[Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy

Wed Sep 21 04:16:32 UTC 2005

Hey!  I'd typed and response with 2 links before I even got your 2nd 
message!
Great minds think alike!

Good luck!

Mark

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Darrell" <ndarrell at telusplanet.net>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy

> Thanks Mark, I should have been clearer.  I knew it wouldn't be a
> drop in replacement...  Didn't mean to light any fuses.  Your
> description of the Zeitronix box sounds cool.  U got a web link?  How
> much u give 4 it?
>
> On 17 Sep 2005 at 9:09, Mark Romans wrote:
>
>> Hi Darrell:  I stick with my statement as to your specific question.
>>
>> >> Interesting idea about using a WBO2 sensor, has anyone actually tried
>> >> this?  I mean replacing a stock NB with a WB on a stock computer? 
>> >> That
>> >> in combination with changing the voltage threshold may allow you to 
>> >> set
>> >> the AFR to a slightly leaner mixture overall.
>>
>> Obviously if you add an interface box you can use a wb output into a 
>> narrow
>> band
>> input.  I have a Zeitronix Wide band and it allows me to input a 
>> SIMULATED
>> narrow band signal into the stock ecm while using the WB to datalog 
>> actual
>> afrs.
>>
>> Sorry I got cranky about being "Corrected" for my errors.  (LOL!).
>>
>> SOME people don't realize that word semantics are critical when you are
>> typing.
>>
>> "Clarification" would have been a better word sincce I wasn't technically
>> wrong in
>> the first place.
>>
>> Good luck on your projects!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Mark Romans" <romans at starstream.net>
>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 4:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>
>>
>> > No No No!   You can't run a wide band in place of a narrow band.
>> > The Wide band puts out a somewhat linear 0-5 v output.
>> > The narrow band puts out a non-linear 0-1 v output.
>> > I was datalogging with diacom with one pc and the wide band
>> > with a 2nd pc, datalogging the wideband afr, lamda, rpm and tps.
>> > Then going back and looking through each datalog and comparing screens 
>> > to
>> > set the afr's.
>> > Mark
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Darrell" <ndarrell at telusplanet.net>
>> > To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>> > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:08 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>> >
>> >
>> >> Cowen: (and all)
>> >>
>> >> Well, you are right, second times the charm.  Thank you for responding
>> >> anyway, and getting a little action going on the thread.  A lot of 
>> >> this
>> >> information will be useful, thanks to all who posted on the topic. 
>> >> Some
>> >> of it went way over my head, but I'm here to learn.
>> >>
>> >> Interesting idea about using a WBO2 sensor, has anyone actually tried
>> >> this?  I mean replacing a stock NB with a WB on a stock computer? 
>> >> That
>> >> in combination with changing the voltage threshold may allow you to 
>> >> set
>> >> the AFR to a slightly leaner mixture overall.
>> >>
>> >> I was thinking more of optimizing the ignition advance, perhaps 
>> >> advancing
>> >> the timing a bit on light throttle acceleration, tweaking the
>> >> deceleration enleanment up a bit, that sort of thing.
>> >>
>> >> Definitely the low restriction exhaust system will help, I used to 
>> >> drive
>> >> a Camaro with cheap turbo mufflers, when the mufflers blew out my gas
>> >> mileage went up by 10%!   Also thinking about 1.6:1 rockers for the
>> >> exhaust valves to increase the flow a little.
>> >>
>> >> Not sure what I can do on the intake side, haven't really researched
>> >> what's available for that engine, but I suspect not much.  Perhaps 
>> >> some
>> >> 3.1l parts, I've heard that 3.1l heads make a fairly big difference. 
>> >> A
>> >> straighter intake tube with smooth sides rather than the ribbed stock
>> >> hose may help as well, and perhaps a larger diameter MAF.  I'd 
>> >> actually
>> >> like to get rid of the MAF altogether.
>> >>
>> >> I tend to agree with Bruce's observation, if you make more power, you
>> >> need to get into the throttle less for the same effect, and fuel 
>> >> economy
>> >> is tied to engine RPM and throttle position...  That is, if you can
>> >> resist the temptation to put your foot in it.
>> >>
>> >> On 15 Sep 2005 at 16:33, Cowen wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Wow!  A bit of vigorous action on this topic!  This IS
>> >>> my first rodeo, at least in this arena, and normally I
>> >>> might not have responded to Darrell, but it seemed no
>> >>> one else was, so I gave it a whirl.  I thought I put
>> >>> in enough "maybes" to draw out some clarification from
>> >>> the experts...  Well! I have been severely chastised
>> >>> for some poor writing skills!
>> >>>
>> >>> GAS said:
>> >>> > NB more sensitive at what ratio?  On what WB sites
>> >>> > are you referring
>> >>> > to?
>> >>>
>> >>> Not "NB more sensitive" at some other ratio, I
>> >>> understand NB to be very limited.  I meant to suggest
>> >>> that WB might allow closed loop with leaner AF ratios
>> >>> than stoich, which would be a probable benefit because
>> >>> although stoich is chemically the best ratio, "best"
>> >>> ratios vary depending on your needs, for power,
>> >>> emmissions, economy, driveability, etc...(hence PE
>> >>> mode).
>> >>>
>> >>> What sites?  I have to admit, I've only skimmed some
>> >>> of the WB sites found in a Google search, I don't have
>> >>> any suggestions for which is most detailed...  But
>> >>> don't worry, none of them I saw are trying to use NB
>> >>> sensors outside stoich!
>> >>>
>> >>> Gas also said:
>> >>> >The NB sensor is a switch centering around, and
>> >>> > being most
>> >>> > sensitive at stoich.  It's sensitivity deteriorates
>> >>> > the farther from stoich
>> >>> > (either direction) the AFR.  There are NB O2 sensor
>> >>> > voltage to AFR
>> >>> > curve charts on the net, that verify this.  By
>> >>> > design, NB sensors need
>> >>> > not be accurate at AFRs away from stoichiometric.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks for clarifying and expanding on exactly what
>> >>> I'd said about NB O2 sensors!
>> >>>
>> >>> GAS continued:
>> >>> >  There is WB O2
>> >>> > sensor technology
>> >>> > however, that allows for PCM closed loop operation
>> >>> > at ratios leaner
>> >>> > (or richer) than stoich.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > GAS
>> >>>
>> >>> Again, my case stated more eloquently. Now I know why
>> >>> no one else responded to Darrell! :)
>> >>>  **********************END TRANSMISSION**********************
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors'
>> >>> Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
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>> >>
>> >>
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