[Diy_efi] Hydrogen Powered Vehicle

[Kalmbach, Kevin D]

This is great stuff, so many threads in one mail. Global conspiracies,
anarcy, xenophobia and actual science.

Here's my $.02.  In a past life I have been a nuclear engineer, so the
materials and chemistry of both H2 and reactor stuff aren't a stretch.  I am
a strong proponent of major nuke development as a means of meeting Kyoto
requirements, raising national security and protecting the ANWR from the
"greenies" so I can hunt there.

Aside from all the portability and distribution issues, Hydrogen combustion
(meaning combination with Oxygen) is a zero sum game.  Hydrogen is
manufactured, usually by hydrolysis. Petroleum is "mined".  Hydrocarbons
come to us ready to be combined with Oxygen. So petroleum combustion "gives"
us power. 

Chemically it takes just as much energy to separate Hydrogen from water as
is released when it recombines with oxygen. This cycle is more analogous to
a battery than a fuel. What is nifty about the stuff is it's use as an
energy TRANSPORT mechanism.  Rechargeable fuel cells should be lighter per
Kw than batteries and more environmentally friendly than lead/acid or
zinc/air.  

Liquid Hydrogen exists conveniently below the temperatures required for
superconductivity.  Somewhere out there I have seen a "future" type of
"battery" design that was basically a superconducting fuel cell running H2
rather than methane or alcohol.
Superconductivity will also be key to making direct electric drive more
efficient than thermal expansion in a PE to KE conversion device (car)

In my opinion, which I am entitled to, at some point Hydrogen is likely to
become the principal "working fluid" in vehicles.  This is due to high power
density and a variety of useful state changes and reactions. Not because it
is a good fuel.  Consuming it would be bad because it's hard to distribute.

Sorry this is so long. Flame away.


-----Original Message-----
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com [mailto:bearbvd at mindspring.com]
Sent: July 19, 2004 10:21 PM
To: A list for Do-It-Yourself EFI
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Hydrogen Powered Vehicle


At 5:35 PM 7/19/04, Peter Jonasson wrote:
>
>[Peter says...] Hydrogen to electricity to drive is more efficient than
>fossil fuels. It is when you use fossil fuels to make electricity that the
>efficiency is less.

This is neglecting the efficiency of converting whatever you start out with
to hydrogen--in a first order analysis.

If you go second or third order--you get into the materials needed to
handle the hydrogen properly, and the enviro cost of producing them, the
real energy cost of producing the hydrogen, the fact that you could
probably power the vehicle far more efficiently using whatever you used to
produce the hydrogen from in the first place, not to mention the added
vehicular bulk (and likely weight) needed to carry enough hydrogen to have
a decent range, and the effect of said bulk and weight on the performance
and fuel consumption of the vehicle--- on and on it goes.
>
>..Oh REALLY ?? Have we neglected the fact that, in some circumstances,
water
>..vapor is approximately 2 to 3 HUNDRED times as powerful a greenhouse gas
>..as CO2 is ????
>
>[Peter says...] As far as water vapour being a greenhouse gas... that is
>interesting... I would like to read more about that. Question... does that
>mean "any" water vapour is adding to the greenhouse effect? I thought the
>real problem was methane gas from cows... seriously.

Water vapor at high altitude is by FAR the most significant greenhouse gas
there is. Particularly if you live at high altitude, I am sure you are
aware of the difference in night-time temperatures on clear nights vs. on
nights with high cirrus cloud cover--particularly in winter. Cirrus clouds
are, in essence, water vapor at high altitude--and the natural ones are
also pretty much indistinguishable from jet-liner exhaust (con-trails).
>
>
>..And--the unspoken problem--the handling of hydrogen on an everyday basis
>..with non-exotic materials--is the 2 ton Kodiak bear hiding in the
hydrogen
>..greenie-freaks' closet !!
>[Peter says...] I totally agree, except for the greenie-freaks closet
thing.
>But I get your meaning.

I don't know if they even KNOW they have the closet, but if that particular
bear (or gorilla, if you will) is going to make  King Kong seem like a
loveable pet chimp if hydrogen fuel ever gets off of the ground !
>
> The PROBLEM is that it is NEITHER !!
>[Peter says...] It is cleaner, but cheaper...no! I erred, it will not be
>cheaper.

I disagree that it's cleaner. WHERE and HOW are you generating it ??
>
>..Because the government's _IDIOTIC_  'CAFE' regulations legislated them
out
>..of existence !!

>[Peter says...] Only thing I can say is, who did you vote for???? The point
>I am trying to make is... I like station wagons, and apparently so does
>Chrysler.

I like wagons, too. Especially two door wagons--such as Chevy's old Nomads,
and more recently, Opel's......
But--the fact is they were 'cars' under the CAFE regs, and pick-ups, SUV's,
and mini-vans are NOT !
If I could vote for the idiotic bureaucrats that generated this situation,
I would surely have voted to run the LOT of them into the private sector so
that they could go quietly bankrupt !!
>
>
>..Might be useful for running over a herd of greenie protesters---
>[Peter says...] I sense some real anger here Greg.

I don't suffer fools particularly well, and I resent it seriously when they
interfere in my life---

 I am not a Greenie-freak
>protestor hiding in a closet.

Glad to hear it.

 I am just a guy putting a TBI system onto a
>Jeep so it will pass the f*@ki%g emissions test so I can drive the thing.
>There is also a huge play factor, which is always good. I am almost afraid
>to ask what you drive.

Everything from a Volvo 740 to a herd of IHC's--Scout 800, Scout Traveller,
and a 1 ton 4x4 flatbed (7200 lbs. EMPTY weight). International never built
SUV's--but they d*mn sure built a lot of 'UV's', and pretty well defined
what 'utility' meant !
>
>..have concluded that the proponents of such things MUST be aware that it
>..could never work, and are therefore motivated by a totally different
>..agenda--namely, to deprive most of us of our freedom of movement and
>..action
>[Peter says...] Okay, sooooo does that mean the 1 BILLION dollars General
>Motors is pumping into Hydrogen technology is because they are a trying to
>deprive you of you freedom of movement and action. Try Googling GM and
>Hydrogen.

This is chump change to GM. They know full well that the REAL gain in
vehicle efficiency, at least in urban vehicles, is going to come from
developing a viable system of regenerative braking (the ability to re-use
energy stored when slowing a vehicle down to re-accelerate it). Clearly,
electrical hybrids are one attractive way to accomplish this goal.

 If you are referring to me being an
>advocate of the "hydrogen economy" you are incorrect.

That one wasn't aimed at you.

 If anything I would
>like to see the system switch to electric vehicles and rapid transit. The
>rail system works in Europe... why not here?

Mostly because the demographics, culture, and lifestyle are entirely
different in most parts of this country.
>
>Greg is seems pretty obvious that you are upset with "greenies" or anyone
>with that mindset.

No, I simply think that the vast majority of 'greenies' are blithering
fools and/or idiots, much as the late, non-lamented 'better red than dead'
crowd were. My ANGER is with the extremely manipulative ersatz 'social
engineers' and politicians who develop the fodder that the poor fools feed
on, and who do so primarily in efforts to satisfy their personal lust for
power and prestige !!

It would be interesting to have a discussion with you
>about

 Gun control,

Is  best defined as the ability to put two bullets through the same hole
from at least 25 yards.

Beyond that, I would regard anyone foolish enough to think they have any
right to interfere with my natural right to keep and bear arms as no more
than a common thief, and a therefore as a problem to be dealt with
accordingly.

If you have read any Jefferson, you would understand that 'natural rights'
(and laws) flow to all of us from a much higher power than any government
can ever possess, and therefore supercede any governmental laws. If you
mistakenly think that this position is based in any sort of religious
belief, go read some MORE Jefferson----

"God forbid that we go twenty years without a revolution !" (Unfortunately,
we have !!!)

Nuclear power,

Surprisingly clean and reliable. Certainly less polluting than most other
sources. Would be most interesting to determine whether Halliburton and its
larger brother in the oil patch (Schlumberger) are the real sources of all
the money behind the anti-nuke movement !! :-)

 the dangers of tobacco,

vile stuff--which like many other equally vile and addictive 'substances'
should be freely available to anyone stupid enough to use them and
financially capable of paying for them at a generic price-- after all, the
enforcement mechanism for Darwin's law is FREE, and would take full effect
in far less time than the totally unsuccessful 'prohibition' approach has
taken !!!

"If you don't blow smoke on me, I won't spit on you !"

 or the right for
>Women to vote. Just kidding about the last one.

I think that all people who can demonstrate a reasonable level of learning,
knowlege of history and geography, and understanding of their nation's
political system should have the right to vote, regardless of gender, race,
etc. Literacy tests for voting were grossly mis-used in the past, at least
in the USofA , but I believe should be brought back. The current level of
pandering to barely functional idiots by a great many politicians reminds
me far too powerfully of the Roman 'bread and circuses' problem !!!
>
>The great thing is you have the right to your opinion, and you express it
>well; I agree with some of it and disagree with the rest, which too is my
>right.
>
Yes, it is.

Greg (I kept going, it's hardly as though this list has had a bandwidth
problem lately !!!)


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