[Diy_efi] digifant woes
Richards, Sean
Sean.Richards at diageo.com
Fri Jan 3 13:11:21 GMT 2003
i had problems and still do with my a2 and now i have made a leap into the
relm of the 1.8t 20vturbo. wish me luck guys. this swap is bound to be a
headache.
-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org]
Sent: 02 January 2003 23:17
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #475 - 14 msgs
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question (Martin Lebeau)
2. RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #473 - 11 msgs (Patrick Cahill)
3. Re: Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question (Jeffrey Engel)
4. Re: Re: over a million turbos at that time and not one
failure (Matt Porritt)
5. Re: Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question (Gerhard Mueller)
6. Re: Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] This turbo assist stuff, Questions! (arnie)
7. RE: This turbo assist stuff, suggestions (Mike Schwall)
8. RE: Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question (Mike Schwall)
9. RE: Bruce? (Daniel R. Nicoson)
10. Re: This turbo assist stuff, suggestions (Bernd Felsche)
11. Re: Digifant (Bernd Felsche)
12. Re: Digifant (was:This turbo assist stuff...) (Bernd Felsche)
13. Area under torque curve? (Mike Diehl)
--__--__--
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 14:52:34 -0500
From: Martin Lebeau <siffleu at siffleu.com>
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
I want to do it myself !
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Engel" <jengeltx at yahoo.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question
> If you're near an Autozone, they can clear your codes
> for you.
>
> Jeff Engel
> --- Martin Lebeau <siffleu at siffleu.com> wrote:
> > how can I equip myself with that ? ( to clear that
> > kind of history)
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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Message: 2
From: "Patrick Cahill" <patc at opposition.tv>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:20:51 +1100
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #473 - 11 msgs
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
That air temp sensor number is 0280130039. We use them a lot in race
applications.
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 05:47:19 -0500
From: Dave Dahlgren <ddahlgren at snet.net>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] AT & MAP
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
0-280-130-023 Bosch water temp sensor 12mm thread can be modified for 1/8
pipe
2k at room temp
0-261-220-002 Bosch air temp hi speed built like the GM part with exposed
sensing element 1k at room temp
0-280-XXX-039 Bosch air temp normal (sealed element) 2k at room temp
I suspect the XXX is 130.. will check further on it.
Dave
--__--__--
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 13:52:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeffrey Engel <jengeltx at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
O I C. Have you considered purchasing an OBDII
interface? That would allow you to monitor, program
and clear most codes.
Mind you, I'm no expert, but when the Mazda Dealership
wanted $90 just to read the codes, I purchased an
assembled unit for ~$80 and did the diagnosis myself.
If that isn't DIY enough, you can even purchase OBDII
components and assemble one from parts.
(www.elmelectronics.com)
HTH,
Jeff Engel
--- Martin Lebeau <siffleu at siffleu.com> wrote:
> I want to do it myself !
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeffrey Engel" <jengeltx at yahoo.com>
>
> > If you're near an Autozone, they can clear your
> codes
> > for you.
> >
> > Jeff Engel
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 12:03:53 +1300
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: over a million turbos at that time and not one
failure
From: Matt Porritt <porrittm at anet.co.nz>
To: DIY-EFI <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
I'd presume that '0 failures' was while the cars were under warrantee and
unmolested by people like ourselves with bleed valves etc.
NOTE: you were discussing 'brittle failures'.. That=B9s a little different
to
the actual failure of the turbos is it not? (wheel loosing its bond a
brittle failure?)
--=20
Matt Porritt
RC Race Cars and Supplies
ICQ #22776813
On 3/1/03 7:02 AM Jay Wallace wrote
> Phil,
> The discussion at the time was an exchange with scientific representative=
s
> from the Japanese Ceramics trade organization JFCC (Japan Fine Ceramics
> Center) As I recall, it is a quasi-governmental trade organization that
> also does research. Anyway, their story of > 1M ceramic turbos in the fie=
ld
> without a single failure was in line with what we heard from scientists a=
t
> Toyota and NGK. Note: we were considering brittle failure mechanisms and
> statistics for CERAMICS and would not have included bearing failure or th=
e
> such. I also suspect that these numbers didn't include data from foreign
> object damage, track cars or heavily modded cars, but it was not discusse=
d.
> I don't think that they were spinning anything but I guess that I am also
> naive.
--__--__--
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 22:25:51 +0200
From: Gerhard Mueller <gerhard at tricom.han.de>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Best priced scantool I know is that from Alex Peper.
Look at http://www.obd-2.com
Gerhard
> I want to do it myself !
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeffrey Engel" <jengeltx at yahoo.com>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question
>
>
>> If you're near an Autozone, they can clear your codes
>> for you.
>>
>> Jeff Engel
>> --- Martin Lebeau <siffleu at siffleu.com> wrote:
>>> how can I equip myself with that ? ( to clear that
>>> kind of history)
>>
--__--__--
Message: 6
From: "arnie" <arnie_ at charter.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] This turbo assist stuff, Questions!
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 17:44:05 -0600
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Won't give any suggestions as to what to put into exhaust, but for
intake, look to achieve in your case, 7-8 oz. (app.225-250 ml.) /min.
Don't be afraid to flog and/or experiment. If attempting to 'drown'
motor, :) consider a max of 20% (of total combined liquid charge)
being H2O. YMMV
GAS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ohio Benz" <ohiobenz at yahoo.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 11:30 AM
Subject: Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] This turbo assist stuff, Questions!
> Jumping back into the original topic - turbo spooling
> assist....
> I would like to try the WI into the exhaust manifold
> prior to turbo. Plans had been for WI into the intake
> post IC, after about 5-7 psi was reached. (the CR is
> 10:1) So it would almost seem a natural to shoot WI
> into the exhaust under WOT until reaching 5 psi, then
> shuttling the valve over to intake injection.
> Does anyone have any suggestions for flow rate?? -
> running a 2.0 with agressive ported 16v head and a T3
> 63AR turbine housing. Pump will be a 100psi Shurflo.
>
> Thanks!!
--__--__--
Message: 7
From: "Mike Schwall" <mschwall at cox.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] This turbo assist stuff, suggestions
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 18:41:20 -0600
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Excellent find!
Mike
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org
> [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Bernd Felsche
> Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 9:57 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] This turbo assist stuff, suggestions
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 01, 2003 at 10:30:54PM -0600, Mike Schwall wrote:
> > Correct, the materials are applied using plasma spray
> process. Though
> > I've heard of it used in power generation turbines, not sure exactly
> > what coating materials are used in the military and high output
> > commercial engines. The PW4056 is one of the available
> engines used in
> > the 747 (thrust depends on 747 series). The PW4056 is a
> 56,000lb thrust
> > model with 94" diameter fan.
>
> See http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/engines.html
> and http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/prod_info/tech/threeshaft.htm
>
> --
> /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
> \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
> X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature
> / \ and postings | to help me spread!
--__--__--
Message: 8
From: "Mike Schwall" <mschwall at cox.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 18:47:55 -0600
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Find an OBDII scanner that incorporates that function. Many different
types are available from adapters that plug into your laptop and use
software to standalone units. Do a search on the internet as there are
plenty to choose from.
Mike
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org
> [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Martin Lebeau
> Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 11:22 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question
>
>
> how can I equip myself with that ? ( to clear that kind of history)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Schwall" <mschwall at cox.net>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 11:07 PM
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Chrysler ODB2 / VSS question
>
>
> > True, type A codes are single instance problems that
> triggers a code &
> > MIL and creates a stored history code. This history should
> be erasable
> > using an OBD scanner. Type A codes are caused by certain severe
> > SNIP
> > emissions equipment, but I doubt the lack of speed
> > information is going
> > to cause a major emissions problem. YMMV, IMO
> >
> > Mike
--__--__--
Message: 9
From: "Daniel R. Nicoson" <A6intruder at adelphia.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Bruce?
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:59:36 -0500
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Bruce is usually listening in on the EECtuner at yahoogroups.com. He keeps us
Ford guys on the straight and narrow!
Dan Nicoson
-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org]On Behalf
Of Programmer
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 10:24 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Bruce?
Just talked to him a couple days ago--he's doing great. (Despite health
concerns of course)...Like Bill mentioned, he keeps playing with the GN !
Lyndon
----- Original Message -----
From: <bill.shurvinton at nokia.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 2:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Bruce?
Bruce is doing OK (or was a month ago). He just got fed up with this list
and un-subbed.
Meanwhile the GN continues to be improved.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: ext Mike Diehl [mailto:mdiehl at dominion.dyndns.org]
Sent: 02 January 2003 09:04
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] Bruce?
Hi all.
I've been lurking for a few months now. There used to be a guy on this list
named Bruce who had been in poor health. I've not seen any recent posts
from
him. Is he OK?
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:29:37 +0800
From: Bernd Felsche <bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] This turbo assist stuff, suggestions
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
On Thu, Jan 02, 2003 at 06:41:20PM -0600, Mike Schwall wrote:
> > [mailto:diy_efi-admin at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Bernd Felsche
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 01, 2003 at 10:30:54PM -0600, Mike Schwall wrote:
> > > Correct, the materials are applied using plasma spray process.
> > > Though I've heard of it used in power generation turbines, not
> > > sure exactly what coating materials are used in the military
> > > and high output commercial engines.
> > See http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/engines.html
> > and http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/prod_info/tech/threeshaft.htm
> Excellent find!
Thanks. I found them interesting. Google came up with it's usual
million hits in a second but the two shown caught my eye.
Nice thrust range on the R-R engine, eh?
I'm wondering how long the metal on the turbine blades stands up to
the direct heat if the ceramic coating does fracture and expose the
metal to the hot gases... 12 to 16 hours is a long flight (e.g.
SIN-LHR).
When you consider that some of the first axial flow turbojets
deployed into service (Jumo) had a design life of around 10 hours
(IIRC) the current generation are incredibly reliable. Still, the
Jumo engines' turbine blades were of pressed steel with little alloy
(material shortage) but introduced internal cooling air flows.
Brings me back back on-topic - sort of... are the "ceramic turbos"
solid ceramic turbines or are they coated?
Are there any turbos with internal cooling air flows?
It'd present an engine management problem (mixture feedback) if the
cooling air was "fresh" air and it leaked into the exhaust gas
stream with sensing done downstream of the turbo. Cooled EGR doesn't
fare much better - it'd tend to dampen out fluctuations in oxygen
content and introduce unwanted due to the long EGR cooling path.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature
/ \ and postings | to help me spread!
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:57:16 +0800
From: Bernd Felsche <bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Digifant
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 12:54:56AM +0800, Mike wrote:
Get some sleep, Mike! :-)
> As the car has had it from day one then its not worth pursuing
> unless it troubles you enough to get an aftermarket ECU. If it
I'm planning to build one - eventually. Not having much luck with
"hardware" right now so I'll keep that project shelved a little
longer.
> was my car from new or almost new it would very soon drive me
> to distraction, and you've put up with this for so long, yet
> its ironic your comment about 10 million not being a problem
> as its a design in feature ~`:o mmmm ?
The SAE papers published by VW at the time discuss the control
strategies - which appear to extract the maximum torque from
whatever fuel is in the system. At the same time, increasingly
strict emission requirements as well as the desire to minimise fuel
consumption (tending to operate on the lean side of stoich) pushed
the envelope so that the knock boundary would be nearby.
Working within the limits of cheap processors at the time, Digifant
will ping and/or reduce power output depending on not just the fuel
but also ambient conditions as the Octane Number Requirement (ONR)
of especially the (10:1 and greater) high-compression engines
varies.
At low engine speeds, airflow is slow and any swirl/tumble that may
help to resuce detonation is also slow. I guess that the aggressive
mapping introduced by VW for low speeds was kept to allow the
benefits of high octane to be felt immediately; with audible pinging
being annoying but not destructive.
> Maybe it does need a suppression cap to ensure the knock sensor
> doesnt cause false readings by the ECU, ie. 'some' knock vs
> a 'bad knock signal, adding a suppressor cap in the right place
> may well be worth a try...
> Are you really sure its a feature of the car from new or almost
> new - have you ever swapped an ecu and 'bosch amp' and coil etc ?
ECU was swapped for a little test run; from a car without lambda
control but otherwise the same. Still pinged. So it's not just a
function of mixture control - ignition and mixture control were for
a long time distinctly separate (two micros; one Intel for ignition
and the other a Motorola for fuel) - only around 1990 were micros
sufficiently capable to merge the functions.
Volkswagen didn't indicate that the ignition side could influence
fuelling directly in any of their literature at the time; even
though temporary enrichment is one way of reducing or pinging at low
engine speeds.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature
/ \ and postings | to help me spread!
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 10:55:42 +0800
From: Bernd Felsche <bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Digifant (was:This turbo assist stuff...)
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
On Fri, Jan 03, 2003 at 01:01:51AM +0800, Mike wrote:
> At 10:45 PM 1/2/03 +0800, you wrote:
> >> I and other engineers can probably be safe to say they can
> >> guarantee that placing a good suppression cap from ignition +ve
> >> near your coil (if this is the positive ignition supply) to
> >> ground (also near your coil) wont do any damage but will
> >> improve dramatically the AC circuit your ECU and ignition amp
> >> is seeing !
> >The ECU doesn't see any of that.
> Huh !? Are you saying the ECU and coil are driven from separate
> supplies, dont think so - you have 'one' battery dont you and
> one alternator ?
Well, sort of. It's quite odd, really!
But I was referring mainly to the coil drive voltage.
The ECU is powered via relay contact direct from the battery bus
(30) on central electric; the main fuse/relay panel. The ignition
amplifier for some reason, is not powered via that relay, but
separately from the ignition-on bus (15) in the central electric;
and it gets there by detour through the ignition switch. (15) of
course drives the ECU relay coil.
If you think that odd - schematics for earlier cars show a 10A fuse
to power the ECU relay coil; and nothing else! Looks like the ECU
was originally powered entirely via the ignition switch and somebody
though better of it, putting a relay in to take the bulk of current.
But the coil is still running via the ignition switch!
Maybe that's deliberate - the extra cable length (inductance) may be
being used to isolate the ECU from voltage fluctuations induced by
the coil.
After all, the ECU and ignition amp are right next to each other and
it'd be unusual for VW not to simplify electrics (saving on wiring)
by powering ECU and ignition through the one relay and wire. They'd
had 6 years' practice building Mk2 Golfs by the time mine was built
and a year on the "new" electrics introduced in 1989.
> ECU +ve comes from ignition +ve, maybe through a relay, one side
> of your coil is switched from ground or switched from ignition +ve,
> hence the ECU does and will see disturbance on its supply voltage
> and via AC coupling will also see noise on its signal input
> lines depending on how well they are loomed...
If the quality (?) of the connectors is anything to go by, the loom
isn't brilliant. Then again; Audi seems/seemed to have the uncanny
knack of doing even worse with the same style of connectors - maybe
they had somebody from BMC designing their looms. :-)
Nevertheless; ignition and ECU looms are well separated. There are
only two direct connections; one via "chassis" (actually to battery
-ve terminal, each unit via its own chassis wire) and the other
being the ignition trigger signal.
Again, individual chassis wires connecting to the same point, from
the co-located ECU and amplifier to the battery over a metre away,
seems to indicate an attempt to keep the parts' supply voltages
somewhat electrically separated.
> >No. All the other Digifant Golfs do that when you don't give them
> >enough Octane. It's a feature.
> Well the only direct solution is either reprogram the old ECU,
> get another ECU from a later model that didnt have this problem
> which is compatible or throw it away firmly and get an after
> market ECU.
The "problem" is an artifact of how the ECU adapts to varying ONR.
I think I can do better than an off the shelf after-market.
Integrated fuel and ignition control - not just sharing the same box
- is one approach.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus!
X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature
/ \ and postings | to help me spread!
--__--__--
Message: 13
From: Mike Diehl <mdiehl at dominion.dyndns.org>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:52:48 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Area under torque curve?
Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Hi all.
I've been thinking....
If you have a plot of acceleration over time, then the area under that curve
is speed at a given time. And the area under the "speed" curver over time
is
distance traveled at a given time.
Now, if you had a plot of torque over RPM, is there a similar interpretation
of the area under such a curve? The reason I ask is that I know/read that
the area under the torque curve is a good/best indication of an engine's
overall performance.
--
Mike Diehl
'87 MR-2, 7A-Ge, Hand-bent headers
'96 4-Runner, Bone Stock
'90 Corolla, disguised as a Geo Prism.
--__--__--
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