[Diy_efi] BMW/Siemens stratified direct injection, link

[Bernd Felsche]

On Wednesday 25 October 2006 22:13, Mike wrote:
> At 07:47 AM 10/25/06, you wrote:
> >> Yes, the point about the article is that is petrol and pintle
> >> adjustable for each cylinder, Eaton did have piezo injectors
> >> around 30 years ago, still have the blurb somewhere circa 1977,

> >The piezo stack is a key element and appears to be very similar to
> >that in the PPD.

> Sorry too many acronyms here, I'll have to look up PPD.

Piezo-Pumpe-D?se

> >> >So the small innovator is diverted from a primary goal to
> >> >having to re-invent lots of wheels. e.g. diesel injectors
> >> >capable of metering down to around 1 mg/stroke. [Which btw the
> >> >VW-Mechatronic site said it'd achieve with the piezo unit
> >> >injector. NO specs @ SiemensVDO.]

> >> Not at all, though it does dissuade those without the
> >> combination of focus and funds, it doesnt stop those who have a
> >> plan and for those that dont have a plan it doesnt stop you if
> >> you are suitably enthusiastic to procure the part and put it to
> >> the appropriate regimes of tests ?

> >Suitably enthusiastic to buy a part at $2000 each, without the ECU?
> >I assume that "suitably" also means that one be well financed by
> >other means.

> Bernd,
> If you have an idle enquiry, ie.  to just get a part and mess with
> it for no particular plan then it might well be sensible that the
> manufacturers dissuade such time wasting with the method they have
> thus so far employed.

There is a particular plan that I don't wish to discuss in technical
detail as yet; but it's NOT to do with making lots of money - at
least for me.

Knowing what key components are on the shelf and how suitable they
are for the intended purpose is crucial to selecting the right
components without wasting a lot of time. If the specifications
aren't published, then it is a waste of time to pursue that option.
A supplier who publishes specs or an "in-house" development from
a blank sheet is a more viable prospect for sourcing the parts.

> I take it the quote for the part at AUD/USD  $2000 is accurate and
> in any case may not be that high if you consider its meant for
> stratified charge applications where a considerable expense is
> likely to be outlayed in engine mechanics, sort of precludes
> casual enquirers therefore $2000 is not unreasonable but my point
> is that if you have good reason and have a plan you might get it
> for far less etc

I'm not referring to the petrol injector. 

> So you'd get a much better price I would expect from factory if you
> approached them carefully.

I've tried in the past. Travelled to the manufacturer. Spoke to them
face to face. They are NOT interested unless you're committed to
buying large quantities. Either that; or they want a big piece of
your pie. I'm not prepared to compromise the project by giving it
away for somebody else to profit.

> >Or perhaps you mean suitably enthusiastic to break into cars and to
> >steal the parts..
>
> Please recall these posts end up in an archive, you are telling people
> that your first thought and interpretation of enthusiastic action is
> (even if you are joking) somewhat criminal in nature, ie Not strategic :(

Mike: Read what I've written. You seem to have read something else.

> Hang on, dont you speak German (?), you are rather better prepared
> to pursue that than most, yet you are implying a negative/criminal
> course of action. If you approach a company in the right manner and

I have not implied criminal action. Merely posed if your definition
of "suitably enthusiastic" encompasses such activity.

> with a plan you are often able to get hold of a part for nothing and
> might even get it including freight...! (I have done this on a few
> occasions since 1981 when I put EFI into my 1600cc ford escort xflow).

> Here is another (possible) rather more "enthusiastic" course:-

> Enrole at Carlisle tech into automotive engineering selected
> units, do a few engine/transmission units, propose a plan to tech

You're joking I hope. I'm almost 50 years old. Had a B.E. (Mech.)
since 1983 and actually worked as an R&D Engineer for the crowd that
later moved from Morley to Balcatta.

I'd be thrown out of Carlisle Tech in the first half hour.

> college dean for specialist injectors for their single cylinder
> test engine, you might then get to play with one for free though
> might take a few months, maybe enrole in a commercial psychology
> unit at the same time and save travel costs for sheer strategy
> purposes  ;-)

So other forms of dishonesty/insincerity are OK?
Is that a good basis for a long-term (business) relationship?

> >Perhaps it'd be far too straightforward for manufacturers to
> >publish the specifications of the devices that they sell instead
> >of encouraging vehicle theft! ;-)

> It might be early days, in that the particular product is not
> (AFAIK) yet in large scale distribution so company may well be

PPD has been in volume production for almost a year. Production
numbers have, judging by the number of vehicles equipped with the
same, probably exceeded a quarter of a million.

Information about their functionality disappeared to be replaced
by a "glossy brochure".

SiemensVDO are not unique. The Bosch Automotive Handbook used to
contain lots of real-world numbers so that the reader could get a
sense of proportion.... but since the 5th (English) Edition, that's
being noticeably edited out to include "more content" that glosses
over new wizz-bang stuff.

The technicians are being trained to be sales channels. There's at
best a remote possibility of them understanding what they are
actually replacing/selling. If they can't understand how things are
supposed to work, then how can they figure out what's going wrong?

It's all good for the bean-counters though as millions of
functioning parts are replaced slavishly under "guided fault
finding"; all at the cost to the consumer.

> following a rather sensible strategy to dissuade time wasters
> using up resources asking inappropriate questions on (initial)
> published specs, ie Those idle enquiries from people who dont have

... and people who want the specs are automatically considered
time-wasters.  Whose time is it wasting? 

Bearings catalogues and fastener specifications contain enough
information for Engineers to decide what they need to get to build
their machinery. Materials data sheets let Engineers select the
right materials for components.

Industrial gearboxes come with comprehensive specifications.

That doesn't waste the time of Engineers trying to get information
on components... it makes the Engineers more efficient.

There's no technical reason why such cannot be provided by
manufacturers of fuel injectors.

Do you like being tied up on the phone, fax, email trying to get
specifications for components? Perhaps from one of half a dozen
possible suppliers? Is that more efficient than clicking on the link
to download a specification PDF?

> a plan. In any tech organisation there are likely conflicting
> priorities, (IMHO) its not sensible to prematurely publish specs
> thus entertaining all sorts of vague enquiries from people when
> the primary focus should be on delivering the parts and variations
> and all that goes with it and the requisite followups with
> existing (major) customers such as BMW. ie. The company probably
> has a wise selection criteria and this strategy doesnt include
> premature spec publication (well, detailled ones at any rate).

Get your hand off it Mike. They are protecting the specification so
that competitors (who have their "moles" in each others houses
anyway) don't have a convenient point of performance to meet. That's
how the muddle managers probably view it. To protect their "IP" at
all costs.

And cynics might believe that there's nothing really flash about the
"new stuff" because it's not significantly better than the old;
selling at 10% of the price because there are established,
alternative sources.

> Have you emailled, rang or faxed the company and the specific
> department to get a full spec sheet yet (?), do you have a plan to
> use/try the product (?), how about contacting the dept responsible for
> the collation and publishing of the spec etc ?

IME; complete WOFTAM. Wasted many hours emailing and on the phone.

I don't bother to plan or try using a product if I can't get the
^*&^@#ing specifications. Engineering is applied science. You look
at your requirements and then select what fits those requirements.
If the requirements say X to Y mg/cycles at up to Z cycles/second,
then that is what is needed to do the job.

Why should an Engineer have to get on the phone to half a dozen
other Engineers to do the initial product search? Data sheets
with basic specifications are a no-brainer. Whose time is being
wasted by lack of published specifications?

-- 
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