Message: 1 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:46:31 -0500 (EST) From: mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com Subject: [Diy_efi] Continuing the chip switcher problem To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Message-ID: <4860.67.121.93.112.1108079191.squirrel at www.speedymotorsports.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Hello Everyone, I had asked the question eariler in regards to creating a mulitple bank chip switcher for an ecm. Everyone basically said I should be able to just switch the chip without any regard for whether the chip is being accessed during the switch. I finally got my pic chip controller up and running. I'm running at 20mhz, and when I do a switch I'm still getting a check engine light. 2 out of three times. Thinking about this, I put the same exact bin in each of the banks of the chip, and still get the same response. Could it not be that I'm switching in the middle of a read, and that is causing this problem??? What does everyone think. If I turn the car off, and do the switch no problem. I'm using this on a 1991 acura integra....had a 27c256 as the base chip, and I'm using a 29c010 as the replacement. I'm controlling the highest two address lines as bank select for a total of 4 banks. I'll put the info for chip changer on my webesite, and add a link to it tonight. Any ideas??? Thanks, Marcello ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:57:41 -0500 From: David Cooley <n5xmt at bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Continuing the chip switcher problem To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI <diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Message-ID: <1108079861.4995.6.camel at n5xmt.bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain I think it all depends on how the ECM is accessing the chip... I know this wasn't a problem on GM's at least thru 95... On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 18:46 -0500, mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com wrote:

Hello Everyone, I had asked the question eariler in regards to creating a mulitple bank chip switcher for an ecm. Everyone basically said I should be able to just switch the chip without any regard for whether the chip is being accessed during the switch. I finally got my pic chip controller up and running. I'm running at 20mhz, and when I do a switch I'm still getting a check engine light. 2 out of three times. Thinking about this, I put the same exact bin in each of the banks of the chip, and still get the same response. Could it not be that I'm switching in the middle of a read, and that is causing this problem??? What does everyone think. If I turn the car off, and do the switch no problem. I'm using this on a 1991 acura integra....had a 27c256 as the base chip, and I'm using a 29c010 as the replacement. I'm controlling the highest two address lines as bank select for a total of 4 banks. I'll put the info for chip changer on my webesite, and add a link to it tonight. Any ideas??? Thanks, Marcello _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

------------------------------ _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi End of diy_efi Digest, Vol 17, Issue 11 ***************************************

I think I would tend to clock the address changes through the '374 usin= g=20 not CE rather than not OE, but both would probably work just as well. =20= I=20 don't know any logic family (NMOS, CMOS, TTL, HCTTL etc) that would interpre= t=20 the logic level transitions you are seeing as going from logic 1 to logic=20 0. There must be a potential difference between the ground you are pic= king=20 up for the scope probe and the logic ground the memory device is seeing.

I don't think your problem is grounding, I think it's just the address=20= line=20 transitions being visible during read cycles.

Is your DSO set to couple the signals through into the Y channel as a D= C=20 signal or as AC?

It should be set for a DC signal of course.

Will

-------------------------------1108540972-- --===============64639891839897956== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============64639891839897956==-- From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 16 12:43:39 2005 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David Cooley) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:43:39 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Emissions Numbers... Message-ID: Not necessarily... Lean mixtures burn hotter, and heat is the main factor in generating Nox. EGR cools the burn and reduces Nox. > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Adam Wade > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:47 PM > To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Emissions Numbers... > > --- mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com wrote: > > > if you are going really lean, you'll see a rise in HC, big > rise, which > > you aren't seeing here. > > 'course, if he was going THAT lean, he'd have probably passed > on NOx, yes? Lots and lots of O2, lots of HC, almost no CO, > and fairly low CO2 and NOx. > > ===== > | 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | "It > | was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! > http://my.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From mfrels at ix.netcom.com Wed Feb 16 12:52:23 2005 From: mfrels at ix.netcom.com (Mike Frels) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:52:23 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Emissions Numbers... Message-ID: O2 gound is good to the exhaust manifold. A couple of weeks back I removed it, emery clothed the bung surface and sensor surfaces, and retorqued it. I'v got gaskets between the manifold and heads to seal off a non-flat manifold seal surface and earlier O2 leak so I don't know if I am getting an optimum ground to the block. I was planning for this coming weekend to install an LT1 O2 sensor so I could wire ground directly to the back of the head. Anyway...my scans show 160(lean) at idle/slow and the sniffer HCs are low, so to my smog test unexperienced mind the results seem to back up the lean condition. Also, my AIR system is functoning 100% and completely seals off flow from the exhaust manifolds on closed loop. I have verified this more than twice. Where can I do more reading on what the smog readings indicate? Mike -----Original Message----- From: Adam Wade Sent: Feb 15, 2005 8:50 PM To: Mike Frels , A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Emissions Numbers... --- Mike Frels wrote: > 15mph: > HC(ppm) std-152 reading-108 > CO(%) std-.86 reading-.37 > CO2(%) 13.3 > O2(%) 2.3 > NOx(ppm) std-1146 reading-1635(*FAIL*) > Dilution(%) std->6 reading-13.7 That looks frighteningly lean to me. I know on motorcycles, at "best power" you generally get something in the ballpark of less than 1% O2, about 10-11% CO2, under 1000 ppm HC, and 5-7% CO. The only way to get HC numbers that low, I would think, would be at or near stoich with a three-way cat, unless you run drastically lean. Your other readings sure look super-lean to me. > If I remember right high NOx numbers are usually a > result of high combustion temperatures due to lean > conditions. Well, conditions right around stoich, although you can lower the NOx with spark timing. I doubt you will be able to make the numbers without a cat, but if you can, it'll definitely improve things in the NOx department to retard the timing, thus lowering peak pressure, and thus combustion temperature. > I am thinking that I may have an injector or two on > the O2 sensor side of the engine that are either > somewhat clogged or not opening properly at low > speeds. I think you probably have it backwards. If it is in closed-loop mode, which I am assuming it would be (it would have to be to use the O2 sensor to adjust fueling in real-time), then you are probably RICH on the O2 sensor side, if anything, thus causing the sensor to lean the mixture. Have you checked your sensor to make sure that it is well-grounded, and that there are no spurious signals on the O2 sensor lead to the ECU? Is there maybe an air injection system that wasn't properly disabled? _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From mfrels at ix.netcom.com Wed Feb 16 14:48:29 2005 From: mfrels at ix.netcom.com (Mike Frels) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:48:29 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Emissions Numbers... Message-ID: By "hollowed out" I mean all the sandwiched catalyst bricks are missing from the converter shell. At 120K(9 years ago) the bricks came loose and were breaking up blocking the exhaust. Unbolt cat-back pipe - 10 to 15 minutes of strategic use of a crowbar - start and rev engine - reattach cat-back pipe. Do you know why the HCs rise on severe lean? Incomplete combustion due to the mixture being too lean to burn fast enough? Mike -----Original Message----- From: mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com Sent: Feb 15, 2005 8:57 PM To: Mike Frels , A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Emissions Numbers... Mike, I run these tests everyday here in Millbrae, California. We're right outside San Francisco. In running these test all the time I've seen that usually over-advanced ignition timing, or failure of the exhuast emissions systems bring about Nox failures. And We replace a lot of Catalytic converters. The newer test really tests the ability of the CAT where the two speed idle test really didn't. When you say your CAT is hollowed out - If it is considered a TWC - or Three-way Cat - then one part of the Cat is for lowering Nox emissions. On a lot of newer vehicles the only thing lowering Nox is the CAT. There is no EGR system. On big block 454's I've seen where everything was running really good the Nox numbers before the Cat were around 1600ppms. And after the Cat they were 200ppms. On modified cars I'm usually fixing problems with Ignition timing. One more note, if you are going really lean, you'll see a rise in HC, big rise, which you aren't seeing here. > Seeing as I have been having so much trouble getting the fueling straight > on my new Vortec headed TPI engine I took my car to a local inspection > stop today and got a treadmill emissions test. Here in Fort Bend county SW > of Houston, Texas I learned they do a two stage test. One minute at 15mph > and one minute at 25mph. Both runs in second gear. It's done twice with > the best readings of both runs being the ones they accept and use. Even > though I knew my car would not pass seeing as I still have not found the > root cause of the idle/low speed 160 BLMs that I am getting I found the > results interesting. BTW my car did fail. It flunked the NOx during the > 15mph runs. Here are the results they handed me. The CO readings are a little lean, but I'm wondering if you had any air injection? Normally around .5-.6% before Cat. That would account for the lower CO2, and higher O2. The higher the CO2 the better, always. When everything is right on this number is usually about as high as it can get. 14.7 is usually as I as I've seen on American cars. 15% on hondas. And O2 around .5%-1.5%. Now these numbers are with cams up to about 270 duration. AFter that it is anybodies guess. Marcello > > 25mph: > HC(ppm) std-148 reading-65 > CO(%) std-.94 reading-.36 > CO2(%) 12.9 > O2(%) 2.9 > NOx(ppm) std-1047 reading-660 > Dilution(%) std->6 reading-13.3 > > 15mph: > HC(ppm) std-152 reading-108 > CO(%) std-.86 reading-.37 > CO2(%) 13.3 > O2(%) 2.3 > NOx(ppm) std-1146 reading-1635(*FAIL*) > Dilution(%) std->6 reading-13.7 > > If I remember right high NOx numbers are usually a result of high > combustion temperatures due to lean conditions. Seeing as my less than > smooth idle feels like I am not firing evenly I am thinking that I may > have an injector or two on the O2 sensor side of the engine that are > either somewhat clogged or not opening properly at low speeds. Any > thoughts? > > BTW anyone know what "Dilution" is? > > Oh yeah, one more interesting is that I received passing higher speed > readings even though I have a hollow cat. > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From rwhughe at oplink.net Wed Feb 16 16:00:10 2005 From: rwhughe at oplink.net (Robert W Hughes) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:00:10 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Continuing the chip switcher "problem" Message-ID: > I took a look at a datasheet for the 74xx374 and think I understand > what is going on. You put your new request of change of data in, and > on the next positive slope of the clock, the old data will be > switched to the new data. So until the clock rises, the old data > will be there. And if I'm getting this right, the data is only read > at the negative transition of the clock? So you will have done the > change during the time you aren't performing a read. And the system > will be no wiser. Even if an instruction was in being read, and not > data from the chip it will still be transparent. Hence the > Transparent latch name. Could you look at the Not PSEN signal I've > taken from the MCU at pin 23, and the Not OE pin as I've recorded > them on my webpage. Your analysis of the operation is correct. I looked at your traces, but none of these are usable, due to scope limitations. > http://home.comcast.net/~hexibot43/Waveforms.htm > Is it possible that although the signal never reaches Vss or ground > the computer could still be reading it as Vss or logic state low? Is > it possible that when it reaches the 2.5 v median point the computer > accepts that as ground? Apparently your DSO does have an alias filter, and due to this you see only the average of the signal when it is changing at at a much higher rate than your scope can handle. A better (higher sample rate or bandwidth) scope will surely show the signals switching between ground and Vss/Vcc/whatever. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W or perhaps 30:55.265N, 95:20.590W Houston, Texas "The city with too much Oxygen" rwhughe at oplink.net _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com Wed Feb 16 16:14:10 2005 From: mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com (mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:14:10 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Continuing the chip switcher "problem" Message-ID: Will, I'm guess my DSO is lying to me. I do have it set to DC, and I'm connecting the ground to the Vss pin of the eprom. The CE line is always low. It doesn't appear they are using it at all. I'm hoping putting the latch in, and seeing what it does will give me an answer to whether my meter is lying to me or not. Marcello > Marcello, > > I think I would tend to clock the address changes through the '374 using > not > CE rather than not OE, but both would probably work just as well. I > don't > know any logic family (NMOS, CMOS, TTL, HCTTL etc) that would interpret > the > logic level transitions you are seeing as going from logic 1 to logic 0. > There > must be a potential difference between the ground you are picking up for > the > scope probe and the logic ground the memory device is seeing. > > I don't think your problem is grounding, I think it's just the address > line > transitions being visible during read cycles. > > Is your DSO set to couple the signals through into the Y channel as a DC > signal or as AC? > It should be set for a DC signal of course. > > Will > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From krw at efn.org Wed Feb 16 18:25:49 2005 From: krw at efn.org (Karl Walter) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:25:49 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: Hello, I have been tuning 1227747 ECU eproms for several throttle body injected applications with pretty good sucess. Idle is easy with a CO meter and an eprom emulator. Cruise tunes itself, but Open Loop wot mode is a guess and check, with tons of test drives. A mixture meter on a second o2 sensor helps, as does datalogging with winaldl, but I'm dreaming of something like this: A unit that the fuel injector connectors plug into, and plugs into the fuel injectors (i.e. inline)and could scale the pulse width by turning a knob. It could be activated by tps ,and would need to run the comouter's output through a resistor, and measure the pulse width, calculate a new scaled pulse width, and run an injector driver circuit. Has anybody seen such a unit? Could this be done by cutting into the ecu just before the injector output stage, and making a scaler circuit that feeds at that point? I have no problem sactificing an ECU To make a tuning tool. Maybe a stand alone unit with an extra injector or two, temporarily set up to richen as needed. Wouldn't be able to lean out, but might be helpful. Could be made with all off the shelf parts, but would need fuel supply. What do you think? --Karl _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jlg-sep at comcast.net Wed Feb 16 20:24:13 2005 From: jlg-sep at comcast.net (Scott Peitzsch) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:24:13 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: > I have been tuning 1227747 ECU eproms for several throttle body injected > applications with pretty good sucess. Idle is easy with a CO meter and an > eprom emulator. Cruise tunes itself, but Open Loop wot mode is a guess > and check, with tons of test drives. A mixture meter on a second o2 > sensor helps, as does datalogging with winaldl, but I'm dreaming of > something like this: > A unit that the fuel injector connectors plug into, and plugs into the > fuel injectors (i.e. inline)and could scale the pulse width by turning a > knob. It could be activated by tps ,and would need to run the comouter's > output through a resistor, and measure the pulse width, calculate a new > scaled pulse width, and run an injector driver circuit. > > Has anybody seen such a unit? Could this be done by cutting into the ecu > just before the injector output stage, and making a scaler circuit that > feeds at that point? I have no problem sactificing an ECU To make a > tuning tool. > > > Maybe a stand alone unit with an extra injector or two, temporarily set up > to richen as needed. Wouldn't be able to lean out, but might be helpful. > Could be made with all off the shelf parts, but would need fuel supply. > > What do you think? --Karl Sounds to me like you just described a DynoJet Power Commander. Its most common use is as a tuning bandaid on EFI'd motorcycles, but you could fairly easily adapt it to an automotive TBI application -Scott _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com Wed Feb 16 21:06:56 2005 From: mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com (mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:06:56 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Continuing the chip switcher "problem" Message-ID: To Everyone, I am thinking about upgrading my DSO to something new. I was looking at the Fluke 192, mostly because I can make payments on it. Any comments. I want to find something that is going to keep me up to speed for a while. The fluke is about $2000....Is there something I can get for less money that would do a good if not better job. Thanks, Marcello >> I took a look at a datasheet for the 74xx374 and think I understand >> what is going on. You put your new request of change of data in, and >> on the next positive slope of the clock, the old data will be >> switched to the new data. So until the clock rises, the old data >> will be there. And if I'm getting this right, the data is only read >> at the negative transition of the clock? So you will have done the >> change during the time you aren't performing a read. And the system >> will be no wiser. Even if an instruction was in being read, and not >> data from the chip it will still be transparent. Hence the >> Transparent latch name. Could you look at the Not PSEN signal I've >> taken from the MCU at pin 23, and the Not OE pin as I've recorded >> them on my webpage. > > Your analysis of the operation is correct. I looked at your traces, but > none of these are usable, due to scope limitations. > >> http://home.comcast.net/~hexibot43/Waveforms.htm >> Is it possible that although the signal never reaches Vss or ground >> the computer could still be reading it as Vss or logic state low? Is >> it possible that when it reaches the 2.5 v median point the computer >> accepts that as ground? > > Apparently your DSO does have an alias filter, and due to this you see > only the average of the signal when it is changing at at a much higher > rate than your scope can handle. A better (higher sample rate or > bandwidth) scope will surely show the signals switching between ground > and Vss/Vcc/whatever. > > -- > Robert W. Hughes (Bob) > BackYard Engineering > 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W or perhaps 30:55.265N, 95:20.590W > Houston, Texas "The city with too much Oxygen" > rwhughe at oplink.net > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From WSCowell at aol.com Wed Feb 16 21:30:50 2005 From: WSCowell at aol.com (WSCowell at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:30:50 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Continuing the chip switcher "problem" Message-ID: --===============69075790945394999== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1108589172" -------------------------------1108589172 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marcello, I think Bob Hughes has this one correct. I flagged aliasing as a probable cause of the "problem" some time ago. Your DSO is deceiving you - it's not "seeing" the ground potential because it doesn't stay there long enough for the 'scope to pick up. I suggested you get something 100 times faster, I think. What you see is what the 'scope makes of things after the anti-aliasing filter has finished with the waveform. Remember that transitions to ground are the exception, and they are brief. They aren't presented long enough to show on screen. Your ECU is clearly working properly, so the correct signals must be there, but equipment limitations prevent you seeing them. Will Cowell -------------------------------1108589172 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Marcello,

I think Bob Hughes has this one correct. I flagged aliasing as a=20 probable cause of the "problem" some time ago. Your DSO is deceiving y= ou -=20 it's not "seeing" the ground potential because it doesn't stay there long en= ough=20 for the 'scope to pick up. I suggested you get something 100 times fas= ter,=20 I think. What you see is what the 'scope makes of things after the=20 anti-aliasing filter has finished with the waveform. Remember that=20 transitions to ground are the exception, and they are brief. They aren= 't=20 presented long enough to show on screen.

Your ECU is clearly working properly, so the correct signals must be th= ere,=20 but equipment limitations prevent you seeing them.

Will Cowell

-------------------------------1108589172-- --===============69075790945394999== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============69075790945394999==-- From martine001 at verizon.net Wed Feb 16 23:22:38 2005 From: martine001 at verizon.net (Martin E) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:22:38 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Continuing the chip switcher "problem" Message-ID: Tek TDS1002 $995 List. Cheers ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI" Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Continuing the chip switcher "problem" > To Everyone, > I am thinking about upgrading my DSO to something new. I was looking > at the Fluke 192, mostly because I can make payments on it. Any > comments. I want to find something that is going to keep me up to > speed for a while. The fluke is about $2000....Is there something I > can get for less money that would do a good if not better job. > > Thanks, > > Marcello > > > >> I took a look at a datasheet for the 74xx374 and think I understand > >> what is going on. You put your new request of change of data in, and > >> on the next positive slope of the clock, the old data will be > >> switched to the new data. So until the clock rises, the old data > >> will be there. And if I'm getting this right, the data is only read > >> at the negative transition of the clock? So you will have done the > >> change during the time you aren't performing a read. And the system > >> will be no wiser. Even if an instruction was in being read, and not > >> data from the chip it will still be transparent. Hence the > >> Transparent latch name. Could you look at the Not PSEN signal I've > >> taken from the MCU at pin 23, and the Not OE pin as I've recorded > >> them on my webpage. > > > > Your analysis of the operation is correct. I looked at your traces, but > > none of these are usable, due to scope limitations. > > > >> http://home.comcast.net/~hexibot43/Waveforms.htm > >> Is it possible that although the signal never reaches Vss or ground > >> the computer could still be reading it as Vss or logic state low? Is > >> it possible that when it reaches the 2.5 v median point the computer > >> accepts that as ground? > > > > Apparently your DSO does have an alias filter, and due to this you see > > only the average of the signal when it is changing at at a much higher > > rate than your scope can handle. A better (higher sample rate or > > bandwidth) scope will surely show the signals switching between ground > > and Vss/Vcc/whatever. > > > > -- > > Robert W. Hughes (Bob) > > BackYard Engineering > > 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W or perhaps 30:55.265N, 95:20.590W > > Houston, Texas "The city with too much Oxygen" > > rwhughe at oplink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > diy_efi mailing list > > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 23:23:24 2005 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:23:24 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Emissions Numbers... Message-ID: --- David Cooley wrote: >> 'course, if he was going THAT lean, he'd have >> probably passed on NOx, yes? Lots and lots of O2, >> lots of HC, almost no CO, and fairly low CO2 and >> NOx. > Not necessarily... Lean mixtures burn hotter, and > heat is the main factor in generating Nox. EGR > cools the burn and reduces Nox. It also reduces pumping losses, leading to increased economy at part-throttle cruise. But combustion temps do not follow a strict linear curve based on mixture. We were talking about running well lean of stoich, and NOx numbers drop as you go more than a bit leaner than stoich, indicating a drop in combustion temp. This makes sense, since with the available fuel being increasingly "diluted" by air, flame front travel slows notably. It's the same principle that drove emissions engineers to use EGR; move the burning bits further away from each other, and flame front travel slows, as does overall temperature during the burn. ===== | 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 23:56:31 2005 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:56:31 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Emissions Numbers... Message-ID: --- Mike Frels wrote: > my scans show 160(lean) at idle/slow and the sniffer > HCs are low, so to my smog test unexperienced mind > the results seem to back up the lean condition. Agreed. I just like to use Occam's Razor and cover all the bases, starting with the simplest ones to test/eliminate. "Pruning the decision tree" is perhaps THE key diagnostic skill, especially where you have mechanical and electronic components and a multi-state physical process all going on, ya know? ;) So it would appear that for some reason you are lean at part-throttle cruise and idle, which should both be closed-loop operation, yes? Can you confirm that the vehicle was running on closed-loop mode at both idle and the 15 mph test condition? Knowing that would go a long way toward narrowing the problem; if it's closed-loop, there are possibilities not found in open loop, and vice versa. > Also, my AIR system is functoning 100% and > completely seals off flow from the exhaust > manifolds on closed loop. I have verified this more > than twice. Okay, that helps. I was thinking that it was possible there might be extra oxygen being intentionally injected into the exhaust from an AIR system, but that's not the case. One possibility eliminated. I think I might work on the spark table to see if I could smooth out the idle, and see what that does for you. I know you can reduce those NOx numbers with spark timing. Oh, and are you using a big, funky cam or something? The other thing that comes to mind that could give high residual oxygen readings regardless of fueling would be a big cam with lots and lots of overlap. At low engine speeds, there would probably be a good bit of unburned mixture passing into the exhaust. Of course, then your hydrocarbons should be higher... Hm. This really is a brain-buster. You'd already cleaned and flowed the injectors to make sure they were within spec, right? Is there a "dead time" setting in your ECU? I suppose it is possible that below a certain fueling level, the injectors are not opening fully and leaning the mixture more than you would think from the fuel tables alone. Please pardon me if you've covered some of these topics before; my mind is in a million different places lately. Feel free to reply off-list if you think it details would be extraneous on-list. :) > Where can I do more reading on what the smog > readings indicate? It takes some poking, but there's some stuff on the web. You might want to purchase the full "book" seen here, which has some practical examples and theory: Ooh, and this one is especially good. Comes from Toyota. ===== | 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 00:02:42 2005 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:02:42 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Emissions Numbers... Message-ID: --- Mike Frels wrote: > Do you know why the HCs rise on severe lean? > Incomplete combustion due to the mixture > being too lean to burn fast enough? As well as the possibility that there will be pockets of even leaner mixture in the combustion chamber, depending on the homogeneity of the mixture. But basically, that's right on. Go far enough and you start to get lean misfire, where the flame kernel around the spark plug never burns most of the mixture. You get even lower NOx, and higher residual O2 AND higher hydrocarbons, while CO drops even lower. ===== | 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 00:13:34 2005 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:13:34 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: --- Karl Walter wrote: > A unit that the fuel injector connectors plug into, > and plugs into the fuel injectors (i.e. inline)and > could scale the pulse width by turning a knob. It > could be activated by tps ,and would need to run the > comouter's output through a resistor, and measure > the pulse width, calculate a new scaled pulse width, > and run an injector driver circuit. There's a bit more to it than that, especially if the injector driver(s) check for possible problems with the system based on "return signal" from the injectors. But basically what you are asking for is an existing product from the motorcycle world, a DynoJet Power Commander III. I believe they only have models that can handle up to 4 cylinders, but you could use two units for a V-8 without trouble, I would think. There are gross adjustments on the unit (push-button), and you can map them with a laptop for more detailed load/speed mapping. ===== | 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 00:19:19 2005 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:19:19 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: --- Scott Peitzsch wrote: > Its most common use is as a tuning bandaid on EFI'd > motorcycles, but you could fairly easily adapt it to > an automotive TBI application D'oh. I'd forgotten he said that it was for TBI. This could be a problem, as most TBI applications are, I believe, peak and hold injectors, and the Power Commander III is only available for saturated drive injectors, as far as I know. It would take some re-engineering of the hardware to make it a "drop-in" for a P&H drive injector setup. Of course, you could just use two or more sat drive injectors and stage them so as to get the same or better dynamic range, but then you're into having to re-engineer some more to get all the injectors working properly and in concert. ===== | 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From A6intruder at adelphia.net Thu Feb 17 02:02:35 2005 From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (Daniel Nicoson) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:02:35 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: Karl, >>From your discussion below I am assuming that you can change all the parameters on your ECU? I'm only familiar with the Ford EEC computers, I tune mine with a TwEECer which allows full control of spark and fuel tables and much more. If you use a wide band O2, why can't you just change the commanded pulse widths in the ECU to handle WOT? Tune the MAF curve or MAP table. Am I missing something? The hardware route you are proposing is a significant step, I've done it on a sequential water injection system. It has been a year and a half of hard work learning all about the electronics and figuring out the circuits etc. I let the Ford computer run the gasoline fuel injectors per normal but I also take a signal off each injector line and take that to my secondary injector controller where I use a delay (variable by dash controller) to give a shorter water pulse width that ends the same time as the fuel pulse width. I run a second "fuel rail" to handle the water/methanol just like a regular EFI system, using 14# injectors in each intake runner. I still don't have a turbo mounted so I don't really get full benefit yet (this was supposed to be a supporting project to the turbo install - I've been 1.5 years on the secondary controller). I tested the unit this fall on the dyno, works fine. I got a little side tracked and started experimenting with methanol/nitro trying to up the Hp in NA form. It snowed before I got very far with nitro, will resume in March... I'm currently re-designing the controller to make it more simple, gain some better control etc. Project on my web site www.myo-p.com The redesign may include the ability to achieve longer pulse widths than commanded by the ECU, I haven't finalized that part yet. I would tune your WOT with a WB and change the parameters on the chip if you are able, much less work, trust me. Have fun. Dan Nicoson -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Karl Walter Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:22 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Hello, I have been tuning 1227747 ECU eproms for several throttle body injected applications with pretty good sucess. Idle is easy with a CO meter and an eprom emulator. Cruise tunes itself, but Open Loop wot mode is a guess and check, with tons of test drives. A mixture meter on a second o2 sensor helps, as does datalogging with winaldl, but I'm dreaming of something like this: A unit that the fuel injector connectors plug into, and plugs into the fuel injectors (i.e. inline)and could scale the pulse width by turning a knob. It could be activated by tps ,and would need to run the comouter's output through a resistor, and measure the pulse width, calculate a new scaled pulse width, and run an injector driver circuit. Has anybody seen such a unit? Could this be done by cutting into the ecu just before the injector output stage, and making a scaler circuit that feeds at that point? I have no problem sactificing an ECU To make a tuning tool. Maybe a stand alone unit with an extra injector or two, temporarily set up to richen as needed. Wouldn't be able to lean out, but might be helpful. Could be made with all off the shelf parts, but would need fuel supply. What do you think? --Karl _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From rgranchelli at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 02:12:42 2005 From: rgranchelli at yahoo.com (ralph granchelli) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:12:42 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Message-ID: --===============16537420573688077== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1779363783-1108606133=:2237" --0-1779363783-1108606133=:2237 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have a problem with my Commander 950 TBI system that I need assistance with I have a 700 CFM Holley Commander 950 TBI narrowband system installed on a Ford 351 Cleveland. I use a Crane Hi-6 CDI with a Crane street strip distributor. I do not have real time spark control on this set up but the Crane street strip distributor has programmable advance curves. I use the tach out line from the Hi-6 to trigger the Holley ECU and to run a MSD tach adaptor to drive the tach I run speed density. I have set up the fuel map under varied driving conditions such that I always run around 12:5 to 13 to 1. Coolant modifiers, afterstart and cranking PW are all adjusted so that it starts well under most conditions. In one of my headers I have installed a bung for my wideband sensor for my gas analyzer that I use for tuning. The problem I am having is as follows. Sometimes when I start the engine either hot or cold it will go into a real lean state, around 22:1.It will stay this way until I restart. Sometimes it will recover on its own after about 20 seconds or so. I have it set so on hot restart it takes 30 seconds before it goes closed loop on idle. Shutting the engine off and restarting one or two times always cures it. I can be driving for an hour and do a restart and it will do the lean thing. Sometimes when I start cold it will do it. It appears to be a random occurrence but always on startup. I have used this system in other applications before and never had a problem like this You can see a description of the install here: http://www.panteraplace.com/page176.htm When it does it, it will be reading from the same block on the fuel map where it was just running at 12.5:1 seconds ago and now upon restart it is running 22:1. I have checked every sensor, connections, fuel pressures, grounds, swapped ECU?s etc. If you guys have any suggestions on how to track this down I would appreciate your inputs. It is driving me crazy and I need inputs from you experts! TNX & Rgds, RG --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1779363783-1108606133=:2237 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I have a problem with my Commander 950 TBI system that I need assistance with

I have a 700 CFM Holley Commander 950 TBI narrowband system installed on a Ford 351 Cleveland. I use a Crane Hi-6 CDI with a Crane street strip distributor. I do not have real time spark control on this set up but the Crane street strip distributor has programmable advance curves.

I use the tach out line from the Hi-6 to trigger the Holley ECU and to run a MSD tach adaptor to drive the tach

I run speed density. I have set up the fuel map under varied driving conditions such that I always run around 12:5 to 13 to 1. Coolant modifiers, afterstart and cranking PW are all adjusted so that it starts well under most conditions.

In one of my headers I have installed a bung for my wideband sensor for my gas analyzer that I use for tuning.

The problem I am having is as follows. Sometimes when I start the engine either hot or cold it will go into a real lean state, around 22:1.It will stay this way until I restart. Sometimes it will recover on its own after about 20 seconds or so. I have it set so on hot restart it takes 30 seconds before it goes closed loop on idle. Shutting the engine off and restarting one or two times always cures it. I can be driving for an hour and do a restart and it will do the lean thing. Sometimes when I start cold it will do it. It appears to be a random occurrence but always on startup.

I have used this system in other applications before and never had a problem like this

You can see a description of the install here: http://www.panteraplace.com/page176.htm

When it does it, it will be reading from the same block on the fuel map where it was just running at 12.5:1 seconds ago and now upon restart it is running 22:1. I have checked every sensor, connections, fuel pressures, grounds, swapped ECU?s etc.

If you guys have any suggestions on how to track this down I would appreciate your inputs. It is driving me crazy and I need inputs from you experts!

TNX & Rgds,

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1779363783-1108606133=:2237-- --===============16537420573688077== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============16537420573688077==-- From krw at efn.org Thu Feb 17 02:27:30 2005 From: krw at efn.org (Karl Walter) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:27:30 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: Hello, Well The Dynojet power commander is just what I'm looking for, just for TBI. Getting a Dynojet PC to work with peak/hold injectors would be a lot of work, I think. The system I would like would be only in the vehicle temporarily, to get an idea of how to change the PE and VE over 3600rpm tables. About the Wide Band: The Block Learn on a 1227747 ecu only goes up to 3600 rpm (or 3400, Ican't remember right now.) So it's open loop above that. I can change the Open Loop threshhold for the map sensor and the throttle postiton, and get it to block learn more, but not at the higher RPM's although I could be wrong about that, but I think it would require a different ECU with bigger tables to do the top end by o2 feedback. any more thoughts? --Karl _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jlg-sep at comcast.net Thu Feb 17 02:47:50 2005 From: jlg-sep at comcast.net (Scott Peitzsch) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:47:50 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: > > Its most common use is as a tuning bandaid on EFI'd > > motorcycles, but you could fairly easily adapt it to > > an automotive TBI application > > D'oh. I'd forgotten he said that it was for TBI. > > This could be a problem, as most TBI applications are, > I believe, peak and hold injectors, and the Power > Commander III is only available for saturated drive > injectors, as far as I know. It would take some > re-engineering of the hardware to make it a "drop-in" > for a P&H drive injector setup. Of course, you could > just use two or more sat drive injectors and stage > them so as to get the same or better dynamic range, > but then you're into having to re-engineer some more > to get all the injectors working properly and in concert. I've never opened one up before, but it shouldn't be all that difficult to insert an LM1949 injector drive controller IC (along with the assorted support components) into the PC's output circuit. If that proves impractical, a basic PnH driver board could be built and inserted after the output of the PC. Either way, not that much work for anyone skilled with a soldering iron. The sample circuits found in the LM1949 datasheet are more than sufficient. Parts cost shouldn't be much more than ~$20 for the components. -Scott _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 02:49:38 2005 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:49:38 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state upon Message-ID: --- ralph granchelli wrote: > The problem I am having is as follows. Sometimes > when I start the engine either hot or cold it will > go into a real lean state, around 22:1.It will stay > this way until I restart. Well, since you confirmed that it is reading from the same load/speed map site either way, we can conclude that the engine speed and engine load sensors (TPS, MAF, MAP, whatever combination you are using) are delivering correct readings, and the ECU is interpreting them correctly. And you have it programmed not to go into closed-loop mode, so it's nothing to do with the O2 sensor. What does that leave? I don't know about your particular unit, but it used to be standard practice for many automotive and some motorcycle ECUs to check ambient air temp and density at startup, and not again until the next key-on. Often this was done so that a pressure transducer could be eliminated; for instance, the MAP sensor could be used prior to cranking the motor. If your setup reads like this, it could be getting a bad signal from a pressure or temperature transducer (bad harness, connector/connection, or sensor). Another possibility is that one of the temp sensors (ambient/intake or coolant) is situated somewhere where it receives undue amounts of heat when parked hot; perhaps the CTS is in a pocket on a head where the coolant locally gets extremely hot when the water pump is not turning, or (more likely) the ambient sensor gets heat-soaked, perhaps from a hot exhaust or something. Especially with the AAT sensor, reading more than 150 deg. F would tend to make the ECU think that air density was much, much lower than it actually was, and to deliver a very lean mixture accordingly, using the multiplier table for air density. Note that I'm not familiar with the system under discussion, and am offering general comments about possible culprits. This may well be a "known issue" with the unit itself, and my comments may not be applicable. They're meant as general brainstorming for troubleshooting the symptoms. Hopefully someone who knows your specific system can chime in about anything particular to the unit that might be helpful. ===== | 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jlg-sep at comcast.net Thu Feb 17 02:52:48 2005 From: jlg-sep at comcast.net (Scott Peitzsch) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:52:48 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: > Well The Dynojet power commander is just what I'm looking for, just for > TBI. Getting a Dynojet PC to work with peak/hold injectors would be a lot > of work, I think. The system I would like would be only in the vehicle > temporarily, to get an idea of how to change the PE and VE over 3600rpm > tables. Aside from my other email, an alternative solution may also be to rework your '747 and insert the PC just before the injector drive circuitry inside the ECM. It eliminates the need to design a PnH driver, but isn't quite as clean to implement. It also means that the modified ECM would have to be used temporarily in whichever vehicle you may want to tune. -Scott _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 02:55:25 2005 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:55:25 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: --- Karl Walter wrote: > Well The Dynojet power commander is just what I'm > looking for, just for TBI. Getting a Dynojet PC to > work with peak/hold injectors would be a lot > of work, I think. Yeah, I realized it was for a TBI system after I'd already replied. D'oh! :) About the only thing I can think of right off would be to build a simple box with a P&H injector driver chip, and rig up a splitter in the fuel rail to feed an extra injector, which you would hang over the bore of the TB inside the plenum or air cleaner. It would be a bit of work, and probably a fair bit of cobbling, but I don't know of any commercial solutions that would be both affordable and "temporary" (i.e., more work to install and remove than necessary, since they intended a permanent mounting). I'm certainly interested in anything others might have to offer. ===== | 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 03:11:39 2005 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 00:11:39 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: --- Scott Peitzsch wrote: > a basic PnH driver board could be built and inserted > after the output of the PC. Parts cost shouldn't be > much more than ~$20 for the components. Heh, that's an excellent idea. Sometimes my head gets stuck thinking in terms of making "systemic" changes to a unit, rather than piggybacking something (my first thought is not one to piggyback on a piggyback device!). Sometimes it's helpful for someone to remind me that I don't have to reinvent the wheel, just maybe apply a tire patch. ;) ===== | 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From dsl at airnet.net.nz Thu Feb 17 04:19:01 2005 From: dsl at airnet.net.nz (Diesel Services) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 01:19:01 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: Hi Jacar electronics have just released an interceptor kit ,sounds like what you want ,you need to buy the tuning module also.I have just bought one .nice kit good price easy to assemble .I havent fitted it yet cheers Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Walter" To: Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 7:21 AM Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool > Hello, > > I have been tuning 1227747 ECU eproms for several throttle body injected > applications with pretty good sucess. Idle is easy with a CO meter and an > eprom emulator. Cruise tunes itself, but Open Loop wot mode is a guess > and check, with tons of test drives. A mixture meter on a second o2 > sensor helps, as does datalogging with winaldl, but I'm dreaming of > something like this: > A unit that the fuel injector connectors plug into, and plugs into the > fuel injectors (i.e. inline)and could scale the pulse width by turning a > knob. It could be activated by tps ,and would need to run the comouter's > output through a resistor, and measure the pulse width, calculate a new > scaled pulse width, and run an injector driver circuit. > > Has anybody seen such a unit? Could this be done by cutting into the ecu > just before the injector output stage, and making a scaler circuit that > feeds at that point? I have no problem sactificing an ECU To make a > tuning tool. > > > Maybe a stand alone unit with an extra injector or two, temporarily set up > to richen as needed. Wouldn't be able to lean out, but might be helpful. > Could be made with all off the shelf parts, but would need fuel supply. > > What do you think? --Karl > > > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From krw at efn.org Thu Feb 17 06:31:18 2005 From: krw at efn.org (Karl Walter) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:31:18 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: OK, I think a peak and hold output for the Power Commander III may not be so hard after all. I think I will see if I can find the input to the Injector driver in the ECU, maybe tomrrow time permitting. I've got a whole bunch of ECU's, and I have an ECU extention cord so I can put it on the passenger seat while tuning, so swapping is easy. In a pinch I may be able to just use a second ECU as an injector driver piggybacked to the power commander. OH yeh, I have to get a power commannder too. The Jaycar kit is exactly what I am talking about, and it has a peak/hold add on, but I'm in the US, and they may not ship. I will try to find a copy of High Performance Electronic Projects for Cars - Silicon Chip Publications from which this kit was derived. It may be only in AU too.. Anyway, Thanks for all the suggestions, I will keep this list updated as I find out more. Any more ideas would be great! --Karl _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com Thu Feb 17 07:43:13 2005 From: mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com (mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 04:43:13 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Continuing the chip switcher "problem" Message-ID: Everyone, This evening I made an inline board between my eeprom board, and my PicChip switcher. I used a 74HS374, as suggested. And I think I got it. I had two address lines to control, so I used two flip-flops to buffer the information from my switches. The 74HS374 will hold off on a change to the Q lines (output lines) until the clock is occuring an upward slope. Now that I've put it together I've got two new questions. 1. I Don't need a pull up resistors, Which I was using with the switch before inbetween the flip-flop and the eeprom? The flip-flop is capable of holding the state H or L on its own. I should be able to simply drive the address lines of the eeprom with the flip-flop output, correct? 2. In driving logic on the 74HS374 do I need to drive it thru something like a 10kohm resistor? There is an output control at pin 1 that if I understand what I'm doing I should drive to ground all the time. I simply connected straight to Vss. That should be ok since I'm never having to change the state of the this pin, correct? I've taken the Signal that was going to the Not OE line of the eprom, and used that as my clock in. If all goes right, my DSO lied to me, and this should simply do the trick. I can understand why everyone was saying why did I need the PicChip. I could have done this all with a simple switch, and some logic chips. Not all problems can be handled with software! Well, at least I've got a nice text screen. And later maybe the ability to change a cell of the spark or fuel tables on the fly. And Valet mode, by dropping the top speed, and rev limit. Thanks everyone - I could not have done this without help. A lot of help. Marcello >> I took a look at a datasheet for the 74xx374 and think I understand >> what is going on. You put your new request of change of data in, and >> on the next positive slope of the clock, the old data will be >> switched to the new data. So until the clock rises, the old data >> will be there. And if I'm getting this right, the data is only read >> at the negative transition of the clock? So you will have done the >> change during the time you aren't performing a read. And the system >> will be no wiser. Even if an instruction was in being read, and not >> data from the chip it will still be transparent. Hence the >> Transparent latch name. Could you look at the Not PSEN signal I've >> taken from the MCU at pin 23, and the Not OE pin as I've recorded >> them on my webpage. > > Your analysis of the operation is correct. I looked at your traces, but > none of these are usable, due to scope limitations. > >> http://home.comcast.net/~hexibot43/Waveforms.htm >> Is it possible that although the signal never reaches Vss or ground >> the computer could still be reading it as Vss or logic state low? Is >> it possible that when it reaches the 2.5 v median point the computer >> accepts that as ground? > > Apparently your DSO does have an alias filter, and due to this you see > only the average of the signal when it is changing at at a much higher > rate than your scope can handle. A better (higher sample rate or > bandwidth) scope will surely show the signals switching between ground > and Vss/Vcc/whatever. > > -- > Robert W. Hughes (Bob) > BackYard Engineering > 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W or perhaps 30:55.265N, 95:20.590W > Houston, Texas "The city with too much Oxygen" > rwhughe at oplink.net > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From WSCowell at aol.com Thu Feb 17 08:07:55 2005 From: WSCowell at aol.com (WSCowell at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:07:55 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Continuing the chip switcher "problem" Message-ID: --===============15471906943444758== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1108627409" -------------------------------1108627409 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Marcello, Way to go! To answer your questions: 1. Correct. No pullups needed from output of 373 to the memory. 2. No series resistors needed between PIC outputs and 373 inputs. BUT I would use pullups on the PIC outputs, because otherwise they will be in an indeterminate state until your PIC software asserts itself and configures the port concerned. 3. Don't forget to tie the INPUTS of all UNUSED devices in the 374 either high or low - it doesn't matter which. You can leave the outputs unconnected. You can connect pins like "Output enable" on the 374 directly to Vss or Vcc without difficulty. We are all waiting with bated breath to see if you are successful - but I know where my money is! Will Cowell G0OPL -------------------------------1108627409 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Marcello,

Way to go! To answer your questions:

1. Correct. No pullups needed from output=20= of=20 373 to the memory.

2. No series resistors needed between PIC output= s=20 and 373 inputs. BUT I would use pullups on the PIC outputs, because=20 otherwise they will be in an indeterminate state until your PIC software ass= erts=20 itself and configures the port concerned.

3. Don't forget to tie the INPUTS of all UNUSED=20 devices in the 374 either high or low - it doesn't matter which. You c= an=20 leave the outputs unconnected. You can connect pins like "Output enabl= e"=20 on the 374 directly to Vss or Vcc without difficulty.

We are all waiting with bated breath to see if you are successful - but= I=20 know where my money is!

Will Cowell

G0OPL

-------------------------------1108627409-- --===============15471906943444758== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============15471906943444758==-- From mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com Thu Feb 17 16:01:10 2005 From: mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com (mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:01:10 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Continuing the chip switcher "problem" Message-ID: I'm glad I asked. I didn't drive the unused inputs of my 374 to anything. I'll add that this morning. I'm understanding. All digital stuff is like the Pic. Doesn't want any wondering circuits. If not used pull to a fixed state. The worst part is my friend took the car to the races for the weekend, so I won't be trying it on a real car until next week! Ahhhhh. So close. Marcello > Hi Marcello, > > Way to go! To answer your questions: > > 1. Correct. No pullups needed from output of 373 to the memory. > > 2. No series resistors needed between PIC outputs and 373 inputs. BUT > I > would use pullups on the PIC outputs, because otherwise they will be in > an > indeterminate state until your PIC software asserts itself and configures > the > port concerned. > > 3. Don't forget to tie the INPUTS of all UNUSED devices in the 374 > either > high or low - it doesn't matter which. You can leave the outputs > unconnected. You can connect pins like "Output enable" on the 374 > directly to Vss or > Vcc without difficulty. > > We are all waiting with bated breath to see if you are successful - but I > know where my money is! > > Will Cowell > G0OPL > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From krawczuk at dodo.com.au Thu Feb 17 17:04:20 2005 From: krawczuk at dodo.com.au (mark krawczuk) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 14:04:20 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: hi, i just happen to have a copy of that magazine right here in my hot little hand, let me know what u want to have a look at , and i`ll scan it . mark k --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" Protected by GIANT Company's Spam Inspector The most powerful anti-spam software available. http://mail.spaminspector.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Walter" To: Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:56 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool > OK, I think a peak and hold output for the Power Commander III may not be > so hard after all. I think I will see if I can find the input to the > Injector driver in the ECU, maybe tomrrow time permitting. I've got a > whole bunch of ECU's, and I have an ECU extention cord so I can put it on > the passenger seat while tuning, so swapping is easy. In a pinch I may be > able to just use a second ECU as an injector driver piggybacked to the > power commander. OH yeh, I have to get a power commannder too. > > > The Jaycar kit is exactly what I am talking about, and it has a peak/hold > add on, but I'm in the US, and they may not ship. > I will try to find a copy of > High Performance Electronic Projects for Cars - Silicon Chip Publications > from which this kit was derived. It may be only in AU too.. > > Anyway, Thanks for all the suggestions, I will keep this list updated as I > find out more. Any more ideas would be great! --Karl > > > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From krw at efn.org Thu Feb 17 23:45:55 2005 From: krw at efn.org (Karl Walter) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:45:55 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============51482270664181184== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009D_01C51507.9F454AC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C51507.9F454AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, I found the signal in the ECU that runs the two injector drivers. = On the scope it's a nice square wave, varying in duty cycle with the = throttle position on my bench test. SO... The power commanders are = $300 and might not work. The kit from jayco as far as I can tell, needs = tuned by laptop. I would like keep things as simple as possible and = analog, and just have a pot to turn. Something you can do while = driving. Here's what I am thinking: Pulse from ECU ----> pulse width = to voltage circuit ---> amplify/attenuate circuit with pot --->voltage = to pulse width circuit. The amplify/attenuate could be done with an op amp, and there is a = really simple 555 v to pulsewidth ckt I've used in the past, So I just = have to find a pulse width to voltage ckt. Any thoughts there? Part of = a pulse width monitor maybe?=20 I made a vss calibrator this way, and it worked well, but it used a = frequency to voltage circuit instead of a pulse width to voltage.=20 The wide band tuning method,(I'm asking) this would entail doing runs = and datalogging the mixture, rpm, tps, then using this info to set the = wot parameters in the ecu, correct? For me the problem with that is = that if the parameters are way far off, it takes a bunch of runs just to = get in the ball park. I like to have helpers to the test drives, as I = need to mind the shop. It's easy for them to go out with something = running really lean and do it in, or foul plugs and be stranded. If = they had a quick way to correct the mixture, then the run could be much = more effictive and less destructive. How little could a wb setup run, = say a kit, software and cables, and the o2 sensor itself? $200? --Karl ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C51507.9F454AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

OK, I found the signal in the ECU that = runs the two=20 injector drivers. On the scope it's a nice square wave, varying in = duty=20 cycle with the throttle position on my bench test. SO... The = power=20 commanders are $300 and might not work. The kit from=20 jayco as far as I can tell, needs tuned by laptop. I would = like =20 keep things as simple as possible and analog, and just have a = pot to=20 turn. Something you can do while driving. Here's what I am=20 thinking: Pulse from ECU ----> pulse width to voltage circuit = --->=20 amplify/attenuate circuit with pot --->voltage to pulse width=20 circuit.

The amplify/attenuate could be = done with an=20 op amp, and there is a really simple 555 v to pulsewidth ckt I've used = in the=20 past, So I just have to find a pulse width to voltage ckt. Any thoughts=20 there? Part of a pulse width monitor maybe?

I made a vss calibrator this way, and = it worked=20 well, but it used a frequency to voltage circuit instead of a pulse = width to=20 voltage.

The wide band tuning method,(I'm = asking) this would=20 entail doing runs and datalogging the mixture, rpm, tps, then using this = info to=20 set the wot parameters in the ecu, correct? For me the problem = with that=20 is that if the parameters are way far off, it takes a bunch of runs just = to get=20 in the ball park. I like to have helpers to the test drives, as I = need to=20 mind the shop. It's easy for them to go out with something running = really=20 lean and do it in, or foul plugs and be stranded. If they had a = quick way=20 to correct the mixture, then the run could be much more effictive and = less=20 destructive. How little could a wb setup run, say a kit, software = and=20 cables, and the o2 sensor itself? $200?

--Karl

------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C51507.9F454AC0-- --===============51482270664181184== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============51482270664181184==-- From jaws at pelicancoast.net Fri Feb 18 00:04:15 2005 From: jaws at pelicancoast.net (Slater Family) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:04:15 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] unsubscribe Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============85795432032099894== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5151B.8491DFE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5151B.8491DFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5151B.8491DFE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5151B.8491DFE0-- --===============85795432032099894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============85795432032099894==-- From A6intruder at adelphia.net Fri Feb 18 15:00:52 2005 From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (Daniel Nicoson) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:00:52 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============95954001902706298== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01C515A0.5765B0C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C515A0.5765B0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pulse width to voltage: use a LF198/LF298/LF398 Go to Digi Key and pull down the data sheet. Dan Nicoson -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Karl Walter Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 6:45 PM To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] WOT tuning tool OK, I found the signal in the ECU that runs the two injector drivers. On the scope it's a nice square wave, varying in duty cycle with the throttle position on my bench test. SO... The power commanders are $300 and might not work. The kit from jayco as far as I can tell, needs tuned by laptop. I would like keep things as simple as possible and analog, and just have a pot to turn. Something you can do while driving. Here's what I am thinking: Pulse from ECU ----> pulse width to voltage circuit ---> amplify/attenuate circuit with pot --->voltage to pulse width circuit. The amplify/attenuate could be done with an op amp, and there is a really simple 555 v to pulsewidth ckt I've used in the past, So I just have to find a pulse width to voltage ckt. Any thoughts there? Part of a pulse width monitor maybe? I made a vss calibrator this way, and it worked well, but it used a frequency to voltage circuit instead of a pulse width to voltage. The wide band tuning method,(I'm asking) this would entail doing runs and datalogging the mixture, rpm, tps, then using this info to set the wot parameters in the ecu, correct? For me the problem with that is that if the parameters are way far off, it takes a bunch of runs just to get in the ball park. I like to have helpers to the test drives, as I need to mind the shop. It's easy for them to go out with something running really lean and do it in, or foul plugs and be stranded. If they had a quick way to correct the mixture, then the run could be much more effictive and less destructive. How little could a wb setup run, say a kit, software and cables, and the o2 sensor itself? $200? --Karl ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C515A0.5765B0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Pulse=20 width to voltage: use a LF198/LF298/LF398

Go to=20 Digi Key and pull down the data sheet.

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: = diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org=20 [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Karl=20 Walter
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 6:45 = PM
To: A=20 list for Do-It-Yourself EFI
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] WOT = tuning=20 tool

OK, I found the signal in the ECU = that runs the=20 two injector drivers. On the scope it's a nice square wave, = varying in=20 duty cycle with the throttle position on my bench test. = SO... The=20 power commanders are $300 and might not work. The kit = from=20 jayco as far as I can tell, needs tuned by laptop. I would=20 like keep things as simple as possible and analog, = and just=20 have a pot to turn. Something you can do while driving. = Here's=20 what I am thinking: Pulse from ECU ----> pulse width to = voltage=20 circuit ---> amplify/attenuate circuit with pot --->voltage to = pulse=20 width circuit.

The amplify/attenuate could be = done with an=20 op amp, and there is a really simple 555 v to pulsewidth ckt I've used = in the=20 past, So I just have to find a pulse width to voltage ckt. Any = thoughts=20 there? Part of a pulse width monitor maybe?

I made a vss calibrator this way, and = it worked=20 well, but it used a frequency to voltage circuit instead of a pulse = width to=20 voltage.

The wide band tuning method,(I'm = asking) this=20 would entail doing runs and datalogging the mixture, rpm, tps, then = using this=20 info to set the wot parameters in the ecu, correct? For me the = problem=20 with that is that if the parameters are way far off, it takes a bunch = of runs=20 just to get in the ball park. I like to have helpers to the test = drives,=20 as I need to mind the shop. It's easy for them to go out with = something=20 running really lean and do it in, or foul plugs and be stranded. = If they=20 had a quick way to correct the mixture, then the run could be much = more=20 effictive and less destructive. How little could a wb setup run, = say a=20 kit, software and cables, and the o2 sensor itself? $200?

--Karl

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C515A0.5765B0C0-- --===============95954001902706298== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============95954001902706298==-- From skishop69 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 01:50:42 2005 From: skishop69 at yahoo.com (Bret Levandowski) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:50:42 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227747 AE question Message-ID: --===============18595368729012351== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1639893172-1108777638=:76758" --0-1639893172-1108777638=:76758 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ok, I figured out my PE bog. Turns out the guy who had practically every table set wrong had the spark table way wrong. Anywhere from 3 - 15 degrees. As far as AE, there is AE Vs MAP and AE Vs TPS, I understand that this is a calculated 'pump shot' based on TPS or MAP input. What I don't get is why you need both. Is one for 'off the line' and the other for sudden stabs while cruising? Do the tables add together? Hope someone can give a good detailed answer. The reason I ask is that I have a nasty hesitation off the line, but only when the outside temp is below 60 deg F and I'm in CL. I'm assuming that one of these tables is too low such that with the denser air it's too lean. Thanks, Ski __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1639893172-1108777638=:76758 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Ok, I figured out my PE bog. Turns out the guy who had practically every table set wrong had the spark table way wrong. Anywhere from 3 - 15 degrees. As far as AE, there is AE Vs MAP and AE Vs TPS, I understand that this is a calculated 'pump shot' based on TPS or MAP input. What I don't get is why you need both. Is one for 'off the line' and the other for sudden stabs while cruising? Do the tables add together? Hope someone can give a good detailed answer. The reason I ask is that I have a nasty hesitation off the line, but only when the outside temp is below 60 deg F and I'm in CL. I'm assuming that one of these tables is too low such that with the denser air it's too lean. Thanks, Ski

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1639893172-1108777638=:76758-- --===============18595368729012351== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============18595368729012351==-- From TheGreatJ at charter.net Sat Feb 19 02:58:37 2005 From: TheGreatJ at charter.net (J) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:58:37 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227747 AE question Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============31001414778453196== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0085_01C515FC.4E9051B0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C515FC.4E9051B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The two AE types work together and serve somewhat different purposes. = TPS AE is the initial squirt that keeps the mixture from going badly = lean with the sudden availability of air when you nail the throttle. = MAP AE is more to help smooth the transition from low-load to high-load = and consequently help the engine accelerate more smoothly. Both types of AE are used any time you open the throttle. TPS AE is = very quick, while MAP AE stays around a little longer. If your datalogs = show a lean spike when you kick the throttle, you need more TPS AE. If = it's less spikey and feels more like a lean bog, give it more MAP AE. = Most of the time, if you have to increase one, you'll need to increase = the other as well. This is just my experience, which admittedly isn't very extensive. ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C515FC.4E9051B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The two AE types work together and = serve somewhat=20 different purposes. TPS AE is the initial squirt that keeps the = mixture=20 from going badly lean with the sudden availability of air when you nail = the=20 throttle. MAP AE is more to help smooth the transition from = low-load to=20 high-load and consequently help the engine accelerate more=20 smoothly.

Both types of AE are used any time you = open the=20 throttle. TPS AE is very quick, while MAP AE stays around a little = longer. If your datalogs show a lean spike when you kick the = throttle, you=20 need more TPS AE. If it's less spikey and feels more like a lean = bog, give=20 it more MAP AE. Most of the time, if you have to increase one, = you'll need=20 to increase the other as well.

This is just my experience, which = admittedly isn't=20 very extensive.

------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C515FC.4E9051B0-- --===============31001414778453196== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============31001414778453196==-- From skishop69 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 03:10:06 2005 From: skishop69 at yahoo.com (Bret Levandowski) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:10:06 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227747 AE question Message-ID: --===============97227793984048683== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-375559180-1108782468=:24763" --0-375559180-1108782468=:24763 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>From the datalogs and the feel, it's definitely a lean bog that hangs around for a while (2-3 secs). Thanks for the clarification. In order to adjust the MAP AE I assume I want to adjust up the time at the the MAP reading the 'bog' occurs at? Or, do I need to adjust the MAPs above it as well? I guess same question for the TPS as well. Do I adjust at the point of the problem or at and above? Ski J wrote: The two AE types work together and serve somewhat different purposes. TPS AE is the initial squirt that keeps the mixture from going badly lean with the sudden availability of air when you nail the throttle. MAP AE is more to help smooth the transition from low-load to high-load and consequently help the engine accelerate more smoothly. Both types of AE are used any time you open the throttle. TPS AE is very quick, while MAP AE stays around a little longer. If your datalogs show a lean spike when you kick the throttle, you need more TPS AE. If it's less spikey and feels more like a lean bog, give it more MAP AE. Most of the time, if you have to increase one, you'll need to increase the other as well. This is just my experience, which admittedly isn't very extensive. _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-375559180-1108782468=:24763 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

From the datalogs and the feel, it's definitely a lean bog that hangs around for a while (2-3 secs). Thanks for the clarification. In order to adjust the MAP AE I assume I want to adjust up the time at the the MAP reading the 'bog' occurs at? Or, do I need to adjust the MAPs above it as well? I guess same question for the TPS as well. Do I adjust at the point of the problem or at and above? Ski

J <TheGreatJ at charter.net> wrote:

The two AE types work together and serve somewhat different purposes. TPS AE is the initial squirt that keeps the mixture from going badly lean with the sudden availability of air when you nail the throttle. MAP AE is more to help smooth the transition from low-load to high-load and consequently help the engine accelerate more smoothly.

Both types of AE are used any time you open the throttle. TPS AE is very quick, while MAP AE stays around a little longer. If your datalogs show a lean spike when you kick the throttle, you need more TPS AE. If it's less spikey and feels more like a lean bog, give it more MAP AE. Most of the time, if you have to increase one, you'll need to increase the other as well.

This is just my experience, which admittedly isn't very extensive.
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Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-375559180-1108782468=:24763-- --===============97227793984048683== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============97227793984048683==-- From rgranchelli at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 04:50:17 2005 From: rgranchelli at yahoo.com (ralph granchelli) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:50:17 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state upon Message-ID: --===============82701859690285762== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1857718457-1108788456=:63477" --0-1857718457-1108788456=:63477 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Adam, Thanks for your inputs. I have been sick for a week so have not worked on the problem this week This system is continuously looking at all the sensors and not only at start up. It continuously makes corrections based upon all sensor inputs The heat soak theory makes sense, however this problem can occur when the system is cold like after sitting all night. I suspect that I may have a sticking injector. I have a 4 channel TEK scope and plan to hook current probes to the injector trigger lines and look at their signatures. I don't have any experience trouble shooting injectors per say but have looked at some waveforms of good and bad injectors. At least I should be able to tell if one looks any different from the others TNX for the input Rgds, RG AZ Adam Wade wrote: --- ralph granchelli wrote: > The problem I am having is as follows. Sometimes > when I start the engine either hot or cold it will > go into a real lean state, around 22:1.It will stay > this way until I restart. Well, since you confirmed that it is reading from the same load/speed map site either way, we can conclude that the engine speed and engine load sensors (TPS, MAF, MAP, whatever combination you are using) are delivering correct readings, and the ECU is interpreting them correctly. And you have it programmed not to go into closed-loop mode, so it's nothing to do with the O2 sensor. What does that leave? I don't know about your particular unit, but it used to be standard practice for many automotive and some motorcycle ECUs to check ambient air temp and density at startup, and not again until the next key-on. Often this was done so that a pressure transducer could be eliminated; for instance, the MAP sensor could be used prior to cranking the motor. If your setup reads like this, it could be getting a bad signal from a pressure or temperature transducer (bad harness, connector/connection, or sensor). Another possibility is that one of the temp sensors (ambient/intake or coolant) is situated somewhere where it receives undue amounts of heat when parked hot; perhaps the CTS is in a pocket on a head where the coolant locally gets extremely hot when the water pump is not turning, or (more likely) the ambient sensor gets heat-soaked, perhaps from a hot exhaust or something. Especially with the AAT sensor, reading more than 150 deg. F would tend to make the ECU think that air density was much, much lower than it actually was, and to deliver a very lean mixture accordingly, using the multiplier table for air density. Note that I'm not familiar with the system under discussion, and am offering general comments about possible culprits. This may well be a "known issue" with the unit itself, and my comments may not be applicable. They're meant as general brainstorming for troubleshooting the symptoms. Hopefully someone who knows your specific system can chime in about anything particular to the unit that might be helpful. ===== | 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1857718457-1108788456=:63477 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Adam,

Thanks for your inputs. I have been sick for a week so have not worked on the problem this week

This system is continuously looking at all the sensors and not only at start up. It continuously makes corrections based upon all sensor inputs

The heat soak theory makes sense, however this problem can occur when the system is cold like after sitting all night.

I suspect that I may have a sticking injector. I have a 4 channel TEK scope and plan to hook current probes to the injector trigger lines and look at their signatures. I don't have any experience trouble shooting injectors per say but have looked at some waveforms of good and bad injectors.

At least I should be able to tell if one looks any different from the others

TNX for the input

Rgds,

AZ

Adam Wade <espresso_doppio at yahoo.com> wrote:

--- ralph granchelli wrote:

> The problem I am having is as follows. Sometimes
> when I start the engine either hot or cold it will
> go into a real lean state, around 22:1.It will stay
> this way until I restart.

Well, since you confirmed that it is reading from the
same load/speed map site either way, we can conclude
that the engine speed and engine load sensors (TPS,
MAF, MAP, whatever combination you are using) are
delivering correct readings, and the ECU is
interpreting them correctly. And you have it
programmed not to go into closed-loop mode, so it's
nothing to do with the O2 sensor. What does that
leave?

I don't know about your particular unit, but it used
to be standard practice for many automotive and some
motorcycle ECUs to check ambient air temp and density
at startup, and not again until the next key-on.
Often this was done so that a pressure transducer
could be eliminated; for instance, the MAP sensor
could be used prior to cranking the motor. If your
setup reads like this, it could be getting a bad
signal from a pressure or temperature transducer (bad
harness, connector/connection, or sensor).

Another possibility is that one of the temp sensors
(ambient/intake or coolant) is situated somewhere
where it receives undue amounts of heat when parked
hot; perhaps the CTS is in a pocket on a head where
the coolant locally gets extremely hot when the water
pump is not turning, or (more likely) the ambient
sensor gets heat-soaked, perhaps from a hot exhaust or
something. Especially with the AAT sensor, reading
more than 150 deg. F would tend to make the ECU think
that air density was much, much lower than it actually
was, and to deliver a very lean mixture accordingly,
using the multiplier table for air density.

Note that I'm not familiar with the system under
discussion, and am offering general comments about
possible culprits. This may well be a "known issue"
with the unit itself, and my comments may not be
applicable. They're meant as general brainstorming
for troubleshooting the symptoms. Hopefully someone
who knows your specific system can chime in about
anything particular to the unit that might be helpful.

=====
| 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it |
| didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. |
| They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
| The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun |
| had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut |
| M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze |

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Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1857718457-1108788456=:63477-- --===============82701859690285762== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============82701859690285762==-- From WSCowell at aol.com Sat Feb 19 08:15:07 2005 From: WSCowell at aol.com (WSCowell at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 05:15:07 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state upon Message-ID: --===============50746953799525696== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1108800752" -------------------------------1108800752 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi RG, Just a thought, the waveforms you will see with a current probe will be related to the current through the inductive windings of the injectors, right? So unless there is actually something electrically wrong with an injector, surely you will get the same waveform whether the pintle lifts cleanly off the seat or not? I'm not convinced you would see any sufficiently identifiable effect of a sticky or part-blocked injector. No harm in checking of course, I'm just not sure it would be a good idea to rely upon what you see. Regards Will Cowell G0OPL -------------------------------1108800752 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi RG,

Just a thought, the waveforms you will see with a current probe will be= =20 related to the current through the inductive windings of the injectors,=20 right? So unless there is actually something electrically wrong with a= n=20 injector, surely you will get the same waveform whether the pintle lifts cle= anly=20 off the seat or not? I'm not convinced you would see any sufficiently=20 identifiable effect of a sticky or part-blocked injector. No harm in=20 checking of course, I'm just not sure it would be a good idea to rely upon w= hat=20 you see.

Regards

Will Cowell

G0OPL

-------------------------------1108800752-- --===============50746953799525696== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============50746953799525696==-- From rgranchelli at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 14:49:43 2005 From: rgranchelli at yahoo.com (ralph granchelli) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:49:43 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state upon Message-ID: --===============62455720343149246== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-648325518-1108824441=:84397" --0-648325518-1108824441=:84397 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks Will, Makes sense! I have been looking at waveforms @ www.picotech.com So just look at the voltage pattern ? And the spray pattern when running normal and when in the lean mode ? TNX & RGds, RG AZ WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Hi RG, Just a thought, the waveforms you will see with a current probe will be related to the current through the inductive windings of the injectors, right? So unless there is actually something electrically wrong with an injector, surely you will get the same waveform whether the pintle lifts cleanly off the seat or not? I'm not convinced you would see any sufficiently identifiable effect of a sticky or part-blocked injector. No harm in checking of course, I'm just not sure it would be a good idea to rely upon what you see. Regards Will Cowell G0OPL _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-648325518-1108824441=:84397 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thanks Will,

Makes sense! I have been looking at waveforms @ www.picotech.com

So just look at the voltage pattern ?

And the spray pattern when running normal and when in the lean mode ?

TNX & RGds,

AZ

WSCowell at aol.com wrote:

Hi RG,

Just a thought, the waveforms you will see with a current probe will be related to the current through the inductive windings of the injectors, right? So unless there is actually something electrically wrong with an injector, surely you will get the same waveform whether the pintle lifts cleanly off the seat or not? I'm not convinced you would see any sufficiently identifiable effect of a sticky or part-blocked injector. No harm in checking of course, I'm just not sure it would be a good idea to rely upon what you see.

Regards

Will Cowell

G0OPL
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Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-648325518-1108824441=:84397-- --===============62455720343149246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============62455720343149246==-- From WSCowell at aol.com Sat Feb 19 19:57:12 2005 From: WSCowell at aol.com (WSCowell at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:57:12 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state upon Message-ID: --===============3901463196984194== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1108842854" -------------------------------1108842854 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of stuff. What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through the winding. Regards Will -------------------------------1108842854 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference whether you look at volt= age=20 or current waveform, because they simply tell you about the electrical=20 performance of the winding in the injector. What you really want to kn= ow=20 is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the injector lifting off its seat cle= anly=20 when pulsed? What is its spray pattern like? Does it deliver fue= l at=20 the correct rate?" That sort of stuff.

What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements wi= ll=20 tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve its= elf,=20 that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through the=20 winding.

Regards

Will

-------------------------------1108842854-- --===============3901463196984194== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============3901463196984194==-- From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu Sat Feb 19 20:04:01 2005 From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F6rn_Forsman?=) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:04:01 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state upon Message-ID: --===============34309324265247065== Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A good method of diagnosing troublesome injectors is to supply the injector coil from a lab power supply via an accurate ammeter. Increase the current slowly until the injector opens and record the opening current, then decrease the current and note the closing current. Repeat the test several times to get reliable results, and then do it on all injectors of the engine. In case of mechanical problems with an injector, the ratio between opening and closing currents will be different from the other ones.

Best regards

Torbjörn Forsman

ralph granchelli wrote:

Thanks Will,

Makes sense! I have been looking at waveforms @ www.picotech.com

So just look at the voltage pattern ?

And the spray pattern when running normal and when in the lean mode ?

TNX & RGds,

RG

AZ

WSCowell at aol.com wrote:

Hi RG,

Just a thought, the waveforms you will see with a current probe will be related to the current through the inductive windings of the injectors, right? So unless there is actually something electrically wrong with an injector, surely you will get the same waveform whether the pintle lifts cleanly off the seat or not? I'm not convinced you would see any sufficiently identifiable effect of a sticky or part-blocked injector. No harm in checking of course, I'm just not sure it would be a good idea to rely upon what you see.

Regards

Will Cowell

G0OPL
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--===============34309324265247065== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============34309324265247065==-- From skishop69 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 01:42:39 2005 From: skishop69 at yahoo.com (Bret Levandowski) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 22:42:39 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state upon Message-ID: --===============75513500043261472== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2123994517-1108863519=:54435" --0-2123994517-1108863519=:54435 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If the injector is sticking when opening, you will see a spike in the current at that point. It's subtle, but it's there. The magnetic field will find it hard to overcome the 'stick' and it will cause a momentary (very) jump in the draw on the windings. We spent some time screwing around with 'dead' injectors with known problems to see if we could see anything on the scope. WSCowell at aol.com wrote:Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of stuff. What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through the winding. Regards Will _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-2123994517-1108863519=:54435 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

If the injector is sticking when opening, you will see a spike in the current at that point. It's subtle, but it's there. The magnetic field will find it hard to overcome the 'stick' and it will cause a momentary (very) jump in the draw on the windings. We spent some time screwing around with 'dead' injectors with known problems to see if we could see anything on the scope.

WSCowell at aol.com wrote:

Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of stuff.

What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through the winding.

Regards

Will

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-2123994517-1108863519=:54435-- --===============75513500043261472== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============75513500043261472==-- From skishop69 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 01:51:48 2005 From: skishop69 at yahoo.com (Bret Levandowski) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 22:51:48 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state upon Message-ID: --===============17681440404445903== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2063502406-1108864124=:21592" --0-2063502406-1108864124=:21592 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today. Too much brain fry. Ski WSCowell at aol.com wrote:Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of stuff. What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through the winding. Regards Will _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-2063502406-1108864124=:21592 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today. Too much brain fry. Ski

WSCowell at aol.com wrote:

Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of stuff.

What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through the winding.

Regards

Will

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Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-2063502406-1108864124=:21592-- --===============17681440404445903== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============17681440404445903==-- From rgranchelli at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 02:05:28 2005 From: rgranchelli at yahoo.com (ralph granchelli) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 23:05:28 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state upon Message-ID: --===============79270169976621396== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-362504205-1108864983=:97446" --0-362504205-1108864983=:97446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday I'll let you guys know what I see TNX & Rgds, RG AZ Bret Levandowski wrote: My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today. Too much brain fry. Ski WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of stuff. What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through the winding. Regards Will _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'_______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. --0-362504205-1108864983=:97446 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions

I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday

I'll let you guys know what I see

TNX & Rgds,

AZ

Bret Levandowski <skishop69 at yahoo.com> wrote:

My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today. Too much brain fry. Ski

WSCowell at aol.com wrote:

Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of stuff.

What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through the winding.

Regards

Will

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Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. --0-362504205-1108864983=:97446-- --===============79270169976621396== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============79270169976621396==-- From TheGreatJ at charter.net Sun Feb 20 06:03:55 2005 From: TheGreatJ at charter.net (J) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:03:55 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227747 AE question Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============5747724340546625== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006F_01C516DF.3D3CA5B0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C516DF.3D3CA5B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The thing you have to watch out for here is that the MAP listed in the = AE table isn't a direct reading....it's a differential reading. I.E. if = you're cruising along at 35kPa and punch the throttle, and the MAP = reading goes to 80kPa, then you have a delta MAP of 45kPa. The ECM then = looks up the 45 entry in the MAP AE table and goes from there. Keep = your changes in the area where you have the problem, and go in small = steps. It's safer that way. ------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C516DF.3D3CA5B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The thing you have to watch out for = here is that=20 the MAP listed in the AE table isn't a direct reading....it's a = differential=20 reading. I.E. if you're cruising along at 35kPa and punch the = throttle,=20 and the MAP reading goes to 80kPa, then you have a delta MAP of = 45kPa. The=20 ECM then looks up the 45 entry in the MAP AE table and goes from = there. =20 Keep your changes in the area where you have the problem, and go in = small=20 steps. It's safer that way.

------=_NextPart_000_006F_01C516DF.3D3CA5B0-- --===============5747724340546625== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============5747724340546625==-- From TheGreatJ at charter.net Sun Feb 20 06:09:45 2005 From: TheGreatJ at charter.net (J) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 03:09:45 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============61802134098573047== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C516E0.278EC300" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C516E0.278EC300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If your lab scope has sufficient resolution, you can pick up mechanical = injector problems through the electrical signature. The movement of the = pintle affects the magnetic field created by the coil, and therefore = affects the current flow through the coil. Clogged injectors are hard = to find this way, but a "sluggish" or weak injector will usually show up. ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C516E0.278EC300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If your lab scope has sufficient = resolution, you=20 can pick up mechanical injector problems through the electrical=20 signature. The movement of the pintle affects the magnetic = field=20 created by the coil, and therefore affects the current flow through the=20 coil. Clogged injectors are hard to find this way, but a = "sluggish" or=20 weak injector will usually show up.

------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C516E0.278EC300-- --===============61802134098573047== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============61802134098573047==-- From skishop69 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 07:03:56 2005 From: skishop69 at yahoo.com (Bret Levandowski) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 04:03:56 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227747 AE question Message-ID: --===============31938467881573818== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-70871613-1108882865=:75024" --0-70871613-1108882865=:75024 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At least I didn't adjust the wrong area then. I played with it on the way home from work today and got rid of a large portion of the hesitation. J wrote: The thing you have to watch out for here is that the MAP listed in the AE table isn't a direct reading....it's a differential reading. I.E. if you're cruising along at 35kPa and punch the throttle, and the MAP reading goes to 80kPa, then you have a delta MAP of 45kPa. The ECM then looks up the 45 entry in the MAP AE table and goes from there. Keep your changes in the area where you have the problem, and go in small steps. It's safer that way. _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-70871613-1108882865=:75024 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

At least I didn't adjust the wrong area then. I played with it on the way home from work today and got rid of a large portion of the hesitation.

J <TheGreatJ at charter.net> wrote:

The thing you have to watch out for here is that the MAP listed in the AE table isn't a direct reading....it's a differential reading. I.E. if you're cruising along at 35kPa and punch the throttle, and the MAP reading goes to 80kPa, then you have a delta MAP of 45kPa. The ECM then looks up the 45 entry in the MAP AE table and goes from there. Keep your changes in the area where you have the problem, and go in small steps. It's safer that way.
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Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-70871613-1108882865=:75024-- --===============31938467881573818== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============31938467881573818==-- From WSCowell at aol.com Sun Feb 20 08:10:39 2005 From: WSCowell at aol.com (WSCowell at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 05:10:39 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state Message-ID: --===============32417605310341413== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1108886859" -------------------------------1108886859 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, the movement of any ferrous material within the inductor's field is going to affect its behaviour, because its inductance will change. My point is, you are going to have to do some work with known good injectors to ascertain what it should look like, and compare your injectors on that basis. I genuinely don't know what difference a stuck or lazy pintle will make, it can't be more than the order of a few percent or so, so the scope is going to have to be a good one, high resolution and accuracy, and preferably a DSO because you will be trying to capture transient events which don't necessarily repeat every inject cycle. I would be very interested to know whether anything shows up. I'm a relative newcomer to EFI stuff although a competent engineer, and this sounds like a really interesting practical diagnostic issue. Regards Will Cowell G0OPL -------------------------------1108886859 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well, the movement of any ferrous material within the inductor's field=20= is=20 going to affect its behaviour, because its inductance will change. My=20 point is, you are going to have to do some work with known good injectors to= =20 ascertain what it should look like, and compare your injectors on that=20 basis.

I genuinely don't know what difference a stuck or lazy pintle will make= , it=20 can't be more than the order of a few percent or so, so the scope=20= is=20 going to have to be a good one, high resolution and accuracy, and preferably= a=20 DSO because you will be trying to capture transient events which don't=20 necessarily repeat every inject cycle.

I would be very interested to know whether anything shows up. I'm= a=20 relative newcomer to EFI stuff although a competent engineer, and this sound= s=20 like a really interesting practical diagnostic issue.

Regards

Will Cowell

G0OPL

-------------------------------1108886859-- --===============32417605310341413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============32417605310341413==-- From rgranchelli at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 16:02:30 2005 From: rgranchelli at yahoo.com (ralph granchelli) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:02:30 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state Message-ID: --===============51979091667599242== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-740037667-1108915189=:15515" --0-740037667-1108915189=:15515 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The scope is an older tek analog mainframe scope I have had for years with 500MHZ Bw and 500psec/div resolution. It should see anything that can occur there. THe question is will I be able to tell what it all means since I have no experience looking at good or bad injectors. Since it is still raining here non stop for days now I will probably not get a chance to take a look at it until I can break out the ark to get to the garage Rgds, RG AZ J wrote: If your lab scope has sufficient resolution, you can pick up mechanical injector problems through the electrical signature. The movement of the pintle affects the magnetic field created by the coil, and therefore affects the current flow through the coil. Clogged injectors are hard to find this way, but a "sluggish" or weak injector will usually show up. _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. --0-740037667-1108915189=:15515 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

The scope is an older tek analog mainframe scope I have had for years with 500MHZ Bw and 500psec/div resolution. It should see anything that can occur there. THe question is will I be able to tell what it all means since I have no experience looking at good or bad injectors.

Since it is still raining here non stop for days now I will probably not get a chance to take a look at it until I can break out the ark to get to the garage

Rgds,

AZ

J <TheGreatJ at charter.net> wrote:

If your lab scope has sufficient resolution, you can pick up mechanical injector problems through the electrical signature. The movement of the pintle affects the magnetic field created by the coil, and therefore affects the current flow through the coil. Clogged injectors are hard to find this way, but a "sluggish" or weak injector will usually show up.
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Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. --0-740037667-1108915189=:15515-- --===============51979091667599242== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============51979091667599242==-- From mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com Sun Feb 20 17:22:10 2005 From: mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com (Marcello A. Belloli) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:22:10 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state Message-ID: RG, I just got a chance to read this thread. I agree that looking at the wavepattern of the electrical side of the injector will not tell you a lot about the mechanical end of the injector. But I know what would. What about using a map sensor on the fuel pressure regulator. You see the pressure pulses from each injector. Now this isn't perfect either, but when one or a couple of injectors are acting up you can easily see them. We've been using this meathod for a while at the shop I work. The injector wavepattern can show you the opening and closing of the valve in a perfect world, but not usually in the car. I took a one day class where they showed us how to see the opening, closing of an injector with a vertronix scope. But they were showing us with a dry inector, and the pattern was easy to see. When we went to go do the same thing on the car, it just didn't work that easy. We use a fuel tank pressure sensor...I'll find the part number tomorrow when I go to work, with a simply 7805 regulator. This is a map type sensor with a 0-4psi range...not the same as the one used for measuring engine vaccum. Just an idea. Marcello > Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions > > I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday > > I'll let you guys know what I see > > TNX & Rgds, > > RG > AZ > > Bret Levandowski wrote: > My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould > see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today. > Too much brain fry. Ski > > WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference > whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell > you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What > you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the > injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray > pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of > stuff. > > What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will > tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve > itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through > the winding. > > Regards > > Will > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second > Term'_______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn > more._______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From rgranchelli at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 17:47:39 2005 From: rgranchelli at yahoo.com (ralph granchelli) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:47:39 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts diagnosing lean state Message-ID: --===============072537618784318525== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-871699007-1108921507=:21394" --0-871699007-1108921507=:21394 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii That sounds very interesting.Bear in mind that this is a TBI four barrel and we are really only dealing with the two primary injectors when this occurs However sounds like a very interetsing diagnostic tip Would appreciate any further inputs TNX &Rgds, RG AZ "Marcello A. Belloli" wrote: RG, I just got a chance to read this thread. I agree that looking at the wavepattern of the electrical side of the injector will not tell you a lot about the mechanical end of the injector. But I know what would. What about using a map sensor on the fuel pressure regulator. You see the pressure pulses from each injector. Now this isn't perfect either, but when one or a couple of injectors are acting up you can easily see them. We've been using this meathod for a while at the shop I work. The injector wavepattern can show you the opening and closing of the valve in a perfect world, but not usually in the car. I took a one day class where they showed us how to see the opening, closing of an injector with a vertronix scope. But they were showing us with a dry inector, and the pattern was easy to see. When we went to go do the same thing on the car, it just didn't work that easy. We use a fuel tank pressure sensor...I'll find the part number tomorrow when I go to work, with a simply 7805 regulator. This is a map type sensor with a 0-4psi range...not the same as the one used for measuring engine vaccum. Just an idea. Marcello > Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions > > I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday > > I'll let you guys know what I see > > TNX & Rgds, > > RG > AZ > > Bret Levandowski wrote: > My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould > see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today. > Too much brain fry. Ski > > WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference > whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell > you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What > you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the > injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray > pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of > stuff. > > What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will > tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve > itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through > the winding. > > Regards > > Will > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second > Term'_______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn > more._______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-871699007-1108921507=:21394 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

That sounds very interesting.Bear in mind that this is a TBI four barrel and we are really only dealing with the two primary injectors when this occurs

However sounds like a very interetsing diagnostic tip

Would appreciate any further inputs

TNX &Rgds,

AZ

"Marcello A. Belloli" <mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com> wrote:

RG,
I just got a chance to read this thread. I agree that looking at the
wavepattern of the electrical side of the injector will not tell you
a lot about the mechanical end of the injector. But I know what
would. What about using a map sensor on the fuel pressure regulator.
You see the pressure pulses from each injector. Now this isn't
perfect either, but when one or a couple of injectors are acting up
you can easily see them. We've been using this meathod for a while
at the shop I work. The injector wavepattern can show you the
opening and closing of the valve in a perfect world, but not usually
in the car. I took a one day class where they showed us how to see
the opening, closing of an injector with a vertronix scope. But they
were showing us with a dry inector, and the pattern was easy to see.
When we went to go do the same thing on the car, it just didn't work
that easy. We use a fuel tank pressure sensor...I'll find the part
number tomorrow when I go to work, with a simply 7805 regulator.
This is a map type sensor with a 0-4psi range...not the same as the
one used for measuring engine vaccum. Just an idea.

Marcello

> Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions
>
> I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday
>
> I'll let you guys know what I see
>
> TNX & Rgds,
>
> RG
> AZ
>
> Bret Levandowski wrote:
> My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould
> see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today.
> Too much brain fry. Ski
>
> WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference
> whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell
> you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What
> you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the
> injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray
> pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of
> stuff.
>
> What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will
> tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve
> itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through
> the winding.
>
> Regards
>
> Will
>
> _______________________________________________
> diy_efi mailing list
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second
> Term'_______________________________________________
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>
>
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> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn
> more._______________________________________________
> diy_efi mailing list
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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>

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Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-871699007-1108921507=:21394-- --===============072537618784318525== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============072537618784318525==-- From rgranchelli at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 19:51:13 2005 From: rgranchelli at yahoo.com (ralph granchelli) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:51:13 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts - Not an EFI problem ! Message-ID: --===============36919174497743423== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-572492954-1108928891=:2861" --0-572492954-1108928891=:2861 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This morning armed with everyones inputs I went to the garage and fired up the pantera. The first thing I did was to examine the spray pattern of the primary injectors when running normally and when in what I used to call the lean state. There was definately a differnce. It also sounded to me like the timing was off when this happened Of course checking the timing on the Pantera is no small task.So I pulled the seats, interior and firewall cover. When starting and running normally the timing is about 12 BTDC. However when not running right, the timing is about 80BTDC So I have an ignition triggering problem and not an EFI problem after all I'll post the results when I figure it out TNX & Rgds RG AZ "Marcello A. Belloli" wrote: RG, I just got a chance to read this thread. I agree that looking at the wavepattern of the electrical side of the injector will not tell you a lot about the mechanical end of the injector. But I know what would. What about using a map sensor on the fuel pressure regulator. You see the pressure pulses from each injector. Now this isn't perfect either, but when one or a couple of injectors are acting up you can easily see them. We've been using this meathod for a while at the shop I work. The injector wavepattern can show you the opening and closing of the valve in a perfect world, but not usually in the car. I took a one day class where they showed us how to see the opening, closing of an injector with a vertronix scope. But they were showing us with a dry inector, and the pattern was easy to see. When we went to go do the same thing on the car, it just didn't work that easy. We use a fuel tank pressure sensor...I'll find the part number tomorrow when I go to work, with a simply 7805 regulator. This is a map type sensor with a 0-4psi range...not the same as the one used for measuring engine vaccum. Just an idea. Marcello > Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions > > I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday > > I'll let you guys know what I see > > TNX & Rgds, > > RG > AZ > > Bret Levandowski wrote: > My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould > see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today. > Too much brain fry. Ski > > WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference > whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell > you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What > you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the > injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray > pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of > stuff. > > What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will > tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve > itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through > the winding. > > Regards > > Will > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second > Term'_______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn > more._______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-572492954-1108928891=:2861 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

This morning armed with everyones inputs I went to the garage and fired up the pantera. The first thing I did was to examine the spray pattern of the primary injectors when running normally and when in what I used to call the lean state.

There was definately a differnce. It also sounded to me like the timing was off when this happened

Of course checking the timing on the Pantera is no small task.So I pulled the seats, interior and firewall cover. When starting and running normally the timing is about 12 BTDC. However when not running right, the timing is about 80BTDC

So I have an ignition triggering problem and not an EFI problem after all

I'll post the results when I figure it out

TNX & Rgds

AZ

"Marcello A. Belloli" <mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com> wrote:

RG,
I just got a chance to read this thread. I agree that looking at the
wavepattern of the electrical side of the injector will not tell you
a lot about the mechanical end of the injector. But I know what
would. What about using a map sensor on the fuel pressure regulator.
You see the pressure pulses from each injector. Now this isn't
perfect either, but when one or a couple of injectors are acting up
you can easily see them. We've been using this meathod for a while
at the shop I work. The injector wavepattern can show you the
opening and closing of the valve in a perfect world, but not usually
in the car. I took a one day class where they showed us how to see
the opening, closing of an injector with a vertronix scope. But they
were showing us with a dry inector, and the pattern was easy to see.
When we went to go do the same thing on the car, it just didn't work
that easy. We use a fuel tank pressure sensor...I'll find the part
number tomorrow when I go to work, with a simply 7805 regulator.
This is a map type sensor with a 0-4psi range...not the same as the
one used for measuring engine vaccum. Just an idea.

Marcello

> Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions
>
> I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday
>
> I'll let you guys know what I see
>
> TNX & Rgds,
>
> RG
> AZ
>
> Bret Levandowski wrote:
> My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould
> see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today.
> Too much brain fry. Ski
>
> WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference
> whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell
> you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What
> you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the
> injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray
> pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of
> stuff.
>
> What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will
> tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve
> itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through
> the winding.
>
> Regards
>
> Will
>
> _______________________________________________
> diy_efi mailing list
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second
> Term'_______________________________________________
> diy_efi mailing list
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn
> more._______________________________________________
> diy_efi mailing list
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>

_______________________________________________
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Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-572492954-1108928891=:2861-- --===============36919174497743423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============36919174497743423==-- From skishop69 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 23:16:36 2005 From: skishop69 at yahoo.com (Bret Levandowski) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:16:36 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts - Not an EFI problem ! Message-ID: --===============11694435241784795== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1941540780-1108941217=:36138" --0-1941540780-1108941217=:36138 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It actually ran @80!! Check your pick-up assembly in the dist. With the Pantera, you'll find one of two things. They might be corroded causing magnetic flux and false triggering. Also, check the top of the shaft for lateral play. One other thing to check, but you'll have to pull the dist. The roll pin that holds the drive gear to the dist shaft may no longer be, or may be loose. Ford had a problem with both the bushings and the roll pins. HTH... Ski ralph granchelli wrote:This morning armed with everyones inputs I went to the garage and fired up the pantera. The first thing I did was to examine the spray pattern of the primary injectors when running normally and when in what I used to call the lean state. There was definately a differnce. It also sounded to me like the timing was off when this happened Of course checking the timing on the Pantera is no small task.So I pulled the seats, interior and firewall cover. When starting and running normally the timing is about 12 BTDC. However when not running right, the timing is about 80BTDC So I have an ignition triggering problem and not an EFI problem after all I'll post the results when I figure it out TNX & Rgds RG AZ "Marcello A. Belloli" wrote: RG, I just got a chance to read this thread. I agree that looking at the wavepattern of the electrical side of the injector will not tell you a lot about the mechanical end of the injector. But I know what would. What about using a map sensor on the fuel pressure regulator. You see the pressure pulses from each injector. Now this isn't perfect either, but when one or a couple of injectors are acting up you can easily see them. We've been using this meathod for a while at the shop I work. The injector wavepattern can show you the opening and closing of the valve in a perfect world, but not usually in the car. I took a one day class where they showed us how to see the opening, closing of an injector with a vertronix scope. But they were showing us with a dry inector, and the pattern was easy to see. When we went to go do the same thing on the car, it just didn't work that easy. We use a fuel tank pressure sensor...I'll find the part number tomorrow when I go to work, with a simply 7805 regulator. This is a map type sensor with a 0-4psi range...not the same as the one used for measuring engine vaccum. Just an idea. Marcello > Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions > > I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday > > I'll let you guys know what I see > > TNX & Rgds, > > RG > AZ > > Bret Levandowski wrote: > My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould > see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today. > Too much brain fry. Ski > > WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference > whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell > you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What > you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the > injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray > pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of > stuff. > > What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will > tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve > itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through > the winding. > > Regards > > Will > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second > Term'_______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn > more._______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'_______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1941540780-1108941217=:36138 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

It actually ran @80!! Check your pick-up assembly in the dist. With the Pantera, you'll find one of two things. They might be corroded causing magnetic flux and false triggering. Also, check the top of the shaft for lateral play. One other thing to check, but you'll have to pull the dist. The roll pin that holds the drive gear to the dist shaft may no longer be, or may be loose. Ford had a problem with both the bushings and the roll pins. HTH... Ski

ralph granchelli <rgranchelli at yahoo.com> wrote:

This morning armed with everyones inputs I went to the garage and fired up the pantera. The first thing I did was to examine the spray pattern of the primary injectors when running normally and when in what I used to call the lean state.

There was definately a differnce. It also sounded to me like the timing was off when this happened

Of course checking the timing on the Pantera is no small task.So I pulled the seats, interior and firewall cover. When starting and running normally the timing is about 12 BTDC. However when not running right, the timing is about 80BTDC

So I have an ignition triggering problem and not an EFI problem after all

I'll post the results when I figure it out

TNX & Rgds

RG

AZ

"Marcello A. Belloli" <mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com> wrote:

RG,
I just got a chance to read this thread. I agree that looking at the
wavepattern of the electrical side of the injector will not tell you
a lot about the mechanical end of the injector. But I know what
would. What about using a map sensor on the fuel pressure regulator.
You see the pressure pulses from each injector. Now this isn't
perfect either, but when one or a couple of injectors are acting up
you can easily see them. We've been using this meathod for a while
at the shop I work. The injector wavepattern can show you the
opening and closing of the valve in a perfect world, but not usually
in the car. I took a one day class where they showed us how to see
the opening, closing of an injector with a vertronix scope. But they
were showing us with a dry inector, and the pattern was easy to see.
When we went to go do the same thing on the car, it just didn't work
that easy. We use a fuel tank pressure sensor...I'll find the part
number tomorrow when I go to work, with a simply 7805 regulator.
This is a map type sensor with a 0-4psi range...not the same as the
one used for measuring engine vaccum. Just an idea.

Marcello

> Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions
>
> I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday
>
> I'll let you guys know what I see
>
> TNX & Rgds,
>
> RG
> AZ
>
> Bret Levandowski wrote:
> My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould
> see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today.
> Too much brain fry. Ski
>
> WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference
> whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell
> you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What
> you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the
> injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray
> pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of
> stuff.
>
> What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will
> tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve
> itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through
> the winding.
>
> Regards
>
> Will
>
> _______________________________________________
> diy_efi mailing list
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second
> Term'_______________________________________________
> diy_efi mailing list
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn
> more._______________________________________________
> diy_efi mailing list
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>

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Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1941540780-1108941217=:36138-- --===============11694435241784795== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============11694435241784795==-- From rgranchelli at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 00:15:01 2005 From: rgranchelli at yahoo.com (ralph granchelli) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:15:01 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Need help from the experts - Your going to love this Message-ID: --===============17638135014280421== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1364524818-1108944758=:74579" --0-1364524818-1108944758=:74579 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Because of the variable timing issue I went to the distributor.For a distributor I used a Crane Street/race optically triggered distributor with programmable centrifugal and vacuum advance. It has a built in MAP sensor. I pulled the cap to check out the led and receiver and to my surprise the rotor metal contact is all chewed up and the cap graphire center section is nuked. I checked to make sure the rotor was fully seated and the roll pin on the top was not fully pressed in causing the rotor to ride aboul 10 mils too high. Rgds, RG Bret Levandowski wrote: It actually ran @80!! Check your pick-up assembly in the dist. With the Pantera, you'll find one of two things. They might be corroded causing magnetic flux and false triggering. Also, check the top of the shaft for lateral play. One other thing to check, but you'll have to pull the dist. The roll pin that holds the drive gear to the dist shaft may no longer be, or may be loose. Ford had a problem with both the bushings and the roll pins. HTH... Ski ralph granchelli wrote: This morning armed with everyones inputs I went to the garage and fired up the pantera. The first thing I did was to examine the spray pattern of the primary injectors when running normally and when in what I used to call the lean state. There was definately a differnce. It also sounded to me like the timing was off when this happened Of course checking the timing on the Pantera is no small task.So I pulled the seats, interior and firewall cover. When starting and running normally the timing is about 12 BTDC. However when not running right, the timing is about 80BTDC So I have an ignition triggering problem and not an EFI problem after all I'll post the results when I figure it out TNX & Rgds RG AZ "Marcello A. Belloli" wrote: RG, I just got a chance to read this thread. I agree that looking at the wavepattern of the electrical side of the injector will not tell you a lot about the mechanical end of the injector. But I know what would. What about using a map sensor on the fuel pressure regulator. You see the pressure pulses from each injector. Now this isn't perfect either, but when one or a couple of injectors are acting up you can easily see them. We've been using this meathod for a while at the shop I work. The injector wavepattern can show you the opening and closing of the valve in a perfect world, but not usually in the car. I took a one day class where they showed us how to see the opening, closing of an injector with a vertronix scope. But they were showing us with a dry inector, and the pattern was easy to see. When we went to go do the same thing on the car, it just didn't work that easy. We use a fuel tank pressure sensor...I'll find the part number tomorrow when I go to work, with a simply 7805 regulator. This is a map type sensor with a 0-4psi range...not the same as the one used for measuring engine vaccum. Just an idea. Marcello > Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions > > I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday > > I'll let you guys know what I see > > TNX & Rgds, > > RG > AZ > > Bret Levandowski wrote: > My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould > see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today. > Too much brain fry. Ski > > WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference > whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell > you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What > you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the > injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray > pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of > stuff. > > What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will > tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve > itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through > the winding. > > Regards > > Will > > _______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second > Term'_______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn > more._______________________________________________ > diy_efi mailing list > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'_______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'_______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1364524818-1108944758=:74579 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Because of the variable timing issue I went to the distributor.For a distributor I used a Crane Street/race optically triggered distributor with programmable centrifugal and vacuum advance. It has a built in MAP sensor.

I pulled the cap to check out the led and receiver and to my surprise the rotor metal contact is all chewed up and the cap graphire center section is nuked. I checked to make sure the rotor was fully seated and the roll pin on the top was not fully pressed in causing the rotor to ride aboul 10 mils too high.

Rgds,

Bret Levandowski <skishop69 at yahoo.com> wrote:

It actually ran @80!! Check your pick-up assembly in the dist. With the Pantera, you'll find one of two things. They might be corroded causing magnetic flux and false triggering. Also, check the top of the shaft for lateral play. One other thing to check, but you'll have to pull the dist. The roll pin that holds the drive gear to the dist shaft may no longer be, or may be loose. Ford had a problem with both the bushings and the roll pins. HTH... Ski

ralph granchelli <rgranchelli at yahoo.com> wrote:

This morning armed with everyones inputs I went to the garage and fired up the pantera. The first thing I did was to examine the spray pattern of the primary injectors when running normally and when in what I used to call the lean state.

There was definately a differnce. It also sounded to me like the timing was off when this happened

Of course checking the timing on the Pantera is no small task.So I pulled the seats, interior and firewall cover. When starting and running normally the timing is about 12 BTDC. However when not running right, the timing is about 80BTDC

So I have an ignition triggering problem and not an EFI problem after all

I'll post the results when I figure it out

TNX & Rgds

RG

AZ

"Marcello A. Belloli" <mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com> wrote:

RG,
I just got a chance to read this thread. I agree that looking at the
wavepattern of the electrical side of the injector will not tell you
a lot about the mechanical end of the injector. But I know what
would. What about using a map sensor on the fuel pressure regulator.
You see the pressure pulses from each injector. Now this isn't
perfect either, but when one or a couple of injectors are acting up
you can easily see them. We've been using this meathod for a while
at the shop I work. The injector wavepattern can show you the
opening and closing of the valve in a perfect world, but not usually
in the car. I took a one day class where they showed us how to see
the opening, closing of an injector with a vertronix scope. But they
were showing us with a dry inector, and the pattern was easy to see.
When we went to go do the same thing on the car, it just didn't work
that easy. We use a fuel tank pressure sensor...I'll find the part
number tomorrow when I go to work, with a simply 7805 regulator.
This is a map type sensor with a 0-4psi range...not the same as the
one used for measuring engine vaccum. Just an idea.

Marcello

> Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions
>
> I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday
>
> I'll let you guys know what I see
>
> TNX & Rgds,
>
> RG
> AZ
>
> Bret Levandowski wrote:
> My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould
> see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today.
> Too much brain fry. Ski
>
> WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference
> whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell
> you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What
> you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the
> injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray
> pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of
> stuff.
>
> What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will
> tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve
> itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through
> the winding.
>
> Regards
>
> Will
>
> _______________________________________________
> diy_efi mailing list
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>
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Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --0-1364524818-1108944758=:74579-- --===============17638135014280421== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============17638135014280421==-- From RFEHN at amfam.com Mon Feb 21 15:54:08 2005 From: RFEHN at amfam.com (Fehn, Ron G) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:54:08 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227747 AE question Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============55079508104319597== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5182D.2C2486F0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5182D.2C2486F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i would suggest that TPS AE is immediate and possibly less duration as far as time on. MAP AE is possibly longer in duration and dependent in the MAP sensor "seeing" the need. i assumed for one season i had inadequate AE or PS as i was bogging. i thought my mods allowed me to flow air easier than fuel so i upped AE. I went too far. i discovered with a WB installed. i was off the scale at 8.0/1. i removed considerable from AE tables and it is so much better. need to fine tune AE this spring. AE is difficult to tune IMO as it will not show in scanning. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Bret Levandowski Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 7:47 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227747 AE question Ok, I figured out my PE bog. Turns out the guy who had practically every table set wrong had the spark table way wrong. Anywhere from 3 - 15 degrees. As far as AE, there is AE Vs MAP and AE Vs TPS, I understand that this is a calculated 'pump shot' based on TPS or MAP input. What I don't get is why you need both. Is one for 'off the line' and the other for sudden stabs while cruising? Do the tables add together? Hope someone can give a good detailed answer. The reason I ask is that I have a nasty hesitation off the line, but only when the outside temp is below 60 deg F and I'm in CL. I'm assuming that one of these tables is too low such that with the denser air it's too lean. Thanks, Ski __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 http://mail.yahoo.com=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5182D.2C2486F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

i=20 would suggest that TPS AE is immediate and possibly less duration as far = as time=20 on. MAP AE is possibly longer in duration and dependent in the MAP = sensor=20 "seeing" the need. i assumed for one season i had inadequate AE or = PS as i=20 was bogging. i thought my mods allowed me to flow air easier than = fuel so=20 i upped AE. I went too far. i discovered with a WB = installed. =20 i was off the scale at 8.0/1. i removed considerable from AE = tables and it=20 is so much better. need to fine tune AE this spring. AE is = difficult=20 to tune IMO as it will not show in scanning.

-----Original Message-----
From: = diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org=20 [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Bret=20 Levandowski
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 7:47 = PM
To:=20 diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227747 AE=20 question

Ok, I figured out my PE bog. Turns out the guy who had practically = every=20 table set wrong had the spark table way wrong. Anywhere from 3 - 15 = degrees. As=20 far as AE, there is AE Vs MAP and AE Vs TPS, I understand that this is a = calculated 'pump shot' based on TPS or MAP input. What I don't get is = why you=20 need both. Is one for 'off the line' and the other for sudden stabs = while=20 cruising? Do the tables add together? Hope someone can give a good = detailed=20 answer. The reason I ask is that I have a nasty hesitation off the line, = but=20 only when the outside temp is below 60 deg F and I'm in CL. I'm assuming = that=20 one of these tables is too low such that with the denser air it's too=20 lean. Thanks, Ski

__________________________________________________
Do You = Yahoo!?
Tired=20 of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20
http://mail.yahoo.com

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5182D.2C2486F0-- --===============55079508104319597== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============55079508104319597==-- From krw at efn.org Mon Feb 21 16:12:41 2005 From: krw at efn.org (Karl Walter) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:12:41 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227747 AE question Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2907723971509204== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01C517EC.C728FCC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C517EC.C728FCC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageAll Right, I guess cheap bums like me need to bite the bullet and = get a WB o2 monitor. This is another case were switching o2 monitoring = just doesn't cut it, am I right? --Karl ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Fehn, Ron G=20 To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI=20 Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:51 AM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] 1227747 AE question i would suggest that TPS AE is immediate and possibly less duration as = far as time on. MAP AE is possibly longer in duration and dependent in = the MAP sensor "seeing" the need. i assumed for one season i had = inadequate AE or PS as i was bogging. i thought my mods allowed me to = flow air easier than fuel so i upped AE. I went too far. i discovered = with a WB installed. i was off the scale at 8.0/1. i removed = considerable from AE tables and it is so much better. need to fine tune = AE this spring. AE is difficult to tune IMO as it will not show in = scanning. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] = On Behalf Of Bret Levandowski Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 7:47 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227747 AE question Ok, I figured out my PE bog. Turns out the guy who had practically = every table set wrong had the spark table way wrong. Anywhere from 3 - = 15 degrees. As far as AE, there is AE Vs MAP and AE Vs TPS, I understand = that this is a calculated 'pump shot' based on TPS or MAP input. What I = don't get is why you need both. Is one for 'off the line' and the other = for sudden stabs while cruising? Do the tables add together? Hope = someone can give a good detailed answer. The reason I ask is that I have = a nasty hesitation off the line, but only when the outside temp is below = 60 deg F and I'm in CL. I'm assuming that one of these tables is too low = such that with the denser air it's too lean. Thanks, Ski __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 http://mail.yahoo.com=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C517EC.C728FCC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

All Right, I guess cheap bums like me = need to bite=20 the bullet and get a WB o2 monitor. This is another case were switching = o2=20 monitoring just doesn't cut it, am I right?

--Karl

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Fehn, Ron = G

In a message dated 25/02/2005 14:11:55 GMT Standard Time,=20 michael at fastmail.ca writes:

<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>IMHO the=20 best way to do this is simply to get a voltage to frequency
converter=20 chip. Although not strictly PWM it does work for a boost
controller. T= his=20 was one of my first designs before I did one that was
fully=20 digital.

-Michael

> I need to change an analog 0-5v= =20 signal to a pwm signal to control a
> boost controller. how do I do=20 it?
> can any one help
> thanks Brent
<= /DIV>

A VFC chip will produce a variable frequency output but it is likely to= be=20 at a constant duty cycle, which by itself would be useless. Try follow= ing=20 the VFC chip with a one-shot like a 555, that should do the trick.

Will Cowell

G0OPL

-------------------------------1109341631-- --===============0230625634390067== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============0230625634390067==-- From bearbvd at mindspring.com Fri Feb 25 14:49:46 2005 From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:49:46 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Knock sensing - water injection Message-ID: At 4:36 AM 2/25/05, hugh at sol.co.uk wrote: >Greg, > >Assuming you agree with the concept that pre-ignition is caused by the >cylinder pressure in general reaching a critical pressure and detonation is >caused by local hot spot / high pressure area. > >It then follows that squish will go forom becoming a combustion improving >device to one that causes a local increase in pressure and can therefore be >a point of detonation. > >How many big power drag engines do you see with squish still in place? > >Hugh Burning nitro is a WHOLE different deal--- Greg > >Original Message: >----------------- >From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann) >Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:22:12 -0700 >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Knock sensing - water injection > > >At 9:28 PM 2/24/05, Gary wrote: >>> "slowing down the burn rate' is about the opposite of what you want to >>> avoid end gas detonation--- > >Getting rid of squish increases detonation. Adding/tightening squish >generally reduces it. Squish most definitely increases the rate of flame >propogation. > >End gas detonation is a function of time the mixture spends at high temp >and pressure. Reduce the time, and the tendency to detonate is reduced. >Ref: Obert, 'Internal Combustion Engines and Air Pollution'. > >Yes, higher octane fuel is more resistant to detonation, and, as a >by-product, has a slower burn rate. But, see above. > >Adding an internal coolant--water, methanol, or even more fuel -- reduces >the temp/pressure side of the detonation equation. > >Water ALSO 'facilitates' combustion. Ref: Irwin Glassman, 'Combustion'. > >There are other tricks, as well--try looking at what Waukesha did with a >second spark plug located so as to light and burn the end gas well before >the flame front raised its pressure/temp sufficiently for it to get into >the detonation area !! And--THIS was done on a FLATHEAD, of all things !!! > >BTW-- Obert and Glassman are guys who did original, basic research--NOT >parrots ! > >Greg >> >>There are those that believe running a richer mixture delays the onset >>of detonation, due to a cooling effect of the extra fuel. Actually, fuel >is >>a >>rather inefficient means of cooling the combustion mixture, especially >>when compared to H2O. Although running with a richer mix can result >>in cooler operation, it is really a secondary effect, and not the true >>cause. >> >>Combustion speed reaches it's max at around 50-75*F RICH of peak >>exhaust gas temp. Either by adding additional fuel, or taking a step in >>the opposite direction, by operating the engine 50-75*F LEAN of peak >>exhaust gas temp, will SLOW the combustion rate, and DELAY the point >>at which peak chamber pressure occurs, and go to great lengths in >>eliminating the risk of detonation. Combustion is most efficient when >>the point of peak combustion pressure occurs at 16-18* ATDC. >>Therefore the true reason for the delay of detonaton from richer mixture, >>(or better yet, from a leaner mixture) appears to be due to the peak >>combustion pressure occuring LATER. So Bear.... AFAIC, this suggests >>the frame front is being SLOWED down. The research was performed >>by General Aviation Modification, Inc. located in OK. >> >>GAS >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Greg Hermann" >>To: "A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI" >>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:22 PM >>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Knock sensing - water injection >> >> >>> At 10:32 AM 2/25/05, Geoff Harrison wrote: >>> >Hi all. >>> >IIRC, knocking = pre-ignition = detonation, >>> >>> NOPE. >>> >>> Pre-ignition does NOT equal detonation. >>> >>> The other things which you are stating as 'sort-of' facts are also pretty >>> wildly distorted. >>> >>> If you look through the archives, there is PLENTY of info on what H2O >>> injection can do, and why it does it. Your so-called 'rate of expansion' >>> ain't it at all--but water's very high latent heat of vaporization has >>> quite a lot to do with it--as does its ability to facilitate hydrocarbon >>> combustion. >>> >>> "slowing down the burn rate' is about the opposite of what you want to >>> avoid end gas detonation--- >>> >>> Greg >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>diy_efi mailing list >>diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > >_______________________________________________ >diy_efi mailing list >diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >mail2web - Check your email from the web at >http://mail2web.com/ . > > >_______________________________________________ >diy_efi mailing list >diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 15:35:02 2005 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:35:02 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings Message-ID: --===============25534966777317303== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-910635654-1109345486=:86293" --0-910635654-1109345486=:86293 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hey all, I tried to check the pulses comming on that tach signal but to my dispise the fluke multi meter I have does not read HZ... any cheap and easy ideas??? jim --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --0-910635654-1109345486=:86293 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hey all, I tried to check the pulses comming on that tach signal but to my dispise the fluke multi meter I have does not read HZ... any cheap and easy ideas???

jim

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --0-910635654-1109345486=:86293-- --===============25534966777317303== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============25534966777317303==-- From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 25 15:44:28 2005 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David Cooley) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:44:28 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============41489170520662705== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C51B26.6623B310" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C51B26.6623B310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a small speaker with a cap in series and you should be able to hear the signal _____ From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:31 AM To: efi list Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings Hey all, I tried to check the pulses comming on that tach signal but to my dispise the fluke multi meter I have does not read HZ... any cheap and easy ideas??? jim _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C51B26.6623B310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

a small speaker with a cap in series and you = should be able=20 to hear the signal

From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org=20 [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim=20 Butterfield
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:31 = AM
To:=20 efi list
Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse = readings

Hey all, I tried to check the pulses comming on that tach signal = but to=20 my dispise the fluke multi meter I have does not read HZ... any cheap = and easy=20 ideas???

jim

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo!=20 Mail - Helps protect you from nasty = viruses. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C51B26.6623B310-- --===============41489170520662705== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============41489170520662705==-- From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 16:01:32 2005 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:01:32 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings Message-ID: --===============32332126282857354== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1626941817-1109347003=:30214" --0-1626941817-1109347003=:30214 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii nice... very nice, I think Ive an old 3" car speaker laying around I use to use for testing... thx jim David Cooley wrote: a small speaker with a cap in series and you should be able to hear the signal --------------------------------- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:31 AM To: efi list Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings Hey all, I tried to check the pulses comming on that tach signal but to my dispise the fluke multi meter I have does not read HZ... any cheap and easy ideas??? jim --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses._______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. --0-1626941817-1109347003=:30214 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

nice... very nice, I think Ive an old 3" car speaker laying around I use to use for testing...

thx

jim

David Cooley <n5xmt at bellsouth.net> wrote:

a small speaker with a cap in series and you should be able to hear the signal

From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:31 AM
To: efi list
Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings

Hey all, I tried to check the pulses comming on that tach signal but to my dispise the fluke multi meter I have does not read HZ... any cheap and easy ideas???

jim

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
_______________________________________________
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diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. --0-1626941817-1109347003=:30214-- --===============32332126282857354== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============32332126282857354==-- From A6intruder at adelphia.net Fri Feb 25 16:02:47 2005 From: A6intruder at adelphia.net (Daniel Nicoson) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:02:47 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Knock sensing - water injection Message-ID: Greg, I remember you saying that before I did the testing. I'd have to look at my notes to see what I actually did. Last night's post was off the top of my head (sometimes a poor memory...) Dan Nicoson -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Greg Hermann Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 1:32 AM To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Knock sensing - water injection At 11:10 PM 2/24/05, Daniel Nicoson wrote: Dan-- You should actually make more power at about 14.2 than at 14.7 with the WI. At a slight penalty in bsfc. This is because with the slightly richer mixture, you will selectively burn hydrogen and add the first O to the carbon. Adding the second O to carbon--to get from CO to CO2-- gives less heat of combustion than the prior steps do, thus the gain in power with the slightly rich of stoich mixture for a given amount of O2 getting pumped through the motor. Greg >I've been working on a sequential water injection system for almost two >years now. I did 21 dyno pulls last fall testing out a few ideas. I was >able to show about a 10% fuel savings at high load by running a very lean >mixture (14.7) and making up the internal cooling with the water. > >When the snow goes away, I'm going to use the same system to experiment with >30% nitro and 70% methanol, see if I can make more power on account of the >nitro... > >Lots of WI info on the web. Several interesting papers in the NACA archives >from WWII aircraft research. Google. Google. > >All my dyno stuff and possibly those NACA papers are on my web site >www.myo-p.com > >Have fun. > >Dan Nicoson > > >-----Original Message----- >From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On >Behalf Of Gary >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 10:28 PM >To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Knock sensing - water injection > > >> "slowing down the burn rate' is about the opposite of what you want to >> avoid end gas detonation--- > >There are those that believe running a richer mixture delays the onset >of detonation, due to a cooling effect of the extra fuel. Actually, fuel is >a >rather inefficient means of cooling the combustion mixture, especially >when compared to H2O. Although running with a richer mix can result >in cooler operation, it is really a secondary effect, and not the true >cause. > >Combustion speed reaches it's max at around 50-75*F RICH of peak >exhaust gas temp. Either by adding additional fuel, or taking a step in >the opposite direction, by operating the engine 50-75*F LEAN of peak >exhaust gas temp, will SLOW the combustion rate, and DELAY the point >at which peak chamber pressure occurs, and go to great lengths in >eliminating the risk of detonation. Combustion is most efficient when >the point of peak combustion pressure occurs at 16-18* ATDC. >Therefore the true reason for the delay of detonaton from richer mixture, >(or better yet, from a leaner mixture) appears to be due to the peak >combustion pressure occuring LATER. So Bear.... AFAIC, this suggests >the frame front is being SLOWED down. The research was performed >by General Aviation Modification, Inc. located in OK. > >GAS > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Greg Hermann" >To: "A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI" >Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:22 PM >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Knock sensing - water injection > > >> At 10:32 AM 2/25/05, Geoff Harrison wrote: >> >Hi all. >> >IIRC, knocking = pre-ignition = detonation, >> >> NOPE. >> >> Pre-ignition does NOT equal detonation. >> >> The other things which you are stating as 'sort-of' facts are also pretty >> wildly distorted. >> >> If you look through the archives, there is PLENTY of info on what H2O >> injection can do, and why it does it. Your so-called 'rate of expansion' >> ain't it at all--but water's very high latent heat of vaporization has >> quite a lot to do with it--as does its ability to facilitate hydrocarbon >> combustion. >> >> "slowing down the burn rate' is about the opposite of what you want to >> avoid end gas detonation--- >> >> Greg > > >_______________________________________________ >diy_efi mailing list >diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >_______________________________________________ >diy_efi mailing list >diy_efi at diy-efi.org >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Fri Feb 25 16:53:10 2005 From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:53:10 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --===============098819413509977139== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C51B53.71D335F0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51B53.71D335F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" GM's 87- 90's mini vans intake manifold. Full size Vans under driver seat with ECM. S10/ full size trucks/cars mounted on firewall. Might be behind other module (firebird/camaro) Will have in big letters on paper tag " HKR" Good hunting -----Original Message----- From: Rausch, Bernd [mailto:br at rnt.de] Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 3:59 AM To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI Subject: AW: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors Sorry, I do not understand. Where do I get these modules and on what cars are they used? Bernd _____ Von: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] Im Auftrag von don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Februar 2005 15:38 An: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Betreff: RE: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors AASS,HKD,HKM,HKR,BLN, AFWB,ANBZ -----Original Message----- From: Rausch, Bernd [mailto:br at rnt.de] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 4:47 AM To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI Subject: AW: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors Hi Don, from what vehicles are these ext det modules? What is the latest module? Best regards, Bernd _____ Von: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] Im Auftrag von don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. Februar 2005 16:03 An: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Betreff: RE: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors I have collected 14 different sensors for testing and have only found the DR number or in the case of a Quad 4 10456209 number. The last 4 digits are the date code. Usually the year and day of manufacture (Julian Calendar). I have profiled the sensors by getting a 1/4 NPT pipe coupling and screwing one sensor in one end and another sensor in the other end. I set up with 2 DR562 sensors. I applied a sine wave from a HP 3324A to one sensor and looked at the output of the other sensor with a Nicolet 440 scope. with 1 VPP amplitude I sweep the frequencies from 1Khz to 50 Khz The highest amplitude was always at 6 Khz. Of the 14 sensors I tested they all responded the same. I concluded that the sensors are not all that different and could be interchanged.I then tested 9 external det modules from AASS,HKD,HKR,BLN,ANBZ ect. The output is 10 volt until between 4 Khz and 12 Khz the output would go low . Again 6 Khz was the sweet spot. -----Original Message----- From: David Dowell [mailto:dowelljd at alltel.net] Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:22 PM To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI Subject: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors Hi All, I went to the junk yard to gather parts and pulled several knock sensors off of Chevy Suburbans with 350 CID engines. When I got back to the house with them and cleaned them up, none have the GM numbers that are listed as being for 350s. In fact, all the sensors have a number that starts with DR-699-#### where the # is a number. In addition, all of them have different numbers for the last 4 numbers (####). Can anyone out there tell me what these numbers are for? Do you have a cross reference to the GM part #'s. Thanks for the help. Dave ************************************************************************ This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ************************************************************************ ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51B53.71D335F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

GM's 87- 90's mini vans intake manifold. Full size Vans under driver seat with ECM. S10/ full size trucks/cars mounted on firewall. Might be behind other module (firebird/camaro) Will have in big letters on paper tag " HKR" Good hunting

-----Original Message-----
From: Rausch, Bernd [mailto:br at rnt.de]
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 3:59 AM
To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI
Subject: AW: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors

Sorry, I do not understand. Where do I get these modules and on what cars are they used?

Bernd

Von: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] Im Auftrag von don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Februar 2005 15:38
An: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Betreff: RE: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors

AASS,HKD,HKM,HKR,BLN, AFWB,ANBZ

-----Original Message-----
From: Rausch, Bernd [mailto:br at rnt.de]
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 4:47 AM
To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI
Subject: AW: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors

Hi Don,

from what vehicles are these ext det modules? What is the latest module?

Best regards,

Bernd

Von: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] Im Auftrag von don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. Februar 2005 16:03
An: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Betreff: RE: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors

I have collected 14 different sensors for testing and have only found the DR number or in the case of a Quad 4 10456209 number.

The last 4 digits are the date code. Usually the year and day of manufacture (Julian Calendar). I have profiled the sensors by getting a 1/4 NPT pipe coupling and screwing one sensor in one end and another sensor in the other end. I set up with 2 DR562      sensors. I applied a sine wave from a HP 3324A to one sensor and looked at the output of the other sensor with a Nicolet 440 scope. with 1 VPP amplitude I sweep the frequencies from 1Khz to 50 Khz The highest amplitude was always at 6 Khz. Of the 14

sensors I tested they all responded the same. I concluded that the sensors are not all that different and could be interchanged.I then tested 9 external det modules from AASS,HKD,HKR,BLN,ANBZ ect. The output is 10 volt until between 4 Khz and 12 Khz the output would go low . Again 6 Khz was the sweet spot.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Dowell [mailto:dowelljd at alltel.net]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 8:22 PM
To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI
Subject: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors

Hi All,

I went to the junk yard to gather parts and pulled several knock sensors off of Chevy Suburbans with 350 CID engines.

When I got back to the house with them and cleaned them up, none have the GM numbers that are listed as being for 350s. In fact, all the sensors have a number that starts with DR-699-#### where the # is a number. In addition, all of them have different numbers for the last 4 numbers (####).

Can anyone out there tell me what these numbers are for? Do you have a cross reference to the GM part #'s.

Thanks for the help.

Dave

************************************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject
to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies.
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity
to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this
e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments
to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and
permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any
printout. Thank You.
************************************************************************

------_=_NextPart_001_01C51B53.71D335F0-- --===============098819413509977139== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============098819413509977139==-- From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 16:55:09 2005 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:55:09 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading Message-ID: --===============19116644410717321== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-224607139-1109348286=:17572" --0-224607139-1109348286=:17572 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello all, Im hunting around on the net looking for good material on OBD II material, Ive found some books at amazon, but anyone know of good websites for free reading??? jim --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. --0-224607139-1109348286=:17572 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hello all, Im hunting around on the net looking for good material on OBD II material, Ive found some books at amazon, but anyone know of good websites for free reading???

jim

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. --0-224607139-1109348286=:17572-- --===============19116644410717321== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============19116644410717321==-- From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 25 17:27:08 2005 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David Cooley) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:27:08 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading Message-ID: http://www.hptuners.com/forum/YaBB.pl ________________________________ From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 11:18 AM To: efi list Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading Hello all, Im hunting around on the net looking for good material on OBD II material, Ive found some books at amazon, but anyone know of good websites for free reading??? jim _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 18:38:09 2005 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:38:09 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading Message-ID: --===============62052609762078714== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-385625223-1109356474=:10189" --0-385625223-1109356474=:10189 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks Dave I do watch alot of the grand prix related BB's like clubgp.com tuning section, also 3800tech.com tuning sections and they HPtuners you mentioned. Appreciate your input... jim David Cooley wrote: http://www.hptuners.com/forum/YaBB.pl ________________________________ From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 11:18 AM To: efi list Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading Hello all, Im hunting around on the net looking for good material on OBD II material, Ive found some books at amazon, but anyone know of good websites for free reading??? jim _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. --0-385625223-1109356474=:10189 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Thanks Dave I do watch alot of the grand prix related BB's like clubgp.com tuning section, also 3800tech.com tuning sections and they HPtuners you mentioned. Appreciate your input...

jim

David Cooley <n5xmt at bellsouth.net> wrote:

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/YaBB.pl

________________________________

From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org
[mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 11:18 AM
To: efi list
Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading

Hello all, Im hunting around on the net looking for good material on
OBD II material, Ive found some books at amazon, but anyone know of good
websites for free reading???

jim

_______________________________________________
diy_efi mailing list
diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. --0-385625223-1109356474=:10189-- --===============62052609762078714== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============62052609762078714==-- From WSCowell at aol.com Fri Feb 25 19:19:08 2005 From: WSCowell at aol.com (WSCowell at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:19:08 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings Message-ID: --===============79162360414782196== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1109358716" -------------------------------1109358716 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, Trust a ham to come up with something simple and elegant! Will G0OPL -------------------------------1109358716 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dave,

Trust a ham to come up with something simple and elegant!

Will

G0OPL

-------------------------------1109358716-- --===============79162360414782196== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============79162360414782196==-- From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 25 19:24:35 2005 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David Cooley) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:24:35 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============96740080605586032== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006A_01C51B45.23ACD5B0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01C51B45.23ACD5B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of Course LOL _____ From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of WSCowell at aol.com Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:12 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] pulse readings Dave, Trust a ham to come up with something simple and elegant! Will G0OPL ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01C51B45.23ACD5B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Of Course=20 LOL

From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org=20 [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of=20 WSCowell at aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:12=20 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] = pulse=20 readings

Dave,

Trust a ham to come up with something simple and elegant!

Will

G0OPL

------=_NextPart_000_006A_01C51B45.23ACD5B0-- --===============96740080605586032== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============96740080605586032==-- From krw at efn.org Fri Feb 25 23:40:29 2005 From: krw at efn.org (Karl Walter) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:40:29 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============81777339847857267== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01C51B4D.C36D9E60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C51B4D.C36D9E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just use an LED. Checks vss, magnetic crank trigger, basically any = magnetic pickup. no polarity problems, the output is a sign wave. I = doubt you'll find a cheaper solution. --Karl David Cooley wrote: a small speaker with a cap in series and you should be able to hear = the signal -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org = [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:31 AM To: efi list Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings Hey all, I tried to check the pulses comming on that tach signal = but to my dispise the fluke multi meter I have does not read HZ... any = cheap and easy ideas??? jim ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C51B4D.C36D9E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I just use an LED. Checks vss, = magnetic crank=20 trigger, basically any magnetic pickup. no polarity problems, the = output=20 is a sign wave. I doubt you'll find a cheaper = solution.

--Karl

David Cooley <n5xmt at bellsouth.net>=20 wrote:

a small speaker with a cap in series and = you should be=20 able to hear the signal

From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org=20 [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim=20 Butterfield
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:31=20 AM
To: efi list
Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse=20 readings

Hey all, I tried to check the pulses comming on that tach = signal but=20 to my dispise the fluke multi meter I have does not read HZ... any = cheap=20 and easy ideas???

jim

------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C51B4D.C36D9E60-- --===============81777339847857267== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============81777339847857267==-- From mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com Sat Feb 26 06:26:32 2005 From: mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com (Marcello A. Belloli) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 03:26:32 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Choice of labscope Message-ID: Hello Everyone, AFter my fun with the eprom switcher project, I've decide to get a new DSO. I'm currently looking at a Tektronix 2232 DSO plus. I have no idea what the plus is for. But it is a 100mhz 2 channel DSO with RS232. I asked the seller what the smallest time division was and he said .05 Micro Seconds. My current unit has 5 micro seconds as its lowest setting. And apparently cannot display the signals I was looking at its lowest time division. Does everyone think this will be enough? I'm looking for any comments. I'm not sure how far I need to go to get it done. My next project is using a pic18f542 at 40mhz. Would this scope be able to look at the signals created by this without problem? I've been thinking I should get a logic analyzer instead. If it bases its change in logic state the same as my hardware, I should be able to see problems. And they usually have many more I/O inputs than a DSO. I could look at all 18 pins on an 18pin pic at the same time. My big question is am I really going to need to do this, or I'm just looking at signals once in a while when something isn't going right? What does everyone think? - Thanks, Marcello _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From WSCowell at aol.com Sat Feb 26 08:04:46 2005 From: WSCowell at aol.com (WSCowell at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 05:04:46 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings Message-ID: --===============76776216697593291== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1109404764" -------------------------------1109404764 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry Karl, this is nonsense and is misleading to somebody who is genuinely asking for guidance. Connecting a LED to Vss without a current limiting resistor will simply destroy it. An LED will NOT indicate the frequency of pulses even approximately, if over about 20 Hz it would simply look permanently "on". I wouldn't expect it to show the pulses from a reluctor, which incidentally are NOT a SINE wave. You seriously expect a LED to be visible in daylight? Jim's question deals with frequency. I'm sorry, and I hate posting a message like this but your answer won't cut it. Will G0OPL -------------------------------1109404764 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry Karl, this is nonsense and is misleading to somebody who is genui= nely=20 asking for guidance. Connecting a LED to Vss without a current limitin= g=20 resistor will simply destroy it. An LED will NOT indicate the frequenc= y of=20 pulses even approximately, if over about 20 Hz it would simply look permanen= tly=20 "on". I wouldn't expect it to show the pulses from a reluctor, which=20 incidentally are NOT a SINE wave. You seriously expect a LED to be vis= ible=20 in daylight? Jim's question deals with frequency. I'm sorry, and I hate= =20 posting a message like this but your answer won't cut it.

Will

G0OPL

-------------------------------1109404764-- --===============76776216697593291== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============76776216697593291==-- From WSCowell at aol.com Sat Feb 26 08:16:08 2005 From: WSCowell at aol.com (WSCowell at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 05:16:08 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Choice of labscope Message-ID: --===============51324239049673803== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1109405510" -------------------------------1109405510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Marcello, The problem with a storage scope is finding ways of triggering the thing so it shows what you are looking for. The proposed new scope should be up to the job, as the minimum timebase sweep duration gives 50 nsec per division it seems. This should show events down to 10 nsec, bearing in mind the bandwidth limitation. Getting it to look for the event you wish to capture **at the time it is happening** is the real challenge! When I was working as an engineer, we would sometimes write code routines to do a certain step repetitively to catch those events, but this is a much more practical proposition if you have an E(E)PROM emulator, a very desirable tool. Much cheaper than a logic analyser too. Good hunting! Will Cowell G0OPL -------------------------------1109405510 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Marcello,

The problem with a storage scope is finding ways of triggering the thin= g so=20 it shows what you are looking for. The proposed new scope should be up= to=20 the job, as the minimum timebase sweep duration gives 50 nsec per division i= t=20 seems. This should show events down to 10 nsec, bearing in mind the=20 bandwidth limitation.

Getting it to look for the event you wish to capture **at the time it i= s=20 happening** is the real challenge! When I was working as an engineer,=20= we=20 would sometimes write code routines to do a certain step repetitively to cat= ch=20 those events, but this is a much more practical proposition if you have an=20 E(E)PROM emulator, a very desirable tool. Much cheaper than a logic=20 analyser too. Good hunting!

Will Cowell

G0OPL

-------------------------------1109405510-- --===============51324239049673803== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============51324239049673803==-- From mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com Sat Feb 26 16:02:58 2005 From: mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com (Marcello A. Belloli) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:02:58 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Choice of labscope Message-ID: Hello Will, > Hi Marcello, > > The problem with a storage scope is finding ways of triggering the thing > so > it shows what you are looking for. The proposed new scope should be up to > the job, as the minimum timebase sweep duration gives 50 nsec per division > it > seems. This should show events down to 10 nsec, bearing in mind the > bandwidth > limitation. Now when you are talking bandwidth, you are talking the 100mhz, or are you talking the samples per second? I've trying to understand this difference. Now if I'm reading this right....the samples per second is the rate at which you can get a freeze frame (digital storage)? Like the signal you see for but a moment, and want to try and capture because looking in real time it goes by too fast. But a repetitive signal you can just basically look at 100mhz, because there is no need to capture it. It is always in front of you. So the bigger the storage buffer, and the faster the storage rate will give you the better chance of glich capture. > > Getting it to look for the event you wish to capture **at the time it is > happening** is the real challenge! When I was working as an engineer, we > would > sometimes write code routines to do a certain step repetitively to catch > those events, but this is a much more practical proposition if you have an > E(E)PROM emulator, a very desirable tool. Much cheaper than a logic > analyser too. Now when you say e(e)prom emulator you are talking about a device that would plug in place of an eeprom emulating it. Now I have a romulator, which does that exact thing. The funny thing was it wouldn't work on my last project. I could set it to emulate a 2716, which is the exact chip I used in the end. But it wouldn't work in the circuit. Probably because I was modifying the input to emulate another chip. It worked as a 27c256 no problem in the past though. I'm guessing what you are talking about must do more than what I have. Now if I could get a logic analyzer at a good price would that be better. I see an Hp DSO / logic analyzer for sale on ebay that struck my interest. It has both in one unit. Just not sure yet if I can capture the data to my pc. The tektronix ones I've been looking at work with software I already own for doing captures. Thanks, Marcello _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From clshore at yahoo.com Sat Feb 26 18:18:46 2005 From: clshore at yahoo.com (Carter Shore) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:18:46 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Please trim your replys Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 06:01:11 Jim Butterfield wrote: > Ive got to respectfully request we leave some of the > prev messiage attached... this post from Will means > nothing to me, Im sure there is some valid meaning, > but without some original post its hard to remember > what the last person said... There are no formal rules of Netiquette, but most folks post enough quoted content from the previous post to 'stitch the thread'. If someone is interested in detail, they can refer to all the previous postings. Yes, this takes a bit more time than just clicking the reply button, but it's a small price to be considerate. Ever been in conversation where the other person repeats everything that was just said each time they spoke? It's not just the wasted bandwidth of your computer connection, it's the wasted bandwidth of your eyes and brain having to wade through all the visual bull****. Clarity in presentation is important. If you want people to read and consider what you say, make it clear and to the point. Carter __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From krw at efn.org Sat Feb 26 19:09:13 2005 From: krw at efn.org (Karl Walter) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:09:13 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings: correction. Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============85240930008609395== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C51BF3.12753040" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C51BF3.12753040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, The LED needs an 800 ohm balast resistor for 5 volt pulses. I am sorry for not providing accurate information in my previous post. = I just figured it was a nice opportunity to share a "quick trick" I = use.=20 W.S. Cowell seems to think my post was "misleading" and "nonsense" = Does everybody else on the list feel this way too? I usually give the = E-mails a quick read, and I have been hesitant to post something that's = not a question. I just threw out an idea, brainstorm style, and now I = feel that I should not post unless I have a guarenteed, tested, and 100% = accurate answer. =20 To All, should I be afraid to post replys to this list? Do you want = to read my sometimes not fully thought out ideas, or should I just shut = up? Threads don't stay around long usually, So if a quick answer that = might be wrong isn't OK, I probably won't be able to get a reply off = before the origional question is long gone. Jim wrote: "Hey all, I tried to check the pulses comming on that tach signal but = to my dispise the fluke multi meter I have does not read HZ... any cheap = and easy ideas???" He was looking for "ideas" and yes, he seems to be asking for a hz = reading. A loud speaker won't give a quantative frequency reading either, = although I may have missed a previous post by Jim, explaining exactly = what he was doing. The loudspeaker, as suggested by David is a great Idea. If a tiny = plastic enclosed Piezo tweeter will work, it would be tough enough to = coexist with all the wrenches in my tool box without being crushed. I = would be a great addition to my collection of quick and easy diagnostic = tools.=20 Here's the details on using an LED as a quick diagnostic tool: Some user's results may be different due to differences in LED's. I = can provide specs on the LEDs I have used, but it's easier to just try = some. An led on a 5 volt pulse will require a dropping resistor. Use 800 = ohms. 2 LED's with dropping resistors, one forward biased, one reverse, = in parallel, avoids a mistake in polarity. For the ignition refrence = pulse on a GM DIS system (1990 3.1l v6) at Idle the LED will seem almost = steady, but look carefully, you can see the flicker. =20 Super bright LED's work better. An 800 ohm resistor works well, it = shows nicely on 5 volts, and won't blow the LED if connected to 12v for = a few seconds or more. Just a simple LED, no resistor, does work to check a vehicle speed = sensor, or a crank position sensor, as long as it is the 2 wire reluctor = style, not a Hall effect unit. I have done this on GM crank sensors, = and gm and ford VSS's, and it works surprisingly well. I wouldn't suggest that this is a substitute for a lab scope or other = quantitative instrument, but having some LED's in your tool kit on the = road, or at the wrecking yard can be really handy. A vss can be checked = by just spinning it by hand, a crank sensor, by waving a = (steel)screwdriver by it. On the road, if your car quits, you can = determine if the 5 volt Ignition reference pulse is present while = cranking, but the loud speaker would be better since it wouldn't require = two people, one to crank and one to watch.=20 --Karl ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C51BF3.12753040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

The LED needs an 800 ohm balast = resistor for 5=20 volt pulses.

I am sorry for not providing accurate = information=20 in my previous post. I just figured it was a nice opportunity to = share a=20 "quick trick" I use.

W.S. Cowell seems to think my post = was=20 "misleading" and "nonsense" Does everybody else on the list feel = this=20 way too? I usually give the E-mails a quick read, and I have been = hesitant to=20 post something that's not a question. I just threw out an idea,=20 brainstorm style, and now I feel that I should not post unless I have = a=20 guarenteed, tested, and 100% accurate answer.

To All, should I be afraid to post = replys to this=20 list? Do you want to read my sometimes not fully thought = out=20 ideas, or should I just shut up? Threads don't stay around long = usually,=20 So if a quick answer that might be wrong isn't OK, I probably won't be = able to=20 get a reply off before the origional question is long = gone.

Jim wrote:

"Hey all, I tried to check the pulses comming on that tach signal = but to=20 my dispise the fluke multi meter I have does not read HZ... any cheap = and easy=20 ideas???"

He was looking for "ideas" and yes, he seems to be asking for a = hz=20 reading.

A loud speaker won't give a quantative frequency reading = either,=20 although I may have missed a previous post by Jim, explaining exactly = what he=20 was doing.

The loudspeaker, as suggested by David is a great Idea. If a tiny = plastic=20 enclosed Piezo tweeter will work, it would be tough enough to coexist = with all=20 the wrenches in my tool box without being crushed. I would be a great = addition=20 to my collection of quick and easy diagnostic tools.

Here's the details on using an LED as a quick diagnostic = tool:

Some user's results may be different due to differences in=20 LED's. I can provide specs on the LEDs I have used, but it's = easier to=20 just try some.

An led on a 5 volt pulse will require a dropping resistor. Use = 800=20 ohms. 2 LED's with dropping resistors, one forward biased, one = reverse,=20 in parallel, avoids a mistake in polarity. For the ignition = refrence=20 pulse on a GM DIS system (1990 3.1l v6) at Idle the LED will seem = almost=20 steady, but look carefully, you can see the flicker.

Super bright LED's work better. An 800 ohm resistor works = well, it=20 shows nicely on 5 volts, and won't blow the LED if connected to 12v = for a few=20 seconds or more.

Just a simple LED, no resistor, does work to check a vehicle = speed=20 sensor, or a crank position sensor, as long as it is the 2 wire = reluctor=20 style, not a Hall effect unit. I have done this on GM crank = sensors, and=20 gm and ford VSS's, and it works surprisingly well.

I wouldn't suggest that this is a substitute for a lab scope or = other=20 quantitative instrument, but having some LED's in your tool kit on the = road,=20 or at the wrecking yard can be really handy. A vss can be = checked by=20 just spinning it by hand, a crank sensor, by waving a = (steel)screwdriver by=20 it. On the road, if your car quits, you can determine if the 5 = volt=20 Ignition reference pulse is present while cranking, but the loud = speaker would=20 be better since it wouldn't require two people, one to crank and one = to watch.=20

--Karl

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C51BF3.12753040-- --===============85240930008609395== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============85240930008609395==-- From clshore at yahoo.com Sat Feb 26 20:49:29 2005 From: clshore at yahoo.com (Carter Shore) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:49:29 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Question on Knock Sensors Message-ID: Using the same sensor as both the driver and receiver will give an unrealistic result. The knock sensors are resonant piezo elements, which means that when used as drivers, the output sound level will also peak at the resonant frequency, even though the excitation voltage is maintained at 1V pp. So of course all of the sensors will appear to have similar frequency response. It would be more accurate to use a broadband element like a hi-fi speaker as the excitation element. The sensors under test could be rigidly attached to the speaker frame, or perhaps even just suspended directly in front of the speaker, driven through an amp. Carter > .... I have profiled the > sensors by getting a 1/4 > NPT pipe coupling and screwing one sensor in one end > and another sensor in > the other end. I set up with 2 DR562 sensors. > I applied a sine wave > from a HP 3324A to one sensor and looked at the > output of the other sensor > with a Nicolet 440 scope. with 1 VPP amplitude I > sweep the frequencies from > 1Khz to 50 Khz The highest amplitude was always at 6 > Khz. Of the 14 sensors I tested they all responded > the same. I concluded that the sensors > are not all that different and could be > interchanged.I then tested 9 > external det modules from AASS,HKD,HKR,BLN,ANBZ ect. > The output is 10 volt > until between 4 Khz and 12 Khz the output would go > low . Again 6 Khz was the sweet spot. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Sun Feb 27 05:02:05 2005 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 02:02:05 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Choice of labscope Message-ID: =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org=20 > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Marcello A. Belloli > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 10:00 AM > To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Choice of labscope >=20 > Now when you are talking bandwidth, you are talking the=20 > 100mhz, or > are you talking the samples per second? I've trying to understand > this difference. Now if I'm reading this right....the samples per > second is the rate at which you can get a freeze frame (digital > storage)? Like the signal you see for but a moment, and want to try > and capture because looking in real time it goes by too fast. But a > repetitive signal you can just basically look at 100mhz, because > there is no need to capture it. It is always in front of you. So > the bigger the storage buffer, and the faster the storage rate will > give you the better chance of glich capture. Bandwidth is the highest frequency that a scope can display, and is directly related to sampling frequency in a DSO. The faster the sample rate the higher the bandwidth. The max bandwidth in a system that samples digitally is 1/2 the sampling frequency. This is called the Nyquist limit. You have to sample more than twice during the period of a waveform in order to be able to reconstruct the waveform. If you sample less than twice per period you will reconstruct an incorrect frequency. This is called aliasing and it will cause a high frequency signal to look like a low frequency signal on your scope display. This is easy to draw but not so easy to explain. Google search for Nyquist and aliasing and you can probably find out all about it. Practically the bandwidth of a DSO is usually about 1/5 the sampling rate, allowing 5 samples per period to better reconstruct the waveform. Now, your scope. Go to www.tek.com and search for 2232. This is a 100 MHz bandwidth scope, with a 100MHz sampling rate. If you read the above carefully then you should be wondering why the bandwidth is more than 50 MHz. That's because sometimes engineers aren't able to prevent marketers from coming very close to lying in sales material. This scope has a 100 MHz bandwidth only on signals that are repetitive. Basically it samples the input over and over and builds up the samples in memory, giving an effective sample rate of 2GHz. This only works on repetitive signals. If you're trying to find a single event at 100 MHz you won't see it with this scope. It's actual bandwidth for non repetitive signals is probably around 20 MHz. With that said this scope is probably a dependable performer and since you will most likely be looking at repetitive signals it's probably suitable for your purposes, including a 40 MHz PIC project. It all comes down to how much you're paying for it. > Now if I could get a logic analyzer at a good price would that be > better. I see an Hp DSO / logic analyzer for sale on ebay that > struck my interest. It has both in one unit. Just not sure yet if I > can capture the data to my pc. The tektronix ones I've been looking > at work with software I already own for doing captures. LA and DSO are different tools for different purposes. I think the combo LA/DSO boxes are terrific. I have one at work and while I rarely cross trigger or otherwise use both functions at the same time, it's just nice to have both functions in one box. If you see one that is in your price range and has the bandwidth (scope) and number of channels (LA) that you need then get it. --steve _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Sun Feb 27 05:28:24 2005 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 02:28:24 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============94136271680721961== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C51C8C.BAE890B1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51C8C.BAE890B1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are some reference docs on the gmecm page under OBD2 info. There's an intel white paper that has good detail about the J1850 part of the spec. A google search of the other SAE spec numbers will probably turn up copies of them. I used to have them but SAE made me take them down. =20 --steve ________________________________ From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:18 AM To: efi list Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading =09 =09 Hello all, Im hunting around on the net looking for good material on OBD II material, Ive found some books at amazon, but anyone know of good websites for free reading??? =20 jim =09 ________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. = =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51C8C.BAE890B1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There are some reference docs on the gmecm page = under OBD2=20 info. There's an intel white paper that has good detail about the = J1850=20 part of the spec. A google search of the other SAE spec numbers = will=20 probably turn up copies of them. I used to have them but SAE made = me take=20 them down.

--steve

From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org=20 [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim=20 Butterfield
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:18 = AM
To:=20 efi list
Subject: [Diy_efi] good = reading

Hello all, Im hunting around on the net looking for good material = on OBD=20 II material, Ive found some books at amazon, but anyone know of good = websites=20 for free reading???

jim

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn=20 more. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51C8C.BAE890B1-- --===============94136271680721961== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============94136271680721961==-- From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 14:55:49 2005 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:55:49 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading Message-ID: --===============55896668833907515== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1079541945-1109515969=:62997" --0-1079541945-1109515969=:62997 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Intel white paper????? not sure what your refering to and whats the J1850??? jim Steve Ravet wrote: There are some reference docs on the gmecm page under OBD2 info. There's an intel white paper that has good detail about the J1850 part of the spec. A google search of the other SAE spec numbers will probably turn up copies of them. I used to have them but SAE made me take them down. --steve --------------------------------- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:18 AM To: efi list Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading Hello all, Im hunting around on the net looking for good material on OBD II material, Ive found some books at amazon, but anyone know of good websites for free reading??? jim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1079541945-1109515969=:62997 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Intel white paper????? not sure what your refering to and whats the J1850???

jim

Steve Ravet <Steve.Ravet at arm.com> wrote:

There are some reference docs on the gmecm page under OBD2 info. There's an intel white paper that has good detail about the J1850 part of the spec. A google search of the other SAE spec numbers will probably turn up copies of them. I used to have them but SAE made me take them down.

--steve

From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:18 AM
To: efi list
Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading

Hello all, Im hunting around on the net looking for good material on OBD II material, Ive found some books at amazon, but anyone know of good websites for free reading???

jim

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1079541945-1109515969=:62997-- --===============55896668833907515== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============55896668833907515==-- From n5xmt at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 27 15:53:57 2005 From: n5xmt at bellsouth.net (David Cooley) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:53:57 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============018945998657152519== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C51CBA.3D235E30" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C51CBA.3D235E30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J1850 is the OBD-II spec as laid out by the SAE _____ From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 9:53 AM To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] good reading Intel white paper????? not sure what your refering to and whats the J1850??? jim Steve Ravet wrote: There are some reference docs on the gmecm page under OBD2 info. There's an intel white paper that has good detail about the J1850 part of the spec. A google search of the other SAE spec numbers will probably turn up copies of them. I used to have them but SAE made me take them down. --steve _____ From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:18 AM To: efi list Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading Hello all, Im hunting around on the net looking for good material on OBD II material, Ive found some books at amazon, but anyone know of good websites for free reading??? jim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C51CBA.3D235E30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

J1850 is the OBD-II spec as laid out by the=20 SAE

From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org=20 [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim=20 Butterfield
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 9:53 = AM
To: A=20 list for Do-It-Yourself EFI
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] good=20 reading

Intel white paper????? not sure what your refering to and whats = the=20 J1850???

jim

Steve Ravet <Steve.Ravet at arm.com>=20 wrote:

There are some reference docs on the gmecm = page under=20 OBD2 info. There's an intel white paper that has good detail = about the=20 J1850 part of the spec. A google search of the other SAE spec = numbers=20 will probably turn up copies of them. I used to have them but = SAE made=20 me take them down.

--steve

From: = diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org=20 [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim=20 Butterfield
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:18=20 AM
To: efi list
Subject: [Diy_efi] good=20 reading

Hello all, Im hunting around on the net looking for good = material on=20 OBD II material, Ive found some books at amazon, but anyone know = of good=20 websites for free reading???

jim

__________________________________________________
Do You=20 Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection = around=20
http://mail.yahoo.com

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C51CBA.3D235E30-- --===============018945998657152519== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============018945998657152519==-- From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 16:28:31 2005 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 13:28:31 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] good reading Message-ID: --===============4293135443812508== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-680287782-1109521536=:50727" --0-680287782-1109521536=:50727 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii OHHHHHH thx jim David Cooley wrote: J1850 is the OBD-II spec as laid out by the SAE --------------------------------- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 9:53 AM To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] good reading Intel white paper????? not sure what your refering to and whats the J1850??? jim Steve Ravet wrote: There are some reference docs on the gmecm page under OBD2 info. There's an intel white paper that has good detail about the J1850 part of the spec. A google search of the other SAE spec numbers will probably turn up copies of them. I used to have them but SAE made me take them down. --steve --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --0-680287782-1109521536=:50727 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

OHHHHHH

thx

jim

David Cooley <n5xmt at bellsouth.net> wrote:

J1850 is the OBD-II spec as laid out by the SAE

From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 9:53 AM
To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] good reading

Intel white paper????? not sure what your refering to and whats the J1850???

jim

Steve Ravet <Steve.Ravet at arm.com> wrote:

There are some reference docs on the gmecm page under OBD2 info. There's an intel white paper that has good detail about the J1850 part of the spec. A google search of the other SAE spec numbers will probably turn up copies of them. I used to have them but SAE made me take them down.

--steve

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --0-680287782-1109521536=:50727-- --===============4293135443812508== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi --===============4293135443812508==-- From diy-efi at t-n-e.com Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 From: diy-efi at t-n-e.com (Phil Hunter) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:10:33 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] pulse readings: correction. Message-ID: > ... Do you want to read my sometimes not fully thought out ideas...? Nothing personal, but my preference is quality over quantity. Plenty of folks on these lists can give you vague, misleading, one sentence answers, it's the "quality" posts, even if they are brief, that catch my attention. If you use the archives at all, I'll think to see where I'm coming from. The over-all quality just isn't here like it used to be. > ...Threads don't stay around long usually,... Not much I have to say is so important it can't wait a day or two. And threads last longer in digest mode and a lot longer in the archives. Another option to consider is sending a reply directly to the sender, sometimes that's more appropriate. > ... 2 LED's with dropping resistors, one forward biased, one reverse, > in parallel, avoids a mistake in polarity. You can get Bi-colour LEDs made this way (2 leads, vs. the 3 lead type), they tend to be weak in intensity, but now there are Red-Green-Blue super bright LEDs available. I'd suggest the diffused ("milky") type for most of our applications. Or use a bridge rectifier, my first thought for the opto-isolator in the Pulse Width project rather than the special one Steve chose. Your suggestion of using an LED is much safer than a speaker for testing logic circuits, few are designed to drive such low impedances as speakers. Logic Probes are probably an even better thunk. > ...the LED will seem almost steady, but look carefully, you can see the > flicker. One trick to try is to scan your eyes across the LED, sorta like looking straight ahead and then turning your head quickly. The persistance of your vision can let you see the flashes and might even give you a relative indication of duty cycle. Or it may only make you dizzy . rgds, phil (digest) _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bill.washington at nec.com.au Mon Feb 28 00:19:18 2005 From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:19:18 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: diy_efi Digest, Vol 17, Issue 45 Message-ID: Marcello, A DSO is a fundamentally different beast from an analog CRO. A DSO works by taking periodic instantaneous snapshots (Samples) of the signal and extrapolating between these samples. The critical specification is the maximum number of samples per second - the more the better (but also the more expensive). The theoretical maximum frequency it can display is half the maximum sample rate, therefore a DSO which has a max sample rate of 100Ms/s can display up to a 50 MHz PERIODIC signal. When the signal is not periodic the timing of the captured waveform edges can be shifted by up to the maximum gap between samples, in the example above this would be (1/100M) s = 10ns. Note also that the sample rate changes with the timebase setting selected - the DSO does not have unlimited memory, and can therefore store only a limited maximum number of samples - when the timebase gets slowed down the sample rate has to be reduced so that it does not run out of memory - therfore also resolution reduces. One further feature which you may find useful is "Glitch Capture" - this feature (if it is included on the specific DSO) may be turned ON or OFF manually - When it is (installed and) turned ON, the DSO has the capability of taking one or more additional samples when it detects a glitch occur within a pre-determined (by the user) window (amplitude,width). These Glitches would otherwise often be missed by the periodic sampling nature of the DSO. One other thing to be VERY wary of with a DSO - they can easily fool you with a seemingly correct looking wavefprm which has been sampled at too slow a timebase - IE too slow a sampling rate - when it gets one sample every 2, 3, 4, or more cycles of a periodic or aperiodic but pulsing waveform - In this case you may see an 'accurate-looking' representation, but it is not a true picture of the waveform you are trying to view - essential information has been lost and cannot be recovered! My recomendation would therefore be to go for a Sample/second rate 2 or 3 times higher than you need (ie 4 to 6 times greater than the fastest signal you want to capture) with a Glitch capture facility ----- Hip Pocket permitting, of course!!! Best Regards Bill >Message: 5 >Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 22:22:27 -0800 (PST) >From: "Marcello A. Belloli" >Subject: [Diy_efi] Choice of labscope >To: "diy efi" >Message-ID: > <1744.24.7.39.231.1109398947.squirrel at www.speedymotorsports.com> >Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > >Hello Everyone, > AFter my fun with the eprom switcher project, I've decide to get a >new DSO. I'm currently looking at a Tektronix 2232 DSO plus. I have >no idea what the plus is for. But it is a 100mhz 2 channel DSO with >RS232. I asked the seller what the smallest time division was and he >said .05 Micro Seconds. My current unit has 5 micro seconds as its >lowest setting. And apparently cannot display the signals I was >looking at its lowest time division. Does everyone think this will >be enough? I'm looking for any comments. I'm not sure how far I >need to go to get it done. > My next project is using a pic18f542 at 40mhz. Would this scope be >able to look at the signals created by this without problem? > I've been thinking I should get a logic analyzer instead. If it >bases its change in logic state the same as my hardware, I should be >able to see problems. And they usually have many more I/O inputs >than a DSO. I could look at all 18 pins on an 18pin pic at the same >time. My big question is am I really going to need to do this, or >I'm just looking at signals once in a while when something isn't >going right? > What does everyone think? > >- Thanks, Marcello > > > > > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From bill.washington at nec.com.au Mon Feb 28 00:38:52 2005 From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:38:52 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: diy_efi Digest, Vol 17, Issue 46 Message-ID: Karl, The problem is not so much with the idea, or the LED, as with the Human Eye - consider how a TV or cinema film works - 50 or 60Hz frame refresh rate of slightly varying still shots gives apparent movement - the reason - the human eye has a persistence of about 1/50 of a second - slightly longer actually - so if the LED is switching on and off slower than that we will see a flicker, if it is faster than that all we will see is a perceived change in the brightness of the LED, so with this understanding and these constraints your Idea is useable. So don't be afraid of being flamed - we all get it, but floating new/different ideas whether or not they have immediate application has merit - even if they may not work as proposed, they do serve to make people think outside the square, and that is always useful. Regards Bill >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:05:25 -0800 >From: "Karl Walter" >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] pulse readings: correction. >To: "A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI" >Message-ID: <001d01c51c36$21943560$010aa8c0 at waltechii> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Hello, > > The LED needs an 800 ohm balast resistor for 5 volt pulses. > > I am sorry for not providing accurate information in my previous post. I just figured it was a nice opportunity to share a "quick trick" I use. > > W.S. Cowell seems to think my post was "misleading" and "nonsense" Does everybody else on the list feel this way too? I usually give the E-mails a quick read, and I have been hesitant to post something that's not a question. I just threw out an idea, brainstorm style, and now I feel that I should not post unless I have a guarenteed, tested, and 100% accurate answer. > > To All, should I be afraid to post replys to this list? Do you want to read my sometimes not fully thought out ideas, or should I just shut up? Threads don't stay around long usually, So if a quick answer that might be wrong isn't OK, I probably won't be able to get a reply off before the origional question is long gone. > > > > > _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From rwhughe at oplink.net Mon Feb 28 01:17:21 2005 From: rwhughe at oplink.net (Robert W Hughes) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:17:21 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Choice of labscope Message-ID: Check out the Tektronix TDS1000 series. Although rated for an analog bandwidth of 60Mhz it samples at 1Ghz. I have an older version, the TDS210 and it works very well with usable response up to around 100Mhz. If you get the comm module you can upload screens from the scope and the FFT function lets you use it as a spectrum analyser, or just see the frequency response of signals such as knock sensors. It can also measure frquency, time and voltage of displayed signals. At about $1000 it is a bargain, performance wise. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W or perhaps 30:55.265N, 95:20.590W Houston, Texas "The city with too much Oxygen" rwhughe at oplink.net _______________________________________________ diy_efi mailing list diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi From james.d.ulmer at usps.gov Mon Feb 28 03:02:59 2005 From: james.d.ulmer at usps.gov (Ulmer, James D - Denver, CO) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:02:59 -0300 Subject: [Diy_efi] Please trim your replys Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============057202438356435126== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C51D41.71E0EF6E" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51D41.71E0EF6E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For the poor sucker struggling along with a single phone line, there are no $5 options. Last figures I saw has over 40% of the US still on dial-up. Hopefully, the majority of the people who hang out on a list like this are the more technologically advanced but dial-up is still with us. Personally, I've got 1.5M DSL at home and a couple of T-1s at work. Until I moved 2 years ago, DSL was not available (too far from CO) and, since I use Direct TV, cable wasn't available to me. Direct's system hadn't taken off so I kept a dial-up nailed up continuously for several years. =20 Big Jim -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Djfreggens at aol.com Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 6:07 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Please trim your replys In a message dated 2/23/2005 10:54:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, james.d.ulmer at usps.gov writes: How about the poor suckers stuck on dial-up?? =20 Big Jim this is the 21st centruy. pony up the extra $4-6 a month and get with it already.=20 =20 sincerly Sean=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C51D41.71E0EF6E Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

For the poor sucker struggling = along with a=20 single phone line, there are no $5 options. Last figures I saw has over = 40% of=20 the US still on dial-up. Hopefully, the majority of the people who hang = out on a=20 list like this are the more technologically advanced but dial-up is = still with=20 us. Personally, I've got 1.5M DSL at home and a couple of T-1s at work. = Until I=20 moved 2 years ago, DSL was not available (too far from CO) and, since I = use=20 Direct TV, cable wasn't available to me. Direct's system hadn't taken = off so I=20 kept a dial-up nailed up continuously for several years.

Big Jim

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On = Behalf=20 Of Djfreggens at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 = 6:07=20 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] = Please=20 trim your replys

In a message dated 2/23/2005 10:54:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 james.d.ulmer at usps.gov writes:

How about = the poor=20 suckers stuck on dial-up??

Big=20 Jim