DIY_EFI Digest V5 #913

[Charles]

Please take me off the list, your instructions don't work.
(Fifth request).

On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 01:00:21 -0800, you wrote:


>In this issue:
>
>	Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>	Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>	Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>	Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>	RE: O2 sensor pullup resistor values?
>	RE: O2 sensor pullup resistor values? (longish)
>	Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>	Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>	RE: Audi R8
>	RE: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>	RE: Flame on
>
>See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the 
>DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:25:39 +0800 (WST)
From: Bernd Felsche <bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>
>Bruce tapped away at the keyboard with:
>> From: "Kevin _" <kiggly at hotmail.com>
>
>>> And when you're making a high rpm engine you keep the valves
>>> unseated for over 300 cranshaft degrees.  Usually about 250 to
>>> 260 degrees for 0.050" valve lift or more.  The more/less air
>>> being packed at a certain time during the intake stroke is no
>>> different at all for a turbo or non-turbo engine.  The only
>>> thing you design slightly differently for a turbo is the speed
>>> of sound is higher because the intake air temp is higher in a
>>> turbo application.  Thus, you need slightly longer runners for
>>> the same Helmholtz rpm, but its nearly inconsequential.
>
>> Higher rpm, OK, how high are you talking about.  The thread
>> started with street cars, are you still working the street or
>> moving into the race field I'd hardly call 250d at .050 as a
>> street engine.
>
>Depends on number of cylinders and method of induction.
>My 4-cylinder car's NA with 270 degrees and more than 10mm lift.
>It's only a bit lumpy at idle.
>
>>>>If atmospheric pressure doubled, I don't think it will make an
>>>>appreciable difference in the way an intake manifold worked.  The
>>>>whole question still seems inconsequential to me, since by tuning
>>>>an intake you are trying to increase intake air pressure by a
>>>>small number of pascals.
>
>>> Have you ever datalogged and seen pressure pulses at the back of
>>> a valve?  When its all tuned right with the proper sized runners
>>> it can be over 20% beyond atmospheric pressure during valve
>>> closing.  We're certainly not talking single Pascals here.
>
>> At the back of the valve, OK, and how fast does that decay as you
>> move back from there?
>
>Doesn't matter. It's the pressure at the back of the valve that acts
>to fill the cylinder.
>
>>> BTW - Bruce said he was looking for 'new' stuff in engines.
>>> Check out F1 stuff before you call everything old and pushrods
>>> good.  Approximately 300hp/liter naturally aspirated on gasoline
>>> (yes, I do use that term loosely) and revving to near 20k rpm
>>> isn't trivial.
>
>> To whom?
>> I haven't seen any of that wizz bang technology filtering to
>> anything on the street yet.  They still have reached any level of
>> performance that can't be done with engines that would have
>> transferable technology to the street.  The rules in F1 are just a
>> game anymore to see who can spend the most for something that can
>> win.
>
>Same in all motorsports.
>
>If you want to see how much of that technology is filtering down
>into production cars, I suggest you browse through SAE's Automotive
>Engineering magazine occasionally.
>
>Cars built on space-frame: yes - FIAT and Audi
>Multi-valve engines with variable manifolds: yes - most manufacturers
>Dierect gasoline injection: yes - Toyota, VW-Audi, Mitsubishi
>Turbo-multivalve engines: yes - Volvo, VW-Audi, Subaru, etc.
>Independent cylinder throttling: yes - BMW (3 series and 7-series)
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 00:30:42 -0500
From: "Bruce" <nacelp at bright.net>
>Subject: Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>
From: "Bernd Felsche" <bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>> Bruce tapped away at the keyboard with:
>> > From: "Bernd Felsche" <bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au>
>> > Subject: Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>> > > Bruce tapped away at the keyboard with:
>> > > > Marketing.
>> > > > The best performing Reasonably priced car in the world today still
>> > > > uses an OHV engine.
>> > > Depends on what you call reasonably priced. What's a reasonable
>> > > price for a car capable of speeds close to 400kmh and still
>> > > driveable around town?
>
>> > 400 kmh is approachable on how many streets?.
>> Two or three at certain times.
>> > 240 MPH, OK what even streetable car can do that?.
>> Bugatti Veyron. You got the $2 million? Bugatti's taking orders.
>
>Again your so far out on a limb as to be talking in abstracts.
>
>
>> High-end production Porsches can exceed 320kmh at less than half of
>> that price.
>> > Try not rewording the question and the answer is rather obvious.
>> > > > Most of the turbo'd engines in production cars are based on
>> > > > bits the manufacturer has laying around.   The only reason for
>> > > > multi-valves etc., is due to rules, in the street world it's
>> > > > the EPA, in racing it's displacement.
>> > > Ahhh... unlimited fuel available?
>
>Unlimited as in what you can buy at the pump (remember STREET CAR)
>
>> > So far the legislating branches of the above set the standards for
>> > fuel, so you question is mute.
>> You mean "moot", don't you?
>
>No.
>
>> The more fuel you use, the more you have to carry, or stop
>> more frequently to refuel. Both of those are penalties.
>> Do you realize why Audi won the 24 hour Le Mans?
>
>Do you realize LeMans Audi cars aren't street cars!.
>
>> Because they were more fuel-efficient, saving a fuel stop and their
>> direct fuel injection also gave them more torque over a wider range
>> of engine speeds.
>
>And we'll all run over to an Audi dealership and buy these exact bits to be
>able to use on the street cars were working with.
>    By the way how close to 400 KmH does your car run?.
>Bruce
>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 00:38:07 -0500
From: "Bruce" <nacelp at bright.net>
>Subject: Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>
From: "Bernd Felsche" <bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>> Bernd Felsche tapped away at the keyboard with:
>> > Bruce tapped away at the keyboard with:
>> > > From: "Bernd Felsche" <bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au>
>> > > Subject: Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>> > > > Bruce tapped away at the keyboard with:
>> > > > > Marketing.
>> > > > > The best performing Reasonably priced car in the world today still
>> > > > > uses an OHV engine.
>> > > > Depends on what you call reasonably priced. What's a reasonable
>> > > > price for a car capable of speeds close to 400kmh and still
>> > > > driveable around town?
>> > > 400 kmh is approachable on how many streets?.
>> > Two or three at certain times.
>> > > 240 MPH, OK what even streetable car can do that?.
>> > Bugatti Veyron. You got the $2 million? Bugatti's taking orders.
>
>> OOPS... shocking cockup.... it's less than US$1 million... (I was
>> thinking in Aussie dollars) One million Euro is the price announced
>> to the Veyron EB 16.4 with the less-powerful 1001 bhp (736 kW)
>> engine.
>> Its W-16 engine consists of two very narrow eight-cylinder banks.
>> With four turbochargers, this 7993cc gasoline direct injection
>> engine has a maximum torque of 1250 Nm between 2200 and 5500 rpm.
>> Top speed is 404 kmh (251 mph).
>> The technology is very similar to that proven at Le Mans by Audi.
>> Production starts in 2003. Bugatti expect to sell between 300 and
>> 500 of them a year.
>
>So how many of these are you or your frineds buying.
>300-500 is what, an afternoons work load for a major manufacturer of STREET
>cars
>
>> A 1200bhp version has been pre-announced.
>
>Pre-announced = commerical maybeware?.
>
>Yep, I firmly stuck on reality,
>Bruce
>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 00:46:23 -0500
From: "Bruce" <nacelp at bright.net>
>Subject: Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>
From: "Bernd Felsche" <bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>> Bruce tapped away at the keyboard with:
>> > From: "Kevin _" <kiggly at hotmail.com>
>> >> And when you're making a high rpm engine you keep the valves
>> >> unseated for over 300 cranshaft degrees.  Usually about 250 to
>> >> 260 degrees for 0.050" valve lift or more.  The more/less air
>> >> being packed at a certain time during the intake stroke is no
>> >> different at all for a turbo or non-turbo engine.  The only
>> >> thing you design slightly differently for a turbo is the speed
>> >> of sound is higher because the intake air temp is higher in a
>> >> turbo application.  Thus, you need slightly longer runners for
>> >> the same Helmholtz rpm, but its nearly inconsequential.
>> > Higher rpm, OK, how high are you talking about.  The thread
>> > started with street cars, are you still working the street or
>> > moving into the race field I'd hardly call 250d at .050 as a
>> > street engine.
>
>> Depends on number of cylinders and method of induction.
>> My 4-cylinder car's NA with 270 degrees and more than 10mm lift.
>> It's only a bit lumpy at idle.
>
>270d @ .050 clearance?
>270 @ .005 maybe.
>
>> >>>If atmospheric pressure doubled, I don't think it will make an
>> >>>appreciable difference in the way an intake manifold worked.  The
>> >>>whole question still seems inconsequential to me, since by tuning
>> >>>an intake you are trying to increase intake air pressure by a
>> >>>small number of pascals.
>> >> Have you ever datalogged and seen pressure pulses at the back of
>> >> a valve?  When its all tuned right with the proper sized runners
>> >> it can be over 20% beyond atmospheric pressure during valve
>> >> closing.  We're certainly not talking single Pascals here.
>> > At the back of the valve, OK, and how fast does that decay as you
>> > move back from there?
>> Doesn't matter. It's the pressure at the back of the valve that acts
>> to fill the cylinder.
>> >> BTW - Bruce said he was looking for 'new' stuff in engines.
>> >> Check out F1 stuff before you call everything old and pushrods
>> >> good.  Approximately 300hp/liter naturally aspirated on gasoline
>> >> (yes, I do use that term loosely) and revving to near 20k rpm
>> >> isn't trivial.
>> > To whom?
>> > I haven't seen any of that wizz bang technology filtering to
>> > anything on the street yet.  They still have reached any level of
>> > performance that can't be done with engines that would have
>> > transferable technology to the street.  The rules in F1 are just a
>> > game anymore to see who can spend the most for something that can
>> > win.
>
>> Same in all motorsports.
>
>So we're again going off on tangents.
>
>> If you want to see how much of that technology is filtering down
>> into production cars, I suggest you browse through SAE's Automotive
>> Engineering magazine occasionally.
>
>> Cars built on space-frame: yes - FIAT and Audi
>> Multi-valve engines with variable manifolds: yes - most manufacturers
>> Dierect gasoline injection: yes - Toyota, VW-Audi, Mitsubishi
>> Turbo-multivalve engines: yes - Volvo, VW-Audi, Subaru, etc.
>> Independent cylinder throttling: yes - BMW (3 series and 7-series)
>
>We were talking engine technology.
>F1 didn't discover multi valves.
>Direct injection has been used for years in IH tractors, and the 300SL did
>also.
>2 models of one manufacurer, OK, but big deal
>Bruce
>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 00:53:25 -0500
From: "Peter Florance" <audserv at exis.net>
>Subject: RE: O2 sensor pullup resistor values?
>
>I guess I wanted to simulate sampling front and rear cylinder as if I had a
>single sensor on all 6 cylinders instead of one sensor on 3 cylinders.
>Crazy?
>
>Peter
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
>> Behalf Of bcroe at juno.com
>> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 12:40 AM
>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subject: O2 sensor pullup resistor values?
>>
>>
>> A couple of op amp voltage followers could drive a
>> pair of resistors to a summing point.  But I wonder
>> what you want to do with the result?  A narrow band
>> sensor is not operating in the linear region, and
>> summing 2 nonlinear signals is not that meaningful.
>>
>> The result would mean a lot more from a Wide Band
>> sensor.  An ECU would not be set up to process a
>> summed signal.  Putting a pair of WB bar graph
>> displays side by side could be useful, I plan to do
>> this soon.
>>
>> Bruce Roe
>>
>> On Wed, 5 Dec 2001 19:55:12 -0500 "Peter Florance" <audserv at exis.net>
>> writes:
>> > Anyone have any idea of typical ECU pullup resistor (to ~ .45V)
>> > values for
>> > O2 sensors inputs? I'm trying to make a analog
>> > circuit to average 2 sensors for my L-jet box and
>> > would like to incorporate it in the front end of the
>> > buffers.
>> > Also interested in any comments regarding
>> > averaging O2 sensors for dual exhaust systems
>> > and idle performance (in line 6 engine)
>> > Thanks in advance
>> >
>> > Peter Florance
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>> To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without
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>>
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 00:53:23 -0500
From: "Peter Florance" <audserv at exis.net>
>Subject: RE: O2 sensor pullup resistor values? (longish)
>
>Yes as I tried to say below, I found that my Ljet ecu supplies .45 volts at
>the input when the sensor is disconnected or cold. I guess I could reverse
>engineer it by loading the ECU input with resistors to determine the value
>(I'll start with 1.2 meg - thanks Ludis) to see what the resistance works
>out to.  That seems pretty safe as the bias would be a max of .375 uA.  I
>opened an extra box but the trace from the pin lead to a hybrid with a cover
>riveted to the board. I didn't need to know that badly.....
>
>AFA averaging, I'm fighting a poor mixture control at idle. I have a sensor
>in each down pipe which connect to 3 of in-line cylinders. This a euro car I
>converted to lambda and then added a Bosch heated sensor last weekend which
>works no better than the un heated (either which can only sample 3 cylinders
>currently). The US cars have 6 into 1 manifold (BMW 528i) with single
>unheated sensor. My feeling after watching with a scope was there was some
>problem with out fast the lambda worked at idle vs. the frequency of the
>exhaust pulses of only 3 cylinders. The idle is rough and smells rich.
>My thought was to average the sensor with simple linear circuit but I
>realize I may be limiting the swing of the output.
>
>
>Eventually it will be a Megasquirt but I'll still have to solve the problem
>(or maybe the MS will work better as it may sample faster at idle if that's
>the problem).
>
>Peter Florance
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
>> Behalf Of Bernd Felsche
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:39 PM
>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subject: Re: O2 sensor pullup resistor values?
>>
>>
>> Peter Florance tapped away at the keyboard with:
>>
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > Behalf Of Bernd Felsche
>>
>> > > Peter Florance tapped away at the keyboard with:
>> > > > Anyone have any idea of typical ECU pullup resistor (to ~ .45V)
>> > > > values for O2 sensors inputs? I'm trying to make a analog circuit
>> > > > to average 2 sensors for my L-jet box and would like to
>> > > > incorporate it in the front end of the buffers.
>> > >
>> > > The "pullup resistors" would be infinite. The sensor is a voltage
>> > > cell; it provides a voltage. Attempting to bias the sensor can cause
>> > > damage to the sensor. If you want to level-shift or add/average two
>> > > sensor inputs, the easiest solution is to use op amps to perform the
>> > > task. Their high input impedance ensures minimum current draw and
>> > > sustained operation.
>> > >
>> > > > Also interested in any comments regarding averaging O2 sensors for
>> > > > dual exhaust systems and idle performance (in line 6 engine)
>> > >
>> > > Before you go and build a simple adder circuit however, look at the
>> > > response curves and the consequences of what will happen if one is
>> > > receiving rich and the other a lean mixture. The ECU needs then to
>> > > see a constant switching between the levels for correct operation.
>>
>> > On my L jet box there is some sort of 'bias' that provides .45
>> > volts at the sensor input before the sensor warms up or if it
>> > disconnected. I've read that's how they sense whether the sensor
>> > is working or not.  How do they accomplish that?
>>
>> Probably on the output of the buffer amplifier, internal to the box.
>> The sensor's output voltage rises from 0V when it heats up; that
>> transition may be used to switch off the bias.
>>
>> You can check this by measuring the open-circuit voltage at the
>> ECU connector, with the lambda disconnected.
>>
>> The sensor can only source a few micro amps. Trying to run a sizeable
>> current through it, which is essential to bias the output directly,
>> will destroy the sensor.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 01:11:34 -0500
From: Alvaro Gil <242Turbo at alvarogil.com>
>Subject: Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>
>>
>>
>>  > 240 MPH, OK what even streetable car can do that?.
>
>Fuck that, the only car I know that would even come close is the 
>McLaren F1.  A crappy twin turbo or well designed supercharged home 
>built C5 Corvette could prob get there too.  But you would need at 
>least a 383 stroker and some crazy boost.  And would have to change 
>the gear ratios.  Any large displacement modern automobile could be 
>tweaked into coming at least near 240 MPH.  Of course it would take 
>some serious cash and lots stupidity.  Why would anyone want to go 
>240 fucking MPH.  Fucking death wish?
>- -- 
>____________________________________________
>Alvaro Gil		  
>http://www.AlvaroGil.com
>'84 Volvo 242 Turbo (Silver) 13 psi
>'97 Leopard Gecko (White, Yellow, Black)
>NJIT Mechanical Engineering Student
>____________________________________________
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 02:28:14 -0500
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen at grolen.com>
>Subject: Re: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>
>Bernd Felsche wrote:
>
>> 
>> > 240 MPH, OK what even streetable car can do that?.
>> 
>> Bugatti Veyron. You got the $2 million? Bugatti's taking orders.
>> 
>> High-end production Porsches can exceed 320kmh at less than half of
>> that price.
>
>What are you, on freaking drugs?
>For that kind of money, damn near anybody could build a car willing to do that
>speed.  Go ahead and stretch the definitions beyond reasonable. 
>
>Street car my arse.  Ok, 200mph, no problem.  Last year's nascar cars are for
>sale.  Check out the silver state classic, that's where the average joe gets to
>run 'em.  So it's on a street, and it's a car, so makes it a street car?  Ya,
>ok.  And compared to the Porch it's cheap enough that we can buy a case of beer
>and a small motel for the after race celebration.
>
>Send those happy pills over here.  I'd like to see what color the sky really is
>in your world.
>
>> Production starts in 2003. Bugatti expect to sell between 300 and
>> 500 of them a year.
>
>At 300 models per year, the Bugatti hardly qualifies as a production vehicle,
>let alone a street car.  Bicycle factories produce more units than that.
>
> 
>> A 1200bhp version has been pre-announced.
>Yes, and I read about that car 3 years ago.  It was a promised item then. 
>
>
>> > 400 kmh is approachable on how many streets?.
>
>> Two or three at certain times.
>
>OMG! LMAO!
>So... kinda pointless, no?
>
>> > What's a reasonable
>> > price for a car capable of speeds close to 400kmh and still
>> > driveable around town?
>
>$150k US dollars for the "Buy it, don't build it" crowd.  
>
>They'll never drive that fast anyway.
>
>Shannen
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:54:04 +0200 
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com
>Subject: RE: Audi R8
>
>I think the fact that they didn't have to stop for a new gearbox also
>had a part to play. Reliability wins Le Mans, not fuel consumption,
>hence the reason Panoz always start well and then fall out. Shame, as a
>mad looking car.
>
>Bill
>
>- ----
>Do you realize why Audi won the 24 hour Le Mans?
>
>Because they were more fuel-efficient, saving a fuel stop and their
>direct fuel injection also gave them more torque over a wider range
>of engine speeds.
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:03:57 +0200 
From: bill.shurvinton at nokia.com
>Subject: RE: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers
>
>Because you can. In germany there is the recorded case of a McLaren
>owner regularly exceeding 200 on the way to work.
>
>Also the proliferation of track days in Europe now means that there are
>many venues where you can go and take your toy for a good thrashing.
>
>Sheesh, a petrol head forum where someone is complaining about too much
>power and speed
>
>- -----Original Message-----
From: ext Alvaro Gil [mailto:242Turbo at alvarogil.com]
>  Of course it would take 
>some serious cash and lots stupidity.  Why would anyone want to go 
>240 f*****g MPH.  F*****g death wish?

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