Mass Market EFI (was: Intake manifold construction, intercoolers)

[Bernd Felsche]

Greg Hermann tapped away at the keyboard with:
> At 11:24 AM 12/8/01, Bernd Felsche wrote:
[snip]
> >Don't mix "mass market" and competition paradigms.

> I wasn't. Just was saying that both venues have artificial
> displacement restrictions. Of a different sort, but the same
> design restriction, nevertheless.

The design restriction for mass-market is what people are prepared
to pay for private transport.  The design restriction for
professional motorsport is how much money you can screw out of your
sponsors/financiers on the promise that you'll win by pouring more
money into the project.

> >EFI is appealing in mass market because it is CHEAP to build,
> >install and maintain (over the nominal life of the car).
> 
> No. It is simply the cheapest way to meet emission regs.

It _also_ does that. Buyers demand all the other tangible benefits
that EFI delivers. Low cost of ownership through low fuel
consumption and low maintenance is a huge motivator to buying EFI.

> That
> >appeals to mass-market _buyers_.
> 
> What really appeals to them is getting the commie pigs to give
> them another "OK" sticker every year or two with minimal hassle
> (on top on minimal cost).

You'd be surprised that no such annual inspections are required in
the majority of places?

> The number of new cars produced
> >with carb'd engines is very small - production is restricted to
> >developing countries.
> 
> Where emission regs and "inspections" are virtually non-existent.

And where buyers are undemanding of the mode of transport. They're
happy that they don't have to walk 10 km a day, or get pushed off
the roof of a bus every once in a while.

> TBI is the LCD, and is diminishing as _buyers_
> >migrate to engines with port-injection due to better drivability and
> >fuel economy.
> 
> No. Port injection makes it possible to meet current cold start
> emission requirements. Plain and simple. TBI can't do it.

Must be news to Bosch and Magneti Marelli. Ever heard of Mono-jetronic?
As used in Opel Corsa, VW Polo, SEAT Ibiza, etc?

It sucks almost as badly as a carb setup when trying to start and
drive it when it's cold. There are ways and means of complying with
cold-start emission requirements. Fast-light cats aided by auxiliary
air pumps are just two examples.

> >It'll take another 5 to 10 years before direct gasoline injection to
> >reach the market penetration of port-injection. Partly because of
> >fleet ageing, partly because of the cost reductions that come with
> >development.
> 
> And--the motivating force behind DFI, is, again, regulations. This
> time mostly CAFE.

So engineers looking to meet customer demands for lower fuel
consumption with higher performance has nothing to do with it?

CAFE means nothing in EU. How many DI non-EU models are there in the
USA? Or to put it another way; why are only the Europeans and
Japanese look like they're actually building cars with direct
gasoline injection?

Could it be that the US doesn't have suitable fuels available for
the mass market?

Goodness, if CAFE was so important, shouldn't the government mandate
availability of suitable fuels? They haven't even ensured that
low-sulphur diesel fuel is available for clean-burning diesels.

> Speaking of which--DFI is the only thing that can compete with
> DCOE/IDA carbys in terms of BSFC !!

> Why?? Because it HAS GOT to have good fuel atomization to even function !

And a carb allows subsequent re-condensation; significantly-more
manifold wetting in mass-market cars than with port injection.
That's a driveability issue as much as emissions. Emissions bug the
government; driveability bugs the person actually driving and
probably owning the car.

> >> Not to mention that competent engineer/tuners are quite capable of
> >> making Weber DCOE/IDA carbys perform at least as well as EFI !
> >
> >Under all nominal operating conditions? On all sorts of cars?
> >At a price the customer can afford? I very much doubt that.
> 
> You knew perfectly well I was talking about competition engines in
> this one. You been taking debating lessons from the greenies or
> Slick Willie Klinton?? Gotta be one or the other !

No. DCOE is mentioned in the same breath as mass-market. My
definition of "perform" is also wider than yours.

It's you guys who (never) voted for Slick Willie.

> >> Also, not to mention that Jag's competitive advantage came
> >> virtually entirely from being the first to adopt the use of disc
> >> brakes in competition!
> >
> >So their chassis design was of no tangible benefit?

> Virtually none, or likely even a negative compared to the
> competition of their day. I spose you are going to try to tell me

Ahh.. swing axles compared to what Jaguar had?

> next that the Jag engine's twin cams helped it rev higher to make
> more power, in spite of its 4-3/16" stroke and con rod bolts that
> gave every evidence of having been made from used Tootsie Rolls !

A commodity which I've never seen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes)
in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo at lists.diy-efi.org