[Diy_efi] Making a fake O2

Mon May 30 09:39:17 UTC 2005

    I agree.  I in no way wanted to start a street fight asking this
question.  It is possible for two people to have totally different
beliefs, and neither to be wrong.  Point of view is everything.  Can
we just have a civil conversation?  Let's not get carried away.  I
truly appreicate everyones input.  If you don't agree you can say
that....but let it lay there.

Thanks,

Marcello


> THis list has some members who are just way to stuck up to respond to
> things
> nicely. Seriously people how old are we all. Cant we deal with things
> properly without having to resort to sarcastic remarks and personal
> insults.
> Disagree with facts or speculation or opinion and not on the personal
> attributes of a person.....
>
> It feels like I am watching "House" when I listen to this list. Way to
> much
> sarcasm then I can deal with or should have to.
>
> On 5/29/05, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> At 11:53 AM 30/05/05, you wrote:
>> >Ah, so your experience is a global observation on everything...
>>
>> David, this is not *everything*, this is a specific technical list
>> where people are generally technical and that usually means
>> they have a background in high school physics, chemistry
>> and maths and move on to higher studies such as engineering,
>> masters or even a PhD...
>>
>> The side effect of any technical discipline is the huge benefit
>> this allows to rationalise most phenomena in combination with
>> industrial and commercial complexity as they all come back to
>> scaffolding upon the fundamentals of physics and chemistry...
>>
>> Engines are not that complex really, there are combinatorial
>> issues which are sometimes way beyond most people who
>> have never had the opportunity to get the basic groundwork
>> of physics and chemistry sorted out at an early point in their
>> development. Plus it helps to occasionally suspend personality
>> so one can launch into abstract notions with less limitation.
>>
>> There's also nothing wrong with enjoying a good hard nosed
>> technical speculation from time to time either ;-)
>>
>> >You must be a legend in your own mind!
>>
>> Do I hear knee jerk reaction from a battered ego...
>>
>> <chuckle>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org
>> >> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Adam Wade
>> >> Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 10:11 PM
>> >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Making a fake O2
>> >>
>> >> --- David Cooley <n5xmt at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > If your injectors are starting to have reduced flow due to
>> >> deposits,
>> >> > low fuel pressure etc, the stock maps are NOT going to be safe.
>> >>
>> >> Most Honda factory turbo motorcycles have never had their
>> >> injectors cleaned, and many are operating with fairly clogged
>> >> fuel filters. I've never seen nor heard of any engine
>> >> problem on ANY Honda turbo, for ANY reason. They run
>> >> open-loop, and have been in service since 1982.
>> >>
>> >> If turbocharged motorcycle engines can handle it, I daresay
>> >> normally-aspirated applications will be quite safe when
>> >> operated in open-loop without BLM, unless the maps themselves
>> >> are pretty horrible.
>> >>
>> >> > The O2 sensor is there to correct for changes in
>> >> airflow/fuel flow etc
>> >> > in the engine to keep the A/F where the manufacturer specified...
>> >>
>> >> No, the O2 sensor is to command a stoichiometric mixture
>> >> during low-load steady-state operation. One of the added
>> >> benefits that has come with that is the
>> >> (limited) ability for a manufacturer to partially compensate
>> >> for age via the use of BLM tables. Prior to the emissions
>> >> requirements that demanded a three-way catalyst and long-life
>> >> emissions components, there were no oxygen sensors used in
>> >> fuel injection.
>> >> And if it was really that advantageous, then every
>> >> fuel-injected motorcycle made in the past 10 years would have
>> >> an O2 sensor. You'll note that most of them don't, and the
>> >> ones that do only did so when the EMISSIONS requirements were
>> >> raised to the point where closed-loop running with a catalyst
>> >> was necessary.
>> >>
>> >> > If you take a vehicle that isn't brand new, and run it in open loop
>> >> > with no corrections, then yes, the open loop maps MAY cause damage.
>> >>
>> >> So all us motorcycle riders who got injected bikes without O2
>> >> sensors can sue the manufacturer for making self-destructing
>> >> engines? Cool!
>> >>
>> >> Frankly, since both open- and closed-loop running depend on
>> >> the same ingition tables, any fuel maps that would "damage"
>> >> an engine when it was older would also be very likely to
>> >> damage it when new. Further, think about where best-power
>> >> fuel mixture is, in terms of potential engine damage...
>> >>
>> >> Somehow, I am certain that those creating the fuel maps for
>> >> automotive OEs are not neary as horribly stupid as you're
>> >> saying they are.
>> >>
>> >> | 82 Honda CX500 Turbo (Cassandra) 90 Kwak Zephyr 550 (Daphne) | "It
>> >> | was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it |
>> >> | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. |
>> >> | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
>> >> | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun |
>> >> | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut |
>> >> | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com <http://Amazon.com> -
>> http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze |
>> >>
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>> >
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>> Regards from
>>
>>
>> Mike Massen
>> Perth, Western Australia
>> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
>> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Michael Stephens
>
> Electrical Engineering Student
> University of Wyoming
> http://students.uwyo.edu/falcon
> falcon at uwyo.edu or 89iroc at gmail.com
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