From william.lucke at highspeedlink.net  Thu Jun  1 12:15:21 2006
From: william.lucke at highspeedlink.net (William Lucke)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 13:15:21 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Gmecm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 1
Message-ID: <447F20A9.401@highspeedlink.net>

I guess you mean that it makes 450/530 with the current intake manifold. 
It won't make that with a stock TPI.

Do you have a specific reason for wanting TPI? Are you converting from a 
carb? If I had an engine like that, I'd put a Holley Stealth Ram on it 
instead of TPI.



Will


> From: "Travis Eighinger" <teighinger at zoominternet.net>
> Subject: [Gmecm] Fw: TPI on a 412sbc
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Travis Eighinger 
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:25 PM
> Subject: TPI on a 412sbc
> 
> 
> I want to put TPI on a 412 I built. It has ~450hp and 530ft.-lb. The engine will never see more than 6000 rpms. I wanted to know if anybody has a starting point for ecu program or any suggestions. Thanks


From teighinger at zoominternet.net  Thu Jun  1 13:07:36 2006
From: teighinger at zoominternet.net (Travis Eighinger)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:07:36 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Gmecm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 1
References: <447F20A9.401@highspeedlink.net>
Message-ID: <012901c685a6$432c4d40$91ba9018@TravisHome>

I use it off road and I need fuel injection. I am just looking for the
cheapest route


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Lucke" <william.lucke at highspeedlink.net>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 1:15 PM
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Gmecm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 1


> I guess you mean that it makes 450/530 with the current intake manifold.
> It won't make that with a stock TPI.
>
> Do you have a specific reason for wanting TPI? Are you converting from a
> carb? If I had an engine like that, I'd put a Holley Stealth Ram on it
> instead of TPI.
>
>
>
> Will
>
>
> > From: "Travis Eighinger" <teighinger at zoominternet.net>
> > Subject: [Gmecm] Fw: TPI on a 412sbc
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: Travis Eighinger
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:25 PM
> > Subject: TPI on a 412sbc
> >
> >
> > I want to put TPI on a 412 I built. It has ~450hp and 530ft.-lb. The
engine will never see more than 6000 rpms. I wanted to know if anybody has a
starting point for ecu program or any suggestions. Thanks
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
>
>




From efi at dyakron.com  Thu Jun  1 17:14:32 2006
From: efi at dyakron.com (Mike V)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:14:32 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Gmecm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <012901c685a6$432c4d40$91ba9018@TravisHome>
References: <447F20A9.401@highspeedlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060601181340.02cc16f0@dyakron.com>

You may be able to find a Holley 950 commader TBI setup.
It is a 4bbl TBI deal.
MV
At 02:07 PM 6/1/2006 -0400, you wrote:

>I use it off road and I need fuel injection. I am just looking for the
>cheapest route
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "William Lucke" <william.lucke at highspeedlink.net>
>To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 1:15 PM
>Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Gmecm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 1
>
>
> > I guess you mean that it makes 450/530 with the current intake manifold.
> > It won't make that with a stock TPI.
> >
> > Do you have a specific reason for wanting TPI? Are you converting from a
> > carb? If I had an engine like that, I'd put a Holley Stealth Ram on it
> > instead of TPI.
> >
> >
> >
> > Will



From krawczuk at dodo.com.au  Thu Jun  1 20:36:09 2006
From: krawczuk at dodo.com.au (mark krawczuk)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:06:09 +0930
Subject: [Gmecm] 4l60 lockup  kit  ??
Message-ID: <000801c685e4$ecb12d70$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>

hi, any  body know where i  can buy the tcc lockup kit that contains the vacuum switch for a 4l60   trans from ?
thanks,
mark k

From ne14roxcj at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 22:49:45 2006
From: ne14roxcj at gmail.com (Beau Blankenship)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 22:49:45 -0500
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Gmecm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060601181340.02cc16f0@dyakron.com>
Message-ID: <447fb563.4e15431b.3a3d.798c@mx.gmail.com>

Even cheaper might be a TBI from a 454. I used the Holley Pro-jection TB
with a 7747 ECM. A few guys here swapped out the Holley injector pod for a
GM piece. Either way, you get 2" bores and if you got the GM unit from the
big-block, tuning might be fairly simple. I can say that the big-bore
throttle body seemed to breathe a little better at high RPMs. I swapped that
for a TPI. I gained a little drivability (low-end), but it doesn't seem to
have the high-rev power that the TBI did. Note: Stay away from Holley
injectors if you run them with a GM ECM. There are also a number of 4-bbl
TBI units out in the aftermarket besides the Holley. I have to agree with
the other guys, I don't think you will come close to those HP and TQ numbers
with a stock TPI setup. My 355 is done making power by 4300-4500. It may be
the cam, but I tend to think it is the small runners. What kind of cam are
you using to make that kind of power and do you think it will be compatible
with EFI? Oh, you said you were thinking about the '165. That is MAF, right?
It should handle a little more cam than my speed density setup. That's just
my $0.02

BTW, what components make up a 412SBC? Is that a 400 overbored?

Beau

-----Original Message-----
From: gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf
Of Mike V
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:15 PM
To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Gmecm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 1

You may be able to find a Holley 950 commader TBI setup.
It is a 4bbl TBI deal.
MV
At 02:07 PM 6/1/2006 -0400, you wrote:

>I use it off road and I need fuel injection. I am just looking for the
>cheapest route
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "William Lucke" <william.lucke at highspeedlink.net>
>To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 1:15 PM
>Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Gmecm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 1
>
>
> > I guess you mean that it makes 450/530 with the current intake manifold.
> > It won't make that with a stock TPI.
> >
> > Do you have a specific reason for wanting TPI? Are you converting from a
> > carb? If I had an engine like that, I'd put a Holley Stealth Ram on it
> > instead of TPI.
> >
> >
> >
> > Will

_______________________________________________
Gmecm mailing list
Gmecm at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm



From romans at starstream.net  Thu Jun  1 22:53:35 2006
From: romans at starstream.net (Mark Romans)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:53:35 -0700
Subject: [Gmecm] Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any tricks to using a
	big cap HEI on a 747 ecm?
References: <000801c685e4$ecb12d70$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>
Message-ID: <004401c685f8$1fca19c0$8c01a8c0@fci9bo2ay5h5y8>

Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any tricks to using a big cap HEI on a 
747 ecm?

I have a friend who put a 747 ecm in his 80 Buick and is running a big cap 
HEI and a 747 ecm.
The Car runs great with the EST Bypass disconnected, except it doesn't have 
any power due to low timing
advance in the module, when he hooks up the EST bypass the timing jumps all 
over the place.

I don't think it's in the chip because I smoothed out the spark map where 
the idle is, and even when the timing
should be staying constant it's bouncing all over the place.

The order of the wires between the small cap and big cap HEI are reversed 
and I have checked everything to death!
Is there anything I am missing?

Thanks!

Mark 



From ne14roxcj at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 23:00:03 2006
From: ne14roxcj at gmail.com (Beau Blankenship)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:00:03 -0500
Subject: [Gmecm] 4l60 lockup  kit  ??
In-Reply-To: <000801c685e4$ecb12d70$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>
Message-ID: <447fb7cc.60dabb3a.7170.79cb@mx.gmail.com>

I would think that would be pretty easy to piece together from a salvage
yard. Just take the control wire from the trans and hook it to a vacuum
switch from the early-mid '80's trucks with a 700R4. I guess you would need
to know how the valve body switches are set up to know what kind of signal
it is looking for. I didn't see any "kits" in my quick look through Summit's
site. Only speedo controlled kits.

Beau

-----Original Message-----
From: gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf
Of mark krawczuk
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 8:36 PM
To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Gmecm] 4l60 lockup kit ??

hi, any  body know where i  can buy the tcc lockup kit that contains the
vacuum switch for a 4l60   trans from ?
thanks,
mark k
_______________________________________________
Gmecm mailing list
Gmecm at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm



From galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jun  2 02:47:23 2006
From: galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net (Jason M.)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 03:47:23 -0400
Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Gmecm] 4l60 lockup  kit  ??
References: <447fb7cc.60dabb3a.7170.79cb@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c68618$cd31ae00$4101a8c0@BILLYBOB>

I looked for those switches new last time someone asked about this, don't 
remember what I eventually found it on but I remember it being $60-$70.

Did a quick internet search for just a plain vacuum switch:

first one is on the 4th page of the pdf.  One of those set to (depends on 
application) 8 or 9 inHg would probably work just perfect.
http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/hss/hobbscorp/P3_6.pdf

here is just another website with other switches.
http://www.whitmancontrols.com/WhitmanControls/Default.aspx?tabid=43&mid=468&mastercategoryid=33&subcategoryid=192

Imagine there is other stuff out there but a simple vacuum switch, brake 
switch and a relay could net you a fairly decent set up.

Other thing you might look into is an accelerator pedal switch.  My 82 
caprice has one for it's original 350diesel/2004r set up.  I have yet to 
test it to find out if it still works or hook it to my TCC wiring.  For 
quite a while now I've just had a manual on off switch and a brake switch. 
Usually I just turn it on after the engine hits 130-140.   Has worked well 
for a couple years.  For this car normal around town driving is fine with 
the TCC engaged all the time, Hydraulically it can't lock in 1st gear, it 
locks up after 20mph in 2nd (not sure if it's supposed to work like this as 
this transmission isn't in the best condition).

The drivetrain is a 1973 olds 350 4bbl, 1984 700r4 from a trans am, mid 60's 
ford replacement holley carburetor (450cfm, got it off a 65 galaxie 352fe, 
went a jet size smaller on the primary), drishaft is stock, shortened 6 
inches (3'' for the transmission swap, 3'' for the rear end swap) rear is a 
1986 caprice 8.5'' 10bolt with 2.56:1 limited slip.

Also chopped the top 4'' and turned it into a 2 door "el caprice" so it's 
lighter then stock and a little more aerodynamic.  Got 21mpg running 80 on 
the highway.  I usually see 26mpg when the bed is full, working on getting a 
tonneu (sp) cover made so I don't have to haul a load of firewood just to 
get good highway mileage.

Ok, just realized I'm way to tired and typing stuff that doesn't matter.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beau Blankenship" <ne14roxcj at gmail.com>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 12:00 AM
Subject: [Bulk] RE: [Gmecm] 4l60 lockup kit ??


>I would think that would be pretty easy to piece together from a salvage
> yard. Just take the control wire from the trans and hook it to a vacuum
> switch from the early-mid '80's trucks with a 700R4. I guess you would 
> need
> to know how the valve body switches are set up to know what kind of signal
> it is looking for. I didn't see any "kits" in my quick look through 
> Summit's
> site. Only speedo controlled kits.
>
> Beau
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of mark krawczuk
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 8:36 PM
> To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Gmecm] 4l60 lockup kit ??
>
> hi, any  body know where i  can buy the tcc lockup kit that contains the
> vacuum switch for a 4l60   trans from ?
> thanks,
> mark k
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
> 




From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Fri Jun  2 08:28:51 2006
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 08:28:51 -0500
Subject: [Gmecm] Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any tricks to using
	abig cap HEI on a 747 ecm?
Message-ID: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C743414061178301006A07@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org 
> [mailto:gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mark Romans
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 10:54 PM
> To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Gmecm] Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any 
> tricks to using abig cap HEI on a 747 ecm?
> 
> Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any tricks to using a 
> big cap HEI on a
> 747 ecm?
> 
> I have a friend who put a 747 ecm in his 80 Buick and is 
> running a big cap HEI and a 747 ecm.
> The Car runs great with the EST Bypass disconnected, except 
> it doesn't have any power due to low timing advance in the 
> module, when he hooks up the EST bypass the timing jumps all 
> over the place.

I've seen that at idle also on my TBI blazer.  I think it's "normal".
Ignoring the timing light, how does it run?

--steve


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.



From romans at starstream.net  Fri Jun  2 09:42:27 2006
From: romans at starstream.net (Mark Romans)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:42:27 -0700
Subject: [Gmecm] Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any tricks to
	usingabig cap HEI on a 747 ecm?
References: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C743414061178301006A07@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c68652$c53d7fa0$8c01a8c0@fci9bo2ay5h5y8>

It surges with the est hooked up.
Mark

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Ravet" <Steve.Ravet at arm.com>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:28 AM
Subject: RE: [Gmecm] Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any tricks to 
usingabig cap HEI on a 747 ecm?




> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org
> [mailto:gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mark Romans
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 10:54 PM
> To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Gmecm] Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any
> tricks to using abig cap HEI on a 747 ecm?
>
> Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any tricks to using a
> big cap HEI on a
> 747 ecm?
>
> I have a friend who put a 747 ecm in his 80 Buick and is
> running a big cap HEI and a 747 ecm.
> The Car runs great with the EST Bypass disconnected, except
> it doesn't have any power due to low timing advance in the
> module, when he hooks up the EST bypass the timing jumps all
> over the place.

I've seen that at idle also on my TBI blazer.  I think it's "normal".
Ignoring the timing light, how does it run?

--steve


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended 
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the 
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the 
information in any medium.  Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Gmecm mailing list
Gmecm at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm



From galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jun  2 10:30:44 2006
From: galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net (Jason M.)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:30:44 -0400
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Gmecm] Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any
	tricks tousingabig cap HEI on a 747 ecm?
References: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C743414061178301006A07@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>
	<000c01c68652$c53d7fa0$8c01a8c0@fci9bo2ay5h5y8>
Message-ID: <00ce01c6865a$2cf7be10$4101a8c0@BILLYBOB>

check out your other sensors, I had a similiar problem with my 92 caprice, 
dead spot on the throttle position sensor.  At idle the TPS values 
constantly changed, just off idle they went to zero, then were fine up to 
WOT.  Caused surging in rpm, I didnt' check to see what the timing was doing 
since I just hooked up my scan tool and saw the TPS problem, then verified 
with an Ohm meter.

btw, when running smooth timing on that caprice jumps around a bit, maybe 8 
degrees total.  Really it's more of a sweeping from advance to retarded then 
back.  I'm not sure as to the cause.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Romans" <romans at starstream.net>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 10:42 AM
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Gmecm] Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any tricks 
tousingabig cap HEI on a 747 ecm?


> It surges with the est hooked up.
> Mark
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Ravet" <Steve.Ravet at arm.com>
> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 6:28 AM
> Subject: RE: [Gmecm] Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any tricks to 
> usingabig cap HEI on a 747 ecm?
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org
>> [mailto:gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mark Romans
>> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 10:54 PM
>> To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
>> Subject: [Gmecm] Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any
>> tricks to using abig cap HEI on a 747 ecm?
>>
>> Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are any tricks to using a
>> big cap HEI on a
>> 747 ecm?
>>
>> I have a friend who put a 747 ecm in his 80 Buick and is
>> running a big cap HEI and a 747 ecm.
>> The Car runs great with the EST Bypass disconnected, except
>> it doesn't have any power due to low timing advance in the
>> module, when he hooks up the EST bypass the timing jumps all
>> over the place.
>
> I've seen that at idle also on my TBI blazer.  I think it's "normal".
> Ignoring the timing light, how does it run?
>
> --steve
>
>
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended 
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the 
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the 
> information in any medium.  Thank you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
> 




From andrewsharyn at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  2 13:42:39 2006
From: andrewsharyn at yahoo.com (Andrew Gibson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:42:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Gmecm] Big cap HEI on 7747
Message-ID: <20060602184240.13779.qmail@web60821.mail.yahoo.com>

It sounds like you have hooked up the pickup wires backwards. Been there done that on a Chev 250 6cyl 7748. Runs like garbage when backwards. Runs great with ecm doing fuel only or with the est unhooked. Just swap the green and white wires and see what happens.
 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From romans at starstream.net  Fri Jun  2 19:49:41 2006
From: romans at starstream.net (Mark Romans)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:49:41 -0700
Subject: [Gmecm] Big cap HEI on 7747
References: <20060602184240.13779.qmail@web60821.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c686a7$998f65d0$8c01a8c0@fci9bo2ay5h5y8>

Hi Andrew:   On this application (747) there are 4 wires that go between the 
ecm and the distributor.

Circuit Number    Color           ECM Pin     Dist Pin Small Cap       Big 
Cap
423                     WHT               D4               D 
A
430                     PPL/WHT        B5              C 
B
424                    TAN/BLK         D5              B 
C  (EST BY-PASS SET TIMING)
453                    BLK/RED          B3             A 
D

The stock application uses the small cam dist, this car is fitted with a 
large cap hei that is wired like the shop manual says as noted above.

HELP!!!

Thanks

Mark


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Gibson" <andrewsharyn at yahoo.com>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:42 AM
Subject: [Gmecm] Big cap HEI on 7747


> It sounds like you have hooked up the pickup wires backwards. Been there 
> done that on a Chev 250 6cyl 7748. Runs like garbage when backwards. Runs 
> great with ecm doing fuel only or with the est unhooked. Just swap the 
> green and white wires and see what happens.
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
> 



From dennysweet at charter.net  Sat Jun  3 00:30:58 2006
From: dennysweet at charter.net (Denny)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 22:30:58 -0700
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Gmecm] Gmecm - Does anyone know if there are
	anytricks tousingabig cap HEI on a 747 ecm?
References: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C743414061178301006A07@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com><000c01c68652$c53d7fa0$8c01a8c0@fci9bo2ay5h5y8>
	<00ce01c6865a$2cf7be10$4101a8c0@BILLYBOB>
Message-ID: <001a01c686ce$e555aca0$1c02a8c0@dennyhuyir5nuj>

Kinda makes me wonder if the springs inside the dist. are bad and letting 
the timing go crazy? 


From andrewsharyn at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  3 19:09:31 2006
From: andrewsharyn at yahoo.com (Andrew Gibson)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:09:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
Message-ID: <20060604000932.39791.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com>

I wasn't talking about the 4 wires from the module to the ecm. I was talking about the two wires from the ignition pickup coil inside the distributor to the module. If the wires are switched the timing pickup is coming off the curved section of the waveform instead of the vertical slope in the center. This can offset the timing by as much as 40 degress and will vary greatly by engine rpm. (See the piggyback igintion module discussion I started a couple of months ago.) The wires should be white and green (at least off the pickup coil) I don't remember which is positive and which is negative.
   
  Also since you are obviously having problems and must have extended the pickup coil wires to have a external module: If you need the module more than 1.5" away (The length of  stock pickup coil wires) the spliced in wires need to be twisted for noise reduction. (If you peel the insulation off a piece of network cable you will get the idea)
   
  Good luck!

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From romans at starstream.net  Sat Jun  3 19:37:24 2006
From: romans at starstream.net (Mark Romans)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:37:24 -0700
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
References: <20060604000932.39791.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c6876f$0c9b9400$8c01a8c0@fci9bo2ay5h5y8>

Thanks Andrew, I'll check it!
Mark

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Gibson" <andrewsharyn at yahoo.com>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:09 PM
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747


>I wasn't talking about the 4 wires from the module to the ecm. I was 
>talking about the two wires from the ignition pickup coil inside the 
>distributor to the module. If the wires are switched the timing pickup is 
>coming off the curved section of the waveform instead of the vertical slope 
>in the center. This can offset the timing by as much as 40 degress and will 
>vary greatly by engine rpm. (See the piggyback igintion module discussion I 
>started a couple of months ago.) The wires should be white and green (at 
>least off the pickup coil) I don't remember which is positive and which is 
>negative.
>
>  Also since you are obviously having problems and must have extended the 
> pickup coil wires to have a external module: If you need the module more 
> than 1.5" away (The length of  stock pickup coil wires) the spliced in 
> wires need to be twisted for noise reduction. (If you peel the insulation 
> off a piece of network cable you will get the idea)
>
>  Good luck!
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
> 



From dgilbert78 at juno.com  Sat Jun  3 21:12:09 2006
From: dgilbert78 at juno.com (dgilbert78 at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 22:12:09 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
Message-ID: <20060603.221210.-168319.0.dgilbert78@juno.com>

Hello. Ign module to pick up coil  N=white wire  P=green wire
good luck
Darryl...
On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:37:24 -0700 "Mark Romans" <romans at starstream.net>
writes:
> Thanks Andrew, I'll check it!
> Mark
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Andrew Gibson" <andrewsharyn at yahoo.com>
> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:09 PM
> Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
> 
> 
> >I wasn't talking about the 4 wires from the module to the ecm. I 
> was 
> >talking about the two wires from the ignition pickup coil inside 
> the 
> >distributor to the module. If the wires are switched the timing 
> pickup is 
> >coming off the curved section of the waveform instead of the 
> vertical slope 
> >in the center. This can offset the timing by as much as 40 degress 
> and will 
> >vary greatly by engine rpm. (See the piggyback igintion module 
> discussion I 
> >started a couple of months ago.) The wires should be white and 
> green (at 
> >least off the pickup coil) I don't remember which is positive and 
> which is 
> >negative.
> >
> >  Also since you are obviously having problems and must have 
> extended the 
> > pickup coil wires to have a external module: If you need the 
> module more 
> > than 1.5" away (The length of  stock pickup coil wires) the 
> spliced in 
> > wires need to be twisted for noise reduction. (If you peel the 
> insulation 
> > off a piece of network cable you will get the idea)
> >
> >  Good luck!
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gmecm mailing list
> > Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
> 
> 


From Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk  Sun Jun  4 09:45:12 2006
From: Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Handley)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 15:45:12 +0100
Subject: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol
References: <000601c67fe9$c9efa0b0$6801a8c0@james0uw35t2hd>
Message-ID: <021701c687e5$7cf995f0$020101c0@gandalf>

I've noticed different behaviour on ALDL between ANHT/$8D and Sunbird/$58
code in my '727. The ANHT/$8D seems to behave more 'sensibly/predictably.'
than the Sunbird/$58 code!

I'm currently trying to find a robust algorithm to talk to the Sunbird/$58
code. I have modified ALDLMON (which works but takes longer to lock on than
it does with ANHT/$8D) and played around with some noddy programs of my own
(not w/o some issues, which I'm still trying to get to the bottom of). Has
anybody played with ALDL from Sunbird/$58? The code chucks out $F0 $55 $BB
repeatedly. The Turbo code doc. indicates that the ALDL monitor should
reply, but does not appear to say with what. Anybody know what the correct
response is?

Robin



From b.shaw at comcast.net  Sun Jun  4 10:29:16 2006
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 11:29:16 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol
In-Reply-To: <021701c687e5$7cf995f0$020101c0@gandalf>
Message-ID: <C0A8748C.99B2%b.shaw@comcast.net>

Hi Robin,

The $58 code is very timing sensitive.  It's been a while since I've played
with it so the details are a bit fuzzy,  but as I remember you have to send
a mode change within a couple hundred milliseconds of the 'chatter' packet
to get it to shut up and start taking commands.  Once you change mode it'll
respond OK to your commands until it times out aned returns to 'chatter'
mode.  Do you have the Turbo-P4 doc?  It's spelled out pretty well in there,
look for 'turbo_p4' or something like that on incoming.

Best,

Bill

> From: "Robin Handley" <Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk>
> Reply-To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
> Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 15:45:12 +0100
> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
> Subject: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol
> 
> I've noticed different behaviour on ALDL between ANHT/$8D and Sunbird/$58
> code in my '727. The ANHT/$8D seems to behave more 'sensibly/predictably.'
> than the Sunbird/$58 code!
> 
> I'm currently trying to find a robust algorithm to talk to the Sunbird/$58
> code. I have modified ALDLMON (which works but takes longer to lock on than
> it does with ANHT/$8D) and played around with some noddy programs of my own
> (not w/o some issues, which I'm still trying to get to the bottom of). Has
> anybody played with ALDL from Sunbird/$58? The code chucks out $F0 $55 $BB
> repeatedly. The Turbo code doc. indicates that the ALDL monitor should
> reply, but does not appear to say with what. Anybody know what the correct
> response is?
> 
> Robin
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm



From Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk  Sun Jun  4 11:26:11 2006
From: Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Handley)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 17:26:11 +0100
Subject: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol
References: <C0A8748C.99B2%b.shaw@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <023601c687f3$99b7a570$020101c0@gandalf>

Hey Bill,

I think you're dead right about the timing sensitivity. I'm really surprised
that GM made the $58 code behave differently from the $8D, though. My
current $58 test program waits until it sees the $BB checkum of the chatter
message and immediately after sends a request for Mode 1 data - which the
$58 responds to with data, and the chatter message is inhibited for a few
seconds. It seems that, if the Mode 1 request doesn't come out at just the
right time, it is ignored and the chatter messages just churn out. That
isn't the case with $8D. The weird thing is that, with my test program, the
$58 code gives me the Mode 1 data 3 times consecutively from my program
start and then ignores subsequent requests! If I stop and restart my program
it does the same again. This sounds like a bug in my program, but I tried
the program with ANHT/$8D and it worked fine! I know the $58 should work
repeatedly because, once locked on, ALDLMON works. This is really confusing
me ATM! :-)

BTW: Yes, the Turbo P4 doc is the one I was referring to. Following what it
describes, I've been testing the Mode 4 ability to turn the fan on, like I
did for ANHT/$8D, and having problems with that too, using $58! I expected
it to work straight away! :-(

BR,

Robin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Shaw" <b.shaw at comcast.net>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: 04 June 2006 16:29
Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol


> Hi Robin,
>
> The $58 code is very timing sensitive.  It's been a while since I've
played
> with it so the details are a bit fuzzy,  but as I remember you have to
send
> a mode change within a couple hundred milliseconds of the 'chatter' packet
> to get it to shut up and start taking commands.  Once you change mode
it'll
> respond OK to your commands until it times out aned returns to 'chatter'
> mode.  Do you have the Turbo-P4 doc?  It's spelled out pretty well in
there,
> look for 'turbo_p4' or something like that on incoming.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
>
> > From: "Robin Handley" <Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk>
> > Reply-To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
> > Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 15:45:12 +0100
> > To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
> > Subject: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol
> >
> > I've noticed different behaviour on ALDL between ANHT/$8D and
Sunbird/$58
> > code in my '727. The ANHT/$8D seems to behave more
'sensibly/predictably.'
> > than the Sunbird/$58 code!
> >
> > I'm currently trying to find a robust algorithm to talk to the
Sunbird/$58
> > code. I have modified ALDLMON (which works but takes longer to lock on
than
> > it does with ANHT/$8D) and played around with some noddy programs of my
own
> > (not w/o some issues, which I'm still trying to get to the bottom of).
Has
> > anybody played with ALDL from Sunbird/$58? The code chucks out $F0 $55
$BB
> > repeatedly. The Turbo code doc. indicates that the ALDL monitor should
> > reply, but does not appear to say with what. Anybody know what the
correct
> > response is?
> >
> > Robin
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gmecm mailing list
> > Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
>



From mmansur at hotmail.com  Sun Jun  4 13:33:43 2006
From: mmansur at hotmail.com (Mark Mansur)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 11:33:43 -0700
Subject: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol
References: <C0A8748C.99B2%b.shaw@comcast.net>
	<023601c687f3$99b7a570$020101c0@gandalf>
Message-ID: <BAY107-DAV18D965B211490E0726C1A7B4970@phx.gbl>

Hi Robin -

I've had much recent experience with $58 in my work to make TunerPro much 
more robust.

Indeed $58 is rather chatty and timing sensitive. The ECM/BCC send "I'm 
alive" chatter message ($F0 $55 $BB) every 200ms (if I remember correctly). 
In order to get that to stop, you need to listen for the chatter message and 
respond with a MODE 1 dump request in the window between the chatter 
messages. Some docs seem to mention that you can send the message at any 
point between, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I send the mode 1 
request 1ms after I receive the $BB. Note that many other ECMs that function 
like this actually require a mode 8 command to silence chatter (and a Mode 0 
to restart normal comms), but $58 requires a mode 1 dump. If you get a 
successful reply from the mode 1 dump request, the ECM will be silent for as 
long as you continue to send requests to the ECM. If your requests cease for 
5 seconds, the chatter will once again begin.

What you describe does indeed sound like a bug in your test program (are you 
flushing the FIFO as you should be?).

More helpful information from Blacky can be found here:
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/archive/html_gm_archive_num_12/msg08681.html

Hope this helps, and good luck!

Mark


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Handley" <Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol


Hey Bill,

I think you're dead right about the timing sensitivity. I'm really surprised
that GM made the $58 code behave differently from the $8D, though. My
current $58 test program waits until it sees the $BB checkum of the chatter
message and immediately after sends a request for Mode 1 data - which the
$58 responds to with data, and the chatter message is inhibited for a few
seconds. It seems that, if the Mode 1 request doesn't come out at just the
right time, it is ignored and the chatter messages just churn out. That
isn't the case with $8D. The weird thing is that, with my test program, the
$58 code gives me the Mode 1 data 3 times consecutively from my program
start and then ignores subsequent requests! If I stop and restart my program
it does the same again. This sounds like a bug in my program, but I tried
the program with ANHT/$8D and it worked fine! I know the $58 should work
repeatedly because, once locked on, ALDLMON works. This is really confusing
me ATM! :-)

BTW: Yes, the Turbo P4 doc is the one I was referring to. Following what it
describes, I've been testing the Mode 4 ability to turn the fan on, like I
did for ANHT/$8D, and having problems with that too, using $58! I expected
it to work straight away! :-(

BR,

Robin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Shaw" <b.shaw at comcast.net>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: 04 June 2006 16:29
Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol


> Hi Robin,
>
> The $58 code is very timing sensitive.  It's been a while since I've
played
> with it so the details are a bit fuzzy,  but as I remember you have to
send
> a mode change within a couple hundred milliseconds of the 'chatter' packet
> to get it to shut up and start taking commands.  Once you change mode
it'll
> respond OK to your commands until it times out aned returns to 'chatter'
> mode.  Do you have the Turbo-P4 doc?  It's spelled out pretty well in
there,
> look for 'turbo_p4' or something like that on incoming.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill
>
> > From: "Robin Handley" <Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk>
> > Reply-To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
> > Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 15:45:12 +0100
> > To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
> > Subject: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol
> >
> > I've noticed different behaviour on ALDL between ANHT/$8D and
Sunbird/$58
> > code in my '727. The ANHT/$8D seems to behave more
'sensibly/predictably.'
> > than the Sunbird/$58 code!
> >
> > I'm currently trying to find a robust algorithm to talk to the
Sunbird/$58
> > code. I have modified ALDLMON (which works but takes longer to lock on
than
> > it does with ANHT/$8D) and played around with some noddy programs of my
own
> > (not w/o some issues, which I'm still trying to get to the bottom of).
Has
> > anybody played with ALDL from Sunbird/$58? The code chucks out $F0 $55
$BB
> > repeatedly. The Turbo code doc. indicates that the ALDL monitor should
> > reply, but does not appear to say with what. Anybody know what the
correct
> > response is?
> >
> > Robin
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gmecm mailing list
> > Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
>

_______________________________________________
Gmecm mailing list
Gmecm at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm


From mmansur at hotmail.com  Sun Jun  4 16:46:42 2006
From: mmansur at hotmail.com (Mark Mansur)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 14:46:42 -0700
Subject: [Gmecm] 94-95 LT1 ALDL flash information
Message-ID: <BAY107-DAV185D4D3CE5F7F5831C3A81B4970@phx.gbl>

Does anyone out there have leads on information on flashing 94-95 LT1 PCMs 
through ALDL? The info is out there somewhere, as John at TunerCat has it 
and LT1Edit supports it, but so far I've been unable to come up with any 
information on the commands necessary. I'm guessing it's a seed/key type of 
thing, and analyzing the port monitor logs during a read and flash gets 
rather tedious and confusing.

If anyone can point me to ANY information, I'd be most grateful.

Mark 


From romans at starstream.net  Mon Jun  5 23:11:51 2006
From: romans at starstream.net (Mark Romans)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:11:51 -0700
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
References: <20060604000932.39791.qmail@web60817.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002901c6891f$56c76f20$8c01a8c0@fci9bo2ay5h5y8>

Hi DarrylAndrew:

We switched the wires on the module and it seems to have killed
the module.  What's weird is that your description is so exactly what the 
symtoms are.
Keep in mind this is a big cap HEI with an internal module.

The timing varies by huge amounts and greatly by engine rpm.

It idles fine in EST bypass.

Everything has been replaced.  One more thing is that this is an EST HEI 
modified to fit
a 350 Buick running a 747 ecm.

Mark




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Gibson" <andrewsharyn at yahoo.com>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:09 PM
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747


>I wasn't talking about the 4 wires from the module to the ecm. I was 
>talking about the two wires from the ignition pickup coil inside the 
>distributor to the module. If the wires are switched the timing pickup is 
>coming off the curved section of the waveform instead of the vertical slope 
>in the center. This can offset the timing by as much as 40 degress and will 
>vary greatly by engine rpm. (See the piggyback igintion module discussion I 
>started a couple of months ago.) The wires should be white and green (at 
>least off the pickup coil) I don't remember which is positive and which is 
>negative.
>
>  Also since you are obviously having problems and must have extended the 
> pickup coil wires to have a external module: If you need the module more 
> than 1.5" away (The length of  stock pickup coil wires) the spliced in 
> wires need to be twisted for noise reduction. (If you peel the insulation 
> off a piece of network cable you will get the idea)
>
>  Good luck!
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
> 



From dgilbert78 at juno.com  Mon Jun  5 23:38:56 2006
From: dgilbert78 at juno.com (dgilbert78 at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 00:38:56 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
Message-ID: <20060606.003857.-185273.2.dgilbert78@juno.com>

EST timing. I once had a small cap problem that I fought for awhile with
erratic timing. I benched the dist in a vise, connected a few wires and
played with it a lot. used the timing light to watch the dist. Found that
had to much end play in the shaft. Could fire the dist by simply moving
the shaft up and down. Watch out for cracked magnet material, makes extra
poles i think. Shimmed shaft endplay so would not cause spark when shaft
moved vertically . It is truly amazing just how slow you can rotate the
shaft and still produce a spark. I think the internal coil module has 1
less pin, but is basically the same module. In bypass the ECM has no
control, it is all internal. If jumping timing it is the ECM telling the
module to fire when not in bypass. If you have a knock module it could be
detecting knocks and retarding the spark at random. Could be false
knocks. An O scope at times like this works wonders. I have a complete
break out box i made for the 1227747, I can scope any wire or measure any
voltage if i need to work on something that is giving me problems. I had
a small cap and augured the top of the cap out at each tower so I could
watch the spark inside the cap when running, that showed me a lot,
uncovered a timing error on my part. I do not know if you can do that on
the big cap with the coil in top (i assume you have the coil in top) Good
luck
Darryl...
On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:11:51 -0700 "Mark Romans" <romans at starstream.net>
writes:
> Hi DarrylAndrew:
> 
> We switched the wires on the module and it seems to have killed
> the module.  What's weird is that your description is so exactly 
> what the 
> symtoms are.
> Keep in mind this is a big cap HEI with an internal module.
> 
> The timing varies by huge amounts and greatly by engine rpm.
> 
> It idles fine in EST bypass.
> 
> Everything has been replaced.  One more thing is that this is an EST 
> HEI 
> modified to fit
> a 350 Buick running a 747 ecm.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Andrew Gibson" <andrewsharyn at yahoo.com>
> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:09 PM
> Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
> 
> 
> >I wasn't talking about the 4 wires from the module to the ecm. I 
> was 
> >talking about the two wires from the ignition pickup coil inside 
> the 
> >distributor to the module. If the wires are switched the timing 
> pickup is 
> >coming off the curved section of the waveform instead of the 
> vertical slope 
> >in the center. This can offset the timing by as much as 40 degress 
> and will 
> >vary greatly by engine rpm. (See the piggyback igintion module 
> discussion I 
> >started a couple of months ago.) The wires should be white and 
> green (at 
> >least off the pickup coil) I don't remember which is positive and 
> which is 
> >negative.
> >
> >  Also since you are obviously having problems and must have 
> extended the 
> > pickup coil wires to have a external module: If you need the 
> module more 
> > than 1.5" away (The length of  stock pickup coil wires) the 
> spliced in 
> > wires need to be twisted for noise reduction. (If you peel the 
> insulation 
> > off a piece of network cable you will get the idea)
> >
> >  Good luck!
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gmecm mailing list
> > Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
> 
> 


From Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk  Tue Jun  6 03:47:50 2006
From: Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Handley)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:47:50 +0100
Subject: [Gmecm] Clearing fault codes
References: <C0A8748C.99B2%b.shaw@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000601c68945$e5733800$020101c0@gandalf>

I've been trying to get rid of some spurious fault codes and I've realised
that I'm not exactly sure how they latch.

If the fault (e.g. 33 - MAP too HIGH) goes away, after it has been present,
should the flag automatically clear? Or is a total ECM reset required? I've
had no luck with using ALDL commands to clear malfs. Is it required to
remove all power from the ECM? If so, for how long?

Robin



From darrenfreed at shaw.ca  Tue Jun  6 07:57:10 2006
From: darrenfreed at shaw.ca (Darren Freed)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 07:57:10 -0500
Subject: [Gmecm] 94-95 LT1 ALDL flash information
In-Reply-To: <BAY107-DAV185D4D3CE5F7F5831C3A81B4970@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY107-DAV185D4D3CE5F7F5831C3A81B4970@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <44857BA6.9000700@shaw.ca>

I got this all sorted out a while ago, because I was planning to write a 
reflash program for the '4737 and '6397 pcms (v6, flash based, similar 
to the '8051).  The security access isn't too difficult, as I recall, 
and then the code to reflash is downloaded to ram, then executed.  I'll 
dig up what I can find and send it to you.

darren



Mark Mansur wrote:
> Does anyone out there have leads on information on flashing 94-95 LT1 PCMs 
> through ALDL? The info is out there somewhere, as John at TunerCat has it 
> and LT1Edit supports it, but so far I've been unable to come up with any 
> information on the commands necessary. I'm guessing it's a seed/key type of 
> thing, and analyzing the port monitor logs during a read and flash gets 
> rather tedious and confusing.
> 
> If anyone can point me to ANY information, I'd be most grateful.
> 
> Mark 
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
> 


From aoturneriii at tds.net  Tue Jun  6 09:53:15 2006
From: aoturneriii at tds.net (Arby)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:53:15 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] 1227747 Questions
Message-ID: <004f01c68978$f2b3d370$0300a8c0@NATALIE>


What is an ADU error, code 55, on a 747 computer?  Is it possible to damage the computer by firing 454 injectors only using 2 outputs instead of all 4?  Also, is it common to have frequent breaks in the DataStream when trying to datalog the 747 using WINALDL? 

Thank you,

From Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk  Tue Jun  6 12:19:01 2006
From: Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Handley)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:19:01 +0100
Subject: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol
References: <C0A8748C.99B2%b.shaw@comcast.net><023601c687f3$99b7a570$020101c0@gandalf>
	<BAY107-DAV18D965B211490E0726C1A7B4970@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <002601c6898d$8b63ded0$020101c0@gandalf>

Thanks Mark. I've yet to find the bug (been fighting other ECM 'fires') but
I intend to find out what's going on...

Robin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Mansur" <mmansur at hotmail.com>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: 04 June 2006 19:33
Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol


> Hi Robin -
>
> I've had much recent experience with $58 in my work to make TunerPro much
> more robust.
>
> Indeed $58 is rather chatty and timing sensitive. The ECM/BCC send "I'm
> alive" chatter message ($F0 $55 $BB) every 200ms (if I remember
correctly).
> In order to get that to stop, you need to listen for the chatter message
and
> respond with a MODE 1 dump request in the window between the chatter
> messages. Some docs seem to mention that you can send the message at any
> point between, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I send the mode 1
> request 1ms after I receive the $BB. Note that many other ECMs that
function
> like this actually require a mode 8 command to silence chatter (and a Mode
0
> to restart normal comms), but $58 requires a mode 1 dump. If you get a
> successful reply from the mode 1 dump request, the ECM will be silent for
as
> long as you continue to send requests to the ECM. If your requests cease
for
> 5 seconds, the chatter will once again begin.
>
> What you describe does indeed sound like a bug in your test program (are
you
> flushing the FIFO as you should be?).
>
> More helpful information from Blacky can be found here:
> http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/archive/html_gm_archive_num_12/msg08681.html
>
> Hope this helps, and good luck!
>
> Mark
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robin Handley" <Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk>
> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Sunbird/$58 ALDL protocol
>
>
> Hey Bill,
>
> I think you're dead right about the timing sensitivity. I'm really
surprised
> that GM made the $58 code behave differently from the $8D, though. My
> current $58 test program waits until it sees the $BB checkum of the
chatter
> message and immediately after sends a request for Mode 1 data - which the
> $58 responds to with data, and the chatter message is inhibited for a few
> seconds. It seems that, if the Mode 1 request doesn't come out at just the
> right time, it is ignored and the chatter messages just churn out. That
> isn't the case with $8D. The weird thing is that, with my test program,
the
> $58 code gives me the Mode 1 data 3 times consecutively from my program
> start and then ignores subsequent requests! If I stop and restart my
program
> it does the same again. This sounds like a bug in my program, but I tried
> the program with ANHT/$8D and it worked fine! I know the $58 should work
> repeatedly because, once locked on, ALDLMON works. This is really
confusing
> me ATM! :-)
>
> BTW: Yes, the Turbo P4 doc is the one I was referring to. Following what
it
> describes, I've been testing the Mode 4 ability to turn the fan on, like I
> did for ANHT/$8D, and having problems with that too, using $58! I expected
> it to work straight away! :-(
>
> BR,
>
> Robin



From Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk  Tue Jun  6 12:20:41 2006
From: Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Handley)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:20:41 +0100
Subject: [Gmecm] 'Improper shutdown'
References: <C0A8748C.99B2%b.shaw@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <002701c6898d$8b935340$020101c0@gandalf>

Been looking at my Sunbird mode words and wondering: what's an 'improper
shutdown'?

Robin



From rgmecm at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  7 21:04:44 2006
From: rgmecm at yahoo.com (Ryan Hess)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:04:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
In-Reply-To: <002701c6898d$8b935340$020101c0@gandalf>
Message-ID: <20060608020444.29196.qmail@web35912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Question: how have ECM schematics been acquired in the past?  the 
7730/49 on ludis' site, etc?  I'm in contact with an ECM remanufacturer, who 
presumably has a great deal of knowledge locked away somewhere.  The 
question is, how do I coerce it out of them?  I'm specifically looking 
for a schematic of a '2240.


I have to assume this is like the TV repair business, where the mfr 
charges a fee for access to their schematics..

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From perfdyn at cwnet.com  Thu Jun  8 01:12:39 2006
From: perfdyn at cwnet.com (Carl Rumberger)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:12:39 -0700
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
References: <20060606.003857.-185273.2.dgilbert78@juno.com>
Message-ID: <00f401c68ac2$e54c4ff0$4f2afea9@DellNotebook>

Mark/Darryl/Andrew:

See the two added response sections below.

Carl

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dgilbert78 at juno.com>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747


> EST timing. I once had a small cap problem that I fought for awhile with
> erratic timing. I benched the dist in a vise, connected a few wires and
> played with it a lot. used the timing light to watch the dist. Found that
> had to much end play in the shaft. Could fire the dist by simply moving
> the shaft up and down.

Normal rotation strengthens and weakens the magnetic field, generating a
oscillating voltage in the pick-up windings. Anything that changes the field
strength can generate a signal to trigger the module. Moving the shaft up
and down moves the trigger wheel in and out of the pick-up coil,
strengthening and weakening the magnetic field. Thus it would be possible to
trigger the module by moving the shaft up and down.

The real question is does that occur in normal operation in the engine? The
answer is no. Under normal operation the camshaft drives the dist. gear,
distributor, and oil pump at a relatively constant speed. The combination of
the gears, being cut at an angle, and the power required to drive the oil
pump, generates a considerable upwards thrust. This thrust on the
distributor gear, forces it(and the shaft) up against the distributor's
tanged washer and the trust shim. It stays in this up position as long as
there is rotation and load from the oil pump. It is normal for GM
distributors to have .050" - .080" end play with no adverse effect on
timing.

Now if the camshaft rotation oscillates(drive problems or cam walk) or the
oil pump load varies(binding or cavitation) then this could lead to a up and
down movement of the shaft and spark timing problems, but of course the
distributor didn't create the condition. And though you may be able to mask
the symptoms by removing end play, the real fix lays elsewhere.

>Watch out for cracked magnet material, makes extra
> poles i think. Shimmed shaft endplay so would not cause spark when shaft
> moved vertically . It is truly amazing just how slow you can rotate the
> shaft and still produce a spark. I think the internal coil module has 1
> less pin, but is basically the same module. In bypass the ECM has no
> control, it is all internal. If jumping timing it is the ECM telling the
> module to fire when not in bypass. If you have a knock module it could be
> detecting knocks and retarding the spark at random. Could be false
> knocks. An O scope at times like this works wonders. I have a complete
> break out box i made for the 1227747, I can scope any wire or measure any
> voltage if i need to work on something that is giving me problems. I had
> a small cap and augured the top of the cap out at each tower so I could
> watch the spark inside the cap when running, that showed me a lot,
> uncovered a timing error on my part. I do not know if you can do that on
> the big cap with the coil in top (i assume you have the coil in top) Good
> luck
> Darryl...
> On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:11:51 -0700 "Mark Romans" <romans at starstream.net>
> writes:
> > Hi DarrylAndrew:
> >
> > We switched the wires on the module and it seems to have killed
> > the module.  What's weird is that your description is so exactly
> > what the
> > symtoms are.

I appear to have gotten in on this series late and am not exactly sure what
the symptoms are but there seems to be a concern about possible reverse
polarity of the pick-up coil. The effects of reversed polarity are unstable
triggering at low RPM, timing shift of near 40 degrees(see other response
below)(of course this could be offset by changing/correcting the initial
timing), incorrect rotor fazing(this can cause significant problems), and
timing shift with RPM. Reversing the polarity as an experiment shouldn't do
any damage to the module unless the shift in rotor fazing caused such an
increase in required spark voltage that the coil secondary windings arced
through the insulation to the primary windings. Of course the primary
windings are connected to the module and the resulting voltage spikes could
possibly do it damage, though the likelihood is pretty low.

The low tech way to check for correct polarity is to disconnect the timing
connector(put the ignition in bypass) and check the timing with a timing
light. Turn the engine off and align the crank timing marks to where they
were observed with the timing light. Remove the dist. cap and rotor so as to
view the alignment of the pick-up coil inner rotating points and the outer
stationary points. If the point are aligned the polarity is correct. If the
rotating points are near midway between the stationary points the polarity
is reversed.

Is the distributor commercially rebuilt(the housing will be abrasively
blasted). If so, I have seen several rebuilt distributors where the pick-up
coil was incorrectly assembled with the magnet upside down. This reverses
the magnetic polarity which in turn reverses the output polarity.

> > Keep in mind this is a big cap HEI with an internal module.
> >
> > The timing varies by huge amounts and greatly by engine rpm.
> >
> > It idles fine in EST bypass.
> >
> > Everything has been replaced.  One more thing is that this is an EST
> > HEI
> > modified to fit
> > a 350 Buick running a 747 ecm.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Andrew Gibson" <andrewsharyn at yahoo.com>
> > To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:09 PM
> > Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
> >
> >
> > >I wasn't talking about the 4 wires from the module to the ecm. I
> > was
> > >talking about the two wires from the ignition pickup coil inside
> > the
> > >distributor to the module. If the wires are switched the timing
> > pickup is
> > >coming off the curved section of the waveform instead of the
> > vertical slope
> > >in the center. This can offset the timing by as much as 40 degress
> > and will
> > >vary greatly by engine rpm. (See the piggyback igintion module
> > discussion I
> > >started a couple of months ago.) The wires should be white and
> > green (at
> > >least off the pickup coil) I don't remember which is positive and
> > which is
> > >negative.
> > >
> > >  Also since you are obviously having problems and must have
> > extended the
> > > pickup coil wires to have a external module: If you need the
> > module more
> > > than 1.5" away (The length of  stock pickup coil wires) the
> > spliced in
> > > wires need to be twisted for noise reduction. (If you peel the
> > insulation
> > > off a piece of network cable you will get the idea)




From romans at starstream.net  Thu Jun  8 08:51:48 2006
From: romans at starstream.net (Mark Romans)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:51:48 -0700
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
References: <20060606.003857.-185273.2.dgilbert78@juno.com>
	<00f401c68ac2$e54c4ff0$4f2afea9@DellNotebook>
Message-ID: <001b01c68b02$afda42b0$8c01a8c0@fci9bo2ay5h5y8>

Thanks Carl!  This one is really starting to drive everyone crazy!
Mark
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carl Rumberger" <perfdyn at cwnet.com>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747


> Mark/Darryl/Andrew:
>
> See the two added response sections below.
>
> Carl
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <dgilbert78 at juno.com>
> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
>
>
>> EST timing. I once had a small cap problem that I fought for awhile with
>> erratic timing. I benched the dist in a vise, connected a few wires and
>> played with it a lot. used the timing light to watch the dist. Found that
>> had to much end play in the shaft. Could fire the dist by simply moving
>> the shaft up and down.
>
> Normal rotation strengthens and weakens the magnetic field, generating a
> oscillating voltage in the pick-up windings. Anything that changes the 
> field
> strength can generate a signal to trigger the module. Moving the shaft up
> and down moves the trigger wheel in and out of the pick-up coil,
> strengthening and weakening the magnetic field. Thus it would be possible 
> to
> trigger the module by moving the shaft up and down.
>
> The real question is does that occur in normal operation in the engine? 
> The
> answer is no. Under normal operation the camshaft drives the dist. gear,
> distributor, and oil pump at a relatively constant speed. The combination 
> of
> the gears, being cut at an angle, and the power required to drive the oil
> pump, generates a considerable upwards thrust. This thrust on the
> distributor gear, forces it(and the shaft) up against the distributor's
> tanged washer and the trust shim. It stays in this up position as long as
> there is rotation and load from the oil pump. It is normal for GM
> distributors to have .050" - .080" end play with no adverse effect on
> timing.
>
> Now if the camshaft rotation oscillates(drive problems or cam walk) or the
> oil pump load varies(binding or cavitation) then this could lead to a up 
> and
> down movement of the shaft and spark timing problems, but of course the
> distributor didn't create the condition. And though you may be able to 
> mask
> the symptoms by removing end play, the real fix lays elsewhere.
>
>>Watch out for cracked magnet material, makes extra
>> poles i think. Shimmed shaft endplay so would not cause spark when shaft
>> moved vertically . It is truly amazing just how slow you can rotate the
>> shaft and still produce a spark. I think the internal coil module has 1
>> less pin, but is basically the same module. In bypass the ECM has no
>> control, it is all internal. If jumping timing it is the ECM telling the
>> module to fire when not in bypass. If you have a knock module it could be
>> detecting knocks and retarding the spark at random. Could be false
>> knocks. An O scope at times like this works wonders. I have a complete
>> break out box i made for the 1227747, I can scope any wire or measure any
>> voltage if i need to work on something that is giving me problems. I had
>> a small cap and augured the top of the cap out at each tower so I could
>> watch the spark inside the cap when running, that showed me a lot,
>> uncovered a timing error on my part. I do not know if you can do that on
>> the big cap with the coil in top (i assume you have the coil in top) Good
>> luck
>> Darryl...
>> On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:11:51 -0700 "Mark Romans" <romans at starstream.net>
>> writes:
>> > Hi DarrylAndrew:
>> >
>> > We switched the wires on the module and it seems to have killed
>> > the module.  What's weird is that your description is so exactly
>> > what the
>> > symtoms are.
>
> I appear to have gotten in on this series late and am not exactly sure 
> what
> the symptoms are but there seems to be a concern about possible reverse
> polarity of the pick-up coil. The effects of reversed polarity are 
> unstable
> triggering at low RPM, timing shift of near 40 degrees(see other response
> below)(of course this could be offset by changing/correcting the initial
> timing), incorrect rotor fazing(this can cause significant problems), and
> timing shift with RPM. Reversing the polarity as an experiment shouldn't 
> do
> any damage to the module unless the shift in rotor fazing caused such an
> increase in required spark voltage that the coil secondary windings arced
> through the insulation to the primary windings. Of course the primary
> windings are connected to the module and the resulting voltage spikes 
> could
> possibly do it damage, though the likelihood is pretty low.
>
> The low tech way to check for correct polarity is to disconnect the timing
> connector(put the ignition in bypass) and check the timing with a timing
> light. Turn the engine off and align the crank timing marks to where they
> were observed with the timing light. Remove the dist. cap and rotor so as 
> to
> view the alignment of the pick-up coil inner rotating points and the outer
> stationary points. If the point are aligned the polarity is correct. If 
> the
> rotating points are near midway between the stationary points the polarity
> is reversed.
>
> Is the distributor commercially rebuilt(the housing will be abrasively
> blasted). If so, I have seen several rebuilt distributors where the 
> pick-up
> coil was incorrectly assembled with the magnet upside down. This reverses
> the magnetic polarity which in turn reverses the output polarity.
>
>> > Keep in mind this is a big cap HEI with an internal module.
>> >
>> > The timing varies by huge amounts and greatly by engine rpm.
>> >
>> > It idles fine in EST bypass.
>> >
>> > Everything has been replaced.  One more thing is that this is an EST
>> > HEI
>> > modified to fit
>> > a 350 Buick running a 747 ecm.
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Andrew Gibson" <andrewsharyn at yahoo.com>
>> > To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>> > Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:09 PM
>> > Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
>> >
>> >
>> > >I wasn't talking about the 4 wires from the module to the ecm. I
>> > was
>> > >talking about the two wires from the ignition pickup coil inside
>> > the
>> > >distributor to the module. If the wires are switched the timing
>> > pickup is
>> > >coming off the curved section of the waveform instead of the
>> > vertical slope
>> > >in the center. This can offset the timing by as much as 40 degress
>> > and will
>> > >vary greatly by engine rpm. (See the piggyback igintion module
>> > discussion I
>> > >started a couple of months ago.) The wires should be white and
>> > green (at
>> > >least off the pickup coil) I don't remember which is positive and
>> > which is
>> > >negative.
>> > >
>> > >  Also since you are obviously having problems and must have
>> > extended the
>> > > pickup coil wires to have a external module: If you need the
>> > module more
>> > > than 1.5" away (The length of  stock pickup coil wires) the
>> > spliced in
>> > > wires need to be twisted for noise reduction. (If you peel the
>> > insulation
>> > > off a piece of network cable you will get the idea)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
> 



From davesnothereman at netscape.net  Thu Jun  8 14:46:43 2006
From: davesnothereman at netscape.net (davesnothereman at netscape.net)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 15:46:43 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
Message-ID: <09F1E021.2503F12E.DB881660@netscape.net>

Ryan Hess <rgmecm at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>Question: how have ECM schematics been acquired in the past? ?the 
>7730/49 on ludis' site, etc?
Old fashioned reverse engineering.

>I'm in contact with an ECM remanufacturer, who 
>presumably has a great deal of knowledge locked away somewhere. ?The 
>question is, how do I coerce it out of them? ?

Maybe you should request information as an ecm remanufacturer?  There are a few rebuilders, they must have obtained information in some way.
I'm specifically looking 
>for a schematic of a '2240.
>
>
>I have to assume this is like the TV repair business, where the mfr 
>charges a fee for access to their schematics..

They may not release schematics at all.  GM is a provider of rebuilt ecm's.  They have no need to support the business of repairing and rebuilding computers.

I know that it's easier to pull a hen's teeth than obtain Delco service information for audio products, even those which are 15 years old.  And once you get service info, finding parts is even tougher.

Zaphod



__________________________________________________________________
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From rgmecm at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  8 15:25:19 2006
From: rgmecm at yahoo.com (Ryan Hess)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 13:25:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
In-Reply-To: <09F1E021.2503F12E.DB881660@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <20060608202519.75768.qmail@web35914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Wow, I did not know that.  I can't imagine going through a 4 layer board, and worse, trying to figure out what IC does what.

Who would you suggest I request information from?  Delphi?  Who built their early 90's OBDI ECM's?  

As sort of an aside, GM stopped making/supporting the 1228331 ECM found on ZR1 vettes and the turbo lotus.  There was another part # that superceeded it, but I believe it too had been discontinued.  What are those people to do?  They don't exist in junkyards (I've looked), and there's *one* on ebay for nearly $600.  If GM doesn't release the schematic for it, wouldn't they be out of luck?  

This secretive environment is just terrible.  These things are approaching 15-20 years old now.  



davesnothereman at netscape.net wrote: Ryan Hess  wrote:

>
>Question: how have ECM schematics been acquired in the past? ???the 
>7730/49 on ludis' site, etc?
Old fashioned reverse engineering.

>I'm in contact with an ECM remanufacturer, who 
>presumably has a great deal of knowledge locked away somewhere. ???The 
>question is, how do I coerce it out of them? ???

Maybe you should request information as an ecm remanufacturer?  There are a few rebuilders, they must have obtained information in some way.
I'm specifically looking 
>for a schematic of a '2240.
>
>
>I have to assume this is like the TV repair business, where the mfr 
>charges a fee for access to their schematics..

They may not release schematics at all.  GM is a provider of rebuilt ecm's.  They have no need to support the business of repairing and rebuilding computers.

I know that it's easier to pull a hen's teeth than obtain Delco service information for audio products, even those which are 15 years old.  And once you get service info, finding parts is even tougher.

Zaphod



__________________________________________________________________
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Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
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_______________________________________________
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http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm


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From charles at taildragger.info  Thu Jun  8 15:39:51 2006
From: charles at taildragger.info (charles at taildragger.info)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 14:39:51 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
In-Reply-To: <20060608202519.75768.qmail@web35914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <09F1E021.2503F12E.DB881660@netscape.net>
	<20060608202519.75768.qmail@web35914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <36313.205.175.225.5.1149799191.squirrel@www.taildragger.info>

Seems like there'd be a market for new ECM's that connect to all the
factory wiring, but use modern electronics.  Plus maybe do things a little
better (bigger BLM map, etc.) and with better instrumentation.

I don't think there's anything like this though, is there?  I mean,
besides DIY plans.

> Wow, I did not know that.  I can't imagine going through a 4 layer board,
> and worse, trying to figure out what IC does what.
>
> Who would you suggest I request information from?  Delphi?  Who built
> their early 90's OBDI ECM's?
>
> As sort of an aside, GM stopped making/supporting the 1228331 ECM found on
> ZR1 vettes and the turbo lotus.  There was another part # that superceeded
> it, but I believe it too had been discontinued.  What are those people to
> do?  They don't exist in junkyards (I've looked), and there's *one* on
> ebay for nearly $600.  If GM doesn't release the schematic for it,
> wouldn't they be out of luck?
>
> This secretive environment is just terrible.  These things are approaching
> 15-20 years old now.
>
>
>
> davesnothereman at netscape.net wrote: Ryan Hess  wrote:
>
>>
>>Question: how have ECM schematics been acquired in the past? ???the
>>7730/49 on ludis' site, etc?
> Old fashioned reverse engineering.
>
>>I'm in contact with an ECM remanufacturer, who
>>presumably has a great deal of knowledge locked away somewhere. ???The
>>question is, how do I coerce it out of them? ???
>
> Maybe you should request information as an ecm remanufacturer?  There are
> a few rebuilders, they must have obtained information in some way.
> I'm specifically looking
>>for a schematic of a '2240.
>>
>>
>>I have to assume this is like the TV repair business, where the mfr
>>charges a fee for access to their schematics..
>
> They may not release schematics at all.  GM is a provider of rebuilt
> ecm's.  They have no need to support the business of repairing and
> rebuilding computers.
>
> I know that it's easier to pull a hen's teeth than obtain Delco service
> information for audio products, even those which are 15 years old.  And
> once you get service info, finding parts is even tougher.
>
> Zaphod
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Switch to Netscape Internet Service.
> As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at
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>
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>
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> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
>
>
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>



From squelch at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jun  8 16:01:39 2006
From: squelch at ix.netcom.com (squelch at ix.netcom.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:01:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
Message-ID: <3954751.1149800500348.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

>As sort of an aside, GM stopped making/supporting the 1228331 ECM found on ZR1 vettes and the turbo lotus.  There was another part # that superceeded it, but I believe it too had been discontinued.  What are those people to do?  They don't exist in junkyards (I've looked), and there's *one* on ebay for nearly $600.  If GM doesn't release the schematic for it, wouldn't they be out of luck?  

Actually the 1228331 was used on the ZR-1 and the Lotus Carlton (Inline 6 twin turbo engine, never came to the states)  The 4 cylinder Lotus Esprit turbo uses a different Delphi/GM ECM, but it is also on the endangered list...



John 



From burntkat at sc.rr.com  Thu Jun  8 17:36:23 2006
From: burntkat at sc.rr.com (Burntkat@sc.rr.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 18:36:23 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
In-Reply-To: <20060608202519.75768.qmail@web35914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000401c68b4b$f8923fa0$079fa8c0@brigid>

That's when they introduce you to one of the Sales Droids-- 
"While we're waiting for that info, why don't we go look around the lot at
some of the new models?"

-Signed,
former GM sales droid

Seriously, on all accounts. You don't expect them to care about keeping old
models on the road, do you? That doesn't keep GM afloat. But then, neither
does their management OR business model, from the looks of things...




-----Original Message-----
From: gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf
Of Ryan Hess
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 4:25 PM
To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic


As sort of an aside, GM stopped making/supporting the 1228331 ECM found on
ZR1 vettes and the turbo lotus.  There was another part # that superceeded
it, but I believe it too had been discontinued.  What are those people to
do?  They don't exist in junkyards (I've looked), and there's *one* on ebay
for nearly $600.  If GM doesn't release the schematic for it, wouldn't they
be out of luck?  




From jay at vessels-clan.com  Thu Jun  8 18:50:50 2006
From: jay at vessels-clan.com (Jay Vessels)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 19:50:50 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
In-Reply-To: <36313.205.175.225.5.1149799191.squirrel@www.taildragger.info>
References: <09F1E021.2503F12E.DB881660@netscape.net>
	<20060608202519.75768.qmail@web35914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<36313.205.175.225.5.1149799191.squirrel@www.taildragger.info>
Message-ID: <4488B7DA.2010807@vessels-clan.com>

Hi there!

charles at taildragger.info wrote:
> Seems like there'd be a market for new ECM's that connect to all the
> factory wiring, but use modern electronics.  Plus maybe do things a little
> better (bigger BLM map, etc.) and with better instrumentation.
> 
> I don't think there's anything like this though, is there?  I mean,
> besides DIY plans.

The biggest obsticles to building a "superECM" as suggested on a large 
scale are many, including potential patent infringement and emmissions 
certification.  I don't see a market for it, since most customers want a 
replacement part (i.e. don't care about better code or tuning tools) or 
they want a full-custom aftermarket ECM.  Those of us wanting a better 
GM ECM to hack/tune/play with are relatively few and our needs are 
served reasonably well with what we already have or are willing to build.

There is a group on Thirdgen rewriting the TBI code, but it runs on a 
stock GM ECM.

There are plenty of people willing to sell you an aftermarket ECM, like 
FAST.  They are all DIY tuning (with various levels of software and 
support) and most will run old and modern engines in many states of 
tune.  These are targeted mainly at the aftermarket performance crowd, 
and as such are usually tilted at those with hotter than stock engines, 
nitrous control, boost control, etc.  They are a good choice for cars 
whose ECMs are not hacked nearly as completely as GM offerings and for 
owners that do not want to go the DIY route on hacking/tuning.

The downsides are cost, availability in the event of failure (AutoZone 
stocks most common ECMs but not a FAST / Holley / etc. one, so don't 
break down somewhere with an ECM failure), and some limitations with 
handing some of the things that GM ECMs handle out of the box.  They are 
not pin-for-pin compatible but that's an easy problem to solve.

The biggest problem for many may be that they are not 
emmissions-certified, and I doubt an OBD-II car with such an aftermarket 
ECM would pass (even if it were running clean at the tailpipe) due to 
the OBD-II conversations the test centers have with the vehicle.

Jay Vessels
1982 Chevrolet S-10 Sport, 2.8V6 TBI
1984 Chevrolet S-10 Blazer Sport, 2.8V6 (TBI pending)


From bcroe at juno.com  Thu Jun  8 21:41:22 2006
From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 21:41:22 -0500
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
Message-ID: <20060608.214155.300.3.bcroe@juno.com>

There is a systematic way to get the schematic of a ckt board.  
Its harder if you can't identify some parts, but often a scope 
and a bench can discover the secrets.

Bruce (reverse engineered 79 Cadillac EFI) Roe

8 Jun 2006  Ryan Hess <rgmecm at yahoo.com> writes:
> Wow, I did not know that.  I can't imagine going through a 4 layer 
> board, and worse, trying to figure out what IC does what.


From 0708431308 at telia.com  Fri Jun  9 11:35:56 2006
From: 0708431308 at telia.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Christian_m=F6ller?=)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 18:35:56 +0200
Subject: [Gmecm] Choke
Message-ID: <000601c68be2$c8911960$6401a8c0@HP>

Hello everybody!
I need some help with an "choke" issue,it starts up good but when i shift to
reverse or drive it stops or run rough.
I have a TBI and a 7747 setup on my jeep(amc 360)and RT-tuner to tune with.
Which tables do i use?
Is there any who can help me?
Thankyou Christian





From charles at taildragger.info  Fri Jun  9 12:09:40 2006
From: charles at taildragger.info (charles at taildragger.info)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:09:40 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Gmecm] Aftermarket ECM (was Acquiring ECM schematic_
In-Reply-To: <4488B7DA.2010807@vessels-clan.com>
References: <09F1E021.2503F12E.DB881660@netscape.net>
	<20060608202519.75768.qmail@web35914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<36313.205.175.225.5.1149799191.squirrel@www.taildragger.info>
	<4488B7DA.2010807@vessels-clan.com>
Message-ID: <49384.205.175.225.5.1149872980.squirrel@www.taildragger.info>

You can really get a 7747 ECM (e.g.) at Autozone?  I tried on their web
site but couldn't find anything.  That's good to know if true.

Unfortunately, my ECM is modified to take EEPROMs, but I suppose I could
burn an old UV PROM for emergencies.

> Hi there!
>
> charles at taildragger.info wrote:
>> Seems like there'd be a market for new ECM's that connect to all the
>> factory wiring, but use modern electronics.  Plus maybe do things a
>> little
>> better (bigger BLM map, etc.) and with better instrumentation.
>>
>> I don't think there's anything like this though, is there?  I mean,
>> besides DIY plans.
>
> The biggest obsticles to building a "superECM" as suggested on a large
> scale are many, including potential patent infringement and emmissions
> certification.  I don't see a market for it, since most customers want a
> replacement part (i.e. don't care about better code or tuning tools) or
> they want a full-custom aftermarket ECM.  Those of us wanting a better
> GM ECM to hack/tune/play with are relatively few and our needs are
> served reasonably well with what we already have or are willing to build.
>
> There is a group on Thirdgen rewriting the TBI code, but it runs on a
> stock GM ECM.
>
> There are plenty of people willing to sell you an aftermarket ECM, like
> FAST.  They are all DIY tuning (with various levels of software and
> support) and most will run old and modern engines in many states of
> tune.  These are targeted mainly at the aftermarket performance crowd,
> and as such are usually tilted at those with hotter than stock engines,
> nitrous control, boost control, etc.  They are a good choice for cars
> whose ECMs are not hacked nearly as completely as GM offerings and for
> owners that do not want to go the DIY route on hacking/tuning.
>
> The downsides are cost, availability in the event of failure (AutoZone
> stocks most common ECMs but not a FAST / Holley / etc. one, so don't
> break down somewhere with an ECM failure), and some limitations with
> handing some of the things that GM ECMs handle out of the box.  They are
> not pin-for-pin compatible but that's an easy problem to solve.
>
> The biggest problem for many may be that they are not
> emmissions-certified, and I doubt an OBD-II car with such an aftermarket
> ECM would pass (even if it were running clean at the tailpipe) due to
> the OBD-II conversations the test centers have with the vehicle.
>
> Jay Vessels
> 1982 Chevrolet S-10 Sport, 2.8V6 TBI
> 1984 Chevrolet S-10 Blazer Sport, 2.8V6 (TBI pending)
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
>



From william.lucke at highspeedlink.net  Fri Jun  9 12:19:45 2006
From: william.lucke at highspeedlink.net (William Lucke)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:19:45 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
Message-ID: <4489ADB1.4040701@highspeedlink.net>

The secretive environment may stem in part from EPA regulations. I 
mentioned DIY ECM programming to Allen Cline once and he commented that 
GM had no licensed anyone to do anything with the code and said that 
providing me with an uncertified program for the Cadillac Northstar 
could cost him his job, because it would amount to a violation of EPA 
regulations regarding MFG's putting out non-emissions compliant info/parts.

Heaven forbid that 0.0000000002% of cars on the road have tweaked 
ECM's... Typical government bullshit.



Will


> From: Ryan Hess <rgmecm at yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
> 
> Wow, I did not know that.  I can't imagine going through a 4 layer board, and worse, trying to figure out what IC does what.
> 
> Who would you suggest I request information from?  Delphi?  Who built their early 90's OBDI ECM's?  
> 
> As sort of an aside, GM stopped making/supporting the 1228331 ECM found on ZR1 vettes and the turbo lotus.  There was another part # that superceeded it, but I believe it too had been discontinued.  What are those people to do?  They don't exist in junkyards (I've looked), and there's *one* on ebay for nearly $600.  If GM doesn't release the schematic for it, wouldn't they be out of luck?  
> 
> This secretive environment is just terrible.  These things are approaching 15-20 years old now.  
> 
> 
> 
> davesnothereman at netscape.net wrote: Ryan Hess  wrote:
> 
>> Question: how have ECM schematics been acquired in the past? ???the 
>> 7730/49 on ludis' site, etc?
> Old fashioned reverse engineering.
> 
>> I'm in contact with an ECM remanufacturer, who 
>> presumably has a great deal of knowledge locked away somewhere. ???The 
>> question is, how do I coerce it out of them? ???
> 
> Maybe you should request information as an ecm remanufacturer?  There are a few rebuilders, they must have obtained information in some way.
> I'm specifically looking 
>> for a schematic of a '2240.
>>
>>
>> I have to assume this is like the TV repair business, where the mfr 
>> charges a fee for access to their schematics..
> 
> They may not release schematics at all.  GM is a provider of rebuilt ecm's.  They have no need to support the business of repairing and rebuilding computers.
> 
> I know that it's easier to pull a hen's teeth than obtain Delco service information for audio products, even those which are 15 years old.  And once you get service info, finding parts is even tougher.
> 
> Zaphod


From william.lucke at highspeedlink.net  Fri Jun  9 12:22:49 2006
From: william.lucke at highspeedlink.net (William Lucke)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:22:49 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Gmecm Digest, Vol 16, Issue 10
Message-ID: <4489AE69.5080702@highspeedlink.net>

APEX'i Power FC's are built along this line... pin/pin compatible with 
various OE ECM's, but programmable and with more "performance" oriented 
features. They are almost exclusively for Japanese imports, though. A 
friend has one in his turbo MR2 Spyder. It's an interesting gizmo. It's 
more limited than hacking a GM computer, but it gets the job done nicely.

DSMLink is a hack of the factory computer for DSM's (Eagle Talons, Mitsu 
Eclipses) that makes the factory computer reasonably tunable, although 
again, this does not have the capability of a hacked GM computer.




Will

> From: charles at taildragger.info
> Subject: RE: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
> 
> Seems like there'd be a market for new ECM's that connect to all the
> factory wiring, but use modern electronics.  Plus maybe do things a little
> better (bigger BLM map, etc.) and with better instrumentation.
> 
> I don't think there's anything like this though, is there?  I mean,
> besides DIY plans.
> 
>> Wow, I did not know that.  I can't imagine going through a 4 layer board,
>> and worse, trying to figure out what IC does what.
>>
>> Who would you suggest I request information from?  Delphi?  Who built
>> their early 90's OBDI ECM's?
>>
>> As sort of an aside, GM stopped making/supporting the 1228331 ECM found on
>> ZR1 vettes and the turbo lotus.  There was another part # that superceeded
>> it, but I believe it too had been discontinued.  What are those people to
>> do?  They don't exist in junkyards (I've looked), and there's *one* on
>> ebay for nearly $600.  If GM doesn't release the schematic for it,
>> wouldn't they be out of luck?
>>
>> This secretive environment is just terrible.  These things are approaching
>> 15-20 years old now.
>>
>>
>>
>> davesnothereman at netscape.net wrote: Ryan Hess  wrote:
>>
>>> Question: how have ECM schematics been acquired in the past? ???the
>>> 7730/49 on ludis' site, etc?
>> Old fashioned reverse engineering.
>>
>>> I'm in contact with an ECM remanufacturer, who
>>> presumably has a great deal of knowledge locked away somewhere. ???The
>>> question is, how do I coerce it out of them? ???
>> Maybe you should request information as an ecm remanufacturer?  There are
>> a few rebuilders, they must have obtained information in some way.
>> I'm specifically looking
>>> for a schematic of a '2240.
>>>
>>>
>>> I have to assume this is like the TV repair business, where the mfr
>>> charges a fee for access to their schematics..
>> They may not release schematics at all.  GM is a provider of rebuilt
>> ecm's.  They have no need to support the business of repairing and
>> rebuilding computers.
>>
>> I know that it's easier to pull a hen's teeth than obtain Delco service
>> information for audio products, even those which are 15 years old.  And
>> once you get service info, finding parts is even tougher.
>>
>> Zaphod


From rgmecm at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  9 13:03:54 2006
From: rgmecm at yahoo.com (Ryan Hess)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
In-Reply-To: <4489ADB1.4040701@highspeedlink.net>
Message-ID: <20060609180354.31657.qmail@web35909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

And what about schematics?  <grin>

I think you can get away with anything if you slap the "for offroad use only" sticker on it.



William Lucke <william.lucke at highspeedlink.net> wrote: The secretive environment may stem in part from EPA regulations. I 
mentioned DIY ECM programming to Allen Cline once and he commented that 
GM had no licensed anyone to do anything with the code and said that 
providing me with an uncertified program for the Cadillac Northstar 
could cost him his job, because it would amount to a violation of EPA 
regulations regarding MFG's putting out non-emissions compliant info/parts.

Heaven forbid that 0.0000000002% of cars on the road have tweaked 
ECM's... Typical government bullshit.



Will


> From: Ryan Hess 
> Subject: RE: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
> 
> Wow, I did not know that.  I can't imagine going through a 4 layer board, and worse, trying to figure out what IC does what.
> 
> Who would you suggest I request information from?  Delphi?  Who built their early 90's OBDI ECM's?  
> 
> As sort of an aside, GM stopped making/supporting the 1228331 ECM found on ZR1 vettes and the turbo lotus.  There was another part # that superceeded it, but I believe it too had been discontinued.  What are those people to do?  They don't exist in junkyards (I've looked), and there's *one* on ebay for nearly $600.  If GM doesn't release the schematic for it, wouldn't they be out of luck?  
> 
> This secretive environment is just terrible.  These things are approaching 15-20 years old now.  
> 
> 
> 
> davesnothereman at netscape.net wrote: Ryan Hess  wrote:
> 
>> Question: how have ECM schematics been acquired in the past? ???the 
>> 7730/49 on ludis' site, etc?
> Old fashioned reverse engineering.
> 
>> I'm in contact with an ECM remanufacturer, who 
>> presumably has a great deal of knowledge locked away somewhere. ???The 
>> question is, how do I coerce it out of them? ???
> 
> Maybe you should request information as an ecm remanufacturer?  There are a few rebuilders, they must have obtained information in some way.
> I'm specifically looking 
>> for a schematic of a '2240.
>>
>>
>> I have to assume this is like the TV repair business, where the mfr 
>> charges a fee for access to their schematics..
> 
> They may not release schematics at all.  GM is a provider of rebuilt ecm's.  They have no need to support the business of repairing and rebuilding computers.
> 
> I know that it's easier to pull a hen's teeth than obtain Delco service information for audio products, even those which are 15 years old.  And once you get service info, finding parts is even tougher.
> 
> Zaphod
_______________________________________________
Gmecm mailing list
Gmecm at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm


 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From aoturneriii at tds.net  Fri Jun  9 13:50:32 2006
From: aoturneriii at tds.net (Arby)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 14:50:32 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Choke
References: <000601c68be2$c8911960$6401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <006501c68bf5$98837c00$0300a8c0@NATALIE>

In the constants table there is a value called IAC PARK OR NEUTRAL OFFSET. 
What it does, it moves the idle air motor the number of steps you enter to 
prevent the engine from stalling when you shift from park or neutral to 
another gear.  You might try messing with that value.  I really hope this 
helps.

Arby

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Christian m?ller" <0708431308 at telia.com>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: [Gmecm] Choke


> Hello everybody!
> I need some help with an "choke" issue,it starts up good but when i shift 
> to
> reverse or drive it stops or run rough.
> I have a TBI and a 7747 setup on my jeep(amc 360)and RT-tuner to tune 
> with.
> Which tables do i use?
> Is there any who can help me?
> Thankyou Christian
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm 



From andrewsharyn at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  9 21:13:31 2006
From: andrewsharyn at yahoo.com (Andrew Gibson)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 19:13:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
Message-ID: <20060610021331.19259.qmail@web60816.mail.yahoo.com>

I have some info that I think will be useful to all out there concerning triggering of the gm Ignition modules. The distributors don't produce an occilating wave form. (AC Sine wave) I dont know what it is called but here are pictures of both styles so you can see the difference. I also plagerized these from elsewhere so please don't send me nasty notes about not getting the exact patterns or going to the work of creating a website about it.
   
  The sine wave is produced from square teeth. Most mag pulse generators make one like this: www.picotech.com/auto/graphics/fuel_pump_waveform.png
   
  Triangular teeth (GM distributors) make this wave form (Please keep in mind this is only the positive side or upper half. The lower half or negative is a upside down mirror opposite) www.krchealth.com/images/waveform.jpg
   
  The vertical slope is what triggers the module. The module is looking for a specific voltage point to trigger the internal transistor. Too little voltage and nothing will happen. The vertical slope is used because it is always in the same place. If you wire the pickup coil backwards or the magnet is on upside down, the slope will show up first. The timing will be off by about 40 degrees and will change drastically as the engine rpms change (The pattern changes size as the magnetic field speeds up.)
   
  Since I know there will be questions and challenges about timing on a conventional crank sensor with a sine wave: Anything with a crank sensor requires an analog to digital converter. (AD converter) It is additional electronics which were not available in the 70's when gm started using modules instead of points. They also require more space than is available inside a distributor. And also cost a lot more.
   
  In short, the polarity is vital. Triggering off a slope will get you an injector pulse, but will never get you an accurate timing control without an AD converter and a lot of extra homework.

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From bcroe at juno.com  Fri Jun  9 23:02:06 2006
From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 23:02:06 -0500
Subject: [Gmecm] Big cap HEI on 7747
Message-ID: <20060609.232052.924.3.bcroe@juno.com>

I'm going to add to this.  That second image isn't the whole 
story, because there is no flat horizontal line at left except 
when the shaft first starts turning.  More importantly, the 
waveform is balanced above and below ground, or + and 
- portions if you like.  The very sharp edge occurs when the 
magnetic field stops building, and starts declining; that 
is about as the pole pieces are closest.  This always 
occurs the same spot, though velocity may change the 
amplitude and period of the waveform.  

The module senses the crossing of voltage from one 
polarity to the other; the voltage it switches at is zero, position 
of which is not affected by amplitude.  The module is supposed 
to fire on the very rapid transition, which will be very accurate.  
If the wires are reversed, the module will fire on the very slow 
changing part of the waveform crossing zero, which is way off 
in time and not so accurate.  My recollection is that proper 
firing is on the negative edge (relative to ground).  

Bruce Roe

9 Jun 2006  Andrew Gibson <andrewsharyn at yahoo.com> writes:
> I have some info that I think will be useful to all out there 
> concerning triggering of the gm Ignition modules. The distributors 
> don't produce an occilating wave form. (AC Sine wave) I dont know 
> what it is called but here are pictures of both styles so you can 
> see the difference. I also plagerized these from elsewhere so please 
> don't send me nasty notes about not getting the exact patterns or 
> going to the work of creating a website about it.
>    
>   The sine wave is produced from square teeth. Most mag pulse 
> generators make one like this: 
> www.picotech.com/auto/graphics/fuel_pump_waveform.png
>    
>   Triangular teeth (GM distributors) make this wave form (Please 
> keep in mind this is only the positive side or upper half. The lower 
> half or negative is a upside down mirror opposite) 
> www.krchealth.com/images/waveform.jpg
>    
>   The vertical slope is what triggers the module. The module is 
> looking for a specific voltage point to trigger the internal 
> transistor. Too little voltage and nothing will happen. The vertical 
> slope is used because it is always in the same place. If you wire 
> the pickup coil backwards or the magnet is on upside down, the slope 
> will show up first. The timing will be off by about 40 degrees and 
> will change drastically as the engine rpms change (The pattern 
> changes size as the magnetic field speeds up.)
>    
>   Since I know there will be questions and challenges about timing 
> on a conventional crank sensor with a sine wave: Anything with a 
> crank sensor requires an analog to digital converter. (AD converter) 
> It is additional electronics which were not available in the 70's 
> when gm started using modules instead of points. They also require 
> more space than is available inside a distributor. And also cost a 
> lot more.
>    
>   In short, the polarity is vital. Triggering off a slope will get 
> you an injector pulse, but will never get you an accurate timing 
> control without an AD converter and a lot of extra homework.


From Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk  Sat Jun 10 04:42:37 2006
From: Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk (Robin Handley)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 10:42:37 +0100
Subject: [Gmecm] Big cap HEI on 7747
References: <20060609.232052.924.3.bcroe@juno.com>
Message-ID: <028501c68c72$36867660$020101c0@gandalf>

Please excuse my ignorance.

Is the upshot of this discussion that dizzy triggering does or does not
provide adequately accurate timing (for ignition/injection), IFF the two
wires of the reluctor trigger are connected the correct way around to the
HEI?

Robin

----- Original Message -----
From: <bcroe at juno.com>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: 10 June 2006 05:02
Subject: [Gmecm] Big cap HEI on 7747


> I'm going to add to this.  That second image isn't the whole
> story, because there is no flat horizontal line at left except
> when the shaft first starts turning.  More importantly, the
> waveform is balanced above and below ground, or + and
> - portions if you like.  The very sharp edge occurs when the
> magnetic field stops building, and starts declining; that
> is about as the pole pieces are closest.  This always
> occurs the same spot, though velocity may change the
> amplitude and period of the waveform.
>
> The module senses the crossing of voltage from one
> polarity to the other; the voltage it switches at is zero, position
> of which is not affected by amplitude.  The module is supposed
> to fire on the very rapid transition, which will be very accurate.
> If the wires are reversed, the module will fire on the very slow
> changing part of the waveform crossing zero, which is way off
> in time and not so accurate.  My recollection is that proper
> firing is on the negative edge (relative to ground).
>
> Bruce Roe
>
> 9 Jun 2006  Andrew Gibson <andrewsharyn at yahoo.com> writes:
> > I have some info that I think will be useful to all out there
> > concerning triggering of the gm Ignition modules. The distributors
> > don't produce an occilating wave form. (AC Sine wave) I dont know
> > what it is called but here are pictures of both styles so you can
> > see the difference. I also plagerized these from elsewhere so please
> > don't send me nasty notes about not getting the exact patterns or
> > going to the work of creating a website about it.
> >
> >   The sine wave is produced from square teeth. Most mag pulse
> > generators make one like this:
> > www.picotech.com/auto/graphics/fuel_pump_waveform.png
> >
> >   Triangular teeth (GM distributors) make this wave form (Please
> > keep in mind this is only the positive side or upper half. The lower
> > half or negative is a upside down mirror opposite)
> > www.krchealth.com/images/waveform.jpg
> >
> >   The vertical slope is what triggers the module. The module is
> > looking for a specific voltage point to trigger the internal
> > transistor. Too little voltage and nothing will happen. The vertical
> > slope is used because it is always in the same place. If you wire
> > the pickup coil backwards or the magnet is on upside down, the slope
> > will show up first. The timing will be off by about 40 degrees and
> > will change drastically as the engine rpms change (The pattern
> > changes size as the magnetic field speeds up.)
> >
> >   Since I know there will be questions and challenges about timing
> > on a conventional crank sensor with a sine wave: Anything with a
> > crank sensor requires an analog to digital converter. (AD converter)
> > It is additional electronics which were not available in the 70's
> > when gm started using modules instead of points. They also require
> > more space than is available inside a distributor. And also cost a
> > lot more.
> >
> >   In short, the polarity is vital. Triggering off a slope will get
> > you an injector pulse, but will never get you an accurate timing
> > control without an AD converter and a lot of extra homework.
> _______________________________________________
> Gmecm mailing list
> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm
>



From davesnothereman at netscape.net  Sat Jun 10 07:36:01 2006
From: davesnothereman at netscape.net (davesnothereman at netscape.net)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 08:36:01 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
In-Reply-To: <20060608202519.75768.qmail@web35914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8C85AA1914DC60D-1048-1DC58@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com>

AFAIK The 8331 guys have to stick together.  When Chevrolet announced 
no more parts for the ZR1 everything suddenly disappeared.  I suppose 
the guys who can afford that car can also afford the parts?  It must be 
really tough if you're not a resident of the US.

I have to think the wise answer is to move on to the next generation of 
engine control hardware, at least for us.  The later pcm's have more of 
everything... but we really aren't using them.  Why?  Same old story.  
Not enough info about the code, not enough tools to work with them.

It's really, really too bad that GM / Delco / Delphi never saw fit to 
release a reasonably priced aftermarket ecm.  Even an "offroad only" 
limited function code for a specific OBDII pcm would have been nice.

Zaphod

-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Hess <rgmecm at yahoo.com>
To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
Sent: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 13:25:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic

   Wow, I did not know that.  I can't imagine going through a 4 layer 
board, and
worse, trying to figure out what IC does what.

Who would you suggest I request information from?  Delphi?  Who built 
their
early 90's OBDI ECM's?

As sort of an aside, GM stopped making/supporting the 1228331 ECM found 
on ZR1
vettes and the turbo lotus.  There was another part # that superceeded 
it, but I
believe it too had been discontinued.  What are those people to do?  
They don't
exist in junkyards (I've looked), and there's *one* on ebay for nearly 
$600.  If
GM doesn't release the schematic for it, wouldn't they be out of luck?

This secretive environment is just terrible.  These things are 
approaching 15-20
years old now.



davesnothereman at netscape.net wrote: Ryan Hess  wrote:

>
>Question: how have ECM schematics been acquired in the past? ???the
>7730/49 on ludis' site, etc?
Old fashioned reverse engineering.

>I'm in contact with an ECM remanufacturer, who
>presumably has a great deal of knowledge locked away somewhere. ???The
>question is, how do I coerce it out of them? ???

Maybe you should request information as an ecm remanufacturer?  There 
are a few
rebuilders, they must have obtained information in some way.
I'm specifically looking
>for a schematic of a '2240.
>
>
>I have to assume this is like the TV repair business, where the mfr
>charges a fee for access to their schematics..

They may not release schematics at all.  GM is a provider of rebuilt 
ecm's.
They have no need to support the business of repairing and rebuilding 
computers.

I know that it's easier to pull a hen's teeth than obtain Delco service
information for audio products, even those which are 15 years old.  And 
once you
get service info, finding parts is even tougher.

Zaphod



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From davesnothereman at netscape.net  Sat Jun 10 07:42:30 2006
From: davesnothereman at netscape.net (davesnothereman at netscape.net)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 08:42:30 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
In-Reply-To: <4489ADB1.4040701@highspeedlink.net>
References: <4489ADB1.4040701@highspeedlink.net>
Message-ID: <8C85AA278BA06F6-1048-1DC8E@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com>

Yeah, the concern over liability is everywhere in GM land.  I called GM 
customer service line looking for specs for a cam once, a cam sold for 
"offroad use only", and when I mentioned that I was going to use it in 
an offroad engine in a modified vehicle (racecar) the person at the 
other end wouldn't talk to me any more.  I had to call back and I made 
sure to only answer questions I was asked. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: William Lucke <william.lucke at highspeedlink.net>
To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
Sent: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:19:45 -0400
Subject: RE: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic

   The secretive environment may stem in part from EPA regulations. I 
mentioned DIY ECM programming to Allen Cline once and he commented that 
GM had no licensed anyone to do anything with the code and said that 
providing me with an uncertified program for the Cadillac Northstar 
could cost him his job, because it would amount to a violation of EPA 
regulations regarding MFG's putting out non-emissions compliant 
info/parts.

  Heaven forbid that 0.0000000002% of cars on the road have tweaked 
ECM's... Typical government bullshit.


 Will

 > From: Ryan Hess <rgmecm at yahoo.com>
 > Subject: RE: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
  > > Wow, I did not know that. I can't imagine going through a 4 layer 
board, and worse, trying to figure out what IC does what.
  > > Who would you suggest I request information from? Delphi? Who 
built their early 90's OBDI ECM's? > > As sort of an aside, GM stopped 
making/supporting the 1228331 ECM found on ZR1 vettes and the turbo 
lotus. There was another part # that superceeded it, but I believe it 
too had been discontinued. What are those people to do? They don't 
exist in junkyards (I've looked), and there's *one* on ebay for nearly 
$600. If GM doesn't release the schematic for it, wouldn't they be out 
of luck? > > This secretive environment is just terrible. These things 
are approaching 15-20 years old now. > > > > 
davesnothereman at netscape.net wrote: Ryan Hess wrote:
  > >> Question: how have ECM schematics been acquired in the past? 
???the >> 7730/49 on ludis' site, etc?
 > Old fashioned reverse engineering.
  > >> I'm in contact with an ECM remanufacturer, who >> presumably has 
a great deal of knowledge locked away somewhere. ???The >> question is, 
how do I coerce it out of them? ???
  > > Maybe you should request information as an ecm remanufacturer? 
There are a few rebuilders, they must have obtained information in some 
way.
 > I'm specifically looking >> for a schematic of a '2240.
 >>
 >>
  >> I have to assume this is like the TV repair business, where the mfr 
>> charges a fee for access to their schematics..
  > > They may not release schematics at all. GM is a provider of 
rebuilt ecm's. They have no need to support the business of repairing 
and rebuilding computers.
  > > I know that it's easier to pull a hen's teeth than obtain Delco 
service information for audio products, even those which are 15 years 
old. And once you get service info, finding parts is even tougher.
 > > Zaphod
 _______________________________________________
 Gmecm mailing list
 Gmecm at diy-efi.org
 http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm


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From davesnothereman at netscape.net  Sat Jun 10 07:56:32 2006
From: davesnothereman at netscape.net (davesnothereman at netscape.net)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 08:56:32 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Clearing fault codes
In-Reply-To: <000601c68945$e5733800$020101c0@gandalf>
References: <C0A8748C.99B2%b.shaw@comcast.net>
	<000601c68945$e5733800$020101c0@gandalf>
Message-ID: <8C85AA46E93B0E6-1048-1DCE2@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com>

I haven't had any luck using aftermarket laptop software to clear 7749 
MALF's.  I can't remember if the dealer scantool was effective for 
this.  I generally pull the plug if I need to clear the codes right now.

There is code in the $58 which causes the ecm to automatically clear 
MALF's from memory after a specific number of key cycles.  I set that 
to 5, figuring that a current code will continue to be current, and a 
passing code due to my error with an eprom or running too much boost 
shouldn't hang around at all.


Zaphod

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Handley <Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk>
To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
Sent: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 09:47:50 +0100
Subject: [Gmecm] Clearing fault codes

   I've been trying to get rid of some spurious fault codes and I've 
realised
that I'm not exactly sure how they latch.

If the fault (e.g. 33 - MAP too HIGH) goes away, after it has been 
present,
should the flag automatically clear? Or is a total ECM reset required? 
I've
had no luck with using ALDL commands to clear malfs. Is it required to
remove all power from the ECM? If so, for how long?

Robin

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http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/gmecm


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From davesnothereman at netscape.net  Sat Jun 10 07:56:48 2006
From: davesnothereman at netscape.net (davesnothereman at netscape.net)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 08:56:48 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] 'Improper shutdown'
In-Reply-To: <002701c6898d$8b935340$020101c0@gandalf>
References: <C0A8748C.99B2%b.shaw@comcast.net>
	<002701c6898d$8b935340$020101c0@gandalf>
Message-ID: <8C85AA4780E01CD-1048-1DCE7@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com>

Good question.  I believe it's an engine shutdown without interruption 
to ignition power.  It's a stall IOW.

Zaphod

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Handley <Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk>
To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
Sent: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:20:41 +0100
Subject: [Gmecm] 'Improper shutdown'

   Been looking at my Sunbird mode words and wondering: what's an 
'improper
shutdown'?

Robin

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From bcroe at juno.com  Sat Jun 10 10:53:42 2006
From: bcroe at juno.com (bcroe at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 10:53:42 -0500
Subject: [Gmecm] Big cap HEI on 7747
Message-ID: <20060610.105343.316.1.bcroe@juno.com>

It is extremely important to have the wires connected the correct way.  

Bruce Roe

10 Jun 2006  "Robin Handley" <Robin at FuryWorld.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
> Please excuse my ignorance.
> 
> Is the upshot of this discussion that dizzy triggering does or does 
> not
> provide adequately accurate timing (for ignition/injection), IFF the 
> two
> wires of the reluctor trigger are connected the correct way around 
> to the
> HEI?
> 
> Robin


From rgmecm at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 10 12:58:01 2006
From: rgmecm at yahoo.com (Ryan Hess)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 10:58:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
In-Reply-To: <8C85AA1914DC60D-1048-1DC58@mblkn-m14.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20060610175801.17216.qmail@web35911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Lets try this again...  my first message bounced from the mail server.

I may have acquired an 8331.  Anybody wanna see what's inside?  :D  
Anybody want anything specific done?  I was thinking about taking high res 
pics, and putting them up on the DIY-EFI ftp or something.  Don't know 
how, but I don't have it yet...  I'm trying to get the wiring diagram 
as well.

in re: the OBDII...  All we really need is someone to leak the source 
code for one. 

Ryan

davesnot


davesnothereman at netscape.net wrote: AFAIK The 8331 guys have to stick together.  When Chevrolet announced 
no more parts for the ZR1 everything suddenly disappeared.  I suppose 
the guys who can afford that car can also afford the parts?  It must be 
really tough if you're not a resident of the US.

I have to think the wise answer is to move on to the next generation of 
engine control hardware, at least for us.  The later pcm's have more of 
everything... but we really aren't using them.  Why?  Same old story.  
Not enough info about the code, not enough tools to work with them.

It's really, really too bad that GM / Delco / Delphi never saw fit to 
release a reasonably priced aftermarket ecm.  Even an "offroad only" 
limited function code for a specific OBDII pcm would have been nice.

Zaphod

-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Hess 
To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
Sent: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 13:25:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic

   Wow, I did not know that.  I can't imagine going through a 4 layer 
board, and
worse, trying to figure out what IC does what.

Who would you suggest I request information from?  Delphi?  Who built 
their
early 90's OBDI ECM's?

As sort of an aside, GM stopped making/supporting the 1228331 ECM found 
on ZR1
vettes and the turbo lotus.  There was another part # that superceeded 
it, but I
believe it too had been discontinued.  What are those people to do?  
They don't
exist in junkyards (I've looked), and there's *one* on ebay for nearly 
$600.  If
GM doesn't release the schematic for it, wouldn't they be out of luck?

This secretive environment is just terrible.  These things are 
approaching 15-20
years old now.



davesnothereman at netscape.net wrote: Ryan Hess  wrote:

>
>Question: how have ECM schematics been acquired in the past? ???the
>7730/49 on ludis' site, etc?
Old fashioned reverse engineering.

>I'm in contact with an ECM remanufacturer, who
>presumably has a great deal of knowledge locked away somewhere. ???The
>question is, how do I coerce it out of them? ???

Maybe you should request information as an ecm remanufacturer?  There 
are a few
rebuilders, they must have obtained information in some way.
I'm specifically looking
>for a schematic of a '2240.
>
>
>I have to assume this is like the TV repair business, where the mfr
>charges a fee for access to their schematics..

They may not release schematics at all.  GM is a provider of rebuilt 
ecm's.
They have no need to support the business of repairing and rebuilding 
computers.

I know that it's easier to pull a hen's teeth than obtain Delco service
information for audio products, even those which are 15 years old.  And 
once you
get service info, finding parts is even tougher.

Zaphod



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From andrewsharyn at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 10 15:50:00 2006
From: andrewsharyn at yahoo.com (Andrew Gibson)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 13:50:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Gmecm] Re: Big cap HEI on 7747
Message-ID: <20060610205000.25887.qmail@web60823.mail.yahoo.com>

>I'm going to add to this.  That second image isn't the whole 
>story, because there is no flat horizontal line at left except 
>when the shaft first starts turning.  More importantly, the 
>waveform is balanced above and below ground, or + and 
>- portions if you like.  The very sharp edge occurs when the 
>magnetic field stops building, and starts declining; that 
>is about as the pole pieces are closest.  This always 
>occurs the same spot, though velocity may change the 
>amplitude and period of the waveform.  

  You nailed it there Bruce. I had to "borrow" some pics from the net 
  since this is a text only mailing list. And I couldn't find the exact one I wanted.
   
  >The module senses the crossing of voltage from one 
>polarity to the other; the voltage it switches at is zero, position 
>of which is not affected by amplitude.The module is supposed 
>to fire on the very rapid transition, which will be very accurate.  
>If the wires are reversed, the module will fire on the very slow 
>changing part of the waveform crossing zero, which is way off 
>in time and not so accurate.  My recollection is that proper 
>firing is on the negative edge (relative to ground).  

  Sort of. It doesn't look for the voltage transistion. It's looking for a threshold volatge.
  If you manage to get your hands of a schematic of the insides of a gm hei
  module (4 or 7 pin doesn't matter) the system is controlled by a transistor. For those 
  who don't know transistors are a voltage gate controlled by a lower voltage. They can 
  either be positively or negatively controlled. In the case of the module they are positive 
  controlled. To open they need a minimum threshold voltage applied to the gate. This 
  voltage varies from transistor to transistor. Transistors don't care about opposing 
  voltage applied. (aka: the bottom half of the scope pattern)
   
  Knowing this the hei module is looking for a trigger voltage. Since the pickup produces 
  about 800-900mv it could be anywhere up to about 700 mv. Although it is more likely 
  about 250mv. When the input signal reaches the trigger voltage the transistor is 
  activated, signal strengthened (amplified), run through a flip flop circuit and the coil is 
  turned of which then makes spark. The vertical line in the signal is always centered so 
  it is ideal for that control.
   
  If you wire the pickup backwards, the module is still looking for the positive trigger 
  voltage. Since it will now be on the slope of the pattern and the slope is always 
  moving due to production defects, magnetic field variences, temperature, etc.  timing 
  become uncontrollable.
   
  So yes to Robin, the polarity of the pickup coil is vital to the operation of a GM efi 
  system with distributor. It's pretty darn important on the carburated ones too.
   

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From aoturneriii at tds.net  Sat Jun 10 16:29:29 2006
From: aoturneriii at tds.net (Arby)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:29:29 -0400
Subject: Fw: [Gmecm] 1227747 Questions
Message-ID: <00dc01c68cd4$f69604e0$0300a8c0@NATALIE>

Could someone please bite on these questions?  There probably silly but I'm 
stuck in a rut and I could use some expert help.  It will be greatly 
appreciated.


What is an ADU error, code 55, on a 747 computer?  Is it possible to damage 
the computer by firing 454 injectors only using 2 outputs instead of all 4? 
Also, is it common to have frequent breaks in the DataStream when trying to 
datalog the 747 using WINALDL?

Thank you,
Arby
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From 0708431308 at telia.com  Sat Jun 10 16:59:38 2006
From: 0708431308 at telia.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Christian_m=F6ller?=)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 23:59:38 +0200
Subject: SV: [Gmecm] 1227747 Questions
In-Reply-To: <00dc01c68cd4$f69604e0$0300a8c0@NATALIE>
Message-ID: <000601c68cd9$2b249f10$6401a8c0@HP>

Hello Arby!I have used 7747 and 454 injectors for two years and do not have
any problems.
The pins are connected to the same spot inside the computor.
By the way...i tryed to rise two steps in IAC PARK AND NEUTRAL OFFSET,much
better but when i drive away(touch the trottle)it stops.Is there any other
parameters to work with?
Christian

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Fr?n: gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:gmecm-bounces at diy-efi.org] F?r Arby
Skickat: Saturday, June 10, 2006 11:29 PM
Till: gmecm at diy-efi.org
?mne: Fw: [Gmecm] 1227747 Questions

Could someone please bite on these questions?  There probably silly but I'm 
stuck in a rut and I could use some expert help.  It will be greatly 
appreciated.


What is an ADU error, code 55, on a 747 computer?  Is it possible to damage 
the computer by firing 454 injectors only using 2 outputs instead of all 4? 
Also, is it common to have frequent breaks in the DataStream when trying to 
datalog the 747 using WINALDL?

Thank you,
Arby
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From ttownsley at sprynet.com  Sat Jun 10 18:59:12 2006
From: ttownsley at sprynet.com (Tyler Townsley)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:59:12 -0400
Subject: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
In-Reply-To: <20060610175801.17216.qmail@web35911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060610175801.17216.qmail@web35911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <448B5CD0.4080202@sprynet.com>

You can still get a rebuilt zr1 ecm with your core(all years have been 
superceeded with one number, just use your year specific eprom). So 
someone out there has the spects as it not GM doing the work. There is a 
complete hac for the 90-91 calibration. A 90 zr1 is a steal right now. 
Parts and info is avaiable on the zr1 net and corvette forums.

Tyler

Ryan Hess wrote:

>Lets try this again...  my first message bounced from the mail server.
>
>I may have acquired an 8331.  Anybody wanna see what's inside?  :D  
>Anybody want anything specific done?  I was thinking about taking high res 
>pics, and putting them up on the DIY-EFI ftp or something.  Don't know 
>how, but I don't have it yet...  I'm trying to get the wiring diagram 
>as well.
>
>in re: the OBDII...  All we really need is someone to leak the source 
>code for one. 
>
>Ryan
>
>davesnot
>
>
>davesnothereman at netscape.net wrote: AFAIK The 8331 guys have to stick together.  When Chevrolet announced 
>no more parts for the ZR1 everything suddenly disappeared.  I suppose 
>the guys who can afford that car can also afford the parts?  It must be 
>really tough if you're not a resident of the US.
>
>I have to think the wise answer is to move on to the next generation of 
>engine control hardware, at least for us.  The later pcm's have more of 
>everything... but we really aren't using them.  Why?  Same old story.  
>Not enough info about the code, not enough tools to work with them.
>
>It's really, really too bad that GM / Delco / Delphi never saw fit to 
>release a reasonably priced aftermarket ecm.  Even an "offroad only" 
>limited function code for a specific OBDII pcm would have been nice.
>
>Zaphod
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ryan Hess 
>To: gmecm at diy-efi.org
>Sent: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 13:25:19 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: RE: [Gmecm] Acquiring ECM schematic
>
>   Wow, I did not know that.  I can't imagine going through a 4 layer 
>board, and
>worse, trying to figure out what IC does what.
>
>Who would you suggest I request information from?  Delphi?  Who built 
>their
>early 90's OBDI ECM's?
>
>As sort of an aside, GM stopped making/supporting the 1228331 ECM found 
>on ZR1
>vettes and the turbo lotus.  There was another part # that superceeded 
>it, but I
>believe it too had been discontinued.  What are those people to do?  
>They don't
>exist in junkyards (I've looked), and there's *one* on ebay for nearly 
>$600.  If
>GM doesn't release the schematic for it, wouldn't they be out of luck?
>
>This secretive environment is just terrible.  These things are 
>approaching 15-20
>years old now.
>
>
>
>davesnothereman at netscape.net wrote: Ryan Hess  wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Question: how have ECM schematics been acquired in the past? ???the
>>7730/49 on ludis' site, etc?
>>    
>>
>Old fashioned reverse engineering.
>
>  
>
>>I'm in contact with an ECM remanufacturer, who
>>presumably has a