[Diy_efi] Additives

[Mike]

Hi,

Its not a matter of being 'convinced' as if there is any suggestion
of 100% certainty in anything we do, technical or otherwise !

It is on the balance of probabilities:-

a.	Metal particles are mostly ionic, tend to coalesce,
	unless there is clear compelling evidence to contrary.
	Copper and Lead are known to become congealed when
	subjected to pressure in areas such as gear pumps.
b.	Company makes an income promoting something different
	and uses 'hype', not hard technical evidence and very
	bad use of experimental methods coupled with selective
	use of anecdotal feedback from 'best' customers.
	AND company manipulates sensibilities of 'distributors'
	psyche in that they can make money from their associates,
	the 'greed' motive is higher on the agenda on these
	companies than any hard technical metallurgical evidence.
c.	Consumers with unclear use of any experimental methods
	'report' benefit with overtones of placebo psychology
	where emphasis is on income from beneficial results.
d.	Recognised oil manufacturers, Shell, Mobil etc. Go to
	great lengths to minmise contaminants in oil,
	ESPECIALLY any metallic particles !
e.	Car manufacturers have never promoted or condoned
	the use of any metal particles in engine oil.

On the combinatorial complexity of probabilities which you might
reasonably assign above, where do you think you would be best
served - using the best engine oils or paying a company with
dubious tactics to add bits of metal to your engine oil ?


Rgds

mike


At 10:00 AM 14/1/2003 +1100, you wrote:
>
>
>Mike,
>	Thank you for taking the time to explain, I understand your friend's anger.
>I can't say that I'm totally convinced yet, but you have certainly given
me significant food for thought, and I will investigate further.
>	By the way, our two cars are Peugeot 505GTI - L Jetronic - now 392,000km,
and Peugeot 505GTD Turbo 2.5l turbo diesel - now ~240,000km.
>	The GTI has started pinging significantly in the last 2 months (started
early December) so the recent discussion on advance/Knock/fuels/etc has
also been of great interest.
>
>Best Regards
>Bill W
>
>
>
>   
>
>>--__--__--
>>
>>Message: 1
>>Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:26:19
>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>From: Mike <erazmus at iinet.net.au>
>>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi digest, Vol 1 #427 - 13 msgs
>>Reply-To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>
>>This was a little while back and my friend was so 'put out'
>>after he cooled down and spoke to a lawyer he wanted nothing
>>more to do with *any* additive company... If I pressed him
>>on this it would open old wounds and I know you would not
>>get a relaxed response, there is nothing else you can discern
>>from his usage <shrug> He runs a diesel
>>engine advisory firm and found other people with anecdotal
>>evidence of problems with sludges etc So he was even less
>>interested in getting involved with disputes and slanging matches.
>>
>>The thing is what compelling evidence is there that the
>>metal particles *wont* congeal - when it is in their physical
>>and chemical nature to do exactly that !  ?
>>
>>Think about it, Lead and Copper are ionic metallic elements
>>that have a predisposition to clump togther and you'd need
>>some luck to have them stay separate - especially in say the
>>gear type oil pumps, that is more than likely to compress the
>>particles togther - with nothing in the non-ionic compounds
>>in oil to separate them again !
>>
>>Also, copper forms a *very* hygroscopic compound with
>>nitrates which you will find in blowby gases !
>>
>>Copper Nitrate is so badly hygroscopic that a dry crystal
>>will melt in its own agglomerated fluid - and you want
>>that floating around in an engine - no way hose-aye !
>>
>>Also Copper carbonate is a tad abrasive and that is
>>another compound that can easily form from blowby <sigh>
>>
>>No amount of engine preparation that I've seen will
>>instill any degree of comfort for the addition of
>>lead or copper particles *especially* when there is
>>no compelling evidence of a 'force' or compound to
>>keep them from congealing - except the income derived
>>from selling them...
>>
>>The only thing I add/do to my turbo engine is a small
>>amount of wynns oil thickener and an oil change each
>>3000-4000K with Mobil 1 synthetic, although my engine
>>has done some 230,000K or so it doesnt rattle or
>>hiccup mechanically and its tuned to give about 170KW
>>at the flyhweel...
>>
>>rgds
>>
>>mike
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>
>
>
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