[Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs... "Smart Plug"

Ernest Buckler ebuckler
Mon Jun 27 15:51:51 UTC 2005 

Top reply so it doesn't get lost: Google "Smart Plugs" for additional 
material - they are similar, now running well in aircraft, NO SPARK event AT 
ALL.  I have no comm'l interest, merely passing on the lead to this related 
product. Much more data available for/from them than Greenfire.
Ernie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Astrona" <amdcpu at hot.ee>
To: <dh at busb.com>; <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics


> Where else could we read your articles?
>
> Are you also against higher energy coils and similar :)?
>
> Isn't this "pocketing" useless with hi-performance camshafts, when valve
> timing isn't live-adjustable. Isn't there a reverse flow into port on 
> these
> last degrees of IVC event at max power conditions?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <dh at busb.com>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 4:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics
>
>
>> A Rose by any other name smells red.  We make associations based on
> previous
>> experience.
>>
>> Enough,
>>
>> Keeping a 'clean' mixture near the spark plug is essential to high
>> performance engines.
>> Keeping a 'clean' mixture near the spark plug is essential to low
> emissions
>> engines.
>> Keeping a 'clean' mixture near the spark plug is essential to high
>> efficiency engines.
>>
>> One of the 'tricks' to good flowing heads is to put a little curvature
> just
>> above the exhaust valve seat so that there is flow across the top of the
>> chamber as the intake valve is closing.  Because of intertial of the gas
>> there is quite a bit of flow in the last few thousanths of valve lift
> before
>> close.  Without the little lip above the valve seat to the outside of the
>> bore the intake gas flows into the chamber at the angle of the valve face
>> (and still does even with the lip below about .1" with a high performance
>> valve and .15" with a stock valve.)  The idea is to provide the plug area
>> with a combustion mixture.
>>
>> This is sometimes called a pocket port by those that think the idea is to
>> create turbulence at high flow levels.  If done correctly you can read 
>> the
>> burn signature in the vicinity of the spark plug after just a few (less
> than
>> 10) seconds of running - even at idle.  The reward is NO misses at any
>> throttle opening.
>>
>> Don't do this with Vortec heads - different theory.
>>
>> PF (pre flame) comments.
>>
>> 1) There is plenty of turbulence in a combustion chamber.
>>
>> 2) The intake charge doesn't blow on the plug, there is an eddy that will
>> reach the plug.
>>
>> 3) There is nearly a half revolution between intake event and plug fire,
> but
>> compression tends to reduce eddies due to change in chamber shape (nearly
> a
>> pancake to a long (relatively) cylinder and back to a pancake) so during
> and
>> immediately after the intake event is the only chance you have for
>> deterministic control of the intake charge.
>>
>> 4) You have to have a per-event method of determining misses - see this
>> board about three years ago.  A dyno cannot reliably determine occasional
>> misses and the improvement is tenths or less in a quarter mile.
>>
>> 5) The reason for this post is to assure readers that there is QUITE A 
>> LOT
>> of movement in the combustion chamber and it is determined MOSTLY by the
>> dynamic changes in shape of the chamber.
>>
>> 6) Static changes in shape of the combustion chamber have only a second 
>> or
>> third order effect.
>>
>> 7) Any combustion chamber change will affect and effect many factors, but
>> probably not greatly.  Once the intake valve closes and the chamber shape
>> changes from nearly square (height = diameter) cylinder to a very thin
>> pancake height = diameter / (6 to 10) vertical swirl and eddy have ceased
>> and only horizontal swirl remains. (now do you get the donut shape void 
>> in
>> production pistons?)
>>
>> 8) Plugs have a pretty good environment to start with.  If the mixture
> near
>> the spark is not pretty close to right, the flame never propagates under
>> high power (high gas flow) conditions.  Too rich and the excess fuel puts
>> out the flame,  too lean and the spark doesn't have enough power to 
>> ignite
>> the flame (now do you get the reason for .060" plug gaps in production
>> engines?)
>>
>> 9) It would be pretty difficult to get better than the production guys at
>> starting and sustaining combustion reliably, and isn't that the 
>> objective?
>> They are about the only folks that can measure the effects, and emissions
>> requirements are keeping them honest.  We know from SUK fuel mileage
> numbers
>> that they must be kept honest, or they will sell us out in a heartbeat.
>>
>> Question - how can you get burnable fuel to a recessed spark plug?
>>
>> Flame on!
>>
>> One more thing,
>>
>> We hold these truths to be self evident.
>>
>> If there is no pressure gradient, there is no increase in flow and any
>> system or any model.
>>
>> All other things being held constant, eddies will increase in volume and
>> decrease in energy, given time and not very much of it.
>>
>> In a fluid, any change in direction is accompanied in a significant
>> reduction in kinetic energy.
>>
>> Not all combustion is self sustaining.
>>
>> All velocity gradients are reduced as the fluid approaches a fixed
> surface.
>> Especially in the vicinity of about 0.1" at normal pressures and
>> temperatures (and pressure gradients.)
>>
>> Oh and one last point. Because of the (relatively) cool surface of the
>> chamber wall the mixture at the wall doesn't burn as it never becomes
>> energetic enough to sustain combustion.  Therefore the wall remains 
>> 'wet.'
>> If the 'wetness' is fuel the wall is always awash with fuel and shiny. 
>> If
>> the 'wetness' is oil, the visconsity (or maybe surface tension?) causes
> the
>> oil to remain in place, crack and loose all its volatiles (enough 
>> jargon?)
>> You can tell if the plug is getting fuel by 'reading' it.  I will have 
>> the
>> correct color that indicates that it is light enough (enough fuel) and 
>> not
>> too dark (too much fuel)
>>
>> In short, you can tell if your engine will benefit from a green plug by
>> merely removing it and looking at its color.  Oh, and there is already a
>> chamber in the plug. If your plug is "too hot" the chamber is too deep,
> and
>> if the chamber is "too cold" the chamber is too deep.
>>
>> Speaking of too deep, this plug stuff is fairly complicated.  The 
>> material
>> is a first order effect, the shape is a first order effect, the starting
>> temperature is a first order effect, the idle temperature is a first 
>> order
>> effect, the power temperature is a first order effect, the location is a
>> first order effect (and far, far more important than anything discussed
> here
>> previously), the available fuel is a first order effect, cam timing is a
>> first order effect, piston crown is a first order effect, head material 
>> is
> a
>> first order effect (affects temperature primarily) intake manifold design
> is
>> a first order effect (affects the intake charge velocity which does in
>> actuality effect providing a 'clean charge' to the plug and so forth.
>>
>> Here's a thought puzzle.  Can you imagine that this was ever tried 
>> before?
>> You need to work on that imagination.
>>
>> So, my challenge is - let's see the claimed data!  All of the data, what
>> type engine, what circumstances.
>>
>> I seem to remember prior art.  That's lawyerese for 'been done before.'
>> I've looked at Japenese art - seems I remember something similar, but 
>> with
>> an injector.  In the '70's.  In fact, the art seems VERY familiar.  Let's
>> see, there is a pre-combustion chamber, a venturi passage, a plurality of
>> members and communication between inanimate objects.  Oh yeah, the Honda
>> patents with the pre-combustion chambers.  They actuall put some of that
>> into production.  Know what they use now?  I'm not sure, but I think it's
> an
>> ordinary run-of-the-mill spark plug.
>>
>> Oh, no, wait - I remember.  We had those things you put on the end of
> spark
>> plugs that would prevent fouling about fourty years ago.  Screwed up
> engine
>> operation but you didn't have to change the plug too often.  Seems the
>> cylinder was washed with gasoline due to absence of combustion.  Why?
>> Because there was no way to get the fuel air mixture to the plug.  What
>> burned in the hole, stayed there.  Eventually it would work its way out
> and
>> the plug would fire again.  Those worked better if you drilled some holes
> in
>> them, but then the plug would start fouling again.  So do you know what
>> people did when the anti foul plugs didn't work?  They installed a hotter
>> plug or bought better gas and voila the problem vanished.
>>
>> Are the claims available in English?  Why not?  If it were a patent, it
>> would then be readily available.
>>
>> Is it because some of the world's patent systems still expect the patent
> to
>> be proveable?
>>
>> What is the patent number?  It might be cool to look it up directly.
> There
>> is a US patent, right?
>>
>> Cut pollution by 40%?  Not even on a lawn mower.
>>
>> Increase torque.  How much?
>>
>> I'll bet even money that some otherwise wonderful engines won't even 
>> start
>> with 'Greenfire' installed.
>>
>> Know who invented the modern spark plug as we've known it?  Smokey Unick,
> an
>> anti-academic.  I'll virtually guarantee that the green spark plug was
>> invented before, and before that.
>>
>> Think about it.
>>
>> APPLICATION AU85/00352 is a patent application, was filed ten years ago.
> The
>> patent would be a six or seven digit number.  For example:
>>
>> The application AU89/00352 which, is in regard to Improvements in
>> Sensitivity and Selectivity of Ion Channel Membrane Biosensors, was
> granted
>> and given a patent number of 633839.
>>
>> diy-efi you've been scammed and you sucked it in hook, line and sinker.
>> Some of you guys must watch the Home Shopping Network.
>>
>> Next we'll be getting Elvis sightings reported on diy_efi.
>>
>> And replies.
>>
>> And 'academics' explaining how it's possible.
>>
>> And confirmations.
>>
>> And web pages.
>>
>> And ...
>>
>> A technological improvement colored green smells like....  Yeah, like a
>> scam.  Green is the favorite color of con artists.  They think that it
>> represents money. It does - to them.
>>
>> Adam, I wrote this reply before I say any of yours.  Hang in there, sir.
>> And if anybody wants to throw degrees, I've got a couple from accredited
>> schools.  If they want to throw experience I worked for Delco before and
>> after they were Delphi and someone they want to throw garbage .... bring
> it
>> on, although I might be regarded as an amateur in this venue - I'm a 
>> quick
>> learner and enjoy a challenge.
>>
>>
>> dh
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "CMorEVB" <cathyanded at netscape.ca>
>> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 3:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics
>>
>>
>> > Thanks Mike.  Looking forward to your reply after the weekend.
>> >
>> > Have a good one.
>> >
>> > Vic
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
>> > To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>> > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 8:02 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics
>> >
>> >
>> > > At 06:27 AM 25/06/05, you wrote:
>> > > >Mike, I'd sure like to read that explanation when you have time to
> type
>> > it
>> > > >up.  Thanks for clearing up my wrong thinking in relating gases to
>> > > >hydraulics.  They are not the same and I hadn't had my morning 
>> > > >coffee
>> yet
>> > > >when I wrote that.
>> > >
>> > > No problem <hrrrrmmm> - I thought you might have been Adam Wade
>> > > in disguise there for a moment <chuckle>...
>> > >
>> > > Actually, you've raised an interesting point which hadn't occurred to
> me
>> > since
>> > > your post, Adam may think the gas in the plug region is 
>> > > incompressible
>> > > or he may have cast the umbrella of hydraulics over a fluid dynamics
> gas
>> > > compressibility issue hence his unwillingness to shift position 
>> > > <sigh>
>> > >
>> > > We'll see if he wakes up to respond to my most recent post ;-)
>> > >
>> > > Middle of intense feasibility study at moment, put basic thought
>> > experiment
>> > > past my eldest and he made some suggestions, after w/end I think has 
>> > > I
>> > > have so much work on,
>> > >
>> > > Thanks Vic,
>> > >
>> > > Rgds
>> > >
>> > > Mike
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >Vic
>> > > >----- Original Message ----- 
>> > > >From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
>> > > >To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>> > > >Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 4:19 AM
>> > > >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> At 06:57 AM 24/06/05, you wrote:
>> > > >> >Mike, I had always believed that in hydraulics the pressure was
>> equal
>> > in
>> > > >all
>> > > >> >areas so how could there be flow?
>> > > >>
>> > > >> We're not talking hydraulics, we are not talking incompressible
>> fluids,
>> > > >> the gases in the combustion chamber are compressible. Though even
> in
>> > > >> hydraulics whenever there is a pressure gradient - even a small 
>> > > >> one
>> in
>> > > >> an incompressible fluid, there is more than enough potential for
>> flow.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> >The only place I can see flow occuring is near the valves where
> the
>> > > >mixture
>> > > >> >enters and exits.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Is this comment based on your view we were talking hydraulics ?
>> > > >>
>> > > >> If there were only flow near the valves, how would the center of
> the
>> > > >combustion
>> > > >> chamber provide useful gas mixture for combustion or even have it
>> > > >exhausted ?
>> > > >>
>> > > >> (rhetorical question ;)
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I've come up with a thought experiment which should pretty well
>> > illustrate
>> > > >> what I perceive is happening with the greenfire plugs and 
>> > > >> hopefully
>> > will
>> > > >make
>> > > >> it clear for Adam Wade how it can work, it was actualyl easier 
>> > > >> than
> I
>> > > >thought,
>> > > >> provided he isnt just trolling and pretending not to understand
> that
>> > is,
>> > > >but have
>> > > >> heaps of other emails to wade through first ;-)
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> cheers
>> > > >>
>> > > >> mike
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> >Vic
>> > > >> >----- Original Message ----- 
>> > > >> >From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
>> > > >> >To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>> > > >> >Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 1:33 AM
>> > > >> >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs...
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >> At 05:46 PM 22/06/05, you wrote:
>> > > >> >> >Round and round in circles, changing statements at
>> > > >> >> >every turn, and refusing to provide any evidence
>> > > >> >> >whatsoever.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Adam,
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> What particular statement have I changed 'at every turn',
>> > > >> >> please paste the most glaring and obvious example so
>> > > >> >> its crystal where you think my position has changed  ?
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> And, do you think I really need to provide evidence there
>> > > >> >> are pressure changes and this cant be appreciated by inspection
> ?
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Since you ask me for evidence, can you provide evidence the
>> > > >> >> mechanism for flow is only diffusion  (rhetorical question ;) 
>> > > >> >> ?
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> >A waste of my (and everyone else's) time.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Not at all, I'm discovering what appears to be some sort
>> > > >> >> of mental block you have regarding pressure causing flow...
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> I had this sort of thing arise a couple of times during my
>> > > >> >> teaching career from 79 to 82 and it impressed on me the
>> > > >> >> huge difference there is in static vs dynamic abstractions
>> > > >> >> people entertain when learning something new. So it would
>> > > >> >> be helpful for me to add to my understanding why you hold
>> > > >> >> your position so tenaciously ;-)
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> >When you're ready to come up with evidence that
>> > > >> >> >supports your theory, which you claim is so basic
>> > > >> >> >everyone knows it (and which you should be able to
>> > > >> >> >show myriad examples of in mere seconds online), I'll
>> > > >> >> >give it a whirl.  Until then, good night.  :)
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Are you saying no one will accept pressure gives rise
>> > > >> >> to flow ?
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> It must be obvious to everyone that neither you or I are
>> > > >> >> (right now) unlikely in a position to make laboratory
>> measurements.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> The rationale and dialectic process that might converge to
>> > > >> >> something useful raises these questions:-
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> a.      Do you believe there is pressure change across
>> > > >> >>         the input of the plug ?
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>         simple yes or no will suffice here.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> b.      If you believe there is no pressure change across the
>> > > >> >>         plug can you articulate why you believe this ?
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> c.      If however, you believe there is a pressure change
>> > > >> >>         then can you articulate why this would not result in
> flow
>> ?
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> .
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Bill Washington did an admirable job of an even handed attempt
>> > > >> >> to illustrate the issue of pressure for you, yet your response
>> isnt
>> > > >> >> helpful, not logical and a bit of slap in his face, I really
>> suggest
>> > > >> >> you have another look at his post. In the meantime I'll
> construct
>> > > >> >> a thought experiment, good exercise, I guess as I havent done
>> > > >> >> this for 20 years since I last had students at uni ~`:o)
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Dont hold your breath though, I'm on 9 other tech groups and
>> > > >> >> emails come in thick and fast...
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Regards from
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Mike Massen
>> > > >> >> Perth, Western Australia
>> > > >> >> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
>> > > >> >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> >> Diy_efi mailing list
>> > > >> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> > > >> >> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >_______________________________________________
>> > > >> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> > > >> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> > > >> >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Regards from
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Mike Massen
>> > > >> Perth, Western Australia
>> > > >> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
>> > > >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>> > > >>
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> Diy_efi mailing list
>> > > >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> > > >> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> > > >
>> > > >_______________________________________________
>> > > >Diy_efi mailing list
>> > > >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> > > >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> > >
>> > > Regards from
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Mike Massen
>> > > Perth, Western Australia
>> > > VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
>> > > http://niche.iinet.net.au
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Diy_efi mailing list
>> > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> > > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Diy_efi mailing list
>> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>>
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