Delivery failure (shannen at grolen.com)

[postmaster at postal.grolen.com]

Your message has encountered delivery problems to the following recipients:
shannen at grolen.com

Unable to send to destination domain
Sent:    (message data)
Received:554 Transaction failed; too many hops 26 maximum 16


Your message reads (in part):

Received: from wg.grolen.com (unverified [216.64.96.6]) by postal.grolen.com
 (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.4) with SMTP id <B0002573531 at postal.grolen.com> for <shannen at grolen.com>;
 Wed, 25 Aug 1999 04:59:01 -0400
Message-ID: <B0002573531 at postal.grolen.com>
Resent-From: Shannen at grolen.com
Resent-Date: 25 Aug 1999 04:57:16 EDT
From: gmecm at efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu
To: shannen at grolen.com
Date: 23 Aug 1999 09:31:16 EDT
Subject: Re: Traction Control & Racing

> Ah, but aren't these the same people that make the ABS systems the way
> they are?  I have driven OE traction control cars and they are good for

Yes, and while they are somewhat effective, its the same thing as OEM
traction control - it helps drivers who make small mistakes survive
large consequences.  Traction control and ABS still is not going to help
a downhill run at 45MPH on ice :)

> The ABS systems are no different.  They are 'tuned' (can I use that word
> here?) for the masses and not for performance.  Many many times, I see a

Well, if I may stick my opinion in again, I haven't found one OEM car on
the market that is geared for true performance in ANY sense.  There have
been, and probably always will be, too many tradeoffs between mass
production and engineering.  Look at a typical, 1999 SVT Cobra Mustang. 
Nice 30k car, they handle good, they accelerate good, and for most, they
look good.  However, is that car reaching its maximum potential in
power, acceleration, and braking?  Of course not.  Otherwise companies
like Saleen would be out of business by now.

> racecar with one tire locked up no matter how good the driver.  IMO,

Yes, I've seen that too, and if the driver is properly trained and has
enough experience - that can be minimized or eliminated, or controlled
when it occurs.  That's all I was trying to say.  I don't believe race
cars need all this stuff that isolates the driver from the road.  Having
my brake pedal pulsate does not give me "feel" of how much the brakes
are grabbing, or not.  While there are certain advantages to automated
systems in vehicles, I believe there are more advantages to a better
driver.

> My point exactly.  Hoping I can come up with a scheme that is 'better
> than the human'.  May not be possible, but will be fun to play with
> regardless.

Well, two video cameras, a small cray, and some video processing could
be used to create a nice optically stereo drive by cray system that
would win, win, win :)  Just busting your chops :)

> Well, that is where we differ slightly on our philosophy.  The one
> rhetorical question here is: why then to the supposedly best drivers in
> the world (F1) need to have an explicit ban on traction control?
> Because it is unsafe, or is it because it could give an unfair
> advantage?

I can't answer that, for I don't know for sure.  If all drivers in the
same league/class had the same features/options/functions on their car,
then in theory, there are no advantages of one car over another.  So, I
would therefore conclude, between those two choices, that its considered
unsafe.

> 'racing' surface will be like.  Having 750+ horsepower available with
> 10" tires makes for a very throttle controlled ride.  It also makes for

This is true.

> a slower tun than if I could, say, reliably dial in 15% tire slip and
> concentrate on keeping it between the ditches.  Sorry for the non-PC
> example for those of you that don't condone street racing.  Just

I don't, however as a young'en, I did a helluva lot of it.  I had one of
the heaviest cars in our little "league" and was always in the top three
as far as wins.

> consider the case where you drive wide open all by yourself for the hell
> of it.

Well, we're talking theoretical of course :)  We would never hold WOT
for 15 minutes on an open road.

> Even in drag racing, they have means of controlling the amount of power
> put down at any given time.  Clutch timers, progressive nitrous systems,
> bypass valves, etc.  The difference there is that they can usually rely
> on some minimal amount of track preparation, and that during a run, the
> car will have a given amount of bite at any place on the track.  Set
> timers work pretty well in these cases to get them through 95% of the

Its funny that you bring all these technologies.  Our funny car, which
was based on a 500cid donovan block for power, didn't have all this
fancy stuff.  In fact, we didn't even run a transmission.  Engine,
flywheel, clutch pack, spherical bearing, driveshaft, spool, axles,


*** RETURNED MESSAGE TRUNCATED ***