[Diy_efi] info

Mon Oct 31 12:58:53 UTC 2005

At 08:33 PM 10/31/05, you wrote:
>We're talking about rinsing the board in water,  not putting it in a bath
>for a month.  Sheesh,  it's a shame how this list has deveolved into endless
>pissing contests and hair splitting. Back in the old days before the DIY-WB
>fiasco made the list implode there was real, serious efi content here.  Now
>it's just mostly this kind of junk.

I'm sorry Bill,

I was only intending to bring factual content and made no personal
references - unlike others on this group, hope you were not sensitised by
earlier emails, read on.

Water can get into all sorts of tiny places and cause electrolytic conduction,
such as analog circuits where even a slight change in resistance from
built up deposits from even a few minutes of electrolysis can affect long
term stability. Bill,  I was uncritically warning against using water, and
didnt intend to offend you... I'm not A.W  <chuckle>

Case in point, the analog parts of EFI inputs such as log to linear dont
need much change in resistance to cause drift or offset errors - even a
little bit of water in the wrong places even for a few minutes can cause
offset errors which are enough to make a board unusable for hours or
until its properly flushed with Isopropanol. Fortunately the board the
poster was referring to is nicely coated, some arent...

Please accept Bill, that other posters have specific experience of
troublesome issues. In my particular experience as an engineer
of some 23 years experience, water is the worst thing to use in or near
any analog circuits for even a few minutes. In one example a CO sensor
board that had a high gain stage and 40nA sensr current was affected
by the moisture from a finger smear and a wipe with a damp towel
only made matters worse and even after drying it didnt improve.

The other assumption is that water is clean, sorry it aint. Tap water
is full of minerals, they get deposited when they dry and can leave
traces to affect analog circuits, that only takes a few minutes not months !
And if you are prompted to get distilled then why not get Isopropanol
and do the job properly, it is electronics.

Isopropanol has no minerals and is the solvent of choice for cleaning
boards, follow the industry lead and avoid water - well <cough> unless its
really distilled (not demineralised), used for as short a period as possible
and board dried in an oven immediately thereafter...

Its a cute way too look at solvents by distinghuishing them as
aggressive or otherwise, again I'm trying to be factual without making
any criticism - I never made any personal indictment, I wanted
to be clear its really an interpretation of a chemical compatibility issue
and sure you are welcome to interpret your view of a solvent as
aggressive or passive - frankly, I am incapable of seeing it that way.

No pissing contest Bill, facts presented without personal
criticism and from a wealth of industrial experience in recognition
of chemical compatibility issues...

Rgds

Mike

>Bill
>
>> From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
>> Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:02:03 +0800
>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info
>> 
>> At 05:13 AM 10/31/05, you wrote:
>>> Actually,  they call water the 'universal solvent' for a reason.  I'd start
>>> there,  and if it appears there is some residue the water can't get I might
>>> try more agressive solvents.
>> 
>> mmmm, not really - Water is a fairly good ionic solvent but suffers
>> from the H to OH equilibria, in that its neutrality is probabilisitc,
>> when it gets to actually dissolve anything and is either acidic or caustic
>> as a consequence and has repercussions on that basis. Vis a vis
>> using water as engine coolant where electrolytic damage is so prevalent,
>> the H to OH equilibrium seems to win out regardless of what chemicals
>> are added. That green inhibitor needs frequent changing, what I've
>> settled on is a tannin type pill which coats the alloy with a protective
>> layer and seems to work effectively for long periods. The only downside
>> is a little brown sludge if instructions/amounts not precisely adhered to.
>> 
>> Electronic components are not generally designed for immersion
>> in water, sure some can tolerate water for cleaning - but for electronics
>> Isopropanol is more generally accepted as the universal cleaner
>> and might be interpreted as the universal solvent for pollutants
>> affecting electronic repair and service. Its also ionic and boards
>> shouldnt be left in it for long otherwise there electrolytic effects.
>> The good thing about it is - its so volatile and drys off in a few
>> mere seconds on some occasions, plenty of ventilation is essential
>> as it is combustible and although it smells (ok) I wouldnt breath
>> the stuff at all if I could help it.
>> 
>> Interesting your comment re "aggressive" bringing a human emotive
>> issue to one of chemical compatibility. What I mean to say is there
>> are so many products and processes that have only a compatibility
>> issue not one which is either passive or aggressive
>> and to use those terms seems discontinuous with solvents. Sure,
>> the appearance is either one is more or less aggressive than another
>> but it comes down to a sheer compatibility only in the long run.
>> 
>> Also water is (AFAIK) only ionic whereas Isopropanol is ionic and
>> covalent in terms of its capacity to dissolve most pollutants which
>> can affect electronics, the Isopropanol is designed around for that purpose.
>> 
>> Rgds
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Again,  just mho.
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>>> From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
>>>> 
>>>> At 08:31 AM 10/29/05, you wrote:
>>>>> I'd remove it from the case,  wash down the PCB and case good with clear
>>>>> clean water,  then blow it with compressed air and let it dry for a few
>>>>> days.
>>>>> Once I was sure it was complete dry I'd reassemble it and try running it.
>>>>> What id there to loose?
>>>> 
>>>> Best solvent to remove other things is Isopropyl alcohol (Isopropanol),
>>>> let dry normally - dont use compressed air, there is potential for localised
>>>> static damage,
>>>> 
>>>> Rgds
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Just MHO :-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bill
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: "Lee M. Lemoine" <llemoine at gmail.com>
>>>>> 
>>>>>> John, if antifreeze can damage paint, think about
>>>>>> what it may do
>>>>>> to a PCB.
>>>>>> You could spend a lot of time replacing parts, and
>>>>>> still have an
>>>>>> unreliable
>>>>>> ECU. Wrecking yard option sounds good. Make sure it
>>>>>> comes from a
>>>>>> car
>>>>>> without a leaky heater core.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Geoff H
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards from
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>>> Perth, Western Australia
>>>> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
>>>> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
>>>> http://niche.iinet.net.au
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>>>> Diy_efi mailing list
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>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
>> 
>> Regards from
>> 
>> 
>> Mike
>> Perth, Western Australia
>> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
>> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
>> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
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Regards from

Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au