[Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
Tom Prucha
tprucha
Sat Sep 24 06:24:17 UTC 2005
In 1987 I purchased several TiO2 sensors from NTK for my 87 Regal T 3.8L
turbo. These were 18mm units mechanically configured like the factory
GM sensor but with a heater. I was interested because of the lead
tolerance characteristics for when the car was used off-road (I like to
drag race). An NTK engineer set me up with a translation provision to
convert the signal to the standard 0 to 1 V configuration by using a
single resistor. If I recall correctly, Zirconia sensors are voltage
producing sensors and Titania sensors are current producing devices. The
resistor to ground was used to convert the current signal to a 0 to 1v
signal. I think it was a 10K Ohm resistor, if I recall correctly. The
value of the resistor sets the voltage range AND can provide a slight
shift of the effective switch point.
GM was considering the TiO2 device due to problems with fuel
contamination in the mid 1980s. NTK made a batch of these for a GM
evaluation and they never bought them all. I bought about 50 of these
(the remainder of the unused batch) and sold all but a few that I kept
for myself (sold and used for off-road use only of course). The same
sensor was made in 12mm too and I believe it did make into production on
a Nissan Pathfinder, but none of the 18mm units were ever made for a
production application. The NTK engineer also set me up with 12mm to
18mm adapters so the production units could be used, but I never did use
any 12mm sensors. I have no idea what a modern day TiO2 would be
configured like electrically or mechanically, but all the 1987 vintage
NTK TiO2 units needed was a resistor to adapt to a GM ECM.
I burned a few of the sensors over the course of over 200K miles since
the car was new. The sensing head on the sensor was smaller than stock,
allowing a smaller exhaust obstruction (very cool). I managed to burn a
little whole in the shield with a leanout on a few occasions, retiring
the sensor. I think I am still on my 3rd sensor in all those miles and
years. I still run a TiO2 sensor in my car today, but the car is "down"
right now with a transmission problem.
Tom
WopOnTour wrote:
> It has been my understanding titiania type sensors were strictly a
> "resistive" element in an O2 circuit with an 5V reference with an
> internal dropping resistance. They affect the voltage in much the same
> way as an ECT or other temperature sensor, responding to O2 content in
> the exhaust. Since they don't use zirconium plates to manipulate ions
> thus shifting the 450mV reference voltage O2 above and below that
> level, I can't see how adding a resistor to the circuit is going to
> affect a Buick ECM/PCM as it most certainly puts out only 450mV.
> Please "clarify"
> Thanks
> WOT
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Prucha"
> <tprucha at wideopenwest.com>
> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 7:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>
>
>> I've been running TiO2 sensors for years on my Buick by using a
>> resistor between the signal output and ground to get a nice 0 to 1V
>> resultant signal. I don't know if the the new ones will still do
>> that or not. TiO2 is also nearly immune to lead fouling compared to
>> Zirconia.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> Aaron McBride wrote:
>>
>>> An O2 sensor that reads0-5 volts is a Titainia type O2 sensor, It
>>> sends the
>>> PCM a signal based on resistance instead of 0-1 volt like a
>>> Zirconium O2
>>> Sensor. 5 volt reference, 3.5-4.5 = rich, .5-1.5 = lean. Not
>>> compatible with
>>> the older style O2 sensors, Alot of late model Diamler/Chrysler
>>> vehicles
>>> have gone to this style. Aaron
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell" <ndarrell at telusplanet.net>
>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:48 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Mark:
>>>>
>>>> I took a look at their website, looks interesting and relatively
>>>> cheep. One thing i noticed, though, is that their nb output voltage
>>>> didn't look compatible with a standard O2, and it was 0-5 instead of
>>>> 0-1v. What up with dat?
>>>>
>>>> On 20 Sep 2005 at 21:12, Mark Romans wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Why re-create the wheel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4576708442&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
>>>
>>>
>>>>> When it's already been done and works really well!
>>>>>
>>>>> It datalogs your wideband and simulates your narrow band to the ecm.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.zeitronix.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell"
>>>>> <ndarrell at telusplanet.net>
>>>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 9:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, not necessarily. I knew the signal range was different,
>>>>>> adapting
>>>>>> the output to a different range would be cake (i'm an electronics
>>>>>> tech). I shoulda been a bit clearer, but it seems you guys always
>>>>>> take the worst possible interpretation. =D
>>>>>> I like the idea someone else posted about adapting the signal to the
>>>>>> nb, and getting wideband data at the same time... with a little
>>>>>> tweaker to run the crossover point up and down, you could pretty
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> set the "stoich" point wherever you want, no programming. Might be
>>>>>> worth a look. Time to start lurking on the WBO2 list...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 17 Sep 2005 at 15:20, gary wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I incorrectly interpreted your reply to mean by any way possible.
>>>>>>> You obviously implied the use of a WB as a replacement without
>>>>>>> any additional hardware/software to assist the PCM/ECM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GAS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Romans"
>>>>>>> <romans at starstream.net>
>>>>>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 11:09 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Darrell: I stick with my statement as to your specific
>>>>>>>>
>>> question.
>>>
>>>>>>>> Obviously if you add an interface box you can use a wb output into
>>>>>>>> a narrow band input. I have a Zeitronix Wide band and it
>>>>>>>> allows me
>>>>>>>> to input a SIMULATED narrow band signal into the stock ecm while
>>>>>>>> using the WB to datalog actual afrs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SOME people don't realize that word semantics are critical when
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> are typing. "Clarification" would have been a better word
>>>>>>>> sincce I
>>>>>>>> wasn't technically wrong in the first place.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Romans"
>>>>>>>> <romans at starstream.net>
>>>>>>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 4:28 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No No No! You can't run a wide band in place of a narrow band.
>>>>>>>>> The Wide band puts out a somewhat linear 0-5 v output.
>>>>>>>>> The narrow band puts out a non-linear 0-1 v output.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Gmecm mailing list
>>>>>>> Gmecm at diy-efi.org
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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