[Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics

[Astrona]

Where else could we read your articles?

Are you also against higher energy coils and similar :)?

Isn't this "pocketing" useless with hi-performance camshafts, when valve
timing isn't live-adjustable. Isn't there a reverse flow into port on these
last degrees of IVC event at max power conditions?



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dh at busb.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics


> A Rose by any other name smells red.  We make associations based on
previous
> experience.
>
> Enough,
>
> Keeping a 'clean' mixture near the spark plug is essential to high
> performance engines.
> Keeping a 'clean' mixture near the spark plug is essential to low
emissions
> engines.
> Keeping a 'clean' mixture near the spark plug is essential to high
> efficiency engines.
>
> One of the 'tricks' to good flowing heads is to put a little curvature
just
> above the exhaust valve seat so that there is flow across the top of the
> chamber as the intake valve is closing.  Because of intertial of the gas
> there is quite a bit of flow in the last few thousanths of valve lift
before
> close.  Without the little lip above the valve seat to the outside of the
> bore the intake gas flows into the chamber at the angle of the valve face
> (and still does even with the lip below about .1" with a high performance
> valve and .15" with a stock valve.)  The idea is to provide the plug area
> with a combustion mixture.
>
> This is sometimes called a pocket port by those that think the idea is to
> create turbulence at high flow levels.  If done correctly you can read the
> burn signature in the vicinity of the spark plug after just a few (less
than
> 10) seconds of running - even at idle.  The reward is NO misses at any
> throttle opening.
>
> Don't do this with Vortec heads - different theory.
>
> PF (pre flame) comments.
>
> 1) There is plenty of turbulence in a combustion chamber.
>
> 2) The intake charge doesn't blow on the plug, there is an eddy that will
> reach the plug.
>
> 3) There is nearly a half revolution between intake event and plug fire,
but
> compression tends to reduce eddies due to change in chamber shape (nearly
a
> pancake to a long (relatively) cylinder and back to a pancake) so during
and
> immediately after the intake event is the only chance you have for
> deterministic control of the intake charge.
>
> 4) You have to have a per-event method of determining misses - see this
> board about three years ago.  A dyno cannot reliably determine occasional
> misses and the improvement is tenths or less in a quarter mile.
>
> 5) The reason for this post is to assure readers that there is QUITE A LOT
> of movement in the combustion chamber and it is determined MOSTLY by the
> dynamic changes in shape of the chamber.
>
> 6) Static changes in shape of the combustion chamber have only a second or
> third order effect.
>
> 7) Any combustion chamber change will affect and effect many factors, but
> probably not greatly.  Once the intake valve closes and the chamber shape
> changes from nearly square (height = diameter) cylinder to a very thin
> pancake height = diameter / (6 to 10) vertical swirl and eddy have ceased
> and only horizontal swirl remains. (now do you get the donut shape void in
> production pistons?)
>
> 8) Plugs have a pretty good environment to start with.  If the mixture
near
> the spark is not pretty close to right, the flame never propagates under
> high power (high gas flow) conditions.  Too rich and the excess fuel puts
> out the flame,  too lean and the spark doesn't have enough power to ignite
> the flame (now do you get the reason for .060" plug gaps in production
> engines?)
>
> 9) It would be pretty difficult to get better than the production guys at
> starting and sustaining combustion reliably, and isn't that the objective?
> They are about the only folks that can measure the effects, and emissions
> requirements are keeping them honest.  We know from SUK fuel mileage
numbers
> that they must be kept honest, or they will sell us out in a heartbeat.
>
> Question - how can you get burnable fuel to a recessed spark plug?
>
> Flame on!
>
> One more thing,
>
> We hold these truths to be self evident.
>
> If there is no pressure gradient, there is no increase in flow and any
> system or any model.
>
> All other things being held constant, eddies will increase in volume and
> decrease in energy, given time and not very much of it.
>
> In a fluid, any change in direction is accompanied in a significant
> reduction in kinetic energy.
>
> Not all combustion is self sustaining.
>
> All velocity gradients are reduced as the fluid approaches a fixed
surface.
> Especially in the vicinity of about 0.1" at normal pressures and
> temperatures (and pressure gradients.)
>
> Oh and one last point. Because of the (relatively) cool surface of the
> chamber wall the mixture at the wall doesn't burn as it never becomes
> energetic enough to sustain combustion.  Therefore the wall remains 'wet.'
> If the 'wetness' is fuel the wall is always awash with fuel and shiny.  If
> the 'wetness' is oil, the visconsity (or maybe surface tension?) causes
the
> oil to remain in place, crack and loose all its volatiles (enough jargon?)
> You can tell if the plug is getting fuel by 'reading' it.  I will have the
> correct color that indicates that it is light enough (enough fuel) and not
> too dark (too much fuel)
>
> In short, you can tell if your engine will benefit from a green plug by
> merely removing it and looking at its color.  Oh, and there is already a
> chamber in the plug. If your plug is "too hot" the chamber is too deep,
and
> if the chamber is "too cold" the chamber is too deep.
>
> Speaking of too deep, this plug stuff is fairly complicated.  The material
> is a first order effect, the shape is a first order effect, the starting
> temperature is a first order effect, the idle temperature is a first order
> effect, the power temperature is a first order effect, the location is a
> first order effect (and far, far more important than anything discussed
here
> previously), the available fuel is a first order effect, cam timing is a
> first order effect, piston crown is a first order effect, head material is
a
> first order effect (affects temperature primarily) intake manifold design
is
> a first order effect (affects the intake charge velocity which does in
> actuality effect providing a 'clean charge' to the plug and so forth.
>
> Here's a thought puzzle.  Can you imagine that this was ever tried before?
> You need to work on that imagination.
>
> So, my challenge is - let's see the claimed data!  All of the data, what
> type engine, what circumstances.
>
> I seem to remember prior art.  That's lawyerese for 'been done before.'
> I've looked at Japenese art - seems I remember something similar, but with
> an injector.  In the '70's.  In fact, the art seems VERY familiar.  Let's
> see, there is a pre-combustion chamber, a venturi passage, a plurality of
> members and communication between inanimate objects.  Oh yeah, the Honda
> patents with the pre-combustion chambers.  They actuall put some of that
> into production.  Know what they use now?  I'm not sure, but I think it's
an
> ordinary run-of-the-mill spark plug.
>
> Oh, no, wait - I remember.  We had those things you put on the end of
spark
> plugs that would prevent fouling about fourty years ago.  Screwed up
engine
> operation but you didn't have to change the plug too often.  Seems the
> cylinder was washed with gasoline due to absence of combustion.  Why?
> Because there was no way to get the fuel air mixture to the plug.  What
> burned in the hole, stayed there.  Eventually it would work its way out
and
> the plug would fire again.  Those worked better if you drilled some holes
in
> them, but then the plug would start fouling again.  So do you know what
> people did when the anti foul plugs didn't work?  They installed a hotter
> plug or bought better gas and voila the problem vanished.
>
> Are the claims available in English?  Why not?  If it were a patent, it
> would then be readily available.
>
> Is it because some of the world's patent systems still expect the patent
to
> be proveable?
>
> What is the patent number?  It might be cool to look it up directly.
There
> is a US patent, right?
>
> Cut pollution by 40%?  Not even on a lawn mower.
>
> Increase torque.  How much?
>
> I'll bet even money that some otherwise wonderful engines won't even start
> with 'Greenfire' installed.
>
> Know who invented the modern spark plug as we've known it?  Smokey Unick,
an
> anti-academic.  I'll virtually guarantee that the green spark plug was
> invented before, and before that.
>
> Think about it.
>
> APPLICATION AU85/00352 is a patent application, was filed ten years ago.
The
> patent would be a six or seven digit number.  For example:
>
> The application AU89/00352 which, is in regard to Improvements in
> Sensitivity and Selectivity of Ion Channel Membrane Biosensors, was
granted
> and given a patent number of 633839.
>
> diy-efi you've been scammed and you sucked it in hook, line and sinker.
> Some of you guys must watch the Home Shopping Network.
>
> Next we'll be getting Elvis sightings reported on diy_efi.
>
> And replies.
>
> And 'academics' explaining how it's possible.
>
> And confirmations.
>
> And web pages.
>
> And ...
>
> A technological improvement colored green smells like....  Yeah, like a
> scam.  Green is the favorite color of con artists.  They think that it
> represents money. It does - to them.
>
> Adam, I wrote this reply before I say any of yours.  Hang in there, sir.
> And if anybody wants to throw degrees, I've got a couple from accredited
> schools.  If they want to throw experience I worked for Delco before and
> after they were Delphi and someone they want to throw garbage .... bring
it
> on, although I might be regarded as an amateur in this venue - I'm a quick
> learner and enjoy a challenge.
>
>
> dh
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "CMorEVB" <cathyanded at netscape.ca>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 3:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics
>
>
> > Thanks Mike.  Looking forward to your reply after the weekend.
> >
> > Have a good one.
> >
> > Vic
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
> > To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 8:02 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics
> >
> >
> > > At 06:27 AM 25/06/05, you wrote:
> > > >Mike, I'd sure like to read that explanation when you have time to
type
> > it
> > > >up.  Thanks for clearing up my wrong thinking in relating gases to
> > > >hydraulics.  They are not the same and I hadn't had my morning coffee
> yet
> > > >when I wrote that.
> > >
> > > No problem <hrrrrmmm> - I thought you might have been Adam Wade
> > > in disguise there for a moment <chuckle>...
> > >
> > > Actually, you've raised an interesting point which hadn't occurred to
me
> > since
> > > your post, Adam may think the gas in the plug region is incompressible
> > > or he may have cast the umbrella of hydraulics over a fluid dynamics
gas
> > > compressibility issue hence his unwillingness to shift position <sigh>
> > >
> > > We'll see if he wakes up to respond to my most recent post ;-)
> > >
> > > Middle of intense feasibility study at moment, put basic thought
> > experiment
> > > past my eldest and he made some suggestions, after w/end I think has I
> > > have so much work on,
> > >
> > > Thanks Vic,
> > >
> > > Rgds
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > >Vic
> > > >----- Original Message ----- 
> > > >From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
> > > >To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> > > >Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 4:19 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> At 06:57 AM 24/06/05, you wrote:
> > > >> >Mike, I had always believed that in hydraulics the pressure was
> equal
> > in
> > > >all
> > > >> >areas so how could there be flow?
> > > >>
> > > >> We're not talking hydraulics, we are not talking incompressible
> fluids,
> > > >> the gases in the combustion chamber are compressible. Though even
in
> > > >> hydraulics whenever there is a pressure gradient - even a small one
> in
> > > >> an incompressible fluid, there is more than enough potential for
> flow.
> > > >>
> > > >> >The only place I can see flow occuring is near the valves where
the
> > > >mixture
> > > >> >enters and exits.
> > > >>
> > > >> Is this comment based on your view we were talking hydraulics ?
> > > >>
> > > >> If there were only flow near the valves, how would the center of
the
> > > >combustion
> > > >> chamber provide useful gas mixture for combustion or even have it
> > > >exhausted ?
> > > >>
> > > >> (rhetorical question ;)
> > > >>
> > > >> I've come up with a thought experiment which should pretty well
> > illustrate
> > > >> what I perceive is happening with the greenfire plugs and hopefully
> > will
> > > >make
> > > >> it clear for Adam Wade how it can work, it was actualyl easier than
I
> > > >thought,
> > > >> provided he isnt just trolling and pretending not to understand
that
> > is,
> > > >but have
> > > >> heaps of other emails to wade through first ;-)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> cheers
> > > >>
> > > >> mike
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> >Vic
> > > >> >----- Original Message ----- 
> > > >> >From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
> > > >> >To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> > > >> >Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 1:33 AM
> > > >> >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs...
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> At 05:46 PM 22/06/05, you wrote:
> > > >> >> >Round and round in circles, changing statements at
> > > >> >> >every turn, and refusing to provide any evidence
> > > >> >> >whatsoever.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Adam,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> What particular statement have I changed 'at every turn',
> > > >> >> please paste the most glaring and obvious example so
> > > >> >> its crystal where you think my position has changed  ?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> And, do you think I really need to provide evidence there
> > > >> >> are pressure changes and this cant be appreciated by inspection
?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Since you ask me for evidence, can you provide evidence the
> > > >> >> mechanism for flow is only diffusion  (rhetorical question ;)  ?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >A waste of my (and everyone else's) time.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Not at all, I'm discovering what appears to be some sort
> > > >> >> of mental block you have regarding pressure causing flow...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> I had this sort of thing arise a couple of times during my
> > > >> >> teaching career from 79 to 82 and it impressed on me the
> > > >> >> huge difference there is in static vs dynamic abstractions
> > > >> >> people entertain when learning something new. So it would
> > > >> >> be helpful for me to add to my understanding why you hold
> > > >> >> your position so tenaciously ;-)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >When you're ready to come up with evidence that
> > > >> >> >supports your theory, which you claim is so basic
> > > >> >> >everyone knows it (and which you should be able to
> > > >> >> >show myriad examples of in mere seconds online), I'll
> > > >> >> >give it a whirl.  Until then, good night.  :)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Are you saying no one will accept pressure gives rise
> > > >> >> to flow ?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> It must be obvious to everyone that neither you or I are
> > > >> >> (right now) unlikely in a position to make laboratory
> measurements.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> The rationale and dialectic process that might converge to
> > > >> >> something useful raises these questions:-
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> a.      Do you believe there is pressure change across
> > > >> >>         the input of the plug ?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>         simple yes or no will suffice here.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> b.      If you believe there is no pressure change across the
> > > >> >>         plug can you articulate why you believe this ?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> c.      If however, you believe there is a pressure change
> > > >> >>         then can you articulate why this would not result in
flow
> ?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> .
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Bill Washington did an admirable job of an even handed attempt
> > > >> >> to illustrate the issue of pressure for you, yet your response
> isnt
> > > >> >> helpful, not logical and a bit of slap in his face, I really
> suggest
> > > >> >> you have another look at his post. In the meantime I'll
construct
> > > >> >> a thought experiment, good exercise, I guess as I havent done
> > > >> >> this for 20 years since I last had students at uni ~`:o)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Dont hold your breath though, I'm on 9 other tech groups and
> > > >> >> emails come in thick and fast...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Regards from
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Mike Massen
> > > >> >> Perth, Western Australia
> > > >> >> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> > > >> >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> > > >> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > >> >> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > > >> >
> > > >> >_______________________________________________
> > > >> >Diy_efi mailing list
> > > >> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > >> >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > > >>
> > > >> Regards from
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Mike Massen
> > > >> Perth, Western Australia
> > > >> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> > > >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Diy_efi mailing list
> > > >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > >> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Diy_efi mailing list
> > > >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > >
> > > Regards from
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike Massen
> > > Perth, Western Australia
> > > VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> > > http://niche.iinet.net.au
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Diy_efi mailing list
> > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> >
> >
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