[Diy_efi] 1.8 t transplant
Richards, Sean
Sean.Richards at diageo.com
Thu Dec 19 16:16:59 GMT 2002
-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org]
Sent: 18 December 2002 16:30
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #426 - 10 msgs
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: inertial vs brake (Erik Jacobs)
2. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Dave Dahlgren)
3. Re: Wind resistance calculator - FYI (Scott Campbell.)
4. Re: inertial vs brake (Dave Dahlgren)
5. Re: inertial vs brake (Adam Wade)
6. Re: RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs (Adam Wade)
7. Re: changing wbo2 reading via timing (Shannen Durphey)
8. RE: inertial vs brake (A6intruder)
9. RE: inertial vs brake (Adam Wade)
10. Hitachi MCU info (Rick)
--__--__--
Message: 1
From: "Erik Jacobs" <emj14 at columbia.edu>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:33:33 -0500
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
=====
Dnojet Research of Belgrade, Montana invented the "inertia" dynamometer in
1989 to test motorcycles. In 1994, it introduced the first inertia dyno for
cars and light trucks, the model 248C. An inertia dyno differs from a brake
dyno in several ways: 1) it has no active power absorption device 2) it's
more accurate, 3) it's less expensive, 4) it's easier on the vehicles being
tested and 5) it's easier to use. Some of the technology that made an
inertia dyno feasible was the personal computer's ability to make rapid
computations
=====
Adam you should really write to this guy....
http://www.idavette.net/hib/dynojet/
--__--__--
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:50:56 -0500
From: Dave Dahlgren <ddahlgren at snet.net>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
When you use the 4 gas machine do you get different readings when the timing
is
incorrect? or does combustion seem normal but the power is down? Can you
illustrate the set of conditions and what you might see and then if you
moved
the timing what might happen to the readings?? I am thinking that the WBO2
reports what it sees but what does the 4 gas see in the same situation that
would make you think that it is timing related rather than fueling related.
The
WB is seeing inefficient combustion hence the A/F ratio being skewed what
parameter in 4 gas would say the fueling is correct but the timing is off?
Dave
Adam Wade wrote:
>
> --- A6intruder <A6intruder at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> > I understand that the 4-gas gives more info than a
> > WB, but for those that don't have access to a 4-gas
> > a WB can still be very useful.
>
> It can also be misleading if you are not careful. I
> would say it is substantially better than nothing for
> roughing in a map, and is useful to varying degrees in
> a number of different tuning situations. However, for
> adjusting fueling, your BEST tool will always be
> residual CO, over residual O2.
>
> > Below you discuss that the WB changes as you change
> > timing at a given data point. Of course it does,
> > the WB is only reporting what it observes.
>
> Fair enough, as long as you can somehow figure out
> what optimal fueling is based on knowledge of the
> behavior and your timing map. For my dollar, it's far
> easier to get a single quick reading that can tell me
> a very great deal without having to guess or
> calculate. Since I doubt any of us own or build our
> own dynos, we all rent time on them. For that reason,
> I would recommend renting time on one that gives you
> the best "bang for your buck", if you wish to run on
> one.
>
> > Now you will have to decide if your resulting do
> > have to change A/F again to achieve your A/F goal.
>
> Exactly. My point was that with a four-gas, you can
> tune for best fueling, even if the vehicle could make
> better power via timing changes. It makes it a LOT
> quicker for many people when on the dyno.
>
> > My only point of entering the discussion is for
> > those without a 4-gas not to discount the usefulness
> > of a WB.
>
> Again, understood. More of a "horses for courses"
> argument on my part, and I think I've already
> mentioned the utility of the device more than once.
>
> =====
> | Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
> | http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it |
> | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. |
> | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun |
> | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut |
>
> __________________________________________________
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--__--__--
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:48:53 -0700
From: "Scott Campbell." <scampbell at mrccos.com>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Wind resistance calculator - FYI
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Hugh,
You may enjoy reinventing the wheel, and that is OK, but for us lazy types
there is a nice little program called StreetDyno:
http://www.tweecer.com/StreetDyno/
and another one called RoadDyno:
http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/roaddyno/dyno.htm
They do lack your AFR correlation though.
Scott.
Hugh Keir wrote:
> Here is a great set of worked calculations that take you through it step
by
> step.
>
> http://members.home.net/rck/phor/06-Speed.html titled The Physics of
Racing,
> Part 6: Speed and Horsepower
>
> I have been using them to produce a spreadsheet to calculate BHP, torque
etc
> using a datalogged RPM and vehicle speed signal.
>
> The density of air changes with humidity / pressure which I also added to
> the calculations.
>
> I also have a column for AFR from my DIY wideband to look for the best
> acceleration against which AFR
>
> My spreadsheet is 95% finished, I still have some problems with the
numbers
> in the dyno sheet.
>
> What have you used to obtain your datalog?
>
> Hugh
--__--__--
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:08:19 -0500
From: Dave Dahlgren <ddahlgren at snet.net>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
All I can say is if you want a good tune and want to hit every point on a
map go
to a shop that has a servo controlled brake either eddy current or water but
ya
gotta pull the engine out of the car if you want the real deal. The simplest
tuning strategy is to set the servo to the rpm of interest and slowly apply
load
and map away move to the next and do the same until you are done. Inertia
dynos
seem to be for the weekend warrior that is not willing to go the extra mile
for
the best possible tune.
Dave
Erik Jacobs wrote:
>
> =====
> Dnojet Research of Belgrade, Montana invented the "inertia" dynamometer in
> 1989 to test motorcycles. In 1994, it introduced the first inertia dyno
for
> cars and light trucks, the model 248C. An inertia dyno differs from a
brake
> dyno in several ways: 1) it has no active power absorption device 2) it's
> more accurate, 3) it's less expensive, 4) it's easier on the vehicles
being
> tested and 5) it's easier to use. Some of the technology that made an
> inertia dyno feasible was the personal computer's ability to make rapid
> computations
> =====
>
> Adam you should really write to this guy....
>
> http://www.idavette.net/hib/dynojet/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
--__--__--
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:17:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Adam Wade <espresso_doppio at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
--- Erik Jacobs <emj14 at columbia.edu> wrote:
> Adam you should really write to this guy....
Nah. He made up his mind without trying both types,
but stated "facts" about the comparison. Ones that
are very wrong in my experience, and I'm not the only
one (even on this list!). I *do* sometimes get tired
of wasting my breath, you know... :D ;)
=====
| Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
| http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it |
| didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. |
| They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
| The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun |
| had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut |
__________________________________________________
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:30:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Adam Wade <espresso_doppio at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #413 - 12 msgs
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
--- Dave Dahlgren <ddahlgren at snet.net> wrote:
> When you use the 4 gas machine do you get different
> readings when the timing is incorrect?
Well, depends on what you mean by "incorrect", but
yes, you can see definite and predictable changes in
the gases based on where the ignition timing is set.
> Can you illustrate the set of conditions and what
> you might see and then if you moved the timing what
> might happen to the readings?
Well, keep in mind that every engine is going to have
slightly different readings, because of intake and
exhaust tract resonances and efficiencies, cam timing
(duration and lift included), combustion chamber
shape, swirl, fuel atomization, and on and on... So
you'll never see the exact same readings on any two
different types of vehicles. Once you do one or two
of a particular vehicle you can establish a baseline
and tune to it, which will get you within a few
percent. Before you get a "baseline" and then tweak,
you would have to use basic tuning techniques of
overshooting and then coming back, which would take a
little bit longer (but especially with EFI, where you
can usually tune in real-time while on the dyno under
load, it's not much longer).
After that, if you know basically what a particular
combustion chamber is going to show you, the rest is
down the combustion science right out of the book. If
your ignition timing is too late, not only will you be
down on power, but you will see increased unburned HC
and O2 in the exhaust, with lower NOx, but similar CO
to "correct" timing. Too far asvanced will have low
HC and O2 numbers, higher NOx, and again the same CO,
as a rule of thumb. Obviously there is some
variation, but that's the basics.
> I am thinking that the WBO2 reports what it sees but
> what does the 4 gas see in the same situation that
> would make you think that it is timing related
> rather than fueling related.
See above. CO is what I've found to be the best guide
for mixture. Being able to correlate HC against O2 is
also a very important tool, but differences in intake
tract, fuel delivery, and combustion chamber will add
some variation. It's fairly easy to see timing, since
HC and O2 change together, and CO does not vary by
much.
> The WB is seeing inefficient combustion hence the
A/F
> ratio being skewed what parameter in 4 gas would say
> the fueling is correct but the timing is off?
See above. I cannot tell you how much easier a
four-gas makes things in terms of being able to
determine what's going on inside the combustion
chamber. Again some "reverse inference" is always
going to be necessary, since this is an indirect tool
and not a perfect predictor. But it's a very useful
tool, epsecially when you know what you're looking at.
=====
| Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
| http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it |
| didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. |
| They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
| The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun |
| had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut |
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:29:35 -0500
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] changing wbo2 reading via timing
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Adam Wade wrote:
>
> --- Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com> wrote:
>
> > By the time the mixture gets rich beyond the
> > sensor's range, the HC's stink.
>
> I've already answered this one. It was an example to
> illustrate a point in any case.
So I have said.
> I'm sorry that seems
> to have been lost on you.
I'm beginning to feel the same way. You have spent considerable effort
trying to prove one way and then another that I'm not correct. Now it
seems as though you're taking potshots.
>
> > While you're busy telling the local car club how
> > much better a purpose designed car is for a specific
> > job,
>
> I have no clue what you are claiming. I've never said
> or believed any such thing.
It's an analogy. lol. Either you can't think that way, or you need to
relax. No matter, after this I'll try not to use them in replies to your
posts.
This is the comparison I was making: Many people do not have access to the
type of dyno you promote. For those people it's good to know how to get
the most out of the time they may spend on an inertial dyno. You can talk
about the advantages of the brake dyno and four gas analyzer all day, but
it doesn't help anyone if they can't get time on that equipment.
Similarly, you can talk to the guys hanging out at the drive-in on Saturday
night about the advantages of F1 engines, but it doesn't help them a bit if
they can't get one for themselves.
Shannen
--__--__--
Message: 8
From: "A6intruder" <A6intruder at adelphia.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:39:56 -0500
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
I think it's great that you guys are comparing the merits of the two types
of dynos but for most of us we have to do most of our tuning on the street
and then use the dyno for verification and bragging rights.
I did use a local inertial dyno when I first hopped up my 1994 Mustang but
all we could adjust then was fuel pressure and base timing. Now that I've
discovered the EEC tuner and have a permanently installed WB, including data
log, I am able to tune any time I want. This is certainly not a same day
process for anything other than the WOT. The "street" portion of the tune
takes time because I have to let the EEC have miles to add it's own
corrections, then I make more changes to close the gap.
My use is certainly different than a circle track racer. An inertial dyno
very closely simulates my WOT use. On the street they frown on sustained
high RPM cruise...too bad.
I think my local guy is fairly reasonable at $60-80/hr but I am not going
back until I have the MAF curve nailed. Then I will show up with several
files ready changing the WOT A/F on each file. My use of the dyno would be
to see the difference A/F makes at each part of the RPM curve, then another
series of files to see the effect of timing changes.
I have considered mapping the A/F effects by just measuring the change of
acceleration (from data log) on the same piece of road at the same weight
within minutes of each run. This could show relative change to help select
the optimum A/F. But in the end I will want that nice dyno produced HP
curve printed out for bragging rights.
Daniel R. Nicoson
Equipment Exchange Company
Phone: (814) 774-0888
Fax: (814) 774-0880
-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Shannen Durphey
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:00 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
It's harder to get consistent back to back tests for comparison by just
pushing the throttle "part way." The mechanical stop would be one answer.
Logging MAP vs RPM while doing this can help to fill in VE table entries.
But it's tough to work on low speed driveability and around town type
operation using a strictly inertial dyno.
With VE tables set up in 2 or 3 axes, you want to find a method to work
through the table in an ordered fashion. A good method is to vary rpm at a
fixed MAP and/ or TPS, or to vary MAP and/ or TPS at a fixed rpm. The
problem is the unbraked inertial dyno can always accelerate. Once the
engine rpm stabilizes, fixed throttle gives much less load than normal
(very little, actually). You cannot maintain a specific rpm and put
significant load on the engine to represent steady state cruise. You need
to work against the fixed mass provided by the drum, and you need to
accelerate that mass to create a load.
The question for driveability is "what are you tuning for?" A minimum
requirement would be acceptable throttle response, maximum fuel economy,
and the perception that the engine's running correctly. If the vehicle is
subject to emissions regs, then emissions will be first and foremost in the
list of tuning goals, and the 4 gas analyzer and load type dyno will
probably be used for testing. For economy, one can watch power output and
indicated AFR at a fixed tps to get closer to maximum efficiency. Since
the drums are accelerating, response or throttle crispness can be roughly
estimated by watching the time it takes to go from one rpm to another at
that fixed throttle angle. This type of tuning would take a significant
time and when all is said and done, the calibration would probably need
more tuning on the street. Still, if I were paying for dyno time, and had
some time left over, and felt that I had most of my WOT and high MAP tuning
done, I might try a few runs with a throttle stop installed to at least
rough in the bottom of the tables.
I feel it's easier to judge the result of the driveability tune by watching
for reduction in TPS or by watching fuel consumption at a given power
output and rpm, or by watching the power required to maintain a specific
load at a fixed throttle angle and rpm. In other words, it's easier to do
it with a braking dyno than an inertial dyno.
Shannen
Erik Jacobs wrote:
>
> A question -- couldn't one test at less than WOT on an inertial dyno
> (Dynojet) to get different load conditions? Would this be possible?
> Beneficial? You could "guesstimate" constant throttle position by looking
> at the output of something like a TPS sensor and trying to hold that as
> constant as possible... you could also probably jury rig something on the
> throttle with some kind of electromechanical device to get a constant
> throttle position (servo or something).... am I talking nonsense?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:42:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Adam Wade <espresso_doppio at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] inertial vs brake
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
--- A6intruder <A6intruder at adelphia.net> wrote:
> I think it's great that you guys are comparing the
> merits of the two types of dynos but for most of us
> we have to do most of our tuning on the street
> and then use the dyno for verification and bragging
> rights.
One of the things about an eddy current or other
brake-type dyno is that, if you have real-time tuning
software, it doesn't take much longer to do a tune on
the dyno than it does to simply do a run to gather
data. That's something that people might want to keep
in mind when choosing a dyno.
There's nothing wrong with ANY method used to tune.
Some will give better data than others, some cost less
than others, some are quicker than others. Everyone
has to find a combination that works best for them.
For me, I have found that my time is valuable enough
that I am willing to spend a little money to save a
lot of it. My experience has led me to my own
conclusions, and thus YMMV, as well as your choices.
> The "street" portion of the tune takes time because
> I have to let the EEC have miles to add it's own
> corrections, then I make more changes to close the
> gap.
Driving the car around, it takes a lot more time to
hit more of the load/speed sites, whereas on a brake
dyno, you can manually "put" the vehicle at any one of
those sites you choose. If you have the tools to
gather data from load/speed sites from driving, and
are broke, or are using this to learn more about how
real vehicles in the real world use what's in the map,
then that's great, and I applaud you. It's a useful
learning tool, for certain. If you want to get the
car very close in a few hours, there's no substitute
for a good dyno.
I'd also note that some load/speed sites are not hit
very often in the real world, and thus getting a
complete map that's good under all conditions may be
more difficult using street tuning.
> On the street they frown on sustained
> high RPM cruise...too bad.
Hehe. ;) That's one reason I definitely recommend an
inertial dyno to someone that has no other tools. For
WOT fueling, it beats going to jail. :D
> I think my local guy is fairly reasonable at
> $60-80/hr but I am not going back until I have the
> MAF curve nailed.
Indeed. And honestly, if you can find someone with a
good brake dyno, see if their rates are competitive.
I believe you will get a lot more data that way, and
may even use it as a real-time tuning tool.
> Then I will show up with several files ready
> changing the WOT A/F on each file. My use of the
> dyno would be to see the difference A/F makes at
> each part of the RPM curve, then another
> series of files to see the effect of timing changes.
That's a pretty good way of doing WOT on an inertial.
> I have considered mapping the A/F effects by just
> measuring the change of acceleration (from data log)
> on the same piece of road at the same weight
> within minutes of each run. This could show
> relative change to help select the optimum A/F.
It's a great way to tune acceleration maps, for sure.
> But in the end I will want that nice dyno produced
HP
> curve printed out for bragging rights.
I hear you. ;) One thing to consider, too, is that
an inertial dyno (DynoJet in particular) will read
about 18% higher than a corresponding eddy current
dyno. While the numbers from the eddy current are not
only more repeatable, but more accurate as well, you
get better bragging rights with a DynoJet,
particularly if you can find one that reads higher
than the oens all your buddies use. ;)
=====
| Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
| http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it |
| didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. |
| They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
| The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun |
| had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut |
__________________________________________________
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Message: 10
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
From: "Rick" <rickss96 at excite.com>
Cc:
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:05:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hitachi MCU info
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
IIRC some Hondas use a version of Hitachi H8 MCU, probably others too. For
those interested, here is a link to Hitachi online training material for
this processor:
http://hitachi.techonline.com
This takes you to a registration page. Once registered, go to the Hitachi
Interactive home page and click on Catalog.
They have an introduction, architecture info, material on software
development tools, etc.
Download away :-)
Rick
replyto:RickSS96 at excite.com
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