[Diy_efi] New List Subscriber with Vague questions

[Shannen Durphey]

Jack Vines wrote:
> Jeremy,
> 
> FWIW, go with the carb.  Based upon your questions, your learning curve will
> be steep and expensive.  Best of all the carb will make just as much
> horsepower for 1/10th the cost.

These questions are a helluva lot more intelligent than some that I've 
seen here, and they sure don't indicate a carb solution is the best.

I had a tbi retrofit together and running 2 years before I'd ever seen 
the "insides" of a prom.  I paid all of $40 for a crossfire intake, 
TB's, and ecm and bolted the whole contraption onto the wrong size 
engine, with the wrong transmission, and too big a cam, and danged if it 
didn't run the firt time I tried to fire it up.  I asked a _lot_ of 
questions of people that were "in the biz" before starting the project 
(the 'net wasn't what it is today) and spent $$ with those same people 
along the way as a thanks for their time.  It wasn't until the "pay for 
services" guys' promises fell through that I dived into DIY prom 
burning.  If the chip guys I contacted had been able to deliver what 
they claimed, I'd probably still be paying for chips today.  It was the 
pay for services that got expensive, not the parts I picked up.


 >  Best of all the carb will make just as much
 > horsepower for 1/10th the cost.

There's plenty of places to save $$ if one plans ahead.  The first TPI I 
bought cost $275, back in 91.  They're selling for about the same price 
today.  It's really not a lot of $$ to spend.  The burner and eraser 
will run $200 - $250 new, but they're "universal" enough to be used on 
other projects.  I've had mine since 97 and I can't count how many chips 
I've burned with it.  Plus I've been able to reflash "lost" pc bios 
programs, copy boot roms in network cards, read the contents of the 
Snap-On scantool update cartridge...  It's a tool with many uses.

Why don't we put this into perspective?  The last domestic auto produced 
with a carb was released in 86? 87?  Since then, the demand for people 
who "know" carbs has dropped considerably.  Carb o'haul shops are 
closing, parts stores are selling fewer carb rebuild kits, automotive 
schools are teaching little about carbs.  Unless you have some need for 
this arcane knowledge, it's just not worth what it used to be.

Fuel injection, on the other hand, is here now and will stay for many 
years.  The earliest efi cars are starting to show up cheap in New 
England.  2.8L and 3.1L v6 engines are everywhere.  One can find TBI 6 
and 8 cylinder engines for under $200.  I've even been told of places on 
the east coast where high mileage LT1 engines are selling for similar 
prices.  When one can get a complete engine for under $500, which uses 
parts that are currently listed and likely stocked in many of the 
nation's parts stores, why would one subject oneself to using a part 
that "has to be ordered" or is "in the warehouse" or "isn't in the 
catalogue" when it needs to be replaced?  What a way to ruin a weekend.

With EFI here, so is the need for experienced individuals.  Dealership 
service techs often know less about the detailed working of efi than 
someone who's put together a DIY system.  Techs want to make easy money, 
and that often means just following the charts and replacing the parts 
indicated.  How much system level understanding is found there?  There's 
a real need for people who can accurately diagnose and repair vehicles. 
  With a good knowledge of the rudimentary operation of efi, a person 
can find a means to make $$ on weekends or in a day job.  Taken a step 
farther, a good "tuner" can find a means to make a very profitable 
income.  What better time to learn about efi than now?

> 
> Bottom line, EFI is for factories and technogeeks who like a serious
> challange. 

EFI is for everyone.  It's on the road, on motorcycles, on snowmobiles, 
on boats, on lawnmowers, on aircraft...  Building a reliable and fun efi 
system isn't anything like trying to rebuild the kernel in your open 
source operating system, or winding your own remote control rc car 
motors, or heading out to the Alaskan woods with nothing more than a 
compass, Bowie knife, and magnifying glass.  It's a matter of bolting on 
parts, turning the key, and enjoying the ride.


> The cost/performance equation is all in favor of an Edelbrock
> AFB and a Performer manifold.

Would you agree that the AFB and Performer intake combination is very 
basic?  It's a simple pair that doesn't present the tuning challenges 
of, say, a couple of Predators on a tunnel ram, or 3 staged 2bbls, or an 
IR manifold?  It just doesn't make sense to make your first project 
something that requires the level of attention and understanding that 
those systems take.  The efi route is similar.  For the first 
conversion, start with something relatively close to stock.  Find a cam 
that works with efi, pick a factory intake and ecm, run a similar trans, 
and you'll minimize the amount of tuning you'll need.  (This message is 
_everywhere_ in the archives, BTW).  Get experience with the parts 
involved, understand how the "stuff" works together, and enjoy building 
a running vehicle.  Then jump into man's real pastime:  "messing with 
stuff."  As you begin to change parts and acquire more "goodies", you'll 
be well on your way to being "into" efi without ever taking a side trip 
through the land of mis-adjusted floats, leaky bowls, improper choke 
calibration, poorly calibrated "out of the box" aftermarket carbs, and 
all the "other" headaches that world brings with it.  And you'll have 
skills you can use elsewhere.
Shannen

> 
> thnx, jv.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeremy MacLennan [mailto:jeremy_maclennan at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 1:25 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] New List Subscriber with Vague questions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> 
> I'm gearing up to do a small block chevy V8 motor swap into my car, and I 
> have been thinking about fuel delivery options.   Initially, I thought I 
> would use a carb, due to simplicity, low cost, and high performance 
> potential.  However, EFI is much more attractive from a drivability and 
> tuning perspective, theoretically at least.   It seems to me, and I am very 
> green with this, that using a stock TPI, or TBI setup is highly expensive 
> and difficult for a non-stock motor.  Am I way off here?   What is the most 
> cost effective EFI set up I could put together that would make some decent 
> power?    I don't need to make things emmissions legal on this vehicle.     
> Any comments much appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeremy


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