DIY_EFI Digest V5 #215
DIY_EFI Digest
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Thu Jun 15 11:35:10 GMT 2000
DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, June 13 2000 Volume 05 : Number 215
In this issue:
Fuel Cooling Intake Air
Try this link
New to the list...
Re: New to the list...
Re: Fuel Cooling Intake Air
Re: Try this link
Re: Try this link
Re: Try this link
Re: Try this link
Re: Bosch Motronics
RE: Bosch Motronics
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:11:25 -0400
From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
Subject: Fuel Cooling Intake Air
Been doing way too much thinking about water injection, whatda surprise,
eh.
Anyway, was thinking, rather then using water at the intake side of the
Intercooler, why not use fuel there. Evaporates at a lower temp., and
should make for a real nice way of adding more fuel when I want it. Mind
you it's primary goal is charge cooling. There'll probably be a 7th
injector for a shoot of fuel up top or for spooling up the turbo, without
having to get into the code side of things. Just use a Hobbs switch for
boost usage, and a set of comparators, and logic for the spooling.
Granted it won't take as much heat out as water.
This is in addition to water right behind the TB
Grumpy
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:09:12 +0100
From: "Gavin" <gavston at sprockets.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Try this link
just found this snippet of info on the web. Not much good, but it may be of
somegood to someone!!!
http://www.tri-m.com/tech_pages/techpaper8.html
- -Gavin
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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:06:19 +0100
From: "TVS" <TKMVS at clara.net>
Subject: New to the list...
New to the list and could do with some advice regarding a EFI project!
I'm in the process of fitting, and modifying, a Bosch L Jetronic EFI to a
MG Midget. I've got most of the bits including the ECU from Jaguar XJ6.
In order to recalibrate the system I'm planing on reading the analogue
output from the airflow metre with a laptop PC. The PC will then use a
lookup table for airflow and rpm to find a new value which will be converted
to analogue and sent to the ECU. I'm also going to fit a O2 sensor to ether
help me build up a map or run in closed loop with the PC. Can anybody tell
me if I'm missing something important or got something fundamentally wrong?!
I've got a few more plans/questions:
1) The O2 sensor has 4 wires (From a Bosch Motronic I think) 2 white going
to a red plug... power? and a grey and black... out put with black ground?
2) How many times persecond should the PC be able to read the data/look up
value/output data? I was considering about > 10Hz if possible.
3) What sort of resolution should the look-up-table/map have? Again I
reckoned on 0.1V from the airflow metre (2.5V to 7.5V I think) and 50rpm.
RPM range from 500-7500rpm so giving me around 7000 values in a 140/50
table?
4) If I have sufficient processor time left mapped ignition would be nice...
but I'm running out of ports on a laptop! (only one parallel port)
5) Oh, and perhaps most important... the ECU fires the injectors every 3rd
ignition pulse as it from a 6 cylnd. engine. I need it to fire every 2nd.
Can I modify the 'divide by 3' bit in the ECU or should I fit a sensor in
the dizzy/on the crank to send 3 pulses per rev to it?
6) As the flap airflow metre looks like it's going to be quite a restriction
on the flow... I was wondering if I could use a hot wire meter from a JE
system. Are these self contained units? i.e. do I just supply it with power
and it gives a voltage out like a flap meter? Or does the ECU from these
systmes need to do some clever suff as well?!
All advice other than 'Don't do it!' ( I have had that in the past ;-)
gratefully received... Please excuse any spelling mistakes that make it past
the checker...Dyslexic :-( Many thanks, Toby.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:32:07 -0400
From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
Subject: Re: New to the list...
Different Displacements?.
Different number of cylinders.
Your braver then I.
If your in the states might rethink and use just a hac'd gm ecm.
I'm not familiar with all the strategies inna Bosch but there's alot going
on in an oem ecm, and without knowing all the tables, settings, switches,
and actual code you might wind up quitting. Just a matter of starting at
the beginning, rather then redesigning the wheel
Grumpy
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "TVS" <TKMVS at clara.net>
To: "DIY EFI" <DIY_EFI at lists.diy-efi.org>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 7:06 PM
Subject: New to the list...
> New to the list and could do with some advice regarding a EFI project!
> I'm in the process of fitting, and modifying, a Bosch L Jetronic EFI to
a
> MG Midget. I've got most of the bits including the ECU from Jaguar XJ6.
>
> In order to recalibrate the system I'm planing on reading the analogue
> output from the airflow metre with a laptop PC. The PC will then use a
> lookup table for airflow and rpm to find a new value which will be
converted
> to analogue and sent to the ECU. I'm also going to fit a O2 sensor to
ether
> help me build up a map or run in closed loop with the PC. Can anybody
tell
> me if I'm missing something important or got something fundamentally
wrong?!
>
> I've got a few more plans/questions:
> 1) The O2 sensor has 4 wires (From a Bosch Motronic I think) 2 white going
> to a red plug... power? and a grey and black... out put with black ground?
>
> 2) How many times persecond should the PC be able to read the data/look up
> value/output data? I was considering about > 10Hz if possible.
>
> 3) What sort of resolution should the look-up-table/map have? Again I
> reckoned on 0.1V from the airflow metre (2.5V to 7.5V I think) and 50rpm.
> RPM range from 500-7500rpm so giving me around 7000 values in a 140/50
> table?
>
> 4) If I have sufficient processor time left mapped ignition would be
nice...
> but I'm running out of ports on a laptop! (only one parallel port)
>
> 5) Oh, and perhaps most important... the ECU fires the injectors every 3rd
> ignition pulse as it from a 6 cylnd. engine. I need it to fire every 2nd.
> Can I modify the 'divide by 3' bit in the ECU or should I fit a sensor in
> the dizzy/on the crank to send 3 pulses per rev to it?
>
> 6) As the flap airflow metre looks like it's going to be quite a
restriction
> on the flow... I was wondering if I could use a hot wire meter from a JE
> system. Are these self contained units? i.e. do I just supply it with
power
> and it gives a voltage out like a flap meter? Or does the ECU from these
> systmes need to do some clever suff as well?!
>
> All advice other than 'Don't do it!' ( I have had that in the past ;-)
> gratefully received... Please excuse any spelling mistakes that make it
past
> the checker...Dyslexic :-( Many thanks, Toby.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
> To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the
quotes)
> in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org
>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:40:37 -0700
From: romans at starstream.net (Romans, Mark)
Subject: Re: Fuel Cooling Intake Air
I've seen articles on this being done with race fuel too.
Mark
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 11:11 AM
Subject: Fuel Cooling Intake Air
>
>
> Been doing way too much thinking about water injection, whatda surprise,
> eh.
> Anyway, was thinking, rather then using water at the intake side of the
> Intercooler, why not use fuel there. Evaporates at a lower temp., and
> should make for a real nice way of adding more fuel when I want it. Mind
> you it's primary goal is charge cooling. There'll probably be a 7th
> injector for a shoot of fuel up top or for spooling up the turbo, without
> having to get into the code side of things. Just use a Hobbs switch for
> boost usage, and a set of comparators, and logic for the spooling.
> Granted it won't take as much heat out as water.
> This is in addition to water right behind the TB
> Grumpy
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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quotes)
> in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org
>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:51:32 -0700
From: garwillis at msn.com (Garfield Willis)
Subject: Re: Try this link
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:09:12 +0100, "Gavin"
<gavston at sprockets.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>just found this snippet of info on the web. Not much good, but it may be of
>somegood to someone!!!
>
>http://www.tri-m.com/tech_pages/techpaper8.html
Is this a thinly disguised troll? :)
An important and useful topic, sadly somewhat mangled...
The topic is "silicon avalanche diodes", commonly known as transorbs,
used for protecting expensive/delicate circuitry from the harsh
automotive environment.
That article above is unfortunately a case of some guy touting their
particular power supply design, and essentially saying "my dog's bigger
than your dog". In short, it's a good bit of marketing hype.
What I mean is, he says:
"Standard devices such as transorbs (P6KE or 1.5KE) will not survive the
high energy discharge of a load dump. Special 'automotive' suppressors
must be used to suck up the 20A to 30A peak currents being shunted."
What he doesn't tell you is the very device he's touting the superiority
of their power supply because of, a "Diodes Inc. part# 5KP43A", as he
puts it, is indeed a TRANSORB *just like* the ones he says above "will
not survive". Only thing about the 5KP devices is they're rated the next
step up in peak pulse power. That's ALL. So much for "special automotive
suppressors"! The fact is that there are even MANY voltage regulators
made for automotive use that are rated against load dump, according to
the SAE definition of a load dump, and I can tell ya FO SHO they aren't
rated for no 5kW PPP. See below.
Trouble with this sort of logic is that another competitor could come
along, use a 15KP device (that's the next bigger one up from the 5KP),
and then say "their dog was now bigger" :).
The other thing that's misleading about that lil blurb is the suggestion
that devices like transorbs are there as the only line of defense
against transients like load dump. That's nonsense; the main purpose of
things like transorbs is to protect electronics against FAST transients
that fuses, breakers, and OVP (over-voltage protection; for example
crowbars) are too slow to see, by absorbing enough of the energy in the
transient to provoke (and provide enough time for) the secondary line of
defense (fuses or breakers) to operate. And if necessary, destroy
themselves failed-short so that nothing beyond the transorb suffers
permanent damage. But that's absolutely worst-case scenario; albeit
another important role for these devices if need be.
Last year I heard first-hand from a famous demo pilot (Bob Hoover), of a
case where his alternator failed, dumped 100+VAC onto his main bus, and
fried $50K worth of avionics, that WOULD have been protected if he'd had
proper suppression devices installed, such as transorbs. That
overvoltage would have tripped all the transorbs hanging across every
device, and caused an effective short lasting long enough to pop most
all of his panel breakers. But because transorbs are "new technology"
for the archaic field of general aviation, he had a panel full of the
latest sensitive stuff, but would have had to have special certification
to add the transorbs (they really should be in each piece of
instrumentation anyway). He wasn't able to perform for the airshow, cuz
nearly his entire panel of fancy instruments were fried! To make things
worse, he discovered his insurance didn't cover it. Yow.
Transorbs (or tranzorbs, or TVSs, aka "Silicon Avalanche Diode", a
special high-speed, high-energy form of a zener diode), are currently
the FASTEST and most reliable form of overvoltage protection [in
comparison to thyristor-based clamps or crowbars, MOV (metal oxide
varistors), etc].
I wish I could refer y'all to a single good source of poop on Transorbs;
alas, I don't know of a good online tutorial that's specific to
automotive protection. I woulda thot there would be one, but I've never
run across it; there are many EE appnotes detailing their use, however.
HTH,
Gar
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:08:03 -0400
From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
Subject: Re: Try this link
He do air shows with a Turbo prop corporate job (twin engine high wing?)?.
Name seems familiar
Grumpy
> Last year I heard first-hand from a famous demo pilot (Bob Hoover), of a
> case where his alternator failed, dumped 100+VAC onto his main bus, and
> fried $50K worth of avionics, that WOULD have been protected if he'd had
> proper suppression devices installed, such as transorbs. That
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:54:48 -0700
From: garwillis at msn.com (Garfield Willis)
Subject: Re: Try this link
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:08:03 -0400, "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
wrote:
>He do air shows with a Turbo prop corporate job (twin engine high wing?)?.
>Name seems familiar
Yup, that's him. The "act" is all about "energy management", a topic
nearNdear to pilots' hearts; it's most fundamental and mundane aspect is
"can you get to an alternate airport from wherever you happen to find
yourself in need". Knowing how to convert just the right amount of
potential energy (aka "altitude") into kinetic energy (aka "airspeed")
is a highly prized skill. Space Shuttle pilots have to be VERY good at
energy management, for example. Heh.
Probly somewhat akin to developing the finesse of speed/cornering/brake
management in road-racing? Same sorta fun, being propelled somewhere via
motive power, *with finesse*, I warrant. :)
Gar
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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:06:42 -0400
From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp at bright.net>
Subject: Re: Try this link
> >He do air shows with a Turbo prop corporate job (twin engine high
wing?)?.
> >Name seems familiar
> Yup, that's him. The "act" is all about "energy management", a topic
> nearNdear to pilots' hearts;
Oh, I think it applies to just about anything that worries about effecincy.
Using software / hardware to keep a turbo spooled up is my big concern.
Funny how so much ties into ecm stuff
Grumpy
it's most fundamental and mundane aspect is
> "can you get to an alternate airport from wherever you happen to find
> yourself in need". Knowing how to convert just the right amount of
> potential energy (aka "altitude") into kinetic energy (aka "airspeed")
> is a highly prized skill. Space Shuttle pilots have to be VERY good at
> energy management, for example. Heh.
> Probly somewhat akin to developing the finesse of speed/cornering/brake
> management in road-racing? Same sorta fun, being propelled somewhere via
> motive power, *with finesse*, I warrant. :)
> Gar
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:45:35 +0100
From: "Roderick Warner" <Roderick_Warner at notes.teradyne.com>
Subject: Re: Bosch Motronics
Origional Message :
- -----------------------------------------
From: Rich M [mailto:rsrich at cwcom.net]
Sent: 09 June 2000 10:51
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: Unfamiliar ECUs (was: SV: Wide Band Oxygen Sensor EGOR)
hi to you fellow UK-ers!
I am UK based also, my interests relate mainly to Bosch Motronics, not that
many people here playing with these - Albert and his Isuzu aside.
Plenty interesting reading tho' !
Rich.
Hi Rich
I currently run a Rover V8 engine in a TR7 , which I recently converted to
the Lucas EFI , with moderate success- I need to get it onto a rolling road to
see whats happening at high revs though as i suspect its a bit weak - but to cut
a long story short I intend to attempt to go to a Motronics ECU in the future-
from a 86 BMW 525 . It is reprogrammable, unlike the Lucas 4CU and uses an
Intel 8051. I would eventually like to use the ignition control of the Motronics
as well - I am collecting background data etc so that I can have a good shot at
it this winter.
I know of a few good books and have some info , so if you wish to share
info / ideas let me know.
Rod Warner
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:38:28 +0100
From: "Rich M" <rsrich at cwcom.net>
Subject: RE: Bosch Motronics
Hi Rod,
I don't think I'll be able to help much at the moment, my knowledge is
limited to experience of 'standard' system operation, I have yet to delve
into the inner workings (apart from having had the lid off a few to have a
look of course!). I think you may well run into some interesting challenges
with a controller from a 525 6-cylinder engine running a V8?
Are you aware of the Rover GEMS syatem which is used on the later Range
Rover and Land Rover V8 models, 1994 onwards? Maybe this could be some
interest - controls both ignition and fuelling including distributorless
ignition. The application includes the 4.6L version of the Rover V8 so
should have a bit of 'headroom' to deal with tuned versions of the 3.5L
which I'm guessing you probably have?
Good luck
Rich.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org [mailto:owner-diy_efi at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of Roderick Warner
> Sent: 12 June 2000 16:46
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: Bosch Motronics
>
> Hi Rich
>
> I currently run a Rover V8 engine in a TR7 , which I
> recently converted to
> the Lucas EFI , with moderate success- I need to get it onto a
> rolling road to
> see whats happening at high revs though as i suspect its a bit
> weak - but to cut
> a long story short I intend to attempt to go to a Motronics ECU
> in the future-
> from a 86 BMW 525 . It is reprogrammable, unlike the Lucas 4CU
> and uses an
> Intel 8051. I would eventually like to use the ignition control
> of the Motronics
> as well - I am collecting background data etc so that I can have
> a good shot at
> it this winter.
> I know of a few good books and have some info , so if you
> wish to share
> info / ideas let me know.
>
>
> Rod Warner
>
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