[Diy_efi] Ion sensing???- 15 msgs

Wed Dec 4 02:50:03 GMT 2002

I am a recent subscriber to this list and have enjoyed it greatly in the 
last week since I joined...

Could you please post the whereabouts on the information for Ion 
sensing?  Is there any discrimination as to the nature of these ions?  Can 
I assume this must be from the exhaust?

Larry

At 11:50 AM 12/3/2002 -0800, you wrote:
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>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Accel Gen 6 DFI (Shirley, Mark R)
>    2. Ford cam position sensor... (Gerard)
>    3. Low cost 2-axis accelerometer (Phil Hunter)
>    4. Running extra injectors off a stock ecu (bcroe at juno.com)
>    5. EGORtech products (Stephen M Andersen)
>    6. Spark Table (Aaron)
>    7. Re: Low cost 2-axis accelerometer (Barry)
>    8. camshaft position sensor location (Karl Griffin)
>    9. Bouncing Map readings (Aaron)
>   10. Re: Bouncing Map readings (Mike)
>   11. Re: camshaft position sensor location (mike beebe)
>   12. Re: Re: Custom detonation detecting (Jon Prevost)
>   13. Re: Re: Custom detonation detecting (Andris Skulte)
>   14. Re: Re: Custom detonation detecting (Greg Hermann)
>   15. Re: Re: Custom detonation detecting (Derek)
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
From: "Shirley, Mark R" <MarkRShirley at eaton.com>
>To: "'diy_efi at diy-efi.org'" <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:54:56 -0500
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Accel Gen 6 DFI
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org]
> > Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 3:00 PM
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #384 - 4 msgs
> >
> >
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 12:36:29 -0800 (PST)
> > From: Robert Wilkinson <rnwilkinson at yahoo.com>
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: [Diy_efi] Getting low impedance injectors to work
> > with Gen 6 Accel DFI
> > Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >
> > Has anyone tried using 8 low impedance injectors with
> > a Gen 6 Accel Batch fire DFI (015013)?
> >
> >
> > Mr. Gasket is currently claiming that this DFI will
> > not drive 8 low impedance injectors.
> > http://www.mrgasket.com/maildirect/helpdesk/problemdetail.asp?
> > ID=46895&TicketID=46895
> >
> > However, there are 3 reasons that I'm not 100%
> > convinced it won't work:
> >
> > 1)
> > Before the introduction of the Gen 7 DFI and the
> > Variable Injector Controller, Mr. Gasket used to claim
> > that the Gen 6 Batch fire DFI would support 8 low
> > impedance injectors.  An article about the Gen 6 was
> > printed in the Jan 1998 issue of High Tech Performance
> > magazine.
> > It said "The deficiency of most factory ECU's was also
> > corrected by the employment of four peak-and-hold
> > drivers in lieu of the customary two saturated drivers
> > that most OE management systems incorporate.  This
> > allowed the DFI the ability to control low-resistance
> > high-flow injectors, enabling the fuel system to
> > support huge hp numbers."
> > Mr. Gasket was listed as the source of this article.
> > I asked Mr. Gasket about this in March 2000, and they
> > emailed me and said "Sir, The article is incorrect".
> > However, they still keep a copy of this article on
> > their website today.  The quote is on page 15 of 34:
> > http://www.mrgasket.com/pdf/DFI.pdf
> >
> > 2)
> > The EMIC manual lists the typical current requirement
> > for a low impedance injector, and it's very close to
> > meeting the specifications of the drivers.
> > "If a peak and hold injector or driver is rated at 4/1
> > amps that translates as 4 amps to open the injector
> > and 1 amp to keep it opened."  Then it says "A
> > standard 015013 ECU incorporates 4 4/1 drivers"
> > page 15 of http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/pdf/EMIC.pdf
> > Then they show a graph of a current vs. time for a low
> > impedance injector.  It peaks at approx 2.5 amps, then
> > holds at approx 0.5 amps.
> > See figure 1.15 on page 14 of
> > http://www.mrgasket.com/ftp/pdf/EMIC.pdf
> > Using 2 injectors with one driver would then require a
> > 5 amp peak, and 1 amp to hold.  Would this be possible
> > with a 4 amp peak, 1 amp hold driver?
> >
> > 3)
> > Why would Accel choose to install 4 expensive
> > peak-and-hold injector drivers instead of 2 cheap
> > saturated drivers like the OEM's typically did?
> >
> >
> > -Rob
> >
>Rob, the way it was explained to me was that you "could" run 8 low-u
>injectors off a
>015013 ECU, but it wouldn't work reliably, or long.  I asked one of the guys
>who works
>at DFI, in Wixom, MI.  It was more so that the drag racer could do it and
>use the cheaper
>non-SEFI box for short periods that they used the 4 peak/hold drivers.
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:41:48 +0200
From: Gerard <gerard at poboxes.com>
>To: "diy_efi at diy-efi.org" <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford cam position sensor...
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>Hi!
>
>Can anyone provide me with information on the Ford cam position sensor
>(part number DU-47 or Napa number ECHCSS405)?
>
>I am still looking for a nice compact cam angle sensor to replace my
>distributor and this recently caught my eye. I am not familiar with
>Fords so I thought someone here might know about this sensor. I am
>specifically looking for photos of the connector and the underside of
>the sensor (where the cam drive input goes or where a windowed wheel
>must pass).
>
>I'm also curious about the operation of this unit and what items it will
>need (eg. a wheel with a reference window or something like that). I
>don't know whether it contains a hall sensor and an opening for a
>windowed wheel or whether it is directly driven. Any help welcome. :)
>
>Thanks.
>
>G.
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:53:49 -0800
From: Phil Hunter <diy-efi at t-n-e.com>
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Low cost 2-axis accelerometer
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>The Dec. '02 issue of Nuts-N-Volts magazine has an article on a 2 axis
>accelerometer from http://www.memsic.com, price is in the $10-15 range.
>Outputs are either a digital PWM or analog voltage depending on model,
>most seem to be either +/- 2 or 10G's. Most are surface mount, but the
>"GW" suffix parts are 14 pin DIPs.
>
>The technology they are using is interesting, details on their web site,
>I wouldn't think it would be suitable for automotive environments, but
>they mention using it for air-bags.
>
>Obvious use for DIYers is data logging and correlating tuning w/
>acceleration and horsepower. Not exactly related to this list, but one
>app. note suggests using it for a burglar alarm.
>
>Frequency response rolls off about 30Hz, but they have an app. note on
>how to get beyond 160Hz, makes me wonder if there might be some way to
>use it to monitor an engine, detecting a misfire perhaps? Getting a
>"signature" for later comparison?
>
>The article states the 2125GW is identical to Analog Devices ADXL202.
>
>rgds,
>philh
>(digest)
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 4
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:25:06 -0600
From: bcroe at juno.com
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Running extra injectors off a stock ecu
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>Eric,
>
>The rate you add or remove energy from a magnetic circuit
>depends on the applied voltage.  You opened it with 14 volts.
>Letting the current kick into a 1N4004 will only give .7 volts,
>so the rate of decay will be a dozen or so times slower.  The
>release time will therefore be slow.
>
>There are other losses, like the coil resistance, which help the
>decay.  Low resistance peak & hold injectors need the high
>voltage kickback the most.
>
>Letting it kick into maybe a large 40 volt Zener across the
>transistor (or equivalent circuit) will speed the magnetic
>collapse, before it can close.
>
>Bruce Roe
>
>On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:23:52 -0500 "Eric.Fahlgren"
><eric.fahlgren at mscsoftware.com> writes:
> > Bruce,
> >
> > Ok, time for me to get some education.
> >
> > Is this because there is a reverse voltage ring on the injector
> > coil?  Would this be made better by a zener to ground?  Would the
> > best solution be to have a pair of signals, open and close, which
> > control two transistors one for each of the modes?
>
> > Eric
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 5
From: "Stephen M Andersen" <steve.andersen at dol.net>
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:35:37 -0500
>Subject: [Diy_efi] EGORtech products
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>Have any of you guys ever ordered/purchased anything
>from the "esteemed" Mr Garfield Willis?
>
>Not trying to start a flame war here.  If anyone has
>purchased anything from him or EGORtech, please
>contact me offline at:
>
>steve.andersen at dol.net
>
>Thanks,
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 6
From: "Aaron" <Aaron at lightfirst.com>
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:31:36 -0600
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Spark Table
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C29A41.CF680E10
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Hello all,=20
>
>I am new to the list and was wondering if I could ask something of your =
>collective experience and intelligence. I recently purchased a FAST =
>(formerly Speedpro) computer with the Wide band O2. I currently have my =
>spark table set to 16d at idle and linearly increasing to 34d at 3000 =
>(and up). 34d is where the car made max power on the dyno. I have the =
>spark set flat in this fashion at all kPa levels and was wondering if I =
>could have some pointers on what else to do. I heard that at lower kPas =
>and higher RPMs you can run more spark advance safely to improve =
>throttle response. I have been looking at GM spark tables, but they only =
>go to 3600rpm and for some reason are at only 20d at the highest RPMs =
>and kPas. I think I am reading them incorrectly.=20
>
>Anyway, to make a long post short, I am looking for a "standard" =
>performance spark table for a GM smallblock to use as a starting point =
>for future tuning. Any help would be appreciated.=20
>
>Also, are there any Speedpro guys in the Chicagoland area that could =
>give me some pointers as to the rest of my calibration?
>
>Thank you,
>-Aaron
>'90 Caprice 9C1 12.73 @ 105.75 1.7 60'
>
>------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C29A41.CF680E10
>Content-Type: text/html;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>Hello all,
>
>I am new to the list and was wondering = if I could=20 ask something of 
>your collective experience and intelligence. I recently = purchased a FAST 
>(formerly Speedpro) computer with the Wide band O2. I = currently=20 have 
>my spark table set to 16d at idle and linearly increasing to = 34d at=20 
>3000 (and up). 34d is where the car made max power on the dyno. I = have 
>the=20 spark set flat in this fashion at all kPa levels and was wondering 
>if I = could=20 have some pointers on what else to do. I heard that at 
>lower kPas and = higher=20 RPMs you can run more spark advance safely to 
>improve throttle response. = I have=20 been looking at GM spark tables, 
>but they only go to 3600rpm and for = some reason=20 are at only 20d at 
>the highest RPMs and kPas. I think I am reading them=20 incorrectly.
>
>Anyway, to make a long post short, I am = looking for=20 a "standard" 
>performance spark table for a GM smallblock to use as a = starting=20 
>point for future tuning. Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Also, are there any Speedpro guys in = the=20 Chicagoland area that could 
>give me some pointers as to the rest of my=20 calibration?
>
>Thank you,
>-Aaron
>'90 Caprice 9C1 12.73 @ 105.75 1.7=20 60'
>
>------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C29A41.CF680E10--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 21:36:16 -0500
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
From: Barry <sy2th at direcway.com>
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Low cost 2-axis accelerometer
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>I use a unit by Crossbow for tuning purposes - cost a bundle more, though
>($105, IIRC)!  Definitely gives some numbers to play with regarding 'real'
>acceleration vs. 'seat of the pants'.  Spikes in accel can make the vehicle
>*feel* faster, but the area under the curve plotted vs time gives the true
>picture.  Dunno about monitoring an actual engine with one, but I recall an
>article awhile back about one used on the belt tensioner to pick up knock -
>apparently the crankshaft gets a noticeable 'kick' from a knock event.
>
>Barry
>
>At 01:53 PM 12/2/02 -0800, you wrote:
> >The Dec. '02 issue of Nuts-N-Volts magazine has an article on a 2 axis
> >accelerometer from http://www.memsic.com, price is in the $10-15 range.
> >Outputs are either a digital PWM or analog voltage depending on model,
> >most seem to be either +/- 2 or 10G's. Most are surface mount, but the
> >"GW" suffix parts are 14 pin DIPs.
> >
> >The technology they are using is interesting, details on their web site,
> >I wouldn't think it would be suitable for automotive environments, but
> >they mention using it for air-bags.
> >
> >Obvious use for DIYers is data logging and correlating tuning w/
> >acceleration and horsepower. Not exactly related to this list, but one
> >app. note suggests using it for a burglar alarm.
> >
> >Frequency response rolls off about 30Hz, but they have an app. note on
> >how to get beyond 160Hz, makes me wonder if there might be some way to
> >use it to monitor an engine, detecting a misfire perhaps? Getting a
> >"signature" for later comparison?
> >
> >The article states the 2125GW is identical to Analog Devices ADXL202.
> >
> >rgds,
> >philh
> >(digest)
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:52:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Karl Griffin <karlgriffin at yahoo.com>
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: [Diy_efi] camshaft position sensor location
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>Please help!  I'm searching in vain for the location
>of the CMP on my 1999 GMC Sierra 1500.  Motor is a
>V-8, 4.8L.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 9
From: "Aaron" <Aaron at lightfirst.com>
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:01:08 -0600
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Bouncing Map readings
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C29A4E.519EBF80
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>What could be the cause of my MAP sensor reading between 96 and 103 =
>(bouncing up and down) at WOT? Maybe it is picking up induction pulses =
>from the runners? I have it piped to a port in the back of my intake =
>manifold.
>
>Thanks,
>-Aaron
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C29A4E.519EBF80
>Content-Type: text/html;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
>What could be the cause of my MAP = sensor reading=20 between 96 and 103 
>(bouncing up and down) at WOT? Maybe it is picking up = induction pulses 
>from the runners? I have it piped to a port in the back = of my=20 intake 
>manifold.
>
>Thanks,
>-Aaron
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C29A4E.519EBF80--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:35:58
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
From: Mike <erazmus at iinet.net.au>
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Bouncing Map readings
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>classic pneumatic type oscillations in your plenum I woudl have thought,
>its not as much as I have heard about - so consider yourself lucky ;)
>
>If you want to smooth it out a bit run a static column fromt he plenum
>to your map sensor through a small dia pipe or a carefully chosen cap
>across the map sensor output - I prefer the former instead of loading
>the map electrical output and still have good transient response,
>
>rgds
>
>mike
>
>
>At 10:01 PM 2/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >What could be the cause of my MAP sensor reading between 96 and 103
>(bouncing up and down) at WOT? Maybe it is picking up induction pulses from
>the runners? I have it piped to a port in the back of my intake manifold.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >-Aaron
> >
> >Attachment Converted: "C:\MAIL\INCOMING\Diy_efiB"
> >
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 11
From: "mike beebe" <mikebb1 at hotmail.com>
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Cc: karlgriffin at yahoo.com
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] camshaft position sensor location
>Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 05:12:41 +0000
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>It is at the back of the motor where the distributor would be on the old
>small blocks. I have a picture of it on my webpage at
>Http://www.mywebpages.comcast.net/beebe_mike
>I hope this helps
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Karl Griffin <karlgriffin at yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >Subject: [Diy_efi] camshaft position sensor location
> >Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:52:26 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Please help!  I'm searching in vain for the location
> >of the CMP on my 1999 GMC Sierra 1500.  Motor is a
> >V-8, 4.8L.  Any help is greatly appreciated
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 12
From: "Jon Prevost" <prevost.3 at osu.edu>
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
>Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 04:10:24 -0500
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
> > For whatever reason, Jon wanted to detect detonation acoustically, so
> > I was steering him away from his initial choice of a Cavalier(?) knock
> > sensor as counter-productive. I suspect that after he reads the URLs,
> > he'll abandon the acoustic approach altogether.
>
>Consider it abandoned for our project. I just found out that we have the
>tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now. Well that and
>finals.
>If I was going to go with the acoustic method I would have had to setup a
>lot of dry experiments and I wasn't ready to sit down, start the motor and
>record what happens to the acoustics while I "unhook" a timing chain, or cut
>fuel, etc. Too many issues to deal with. I still think it would be a fun
>project to record the general frequency range of detonation and see if there
>are any traights apparently obvious.
>Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.
>, Jon
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 13
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 04:28:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Andris Skulte <skulte at skulte.com>
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>This isn't accoustic, but on page 455 of Heywood's Internal Combustion
>Engine Fundamentals, they run a bandpass filter on their cylinder pressure
>transducer for the first transverse mode of gas vibration in the cylinder
>(in 3 to 10 kHz range, depending on bore and geometry). later on page 460,
>he mentiones immediately after the pressure spike, they see pressure
>oscillation at the 6 to 8 kHz range... ... page 461: "The frequency of
>pressure oscillations (in 5 to 10 kHz range) decreases with time as the
>initially finite amplitude supersonic pressure waves decal to small
>amplitude sound waves.
>
>Andris/Z28tt
>
>On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Jon Prevost wrote:
>
> > > For whatever reason, Jon wanted to detect detonation acoustically, so
> > > I was steering him away from his initial choice of a Cavalier(?) knock
> > > sensor as counter-productive. I suspect that after he reads the URLs,
> > > he'll abandon the acoustic approach altogether.
> >
> > Consider it abandoned for our project. I just found out that we have the
> > tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now. Well that and
> > finals.
> > If I was going to go with the acoustic method I would have had to setup a
> > lot of dry experiments and I wasn't ready to sit down, start the motor and
> > record what happens to the acoustics while I "unhook" a timing chain, 
> or cut
> > fuel, etc. Too many issues to deal with. I still think it would be a fun
> > project to record the general frequency range of detonation and see if 
> there
> > are any traights apparently obvious.
> > Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.
> > , Jon
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
>
>------------------
>Andris Skulte
>Skulte Performance Designs
>http://www.skulte.com
>Z28tt-89 IROC T56 DFI Twin Turbo
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 14
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (Greg Hermann)
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
>Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 08:55:32 -0500
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>At 4:10 AM 11/19/02, Jon Prevost wrote:
>
>  I just found out that we have the
> >tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now.
>
> >Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.
>
> >, Jon
> >
>Could you share a bit about just WHAT tools you have for ion sensing??
>
>Thanks,
>
>Greg
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 15
From: "Derek" <derek_obanion at yahoo.com>
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Custom detonation detecting
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:26:35 -0800
>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>Yes, PLEASE share. I'd love to have a way of determining PPP (Peak Pressure
>Point).
>
> >  I just found out that we have the
> > >tools for ion sensing and that's my major focus right now.
> >
> > >Thanks for the links to the ion sensing.
> >
> > >, Jon
> > >
> > Could you share a bit about just WHAT tools you have for ion sensing??
>
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
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>
>End of Diy_efi Digest

Larry Ing
Tel.  916-971-9941
FAX 916-971-9945
PGP on request

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