Improper DIY_EFI behaviour-or BS from the sidelines

[Bruce Plecan]

For those that were here for the last go around, about banning people, this
is just a rehash of a year ago, so feel free to delete now.....

Talk about getting things backward.
  Gar was trying to say folks some time.  And you bash him?.  What logic is
there in that?.
  His language not PC, who gives a rat's ass.  If you do, well pal that's
what the delete button is for.
  Ya gonna post something as information, fine, but be willing to consede
when wrong, or find the right answer.  Kinda maybes are a waste of time.
Wish ya had been a helper with programming 101.  Post an error around here,
and you will usually be corrected.  That's one of the powers of this list.
The problem is so much gets repeated, when reading the, tada, *reading the
archives* would have answered it.
  Try answering the same guestion a couple dozen times and see where your at
with things.  Gee, while sitting on the side lines, you got offended, aww.
  By the way, there are some WB O2s, done by list members (or they were),
guess what?, they also refuse to share, again that's their option.  There
are lots of folks that are with holding info., and some, go way out of their
way at times to post a little tidbit that is really a gem.
  The noise to truth ratio, is really on the down hill slide around here
lately, IMHO.
The law that should be enforced is reading the archives 3x..  That would
save all alot of time, and repeating the same ground 16x.
Grumpy
   I'll raise ya one, what direct efi content is in your letter?.  Other
then the babbling about hovercraft?.    Maybe you ought to be banded for a
few months, maybe those that never have anything productive to say should be
banned.  That's it we can all go home now cause you don't like something.



----- Original Message -----
From: "John Dammeyer" <johnd at autoartisans.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 12:39 PM
Subject: Improper DIY_EFI behaviour


> Hi all,
>
> I normally cut and snip to keep the content of my replies as short as
> possible but in this case I've left the message intact so I cannot be
> accused of taking something out of context.
>
> I too have been watching the postings on O2 sensors for quite some time.
> I've managed to use a standard Honda HEGO sensor to tune the
> Hovercraft/Aircraft engines without damage to the engines.  The only
> time we had problems was when the fuel supply was so contaminated that
> the fuel pump flow was restricted and injector #3 became blocked
> resulting in burnt plugs and valves.  (They found filings and RTV in the
> gas tank and when they cut open the RACCOR filter it was stuffed).  For
> safety, during development, we have always cross checked the O2 output
> with EGT and never allowed the EGT to exceed 1450F during testing.
>
> Needless to say I have had a huge interest in the wide band sensors.  I
> personally think the project from Paul in South Africa is an excellent
> idea.  The whole concept of this list is for a free exchange of
> information and ideas like the DIY332 project etc.  So the posting from
> Garfield Willis below bothers me.  It would be equivalent to NGK posting
> a comment that Paul's curves and information are wrong and that everyone
> should buy NGK's hardware for $$$.  I'd resent that type of posting too.
>
> The thing is,  because Garfield is selling (or soon will be) a product
> that uses the Wide Band Sensor,  he has a vested interest in keeping the
> technical details, curves, voltages etc. to himself just as NGK does.
> That is his right and I'll defend his right to do that!  However,  I do
> not think he has the right _to_use_this_forum_ as an advertisement for
> his own product with the tone that Paul is "a loudmouth
> guy...bullshit...audacity...bogus".
>
> I would like the Administrator of this list to issue a warning to
> Garfield Willis that anymore postings like the one below, with a
> reference to a commercial product for sale (or soon to be for sale),
> will result in his suspension from the list for one month.  This isn't
> the forum for slamming someone's efforts to produce something better for
> all of us.  If the postings continue, ones which deride or insult others
> or advertise a product, than I suggest a permanent ban.  Let Garfield
> Willis use conventional marketing avenues for selling his product.
>
> If Paul succeeds and ends up publishing a schematic and interface
> information that correctly identifies how to use the wide band sensor I
> think we all,  as a DIY_EFI community, will benefit.  We all know that
> if we use a circuit or idea posted (with the best of intentions), here
> that an error may cause us to blow up an engine.  That's the risk we
> take with the DIY process.  When I post about what I have done I post
> with the best of intentions about what I know.  If I make a mistake I'd
> like it pointed out so that I can learn from that.  I don't think we
> need messages that claim that suddenly I'm lying.
>
> I quote Garfield from his message below:
> "In the case of the guy spreading the bull about the Honda sensors, it's
> not innocent. When you claim to know something you don't, you're
> frigging LYING, dood"
>
> Let's keep this list as a place where we help people not insult them.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> John Dammeyer
>
> >
> > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:11:29 -0700
> > From: garwillis at msn.com (Garfield Willis)
> > Subject: Re: Honda/NGK O2 sensor part # versus Horiba/NGK O2 sensor
> part #s
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > Ya know, I've been watching the events of the last few days with a sad
> > bit of tragic-comedic angst, from all the misinformation flying
> around.
> > First we have a loudmouth guy pop onto the list that claims he's going
> > to build an AFR interface using the Honda/NTK sensor, says all the
> > necessary info is there publically for the pickins, and then puts up a
> > web page in which he gives out at least THREE likely-to-be-fatal
> pieces
> > of bullshit, regarding the pumping current range (he gives figures
> that
> > are WAY OFF what those sensors take), AND has the audacity to publish
> a
> > completely bogus curve relating AFR to that already phoney range of
> Ip,
> > which curve he must have invented himself totally outta thin air, it's
> > soooo completely wrong. Finish that off with a schematic (without
> > values!) that you can't even CONNECT to the Honda/NTK sensor! (Guess
> why
> > you often find those kind of circuits in patents? :) And then asks for
> > comments/reports from others on how this works for them! Geez, go
> ahead
> > and lite that cigar with your hundred dollar bill. Be my guest, but
> > don't blame me later for not warning you. If you follow what he's put
> > out, you WILL fry your sensor. I don't have anything against a
> homebrew
> > project (hell, EGOR started out with that intent), but I sure have a
> > problem with putting out bogus 'info'.
> >
> > Now we have the sad case above, where Axel missed earlier warnings,
> > tried to swap out sensors, and melts some pistons on his Cosworth.
> Argh.
> >
> > I've also taken great pains to warn people not to either prematurely
> buy
> > sensors until we knew EGOR was going to happen (so nobody wasted their
> > money on a mere 'hope'), and even when EGOR was certain, warned
> *again*
> > against ignorantly playing with the sensors by forcing voltages or
> > currents on them, when others have posted conjectures and loose
> theories
> > about what makes them tick. I would have thot yous guys had better
> > judgment on who's informing you versus just shooting off their mouths.
> >
> > Fry pistons or sensors, you have only yourselves to blame for not
> > listening well, or for being unable to distinguish fairy-tales from
> > substance. I've tried to inform you as best I could. Either way, it's
> > your own dang fault.
> >
> > Last but not least, I gotta say this again; if yous guys dork with one
> > of these sensors and then later expect it to work properly with EGOR,
> > all bets are off. Ya been amply cautioned.
> >
> > Sorry for your loss, Axel. In your case, you just got caught by a
> > vendor's sneakiness; an innocent mistake. In the case of the guy
> > spreading the bull about the Honda sensors, it's not innocent. When
> you
> > claim to know something you don't, you're frigging LYING, dood.
> >
> > I feel a vacation coming on. See y'all around. The times, they are a
> > changin.
> >
> > Gar
> >
>
>
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