[Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
Tom Prucha
tprucha
Sun Sep 25 20:50:41 UTC 2005
The TiO2 sensor I used were current sources, meaning that they produce
current, like a zirconia sensor makes a voltage. If it wasn't for the
fact that a Zirconia sensor produces the voltage, the signal wouldn't go
over 450mv either. When the current is shunted through the resister to
ground, a resultant voltage drop occurs across the resister, yielding a
0 to 1V signal.
WopOnTour wrote:
> Interesting, thanks for the clarification Tom
> Did using these NTK sensors require some sort of internal
> modifications to the ECM? But I still don't understand how the voltage
> in the circuit could ever exceed 450mV (as sourced by the ECM)
> strictly through resistance changes. IMO it would always read lean,
> and never go above 450mV.
> WOT
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Prucha"
> <tprucha at wideopenwest.com>
> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 12:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>
>
>> In 1987 I purchased several TiO2 sensors from NTK for my 87 Regal T
>> 3.8L turbo. These were 18mm units mechanically configured like the
>> factory GM sensor but with a heater. I was interested because of the
>> lead tolerance characteristics for when the car was used off-road (I
>> like to drag race). An NTK engineer set me up with a translation
>> provision to convert the signal to the standard 0 to 1 V
>> configuration by using a single resistor. If I recall correctly,
>> Zirconia sensors are voltage producing sensors and Titania sensors
>> are current producing devices. The resistor to ground was used to
>> convert the current signal to a 0 to 1v signal. I think it was a 10K
>> Ohm resistor, if I recall correctly. The value of the resistor sets
>> the voltage range AND can provide a slight shift of the effective
>> switch point.
>>
>> GM was considering the TiO2 device due to problems with fuel
>> contamination in the mid 1980s. NTK made a batch of these for a GM
>> evaluation and they never bought them all. I bought about 50 of these
>> (the remainder of the unused batch) and sold all but a few that I
>> kept for myself (sold and used for off-road use only of course). The
>> same sensor was made in 12mm too and I believe it did make into
>> production on a Nissan Pathfinder, but none of the 18mm units were
>> ever made for a production application. The NTK engineer also set me
>> up with 12mm to 18mm adapters so the production units could be used,
>> but I never did use any 12mm sensors. I have no idea what a modern
>> day TiO2 would be configured like electrically or mechanically, but
>> all the 1987 vintage NTK TiO2 units needed was a resistor to adapt to
>> a GM ECM.
>>
>> I burned a few of the sensors over the course of over 200K miles
>> since the car was new. The sensing head on the sensor was smaller
>> than stock, allowing a smaller exhaust obstruction (very cool). I
>> managed to burn a little whole in the shield with a leanout on a few
>> occasions, retiring the sensor. I think I am still on my 3rd sensor
>> in all those miles and years. I still run a TiO2 sensor in my car
>> today, but the car is "down" right now with a transmission problem.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> WopOnTour wrote:
>>
>>> It has been my understanding titiania type sensors were strictly a
>>> "resistive" element in an O2 circuit with an 5V reference with an
>>> internal dropping resistance. They affect the voltage in much the
>>> same way as an ECT or other temperature sensor, responding to O2
>>> content in the exhaust. Since they don't use zirconium plates to
>>> manipulate ions thus shifting the 450mV reference voltage O2 above
>>> and below that level, I can't see how adding a resistor to the
>>> circuit is going to affect a Buick ECM/PCM as it most certainly puts
>>> out only 450mV. Please "clarify"
>>> Thanks
>>> WOT
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Prucha"
>>> <tprucha at wideopenwest.com>
>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 7:13 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>
>>>
>>>> I've been running TiO2 sensors for years on my Buick by using a
>>>> resistor between the signal output and ground to get a nice 0 to 1V
>>>> resultant signal. I don't know if the the new ones will still do
>>>> that or not. TiO2 is also nearly immune to lead fouling compared to
>>>> Zirconia.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Aaron McBride wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> An O2 sensor that reads0-5 volts is a Titainia type O2 sensor, It
>>>>> sends the
>>>>> PCM a signal based on resistance instead of 0-1 volt like a
>>>>> Zirconium O2
>>>>> Sensor. 5 volt reference, 3.5-4.5 = rich, .5-1.5 = lean. Not
>>>>> compatible with
>>>>> the older style O2 sensors, Alot of late model Diamler/Chrysler
>>>>> vehicles
>>>>> have gone to this style. Aaron
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell"
>>>>> <ndarrell at telusplanet.net>
>>>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:48 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I took a look at their website, looks interesting and relatively
>>>>>> cheep. One thing i noticed, though, is that their nb output voltage
>>>>>> didn't look compatible with a standard O2, and it was 0-5 instead of
>>>>>> 0-1v. What up with dat?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 20 Sep 2005 at 21:12, Mark Romans wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why re-create the wheel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4576708442&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> When it's already been done and works really well!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It datalogs your wideband and simulates your narrow band to the
>>>>>>> ecm.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.zeitronix.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell"
>>>>>>> <ndarrell at telusplanet.net>
>>>>>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 9:08 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, not necessarily. I knew the signal range was different,
>>>>>>>> adapting
>>>>>>>> the output to a different range would be cake (i'm an electronics
>>>>>>>> tech). I shoulda been a bit clearer, but it seems you guys always
>>>>>>>> take the worst possible interpretation. =D
>>>>>>>> I like the idea someone else posted about adapting the signal
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> nb, and getting wideband data at the same time... with a little
>>>>>>>> tweaker to run the crossover point up and down, you could
>>>>>>>> pretty much
>>>>>>>> set the "stoich" point wherever you want, no programming.
>>>>>>>> Might be
>>>>>>>> worth a look. Time to start lurking on the WBO2 list...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 17 Sep 2005 at 15:20, gary wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I incorrectly interpreted your reply to mean by any way possible.
>>>>>>>>> You obviously implied the use of a WB as a replacement without
>>>>>>>>> any additional hardware/software to assist the PCM/ECM.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> GAS
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Romans"
>>>>>>>>> <romans at starstream.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 11:09 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Darrell: I stick with my statement as to your specific
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Obviously if you add an interface box you can use a wb output
>>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>> a narrow band input. I have a Zeitronix Wide band and it
>>>>>>>>>> allows me
>>>>>>>>>> to input a SIMULATED narrow band signal into the stock ecm while
>>>>>>>>>> using the WB to datalog actual afrs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> SOME people don't realize that word semantics are critical
>>>>>>>>>> when you
>>>>>>>>>> are typing. "Clarification" would have been a better word
>>>>>>>>>> sincce I
>>>>>>>>>> wasn't technically wrong in the first place.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Romans"
>>>>>>>>>> <romans at starstream.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <gmecm at diy-efi.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 4:28 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Gmecm] Re: Fuel Economy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No No No! You can't run a wide band in place of a narrow
>>>>>>>>>>> band.
>>>>>>>>>>> The Wide band puts out a somewhat linear 0-5 v output.
>>>>>>>>>>> The narrow band puts out a non-linear 0-1 v output.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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