DIY_EFI Digest V5 #520
DIY_EFI Digest
DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner at diy-efi.org
Fri Mar 9 09:55:10 GMT 2001
DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, March 6 2001 Volume 05 : Number 520
In this issue:
Re: CS-453
Basic TPS circuit help needed
RE: Cal Map Software for Accel DFI
Tuning with EGT
RE: Tuning with EGT
Re: Tuning with EGT
Re: Tuning with EGT
Re: Troubleshooting
RE: Tuning with EGT
RE: Tuning with EGT
Re: Tuning with EGT
Re: Tuning with EGT
Re: $175 CO meter?
Re: $175 CO meter?
See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the
DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:44:40 +1100
From: Wayne Macdonald <wmcdonal at hutch.com.au>
Subject: Re: CS-453
Has anyone found a replacement for the cherry CS-453 driver ?
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:14:51 -0500
From: Rodney_L_Wiggins at keybank.com
Subject: Basic TPS circuit help needed
Does any one have a schematic for a circuit I can use to convert the 0-1 volt
signal from my stock TPS to the 0-5 volt signal required by my accel unit. I am
piggybacking the accel setup on the stock settup and to allow the stock computer
to handle timing and idle control (for now). Anyway, I could run both TPSs if
there is good reason to go through the fabrication of such a setup. I am quite
weak on the EE side of things so any guidance would be appreciated. I understand
the basic use of an op-amp but I don't know what sort of regulation or
protection is necessary to make this circuit reliable in an automotive
application. And I surely don't want to risk hurting either ECU.
TIA!
Rod
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:41:21 -0500
From: "Shirley, Mark R" <MarkRShirley at eaton.com>
Subject: RE: Cal Map Software for Accel DFI
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0A582.589C3E60
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Yes, I've seen the new software too. Pretty nice.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob Wooten [mailto:r71chevy at earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 1:25 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: Cal Map Software for Accel DFI
Tom,
I read an article about a gent that worked for Accels parent company that
just built this wicked 1000 hp turbo motor. he was using the latest version
of the CalMap software (CalMap 2001 or something like that). this is
supposed to go along with their next gen ECM's that I hear are not out yet.
from what I understand, both are supposed to be worth the wait. one of the
guys on this list (Pretty sure it was this list), just got the new eval
version of it & was goo goo about it. he said that he had to call them to
get them to send it to him.
from what it sounds Accel is pretty serious about this now & are making
stuff to compete with the WBO2 units & w/easier programmability.
Good luck
Bob Wooten
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of RSRACE at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 10:01 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Cal Map Software for Accel DFI
Does anyone have the software for Accel DFI. I am looking at purchasing it
for a Vette Project and would like to see the software and possibly save
$200. E-mail me if you have info.
Thanks
Tom
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0A582.589C3E60
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face="Century Gothic" size=2><SPAN
class=560024214-05032001>Yes, I've seen the new software too. Pretty
nice. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bob Wooten
[mailto:r71chevy at earthlink.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 04, 2001 1:25
AM<BR><B>To:</B> diy_efi at diy-efi.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Cal Map Software
for Accel DFI<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=050501906-04032001>Tom,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=050501906-04032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=050501906-04032001>I
read an article about a gent that worked for Accels parent company that just
built this wicked 1000 hp turbo motor. he was using the latest version
of the CalMap software (CalMap 2001 or something like that). this is
supposed to go along with their next gen ECM's that I hear are not out
yet. from what I understand, both are supposed to be worth the
wait. one of the guys on this list (Pretty sure it was this list), just
got the new eval version of it & was goo goo about it. he said that
he had to call them to get them to send it to him. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=050501906-04032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=050501906-04032001>from
what it sounds Accel is pretty serious about this now & are making stuff
to compete with the WBO2 units & w/easier
programmability.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=050501906-04032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=050501906-04032001>Good
luck</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=050501906-04032001>Bob
Wooten</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=050501906-04032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org
[mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>RSRACE at aol.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 03, 2001 10:01
PM<BR><B>To:</B> diy_efi at diy-efi.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Cal Map Software for
Accel DFI<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Does
anyone have the software for Accel DFI. I am looking at purchasing it
<BR>for a Vette Project and would like to see the software and possibly save
<BR>$200. E-mail me if you have info. <BR><BR>Thanks <BR>Tom</FONT>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:41:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Grant Crockett <idratherbedriving at yahoo.com>
Subject: Tuning with EGT
Has anybody done air-fuel mixture tuning with exhaust
gas temp rather than O2 sensor? I have read that the
thermocouple has a much quicker reaction time to high
heat/lean fuel conditions than an O2 sensor.
If so, what are you getting for temperature readings?
I am wondering what temps (deg F) would equate to
optimum performance, without detonation.
end
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:26:59 -0000
From: "Rich M" <rsrich at cwcom.net>
Subject: RE: Tuning with EGT
Hmmm, that's an interesting thought - can EGT be used in any way to indicate
onset of detonation?
Rich
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of Grant Crockett
> Sent: 05 March 2001 16:42
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Tuning with EGT
>
>
> Has anybody done air-fuel mixture tuning with exhaust
> gas temp rather than O2 sensor? I have read that the
> thermocouple has a much quicker reaction time to high
> heat/lean fuel conditions than an O2 sensor.
>
> If so, what are you getting for temperature readings?
> I am wondering what temps (deg F) would equate to
> optimum performance, without detonation.
>
> end
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without
> the quotes)
> in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org
>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:37:22 -0500
From: "Jason R. Haines" <jhaines at lingenfelter.com>
Subject: Re: Tuning with EGT
We used to use EGTs for tuning but have switched to individual AFRs. We have
found the AFR to react much faster than the EGT. If you look at the time
constansts for most thermocouples, the amount of time required to get to 90%
of the actual reading is often measured in seconds while the UEGO sensors
are measured in milliseconds. Also, you can be rich or lean and cause
similar EGT's to occur depending on where the combustion is taking place (in
the chamber or in the exhaust).
Just my $0.02
Jason
> Has anybody done air-fuel mixture tuning with exhaust
> gas temp rather than O2 sensor? I have read that the
> thermocouple has a much quicker reaction time to high
> heat/lean fuel conditions than an O2 sensor.
>
> If so, what are you getting for temperature readings?
> I am wondering what temps (deg F) would equate to
> optimum performance, without detonation.
>
> end
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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quotes)
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:51:22 -0500
From: "justin ivan" <vlkslvr at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Tuning with EGT
I have seen various discussion on this issue. I would agree that tuning by
EGT alone can be dangerous becuase it can occur at different AFR's. Likewise
tuning with AFR alone can also be a limitation becuase you don't know how
close to the threshold before detonation you are. My comments apply largely
to turbo efi cars as that is my experience but it is very possible to be at
desired AFR but be 100+ deg F cool on the EGT, that means that ther is some
room for more power to be made. I feel that both are probably better then
one or the other. That being said I would rather have an AFR if I was
limited to only one.
Justin
>From: "Jason R. Haines" <jhaines at lingenfelter.com>
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Subject: Re: Tuning with EGT
>Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:37:22 -0500
>
>We used to use EGTs for tuning but have switched to individual AFRs. We
>have
>found the AFR to react much faster than the EGT. If you look at the time
>constansts for most thermocouples, the amount of time required to get to
>90%
>of the actual reading is often measured in seconds while the UEGO sensors
>are measured in milliseconds. Also, you can be rich or lean and cause
>similar EGT's to occur depending on where the combustion is taking place
>(in
>the chamber or in the exhaust).
>
>Just my $0.02
>
>Jason
>
> > Has anybody done air-fuel mixture tuning with exhaust
> > gas temp rather than O2 sensor? I have read that the
> > thermocouple has a much quicker reaction time to high
> > heat/lean fuel conditions than an O2 sensor.
> >
> > If so, what are you getting for temperature readings?
> > I am wondering what temps (deg F) would equate to
> > optimum performance, without detonation.
> >
> > end
> >
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:34:58 -0800
From: "Walter Sherwin" <wsherwin at home.com>
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting
> I am having trouble with my fuel injection.Some co workers and I are
stumped
> as to what is wrong.
>
> The Integrator will bounce between 240-255 and 0. At idle it will read in
> the upper 200's. It will hit 0 with throttle tip in and go back and forth
> between 2xx and 0 during driving. 02 fluctuates and crosscounts. All other
> sensors seem to be reading ok. Block learn is 124 to 128, as seen on a
Snap
> on Scanner.
>
>Chris
Does your vehicle have an actual driveability problem that you are
attempting to cure, or is this just something that you've noticed while
staring at the scantool periodically? I had a similar situation once, and
eventually decided it was a software and/or scan tool glitch. The problem
only occurred when using my Snap-On MT2500 scan tool, but was absent when
using a Tech I. The vehicle ran fine.
Every once in awhile, one frame of data would get messed up, and then the
next would typically be fine. Never more than 2 messed frames in a row.
The only two parameters that were affected were the INT and the ESC status.
INT would read funny (ie:
27.....41.....48......0......63.....66......70......225.....232.........
real numbers from scans of that vehicle). ESC would toggle from NO to YES
whenever the INT was messed.
If you don't have an actual driveability problem, and if you don't think
that your computer is suffering some form of reset (monitor the EST bypass
line, and power & ground lines, with an oscilloscope to look for glitches),
then I would ignore the whole deal.
Walt.
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Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:35:17 -0600
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
Subject: RE: Tuning with EGT
Has anybody tried the new RTD type EGT that are on the newer cars they are
supposed to be much faster than thermocouples
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason R. Haines [SMTP:jhaines at lingenfelter.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 11:37 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: Tuning with EGT
>
> We used to use EGTs for tuning but have switched to individual AFRs. We
> have
> found the AFR to react much faster than the EGT. If you look at the time
> constansts for most thermocouples, the amount of time required to get to
> 90%
> of the actual reading is often measured in seconds while the UEGO sensors
> are measured in milliseconds. Also, you can be rich or lean and cause
> similar EGT's to occur depending on where the combustion is taking place
> (in
> the chamber or in the exhaust).
>
> Just my $0.02
>
> Jason
>
> > Has anybody done air-fuel mixture tuning with exhaust
> > gas temp rather than O2 sensor? I have read that the
> > thermocouple has a much quicker reaction time to high
> > heat/lean fuel conditions than an O2 sensor.
> >
> > If so, what are you getting for temperature readings?
> > I am wondering what temps (deg F) would equate to
> > optimum performance, without detonation.
> >
> > end
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the
> quotes)
> > in the body of a message (not the subject) to
> majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org
> >
> >
>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:56:59 -0600
From: "Josh Pullen" <joshpullen at onebox.com>
Subject: RE: Tuning with EGT
EGT's can really only indicate that you may be running lean or not.
But there are can be other causes for detonation than just a lean condition.
- --
Josh Pullen
1994 HKS T04R Supra Turbo
http://jmpvm.dyndns.org
- ---- "Rich M" <rsrich at cwcom.net> wrote:
> Hmmm, that's an interesting thought - can EGT be used in any way to
> indicate
> onset of detonation?
> Rich
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
> > Behalf Of Grant Crockett
> > Sent: 05 March 2001 16:42
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: Tuning with EGT
> >
> >
> > Has anybody done air-fuel mixture tuning with exhaust
> > gas temp rather than O2 sensor? I have read that the
> > thermocouple has a much quicker reaction time to high
> > heat/lean fuel conditions than an O2 sensor.
> >
> > If so, what are you getting for temperature readings?
> > I am wondering what temps (deg F) would equate to
> > optimum performance, without detonation.
> >
> > end
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without
> > the quotes)
> > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org
> >
>
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:40:58 -0500
From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
Subject: Re: Tuning with EGT
EGT's are about reaching the thermal limits of the engine.
No more, nor less.
You can change the EGTs by changing timing, and fuel, etc..
You monitor EGTs, not tune to a specific EGT, though folks often fall into
it worked for Mr ABC, so it is a Golden Rule.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh Pullen" <joshpullen at onebox.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:56 PM
Subject: RE: Tuning with EGT
> EGT's can really only indicate that you may be running lean or not.
> But there are can be other causes for detonation than just a lean
condition.
>
> --
> Josh Pullen
> 1994 HKS T04R Supra Turbo
> http://jmpvm.dyndns.org
>
>
> ---- "Rich M" <rsrich at cwcom.net> wrote:
> > Hmmm, that's an interesting thought - can EGT be used in any way to
> > indicate
> > onset of detonation?
> > Rich
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
> > > Behalf Of Grant Crockett
> > > Sent: 05 March 2001 16:42
> > > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > Subject: Tuning with EGT
> > >
> > >
> > > Has anybody done air-fuel mixture tuning with exhaust
> > > gas temp rather than O2 sensor? I have read that the
> > > thermocouple has a much quicker reaction time to high
> > > heat/lean fuel conditions than an O2 sensor.
> > >
> > > If so, what are you getting for temperature readings?
> > > I am wondering what temps (deg F) would equate to
> > > optimum performance, without detonation.
> > >
> > > end
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----------
> > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without
> > > the quotes)
> > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to
majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org
> > >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:24:00 -0500
From: "Larry Heath" <lgheath at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Tuning with EGT
Most guys that drag race use EGT to tune. Most of us look for a max of about
1200 to 1250 degrees F as the car crosses the finish line, i.e. max load max
rpm. This is of course using fuels with very high octane ratings, generally
no less than 105 octane and as much as 118, that are generally not prone to
detonation even under extreme conditions. I lot of guys use the EGT's in
tuning alcohol fueled engines, as the typical signs use to tune gas fired
engines are generally not present, the alcohol fuel being very clean burning
and has such a wide range of flammability. Most guys seem to use the same
basic temp range as a max, although I have seen references to EGT's much
lower than the 1200 to 1250 range as being ideal for max power.
Thermocouples (K type) are generally fairly slow as far as response time
goes, at least for the typical thermocouples used in this application. The
faster the response rate of the couple the shorter the average life of the
unit is. I have seen bare wire thermocouples with standard response times
of as little as .004 sec, but these would not last any significant amount of
time, in an exhaust gas environment. About the minimum wire size that would
be usable as a EGT is .015" and this has about a .8 sec response time going
from 100 to 800 degrees in 60 ft/sec gas.
Along these same lines I have a question; does any have any info about
tuning alcohol fueled engines using an O2 sensor or other similar sensor to
allow A/F ratios to be determined on a much faster basis than the typical
EGT thermocouple sensors.
Later Larry
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Crockett" <idratherbedriving at yahoo.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 11:41 AM
Subject: Tuning with EGT
> Has anybody done air-fuel mixture tuning with exhaust
> gas temp rather than O2 sensor? I have read that the
> thermocouple has a much quicker reaction time to high
> heat/lean fuel conditions than an O2 sensor.
>
> If so, what are you getting for temperature readings?
> I am wondering what temps (deg F) would equate to
> optimum performance, without detonation.
>
> end
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
> To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the
quotes)
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:27:36 -0500
From: bjanesi at juno.com
Subject: Re: $175 CO meter?
"Rich M" <rsrich at cwcom.net> wrote...
>in a green box it sounds like it may be made by 'Gunsons'. If it is the
> unit I'm thinking of, your conclusion is correct - best left in the
shop -
> we had one here at work for evaluation (albeit a bit unfairly comparing
it
> to an infra-red absorption meter) and it wasn't much use.
> However I may be completely wrong and thinking of a different
> unit.......
The Gunson is the only one I have ever seen (okay, they make two models -
one with a digital gauge, the other a sweep hand). I went so far as to
buy one of these (the digital one), only to return shortly after
purchase. IMO, it is for very crude measurements - mine swung wildly
around a range of negative (?) PPM to over a hundred PPM on a car that
was in a very clean state of tune.
I suspect the $35 home CO meter may actually be more accurate, and I'd be
interested to hear of your success (or failure) in using it for exhaust
CO measurement.
Brad
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Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:36:57 -0500
From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
Subject: Re: $175 CO meter?
Sounds like an update on the old Heathkit CO2 meter kit.
Sensor was just part of a whetstone bridge.
State of the art circa 1975
Bruce
From: <bjanesi at juno.com>
> "Rich M" <rsrich at cwcom.net> wrote...
> >in a green box it sounds like it may be made by 'Gunsons'. If it is the
> > unit I'm thinking of, your conclusion is correct - best left in the
> shop -
> > we had one here at work for evaluation (albeit a bit unfairly comparing
> it
> > to an infra-red absorption meter) and it wasn't much use.
> > However I may be completely wrong and thinking of a different
> > unit.......
>
> The Gunson is the only one I have ever seen (okay, they make two models -
> one with a digital gauge, the other a sweep hand). I went so far as to
> buy one of these (the digital one), only to return shortly after
> purchase. IMO, it is for very crude measurements - mine swung wildly
> around a range of negative (?) PPM to over a hundred PPM on a car that
> was in a very clean state of tune.
>
> I suspect the $35 home CO meter may actually be more accurate, and I'd be
> interested to hear of your success (or failure) in using it for exhaust
> CO measurement.
>
> Brad
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