TBI, TPI, Radical Engines, (Todd)
EFISYSTEMS at aol.com
EFISYSTEMS at aol.com
Tue Oct 26 02:44:59 GMT 1999
Hi,
And I bet you're still not done,,,,,,,,we all give countless hours of
research and learning and contemplating and we'll never be done.......but the
closer you get the better it feels(both seat of the pants and
otherwise)....It takes some money and a lot of time......and once in a while
you get some gratification doing something you learned earlier and helping
someone else achieve their goal.........
-Carl Summers
In a message dated 10/25/99 7:10:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
frederic at xephic.dynip.com writes:
<< Subj: TBI, TPI, Radical Engines, (Todd)
Date: 10/25/99 7:10:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: frederic at xephic.dynip.com (Frederic Breitwieser)
Sender: owner-gmecm at esl.eng.ohio-state.edu
Reply-to: gmecm at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
To: gmecm at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
Todd and others interested in long rambling messages :)
Well, you said "Money is the issue here", which I'd take to mean "not to
expensive". It all depends on what you consider expensive, and do you
factor in your time to make it work.
Before I go through all this, I will say that its CHEAPER and FASTER to
skip EFI and run your engine (at least as we discussed it) with a
turbo'd predator carb, or a suitable well-adjusted Holley, etc. Out of
the box you produce power, its easy(er) to fabricate parts, and a
screwdriver can adjust things to make it run right.
If you are dead set on EFI, you might consider the Holley or Edelbrock
TBI system upon your own manifold, because mechanically its easier to
attach to your twin-turbo mopar stroker engine. Trust me on that one
:) Almost plug and play, and the aftermarket EFI stuff is adjustable
with kludgy software that gives you a basic map to start the engine
with. From there you can tweek until your fingertips are sore. If you
insist on going the TPI GM ECM fangle on your twin turbo mopar stroker,
consider that a junkyard EFI system might run you about 300-350 bucks by
the time you include research, gaskets, parts, wiring changes,
documentation, dyno test time, gas, travel, etc. TBI or not. How much
is your time worth, and will you absolutely succeed? True, Bruce and
the Cone Shaped Hat Committee have done tremendous research and
documented tons of stuff, TONS! But still, its their work, you can't
read their minds, and are ya gonna get it right the first time? With
twin-turbos like we've been talking offline? On a Mopar stroker
engine? Maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of variables here. Its a
lot more difficult than it seems, so I found out. While I didn't expect
it to be a "snap", it wasn't that far from "this sucks and I wanna kick
the wall 200 times" either!
The main advantage of the Holley 4D/4DI and other EFI systems of any
flavour, is the likelihood of it working (more or less) out of the box
is singificantly higher than with a junkyard system, unless its a
straight swap - meaning Chevy TBI from a 350cid to a carb'd 350cid
engine, tossing the carb of course. The more intricate you make your
conversion, the more time, more dollars, and more screaming it will take
to get it going. You're doing what we did, twin turbo EFI mopar stroker
"B" block, so its not really a straight swap :) No my friend, not at
all :) I've outlined below more or less what it cost me. There were
many hours spent headscratching as well as calling suppliers and chasing
parts and details, which I did not include below. Also, a lot of
incidentals listed below I lumped together, like "sandblast intake" also
means "sandblast throttle bodies, intake, bungs, brackets, etc". Didn't
see the need to make a 5000 line post when in fact a 4000 line post
would do ::smile::
Anyhoo...
For our SyTy ECM (7749) to Mopar twin-turbo, we spent an enormous amount
of time on the project, didn't get it running right, and still blew it
up. Take II coming soon with the 400cid mopar "B", non stroked, non
turbo'd to start. Hours are manhours, not necessarily my own. "Expert"
friends (at least compared to me) were very much involved. Costs
indicate something was purchased, either the item itself, or maybe
gasket goo, brackets, bolts, etc. All the blockwork and machining was
done at the shop, by my friends, who have a clue and did me a HUGE
favor. Expect machining costs if your engine needs it and you don't
have access to friends with a lot of expensive engine machining toys
sitting around. I know a ton of stuff is missing, as usual, half my
notes are here and half my notes are floating around the body shop. If
you work full time, consider that you may or may not have oh, about 15
hours a week to mess around with this? That would be about 15-16 weeks
from start to finish, and if you had the luck we had, it won't run, but
blow up instead ::grin:: Hopefully for you, you won't have access to a
free defective dyno with moronic operator (me!).
Totals EFI 85 hours $ 380
Totals Non-EFI 154 hours $2015
TOTALS ALL 239 hours $2395
<--- non-interested parties of details press delete here --->
Step 1. - Research and Part Collection
-----------------------------------------------------
Research 383/400 stroker 25 hours $ 0
Obtain 383 engine 7 hours $ 350
Obtain Streetmaster 383 Intake 2 hours $ 25
Determine ECM Choices 5 hours $ 0
Research Wiring Harness Issue 11 hours $ 0
Pull 1227749 out of 87 olds 1 hour $ 0
Pull Wiring Harness from same 3 hours $ 0
Pull GM Sensors, two throttles 2 hours $ 0
Buy Harness & ECM 0 hours $ 75
Buy Sensors/Throttles 0 hours $ 50
Pull Ford Injectors (2 tbirds) 1 hours $ 0
Buy Injectors 0 hours $ 60
-----------------------------------------------------
TOTALS STEP 1 57 hours $ 560
Step 2. - EFI Configuration
-----------------------------------------------------
Rewire wiring harness for syty 20 hours $ 0
Stick in Ford Inj Connectors 2 hours $ 0
Buy Aluminum Rod for Inj Bungs 1 hours $ 25
Buy www.durafix.com 0 hours $ 35
Mill Intake for Inj Bungs 2 hours $ 0
Test fit inj bungs, repeat above 1 hours $ 0
Measure, make, test fuel rails 4 hours $ 0
Milling machine bit 0 hours $ 15
Braze inj bungs, fuel rails 4 hours $ 0
Sandblast intake w/bungs 1 hours $ 20
Paint aluminum intake 1 hours $ 15
-----------------------------------------------------
TOTALS STEP 2 36 hours $ 110
Step 3. - Engine Assembly
-----------------------------------------------------
Disassemble Engine 3 hours $ 0
All Block Machine Work 11 hours $ 0
Port Heads 10 hours $ 0
Two dremel tips 0 hours $ 10
Turn Down 440 crank 4 hours $ 0
Buy 440 rods (used) 9 hours $ 120
Wiseco Pistons (measure/buy) 5 hours $ 640
New Oil Pump, etc 1 hours $ 135
RV Cam 0 hours $ 80
New Bearings, etc 2 hours $ 80
Install Cam, assemble engine 12 hours $ 0
Gasket Set 0 hours $ 65
-----------------------------------------------------
TOTALS STEP 3 48 hours $1130
Step 4 - Turbocharging
-----------------------------------------------------
Pull Two TO3 turbos 3 hours $ 150
Fabricate Stainless Headers 22 hours $ 120
Fabricate Intake Plenum 5 hours $ 35
Pull Volvo Intercooler 1 hours $ 40
Intercooler into Plenum 3 hours $ 0
Igloo cooler, bilge pump, hoses 3 hours $ 0
Rebuild Turbos 11 hours $ 120
-----------------------------------------------------
TOTALS STEP 4 48 hours $ 465
Step 5. - Final Stages, Testing
-----------------------------------------------------
Assemble Intake to Engine 1 hours $ 0
Drive to Dyno location 2 hours $ 10
Mount Engine on Dyno 1 hours $ 0
Fill Dyno Fuel Tank 0 hours $ 45
Test Dyno Operations 1 hours $ 0
Install headers/turbos/hoses 2 hours $ 0
Attach wiring harness & sensors 5 hours $ 50
Test 1 (no start) 1 hours $ 0
Test 2 (no start) 1 hours $ 0
Test 3 (sputter) 1 hours $ 0
Play with Sy/Ty Code 3 hours $ 0
Test 4 (worse sputter) 1 hours $ 0
Replace Dyno Throttle cbl 1 hours $ 0
Test 5 (start, runs rough) 1 hours $ 0
Install Wieland tunnel Ram 1 hours $ 0
Install two Predator carbs 1 hours $ 0
Fabricate "Y" throttle cbl 1 hours $ 0
Fabricate new Plenum 4 hours $ 25
Install, test new plenum 1 hours $ 0
Test 6 1 hours $ 0
Run motor 1900 RPM 2 hours $ 0
Replace weiland/carbs w/efi 3 hours $ 0
Test 7 (runs rough) 1 hours $ 0
Play with Sy/Ty Code 3 hours $ 0
Test 8 (runs rough) 1 hours $ 0
Play with Sy/Ty Code 3 hours $ 0
Test 9 (runs rough) 1 hours $ 0
Play with Sy/Ty Code 3 hours $ 0
Install Wieland tunnel Ram 1 hours $ 0
Install two Predator carbs 1 hours $ 0
FULL WOT TEST 1 hours $ 0
-----------------------------------------------------
TOTALS STEP 5 50 hours $ 130
Totals EFI 85 hours $ 380
Totals Non-EFI 154 hours $2015
TOTALS ALL 239 hours $2395
--
Frederic Breitwieser
Xephic Technology
769 Sylvan Ave #9
Bridgeport CT 06606
Tele: (203) 372-2707
Fax: (603) 372-1147
Web: http://xephic.dynip.com/
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