[Diy_efi] Re: Hydrogen Powered Vehicle

[Phil Hunter]

[ I'm late to the party due to mail issues and being out of town]

Robert W. wrote:
> Hi all, 
> I'm new to the list, but have been trying to figure 
> out what it would take to convert a car to run on
> hydrogen.  I thought it might be similiar to 
> Natural Gas, but I wanted to ask some experts, if 
> they thought maybe a fuel injection system would 
> work with a modified EPROM. Or something like that.
> Just a thought, 
> -Rob

Normally I wouldn't bother to de-lurk for someone who clearly hasn't done
their homework, but after seeing all the F.U.D. and disinformation in the
replies, I guess I'll make an exception and invest the time in a reply 
( and add to the nearly 50 Spams a day I get thanx to the DIY-EFI archives
alone ).

It amuses me that actor/politicians such as the Govinator of Calif., and
even High School students have a better understanding of H2 than some of
the allegedly technical folks on this list.  Even Greg H., whom I used to
have a good deal of respect for, doesn't have his hydrogen facts straight.

I've been studying H2 for about 9 months now, so I'm no expert, but I'm at
least as expert as anyone who has replied so far, except for Garrett perhaps.
I'm mainly interested from a motorhead's perspective for the technical
challenges, but I'm also looking at the money. Every couple of days a billion
dollars leaves the US to buy oil, if we could cut that in half, we could have
1000 new millionaires a week, every week. I wanna be one of those millionaires,
especially since I'm underemployed at the moment, and the foreseeable future
is looking rather bleak. So, yeah, I'm an advocate, and I'm learning a lot
about EFI and engines in general, fuel cells really don't interest me that
much, but that's where the real money is. The "greeny" factor is just a bonus.

2 comments for Rob:

Natural Gas has the least amount of carbon and thus is the closest to H2
of the hydrocarbon fuels, so converting to H2 is similar, but with somewhat
higher costs, as converting to CNG. Expect costs to be in the $1000's, not
$10's or $100's. Might wanna research something called Hythane.

Without at least an injector swap, it's unlikely you'll get enough H2 into
the engine to get above idle, so more than just an EPROM swap is needed.
You've got a LOT of homework ahead to do.

I've converted an old 2hp Briggs & ScrapIron to run on hydrogen. It was
easy, just a simple modification to the carburetor, rent a welding tank
of H2, buy an H2 specific regulator on eBay, and plumb it up. My inspiration
came from here:
http://www.clean-air.org/Hydrogen%20Wagon/Hydrogen%20Wagon.htm
This engine works, I've seen it run, indoors in a classroom, and it was
surprising quiet. Plus it didn't backfire, mine does occasionally. Study the
carb mod carefully until you fully understand the beautiful simplicity of it
and how it combines the best features of both Spark and Diesel engines.

A lot of my initial questions about running on H2 were answered here:
http:/www.clean-air.org/Hydrogen%20Cobra%20Story/Hydrogen%20Cobra.htm

Several possibilties why my engine backfires are explained here:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Hydrogen is arguably as safe or safer than any hydrocarbon fuel. It's
lighter than air, so any leaks dissipate up and away, getting leaner and
leaner and less likely to combust. It also takes a higher temp to light
it off. Hydrocarbons are heavier than air, they sink to the ground, and
get richer and richer, more and more likely to become a combustible mixture
as a leak continues.

The biggest safety issue, to me, I haven't read about anywhere.  Basically
H2 EFI is throttle-by-wire. What happens if for any reason, such as a s/w
bug or electronics or mechanical failure, you get full fuel flow?  With a
hydrocarbon fueled engine it'd flood and die, but w/ H2 you'd have a full
torgue runaway engine until you hit the rev limiter. Any DIYer had better
give that a LOT of thought and have an automatic, redundant way to control
the engine if you intend to put a vehicle on a public road.  Anything less
is negligence and you deserve jail time if you hurt someone. In addition to
the ease and inexpense, this is another reason I'm just playing w/ a 1
cylinder stationary engine. Since I don't really KNOW what I'm doing, I put
a lot of thought into what things might go wrong. For all my tests, I have
some form of "Dead Man's Switch", so that if something does go drastically
wrong, I can let go of the switch, run away, and the engine will quit.

Yeah, the above could be considered F.U.D. too, take it any way you like,
but I do have the goal of driving an H2 fueled car I've built, hopefully
sooner than 30 years from now. My dream is an attention grabber of some
sort, super or turbocharged Miller Cycle engine, "Got Hydrogen?" across
the rear window :)

My "technology roadmap" for the B&S is basically to use MegaSquirt and it's
variants such as MegaSpark to EFI and control ignition (the B&S has fixed
~30* timing, which is too much for H2). Far beyond my current programming
skills, I want to investigate having 2 MS's doing checks and balances for
the above safety issue.

On to the replies:

Lindsay P. wrote:

> Some countries use CNG (compressed natural gas) for vehicles, this is gas
> derived direct from the groud and scrubbed of CO2.  This is basically dirty
> hydrogen, so how can it be any less safe than this or propane?.

My cousin tells me he rode in an H2 powered taxi in Kuala Lumpur (sp?).

The term "Dirty Hydrogen" generally refers to H2 made from Nuclear, Coal, or
other polluting sources, not the purity of the H2 itself. "Clean Hydrogen"
is made from renewable energy sources.


> And Yes, unless you live in a geothermal wonderland (ie Iceland/New
> Zealand/Japan) then producing Hydrogen means using fossil fuel... 

Ever hear of making H2 w/ electricity? Ever hear of making electricity from
sunlight, or wind, or ocean waves, or dams, or ... Also, bacteria can make
H2 directly from biomass.

Greg H. wrote:

> ... the fact that contact with hydrogen can render any parts containing
> iron (this includes virtually ALL steels) as brittle as glass...

Riddle me this, Batman. I have a STEEL welding tank of H2 at about 2000PSI,
first inspection date I can see sez 1957, making the tank 50 or so years old.
So if the tank is so totally brittle by now, then why would they keep STAMPING
the inspection dates into the tank? Steel tanks have been used to store H2
since 1898. Fact.

Bobby E. wrote:

> ...BMW has built several 7 series hydrogen cars...

http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hla.htm
http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovations/articles/466906/article.html

Might wanna look into the Ford Model U also. Optimized for H2, it's
supercharged, double intercooled, 12:1 compression, and I suspicion it's
using a Miller Cycle instead of Otto.
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/news/model_u.html
http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/article_71.shtml

> ... Then you could program the chip to be open the right amount of time.

Initial experiments using a 19lb/hr gasoline injector on my B&S took 100%
Duty Cycle @ ~40PSI gas pressure, maybe ~3000RPM, no load. Gonna take an
injector optimized for gaseous fuel to be practical in an engine bigger than
a few HP/cyl. In addition to those mentioned by Garrett, Keihin claims to
make injectors for the Natural Gas Honda Civic GX: http://www.keihin-us.com

Joel D. wrote:

> I actually know of a person who did this...

Roy McAlister has been running a '78 Dodge pickup on H2 for 25 years.

Also, the "private citizen" Garrett mentions w/ the S-10 is (or was) a High
School student. Has the apparatus to make H2 in the truck bed. Damn
over-achievers ;)

Greg H. wrote:

> CNG and LPG do NOT cause hydrogen embrittlement. H2 DOES.

Nope. H2 does not. I know diddly about chemistry, but I know it's ionized
hydrogen (just H, not H2) that you have to worry about.

> Perhaps you would be good enough to store some H2 in a steel cylinder for a
> month or two, then knock it over ??

No worries, as long as the safety cap was on, so that if the valve broke the H2
would be vented equally in 3 directions and at right angles to the venting so
the cylinder wouldn't jet away. I'd have no concerns about the tank grenading,
if that's your implication.

Garrett B. wrote:

[lotsa interesting info deleted]
> ... Nuclear is another low-pollution source but is a political hot button.

I wouldn't call waste that is radioactive for 1000's of years "low pollution".
If you look at the total costs, Nuclear can never pay for itself. Also, if
you want other countries to have a Hydrogen Economy so they don't want to
go to war w/ you over oil, do you really want them to base it on Nuclear power?
I don't.

Peter J. wrote:

> Caution!
> For those of you wanting to play with Hydrogen... remember the Hindenburg.
> There is a reason we now have Helium filled balloons.

As Bill W. points out, the Hindenburg PROBABLY would have burned and crashed
even if it had been filled w/ helium. Supposedly another blimp did 2 years
prior. http://www.clean-air.org/hindenberg.htm
http://www.esdjournal.com/articles/blame.htm

What you probably won't easily find out in these politically correct times is,
at the time, the U.S. had a virtual monopoly on helium, leaving us w/ the
U.S. propaganda against Nazi propaganda legacy of "Remember the Hindenburg".
H2 F.U.D.

> There are still fortunes to be made burning gas.

And humans still to be killed so that we can keep the oil flowing our way to
make those fortunes.

Phil L. wrote:

> I'm especially interested in the lean burn combustion characteristics and
> the tail pipe emissions.

I put a "see thru" spark plug on the engine to see what the combustion flame
looked like, to my big surprise, there wasn't any. With the engine running,
all you could see was the spark jumping the gap. Probably gives off Ultra
Violet light, but I'm just guessing. I'm curious if this will change when I
put a load on the engine.

The H2 powered Shelby Cobra link above may have the info you're looking for.

Greg H. wrote:

> It doesn't even DREAM of being more efficient !!

Engines running on H2 are automagically more efficient, due to lower pumping
and thermal losses.

>> The nice thing is Hydrogen is clean.

> Oh REALLY ?? Have we neglected the fact that, in some circumstances, water
> vapor is approximately 2 to 3 HUNDRED times as powerful a greenhouse gas as
> CO2 is ????

A gallon of gas has more hydrogen atoms than a gallon of liquid H2. Not
intuitive but a fact nonetheless. Burning a gallon of gas produces more than
a gallon of water (vapor) out the tail pipe. On a H/C gallon vs. H2 gallon
basis, the point is moot. And since H2 is more efficient and doesn't emit
carbon-anything, we'll have less green house gases than burning hydrocarbons.
Fact. And clouds reflect sunlight back into space, cooling the earth.

Garrett B. wrote:

> Hydrogen burns very hot which is why we run the extremely lean AF ratios.

Yes & no. You run lean because you can. EngineFundamentals101: You can get
a given BMEP by heating a little bit of air to a high temperature or a lot
more air to a lower temp. Fuel costs money, air is free. You take advantage
of H2's combustibility range of 180:1 to 34:1 A/F ratio (on the lean side,
out to 4:1 rich ) to run un-throttled (w/o a butterfly) and lean, both for
efficiency. If the temps are low enough, the Nitrogen and Oxygen in the air
won't combine to form NOx. This is one of the main reasons H2 fueled engines
are often supercharged, to get more air in to get the power out w/o the heat
that makes NOx.

My personal H2 bookmark list is approaching 200 URLs, plenty of H2 info out
there if y'all bother to look. Here's a couple more links I found informative:
http:/www.h2carco.com/20myths.pdf ( go up to the top level and look around too )
http:/www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/related.htm

Oh, and there are a couple companies converting SUV's to run on H2. "Only in
America..." ;)

rgds,
(yet another) Phil
(digest)

Whenever you hear "Politically Correct", substitute the word "lie" and notice
how close to the TRUTH you get.


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