Remove me from this list please
Patrick Anglum
panglum at nortelnetworks.com
Tue Dec 7 15:49:27 GMT 1999
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
------_=_NextPart_001_01BF40C8.7A8073FE
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Patrick Anglum
Passport 4400 Development
4100 Guardian Street M/S NE
Simi Valley, CA 93063-3397
panglum at nortelnetworks.com
> % (805) 577-2288
> % ESN 495-2288
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> [SMTP:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 2:00 AM
> To: DIY_EFI-Digest at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #680
>
>
> DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, December 7 1999 Volume 04 : Number
> 680
>
>
>
> In this issue:
>
> Insane MR2 project?
> Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #679
> Re: Getting facts straight! (3/3)
>
> See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the
> DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:28:58 +1300
> From: "Nicholas Parker" <NRPARKER at XTRA.CO.NZ>
> Subject: Insane MR2 project?
>
> Hello,
> what is the e-mail address of the the person modifying the
> supercharged MR2?
> I own a 1987 Supercharged MR2 with a few mods, and am also part way
> through
> making my own fuel and ignition ecu based on an 80552 chip and coded in
> assembler, but I'm moving to a 9x faster DSS87c550
> mpu, and may re-write the code in C. My rpm,sampling, fuel, ign loop
> calculating loop already runs at about 200Hz @11.06MHz on the '552 but
> more
> power means 3d smoothing/interpolation calc for fuel and ignition maps.
> I'd
> like to hear from you.
>
> Nick Parker.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:37:08 -0800
> From: "John Dammeyer" <johnd at autoartisans.com>
> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #679
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> I haven't seen any specification information that states what the maximum
> ON
> time is for an injector before damage occurs and this is the data that
> actually
> determines the extreme end of the duty cycle in the terms of maxium on
> time.
> After all, if the duty cycle were restricted to one turn of an engine
> then at
> 600RPM I have, with 80% duty cycle, a possible pulse width of 80ms which
> is far
> higher than the 12.8ms that I am currently restricting my injector too.
>
> Now I realize that's a bit overstated but I understood that the 80% rate
> is to
> avoid two things:
>
> 1. Injector overheating.
>
> 2. Injector float due to signal removal and re-application at a rate
> faster than
> the voltage can decay in the coil due to coil inductance. The injector
> then
> positions itself at an indeterminate state because the energy never really
> leaves the coil before the next application of voltage. This is one of
> the
> places where Peak/Hold injectors are far superior to Saturated.
>
> Please _do_ post a copy of the injector data sheets that state the maximum
> on
> time of an injector before damage will occur.
>
> As an aside, to add my own urban legend, I've run the Honda injectors
> for more
> than an hour at 6600RPM (without fuel) in the open air using a 12.8ms
> pulse rate
> and 73% duty cycle. At the end of an hour the injectors are certainly hot
> to
> touch but not so hot as to burn and certainly not as hot as I would assume
> the
> area above the intake valve is on an engine at 6600RPM. I have't tried
> running
> them with fuel for an hour but I would imagine that they would run cooler.
>
> The stumble only occurs when the throttle is snapped open as fast as
> possible.
> Normally on aircraft this isn't a good idea but on a hovercraft I could
> see some
> yahoo doing this. When the stumble occurs the O2 sensor goes off the
> scale in
> the lean direction so I assume that I should probably make the maxium
> pulse
> width RPM dependant so if the throttle is snapped open at idle, like an
> accelerator pump, I should give the injector a 40ms pulse (80% duty cycle
> at
> 1200RPM) or so every engine revolution.
>
> BTW, I'm also running sequential injection (not bank fire), so in fact at
> low
> RPM I'm firing an injector every 180 crank degrees. You could balance a
> coin on
> the engine it idles so smoothly.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
>
>
>
> >Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 03:12:56 +1100
> >From: Phil Lamovie <phil at injec.com>
> >Subject: Re: cycles
> >
> >Hi John et al,
> >
> >
> >...but an engine cycle is 720 degrees and therefore, at 7000RPM, with
> >an 80% duty cycle the max pw is 13.7ms.
> >
> >Yes John your quite right a 4 stroke IC engine has a working cycle
> >that
> >encompasses 720 degrees of crank. On the other hand an Injector is
> >not any IC engine and has a duty cycle that is of one revolution only.
> >
> >This does of course give rise to the question... are you only
> >injecting every second revolution of the engine ? If so that may
> >establish part of the reason for the stumble you are experiencing.
> >
> >Phil
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: 07 Dec 99 22:26:17 +1200
> From: "Tom Parker" <parkert at ihug.co.nz>
> Subject: Re: Getting facts straight! (3/3)
>
> Greg Hermann <bearbvd at cmn.net> wrote:
>
> >So--what are we left with that is magical about stoich? The facts that a
> >stoich mixture is the point where a three way catalyst works best for
> >cleaning up tailpipe emissions and that it is also the point where a
> >standard EGO or HEGO exhaust oxygen sensor (as opposed to a UEGO WBO2
> >sensor) switches its output. Period.
>
> So do the EGO sensors work at stoich because they were designed to work at
> this ratio, or is there something intrinsic about their operation and the
> conditions at stoich that causes this?
>
> I guess the OEM's wouldn't be using them if they didn't work at stoich, so
> it
> doesn't really matter if it is easy to make them this way or not. A better
> question would be are they cheaper than the wide band sensors because they
> are
> easy to make, or because they are used on so many cars?
>
> - --
> Tom Parker - parkert at ihug.co.nz
> - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #680
> *****************************
>
> To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command:
>
> subscribe diy_efi-digest
>
> in the body of a message to "Majordomo at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu".
>
> A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
> subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command
> above with "diy_efi".
>
------_=_NextPart_001_01BF40C8.7A8073FE
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2448.0">
<TITLE>Remove me from this list please</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D6 FACE=3D"Brush Script MT">Patrick =
Anglum</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Passport 4400 Development</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">4100 Guardian Street M/S =
NE</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Simi Valley, CA 93063-3397</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">panglum at nortelnetworks.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#808080" FACE=3D"Monotype Sorts">%</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> (805) 577-2288 </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#808080" FACE=3D"Monotype Sorts">%</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> ESN 495-2288</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From: </FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu =
[SMTP:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent: </FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Tuesday, December 07, 1999 2:00 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To: </FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">DIY_EFI-Digest at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: </FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">DIY_EFI Digest V4 #680</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">DIY_EFI =
Digest Tuesday, December 7 =
1999 Volume 04 : Number =
680</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In this issue:</FONT>
</P>
<P> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Insane MR2 project?</FONT>
<BR> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #679</FONT>
<BR> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Re: Getting facts straight! (3/3)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">See the end of the digest for =
information on subscribing to the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing =
lists.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">---------------------------------------------------------=
-------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:28:58 =
+1300</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From: "Nicholas Parker" =
<NRPARKER at XTRA.CO.NZ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: Insane MR2 project?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hello,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"> &nb=
sp; what is the e-mail address of the the person modifying the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">supercharged MR2?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I own a 1987 Supercharged MR2 with a =
few mods, and am also part way through</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">making my own fuel and ignition ecu =
based on an 80552 chip and coded in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">assembler, but I'm moving to a 9x =
faster DSS87c550</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">mpu, and may re-write the code in C. =
My rpm,sampling, fuel, ign loop</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">calculating loop already runs at =
about 200Hz @11.06MHz on the '552 but more</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">power means 3d =
smoothing/interpolation calc for fuel and ignition maps. =
I'd</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">like to hear from you.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Nick Parker.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:37:08 =
-0800</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From: "John Dammeyer" =
<johnd at autoartisans.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 =
#679</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Phil,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I haven't seen any specification =
information that states what the maximum ON</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">time is for an injector before damage =
occurs and this is the data that actually</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">determines the extreme end of the =
duty cycle in the terms of maxium on time.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">After all, if the duty cycle =
were restricted to one turn of an engine then at</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">600RPM I have, with 80% duty =
cycle, a possible pulse width of 80ms which is far</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">higher than the 12.8ms that I am =
currently restricting my injector too.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Now I realize that's a bit overstated =
but I understood that the 80% rate is to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">avoid two things:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">1. Injector overheating.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">2. Injector float due to signal =
removal and re-application at a rate faster than</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the voltage can decay in the coil due =
to coil inductance. The injector then</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">positions itself at an indeterminate =
state because the energy never really</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">leaves the coil before the next =
application of voltage. This is one of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">places where Peak/Hold injectors are =
far superior to Saturated.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Please _do_ post a copy of the =
injector data sheets that state the maximum on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">time of an injector before damage =
will occur.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As an aside, to add my own urban =
legend, I've run the Honda injectors for more</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">than an hour at 6600RPM (without =
fuel) in the open air using a 12.8ms pulse rate</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">and 73% duty cycle. At the end =
of an hour the injectors are certainly hot to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">touch but not so hot as to burn and =
certainly not as hot as I would assume the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">area above the intake valve is on an =
engine at 6600RPM. I have't tried running</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">them with fuel for an hour but I =
would imagine that they would run cooler.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The stumble only occurs when the =
throttle is snapped open as fast as possible.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Normally on aircraft this isn't a =
good idea but on a hovercraft I could see some</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">yahoo doing this. When the =
stumble occurs the O2 sensor goes off the scale in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the lean direction so I assume that I =
should probably make the maxium pulse</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">width RPM dependant so if the =
throttle is snapped open at idle, like an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">accelerator pump, I should give the =
injector a 40ms pulse (80% duty cycle at</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">1200RPM) or so every engine =
revolution.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">BTW, I'm also running sequential =
injection (not bank fire), so in fact at low</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">RPM I'm firing an injector every 180 =
crank degrees. You could balance a coin on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the engine it idles so =
smoothly.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">John</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 03:12:56 =
+1100</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>From: Phil Lamovie =
<phil at injec.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>Subject: Re: cycles</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>Hi John et al,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>...but an engine cycle is 720 =
degrees and therefore, at 7000RPM, with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>an 80% duty cycle the max pw is =
13.7ms.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>Yes John your quite right a 4 =
stroke IC engine has a working cycle</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>encompasses 720 degrees of crank. =
On the other hand an Injector is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>not any IC engine and has a duty =
cycle that is of one revolution only.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>This does of course give rise to =
the question... are you only</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>injecting every second revolution =
of the engine ? If so that may</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>establish part of the reason for =
the stumble you are experiencing.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>Phil</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Date: 07 Dec 99 22:26:17 +1200</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From: "Tom Parker" =
<parkert at ihug.co.nz></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: Re: Getting facts straight! =
(3/3)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Greg Hermann <bearbvd at cmn.net> =
wrote:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>So--what are we left with that is =
magical about stoich? The facts that a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>stoich mixture is the point where =
a three way catalyst works best for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>cleaning up tailpipe emissions =
and that it is also the point where a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>standard EGO or HEGO exhaust =
oxygen sensor (as opposed to a UEGO WBO2</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">>sensor) switches its output. =
Period.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">So do the EGO sensors work at stoich =
because they were designed to work at</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">this ratio, or is there something =
intrinsic about their operation and the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">conditions at stoich that causes =
this?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I guess the OEM's wouldn't be using =
them if they didn't work at stoich, so it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">doesn't really matter if it is easy =
to make them this way or not. A better</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">question would be are they cheaper =
than the wide band sensors because they are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">easy to make, or because they are =
used on so many cars?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">- --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Tom Parker - =
parkert at ihug.co.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"> &nb=
sp; -</FONT><U> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/</A></FO=
NT></U>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">------------------------------</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #680</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">*****************************</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send =
the command:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> subscribe =
diy_efi-digest</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">in the body of a message to =
"Majordomo at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A non-digest (direct mail) version of =
this list is also available; to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">subscribe to that instead, replace =
"diy_efi-digest" in the command</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> above with =
"diy_efi".</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01BF40C8.7A8073FE--
More information about the Diy_efi
mailing list