know the BMW might run best on 98 octane
that is not available in the USA at the pump.. Easiest test would be to add some
103 octane unleaded race gas and see how she goes..

As far as head temp goes I never suggested a heat riser in the way of sharp
edges was ok. It will always be a problem, 40 degrress of coolant temp will not
make the sharp edge show up though. A long pull on the dyno sure will though.
You can not find it in 1 second on a dyno jet though might take about 3 or 4
seconds under full load..

If the F1 guys needed to have the engine run cooler do you really think they
would say nope can't do it guess we will just be 30 hp down.. Face a couple of
million to solve the problem is pocket change to them..

Why not beryllium.. It makes real good valve seats.

Dave

William Shurvinton wrote:

> No: dave's point: Best power is way off detonation in a race engine. My
> question, why does a modern road car gain 10HP when run on high octane (real
> test, think it was a BMW) when all it has to go on is the knock sensor.
> Inference: it must be running close to knock all the time.
> 
> > > and race cars (F1 in particular) only ran so hot
> > > because the aero package demanded a limited rad area
> > > and air flow. Hotter was more efficient.
> >
> > With the engine components themselves, you are limited
> > by how much heat the materials involved can withstand
> > before weakening.  With highly-stressed engine parts
> > that are built to JUST withstand the stresses of a
> > race and be as light as possible, managing temperature
> > is CRITICAL.  So there are conflicting needs; the need
> > to keep the engine structurally sound, and the
> > "desire" to have it as hot as possible in the
> > combustion chamber.
> 
>  I quoted F1 because it is an extreme case. The engines are run at
> riduculous coolant temps and revs and until recently were billet unobtanium.
> I like beryllium in space apps, but not sure I want it in my car. However
> the coolant temp in this case is due to not being able to get the heat out,
> not because the engine liked the heat.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Dec 20 11:47:03 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:47:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

I have been a Motec dealer for quite a few years and before that spent a lot of
time straightening out what other dealers tried to do. My eyes are pretty
sharp.. So thanks for the offer but I will pass. All that data belongs to the
customer as I had said before. The Miata has an M4 with advanced tuning and
logging. You can data log the WBO2 with it being activated. I have to find a
very large trend before I change the fueling at the track compared to what I get
on the dyno. I generally look at the O2 readings and if they are incorrect or
different from the dyno look further into the data for the why are they
different and fix that.

This Miata is sort of the bottom of the heap compared to the usual project to be
honest. I am finishing up a Motec dash and M48 system for a Porsche 962 this
week. and usually work on vintage GTP stuff for the most part. The occasional
Cosworth DFR/DFX in open wheel cars as well. Next project is to sort out a 2002
Porsche GT3R dash that has to run in the Rolex 24 at daytona then on to a 1998
Buick indy lights car that needs a tune up.. Then fly out to Dallas to tune the
962. My company also designs and manufactures custom slide throttles for race
engines. Have won the Rolex 3 or 4 times with them. One year we had 5 of the top
7 cars running them. 

It might beg the question do you have any maps you want me to look at...
Dave


Patrick Cahill wrote:

> I can back up what Dave said about timing on these things. They are quite
> amazing in terms of efficiency and detonation resistance. The Mazda motor
> that I referred to in a post from a couple of days ago as being detonation
> proof was a 1.6L Miata engine and it is actually the test mule at MoTeC
> right here in Melbourne. I have seen it run 40plus deg timing on pump fuel
> without pre igniting. As Dave said, it just loses power. I can only put it
> down to an excellent cylinder head design as the main factor.
> 
> As a consequence of this, they do like to run on the lean side and I
> wouldn't bother with anymore than 32deg on any Miata. What MoTeC does your
> mate have? If it has the internal logging and lambda upgrades, these can be
> an easy way to tune on the run so to speak.
> 
> I have a great deal of experience with all MoTeC systems (V8Supercar to F3)
> and would be happy to look at your map for you if you would like a second
> set of eyes.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com  Fri Dec 20 11:56:19 2002
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:56:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

highly toxic and a bitch to machine. Unfortunately has some great =
properties that make it really useful.

Recycling directives are pushing us to remove it from our products. =
Problem is it is very difficult to find anything else that does the job =
as well.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net]

Why not beryllium.. It makes real good valve seats.

Dave


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Dec 20 12:10:45 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:10:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

Sure run a motec in alpha n mode. do all the programing you can at less b=
oost
but fill in all the tps mapping and then extrapolate the fuel correction =
for
boost from the trend you saw at lower boost.. Go to the track and slowly =
raise
the boost while data logging to make sure your extrapolated fuel is corre=
ct. Of
course you have to fill in the timing map with something sensible to begi=
n with
as well before you raise the boost. We have a customer that has a 13b tha=
t makes
just shy of 800 hp at 18 lbs boost on gas.. and we are looking to bump th=
at up
this winter to where you are headed.900 or so. 1000 is the target but I d=
on't
think we will see it even with alky. I would not bother with the nitrous =
on the
dyno especially a chassis dyno.. too much too fast and it ought to be a s=
eparate
system anyway.
Dave

Matt Porritt wrote:
>=20
> I=92ve got a wee problem.
>=20
> 20B (mazda) engine running Methanol, 2bar + of boost and Nitrous, produ=
ces too
> much power (torque) for the dyno (International Dynometers Dyno Packs =96=
 Hub)
> In 2wd mode they are good for around 800hp, but nowhere near the torque=
 of the
> engine.
> Engine is looking to put out approx 900hp before Nitrous.
> The engine will be able to be tuned to around 5000rpm on the dyno befor=
e
> torque limits, but as its running a 5500rpm stall convertor in it that =
will
> pose problems also.
>=20
> Apart from making MANY drag passes and logging everything and tuning ba=
ck from
> there, does anyone have some ideas that maybe we havn=92t thought of to=
 tune
> this thing?
>=20
> Cheers
> --
> Matt Porritt
> RC Race Cars and Supplies
> ICQ #22776813


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Dec 20 12:37:58 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:37:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Hot or cold you pick the 'correct' operating temp at that point the correction
for head or engine temp is 0 at other places when not up to temp you make the
correction.

Sharp edges excepted in the heat deal.. They don't belong in the head so you
really don't correct for them. If they are there you will run less timing than
if they were not.

The gear corrections are fixed. timing vs gear,fuel vs gear, boost vs gear....
You tweak these to get best transient response not peak power. In the lower
gears all the driver and car know is how willing the engine is to change speed
and deliver power quicker. In first gear you might add 2 degrees of timing and
take out 2% fuel. Or limit boost by 10% if the car will not hook up.. There is
no time based factor in the ones I have worked on.
Dave

Shannen at grolen.com wrote:
> 
> DI wasn't trying to say that decreased air density required decreased
> timing.  I was saying that a hotter head requires less timing.
> Since you haven't mentioned it, how does the gear based timing
>  and/or fuel correction work?  I'm curious as to whether it's a fixed.
> universal type of correction or something that can be varied with
> time.
> The point was you have to tune for the end of the straightaway, or for
> the top of the long hill instead of the bottom if you have no way to
> work out a correction for how long it takes to get up the hill.
> If all you work with are engines with well designed chambers and good
> flow characteristics, then there's no reason for you to have to deal
> with the effects caused by poorly designed systems.  Not all the boys in
> this area have the cash to buy the types of engines you're describing.
> No rule about keeping heat out of heads?  Well, take a well designed
> head, add some foolish sharp edge between the intake and exhaust valves,
> and watch for detonation.  It'll happen if the head gets hot enough.
> And if you're on the dyno, and it does happen, what options do you have
> to fix the problem?  Now step down to the level of the guys that are
> likely to show up at the local dyno shop.  They're gonna run what
> they've brung.  Some guys have good heads on the car, some do not.  If
> you're hired to make the car run as good as you can, do you stop tuning
> if you see a set of bad heads?  I make the car run as good as I can. And
> I tell the guy he's got a set of bad heads.  Such is the level of the
> work around here.
> I tune for the top of the hill bu doing as much of the WOT runs as I can
> in high gear.  Sometimes with a light turbo car I'll drop the trans
> gear.  On an inertial dyno a light turbo car will sometimes make more
> boost than it would on the street, and you end up tuning in areas that
> you don't generally see on the street.  It depends on whether the
> owner's likely to be using the car for long runs at high speed or short
> stoplight type blasts.
> Shannen
>


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From mikebilton at freeuk.com  Fri Dec 20 16:05:56 2002
From: mikebilton at freeuk.com (Mike Bilton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:05:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Bosch Motronic Fiat comms
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2A54F.59CB72A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

I've been looking into this for sometime, and thought perhaps someone on =
this group could point mein the right direction.=20

I'm trying to set up a system such that I can communicate with the ECU =
on my Fiat Coupe (1997 20V turbo), using a laptop, a suitable interface =
and home written software. This is to enable me to read fault codes, =
look at engine parameters etc.

The ECU is described as a Bosch Motronic 2.10.4 0 261 204 483 46476758 =
XEBM4483. The interface is a bi-directional K line using 'standard bosch =
protocol'.=20

I think I understand the K-line hardware side (I have the baud rates =
etc) and it looks relatively easy to make something up. The difficulty =
comes in knowing what codes/ commands are sent to the ECU to get a =
response.

I've had a lot of searches on the internet and come over things like =
OBD, OBD II, CAN, but I'm confused as to which, if any, apply to this =
car/system. What is the 'standard bosch protocol' my workshop manual =
refers to?

Can anybody tell me where I can find the necessary information, if it is =
in fact available,

Many Thanks

Mike Bilton

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2A54F.59CB72A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Hi,


 


I've been looking into this for =
sometime, and=20
thought perhaps someone on this group could point mein the right =
direction.=20



 


I'm trying to set up a system such that =
I can=20
communicate with the ECU on my Fiat Coupe (1997 20V turbo), using a =
laptop, a=20
suitable interface and home written software. This is to enable me to =
read fault=20
codes, look at engine parameters etc.


 


The ECU is described as a Bosch Motronic 2.10.4 0 261 204 483 =
46476758=20
XEBM4483. The interface is a bi-directional K line using 'standard bosch =

protocol'. 


 


I think I understand the K-line hardware =
side (I=20
have the baud rates etc) and it looks relatively easy to make something =
up. The=20
difficulty comes in knowing what codes/ commands are sent to the ECU to =
get a=20
response.


 


I've had a lot=20
of searches on the internet and come over things like OBD, OBD II, CAN, =
but I'm=20
confused as to which, if any, apply to this car/system. What is the =
'standard=20
bosch protocol' my workshop manual refers to?


 


Can anybody tell=20
me where I can find the necessary information, if it is in fact=20
available,


 


Many=20
Thanks


 


Mike=20
Bilton


------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2A54F.59CB72A0--


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From st28 at gmx.net  Fri Dec 20 16:07:03 2002
From: st28 at gmx.net (Stephan Helbig)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:07:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Hexfile Map Structures
Message-ID: 

Hi John,

Indeed I have only one file where I can say it must be DAMOS structure.
The other files I have are all of some different format. They are
embedded in the programme code & sometimes they are not. 
Now as there seem to be no markers at the beginning there must be an
algorythm that defines what is a map and what is programming code as
there also are programmes which can extract the maps within programming
code.
Unfortunately I don't have *any* experience with this. What would you
recommend as a general guideline to search for? I can't find the needle
in the hay when I don't know how this needle looks like.
I've seen screenshots of programmes that sparated the maps. There seemed
to be some structure like this:
(??)(y-marker numbers)(y-values)(??)(x-marker numbers)(x-values)(map
values). Y-markers tell you how many numbers you need to set on the
y-axis, then the y-values follow and then there is a number which I
cannot assign to anything. The rest is as with the y-axis...

As for the processors: Bosch uses many different types, so there's no
general answer. I  my case it's a Siemens B57656 and B58298. Will this
take me further?!? Those two types of processors come from the same type
of ECU. So if Bosch uses them with the same software and different
processors, I guess those two must be independent from each other.

Stephan

Ioannis Andrianakis schrieb:
> 
> Bosch maps are not always in DAMOs format. There is usually a clear
> distinction between the program code area and the data-map area. What you
> see as program code between maps is usually smaller maps, even 1 byte maps.
> There is no map marker value at the beginning of each map and maps are not
> stored one after the other. You must find them by looks and testing. The
> more experience you gain the easier it will be.
> Regards,
> John Andrianakis

-- 
My Homepage:
http://www.e-ger-translation.de
http://people.freenet.de/sthl/
--



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From mxk0840 at ritvax.isc.rit.edu  Fri Dec 20 16:07:04 2002
From: mxk0840 at ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Milosz K.)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:07:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM EST HEI Pinout
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_kWTrblfdVZq7HNtnA0CnIQ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Does anyone have or know where I can find the pinout for a large cap EST HEI? I need to mate this to splice into a harness I don't know which wire does what on the 4 connector coming out of the distributor.

Cheers,
M.

--Boundary_(ID_kWTrblfdVZq7HNtnA0CnIQ)
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Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT









Does anyone have or know where I can find the 
pinout for a large cap EST HEI? I need to mate this to splice into a harness I 
don't know which wire does what on the 4 connector coming out of the 
distributor.


 


Cheers,


M.


--Boundary_(ID_kWTrblfdVZq7HNtnA0CnIQ)--

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From wingell at charter.net  Fri Dec 20 16:35:05 2002
From: wingell at charter.net (Joshua Wingell)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:35:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] More power from a blown head gasket
Message-ID: 

Mike wrote:
>Thats where your raped ape got its extra power, from
>water in the chambers - enough to perhaps increase CR
>(effectively) and reduce pinging for the short period of
>time,

That did occur to me.  However, my spark plugs weren't 
green from the coolant.  And I was spewing a lot of 
coolant from the oerflow.  My coolant hoses were 
definitely pressurized by the combustion.  I think that 
the major flow was out of the combustion chamber, not 
into. 

Also, since I was running 7% richer than normal and a 
degree less timing than I normally do, I wouldn't have 
been taking advantage of the water in the combustion 
chamber.

You need to advance timing, run more boost, or run leaner 
to take advantage of water injection.  I was running less 
boost, richer, and retarded timing.

Oh, here is a jpg of the datalog.  I also have a CSV I can 
share.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NewEngDSM/files/12_52_112datalog.jpg

>Do you normally run a wet manifold ?

I assume that you mean water injection?  I have run it in 
the past.  But I wasn't impressed with the results that 
the silly spearco kit gave me.  I'll probably build a DIY 
kit sometime in the next year, though, if only to spray my 
rather small 18" FMIC.

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From jaredryan at compuserve.com  Fri Dec 20 16:36:48 2002
From: jaredryan at compuserve.com (Jared Ryan)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:36:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM EST HEI Pinout
Message-ID: 

On Thursday 19 December 2002 04:20, Milosz K. wrote:
> Does anyone have or know where I can find the pinout for a large cap ES=
T
> HEI? I need to mate this to splice into a harness I don't know which wi=
re
> does what on the 4 connector coming out of the distributor.
>
> Cheers,
> M.

Large-cap GM HEI EST, 7-pin module.  There should be letters on the four-=
wire=20
connector.  Sorry, the book I have doesn't show wire colors and the wires=
 in=20
my car are quite dirty.

Pin A - pin E of module to EST pin on ECM
Pin B - pin R of module to REFERENCE pin on ECM
Pin C - pin B of module to BYPASS pin on ECM
Pin D - module ground to ground pin on ECM


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From goat at notevil.net  Fri Dec 20 16:41:29 2002
From: goat at notevil.net (Guncotton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:41:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM EST HEI Pinout
Message-ID: 

Thanks...that's exactly what I was looking for

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jared Ryan" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM EST HEI Pinout


On Thursday 19 December 2002 04:20, Milosz K. wrote:
> Does anyone have or know where I can find the pinout for a large cap EST
> HEI? I need to mate this to splice into a harness I don't know which wire
> does what on the 4 connector coming out of the distributor.
>
> Cheers,
> M.

Large-cap GM HEI EST, 7-pin module.  There should be letters on the
four-wire
connector.  Sorry, the book I have doesn't show wire colors and the wires in
my car are quite dirty.

Pin A - pin E of module to EST pin on ECM
Pin B - pin R of module to REFERENCE pin on ECM
Pin C - pin B of module to BYPASS pin on ECM
Pin D - module ground to ground pin on ECM


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From goat at notevil.net  Fri Dec 20 16:42:26 2002
From: goat at notevil.net (Guncotton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:42:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM EST HEI Pinout
Message-ID: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jared Ryan" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM EST HEI Pinout


On Thursday 19 December 2002 04:20, Milosz K. wrote:
> Does anyone have or know where I can find the pinout for a large cap EST
> HEI? I need to mate this to splice into a harness I don't know which wire
> does what on the 4 connector coming out of the distributor.
>
> Cheers,
> M.

Large-cap GM HEI EST, 7-pin module.  There should be letters on the
four-wire
connector.  Sorry, the book I have doesn't show wire colors and the wires in
my car are quite dirty.

Pin A - pin E of module to EST pin on ECM
Pin B - pin R of module to REFERENCE pin on ECM
Pin C - pin B of module to BYPASS pin on ECM
Pin D - module ground to ground pin on ECM


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 17:14:21 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:14:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] More power from a blown head gasket
Message-ID: 

At 11:29 AM 12/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Mike wrote:
>>Thats where your raped ape got its extra power, from
>>water in the chambers - enough to perhaps increase CR
>>(effectively) and reduce pinging for the short period of
>>time,
>
>That did occur to me.  However, my spark plugs weren't 
>green from the coolant.  And I was spewing a lot of 
>coolant from the oerflow.  My coolant hoses were 
>definitely pressurized by the combustion.  I think that 
>the major flow was out of the combustion chamber, not 
>into.

Well, there are a heap of assumptions in that observation.
Was the coolant there long enough and onto the plug to make
it green and could it also have been burned off. Also on
a downstroke wouldnt some collant get into the chamber,
maybe not enough to make the plug green or be seen as
a disproportionate loss etc etc

>Also, since I was running 7% richer than normal and a 
>degree less timing than I normally do, I wouldn't have 
>been taking advantage of the water in the combustion 
>chamber.

Another set of assumptions, inthe chaotic conditions
of a gasket failure you may well have had all sorts
of stratified charge conditions with air/fuel in the
galleries on part of the ignition cycle and any other
quirky dynamics resulting from discontinuous operation.

>You need to advance timing, run more boost, or run leaner 
>to take advantage of water injection.  I was running less 
>boost, richer, and retarded timing.

mmmm, Another set of assumptions, based on disparate collections
of segments of other's experiences (inferred probably).
Adding a mist which cools
charge ahead of a flame front may have other benefits. I've seen
a couple of engines (Normally aspirated) which had water injection,
the chamber was remarkably clean - negligible carbon deposits -
whereas over the same period non WI had terrible deposits !

Who knows what other dynamics were occuring in that split second
before/during/after the gasket blew - I definitely noticed an
increase in oooompf when mine went between chambers 2 & 3 which
really surprised me - it too was naturally aspirated, puzzled me
ever since ~`:o

Theres a chap called Pete on the yahoo nissans13 that built his
own and took some trouble to select nozzles, AFM trigger, boost
trigger etc etc Worth looking up the archives on that group,

rgds

mike



>Oh, here is a jpg of the datalog.  I also have a CSV I can 
>share.
>
>http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NewEngDSM/files/12_52_112datalog.jpg
>
>>Do you normally run a wet manifold ?
>
>I assume that you mean water injection?  I have run it in 
>the past.  But I wasn't impressed with the results that 
>the silly spearco kit gave me.  I'll probably build a DIY 
>kit sometime in the next year, though, if only to spray my 
>rather small 18" FMIC.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From nwester at eidnet.org  Fri Dec 20 17:37:40 2002
From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:37:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Flame front speeds have more to do with AFR, density (fuel), compression
ratio, and flow turbulence, but the slower the burn--the greater the chance
of abnormal combustion. The faster the burn, the more chance of detonation
or that peak cylinder pressures are occuring too soon.

To say that low octane and high octane burn at exactly the same "flame
speed" would say that it wouldn't matter which you use.

Lyndon
Westers Garage


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From bart at teamgodspeed.com  Fri Dec 20 18:03:33 2002
From: bart at teamgodspeed.com (Bart Grande)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:03:33 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] injecotr flow bench plans needed.
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C2A80F.183E5830
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Good Morning!...

I am in search of someone with knowledge or plans on how to build a =
injector flow bench tester. I imagining 4 or 8 burets with a pump and =
regulator and fuel rail and an electronic method of pulsing the =
injectors. I will want to be able to adjust the pulse width for the =
injectors so I can test many different setting. I have plans and such =
for the mechanical end of the project, I just need some help ont he =
electronic end. I have searched the archives with no luck. Thanks for =
the help!


Peace.......................BartG


GodSpeed Dyno Works
www.teamgodspeed.com=20

------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C2A80F.183E5830
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Good Morning!...


 


I am in search of someone with =
knowledge or plans=20
on how to build a injector flow bench tester. I imagining 4 or 8 burets =
with a=20
pump and regulator and fuel rail and an electronic method of pulsing the =

injectors. I will want to be able to adjust the pulse width for the =
injectors so=20
I can test many different setting. I have plans and such for the =
mechanical=20
end of the project, I just need some help ont he electronic end. I =
have=20
searched the archives with no luck. Thanks for the help!


 


 


Peace.......................BartG


 


 


GodSpeed Dyno Works


www.teamgodspeed.com =
;


------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C2A80F.183E5830--


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 18:06:41 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:06:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 10:30 AM 12/20/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Flame front speeds have more to do with AFR, density (fuel), compression
>ratio, and flow turbulence, but the slower the burn--the greater the chance
>of abnormal combustion. The faster the burn, the more chance of detonation
>or that peak cylinder pressures are occuring too soon.

We are not talking abnormal combustion, detonation is a meeting of
flame fronts, one comes from the spark ignition - the other comes
from that region of the chamber that spontaneously ignites due
to either an instantaneous rise in temperature or pressure.

Sure for any one fuel, AFR is an issue - but for the *one* engine
we are not changing CR or fuel density (of all things) are we ?

>To say that low octane and high octane burn at exactly the same "flame
>speed" would say that it wouldn't matter which you use.

You see, I interpret and infer you are thinking that detonation
is an issue of some problem with flame propogation - no, refer
the previous para and definitions of detonation.

Its when flame fronts collide and produce severe shock waves
that cause all sorts of problems.

Try to picture two situations on an engine with equal AFR, CR,
fuel density etc But where they change only due to octane...

Situation one, low octane, low enough to cause detonation:-

Spark ignites fuel in direct proximity to plug,
flame front expands outwards from this region,
simultaneously piston is moving up bore (advance timing),
Spontaneous ignition at some point away from flame front from spark,
Flame fronts collide causing the ping sound etc

Situation two, high enough octane, all else as in Sit one equal:-

Spark ignites fuel indirect proximity to plug,
flame front expands outwards from this region,
simultaneously piston is moving up bore (same advance timing)
Initial flame front spreads unhinder
Rgds

Mike
Perth, Western Australia
Some power/auto stuff here:-  http://www.iinet.net.au/~erazmus


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 18:06:51 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:06:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] injecotr flow bench plans needed.
Message-ID: 

I used an SG3526N from some cig lighter inverters I used to
design in 88, its by unitrode but has second sources, a most
flexible chip - though I'd prefer these days to use a micro
with some timeout features and ramping as one thing I noticed
with some injectors that are marginal is they might work at
some PWM's but not others - so being able to ramp up and
down is of some interest in comparative testing,

rgds

Mike



At 10:03 AM 12/20/02 -0800, you wrote:
>   Good Morning!...     I have  searched the archives with no luck. Thanks
>for the help!     Peace.......................BartG     GodSpeed Dyno Works
>www.teamgodspeed.com  

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From turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 20 18:43:40 2002
From: turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com (Toyota Supra)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:43:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] More power from a blown head gasket  
Message-ID: 

i too have experienced this, its funny, it once did it so many times in a 
year before i got the problem sorted through, i could always tell when it 
was about to happen, because of the car running better.

i've always thought that it had something to do with my car being able to 
run a bit more timing. if you figure it out, let us know

-j







To :
diy_efi at diy-efi.org

Subject :
Re: [Diy_efi] More power from a blown head gasket




At 11:29 AM 12/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Mike wrote:
>>Thats where your raped ape got its extra power, from
>>water in the chambers - enough to perhaps increase CR
>>(effectively) and reduce pinging for the short period of
>>time,
>
>That did occur to me.  However, my spark plugs weren't green from the 
>coolant.  And I was spewing a lot of coolant from the oerflow.  My coolant 
>hoses were definitely pressurized by the combustion.  I think that the 
>major flow was out of the combustion chamber, not into.

Well, there are a heap of assumptions in that observation.
Was the coolant there long enough and onto the plug to make
it green and could it also have been burned off. Also on
a downstroke wouldnt some collant get into the chamber,
maybe not enough to make the plug green or be seen as
a disproportionate loss etc etc

>Also, since I was running 7% richer than normal and a degree less timing 
>than I normally do, I wouldn't have been taking advantage of the water in 
>the combustion chamber.

Another set of assumptions, inthe chaotic conditions
of a gasket failure you may well have had all sorts
of stratified charge conditions with air/fuel in the
galleries on part of the ignition cycle and any other
quirky dynamics resulting from discontinuous operation.

>You need to advance timing, run more boost, or run leaner to take advantage 
>of water injection.  I was running less boost, richer, and retarded timing.

mmmm, Another set of assumptions, based on disparate collections
of segments of other's experiences (inferred probably).
Adding a mist which cools
charge ahead of a flame front may have other benefits. I've seen
a couple of engines (Normally aspirated) which had water injection,
the chamber was remarkably clean - negligible carbon deposits -
whereas over the same period non WI had terrible deposits !

Who knows what other dynamics were occuring in that split second
before/during/after the gasket blew - I definitely noticed an
increase in oooompf when mine went between chambers 2 & 3 which
really surprised me - it too was naturally aspirated, puzzled me
ever since ~`:o

Theres a chap called Pete on the yahoo nissans13 that built his
own and took some trouble to select nozzles, AFM trigger, boost
trigger etc etc Worth looking up the archives on that group,

rgds

mike



>Oh, here is a jpg of the datalog.  I also have a CSV I can share.
>
>http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NewEngDSM/files/12_52_112datalog.jpg
>
>>Do you normally run a wet manifold ?
>
>I assume that you mean water injection?  I have run it in the past.  But I 
>wasn't impressed with the results that the silly spearco kit gave me.  I'll 
>probably build a DIY kit sometime in the next year, though, if only to 
>spray my rather small 18" FMIC.
>





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From eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com  Fri Dec 20 18:43:59 2002
From: eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com (Eric.Fahlgren)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:43:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 


> We are not talking abnormal combustion, detonation is a meeting of
> flame fronts, one comes from the spark ignition - the other comes
> from that region of the chamber that spontaneously ignites due
> to either an instantaneous rise in temperature or pressure.

Preignition and detonation are two distinct phenomenon.  Preignition
may precipitate detonation, but it is not necessary to produce it.
Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of end gasses in the
chamber, it has no flame front.

You guys really need to read some papers and books, start with
"The Background Of Detonation," NACA No. 93 by Stanwood Sparrow
and move on through the several dozen other papers specifically
detailing detonation and then read Ricardo and Heywood to put
it all together.

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From brian at dessent.net  Fri Dec 20 18:52:18 2002
From: brian at dessent.net (Brian Dessent)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:52:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] injecotr flow bench plans needed.
Message-ID: 


> injectors. I will want to be able to adjust the pulse width for the
> injectors so I can test many different setting. I have plans and such
> for the mechanical end of the project, I just need some help ont he
> electronic end. I have searched the archives with no luck. Thanks for
> the help!

I would use something like the the CA1524, which is designed for doing
closed-loop PWM controls, but you can just as easily attach a
potentiometer from V_ref to ground to create a voltage divider which is
used as the input control voltage.  This would allow a duty cycle of 0%
to about 95% with the turn of the knob (you'll need both A and B outputs
in parallel to get the DC >50%.)  However, the chip is designed for
switching power supplies and stuff, so its oscillator is usually run in
the tens to hundreds of kHz range, which is probably a lot faster than
what you want.  Let's see, the rated max values of the timing R and C
are 120k and 0.1uF, that comes out to a period of 12ms.  That would be
the longest you could expect, which seems pretty short for injectors, so
never mind.  Data sheet here if you're curious:
http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn1/fn1239/FN1239.pdf

Well, I'm sure you could do it with a 555 as well, look for some "555
cookbook" sites or books and I'm sure you'll find one.  The problem with
555s is that usually you don't get control of the duty cycle and the
period independently.  What might also work is running one 555 as an
astable multivibrator (i.e. a pulse stream) which triggers a second 555
(or other) that's configured as a one-shot, whose duration is varied by
your potentiometer.  This lets you control both the frequency and the
pulse width separately.  The down side is that you'd be controlling 
pulse width and not duty cycle.  The difference only really matters if
you intend to vary the frequency, which I don't see as being necessary. 
A 556 is two 555s in one package, BTW, so undoubtedly there's a circuit
to do just this floating around out there.

And of course you'll need to select a driver transistor of some kind. 
These days you can almost just pick any power MOSFET with sufficient
specs and not worry too much about the gate drive circuit.  Just make
sure that there's a protection diode in anti-parallel (anode to ground,
cathode to drain -- assuming low-side switching.)  Most power FETs have
such a diode integrated into the package.  You might also want to
consider one that's descibed as "logic level" which usually means that
5V is enough to fully turn it on.  Suggest copying whatever the
Megasquirt folks did for their drivers if any of this is unclear.

Brian

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From schaffer at vkma.tu-graz.ac.at  Fri Dec 20 18:53:39 2002
From: schaffer at vkma.tu-graz.ac.at (Schaffer Klaus Maria)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:53:39 -0300
Subject: AW: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve? ---> a few words about knock ;-)
Message-ID: 

Hi guys!

A hard fight about knock last days ;-). I hope the mind has been =
qietened.
My opinion and the opinion of the most engine researchers today:

The reason for knock is, that at the beginning of inflammation (ignition =
is a little bit earlier) the pressure in the whole burning chamber rises =
cause of the higher bulk density of the hot burnt gas. The higher =
pressure increases the energy level of the residuary unburnt =
air/fuel-mixture to a value at which selfignition will start.
There are some ways to occur the knock problematic:

1) Nonprogressive: Reduce the compression ratio: this will reduce the =
energy level of the air/fuel-mixture at the time of inflammation - so =
there is more space between increase of pressure and exceed of the =
critical energy level.

2) Nonprogressiv too: use a fuel with lower propensity to self ignition =
- a fuel with higher RON. Without any other additives this fuel have not =
more heat value and not really a different flame speed. Maybe a better =
evaporation.

3) Progressiv: you have to ensure that the flame reaches the unburnt =
regions of the chamber befor selfignition starts. This could be reached:
a) the mechanical way: make a good design: short ways for the flame - =
central spark plug - small bore, high stroke (which is limited by piston =
speed and therefor accompanied by lower speedlimit and lethargic =
response).
b) the thermodynamic way: you have to increase the flame speed (yes =
increase !!!). The most significant impact to flame speed is the =
turbulent kinetic energy of the air/fuel mixture. Near others, the best =
way to increase the turbulence is to design the intake ports in a way =
that results in a "tumble" flow inside of the cylinder. When this will =
be done good, it costs you a little bit of filling but that will be =
overbalanced by better efficiency.

(I ignored the ordinary knock phenomen of selfignition at hot surfaces - =
should be easier to understand)

Closing the circle I started last week:

Newer engine concepts use the "bad" selfignition for better emissions: =
burning all the fuel by selfignition at the end of compression stroke =
without spark results in a nearly zero emission engine cycle (the =
critical emission part NOx needs time to formation which will not be =
available in such a combustion concept). In the self ignition engine =
(HCCI - homogeneous charge compression ignition) the inflammation starts =
in the whole combustion chamber at the same time. It results also in =
high pressure rising rates (with could be heard ;-). This cycle is very =
hard to control. Best control mechanism is EGR with EGR-rates more than =
50% (the system works only at part loads which are important to the =
emissions measurement at the approbation). This high EGR-Rates could =
only be generated in a fast way with adequat valve timing as "internal =
EGR". Variable valve train design is necessary for such an engine. For =
the controlling of this engine concepts an onboard heat release rate =
calculator will be needed. For the calculation of the heat release rate =
we need a low cost incylinder pressure sensor.
I'm confident that in at least 5 years there will be such a pressure =
transducer on the market and we can start a DIY-heat release rate =
calculator project which enables us to optimize the ignition advance as =
we can do it on the fuel side with the DIY-WB today.

			--- so long --- and merry christmas, klaus.

--=20
************************************************************
 klaus maria schaffer
 Institute of Internal Combustion Engines & Thermodynamics
 University of Technology, Graz - Austria
 A-8010 GRAZ, Kopernikusgasse 24/II
------------------------------------------------------------=20
 email: schaffer at vkma.tu-graz.ac.at
 phone: +43-316-873-7724
 fax:   +43-316-873-7712
************************************************************
  =20

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Fri Dec 20 19:13:19 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:13:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 10:30 AM 12/20/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Flame front speeds have more to do with AFR, density (fuel), compression
>ratio, and flow turbulence, but the slower the burn--the greater the chance
>of abnormal combustion. The faster the burn, the more chance of detonation
>or that peak cylinder pressures are occuring too soon.

We are not talking abnormal combustion, detonation is a meeting of
flame fronts, one comes from the spark ignition - the other comes
from that region of the chamber that spontaneously ignites due
to either an instantaneous rise in temperature or pressure.

Sure for any one fuel, AFR is an issue - but for the *one* engine
we are not changing CR or fuel density (of all things) are we ?

>To say that low octane and high octane burn at exactly the same "flame
>speed" would say that it wouldn't matter which you use.

You see, I interpret and infer you are thinking that detonation
is an issue of some problem with flame propogation - no, refer
the previous para and definitions of detonation.

Its when flame fronts collide and produce severe shock waves
that cause all sorts of problems.

Try to picture two situations on an engine with equal AFR, CR,
fuel density etc But where they change only due to octane...

Situation one, low octane, low enough to cause detonation:-

Spark ignites fuel in direct proximity to plug,
flame front expands outwards from this region,
simultaneously piston is moving up bore (advance timing),
Spontaneous ignition at some point away from flame front from spark,
Flame fronts collide causing the ping sound etc

Situation two, high enough octane, all else as in Sit one equal:-

Spark ignites fuel indirect proximity to plug,
flame front expands outwards from this region,
simultaneously piston is moving up bore (same advance timing)
Initial flame front spreads unhindered and collapes at walls,

In both cases above the flame front speed is the same, however
in situation one the 1st flame front collided with another flame
front from a spontaneous ignition somewhere else in the chamber,
if the chamber was clean its detonation, it if was dirty then
its pre-ignition from say a hot carbon deposit.

Also you might want to read the faq's Brian and I listed earlier
on this topic,

rgds

Mike
PS: Seems like this email went off before completion, sorry dont
know what happened (MS), this is the complete one, doh.


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From true at ItsYourDomain.com  Fri Dec 20 19:13:47 2002
From: true at ItsYourDomain.com (Nick Starai)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:13:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] dyno comparison
Message-ID: 


So I think we pretty thoroughly discussed the differences between inertial
and brake dyno's. So other then the friction loses, and possibly the
software, I don't see a huge disadvantage to using an intertial OTHER then
the 4 gas exhaust analyzer mentioned several times. (assuming the inertial
has the LOAD CONTROL OPTION). Now what I'm wondering is if it's a function
of law as to why you can't use a 4-gas on an inertial or is it that the
manufacturers simply don't integrate the device into their dyno's. Could
you simply purchase a 4gas analyzer and datalog it while using an
intertial with load control and get the same effect? It just seems to me
that the major advantage of the eddy was the 4gas. Also, I'm referring to
pump gas, so the extra hp you may will extract from a racing engine
on the eddy-brake would be negligable on a street car. (for me at least)

Nick Starai



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From rjp at teknology.net  Fri Dec 20 19:29:14 2002
From: rjp at teknology.net (Phil)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:29:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] dyno comparison
Message-ID: 

<>

Yep, that is what we successfully do here.

-Phil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Starai" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 2:17 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] dyno comparison


>
> So I think we pretty thoroughly discussed the differences between
inertial
> and brake dyno's. So other then the friction loses, and possibly the
> software, I don't see a huge disadvantage to using an intertial OTHER
then
> the 4 gas exhaust analyzer mentioned several times. (assuming the
inertial
> has the LOAD CONTROL OPTION). Now what I'm wondering is if it's a
function
> of law as to why you can't use a 4-gas on an inertial or is it that the
> manufacturers simply don't integrate the device into their dyno's. Could
> you simply purchase a 4gas analyzer and datalog it while using an
> intertial with load control and get the same effect? It just seems to me
> that the major advantage of the eddy was the 4gas. Also, I'm referring to
> pump gas, so the extra hp you may will extract from a racing engine
> on the eddy-brake would be negligable on a street car. (for me at least)
>
> Nick Starai
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 19:33:55 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:33:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] dyno comparison
Message-ID: 

--- Nick Starai  wrote:

> I don't see a huge disadvantage to using an
> intertial OTHER then the 4 gas exhaust analyzer
> mentioned several times. (assuming the inertial
> has the LOAD CONTROL OPTION).

And has been recently calibrated (they don't
self-calibrate).

> Now what I'm wondering is if it's a function
> of law as to why you can't use a 4-gas on an
> inertial or is it that the manufacturers simply
> don't integrate the device into their dyno's.

It takes generally over one second for the exhaust
gases to stabilize at a given load/speed site and be
read cleanly by the analyzer.  Can't happen on an
inertial dyno.

> It just seems to me that the major advantage of the
> eddy was the 4gas.

And again, the BIGGEST one is being able to provide a
full load and get an accurate reading.

> Also, I'm referring to pump gas,

Tuning is tuning, regardless of the gas you're using. 
99% of the machines I have tuned have been on pump gas.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From diy-efi at t-n-e.com  Fri Dec 20 20:03:18 2002
From: diy-efi at t-n-e.com (Phil Hunter)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:03:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EGT detonation sensor (was Re: Timing Advance Curve?)
Message-ID: 

> A poor mans detonation sensor for each cylinder could be as
> simple as an EGT sensor correctly positioned without the
> mechanical noise issue prevalent with peizo sensors,
> the cost of pyrometers with associated electronics could
> well be less than the highest spec piezo sensors and
> simultaneuously provide exhaust gas temperature - nice :-)

I'm not sure how to read this, but if you're thinking of using
just one EGT sensor for several cylinders, I don't see how, given
typical EGT probe response times of about a second. Even if
you meant 1 probe per cylinder, you still may be "asking for
trouble" depending...

Consider the hypothetical situation of a step change in temp from
0 to 1000*. You might think that if the response time is 1 second,
in 1 second you'd read 1000*, but that's not the case. The
definition for one "tao" is 63.2% of the temp difference, so
after 1 second you'd only read 632*, the next second would be
63% of the difference (1000 - 632), so after 2 seconds you'd read
632 + 232 = 864*. After 3 tao's you'd be within 10% (actually 5%)
at 950*, but it'd take 5 seconds to get a reading accurate within
1% at 993*.

Folks familiar w/ resistor-capacitor networks will recognize the
curve immediately.

Closer to "real world", a step change from 900 to 1000*,
immediately you'd be within 10%, after only 1 tao you'd be within
5% at 963*, in 3 tao's you'd be within 1%.

So we can see that the bigger the delta in temp, the bigger the
error and the longer you have to wait to get an accurate reading.
I don't have typical temp deltas for detonation, they s/b large
and easy to detect but even if you detected knock within 1 second,
that'd still be 50 "hammer" strokes per cylinder for an engine
spinning 6K RPM.

My point of all this is that there may be more to getting good
readings from EGT thermocouples than folks may have thought of,
a lot depends on "where you've been" and "where you're going",
absolutes, deltas and taos. ;)

Personally, ion-sensing is still the way to go IMO.

HTH's
philh
(digest)

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From brian.j.geddes at intel.com  Fri Dec 20 20:16:53 2002
From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:16:53 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Speed Density fueling and throttle position
Message-ID: 

All -

Good discussions on a number of different subjects lately.  I'm not sure =
what spurred this flurry of conversation, but it's been fun to read.  :)

I've got a question about the role throttle position plays (or doesn't =
play) in speed density based fueling computations.  I've heard from a =
few different sources that overall fueling must be reduced slightly at =
part-throttle for a given manifold pressure in order to maintain the =
same A/F ratio as full throttle.  Is this true?  If so, why?

My thoughts:  The throttle is restricts the flow of air from the intake =
system (post-compressor if applicable) into the intake manifold.  If the =
rate of air comsumption of the engine is greater than the rate of flow =
allowed by the throttle, then manifold pressure will drop, the cylinders =
will get a smaller mass of air, and the engine makes less power.  But it =
seems to me that if the throttle is open to the point where pressure is =
equal on both the intake and manifold sides, opening the throttle more =
won't have any effect.  It's the pressure in the manifold that matters, =
not the throttle position. =20

I'm by no means an expert, so I'm sure there's something I'm not taking =
into account.  But my reasoning tells me that as long as your speed =
density calculation are based off of post-throttle pressure, the =
throttle position doesn't matter.  Please, tell me why I'm wrong!  :)

Thanks,
- Brian GEddes

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From nwester at eidnet.org  Fri Dec 20 21:02:25 2002
From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:02:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 


Ok--so you're saying that flame speed, burn rates are identical between
low octane and high octane fuels, correct ?

Lyndon.


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From patc at opposition.tv  Fri Dec 20 21:39:57 2002
From: patc at opposition.tv (Patrick Cahill)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:39:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Heehee, sorry about that, I didn't mean it as an insult but as I am new to
this list I was unaware of your background. The way the post was worded it
sounded like you were a little lost.

But do you really fit MoTeC to DFR/X's? We have since gone away from using
them as they are too simplistic for some of the stuff we were getting into
(yes, even the M800's) and are now using EFI Technology. V8Supercar over
here just went to the M48 as a control ECU but that was done more through
costs. What we found with the more exotic Nations Cup stuff (basically N-GT)
was that the features and flexibility just didn't exist. We were going to
start using the new Bosch Motronic MS3.X ECU's until we saw the price. But
even they were a bit too simple.

Hell, we (nor MoTeC) can't even get an M4 to run an F3 engine properly.


I have been a Motec dealer for quite a few years and before that spent a lot
of
time straightening out what other dealers tried to do. My eyes are pretty
sharp.. So thanks for the offer but I will pass. All that data belongs to
the
customer as I had said before. The Miata has an M4 with advanced tuning and
logging. You can data log the WBO2 with it being activated. I have to find a
very large trend before I change the fueling at the track compared to what I
get
on the dyno. I generally look at the O2 readings and if they are incorrect
or
different from the dyno look further into the data for the why are they
different and fix that.

This Miata is sort of the bottom of the heap compared to the usual project
to be
honest. I am finishing up a Motec dash and M48 system for a Porsche 962 this
week. and usually work on vintage GTP stuff for the most part. The
occasional
Cosworth DFR/DFX in open wheel cars as well. Next project is to sort out a
2002
Porsche GT3R dash that has to run in the Rolex 24 at daytona then on to a
1998
Buick indy lights car that needs a tune up.. Then fly out to Dallas to tune
the
962. My company also designs and manufactures custom slide throttles for
race
engines. Have won the Rolex 3 or 4 times with them. One year we had 5 of the
top. F
7 cars running them.

It might beg the question do you have any maps you want me to look at...
Dave


Patrick Cahill wrote:

> I can back up what Dave said about timing on these things. They are quite
> amazing in terms of efficiency and detonation resistance. The Mazda motor
> that I referred to in a post from a couple of days ago as being detonation
> proof was a 1.6L Miata engine and it is actually the test mule at MoTeC
> right here in Melbourne. I have seen it run 40plus deg timing on pump fuel
> without pre igniting. As Dave said, it just loses power. I can only put it
> down to an excellent cylinder head design as the main factor.
>
> As a consequence of this, they do like to run on the lean side and I
> wouldn't bother with anymore than 32deg on any Miata. What MoTeC does your
> mate have? If it has the internal logging and lambda upgrades, these can
be
> an easy way to tune on the run so to speak.
>
> I have a great deal of experience with all MoTeC systems (V8Supercar to
F3)
> and would be happy to look at your map for you if you would like a second
> set of eyes.
>
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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Fri Dec 20 22:26:15 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:26:15 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

I know this will ruffle a few feathers but I'm NOT running a Motec, unless
its free, installed free and tuned to my liking.. FREE.
I don't believe that Motec and Rotaries go together very well.
Its not 100% confirmed yet, but looks as if we will run a Mircotech.

BTW you post below.. Tops.. Cheers for that.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 21/12/02 1:20 AM Dave Dahlgren wrote

> Sure run a motec in alpha n mode. do all the programing you can at less boost
> but fill in all the tps mapping and then extrapolate the fuel correction for
> boost from the trend you saw at lower boost.. Go to the track and slowly raise
> the boost while data logging to make sure your extrapolated fuel is correct.
> Of
> course you have to fill in the timing map with something sensible to begin
> with
> as well before you raise the boost. We have a customer that has a 13b that
> makes
> just shy of 800 hp at 18 lbs boost on gas.. and we are looking to bump that up
> this winter to where you are headed.900 or so. 1000 is the target but I don't
> think we will see it even with alky. I would not bother with the nitrous on
> the
> dyno especially a chassis dyno.. too much too fast and it ought to be a
> separate
> system anyway.


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From true at ItsYourDomain.com  Fri Dec 20 22:26:26 2002
From: true at ItsYourDomain.com (Nick Starai)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:26:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] dyno comparison
Message-ID: 


> --- Nick Starai  wrote:
>
> > I don't see a huge disadvantage to using an
> > intertial OTHER then the 4 gas exhaust analyzer
> > mentioned several times. (assuming the inertial
> > has the LOAD CONTROL OPTION).
>
> And has been recently calibrated (they don't
> self-calibrate).

Yes.

> > Now what I'm wondering is if it's a function
> > of law as to why you can't use a 4-gas on an
> > inertial or is it that the manufacturers simply
> > don't integrate the device into their dyno's.
>
> It takes generally over one second for the exhaust
> gases to stabilize at a given load/speed site and be
> read cleanly by the analyzer.  Can't happen on an
> inertial dyno.

Sorry, I'm still confused. If I'm using a DynoJet 248 with RECENTLY
calibrated load control option....It cannot hold a load/speed site for
1 second or longer?

> > It just seems to me that the major advantage of the
> > eddy was the 4gas.
>
> And again, the BIGGEST one is being able to provide a
> full load and get an accurate reading.
>
> > Also, I'm referring to pump gas,
>
> Tuning is tuning, regardless of the gas you're using.
> 99% of the machines I have tuned have been on pump gas.

Of course; sorry, that wasn't my point.

Can someone recommend a 4gas analyzer?? I'm trying to figure out if I can
make use of one on my inertial. I don't understand why Adam says It
can't happen on an inertial -- eventhough It has the load control
option.....maybe I don't understand this option properly? Thanks.

> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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>


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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Fri Dec 20 22:40:09 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:40:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Speed Density fueling and throttle position
Message-ID: 

I've always wondered that too. I can see why a TPS would be necissary on a
MAF car, but the MAP should react fast enough, right?

I could see 2 situations where MAP would be the same, but TPS would be
different on a turbo car. One where the turbo is spooling with the throttle
totally open, another where the turbo was already spooled enough to produce
the same MAP at a lower TPS. I don't really see why different VE table would
be needed for that though, turbine inlet pressures couldn't be that
different between those two scenarios.

Grant Beaty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Geddes, Brian J" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 3:12 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Speed Density fueling and throttle position


All -

Good discussions on a number of different subjects lately.  I'm not sure
what spurred this flurry of conversation, but it's been fun to read.  :)

I've got a question about the role throttle position plays (or doesn't play)
in speed density based fueling computations.  I've heard from a few
different sources that overall fueling must be reduced slightly at
part-throttle for a given manifold pressure in order to maintain the same
A/F ratio as full throttle.  Is this true?  If so, why?

My thoughts:  The throttle is restricts the flow of air from the intake
system (post-compressor if applicable) into the intake manifold.  If the
rate of air comsumption of the engine is greater than the rate of flow
allowed by the throttle, then manifold pressure will drop, the cylinders
will get a smaller mass of air, and the engine makes less power.  But it
seems to me that if the throttle is open to the point where pressure is
equal on both the intake and manifold sides, opening the throttle more won't
have any effect.  It's the pressure in the manifold that matters, not the
throttle position.

I'm by no means an expert, so I'm sure there's something I'm not taking into
account.  But my reasoning tells me that as long as your speed density
calculation are based off of post-throttle pressure, the throttle position
doesn't matter.  Please, tell me why I'm wrong!  :)

Thanks,
- Brian GEddes

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 22:57:16 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:57:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] dyno comparison
Message-ID: 

--- Nick Starai  wrote:

> Sorry, I'm still confused. If I'm using a DynoJet
> 248 with RECENTLY calibrated load control
> option....It cannot hold a load/speed site for
> 1 second or longer?

You don't calibrate the load control off-site.  It's
the mass of the drum that has to be calibrated for. 
I'm not familiar enough with using WinPEP with the
eddy currect brake to know if they have a
self-calibration routine that can account for changes
in drum mass.  I know the standard intertial dynos
they make cannot be self-calibrated.

Let me be clear; I don't consider a dyno built as an
inertial dyno but having an eddy current brake added,
and functioning as an eddy current dyno, to BE an
inertial dyno.  That's sort of like taking out a
four-stroke ICE from a car, and replacing it with a
gas turbine, and then making sweeping comments about
how "cars" behave, engine-wise.  When you add an eddy
current brake, and are using the eddy current brake,
you're no longer using the dyno in any fashion
relating to inertial measurement.

When I saw "inertial dyno" in your comment, I assumed
you were talking about why it's not useful on a true
inertial dyne.

>> Tuning is tuning, regardless of the gas you're
>> using.  99% of the machines I have tuned have been
>> on pump gas.

> Of course; sorry, that wasn't my point.

No, no, just clarifying.  When I talk of a race
engine, in the motorcycle world, most often I mean a
blueprinted stock motor.  No special bells and
whistles, just time-honored honing of stock
components.  And the end results are very, very close
to what you would find after working on a stock
machine, right out of the box.  I just wanted to make
that clear, as I realized my comments about race
tuning could be misleading.  In my case, I'm referring
to nothing more than a well-built stock motor almost
all the time.

> I don't understand why Adam says It can't happen on
> an inertial -- eventhough It has the load control
> option...

I didn't.  See above.  :D

Operationally, it's not an inertial dyno any more.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From shurvinton at orange.net  Fri Dec 20 23:21:25 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:21:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Speed Density fueling and throttle position
Message-ID: 

A map 'could' react fast enough and in some cases does react where a TPSdot
algorithm might not. A great example of this was posted a couple of months
back by JC on the EFi-332 list.

But it does depend upon the whole system. If you have anything above a mild
cam the map signal shows a tendancy to bounce around as map sampling is not
'generally' time synched to the RPM signal, with the effect being prominent
at low RPM. To get around this you low pass filter the map, often with a
mechanical  RC filter. This filter will also filter out Mapdot transients to
a degree. Whether this is then extended to a sluggish response from the car
is another matter. Your car may weight 2600lbs and have a 30lb flywheel.
Mine is around half that and has a 10lb flywheel. A lean transient that the
first car wont even notice would cause a significant bog on the second.

But if you always sampled MAP at the same point relative to TDC I see no
reason (or have missed the reason) why you could not just use MAP. However
from the point of view of ECU design its much easier to add TPS than sort
that lot out.

Caveat: The more I read, study and play with enrichment strategies the more
I realise how tricky it is.

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Beaty" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Speed Density fueling and throttle position


> I've always wondered that too. I can see why a TPS would be necissary on a
> MAF car, but the MAP should react fast enough, right?
>



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From true at ItsYourDomain.com  Fri Dec 20 23:31:13 2002
From: true at ItsYourDomain.com (Nick Starai)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:31:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] dyno comparison
Message-ID: 


> Let me be clear; I don't consider a dyno built as an
> inertial dyno but having an eddy current brake added,
> and functioning as an eddy current dyno, to BE an
> inertial dyno.  That's sort of like taking out a
> four-stroke ICE from a car, and replacing it with a
> gas turbine, and then making sweeping comments about
> how "cars" behave, engine-wise.  When you add an eddy
> current brake, and are using the eddy current brake,
> you're no longer using the dyno in any fashion
> relating to inertial measurement.

Ah, ok, now I understand what you mean.

> > I don't understand why Adam says It can't happen on
> > an inertial -- eventhough It has the load control
> > option...
>
> I didn't.  See above.  :D
>
> Operationally, it's not an inertial dyno any more.

Yes, thanks for clearing that up.

Nick Starai


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From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Dec 21 00:48:00 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:48:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] dyno comparison
Message-ID: 

If you are tuning VE tables, the inertial dyno will tend to cause the
best tuned portion of the map to be  around the top of the table, that
is, where that MAP and RPM are highest.  The hardest areas to tune in
the inertial dyno are low acceleration areas.  Street driveability
tuning centers around these areas.  It's not that it's necessarily
difficult to operate on the dyno in a low acceleration situation, but it
can be tricky to operate there consistently as it requires repeated
acceleration/deceleration cycles.  Without a brake module, this could
take all day.  BTW, a good rule is to _never_ try to use your foot brake
with the inertial dyno.  In most cases they will be destroyed.

Dynojet doesn't offer an eddy current brake for the 248, and they do not
offer power measurement while using the air powered friction brake.  So
a Dynojet with a factory installed brake isn't the same as a braking
dyno.  It might be more appropriate to equate it to an uncalibrated
loading device.

It does serve a fair job of helping to work on the driveability portion
of your tune.  It can be very difficult to modulate throttle, watch
scantool data, and make calibration changes on the street.  The dj brake
can be set to hold a fixed load (called % braking),  a fixed rpm, or a
fixed wheelspeed.  Brake control isn't the fastest, but it can be used. 
The brake is also not substantial enough to maintain a set drum
speed/engine rpm when the engine being used produces large amounts of
torque.

If a person is able to do their own tuning, and they have a calibration
that they feel will be fine on the street, I sometimes mention that it
might save $$ to do as much of the driveability as they can before they
get to the dyno.  In this case it's good to make notes about any
problems or questionable portions of the tune so they can be checked on
the dyno.  

I have done complete from scratch tunes using a dj to do the brunt of
the work, then making final adjustments on the street.  Like I said, it
can get tricky.  Where it can help most is by allowing you to monitor
data in ways which you wouldn't normally be able to do.  For example,
you can fix the rpm and on a distributor equipped car change timing to
see the result on the dj's "braking" display.  It's crude, but it's a
helluva lot faster than trying different settings on the street.

Shannen

Nick Starai wrote:
> 
> So I think we pretty thoroughly discussed the differences between inertial
> and brake dyno's. So other then the friction loses, and possibly the
> software, I don't see a huge disadvantage to using an intertial OTHER then
> the 4 gas exhaust analyzer mentioned several times. (assuming the inertial
> has the LOAD CONTROL OPTION). Now what I'm wondering is if it's a function
> of law as to why you can't use a 4-gas on an inertial or is it that the
> manufacturers simply don't integrate the device into their dyno's. Could
> you simply purchase a 4gas analyzer and datalog it while using an
> intertial with load control and get the same effect? It just seems to me
> that the major advantage of the eddy was the 4gas. Also, I'm referring to
> pump gas, so the extra hp you may will extract from a racing engine
> on the eddy-brake would be negligable on a street car. (for me at least)
> 
> Nick Starai
> 
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sat Dec 21 02:08:26 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:08:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EGT detonation sensor (was Re: Timing Advance
Message-ID: 

Of course, I wouldnt select a slow response time, one would
need to be mindful of transient response...

good point,

rgds

mike


At 12:03 PM 12/20/02 -0800, you wrote:
>> A poor mans detonation sensor for each cylinder could be as
>> simple as an EGT sensor correctly positioned without the
>> mechanical noise issue prevalent with peizo sensors,
>> the cost of pyrometers with associated electronics could
>> well be less than the highest spec piezo sensors and
>> simultaneuously provide exhaust gas temperature - nice :-)
>
>I'm not sure how to read this, but if you're thinking of using
>just one EGT sensor for several cylinders, I don't see how, given
>typical EGT probe response times of about a second. Even if
>you meant 1 probe per cylinder, you still may be "asking for
>trouble" depending...
>
>Consider the hypothetical situation of a step change in temp from
>0 to 1000*. You might think that if the response time is 1 second,
>in 1 second you'd read 1000*, but that's not the case. The
>definition for one "tao" is 63.2% of the temp difference, so
>after 1 second you'd only read 632*, the next second would be
>63% of the difference (1000 - 632), so after 2 seconds you'd read
>632 + 232 = 864*. After 3 tao's you'd be within 10% (actually 5%)
>at 950*, but it'd take 5 seconds to get a reading accurate within
>1% at 993*.
>
>Folks familiar w/ resistor-capacitor networks will recognize the
>curve immediately.
>
>Closer to "real world", a step change from 900 to 1000*,
>immediately you'd be within 10%, after only 1 tao you'd be within
>5% at 963*, in 3 tao's you'd be within 1%.
>
>So we can see that the bigger the delta in temp, the bigger the
>error and the longer you have to wait to get an accurate reading.
>I don't have typical temp deltas for detonation, they s/b large
>and easy to detect but even if you detected knock within 1 second,
>that'd still be 50 "hammer" strokes per cylinder for an engine
>spinning 6K RPM.
>
>My point of all this is that there may be more to getting good
>readings from EGT thermocouples than folks may have thought of,
>a lot depends on "where you've been" and "where you're going",
>absolutes, deltas and taos. ;)
>
>Personally, ion-sensing is still the way to go IMO.
>
>HTH's
>philh
>(digest)
>
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sat Dec 21 02:09:16 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:09:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Just a minute are you saying that after there's spontaneous
combustion some way from the spark plug - theres no flame front
coming from it,

How can there be this combusition if there's no flame,

huh ?


And yes of course preignition and detonation are different source
phenomena, did you think I stated they were the same, I didnt.


rgds

mike



At 01:50 PM 12/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> We are not talking abnormal combustion, detonation is a meeting of
>> flame fronts, one comes from the spark ignition - the other comes
>> from that region of the chamber that spontaneously ignites due
>> to either an instantaneous rise in temperature or pressure.
>
>Preignition and detonation are two distinct phenomenon.  Preignition
>may precipitate detonation, but it is not necessary to produce it.
>Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of end gasses in the
>chamber, it has no flame front.
>
>You guys really need to read some papers and books, start with
>"The Background Of Detonation," NACA No. 93 by Stanwood Sparrow
>and move on through the several dozen other papers specifically
>detailing detonation and then read Ricardo and Heywood to put
>it all together.
>
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sat Dec 21 02:12:54 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:12:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

This was covered in in several posts recently by a couple of posters,

Its possible to contrive fuels to be either fast or slow burn at
either high or low octane, there is no causal relationship.

In fact a porsch tuner commented to me some time ago that the higher
octane fuels seem to burn faster,

Also there is no causal link between octane and energy levels, you
can have high octane - such as methanol with abysmally low (50%)
energy level of petrol and the opposite can also be arranged.

In summary, at the pump there is no direct causal relationship
between higher octane and burn rate, people seem to report different
perceptions - there is a faq on this as posted initially by Brian,

rgds

mike



At 02:02 PM 12/20/02 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Ok--so you're saying that flame speed, burn rates are identical between
>low octane and high octane fuels, correct ?
>
>Lyndon.
>
>
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sat Dec 21 02:19:20 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:19:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Speed Density fueling and throttle position
Message-ID: 

At 04:57 PM 12/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
>I've always wondered that too. I can see why a TPS would be necissary on a
>MAF car, but the MAP should react fast enough, right?

Not sure if its absolutely necessary, you can live without it but it
would be useful (at least) to have an idle switch off the throttle
so the ECU knows the throttle is not yet applied - for things like
finding a filtered base point for air flow,

rgds

mike


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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Sat Dec 21 02:21:30 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:21:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

or if youd like the simple sum of it all 

  detonation is a pressure wave that meets an oncoming flame front.and cuases 
an instintainous rise in combustion pressures. but these are small focused 
expolsions. 

  preignition is a secondary flame front propogated ahead of the spark 
ignited flame front that can lead to a instintaneous rise in combustion 
pressure cuasing knock or detonation. but it may not nessacaryly be the cuase 
of detonation. also preignition is usually trigged by sharp edges or hot 
spots of carbon,metal etc etc in the combustion chamber. 

  either way detonation is still bascially a very large spike in combustion 
pressure. however its more like a blast of C4 plastic explosive then a 
controlled properly burning flame front that produces usefull cylinder 
pressure.if youve been around for a while im sure youve heard about the 
inherent dangers of detonation and the damage it can do. you should however 
do some reading on ways to aviod it.    

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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Sat Dec 21 02:25:19 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:25:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Speed Density fueling and throttle position
Message-ID: 


yeah the map will respond fast. due yourself a favor go unhook an accelerator 
pump from a carberator and go for a drive.even with perfect tunning your 
gonna have issues with tip in throttle response and PE as well as AE ( the 
acelerator pump of sorts)

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sat Dec 21 02:34:08 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:34:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 09:29 PM 12/20/02 EST, you wrote:
>or if youd like the simple sum of it all 
>
>  detonation is a pressure wave that meets an oncoming flame front.and
cuases 
>an instintainous rise in combustion pressures. but these are small focused 
>expolsions. 

You mean after its ignited of course ?

Otherwise its just a reflection of the pressure wave from the initial
flame front arising from the spark ignition,

So to really clarify what is going on when there is detonation:-

-	Piston moving up bore
-	Spark, starts initial flame front from that source
-	Piston rising, pressure & temp going up everywhere
-	At some other point there is ignition and not from
	a carbon deposit, so its not 'preignition' per se but
	a defined 'detonation' ie It 'detonates'.
-	The second (or more) flame front from this other ignition
	point arising out of compression meets the first flame
	front and that is the 'bad thing' we've been talking about ;)

rgds

mike


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From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Dec 21 02:35:17 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:35:17 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Speed Density fueling and throttle position
Message-ID: 



"Geddes, Brian J" wrote:
> 
> All -
> 
> Good discussions on a number of different subjects lately.  I'm not sure what spurred this flurry of conversation, but it's been fun to read.  :)
> 
> I've got a question about the role throttle position plays (or doesn't play) in speed density based fueling computations.  I've heard from a few different sources that overall fueling must be reduced slightly at part-throttle for a given manifold pressure in order to maintain the same A/F ratio as full throttle.  Is this true?  If so, why?

conditions where MAP is less than baro generally indicate the mass of
air in the intake is less than it could be. How's that for indirection? 
For a given air: fuel ratio in mass units, if the mass of air decreases
so to should the fuel.
> 
> My thoughts:  The throttle is restricts the flow of air from the intake system (post-compressor if applicable) into the intake manifold.  If the rate of air comsumption of the engine is greater than the rate of flow allowed by the throttle, then manifold pressure will drop, the cylinders will get a smaller mass of air, and the engine makes less power.  But it seems to me that if the throttle is open to the point where pressure is equal on both the intake and manifold sides, opening the throttle more won't have any effect.  It's the pressure in the manifold that matters, not the throttle position.

Well the "and makes less power" is not so much part of the issue.  More
like "and needs less fuel to maintain the same mass air: mass fuel
ratio."

Quickly changing the mass of air in the intake alters the air:fuel ratio
within the intake.  Other things happen with this change.  Fuel can lose
energy and puddle.  If the manifold has enough volume, the mixture can
backfire and pop out the tb. Fuel is usually added (like an accelerator
pump) to cover these situations.  Fuel can be added based on TPS change,
or MAP change, or both.  

> 
> I'm by no means an expert, so I'm sure there's something I'm not taking into account.  But my reasoning tells me that as long as your speed density calculation are based off of post-throttle pressure, the throttle position doesn't matter.  Please, tell me why I'm wrong!  :)
Where in your fuel map do you use a TPS table?  You may not be wrong, or
you can be very wrong.  TPS can be used to calculate fuel delivery
without MAP.  The relationship between MAP and TPS doesn't even need to
be known.  The fuel map based on TPS and RPM can be worked out by trial
and error.

Shannen
> 
> Thanks,
> - Brian GEddes
> 
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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Sat Dec 21 02:56:41 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:56:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 


yeah i think thats more along the lines. one day soon im gonna figure out how 
to type whats in my head.thanx for providing the extra uummph to the topic.my 
reply was lacking a bit of elegance.

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From mos at sydney.net  Sat Dec 21 11:47:27 2002
From: mos at sydney.net (Mos)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:47:27 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Mike wrote:

> We are not talking abnormal combustion, detonation is a meeting of
> flame fronts, one comes from the spark ignition - the other comes
> from that region of the chamber that spontaneously ignites due
> to either an instantaneous rise in temperature or pressure.

According to [my understanding of] Charles Fayette Taylor the peak
cylinder pressures resulting from the meeting of two flame fronts coming
from two spark plugs are essentially the same as a single spark point (in
comparison to pressures of detonation).

The photographs of combustion in his book seem to show that there is no
such thing that one could describe as a flame front when detonation occurs
- the unburnt remainder ignites throughout. I must reread the relevant
chapters, but I think to say that detonation is a meeting of flame fronts
is innacurate.

Mos.

-- 
84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.




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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sat Dec 21 12:06:45 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:06:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Sure do and they run very nice as well. Not for nothing but does EFI tech use
'different milliseconds ' than a Motec?? What issues so you have with a motec
that an EFI tech solves?
As far as the F3 engine not running properly that has to be tuning or tuner no
matter what the credentials might be.. What issues do you have with it that are
not tuning related? Be specific, make me want to sell EFI tech by telling me
what it solves that can not be done with a Motec..

Reasons to sell EFI tech by features not possible with Motec...
A)
B)
C)
D)
E)

use as many as you need...
Dave

Patrick Cahill wrote:
> 
> But do you really fit MoTeC to DFR/X's? We have since gone away from using
> them as they are too simplistic for some of the stuff we were getting into
> (yes, even the M800's) and are now using EFI Technology. V8Supercar over
> here just went to the M48 as a control ECU but that was done more through
> costs. What we found with the more exotic Nations Cup stuff (basically N-GT)
> was that the features and flexibility just didn't exist. We were going to
> start using the new Bosch Motronic MS3.X ECU's until we saw the price. But
> even they were a bit too simple.
> 
> Hell, we (nor MoTeC) can't even get an M4 to run an F3 engine properly.
>


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sat Dec 21 12:13:07 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:13:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

You asked for a way I gave you one... If you can do it with another controller
that is fine as well. It is about how not with what brand controller. As far as
top or bottom posting.. who cares move on with life. BTW there are Motec's on
rotaries in the USA running in the 7's in 1/4 mile so I guess they don't know
about the problem LOL.. I guess you have to use rotary PW instead of piston
PW... :>) 
Why doesn't the Motec and Rotary work well together??? 
Please be specific..
Dave

Matt Porritt wrote:
> 
> I know this will ruffle a few feathers but I'm NOT running a Motec, unless
> its free, installed free and tuned to my liking.. FREE.
> I don't believe that Motec and Rotaries go together very well.
> Its not 100% confirmed yet, but looks as if we will run a Mircotech.
> 
> BTW you post below.. Tops.. Cheers for that.
> --
> Matt Porritt
> RC Race Cars and Supplies
> ICQ #22776813
> 
> On 21/12/02 1:20 AM Dave Dahlgren wrote
> 
> > Sure run a motec in alpha n mode. do all the programing you can at less boost
> > but fill in all the tps mapping and then extrapolate the fuel correction for
> > boost from the trend you saw at lower boost.. Go to the track and slowly raise
> > the boost while data logging to make sure your extrapolated fuel is correct.
> > Of
> > course you have to fill in the timing map with something sensible to begin
> > with
> > as well before you raise the boost. We have a customer that has a 13b that
> > makes
> > just shy of 800 hp at 18 lbs boost on gas.. and we are looking to bump that up
> > this winter to where you are headed.900 or so. 1000 is the target but I don't
> > think we will see it even with alky. I would not bother with the nitrous on
> > the
> > dyno especially a chassis dyno.. too much too fast and it ought to be a
> > separate
> > system anyway.
> 
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sat Dec 21 15:44:55 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:44:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Took me some 40 years, not quite right yet so an
'ambient tone' tends to creep in out of sheer frustration,
which isnt directed at the respondent, I might add ;)

rgds

mike


At 10:03 PM 20/12/2002 EST, you wrote:
>
yeah i think thats more along the lines. one day soon im gonna figure
out how 
>to type whats in my head.thanx for providing the extra uummph to the
topic.my 
>reply was lacking a bit of elegance.
>
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>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sat Dec 21 15:53:34 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:53:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 10:38 PM 21/12/2002 +1100, you wrote:
>According to [my understanding of] Charles Fayette Taylor the peak
>cylinder pressures resulting from the meeting of two flame fronts coming
>from two spark plugs are essentially the same as a single spark point (in
>comparison to pressures of detonation).

Well thats one description, probably a bit simplistic but it stands
to reason that if there is one spontaneous ignition point there
are likely to be others and this may well contribute to the 
recognition of a particular phenomena, there may be degrees of
this at many combinatorial levels and prior to that which is
easy to recognise. ie. The issue of so called 'silent detonation'
where the chamber conditions are marginal.
In any case a flame front is not likely to be a simple event, there's
a heap of dynamics going on so who really knows the details.

There must have been people who have used a transparent chamber,
high speed camera, feul additives and spectral analysis to
show up instantaneous pressure events through the whole gamut
of detonation like phenomena, but I aint seem em and know little
of their interpretation :(

>The photographs of combustion in his book seem to show that there is no
>such thing that one could describe as a flame front when detonation occurs
>- the unburnt remainder ignites throughout. I must reread the relevant
>chapters, but I think to say that detonation is a meeting of flame fronts
>is innacurate.

Well it would be an interesting bit of probability to find several
million molecules all deciding to grab their nearest partner at
the same time, no mexican wave... Seems a little bit far fetched,

What seems more likely is a collection of supernovas scattered
throughout the space intervening, with not-exactly purely coincident
events but close enough to agglomerate into messy combustion
affecting the flow of the intitial spark induced flame front,
best analogy I could come up with on Sat night without a date :(

rgds

mike




>Mos.
>
>-- 
>84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
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>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From phil at injec.com  Sat Dec 21 17:18:52 2002
From: phil at injec.com (Phil Lamovie)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:18:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Off Topic Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6334.0
Message-ID: 


Is it just me using Netscape 4.79 or are others
receiving impossibly long unwrapped messages
from list members using this "innovative" technology ?

I've had 4 or 5 now with this gem in the header.

"Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6334.0"

puzzled...

phil


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Sat Dec 21 17:26:21 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:26:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Off Topic Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6334.0
Message-ID: 

Edit -> preferences .. wrap lines to window width .. Works for me so far..
Dave

Phil Lamovie wrote:
> 
> Is it just me using Netscape 4.79 or are others
> receiving impossibly long unwrapped messages
> from list members using this "innovative" technology ?
> 
> I've had 4 or 5 now with this gem in the header.
> 
> "Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6334.0"
> 
> puzzled...
> 
> phil
>


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From nwester at eidnet.org  Sat Dec 21 18:48:19 2002
From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 15:48:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Well, that's nice it's been recently covered. This has been dealt with here
several years ago also.

> Its possible to contrive fuels to be either fast or slow burn at
> either high or low octane, there is no causal relationship<

That's because 90% of the test data out there is performed on a single
cylinder slow RPM
test engine used for octane tests. Saying there's no "casual" relationship
while stating
it's possible to be either fast or slow at either high or low just confirmed
my answer.

> In fact a porsch tuner commented to me some time ago that the higher
> octane fuels seem to burn faster<<

Ooooh....I'm glad you mentioned that. The TAG-Porsche team sought
fuel blends that would burn fast enough at 13+K RPM which allowed less than
.75 millisecond burn time. To quote "...the aromatic yielded higher flame
speed
than isoparaffins, and provided enhanced performance despite its lower
motor octane number...the low motor octane of the fuel required spark
advance
below MBT to avoid detonation, but the high energy of the fuel more than
compensated for this power loss..." end quote.

Distillation curves have everything to do with flame speed.

We've tested high and low research octanes in short stroke engines and
have also found more streetable torque and HP out of a fast burning fuel.
Now
we've got the other way to a methanol injection with long stroke V8 to move
this heavy car faster. Funny thing was that "HotRod" magazine came out with
an
article several years after we'd already played with 13to1 CR ratios and 87
octane.

> Also there is no causal link between octane and energy levels, you
> can have high octane - such as methanol with abysmally low (50%)
> energy level of petrol and the opposite can also be arranged.

**BUZZER**

Methanol is about 97 MON octane. But it's stoich is also around 6.5 to 1.
The secret is oxygen content, but this also requires jetting to nail down
best burn. We need to burn the most amount of fuel with the most amount
of oxygen for max power. Methanol will yield more energy in a combustion
chamber than gasoline ever will.
Methanols is still around 18,000 BTU's per lb.
Some of the best high octane of VP racing fuels for example, their
C16 racing gasoline is 18,786 BTU's per lb. Hardly the 50% level
you claim.

Although "octane" is typified as a value for knock resistance, it
can be readily identified. Clearly--I mean clearly, some fuels burn faster
than others and are more suitable for high speed engines. Oxygenated fuels
burn faster than nons...but create artificially lean mixtures.

Different perceptions or faq's on the internet should be taken and tested
against
real data. Flame speed is not only dependent on the type of fuel, but the
air
fuel ratio and turbulence in the combustion chamber. Top fuel dragsters
shoot
flames from exhaust because of incomplete combustion in the chamber--it's
still burning
out the pipe--and believe me, methanol burns slow in comparison to gasoline.
Specific density, volatility--all have relavence to flame speed.

>
> In summary, at the pump there is no direct causal relationship
> between higher octane and burn rate, people seem to report different
> perceptions - there is a faq on this as posted initially by Brian

So you say...I guess I do have a different perception.

Lyndon.







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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Sat Dec 21 19:15:50 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:15:50 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Dec 22, 2002 at 12:09:24AM +0000, Mike wrote:
> At 10:38 PM 21/12/2002 +1100, you wrote:
> >According to [my understanding of] Charles Fayette Taylor the
> >peak cylinder pressures resulting from the meeting of two flame
> >fronts coming from two spark plugs are essentially the same as a
> >single spark point (in comparison to pressures of detonation).

> Well thats one description, probably a bit simplistic but it
> stands to reason that if there is one spontaneous ignition point
> there are likely to be others and this may well contribute to the
> recognition of a particular phenomena, there may be degrees of
> this at many combinatorial levels and prior to that which is easy
> to recognise. ie. The issue of so called 'silent detonation' where
> the chamber conditions are marginal.

> In any case a flame front is not likely to be a simple event,
> there's a heap of dynamics going on so who really knows the
> details.

As I understand it; the gas movement prior to ignition adds to that
of the flame front; hence high "swirl" rates appear to reduce
detonation because they "outpace" the thermal transfer to the
end-gas so that it's less likely to detonate. The flame-front is
"swept" through the combustion chamber at greater speed (up to 80
metres/second IIRC); about the same order of magnitude of the flame
front velocity.

Keeping in mind that the "secondary compression" of the end-gas due
to the combustion process occurs at the speed of sound - whatever
that may be (depending on temperature), a lower pressure at a
"catalytic site" by the time the flame front reaches that site as
it's swirled, would tend to reduce the propensity to knock.

For detonation to occur at a particular "catalytic site", the general
conditions of combustion must still apply; there must be suitable
oxygen and fuel molecules, and temperature/pressure conditions under
which those molecules can react.

> There must have been people who have used a transparent chamber,
> high speed camera, feul additives and spectral analysis to
> show up instantaneous pressure events through the whole gamut
> of detonation like phenomena, but I aint seem em and know little
> of their interpretation :(

There is a great deal of visualisation research going on,
unfortunately proprietary, so published details are sketchy.
One could spend a lot of money attending conferences or buying SAE
papers on the matter... older research, which is still valid
ground-work, is available freely through NASA sites.

> >The photographs of combustion in his book seem to show that there
> >is no such thing that one could describe as a flame front when
> >detonation occurs - the unburnt remainder ignites throughout. I
> >must reread the relevant chapters, but I think to say that
> >detonation is a meeting of flame fronts is innacurate.

> Well it would be an interesting bit of probability to find several
> million molecules all deciding to grab their nearest partner at
> the same time, no mexican wave... Seems a little bit far fetched,

I'm sceptical of the "spontaneous" explosion inference. More than
likely; the supersonic detonation process is either simply too fast
to be captured or is too destructive on the flame front.

Back in 1977, when I last studied chemistry, nobody even mentioned
how long it takes for a molecular reaction; so that sort of
knowledge is pretty specialised.

The only thing I can't explain right now is why I'm writing this at
3 a.m. on a Sunday. :-(

-- 
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\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Sat Dec 21 22:47:21 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:47:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

I think you may have missunderstood me..

> BTW you post below.. Tops.. Cheers for that.

'Tops' was meant as 'Top one' or 'great', 'mint' ie 'That=B9s tops' =3D 'that=B9s
good'.. I was thanking you it was an idea in which we hadn't even considere=
d
and may make aa big difference.

As far as the Motec go, yes people do have good success with them, I'm just
yet to see anyone in the Southern Hemisphere do anything worth noting on a
Rotary with one that=B9s all, and I'm not prepared to do what Mario did and
become their test bed..
--=20
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 22/12/02 1:25 AM Dave Dahlgren wrote

> As far as
> top or bottom posting.. who cares move on with life.


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From true at ItsYourDomain.com  Sun Dec 22 02:01:12 2002
From: true at ItsYourDomain.com (Nick Starai)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:01:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 


I'm currently rebuilding my project Honda. Wondering what kinda CR you
guys would recommend. My engine management system is a modified OEM ECU by
Hondata. I will have full control of fuel/timing map and boost through an
electronic boost controller. I also have a knock sensor with individual
cylinder retard.

Some specs that may help: 1.95l aluminum head and block. The head has a
factory port/polish. The engine will run somewhere around 20psi through a
garrett t3 .63 a/r stage 3 / t04e 57 trim .60 a/r to reach my goal of
400whp. Will be run on 93 octane pump gas. My previous build was 8.8:1 as
I was able to put a shelf pistons in for cheap. I want to choose ideal c/r
for this next rebuild and will get custom pistons. It sounds like 9:1 (not
much different then 8.8 )is a reasonable median for street drivability
while still allowing a decent amount of boost. I've read many many heated
threads of high compression moderate boost vs. low compression high boost
merrits and it seems to boil down to around 9. Obviously higher cr will
make more power all things equal, but there is probably a ratio that is
more desirable for my street setup. I wouldn't hesitate putting in some
10.0:1 or 9.5:1's and running 20psi, I'm just trying to get a feel for
what everyone else in thinks is reasonable. I know that tuning will be the
key, but I don't know if 10:1's will be able to run decent timing at
15-20psi on 93 octane. I will have access to an inertial w/ wideband
initially. I'm just wondering what some of the experts on this list would
recommend for a street boosted custom application. Any advice? Thanks.

Nick Starai


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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Sun Dec 22 02:17:24 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:17:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

The turbo specs are pretty close to what we've used before on 2l turbos,
though I'm a little worried about the CR you're stating.
For boost of around 20psi I'd be looking at around 8 to 8.5:1. This would
allow you to run a little more boost if needed, but not see you 400whp
though (@20psi) but with a bit more boost you'd get close.
Now I see you mention 'Street Driving'.. Ever driven a 400whp machine on the
street??? :)))
I'm not that familiar with the Honda range when turbocharged as I am a
Nissan man ;) so i'm not saying that your 10:1 isn't ok in your application,
its just that unless we were building a strip car, then we'd be looking a
little lower in the CR,
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 22/12/02 3:00 PM Nick Starai wrote

> 
> I'm currently rebuilding my project Honda. Wondering what kinda CR you
> guys would recommend. My engine management system is a modified OEM ECU by
> Hondata. I will have full control of fuel/timing map and boost through an
> electronic boost controller. I also have a knock sensor with individual
> cylinder retard.
> 
> Some specs that may help: 1.95l aluminum head and block. The head has a
> factory port/polish. The engine will run somewhere around 20psi through a
> garrett t3 .63 a/r stage 3 / t04e 57 trim .60 a/r to reach my goal of
> 400whp. Will be run on 93 octane pump gas. My previous build was 8.8:1 as
> I was able to put a shelf pistons in for cheap. I want to choose ideal c/r
> for this next rebuild and will get custom pistons. It sounds like 9:1 (not
> much different then 8.8 )is a reasonable median for street drivability
> while still allowing a decent amount of boost. I've read many many heated
> threads of high compression moderate boost vs. low compression high boost
> merrits and it seems to boil down to around 9. Obviously higher cr will
> make more power all things equal, but there is probably a ratio that is
> more desirable for my street setup. I wouldn't hesitate putting in some
> 10.0:1 or 9.5:1's and running 20psi, I'm just trying to get a feel for
> what everyone else in thinks is reasonable. I know that tuning will be the
> key, but I don't know if 10:1's will be able to run decent timing at
> 15-20psi on 93 octane. I will have access to an inertial w/ wideband
> initially. I'm just wondering what some of the experts on this list would
> recommend for a street boosted custom application. Any advice? Thanks.
> 
> Nick Starai
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Sun Dec 22 02:38:06 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:38:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 


from my honda experiences it seem that both in general and specifically with 
hondas ( due to excelent cumbustion chamber design) that these engines 
tolerate a bit more cylinder pressure. id be willing to bet with a small 
reduction in spark and some carefull fuel mods that you street goal of 9:1 
with 93 octane is doable. however i do strongly advise that it would be ideal 
to go ahead and pull about 4-5 degress from the higher boost regions of the 
sprak map and work your way back up. this might seem extreme but the last 
time i checked honda pistons were a bit priceys. anyways if youd like to talk 
more email me offlist. no need for heated discusions. im running a 1227749 on 
a honda using gm parts. so i do have a bit of time as well as using piggy 
backs and boost retards with an older version on my 86 accord. email me we 
can talk at great length. 

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 04:32:18 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 01:32:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Lyndon,

I'm going on issues of burn rates primarily from fuel companies,
you accept that fuels can be contrived in blend to be fast or
slow burning yet independently be high or low octane.

Yet when I say there is no causal relationship you say you have
a "different perception", huh - this is in contradiction to the
acceptance summarisied in my first para above - can you elaborate
on this apparent dichotomy in your viewpoints - or are you arguing
for the sake of it ?

Also you are saying that methanol gives more energy than gasoline,
I always thought a litre of fuel had more btus than a litre of
methanol and I thought the difference was about 50%, I'll have
to check my figures on this one (apparently).

And,
Sure you can tune an engine to give more power on methanol but
you can do that to suit whatever fuel with all the variables
at your disposal but thats not what I said.

You seem to be arguing on the extrapolation on what you thought
I said not what I actually said, just stop it otherwise this
'discussion' will never cease  ;)

Rgds

mike




At 11:55 AM 21/12/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Well, that's nice it's been recently covered. This has been dealt with here
>several years ago also.
>
>> Its possible to contrive fuels to be either fast or slow burn at
>> either high or low octane, there is no causal relationship<
>
>That's because 90% of the test data out there is performed on a single
>cylinder slow RPM
>test engine used for octane tests. Saying there's no "casual" relationship
>while stating
>it's possible to be either fast or slow at either high or low just confirmed
>my answer.
>
>> In fact a porsch tuner commented to me some time ago that the higher
>> octane fuels seem to burn faster<<
>
>Ooooh....I'm glad you mentioned that. The TAG-Porsche team sought
>fuel blends that would burn fast enough at 13+K RPM which allowed less than
>.75 millisecond burn time. To quote "...the aromatic yielded higher flame
>speed
>than isoparaffins, and provided enhanced performance despite its lower
>motor octane number...the low motor octane of the fuel required spark
>advance
>below MBT to avoid detonation, but the high energy of the fuel more than
>compensated for this power loss..." end quote.
>
>Distillation curves have everything to do with flame speed.
>
>We've tested high and low research octanes in short stroke engines and
>have also found more streetable torque and HP out of a fast burning fuel.
>Now
>we've got the other way to a methanol injection with long stroke V8 to move
>this heavy car faster. Funny thing was that "HotRod" magazine came out with
>an
>article several years after we'd already played with 13to1 CR ratios and 87
>octane.
>
>> Also there is no causal link between octane and energy levels, you
>> can have high octane - such as methanol with abysmally low (50%)
>> energy level of petrol and the opposite can also be arranged.
>
>**BUZZER**
>
>Methanol is about 97 MON octane. But it's stoich is also around 6.5 to 1.
>The secret is oxygen content, but this also requires jetting to nail down
>best burn. We need to burn the most amount of fuel with the most amount
>of oxygen for max power. Methanol will yield more energy in a combustion
>chamber than gasoline ever will.
>Methanols is still around 18,000 BTU's per lb.
>Some of the best high octane of VP racing fuels for example, their
>C16 racing gasoline is 18,786 BTU's per lb. Hardly the 50% level
>you claim.
>
>Although "octane" is typified as a value for knock resistance, it
>can be readily identified. Clearly--I mean clearly, some fuels burn faster
>than others and are more suitable for high speed engines. Oxygenated fuels
>burn faster than nons...but create artificially lean mixtures.
>
>Different perceptions or faq's on the internet should be taken and tested
>against
>real data. Flame speed is not only dependent on the type of fuel, but the
>air
>fuel ratio and turbulence in the combustion chamber. Top fuel dragsters
>shoot
>flames from exhaust because of incomplete combustion in the chamber--it's
>still burning
>out the pipe--and believe me, methanol burns slow in comparison to gasoline.
>Specific density, volatility--all have relavence to flame speed.
>
>>
>> In summary, at the pump there is no direct causal relationship
>> between higher octane and burn rate, people seem to report different
>> perceptions - there is a faq on this as posted initially by Brian
>
>So you say...I guess I do have a different perception.
>
>Lyndon.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 04:40:03 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 01:40:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

At 08:00 PM 21/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>
>I'm currently rebuilding my project Honda. Wondering what kinda CR you
>guys would recommend. My engine management system is a modified OEM ECU by
>Hondata. I will have full control of fuel/timing map and boost through an
>electronic boost controller. I also have a knock sensor with individual
>cylinder retard.

Interesting, ? Can you elaborate on your knock sensor relationship to
which individual cylinder retard is managed - or do I infer you have
multiple knock sensors...

ie. If you have one knock sensor - how do you know which cylinder
to retard by how much - especially at higher rpms, is there a low
rpm cutoff for this algorithm ?

Does this occur at about say 4000 rpm ?


rgds

mike



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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 04:52:16 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 01:52:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 03:20 AM 22/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:

>As I understand it; the gas movement prior to ignition adds to that
>of the flame front; hence high "swirl" rates appear to reduce
>detonation because they "outpace" the thermal transfer to the
>end-gas so that it's less likely to detonate. The flame-front is
>"swept" through the combustion chamber at greater speed (up to 80
>metres/second IIRC); about the same order of magnitude of the flame
>front velocity.

Now this is an interesting point, is there an asymptotic limit
in repsect of chamber geometry variables and implementation
which might well quell the vast majority of detonation like
incidents in line with the paradigm you describe in your para above ?

I recall reading some years ago about a chap "Smokey ..." in US
who had built a 4 cylinder engine which ran a really high intake
manifold temperature - somewhere between 250 - 350 F. I recall
he had a turbo (which he said he used as a one way valve), used
a carby inside a hot water jacket and I think used exhaust gas
to heat the intake manifold - yet did he get detonation (?), well
he said not and confused the hell out of visting motor co
execs by burning his hand on the said intake manifold 
I also recall he stated his chamber design/layout was of some
importance but, thats the limit of my memory on this - must have
been 10-15 years ago - anyone know of this ? ?



>I'm sceptical of the "spontaneous" explosion inference. More than
>likely; the supersonic detonation process is either simply too fast
>to be captured or is too destructive on the flame front.

Yeah thats what I'm guessing as well, and the reflections of this
prcoess (amoung others) causes the ping we readily hear.

>The only thing I can't explain right now is why I'm writing this at
>3 a.m. on a Sunday. :-(

Or why I am on so many lists  and didnt get a Sat night date :(

rgds

mike



>-- 
>/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
>\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
> X   against HTML mail     | Copy me into your ~/.signature
>/ \  and postings          | to help me spread!
>
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>
>

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From true at ItsYourDomain.com  Sun Dec 22 05:15:20 2002
From: true at ItsYourDomain.com (Nick Starai)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 02:15:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 


> Interesting, ? Can you elaborate on your knock sensor relationship to
> which individual cylinder retard is managed - or do I infer you have
> multiple knock sensors...

It's made by J&S Electronics, called the SafeGuard. It only uses one
sensor.

> ie. If you have one knock sensor - how do you know which cylinder
> to retard by how much - especially at higher rpms, is there a low
> rpm cutoff for this algorithm ?

I'm not exactly sure the processes it uses, but it is proprietary and
supposedly a very complex algorithm. It is disabled at under 1500 RPM as
you expect. The display shows which cylinder it is retarding, and by how
many degress. It can pull up to 20 degrees per cylinder. Their webpage:
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/tech.html

> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



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From chapmans at ihug.co.nz  Sun Dec 22 06:32:08 2002
From: chapmans at ihug.co.nz (Lachlan Chapman)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 03:32:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

Turbo Vehicles S6 - about nz's most consistant rotary, runs motec. (mid
10's)

Look at haltech as well Matt.

* go the top posting
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Porritt" 
To: "DIY-EFI" 
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?


I think you may have missunderstood me..

> BTW you post below.. Tops.. Cheers for that.

'Tops' was meant as 'Top one' or 'great', 'mint' ie 'That?s tops' = 'that?s
good'.. I was thanking you it was an idea in which we hadn't even considered
and may make aa big difference.

As far as the Motec go, yes people do have good success with them, I'm just
yet to see anyone in the Southern Hemisphere do anything worth noting on a
Rotary with one that?s all, and I'm not prepared to do what Mario did and
become their test bed..
--
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 22/12/02 1:25 AM Dave Dahlgren wrote

> As far as
> top or bottom posting.. who cares move on with life.


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From Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com  Sun Dec 22 06:38:34 2002
From: Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com (Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 03:38:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 


--part1_f7.260d7fea.2b36b8f2_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 12/21/02 8:43:10 PM Central Standard Time, 
Djfreggens at aol.com writes:



from my honda experiences it seem that both in general and specifically with 
hondas ( due to excelent cumbustion chamber design) that these engines 
tolerate a bit more cylinder pressure. id be willing to bet with a small 
reduction in spark and some carefull fuel mods that you street goal of 9:1 
with 93 octane is doable. however i do strongly advise that it would be ideal 
to go ahead and pull about 4-5 degress from the higher boost regions of the 
sprak map and work your way back up. this might seem extreme but the last 
time i checked honda pistons were a bit priceys. anyways if youd like to talk 
more email me offlist. no need for heated discusions. im running a 1227749 on 
a honda using gm parts. so i do have a bit of time as well as using piggy 
backs and boost retards with an older version on my 86 accord. email me we 
can talk at great length. 

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Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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i've been scolded more than once and seen others scolded too, for using HTML. 
Am I the only one who has to scroll right to view all of this post???

Beau

--part1_f7.260d7fea.2b36b8f2_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 12/21/02 8:43:10 PM Central Standard Time, Djfreggens at aol.com writes:







from my honda experiences it seem that both in general and specifically with 

hondas ( due to excelent cumbustion chamber design) that these engines 

tolerate a bit more cylinder pressure. id be willing to bet with a small 

reduction in spark and some carefull fuel mods that you street goal of 9:1 

with 93 octane is doable. however i do strongly advise that it would be ideal 

to go ahead and pull about 4-5 degress from the higher boost regions of the 

sprak map and work your way back up. this might seem extreme but the last 

time i checked honda pistons were a bit priceys. anyways if youd like to talk 

more email me offlist. no need for heated discusions. im running a 1227749 on 

a honda using gm parts. so i do have a bit of time as well as using piggy 

backs and boost retards with an older version on my 86 accord. email me we 

can talk at great length. 



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Diy_efi mailing list

Diy_efi at diy-efi.org

http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi











i've been scolded more than once and seen others scolded too, for using HTML. Am I the only one who has to scroll right to view all of this post???



Beau

--part1_f7.260d7fea.2b36b8f2_boundary--

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From Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com  Sun Dec 22 06:45:57 2002
From: Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com (Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 03:45:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/21/02 10:38:30 PM Central Standard Time, 
erazmus at iinet.net.au writes:


I always thought a litre of fuel had more btus than a litre of
methanol and I thought the difference was about 50%, I'll have
to check my figures on this one (apparently).


aren't they BOTH fuels???? jet fuel, rocket fuel, honda fuel, weed-eater 
fuel, top-fuel fuel. If you're going to present an argument, get your 
terminology straight for the sake of the archives...... thanks

Beau

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From Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com  Sun Dec 22 06:50:19 2002
From: Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com (Ne14RoxCJ at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 03:50:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/21/02 10:58:56 PM Central Standard Time, 
erazmus at iinet.net.au writes:


Or why I am on so many lists  and didnt get a Sat night date :(

rgds

mike





hhhhmmmmm

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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Sun Dec 22 06:50:37 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 03:50:37 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

Fully aware of that.. With Turbo vech being NZ dist, you'd expect that! :)
I'm looking towards OZ where there are a dozen cars going what we're aiming
for.
You must admit, NZ is about 8 years behind Aus in terms of Rotary Drag
racing.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813



On 22/12/02 7:31 PM Lachlan Chapman wrote

> Turbo Vehicles S6 - about nz's most consistant rotary, runs motec. (mid
> 10's)
> 
> Look at haltech as well Matt.


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From chapmans at ihug.co.nz  Sun Dec 22 07:10:33 2002
From: chapmans at ihug.co.nz (Lachlan Chapman)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 04:10:33 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

Exactly what matt (hitman - http://www.hitman.hm ) said when he came over.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Porritt" 
To: "DIY-EFI" 
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?


> Fully aware of that.. With Turbo vech being NZ dist, you'd expect that! :)
> I'm looking towards OZ where there are a dozen cars going what we're
aiming
> for.
> You must admit, NZ is about 8 years behind Aus in terms of Rotary Drag
> racing.
> --
> Matt Porritt
> RC Race Cars and Supplies
> ICQ #22776813
>
>
>
> On 22/12/02 7:31 PM Lachlan Chapman wrote
>
> > Turbo Vehicles S6 - about nz's most consistant rotary, runs motec. (mid
> > 10's)
> >
> > Look at haltech as well Matt.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Sun Dec 22 07:26:02 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 04:26:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tuning with too much power for dyno?
Message-ID: 

Whos cars has he been tuning in NZ?
I've never met the guy, but have had some good feedback from those that have
had him tickle their wheels.
He is on our list of 'to chat to'
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 22/12/02 8:12 PM Lachlan Chapman wrote

> Exactly what matt (hitman - http://www.hitman.hm ) said when he came over.


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 10:36:55 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 07:36:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Sorry - I'll try to be more pedantic in future (much to the
chagrin of some no doubt;) to suit the situation, I think it
was clear from the thread I was referring to pump petrol...

rgds

mike


At 01:50 AM 22/12/2002 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/21/02 10:38:30 PM Central Standard Time, 
>erazmus at iinet.net.au writes:
>
>
>I always thought a litre of fuel had more btus than a litre of
>methanol and I thought the difference was about 50%, I'll have
>to check my figures on this one (apparently).
>
>
>aren't they BOTH fuels???? jet fuel, rocket fuel, honda fuel, weed-eater 
>fuel, top-fuel fuel. If you're going to present an argument, get your 
>terminology straight for the sake of the archives...... thanks
>
>Beau
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 10:52:03 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 07:52:03 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

Ah ha, I see

Clearly they are time correlating the 'window'(1) of ignition for a
specific cylinder with the detection of knock. Althought they
might like us to think its a 'complex algorithm' - I really dont
think so - I could draft it in a few sentences if anyone's interested.

I wonder though what the upper limit on revs is as a great deal of
engine rattle can appear as ping about 4000 rpm or so (The ECU for
my GMH with nissan RB30ET has an upper limit too, around 3000rpm
*and* all it does is retard the timing by 5deg - sob sob). I'm
guessing that one could go for more sensors, use a DSP and filter
out a great deal of other engine noise to have usable knock
detection up to rev limit...

Rgds

mike
(1) Period of time during which there is a high probability
of occurence of knock


At 11:20 PM 21/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>
>> Interesting, ? Can you elaborate on your knock sensor relationship to
>> which individual cylinder retard is managed - or do I infer you have
>> multiple knock sensors...
>
>It's made by J&S Electronics, called the SafeGuard. It only uses one
>sensor.
>
>> ie. If you have one knock sensor - how do you know which cylinder
>> to retard by how much - especially at higher rpms, is there a low
>> rpm cutoff for this algorithm ?
>
>I'm not exactly sure the processes it uses, but it is proprietary and
>supposedly a very complex algorithm. It is disabled at under 1500 RPM as
>you expect. The display shows which cylinder it is retarding, and by how
>many degress. It can pull up to 20 degrees per cylinder. Their webpage:
>http://www.jandssafeguard.com/tech.html
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>
>
>
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>

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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 10:55:34 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 07:55:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Dec 22, 2002 at 12:50:24PM +0000, Mike wrote:
> At 08:00 PM 21/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >I'm currently rebuilding my project Honda. Wondering what kinda
> >CR you guys would recommend. My engine management system is a
> >modified OEM ECU by Hondata. I will have full control of
> >fuel/timing map and boost through an electronic boost controller.
> >I also have a knock sensor with individual cylinder retard.

> Interesting, ? Can you elaborate on your knock sensor relationship to
> which individual cylinder retard is managed - or do I infer you have
> multiple knock sensors...

> ie. If you have one knock sensor - how do you know which cylinder
> to retard by how much - especially at higher rpms, is there a low
> rpm cutoff for this algorithm ?

Because the detonation occurs in a narrow time window after spark;
usually after TDC. So you know which cylinder because it's the one
recently fired.

AFAICT, that's how Bosch and others have been doing knock management
since the mid 1980's.

On my car, the retard is rather aggressive; and it will drag other
cylinder timings back is there's more than 6 degrees difference
(IIRC) between cylinders so they all still fire fairly evenly. Quite
a noticeable power drop; very sensitive to humidity.

"Pings" quite audibly at times from low revs, even with Ultimate 98.
But not on humid days. On a cooler day, with say 80% humdity, it
feels like the engine is putting out at least 10% more mid-range and
even more low-end torque than with 50% or less RH. Of course; as it
gets even colder, it doesn't matter that there's 100% RH; it'll
still ping.

> Does this occur at about say 4000 rpm ?

30 milliseconds between sparks; no problem.

Let's talk about 12,000 rpm. :-)

-- 
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 11:07:01 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 08:07:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

At 06:59 PM 22/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:

>Because the detonation occurs in a narrow time window after spark;
>usually after TDC. So you know which cylinder because it's the one
>recently fired.

Yeah just realised - whilst you were no doubt compiling your email ;)

>"Pings" quite audibly at times from low revs, even with Ultimate 98.
>But not on humid days. On a cooler day, with say 80% humdity, it
>feels like the engine is putting out at least 10% more mid-range and
>even more low-end torque than with 50% or less RH. Of course; as it
>gets even colder, it doesn't matter that there's 100% RH; it'll
>still ping.

Well why the heck dont you add a water injection setup and get the
humidty artificially - and you could chill it as well :-)

>> Does this occur at about say 4000 rpm ?
>
>30 milliseconds between sparks; no problem.

The time is not the issue, its the fact that at higher revs there
are all sorts of other things that may 'sum' to way too much
noise floor for effective ping detection...

rgds

mike




>Let's talk about 12,000 rpm. :-)
>
>-- 
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>\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 11:09:29 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 08:09:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Dec 22, 2002 at 01:05:38PM +0000, Mike wrote:
> At 03:20 AM 22/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:

> >As I understand it; the gas movement prior to ignition adds to that
> >of the flame front; hence high "swirl" rates appear to reduce
> >detonation because they "outpace" the thermal transfer to the
> >end-gas so that it's less likely to detonate. The flame-front is
> >"swept" through the combustion chamber at greater speed (up to 80
> >metres/second IIRC); about the same order of magnitude of the flame
> >front velocity.

> Now this is an interesting point, is there an asymptotic limit
> in repsect of chamber geometry variables and implementation
> which might well quell the vast majority of detonation like
> incidents in line with the paradigm you describe in your para above ?

I'm not au fait with the current state of the art. Volkswagen is one
manufacturer that's built relatively high CR engines (10.5:1 was
normal even in 1990) but they reduced the problem of knock that
is inherent with such a high CR by using slightly smaller valves
than would be deemed appropriate for peak performance, and they
angled their ports; which resulted in high gas speeds as an angle,
promoting swirl. It mostly works; except at low engine speeds.

Of course, swirl imposes other effects on the air-fuel mix in the
cylinder; if there's a combustible mix near a hot spot, then it
needs to be near that hot spot to get enough energy to ignite. By
moving the gases rapidly, you "even out" the temperature rises and
provide convective cooling to the spot while spreading the thermal
load over a greater volume of mix.

One can probably come up with some more reasonable theories about
what happens if the gas is moving prior to ignition. I wish I had
the numbers to be able to know what factors and effects are more
significant. Knowing that it works is good; knowing how can take a
long time to figure out.

As for the limiting parameters; there's the matter of the kinetic
energy of the molecules themselves. Worst case is that this will
contribute to the heat required to produce detonation in the end gas
as it's bouncing around - assume all forms of energy become heat in
the limit.

-- 
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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 12:13:54 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:13:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Dec 22, 2002 at 07:17:08PM +0000, Mike wrote:
> At 06:59 PM 22/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
> 
> >Because the detonation occurs in a narrow time window after spark;
> >usually after TDC. So you know which cylinder because it's the one
> >recently fired.
> 
> Yeah just realised - whilst you were no doubt compiling your email ;)
> 
> >"Pings" quite audibly at times from low revs, even with Ultimate 98.
> >But not on humid days. On a cooler day, with say 80% humdity, it
> >feels like the engine is putting out at least 10% more mid-range and
> >even more low-end torque than with 50% or less RH. Of course; as it
> >gets even colder, it doesn't matter that there's 100% RH; it'll
> >still ping.

> Well why the heck dont you add a water injection setup and get the
> humidty artificially - and you could chill it as well :-)

Expense and water is scarce. :-)

Still trying to get a cheap inlet fogger together; that should do
the trick. In winter, I'd have to heat the fog so that the air
temperature rises as well. At 8 degrees C, air is saturated with
only about 8 g of water per kg of air. Heating the air to about 25
degrees increases that to about 20 grams. That's worth 3 Octane
points; but the temperature rise reduces the effect by 1 to 2
points. 

> >> Does this occur at about say 4000 rpm ?

> >30 milliseconds between sparks; no problem.

> The time is not the issue, its the fact that at higher revs there
> are all sorts of other things that may 'sum' to way too much
> noise floor for effective ping detection...

Unless you know the noise floor and can compensate; which is what
the (defunct) Harris chip did; measure noise floor outside the knock
window and "subtract" that from the knock window levels. Well; it
was rather more complicated but that's the gist. Hopefully, the
valvetrain isn't clattering away just inside the knock window;
though it's conceivable that some valves might be opening or closing
at the same time.

-- 
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 12:56:41 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:56:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

At 08:17 PM 22/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>> Well why the heck dont you add a water injection setup and get the
>> humidty artificially - and you could chill it as well :-)
>
>Expense and water is scarce. :-)

Yeah methanol might soon be cheaper, the way the rains are going ;)

>Still trying to get a cheap inlet fogger together; that should do
>the trick. In winter, I'd have to heat the fog so that the air
>temperature rises as well. At 8 degrees C, air is saturated with
>only about 8 g of water per kg of air. Heating the air to about 25
>degrees increases that to about 20 grams. That's worth 3 Octane
>points; but the temperature rise reduces the effect by 1 to 2
>points. 

But hang on, you dont want water vapour and you dont want too
small a droplet size otherwise it will become vapour by the time
it gets to the cylinders. I dont recall what boost you were
running but over a wide range where the droplets will displace
a little air - you still want to introduce quite a large amount
of water so the cylinder compression can dump its heat in the
latent heat of vapourisation. SOmeone called 'Pete' on the
nissans13 user group on Yahoo did a nice setup and managed to
run straight ULP at around 15psi or so boost, went up to
almost 20psi on optimax,  using off the
shelf items and an atomiser head from a agri company, I think
it cost him around $200 and most of that was the pump which
I recall was one the best most reliable marine ones around
(I'm not on that group anymore - 9 lists are enough )

>> The time is not the issue, its the fact that at higher revs there
>> are all sorts of other things that may 'sum' to way too much
>> noise floor for effective ping detection...
>
>Unless you know the noise floor and can compensate; which is what
>the (defunct) Harris chip did; measure noise floor outside the knock
>window and "subtract" that from the knock window levels. Well; it
>was rather more complicated but that's the gist. Hopefully, the
>valvetrain isn't clattering away just inside the knock window;
>though it's conceivable that some valves might be opening or closing
>at the same time.

mmmm, Bit difficult due to the random nature of noise but fair point
that 'noise' at different times but at the same rpms should be close
enough that a signal might get through, especially integrating over
the window and doing some convolution etc Its all those other
nasties like occasional valve bounce (minor I know) but changes as
the valves rotate, that and ringing through the rods, eccentric
motion around the big ends, twisting and reflections along the crank
etc - which contribute to making it unreliable to just sub the last
known noise - then the air con kicks in - another set of varying
noise or a change in gear propogates back through to change the
instantaneous torque fluctuations which make everything else 
twitch in frequency and amplitude ad infinitum etc etc

I really like the idea of correlating one knock sensor per
cylinder with those fibre optic pressure sensors (in spark plugs)
with individual EGT per chamber that might make it good
for high rpms and high loads - not quite synonomous with my
general use as a road car, compliments the twin tires I have
on it at moment - I must be probably the last person in Australia
with them if not the Southern Hemisphere 

rgds

mike


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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 13:48:31 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 10:48:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Dec 22, 2002 at 09:09:47PM +0000, Mike wrote:
> At 08:17 PM 22/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
> >> Well why the heck dont you add a water injection setup and get the
> >> humidty artificially - and you could chill it as well :-)

> >Expense and water is scarce. :-)
> 
> Yeah methanol might soon be cheaper, the way the rains are going ;)

> >Still trying to get a cheap inlet fogger together; that should do
> >the trick. In winter, I'd have to heat the fog so that the air
> >temperature rises as well. At 8 degrees C, air is saturated with
> >only about 8 g of water per kg of air. Heating the air to about 25
> >degrees increases that to about 20 grams. That's worth 3 Octane
> >points; but the temperature rise reduces the effect by 1 to 2
> >points. 

> But hang on, you dont want water vapour and you dont want too
> small a droplet size otherwise it will become vapour by the time
> it gets to the cylinders. I dont recall what boost you were

Yes I DO want water vapour. Check the Gasoline FAQ. It deals with
humidity - absolute humidity is what appears to be significant in
inhibiting knock.

The mechanisms as I understand it are:
  1. absorption of heat; though a few g/kg aren't going to
     work miracles at most 0.5% in mass so about 1% in heat.
  2. displacing some oxygen molecules resulting in slower burning.
  3. ummm... oh my brain hurts... can't think of it right now.

Liquid water becoming vapour in the cylinder raises cylinder
pressure. Unless the heat of vapourisation is so great that the
temperature drops markedly, that could do more harm. 1 gram of
liquid water displaces about 1 cc. 1 gram of water vapour displaces
vastly more... unless it's compressed lots; and in essence if you
want to remove the heat, you have to let it expand...

BTW: Once you reach 100% RH, the air is saturated and you won't
easily evaporate any more drops.

> running but over a wide range where the droplets will displace
> a little air - you still want to introduce quite a large amount
> of water so the cylinder compression can dump its heat in the
> latent heat of vapourisation. SOmeone called 'Pete' on the

I don't need the cooling... at 37 degrees C with 90% RH; i.e.
stinking hot like a few days ago, there was no ping off idle, under
load with WOT.

That's all I want to do; let the engine management system advance
the timing as far as it wants without encountering knock.

> nissans13 user group on Yahoo did a nice setup and managed to
> run straight ULP at around 15psi or so boost, went up to
> almost 20psi on optimax,  using off the
> shelf items and an atomiser head from a agri company, I think
> it cost him around $200 and most of that was the pump which
> I recall was one the best most reliable marine ones around
> (I'm not on that group anymore - 9 lists are enough )

I want my engine to last another 250,000km and liquid water is
not conducive to long engine life!

And I'm from a part of Germany where Scotsmen are considered
generous people; so $200 for a pump is way off - and it'll probably
deliver much more water than I want as vapour. I worked out a
maximum of 10 litres per hour at 6000 rpm starting with 4 g/kg
absolute humidity and elevating that to about 30 g/kg at 40 degrees
ambient air temp.

> >> The time is not the issue, its the fact that at higher revs there
> >> are all sorts of other things that may 'sum' to way too much
> >> noise floor for effective ping detection...

> >Unless you know the noise floor and can compensate; which is what
> >the (defunct) Harris chip did; measure noise floor outside the knock
> >window and "subtract" that from the knock window levels. Well; it
> >was rather more complicated but that's the gist. Hopefully, the
> >valvetrain isn't clattering away just inside the knock window;
> >though it's conceivable that some valves might be opening or closing
> >at the same time.

> mmmm, Bit difficult due to the random nature of noise but fair point
> that 'noise' at different times but at the same rpms should be close
> enough that a signal might get through, especially integrating over
> the window and doing some convolution etc Its all those other
> nasties like occasional valve bounce (minor I know) but changes as
> the valves rotate, that and ringing through the rods, eccentric
> motion around the big ends, twisting and reflections along the crank
> etc - which contribute to making it unreliable to just sub the last
> known noise - then the air con kicks in - another set of varying
> noise or a change in gear propogates back through to change the
> instantaneous torque fluctuations which make everything else 
> twitch in frequency and amplitude ad infinitum etc etc

Like I said; the chip is rather more complicated! The data sheet
should still be floating around.

> I really like the idea of correlating one knock sensor per
> cylinder with those fibre optic pressure sensors (in spark plugs)
> with individual EGT per chamber that might make it good
> for high rpms and high loads - not quite synonomous with my
> general use as a road car, compliments the twin tires I have
> on it at moment - I must be probably the last person in Australia
> with them if not the Southern Hemisphere 

A UK research team used piezo sensors under the head bolts to get a
measure of cylinder pressure.

-- 
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\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 14:15:34 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:15:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

In all the practical situations I've encountered, water droplets
are preferred because the latent heat of vapourisation is high
in comparison with the effect of the droplets becoming vapour,
this *and* the fact you can chill the water to a degree or so Celcius
with a peltier device etc - Is going to make all the difference,
on its way from the nozzle to the chamber those droplets at
a degree or so will encounter turbulence and shed some heat from
the air... I'll check out the gasoline faq shortly,

Also I've seen a couple of engines that ran WI and they were
far far cleaner then those that didnt, of course you have the
safety interlocks, no WI below 1500rpm and idle engine for
60 secs after last WI (minimum before shutoff) and flow
sensor/shut off solenoid on feed to nozzle etc etc
I'd expect a properly constructed WI system to enhance engine
life, running higher boost without WI will shorten it, in 
any case most turbo engines need a rebuild after 250,000K
anyway - so 'go figure' as they say in USA ;)

Sure water is bad from lots of perspectives but so is
too much fuel or not enough etc

What boost did you say you are running ?

rgds

mike


At 09:52 PM 22/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>On Sun, Dec 22, 2002 at 09:09:47PM +0000, Mike wrote:
>> At 08:17 PM 22/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>> >> Well why the heck dont you add a water injection setup and get the
>> >> humidty artificially - and you could chill it as well :-)
>
>> >Expense and water is scarce. :-)
>> 
>> Yeah methanol might soon be cheaper, the way the rains are going ;)
>
>> >Still trying to get a cheap inlet fogger together; that should do
>> >the trick. In winter, I'd have to heat the fog so that the air
>> >temperature rises as well. At 8 degrees C, air is saturated with
>> >only about 8 g of water per kg of air. Heating the air to about 25
>> >degrees increases that to about 20 grams. That's worth 3 Octane
>> >points; but the temperature rise reduces the effect by 1 to 2
>> >points. 
>
>> But hang on, you dont want water vapour and you dont want too
>> small a droplet size otherwise it will become vapour by the time
>> it gets to the cylinders. I dont recall what boost you were
>
>Yes I DO want water vapour. Check the Gasoline FAQ. It deals with
>humidity - absolute humidity is what appears to be significant in
>inhibiting knock.
>
>The mechanisms as I understand it are:
>  1. absorption of heat; though a few g/kg aren't going to
>     work miracles at most 0.5% in mass so about 1% in heat.
>  2. displacing some oxygen molecules resulting in slower burning.
>  3. ummm... oh my brain hurts... can't think of it right now.
>
>Liquid water becoming vapour in the cylinder raises cylinder
>pressure. Unless the heat of vapourisation is so great that the
>temperature drops markedly, that could do more harm. 1 gram of
>liquid water displaces about 1 cc. 1 gram of water vapour displaces
>vastly more... unless it's compressed lots; and in essence if you
>want to remove the heat, you have to let it expand...
>
>BTW: Once you reach 100% RH, the air is saturated and you won't
>easily evaporate any more drops.
>
>> running but over a wide range where the droplets will displace
>> a little air - you still want to introduce quite a large amount
>> of water so the cylinder compression can dump its heat in the
>> latent heat of vapourisation. SOmeone called 'Pete' on the
>
>I don't need the cooling... at 37 degrees C with 90% RH; i.e.
>stinking hot like a few days ago, there was no ping off idle, under
>load with WOT.
>
>That's all I want to do; let the engine management system advance
>the timing as far as it wants without encountering knock.
>
>> nissans13 user group on Yahoo did a nice setup and managed to
>> run straight ULP at around 15psi or so boost, went up to
>> almost 20psi on optimax,  using off the
>> shelf items and an atomiser head from a agri company, I think
>> it cost him around $200 and most of that was the pump which
>> I recall was one the best most reliable marine ones around
>> (I'm not on that group anymore - 9 lists are enough )
>
>I want my engine to last another 250,000km and liquid water is
>not conducive to long engine life!
>
>And I'm from a part of Germany where Scotsmen are considered
>generous people; so $200 for a pump is way off - and it'll probably
>deliver much more water than I want as vapour. I worked out a
>maximum of 10 litres per hour at 6000 rpm starting with 4 g/kg
>absolute humidity and elevating that to about 30 g/kg at 40 degrees
>ambient air temp.
>
>> >> The time is not the issue, its the fact that at higher revs there
>> >> are all sorts of other things that may 'sum' to way too much
>> >> noise floor for effective ping detection...
>
>> >Unless you know the noise floor and can compensate; which is what
>> >the (defunct) Harris chip did; measure noise floor outside the knock
>> >window and "subtract" that from the knock window levels. Well; it
>> >was rather more complicated but that's the gist. Hopefully, the
>> >valvetrain isn't clattering away just inside the knock window;
>> >though it's conceivable that some valves might be opening or closing
>> >at the same time.
>
>> mmmm, Bit difficult due to the random nature of noise but fair point
>> that 'noise' at different times but at the same rpms should be close
>> enough that a signal might get through, especially integrating over
>> the window and doing some convolution etc Its all those other
>> nasties like occasional valve bounce (minor I know) but changes as
>> the valves rotate, that and ringing through the rods, eccentric
>> motion around the big ends, twisting and reflections along the crank
>> etc - which contribute to making it unreliable to just sub the last
>> known noise - then the air con kicks in - another set of varying
>> noise or a change in gear propogates back through to change the
>> instantaneous torque fluctuations which make everything else 
>> twitch in frequency and amplitude ad infinitum etc etc
>
>Like I said; the chip is rather more complicated! The data sheet
>should still be floating around.
>
>> I really like the idea of correlating one knock sensor per
>> cylinder with those fibre optic pressure sensors (in spark plugs)
>> with individual EGT per chamber that might make it good
>> for high rpms and high loads - not quite synonomous with my
>> general use as a road car, compliments the twin tires I have
>> on it at moment - I must be probably the last person in Australia
>> with them if not the Southern Hemisphere 
>
>A UK research team used piezo sensors under the head bolts to get a
>measure of cylinder pressure.
>
>-- 
>/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
>\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
> X   against HTML mail     | Copy me into your ~/.signature
>/ \  and postings          | to help me spread!
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From hugh at sol.co.uk  Sun Dec 22 14:22:16 2002
From: hugh at sol.co.uk (Hugh Keir)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:22:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

Mike,

My comment was partly based on some stuff I read ages ago mostly on aviation
fuel and gave a history of fuel design from 1st world war onwards, there
have been some very informative replies since then covering race fuel which
have made me wonder about the absolute validity of my post.

With reference to pump gas, please explian why it is normal to run more
advanced ignition timing on a high octane fuel, it suggests to me
that the process of igniting and burning the fuel is slower than with the
low octane offering.

If I can find the article or any other information I will post it.

Hugh





----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?


> Hugh,
>
> Please quote the authoritative source of your information
> that "octane has everything to do with speed of burn" ?
>
> rgds
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> At 10:15 AM 19/12/2002 -0000, you wrote:
> >
> >Mike wrote "Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking
> >" - yes
> >
> >This is at its most basic level achieved by altering the fuel to burn
more
> >predictably and slowly by removing the most volatile components or
modifying
> >the way that the most volatile components burn with additives.
> >
> >In short octane has everything to do with the speed of the burn.
> >
> >High octane fuels do not necessarily give the most power. Brian Geddes
> >posted a couple of days ago that his Miata did not knock regardless of
> >ignition timing. In this situation, it might be worth trying a lower
octane
> >fuel which when optimised for timing and fuel mixture may give a higher
> >cylinder pressure through the faster burn and therefore slightly more
power
> >even though the calorific values of the high and low octane fuels are
> >similar.
> >
> >Do not confuse high octane with high energy as unless it is a racing
fuel,
> >the two do not normally go hand in hand.
> >
> >Hugh
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Mike" 
> >To: 
> >Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:25 AM
> >Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
> >
> >
> >> At 11:23 AM 18/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >> >--- "Geddes, Brian J" 
> >> >wrote:
> >> >Well, if you are talking in that sense, simply up the
> >> >octane to cover the extra compression.  However, you
> >> >can run into a point of diminishing returns as far as
> >> >power output at higher rpms with the slower burn...
> >>
> >> Huh ?
> >>
> >> WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?
> >>
> >> Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>






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From shannen at grolen.com  Sun Dec 22 15:54:32 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:54:32 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Off Topic Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6334.0
Message-ID: 

I was too.  Look for a little box in the edit/preferences/ messages
section "wrap incoming plain text messages to window width."  Prolly
need to check this box.

Shannen

Phil Lamovie wrote:
> 
> Is it just me using Netscape 4.79 or are others
> receiving impossibly long unwrapped messages
> from list members using this "innovative" technology ?
> 
> I've had 4 or 5 now with this gem in the header.
> 
> "Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6334.0"
> 
> puzzled...
> 
> phil
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 16:04:45 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:04:45 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

At 01:18 PM 22/12/2002 -0000, you wrote:
>My comment was partly based on some stuff I read ages ago mostly on aviation
>fuel and gave a history of fuel design from 1st world war onwards, there
>have been some very informative replies since then covering race fuel which
>have made me wonder about the absolute validity of my post.

Well as I think most have discerned from all those that posted in
respect of there not being an automatic relationship (I used the
word causal - which in hindsight is not quite accurate), between
octane and speed of burn that it can be contrived either way then
this raises cognitive issues to rationalise what is/could be
going on under a variety of situations.

>With reference to pump gas, please explian why it is normal to run more
>advanced ignition timing on a high octane fuel, it suggests to me
>that the process of igniting and burning the fuel is slower than with the
>low octane offering.

This is an aspect of the rationale that is not extracted from 
certain givens, the major being that auto companies design/use
an engine for a particular octane +- a factor - primarily for
reliability. They dont want warranty returns on damaged engine
parts within the warranty period *and* to a slightly lesser
degree for periods after the warranty so as not to gain a critical
mass of dissent amoungst the buying public. Having said that,
there is some margin for variation that owners and tuners can
'mess with' therefore there is some range by which 'amendments'
can be made to aftermarket tuning of these primarily production
engines - the tolerances are of course a bit tighter at the
higher end of the market but nonetheless the owner/tuner has
option to make adjustments as they see fit...

I dont really know what you mean by 'normal' in your about
context, as most of the people I know run turbos as I do, and
timing we do not tend to advance at all, we are looking to 
retard a tad if anything so we can run higher boost. The
inference you make re burning fuel may well be encompassed
by the spread of tolerance allowed for in automanufacturers
re para above re warranty.

To elaborate. If I just stayed with the bog standard 7.5psi
boost for my engine then I might well be able to push the
base timing a little to say 20 BTDC and stay with the same
ULP. But I want a little more power so I run 10.5 psi
and use premium but stay with the base timing of 15 BTDC, or
even retard a little to 12 BTDC giving me that comfort zone.

Bear in mind the point at which max power occurs in the
stroke is subject to some tolerance for the reasons
given in my para above, and this very tolerance may well
be the issue as detonation is reduced to allow the higher
advance but the point at which max power occurs shifts by
the same amount but the gain is disproportionate.

Think of it as two bell shaped curves of distribution that
intersect as in the case of set theory, one bell shaped
curve is power output from ignition advance before detonation
(or max before that occurence)
and the other bell shaped curve is say power peak at point
from ignition (or something equivalent but words escape me
for the moment). The width of these bell shaped curves is
sufficient such that manufacturers have leeway to maximise
reliability and shift their intersection with economic imperative,
we ie owners/tuners have more directed discrimination ;)

Thats it for now, I realise I've been a bit active on this
group and need to get some work done,

rgds

mike


>If I can find the article or any other information I will post it.
>
>Hugh
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 12:12 PM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>
>
>> Hugh,
>>
>> Please quote the authoritative source of your information
>> that "octane has everything to do with speed of burn" ?
>>
>> rgds
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> At 10:15 AM 19/12/2002 -0000, you wrote:
>> >
>> >Mike wrote "Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking
>> >" - yes
>> >
>> >This is at its most basic level achieved by altering the fuel to burn
>more
>> >predictably and slowly by removing the most volatile components or
>modifying
>> >the way that the most volatile components burn with additives.
>> >
>> >In short octane has everything to do with the speed of the burn.
>> >
>> >High octane fuels do not necessarily give the most power. Brian Geddes
>> >posted a couple of days ago that his Miata did not knock regardless of
>> >ignition timing. In this situation, it might be worth trying a lower
>octane
>> >fuel which when optimised for timing and fuel mixture may give a higher
>> >cylinder pressure through the faster burn and therefore slightly more
>power
>> >even though the calorific values of the high and low octane fuels are
>> >similar.
>> >
>> >Do not confuse high octane with high energy as unless it is a racing
>fuel,
>> >the two do not normally go hand in hand.
>> >
>> >Hugh
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Mike" 
>> >To: 
>> >Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 5:25 AM
>> >Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
>> >
>> >
>> >> At 11:23 AM 18/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>> >> >--- "Geddes, Brian J" 
>> >> >wrote:
>> >> >Well, if you are talking in that sense, simply up the
>> >> >octane to cover the extra compression.  However, you
>> >> >can run into a point of diminishing returns as far as
>> >> >power output at higher rpms with the slower burn...
>> >>
>> >> Huh ?
>> >>
>> >> WHat has octane to do with the speed of the fuel burn ?
>> >>
>> >> Isnt octane a measure of the fuels ability to resist knocking ?
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Diy_efi mailing list
>> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From dragondon at sympatico.ca  Sun Dec 22 16:07:58 2002
From: dragondon at sympatico.ca (DragonDon)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:07:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Greetings!
Message-ID: 

Hello All!

Thought I'd join up as I have an idea for my next car...a older Dodge 440
with EFI and twin Turbo :)

Yes, quite the ambitious project and one that should take quite a while to
complete (unless I win large amounts of money sometime soon).

So, I thought I'd do some head-up researching and see what goes on over here
:)

I was actually looking for a friend e-mail address (Andre Roy) and saw his
name in a post from this list.  Thought this would work out very well by
both getting some information and possibly hooking up with an old friend
again :)

So, where shall I start....background on me:

1st car, '74 Charger.

Notable following cars:	'72 Dart (/6), .87 Caravelle (2.2 Turbo), and just
recently past, '97 Neon DOHC(150HP).

So, with such a broad range of Mopar engines, I figured a nice combination
of old/new should be just right for a killer combination of power and
'wow'-factor :)

Any suggestions where to start would be greatly appreciated!

DragonDon
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From true at ItsYourDomain.com  Sun Dec 22 16:24:56 2002
From: true at ItsYourDomain.com (Nick Starai)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:24:56 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 



> Althought they might like us to think its a 'complex algorithm' - I
> really dont think so - I could draft it in a few sentences if anyone's
> interested.

Mike, sure we could draft up a quick and easy paper on the logic a program
needs to retard the cylinders...the complex part as you mention below is
the filtering of other noises.


> use a DSP and filter
> out a great deal of other engine noise to have usable knock
> detection up to rev limit...

The J&S uses DSP. Other then being disabled under 1500 RPM, It connects
to TPS and disables itself on de-acceleration where the engine is more
prone to pickup piston slap as knock. These 2 combinations allow it to be
used for the full scope of the useful rpm range.

Back to C/R....what you guys think.. 9:1 as well? :)


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From emgee at village.uunet.be  Sun Dec 22 16:57:14 2002
From: emgee at village.uunet.be (Marc Geyskens)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:57:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Bosch Motronic Fiat comms
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002 22:06:14 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I've been looking into this for sometime, and thought perhaps someone on=
 this group could point mein the right direction.=20
>
>I'm trying to set up a system such that I can communicate with the ECU =
on my Fiat Coupe (1997 20V turbo), using a laptop, a suitable interface =
and home written software. This is to enable me to read fault codes, look=
 at engine parameters etc.
>
>The ECU is described as a Bosch Motronic 2.10.4 0 261 204 483 46476758 =
XEBM4483. The interface is a bi-directional K line using 'standard bosch =
protocol'.=20
>
>I think I understand the K-line hardware side (I have the baud rates =
etc) and it looks relatively easy to make something up. The difficulty =
comes in knowing what codes/ commands are sent to the ECU to get a =
response.
>
>I've had a lot of searches on the internet and come over things like =
OBD, OBD II, CAN, but I'm confused as to which, if any, apply to this =
car/system. What is the 'standard bosch protocol' my workshop manual =
refers to?
>
>Can anybody tell me where I can find the necessary information, if it is=
 in fact available,
>
>Many Thanks
>
>Mike Bilton

try www.scantool.net

mg


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From erce at nccw.net  Sun Dec 22 21:04:12 2002
From: erce at nccw.net (erce)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 18:04:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Are you sure the Safeguard uses a DSP?
Message-ID: 

Nick,

You said....

>The J&S uses DSP. Other then being disabled under 1500 RPM, It connects
>to TPS and disables itself on de-acceleration where the engine is more
>prone to pickup piston slap as knock.

I have been thinking about the Safeguard design for a while....The Motorola
68HC11 series processor he (at least used to use) is not a fast "DSP
enabled" processor.  I always thought he windowed the knock and used  analog
band pass filtering.

On another note, does it really matter if we pull timing on de-acceleration?
Have you verified that his unit disables under TPS closure?

I have a J&S, just waiting to play with it.  Haven't had the time to de pot
the innerards yet.

Regards,
Dave
==================================================
Courtesy is Contagious!


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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 23:02:47 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:02:47 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Dec 22, 2002 at 10:26:03PM +0000, Mike wrote:

> At 09:52 PM 22/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
> >On Sun, Dec 22, 2002 at 09:09:47PM +0000, Mike wrote:
> >> At 08:17 PM 22/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
> >> >> Well why the heck dont you add a water injection setup and get the
> >> >> humidty artificially - and you could chill it as well :-)

> >> >Expense and water is scarce. :-)
> >> 
> >> Yeah methanol might soon be cheaper, the way the rains are going ;)

> >> >Still trying to get a cheap inlet fogger together; that should do
> >> >the trick. In winter, I'd have to heat the fog so that the air
> >> >temperature rises as well. At 8 degrees C, air is saturated with
> >> >only about 8 g of water per kg of air. Heating the air to about 25
> >> >degrees increases that to about 20 grams. That's worth 3 Octane
> >> >points; but the temperature rise reduces the effect by 1 to 2
> >> >points. 

> >> But hang on, you dont want water vapour and you dont want too
> >> small a droplet size otherwise it will become vapour by the time
> >> it gets to the cylinders. I dont recall what boost you were

> >Yes I DO want water vapour. Check the Gasoline FAQ. It deals with
> >humidity - absolute humidity is what appears to be significant in
> >inhibiting knock.

[snip]

> In all the practical situations I've encountered, water droplets
> are preferred because the latent heat of vapourisation is high
> in comparison with the effect of the droplets becoming vapour,
> this *and* the fact you can chill the water to a degree or so Celcius
> with a peltier device etc - Is going to make all the difference,
> on its way from the nozzle to the chamber those droplets at
> a degree or so will encounter turbulence and shed some heat from
> the air... I'll check out the gasoline faq shortly,

> >I want my engine to last another 250,000km and liquid water is
> >not conducive to long engine life!

> Also I've seen a couple of engines that ran WI and they were
> far far cleaner then those that didnt, of course you have the
> safety interlocks, no WI below 1500rpm and idle engine for
> 60 secs after last WI (minimum before shutoff) and flow
> sensor/shut off solenoid on feed to nozzle etc etc
> I'd expect a properly constructed WI system to enhance engine
> life, running higher boost without WI will shorten it, in 
> any case most turbo engines need a rebuild after 250,000K
> anyway - so 'go figure' as they say in USA ;)

Mine's not a turbo engine.

Besides; the base engine of a road car shouldn't need a rebuilt
nowadays until well over 300,000 km. Turbo and exhaust probably will
require replacement at that stage in any sort of performance
application.  Various bits of plastic in the engine compartment tend
to be come brittle after 5000 hours at high temperatures, so they're
more likely the cause of problems with electrical "gremlins" and
various air leaks being par for the course.

> Sure water is bad from lots of perspectives but so is
> too much fuel or not enough etc

> What boost did you say you are running ?

Zero.

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From bcroe at juno.com  Sun Dec 22 23:02:49 2002
From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:02:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Individual cylinder retard
Message-ID: 

There is no magic to different retard for different cylinders.
Use a counter equal to the number of cylinders and count 
ignition pulses.  Count to 8 for a V8, 6 for a 6, etc.  If a 
knock is detected when the counter says 5, make a note 
to retard the ignition pulse a bit more each time 5 comes 
up.  Same process for every other count/cylinder.

The retard circuitry in my J & S doesn't know which ACTUAL 
cylinder is which.  It just knows to retard the one which 
knocks every time it comes around.  It even has an output 
to tell the maximum retard, too bad you can't tell by cylinder.  Of 
course there are switches to set, to tell it how many cylinders.

If you have waste fire coils, you need in effect a knock retard 
system for each coil.  In that case you can tell within 2 
cylinders, which one is knocking.  You would need something 
on the order of a cam sensor input to determine an actual 
cylinder.

Usually the tendency of individual cylinders to knock is rather 
uneven.  The beauty of the J & S is that you can keep all other 
cylinders at/near peak power and efficiency, while retarding 
the offender(s).  The other problems of sorting knocks from 
noise are still there.

Bruce Roe



21 Dec 2002 Nick Starai  writes:
> > how do you know which cylinder to retard by how much 
> > - especially at higher rpms, is there a low
> > rpm cutoff for this algorithm ?

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From true at ItsYourDomain.com  Sun Dec 22 23:31:33 2002
From: true at ItsYourDomain.com (Nick Starai)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:31:33 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Are you sure the Safeguard uses a DSP?
Message-ID: 

> Nick,
> You said....
>
> >The J&S uses DSP. Other then being disabled under 1500 RPM, It connects
> >to TPS and disables itself on de-acceleration where the engine is more
> >prone to pickup piston slap as knock.

Other then being told it does DSP from a knowledgable source -- I'm
not specifically sure. I'm sure you checked the homepage as I did, and I
did not find any info regarding how the unit works. I dont know what
processor he uses. I'll email him to verify the DSP.

> On another note, does it really matter if we pull timing on de-acceleration?
> Have you verified that his unit disables under TPS closure?

I don't see why timing retard on deaccel would matter. I've never seen my
unit retard the timing with no throttle...how could I test? :)


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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 22 23:31:33 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:31:33 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Timing Advance Curve?
Message-ID: 

On Sun, Dec 22, 2002 at 01:18:29PM -0000, Hugh Keir wrote:
> With reference to pump gas, please explian why it is normal to run
> more advanced ignition timing on a high octane fuel, it suggests
> to me that the process of igniting and burning the fuel is slower
> than with the low octane offering.

Greater advance produces a higher peak pressure closer to (just
after) TDC that (generally) results in greater torque. 

Retarding the spark produces not only combustion into a greater
combustion chamber volume as it's later after TDC; but the piston is
also moving down at greater velocity providing a more-rapidly
expanding volume into which the end-gas can move as it tends to be
compressed by the advancing flame front.

The force required to move the piston further down a given amount is
also less due to the mechanical efficiency of turning the crank.

The result is that lower peak pressures are "seen" by the end-gas,
reducing the likelihood of detonation.

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 23 04:24:42 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:24:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

At 07:09 AM 23/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>Mine's not a turbo engine.

mmm Well OK, then I interpret you are after max ignition advance
as a fuel economy measure and havent modded the chamber or
built an engine from parts so arent facing a high/unclear CR
issue which necessitates highest octane... ?

If that were the case, then I'm not sure max economy would be
consistent with max ignition advance *just prior to detonation*,
there may well be a shifting 'window of opportunity' etc.

And it depends a lot on the ECU and its mapping, changing the
base timing may do very little to overal economy, remapping
the ECU will likely give you more economy gains at the expense
of driveability.

There seems to be some anecdotal evidence and I seem to recall
observations from others on this list that max power wont
necessarily happen where ignition is advanced to just before
the point of detonation.

How about extractors, using that with ULP might well be (in the
long run) cheaper than BP 98 and high ignition advance ?

You also mentioned you want the engine to last another 250,000K
or so - well your aim of max ignition advance before detonation
may be inconsistent with that due to the 'silent detonation'
issue which robs power just prior to readily noticable detonation
and may stress the rod bearings etc !

>Besides; the base engine of a road car shouldn't need a rebuilt
>nowadays until well over 300,000 km. Turbo and exhaust probably will
>require replacement at that stage in any sort of performance
>application.  Various bits of plastic in the engine compartment tend
>to be come brittle after 5000 hours at high temperatures, so they're
>more likely the cause of problems with electrical "gremlins" and
>various air leaks being par for the course.

For N/A thats fairly normal. All those people I know who run
turbo engines with fair power output tend to rebuild after
250,000K - I'm doing another engine/head in next 3 months in
preparation for some more serious power and my engines done
about 235,000K but was thrashed a few times when it was stolen
and the previous owner was a bit erratic. After a few mods
 I'm now getting about 170Kw (flyhweel) but aiming for 320 - 370Kw
(flywheel) in the next build. Even at the lower power I wouldnt be
comfortable reliability wise after 300,000K.

I'm curious what your engine configuration is and what your
objective re ignition advance is ?

rgds

mike


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From priorea at purdue.edu  Mon Dec 23 05:05:51 2002
From: priorea at purdue.edu (priorea at purdue.edu)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:05:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV help
Message-ID: 

Hey guys - First post, I'm Anthony Priore from Des Plaines, IL.  Project is an 
EEC-IV onto a Chrysler 440.  I've been a member of the list for a couple of 
weeks now (just reading), and you guys really know your stuff!!!!

My hair-brained scheme is coming together, and I need some help bringing it all 
in.  I have all of the 'physical' requirements fulfilled (I've got the Ford 
distributor to fit, and have the manifold setup for injectors and a TB).  I 
have a computer and a dash harness.  I know I'll need the MAF sensor and its 4 
wire harness, along with a fuel system and sensors / relays.

My questions so far are: what parts of the harness can I cut out?  The harness 
has connections for all sorts of stuff (like airbags, etc), and I want to know 
what connections I can eliminate without the computer flipping out.  My goal is 
to strip it down to the point that it resembles the Painless 'Race' harness, 
with all but the vital functions eliminated.

Also, any archived tech / info that anyone has on EEC-ing a previously 
carbureted car is gladly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Anthony

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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 23 05:28:14 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 02:28:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Dec 23, 2002 at 12:39:13PM +0000, Mike wrote:
> At 07:09 AM 23/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
> >Mine's not a turbo engine.

> mmm Well OK, then I interpret you are after max ignition advance
> as a fuel economy measure and havent modded the chamber or
> built an engine from parts so arent facing a high/unclear CR
> issue which necessitates highest octane... ?

I'm not looking for maximum economy - I'm pretty much getting that
anyway. The aim is to reduce pinging and possibly knock that causes
the ECU to retard timing from it's target, resulting in a drop in
output torque. An improvement in economy is expected as a
side-effect.

No modifications inside the head. The engine was stock-finnicky.
ECU is stock - very difficult to get any modifications done for
ADR-spec'ed Digifant. The only changes on the car are a modified
filter box, K&N filter element, a slightly warmer camshaft and a
tweak on the spring pressure of the air flow meter.

Engine management is mostly closed-loop so even changing the fuel
pressure regulator didn't increase fuelling.

> If that were the case, then I'm not sure max economy would be
> consistent with max ignition advance *just prior to detonation*,
> there may well be a shifting 'window of opportunity' etc.

> And it depends a lot on the ECU and its mapping, changing the
> base timing may do very little to overal economy, remapping
> the ECU will likely give you more economy gains at the expense
> of driveability.

Changing the base timing by up to 10 degrees changes nothing as far
as detonation is concerned; it'll still advance timing until the
onset of knock.

> There seems to be some anecdotal evidence and I seem to recall
> observations from others on this list that max power wont
> necessarily happen where ignition is advanced to just before
> the point of detonation.

Depends on *many* factors. 

> How about extractors, using that with ULP might well be (in the
> long run) cheaper than BP 98 and high ignition advance ?

I've spent the last 5 years of my spare time looking and waiting for
extractors for my car... no luck. Looks like I'll have to go
overseas, buy them, put them on a pallet and ship them back home.

If I use normal ULP, the 7c/litre saving is offset by a 10 to 15%
increase in fuel consumption. And then there's the crap in the fuel
that gums up injectors to they need a "dose" every 15,000km as
well... not been required since 99% of the fuel used has been 98.

> You also mentioned you want the engine to last another 250,000K
> or so - well your aim of max ignition advance before detonation
> may be inconsistent with that due to the 'silent detonation'
> issue which robs power just prior to readily noticable detonation
> and may stress the rod bearings etc !

Well, the car's been "pinging for 267,000km" and so far there's no
problem to be seen. When the head was removed after I blew a gasket
(selected 2nd instead of 4th gear approaching Shell) at around
160,000km, the tops of the pistons and the head showed no evidence
of damage.

> I'm curious what your engine configuration is and what your
> objective re ignition advance is ?

To stop the knock/ping and let the ECU reach it's nominal target for
advance. It seems to do that at certain times anyway; depending on
conditions.

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 23 06:32:12 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 03:32:12 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

At 01:35 PM 23/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>I'm not looking for maximum economy - I'm pretty much getting that
>anyway. The aim is to reduce pinging and possibly knock that causes
>the ECU to retard timing from it's target, resulting in a drop in
>output torque. An improvement in economy is expected as a
>side-effect.

mmmm OK, I take it you mean the ECU reaches its own max advance
by virtue of a knock sensor - which we assume is operating correctly
(I say that as these are high impedance devices and dont need much
in way of connector contamination to go a little haywire), though
its weird an ECU would be arranged to keep advancing until knock
on a production car ! 

>No modifications inside the head. The engine was stock-finnicky.
>ECU is stock - very difficult to get any modifications done for
>ADR-spec'ed Digifant. The only changes on the car are a modified
>filter box, K&N filter element, a slightly warmer camshaft and a
>tweak on the spring pressure of the air flow meter.

Eeeek - You get much better performance going for a hot wire type
AFM than the vane types ! If I recall the factory AFM on my VL
turbo is a pretty much generic Bosch type in that it was intended
to replace many vane types - I have a spare which you are welcome
to try (you are in PErth?)  - the pin configuration may well
be similar, you only need to put in a burn cycle ?

>Engine management is mostly closed-loop so even changing the fuel
>pressure regulator didn't increase fuelling.

So why did you tweak the spring on the AFM, you did make the
spring a little weaker - right ?

Bear in mind most ECU's are designed to have only minimal shift
from initial settings so as to avoid wild fluctuations affecting
overall stability. So if you start out quite lean then the ECU
may not have enough opportuntiy to make it richer, hence you
are hearing ping ! I've messed with mine to some degree and found
that it won't change fueling by more than about 8% from the
base settings - ie. It will try then hits an aysmptote. So
as long as I set it up to a median then it can go a little
lean or rich as needed but wont go far from the base settings.

There is an adjustment pot on my AFM (which goes only to the
ECU) which is a rich/lean trim and this has about a 15% affect
(or maybe a little mroe) on ECU injection DC - its a 22 turn pot.

>Changing the base timing by up to 10 degrees changes nothing as far
>as detonation is concerned; it'll still advance timing until the
>onset of knock.

Thats a little strange, you are saying the ECU is designed/programmed
to keep advancing timing until it detects knock - how long does it
keep it there, or does it 'try again' a bit more etc etc ?

>I've spent the last 5 years of my spare time looking and waiting for
>extractors for my car... no luck. Looks like I'll have to go
>overseas, buy them, put them on a pallet and ship them back home.

hrrrmmm, they are not difficult to make, I had a 3" full exhaust
system made just a few months ago for my car by 'Exhausts r us'
in Osborne Park - ended up with full stainless steel and new cat
along with dump pipe etc etc. The main guy there is Dale who often
makes custom extractors for several non Australian cars. In about
6 - 8 months I'll be looking seriously at a twin turbo setup and
he'll likely be doing the manfiold. They are a bit idiosyncratic
but the best people seem to share that trait but, he wont 'jerk
you around' and I had maintenance done on it (free) after damage from
a 1800km drive when going to/from Monkey Mia with a full load
of gear and 4 passengers!

>If I use normal ULP, the 7c/litre saving is offset by a 10 to 15%
>increase in fuel consumption. And then there's the crap in the fuel
>that gums up injectors to they need a "dose" every 15,000km as
>well... not been required since 99% of the fuel used has been 98.

Did you do a double blind trial ;-)

Its amazing how much of the economy gain is defined by rate of
change of foot pressure, know anyone with a dyno and fuel
consumption test setup ?

I 'seem' to get about a 5 - 10% improvement in economy when
going from ULP to Premium but havent noticed much at all when
going from Premium to BP 98 - havent tried optimax yet - partly
because here in Perth there arent many outlets.

>Well, the car's been "pinging for 267,000km" and so far there's no
>problem to be seen. When the head was removed after I blew a gasket
>(selected 2nd instead of 4th gear approaching Shell) at around
>160,000km, the tops of the pistons and the head showed no evidence
>of damage.

Nice bit of irony there, no problems after 267,000K. But blew
a head gasket - huh ?

The head gasket is the weakest - did you retorque it after it
was first put in - I did mine after 1000K of a new head some
2 years ago and yes all the head bolts were showing different
settings - trick was to release by 1/2 turn before retorquing.

CLearly you are not getting major ping thats enough to damage
pistons (or rings perhaps), but enough to weaken the gasket
seal - so I 'feel' its something else thats happening here !

>> I'm curious what your engine configuration is and what your
>> objective re ignition advance is ?
>
>To stop the knock/ping and let the ECU reach it's nominal target for
>advance. It seems to do that at certain times anyway; depending on
>conditions.

I wonder if there isnt something else thats occuring here,

i mean you've 'tweaked' the spring in your vane AFM and assume
the ECU has wide range over which to control fueling.

What you may have here is a combination that results in the
ECU not being able to fuel because its base is out of its
median control range ?

Do you have a TPS - with functioning acceleration sense,
ie Rate of change.

Have you looked at the injector duty cycle change when
in stead state cruise and how this changes between fuels
for the same cruise conditions ?

What sort of plugs are you using ?

I used to use the 'split-fire' until I melted the ends off
those in chambers 5 and 6, went to bosch 4-point and noticed
not only an improvement in economy but much less ping. The
metal hanging off the Splitfire seems like a disaster waiting
to happen for preignition issues, ie. Sharp pointy ends
where its split in comparison with the bosch 4-point which
I can run 10.5psi in winter versus no more than 9.5psi
boost on the splitfires when I tried a new set in last July...

Just occured to me, have you changed/upgraded the capacitor
which is near the ignition coil, ie The one which goes from
coil +ve to ground. I had an odd problem for a few months
with weird ping, octane didnt change a dman thing, ended
up taking out the 470pF suppressor - changed it for an 8uF
Bosch can cap in the same position - problem solved like
chalk and cheese. The old cap however didnt show any leakage
but did change its capacity by 30% when heated !

In fact the more I think of it - this could well be one
of your problems, because if this cap is flakey then it
might well be enough to push the ECU over the end so
to speak into high retard territory - how olds the cap ?

Even though that part of the circuit only really gets ignition
voltage, I put in a 250v AC rated 8uF industrial cap and the
difference was more than marked, much more stable at 4000-
6000 rpm then it ever was - even to break traction at WOT
on a hill in 2nd in an automatic !


rgds

mike


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 23 07:10:14 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:10:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #427 - 13 msgs
Message-ID: 

This was a little while back and my friend was so 'put out'
after he cooled down and spoke to a lawyer he wanted nothing
more to do with *any* additive company... If I pressed him
on this it would open old wounds and I know you would not
get a relaxed response, there is nothing else you can discern
from his usage  He runs a diesel
engine advisory firm and found other people with anecdotal
evidence of problems with sludges etc So he was even less
interested in getting involved with disputes and slanging matches.

The thing is what compelling evidence is there that the
metal particles *wont* congeal - when it is in their physical
and chemical nature to do exactly that !  ?

Think about it, Lead and Copper are ionic metallic elements
that have a predisposition to clump togther and you'd need
some luck to have them stay separate - especially in say the
gear type oil pumps, that is more than likely to compress the
particles togther - with nothing in the non-ionic compounds
in oil to separate them again !

Also, copper forms a *very* hygroscopic compound with
nitrates which you will find in blowby gases !

Copper Nitrate is so badly hygroscopic that a dry crystal
will melt in its own agglomerated fluid - and you want
that floating around in an engine - no way hose-aye !

Also Copper carbonate is a tad abrasive and that is
another compound that can easily form from blowby 

No amount of engine preparation that I've seen will
instill any degree of comfort for the addition of
lead or copper particles *especially* when there is
no compelling evidence of a 'force' or compound to
keep them from congealing - except the income derived
from selling them...

The only thing I add/do to my turbo engine is a small
amount of wynns oil thickener and an oil change each
3000-4000K with Mobil 1 synthetic, although my engine
has done some 230,000K or so it doesnt rattle or
hiccup mechanically and its tuned to give about 170KW
at the flyhweel...

rgds

mike



At 09:34 PM 19/12/2002 +1100, you wrote:
>Mike,
>    Thank you, your comments are of interest and potential concern.
>I would be interested to communicate with your acquaintance on this 
>matter to hear first hand of his experience from which I can then pose 
>some questions back to Pro-Ma directly. I would be happy for you to pass 
>my email address to him for this purpose.
>
>    Some points which may be relevant. Pro-Ma recommends:
>1. Not to add the Oil additive to new or re-conditioned engines which 
>have done less than 5000km.
>2. Not to add it to engines which use very light oils
>3. Not to add it in excess of the recommended dosage.
>4. Mix thoroughly with the last litre of oil before adding.
>5. Immediately after adding, run the engine for at least 15-30 mins 
>before shutdown.( I normally do an oil change immediately before I have 
>to drive somewhere which is going to take about that time).
>
>This was first added to my cars at 300,000km and 200,000km respectively.
>
>Your friend's experience obviously makes no comment about the Grease 
>product.
>
>The particles by the way are in the range 1-10 microns.
>
>I agree with you thoroughly regarding using friends and acquaintenances 
>as a meal ticket which is precisely why I am not in this as a business.
>Friendships are far too valuable to abuse in that way.
>The subject only comes up when someone asks a pointed question, ie the 
>wheel rolling resistance question on list, and the follow on questions 
>from that, or if/when someone sees me using it.
>
>    So again I appreciate your input and would like to follow up on it, 
>if that is at all possible.
>
>Best Regards and a safe Christmas to all - remember the reason for the 
>season!
>Bill
>
>
>>Message: 1
>>Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 05:11:27
>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>From: Mike 
>>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #416 - 9 msgs
>>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>
>>At 08:56 PM 18/12/2002 +1100, you wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>Mike,
>>>   The data sheet says "Spherical micrometallic particles"
>>>Both Lead and Copper micro spheres are in suspension in the grease or 
>>>oil base (depending on the application).
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>I know someone who used to have a Honda Prelude, his engine blew
>>as his oil galleries were filled with a greyish sludge and he had
>>been a rigorous promar user for 9 years with his car from new,
>>dare I say it, he was not impressed and considered seriously
>>legal options.
>>Since then he uses the manufacturer recommended
>>oils in his new cars and has never had a problem with metallic
>>congealed sludge occluding his oil galleries.
>>
>>If there was anything positive in the long term with adding
>>metallic particles to oil which *didnt* congeal into masses
>>of junk causing blocking of oil galleries then I think by now
>>the auto manufacturers would have taken it on board.
>>
>>I have never seen one auto manufacturer endorse the practice
>>of adding 'microparticles' of metal into oil, when there is
>>no chemical basis for assuming they *wont* congeal into lumps.
>>
>>With the pressures exerted by (for example) the crank against
>>the bearings - what suggests these extreme pressures *wont*
>>cause those metallic particles to be pressed together and
>>squeeze into the small galleries in the bearings and stay there ?
>>
>>>From a psychological perspective people will always find
>>anecdotal and circumstantial incidents to add to their endeavours
>>as if its evidence. The modern internal combustion engine has
>>a great capacity for being abused by the addition of so called
>>additives and still manage to function and people misinterpret
>>its ability to continue to function as proof the additives
>>are doing their job.
>>
>>The practice of MLM where people are 'driven' to make business
>>with and of their closest associates blurs the issue of integrity
>>and is a disgusting expectation and one of manipulation, when
>>every friend they encounter becomes another meal ticket. And to use
>>questionable chemistry and physics as the basis in an industry
>>that is very well researched has me dissapointed in the level
>>of intellectual heights the human race has reached.
>>
>>What is the compelling evidence there is a chemical imperative
>>the metallic particles will *not* eventually become congealed ?
>>
>>rgds
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>Rgds
>>
>>mike
>>  
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From allaboutspeed at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 23 07:43:18 2002
From: allaboutspeed at hotmail.com (Donnie Freichels)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 04:43:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] eprom/programing questions
Message-ID: 


ok i have a pocket programmer and im trying to program a 27c128,the software 
keeps telling me that it cant program it.i have tried abou t5 different 
27c128 and no go,so i tried to change the settings on the pocket programer 
to a 27c256 and it programs it.the problem is i only have one of these  
ecu's and im not trying to fry it.

the first question is does any one that the same problem with there 
programer?

the next one is can i use a 27c256 eprom in a ecu that has a 27c128 in it 
from the factory. my understanding it that the last three numbers are the 
amount of memory it has .if so i would think i could use a chip with more 
memory.
well im pretty good at tuning cars but i have no clue when i run into a 
problem of such.if any one has a clue please let me know,or point me in the 
right way atlest

thank you don freichels




From: Mike 
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
>Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:47:55
>
>At 01:35 PM 23/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
> >I'm not looking for maximum economy - I'm pretty much getting that
> >anyway. The aim is to reduce pinging and possibly knock that causes
> >the ECU to retard timing from it's target, resulting in a drop in
> >output torque. An improvement in economy is expected as a
> >side-effect.
>
>mmmm OK, I take it you mean the ECU reaches its own max advance
>by virtue of a knock sensor - which we assume is operating correctly
>(I say that as these are high impedance devices and dont need much
>in way of connector contamination to go a little haywire), though
>its weird an ECU would be arranged to keep advancing until knock
>on a production car ! 
>
> >No modifications inside the head. The engine was stock-finnicky.
> >ECU is stock - very difficult to get any modifications done for
> >ADR-spec'ed Digifant. The only changes on the car are a modified
> >filter box, K&N filter element, a slightly warmer camshaft and a
> >tweak on the spring pressure of the air flow meter.
>
>Eeeek - You get much better performance going for a hot wire type
>AFM than the vane types ! If I recall the factory AFM on my VL
>turbo is a pretty much generic Bosch type in that it was intended
>to replace many vane types - I have a spare which you are welcome
>to try (you are in PErth?)  - the pin configuration may well
>be similar, you only need to put in a burn cycle ?
>
> >Engine management is mostly closed-loop so even changing the fuel
> >pressure regulator didn't increase fuelling.
>
>So why did you tweak the spring on the AFM, you did make the
>spring a little weaker - right ?
>
>Bear in mind most ECU's are designed to have only minimal shift
>from initial settings so as to avoid wild fluctuations affecting
>overall stability. So if you start out quite lean then the ECU
>may not have enough opportuntiy to make it richer, hence you
>are hearing ping ! I've messed with mine to some degree and found
>that it won't change fueling by more than about 8% from the
>base settings - ie. It will try then hits an aysmptote. So
>as long as I set it up to a median then it can go a little
>lean or rich as needed but wont go far from the base settings.
>
>There is an adjustment pot on my AFM (which goes only to the
>ECU) which is a rich/lean trim and this has about a 15% affect
>(or maybe a little mroe) on ECU injection DC - its a 22 turn pot.
>
> >Changing the base timing by up to 10 degrees changes nothing as far
> >as detonation is concerned; it'll still advance timing until the
> >onset of knock.
>
>Thats a little strange, you are saying the ECU is designed/programmed
>to keep advancing timing until it detects knock - how long does it
>keep it there, or does it 'try again' a bit more etc etc ?
>
> >I've spent the last 5 years of my spare time looking and waiting for
> >extractors for my car... no luck. Looks like I'll have to go
> >overseas, buy them, put them on a pallet and ship them back home.
>
>hrrrmmm, they are not difficult to make, I had a 3" full exhaust
>system made just a few months ago for my car by 'Exhausts r us'
>in Osborne Park - ended up with full stainless steel and new cat
>along with dump pipe etc etc. The main guy there is Dale who often
>makes custom extractors for several non Australian cars. In about
>6 - 8 months I'll be looking seriously at a twin turbo setup and
>he'll likely be doing the manfiold. They are a bit idiosyncratic
>but the best people seem to share that trait but, he wont 'jerk
>you around' and I had maintenance done on it (free) after damage from
>a 1800km drive when going to/from Monkey Mia with a full load
>of gear and 4 passengers!
>
> >If I use normal ULP, the 7c/litre saving is offset by a 10 to 15%
> >increase in fuel consumption. And then there's the crap in the fuel
> >that gums up injectors to they need a "dose" every 15,000km as
> >well... not been required since 99% of the fuel used has been 98.
>
>Did you do a double blind trial ;-)
>
>Its amazing how much of the economy gain is defined by rate of
>change of foot pressure, know anyone with a dyno and fuel
>consumption test setup ?
>
>I 'seem' to get about a 5 - 10% improvement in economy when
>going from ULP to Premium but havent noticed much at all when
>going from Premium to BP 98 - havent tried optimax yet - partly
>because here in Perth there arent many outlets.
>
> >Well, the car's been "pinging for 267,000km" and so far there's no
> >problem to be seen. When the head was removed after I blew a gasket
> >(selected 2nd instead of 4th gear approaching Shell) at around
> >160,000km, the tops of the pistons and the head showed no evidence
> >of damage.
>
>Nice bit of irony there, no problems after 267,000K. But blew
>a head gasket - huh ?
>
>The head gasket is the weakest - did you retorque it after it
>was first put in - I did mine after 1000K of a new head some
>2 years ago and yes all the head bolts were showing different
>settings - trick was to release by 1/2 turn before retorquing.
>
>CLearly you are not getting major ping thats enough to damage
>pistons (or rings perhaps), but enough to weaken the gasket
>seal - so I 'feel' its something else thats happening here !
>
> >> I'm curious what your engine configuration is and what your
> >> objective re ignition advance is ?
> >
> >To stop the knock/ping and let the ECU reach it's nominal target for
> >advance. It seems to do that at certain times anyway; depending on
> >conditions.
>
>I wonder if there isnt something else thats occuring here,
>
>i mean you've 'tweaked' the spring in your vane AFM and assume
>the ECU has wide range over which to control fueling.
>
>What you may have here is a combination that results in the
>ECU not being able to fuel because its base is out of its
>median control range ?
>
>Do you have a TPS - with functioning acceleration sense,
>ie Rate of change.
>
>Have you looked at the injector duty cycle change when
>in stead state cruise and how this changes between fuels
>for the same cruise conditions ?
>
>What sort of plugs are you using ?
>
>I used to use the 'split-fire' until I melted the ends off
>those in chambers 5 and 6, went to bosch 4-point and noticed
>not only an improvement in economy but much less ping. The
>metal hanging off the Splitfire seems like a disaster waiting
>to happen for preignition issues, ie. Sharp pointy ends
>where its split in comparison with the bosch 4-point which
>I can run 10.5psi in winter versus no more than 9.5psi
>boost on the splitfires when I tried a new set in last July...
>
>Just occured to me, have you changed/upgraded the capacitor
>which is near the ignition coil, ie The one which goes from
>coil +ve to ground. I had an odd problem for a few months
>with weird ping, octane didnt change a dman thing, ended
>up taking out the 470pF suppressor - changed it for an 8uF
>Bosch can cap in the same position - problem solved like
>chalk and cheese. The old cap however didnt show any leakage
>but did change its capacity by 30% when heated !
>
>In fact the more I think of it - this could well be one
>of your problems, because if this cap is flakey then it
>might well be enough to push the ECU over the end so
>to speak into high retard territory - how olds the cap ?
>
>Even though that part of the circuit only really gets ignition
>voltage, I put in a 250v AC rated 8uF industrial cap and the
>difference was more than marked, much more stable at 4000-
>6000 rpm then it ever was - even to break traction at WOT
>on a hill in 2nd in an automatic !
>
>
>rgds
>
>mike
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From clay0052 at umn.edu  Mon Dec 23 08:55:20 2002
From: clay0052 at umn.edu (M. Claywell)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 05:55:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Hello,

In regards to F1 guys running high water temps (~ 125 Celsius), one of the
main reasons they do it is to reduce aero drag. They are likely down on
power (from what they could make if they ran a lower water temp), but are
also saving on aero drag. The higher temp differential between the air and
water temperature will allow higher heat transfer rate, thus require
smaller radiator, thus lower drag. I think it was two years ago or so, that
the FIA limited the maximum pressure that F1 cars could pressurize their
cooling systems to. I believe it is around 50 psi. Running higher pressures
would allow even higher water temps if they desired, and if it proved
useable, as far as the trade off between aero drag and power goes.

Cheers,
Mark



On 20 Dec 2002, Dave Dahlgren wrote:
> The Beemer I am sure is tuned for emissions and mileage not peak power..
The
> compression ratio is probably a little on the high side for 87 octane as
well
> but that will make for a greater efficiency at part throttle.. Emission
and
> fleet mileage.. They have lots of compromises that race engines never
see. If
> you build an engine with too much compression for the fuel available you
can
> pull timing out at WOT to stay out of trouble but it will never run as
well
> as
> if it had the right fuel. For all you know the BMW might run best on 98
> octane
> that is not available in the USA at the pump.. Easiest test would be to
add
> some
> 103 octane unleaded race gas and see how she goes..
> 
> As far as head temp goes I never suggested a heat riser in the way of
sharp
> edges was ok. It will always be a problem, 40 degrress of coolant temp
will
> not
> make the sharp edge show up though. A long pull on the dyno sure will
though.
> You can not find it in 1 second on a dyno jet though might take about 3
or 4
> seconds under full load..
> 
> If the F1 guys needed to have the engine run cooler do you really think
they
> would say nope can't do it guess we will just be 30 hp down.. Face a
couple
> of
> million to solve the problem is pocket change to them..
> 
> Why not beryllium.. It makes real good valve seats.
> 
> Dave
> 
> William Shurvinton wrote:
> 
> > No: dave's point: Best power is way off detonation in a race engine. My
> > question, why does a modern road car gain 10HP when run on high octane
> (real
> > test, think it was a BMW) when all it has to go on is the knock sensor.
> > Inference: it must be running close to knock all the time.
> > 
> > > > and race cars (F1 in particular) only ran so hot
> > > > because the aero package demanded a limited rad area
> > > > and air flow. Hotter was more efficient.
> > >
> > > With the engine components themselves, you are limited
> > > by how much heat the materials involved can withstand
> > > before weakening.  With highly-stressed engine parts
> > > that are built to JUST withstand the stresses of a
> > > race and be as light as possible, managing temperature
> > > is CRITICAL.  So there are conflicting needs; the need
> > > to keep the engine structurally sound, and the
> > > "desire" to have it as hot as possible in the
> > > combustion chamber.
> > 
> >  I quoted F1 because it is an extreme case. The engines are run at
> > riduculous coolant temps and revs and until recently were billet
> unobtanium.
> > I like beryllium in space apps, but not sure I want it in my car.
However
> > the coolant temp in this case is due to not being able to get the heat
out,
> > not because the engine liked the heat.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 



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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 23 09:29:14 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 06:29:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- "M. Claywell"  wrote:

> In regards to F1 guys running high water temps (~
> 125 Celsius), one of the main reasons they do it is
> to reduce aero drag. They are likely down on
> power (from what they could make if they ran a lower
> water temp), but are also saving on aero drag.

Since they were traction-limited by their tires even
before they went to grooved ones, it seems like a
sound compromise to me, especially on tracks with long
straights.  It coudl also be used to allow them to run
more wing with the same drag as bigger radiators, thus
allowing more downforce on short tracks.

Another case of "horses for courses"...

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 23 10:17:13 2002
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 07:17:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

On Mon, Dec 23, 2002 at 02:47:55PM +0000, Mike wrote:
> At 01:35 PM 23/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
> >I'm not looking for maximum economy - I'm pretty much getting that
> >anyway. The aim is to reduce pinging and possibly knock that causes
> >the ECU to retard timing from it's target, resulting in a drop in
> >output torque. An improvement in economy is expected as a
> >side-effect.

> mmmm OK, I take it you mean the ECU reaches its own max advance
> by virtue of a knock sensor - which we assume is operating correctly
> (I say that as these are high impedance devices and dont need much
> in way of connector contamination to go a little haywire), though
> its weird an ECU would be arranged to keep advancing until knock
> on a production car ! 

Well, advance at least until as far as the desired set-point.
VW made a big thing about Digifant being able to adapt to a wide
range of fuels. So it _might_ be that they do advance to the onset
of knock and then back off for steady-state.

> >No modifications inside the head. The engine was stock-finnicky.
> >ECU is stock - very difficult to get any modifications done for
> >ADR-spec'ed Digifant. The only changes on the car are a modified
> >filter box, K&N filter element, a slightly warmer camshaft and a
> >tweak on the spring pressure of the air flow meter.

> Eeeek - You get much better performance going for a hot wire type
> AFM than the vane types ! If I recall the factory AFM on my VL

It's not a standard Bosch AFM but a special version for VW's
Digifant. Linearised output IIRC.

> turbo is a pretty much generic Bosch type in that it was intended
> to replace many vane types - I have a spare which you are welcome
> to try (you are in PErth?)  - the pin configuration may well
> be similar, you only need to put in a burn cycle ?

One of the "projects" that I've had to shelve because of dire lack
of free time and money, was to "map" the output of the present AFM
against the now-cheap MAF by putting it in series (!!) with the aim
of eventually replacing the AFM with the MAF and a small processor
to handle the translation for what the ECU expects, provide an air
temperature "reading"; and to do the special handling of the MAF of
which the ECU is blissfully ignorant.

> >Engine management is mostly closed-loop so even changing the fuel
> >pressure regulator didn't increase fuelling.
> 
> So why did you tweak the spring on the AFM, you did make the
> spring a little weaker - right ?

Backed off 3 teeth on the pre-tension cog. The tip-in "response" lag
disappeared after that so I glued the cap back on... It's only for
dealing with transient enrichment anyway.

> Bear in mind most ECU's are designed to have only minimal shift
> from initial settings so as to avoid wild fluctuations affecting
> overall stability. So if you start out quite lean then the ECU

I don't know about the "minimal" fluctuations. I was able to drive
the car when the camshaft was installed retarded by 30 degrees...
no mean feat for any engine management system. For some reason, the
sub-contractor who pulled the head down to replace valve guides (the
head was off the block anyway), took the cam sprocket off the
camshaft. And then assembled it backwards... of course there were
"timing" marks on the wrong side of the sprocket. But not in the
right place.

> may not have enough opportuntiy to make it richer, hence you
> are hearing ping ! I've messed with mine to some degree and found
> that it won't change fueling by more than about 8% from the
> base settings - ie. It will try then hits an aysmptote. So
> as long as I set it up to a median then it can go a little
> lean or rich as needed but wont go far from the base settings.

Well, it's operating closed loop and the control algorithm on my car
tends to favour the lean side of stoich. That's steady-state
operations; which is not where the (audible) ping occurs anyway.

> There is an adjustment pot on my AFM (which goes only to the
> ECU) which is a rich/lean trim and this has about a 15% affect
> (or maybe a little mroe) on ECU injection DC - its a 22 turn pot.

That'd be the base CO adjustment.

> >Changing the base timing by up to 10 degrees changes nothing as far
> >as detonation is concerned; it'll still advance timing until the
> >onset of knock.
> 
> Thats a little strange, you are saying the ECU is designed/programmed
> to keep advancing timing until it detects knock - how long does it
> keep it there, or does it 'try again' a bit more etc etc ?

3 seconds or thereabouts when advancing in small steps and
"immediately" in large steps upon detecting knock - cylinder
selective.

> >I've spent the last 5 years of my spare time looking and waiting for
> >extractors for my car... no luck. Looks like I'll have to go
> >overseas, buy them, put them on a pallet and ship them back home.

> hrrrmmm, they are not difficult to make, I had a 3" full exhaust
> system made just a few months ago for my car by 'Exhausts r us' in
> Osborne Park - ended up with full stainless steel and new cat
> along with dump pipe etc etc. The main guy there is Dale who often
> makes custom extractors for several non Australian cars. In about
> 6 - 8 months I'll be looking seriously at a twin turbo setup and
> he'll likely be doing the manfiold. They are a bit idiosyncratic
> but the best people seem to share that trait but, he wont 'jerk
> you around' and I had maintenance done on it (free) after damage
> from a 1800km drive when going to/from Monkey Mia with a full load
> of gear and 4 passengers!

Space behing the engine of a Golf is very tight and the steering
rack is quite close. All the LHD ones interfere with the steering
rack. What's more, the engine moves around a lot so there has to be
some flexible coupling; and it has to connect to the cat. converter
because I'm not too chuffed at the prospect of a $20,000 fine.

> >If I use normal ULP, the 7c/litre saving is offset by a 10 to 15%
> >increase in fuel consumption. And then there's the crap in the fuel
> >that gums up injectors to they need a "dose" every 15,000km as
> >well... not been required since 99% of the fuel used has been 98.

> Did you do a double blind trial ;-)

Ermm no... but I checked my fuel bills and consumption over 3 months
on different fuels - PULP was a big improvement; 98 made a small
difference again - as well as reducing audible ping to days when it
is too dry. Even with PULP, it'd ping most of the time.

> Its amazing how much of the economy gain is defined by rate of
> change of foot pressure, know anyone with a dyno and fuel

The foot pressure is probably as much, but for shorter periods
because I'm at a higher speed sooner when accelerating. This I've
tested from a standing start on a hill. Now hitting the sign at the
top at almost 100kmh, used to be just over 85kmh with ULP and over
90kmh with PULP.

> consumption test setup ?

They'd be inconclusive anyway; pretty much a waste because of day to
day variations. The only proper way to do it would be to put the car
in a controlled environment and run it in there.

> I 'seem' to get about a 5 - 10% improvement in economy when
> going from ULP to Premium but havent noticed much at all when
> going from Premium to BP 98 - havent tried optimax yet - partly
> because here in Perth there arent many outlets.

Not many? Are there _any_??

Price difference between 98 and PULP is usually only one or two
cents and the car seems happier (less audible ping and better
throttle response) so it's worth it to me.

> >Well, the car's been "pinging for 267,000km" and so far there's no
> >problem to be seen. When the head was removed after I blew a gasket
> >(selected 2nd instead of 4th gear approaching Shell) at around
> >160,000km, the tops of the pistons and the head showed no evidence
> >of damage.
> 
> Nice bit of irony there, no problems after 267,000K. But blew
> a head gasket - huh ?

Happens if you change into 2nd after redlining in 3rd! Rev counter
needle spun way past 7000 rpm before I pushed in the clutch again.
Big mistake on my part! Not the engine's fault by any means. It was
the nut behind the steering wheel.

It went more than 1000 rpm past the rev limiter.

And the synchros went in so easily too! :-(

> The head gasket is the weakest - did you retorque it after it
> was first put in - I did mine after 1000K of a new head some
> 2 years ago and yes all the head bolts were showing different
> settings - trick was to release by 1/2 turn before retorquing.

Not on a Golf. They're stretch bolts. If you loosen them, you have
to put in new ones. Well, you could upgrade to Raceware stuff and I
probably will next time the head needs to be done - I just didn't
want the car off the road for 2 weeks while the snazzy stuff makes
its way across the Pacific and through Customs.

> CLearly you are not getting major ping thats enough to damage
> pistons (or rings perhaps), but enough to weaken the gasket
> seal - so I 'feel' its something else thats happening here !

YOU try redlining in one gear and with the car doing about 120kmh,
start to ease out the clutch when in the next-lower gear.

That's massive abuse! And I was indeed fortunate to have still been
able to drive the car after the exercise; albeit with some
coolant-injection!

> I wonder if there isnt something else thats occuring here,
> 
> i mean you've 'tweaked' the spring in your vane AFM and assume
> the ECU has wide range over which to control fueling.

On transients. It's been fooled into thinking that there's a greater
inrush of air so it provides additional enrichment.

Steady-state and it reverts to (the lean side of) stoich.

> What you may have here is a combination that results in the
> ECU not being able to fuel because its base is out of its
> median control range ?

Only if it was made that way at the factory.

> Do you have a TPS - with functioning acceleration sense,
> ie Rate of change.

No TPS. Only idle and WOT switches.

> Have you looked at the injector duty cycle change when
> in stead state cruise and how this changes between fuels
> for the same cruise conditions ?

No... I don't have the diagnostic gear. Digifant is deaf and dumb,
so it doesn't provide any cap[ability to read that information.

> What sort of plugs are you using ?

Bosch Super 4. Brought in a set from the UK in 1997 to try and
haven't had a reason to use anything else.

> Just occured to me, have you changed/upgraded the capacitor
> which is near the ignition coil, ie The one which goes from
> coil +ve to ground. I had an odd problem for a few months

There's no capacitor there on my car; nor on the factory
current-flow diagrams for the car. Ignition is controlled by
Digifant using standard Bosch ignition amplifier.

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
 X   against HTML mail     | Copy me into your ~/.signature
/ \  and postings          | to help me spread!

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From info at kempower.be  Mon Dec 23 10:43:43 2002
From: info at kempower.be (Kempower Motorsport NV)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 07:43:43 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] eprom/programing questions
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2AA79.AFA0A220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From: "Donnie Freichels" 
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] eprom/programing questions
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:50:22 -0600
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org


ok i have a pocket programmer and im trying to program a 27c128,the =
software=20
keeps telling me that it cant program it.i have tried abou t5 different=20
27c128 and no go,so i tried to change the settings on the pocket =
programer=20
to a 27c256 and it programs it.the problem is i only have one of these =20
ecu's and im not trying to fry it.

the first question is does any one that the same problem with there=20
programer?

the next one is can i use a 27c256 eprom in a ecu that has a 27c128 in =
it=20
from the factory. my understanding it that the last three numbers are =
the=20
amount of memory it has .if so i would think i could use a chip with =
more=20
memory.
well im pretty good at tuning cars but i have no clue when i run into a=20
problem of such.if any one has a clue please let me know,or point me in =
the=20
right way atlest

thank you don freichels


Hallo,


You can use a 27C256 if You have problems to program a 27C128. The only =
thing You have to do is double Your software to fill a 27C256, because =
the processor will read in the second part of the 27C256 (adress 4000 to =
7FFF) instead of 27C128 (adress 0000 to 3FFF). The ECU will work with =
the 27C256.

Friendly Regards,


Ing. JAN KEMPYNCK
KEMPOWER motorsport N.V.
Klaverbladstraat 25
B-3560 LUMMEN
BELGIUM
TEL +32 13 522608
FAX +32 13 522220
e-mail : info at kempower.be
web : www.kempower.be

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2AA79.AFA0A220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









From: "Donnie=20
Freichels" <allaboutspeed at hotmail.com>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] eprom/programing questions
Date: Mon, =
23 Dec=20
2002 01:50:22 -0600
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org


ok i have a pocket programmer and im trying to program a =
27c128,the=20
software 
keeps telling me that it cant program it.i have tried abou =
t5=20
different 
27c128 and no go,so i tried to change the settings on the =
pocket=20
programer 
to a 27c256 and it programs it.the problem is i only have =
one of=20
these  
ecu's and im not trying to fry it.

the first =
question is=20
does any one that the same problem with there 
programer?

the =
next one=20
is can i use a 27c256 eprom in a ecu that has a 27c128 in it 
from =
the=20
factory. my understanding it that the last three numbers are the =

amount of=20
memory it has .if so i would think i could use a chip with more=20

memory.
well im pretty good at tuning cars but i have no clue =
when i run=20
into a 
problem of such.if any one has a clue please let me know,or =
point me=20
in the 
right way atlest

thank you don=20
freichels


 


Hallo,


 


 


You can use a 27C256 if You have =
problems to=20
program a 27C128. The only thing You have to do is double Your software =
to fill=20
a 27C256, because the processor will read in the second part of the =
27C256=20
(adress 4000 to 7FFF) instead of 27C128 (adress 0000 to 3FFF). The ECU =
will work=20
with the 27C256.


 


Friendly Regards,


 


 


Ing. JAN KEMPYNCK
KEMPOWER =
motorsport=20
N.V.
Klaverbladstraat 25
B-3560 LUMMEN
BELGIUM
TEL +32 13=20
522608
FAX +32 13 522220
e-mail : info at kempower.be
web : www.kempower.be


------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C2AA79.AFA0A220--



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From hs88s15 at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 23 13:36:54 2002
From: hs88s15 at hotmail.com (Dan Griffin)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:36:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] eprom/programing questions
Message-ID: 


The only time I had problems like you describe are when I forgot to plug in 
my programmer to ac outlet, although printer port was hooked up.. also when 
the chip wasent fully erased...



>
>
>ok i have a pocket programmer and im trying to program a 27c128,the 
>software keeps telling me that it cant program it.i have tried abou t5 
>different 27c128 and no go,so i tried to change the settings on the pocket 
>programer to a 27c256 and it programs it.the problem is i only have one of 
>these  ecu's and im not trying to fry it.
>
>the first question is does any one that the same problem with there 
>programer?
>



_________________________________________________________________
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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Mon Dec 23 17:34:06 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:34:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

So higher cooling system temp helps heat transfer from coolant -> radiator
as well as engine -> coolant? I thought only the latter was true.

Grant Beaty

----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Claywell" 
To: ; 
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


> Hello,
>
> In regards to F1 guys running high water temps (~ 125 Celsius), one of the
> main reasons they do it is to reduce aero drag. They are likely down on
> power (from what they could make if they ran a lower water temp), but are
> also saving on aero drag. The higher temp differential between the air and
> water temperature will allow higher heat transfer rate, thus require
> smaller radiator, thus lower drag. I think it was two years ago or so,
that
> the FIA limited the maximum pressure that F1 cars could pressurize their
> cooling systems to. I believe it is around 50 psi. Running higher
pressures
> would allow even higher water temps if they desired, and if it proved
> useable, as far as the trade off between aero drag and power goes.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>
>
> On 20 Dec 2002, Dave Dahlgren wrote:
> > The Beemer I am sure is tuned for emissions and mileage not peak power..
> The
> > compression ratio is probably a little on the high side for 87 octane as
> well
> > but that will make for a greater efficiency at part throttle.. Emission
> and
> > fleet mileage.. They have lots of compromises that race engines never
> see. If
> > you build an engine with too much compression for the fuel available you
> can
> > pull timing out at WOT to stay out of trouble but it will never run as
> well
> > as
> > if it had the right fuel. For all you know the BMW might run best on 98
> > octane
> > that is not available in the USA at the pump.. Easiest test would be to
> add
> > some
> > 103 octane unleaded race gas and see how she goes..
> >
> > As far as head temp goes I never suggested a heat riser in the way of
> sharp
> > edges was ok. It will always be a problem, 40 degrress of coolant temp
> will
> > not
> > make the sharp edge show up though. A long pull on the dyno sure will
> though.
> > You can not find it in 1 second on a dyno jet though might take about 3
> or 4
> > seconds under full load..
> >
> > If the F1 guys needed to have the engine run cooler do you really think
> they
> > would say nope can't do it guess we will just be 30 hp down.. Face a
> couple
> > of
> > million to solve the problem is pocket change to them..
> >
> > Why not beryllium.. It makes real good valve seats.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > William Shurvinton wrote:
> >
> > > No: dave's point: Best power is way off detonation in a race engine.
My
> > > question, why does a modern road car gain 10HP when run on high octane
> > (real
> > > test, think it was a BMW) when all it has to go on is the knock
sensor.
> > > Inference: it must be running close to knock all the time.
> > >
> > > > > and race cars (F1 in particular) only ran so hot
> > > > > because the aero package demanded a limited rad area
> > > > > and air flow. Hotter was more efficient.
> > > >
> > > > With the engine components themselves, you are limited
> > > > by how much heat the materials involved can withstand
> > > > before weakening.  With highly-stressed engine parts
> > > > that are built to JUST withstand the stresses of a
> > > > race and be as light as possible, managing temperature
> > > > is CRITICAL.  So there are conflicting needs; the need
> > > > to keep the engine structurally sound, and the
> > > > "desire" to have it as hot as possible in the
> > > > combustion chamber.
> > >
> > >  I quoted F1 because it is an extreme case. The engines are run at
> > > riduculous coolant temps and revs and until recently were billet
> > unobtanium.
> > > I like beryllium in space apps, but not sure I want it in my car.
> However
> > > the coolant temp in this case is due to not being able to get the heat
> out,
> > > not because the engine liked the heat.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Diy_efi mailing list
> > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



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From skulte at skulte.com  Mon Dec 23 17:48:10 2002
From: skulte at skulte.com (Andris Skulte)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:48:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Hotter coolant will have a greater temperature difference between coolant
and the ambient air, so a higher rate of heat transfer
(i.e. better). Think of it this way - a hot
cup of coffee cools down much faster to luke warm (120 deg to 80 deg) than
a luke warm cup to room temperature.

Andris/SPD

On Mon, 23 Dec 2002, Grant Beaty wrote:

> So higher cooling system temp helps heat transfer from coolant -> radiator
> as well as engine -> coolant? I thought only the latter was true.
> 
> Grant Beaty
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "M. Claywell" 
> To: ; 
> Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 2:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> >
> > In regards to F1 guys running high water temps (~ 125 Celsius), one of the
> > main reasons they do it is to reduce aero drag. They are likely down on
> > power (from what they could make if they ran a lower water temp), but are
> > also saving on aero drag. The higher temp differential between the air and
> > water temperature will allow higher heat transfer rate, thus require
> > smaller radiator, thus lower drag. I think it was two years ago or so,
> that
> > the FIA limited the maximum pressure that F1 cars could pressurize their
> > cooling systems to. I believe it is around 50 psi. Running higher
> pressures
> > would allow even higher water temps if they desired, and if it proved
> > useable, as far as the trade off between aero drag and power goes.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > On 20 Dec 2002, Dave Dahlgren wrote:
> > > The Beemer I am sure is tuned for emissions and mileage not peak power..
> > The
> > > compression ratio is probably a little on the high side for 87 octane as
> > well
> > > but that will make for a greater efficiency at part throttle.. Emission
> > and
> > > fleet mileage.. They have lots of compromises that race engines never
> > see. If
> > > you build an engine with too much compression for the fuel available you
> > can
> > > pull timing out at WOT to stay out of trouble but it will never run as
> > well
> > > as
> > > if it had the right fuel. For all you know the BMW might run best on 98
> > > octane
> > > that is not available in the USA at the pump.. Easiest test would be to
> > add
> > > some
> > > 103 octane unleaded race gas and see how she goes..
> > >
> > > As far as head temp goes I never suggested a heat riser in the way of
> > sharp
> > > edges was ok. It will always be a problem, 40 degrress of coolant temp
> > will
> > > not
> > > make the sharp edge show up though. A long pull on the dyno sure will
> > though.
> > > You can not find it in 1 second on a dyno jet though might take about 3
> > or 4
> > > seconds under full load..
> > >
> > > If the F1 guys needed to have the engine run cooler do you really think
> > they
> > > would say nope can't do it guess we will just be 30 hp down.. Face a
> > couple
> > > of
> > > million to solve the problem is pocket change to them..
> > >
> > > Why not beryllium.. It makes real good valve seats.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > William Shurvinton wrote:
> > >
> > > > No: dave's point: Best power is way off detonation in a race engine.
> My
> > > > question, why does a modern road car gain 10HP when run on high octane
> > > (real
> > > > test, think it was a BMW) when all it has to go on is the knock
> sensor.
> > > > Inference: it must be running close to knock all the time.
> > > >
> > > > > > and race cars (F1 in particular) only ran so hot
> > > > > > because the aero package demanded a limited rad area
> > > > > > and air flow. Hotter was more efficient.
> > > > >
> > > > > With the engine components themselves, you are limited
> > > > > by how much heat the materials involved can withstand
> > > > > before weakening.  With highly-stressed engine parts
> > > > > that are built to JUST withstand the stresses of a
> > > > > race and be as light as possible, managing temperature
> > > > > is CRITICAL.  So there are conflicting needs; the need
> > > > > to keep the engine structurally sound, and the
> > > > > "desire" to have it as hot as possible in the
> > > > > combustion chamber.
> > > >
> > > >  I quoted F1 because it is an extreme case. The engines are run at
> > > > riduculous coolant temps and revs and until recently were billet
> > > unobtanium.
> > > > I like beryllium in space apps, but not sure I want it in my car.
> > However
> > > > the coolant temp in this case is due to not being able to get the heat
> > out,
> > > > not because the engine liked the heat.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Diy_efi mailing list
> > > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Diy_efi mailing list
> > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 

------------------
Andris Skulte
Skulte Performance Designs
http://www.skulte.com  
Z28tt-89 IROC T56 DFI Twin Turbo


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From brian.j.geddes at intel.com  Mon Dec 23 18:00:55 2002
From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:00:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Speed Density fueling and throttle position
Message-ID: 

> Quickly changing the mass of air in the intake alters the=20
> air:fuel ratio
> within the intake.  Other things happen with this change. =20
> Fuel can lose
> energy and puddle.  If the manifold has enough volume, the mixture can
> backfire and pop out the tb. Fuel is usually added (like an=20
> accelerator
> pump) to cover these situations.  Fuel can be added based on=20
> TPS change,
> or MAP change, or both. =20

I was aware of this phenomenon, but neglected to mention it.  To =
clarify, the system I'm using has "accel pump" functions to add fuel =
based on delta-TP and delta-MAP.  So, this condition is already =
accounted for without an actual TP-position correction table.  Aside =
from transient conditions like this, are there any steady-state reasons =
for a TP-position correction table?

After re-reading my original email, I realized that my question was much =
more complicated than it needed to be.  So, I'll reword it:

On a speed-density system, if the throttle is open enough to allow equal =
pressure on both sides of the throttle, does opening it further make any =
difference to the fueling calculations?

Thanks,
- Brian

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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 23 20:54:09 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:54:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- Grant Beaty  wrote:

> So higher cooling system temp helps heat transfer
> from coolant -> radiator as well as engine ->
> coolant?

Yep.  That's physics for ya.  ;)  The larger the
differential between two temperatures, the faster the
heat transfer.

Fourier's Law: The heat flux resulting from thermal
conduction is proportional to the magnitude of the
temperature gradient and opposite to it in sign.

Since the thermal conductivity between a radiator's
metal and the air is the lowest thermal conductivity
of anything in the circuit, increasing coolant temps
by pumping more heat into the system from the cylinder
head WILL result in an increase in coolant temps,
because getting the heat out to the air is the
"hardest" part of the circuit.  But higher coolant
temps will shed more heat to the air than lower
coolant temps, and the opposite is also true for air
temps; it's the differential.  IT's also one of the
reasons vehicles are more likely to boil over in hot
weather, and why some people put cardboard in front of
part of their radiator in cold weather (although if
their thermostat is working properly, that's not
really necessary).

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From aaron.weigand at psab.af.mil  Mon Dec 23 22:02:01 2002
From: aaron.weigand at psab.af.mil (Weigand Aaron M SGT 434-8861)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:02:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV help
Message-ID: 

Anthony, you can have a chip burnt quite cheaply that will allow you to
eliminate anything you want to (and even specific to your application).  For
the most part these sensors are only going to trip the check engine light
rather than hurt performance.  I'm no guru for sure, hopefully others can
give you exact details.

Best of luck to you, Aaron.

-----Original Message-----
From: priorea at purdue.edu [mailto:priorea at purdue.edu]
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 5:10 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV help


Hey guys - First post, I'm Anthony Priore from Des Plaines, IL.  Project is
an 
EEC-IV onto a Chrysler 440.  I've been a member of the list for a couple of 
weeks now (just reading), and you guys really know your stuff!!!!

My hair-brained scheme is coming together, and I need some help bringing it
all 
in.  I have all of the 'physical' requirements fulfilled (I've got the Ford 
distributor to fit, and have the manifold setup for injectors and a TB).  I 
have a computer and a dash harness.  I know I'll need the MAF sensor and its
4 
wire harness, along with a fuel system and sensors / relays.

My questions so far are: what parts of the harness can I cut out?  The
harness 
has connections for all sorts of stuff (like airbags, etc), and I want to
know 
what connections I can eliminate without the computer flipping out.  My goal
is 
to strip it down to the point that it resembles the Painless 'Race' harness,

with all but the vital functions eliminated.

Also, any archived tech / info that anyone has on EEC-ing a previously 
carbureted car is gladly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Anthony

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From true at ItsYourDomain.com  Mon Dec 23 22:08:51 2002
From: true at ItsYourDomain.com (Nick Starai)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:08:51 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Are you sure the Safeguard uses a DSP?
Message-ID: 



> Nick,
>
> You said....
>
> >The J&S uses DSP.

John hasn't emailed me back but I got this from another source:

'Now that we have a working knowledge of detonation and what causes it,
let's take a detailed look at the Safeguard. Like many OEM applications,
the Safeguard utilizes a knock sensor. This device is essentially a high
quality microphone that screws into the engine's block. The knock sensor
is tuned to respond most strongly to those frequencies that are known to
accompany detonation. The sensor sends its acoustic information to the
Safeguard's control unit where this data is processed by the Safeguard's
Digital Signal Processor (DSP). The DSP employs a proprietary knock
sensing scheme that is impressively capable of discriminating between
knocking (even knocking that is not audible to the driver) and normal
engine noises (valvetrain, accessories, etc.). '

Referenced from: http://acc-electronics.com/cloud/KnockControl.html


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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 23 22:46:53 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:46:53 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

Where can I find some relays with time delay? I have seen plenty of adjustable
.1-100s relays, up in the $50-$70 range. I need something simpler. A instant
ON/fixed delay OFF relay with a delay of about 250-500ms.


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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Mon Dec 23 23:13:01 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:13:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Ah, so its all from the better transfer from engine -> coolant.

I already knew that heat transfer is proportional to delta T ;) I was
talking about pressure alone.

Grant "Not THAT dumb" B.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


> --- Grant Beaty  wrote:
>
> > So higher cooling system temp helps heat transfer
> > from coolant -> radiator as well as engine ->
> > coolant?
>
> Yep.  That's physics for ya.  ;)  The larger the
> differential between two temperatures, the faster the
> heat transfer.
>
> Fourier's Law: The heat flux resulting from thermal
> conduction is proportional to the magnitude of the
> temperature gradient and opposite to it in sign.
>
> Since the thermal conductivity between a radiator's
> metal and the air is the lowest thermal conductivity
> of anything in the circuit, increasing coolant temps
> by pumping more heat into the system from the cylinder
> head WILL result in an increase in coolant temps,
> because getting the heat out to the air is the
> "hardest" part of the circuit.  But higher coolant
> temps will shed more heat to the air than lower
> coolant temps, and the opposite is also true for air
> temps; it's the differential.  IT's also one of the
> reasons vehicles are more likely to boil over in hot
> weather, and why some people put cardboard in front of
> part of their radiator in cold weather (although if
> their thermostat is working properly, that's not
> really necessary).
>
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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>
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>



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From o_zimmer at soltec.net  Mon Dec 23 23:36:41 2002
From: o_zimmer at soltec.net (Oolan Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:36:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

--=======56B0312A=======
Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2CF64E78; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


>Where can I find some relays with time delay? I have seen plenty of adjustable
>.1-100s relays, up in the $50-$70 range. I need something simpler. A instant
>ON/fixed delay OFF relay with a delay of about 250-500ms.

It should be pretty easy to do this with a normal relay and a 555 timer for 
the delay circuit.  Set it up as a monostable and hook the resulting output 
up to a transistor that sinks current from the relay trigger to ground.

Do a google search for "555 timer" and you'll get lots of applications that 
include what you need.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/555/555.html

Oolan Zimmer
o_zimmer at soltec.net

--=======56B0312A=======
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Content-Disposition: inline


---
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 23 23:49:25 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:49:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- Grant Beaty  wrote:

> Ah, so its all from the better transfer from engine
> -> coolant.

Yeah, as you raise the coolant temp, the pressure
rises (of course), but as you have more heat going
INTO the coolant, you won't be able to get it out as
easily as you get it in (because air is a lot harder
to heat than metal or coolant).  Theoretically, you
want the coolant as hot as possible, since it'll shed
heat more quickly if it is hotter, but then you run
into design issues with the cooling system's pressure,
what to make the hoses from, etc.

> I already knew that heat transfer is proportional to
> delta T ;) I was talking about pressure alone.

I'm not sure what you mean by that...  Again, the
hotter the coolant temp, the more heat will be shed to
air of a given temp, but to get coolant temps higher
without reducing radiator area, you're going to
itroduce heat more quickly than you can shed it (from
additional coolant temp), meaning there's actually a
disadvantge in the real world in most cases.

Particular engines seem to have a coolant temperature
that they "like" best for best power.  I know a little
of the science behind it, but not enough to really
talk about it seriously.  I'd definitely be interested
in knowing more about that.


=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From hnormand at asphatech.com  Tue Dec 24 00:06:24 2002
From: hnormand at asphatech.com (Hugo Normand)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:06:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Karman Vortex MAF / Mitsubishi ECM dissamble
Message-ID: 

Does anybody know how the volume is calculated in a Karman Vortex MAF ? I
already know how the karman MAF is working, but what I want to know is what
kind of CFM we are talking about when the MAF is giving 1 Hz. I'm interested
in getting the correct value CFM/Hz the MAF is sending to the ECU. Again
that might be different for each MAF, but if anybody know what's the
relation for example between the opening size and the Hz generated. Anyway,
any information on this is welcome!

Also is there anybody on this list who already dissamble the code from a DSM
EPROM with a Mistu MH6111 MCU?

Hugo


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From justinv6 at bellsouth.net  Tue Dec 24 00:44:40 2002
From: justinv6 at bellsouth.net (Justin Starkey @ VMP)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:44:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV help
Message-ID: 

I have ford helm manuals on cd for 96, and a bunch of later years, they have tons of
wiring diagrams and pinouts.  It may be worth it for you to spend the $200 and buy the
helm cd or paper manual for the year the harness came from, if they still make it.  Have
you tried a cheap chiltons or haynes? they may have some info.  When you eventually get a
chip go with www.fordchip.com since your combo is so unorthodox you should probably have
them dynotune it, they go all over the country doing dynotune days.  They can do things
with the ford EECs nobody else can.

Justin Starkey
www.VelocityMustangPerformance.com
**Quote Original E-Mail In Reply**
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 12:10 AM
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV help


> Hey guys - First post, I'm Anthony Priore from Des Plaines, IL.  Project is an
> EEC-IV onto a Chrysler 440.  I've been a member of the list for a couple of
> weeks now (just reading), and you guys really know your stuff!!!!
>
> My hair-brained scheme is coming together, and I need some help bringing it all
> in.  I have all of the 'physical' requirements fulfilled (I've got the Ford
> distributor to fit, and have the manifold setup for injectors and a TB).  I
> have a computer and a dash harness.  I know I'll need the MAF sensor and its 4
> wire harness, along with a fuel system and sensors / relays.
>
> My questions so far are: what parts of the harness can I cut out?  The harness
> has connections for all sorts of stuff (like airbags, etc), and I want to know
> what connections I can eliminate without the computer flipping out.  My goal is
> to strip it down to the point that it resembles the Painless 'Race' harness,
> with all but the vital functions eliminated.
>
> Also, any archived tech / info that anyone has on EEC-ing a previously
> carbureted car is gladly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.
>
> Anthony
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From rjp at teknology.net  Tue Dec 24 01:27:34 2002
From: rjp at teknology.net (Phil)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 22:27:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
Message-ID: 

Noel-

I have experience with this design. Define your powertrain combination and
vehicle that it's installed in clearer.

-Phil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Strauss" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:11 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe



Does anyone have experience with setting up the EFI

on a 16 injector BDS bugcatcher? Need help with base fuel map and cold
start.



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From WEG1192 at aol.com  Tue Dec 24 02:17:31 2002
From: WEG1192 at aol.com (WEG1192 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 23:17:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV help
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/23/02 7:55:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
justinv6 at bellsouth.net writes:

> When you eventually get a
>  chip go with www.fordchip.com since your combo is so unorthodox you should 
> probably have
>  them dynotune it, they go all over the country doing dynotune days.  They 
> can do things
>  with the ford EECs nobody else can.

Why not DIY? That is what this list is about. Or just swap in a GM ECM and be 
done with it.

JW

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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Tue Dec 24 02:22:42 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 23:22:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV help
Message-ID: 


eec is just underplayed with. check out www.moates.net for some eec iv 
hardware and links to tunning software.

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From shannen at grolen.com  Tue Dec 24 02:33:02 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 23:33:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Speed Density fueling and throttle position
Message-ID: 



"Geddes, Brian J" wrote:

> 
> On a speed-density system, if the throttle is open enough to allow equal pressure on both sides of the throttle, does opening it further make any difference to the fueling calculations?

Since this is a general question, and not ecm specific, the answer is
"if it does, it shouldn't."
Shannen

> 
> Thanks,
> - Brian
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec 24 03:25:19 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:25:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

One very basic method is a big fat capacitor across coil with
a pair of diodes to isolate the cap from the coil when off...

Discharge time is approx t=1.1xRxC

where R= reistance of coil, and C is the cap value in Farads,
this way you can get a few seconds with practical caps and
a K or so or coil resistance,

But to get 100s best to put a schmitt trigger and caps on the
drive to the coil transistor, others prob already have a circuit,
its fairly straightforward,

rgds

mike



At 02:48 PM 23/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Where can I find some relays with time delay? I have seen plenty of
adjustable
>.1-100s relays, up in the $50-$70 range. I need something simpler. A instant
>ON/fixed delay OFF relay with a delay of about 250-500ms.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec 24 03:40:16 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:40:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

What the heck, I just realised you only want a few milliseconds,
then thats not a problem unless your coil has very low resitance,
but if its for driving something in an auot then its prob at least
a few hundred ohms,

Here's my go at ascii art 

     ----------------------------
     |                          |
+ve--+---->|------+----->|------+---- coil +ve
                  |
                  |+
                 --- electrolyic
                 --- cap
                  |-
                  |
                  +------------------ coil -ve
                  |
                  |
                  |
             To device which normally pulls relay on


Where -->|-- is a diode say a 1N4004 (1Amp) or if you
need something a bit meatier go for a 1N5404 (3A)

and your electrolytic cap should be 2200uF 25V if your
coil resistance is about 270 Ohms, the 2200 is a preferred
value, you can go up a bit at a time, 3300, 4700 etc or have
a couple if parallel to trim the delay to what you want,
I'm guessing on your coil resistance though, higher coil
resistance wont need such a large capacitor.

Overall shouldnt cost more than $AUD 3. (since you already
have the coil)

rgds

mike








At 11:41 AM 24/12/2002, you wrote:
>One very basic method is a big fat capacitor across coil with
>a pair of diodes to isolate the cap from the coil when off...
>
>Discharge time is approx t=1.1xRxC
>
>where R= reistance of coil, and C is the cap value in Farads,
>this way you can get a few seconds with practical caps and
>a K or so or coil resistance,
>
>But to get 100s best to put a schmitt trigger and caps on the
>drive to the coil transistor, others prob already have a circuit,
>its fairly straightforward,
>
>rgds
>
>mike
>
>
>
>At 02:48 PM 23/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>Where can I find some relays with time delay? I have seen plenty of
>adjustable
>>.1-100s relays, up in the $50-$70 range. I need something simpler. A instant
>>ON/fixed delay OFF relay with a delay of about 250-500ms.
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>>
>
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>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec 24 03:57:04 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:57:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] boosted compression ratio
Message-ID: 

At 06:24 PM 23/12/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>> mmmm OK, I take it you mean the ECU reaches its own max advance
>> by virtue of a knock sensor - which we assume is operating correctly
>> (I say that as these are high impedance devices and dont need much
>> in way of connector contamination to go a little haywire), though
>> its weird an ECU would be arranged to keep advancing until knock
>> on a production car ! 
>
>Well, advance at least until as far as the desired set-point.
>VW made a big thing about Digifant being able to adapt to a wide
>range of fuels. So it _might_ be that they do advance to the onset
>of knock and then back off for steady-state.

I take it you dont have access to this 'setpoint',

>> Eeeek - You get much better performance going for a hot wire type
>> AFM than the vane types ! If I recall the factory AFM on my VL
>
>It's not a standard Bosch AFM but a special version for VW's
>Digifant. Linearised output IIRC.

mmm Must be - because even the early vane types I used for EFI thesis
back in 82 were log output, I used one from a 2L Kombi for a ford
escort - the restriction was quite marked, never got anywhere near
as much power as a dual throat progressive carby :(

>> turbo is a pretty much generic Bosch type in that it was intended
>> to replace many vane types - I have a spare which you are welcome
>> to try (you are in PErth?)  - the pin configuration may well
>> be similar, you only need to put in a burn cycle ?
>
>One of the "projects" that I've had to shelve because of dire lack
>of free time and money, was to "map" the output of the present AFM
>against the now-cheap MAF by putting it in series (!!) with the aim
>of eventually replacing the AFM with the MAF and a small processor
>to handle the translation for what the ECU expects, provide an air
>temperature "reading"; and to do the special handling of the MAF of
>which the ECU is blissfully ignorant.

mmmm, I think I see, hot wire in front, vane in back and do a one-to-one,
there are heaps of processors with 10-12bit ADC and you'll get more
headroom from the hotwire ones, though the base point cal has a fixed
offset (which wanders a bit) and needs to be 'reset' in s/w 
plus that burn cycle.


>> >Engine management is mostly closed-loop so even changing the fuel
>> >pressure regulator didn't increase fuelling.
>> 
>> So why did you tweak the spring on the AFM, you did make the
>> spring a little weaker - right ?
>
>Backed off 3 teeth on the pre-tension cog. The tip-in "response" lag
>disappeared after that so I glued the cap back on... It's only for
>dealing with transient enrichment anyway.

Ah ok, so the cal range for the actual wasnt affected - I didnt think
they were that complex, I took one apart in 82 when I did my thesis,
and it was a real basic spring loaded pot - nothing special - can from
a 2L kombi.

>> Bear in mind most ECU's are designed to have only minimal shift
>> from initial settings so as to avoid wild fluctuations affecting
>> overall stability. So if you start out quite lean then the ECU
>
>I don't know about the "minimal" fluctuations. I was able to drive
>the car when the camshaft was installed retarded by 30 degrees...
>no mean feat for any engine management system. For some reason, the
>sub-contractor who pulled the head down to replace valve guides (the
>head was off the block anyway), took the cam sprocket off the
>camshaft. And then assembled it backwards... of course there were
>"timing" marks on the wrong side of the sprocket. But not in the
>right place.

What I was referring to was range when in closed loop, not overall.


>> may not have enough opportuntiy to make it richer, hence you
>> are hearing ping ! I've messed with mine to some degree and found
>> that it won't change fueling by more than about 8% from the
>> base settings - ie. It will try then hits an aysmptote. So
>> as long as I set it up to a median then it can go a little
>> lean or rich as needed but wont go far from the base settings.
>
>Well, it's operating closed loop and the control algorithm on my car
>tends to favour the lean side of stoich. That's steady-state
>operations; which is not where the (audible) ping occurs anyway.

Why not shift the o2 sensor output, add a buffer amp with a pot to
change the gain from say 0.9 to 1.1, but then I see you dont have
a problem with steady state,

I take it then you only have a ping problem with transient ?

>> There is an adjustment pot on my AFM (which goes only to the
>> ECU) which is a rich/lean trim and this has about a 15% affect
>> (or maybe a little mroe) on ECU injection DC - its a 22 turn pot.
>
>That'd be the base CO adjustment.

Well it affects everyting, CO is not independent of HC's that pot
handles the whole AFM cal setting - through the ECU.

>Space behing the engine of a Golf is very tight and the steering
>rack is quite close. All the LHD ones interfere with the steering
>rack. What's more, the engine moves around a lot so there has to be
>some flexible coupling; and it has to connect to the cat. converter
>because I'm not too chuffed at the prospect of a $20,000 fine.

Dale has done quite a few odd ones with tight spaces, he'll look
at it for nothing...

>> >If I use normal ULP, the 7c/litre saving is offset by a 10 to 15%
>> >increase in fuel consumption. And then there's the crap in the fuel
>> >that gums up injectors to they need a "dose" every 15,000km as
>> >well... not been required since 99% of the fuel used has been 98.

>> consumption test setup ?
>
>They'd be inconclusive anyway; pretty much a waste because of day to
>day variations. The only proper way to do it would be to put the car
>in a controlled environment and run it in there.

Well thats what I meant on a dyno, just pick a day, note the temp/humidty and
run 500cc of fuel through a graduated line, or whatever amount is
selected whilst staying on say 40% power out in top gear - much more
defintive than say the psychological factors imposed by expectations ;)

Though I seem to be getting real world settings almost regardless of
how I drive, I used to get about 320 K's on a tankfull when ULP and
odd ping problem. Now on premium, no ping problem and get 450K per
tankfull on average - part city/highway cycle,

>> I 'seem' to get about a 5 - 10% improvement in economy when
>> going from ULP to Premium but havent noticed much at all when
>> going from Premium to BP 98 - havent tried optimax yet - partly
>> because here in Perth there arent many outlets.
>
>Not many? Are there _any_??

I think there's one on Alexander drive around truganini rd/st,

>Price difference between 98 and PULP is usually only one or two
>cents and the car seems happier (less audible ping and better
>throttle response) so it's worth it to me.

I usually fill up at Shell West Perth and get it about 6c on
average cheaper than 98 but havent been keep track of BP 98 as
its a bit out of my way,

>> i mean you've 'tweaked' the spring in your vane AFM and assume
>> the ECU has wide range over which to control fueling.
>
>On transients. It's been fooled into thinking that there's a greater
>inrush of air so it provides additional enrichment.

So I take it the main spring tension hasnt been changed,

>Steady-state and it reverts to (the lean side of) stoich.
>
>> What you may have here is a combination that results in the
>> ECU not being able to fuel because its base is out of its
>> median control range ?
>
>Only if it was made that way at the factory.

Yes they are all made that way so that in closed loop there arent
wild swings in fueling - imagine 80% change in injector duty due to
o2 sensor swings which arent detected as faults - most ECU's seem to
onyl 'trim' the fuel injector DC the main inputs being AFM and
engine temp - have you checked your coolant temp - mine went gagah
about a year after a bought the car - overfuelled badly...

>> Have you looked at the injector duty cycle change when
>> in stead state cruise and how this changes between fuels
>> for the same cruise conditions ?
>
>No... I don't have the diagnostic gear. Digifant is deaf and dumb,
>so it doesn't provide any cap[ability to read that information.

Thats not what I meant, get a cheap multimeter with Duty cycle
capacity or get a kit from Jaycar that does the same thing and
attach it to the injector (in parallel of course)

>Bosch Super 4. Brought in a set from the UK in 1997 to try and
>haven't had a reason to use anything else.

Yeah they are now quite common at Marlows, been using them for
a while and much happier at idle and the thing pulls much better
at higher revs - amazing difference between splitfires and 4 spot.
I'll prob go for a colder version when I get my next engine !

>> Just occured to me, have you changed/upgraded the capacitor
>> which is near the ignition coil, ie The one which goes from
>> coil +ve to ground. I had an odd problem for a few months
>
>There's no capacitor there on my car; nor on the factory
>current-flow diagrams for the car. Ignition is controlled by
>Digifant using standard Bosch ignition amplifier.

Ah ha !

If your engine was stock *and* the ignition circuit was in top
health then you probably wouldnt have a problem, now that you
have a modded cam and your car is older it might be worthwhile
taking a real close look at your ignition driver.

If the 'bosch amp' goes to both sides of the coil primary then
it might just have a cap in there, if not and the 'bosch amp'
only acts like a glorified NPN transistor then it might *need*
a cap to go from coil +ve (ignition) to ground - somewhat close
to the ground point of the 'bosch amp' (no more ascii art
for me today;) Because dont make the assumption the circuit is
perfectly accurate - I have *very often* seen errors in production
circuits over many years from HP, to IBM to Ford to Holden and
foreign (non english) etc etc

You might just jag your problem by trying this out, it wont damage
anything - you are quelling back emf from the coil going into the
ignition line and this nasty disturbance could well be enough to
jostle your ECU enough - also assuming its own noise suppression
is working fine..

I have a 4uF Bosch AC cap (Can type) you are welcome to try, and I'd
be interested in "hearing" your ping - it sounds similar to the
problem i used to have,  what year, no of cylinders, displacement
is your engine ?

rgds

mike




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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec 24 03:57:16 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 00:57:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

Here I go commenting on my own posts,

 Whats the duty cycle of your relat and whats it meant
to drive ?

rgds

mike



At 11:54 AM 24/12/2002, you wrote:
>What the heck, I just realised you only want a few milliseconds,
>then thats not a problem unless your coil has very low resitance,
>but if its for driving something in an auot then its prob at least
>a few hundred ohms,
>
>Here's my go at ascii art 
>
>     ----------------------------
>     |                          |
>+ve--+---->|------+----->|------+---- coil +ve
>                  |
>                  |+
>                 --- electrolyic
>                 --- cap
>                  |-
>                  |
>                  +------------------ coil -ve
>                  |
>                  |
>                  |
>             To device which normally pulls relay on
>
>
>Where -->|-- is a diode say a 1N4004 (1Amp) or if you
>need something a bit meatier go for a 1N5404 (3A)
>
>and your electrolytic cap should be 2200uF 25V if your
>coil resistance is about 270 Ohms, the 2200 is a preferred
>value, you can go up a bit at a time, 3300, 4700 etc or have
>a couple if parallel to trim the delay to what you want,
>I'm guessing on your coil resistance though, higher coil
>resistance wont need such a large capacitor.
>
>Overall shouldnt cost more than $AUD 3. (since you already
>have the coil)
>
>rgds
>
>mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 11:41 AM 24/12/2002, you wrote:
>>One very basic method is a big fat capacitor across coil with
>>a pair of diodes to isolate the cap from the coil when off...
>>
>>Discharge time is approx t=1.1xRxC
>>
>>where R= reistance of coil, and C is the cap value in Farads,
>>this way you can get a few seconds with practical caps and
>>a K or so or coil resistance,
>>
>>But to get 100s best to put a schmitt trigger and caps on the
>>drive to the coil transistor, others prob already have a circuit,
>>its fairly straightforward,
>>
>>rgds
>>
>>mike
>>
>>
>>
>>At 02:48 PM 23/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>>Where can I find some relays with time delay? I have seen plenty of
>>adjustable
>>>.1-100s relays, up in the $50-$70 range. I need something simpler. A
instant
>>>ON/fixed delay OFF relay with a delay of about 250-500ms.
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From brian at dessent.net  Tue Dec 24 04:44:25 2002
From: brian at dessent.net (Brian Dessent)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 01:44:25 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - V8 chainsaw
Message-ID: 


Surely some of you on this list will get a kick out of this little clip
of some guys who built a V8 chainsaw... it shows them sawing through a
two foot log in no time.

http://www.punchbaby.com/media/laters/clips/cool/html/V8ChainSaw.htm

(the clip is AVI format, you'll need to play it with Windows Media
player I think)

Brian

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From roots66 at flexoink.com  Tue Dec 24 05:30:49 2002
From: roots66 at flexoink.com (Noel Strauss)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 02:30:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
Message-ID: 

Phil
Please check out my website. http://www.corvetteforum.net/classics/noelga/
We have only run the motor on dyno.
Thanks
Noel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe


> Noel-
>
> I have experience with this design. Define your powertrain combination and
> vehicle that it's installed in clearer.
>
> -Phil
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Noel Strauss" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:11 PM
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
>
>
>
> Does anyone have experience with setting up the EFI
>
> on a 16 injector BDS bugcatcher? Need help with base fuel map and cold
> start.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Tue Dec 24 06:09:38 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 03:09:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

I was wondering if cooling system pressure effected the heat exchanged with
all other things being equal, including radiator inlet temps. I noticed no
higher coolant temps (the probe is where the coolant exits the block) with a
19-21 psi cap compared to stock 16 psi.

> Particular engines seem to have a coolant temperature
> that they "like" best for best power.  I know a little
> of the science behind it, but not enough to really
> talk about it seriously.  I'd definitely be interested
> in knowing more about that.

On my car, doing dyno runs with cold coolant didn't change the HP output at
all - although I didn't exactly try and optimize timing and fuel maps for
the cold temps. On the street, I don't see any more knock with the stock
(180F) thermostat than a colder one. Of course this is veeery far from
scientific testing :)

Grant Beaty
'97 Supra T

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


> --- Grant Beaty  wrote:
>
> > Ah, so its all from the better transfer from engine
> > -> coolant.
>
> Yeah, as you raise the coolant temp, the pressure
> rises (of course), but as you have more heat going
> INTO the coolant, you won't be able to get it out as
> easily as you get it in (because air is a lot harder
> to heat than metal or coolant).  Theoretically, you
> want the coolant as hot as possible, since it'll shed
> heat more quickly if it is hotter, but then you run
> into design issues with the cooling system's pressure,
> what to make the hoses from, etc.
>
> > I already knew that heat transfer is proportional to
> > delta T ;) I was talking about pressure alone.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by that...  Again, the
> hotter the coolant temp, the more heat will be shed to
> air of a given temp, but to get coolant temps higher
> without reducing radiator area, you're going to
> itroduce heat more quickly than you can shed it (from
> additional coolant temp), meaning there's actually a
> disadvantge in the real world in most cases.
>
> Particular engines seem to have a coolant temperature
> that they "like" best for best power.  I know a little
> of the science behind it, but not enough to really
> talk about it seriously.  I'd definitely be interested
> in knowing more about that.
>
>
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
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>



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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 24 07:19:58 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 04:19:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- Grant Beaty  wrote:

> I was wondering if cooling system pressure effected
> the heat exchanged with all other things being
> equal,

With a non-compressible (like coolant, for all
practical purposes) you can do two things by
increasing the pressure; you can increase the flow
rate through the system, which may or may not make the
system able to move more heat (depends on how fast the
coolant can pick up and shed heat), and you can raise
the boiling point of the coolant (which is probably
the most important bit).

> including radiator inlet temps. I noticed no
> higher coolant temps (the probe is where the coolant
> exits the block) with a 19-21 psi cap compared to
> stock 16 psi.

Well, if you're not blowing off the valve in a
lower-pressure cap, putting on a higher-pressure cap
won't change a thing.  It would only make a difference
once coolant pressures got ABOVE the blow-off point
for the lesser cap.

> On my car, doing dyno runs with cold coolant didn't
> change the HP output at all - although I didn't
> exactly try and optimize timing and fuel maps for
> the cold temps.

I was meaning more something along these lines; GSX-R
motors seem to make best power at right about 200 F
coolant temp.  At 180 they are down a bit, and at 220
they are down a LOT.  They seem to do best at 200 F,
when tuned for best power at a given coolant temp. 
That sort of thing.

> On the street, I don't see any more knock with the
> stock (180F) thermostat than a colder one.

Would a slightly hotter one make better power?  LEss
pinging?

> Of course this is veeery far from scientific
> testing :)

Gotta start somewhere.  ;)

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 24 07:43:34 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 04:43:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

When you say coil, do you mean the coils of the relay?

Basically, here's what I'd like to do as simply as possible:

I have a input on my ECU which runs through a NC switch, to ground. When the
switch opens, I'd like the input on the ECU to continue to see ground for about
300-400ms after the switch opens.

However best way to do that, you tell me. I was just thinking a relay would be
best, but if there is something I can connect along that wire that can do the
same, all the better.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?


> Here I go commenting on my own posts,
>
>  Whats the duty cycle of your relat and whats it meant
> to drive ?
>
> rgds
>
> mike
>
>
>
> At 11:54 AM 24/12/2002, you wrote:
> >What the heck, I just realised you only want a few milliseconds,
> >then thats not a problem unless your coil has very low resitance,
> >but if its for driving something in an auot then its prob at least
> >a few hundred ohms,
> >
> >Here's my go at ascii art 
> >
> >     ----------------------------
> >     |                          |
> >+ve--+---->|------+----->|------+---- coil +ve
> >                  |
> >                  |+
> >                 --- electrolyic
> >                 --- cap
> >                  |-
> >                  |
> >                  +------------------ coil -ve
> >                  |
> >                  |
> >                  |
> >             To device which normally pulls relay on
> >
> >
> >Where -->|-- is a diode say a 1N4004 (1Amp) or if you
> >need something a bit meatier go for a 1N5404 (3A)
> >
> >and your electrolytic cap should be 2200uF 25V if your
> >coil resistance is about 270 Ohms, the 2200 is a preferred
> >value, you can go up a bit at a time, 3300, 4700 etc or have
> >a couple if parallel to trim the delay to what you want,
> >I'm guessing on your coil resistance though, higher coil
> >resistance wont need such a large capacitor.
> >
> >Overall shouldnt cost more than $AUD 3. (since you already
> >have the coil)
> >
> >rgds
> >
> >mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >At 11:41 AM 24/12/2002, you wrote:
> >>One very basic method is a big fat capacitor across coil with
> >>a pair of diodes to isolate the cap from the coil when off...
> >>
> >>Discharge time is approx t=1.1xRxC
> >>
> >>where R= reistance of coil, and C is the cap value in Farads,
> >>this way you can get a few seconds with practical caps and
> >>a K or so or coil resistance,
> >>
> >>But to get 100s best to put a schmitt trigger and caps on the
> >>drive to the coil transistor, others prob already have a circuit,
> >>its fairly straightforward,
> >>
> >>rgds
> >>
> >>mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>At 02:48 PM 23/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >>>Where can I find some relays with time delay? I have seen plenty of
> >>adjustable
> >>>.1-100s relays, up in the $50-$70 range. I need something simpler. A
> instant
> >>>ON/fixed delay OFF relay with a delay of about 250-500ms.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Diy_efi mailing list
> >>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >>>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>Diy_efi mailing list
> >>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >>
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec 24 07:59:04 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 04:59:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

At 11:43 PM 23/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>When you say coil, do you mean the coils of the relay?

yes - unless there are other coils, latching relay perhaps,

>Basically, here's what I'd like to do as simply as possible:
>
>I have a input on my ECU which runs through a NC switch, to ground. When the
>switch opens, I'd like the input on the ECU to continue to see ground for
about
>300-400ms after the switch opens.

Well if your input to the ECU is high(ish) impedance with a possible
pullup which I'd expect since its looking for a ground, you dont need
a relay - just a capcitor to ground, have you got a oscilloscope
or a multimeter with fast reading scale ?

All you do is put a cap between the input and ground and your same
switch to ground (ie In parallel with cap), when the switch opens
the cap charges up gradually through the pullup on the ECU, so
try a 10uF cap first 16V and measure across it with a multimeter
and see what happens, a 10uF cap over costs about 20c

What is the input precisely used for -  on the ECU ?

rgds

mike


>However best way to do that, you tell me. I was just thinking a relay
would be
>best, but if there is something I can connect along that wire that can do the
>same, all the better.
>
>----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 12:13 PM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
>
>
>> Here I go commenting on my own posts,
>>
>>  Whats the duty cycle of your relat and whats it meant
>> to drive ?
>>
>> rgds
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>> At 11:54 AM 24/12/2002, you wrote:
>> >What the heck, I just realised you only want a few milliseconds,
>> >then thats not a problem unless your coil has very low resitance,
>> >but if its for driving something in an auot then its prob at least
>> >a few hundred ohms,
>> >
>> >Here's my go at ascii art 
>> >
>> >     ----------------------------
>> >     |                          |
>> >+ve--+---->|------+----->|------+---- coil +ve
>> >                  |
>> >                  |+
>> >                 --- electrolyic
>> >                 --- cap
>> >                  |-
>> >                  |
>> >                  +------------------ coil -ve
>> >                  |
>> >                  |
>> >                  |
>> >             To device which normally pulls relay on
>> >
>> >
>> >Where -->|-- is a diode say a 1N4004 (1Amp) or if you
>> >need something a bit meatier go for a 1N5404 (3A)
>> >
>> >and your electrolytic cap should be 2200uF 25V if your
>> >coil resistance is about 270 Ohms, the 2200 is a preferred
>> >value, you can go up a bit at a time, 3300, 4700 etc or have
>> >a couple if parallel to trim the delay to what you want,
>> >I'm guessing on your coil resistance though, higher coil
>> >resistance wont need such a large capacitor.
>> >
>> >Overall shouldnt cost more than $AUD 3. (since you already
>> >have the coil)
>> >
>> >rgds
>> >
>> >mike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >At 11:41 AM 24/12/2002, you wrote:
>> >>One very basic method is a big fat capacitor across coil with
>> >>a pair of diodes to isolate the cap from the coil when off...
>> >>
>> >>Discharge time is approx t=1.1xRxC
>> >>
>> >>where R= reistance of coil, and C is the cap value in Farads,
>> >>this way you can get a few seconds with practical caps and
>> >>a K or so or coil resistance,
>> >>
>> >>But to get 100s best to put a schmitt trigger and caps on the
>> >>drive to the coil transistor, others prob already have a circuit,
>> >>its fairly straightforward,
>> >>
>> >>rgds
>> >>
>> >>mike
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>At 02:48 PM 23/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>> >>>Where can I find some relays with time delay? I have seen plenty of
>> >>adjustable
>> >>>.1-100s relays, up in the $50-$70 range. I need something simpler. A
>> instant
>> >>>ON/fixed delay OFF relay with a delay of about 250-500ms.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>_______________________________________________
>> >>>Diy_efi mailing list
>> >>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >>>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>Diy_efi mailing list
>> >>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 24 08:13:02 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:13:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

> Well if your input to the ECU is high(ish) impedance with a possible
> pullup which I'd expect since its looking for a ground, you dont need
> a relay - just a capcitor to ground, have you got a oscilloscope
> or a multimeter with fast reading scale ?

No but I think I can use the internal logger in a way to show a time delay
between switch change and registered change at the input.

> All you do is put a cap between the input and ground and your same
> switch to ground (ie In parallel with cap), when the switch opens
> the cap charges up gradually through the pullup on the ECU, so
> try a 10uF cap first 16V and measure across it with a multimeter
> and see what happens, a 10uF cap over costs about 20c

Like this?


GND-------SWITCH---------------------ECU
                                              |
                                              |
                                              |
                                              +
                                         10uf cap
                                              -
                                              |
                                              |
                                              |
                                           GND

> What is the input precisely used for -  on the ECU ?

Triggering a massive change in the fuel tables. I have a large shot of methanol
I turn on, and the switch is the pressure switch on the pump head. The pressure
switch activates when pressure gets built in the system, but before the methanol
actually reaches the cylinders. Just trying to make the ECU wait for the
methanol before cutting back on the gasoline.


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec 24 08:32:01 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:32:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

At 12:13 AM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:

Yeah thats it but, based on the expectation here's some pullup
in the ECU to pull the input high when the switch opens, some
have 10K - some have 100K up to a megohm, so find what caps you
have in the junk box or go to your nearest electronic store and
get some decade sets, like 1uF, 10uF, 100uF and a couple inbetween,
they are really cheap so altogether shouldnt cost more than A$2,
bit of trial and error and you should get precisely what you
want. No need to go over 16VW on the cap specs unless its handling
ignition voltage - then go for 35VW (VW=Volts Working) etc,

The only minor issue is if the ECU input you are using doesnt
have a schmitt trigger on it, if that input is normally used
for switching tables then I'd expect it would, in the event
it doesnt you'd probaly notice noise at the switch voltage
which is either cmos or ttl levels, But I guess its probably
an input to the s/w so it might have its own debounce timer as well,

rgds

mike


>Like this?
>
>
>GND-------SWITCH---------------------ECU
>                                              |
>                                              |
>                                              |
>                                              +
>                                         10uf cap
>                                              -
>                                              |
>                                              |
>                                              |
>                                           GND
>
>> What is the input precisely used for -  on the ECU ?
>
>Triggering a massive change in the fuel tables. I have a large shot of
methanol
>I turn on, and the switch is the pressure switch on the pump head. The
pressure
>switch activates when pressure gets built in the system, but before the
methanol
>actually reaches the cylinders. Just trying to make the ECU wait for the
>methanol before cutting back on the gasoline.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 24 08:33:05 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:33:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

> The only minor issue is if the ECU input you are using doesnt
> have a schmitt trigger on it, if that input is normally used
> for switching tables then I'd expect it would, in the event
> it doesnt you'd probaly notice noise at the switch voltage
> which is either cmos or ttl levels, But I guess its probably
> an input to the s/w so it might have its own debounce timer as well,

Most of what you said is greek to me. Hehe. I still understand how to wire it
and what to buy, but the theory is past me. Didn't take advanced electronics.

Do I have any danger of hurting anything just giving this a try?


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From efi.student at sbcglobal.net  Tue Dec 24 09:47:19 2002
From: efi.student at sbcglobal.net (efi student)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 06:47:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

What about the effect of a higher system pressure on localized boiling =
and
surface wetting for thermal transfer?  Isn't a higher cap pressure going =
to
reduce the size of the steam bubbles around the exhaust ports and =
improve
thermal transfer?  That seems to be the concensus from a number of sites =
I
have seen discussing cooling system performance and from empirical
experience.

lance

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org] On =
Behalf
Of Adam Wade
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 11:25 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


--- Grant Beaty  wrote:

> I was wondering if cooling system pressure effected
> the heat exchanged with all other things being
> equal,

With a non-compressible (like coolant, for all
practical purposes) you can do two things by
increasing the pressure; you can increase the flow
rate through the system, which may or may not make the
system able to move more heat (depends on how fast the
coolant can pick up and shed heat), and you can raise
the boiling point of the coolant (which is probably
the most important bit).

> including radiator inlet temps. I noticed no
> higher coolant temps (the probe is where the coolant
> exits the block) with a 19-21 psi cap compared to
> stock 16 psi.

Well, if you're not blowing off the valve in a
lower-pressure cap, putting on a higher-pressure cap
won't change a thing.  It would only make a difference
once coolant pressures got ABOVE the blow-off point
for the lesser cap.

> On my car, doing dyno runs with cold coolant didn't
> change the HP output at all - although I didn't
> exactly try and optimize timing and fuel maps for
> the cold temps.

I was meaning more something along these lines; GSX-R
motors seem to make best power at right about 200 F
coolant temp.  At 180 they are down a bit, and at 220
they are down a LOT.  They seem to do best at 200 F,
when tuned for best power at a given coolant temp.=20
That sort of thing.

> On the street, I don't see any more knock with the
> stock (180F) thermostat than a colder one.

Would a slightly hotter one make better power?  LEss
pinging?

> Of course this is veeery far from scientific
> testing :)

Gotta start somewhere.  ;)

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=3D/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec 24 11:38:00 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:38:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

At 12:35 AM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Most of what you said is greek to me. Hehe. I still understand how to wire it
>and what to buy, but the theory is past me. Didn't take advanced electronics.

No worries (as we say in Australia), life is an experiment and so
is electronics and chemistry and ultimately its the same stuff ;-)

>Do I have any danger of hurting anything just giving this a try?

On the basis of what you've told me, I'd say no - but if a hawaian
atoll gets vaporised in the next few days, I may backtrack on legal
issues of liability,

have a nice xmas, we had 34.8 deg C today, 36 due tomorrow 

rgds

mike

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec 24 11:52:05 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:52:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Hi Lance,

On a related issue, some 5 years ago I had a cracked aluminium
(aluminum in USA) cylinder head on the Nissan RB30ET engine,
and its quite common on my type of car due to the radiator top
being some 8cm below the highest galleries in the air gatherer
and cylinder head... The Nissan TI3.0 has the same motor but
rarely (if ever) suffers from this problem due to its higher
radiator position.

Now, GMH released a service note on the cooling system some 3
years after the car was introduced (most dealers didnt read it
or think it appropriate), anyway it stated that two bleed holes
(one on the inlet manifold and the other higher up on the top
of the 'air gatherer') needed to be cycled whilst simultaneously
raising the water inlet above the top of the radiator by 300mm
or so - whenever servicing the cooling system. Ostensibly to
ensure no trapped air bubbles during service.

Anyway to (now) cut a long story short, I added a small water pump and
a solenoid so I can purge the cooling system of bubbles whenever
I like without major drama and avoid another cracked cylinder
head de to loss of coolant - especially since I have a turbo.

I have some pictures on this link if anyone's interested,
http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/
 most pic descriptions are reasonably on target.

What I noticed in late spring and early summer is that
if I first raise the coolant pressure to the 15psi max as set
by the radiator relief valve then overall I notice the
average engine temperature a little cooler than allowing
the coolant pressure to rise purely by engine dumping its heat.

Also what I noticed is that after each 200 or so Kms there is
a fair amount of bubble buildup, looks like 50-100cc from
time to time and seems to be circumstantially related to those
occasions i really push it. I am guessing the head gasket is acting
like a one way valve and letting a little blowby gas through on those
occasions - I am not however losing coolant and had a pressure
test to 40psi without any coolant loss!

I've not been an adherent to the paradigm that when the engine
dumps its heat the coolant *will* rise to the set pressure allowed
for by the radiator end cap.

My theory is that vapour forms (in those head hot spots) 
which momentarily raises the
pressure but the vapour bubbles get moved around to cooler
regions and collapse thus the average pressure rarely reaches
the 15psi max allowed for.

What I think is happening is that by artificially raising the
pressure before I set off I am making it more difficult for
vapour areas to form which reduce cooling. I also dont think,
that in the convoluted galleries of the head, that exhaust
gasket blowby, or vapour bubbles are necessarily free from
sticking to the ally head. ie. There may be eddies and swirls
in the flow pattern which means some bubbles get caught and
stick etc. By running a separate pressure pump and purge
solenoid I am thinking this *ensures* there is minimal
likelihood this occurs at all rev ranges as they seem to
be forced from the galleries at higher revs due to the higher
flow rates from the main water pump. At moment the
system is manual, though when I get time, i'll put in a
micro, pressure switch etc etc, To do this periodically
during starting and when engine running, the pump is a A$10
pump and solenoid is a fuel/water for carbies, cheap and
effective - The bleed lines are fed together to the purge
solenoid.

rgds

mike




At 01:54 AM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>What about the effect of a higher system pressure on localized boiling and
>surface wetting for thermal transfer?  Isn't a higher cap pressure going to
>reduce the size of the steam bubbles around the exhaust ports and improve
>thermal transfer?  That seems to be the concensus from a number of sites I
>have seen discussing cooling system performance and from empirical
>experience.
>
>lance
>
>-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org] On Behalf
>Of Adam Wade
>Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 11:25 PM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
>
>
>--- Grant Beaty  wrote:
>
>> I was wondering if cooling system pressure effected
>> the heat exchanged with all other things being
>> equal,
>
>With a non-compressible (like coolant, for all
>practical purposes) you can do two things by
>increasing the pressure; you can increase the flow
>rate through the system, which may or may not make the
>system able to move more heat (depends on how fast the
>coolant can pick up and shed heat), and you can raise
>the boiling point of the coolant (which is probably
>the most important bit).
>
>> including radiator inlet temps. I noticed no
>> higher coolant temps (the probe is where the coolant
>> exits the block) with a 19-21 psi cap compared to
>> stock 16 psi.
>
>Well, if you're not blowing off the valve in a
>lower-pressure cap, putting on a higher-pressure cap
>won't change a thing.  It would only make a difference
>once coolant pressures got ABOVE the blow-off point
>for the lesser cap.
>
>> On my car, doing dyno runs with cold coolant didn't
>> change the HP output at all - although I didn't
>> exactly try and optimize timing and fuel maps for
>> the cold temps.
>
>I was meaning more something along these lines; GSX-R
>motors seem to make best power at right about 200 F
>coolant temp.  At 180 they are down a bit, and at 220
>they are down a LOT.  They seem to do best at 200 F,
>when tuned for best power at a given coolant temp. 
>That sort of thing.
>
>> On the street, I don't see any more knock with the
>> stock (180F) thermostat than a colder one.
>
>Would a slightly hotter one make better power?  LEss
>pinging?
>
>> Of course this is veeery far from scientific
>> testing :)
>
>Gotta start somewhere.  ;)
>
>=====
>| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
>|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
>| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
>|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
>|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
>|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
>|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From rjp at teknology.net  Tue Dec 24 12:32:18 2002
From: rjp at teknology.net (Phil)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 09:32:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
Message-ID: 

Noel-

By the looks of the power level you have achieved, it seems as if you
already have the combination dialed in, yes? What are the issues with the
engine when cold or at startup?

If I recall correctly, you should have the 25lb./hr. Ford injectors that
came with the kit, yes?

-Phil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Strauss" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe


> Phil
> Please check out my website.
http://www.corvetteforum.net/classics/noelga/
> We have only run the motor on dyno.
> Thanks
> Noel
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 8:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
>
>
> > Noel-
> >
> > I have experience with this design. Define your powertrain combination
and
> > vehicle that it's installed in clearer.
> >
> > -Phil
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Noel Strauss" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:11 PM
> > Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
> >
> >
> >
> > Does anyone have experience with setting up the EFI
> >
> > on a 16 injector BDS bugcatcher? Need help with base fuel map and cold
> > start.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Tue Dec 24 13:21:07 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:21:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
Message-ID: 

If the Gen 6 has a 'primer' function you will need lots of it with that setup..
You can not start a roots blower type engine with no port injectors lean. It
takes a lot of fuel to wet the system down before any amount of fuel reaches the
engine. Even worse you now have this big blower full of fuel try to NOT back
fire the engine. Better to be too rich than too lean or 'just right'.. Lacking
the primer add what might seem like an inordinate amount of cranking fuel in
whatever way you can. Then back off slightly from there. It is never going to
start cold on the first couple of cranks as the fuel path is very long. A simple
way to prime the blower is to have a separate switch for the ignition system and
shut off the spark for about 5 or 6 turns on a cold engine. Flip the ignition on
while still cranking.. 

As a side note I worked on a couple of these. They have exhibited some major tip
in problems that could only be solved with very large amount of accel fuel and
some driveabilty problems, because of the way the injectors are both positioned
and plumbed. One good fix for the driveability was to blank off one of the 3 bug
catcher butterflies. This helped tip in a lot and made it possible to somewhat
modulate the throttle rather than have a 'toggle switch' from idle to full on. 

On another note. Not for nothing but 1000 hp out a supercharged 557 is not that
much.. I have done a N/A 557 and had 750 hp @ 6200 and 750 ft lbs @ 4500 had 600
ft lbs @ 2500 as well with 10/1 compression and pump gas.. Dart CNC ported heads
and Dart 4500 series intake modified for efi with a Kinsler TBody, progressive
and very driveable. The 1071 blower while 'big' and impressive is probably too
big for a street engine. If you have to run the blower at less that 1 to 1 there
will always be issues. Most times you are better served with a smaller blower
running faster as far as response and driving go. It makes the fuel path
essentially shorter as the rotors are turning faster so what goes in on top gets
to the engine sooner. Yes there is more intake air heat but I suppose you have
to know that going in as a roots is generally only 50% efficient to begin with.

Dave

Phil wrote:
> 
> Noel-
> 
> By the looks of the power level you have achieved, it seems as if you
> already have the combination dialed in, yes? What are the issues with the
> engine when cold or at startup?
> 
> If I recall correctly, you should have the 25lb./hr. Ford injectors that
> came with the kit, yes?
> 
> -Phil
>


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From roots66 at flexoink.com  Tue Dec 24 16:22:53 2002
From: roots66 at flexoink.com (Noel Strauss)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:22:53 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
Message-ID: 

Phil
When we were setting it up on the dyno
we did not have enough time to let the cool enough
to set cold start idle. Do you know a ball park setup or starting place for
startup idle?
Injectors are 30lb./hr. Ford.
Noel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe


> Noel-
>
> By the looks of the power level you have achieved, it seems as if you
> already have the combination dialed in, yes? What are the issues with the
> engine when cold or at startup?
>
> If I recall correctly, you should have the 25lb./hr. Ford injectors that
> came with the kit, yes?
>
> -Phil
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Noel Strauss" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 12:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
>
>
> > Phil
> > Please check out my website.
> http://www.corvetteforum.net/classics/noelga/
> > We have only run the motor on dyno.
> > Thanks
> > Noel
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Phil" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 8:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
> >
> >
> > > Noel-
> > >
> > > I have experience with this design. Define your powertrain combination
> and
> > > vehicle that it's installed in clearer.
> > >
> > > -Phil
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Noel Strauss" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:11 PM
> > > Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel GEN 6 and blowe
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Does anyone have experience with setting up the EFI
> > >
> > > on a 16 injector BDS bugcatcher? Need help with base fuel map and cold
> > > start.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Diy_efi mailing list
> > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From bcroe at juno.com  Tue Dec 24 18:32:16 2002
From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:32:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

I'd set up a 4541 chip to do that for really long delays, or 
maybe a 74C123 for short ones.  Check also notes on 555.

Bruce Roe

23 Dec 2002 "Derek"  writes:
> Where can I find some relays with time delay? I have seen 
> plenty of adjustable .1-100s relays, up in the $50-$70 range. 
> I need something simpler. A instant
> ON/fixed delay OFF relay with a delay of about 250-500ms.

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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 24 22:32:57 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 19:32:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

In any case, it didn't work. This is what I did:

GND--------------SWITCH------------------INPUT
                        |                          |
                        ----(-10uf+)-----

Made no difference. ECU still saw the switch as instant ON/OFF. I tried a 3uf,
and a 22uf, no change.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?


> At 12:35 AM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >Most of what you said is greek to me. Hehe. I still understand how to wire it
> >and what to buy, but the theory is past me. Didn't take advanced electronics.
>
> No worries (as we say in Australia), life is an experiment and so
> is electronics and chemistry and ultimately its the same stuff ;-)
>
> >Do I have any danger of hurting anything just giving this a try?
>
> On the basis of what you've told me, I'd say no - but if a hawaian
> atoll gets vaporised in the next few days, I may backtrack on legal
> issues of liability,
>
> have a nice xmas, we had 34.8 deg C today, 36 due tomorrow 
>
> rgds
>
> mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 00:48:08 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 21:48:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

Mike, what kind of things should I ask of the ECU designers about the input
circuit so that you have the info you need to tell me how to make it work?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?


> In any case, it didn't work. This is what I did:
>
> GND--------------SWITCH------------------INPUT
>                         |                          |
>                         ----(-10uf+)-----
>
> Made no difference. ECU still saw the switch as instant ON/OFF. I tried a 3uf,
> and a 22uf, no change.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
>
>
> > At 12:35 AM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> > >Most of what you said is greek to me. Hehe. I still understand how to wire
it
> > >and what to buy, but the theory is past me. Didn't take advanced
electronics.
> >
> > No worries (as we say in Australia), life is an experiment and so
> > is electronics and chemistry and ultimately its the same stuff ;-)
> >
> > >Do I have any danger of hurting anything just giving this a try?
> >
> > On the basis of what you've told me, I'd say no - but if a hawaian
> > atoll gets vaporised in the next few days, I may backtrack on legal
> > issues of liability,
> >
> > have a nice xmas, we had 34.8 deg C today, 36 due tomorrow 
> >
> > rgds
> >
> > mike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 01:46:14 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 22:46:14 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- efi student  wrote:

> What about the effect of a higher system pressure on
> localized boiling and surface wetting for thermal
> transfer?

That is a specialized example of the general rule in
the post you're responding to.  So IOW, I already
covered that.

> Isn't a higher cap pressure going to reduce the size
> of the steam bubbles around the exhaust ports and
> improve thermal transfer?

That depends on whether the system is venting 
through the lower pressure cap or not.  As I
mentioned, if the cap is not venting, then getting one
with a higher venting pressure won't make a difference
in system pressure.


=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Wed Dec 25 01:54:05 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 22:54:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 


try using evans npg coolants. awesome stuff. www.evanscooling.com is the web 
adress. 

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From Nastroma at worldnet.att.net  Wed Dec 25 02:07:38 2002
From: Nastroma at worldnet.att.net (Zane)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:07:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] reluctor sync signal
Message-ID: 

Has anyone on the list modified a reluctor style distributor, the kind
with the star wheel, to use as a sync signal for sequential injection?
This modification would require the removal of 5 sets of prongs, leaving
one set for the sync (motor is a six cylinder). Any information is
appreicated.
Thanks,
Zane


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From ohiobenz at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 02:28:53 2002
From: ohiobenz at yahoo.com (Ohio Benz)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:28:53 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] '93 Ford EFI
Message-ID: 

I have a 93 e-150 with a 302 in it. A couple years ago
I swapped motors with a mustang 302.  I got it with
complete ECU & wiring harness with the intent of
getting rid of the fuel density system.  To make a
long story short - i got into a time crunch and ended
up using the e-150 intake and ecu anyway.
I would still like to "upgrade" to the mustang ecu for
several reasons, availability of cams & chips for one,
higher rev limit for another.
Is there an "easy" way to get rid of the top-end
limiter in the curent e-150 ecu?  I can't cruise over
90mph.
What is the best way of switching a system from fuel
density to MAF?
I'm not much of a sparky - just a gearhead :)

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 25 02:45:00 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:45:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

This is a different circuit to the one I told 'Mos',
try the one I wrote ?

rgds

Mike


At 02:31 PM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>In any case, it didn't work. This is what I did:
>
>GND--------------SWITCH------------------INPUT
>                        |                          |
>                        ----(-10uf+)-----
>
>Made no difference. ECU still saw the switch as instant ON/OFF. I tried a
3uf,
>and a 22uf, no change.
>
>----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:46 PM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
>
>
>> At 12:35 AM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>> >Most of what you said is greek to me. Hehe. I still understand how to
wire it
>> >and what to buy, but the theory is past me. Didn't take advanced
electronics.
>>
>> No worries (as we say in Australia), life is an experiment and so
>> is electronics and chemistry and ultimately its the same stuff ;-)
>>
>> >Do I have any danger of hurting anything just giving this a try?
>>
>> On the basis of what you've told me, I'd say no - but if a hawaian
>> atoll gets vaporised in the next few days, I may backtrack on legal
>> issues of liability,
>>
>> have a nice xmas, we had 34.8 deg C today, 36 due tomorrow 
>>
>> rgds
>>
>> mike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 25 03:02:18 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:02:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

At 04:49 PM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Mike, what kind of things should I ask of the ECU designers about the input
>circuit so that you have the info you need to tell me how to make it work?

Well:-

a.	First make sure the -ve of the cap goes to ground,
	+ve of cap goes to same ECU input as switch.
b.	Try a much larger cap, 22uF may be way too small if
	the pullup is something like 1K Ohm,
	You might need 470uF - 1000uF, if the pullup is 470-1K,
c.	Simultaneously with the above ask them what is the value
	of the internal "pullup".

When doing experiments like these use the 'decade' rule, if something
doesnt seem to make any difference at all when adding a component,
change its value by times 10 until a change is observed then you can
do a binary search in the other direction (unless of course you
have accurate data about the pullup or have already discerned the
formula from previous experiments)...


rgds

mike



rgds

mike





>----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek" 
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 2:31 PM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
>
>
>> In any case, it didn't work. This is what I did:
>>
>> GND--------------SWITCH------------------INPUT
>>                         |                          |
>>                         ----(-10uf+)-----
>>
>> Made no difference. ECU still saw the switch as instant ON/OFF. I tried
a 3uf,
>> and a 22uf, no change.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mike" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
>>
>>
>> > At 12:35 AM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>> > >Most of what you said is greek to me. Hehe. I still understand how to
wire
>it
>> > >and what to buy, but the theory is past me. Didn't take advanced
>electronics.
>> >
>> > No worries (as we say in Australia), life is an experiment and so
>> > is electronics and chemistry and ultimately its the same stuff ;-)
>> >
>> > >Do I have any danger of hurting anything just giving this a try?
>> >
>> > On the basis of what you've told me, I'd say no - but if a hawaian
>> > atoll gets vaporised in the next few days, I may backtrack on legal
>> > issues of liability,
>> >
>> > have a nice xmas, we had 34.8 deg C today, 36 due tomorrow 
>> >
>> > rgds
>> >
>> > mike
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Diy_efi mailing list
>> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From efi.student at sbcglobal.net  Wed Dec 25 03:12:02 2002
From: efi.student at sbcglobal.net (efi student)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:12:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Depends on whether it is venting?  If it isn't venting, then why do I =
see a
difference in the reservoir level between hot and cold on every single =
car
and bike I have worked on?  Seems a bit ludicrous to imply the system
doesn't pressurize to the cap pressure, or why system designers are so =
damn
picky about where you put the cap in the system so that it isn't
artificially affected by pressure from the water pump.  Or even more =
simply,
coolant is relatively incompressible.  Coolant expands when heated.  =
Unless
there is air in the system, the cap must be the limiting factor for =
system
volume because the coolant MUST expand when the engine starts =
transferring
heat, that means the level in the coolant reservoir goes up, but not =
until
the cap pressure is exceeded.

Let's press on with cooling system fundamentals.  I've seen the radiator =
for
an engine producing 1000 hp all day long.  It's a lot bigger than I am, =
and
I'm 6'2".  What vehicle is capable of supporting a radiator that size?  =
None
that I have seen, except one of those Terex dump trucks, but they're
electro-motive so it's apples and oranges there.  I have yet to see a
production vehicle, car or bike, that had a cooling system capable of
sustaining full throttle for more than a minute without being =
overwhelmed.
Sure, it's a design decision that all engineers have to make, how big =
can I
afford to make this radiator, but the point is they all insist that =
higher
system pressure gives better heat transfer both from engine to coolant =
and
coolant to heat exchanger.  You're saying they're not getting it, that
cooling system pressure only applies if you are exceeding design =
pressure?
Maybe I don't understand what you are saying, but all the evidence I =
have
both researched and experienced indicates that higher system pressures =
give
better heat transfer.  NASCAR claims they like it because they can =
reduce
the size of the radiator and therefore improve aerodynamics.  Are you =
saying
this is incorrect?

Oh, I do understand that an engine at idle is pretty unlikely to exceed
design pressure unless the water pump is turning so slowly that the =
coolant
is boiling in the heads.  Completely different world at WOT.

Lance

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org] On =
Behalf
Of Adam Wade
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 5:52 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


--- efi student  wrote:

> What about the effect of a higher system pressure on localized boiling =

> and surface wetting for thermal transfer?

That is a specialized example of the general rule in
the post you're responding to.  So IOW, I already
covered that.

> Isn't a higher cap pressure going to reduce the size
> of the steam bubbles around the exhaust ports and
> improve thermal transfer?

That depends on whether the system is venting=20
through the lower pressure cap or not.  As I
mentioned, if the cap is not venting, then getting one
with a higher venting pressure won't make a difference
in system pressure.


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=3D/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Wed Dec 25 03:32:54 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:32:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

I've seen that stuff before, sounds too good to be true... What I'm
wondering is,

a) Why don't OEMs use it? Many less plumbing-related failures seems
tempting.
b) They say it pulls heat away from the head better, how about from the
coolant -> radiator? If coolant temps can be kept higher, that would
certainly help.

I'm not familar with thermal transfer in liquids, is thermal conductivity a
big issue like it is in heat sinks, or are viscosity and surface tension
more important? I'm wonding if you need to increase thermostat temp. to get
the same heat rejected thru the radiator.

http://www.evanscooling.com/main20.htm

I can see why it might need a high flow water pump with its lower specific
heat

Grant Beaty

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


> 
try using evans npg coolants. awesome stuff. www.evanscooling.com is
the web
> adress.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Wed Dec 25 03:55:36 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:55:36 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Sorry for the 2nd post, but from what I found on Google, water has about 3x
the thermal conductivity of Evan's Coolant. Couldn't find anything on 25/75
water/coolant mixes.

Grant

----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Beaty" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


> I've seen that stuff before, sounds too good to be true... What I'm
> wondering is,
>
> a) Why don't OEMs use it? Many less plumbing-related failures seems
> tempting.
> b) They say it pulls heat away from the head better, how about from the
> coolant -> radiator? If coolant temps can be kept higher, that would
> certainly help.
>
> I'm not familar with thermal transfer in liquids, is thermal conductivity
a
> big issue like it is in heat sinks, or are viscosity and surface tension
> more important? I'm wonding if you need to increase thermostat temp. to
get
> the same heat rejected thru the radiator.
>
> http://www.evanscooling.com/main20.htm
>
> I can see why it might need a high flow water pump with its lower specific
> heat
>
> Grant Beaty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
>
>
> > 
try using evans npg coolants. awesome stuff. www.evanscooling.com
is
> the web
> > adress.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 25 03:58:04 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:58:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

At 08:41 PM 24/12/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>I've seen that stuff before, sounds too good to be true... What I'm
>wondering is,
>
>a) Why don't OEMs use it? Many less plumbing-related failures seems
>tempting.

mmm, Probably issue of cost of the fluid (in that the margins
are likely to be less in comaprison) *and* the higher viscosity
may mean higher loads on the pump and less power - I dont see how
they can claim more power as the viscosity of the product is 10 times
greater than water from their own table. Also, what happens if
there is a head failure and causes hose to burst spraying this in
the engine bay - chemical damage ? Is it flammible ?

>b) They say it pulls heat away from the head better, how about from the
>coolant -> radiator? If coolant temps can be kept higher, that would
>certainly help.

The nucleate boiling issue may be the only key issue all else being
equal, in that case - why not run higher pressures with an active
system to keep the pressure up.

A friend of mine, replaced the water in his Ford Laser with 100%
ethylene glycol, had it burst and sprayed it all over his engine
bay with all sorts of connector/cable problems thereafter :(
I know this stuff is Propylene Glycol, but whats the effect on
vinyls, plastics and the like ?

rgds

Mike



>
>I'm not familar with thermal transfer in liquids, is thermal conductivity a
>big issue like it is in heat sinks, or are viscosity and surface tension
>more important? I'm wonding if you need to increase thermostat temp. to get
>the same heat rejected thru the radiator.
>
>http://www.evanscooling.com/main20.htm
>
>I can see why it might need a high flow water pump with its lower specific
>heat
>
>Grant Beaty
>
>----- Original Message -----
From: 
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
>
>
>> 
try using evans npg coolants. awesome stuff. www.evanscooling.com is
>the web
>> adress.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>
>

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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Wed Dec 25 04:26:35 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 01:26:35 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

> The nucleate boiling issue may be the only key issue all else being
> equal, in that case - why not run higher pressures with an active
> system to keep the pressure up.
>
> Mike

That makes sense, otherwise you'd see F1 teams using it. But they can just
run stupidly high system pressures, and keep the radiator size smaller than
it would be w/ Evans, for less drag.

Us poor folks with rubber hoses may not want to run 50psi though ;)

Grant



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From clay0052 at umn.edu  Wed Dec 25 04:54:48 2002
From: clay0052 at umn.edu (M. Claywell)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 01:54:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

On 23 Dec 2002, Adam Wade wrote:
> --- Grant Beaty  wrote:
> 
> > Ah, so its all from the better transfer from engine
> > -> coolant.
> 
> Yeah, as you raise the coolant temp, the pressure
> rises (of course), but as you have more heat going
> INTO the coolant, you won't be able to get it out as
> easily as you get it in (because air is a lot harder
> to heat than metal or coolant).  Theoretically, you
> want the coolant as hot as possible, since it'll shed
> heat more quickly if it is hotter, but then you run
> into design issues with the cooling system's pressure,
> what to make the hoses from, etc.
> 
> > I already knew that heat transfer is proportional to
> > delta T ;) I was talking about pressure alone.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by that...  Again, the
> hotter the coolant temp, the more heat will be shed to
> air of a given temp, but to get coolant temps higher
> without reducing radiator area, you're going to
> itroduce heat more quickly than you can shed it (from
> additional coolant temp), meaning there's actually a
> disadvantge in the real world in most cases.
> 
> Particular engines seem to have a coolant temperature
> that they "like" best for best power.  I know a little
> of the science behind it, but not enough to really
> talk about it seriously.  I'd definitely be interested
> in knowing more about that.

Gotta agree with you there. I have done some coolant temp sweeps to try to
find a max power spot, while holding lamba constant, and somewhat adjusting
advance at each point. Volumetric efficiency goes down with increasing
coolant temp (due to heating of the air), but cylinder friction can go down
with increasing coolant temp (lower viscosity of oil), and thermal
efficiency and combustion efficiency can sometimes go up.

I think coolant temp has to be a comprimise between what the cooling system
can support in heat transfer, aero drag, and max power.

Mark 


> 
> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
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From clay0052 at umn.edu  Wed Dec 25 05:00:38 2002
From: clay0052 at umn.edu (M. Claywell)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:00:38 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 



On 23 Dec 2002, Adam Wade wrote:
> --- Grant Beaty  wrote:
> 
> > So higher cooling system temp helps heat transfer
> > from coolant -> radiator as well as engine ->
> > coolant?
> 
> Yep.  That's physics for ya.  ;)  The larger the
> differential between two temperatures, the faster the
> heat transfer.

True, however the heat transfer rate (Q dot) for the engine-> coolant must
go down as coolant temperature goes up. However, if you look at increasing
coolant temperature lets say from average of 90C to 120C, and the air temp
is 20C, and the average head temp at the water jacket surface is
250-350C(guessing here) then there is a much larger percent difference in
the the temp difference for the coolant to air than comapared to the jacket
to coolant. See what I am saying? Hotter coolant will decrease the heat
transfer from head to coolant but higher coolant temp should more than make
up more this loss due to the higher heat transfer to the air surrounding
the radiator (assuming the radiator is properly designed and not limited
due to some other factor).

Q_dot (heat transfer rate) = h * A * (Temp difference) 

h is a heat transfer coefficient and takes into account every imagineable
enviromental factor (really fudge factor, as I think of it). A is surface
area.

> Fourier's Law: The heat flux resulting from thermal
> conduction is proportional to the magnitude of the
> temperature gradient and opposite to it in sign.
> 
> Since the thermal conductivity between a radiator's
> metal and the air is the lowest thermal conductivity
> of anything in the circuit, increasing coolant temps
> by pumping more heat into the system from the cylinder
> head WILL result in an increase in coolant temps,
> because getting the heat out to the air is the
> "hardest" part of the circuit.  But higher coolant
> temps will shed more heat to the air than lower
> coolant temps, and the opposite is also true for air
> temps; it's the differential.  IT's also one of the
> reasons vehicles are more likely to boil over in hot
> weather, and why some people put cardboard in front of
> part of their radiator in cold weather (although if
> their thermostat is working properly, that's not
> really necessary).

Convective heat transfer is going be the limiting factor for heat transfer
from the coolant to the air, or the cyl. head, etc to the coolant. Did you
mean convection instead of conduction??

Mark


> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
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From Djfreggens at aol.com  Wed Dec 25 05:05:08 2002
From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:05:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 


they have npg+ now which is a drop in fill replacement. apparently the 
reformulation has a higher thermal capacity as well as improved viscosity ive 
run it in turbo 4cyls with 20 psi of boost on 89 octane with no detonation 
stuff works.

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From clay0052 at umn.edu  Wed Dec 25 05:09:55 2002
From: clay0052 at umn.edu (M. Claywell)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:09:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

On 24 Dec 2002, Grant Beaty wrote:
> I was wondering if cooling system pressure effected the heat exchanged
with
> all other things being equal, including radiator inlet temps. I noticed
no
> higher coolant temps (the probe is where the coolant exits the block)
with a
> 19-21 psi cap compared to stock 16 psi.

What was the system pressure getting up to? If the system pressure was NOT
blowing off the 16psi cap, then putting a higher pressure cap is not going
to change the pressure that the system gets to, provided the same
temperature. Getting to a certain temperature is the mosst part of what
generates the pressure. 

With that said, I would run the highest pressure cap that you feel you can
safely run on your system. For motorcyles I usually buy something over
25psi. Most decent systems on cars and bikes that I have seen tested have
never seem to have any problems going to 35psi or more, and would hold
pressure. 

Mark 




> > Particular engines seem to have a coolant temperature
> > that they "like" best for best power.  I know a little
> > of the science behind it, but not enough to really
> > talk about it seriously.  I'd definitely be interested
> > in knowing more about that.
> 
> On my car, doing dyno runs with cold coolant didn't change the HP output
at
> all - although I didn't exactly try and optimize timing and fuel maps for
> the cold temps. On the street, I don't see any more knock with the stock
> (180F) thermostat than a colder one. Of course this is veeery far from
> scientific testing :)
> 
> Grant Beaty
> '97 Supra T
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Wade" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 4:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
> 
> 
> > --- Grant Beaty  wrote:
> >
> > > Ah, so its all from the better transfer from engine
> > > -> coolant.
> >
> > Yeah, as you raise the coolant temp, the pressure
> > rises (of course), but as you have more heat going
> > INTO the coolant, you won't be able to get it out as
> > easily as you get it in (because air is a lot harder
> > to heat than metal or coolant).  Theoretically, you
> > want the coolant as hot as possible, since it'll shed
> > heat more quickly if it is hotter, but then you run
> > into design issues with the cooling system's pressure,
> > what to make the hoses from, etc.
> >
> > > I already knew that heat transfer is proportional to
> > > delta T ;) I was talking about pressure alone.
> >
> > I'm not sure what you mean by that...  Again, the
> > hotter the coolant temp, the more heat will be shed to
> > air of a given temp, but to get coolant temps higher
> > without reducing radiator area, you're going to
> > itroduce heat more quickly than you can shed it (from
> > additional coolant temp), meaning there's actually a
> > disadvantge in the real world in most cases.
> >
> > Particular engines seem to have a coolant temperature
> > that they "like" best for best power.  I know a little
> > of the science behind it, but not enough to really
> > talk about it seriously.  I'd definitely be interested
> > in knowing more about that.
> >
> >
> > =====
> > | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> > |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> > |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> > |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> > |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> > |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> 
> 
> 
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From clay0052 at umn.edu  Wed Dec 25 05:15:11 2002
From: clay0052 at umn.edu (M. Claywell)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:15:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

On 24 Dec 2002, Adam Wade wrote:
> --- efi student  wrote:
> 
> > What about the effect of a higher system pressure on
> > localized boiling and surface wetting for thermal
> > transfer?
> 
> That is a specialized example of the general rule in
> the post you're responding to.  So IOW, I already
> covered that.
> 
> > Isn't a higher cap pressure going to reduce the size
> > of the steam bubbles around the exhaust ports and
> > improve thermal transfer?
> 
> That depends on whether the system is venting 
> through the lower pressure cap or not.  As I
> mentioned, if the cap is not venting, then getting one
> with a higher venting pressure won't make a difference
> in system pressure.

Perhaps he is thinking of a pre-pressurized system like that is used in
most modern race cars. That would make a difference, but like I and Adam
have said, just putting a higher pressure cap on, if the system is not
leaking, is going to change the system pressure. It is only a safety
pressure relief valve. I would still stick with the higher pressure one if
it's working for you.

Mark






> 
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 



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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 25 05:15:27 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:15:27 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

At 11:56 PM 24/12/2002 EST, you wrote:
>
they have npg+ now which is a drop in fill replacement. apparently the 
>reformulation has a higher thermal capacity as well as improved viscosity
ive 
>run it in turbo 4cyls with 20 psi of boost on 89 octane with no detonation 
>stuff works.

comparatively speaking ;)

*grin*

-	What fuel do you use, octane ? (dont worry about flame speed ;)

-	Have you changed the radiator cap so its fully venting ?

-	Do you have any measurements on coolant temp under any particular
	load conditions ?

-	Any difference in power output given its much higher viscosity ?

rgds

Mike


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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Wed Dec 25 05:26:48 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:26:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

> Perhaps he is thinking of a pre-pressurized system like that is used in
> most modern race cars. That would make a difference, but like I and Adam
> have said, just putting a higher pressure cap on, if the system is not
> leaking, is going to change the system pressure. It is only a safety
> pressure relief valve. I would still stick with the higher pressure one if
> it's working for you.
>
> Mark

Then how do you explain the coolant overflow level changing? If the level
goes up as the car is warmed up, the cap must have opened. If the cap opens,
cooling system pressure must be >= the cap vent pressure.

I don't have 1/100th of the experience of other people here, but every car
I've seen with airless coolant pushes a bit out when fully warm. How
couldn't it? A quick search revealed the expansion of seawater to be 0.00021
% / C. So if the coolant went from 30 - 100C, it would gain 1.4% volume, or
about a liter in my case (although I don't use salt water for coolant ;)

Grant "bah humbug" B.

----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Claywell" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


> On 24 Dec 2002, Adam Wade wrote:
> > --- efi student  wrote:
> >
> > > What about the effect of a higher system pressure on
> > > localized boiling and surface wetting for thermal
> > > transfer?
> >
> > That is a specialized example of the general rule in
> > the post you're responding to.  So IOW, I already
> > covered that.
> >
> > > Isn't a higher cap pressure going to reduce the size
> > > of the steam bubbles around the exhaust ports and
> > > improve thermal transfer?
> >
> > That depends on whether the system is venting
> > through the lower pressure cap or not.  As I
> > mentioned, if the cap is not venting, then getting one
> > with a higher venting pressure won't make a difference
> > in system pressure.
>
> Perhaps he is thinking of a pre-pressurized system like that is used in
> most modern race cars. That would make a difference, but like I and Adam
> have said, just putting a higher pressure cap on, if the system is not
> leaking, is going to change the system pressure. It is only a safety
> pressure relief valve. I would still stick with the higher pressure one if
> it's working for you.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > =====
> > | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> > |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> > |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> > |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> > |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> > |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
>
>
>
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From clay0052 at umn.edu  Wed Dec 25 05:55:23 2002
From: clay0052 at umn.edu (M. Claywell)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:55:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 




On 24 Dec 2002, efi student wrote:
> Depends on whether it is venting?  If it isn't venting, then why do I =
> see a
> difference in the reservoir level between hot and cold on every single =
> car
> and bike I have worked on?  

I believe you answered you own question a few lines down.

quote: "Coolant expands when heated."

If we say that the total volume that the coolant and air in the system is
constant, and if the coolant is expanding, then the air is compressing,
thus the result is a resultant pressure. No cap on or leaky hose means you
don't get pressure. 


Seems a bit ludicrous to imply the system
> doesn't pressurize to the cap pressure, or why system designers are so =
> damn
> picky about where you put the cap in the system so that it isn't
> artificially affected by pressure from the water pump. 

The cap only relieves pressure, nothing more nothing less. If you get up to
the relief pressure of the cap, you leak some air, which means that you
will lose some pressure without a doubt. Most likely in just about all
cases, once you get into a situation where you start venting, you are going
to overheat, unless it was just a fluke. 

Where you locate your cap or your pressure relief valve does make a
difference, I agree. The reason is that the lowest pressure in the system
is right before the pump. You want the pressure relief device to see that
pressure. Most race systems have a header tank that has a tube that is
plumbed in to tap in to right before the pump. If you were to turn the pump
off while the system was still hot, there obvioulsly would still be
pressure, but then with the pump on, it provides additional pressure around
the circuit, with resultant pressure drops along each part/whatever.
Placing the radiator cap after the pump would place the cap under a higher
pressure, but the pressure the system sees at various points would be no
different. So if the pressure is 35 psi after the pump and 31 before the
pump, and you have a 34 psi cap, you are going to be screwed if you put it
after the pump. 

> Or even more =
> simply,
> coolant is relatively incompressible.  Coolant expands when heated.  

But air is compressible. I don't understand what point you were making
about the coolant being incompressible. Not trying to be an ass, I just
don't see what your are trying to say.

> Unless
> there is air in the system, the cap must be the limiting factor for =
> system
> volume because the coolant MUST expand when the engine starts =
> transferring
> heat, that means the level in the coolant reservoir goes up, but not =
> until
> the cap pressure is exceeded.

Hook up a pressure guage or transducer close to your cap and watch the
pressure. Then vent the cap (if you have one with a venting lever) and see
what the pressure does. Better yet take the cap off when it's about 60 or
70C then put it back on and keep driving.

> Let's press on with cooling system fundamentals.  I've seen the radiator
=
> for
> an engine producing 1000 hp all day long.  It's a lot bigger than I am, =
> and
> I'm 6'2".  What vehicle is capable of supporting a radiator that size?  =
> None

Depends on how fast it's moving and depends on the coolant flow rate to a
very large degree. 

> that I have seen, except one of those Terex dump trucks, but they're
> electro-motive so it's apples and oranges there.  I have yet to see a
> production vehicle, car or bike, that had a cooling system capable of
> sustaining full throttle for more than a minute without being =
> overwhelmed.
> Sure, it's a design decision that all engineers have to make, how big =
> can I
> afford to make this radiator, but the point is they all insist that =
> higher
> system pressure gives better heat transfer both from engine to coolant =
> and
> coolant to heat exchanger.  You're saying they're not getting it, that
> cooling system pressure only applies if you are exceeding design =
> pressure?

Nope. There is pressure there. I believe the point that Adam and I made, is
that in an Non Pre-Pressurized system (basically what most people drive) if
you are NOT VENTING with a 16 psi cap, then going up to a higher pressure
cap is not going to make a difference. 

I totally agree that pre-pressurizing will definetely help in cooling in
many situations and will help to avoid or reduce nucleate boiling on inital
warm up and at higher temps. Obviously increasing pressure in a convential
sytem will help to reduce nucleate boiling. And of course you have to raise
the pressure to raise the boiling point. However, a convential system must
be heated to provide the pressure. The benefit of a pre-pressurized system
is that you reduce nucleate boiling right away / at lower temps. 


> Maybe I don't understand what you are saying, but all the evidence I =
> have
> both researched and experienced indicates that higher system pressures =
> give
> better heat transfer.  NASCAR claims they like it because they can =
> reduce
> the size of the radiator and therefore improve aerodynamics.  Are you =
> saying
> this is incorrect?

I agree with you, higher pressure should help heat transfer if it is
decreasing nucleate boiling, or it is allowing you to run a much higher
coolant temperature due to boiling point elevation.

Cheers,
Mark







> Oh, I do understand that an engine at idle is pretty unlikely to exceed
> design pressure unless the water pump is turning so slowly that the =
> coolant
> is boiling in the heads.  Completely different world at WOT.
> 
> Lance
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org] On =
> Behalf
> Of Adam Wade
> Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 5:52 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
> 
> 
> --- efi student  wrote:
> 
> > What about the effect of a higher system pressure on localized boiling
=
> 
> > and surface wetting for thermal transfer?
> 
> That is a specialized example of the general rule in
> the post you're responding to.  So IOW, I already
> covered that.
> 
> > Isn't a higher cap pressure going to reduce the size
> > of the steam bubbles around the exhaust ports and
> > improve thermal transfer?
> 
> That depends on whether the system is venting=20
> through the lower pressure cap or not.  As I
> mentioned, if the cap is not venting, then getting one
> with a higher venting pressure won't make a difference
> in system pressure.
> 
> 
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=3D/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Wed Dec 25 05:56:10 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:56:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

>But air is compressible. I don't understand what point you were making
>about the coolant being incompressible. Not trying to be an ass, I just
>don't see what your are trying to say.

Your well-maintaned cooling sys has almost zero air correct? Lets say it is
zero. So as the car is warming up, coolant is expanding. Since coolant
doesn't compress, any gain in volume would produce an infinite gain in
pressure unless something gave way. In our case, the cap vents and gives
way. The spring pressure in the cap determines cooling system pressure.

Whats wrong with my logic?

Grant Beaty

----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Claywell" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


>
>
>
> On 24 Dec 2002, efi student wrote:
> > Depends on whether it is venting?  If it isn't venting, then why do I =
> > see a
> > difference in the reservoir level between hot and cold on every single =
> > car
> > and bike I have worked on?
>
> I believe you answered you own question a few lines down.
>
> quote: "Coolant expands when heated."
>
> If we say that the total volume that the coolant and air in the system is
> constant, and if the coolant is expanding, then the air is compressing,
> thus the result is a resultant pressure. No cap on or leaky hose means you
> don't get pressure.
>
>
> Seems a bit ludicrous to imply the system
> > doesn't pressurize to the cap pressure, or why system designers are so =
> > damn
> > picky about where you put the cap in the system so that it isn't
> > artificially affected by pressure from the water pump.
>
> The cap only relieves pressure, nothing more nothing less. If you get up
to
> the relief pressure of the cap, you leak some air, which means that you
> will lose some pressure without a doubt. Most likely in just about all
> cases, once you get into a situation where you start venting, you are
going
> to overheat, unless it was just a fluke.
>
> Where you locate your cap or your pressure relief valve does make a
> difference, I agree. The reason is that the lowest pressure in the system
> is right before the pump. You want the pressure relief device to see that
> pressure. Most race systems have a header tank that has a tube that is
> plumbed in to tap in to right before the pump. If you were to turn the
pump
> off while the system was still hot, there obvioulsly would still be
> pressure, but then with the pump on, it provides additional pressure
around
> the circuit, with resultant pressure drops along each part/whatever.
> Placing the radiator cap after the pump would place the cap under a higher
> pressure, but the pressure the system sees at various points would be no
> different. So if the pressure is 35 psi after the pump and 31 before the
> pump, and you have a 34 psi cap, you are going to be screwed if you put it
> after the pump.
>
> > Or even more =
> > simply,
> > coolant is relatively incompressible.  Coolant expands when heated.
>
> But air is compressible. I don't understand what point you were making
> about the coolant being incompressible. Not trying to be an ass, I just
> don't see what your are trying to say.
>
> > Unless
> > there is air in the system, the cap must be the limiting factor for =
> > system
> > volume because the coolant MUST expand when the engine starts =
> > transferring
> > heat, that means the level in the coolant reservoir goes up, but not =
> > until
> > the cap pressure is exceeded.
>
> Hook up a pressure guage or transducer close to your cap and watch the
> pressure. Then vent the cap (if you have one with a venting lever) and see
> what the pressure does. Better yet take the cap off when it's about 60 or
> 70C then put it back on and keep driving.
>
> > Let's press on with cooling system fundamentals.  I've seen the radiator
> =
> > for
> > an engine producing 1000 hp all day long.  It's a lot bigger than I am,
=
> > and
> > I'm 6'2".  What vehicle is capable of supporting a radiator that size?
=
> > None
>
> Depends on how fast it's moving and depends on the coolant flow rate to a
> very large degree.
>
> > that I have seen, except one of those Terex dump trucks, but they're
> > electro-motive so it's apples and oranges there.  I have yet to see a
> > production vehicle, car or bike, that had a cooling system capable of
> > sustaining full throttle for more than a minute without being =
> > overwhelmed.
> > Sure, it's a design decision that all engineers have to make, how big =
> > can I
> > afford to make this radiator, but the point is they all insist that =
> > higher
> > system pressure gives better heat transfer both from engine to coolant =
> > and
> > coolant to heat exchanger.  You're saying they're not getting it, that
> > cooling system pressure only applies if you are exceeding design =
> > pressure?
>
> Nope. There is pressure there. I believe the point that Adam and I made,
is
> that in an Non Pre-Pressurized system (basically what most people drive)
if
> you are NOT VENTING with a 16 psi cap, then going up to a higher pressure
> cap is not going to make a difference.
>
> I totally agree that pre-pressurizing will definetely help in cooling in
> many situations and will help to avoid or reduce nucleate boiling on
inital
> warm up and at higher temps. Obviously increasing pressure in a convential
> sytem will help to reduce nucleate boiling. And of course you have to
raise
> the pressure to raise the boiling point. However, a convential system must
> be heated to provide the pressure. The benefit of a pre-pressurized system
> is that you reduce nucleate boiling right away / at lower temps.
>
>
> > Maybe I don't understand what you are saying, but all the evidence I =
> > have
> > both researched and experienced indicates that higher system pressures =
> > give
> > better heat transfer.  NASCAR claims they like it because they can =
> > reduce
> > the size of the radiator and therefore improve aerodynamics.  Are you =
> > saying
> > this is incorrect?
>
> I agree with you, higher pressure should help heat transfer if it is
> decreasing nucleate boiling, or it is allowing you to run a much higher
> coolant temperature due to boiling point elevation.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Oh, I do understand that an engine at idle is pretty unlikely to exceed
> > design pressure unless the water pump is turning so slowly that the =
> > coolant
> > is boiling in the heads.  Completely different world at WOT.
> >
> > Lance
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org] On =
> > Behalf
> > Of Adam Wade
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 5:52 PM
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
> >
> >
> > --- efi student  wrote:
> >
> > > What about the effect of a higher system pressure on localized boiling
> =
> >
> > > and surface wetting for thermal transfer?
> >
> > That is a specialized example of the general rule in
> > the post you're responding to.  So IOW, I already
> > covered that.
> >
> > > Isn't a higher cap pressure going to reduce the size
> > > of the steam bubbles around the exhaust ports and
> > > improve thermal transfer?
> >
> > That depends on whether the system is venting=20
> > through the lower pressure cap or not.  As I
> > mentioned, if the cap is not venting, then getting one
> > with a higher venting pressure won't make a difference
> > in system pressure.
> >
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> > |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=3D/   |
> > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> > |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> > |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> > |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> > |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



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From bcroe at juno.com  Wed Dec 25 05:59:02 2002
From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 02:59:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

The info you need to do some design, is a "load line" for 
the lead coming to the switch.  This could be a single line 
on a graph, or perhaps one with a knee.  

To get some info, measure a few points.  First measure 
the voltage with the wire open circuit.  Then put a 10 ohm 
resistor to grd and measure the voltage.  Try a 100 ohm.  
The idea is to find spots with voltages spread along the 
space between zero and maximum voltage.

For each measurement, you have a voltage and a current. 
Calculated current is voltage measured divided by the resistance 
used.  Make a plot of voltage vs current, and now we can 
better access what is needed.

Bruce Roe

24 Dec 2002 "Derek"  writes:
> Mike, what kind of things should I ask of the ECU designers 
> about the input circuit so that you have the info you need to 
> tell me how to make it work?

_______________________________________________
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From efi.student at sbcglobal.net  Wed Dec 25 06:13:00 2002
From: efi.student at sbcglobal.net (efi student)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 03:13:00 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Exactly the point I was raising.  While I know that the pressure at the =
cap
isn't the same system wide, it does set pressure at a known point in the
system.  Unless I am completely misunderstanding the physics of the
situation.

I agree that a prepressurized system will minimize nucleate boiling =
sooner,
but I don't see how a properly functioning system at operating =
temperature
wouldn't do exactly the same thing.  And certainly I agree with the =
"remove
the cap" test.  Removing the cap after the coolant has reached operating
temperature takes all the pressure out of the system, reduces the =
boiling
point to atmospheric, and the system will never recover without =
additional
coolant expansion to repressurize the system.  Or am I missing something
really basic here?

Lance

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org] On =
Behalf
Of Grant Beaty
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 10:03 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


>But air is compressible. I don't understand what point you were making=20
>about the coolant being incompressible. Not trying to be an ass, I just =

>don't see what your are trying to say.

Your well-maintaned cooling sys has almost zero air correct? Lets say it =
is
zero. So as the car is warming up, coolant is expanding. Since coolant
doesn't compress, any gain in volume would produce an infinite gain in
pressure unless something gave way. In our case, the cap vents and gives
way. The spring pressure in the cap determines cooling system pressure.

Whats wrong with my logic?

Grant Beaty

----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Claywell" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


>
>
>
> On 24 Dec 2002, efi student wrote:
> > Depends on whether it is venting?  If it isn't venting, then why do=20
> > I =3D see a difference in the reservoir level between hot and cold =
on=20
> > every single =3D car
> > and bike I have worked on?
>
> I believe you answered you own question a few lines down.
>
> quote: "Coolant expands when heated."
>
> If we say that the total volume that the coolant and air in the system =

> is constant, and if the coolant is expanding, then the air is=20
> compressing, thus the result is a resultant pressure. No cap on or=20
> leaky hose means you don't get pressure.
>
>
> Seems a bit ludicrous to imply the system
> > doesn't pressurize to the cap pressure, or why system designers are=20
> > so =3D damn picky about where you put the cap in the system so that =
it=20
> > isn't artificially affected by pressure from the water pump.
>
> The cap only relieves pressure, nothing more nothing less. If you get=20
> up
to
> the relief pressure of the cap, you leak some air, which means that=20
> you will lose some pressure without a doubt. Most likely in just about =

> all cases, once you get into a situation where you start venting, you=20
> are
going
> to overheat, unless it was just a fluke.
>
> Where you locate your cap or your pressure relief valve does make a=20
> difference, I agree. The reason is that the lowest pressure in the=20
> system is right before the pump. You want the pressure relief device=20
> to see that pressure. Most race systems have a header tank that has a=20
> tube that is plumbed in to tap in to right before the pump. If you=20
> were to turn the
pump
> off while the system was still hot, there obvioulsly would still be=20
> pressure, but then with the pump on, it provides additional pressure
around
> the circuit, with resultant pressure drops along each part/whatever.=20
> Placing the radiator cap after the pump would place the cap under a=20
> higher pressure, but the pressure the system sees at various points=20
> would be no different. So if the pressure is 35 psi after the pump and =

> 31 before the pump, and you have a 34 psi cap, you are going to be=20
> screwed if you put it after the pump.
>
> > Or even more =3D
> > simply,
> > coolant is relatively incompressible.  Coolant expands when heated.
>
> But air is compressible. I don't understand what point you were making =

> about the coolant being incompressible. Not trying to be an ass, I=20
> just don't see what your are trying to say.
>
> > Unless
> > there is air in the system, the cap must be the limiting factor for=20
> > =3D system volume because the coolant MUST expand when the engine=20
> > starts =3D transferring
> > heat, that means the level in the coolant reservoir goes up, but not =
=3D
> > until
> > the cap pressure is exceeded.
>
> Hook up a pressure guage or transducer close to your cap and watch the =

> pressure. Then vent the cap (if you have one with a venting lever) and =

> see what the pressure does. Better yet take the cap off when it's=20
> about 60 or 70C then put it back on and keep driving.
>
> > Let's press on with cooling system fundamentals.  I've seen the=20
> > radiator
> =3D
> > for
> > an engine producing 1000 hp all day long.  It's a lot bigger than I=20
> > am,
=3D
> > and
> > I'm 6'2".  What vehicle is capable of supporting a radiator that=20
> > size?
=3D
> > None
>
> Depends on how fast it's moving and depends on the coolant flow rate=20
> to a very large degree.
>
> > that I have seen, except one of those Terex dump trucks, but they're =

> > electro-motive so it's apples and oranges there.  I have yet to see=20
> > a production vehicle, car or bike, that had a cooling system capable =

> > of sustaining full throttle for more than a minute without being =3D =

> > overwhelmed. Sure, it's a design decision that all engineers have to =

> > make, how big =3D can I
> > afford to make this radiator, but the point is they all insist that =
=3D
> > higher
> > system pressure gives better heat transfer both from engine to =
coolant =3D
> > and
> > coolant to heat exchanger.  You're saying they're not getting it, =
that
> > cooling system pressure only applies if you are exceeding design =3D
> > pressure?
>
> Nope. There is pressure there. I believe the point that Adam and I=20
> made,
is
> that in an Non Pre-Pressurized system (basically what most people=20
> drive)
if
> you are NOT VENTING with a 16 psi cap, then going up to a higher=20
> pressure cap is not going to make a difference.
>
> I totally agree that pre-pressurizing will definetely help in cooling=20
> in many situations and will help to avoid or reduce nucleate boiling=20
> on
inital
> warm up and at higher temps. Obviously increasing pressure in a=20
> convential sytem will help to reduce nucleate boiling. And of course=20
> you have to
raise
> the pressure to raise the boiling point. However, a convential system=20
> must be heated to provide the pressure. The benefit of a=20
> pre-pressurized system is that you reduce nucleate boiling right away=20
> / at lower temps.
>
>
> > Maybe I don't understand what you are saying, but all the evidence I =

> > =3D have both researched and experienced indicates that higher =
system=20
> > pressures =3D give
> > better heat transfer.  NASCAR claims they like it because they can =
=3D
> > reduce
> > the size of the radiator and therefore improve aerodynamics.  Are =
you =3D
> > saying
> > this is incorrect?
>
> I agree with you, higher pressure should help heat transfer if it is=20
> decreasing nucleate boiling, or it is allowing you to run a much=20
> higher coolant temperature due to boiling point elevation.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Oh, I do understand that an engine at idle is pretty unlikely to=20
> > exceed design pressure unless the water pump is turning so slowly=20
> > that the =3D coolant is boiling in the heads.  Completely different=20
> > world at WOT.
> >
> > Lance
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]=20
> > On =3D Behalf Of Adam Wade
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 5:52 PM
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
> >
> >
> > --- efi student  wrote:
> >
> > > What about the effect of a higher system pressure on localized=20
> > > boiling
> =3D
> >
> > > and surface wetting for thermal transfer?
> >
> > That is a specialized example of the general rule in
> > the post you're responding to.  So IOW, I already
> > covered that.
> >
> > > Isn't a higher cap pressure going to reduce the size
> > > of the steam bubbles around the exhaust ports and
> > > improve thermal transfer?
> >
> > That depends on whether the system is venting=3D20
> > through the lower pressure cap or not.  As I
> > mentioned, if the cap is not venting, then getting one
> > with a higher venting pressure won't make a difference
> > in system pressure.
> >
> >
> > =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
> > | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> > |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=3D3D/   =
|
> > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> > |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> > |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> > |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> > |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.=20
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 06:19:57 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 03:19:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- efi student  wrote:

> Depends on whether it is venting?  If it isn't
> venting, then why do I see a difference in the
> reservoir level between hot and cold on every single
> car and bike I have worked on?

I guess your sample size isn't big enough.

Obviously, the ones you are working on are venting to
one dergee or another, if the ones with a lower cap
blowloff pressure are leaving higher reservoir levels.

> Seems a bit ludicrous to imply the system
> doesn't pressurize to the cap pressure,

On a goodly number of vehicles, it doesn't.  For
instance, vehicles without a reservoir don't leave
coolant all over the ground, ergo...

> or why system designers are so damn picky about
> where you put the cap in the system so that it isn't
> artificially affected by pressure from the water
> pump.

Which designers told you this was their reasoning?

The location of the cap, in my experience, has far
more to do with where air ends up in the system than
anything else.

> Unless there is air in the system, the cap must be
> the limiting factor for system volume

ITYM system MASS, unless you are counting coolant
outside of the actual cooling circuit as part of the
"system".

> because the coolant MUST expand when the
> engine starts transferring heat, that means the
> level in the coolant reservoir goes up, but not
> until the cap pressure is exceeded.

True.  How much do you think coolant expands when
heated?  Short of reaching its vapor pressure, of
course.

> I have yet to see a production vehicle, car or bike,
> that had a cooling system capable of sustaining full
> throttle for more than a minute without being
> overwhelmed.

How odd.  I wonder how people manage to do so without
blowing coolant hoses left and right.  Tractor
trailers do so on mountainsides all day long.  Racing
vehicles do so on courses like Daytona without any ill
effects.  Hm.

> but the point is they all insist that higher
> system pressure gives better heat transfer both from
> engine to coolant and coolant to heat exchanger.  

Unless the temperature is different, that's not
possible, as far as I can see.  Fourier's Law doesn't
factor in pressure.  Heat transfers based on
conductivity and temperature differences.  Pressure
increases raise your boiling point, but if your
coolant temp doesn't change, heat transfer isn't
affected.

> Maybe I don't understand what you are saying, but
> all the evidence I have both researched and
> experienced indicates that higher system pressures
> give better heat transfer.

If you have proven Fourier's Law wrong, your name
should be in the physics journals!

Raising the boiling point of the coolant by
pressureizing the system raises the delta temp between
ambient and coolant, which will increase heat transfer
to a point.

> NASCAR claims they like it because they can reduce
> the size of the radiator and therefore improve
> aerodynamics.  Are you saying this is incorrect?

After thinking it through while answering, it sounds
like you are missing how those concepts of boiling
point and system pressure are linked.

> Oh, I do understand that an engine at idle is pretty
> unlikely to exceed design pressure unless the water
> pump is turning so slowly that the coolant is
> boiling in the heads.  Completely different world
> at WOT.

Seems to me that if your water pump exceeds cap
pressure, it'll pump coolant out of the system without
any coolant heating at all.  Have you observed this is
an air-tight system?

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 06:31:53 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 03:31:53 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- "M. Claywell"  wrote:

> there is a much larger percent difference in the
> temp difference for the coolant to air than
> comapared to the jacket to coolant. See what I am
> saying?

What you're forgetting about is the much much higher
rate of heat transfer between metal and coolant over
that between coolant and air.  I could probably dig
deep and get some exact figures, but ultimately
there's a point of diminshing returns, and a
break-even point.  It's not quite the easy equation
you state it is above, I don't think.

> Convective heat transfer is going be the limiting
> factor for heat transfer from the coolant to the
> air, or the cyl. head, etc to the coolant. Did you
> mean convection instead of conduction??

Yes, thanks for putting that out there for me.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 06:43:42 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 03:43:42 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- Grant Beaty  wrote:

> A quick search revealed the expansion of seawater to
> be 0.00021 % / C. So if the coolant went from 30 -
> 100C, it would gain 1.4% volume,

Er, check your math.  It would gain a hundredth of
that.

> or about a liter in my case (although I don't use
> salt water for coolant ;)

More like 10cc.

If you are using up a liter of coolant out of an
overflow tank, something very strange is going on.

I'd also point out that if your coolant never exceeds
its boiling point at a given pressure and with the
flow volume being X, then changing system pressure
isn't going to make a difference in localized boiling.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 07:01:02 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 04:01:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- Grant Beaty  wrote:

> Your well-maintaned cooling sys has almost zero air
> correct?

Not necessarily.  Some rely on it.  Not many these
days, but still, it's not a given either way.

No offense, guys, but could we maybe trim away some of
the stuff that's been reposted 12 times already when
quoting material?

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From mrbeau0 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 07:25:54 2002
From: mrbeau0 at yahoo.com (mrbeau0)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 04:25:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

Air doesn't conduct heat very well, so why would it be part of a "good"
system?

One point that I think everyone is missing is during heat soak.  Shut your
car off after a hard run, and likely the pressure in the system will exceed
that of the rad cap (on systems with an overflow tank) and add fluid to the
resovoir (hence the "hot" and "cold" markings).  Old setups without an
overflow will do this "once" until the level equalizes with the volume of
the hot system.

My two bits...

Matt.

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Adam Wade
Sent: December 25, 2002 1:58 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


--- Grant Beaty  wrote:

> Your well-maintaned cooling sys has almost zero air
> correct?

Not necessarily.  Some rely on it.  Not many these
days, but still, it's not a given either way.

No offense, guys, but could we maybe trim away some of
the stuff that's been reposted 12 times already when
quoting material?

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From o_zimmer at soltec.net  Wed Dec 25 07:46:28 2002
From: o_zimmer at soltec.net (Oolan Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 04:46:28 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

> > Your well-maintaned cooling sys has almost zero air
> > correct?
>
> Not necessarily.  Some rely on it.  Not many these
> days, but still, it's not a given either way.

And some rely having no air in the pressurized system.

I've seen two different styles of coolant system on passenger cars.  The
first has a pressurized surge tank with an air gap on the top;  the surge
tank is designed to be at the highest point in the system so air collects
there.  The surge tank has a pressure cap on it that leaks to atmosphere if
the pressure is exceeded.  There are a number of permutations of this, and
this is by far the most common system I've seen in econoboxes.

The other has a pressure cap that is designed to let go at just above the
operating pressure of the system.  The pressurized part of the system is not
supposed to have any air in it and technicians have to follow a long bleed
procedure when changing coolant.  The pressure cap does not vent to
atmosphere;  it vents to a sealed surge tank.  When the user adds coolant to
the system, they add it to the surge tank;  they do not remove the pressure
cap.  The pressure cap is not necessarily located at the top of the system,
either.

I'm sure there are other styles and someone can correct any mistakes I've
made.

I agree with a previous poster that the state of the cooling system at WOT
and the state of the cooling system at idle/cruise can be very different.
Because the cooling system has to be smaller than the cooling requirements
of the engine, as the driver stays at WOT temperature and pressure rise.
Then, when they get off WOT the engine is producing less heat and the
cooling system brings temperature/pressure down.  So, even though the
radiator is undersized for the engine, it still supports a duty cycle of WOT
and decel/cruise.  On the street, almost all the time is spent off full
throttle.  On almost every race track, there is a mix of accel and decel.
On the banked ovals where it's all WOT and limited by aerodynamics, it's a
matter of horses for courses.

Oolan Zimmer
o_zimmer at soltec.net


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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 08:00:18 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 05:00:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- mrbeau0  wrote:

> Air doesn't conduct heat very well, so why would it
> be part of a "good" system?

What is a "good" system?  Where do you suppose air is
in the system?

> One point that I think everyone is missing is during
> heat soak.  Shut your car off after a hard run, and
> likely the pressure in the system will exceed
> that of the rad cap (on systems with an overflow
> tank) and add fluid to the resovoir (hence the "hot"
> and "cold" markings).

Which will then return to the system after cooling
occurs.  Incidentally, the pressure should only go up
substantially if the coolant boils...


=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From hydra at iprimus.com.au  Wed Dec 25 10:03:44 2002
From: hydra at iprimus.com.au (Chris "HyDrA" Rosenhain)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 07:03:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Fabricating quad throttle body
Message-ID: 

Merry Christmas everyone!

Who should I turn to about this? It'd be for a Toyota 2S-E engine, FWD.

Any information about doing this would be greatly appreciated :)

Thanks.



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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 15:33:06 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 12:33:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

It's pretty much the same isn't it? I put the cap across the opposite sides of
the switch. The (-) side of the cap on the ground side of the switch, so it is
to ground, and the (+) side of the cap connected between the switch and the ECU
input.

I'll do some more experimentation and try to find out the "pull up" resistance.
Thanks for you help.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?


> This is a different circuit to the one I told 'Mos',
> try the one I wrote ?
>
> rgds
>
> Mike
>
>
> At 02:31 PM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >In any case, it didn't work. This is what I did:
> >
> >GND--------------SWITCH------------------INPUT
> >                        |                          |
> >                        ----(-10uf+)-----
> >
> >Made no difference. ECU still saw the switch as instant ON/OFF. I tried a
> 3uf,
> >and a 22uf, no change.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Mike" 
> >To: 
> >Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:46 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
> >
> >
> >> At 12:35 AM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >> >Most of what you said is greek to me. Hehe. I still understand how to
> wire it
> >> >and what to buy, but the theory is past me. Didn't take advanced
> electronics.
> >>
> >> No worries (as we say in Australia), life is an experiment and so
> >> is electronics and chemistry and ultimately its the same stuff ;-)
> >>
> >> >Do I have any danger of hurting anything just giving this a try?
> >>
> >> On the basis of what you've told me, I'd say no - but if a hawaian
> >> atoll gets vaporised in the next few days, I may backtrack on legal
> >> issues of liability,
> >>
> >> have a nice xmas, we had 34.8 deg C today, 36 due tomorrow 
> >>
> >> rgds
> >>
> >> mike
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Wed Dec 25 15:46:30 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 12:46:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
Message-ID: 

Sorry, my interpretation of someone elses ascii art - - Realise
the line was now a bit offset, yeah you'll have to go for higher
cap values, seems like the ECU internal pullup is fairly low ohms,
fair enough to ensure 'wetting current' for switch contacts,
or god forbid they pump a dumb opto in a single voltage system
with common ground - geesh  ! (Sorry I digress)

rgds

Mike


At 07:31 AM 25/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>It's pretty much the same isn't it? I put the cap across the opposite
sides of
>the switch. The (-) side of the cap on the ground side of the switch, so
it is
>to ground, and the (+) side of the cap connected between the switch and
the ECU
>input.
>
>I'll do some more experimentation and try to find out the "pull up"
resistance.
>Thanks for you help.
>
>----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
>To: 
>Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 11:00 AM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
>
>
>> This is a different circuit to the one I told 'Mos',
>> try the one I wrote ?
>>
>> rgds
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> At 02:31 PM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>> >In any case, it didn't work. This is what I did:
>> >
>> >GND--------------SWITCH------------------INPUT
>> >                        |                          |
>> >                        ----(-10uf+)-----
>> >
>> >Made no difference. ECU still saw the switch as instant ON/OFF. I tried a
>> 3uf,
>> >and a 22uf, no change.
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Mike" 
>> >To: 
>> >Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:46 PM
>> >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay?
>> >
>> >
>> >> At 12:35 AM 24/12/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>> >> >Most of what you said is greek to me. Hehe. I still understand how to
>> wire it
>> >> >and what to buy, but the theory is past me. Didn't take advanced
>> electronics.
>> >>
>> >> No worries (as we say in Australia), life is an experiment and so
>> >> is electronics and chemistry and ultimately its the same stuff ;-)
>> >>
>> >> >Do I have any danger of hurting anything just giving this a try?
>> >>
>> >> On the basis of what you've told me, I'd say no - but if a hawaian
>> >> atoll gets vaporised in the next few days, I may backtrack on legal
>> >> issues of liability,
>> >>
>> >> have a nice xmas, we had 34.8 deg C today, 36 due tomorrow 
>> >>
>> >> rgds
>> >>
>> >> mike
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Diy_efi mailing list
>> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 16:02:21 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 13:02:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

BTW, I use the Evans NPG+ coolant, with 0psi system pressure (radiator cap has
been modified). I have zero problems with my cooling system.

> I've seen that stuff before, sounds too good to be true... What I'm
> wondering is,



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From phil at injec.com  Wed Dec 25 17:32:13 2002
From: phil at injec.com (Phil Lamovie)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 14:32:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Pressure Valves and boiling
Message-ID: 


Lance wrote,

> While I know that the pressure at the cap isn't the same
> system wide, it does set pressure at a known point in the system.
> Unless I am completely misunderstanding the physics of the
> situation.

Hands up who can describe the difference between a pressure
regulator and a pressure relief valve.

As a pressure relief valve it doesn't "set the pressure" anywhere.
The system temp and the water pump and rpm of the engine and
the degree of radiator restriction and one other factor cause the
pressure
to rise

> I agree that a pre pressurized system will minimize nucleate boiling
sooner

No it won't. And you don't want it too. Nucleate boiling is not
boiling in a
normal sense. It has much more usable characteristics than free
boiling
which gives rise to the big bubbles and cracked heads.

this has some easy to follow graphs

 http://www.hlrs.de/organization/aw/services/cfd/Teach/UserConferences/FluxExpertWS/ITW/ITW_Inhalt.html

don't forget to paste the tail if it wraps

HTH

phil


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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Wed Dec 25 22:19:13 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:19:13 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

> Er, check your math.  It would gain a hundredth of
> that.

Well, whatever the case is (that was salt water anyways), it expands enough
to push out coolant into the overflow. Hence the "hot" and "cold" markings.
I am only familar with Supras and DSMs, but given that both those engines
can support power levels about 3x their stock value, I'd say it works.

I remember reading about people measuring the diff. between hot 7 cold on
their overflow to determine if the HG was starting to go.

I understand if the pressure were to lower, the cap obviously cannot
regulate it, its just a relief valve. But if your cooling system is doing
its job (no overheating and/or boiling), pressure should be more or less the
same shouldn't it?

> I'd also point out that if your coolant never exceeds
> its boiling point at a given pressure and with the
> flow volume being X, then changing system pressure
> isn't going to make a difference in localized boiling.

Wouldn't it always exceed boiling temp in the localized hot spots of the
block? Obviously the total system temp shouldn't....

Grant

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Wade" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls


> --- Grant Beaty  wrote:
>
> > A quick search revealed the expansion of seawater to
> > be 0.00021 % / C. So if the coolant went from 30 -
> > 100C, it would gain 1.4% volume,
>
> Er, check your math.  It would gain a hundredth of
> that.
>
> > or about a liter in my case (although I don't use
> > salt water for coolant ;)
>
> More like 10cc.
>
> If you are using up a liter of coolant out of an
> overflow tank, something very strange is going on.
>
> I'd also point out that if your coolant never exceeds
> its boiling point at a given pressure and with the
> flow volume being X, then changing system pressure
> isn't going to make a difference in localized boiling.
>
> =====
> | Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> |   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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>



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From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 26 00:55:49 2002
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 21:55:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Timing and dyno pulls
Message-ID: 

--- Grant Beaty  wrote:

> I understand if the pressure were to lower, the cap
> obviously cannot regulate it, its just a relief
> valve. But if your cooling system is doing its job
> (no overheating and/or boiling), pressure should be
> more or less the same shouldn't it?

The cap basically limits the maximum pressure the
system can see.  Presumably, it is set to be right
around the ideal spot for the heat generation expected
in that vehicle.  I will make up a term here and call
it "heat load", which would be the total caloric
content of the coolant.  The manufacturer presumes
that the heat load of the coolant will very, very
rarely exceed a certain value, and designs the
pressure relief valve (cap blowloff) with that in
mind.  Obviously, it may well be possible to cause the
system to exceed that heat load under certain
operating conditions, and cause more than a very small
amount of coolant to be removed from the system
through the valve.  At that point, it's acting as more
of a protection system for the hoses than anything
else, I would think.

If you have a vehicle, say an econobox, and someone
decides to prep it for superstock racing, then I can
see where there might be benefit to a higher cap
blowoff pressure, since it would help control
localized boiling of coolant in the cylinder head. 
Moving the coolant past the hot spot more quickly
would also make a difference (and most likely a much
bigger one), and I would focus my attentions on that,
rather than the cap alone (which I would consider a
"band aid" if you were not getting sufficient
performance from the design of the stock system).

Conversely, you could certainly design a cooling
system that moved coolant sufficiently to prevent
boiling except perhaps "micro-boiling" on a surface
layer right in contact with the head (someone correct
me if I'm wrong on the physics, but it seems to me
that heating in a moving fluid should work roughly the
same way drag works with moving air...  A boundary
layer, and then exponentially increasing motion (or
cooling, in this case) as you move away from the
boundary), and has dufficient heat-shedding capacity
that the heat load could not be made to exceed the
design parameter under ANY circumstance, including
total destruction of the motor from metal fatigue from
excessive combustion chamber temperatures.  Excessive
design?  Perhaps, but within the realm of possibility.

>> I'd also point out that if your coolant never
>> exceeds its boiling point at a given pressure and
>> with the flow volume being X, then changing system
>> pressure isn't going to make a difference in
>> localized boiling.

> Wouldn't it always exceed boiling temp in the
> localized hot spots of the block? Obviously the
> total system temp shouldn't....

I think perhaps I was being overgeneral.  When I think
of boiling, I think of a significant vapor area that
prevents heat transfer as an insulator (compared to
the conductivity of coolant), which causes a
significant rise in system pressure from expansion. 
Obviously, there's an exponential curve in there for
boiling and system pressure, based on how much heat
can be moved away from the hot spot at what rate. 
It's the rate that becomes important, and the only two
real variables are flow and conductivity of the
coolant, as far as I can see.

And now that we are completely and thoroughly
off-topic, I can't even THINK of anything topical to
add as a tie-in at this point, but Merry Christmas to
everyone anyway.  ;)

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

__________________________________________________
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From SBrough2 at aol.com  Thu Dec 26 11:00:31 2002
From: SBrough2 at aol.com (SBrough2 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 08:00:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] 8:71 Blown Olds 455 using 749 & $58 code
Message-ID: 

This is a project that we're currently working on.

455 Olds with a mild cam and dished pistons
8:71 Roots style blower with a pair of BBK Throttle bodies on top
30# injectors on a plate between the TBs and the blower (kinda like top hat 
injection)

A picture can be seen a Thirdgen.org board under DIY Prom section "749 Blown 
455"
You can also read a little history there a s well.

We've got it running pretty darned good. We have some cold start issues but 
those shoult be pretty easy to take care of with some enrichment. We have a 
fairly stable idle even in closed loop. Throttle response has some tip in lag 
and I have it a little better with TPS enrichment but I've not concentrated 
on that yet. The current concern is related to observations made while trying 
to get a decent VE table set up in the 30 to 40 KPA area. This is "in 
neutral" free revving the engine up through the RPM table. At about 2200RPM 
and 35KPA the headers start to glow red. I've had timing all the way from 
about 25 Deg total to about 40Deg total and get the same results. I forced it 
out of Closed loop and added fuel up to about 800MV O2, and got the same 
results. Anybody ever have this before? What would make the headers got so 
hot?

Thanks
Steve

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From andy.beck at tesco.net  Thu Dec 26 21:38:49 2002
From: andy.beck at tesco.net (Andy Beck)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 18:38:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-V advice
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C2AD27.128AA0C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi=20

I know you guys have had Ford's new FI system for a while, but it's =
quite new to us in the UK.

I have it fitted to a 4-pot Ford 1300 (yup 1.3 litres) micro city car.

I need a little advice:

1) will a normal OBD II code reader diagnose all PMS faults?  - =
recommendations for a PC-based diagnostic, preferably ordered over the =
web, please.

2) any comments on the thing stalling, but only  after declutching =
following at least 5s of overrun (throttle off).  Yes, it's a stickshift =
and clutch job.  It runs OK, and starts & idles fine.  I've not looked =
at fault codes yet (see above) and a warning light is not fitted.

Thanks

Andy

------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C2AD27.128AA0C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Hi 


 


I know you guys have had Ford's new FI =
system for a=20
while, but it's quite new to us in the UK.


 


I have it fitted to a 4-pot Ford =
1300 (yup 1.3=20
litres) micro city car.


 


I need a little advice:


 


1) will a normal OBD II code reader =
diagnose all=20
PMS faults?  - recommendations for=20
a PC-based diagnostic, preferably ordered over the web, =
please.


 


2) any comments on the thing =
stalling, but=20
only  after declutching following at =
least 5s of=20
overrun (throttle off).  Yes, it's a stickshift and clutch =
job.  It=20
runs OK, and starts & idles fine.  I've not looked at fault =
codes yet=20
(see above) and a warning light is not fitted.


 


Thanks


 


Andy


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From aaron.weigand at psab.af.mil  Thu Dec 26 21:44:59 2002
From: aaron.weigand at psab.af.mil (Weigand Aaron M SGT 434-8861)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 18:44:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-V advice
Message-ID: 

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2AD29.1E1959FC
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

I thought the EECV had the OBD?

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Beck [mailto:andy.beck at tesco.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 9:38 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-V advice


Hi 
 
I know you guys have had Ford's new FI system for a while, but it's quite
new to us in the UK.
 
I have it fitted to a 4-pot Ford 1300 (yup 1.3 litres) micro city car.
 
I need a little advice:
 
1) will a normal OBD II code reader diagnose all PMS faults?  -
recommendations for a PC-based diagnostic, preferably ordered over the web,
please.
 
2) any comments on the thing stalling, but only  after declutching following
at least 5s of overrun (throttle off).  Yes, it's a stickshift and clutch
job.  It runs OK, and starts & idles fine.  I've not looked at fault codes
yet (see above) and a warning light is not fitted.
 
Thanks
 
Andy


------_=_NextPart_001_01C2AD29.1E1959FC
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"











I 
thought the EECV had the OBD?



  
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Beck 
  [mailto:andy.beck at tesco.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 9:38 
  PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-V 
  advice


  
Hi 

  
 

  
I know you guys have had Ford's new FI system for 
  a while, but it's quite new to us in the UK.

  
 

  
I have it fitted to a 4-pot Ford 1300 (yup 
  1.3 litres) micro city car.

  
 

  
I need a little advice:

  
 

  
1) will a normal OBD II code reader diagnose all 
  PMS faults?  - recommendations 
  for a PC-based diagnostic, preferably ordered over the web, 
  please.

  
 

  
2) any comments on the thing stalling, but 
  only  after declutching following at least 5s of 
  overrun (throttle off).  Yes, it's a stickshift and clutch job.  It 
  runs OK, and starts & idles fine.  I've not looked at fault codes yet 
  (see above) and a warning light is not fitted.

  
 

  
Thanks

  
 

  
Andy


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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 27 07:04:34 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 04:04:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay? (Thanks Mike)
Message-ID: 

It worked! Thanks for your help Mike, it was just like you said. I went all the
way to a 2200uF cap, and got 8 seconds of delay. Dropped it to 100uF, and I had
basically the time delay I was looking for.


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From andy.beck at tesco.net  Fri Dec 27 11:00:54 2002
From: andy.beck at tesco.net (Andy Beck)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:00:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-V advice
Message-ID: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01C2AD96.DAE2EE00
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I believe it has. Certainly mine has the connector.

European OBD is somewhat behind US - for example we don't have to use it =
on city buses 'til 2006,  so I'm not sure what I can do with OBD - does =
it only give emission related info, or can it do all the things you'd =
find on an "old fashioned" diagnostic? =20

Our tools aftermarket has just about caught up with EEC IV, but there's =
not a thing for EEC-V. =20

Thanks for your interest.  I was worried that diagnostics might be a bit =
off-topic in this group.

Andy


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Weigand Aaron M SGT 434-8861=20
  To: 'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'=20
  Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 9:53 PM
  Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-V advice


  I thought the EECV had the OBD?

------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01C2AD96.DAE2EE00
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









I believe it =
has. Certainly mine has the=20
connector.


 


European OBD is somewhat behind US - =
for example we=20
don't have to use it on city buses 'til 2006,  so I'm not sure what I =
can do=20
with OBD - does it only give emission related info, or can it do =
all the=20
things you'd find on an "old fashioned" diagnostic?  


 


Our tools aftermarket has just about =
caught up with=20
EEC IV, but there's not a thing for EEC-V.  


 


Thanks for your interest.  I was =
worried that=20
diagnostics might be a bit off-topic in this group.


 


Andy


 


 



  
----- Original Message ----- 

  From:=20
  Weigand Aaron M SGT 434-8861 =

  
To: 'diy_efi at diy-efi.org' 

  
Sent: Thursday, December 26, =
2002 9:53=20
  PM

  
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-V =
advice

  


  
I=20
  thought the EECV had the =
OBD?


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From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Fri Dec 27 16:47:11 2002
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:47:11 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Graham Anal Optical Confusion
Message-ID: 

Automotive Engines by Kuns-Plumridge - copyright 1945 by American Technical
Society - reprinted 1948.  Just another antique book - doesn't matter since it
was pre-computer and formal dweebdom. You can see how dumb Graham, Allison,
Rolls Royce, Pratt-Whitney, Curtis Wright, Corvair, Buick, Oldsmobile and all
the rest were about having the fuel introduced ahead of the supercharger.
Dumasses probably right? Page 395 of useless text.

"Graham Supercharger

The Graham supercharger, fig 19, is of centrifugal type which supplies power
to the feeding of the fuel mixture into the engine cylinders.  Instead of
having the engine dependent upon its natural pumping or sucking action to draw
the mixture through the carburetor and into the combustion chambers, the
supercharger forces the mixture into them under pressure.  The suction of the
engine is replaced by pressures ranging from one to several pounds.  Under
full throttle, the manifold pressures are positive at all engine speeds.
Since with a non-supercharged engine a negative pressure (vacuum) ranging from
one to several pounds is required to draw the mixture into the cylinders, the
effect of the supercharger is actually much greater than any gauge pressure
reading would indicate.  Several pounds of vacuum is replace by several pounds
of pressure, approximate twice the amount, in fact.

The supercharger is of the centrifugal or "blower" type and is mounted between
the carburetor and intake manifold of the engine.  It consist primarily of a
casing within which rotor, similar in form to that of a vacuum sweeper,
revolves at speeds of up to approximately 30,000 rpm.  The centrifugal action
of the rotor draws mixture of fuel and air from the carburetor into center of
casing and expels it under pressure at the rim or edge, forcing it through
intake manifold to combustion chambers of the engine.

The carburetor is mounted directly upon the supercharger rotor cover and is of
the down-ddraft type.  After passing through the supercharger, the fuel
mixture is carried over the top to the engine through a tube connected to the
intake manifold, which is similar in type to that used on Graham standard
engines.  Thence, it is forced under pressure into the combustion chambers.

The lower part of the unit consists of a gear cased enclosing worm gearing
expecially developed for driving centrifugal superchargers. The worm wheel is
driven from the accessory shaft which has a ratio of .2 to 1 with the
crankshaft.  The worm gearing itself has a ratio of 4.8 to 1.  Thus the rotor
revolves 5.75 times engine speed, or 23,000 revolutions per minute at the
horsepower peak speed of 4000 revolutions per minute.  The rotor is 7.5 inches
in diameter, and with its shaft, is accurately balanced and tested to run
smoothly.

Simplicity of Graham Supercharger.  Both the rotor and the worm wheel shafts
are mounted on plain bearings.  Complicated bearing mountings and adjustments
have bee completely eliminated.  The unit has been so designed as to make it
just  as much a part of the engine as the lubrication or cooling systems.  No
adjustment of either the bearings or the worm gearing is required.

Full Pressure Lubrication.  All the bearings and the worm gearing of the
supercharger are full-pressure lubricated by the same oil used to lubricate
the engine.  A reserve supply of oil is automatically retained within the worm
gears and bearings during the starting and warming-up period. The cover which
forms the top half of the rotor casing is water-jacketed.  No exhaust heat is
required to warm the mixture.  There are no hot spots on the intake manifold.
The cooling water controls the mixture temperature at desirable levels under
partial and full-throttle operating conditions.

Uses Leaner Mixture.  By placing the supercharger between the down-draft
carburetor and intake manifold, the rotor scrubs and thoroughly mixes the fuel
and air after it is taken in a relatively raw condition from the carburetor.
Obviously, the high speed rotor is a most effective means of putting the
mixture in a most explosive condition before it reaches the cylinders.  The
result is that since the supercharger begins to operate the instant the engine
begins to be rotated by the starter, the mixture is in better condition for
quick starting in cold weather.  No slugs of fuel can pass the rapidly
whirling rotor.  It is a most effective mixing device.

A more important result from the standpoint of operating economy, is that
since the mixture is continuously churned by the rotor at all engine speeds,
it is never necessary for the engine to require more that the most efficient
and power-giving amount of fuel.  A rich mixture is never needed.  The
supercharger, by its thorough vaporization of the fuel, makes it possible for
the engine to operate on a leaner mixture than ordinarily.  Even with
exceptionally lean mixtures the supercharger so completely prepares it for the
engine that backfiring ( which usually results from excessively lean mixtures
) is almost and impossibility.  The supercharger consumes less than two
horsepower.  By consuming this small amount, it in turn enables the power of
the engine to be tremendously increased.  This small consumption of power is
due to the fact that the supercharger, by forcing mixture into the cylinders,
offsets the necessity for the engine to pump or suck it into them.

All automobile engines are relatively inefficient in the operation of pumping
the mixture into the cylinders.  This is due to the large clearance volume (
in this case the combustion chamber ) and other technical reasons.  The fact
that the supercharger is efficient as a means of offsetting this pumping loss,
is, that although it requires from 5 to 6 horsepower to drive the supercharger
at 3,000 revolutions per minute engine speed when disconnected, the amount
required when it is supplying it with mixture is 1.8 horsepower at the same
engine speed.  Indicative also of the gain in efficiency of the the engine
when equipped with the supercharger, is the fact that the thermal efficiency
is about 21 per cent from 2,000 to 3,00 revolutions per minute engine speed,
decreasing above and below this range;  the efficiency of the supercharged
engine remains above 19.5 per cent until a speed of 4,000 revolutions per
minute is attained.  At this speed the thermal efficacy of the
non-supercharged engine has dropped to 16 per cent.

Acceleration.  While the supercharged engine does develop much more power,
this alone would not necessarily make the engine accelerate faster at from 50
to 60 miles per hour than at 25 to 30 miles per hour.  Herein lies one of the
most unusual facts relating to the action of the supercharger.  The factor in
an engine which gives the car greater acceleration is the torque or twisting
force on the crank shaft.  The greater this is, the faster the acceleration.
Also, if it is greater at one speed than another, the acceleration in turn
will also be faster.  This is exactly why the supercharged engine gives the
car such fast pick-up at twice the car speed at which it is ordinarily the
greatest.

The supercharged engine delivers not only more torque at car speeds around 25
miles per hour thus making it have a faster get away, but it also delivers its
maximum torque at twice the speed of the ordinary engine.  Instead of
delivering its greatest torque at 1200 revolutions per minute, as is usually
the case, it delivers it at 2400 revolutions per minute and, for this reason,
the supercharged engine can pull harder and faster than the non-supercharged
engine which begins to level off and gradually increase its speed.  The
supercharged engine seems to have no top speed when the throttle is pushed to
the floor at from 50 to 60 or even more miles per hour."

Like ah said - a bunch of pre-historic myths.


Habaneros - Not Just for breakfast anymore!

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From brian.j.geddes at intel.com  Fri Dec 27 18:38:30 2002
From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:38:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay? (Thanks Mike)
Message-ID: 

Caps - the electronics equivalent of duct tape.  :)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derek [mailto:derek_obanion at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 11:03 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Time delay relay? (Thanks Mike)
>=20
>=20
> It worked! Thanks for your help Mike, it was just like you=20
> said. I went all the
> way to a 2200uF cap, and got 8 seconds of delay. Dropped it=20
> to 100uF, and I had
> basically the time delay I was looking for.
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>=20

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From bob at bobthecomputerguy.com  Fri Dec 27 18:44:31 2002
From: bob at bobthecomputerguy.com (Robert Harris)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:44:31 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

Its been brought up several times about using a jet of highly compressed gas
to spin up the turbo by venting it into the inlet side of the compressor.

Someone is planning to use a slightly richer than stoic blend of nitrous oxide
and propane.  Someone has talked about a fire mans bottle of air. 

Personally, I think I like Argon.  Same price about as CO2 at a welders shop.
Same "where the fire hazard question" same - but argon doesn't burn and puts
fires out logic.  The thousand yard stare factor at the duh's is awful high
also.

Part of the battle is that the fire is generally too hot.  Too much specific
energy for the sensible energy available.  Most cases, if the flame could be
cooled without adding fuel by adding mass, the power would go up.  H20
injections works somewhere around this.

Argon is monatomic noble playboy gas.  What happens to argon in combustion?

Glassman - Combustion Third Edition page 30

"Many experimental systems in which nitrogen may undergo some reactions employ
artificial air systems, replacing nitrogen with argon on a mole-for-mole
basis.  In this case the argon system creates much higher system temperatures
because it absorbs much less of the heat of the reaction owing to its lower
specific heat as a monatomic gas.  The reverse in true, of course, when the
nitrogen is replaced with a triatomic molecule such as carbon dioxide"

Soooh.  Adding argon will not drag down the flame temperature near as much as
nitrogen.  Adding 10% argon would not slow the flame down and lower its
temperature near as much as going 10% leaner, and we would be getting 10
percent more gas.  Interesting.

Glassman - Combustion Third Edition pages 548 and 549 Tables 1 and 2

In the H2-O2 Dissociation/Recombination Tables - note that argon replaces M at
a rate at least an order of magnitude faster.

In the hyperoxide tables H02, it again replaces M and the reaction can be
several orders of magnitude faster.

In the peroxide table H2O2 argon replaces M and the reaction is at least an
order of magnitude faster.

Same for the CO, CO2 and HCO reactions.

Soooh.  Now we know that argon gets very active in the basic combustion
reactions without forming a long term product.  Now we know that it is acting
as a "fuel".

For the unwashed, M is "any particle" that is used as a "catalyst".

But then, who would want to spin up a turbocharger with an inert gas in the
intake anyway right?  Probably would have no effect on the corky bell lag
anyway.
Habaneros - Not Just for breakfast anymore!

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Fri Dec 27 19:37:05 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:37:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

If you replace the oxygen with argon or anything else then don't you need to
pull the fuel out and have fewer btus?? Less heat makes more power. Lets replace
all the oxygen then. I will admit I have no clue on the chemistry but it seems a
little unbelievable to use a gas that is used in welding to exclude oxygen as a
speed secret.. If you want to spool the turbo take out 10 to 20 degrees of
timing and add 5 to 10% fuel, its called anti lag..
Dave


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From pedward at apsoft.com  Fri Dec 27 20:30:50 2002
From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:30:50 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

Question: What if you injected Argon gas into the turbo inlet to help spool up?

Seems to me that it would be beneficial since Argon is an inert gas, I wouldn't
think it'd mess up your O2 readings either.  It also doesn't promote further
combustion and could help make the turbo housing last longer for the same reasons
you use it in welding.

Also, would there be any advantage to doing anti-lag on low throttle tip in on
a small motor with big turbo?  Seems to me that would be quicker than letting
the motor make boost.  Perhaps they already do that, I'm not really into turbos
much, but plan on turboing a CBR 600F2 engine for a project car.

I heard the conventional way (at least some rally cars) is to open the TB all the way
and use a stage rev limiter to keep the engine at reasonable RPMS.  Then all you
do is dump the clutch and hold on.  Seems like an interesting premise I could
try with my F2 motor.  BTW, I'm using an '84 Saab 935 automatic turbo; T03 with
.43 AR exhaust housing. After riding my CBR 600F3 I'm gonna be real interested
in how 6000RPM turbo kick in is going to be like on my 49-state F2 motor.  Some
info I've seen puts the F2 motor ahead of the F3 in ways.  Stock they make 100HP
at 10,800RPM, mine should make 150HP there, hopefully with a car/driver weight
of 1100lbs or less.

--Perry

On Fri, Dec 27, 2002 at 02:49:13PM -0500, Dave Dahlgren wrote:
> If you replace the oxygen with argon or anything else then don't you need to
> pull the fuel out and have fewer btus?? Less heat makes more power. Lets replace
> all the oxygen then. I will admit I have no clue on the chemistry but it seems a
> little unbelievable to use a gas that is used in welding to exclude oxygen as a
> speed secret.. If you want to spool the turbo take out 10 to 20 degrees of
> timing and add 5 to 10% fuel, its called anti lag..
> Dave

-- 
Perry Harrington			Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc	
perry at dainst dot com					 http://www.dainst.com/

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either.
                             -- Benjamin Franklin

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From shurvinton at orange.net  Fri Dec 27 21:06:49 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:06:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Graham Anal Optical Confusion
Message-ID: 

Errrm. Dunno what sparked this, but I thought the arguaments regarding draw
through vs blow through and the compromises involved were fairly well
understood on this list. And sure, if the compromises with a suck through
meet your requirements, its great.

But an odd post

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Harris" 
To: ; 
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 4:43 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Graham Anal Optical Confusion


> Automotive Engines by Kuns-Plumridge - copyright 1945 by American
Technical
> Society - reprinted 1948.  Just another antique book - doesn't matter
since it
> was pre-computer and formal dweebdom. You can see how dumb Graham,
Allison,
> Rolls Royce, Pratt-Whitney, Curtis Wright, Corvair, Buick, Oldsmobile and
all
> the rest were about having the fuel introduced ahead of the supercharger.
> Dumasses probably right? Page 395 of useless text.
>
> "Graham Supercharger



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From shurvinton at orange.net  Fri Dec 27 21:08:05 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:08:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

Interesting, but given how well a 20HP nitrous shot works why bother.

The other option, oft discussed, but not often implemented is to squirt a
'teeny' amount of water mist into the exhaust stream pre turbo. Done right
this should spool you up very quickly. A number of interesting engineering
challenges to get around, but the thermodynamics works.

Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Harris" 
To: ; 
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 6:51 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.


> Its been brought up several times about using a jet of highly compressed
gas
> to spin up the turbo by venting it into the inlet side of the compressor.



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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 27 21:49:16 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:49:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

I'm not looking for crankcase evac (pulling vacum in crankcase). I know that
pumps that can do this are expensive and need to use lots of current. Also there
is the concern that on wet sump cars (mine included), you are reducing the very
pressure that pushes oil into the pickup, and are reducing your oil pressure
with every 1" of vacumn you pull.

I'm just looking for a way of sucking gases out of the crankcase, or maybe
blowing fresh air in, to keep all the blow-by exhaust gases out and any moisture
I build up during my shots of methanol injection.

I don't want to use a PCV system, as I'll end up coating the inside of my
sparking clean turbo, intercooler, and intake manifold. I have yet to see a PCV
implementation that didn't cause build up in the motor.

So basically I'm looking for a 12V air pump that uses up little current (<5A
hopefully), and moves a descent amount of air (3CFM or more) at low or no
pressure differential. Low cost is a plus too. All my searches keep leading to
pumps which have way more than I need and cost too much.


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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Fri Dec 27 21:53:54 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:53:54 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

The water would increase the mass, but lower the temp and velocity. Isn't
velocity more important?

If you want to increase the mass of exhaust gases, why not use methanol
injection. Adds heat, more power, and more mass since the stoic ratio is so
low. Derek O'banion posted a graph of his car spooling using methanol, and
his Mitsu T78 spooled almost as well as my T66 .70 p-trim (ordinarly, a T78
lags about 400 rpms more than my T66). Still it seems odd since methanol
lowers EGTs, but I've never heard of a T78 spooling like that.

Grant

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Shurvinton" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.


> Interesting, but given how well a 20HP nitrous shot works why bother.
>
> The other option, oft discussed, but not often implemented is to squirt a
> 'teeny' amount of water mist into the exhaust stream pre turbo. Done right
> this should spool you up very quickly. A number of interesting engineering
> challenges to get around, but the thermodynamics works.
>
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Harris" 
> To: ; 
> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 6:51 PM
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
>
>
> > Its been brought up several times about using a jet of highly compressed
> gas
> > to spin up the turbo by venting it into the inlet side of the
compressor.
>
>
>
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From shurvinton at orange.net  Fri Dec 27 21:59:05 2002
From: shurvinton at orange.net (William Shurvinton)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:59:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

Water expands when vapourised. This does lower temps a little, but the
increased velocity/mass flow rate more than makes up for it.

Better minds than mine have done the sums  and they do stack up.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Beaty" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.


> The water would increase the mass, but lower the temp and velocity. Isn't
> velocity more important?



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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Fri Dec 27 23:06:20 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 20:06:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

Blowing air thru it would be as easy as attaching a restrictor to a line off
the compressor, attaching that to one of the valve covers, then attaching a
hose to the other valve cover and run that to the ground.

Some people seem to think an ordinary PCV system will work fine, you just
need some kind of filter inline that will condence the vapors in a catch can
instead of in the IC, and of course allow air flow (this is what Saffo and
Lance suggested on the mkivtech list). Has anyone here experimented with
such a filter?

Thanks,
Grant Beaty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 2:42 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?


> I'm not looking for crankcase evac (pulling vacum in crankcase). I know
that
> pumps that can do this are expensive and need to use lots of current. Also
there
> is the concern that on wet sump cars (mine included), you are reducing the
very
> pressure that pushes oil into the pickup, and are reducing your oil
pressure
> with every 1" of vacumn you pull.
>
> I'm just looking for a way of sucking gases out of the crankcase, or maybe
> blowing fresh air in, to keep all the blow-by exhaust gases out and any
moisture
> I build up during my shots of methanol injection.
>
> I don't want to use a PCV system, as I'll end up coating the inside of my
> sparking clean turbo, intercooler, and intake manifold. I have yet to see
a PCV
> implementation that didn't cause build up in the motor.
>
> So basically I'm looking for a 12V air pump that uses up little current
(<5A
> hopefully), and moves a descent amount of air (3CFM or more) at low or no
> pressure differential. Low cost is a plus too. All my searches keep
leading to
> pumps which have way more than I need and cost too much.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Fri Dec 27 23:09:10 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 20:09:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

At 4:11 PM 12/27/02, William Shurvinton wrote:
>Water expands when vapourised. This does lower temps a little, but the
>increased velocity/mass flow rate more than makes up for it.
>
>Better minds than mine have done the sums  and they do stack up.

Injecting water into the exhaust upstream of the turbine has the equivalent
effect of a temporarily smaller A/R ratio turbine housing. It will
definitely speed up spooling, at the cost of some additional backpressure
on the motor. That this is true is WELL proven (in the real world, not just
in calculations) in a number of tractor pulling diesels !! (Which have been
known to use _FAR_ larger, slower spooling  turbos than what are found on
(most) cars !!)

Ideally, one wants to mooodulate (reduce) the water flow as the turbine
speed picks up, and shut the water off completely once the turbine is
operating in the range where the nozzle is the ideal size. At that point,
the H2O in the exhaust would be detrimental to performance.

Greg
.
>----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Beaty" 
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 9:47 PM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
>
>
>> The water would increase the mass, but lower the temp and velocity. Isn't
>> velocity more important?



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From md4etal at netzero.net  Sat Dec 28 00:26:06 2002
From: md4etal at netzero.net (md4etal)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:26:06 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

Use the electric air pump off of a LT1.  It is electrically driven and works
like the crank driven air pumps that drag racers use for crankcase evac.

Mike D.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Beaty" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?


>> > So basically I'm looking for a 12V air pump that uses up little current
> (<5A
> > hopefully), and moves a descent amount of air (3CFM or more) at low or
no
> > pressure differential. Low cost is a plus too. All my searches keep
> leading to
> > pumps which have way more than I need and cost too much.
> >


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From md4etal at netzero.net  Sat Dec 28 00:26:07 2002
From: md4etal at netzero.net (md4etal)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:26:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] 8:71 Blown Olds 455 using 749 & $58 code
Message-ID: 

fuel burning in the header???  Are you using wide lobe centerline angles on
your cam??? ie 112 or 114 degrees?

Mike D
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 5:07 AM
Subject: [Diy_efi] 8:71 Blown Olds 455 using 749 & $58 code


> This is a project that we're currently working on.
>
> 455 Olds with a mild cam and dished pistons
> 8:71 Roots style blower with a pair of BBK Throttle bodies on top
> 30# injectors on a plate between the TBs and the blower (kinda like top
hat
> injection)
>
> A picture can be seen a Thirdgen.org board under DIY Prom section "749
Blown
> 455"
> You can also read a little history there a s well.
>
> We've got it running pretty darned good. We have some cold start issues
but
> those shoult be pretty easy to take care of with some enrichment. We have
a
> fairly stable idle even in closed loop. Throttle response has some tip in
lag
> and I have it a little better with TPS enrichment but I've not
concentrated
> on that yet. The current concern is related to observations made while
trying
> to get a decent VE table set up in the 30 to 40 KPA area. This is "in
> neutral" free revving the engine up through the RPM table. At about
2200RPM
> and 35KPA the headers start to glow red. I've had timing all the way from
> about 25 Deg total to about 40Deg total and get the same results. I forced
it
> out of Closed loop and added fuel up to about 800MV O2, and got the same
> results. Anybody ever have this before? What would make the headers got so
> hot?
>
> Thanks
> Steve
>
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>

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From shannen at grolen.com  Sat Dec 28 00:43:52 2002
From: shannen at grolen.com (Shannen Durphey)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:43:52 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

A crankcase vent can be created by making a venturi in the headers.
Shannen

Derek wrote:
> 
> I'm not looking for crankcase evac (pulling vacum in crankcase). I know that
> pumps that can do this are expensive and need to use lots of current. Also there
> is the concern that on wet sump cars (mine included), you are reducing the very
> pressure that pushes oil into the pickup, and are reducing your oil pressure
> with every 1" of vacumn you pull.
> 
> I'm just looking for a way of sucking gases out of the crankcase, or maybe
> blowing fresh air in, to keep all the blow-by exhaust gases out and any moisture
> I build up during my shots of methanol injection.
> 
> I don't want to use a PCV system, as I'll end up coating the inside of my
> sparking clean turbo, intercooler, and intake manifold. I have yet to see a PCV
> implementation that didn't cause build up in the motor.
> 
> So basically I'm looking for a 12V air pump that uses up little current (<5A
> hopefully), and moves a descent amount of air (3CFM or more) at low or no
> pressure differential. Low cost is a plus too. All my searches keep leading to
> pumps which have way more than I need and cost too much.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

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From rjp at teknology.net  Sat Dec 28 02:02:34 2002
From: rjp at teknology.net (Phil)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 23:02:34 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

Dereck-

<>

What??? With all do respect, whoever gave this explanation of oil
pressure/crankcase ventilation relationship to you should be flogged, as it
is completely backwards. I've successfully built a number of 8200 RPM, 730+
HP, 540 ci. BBC's for drag racing and all of them had Stef's Vacuum Pumps
on them that pulled a regulated 19" of crankcase vacuum. Absolutely none of
them EVER had an oiling problem, all were wet sump and all lived healthy
lives at the strip. You might want to rethink this line of reasoning. =)

<>

See above. ^^^

<>

Again....what??? Blow fresh air in?? Use a Speed-Pro top ring and a Total
Seal second ring and you'll have no problems with excessive blow-by.
(providing the cylinders receive the proper finish) Any engine is going to
collect a small amount of condensation on the internal surfaces of the
cylinder case and cylinder heads..unless of course you never shut the
engine off...... =) Even race prepped engines sweat internally somewhat.
Engine oil has that task of removing the majority of the condensate that is
present and we have the task of changing the oil periodically. One hand
washes the other.

<>

Not if it is plumbed correctly. Been there, done that.

<>

Then you need to take a closer look at the successful PCV systems that were
utilized on the early Callaway TT'd L-98's and the LPE TT'd LS1's. We were
making some serious power with the LPE TT'd LS1 engines and NONE of them
exhibited oil intrusion into the positive pressure side of the compressor.
It can be accomplished with a little forethought and engineering. =)

I apologize if I come across as cynical, because that was not my intent,
but I wanted to present you with this correct information so that you may
be able to better make an informed decision on what path you choose.
Shannon's idea works very well also and racers have been successfully doing
it for years. =)

EFI content: If you choose the header evacuation route, mount the oxygen
sensor pre-evac plumbing.

HTH


-Phil





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From bernadot at zeta.org.au  Sat Dec 28 02:47:26 2002
From: bernadot at zeta.org.au (Bernadette and Don Ricciardiello)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 23:47:26 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] unsubbing instructions
Message-ID: 

Hi,

Can someone help?

Rgds,

Don 

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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 28 03:09:05 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 00:09:05 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

Tried it. 10 amp current draw, and it doesn't even move much air.

> Use the electric air pump off of a LT1.  It is electrically driven and works
> like the crank driven air pumps that drag racers use for crankcase evac.



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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sat Dec 28 03:09:27 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 00:09:27 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

At 01:42 PM 12/27/02 -0800, you wrote:
>I don't want to use a PCV system, as I'll end up coating the inside of my
>sparking clean turbo, intercooler, and intake manifold. I have yet to see
a PCV
>implementation that didn't cause build up in the motor.

I've been using a condensator for years on my VL-3L Turbo and before
that on a 1.6L ford escort. Its basically a jar to condense the vapours
before the higher fractions go into the engine, there's a gel filter
and I collect about 400ml of oil in it each 3 months - seems to work well,
replaced the head some 3 years back - no problems, no buildup and the
condensator had been there for 5 years previously !

rgds

mike


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From MiseryQ at miseryhq.d2g.com  Sat Dec 28 04:58:08 2002
From: MiseryQ at miseryhq.d2g.com (MiseryQ)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 01:58:08 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

Some mid 80's GM cars,,, and some 90's I believe,,, came with electric
vacuum pumps to help brake vacuum...

I lost my list but they were on everything from Skylarks to Caprices...



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From diy-efi at t-n-e.com  Sat Dec 28 16:11:53 2002
From: diy-efi at t-n-e.com (Phil Hunter)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:11:53 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: injecotr flow bench plans needed.
Message-ID: 

[better late than never...]

> 
I am in search of someone with =
> knowledge or plans=20
> on how to build a injector flow bench tester.
[snip]

Please turn off the HTML, my personal policy is to not reply
to posts w/ HTML, so I'm making an exception here.

Searching the archives is a good start, whenever I find myself
looking thru them, I'm always impressed w/ the generally high
"quality" in stark contrast to the general lack thereof now.

One thing I'd highly recommend to everyone is to browse thru
the web site, not so much to read everything there, but to get
an idea of what IS there. Lots and lots of good info.

Bart, if you snoop around, you'll find (almost) exactly what
you are looking for, a relatively simple injector tester w/ some
features you may not have even thought of, such as a strobe light
to view the spray pattern.

Regarding IC's, the LM1949 is designed as an injector driver,
searching for it at http://www.national.com, you'll find info
and an order link that sends you to DigiKey who has them in
stock. As an upgrade to Peak-n-Hold from Saturated drivers
for an ECM, the 1949 is lacking compared to something like the
CS452/453 (http://www.onsemi.com) since it requires external
parts, but for an external driver board or an injector tester
it's big advantage is it's still in production.

rgds,
philh
(digest)

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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Sat Dec 28 22:28:59 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:28:59 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

Where does one get a condensator like that? Do you have one on the valve
cover -> pre-turbo hose as well as the valve cover -> intake manifold hose?

Thanks,
Grant Beaty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?


> At 01:42 PM 12/27/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >I don't want to use a PCV system, as I'll end up coating the inside of my
> >sparking clean turbo, intercooler, and intake manifold. I have yet to see
> a PCV
> >implementation that didn't cause build up in the motor.
>
> I've been using a condensator for years on my VL-3L Turbo and before
> that on a 1.6L ford escort. Its basically a jar to condense the vapours
> before the higher fractions go into the engine, there's a gel filter
> and I collect about 400ml of oil in it each 3 months - seems to work well,
> replaced the head some 3 years back - no problems, no buildup and the
> condensator had been there for 5 years previously !
>
> rgds
>
> mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



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From gbeaty at ufl.edu  Sat Dec 28 22:37:41 2002
From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:37:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

> Injecting water into the exhaust upstream of the turbine has the
equivalent
> effect of a temporarily smaller A/R ratio turbine housing.

Very interesting... Is there any info online somewhere about this? In the
achives? (I've searched, but the problem with the achives is that most
posts' subject matter deviate from their subject quite a bit, much like this
one).

I take it water injection also has the same effect? Or almost anything that
will vaporize?

Thanks,
Grant Beaty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Hermann" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.


> At 4:11 PM 12/27/02, William Shurvinton wrote:
> >Water expands when vapourised. This does lower temps a little, but the
> >increased velocity/mass flow rate more than makes up for it.
> >
> >Better minds than mine have done the sums  and they do stack up.
>
> Injecting water into the exhaust upstream of the turbine has the
equivalent
> effect of a temporarily smaller A/R ratio turbine housing. It will
> definitely speed up spooling, at the cost of some additional backpressure
> on the motor. That this is true is WELL proven (in the real world, not
just
> in calculations) in a number of tractor pulling diesels !! (Which have
been
> known to use _FAR_ larger, slower spooling  turbos than what are found on
> (most) cars !!)
>
> Ideally, one wants to mooodulate (reduce) the water flow as the turbine
> speed picks up, and shut the water off completely once the turbine is
> operating in the range where the nozzle is the ideal size. At that point,
> the H2O in the exhaust would be detrimental to performance.
>
> Greg
> .
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Grant Beaty" 
> >To: 
> >Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 9:47 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
> >
> >
> >> The water would increase the mass, but lower the temp and velocity.
Isn't
> >> velocity more important?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Sun Dec 29 00:48:33 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:48:33 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

Mmmm.. Maybe, but the only time I've ever seen water used on exhaust side i=
s
when we waterwash the turbine side on a big diesel ships turbo.
These things are only spinning at 26k rpm, but one the waterwash is
initiated, they scrub almost 8.5k rpm of the turbine speed in an instant,
and that=B9s on a blade a 1 1/2 foot in diameter.. Really want to do that to =
a
baby turbine running 75k rpm?
--=20
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 29/12/02 11:40 AM Grant Beaty wrote

>> Injecting water into the exhaust upstream of the turbine has the
> equivalent
>> effect of a temporarily smaller A/R ratio turbine housing.


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From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Sun Dec 29 03:00:01 2002
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:00:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

At 1:52 PM 12/29/02, Matt Porritt wrote:
>Mmmm.. Maybe, but the only time I've ever seen water used on exhaust side is
>when we waterwash the turbine side on a big diesel ships turbo.

Shorter life cycle involved :-)

But--tractor pullers do it pretty commonly. And--it WORKS. Spools 'em up
right quick. Probably a LOT less water in relation to mass flow than what
you are talking about. Talking about things on the order of a 430 cid I-6
running 60--65 psi boost, single stage (non-compound) turbo, 6000--6500 rpm
on the motor, no IC, running water injection downstream of the compressor
for charge air cooling.

Lots of irrelevant stuff that ain't SUPPOSED to work, or even be possible
!! But there it is. And the numbers back up what happens.

Greg

>These things are only spinning at 26k rpm, but one the waterwash is
>initiated, they scrub almost 8.5k rpm of the turbine speed in an instant,
>and that's on a blade a 1 1/2 foot in diameter.. Really want to do that to a
>baby turbine running 75k rpm?
>--
>Matt Porritt
>RC Race Cars and Supplies
>ICQ #22776813
>
>
>On 29/12/02 11:40 AM Grant Beaty wrote
>
>>> Injecting water into the exhaust upstream of the turbine has the
>> equivalent
>>> effect of a temporarily smaller A/R ratio turbine housing.
>
>
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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Sun Dec 29 04:35:10 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 01:35:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

The volumes of water used on the blowers we water wash are very small..
We're talking about only a couple of litres a min., though if one of the
nozzles corrodes out and the water isn't atomised or a fine spray anyway,
then its almost like a hi pressure water blaster.

You mention water injection downstream of comp.. No probs with that.. But
they also run water inj in exh housing?

I'd be interested in any more info you may have on using water to reduce exh
housing AR.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 29/12/02 2:57 PM Greg Hermann wrote

> Shorter life cycle involved :-)
> 
> But--tractor pullers do it pretty commonly. And--it WORKS. Spools 'em up
> right quick. Probably a LOT less water in relation to mass flow than what
> you are talking about. Talking about things on the order of a 430 cid I-6
> running 60--65 psi boost, single stage (non-compound) turbo, 6000--6500 rpm
> on the motor, no IC, running water injection downstream of the compressor
> for charge air cooling.
> 
> Lots of irrelevant stuff that ain't SUPPOSED to work, or even be possible
> !! But there it is. And the numbers back up what happens.


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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Sun Dec 29 06:39:02 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 03:39:02 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

These days its just called an oil catch can, here's a link to a few
pics of my engine bay:-

http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/

and the specific link relevant to this discussion:-

http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/Purge_Condensator.jpg

It came out of the USA and should still be available over there, I bought
mine some 14 years ago !

rgds

mike



At 03:32 PM 12/28/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Where does one get a condensator like that? Do you have one on the valve
>cover -> pre-turbo hose as well as the valve cover -> intake manifold hose?
>
>Thanks,
>Grant Beaty
>
>----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 8:14 PM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
>
>
>> At 01:42 PM 12/27/02 -0800, you wrote:
>> >I don't want to use a PCV system, as I'll end up coating the inside of my
>> >sparking clean turbo, intercooler, and intake manifold. I have yet to see
>> a PCV
>> >implementation that didn't cause build up in the motor.
>>
>> I've been using a condensator for years on my VL-3L Turbo and before
>> that on a 1.6L ford escort. Its basically a jar to condense the vapours
>> before the higher fractions go into the engine, there's a gel filter
>> and I collect about 400ml of oil in it each 3 months - seems to work well,
>> replaced the head some 3 years back - no problems, no buildup and the
>> condensator had been there for 5 years previously !
>>
>> rgds
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From gcroft at wideopenwest.com  Sun Dec 29 07:05:41 2002
From: gcroft at wideopenwest.com (Gregory Croft)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:05:41 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Saying hello..
Message-ID: 

Hello everyone, 
Just introducing myself to the list. 
I currently have a 95 Turbo Neon, with a DTA Standalone ECU. 

Thanks! 
Greg Croft




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From derek_obanion at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 29 13:17:55 2002
From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 10:17:55 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

> These days its just called an oil catch can, here's a link to a few
> pics of my engine bay:-
>
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/
>
> and the specific link relevant to this discussion:-
>
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/Purge_Condensator.jpg
>
> It came out of the USA and should still be available over there, I bought
> mine some 14 years ago !

I get almost no hits on "Purge condensator." Any other names that devise would
be known by? I want one.


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From amalventano at sc.rr.com  Sun Dec 29 14:03:23 2002
From: amalventano at sc.rr.com (Allyn)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:03:23 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

Mike,
just what tires are those?
Al

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?


> These days its just called an oil catch can, here's a link to a few
> pics of my engine bay:-
>
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/
>
> and the specific link relevant to this discussion:-
>
>
http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/Purge_Condensator.jpg
>
> It came out of the USA and should still be available over there, I bought
> mine some 14 years ago !
>
> rgds
>
> mike
>
>
>
> At 03:32 PM 12/28/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Where does one get a condensator like that? Do you have one on the valve
> >cover -> pre-turbo hose as well as the valve cover -> intake manifold
hose?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Grant Beaty
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Mike" 
> >To: 
> >Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 8:14 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
> >
> >
> >> At 01:42 PM 12/27/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >> >I don't want to use a PCV system, as I'll end up coating the inside of
my
> >> >sparking clean turbo, intercooler, and intake manifold. I have yet to
see
> >> a PCV
> >> >implementation that didn't cause build up in the motor.
> >>
> >> I've been using a condensator for years on my VL-3L Turbo and before
> >> that on a 1.6L ford escort. Its basically a jar to condense the vapours
> >> before the higher fractions go into the engine, there's a gel filter
> >> and I collect about 400ml of oil in it each 3 months - seems to work
well,
> >> replaced the head some 3 years back - no problems, no buildup and the
> >> condensator had been there for 5 years previously !
> >>
> >> rgds
> >>
> >> mike
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From hugh at sol.co.uk  Sun Dec 29 15:38:01 2002
From: hugh at sol.co.uk (Hugh Keir)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:38:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Water metanol turbo assist -  was Argon turbo assist
Message-ID: 

Not wanting to hijack the original Argon thread.

I use a 50 : 50 water methanol mix in my water injection system.

If you were to add some air and some of the 50 : 50 water methanol in the
exhaust manifold pre - turbo, it might be possible to create even more boost
with the only additional requirement being an air pump and some additional
plumbing and valves from the water injection pump.

Given the comments about how cold methanol burns it might be kinder to the
turbos than traditional rally car anti-lag systems that retard the ignition
and burn extra petrol in the exhaust to create the boost.

Any thoughts?

Would nitrous nozzles help mix the air and water / fuel for a good burn?

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Beaty" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.


> > Injecting water into the exhaust upstream of the turbine has the
> equivalent
> > effect of a temporarily smaller A/R ratio turbine housing.
>
> Very interesting... Is there any info online somewhere about this? In the
> achives? (I've searched, but the problem with the achives is that most
> posts' subject matter deviate from their subject quite a bit, much like
this
> one).
>
> I take it water injection also has the same effect? Or almost anything
that
> will vaporize?
>
> Thanks,
> Grant Beaty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg Hermann" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 3:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
>
>
> > At 4:11 PM 12/27/02, William Shurvinton wrote:
> > >Water expands when vapourised. This does lower temps a little, but the
> > >increased velocity/mass flow rate more than makes up for it.
> > >
> > >Better minds than mine have done the sums  and they do stack up.
> >
> > Injecting water into the exhaust upstream of the turbine has the
> equivalent
> > effect of a temporarily smaller A/R ratio turbine housing. It will
> > definitely speed up spooling, at the cost of some additional
backpressure
> > on the motor. That this is true is WELL proven (in the real world, not
> just
> > in calculations) in a number of tractor pulling diesels !! (Which have
> been
> > known to use _FAR_ larger, slower spooling  turbos than what are found
on
> > (most) cars !!)
> >
> > Ideally, one wants to mooodulate (reduce) the water flow as the turbine
> > speed picks up, and shut the water off completely once the turbine is
> > operating in the range where the nozzle is the ideal size. At that
point,
> > the H2O in the exhaust would be detrimental to performance.
> >
> > Greg
> > .
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Grant Beaty" 
> > >To: 
> > >Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 9:47 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Argon turbo assist.
> > >
> > >
> > >> The water would increase the mass, but lower the temp and velocity.
> Isn't
> > >> velocity more important?
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


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From ECMnut at aol.com  Mon Dec 30 04:15:58 2002
From: ECMnut at aol.com (ECMnut at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 01:15:58 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Saying hello..
Message-ID: 

Hi Greg, and welcome.
would love to hear more about your car.
SOHC or DOHC?
ANy timeslips yet?
Is it DIY or kit?
Cheers,
Mike V

In a message dated 12/29/2002 2:06:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
gcroft at wideopenwest.com writes:
 
>  Hello everyone, 
>  Just introducing myself to the list. 
>  I currently have a 95 Turbo Neon, with a DTA Standalone ECU. 
>  
>  Thanks! 
>  Greg Croft

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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Mon Dec 30 05:23:48 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:23:48 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Water metanol turbo assist -  was Argon turbo assist
Message-ID: 

I've played with Nitrous nozzles a fair bit specifically the NOS brand one.
They rely on pressure for good atomization ie fogger nozzle.
The Nitrous pressure simply blows the fuel into an atomized state.
They work 'ok' for water meth, but once again, the more pressure you put
behind them, the better the result.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 30/12/02 4:38 AM Hugh Keir wrote

> Would nitrous nozzles help mix the air and water / fuel for a good burn?


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From gcroft at wideopenwest.com  Mon Dec 30 05:41:01 2002
From: gcroft at wideopenwest.com (Gregory Croft)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:41:01 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Saying hello..
Message-ID: 

I have a 95 SOHC ACR Sedan.
The only time slip I got was a dismal one due to fat fingering an advance
setting.  Way overfueled as a result. You can see a haze of fuel exiting the
exhaust when I went down the strip.

a 15.2 @ 93. She was really dead on the top end.

The ECM I use is from www.dtafast.co.uk a nice unit.

I will probably use a Megasquirt on my next project which is a 98 Neon with
a Dodge Stratus 2.4 in it.

Thanks!
Greg



----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Saying hello..


> Hi Greg, and welcome.
> would love to hear more about your car.
> SOHC or DOHC?
> ANy timeslips yet?
> Is it DIY or kit?
> Cheers,
> Mike V
>
> In a message dated 12/29/2002 2:06:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> gcroft at wideopenwest.com writes:
>
> >  Hello everyone,
> >  Just introducing myself to the list.
> >  I currently have a 95 Turbo Neon, with a DTA Standalone ECU.
> >
> >  Thanks!
> >  Greg Croft
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>



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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 30 07:17:49 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:17:49 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

At 05:15 AM 12/29/02 -0800, you wrote:
>I get almost no hits on "Purge condensator." Any other names that devise
would
>be known by? I want one.

Try:-

Oil Condensator
Oil separator
Oil catchcan
Oil catch can

With PCV qualifier as well, 

I have some old doco for it somewhere - will have a look in the workshop
storage shed, I'm pretty sure the US military (army) tried em and got
7% better fuel economy,

rgds

mike



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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Mon Dec 30 07:20:57 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:20:57 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
Message-ID: 

There old twin tyres, cant get the wheels anymore though there
are a few s/h ones around, sizes 125/90VR16 and 125/85VR16 but
no-one in the world (I've found) makes new ones - sob sob :(

rgds

mike

At 08:58 AM 12/29/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Mike,
>just what tires are those?
>Al
>
>----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike" 
>To: 
>Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 1:30 AM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
>
>
>> These days its just called an oil catch can, here's a link to a few
>> pics of my engine bay:-
>>
>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/
>>
>> and the specific link relevant to this discussion:-
>>
>>
>http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/Purge_Condensator.jpg
>>
>> It came out of the USA and should still be available over there, I bought
>> mine some 14 years ago !
>>
>> rgds
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>> At 03:32 PM 12/28/02 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Where does one get a condensator like that? Do you have one on the valve
>> >cover -> pre-turbo hose as well as the valve cover -> intake manifold
>hose?
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >Grant Beaty
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Mike" 
>> >To: 
>> >Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 8:14 PM
>> >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Good air pump for crankcase circulation?
>> >
>> >
>> >> At 01:42 PM 12/27/02 -0800, you wrote:
>> >> >I don't want to use a PCV system, as I'll end up coating the inside of
>my
>> >> >sparking clean turbo, intercooler, and intake manifold. I have yet to
>see
>> >> a PCV
>> >> >implementation that didn't cause build up in the motor.
>> >>
>> >> I've been using a condensator for years on my VL-3L Turbo and before
>> >> that on a 1.6L ford escort. Its basically a jar to condense the vapours
>> >> before the higher fractions go into the engine, there's a gel filter
>> >> and I collect about 400ml of oil in it each 3 months - seems to work
>well,
>> >> replaced the head some 3 years back - no problems, no buildup and the
>> >> condensator had been there for 5 years previously !
>> >>
>> >> rgds
>> >>
>> >> mike
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Diy_efi mailing list
>> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

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From abnengineering at cs.com  Mon Dec 30 09:15:29 2002
From: abnengineering at cs.com (abnengineering at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 06:15:29 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Metri-Pack or Weather-Pack connectors, which is better?
Message-ID: 

I'm going to start some wiring projects on my car and am looking at the Delphi Packard Weather-Pack and Metri-Pack...they both use cable, cavity, and connector seals...is there any advantage to either?  The Metri-pack 280 series have a bit more current capacity so that's the way I think I'm going. Any input? I've never used these type of connectors before but I really like the OEM appearance. 

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From jonathan.norman at telia.com  Mon Dec 30 11:52:10 2002
From: jonathan.norman at telia.com (Jonathan Norman)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:52:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] closed-loop at high load?
Message-ID: 

Does anybody know if an old motronic-system in a bmw 325i -87 is running
closed-loop at high load (not WOT) ? Cruising at 120mph for example.
If it is, will it adjust to AFR 14.7:1 even if I have an extra
injectionsystem working ? I am worried about the engine running too lean
with a turbo. When I have boost while not WOT, will the engine run
closed-loop and run lean ?

Happy new year !
/Jonathan Norman


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From BVicknair at bjservices.com  Mon Dec 30 14:44:21 2002
From: BVicknair at bjservices.com (BVicknair at bjservices.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:44:21 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re:exhaust/steam compressor drive
Message-ID: 


H2O2 decomposition to steam is the basis of Walter's turbine pumps and
propulsion. ie ME163 "cold motor".
If alcohol is added then you have a "hot motor" that uses the released
excess O.

Go to beauty supply and ask for "developer 40". This is about 15-20% H2O2.
Inject just upstream of exhaust turbo.
I'm playing with H2O2 fumigation.

Is anyone injecting liquid phase propane to intake manifold?

bv



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From dan_dandrea at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 30 16:29:04 2002
From: dan_dandrea at hotmail.com (Dan D'Andrea)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:29:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Argon turbo assist.
Message-ID: 

>Injecting water into the exhaust upstream of the turbine has the
>equivalent effect of a temporarily smaller A/R ratio turbine
>housing.  It will definitely speed up spooling, at the cost of some
>additional backpressure on the motor.

The idea of using water into the exhaust upstream of the turbine sounds like 
a really good idea for reducing turbo spool up times.  I am definitely going 
to research this more for my current project ( 
http://www.j00tel.net/turbo_ek1 ).

An idea that we had to reduce turbo spool time was this, kinda/sorta a 
pseudo-VNT idea...

Using a split turbine housing, build a throttle body which allows us to 
select either one side of the turbine housing, both sides of the turbine 
housing or a varying degree in between.  This should let us vary our turbine 
A/R and thus control spool up times.  We would control the throttle body 
using our custom ECU and a table, something like RPM vs % throttle body 
open.

The details are yet to be worked out but this is the basic idea.

Is there a more approrpriate place to be discussing turbocharging ideas?  If 
there were a DIY turbo list similar in activity to this list, that would be 
great.

--Dan


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From michalk at awpi.com  Mon Dec 30 17:44:09 2002
From: michalk at awpi.com (Brian Michalk)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:44:09 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Injector connector
Message-ID: 

Does anyone know where I can purchase new connectors for the Bosch
injectors?
It's the one that goes inside the Bosch squarish case.


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From turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 30 18:03:19 2002
From: turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com (Toyota Supra)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:03:19 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Injector connector
Message-ID: 

you should be able to go to a dodge dealer and get them if not, get them 
from a talon/laser/eclipse in a parts yard






From: "Brian Michalk" 
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>To: 
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Injector connector
>Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:33:45 -0600
>
>Does anyone know where I can purchase new connectors for the Bosch
>injectors?
>It's the one that goes inside the Bosch squarish case.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From hugh at sol.co.uk  Mon Dec 30 19:12:17 2002
From: hugh at sol.co.uk (Hugh Keir)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:12:17 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Water metanol turbo assist -  was Argon turbo assist
Message-ID: 

Hi Matt,

Was the application to inject pre - turbo.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Porritt" 
To: "DIY-EFI" 
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Water metanol turbo assist - was Argon turbo assist


> I've played with Nitrous nozzles a fair bit specifically the NOS brand
one.
> They rely on pressure for good atomization ie fogger nozzle.
> The Nitrous pressure simply blows the fuel into an atomized state.
> They work 'ok' for water meth, but once again, the more pressure you put
> behind them, the better the result.
> --
> Matt Porritt
> RC Race Cars and Supplies
> ICQ #22776813
>
>
> On 30/12/02 4:38 AM Hugh Keir wrote
>
> > Would nitrous nozzles help mix the air and water / fuel for a good burn?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
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From erazmus at iinet.net.au  Tue Dec 31 04:39:10 2002
From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 01:39:10 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] This turbo assist stuff, suggestions
Message-ID: 

In reference to all this stuff about assisting the spool up of turbos,
presumably for fast takeoffs and gadget value, what do people think of
this dual approach (a=motor, b=boost):-

a.	The "Motor" part,
	Engineer the compressor plate to make it the rotor of a brushless
	(induction) motor - by placing polyphase windings behind it and
	driven by a 2 - 5 Kw motor driver, which could work as follows:-

	1.	The compresor plate is your classic induction motor rotor
	2.	In 'normal' mode, the motor is off and the compressor
		plate at idle would spin as per normal and accelerate as
		per normal when foot placed on pedal. Eg. I observed my
		little T3 spinning at 300 rpm when engine at idle.
	3.	In 'power' mode, brushless motor keeps the compressor
		running at a higher speed in readiness for planting the
		foot - such as a 10,000 rpm - but not for long as the comp.
		housing will get 'warm' and the windings likewise. In this
		mode induction motor at say 20% of rated and exhaust pumping
		away nicely.
	4.	When pedal to floor (during 3 above), full power to induction
		motor windings! So the comp is boosted as fast a possible
		by the induction motor and exhaust gas.

*and*

b.	The "Boost" part,
	Compressed air is injected tangentially to compressor plate to
	also aid in spinning up with an extra injector to add the correct
	amount of fuel (slightly) rich to match the air injected. Some
	issues are:-

	1.	Compressed air feed via PWM injector to ensure control and
		of course to prevent over-spinning that poor turbine.
	2.	Motor control and Boost control would work best if integrated
		to the same controller with feedback on turbine speed, this
		could also datalog the operation quite effectively.
	3.	If there is enough power from (a) above and the compresor
		air injection is also 'optimum' - I would expect the turbo
		would act much like a one-way valve such that large amounts
		of additional compressed air and fuel could be added without
		the need for nitrous or special fuels.
	4.	Having a tank with compressed air would be helpful which matches
		the 'boost spurt' people are looking for at launch, with a water
		trap and cooling so the compressed air can be cool enough to
		resist the detonation point - ie. It chills as it expands.
	5.	A cheap way to get compressed air is to use one of those
		scuba tanks that hold 5000psi or so (need a regulator) from
		a scuba outlet - costs $5 to refill.

Comments ?

rgds

mike


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From gcroft at wideopenwest.com  Tue Dec 31 07:41:24 2002
From: gcroft at wideopenwest.com (Gregory Croft)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 04:41:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Base Fuel Calculations..
Message-ID: 

Is there a basic fuel caclulation that I can use to figure out how much
pulsewidth my engine will need at certain RPM/Load/MAP points?

A calc that takes all this into consideration??
Displacement
Barro Pressure (Boost/Vac)
RPM
TEMP
Fuel PSI
Injector Size

Thanks!

Greg Croft
-Turbo 95 Neon
DTA Standalone Engine Management




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From KHeintz at t-online.de  Tue Dec 31 09:37:07 2002
From: KHeintz at t-online.de (Kurt Heintz)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 06:37:07 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re:exhaust/steam compressor drive
Message-ID: 

For hot the walter procedure needs you more than methanol.
T-material = H2O2 80%ig C-material = 30% hydrazine-hydrate +
57%Methanol + 13%Water + 0,6g/ltr Kaliumkupercyanid. This mixture is
hypergol (self ignition) therefore was called the Me163B Komet!
 

Kurt

BVicknair at bjservices.com schrieb:
> 
> H2O2 decomposition to steam is the basis of Walter's turbine pumps and
> propulsion. ie ME163 "cold motor".
> If alcohol is added then you have a "hot motor" that uses the released
> excess O.
> 
> Go to beauty supply and ask for "developer 40". This is about 15-20% H2O2.
> Inject just upstream of exhaust turbo.
> I'm playing with H2O2 fumigation.
> 
> Is anyone injecting liquid phase propane to intake manifold?
> 
> bv
> 
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From ohiobenz at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 31 14:33:30 2002
From: ohiobenz at yahoo.com (Ohio Benz)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:33:30 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] AT & MAP
Message-ID: 

Does anyone know of an OEM air temp & boost capable
MAP sensor that has the AMP junior timer type
connection??

Thanks

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Tue Dec 31 15:27:16 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:27:16 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] AT & MAP
Message-ID: 

Bosch makes water and air temp sensors with that connector. I would suspect
their map sensor to be the same as well. I know their mag crank sensor uses a 3
pin male conneror.
Dave
Ohio Benz wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know of an OEM air temp & boost capable
> MAP sensor that has the AMP junior timer type
> connection??
> 
> Thanks


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From ohiobenz at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 31 19:59:20 2002
From: ohiobenz at yahoo.com (Ohio Benz)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:59:20 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] AT & MAP
Message-ID: 

Dave would you know of a make/model I could find
these?
Thanks!

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From ddahlgren at snet.net  Tue Dec 31 20:48:40 2002
From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:48:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] AT & MAP
Message-ID: 

I have some in stock here.. I will see if I can get the numbers off them for the
air and water temp.. I have no clue what they come off of though. The Bosch part
number should be enough in itself. I don't have a Bosch map sensor though.. get
back to you tomorrow on it..
Dave

Ohio Benz wrote:
> 
> Dave would you know of a make/model I could find
> these?
> Thanks!
> 
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From coloradoarmory at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 31 20:57:18 2002
From: coloradoarmory at yahoo.com (ColoradoArmory)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:57:18 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Have a bunch of BIN's from pulls......
Message-ID: 

How do I download these (should I?) to somewhere that
others can access them?

These are copied files from stock GM computers, mostly
747, but some 746 and other 6cyl apps.

New to list, but have been wrangling with a TBI system
on a jeep for a year now, have all the equip (that's
how I copid the bins off the eproms) and am testing
chips and reworking bins for my own apps, but copy the
stock bins when I pull a computer and thought someone
else might want/need a stock bin too.

Anyway, someone LMK if this is even something that
others might want and if so, where should I send these
so others can get them if they want??

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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Tue Dec 31 21:40:24 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:40:24 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Water metanol turbo assist -  was Argon turbo assist
Message-ID: 

No... After turbo.
I've seen what 'droplets' of water does to a compressor at 50,000rpm and
what happens when nozzles (pre to using the NOS ones) do when they fall into
the stream etc.... Not good ;(

Using a NOS fogger Nozzle on the outlet of the IC (if you have one) has
seemed to be the best way so far.
Same with nitrous nozzle placement.
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813



On 31/12/02 8:16 AM Hugh Keir wrote

> Hi Matt,
> 
> Was the application to inject pre - turbo.


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From porrittm at anet.co.nz  Tue Dec 31 21:45:44 2002
From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:45:44 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] This turbo assist stuff, suggestions
Message-ID: 

You my friend have 
a) got too much time
b) smoked too many drugs in your youth
c) are a smart cookie ;)

Why not use a properly sized exh housing with a BB core and a modern
compressor design?

Modern GT turbos can spool as low as 7psi @ 2200rpm on a 2l and produce over
400hp.
Quire frankly I don't like boost that low so I'd go bigger, and nothing is
simpler that a quick wiff of nitrous setup on pressure switches to get a
massively oversized turbo up and away ;)
-- 
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813


On 31/12/02 5:36 PM Mike wrote

> In reference to all this stuff about assisting the spool up of turbos,
> presumably for fast takeoffs and gadget value, what do people think of
> this dual approach (a=motor, b=boost):-
> 
> a.    The "Motor" part,
> Engineer the compressor plate to make it the rotor of a brushless
> (induction) motor - by placing polyphase windings behind it and
> driven by a 2 - 5 Kw motor driver, which could work as follows:-
> 
> 1.    The compresor plate is your classic induction motor rotor
> 2.    In 'normal' mode, the motor is off and the compressor
> plate at idle would spin as per normal and accelerate as
> per normal when foot placed on pedal. Eg. I observed my
> little T3 spinning at 300 rpm when engine at idle.
> 3.    In 'power' mode, brushless motor keeps the compressor
> running at a higher speed in readiness for planting the
> foot - such as a 10,000 rpm - but not for long as the comp.
> housing will get 'warm' and the windings likewise. In this
> mode induction motor at say 20% of rated and exhaust pumping
> away nicely.
> 4.    When pedal to floor (during 3 above), full power to induction
> motor windings! So the comp is boosted as fast a possible
> by the induction motor and exhaust gas.
> 
> *and*
> 
> b.    The "Boost" part,
> Compressed air is injected tangentially to compressor plate to
> also aid in spinning up with an extra injector to add the correct
> amount of fuel (slightly) rich to match the air injected. Some
> issues are:-
> 
> 1.    Compressed air feed via PWM injector to ensure control and
> of course to prevent over-spinning that poor turbine.
> 2.    Motor control and Boost control would work best if integrated
> to the same controller with feedback on turbine speed, this
> could also datalog the operation quite effectively.
> 3.    If there is enough power from (a) above and the compresor
> air injection is also 'optimum' - I would expect the turbo
> would act much like a one-way valve such that large amounts
> of additional compressed air and fuel could be added without
> the need for nitrous or special fuels.
> 4.    Having a tank with compressed air would be helpful which matches
> the 'boost spurt' people are looking for at launch, with a water
> trap and cooling so the compressed air can be cool enough to
> resist the detonation point - ie. It chills as it expands.
> 5.    A cheap way to get compressed air is to use one of those
> scuba tanks that hold 5000psi or so (need a regulator) from
> a scuba outlet - costs $5 to refill.
> 
> Comments ?
> 
> rgds
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From arnie_ at charter.net  Tue Dec 31 23:55:04 2002
From: arnie_ at charter.net (arnie)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 20:55:04 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] This turbo assist stuff, suggestions
Message-ID: 

Couldn't agree with you more, Matt, on entire post!  :)  And, with air
bearings in sight, turbos can just get better and even MORE responsive.

GAS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Porritt" 
To: "DIY-EFI" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] This turbo assist stuff, suggestions


> You my friend have
> a) got too much time
> b) smoked too many drugs in your youth
> c) are a smart cookie ;)
>
> Why not use a properly sized exh housing with a BB core and a modern
> compressor design?
>
> Modern GT turbos can spool as low as 7psi @ 2200rpm on a 2l and
> produce over 400hp.
> Quire frankly I don't like boost that low so I'd go bigger, and nothing
> is simpler that a quick wiff of nitrous setup on pressure switches to get
> a massively oversized turbo up and away ;)
> --
> Matt Porritt
> RC Race Cars and Supplies
> ICQ #22776813
>
>
> On 31/12/02 5:36 PM Mike wrote
>
> > In reference to all this stuff about assisting the spool up of turbos,
> > presumably for fast takeoffs and gadget value, what do people think of
> > this dual approach (a=motor, b=boost):-



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From amalventano at sc.rr.com  Tue Dec 31 23:59:40 2002
From: amalventano at sc.rr.com (Allyn)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 20:59:40 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] Base Fuel Calculations..
Message-ID: 

> Is there a basic fuel caclulation that I can use to figure out how much
> pulsewidth my engine will need at certain RPM/Load/MAP points?

this may be of assistance:
http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET
hth
Al

Allyn Malventano, ETC(SS), USN
87 Rieger GTO Scirocco 16v (daily driver, 180k, rocco #6)
86 Kamei Twin 16V Turbo Scirocco GTX ('it has begun', rocco #7)
86.5 Occo 16v Trailer (dotting 'i's across the country, rocco #8)
87 Jetta 8v Wolfsburg 2dr (daily driver, 270k, 0 rattles, original clutch,
driveshafts, wheels :)

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From peter at techedge.com.au  Sun Dec  1 02:46:50 2002
From: peter at techedge.com.au (Peter Gargano)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:46:50 -0300
Subject: [Diy_efi] WB sensor, where to buy?
Message-ID: 

Stephen Webb wrote:
> 
> so if anyone has been able to recently get one from the
> parts bin (or elsewhere for "cheap"), I'd love to hear about it.

People were buying them last week, but if TPB's catalogue entry
"doesn't work" then they are telling you they are out.

Part is 36531-P07-003 or ..

http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/partsbin/quote.jsp?product=36531-P07-003&Submit=GO&partner=partsbin&action=search&cart=&partnerSession=++&usemake=

Peter

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