[Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy

Sun Sep 25 19:30:15 UTC 2005

Interesting, thanks for the clarification Tom
Did using these NTK sensors require some sort of internal modifications to 
the ECM? But I still don't understand how the voltage in the circuit could 
ever exceed 450mV (as sourced by the ECM) strictly through resistance 
changes. IMO it would always read lean, and never go above 450mV.
WOT
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Prucha" <tprucha at wideopenwest.com>
To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy


> In 1987 I purchased several TiO2 sensors from NTK for my 87 Regal T 3.8L 
> turbo.  These were 18mm units mechanically configured like the factory GM 
> sensor but with a heater.  I was interested because of the lead tolerance 
> characteristics for when the car was used off-road (I like to drag race). 
> An NTK engineer set me up with a translation provision to convert the 
> signal to the standard 0 to 1 V configuration by using a single resistor. 
> If I recall correctly, Zirconia sensors are voltage producing sensors and 
> Titania sensors are current producing devices. The resistor to ground was 
> used to convert the current signal to a 0 to 1v signal. I think it was a 
> 10K Ohm resistor, if I recall correctly. The value of the resistor sets 
> the voltage range AND can provide a slight shift of the effective switch 
> point.
>
> GM was considering the TiO2 device due to problems with fuel contamination 
> in the mid 1980s.  NTK made a batch of these for a GM evaluation and they 
> never bought them all. I bought about 50 of these (the remainder of the 
> unused batch) and sold all but a few that I kept for myself (sold and used 
> for off-road use only of course).  The same sensor was made in 12mm too 
> and I believe it did make into production on a Nissan Pathfinder, but none 
> of the 18mm units were ever made for a production application.  The NTK 
> engineer also set me up with 12mm to 18mm adapters so the production units 
> could be used, but I never did use any 12mm sensors.  I have no idea what 
> a modern day TiO2 would be configured like electrically or mechanically, 
> but all the 1987 vintage NTK TiO2 units needed was a resistor to adapt to 
> a GM ECM.
>
> I burned a few of the sensors over the course of over 200K miles since the 
> car was new.  The sensing head on the sensor was smaller than stock, 
> allowing a smaller exhaust obstruction (very cool). I managed to burn a 
> little whole in the shield with a leanout on a few occasions, retiring the 
> sensor. I think I am still on my 3rd sensor in all those miles and years. 
> I still run a TiO2 sensor in my car today, but the car is "down" right now 
> with a transmission problem.
>
> Tom
>
> WopOnTour wrote:
>
>> It has been my understanding titiania type sensors were strictly a 
>> "resistive" element  in an O2 circuit with an 5V reference with an 
>> internal dropping resistance. They affect the voltage in much the same 
>> way as an ECT or other temperature sensor, responding to O2 content in 
>> the exhaust. Since they don't use zirconium plates to manipulate ions 
>> thus shifting the 450mV reference voltage O2 above and below that level, 
>> I can't see how adding a resistor to the circuit is going to affect a 
>> Buick ECM/PCM as it most certainly puts out only 450mV. Please "clarify"
>> Thanks
>> WOT
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Prucha" 
>> <tprucha at wideopenwest.com>
>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 7:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>
>>
>>> I've been running TiO2 sensors for years on my Buick by using a resistor 
>>> between the signal output and ground to get a nice 0 to 1V resultant 
>>> signal.  I don't know if the the new ones will still do that or not. 
>>> TiO2 is also nearly immune to lead fouling compared to Zirconia.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> Aaron McBride wrote:
>>>
>>>> An O2 sensor that reads0-5 volts is a Titainia type O2 sensor, It sends 
>>>> the
>>>> PCM a signal based on resistance instead of 0-1 volt like a Zirconium 
>>>> O2
>>>> Sensor. 5 volt reference, 3.5-4.5 = rich, .5-1.5 = lean. Not compatible 
>>>> with
>>>> the older style O2 sensors, Alot of late model Diamler/Chrysler 
>>>> vehicles
>>>> have gone to this style. Aaron
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell" <ndarrell at telusplanet.net>
>>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:48 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Mark:
>>>>>
>>>>> I took a look at their website, looks interesting and relatively
>>>>> cheep.  One thing i noticed, though, is that their nb output voltage
>>>>> didn't look compatible with a standard O2, and it was 0-5 instead of
>>>>> 0-1v.  What up with dat?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 20 Sep 2005 at 21:12, Mark Romans wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why re-create the wheel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4576708442&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
>>>>
>>>>>> When it's already been done and works really well!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It datalogs your wideband and simulates your narrow band to the ecm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.zeitronix.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell" 
>>>>>> <ndarrell at telusplanet.net>
>>>>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 9:08 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, not necessarily.  I knew the signal range was different, 
>>>>>>> adapting
>>>>>>> the output to a different range would be cake (i'm an electronics
>>>>>>> tech).  I shoulda been a bit clearer, but it seems you guys always
>>>>>>> take the worst possible interpretation. =D
>>>>>>> I like the idea someone else posted about adapting the signal to the
>>>>>>> nb, and getting wideband data at the same time...  with a little
>>>>>>> tweaker to run the crossover point up and down, you could pretty 
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> set the "stoich" point wherever you want, no programming.  Might be
>>>>>>> worth a look.  Time to start lurking on the WBO2 list...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 17 Sep 2005 at 15:20, gary wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I incorrectly interpreted your reply to mean by any way possible.
>>>>>>>> You obviously implied the use of a WB as a replacement without
>>>>>>>> any additional hardware/software to assist the PCM/ECM.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> GAS
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Romans" 
>>>>>>>> <romans at starstream.net>
>>>>>>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 11:09 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Darrell:  I stick with my statement as to your specific
>>>>>>>>>
>>>> question.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Obviously if you add an interface box you can use a wb output into
>>>>>>>>> a narrow band input.  I have a Zeitronix Wide band and it allows 
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> to input a SIMULATED narrow band signal into the stock ecm while
>>>>>>>>> using the WB to datalog actual afrs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SOME people don't realize that word semantics are critical when 
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> are typing.  "Clarification" would have been a better word sincce 
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> wasn't technically wrong in the first place.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Romans" 
>>>>>>>>> <romans at starstream.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 4:28 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No No No!   You can't run a wide band in place of a narrow band.
>>>>>>>>>> The Wide band puts out a somewhat linear 0-5 v output.
>>>>>>>>>> The narrow band puts out a non-linear 0-1 v output.
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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