Message

From porrittm at anet.co.nz Sat Feb 1 09:28:39 2003 From: porrittm at anet.co.nz (Matt Porritt) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 06:28:39 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Cleaning injectors Message-ID: Yu run them on a duty cycle, open or closed? -- Matt Porritt RC Race Cars and Supplies ICQ #22776813 On 1/2/03 12:50 AM Mike wrote > I bought a A$200 ultrasonic cleaner from my local electronics > store and holds about 750ml, good enough to soak and clean > about 6 injectors at a time, first in isoprpopyl alcohol to > get rid of any resins and then in petrol to get rid of the > iso.p.a and worked fine :) _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From hugh at sol.co.uk Sat Feb 1 10:10:02 2003 From: hugh at sol.co.uk (Hugh Keir) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 07:10:02 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] DIY_EFI: WI in exhaust manifold pre-turbo Message-ID: Ohio, Not sure about others, but my interest lies in spooling up a turbo. A datalog of the boost pressure with the water / methanol on and off will give me most of what I need. I also have EGT sensing which I can pass details on. Hugh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ohio Benz" To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 5:10 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] DIY_EFI: WI in exhaust manifold pre-turbo > In order to determine if the WI is achieving the > desired results in a test situation, either flow or > pressure would have to be measured at a point shortly > after the WI nozzle. Is there a MAP or flow sensor out > there capable of withstanding the exhaust temps?? > > I've got an engine I would like to set up for some > tests - without hooking up a turbo - simply checking > EGT's before & after, and MAP with & without the WI. > All this in order to develop some concept of a > starting point of nozzle size & flow requirements. > > Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. > > > ===== > Jerrit Ekama > > OHB Tuning > Custom fabrication of performance parts for your Mercedes, VW, BMW, Audi. > U.S. domestic and foreign vehicle repair and maintenance. > Powder coating, Anodizing, TIG welding, CNC machining services. > IM: OHBenz > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From steve at copow.freeserve.co.uk Sat Feb 1 13:37:45 2003 From: steve at copow.freeserve.co.uk (Steven Cook) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 10:37:45 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============83514462962562819== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2C9F9.24E19B40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2C9F9.24E19B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi=20 Am looking into fuel injecting a Yamaha RD350 LC twin . It is a 2stroke and know this will be hard . Have any of yoo had ealings ,or perhaps done fuel injection on one? Any hints or instructions would be gratefully received=20 Thank you=20 steve ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2C9F9.24E19B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Am looking into fuel injecting a Yamaha = RD350 LC=20 twin .

It is a 2stroke and know this will be = hard=20 .

Have any of yoo had ealings ,or perhaps = done fuel=20 injection on one?

Any hints or instructions would be = gratefully=20 received

Thank you

steve

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2C9F9.24E19B40-- --===============83514462962562819== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============83514462962562819==-- From ohiobenz at yahoo.com Sat Feb 1 15:48:16 2003 From: ohiobenz at yahoo.com (Ohio Benz) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 12:48:16 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] DIY_EFI: WI in exhaust manifold pre-turbo Message-ID: Hello, Could those of you with turbocharged/supercharged engines with or w/o intercoolers in the 1.8-2.3 liter displacement range provide me with some EGT data. The data I am looking for is from the idle rpm till about 6psi boost. engine displacement turbo or SC Intercooled or not WI or not location of EGT sensor relative to cylinder head EGT at 2000 rpm or less EGT at 6-7 psi Thanks __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bct at pacific.net.sg Sat Feb 1 15:53:58 2003 From: bct at pacific.net.sg (Bong) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 12:53:58 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] how to indentify chip number? Message-ID: > Dear Sir, > > I have a Mercedes Benz E200 Kompressor. But I do not know the Chip > number. The original Chip has no number on it. If i use a Eprom > Programmer, will it be able to detect the Chip number? (when i perform > read chip) And how do i know its a 16bit or 32bit? EPROM or EEPROM? > What method is possible to identify a Chip number, if its not printed? > I need to know Chips number for vehicle model like, E200K, S320, BMW > E36, E46, Volkswagens and etc. before i can proceed any programming. (ECUs to be modified including, Bosch, Siemens, Weber Marelli, Ford EEC4 and EEC5, Saab Trionic and GM Delco ) > If the original chip is in 16bit, and i used a 32bit chip to remapping the fuel parameter, is it possible?or it will be redundancy? > How would you compare www.racelogic.co.uk and www.tunercat.com?(in > term of no.of parameters) > > Thanks. > > And looking forward to hear from you. > > Best Regards, > Bong > p.s. please note that all vehicles are in Euro Spec Compliant. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From joeld at ualberta.ca Sat Feb 1 16:59:39 2003 From: joeld at ualberta.ca (joeld) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 13:59:39 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke Message-ID: We are currently designing our own 2-stroke out of billet and will be injecting it. Are you planning on injecting in the transfers or in the crankcase? I don't see how it would be hard at all, you just need to sped up your rpm signal and hope the RD has enough electrical to run your system. I have seen a 2-stroke running on a Haltech before. I talked to the guy and he said if he did it again, he wouldn't go with Haltech. I know D.T.A makes a controller for a rotax application, I would check that out. Or see if you could get your hands on the new Ski-Doo 800 SDI controller and do some modifactaions. Hope that helps Joel Day C.S.C 2003 Team Leader PH: 434 9294 www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From chevaliernoir at free.fr Sat Feb 1 17:32:27 2003 From: chevaliernoir at free.fr (Le Chevalier Noir) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 14:32:27 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============27864351486601602== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0168_01C2CA22.542BF160" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0168_01C2CA22.542BF160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello I'm working with a company calles Synerject. They are designing injection system for 2 stroke engine. They use a "orbital" lisence. Injection is performed directly on the cylinder. By this way, there is = no troble with tranfer, and non-burnt gazoline in the exhaust. This is = easyer with 2 stroke engine, 'cause the internal compression is lower = than with 4 sroke engines. Gazoline is pushed by compressed air. This system is sold for italian/corean/french scooter, and some marine = engine, i think... The ECU they use is very good, and maybe it could be a good thing to buy = a complete system of a scooter and adampt to your engine? Le Chevalier Noir ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steven Cook=20 To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org=20 Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 2:52 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke Hi=20 Am looking into fuel injecting a Yamaha RD350 LC twin . It is a 2stroke and know this will be hard . Have any of yoo had ealings ,or perhaps done fuel injection on one? Any hints or instructions would be gratefully received=20 Thank you=20 steve -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi ------=_NextPart_000_0168_01C2CA22.542BF160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello

I'm working with a company calles=20 Synerject.

They are designing injection system for = 2 stroke=20 engine.

They use a "orbital" = lisence.

Injection is performed directly on the = cylinder. By=20 this way, there is no troble with tranfer, and non-burnt gazoline in the = exhaust. This is easyer with 2 stroke engine, 'cause the internal = compression is=20 lower than with 4 sroke engines.

Gazoline is pushed by compressed = air.

This system is sold for = italian/corean/french=20 scooter, and some marine engine, i think...

The ECU they use is very good, and = maybe it could=20 be a good thing to buy a complete system of a scooter and adampt to your = engine?

Le Chevalier Noir

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Steven Cook

To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org

Sent: Saturday, February 01, = 2003 2:52=20 PM

Subject: [Diy_efi] re 2 = stroke

Am looking into fuel injecting a = Yamaha RD350 LC=20 twin .

It is a 2stroke and know this will be = hard=20 .

Have any of yoo had ealings ,or = perhaps done fuel=20 injection on one?

Any hints or instructions would be = gratefully=20 received

Thank you

steve

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi = mailing=20 list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://www.diy-e= fi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
------=_NextPart_000_0168_01C2CA22.542BF160-- --===============27864351486601602== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============27864351486601602==-- From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 1 20:34:57 2003 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 17:34:57 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke Message-ID: --- joeld wrote: > I don't see how it would be hard at all, I think he was meaning that it would be difficult to deal with two-stroke oil going either through the injectors or concurrently with the injection event. Seems to me that raises some concerns, at least in my mind. I'd tend to stay cautious and run with some kind of separate oil pump/injection system that kept the oil away from the fuel. ===== | Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From joeld at ualberta.ca Sat Feb 1 21:21:34 2003 From: joeld at ualberta.ca (joeld) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 18:21:34 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke Message-ID: Yes, the way Bombardier is doing it is with the standard oiling system still dripping into the crankcase. I suppose if you are into the RD's you are mixing your own fuel though? What we are doing is sealing the crankcase completely and going to a 4-stroke style sump, while keeping the two stroke top end. We will be using Mitsubishi's DI technology along with a supercharger and our own custom billet head and cylinders. Joel Day C.S.C 2003 Team Leader PH: 434 9294 www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From karlandanne at sympatico.ca Sat Feb 1 23:07:28 2003 From: karlandanne at sympatico.ca (The McConnell's) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 20:07:28 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke Message-ID: will that be reliable? how far along is that project? ----- Original Message ----- From: "joeld" To: Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 4:37 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke > Yes, the way Bombardier is doing it is with the standard oiling system still > dripping into the crankcase. I suppose if you are into the RD's you are mixing > your own fuel though? > > What we are doing is sealing the crankcase completely and going to a 4-stroke > style sump, while keeping the two stroke top end. We will be using > Mitsubishi's DI > technology along with a supercharger and our own custom billet head and > cylinders. > > Joel Day > C.S.C 2003 Team Leader > PH: 434 9294 > www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From joeld at ualberta.ca Sun Feb 2 01:02:36 2003 From: joeld at ualberta.ca (joeld) Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2003 22:02:36 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke Message-ID: I think it will be very reliable, I see no reason why it won't be. We have almost finished designing our cylinders and head on Pro Engineer, we have our supercharger, and will be getting the mitsubishi motors in from NZ very soon. The link in my signature is our website about the project. I don't know if any of you guys, get the SAE literature, but if you do, check out the January edition. Looks like we are heading down the right path. Joel Day C.S.C 2003 Team Leader PH: 434 9294 www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From fireguy50 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 2 04:12:08 2003 From: fireguy50 at yahoo.com (Ryan McCormick) Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 01:12:08 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Speed-density vs. MAF/MAP... Message-ID: i am way over my head in most conversations in this list. but i have a question. i have followed along on the debate on where to take samples of MAP (eg, pre TB, post TB, by intake valves, in air box) Is there a prefered length of vacuum hose from that point of refence to the actual sensor? i am asking because the further away from the valves it seems the air flow is smoother. would sampling closer but using longer vacuun line be any thing worth pondering over? Ryan (first post to this group) --- Adam Wade wrote: > --- Marcell Gal wrote: > > > (I reroute the discussion to the list if you don't > > mind) > > Not at all. I actually thought my original reply to > you was to the list. ;) > > >> In addition, you can read MAP before or after the > >> throttle. That would give two very different > >> numbers. > > > you're probably right. > > Even if you're at full throttle, you have a > restriction in the throttle body itself, plus the > plenum acts as a capacitor for the air... So unless > you're at a sufficient rpm, steady-state, to get > relatively smooth airflow through the throttled > volume > (taking into account the intake valve opening and > closing), you should have pretty notable differences > between PAP (as you call it below) and true MAP. > > > However since MAP is Manifold Air Pressure I would > > not call pre-throttle Air Pressure as MAP. > > Well, there are speed density systems out there > using > both techniques, so obviously there are ways to make > both workable, although I imagine they differ. I'd > definitely like to experiment with that, or hear > from > someone who knows the differences from experience. > > >> If you read MAP from the throttled volume > > > that's what I call MAP > > Yes, I agree that that is truly MAP. > > >> right before the intake valve closes > > > I agree with that, good point. > > I think I meant right before it OPENS. If there is > some supercharging going on from tuned intake length > and reflected pressure pulses, that is where you > would > "see" it with a MAP sensor. > > Of course, VE cannot be inferred from that alone, as > you also have valve overlap, engine rpm, and exhaust > length as factors in the mix. This is one area > where > I believe mass air has the advantage when reversion > is > not an issue; mass air automatically takes into > account any changes in VE as long as there is no > backflow through the MAF. More VE means more air > ingested, and you can read that directly. In fact, > you should be able to very easily compute VE with a > solid MAF signal and rpm. > > Speed density CAN take into account changes in VE, > but > it depends on how and when the MAP is measured. If > MAP is relatively steady (high engine speed), then > it's trivial, and speed density should be as > accurate > as mass air. It's when the signal is not steady > (closer to idle) that issues might arise from how > the > MAP sensor is sampled. > > >> If you have a higher throttled volume MAP before > >> the intake valve opens, at a given RPM and > throttle > >> opening, then you're going to get better filling. > >> If the engine itself suddenly becomes more > >> efficient (tuning the exhaust to that particular > >> RPM, for example), then the MAP should drop > >> slightly as more air moves through. > > > OK. So we can confirm the appr. > > > VE= Constant * (pAmbient - MAP)/RPM > > relationship, ( only applies, when MAP(RPM) is > > measured at WOT, seems similar to an airbox > pressure > > sensor config) > > Fair enough. > > I think the big advantage of the airbox MAP, then, > is > that you can close the throttle(s) and still use the > same formula as above. While MAP drops like a stone > at idle with the throttle(s) closed, that gives the > opposite of the above formula... The MORE > difference > bewteen ambient and MAP at a given rpm, the LESS > power > the engine is making. > > > which is quite inverse of what could be thought > > or some previous email suggested (though not > stated > > explicitely). > > I think I am seeing now where the confusion arose in > our communications. > > >> I'm led to wonder, since the most obviously > useful > >> MAP numbers seem to come from the throttled > volume, > >> what the real-world difference is in plenum MAP > and > >> throttled volume MAP. > > > Is there a better name for Plenum Air Pressure, > like > > PAP? > > Not yet. Maybe I should invent a new standard in my > book. ;) > > I think I answered most of my own question in this > email, as well. > > >> Does the plenum and throttle(s) act as a filter > for > >> low-rpm pulsation to some degree? > > In answer to my own question: More than that, it > allows you to see the ACTUAL pressure drop from > ingested air at ANY throttle opening, while you > would > need to know the throttle opening with a true MAP > sensor to know what the pressure reading was telling > you. > > > I think so. The further away from the valves, the > > smoother the airflow should be -- generally. > > And you have the big capacitor of the plenum. > > > Why don't we take 32..64 MAP samples per > revolution? > > (at least to get datalogs to support the > > pre-intakevalve-opening theory). > > I am working with someone who is going to be doing > some significant datalogging, and we are going to > outright test a lot of the ideas that have come up > in > this threat to find strengths and weaknesses, useful > and less useful methods of doing things. I've > become > immensely curious, and it's time to find out the > correct answers. > > > Even processing that realtime should not be too > > prohibitive with fixed point math. > > I'd even be interested in taking oscilloscope > traces, > synced to crank timing, and exploring different > ideas > for sampling times in crank degrees to again find > what > would be more or less useful in a practical sense. > > > (definitely less resource than the pure wav data > > from a knock-sensing mic) > > Heh, I almost think it makes more sense to look at > synced analog initially to get some ideas, and then > explore the actual application of those ideas in a > digital realm, once we know what our sampling > parameters need to be. > > ===== > | Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr > 550 (Daphne) | > | > http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ > | > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great > catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims > belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which > was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was > that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt > Vonnegut | > > __________________________________________________ > === message truncated === _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Sun Feb 2 09:20:22 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 06:20:22 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WI, methanol, and corrosion Message-ID: At 10:55 PM 30/1/2003 +0100, you wrote: >Okay, I'll try to simulate it somehow in an attempt to understand it more. >Anyway, your explanation leaves me with a question: why one onf the biggest >name in motorsports, one with "unlimited" R&D and resources, is using an IC >and port WI if there is some free lunch in not using one and injecting water >earlier? Simple, relative heat load and mass of water to carry - there is likely a CPM approach to asses value in either camp, rgds mike _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From hugh at sol.co.uk Sun Feb 2 19:09:02 2003 From: hugh at sol.co.uk (Hugh Keir) Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 16:09:02 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] DIY_EFI: WI in exhaust manifold pre-turbo Message-ID: Ohio, My egt is about 700? C after the turbo when cruising at around zero boost running about 16:1 AFR Running richer makes it cooler, probably about 650 at 14.7:1, but as the engine is a heat pump I recon a bit of temperature is a good thing. I used to find it was quite easy to get temperatures over 900?C when running about a bar of boost, but again it is very dependant on the AFR I was using. After fitting Aquamist race water injection running two .7mm jets using 50:50 water methanol I keep temperatures to around 830?C running 1.6 bar boost. Engine cc = 3000, twin turbo, intercooled, WI, EGT probe 10" after rear turbo. Manifolds and downpipes heat wrapped. Hugh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ohio Benz" To: Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 4:03 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] DIY_EFI: WI in exhaust manifold pre-turbo > Hello, > > Could those of you with turbocharged/supercharged > engines with or w/o intercoolers in the 1.8-2.3 liter > displacement range provide me with some EGT data. > > The data I am looking for is from the idle rpm till > about 6psi boost. > > engine displacement > turbo or SC > Intercooled or not > WI or not > location of EGT sensor relative to cylinder head > EGT at 2000 rpm or less > EGT at 6-7 psi > > Thanks > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bill at shurvinton.fsworld.co.uk Tue Feb 4 03:44:35 2003 From: bill at shurvinton.fsworld.co.uk (Bill SHURVINTON) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 00:44:35 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] turbo "throttling" Message-ID: Called a 'dual scroll' turbine. Used by mazda in the Rx7 Turbo II. Does give you 2 A/Rs but as ever no free lunch. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Jacobs" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 7:14 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] turbo "throttling" > > My thoughts were to use a divided turbine housing and build a > > throttle body that could be used to route the exhaust gases > > to A) one side of the housing or B) both. This should give you > > two AR's and thus allow a big turbo to be spooled up quickly. > > Does anyone see a flaw in this idea? > > The AR wouldn't change, I don't think, depending on the entry to the turbo. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From BrentP at MotoBits.com Tue Feb 4 03:44:35 2003 From: BrentP at MotoBits.com (Brent Prindle) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 00:44:35 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke Message-ID: Has anyone actually tried running premix thru fuel injectors? Castor could be a problem with gumming-up, but most of the modern synthetics are excellent at mixing and not drying out like castor-bean oil. Am thinking in this direction for a racebike project. Would like to avoid the pump reliability issues and variable metering problem. -oo Brent Prindle BrentP at MotoBits.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "joeld" To: Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 1:37 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke > Yes, the way Bombardier is doing it is with the standard oiling system still > dripping into the crankcase. I suppose if you are into the RD's you are mixing > your own fuel though? > > What we are doing is sealing the crankcase completely and going to a 4-stroke > style sump, while keeping the two stroke top end. We will be using > Mitsubishi's DI > technology along with a supercharger and our own custom billet head and > cylinders. > > Joel Day > C.S.C 2003 Team Leader > PH: 434 9294 > www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From mikeklopfer at hotmail.com Tue Feb 4 03:44:36 2003 From: mikeklopfer at hotmail.com (mike klopfer) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 00:44:36 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] diy throttle body Message-ID: i've been looking into fabricating a throttle body for a 460 ford engine. i got a guy to help me do the CAD based on the 1.5" holes pattern of the OEM carburetor. i checked with a local cnc shop and got a quote for $140 each for 10 pieces. the design isn't complete e.g. theres no place for the throttle valve since originally i was planning to use the throttle plate off the carburetor. so this got me to thinking about getting a group that's interested and doing a complete design and having it fabricated. of course we're not limited to the 460 ford. any application where there's enough interest. i'd be glad to download the stl file of the design i have if there's interest. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From peter.johannezon at axis.com Tue Feb 4 03:44:43 2003 From: peter.johannezon at axis.com (Peter Johannezon) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 00:44:43 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Bonneville DME Editor Message-ID: Hello! Looking for the DME-Editor. It looks like it=B4s not open for download = any longer at its original homepage.=20 Do you know where I can find it? Peter Johannezon _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From SHay at tmmna.com Tue Feb 4 03:44:59 2003 From: SHay at tmmna.com (SHay at tmmna.com) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 00:44:59 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Injector Leaking Message-ID: To find your fuel (injector?) leak, spray the area including the injectors with aerosol powder, like foot powder. Apply fuel pressure for just a moment and then vent pressure. Keep repeating and inspecting as you go until the leak starts. You will find the source. Your own common sense should prevail with where you should and should not spray the powder. Works good for most any hard to find leak. Scott _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From ryan at cisltd.co.nz Tue Feb 4 03:45:14 2003 From: ryan at cisltd.co.nz (Ryan) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 00:45:14 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rs 232 through check port. Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============62597282853135505== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2CC4B.DA5EE1E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2CC4B.DA5EE1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I have been searching through the message archives, and are starting = to get lost. What I am trying to do is connect my pc to the check connector on my = Nissan 300zx 1990 via rs 232. the Ecu is 8 bit , and the check connector has the lines RX, TX & = CLK to the ecu, But I am unsure of how to connect to rs 232. I did think = of using a max232 but I don't know what to do with the CLK line If any one can help me in any way or tell me were to look, please = email me at ryan at cisltd.co.nz=20 Thanks Ryan (AKA - another EFI DIY Nutter) ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2CC4B.DA5EE1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

I have been = searching through=20 the message archives, and are starting to get lost.

What I am trying to = do is=20 connect my pc to the check connector on my Nissan 300zx 1990 via rs=20 232.

the Ecu = is 8=20 bit , and the check connector has the lines RX, TX = & CLK to=20 the ecu, But I am unsure of how to connect to rs 232. I did think of = using a=20 max232 but I don't know what to do with the CLK line

If any one can help = me in any=20 way or tell me were to look, please email me at ryan at cisltd.co.nz

Thanks

Ryan (AKA - another = EFI DIY=20 Nutter)

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C2CC4B.DA5EE1E0-- --===============62597282853135505== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============62597282853135505==-- From pedward at apsoft.com Tue Feb 4 03:57:06 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 00:57:06 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] turbo "throttling" Message-ID: The new Evo 8 uses one too. Perhaps that's why they are doing 19psi and only getting 270/273 out of the motor. It's closest comp is the STi, 300/300. --Perry On Fri, Jan 24, 2003 at 09:04:57PM -0000, Bill SHURVINTON wrote: > Called a 'dual scroll' turbine. Used by mazda in the Rx7 Turbo II. Does give > you 2 A/Rs but as ever no free lunch. > > Bill > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Erik Jacobs" > To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 7:14 PM > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] turbo "throttling" > > > > > My thoughts were to use a divided turbine housing and build a > > > throttle body that could be used to route the exhaust gases > > > to A) one side of the housing or B) both. This should give you > > > two AR's and thus allow a big turbo to be spooled up quickly. > > > Does anyone see a flaw in this idea? > > > > The AR wouldn't change, I don't think, depending on the entry to the > turbo. -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From michalk at awpi.com Tue Feb 4 04:03:56 2003 From: michalk at awpi.com (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 01:03:56 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pressure vs flow? Message-ID: Would anyone happen to have any data for pressure vs flow for CIS injectors? I have some Bosch KE CIS injectors, but any CIS injector data would be helpful. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Tue Feb 4 04:17:10 2003 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 01:17:10 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] re 2 stroke Message-ID: --- Brent Prindle wrote: > Has anyone actually tried running premix thru fuel > injectors? Castor could be a problem with gumming- > up, but most of the modern synthetics are > excellent at mixing and not drying out like > castor-bean oil. I'd be more worried about spray patterns, atomization, and flow rate with the much more viscous pre-mix coming out of the injector nozzles. If I wanted to run pre-mix through an injector, I'd be prone to redesign the injector to optimize for the viscosity you'd be using. You'd also need to, just like with carbs, change your mapping (jetting) when you change brands of oil, as they are different viscosities. > Am thinking in this direction for a racebike > project. Would like to avoid the pump reliability > issues and variable metering problem. I'll be very interested to see how you do with it, and especially what sort of comparative power and mileage you get. ===== | Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From maier_markus at t-online.de Tue Feb 4 12:40:27 2003 From: maier_markus at t-online.de (maier_markus at t-online.de) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:40:27 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rs 232 through check port. Message-ID: Hi, go and check this one: http://www.obd-2.de Might have some info or at least links for you. Ciao Markus Ryan schrieb: > Hi all, > > I have been searching through the message archives, > and are starting to get lost. > > What I am trying to do is connect my pc to the check > connector on my Nissan 300zx 1990 via rs 232. > > the Ecu is 8 bit , and the check connector has the > lines RX, TX & CLK to the ecu, But I am unsure of how to > connect to rs 232. I did think of using a max232 but I > don't know what to do with the CLK line > > If any one can help me in any way or tell me were to > look, please email me at ryan at cisltd.co.nz > > Thanks > > Ryan (AKA - another EFI DIY Nutter) > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From steve.andersen at dol.net Tue Feb 4 20:25:34 2003 From: steve.andersen at dol.net (Stephen Andersen) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 17:25:34 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 2, Issue 5 Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:56:54 +0100 From: Peter Johannezon >To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" >Subject: [Diy_efi] Bonneville DME Editor >Hello! > >Looking for the DME-Editor. It looks like it=3DB4s not open for = download =3D any longer at its original homepage.=3D20 Do you know where I can find = >it? > > >Peter Johannezon You can't find it. Jim stopped selling it long ago. However, he is = working on a "new" version of it which will function for ALL model BMW's up to = current, as a "personal" one vehicle version. Should be available sometime later this year. Steve _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Tlsalt at aol.com Tue Feb 4 21:09:27 2003 From: Tlsalt at aol.com (Tlsalt at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:09:27 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pressure vs flow? Message-ID: Brian Michalk wrote, Would anyone happen to have any data for pressure vs flow for CIS injectors? I have some Bosch KE CIS injectors, but any CIS injector data would be helpful. Hello Brian, Porsche 911 turbo CIS injectors Opening pressure-30psi System pressure- 90psi Delivery rate- 160-240 cc/min Delivery rate controlled by metering slits in the control plunger. Height of control plunger determined by airflow Vs control pressure. Control pressure manipulated by WUR, O2 frequency valve, etc. No duty cycle limitations, just like a garden hose. Are you looking for delivery rate Vs control pressure? Paul Saltwick _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From michalk at awpi.com Tue Feb 4 21:17:00 2003 From: michalk at awpi.com (Brian Michalk) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:17:00 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pressure vs flow? Message-ID: > Hello Brian, > > Porsche 911 turbo CIS injectors > > Opening pressure-30psi > System pressure- 90psi > Delivery rate- 160-240 cc/min > > Delivery rate controlled by metering slits in the control plunger. > Height of control plunger determined by airflow Vs control pressure. > Control pressure manipulated by WUR, O2 frequency valve, etc. > No duty cycle limitations, just like a garden hose. > > Are you looking for delivery rate Vs control pressure? > > Paul Saltwick Thanks. That mirrors what I've found in my books, but yes, I would like to know various flow rates per pressure. Also, I understand they open at 30psi(depending on part number), but am confused as to operating pressure. When they reference operating pressure, is that the regulated pressure from the FPR to the CIS regulator? Or is that the pressure at the injector? _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 5 01:53:25 2003 From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (dunvegan) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 22:53:25 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] ALDL OBD1 connector Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C2CC88.F3F84D70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any source to purchase cable end connector ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C2CC88.F3F84D70 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IjICAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANMHAgAEABQABgAAAAIA/AAB A5AGAEgEAAAiAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AcAAB AAAAHgAAAFtEaXlfZWZpXSBBTERMIE9CRDEgY29ubmVjdG9yAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAcLMuz37 gHlfPw1USYCpxMpbf3Vv7AAAAgEdDAEAAAAcAAAAU01UUDpEVU5WRUdBTkBTQkNHTE9CQUwuTkVU AAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAGDgD0vCC7zMIBAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKuIAhPFsx9GmYWbW2L8bnvCgAAA CwAfDgEAAAACAQkQAQAAAIsAAACHAAAAogAAAExaRnXhImxmAwAKAHJjcGcxMjUWMgD4C2BuDhAw MzNPAfcCpAPjAgBjaArAc7BldDAgBxMCgH0KgZJ2CJB3awuAZDQMYB5jAFALAwu1EWBueSACcwhh Y2UgdG8gTnAUMRDwESAgYwGgbNsUYAnwZBUwAiBuBZAUgC5yCqIKgBHhABcQAAsAAYAIIAYAAAAA AMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwADgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUAAAAAAAADAAeA CCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAAc3kBAB4ACYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAAB AAAABAAAADkuMAALAA2ACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAACChQAAAQAAAAsAOoAIIAYAAAAAAMAA AAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwA8gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADAD2ACCAG AAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAAsAUoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAaFAAAAAAAA AwBTgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAAYUAAAAAAAACAfgPAQAAABAAAACriAITxbMfRpmFm1ti /G57AgH6DwEAAAAQAAAAq4gCE8WzH0aZhZtbYvxuewIB+w8BAAAAlgAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7 CAArKlbCAABQU1RQUlguRExMAAAAAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XERvY3VtZW50cyBh bmQgU2V0dGluZ3Nccmlja1xMb2NhbCBTZXR0aW5nc1xBcHBsaWNhdGlvbiBEYXRhXE1pY3Jvc29m dFxPdXRsb29rXG91dGxvb2sucHN0AAAAAwD+DwUAAAADAA00/TcAAAIBfwABAAAANgAAADxCUEVH SkpJRkRBTkRHQU9QS0xNSU1FTkFDQUFBLmR1bnZlZ2FuQHNiY2dsb2JhbC5uZXQ+AAAAAwAGEO/w 9LgDAAcQJAAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAACUAAABBTllTT1VSQ0VUT1BVUkNIQVNF Q0FCTEVFTkRDT05ORUNUT1IAAAAAD9g= ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C2CC88.F3F84D70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C2CC88.F3F84D70-- From Sid.Young at qml.com.au Wed Feb 5 02:00:41 2003 From: Sid.Young at qml.com.au (Sid.Young at qml.com.au) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 23:00:41 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Circuit for TimDrury DII system Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --===============23048610011344328== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C2CCBC.6178F470" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CCBC.6178F470 Content-Type: text/plain Has anyone built the DDI system designed by Tim Drury ? I have a question or two about the circuit diagram supplied. ____________________________________________ Sid Young B I.T. (cs dc) AD (cse) DBA Intranet Developer Analyst / Programmer Information Systems Department Sid.Young at qml.com.au QML Pathology Phone: (07) 3840 4941 Fax: Fax??? This is the 21st Century! www.qml.com.au 60 Ferry Rd West End, QLD 4101 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CCBC.6178F470 Content-Type: text/html Message

Has anyone built the DDI system designed by Tim Drury ?

I have a question or two about the circuit diagram supplied.

____________________________________________

Sid Young B I.T. (cs dc) AD (cse)

DBA
Intranet Developer
Analyst / Programmer

Information Systems Department

Sid.Young at qml.com.au

QML Pathology Phone: (07) 3840 4941 Fax: Fax??? This is the 21st Century! www.qml.com.au

60 Ferry Rd
West End, QLD 4101

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2CCBC.6178F470-- --===============23048610011344328== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============23048610011344328==-- From sravet at arm.com Wed Feb 5 02:10:36 2003 From: sravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 23:10:36 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] ALDL OBD1 connector Message-ID: dunvegan wrote: > > Any source to purchase cable end connector The dealer -- take a look at the gmecm FAQ "harness connectors" --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com ARM,Inc. www.arm.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From hnormand at asphatech.com Wed Feb 5 17:38:16 2003 From: hnormand at asphatech.com (Hugo Normand) Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 14:38:16 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] ALDL OBD1 connector Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CD15.1A34A420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For what kind of car are you looking for and to use it with which type of datalogger? > -----Message d'origine----- > De : diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] > Envoy? : Tuesday, February 04, 2003 9:07 PM > ? : diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Objet : [Diy_efi] ALDL OBD1 connector > > Any source to purchase cable end connector > > << Fichier: ATT00002.txt>> ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CD15.1A34A420 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IgMRAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAANMHAgAFAAwAMQAAAAMAIQEB A5AGALAGAAAnAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAHgBwAAEAAAAeAAAAW0RpeV9lZmldIEFMREwgT0JEMSBjb25uZWN0b3IAAAACAXEAAQAAABsA AAABwsy7PfuAeV8/DVRJgKnEylt/dW/sACDf3yAAAgEdDAEAAAAcAAAAU01UUDpITk9STUFOREBB U1BIQVRFQ0guQ09NAAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAGDgDOC90+zcIBAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAAAAAAAExjXTKxRr8R uacGmwoqZrXCgAAACwAfDgEAAAACAQkQAQAAAC0CAAApAgAANwMAAExaRnU6XYY7AwAKAHJjcGcx MjUWMgD4C2BuDhAwMzNPAfcCpAPjAgBjaArAc/BldDAgBxMCgwBQEGYYcHJxDlAQ2FRhaJsDcQKA fQqACMggOwlvLQ4wNQKACoF2CJB3a2kLgGQ0DGBjAFALA2PTEgILxCBGBbF3EPAFQMEW4iBvZiBj CsEKwKhlIHkIYCAJAG8W4RxnIAIQGcEZQXRvIDJ1ESAgaQVAA/B0aMcYwQ3gHDB0eXAaABlxRmQY 8AdAb2dnBJA/DwqiCoQKhAswbGkzNk8BQBfQAUASsG90BZB0eQvSNCADMA8EIEAR9DEoNiAtIaJN B5BzYUsdoB0gJwWwaWcLgGU/IaMd5h+0H4ELEx+2aS0YMTQ0AUAfADE4MAcBQAzQJVNiIERlXCx+ OgMwDJJiEVBkaRx5XwEQJTAG4HVuY9UHkEAngS0nwS4FsBrAblsAwAMQG2A6J48omF0HCuMKgSaA RW52b3mwXCdlOSbBJwZUClAScx0weSwYgGVicsJ1CsB5IDA0LdAB0AEPUCA5OjA3IFD2TSuWLHBj AUAsyCnFKHoxK5dPYmoRMCy5W0RDKdQrcEFMREwyoEL8RDEZkAIgIuAf8AWwHeyfI98f4h8EDwYY B0FuLmDucwhhKEAbUnA5gRDwG6H/GaACYBoACfAZUDT4F9I2WuMeJx9pIDw8GIAccQiRMSbgQVRU JeAl4DIusQzQdD4+HeQUIQBAYAAAAB4AQhABAAAANgAAADxCUEVHSkpJRkRBTkRHQU9QS0xNSU1F TkFDQUFBLmR1bnZlZ2FuQHNiY2dsb2JhbC5uZXQ+AAAACwABgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAA A4UAAAAAAAADAAOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMAB4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAAFKFAACOagEAHgAJgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAEAAAAOS4wAB4A CoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAuACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAMgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAA AAAAAAsADYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAIKFAAABAAAACwA6gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYA AAAADoUAAAAAAAADADyACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAPYAIIAYAAAAAAMAA AAAAAABGAAAAABiFAAAAAAAACwBSgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAABoUAAAAAAAADAFOACCAG AAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAIB+A8BAAAAEAAAAExjXTKxRr8RuacGmwoqZrUCAfoP AQAAABAAAABMY10ysUa/EbmnBpsKKma1AgH7DwEAAABUAAAAAAAAADihuxAF5RAaobsIACsqVsIA AFBTVFBSWC5ETEwAAAAAAAAAAE5JVEH5v7gBAKoAN9luAAAARDpcUGVyc29cZW1haWxcb3V0bG9v ay5wc3QAAwD+DwUAAAADAA00/TcAAAIBfwABAAAANgAAADxMUEJCTEpLSEVLUElGSEJJTkhQREFF TUxIQUFBLmhub3JtYW5kQGFzcGhhdGVjaC5jb20+AAAAAwAGEJiscdkDAAcQJgEAAAMAEBAAAAAA AwAREAIAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABGT1JXSEFUS0lORE9GQ0FSQVJFWU9VTE9PS0lOR0ZPUkFORFRP VVNFSVRXSVRIV0hJQ0hUWVBFT0ZEQVRBTE9HR0VSPy0tLS0tTUVTU0FHRURPUklHSU5FLS0tLS1E RTpESVlFAAAAAGJp ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CD15.1A34A420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2CD15.1A34A420-- From Tlsalt at aol.com Wed Feb 5 19:57:04 2003 From: Tlsalt at aol.com (Tlsalt at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 16:57:04 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pressure vs flow? Message-ID: Brian Michalk wrote, I would like to know various flow rates per pressure. Also, I understand they open at 30psi(depending on part number), but am confused as to operating pressure. When they reference operating pressure, is that the regulated pressure from the FPR to the CIS regulator? Or is that the pressure at the injector? Hello Brian, CIS does not control flow at the injector with a pressure regulator. The injectors receive "system " pressure which is regulated to a consistent pressure by a regulator in the fuel distributor. The amount of fuel delivered to the injector is controlled by the height of the slits in the control plunger. This is mechanically connected to the airflow sensor plate. The height that the airflow sensor plate moves in relation to a given volume of air is altered by varying "control pressure" (separate circuit of fuel that does not reach the injectors). I would guess that the pressure the injectors actually sees is slightly different from the "system" pressure because of the varying restriction presented by the height of the slit in the control plunger. However, Bosch does not calibrate off the injector pressure. The "system" pressure is fixed, and the "control" pressure varies to alter the mixture for compensation (cold running, acceleration, boost mixture). Reducing the"control" pressure allows the air flow sensor plate to rise more for a given volume of air, exposing more of the slits and increase the volume of fuel delivered to the injector. Think of the airflow sensor as a "see-saw", as more air enters the system, one side rises, causing the other side to fall, exposing an increasingly larger opening to the injector fuel lines. The basic relationship is fixed, the "control" pressure loop just changes the weight balance of the "see-saw". When control pressure is low (cold engine) there is a 40 lbs kid on the air flow side, as the engine warms up, the kid slowly puts on weight until he hits 100lbs (2.5times). KE and Lambda CIS alter a third pressure differential to slightly tweek the fuel delivery volume, but not by altering injector pressure directly. Bosch was actually quite surprised that it worked. The best part is 90 psi at the injector and that little pressure driven, wobbly pin atomizing the fuel. Paul Saltwick _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From michalk at awpi.com Wed Feb 5 21:13:53 2003 From: michalk at awpi.com (Brian Michalk) Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 18:13:53 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pressure vs flow? Message-ID: Thanks for the discussion. I've got three references on the Bosch system and know exactly what you are talking about. I even blew over $1000 bucks to get a brand-spanking new metering plate assembly, fuel distributor, throttle body and Fuel Pressure regulator. Man, the workmanship is incredible. Unfortunately, the only component I decided to use was the throttle body, and hopefully the injectors. By the way, if anyone wants a downdraft airflow sensor and fuel distributor for a six cylinder engine, let me know. As far as the FPR? I put it in my lathe and turned it down so I could take it apart to see how it worked. I want to run my EFI system at 50psi, and use the CIS injectors as backup. I like the atomization of the CIS injectors, but if they crack open at 30 PSI, I don't think I'll be able to get enough flow at 50PSI unless I crank up my rail pressure to something closer to 90 or 100. The only thing I don't like about that is the electric fuel pump really eats a lot of current making 100psi. Again, this is for an airplane with two injection systems. The EFI was easy, the backup requires some more research. So, back to the CIS issue. The only thing that makes squirting possible is pressure, therefore the plunger causes some sort of pressure variation. I thought someone on the list would know. I'm getting to the point where I'll need this information, so I'll put together some sort of test stand to measure flow vs pressure. I've got all the components, just thought someone here could save me the trouble. > I would guess that the pressure the injectors actually sees is slightly > different from the "system" pressure because of the varying restriction > presented by the height of the slit in the control plunger. > However, Bosch > does not calibrate off the injector pressure. The "system" pressure is > fixed, and the "control" pressure varies to alter the mixture for > compensation (cold running, acceleration, boost mixture). Reducing > the"control" pressure allows the air flow sensor plate to rise more for a > given volume of air, exposing more of the slits and increase the > volume of > fuel delivered to the injector. Think of the airflow sensor as a > "see-saw", > as more air enters the system, one side rises, causing the other side to > fall, exposing an increasingly larger opening to the injector > fuel lines. The > basic relationship is fixed, the "control" pressure loop just changes the > weight balance of the "see-saw". When control pressure is low > (cold engine) > there is a 40 lbs kid on the air flow side, as the engine warms > up, the kid > slowly puts on weight until he hits 100lbs (2.5times). KE and Lambda CIS > alter a third pressure differential to slightly tweek the fuel delivery > volume, but not by altering injector pressure directly. > > Bosch was actually quite surprised that it worked. The best part > is 90 psi at > the injector and that little pressure driven, wobbly pin > atomizing the fuel. > > Paul Saltwick > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From tmadia at uswest.net Thu Feb 6 04:15:41 2003 From: tmadia at uswest.net (Tyler Madia) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 01:15:41 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============4296929994596741== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0052_01C2CD5D.AFCB8B00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C2CD5D.AFCB8B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The archives were a bit vague on the subject of applying EFI to an MGB. = Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's definitely something I've = always wanted to do... Thanks, Tyler Madia ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C2CD5D.AFCB8B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The archives were a bit vague on the subject of = applying=20 EFI to an MGB. Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's=20 definitely something I've always wanted to do...

Thanks,

Tyler = Madia

------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C2CD5D.AFCB8B00-- --===============4296929994596741== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============4296929994596741==-- From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com Thu Feb 6 09:15:31 2003 From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 06:15:31 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: If you mean A-series with siamese ports, this can be done. There are = even kits available if you have big $$. These all use a single injector, = TBI style. A home-brew 2 injector per port system is yet to be DIY'd although you = could pull the MPI system off a late model mini. However this is hightly = complex merely to meet emissions so of little use for the power hungry. Bill -----Original Message----- From: ext Tyler Madia [mailto:tmadia at uswest.net] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:30 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI The archives were a bit vague on the subject of applying EFI to an MGB. = Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's definitely something I've = always wanted to do... Thanks, Tyler Madia _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Thu Feb 6 09:30:28 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 06:30:28 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] [ot] Any GMH-VL owners on this list ? Message-ID: Hi all, (As the list has been so damn quiet recently...) Are there any GMH - VL owners on this list, I have a 1986 white GMH VL Turbo and I think there is one other VL owner, just curious if there's only the two of us ? PS: I'm making a printed circuit board replacement for the often melted VL fuse holders - the black underhood one Kind Regards ~`:o) Mike Massen Network Power Systems Perth, Western Australia Ph/Fx +61 (0)8 9444 8961, Mb +61 (0)438 048961 Power system in Jungle, Twin tyre car, Differential gauge experiment http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/index.html Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From rh49684 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 6 15:59:12 2003 From: rh49684 at hotmail.com (R H) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 12:59:12 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Additional Injectors Message-ID: I've been looking at all the posts I can find about running another set of injectors parallel to the oem set (for adding a turbo), but haven't had any luck finding complete information (I would need a schematic or VERY detailed information... I've taken one electronics course, years ago, which stopped short of IC's). It looks like the most common approach is to use a 555 timer, but I was thinking there must be a way to snip off the end of the injector pulse to the extra set, and vary how much is snipped off based on MAP input. I would like to have the 2nd set open based on the time of the oem set to let the ECU take care of factors like IAT, water temp, load, etc. if any on knows how to set up extra injectors with a 555 system, or anyone has thoughts on the idea I offered please e-mail me @ rh49684 at hotmail.com and/or post. Thank you _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Tlsalt at aol.com Thu Feb 6 19:47:16 2003 From: Tlsalt at aol.com (Tlsalt at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 16:47:16 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pressure vs flow? Message-ID: Brian Michalk wrote, I want to run my EFI system at 50psi, and use the CIS injectors as backup. I like the atomization of the CIS injectors, but if they crack open at 30 PSI, I don't think I'll be able to get enough flow at 50PSI unless I crank up my rail pressure to something closer to 90 or 100. The only thing I don't like about that is the electric fuel pump really eats a lot of current making 100psi. Again, this is for an airplane with two injection systems. The EFI was easy, the backup requires some more research. So, back to the CIS issue. The only thing that makes squirting possible is pressure, therefore the plunger causes some sort of pressure variation. Hello Brian, I think what you are trying to do is possible, but it will be difficult to vary the fuel delivery without using the fuel distributor. The opening pressure limit is just to prevent bleed down after the engine stops, if there is air flowing into the engine, the fuel pump is on and the injectors are constantly spraying. There is no "injector off" time. What about using a separate CIS pump and some kind of manual flow control valve for a limited speed range? Kinsler barrel valve with a cable? Paul Saltwick _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Sid.Young at qml.com.au Thu Feb 6 21:18:48 2003 From: Sid.Young at qml.com.au (Sid.Young at qml.com.au) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 18:18:48 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] EFI on motorcycles Message-ID: Howdy all, Years ago when I was last a member of this list I asked if anyone had put EFI onto a motorcycle, since then has anyone been able to achieve this ? Sid _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From pedward at apsoft.com Thu Feb 6 21:42:35 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 18:42:35 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Oz Wideband Message-ID: Hmm. Did Pete buy Gar's design? Looks like a radically different beast than the DIY-WB derived unit. And it's recent. --Perry -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From r71chevy at earthlink.net Thu Feb 6 22:07:10 2003 From: r71chevy at earthlink.net (r71chevy at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 19:07:10 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Oz Wideband Message-ID: Maybe, Gar is out of business & is looking for someone to "buy the intelectual property". BW -------Original Message------- From: Perry Harrington Sent: 02/06/03 01:58 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] Oz Wideband > > Hmm. Did Pete buy Gar's design? Looks like a radically different beast than the DIY-WB derived unit. And it's recent. --Perry -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From joeld at ualberta.ca Thu Feb 6 22:07:21 2003 From: joeld at ualberta.ca (joeld) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 19:07:21 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] EFI on motorcycles Message-ID: We sure have. Check out our website in my signature, if you have any more questions, just give me a shout. Joel Day C.S.C 2003 Team Leader PH: 434 9294 www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Sid.Young at qml.com.au Thu Feb 6 22:22:00 2003 From: Sid.Young at qml.com.au (Sid.Young at qml.com.au) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 19:22:00 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] EFI on motorcycles Message-ID: Joel, Pretty cool, have you got any technical information on ignition triggering, maybe circuit diagrams etc.. I am looking to build something similar to Tim Drury's DIS for starters and then work on the EFI part. Target engines will Kawa z900 and Honda CB750 Sid -----Original Message----- From: joeld [mailto:joeld at ualberta.ca] Sent: Friday, 7 February 2003 8:23 AM To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EFI on motorcycles We sure have. Check out our website in my signature, if you have any more questions, just give me a shout. Joel Day C.S.C 2003 Team Leader PH: 434 9294 www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From cell at x-dsl.hu Fri Feb 7 00:03:08 2003 From: cell at x-dsl.hu (Marcell Gal) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 21:03:08 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Additional Injectors Message-ID: Hello, > I've been looking at all the posts I can find about running another set of > injectors parallel to the oem set (for adding a turbo), but haven't had any > luck finding complete information (I would need a schematic or VERY > detailed information... I've taken one electronics course, years ago, which > stopped short of IC's). It looks like the most common approach is to use a > 555 timer, but I was thinking there must be a way to snip off the end of > the injector pulse to the extra set, and vary how much is snipped off based > on MAP input. > > I would like to have the 2nd set open based on the time of the oem set to > let the ECU take care of factors like IAT, water temp, load, etc. Tough. You have an intelligent system that measures MAP or MAF. ---- first let's try with MAP or MAF signal to orig ECU unchanged It might handle a low amount (5..20%) of boost with no problem, without any extra injectors. However it will plateau: weather because injectors reach 100%, or because it assumes that VE I would be happy with a TBI setup if I could find a GM application with a 4 cylinder TBI and MAS. I think I could adapt that pretty easily. Anybody know of such a combination? Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:27 AM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI If you mean A-series with siamese ports, this can be done. There are even kits available if you have big $$. These all use a single injector, TBI style. A home-brew 2 injector per port system is yet to be DIY'd although you could pull the MPI system off a late model mini. However this is hightly complex merely to meet emissions so of little use for the power hungry. Bill -----Original Message----- From: ext Tyler Madia [mailto:tmadia at uswest.net] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:30 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI The archives were a bit vague on the subject of applying EFI to an MGB. Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's definitely something I've always wanted to do... Thanks, Tyler Madia _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From mark.linder at verizon.net Fri Feb 7 01:17:44 2003 From: mark.linder at verizon.net (Mark Linder) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:17:44 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: A Pontiac Fiero or an S- series GM or Chevy pickup would be a good starting point. Not sure if they are MAP or MAF. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Tyler Madia Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 5:22 PM To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI I would be happy with a TBI setup if I could find a GM application with a 4 cylinder TBI and MAS. I think I could adapt that pretty easily. Anybody know of such a combination? Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:27 AM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI If you mean A-series with siamese ports, this can be done. There are even kits available if you have big $$. These all use a single injector, TBI style. A home-brew 2 injector per port system is yet to be DIY'd although you could pull the MPI system off a late model mini. However this is hightly complex merely to meet emissions so of little use for the power hungry. Bill -----Original Message----- From: ext Tyler Madia [mailto:tmadia at uswest.net] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:30 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI The archives were a bit vague on the subject of applying EFI to an MGB. Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's definitely something I've always wanted to do... Thanks, Tyler Madia _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From hilkaa at racsa.co.cr Fri Feb 7 01:22:38 2003 From: hilkaa at racsa.co.cr (electronica del automovil) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:22:38 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] engine sensors simulator Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1528411093185289== Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_8Q9JrUTiaFlavXNIORDTNg)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_8Q9JrUTiaFlavXNIORDTNg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear diy efi people: I am looking for an engine sensors test bench simulator, that let me to simulates the signals from the engine sensors(rpm,TDC,Map,MAF,O2, CTS,IATS, and others sensores of EFI system). I would like to know if this equipment exists, because I want to buy it, or if you know how to build it. Thanks for your attention Daniel Solano --Boundary_(ID_8Q9JrUTiaFlavXNIORDTNg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Dear diy efi people:

I am looking for an engine sensors test bench simulator, that let me to simulates the signals from the engine sensors(rpm,TDC,Map,MAF,O2, CTS,IATS, and others sensores of EFI system).

I would like to know if this equipment exists, because I want to buy it, or if you know how to build it.

Thanks for your attention

Daniel Solano

--Boundary_(ID_8Q9JrUTiaFlavXNIORDTNg)-- --===============1528411093185289== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============1528411093185289==-- From michael.wyborny at qlogic.com Fri Feb 7 01:22:39 2003 From: michael.wyborny at qlogic.com (Michael Wyborny) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:22:39 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] DIY-EFI References Message-ID: HI there... I've been looking long and hard... and I have stumbled upon you... -Do you have a copy of j2205 (cancelled in '99). Or better yet, information on the J2190 routines commands(manufacter'er reserved $30-$3f). I just can't seem to get this information anywhere... (or I CAN, if I want to spend $5,000...) Thanks, Michael A. Wyborny Qlogic 805 Las Cimas Parkway, Suite 200 Austin, Texas. 78746 Michael.wyborny at qlogic.com fax # 512-330-9057 _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From tmadia1 at cox.net Fri Feb 7 01:22:44 2003 From: tmadia1 at cox.net (Tyler Madia) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:22:44 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MG EFI Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============46907165218233882== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2CBEB.07635A60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2CBEB.07635A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The archives were a bit vague on the subject of applying EFI to an MGB. = Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's definitely something I've = always wanted to do... Tyler Madia ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2CBEB.07635A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The archives were a bit vague on the subject of = applying=20 EFI to an MGB. Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's=20 definitely something I've always wanted to do...

Tyler Madia

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C2CBEB.07635A60-- --===============46907165218233882== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============46907165218233882==-- From joeld at ualberta.ca Fri Feb 7 01:25:04 2003 From: joeld at ualberta.ca (joeld) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:25:04 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] EFI on motorcycles Message-ID: This is the preamble of a multipart MIME formatted message. If you are reading this text your mail system is most likely not capable of properly decoding MIME messages. To extract the contents of this message, save it to a file and then use an external MIME decoding utility. --mime-boundary-interchange-3e46bfdf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We ran an optical sensor on the oil pump side. It was not hard to hook up at all. The pic sort of shows it. We had it on the crankshaft extension that ran the 2-stage oil pump. We never did get into making our own ign maps, we just used the stock ign Joel Day C.S.C 2003 Team Leader PH: 434 9294 www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc --mime-boundary-interchange-3e46bfdf Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="oilpumpassy.jpg" Content-disposition: attachment; filename="oilpumpassy.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgEASABIAAD/7RgoUGhvdG9zaG9wIDMuMAA4QklNA+0A AAAAABAASAAAAAEAAgBIAAAAAQACOEJJTQQNAAAAAAAEAAAAeDhCSU0D8wAA AAAACAAAAAAAAAAAOEJJTQQKAAAAAAABAAA4QklNJxAAAAAAAAoAAQAAAAAA AAACOEJJTQP1AAAAAABIAC9mZgABAGxmZgAGAAAAAAABAC9mZgABAKGZmgAG AAAAAAABADIAAAABAFoAAAAGAAAAAAABADUAAAABAC0AAAAGAAAAAAABOEJJ TQP4AAAAAABwAAD/////////////////////////////A+gAAAAA//////// /////////////////////wPoAAAAAP////////////////////////////8D 6AAAAAD/////////////////////////////A+gAADhCSU0ECAAAAAAAEAAA AAEAAAJAAAACQAAAAAA4QklNBBQAAAAAAAQAAAABOEJJTQQMAAAAABaXAAAA AQAAAHAAAABUAAABUAAAbkAAABZ7ABgAAf/Y/+AAEEpGSUYAAQIBAEgASAAA //4AJkZpbGUgd3JpdHRlbiBieSBBZG9iZSBQaG90b3Nob3CoIDUuMP/uAA5B 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text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --mime-boundary-interchange-3e46bfdf-- From peterw at waybeat.com.au Fri Feb 7 01:26:02 2003 From: peterw at waybeat.com.au (peterw) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:26:02 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] EFI on motorcycles Message-ID: > > > Howdy all, > > Years ago when I was last a member of this list I asked if anyone had put > EFI onto a motorcycle, since then has anyone been able to achieve this ? > > > Sid > I've been thinking about this and I am wondering wether a modified CV carb could be used(these are a dime a dozen at the wreckers). It would provide the throttle butterfly and manifold pressure sensing. Position of the CV piston is proportional to manifold pressure.(vacumn is negative pressure) Don't need all the jets, needle etc. Just a thought. Peter _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Sid.Young at qml.com.au Fri Feb 7 01:31:41 2003 From: Sid.Young at qml.com.au (Sid.Young at qml.com.au) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:31:41 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] EFI on motorcycles Message-ID: Hi, I am thinking the same thing as a first attempt, I have seen it done in a book and it looked like a good way to go. Eventually when I would like to mahine up that part myself. Sid -----Original Message----- From: peterw [mailto:peterw at waybeat.com.au] Sent: Friday, 7 February 2003 11:43 AM To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EFI on motorcycles > > > Howdy all, > > Years ago when I was last a member of this list I asked if anyone had > put EFI onto a motorcycle, since then has anyone been able to achieve > this ? > > > Sid > I've been thinking about this and I am wondering wether a modified CV carb could be used(these are a dime a dozen at the wreckers). It would provide the throttle butterfly and manifold pressure sensing. Position of the CV piston is proportional to manifold pressure.(vacumn is negative pressure) Don't need all the jets, needle etc. Just a thought. Peter _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From RRauscher at nni.com Fri Feb 7 01:44:08 2003 From: RRauscher at nni.com (rr) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:44:08 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Oz Wideband Message-ID: Yo Perry, Trying to give Pirate Pete' a wet dream? Ha-ha-ha, BobR. Perry Harrington wrote: > > Hmm. Did Pete buy Gar's design? > > Looks like a radically different beast than the DIY-WB derived unit. And it's > recent. > > --Perry > > -- > Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc > perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ > > Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety > deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. > -- Benjamin Franklin > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From nwester at eidnet.org Fri Feb 7 02:00:59 2003 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 23:00:59 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: TBI with a MAF ? Can't think of one... Lyndon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Linder" To: "'List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk'" Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > A Pontiac Fiero or an S- series GM or Chevy pickup would be a good > starting point. Not sure if they are MAP or MAF. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] > On Behalf Of Tyler Madia > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 5:22 PM > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > I would be happy with a TBI setup if I could find a GM application with > a 4 cylinder TBI and MAS. I think I could adapt that pretty easily. > Anybody know of such a combination? > > Tyler > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:27 AM > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > If you mean A-series with siamese ports, this can be done. There are > even kits available if you have big $$. These all use a single injector, > TBI style. > > A home-brew 2 injector per port system is yet to be DIY'd although you > could pull the MPI system off a late model mini. However this is hightly > complex merely to meet emissions so of little use for the power hungry. > > Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Tyler Madia [mailto:tmadia at uswest.net] > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:30 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > The archives were a bit vague on the subject of applying EFI to an MGB. > Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's definitely something I've > always wanted to do... > > Thanks, > Tyler Madia > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From michalk at awpi.com Fri Feb 7 02:02:27 2003 From: michalk at awpi.com (Brian Michalk) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 23:02:27 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pressure vs flow? Message-ID: The arrangement needs to be simple and robust. I have a barrel valve with which to regulate flow, and have the capability to machine different flow/angle profiles. At this time, I'm just trying to get specs on the injectors, because if they won't flow 20gallons per hour at 50 PSI, then I can't use them. I'll test them this weekend and see what they do. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Tlsalt at aol.com > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 1:58 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] pressure vs flow? > > > Brian Michalk wrote, > > I want to run my EFI system at 50psi, and use the CIS injectors as backup. > I like the atomization of the CIS injectors, but if they crack open at 30 > PSI, I don't think I'll be able to get enough flow at 50PSI unless I crank > up my rail pressure to something closer to 90 or 100. The only thing I > don't like about that is the electric fuel pump really eats a lot > of current > making 100psi. > > Again, this is for an airplane with two injection systems. The EFI was > easy, the backup requires some more research. > > So, back to the CIS issue. The only thing that makes squirting > possible is > pressure, therefore the plunger causes some sort of pressure variation. > > Hello Brian, > > I think what you are trying to do is possible, but it will be > difficult to > vary the fuel delivery without using the fuel distributor. The opening > pressure limit is just to prevent bleed down after the engine > stops, if there > is air flowing into the engine, the fuel pump is on and the injectors are > constantly spraying. There is no "injector off" time. What about using a > separate CIS pump and some kind of manual flow control valve for > a limited > speed range? Kinsler barrel valve with a cable? > > Paul Saltwick > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From pedward at apsoft.com Fri Feb 7 02:10:34 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 23:10:34 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: I think a 1998 Chevy Astro 4.3 is TBI and MAF. We had one at work and I hooked the OBDII scanner to it. It had MAF and a MAP sensor. I believe they are TBI, not MPI. --Perry On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 07:17:27PM -0700, Programmer wrote: > TBI with a MAF ? Can't think of one... > > Lyndon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Linder" > To: "'List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk'" > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:26 PM > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > > > > A Pontiac Fiero or an S- series GM or Chevy pickup would be a good > > starting point. Not sure if they are MAP or MAF. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] > > On Behalf Of Tyler Madia > > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 5:22 PM > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > > > > I would be happy with a TBI setup if I could find a GM application with > > a 4 cylinder TBI and MAS. I think I could adapt that pretty easily. > > Anybody know of such a combination? > > > > Tyler > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:27 AM > > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > > > > If you mean A-series with siamese ports, this can be done. There are > > even kits available if you have big $$. These all use a single injector, > > TBI style. > > > > A home-brew 2 injector per port system is yet to be DIY'd although you > > could pull the MPI system off a late model mini. However this is hightly > > complex merely to meet emissions so of little use for the power hungry. > > > > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ext Tyler Madia [mailto:tmadia at uswest.net] > > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:30 AM > > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > > > > The archives were a bit vague on the subject of applying EFI to an MGB. > > Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's definitely something I've > > always wanted to do... > > > > Thanks, > > Tyler Madia > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From mark.linder at verizon.net Fri Feb 7 02:12:48 2003 From: mark.linder at verizon.net (Mark Linder) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 23:12:48 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: DOH! Sometimes the fingers are faster than the brain. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Programmer Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:17 PM To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI TBI with a MAF ? Can't think of one... Lyndon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Linder" To: "'List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk'" Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > A Pontiac Fiero or an S- series GM or Chevy pickup would be a good > starting point. Not sure if they are MAP or MAF. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] > On Behalf Of Tyler Madia > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 5:22 PM > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > I would be happy with a TBI setup if I could find a GM application > with a 4 cylinder TBI and MAS. I think I could adapt that pretty > easily. Anybody know of such a combination? > > Tyler > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:27 AM > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > If you mean A-series with siamese ports, this can be done. There are > even kits available if you have big $$. These all use a single > injector, TBI style. > > A home-brew 2 injector per port system is yet to be DIY'd although you > could pull the MPI system off a late model mini. However this is > hightly complex merely to meet emissions so of little use for the > power hungry. > > Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Tyler Madia [mailto:tmadia at uswest.net] > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:30 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > The archives were a bit vague on the subject of applying EFI to an > MGB. Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's definitely something > I've always wanted to do... > > Thanks, > Tyler Madia > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Fri Feb 7 03:25:05 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 00:25:05 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] DIY-EFI References Message-ID: sorry I dont know what a j2205 is ? rgds mike At 11:23 AM 6/2/2003 -0800, you wrote: >HI there... > I've been looking long and hard... and I have stumbled upon you... > > -Do you have a copy of j2205 (cancelled in '99). Or better yet, information on the J2190 routines commands(manufacter'er reserved $30-$3f). > > I just can't seem to get this information anywhere... (or I CAN, if I want to spend $5,000...) > > Thanks, > >Michael A. Wyborny >Qlogic >805 Las Cimas Parkway, Suite 200 >Austin, Texas. 78746 >Michael.wyborny at qlogic.com >fax # 512-330-9057 > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Fri Feb 7 03:26:44 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 00:26:44 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: assuming they are your fingers, *grin* mike At 06:21 PM 6/2/2003 -0800, you wrote: > > >DOH! Sometimes the fingers are faster than the brain. > > >-----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] >On Behalf Of Programmer >Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:17 PM >To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > >TBI with a MAF ? Can't think of one... > >Lyndon > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Linder" >To: "'List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk'" >Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:26 PM >Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > >> >> A Pontiac Fiero or an S- series GM or Chevy pickup would be a good >> starting point. Not sure if they are MAP or MAF. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] >> On Behalf Of Tyler Madia >> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 5:22 PM >> To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI >> >> >> I would be happy with a TBI setup if I could find a GM application >> with a 4 cylinder TBI and MAS. I think I could adapt that pretty >> easily. Anybody know of such a combination? >> >> Tyler >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:27 AM >> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI >> >> >> If you mean A-series with siamese ports, this can be done. There are >> even kits available if you have big $$. These all use a single >> injector, TBI style. >> >> A home-brew 2 injector per port system is yet to be DIY'd although you > >> could pull the MPI system off a late model mini. However this is >> hightly complex merely to meet emissions so of little use for the >> power hungry. >> >> Bill >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ext Tyler Madia [mailto:tmadia at uswest.net] >> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:30 AM >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI >> >> >> The archives were a bit vague on the subject of applying EFI to an >> MGB. Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's definitely something > >> I've always wanted to do... >> >> Thanks, >> Tyler Madia >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From nosek75 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 7 04:50:54 2003 From: nosek75 at hotmail.com (Maxime Nosek) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 01:50:54 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Message-ID: To: Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:52 AM Subject: Newbie looking for data concerning SGS VB020-4 (ignition coil driver) > Hi Everybody, > > I found this list on my eternal journey through the web... > > I would like to know if it's still possible to get some SGS VB020-4 ignition > coil drivers? > > If not, is there any substitute from SGS? > > I need those IC, to repair the TDD/Walbro-ECU of a motocycle! > > Any help is highly appreciated! > > Cheers, > > > Max > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From keith.wilson at telus.net Fri Feb 7 05:01:52 2003 From: keith.wilson at telus.net (gngrbrd_man) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 02:01:52 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Fw: Newbie looking for data concerning SGS VB020-4 Message-ID: Good luck. I've tried quite thoroughly to get my hands on some of the newer STMicro (ex-SGSThompson) VB series ignition driver. All I can get from any supplier, distributor, rep, etc, is Minimum order 1000 units, delivery 12-16 weeks. Really too bad, too as the VB027-VB029 appear to be really nice parts. Keith You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maxime Nosek" To: Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:00 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] Fw: Newbie looking for data concerning SGS VB020-4 (ignition coil driver) | | To: | Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:52 AM | Subject: Newbie looking for data concerning SGS VB020-4 (ignition coil | driver) | | | > Hi Everybody, | > | > I found this list on my eternal journey through the web... | > | > I would like to know if it's still possible to get some SGS VB020-4 | ignition | > coil drivers? | > | > If not, is there any substitute from SGS? | > | > I need those IC, to repair the TDD/Walbro-ECU of a motocycle! | > | > Any help is highly appreciated! | > | > Cheers, | > | > | > Max | > | | _______________________________________________ | Diy_efi mailing list | Diy_efi at diy-efi.org | http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Sid.Young at qml.com.au Fri Feb 7 05:12:53 2003 From: Sid.Young at qml.com.au (Sid.Young at qml.com.au) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 02:12:53 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Fw: Newbie looking for data concerning SGS VB020-4 Message-ID: Hi, I have been looking at the Motorola MC3334 Ignition Coil Driver and they list a suitable transistor for driving ignition coils, personnaly any decent N-Channel mosfet would do the job. Sid -----Original Message----- From: gngrbrd_man [mailto:keith.wilson at telus.net] Sent: Friday, 7 February 2003 3:19 PM To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Fw: Newbie looking for data concerning SGS VB020-4 (ignition coil driver) Good luck. I've tried quite thoroughly to get my hands on some of the newer STMicro (ex-SGSThompson) VB series ignition driver. All I can get from any supplier, distributor, rep, etc, is Minimum order 1000 units, delivery 12-16 weeks. Really too bad, too as the VB027-VB029 appear to be really nice parts. Keith You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maxime Nosek" To: Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:00 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] Fw: Newbie looking for data concerning SGS VB020-4 (ignition coil driver) | | To: | Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:52 AM | Subject: Newbie looking for data concerning SGS VB020-4 (ignition coil | driver) | | | > Hi Everybody, | > | > I found this list on my eternal journey through the web... | > | > I would like to know if it's still possible to get some SGS VB020-4 | ignition | > coil drivers? | > | > If not, is there any substitute from SGS? | > | > I need those IC, to repair the TDD/Walbro-ECU of a motocycle! | > | > Any help is highly appreciated! | > | > Cheers, | > | > | > Max | > | | _______________________________________________ | Diy_efi mailing list | Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jstricke at rwisp.com Fri Feb 7 05:15:58 2003 From: jstricke at rwisp.com (John Stricker) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 02:15:58 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: 2.5L engine in the Fiero is MAP and TB. John Stricker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Linder" To: "'List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk'" Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 7:26 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > A Pontiac Fiero or an S- series GM or Chevy pickup would be a good > starting point. Not sure if they are MAP or MAF. > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From alexis.pavlov at st.com Fri Feb 7 13:20:26 2003 From: alexis.pavlov at st.com (Alexei Pavlov) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 10:20:26 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] EFI on motorcycles Message-ID: joeld at ualberta.ca wrote: > > We sure have. Check out our website in my signature, if you have any more > questions, just give me a shout. > > Joel Day > C.S.C 2003 Team Leader > PH: 434 9294 > www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi On the web page you mention you plan to build a 2-stroke supercharged engine. Do you plan to use valves on both intake and exhaust sides ? Which direct injection parts do you plan to use ? Which ECU ? Alexis _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From joeld at ualberta.ca Fri Feb 7 15:35:18 2003 From: joeld at ualberta.ca (joeld) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 12:35:18 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] EFI on motorcycles Message-ID: We are using a typical 2-stroke valve system. All ports are onthe cylinder wall. we have a DTA controller that we are going to run the mitsi injectors with, We are going to use whatever else needed off the mitsi motor, being the fuel pump and so on. Joel Day C.S.C 2003 Team Leader PH: 434 9294 www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From nwester at eidnet.org Fri Feb 7 15:46:03 2003 From: nwester at eidnet.org (Programmer) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 12:46:03 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: Nope, not TBI...that's a PFI/CPI system with poppet valve injectors. Lyndon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Perry Harrington" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > I think a 1998 Chevy Astro 4.3 is TBI and MAF. > > We had one at work and I hooked the OBDII scanner to it. It had MAF and > a MAP sensor. I believe they are TBI, not MPI. > > --Perry > > On Thu, Feb 06, 2003 at 07:17:27PM -0700, Programmer wrote: > > TBI with a MAF ? Can't think of one... > > > > Lyndon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mark Linder" > > To: "'List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk'" > > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:26 PM > > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > > > > > > > > A Pontiac Fiero or an S- series GM or Chevy pickup would be a good > > > starting point. Not sure if they are MAP or MAF. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] > > > On Behalf Of Tyler Madia > > > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 5:22 PM > > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > > > > > > > I would be happy with a TBI setup if I could find a GM application with > > > a 4 cylinder TBI and MAS. I think I could adapt that pretty easily. > > > Anybody know of such a combination? > > > > > > Tyler > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:27 AM > > > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > > > > > > > If you mean A-series with siamese ports, this can be done. There are > > > even kits available if you have big $$. These all use a single injector, > > > TBI style. > > > > > > A home-brew 2 injector per port system is yet to be DIY'd although you > > > could pull the MPI system off a late model mini. However this is hightly > > > complex merely to meet emissions so of little use for the power hungry. > > > > > > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ext Tyler Madia [mailto:tmadia at uswest.net] > > > Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:30 AM > > > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > > Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > > > > > > > The archives were a bit vague on the subject of applying EFI to an MGB. > > > Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's definitely something I've > > > always wanted to do... > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Tyler Madia > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Diy_efi mailing list > > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Diy_efi mailing list > > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Diy_efi mailing list > > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > -- > Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc > perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ > > Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety > deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. > -- Benjamin Franklin > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From sravet at arm.com Fri Feb 7 17:40:50 2003 From: sravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 14:40:50 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] ADMIN: are you getting unsubscribed? Message-ID: There may be a problem with people being unsubscribed due to excessive bounces. If this started happening to you recently, and you know it's not due to your inbox filling up or something, then write me back off list at the address below. --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com ARM,Inc. www.arm.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From tmadia at uswest.net Sat Feb 8 03:06:10 2003 From: tmadia at uswest.net (Tyler Madia) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 00:06:10 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: So I'm guessing the problem with the siamesed intake ports on the MGB is the fact that even port injection is a batch type of injection? I could certainly physically fit two injectors on each intake but they would have to be fired sequentially? Is that the problem? Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:27 AM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI If you mean A-series with siamese ports, this can be done. There are even kits available if you have big $$. These all use a single injector, TBI style. A home-brew 2 injector per port system is yet to be DIY'd although you could pull the MPI system off a late model mini. However this is hightly complex merely to meet emissions so of little use for the power hungry. Bill -----Original Message----- From: ext Tyler Madia [mailto:tmadia at uswest.net] Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:30 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI The archives were a bit vague on the subject of applying EFI to an MGB. Did anyone succeed with this endeavor? It's definitely something I've always wanted to do... Thanks, Tyler Madia _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From WEG1192 at aol.com Sat Feb 8 03:26:32 2003 From: WEG1192 at aol.com (WEG1192 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 00:26:32 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: In a message dated 2/7/03 10:03:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, tmadia at uswest.net writes: > So I'm guessing the problem with the siamesed intake ports on the MGB is the > fact that even port injection is a batch type of injection? I could > certainly physically fit two injectors on each intake but they would have to > be fired sequentially? Is that the problem? > > Tyler There is one possibility that might work with your engine. There was a guy on the tunercat list that is running port injectors off a 16197427 TBI PCM. This is not batch fire but alternate fire. So what you would do is wire two port injectors, one per injector driver. This PCM has two injector drivers. The injectors would alternately fire once in each siamese port. Hopefully, this would provide fuel to only one cylinder at a time. Of course, this depends on the firing order of the engine. You will have to put some more thought into this though, since its late at night and I can't. JW _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From tmadia at uswest.net Sat Feb 8 03:39:58 2003 From: tmadia at uswest.net (Tyler Madia) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 00:39:58 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: Unfortunately the firing order is 1-3-4-2 so each injector would have to fire twice then switch. Aargh! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > In a message dated 2/7/03 10:03:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, > tmadia at uswest.net writes: > > > So I'm guessing the problem with the siamesed intake ports on the MGB is the > > fact that even port injection is a batch type of injection? I could > > certainly physically fit two injectors on each intake but they would have > to > > be fired sequentially? Is that the problem? > > > > Tyler > > There is one possibility that might work with your engine. There was a guy on > the tunercat list that is running port injectors off a 16197427 TBI PCM. This > is not batch fire but alternate fire. So what you would do is wire two port > injectors, one per injector driver. This PCM has two injector drivers. The > injectors would alternately fire once in each siamese port. Hopefully, this > would provide fuel to only one cylinder at a time. Of course, this depends on > the firing order of the engine. You will have to put some more thought into > this though, since its late at night and I can't. > > JW > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From WEG1192 at aol.com Sat Feb 8 04:22:50 2003 From: WEG1192 at aol.com (WEG1192 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 01:22:50 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: In a message dated 2/7/03 10:36:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, tmadia at uswest.net writes: > Unfortunately the firing order is 1-3-4-2 so each injector would have to > fire twice then switch. Aargh! > Yep, thats a problem. cylinder 4 would get skipped over and cylinder 3 would get two shots of fuel. What about reprogramming a 7747 TBI ECM with 4 cylinders and then wiring a single TBI injector into both injector drivers? I just checked and there is a 4 cylinder setting in the 7747 binary. This is something I have wanted to try but lacked a 4 cylinder to try it on. Might take some heavy duty tweaking of the binary though. JW _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jean_belanger at sympatico.ca Sat Feb 8 04:51:30 2003 From: jean_belanger at sympatico.ca (Jean Belanger) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 01:51:30 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: You might want to have a look at Marcel Chichak's site to get an idea of the problems with port injecting a siamese-port engine. http://www.planet.eon.net/%7Echichm/efi/siamese.htm You can also have a look at his attempt to do it on an a-series engine: http://www.planet.eon.net/~chichm/efi/efi.htm Basically the problem is that you need accurate injection timing and fast and big enough injectors to be able to complete the injection while the intake valve of cylinders 1 and 4 are open otherwise the fuel will go in cylinders 2 and 3. It may not be clear but you'll get it if you read Marcel's page. Hope that helps, Jean -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of WEG1192 at aol.com Sent: February 7, 2003 11:14 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI In a message dated 2/7/03 10:36:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, tmadia at uswest.net writes: > Unfortunately the firing order is 1-3-4-2 so each injector would have to > fire twice then switch. Aargh! > Yep, thats a problem. cylinder 4 would get skipped over and cylinder 3 would get two shots of fuel. What about reprogramming a 7747 TBI ECM with 4 cylinders and then wiring a single TBI injector into both injector drivers? I just checked and there is a 4 cylinder setting in the 7747 binary. This is something I have wanted to try but lacked a 4 cylinder to try it on. Might take some heavy duty tweaking of the binary though. JW _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Djfreggens at aol.com Sat Feb 8 05:48:13 2003 From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 02:48:13 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: --===============93708177246899904== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_18d.15e1ffd3.2b75f2e4_boundary" --part1_18d.15e1ffd3.2b75f2e4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i higly sugest looking at a TBI setup. you could in fact just run batch fire. just make sure the fueling is asyncrhonos this will help alleviate the issue with one cylinder getting more fuel then another. id would sgest this a 1227747 runing a TBI or a similar setup like a 1227749 running a TBI. both ecms can handle the P/H loads of the TBI so your in good shape there. --part1_18d.15e1ffd3.2b75f2e4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i higly sugest looking at a TBI setup. you could in fa= ct just run batch fire. just make sure the fueling is asyncrhonos this will=20= help alleviate the issue with one cylinder getting more fuel then another. i= d would sgest this

a 1227747 runing a TBI or a similar setup like a 1227749 running a TB= I. both ecms can handle the P/H loads of the TBI so your in good shape there= . --part1_18d.15e1ffd3.2b75f2e4_boundary-- --===============93708177246899904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============93708177246899904==-- From tmadia at uswest.net Sat Feb 8 06:33:45 2003 From: tmadia at uswest.net (Tyler Madia) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 03:33:45 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: Wow! Great links, thanks! Sounds like a port injection setup just isn't going to happen anytime soon. I'd be more than happy with a TBI setup but I'm not sure how to go about it. Could I just take, say, a Fiero TBI setup off a 2.5 liter and either lower the pressure or use smaller injectors to match my 2 liters? Or will I have to find a MAF system? Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean Belanger" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:45 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > You might want to have a look at Marcel Chichak's site to get an idea of the > problems with port injecting a siamese-port engine. > http://www.planet.eon.net/%7Echichm/efi/siamese.htm > > You can also have a look at his attempt to do it on an a-series engine: > http://www.planet.eon.net/~chichm/efi/efi.htm > > Basically the problem is that you need accurate injection timing and fast > and big enough injectors to be able to complete the injection while the > intake valve of cylinders 1 and 4 are open otherwise the fuel will go in > cylinders 2 and 3. It may not be clear but you'll get it if you read > Marcel's page. > > Hope that helps, > Jean > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of WEG1192 at aol.com > Sent: February 7, 2003 11:14 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > > In a message dated 2/7/03 10:36:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, > tmadia at uswest.net writes: > > > Unfortunately the firing order is 1-3-4-2 so each injector would have to > > fire twice then switch. Aargh! > > > > Yep, thats a problem. cylinder 4 would get skipped over and cylinder 3 would > get two shots of fuel. > > What about reprogramming a 7747 TBI ECM with 4 cylinders and then wiring a > single TBI injector into both injector drivers? I just checked and there is > a > 4 cylinder setting in the 7747 binary. This is something I have wanted to > try > but lacked a 4 cylinder to try it on. Might take some heavy duty tweaking of > the binary though. > > JW > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bill at shurvinton.fsworld.co.uk Sat Feb 8 11:24:40 2003 From: bill at shurvinton.fsworld.co.uk (Bill SHURVINTON) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 08:24:40 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: Either a single injector TBI setup or a megasquirt would do fine for that. For mix and match apps I tend to favour MAP systems, but thats as much me as any techical reasons. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tyler Madia" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:28 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > Wow! Great links, thanks! Sounds like a port injection setup just isn't > going to happen anytime soon. I'd be more than happy with a TBI setup but > I'm not sure how to go about it. Could I just take, say, a Fiero TBI setup > off a 2.5 liter and either lower the pressure or use smaller injectors to > match my 2 liters? Or will I have to find a MAF system? > > Tyler > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From marko.cosic at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 8 13:14:43 2003 From: marko.cosic at ntlworld.com (MarkoNTL) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 10:14:43 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: Why are we trying to convert a a B-Series to Efi? (ignore the following if the answer is 'for the hell of it!) The B-Series engine was developed into the O-Series, which was then revised for front-wheel drive and Efi to the "O2" Series, then further developed to the M-Series and finally the T-Series. The T-Series is a 2 litre, iron block/alloy head, twin OHC, 4 valve per cylinder multipoint Efi/electronic ignition etc, with cat convertor (whether emissions rules come in to play where you are I don't know), putting out 136bhp in naturally aspirated form and 200bhp in turbo form. (The former can be taken to ~180bhp before things start getting silly money, and the turbo so far has been taken to 420bhp, but definitely in the silly-money territory... www.an-racing.co.uk) The engine mountings are the same as the B-Series. Its not wholly bolt-in but is very do-able, and similar size/weight to the B-Series. In the UK there are several B to O/M/T Series MGB conversions around. http://www.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgoc&p=emg/000802.htm on MGBs and http://homepage.ntlworld.com/marko.cosic on general T-Series to RWD gearbox info. (my interest being stuffing one into a Land-Rover) Is this of any interest or have I set off on an irrelevant tangent again... Marko _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From tmadia at uswest.net Sat Feb 8 17:20:53 2003 From: tmadia at uswest.net (Tyler Madia) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 14:20:53 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: That's a very good question and one I, and most people with older cars, struggle with. To upgrade the engine or not. What I generally like is the styling, simplicity, and cost of the MGs but the powertrain is terribly inadequate by todays standards. As much fun as the twin SUs are to tinker with on the weekends, the wife hates the manual choke and other assorted quirks of the carbs. I'm not looking to make a corvette beater or anything but it would be nice to get in turn the key and go like a modern car. The mileage benefits and engine longevity are also attractive. Of course I just can't leave anything well enough alone either.... Yeah, a nice rover V8 does very nicely in an MGB. It even weight 14 pounds less than the 4 cylinder, but alas I don't have $7500 sitting around burning a hole in my pocket ;-) Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "MarkoNTL" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 6:08 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > Why are we trying to convert a a B-Series to Efi? (ignore the following if > the answer is 'for the hell of it!) > > The B-Series engine was developed into the O-Series, which was then revised > for front-wheel drive and Efi to the "O2" Series, then further developed to > the M-Series and finally the T-Series. The T-Series is a 2 litre, iron > block/alloy head, twin OHC, 4 valve per cylinder multipoint Efi/electronic > ignition etc, with cat convertor (whether emissions rules come in to play > where you are I don't know), putting out 136bhp in naturally aspirated form > and 200bhp in turbo form. (The former can be taken to ~180bhp before things > start getting silly money, and the turbo so far has been taken to 420bhp, > but definitely in the silly-money territory... www.an-racing.co.uk) > > The engine mountings are the same as the B-Series. Its not wholly bolt-in > but is very do-able, and similar size/weight to the B-Series. In the UK > there are several B to O/M/T Series MGB conversions around. > > http://www.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgoc&p=emg/000802.htm > on MGBs and > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/marko.cosic > on general T-Series to RWD gearbox info. (my interest being stuffing one > into a Land-Rover) > > Is this of any interest or have I set off on an irrelevant tangent again... > > Marko > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From atkin11j at yahoo.com Sat Feb 8 19:21:26 2003 From: atkin11j at yahoo.com (Derek Atkin) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 16:21:26 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] FI for MGB Message-ID: I would try going with a Bosch system off an early BMW 3 series with a 4 cylinder engine. 320i, 318i They would all make good donors, being the earlier engines they are not a finicky as later model FI. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From marko.cosic at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 8 19:31:20 2003 From: marko.cosic at ntlworld.com (MarkoNTL) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 16:31:20 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: Tyler Madia wrote: > That's a very good question and one I, and most people with older > cars, struggle with. To upgrade the engine or not. What I generally > like is the styling, simplicity, and cost of the MGs but the > powertrain is terribly inadequate by todays standards. As much fun > as the twin SUs are to tinker with on the weekends, the wife hates > the manual choke and other assorted quirks of the carbs. I'm not > looking to make a corvette beater or anything but it would be nice to > get in turn the key and go like a modern car. The mileage benefits > and engine longevity are also attractive. Of course I just can't > leave anything well enough alone either.... > > Yeah, a nice rover V8 does very nicely in an MGB. It even weight 14 > pounds less than the 4 cylinder, but alas I don't have $7500 sitting > around burning a hole in my pocket ;-) Mmmmm, yes, but I think you miss some of the features of an M or T Series conversion. They're a development fo the B-Series, they're the same size, and they do make MGBs a jump in, turn key, drive away modern car. Talking in UK terms, the whole donor car with good engine - ?250. RWD sump/oil pickup/flywheel/starter - ?40. New exhaust system - ?200. Cut and reweld intake plenum - ?50. Head gasket - ?30. Water-pump - ?30. Cambelt ?20. Plugs ?10. Dissy cap ?10. Rotor arm ?10. Leads ?20. Oil ?20. Oil Filter ?5. Coolant ?5. Air filter ?20. Injectors clean ?20. Miscellaneous wiring/plumbing/decoke etc bits - ?50 Total cost ~?600 for buying and putting the engine in; ?200 for giving it a decoke and all the consumables its ever likely to need. Or in U$ terms about $1300, plus whatever it costs to ship 250kgs from UK to US. Heck, you can buy a BRAND NEW crated RWD engine for only ?1400 ($2300), which would then costs no mroe than ?600 ($1000) to fit. I wouldn't go the turbo route myself, 136bhp (probably 150 if you ported the head lightly, and ran it tuned 'properly' (not for emissions!) on a megasquirt and with no cat convertor) will be more than enough to "update" the MGB and give the auto-choke, good driveability, good fuel economy/gas mileage. (in the origional car, 1400kgs worth, and running tuned for the cat convertor, it'll do 33 miles to the UK gallon on 75-80mph cruising, 35mpg at 65-70mph cruising, 27-28mpg on local trips. With the MGB being that bit lighter and a megasquirt allowing that much more efficient and economical tuning I'd expect 40mpg from an MGB cruising, and no less than 25mpg even when "giving it death") A further advantage of the M or T series conversion over and above a Rover/Buick 215ci V8 is rev-range. Both my Land-Rover and your MGB have fairly low-revving engines. Pop in an engine that puts out 130lbft of torque, but uses more revs to generate power, as opposed to an engine that revs low but puts out 200+lbft of torque to get the power, and the gearbox/back axle won't disintegrate under the strain. My interest is to go from 80hp SAE to 135hp DIN, about 15mpg to 23mpg, loose the manual choke and burn-o-tronic points etc in a country where fuel is more expensive than water... ;-) Marko _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From tmadia at uswest.net Sat Feb 8 20:07:17 2003 From: tmadia at uswest.net (Tyler Madia) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 17:07:17 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: Stop it, you're making me salivate! Sounds like used car bits a much more reasonably priced in the UK. I've seriously considered a MPFI 2.8 liter V6 conversion and there are actually kits to do it but I just haven't been able to pull the trigger. I guess I just don't want to "Chevyise" my MG. Plus I have 9 MGs of various models and if I could FI one it would apply to all of them. Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "MarkoNTL" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI > > Mmmmm, yes, but I think you miss some of the features of an M or T Series > conversion. They're a development fo the B-Series, they're the same size, > and they do make MGBs a jump in, turn key, drive away modern car. > > Talking in UK terms, the whole donor car with good engine - ?250. RWD > sump/oil pickup/flywheel/starter - ?40. New exhaust system - ?200. Cut and > reweld intake plenum - ?50. > > Head gasket - ?30. Water-pump - ?30. Cambelt ?20. Plugs ?10. Dissy cap ?10. > Rotor arm ?10. Leads ?20. Oil ?20. Oil Filter ?5. Coolant ?5. Air filter > ?20. Injectors clean ?20. > > Miscellaneous wiring/plumbing/decoke etc bits - ?50 > > Total cost ~?600 for buying and putting the engine in; ?200 for giving it a > decoke and all the consumables its ever likely to need. Or in U$ terms about > $1300, plus whatever it costs to ship 250kgs from UK to US. Heck, you can > buy a BRAND NEW crated RWD engine for only ?1400 ($2300), which would then > costs no mroe than ?600 ($1000) to fit. > > I wouldn't go the turbo route myself, 136bhp (probably 150 if you ported the > head lightly, and ran it tuned 'properly' (not for emissions!) on a > megasquirt and with no cat convertor) will be more than enough to "update" > the MGB and give the auto-choke, good driveability, good fuel economy/gas > mileage. (in the origional car, 1400kgs worth, and running tuned for the cat > convertor, it'll do 33 miles to the UK gallon on 75-80mph cruising, 35mpg at > 65-70mph cruising, 27-28mpg on local trips. With the MGB being that bit > lighter and a megasquirt allowing that much more efficient and economical > tuning I'd expect 40mpg from an MGB cruising, and no less than 25mpg even > when "giving it death") > > A further advantage of the M or T series conversion over and above a > Rover/Buick 215ci V8 is rev-range. Both my Land-Rover and your MGB have > fairly low-revving engines. Pop in an engine that puts out 130lbft of > torque, but uses more revs to generate power, as opposed to an engine that > revs low but puts out 200+lbft of torque to get the power, and the > gearbox/back axle won't disintegrate under the strain. > > My interest is to go from 80hp SAE to 135hp DIN, about 15mpg to 23mpg, loose > the manual choke and burn-o-tronic points etc in a country where fuel is > more expensive than water... ;-) > > Marko > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Sean.Richards at diageo.com Sat Feb 8 20:30:53 2003 From: Sean.Richards at diageo.com (Richards, Sean) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 17:30:53 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: has anyone here heard or know about any mods for the 18t engine's injectors ________________________________________________________________________ This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the Diageo Servicedesk on +44 (0) 131 319 6000 This footnote also confirms that this email has been scanned for all viruses by the Messagelabs SkyScan service. http://www.diageo.com ________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 8 20:38:18 2003 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 17:38:18 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: --- "Richards, Sean" wrote: > has anyone here heard or know about any mods for the > 18t engine's injectors The Yak 18T? As far as I know, it has a supercharged carburetor on its radial engine. ;) Or did you mean the VW/Audi 1.8T? Changing the injectors alone won't give more horsepower, I shouldn't think. What were you after? ===== | Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From pedward at apsoft.com Sat Feb 8 20:59:16 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 17:59:16 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: Injectors, no. Although there is a gizmo called the Split Second BCS. It's a boost controller thingy for the VW 1.8t. I happen to have one sitting here (brand new) that I bought to figure out how it worked. I'd be willing to sell it for $150 obo. That's dealer cost BTW. You get a 35HP and 43lb/ft increase with it. --Perry On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 08:24:19PM -0000, Richards, Sean wrote: > has anyone here heard or know about any mods for the 18t engine's injectors -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 8 21:06:05 2003 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 18:06:05 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: --- Perry Harrington wrote: > there is a gizmo called the Split Second BCS. It's > a boost controller thingy for the VW 1.8t. I happen > to have one sitting here (brand new) that I bought > to figure out how it worked. Gonna share, or is that proprietary? ;) ===== | Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bill at shurvinton.fsworld.co.uk Sat Feb 8 21:15:45 2003 From: bill at shurvinton.fsworld.co.uk (Bill SHURVINTON) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 18:15:45 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: If you want a rover 3.5 contact me off list. I am arranging a pile of 215 parts to be shipped to Seattle as I have scored some cheap shipping. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tyler Madia" > > Yeah, a nice rover V8 does very nicely in an MGB. It even weight 14 pounds > less than the 4 cylinder, but alas I don't have $7500 sitting around burning > a hole in my pocket ;-) > > Tyler > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From marko.cosic at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 8 21:17:33 2003 From: marko.cosic at ntlworld.com (MarkoNTL) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 18:17:33 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] MGB EFI Message-ID: Tyler Madia wrote: > Stop it, you're making me salivate! Sorry. :) > Sounds like used car bits a much more reasonably priced in the UK. 8-15 year old cars are mostly worthless, in the near future it looks likely people will be charged for their disposal. > I've seriously considered a MPFI 2.8 liter V6 conversion and there > are actually kits to do it but I just haven't been able to pull the > trigger. I guess I just don't want to "Chevyise" my MG. All these evil Americans putting US engines into MGs and Jaguars, sacrelidge! ;-) > Plus I have > 9 MGs of various models and if I could FI one it would apply to all > of them. True! Good luck with the project! Marko _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From pedward at apsoft.com Sun Feb 9 00:24:31 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 21:24:31 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: > > Gonna share, or is that proprietary? ;) > | Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | Well, that's a good question. I spent 150 bucks on it, just to look at it's innards. I don't even have a car to put it on! I told the dealer I bought it from that I'd give him a copy of the information I learned in exchange for selling it to me at cost. He isn't a technical type beyond his immediate need to make money. I was rather disappointed at his response. He was merely looking for another company to make the same thing cheaper and smaller for him so he'd have a better margin. As it goes, these things are $250 IIRC. It's been a while, so I assume that several companies have scraped the design. The information is from when I first instrumented the device. Since then, I understand a lot of why certain design decisions were made. Suffice to say that it seems to be a pretty complete and clever method. I think a functional duplicate could easily be made with less parts and lower cost by using an MCU instead of discrete analog. I don't have a schematic or other information on the device. This information came from physical observation and instrumentation of input vs output. --Perry Split Second BCS boost controller information. Unit has 6 hookup wires and 1 jumper wire. Pinout and wire color is: ECU pin 35 Yellow/Blue stripe TPS wiper connection ECU pin 98 White/Black stripe +5v (MAP sensor power) ECU pin 101a Gray/Blue stripe MAP sensor scaled output ECU pin 101b Gray MAP sensor input ECU pin 104 Yellow/White stripe Wastegate actuator solenoid GND return ECU pin 108 Brown GND Observable parts list: LM293 Dual comparator LMC6484 Quad high CMRR opamp LM3914 Bar/Dot mode analog display driver IRF530N HexFET 10k pot Desired boost control 100ohm 1Watt resistor in series with FET and wastegate solenoid TPS input is used to detect WOT. It appears that the BCS interprets WOT as 3.0v on the TPS input. The unit will not control the wastegate below WOT. This is presumably for emissions compliance if CARB certification is desired. Smog laws do not apply at WOT. The MAP input is used for controlling the wastegate circuit and LED bar graph. The bar graph output is tied to the MAP input. Above 3.6v the MAP output to ECU is scaled non-linearly. It is hypothesized that the MAP input is never intended to exceed 3.6v. At 3.6v input the boost gauge reads 14.5 psi. This is not in line with known information about conventional 2 bar MAP sensors. Perhaps the VW sensor is equivelent to the MOT sensor and is a 2.5bar. Assuming a linear response to pressure a 2bar sensor would output ~5v at 2bar (14.5 psi). The MOT sensor output for 2bar would be 3.84v. This is close enough to the observed values to lead me to believe it is a 2.5bar. The 2.5bar sensor can read up to 21.81psi (150kpa positive pressure). The unit controls the wastegate actuator in parallel with the stock computer. A hexFET is used with a 100ohm 1watt resistor to actuate the wastegate with 5vdc. The wastegate is actuated low; the ground is modulated to control the amount of bypass. The unit appears to have a wastegate adjustment range of 48% duty cycle to 90% duty cycle. The solenoid is actuated at approximately 50-60hz, this is in line with other solenoid actuators such as the Ford ISV. The controller has 2 inputs for controlling the wastegate. The desired boost and actual. There appears to be a small amout of lead that the desired boost (POT) can induce in the wastegate control. When the unit requests more boost than current, the wastegate duty is reduced to 50%, allowing approximately half vacuum to the wastegate. It is unknown whether the wastegate is linear with application of vacuum. As the boost nears the desired value the unit runs in a closed loop to control the value. The unit will swing betweent 50% and 90% duty to compensate. In actual use the duty would probably stay within a fairly small variance around 68% to 74% duty. When the amount of boost desired is less than current, the wastegate duty is increased to 90%. When the value drops down to the desired value the unit runs in closed loop. At the lowest end of the spectrum the unit excercises no control over the wastegate, presumably allowing the stock computer to control it. The manufacturer claims the lower adjustment limit is 6psi, which is the stock computer level. The unit has the ability to drive the boost lower, but that would require more circuitry. The boost gauge uses an LM3914 in application note form. The reference voltage is 1.25v, thus the 14.5psi LED is lit at max. The range is .04v to 1.25v. 1.25v is reachead at a MAP sensor value of 3.63v. The other chips in the unit are an LM293, presumably for the wastegate oscillator and duty control, and an LMC6484, a quad low input bias current opamp. The datasheet for the LMC6484 describes it as a high input range amplifier. Upon observation of the board, the chip is not being used as intended by the manufacturer. There are no guard tracks around the inputs. It is thus hypothesized that the chip is merely being used for it's near rail-to-rail output so they don't need a power supply circuit. The opamp is clearly the analog comparator which controls wastegate duty cycle based on the differential inputs of the boost pot and the map sensor. -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From predatordiyefi at hotmail.com Sun Feb 9 01:45:47 2003 From: predatordiyefi at hotmail.com (pr asdf) Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2003 22:45:47 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Spark timing above 1 bar Message-ID: I have a '94 corvette with an lt1 engine I am planning on turboing. The only problem is that I cannot use a higher than 1 bar map sensor, or the computer thinks it is at a high altitude on start up, so i was wondering if anyone knew of a way to use a simple microcontroller with a look up table hooked up to a 3 bar map sensor and the crank angle sensor to delay the spark timing above 1 bar, by delaying the signal sent to the coil by a certain number of milli seconds to create a spark retard. I would like to retain the use of the stock computers timing tables below 1 bar, and just be able to delay it in the high boost regions. Does any one have any ideas or suggestions? thanks Judson Hartley _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From charlieg at innet.com Mon Feb 10 02:23:24 2003 From: charlieg at innet.com (Charlie G.) Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 23:23:24 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Autronic software Message-ID: Hi If anyone on this list has Autronic 327auto.zip or 327man.zip running under Windows XP, I would appreciate a blow by blow of how this is done. I have tried several PIF files but no luck. Any help would be appreciated. If this is too far off topic please reply off list. Charlie G. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From saba_apollo at hotmail.com Mon Feb 10 03:52:45 2003 From: saba_apollo at hotmail.com (Rick Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 00:52:45 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: I know someone on this list as either the SAE J1850 standard or the SAE HS-3000 book. I'd like to implement the J1850 PWM protocol that Ford uses, but I can't find the protocol specs online, the books are expensive, and the custom chips are closed-source. Would someone scan the info out of their book(s) and email them to me? It would be greatly appreciated! -Rick _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From pedward at apsoft.com Mon Feb 10 04:46:33 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 01:46:33 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Rick, Your approach at asking for information is a *little* coarse. I don't have any of the SAE books, but I can recommend a good book that has all of the Ford diag codes listed and a little bit of info. My suggestions are these: Get "Ford Tuning" by Ivan J. Kotzig. He's the founder of Diablosport. The book is a little lite on tech stuff, but it does have little bits of jewels. On page 108 they describe some of the logical protocol used for the PWM. They also describe the PWM encoding itself. This is a good starting point and reference. My next suggestion is to by an AutoXray and tap into the Data+ line for the PWM. Use a logic analyzer or a circuit of your own design to sniff the data off the bus. You should be able to get a fairly complete working example using this method. The rest is up to you. There is a Yahoo group for an open OBDII comm interface, but it implements the SAE proto and not the PWM. --Perry On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 07:42:58PM -0800, Rick Richard wrote: > I know someone on this list as either the SAE J1850 standard or the SAE > HS-3000 book. I'd like to implement the J1850 PWM protocol that Ford uses, > but I can't find the protocol specs online, the books are expensive, and the > custom chips are closed-source. > > Would someone scan the info out of their book(s) and email them to me? > It would be greatly appreciated! > -Rick -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Mon Feb 10 04:56:06 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 01:56:06 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Presumptive, or mildy impertinent I would have thought ;-) We aint a free library service, some of us have real jobs where people pay $200 an hour (on those rare occasions :) rgds mike At 08:42 PM 9/2/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Rick, > >Your approach at asking for information is a *little* coarse. I don't have >any of the SAE books, but I can recommend a good book that has all of the >Ford diag codes listed and a little bit of info. > >My suggestions are these: > >Get "Ford Tuning" by Ivan J. Kotzig. He's the founder of Diablosport. The >book is a little lite on tech stuff, but it does have little bits of jewels. >On page 108 they describe some of the logical protocol used for the PWM. They >also describe the PWM encoding itself. This is a good starting point and >reference. > >My next suggestion is to by an AutoXray and tap into the Data+ line for the PWM. >Use a logic analyzer or a circuit of your own design to sniff the data off >the bus. You should be able to get a fairly complete working example using >this method. > >The rest is up to you. There is a Yahoo group for an open OBDII comm interface, >but it implements the SAE proto and not the PWM. > >--Perry > >On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 07:42:58PM -0800, Rick Richard wrote: >> I know someone on this list as either the SAE J1850 standard or the SAE >> HS-3000 book. I'd like to implement the J1850 PWM protocol that Ford uses, >> but I can't find the protocol specs online, the books are expensive, and the >> custom chips are closed-source. >> >> Would someone scan the info out of their book(s) and email them to me? >> It would be greatly appreciated! >> -Rick > >-- >Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc >perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ > >Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety >deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. > -- Benjamin Franklin > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From raymond at iwantperformance.net Mon Feb 10 05:07:13 2003 From: raymond at iwantperformance.net (Raymond Brantley) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 02:07:13 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Ack ! Check out the EEC-IV (does EEC-V too) mailing list you'll get lots more info and better recopies too :) Thanks, Raymond -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Perry Harrington Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 10:42 PM To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request My suggestions are these: Get "Ford Tuning" by Ivan J. Kotzig. He's the founder of Diablosport. The book is a little lite on tech stuff, but it does have little bits of jewels. On page 108 they describe some of the logical protocol used for the PWM. They also describe the PWM encoding itself. This is a good starting point and reference. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From raymond at iwantperformance.net Mon Feb 10 05:15:48 2003 From: raymond at iwantperformance.net (Raymond Brantley) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 02:15:48 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Damn spell checker, should be recipes............ Thanks, Raymond -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Raymond Brantley Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 11:02 PM To: 'List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk' Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Ack ! Check out the EEC-IV (does EEC-V too) mailing list you'll get lots more info and better recopies too :) Thanks, Raymond -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Perry Harrington Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 10:42 PM To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request My suggestions are these: Get "Ford Tuning" by Ivan J. Kotzig. He's the founder of Diablosport. The book is a little lite on tech stuff, but it does have little bits of jewels. On page 108 they describe some of the logical protocol used for the PWM. They also describe the PWM encoding itself. This is a good starting point and reference. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From saba_apollo at hotmail.com Mon Feb 10 06:22:03 2003 From: saba_apollo at hotmail.com (Rick Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:22:03 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: I don't understand what the deal is. I asked, I did not demand. I thought the purpose of a mailing list like this was to share information and resources. Perhaps you think it is presumptious of me to assume that someone here has this information? I don't think so, because I've read archives of this list where people mention owning the SAE book with the protocol information in it. I don't understand the relevance of "having a real job." If you have the book, but don't have the time to share the info from it, then I understand. If someone has this info and is willing to share it, however, I'd rather do it that way than needlessly spend $80+ on a book that I would rather not buy. All I want to do is make an open source PIC program to convert the J1850 PWM to a serial interface for use with one of the many scantool software packages out there. VPW Is very well documented but few people seem to care about the ford PWM and the DIY kits that are out there for it are closed-source. From: Mike >Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request >Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:49:45 > >Presumptive, or mildy impertinent I would have thought ;-) > >We aint a free library service, some of us have real jobs where >people pay $200 an hour (on those rare occasions :) > >rgds > >mike > > >At 08:42 PM 9/2/2003 -0800, you wrote: > >Rick, > > > >Your approach at asking for information is a *little* coarse. I don't >have > >any of the SAE books, but I can recommend a good book that has all of the > >Ford diag codes listed and a little bit of info. > > > >My suggestions are these: > > > >Get "Ford Tuning" by Ivan J. Kotzig. He's the founder of Diablosport. >The > >book is a little lite on tech stuff, but it does have little bits of >jewels. > >On page 108 they describe some of the logical protocol used for the PWM. >They > >also describe the PWM encoding itself. This is a good starting point and > >reference. > > > >My next suggestion is to by an AutoXray and tap into the Data+ line for >the PWM. > >Use a logic analyzer or a circuit of your own design to sniff the data >off > >the bus. You should be able to get a fairly complete working example >using > >this method. > > > >The rest is up to you. There is a Yahoo group for an open OBDII comm >interface, > >but it implements the SAE proto and not the PWM. > > > >--Perry > > > >On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 07:42:58PM -0800, Rick Richard wrote: > >> I know someone on this list as either the SAE J1850 standard or the SAE > >> HS-3000 book. I'd like to implement the J1850 PWM protocol that Ford >uses, > >> but I can't find the protocol specs online, the books are expensive, >and >the > >> custom chips are closed-source. > >> > >> Would someone scan the info out of their book(s) and email them to me? > >> It would be greatly appreciated! > >> -Rick > > > >-- > >Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc > >perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ > > > >Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary >safety > >deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with >either. > > -- Benjamin Franklin > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Diy_efi mailing list > >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Mon Feb 10 06:36:31 2003 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:36:31 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: --- Rick Richard wrote: > If someone has this info and is willing to share it, > however, I'd rather do it that way than needlessly > spend $80+ on a book that I would rather not buy. I don't follow you here. You're not buying paper and ink with a book; you're buying information. You want the information. If the information costs $80, you ask yourself if it is worth $80 to you or not. If it's not, or if you can't afford $80, then you have to come up with an alternate method of obtaining the information (if it is). You can choose to learn enough to have written the book yourself, or you can ask someone who knows and will share, or you can break the law by violating copyright laws. There are a variety of choice, with a variety of possible consequences and ethical issues. Frankly, if the market won't bear the cost of the book, then the market will find ways to do without it, in most cases. I don't understand the idea of expecting things for free. How do you think the people who discovered the principles and details of operation of the technology we use today would have survived to create it unless someone compensated them for doing the work? I don't rue someone asking for answers or ideas (I do it myself all the time). However, if the answers you want are contained in a book, and you ask very frankly for the answers for free, but disparage spending money on the book, that says more about your expectations than about what the information is worth to you. > few people seem to care about the ford PWM and the > DIY kits that are out there for it are closed-source. Presumably, they worked hard to create the product, and with a limited market, they're not going to give away their sales. I don't blame them much, either. ===== | Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From saba_apollo at hotmail.com Mon Feb 10 08:25:30 2003 From: saba_apollo at hotmail.com (Rick Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 05:25:30 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: From: Adam Wade >You want the information. If the information costs >$80, you ask yourself if it is worth $80 to you or >not. If it's not, or if you can't afford $80, then >you have to come up with an alternate method of >obtaining the information (if it is). I agree with you there, and obviously I'm seeking the least expensive method of obtaining this information. Similarly, I prefer using dictionary.com to purchasing a new text dictionary because it is faster, cheapter, and can be updated without requiring the purchase of a new book. >You can choose to learn enough to have written the >book yourself, or you can ask someone who knows and >will share, or you can break the law by violating >copyright laws. >There are a variety of choice, with a variety of >possible consequences and ethical issues. I only suggested copying because it is much less tedious than typing out technobabble in an email. The concept I was envisioning was more like loaning a book to a friend, but I see your point about the copyright issue. I don't want a specific book, or an entire book, or anything like that. They won't let you check out the reference books at the library, but you can photocopy a couple pages for your report. Perhaps that helps to clarify my ethical standpoint on this one. I see how the suggestion could offend some people, however, so I apologize for that. >I don't understand the idea of expecting things for >free. How do you think the people who discovered the >principles and details of operation of the technology >we use today would have survived to create it unless >someone compensated them for doing the work? Maybe we should charge each other for this conversation, then? Or pay taxes for the air we breathe? I agree that people who do good work should get fairly compensated for it, but fairness is very subjective. If the book were $20 new or used, I'd buy it. The latest edition, however, lists for $110 and isn't popular in the used market. The older edition is around $80. That's too much for me and my DIY project. I'm within my right to opt not to purchase the book and seek the information elsewhere, which is what I'm trying to do. You're within your right to detest me for it. I have always felt that information should be free. It can be used to manufacture products for profit, which can then compensate inventors. The patent system works this way. You can search and view patents for free at www.uspto.gov, but the law protects the inventor's interest in the idea. You mentioned that when I buy a book, I'm not buying paper and ink, but information. That's only true sometimes. There's a lot of information distributed for free in electronic form, but you can choose to purchase it verbatim as a hard copy. >I don't rue someone asking for answers or ideas (I do >it myself all the time). However, if the answers you >want are contained in a book, and you ask very frankly >for the answers for free, but disparage spending money >on the book, that says more about your expectations >than about what the information is worth to you. The answers to most of our questions are contained in a book somewhere. As I stated before, I'm not actually asking for specific pages out of a specific book, although I may have unintentionally come off that way. I just know of two sources for the information I'm looking for, and if someone preferred to just scan a page rather than type up an email that would work just as well. Many people may reject that on ethical grounds, and I respect that objection. I hope that has been made clear. >Presumably, they worked hard to create the product, >and with a limited market, they're not going to give >away their sales. I don't blame them much, either. I have no objection to the fact that someone decided to create a product and protect their interest in it. The J1850 protocol is an industry standard, however. I don't want someone's proprietary software, I just want the elusive PWM protocol specifications so I can develop my own software and share it. I realize that a couple of cheap products exist that have the functionality I desire, but I don't like not knowing how they work and I don't necessarily like the way the product is implemented. I can't change it if it is closed-source. I'm sure other DIYers will understand that sentiment. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Mon Feb 10 08:41:53 2003 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 05:41:53 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: --- Rick Richard wrote: >> I don't understand the idea of expecting things for >> free. > Maybe we should charge each other for this > conversation, then? Except, for most of us here, there's no expectation of cooperation. I am writing a book, for instance. Some of the things I talk/ask about on here will subjects covered in the book. I make it clear up-front, though, on a regular basis, and I ASK people to discuss these issues. If people decline to, or ask that their input here does not go into the book, then it won't be in the book. I read your initial email, and saw some of the responses to it (one or two of which were stronger than I thought appropriate). Your approach, as someone new to posting on the list (AFAIK), seemed a little demanding in my estimation, and apparently that of some other people as well. I understand your points about using the test as a reference, and not wanting to rip anyone off. That clarifies your position a lot, and I think it dispels some misunderstandings had by myself and others here. > Or pay taxes for the air we breathe? Well, plants don't usually want anything but our carbon dioxide, and we give that to them freely... Both sides find it equitable, I should think. ;) > I agree that people who do good work should get > fairly compensated for it, but fairness is very > subjective. If the book were $20 new or > used, I'd buy it. You may yet find someone who would sell one for that. Again, someone who writes something is entitled to charge whatever they feel like for it, and you're entitled to buy or not buy. Technical publications often have a limited market, and cost a lot to research and document. The costs of publication are much like the costs of production for machines; there is the development and tooling cost, and then the per-unit cost in energy and materials for manufacturing. Economies of scale. These are the two reasons why technical publications are usually significantly more expensive than mass-market paperbacks. I don't see a lot of writers getting rich off of technical books. ;) > The latest edition, however, lists for $110 and > isn't popular in the used market. The older edition > is around $80. That's too much for me and my DIY > project. I'm within my right to opt not to purchase > the book and seek the information elsewhere, which > is what I'm trying to do. No, you stated outright that you were trying to seek the information from the book, but without paying for it. With a brusque request, that rubbed some people the wrong way, for various reasons. > You're within your right to detest me for it. I don't detest you. I just think that things have value, and I question the motives of people who try to obtain valued things without spending anything. > I have always felt that information should be free. Gaining information is not free, however. How can one gain new pools of information without spending money on research? If everything was free, then I can see the point of making information free as well. But information doesn't grow on trees; someone has to find it. > It can be used to manufacture products for profit, > which can then compensate inventors. And you are developing such a product. Do you propose to pay royalties to the writers of the book you are seeking, in exchange for not paying for a copy? > The patent system works this way. You can search > and view patents for free at www.uspto.gov, but the > law protects the inventor's interest in the idea. Copyright laws work the same way, but a bit differently. They are, however, the only way to protect printed information. You cannot make your own copies of the information contained within, so they function just like patents. You cannot make anything with what is contacined within without compensating the originator (either through licensing, or by purchasing a copy). Unfortunately, you can't patent basic science. > You mentioned that when I buy a book, I'm not buying > paper and ink, but information. That's only true > sometimes. When was the last time you bought a blank book? > There's a lot of information distributed for free in > electronic form, but you can choose to purchase it > verbatim as a hard copy. That's a choice the publisher makes. The fact that some people do so does not make it an imperative for the rest of the universe. > The answers to most of our questions are contained > in a book somewhere. Which wasn't my point, as I am sure you are aware. If you can obtain your answers from outside a book, then you have no incentive to buy the book (if those particular answers are all you want). > As I stated before, I'm not actually asking for > specific pages out of a specific book, although I > may have unintentionally come off that way. Understood. And no hard feelings or anything. This is more of a philosophial discussion for me at this point, but it does apply to most of us here on the list, who crave information that is hard-to-find and often expensive to purcahse from others. > I have no objection to the fact that someone decided > to create a product and protect their interest in > it. The J1850 protocol is an industry standard, > however. I don't want someone's proprietary > software, I just want the elusive PWM protocol > specifications so I can develop my own software and > share it. An industry standard is probably registered with the SAE somewhere. It's also documented at... The patent office! :D You can probably find the standard via a patent search online. ===== | Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From saba_apollo at hotmail.com Mon Feb 10 09:05:18 2003 From: saba_apollo at hotmail.com (Rick Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 06:05:18 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: From: Adam Wade >When was the last time you bought a blank book? They do sell them... =) http://www.tlsbooks.com/blankbook.htm And I have one, although it isn't blank anymore... >That's a choice the publisher makes. The fact that >some people do so does not make it an imperative for >the rest of the universe. That's my point... The fact that some people DON'T also does not make it an imperative for the rest of the universe. So in other words, sometimes you are technically just buying paper and ink, and sometimes you're paying extra for the way the ink is arranged. >If you can obtain your answers from outside a book, >then you have no incentive to buy the book (if those >particular answers are all you want). I do believe I've just found most of the information I was seeking. Oki Semiconductors' website has most of the information published in their datasheets as well as a general j1850 network overview. >An industry standard is probably registered with the >SAE somewhere. It's also documented at... The patent >office! :D You can probably find the standard via a >patent search online. Yeah, SAE is the organization who is charging so much money if you want the specifications from them. It's their book. I checked the USPTO, but did not find much. www.okisemi.com/us has some good info related to their msm6636 product. I may look into that ford obd-ii manual that was mentioned previously as well. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Mon Feb 10 09:10:21 2003 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 06:10:21 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: --- Rick Richard wrote: >> When was the last time you bought a blank book? > They do sell them... =) > And I have one, although it isn't blank anymore... Yes, yes, I know. ;) I gather you got my point... And with the blank book, you're paying for the raw materials, cost of publication, and design work (if any). :D > sometimes you are technically just buying paper and > ink, and sometimes you're paying extra for the way > the ink is arranged. Like I said, there's more to a book than the cost of gathering the information. I won't detail the process and bore everyone further, but suffice it to say it's far from free. ;) If someone makes a CHOICE to give out their information for free, for whatever purpose, that's their CHOICE. No one can compel them to do so, however. > I do believe I've just found most of the information > I was seeking. Oki Semiconductors' website has most > of the information published in their datasheets as > well as a general j1850 network overview. Well, that makes life fairly simple, then. ;) As an aside, amazing how often Oki comes up when I am discussing motor vehicle digital controllers. Honda seems to be very fond of having them make chips to order. > Yeah, SAE is the organization who is charging so > much money if you want the specifications from > them. It's their book. Well, it's cheap as SAE books go. Keep in mind, the market for their books can be measured in the hundreds, on a good day. That means, aside from the millions that go into the research they publish, the cost per publication for pre-press, design and printing is not spread across millions of copies. > www.okisemi.com/us has some good info related to > their msm6636 product. I may look into that ford > obd-ii manual that was mentioned previously as well. Since you have most of your answers already, perhaps you could ask specific question that covered the rest of the subject. Someone here might know (and very likely, someone on the Frod list mentioned will have the answers, even if we don't). I don't rue you finding out, but sometimes approach is everything. ;) ===== | Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From nitrusmr2 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 10 13:17:00 2003 From: nitrusmr2 at yahoo.com (Aaron Bunch) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:17:00 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Autronic software Message-ID: According to a friend who is in touch with the US distributor you will need the new Windows software to run under XP. Just do like me and buy a $150 laptop off Ebay and run Dos 6.21 Aaron --- "Charlie G." wrote: > Hi > > If anyone on this list has Autronic 327auto.zip or > 327man.zip running under > Windows XP, I would appreciate a blow by blow of how > this is done. > > I have tried several PIF files but no luck. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > If this is too far off topic please reply off list. > > Charlie G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi ===== Aaron Bunch ATS Racing http://www.atsracing.net 91 2.2 TD06 L2 Motec M4 turbo MR2 (401 rwhp @ 22psi) 93 SMG turbo MR2 (spare car, ran 13.2 at 107.6mph at SE2002) 02 Lexus IS300 92 Miata __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bill.shurvinton at nokia.com Mon Feb 10 15:46:26 2003 From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com (bill.shurvinton at nokia.com) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:46:26 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: A few guys here in UK have ditched the stock ECU. With a bigger = intercooler and stock injectors ISTR 270 odd BHP at 1Bar.=20 So depends how many horses you want and how you want to get there. Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: ext Perry Harrington [mailto:pedward at apsoft.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 12:18 AM > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 18t injector upgrade to more horses > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From gerhard at tricom.han.de Mon Feb 10 17:27:25 2003 From: gerhard at tricom.han.de (Gerhard Mueller) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:27:25 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Hello Rick Richard you may want to get the ELM320 PIC from ElmElectronics. Gerhard Am 10-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: > I don't understand what the deal is. I asked, I did not demand. > I thought the purpose of a mailing list like this was to share information > and resources. Perhaps you think it is presumptious of me to assume that > someone here has this information? I don't think so, because I've read > archives of this list where people mention owning the SAE book with the > protocol information in it. > > I don't understand the relevance of "having a real job." If you have the > book, but don't have the time to share the info from it, then I understand. > If someone has this info and is willing to share it, however, I'd rather do > it that way than needlessly spend $80+ on a book that I would rather not > buy. > > All I want to do is make an open source PIC program to convert the J1850 PWM > to a serial interface for use with one of the many scantool software > packages out there. VPW Is very well documented but few people seem to care > about the ford PWM and the DIY kits that are out there for it are > closed-source. > > > >> From: Mike >> Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >> To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request >> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:49:45 >> >> Presumptive, or mildy impertinent I would have thought ;-) >> >> We aint a free library service, some of us have real jobs where >> people pay $200 an hour (on those rare occasions :) >> >> rgds >> >> mike >> >> >> At 08:42 PM 9/2/2003 -0800, you wrote: >>> Rick, >>> >>> Your approach at asking for information is a *little* coarse. I don't >> have >>> any of the SAE books, but I can recommend a good book that has all of the >>> Ford diag codes listed and a little bit of info. >>> >>> My suggestions are these: >>> >>> Get "Ford Tuning" by Ivan J. Kotzig. He's the founder of Diablosport. >> The >>> book is a little lite on tech stuff, but it does have little bits of >> jewels. >>> On page 108 they describe some of the logical protocol used for the PWM. >> They >>> also describe the PWM encoding itself. This is a good starting point and >>> reference. >>> >>> My next suggestion is to by an AutoXray and tap into the Data+ line for >> the PWM. >>> Use a logic analyzer or a circuit of your own design to sniff the data >> off >>> the bus. You should be able to get a fairly complete working example >> using >>> this method. >>> >>> The rest is up to you. There is a Yahoo group for an open OBDII comm >> interface, >>> but it implements the SAE proto and not the PWM. >>> >>> --Perry >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 07:42:58PM -0800, Rick Richard wrote: >>>> I know someone on this list as either the SAE J1850 standard or the SAE >>>> HS-3000 book. I'd like to implement the J1850 PWM protocol that Ford >> uses, >>>> but I can't find the protocol specs online, the books are expensive, >> and >> the >>>> custom chips are closed-source. >>>> >>>> Would someone scan the info out of their book(s) and email them to me? >>>> It would be greatly appreciated! >>>> -Rick >>> >>> -- >>> Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc >>> perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ >>> >>> Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary >> safety >>> deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with >> either. >>> -- Benjamin Franklin >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Diy_efi mailing list >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From rybowen at ucla.edu Mon Feb 10 19:46:48 2003 From: rybowen at ucla.edu (rybowen at ucla.edu) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:46:48 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 standard book Message-ID: There is this wonderful thing called a "library" where information has been freed for you to use as you see fit. It is perfectly and wonderfully legal to go to a library (a large university library, for example), borrow a book and photocopy excerpts for your own use. It is called "fair use" and allows those of us who cannot afford $100+ books to get any information that we want. Email me off-list and I will see if I can order it through the UCLA library. R > >>> On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 07:42:58PM -0800, Rick Richard wrote: > >>>> I know someone on this list as either the SAE J1850 standard or > the SAE > >>>> HS-3000 book. I'd like to implement the J1850 PWM protocol that Ford > >> uses, > >>>> but I can't find the protocol specs online, the books are expensive, > >> and > >> the > >>>> custom chips are closed-source. > >>>> > >>>> Would someone scan the info out of their book(s) and email them > to me? > >>>> It would be greatly appreciated! > >>>> -Rick _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jengeltx at yahoo.com Mon Feb 10 21:39:50 2003 From: jengeltx at yahoo.com (Jeffrey Engel) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:39:50 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: There's also an Open Source project on Sourceforge.org. Jeff Engel --- Gerhard Mueller wrote: > Hello Rick Richard > > you may want to get the ELM320 PIC from > ElmElectronics. > > Gerhard > > Am 10-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: > > I don't understand what the deal is. I asked, I > did not demand. > > I thought the purpose of a mailing list like this > was to share information > > and resources. Perhaps you think it is > presumptious of me to assume that > > someone here has this information? I don't think > so, because I've read > > archives of this list where people mention owning > the SAE book with the protocol information in it. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From saba_apollo at hotmail.com Mon Feb 10 21:55:29 2003 From: saba_apollo at hotmail.com (Rick Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:55:29 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Do you have the name of it? >There's also an Open Source project on >Sourceforge.org. > >Jeff Engel >--- Gerhard Mueller wrote: > > Hello Rick Richard > > > > you may want to get the ELM320 PIC from > > ElmElectronics. > > > > Gerhard > > > > Am 10-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: > > > I don't understand what the deal is. I asked, I > > did not demand. > > > I thought the purpose of a mailing list like this > > was to share information > > > and resources. Perhaps you think it is > > presumptious of me to assume that > > > someone here has this information? I don't think > > so, because I've read > > > archives of this list where people mention owning > > the SAE book with the protocol information in it. > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jengeltx at yahoo.com Mon Feb 10 22:11:22 2003 From: jengeltx at yahoo.com (Jeffrey Engel) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:11:22 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Yeah, I just couldn't remember it earlier. http://freediag.sourceforge.net/ HTH, Jeff Engel --- Rick Richard wrote: > Do you have the name of it? > > > >There's also an Open Source project on > >Sourceforge.org. > > > >Jeff Engel > >--- Gerhard Mueller wrote: > > > Hello Rick Richard > > > > > > you may want to get the ELM320 PIC from > > > ElmElectronics. > > > > > > Gerhard > > > > > > Am 10-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: > > > > I don't understand what the deal is. I asked, > I > > > did not demand. > > > > I thought the purpose of a mailing list like > this > > > was to share information > > > > and resources. Perhaps you think it is > > > presumptious of me to assume that > > > > someone here has this information? I don't > think > > > so, because I've read > > > > archives of this list where people mention > owning > > > the SAE book with the protocol information in > it. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From sravet at arm.com Mon Feb 10 22:23:19 2003 From: sravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:23:19 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Rick Richard wrote: > > I know someone on this list as either the SAE J1850 standard or the SAE > HS-3000 book. I'd like to implement the J1850 PWM protocol that Ford uses, > but I can't find the protocol specs online, the books are expensive, and the > custom chips are closed-source. There are several layers to the protocol. There is some info on the gmecm page that I've collected, diy-efi.org, click gmecm, click ECM info, click OBD2. The device IDs, request numbers, etc. that are specified in J2178 and J2190 are the same for all manufacturers, although the good stuff is implemented in the "manufacturer defined" sections. The electrical portion of the protocol, which you're probably interested in, is in a different document that I don't have a copy of. I'm not even sure which J document describes ford. But, I've found plenty of data sheets from motorola and intel that describe the GM format (J1850) and basically contain all the info in J1850. It seems like semiconductor manufacturers that sell Ford interface chips would also have similar data available in their datasheets. It's taken me a couple months of searching and reading to understand what specs apply to what, and to locate stuff on the internet. If you're just getting started then keep looking, it's probably there but you have to learn how to find it. Like someone else mentioned, www.elmelectronics.com has a PWM <-> RS232 converter chip (it's a programmed PIC) that may work for you. --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com ARM,Inc. www.arm.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From saba_apollo at hotmail.com Mon Feb 10 22:24:47 2003 From: saba_apollo at hotmail.com (Rick Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:24:47 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Yeah, that's the scantool software I plan to use. What I'm wanting to develop is a device that will bridge the RS232 serial port with the J1850 PWM bus. The Oki Semiconductor PDF I got contains the physical-layer PWM protocol specifications, j1850 frame structures, and how to implement collision detection on the bus. It looks like I've found everything I need. =) It should be a simple matter to program a PIC to communicate on the j1850 PWM bus, assemble frames, and then send them to the RS232 as ASCII. From there, the freediag scantool will extract the data from the j1850 frame and implement the rest of the protocol. From: Jeffrey Engel >Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request >Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:05:18 -0800 (PST) > >Yeah, I just couldn't remember it earlier. > >http://freediag.sourceforge.net/ > >HTH, > >Jeff Engel >--- Rick Richard wrote: > > Do you have the name of it? > > > > > > >There's also an Open Source project on > > >Sourceforge.org. > > > > > >Jeff Engel > > >--- Gerhard Mueller wrote: > > > > Hello Rick Richard > > > > > > > > you may want to get the ELM320 PIC from > > > > ElmElectronics. > > > > > > > > Gerhard > > > > > > > > Am 10-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: > > > > > I don't understand what the deal is. I asked, > > I > > > > did not demand. > > > > > I thought the purpose of a mailing list like > > this > > > > was to share information > > > > > and resources. Perhaps you think it is > > > > presumptious of me to assume that > > > > > someone here has this information? I don't > > think > > > > so, because I've read > > > > > archives of this list where people mention > > owning > > > > the SAE book with the protocol information in > > it. > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From sravet at arm.com Mon Feb 10 22:28:44 2003 From: sravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:28:44 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Rick Richard wrote: > > I know someone on this list as either the SAE J1850 standard or the SAE > HS-3000 book. I'd like to implement the J1850 PWM protocol that Ford uses, > but I can't find the protocol specs online, the books are expensive, and the > custom chips are closed-source. Well, I spoke before I finished recalling. J1850 does describe the physical layer for both GM (VPW) and Ford (PWM). There's a copy of J1850 on the gmecm page as described previously. --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com ARM,Inc. www.arm.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From gerhard at tricom.han.de Mon Feb 10 22:36:44 2003 From: gerhard at tricom.han.de (Gerhard Mueller) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:36:44 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Hello Jeffrey Engel there are a lot of projects with the Elm ICs. See scantool.net and other links there. All are open source. You may get datasheets from Elm. Gerhard Am 10-Feb-03 schrieb Jeffrey Engel: > There's also an Open Source project on > Sourceforge.org. > > Jeff Engel > --- Gerhard Mueller wrote: >> Hello Rick Richard >> >> you may want to get the ELM320 PIC from >> ElmElectronics. >> >> Gerhard >> >> Am 10-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: >>> I don't understand what the deal is. I asked, I >> did not demand. >>> I thought the purpose of a mailing list like this >> was to share information >>> and resources. Perhaps you think it is >> presumptious of me to assume that >>> someone here has this information? I don't think >> so, because I've read >>> archives of this list where people mention owning >> the SAE book with the protocol information in it. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Regards -- Gerhard Mueller, Eichenkamp 14 A, D-30916 Isernhagen Voice: +49 5139 896834, Fax: +49 5139 896835 info at obd-2.de http://www.obd-2.de _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From saba_apollo at hotmail.com Mon Feb 10 23:01:34 2003 From: saba_apollo at hotmail.com (Rick Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:01:34 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: This is the very part that I want to make my own open-source version of. The ELM is a good product and it is priced reasonably, but I would rather program a PIC myself than purchase a preprogrammed PIC. It would save a couple dollars and I could change the interface if I needed to. From: Gerhard Mueller >Reply-To: gerhard at tricom.han.de, List for general do-it-yourself EFI >talk >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request >Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 16:42:04 +0200 > >Hello Rick Richard > >you may want to get the ELM320 PIC from ElmElectronics. > >Gerhard > >Am 10-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: > > I don't understand what the deal is. I asked, I did not demand. > > I thought the purpose of a mailing list like this was to share >information > > and resources. Perhaps you think it is presumptious of me to assume >that > > someone here has this information? I don't think so, because I've read > > archives of this list where people mention owning the SAE book with the > > protocol information in it. > > > > I don't understand the relevance of "having a real job." If you have the > > book, but don't have the time to share the info from it, then I >understand. > > If someone has this info and is willing to share it, however, I'd rather >do > > it that way than needlessly spend $80+ on a book that I would rather not > > buy. > > > > All I want to do is make an open source PIC program to convert the J1850 >PWM > > to a serial interface for use with one of the many scantool software > > packages out there. VPW Is very well documented but few people seem to >care > > about the ford PWM and the DIY kits that are out there for it are > > closed-source. > > > > > > > >> From: Mike > >> Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > >> To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request > >> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 12:49:45 > >> > >> Presumptive, or mildy impertinent I would have thought ;-) > >> > >> We aint a free library service, some of us have real jobs where > >> people pay $200 an hour (on those rare occasions :) > >> > >> rgds > >> > >> mike > >> > >> > >> At 08:42 PM 9/2/2003 -0800, you wrote: > >>> Rick, > >>> > >>> Your approach at asking for information is a *little* coarse. I don't > >> have > >>> any of the SAE books, but I can recommend a good book that has all of >the > >>> Ford diag codes listed and a little bit of info. > >>> > >>> My suggestions are these: > >>> > >>> Get "Ford Tuning" by Ivan J. Kotzig. He's the founder of Diablosport. > >> The > >>> book is a little lite on tech stuff, but it does have little bits of > >> jewels. > >>> On page 108 they describe some of the logical protocol used for the >PWM. > >> They > >>> also describe the PWM encoding itself. This is a good starting point >and > >>> reference. > >>> > >>> My next suggestion is to by an AutoXray and tap into the Data+ line >for > >> the PWM. > >>> Use a logic analyzer or a circuit of your own design to sniff the data > >> off > >>> the bus. You should be able to get a fairly complete working example > >> using > >>> this method. > >>> > >>> The rest is up to you. There is a Yahoo group for an open OBDII comm > >> interface, > >>> but it implements the SAE proto and not the PWM. > >>> > >>> --Perry > >>> > >>> On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 07:42:58PM -0800, Rick Richard wrote: > >>>> I know someone on this list as either the SAE J1850 standard or the >SAE > >>>> HS-3000 book. I'd like to implement the J1850 PWM protocol that Ford > >> uses, > >>>> but I can't find the protocol specs online, the books are expensive, > >> and > >> the > >>>> custom chips are closed-source. > >>>> > >>>> Would someone scan the info out of their book(s) and email them to >me? > >>>> It would be greatly appreciated! > >>>> -Rick > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc > >>> perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ > >>> > >>> Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little >temporary > >> safety > >>> deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with > >> either. > >>> -- Benjamin Franklin > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Diy_efi mailing list > >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >>> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Diy_efi mailing list > >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From gerhard at tricom.han.de Mon Feb 10 23:53:50 2003 From: gerhard at tricom.han.de (Gerhard Mueller) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:53:50 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Hello Rick Richard you may want to invent the wheel twice. The Elm PICs ELM320, ELM322 and ELM323 are ready to go for about CAN$ 15.- Get the datasheets from www.elmelectronics.com Gerhard Am 11-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: > Yeah, that's the scantool software I plan to use. > What I'm wanting to develop is a device that will bridge the RS232 > serial port with the J1850 PWM bus. The Oki Semiconductor PDF I got > contains the physical-layer PWM protocol specifications, j1850 frame > structures, and how to implement collision detection on the bus. > > It looks like I've found everything I need. =) It should be a simple matter > to program a PIC to communicate on the j1850 PWM bus, assemble frames, and > then send them to the RS232 as ASCII. From there, the freediag scantool will > extract the data from the j1850 frame and implement the rest of the > protocol. > >> From: Jeffrey Engel >> Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >> To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request >> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:05:18 -0800 (PST) >> >> Yeah, I just couldn't remember it earlier. >> >> http://freediag.sourceforge.net/ >> >> HTH, >> >> Jeff Engel >> --- Rick Richard wrote: >>> Do you have the name of it? >>> >>> >>>> There's also an Open Source project on >>>> Sourceforge.org. >>>> >>>> Jeff Engel >>>> --- Gerhard Mueller wrote: >>>>> Hello Rick Richard >>>>> >>>>> you may want to get the ELM320 PIC from >>>>> ElmElectronics. >>>>> >>>>> Gerhard >>>>> >>>>> Am 10-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: >>>>>> I don't understand what the deal is. I asked, >>> I >>>>> did not demand. >>>>>> I thought the purpose of a mailing list like >>> this >>>>> was to share information >>>>>> and resources. Perhaps you think it is >>>>> presumptious of me to assume that >>>>>> someone here has this information? I don't >>> think >>>>> so, because I've read >>>>>> archives of this list where people mention >>> owning >>>>> the SAE book with the protocol information in >>> it. >> _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From saba_apollo at hotmail.com Tue Feb 11 00:48:00 2003 From: saba_apollo at hotmail.com (Rick Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:48:00 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Yes, I have had the datasheets before my first post on this thread. Call it artistic touch, if you want. I'm ready to reinvent the wheel just to make it my own. The reason I do things myself is because I enjoy the learning process. In the last 24 hours I've learned a great deal about the j1850 protocol! =) Thanks > >Hello Rick Richard > >you may want to invent the wheel twice. The Elm PICs ELM320, >ELM322 and ELM323 are ready to go for about CAN$ 15.- >Get the datasheets from www.elmelectronics.com > >Gerhard > >Am 11-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: > > Yeah, that's the scantool software I plan to use. > > What I'm wanting to develop is a device that will bridge the RS232 > > serial port with the J1850 PWM bus. The Oki Semiconductor PDF I got > > contains the physical-layer PWM protocol specifications, j1850 frame > > structures, and how to implement collision detection on the bus. > > > > It looks like I've found everything I need. =) It should be a simple >matter > > to program a PIC to communicate on the j1850 PWM bus, assemble frames, >and > > then send them to the RS232 as ASCII. From there, the freediag scantool >will > > extract the data from the j1850 frame and implement the rest of the > > protocol. > > > >> From: Jeffrey Engel > >> Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > >> To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request > >> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:05:18 -0800 (PST) > >> > >> Yeah, I just couldn't remember it earlier. > >> > >> http://freediag.sourceforge.net/ > >> > >> HTH, > >> > >> Jeff Engel > >> --- Rick Richard wrote: > >>> Do you have the name of it? > >>> > >>> > >>>> There's also an Open Source project on > >>>> Sourceforge.org. > >>>> > >>>> Jeff Engel > >>>> --- Gerhard Mueller wrote: > >>>>> Hello Rick Richard > >>>>> > >>>>> you may want to get the ELM320 PIC from > >>>>> ElmElectronics. > >>>>> > >>>>> Gerhard > >>>>> > >>>>> Am 10-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: > >>>>>> I don't understand what the deal is. I asked, > >>> I > >>>>> did not demand. > >>>>>> I thought the purpose of a mailing list like > >>> this > >>>>> was to share information > >>>>>> and resources. Perhaps you think it is > >>>>> presumptious of me to assume that > >>>>>> someone here has this information? I don't > >>> think > >>>>> so, because I've read > >>>>>> archives of this list where people mention > >>> owning > >>>>> the SAE book with the protocol information in > >>> it. > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jengeltx at yahoo.com Tue Feb 11 02:29:26 2003 From: jengeltx at yahoo.com (Jeffrey Engel) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 23:29:26 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request Message-ID: Richard, Gerhard's suggestion is a good one, please take a look at: http://www.elmelectronics.com The ELM320 is all set up to convert OBDII to RS-232. Someone has done all the hard work for you. Jeff Engel --- Gerhard Mueller wrote: > Hello Rick Richard > > you may want to invent the wheel twice. The Elm PICs > ELM320, > ELM322 and ELM323 are ready to go for about CAN$ > 15.- > Get the datasheets from www.elmelectronics.com > > Gerhard > > Am 11-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: > > Yeah, that's the scantool software I plan to use. > > What I'm wanting to develop is a device that will > bridge the RS232 > > serial port with the J1850 PWM bus. The Oki > Semiconductor PDF I got > > contains the physical-layer PWM protocol > specifications, j1850 frame > > structures, and how to implement collision > detection on the bus. > > > > It looks like I've found everything I need. =) It > should be a simple matter > > to program a PIC to communicate on the j1850 PWM > bus, assemble frames, and > > then send them to the RS232 as ASCII. From there, > the freediag scantool will > > extract the data from the j1850 frame and > implement the rest of the > > protocol. > > > >> From: Jeffrey Engel > >> Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI > talk > >> To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: J1850 PWM Info Request > >> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:05:18 -0800 (PST) > >> > >> Yeah, I just couldn't remember it earlier. > >> > >> http://freediag.sourceforge.net/ > >> > >> HTH, > >> > >> Jeff Engel > >> --- Rick Richard wrote: > >>> Do you have the name of it? > >>> > >>> > >>>> There's also an Open Source project on > >>>> Sourceforge.org. > >>>> > >>>> Jeff Engel > >>>> --- Gerhard Mueller > wrote: > >>>>> Hello Rick Richard > >>>>> > >>>>> you may want to get the ELM320 PIC from > >>>>> ElmElectronics. > >>>>> > >>>>> Gerhard > >>>>> > >>>>> Am 10-Feb-03 schrieb Rick Richard: > >>>>>> I don't understand what the deal is. I > asked, > >>> I > >>>>> did not demand. > >>>>>> I thought the purpose of a mailing list like > >>> this > >>>>> was to share information > >>>>>> and resources. Perhaps you think it is > >>>>> presumptious of me to assume that > >>>>>> someone here has this information? I don't > >>> think > >>>>> so, because I've read > >>>>>> archives of this list where people mention > >>> owning > >>>>> the SAE book with the protocol information in > >>> it. > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Tue Feb 11 15:49:55 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:49:55 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Design of a simple LPG injection system Message-ID: At 07:51 AM 30/1/2003 +1100, you wrote: >My name is Peter Sterling and I am in Australia. I am working on a >concept of using an interceptor to alter timing signals from the ECU and >control a large single LPG injector. I propose to start on petrol and >once warmed up switch to LPG. The idea is to make a simple and >inexpensive system to replace venturi type LPG systems. Heard of one which put the LPG directly as liquid into intake ports just next to existing petrol injectors... >It seems that several types of modern vehicles have a lot of problem >with backfiring on LPG and detroying both the airflow meter and the air >filter box. This seems to be - on the surface - more common with wasted >spark systems. Could it be a product of maintaining the standard petrol >timing map without interception and remaping for LPG. Several cars had this problem, especially the VL range by GMH, the turbo models were the worst for backfire - no wasted spark on either NA or turbo model. >I am looking at positioning the injector just prior to the thottle body >- mounted in a machined adaptor ring. Why ? Safer would be after TB, you limit and reduce the volume of a combustible mixture to the plenum and not the whole intake system, might want to consider using a burst valve on the plenum though and of course depends on what safety mechanisms you have as backup so there is no chance of trickle depending on what type of injector you use... rgds mike Tuning would be by using a wide >band oxy sensor calibrated for LPG. >I assume that various LPG discussions have taken place on the site over >the years and I am currently searching the achives to look for info. If >there is other important information I need specific to this project can >anybody direct me there please. > >Is there anyone else on this site interested in discussing how one might >get such a system up and running within 12 months. > >By the way I have a good friend who managers the quality assurance >laboratoties for BOSCH Australia. If you are after info on Bosch ECU's I >may be able to get some info from him. > >Regards >Peter Sterling > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Kind Regards ~`:o) Mike Massen Network Power Systems Perth, Western Australia Ph/Fx +61 (0)8 9444 8961, Mb +61 (0)438 048961 Power system in Jungle, Twin tyre car, Differential gauge experiment http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/index.html Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Tue Feb 11 15:51:34 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:51:34 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Can anyone get MPX5500DP or equivalent diff. sensors ? Message-ID: Hi chaps, Am trying to get hold of some differential pressure sensors by Motorola, these are rated to 500+ kpa and would prob be of interest to other diyer's in efi data logging/recording... The p/n is MPX5500DP and its by Motorola, I can get them in Australia but the importer says its 10 - 12 weeks wait, Is there anyone that would be willing to put a couple in an airbag with suitable antistatic packing from any US stocking distributor and accept paypal for payment in USD ? rgds mike Perth, Western Australia _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From brian.j.geddes at intel.com Tue Feb 11 19:40:17 2003 From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:40:17 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: All -=20 In the online community for my car (Mitsu 3000GT), there's a sort of = tribal knowledge that says certain cyliners tend to get more air than = others because of the design of the intake manifold, and thus run leaner = and detonate more frequently. I don't doubt that this is true...but no = one's actually ever done any testing to quantify the problem. Now that = I'm running a standalone EMS, I can compensate for this airflow = difference.=20 All I have to do, is figure out how much more/less than average each of = the runners in the intake manifold tends to get. Are there companies = out there that would do this kind of a test? Is this something I could = find a local shop to do, or would I need to send my intake plenum out to = someone to have it tested? Any suggestions? Thanks, - Brian Geddes _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From ddahlgren at snet.net Tue Feb 11 20:08:47 2003 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:08:47 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: The sad part about this problem is that it most likely changes with rpm as well that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might be a lean one at 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using some egt probes and data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i think i would only want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. Dave "Geddes, Brian J" wrote: > > All - > > In the online community for my car (Mitsu 3000GT), there's a sort of tribal knowledge that says certain cyliners tend to get more air than others because of the design of the intake manifold, and thus run leaner and detonate more frequently. I don't doubt that this is true...but no one's actually ever done any testing to quantify the problem. Now that I'm running a standalone EMS, I can compensate for this airflow difference. > > All I have to do, is figure out how much more/less than average each of the runners in the intake manifold tends to get. Are there companies out there that would do this kind of a test? Is this something I could find a local shop to do, or would I need to send my intake plenum out to someone to have it tested? Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > - Brian Geddes _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From brian.j.geddes at intel.com Tue Feb 11 21:48:38 2003 From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:48:38 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: Is there a close enough correlation between EGT and A/F to use EGT to = estimate the relative airflow differences? I thought that the EGT-A/F = connection wasn't very exact...but I'm certainly no expert. =20 - Brian > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:15 PM > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing >=20 >=20 > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely=20 > changes with rpm as well > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might=20 > be a lean one at > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using=20 > some egt probes and > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i=20 > think i would only > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > Dave _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Joel.Eck at hp.com Tue Feb 11 22:02:36 2003 From: Joel.Eck at hp.com (Eck, Joel (Houston)) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:02:36 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: There was a guy who did DIY flowtesting using various adapters, a low = pressure gauge, duct tape, and a leaf blower. it may not be high-tech, = but I guess it would be able to tell you a little something about how = well each intake runner flows... http://home.earthlink.net/~tmahon281/tech.html go down to about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way down the page, you'll find the = guy's info on it. -----Original Message----- From: Geddes, Brian J [mailto:brian.j.geddes at intel.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:43 PM To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Is there a close enough correlation between EGT and A/F to use EGT to = estimate the relative airflow differences? I thought that the EGT-A/F = connection wasn't very exact...but I'm certainly no expert. =20 - Brian > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:15 PM > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing >=20 >=20 > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely=20 > changes with rpm as well > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might=20 > be a lean one at > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using=20 > some egt probes and > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i=20 > think i would only > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > Dave _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From ddahlgren at snet.net Tue Feb 11 22:05:20 2003 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:05:20 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: I would never use it for any kind of absolute numbers as it is as much timing related as anything else. With that said you are only looking for a differential.. If the timing is the same in all cylinders and the fuel is the same then the egt ought to be as well if you allow a little 'windage' for cooling system issues. If they are different then I would bet the only thing that is different is the airflow.. It might be worth a little fuel tweaking to even them up if they are a lot different.. Over 100 deg F would be my threshold to play a little. Dave "Geddes, Brian J" wrote: > > Is there a close enough correlation between EGT and A/F to use EGT to estimate the relative airflow differences? I thought that the EGT-A/F connection wasn't very exact...but I'm certainly no expert. > > - Brian > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:15 PM > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > > > > > > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely > > changes with rpm as well > > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might > > be a lean one at > > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using > > some egt probes and > > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i > > think i would only > > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > > Dave > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jstricke at rwisp.com Tue Feb 11 22:20:02 2003 From: jstricke at rwisp.com (John Stricker) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:20:02 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: In the "more than one way to skin a cat" category, a multi-probe EGT would tell you a lot, real time, at many different engine speeds and loads. If there truly is that much difference though, don't you think a better would be to investigate and fix the airflow imbalance? John Stricker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dahlgren" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely changes with rpm as well > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might be a lean one at > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using some egt probes and > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i think i would only > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > Dave > > "Geddes, Brian J" wrote: > > > > All - > > > > In the online community for my car (Mitsu 3000GT), there's a sort of tribal knowledge that says certain cyliners tend to get more air than others because of the design of the intake manifold, and thus run leaner and detonate more frequently. I don't doubt that this is true...but no one's actually ever done any testing to quantify the problem. Now that I'm running a standalone EMS, I can compensate for this airflow difference. > > > > All I have to do, is figure out how much more/less than average each of the runners in the intake manifold tends to get. Are there companies out there that would do this kind of a test? Is this something I could find a local shop to do, or would I need to send my intake plenum out to someone to have it tested? Any suggestions? > > > > Thanks, > > - Brian Geddes > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jstricke at rwisp.com Tue Feb 11 22:24:49 2003 From: jstricke at rwisp.com (John Stricker) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:24:49 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: Forgot to put a link in to what I had in mind. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2402582809&cat egory=26436 would work well for this particular application. John Stricker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dahlgren" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely changes with rpm as well > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might be a lean one at > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using some egt probes and > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i think i would only > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > Dave > > "Geddes, Brian J" wrote: > > > > All - > > > > In the online community for my car (Mitsu 3000GT), there's a sort of tribal knowledge that says certain cyliners tend to get more air than others because of the design of the intake manifold, and thus run leaner and detonate more frequently. I don't doubt that this is true...but no one's actually ever done any testing to quantify the problem. Now that I'm running a standalone EMS, I can compensate for this airflow difference. > > > > All I have to do, is figure out how much more/less than average each of the runners in the intake manifold tends to get. Are there companies out there that would do this kind of a test? Is this something I could find a local shop to do, or would I need to send my intake plenum out to someone to have it tested? Any suggestions? > > > > Thanks, > > - Brian Geddes > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From brian.j.geddes at intel.com Tue Feb 11 23:22:55 2003 From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 20:22:55 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: How different would the A/F ratio in the cylinders need to be in order = to create a 100F difference in EGTs? Are we talking about a tenth of a = point, or a point, or a couple points? My concern is the EGT may be too = coarse a measurement. - Brian >=20 > I would never use it for any kind of absolute numbers as it=20 > is as much timing > related as anything else. With that said you are only looking for a > differential.. If the timing is the same in all cylinders and=20 > the fuel is the > same then the egt ought to be as well if you allow a little=20 > 'windage' for > cooling system issues. If they are different then I would bet=20 > the only thing > that is different is the airflow.. It might be worth a little=20 > fuel tweaking to > even them up if they are a lot different.. Over 100 deg F=20 > would be my threshold > to play a little. > Dave=20 > "Geddes, Brian J" wrote: > >=20 > > Is there a close enough correlation between EGT and A/F to=20 > use EGT to estimate the relative airflow differences? I=20 > thought that the EGT-A/F connection wasn't very exact...but=20 > I'm certainly no expert. > >=20 > > - Brian > >=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:15 PM > > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > > > > > > > > > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely > > > changes with rpm as well > > > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might > > > be a lean one at > > > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using > > > some egt probes and > > > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i > > > think i would only > > > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > > > Dave > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >=20 _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From brian.j.geddes at intel.com Tue Feb 11 23:23:11 2003 From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 20:23:11 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: This was my thought as well. If I'm gonna invest time and money into = investigating a potential problem, it seems more logical to attack the = problem area (manifold flow), rather than looking at downstream results = (EGT). - Brian > If > there truly is that much difference though, don't you think a=20 > better would > be to investigate and fix the airflow imbalance? >=20 > John Stricker > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave Dahlgren" > To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 2:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing >=20 >=20 > > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely=20 > changes with rpm as > well > > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500=20 > might be a lean > one at > > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by=20 > using some egt > probes and > > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i=20 > think i would > only > > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > > Dave > > > > "Geddes, Brian J" wrote: > > > > > > All - > > > > > > In the online community for my car (Mitsu 3000GT),=20 > there's a sort of > tribal knowledge that says certain cyliners tend to get more=20 > air than others > because of the design of the intake manifold, and thus run leaner and > detonate more frequently. I don't doubt that this is=20 > true...but no one's > actually ever done any testing to quantify the problem. Now that I'm > running a standalone EMS, I can compensate for this airflow=20 > difference. > > > > > > All I have to do, is figure out how much more/less than=20 > average each of > the runners in the intake manifold tends to get. Are there=20 > companies out > there that would do this kind of a test? Is this something I=20 > could find a > local shop to do, or would I need to send my intake plenum=20 > out to someone to > have it tested? Any suggestions? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > - Brian Geddes > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >=20 _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From brian.j.geddes at intel.com Tue Feb 11 23:29:52 2003 From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 20:29:52 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: Hmm...using a water meter and a leaf blower is an interesting idea. I = think I'd need to have air flowing through all 6 runners at once. What = I've read suggests that the runners at furthest from the throttle body = will get more air, because the earlier runners 'siphon' off the = pressure. If all the other runners were blocked off, I might not see = this effect. Maybe if I put an equal restriction at the end of each runner (fixed = diameter nozzle, or something), and fed the leaf blower into the = throttle body, I could measure the pressure in each runner. - Brian >=20 > There was a guy who did DIY flowtesting using various=20 > adapters, a low pressure gauge, duct tape, and a leaf blower.=20 > it may not be high-tech, but I guess it would be able to tell=20 > you a little something about how well each intake runner flows... >=20 > http://home.earthlink.net/~tmahon281/tech.html >=20 > go down to about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way down the page, you'll=20 > find the guy's info on it. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Geddes, Brian J [mailto:brian.j.geddes at intel.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:43 PM > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing >=20 >=20 > Is there a close enough correlation between EGT and A/F to=20 > use EGT to estimate the relative airflow differences? I=20 > thought that the EGT-A/F connection wasn't very exact...but=20 > I'm certainly no expert. =20 >=20 > - Brian >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:15 PM > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > >=20 > >=20 > > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely=20 > > changes with rpm as well > > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might=20 > > be a lean one at > > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using=20 > > some egt probes and > > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i=20 > > think i would only > > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > > Dave >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >=20 _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From brian.j.geddes at intel.com Tue Feb 11 23:41:28 2003 From: brian.j.geddes at intel.com (Geddes, Brian J) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 20:41:28 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: What I said below doesn't make any sense. Ignore the "siphoning" = comment. What I've read suggests that the runners furthest from the = throttle body will get more air. Don't know why - I'll have to do more = reading. :) - Brian >=20 > Hmm...using a water meter and a leaf blower is an interesting=20 > idea. I think I'd need to have air flowing through all 6=20 > runners at once. What I've read suggests that the runners at=20 > furthest from the throttle body will get more air, because=20 > the earlier runners 'siphon' off the pressure. If all the=20 > other runners were blocked off, I might not see this effect. >=20 > Maybe if I put an equal restriction at the end of each runner=20 > (fixed diameter nozzle, or something), and fed the leaf=20 > blower into the throttle body, I could measure the pressure=20 > in each runner. >=20 > - Brian >=20 > >=20 > > There was a guy who did DIY flowtesting using various=20 > > adapters, a low pressure gauge, duct tape, and a leaf blower.=20 > > it may not be high-tech, but I guess it would be able to tell=20 > > you a little something about how well each intake runner flows... > >=20 > > http://home.earthlink.net/~tmahon281/tech.html > >=20 > > go down to about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way down the page, you'll=20 > > find the guy's info on it. > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Geddes, Brian J [mailto:brian.j.geddes at intel.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:43 PM > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > >=20 > >=20 > > Is there a close enough correlation between EGT and A/F to=20 > > use EGT to estimate the relative airflow differences? I=20 > > thought that the EGT-A/F connection wasn't very exact...but=20 > > I'm certainly no expert. =20 > >=20 > > - Brian > >=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:15 PM > > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely=20 > > > changes with rpm as well > > > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might=20 > > > be a lean one at > > > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using=20 > > > some egt probes and > > > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i=20 > > > think i would only > > > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > > > Dave > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >=20 _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From joeld at ualberta.ca Wed Feb 12 01:51:56 2003 From: joeld at ualberta.ca (joeld) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 22:51:56 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: I would imagine blowing through would not get you the same ratios as a vacum (real engine) would. example: two stroke porting for normal engines can be a huge deal, everything should be extremely smooth. if supercharging, it really does not matter, only that your areas are correct. also there would be no resonance with this setup, i think that could lead to some major blunders Joel Day C.S.C 2003 Team Leader PH: 434 9294 www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From gbeaty at ufl.edu Wed Feb 12 02:11:11 2003 From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:11:11 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: >From the things I've seen with my own car and read about others, 35C is about 1 entire a/f point (ie 11:1 to 12:1) if everything else is equal. Of course, everything else is rarely equal (especially timing w/ active knock control), so YMMV. Grant ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geddes, Brian J" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 6:17 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing How different would the A/F ratio in the cylinders need to be in order to create a 100F difference in EGTs? Are we talking about a tenth of a point, or a point, or a couple points? My concern is the EGT may be too coarse a measurement. - Brian > > I would never use it for any kind of absolute numbers as it > is as much timing > related as anything else. With that said you are only looking for a > differential.. If the timing is the same in all cylinders and > the fuel is the > same then the egt ought to be as well if you allow a little > 'windage' for > cooling system issues. If they are different then I would bet > the only thing > that is different is the airflow.. It might be worth a little > fuel tweaking to > even them up if they are a lot different.. Over 100 deg F > would be my threshold > to play a little. > Dave > "Geddes, Brian J" wrote: > > > > Is there a close enough correlation between EGT and A/F to > use EGT to estimate the relative airflow differences? I > thought that the EGT-A/F connection wasn't very exact...but > I'm certainly no expert. > > > > - Brian > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:15 PM > > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > > > > > > > > > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely > > > changes with rpm as well > > > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might > > > be a lean one at > > > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using > > > some egt probes and > > > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i > > > think i would only > > > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > > > Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From gbeaty at ufl.edu Wed Feb 12 02:13:27 2003 From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:13:27 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: I've always heard the monentum of the air (there is a lot of velocity going thru the TB) causes it to not want to make a 90 degree turn into the first cylinder, and instead builds up pressure at the rear of the manifold. Don't know how true this is, its just what I've heard on other lists. Grant Beaty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geddes, Brian J" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 6:35 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing What I said below doesn't make any sense. Ignore the "siphoning" comment. What I've read suggests that the runners furthest from the throttle body will get more air. Don't know why - I'll have to do more reading. :) - Brian > > Hmm...using a water meter and a leaf blower is an interesting > idea. I think I'd need to have air flowing through all 6 > runners at once. What I've read suggests that the runners at > furthest from the throttle body will get more air, because > the earlier runners 'siphon' off the pressure. If all the > other runners were blocked off, I might not see this effect. > > Maybe if I put an equal restriction at the end of each runner > (fixed diameter nozzle, or something), and fed the leaf > blower into the throttle body, I could measure the pressure > in each runner. > > - Brian > > > > > There was a guy who did DIY flowtesting using various > > adapters, a low pressure gauge, duct tape, and a leaf blower. > > it may not be high-tech, but I guess it would be able to tell > > you a little something about how well each intake runner flows... > > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~tmahon281/tech.html > > > > go down to about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way down the page, you'll > > find the guy's info on it. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Geddes, Brian J [mailto:brian.j.geddes at intel.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:43 PM > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > > > > > > Is there a close enough correlation between EGT and A/F to > > use EGT to estimate the relative airflow differences? I > > thought that the EGT-A/F connection wasn't very exact...but > > I'm certainly no expert. > > > > - Brian > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:15 PM > > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > > > > > > > > > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely > > > changes with rpm as well > > > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might > > > be a lean one at > > > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using > > > some egt probes and > > > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i > > > think i would only > > > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > > > Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From derek_obanion at yahoo.com Wed Feb 12 02:54:19 2003 From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:54:19 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Affordable accelerometer? Message-ID: I need a accelerometer. Preferably in the +/-1gto +/-2g range, and I only need a single axis. Can be powered by either unregulated 12V or regulated 5V. Needs a DC output, perferably a 0-5V one with 0G being 2.5V, or some conditioning similar. So far I have found several candidates, but all are $300-$400. Which confuses me, considering the G-tech Pro has a prettynice dual-axis accelerometer built in and the whole thing only costs $150. I was going to use this as a logged input to the AEM EMS computer I have. I can then log G forces at 250samples/sec, and easily compute horsepower from the logs. I have been trying to just use the gear ratios and RPM rate of change to infer G-force, but the data isn't "clean" enough to get a steady reading. Lot's of peaks and valleys. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jstricke at rwisp.com Wed Feb 12 02:54:20 2003 From: jstricke at rwisp.com (John Stricker) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:54:20 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: I can't specifically answer your question but in aircraft, at first it takes large movements of the mixture control to affect EGT. As we get close to proper leaning, very slight movements can make a great deal of difference in EGT. As to tuning by EGT, there is a company called GAMI that balances fixed orifice injectors in aircraft mechanical fuel injection systems by doing just that. You fly the airplane and record EGT's and they can vary fuel with injector sizes. On some engines (large, turbo-charged Continentals) it makes a VAST difference in how well they run and their fuel efficiency. On others (smaller Lycoming, for instance) there isn't enough difference to even come close to warranting the change. The difference between the engines is how well balanced their intake piping is to begin with. John Stricker ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geddes, Brian J" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 5:17 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > How different would the A/F ratio in the cylinders need to be in order to create a 100F difference in EGTs? Are we talking about a tenth of a point, or a point, or a couple points? My concern is the EGT may be too coarse a measurement. > > - Brian > > > > > I would never use it for any kind of absolute numbers as it > > is as much timing > > related as anything else. With that said you are only looking for a > > differential.. If the timing is the same in all cylinders and > > the fuel is the > > same then the egt ought to be as well if you allow a little > > 'windage' for > > cooling system issues. If they are different then I would bet > > the only thing > > that is different is the airflow.. It might be worth a little > > fuel tweaking to > > even them up if they are a lot different.. Over 100 deg F > > would be my threshold > > to play a little. > > Dave > > "Geddes, Brian J" wrote: > > > > > > Is there a close enough correlation between EGT and A/F to > > use EGT to estimate the relative airflow differences? I > > thought that the EGT-A/F connection wasn't very exact...but > > I'm certainly no expert. > > > > > > - Brian > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:15 PM > > > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > > > > > > > > > > > > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely > > > > changes with rpm as well > > > > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might > > > > be a lean one at > > > > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using > > > > some egt probes and > > > > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i > > > > think i would only > > > > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > > > > Dave > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Diy_efi mailing list > > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From derek_obanion at yahoo.com Wed Feb 12 02:54:38 2003 From: derek_obanion at yahoo.com (Derek) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:54:38 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: Something else to mention about intake manifolds. When I swapped my stock intake manifold on my 94 Supra for one that had been extrude honed, internally ported, with a higher top welded on (more volume), it made a DRASTIC change in the VE of my motor at lower RPMs. Specifically, it gave the car a HUGE boost centered around 2800RPM. The top end wasn't effected much, but it certainly has a lot more guts from cruise than it did before. This can be seen in how I have had to map the speed density VE chart on my EMS. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From sravet at arm.com Wed Feb 12 03:40:34 2003 From: sravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:40:34 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Spark timing above 1 bar Message-ID: Sounds straightforward enough. Study the EST circuit so you understand how it works. There are some diagrams on the ftp site that show the timing of the various signals. Search for "DIS" . You need to delay in degrees, though, not ms, so your circuit will have to measure rpm, convert your desired degrees of retard into time, and apply it. sounds like a good job for a PIC. --steve pr asdf wrote: > > I have a '94 corvette with an lt1 engine I am planning on turboing. The > only problem is that I cannot use a higher than 1 bar map sensor, or the > computer thinks it is at a high altitude on start up, so i was wondering if > anyone knew of a way to use a simple microcontroller with a look up table > hooked up to a 3 bar map sensor and the crank angle sensor to delay the > spark timing above 1 bar, by delaying the signal sent to the coil by a > certain number of milli seconds to create a spark retard. I would like to > retain the use of the stock computers timing tables below 1 bar, and just be > able to delay it in the high boost regions. Does any one have any ideas or > suggestions? thanks > > Judson Hartley > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com ARM,Inc. www.arm.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From michalk at awpi.com Wed Feb 12 03:41:19 2003 From: michalk at awpi.com (Brian Michalk) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:41:19 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Affordable accelerometer? Message-ID: Try www.memsic.com. I just made a PC board using eight of their chips for another project to get a good SNR gain. Brian Michalk Life is what you make of it ... never wish you had done something. Aviator, experimental aircraft builder, motorcyclist, SCUBA diver musician, home-brewer, entrepreneur and mostly single > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Derek > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 8:48 PM > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > Subject: [Diy_efi] Affordable accelerometer? > > > I need a accelerometer. Preferably in the +/-1gto +/-2g range, > and I only need a > single axis. Can be powered by either unregulated 12V or > regulated 5V. Needs a > DC output, perferably a 0-5V one with 0G being 2.5V, or some conditioning > similar. > > So far I have found several candidates, but all are $300-$400. > Which confuses > me, considering the G-tech Pro has a prettynice dual-axis > accelerometer built in > and the whole thing only costs $150. > > I was going to use this as a logged input to the AEM EMS computer > I have. I can > then log G forces at 250samples/sec, and easily compute > horsepower from the > logs. I have been trying to just use the gear ratios and RPM rate > of change to > infer G-force, but the data isn't "clean" enough to get a steady > reading. Lot's > of peaks and valleys. > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From brian at dessent.net Wed Feb 12 03:51:50 2003 From: brian at dessent.net (Brian Dessent) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 00:51:50 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Affordable accelerometer? Message-ID: Derek wrote: > I need a accelerometer. Preferably in the +/-1gto +/-2g range, and I only need a > single axis. Can be powered by either unregulated 12V or regulated 5V. Needs a > DC output, perferably a 0-5V one with 0G being 2.5V, or some conditioning > similar. Seems to me that Analog Devices' ADXL311 will fit your bill. Datasheet: http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Datasheets/262638239ADXL311_pra.pdf Costs $6.38 each direct from http://commerce.analog.com. You might be able to order free samples as well. Specs: 2 axis, +- 2g full scale output, +2.7 to +5.25V single-supply voltage, onboard signal conditioning, 6kHz max bandwidth (-3dB). As with lots of these resonant sensors, the ultimate sensitivity is set by the noise floor which is related to the cutoff bandwidth that you select, and their datasheet claims you can resolve 2mg (milli-g's) at 10Hz BW, which corresponds to 0.1degrees of inclination. The only downside: it only comes in a tiny surface mount package, about 0.177" square. It's only 8 pins, so with a steady hand you could probably solder directly to it. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like a common pin layout (lcc 8 ?) but you may be able to find a surfboard or some other type of adapter that you could use. Brian _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bill.washington at nec.com.au Wed Feb 12 04:15:55 2003 From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 01:15:55 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: Gents, My two bob's worth: The blower will give a continuous even flow through the manifold - This isn't even close to real life on the engine particularly at low RPM where: 1. flow in each runner starts and stops sequentially with the opening and closing of intake valves. 2. The opening and closing of the valves cause low and high pressure pulses which propagate through the manifold at the speed of sound. (NOTE: since the speed of sound is airdensity(pressure) dependent the speed of propagation of these pulses will vary with vacuum/boost, which in turn is affected by engine speed, throttle butterfly position, turbo speed, ambient air density, moisture content, Intake/filter restrictions, shape and internal surface finish of the manifold ETC, ETC!) 3. When the high pressure pulse from one intake valve closing reaches another intake valve while it is open that cylinder will receive a better charge of air. 4. When the low pressure pulse from one intake valve opening reaches another intake valve while it is open that cylinder will receive a smaller charge of air. 5. Not only does the propagation time vary with the factors mentioned in (2) above, but also the time between intake valves opening varies linearly with RPM. Therefore I would expect that greatest effect from these factors will be at low RPM, which seems to be borne out by other people's experience, whereas at higher RPM I would expect the performance to asymptote towards the continuous flow model. Bill W >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:47:47 -0700 From: joeld >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing >Message-ID: <3E4AE396 at webmail.ualberta.ca> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Precedence: list >Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >Message: 3 > >I would imagine blowing through would not get you the same ratios as a vacum >(real engine) would. > >example: two stroke porting for normal engines can be a huge deal, everything >should be extremely smooth. if supercharging, it really does not matter, only >that your areas are correct. > >also there would be no resonance with this setup, i think that could lead to >some major blunders > >Joel Day >C.S.C 2003 Team Leader >PH: 434 9294 >www.ualberta.ca/~uacsc > > > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From predatordiyefi at hotmail.com Wed Feb 12 05:12:48 2003 From: predatordiyefi at hotmail.com (pr asdf) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 02:12:48 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Spark timing above 1 bar Message-ID: I am currently looking at finding a way to delay the timing, basicly I need a circut that waits for a change in input state and changes its output to match, almost instantaniously while under normal conditions, (less than 1 bar), but delay the state change by as much as .0016 sec (10 degress at 1000 rpm) or as little as .000025 sec (1 degree at 6500 rpm). I plan on programing and adjusting the tune with a laptop, so calculating the time it takes to retard X number of degrees at Y rpm can be done beforehand and then to keep it simple, just load the delay time into a look up table for the microcontler to apply. The main part is how to create the delay, without a delay under normal circumstances. The lt1 engine is also still a single coil, direcly controled through the computer, and is split to each plug by a normal distributer (if you can call an optispark a normal distibuter). Judson Hartley _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From pedward at apsoft.com Wed Feb 12 06:09:51 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 03:09:51 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Spark timing above 1 bar Message-ID: Judson, Wire the existing trigger to an IRQ pin on your micro. Then wire the existing trigger to a compare match output. The compare match should stay in the non triggered state for the delay period, then change state to the triggered state. Basically: irq handler() delay = tablex[rpm] * tabley[MAP]; timer.compare_high = delay; timer.state = low; starttimer(); Pretty simple algorithm. You could easily do it with a Hitachi H8 3664BP (42pin sdip). Eval/development kit costs $49-99 (PS and serial cable is added). --Perry On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 12:06:26AM -0500, pr asdf wrote: > I am currently looking at finding a way to delay the timing, basicly I need > a circut that waits for a change in input state and changes its output to > match, almost instantaniously while under normal conditions, (less than 1 > bar), but delay the state change by as much as .0016 sec (10 degress at 1000 > rpm) or as little as .000025 sec (1 degree at 6500 rpm). I plan on > programing and adjusting the tune with a laptop, so calculating the time it > takes to retard X number of degrees at Y rpm can be done beforehand and then > to keep it simple, just load the delay time into a look up table for the > microcontler to apply. The main part is how to create the delay, without a > delay under normal circumstances. > The lt1 engine is also still a single coil, direcly controled through the > computer, and is split to each plug by a normal distributer (if you can call > an optispark a normal distibuter). > > Judson Hartley > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From ddahlgren at snet.net Wed Feb 12 11:23:12 2003 From: ddahlgren at snet.net (Dave Dahlgren) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 08:23:12 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: The whole point about logging it is to see if the problem is real or imagined.. A lot of tribal knowledge is just that chicken bones and voodoo.... Dave Grant Beaty wrote: > > >From the things I've seen with my own car and read about others, 35C is > about 1 entire a/f point (ie 11:1 to 12:1) if everything else is equal. Of > course, everything else is rarely equal (especially timing w/ active knock > control), so YMMV. > > Grant > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geddes, Brian J" > To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 6:17 PM > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > > How different would the A/F ratio in the cylinders need to be in order to > create a 100F difference in EGTs? Are we talking about a tenth of a point, > or a point, or a couple points? My concern is the EGT may be too coarse a > measurement. > > - Brian > > > > > I would never use it for any kind of absolute numbers as it > > is as much timing > > related as anything else. With that said you are only looking for a > > differential.. If the timing is the same in all cylinders and > > the fuel is the > > same then the egt ought to be as well if you allow a little > > 'windage' for > > cooling system issues. If they are different then I would bet > > the only thing > > that is different is the airflow.. It might be worth a little > > fuel tweaking to > > even them up if they are a lot different.. Over 100 deg F > > would be my threshold > > to play a little. > > Dave > > "Geddes, Brian J" wrote: > > > > > > Is there a close enough correlation between EGT and A/F to > > use EGT to estimate the relative airflow differences? I > > thought that the EGT-A/F connection wasn't very exact...but > > I'm certainly no expert. > > > > > > - Brian > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:15 PM > > > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > > > > > > > > > > > > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely > > > > changes with rpm as well > > > > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might > > > > be a lean one at > > > > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using > > > > some egt probes and > > > > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i > > > > think i would only > > > > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > > > > Dave > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Scott.Amenson at us.bosch.com Wed Feb 12 13:09:48 2003 From: Scott.Amenson at us.bosch.com (Amenson Scott (AC/ESC4)) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:09:48 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Affordable accelerometer? Message-ID: Found a $25 0-2G 2 axis accelerometer. Made by: http://www.memsic.com/memsic/ Sold by (among others): http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=28017 I am sure that they make a single axis version, but for that price you might as well buy the 2 axis version so that you can work on your suspension setup after you get your engine done. Scott _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Scott.Amenson at us.bosch.com Wed Feb 12 13:37:48 2003 From: Scott.Amenson at us.bosch.com (Amenson Scott (AC/ESC4)) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:37:48 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] re: Affordable accelerometer? Message-ID: I posted my accelerometer suggestion before looking at the data sheet...that accelerometer outputs PWM not DC....sorry. There are others out there, just do not have the links at my fingertips. I am traveling for business and can not get at my home PC. Try searching digikey.com. Scott Subject: [Diy_efi] Affordable accelerometer? Message: 7 I need a accelerometer. Preferably in the +/-1gto +/-2g range, and I only need a single axis. Can be powered by either unregulated 12V or regulated 5V. Needs a DC output, perferably a 0-5V one with 0G being 2.5V, or some conditioning similar. So far I have found several candidates, but all are $300-$400. Which confuses me, considering the G-tech Pro has a prettynice dual-axis accelerometer built in and the whole thing only costs $150. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From gbeaty at ufl.edu Wed Feb 12 17:22:14 2003 From: gbeaty at ufl.edu (Grant Beaty) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:22:14 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: > A lot of tribal knowledge is just that chicken bones and voodoo.... > Dave I know, thats why I said YMMV (Your Milage May Vary) :) Certainly didn't mean to present it as fact. FWIW, FJO did some tests (I think on a V8) with their WB and found the EGTs increased by about 35C per a/f point. Grant ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dahlgren" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 6:28 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > The whole point about logging it is to see if the problem is real or imagined.. > A lot of tribal knowledge is just that chicken bones and voodoo.... > Dave > > Grant Beaty wrote: > > > > >From the things I've seen with my own car and read about others, 35C is > > about 1 entire a/f point (ie 11:1 to 12:1) if everything else is equal. Of > > course, everything else is rarely equal (especially timing w/ active knock > > control), so YMMV. > > > > Grant > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Geddes, Brian J" > > To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 6:17 PM > > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > > > > How different would the A/F ratio in the cylinders need to be in order to > > create a 100F difference in EGTs? Are we talking about a tenth of a point, > > or a point, or a couple points? My concern is the EGT may be too coarse a > > measurement. > > > > - Brian > > > > > > > > I would never use it for any kind of absolute numbers as it > > > is as much timing > > > related as anything else. With that said you are only looking for a > > > differential.. If the timing is the same in all cylinders and > > > the fuel is the > > > same then the egt ought to be as well if you allow a little > > > 'windage' for > > > cooling system issues. If they are different then I would bet > > > the only thing > > > that is different is the airflow.. It might be worth a little > > > fuel tweaking to > > > even them up if they are a lot different.. Over 100 deg F > > > would be my threshold > > > to play a little. > > > Dave > > > "Geddes, Brian J" wrote: > > > > > > > > Is there a close enough correlation between EGT and A/F to > > > use EGT to estimate the relative airflow differences? I > > > thought that the EGT-A/F connection wasn't very exact...but > > > I'm certainly no expert. > > > > > > > > - Brian > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Dave Dahlgren [mailto:ddahlgren at snet.net] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:15 PM > > > > > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > > > > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sad part about this problem is that it most likely > > > > > changes with rpm as well > > > > > that is to say they can move around. a rich one at 4500 might > > > > > be a lean one at > > > > > 6000. You could probably verify they stay the same by using > > > > > some egt probes and > > > > > data logging them along with rpm map and tps..Above all i > > > > > think i would only > > > > > want to add fuel.. Best idea is get a better intake manifold. > > > > > Dave > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From diy-efi-d at t-n-e.com Wed Feb 12 17:32:20 2003 From: diy-efi-d at t-n-e.com (Phil Hunter) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:32:20 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Affordable accelerometer? Message-ID: Is free affordable enough? Well...okay...$15 shipping & handling. Check the Dec. 2002 archives. The "GW" parts aren't what I thunked, they're SMD and you'll need something like a Syntax M13161 SO to DIP adapter board if you want a DIP pattern, ~ $4USD. Put elecrical tape or other insulator under the SMD part before soldering. Check http://www.rayming.com for a distributor of the adapter PCBs. > I have been trying to just use the gear ratios and RPM rate of > change to infer G-force, but the data isn't "clean" enough to > get a steady reading. Lot's of peaks and valleys. Flywheel/torque converter inertia can affect H/P calcs during shifts. rgds, philh (digest) _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bcroe at juno.com Wed Feb 12 23:19:17 2003 From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:19:17 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Affordable accelerometer? Message-ID: it only takes a low pass filter to convert PWM to DC. Some caps and resistors. Bruce Roe 12 Feb 2003 "Amenson Scott " writes: > I posted my accelerometer suggestion before > looking at the data sheet...that > accelerometer outputs PWM not DC....sorry. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Sean.Richards at diageo.com Wed Feb 12 23:20:36 2003 From: Sean.Richards at diageo.com (Richards, Sean) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:20:36 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Richards, Sean Sent: 08 February 2003 15:24 To: 'diy+AF8-efi+AEA-diy-efi.org' Subject: 18t injector upgrade to more horses Importance: High has anyone here heard or know about any mods for the 18t engine's injectors ________________________________________________________________________ This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the Diageo Servicedesk on +44 (0) 131 319 6000 This footnote also confirms that this email has been scanned for all viruses by the Messagelabs SkyScan service. http://www.diageo.com ________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From pedward at apsoft.com Wed Feb 12 23:38:29 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:38:29 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: Changing the injectors will get you nowhere without drastically changing all of the motor. You never clarified whether you are referring to a VW 1.8t, but the assumption is. The 1.8t has a decent stock output, but without seriously tearing into the engine, injectors would do nothing for you. Like I mentioned before, about the only upgrade you can do is a Split Second boost controller. Beyond that it's drivability destroying, MIL lighting, low horsepower things like cold air intakes. I have heard too many complaints about cold air intakes on dubs, with little or no gain. If you are interesting in a Split Second BCS, contact me directly as I have one that has no use to me (new). --Perry On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 11:16:01PM -0000, Richards, Sean wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richards, Sean > Sent: 08 February 2003 15:24 > To: 'diy+AF8-efi+AEA-diy-efi.org' > Subject: 18t injector upgrade to more horses > Importance: High > > > has anyone here heard or know about any mods for the 18t engine's injectors -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From sfwilliams at comcast.net Thu Feb 13 00:00:08 2003 From: sfwilliams at comcast.net (Scott F. Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:00:08 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: Perry, what exactly do you mean by your statement: "Changing the injectors will get you nowhere without drastically changing all of the motor." Revamping the 1.8T top to bottom is not necessary to realize gains with bigger fuel injectors. Rather, it (like any other motor) will need more fuel once the dutycycle of the stock injectors is pushed beyond a safe point like 85%. The 1.8T seems to have an astonishingly low brake specific fuel consumption, but that doesn't mean that it can outright defy the laws of chemistry and physics. If your logic were solid, the factory wouldn't install bigger injectors in the 150, 180, and 225hp versions. The substantial difference between the factory 150/180hp and 225hp variants is the turbo -a KKK K03 versus the K04 -and engine management. Naturally, hotrodding the engine by oneself will involve similar mods to the factory route and will certainly necessitate injector upgrades after a point. This is all basic knowledge. So, I must be missing some more erudite point of yours. Please elaborate on what you're *really* saying. -- Scott F. Williams NJ Scirocco nut '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle Golf GTI 16v "rollycar" ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted." _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Thu Feb 13 00:12:44 2003 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:12:44 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: --- "Scott F. Williams" wrote: >> Changing the injectors will get you nowhere without >> drastically changing all of the motor. > The substantial difference between the factory > 150/180hp and 225hp variants is the turbo -a > KKK K03 versus the K04 -and engine management. Scott, while changing the ECU, possibly some sensors, injectors, fuel pressure regulator, and turbocharger don't really constitute "drastically changing ALL of the motor" (emphasis mine), it does constitute a very expensive and drastic change to a large part of the powertrain. I think you overreacted just a tad... ===== | Adam Wade 1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/ | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From pedward at apsoft.com Thu Feb 13 00:29:53 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:29:53 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: Scott, Just changing the injectors on a 150 or 180HP 1.8t *WON'T* do squat. You must have the NEED for larger injectors. In fact, all you do is piss off the computer and get bad gas mileage. The stock injectors are adequate for quite a bit of hotrodding on the stock motor. The issue with the stock motor is this: the Motronic ME systems will cut *fuel* if they cannot control the boost of the turbo. This is a self preservation feature. If you try to blindly increase boost (the most common way of making more power with OE turbo motors), you'll just piss off the computer and end up on the side of the road every time you dip into the throttle too much. Your choices for hotrodding the stock 1.8t are airflow improvements and boost manipulators such as the BCS. If you improve the airflow through the motor without futzing with boost, you'll realize HP gains. The first place to start is the intercooler. Upgrade to the 225HP TT intercoolers and you'll have less restriction and better cooling. The exhaust system is another good place to get power, bigger is better. But even with IC/exhaust/intake modifications, you *still* wouldn't need to touch the injectors. I'd say that you could pick up 20HP if you were really picky and worked at it. Drastic changes would be: compression change, bigger turbo, major intake work, TB upgrade, and porting. You would DEFINITELY need new injectors then. But what's $200 for injectors when you just dropped 4-5K doing the rest of the motor? My original reply was accurate and truthful. On a stock 1.8t, changing the injectors will get you nowhere. On a "bolt-on" 1.8t, it would still get you nowhere. It isn't until you upgrade the turbo and airflow capabilities of the motor that you'd need bigger injectors. --Perry On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 06:45:36PM -0500, Scott F. Williams wrote: > Perry, what exactly do you mean by your statement: > "Changing the injectors will get you nowhere without drastically changing > all of the motor." > > Revamping the 1.8T top to bottom is not necessary to realize gains with > bigger fuel injectors. Rather, it (like any other motor) will need more fuel > once the dutycycle of the stock injectors is pushed beyond a safe point like > 85%. The 1.8T seems to have an astonishingly low brake specific fuel > consumption, but that doesn't mean that it can outright defy the laws of > chemistry and physics. > > If your logic were solid, the factory wouldn't install bigger injectors in > the 150, 180, and 225hp versions. The substantial difference between the > factory 150/180hp and 225hp variants is the turbo -a KKK K03 versus the > K04 -and engine management. Naturally, hotrodding the engine by oneself will > involve similar mods to the factory route and will certainly necessitate > injector upgrades after a point. This is all basic knowledge. > > So, I must be missing some more erudite point of yours. Please elaborate on > what you're *really* saying. > -- > Scott F. Williams > NJ Scirocco nut > '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS > Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle > Golf GTI 16v "rollycar" > ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted." -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From sfwilliams at comcast.net Thu Feb 13 00:41:29 2003 From: sfwilliams at comcast.net (Scott F. Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:41:29 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: 18t injector upgrade to more horses Message-ID: Adam Wade wrote: > I think you overreacted just a tad... Oh, believe me, you. I'm not slamming, flaming, or even trying to school, Perry. Rather, I'm just soliciting a more thorough answer, that's all. And... now that I checked my email, I see that he just posted. :^) Very nice. -- Scott F. Williams NJ Scirocco nut '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle Golf GTI 16v "rollycar" ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted." _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From gerard at poboxes.com Thu Feb 13 21:46:52 2003 From: gerard at poboxes.com (Gerard) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:46:52 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Wire up of BMW M3 coils...? Message-ID: Hi! Would anyone know the pin-outs for the 3 pins on the E36 ignition coils? Just trying to figure how I'd wire them up with an aftermarket ECU. Also, if possible, I'd like to find out how each pin is connected inside the coil. Sorry for arb question. Thanks. Gerard. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Sid.Young at qml.com.au Thu Feb 13 21:59:42 2003 From: Sid.Young at qml.com.au (Sid.Young at qml.com.au) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:59:42 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Wire up of BMW M3 coils...? Message-ID: Hi, Just for my curiosity.... Is the BMW a distributorless ignition ? Do they have two HT leads on the coil? Sid -----Original Message----- From: Gerard [mailto:gerard at poboxes.com] Sent: Friday, 14 February 2003 7:43 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] Wire up of BMW M3 coils...? Hi! Would anyone know the pin-outs for the 3 pins on the E36 ignition coils? Just trying to figure how I'd wire them up with an aftermarket ECU. Also, if possible, I'd like to find out how each pin is connected inside the coil. Sorry for arb question. Thanks. Gerard. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From langwadt at ieee.org Fri Feb 14 16:50:09 2003 From: langwadt at ieee.org (Lasse Langwadt Christensen) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:50:09 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: Grant Beaty wrote: > I've always heard the monentum of the air (there is a lot of velocity going > thru the TB) causes it to not want to make a 90 degree turn into the first > cylinder, and instead builds up pressure at the rear of the manifold. Don't > know how true this is, its just what I've heard on other lists. > > Grant Beaty > snip not too long a goa there was a show about F1 on discovery, and they showed how a great deal of efford and simultion was put into an air bow design that would give an even distribution of air to the cylinders and not just ram it into those furthest back and I've heard that on some rallycross cars with right manifold design they can use as much as ? a bar more boost before getting it problems with detonation. I assume, without knowing, that' got to do with getting an even mixture on all cylinders, -Lasse _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From info at kempower.be Sat Feb 15 16:57:04 2003 From: info at kempower.be (Kempower Motorsport NV) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 13:57:04 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re:Wire up of BMW M3 coils...? (Gerard) Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============23141741689237705== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2D51A.0E2ECF90" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2D51A.0E2ECF90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, BMW coil connection : a.. pin 1 is signal from ECU/amplifier ("1") b.. pin 2 is GND ("4A") c.. pin 3 is +12 Volt ("15") Friendly Regards, Ing. JAN KEMPYNCK KEMPOWER motorsport N.V. Klaverbladstraat 25 B-3560 LUMMEN BELGIUM TEL +32 13 522608 FAX +32 13 522220 e-mail : info at kempower.be web : www.kempower.be ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2D51A.0E2ECF90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

BMW coil connection :

pin 1 is signal from ECU/amplifier=20 ("1")
pin 2 is GND ("4A")
pin 3 is +12 Volt = ("15")

Friendly Regards,

Ing. JAN KEMPYNCK
KEMPOWER = motorsport=20 N.V.
Klaverbladstraat 25
B-3560 LUMMEN
BELGIUM
TEL +32 13=20 522608
FAX +32 13 522220
e-mail : info at kempower.be
web : www.kempower.be

------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2D51A.0E2ECF90-- --===============23141741689237705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============23141741689237705==-- From erazmus at iinet.net.au Sat Feb 15 16:58:18 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 13:58:18 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re:Wire up of BMW M3 coils...? (Gerard) Message-ID: mmm, And here was I wondering the list was dead... Similar to the setup on my VL, cept 1 is signal, 2 is ground but +ve is through wiring looming already. I'm replacing my 500v NPN transistor with a mosfet driver as the saturation voltage with be lower so well see what happens in a few days, tah for the info - though I dont have a M3 (yet) rgds mike At 05:45 PM 15/2/2003 +0100, you wrote: >Hello, > >BMW coil connection : > a.. pin 1 is signal from ECU/amplifier ("1") > b.. pin 2 is GND ("4A") > c.. pin 3 is +12 Volt ("15") >Friendly Regards, > >Ing. JAN KEMPYNCK >KEMPOWER motorsport N.V. >Klaverbladstraat 25 >B-3560 LUMMEN >BELGIUM >TEL +32 13 522608 >FAX +32 13 522220 >e-mail : info at kempower.be >web : www.kempower.be > >Attachment Converted: "C:\MAIL\INCOMING\Diy_efiR" >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 15 18:32:41 2003 From: turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com (Toyota Supra) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 15:32:41 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 3d mappable AIC controller Message-ID: does anyone sell any electronic devices that will control 6 extra injectors based on boost, throttle position and rpm? i'd also like to have 3 or 4 GPO's (ground position outputs) that are fully mappable as well ...both of them controllable by software on a laptop i would guess that most stand alones could do this as well, but i do not need all of the other features incorportated into a stand alone thanks -j _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From hugh at sol.co.uk Sat Feb 15 21:12:40 2003 From: hugh at sol.co.uk (Hugh Keir) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:12:40 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing Message-ID: This is a big problem on tuned GTR skylines. There are several aftermarket plenums available but it is hard to judge their effectiveness. Simple fixes are to flow test your injectors and fit the richest at the rear, also to increase the injector duration on injector 5 and 6 if the ECU allows it. Hugh ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lasse Langwadt Christensen" To: "List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk" Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Intake manifold flow testing > Grant Beaty wrote: > > I've always heard the monentum of the air (there is a lot of velocity going > > thru the TB) causes it to not want to make a 90 degree turn into the first > > cylinder, and instead builds up pressure at the rear of the manifold. Don't > > know how true this is, its just what I've heard on other lists. > > > > Grant Beaty > > > snip > > > not too long a goa there was a show about F1 on discovery, and they > showed how a great deal of efford and simultion was put into an air bow > design that would give an even distribution of air to the cylinders and > not just ram it into those furthest back > > and I've heard that on some rallycross cars with right manifold > design they can use as much as ? a bar more boost before getting > it problems with detonation. I assume, without knowing, that' got > to do with getting an even mixture on all cylinders, > > -Lasse > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From pedward at apsoft.com Sat Feb 15 21:46:57 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:46:57 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 3d mappable AIC controller Message-ID: SDS makes an AIC. Have a look at sdsefi.com --Perry On Sat, Feb 15, 2003 at 01:27:02PM -0500, Toyota Supra wrote: > does anyone sell any electronic devices that will control 6 extra injectors > based on boost, throttle position and rpm? > i'd also like to have 3 or 4 GPO's (ground position outputs) that are fully > mappable as well > ...both of them controllable by software on a laptop > > > i would guess that most stand alones could do this as well, but i do not > need all of the other features incorportated into a stand alone > > thanks > > -j -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From gerard at poboxes.com Sat Feb 15 21:51:46 2003 From: gerard at poboxes.com (Gerard) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:51:46 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re:Wire up of BMW M3 coils...? (Gerard) Message-ID: > Hello, > > BMW coil connection : > > * pin 1 is signal from ECU/amplifier ("1") > * pin 2 is GND ("4A") > * pin 3 is +12 Volt ("15") Thanks. :) I am actually looking at a set of M3 coils as an option on my 5-cylinder engined project. The reason I am looking is that the coils I have right now don't have a history so I have no idea how to wire them up. I actually posted to this list regarding those coils a few months ago. They're also 3 pin connectors. I cut one of them up recently to see how they wire up. Had to burn off some sealeant (looked like phenolic) so didn't gain much knowledge. If I don't figure these out I might have to go for the M3 stuff. Now, to throw some more questions out there.... First, I would think that pin 1 is a ground signal for charging the primary. Does anything know if this is correct? For the technical bit; anyone know how these 3 pins (signal, GND amd +ve) are actually wired up together inside the coil? Am I correct in thinking that pins 2 and 3 are for the secondary coil and pins 1 and 2 for the primary (+ve feed and a ground control (no Major Tom nonsense now))? If I did a continuity and resistance test between the 3 pins and also the plug top connecting point, what should I expect to find? Sorry, what you are dealing with here is commonly known as an auto-electrical pleb. :) Some say "clueless" actually. :D Thanks. :) G. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Djfreggens at aol.com Sun Feb 16 06:49:38 2003 From: Djfreggens at aol.com (Djfreggens at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 03:49:38 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Coil on plug parts ? Message-ID: does anybody have any good refernces for Coil on plug parts. im looking to runa few coils with a DIS module on my honda. i was looking at the quad 4 setup but its integrated into the module and looks like a real pita to work around. does anybody have any technical data on the quad 4 setup etc ? or if anybody know of a good source for some saturated coils for COP that would be welcomed as well. thanx in adavcne Sean _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 16 23:58:17 2003 From: turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com (Toyota Supra) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 20:58:17 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique Message-ID: hi all, i need a schematic critique on the schematic housed below, it is in .jpg format or .psd http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/ i have included the psd in case someone wanted to edit it to something better specifics on it are as follows : variable resistor input, ranging from 0 to 3.5vDC circuit is to kill signal to normally open relay at 3.2vDC i would like approximately a tenth of a volt of hysteresis below is a link that i would like to use to control the reference voltage for pin 4 of the LM339 chip, will it work? http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/Power/lm317.htm thanks to all that look at this -j _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From passadao at hotmail.com Mon Feb 17 01:08:44 2003 From: passadao at hotmail.com (Ricky) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 22:08:44 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============63179819975733187== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0371_01C2D607.01597430" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0371_01C2D607.01597430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). 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------=_NextPart_000_0371_01C2D607.01597430-- --===============63179819975733187== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============63179819975733187==-- From pedward at apsoft.com Mon Feb 17 01:13:07 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 22:13:07 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Message-ID: Not only Virus free, content free as well. On Sun, Feb 16, 2003 at 10:01:49PM -0300, Ricky wrote: > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.455 / Virus Database: 255 - Release Date: 15/2/2003 -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From mbalntel at cfw.com Mon Feb 17 02:29:09 2003 From: mbalntel at cfw.com (Mark Bowers & Family) Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 23:29:09 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique Message-ID: Needs work.... - LM339 does not have drive output capable of sinking enough current for a relay drive, and it's an open collector output device so can only sink current, not drive current into the relay.. - So you need a driver stage after the LM339, and possibly an inversion of the logic. Didn't look at the ref schematic yet. You can write me at mbalntel at cfw.com Mark Bowers ----- Original Message ----- From: Toyota Supra To: Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 6:50 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique > hi all, > > i need a schematic critique on the schematic housed below, it is in .jpg > format or .psd > > http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/ > > i have included the psd in case someone wanted to edit it to something > better > > specifics on it are as follows : > > variable resistor input, ranging from 0 to 3.5vDC > circuit is to kill signal to normally open relay at 3.2vDC > i would like approximately a tenth of a volt of hysteresis > > > below is a link that i would like to use to control the reference voltage > for pin 4 of the LM339 chip, will it work? > > http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/Power/lm317.htm > > > thanks to all that look at this > > -j > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Mon Feb 17 04:16:53 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 01:16:53 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique Message-ID: A simple PNP driver would do the trick, no inversion... email if you want a sketch, rgds mike At 09:20 AM 16/2/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Needs work.... > >- LM339 does not have drive output capable of sinking enough current for a >relay drive, and it's an open collector output device so can only sink >current, not drive current into the relay.. >- So you need a driver stage after the LM339, and possibly an inversion of >the logic. > >Didn't look at the ref schematic yet. You can write me at mbalntel at cfw.com > >Mark Bowers > > >----- Original Message ----- From: Toyota Supra >To: >Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 6:50 PM >Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique > > >> hi all, >> >> i need a schematic critique on the schematic housed below, it is in .jpg >> format or .psd >> >> http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/ >> >> i have included the psd in case someone wanted to edit it to something >> better >> >> specifics on it are as follows : >> >> variable resistor input, ranging from 0 to 3.5vDC >> circuit is to kill signal to normally open relay at 3.2vDC >> i would like approximately a tenth of a volt of hysteresis >> >> >> below is a link that i would like to use to control the reference voltage >> for pin 4 of the LM339 chip, will it work? >> >> http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/Power/lm317.htm >> >> >> thanks to all that look at this >> >> -j >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From hernt at mindspring.com Mon Feb 17 04:19:02 2003 From: hernt at mindspring.com (Dave Harvey) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 01:19:02 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique Message-ID: J, To expand on Mark's comments, I suggest that you connect the output of the LM339 to the base of an NPN transistor and drive the relay with the transistor. Connect a 2.2K resistor from the LM339 output to +8V. Connect the transistor emitter to ground. Connect the relay between the collector and +12V (use a 12V relay). A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA for the relay coil. The LM339 output will now only swing 0.6V, so reduce R3 to 10K or so. With this configuration, the relay is energized when #1 > #2. If you want the opposite polarity, then swap the 2 pots and adjust the feedback resistor (R3) value to get the desired hysteresis. You might want to bypass Pin 4 to ground with 0.1uF to filter any noise pickup. Is the 47K pot located near the LM339? Also the flyback diode should connect across the relay coil. When a relay (or any inductor) is denergized, the voltage across the winding reverses. V = L * di/dt Feel free to contact me off-list if you like. -- Dave Mark Bowers & Family wrote: >Needs work.... > >- LM339 does not have drive output capable of sinking enough current for a >relay drive, and it's an open collector output device so can only sink >current, not drive current into the relay.. >- So you need a driver stage after the LM339, and possibly an inversion of >the logic. > >Didn't look at the ref schematic yet. You can write me at mbalntel at cfw.com > >Mark Bowers > > >----- Original Message ----- From: Toyota Supra >To: >Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 6:50 PM >Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique > > > > >>hi all, >> >>i need a schematic critique on the schematic housed below, it is in .jpg >>format or .psd >> >>http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/ >> >>i have included the psd in case someone wanted to edit it to something >>better >> >>specifics on it are as follows : >> >>variable resistor input, ranging from 0 to 3.5vDC >>circuit is to kill signal to normally open relay at 3.2vDC >>i would like approximately a tenth of a volt of hysteresis >> >> >>below is a link that i would like to use to control the reference voltage >>for pin 4 of the LM339 chip, will it work? >> >>http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/Power/lm317.htm >> >> >>thanks to all that look at this >> >>-j >> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Diy_efi mailing list >>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 17 07:02:07 2003 From: turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com (Toyota Supra) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 04:02:07 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique Message-ID: thanks for the reply dave! is this what you meant? http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic2.jpg (the photoshop file is schematic2.psd) is there an easy way to calculate hysteresis? also, i have the flyback connected to the positive side of the coil, should it be different? thanks again -j From: Dave Harvey >Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique >Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 20:13:42 -0800 > >J, >To expand on Mark's comments, I suggest that you connect the output of the >LM339 to the base of an NPN transistor and drive the relay with the >transistor. Connect a 2.2K resistor from the LM339 output to +8V. Connect >the transistor emitter to ground. Connect the relay between the collector >and +12V (use a 12V relay). A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA for the relay >coil. The LM339 output will now only swing 0.6V, so reduce R3 to 10K or so. >With this configuration, the relay is energized when #1 > #2. If you want >the opposite polarity, then swap the 2 pots and adjust the feedback >resistor (R3) value to get the desired hysteresis. You might want to bypass >Pin 4 to ground with 0.1uF to filter any noise pickup. Is the 47K pot >located near the LM339? Also the flyback diode should connect across the >relay coil. When a relay (or any inductor) is denergized, the voltage >across the winding reverses. > >V = L * di/dt > >Feel free to contact me off-list if you like. > >-- Dave > >Mark Bowers & Family wrote: > >>Needs work.... >> >>- LM339 does not have drive output capable of sinking enough current for a >>relay drive, and it's an open collector output device so can only sink >>current, not drive current into the relay.. >>- So you need a driver stage after the LM339, and possibly an inversion of >>the logic. >> >>Didn't look at the ref schematic yet. You can write me at mbalntel at cfw.com >> >>Mark Bowers >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Toyota Supra >>To: >>Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 6:50 PM >>Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique >> >> >> >> >>>hi all, >>> >>>i need a schematic critique on the schematic housed below, it is in .jpg >>>format or .psd >>> >>>http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/ >>> >>>i have included the psd in case someone wanted to edit it to something >>>better >>> >>>specifics on it are as follows : >>> >>>variable resistor input, ranging from 0 to 3.5vDC >>>circuit is to kill signal to normally open relay at 3.2vDC >>>i would like approximately a tenth of a volt of hysteresis >>> >>> >>>below is a link that i would like to use to control the reference voltage >>>for pin 4 of the LM339 chip, will it work? >>> >>>http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/Power/lm317.htm >>> >>> >>>thanks to all that look at this >>> >>>-j >>> >>> >>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >>>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Diy_efi mailing list >>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Diy_efi mailing list >>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> >> >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From phil at injec.com Mon Feb 17 14:41:02 2003 From: phil at injec.com (Phil Lamovie) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:41:02 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: Automotive relays need 180 to 250 mA pull in current. They can hold at half to a third if you care to P/H I would suggest something a little more robust like a BD139 NPN 80 volt 1100 mA and solid without a heatsink for this purpose. HTH phil _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Steve_Marteney at DRSOptronics.com Mon Feb 17 15:18:54 2003 From: Steve_Marteney at DRSOptronics.com (Marteney, Steve) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 12:18:54 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: Seems like you (or whoever) missed a decimal place in the above subject line. The Fairchild 2N2222A can carry currents up to 500mA and has a collector current abs max rating of 1.0A. The biggest problem is its ~300 Hfe requiring ~2mA of bias current to get that much current out of it. Some logic families can't do it (like trying to use an HC11 output directly which can only source/sink approx 500uA.) I would not be so hasty in steering someone away from the 2N2222A with inaccurate data. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Phil Lamovie [mailto:phil at injec.com] Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:38 AM To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Automotive relays need 180 to 250 mA pull in current. They can hold at half to a third if you care to P/H I would suggest something a little more robust like a BD139 NPN 80 volt 1100 mA and solid without a heatsink for this purpose. HTH phil _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bill.washington at nec.com.au Mon Feb 17 22:48:39 2003 From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 19:48:39 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique Message-ID: J, The following are basic circuit comments, I have not looked at it from a functional point of view. 1. Schematic 1 requires another protection diode on the relay drive (Anode to GND, Cathode to signal) to prevent the negative spike (when the relay is released from blowing the opamp. 2. Schematic 2 : a. Comment 1 applies. b. series resistor reqd between opamp and transistor base c. Transistor collector should go to +ve supply, Emitter should go to the relay coil. Regards Bill > >Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:50:49 -0500 From: "Toyota Supra" >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Precedence: list >Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >Message: 1 > >hi all, > >i need a schematic critique on the schematic housed below, it is in .jpg >format or .psd > >http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/ > >i have included the psd in case someone wanted to edit it to something >better > >specifics on it are as follows : > >variable resistor input, ranging from 0 to 3.5vDC >circuit is to kill signal to normally open relay at 3.2vDC >i would like approximately a tenth of a volt of hysteresis > > >below is a link that i would like to use to control the reference voltage >for pin 4 of the LM339 chip, will it work? > >http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/Power/lm317.htm > > >thanks to all that look at this > >-j > > > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bcroe at juno.com Mon Feb 17 23:46:26 2003 From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 20:46:26 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: Personally I'd use a good FET output, easily available with 200V rating and an insulated tab. Infinite current gain, you can reduce the power supply to a zener diode. Bruce Roe 17 Feb 2003 "Marteney, Steve" writes: > Seems like you (or whoever) missed a decimal place in the above > subject > line. The Fairchild 2N2222A can carry currents up to 500mA and has > a > collector current abs max rating of 1.0A. The biggest problem is > its ~300 > Hfe requiring ~2mA of bias current to get that much current out of > it. Some > logic families can't do it (like trying to use an HC11 output > directly which > can only source/sink approx 500uA.) > > I would not be so hasty in steering someone away from the 2N2222A > with > inaccurate data. > > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil Lamovie [mailto:phil at injec.com] > Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:38 AM > To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA > > > > > Automotive relays need 180 to 250 mA pull in current. > > They can hold at half to a third if you care to P/H > > I would suggest something a little more robust like a > BD139 NPN 80 volt 1100 mA and solid without a heatsink > for this purpose. > > > HTH > > phil > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From davygrvy at pobox.com Tue Feb 18 01:12:16 2003 From: davygrvy at pobox.com (David Gravereaux) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:12:16 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: bcroe at juno.com wrote: >Personally I'd use a good FET output, easily available with >200V rating and an insulated tab. Infinite current gain, you >can reduce the power supply to a zener diode. 11 cents (in bulk) for a TO-92 2N2222A vs. ~$2.50 for a TO-220 FET output driver. Arrange it in a darlington if you want more base gain and stay with the cheap stuff. It's just a switch and either it's off or saturated. There's minimal heat from a saturated transistor -- aka class-D. It's running it linear where you need to concern yourself about vce drop equaling heat dissipation (mostly). -- David Gravereaux [species: human; planet: earth,milkyway(western spiral arm),alpha sector] _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From pedward at apsoft.com Tue Feb 18 01:23:15 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:23:15 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: An even simpler and cheaper solution is one of the following: MPSA27 (TO-92) MPSA28 (TO-92) NTE 46 (TO-92) Those are 500ma Darlingtons at about 14 cents a piece in bulk. They have a gain of 10,000. Base current is then unimportant. Digikey doesn't have any of the above in stock, but they do have the MPSA63, it's rated for max continuous collector current of 1.2A and has a gain between 5,000 and 10,000. It's also 26 cents for 1, 19.8 for 25, and 13.73 at 100. --Perry > 11 cents (in bulk) for a TO-92 2N2222A vs. ~$2.50 for a TO-220 FET output > driver. Arrange it in a darlington if you want more base gain and stay > with the cheap stuff. It's just a switch and either it's off or > saturated. There's minimal heat from a saturated transistor -- aka > class-D. It's running it linear where you need to concern yourself about > vce drop equaling heat dissipation (mostly). > -- > David Gravereaux -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From kaizen__ at hotmail.com Tue Feb 18 02:14:53 2003 From: kaizen__ at hotmail.com (Bevan Weiss) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:14:53 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: > An even simpler and cheaper solution is one of the following: > > MPSA27 (TO-92) > MPSA28 (TO-92) > NTE 46 (TO-92) > > Those are 500ma Darlingtons at about 14 cents a piece in bulk. They have > a gain of 10,000. Base current is then unimportant. Base current doesn't become unimportant with this gain, that means that an Ic of 500mA will see a base current of 50uA. Now this may seem pretty low, but it means that you can only drive 8 of these from a standard digital source (assuming source current max = 400uA typical). A FET is my preferred way of interfacing any digital signals... it has an incredibly low leakage, and a very fast turn on time (depending only on gate capacitence and drive resistance). > Digikey doesn't have any of the above in stock, but they do have the MPSA63, > it's rated for max continuous collector current of 1.2A and has a gain > between 5,000 and 10,000. It's also 26 cents for 1, 19.8 for 25, and 13.73 > at 100. If it's a DIY thing, then price doesn't play as big a role as it would in OEM decisions. The better design decisions can be made without compromise. If you're dealing with digital devices (which use voltage levels for signalling) then it makes sense to use a voltage sensing device as the switch. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From pedward at apsoft.com Tue Feb 18 02:50:06 2003 From: pedward at apsoft.com (Perry Harrington) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:50:06 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: Bevan, "only 8", who wants to drive 8 of these off a single port? If it concerns you, drive them off another transistor with a pullup. This discussion has gotten way away from the original application: driving a relay. The chip driving the transistor can put out 20-25ma of drive current (LM339), so there is no issue with a standard 2N2222, much less the darlington. The darlington suggestion was due to a single device driven off an MCU. Of course all applications will vary depending on the MCU or other driver. --Perry > > An even simpler and cheaper solution is one of the following: > > > > MPSA27 (TO-92) > > MPSA28 (TO-92) > > NTE 46 (TO-92) > > > > Those are 500ma Darlingtons at about 14 cents a piece in bulk. They have > > a gain of 10,000. Base current is then unimportant. > > Base current doesn't become unimportant with this gain, that means that an > Ic of 500mA will see a base current of 50uA. Now this may seem pretty low, > but it means that you can only drive 8 of these from a standard digital > source (assuming source current max = 400uA typical). A FET is my preferred > way of interfacing any digital signals... it has an incredibly low leakage, > and a very fast turn on time (depending only on gate capacitence and drive > resistance). > > > Digikey doesn't have any of the above in stock, but they do have the > MPSA63, > > it's rated for max continuous collector current of 1.2A and has a gain > > between 5,000 and 10,000. It's also 26 cents for 1, 19.8 for 25, and > 13.73 > > at 100. > > If it's a DIY thing, then price doesn't play as big a role as it would in > OEM decisions. The better design decisions can be made without compromise. > If you're dealing with digital devices (which use voltage levels for > signalling) then it makes sense to use a voltage sensing device as the > switch. -- Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. -- Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 18 02:55:43 2003 From: turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com (Toyota Supra) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:55:43 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique (???) Message-ID: hey bill, i have modified the circuit per your and some others advice, i must say that i am thoroughly confused now with the different versions that it has went through, so i am relying that this will function, else i won't know which values to alter ??? :) here is the latest photoshopped schematic, version 3.0 http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic3.psd http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic3.jpg are the values and placements of the components on par as well? lmk, thanks for the help all -j From: Bill Washington >Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique >Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:39:32 +1100 > >J, > The following are basic circuit comments, I have not looked at it from >a functional point of view. > >1. Schematic 1 requires another protection diode on the relay drive (Anode >to GND, Cathode to signal) to prevent the negative spike (when the relay is >released from blowing the opamp. > >2. Schematic 2 : >a. Comment 1 applies. >b. series resistor reqd between opamp and transistor base >c. Transistor collector should go to +ve supply, Emitter should go to the >relay coil. > >Regards >Bill > >> >>Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:50:49 -0500 >>From: "Toyota Supra" >>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique >>Message-ID: >>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Precedence: list >>Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >>Message: 1 >> >>hi all, >> >>i need a schematic critique on the schematic housed below, it is in .jpg >>format or .psd >> >>http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/ >> >>i have included the psd in case someone wanted to edit it to something >>better >> >>specifics on it are as follows : >> >>variable resistor input, ranging from 0 to 3.5vDC >>circuit is to kill signal to normally open relay at 3.2vDC >>i would like approximately a tenth of a volt of hysteresis >> >> >>below is a link that i would like to use to control the reference voltage >>for pin 4 of the LM339 chip, will it work? >> >>http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/Power/lm317.htm >> >> >>thanks to all that look at this >> >>-j >> >> >> >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From davygrvy at pobox.com Tue Feb 18 02:58:59 2003 From: davygrvy at pobox.com (David Gravereaux) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:58:59 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: "Bevan Weiss" wrote: >If it's a DIY thing, then price doesn't play as big a role as it would in >OEM decisions. The better design decisions can be made without compromise. Very true. I forget that after getting beat-up by the person doing the purchasing :) http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/J1/J108.pdf Something like that? -- David Gravereaux [species: human; planet: earth,milkyway(western spiral arm),alpha sector] _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Tue Feb 18 04:22:38 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 01:22:38 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: I've been using BC548 types I get for 0.04c each here in Oz, rgds mike At 05:18 PM 2/17/03 -0800, you wrote: >An even simpler and cheaper solution is one of the following: > > MPSA27 (TO-92) > MPSA28 (TO-92) > NTE 46 (TO-92) > >Those are 500ma Darlingtons at about 14 cents a piece in bulk. They have >a gain of 10,000. Base current is then unimportant. > >Digikey doesn't have any of the above in stock, but they do have the MPSA63, >it's rated for max continuous collector current of 1.2A and has a gain >between 5,000 and 10,000. It's also 26 cents for 1, 19.8 for 25, and 13.73 >at 100. > >--Perry > >> 11 cents (in bulk) for a TO-92 2N2222A vs. ~$2.50 for a TO-220 FET output >> driver. Arrange it in a darlington if you want more base gain and stay >> with the cheap stuff. It's just a switch and either it's off or >> saturated. There's minimal heat from a saturated transistor -- aka >> class-D. It's running it linear where you need to concern yourself about >> vce drop equaling heat dissipation (mostly). >> -- >> David Gravereaux > >-- >Perry Harrington Data Acquisition & Instrumentation, Inc >perry at dainst dot com http://www.dainst.com/ > >Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety >deserve neither liberty or safety. Nor, are they likely to end up with either. > -- Benjamin Franklin > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From brian at dessent.net Tue Feb 18 07:05:11 2003 From: brian at dessent.net (Brian Dessent) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 04:05:11 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: Perry Harrington wrote: > Digikey doesn't have any of the above in stock, but they do have the MPSA63, > it's rated for max continuous collector current of 1.2A and has a gain > between 5,000 and 10,000. It's also 26 cents for 1, 19.8 for 25, and 13.73 > at 100. Not to feed the flames but remember that a darlington has terrible saturation voltages. Look at the datasheet: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/MP/MPSA64.pdf (that is the mpsa64, but the mpsa63 datasheet refers to this one for the characterizations.) 1.2A is the absolute maximum Ic. If you look at the graph of Vce(sat) vs. Ic, you'll see that at 1A, Vce(sat) is about 1.6V, and that's at a beta of 1000, let alone your suggestion of 5000 or 10000. 1.6W dissipated through a to-92? In an automotive environment? You've got to be kidding me, that's over twice the rated max. Even at Ic=500mA, you're still dissipating about 550mW which is marginal for to-92. Why nickel and dime? Get a FET for $1 and never worry about heat dissipation. I don't think the OP was building these in bulk and so the cost of $0.26 vs a dollar or so matters little. Brian _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From sravet at arm.com Tue Feb 18 18:26:46 2003 From: sravet at arm.com (steve ravet) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:26:46 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] DIY-EFI References Message-ID: I missed the first part of this thread... Where can you get info on the manufacturer specific portions of the OBD2 spec (at any price)? --steve (half a mile south of you on Cap of Tx. Hwy). > At 11:23 AM 6/2/2003 -0800, you wrote: > >HI there... > > I've been looking long and hard... and I have stumbled upon you... > > > > -Do you have a copy of j2205 (cancelled in '99). Or better yet, > information on the J2190 routines commands(manufacter'er reserved $30-$3f). > > > > I just can't seem to get this information anywhere... (or I CAN, if I > want to spend $5,000...) > > > > Thanks, > > > >Michael A. Wyborny > >Qlogic > >805 Las Cimas Parkway, Suite 200 > >Austin, Texas. 78746 > >Michael.wyborny at qlogic.com > >fax # 512-330-9057 -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet at arm.com ARM,Inc. www.arm.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bill.washington at nec.com.au Tue Feb 18 23:00:22 2003 From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:00:22 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique Message-ID: --===============83946413929343544== Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------070602010301030101090106" --------------070602010301030101090106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J, Perhaps my suggestions weren't very clear, so I'll try to clarify: 1. The diode you have added is connected back to front. (Diode => ANODE -|>|- CATHODE) 2. the Collector of the transistor should go to +8 or +12 V supply depending on the relay's coil voltage, not to the + input of the Opamp! 3. change R5 to 1k Ohm 4. delete C3, Opamp inputs must not be capacitively coupled, 5. With the above changes, the circuit will work opposite to description IE #1>~#2 => #3 = 8V..... #1<~#2 => #3 = 0V 6. R3 adds hysteresis, therefore the switching point will not be when #1=#2. 7. Delete R4, it serves no purpose. If #2 is directly connected to U1 pin 4, #3 will switch to 8V when #1 rises above 3.232Vand remain there until #1 drops below 3.152V, at which time #3 will switch back to 0V. I hope this helps. Regards Bill > Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:51:01 -0500 From: "Toyota Supra" > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: > [Diy_efi] schematic critique (???) Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; > format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Reply-To: List for > general do-it-yourself EFI talk Message: 7 hey > bill, i have modified the circuit per your and some others advice, i > must say that i am thoroughly confused now with the different versions > that it has went through, so i am relying that this will function, > else i won't know which values to alter ??? :) here is the latest > photoshopped schematic, version 3.0 > http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic3.psd > http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic3.jpg are the values and > placements of the components on par as well? lmk, thanks for the help > all -j > >>>Fro >> --------------070602010301030101090106-- --===============83946413929343544== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============83946413929343544==-- From bcroe at juno.com Wed Feb 19 00:33:33 2003 From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:33:33 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: A few more comments here: While I pay 80 cents for FETs in 100s, I don't think a couple quarters are the issue here. I am going to assume the relay coil may be on the plus or minus side of the coil driver to allow the most common parts. As mentioned, bipolar and darlingtons are what we had to use before FETs came along. My 80 cent FET will get me a huge improvement in current gain (infinite), voltage rating (I NEVER go below 100V in auto circuits), and saturation voltage. The low sat also fixes heat problems, and sometimes the FET can just replace the RELAY outright. The IRFI530N has an insulated tab that may be bolted directly to any heat sink, 0.15 V drop at 1 A (thats .15W), 100V rating (use 630 for 200V), and no drive current req. Assuming we have the 339 driving an N channel FET with a 47K pullup to the 339 supply, let's address another problem. The 7808 V reg is wide open to transients coming from the battery (the starter can generate 300V for microseconds, just long enough to take out V regulators). We only need 2 ma for the 339, and maybe another 1or 2 for 47K pullup and input circuit. So replace the $1 7808 with a $0.02 390 resistor from the battery to a $0.11 10V zener diode to ground. The zener will clip any spikes that come along, even reverse polarity. The 390 will limit current for those brief overvoltages to prevent any damage. You can get a max of 10 ma off the zener, all you need with the drive requirement solved. You will need some kind of clipper to protect the FET output; perhaps a couple more 10V zeners source to drain, plus a 1N4004 diode across the coil ought to do it. Bruce Roe 17 Feb 2003 David Gravereaux writes: > bcroe at juno.com wrote: > > >Personally I'd use a good FET output, easily available with > >200V rating and an insulated tab. Infinite current gain, you > >can reduce the power supply to a zener diode. > > 11 cents (in bulk) for a TO-92 2N2222A vs. ~$2.50 for a TO-220 FET > output > driver. Arrange it in a darlington if you want more base gain and > stay > with the cheap stuff. It's just a switch and either it's off or > saturated. There's minimal heat from a saturated transistor -- aka > class-D. It's running it linear where you need to concern yourself > about > vce drop equaling heat dissipation (mostly). > -- > David Gravereaux _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Sid.Young at qml.com.au Wed Feb 19 00:46:52 2003 From: Sid.Young at qml.com.au (Sid.Young at qml.com.au) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:46:52 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA Message-ID: Sounds like good advice to safeguard automotive electronics. Sid -----Original Message----- From: bcroe at juno.com [mailto:bcroe at juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, 19 February 2003 11:27 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] A 2N2222A can handle up to 50mA A few more comments here: While I pay 80 cents for FETs in 100s, I don't think a couple quarters are the issue here. I am going to assume the relay coil may be on the plus or minus side of the coil driver to allow the most common parts. As mentioned, bipolar and darlingtons are what we had to use before FETs came along. My 80 cent FET will get me a huge improvement in current gain (infinite), voltage rating (I NEVER go below 100V in auto circuits), and saturation voltage. The low sat also fixes heat problems, and sometimes the FET can just replace the RELAY outright. The IRFI530N has an insulated tab that may be bolted directly to any heat sink, 0.15 V drop at 1 A (thats .15W), 100V rating (use 630 for 200V), and no drive current req. Assuming we have the 339 driving an N channel FET with a 47K pullup to the 339 supply, let's address another problem. The 7808 V reg is wide open to transients coming from the battery (the starter can generate 300V for microseconds, just long enough to take out V regulators). We only need 2 ma for the 339, and maybe another 1or 2 for 47K pullup and input circuit. So replace the $1 7808 with a $0.02 390 resistor from the battery to a $0.11 10V zener diode to ground. The zener will clip any spikes that come along, even reverse polarity. The 390 will limit current for those brief overvoltages to prevent any damage. You can get a max of 10 ma off the zener, all you need with the drive requirement solved. You will need some kind of clipper to protect the FET output; perhaps a couple more 10V zeners source to drain, plus a 1N4004 diode across the coil ought to do it. Bruce Roe 17 Feb 2003 David Gravereaux writes: > bcroe at juno.com wrote: > > >Personally I'd use a good FET output, easily available with > >200V rating and an insulated tab. Infinite current gain, you > >can reduce the power supply to a zener diode. > > 11 cents (in bulk) for a TO-92 2N2222A vs. ~$2.50 for a TO-220 FET > output > driver. Arrange it in a darlington if you want more base gain and > stay > with the cheap stuff. It's just a switch and either it's off or > saturated. There's minimal heat from a saturated transistor -- aka > class-D. It's running it linear where you need to concern yourself > about > vce drop equaling heat dissipation (mostly). > -- > David Gravereaux _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From remy.sabale at analog.com Wed Feb 19 01:21:02 2003 From: remy.sabale at analog.com (Sabale, Remy) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 22:21:02 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] efi system on two stokes engines Message-ID: What is the basic needs in order to EFI my scooter with 50cc 2stroke = Yamaha engine ? _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From mbalntel at cfw.com Wed Feb 19 02:17:49 2003 From: mbalntel at cfw.com (Mark Bowers & Family) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:17:49 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique (???) Message-ID: HI J, I just looked at your schematic #3; getting closer....but still needs some tweaks. I don't have any schematic SW anymore, but could sketch it up and FAX to you sometime. Then you could post it for the rest of the guys to blow away. Gotta FAX number?? And a 2N3904 is an alternate relay drive transistor, but does not support as much current draw as the 2N2222. The 2N3906 is the PNP version which if used may not require a logic inversion as I think someone mentioned..... - Do you know the coil resistance of the output relay coil? This may be important to make sure we size the output transistor correctly. - Also, can you give some more details on the drive source to the circuit? Is it some sort of sensor? (I am sure it is some sort of 1000+ HP performance mod for a MotoGuzzi, but you can trust us...) - Does this need to be a particularly fast response time? Adding capacitors in the signal circuits will add time response delay (as well as filtering out unwanted noise), so some care is needed to account for the desried time response of the circuit. - One final question: Is voltage #1 intended to be the reference that you set, and voltage #2 the input form the sensor or whatever? Are we helping yet???? Mark B. PS My response cycle time is at least a day.....gotta work for a living..... ----- Original Message ----- From: Toyota Supra To: Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 9:51 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] schematic critique (???) > > hey bill, i have modified the circuit per your and some others advice, i > must say that i am thoroughly confused now with the different versions that > it has went through, so i am relying that this will function, else i won't > know which values to alter ??? :) > > here is the latest photoshopped schematic, version 3.0 > > http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic3.psd > http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic3.jpg > > are the values and placements of the components on par as well? lmk, thanks > for the help all > > -j > > > > > > > >From: Bill Washington > >Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique > >Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:39:32 +1100 > > > >J, > > The following are basic circuit comments, I have not looked at it from > >a functional point of view. > > > >1. Schematic 1 requires another protection diode on the relay drive (Anode > >to GND, Cathode to signal) to prevent the negative spike (when the relay is > >released from blowing the opamp. > > > >2. Schematic 2 : > >a. Comment 1 applies. > >b. series resistor reqd between opamp and transistor base > >c. Transistor collector should go to +ve supply, Emitter should go to the > >relay coil. > > > >Regards > >Bill > > > >> > >>Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:50:49 -0500 > >>From: "Toyota Supra" > >>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >>Subject: [Diy_efi] need schematic critique > >>Message-ID: > >>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >>MIME-Version: 1.0 > >>Precedence: list > >>Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > >>Message: 1 > >> > >>hi all, > >> > >>i need a schematic critique on the schematic housed below, it is in .jpg > >>format or .psd > >> > >>http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/ > >> > >>i have included the psd in case someone wanted to edit it to something > >>better > >> > >>specifics on it are as follows : > >> > >>variable resistor input, ranging from 0 to 3.5vDC > >>circuit is to kill signal to normally open relay at 3.2vDC > >>i would like approximately a tenth of a volt of hysteresis > >> > >> > >>below is a link that i would like to use to control the reference voltage > >>for pin 4 of the LM339 chip, will it work? > >> > >>http://www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/Power/lm317.htm > >> > >> > >>thanks to all that look at this > >> > >>-j > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Diy_efi mailing list > >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Wed Feb 19 03:56:17 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 00:56:17 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Wire up of BMW M3 coils...? Message-ID: Hi Gerard, Not sure why you are emailling me, we have a list so people can respond if they want to, I think you misunderstood - I *dont* have am M3. I am on 9 tech lists and a few social ones and keep things fairly well filtered so I am up to my ears in emails... It also seems you've answered some of your own questions in your speculations and you seem to know what to do to set one up on a bench and see if it fires. So go ahead and fire something up and if it works fine if not then ask the list. Also I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, to learn about M3 coils ? then go see BMW or experiment - I really dont see how I can help you when the list - that has more intellectual muscle then me - has more experience in identifying components from other vehicles - I dont have an M3 and there are bound to be a large number of varitions in ignition systems design. If it was me, I'd construct a bench setup and experiment to get a spark after either asking BMW for a schema and/or going to the local reference library for a workshop manual extract. rgds mike At 10:41 PM 18/2/2003 +0200, you wrote: >> mmm, And here was I wondering the list was dead... >> >> Similar to the setup on my VL, cept 1 is signal, 2 is ground >> but +ve is through wiring looming already. I'm replacing >> my 500v NPN transistor with a mosfet driver as the saturation >> voltage with be lower so well see what happens in a few days, >> >> tah for the info - though I dont have a M3 (yet) >> >> rgds >> >> mike > >Hi Mike, > >I was wondering if you'd be of some assistance to me. I have had some >coils in my possession for about 3 months now and not too clued up how >they work. That's why I was querying the EFI list regarding M3 units. > >I'm going to throw some ideas your way, could you let me know if I've >got my story right or should be shot for what I am thinking. > >First of all, these coils are 3-pin items. I can't even find connectors >for them. I cut one up recently and it contains now extra funny >electronics, just a plain simple coil it seems. > >I've run a continuity test on the pins, casing and plug-top connector at >the high voltage output point of the coil. Here is what I have found: > > pin 1 and pin 3 are connected, but not connected to > anything else (i.e., no path to casing ground or plug > connection point > > pin 2 is connected to the coil mounting point/tab and > connected to the plug connection point > > resistance from pin 2 to casing mount is around 0.8 Ohms. > resistance from pin 2 to plug point is 10.8 KOhms. > > resistance from pin 1 to pin 3 is about 1.1 Ohms > >From this I deduced that pin 1 and pin 3 are wire-ups for the primary >coil. Pin 2 must therefore be a separate +ve feed for the secondary coil >and this continuously "vents" to the casing ground until the secondary >fires the plug. > >If I recall correctly the primary was wound anti-clockwise down metal >core, but doesn't give me much clue as to which of pin 1 or pin 3 is the >+ve feed or the -ve feed. > >Pin 1 or pin 3 must be a ground signal from the ECU to charge coil. I >guess maybe not such a big issue which way round, but it'd probably lose >some voltage if the plug fires the wrong way. > >Now, looking at the pins out I saw on diy-efi regarding the M3 coils and >your VL items (what's a VL, by the way? :)), I would reckon the +12v on >those M3 items is for the secondary, the ground is to the ECU and that >pin 1 (signal) is therefore a +ve feed. Is that right? > >Unless ofcourse those M3 things use some form of internal transistor to >hook the +12V to the ground pin to charge the primary and that +12v >input also feeds the secondary which grounds through the plug and >mounting point. The signal for the transistor comes from the ECU through >pin 1 on the M3 coil. What do you reckon? > >I'm thinking in my case I'd need a ECU with proper transistors to >control that ground signal for the primary coil. > >Really sorry about asking these questions directly, but thought I'd ask >someone who probably had his hands on COP coils. I have asked the >diy-efi list, but have had zero feedback. > >Do the coils I describe make any sense? There seem like COP versions of >general coils, except that a +12V feed has been given 2 separate entry >points. > >Once again, sorry for such nonsense, confused questions. Feel free to >ignore these if they're oddballs. :) > >Thanks. > >Gerard. > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 19 04:20:48 2003 From: turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com (Toyota Supra) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 01:20:48 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique Message-ID: hi bill! ok, i deleted R4 and C3, i ran the collector of the transistor to 12vDC, (i don't know if it'll require the 8v or the 12v, but i chose 12v because it will be driving a 30amp bosch automotive relay, hopefully that was the right decision) . i changed R5 to 1k now, here is where i am not sure i understand, i have D1 and D2, one allows negative to flow to positive, and the other, positive to flow to negative. i'm not sure which type of kickback the relay will have, but they are on the positive side of the coil? i am guessing i only need 1 diode instead of two, but let me know. i also have two renditions, links seen here with the 47k potentiometer http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic4.jpg http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic4.psd without the 47k potentiometer http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic5.jpg http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic5.psd it sounds to me, as if you would like me to stick with the "schematic5" rendition, but i wanted to put up both options and get your opinion for sure, number 4 might be used to take a voltage signal and drop it to the desired 3.2vDC reference signal???? .... thanks soooo much for the guidance throughout this -j From: Bill Washington >Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique >Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:52:19 +1100 > >J, > Perhaps my suggestions weren't very clear, so I'll try to clarify: > >1. The diode you have added is connected back to front. (Diode => ANODE >-|>|- CATHODE) >2. the Collector of the transistor should go to +8 or +12 V supply >depending on the relay's coil voltage, not to the + input of the Opamp! >3. change R5 to 1k Ohm >4. delete C3, Opamp inputs must not be capacitively coupled, >5. With the above changes, the circuit will work opposite to description IE >#1>~#2 => #3 = 8V..... #1<~#2 => #3 = 0V >6. R3 adds hysteresis, therefore the switching point will not be when >#1=#2. >7. Delete R4, it serves no purpose. > >If #2 is directly connected to U1 pin 4, #3 will switch to 8V when #1 rises >above 3.232Vand remain there until #1 drops below 3.152V, at which time #3 >will switch back to 0V. > >I hope this helps. >Regards >Bill > > > > >>Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 21:51:01 -0500 From: "Toyota Supra" >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] >>schematic critique (???) Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; >>format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Reply-To: List for >>general do-it-yourself EFI talk Message: 7 hey bill, >>i have modified the circuit per your and some others advice, i must say >>that i am thoroughly confused now with the different versions that it has >>went through, so i am relying that this will function, else i won't know >>which values to alter ??? :) here is the latest photoshopped schematic, >>version 3.0 http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic3.psd >>http://68.7.7.84:8080/schematics/schematic3.jpg are the values and >>placements of the components on par as well? lmk, thanks for the help all >>-j >> >>>>Fro >>> > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From beebe_mike at comcast.net Wed Feb 19 04:36:08 2003 From: beebe_mike at comcast.net (Michael Beebe) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 01:36:08 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique Message-ID: Is this circuit for your fuel tank transfer pump? Just curious. Mike _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 19 04:40:32 2003 From: turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com (Toyota Supra) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 01:40:32 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique Message-ID: if it works :) (you have a good memory mike!) From: Michael Beebe >Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] schematic critique >Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:30:28 -0500 > >Is this circuit for your fuel tank transfer pump? Just curious. > >Mike > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Wed Feb 19 04:44:43 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 01:44:43 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique Message-ID: What the heck is wrong with just a pipe and a takeoff at the lowest point ? rgds mike At 11:36 PM 18/2/2003 -0500, you wrote: >if it works :) > >(you have a good memory mike!) > > > > > > >>From: Michael Beebe >>Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >>To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] schematic critique >>Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:30:28 -0500 >> >>Is this circuit for your fuel tank transfer pump? Just curious. >> >>Mike >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Diy_efi mailing list >>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 19 05:07:34 2003 From: turbosupramk3 at hotmail.com (Toyota Supra) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 02:07:34 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique Message-ID: it would be taken out by the driveshaft, and if i put it below the driveshaft, it would be taken out by speed bumps and road debris otherwise, i would have LOVED such a simple option -j From: Mike >Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] schematic critique >Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:40:25 > >What the heck is wrong with just a pipe and a takeoff at the >lowest point ? > >rgds > >mike > > >At 11:36 PM 18/2/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >if it works :) > > > >(you have a good memory mike!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>From: Michael Beebe > >>Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > >>To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk > >>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] schematic critique > >>Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:30:28 -0500 > >> > >>Is this circuit for your fuel tank transfer pump? Just curious. > >> > >>Mike > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Diy_efi mailing list > >>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Diy_efi mailing list > >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From erazmus at iinet.net.au Wed Feb 19 05:35:40 2003 From: erazmus at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 02:35:40 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] schematic critique Message-ID: mmmm, This is interesting, (for me) something doesnt sound right or I am way off in my understanding of what I speculate is an existing (factory) fuel tank configuration or is an afftermarket fuel tank. Is the lowest point of both fuel tanks lower than the driveshaft ? Are they original factory tanks in original location ? Do you have a pic/sketch of the setup ? Having said that I recall a setup some years ago where a chap added an extra tank, the lowest part was just below the middle of his diff, he moved the existing low pressure in tank pump from the old tank to the new and left the outside tank high pressure pump in its old location. rgds mike At 12:01 AM 19/2/2003 -0500, you wrote: >it would be taken out by the driveshaft, and if i put it below the >driveshaft, it would be taken out by speed bumps and road debris > >otherwise, i would have LOVED such a simple option > >-j > > > > > > >>From: Mike >>Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >>To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] schematic critique >>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:40:25 >> >>What the heck is wrong with just a pipe and a takeoff at the >>lowest point ? >> >>rgds >> >>mike >> >> >>At 11:36 PM 18/2/2003 -0500, you wrote: >> >if it works :) >> > >> >(you have a good memory mike!) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >>From: Michael Beebe >> >>Reply-To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk >> >>To: List for general do-it-yourself EFI talk