[Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics
dh at busb.com
dh
Mon Jun 27 01:17:06 UTC 2005
A Rose by any other name smells red. We make associations based on previous
experience.
Enough,
Keeping a 'clean' mixture near the spark plug is essential to high
performance engines.
Keeping a 'clean' mixture near the spark plug is essential to low emissions
engines.
Keeping a 'clean' mixture near the spark plug is essential to high
efficiency engines.
One of the 'tricks' to good flowing heads is to put a little curvature just
above the exhaust valve seat so that there is flow across the top of the
chamber as the intake valve is closing. Because of intertial of the gas
there is quite a bit of flow in the last few thousanths of valve lift before
close. Without the little lip above the valve seat to the outside of the
bore the intake gas flows into the chamber at the angle of the valve face
(and still does even with the lip below about .1" with a high performance
valve and .15" with a stock valve.) The idea is to provide the plug area
with a combustion mixture.
This is sometimes called a pocket port by those that think the idea is to
create turbulence at high flow levels. If done correctly you can read the
burn signature in the vicinity of the spark plug after just a few (less than
10) seconds of running - even at idle. The reward is NO misses at any
throttle opening.
Don't do this with Vortec heads - different theory.
PF (pre flame) comments.
1) There is plenty of turbulence in a combustion chamber.
2) The intake charge doesn't blow on the plug, there is an eddy that will
reach the plug.
3) There is nearly a half revolution between intake event and plug fire, but
compression tends to reduce eddies due to change in chamber shape (nearly a
pancake to a long (relatively) cylinder and back to a pancake) so during and
immediately after the intake event is the only chance you have for
deterministic control of the intake charge.
4) You have to have a per-event method of determining misses - see this
board about three years ago. A dyno cannot reliably determine occasional
misses and the improvement is tenths or less in a quarter mile.
5) The reason for this post is to assure readers that there is QUITE A LOT
of movement in the combustion chamber and it is determined MOSTLY by the
dynamic changes in shape of the chamber.
6) Static changes in shape of the combustion chamber have only a second or
third order effect.
7) Any combustion chamber change will affect and effect many factors, but
probably not greatly. Once the intake valve closes and the chamber shape
changes from nearly square (height = diameter) cylinder to a very thin
pancake height = diameter / (6 to 10) vertical swirl and eddy have ceased
and only horizontal swirl remains. (now do you get the donut shape void in
production pistons?)
8) Plugs have a pretty good environment to start with. If the mixture near
the spark is not pretty close to right, the flame never propagates under
high power (high gas flow) conditions. Too rich and the excess fuel puts
out the flame, too lean and the spark doesn't have enough power to ignite
the flame (now do you get the reason for .060" plug gaps in production
engines?)
9) It would be pretty difficult to get better than the production guys at
starting and sustaining combustion reliably, and isn't that the objective?
They are about the only folks that can measure the effects, and emissions
requirements are keeping them honest. We know from SUK fuel mileage numbers
that they must be kept honest, or they will sell us out in a heartbeat.
Question - how can you get burnable fuel to a recessed spark plug?
Flame on!
One more thing,
We hold these truths to be self evident.
If there is no pressure gradient, there is no increase in flow and any
system or any model.
All other things being held constant, eddies will increase in volume and
decrease in energy, given time and not very much of it.
In a fluid, any change in direction is accompanied in a significant
reduction in kinetic energy.
Not all combustion is self sustaining.
All velocity gradients are reduced as the fluid approaches a fixed surface.
Especially in the vicinity of about 0.1" at normal pressures and
temperatures (and pressure gradients.)
Oh and one last point. Because of the (relatively) cool surface of the
chamber wall the mixture at the wall doesn't burn as it never becomes
energetic enough to sustain combustion. Therefore the wall remains 'wet.'
If the 'wetness' is fuel the wall is always awash with fuel and shiny. If
the 'wetness' is oil, the visconsity (or maybe surface tension?) causes the
oil to remain in place, crack and loose all its volatiles (enough jargon?)
You can tell if the plug is getting fuel by 'reading' it. I will have the
correct color that indicates that it is light enough (enough fuel) and not
too dark (too much fuel)
In short, you can tell if your engine will benefit from a green plug by
merely removing it and looking at its color. Oh, and there is already a
chamber in the plug. If your plug is "too hot" the chamber is too deep, and
if the chamber is "too cold" the chamber is too deep.
Speaking of too deep, this plug stuff is fairly complicated. The material
is a first order effect, the shape is a first order effect, the starting
temperature is a first order effect, the idle temperature is a first order
effect, the power temperature is a first order effect, the location is a
first order effect (and far, far more important than anything discussed here
previously), the available fuel is a first order effect, cam timing is a
first order effect, piston crown is a first order effect, head material is a
first order effect (affects temperature primarily) intake manifold design is
a first order effect (affects the intake charge velocity which does in
actuality effect providing a 'clean charge' to the plug and so forth.
Here's a thought puzzle. Can you imagine that this was ever tried before?
You need to work on that imagination.
So, my challenge is - let's see the claimed data! All of the data, what
type engine, what circumstances.
I seem to remember prior art. That's lawyerese for 'been done before.'
I've looked at Japenese art - seems I remember something similar, but with
an injector. In the '70's. In fact, the art seems VERY familiar. Let's
see, there is a pre-combustion chamber, a venturi passage, a plurality of
members and communication between inanimate objects. Oh yeah, the Honda
patents with the pre-combustion chambers. They actuall put some of that
into production. Know what they use now? I'm not sure, but I think it's an
ordinary run-of-the-mill spark plug.
Oh, no, wait - I remember. We had those things you put on the end of spark
plugs that would prevent fouling about fourty years ago. Screwed up engine
operation but you didn't have to change the plug too often. Seems the
cylinder was washed with gasoline due to absence of combustion. Why?
Because there was no way to get the fuel air mixture to the plug. What
burned in the hole, stayed there. Eventually it would work its way out and
the plug would fire again. Those worked better if you drilled some holes in
them, but then the plug would start fouling again. So do you know what
people did when the anti foul plugs didn't work? They installed a hotter
plug or bought better gas and voila the problem vanished.
Are the claims available in English? Why not? If it were a patent, it
would then be readily available.
Is it because some of the world's patent systems still expect the patent to
be proveable?
What is the patent number? It might be cool to look it up directly. There
is a US patent, right?
Cut pollution by 40%? Not even on a lawn mower.
Increase torque. How much?
I'll bet even money that some otherwise wonderful engines won't even start
with 'Greenfire' installed.
Know who invented the modern spark plug as we've known it? Smokey Unick, an
anti-academic. I'll virtually guarantee that the green spark plug was
invented before, and before that.
Think about it.
APPLICATION AU85/00352 is a patent application, was filed ten years ago. The
patent would be a six or seven digit number. For example:
The application AU89/00352 which, is in regard to Improvements in
Sensitivity and Selectivity of Ion Channel Membrane Biosensors, was granted
and given a patent number of 633839.
diy-efi you've been scammed and you sucked it in hook, line and sinker.
Some of you guys must watch the Home Shopping Network.
Next we'll be getting Elvis sightings reported on diy_efi.
And replies.
And 'academics' explaining how it's possible.
And confirmations.
And web pages.
And ...
A technological improvement colored green smells like.... Yeah, like a
scam. Green is the favorite color of con artists. They think that it
represents money. It does - to them.
Adam, I wrote this reply before I say any of yours. Hang in there, sir.
And if anybody wants to throw degrees, I've got a couple from accredited
schools. If they want to throw experience I worked for Delco before and
after they were Delphi and someone they want to throw garbage .... bring it
on, although I might be regarded as an amateur in this venue - I'm a quick
learner and enjoy a challenge.
dh
----- Original Message -----
From: "CMorEVB" <cathyanded at netscape.ca>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics
> Thanks Mike. Looking forward to your reply after the weekend.
>
> Have a good one.
>
> Vic
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 8:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics
>
>
> > At 06:27 AM 25/06/05, you wrote:
> > >Mike, I'd sure like to read that explanation when you have time to type
> it
> > >up. Thanks for clearing up my wrong thinking in relating gases to
> > >hydraulics. They are not the same and I hadn't had my morning coffee
yet
> > >when I wrote that.
> >
> > No problem <hrrrrmmm> - I thought you might have been Adam Wade
> > in disguise there for a moment <chuckle>...
> >
> > Actually, you've raised an interesting point which hadn't occurred to me
> since
> > your post, Adam may think the gas in the plug region is incompressible
> > or he may have cast the umbrella of hydraulics over a fluid dynamics gas
> > compressibility issue hence his unwillingness to shift position <sigh>
> >
> > We'll see if he wakes up to respond to my most recent post ;-)
> >
> > Middle of intense feasibility study at moment, put basic thought
> experiment
> > past my eldest and he made some suggestions, after w/end I think has I
> > have so much work on,
> >
> > Thanks Vic,
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > >Vic
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
> > >To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> > >Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 4:19 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs..., hydraulics
> > >
> > >
> > >> At 06:57 AM 24/06/05, you wrote:
> > >> >Mike, I had always believed that in hydraulics the pressure was
equal
> in
> > >all
> > >> >areas so how could there be flow?
> > >>
> > >> We're not talking hydraulics, we are not talking incompressible
fluids,
> > >> the gases in the combustion chamber are compressible. Though even in
> > >> hydraulics whenever there is a pressure gradient - even a small one
in
> > >> an incompressible fluid, there is more than enough potential for
flow.
> > >>
> > >> >The only place I can see flow occuring is near the valves where the
> > >mixture
> > >> >enters and exits.
> > >>
> > >> Is this comment based on your view we were talking hydraulics ?
> > >>
> > >> If there were only flow near the valves, how would the center of the
> > >combustion
> > >> chamber provide useful gas mixture for combustion or even have it
> > >exhausted ?
> > >>
> > >> (rhetorical question ;)
> > >>
> > >> I've come up with a thought experiment which should pretty well
> illustrate
> > >> what I perceive is happening with the greenfire plugs and hopefully
> will
> > >make
> > >> it clear for Adam Wade how it can work, it was actualyl easier than I
> > >thought,
> > >> provided he isnt just trolling and pretending not to understand that
> is,
> > >but have
> > >> heaps of other emails to wade through first ;-)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> cheers
> > >>
> > >> mike
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >Vic
> > >> >----- Original Message -----
> > >> >From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
> > >> >To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> > >> >Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 1:33 AM
> > >> >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Link for greenfire spark plugs...
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> At 05:46 PM 22/06/05, you wrote:
> > >> >> >Round and round in circles, changing statements at
> > >> >> >every turn, and refusing to provide any evidence
> > >> >> >whatsoever.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Adam,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> What particular statement have I changed 'at every turn',
> > >> >> please paste the most glaring and obvious example so
> > >> >> its crystal where you think my position has changed ?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> And, do you think I really need to provide evidence there
> > >> >> are pressure changes and this cant be appreciated by inspection ?
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Since you ask me for evidence, can you provide evidence the
> > >> >> mechanism for flow is only diffusion (rhetorical question ;) ?
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >A waste of my (and everyone else's) time.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Not at all, I'm discovering what appears to be some sort
> > >> >> of mental block you have regarding pressure causing flow...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I had this sort of thing arise a couple of times during my
> > >> >> teaching career from 79 to 82 and it impressed on me the
> > >> >> huge difference there is in static vs dynamic abstractions
> > >> >> people entertain when learning something new. So it would
> > >> >> be helpful for me to add to my understanding why you hold
> > >> >> your position so tenaciously ;-)
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >When you're ready to come up with evidence that
> > >> >> >supports your theory, which you claim is so basic
> > >> >> >everyone knows it (and which you should be able to
> > >> >> >show myriad examples of in mere seconds online), I'll
> > >> >> >give it a whirl. Until then, good night. :)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Are you saying no one will accept pressure gives rise
> > >> >> to flow ?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> It must be obvious to everyone that neither you or I are
> > >> >> (right now) unlikely in a position to make laboratory
measurements.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> The rationale and dialectic process that might converge to
> > >> >> something useful raises these questions:-
> > >> >>
> > >> >> a. Do you believe there is pressure change across
> > >> >> the input of the plug ?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> simple yes or no will suffice here.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> b. If you believe there is no pressure change across the
> > >> >> plug can you articulate why you believe this ?
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> c. If however, you believe there is a pressure change
> > >> >> then can you articulate why this would not result in flow
?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> .
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Bill Washington did an admirable job of an even handed attempt
> > >> >> to illustrate the issue of pressure for you, yet your response
isnt
> > >> >> helpful, not logical and a bit of slap in his face, I really
suggest
> > >> >> you have another look at his post. In the meantime I'll construct
> > >> >> a thought experiment, good exercise, I guess as I havent done
> > >> >> this for 20 years since I last had students at uni ~`:o)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Dont hold your breath though, I'm on 9 other tech groups and
> > >> >> emails come in thick and fast...
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Regards from
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Mike Massen
> > >> >> Perth, Western Australia
> > >> >> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> > >> >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> > >> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > >> >> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > >> >
> > >> >_______________________________________________
> > >> >Diy_efi mailing list
> > >> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > >> >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > >>
> > >> Regards from
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Mike Massen
> > >> Perth, Western Australia
> > >> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> > >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Diy_efi mailing list
> > >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > >> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Diy_efi mailing list
> > >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> > Regards from
> >
> >
> > Mike Massen
> > Perth, Western Australia
> > VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> > http://niche.iinet.net.au
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
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