[Diy_efi] higher pressure pumps for water injection

Fri Aug 2 11:28:44 GMT 2002

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Are these ratios by volume or my mass? Sorry, But who is Ricardo and what
is the title of his book? Could someone email me (pdf or other) the
pertinent pages on water injection? It is obvious that there is a lot more
engineering (always is) to design a water injection system then to just
cobble one together and make it spit water. Are there any other links or
resources that would help the DIY'er in me cobble together an engineered
system? Are there any other rules of thumb for this from a design
standpoint or from a tuning standpoint. Aquamist http://www.aquamist.co.uk/
<http://www.aquamist.co.uk/> offers all kinds of controls for RPM, timing
retard and etc. Does anyone have or seen a "table" that explains the tuning
aspect of water injection i.e. at what RPM, boost level, VE to remove X
amount of timing? I guess this would all be model specific to your engine
a mods.

I know many of the pluses but what are some of the negatives of a water
injection system?  a) have to keep it filled b) should use distilled water
to reduce nozzle scale c) should mix with alcohol 50/50 so it acts to
inhibit freezing and improve latent heat characteristics d) what others are
there? How big a deal is droplet formation size and uniformity? What about
dispersion within the manifold on say a supercharged Bonneville with a roots
style blower and little room for mixing?  How about on an 91 EFI Mustang
with twin turbos? Do you need to a use a NOS style fogger setup on to
achieve dispersion or can you get away with a single nozzle.

Thanks
Bill  Porter

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:39:14 -0400
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org <mailto:diy_efi at diy-efi.org> 
From: Chris Conlon <synchris at speakeasy.org <mailto:synchris at speakeasy.org> >
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] higher pressure pumps for water injection
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org <mailto:diy_efi at diy-efi.org> 

At 08:26 AM 8/1/02 -0400, Eric Fahlgren wrote:
>Chris Conlon wrote:
>
>> Here is a link to a pump that supposedly goes up over 200 psi, though 
>> the flow rate at that pressure *might* be a bit low for a 2JZ-GTE or 
>> other like engine.
>
>No, it's plenty big, the number is in GPM (minute not hour), so it can 
>pump 8lb/gal * 2gpm * 60min/hr = 960 lb/hr of water.

The page does not say so explicitly, but since it says "pumps *up to* 2 GPM"
(emphasis added) I am pretty sure it pumps a lot less at 220psi than at
50psi. Maybe the flow does not drop off as much as a centrifugal would, but
then again they don't actually say. Thus my warning.

>Consider
>that you want maybe from 5:1 to 3:1 fuel to water (look in Ricardo for 
>more [don't we always say that?])

We do... but my feeling is that 4:1 to 2:1 is a more likely range, and one
set of tests someone just pointed me to went up to 2:3 fuel to water with
considerable benefit. At the very least I'd hate to design a system then
have to go back and redo it later because I wanted a higher flow rate.

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=258285210-02082002>Are these ratios by 
volume or my mass?&nbsp; Sorry, But who is Ricardo and what is the title of his 
book?&nbsp; Could someone email me (pdf or other) the pertinent pages on water 
injection?&nbsp; It is obvious that there is a lot more engineering (always is) 
to design a water injection system then to just cobble one together and make it 
spit water.&nbsp; Are there any other links or resources that would help the 
DIY'er in me cobble together an engineered system?&nbsp; Are there any other 
rules of thumb for this from a design standpoint or from a tuning 
standpoint.&nbsp; Aquamist <A 
href="http://www.aquamist.co.uk/">http://www.aquamist.co.uk/</A>&nbsp;offers all 
kinds of controls for RPM, timing retard and etc.&nbsp; Does anyone have or seen 
a "table" that explains the tuning aspect of water injection i.e. at what RPM, 
boost level, VE to remove X amount of timing?&nbsp;&nbsp; I guess this would all 
be model specific to your engine a mods.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=258285210-02082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=258285210-02082002>I know many of the 
pluses but what are some of the negatives of a water injection system?&nbsp; a) 
have to keep it filled b) should use distilled water to reduce nozzle scale c) 
should mix with alcohol 50/50 so it acts to inhibit freezing and improve latent 
heat characteristics d) what others are there? How big a deal is droplet 
formation size and uniformity? What about dispersion within the manifold on say 
a supercharged Bonneville with a roots style blower and little room for 
mixing?&nbsp; How about on an 91 EFI&nbsp;Mustang with twin turbos? Do you need 
to a use a NOS style fogger setup on to achieve dispersion or can you get away 
with a single nozzle.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=258285210-02082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=258285210-02082002>Thanks</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=258285210-02082002>Bill&nbsp; 
Porter</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Message: 2<BR>Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:39:14 
-0400<BR>To: <A 
href="mailto:diy_efi at diy-efi.org">diy_efi at diy-efi.org</A><BR>From: Chris Conlon 
&lt;<A 
href="mailto:synchris at speakeasy.org">synchris at speakeasy.org</A>&gt;<BR>Subject: 
Re: [Diy_efi] higher pressure pumps for water injection<BR>Reply-To: <A 
href="mailto:diy_efi at diy-efi.org">diy_efi at diy-efi.org</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>At 08:26 AM 8/1/02 -0400, Eric Fahlgren 
wrote:<BR>&gt;Chris Conlon wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Here is a link to a pump 
that supposedly goes up over 200 psi, though <BR>&gt;&gt; the flow rate at that 
pressure *might* be a bit low for a 2JZ-GTE or <BR>&gt;&gt; other like 
engine.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;No, it's plenty big, the number is in GPM (minute not 
hour), so it can <BR>&gt;pump 8lb/gal * 2gpm * 60min/hr = 960 lb/hr of 
water.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The page does not say so explicitly, but since it 
says "pumps *up to* 2 GPM" (emphasis added) I am pretty sure it pumps a lot less 
at 220psi than at 50psi. Maybe the flow does not drop off as much as a 
centrifugal would, but then again they don't actually say. Thus my 
warning.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;Consider<BR>&gt;that you want maybe from 5:1 to 
3:1 fuel to water (look in Ricardo for <BR>&gt;more [don't we always say 
that?])</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We do... but my feeling is that 4:1 to 2:1 is a 
more likely range, and one set of tests someone just pointed me to went up to 
2:3 fuel to water with considerable benefit. At the very least I'd hate to 
design a system then have to go back and redo it later because I wanted a higher 
flow rate.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
<BR>
<BR>

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Visit O'Neal, Inc. on the web at http://www.onealinc.com

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged </FONT></P>

material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this </FONT></P>

message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the

sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily </FONT></P>

reflect the views of the company.

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">***************************************************************************</FONT></P>

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