[Diy_efi] J1850 PWM Info Request

[Adam Wade]

--- Rick Richard <saba_apollo at hotmail.com> wrote:

>> I don't understand the idea of expecting things for
>> free.

> Maybe we should charge each other for this
> conversation, then?

Except, for most of us here, there's no expectation of
cooperation.

I am writing a book, for instance.  Some of the things
I talk/ask about on here will subjects covered in the
book.  I make it clear up-front, though, on a regular
basis, and I ASK people to discuss these issues.  If
people decline to, or ask that their input here does
not go into the book, then it won't be in the book.

I read your initial email, and saw some of the
responses to it (one or two of which were stronger
than I thought appropriate).  Your approach, as
someone new to posting on the list (AFAIK), seemed a
little demanding in my estimation, and apparently that
of some other people as well.

I understand your points about using the test as a
reference, and not wanting to rip anyone off.  That
clarifies your position a lot, and I think it dispels
some misunderstandings had by myself and others here.

> Or pay taxes for the air we breathe?

Well, plants don't usually want anything but our
carbon dioxide, and we give that to them freely... 
Both sides find it equitable, I should think.  ;)

> I agree that people who do good work should get
> fairly compensated for it, but fairness is very
> subjective.  If the book were $20 new or
> used, I'd buy it.

You may yet find someone who would sell one for that. 
Again, someone who writes something is entitled to
charge whatever they feel like for it, and you're
entitled to buy or not buy.  Technical publications
often have a limited market, and cost a lot to
research and document.  The costs of publication are
much like the costs of production for machines; there
is the development and tooling cost, and then the
per-unit cost in energy and materials for
manufacturing.  Economies of scale.  These are the two
reasons why technical publications are usually
significantly more expensive than mass-market
paperbacks.  I don't see a lot of writers getting rich
off of technical books.  ;)

> The latest edition, however, lists for $110 and
> isn't popular in the used market.  The older edition
> is around $80.  That's too much for me and my DIY
> project.  I'm within my right to opt not to purchase
> the book and seek the information elsewhere, which
> is what I'm trying to do.

No, you stated outright that you were trying to seek
the information from the book, but without paying for
it.  With a brusque request, that rubbed some people
the wrong way, for various reasons.

> You're within your right to detest me for it.

I don't detest you.  I just think that things have
value, and I question the motives of people who try to
obtain valued things without spending anything.

> I have always felt that information should be free. 

Gaining information is not free, however.  How can one
gain new pools of information without spending money
on research?  If everything was free, then I can see
the point of making information free as well.  But
information doesn't grow on trees; someone has to find
it.

> It can be used to manufacture products for profit,
> which can then compensate inventors.

And you are developing such a product.  Do you propose
to pay royalties to the writers of the book you are
seeking, in exchange for not paying for a copy?

> The patent system works this way.  You can search
> and view patents for free at www.uspto.gov, but the
> law protects the inventor's interest in the idea.

Copyright laws work the same way, but a bit
differently.  They are, however, the only way to
protect printed information.  You cannot make your own
copies of the information contained within, so they
function just like patents.  You cannot make anything
with what is contacined within without compensating
the originator (either through licensing, or by
purchasing a copy).  Unfortunately, you can't patent
basic science.

> You mentioned that when I buy a book, I'm not buying
> paper and ink, but information.  That's only true
> sometimes.

When was the last time you bought a blank book?

> There's a lot of information distributed for free in
> electronic form, but you can choose to purchase it
> verbatim as a hard copy.

That's a choice the publisher makes.  The fact that
some people do so does not make it an imperative for
the rest of the universe.

> The answers to most of our questions are contained
> in a book somewhere.

Which wasn't my point, as I am sure you are aware.

If you can obtain your answers from outside a book,
then you have no incentive to buy the book (if those
particular answers are all you want).

> As I stated before, I'm not actually asking for
> specific pages out of a specific book, although I
> may have unintentionally come off that way.

Understood.  And no hard feelings or anything.  This
is more of a philosophial discussion for me at this
point, but it does apply to most of us here on the
list, who crave information that is hard-to-find and
often expensive to purcahse from others.

> I have no objection to the fact that someone decided
> to create a product and protect their interest in
> it.  The J1850 protocol is an industry standard,
> however.  I don't want someone's proprietary
> software, I just want the elusive PWM protocol
> specifications so I can develop my own software and
> share it.

An industry standard is probably registered with the
SAE somewhere.  It's also documented at...  The patent
office!  :D  You can probably find the standard via a
patent search online.

=====
| Adam Wade                       1990 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) |
|   http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/bc/espresso_doppio/lst?.dir=/   |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |

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