Automotive Circuit Protection - Part 1

Tue Jun 23 23:48:31 GMT 1998

get ready to do in house pf correction....... either way its going to cost

----------
From: 	Mike Rolica[SMTP:mrolica at meridian-mag.com]
Sent: 	June 23, 2000 12:39 PM
To: 	'gmecm at diy-efi.org'
Subject: 	RE: Automotive Circuit Protection - Part 1

???? what is this for????  Get the newer gm alternator.....use a pwm
regulator, upt to 400hz... :-)
I HEAR ANYMORE POWER QUAL STUFF, I'M GONNA PUKE!! 
(just got back from power quality meeting in Toronto... Ontario hydro is
being de regulated...somewhat like the guys in us whent thru.... Ya brown
outs stuff like that... dirty power...
right now ontario hydro syplies with a leading pf but that cost money...
never had brown out here in 22 years..

any way
 the EFI stuff.

With new alt, truck runs great...charges at 15.5 v unlike 13.9 with old
one...
Also with scope on alt.. power is lots cleaner.. no more interference
through stereo like old one :-)

But BLm down to 110 on way to work???? Were at 127-130 for last couple of
months..
Beginning to think ecm is quite picky on it's juice....
Any thoughts?
(remember, I was running a pre efi alt.....for carbed vehicle. Now running
proper one..0)

Mike Rolica
Plant A,
Magnesium Products Division
Strathroy

(519)-245-4040  Ext. 265

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	garwillis at msn.com [SMTP:garwillis at msn.com]
	Sent:	Friday, June 23, 2000 3:53 PM
	To:	diy_efi at diy-efi.org; gmecm at diy-efi.org
	Subject:	Automotive Circuit Protection - Part 1

	Obligatory pardons for the dupes to those on both lists.

	I intended getting back to this alot sooner, but got distracted.
Wanted
	to also address a number of errors/misconceptions found in the two
	snippettes below.

	One person wrote:

	>1. Alternator wire breaks from alternator to battery and there is
now no
	>load on alternator.  Normal situation here is alternator fries
diodes
	>due to overvoltage.  Does High power transorb protect alternator
until
	>aircraft or boat or car reaches home port?

	>2. Battery wire not properly connected to battery and battery
becomes
	>disconnected.  Alternator and entire electrical system experience
high
	>voltage.  Would not the fuel pump provide enough of a load to keep
the
	>alternator voltage low enough or safety?  Would Transorb be any
better?

	Another responded thusly:

	>The alternator's control circuitry should protect against such an
	>over-voltage situation anyway by manipulating the excitation
	>current.  There's typically a Zener diode to sense over-voltage.
	>Such a circuit can react quickly enough to protect the rest of the
	>vehicle's electrics.

	Then, same respondent further states:

	>When the connection between battery and alternator fails, the
	>alternator's unsmoothed ripple voltage is seen by electrical
	>consumers. Note that most alternators supply at least 3 phases (6
	>diodes) and the resulting ripple is only a couple of volts; enough
	>to confuse ECUs, but hardly enough to cause damage to electrical
	>consumers designed for automotive use.
	>
	>If you're looking at transsorbs to smooth the ripple, you should
	>probably be looking elsewhere for something more useful.

	Instead of treating what are mostly misconceptions above, I'll just
run
	down both cons & pros all together.

	(1) "Load Dump" is a POSITIVE over-voltage transient out of the ALT,
so
	it's in the same DIRECTION as normal ALT output (rounds about 70V),
and
	therefore *doesn't* usually provoke a failure in the diode bridge.
	Diodes normally fry from thermal cycle failures these days.

	(2) Contrary to the second person's glib dismissal of LoadDump as
merely
	minutae ripple on the output of the bridge (which is complete
nonsense),
	it IS a very REAL threat that SAE and ISO have sped'd out
extensively.
	Such dismissal shows that the person isn't in a position to comment
in
	what often sounds like an authoritative tone, when they don't even
know
	WHAT Load Dump is, let alone that it even exists! Always better to
ask
	questions and learn something, than wax authoritative but clueless.

	What Load Dump IS, is a deregulation-type failure in the ALT, where
a
	large enough change in load causes the ALT's regulator to be unable
to
	*quickly enough* cut back the ALT's field coil current (that's the
	rotating part of the ALT, BTW). It's not a design flaw or failure of
the
	electronics (usually), but rather an intrisic weakness in the
	method/means of regulation of ALT output; namely, controlling the
ALT
	output thru regulation of it's FIELD winding current. Basically,
it's
	like an inertia effect. You're controlling the ALT output via it's
	smaller field current, but big inductors like the field winding
can't be
	turned off on a dime, they have electrical "inertia", because they
have
	stored magnetic energy in their windings. So if you have the ALT
putting
	out full tilt boogie amps and high rpms to boot (that's the spec'd
worst
	case scenario, BTW; max ALT output at max ALT rpm), and you try to
	suddenly drop from 100A load to 10A say, that's a "load dump"
(you're
	dumping load from the ALT, not adding but *removing*) that will
likely
	cause the ALTs output to rise well above it's normal regulated
setpoint,
	as the ALT's regulator tries to shut down the field current to pull
back
	the output current.

	You might think, well hell's bells, isn't that going to be happening
any
	time you turn off some major load? Ahh yup, BUT first off, you don't
	normally have transients as big as above, PLUS the BATT is a
tremendous
	capacitor of juiceful proportions, and normally happily absorbs an
such
	transients. Whilst it's charging, the BATT also presents a pretty
decent
	load of it's own to the ALT. Take both of those away at once by
	inadvertant disconnection of the battery and some other major loads,
and
	presto: "Load Dump".

	This is enough of a major issue that the main Chip houses that
design
	the regulators, all have various "load dump" protection schemes they
use
	to promote their regulator chips overNabove their competitors.
There's
	even a debate as to whether you should try to suppress such
transients
	centrally at the possible source(s), or use a "distributed" scheme
where
	you sprinkle protection around at all the loads. Part of the reason
for
	this debate is that there are other transients/dangers in need of a
	defense, so the issue is over how to most economically provide ALL
the
	protection that's needed, of which Load Dump dangers are just one
piece.
	[We'll get to those other dangers in Part Deux].

	(3) The way we got into this was recommending transorbs as part of
the
	protection against these transients. But from the first poster
above,
	it's clear more needs to be said about the overall "plan". Transorbs
are
	NOT used to regulate power buses if the primary regulator goes outta
	spec (like the ALT case above), they are there to protect the load
	circuitry just long enough to call in for heavier reinforcements
like
	fuses or breakers if needed. Plus, they're there to absorb fast
	transients that are too SHORT to ever actually trip a fuse/breaker.
EMP
	from a nearby electrical storm, or other kinds of EMI/RFI from other
	electrical devices onboard, for example. So no, transorbs don't
	temporarily "fix the problem" until you can get back to home port.

	(4) Yes, there IS a design issue for "mission critical" systems, if
you
	don't want everything shutting down because of some transient/fault.
	Enter in the "distributed vrs central" protection debate. Normally,
	serious Load Dump is caused by some major screwup, either accidental
	disconnect during repair procedures, or even wiring failure. But
yeah,
	if you're on the last lap of a roadrace with a huge purse at stake,
you
	don't want to shut down the fuel pumps if the ALT momentarily blips
up
	it's voltage to something that wouldn't harm the pumps, but MIGHT
kill
	the sensitive datalogging and telemetry equipment. Hopefully your
ECU
	designer's made IT adequately burly.

	Just a make-believe what-if mind you. But HERE, you might design the
	protection so if the transient is short, the transorb just swallows
it,
	and IF it does end up really long, yeah, maybe your transorb
protection
	ON THAT CIRCUIT or AT THAT LOAD pops the fuse/breaker just for those
	devices, but you go on to finish the race. If OTOH, you put all the
	protection at the ALT, then you've got to take a worst-case
more/most
	conservative approach, and that probly means you need to shut the
whole
	electrical system off when even a modest dump occurs. This might not
be
	best, if you're on that last lap, in the water offshore, or in the
air.
	So YMMV. Ain't "engineering" fun?

	If you don't think these are real-world problems, consider the
	following: One major automotive EE house has a ALT regulator design
that
	CROWBARS the ALT output in the event of a load dump. If you're
	unfamiliar with the term, it's an electrical analog to putting a
	"crowbar" across the ALT's output terminals. IOWs a nice big fat
short.
	And the nature of crowbar circuits is that usually they STAY shorted
as
	long as any current continues to flow once they're tripped. That's a
	REAL design that's offered to the automotive OEMs. And it would mean
	that in the case of a Load Dump transient, the ENTIRE electrical
system
	would most definitely and robustly be shut down.

	Food for thot if your intention is to keep running and win. This
will
	come up again as the mini-series unfolds. :)

	Gar

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