[Diy_efi] Need help from the experts - Not an EFI problem !
ralph granchelli
rgranchelli at yahoo.com
Sun Feb 20 19:51:13 GMT 2005
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This morning armed with everyones inputs I went to the garage and fired up the pantera. The first thing I did was to examine the spray pattern of the primary injectors when running normally and when in what I used to call the lean state.
There was definately a differnce. It also sounded to me like the timing was off when this happened
Of course checking the timing on the Pantera is no small task.So I pulled the seats, interior and firewall cover. When starting and running normally the timing is about 12 BTDC. However when not running right, the timing is about 80BTDC
So I have an ignition triggering problem and not an EFI problem after all
I'll post the results when I figure it out
TNX & Rgds
RG
AZ
"Marcello A. Belloli" <mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com> wrote:
RG,
I just got a chance to read this thread. I agree that looking at the
wavepattern of the electrical side of the injector will not tell you
a lot about the mechanical end of the injector. But I know what
would. What about using a map sensor on the fuel pressure regulator.
You see the pressure pulses from each injector. Now this isn't
perfect either, but when one or a couple of injectors are acting up
you can easily see them. We've been using this meathod for a while
at the shop I work. The injector wavepattern can show you the
opening and closing of the valve in a perfect world, but not usually
in the car. I took a one day class where they showed us how to see
the opening, closing of an injector with a vertronix scope. But they
were showing us with a dry inector, and the pattern was easy to see.
When we went to go do the same thing on the car, it just didn't work
that easy. We use a fuel tank pressure sensor...I'll find the part
number tomorrow when I go to work, with a simply 7805 regulator.
This is a map type sensor with a 0-4psi range...not the same as the
one used for measuring engine vaccum. Just an idea.
Marcello
> Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions
>
> I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday
>
> I'll let you guys know what I see
>
> TNX & Rgds,
>
> RG
> AZ
>
> Bret Levandowski wrote:
> My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould
> see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today.
> Too much brain fry. Ski
>
> WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference
> whether you look at voltage or current waveform, because they simply tell
> you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What
> you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the
> injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray
> pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of
> stuff.
>
> What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will
> tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve
> itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through
> the winding.
>
> Regards
>
> Will
>
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<DIV>This morning armed with everyones inputs I went to the garage and fired up the pantera. The first thing I did was to examine the spray pattern of the primary injectors when running normally and when in what I used to call the lean state.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There was definately a differnce. It also sounded to me like the timing was off when this happened</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Of course checking the timing on the Pantera is no small task.So I pulled the seats, interior and firewall cover. When starting and running normally the timing is about 12 BTDC. However when not running right, the timing is about 80BTDC</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So I have an ignition triggering problem and not an EFI problem after all</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'll post the results when I figure it out</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>TNX & Rgds</DIV>
<DIV>RG</DIV>
<DIV>AZ<BR><BR><B><I>"Marcello A. Belloli" <mbelloli at speedymotorsports.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">RG,<BR>I just got a chance to read this thread. I agree that looking at the<BR>wavepattern of the electrical side of the injector will not tell you<BR>a lot about the mechanical end of the injector. But I know what<BR>would. What about using a map sensor on the fuel pressure regulator.<BR>You see the pressure pulses from each injector. Now this isn't<BR>perfect either, but when one or a couple of injectors are acting up<BR>you can easily see them. We've been using this meathod for a while<BR>at the shop I work. The injector wavepattern can show you the<BR>opening and closing of the valve in a perfect world, but not usually<BR>in the car. I took a one day class where they showed us how to see<BR>the opening, closing of an injector with a vertronix scope. But they<BR>were showing us with a dry inector, and the pattern was easy to see. <BR>When we went to go do the same thing on the car,
it just didn't work<BR>that easy. We use a fuel tank pressure sensor...I'll find the part<BR>number tomorrow when I go to work, with a simply 7805 regulator. <BR>This is a map type sensor with a 0-4psi range...not the same as the<BR>one used for measuring engine vaccum. Just an idea.<BR><BR>Marcello<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>> Thanks Will, Tobjorn & Brett for your comments and suggestions<BR>><BR>> I plan to take a look at it again tomorrow or Monday<BR>><BR>> I'll let you guys know what I see<BR>><BR>> TNX & Rgds,<BR>><BR>> RG<BR>> AZ<BR>><BR>> Bret Levandowski <SKISHOP69 at YAHOO.COM>wrote:<BR>> My Bad!! I got that backwards. I had to go back and remember. You sould<BR>> see a slight DROP in the current. Wow, shouldn't have gone to work today.<BR>> Too much brain fry. Ski<BR>><BR>> WSCowell at aol.com wrote: Well, if I'm right, it won't make a difference<BR>> whether you look at voltage or
current waveform, because they simply tell<BR>> you about the electrical performance of the winding in the injector. What<BR>> you really want to know is a purely mechanical thing, i.e. "Is the<BR>> injector lifting off its seat cleanly when pulsed? What is its spray<BR>> pattern like? Does it deliver fuel at the correct rate?" That sort of<BR>> stuff.<BR>><BR>> What I'm leading up to is that I don't think electrical measurements will<BR>> tell you anything about the important bit inside the injector, the valve<BR>> itself, that lets the fuel through when opened by current flowing through<BR>> the winding.<BR>><BR>> Regards<BR>><BR>> Will<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> diy_efi mailing list<BR>> diy_efi at diy-efi.org<BR>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ---------------------------------<BR>> Do you Yahoo!?<BR>> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib
Jab's 'Second<BR>> Term'_______________________________________________<BR>> diy_efi mailing list<BR>> diy_efi at diy-efi.org<BR>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi<BR>><BR>><BR>> ---------------------------------<BR>> Do you Yahoo!?<BR>> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn<BR>> more._______________________________________________<BR>> diy_efi mailing list<BR>> diy_efi at diy-efi.org<BR>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi<BR>><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>diy_efi mailing list<BR>diy_efi at diy-efi.org<BR>http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><p>
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