[Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #427 - 13 msgs

[Mike]

This was a little while back and my friend was so 'put out'
after he cooled down and spoke to a lawyer he wanted nothing
more to do with *any* additive company... If I pressed him
on this it would open old wounds and I know you would not
get a relaxed response, there is nothing else you can discern
from his usage <shrug> He runs a diesel
engine advisory firm and found other people with anecdotal
evidence of problems with sludges etc So he was even less
interested in getting involved with disputes and slanging matches.

The thing is what compelling evidence is there that the
metal particles *wont* congeal - when it is in their physical
and chemical nature to do exactly that !  ?

Think about it, Lead and Copper are ionic metallic elements
that have a predisposition to clump togther and you'd need
some luck to have them stay separate - especially in say the
gear type oil pumps, that is more than likely to compress the
particles togther - with nothing in the non-ionic compounds
in oil to separate them again !

Also, copper forms a *very* hygroscopic compound with
nitrates which you will find in blowby gases !

Copper Nitrate is so badly hygroscopic that a dry crystal
will melt in its own agglomerated fluid - and you want
that floating around in an engine - no way hose-aye !

Also Copper carbonate is a tad abrasive and that is
another compound that can easily form from blowby <sigh>

No amount of engine preparation that I've seen will
instill any degree of comfort for the addition of
lead or copper particles *especially* when there is
no compelling evidence of a 'force' or compound to
keep them from congealing - except the income derived
from selling them...

The only thing I add/do to my turbo engine is a small
amount of wynns oil thickener and an oil change each
3000-4000K with Mobil 1 synthetic, although my engine
has done some 230,000K or so it doesnt rattle or
hiccup mechanically and its tuned to give about 170KW
at the flyhweel...

rgds

mike



At 09:34 PM 19/12/2002 +1100, you wrote:
>Mike,
>    Thank you, your comments are of interest and potential concern.
>I would be interested to communicate with your acquaintance on this 
>matter to hear first hand of his experience from which I can then pose 
>some questions back to Pro-Ma directly. I would be happy for you to pass 
>my email address to him for this purpose.
>
>    Some points which may be relevant. Pro-Ma recommends:
>1. Not to add the Oil additive to new or re-conditioned engines which 
>have done less than 5000km.
>2. Not to add it to engines which use very light oils
>3. Not to add it in excess of the recommended dosage.
>4. Mix thoroughly with the last litre of oil before adding.
>5. Immediately after adding, run the engine for at least 15-30 mins 
>before shutdown.( I normally do an oil change immediately before I have 
>to drive somewhere which is going to take about that time).
>
>This was first added to my cars at 300,000km and 200,000km respectively.
>
>Your friend's experience obviously makes no comment about the Grease 
>product.
>
>The particles by the way are in the range 1-10 microns.
>
>I agree with you thoroughly regarding using friends and acquaintenances 
>as a meal ticket which is precisely why I am not in this as a business.
>Friendships are far too valuable to abuse in that way.
>The subject only comes up when someone asks a pointed question, ie the 
>wheel rolling resistance question on list, and the follow on questions 
>from that, or if/when someone sees me using it.
>
>    So again I appreciate your input and would like to follow up on it, 
>if that is at all possible.
>
>Best Regards and a safe Christmas to all - remember the reason for the 
>season!
>Bill
>
>
>>Message: 1
>>Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 05:11:27
>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>From: Mike <erazmus at iinet.net.au>
>>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #416 - 9 msgs
>>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>
>>At 08:56 PM 18/12/2002 +1100, you wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>Mike,
>>>   The data sheet says "Spherical micrometallic particles"
>>>Both Lead and Copper micro spheres are in suspension in the grease or 
>>>oil base (depending on the application).
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>I know someone who used to have a Honda Prelude, his engine blew
>>as his oil galleries were filled with a greyish sludge and he had
>>been a rigorous promar user for 9 years with his car from new,
>>dare I say it, he was not impressed and considered seriously
>>legal options.
>>Since then he uses the manufacturer recommended
>>oils in his new cars and has never had a problem with metallic
>>congealed sludge occluding his oil galleries.
>>
>>If there was anything positive in the long term with adding
>>metallic particles to oil which *didnt* congeal into masses
>>of junk causing blocking of oil galleries then I think by now
>>the auto manufacturers would have taken it on board.
>>
>>I have never seen one auto manufacturer endorse the practice
>>of adding 'microparticles' of metal into oil, when there is
>>no chemical basis for assuming they *wont* congeal into lumps.
>>
>>With the pressures exerted by (for example) the crank against
>>the bearings - what suggests these extreme pressures *wont*
>>cause those metallic particles to be pressed together and
>>squeeze into the small galleries in the bearings and stay there ?
>>
>>>From a psychological perspective people will always find
>>anecdotal and circumstantial incidents to add to their endeavours
>>as if its evidence. The modern internal combustion engine has
>>a great capacity for being abused by the addition of so called
>>additives and still manage to function and people misinterpret
>>its ability to continue to function as proof the additives
>>are doing their job.
>>
>>The practice of MLM where people are 'driven' to make business
>>with and of their closest associates blurs the issue of integrity
>>and is a disgusting expectation and one of manipulation, when
>>every friend they encounter becomes another meal ticket. And to use
>>questionable chemistry and physics as the basis in an industry
>>that is very well researched has me dissapointed in the level
>>of intellectual heights the human race has reached.
>>
>>What is the compelling evidence there is a chemical imperative
>>the metallic particles will *not* eventually become congealed ?
>>
>>rgds
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>Rgds
>>
>>mike
>>  
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://www.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi